Review: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Cuts Deep In “Terra Firma, Part 2”

“Terra Firma, Part 2”

Star Trek: Discovery Season 3, Episode 10 – Debuted Thursday, December 17, 2020
Teleplay by: Kalinda Vazquez; Written by: Bo Yeon Kim & Erika Lippoldt & Alan McElroy
Directed by: Chloe Domont

SPOILER-FREE REVIEW

A serious follow-up to last week’s more campy first part, Sonequa Martin-Green and Michelle Yeoh create a strong character study with a few bonus moments of delight. With some twists and turns and explorations of Trek mythology, this is an episode that will be long remembered and much discussed amongst fans.

Greatest punishment in the Mirror Universe, no bling

 

RECAP

WARNING: Spoilers below!

“I believe you can change, as I have”

Picking up right where we left off but with the pace slowed way down, Mirror Michael is tossed into the ISS Discovery brig where the Emperor is determined to break her. Fully committed to her Terran redo, Phillipa wants to remold this rebel Burnham into something like her new favorite from Prime. This kinder, gentler Georgiou also has a vision of a better Empire, we can be more, but first we must remake ourselves.”

But we are still in the land of agonizer booths. The tough love rehabilitation is put under the not-so-kind administrations of Captain Killy, yet it is a bit of peer pressure combined with a sentimentality that appears to get through to the defiant daughter. Once she’s back on Team Emperor, Michael commits to eliminating all co-conspirators, as she and her sidekick Detmer play bad cop/psychopathic cop until Keyla herself became the final loose end to tie up… except for the elusive Lorca.

I just want to kill you, mom, why is that so hard for you to understand?

“This is who I have always been… you made me.”

As Georgiou binge-watched Michael’s torture sessions on TV, she had some quality time with her new pal Mirror Saru, who seems to be the only person around who really gets her. She even saves his life again, recommending he (and his Kelpien friends) find a quiet place to go through Vahar’ai instead of being culled. For all the glam and camp fun of it, these moments are the strongest in the MU, with Doug Jones continuing to impress. Now this slave is genuinely worried that the new Emperor and her peaceful methods to quell the growing alien coalition threat are going to get her killed. She is still ruthless and considers democracy to be hilariously fragile—okay, maybe she has a point there—but Georgiou is showing that she really has changed.

As for Michael, not so much. After a truncated search for Lorca comes up empty at Risa, she reveals her true power-hungry nature, and takes another shot at grabbing that gold ring. Following a mini civil war on the detention level pitting Michael’s new traitors against Georgiou’s loyalists, it is the Kelpiens that make the difference with some impressive fighting that includes Saru pwning Culber. A beautifully choreographed and heartbreaking final showdown ends with Mirror Michael again meeting her fate at the end of a sword, with Georgiou following it up by dying in Saru’s arms. You just can’t catch a break in the MU.

Mirror Michael shows off her moonwalk

“Was any of it real?”

And we’re back! Snapping out of her Mirror Universe trip, Georgiou finds herself back on Dannus VI only a minute after she walked through the door and went unconscious, but her Fitbit says she has been gone for three months. Trippy. Carl is still here of course, and abstruse as ever with “See that’s what you do with doors, you pass through.”

The enigmatic doorman has a brand-new version of tomorrow’s newspaper, and this time it says “Emperor Georgiou’s Fate Uncertain.” So, things are looking up. Yet the Emperor’s original problem persists… she cannot survive in this time and place, and Carl confirms that she is no longer a good fit back home in the Terran Empire (a place she has lost interest in anyway). At this point, they are as confused as the audience as to what exactly is going on here and so Carl finally drops the reveal on who he really is: “I am the Guardian of Forever.” Bam.

We have a wide selection of portals, we call this one Gateway Classic

“Where the hell have you been?”

Up on the Discovery—that’s USS, not ISS—the season-long mystery investigation continues on a slow burn. See what I did there? Adira and Stamets are struggling to break through the radiation around the distant nebula containing the Kelpien ship, which is the latest big clue. And like a wisecracking phoenix, a licorice-chomping Reno thankfully returns to our lives to complain about them rerouting all her power. Jett’s been busy upgrading the ship and she’s given them all she’s got. But Book—yes he’s not just a handsome empath—has the solution: a subspace Wi-Fi booster made by the Emerald Chain.

This bit of distraction on the Disco was just what this very heavy episode needed, and in fact we could have probably used a bit more of  Reno moaning about what all these crazy kids are doing to her ship. Later Admiral Vance chimes in, and he’s in a bit of a mood over the use of Chain tech and feeling a bit out of the loop back at HQ. Osyraa—ugh, remember her?—is bugging him and he takes it out on poor Saru, accusing the captain of being distracted by Kelpiens. But even Vance skirts “badmiral” trope territory when he begrudgingly gives them the green light to continue their investigation.

No, I did not bring enough for the class

“You are my Phillipa”

Back with Carl of Forever, he explains he used to be just a simple space and time portal, but s**t got real during the Temporal Wars, so he went into hiding. No longer will he let any Tom, Spock, or Harry go through to the past; now you have to run through the demo version. The good news is, Phillipa gets his thumbs up. Sure, she skewered her daughter—again—after Michael killed all who opposed her. But she tried playing nice and she saved Saru, so “A” for effort. Now for realzies she will be sent back to a time in the Prime universe when it was close enough to the Mirror Universe for her molecules to remain attached. The Guardian may be billions of years old, but he has become much more user-friendly in the last thousand or so.

Now comes the hard part, saying goodbye. It may be Discovery-style melodrama, but Martin-Green and Yeoh sell this touching goodbye. Like a combination of George Bailey and The Grinch, Georgiou has learned her lesson and is ready for what awaits her with a whole new—dare I say, hopeful—outlook, and a bit of advice for Michael to be all she can be. And with that Georgiou, Carl, and his gateway vanish in a puff of fan service. The goodbyes for Georgiou go into overtime with an unnecessary Irish wake on the Disco, where suddenly everyone has nice things to say about their pet tyrant. But I keep thinking about Georgiou’s parting words — telling Michael her destiny is in the captain’s chair… a chair currently occupied.

She was evil, but she was our evil

ANALYSIS

Let’s get serious

This is one of those part-two episodes that continues the story but feels like a very different episode. The smash into a slower pace, a character focus, and the darker and more serious tone are a bit jarring at first. But it is all befitting what is one of those milestone episodes, in this case saying goodbye to a key character and actor who was there from the start. And like in part 1, there were many scenes and moments which were nods to those early days of Discovery, including ending Michael spending time with The Emperor the same way this journey began in “The Vulcan Hello,” with a Georgiou inspiring Michael to seek out her destiny to be better, and specifically to command… which is the greatest destiny one can have in Star Trek.

This all worked to an extent, but like so often with Discovery, they take things a bit too far. Sometimes it feels like the characters on the show treat Emperor Georgiou with the reverence, respect, and honor that the cast and crew have for the real-life legend Michelle Yeoh. So while the actress is deserving IRL, some of these in-universe character moments can feel unearned. And Yeoh is worthy of praise for her work in this two-parter, which has been her best acting on the series to date, for either of her characters. Sonequa Martin-Green was also strong, and both Mary Wiseman and Emily Coutts added some nuance to the camp of the Mirror Universe, revealing more of the everyday terror it must be to live there. And what else can be said about Tig Notaro, except more please.

Haven’t we done this before?

It’s not entirely clear if Georgiou’s actions in the Mirror Universe will have any impact on that timeline, if they even happened at all, or was the whole experience was just a test by the Guardian. It could be they are keeping this vague so it can be explored in her upcoming series or with future visits to the MU from Discovery itself. Georgiou mentioned the character San from her visions in passing, but this still feels like a loose end that may get picked up in the Section 31 show.

Not including Jason Isaacs as Mirror Lorca may make sense because his presence could have been a distraction from the focus on Yeoh and her exit, but maybe they shouldn’t have kept talking about him in part 1, setting up a bit of an expectation that he must be coming in part 2.

Sara Mitich and Wilson Cruz are demanding to keep their cool new outfits

Full-service

Turns out the theory was right and Carl was The Guardian of Forever, from the classic TOS episode “City of the Edge of Forever.” No doubt this blew some fans’ minds, especially those who don’t freeze-frame to read headlines on a newspaper prop. And bringing in such an iconic character/device/portal lends weight to an episode, giving some more honor and respect to Michelle Yeoh’s big goodbye.

Discovery did of course play with the concept of the Guardian to make it their own—as they do—and fans can reasonably debate the reasons for the changes. And it can be argued they were honoring “City” writer (and famously curmudgeonly sci-fi author) Harlan Ellison’s original vision of Guardians as a race that controlled the Time Vortex. But mainly what they did is make the Guardian into a character you can have an interesting conversation with, and a character with his own agency and motivations. These are all good things that you want with a character, but it raises the question of why bother with the Guardian at all, beyond the fan service.

The jump into the 32nd century was to take Discovery “beyond canon” and on to “fresh snow.” But at times it feels like this show is afraid to walk out on that snow and it can’t quit calling back into canon. While we have met some very interesting and well-written characters like Vance and Kovich, they haven’t been taking any risks when it comes to creating new civilizations, which is of course at the core of Star Trek. It could possibly honor Star Trek, even more, to carry on the tradition of superbeings by making Carl their own character. He was already interesting before we even knew he was the Guardian, which could make him less interesting or at least, less likely to be their own recurring Q-like character.

Goodbye

In the end “Terra Firma” was an excellent, enjoyable, fun episode that got watered down a bit by spreading it into a two-parter. While this may befit the exit of a major star and setting up her eventual return in a new series, like in season one, the trip to the MU started to wear out its welcome. It’s time to get back to the neglected main storylines of season three.

The Real Housewives of Terra, coming this fall

Random extra bits

  • To reflect the Mirror Universe theme, the visuals for opening credits are shown in negative and upside down.
  • All the action takes place on ISS Discovery for production reasons, but they could have handwaved some excuse that the ISS Charon or ISS Shenzhou are not seen.
  • The coalition that was forming against Terran Empire was comprised of Romulans, Tellarites, Klingons, Andorians and potentially Denobulans, Rigelians, and Coridanites. This could be the same Alliance headed up by Mirror Voq/Fire Wolf, which Michael called a “coalition of hope” in season one.
  • In the Prime Universe, the Coalition of Planets was the predecessor to the UFP.
  • Georgiou’s TV could “kill with a push of a button,” which indicates she had a Tantalus Field like Mirror Kirk of the ISS Enterprise.
  • Mirror Michael wore a similar prison jumpsuit (black of course) as Michael Prime after she was convicted of mutiny (against Prime Georgiou)
  • Mirror Lorca uses the alias “Vicar.”
  • In the MU, Risa has rings.
  • For an evil universe, the brig cells and meals seem pretty nice… except for the agonizer sessions.
  • Apparently, the 13th century Mongol Empire leader Genghis Khan is highly respected by the Terran Empire, even though he allowed conquered people to keep their own cultures.
  • Reno says the ship was upgraded with polaric warp conduits. Polaric Ion Energy was highly volatile and banned in the 23rd century after the Discovery left.
  • This episode has the unusual combination of a “teleplay by” with a “written by” credit (usually it either just “written by” or “teleplay by” and “story by”). Likely this is due to some WGA attribution arcana.
  • Line of the week: “Kelpien flesh is too high in cholesterol and it’s stringy.”
  • Bonus line: “This isn’t food, it’s candy. It’s practically an accessory.”

Get your hands off me, you damn dirty Terrans!

More to come

Every Friday the new TrekMovie.com All Access Star Trek Podcast covers the latest news in the Star Trek Universe and discusses the latest episode. The podcast is available on Apple PodcastsSpotifyPocket CastsStitcher and is part of the TrekMovie Podcast Network.


New episodes of Star Trek: Discovery premiere on Thursdays on CBS All Access in the U.S. and on CTV Sci-Fi Channel in Canada, where it’s also available to stream on Crave. Episodes are available on Fridays internationally on Netflix.

Keep up with all the news and reviews from the new Star Trek Universe on TV at TrekMovie.com.

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Georgiou had a Tantalus field. That explains a lot. I wonder how Kirk ended up with it later?
Loved Mirror-Burnham, but who didn’t want to see Burnham in an agonizer booth. Seriously SMG did a great job in that role.
We all sort of suspected Carl was the Guardian, but what about the consequences of sending Georgiou to the MU? In TOS and TAS, Guardian trips didn’t create new timelines, but rather changed the original timeline. Are all the MU events we have seen on screen (except Enterprise, but including earlier DISC seasons, the result of Georgiou’s actions here? If so, what about Mirror Stamets being alive in the MU as seen earlier on DISC?

Last edited 6 months ago by Anthony Pascale

I think the Tantalus field is a reach.
Kirk’s device could target individuals anywhere within range, Killy’s “kill at the touch of a button” could just refer to cranking the Agonizer booth up to max, pumping the air out of the cell or beaming Michael into space.

I think, given the device on Georgiu’s wall (oddly on Discovery for some reason?) it’s a Tantalus field. Same design, same buttons, etc.

I thought the same when I watched the show. It was the scene you are talking about. I thought of it later and compared the one in Discovery and the one in Mirror Mirror. They look very much alike. The screen looks more modern in Discovery, but the button and control layout is the same.

Rewatching and comparing, yeah the layout is too similar.
Small recessed screen, two dials under, five buttons to the right, big button above those.
And since the only canon information we have about it is second hand from an unreliable source (Mirror Kirk via Mirror Marlena Moroe) we can’t really take that for truth either.

I was thinking Tantalus field as well but it really didn’t make any sense for her to have one. To be fair they never mentioned it by name so it may not have been one. But to even hint at it shows the bad writing.

I was hoping it wasn’t a guardian. That just felt very wrong. And it was. You are correct. If it sent Georgeau to the past then she could change the past and the way it has been presented was that such maneuvers don’t create new timelines but they change the one everyone is in. So one can conclude that Georgeau made no universe altering changes. Unless they discover that she was the one who put the “burn” into motion early on.

And since when has the Guardian been so interested in a person’s welfare, such as Georgiou? It didn’t care if Spock completely vanished from the timeline that time. It didn’t care that the Enterprise or the whole Federation vanished that other time. I’d like to see a story set in the timeline that was glimpsed in COTEOF, but was later erased by Edith Keeler dying.

But could it be that the Guardian evolved? When Kirk and co. found it, it had been waiting for billions of years with no contact. Then, contact. Lots of contact if we count non-canonical events. Then finally the Temporal Wars, which caused the Guardian to move, if I heard Carl correctly. Maybe that caused it to change.

Different planet, different Guardian?

The problem is no one really knows the nature of the thing. The answers it gave were pretty vague, too. “I am both. And neither.” Sadly that means that lazy writers like those on STD can add their own mythology to something that works far better as a complete mystery.

After a disappointing first partner in my opinion, this week bounced back on all cylinders firing at full warp. Loved it!

Oh and that Guardian reveal gave me some serious goosebumps – I skipped back to watch just that scene a few more times!!

Goosebumps and chills for me. It was incredible. I haven’t felt this excited about Trek in a long time. It brought back a flood of good feelings and memories.

Wow. We had 180 degree different reactions. I felt like this show just too a leak all over The City on the Edge of Forever.

You’re trying too hard to compare apples to oranges here. The similarities are obvious. City was a completely different atmosphere and emotional situation.

The tone of the episodes and shows has nothing to do with the fact that Discovery disrespected the entire concept of the Guardian and in doing so, the excellent episode it was in. Also don’t know what “obvious similarities” has to do with anything being discussed here.

Agreed.

Re: Guardian reveal- RIGHT?!?! Like, I knew, but that reveal was still effing epic!

The Guardian reveal with the voice and actor equals Picard looking into the screen and it matches up with Locutus equals Timer rising in on the Titan! Great job new Trek!!

I had exceedingly low expectations going into this second-parter, for several reasons: one, they’ve strayed into the Mirror Universe far too many times; two, I’ve disliked the Mirror Georgiou character; three, there are a lot more interesting 30th-century plot threads to explore in Discovery.

But my final verdict? Wow. Impressively done.

This wasn’t the typical mirror universe tale that gives the actors an excuse to ham it up. It was actually a serious character study of redemption and forgiveness. Does one’s character result from choices, or is it innate? Of course, these are very old themes in literature, and exploring them anew requires deft execution, which, happily, we got. Mirror *Burnham* was the unredeemable one. Mirror Georgiou was not.

Perhaps I’d have liked to see a little more of how Georgiou transitioned from “Space Hitler” to Xena. But ultimately, I bought the transition, which I wasn’t expecting. She’s perhaps less “Space Hitler” than Space Wehner von Braun.

OK. Here a theory on why this episode seems to be liked here in the early going. Fans seem to really like fan service even if the show or episode the service is in is terrible. Fans loved the Talos IV episode in S2. It was a bad episode but hey… Talosians! Vena! Fan service. Many seemed to love Lower Decks. That show was little more than 10 episodes chalked full of fan service. This episode has the Guardian in it! Must be great!

They wasted Rehka Sharma. Why bring her back if they don’t make good use of her?

She’s hot

Yes they did. But they do that.

It would be interesting to know the background on how the Guardian of Forever ended up back on screen. Harlan Ellison was rabidly litigious about the character and kept it out of Trek for decades. Now that he is dead and his wife is dead, I wonder if his estate sold the character back to Paramount-CBS.

I know people like to claim that, but it’s not really true. The guardian appeared in comics from multiple publishers, as well as numerous novels and RPG books.

It is true that the character never appeared on screen between TAS and now (almost 50 years), and that Ellison was very litigious about the character. He is on video talking about it.

Last edited 6 months ago by Just Another Salt Vampire

Considering what they did with it in this episode, he might have had a point. I think there was a lot of potential for the whole concept, but again, frittered away by the current powers that be. Kind of like Star Trek as a whole.

Yeah people keep saying this like it’s some iron clad fact. I don’t understand how after hundreds of episodes, books, comics, movies, etc where they can reference anything they want, this ONE guy and his episode is somehow considered off limits to the rest of the franchise? Even Roddenberry himself couldn’t stop the studio from using whatever they wanted in other shows or films and he created the damn thing; so how can this guy suddenly do it? It’s all intellectual property of Paramount before and now CBS because they own the entire franchise. That’s how it works. I heard a writer may get a small cut if something they created in a show or movie like a character or something is used outside the original story, but they can’t STOP them from using it either.

But as you said, they have used the GoF in other stories for decades now, including a TAS episode. So where are people getting this bizarre idea it couldn’t be used in other stories without his permission? I only heard this online and not from any actual producers of the show. It just sounds like one of those odd Trek urban legends everyone now tells themselves it’s true.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Again I GET that! I have said multiple times now, if he’s owed something they were suppose to pay him for, then OK. That’s not what I’m talking about though. I’m saying people are suggesting he OWNS these elements as his own property when that’s not true.

Yes they may have not paid him for using something, this happens every day in Hollywood. But they have the right to use whatever they want. That’s the difference.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Well, it’s not an urban legend that Ellison did indeed receive a settlement over the (mostly non-canonical) use of the Guardian over the years. As to why he received compensation while others haven’t, I’m not sure, but suspect it may boil down to the same reason the shlump got the Homecoming Queen: he pursued the matter and others didn’t.

Maybe they didn’t pay him for using it when they should have, but that’s VERY different from suggesting they CAN’T use it without his permission. Those are two very different things.

As I said, I know writers are suppose to get some kind of compensation if they created something and it’s used in other source material. But in this situation, people treat it as if Ellison owns the rights to it and CBS can’t use it unless he allowed it. It just sounds like what happens in Hollywood all the time and someone didn’t get compensated enough for their work and they sued them over it. And that was decades ago already.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

I think this is the opposite: Ellison kept his rights.

Why would anyone give him the rights to an episode though? There has been tens of thousands of hours of TV, I never heard this done before, at least from a single episode. Very very few creators ever own the shows they create in general, so they don’t have much control over anything once those shows are done outside of getting residuals.

Look at Glenn A. Larson for example. That guy made oodles of TV back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Tons of iconic shows and yet I think out of the 50+ shows he made, he only had rights to a handful of them like BSG. And even sued the studio over the rights when they wanted to reboot it. And he lost in fact saying he didn’t own it anymore.They would send him a check for using the characters, but he had zero control on what they could actually do with it.

His stuff is being rebooted all the time now for various movies and shows (everything old is new again!). I don’t they they have to get permission from his estate about any of it.

Can someone give me another example of any show where a guest writer came in to write an episode for a show he didn’t create or produce but kept all of the material that happens in it as theirs? And 50 years later?

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

There is a very long and convoluted history between Ellison and Roddenberry and the studio over the script credit and rights for “City on the Edge of Forever” that goes back to 1966. Ellison and Roddenberry fought about it for 25 years. Books have been written about the turmoil.

That is probably the reason that the Guardian of Forever has been legally problematic, and as you note a much different case than a standard episode of episodic television.

OK, but I guess CBS worked it out because it’s there. Unless his kids or something will try to sue over it.

Can someone give me another example of any show where a guest writer came in to write an episode for a show he didn’t create or produce but kept all of the material that happens in it as theirs? And 50 years later?

Can’t say it’s “all” the material, but I understand that the character of T’Pol was originally envisaged as a young T’Pau from “Amok Time,” a plan that was abandoned due to residuals potentially being payable to the writers of that episode every time an ENT episode aired.

There’s also Nick Locarno/Tom Paris.

OK, but to be fair we’re talking main characters that were going to be around for literally years, so I can understand not wanting to use them if you have to pay someone every time their name is mentioned (would love to know how much something like that would for the writer).

Look I’m not trying to get into a big fight about this, but it just sounds to me Paramount tried to stiff him before and he spoke up. And good for him, but no one has really proven he had direct rights either.

Just Another Salt Vampire (where do people come up with these names lol) at least made it clear Ellison tried to make it an issue and wanted those rights, but from what I can tell it never really got resolved.

And I can only imagine the headache something like that would be if EVERY writer on a TV show can claim ownership of something because they wrote it in a script in episode 121; it would turn things upside down. Obviously writers should get the credit they deserve for creating something, but when you’re doing it in an already existing franchise you can’t expect too much over it, because you’re still just playing in someone else’s sandbox, you didn’t build it yourself. That’s always been an issue for Hollywood though and why there ends up being a writer’s strike every few decades. That’s also why writers who are on staff fight to become producers on these shows, because then they do have a little more ownership (and money).

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Ellison threatened to sue Paramount when speculation was running rampant about the Guardian being utilized in the 2009 film. When it was apparent that it was not he backed off and wished them well.

He was a brilliant man, brilliant writer but very protective of his works and pretty much despised Roddenberry. In Stephen King’s “Danse Macabre” he shares this great story about being called in to pitch an idea for TMP that basically involved the Enterprise returning to Earth only discover that they somehow altered Earth’s history and reptiles, not humans, evolved into Earth’s dominant, sentient species. Kirk is faced with a dilemma: if he restores the timeline this species and their history will be erased. The response was that the story wasn’t big enough. Ellison got a tad irate and Roddenberry said, “Who the hell do you think you are?” Ellison responded as one might expect Ellison to respond: “I’m a writer. I don’t know what the F*** you are!”

And, well, there you go. He would likely have given a pass to the Guardian being utilized in comics and novels if it meant supporting fellow writers. As a vehicle utilized by a studio? Not so much.

Actually I remember that about the 2009 movie Dennis C. I was going to bring it up myself. Again though, that’s understandable if you are suppose to get paid for something but the studio undercuts you. Of course it was never in the cards, but I remember Ellison got angry about it

In this vein people talk as if he directly owns what he wrote in that episode and I don’t really buy that. I never heard this said before from ANY writer or producer on Star Trek and that’s Roddenberry himself. He was certainly no different on how protective he was of the franchise, even moreso for creating it. But AFAIK, I don’t think Roddenberry could do anything to stop Paramount at the time from using characters or elements from whatever they wanted and HOWEVER they wanted to use them. We probably wouldn’t have had half the movies if that was the case lol.

I never heard that story about TMP though. That’s pretty funny. Both he and Roddenberry sound like they had major egos!

Ellison was very self aware and, yes, he had a big ego which he never shied away from.

He did successfully sue after the release of “Terminator” after claiming that they ripped off his story “Soldier” from “The Outer Limits”.

Yeah, if Harlan is owed a check, the accountants will take care of it. The Harlan stuff is overblown.

Never trust Hollywood accountants.

Some of us long time fans have waited DECADES for the Guardian of Forever to be featured again in a Star Trek story, maybe even in one of the feature films (saving Kirk from the Nexus?), and they WASTE the opportunity by dropping it in to THIS CRAPPY SHOW?????

Agreed Harry. Would have rather seen it used for a Kirk return. I never took to Michelle Yeoh’s portrayal of the character. I know she is well regarded but in terms of this series she is just average at best.

Kirk is like 100, why would he return?

its better than doing commercials

A34, don’t get me wrong, I was just floating the Nexus scenario as an example of a big event in one of the feature films. I have zero interest in bringing Shatner back (at this point). Maybe they could have featured the Guardian in a 4th Kelvin universe film, where the Pine Kirk and crew go back in time to “correct” the universe, returning it to the Prime timeline.

Well it can always return again in another show. ;)

Since GoF is still very much around in the 32nd century and can move around, there are lots of opportunities to showcase it in the future (or past ;)).

I really want to hear more about it now, so hope we do see it again at some point.

True, Tiger2, but here’s the thing……If finally, at a critical moment in one of the feature films, the Guardian was introduced (to save the day), that would likely be a spine-tingling moment.
However, if every time some Trek TV writers get writer’s block, they throw it in to save the day,……..meh.
Overuse leads to abuse!

Yeah that’s true. Now that it’s been retintroduced, it’s never going to have the same big reveal like this episode did.

It would garner such a reaction only from the tiny segment of the movie audience intimately familiar with COTEOF. That’s far smaller in fact than the percentage of people who are familiar enough with Trek in general to follow a movie.

Well someone should’ve told them that when the “I am Khan” moment happened in STID. ;)

But that moment is not meant to be as big as critics of the movie think it was meant to be. The “twist” is that John Harris(on) is not who he is, but he is something else/”better”. That he is Khan is not meant as a shock. It is not played as one, and the casual audience would have no idea.

It was big enough! They even keyed in the WOK music for that scene.

And that was the problem, the casual audience HAD no idea what any of it meant. A few minutes of exposition but it still completely missed the boat on why Khan is a big deal. A flashback would’ve been nice but that probably would’ve been complicated given everything.

Sorry but I think they did intend the Khan reveal to be a huge deal. The way Benedict read the line… Stretched out like that… No. They were hoping the audience would gasp at it but no one I believe did.

So the guardian being only seen and used two times on screen in its history is overused?

you know what’s overused? Fans attempting to bring Kirk back to life in the prime timeline with poor ideas.

>the Guardian was introduced (to save the day),
Then It is called a deus ex machina, the cheap way out, to resolve a conflict. greeks did it.
here like in tos it is introduced along the first or second act as a means first, not as the solution.

Unfortunately, that is the current state of Star Trek.

There is a term for what you describe, HB: Deus ex Machina. Its a tool poor writers use, basically pulling a character or device not mentioned previously in the story out of nowhere at the climax to save the day and wrap up the plot. That IMHO would be the WORST way to use the GoF.

This I feel was a mistake. They have just shown the Guardian now actively gets involved in universal affairs. That was not the way it was before. Why can’t the guardian just send Discovery back? Why did it say Burnham is “where she belongs”? How does it know that? Is it a God? This just feels like a giant can of worms they just opened and probably will NEVER return to. They will just forget the Guardian is even there. (sigh)

*sigh*

Ah, Harry. I wish you could have experienced the same fannish joy I felt, but alas it wasn’t to be.
Perhaps one day, they will give you *exactly* what you want.

Ah, gingerly. What I want is for them to kill off the boring “save the universe” Michael Burnham character. The focus on her ruins the entire series. Weak writing.

Harry… I think bringing in the Guardian was monumentally lazy. It was done for no reason than to have a little fan service. There was no other reason to introduce it. Honestly it feels like the writers for this show were hired for reasons other than how good they are. Maybe someone owed them a favor or something… I don’t know. But they really should not be writing Star Trek.

But a “Kirk Saves The Universe Again” character is okay?

I already knew nobody else on this thread would have thought of this, but what about never having used the Guardian on ST ever again? You say City is one of the best ST adventures ever (I don’t agree)? Money where your mouth is. Let it remain the Guardian’s only appearance ever on ST. We’re not writing fan fiction (except apparently we are).

If I were Kurtzman I wouldn’t touch it. I would consider it hubris. Why set yourself up for comparison? Why would you do that to yourself.

The cigar-smoking dude could’ve just been Kurtzman Trek’s unofficial version of the Guardian, no relation established or implied. Too late now. Every time I see something fresh on these shows they figure out a way to make it familiar and lame.

Sam, I’ve said week they never should touch the Guardian ever again. It just opens up a huge can of worms. Of course, these writers and producers open up cans of worms all the time and then just ignore it. It’s their M.O.

Really? Guardian of Forever? That thing that looks like a half done donut? I would have rather seen Q back.

I don’t know why I expected anything different… Overall it was a let down. I’m disappointed that Carl was actually the Guardian of Forever. If he’s THE Guardian, they changed the personality and I’m not thrilled with that. Carl should have been his own character. I’m also disappointed that Lorca didn’t show up after the constant name-dropping. I really hope they address what happened in the MU though. It’s as simple as revealing if the trip into the MU was real or not. The recorded three months seems to imply it was real, but that introduces continuity problems. If they want to say it was a tangent timeline, that’s still a continuity problem because that’s not how the Guardian works. And then there was an interesting part about how the Guardian was used in the temporal wars, but of course they don’t get into that. I also expected a bit of a teaser at the end, showing briefly where and when Georgiou ended up, but nope… we got an unnecessary scene full of melodrama and Michael crying again. I guess it just wouldn’t be Discovery otherwise…

There might have been a good scene there, with Georgiou leaving, but it felt hollow like most of the character stuff. They should have spent more time actually showing their friendship. I feel like Georgiou was there briefly (note that she wasn’t with them for most of season 2) and just made snarky remarks, while most of the Burnham/Georgiou stuff was a sad longing for their counterparts. And they never really got into that. Instead they wrap it up like they had been best of pals for these 3 seasons. So while that scene was setup as a tear-jerker, I felt nothing except puzzled as to how this friendship even formed.

I was at least glad to have Reno back, if only for a moment. But the off-hand remark on polaric energy had me nerd-raging. Let’s assume they’re using this as a power source now…. And it’s stable. Okay. This was a power source that had wiped out a whole planet in VOY, and has subspace effects. Seems powerful, and potentially ideal for warp drive or maybe even slipstream. SO WHY IS DILITHIUM NEEDED?? And no, I don’t buy the excuse that dilithium is some magical mediator for every type of energy reaction. I hope this is elaborated on, but I expect it was more of a throwaway line, which is really frustrating.

Also, they need to figure out what’s going on with Booker. I’m still having trouble really getting who he is as a person, and though he likes to save the space whales, I’m still having trouble buying that he wants to join the crew. Right now, he seems like an awkward tagalong, and though I made the assumption from the beginning that we’d see him in a uniform by the end of the season, I’m just not thrilled with the idea of it. If he’s actually trying to join the crew (and Starfleet?), I wish they’d show it. Shoe-horning him in there to offer a deus ex machina, and adding some throwaway lines like ‘I’ve been studying the manual’ just don’t cut it for me. If this is going to be his thing now, I wish they’d give him some development.

I just don’t understand how this show can spend so much time adding up to so almost nothing. They speed through the important parts (character and story development) and I’m left wondering what the hell I just watched that whole time. The season is almost over and I feel like it just started.

Lorca will never show up again because he’s on the outs with the producers, as they’ve hinted in several interviews. That’s why one of the characters even commented “I don’t think we’ll ever see him again.” That was a message to the fans.

Can you please cite or link to some interviews where it is clear that Issacs and the Trek producers are on “the outs”? In recent interviews Issacs seems very jovial about Trek and muses about returning.

For the record, I hate the character of Lorca and hope that he never does return, but I have not seen any evidence of what you are asserting about the actor and the producers fighting.

Last edited 6 months ago by Just Another Salt Vampire

“Lorca will never show up again because he’s on the outs with the producers”

That really would surprise me if true since Isaacs is a frontman of the same cult!

Very good points made here. They set that goodbye up like they had formed a bond but we never saw any kind of bond forming whatsoever. I would think the crew would be more like “Thank God that horrible person isn’t around anymore.” That is how she had been presented for the entire season.

And yes… The season does feel like it just started. Not much has happened since the opening 3 episodes. The main stuff has been off screen stuff.

I do need to make a very simple observation to what you, and so many others are stating: Everyone, including me, wants more character development. The issue is that too many want it right now. Star Trek fans seriously need to learn patience. There is so much going on, so many different ideas being discussed. There’s absolutely no way to please everyone to the extent that the fans want. This is strictly my opinion as one who watched the original and not the re-broadcast later. Yes, I’m a bit older and was enthralled with Star Trek as a mere 3yo on September 8th, 1966. I understand that you will disagree with me and that’s ok. I expect it.

You having watched the original Star Trek on it’s first run has absolutely nothing to do with my comment, this thread, or anything really.

And you’ve actually pinpointed what the problem is. There’s “so much going on”, that they can’t squeeze in some character development for many of the characters. The result is, a small handful of reasonably fleshed-out main characters, some people pretending to be main characters, and a bunch of set pieces that look like characters. If they sacrificed some of the plot points, they’d not only have a tighter story and more cohesive plot, but they’d also have some time to create more developed characters, which would in-turn add more credibility and weight to the character-oriented aspects of the plot. Sounds like a win win win, no?

My wanting more character development has zero to do with impatience. We’re almost done with the third season, and we know next to nothing about most of the bridge crew, even though they keep showing up in many scenes. That’s just bad plotting and writing, not me being a bad fan.

Just jumping in here… If it is difficult to recall anyone beyond the top 3-5 characters after 36 episodes then you are doing something VERY wrong. You ask for patience. How patient do we need to be? Every other Trek show we knew who the ancillary characters were by the end of their first season. In those days some 25+ episodes. Not so on STD.

I have wondered about the whole needing dilithium issue, but I have learned not to overanalyze anything anymore in what passes for Star Trek now. Dilithium is used as a control medium for matter/antimatter reactions. There are other power sources that would work for warp (artificial singularity, for example). And if they had, say, programmable matter, they could simulate the effects of dilithium. Hmmm.

I’m just floored that after some 900 years they are STILL reliant on dilithium. It’s as if we were still riding horses to get around because no one thought of a way to make a horseless carriage go.

“Pwning?”

Come on, guys. This isn’t Bleeding Cool or Ain’t It Cool News. You guys are actually a respectable website worth reading.

Last edited 6 months ago by His Name Is Rios

I have to admit I haven’t the faintest idea what that means or where it came from…

means “to own” or to be dominated by an opponent or situation.”

It comes from video gaming culture. ;)

Dude, it’s Star Trek news, not the Wall Street Journal. I appreciated the reference and was somewhat tickled.

Pretty good overall, but not great. I cheered and clapped when that voice came on and Carl revealed finally himself as the Guardian of Forever!!!

Best moment of the season so far (and there have been a lot of great moments in general). And I really loved how they explained the fact the portal had to go into ‘hiding’ once the Temporal Wars started. And it finally patched up a HUGE plot hole that this thing just sat idly by on a dead planet for centuries but no one ever uses it to their advantage? The Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and the other big A-holes never found out about it and tried to use it to gain a big advantage in the Alpha Quadrant? But now we know it can transport itself to other places and even shield itself when it really needs to. But man, that entire event sounded like a rough time for the Federation.

And I been thinking how we had a lot of references to multiple shows in this season alone from Enterprise to Voyager to even Picard but not one strictly from TOS. Well now we got it! ;)

The MU scenes were really fun again though but it really sucks there was no Lorca. You bring up his name 50 times but ended up being a no show. Set up some major disappointment. But the rest of the cast was fun. I did like the moments between Georgiou and Burnham. No matter what you do in that universe, you can always expect to get double crossed at some point lol.

I love the fact we don’t have a clue where they sent Georgiou in the end either. Leaves things WIDE open for the Section 31 show! She could end up in the 24th century or maybe even later than that. We know the two universes are basically still close enough through the 27th century so it gives them a lot of space to roam in.

All in all a strong two parter IMO. Not amazing, but good IMO sending Space Hitler off (finally!). On and I liked the fact everyone was predicting Georgiou was going to go back to the past via the Discovery and everyone couldn’t be more wrong lol. I been saying this all season, but the writers have been doing a great job with all the crazy twists so far.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

“Vicar” defined as “substitute.”

Does that call sign tell us that Prime Universe Lorca was in that Terran Universe?

Indeed. Some fans are getting into final conclusions that Lorca will not show up. I think he will. Very likely Prime Lorca will have an interesting story to tell, he may actually will be the key to build their Federation.

Ok but how??? They are 900 years away from the time he was last seen. Obviously they have to pull off some crazy time travel/interdimensional shenanigans to make it happen (or what they just did in the last episode ;)). This would’ve been the best time to show him again.

I know it’s Star Trek, they pull off pretty convoluted plot devices before like being stuck in transporter buffers for 70 years or the nexus; but this would be a crazier jump than anything done in the past.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

It also begs the question if Georgiou would try to change the future and prevent the Burn, despite not having the full picture. It’s one of those things which explains why the shows never let time travelers from the future stick around very long.

I think she CAUSES the burn.

Thought about that too. Maybe she has a last message for everyone on the Kelpian ship either way.

I thought it was obvious that Burnham causes the Burn. (Maybe too obvious).

I was actually making a bit of a joke but given Secret Hideout they very well might do it.

I still don’t understand all of this love and respect for Empress Georgiou, who let’s face it, was a genocidal dictator. They keep acting around Empress Georgiou like she’s the original Captain Georgiou. She never was, and I’m not convinced she was deserving of such reverence and forgiveness by the Discovery crew.

Yeah that scene where they were all honoring her at the end just felt bizarre IMO. Sure I know some people liked her but you would think she was a member of the crew who was part of all their lives or something. She never tried to even relate to them. And she was still responsible for so many deaths and suffering. It really bothered not ONCE during her entire run of the show anyone ever stood up to her or confronted her about it. It would’ve been nice to see somebody just objecting to her having so much free reign on the ship in general, but it is what it is I guess.

I’m just happy she’s gone now. 2020 is starting to look up lately. ;)

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Same, she is just an evil character. Someone who murders people because she can. At least Georgiou is gone and 2020 is getting better like you said.

When was the last time she killed someone without justification?

Since when does that matter for anything? If post-war Hitler had really retired to Argentinia or Neuschwabenland or the dark side of the Moon, no more Jew-gassing (swear!), everything would have been fine and dandy?

People’s innate understanding of justice – not just the writers, but also a huge junk of the audience – really disturbs me!

Tell me why Hitler is worst than Stalin, Cezar, Dzingis, Kubilay, First Emperor, whole Rome? Yes, reaction of crew is stupid, but you learn and worship bandits like Georgiou in your history, Even Lincoln was bad but you made him saint. She can’t be judge in MU cos in MU she is moral. In PU she do nothing bad and all the time ppl told her that this is bad, other is bad, don’t do it. She only talking in PU and killing bad guys.

These are supposed to be somewhat enlightened characters who have learned something (anything?) from history and also have learned that appeasement will often become a form of surrender. Just because we’re still a bunch of savages (one party seemingly moreso than the other) doesn’t mean we will always be that way, so the idea that the DSC crew would be wearing such genocidal blinders is unforgivable, if you buy into the basic STAR TREK premise at all. It’s like if John Gill hadn’t died at the end of PATTERNS OF FORCE and the ep ended with Kirk having a cheerful drink with him aboardship talking about his Academy days, with the pair eyeing Spock and making some teasing ‘low forehead’ remark.

For context: The DS9 where they finally get Eddington to surrender is one of my faves, but I NEVER rewatch the tag scene with Dax where she basically approves of Sisko’s planetary rampage. It’s still among the most revolting moments in TREK history for me.

kmart, it’s interesting you mention appeasement: “going full Chamberlain” was one of my thoughts regarding both the writers and many posters’ dealing with Space Hitler’s miraculous redemption!

I have the same problem with For the Uniform: poisoning the planet for his personal vendetta damaged the Sisko character for me in ways it made him less credible especially in the later war. It made him more than criminal, a hypocrite. How could he credibly stand up to Section 31 or the attempted genocide against the founders if he destroyed a planet himself?

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

My wife has been telling me more often recently that I have invested too much of my time thinking about TREK and I should just give it up entirely cold-turkey, and I told her I didn’t think it was possible for me to do so, that including TREK in my thoughts and approach to life was ingrained at this point. I’m actually going to try it for her pretty soon, so obviously that will mean stopping the occasional flurry of posts, but if/when that happenes, keep in mind that I will miss this kind of interaction with some of the posters here.

That is true. In the MU she is moral. That is something the writers have completely ignored on this show. The only place for her is the MU. To keep her on this side is a disservice to her character and the entire show.

Not quite. The episode actually showed that Georgiou was already a reformist prior her encounter with the prime timeline. This was Mirror Burnham’s motivation for teaming up with Lorca to overthrow her and that plot was initiated prior to the point in the timeline that Carl returned her to. It’s also something that’s been seeded in the tie-in Media as well. I know it’s not exactly canon but there was a comic sequel to the MU episodes in season one that also alluded to this and that was written by Kirsten Beyer suggesting this has been in their thinking all along for the character. Therefore by MU stands she could actually be considered immoral so maybe living within the grey areas with Section 31 is exactly where she belongs.

That does not compute. In the MU the only motivation for an overthrow is power. Which is considered fair motivation in that society. Further, if Georgeau was truly a bit of a reformer in the MU then on this side Prime Georgeau would certainly not be the the shining pillar of leadership, principles and friendship she has been made out to be. She herself would lean to being power mad. Hence, the MIRROR part of the MU. Since prime Georgeau was a mother figure and fantastic role model for Burnham it is logical to conclude her MU counterpart would be the exact opposite.

Also, in the episode the scenario that Space Pol Pot was in was not a real situation. It was more like a holodeck simulation. Nothing that happened in the MU in these episodes can be taken as true to the goings on of the in universe true MU. It was entirely fictional in the character’s mind.

We don’t know that it was a simulation, I’m paraphrasing here but Carl said that somewhere in another time or reality you’re dying on the floor which kind of implies it did happen. In any case we it was clear that the writers intent was to make the character more sympathetic to the audience by showing that she was already trying to effect change and that is something that they’ve been seeding in the tie-inmedia for sometime.

We don’t know it was real. There is more evidence to suggest it was a simulation than not. The “another time” line very well could be another tangent of the time line. With every decision we make an another time line is created. He could pretty much say that about anyone and it would be true.

It was clear the intent was to try and “redeem” Georgeau before the season even started. Without even seeing any episodes. It was that obvious. Funny thing is there we little evidence of it until the last episode. But even before the attempt at redemption it was a fools errand because she came from the MU. To her, redemption here is a fall from grace to her values. There can be no redemption. If there was, it means that prime Georgeau was meant to fall in our eyes. Be redeemed in the eyes of the MU had she not “died”. And honestly, if they wanted to they could easily bring her back.

And yet…we have Wehrner von Braun leading the US space program. And we have people like Yasir Arafat, F.W. de Klerk, and Gerry Adams, former terrorists all. (Yitzhak Rabin famously said that you make peace with your enemies, not your friends.) We have Nikita Khrushchev, who (though no democrat) surprised the world with de-Stalinization, and Deng Xiaoping, who did something similar. We have Gorbachev, whose early statecraft aimed to reform the Soviet system, not to deconstruct it.

I think this episode shows us a lot about how political leaders with chequered pasts this can evolve. It’s a very Christian theme of acknowledgment of sins and redemption, and also a very Roddenberrian theme of optimism.

This

I’d be all for that kind of story, but each of the historical examples you’ve listed pale in comparison to the crimes of Georgiou (who one should imagine has committed atrocities at least 100x Hitler/30x Stalin & Mao). In addition, for those examples, you point to how they were needed to make progress towards peace. Was Georgiou really needed? What use did she serve beyond suggesting a genocide on Qo’nos or walking around Discovery with all that sass!

No, she’s an awful character written by terrible charlatan showrunners/writers. Dreadful.

No, it’s just Vaderization, a la RETURN OF THE JEDI. It’s taking kiddie mythology and bastardizing it for reuse. It’s also a terrible impression to give people, one that excuses brutalizations. This hangup western culture has on forgiveness is not enlightenment, it is just a way for those immune to ethics and conscience to further exploit the system while knowing there will be a ‘get out of jail free’ card when they push the right buttons.

There is no getting even with violent felons because the damage they do has been done; but you could at least help other people by harvesting the organs. Does that sound monstrous? If so, put THAT in context. You’re only harming those who have, without cause, done harm to others. You’re not starting any cycle of violence, and in fact, you’re doing something to end that cycle, because you’re taking an engine of violence out of the equation, while getting value for the dregs.

REMO WILLIAMS is a flawed movie, but the idea of an 11th commandment, ‘thou shalt not get away with it,’ is, as Kor would say, ‘Glorious!’

“This hangup western culture has on forgiveness is not enlightenment, it is just a way for those immune to ethics and conscience to further exploit the system while knowing there will be a ‘get out of jail free’ card when they push the right buttons.’

Thank you! That’s it! Above all it is a moral hazard, a broken window effect that is contributing to the Downfall of the West. This is not the culture that brought humanity on a new trajectory after thousands of years of subsistence farming and the many serving the few. It was taking responsibility, it was “What can I do for my country”, not “What can my country do for me”!

All valid points. If Georgeau had been of this prime U. But she wasn’t. She was from the MU. Where everything she did was perfectly normal. Was within social parameters. And completely expected by EVERYONE.

The dumb part is her changing her entire DNA.

Agreed. Well said.

You still use stuff from nazi scientist, they get immunity from alliances. Georgiou is not worse than Klingons, Romulans, Kardashians and old Vulcans with crimes they did as members of Imperium even in time of Picard. But Federation make friendship with them. Kelpians – don’t you remember that they are a predators who almost kill whole population? But now they are poor and you like them and feel sad for them?
After collapse of Terrans theirs slavers become bad same as them.

Last edited 6 months ago by Res

My feelings exactly. She was a brutal dictator who killed on whims. But then she sees others exhibit a bit of humanity, a teeny tiny bit may have rubbed off on her so she is suddenly absolved of all past crimes?

Sorry… No. It’s why Darth Vader had to die. He can be absolved for himself but had he lived he most certainly would have had to be tried for his crimes against the Republic. And the fact that his son believed in him wouldn’t get him off the hook.

Kirk was the same way.

They wasted the last two seasons having her be a cruel, unlikeable, one dimensional character, when her arc could’ve been one of realizing the error of her ways and a search for redemption. Somehow we’re supposed to buy that such an arc did happen with this episode but until now we never saw her question her past life. So her redemption is unearned and ultimately meaningless, since she’ll probably be back to her old ways once she returns to Section 31.

Completely agreed. As the review and others have pointed out, the writers seem to be imprinting their adoration for Yeoh onto Georgiou without giving her enough or the right material to justify these episodes. She’s so talented, but it’s only in this two parter that they’ve really given her material that makes proper use of her. It’s been a waste of an artist when you can clearly see the arc she was supposed to have.

I know the show has had a tumultuous BTS upheaval with so many showrunner changes, but there’s no excuse IMO or so many characters to be lacking in proper development. The seasons are long enough and the central cast is small enough to justify that opinion I think, despite it being made from the comfort of an armchair. Michael is a haphazard mess at times, Georgiou was squandered, Culber and Stammets are kinda one-note, Adira has potential but is kinda coming across as Ezri Crusher right now (and they keep threatening to bring Gray back which I’m dreading), the rest of the bridge crew… please. Saru, Book and Tilly are all we’ve got IMO unless they convince Tig Notaro to join full time.

But we knew she would get at least started on a redemption. At least from our point of view. From her perspective it would be a fall from grace. A move against her very nature and her culture. Kinda hard to buy, I think.

I think the problem is that they did not mentioned Prime Phillipa. A comparison between the two was needed, when they were all together talking about her.

Prime Phillipa was boring. Hot but Boring.

Yes, great point. Michael literally hangs on to her because of her relationship with PU Georgiou. When she said that line, ‘you are my Philippa’, I really couldn’t buy it. Yes she did care for her but she couldn’t truly trust her either. No one could and why those scenes just ring a bit hollow to me.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

The removal of a bad character from a bad show doesn’t mean 2020 is getting better. I don’t see how. Many are saying this pandemic is going to be around for another year even with the vaccine. I don’t see people getting their businesses back anytime soon. Things actually look awfully grim now.

Well, I dunno. She defied Section 31/Leland/Control to get the Disco crew what they needed (I don’t remember what, but whatever that episode’s McGuffin was). Though her original Qo’noS plan was to dust the planet, she helped with ending the war to some extent. She saved Saru and Tilly in the Space Cantina with the husband from Medium. She killed Leland. Gave Burnham clues to find Spock, maybe? Saved L’Rell, Tyler and their kid…

I mean, yeah, she was a (expletive deleted) interpersonally, but she earned her keep. Kinda like Quark in DS9 or Q. Her character just never achieved that “love to hate her” quality that Quark and Q earned. She wasn’t delightful, either through writing or performance. I see where they were going, but they just missed the mark somehow.

The whole Space Hitler thing… I mean, that was the only reality those people knew since at least 2063. She was probably the mirror equivalent of Nelson Mandela. Because mass genocide is what makes you respectable in (literal) backwards-land. She didn’t know there was a different, better way until she had some quality Prime-time. Cultural relativism has always been a hallmark of the Federation. Kor, Koloth and Kang did some pretty wretched crap too, but by all accounts they’re pretty highly respected.

As for free reign on the ship, she was a duly sworn-in member of Section 31. They don’t have to like it, but it’s in the Charter. She just wasn’t as voqal about it as Tyler. See what I did there? Voqal?

I think the writers conceive of this from a different philosophical bent. Carl’s test is kind of like the Good Place / Bad Place test of Mike Schur’s “The Good Place” aimed at in the end. Are you evil and unredeemable because that’s what you are to the core? Or is it a function of the environment? Mirror Georgiou was born into a universe in which humans (Terrans) only knew cruelty, and the only way you can survive is to kill your enemies and consolidate power. Prime Burnham pulled her out of that universe and for a time, she existed in a universe where the circumstances were different, and the choices she made no longer had the same motivating justifications. Georgiou could’ve been just as murderous and evil in the Prime universe but she wasn’t. She was rude and insulting, but she did help Starfleet and the crew of the Discovery, and she was still motivated by a maternalistic love for Michael.

What the writers were getting at (which I grant, based on the limited outings of Georgiou to action sequences and insult lines, didn’t fully paint out the path) with Carl’s test, was that fundamentally, Georgiou was not an evil person. She did not revel in wanton killings, and was revolted by the things that were considered status quo in the universe. Believing that she was permanently in her own universe she tried to chart a different path for her empire, even though she knew it was futile. In some regards, this sort of absolution is necessary if she is to become the protagonist of her own Star Trek show.

She’s awesome. I would vote for her.

She wasn’t. Even when they tried to “soften” her up it felt wrong for the character. It would be wrong of ANY MU character.

The writers and producers want Georgeau to be liked. I’m afraid the only way to do that is to say that the prime version never died and have the Guardian portal her to the future because “that is where she belongs”.

A Christmas Carol, Terran-style. Genocidal psychopath Emporer Scrooge is converted and all better now. Of course, we also get the touching fellowship toast at the end where everyone forgets about all the blood that dripped from Space Hitler’s actions. The Ghost of Christmas Prime, Angel Michael Burnham has once again saved the universe. It seems the cast and the writers have trouble separating the character from the actor. Sure, Yeoh is a talent, but this character and her actions were reprehensible and certainly should never have been celebrated in the least. Her little trip to mirror land resulted in more Murder Trek, look at all the people she had Burnham murder. And the atrocity of eating a sentient species was written off because of health concerns? Let’s not forget her other specialty: GENOCIDE! It was like watching allied soldiers in WWII drinking a toast to that misguided Hitler guy.

As many of us correctly predicted, it was a re-imagined Guardian of Forever. All conveniently wrapped-up to get Georgiou transported to the sound stage where the Section 31 show will be produced.

Of course, there are more tears, violence, and Murder Trek along with that sappy “Last of the Mohicans” music. And how about Budget Idris Elba finding that handy Emerald Acme/Amazon Alexa device to enable they/them and the other whiz kid engineers with a way to dig deeper towards the mystery ship?

It really is hard to suspend disbelief with Star Trek Discovery. I find myself watching it out of curiosity more than the anticipation of being entertained.

Last edited 6 months ago by S. Finnegan

It seems the cast and the writers have trouble separating the character from the actor.

I believe Anthony mentioned something like this in the review. It’s been a consistent problem, and it’s a really weird thing to see. It legitimately seems like they think because they’ve bonded as cast and crew on the production, that somehow this means the characters have bonded in the same way. That’s why when I see the characters hugging and crying all over each other and saying they’re a family, I’m like.. ‘did I miss several seasons of character development??’

Yep. This was a problem TNG had as well. The cast reportedly got along famously. Yet none of that translated into the show. The characters felt far more like colleagues than anything else. This cast supposedly get along off set. But that comradery is not appearing in their characters. Is it supposed to?

Lol girl “budget Idris Elba” is the racist content nobody here needs. Bye.

I didn’t really care about anything that guy had to say, but I seriously don’t get how him/her/whatever calling that actor a ‘budget Idris Elba’ is racist……..? Please explain

But Chris, it makes Jacob feel like he’s “bashed the fash” and made the world a better place by smearing a stranger.

I got called a Homophobe yesterday for not loving Mayor Pete as Transportation Secretary, so there is that.

Sadly, that is the world we are living in today. March in step with us or you are a rac*st homoph*be.

In reality Jacob has only shown that he can’t handle opinions that differ from his own.

And that is how it should be, agree to disagree and do it agreeably.

Thought police muting posters with false accusations is the content nobody needs. Bye.

No, from my point of view, it is offensive, as it stereotypes both the character and the actor.

Since when is budget a comment on skin color? It is a comment on his perceived acting chops, which is a matter of view I guess (his role in Beyond was doomed by the writing and the tons of rubber already)..

It’s also a tired thing to call out when most posters (and professional reviews even) ignore the elephant of the room, which is the (non-racial) white washing of Space Hitler in an eulogy scene that amounts to holocaust denial! (We call it bad-assery now) But I guess for her its ok because she is “of color” ;)

Bottom line: it smacks of hypocrisy, as so often regarding this topic nowadays.

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

You are free to disagree all you wish, but I wasn’t being racist or offensive. You can believe whatever you want.

Well stated. Amazing how those who claim to be tolerant are actually the most intolerant.

That’s been proven in surveys actually. The side of the heartbleeders is much more likely to cut off friends with opposing political views than the other way round.

To her defense, TG47 is not one of the people who want to mute opposing views or posters, though!

I’ve been noticing that for decades now.

Isn’t it just snark?

BINGO! I freely admit to being snarky! Snark is an equal-opportunity attribute that transcends race, gender, identity, and whatever category you can consider. Snark is snark.

Well I personally approve. I’m East Coast and sarcastic to the end.

Jacob, I wasn’t being racist at all. That was not my intention. I made that comparison more on the actor also having a British accent similar to Elba’s more than the fact they are both black. I don’t judge people on their skin color. I realize that because you disagree with my opinions regarding the episode you feel that you need to diminish my opinion by making an implied accusation that I am a racist. You are incorrect, I am not. You see to believe you occupy moral high ground when in reality it appears that you are the one being intolerant. Disagree with me all you desire, but don’t accusing me of the vile behavior of being racist. It is insulting and untrue.

“I find myself watching it out of curiosity more than the anticipation of being entertained.”

It’s more the curiosity of watching a slomo train wreck unfold! I do regret wasting time even watching this arguably shortest show of the season (and I did not watch 3 episodes this season nor ever plan to watch them – I just thought they couldn’t screw up this conclusion so badly)

If this is a Christmas Carol, last time I checked Scrooge wasn’t guilty of committing multiple holocausts! But the writers once again reveal which ideological landscape they inhabit: “it doesn’t matter that she failed. She tried.” Forget the past folks, the present matters! In a way we should be glad these people are writing inconsequential Hollywood drivel and not running for public office ;)

Trusting Discovery writers not to screw up is like trusting Mirror Burn ’em not to betray us. And that’s really regrettable.

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

Ech… Politics did worst things in real than this fictional Georgiou. Your alliances betrayed eastern Europe and sold it to big bandit Stalin. Japanese murdered 3000000 Chinese but you still like them and samurais, right? Do you play in Valhalla? But you know that this is worship to murders and terrors for civilians of Europe?
She did same what did a lot of kings in your history and now goverments for lust of power and sources. Think – in your universum somebody like Hitler never exist. And one day you take him from alternative world. Tell me, you have right to kill him than? Or I read alternative novel where in alternative world Jews are bad and treat others nation very bad (honestly they in history were bad for others nations, it is not truth that Semici always were only victims). When you take from other world that bad Jew you should like him or punish him?

How many entire planets and races have any actual historical figure eliminated, murdered, etc? Your argument is weak as the scale you use is uneven. So you are defending the feel good about Space Hitler with the argument that in real life we have historical evil? Nice try, go and watch the “Springtime for Hitler” musical number from Mel Brooks’ “The Producers”, that was what I was thinking both during Space Hitler’s Cirque du Soleil scenes and the “fellowship” toast at the end of the second episode. It was offensive and ridiculous at the same time.

Hear hear!

 I find myself watching it out of curiosity more than the anticipation of being entertained.”

Very good point. I find myself watching only because I’m a Trek fan at this point. And there is a morbid curiosity about how much further the show can sink. Every time I think they hit bottom they manage to go a little lower.

I will watch the episode soon after I’m done with my economics exam. Empress Georgiou is an evil dictator but everyone wants her dead. The Section 31 show sounds very exciting now!

The big question is when will the Section 31 show be set? I was never a big fan of Ash Tyler, so if the producers decide to put the show in another era, I’m fine with that.

She is said to go back in time when both universes were the same. That would mean before first contact in 2063, wouldn’t it? Since we know that S31 already existed in ENT, I would expect that she becomes the creator of S31. (or “will have had had become” or whatever “back to the future” tense you need to describe an action taking place in past of the future which will be altered ;-) )
I predicted that this episode could be a back-door-pilot of the S31 show, ending with a cliff-hanger which will be solved in the first episode of S31. But I REALLY expected it would end with the empress landing on the other side and indicating the time periode. Or at least giving a hint. Instead we got that pathetic goodbye-scene on the Disco. That was too much. They could have added an extra scene which shows the arrival of Giorgiou. Maybe the writers aren’t yet sure or undecisive.

I think the S31 show will be officially announced very soon. At least the speculation should start now.
My prediction: The S31 show is set around 2050 or between 2063 (first contact) and 2150 (ENT).

I would much prefer if they set it sometime around Star Trek Picard. That way you could have appearances from Bashir. Maybe he decides to resurrect Section 31 and brings in Garek to help out. I could see Garek getting on very well with Georgiou. It’s probably easier production wise to set the Section 31 show around the same time period as either Picard or Strange New Worlds. It cuts down on budget by allowing the reuse of some sets, props and costumes.

My hope is the TNG era. Section 31 feels like it belongs there. Always felt out of place when it was brought back on Enterprise.

But what if Section 31 did always consist of time travelling agents? That would be a good explanation why guys like Sloan appeared and disappeared out on nothing. So many possibilities. Gary Seven could have been from section 31. Maybe they were a counterpart of Dulmer and Lucsly or the Relativity. The future guy could be from section 31. Therefore Section 31 could cover many eras and be part of the temporal war.
We have seen space ships, a space station, a ship on the other side of the galaxy, two prequels as tv shows. Therefore a whole tv show dealing with time travel would be an interesting choice.

Last edited 6 months ago by DaveCGN

If that is the case then they weren’t using the tools at their disposal very well at all. Sloan did not see the Klingon betrayal of their deal ahead of time as he should have had he had the ability you suggest. In fact, he seemed to be genuinely surprised he got duped.

And once again, this episode proves why it’s just much more fun when your stories are going forward and not backwards. It’s no way we could’ve gotten a Guardian of Forever shout out if DIS was still back in the 23rd century because it hasn’t happened on TOS yet. Or if they tried, people would’ve been yelling about it. That or go to the other option, the good old ‘classified’ line like this show does….a lot. ;)

But now, they can literally just do whatever the hell they want. It’s a lot of fun seeing literally every show and/or movie referenced in some way. With the exception of Lower Decks, every single show so far has been referenced including Picard. They even found a way to bring in the Kelvin universe last episode. But outside of the Temporal war calamity and the Romulan/Vulcan reunification that’s all it’s mostly been, references, and that’s fine. It just more fun when you don’t have to hold back like clearly DIS was trying to do the first two seasons (with very mixed results). You want to shove the GOF in there, have at it!! Throw in a new Voyager 800 years later, go for it. Mention that the empire in the MU failed eons ago, now is a good time as ever.

Now Q, the Borg, Ferengi, Romulans and on and on can just show up whenever they want and no one has to bend over backwards explaining how.

This show is now the most connected show in the franchise oddly being so far ahead of everything else and it can cover literally everything before it. But because it’s so far away, it doesn’t have to acknowledge any of it either and just do its own thing, but I’m happy it’s doing both.

For people like me whose been to wanting see a more advanced Trek show since 2001, I’m in heaven! Nothing is off limits anymore. That’s just way more fun instead of ‘filling in’ back story to stuff we already know which most prequels do a lot of. I really don’t feel the need to have a two part episode to know how the Klingons got cloaking technology or what happened to Khan’s crew after they settled on Ceti Alpha Five 40 years after the fact. I just can’t begin to care.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Goddamn, Tiger. It’s like every one of your points that brings you joy just makes my skin crawl. Haha! I must live in the Mirror Universe….!

LOL that’s pretty funny. But to me, I just think it works out MUCH better when you have an open canvas and you can draw from whatever you want WITHOUT worrying if it fits in with your side of the story. End of the day that’s all we’re talking about.

All the things (besides the bad writing ;)) people had issues with in Discovery like the ‘visual canon’, showing things early like the MU, etc has all been pretty moot now. And that’s a good thing. But no one will ever excuse the look of those Klingons in any century. ;)

It would be moot. If they changed out of their ancient uniforms and into ones appropriate for their era. They redid the ship. That removes that mistake. But the uniforms!

True that. ;)

I’m hoping by the finale they switch to the new uniforms to symbolize they are officially part of this era.

OF COURSE I also thought by the season two finale they would change into the TOS uniforms we saw Pike in…didn’t quite happen. ;D

Frankly, Tiger, I’m not watching Trek for “shout-outs”. This is the bottom line for Trek now apparently. But for me the bad, like that travesty of a mourning scene for Space Hitler (they didn’t have to do this, so it shows their degree of delusion about that “delicious” character), still far outweighs the improvements, in this two parter and this season.

Can’t say next week’s preview fills me with any confidence the Burn “mystery” won’t be resolved in the most anticlimactic and simplistic manner possible either…

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

I’m not excusing the scene with them mourning Space Hitler and called it out!

And I don’t mean ‘shout outs’ I mean the fact that can just include canon in a more digestible way because they are so far everything we know. They don’t have to worry about trying to cram in things anymore LIKE the Mirror Universe for example. We knew in season one it was out of canon, but you either excuse it or you didn’t. Now, they can not only include this element easily they can add their own canon to it in a way they couldn’t before like the fact the universes have drifted away.

Now you can certainly still think the idea sucks, but it doesn’t contradict with anything. Its 800 years past everything now.

I dont see the Guardian as a negative but it doesn’t improve the rest of it either. Like I predicted before the jump bad writing is just that in any century, and if anything it feels all the more disappointing since you’d think writing a blank slate is so much easier than fitting things into 1960s canon!

As for Space Hitler, it’s all the more baffling they didnt even make any attempt to give her a more gradual arc of character development, went with the Cronenberg angle to brainwash her (as much as I’d hate the real world implications of that msssage) or even retconned her character outright. No! They had her throwing axes at St. Michael and food at Tilly as late as the first half of this two parter, and now these same characters and the Guardian lionize her with “At least she tried (now)” and glowing eulogies (“She was a badass”) .

I bet you a good dollar these actors and writers would never say the same thing about Trump, who hasnt even committed 1% of the evils of Space Hitler ;)

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

We’re on the same page about Georgiou obviously. I thought she was a bad character when she first showed up, that never really changed 3 seasons later. Part of the reason others like this episode because she is finally gone at least. ;)

And yeah, it would’ve came off a little better if they would’ve had her empathize more this season. The stuff with Saru in the PU was good, but we never really saw it on the ship itself. No, she didn’t want to eat him but she still came across that she looked down on him. It would’ve been nice if they just gave her an episode where the ship was in trouble and she had to be the one to save it and finally put some cracks in that hard exterior. To see her realize that the crew was starting to mean something to her. They did things like that with Seven and T’pol and you got to see them grow and accept they were no longer just there out of circumstance but wanted to be there (and of course neither were a mass murdering dictator either). Same thing with Kira in a way as well. But we saw those characters grow into those roles. We NEVER really saw that with Georgiou. She basically stayed the two dimensional Terran who thought she was better than everyone because they came off ‘weak’ to her. Again, we’re in agreement there. But I never included Georgiou as part as why I think the show is better now obviously.

As far as the rest of your post, I just don’t think the show overall is as bad as it was. Still not amazing but MUCH more improved for me. And I will go as far as to say season 3, if nothing else, seems to be the most popular so far as a whole. And it’s probably due to a number of things, the biggest just being free to put its own spin on the galaxy. DIS was really the only show that didn’t have that freedom. Even Enterprise got to do quite a bit of adding canon because it was a century before TOS and all we knew about the 22nd century was the Romulan war and founding of the Federation. But other than not showing particular species (which they still showed anyway) and keeping the tech down, they could basically do what they want. DIS was locked in from day one and they clearly knew that and made the change. A pretty big one lol.

You can tell the writers have a bigger sense of freedom. You couldn’t have a Trill(ish) character like Adira before. You certainly couldn’t have Book.

But I know many here still think it’s pretty bad. I just disagree. I’m enjoying the show way more this season, certainly more than season 1. I like the upside down way things feel now. Things are much more loose sort of like TOS but then other ways more strict like the 24th century in terms of Starfleet itself.

And I just see all the potential the show now has. It can go so many directions from here on out. But yes it doesn’t mean it’s going to be great, but if it has a chance at all, this is the time.

If not, there is always Lower Decks! ;D

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Tiger, FWIW, they STILL have the chance to do all these amazing things on the blank slate that still exists. If anything so far the generic scifi stories and the Emerald Kazon have been too underwhelming. In keeping with the Voyager analogy,they still have the chance to right this wrong by introducing this century’s Borg, for example (I believe they intentionally left out closer looks on Earth and Vulcan to revisit and flash them out later).

But I do believe we have seen enough by now to know that for that to happen in a satisfying fashion, they will have to open themselves to some new writers. Young blood, fresh ideas, be tolerant! ;)

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

Not sure about it being only 1%, there’s no way to calculate the long-term damage of this presidency, or even all the more general horrors he has visited in terms of fleecing and assailing people and smaller companies in the preceding decades. I often think of the Guild folk in DUNE threatening the Emperor with living out his life in a pain amplifier and deciding, yeah, that would almost be enough in this case when it comes to that thing currently at 1600.

kmart, for me intent is an important component in moral judgment (I believe judicially too in most countries). He may be responsible for 300, 500 thousand American fatalities out of sheer neglect and incompetence, but I do not believe he intentionally wanted to kill so many people, especially since many should be his supporters ;) In comparison, Bush did intentionally start a war in Iraq with hundreds of thousands of fatalities (“just’ abroad) and bankrupted the US with that, putting the country on a tractory that arguably only caused Trump. It’s actually classic history, military adventures, incompetence, financial overstretching: the decline of the Roman Empire or the Ming dynasty. So we have much bigger fish even in our own history.

Back to topic, Space Hitler murdered entire civilizations, wiped entire planets with full intent. The writers intentionally set it up this way only to celebrate her more than PRIME Georgiou ever was! It is truly baffling to understand what they are thinking. IF they are thinking!

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

VS,
I lost a huge post with a bunch of stuff about context for intent, citing Kirk in Gerrold’s GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL and how he forced himself to think in terms of empathy when it wasn’t present in himself, to show how a person in command can strive to make the right call when it isn’t inherently within him to do so, but that’s part of why I find this guy inexcusable. And even if he was just crazy, that wouldn’t be an excuse either. (Really wish the thoughts hadn’t been lost, I can’t do them justice again.)

The idea of “brainwashing” her to survive in the Prime U is better than having her change her spots on her own. It actually has other interesting implications. Like what if her original programing shines through from time to time? What if she can learn to access it when needed but has the potential to ruin her? Some interesting mind stuff here they opted out of for the sake of doing something nonsensical and obvious.

Came back too late to edit but here is the ad on…

Regarding your final comment, You are 100% correct except in that he person you named hasn’t committed zero % of Georgeau’s crimes and has in fact (surprisingly) improved upon a great many things.

For top 1% of top 1% maybe.

No. Pretty much for everyone who had a job plus those whose jobs were saved plus those who gained employment. The percentage would be conservatively in the mid to high 90’s.

Are you sure you’re not posting from the MU, or at least a former inhabitant of same? (I know it is supposed to be content not poster, but given the thread, it seems almost reasonable to speculate along these lines, given how out-there, flat-out ridiculous and wholly unsupportable that comment seems, and that’s without looking into the future to see how terrible the results from the court appointments will resonate.)

Sorry kmart. Your comment that only the 1% of 1% were helped was the one that was amazingly ridiculous and unsupportable. The fact is, and this is verifiable, the biggest tax breaks were given to the lower 20% of wage earners. And the court appointments seem to be doing a decent job so far.

It’d be the easiest and most believable in-universe, yeah (that she changed). I meant it is troublesome as to her lack of atonement for her past the need of which is not at all wiped out by a memory wipe, especially since it’s not even her own impetus.

For comparison, if a drug addict commits murders under the influence and later gets forced into rehabilitation and becomes clean of drugs and has no murderous intentions left, does that mean he shouldn’t be punished for his past deeds? Of course not. Because he CHOSE to do drugs, with all potential implications. Because this is about bearing the consequences of one’s actions, self-responsibility.

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

But… We also have the sci-fi fantasy element of the person doing those things comes from a place where such actions are not only perfectly acceptable and expected but considered the moral thing to do. That is the perspective that I think many are missing. So how do you get someone who’s very DNA tells them they need to murder to get ahead to behave in such a backwards way? To abandon all their instinct and all they were taught?

Scorpion and the Frog.

Yes. That scene was unnecessary. It could have been shown at the beginning of the next episode with less pathos. I was really expecting that episode ends with her passing the guardian AND arriving in her new timeline. Would have been a great ending and cliffhanger.

Honestly, I’m expecting the resolution to be terrible and senseless. At this point I think the best they can make this show is “meh” if the last few episodes can improve. Which I wouldn’t bet anything on.

I made the mistake not to read the early reviews beforehand, which I did for every single episode after the season premiere. I thought it’d be nice to be surprised for once given the many possibilities the first part opened. Should’ve known all suprises got to be negative ;)

Sure enough I won’t be watching next week though, especially after seeing in the sneak preview they STILL continue the eulogy travesty scene! Can’t let them ruin Christmas like some Trekkian Scrooges ;)

This is certainly the most exciting thing about the show. I just still have some lingering disappointment that it’s Kurtzman’s people charged with developing that future. Just would have loved to see the next generation of Trek writers come of age under the tutelage of an EP who wrote for the older shows. But hey, they did try with Fuller and he flamed out.

This is not a snarky question. It’s a real one that popped in my head reading your comments. Is the fan service the reason you are liking season 3? It’s fine if it is. If that gives you joy great. I like fan service as much as anyone. But for me if the overall product is weak, fan service feels like they are trying to bail water out of a sinking ship for maybe 3 more minutes of staying afloat.

Sure that’s part of it, but that’s every show. And no, it’s not the main reason, not even close. I been saying this for weeks now, it’s just being in a completely new era with new dynamics and situations (and technology). Take the 23rd and 24th centuries, it’s basically been the same stuff for decades now. We understand how things work in those centuries. We know the major players, how strong the Federation is, etc. It’s changed in a bit in Picard due to the Dominion War and Romulus being taken out, but it’s not a huge difference.

But here, for the first time, everything is just different. Every week (well not counting the last two ;)) we learn something new about this era and just how different it is from where we last left it back in the 24th century. Every week I want to learn more about it. For example, I’m still curious what is going on with the Klingons (and notice we haven’t seen any in Starfleet yet which is surprising), or the Cardassians, the Ferrengi and on and on. We haven’t learned much and I’m excited to see what we will be exploring the next few seasons. And maybe new species have taken dominance as well.

And stuff like the Temporal wars, I just want to learn more about it. Maybe it and the Burn are tied together. We just don’t know.

And I also love the idea of rebuilding the Federation. That’s clearly going to be more than just this season so I want to see how that will play out in the future. That’s what excites me, just the potential of new storytelling they can now tell that they couldn’t before. Maybe it won’t be all that great, but I still rather have mediocre storytelling in the 32nd century as opposed to mediocre storytelling in the 23rd century. At least it’s something new. ;)

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Fair enough.

Well, trekmovie folks, you were correct and I was not about Carl’s identity. Well done!

Now back to the mysteries of the Burn.

I enjoyed these two episodes, but the story could have definitely been told in a single episode. It was Yeoh’s swan song though (at least in Discovery), so I get why they wanted it to be a big event of sorts, but if you look at the screen time spent in the MU, it comes out to be just a little over a single episode. As such, it would have made more sense to just do an extra long episode instead of splitting it into two. For some reason, however, it seems like CBS wants to keep all of their streaming shows at about the same length as a broadcast show. I’m sure it’s because CBS wants to eventually air these on broadcast TV (as they did with season 1), but it definitely limits the words ability to tell longer stories.

I’m going to miss the emperor. She was one of the most fun characters on Discovery. I can’t wait for Section 31.

Glad she’s getting her own show.

Me too.

After this pre-season detour, I’m intrigued about what the EPs have in mind for the new series.

I’m just hoping its not back in the 23rd century. I would love to see Section 31 post Picard,, like the 25th or 26th century, since we have no idea what they been up to since DS9 ended obviously. And I know both me and you would like to see something like a universe hopping show. That could be TONS of fun. I thought they were setting that up with this two parter but it can still happen.

So I’m intrigued too. I was hoping she stayed in the 32nd century but the potential is still there to do something big in a different time period.

Anyone familiar with Harlan Ellison and his works would likely come to the following conclusion: Ellison would have threaten to sue and, more likely than not, would have hated how the Guardian was utilized. That’s how the man rolled and he is sorely missed.

Probably, but he also didn’t like how the Guardian was used in TOS.

“I AM THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER!” That was my favorite moment this season. Chills. Loved that they used the original voice actor from TOS. It was epic. I watched that scene 7 times in a row.

You guys are really easily impressed. And thats exactly why the writers get away with what they are doing. Again, regrettably.

I was about to reply with something similar. Many seem to be happy anytime any reference to an old show gets tossed in no matter how they use it or misuse it.

Methinks polaric energy getting a mention is a clue. :)

GOF vs Talosians: Thoughts?

Last edited 6 months ago by Trek in a Cafe

No vs. Just great to see both of them.

I think I loved “If Memory Serves” better than this two parter, but I loved the Guardian of Forever in this.

I just wish that we had some hint of where Georgiou has gone, but that’s what the series premiere is for.

Well, we’ve got hints. The Guardian said that he was sending her to a time when the universes were more aligned, and Kovich said that the last crossing was 50o years ago. Since we can assume that she is going to an era where Section 31 exists, that is probably somewhere from the 22nd century to the 27th century. Its still a big range, but it narrows it down a little.

Now you see that I heard that as going even further back, perhaps earlier than Enterprise. Somehow, I was thinking that this would get us back before First Contact in order to have a major reset of the MU.

But since so many others are thinking later, I’m recognizing that they’ve left themselves flexibility to change up the concept completely.

Last edited 6 months ago by TG47

I know it’s popular theory to say the MU diverged from the PU from some point (like first contact) but they’ve established that the universe is fundamentally different. So I don’t think there would be any resetting the MU.

Since the range is likely between the 23rd century and 27th, it’ll probably be either the time she left or late 24th century (so they can utilize existing props and settings).

It’s actually an NCIS/Star Trek hybrid and set about… now.

There is no point where the MU diverged from the PU. They are separate and always have been. The idea that they are moving apart is just Secret Hideout nonsense.

I don’t think there are many who really care where she went. Out of the Trek universe is the hope for a lot of us.

Could Guardians be Organians? Or a splinter group of Sargon’s folks? (maybe I shouldn’t even put it out there, somebody at CBS could Marvel this into a huge mess tying The Preservers into T’kon Empire and other way-out stuff.)

One sentence review: first it was boring, then it was stupid!

This must be the most anticlimactic conclusion to a two parter in Trek history. Even Im not a fan of the mirror universe past TOS at all and I particularly did not want them waste time this season AGAIN on this inconsequential drivel, at least they had all the cards on the table last week. To use MU parlance, this week’s conclusion could have been GLORIOUS! Instead the constant announcement of Lorca’s appearance, down to the first 10 minutes of this show, turned out a red herring, violating the basic Chekhov’s Gun writing rule (I’m sure the writers feel all edgy and subversive for fooling their audience in all their misguided new age folly).

And then they didnt even bother to SHOW (or even tell) us where Space Hitler was heading, making this whole two parter a giant set up for SOMETHING?! It would be most hilarious if post-pandemic the S31 now never come to the screen, a fitting coda to this failed episode. Never mind the Guardian – this had been telegraphed in the first part already by the paper and has no relevance to the story anyway – another anticlimactic easter egg.

Now, this would all be just boring and mediocre, only lightly saved by the considerable acting efforts of Yeoh with first grade writing exercise lines like “After a long night the sun rises” (!) It would be – if not the writers felt the need to tack on that final funeral scene that really showed to what depths writers and producers have jumped the shark. “She was a tormenter but a truth teller” Really? Do these shmocks realize what character they themselves had setup they gave these loving lines to by every single crewmember, no dissent even from Reno?

Frankly this is beyond nauseating and once again it proves nobody on this show has any right to pass moral judgment on certain developments in our world since their moral center is completely off. Imagine someone gave a loving obituary to Hitler with the words: “He was a holocaust-committer but also a hero”. Sick!

Last edited 6 months ago by Vulcan Soul

You nailed it. This is the best take I’ve read.

You nailed it! You summed up the episode perfectly.

You nailed it! You rephrased the comment above yours perfectly.

Well thank you folks for so much endorsement even if one is AI-generated and one is sarcastic meta-posting ;)

Don’t be hypocritical. You still worship persons from history which are like Georgiou, just don’t care about this that was a long time ago. And yes we could think about Hitler a hero if:

  1. he didn’t turn in mad man
  2. win war
  3. never exist in our world but was taken from alternative like Georgiou.

A read opinion that Lincoln could be like and first Hitler cos his syfilis and politic if he be not shoot. History is twisted and write by winners.
Do you know that some German miss him cos crime made by muslim? Or that he was a hero for Soviet and Ukraine which have worst tyran like Stalin? Black runner had his photo in wallet and said that he was better treat in Germany before war than in own country, USA. Georgiou is rather like Dzingis or Rome, not Hitler.
And she ruled Imperium in the same way like Klingons, Vulcans or Romulans. Do you like Klingons? Right? Cos they are something like samurais? Or Vikings? Read about them, read what they do.

Last edited 6 months ago by Res

Do you know that some German miss him cos crime made by muslim?”

Who says that? Where did you get that?

Black runner had his photo in wallet and said that he was better treat in Germany before war than in own country, USA.

Yes, Jesse Owens. He still is a legend in Germany. Germans loved him at the 1936 Olympics. I don’t think the photo story is true. All I can say, Owens was a class act.

I’d have to say, that is basically spot on… Well said!

I disagree.

Noted ;)

Great post, and even more points for your reserve in not asking a34 to support his view. From reading part of this thread, I don’t know if I’ll even ever bother watching s3 whenever I can get it for free. Even at the end of QUIZ SHOW, when all of the investigators are falling over themselves trying verbally gladhand the Fiennes character for finally coming clean (after being forced to), at least one of them calls him on his behavior and says there is no reason to applaud a guy who just finally got round to telling the truth (after exploiting the system for enormous gain.) Sounds like DSC doesn’t even have that one voice in the wilderness speaking truth.

Seriously does not bode well for what these folks and their acolytes/supplicants will do with Pike and SNW (which I would maintain excitement over just from Mount’s talent, if not for the b-t-s folks making me think of SNW as standing for Something Not Worthy (of Mount’s talent.)

I dismissed the idea that it was the Guardian because the way he acted in City made it seem he was unaware of parallel universes. I’m glad the writers took time to give some kind of explanation for the change in behavior, though.

Many years ago I learned the Chinese look at the world very differently from North Americans. We were discussing the Japanese occupation of China during WWII, and despite their military defeat, the Chinese were adament they would have won the war – because centuries into the future, the Japanese military victors would have been “absorbed” culturally, spritually and every way that mattered. It was hard to argue that! It is also not hard to imagine the character of MU Georgiou would view the Terran Empire as a waste – knowing the Federation had outlived it, even if it was hundreds of years into the future and only a sliver what it may have once been. As Kirk once said to Spock – “the illogic of waste!” It seems Kirk and Spock are not the only ones who could see the illogic of being a willing part of the Mirror Universe.

Japan and China are places I want to travel in the future. Japanese history and Japanese culture has always been interesting to me. Chinese history is cool too.

China and Japan can coexist. Same as South Korea and other Asian countries.

Chinese history is fascinating. There’s currently so much Western animosity to China’s perceived threat to the world, but it should be tempered a bit. The Communists are committing serious human rights violations in regions within their own borders and needs to be confronted about that, but the country has also opened up and become much freer in the decades since Tiananmen. China antagonizes Taiwan, Japan and India while propping up North Korea, but every major power needs to look to its own house about how it has pressured its neighbors, especially if that country has an imperialist past. The closest China has come to invading a country was supporting the Communists in the Korean War. And North Korea now serves as a buffer to the West and is a refugee crisis in waiting if it destabilizes – that’s China playing the long game right there, as is its economic muscle and rapid technological developments. Some of that comes from stealing IP… but all those companies knew what they were getting into when they went to China for cheap labor.

China is a complicated beast that deserves to be treated as such. I think too many people want to think in black and white like it’s the Cold War again. It’s not.

And traveling to Asia is the bomb. Japan is remarkable, Korea has some very cool sights, China is vast and so varied, Southeast Asia is a cultural wonder. Highly recommend.

My wife having family in Cambodia means I have been there and to Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam. Honestly, the geography is fascinating. But save for the city state of Singapore the social aspects of those areas I find amazingly depressing. Plus the weather is monumentally oppressive. Hot and wet doesn’t do it justice.

Yes, you need to be there a long time to acclimate to the humidity. I never can.
There’s a lot of poverty and corruption, but they are all making their strides as best they can. And it’s important to visit and support regions that could well bulldoze natural and cultural heritage without some patronage.
Singapore is interesting. Very expensive and a testament to what the Chinese will do when afforded a decent amount of personal freedom and lots of money. Crazy some of the extravagant things there are in that country. A wonder though!

MU is very logicall. Illogical is way of Federation which collapse in Andromeda and its ideas destroy Terrans.
Chinese – they have right. They have a proof in theirs history for it. They assimilated Mongols, Mandzurs, Huns, kingdoms in period of fighting them. Japan take from them whole culture, they HAVE not own from time of Aino. And they know how wait. Some generation, not like west which is still hurry and can’t exist in solid structure longer than 1k years.

Question… How would Georgeau know the Federation outlived her Terran Empire? She was never shown the future of her universe. She only saw this one.

I believe David Cronenberg told her, no?

OK. I’ll believe you. I recall MU Spock telling Prime Kirk that logically the Terran Empire would indeed fall. But I honestly don’t recall the Cronenberg conversation with Space Hitler because anytime she is on screen it’s just too painful to pay close attention. My personal “how much I care about this scene” meter drops to zero.

Yeah, Cronenberg’s character told her the Terran Empire collapsed – I think he said a few hundred years ago.

I watched the episode now and the Mirror Universe is a lost cause. Now we don’t need to go there ever again. The Guardian was right all along. Space Hitler got the last laugh.

Didn’t think this was a great episode or the best of 2 parters in Trek history, but not getting the hate for it either. It reminded me of a kinda middling TNG/DS9 episode that was just ok … and that’s fine.

The reveal of the Guardian is the best scene and a goosebumps moment, but it’s only really a payoff for fans aware of “City.” If you were watching this on its own without the background of TOS, you would be like who the hell is the Guardian of Forever?

For the people complaining the series is too sympathetic towards Georgiou and it’s crazy to do a redemptive arc because she’s Space Hitler, how is that any different than something like TNG’s “Deja Q” which by the end gets the audience to feel compassion towards Q (who has tormented entire species on a cosmic scale) because he’s learned a little bit about what it means to be human? Or Garak on DS9, who is one of the most popular characters in Trek fandom, but is also a murderer, torturer (even tortures Odo at one point), and attempts genocide during the series, but whom we come to empathize with and care about by the end of the series.

I’m not saying the execution of it is perfect, but the writers want Georgiou to be redeemed through her love for Michael and Michael’s feelings for her. The Guardian spells it out during the “weighing” scene and how when given the chance Georgiou is not the same Georgiou that came from the Terran Empire. Just like Garak was changed just a little by all of his conversations with Dr. Bashir, some of Michael and the Federation’s root beer have rubbed off on Georgiou.

Last edited 6 months ago by Edward Samuela

I really agree with the article that Disco has a tendency to spoil ‘moments’ be they fan service or character moments just by doing too much. I’m not a massive TOS person, but I love COTEOF and have watched it multiple times, but the ‘I am the Guardian’ boomy reveal did nothing for me. I know Harlon Ellison and the episode generally have all become larger than life – but as realised on screen, the Guardian itself is little more than a framing device in that old episode. The story and emotional heft is all supplied by the excellent writing and acting for the Kirk, Spock, Bones and Edith Keeler characters. In universe it makes absolutely no sense – he’s presented himself as whimsical old Carl, and then suddenly decides to put on a voice for his catchphrase which Burnham and Georgiou have no point of reference for? (And then go back to being Carl?)

I’m ok with Georgiou’s arc, a character journey can still be interesting if that character has done some terrible things as you say – maybe more so. I totally bought it and liked Michelle’s performance. My problem is again an overdone moment thing – at the Georgiou ‘wake’ the crew is, to me, unbelievably positive about her given what’s been on screen. I found this to undercut the much more in-character goodbyes with Saru/Tilly in Part 1 and then Michael (at the portal) in Part 2. She showed development in her MU adventure, but in-universe she was Space Hitler, then an irredeemable a-hole to the crew and a badass helper/rogue when she felt like it – I don’t buy that adding up to the extent of warmth the wider pool of characters show at the end, even at a wake.

The difference between Georgeau and those others you mentioned is that they are all from our universe while Georgeau is NOT. Her behavior is perfectly acceptable in her society and world. It is far more unlikely she would not bend one inch due to where she is from than the others to be redeemed.

You are not really comparing Georgiou to Garak?
Georgiou is one of the most one-dimensional characters in Trek history &Garak one of the most multifaceted.

Garak like many of DS9’s Cardassians is never portrayed as pure evil or pure good. You like them, they are smart and compassionate. Their society is built up quite realistically in a way bad people can do good and good people also can do bad. But on the other Cardassians bad is never just redeemed and forgotten, the Bajorans make sure you don’t forget…

I thought the scene where they all grieve her absence was ridiculous, but otherwise, this was pretty solid. I’ve hated Mirror Georgiou ever since she made her debut, but this episode got me closer to liking her than I’d ever have thought possible, AND more interested in her spinoff show than I’d have thought possible. Which is great! I welcome it.

Not too big a fan of the Guardian being turned into a jokey dude in a bowler hat, though. It makes zero sense in relation to existing canon, not that that’s something this show typically cares about. I’ll give it a mildly reluctant pass, though, because it’s entertaining.

I liked both parts of “Terra Firma, a lot. Part 2, though, was better, all around, for me. It was darker in tone, and more realistic. I loved how the Guardian Of Forever was used, and the reveal scene gave me chills. But the “wake” scene, at the end? It felt tacked on, and completely tone deaf.

I loved the scene were Reno just kept on eating her licorice.

Again, the too-long teary-eyed ending made this long-haul MU diversion land with a thud. If they could cut down the tear-jerking emotional episode endings by a few minutes each this season, they’d have enough time for another whole episode. Maybe show where the Empress ended up for a few seconds? Or is that new show still in development-hell? I love the season, but the Terra Firmas made me impatient.

I gotta admit-hearing Bartell La Rue’s voice again gave me the nerd shivers!!!!😊😊

The Guardian of Forever; as it was revealed and developed, intrigued me. I was longing for the mother/daughter relationship to wrap up. alt-Michael was obviously still a threat.

However, I must admit the entire episode played well. We were given only a short time with the Guardian, but it was more than enough.

Another compelling subplot is the 100 million year-old “sphere data” that has integrated itself into Discovery’s main computer! That “entity” is actively engaged in Discovery’s missions! (is Discovery playing with fire?)

Discovery has my attention, now. The reintroduction of The Guardian of Forever, in the manner it was, can be considered a masterpiece from fans of the original’s timeline. Is the Guardian of Forever going to form an “alliance, with adjudication”…like “Q?” Is it a “Q?” Where is “Q,” anyway?

Discovery has a lot of good stuff to build on!

This was another classic “Parts One and Two” of the Star Trek TV franchises. I enjoyed it very much. But to have really appreciated it, one would have had to watch the entire series to date…and of course, have watched the classic original episode “The Guardian of Forever.”

Oh this show. It can’t seem to do anything right. I think they try hard, but they just don’t get it. Just because they said they are void of canon doesn’t mean they are limitless to distorting it. Did he really have to change his voice when he said I AM THE GUARDIAN…? And then the door expands to an oversized GoF? It would have made more sense for George or Mike to say hm ok because they don’t know WTF it is! In TOS the GoF told the crew, I was created to show the past in only this way. I guess what we have is a GoF 2.0. Oh and how about this one. George walks through the door in Pt1 and then in Pt2 Mike says you passed out for 1 minute. I think when they were filming they couldn’t figure out a good exit strategy and pieced together that garbage scene. And YES….she cried again

All good points. Carl announced he was the Guardian and while nice for fans who love fan service it meant nothing to those two. They still have no idea what went down. And I’m sure there will be no questions or investigations into it when they return. I mean, this is something huge. And should be investigated. Maybe they could use it to get back? I’d argue this device should be investigated before the cause of the burn. And would be far more important to everyone.

Actually a fairly enjoyable episode, even if the MU has “worn out its welcome” (which it nearly has). The problem here is nu-Trek’s shameless sentimentality, with all the lingering shots of glassy-eyed Burnham emoting, which is about as long as our eyes are ever allowed to settle. (Same with the movies.) And the Guardian is just fan service, which is a form of sentimentality, beside being low-hanging fruit for the writers. I imagine that but for the death of Harlan Ellison, this couldn’t have happened, the stink he’d raise. If the writers could just rein in their lazy fructivorousness. Unrelated observation: why is Starfleet sending their only spore drive-capable starship over hill and dale without at least duplicating the technology in other ships? One would think it should be fairly easy for 32nd century scientists to figure out and implement throughout the fleet. Perhaps Vance could stop brooding for a moment and pick up a hyperspanner.

Last edited 6 months ago by Praetor Tal

may not have anymore tardigrade DNA to inject into someone is the only reason I can think of. And maybe this is why in the future the Discovery becomes dormant (if Staments is dead)

DNA is one of those things that can be replicated. Relying on Stamets for navigation is a good observation, though.

I tend to disagree. The MU should get its own show or telemovie series. It has that certain Star Wars feel to it that could easily win over new fans. Evil Terran Empire, alien Coalition / Rebels, it all adds up to a joyride of epic proportion if done right… The Mirror Theme used on DSC is almost as good as William’s Imperial March…

Great! I’m glad I’ve been wrong and you’ve been right about the involvement of the Guardian. Much better than the mind game I had imagined. Good resolution to Georgiou’s arc. It’s a big surprise they could end it in a proper, satisfying way. And the perfect start for her spin-off if they move forward with it.

Only complaint: I could have done without the brutality, especially the blood-stained sword. I still feel bad about this sort of gory exhibitionism. I prefer the good old way they used to do that stuff of Next Gen and DS9. When Worf killed Duras or Gowron, it never was that explicit. I know, people expect it to be like that these days but I simply don’t and that is not going to change any time soon…

Last edited 6 months ago by Garth Lorca

Agreed. Missus and I remarked at the time that the blood-spitting death throes were gratuitous.

Honestly I didn’t even notice. But to fair it was hard to really pay attention to these two episodes. Anything having to do with Georgeau causes me to start thinking about anything else but the episode I am watching.

We know that CBS has plans for many different series in the STAR TREK Universe. Disco season 3 episode 10 raises the possibility that one of those series could be STAR TREK:TEMPORAL WARS. Think of it, because of time travel, this new series can go to any time in the STAR TREK universe. We could see new characters, characters from Trek novels, minor characters from the franchise AND beloved characters from ANY of the previous series. The Voyager crew, DSN, TNG, ENTERPRISE and even TOS! Many of the actors from these series have expressed interest in reprising their roles given the chance. Please think about it CBS.

I’m really struggling to stay interested, especially when The Mandalorian is so much better on every level.

Discovery has so much potential which just isn’t being tapped.

Did Cochrane use dilithium in the first warp capable ship? Where did it come from if he did?

Not canon but it was mentioned at some point in Trek literature that dilithium was found on one of Jupiter’s moons. The fifth moon, I think was the reference. I’m really old so maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Quick question…

How did the Sphere Data know where the Guardian of Forever was? Carl said he’d relocated and disguised himself because of the Temporal Wars, which happened a few hundred years after Discovery found the Sphere Data. And then the Discovery and the Sphere Data jumped to the 32nd Century, leapfrogging over the whole Temporal War affair, so how did Zora/Sphere Data know where the Guardian was?

Last edited 6 months ago by Thorny

Maybe the sphere data computer knew the “time signature” of the Guardian (the waves mentioned in COTEOF) from some ancient data source, then matched those with some recent 32nd century starfleet data to pinpoint the location.

They knew it because they needed the episode to happen.

Exactly. Trying to make sense of these shows anymore is a waste of time.

Does anyone else think that the roles should of reversed and the lead in this show should of been prime Georgiou and supporting actress mirror Burnham. I think SMG nails the villain role quite well.

Yes & yes. 100% would have been a far superior premise. Prime G had some of the best scenes in the series, as has Mirror M. Like learning to deal with half Vulcan & half human sides (Michael never acts at all Vulcan even though raised there), this show could have dealt with Michael having to overcome her Terran tendencies in a tamer universe.

Wow. Just… Wow. I mean… So much wrong here. So very very much.

So the obvious “character change” pretty much everyone saw coming happened. We saw it coming because it was among the dumbest things they could possibly do to a MU character. Space Hitler suddenly changed her nature. Her entire DNA just because she hung around a ship full of nice people. This is Lorca level lameness. That entire farewell scene turned my stomach. Georgeau had zero reason to be emotionally attached to this evil dictator. None. Yet she acted like she was losing her actual mother who was in her entire life. This makes zero sense.

Then there was that Guardian of Forever garbage. Again, dumb. Why in the hell would whatever the intelligence behind the guardian give a rats ass about Georgeau? There was no reason whatsoever for that. The writer really doesn’t have a firm grasp on the Star Trek universe. Just because they saw TCOTEOF doesn’t mean they know their Trek. Also if they cared why would they NOT send her back to where she belonged? The MU. None of this makes a lick of sense.

This show keeps getting worse and worse as the season continues. The more Discovery goes on the more I am convinced the writers do not know about the world they are writing about. Even Reno, who until now could be counted on with a clever and amusing comment, couldn’t breath a little life into this corpse.

Sorry for the rant but this is just turning into a steaming hot pile.

I guess the good news is that perhaps without Georgeau that is one less terrible element to sink the show.

I totally agree. See my rant above. That whole GoF George stuff was so poorly written, directed, edited and if not for some pretty good acting would’ve been the worst thing in trek I have ever seen.

I can’t stop. The people that write and put this show together are LAAAAZZZY. I hope you are reading this. Go watch the TOS City on the Edge of Forever and see what REAL writing is. You should be embarrassed for this episode

I am the GUARDIANNN OFFF FOREVERRRR. Lame to the nth degree. Nice voice “Carl”. When did you get the body. When did you start showing time, oh wait you didn;t, the way you were created to do. When did you get access to other dimensions. When did you get the power to put someone into a timeline that already had that person there. When did you get the door. How did George walk through in pt 1 and then be told she has been passed out for 1 minute.

I have one big big question.. am I the only one who have noticed that Carl says “I am 𝘼 Guardian of Forever” he didn’t says: “I am 𝙏𝙝𝙚 Guardian of Forever” ??

Last edited 6 months ago by Mac FIRE EAGLE

Sincerely.

Don’t think that would be anything less than intentional.

Just watched the season finale of The Mandalorian…
And that’s how you do a series that pays real homage to what has come before and doesn’t crap on what will come and has such emotional weight you are in floods of tears at the end.

Sorry Discovery, you aren’t a sliver of anything by comparison.

Not even a SW fan but sure do love MANDO.

I know this isn’t the forum for that, but 100% agree, Retrograde. Absolutely blown away by the entire show. Trek could sure use a Filoni/Favreau.

What about Admiral Vance? The CinC of Starfleet and the only admiral seen in the 32nd century, who deals directly with the captains (no layers of command in between) and frequently with science officers too. They are missing a big opportunity for drama by not having a 32nd century character join the Discovery crew. There could be conflict built in to such a setup. At least have some trainers. In Relics, the great Scotty felt challenged by TNG engineering. The Discovery bunch picks up tech that is 900+ years ahead seemingly in a weekend. The admiral just keeps this crew from a primitive time together and sends them out on missions in an unfamiliar universe. What do we think about how Vance has handled Discovery?

Can you imagine Mirror Jet? 😎

Whoa, what exactly did Burnham do to Bryce that his badge was so bloody!?

Kelpien is off the menu! (Hooray!) But Mirror Siranna has been confirmed dead. (Nooo!)

OK, Mirror Owo is just blindly loyal to the Emperor. But Killy? Isn’t she supposed to be one of the most evil Terrans? So why does she ’till the end assist Georgiou following her new course?

Mirror Culver doesn’t talk very much, does he? Strangely, I don’t remember him having any lines…

To my knowledge, this is the first time that the Mirror Romulans ever get mentioned in canon, and also the first time since Enterprise that the Denobulans (Mirror or otherwise) are mentioned.

Pure speculation on my part, but… I wonder if this episode was originally written with actually finding Lorca in the end, but Jason Isaacs wasn’t available, and so we just get this random dude??

The toasting in the end gotta be to be one of the most controversial scenes of this episode! I can buy Burnham being sad about Georgiou being gone, I can even buy Saru finding a few nice words about her, given that they indeed developed some mutual respect towards each other – but all the others??

Last edited 6 months ago by Bird of Prey

 I can buy Burnham being sad about Georgiou being gone,”

You have great powers then. I can’t buy it for one second. It made zero sense for her to take her back with her from the MU to the prime. And it made no sense for her to harbor ANY kind of feeling for this NOT the Georgeau she admired replica. And a SCIENCE officer would realize that.

I watched this episode a second time. Overall I really liked it.
The one scene I thought was out of place was the last one. I know Burnahm and Georgiou were close, but I am not really sure how realistic it was for the other characters beyond maybe Tilly, Saru and Doc Culber to say they would miss her. Only Carl knows how much she has changed.
IMHO, they could have done an outtake – ending the show and then showing the cast and crew saying goodbye to Michelle Yeoh. I can see Yeoh being missed greatly. That would have been very cool and an unorthadox way to close the episode.

Last edited 5 months ago by DeanH

Wow. Kind of ruined the Guardian of Forever for me. But pretty much in keeping with the lastst Treks taking something significant from TOS and making it a throwaway. (See the triple moons?)
Can we be done with the mirror universe now?
To be honest, the only thing I liked about this episode was the extemely ordinary meals they kept through to mirror Burnham in the brig. That was more interesting than anything else in this episode.

You know what? I paid more attention to what was on those trays than I did to the entire rest of the goings on in the MU! Good call.

Wow – 2 episodes that don´t bring the main story one iota forward. 1/5th of the entire season. I don´t give a damn about Georgiu and the mirror universe. The most interesting thing 900 years in the future is finding out what cause the collapse of the Federation. Now they only have 2 episodes left to bring that to a close – I don´t have high hopes for a good explanation.

EDIT: Ugh where did the paragraph breaks go? Wall of Text alert added! Soapbox alert, TLDR, but I would like to get these thoughts out anyway, please. Try to imagine the episode not just from the PoV of the longtime fan who knows who the GoF is, but from the perspective of the DISC fan that hasn’t seen the original Star Trek. Its really hard to look at a series like Trek that means so much, and that you have so much knowledge of, and just for get that I know, but just try. There are TONS of fans in scifi fandom that watch the later but not earlier stuff – fans of Doctor Who for example who never watch the pre-Eccleston (old) Who because of cheap cardboard sets and lame effects. Same for Trek fandom. Some may have watched TNG and its contemporaries. Some may not have watched even that. For them, that reveal is likely mind-blowing because who would have thought this guy was some kind of weird device or whatever? Those kind of fans don’t go to sites like this to get spoilers and debate canon, and they are the majority of viewers. The problem with writing for Trek is that you have a diversity of fans and fan perspectives and inevitably what pleases some of those fans won’t please the others. So to try to please them they put in a device/character that non-fans will enjoy but old fans would likely enjoy seeing from their ‘more informed (in canon)’ perspective. Ya can’t win em all. The ultimate loyalty for writers and producers of any series is to aim to please THAT series’ fans and not the others, because those are the ones that keep eyeballs on the screen and the show on the air (or the Internet, I guess nowadays). Ive been a fan for nigh-on 50 years.. sure I have complaints about just about every series, but I applaud the writers of each one for trying to put their own spin on Trek to keep it vital. even if I don’t always agree on the choices. But they aren’t writing the show for ME so how could I possibly expect to like everything? That would be hubris in extremis. For those that say DISC is crapping on their Trek memories or what they hold precious about the series they love: I’m sorry your thoughts on Trek can’t stand a different perspective. But it is fiction, pick and choose what you want from the universe and make it one you can enjoy and just ignore the rest. For example: The Guardian is millions of years old but only in the last thousand has it seemed to evolve. But its only in the last thousand years or so that it has been regularly in contact with other sentient beings after sitting waiting for a question for millions of years. So as I see it, it shouldn’t be a surprise it has evolved more in the last thousand years. The mere comment “A Question! … I have awaited a question” speaks to the Guardian’s excitement that millions of years of isolation are over, the excitement of it and the yearning for cotact was there in ts voice if you were willing to listen (wouldn’t a mere computer just say something like ‘Working” ?) so it has as I see it some sort of sentience, and (officially on screen) we’ve only seen a briefest glimpse of it. Who is to say what its potential is? It’s made to be what you choose it to be. Take what you want, use your imagination to fill the holes… Just don’t do i for real life *ahem*… and do the courtesy of letting other fans do the same. Please? As for those crying that Burnham is a Mary Sue, there is plenty of evidence to say that Kirk was a Mary Sue before the term was coined. Kirk saves the day every week in ToS (except when Spock does some weeks, and 1 or 2 times some other character and even then most times Kirk has a hand in it somewhere (I would put The Tholian Web as one of the few episodes where Kirk wasn’t around at all to be part of saving the day, but instead was the one to be saved)). So why is it that Burnham being in that role twists the knickers of some fans? Is it because she’s not the captain? Well in TNG it was often Data, Riker, or some other secondary character, not Captain Picard, saving the day – isn’t that a good thing? I dunno, maybe I’m naive… Whats wrong with some of us enjoying a series where one character predominantly saves the day? It is how ToS got me into Trek to… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by GraniteTrek

I’m not a fan of Star Wars but love Mandalorian just like the die hard SW fans. It can be done



This season is a total disappointment. The writers had a 900 yr blank slate so instead of going forward they go backward with The Burn. Weekly episodes go nowhere what is the story line to set up another spinoff that will probably be as equally disappointing. I am done with not worth watching

I like mirror Michael more lol…..I wish Lorca was in this episode. Still holding out hope he’s in Season 3 and his prime/mirrorversion is connected to the burn somehow….or he shows up in SNW or S31 tv shows….he was the best part of season 1

Many such journeys are possible.

I seem to be in the minority but after enjoying season 3 a fair bit so far I really couldn’t get into these last 2 episodes. The Guardian was a tool (that didn’t really make a lot of sense) to tell a great story in TOS, here it is fan service.