[Episode review starts at 18:13]
Tony and Laurie hypothesize about John de Lancie’s “You are going to be seeing more of me” comment, discuss Mary Wiseman and the ridiculousness of body-shaming, and Tony asks Doug Jones directly about shipping Saru and T’Rina. Then they dig into their review of Star Trek: Discovery‘s “Su’Kal,” which they both liked a great deal.
Links to topics discussed in the pod
John de Lancie Hints He May Return As Q To Star Trek, Again
Mary Wiseman Talks Curvy Killy On ‘Star Trek: Discovery’; Kate Mulgrew Says Ignore The Haters
Michelle Yeoh On Georgiou’s Star Trek Future; Hints At Section 31 Series
Other mentions:
Spock is “emotionally compromised” in 2009’s Star Trek
‘Star Trek Keeps Me Inspired’: Kenneth Mitchell on Living With ALS, Lower Decks, and his Return to Discovery at SyFy Wire
Bill Irwin as Mr. Noodle on Sesame Street
Bonus clip: Bill Irwin breakdancing on Sesame Street (not discussed, but fun!)
Trekbits:
Tony: J. J. Lendl’s posters on Twitter and Shade’s Ryn artwork
Laurie: The Imagination Desk podcast with Anne Cofell Saunders
Let us know what you think of the episode in the comments, and post your suggestions for topics we should cover when Discovery‘s third season ends. (We particularly appreciated last week’s discussions!)
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Merry Christmas Tony and Laurie. Thanks for all the work you put into the podcast! This cause for the Burn seemed to come out of left field for me…
Merry Christmas! I think (hope) they’re going to dig into it more in next episode.
Well, I’ll have to give this a B+. The episode was good but the explanation for the Burn was still a major disappointment. I’m glad The Burn wasn’t caused by a mad scientist or two-dimensional villain with unconvincing motives like so often in the movies, but this still isn’t a great non-villain like V’Ger or the Whale Probe… Maybe there is more to that story.
However, you’ve asked why Su’Kal didn’t destroy the entire dilithium planet with his tantric outbursts. I think this can be easily answered. He doesn’t destroy dilithium at all, he just renders it inert. On starships the dilithium is pivotal to the matter-antimatter reaction so when it fails, the ships go boom. On the planet there is no active warp core so he temporarily changing the dilithium structure wouldn’t have any destructive effect.
The Kelp Monster, the entire episode, was very reminiscent of dark fairy tales like “A Monster Calls”. I think that the triggering moment for The Burn will either be related to the death of his mother or his Vahar’ai under these circumstances.
Having lost my own mother this year, I’d rather have him cause the Burn through a mourning outburst than a coming of age process.
I still don’t like Osyraa and the Emerald Chain to be the main villain. I was hoping for them to be a mere distractor from the real villain or threat, just like Crimson Dawn or those other gangsters on Star Wars.
I’m 99% sure Michael won’t take command in Season 4. I think that will happen in the very final scene of the series, just like Clark becoming Superman in Smallville or Bruce becoming Batman in Gotham. The very idea of DSC is that this show isn’t centered around the Captain, so if Michael becomes the Captain, they’d be flushing this idea down the galactic toilet. Saru will be replaced as the annual captain, I guess by someone from the 32nd Century…
Well, thinking about it again, I once again have to stress that this only makes sense when the Dilithium is only temporarily rendered inert. It would have reverted back some time later but for the unlucky starships it was too late…
This is where the two-part backstory of the Burn kicks in. The writers made abundantly clear that there had already been a Dilithium shortage prior to the Burn, so this is why there is so little left of it now.
The active starship were all destroyed when hit by Su’Kal’s outburst and there was hardly any Dilithium to replace them because there had been too little even before. That shortage, that scarcity has also triggered the Kelpiens’ mission to the Verubin Nebula. That may be the underlying message I have been missing: if you have to use desperate means to resupply your energy sources, it’s not a good thing: fracking, I’m talking to you!
I don’t think the phrase “tantric outbursts” means what you think it means… :)
Thank you. So now I have learned that tantric is not the adjective of tantrum :-) After some research, I can save that phrase. Forget about Red Tantra, which would only apply if Su’Kal went through some sort of Kelpien Pon Farr. But there is White Tantra and Black Tantra, which on first glance come rather close to Light and Dark Side of the Force.
Now I believe that such esotherics are all conntected. The Force, the Myceleal Network, Magic, Tantra, you name it. If that dilithium planet has turned Su’Kal into an untrained Force user and if the Force is untamed Tantra, so it still can be a tantric outburst.
Ha! Well, Gene Roddenberry would be into it, probably, so there’s that.
“I think that the triggering moment for The Burn will either be related to the death of his mother or his Vahar’ai under these circumstances.” Agree!
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! Loved the episode, especially where Burnham pretended to be a hologram. My only issue with this episode was the reveal of what caused the burn and how they revealed it. It just seemed a little too easy and simple. In older Trek, take TMP for example, when they get to the heart of V’Ger you find out that it’s Voyager 6. They take a couple beats and think about it. This also allows the audience to catch up to the writers.
In DISCO very big reveals happen so fast. Season 1, here’s a bomb that’ll blow up the planet. Season 2, you have to go back in time to go forward. Season 3, the kid did it.
This thing that Burnham has been searching for for over a year is just revealed in a matter of 5-10 seconds. IMHO, these reveals deserve more. Maybe we will get more over the next two episodes. But this reveal was underwhelming to me so far.
Merry Christmas and happy holidays! The thing is, the reveal wasn’t really that quick… it’s taken us weeks to get there even since they figured out its origin point. Plus there’s more to come. I think it wasn’t quick so much as SIMPLE, which I’m hoping they will elaborate on in the next episode.
Agreed. Simple is the best term.
I’m with you Laurie, I think that there is more to unpack about how Su’Kal interacted with his physical environment including the ship, the dilithium and subspace.
Here are some thoughts towards some speculation:
The welcoming committee seemed also to be a security feature.
We also heard (I think) that another rescue ship tried and failed to enter the nursery before the Burn at some point.
A dilithium nursery planet was a strategic asset and the child was precious.
Is it possible that the Burn was originally part of a defence system to ensure the child and the dilithium did not fall into enemy hands?
The ease at which the Chain captured the Discovery makes me wonder if that piece of their tech isn’t as harmless as Book thought. Seems like it might have installed a backdoor or something.
Regarding off-screen character development, that seems to be a long-running issue with the show where they’ll ignore a character an then suddenly introduce developments the moment they need something. Now, off-screen development can work well, but it needs to progress in a believable way. I like how it was used in the Parahumans online serials (Worm and Ward), where it made the world feel larger and full of characters that each have their own stories going on, even if they aren’t the focus of the work. The reason it works is because enough is established with the characters and their arcs that, when we see the before and after of the character development, we feel like events happened naturally (helped with the interlude chapters allowing us to get to know characters other than the protagonist well). Now, obviously they can’t use exactly that solution since TV is a different medium, but they should better integrate the character arcs with the show. They do this sometimes, like with Detmer (and even then, her arc could have used a scene establishing why something like flying Book’s ship would get her out of her funk), but not often enough (leading to many characters getting fleshed out just to be written off in the same story). It feels like the writers don’t always have a handle of who knows what; they assume that because they know something, we know it, when in reality they just introduced something with no context for us to process it, or that because we learned something, the characters know it.
With respect to the chain of command, I think this might be an issue resulting from how many showrunners there have been and differing visions of the series. Bryan Fuller was clearly going for a Lower Decks type show, as seen early on when the show focused on Burnham and the development of the spore drive. The problem is, they’re now trying to do traditional galaxy-saving stories, but have retained a Lower Decks type cast, leading to incongruities (such as the dinner scene earlier in the season). Some of this could have been easily been resolved with a few lines earlier in the season – perhaps the Chief Engineer and Chief Medical Officer stayed in the 23rd Century, so Reno and Culber would be promoted. A line or two establishing such things early in the season (instead of ignoring the issue) would have made things make a bit more sense.
I also think part of the reason for this is the shortnened episodes. They seem to be cramming 22 episode stories into 10-13 episodes and hence why some character development inevitably happens off-screen and the pacing of the episodes are so chaotic. There isn’t enough of a breathing room in most episodes.
I wish it were the stories of 22 episodes. To me it appears as if the story of 3 episodes was extended to 10 episodes just like it was the case with Picard. The main plot could have been handled in an arc with 3-4 episodes.
I’d forgotten about that tech, and I think that has to be part of it. There’s a reason Vance was apprehensive about Discovery using Emerald Chain tech, right? Maybe that same tech will be used to free Discovery? I totally agree with you about off-camera character development. There are ways to do it but I think it’s one of the things Discovery isn’t great at (especially when they wait until the episode someone leaves to finally dig into who they are). I was trying to remember if Culber and Burnham had spent any time together before season 3, and I could be wrong, but I think it was back in season 1 when she was worried about the tardigrade.
And yet I have no trouble believing that Reno and Stamets have clashed offscreen many times.
Christmas isn’t supposed to be about badly written and designed Star Trek fan-fiction. I read the spoilers for this episode and already felt my blood pressure rising. Sounds like another let-down of a mystery box.
When we heard about the Burn in the season three premiere, I really didn’t think it needed to be explained let alone held up as a season-defining mystery. But here we are.
This is the first episode of Disco that I haven’t watched on the same day it was released. I’m going to enjoy Christmas instead. It sounds like I’m not missing much.
I want to listen to this podcast episode though! I love the podcast, but it’s getting harder and harder to sit through this Nu-Trek drivel. If you are reading this and you like Disco, ok fine, keep enjoying it. But this show is not being written or produced for me, clearly (seems weird because I’m a life-long Trekkie and major science fiction fan, but whatevs).
Hey PeachesXtreme, suggest you watch the episode and don’t let it get spoiled too much more.
I loved it although I was a bit jaw dropped by the blatant cliffhanger. You might enjoy more than you expect.
I’ve seen The Burn as less of a season defining mystery and more of a background mystery that needs to be resolved before Discovery can fully integrate into the 32nd century. It’s been there, but the big story of the season is how Michael and the rest of the crew come to terms with where and when they are.
To me the Burn says more about how the Federation was fragile after the Temporal Cold War, such that a major catastrophe led to anarchy and isolationism rather than cooperation. Discovery is specifically and generally a solution because it represents an earlier generation that believed that science and teamwork could solve problems (even if the crew is pretty dysfunctional).
I’d hoped to see some interesting speculation on this board about where and how Osyraa got her intelligence and what does that mean for Discovery and the Federation. Or, about whether Michael has finally turned a corner where she can start to own how being personally compromised in previous situations is not who she needs to be to serve as an officer in Starfleet.
Instead, I’m seeing a lot of super negativity about getting just the kind of Trekkie trippiness on a mysterious planet and a wild twist in “what is real?” Holodeck simulations that some of us said we weren’t getting enough of.
On top of that, the acting and directing and pacing was nuanced and excellent in contrast to many of the way beats have been played over-the-top to the point of melodrama in previous seasons and episodes?
Aren’t all of these things and changes that fans (including me) have been asking for?
I’m looking forward to giving the podcast a listen, and even more to TrekMovie’s upcoming speculative “theories of the week” article in a couple of days.
After suffering through the Phillipa “Space Hitler” Georgiou farewell episode last week and being distracted by Xmas this week, like a sugar addict reaching for one more cookie after swearing off the sweets, I couldn’t resist the allure of turning on the latest episode of Star Trek Disco this morning…
I loved it! This episode really exceeded my expectations and was a ton of fun!
I’m going to keep reading spoilers for Disco before watching it. It really helped me prepare myself. The fact that Space Hitler is gone and Michael wasn’t the sole focus are huge pluses.
The only part of the episode that I didn’t enjoy was the trademark Burnham whispering as she said goodbye to Book before leaving on the away mission. At this point the whispering draws me out of the viewing experience and I become fully aware of the fact that I’m watching an actor instead of being drawn into the story.
As far as the podcast, I started it but have not yet listened to most of it. But I want to share some feedback concerning what Laurie and Tony were saying about the so-called Space Hitler redemption “teaser” theory. This might sound harsh but this is truly how I felt: You guys sound like an abused person making excuses for how he or she is being treated by their abusive partner.
Sure, the writers have these ‘intentions’ of redeeming Space Hitler down the line and there’s all this ‘character growth’ that we can imagine happened “off-screen and in-between episodes.” But to me this is simply making excuses for how badly the writers and producers have bungled this character. I’m worried that you guys are losing touch with reality. You want to love Space Hitler, I get it. You run a Star Trek website so you have to remain Trek-positive. But for me no amount of wishful thinking makes up for the fact that I despise Space Hitler. She’s a villain. Nothing about season 3 has made me like her. I have no desire to wrap my brain into a pretzel to try to like her just because the producers are trying to force her into a new show.
I love the thoughtful analysis and speculation of the podcast. But I am not interested in a Disco-apologist podcast. That might be a bit extreme, you’re not there yet… just trying to offer constructive criticism from a place of honest friendship and love. It’s important to call out bad writing and lack of character development for what it is, let’s not fool ourselves. Like an abused woman (for example) reaching for justifications for her husband’s actions, we’re setting ourselves up for more pain in the future if we let this slide.
Georgiou did not deserve that send-off.
I think maybe you missed the point of the discussion. We both felt that the redemption arc was pushed too hard and too quickly. We both felt the memorial service at the end felt out of place and inappropriate, given the character’s history. But as someone who felt strongly that Georgiou was being treated as redeemed without earning it, I found the discussions on our boards very enlightening. People raised intriguing questions about nature vs. nurture as well as whether anyone is truly irredeemable. Those are big issues worthy of examination. Did the writers accomplish what they wanted with Georgiou? To some, they did. For me, not so much.
If you’re interested, my main condition for redemption is that the person must look back on their past, acknowledge it, and regret it. I didn’t feel Georgiou did that, but after reading people’s thoughtful comments, I did see how she had started on that long and winding path.
I also think critique is more effective if it’s nuanced and thoughtful. One can try to understand the writers’ intentions and still be objective about whether they were achieved or not.
When Tony and I have positive opinions, they are genuine. We will continue to remain honest about what we like and don’t like. Glad you’re enjoying the podcast, but don’t mistake an opinion you don’t share with an opinion that is “wrong.” Sometimes, people just disagree. Obviously a lot of fans have been enjoying Georgiou and feel that it all makes sense; I’m not one of them, but by being open-minded I have understood that point of view a lot better than I did before, and seen some value in it even if I’m not in agreement.
I just finished enjoying the rest of the podcast. I apologize for suggesting you and Tony were starting to sound like Disco-apologists. You guys did a great job of dissecting what worked and what didn’t work with this episode. My previous comment was premature.
Sometimes when I feel a little worried/anxious/grouchy about the direction Star Trek has been taking in the JJ/Kurtzman era I start to miss The Shuttle Pod, especially Brian with his old-school acerbic observations.
All I’m trying to say is this: I love All Access at the same time that I miss The Shuttle Pod. It’s fantastic having All Access every Friday, but it’s been awhile since the last Shuttle Pod and I’m starting to miss those guys (and gal).
I’m sorry that I allowed my desire for more Shuttle Pod to bleed into my (now-retracted) negative feedback about All Access. I should have listened to the whole podcast before jumping to the comments.
I hate Phillipa “Space Hitler” Georgiou so much that it seems to be turning me into one of those “toxic fans” I hear so much about. This last episode fills me with hope though. I’m so happy to be looking forward to next week’s episode again!
The Shuttle Pod is still going strong! They have been busy over the holidays but have a new episode coming out soon. Also, we’ve had Kayla and Matt on All Access and we’ve guested on the Shuttle Pod, and we plan to keep that going. We’ll get everyone on at some point. Part of the reason we are doing this is because the Shuttle Pod can’t record as often as we do (because of their busy schedules and having to coordinate with more people), and they didn’t want to be locked into a review schedule of new shows. So this seemed a great way to get everything covered under the TrekMovie umbrella, and take the pressure off of them in terms of topics (freeing them up to do great subjects like TNG season 1, horror Trek, etc.).
I get the Space Hitler thing. I was honestly right there with you until crazy stuff started happening to her and she showed vulnerability. Maybe you, like me, are still annoyed by Starfleet deciding to “pretend” she’s the real Georgiou! Anyway, I think they finally got her started on a more interesting path… I just wish they didn’t have the other characters treat her as if she’d already finished her journey.
And yes to Brian’s acerbic observations. Ha! I like them too.
Not only was the memorial service out of place and too much, the episode felt like it was over after Georgiou went through the portal. That would have been a great ending and a great cliffhanger too. They could have added a few seconds after the credits where you see Georgiou arriving, That would have been an even greater cliffhanger. Maybe the writers still have no plan what to do with her next, the time period, and so on.
Also, I’m glad you liked the episode! I did too.
So good to hear that you landed on the “loved it” side on this one.
It’s interesting how it’s had such strongly positive and negative reactions.
I’m really feeling like this season is doing a number of different things, some of which appeal to some of the audience and others that are very appealing to another niche.
Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas!
My, my, my! Happy holidays to us. Good episode. However the ease with which Discovery is captured is a scandal. We need a new security officer, ASAP! And Osyraa knows way too much about Discovery and its crew. What if she’s some kind of associate to Kovich? His place in is Starfleet is still murky and that device they use on Stamets seems like an unholy alliance between Terran Universe and rogue Section 31.
Burnham pretending to be a hologram is also good stuff. Making the kind of mental leaps she always does to move the plot along. She’s becoming the First Officer Discovery needs. I don’t think they can make her Captain yet. She leaves the ship for every mission. Even the one where she was acting Captain!
A new security officer? How about ANY security officers? How about anyone even talking about security? Agree.
In ENT they would have used the MACOs.
Yar, Worf, Odo, Tuvok… they all would have had a thing or two to say about, well, everything. I was really hoping Nhan would stay or Willa would step in.
I’ve been wondering if Lieutenant Willa might be the source for the security breach.
Osyraa has far too much, and far too detailed intelligence about the Discovery, its crew and most crucially its spore drive. Security had to have been compromised at a fundamental level.
This seems like so much more comprehensive information about Discovery than could be accessed through the extender that Book added to the scan for the ship in the nebula.
So, who at Federation HQ is responsible?
Although it could be Admiral Vance himself, it would have been Willa who had access to integrated sets of specs for Discovery and the central role where she could insert back doors into the security system.
By the way, it also appears that the Federation’s intelligence on the function and capabilities of Emerald Chain technologies. This is odd, and could also suggests Federation Security is compromised.
There are still some other suspects no-one has come up yet. What about Grudge? Or Detmer, who is suffering problems due to that piece of tech? That subplot seems to be forgotten. There should be a reason.
It’s Lieutenant Nilsson. She was conveniently not on the bridge. Somethings up with her.
It is really strange that they were on red alert, yet they acted totally surprised. One would expect that they were hiding heavily armed in some corners, awaiting the attack.
One VERY simple strategy which I have never seen in Star Trek (or can’t remember): why don’t they just shut off life support on some parts of the ship, as soon as they are boarded? Open an airlock or something? (Wait, I remember VOY did that with the remaining Borg). Of course they could have personal shields in that time period. But these already existed in TAS and yet no other show did use that idea? (OK. TNG had it on one episode, but that was it).
The contrast with standard Star Trek captain protocols is really stark.
I just rewatched the Discovery S1 episode where they find themselves in the Mirror Universe. (It was broadcast on CBS on December 21st.)
When a Klingon vessel appears on screen, Lorca instructs the helm (i.e. Detmer) to make a standard evasive maneuver pattern.
Tilly may not have been through the Command program, but she went through months of war with Lorca as a cadet and crises on the bridge with Pike. Commanding Detmer to put distance between Discovery and Osyraa’s ship should have been automatic. More, it wouldn’t have been inappropriate for Detmer to ask Tilly for orders if they weren’t given. We even saw this in TNG.
On the boarders, even 23rd century ships had intruder alerts as an automated response from the computer. This brings me back to thinking that Discovery’s systems and security were compromised in the refit.
Perhaps only the Spore data AI can override this, and only when it can have evidence of the threat that Osyraa presents.
Counting back, if Discovery had run before Lower Decks as originally scheduled, 311 would have been shown the week before Halloween.
How would that have changed everyone’s perceptions?
It would have made a good Halloween episode with the very creepy monster behind the door.
TOS did a Halloween episode with Catspaw. Has any other Trek series ever done one?
Persistence of Vision (VOY, Oct 30, 1995)
Phantasms (TNG, Oct 25, 1993)
Funny, most other spooky Trek episodes I had in mind (Night Terrors, Waking Moments, Sub Rosa) didn’t air around Halloween.
As always, Laurie and Tony, thanks for the thoughtful conversation. You consistently give reasoned opinions, which I appreciate much more than posters who offer only subjective declarative sentences. I agree with your positive observations about this episode in terms of entertaining storytelling within the “rules” of the Trekverse. As you said, we have more to learn about the imagined properties of a dilithium planet, but I am glad The Burn was not a mere plot by baddies. It was a somewhat random tragedy that can occur in life, such as the mutation of a coronavirus, that has enormous consequences.
So glad you’re enjoying the podcast!
Assuming the mother sent the distress signal, why is it hidden within that lullaby known by everyone in the galaxy? What should have resulted in his rescue ended up destroying pretty much any possibility of a rescue. Is that because Su’Kal is afraid of what’s outside?
The lullaby Burnham tracked was a distortion of the distress signal.
It seems that this is a different lullaby from the Kelpian culture.
I get that. But how and why did the signal get distorted? Possibly some training holo activity gone awry since he’s scared of leaving… I’m looking forward to a better explanation of how this kid, alone in the middle of nowhere, atop a mountain of the most precious resource in the galaxy, destroyed life as we know it.
Good thought Lydia, and it sounds like we’re thinking along similar lines about how the holosimulation (and perhaps a defence/security system) are corrupted, running amok and interacting with a mentality unstable and undeveloped psyche.
(See my comment further up the thread speculating on what might be involved.)
As long as the mother doesn’t turn out to be the mother of Michael Burnham (or becomes the 5th mother figure for her), I am fine. ;-)
Ha! Same.
On the episode review thread, another poster commented on the parallels with the 1950s movie Forbidden Planet.
I can see that, and some parallels with Vina’s situation on Talos V in the Cage (which many commentators have suggested was inspired by Forbidden Planet).
It would be great if Tony and Laurie could do a deep dive on Forbidden Planet and how it compares to Su’Kal’s story.
Yes, that was me ;-) It was mainly that monster and the circumstances which gained my attraction and immediately reminded me of the monster in “Forbidden Planet”. Since the circumstances are related to the whole story, there are more elements which are parallel.
Forbidden Planet is so very much a classic Trek kind of story even though it is a precursor from another creative team (and considered by many the greatest science fiction movie of the 1950s).
One has to wonder if Discovery’s writers dug right back to it. After all, they didn’t hesitate to go back to the Talosians. While Akiva Goldsman isn’t in Discovery’s writers room now, it’s entirely likely that he flagged Forbidden Planet to Kurtzman and Paradise when he was working on season two.
Anyway, it would be great to have a speculative TrekMovie deep dive for those who haven’t seen Forbidden Planet and for those of us who haven’t seen it in a long time.
I heard that Forbidden Planet was a big influence on Gene Roddenberry when he was creating TOS, so there is that aspect as well. This could also be analyzed in the podcast.
What about Tig Nataro as temporary captain? That would make sense.
Loved your podcast. Happy New Year!
Oh, she’d rather be in a Jefferies tube than in the captain’s chair! Glad you’re enjoying the podcast. Happy New Year!
Hello! I’m a long time Star Trek fan – but this was my first time listening to a podcast on the topic. I really enjoyed it! Thank you – you have a new regular listener.
So glad to hear it!
I just wanted to say I enjoy your All Access Podcast. I look forward every week to your analysis of the show. You are both a joy to listen to.
I don’t have social media anymore so I count on you two for trek news.
Keep up the great work!
Very happy you’re enjoying it. Thank you!
I think you guys are misinterpreting the thing with Culber and Michael. Culber loves something about Michael. That doesn’t mean that he loves Michael. You don’t need to be close to somebody to love certain things about them.