Review: IDW Makes A Triumphant Return To The Original Series In The Brilliant ‘Star Trek – Year Five’

Review: Star Trek – Year Five #1

Publisher: IDW Publishing

Written by: Jackson Lanzing and Collin Kelly

Art by: Stephen Thompson

Year 5 Issue 1 Cover

Cover by Greg Hildebrandt

Back in May, the U.S.S. Enterprise-heavy Star Trek: Discovery season 2 finale had fans clamoring for more of the beloved Constitution-class starship. While actors Anson Mount, Ethan Peck and Rebecca Romijn are returning to their roles as Pike, Spock, and Number One, respectively, in Short Treks, fans await any news of a potential series from CBS. But in the meantime, the team at IDW have cooked up something really special. Announced in January, Star Trek – Year Five is set – you guessed it – during the Enterprise’s final year in space – on its way back to Earth and before the events of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I know what you’re thinking. What about Year Four? Well, IDW tackled that way back in 2007.

What’s notable about Year Five is how IDW approached the series by treating it as if it were an actual show, complete with showrunners and a writers room. As we reported from this year’s Wondercon, co-showrunner Jackson Lanzing explains:

Star Trek: Year Five functions like a writers’ room. We are going to be rotating each couple of issues to tell stories about things that would operate as a single [episodes] and take you through a season of television. It will be a lot more serialized than The Original Series was, while still hearkening back to what the episode-by-episode storytelling that we love from TOS.

At this year’s Comic-Con, Lanzing explained the approach in more detail, outlining a two-year, 24 issue story arc, with every two-issues equaling one “episode.” That means 12 total episodes, with Lanzing and co-showrunner Collin Kelly writing 6 episodes, while the other 6 writers are rotating. This is a review of the first two-issue “episode.

Issue #1

Gripping from literally the FIRST PANEL of page one, Year Five begins with a shot of the Enterprise engulfed in flames. A battered, beaten, and defeated Kirk sits on the bridge, alone, save for a shadowed assailant pointing a phaser at the back of his head. Tunic torn, beads of sweat dripping down his face, Kirk records his final log entry, reciting the show’s opening monologue. It’s a downright chilling opening that had me immediately hooked. While we know how things end up and everyone’s fine physically, there are some significant gaps between when the series ended all the way through to TMP, in both timing and emotional baggage. Why is there a rift between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy? Where is David Marcus? What happened to the Iotians after McCoy left his communicator on Sigma Iotia II? Lanzing and Kelly are attempting to fill those gaps and have already planted the seeds of an absolute thrill ride of a series.

We’re then flashed back to the events that will eventually lead us to how we got here. The crew successfully attempts what Spock calls the “single most dangerous mission the Enterprise has ever undertaken.” The first thing I noticed is how big Stephen Thompson’s art makes this feel. Page two’s hero image of the Enterprise is one of the most beautiful I’ve ever seen in a Trek comic. His likenesses, for the most part, are spot on but even when they aren’t, the art is so breathtaking it doesn’t even matter. Aesthetically, you can tell that they storyboarded this as if they were going to shoot it because the angles in some panels are especially cinematic.

Spoiler alert – the mission was a success, as it always is. The Enterprise is on to its next mission but not before the crew has a chance to unwind. In a very TWOK-esque scene, Kirk and Bones should be celebrating, but in what will become typical Kirk fashion, he treats it like a funeral. He’s just received some news from Starfleet Command that will change his life forever. What unfolds over the next few pages is simply a beautiful character study into why he’s uncomfortable with his new promotion and questioning who he is.

The Enterprise’s first stop in Year Five is in response to a Tholian distress signal. They are too late and find that an entire Tholian colony has been wiped out by other their own people with some sort of new weapon. It’s an action-packed sequence and reveals new details about the mysterious species we hardly know anything about. In the end, Kirk discovers a lone survivor of the Tholian colony – a child. The decision he makes regarding the child is one that follows him throughout the two year run of Star Trek – Year Five.

Issue #2

Review: Star Trek – Year Five #2

Publisher: IDW Publishing

Written by: Jackson Lanzing and Collin Kelly

Art by: Stephen Thompson

Cover by Stephen Thompson

After rescuing a Tholian child from a massacred colony, Kirk beams it aboard the Enterprise and immediately to sickbay for observation. This enrages a Tholian ship orbiting the planet, accusing the Enterprise of kidnapping the child and demanding its return. To show that they mean business, the Tholian ship opens fire on the Enterprise with this new weapon, disintegrating 5 crew members in the process. Hearkening back to the gritty opening of issue #1, this is a pretty gruesome sight. Lanzing, Kelly, and artist Stephen Thompson aren’t pulling any punches.

In the true spirit of TOS, the Kirk, Spock, McCoy triumvirate meet to discuss their options. Kirk is convinced the Tholian Assembly are the ones who attacked their own colony, but McCoy and Spock plead with the captain to return the child. They believe he is acting irrationally and urge him to reconsider his position. It’s a wonderful scene and is a textbook interpretation of the Freudian Trio – the id, ego, and superego at work.

Meanwhile, the rest of the supporting cast gets a chance to shine. This is something else Lanzing and Kelly have been very clear about: We’re going to be seeing a lot more of these characters and I can’t wait. Since the Tholians took out the Enterprise computer, the rest of the bridge crew needs to come up with a game plan. Uhura suggests they take a page out of Kirk’s book and hack the no-win scenario. A meeting of the best minds in Starfleet without a computer results in them reverse-engineering the Tholian weapon to give them a taste of their own medicine.

After trying to communicate with the Tholian child, Kirk returns to the bridge and, while impressed with his genius crew, squashes the plan to fight fire with fire. Instead, they attempt to outsmart their opponents and grant the child Tholian survivor asylum by the United Federation of Planets.

From what has already been revealed about the series, Lanzing and Kelly are returning to some classic TOS episodes and villains. As mentioned earlier, while we’re going to eventually go back to Sigma Iotia II, another interesting nugget that came out of Comic-Con 2019 was a response to an audience question about Trek being a cultural reflection of the time in which it was written. Lanzing explains:

The point here is not to tell politically relevant stories from 1969, the point is to try to use excellent characters and timeless storytelling to try to tell politically relevant stories now that are just shaped through that lens. Year Five episode 1 has a lot more to do with the Gulf War and the War in Iraq and the way that we deal with foreign intervention as Americans. This is not a 1969 Star Trek, this is the last season of TOS being produced in 2019.

This episode has it all: mystery, action, emotion, humor, easter eggs, call-backs, and foreshadowing, just to name a few. It’s clear that the team behind Year Five is pulling out all the stops to ensure the series looks and feels like The Original Series and they’ve managed to do that right out of space dock. From Shatner’s line counting to McCoy-isms to Scotty’s weight gain, it’s all here. Star Trek – Year Five is brave, bold, and refreshing and manages to feel like a direct continuation of TOS. Lanzing and Kelly endeavored to create something special and so far I’d say it’s mission accomplished.


Keep up with all the latest inked Star Trek in TrekMovie’s Comics Category.

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This looks lovely but after 10 years of New Voyages and Continues I feel satisfied that although they are fan projects I’m happy the 5YM is done.

I’m looking forward to moving on with Picard etc

Dlope67

Have to agree, I’m happy to have well produced classic trek in comics, but I think a lot of classic Trek fans really appreciated the finale of Continues which brings the crew home and sets up TMP very nicely. (also looking forward to Picard!)

Who cares

Have to disagree. Never liked any Trek fan films to be honest, and even the ones touted as “the best” like World Enough & Time are just not good IMO.

Trek comics on the other hand have been the source of many of my favorite Trek stories.

gar535

Star Trek Continues puts all other “non-Paramount produced” films to shame – Eugene Roddenberry himself said his dad would be amazed by it, and proclaimed it to be canon. If you’ve never watched it, you’re cheating yourself out of amazing Trek.

Locutus

Star Trek Continues was a blast!

Wayne Alford

Agree I was happy with Continues end , fits my head canon just fine.

PEB

Doesn’t bother me to get more classic Trek but I will agree that Continues is a great series and really does feel like a true extension of the 60s tv series.

ST:EXP

I always wondered if you added up all the individual stories in all the decades of comics and novels… how many adventures has Kirk and crew been on? They would’ve needed a 50 year mission to have accomplished all the actual stories told…

Cmd.Bremmon

Damn you can never get enough TOS and that beautiful Constitution class cruiser. It’s amazing how any awesome TOS threads were never followed up on – who built the Doomsday Machine, the Guardian of Forever, the Tholian Web, how fragile the Federation with it’s 12 starships came off, etc. TOS has space travel being exciting, something the other shows really lack where it’s free everything with fantasy tech like something out of a fan film (the future – the Akira class has x1000000 QUANTUM torpedoes, goes warp factor 200 when you don’t just beam yourself across the galaxy, in a fleet of 100000 starships with the big surprise being everyone wondering why it all comes off as so damn boring.)

Danpaine

Very good point, I believe, Cmd. TOS really brought forth the sense they were out there practically alone in the abyss of space, with only fleeting contact with Starfleet, really ‘boldly going…’ To me, every series since has failed to capture that wide open sense of the unknown TOS exhibited.

flaming photon torpedo of truth

future astronauts aboard a starship charting a haunted universe of deeply strange often supernatural beings and visiting planets that harboured long dead civilisations. that eerie ‘twilight zone’ feeling of awe and dread that was absent for much of Trek that followed.

ML31

I agree… There is nothing like the original. Never really got into the comics or the fan films, however.

BTW… I never got the impression that the Star Fleet was “fragile” at all. Kirk just said there were “12 like her in the fleet”. I took that to mean there were 13 Constitution class star ships. That there were plenty more from other ship classes.

Cmd.Bremmon

You watch Journey to Babel and it looks like the Vulcans and the Andorians are ready to destroy each other. Also with the fact that the Enterprise is often “the only ship in the quadrant”, that the Enterprise is of the “STARSHIP CLASS”, and that the ship is pretty much the only ship available to head off the Klingon fleet and I very much feel like during TOS that there were 12 starships and everything else was pretty much supporting those ships (and starbases). This is very similar to the US Navy when first launched, Congress authorizing I think six frigates (including the Constitution). This was way WAY more exciting I think then being on one of 10000 starships all over the place and makes warp engines a rare hard to build technological miracle.

Daniel

Trek certainly lost a lot when they made it too easy to call home for help. If I could do TMP all over again, I would have our crew in deep space and never, ever see or talk to Earth.

Tiger2

That is the weird thing about most of the Trek movies minus Generations, Insurrection and Beyond because all the others were so Earth based. The other movies either started on Earth or its main conflict directly dealt with Earth. Why I didn’t love the Kelvin movies that much. They revolved too much around Earth when they should be exploring space more. At least TOS and TNG already had full on shows so they had done plenty of exploring already. But the Kelvin movies ONLY had the films to fall on and exploration felt like it took a major back seat. It took Beyond for it to finally get there but too little too late I guess.

I think executives got it in their heads its harder to get non-fans into the movies unless they know something familiar from the top. But Star Wars never had that problem, so…

Tiger2

Going to be curious to see your thoughts of Discovery being in the 32nd century Cmd Bremmon lol. I imagine by then, spore drives will be part of every home. ;)

And they did try this idea again post-TOS with this little show called Enterprise. That show is really what you are describing, everything from hardly any ships in space (that was the only ship Starfleet had that could do warp five) to the nasty conflicts between the Andorians and Vulcans. TOS just scratched the surface. Enterprise was the one that gave it real life and a mythology. Unfortunately not enough people cared about the show.

They may do a show like this again, but clearly not for a few years with DIS, Picard and Lower Decks all post Nemesis, Discovery more post than all of them now.

Cmd.Bremmon

I think 32nd century will be a bust and we will all be missing seeing Captain Pike and Number One honestly. You’ll see either two things are going got happen a) the Federation will be portrayed as super uber perfect where we beam across the galaxy and all the aliens love LOVE the Federation except for the Borg or some new alien which is just another Dominion which was done before. Viewers will find out that Andromeda is a lot like the Milky Way Galaxy only you didn’t have to risk life and limb to get there and everyone there is insignificant compared to our super Akira class in a fleet of a million ships with 2000 Quantum torpedo launchers. b) the Federation will have devolved into a bunch of supremacist and fractured to suit the politics of the day. Yep, all of Star Trek lead to space Nazis. To REALLY make the 31st century work I think you need to go cerebral (the story of how we decided to either become the Q or deliberately not become the Q) which would make an ok mini series but be boring in the long run OR the Federation is like TNG writers, they don’t explore anymore because they’ve made it so boring and the Federation as the ultimate socialist entity is like the Borg. The story is a bunch of rebels who ignore the macro and decide to head out on their own and rekindle Wagon Train to the Stars – with the rest of society mocking them and their old ships. This won’t happen due to politics.
ENTERPRISE sucked because it ended up TNG. It wasn’t Earth rebuilding after World War 3, a primitive Earth trying to prove it has a place in the galaxy – a middle ground with imagination between high tech super smart Vulcans and emotional Andorians, a single Starship representing all of humanity cut off from Earth where the Captain’s decisions good or bad would have consequences centuries later, where the crew had no idea what it was doing and screwed up often, where the Romulans try to invade and first contact with the Klingons is a disaster of epic proportions, where not having the Prime Directive costs millions of lives, having to use only shuttles, machine guns and nuclear weapons where you can’t just stun the bad guys and beam home. ENT was the greatest missed opportunity in Trek. Why they couldn’t even have conflict with the Klingons for a minute into the show.

Tiger2

Personally I’m super excited about the show going into the 32nd century. They can now just do what they want which they were already doing lol. But now there will be less whining about it. But yes it can still be a bust. We’ll see but excited to see how the future will look at least.

As for TOS, I don’t know I never really cared about the ship being alone in space and all of that. Mainly because it didn’t really matter. No matter what the ship and crew were Ok at the end, crisis solved and moved on to the next planet. There was never any long term consequences. Kirk kicked alien butt, make a speech about how they can be better as a society and roll credits. But that’s most of Star Trek and shows like Voyager was critized for because it was literally alone but little problem surviving.

In TOS case if it ever got bad they could still return home any time. The ship always operated fine. Like Voyager every week it was good as new although they were ‘alone’. And it was still supposed to be a super advanced ship. So I never saw it as a big deal. And I think it was mostly done for budgetary reasons and they couldn’t show more ships and bigger fleets like all the other shows could. So the ship was more alone to simply cut down on costs just like most of the aliens looking human save for pointed ears or different color time.

And it never made any sense to me Starfleet is over a century old but only 12 ships lol. Huh?? What industry is there on Earth today that is a century old but only have 12 of anything??! That’s just not reality. You mentioned the Navy and a small fleet of ships but that was at the start. Look how many it had just a century later? That’s where Starfleet should be at 100 years later too. Again you’re describing Enterprise where it was at the start of it’s mission. Yes it could’ve been better but it made sense to be that small. TOS didn’t and why it’s been retcon since the films.

And TOS just really didn’t think things through like later Trek shows did. It’s obvious on TOS they were supposed to be exploring the entire Galaxy. That’s why they were alone so much lol. But it really makes no sense. You are on the other side of the galaxy hanging out with just a few ships when the Klingons can invade Earth at any moment? And look how freaking fast they zipped around. The first episode literally had them going to the center of the galaxy lol. But it was also the 60s, people weren’t sophisticated about how big and vast the galaxy is like today

But so much of how TOS and Starfleet worked was very very fuzzy. I don’t try to over think it because I know they were just making it up week to week unlike the other shows but yeah.

I know not everyone loves Discovery but it does set the size of Starfleet era in 23rd century at a realistic organization, especially being involved with a major war. Thousands of ships just make more sense. But yes it does feel too advanced for the era but again probably more realistic than what TOS portrayed. But also due to 50 years of our own advancement as well.

Tiger2

I meant the first episode (Where NO Man Has Gone Before) had them leaving the galaxy altogether. I got it mixed up with Star Trek V where they went to the center of it.

wi-kiry-lan

In response to the below quoted text – The United States Navy has roughly a dozen aircraft carriers.

“And it never made any sense to me Starfleet is over a century old but only 12 ships lol. Huh?? What industry is there on Earth today that is a century old but only have 12 of anything??! That’s just not reality. “

Tiger2

I stand corrected! :)

Danpaine

I’m looking forward to the SHIP going into the 32nd century, but I’m not terribly thrilled to revisit the actual crew of Discovery there. Only Saru, Stamets and perhaps Detmer I find interesting, and imo if the writing doesn’t improve from the last two seasons, I’ll be tuning out again. The Burnham Show hit me in all the wrong places.

Tiger2

I hear you Danpaine.

I don’t mind most of the crew but the new setting itself excites me more than who is actually still on the ship save for a few of them.

And they could’ve left Georgiou in the 23rd century for sure. I doubt anyone here would miss her.

Tiger2

And Discovery retcon the whole 12 starships thing. According to that show, there are 7000 starfleet vessels by the 23rd century which honestly makes more sense. The 12 starship thing makes NO sense when you have not one but two major space villains to keep control of while constantly patrolling Federation space at the same time.

Cmd.Bremmon

That’s utter nonsense. Does the US Navy have 7000 aircraft carriers? No, why? Because aircraft carriers are super expensive, super hard to build and operate and nuclear reactors take years and billions to build. The early US Navy when exploring the world was like 6 frigates. During the war of Independence John Paul Jones had to use a French ship to attack the UK (the Bonhomme Richard). When the US went to war against Tripoli the Constitution and her sister ships represented the entire country. Just think there was a time where one Captain had to represent the entire United States where it took months to hear back from Washington! Why do we care so much for Louis and Clark and the exploration corps, because there 2 people and their ‘crew’ ended up representing the entire United States on a mission of exploration. What’s more exciting, watching 1/7000 starships representing Starfleet or 1/12 where you lose that ship, you lose the sector?
You see, TNG has made you anti-science where you think FTL is going to be a piece of cake, where we will roll these massive starships off an assembly line on Earth, where we will always be in communication all the time. The truth is that it will take years to build, we’ll be lucky to get one or two out and it will take 100s of years for the ships (probably seedships or generation ships) powered by the detonation of pulsed pure-fusion devices to get anywhere… and should that ship meet anyone that one ship will represent all humanity.

Tiger2

Well the answer to your first question is because the Navy doesn’t need 7000 aircraft carriers lol. Earth is not that big at the end of the day. We can circle the entire planet in less than a day by plane.

THE GALAXY however is really really big! So big they had to make up warp drive to explain how we can even get to most nearby planets, much less build enough starships to see more than 1% of the universe in the next

And dude stop with the silly TNG rant. I hate to break it to you but TOS is what suggested that FTL is a piece of cake if you can be on one side of the galaxy last week but then somehow be back in Federation space the next.

If anything the later shows made the galaxy feel bigger again and why you can’t just get to the center of the galaxy in a day anymore lol. But TOS did that all the time. And frankly it’s the only way you CAN do it if you somehow buy a hundred year old agency only had 12 ships and therefore can be in so many places. Don’t you also think it’s weird we only have a few ships and resources but yet have so many Earth colonies. And seem to populate vast regions of the galaxy. Every other week Kirk is stopping in a colony. How are there so many and how do you maintain them when you only have a dozen ships to make the rounds?

None of it made sense to me. You just shrug and tell yourself it was a TV show from the 60s. They just didn’t think that hard about it.

And last time I check Louis and Clark didn’t have transporters or the ability to time travel lol.

This is what I never understand with some fans. They treat these shows like some realistic portayel of space exploration in the future. You can’t compare it to real exploration because it’s not. It’s all just science fiction with creative writers. TOS was simply little less fantastic than the other shows because it was older. It’s still no less nutty how it portrays space travel though unless you really think we are going to discover a parallel universe of our evil selves.

But that’s the difference between me and you. I don’t pretend Star Trek is anything more than sci fi Hokum. Just really interesting hokum. I’m pretty sure though real exploration will be nothing like we see in TOS or TNG. It’s just fun imagining the possibilities.

The show can have 10 ships or 10,000. None of it is realistic in terms of future space travel. We’re not going to meet Klingon type races anymore than we will meet the Q. It’s all the same silliness. It’s only what you personally enjoy more that matters.

Cmd.Bremmon

“Well the answer to your first question is because the Navy doesn’t need 7000 aircraft carriers”…..
You really think China doesn’t have 1000 aircraft carriers not because they cost billions and are high tech because they don’t “need” them?!?
Why they can just replicate them if they needed them! Brilliant!

Tiger2

It could be both man. Not just one or the other. Again, who needs thousands of aircraft when you have already have planes that can circle the globe lol. Its not the same thing.

ML31

The “only ship in the quadrant” thing is a trope. Those delegates were edgy over what was made out to be a highly charged debate. Such things happen today. They had to have more than the Constitution Class out there. It makes no sense to use 1/3 of your entire fleet just to test out the M-5 computer.

Anyway, if I were to beef about TOS it would be the fact that they were in deep space one week, then at Starbase 12 the next. I just chalked that up to the episodic nature of the show and didn’t consider it a big deal.

Tiger2

Exactly it makes no sense lol!

How can you be out there alone at the edge of space but then somehow show up to confront Klingons the next week? How do you have so few ships spread out over the galaxy but yet they are tending to Federation duties week after week? Are they really out there ‘alone’ exploring vast new areas of space or are they really just in Federation space tending to Starfleet business?

According to TOS they were doing both which makes no sense to me. Because you can’t be in some unknown area of space one week but then deliver supplies to some Earth colony a week later. It makes the galaxy feel super small. If you are close enough to find a starbase within a few days then clearly they are not that alone. Also why send out their most advanced ships outside the Federation when you have so few of them and you have Klingons right at your door?

Honestly whoever wrote that 12 starship thing was probably a case of not really taking into account the enormous size of the galaxy or how old Starfleet was actually supposed to be. Perfect proof they were just making it up as they went.

And that’s fine. I’m guessing no one really thought anyone would be watching it 50 years later.

And it’s not a big deal. It was just a show written for it’s time. And Roddenberry probably imagined a huge fleet or why have a Starfleet in the first place? And also why is it both an explanation AND military arm? To me that suggest an organization with immense power and reach. They just didn’t have the power to show it until TNG came along.

ML31

My head canon was that the Constitution class was designed for both exploration AND military use. They were multifunctional which was why it would make sense to send them out to the frontier. But I also suspected there were star fleet science vessels as well as ones devoted to defense. Especially so since the star fleet was supposedly both. Not 100% exploratory and not 100% military. It was some sort of weird mixture that I guess worked by the 23rd century.

And again, I can buy that there were only 12 or 13 Constitution Class Star Ships. That does not mean there were no other ships in Star Fleet. That assumption I always felt was ludicrous.

Tiger2

We agree. I can buy there are only 12 Constitution class ships but clearly there was supposed to be hundreds more. Not as many as Discovery suggested but more.

If not why is there a special name for the design of the ship if it’s only one?

Cmd.Bremmon

#1) The Enterprise plaque reads “Starship class”…
#2) Check out the Starfleet Technical Manual at the time. Sure there are destroyers for simple border patrol and some scouts but at the end of the day many thought that there were 12 heavy cruisers at the time that did most of the work and most of the representation for Starfleet… (and that a ‘Dreadnought’ would end up the flagship of the whole fleet).

This was before Star Wars had hyperdrives on every little craft and starships could be replicated of course.

ML31

There are a lot of little things in TOS that didn’t survive scrutiny. Might as well mention the United Earth Space Service or whatever it was. By the time the show ended there were certain things that stuck. And that is what became the lore.

TG47

Joining this discussion late, but would like to weigh in with Tiger2 and ML31.

Wow, while I’m a fan of the various technical manuals across the eras, I take them as insight to some of the thoughts behind the scenes and never canon.

At any rate, my childhood head canon was that because saw models/images of some other old ship types, the starship ‘class’ would be generic (like heavy cruiser) while the Enterprise was one of a relatively small number or multitasked explorers.

On the number of total warp capable ships, Roddenberry acknowledged in later films, is that writers modeling on naval warfare often forget to consider 3-space.

It would take a lot of ships to cover the Federations volume, even if they stick close to the galactic plane.

And so it wasn’t surprising that the earliest Starfleet licenced board games such as Starfleet Battles had a plethora of ships and ship types.

Tiger2

Agree completely TG47!

That makes a lot more sense too. The universe and the galaxy in general is just too vast to have a dozen ships, but yes maybe we only saw the Constitution class which were explorer ships, but only one class out of many.

Jai

“It would take a lot of ships to cover the Federations volume, even if they stick close to the galactic plane.”

Exactly right. Realistically, Starfleet would need tens of thousands of armed starships to be able to successfully defend a territory that size. Consider the 1000+ formal member worlds of the Federation (presumably many more by the 25th century), the trillions of Federation citizens, and — given what we now know about the real-life galaxy — the huge number of star systems that would exist within the Federation’s borders. That’s a *lot* to defend.

One of the things about Star Wars that’s always struck me as unrealistic is that the Imperial and Rebel fleets in the films seem far too small for a civilisation that spans an entire galaxy. But unlike Trek, SW is not meant to be realistic anyway ;)

ML31

One thing for the Star Wars universe is that it felt very much like the further away from the center (I guess Curasant) the less the area is touched by the republic. I got the feeling that the outer rim was very close to the old west.

Tiger2

1. Which was retcon to Constitution class ships and my point that they basically just made it up and/or changed it as they went. Wasn’t Starfleet also called Space Command at the beginning too?

2. I don’t doubt your point. My point is its still pretty silly to have only 12 ships from an agency that is centuries old and why its been retconned in both the Kelvin movies and Discovery. It just makes no sense for all the reasons that were pointed out. That and the fact the TOS movies basically made it clear the fleet was in fact bigger when we finally saw different (and more advanced) class of ships like the Excelsior. I mean this isn’t rocket science, TOS was a very budgeted show so they could only show so much. Once they had more money and time in the films then we eventually saw a bigger fleet even if still limited of what we saw. Even in TNG we never truly saw a huge fleet of ships on screen.

That didn’t happen until DS9 and the Dominion war came and CGI was becoming more common on TV. My guess is we would’ve saw big fleet of ships if TOS had anything close to the budget and effects of that show. But they just made do of what they had.

Cmd.Bremmon

That’s all reasons why Trek stories centuries after centuries after founding the Federation will never be as exciting as Wagon Train to the Stars early explorers. Dare we compare any Trek battle scene to Star Trek II, Balance of Terror or even Star Trek VI where the fate of the entire Federation depends on one massive ship vs. one massive ship. And the reason is that TV can only follow one crew. Throw in 1000 ships and it might as well be a bunch of fighters for all anyone cares. Watch DS9 and note no real strategy can be seen, all you can do is just show a bunch of ships firing phasers nonsensically despite all the millions of quantum torpedoes. And all that forget that fact that a single starship armed with a bunch of MIRV nukes would in reality be able to bombard a planet and kill billions… I’m just saying some writers like some action, adventure and drama with some heroes making due with limited resources… then there are the Berman Trek types which well, zzz……

Tiger2

Just have to agree to disagree. I love ALL Star Trek and I’m more excited to see the franchise go forward and why I’m actually excited for Picard, Lower Decks and now Discovery. Clearly they heard the fanbase saying less prequels and expanding the franchise again. And I don’t watch Star Trek just for battles. You seem way too hung up on those stories. Season 1 of Discovery proves just having space battles doesn’t make it an exciting show if the story itself is still too hollow. In fact if you look at some of the top Trek episodes they aren’t just battles. They are more thoughtful stories like The Inner Light, The Visitor, City on the Edge of Forever, In the Pale Moonlight, Measure of a Man, etc that I really enjoy the most. And guess what, most of those stories barely has one starship involved, much less a thousand of them. Star Trek goes much deeper than just firing phasers every week.

And dude you sill have 80 episodes of TOS, six films and tons of fan films. Have at it! I’m excited to see the next generation of Trek stories in new eras and see where it all goes. I haven’t been this excited for Trek since the 90s, easily my favorite era.

Cmd. bremmon

Disagree. When the Romulans attacked it was one starship destroying all the border outposts stopped by one ship (Enterprise). When the Klingons prepared to invade Organia the Fédération could spare one ship (Enterprise). When Vger in TMP was on course for Earth, you had one ship ready to go. In Star Trek III you see like three starships at Earth and all the fleet could spare for Genesis was an ineffective science vessel.
Makes sense if starships are big powerful and fast and expensive that it’s all you can afford. Unfortunately that was all left behind in favor of anti science, anti economics , anti action, anti drama TNG.

Tiger2

Dude even on TNG its usually just one ship battling another lol. Even AFTER Discovery told you they had 7,000 ships in the fleet, how many ships did we see Section 31 fight in the season 2 finale? Two (but with a million drones ;)). Yeah its done for drama sakes. Every Trek show does this. This isn’t exactly a TOS trope, but a Star Trek one.

Cmd. bremmon

Star Trek due to the medium will always be limited to following at most a crew of six. Now what’s more epic – watching the crew when the ship is rare, powerful and expensive and “the only ship in the quadrant” where they lose the ship and half the quadrant has to learn Klingonese or 1/100000 ships that whenever confronted with a dilemma phone home or call in more ships? Watch Master and Commander … it’s about frigates but replace the vessel with starships and you’d have a better Trek movie than any TNG anything.

Danpaine

Master and Commander, absolutely fantastic film. And good point. As Russell Crowe’s character said to the crew, “This ship IS England.” There was no back-up.

Tiger2

I’m saying it doesn’t matter because nearly every Trek show and film with the exception of DS9 most ships end up fighting alone regardless. The Enterprise faced a Borg cube four separate times throughout the series. The only time we saw ‘back up’ was the battle over Earth in First Contact. They did almost join the fight at Wolf 359 but yeah they got there late, luckily for them. ;)

You have such a narrow view of this show, and usually it comes off inaccurate to prop up TOS. Point is Star Trek has never been Star Wars with hundreds of ships fighting until the Dominion War. But it doesn’t mean just because you don’t see other ships they aren’t there either. The Kelvin films ALSO portray a massive and super advanced Starfleet. And yet all three films it’s always the Enterprise facing off the big bad foe alone. This is just how Star Trek operates most of the time.

And you have to face reality Discovery has retcon TOS. Even if you believe a centuries old organization that both explored and protected an expansive Federation with just 12 measly ships, Discovery has made it very clear that was never the case. Starfleet in the 23rd century is just as big, advanced and powerful as Starfleet in the 24th century. And no one has spore drives in the 24th century that can get them from Earth to the Klingon neutral zone in seconds via the mycelium network.

Exactly why I never been a huge fan of prequels but it’s been made pretty clear Starfleet had massive power, tech and reach in this era. Probably TOO much reach considering how powerful they made Section 31, which was never this powerful in the 24th century amongst other things as noted.

ML31

Well, The Romulans attacking the outpost was one ship because they needed to be very stealthy. And they had a cloak. So they would not need more. Kirk could have waited and called for reinforcements but decided he had to act right away instead. In Errand of Mercy the Enterprise was forced to leave when the Klingons reappeared. They only came back later, in force. In TMP, they went with the “only ship” thing which again, is a trope to force our gang to be the ones to go. In TSFS there was no reason for anything BUT a singular science vessel to be at Genesis. That was not a military operation. They didn’t need a Connie for that. So dispatched one of the ships specifically geared for scientific study that had minimal defenses.

I’m not a huge fan of TNG but even I think you are being a little harsh towards it.

Tiger2

Exactly! And in fact every TNG film also showed the Enterprise exploring or fighting alone. And here is more fun trivia, in the TNG films the ONLY time you even saw the Enterprise in the same scene with another Starfleet ship was in the first 10 minutes of First Contact fighting the Borg. That’s literally it. There is not a single scene in any of those films the ship has gotten back up from Starfleet.

Ironically the only assistance it did get was help from the Romulans in Nemesis. At least in TUC Sulu shows up to help out Kirk.

Look I get it everyone has their favorite show in the franchise and consider it more ‘special’ than the others. And TOS will always have that nostalgia angle for some, especially older fans who started watching it in the 60s, 70s or 80s when it was the only Trek show around.

But having rose colored glasses on all the time while you INACCURATELY pretend it was the only show to portray certain tropes (especially when you have 700 hours of Star Trek to prove that simply wasn’t the case at all) just kills your credibility. I certainly agree TOS had a more isolated vibe than the others but I never got the idea it was just a handful of ships either. And as you pointed out they HAVE called for back up in the past, like every Trek show has done. It’s just more exciting to see the ships (or station) face a crisis on its own. This is a Star Trek tradition.

But like I said most of how TOS operated was simply due to budget and time reasons. From the movies through today the 23rd century has been portrayed as a big fleet even if most of the time the ships operate on their own.

And that’s clearly for dramatic reasons. It’s literally why they are throwing Discovery a thousand years into the future so it CAN feel alone. And oddly why I’m so excited about that show now.

Cmd. bremmon

That’s the whole point – in TNG and after where there should be thousands of starships that can be replicated in a second and the Federation has a quarter of the galaxy under it’s control it never makes sense that all we see is one irrelevant ship… that’s why it all sucks vs the early Federation just getting started in a little corner of the Galaxy where it’s one starship in the unknown.

Tiger2

No one can replicate starships in the 24th century lol. The Mars ship yards are there for a reason. You’re confusing it with probably the 32nd century. ;D

Starfleet has 7,000+ ships in the 23rd century. It’s canon dude. It’s canon. And one lone ship was Enterprise in the 22nd century. A century later, MANY MANY more (7,000). How many times does this has to be said?

Cmd. bremmon

“Starfleet has 7,000+ ships in the 23rd century. It’s canon dude. It’s canon. And one lone ship was Enterprise in the 22nd century. A century later, MANY MANY more (7,000). How many times does this has to be said?”
This was a huge nonsensical mistake which takes away from the fun of TOS. Even TNG why at Wolf 359 could they only get 50 ships when centuries earlier they had 7000. And how much will they have in the 33rd century. 70000? 70 million? It’s all a boring blur now, corrected I suppose by no need for starships since you can equally be as lame as TNG and beam across the galaxy.

Disinvited

Cmd. bremmon,

Re: no need for starships

One man beaming in with an advanced weapon, even if it IS Khan, is NOT going to be able to take out an attacking armada. Ships might not be needed for the locomotion to get there but they are still going to be needed to serve as, if for nothing else, weapons platforms in coordinated attacks.

However, for me, with the introduction of the portable transwarp transporter, they haven’t eliminated the need for ships, per se, so much as replaced the need for stardrive engines in them with large internal transwarp transporters capable of transporting the entire ship anywhere in the galaxy.

Tiger2

No it just makes sense to me. To many people actually. Maybe 7,000 thousands ships seems like a lot but 12 makes no logical sense on its head lol. Never did. I always thought there were at least a few hundred ships.

I don’t really get your obsession with stuff like this. End of the day if you like the show and how it worked what does it matter if it was 10 ships or 10,000? It didn’t take away from the drama. This is all fiction. But you don’t seem to get just how big the galaxy is. In TOS itself, they claimed there are millions of planets that supports life in our galaxy alone. You think 7,000 ships is a lot when you compare not only the vast amount of places to explore but all the crazy distances to explore them? Twelve is just ridiculously infeasible lol. That makes zero sense, especially according to how much of the galaxy has been explored and colonized. This says it all:

“By 2267, there were Humans on a thousand planets in the galaxy. (TOS: “Metamorphosis”) Between 2064 and 2364, Humans had charted 11% of the galaxy. (TNG: “Where No One Has Gone Before”) Within a year, the Federation had charted an additional 8% of the galaxy. (TNG: “The Dauphin”)”

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Milky_Way_Galaxy

How do you have humans on a THOUSAND planets and explored 11% of the galaxy in 400 years with just a handful of starships? You know how big 11% of the galaxy is? It’s estimated there are around 400 billion stars in our galaxy now which means Starfleet has managed to find and map over a hundred billion of them by the 24th century. And notice it says HUMANS charted 11%, not the Federation which means Starfleet has managed to do all of that on their own. Obviously I don’t suspect they were all found through starships but clearly millions have been found via starships because only starships are warp capable to find so many in that time.

Again how do you maintain thousand of human colonies with so few ships NOT to mention the rest of the Federation which also has thousands of other inhabited planets. And of course that doesn’t count all the other planets you are finding for the first time? Clearly you would have to have a huge fleet to maintain something this big all through the Federation. It would have to be thousands of ships in reality. And if you have the resources to put humans on a thousand planets across the galaxy, then surely you have the resources and capability to build more than 12 starships lol.

And as Disinvited said, even with portable transwarp transporter technology like the Kelvin universe has, you still need Starships, biggest reason, to know WHERE you are going. You can’t just beam to a new planet if its never been charted. It’s even the same with Discovery and the spore drive. It may be more convenient to get to a place but you will have to find planets the old fashion way by exploring and finding them and that takes time.

I find it funny how you seem to deem TOS as ‘realistic’ space travel, but then you seriously undermine exactly the kind of manpower you would need to explore even a sliver of the galaxy that they have done according to the show.

Tiger2

Oops sorry, I meant that they would have explored around 40 billion stars by the 24th century, not 100 billion.

Tiger2

And no one can ‘beam across the galaxy’ in TNG. You are getting it confused with the Kelvin movies that did that with transwarp beaming which Spock said was first invented by Scotty. Dude, your weird bias against TNG seems to confuse you with other shows and films that has presented these ideas. When it comes to getting across the galaxy in mere seconds that belongs to the Kelvin movies and Discovery. And yes both 23rd century based properties lol.

You do realize in Discovery they have not only made the idea of shooting over 50,000 light years in a few seconds canon thanks to the spore drive (it took Voyager about 5 years to get halfway to that point) but they also invented a suit that can transport hundreds of people in the same distance via Section 31’s time travel suit.

Face it man, the 23rd century has become more advanced than the 24th century thanks to Kurtzman and company.

Cmd.Bremmon

Those facts are exactly why any series where the Federation is a quarter to half the galaxy is ultimately boring (and in the 40th century the entire galaxy?). You do need 1000000 ships or the ability to beam in order to get that into a TV show; all of which takes away from the drama surrounding a starship in space. Everything after the 24th century is a billion, billion, thousand everything with free energy and the Federation being a thousand races all in a boring blur. It is way WAY more fun to have it where the Federation is a 10-20 light years across and growing and it takes months if not years to get to the Klingon home world and 90% of the galaxy remains unexplored. That’s where the excitement in Star Trek TOS was.. early colonies on the frontier depending on the Enterprise and her sister ships where every first contact or war was the Enterprise representing all of the Federation because they have no ability to call up the UFP President and capital starships were a rare and valuable commodity. There is a reason why the Federation races in TOS – Vulcan, Andor, Telar and Earth from TOS are more interesting and exciting than a Federation with 10000 members going warp 9.99999999999 x 10^-100000 with their 10000 starships. As Trek actually writes the original Star Trek pitch and story guide out of canon it will eventually leave itself open to be replaced by a “Wagon Train to the Stars” to fill the gap.

Tiger2

Don’t know what to tell you. Starfleet employing thousands of ships is all canon now thanks to Discovery. Most people don’t have an issue with it because its more realistic if you have ships doing everything from maintaining colonies to finding new worlds and protecting the Federation. And its not more fun to me to pretend 10 ships protect thousands of planets. More like ridiculous lol. Discovery has more Section 31 ships (around 30) alone than what you are suggesting TOS had.

I’ll say it again, Discovery has made it clear the Federation is as big and advanced as the 24th century (in some ways more). Unless you are suggesting Discovery is not canon? And there are a few people who feel that way lol. Maybe they should’ve called you and got your opinion about this first, but they didn’t. You just have to accept it and move on now.

Cmd. bremmon

So when I’m Balance of Terror the Romulans attack and destroy half the border outposts and only one ship shows up out of 7000…. or the Doomsday machine is on its way to Earth and only 1 out of 7000 starships or TMP where Vger goes all the way across the Federation from Klingon space and only 1/7000 ships are in intercept range you think 7000 ships makes sense??

ML31

It dose when one considers how vast space really is. Further, the BoT thing has already been explained. A similar explanation was given for the Doomsday Machine. Spock wanted to retreat to gather a force as “A single ship cannot combat it.” But Decker had other plans.

Tiger2

Exactly ML31!

How many times does this has to be said, the galaxy is HUGE! 7,000 ships sounds like a lot, but its a drop in the ocean when you consider the BILLIONS of stars just in alpha quadrant alone. Billions with a B. I don’t understand why this is so hard to comprehend? As said, EVERY show we see ships usually alone (Voyager for obvious reasons) because the Federation is a big place and they are spread out everywhere. The Enterprise D encountered the Borg, Romulans and Cardassians alone just as much as Kirk ship did regardless how many ships are operating in Starfleet. Because the Milky Way galaxy is estimated to be made up of 10s of billions of solar systems. Let that sink in. Its not a shock these ships are going to be on their own most of the time when you think about the vast distances and the staggering number of planets. There is just too much space out there.

Tiger2

And I bought this up (which was ignored) but in TOS time, they already had a thousand human colonies. How do you have a THOUSAND colonies but just a dozen ships to maintain them? Because you don’t. That says nothing of the hundreds of planets they found with life already on it.

This is just common sense. Starfleet had to be pretty robust to maintain all those colonies while finding new alien life practically every week WHILE also protecting themselves against the Klingons and Romulans. Starfleet is over 100 year old at this point, they were probably building around a 100 ships a year after the Romulan War and how they managed to build so many colonies in that time as well.

Starfleet was not some small little engine that could in the 23rd century. TOS was simply a smaller budgeted TV show that could only show so much. Now with stuff like Discovery and the Kelvin movies, they can finally show a highly advanced and very resourceful Starfleet. The Yorktown starbase made clear just how technologically advanced and big the Federation was in this period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZTnSxW4pOI

But we’re suppose to somehow believe Starfleet got by with 12 measly ships lol.

Cmd.Bremmon

“And I bought this up (which was ignored) but in TOS time, they already had a thousand human colonies”
1000 human colonies?!?!? We saw pretty rugged mining outposts with populations of less than a hundred each and at best a couple starbases. The entire UFP appeared to be 5 homeworlds, Earth, Vulcan, Andora, Vulcan and Tellar all which seemed to be pretty close. And even then at the Babel conference not even those worlds seem the best of friends.
It was only TNG where they are like oh, the Federation has 150 members and is an entire quadrant of the galaxy.
You see your TNGing TOS where everything is in the thousands… and everything in the thousands is pretty bland.
In the TOS writers guide it was even thought TOS could be occurring in the 1990s so ‘early’ was the exploration supposed to be. That’s why Roddenberry used to talk “Wagon Train to the Stars” as in this is a cruiser with are some of the first settlers going into space.

Tiger2

“1000 human colonies?!?!? We saw pretty rugged mining outposts with populations of less than a hundred each and at best a couple starbases.”

First off as been said over and over again, it was a low budgeted TV show, they could only show so much at the time like all TV shows. But it was a thousand colonies. That was stated in Metamorphosis, which I quoted. Kirk stated it directly they had inhabited a thousand planets and was growing. Watch the episode if you can’t trust the internet. ;)

And when you have a thousand colonies to support you still need more than 12 ships to do it with. We live on Earth with about 200 countries and just 7 continents. But can you imagine trying to move around or support the entire planet with just 12 planes? Or 12 cargo ships? Or 12 trains? That’s what you’re basically suggesting and why its utterly unrealistic.

In this case, you just have to use common sense. You have to look at it from a real world perspective, especially when that perspective is translated to something the size of a galaxy. It just wouldn’t work.

And I’m not ‘TNGing’ anything man (sigh). I’m simply following the canon that has been created for decades now. It has nothing to do with one show or the other. TOS doesn’t live in a bubble anymore. It only lasted for 3 seasons but there has now been 27 additional seasons of Star Trek (and counting) along with all the films. Every shows has added canon from TNG to Discovery. That’s just how it works and why we now know how truly big Starfleet is in 23rd century is thanks to Discovery. Again you can personally avoid any canon you want. Its still just fiction at the end of the day. But its still canon regardless. And stop blaming everything on TNG. That show didn’t say how many ships existed in the 23rd century, Discovery did.

And that is what is so annoying about your posts. You not only seem to want to dismiss anything that goes against your personal view of TOS but then you inaccurately state things about the TNG era over and over again. The Federation is not entire quadrant of the galaxy. Yes a big portion for sure but there are a lot of other factions and empires in the alpha quadrant as well, from Cardassia to the Tholians. It doesn’t own the alpha quadrant. If it did, we wouldn’t have had issues like the Maquis colonists uprising.

But yes with the destruction of Romulus and the effects of the Dominion War, we don’t know how much that has shifted power to the Federation in the last few years. I guess we’ll start to find out with Picard and maybe even with Lower Decks next year.

And Wagon Train to The Stars was a marketing tactic he used to sell the show to the network to try to appeal to executives who at the time still didn’t take science fiction shows seriously and where westerns were still king on television. It’s a great line for sure but I wouldn’t over think it.

Look I’ll say this one.last.time. Starfleet is big, robust and advanced in the 23rd century. How could you watch Discovery and not think anything less lol. Are we not watching the same show? Their version of Section 31 is the most advanced and influential its ever been that its now creating super A.I. bots and time traveling suits that can create wormholes and move people thousands of light years in a flash. Its not the 60s anymore, science fiction writers simply think bigger as we progress ourselves. And probably why Discovery jumped to the 32nd century in first place.

You can blame Kurtzman, but it’s all canon. Time to just accept it.

Disinvited

Cmd. bremmon,

Re: correction

In THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE, 2 out of 7000 starships showed up on its way to Earth, and a Commodore vetoed amassing a fleet as he was convinced 1 starship was all that it would take. Then, when the planet-killer disabused him of that notion with him in command of the Enterprise, he incremented it to thinking 2 was all it would take. And oddly enough, Kirk proved the Commodore right in his reassessment.

ML31

Not so. The planet killer may have eventually found its way to Earth but the next target was the Rigel colony. Decker engaged the machine the first time with his ONE ship. “The result was a wrecked ship and a dead crew.” according to Spock. He tried again with the Enterprise. “We made a mistake then. We were too far away. This time I intend to engage at point blank range.” Still, ONE ship. It was only through Scotty and his engineering team that they managed to get the Constellation moving and one phaser bank recharged that they were even able to save the Enterprise from his obsession. There was no proving Decker right except from his suicide it led Kirk to the idea to use the Consellation to destroy the thing from within. “Maybe he had the right idea but not enough power to do it.”

The Doomsday Machine is my favorite TOS episode. I love it when Kirk tells Spock, “Mr. Spock, I ORDER to you to take command on my personal authority as Captain of the Enterprise!”

Disinvited

ML31,

Re: Yes so

You have forgotten that when Kirk fired on the planetkiller Decker changed his assessment and said:

“Good boy, Jim. Between the two of us, we’ll kill that thing.”

And there were TWO functioning Federation starships up to and until the one succeeded in disabling the planetkiller through its own self-destruction (A tried and true starfleet tactic as fans later discover.)

And regardless of the planetkiller disabling the 1st Federation starship it encountered, it then encountered another one BEFORE it reached Earth on its Earth-directed trajectory That’s encountering TWO starships no matter how you slice it.

Tiger2

OK I have got to rewatch that episode lol. Haven’t seen it in ages.

Cmd.Bremmon

A whole 2 (two) starships, Rigel must be strategic. That’s a whole 200% more starships then the entire Federation of Planets was able to divert to prevent V’ger from reaching Earth from the Klingon border (going all the way across the Federation) or get over to Organia. I guess Starfleet was almost able to divert 2 (yes a whole 2!) starships to intercept the stolen Enterprise on its way to Genesis if the Grissom had not been destroyed (though just a science vessel) and if Scotty hadn’t done his magic on the Excelsior (granted that was like a decade later, maybe they were able to build a ship or two a year). As I recall the largest fleet maneuver granted two decades later after TOS was Operation Retrieve in Star Trek VI where I think a whole six (6!!!) starships were going to assault the whole Klingon Empire and make it to Qo’nos. You’d think starships were in short supply and capital intensive or something in TOS. Kind of like the American navy when founded, you keep your 7000 ships in reserve and use the 5-6 frigates to do all the work. And because it’s 12 colonies, why you automatically can have 7000 ships because why not? Kind of like Earth, 120 countries, we can have 7000 aircraft carriers and 7000 starships because we the Earth is big and we have 5 billion people. And then Top Gun II will be so cool because Tom Cruise is one of 7000 pilots off the 7000 aircraft carriers; that always adds to the drama.

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Hey, at this point I’m just fact-checking your numbers in your exuberance to make your point.

If you are contending the NCC starships are like the only 12 aircraft carriers in the fleet – that follows my feel for it too.

But the 1st series also says Starfleet had 27 Starbases and 8 Outposts and there’s no way a fleet consisting of only 12 aircraft carriers pushing at the edges of Federation explored space can be servicing all the daily needs of those facilities in supplies, personnel transport, etc.

Starfleet has to, at least, have thousands of lesser vessels, some armed and some not, to service the needs of that number of dispersed space facilities.

You also are forgetting that, before everything got hot, in ERRAND OF MERCY Kor’s fleet reports to him that a Federation Fleet equivalent to their own around Organia had arrived:

comment image

Cmd. bremmon

So invading the Federation the Klingons send a dozen battlecrusiers and we manage to deploy one. Your right there must be THOUSANDS of starships(?????) capable of warp travel with matter/anti matter reactors. (I’m with the tech manual, I’d guess 12 ‘starships’, 12 scouts and 15 destroyers max with everything else being short range (which is why starbases are so seemingly important) or cargo/support (double the destroyers by TWOK. I also don’t think the Federation is a quarter of the galaxy in TOS but 5 homeworlds and 100LY max and that’s if you count a claimed ‘exploration treaty zone’). Also Spock I maintain is the first Vulcan in Starfleet with the Valiant being an experiment so new is the organization).

Cmd.Bremmon

Correction – Also Spock I maintain is the first Vulcan in Starfleet with the INTREPID (first all Vulcan crew) being an experiment so new is the organization).

Disinvited

Cmd. bremmon,

Re: deploy one.

There was no report of a Klingon Fleet in the Quadrant until after the Enterprise arrived. The Enterprise was not sent to Organia in response to reports of a Klingon Fleet there. Once Sulu detected one, he returned with a Federation Fleet as I noted Kor’s people reported to him.

ML31

Bremmon, it wasn’t that Starfleet dispatched two starships to defend Rigel from the planet killer. It was the Constellation encountering it and failing. The Enterprise responded to the distress signal. If you recall, Spock’s plan was to get the hell out of Dodge, away from the thing’s subspace interference in order to warn starfleet command. Presumably a plan would be formulated and a force would be amassed. You are acting like had they done that the response from Starfleet would have been, “You know we only have 12, now 11, Connies. The planet killer will reach Rigel before the next closest Connie can. It’s just you to stop that thing. Good luck!”

Further, in TUC, Operation Retrieve wasn’t an assault on Qo’nos. It was a small force to go to Ruha Penthe with the goal to rescue Kirk and McCoy. A place while in Klingon space seemed to be pretty reomote. Even six felt like it might be overkill. Add to that the explanation of said operation was part of a deleted scene anyway that was put back in on the video tape version of the film.

Cmd.Bremmon

Yes, that is exactly what I think the response would have been… “You know we only have 12, now 11, Connies. The planet killer will reach Rigel before the next closest Connie can. It’s just you to stop that thing. Good luck!”
Does anyone not see the added EPIC DRAMA of this situation?!?!?

I’d say maybe they had a couple destroyers and scouts too (and that all the commerce was by the private sector, Harry Mudd, miners, etc).

In no case do I think anyone thought Starfleet Command was going to be like “hey, we have seven thousand starships we can send your way, maybe we can spare 5% in your sector that 100-350 starships can take it on”.

ML31

OK. To me the mere fact that Spock decided the best option was to get away to warn starfleet strongly suggests that was a better option than just sticking with the one working starship. If not, Spock would know this and as a result would know the futility of that action. Logically it would make no sense. The drama DID come from one ship being forced to engage the thing against the will of her captain. But in the course of events a solution was uncovered.

Cmd.Bremmon

I think Spock was hoping that maybe 1 or 2 Constitution class starships might be available, a destroyer or two. Also I think he seriously thought they should be evacuating Rigel and/or alerting the planetary defences; wasn’t he saying they need to “warn Starfleet Command”.

Cmd.Bremmon

Yes, here is the quote from Spock. “Logically, our primary duty is to survive in order to warn Starfleet Command.”
i.e. he doesn’t think anyone is going to help them and they should be preparing to evacuate and get Rigel/Earth/etc ready for Armageddon. If there were 7000 starships potentially available wouldn’t his quote be “Logically, we should go join up with 5% of the fleet that 150 of us can take it on”. And Decker as Commodore would be like “I’ll personally order 150 starships to get their ass over here that we can use maximum firepower?”.

ML31

You just repeated my point. Spock felt it more prudent to warn star fleet so they could prepare a defense/evacuation/standoff, whatever it was they needed to do. NOT try and destroy it with ONE star ship. Spock was not going to speak for what Star Fleet command’s decision would be. It would be presumptuous for him to decide there would be 150 ships available. But it seems reasonable that with the time at hand they could have amassed a decent sized grouping to give that planet killer what for and STILL start planetary evacuations just in case. This is not an either-or situation. It’s not that they only had one ship around for a billion light years and they did not have 1000 ships just hanging around close by with nothing do do. The only reason the thing was engaged to begin with was because of Decker. And Decker alone.

Cmd. Bremmon

So Decker who is a Commodore and then Kirk after him decided to attack the Doomsday Machine not once, not twice but three times not out of any urgency but because hell why wait for 100 starships when they think 1-2 ships have it in the bag??? Sorry can’t subscribe to that interpretation, makes even the Doomsday machine lame and nonsensical.

Disinvited

Cmd. Bremmon,

Re: lame and nonsensical

If, by that, you mean Decker was clearly a man in medical crisis who somehow managed to hang on to just enough of a rational strategic mind despite it to out think both Spock and McCoy, you’d be right.

Re: 100 starships

Spock advocated the pack solution to both Decker and Kirk as the most rational option. And yet, events unfolded that led to both leaders ignoring it in pursuit of a more immediate lone wolf solution each.

We can marvel at how utterly ridiculous Decker’s solution, that somehow he was going to defeat that thing in a shuttle when he couldn’t manage it with 2 starships, was. And yet, the one wolf’s “solution” led to the other’s success. Go figure.

Cmd.Bremmon

Let’s forgot how illogical and reckless it is that Kirk would attack if he could get back up… (I don’t know how anyone can think Decker (and Spock allowing Decker to attack) and Kirk would attack if it wasn’t almost absolutely necessary)…

DECKER: Then we’ll have to fight it now before it gets any stronger.
SPOCK: Illogical. We cannot destroy it. THEREFORE, WE CANNOT SAVE RIGEL. We must transport the Captain and the others from the Constellation and escape this thing’s subspace interference in order to warn Starfleet Command.
PALMER: Mister Spock, we’ve pierced the interference locally.

So why does Spock say “we cannot destroy it, therefore we cannot save Rigel” if there are another 5000-7000 starships in the fleet??? Can’t they save Rigel?

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Re: Can’t they save Rigel?

Of course Starfleet and their thousands of vessels can. It is only by tortuously twisting Spock’s “We” which he was using to refer to the Commodore, himself and the crew as the singular Enterprise unit that you can misconstrue it otherwise. He was advocating that they escape that thing’s interference so that they could warn Starfleet Command so that THEY and their fleet of ships could save Rigel.

As the man said to the Commodore in plain English in the episode:

Spock: A single ship cannot combat it.

Cmd.Bremmon

“Of course Starfleet and their thousands of vessels can.”
That’s how the Doomsday Machine came off to you? Of course they can?!?!!? They’re all on their way???
LOL
Ok….

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Re: They’re all on their way???

Will you please stop making up strawman arguments? No one said that.

Spock said one ship could not combat it and Spock notified Decker that Starfleet command needed to be notified so that more than one ship would be at Rigel combat ready to do so when it got there.

At no time, did Spock gain the opportunity to so notify Starfleet so no one was on their way. And the Enterprise certainly wasn’t investigating that solar system because Decker had ever bothered to do so.

ML31

No, Dis.

The line you mentioned uttered by Decker “Between the two of us, we’ll kill that thing.” was not said to Kirk. It was his warped conclusion that Kirk got the Constellation working enough to join the fight. Which was not the intent at all. It was Kirk distracting the machine in order to give the Enterprise a chance to get away. Decker never changed his assessment. He was ALWAYS obsessed with destroying that thing immediately. If you recall, Kirk was astonished when he got his viewscreen working and saw what was going down. When they finally broke through the interference locally Decker told Kirk they attacked on his order. Kirk responded with “You mean you’re the maniac who almost destroyed my ship?!” That doesn’t sound like a coordinated attack of two ships working together to me.

There was ONE functioning starship. And one that was barely removed from the critical list by Scotty and his team. There was never a time in the situation where both were running at their best or even at medium level. I was not questioning the presence of two ships. There were two. It’s just that one was nearly destroyed when approached. It’s not like Decker’s plan was to use two ships on his 2nd attempt. His foolhardy plan was just to move closer. A 2nd ship was NEVER a part of his thinking. That is the concept I was correcting.

Earth was never once mentioned in the episode. Spock said, “If (the machine) continues on its current trajectory, it will pass through the most densely populated section of our galaxy.” It might be safe to assume Earth is in that section but it was never mentioned my name. Only the Rigel colony was.

Disinvited

ML31,

No, ML31.

You are forgetting Kirk wrote the official record of the battle against that thing which does not correspond to the events as you presented them. Matt Decker died in battle officially a hero as I described.

Also ships get damaged in battle all the time, you don’t count them out merely because they aren’t operating at peak performance. You allow them to continue to participate, as best they can, if the crew manning them heroically choose to do so, to a successful battle conclusion, which is what happened.

Disinvited

ML31,

Re:Earth

FWIW Decker said it was on a bee-line to the “heart of the galaxy” and there was an awful lot of talk about how many “solar” systems it had consumed and would consume along that line.

The Rigel colony was located in the Rigel System which was less than 90ly from Earth.

I haven’t liked most of IDW’s Trek comics (what I’ve read of them, at least) — but this looks solid. I may have to pick an issue or two up.

blackmocco

I was very pleasantly surprised. They’re excellent, and I had reservations before buying them. Mostly beautiful art too.

Good to know! It’s the art which has sent me running away from IDW’s Trek line screaming in the past.

Kevin

Jackson Lanzing is a huge douche in real life.

Wayne Alford

I’m not going to say anything bad about the old stuff. I collect very little of it anymore. I would rather have fresher things.

David Gardner

I bought the collected Year Four based on the reviews on this site. Suffice it to say, I was not impressed. I think that the ideas were in line with what I would have expected from TOS, but the execution pretty much fell flat. I won’t be spending any more on Year Five.