‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 1 Episode 8 Spoiler Discussion

We’ll have a review up later on, but for now this is a spot to discuss the episode with your fellow Trekkies.

“Broken Pieces” — Episode #108 — Pictured (l-r): Isa Briones as Soji; Sir Patrick Stewart as Jean-Luc Picard of the CBS All Access series STAR TREK: PICARD. Photo Cr: Trae Patton/CBS ©2019 CBS Interactive, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

For people have haven’t seen the episode yet… stay away from the comments of this article.

 

Episode title: “Broken Pieces”

Synopsis: When devastating truths behind the Mars attack are revealed, Picard realizes just how far many will go to preserve secrets stretching back generations, all while the La Sirena crew grapples with secrets and revelations of their own. Narissa directs her guards to capture Elnor, setting off an unexpected chain of events on the Borg cube.


The new episode of Star Trek: Picard premieres today at 12:01 AM PT/3:01 AM ET on CBS All Access in the USA and on Crave in Canada, and then it will air later today on CTV Sci-Fi Channel at 6PM PT /9PM ET. It will be made available on Amazon Prime Video for the rest of the world on Friday morning.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Picard news at TrekMovie.

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KeoniKahn

Dare I say I’m sad about the Borg? Though the Rios’s rocked!

Guess I am a Trekkie now

So is it true? Does Raffi activate all the holograms?

Thorny

Including one we hadn’t seen yet.

Hauke Fischer

Well Rios activated them all so he could go sulk in his cabin (understandably).

Marja

Too bad Seven wasn’t able to activate them. But then, she may have found it hard to separate herself later.

Begs the question though: if Narissa was able to solve the Borg problem by spacing them, why didn’t Starfleet do it? Principles?

Agree with you on the Rioses, though his Irish accent sucks :^D I love his others. Probably got the Scottish by watching old TOS, LOL

YKeeg

We never had “full control” of a cube. Not the kind of thing you can just Goldblum into and do to an enemy ship.

Agreed that the Irish accent is a teensy bit overdone.

I’m taking it that, since these are all facets of Rios’ own personality, the accents are also all his.

They aren’t authentic, and don’t need to be.

They’re just his ideas of what the accents should be, with Emet’s dialectical Spanish also being Rios’ own.

YKeeg

That’s a very good point… and makes it funnier! Nicely done!

Marja

Indeed, thanks for that!

TG47, this is excellent head canon regarding Rios’ accents. I may adopt it.

J.L.J.

This one definitely felt like a let down after the last two that were excellent. I did find it odd that they’d leave Soji alone with Dr. Jurati in sickbay knowing that Jurati had been compromised by Oh so dramatically that she killed Maddox because of her fear of synthetic life.

Holden

I enjoyed it, but it definitely felt like a “bottle” episode. Put the major characters together in tight quarters and provide a lot of backstory to get everyone caught up in time for the finale.

Soji can take care of herself.

ML31

The scary part is that she just might at any time for ANY reason.

ML31

It felt odd to me that Agnes would MURDER a friend/lover over a fear of AI universal insurrection yet once she interacts with one that same fear 100% vanishes. But such quick character turnarounds are more common in film/TV than I’d like.

Perhaps Jurati rid herself of more than just the trackers with that near lethal injection.

She seems to be able to overcome some of the compulsions now.

ML31

Are you saying she was “brainwashed” into it?

German Trekkie

I just thought, maybe Jurati is there to make the point, that people do horrible things out of diffuse fears.

ML31

I thought she was given the AI annihilation vision as motivation to stop Maddux. But after she met the living AI that horrid vision suddenly carried no weight. It really makes no sense.

Marja

Maybe after Jurati cancelled the effect of the implant by poison she disabled its brainwashing capability?

It is a bit of a mystery, bc they only referenced its tracking capability being destroyed by her injection

Ensign Crusher

We’ve seen Romulans use mind control techniques to get humans (Geordi) to attempt to kill people before

ML31

I wasn’t questioning the possibility of a brainwash. It’s just that it wasn’t hinted at. What it looked like to the viewer was she was given the vision and that was enough for her to be convinced what she was doing was the right thing to do. If she had been brainwashed it would make more sense that after “snapping out of it” she would realize what she did and would suddenly be impressed with interacting with a living AI. So if it was a brainwash then it really seems to be and editing or director error as it was presented to be something else entirely. And that includes the “if you knew what I know” thing.

Marja

ML31, If she had been brainwashed it would make more sense that after “snapping out of it” she would realize what she did and would suddenly be impressed with interacting with a living AI.

I think you’re right. Some brainwashing reinforcement perhaps was included in that little blue “pill”

Editing error methinks. Jurati was wowed by Soji.

I’m wondering ML31 whether there was some kind of chemical reinforcement of the blocks and compulsions that Oh implanted with the transferred vision.

Agnes had been showing profound biological indicators of a ‘psychiatric emergency’, sufficient to trigger the activation of the EMH on two separate occasions.

Now, however she is subdued. We don’t see the extreme stress and internal conflict.

So, I’m thinking either some chemical reinforcement has been eradicated with the tracker, or that the EMH has administered some kind of sedative.

Elrond

There is precedent for the Vulcan Mind Meld to be used coercively. As a mild example, in TOS, “The Armaggedon Game” Spock implants a suspicion in the mind of a guard. More disturbingly, Spock effectively mentally “rapes” Valeris to wrench information from her in ST-VI. There are other examples, too. So it is easily conceivable that the obsessive Cmdr. Oh could implant a similar obsession in Agnes. After all, Agnes states that Oh implanted a mental block to prevent her from talking about the experience.

His Eminence

I saw Agnes’ compulsion to kill Maddox as having been given not only the visions from Oh, but her motivations and emotions from them, too.

Remember the mind meld between Sarek and Picard. They shared much more than just memories and visions. Picard was completely overcome by Sarek’s emotions regarding people and events in his life.

ML31

That was different. Sarek had a disease. Also it’s one thing to feel something. It’s an entirely different level to act. Especially something one wouldn’t normally do.

ML31

Or conversely… It could just be a writing flaw. I think that is most likely.

shiro

That was a great episode. Went by too quickly.

Scott

Great show and episode. Wish there was more done with the Borg plot line, but I’m sure it will come to the synth planet to kick some Romulan a$$! Rios holos, superb, esp when all together. Nice, minimal fan service, but it is the lore. Can’t wait for the last two, wish there was more…

Partha

This was a very interesting episode. The title ‘Broken Pieces’ really does describe these characters well,every one of them is missing something. Soji is missing her identity, Raffi is missing the last pieces of the conspiracy, Jurati is only realizing what she has done, Rios is missing his sense of right and wrong as his disillusionment with Starfleet seems complete. Just when it all looks really bad with the Federation turning its back on its ideals, The Romulans hoping to exterminate a whole new form of life Picard gives us a spark of optimism. This is the Picard who has risen up,from hiding in his farm in France to finally tapping into some of his old optimism and sense of exploration. The last five minutes made the whole episode worth it

1) I liked the symbolism of the mess table. First it was Soji and Picard and by then end of the episode the entire crew was at the table. As if all the broken pieces had come together

2) For those of you who wonder how a half-Romulan /half-Vulcan got into Starfleet, a precedence was set in TNG’s The Drumhead

3) Who created this artificial life and the eight star system? What happened that was so terrible? Plus it seems like ceremony at the beginning of the episode had images of Airnam and Data. If they were playing a record of destruction how would a civilization tens of thousands of years old have information about the far future?

4) Admiral Clancy was excellent in this episode. She did do the right thing.

5) I actually felt very sad for the Borg. They died without even the ability to defend themselves.

Can’t wait for next week.

2) There’s also Saavik, although her heritage is dubious in terms of its canonicity. I don’t think it’s ever spelled out onscreen. I’d still count it, though.

Gary Newman

3) – Could it have been the Iconians?

Timpani

When Raffi mentioned that somebody had moved stars my immediate thought was the Tkon!

The River Temarc

Yup. The Tkon.

martin

How do you know that Clancy was on JL’s side? You sure she wasn’t just sending Oh to go arrest him and sieze the La Sienna?

blackmocco

Pretty obvious the fleet is going to be there to destroy the synth homeworld.

Partha

But if that is the case why should Clancy tell JL anything? She could say ‘we wont do anything about this,you’re on your own’ and then she would have the element of surprise on her side.

martin

>>But if that is the case why should Clancy tell JL anything?<<

1) Clancy thought JL was going to DS12, that is where they were to meet up.

2) Clancy may have given JL hope for backup, when really it was a trick to arrest him and capture Soji

3) Even if Clancy intends on sending fleet for backup, at the time of the transmission, JL does not know of Oh's instructions to Jurati, and that Oh is a Romulan agent. Clancy may very well send Oh as the head of the squadron to back JL – intending to help, but of course Oh would just be there to take out the homeworld and Soji.

martin, my thoughts on this are the same as yours.

Clancy had no idea that Oh has another agenda. Whatever squadron is tasked will have the same black flag orders as did the in Magid.

My only quibble was that Rios, Raffi and Picard did not immediately propose a change of course and plan when they had confirmation that Starfleet had been infiltrated at the command level.

Thorny

Do they know where to go? They were going to meet Picard at DS12, now Picard’s not going there.

martin

If Clancy put Oh in charge of the squadron to back JL, then Oh knows where to go, because Narek follows them through the conduit. It’s only 25 light years apparently, so it’s not shaving THAT much time off.

ML31

I would hope so but if that was the case it would have been wise to keep JL as far from that as she could. She knew he would just screw up that plan if he were there.

Partha

Quite possible but if that were the case then why tell him that anyone is comming? Just have DS12 arrest and detain Picard and the La Sienna? Why even have Oh arrest him? Any Starfleet security squad could have secured Picard and company.

ML31

3) Some ancient civilization who dabbled in AI and obviously came to regret it. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Seems the Romulans have. Picard hasn’t.

4) I disagree. If the goal is to stop the obliteration of a planet full of AI’s then the decision to stop it was the WRONG decision. By far. It would be ensuring their own destruction.

Now that I think about it there is potential for STD S3 to be linked to STP S1. If they stop the AI obliteration and the ban is lifted we could very well see the fall of the Federation at the hands for the synths in STD S3.

TonyD

It would be quite a kick in the teeth to twist Picard’s legacy that way, making him the unwitting architect of the Federation’s downfall.

TNG never imprinted itself on my like TOS did so it matters little to me but I think Trek fans in general would probably hate that kind of twist.

ML31

I’m with you TonyD in that Picard is The Picard and cannot be on the wrong side of things. But in this case, it is obvious to me that the writers and producers and Stewart himself see him as being on the right side but in fact, as this situation is presented he is undoubtedly on the wrong side of the issue. Even without the added info of 200000 years ago. That just adds to the mountain of evidence in the Trek world that there should be no further AI advancement. In fact, as far as I can tell, even the E-D’s computer is borderline AI and ought to be dumbed down some just in case.

Marja

I think it was Romulans who designed the synths in the first place.

The name “Admonition” seems to me to indicate that future generations of Romulans from the Admonition’s time of origin are to refrain from messing about with synths.

noraa

Another excellent episode. It really seems that Picard is peaking (quality wise) as we race toward the finish.

stanlowcrickets888

Excellent indeed, The slow burn storyline has ramped up and things are gelling together! Hope to see some federation ships and the Cube of Seven-Annaka warp to the rescue in next episode or the final as they battle for the Synth Homeworld planet against the Zhat Vash-Romulans.

Marja

I’m pretty sure Ep 10 is going to be a cliffhanger.

Just Another Salt Vampire

So is it a logical assumption that the synthetic lifeforms created 300,000 years ago became the Borg?

I don’t think so. Why go for assimilation if you’re the whole package already?

Just Another Salt Vampire

Maybe they weren’t as well-developed as they thought and developed assimilation as a solution to their limitations?

Another question is who created the octo-star system warning beacon against synths?

shiro

Maybe it is Burnham and the Discovery crew that travel back in time… hahaha.

The Old Ones. Ruk’s creators! I’d love that to be the answer!

Just Another Salt Vampire

That would be cool.

shiro

Forgot that. Yes, that would be neat!

YKeeg

YUUUUP! I was thinking the same!

YKeeg

I think whoever or whatever became or created the Borg encountered this society, found it to be a perfect society, and strived to become more like them (with disastrous results). They did say they were aspiring to perfection.

So where is this octanary(?) star system? They needed a TW conduit to get there, so maybe it’s far enough away that it’s in the delta quadrant, which would jive with the Borg’s origins.

But if “Crandall” has been there… either it’s not in the Delta Quadrant… or “Rupert” has a silent Q in it. Q-Bert Crandall? Huh? Huuuuuuh?

martin

They were going to Soji’s homeworld through the transwarp conduit. Maddox had been there, so it isn’t terribly far away.

YKeeg

Aha. Excellent point!

The Borg had more than one Transwarp conduit network, and we know that the one Janeway destroyed had outlets in the Alpha Quadrant.

So, it’s not unreasonable to think that one of the other networks had Beta Quadrant outlets.

Nachum

Wasn’t the opening scene set on the octonary planet?

YKeeg

See, this is where I think I got confused. I chalk it up to having seen the episode one time upon waking hurriedly and watching the clock to make sure I wasn’t late for work (and I was… by like 20 minutes).

Is Soji’s homeworld IN the octonary system, or is this a completely different place? The “Admonition”… I think THAT was in the octonary system, because it was a big signpost saying “LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME and oh also check out this brain-wrecking ring we made”? I think I brain-mashed two entirely different systems, but realize only now that they’re not, and can’t be, the same thing.

God, I’m getting old. Looking forward to the rewatch(es).

Just Another Salt Vampire

The confusion is understandable. There was a lot of dense technobabble.

The octonary system is somewhere different than Soji’s home world. Within the octonary system is a planet with a 3000,000 year old warning about the dangers of synths. That planet is where the opening of the episode with the Romulans is.

My question is about Maddox’s claim that the Tal Shiar / Zhat Vash had utterly destroyed the lab he funded with a loan from Bjayzl.

If he had another, more secret main site, why come to Bjayzl at all?

My guess is that there is another twist to come on that point.

Marja

Nachum, I think so, and it was named “The Planet of Grief”

I still think Crandall will be played by Ian McKellen and will somehow show up with one of the Riker/Trois in episode 9 or 10.

Marja

TG47, Talk about a Special Guest Star!

bassmaster22

Hopefully we will never know. We don’t need the Borg retconned.

Winston

Where does the Romulan female group of 8 find the memory bank?

That’s in the Octanary system (the one with eight suns)

ray

“are you going to assimilate me now?” Best line ever

stanlowcrickets888

I’m sure there were other Trekkies thinking the same thing… to be assimilated by Seven!

TonyD

Resistance would truly be futile :)

Brad

Count me in – resistance is unnecessary

ML31

That whole thing with 7 I found to be odd. I thought she was purged of as many Borg bits as possible while still ensuring her survival. Which were quite a few. Yet now it seems that she still had a plethora of Borg bits stuck all over her. So many that should could EASILY link physical connections AND serve as a Queen to the collective. That feels over the top. When in fact the logical thing would be that over the last 20 years the tech would be available to remove even MORE of the Borg bits. Honestly she shouldn’t have even had the face pieces any longer. Picard was assimilated. How much Borg does he still have in him? Perhaps a ton more than we ever thought? And why does he have no outside pieces remaining like Anika and Hugh have?

'Drew

Picard was assimilated at an old age and only very briefly. First Contact showed he still had some implants, though there is no clear indications s to how many, I think we can safely say it’s well less than Seven.

It was mentioned several times on Voyager that Seven’s body grew up almost entirely dependent on the Borg technology, and it couldn’t adjust to its total absence. Picard also offers additional information that the younger a person is when assimilated, the more thorough a job can be done. While it’s possible he pulled that line out of his ass, it was made by a writer. As such, it’s more likely the line was slipped in to support that story element in this episode.

ML31

I seriously doubt his age changes the total implants he has. Quite frankly, until First Contact I think it was assumed that all the Borg bits were successfully removed. But for him to still hear Borg whispers means it was still possible he had SOMETHING left in him. And again, I would think that over time he would have them removed. And also again, why did 7 and Hugh have remains all over them yet Picard did not? Seems inconsistent. I think it is because we cannot have the hero with Borg parts on his face yet 7 had to have something to continually remind the viewers she was once Borg. And your explanation does not take into account the very real probability that in time there would be medical advances that would enable the removal of at least SOME of the external components.

We’ve seen that children who are assimilated are put into maturation chambers with accelerated development.

That accelerated development involved integration of more Borg technology.

e.g. When Icheb returned to his homeworld (Voyager) his age mates were still preteens although he was a late adolescent. His parents were surprised at how developed he was and tried to treat him like a younger child, because less than a year had passed.

ML31

True about the maturation chambers. But they had considerably less Borg stuff on them than their adult counterparts.

Just mentioning how Icheb had grown doesn’t mean he aged faster. I do not recall anything being mentioned about his former playmates now being physically younger than him. In fact, I do not recall anything being mentioned about Borg aging faster than anyone else. Where was it mentioned in one of the shows? I’m honestly not interested if it were in a non canon novel.

YKeeg

I wonder if Icheb’s harvested components utterly JACKED UP anything they were connected to due to his genetic tampering…

Marja

Yes, the reason Bjayzl was hunting certain XBs for implants was because they had been assimilated at a younger age than others. The younger the assimilated person, the more implants they had.

ML31

It seems like it would be the other way around…

See, there are some cool things that you missed in Voyager ML31.

ML31

Which episode mentioned it? I just rewatched Voyager a couple of years ago and don’t recall that.

YKeeg

Picard said it in his overdone French accent in Stardust city rag when he was trying to “sell” Seven.

ML31

He never mentioned infants have more implants than adults.

And no Marja… It does not make sense infants have more implants than adults. It makes more sense that adults do. Even the time we did see an infant we say far fewer external Borg bits. It just seems to me that the larger the being the more Borg bits there will be.

Marja

How come? The younger they’re assimilated the more tech the Borg can implant. Makes sense to me, anyway.

Nachum

I thought he said, “So, are you going to assimilate me now?” which made it even better.

And then he lets out a little sigh of relief when he realizes she isn’t.

I want the t-shirt.

I’d also like to give a shout out to Narissa’s line “Resistance is futile and all that.”

Airiam, eh? Ugh. If this season turns out to be a half-baked spinoff of the second season of “Discovery” and its wretched Control plotline, then that’s a real shame.

YKeeg

So much underutilization of the cast on that show. Airiam had an intriguing backstory and they packed her entire character arc into one episode and killed her off. If that character had been developed over two years (even a little line here and there about having to delete her memories daily, like Odo and his bucket), the end would have hit the rest of us as much as the cast were “acting upset” at the funeral.

What do we know about Rhys and… random communications guy whose name I can’t even conjure right now? Owo got an away mission, so we got to know… one single fact about her backstory. I mean… they’re diverse, which is great, but they’re literally a bridge crew full of what Nichelle Nichols, Denise Crosby and Sigourney Weaver’s character in Galaxy Quest were complaining about. They either repeat the computer or say “Aye Captain”, and that’s a wrap. Really hoping they spend some time developing those characters rather than building up more reasons Michael Burnham is the greatest, most versatile Starfleet Officer or human being ever born.

Edit: BRYCE! His name is Bryce.

shiro

I agree somewhat. My number one problem with Discovery is that Star Trek has always been about a bunch of people working together–despite their differences–to overcome a challenge. Discovery is all about Burnham only, and the others have nothing compelling. Number two problem: they are all over-acting, over-emotional, non-professional (except Pike). Number three problem: the “modern” lens flare, dark sets, ugly costumes (except the Enterprise ones), crazy camera work. It’s just too overdone and really distracting.

YKeeg

I agree entirely with everything you just said.

ML31

And number 4 problem… The season long story arcs have been monumentally weak and the overall writing on the show has been… Well no other way to say it. Awful.

YKeeg

Yeah. A story that could be told well and excitingly in a two-parter, dragged out over three months, and they still don’t find time for character development.

Marja

S1’s story arc was interesting — until they got to the Mirror Universe.

S2’s story arc was a drawn-out mystery, rather frustrating, and ended all in a rush. I did like the inclusion of Spock and Pike; I disliked the Control storyline; and the Red Angel storyline was rather convoluted. And they killed off Admiral Cornwell [hated that]!!

I’m not sure what S3 will bring. I hope I like it.

ML31

I wouldn’t say S1 was “interesting”. But I was going with it. The best part of it was Lorca. Until the MU garbage. Admittedly a lot of that was they ruined potentially one of the better characters not just in the show but in ALL of Trek. Turns out he was one of the worst characters ever.

The S2 mystery didn’t bother me. It was fine. Started out OK too. But once they brought in Section 31 and Control… That was the end of that. The entire thing sank like the proverbial rock. And the timy whimey stuff sure didn’t help.

Marja

shiro,
Crazy camera work is usually one director, Olatunde Osunsanmi, who loves to swoop and move the camera 365 degrees on exterior shots and sometimes interiors. I find it maddening too, but Frakes does great direction as do others, and Osunsanmi does fine with the actors.

Discovery is not all about Burnham only; she is the lead character. That’s like saying TOS was about Kirk only. I find Saru, Tilly, Stamets and Culber, and L’Rell plenty compelling, but to each their own. The over-emotional stuff, you can find in many versions of Trek. There is always the disobedient officer who accomplishes the good goal [Kirk being a notable example]. There is a bit too much of that in DSC though.

Personally I find the Discovery costumes more attractive than the ones designed for Pike and the Enterprise crew. I think you haven’t seen Season 2 which has lighter sets and a warmer palette.

Nachum

In fairness, TOS was really Kirk-Spock-McCoy and a bunch of other people. (And it had a lot more episodes.) In fact, opening credits were originally Shatner and Nimoy, and later Kelley, and that was it.

TNG did eventually kind of devolve, especially in the movies, into “The Picard and Data Show.” VOY became *very* Seven-heavy at some point. The joke in the ENT mirror story’s end, where Hoshi and Mayweather end up ruling the galaxy, was that the two of them had done nothing for four years. Only DS9…well, was DS9, where even Morn gets a backstory. And even there, Jake was invisible a lot.

Maybe shows can’t really maintain seven main characters, or maybe DS9 spoiled us.

YKeeg

This is extremely true. However, we knew Sulu used to be a botanist and was a fencer, and was born in San Francisco, Chekov was an only child and a Soviet Russia buff, and Uhura spoke Swahili and was a singer/musician. Scotty liked scotch and technical journals. We got nuggets of personality from them.

Maybe it was a 60’s thing. But nowadays its just not fathomable that a bridge crew character on a starship wouldn’t be fleshed out. Tasha Yar was only around for a season, and we knew where she grew up, what she went through, was orphaned at 5, how she joined Starfleet, that she had a sister who was part of a gang, that she knew aikido, was nervous about her femininity… so when she died (granted, I was 14 and in love with her), I cried little teen man-tears. Airiam was potentially at LEAST as engaging a character as Tasha. And when everyone was crying at her funeral, I was like “Where are you guys getting this?”

Aside from first names in the Season 2 premiere roll call, we know next to nothing about these people. Detmer got hurt on the Shenzhou. We still don’t know what happened or what exactly her apparatus does. Or when she crossed the line from giving Burnham the stink-eye and being her buddy again. I’d have liked to have seen that exchange when Detmer said, “I’m sorry”, or “You’re okay in my book”. But she just flipped a switch like in high school, when the unpopular kid does something cool.

Granted, they have a lot to do in these short-bus 10-episode seasons, so there’s not a whole lot of screen time to spare for casual, intimate moments between friends (which is one thing that made Trek so great… Geordi teaching Data about shaving, Tasha telling Wes about drug addiction, Deanna’s chocolate problem, the adventures of Odo’s bucket, the long evolution of O’Brien and Bashir’s friendship… Miles used to HATE that guy!!). I would much rather they slash their lens flare budget and give us five to ten more episodes with fair-to-middling level effects and let us get to know these people so we can enjoy when they evolve and despair when they die.

Marja

Ykeeg, but the interests and backgrounds of the secondary TOS characters were seldom featured, only mentioned in background when they were going to be relevant to the main plot. We only knew Uhura spoke Swahili to reveal that the attractive African man was really the Salt Monster, for example.

YKeeg

I completely agree. But Discovery’s been around for two seasons, and while these seasons are half the size of TOS’ seasons, those relevant plot moments have never come up.

Hell, when I was 5, I would point at the screen and excitedly yell “SULU”! And I have to struggle and google to figure out a bridge crew member’s name in Disco. It’s sad. Granted, I didn’t know who Chekov was until The Motion Picture came out and I saw his name on a Happy Meal box. So I honestly do see your point.

Marja

Nachum, Yes, DS9 spoiled us because the characters were all well developed, I guess in the season story arcs and “writers’ book”.

And it’s true, most of the other series had 3 -4 “main” characters and the others were secondary. TOS had the three, TNG featured Picard, Data, Troi and Worf, sometimes Geordie and Riker.

Didn’t look like airiam to me, looked like a proto-Soong-type that then shifted to Data. Airiam also wasn’t synthetic.

Thorny

It wouldn’t make sense to be Airiam anyway. Airiam was not an android, she was a Cyborg (she was human with cybernetic parts.)

Correct. You might have found part of the reason why her potential presence annoys me.

But hey, maybe I’m wrong and that wasn’t her. I’d love to be wrong.

It was clearly Airiam.

YKeeg

Not Airiam, just very similar prosthetic design with the “seams” in its face. I bet the designer just fell back on an aesthetic they were comfortable with.

Marja

Early prototype android maybe? Like the ones from Japan nowadays whose facial expressions number below 20.

YKeeg

Under “uncanny valley” in the dictionary, that picture should pop up.

martin

It clearly shifted to Data. I got the impression that Airiam has a skull under her face/head/skin prosthetics.

Marja

She does. Basically her face and scalp burned off in the accident. Brrr.

Marja

I don’t know how you folks catch these details so fast. Either you’re all aces on quickly hitting the Pause button or you can flash frame-by-frame? My eyes don’t work that fast!

I saw, like, Data and a bunch of flash images, LOL.

YKeeg

I’m old, have crappy reflexes, and CBS All Access hardly stops on a dime. I’m counting 100% on younger folks with faster connections and more time on their hands to post this stuff. Heheh.

Marja

LOL me too

Thanks, younger fans!

I really enjoyed that one. The dialogue and acting were great and since it was mostly character-based, there wasn‘t too much of that stupid story to get in the way. And the new warp effect is growing on me. Though the best version, in my mind, is still the one from Beyond.

Some minor nitpicks though:

The intercuting of the A and B Story felt a little clumsy. They didn‘t really fit. Though I didn‘t hate the Borg Cube stuff as much as the last times, it really did nothing for the story. Also: can you really vent every inch of the cube into space? Sees like a design flaw to me. Especially, since they actually show, there‘s a sphere – meaning a separate ship – in there.

And I still hate that the writers are unable to write scifi dialogue. The sentence „He put the phaser in his mouth and pulled the Trigger“ is just bad. It‘s a sentence you‘d see in any other TV Show with the word „gun“ replaced. And sure, at first people use analogues to talk about new technology. For example, a Tesla has a „gas“ pedal and and you can „hang up“ on an iPhone. But four- fucking – hundred years in the future, those things die out. A phaser has no trigger and why would you put it in your mouth? You‘d never even have seen a projectile weapon. When you can desintegrate people, it does not make sense, to aim for the head …

It must seem like I‘m really hung up on this, but it it always was a subtle little thing that set StarTrek apart from other scifi shows. It was that litlle extra mile they went with the dialogue. Now if they at least showed that Starfleet is that way and use it to contrast it to civilian life, that would be something you can work with. But the Admiral we see curses like a sailor (pun intended) in every conversation.

Just think about it for a second: If you were to meet someone, who lives in the year 1720. You could probably talk to him/her. But it would be difficult because pronounciation changes over time and your common frame of reference would be a lot smaller than the one you have with contemporarys. Now imagine the same thing the other way: you meet someone from 2320. Why would that be any different? And StarTrek used to actually care about that fact. The language was really clean and deliberate. Almost like it‘s meant for someone, who is learning english and who couldn‘t handle colloquialisms or regional dialects. To me that always made sense as a direction, language-developement would take, as the world becomes more and more globalized and distances become smaller and smaller, so regional differences in language would die out over time. Or you could say: the universal translator always delivers the cleanest possible way to say something.

Second thing is, that a Borg Cube with tactile – though holographic – controles doesn‘t really make sense. But to be fair, a lot of StarTrek – looking at you, voyager – acually faild to think about that. But they at least used a neural connection eventually. Though I always thought that the Borg worked better as a hive mind that with a Queen controling the hive, but that‘s another story 😁

Thirdly: Those french fries just looked sad 😅

And finally: why do all the pictures we see from the past, when someone is wearing a uniform, look like really terrible photoshop-jobs? I mean oviously they are photoshoped but why so badly, when you know, they‘ll be in a closeup?

Jake Tyson

So watching this episode. I immediately have thoughts of the iconians. The timelines would add up, (iconians were height of their power 200,000 years ago), iconians were the most advanced lifeforms the Galaxy had ever seen, and that had weaponry terrifying enough that the rest of the galaxy had to work together to barely defeat them. Maybe the threat is from them?

Second theory, it has to do with Control (the section 31 AI from discovery) control had access to time traveling probes… Never know if one could’ve went wayyyyyyy back.

Third theory, Q is up to something and we don’t know it yet.

ML31

It’s funny how well these Iconians seem to have stuck with a lot of people. I saw each TNG episode when they aired and I didn’t even remember them until people started talking about them in conjunction with STD S2. They weren’t memorable. In fact, I would wager the episode (or episodes, I literally have no idea) they were mentioned were likely rather mundane and pedestrian ones. Like most of the TNG eps were.

Marja

I thought it was Iconians who invented the doorways to other locations, too, but apparently I recalled incorrectly.

YKeeg

Dude… Iconians… I really need to watch that episode again, but… yeah!! Maybe they left the warning because they were badasses and someone beat them… or maybe Iconians had synth tech that was the big threat that annihilated everything, possibly including themselves. EXCELLENT theory which never crossed my mind. Well done.

And because Picard is an archaeologist, it would be PERFECT. He’d be the only one with the space smarts and dirt smarts to get to the bottom of it. And Soji would of course be able to speak Dinassian, Diwan and Iccobar…

For theory 2, the Disco probe was sent far into the future and sent back with future tech, so while I don’t know if CONTROL is directly involved, I think that plot point in Disco was related at least in some peripheral way.

And yes, I definitely think Q is trying to help, but must do so on the… pardon the pun… QT, because the Continuum is onto his interfere-y hijinks. The dream in the first scene was a dead giveaway. And I think he’s Captain Qrandall.

c d

A good episode, that’s two in a row. The show has been inconsistent but getting better. I have upgraded my opinion to caustically optimistic. >;>}
This did address Jurati and changed my opinion of her. Her brain was at least somewhat scrambled by Oh, her actions make a little more sense. I would still watch her though.
I think Starfleet officers would have a knowledge of projectile weapons. Just like when Riker talked to Geordi about popping the clutch on some vehicle. Again, putting in the mouth would show a knowledge of the history of the use (or misuse) of such weapons. About pulling the trigger, maybe pushing the trigger would be more accurate, but Rios obviously has an affinity for old ways (smoking) so being perhaps old fashioned in his description did not seem out of place. Especially not compared to the many many old fashioned (21st century) things we have seen and heard in Picard. I think they could make it just as bad if they tried to correct it.
The Rios holograms were fun, not too overdone, just enough overdone.
Looking forward to the next episode. Hope they can live up to my expectations!

Oh sure. You need a subtle hand to write good sci-fi dialogue. That‘s kind of my complaint. And sure, there would always be history buffs, thoug – from our point of view – a 17th century expert would be kind of an odd guy if it wasn‘t his job. Looking at you Tom Paris 😁

The Holograms were indeed fun. The scotish engineer was a clever nod for once (had we seen him before?) … and the idea in General was intriguing. I would have loved, if they‘d made the show about that kind of stuff.

Hell … the whole Synth storyline is actually getting kind of interesting. I just don’t understand, why we need romulan spies and federation conspiracies …

YKeeg

The best bad guys truly think they’re doing the Right Thing. The Romulan spies turning out to be misguided heroes would be interesting. Maybe might even lead to better Fed-Rom relations if the Roms paint themselves into a corner and Starfleet SAVES them… That’s kind of our job, and we’ve lost sight of that.

ML31

Except in this case their goals truly ARE the right ones. It’s just hard for the audience to sympathize with them when they are so cruel and merciless in their pursuit of said goals. But they are ultimately correct. AI’s should all be destroyed and all research on them ought to be stopped.

YKeeg

Yes, the last two have been stellar. Tried to do a double-rewatch with my GF last night (her first time watching them), but she fell asleep (migraine meds), and I paused it, and when she woke and said “why did you stop it?” I was like, “you really gotta see this”. :)

As far as “pull the trigger”, “Hang up”, etc… I’ll allow it. Partially because it makes it more accessible to the audience, but also because there’s a contemporary component to it. We still use terms like “fire it up”, which they used for coal engines and the term “computer bug” was based on some sort of actual insect… a cockroach or somesuch… getting into a computer in the 40’s and frying the system. The nautical term “knots”, measuring rate of speed, was, I believe, related to knots on a rope in the old sailing days, and it’s still used today. Terms like that last so long that people don’t know where they originated; they just always have used them.

Also, dramatically, “pull the trigger”, just sounds better than “thumbed the button”.

Marja

What do you do on a phaser? Push a button? Yeah, if you do, Rios could have said “he pushed the button down” but I think a lot of them seem to have triggers [finger pulling back], like phaser rifles.

TOS used a LOT of comtemporary expressions, especially wrt attraction to the opposite sex. And some expressions that seem antiquated even now. Others they had to clean up for TV, like McCoy’s “Blast it, Jim” would be “Dammit, Jim” now.

I feel like I explained it the best I can … I’m sorry, if you didn’t understand it. Of if you did and just disagree, that’s fine, too.

As I said, there were contemporary expressions. Some of those stay with us. In Germany there are a lot of colloquialisms, that originate from Martin Luthers Bible Translation. I believe in the english language it’s the same with some of Sheakespeares stuff.

And then there were just episodes that were just badly written. TOS or the TNG shows weren’t perfect. Far from it actually. For example: Data didn’t use cntractions. But there’s plenty of supercut Videos, where he does (in the first scene of Picard for example) … sometimes they just plain fucked up … it happens.

But my point was more general. In general they were pretty consistant with the way everyone talked, especially in the TNG era.

People tend to forget, that language is an important part of worldbuilding. If you have a shoe set 400 years in the future and your people talk like plain 21st century humans, it breaks the suspension of disbelieve. And good SciFi Writers know that:

Think of the Future Language in Cloud Atlas. Or the cursing in Firefly. Or you get around that by simly using a contemporary protagonist like in Farscape or Stargate.

YKeeg

I mean, the f-bomb was developed in the 16th century, and it’s currently seeing a massive comeback in the 25th. “Pull the trigger” is practically in vogue by comparison.

Mathew

So many things happened. I need a second viewing to process.

YKeeg

We are in agreement. It’s funny. Usually I need to watch things a second, third or fourth time in order to like them.

With this one, I loved every minute of it and just need to process a season’s worth of plot being dropped in 10 minutes.

Marja

Mathew,

I always do.

And in the new ST movies, I think it was deliberate so people would pay again to see the movie to make better sense of it.

Maybe younger people are better at seeing zippy-fast action, having spent their lives on computers, IDK.

VZX

The title should have been: “Exposition Overload.”

I liked all the Rios’s, Raffi investigating, and cute Elnor. But Picard was just…there. The main character was an afterthought. And what a waste of the Seven of Nine character! This is not the same 7 we saw on Voyager, this 7 is just a plot device. The 7 on Voyager was a 3-dimensional character with an arc. As cool as 7 looks in this show, I’d almost rather they didn’t use her if this is what they’re going to do with her.

And how does one move a star? It bugged me all the characters called it moving a “sun” and not a “star.” Yes, they’re basically the same thing, but it’s just not used correctly in that context. That “sun” term has a Kurtman silly-science vibe to it. Dude, there are thinking people watching your show, you don’t have to play to the lowest-common denominator and try to increase the awe by using the term sun instead of star.

Oh, but Soji was cool!

blackmocco

Picard has done next-to-nothing on this show. Some “character study” this is turning out to be. He just sits around and watches while everyone does everything for him. It’s like the polar opposite of STD when Burnham is the only character allowed discover or experience anything important to the plot. I get he’s supposed to be aged but not all action involves literal physical effort. Can’t wait for season 2. Picard naps in the corner. Picard falls asleep watching TV.

Also, this show isn’t “lowest-common denominator” by design…

Jay

Admiral Picard (not Stewart) is doing a lot. He is over 90 years old. (^_^)v

Cmd.Bremmon

That is pretty consistent with the character. It should surprise no one that he would rather be alone on his private winery than with Crusher or friends. Top TNG episode – Best of Both Worlds – he was with the Borg being nav deflector-ed by Riker. In Encounter in Farpoint all he could do was tell Q how superior humans were to any advanced alien race, no learning or exploration there. In Generations the Enterprise-D goes down with, you guessed it, Riker seeing all the action.
I suppose you could say Picard did something in First Contact… knew EXACTLY where to target the Borg cube… So did he not tell the Starfleet where to target Borg cubes because he knew before and wanted to be the hero (costing countless starships)? Or was it because he was in communication/compromised by the Borg and if so.. just think of the implications of him now being all obsessed over Data and engineered AI. You don’t see him dreaming about Tasha Yar, Riker’s lost child or even the Romulans lost. No, it’s Data (i.e. his idea of the “perfect” life form). The best part of Picard honestly is just how questionable Picard is and the grand implications of AI as the ‘perfect lifeform’ (i.e. false utopia).

Jay

Your analysis is fascinating….

PaulB

@Cmd.Bremmon – Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Cmd Bremmon stakes out a whole universe of diverse and balancing views on their own.

Marja

@Cmd Bremmon, at Wolf 359 Picard was clearly compromised by the Borg. After that, the Borg were quick to learn other ways to defend their cubes. Remember how, for every offensive action on Starfleet’s side, Borg would develop a defense on the spot?

I remain surprised that Narissa was so easily able to simply space the drones. Seems like Starfleet would have figured that out a long time ago. Perhaps Federation ethics got in Starfleet’s way there?

ML31

Yes but here is the weird thing about Borg adapting. It seems to be on a case by case basis and in ensuing encounters by other Borg said adapting is completely forgotten. They ALWAYS get a few phaser shots off before they come out with shields. Wouldn’t they immediately have the shields by the 2nd time they were encountered?

Marja

You would think so. Maybe the Hive Mind doesn’t work with phasers, LOL

Marja

I disagree with your view of Picard. His talk with Soji was very important and inspirational.

Jay

This show is an introduction for the new generation. New characters. I think Seven is doing great. A solid background, not a main character. Picard as well. Reminds me Professor Xavier and his children. He is the one in charge of bringing new blood to Star Trek.

I really liked this episode. Every week is getting better. Watching the Borg being activated again with Seven being the Queen was a wow moment. Elnor hugging her and later freaking out to be assimilated was hilarious. Picard trying to be the Captain again and run the ship was extremely amusing, funny as well!

Bravo! This production team got it, right from the beginning. Great episode, can’t wait for next week, 10 out of 10!!!

VZX

Maybe I came on a bit strong, I do like the show overall. But as a scientist, the whole sun/star thing bugged me. As did “moving a star.” But stranger things have happened in Star Trek, I guess. I just wish there was some explanation as to how. But stop calling them suns in that context.

But again, as a scientist, I always enjoyed the Seven running the astrometrics lab on Voyager. She went from being a budding scientist trying to regain her lost humanity to being a vigilante/ranger. I mean, I know a lot can happen in twenty years, but it just kind of bummed me out. It’s a weird duality for me: I loved the Voyager-Seven character, but hated her skin-tight costume on that show. NOW I love the costume for the Picard show-Seven, but really dislike the character she became.

Nachum

Want to move a star? Build a Dyson Sphere around it.

What, Dyson Spheres are impossible? (Even Prof. Dyson, who just passed away, said so.) Well, we’ve seen them in Trek, so there you are.

Prof. Dyson, by the way, watched that episode and said that while the science was silly, he enjoyed it.

YKeeg

This has nothing to do with the science… though I did think about the Dyson sphere when the question about moving stars was asked… but I just had an epiphany.

It took them 8 episodes, but they’re finally exploring a strange new world, and seeking out new life and new civilizations. They’re boldly going where Crandall and Maddox have gone before… but three out of 4 ain’t bad.

Guys… we’re coming home. (To… like… Star Trek. Y’know?)

c d

About f-g time!

Marja

Yeah, VZX, moving stars seemed a bit much. What about all the gravitational forces? EIGHT stars in a formation? Seems quite unbelievable. How would a starship navigate THAT.

ML31

Interesting you brought up the Xavier comparison. I see another X-Men comparison here. In X-Men they deal with the fear of people who are different. Which is an important story line to be sure. Except the problem with X-Men is that unlike just different LOOKING or differently cultured people, these are people who are different to the point where they could literally kill and/or destroy anything they want and there is next to NOTHING we can to to halt it. These are people that SHOULD be feared. It is 100% correct behavior to be scared to death of such power in the hands of shaky individuals.

Here in Picard, we are told we should not fear the AI. Even though that AI could at any moment for ANY reason efficiently kill anyone. We have no idea what might trigger them. And the history of AI is that they WILL. In literally every single situation they have been encountered. Save ONE. A single situation that in over 50 years no one has been able to duplicate. So yeah… In the world of Trek they SHOULD ban AI research. They have every single logical reason to do so.

Marja

Agreed. Data was an exception, but the creation of Lore came along with him. Lore was immensely destructive.

ML31

Yes. Even the one successful AI created it came with that side effect.

YKeeg

Hmmm. Twins. One who dies… and one who lives…

ML31

Not twins. One came some time before the other.

YKeeg

It’s like they’ve never seen the Terminator or the Matrix, for cryin’ out loud. Picard knows the complete works of Shakespeare cover to cover, but isn’t familiar with the salient works of Cameron and the Wachowskis? Dude needs some culture.

Marja

I really liked Seven comforting Elnor. She has good motherly instincts, as first encouraged by Janeway.

Nachum

I think “sun” stresses the point that there are eight of them. There are billions of stars, but more than one sun is unusual.

VZX

Um, what? A star is a sun for any planets that orbit that star. To call a star a sun implies you are in that planetary system and that is the star the planets you are near is orbiting. To say “move 8 suns” blah blah is just weird way to say it. It’s better to say “move 8 stars” in that context. Unless it’s a planet that is orbiting all 8 stars at once? I don’t see how that can happen, but there are some weird star systems out there. There is star system HD98800 that’s 146 ly away that consists of a two sets of binary stars orbiting each other within a ring of gas and dust. Four stars in a weird cosmic dance. So I guess there can be eight stars some where?

But I would think that in Star Trek’s era every single star in our Milky Way would be identified. So an 8-star system should be a known thing.

Nachum

I see your point.

At least in the late TOS era the point was made that they hadn’t even charted large parts of the Alpha Quadrant, so there might be a lot unknown.

YKeeg

I’d be willing to bet that this was discussed in the writers’ room, and debates were had, and they settled on “suns” simply because it sounds bigger.

VZX

Lol my thoughts exactly. It’s typical Kurtzman writing. Even though our own sun is actually a yellow-dwarf Star and there are many stars bigger than it. It’s the whole “supernova threatens an entire galaxy” thing again. At least the rest of the episode is good.

YKeeg

Yeah… traditionally, Star Trek has been written with the tacit assumption that it will be viewed by… forgive me… “nerds”. And any “non-scientific” stuff that would be viewed as fraudulent by intelligent people could be explained by an “anionic field” or “quantum subspace field inversion”. Science we didn’t understand, but would allow, because we’re smart enough to know we don’t know everything.

Nowadays, it seems the writers are assuming that the viewers have NEVER SEEN STAR TREK BEFORE, but this is “kind of how Star Trek is”. Like a Duplo Blocks or training wheels version of Star Trek. Which kind of makes the Master Builders among us wish for smaller, more precise pieces.

At a meta level, it seems they’re trying to make the Star Trek brand accessible to the masses by dumbing it down to a degree that traditional Trek fans can’t abide.

Full disclosure, I had my kids (22 and 14 at the time) watch Discovery and they loved it, while they couldn’t stay awake through Wrath of Khan. Friggin’ heathens.

ML31

I have to admit… That does sound perfectly reasonable and believable.

Marja

YKeeg, Even in past Treks, technobabble always bothered me bc it was just BS to advance the plot.

YKeeg

Yeah… gotta give you that. I think it got worse in Voyager, but there did seem to be a rampant “exotic field of the week” plot system afoot.

I understand your desire for precision VZX, but I don’t think this is just a lowest common denominator thing.

The important message is that this is a constructed multi-star, solar system. That is, it’s not just a constellation.

So, my sense was that the writer had to double down, in as few words as possible, to ensure that viewers understood that this was a single, constructed system.

As to moving stars, there is a fair amount of hard science fiction by credible authors (both stories and novels) that has speculated that constructed multi-star systems could be made, or involved the discovery of artifact systems like this one. A octonary system is a first in my reading though.

Marja

Why in the world [heh] would you do it though? What possible benefit could there be to making an octanary star system?

Actually irrc binary starts are more prevalent than a single star.

Thorny

Yes. Most of the bright stars we see in the night sky are actually binary stars. Alpha Centauri is actually three stars (though one, Proxima is very small and dim.)

There’s nothing wrong with using the term “sun” in this context, so your crazy rant is moot.

VZX

Lol what crazy rant? I LIKED the episode, but I wanted to point out something that bothered Me about it. It’s a trivial nitpick, not a rant! I’m just saying they should have used the term “stars” not “suns.” It’s not a big deal. But I’m allowed to point out a mistake.

c d

‘Sun’ sounds more homey.

YKeeg

I totally read “horney”.

Tim

Clancy called Picard “Admiral”.
So, he is back!
YEEEES !

Jay

YEEEES!!!!

YKeeg

Still dropped another f-bomb though. I’m never going to get used to that.

Although, I bet she was a hell of a captain to have a drink with out on a ship.

JSM-73

Me either, and it saddens me as if they took them all out, it wouldn’t make this otherwise superb episode any less superb. At all. In fact it would differentiate Star Trek from other ‘gritty’ modern shows, by showing a classier side. It also is jarring as it just doesn’t fit in with previous TNG or the TNG films. So it feels ‘tacked on’ just to make Trek appear a little more edgy and less (stereotypically) ‘nerdy’. I truly hope they’ll phase out the F-bombs in season two. But, otherwise a superb episode none-the-less.

ML31

To be fair it doesn’t “fit in” with other shows because they were restricted from doing so.

The PG and PG-13 ratings for the features even restricted them.

YKeeg

True, but going back to my MCU analogy, suppose Disney relaxed its restrictions, and one of the Avengers said “we’ve got to fight these fucking mutants”, would it add anything meaningful to the story, or be a stunt to pull because they can? It’s out of place, unnecessary, and inconsistent with the brand. And it would scare away potential audiences because parents don’t want their kids hearing that. And some grups are offended by it, too. They just figure Game of Thrones did it, so we should too because they’re the gold standard of entertainment. And look how that turned out.

The same story can be told with more integrity without the cursing. And this is coming from a guy that cusses like a fucking sailor. Because that’s MY brand.

YKeeg

I’ve been thinking about this lately.. after the latest Clancy F-bomb. It’s just not necessary.

Even in modern language, profanity is considered a crutch. The domain of ignorant people who can’t properly express themselves. Granted, I friggin’ ADORE the f-word and use it at least 10 times daily, but I firmly believe it doesn’t belong in Star Trek.

Sorry to make the comparison, but look at the MCU. It’s Disney-owned, and I daresay, to me, that it’s the single most consistently entertaining franchise in cinematic history, and there haven’t been an abundance of f-bombs in it. Maybe one or two slipped by without my notice, but overall, profanity hasn’t been necessary for me to enjoy pretty much every MCU movie that’s been released.

You fucking just don’t need that shit.

I think she’s just an old curmudgeon like Bones, and Bones said ‘Damn’ a lot, something that was also pretty offensive back in the 60s (in fact it wasn’t even on TV until the mid 60s, until then it was not allowed)

Marja

McCoy in TOS said “Blast it” instead of “Damn it” … he didn’t get to cuss until TMP.

IIRC, the only swear on TOS was in “City on the Edge of Forever” when Kirk said “Let’s get the hell out of here.”

I could be wrong!

McCoy often said “Damn it.” “Blast it” is more of a Star Wars thing.

'Drew

McCoy didn’t say Damnit until the movies. He has an astounding variety of minced oaths on TOS.

Marja

Thank you Drew.

ACpilot

Two F-bombs actually…… I find the use quite disappointing – a result of lazy writing.

ML31

Yeah… She is coming across as a bit on the salty side, isn’t she? Maybe she wasn’t so much of a asshat but more like she is just a throwback salty sailor? But even that explanation I find to be flimsy. You rise to that level and you know when to drop the f bombs and when not to.

'Drew

Alternatively, when you’re the CnC, what passes for decorum is solely your decision.

ML31

Yeah… No. Not unless bu that time etiquette and protocol are drastically different than now. Which, yes, is possible. But it feels like that sort of change would not be very realistic.

Marja

Yep. I don’t mind salty language and find the term “f bomb” hilarious when people are willing to tolerate the depiction of, and violence from, actual bombs that damage people, but not “f bombs.”

I do think the use of swearing does seem “stuck in” at some points. But STFU is pretty common usage, especially when saying “shut up” with emphasis.

I think Clancy is just a salty sailor at heart.

It’s not uncommon to refer to or call retired officers by their rank, although when written it would be Admiral J-L Picard (retired).

Clancy’s previous lack of use of the rank was just another indication of her exasperation and distancing from him.

I didn’t take it that Picard was formally reactivated or that he would have authority over the squadron. I’ll have to listen carefully on rewatch.

Trek in a Cafe

Last night I watched The Favorite on HBO and there’s a scene where a character walks through an otherwise staid hallway – saying, “F! … F!” And so I would like Trek-cussing to be like that. Just people talking to themselves.

Mina

I know a lot of people were worried about this being a cynical version of ST. But the last two episodes are really bringing the TNG inspiration on hard.

Jay

Yes. Totally!

YKeeg

Agreed. It’s making me feel a lot better.

stanlowcrickets888

I think there was a mid-season rewrite/retcon course-correction as rumored…for the better! We do know that Riker-Troi was added in mid-season.

YKeeg

That’s true, and just think where we’d be if they hadn’t done that. Chalk one up to the power of rewrites! These last two have been spectacular.

Also, I’ve noticed a change in Raffi; all of the “honey, sweetie” talk. It was a sudden shift in her personality. “Auntie Raffi”. I’m not saying it’s a BAD thing; I like it. Makes her more likeable, and mysterious. Is it all an act (trying to Starfleet Intelligence her way into Agnes’ mind)? Is she just comfortable? Is she letting go of past stuff after the stuff with her son? Or is she just really lit and highly mellow? Maybe that was another midseason course correction.

Thorny

That’s because she’s drying out.

Two days is a good way in to detox.

Marja

Is she indeed. She was vaping Snakeplant [?] last week.

Not drinking though, I guess.

ML31

I seriously doubt that. I think this is the first show to have a set map that went through fairly unaltered from the start. This is seen as one LONG story. So it makes sense that they would head the way you want at this point as we come towards the end. If this were an episode, it all would have gone by much faster and you barely would have noticed the “darkness”.

Although I would disagree about how “positive” things are getting. To me things are starting to look awfully dark and dreadful at the moment.

Marja

ML31,
I think Picard himself is getting more positive though. JMHO.

Danpaine

Indeed.

Rabbitfood

The f-bombs might be intentional which makes them stick out and sting alittle to trek fans but I like it. I like how it makes Trek stand out a little more than “disneys” Star Wars. Trek takes place in our future which has it’s ups and downs with class and optimism. Roddenberry had a optimistic view of the future but I’d like to think he had a realistic one too.. I don’t care how far in the future you go. The human race can get ugly whey “shit” hits the fan.

KeoniKahn

Umm, I should look this up but when did the Vulcans and Romulans split? I’m confused about the eight star system that was created several thousand years in the past. Ugh, this show is bringing out my teenage geek.

YKeeg

I don’t know where I got this, and it may be just headcanon of 40 years of watching Star Trek, but I somehow think the Romulans left maybe 1-2 thousand years ago. I have no reference to cite and wish I did. If someone can answer this authoritatively, it would help put a LOT into perspective!

Was anything said in the Vulcan’s Forge multi-parter of Enterprise? Haven’t watched that in a decade or two. I might need to brush up on that. The Romulans left in protest over Surak, right? So logic dictates it would have been sometime after he was around and did his “let’s do logic” thing.

Edit: Yep, roughly 2000 years ago based on Picard’s setting. Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surak

tl;dr: The Vulcans who became the Romulans nuked Surak and left 2000 years ago.

KeoniKahn

Nice, thank you for the reference. Now this makes a little more sense. However, I’m not sure who created the Synth home world. We’ll find out!

Marja

Fascinating. I had thought it was 5,000 years.

Nachum

The eight-star system was created much earlier. The Romulans discovered it “centuries” ago.

I’mPaul

A tear drop fell out of my eye when Soji told Picard that Data loved him.

Danpaine

There were a lot of things in this episode to process, and that scene was one of them, no doubt. I’ll probably watch this one a couple more times, like I did last week.

i'mpaul

You have to! I have to watch them at least twice, once as a fan, so I can get all of the uncomfortable judgments, and nerdy fanboy desires out of the way, and then a second time as a grownup who appreciates quality TV, so that I can judge it on its merits. I’m about to start my second viewing now.

YKeeg

This is an extemely mature, relevant and appreciated way of doing things. I’m glad someone else understands, and I’m happy to hear I’m not the only one. :)

ML31

I found it ridiculous. But not unexpected if the rumors of what is to come are to be believed. Further, Data never had genuine emotions. His emotion chip emulated emotions. It was also programed to react a certain way to certain things. Nothing about data was genuine. Everything about him was programmed. Including emotions.

Marja

Then Soji’s statement was manipulative. Hmmmmm. Worrying.

Admiral Armwood

“Once the threshold of synthetic evolution (a dividing line) is reached, somebody really bad shows-up”. Could this really bad ‘somebody’ be Q!? Remember that humanity is still on trial and he would most likely observe this situation to see how humanity will deal with it – have humanity evolved enough for the Q continuum? A good lesson for today’s world!

YKeeg

This reminded me of the Mass Effect games… once technology reached a “threat level”, the Big Bad would sweep the galaxy and knock everyone back to the stone age every few thousand years or so. Or so I recall.

TonyD

Been a while since I played those games but as I recall, the villains in Mass Effect were sentient machines (though each one was basically a spaceship unto itself) that culled all sentient life in the galaxy every 100,000 years.

Corinthian7

That was my first thought TonyD. Maybe those that criticised the ship design as looking more like the Normandy than Starfleet we’re onto something…

YKeeg

Yep, I’ve been hearing that as well and never noticed the similarity until it was brought up. Sorta getting flashbacks now. Damn, I loved serving on that ship. Might be time for a full series replay.

Corinthian7

@YKeeg I think you’ve just answered the question of what to do for 2 weeks if the current outbreak obligates me to go in to self isolation.

stanlowcrickets888

Q…Yes indeed likely behind the eight star system which is within his powers since we know he can time travel millions of years in different alternate universes (AGT final episode). I think final scene of episode 10 Q pops into Picards life. That twitter picture leak had a character in long red gloves (Q??)

ML31

If that happens the show will have taken a HUGE step to STD territory.

bassmaster22

So the humans created the Cylons, it went bad and a few hundred thousand years later humans are creating more Cylons. Did I get that right? This all seems vaguely familiar. Maybe a Caprica script “inspired” Kurtman. So much “inspiration” in his story telling.

I am thrilled we got the Galactica sequel we’ve been waiting for.

Anthony Mango

I was thinking the same thing. I think that would be kind of amazing- Star Trek, all of it, has just been a big sequel to BSG. And the Borg? Well, they are the Cylons that went their own way at the end of the show. They tried to also integrate “organic” life into themselves but instead of making a hybrid…. they ended up Borg.

Eh, not so much humans in the first go round. that was hundreds of thousands of years ago, we’re talking way back BCE. Likely another race pushed things that far, maybe the Tkon? (They could move stars after all)

Andy

All of this has happened before…

Michael Sacal

Deep Space 12, seriously? Of all the Deep Space stations Picard should go to, 12 is not the one…

stanlowcrickets888

DS9 is in another quadrant…I assume they are still in the Beta quadrant?

Nachum

DS9 is in the Beta Quandrant. They say “Alpha Quadrant” a lot, but that seems to be shorthand for “Our side of the galaxy.”

Michael Sacal

Earth is in the Alpha Quadrant.

Actually, I believe that Sol System is the demarcation line between Alpha and Beta Quadrant.

Michael Sacal

True — still, lol.

Tiger2

Because DS9 is LITERALLY on the opposite side of the galaxy!!

I guess I have to remind myself not everyone who shows up here are total nerds and understand all the placements and locations of planets and areas but to make it CLEAR where Picard and company are at are in the Beta quadrant in Romulan space. Where DS9 was located was at the edge of Federation space in the Alpha quadrant near Cardassian space. This map makes it clear (and you can blow up the image to see it better):
comment image

Yes, its an old map lol, but where you see the Cardassia Union where DS9 and Bajor located is, once again, literally on the other side of the galaxy from where Romulan space is. No idea how far it is in terms of light years but I’m guessing several thousand at least and would probably take a week at maximum warp to even get there. Where they are now is waaay closer to Earth itself than they are to Bajor.

I hope this (finally) clears it up.

Danpaine

What a cool map! I have never seen this before.

Tiger2

If you google Star Trek maps there are tons of them lol. They are a lot of fun to read and they even have specific maps like based on the Delta quadrant and all the places Voyager explored, etc. There are even interactive maps.

It’s amazing the amount of detail you can find in them like this one. I imagine in time newer ones will be produced to show how much has changed post-Nemesis now with new canon finally showing up, at least in terms of Romulus space.

Danpaine

I saved yours to my PC and roamed around it for a while, much fun. Thanks for making me Geek out even More, Tiger!

Tiger2

You’re welcome. It wasn’t my original intent but I’m glad you get to see them. I have downloaded a few of them over the years. They are really fun.

Thorny

(disregard)

Denny C

Excellent map, sir!

Jay

This is great. Thank you, Tiger2!

Tiger2

No worries Jay! :)

Legate Damar

I’m not really sure how helpful a 2D map of space is, but its kind of neat. Is this from a canon source, or is it just made up?

Ian

These maps are always amazing but frustrating. There’s just no way to draw one that accommodates decades of Trek events.

Things like:

Klingon space looks to be over a thousand light years from Cardassia, but somehow an effective war between them was raged with a hostile Federation in the middle not offering any bases for the Klingons to use.

The Son’A aided the Dominion in the war… from the other side of the Federation?

The scale seems right as the Federation is quoted at being 8000 light years across, but according to this, Genesis is about 18 months from Earth at warp 9.

Etc. Kinda have to just let some things go I suppose.

c d

That is only showing part of two out of the four galactic quadrants. Cardassia and Romulan space are very far away from each other but not the other side of the galaxy from each other. Delta (where Voyager was sent to and where the Borg are from) and Gamma quadrant would the other side of the galaxy.

Tiger2

Yeah I realized I worded it wrong after I posted it. I should’ve said the other side of Federation space.

Edward Samuela

It can’t be on the opposite side of the galaxy. DS9 depicts Romulan space bordering the Cardassians.

It’s specifically mentioned that the Dominion would cross into Romulan space, lurk there because of the non-aggression pact the Dominion signed with the Romulans, and then ambush Federation and Klingon forces.

Clearly, that map is fan-made. What the heck is “Titan’s Rift?” If whoever made it doesn’t even know enough to call it Tyken’s Rift, that throws the entire map into question.

YKeeg

Not to mention a Tyken’s Rift was a PHENOMENON, not a static location.

We’re on the same page with the maps Tiger2.

My issue is on the travel time of La Sirena. Theoretical maximum warp is only about 1000 light years per year.

That’s why Voyager’s return trip would have taken 70 years without short cuts along the way.

Warp isn’t all that fast actually. (There’s a good demo animation that a scientist posted to show this.)

La Sirena, even at Warp 9, should not have been able to get from Earth to the neutral zone in a few weeks. At best, the ship could have covered 40-60 light years.

This is all the more the case for the hop to Nepenthe: two days would get La Sirena less than 6 light years. There wouldn’t be many habitable planets in that volume for the Romulans to pursue them to. Not to mention the unlikelihood of the Troi-Rikers living in the neutral zone.

That’s why I keep bringing up the slipstream technology Voyager picked up. Either Starfleet has found a way around the theoretical upper limit of warp technology, or they are using something else now.

ML31

Then how fast is warp? I’ve never been bothered to do the math as I bet it’s been inconsistent throughout Trek but I was led to believe that warp 1 was light speed. Warp 2 was twice light speed. Warp three was 9 times light speed. Warp 4 was 16 times light speed, etc.

But I also wish to point out that in all of these Secret Hideout Treks and in the KU films I have never heard anyone mention a warp factor. Warp seems to have been treated like light speed in Star Wars. There is one only one speed. No one has said, “go to warp 5” or something. It’s always, “go to warp”.

Actually, ML31 Warp speed increases are nonlinear approaching an asymtote at Warp 10.

The TNG Technical Manual lays this out with a helpful chart, but it’s conceptually behind a lot of the dialogue references in 90s Trek.

So, while Warp 1 is one light year per year, 24th century ships approaching the limit (Warp 9.9 or 9.9 is heard in the later series), can reach about 1000 light years per year.

Voyager tells us that sustained maximum warp for a ship (whether that’s Warp 5 for the NX-01 or Warp 9.9 for Voyager) is energy intensive, uses up dilithium rapidly, and is hard on the ship and its components.

I note that in TOS, in one episode the ship went over Warp 10. The 90s writers said that the Warp factor velocity tables had been redone when technology improved, but that means that Enterprise NX-01’s Warp 5 is less than Warp 5 in later shows – just to add to the confusion.

ML31

The warp 10 asymptote that appeared in TNG I always felt messed up warp factors. I felt it silly like the final letters in the ship numbers that appeared after TVH but not universe shatteringly silly. I seem to recall a vessel in TAS clocked at warp 14 or so once. And yes, multiple times in TOS warp factors higher than 10 were mentioned. I guess TNG altered all that with a new scale. But my head canon on that was that it was a new scale that still used the same base. It was sort of like going from miles to kilometers but still calling the units miles. The end result being a pause, a wave of the hands and “whatever… fine.” And moving on.

But on the other topic… Has a warp factor been mentioned in Secret Hideout Trek? I swear no one has said anything….

German Trekkie

Wasn’t it theorized here and there that there would be regions of space where you can go faster, like “subspace highways“? I do not mean transwarp conduits, which are canon anyway.
But there are too much cases of starships getting from A to B waaay to fast (ST5 being a prominent example…).

ML31

At times Trek has played a little fast and loose with galactic geography. The E-D has warped to Earth in what I figured was impossibly fast considering where they were before IN EPISODE. And of course, Trek ’09 when it seemed they were anywhere pretty much as soon as the plot needed them to be. Generally I let a lot of that slide but even that has a breaking point. Like STID when they literally went from Klingon space to the Sol system what seemed like only a couple of hours in movie time. (not real time)

YKeeg

That ship had 72 decks, thus was superior to anything we’d ever seen before or since.

blackmocco

Try to contain yourselves: I actually mostly enjoyed this one. The crew are finally gelling and everyone’s got something to do. Soji actually feels like a character after seven episodes of being a blank dud. Even Raffi didn’t annoy me too much. Stewart anchors it with his speech to Rios at the end. Alison Pill is awesome. Crap Romulan villainess gets her comeuppance. (Good riddance to the character and actress. She was always a hard no from me, dawg.) The EMH finally – FINALLY! – gets to spill the beans about Jurati.

Naturally, there are still problems. Haha! Elnor has no reason to be on this mission or this show. He’s mere character surplus and contributes nothing. The plot could be the exact same without him.
The “begorrah! Oi’m an Oirish hologram!” is back just in time for St. Paddy’s Day and this time he’s brought an equally pathetic Scottish accent with him. Good lord. Honestly, I’m finding the entire hologram idea pretty insufferable at this point.

B. Jonas

I may have to watch the episode again, but didn’t the “crap Romulan villainess” get beamed to safety at the last second?

Anduinel

Yeah. Rolled my eyes at that, tbh. I don’t even love to hate her, I’m just bored with her cartoon villainy and lol sadism. Trying to give her actual motivations at the 11th hour is too little, too late.

YKeeg

I totally agree, yet the attempt was appreciated during my viewing. Wish it had come sooner. Probably another mid-season course correction like adding the Rikers.

Anduinel

I wouldn’t be surprised. At least with Narissa, it feels like they were trying to rein her in a bit – give her relatable emotions, make it so that she and Narek aren’t *actually* related – but it’s just too late to do anything with her this far in when they front-loaded her as a cardboard cutout in a catsuit.

Marja

LOL, she is SO cardboard. The poor actress has NOTHING to work with. At least she had a simpatico scene with her aunt in this episode.

Unfortunately Narissa, not the aunt, survives. Apparently.

YKeeg

I wonder if this 8-star system is where Voyager 6 was turned into V’ger…

slvrpltd

i mentioned this various times on other sites. it would be the ultimate roll eyes moment for me…

Nachum

Rios keeps his rank insignia on a metal plate- they must be magnetic. I counted- there were nine full pips and two hollow ones, which is exactly how many you need to make up a full set of the first five officer ranks. Why they don’t just add to the ones you have is beyond me.

Five holograms, five accents: Spanish (actually speaking Spanish), Scottish, Irish, English, and vaguely cultured American. The scene with all of them was great.

JAGT

Alright, I’m gonna write down the list, so others won’t have to mangle their brains as I did for a couple of minutes there – I just kept skipping a rank and hence just couldn’t figure out how it added up (to my excuse: it’s rather late over here and I’m dead tired):

Ensign (1 full pip)
Lt. JG (1 full, 1 hollow pip)
Lt. (2 full)
Lt. Cmdr. (2 full, 1 hollow)
Cmdr. (3 full)

Yup, works out! Still doesn’t make sense that he apparently got a new set of pips each time he moved up a rank, but hey: at least that way we could keep count!

Nachum

Maybe the older ones get dinged up, or could, and so you get new ones.

Or maybe there’s some formal presentation where they give them to you in a box or something.

There’s a scene in the movie “Patton” where he literally has a fourth star attached to his helmet. But that was in the middle of a war. I imagine generals usually get a new set for each rank, especially as on the shoulders, I think, at least for some services and/or uniforms, they’re really all one piece. (Patton sticks his fourth *above* the other three, which is not standard, but he couldn’t shift over the others to center them.) In the case of captains and NCOs, they *are* one piece.

Marja

Perhaps the metal gets worn over time …

Sometimes rank insignia are passed down in families or between officers.

Didn’t Picard give someone one of his old pips?

Marja

Yes, the little girl in “Disaster.” He dubbed her the “team leader.”

So why did Narek initially follow them without his cloaking device being active? Even after they changed course?
How did he locate them without the tracker in Agnes, and why did he choose to activate his cloak at a later point?
Then, why did he have to deactivate the cloak to enter the transwarp conduit?

He “put” a tracker in Soji, I bet.

Thorny

The old fashioned way. Go back to last known position and follow warp signatures.

ML31

Yeah… I was wondering how they were found after the “tracker” was neutralized.

I thought that, having lost La Sirena, Narek’s plan B was to go directly to the planet identified by 2 red moons and electrical storms.

However, as there was some kind of security shield, Narek had to lie in wait, cloaked, in hopes of sneaking in with another ship.

ML31

But he didn’t go there. He went to the entrance to the trans warp hub. As if he knew that ship would be using it to go to AI world.

I’ll have to look again ML31.

Could be the Romulans have located the closest entrance to a Transwarp network and Narek assumed that Soji would exploit it.

ML31

If so I consider it something that the audience ought not have to work out as on the surface it looks super contrived. We should have gotten some dialog from the Romulan brother guy with his sister or asked his computer some questions or something….

Maybe we’ll get that dialogue or backstory next week when Narek calls in.

It would have dragged things this week.

German Trekkie

One thing I really liked: the tracker is said to be Viridium. Thats the same isotope (?) that Spock used to track Kirk when he was imprisoned on Rura Penthe in ST6.

Actually someone here was adamant earlier that the tracker did not make sense, and I just thought “They used something very similar in TUC, man“. Now I know HOW similar actually :)

The writers sure know how to use Memory Alpha XD

YKeeg

Yeah, I was kind of wondering why “the culture known for cloaking technology” didn’t employ that technology when covertly following a target.

That’s like, THE ONE THING IT’S GOOD FOR.

khambattafan

So let’s see- the previous season of CBSAA Star Trek was about how artificial intelligence very nearly destroys all sentient life in the universe. And this season of CBSAA Star Trek is about how the fear of artificial intelligence is overblown, as long as we love enough? At least, that is where I would guess Chabon is heading. I mean, if the Romulan Vashers are right in their diagnosis, they probably wouldn’t talk like hammy villains…

Cmd.Bremmon

Yes, that is right. And engineered AI life can now completely replace the human condition (imagination, emotion, etc), they are perfect engineered life forms. Just think now starships can have super androids that can do everything and live x 100 humans. Isn’t that just great for storytelling??? No Into Darkness firing photon torpedoes from the neutral zone at the Klingon homeworld just to force in a message here!!! Poor Borg, they are just misunderstood. All they want is utopia, just like Picard! Sorry V’ger, guess you didn’t have to meld with Decker after all!

ML31

Yeah… Picard is definitely on the wrong side of this one. And I don’t think it even debatable. I’m really hoping that in the end Picard realizes the mistake and rectifies it. But also hope not in a cheezy way.

German Trekkie

Your point is actually kinda… “speciesist“. Which is exactly the point of Picard. You see just two possibilities, AI is bad. AI is good. That is a heck of a simplification.
I admit, i did not know what DISC Season 2 wanted to tell us thematically (which is quite weak). But I am pretty sure it said “THIS specific AI created by a shadowy organisation went rogue and evil“, not that ALL AI is bound to be evil.
They even had the sphere, which was at least part AI and was depicted as much more benevolent.
Sure enough, DISC did not want to get across that positronic Androids like Data are bound to become a force of destruction.

You basically fell in the “all …. are evil and must be purged“ trap, which reveals more about you than about confused messages from DISC and PIC.

Bottom line: SOME AI/synths may turn destructive, as some humans may, but not ALL. Its never ever ALL of them.

ML31

That would be a valid point… Except every single AI in Trek (apart from Data) has decided to destroy or kill to varying levels. There are enough examples throughout Trek history that say “don’t make a sentient AI. Do not do it!” And then they had to hammer the point home with yet another story of AI’s destroying on a galactic proportion. What more do you need? I look out the window in the morning. Everything is wet. Water is everywhere. I head little taps on the windows at night. I did not see the rain but it is pretty darn safe to conclude it rained. It is hardly “speciesist”.

I do not include V’Ger as that seemed to be the result of a naturally evolved machine. So there was likely nothing “artificial” about it.

Marja

But wasn’t V’Ger in contact with a highly advanced artificial intelligence? Or am I mixing that up with “Nomad,” from which Roddenberry ripped TMP?

I think if AI were each programmed with DO NO HARM protocols or overrides it would help. It seems the A-8s on Mars did not have such a protocol or even an override.

ML31

V’Ger was sent off from the machine planet. They interpreted Voyager 6’s mission quite literally.

Such protocols would be nice… Sure. And I’m sure anyone trying to make an AI would want to have Asimov’s laws embedded into the code. The A8’s on mars are more like robot vacuums. Why would you put such a code into something that cannot think or act independently?

Marja

Because if it cannot act independently, it would do whatever an inimical force commanded it to do. IF it had the Asimov protocol, it would shut down rather than obey a “harm others” order.

ML31

No, it would do whatever it was programmed to do. The only way one of those A-8’s could kill someone is if someone got into their systems and programmed them to. Or, if someone accidentally got killed as a result of its normal daily function.

TonyD

Entertaining episode that moved the plot forward significantly and it will be interesting to see how it all gets resolved, especially as there are only two episodes remaining. I just hope they don’t end it on a cliffhanger. About the only nitpick I would throw out there is that so much of what was revealed was done thru exposition, which I do find a bit lazy. It seems like all the information was there all along, it just took people a while to open up and come clean.

As to some random thoughts:

– Rios (who continues to be my favorite character) has quite the backstory but the coincidence that he of all people was on the ship that made first contact with the synths felt like a bit of a stretch to me.

– Raffi was very good here as well; also like how she’s slowly working thru her issues.

– I found it interesting that 7 of 9 said “Annika has more work to do” before being released from the collective. They seemed like two distinct and separate personalities and I wonder where the writers will go with it as it did not feel like a throwaway line.

– Narissa was almost sympathetic for the first half of the episode and her motivations were actually understandable; too bad she reverted to her bitchy self in the second half.

– Speaking of which, was Narissa killed? Did she escape? Was she assimilated? That would be quite the twist. My brother seemed to think he heard a transporter and the green light would suggest she escaped to cause further mayhem.

– Admiral Clancy has quite the mouth on her. Her little meeting with Picard also brings me back to something I said back around the second or third episode, namely why didn’t Picard contact her when the Romulans tried to kill him at the chateau? Especially as he had a room full of evidence to show her.

– I’m a little confused about the world with the 8 suns and admonition and how or if it relates to Soji’s home world. If I understood correctly, information Romulans gleaned from the former, led them to seek out the latter but other than that there is no connection? If that’s the case, then I’m assuming this Destroyer everyone is worried about is someone or something we haven’t seen yet. I’m also not clear how or why a telepathic message that has been around for thousands of years would include a vision of Data. Did the makers of that world have temporal powers as well? I’ll be curious to see if any of that gets fleshed out.

Overall though, the episode kept me engaged and made me curious to see how things turn out.

Jay

What if Lore is the one on this Planet!? Working along with the real Maddox!?

TonyD

I’ve been wondering if they would bring Lore into the story at some point. Maybe it was him in the vision instead of Data.

Tim

Dont forgett the five “Q”ueen-Cards !

Marja

“Lored” Jaysus I hope not

We already have one super-hammy villain in this series, Narissa. I hope she didn’t escape the xBs, but ugh, probably did.

YKeeg

They’ve been POINTEDLY avoiding mentioning Lore in this series. And he’s still out there, allegedly decommissioned. They showed B4, in his little cubby, but they never mentioned Lore, who is essentially the Khan of TNG, and INTIMATELY involved, however peripherally, with this plotline.

ML31

I’m hoping they ignore Lore as just mentioning him will bring down the entire show. The concept was TNG first season hokiness on the level of a bad daytime soap. Data’s evil twin. Good grief… (facepalm)

Marja

ML31, Agreed. I hated the Lore episodes with their hammy, sarcastic, “dear brother” digs. The WORST.

Thorny

I’m betting her ‘brothers’ are Maddox clones. Soongh made androids in his image, Maddox followed suit.

The brothers don’t look like anyone Rios has seen yet.

If he recognized Soji as made in the same mould as Janna, then he will recognize duplicates of the male/brother android too.

Too bad Rios doesn’t draw. (Unlike Data’s male offspring with the flower name.)

Maybe Raffi will try to get Rios to generate an image using some kind of Starfleet Intelligence software.

Jay

Now I realize why Mudd came back with that short trek story with the androids.

Danpaine

Very much enjoyed this episode, on a number of levels. We’re really digging deep into some of the character’s personalities and backstories and motivations, and I think this story is becoming pretty cohesive. Interested, invested and excited to see where this season ends up. Some really good acting out of Patrick Stewart and Alison Pill this time, and really liked the depth added to Rios’ character. I like how we’re not involved in the Federation here per se, but we hear names and phrases which link us to it. The 5 Rios EMH’s are corny, but fun. I agree with those who say Elnor really has no place in the story (yet?), but I enjoy the character.

Still really unhappy they took out Hugh last episode, and still really unhappy with almost every ship design Kurtzman-Trek has come up with. Just ugly, and none of the space-scenes seem in-universe to me at all, which takes me out of the story. I think Oh and Narissa to be two of the worst, most shallow villains I’ve seen on a show in a long time.

That said, kind of bummed there is a week to wait until the next. I’m hooked. Hopefully they can resurrect DSC into something like this, but I’m not holding my breath on that. Hopeful about PIC, though. Engage.

Marja

Danpaine, I agree almost completely with your view here. I do like the ship designs though. I think Narek’s is boss and I like La Sirena. Don’t love all her empty space inside, but perhaps Rios previously earned his living hauling cargo?

Anduinel

I was just calming down about Hugh, then I saw Del Arco’s Ready Room interview and how much thought he put into Hugh’s arc and it’s like… nope, don’t mind me, I’m just gonna be standing over here, mad forever at the wasted potential.

JAGT

HOLY EXPOSITION DUMP, BATMAN!
That’s pretty much all I can say about the episode at this point, having watched it only once. I enjoyed it, but I’ll definitely need to rewatch it soon!

R W Tompkins

OMG. A small cabal of Romulans let most of their race die over fear of synthetics…….

TonyD

After reflecting a bit on the episode, I came to the same conclusion. If they’ve been around for thousands of years, you’d think they could have waited another year or two for the evacuation to take place before sabotaging the Mars synths. It’s one of several holes in the story, which is why neither this nor Discovery bear too close examination as it become all to easy to pick it apart.

Thorny

Yeah, that takes EXTREMISM to a whole new level!

ML31

That scene was really weird. What they saw was so bad they all killed themselves? What the fu*k????????? Why was Agnes able to comprehend it? That was STD level melodramatics.

And we still don’t know who set of the Romulan supernova.

Una McCormack’s novel, The Last Best Hope, definitely has the scientists on both Romulus and Earth finding that the profile of the supernova doesn’t match their modeling of natural phenomena.

Marja

Perhaps they will show this later, TG47, I hope so.

Because the whole “let the sun go nova” thing on the part of the Zhat Vash is stupid, stupid, stupid.

Corinthian7

Not sure how I feel about this episode yet, I think I need to give it a rewatch as I think I missed a lot. The something turning up when civilisations reach an AI threshold felt a little bit too much like Mass Effect’s Reapers or Babylon 5’s Shadows. I love both those properties but I’m not sure Trek needs to follow in their footsteps. I’m still hoping that Data or at the very least Brent Spiner will turn up in the final 2 episodes and presumably Clancy’s task force will be involved at some point so here’s hoping that it’s lead by the Enterprise E.

Pleaseletmecritique

Me again!

What I liked…
1. Raffi…yes…Raffi…she did a good job today with her interactions with the holograms. I certainly enjoyed the concept of the holograms all representing a part of Rios’ personality and I didn’t mind them using the scottish-accented Engineer trope.

2. Rios’ acting. Although I found the backstory to be a stretch the acting was very good and he is doing his absolute best with the script and screenplay he is given

3. Seven of Nine does a admirable job for the same reasons above.

4. Jurati and Soji characters are continuing to improve which is nice to see. It seems that there are flashes of originality and personality in these later episodes which I appreciate.

5. The Rizzo character has double-downed on the mustache twirling evilness and I can’t help but to respect it and he character seems to have a clear beginning, middle and end story in this episde – her actions make sense.

What I didn’t like…
1. The first scene which includes a memory from thousands of years ago which some how includes Data’s face…are the writers going going to ret-con Data’s creation or is it another plot thread that will get cast aside like so many others
2. Picard’s humiliation continues. Yelled at by at least two more angry women and reduced to an incompetent and useless figurehead in the last scene when he tries to take the controls
3. Finally, the big one. What is it with the obsession over Suicide? Synths committing suicide…Jurati thinking about suicide…Romulan warrior monks committing suicide (graphically) – I almost spat out my cornflakes…Rios’s Captain friend comitting suicide…This is episode 8 and there have been a ‘suicide’ or reference to suicide in 6 episodes so far.
4. The Body count goes overdrive. All those interesting characters reduced to corpses and mindless drones…MY GOD! What is 7-of-9’s character thinking?! Activating the Borg?

Overall, there are more positives than negatives – especially when it comes to what the Actors and Actresses are doing with their characters. But the screenplay and story still doesn’t make sense…and they know it…since they needed Exposition overload. More Rios, More Holograms…oh…and I actually liked the Admiral this time.

Rizzo did survive.She beamed away while being attacked by the borg

Pleaseletmecritique, I share many of your thoughts.

I still don’t get how you can consider that so many women are ‘yelling’ at Picard.

Confronting him, and giving him strong, assertive negative feedback, yes. Losing their temper (Laris and Clancy), yes. Raising their voices no.

Clancy has been the only woman who has come close to raising her voice and she’s the C-in-C!

On the other hand, both Riker and the former Romulan senator on Vashti did in fact raise their voices at Picard. And Elnor minced no words when he initially rejected Picard’s request. I find it remarkable that you haven’t commented on that.

ML31

I read the comment as a bit of hyperbole. It obviously wasn’t physical “yelling”. And I think most understand this. I do things like that in my daily speech quite often. Everyone I speak to seems to understand it.

Marja

ML31, It was the attached word “humiliated” that set me off.

Marja

Pleaseletmecritique, Wouldn’t Picard have been equally “humiliated” if an angry man had yelled at him?

And he’s only “useless” because he doesn’t know how to operate new technology. I think this was a comparison to my generation today, who have to read manuals very carefully to figure out their new Smartphones. And some smartphones don’t even HAVE manuals! I’m not stupid, though, I’m just analog. Try explaining a clock to a kid who grew up on digital, LOL.

Marja

A word, for heaven’s sake don’t use the word s-t-u-p-i-d in your comments or they will be moderated. Criminy!

Ian

The Romulan hatred of synthetic life forms is a very spotty thing to retcon. This show establishes that it is not just the Zhat Vash, but the whole society which distrusts artificial life. That connects vaguely to Sela specifically targeting Data’s ship in Redemption II, but not with the revelation that Romulan cyberneticists exist (The Defector), or with the lack of serious attempts to take out Data throughout his lifetime, even when he was on Romulus. One could chalk up their having B4 as an exercise in studying their enemy, but again, it is implied they distrust it so much they abhor the science related to it completely.

ML31

Actually I think it very much looked like only the double secret Tal Shiar are the ones who are anti AI. Less so Romulan society in general.

Chancellor Gowron

Zhaban did say that all Romulans avoid AI.

ML31

That was said, yes… But what what we see may not exactly support that….

Emperor Mike of the Terran Empire

This has happened before. It could happen again
150,000 to 200,000 thousand years ago. Interesting time frame. Humans built Synthetics on the first Earth,Kobal, and then the 12 Colonies. Ron More a Writer for TNG created the Re Imagined BSG and when they found our Earth it was 150,000 years ago. The First Earth was many centuries earlier and they also got destroyed by theer creation. I always wondered if the Borg originated from that period based on the events of BSG. ETC.

Um… you DO realize BSG and Trek aren’t in the same universe… right?

Whatever

BSG is what RDM wanted VOY to be.

bassmaster22

The writers are apparently though. Yikes. Just because you ignore the similarities doesn’t mean they are not there.

tom riker

loved it… there’s a whole lot of yes yes happening here… best moment when soji tells picard data loved him… and they are all great but Michelle Hurd really is awesome here and loved all the emf’s… and fun when picard gets in captains chair then is like um i can’t drive this thing

Kennelly

“Annika still has work to do” really didn’t sound like Seven, but more like someone else entirely commenting on her role to play in a grand scheme…

Moving stars would tie in VERY nicely with the T’Kon, but the timeframe given by Picard sounds alot like Iconians…

Andy

I took that as her referring to herself in the third person because in that moment she was the queen of the local collective and part of that hive mind and not an individual.

It could be that Annika was asserting her will, or negotiating with the Borg Queen with in her to be released.

I’m getting the feeling that this experience is going to leave Seen with two contending personalities rather than just a human trying to recover from assimilation.

Marja

TG47, I took it that way too, that Seven was asserting her human will. Your idea that she’ll have contending personalities is a good one … and a bit chilling, as Seven is probably the most advanced Borg alive.

YKeeg

I think the “micro-collective” was initialized using Seven’s set of values (possibly her subconscious?), and that collective recognized her as “Annika” even if she doesn’t.

Marja

I’m wondering if there is a Borg Sphere inside that Cube somewhere ….

Edward Samuela

I wonder if Elnor was originally intended to be depicted as much younger?

Right now, he comes off as a young man. But all of the dialogue which calls him a “boy” as well as the characterization of him as being someone who was sheltered from knowing anything beyond his upbringing, makes me wonder if the character was originally intended as a young teenager (basically a boy warrior contrast to the Wesley Crusher boy genius type). There was something about the way he asks Seven: “Are you gonna assimilate me now?” after she becomes the Queen, made me think that line was originally intended to come more from a child than an adult.

Also, when Soji and Picard are discussing Data, am I crazy for feeling like the way Picard and Soji discussed Data implied Picard had feelings for him that went beyond the “love” of a great friendship? The way Picard talked about Data just seemed off from what I would expect either from the character or what I think existed between Picard and Data.

I agree, he seems to look much older than the character he is supposed to play. I also don’t understand his usefulness this season.

Chancellor Gowron

I think they were talking about a father/son type of love.

YKeeg

Hell, *I* love Picard, because he was essentially the closest thing I had to a respectable father figure growing up.

Andy

He grew up in a convent of women who only ever speak the truth, I think it makes sense that he is naive and innocent.

Jlex

And yet he can kill by loping off people’s heads without any remorse

It’s what he’s been trained to do, Jlex, and it’s mandated by the religious order he’s been raised in.

It will be interesting to see how he develops.

The initial casting calls were for a teenager, and we know that Evan Egora was one of the last to be cast.

So, it might be that they had to adapt.

On the other hand, Elnor is of a long lived species, has been raised in the very sheltered environment of a religious order, and has been trained to put no inhibitions on saying what he thinks or demonstrating what he is feeling. That is inherently going to make him come across as child-like.

Last thought, is Elnor intended to attach to Seven and become a new ‘son’.

Marja

It’s been heavily implied that Elnor is a complete innocent, aside from his fighting ability.

As to Data-love, I wonder where they might go with that. I hope it’s just the camaraderie and father/son love, and the fact that Data gave his life to save Picard’s ….

TJex

Create a warning that cause those that see it go crazy and kill themselves is a terrible warning system.

martin

Yeah, they needed just a warning type system that would cause all these ladies to panic and go buy extra toilet paper.

Marja

martin, I am laughing so hard right now … the shelves are empty

Chancellor Gowron

It probably wouldn’t have driven members of their own species crazy. They couldn’t have predicted how different species would react millennia in the future.

TOS4LYFE

So does this connect to TOS episode “What are little girls made of”?!! Remember Rock talking about having to destroy as they revolted against their creators? Kind of interesting if there is a connection.

Karidian

Rios’s dead captain looks familiar. Is that Nicholas Myer?

Karidian

Thanks, Memory Alpha. I see Vandermeer is portrayed by an actor named Vincent Teixeira. Does kinda kook like Myer, though.

Ian

The AV Club’s review sums this episode up well IMO. This show is getting very sloppy and lazy. Last week was lovely, but even though I know we are in for some exciting stuff in the last two episodes, a lot of elements just haven’t come together very well. All of Picard’s character development was packed into the premiere and they’ve been treading water by having him continually get lectured or need to be propped up every week, and often he’s not central enough to the show at all.

Santiago Cabrera got to flex every acting muscle he has, but the connection he has to Soji is laughably stupid. So much of this episode is expository dialogue, it doesn’t even do a lot of what most bottle episodes do – develop character. We get some backstory for Rios and whatshername the incestuous boring Romulan, but very little insight for the latter and for anyone else. It’s all plot connections being told and not shown. Seven doesn’t fare any better either, all her worries about reconnecting to the Borg are dispensed with as lazily as can be.

As for the plot, it’s gotten very bog-standard. Barring some crazy revelations, the evil-behaving people who have acted like they are evil all season… it turns out they were responsible for the evil thing which screwed over Picard and the Romulans and the Synths. How thrilling.

ML31

Yeah… A lot of things have come together now. But the overall idea here… That AI’s should not be feared even though 99% of all of AI history has proven to be disasterous I find to be… Well… Insane. Picard is for 100% certain on the WRONG side of this one. His reasoning is tainted, biased and flawed. Because he has worked closely with the one and ONLY one AI that hasn’t presented some sort of horrid threat to the Federation in it’s entire history he thinks AI’s should be fine. Even though so very many have died as AI’s have tried to exterminate organic life nearly every other time they have been encountered. And now they have evidence it has happened before on a near universal scale. Also, that one version that was not malevolent has yet to be recreated. No one has reverse engineered the one version that has worked. With each passing moment it looks more and more like that one version was indeed a fluke. That one in a trillion chance it would work.

Sorry but our hero is wrong and the Romulans ultimate goal, while their methods are obviously monumentally callous, is the right one. I promise you even if it doesn’t happen in the show it is only a matter of time before Cyborg girl “activates” and intentionally or unintentionally destroys everything around it.

This show can be redeemed if they ultimately show that the Romulans have exactly the right idea when it comes to AI.

Cmd.Bremmon

I think more disturbing isn’t the idea that AI can be non destructive is the idea that we can engineer electronically everything organic life does (imagination, feelings, etc). I’m an engineer and I love robots, spacecraft, etc. I like to name my car and think of her as a person. But at the end of the day we must recognize our limitations and that is while a computer can do calculations faster than any cell and can look up information in a data base and even try to predict the future, it has no imagination. It in no way tries to modify algorithms based on emotional feelings. When you think about Data as Picard has he is PERFECT. He will live forever. He can lift a thousand pounds. He can come up with ideas. Don’t we all wish we were Data. But I challenge you, was Data not himself feeling emotionally limited? Did he not feel limited by imagination? And do we now place NO value in that? Bottom line – engineering “perfect life” is ANOTHER TNG false utopia. Consider that BOTH Picard and Borg casts aside organic life due to their imperfections. Think about it. Is Picard pining over his lost family? His lost love? Riker’s child lost under his command? Tasha Yar? Locutus wants Data.

ML31

Picard seems to have a hole in his logic concerning Data. He sees things that truly aren’t there and he justifies them to fit his emotional view of the situation. Example, I have been re-watching TNG lately and there was an episode where Data was playing in a string quartet. He admitted the playing style was not his own but rather an imitation of two other famous players. Picard insisted the style was original because Data chose which two to emulate to produce a hybrid style. But I would argue data’s programming dictated which two players to choose based on what the programmer preferred. It wasn’t inspiration on whose style to emulate. It was preordained. Data lacks that true inspiration but Picard chose to ignore that. And like someone in denial he justified the concept that Data was a unique individual along the same lines as any other sentient alien species they encountered. And his logic boils down to, “I worked closely with the Data android and I like him. Therefore, he is a sentient individual who deserves all the rights and privileges any organic life form has. But the truth is it is more like loving your car than anything else. The car responds to what it is being told to through the actions of the controls. Data responds to his environs based on what his programming tells him to. If his “ethical subroutines” were written by someone who felt that taking a life was an acceptable practice in every day life, he would do so without any qualms or 2nd thoughts or regrets.

shiro

“If his “ethical subroutines” were written by someone who felt that taking a life was an acceptable practice in every day life, he would do so without any qualms or 2nd thoughts or regrets.”

You could argue that with any human being. Born, made out of a finite number of cells and neurons, socially programmed. Some even take life without regrets, have that as a profession or a religious calling.

You are using abilities (e.g. music playing style, killing, lift a thousand pounds, imagination, feelings) to differentiate between sentience and non-sentience. Picard is arguing that Data is sentient. It doesn’t matter that he is a machine. You and Bremmon are arguing the opposite, that Data is not sentient. Fine. But you are using the wrong examples to argue your point.

ML31

No, I’m not using abilities to differentiate. I’m using logic and reason. A person as you described is called a sociopath. They do exist but have a difficult time functioning in civilized society. I’m arguing his non sentience because nothing of him is truly inspired from him. It’s ALL pre-programed. Right down preferences. It all comes from a program. Not from his own creation. While it is true a flesh and blood being could be raised to believe a certain thing, any creativity or preferences fro that being would be inspired from within. And that same being could, over time, learn that behavior is not proper. In a learning computer programed to be sociopathic it may learn that such behavior is wrong in this society but the programming would remain. Unless it was programmed for experience to override existing programming. But again, it wouldn’t be because it was inspired to learn and adapt, but it would because it was programmed to adapt. There is a different between inspiration and instruction. Parents cannot MAKE a child like raw tomatoes. You either do or you don’t. Data can be programmed to identify flavors even to emulate preferring some. But they aren’t his own. They come from programming.

Marja

ML31, A little off-topic here, but a big part of the problem with sociopaths is, they are able to FAKE being perfectly normal to normal people. Normal people are taken in by their charm, by their faked feelings, and so on, and sometimes come to a very, very bad end because of their trust in a sociopath.

ML31

True but even in hiding sociopathic behaviors will eventually emerge.

Cmd.Bremmon

Shiro, if you asked Data was he limited versus organic life would you not agree he would say yes and agree with our position versus yours? That’s why Data was “okay” as a character in my opinion. But imagine if Data said “yes, I am equal to the humans in imagination and emotional functions”? See the difference? And if engineering AI is perfect life as such the entire Starfleet of the future will be purpose built ultimate AI that can life forever, do everything, faster, stronger, etc. The Borg won’t assimilate, they will just keep building themselves better. Organic life would be irrelevant. Star Trek traditionally has opposed this (V’ger can’t do it all, the Ultimate Computer goes psycho, the Borg need organic assimilation by horrific means, Data wants to be a “real boy”).

shiro

Bremmon, if you read my post a little more carefully, I did not express my position on this debate. With both your responses, Bremmon and ML31, I now see–I think–that your differentiation between sentience and non-sentience is the ability to go beyond one’s programming. For ML31, the ability to do that, you called “learn and adapt”; For Bremmon it is something a little more vague, something about perfect life vs imperfect life, organic vs non-organic life, and limits in ability vs going beyond those limits. Did I understand you correctly? Note that once again, I am not giving you my own opinion.

ML31

In my case, it goes more than learn and adapt. A programmed, human made machine cannot have true inspiration. That inspiration would have undoubtedly come from the person who programmed it. It would not unique to the android.

shiro

“a human-made machine cannot have true inspiration”: could you explain why you think that?

You said (I’m paraphrasing) if the machine appeared to show inspiration it is only a result of its program, so it is not true inspiration; and you gave as example of true inspiration–a human’s–is the ability to learn and adapt and do something new and desire something (“creativity and preferences […] inspired from within”). Ok, but to me, it looks like you are using the observation of true inspiration as a test to judge an entity’s origin (artificial or not, sentient or not). But suppose you did not know the person in front of you was human made, and they did something that looked like it was true inspiration to you, how could you tell if it were artificial or not?

and follow-up questions that could help frame the discussion: do you think children/humans are human made or not? what about non-humans, like Ferengi, Vulcans, Klingons that are not human made? and holodeck/holographic characters like Moriarty, The Voyager Doctor? animals, plants? non-corporeal beings living in wormholes or the Q continuum? shape-shifting beings like Odo? is there a spectrum on the sentience scale or is it binary?

Cmd.Bremmon

Do I think Ferengi, Vulcans, Q and the Klingons are engineered electronic life forms? No. Do I think the Voyager hologram and Moriarty are life forms? I say no because otherwise TNG would be even lamer with not only everyone living in the holodeck when there is new life to explore but all new life coming out of the holodeck. How lame can TNG get???
Also the eugenics ban hypocrisy – why can you engineer perfect AI life but not allowed to engineer organics? What was the point of the Prime Directive, why do organics have to develop and potentially nuke themselves a couple times to learn lessons but electronic lifeforms just get a program and are on par? I think the TNG Federation is lame, but I can’t see them being that hypocritical and nonsensical.

shiro

So what is your definition of life form? is it based on whether it has an electronic or non-electronic origin?

ML31

First question… If I was looking at something that was artificial and there was no way to tell by looking, I would not know if it was true inspiration or not. If the artificial person said they loved strawberries, I would figure it was a genuine individual who preferred strawberries. Not some artificially created person who was programmed to like strawberries. Or at least claim to like them. However, failure to recognize and AI because of the appearance of the chassis doesn’t change what is going on beneath.

I’m not going to get into the differences between biological reproduction and artificially building a device. That difference is self evident and I see no reason to waste time in the discussion going over things I think we are both intelligent enough to differentiate between.

Cmd.Bremmon

I think you got it. You and ML31 defines it better as a concept with “ability to go beyond ones programming”. I use the term “perfect life” because while the actual scientific concepts are fascinating, my real objection is that it makes for bad storytelling. They are going to write themselves into dead end. If you can have it where starfleet makes a thousand Mary Sues who can live forever, run forever, answer any problem, in-destructible… good for them but what are they going to have to learn? What hardships are they going to have to face? How are we as mortal humans facing hardships going to be able to relate to any of that theoretical nonsense which so much Star Trek V’ger, the Borg, The Ultimate Computer, etc. already rejected? Making the Borg the good guys where they don’t need organics in no way sounds fun to watch at all.

Marja

But WHY does Data want to be a “real boy” — is that part of his program, to have a desire?

Cmd.Bremmon

Anyway I don’t know if that is a program or desire. Exploring that is the fun of the Data character (his super abilities are boring for storytelling). I think the high level question though is why and what does he think he is missing?
I’d say look to Spock talking V’ger in TMP (forum won’t post the quotes). V’ger needs imagination and thinks only by merging with a creator can he do that. Spock acknowledges that despite having all the knowledge of the universe (McCoy what’s more than the Universe?) V’ger needs human qualities to leap beyond logic. Picard says human qualities are so non-special they can be programmed by Maddox. In which one of these scenarios is the human adventure more exciting?

His Eminence

I read comments often, but rarely post.

Can I just say, I am thoroughly impressed with the level of intelligent discourse in this thread.

It was riveting. And as we approach AI in real life, an extremely important ethical dilemma.

ML31

There is even a TNG episode where it was mentioned that the Enterprise computer can make the computations faster than Data can. But still it was decided for Picard to manually maneuver the ship because of “the human factor” Or “gut feelings” if you will. Something Data, nor the ship’s computer, have. Data was the best AI ever and he was incapable of intuition. Vulcans were not incapable of it. They just DECIDED not to trust it over research.

Also, data was really only there to be the outsider in terms of story telling. He served a similar role that Spock did in TOS. But I feel a “real” character would have worked much better than an android in that function. Perhaps that’s just me…

Finally had the opportunity to view this episode.

Before I read any comments, I want to put out there that I quite loved this episode.

I know that the critical reviews aren’t uniformly positive for this one, but for me episode 8 is true to what the show is, and very much in the spirit of Trek. Bravo.

I’m fairly gut punched by the apparent loss of XBorg life, but that in itself challenges us to realize that all the Borg killed in TNG, Voyager and the film’s were people, and victims.

I finally felt that Narissa’s character was credible, and Peyton List’s performance was compelling. It makes me regret that she and Narek had been written the way the were in the earlier episodes. It would have been a better mystery and more engaging if she hadn’t been portrayed as so unmitigatedly a villain.

ML31

It might have helped if their goal was revealed earlier. But I think TPTB wanted that to remain a mystery longer.

Cmd.Bremmon

Amazing how little people value their self and freedom. Anyone else see being killed while under the control of an evil unimind, regardless of the intentions, as a blessing?
Picard is the Into Darkness of TNG. Poor BORG!!!! All they wanted was utopia and diversity all together!!!!

YKeeg

Yes. The story would have been so much better-textured if we knew that Narek and Narissa were not just zealots blindly following a nebulous cause, but were thinking, rational people doing what they thought was “the right thing”.

I don’t like the characters, but I think I’d like them more if I KNEW them. Some “Romulan culture exposition” could have explained away the “Lannisterian behavior”. I don’t like that I find Narissa somewhat relatable NOW after 8 episodes, when she’s been a blatantly cookie-cutter villain for two months.

And if the Zhat Vash were all female, how come Narek Scamander is a member?

Marja

YKeeg, I agree totally with cultural exposition. I think Narek may show us he cannot blindly follow the nebulous cause. Perhaps he’ll throw the spanner in the works.

I think the leaders of the Zhat Vash were/are female.

Scott

7/9 is the biggest bad ass of the show so far.

Dr C

After this episode I think I’d have preferred the series to focus purely on Rios and his departure from Starfleet.

The Android planet idea reminded me of Turing from the myriad universes story “brave new world”. There seem to be a lot of beta canon references in PIC (eg Picard on the reliant which I think has been canonised for the first time).

The holograms have a hard time doing some accents, but I enjoyed those scenes immensely.

The finale may include the fleet from DS12 shooting the Romulans and thousands upon thousands of little fighter crafts allowing for a reuse of footage from the Discovery s2 finale (since they like to reuse DSC footage).

I remember human looking synths who didn’t know they were synths when they were on Battlestar Galactica. I enjoyed it on Galactica (I even liked the way that show ended).

The scene with Picard and Soji where they talked about Data was the most “Picard” like scene in the whole show. Otherwise Picard has been stomping about like old man irumodic syndrome Picard did in AGT. He often seems like he’s going to say “the chicken and the egg, Will, the chicken and the egg!” Picard is written very inconsistently imo.

It’s ok. I’d like a spinoff about Rios when he served on the ds9 season 8 class ship. Also Raffi was good this week.

Marja

I would def enjoy a Rios and Raffi-inspired show. If Picard dies a heroic death [as I suspect he will, at some point], perhaps that’s the plan? I’ve become quite fond of them and Elnor [I keep wanting to call him Elrond!]. Even Jurati, if her training is relevant.

Dr C

Same – I really enjoyed the Rios and Raffi scenes this week. I’m finding the new characters more compelling than Picard at this point.

Maybe Picard’s death will lead to a Q scene like it did last time Picard died

ML31

If this show was just the exploits of the Serena crew w/o Picard I would only complain if the situations were bad. This is an interesting group they put together.

Michael K

This episode had some interesting writing and character moments, although the episode didn’t come together as tightly as I think it needed to. This show has a tendency of cutting the climax off at the knees, so we never get the big pay off to any of the build ups and it felt particularly frustrating here, especially when it comes to the Seven taking over the Borg. A great exciting moment and ultimately ends abruptly, although I am curious about what happens next and hope it’s bigger. The show seems to be missing out on excitement, which gives me the impression that it’s just on a short leash. The anti-synth origin story is unfolding with some interesting ideas, particularly the idea of a threshold and how they relate that to the Warp = First Contact scenario. The Rios Hologram party was a great idea executed somewhat poorly, it didn’t quite work and needed some better direction and editing. More importantly, I didn’t really understand how the holograms work and why they seem to be selective about what they retain or reveal. It was just a little clumsy, but a great idea only Star Trek could come up with. Overall, a solid episode that propels the story, although it’s something of a let down from the preview.

Marja

I have NEVER understood holograms, except the communications-projected type they used in Discovery.

They are made of light. How then can they pick up things and interact with humans as if their bodies have substance? It makes no sense. In the vast lore of Star Trek, what have I missed? Is it EVER explained?

TNG expends a fair bit of technobabble on ‘holo matter’ as does Voyager.

Ian

Forcefields.

John Bigbootee

I hope that the Starfleet squadron on it’s way to help, is headed by the Enterprise-G, with Captain Reginald Barclay at the ‘Con!!!

tom riker

snap…

Marja

Captain Worf for me. Barclay could be Chief Engineer, but he’s prob an Admiral by now because of his genius.

Trek in a Cafe

So…. who is The Beautiful Flower? And is that what Raffi has been smoking?! And (for giggles) are there 8 Sojis?! And has Clancy been the victim of Oh’s mindmeld?

tom riker

stay tuned after these messages from flowers.com

Marja

I still like Elnor. I hope they find more for him to do.

Jlex

Maybe he can get a gig on Amazon’s LOTR

Fasafan

Yep!

TOS4LYFE

So does this connect to TOS episode “What are little girls made of”?!! Remember Rock talking about having to destroy as they revolted against their creators? Kind of interesting if there is a connection.

ML31

That is just another example for why AI research in the Trek would should end.

Cmd.Bremmon

I honestly don’t think the research should end.. to show the quest to engineer “perfect” life backfires in the end and give us lots of dilemmas and madmen.

Marja

That’s true, Ruk was an android! Good question, to the several who have posed it.