Warning: Article contains SPOILERS up to episode 310 of Star Trek: Discovery.
In “Terra Firma, Part 2” we saw Michelle Yeoh’s Emperor Georgiou leave the 32nd century and the crew of the USS Discovery behind for parts unknown, via the Guardian of Forever. But in a series of post-episode interviews, Yeoh made it clear, Georgiou’s Star Trek story has not ended.
Georgiou “will live on, and on.”
In her post-episode interview with When asked by Wil Wheaton on The Ready Room about saying goodbye when shooting “Terra Firma, Part,” Yeoh said:
“It’s never going to be goodbye. Not if I have a hand in that… but at that moment it was really tough. Knowing that I will not be seeing my new family for a while… In my thirty years as an actor, Georgiou has been so fulfilling as an actor that it’s been awesome. And so for that reason alone, I’m never going away!”
Later when Wheaton asked about her arc on Discovery Yeoh made it even clearer, saying “Georgiou is never going away. She will live on, and on.”
Yeoh gave the same sentiment in an interview with Bustle:
“There are so many stories to tell of her,” Yeoh tells Bustle, assuring me that Georgiou is not gone for good from the Star Trek universe. “I know for a fact that if we are not giving up on her, we’re not going to put her on the shelf.”
And Yeoh confirmed in that Bustle interview that Georgiou’s future is not in the 32nd century with Star Trek: Discovery:
“Maybe one of the reasons why she is not in this timeline is to be able to go on more of her own adventures, more of her stories, more of the things that she has to live through.”
But with IGN, Yeoh did leave the door open for a return to Discovery:
“When she walked through that portal, when she said goodbye, even to Michael Burnham, is it really goodbye? I don’t know. I honestly believe that if one day Michael Burnham and the whole future was in [danger], she would claw and fight her way back to play a part in how to be part of their salvation.”
Discovery exit “necessary” to set up the Section 31 show
In January 2019 – before the premiere of Discovery season 2 – CBS announced the development of a new series which “will expand on Yeoh’s current role as a member of Starfleet’s Section 31 division, a shadow organization within the Federation, on Star Trek: Discovery.”
On Ready Room, Yeoh talked about how she had a conversation with Discovery’s co-showrunners Alex Kurzman and Michelle Paradise where they explained Georgiou’s exit in episode 310:
“It came to a point where it was necessary if we were going to go on more journeys with Emperor Georgiou that some things have to happen.”
Speaking to TV Insider Yeoh talked about progress on the Section 31 show, saying:
“I know the EPs and writers and my team are still working very hard because we have a lot more stories to tell. … I hope it will be very soon.”
When asked about what she would like to explore with Georgiou on the new show, Yeoh revealed a bit, but left the question of “when” the show is set open:
It depends on what timeline when she walks through that door. Obviously she’s not going to stay in the future, but I hope in the short time she was there, being the amazing engineer and smart cookie she is, she would’ve learned a lot about that time period that she would be able to take with her. Can you imagine what she could bring back to the past? Without changing the future, of course. Developments that could make a huge difference, and if it was Section 31, that’s what Section 31 is all about, isn’t it?
CBS continues to refer to the Section 31 show as being in development, however, there has been no confirmed start date for production. Before the pandemic, producers had said they planned to start on the Section 31 show in 2020 after season three on Discovery wrapped. As of now the next new show confirmed to be going into production is Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, which is expected to start shooting in early 2021 in Canada. Discovery season four began production in Canada last month and Star Trek: Picard is expected to start production on season two in January in Los Angeles.
Georgiou is a new person
If and when Georgiou is seen again, Michelle Yeoh believes the former Terran Emperor has changed. On The Ready Room she said:
“She was born into a world where a sign of weakness, any vulnerability means instant death… And then comes the good Michael Burnham, and it changed her. It showed her this is the daughter that she had always wanted… The one person that she truly loved was Michael Burnham and upon meeting the good Michael Burnham she realized she had to change. So when she was given the second chance by our glorious Guardian [of Forever], that was when she was being weighed to see if she had changed.
Because it is very obvious that Emperor Georgiou’s journey has not ended. It has not come to an end. But it depends on her whether it will end abruptly. I loved when she walks through the portal and realizes, ‘I am dressed as the Terran emperor, and I can see all my soldiers in front of me expecting the badass Emperor. ‘You can see in her eyes she has changed dramatically and drastically.”
And here is more from Bustle:
“She’s definitely had a change of heart,” Yeoh tells Bustle of Georgiou’s time spent with the Federation. “She had an awakening in the sense that she realized yes, you could rule with fear and tyranny, but only for a short period. This was what she learned from being in the Prime Universe. It’s about compassion, about hope. It’s about when people have nothing to lose, then they don’t care anymore. And when you don’t care, you don’t have a future.”
And speaking to TV Insider, Yeoh points to what Georgiou learned from Kovich about the fate of the Terran Empire after she left as another reason for her change of heart:
“The Terran empire disappeared after 500 years ago, there were no more crossings, we were never heard from again, and the only thing you can come away with that is that we destroyed ourselves. I think she realized that when she went back to Michael Burnham and she said, “How many more times are people going to revolt against us? If we don’t give the people some kind of peace and harmony, we are just going to kill ourselves.” She learned that just by killing, that was not the answer or the way to rule moving forward.”
And finally, with IGN Yeoh talked about how this redemption can play out in Georgiou’s future adventures:
“I really want to see more of how this person can have redemption. I think when she goes through the portal, Carl tells her, you can die in there, but it’s the way you use it. Can you change? Can you make a difference? And if you can’t make a difference in the past or the future, then you have no path. So it is up to you. And I know for a fact that we love this character. My team, my executive producers, my writers have been so amazing. I think we got into a stage where we loved this character so much, and there’s so much potential in stories and adventures that she can have.”
See more coverage of upcoming Star Trek Universe TV shows TrekMovie.com.
Georgiou was, by far, the show’s dullest character. So broadly written, so weakly acted. I am very glad she’s gone.
I think you may have missed the part about how her character isn’t going anywhere, unless you just mean that since she’s off DISCOVERY, you won’t have to watch her in her own show?
This is just one of many posts from that dude that creates a “WTF is he talking about” moment. LOL
I’m one of the few people here who actually write coherent sentences, so if you don’t know what I’m talking about, that’s not on me.
And you would be wrong. I didn’t miss anything. My post was very clear: she was the show’s dullest character and I’m glad she’s gone. Your smarm has failed you.
She’ll not gone. Didn’t you read the article?
Don’t any of you people know how to read? I know she’s not gone from the franchise. She IS gone from this show, for which I’m glad. That’s very clearly what I said.
While it’s not in the TrekMovie article, in Yeoh’s interview with TV Line she’s holding the door wide open to making a return visit to the 32nd century and Discovery at some point.
Yeoh says that she’s very attached to the cast and would welcome an opportunity to work with them again.
So far, TPTB are going all out to keep Yeoh happy, so I’m expecting another cross-over between Discovery and her new series down the line.
Then I hope it is as a flashback to CAPTAIN GEORGIOU, I’d certainly welcome that! Otoh, I hope I never need to discuss the insufferable Space Hitler ever again – at least in relation to Discovery!
It’s presumption on my part, but I really don’t think the weak acting criticism is valid. She’s a renowned actress who specializes in subtle characterization, grace, and physicality. She really gets into her roles. But she’s been asked to play a character whose arc was not well defined on the page, let alone screen, and recite technobabble and sarcastic dialogue that’s not a great fit for someone who doesn’t have a typical Western accent or intonation and whose actor doesn’t hail from Europe or America. I think criticism in this area needs to be tempered – East Asians don’t say sarcastic things the same way Western people do, and you try being a TV director who wants to micromanage intonation for a Special Guest Star who has been headlining movies since the mid-80s. She had so much fun as the villain and being part of a fun cast and crew family, but the writing is not justifying the arc she was sold and has been tasked to portray with passing one-liners and insults. Yeoh finally got a meatier role here to show what she’s built for, and it’s head and shoulders above the material the writers thought would be a good use of her gifts. It was a huge wasted effort.
Yeoh, like many actors, is not good enough to elevate beyond bad material. She also is better at some roles and bad for others. This role was just NOT a good role for her. (Much like Archer was a bad role for Bakula) It didn’t match her strengths at all. And when you add the bad writing to the fact that the part was not right for her, she is the one who looks bad.
BS, She was very fine as sarcastic Emperor contra Saru and others, specially in 1 and 2s. She was very good in scenes where they not order her talk only about I will kill you. It was interesting part with Kovich, Section in past and mission about care of Michael from her mother. But screenwriters just scew it up. She was good balance to so sweet and stupid behavior of crew and Federation. Scenes with dinner and this last with good bay was just stupid. I like her character almost 99% when she was at scene. She was one of few good things in this show and steals a lot of episodes and scenes.
And she show that can play in another way as Prime Georgiou. I still miss this character and want some series with her in old style of ST.
Congrtats, Res. You liked her. I’m happy for you as it seems you may be getting an entire show with her in the lead as Evil-Georgeau.
I felt that the only character who steals scenes is Reno. For me, and a lot of others I think, every time Georgeau showed up the result was a groan. I’ve seen Yeoh in other projects where she comes across much better. This is just a bad role for her. But glad you got something out of it.
OMG, she is from west, she grow up in England, she live a lot of time in France and in HK during Britain. She just spent last time not in America but in Chine and Malesia and Europe.
She’s from Malaysia. That’s as East as you can get. You don’t get crowned Miss Malaysia if you grew up in Bristol.
Acting criticism is valid because it’s my opinion. That’s how opinions work. I don’t care if she’s “a renowned actress.” She is dull on this show.
One thing that I noted in David Cronenberg’s Variety interview is that he was struck that the actors were not working with the directors when they do their AVR voice overs. He said that it was just the sound technicians who worked with him.
This explains to me some of the sound issues on Discovery. Actors with non-American accents or who are putting on accents likely need the support of a director, not just a technician to get the rhythm, pitch and intonation right. There should be a director involved.
I think so. It’s notable that the number of non-American/European actors cast to be regulars week to week is… two. Persis Khambata and Michelle Yeoh, with the former cast as an alien. I don’t think this is quite in the wheelhouse of all the directors, let alone everyone working with the ADR. It’s nuanced and delicate work.
I’m thinking Ian that, if not the supervising producer, there needs to be a regular secondary supervising producer for the ADR.
There seems to be a general issue with sound levels. Yes, ageing fans may be losing some frequencies (age-associated hearing loss is often at higher frequencies), but the audio complaints aren’t reserved for female characters.
Ronnie Rowe Jr has a very deep voice, and I’ve noted some comments that people don’t hear his dialogue. Shazad Latif’s American accent as Tyler was pretty mumbling, but if a director and a dialect coach weren’t involved in the ADR that could explain how it was let slide.
It’s clear that there is a significant part of the audience who struggle with “Burnham’s whisper”. Assuming that this is just sexism without considering that some of the audience can’t hear her well without adjustable headphones or hearing aids may be diverting the EP’s from figuring out the underlying problem.
Now that we know that ADR is done without the support of a director, one has to wonder whether it’s worth it to save director’s fees on letting the sound technicians and talent do it on their own.
Yep. It was a good and bad thing. Good that she’s gone from STD. Bad that there is still talk of her returning.
Agreed. A lot of boring swagger. She wouldn’t be missed by most fans for a reason.
You must be joking? No seriously, you must be joking? You know better than CBS who are signing her up for her own show. Wow, we are not worthy!
She came on screen I took notice. Most men and a lot of women would. She had (in my humble opinion) one of the best characters on the show.
Discovery is easily the weakest of the entire franchise but Yeoh could hold her own on any of the others. You are correct however about weak writing. However that’s a fault across the entire show.
The main character defies orders, gets demoted. We need a new number 1. OK let’s promote an ensign to the second highest rank on the ship! Akin to Wesley taking over from Will?
A reason not to take it so seriously. OK you didn’t think Yeoh worthy but really, is your life so dull you feel the need to defend your opinion right down the entire page?
Since we’re speculating, I’m parsing the facts that Yeoh was cleared to say as much as she did, and such a large round of interviews were set up for her, as evidence that an announcement about the S31 series is imminent.
My best guess is that the greenlighting announcement will come around the next time Baklish has to talk to investors after the quarter 4 financial results are in. ViacomCBS seems to want to include a next step tidbit on their major franchises along with their results on Pluto viewship and streaming subscriptions.
I found it a little strange how they kept it so vague on the Ready Room. I mean we know that the Section 31 show has been in development for a long time. Yet they would only suggest that maybe this wasn’t the last time we saw Georgiou. Like you said, ViacomCBS probably plans some official big announcement soon and they didn’t want to spill the beans yet.
The media strategy seems to be quite different post remerger.
It’s hard to know if that’s because the Paramount Comms staff have taken over or if it’s just that it took a while for the Star Trek global brand strategic comms team hired by CBS took a while to take charge.
But it does seem that at least for now promoting ViacomCBS to investors is the most important thing.
For example, it doesn’t seem like the launch of Discovery season one on CBS was well promoted. I have friends in the US who don’t use streaming and only realized Discovery was on broadcast when their DVR/PVR automatically recorded the show. (The DVR was programmed to record anything with Star Trek in the title.) If the plan was to draw in fans so they would become CBSAA subscribers, this was not well done.
I can also imagine that they want to actually have a release date or at least a start of production date when they officially announce the show. Obviously, COVID has messed up a lot of production schedules.
My bet is that S31 will start production right after Discovery S4 wraps in June as long as Yeoh’s schedule permits.
(Since the Avatar sequels carried on production during Covid, her schedule issues may be resolved.)
With CBS Stages now open in Mississauga with 6 soundstages, and commitments to space at Pinewood Studios Toronto as well, ViacomCBS is going to want to keep production ticking along.
To me it felt like they were keeping all options open. If the Section 31 show is shelved that doesn’t preclude Georgeau from showing up on the other shows.
Agreed — good observation. Can’t wait for the Section 31 series!
Can’t wait. She’s by far the most dynamic character on Discovery, and a Section 31 series would help to cover up the disappointment of the Lower Decks series misfire.
I can’t agree that Lower Decks was a misfire, but I’m much more interested now to see how Georgiou’s continuing path to redemption will play out in her own series.
We don’t agree on much (like I feel Georgeau was the worst part of a bad show) but I can agree that Lower Decks seems to have not struck as well as was hoped.
Good deal — we must be right then! :-)
The most dynamic?
I can’t be convinced the Georgiou spinoff is moving ahead after the “Ready Room” interview failed to acknowledge the new show at all, despite already being announced. So if they are going back into hiding with it for a 2nd reveal, that makes no sense.
But interestingly, her departure on Discovery doesn’t really setup a Section 31 related show. If Georgiou was sent back to the point where the two Universes were merged, that would place her somewhere around the time of First Contact with the Vulcans. Kovach even acknowledged this as the divergence point earlier this season, when the Terrans stormed the T’plana-hath and killed the Vulcans. That would place Georgiou somewhere in the 21st century and well before Starfleet and the Federation.
If they are going to move ahead with a totally different series than planned, I could understand their silence on it, but they can still acknowledge we will see Michelle again regardless. They don’t have to say “The Section 31 show”.
Why do people think the two universes were EVER one?
They NEVER were. What we saw on Enterprise was just how first contact went in the MU. That OBVIOUSLY was not a starting point.
That same episode made it very clear that that couldn’t have been the point of divergence. The theme song showed us events going differently centuries back, and Phlox talked about the differences in classic literature between the two universes. Kovich talked about First Contact, but he didn’t say anything about a divergent point. We now know that Terrans and Humans aren’t even biologically identical, so any divergent point would have to go back before the two species evolved. It is pretty clear that the two universes have always been separate.
ML31 your adamant interpretation that the two universes were never one just isn’t backed up. It’s also not how the physics of the Trek Multiverse works.
Now, I agree that based on Enterprise, the divergence had begun before First Contact.
The differences were arguably more subtle up until the aftermath of WW3 though. Otherwise, the history wouldn’t be so close between the two universes at that point. So, It’s possible that what Kovich is talking about in terms of a subatomic difference is something that was introduced relatively late, perhaps even in the Eugenics War.
So, early seeds of divergence that widened significantly shortly before or after First Contact would be a fair interpretation of what we have seen previously.
In terms of what the Guardian said he would do, I’m not entirely clear if he is sending her back before ANY divergence or just to a time when the divergence wouldn’t be fatal for Georgiou.
I’m not sure the differences were “subtle”. ENT’s title sequence implied the MU timeline had involved a lot more warfare on Earth than our timeline and this had already been going on for centuries before WW3. The Moon Landings were also shown to have occurred in different circumstances (note the flag).
MU human culture has been shown as full of Roman references too — the imperial titles, the Roman “gladius” sword on the flag, and so on. So the divergence between the two universes may involve this: In the MU, the Roman Empire never fell but eventually conquered the whole Earth. There are various plausible scenarios this could involve, eg. Julius Caesar surviving the assassination plot and going on to conquer Persia (as he’d intended to do) and ruling for decades, resulting in a much bigger and stronger Roman Empire by the time of Caesar’s natural death of old age; or Caesar being succeeded by a much more brutal emperor than Augustus; or events duplicating the PU timeline until “Rome fell”, at which point the MU Romans manage to prevent the total collapse by becoming even more brutal, ruthless and aggressively expansionist than they were in real life. That sort of stuff.
Obviously all of this depends on what Kurtzman & co have in mind. They could be thinking of a completely different explanation, assuming of course they’re considering any of this.
Actually it’s completely backed up. Not only by logic and how the MU has been presented but by canon as you and others mentioned from the Enterprise MU episodes. There is ZERO evidence the two were ever the same. The mirror universe is opposite of us. It did not “evolve” that way from us at some point for some reason. It is 180 from and always has been. In the MU good people are bad and bad people are good. At least among humans. When Trek has had alternate events it had always been because the timeline diverged from some event. Nero coming back, for example. Or Janeway’s desire to change things in Endgame. Those are NOT alternate universes. The other time Trek dove into alternate universes was with Lazerus in The Alternative Factor. Those two never diverged from each other either. They were separate and always have been. Just like the MU. The idea that the MU HAD to have diverged at some point makes ZERO sense. Just the fact that the mirror versions of us are opposite is enough evidence of that.
Yeah I never once thought they were the same universe at any point. I always thought the MU and PU have been completely separate from the beginning, In fact this is the first time I have ever heard this theory they were the same at some point.
But I think this is the issue you mentioned, there seems to be a confusion between alternate universes and alternate timelines. I’m not saying TG47 has this issue but I notice a lot of other fans do and think they are both the same thing when that’s not true. It’s also why there has been so much confusion with the Kelvin universe for over a decade now
“Somebody’s gotta go back and get a sh*tload of dimes!”
One of the best lines from “Blazing Saddles”. Suh-weet!!
Yeah… It was one of the best lines. Right up there with “Where are the white women at?”
ML31, I was an usher at the Uptown Theatre in Toronto when that movie ran for an entire year (1973-4). I saw it 150 times. I know every line in my sleep!
It’s in my collection and have seen it plenty of times as well. Not 150, though! Maybe one day… ;)
ML31, it’s good to have goals in life! :-)
I have not seen that movie in ages! I remember watching it on TV the first time with my grandmother and brother in the early 80s. When you’re a young black kid at the time, it seemed crazy it ever got made lol. I love it too. Haven’t watched it 150 times or anything but now that you guys are talking about it, I want to see it again. Hopefully its on one of the 30 streaming sites I’m subscribed to. If not, it’s pretty easy to rent for a few dollars these days.
Tiger2, best to rent it, that way you see the uncut version. Best to see all the raunchy jokes in all their glory!
Speaking of which, Mel Brooks (in an interview) said he agonized over one particular scene in the movie. He wasn’t sure if audiences would accept it (at the time). Thankfully, he left it in.
It’s the scene where the outlaws attack Rock Ridge and while one of the bad guys holds the old woman by the arms, the other baddie keeps punching her in the stomach while she looks at the camera and asks “have you ever seen such violence?”
Original title was Tex X. Which the studio didn’t like. Then they went with Black Bart. Which the studio was also not high on. There were a number of great stories behind the scenes. For example, Brook ran into John Wayne at the studio and told him about the movie and (he claimed he honestly didn’t think he would do it) asked him if he was interested in the Waco Kid. The part was originally written to be an OLD gunslinger. Wayne asked for the script. The next day Wayne told Brooks “This is the funniest thing I’ve read. But John Wayne can’t do this movie. But I’ll be first in line to see it!”
Brooks also wanted Richard Pryor for the Bart role. But the studio nixed that, too. They felt his act at the time was too dirty and didn’t want him leading even an R rated movie. But Brooks liked him and asked him to help him with the script. Turns out Pryor wrote the bulk of the Jewish jokes!
It’s crazy how everyone involved – the producers, the writers and even the actress – live in a hermetically sealed bubble regarding this character, how controversial, even hated she is in fandom (the character, not the actress)! And none of the interviewers is ever going to ask the producers or writers (the actress is not at fault) a tough question if she could have been better written or even if it was a mistake by the previous showrunners to kill off the good version of her, since that would endanger their beneficial relationship with TPTB. It reminds me how the symbiotic relationship of MSM with the Establishment prevents them from ever truly be free and independent. It is (dare I say it) “systemic” ;)
They’re not the ones living in a bubble, judging from your past comments
Hard not to make everything an ad hominem huh? How many posters not named A34 have expressed their love for this character? And you’d be very careful to side with fascist genocidal dictators ;)
We get it. You hate the character, you think you speak for everyone, you hate anyone who disagrees with you. Enough already.
I love Emperor Georgiou. I can’t wait to see her on the S31 show.
Noted. That brings the count to 2 :P
I’m pretty sure the count is much higher than two.
I think there is one other who said such things. Which makes it 3.
Can give you link to theirs comments but you must know my language.
Well for me you are just 1 and maybe 2 person who don’t like her. Count only 2, in your not so fine way of discredit who has other opinion.
I’m only talking about this board. I’m sure she has her fans out there where she is more popular.
Thats not the point. And I’m not questioning your right to like the character. I’m questioning TPTB ignoring how controversial and divisive the character is in fandom and claiming everyone loves her (equating actress and character), which is obviously not the case.
Count it to 30 in my country.
Well count me out of this discussion now since you guys want to turn this into a p!ssing match very divorced from the original point – which is that TPTB are thoroughly ignoring one perception of the character – and it’s not yours!
She is controversial for sure. Not sure she is hated. My understanding from reading fans’ comments is that people love to hate Georgiou when she is written well. People actually seemed to be very ambivalent about her. When she got a good episode, people loved her. When she was written poorly – in way too many episodes – people turned around and just wanted her to disappear.
Would you mind listing which are her “good episodes” before this two parter, which was very much in the time-honored Discovery tradition of only fleshing out a Non-Burnham character in the very episode they are departing, one way or another?
The intentions were laid bare in Terra Firma – she has been on a redemption arc, she was conditioned to do what she did, she has seen the light and wants to change and has changed. That’s Star Trek, so I for one think we can move on from things like insinuating the show or fans who are rooting for Georgiou are akin to Nazi apologists – they were explicit about the redemption arc.
That said, the execution did not live up to the arc Terra Firma insisted we missed, so a bubble certainly exists – they think they pulled it off whereas I think they bungled it for so long the declarative change was unearned, even if it is now set in stone. Whether a spin off show or mini series etc can just start fresh with Georgiou being so emphatically declared “changed for the better!” despite our knowing how much they bungled the setup… well, we shall see.
It’s not the first time they’ve bungled something. They bungled Lorca in season 1. They bungled the concept of faith and science in season 2. They bungled the Georgeau “redemption” (which being from the MU ought not be possible) in season 3. They bungled the AI thing in Picard. They bungled the comedy aspect in Lower Decks. Everything Star Trek that Secret Hideout has touched has been bungled.
I mostly agree, apart from MU characters being irredeemable, I don’t think that’s in keeping with Star Trek idealism at all. And I was fine with most of the comedy in LD. But I do not think Kurtzman is the right overlord for Trek.
The problem is for us they are being redeemed but for them it is a fall to darkness.
One also wonders… If a MU version of starts to see that brutality is not the way, does that mean the prime version of the same person then becomes more open to the idea of brutality being the better way to get things done? It is a MIRROR afterall…
There’s no reason redemption in the mirror universe wouldn’t be possible. Spock proved that.
I also dont think that, but that’s not the argument here. The point was that a fascist dictator responsible for multiple genodices should not have an “arc of redemption”, other than a death sacrifice. And that’s very much in the tradition of Star Trek! Remember Kodos?
They’ve bungled nothing… apart from the fact that they’ve been trying to be both Star Ttrek and a visual GoT at times. I liked the Lorca reveal, I loved the Red Angel plot twists, I can accept Georgiou’s a bit superficial redemption arc. The AI thing in PIC was a bit of a strech but exciting and the lack of an all-too agressive comedy aspect in LD is the ONLY reason this show is even acceptable…
Apart from some graphic missteps into adult territory, NuTrek is top-notch and almost too good to be true. The TV-MA visuals I absolutely dislike but I have to live with it…
This is subjective. And it is fair for you to see it that way. This is not to belittle your take but that viewpoint is in the minority. Not to worry. My feelings towards The Voyage Home are in the minority as well. So I can relate.
“they think they pulled it off whereas I think they bungled it for so long the declarative change was unearned, even if it is now set in stone.”
We certainly agree on this point. The other one, better leave it for another day – that’s a bottomless pit ;)
I’m not “in love” with a fascist dictator and mass murderer, but I am “in love” with the idea that even such a person deserves a second chance. This is what Star Trek is about: making even the most savage aliens and people your friends – your mortal enemies your alliies. It wasn’t her fault which universe she was born into. She has made the best of it and while her redemption arc may not be entirely satisfying to some, the basic idea is something I can approve of.
The Terran Empire was around in Archer’s time, they even screwed up their version of First Contact. You cannot blame this on Georgiou. She followed many Emperors including Mirror Sato. Overcoming this darkness and growing beyond that background is a major achievement that goes far beyond anything the characters born into a relatively benevolent timeline had to go through. And that is fascinating. I’m not even a big fan of Michelle Yeoh as I consider her acting wooden and over-the-top but I like the path she has embarked on.
Star Trek has always been about that. Turning enemies into friends: Chekov and Sulu harking back to the Cold War and WWII, Worf, Quark, Seven… and now a MU character. This IS STAR TREK! You make it look like a moral downfall on the writers’ part which it isn’t. They are simply doing what Star Trek has done for over 50 years. Right, Chekov, Sulu, Worf weren’t personally responsible for any war crimes, but they didn’t grow up in darkness. Seven was forced to be part of that machine and redeemed. Quark has alwyys been a shady character but amiable at the same time. So was Garak.
You make it look like they lost track of their moral compass because you don’t get the basic message: and that isn’t “war crimes are fine” but “everyone deserves a second or third chance”! That said, I hope she’ll truly become good and likable like Xena and not remain a broken anti-hero like John Wick…
That’s my major quibble I have with Section 31. I don’t want it to be too brutal, too bloody, too John Wick-ish. But that’s an issue I have with all NuTrek to a certain degree…
But she’s not being redeemed. From her point of view she is falling from grace. For her, her story is a tragedy. This group of writers do not seem to understand the entire concept of the MU.
Then you’ve missed lots of monologue and dialogue in TF-Part 2! It’s almost been too kitchy but therefore hard to overlook that she wants to be a better person and even wants to change Michael and the MU… It’s the tragedy that she failed…
Whatever was said in that episode undermines everything the MU had set up before. The one and only one way around this is that Georgeau and where she is from is not THE mirror universe. Just an ALTERNATE one. In that event, a redemption could be possible. But still given what they have shown us makes it hard to buy. But possible none the less.
Thanks for this Garth Lorca. I think we’re pretty much thinking the same way on this.
I’d add that I think that the writers have gone one step further – they have acknowledged that you can’t fundamentally redeem or transform someone who is the product of a horrific and traumatic environment without taking them out of the environment for a significant time.
MU Georgiou was out of the MU for more than a year, and lived through other life shaping experiences in the PU. That’s much more than a quick intervention or moment of epiphany of the type Trek is well known for.
Even though it sounds like MU Georgiou was less of an appalling tyrant and mass murderer than her propaganda portrayed, as she said to Kovich, you can’t blame her evil on a mere physical difference. She’s changed but she’s still changing.
Crucially, she saw how the child she loved in the MU was able to be a good person in the PU (albeit with the same authority issues and obstinate belief that she is always right) because she was raised with love, care and positive values. And when the Guardian sent her back, she was confronted with the fact that there was no way to change the ending and reform MU Burnham within the MU environment.
So, I’m thinking that it will be important to see what kind of characters will be in the ensemble that supports and works with Georgiou in her new S31 missions.
Will she be on her own or will others be coming with her?
Will they also be broken souls on a redemption arc or will some of them be anchors of true PU values to help keep her anchored?
I think whether she loved Michael or not is as relevant to her billions of victims as is Hitler’s love for his dog, Blondie, to six million dead Jews. Tree and forest ;)
“She has made the best of it and while her redemption arc may not be entirely satisfying to some, the basic idea is something I can approve of”
I think you are confusing peaceful co-existence with redemption, and idealism with naiveté. So I do not think at all this is what Star Trek is about. The DS9 writers explicitly stated they saw Dukat (who is hardly as bad as Space Hitler) beyond redemption and never wanted to leave any doubt about that in the perception of the show and the fate of the character. Since DS9 is the gold standard of Trek for you guys, there you have it!
Very hard to disagree with any of that.
Although I still think prime Georgeau can return. All they have to say is she got away. They SAID they ate her just to save face but in reality she got away. It’s really easier than bringing Culber back. Which I’m still convinced is NOT Culber.
Georgiou f… Why are you so rude?
Forgive me… Please enlighten me and explain how my comment was rude in any way.
The lack of actually *seeing* the fate of Prime Georgiou certainly raised my attention.
And therein lies the open door through which we can easily bring back prime Georgeau.
Of course my concern is that if MU Georgeau is changing toward our way then it should follow that an alive version of prime Georgeau would change towards their way. That is the very nature of the MU. Something Secret Hideout Trek writers have no clue about. They seem to think they are cleverer than they are. Talk about hubris!
Well, didn’t Kirk convince Mirror Spock to be less evil? I don’t remember that this resulted in Prime-Spock suddenly going evil. So it seems like your interpretation wasn’t shared by the original writers either.
The Vulcans did not seem to be all that different in the MU. It was pretty much only the humans who were presented as opposites. The fact that Spock was not as brutal and that he could be more easily reasoned with strongly suggests this. It also seemed to be the case when DS9 went there, too.
Well my fandom very like Emperor and her charater but don’t like capitain from 1s. I like both but as like my fandom don’t like when Emperor babling again and again like kid or grumpy granda I kill you, I kill you. I like and my fandom when she told: diplomacy is so boring or arguing with Saru in secon episode or arguing with Michael at Kronos. And I can see in internet that fans of Emperor is more than persons who don’t like her. Hejt? Not truth. Maybe only there where are hejters oF DSC at all like red letters or grin etc.
Personally I thought killing off Captain Georgiou was a huge mistake, maybe just one of the reasons why Fuller left OR was fired from the show?
I’m more fascinated by Guardian Carl at this point.
I find it kind of weird they didn’t talk about the crossovers from DS9…cause I mean ..those happened right?
My excitement level was high when I heard that Michelle Yeoh was going to be part of ST Discovery way back in 2017. Sadly, the first 6-7 episodes were not exactly inspiring and I was pretty much dismayed that the original showrunners killed off Captain Georgiou in the two part pilot. Discovery has slowly, but consistently improved after those first few months and it seems to have finally found its place in S3.
I have to admit, even though I was willing to give it a chance, I wasn’t exactly enthralled with the Section 31 show concept when I first heard it. IMO the primary thing going for it was having Yeoh as the lead, but I was not that excited with the show revolving around Section 31.
Then the writers fast forwarded the Discovery into the 32nd century – probably the best move they could make. All of a sudden, all the previous opinions that we fans developed no longer were set in stone, simply because the Discovery was no longer shackled by the concepts founded by the previous shows. In other words, a lot of things happen in eight or nine hundred years.
And now we know, the Federation has changed and Section 31 is probably not exactly what we saw in Enterprise and DS9. Neither is the mirror universe that we saw in DS9 and TOS, the temporal cold war we heard about in Enterprise and its good to see the Guardian of Forever is more than just a stone temporal device on some distant planet.
Surprisingly, I am now actually intrigued by the potential of a Section 31 show – and that’s a far cry from where I was a year ago. Also excited to see Michelle Yeoh seems happy being a key part of future Star Trek.
So let’s see what they can come up with!!
Agreed. I wasn’t excited either when we first heard about Section 31 being an option. I’m still skeptical if it isn’t an all-out time travel show.
My major issue is with the current level of explicit violence possible on streaming TV. Against that backdrop, a secret agent show set in the Trek universe has guts and brains written all over it. We’ve gotten our “fair” share of that on DSC and PIC, even LD, so it wouldn’t be a surprise if a spy fy action show goes even way further on these visuals and we’d be getting headshots, disintegrating bodies, explicite stabbing, throat cutting and brain splattering on a weekly basis.
This is why I think a time travel show could be little bit more all-age friendly than a mere spy fy action series. Although history has been pretty bloody as well…
I don’t share your enthusiasm.
Maybe I should say I am cautiously optimistic now where I was previously skeptical, but I am generally a glass half full kind of person. We shall see, but at least there is a lot more potential than I previously gave it.
DeanH, you’ve precisely summarized my view on the S31 series in development.
I hope TPTB have enough of a sampling of the diversity of fan views from this and other boards to give the series a chance (with more action and adventure but not so much indulgence in gore).
“I hope TPTB have enough of a sampling of the diversity of fan views from this and other boards to give the series a chance
Given that Kurtman & Co. never even acknowledge that the character is controversial, in the same way Kurtzman acknowledged Discovery does not fit into canon and everything will work out in the end, I have to doubt that they give a damn, no matter how much “sampling’ they have!
That’s not the kind of diversity TBTB currently running Trek like.
Teehee ML31! As I’ve stated I have come to the conclusion that Discovery, and Kurtzman Trek on the whole actually, can only be saved and redeemed (for us anyway) if the Colonel commits to hiring a more diverse set of writers (beyond the skin-deep kind) and stops micro-managing them.
SNW is the ideal vessel for that, much like the Short Treks, so that will be the true lithmus test if he wants to keep wearing his ideological blinders ans expand beyond his core base (to borrow a term from another field).
It’s a sad day when the return of Luke Skywalker thrilled and excited me a million times more than the return of the Guardian of Forever.
Even more horrifying to realize I’m way more looking forward to The Book of Boba (the new Mandalorian spinoff announced yesterday) than anything with Phillipa “Space Hitler” Georgiou.
I was one of those guys in the 90s that endlessly mocked Star Wars and hailed Star Trek as naturally the best.
Star Trek needs to find its Favreau/Filoni. JJ made a mess of Star Wars and now his buddy Kurtzman is making a mess of Star Trek.
I’ve always loved both franchises and I’m glad both are thrieving with new streaming shows made by the dozen. JJ sort of messed up both franchises by his second outing in each universe in which he blatantly brough back the most famous villains without any sense, and I disliked the out-of-thin-air, copy-paste superfleets in both universes (Sith, Romulan, Riker), but apart from that, both worlds are fine for now…
Star Wars is doing better because of Disney to a certain extent. Both Franchises suffered a bit but I enjoy both.
No it is not. Both are in a lot way terrible.
I liked THE LAST JEDI and the risks they were willing to take with the characters, although there wasn’t much point to Rose. THE RISE OF SKYWALKER was a horrible mishmash of tangents and irrationality and…Lord knows what. And frankly, THE FORCE AWAKENS wasn’t a lot better; it was high on the nostalgia factor, but in many ways was a remake of the original. The Solo movie wasn’t much better. I’ve never enjoyed Star Wars anywhere near as much as Star Trek, but whatever your complaints about DISCOVERY, they pale in comparison to the disappointment of the recent movies.
We agree quite a bit on the Star Wars situation. I felt TFA while kinda neat to watch was essentially a remake of ANH. I did like TLJ because of the risks it took which in my mind worked out. Was it perfect? No. There were things in it that just didn’t work. But overall I felt it decently done. And TROS was a steaming hot pile of garbage mainly because JJ felt they had to “fix” what they did in TLJ. That never works. Just look at Picard when they decided they wanted to “fix” Data’s demise in NEM. I did enjoy Rogue 1, however. And The Mandalorian is quite entertaining. So when the franchise is in the right hands it can work. I think Trek needs to be in better hands. For all of Kennedy’s faults, apart from bringing back JJ for TROS she is letting different people work the different SW projects. Something Kurtzman needs to be doing with his Trek stuff.
Luke Skywalker his return was reasonable. Star Wars is back. Favreau and Filoni saved Star Wars. Star Trek needs one soon enough.
No way. It is ridiculous that you so price this stuff like game with guests, mario stuff – Mando princess is in another castle, pretty pictures, 0 plot. a lot of filler and commercial of toys and BY. In comparison with DSC, even with all erros and low quality not like old ST, DSC is a lot better with scenarios and story than Mando. Mando is soooo 2D with this.
Can I have those words back that you took out of my mouth…? ;)
(Sigh) This is so typical of 2020. The year just has to get even more zingers in there to make things worse. Wonder what other surprises it has in store for us before the 31st…
Ah. So 2020 has gone great for you then? You are mighty fortunate.
Never cared about her. She is the most unlikable character in Star Trek history. Thank God she is gone!
No she is not. A lot of ppl hate now not only Burnham but Tilly and Saru too. Emperor is fine with pick them by stick. You all live only in your anglosas world, right?
Oh, go away.
No one said anything even remotely bigoted, so accusing someone of “anglosass” is uncalled for.
Really? More than Neelix? More than Wesley?
Good call on Wesely. It’s really neck and neck for who is worse. I honestly cannot decide. I’ll have to dwell on that one for a while.
My vote would be for Dr. Pulaski.
I recall not liking her when I first watched the show. But on my recent rewatch I changed my mind. I found myself wishing she was the Dr instead of Crusher. Interesting what a few decades can to do one’s outlook.
I hope there will be soon an announcement of the Section 31 series! I am really looking forward to this as another completly new take on Trek and applaud every additional Trek! :-) I LOVED the Guardian of forever sequence – goosebumps everywhere. I was hoping for its return since my childhood more than 30 years ago when I first saw “city”. I hope that will be used again in Trek.
You have been hoping for the return of the Guardian of Forever for over 30 years, and you were excited by the garbage use of the Guardian in this episode?
If they were going to use the Guardian, they could have at least held true to what the Guardian was in TOS. They could have used any made-up character to bring Georgiou into the fake mirror universe on some journey of self-discovery. Instead, they corrupted the Guardian character for some cheap “wow” moment.
I 2nd this. They absolutely could have come up with some other way to move her on. Instead, they were lazy and went with cheap fan service that really made little sense for how the thing had been presented in the past or for the story they were writing. Had they come up with something original at least they could have made up their own rules.
Michelle Yeoh is an excellent actress, but the character is horrible as a long-term addition to the franchise. She would have been great playing an Emperor that died during season one. The idea of taking a slave master, genocidal, murderer, and making her some type of hero is crazy. There is nothing that can redeem a person who has committed the kids of atrocities that Georgiou has committed. She’s like a super-sized Adolph Hitler. We are supports to take a liking to the character because she has some bizarre emotional attachment to her mirror “daughter?”
I think not.
And again they set themselves up for nothing but stupidity. If she does go back to the 23rd century, she knows about the burn and certainly wouldn’t keep that a secret. That will change everything going forward. Oh, maybe she’ll keep it a secret like everyone did after season 2 (what a joke!). Just more of KurtzmanTrek.
And by the way, I hate hate hate the use of the GoF. Its words were exactly “I was made to offer the past in this manner… I cannot change!” READ “I CANNOT CHANGE!!!” Well, that is until Kurtzman and the team get a hold of it.
David Moss — “I cannot change.”
One answer from one Guardian to one captain in one short moment of time. And so you’re convinced that this is immutable?
I’m won’t opine further on how inflexible and boxed-in your thinking seems to be when TOS in general and Kirk in particular were all about finding the work around, trick, hook, or exception that allowed a seemingly unsolvable situation to be solved.
Instead I would point out:
– not being able to change in one minute is very different than changing over a millennium
– not being able to change on a demand from some random explorer is different than self-directed change following recognition that the portal was abused in the Temporal Cold War
– the Guardian speaks in riddles so even what may seem to be factual, unequivocal statements are suspect, or at least not likely to be without an exception or alternative interpretation
– we’re still not entirely sure this is the same GoF since they say “I am A Guardian of Forever” rather than THE Guardian of Forever.
As per my reply to Dean below, but I’ll add a couple of other points.
Thanks for your thoughts. Happy Holiday.
The guardian already admitted that it had been there for a VERY VERY long time. And it hadn’t changed yet. So no reason to think another 900 years would do anything.
The only excuse is the vague responses the thing gave. Sadly it does open up some doors for lazy writers to grab.
All I think this can show us is that the writers on discovery do not know as much as they think they do… And that they can change things to get around pesky things like changing established facts that do not need altering. But that’s just what I think. What do I know…? ;)
Are you machine or being? – I am neither and both! Personally I for one don’t preclude the possibility that things can change, especially since we have no idea what the Guardian even is. For now I am cautiously optimistic about the show – time will tell if that is warranted. Btw even though I may disagree, I understand that many want things to remain exactly the same as it was in back in the 1960s.
Hey… I’m not trying to keep the 60s alive, and I know things need to evolve. My point is they need to evolve along with a logical (pardon the word) path in order to correctly worldbuild.
There was no need for the GoF in this story. It could have been done without having to try and alter something so well known. I would have absolutely accepted a new being with powers – God knows we’ve accepted Q, the Metrons, and a dozen others.
And you also want things to make sense. I can point out a lot of things but the one I’ll talk about is Pike and crew being sworn to never talk about Discovery after thousands of people had already seen it, another spore-drive ship was destroyed, etc. That segues into if Georgio is returned to the past, which likely she will be, she will know about the dilithium issues and certainly won’t keep them secret. The future is again changed from that moment.
Just think about how much better this show, or any show could be with just some slight adjustments to create a tighter and more logical world. It wouldn’t hurt the show but would lessen the critics.
Appreciate your opinions. Happy holidays.
They changed how the Guardian works way back in TAS.
LOL… I personally don’t count that.
I thought it was used in that episode pretty much the same way it was in TCOTEOF.
It was, except for that terrible whiny voice.
In TAS Yesteryear, Spock asked the Guardian to open the portal at a specific time and place.
Yeah. They were able to ask the Guardian to send them to specific points. Spock asked it to send him to Vulcan on a specific date, and Kirk was able to visit a specific era in Orion history before that.
That’s right. I believe he did.
Well I’m sure someone could do some mental gymnastics to come up with a reason why it was possible in that instance.
Does the use of Guardian of Forever mean that there’s no more problems with Harlan Ellison (estate, given his death)? I seem to recall that no-one wanted to touch any component of the ‘City on the edge…’ due to Harlan’s position against how his work on ST has been used.
In my opinion TF Part 2 just show us about what section 31 will be about.
Georgiu just became a GOF agent, meaning she will have to travel through time, fixing all the temporal changes caused by the temporal cold war even more.
Sounds like a Star Trek version of Legends of Tomorrow. I know they are trying different genres but I just don’t see that as something to even try.
Think about how many different standard stories and tropes Star Trek has played with across the various series.
If they think it’s a viable niche, why wouldn’t they try it?
That doesn’t really fit the bill for a Section 31 show. Plus, Carl basically said that he was sending Georgiou to another time to live her life. He didn’t make it sound like he planned to ever work with her again. And Georgiou still can’t go too far into the future or she’ll die.
My speculation is that they have been quiet about the ‘section 31’ show (particularly noticeable radio silence regarding it on that Ready Room interview) because the idea for the show has evolved from when it was initially announced and they are wanting to ‘relaunch’ it in a sense now.
The Guardian of Forever mentioned that he was sending Georgiou back to a time when the Prime and Mirror universes were ‘still aligned’. By First Contact day in 2063, the two universes had already split considerably – evidenced by First Contact (Prime) and In A Mirror, Darkly (Mirror). What if The Guardian sends her back to 2020? Each new Star Trek show is presenting a very different tone, time and themes. We have never had a ‘contemporary’ Star Trek show. What would that even look like? It intrigues me.
I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that we are living in the Mirror universe, not the Prime. Perhaps the ‘enlightened’ Georgiou appearing in 2020 is the event that creates the two timelines, and it is Georgiou’s knowledge of the Federation in the Prime universe future that actually creates the Prime universe? All this timey-whimey stuff hurts my head.
The universes were already different by 2020. The Enterprise theme song showed us the alternative moon landing, and Mirror Phlox mentioned some of the classics of literature being different. Plus Kovich explained that Terrans are different at a biological level, which we already knew because of their vulnerability to light. That means that the universes were different before humans and Terrans even evolved.
I think what Carl meant was that he was sending Georgiou back to a time before the two universes drifted so far apart. Kovich mentioned that the two universes have been further apart for 500 years, so Georgiou will probably be working with S31 some time in between the 22nd and 27th centuries.
The two universes were NEVER the same. There was no divergence. They were ALWAYS separate.
ML31, we understand that you hold that view firmly, but it’s not been consistent with how the Trek multiverse has been portrayed since at least the 90s.
Expressing your view firmly, without supporting evidence, won’t make it so.
I think the evidence that I provided backs up ML31’s views. If their was a divergent point, then it was millions of years ago. Everything we’ve seen of the mirror universe suggests that the two worlds have always been different.
Incorrect. There is tons of evidence to show this is the case. I thought it pretty darn obvious and didn’t need to even get said. Honestly I’m surprised some have even suggested there was a divergence point for the MU from the PU. There is absolutely no evidence of it. Not in any instance the MU has been presented.
And I have mentioned to you why this is and even you yourself mentioned there is evidence there was no divergence. And then you backed off it.
It’s one thing to disagree but to disagree without saying why and on top of that giving reasons your own disagreement is wrong comes across a little flighty.
If you’re talking about the fact that every different timestream in Trek’s multiverse has a different quantum resonance signature, that doesn’t mean that they were always separate. We saw that in both TNG Parallels and several Voyager episodes.
The light difference does suggest a deeper/earlier difference in basic physics I agree, but how and when the universes diverged in history and development significantly is the question. The parallels are profound between the MU and PU. Their histories seemed linked at key events.
The light thing was just a dumb thing STD came up with to help spot MU’ers but then, since Evil Georgeau does not seem to be affected by it at all they seem to have dropped it.
The universes are supposed to be parallel. That is mirror part of a MIRROR universe. In fact, like Tiger, this is the first I’ve heard of anyone suggesting one is an offshoot of the other.
As a resident of California, I can say that production starting in January for Star Trek: Picard should not be considered as set in stone. We are in crisis here with COVID-19, especially the Southland where filming takes place. They have run out of ICU beds.
Any filming that takes place has a better shot if it is in Canada, where they have contained COVID-19.
Well, Ontario is back in lockdown and concerned about ICU beds, but it still has a lower number of cases per capita than any US State with the exception of Hawaii.
So, film and television production is permitted to continue. I wonder if the Discovery cast will take the scheduled holiday hiatus or just carry on.
CA’s governor in his infinite wisdom has claimed TV and movie production to be “essential” business. And is allowed to continue while all the small business wither and die.
Seems the Premier of Ontario has a similar definition, but there are definitely tight protocols in place.
However, the film and television industry have taken on responsibility for infection control in a way that many small businesses cannot, especially public facing ones.
It would be quite fun to set the Section 31 show in the 2360s and expand on that era in a different way.
Michelle Yeoh is one of my favourite actors. I can’t wait to see what she does next.