[Episode review starts at 10:35]
Tony and Laurie talk about Lower Decks’ international release, Chris Pine’s interest in another Star Trek movie, Alexander Siddig’s musings on Bashir’s future, Strange New Worlds starting preproduction, and David Cronenberg in Star Trek: Discovery’s season 4. After that, they review Discovery’s “Terra Firma, Part 2,” which they don’t quite agree on.
Links to topics discussed in the pod
‘Star Trek: Lower Decks’ Headed To Amazon Prime In UK, Europe, Australia & More Countries
Chris Pine Remains Hopeful For Another Kelvin Movie, Says Star Trek “Deserves To Have A Future”
Chris Pine to Star in ‘Dungeons and Dragons’ Movie for Paramount at Variety
Interview: Alexander Siddig On ‘Skylines’ & Dr. Bashir’s Life 20 Years After ‘Star Trek: DS9’
David Cronenberg On Where Kovich Is Headed On ‘Star Trek: Discovery’
Other mentions:
Doug Jones says Saru might sing again in season 3
Kirk talks Spock into changing the Empire
Picard wakes up after living a lifetime in 20 minutes in “The Inner Light”
The Ready Room on “Terra Firma, Part 2”
Trekbits:
Tony: Fact Trek
Laurie: The Well with Anson Mount and Branan Edgens / Hollywood Caucus with Jonathan Del Arco and Tara Karsian
Let us know what you think of the episode in the comments, and post your suggestions for topics we should cover when Discovery‘s third season ends.
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No offense. But I think Laurie is reading a little too much into the Guardian testing Georgiou being God. He just tested her to see if she would (in his mind) make better choices. I don’t know if she did necessarily. But in his eyes, she did. I thought the return of the Guardian was great. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just fall on the side of the Guardian of Forever was used well in this episode and if you are protective of something, you should get a sample of how someone interacts with that thing you are protective of before letting them fully have at it.
On another note: To make the commenters feel like they are a small part of the show, maybe there could be a segment that addresses comments in these threads that you deem worthy of sharing in the following podcast. Completely understand that time is definitely a concern in the podcast.
I get it. I was definitely not sure if my standards were perhaps too high in terms of understanding why the Guardian would care so much about Georgiou and have its own moral compass. As Tony keeps telling me, we’ve seen this on Star Trek many times before, but I think in those cases, the judger has something at stake. The Metrons were concerned about violence, Q thought humanity was a menace to the galaxy, etc. So I still wasn’t clear on what the Guardian’s stake was. Maybe that bit about the temporal wars was supposed to set that up that Carl is the guy who decides if people can use the portal or not? It’s one of those things I can reconcile if I add my own headcanon or expand on what they put in the episode. I think that’s what you are saying as well, and obviously for you, it was right there in the episode.
I like your suggestion about including comments on the podcast, we’ve had a lot of good ones in here and sometimes they change my mind!
Thank you for the response. I see your point and understand where you are coming from.
I was able to get to my understanding so quickly because I was always one of those kids that when my friends would ask, “Hey, can I play with your model starship?” I would always give them the one I cared about least (a Romulan warbird lol) to see what they would do. If the ship came back unscathed when we were done, that was usually enough for me to mentally say, “Ok. Here’s the Excelsior.” LOL. So, as soon as Carl said (I’m paraphrasing) that because people began essentially abusing time travel through him/the gateway, he began testing people to see what their intention truly was, I immediately connected to that.
Where this gets tricky for me is in the name Guardian of Forever. The name indicates the past, present, and future. So, as soon as he sent her back to the alternate MU, he should have known how she would act/react instantly. It shouldn’t have even taken a minute.
I’m probably overthinking it at this point lol.
I think your POV is totally legit. I would have liked a little more about that in the episode, but you’re right, it is in there. And really, it did take less than a minute! For Carl and Michael, the whole thing happened in an instant. It was only for Georgiou that it took a few months.
Very true. I’m totally over thinking it.
“Over thinking it” could be the motto of our podcast
Indeed!
I’m focusing on the name “Guardian of Forever” in a different way.
I always thought that the TOS scenario where some random explorers show up and inadvertently cause many changes with a “butterfly effect” , seemed to be inconsistent with the role of any type of “guardian.” Add on the concept that this guardian is guarding “forever,” it just seems to be negligent.
Whether the Guardian is a transcendental being or AI, it is odd that the Guardian just let McCoy jump through without any kind of challenge. The only way I understood it was that the portal and it’s guardian being or AI were so ancient that the safeguards built in were no longer a fit for the context. Something or someone, with agency to decide who go to use the portal, was missing.
TAS Yesteryear made more sense because Spock was called to the Guardian and the Guardian already knew he was to be trusted.
So, to me this less trusting Guardian in the 32nd century makes more sense, and may have restored something lost (whether in time or the revisions of Ellison’s script).
What I think this proves is that everyone brings something to their interpretation of who or what the Guardian of Forever is. Fascinating!
You could argue that the spin Discovery put on the Guardian of Forever retroactively makes more sense out of why it would let McCoy jump through unchallenged. Maybe it was testing the Enterprise crew in much the same way as Carl challenged Georgiou. There are some parallels there as both Kirk and the Emperor had to endure loss and great sacrifice in order to set in motion events that would lead to better future. In both scenarios the loss could not really avoided and the important thing was the reason why.
Interesting interpretation Corinthian7.
I like it.
The end of the episode was a bit awkward but Georgiou is a character. The Guardian has unlimited power! It was a test.
What they’ve done with the Guardian of Forever is very interesting. And that a Sphere Data-powered, borderline sentient Discovery can guess where the Guardian is hiding is also interesting to think about. Discovery seems like kind of a mirror of the malevolent Control who used access to the same information to wipe out life. Discovery uses knowledge to save/protect life.
As for Mirror Georgiou, I think we learned that she is redeemable not redeemed. As the tomorrow’s newspaper indicated her future is uncertain. After 3 seasons in the Prime Universe she’s definitely not the same person we originally met in the beginning. And while a lot of what changed her must of happened off screen since the crew respects her, I don’t mind that. (The minutia of all these characters’ personal interactions cannot possibly be presented to us in 40 minutes/week!) Like all humans she’ not wholly good or bad. We all chose good or evil continuously. As the Guardian indicated the point is that she’s trying. I hope we got to see more of this redemption in another show or what not. I will miss Georgiou’s snark and her ridiculously great action sequences. Yeoh is the GOAT!
Very good point. I think the hardest part for me was all the toasting (the “Irish wake” as Tony called it) at the end… it made it seem as if her redemption was complete, especially considering none of those people knew what she’d just been through. But you’re right, that’s what they were going for, and they put that headline in the paper for exactly that reason.
It still doesn’t sit quite right with me, mostly for the reason I said on the podcast. She never really looked back at her own actions, and the crew seemed much more forgiving of her than they were of poor Tyler, whose actions were not his fault at all.
I am finding this reaction so surprising. I can’t imagine how anyone could think that there was an alternative.
Almost no one goes to a memorial or a funeral or a wake to trash the memory of the deceased person. The social norms around honouring the life of the deceased are incredibly strong, as are social and cultural taboos about “speaking ill of the dead.”
In the nature of my work over the years, I’ve had to attend memorials for colleagues who, while not guilty of atrocities, were truly horrid in some of their work life. It certainly makes for uncomfortable and mixed feelings, and I saw Georgiou’s wake in that light.
A wake is just as much of a transition ritual as a funeral or memorial service. It’s a means to help the community come to terms with losing one of their members.
Those who aren’t able to stay within those norms of finding positive memories in the public part of the event up just don’t come to the event. Perhaps that is why some of Discovery’s officers aren’t in the room.
Certainly, the kinds of discussions and acknowledgments of bad behaviour and even unforgivable acts often happen at the margins of these memorials, but no one uses a wake to try the deceased in absentia.
I think there’s a pretty big difference between someone who’s a jerk or gets cranky or does questionable things, and someone who wiped out entire civilizations and killed and tortured people. I don’t think there will be a loving memorial for, say, Harvey Weinstein, to pick a modern-day non-fictional villain. He got a lot of great movies made, but somehow I can’t envision a lot of people sitting around toasting him after his death and joking about what a lovable pain in the ass he was. At least I hope I’m right about that…
We traditionally tend to stay silent on the negative after people have passed. The conversations around Kobe and his legacy and how the rape accusation fit into all that from earlier this year is a good example of this. For me, though, the Georgiou storyline speaks to the all the folks we’ve locked up and thrown away the key. What would the folks we label things like criminal and habitual offender be like if they came from an environment where violence isn’t pervasive? What if we invested in schools over jails? It speaks to possibilities if we reimagine law, order, crime and punishment. Cause what we’ve got now clearly is flawed.
I really like your podcast but this week I hoestly have to disagree on most issues. I think you’re right about this episode being too brutal and I somewhat agree on your complaint about DISCO boldly going where others have gone before (I think it’s exactly what happened to TNG despite going to the 24th century to avoid all that), but I really liked the conclusion to Philippa’s redemption arc and all the melodramatic goodbyes. Yeah, right, she was a murderer but so was Xena and she got her own show in an instant…
But the real issue I have is with you criticizing the Guardian’s appearance. We’ve been waiting for decades to have him pop up again and now that he’s back, I’m more than blown away.
I also think that the Guardian did NOT just put her to a test before sending her back in time. I think he actually recruited her! Maybe her show isn’t a “Section 31” show at all but a “Guardian of Forever” show and this was its backdoor pilot.
I could be wrong about it but I think that actually could be the case for a multitude of reasons:
First, the Guardian would inject a popular, topical connotation into a new series title. It has that ring to it that allignes easily with “Guardians of the Galaxy” or “Legends of Tomorrow” but they can still say: no, we are not just copy-pasting CBMs here! We are far older! Our Guardian goes back to 1967 and was invented by a legendary SciFi writer who has sadly passed away recently…
Their decision to give Strange New Worlds a go and and not to move forward with that Noah Hawley movie indicates they want to emphasize on elements of traditional TOS Trek. Having the Guardian at the center of a time travel / multiverse show would enable them to further elaborate on TOS (probably even finally re-introducing Gary Seven as well), but also open up opportunities to visit all ages of classic Trek. As Philippa would only be able to jump around centuries close to her own temporal point of origin, we’d basically be limited to 22nd-24th century Trek. Maybe that limitation was introduced on purpose to focus on those eras and when she has to go further, it’s always a super risky trip.
I also think that such a show could be popular with Doctor Who fans. Not only does “Carl” resemble some earlier classic Doctors, it would also star a female lead at the same time. Carl would be her boss while Georgiou does the dirty work. But it wouldn’t be a plain rip-off as it doesn’t involve a time ship but a portal, something that hasn’t been done very often yet. Time Tunnel comes to mind but that show is as old as TOS.
I could be wrong – as I was last week when I expected Carl to be the keeper of Fantasy Island – but I’d really be interested in seeing Star Trek: Guardians of Forever (GOF) as the next show…
Oh, and I forgot to mention the most important reason behind their thinking of going back to Trek’s TOS roots. It’s exactly what Star Wars is doing with their multiple streaming shows all somewhat revolving around their OT. Trek has been famous for trying to follow Star Wars wherever they go. They went to the big screen in the late 70s because of Star Wars, they did the ENT prequel show because of the Star Wars PT and now they might want to create various TOS spin-offs just like Star Wars is doing multiple OT spin-off shows.
And what better way is there than taking an iconic TOS gateway, a main character from the iconic TOS mirror universe and probably another iconic TOS character like Gary Seven (I still want to see Assignment Earth, the show!) and his shapeshifting cat… That episode was a then-turned down backdoor pilot for Trek’s first time travelling agent spin-off. Maybe we have just seen the backdoor pilot that finally makes it to a series order… about a time-travelling spy…
Even if Gary Seven isn’t there from day one, he might be introduced in Season 2, just like Boba Fett entered The Mandalorian later on and now got his own show…
Time Tunnel — that is a throwback reference!
I hardly understood the series when I watched it as a school-child, but the premise and the control centre were riveting.
I’ve been hoping Yeoh’s series lets her visit more than one timeline and different eras. A show that really digs into the multiverse concept would be great, but the crucial thing is for Georgiou to have an underlying mission to keep the strands of the multiverse from branching off in the direction of the doomed Terran Empire.
They might even “explain” various Trek continuity issues using time travel as a fun explanation. Vulcan having no moon or lots of moons, the Klingons having no devil… tiny little adjustments to the multiverse could easily explain all that as there might be multiple strands even to the Primeline… And our venerable Regina Andor might be behind all of these…
As for Time Tunnel, I loved it as cult companion to TOS and I’ve always wished for a Trek time travel show. Legends of Tomorrow and Doctor Who are also in that vein, just without a gate.
Thanks for the feedback and deep thinking…I agree Carl could be back and could be tied to the Yeoh show. As I have been saying on the pod the show may not be all S31 and may involve time travel. It’s more about her and we love Carl so having him as part of it would be great. This will probably be the subject of one of our upcoming theory/analysis articles.
And I was not really anti-Guardian. I liked what they did and agree with their choices on how they turned him into Carl. But I just want Disco to fully embrace the new, and to start forging its own path. So Carl being the Guardian is cool. but Carl being Carl would also be cool.
You got so much to say. Really good points too
This was the worst episode of Star Trek I’ve ever seen… and I’ve seen them all. Lots of episodes (TAS, early VOY and ENT particularly) are just simply boring. This episode was very boring too. But toasting a genocidal psychopath? These writers, producers, and characters have lost all moral credibility.
The guardian reveal was neat because Carl was so random and meaningless. At least we got to hear the original guardian’s voice. Such a great voice. And the shape of the guardian is cool. Always a pleasure to behold. I’ve built the guardian out of lego countless times.
I enjoy this podcast more than I enjoyed the actual episode of Disco. It feels like a chore sitting through this fan-fiction drivel just so I can keep up with the podcast and the general nu-Trek discussion.
Blessed be Macfarlane. A pox on all two dozen of Disco’s producers.
Well, I don’t know if it’s the absolute worst episode. But toasting a dictator like she was a crotchety but lovable neighbor on a long-running series was bizarre and disgusting.
Toasting to a murdering psychopath.
It’s not the worst episode but not great either. They pay homage to a murderer. That is wrong on so many levels! Disgusting and offensive.
Yes, she’s a murderer but she’s also a victim of her universe, her nurture. She has seen the alternative and embraced it to a certain degree. It’s not that black and white as there is evil in both timelines but yes, she has changed. They may have rushed it a bit but there is enough evidence to that. She still isn’t a knight in shining armor but she’s an anti-hero with potential for betterment. It was a questionable choice to take her along to begin with and opting for her own Trek show but that’s what they are rolling with. Xena wasn’t any better when we first saw her on Hercules but a short fight with the demigod turned her into her own show’s hero. Wasn’t garak a cold-blooded killer in his past? I’m not saying it isn’t delicate but I can buy it on a comic-book sort of level. The question remains whether Trek is supposed to be closer to real life than to comic books or Star Wars…
The question remains whether Trek is supposed to be closer to real life than to comic books or Star Wars…
I think that question was answered as soon as they indulged in going to the silly Mirror Universe again.
It was definitely strange as most of the crew may not even be aware of her actions in the MU. Saving Saru and freeing those Kelpiens, trying to reform her daughter with a jolly jar of fireflies, cutting deals with the opposition… all of that would justify a toast, but heck, they cannot possibly know that. The Guardian mentioned some of it in Michael’s presence, but from the crew’s POV that’s hear-say at best. The toast was definitely overdone and out of context.
But then, she was a member of the family. Michael said that she loved AND HATED her, they mentioned her downsides in a humorous manner. After all, though her previous fictional actions are quite similar, she isn’t the real Hitler, she’s just a fictional villain turned (sorta) good. She’s done much for the family. It was awkward but not completely without merrit. Forgiving her, celebrating her tenure aboard the DISCO is fine with me…
Anyway, if she can be the star of her own TV series, it’s no issue to toast her on DSC… It’s a strange choice, all of it, but they think they have changed her enough to deserve that… It makes sense, a tad, but yes, I can feel it…
And don’t forget: operating within her own universe, she wasn’t even provided with the sort of moral framework that outlaws genocide. Hitler chose to be a monster, going against Enlightenment and moral commandments. But if Hitler had won the war and if you grew up in a fascist society reigning for centuries, would you even have a chance at making the right choices? Philippa had none until she got onto Discovery. And she sorta embraced that alternative in her own twisted manner…
You make alot of Devil’s Advocage arguments (I hope) which however are irrelevant to this case because WE as audience, the writers of Discovery AND the prime universe Federation are supposed to share the same moral and legal code regarding genocide.
Excuse the over-the-topness for sake of illustration, but if a child molester from a far away third world country where this crime is not persecuted resettles to your country and stops doing his molestation thing (if for nothing else but being aware he’d get to jail or worse), does he become a good person? Should he go unpunished for his past crimes and even get second chances? You know the answer. This is a mockery of good and decent people who are screwed by life, who never get second chances, but dont let that break them.
Most values,yes, even something as gross as “child love” depends on the specific zeitgeist and the circumstances you grow up in.
Back in Ancient Greece, befriending underaged boys was socially acceptable. I’m not saying it should be fine from our POV but for historical figures like Aristotle or Platon, stuff like that – as disgusting as it may seem to today – was totally normal.
So, if Disco picks up Aristotle via time travel or encounters an alien civilisation that accepts that sort of behavior, what do you want to do? Wipe out that civilisation? Put an ancient Greek philosopher before a 32nd century court?
Your example shows that none of this is easy. It’s highly controversial to say the least. The DSC writers are guilty of making it appear a little less controversial than it should be handled but yes, it is not okay taking values for granted and judge people from other planets, cultures, eras and timelines by our own values. The automatism in your thinking is bewildering.
Values are relative. Look at the Klingons. From our POV, they seem to be blood-hungry savages. Judging them by humanitarian standards would make peace with them impossible. But the very lesson of Trek is IDIC and even those culture have a place in it.
If Vikings ruled the Earth and formed Starfleet, they would get along with the Klingons pretty well…
“Should he go unpunished for his past crimes and even get second chances? You know the answer.”
I don’t think there is an easy answer. Back in medieval times, people were actually judged by the values of their own people, not by the laws of the place they committed their crimes in. As long as there isn’t a universal legal canon for all of a United Earth accepted by the vast majority of mankind, I can hardly see any reason why I wouldn’t at least try to empathically understand people’s different upbringing and nurture. We cannot take for granted other culture share our values.
Our own values have been radically changing over the last two centuries. There is no sense in dealing with absolutes here and if there is a universe so different from our own as the MU, then yes, I cannot expect these characters to play along our rules from the very beginning.
So can I judge your examplary migrant by our laws? I don’t think so, unless these crimes are punishable in his own culture as well. If he commits crimes in our world, that’s a different story…
“because WE as audience, the writers of Discovery AND the prime universe Federation are supposed to share the same moral and legal code regarding genocide.”
The writers didn’t make genocide appear to be acceptable. They just made a point that even someone responsible for such atrocities deserves a second chance IF that person is willing to reform and cannot be made responsible due to her different nurture.
The prime Federation has basically one rule: the Prime Directive. If a pre-warp culture is enganged in genocidal activities, they do not have the right to stop them. Membership in the UFP is a different beast, but even there seems to be some leeway, especially when it comes to past crimes. The Klingons have committed genocide on a galactic scale and still they are allies of the UFP by the end of the 24th century.
WE, the audience, may definitely have strong feelings about some genocides, especially the Holocaust, but are we all actually in agreement over different events: the fate of the Native Americans, Maori and Aborigines? The fate of third-world countries once under British, French or Belgian rule? The people in Vietnam and Cambodia? The victims of an Arabrellion gone south? There are so many controversial aspects of intercultural clashes that I doubt there can be an agreement on any of that…
You make alot of Devil’s Advocate arguments (I hope) which however are irrelevant to this case because WE as audience, the writers of Discovery AND the prime universe Federation are supposed to share the same moral and legal code regarding genocide.
Excuse the over-the-topness for sake of illustration, but if a child m0lester from a far away third world country where this crime is not persecuted resettles to your country and stops doing his m0lestation thing (if for nothing else but being aware he’d get to jail or worse), does he become a good person? Should he go unpunished for his past crimes and even get second chances? You know the answer. This is a mockery of good and decent people who are screwed by life, who never get second chances, but dont let that break them.
Most values,yes, even something as gross as “child molestation” depends on the specific zeitgeist and the circumstances you grow up in.
Back in Ancient Greece, befriending underaged boys was totally acceptable. I’m not saying it should be fine from our POV but for historical figures like Aristotle or Platon, stuff like that – as disgusting as it may seem to today – was totally normal. So, if Disco picks up Aristotle via time travel or encounters an alien civilisation that accepts that sort of behavior, what do you want to do? Wipe out that civilisation? Put an ancient Greek philosopher before a 32nd century court?
Your example shows that none of this is easy. It’s highly controversial to say the least. The DSC writers are guilty of making it appear a little less controversial than it should be handled but yes, it is not okay taking values for granted and judge people from other planets, eras and timelines by our values. The automatism in your thinking is bewildering.
“But toasting a genocidal psychopath? These writers, producers, and characters have lost all moral credibility.”
Believe it or not, Peaches, it’s gotta get WORSE! According to the sneak peak of 3×11, next week’s episode CONTINUES the memorial service for the Mother of all Holocausts!
This is truly unprecedented in Trek history and a middle finger of Discovery writers and producers for their audience. They never acknowledged that this character is controversial, nay, any less than “delicious”, and these unbearable scenes prove that is exactly how they mean it!
Let’s ask ourselves how much memorial service did the true incarnation of Trek spirit, CAPTAIN Georgiou, got on Discovery? Instead, the characters, many of whom served with the Captain for many years compared to months of being insulted by this abom!nation, sully her memory by equating her to Space Hitler (“I learned as much from you as our Georgiou”), and more!
As someone else put it so succinctly, it’s the Discovery writers and producers themselves who are from the MU. And in Space Hitler they have found their kin!
“next week’s episode CONTINUES the memorial service for the Mother of all Holocausts.”
While I agree they handled Prime Georgiou’s demise in a distgusting way (eaten by Klingons), MU Phlippa is NOT the mother of all Holocausts. Her “war efforts” may have been relentless and murderous but basically “all” she was doing was wiping out the rebellion, not caring about collateral damage to civilians.
The real Holocaust was way more cynical, primarily focused on little children, old people, pregant women and babies, anyone who couldn’t be expoited as workforce.
Georgiou’s actions are closer to what America has done in Vietnam with Napalm bombardments or with Hiroshima, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians as collateral damage.
It’s not acceptable warfare but it wasn’t death camps either. The body count may be on a more galactic scale but there is a difference between cynical warfare and industrialized death camps.
The end result may be equally horrific but there IS a difference between Alderaan and Auschwitz. Simply not caring about your victims isn’t the same as selecting the weak and innocent for slaughter if you are able to physically separate them.
The Nazis could have just resettled those kids and old people, the Americans couldn’t waltz into Hiroshima and get the civilians out before dropping the load. And neither could Georgiou trying to defeat the Coalition.
“It’s the Discovery writers and producers themselves who are from the MU. And in Space Hitler they have found their kin!”
The truth is that TPTB wanted to turn DISCO into a TV-MA premium show in order to cater to the GOT and TWD crowds and needed an excuse for all the violence and bloodshed on Trek. Reworked Klingons and MU characters like Lorca and Georgiou presented an excellent backdoor for those elements not native to the Trek universe as we know it. I’ve been skeptical towards this goal from day one although I actually have more issues with the explicit visuals than the thematic darkness.
They are not from the MU but they wanted to “modernize” and update Trek to keep up with the increasing level of violence on TV. But while I’m disgusted by some of the gross visuals, I actually believe the thematic grittiness provides for some thought-provoking debates.
As you can see here, the writers have been VERY successful at triggering such controversy and that is indeed Star Trek at its best. TOS has been campy as hell at times but those stories were also pretty thought-provoking. And that’s what’s going on here.
Georgiou may be the caricature of a comic book villain but she and the handling of her redemption has caused some serious thinking and that is a good thing…
“The truth is that TPTB wanted to turn DISCO into a TV-MA premium show in order to cater to the GOT and TWD crowds and needed an excuse for all the violence and bloodshed on Trek”
Yes,I do remember that. The other part is that both Kurrzman and Abrams have confessed preferring Star Wars, so the core problem is that none of TPTB are truly ‘native’ to Trek.
“As you can see here, the writers have been VERY successful at triggering such controversy and that is indeed Star Trek at its best.”
I dont think this is the sort of controversy they should be triggering or the kind of controversy Trek triggered before,especially (from what’s appeared on screen, not what they may have “intended”) when they find themselves on the wrong side of a traditional Trek moral argument. Frankly it’s the kind of controversy that plays very well on social media, though, and I suspect that’s why they are doing it. Same as they had a couple of “controversial casting decisions” early in the season that triggered alot of articles and discussions but since then, with characters like Vance or Cronenberg, they have returned to much more “traditional” authority figures which make me think as so much of Big Business, Kurtzman isnt really a “true believer” in any of this but plays these cards as a cynical capitalist pandering to a desired target group.
“But toasting a genocidal psychopath? These writers, producers, and characters have lost all moral credibility.”
Believe it or not, Peaches, it’s gotta get WORSE! According to the sneak peak of 3×11, next week’s episode CONTINUES the memorial service for the Mother of all Holocausts!
This is truly unprecedented in Trek history and a middle finger of Discovery writers and producers for their audience. They never acknowledged that this character is controversial, nay, any less than “delicious”, and these unbearable scenes prove that is exactly how they mean it!
Let’s ask ourselves how much memorial service did the true incarnation of Trek spirit, CAPTAIN Georgiou, get on Discovery? Instead, the characters, many of whom served with the Captain for many years compared to months of being insulted by this abom!nation, destroy her memory by equating her to Space Hitler (“I learned as much from you as our Georgiou”), and more!
As someone else put it so succinctly, it’s the Discovery writers and producers themselves who are from the MU. And in Space Hitler they have found their kin!
I have to say, I’m really enjoying the Georgiou debates on here. So many good points on both sides!
Can you guys talk about how the stories are structured in Discovery on a future podcast? You brought up the point that the main mystery of the season, what caused the Burn, has basically been backgrounded for the last several episodes.
Discovery has done this every season now, abandoning the main narrative of the season about half way through by backgrounding it. Is it a structural problem inherent in the show? Do the show runners just not know how to keep narratives moving properly? It didn’t seem like this happened with Picard, so it seems like the current production regime can structure a good narrative when they want to.
With regard to this, could you please look into tweaking your keyword spam filter for the comments? It is really tough to write a comment about a serious topic like genocide since so many words which are not common insults instantly put a comment on moderation.
(I have a double post above due to this, please delete the second, I’m not able to anymore).
I greatly enjoyed your analysis on the podcast this week, Laurie. I mean, I enjoy it every week, but especially so this week when my reaction to Disco was so strong.
Thank you, I appreciate that!
Agreed. Your podcast has triggered a major philosophical / theological discussion that has touched on such questions as:
At its best, Trek gets into these perennial issues, which is probably why I have been a fan of all the series since seeing TOS “Miri” in its first run. I think of such episodes as “The Enemy Within” (TOS), “Who Watches the Watchers?” (TNG), “In the Pale Moonlight” (DS9), and “Mortal Coil” (VOY) as examples of what I mean.
Thanks, Laurie and Tony, for stimulating some thoughtful conversation.
I agree. I am finding these conversations fascinating, and while they won’t help with the fact that I didn’t enjoy the episode much, they DO help with me understanding more of what the writers were trying to get to (and did get to for many of you) and thinking more about the ideas raised. If you’re raised in a world of violence, can you be expected to know anything else? So much to think about and talk about!
One of the points that’s been highlighted in this discussion for me is that there are some fans who are looking for punishment for Georgiou, and rejecting forgiveness and redemption, when the writers made it clear that one of the main problems with the Terran value system was that people could only learn through pain.
The whole point is that using pain, torture and suffering isn’t the way to form or transform someone into an ethical human being. It just locks in more trauma and violence.
Georgiou’s experience in the MU in 309 & 310 wasn’t just a test. It also proved to her that punishment could not transform an amoral person into a more moral one or show them the value of compassion or a less violent way.
Well said, I am also glad to see feedback and debate after a pod.
Two words: President Saru
I watched this last episode a second time. Overall, I really liked it.
The one scene I thought was way out of place was the last one. I know Burnahm and Georgiou were close, but I am not really sure how realistic it was for the other characters beyond maybe Tilly, Saru and Doc Culber to say they would miss her. Only Carl knows how much she has changed.
IMHO, they could have done an outtake – ending the show and then showing the cast and crew saying goodbye to Michelle Yeoh. I can see Yeoh being missed greatly. That would have been very cool and an unorthadox way to close the episode. I will listen to the podcast and see what they thought.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the Temporal Wars ceased because the Guardian of Forever removed itself to the edge of the Gamma Quadrant?
One wonders if Yeoh’s Mirror Georgiou might become a temporal warrior/savior to correct timeline problems. Maybe Yor’s incursion has a specific delta with Georgiou that has yet to be explained. Maybe David Cronenberg’s Kovich already knows this — and is waiting for events to play out. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the Guardian of Forever.
I think the writers are finally showing off some impressive creativity and are realizing that the doors are wide open to developing a truly intriguing and potentially compelling show featuring Georgiou and Section 31. We shall see what they come up with
I’m also impressed how Erika Lippoldt’s neuroscience expertise is informing Georgiou’s arc.
I said on an earlier thread that this two-parter would let us know what the showrunners of Yeoh’s series are thinking about Georgiou’s interior changes. What this two-parter showed us is that the showrunners understand that profound changes are a slow process, are anchored in attachments and existing aspirations, and need to be supported by a change in environment.
Like others on this board, I’m not convinced that the other Discovery writers knew quite how to get the nuances for Georgiou and it seems also that Yeoh wasn’t getting the direction she needed on her voice overs. But Georgiou is far from the only character that was inconsistently written in S2 and S3 of Discovery. So, rather than saying that the transformation was unearned, I will be looking forward to seeing how Kim, Lippoldt and the 3rd showrunner will continue the psychological journey of this character.
Funny, to me and a few other people the seriously bungled (as ML31 puts it) character arc for Space Hitler, which was really only fleshed out beyond a placeholder in this very last episode in which she also departed (in the fine tradition of Airiam and Nhaan), proves exactly the opposite. Whatever scientific expertise these writers claim to have, it doesn’t absolve of their sophomore writing expertise, which is the more relevant skill for writing a prime time show. And if anything, the psychological underpinnings of Mirror Georgiou are as scientific as the Spore drive for FTL propulsion. This is not how real people behave or are, and there’s a reason in the real world people with this crime record do not end up like her. They end up in the Nuremberg trials and then, the fast ticket to hell! So that’s the fantasy fiction here. Like i said before, in the interest of preventing further harm from this declining society, thank god they are only writing in their bubble and not running for public office :)