Picard Assembles A Crew In New Photos From The Third Episode Of ‘Star Trek: Picard’

Ahead of the new episode which debuts on Thursday CBS has released new photos ,along with a few photos we’ve seen previously but we now know are from the third episode. Jean-Luc will assemble his crew with the help of Raffi and Chris Rios who has his own private ship.

Title: The End is the Beginning

Synopsis:

Completely unaware of her special nature, Soji continues her work and captures the attention of the Borg cube research project’s executive director. After rehashing past events with a reluctant Raffi, Picard seeks others willing to join his search for Bruce Maddox, including pilot and former Starfleet officer Cristóbal Rios (Santiago Cabrera).

Promotional photos

Of particular interest is the photo from a flashback to the mid-2380’s with Admiral Picard and Commander Raffi Musiker:

“The End Is The Beginning” — Episode #103 — Pictured (l-r): Michelle Hurd as Raffi; Patrick Stewart as Picard of the the CBS All Access series STAR TREK: PICARD. Photo Cr: Trae Patton/CBS ©2019 CBS Interactive, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

More photos

New episodes of Star Trek: Picard are released on CBS All Access in the USA Thursdays at 12:01 AM PT/3:01 AM ET. In Canada it airs Thursdays on CTV Sci-Fi Channel at 6PM PT /9PM ET and streams on Crave. For the rest of the world it streams Fridays on Amazon Prime Video. Episodes are released weekly.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Picard news at TrekMovie.

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Luke Montgomery

I’m so excited!!!!! This show is amazing.

TG47

I’m really enjoying it too Luke Montgomery.

It makes me very optimistic about the future of the franchise.

I have some quibbles that I’m commenting on precisely because I think it’s excellent overall, but a there are a few things that don’t quite meet the standard that the rest of the show is setting.

Robert Martello

👍👍❤

Syvok

Always happy to see Patrick in uniform.

Thorny

But good heavens, that’s an ugly uniform.

RikersMailbox

I dig the uniforms

Mathew

I’m with RikersMailbox. I like the uniforms.

J_Randomuser

I like them too!

Picard's Shadow

Yes but the costume teams sure have a problem with collars. I havent seen one uniform collar of ANY era in this series that hasn’t been way too big (and as a result flares out at the back)

will

The TNG uniform collars were particularly awful being too tall, using the wrong type of edge detailing, having the wrong type of point in the center, and being at least an inch too large around their necks.

They would have been better off buying Anovos replicas second hand than making their own in house. Even some of the China based knockoffs have more accurate cut and trim.

Captain Danno

The uniforms themselves are ok to me. It’s just that none of them seem to fit very well! It’s almost as if they had to rush them into production without adequate time to fit them to the actors.

c d

No, they don’t look like bad cosplay! They really don’t!

TG47

I don’t know if it’s rush, or just not great tailoring and execution of the sewing.

I agree that it’s really not up to the level of the design, and if it shows up so clearly on a small still, how will it be on an HD screen?

It’s really surprising actually, especially given how meticulous the workmanship has been with the Toronto costume team – whatever critiques some fans have had with the designs in the first season of Discovery.

Ian

They could have gotten by with the First Contact uniforms for the regular crew one last time, those were made with some weightier materials that were designed to hold up on the big screen. Seems a little silly to go to the expense of designing and fabricating a new *old* uniform!

bassmaster22

The First Contact uniforms were really nicely designed. These look like a step back.

ML31

Forced to agree. These have a retro feel to them. Should have gone forward from the Nemesis uniforms. These feel like they were the next step on TNG.

will

I asked the designer of these uniforms on Twitter what the reason for the design change was and she said it would be addressed at some point in a press release… thus far it hasn’t and I doubt it ever will.

What confuses me is they changed the uniform designs (at least) twice between the introduction of the style communicator badge they’re wearing and whenever they introduced the “modern” one seen in Picard’s present day… That makes zero sense to me beyond being a production artifact of wanting to cash in on the nostalgia of that particular badge being the most recent one we had seen Picard wearing and, if that was the case, why did they ditch the gray shoulders at all?

fgdj2000

I actually like that they went through the effort. Shows you just how much time has passed, and they were changing uniforms every few years back in the 1990s, so, it fits. I personally really like the 2380s design, even more than the 2399 design, but I agree that they don’t seem to fit that well…

will

They were changing them for each series but each time they changed them they had a cohesive evolution of some sort from the preceding design.

TNG jumper lead to the more formal cut TNG with shoulder pads and stiff fabric which lead to the DS9 jumpsuit variant which lead the FC gray shoulder uniforms…. the uniforms here look like they skipped everything and went back to the design worn by Admiral Haden in season 3 of TNG for a starting point rather than going with an evolutionary next step from the gray shoulders iteration.

bsan

All the costumes from the original TNG movies and shows were auctioned off after the Paramount/Viacom split. CBS would have had to fabricate them from scratch even if they wanted to use this design.

Anyway, I like these newer uniforms much better than the grey-black First Contact uniforms (which are my least favourite Trek uniforms).

I do agree that, while I like the design of the new uniforms in Picard, there’s something wrong with the tailoring/fitting. Too many wrinkles, floppy bits compared to previous shows. Not terrible, but a bit Fan-film looking. Even when they did the Data flashback scenes, the old uniforms weren’t as well tailored as they had been on the original shows.

Marja

It’s funny, Thorny, I was just thinking “that’s the best-looking Admiral uniform I’ve seen in any TNG incarnation” … they were all even worse than this one. This one is not bad at all. Y’know, compared with previous ones.

Almost everything could be better fitted in this series. I dislike the overalls Soji has to wear, and Alison Pill’s costumes, [yawn]. [That’s probably intentional with Pill’s character though.]

I’m much happier with Gersha Phillips’ designs on “Discovery.”

Though I will say Adm Picard’s retiree wardrobe looks quite good.

The Collector

It’s similar to the late 2360s DS9/VOY uniforms, but at least ummm 25% different.

TG47

Collector, please take a look at military uniforms since WW II.

You’ll find that they get major design changes quite often, and occasionally revert to updated versions of much older designs.

You’re efforts to bring up the discredited, false 25% thing are really getting old.

The Collector

It’s “your” and that was the first time I’ve brought up the 25% difference theory, which I previously was not convinced by.

alastair87

If there was ever any truth to the claim that it was required to make things different, I don’t think it applies any more.

The Picard series has lifted large swathes directly from TNG and the TNG films unmodified.

One thing I do think is that if they had known when they commissioned Discovery they were going to be making this show, they might have been more conservative with some of the visual changes.

In particular I don’t think they would (or at least should) have substantially redesigned the Klingons. Personally I’d be happy if they just silently went back to the more TNG Klingons, perhaps with a minor tidy up in both this and Discovery. After all – that’s how the forehead ridges came in to begin with, with no explanation on-screen (until it was retconned by Enterprise).

Tiger2

I really don’t have a problem with how the Klingons look now in Discovery. Again, no one had an issue with change, it was just BAD change that was the problem lol. But now they look a lot closer to the TOS films/TNG look even if they still look a bit different. So I’m okwy with it and they don’t look like weird orc rejects.

But Kurtzman already said if Worf appears he will look like Worf, so you will basically get that look if we see them on Picard. I imagine he will look a little different (and he’s had many minor changes between TNG and DS9) but he will still look like Worf thankfully.

c d

>;>}

Garth Lorca

I love these uniforms. But they don’t really make sense though. Why creating these elaborated uniforms only to replace them with close-to-DS9/VOY uniforms a few years later?

Bob

Starfleet essentially used the same uniforms for 70 years, only to change them six times from the 2350s to the 2390s. Good luck trying to come up with an in-universe explanation for that!

c d

I think the increase in uniform changes was a security measure: threat forces attempting to imitate and infiltrate Starfleet would not be to keep up with the changes.
The only problem was Starfleet couldn’t keep us with the changes either.
>;>}

TG47

Bob and Garth Lorca: I don’t know United States military uniforms as well as some others here, but back when we first saw the new uniform in the summer, someone pointed out that the U.S. has gone through periods of stability as well as frequent radical changes and reversions to old designs.

Often the changes arise during wartime and when wars end.

Which would line up pretty well with the long periods of stability punctuated by a lot of change as we see in Trek.

Cmd.Bremmon

They look like PJs, but I really can’t complain since so did TOS uniforms so at least that is honoring the original source material. Glad to know us TOS fans still have the best uniforms in the awesome ST:II – ST:VI uniforms though on the down side everyone was a red shirt negating all red shirt jokes which was no fun. There is a price to everything I suppose.

Nothing some flowers and hot pink stripes can’t fix….

Boze

It would be a decent uniform, except for two things: 1) that awful crease between the chest and the arm, which is needlessly accented by that thin decorative line across the chest; and 2) the fact that the bottom part of the colored area doesn’t copy the shoulder line, which makes the shoulders look all slouching and droopy.

Cmd.Bremmon

Wonder if Commander Musiker will be a little more rational than Picard regarding AI given no experience with Data re: why would one be pro engineering perfect AI life while being ok with a ban on eugenics research for engineering perfect organic life. Also wasn’t having species go through a proper organic development with lessons learned the basis of the Prime Directive? If we can just program AI why can’t we train organic species? I’d like to see her challenge her former superior especially given the let down at Mars, seems he has a blind spot after Data. Have to wonder if that lead to the failure of Starfleet to defend Utopia Planetia.

Legate Damar

I’d say that Picard seems to be the only one in the Federation who is acting rationally. Data has spent decades saving lives and proving that artificial life forms can benefit the Federation. Then, suddenly there is a very suspicious Synth attack on Mars, and everybody panics and bans artificial life. Its the same nonsense they pulled after the Eugenics Wars. Just because Khan and his followers were insane, Earth and the Federation decided to ban all genetic engineering, forcing good people like Dr. Bashir to hide their identities. You can’t judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few.

ML31

Not so sure how many AI’s have been created in order to say such a comment. From what we the audience has seen, nearly every single example of AI or near AI seen in Trek has had disastrous results. Data being the lone exception. But even his creation brought Lore along with it. So I think it is completely understandable the reluctance to further the creation of AI’s.

Tiger2

Yes but AIs has been around for CENTURIES in Star Trek. Yes we seen both good and bad forms of them, but its silly to completely ban them altogether when you had one serving in Starfleet just like any other species.

I understand why Starfleet is cautious about it and why we see so few of them now when by the 24th century AIs could literally be probes that explore the galaxy and not humans so they have never been that dependent on them, but it’s ridiculous to just ban them altogether.

And then you have to wonder just because human’s AI went bad does that mean ALL the other species in the Federation had to get rid of theirs too even if they been around forever? I just don’t see that as rational since we obviously can’t assume only Earth made Androids in the Federation even if Data was the most advanced.

A34

Control should have won.

Tiger2

NH4 you were banned. I’ve asked you many times to ignore my posts. You only know how to troll, why you were banned the first time.

A34

You got the wrong guy and it’s hard to ignore you. You post here all the time. You’re the King.

Tiger2

And you’re pathetic and sad that you can’t leave a board that has kicked you off of it. Most of us gladly ignore you and why you’re so desperate for attention.

A34

That’s interesting since I hardly post here. If I was so needy for attention I would be posting more than 2 or 3 posts an article unlike your 50+ posts per article. More proof you got the wrong guy. Bless you.

Tiger2

NH4 JUST LEAVE ME ALONE! How many times can I say this? You’re so annoying. You seem to have some issues.

ML31

I’m just going from what we have seen in Trek. Not speculating on what may or may not have occurred off screen. The only successful AI in Trek has been Data. And in 30+ years no one has been able to reproduce anything even close to it. Which has always felt to be on the absurd side for me but I guess we just have to go with it.

Phillip Thorne

By that logic, since nearly every Starfleet admiral and holodeck has had disastrous results, the Federation should also ban Starfleet admirals and holodecks. :)

The Federation (as a faceless central government) doesn’t seem to do “subtle” or “nuanced”, and that’s for dramatic reasons, to establish a conflict for the individual lead characters in each series.

Cmd.Bremmon

Well if you are saying faceless central government does NOT equal utopia…. I AGREE!!

ML31

Except, there have been adequate Admirals presented from time to time. So even that is a better record than they have with AI’s. The hollodeck I am forced to agree with you but that can be easily fixed. I always wondered why it is so very easy to turn the safety protocols off. Those should be permanently ON. Period. Or better yet, the device shouldn’t even have them. It should be perfectly safe to use in any circumstance. No chance of getting shot or drowned or anything of that sort. It’s like someone making a VR visor today that has the ability for stakes to shoot out and blind the user. But you can switch that feature off if you like. The question is, why was it made that way to begin with???

Tiger2

I agree completely Legate Damar. I did understand why they initially banned eugenics after the Eugenics war but that was literally centuries ago now. You would think by the 23rd century they become more rational and open minded about it and not assume any human who is genetically altered will turn into a stark raving lunatic who becomes power hungry. As you mention Dr. Bashir was the very opposite of that. Even Dr. Phlox says his species does genetic engineering all the time, it wasn’t perceived as bad or wrong, just another process to improve people and always had positive results.
But the Federation treats anyone as the devil who was genetically altered based on a small group of bad people from literally 300 years ago and now they are doing it again with Synths. Completely ridiculous. If you want to ban the models of synths that attacked Mars, OK, I can understand that, but to ban ALL A.I. life is just paranoia. Especially as you said Data like Bashir was the complete opposite of that.

But I’m pretty convinced by the end of the season the Federation will come to their senses about the synth and lift the ban when its discovered they were programmed that way and didn’t just turn evil like CONTROL did (you would think if they were thinking to ban all AI, it would’ve happened after that incident lol). Meanwhile we’ll learn eugenics won’t be in vogue again until the 29th century.

Cmd.Bremmon

Poor V’ger, turns out we could have programmed in some emotions!! Just had to wait for TNG! I look forward to the Starfleet being all thousand year old super androids and holograms. They’ll probably keep the eugenics ban because who needs organics? Why not have them all communicate too via wireless network and share all their knowledge and work together for the common good, no evidence whatsoever nothing will go wrong because you know, Data. Looks like Picard isn’t the only one with a Data induced blind spot.
Also TNG = pro eugenics, you said it not me. This is why writers shouldn’t come up with fake science in which the human condition can be electronically engineered; something TOS tried but failed obviously to teach to all. New Trek where mushrooms equal warp drive and robots equal life.

Tiger2

LOL I have no issue with genetic engineering. I think its dumb its banned in the Federation at all. But again Cmd. Bremmon you just come off really annoying at times with some of these ‘arguments’, I’m just being honest when it comes to this silly separation you want to paint everything in the 24th century as ‘bad’ when it all comes from the same show. And TNG wasn’t ‘pro eugenics’ anymore than TOS was, so what are you talking about? They were just as much against it in Picards time as Kirk was. Can you stop trying to turn everything TNG does as bad and everything TOS does as good? Dude, its just juvenile and annoying, especially when some of the things you cite are not even TRUE. as your example when you leave out that Bashir’s father went to prison for what he did and its still just as illegal as it has been. So again how was it ‘pro eugenics’? At the very least stop being disingenuous about it. It’s eye rolling.

And I don’t remotely get your issue with AI technology? Are you really surprised in something like STAR TREK we would never see advanced AIs that would display emotions? Why not? Again, I asked you in the other thread that you IGNORED what exactly is wrong with AI machines adapting to be more human? What is the harm in that?? And Starfleet has already accomplished it with the Doctor who in many ways is more advanced than Data. He displays emotions, how did it make him ‘bad’? He is a BETTER person and doctor WITH emotions. Is he not? He also expanded beyond his programming which other EMHs never got a chance to do. So explain it please? Tell me how how an advanced AI with emotions proves to be a bad thing?

TOS didn’t ‘teach’ us anything man. As always you took a few lines from what Kirk thought in an episode and applied it to the entire franchise lol. It’s ridiculous.

In fact Star Trek doesn’t go FAR ENOUGH with AIs. There should just be entire societies of Data’s out there. It’s weird with all the episodes we have never seen a story where a ship just encounters an advanced AI society by now.

Cmd.Bremmon

Our minds are special and not understood. The engineering of life to be perfect is an abhorrent practice filled with unintended consequences re Germany 1940. There is a line between medicine and eugenics and it is very grey. Trying to oversimplify because “Data” is dangerous. The equating of electronics to life dehumanizes life in my opinion. Pretending Siri = life because programmed to act human doesn’t make Siri human. That’s not to say there is no place for robots. I’m a real engineer so I know those ethical concerns are real. And TOS has lots of lessons to teach, that TNG in 2020 has raised fans to claim “TOS didn’t teach” is exactly why TNG should be loathed as nonsensical boring nonsense. Also debate with others who don’t agree with your position shouldn’t be annoying but fun, that is real diversity and acceptance btw. I disagree with you, and find the debate entertaining and welcome your opinion . I wonder if that’s another TOS vs TNG contrast but can’t think of where TNG went wrong on that. Ironically I like Picard far better than TNG.

Tiger2

Boring nonsensical nonesense that you watched every episode of lol. Literally every single episode.

And I wasn’t saying TOS didn’t teach us anything in general. No, I was talking specifically about this subject of AI. As you always do, you take a few lines from that show and pretend that it should speak for everyone else. Just because Kirk believed that doesn’t mean that Spock did or Starfleet as a whole. Kirk also thought the Klingons had no redeeming value and should let them all die. And TOS was during a time AI didn’t exist at all. Now, we all carry a form of it in our pockets. Yes, still a very low form obviously but its there. But no I don’t think we are going to be building any perfect androids in the next 300 years either, thats why we call it science FICTION.

And I’m not saying because we disagree that why you’re annoying. I disagree with people here daily lol, I don’t find their arguments annoying. What’s ANNOYING about you is how you cherry pick, misrepresent and just completely ignore things to make your own point. It’s just completely disingenuous. I pointed out the example in your post when you said TNG= pro eugenics. A. TNG never even DEALT with this issue, that was DS9 so that’s already an eyeroll. But since I know you actually like DS9, you tried to pin it off on TNG to make your point stronger. B. As stated, it wasn’t ‘pro’ anything since what was done to Bashir was still highly illegal and suspicious to everyone, so how was it ‘pro’ eugenics?

THIS is what I mean when I say you’re annoying, because you do this ALL the time to make a point that is not even there. And you only do it when it comes to the 24th century era and treat the 23rd century era as if it didn’t do ridiculous things and perfect story telling when that’s not close to true. They all had their positives and negatives. I like TOS as much as you do btw, I just don’t romanticize that show as you do lol.

But at least you answered THIS question about your issues with AI with a straight forward answer this time. OK, I get it, you don’t relish the idea of AI becoming as advanced as humans. That’s fine of course and I’m guessing in the real world we won’t have much to fear on that end lol. BUT in the world of Star Trek this isn’t exactly the same issue because they already do exista and as Picard eloquently stated in Measure of a Man what happens if and when androids reach consciousness, then what? Yes our brains are unique, so is every species, they are still life regardless. But this is what makes Star Trek GREAT, that this issue you brought up are probably issues people are still grappling with in the 24th century now. NOT everyone probably sees it the way Picard sees it just like not everyone sees it the way Kirk sees it.

That’s why I love this show so much.

But what happens the day you come across machine organisms that has created a society as we have? In the world of Star Trek my guess is there would be super advanced andriods that could act just as biological as any other species. My guess is plenty would be out there just because Starfleet has not run into any yet

c d

What I learned about AI in TOS is that Kirk could defeat any AI just by giving it a logic talk. “I am not programmed to respond in that area.”

Tiger2

LOL, no one could talk a machine into its own self destruction like Kirk could! ;D

Cmd.Bremmon

WE AGREE!!!! Hurray!!!

Tiger2

LOL we don’t agree at all. I only said I understand why YOU have an issue with it. I don’t, in fact its the complete opposite for me. But I guess it proves Star Trek fans aren’t monolithic. And fortunately its big enough now with so many shows and films it almost has something for everyone at this point.

ML31

Having recently seen Measure of a Man for the first time since it aired, I am forced to say that it was not a well done episode. It did open up a debate on whether AI can be considered sentient life. Which I still admit is a tough question and excellent cases can currently be made on both sided of that coin. I still tend to lean to the side of of no, they are not but that position is not set in stone in any way at this point. As far as I’m concerned, the episode was odd in that the arguments against Data being a sentient individual were the more logical and compelling ones. Made all the more convincing because they were made by someone who personally did not believe in them. The argument that he was were mainly based on emotion and hyperbole. But what really flawed the episode was that NO ONE in the recurring cast felt Data was starfleet property and all believed him to be a sentient being on par with humans or Andorians or any other sentient being encountered. The best Trek is when not only both sides are presented but when known characters find themselves on both sides. TMOAM did not deliver that. It told the audience that the characters see it this way, therefore you should see it that way, too. They get credit for broaching the topic. But it was not done in a meaningful way.

Tiger2

Well we definitely disagree there! Measure of a Man still one of my top episodes and what Star Trek does best. And I rewatched it a few weeks before Picard started and still holds up. It’s crazy THIS is the episode that seems to set up season one. I don’t think anyone considered that a possibility until the first episode.

Georgiou’s Sass

Bremmon, it’s been boring reading your complaints about TNG for years. We get it- you loathe show and you expect everyone else to (“is exactly why TNG should be loathed”)- which by the way is borderline (if not outright) gatekeeping. It’s not a good look for anyone. Maybe it is time that you stop whining and complaining? TNG isn’t going anywhere and neither are it’s legions upon legions of fans. At this point you are offering NOTHING new.

Cmd.Bremmon

Just for you… I think Picard could really set up a back to basics “Wagon Train to the Stars” series in the 25th century.
The Federation in the 25th century – most organics sit at home and in their holodecks. Exploration and work is done by superior AI and holograms.
Richard Daystrom’s dream comes true from The Ultimate Computer: “Men no longer need die in space or on some alien world! Men can live and go on to achieve greater things than fact-finding and dying for galactic space, which is neither ours to give or to take!”
Some however yearn for the days of exploration.
Grace Jaden dreams of joining starfleet and exploring the universe but cannot compete physically nor mentally with the engineered and experienced androids and holograms of the fleet. Her want for the unknown is seen as irrational. Inspired by the voyages of the USS Enterprise she decides to run away from home on a freighter to the frontier.
Beyond Federation space organic “misfits” – humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians – head out on their own with old relic starships, setting up new colonies and mining dilthium. To the Federation they are luddites, outlaws and outcasts, living an unnecessarily harsh life. There is no cooperation and conflicts arise often. Yet on the frontier is freedom.
But then comes a decree – the outlaws are deemed to be violating the Prime Directive claiming unauthorized space as their own and contaminating primitives, the original cultures of the Federation, with dreams of exploration. The new “superior” leaders of the Federation see the stagnation around them and look to a species from the past for the next step in evolution and those on the frontier are seen as being in the way.
The starship Jaden served on is old and crippled, the owner dead. Yet the crew looks to her to take command knowing that she will never turn back from the frontier.
The outworlders are out matched in every way, their only hope to learn to work together and press into the galaxy in the hopes of new alliances and new technologies that can ensure their freedom. The Organians once deactivated the entire starfleet, perhaps they could be found again. Perhaps the Federation has lessons yet to be learned.

Tiger2

I have no issue if someone just doesn’t like a particular show or film. That’s fine obviously. I don’t love all of them myself, but that’s not the issue. It’s the GATEKEEPING that is the issue. If you say you you don’t like a show and think its sucks, that’s OK to say. But when you say you think it shouldn’t be deemed canon, ignored or outright cancelled because YOU don’t like it is just eye rolling. Maybe just MAYBE its easier for you to stop watching said show? And then it comes off so hypocritical because you are still whining over a 30 year show you have admitted YOU WATCHED EVERY EPISODES lol. You really had to get to All Good Things before you decided it was all ‘boring’ and ‘nonsensical’? Uh, no offense but that says more about you than the show.

I didn’t like Enterprise when it first came on. I stuck it out through its first season, decided it just wasn’t for me and stopped watching it after that. I just didn’t like the direction it was going in and hated it was a prequel. But I accepted that’s what the show was even if its not the vision of Star Trek I wanted. Everyone wants something different, that’s the issue, but you either accept the direction or don’t. But I didn’t spend all my time on boards saying it should be deemed non-canon and cancelled because I had issues with it either. Yeah I said why I didn’t like it for sure, but I never once said it should be cancelled or ‘not real Star Trek’ because its not the version I wanted. That’s the most eye rolling thing to me personally…and people do it all the time, sadly by most of the old fans.

And on top he seems to think others should agree with him on it…and clearly most don’t. TNG was very popular for a reason and why so many are happy that Picard is back now.

Timpani

This. 1000% THIS.

A34

You watch Doctor Who? What did you think about the Jo Martin Doctor? I can’t wait to see her again.

Disinvited

Tiger2,

As I recall. In I, MUDD, Kirk didn’t destroy the android society but somehow repurposed them into Mudd’s jailers, which, I suppose, wasn’t too far removed from their original treatment of him before Harry convinced them there was a much bigger market out there that they were leaving untapped.

Tiger2

Thanks Disinvited,

I haven’t seen a lot of TOS in years and I always avoided the Mudd ones since I never liked him as a character (although that episode was the better one), which is ironic since I love him on Discovery.

ML31

I found Mudd’s Women to be AWFUL. But I, Mudd was VASTLY superior. I consider it one of the “light” episodes and 2nd 2nd funniest after Tribbles. Not a fan of Rainn Wilson’s reinterpretation of the character at all, btw.

Tiger2

I just never liked the characters and those episodes. I Mudd just felt too corny instead of funny but it is better than the other one for sure. As for Wilson I didn’t think I was going to like him at all because of how much I didn’t like the original character but I really fell in love with his character. He was involved in both my favorite episode (The Sanest Man) and Short Trek in their first seasons.

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Why wait when V’ger itself didn’t? Or do you have some evidence that in its threesome with Decker and Ilia, V’ger somehow avoided manipulating genetics in taking things to the next level?

Cmd.Bremmon

Any evidence that V’ger after exploring the entire galaxy determined that it could not simply engineer itself to have feelings? Take your time on that. I mean it’s not like it traveled across the galaxy seeking it’s creator to engage in said threesome right almost taking out the Earth in the process… I might that might have happened but Spock was all like “hey it’s okay, you need a human quality so I’ll build you a neural network for you because our science can do everything and anything”. Then the movie ended with the tagline THE AI ADVENTURE HAS JUST BEGUN to ensure that audience can relate!!!

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Re:Engineering itself to have feelings

But that’s exactly what V’ger did, it just mistakenly thought feeling like a carbon unit had no value in becoming like what it imagined its Creator to be.

Cmd.Bremmon

Using electronic parts like Data?!? You think Decker was an android?!? Or was he a hologram?

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Re:electronic parts

No, that’s the probe’s original mistaken plan where it thought that would be what its creator was made of.

Once it knew the truth, in order to properly merge with its actual carbon based creator, it would have to employ carbon based genetics and what its transformation of Ilia could teach it to properly interface with DNA to accomplish a true merger as it had planned.

I mean, supposedly it had learned all there was to know and was prepared to download all that into Decker’s brain. Some genetic enhancements had to be employed to allow a puny human brain the capacity to deal with all of that.

Cmd.Bremmon

“It would have to employ carbon based genetics and what its transformation of Ilia could teach it to properly interface with DNA to accomplish a true merger as it had planned.”
Bingo. Carbon based genetics = organic life which ST: PICARD says is not required. TNG can just program life with electronics. Turns out that puny human brain in TNG really is just a piece of equipment – there was nothing for V’ger to learn. The AI adventure has just begun!

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

Well Spock DID claim V’ger had learned all there was to know but somehow, inexplicably, it was unable to feel and from that, imagine and/or create the next level. Its creation and treatment of the Ilia probe showed those things where within its grasp but it just didn’t see any value to them. So, I suppose, it did need to learn the value of the various things it knew towards accomplishing its ultimate goal.

ML31

Maybe the V’Ger/Decker/Ilyia merge was the first Borg?

Disinvited

ML31,

Well one would imagine some cyborg variation at the very least.

But if it was the first borg, I, for one, would love to know where all the Ilia sensuality went – not to mention all the creativity from the humans as supposedly the borg have to keep assimilating because they are incapable of inventing new tech. Apparently, they use massive brute force supercomputing in adapting the tech they have to overcome new and unexpected problems?

ML31

I was just joking, Disinvited. Making fun of all the silly Borg orgin fan theories. Personally, I really don’t care about Borg origins.

Vulcan Soul

“Just because Khan and his followers were insane, Earth and the Federation decided to ban all genetic engineering, forcing good people like Dr. Bashir to hide their identities”

You are right, the ban of genetic modification that still persists in DS9 shows this synthetics ban is actually consistent with Federation values throughout its history (“don’t temper with life – artificial or biological”)

Cmd.Bremmon

You wouldn’t think the Federation would take that to an extreme with some Prime Directive where life must evolve on its own terms even at the risk of a self induced nuclear apocalypse wiping them out as if there is some real value put on that would you? I mean if you can just program life that would be rather nonsensical, discriminatory and downright sadistic wouldn’t it?!?

Tiger2

Wow can’t wait to see the flashback with Picard and Musiker! Those uniforms look so cool! It’s just nice to see 24th century inspired stuff again. I guess we’ll learn (or begin to learn) where and how the rift between them started since they were shown only to be very close and loyal to each other in the comic.

And Hugh is back!! :)

Dvorak

Yes, these old new uniforms are cooler than what was seen in last weeks episode.

Bamasi

That’s because when Picard left Star Fleet, he took his style with him!

Tiger2

LOL!

Commander K

Who thinks the final scene of the series will be Data playing cards with a holographic Picard lol

Trek in a Cafe

I thought that today. Freaky!

Nah, I’m thinking it’ll be the renegade Picard getting blasted into atoms by the Enterprise E….

Mike2

Love the new photos, and I think the uniforms look great. Small typo in the description of the photos of Picard and Musiker in uniform, it’s from the mid-2380s, not 2280s.

Fixed, thanks!

kmart

That control room looks like they just dropped a couple of consoles and chairs at the end of a JJ-era hangar deck. Really starting to wonder about ALL the designers being employed at CBS, going by a season of DSC and an ep of PIC.

A34

Picard is the cheaper show. The ship is just a ship, just like the Enterprise.

Ian

Pretty sure the budgets are comparable.

A34

Picard has less episodes. Discovery is the Flagship show.

The Collector

CBS is doomed then if that steaming pile of Sheilak faecal matter is a flagship product.

Timpani

Shut up.

The Collector

My response shall be immature… make me! Stop getting triggered by messageboards and live your life. I’m not important enough to pay attention to, so you can simply ignore me.

However, if it wasn’t clear… Star Trek Discovery is the worst addition to Star Trek ever. Its best episode is marginally worse than Spock’s Brain, Threshold and Masks. I’m glad you seem to enjoy it though.

Timpani

Oh sweetie- I’m not triggered and I am living my life. To the full. And you’re right… you aren’t important. In fact, you’re actually pretty irritating. I don’t feel the need to endless complain about television shows that I don’t like. Maybe it’s time for you to crawl out from your parents basement and take in the fresh air.

No, Star Trek: Generations is, more so because Ron Moore was involved. Enterprise mailed it in. …and I’ll still enjoy them as part of the entire franchise, of which Discovery is a fitting part of.

They seemed much more pleased with it then you are. I guess your opinion doesn’t carry much weight with the creative department.

ML31

I doubt that. I suspect if they were pleased with it they wouldn’t have had felt the need to transport them 900 years into the future. You don’t attempt to fix what isn’t broken.

Tiger2

I think they all know that Discovery failed IN TERMS OF its setting and hence why they threw it a thousand years into the future. But the show overall still has amazing potential. We did see bits of it in season 2 for sure. Hopefully being in a new era with its own setting they can shape how they want will prove it.

Hopefully!

ML31

You might be correct. The producers seem to show amazingly little respect to the TOS era from everything about Discovery to how they changed nothing for Picard. If that is the case, then they took that show out of the era they hated asap. The flip side of that is they were stuck with the PD they had, and did what they could. They learned from their mistakes when they made Picard but still felt like retconning their version of the Enterprise in Picard to solidify their “new” look. In this case, they moved the show’s time setting mainly because they felt it wasn’t working as is. Not because they felt confined by the prequel status. Similar reasons why Seaquest DSV was moved into the future for their 3rd season. Done mainly to shake up the show and hope more people started watching. The move did not work.

Dvorak

I have a feeling that Picard is the flagship show now.

Tiger2

Well Picard certainly is the flagship show in term of viewership!

“Picard” was up by more than 115% in terms of total streams, when compared to CBS All Access’s first record, which was by its other “Star Trek” show, the less well-received “Star Trek: Discovery.” It was also up by 180+% over “Discovery’s” prior record for subscribers streaming a CBS All Access original.”

Not surprising it would be so much higher but I don’t think any future Trek show is going to get close to what Picard is doing. Maybe the Pike show if it does happen I guess.

As CBSAA rolls out more Trek themed content, some will do better then others. Some will be wildly successful, some will fail (gasp!!) . In the broader picture, it’s all new content, and it’s all good for the health of the franchise.

c d

I am ready for the “Zhaban and Laris” series!

Tiger2

Me too c d, me too! Pre or post Picard I don’t care. These two are great! Now THAT’s a prequel show I would love to watch! ;D

TG47

If Laris and Zhaban don’t get at least a Short Trek between seasons of Picard, I’ll be super disappointed.

Vulcan Soul

It could be the “Mulder and Scully” of Trek! Instantely more watchable than ‘Mission Impossible with delicious Space Hitler’!

odradek

I would prefer that to a Section 31 show. But if they have to do a 31 show they have to put it in a time period where these two could show up as regular characters.

ML31

I still am hoping beyond hope the upcoming Section 31 show is set in the TNG or Picard era. It would be totally out of place in the TOS era.

Tiger2

We’ve already had an entire season of Section 31 in the TOS era, TWICE lol. In both Discovery and STID. I know what you mean but that boat has definitely sailed. To be honest, I hope they just keep MU Georgiou in the 32nd century and have a form of Section 31 there. That way they can literally do whatever they want with the organization like with Discovery.

ML31

There is a concept I haven’t heard before. I’d be down with that. Keep her in the 32nd and set the show there.

Again, I’m not a fan of a section 31 show but if done right it might work. The problem with this version is Evil Georgeau being the primary character in it, however. Hard to get behind that. It really is.

Tiger2

I been suggesting this idea for months now, since the third season trailer really. Everyone is assuming she is going back to the 23rd century (or somewhere else) but once I saw what the story line of third season was and basically rebuilding the Federation, it would make sense a new Section 31 could be part of that IF they wanted to go that direction. I’m not saying that WILL happen obviously but it wouldn’t be a shock that’s what they were thinking and maybe why they took Georgiou with the rest of the crew to the future. Third season could just be setting up her show just as we thought season two was doing.

And this just came to me as well, but maybe if they kept Georgiou in the 32nd century it WILL give her a chance to start fresh and maybe we can see a real turnaround with the character. The problem is once you throw her back in the 23rd century then she either has to keep pretending to be PU Georgiou (which is just dumb) or everyone knows her true identity. But in the 32nd century it won’t matter, all of that is literally ancient history by then and she can start to put her past behind her with a completely clean slate.

ML31

For me, after just two episodes I still don’t know enough about those two to care about them yet.

ML31

It will be tough to match those numbers. I would suspect the show that does would have to have some sort of built in audience like the Picard show had going in. At this point I would think that only a Shatner led show would do it. But that’s not happening.

TG47

kmart, I believe that the production designer for Picard is the same American one that did the initial design for Discovery before Tamara Deverell was asked to take over.

I can’t figure out why TPTB make that choice again given that they wanted a different look and feel for Picard.

Interestingly, Jonathan Lee from the UK is listed as the initial production designer for the S31 show now in preproduction in Toronto. So, we should see something quite different for that show.

DIGINON

Producers often hire people they have worked with before – unless they had a really bad experience with that person.
In theory, a production designer should be able to create more than one look and feel. They may have a specific style but the design is also very much guided by the producers/directors.

kmart

The look of DSC got worse during s1, culminating in that FLASH GORDON 1980 throne room for Empress that looked more like an old PIZZA AND PIPES restaurant I used to frequent in the late 70s. I ascribed a lot of the visual look problems on DSC initially to just the cinematography, and while that is the prime issue (for me anyway), the designs were mostly seriously uninspired. The opening room fight scene in Picard reminded me of a poverty row version of how ALTERED CARBON opened, and very little that followed in that ep engaged me visually. I understand that they aren’t looking for a bold Ken Adam statement designwise, but how about something that is visually exciting rather than just the usual too tall ceilings (which drives me nuts in the Abrams movies too — even the bridge of the ship they use at the end of Lin’s BEYOND has got one of those giant ceiling feels compared to what would be called for with a smaller vessel.)

TG47

kmart, I wonder if we need to keep in mind that super low ceilings are a North American standard.

In Europe, apartments and offices may be small, but the ceilings are tall. Even Soviet-era cookie-cutter apartment blocks in Russia and Eastern Europe have the kind of high ceilings that North Americans associate with the main floors of affluent 19th century houses.

These show are made for a global audience and that may be influencing choices. Why make the camera work difficult with low ceilings if that looks weird to a good part of the audience?

The Collector

Kmart – pls correct me if I’m misrepresenting you…

I think the point is that you look at the NX-Class and it had low ceilings. The Franklin was made the same(ish) time and wasn’t that cramped despite having two fewer decks.

For me, they made a huge mistake in revisiting the TOS era. Canon violations and visual inconsistencies would have been inevitable even for the most devout Trek fan producer working on it… which these showrunners clearly are not, so it’s just been a steaming mess. However, some ‘genius’ thought “hey if we make it close to Kirk and Spock, we could suck up some Kelvin-verse fans”.

Cmd.Bremmon

I’d say the mistake wasn’t revisiting TOS but coming up with bland too large sets that didn’t fit and didn’t put an exciting premium on space on a starship. Example Pikes 1701 bridge with computer screens behind the Captain and 360 within visual sight vs Discovery way too big, can’t put everyone in one scene, hey look at that elevator door behind the Captain. Which one screamed excitement, functional and cool and which one did you have to scream just to talk to your officers since there was no way you were going to read anything off any of those far off displays should you not get shot in the back?

TG47

Cmd Bremmon, it was Tamara Deverell who was production designer for Pike’s 1701 bridge on Discovery vs Todd Cherniawsky who did all the original production design for Discovery pilot and next two S1 episodes.

And now we see that Cherniawsky is listed as production designer for Picard.

That is, Cherniawsky designed both the enormous Discovery bridge and the La Sirena.

Tiger2

I never cared about the size of bridges but even for me both the Discovery and now the La Sirena’s bridge look comically huge. And I don’t like the look of the La Sirena at all but I will probably get use to it like the Discovery which I’m still not a huge fan of.

Tiger2

I agree The Collector, that was the show’s biggest mistake IMO as well and that was putting the show in the TOS era. It never should’ve been placed there in the first place and thankfully they are reconciling their mistake. It doesn’t mean it be a better show but it will be a more interesting one for many for sure. And certainly less issues over canon.

kmart

I’m not thinking in present-day terrestrial terms, I’m talking a spaceship where space is a premium, and having huge overheads is utterly wasteful. I suppose century 24 Starfleet has space to waste with its tech unleashed thing, but that wouldn’t apply to privateers and such.

I always have a problem with too-tall ceilings on spaceships (David Gerrold made a point about TOS engineering way way back) owing to this, PLUS there’s the artistic aspect that you are losing the submarine feel when you go spacious, which feels aesthetically wrong to me. The appeal of the NOSTROMO is that it has all sorts of interesting angle and shapes and you can see up down and all around by looking down a corridor, because the ceiling is (too) close, and that reinforces the notion that it is a real vessel.

My 2nd (and these days, third) job is writing about film/tv production, and I can tell you that nearly every camera operator I interview says that while it is awkward and difficult working in real locations where the walls and ceiling are locked in and can’t be moved, that the end result is more than worth the trouble, so the behind-the-camera issue of shooting in close confines is not the factor it once was (probably because the cameras have gotten so small, and recently, that the new cameras like the Venice can be detached from the lens, so all you have to slot in there is the lens itself, with the camera elsewhere.)

TG47

I get where you’re coming from kmart.

I was thinking however that too claustrophobic NATO submarine style aesthetics would make for more of an old standard definition look.

Think of the American vs Russian subs in The Hunt for Red October. Not that I would imagine a Russian nuclear submarine as a work of art like the Red October, but the two sets do give a sense of the comparative possibilities regardless of new cameras.

kmart

I remember a Thomas Doherty review in CINEFANTASTIQUE that was probably about RED OCTOBER stating ‘scope is made for submarine movies.’ I think it stuck with me because the low ceiling plays into that appreciation for the widescreen format, which is now seeing action on the tube with the current TV set aspect ratio. So I’d think the overheads would figure more prominently in compositions if the prod des brought them down. Otherwise, in order to see them, you’ve got to move the camera back, diminishing cred in favor of spectacle (an ORVILLE and DSC problem), or be down on the floor shooting up somebody’s nose (which is fine for me, it often worked for Welles, Kubrick and Frankenheimer), which they seem loathe to do much of in the eps I’ve seen.

Phillip Thorne

What it looks like (engineering-wise) is that the _Sirena_ is a single compartment, with the two-deck cargo space predominating, with the engine(?) aft and the operator’s station forward — which might be a reasonable design for a solo vessel (does Rios usually have a crew?) in an era of reliable force-field partitions (personally, I’m a fan of solid airtight bulkheads). You’d expect some other spaces in a ship (bunks, head, replicator niche, airlock), but I’ve seen no photos cluing us in to those set-design choices.

At a guess, the director(?) demanded a dramatic space with options for walk-and-talking and backgrounds, which a sensible-cramped bridge wouldn’t supply. Consider _Voyager’s_ main engineering, with a superfluity of consoles on two levels, so characters have something to fiddle with.

A34

I like those uniforms better.

Steve

Whoever names these CBS Star Trek characters needs firing. “Raffi Musiker”?

c d

“Michael Burnham” was taken.

Cmd.Bremmon

You know these names are rather anti feminine. You don’t see any males characters named Michelle or Rachel.

odradek

There is a guy called Bruce in it.

TG47

Cmd Bremmon, you have a point, although Raffi is the only name I’ve noticed in Picard so far.

When androgynous names are only used for female characters, rather than strengthening or empowering women, it can suggest that women with feminine expression aren’t up to the task (another kind of sexism, and gender determinism).

Michael as a name for the lead character was reportedly based on Bryan Fuller’s preference for giving female characters typically male names.

Bottom line: not enough instances to be able to conclude it’s a pattern, but something to note.

Last, I agree with others that like many parents who’ve experienced toddler/preschooler music, Raffi as a name makes me think of classic children’s folk songs on infinite replay – so in this case, it’s not making me think of a strong masculine character.

Webguest

Raffi could be short for Rafaela. Musiker means “musician” in German. Not sure if it’s a real last name in Germany though.

yrch

Yes, in German it means ‘musician’, but as a name it seems, it is not used. I found this: https://www.familysearch.org/en/surname?surname=Musiker

Webguest

I thought the name could be of Jewish origin, and there was a Professor Reuben Musiker in South Africa https://www.sajr.co.za/extras/test/2016/01/20/reuben-musiker—librarian-and-musicologist-of-note who seems to have been active in the Jewish community. According to the description of his books on Amazon, he was a Professor of Librarianship and Bibliography, with a lifelong passionate interest in studying music :-). The name Raffaela seems to exist in Italy and Germany.

Steve

Have you seen Discovery, and how many Strong Female Characters™ there are in that show? The whole show is a giant SJW safe haven, and I suspect Picard will be the same.

DeanH

When I saw the name of the actor who played the mother in one of the most wholesome All-American 1970s tv shows made called The Waltons, I realized a woman can have the name Michael and it was not a problem. I am a little surprised some still find it an issue almost 50 years later.

I guarantee that if you Google “Raffi Musiker” you’re not going to hit any real-life person. THAT is why she has that name.

Marja

I can’t help but wonder if she was named for that children’s musician

odradek

Because Musiker is the German word for musician?

Kiān Hāfezi

Fukdamn it someone is always bitching about some bullshit here,
This all looks exciting and fun to me

Timpani

Welcome to Trekmovie.

Harry Ballz

Kian……………..you’ll do. Welcome aboard.

Ruue

Yes there is so much negativity here. It is good to have high standards and expectations but it is not good if a Hand full of frequent posters poison the mood.
Love the uniform design of 2385. not as good as the FC design but very good still. Also very much like the Design of 2399. in fact for me everything about Picard is better than DIS.

Vulcan Soul

“Picard is better than DIS.”

By all means, that’s not a high bar to pass though is it ;)

Timpani

You’re literally making Ruue’s point, VS.

We get it. You don’t like DIS. You’ve made that very *VERY* clear. It’s getting really boring at this point. Seriously.

Vulcan Soul

My hope is that one day TPTB are getting so annoyed by the complaints that they improve it! Foolish hope, I know ;)

The Collector

Just ignore VS’s comment and all anti-DIS comments. Don’t feed the trolls… even if they are absolutely correct :-P

ML31

Because everyone who sees flaws in Discovery is a troll. (eyeroll)

The Collector

Just as disclaimer, ML31, I was being tongue-in-cheek when writing that. I hate Discovery. If you take away some of the cast (Sonequa, Doug, Anthony, Anson and a small handful of the others) and the cinematography, it is nothing short of an abomination of a show. Forget not lining up with canon, it even contradicts itself within the same episode and yet somehow people defend its nonsense. It’s bewildering!

It’s like some were so badly starved of small screen Trek, they see this garbage as prime Inner Light, Balance of Terror, In the Pale Moonlight.

ML31

Fair enough. I found most of the characters in Discovery to be bereft on interest but worse, the writing and plotting was nauseating to an astonishing degree. To be honest, if the characters and stories were engaging I could look beyond the plot holes and canon violations. Which, I’m sorry to say, are numerous.

kmart

Calling Vulcan Soul a troll is a trollish opinion, and utterly wrongheaded on your part. Just because he is butting his head against a neutronium wall doesn’t mean he is anything other than well-intentioned, just as I have been when engaged in the same thankless task. Somebody has to comment on the Emperor’s clothes.

Vulcan Soul

Thanks! And just so y’all know, I will give Discovery a THIRD chance and watch its THIRD reboot this spring! Their problem has never been being devoid of interesting and fresh premises, but delivering upon their promises and creating something meaningful, consistent and respectful that doesnt insult its audience (or parts of it). As someone else commented, if this show wasn’t broken, they wouldn’t keep trying to fix it, right?

Right on cue….

ML31

“in fact for me everything about Picard is better than DIS.”

I agree (after just two episodes but that assessment can change in the coming weeks) but that comment can be misleading as that is a VERY low standard to set.

Yep, it’s Tuesday. Someone will complain about that. Enjoy!!

c d

It’s Tuesday, darn it. Not Thursday yet.

odradek

“The Borgs belch me up
Starfleet spit me out
From AI’s tragic I am born again
And now I’m with you now…”

Tim

YEEESS !!! I like Flashbacks .

GermanTrekkie

Strikes me as odd they both have the same Padd in the (supposed) Flashback scene.
… maybe they carry their respective resignation letters on them.

tony

men/women on a mission.
‘i know a guy’.

tony

men/women on a mission.
‘i know a guy’

Vulcan Soul

Wait a minute – could it be that Hugh is that ominous “Borg cube research project executive director”? That’s what I’m getting from the synopsis and his prominent interaction with Soji in those pictures!

Bamasi

Wasn’t Hugh the borg she operated on last week. The eyepiece looked awfully familiar.

GermanTrekkie

No. They said he is actually going to be the director (Hugh, not the “Nameless” Guy)

Vulcan Soul

So I was right after all :)

matt barnes

It it just me, or do the uniforms (not just in this picture, but all of the ones we’ve seen including the “dream sequence” ones in the premiere) just not seem as well-made as they were in TNG, DS9 or VOY? They don’t seem to fit right and just feel like cosplay uniforms I’d see at a convention.

DIGINON

Many Trek actors have complained that the uniforms were extremely uncomfortable to wear. I think even some of the Discovery actors have made comments to that effect. Maybe they made the uniforms on Picard less tight to make it more comfortable for Stewart et al.

I have a box full of my son’s Navy uniforms in my garage. Everything you’ve ever seen on Trek is a costume, all cosplay suitable. To some degree or another.

Jack

I’m surprised Picard would be pro synthetic research if those synthetics were seemingly being used as, essentially, slaves/a disposable workforce. Hoping the show will comment on this.

Wish the show would move faster with less padding, but am enjoying it.

The uniforms are fine, IMO.

Chancellor Gowron

I would imagine that he did not support that particular use of Synthetics.

TG47

The thing I’m struggling with is that Picard had a major leadership role in preparing the ‘armada of rescue ships’.

I can see his comfort with androids, and LaForge’s too I’d he was a lead on the engineering side (as some report). What I can’t see is either Picard or LaForge being responsible for the establishment of a work environment with systematic mistreatment of synthetics.

Something doesn’t add up here, and it’s so blatant that it suggests that there are some very important elements of the background story yet to be revealed.

ML31

Seems to me the one who mistreated the synthetics was the one (or ones) who programmed them to rebel and then blow their own brain circuits out.

Cmd.Bremmon

Star Trek Picard has shown Picard is a failure at defending Sector 001 and a hypocrite a-ok with synthetics being used as slaves in the pursuit of perfect androids like Data when not at his private privileged family estate. The Emperor has no clothes! PERFECT!!! I LOVE THIS SHOW!

gingerly

It’s really weird that everyone is assuming the synthetics were slaves, when that hasn’t been implied at all.

I think they were essentially, added crew on a probationary basis,-given so many being there at once, untested.

Legate Damar

Well, they were all locked in a box when not in use, had numbers on their heads, and were described by their co-workers as not being people. It does sound like they didn’t really have the option to resign and pursue their own interests.

Tiger2

Yeah, but its no different than the EMH when they are shut off when they are not in use because until the Doctor people just looked at the EMH as advanced software, not an actual life. That was one of the things Voyager did right, it showed that even in this period people still deemed AI as a computer the way we do our phones today.

Data was really the exception in many ways, mostly because he came off the most life liked and was self aware. He could make his own choices, learn and adapt. I don’t think these androids are self aware. They really act like programmed machines with just a hint of a personality.

BUT I also think that’s where the show is going as well. That maybe once you create a machine that is meant to mimic a human, how far does that go? Do you start to give them rights and freedoms or do you just treat them as machines that was just design to function and not to actually live? Clearly Starfleet considers them the latter. But OBVIOUSLY we know that’s going to be the focus of the show and why we’e even talking about Bruce Maddox now. I’m SO happy this is the direction the show is going in. I always wanted these types of stories in Star Trek.

But I think this is exactly the debate they wanted! And I’m NOT trying to harp on Discovery, but it is surprising how (at least it seems) for Picard they are going for a more philosophical approach dealing with AI and a grey area where Star Trek does VERY well in at times. But then on DIS we got the very tired blunt force Terminator rip off with CONTROL and there was NO nuance about that story line at all. It was just typical ‘all humans are bad, must be destroyed’ generic story line you get over and over again EVERYWHERE ELSE.

I ALWAYS have to make this as a disclaimer I guess and say I do like DIS more now but its EXACTLY story lines like that why so many people still don’t. If they approached it beyond generic sci fi and a bit more ‘Star Trek’ that could’ve been an amazing AI story too.

Cmd.Bremmon

Your right – Beverly Crusher and Picard in keeping the Enterprise-E EMH off was sentencing that lifeform were engaged in slavery keeping it locked away. All those TNG starship crews are guilty of slavery!!!

Tiger2

Sometimes its like you’re trolling. I’m not saying you are, but yeah.

ML31

I agree but ONLY if the show doesn’t preach to the audience and tell them how they should feel, as Measure of a Man did. But my guess is that as Picard feels, that is how the show wants the audience to feel. Which would NOT be a good place for the show to go. At all.

Cmd.Bremmon

The show has gone there (EMH, engineered androids = life) and to think other wise is to discriminate. In that case Picard and Crusher are guilty of slavery in having an EMH and holding sentient life in captivity by keeping the EMH off in ST: FC.

Disinvited

Cmd.Bremmon,

It is not the premise of STAR TREK or its Federation that ALL life should be free within its governance. Only sufficiently self-aware advanced enough, i.e. evolved, to be held responsible for its actions life qualify for the rights, including freedom, of Federation citizenship.

While the EMH of VOYAGER was modified, which allowed it to evolve to a level where we can argue it has a right to demand emancipation under the legal precedence of Data, the EMH of FIRST CONTACT never got that upgrade so never could or would evolve to the point where it could even conceive of making such a request – let alone comprehend all its ramifications and responsibilities.

A better candidate for emancipation might be the Andy Dick Mark (4?) EMH which had significant interaction and likely even shared code space in its ship’s memory with Voyager’s EMH?

ML31

My question would be why would the EMH on the E-E be different from the EMH on Voyager beyond potentially being a newer version? If the original could become sufficiently self aware and evolved then why couldn’t that one? It’s a can of worms they opened.

Disinvited

ML31,

Boy my love of Voyager’s plot minutia is not anywhere near that of the first Trek’s, but if I recall correctly their EMH had some sort of existential crisis where they had to ship him off to Barclay and somehow it or Barclay got him somehow to face his creator, whose face he bears, a Dr. Zimmerman, where his creator tried to flush him out and deactivate him because Starfleet had washed out that model of EMH as not living up to expectations and became a supreme embarassment to him because they relegated all his active EMHs as being only fit for the menialest of tasks, i.e. essentially janitors.

The episode was spent w/Voy EMH trying to convince his creator that he was activively meeting and exceeding his original medical functions and it wasn’t just some other failure mode in the model creating a delusion that it was serving its function and worthy of his creator tending to whatever deterioration needed fixing.

ML31

My point is, the EMH on the E-E, which presumably was commissioned after Voyager, likely would have a newer version of the EMH. Which I suppose could still look like Zimmerman but they did have that Andy Dick one later…

Disinvited

ML31,

In researching this it was even weirder an episode than I was able to recall. The crisis was that Zimmerman was dying and Barclay was able to determine from Voyager’s EMH medical logs that Z’s incurable disease was similar to something that the V’s EMH had encountered and cured. Z did as I said but absolutely refused to let the V’s EMH examine or treat him because of the reasons I mentioned.

Z didn’t use his image on the Mark II and later models because he was absolutely and continually humiliated by all Mark I’s doing menial tasks bearing his visage – he did not want any possible future models’ failures further increasing the chances of running into himself performing what he regarded as subserviant and menial tasks below his dignity.
.
Barclay, with the help of Troi, worked out a con without telling the EMH. They worked out after some counseling from her between the 2 “doctors” that if B introduced a novel and interesting enough glitch into V’s EMH, Z would be fascinated enough by the puzzle long enough that EMH could examine Z without his noticing. The 2 ended up fixing each other.

Also, as I recall, Crusher gave every indication, in the movie, when she activated her E-E’s EMH that it was every bit as disdained as Zimmerman indicated led to the Mark I’s eventual recall from medical service.

ML31

I don’t really see how any of that denies anything I just said above.

For the record, when Crusher activated the EMH to act as a “doorstop” my impression wasn’t that she was irritated with the Mark I’s. But rather then entire concept of an EMH to begin with.

Disinvited

ML31,

Not sure what you mean by “denial”? It answers your question/supposition on why Zimmerman didn’t use his visage on any of the other later models. Also, explains why none of the upgrades to the standard Mark I that you expected during the V’s EMH abscence from the standard upgrade cycle ever approached Torres’ modifications success.

Also, according to Memory-Alpha, Zimmerman offered to upgrade VOY EMH to the Mark IV and displayed a moment of being pleased with himself when they insisted they were satisfied with their Mark I and demanded Z return him.

Disinvited

ML31,

“denial” should read “denies.”

ML31

Probably because they didn’t have the capacity to do all that. They were just tools. No different from a tricorder or crowbar. Did anyone ever give the tricorder a chance to decide if it wanted to resign and pursue it’s own interests?

Tim

Another Question is how the Federation is thinking now about Holograms? The same argument on Synthetics could affect the status of Holograms like the Doctor.

Maybe thats why Picardo seems to appear on season 2 !

Cmd.Bremmon

Seems likely that if you can engineer life for an electronic robotic form that you also can engineer life for a hologram form.

Vulcan Soul

“I’m surprised Picard would be pro synthetic research if those synthetics were seemingly being used as, essentially, slaves/a disposable workforce.”

With the real world analogy being big, greedy AF corporations being “pro-immigrant” because they can pay them less and/or let them work in unsafe, unhealthy and dirty menial jobs that Americans wouldn’t do (they even bring up the latter point as justification, amazingly). There was a time when real socialists were against importing de facto slave labor, but that was before globalization and them profiting of it. Curious to see if Picard will comment on THAT too ;)

ST:EXP

I’m hoping for a stronger 3rd episode and beyond. 1st episode was a great opening. I wanted so bad to like the 2nd episode and so much fell apart for me that is indicative of how this franchise is treated now.

High-minded morality forced on us through all the series… sooo many episodes about Data’s rights… slavery allegories… even with the Doctor on Voyager… and what happens? A decade later the Federation creates a whole host of androids to become slaves… and then the staff sits there and openly belittles them?? What?

– Over-the-top unbelievable tech in the Boston apartment that literally re-creates the crime scene
– Picard being shocked at finding out the twin sister is off-planet… on Star Trek. Everyone is off-planet on Star Trek… it’s Star Trek.
– Yet *another* set of covert and/or corrupt admirals at Starfleet Headquarters.
– The unnecessary use of the F word to seem trendy and edgy. Throwing out the upscale dialogue of TNG.
– Starfleet apparently ignoring stuff like this guy literally went *back in time* to ensure First Contact happened… but at best he gets a courtesy meeting.
– The android sister that gets down on the first date and then just puts her boots on and goes to work.

There’s just a whole mess of things here that don’t make sense. Of course the franchise can evolve and they don’t have to imitate the past, but there are some pre-established conventions you’d think you would want to observe. That’s the whole reason TNG was so explosively revered and this current series can even exist… half of the characters observed in Picard in the first two episodes are so hostile and angry.

gingerly

TNG crew openly teased Data too. It’s consistent. It definitely didn’t seem bad natured. They literally told him a few jokes.

Pergoritives are adverbs. Any positive or negative inflection comes from how it’s used. i.e “f yeah that’s great!” vs. “oh f. nooo!” Only children still see them as “bad words”.

Yeah, people are more progressive and pragmatic about sex in the future. Seems, hopeful and plausible.

You have nostalgia goggles on. Everything about this show is consistent with Trek.

Vulcan Soul

“half of the characters observed in Picard in the first two episodes are so hostile and angry.”

The Discoverization of Trek. I will say that a marked improvement at least is daring to have female leaders who are as openly weak as they are antagonistic, as both the CNC and head of security are apparently being played. That’s a far cry from Discovery’s pitch-perfect Mary Sues and “delicious” Space Hitler beyond any doubts.

'Drew

Maybe I’ve been playing too much STO, but those black streaks below the shoulders were begging for the rank insignia to be placed there instead of on the collar.

ANTONIO SOUZA

We’ll finally meet the “Seven-Lights Ship” XD

Duncan Macleod

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS

will

Why do the uniforms fit them so poorly? Has the costume department never fitting a costume to someone before?