Review: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Stands Up In “There Is A Tide…”

“There Is A Tide…”

Star Trek: Discovery Season 3, Episode 12– Debuted Thursday, December 31, 2020
Written by: Kenneth Lin
Directed by: Jonathan Frakes

SPOILER-FREE REVIEW

While “There Is A Tide…”  is hampered a bit by sitting in the middle of a three-part finale, there is still enough here to make it a solid entry for season three. The episode takes a classic setup and sprinkles in some big emotional moments for our characters that have been building all season. Strong guest stars elevate the drama along with a standout performance from series regular Anthony Rapp.

Oh boy, I can’t wait for my antennae to grow back any day now.

 

RECAP

WARNING: Spoilers below!

“What the hell is going on here?”

The action picks up right after last week’s cliffhanger, exchanging the previous episode’s spooky sci-fi weirdness with fast-paced sci-fi action. Big bad Osyraa, now fully in command of the USS Discovery, is pulling the old pretend to be chased by other baddies to get the good guys to let you into their fortress trick, but Admiral Vance takes a bit more of a show before he is ready to open Starfleet HQ’s barn door. She has Zareh from episode 302 along, upgrading him from a one-dimensional villain all the way to 2D. He is in charge of rounding up the Discovery’s crew and taunting them with clichéd dialog. Under guard with the bridge crew, Ensign/Acting Captain Tilly is now regretting letting Zareh live.

As the tension ratchets up, Michael and Book worm their way through a dangerously cluttered transwarp conduit to burst onto the scene. With the plot demanding their coms break right at that moment, they are left with no other choice but to ram his ship into the shuttle bay just as Vance relents and lets the Disco into Starfleet’s inner sanctum. Michael’s plan is simple: Discovery can’t spore without Stamets, so her goal is to get to him with a little help from a concealment device to help her John McClane her way through the ship. Book allows himself to get captured so he can join Tilly’s hostage gang with Ryn, but before he goes they slow things down just enough to give Michael a chance to tell him, for the first time, that she loves him. It’s actually a lovely moment, but bad things often happen soon after characters have emotional moments like this, so add that worry to the list.

I only have one of these so don’t lose it.

“Mr. Stamets I can assure you, we have other methods now”

Stamets is being held captive in his lab by the surprisingly compassionate Chain scientist Aurellio, played with apt subtlety by Discovery veteran Kenneth Mitchell. The two chat about tardigrade DNA, Andorian opera, and family life. Aurellio sees the kinder side of Osyraa and is blind to the Chain’s atrocities, even while talking to his fellow scientist chained to a railing on a ship held hostage. He genuinely believes he can regrow a tardigrade and the Chain will bring the miracle of the spore drive to the entire galaxy. But Paul’s cold splash of “I believe she is more than she appears to be but she’s also everything she appears to be,” may snap this true believer out of his spell, a little.

Meanwhile, the bridge gang uses a bit of Morse Code to distract and then dispatch the goons holding them. They quickly start their plan to retake the ship, with a little help from Ryn hacking the Emerald Chain OS that controls the computer. Mary Wiseman and Tilly rise to the occasion to organize the group into teams, leaving Book and Ryn behind to turn Saru’s ready room into their own little Alamo while the rest head to the armory to stock up.

Yeah, my cousin was a Klingon, why do you ask?

“The past is the only light with which we could see the future”

It doesn’t take Vance long to figure out Osyraa has the Disco, but instead of exchanging fire, she invites herself over to HQ. Now Osyraa – sorry Minister Osyraa,  la-di-da – wants to get all diplomatic. This isn’t a criminal shakedown; she wants to talk peace and even an alliance. WTF? Eli the truth-detector EMH says she is genuine. Sending a nice fruit basket with a card might have been a better start than holding a ship hostage, but here we are. She is proposing using her apparently significant scientific resources to create spore drives for everyone, using the cachet of the Federation to lend legitimacy to the operation. It turns out that after a century of brutality, she and the Chain have a bit of a PR problem.

In a series of scenes that drag the pacing down a bit, this unlikely pair starts hashing out a deal for an entirely new kind of Federation that includes Chain concessions over ending slavery and not hassling pre-warp civilizations. “You are a chain of planets, we are federation of mercantile exchanges,” quips Osyraa. But our man Vance isn’t a sellout, and he even gets scatological to throw off Osryaa’s nice guy act and make a point that while she has been enjoying the fresh fruit good life on the backs of a brutal system, he and what remains of Starfleet have been literally eating s—t to maintain what’s left of their moral core. He is ready to make peace, a time-honored tradition of the Federation. But he isn’t going to forfeit their ideals, nor forgive Osyraa’s many, many crimes. You tell her, Chuck!

Eli can’t believe she’s pulling off that outfit.

“My whole life is in that nebula!”

Michael’s trip to Stamets’ lab is quite eventful and a bit of dangerous fun. A fight with a Chain regulator leaves her bleeding and limping after being stabbed in the leg, but she snagged one of their badges as a consolation prize. She still can’t call off the ship, but somehow she can send an SOS to her mom on Ni’Var, so maybe the Vulcans and Romulans will come to rescue everyone in the finale. It doesn’t take long for Hans Gruber Zareh to sort out what she’s doing and send a team into the Jeffries tubes to track her down. Burnham cleverly starts a fire and the Chain gang gets vented into space with the oxygen purge while Michael hangs on, costing her a pair of boots—but the payoff of seeing the befuddled baddie floating in space with those boots alongside was totally worth it. Yippee-ki-yay, motherchainer!

Burnham eventually makes it to Paul and to the emotional heart of this episode. Keenly aware of the ticking clock and how this episode hasn’t cut back once to check in on Hugh and Saru in that radioactive nebula, Stamets is determined to spore them back for the rescue, even with the Chain still in control of the ship. (Maybe Michael shouldn’t have told him Adira is in the nebula too now, as that really pushed him over the edge.) As the MVP of the episode, Anthony Rapp breaks our hearts with his anguish, but Michael is in single-minded-Burnham mode and puts him down with a Vulcan nerve pinch. Remember, she can do that—she grew up there and everything.

Let me get this straight, you left my partner and adopted child in a radioactive nebula and you want me to be calm?

“The Burn has left us with a legacy of isolation and fear”

Back at Federation HQ, Osyraa is not taking well to Vance’s final offer and returns to the Disco in a really bad mood. Finding out Tilly and the bridge pack are free doesn’t help, which is really bad news for Ryn, who has chosen this moment to finally stand up to her. He has learned a thing or two about those Federation ideals from this plucky group of Starfleet officers, and so no, he won’t rat them out. Noah Averbach-Katz nails the landing on Ryn’s arc for the season just in time for the Greenie Meanie to vaporize him. Yeah, she can wave an armistice around, but at her core, this is who she is. Notably, Aurellio was there to see it, finally understanding how the Chain’s sausage gets made, and he may be ready to turn vegan.

Michael’s mission also comes to an intense conclusion as she takes some pretty extreme measures to get Stamets away from Osyraa. Three seasons of frustration come to a head with Paul as he is strapped into some kind of energy pod thing. The heartache of this dynamic continues as he doesn’t want to go, but Michael is in pure needs-of-the-Federation mode and even if it kills her a little bit inside, she shoots him out a window to the apparent safety of a Federation tractor beam. Mission accomplished, but at what cost?

Oh, and this episode isn’t done with us yet. Set phasers to adorable… purged from the computer by the Chain, the Sphere Data (aka proto-Zora) has found its way into the DOT bots and they report for duty to Captain Tilly, who has taken the armory and looks ready to get a bit Killy in the season finale next week.

OK, OK, I’ll be calm.

ANALYSIS

Sum of its parts

There is a lot to like in “There Is A Tide…” There’s action, character moments, plot progression, and even some dark humor. But it still feels a bit disjointed, which is the price you pay for being the middle episode in what is shaping up to be a three-part finale. After last week’s intriguing—yet still head-scratching—reveal on The Burn, it was a risk to leave that thread behind for an entire episode to play out the retake-the-ship trope, and they didn’t even finish retaking the ship.

Director Jonathan Frakes did a fine job keeping the ball rolling with some fun moments, tense situations, and genuine emotional impact. Although even with the always excellent Oded Fehr, there was a bit of a grind with the diplomatic tête-à-tête. On the other hand, the back and forth between Stamets and Aurellio was fascinating, and Ken Mitchell’s return to Discovery was very welcome with a nuanced performance that really opened up the Emerald Chain. It’s also going to be hard to say goodbye to Ryn, who has grown as a character this season, but his sacrifice made sense and was earned. And as Ken Mitchell proves, there can be opportunities to return to Discovery for Averbach-Katz.

I got this, EmeraldOS runs on an exploitable version of Windows 3095

Working on the chain

Leaving Su’Kal and his implications for The Burn to the finale, “There is a Tide…” rushed out quite a lot of world-building for the Emerald Chain and Osyraa. Not just a 32nd-century version of the criminal Orion Syndicate, we now learn it is a vast and complex civilization, complete with advanced science and even an element of democracy in the form of a Congress. As for Osyraa herself, she gets some new layers of nuance, showing a softer side and even sympathetic side. Humanizing and expanding on adversaries is good, but it’s a little late in the game to be doing it. The season would have been better served to have layered these things in along the way.

A welcome element was Vance standing up for the ideals of the Federation, not willing to compromise even under the enormous strain of the post-Burn galaxy. This hopeful message is an important part of Star Trek and alleviates any tiny worries that the Federation was going to turn out to be some dark version of its former self in season three. Even though Vance has been the face of the Federation all season, it was good to acknowledge that he is Starfleet and not part of the civilian leadership, which so far has been a no-show (unless Kovich counts, but he is too delightfully mysterious to slot in anywhere at this point). Osryaa’s mention of the Federation President not being part of the talks did seem pointed, perhaps hinting at a cool finale reveal. Then again, this is the show that name-dropped Lorca about fifty times in episode 309 without payoff in 310, so don’t get your hopes up for Jonathan Frakes as a cloned President William T. Riker in 313.

Now I am really regretting I didn’t bring that fruit basket

23 weeks of Star Trek almost over

You can say a lot about 2020, but it has been a big year for Star Trek. With Picard, Lower Decks, and Discovery we have had 32 new episodes of Trek, including 22 in a row starting in August. And this third season of Discovery has been a delight, with a change of pace and setting for the show that has helped the weeks go by. “There Is A Tide…” is a solid entry in what has been the best season of the show so far, effectively setting up the stakes for the highly-anticipated season finale in the new year. I can’t wait.

I can see Nakatomi Plaza from here.

Random extra bits

  • This is the third episode of the season and seventh of the series for director Jonathan Frakes, who now ties executive producer/director Olatunde Osunsanmi (until next week’s episode).
  • “There Is A Tide…” is a quote from William Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar.
  • The trick of capturing a ship and having it fired on to sneak in was used just two weeks ago for the season finale of The Mandalorian.
  • Book says Osyraa used the same trick to destroy the Presidential Palace on Benthos IV.
  • Michael’s  losing her shoes, taking a guard’s weapon and communicator, crawling through tubes, and taunting the hostage-taker leader were all homages to the Christmas classic Die Hard.
  • Other Star Trek episodes that have paid homage to Die Hard include TNG’s “Starship Mine,” DS9’s “Civil Defense,” and VOY’s “Macrocosm.”
  • While traversing the cluttered courier transwarp tunnel, Michael calls out a Wanderer class ship.
  • Emerald Chain devices use Orion language script.
  • Emerald Chain officer Kana (Lisa Berry) was of the same unknown species as Kima from Short Treks’ “Children of Mars.”
  • Aurellio was Kenneth Mitchell’s fourth role on Star Trek: Discovery; he played three different Klingon characters during the first two seasons.
  • The DOT-23 robots are the 32nd-century successor to the 23rd century DOT-7 robots introduced in season two and on Short Treks.
  • The DOT-23s gave Tilly a Vulcan salute, albeit with only three little digits. Adorable.
  • The closest ship securing the USS Discovery was the Eisenberg-class USS Song (NCC-325084).
  • Why couldn’t Zareh use any of the available 32nd tech to fix his mangled hand? (Ryn’s antennae, same question.)
  • Line of the week: “You’re going to need more regulators.”

Go to the future they said. It will be a great adventure they said.

More to come

Every Friday the new TrekMovie.com All Access Star Trek Podcast covers the latest news in the Star Trek Universe and discusses the latest episode. The podcast is available on Apple PodcastsSpotifyPocket CastsStitcher and is part of the TrekMovie Podcast Network.


New episodes of Star Trek: Discovery premiere on Thursdays on CBS All Access in the U.S. and on CTV Sci-Fi Channel in Canada, where it’s also available to stream on Crave. Episodes are available on Fridays internationally on Netflix.

Keep up with all the news and reviews from the new Star Trek Universe on TV at TrekMovie.com.

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Thank you – that made me chuckle. Happy New Year!

Is it just me or has Anthony P. and his reviews become more ‘cute’ / precious over the years?

Happy New Year to the Trekmovie staff! I enjoy the articles (and often the comments) very much. Please keep up the great work!

The most interesting aspect of the episode was the negotiation between the admiral and Osyraa. Even though “Eli” said she was being truthful (mostly) I still didn’t believe Osyraa. The entire deal felt like an attempt to corrupt what was left of the Federation.

Although, it made me wonder if for all the shittiness of the Emerald Chain, is there really a lot of diff between an agreement with them and the one the Federation did with the Klingon Empire in the 23rd century? And (from what we know) the Klingons didn’t have to pass anti slavery legislation and have officials stand trial.

Last edited 6 months ago by Edward Samuela

The only difference being that Osyraa wants the merge the Emerald Chain and the Federation. The Khitomer Accords were simply for an alliance.

But I also think we can safely assume that Klingons didn’t have slavery on either TNG or Berman Trek. Neither Trek franchise would have had the balls for it after TNG established them as allies.

Back on TNG I never saw them as allies. It felt more like an agreed upon truce or non aggression pact. And they would side with each other only when it served each other’s purpose. Beyond that, it seemed they just left each other alone for the most part.

Let’s be honest, for Klingons, non aggression pacts are probably the closest most species have to being ‘allies’ with them. ;)

Klingons should show up in season 4.

Only if they’re still Fullerfied.

Why????????

Those suck!

Because we already got eighteen years of the Michael Westmore kind. Should be done with them.

It’s like suggesting they should change the look of humans because they had the same look for a few hundred thousand years now. ;)

I’m not opposed to changing them as they already were in TOS but same time I don’t get this odd idea they should just look different just because. That’s what they look like for decades now. No one is asking to change Vulcans, Cardassians, Bajorans, Trills, Borg or others. Again, I get people might want to update make up from time to time but if you’re going to do it, at least make it BETTER. The first season Klingons in Discovery were horrible. I liked what they did with them in season 2 by actually giving them hair and dressing them to look more like traditional Klingons but I have zero issues of having them look like traditional Klingons. They already said if we see Worf (more like when ;)), he’s going to look like Worf, so yeah. And I always thought they changed them more in season 2 because once Picard was announced it was NO WAY people want to see bizarro Worf or the other Klingons show up on that show.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

I’m asking…..

Go away loser. I’m not talking to you…ever.

Happy New Year Tiger :)

So I already replied to this, and it went into purgatory and then apparently did not pass inspection. I have no idea why, but it’s bullshit that I should have to retype everything again, and this happens more often than not.

But we want fundamentally opposite things from our Trek. I want them to run over “canon” with a bus, and then reverse and back over it again. And when I say that, it’s no different from what they did with the TOS movies and with early TNG.

But it doesn’t matter anyway because after four tries these bozos still can’t block a working season story arc from start to finish. They can’t do it.

Yeah that has happened to me too. It really suck when you write something just to never see it appear, especially when it’s a long post. Very frustrating. We all been there. And what I do now, as I am doing for this post, I copy the post, post the first few lines and then just re-edit in the rest. That usually works 99.9% of the time.

As for your response, I have said this many times as well, even maybe a few times to you, I have NO problems if they avoid canon and did whatever they wanted. I have no issues with that at all. None.

BUT, the only way you can really truly do that if you reboot the show and make it clear it’s in it’s own separate universe from what we have seen before. I have not only said this, I have actively advocated for it, especially in the first season of Discovery. And since Star Trek takes place in a multiverse, you can tell yourself it’s still connected, ala the Kelvin universe.

So oddly we’re not really disagreeing at all. I’m totally fine with that. In fact I would’ve been totally fine with Discovery first season (the look, not the hideous writing ;)) if they just made it clear it wasn’t the prime universe and they could’ve done literally anything they wanted. That’s how a reboot works, right? But once you set things in a familiar universe and one that’s been around for over 50 years, then people expect you to adhere to it on some level. Otherwise, your show looks very much out of place and then the only solution for it is to throw it 1,000 years into the future so you no longer have to worry about canon. ;)

But then, and I find this funny, people argue if it’s not in the prime universe then they won’t care about it as much (which is partly why the Kelvin universe lost interest to a lot of fans and seems kind of shunned today in favor of prime). Which only tells me most people DO care about canon then, right??? You can’t say (and this is not aimed at you), ‘well I don’t care about canon anymore, but I still want it to be in the same universe with all the familiar canon I care about.’

So here we are. ;)

Star Trek fans can just be weird at times lol And I’m not trying to relive this, but that was literally my entire issue with the Tarantino project. People kept saying Tarantino shouldn’t have to care about 50 years of canon, but then oddly he felt it had to be in the prime universe. But if you don’t care about canon, then why not just put it in its own freaking universe and not mess up the one that has been pretty much set for decades now? This is why these arguments gets frustrating.

So no, we don’t want completely opposite things, we actually want the same thing. My only point has been once you set something in existing canon, then consistency to that canon is very very important or you lose your audience if it contradicts too much. That’s not a Star Trek thing, just basic storytelling 101. Comics have known this for decades now and why they reboot their characters over and over again so they can tell different stories and settings with them.

Now, all that said, I still would’ve found the Discovery Klingons hideously bad in any universe lol.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

I’ll try your edit maneuver. I made a response above that got the “waiting for approval” notice. I suspect it won’t make it.

Oh and as far as your other point about the TOS movies and TNG, again I 100% with that. But once again, that ONLY worked because they set TNG a hundred years post TOS so it was basically a soft reboot. It was the same universe but a completely different era, so they basically could do what they wanted, right?

Again, what MANY of us were arguing about with Discovery and why so many people wanted the show to be a post-Nemesis show on day one. Because when you set a show in a future where nothing is literally written yet, then you can basically make canon your own again while still acknowledging the past, which TNG did. But when you make something a prequel, then you can’t just rewrite everything, you have to set it in all the parameters of the shows that came before it. This is ironically what so many of us were also saying. If you don’t care about canon that much, then making a prequel show is the LAST thing you want. You want to go the opposite way and set your show as far away from the others as possible so canon can be mostly whatever you want it to be again.

And why Discovery is now 900 years from it’s previous setting. And they literally set it that far because there was nothing written in canon past the 31st century. In other words the show is literally doing what people like me was begging for it to do on day one so it can just be more of its own thing. It’s pretty funny how they themselves acknowledged what many fans were saying before the show even started. It just took 3 seasons to get there. ;)

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

I’ve had a post or two fail to show up as well. Weird.

While I disagree about bulldozing canon I’m right there with you on this groups inability to map out an entire story arc. As you said, that ability completely eludes them. They are 0 for 4 on it.

I honestly think STD would be MUCH better if it were episodic. They need to dump the story arcs. They will NEVER be good with that. With individual episodes it could be possible to have a good story once or twice in 13 episodes. With the story arc, if the overall story doesn’t work then the entire season is lost.

And for the record, I would be fine with ignoring the canon and starting something new. That’s called a reboot. Something I would be OK with. Provided they do it good. Which I don’t think this group can.

Last edited 6 months ago by ML31

Yeah me and you have talked about this many times. You know I was completely for a reboot as well. But I also had no issues with if they didn’t reboot it and kept it in the Prime universe. In other words, I was fine whatever direction they made EXCEPT the one they actually made lol. And that was to set it in the prime universe and basically just treat it like a reboot anyway. I guess Fuller was thinking he can have his cake and eat it too by setting it in the same universe people know and love but completely change anything he wanted in the process without calling it a reboot…although it basically was.

And that worked wonders lol.

That was just a bad idea from the beginning. So bad that the new showrunners just said ‘fuck it’ and moved the show completely from its original setting. That’s NEVER been done before in Star Trek. A move I’m VERY happy they did as you know, but wasn’t begging for it to happen either. But now that it did, I’m extremely happy and we hear next to nothing about the canon issues anymore. But we still hear about everything else lol, which goes to the other point.

End of the day none of this REALLY matters if the storytelling is really solid….and it isn’t. People wouldn’t have cared that much if Discovery was an amazing show in season one. People would’ve still complained but they would’ve gotten over it faster.

Now I personally think it’s gotten waaaaay better, but yeah still has a lot of flaws. I’m really enjoying the season more, but the show is still my second to least favorite in the entire franchise. So I like it more, but it still needs tons of work IMO. But the new setting has at least breath new life into it and now they can do pretty much whatever they want. That excites me much more as a fan to see what the galaxy is now instead of the REALLY boring way it was doing in first season filling in stories to stuff we already knew.

I agree though, it would probably be better if it went the old way of classic Trek and just do more episodic stories like TOS, TNG and VOY mostly did. The people who make DIS are not at the level of DS9 writers or even the ENT writers. They can’t seem to make a compelling serial arc no matter how hard they try and they try ridiculously hard.

And especially since most of people’s favorite episodes seems to be the more episodic ones and that includes this season as well.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

We are on similar pages here. I do not necessarily WANT to see a reboot. But have no issues if that was the direction they wanted to try.

But yes, they sorta screwed themselves over in season one. The show had the look and feel of a reboot (which again, is fine) but hey kept telling us it was prime. That just didn’t make sense nor did it sit well with the hard core fans.

But still… The bottom line is… Is it good? If the show was good but still looked the way it did, I actually could get past it. It would still be a bit of an annoyance. But hey… It would still be a good Trek show with some visual flaws.

However, it seems the plan is for SNW to be the more episodic series of the group. So if that is what you want, there it is. In that sense, that show has the best potential to work. Secret Hideout can’t map out a 10 or 13 episode arc to save its life. Maybe 6 stand alones with 2 two-parters will fare better? I don’t know but it certainly can’t be worse than what we are getting from STD.

But genre aside… I just want the shows to at least be mediocre. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a season arc or episodic.

A reboot would’ve just made a lot more sense. But sending the ship permanently to the 32nd century was smart though. It’s basically a soft reboot now. But again, that’s what people like me wanted in the first season although it doesn’t mean the show would’ve been better written, but at least less controversial. All I can say is I do think more people like the show now that it’s going forward again even if they think the show still has problems.

I also think SNW will basically try and correct most of DIS mistakes out of the gate (actual TOS uniforms is a HUGE plus lol). And I like that it will be more episodic. But to be honest, I still think it will be closer to what DIS is doing this season, ie, have a basic story in place throughout the season but the episodes will feel more standalone. Could be wrong but I don’t think its going to be like TOS or TNG where every week it feels like its own isolated story.

Or maybe it will be more like Enterprise in season 4 which was done very well IMO and a few 2 or 3 parter stories aiming for a bigger over arching theme. Again I don’t know if these writers could pull that off but it’s probably easier than a 13 episode story line based on DIS and PIC at least.

There is a reason why LDS seems more popular since it avoided all ot that. We’ll see.

Enterprise season 4 had a lot of stand alones but did have a background story show up a couple of times to suggest the oncoming Romulan war.

But I was sort of thinking maybe they could do what Enterprise did in the first half of season 3. Have a lot of stand alone episodes that also serve the overall story arc. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was successful at that sort of format too. But, those shows have MUCH longer seasons. For Enterprise essentially they had stand alone episodes that had elements that served the main story arc for about the first 2/3 of the season, then pretty much dove into the main story flat out for the final 1/3. (I guess E Squared was a side trip but the rest were all about the main story) Side note, I still think Azati Prime was one of the best cliffhangers in all of Trek. It wasn’t a season ender but the show did take a few weeks break after it aired! Dang I was itching to see the rest of that story. But I digress. I honestly don’t think Secret Hideout is capable of stand alone episodes that also serve the overall season story. So it would probably be best if there was NONE of that. If they want to end the season on some sort of cliff hanger… I guess. But would rather they didn’t.

Honestly, I’m trying to figure out why LDX is fairly popular here. I can’t be because of the humor. I sorta think many people liked it because it, for all it’s unfunny goofiness it was STILL closer to a more traditional Trek the the other shows SH was serving. I’m thinking that for a lot of people different is not what they want. They want sameness. Just look at the most popular episodes of Picard. It was the ones with Data and Riker in them.

Klingons look the same.

Wild prediction: Kovich is the Federation President.

Jean-Luc Picard is. :-)

Yeah – my thought as well :-)

I think Vance is the President disguised as “just” an Admiral.

Does the Federation President normally make appearances on a show? Or are they just mentioned in passing during episodes involving some need for diplomacy? I couldn’t name one if my life depended on it.

No, the Federation president doesn’t normally appear in the television series, but has appeared in the movies. The show’s have been written from the perspective of Starfleet so their direction interaction with the central civilian government is modest.

However, in the 32nd century with a reduced Federation where Starfleet and Federation headquarters are co-located, it would be more likely for them to interact.

Youre forgetting the earth coup two-parter of DS9 where that Admiral from Falcon Crest used a terror attack by some founder to impose martial law, and red squad was in it and so on. DS9 Homefront or something. Wanted to remove the fed president, who was part of the episode.

But did we actually SEE the Federation President?

The Federation President has only appeared in TUC as far as I recall. And in all Trek incarnations they have been super vague about the UFP government. And honestly that is probably for the best.

Also in TVH, played by an actor who was one of the goons who kidnaps Cary Grant in North by Northwest.

I don’t remember that at all. But then, I try to forget TVH even exists.

My wild prediction is the president is Klingon.

Not a big shock for us, but it would be for Discovery.

For them the alliance with the Klingons is not something that they witnessed, and the traditional allies and founding species (Andorians, Tellarites and Vulcans) are either part of the Chain or isolationist. So, this would be shocking.

But from the maps we’ve seen, the Federation headquarters is closer to Klingon space.

Alternatively, the Federation president could be Ferengi, which would be another irony given the opponents favour ruthless mercantilism.

But my bet is on Klingon leadership given Vance’s resolute commitment to honouring the values and the history.

I hope the finale is better; this was very haphazard, more of style over substance. This is was the worst episode, seemed more like a Picard episode. The bow tie was also very cheesy.

A genuine deus ex machina ending.

I’d say that Season One and Two are much better, they at least had a sense of the plot, this season has been all over the place.

Said nobody if importance, ever.

I hope the final episode doesn’t try to answer too many questions. Like this entire season, there are things that jump out which may or may not be fulfilled (Is Adira “adopted”? Will Mom show up or is that just Michael’s frame of mind?). Part of me just gives away to this style of Trek and it’s intentions even though I am not sure there is any message in any of it.

The “kid” having tantrums being the cause of the burn was a major let down for me. It felt like they didn’t have a plan.
Something like that could be an episodic story ending, not a season long one.

Labeling that as a “tantrum” is incredibly disrespectful of people with mental disorders, or of the trauma that Su’Kal would have suffered.

Seclusion is a form of torture for sentient beings that are raised in community. No holos that are not sentient themselves could replace a family.

How Su’Kal can interact with the external physical world is a question that perhaps we’ll get a better answer about than Culber’s speculation on in utero developmental changes.

I’m still expecting to find that Su’Kal is in some kind of pod or chamber and so are the Culber and Saru. Their physical representations are giving them physiological inputs (like Saru feeling vertigo) and they in turn can physically act through their simulacrums.

What if Su’Kal’s connection to that technology is enabling him to interact with both the dilithium and subspace?

Its doesnt really matter if its “disrespectfull” to anyone if you call this fictonal characters reaction a tantrum or not. Its just an expression of how lazy and fantasyish the explanation is and its not target at anyone with real psychological condtions.

Maybe they expand the explanation in this 1 Episode left. But right now its just “Emotions blew up the galaxy” and thats… meh. Is this Doctor Who or what?

Lazy? Really? Absolutely nobody guessed here guessed that burn explanation. Lazy would be: failed experiment, time travel, …

It can be disliked and it was not my preferred explenation, but it was not lazy.

Last edited 6 months ago by PPpp

I’ve said it before but it bears repeating here.

The concept of the Burn to begin with was silly and made no sense. Therefore it was reasonable that the cause of it would also be silly and make no sense. That was my prediction and I was dead solid correct. Unfortunately. Sometimes it sucks being right so often.

You know, the Adira thing was super confusing. He kept saying “they” and then he spoke about Culber. So who was he talking about? Did they adopt symbiont girl? It was actually a badly written sequence. And the scientist never wondered about his pronoun usage like a normal english speaking person would. Either that or he just didn’t care.

Note to self: if you’re going to negotiate with the head of Star Fleet, don’t eat from the fruit basket.

ST novels (back when I used to read them) used to insinuate that the replicators made recycled shit. But that’s the thing, you don’t SAY that, you insinuate. It’s more fun. Subtlety is lost on Kurtzman Trek.

Trip told us that boots and stuff were made of shit back in Enterprise. And in this case, the admiral was making a specific point by explaining that. The Federation doesn’t live glamorously, but at least they have the moral highground.

In other words, Sam doesn’t know his Trek history as well as he thinks he does, and he completely missed the point of that scene in this episode.

In other words, I don’t give a crap what his name is, he’s been nothing but a pseudo-intellectual dick on these forums, since he very first started posting. Look UP at me when I’m bending over to brush my nose into the carpet to talk to you. PS, they’re giving the episode far to much credit.

That was a pointless reply, but OK.

NOT as pointless as yours. Nowhere near in fact. Don’t even dare single me out next time. Don’t you audacity dare.

Who was the brunette imprisoned with the bridge crew? It didn’t look like Nilsson…

Lt. Ina, played by the actress who is usually in the big alien head costume. For some reason, the actress who plays Nilsson isn’t in these last two episodes.

Last edited 6 months ago by Thorny

I’ve always found the way they portray Nilsson as odd. She’s prominent in a lot of shots of the bridge but they never give her much dialogue. The actress isn’t exactly a newbie, having had recurring roles in other shows in the past, so I wonder what’s going on.

Whoever plays Nillson probably booked a competing job for those weeks and they just gave her lines to the new character. It happens a lot with guest stars. That said, the show systematically does not care to do anything of note with the rest of the bridge crew to make them stand out. They are clearly meant to be interchangeable, with only Detmer rising a little above that status because of her very small character arc this year.

I can remember the names of one-off ensigns and lieutenants on TNG and Voyager, but still couldn’t tell you who the extras doing the Morse Code were.

They’re not extras at this point, but yeah – I wish they’d get acknowledged by name more. I have no idea of their names either.

One of the problems is that the names are not being pronounced the same way by the commanding officers.

Star Trek has previously had a system to make sure names are pronounced the same way, which is how we know Data is pronounced Day-tah not Dah-ta.

In Discovery, Lieutenant Rhys has been pronounced in several different ways. Most recently, Doug Jones called him Lieutenant “Rice” which completely threw me and is too close to the way they have been pronouncing Bryce for the Comms officer.

Nilsson has been called both Neelson with a hard “e” and Nil-sen with a soft “I” and soft “e” .

That’s not why. Claiming it’s because their names are said differently is giving the writers and actors far too much credit.

The reason is they haven’t stood out in any way shape or form. They have never been needed to say or do much beyond “aye”. They are the gold shirt who sat at the station next to Uhura on TOS. No one knew their name because there was no reason to.

On Discovery, they honestly can change actors (and have) and nearly no one would notice or care.

The bridge crew thing is really odd. Like in season 2, it seemed like they were going to develop them more in the beginning of that season by seeing characters like Owo on the away mission just only by the end they had them do very little. Every season they seem to get a little more, but it’s always only a little and it’s never followed through. This season is the most Detmer has gotten so far. They made a big deal about her PTSD early on, I guess it was ‘resolved’ a few episodes ago and now she feels like a background character again. They give them a few lines, they are in the scenes but they still get waaaay less than the new cast members who show up every season like Book and Ryn for example.

They don’t all need story arcs to stand out, but it would be nice we actually learn something about them. Rys and Bryce seems to have lines every episode now but the fact that I don’t know a single thing about them 3 seasons later outside of their names and position on the ship sadly says a lot.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

Detmir had a story arc? She displayed some sort of issue that was never spoken about or dealt with again. It just up and vanished.

Secret Hideout Trek is very good at that.

That was Mr. Rhys (chief tactical officer) and Mr. Bryce (“mister random communications officer man” to Harry Mudd).

I honestly wonder if some viewers are either face blind (prosopagnosia) or have difficulty telling non-White people apart? (it is an actual thing, I’m not calling anyone racist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-race_effect#Cross-race_identification_bias)

It’s been the same bridge crew for most of the last 2 seasons – currently Joann Owosekun (ops), Keyla Detmer(conn), Rhys (replaced Landry), Bryce, Nilsson (replaced Airiam), Burnham (science), Tilly (cadet ensign, promoted from engineering to acting XO), Saru (Captain).

The fact that you know entire lines from previous episodes suggests that you are far more into the show than most. The fact is, most don’t know who these people are. And it’s not because of their gender or ethnicity. That thing you pointed out is not a real thing. It’s made up BS that goes along with a lot of other made up BS we are subjected to these days.

The fact is the people who don’t know those characters don’t know them because the entire show is not good. I’d wager that the few people who think Discovery is a great show are more likely to know those character’s full names and people who think it’s mediocre or bad are more likely to know them because they just haven’t been given a reason by the show itself to care.

To paraphrase the great Jett Reno… You just told me their names and I’ve already forgotten them.

For the record I recall what Reno said because unlike the bridge crew, she’s interesting and has done more than say “Aye”.

1) I’m not more into the show than most. I just remember when people’s names are mentioned more than once, in context of us seeing their faces, over the course of a TV series. Do not project your inability to remember names onto other people and assume we all behave similarly. I vaguely remembered the line and in fact looked it up to add it as a fun fact – one, it was a funny line and two, it was the writers lampshading the fact that they hadn’t really named any of the bridge crew at that point (which they started doing after that episode). A bit of 4th wall breaking. Maybe you missed that?
2) “Most” is also projection. You do not have any hard data to prove that the majority of Discovery regular viewers either know or do not know the names of these secondary characters. The loud minority of people that post on internet forums and comment sections is not a cross-section of the actual audience. It wouldn’t have got renewed for a 4th season if there wasn’t positive real-world audience response.
3) It is not “made up BS.” Prosopagnosia is a real condition, and my wife is a sufferer. Over time she develops coping mechanisms to identify people she has met before, and it’s easier with long-term friends, but she struggles to remember the faces of people she has only met once or twice. If you have ever met or dated anyone who couldn’t keep track of who was who while watching a movie or TV show… well… that’s why.
4) Do you have a counterstudy to the academic cross-race identification issue? If the scientific consensus is that it’s bogus, then sure. If it’s just your feelings, well, sorry, but feelings don’t count in science. Anecdotally, I do know people who have this problem (rural white relatives who don’t often interact with people of other races), but the numbers are borne out in the statistics of the study. If you don’t suffer from it, well, good for you.
5) “The fact is….” is again projection. “It’s not a good show” is an opinion. You clearly, over multiple posts over the last few years, have expressed your disdain for the show, its casting, the way they handle arcs, etc. That’s fine! Your opinion is your opinion. It is a big leap though from your opinion to an objective fact or even a consensus opinion (like a RottenTomatoes score). It is also a big leap from just saying “everything is terrible” to saying why it’s terrible and what you would have done differently.

I’m going to mention something that came up in therapy a long time ago when I was going through a rather bitter divorce. My counsellor noted that I would never state things as “I think,” or “I felt,” but “You, know, when you..,” i.e. I would never take ownership of my own feelings and opinions because I didn’t want to be responsible for them.

Rather, I would project them outward onto the world and try to state that they were universal truths. “Everyone” feels this, shares the same experience, etc. That way, I didn’t really have to face the fact that it wasn’t everyone, it was just me.

When I learned to stop doing that, I became a lot more empathetic to how others felt differently, and I became more honest with myself about what was my own reaction. I started to become more calm and able to separate objective facts from the emotions in the argument. I got better at managing disagreements. But I needed to own my feelings first, not run away from them.

There is personal opinion and experience, and collective opinion, but also, objective fact. We live in an age where these things are often muddled to manipulate how we feel, and induce us to bad acts.

We must be vigilant and disciplined mentally to be able to separate these things, show empathy to others, and have productive discussions where the facts are agreed upon, and we agree to disagree on matters of subjective feelings.

Last edited 6 months ago by Fred Javelina

You are far too wrapped up in minutia to have an honest conversation with. For example, when someone says that the team is so bad “no one goes anymore” it is not meant to be taken literally. The person did not mean that ZERO people show up. What you are doing is actually a bit of a pet peeve of mine. When someone says something that is OBVIOUSLY an opinion, it does not need to be verbally labeled as such. Example: A poster says “Doug Jones is a crappy actor.” It’s fine they think that. But it’s foolish to assume the comment is anything more than one person’s opinion.

I was going to break apart your comment with a lengthy rebuttal but have decided to just leave it at this.

ML31, look. You’re the one making sweeping statements that are almost guaranteed to be inflammatory.

It is in fact you that is hard to have an honest conversation with. Almost every post you make here isn’t an attempt to have an honest conversation, it’s an attempt to start a fight.

Why else do you think you get the reactions that you do? If you’re doing this on purpose, it’s a real waste of your time.

This is the internet. If you can’t or won’t communicate with just a little nuance, or appreciation that other people might feel differently to you, then you’re doomed to keep starting fights.

Have you not noticed how everyone on this site reacts to your posts?

It’s not that you don’t have valid opinions. But you have to learn to express them constructively.

Have the showrunners been pretty lazy about giving the supporting cast moments to build character depth? Absolutely.

But I shouldn’t have to tease that out and say “Well… I think ML31 is trying to say X,” when you write “The fact is the people who don’t know those characters don’t know them because the entire show is not good.”

You realize that you made a huge statement there that people are going to take issue with, right?

1) “People don’t know the characters” – I know who they are, so what am I, chopped liver?
2) ‘The entire show is not good’ – well, there’s absolutely no room for debate in that statement, it’s a cast duranium block with no air gaps.

I mean, I can point to external facts such as millions of worldwide viewers, thousands of people who cosplay the show at conventions, a hit line of really expensive collectible ships, the fact that Season 4 is in production and therefore *someone* out there must like it enough to invest millions of dollars in sets, staff, scripts, studio facilities….

but “The entire show is not good” does not admit external facts, it’s hermetically sealed, a tautology. “It’s Bad Because It’s Bad Because It’s Bad.” It’s impossible to argue with. Is that honest conversation?

3) So if the show is Not Good (FACT!) anyone who bothers to learn who the characters are, has bought into a Bad Show (FACT!) and therefore is… dumb or something (BURN!)

Do you see how that’s not an honest or sincere way to have a dialogue with people?

Do you not get how that might upset people?

You intend to start an honest conversation by insulting everyone in the room?

Do you go to Chicago sports bars and loudly yell “THE CUBS SUCK!… debate me?”

It is in fact an attempt to quash conversation. “I have ruled and declare myself the winner because My Opinion Is Fact, there are no other possible interpretations, please stop talking now.”

Please excuse the length of the reply, I didn’t have time to make it any shorter.

Yeah, especially in Frakes episodes. The camera seemed to linger on Nilsson – Iike we should know who she is.

Frakes loves reaction shots. It goes all the way back to First Contact.

The Emerald Chain is a democracy or something like it. At least the Federation could have a potential ally.

The Mandalorian and Luke Skywalker’s return to form. Yeah that was legendary.

2020 is the year of Star Trek.

Star Trek was the only good thing about 2020. I thought Picard and Lower Decks to be okay. Discovery season 3 is refreshing.

The new year won’t be any different.

Was hard to care about Stamets until the very very end when he confronted Burnham. His face-off with the scientist felt a bit forced to me. Partly it’s Anthony Rapp’s sometimes too-mannered acting (for my tastes, at least), but also I don’t believe the Stamets/Adira relationship yet, it just hasn’t been written and played in a way to make me accept it as a loving family dynamic so far. Like many things in Discovery, the viewer is left to fill in the blanks on things they’ve paid lip service to but not put enough work into to earn emotional payoffs.

But Stamets basically wanting to rip Burnham apart for not letting him jump the ship and get back to his partner after he sacrificed everything for her? That worked.

I disagree. I don’t think it worked at all. Mainly because his idea was NOT a bad one. If fact, Burnham should have let him do it! I have no idea what she had in mind. Maybe it was their hope that this be a mystery to be revealed next week. But if that was the case, it was a terrible way to go about it. It didn’t work. It just looked like writing and directing errors.

“the Christmas classic Die Hard.” lol.

I wouldn’t call Die Hard a Christmas movie.

Home Alone is a Christmas movie, I can get behind that.

One of the regular Star Trek novel writers Dayton Ward has a tradition of watching the original Die Hard movie for the holiday.

Ward is an ex-marine so that could be a factor.

One just has to accept that for some of us, it’s a thing.

Last edited 6 months ago by TG47

I think Christmas has more of a presence and plot-relevance in Die Hard than in, say, Batman Returns.

The bigger question is why are there no Halloween decorations in the 1985 scenes of Back to the Future?

I get it. But for some reason 30 years later somehow this has become a debate.

I wouldn’t call Die Hard a Christmas movie. I would call it an action movie that takes place near Christmas.

But then, I also wouldn’t call Field of Dreams a baseball movie. There is a lot of baseball in it. But it’s not ABOUT baseball. The Natural was ABOUT baseball. Field of Dreams was about family.

Die Hard is not a Christmas movie.

“Now I have a machine gun. Ho, ho, ho.”

That’s not a Die Hard quote Thorny!

Actually, it is.

By almost any reasonable standard it’s as much a Christmas movie as White Christmas, Miracle on 34th Street, It’s a Wonderful Life, or Home Alone.

Die Hard follows a classic Christmas-movie formula. A character who is estranged from his family because of irrelevant circumstances comes to town for the holidays. An event occurs that the character must overcome in order to be reunited with them. The crisis causes the character to become closer with their family just in time for Christmas.

The argument always seems to be that a Christmas movie has to explicitly BE about Christmas, but that would still make a movie like Home Alone on the questionable list – just about everything Christmas-related in Home Alone has a counterpart in Die Hard. I think Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

Die Hard not a Christmas movie. You think Die Hard is one. Die Hard is a holiday action movie. Plain and simple.

According to HBO Max Die Hard is under Christmas movies like It’s a Wonderful Life is deemed one, so I’m good with that! And there is Christmas music in it. So that makes it a Christmas movie!!

Yes, well HBO Max seems to think their viewers are idiots with moronic disclaimers for Gone with the Wind and Blazing Saddles. So I’m not surprised.

Die Hard is the greatest Christmas movie ever! And lots of companies were becoming more racially sensitive after the Floyd incident. Do I think it was needed, no, but I understand why it was done. These are pretty sensitive times, especially racially.

From my point of view the “times” do not justify treating your viewers like blithering idiots. I know why it was done but but that doesn’t make it any less stupid or insulting. The “why” was just as dumb as the act itself.

It’s things like that that help make actually owning the disc superior to streaming. So glad I have the Blazing Saddles BD.

Last edited 6 months ago by ML31

Batman Returns is a Christmas movie

Wow, you convinced me.

Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. Neither is Home Alone.

Is too

During the holidays, the Russians traditionally watch a flick called THE IRONY OF FATE (OR ENJOY YOUR BATH). In which some dude gets drunk and winds up in Leningrad without knowing how he got there.

If that can be a Christmas movie, DIE HARD sure can! The lack of a holiday setting was why the two recent DIE HARD sequels just sucked. Even the third sequel, with “its summer in the city” vibe, was missing something by moving to NY and not featuring McClane’s wife and Al Powell.

Home Alone is not a Christmas movie either.

There is a difference between a movie that takes place in the Christmas season vs a movie where Christmas is very much a part of the plot.

Die Hard would be the exact same movie if it were set in the dead of summer, for example.

You have a excellent point. Follow the holiday formula but also try something different.

I’m not a religious person but my family celebrates Christmas so I do it too.

Anything’s a Christmas movie if you try hard enough.

There is one, and only one, criteria for a movie to be a Christmas movie. There has to be at least one scene where “It’s A Wonderful Life” or “Miracle on 34th Street” is playing on a TV.

Thanks for the witty review, though I found the Vance – Osyraa “negotiations” engaging and full of surprises. I enjoyed the whole episode a lot and am becoming more and more convinced that serialized shows like Disco can’t be watched or discussed in the same way as episodic shows like TOS. Osyraa, for instance, became much more complex a character in this installment than was possible with her gradual introduction over time. And Michael’s character arc over three seasons has been enormous, as seen in her confrontation with Stametz. I’m looking forward to seeing how loose ends get resolved in the final show, but am sorry to see the season ending. Happy New Year to all!

I’ll be sorry to have the season end too.

It seems like we’ll be waiting until summer at least to see more new Star Trek.
Hopefully, Lower Decks S2 will be available by then. From Mike McMahan’s most recent interview, it sounds like they are fairly far along.

Prodigy should also be coming soon but given we’ve had no word on casting beyond Kate Mulgrew one has to wonder how far along they are.

The negotiation scenes were a genuinely clever way to fit in some much-needed world building and exposition.

It really establishes Vance as a leader to be respected, and brings us back to some of the anchoring diplomatic negotiations in TNG that established the norms and values of the 24th century for viewers.

Does it, though?

Me too, surprisingly (sorry to see the season end). Things are finally getting interesting.

This episode crammed in a lot of world-building and character development after what’s felt like a bit of time-wasting for most of the season.

Although, this season’s gone by waaaay faster than the previous two.

Honestly I don’t know what you guys saw. I just saw a lot of awkward talk based on things the audience had zero information about. It probably would have been better to have most of this behind closed doors and then sum it up with dialog after they left the room. Because what we saw didn’t jive with what little we saw of osyra up to that point and we had no idea what Federation guy knew about her or her group going in. They were ahead of the audience! Scenes don’t work when everyone on screen is ahead of the viewers. At least someone on screen needs to be at the level of the viewers. If there is a double cross they want to reveal later, then someone on screen needs to be the victim. Not the audience!

“It probably would have been better”
Dude, youre often writing in absolutes and statements, but you write essentially what you think, not what is. It would or would not have been better. You think it would, i think it wouldnt. I very much enjoyed the negotiation scenes.

then again
“Scenes don’t work when everyone on screen is ahead of the viewers. At least someone on screen needs to be at the level of the viewers.”

really, all the time? and a scene with two people? Tone it down a bit, man.

Get a life.

Since when is “probably” an absolute?

And I guess you haven’t noticed but pretty much EVERYONE writes what they think. Even you just now.

If you are pinning me down then I suppose there might be some cases where scenes with two characters who are both ahead of the audience it could work. I cannot come up with one off the top of my head. But for such a scene to work at some point a character needs to clue the audience in somehow. This did not happen here. So it didn’t work.

And finally, you are the one getting angry at some opinion written by a stranger on the internet. Not me. Perhaps you ought to rethink which one of us needs to “get a life”?

We saw this very differently. I found the entire conversation awkward and weird. The Federation dude knows a ton more about Osyra than we the audience does. That puts the audience at a disadvantage watching it. Because we literally know nothing about the emerald chain or Osyra herself, the entire exchange lacked drama. We had no idea what the stakes were. At all. Had they devoted two episodes to fleshing out the emerald chain and osyria and her scientis sidekick the confrontation could have actually held some weight. But no, these bozos decided they’d rather waste two valuable episodes (there are only 13!!!) on worthless garbage like the MU.

Wait… wasn’t the whole point of sending Discovery to the 32nd Century because they couldn’t remove the Spore Data from the Discovery’s computer? Now Osyraa flips a switch and it is done?

they couldn’t with the tech they had at the time. 980 years is a long time
and it was the sphere data not the spore data

They didn’t remove it. The data moved itself.

The Sphere consciousness hid itself and the data in the DOT-23s and the old movie program.

Yeah. That was also dumb.

Seems to me that the sphere data ought to have kept the ship from being taken to begin with.

Sorry but the entire concept of the sphere data undercuts every bit of drama from whatever Discovery does. The portion of last weeks episode that worked even OK only worked if you forgot the sphere data was there. If you remembered that, then none of it makes a lick of sense.

What was up with Osyraa’s accent? Did the actress (or, from a Watsonian POV, the universal translator?) decide that since she was representing a foreign government in state-to-state negotiations, instead of just acting like a thug, she should suddenly sound mid-Atlantic?

You noticed that too huh? It was strange. I literally asked myself ‘has she had this accent the entire time???’ I just assumed I wasn’t paying attention, but I’m not that focused when she shows up, so….

It is weird.

BTW I saw your post on Reddit. Later.

I thought that she was speaking with an Australian accent. Sometimes she sounded like Olivia Newton John.

She said in the interview after the first episode that she and Frakes had agreed on a Mid-Atlantic accent for Osyraa, but it was much more pronounced in this episode.

Ah, thanks. I’d missed that interview.

I would have rather Frakes worked more on making the episode coherent than worrying about an accent. Actors accents are the LEAST of the shows problems.

Yeah, whatever it was before, it was very obvious in this episode.

Perhaps Frakes felt she sounded too North American and pushed her, or it could have just been the word choices in the script leaned more to British English.

Kidder is from British Columbia, and if she went to private school, she might have picked up a second English (usually Sussex) accent depending on the school. It’s definitely a thing that is fairly common among people who grow up there and tends to switch on and off unconsciously.

Last edited 6 months ago by TG47

Er, do you have a source for any of that?

I’m BC born and raised, went to private school and have never, ever met anyone who picked up a Sussex (or any other British) accent here.

Maybe in Victoria in 1911, but certainly not anytime recently.

Kidder’s only 49, so.

Not sure where she grew up, but Wikipedia said she was born in Cranbrook, which is closer to Alberta and the Washington state border. Neither place is known for British accents.

Yeah, I’m in Alberta now, from QC originally, and nobody I know from BC – or in Canada for that matter – speaks with a British or even a transatlantic accent who isn’t a British immigrant.

There are transplanted Brits who came to BC/AB during a wave of migration in the 50s and 60s – enough to sustain small shops that import Branston pickle and good tea, but not so many that you’d hear the accent regularly; and their kids speak with normal Canadian accents (though I must say the further West you go, the more we pick up Californian vowels which annoys the eff out of me)

You’d learn to do it for acting but if anyone busted out a TOWIE accent in casual conversation and pretended it was natural, they’d get serious side-eye if not mockery.

The choice to have Osyraa suddenly amp up a previously unnoticeable transatlantic accent was an odd one and mildly distracting, but a very enjoyable episode overall.

Last edited 6 months ago by Fred Javelina

I attended university in the US and really noticed how English the accent in BC was when I came back to Canada. But that would only be the less than 50% of the population that grew up there.

Ontario doesn’t quite have the same accent, and some regions have something decidedly Scots underneath.

At any rate, it sounds like Frakes as an American director wanted Kidder to bring out something while Canadian director Norma Bailey just kept her with a more standard Canadian accent.

Really the English accent seems to be from the combination of being born in BC, having British family. and attending certain private schools.

You’re correct that it’s particularly prevalent around Victoria, and I’m even known a couple of Americans who pick it up from living there. However there are also some interior families that keep the accent. The movie “My American Cousin” had a remittance family grandmother admonishing the main character for saying water like a North American.

It is also probably more noticeable in the over 45s because they are more likely to have parents who immigrated from the UK in the 50s and 60s. Before 1970, about 50% of BC’s adult population had immigrated directly from the UK. With another 50 years of immigration and migration from other parts of Canada, it will have mellowed.

Last edited 6 months ago by TG47

Yes, that makes sense. The “British Properties” as a suburb were pretty literally British, according to Douglas Coupland. :)

The Ontario posh accent, aka ‘Canadian Dainty’ has started to fade from everyday use, but you would definitely hear it on CBC programs in the 70s and 80s. Quite definitely a hint of Irish/Scots. Gordon Sinclair and Pierre Berton both had it, Gwynne Dyer, etc. (Lots of examples in this Front Page Challenge clip from 1965. Plus you’ll recognize the announcer, Bernard Cowen, who also narrated the Wayne and Shuster specials) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7IJ7npTYrU

Episode was OK, certainly better than last weeks but there was something still missing. I like the Die Hard in a ship vibe. It’s been done in most of the shows, probably the most famous one being Starship Mine in TNG but this one just lacked for some reason. And there were some stuff that felt half done, but this is still Discovery, so yeah!

Did like the scenes between Vance and Osyraa. I’ll never look at replicators the same way lol.

Anyway, finale next week, hopefully it’ll end on a high note but yeah.

But wasn’t it clear since ENT? In the show itself it can’t be a thing because replicator technology has been around for 1000 years, therefore people can’t not know how it works and shouldn’t be surprised.

I never said it was a bad thing lol. I just thought it was funny. And it was literally suppose to be a humorous scene.

And yes in Enterprise established that they recycled things from feces, but Starfleet was very tiny then and didn’t have the resources we saw a hundred years later, so I expected that. AGAIN I have no issues if that’s what they still do a millennium later, but it was surprising.

The point is that Starfleet and the Federation Is willing to use technology to recycle waste rather than leave populations in famine, destroy habitats and hunt species (like the tranceworms) to extinction just to have better tasting, authentic and higher status food.

Vance was rubbing his values in Osyraa’s face. He knows what she is.

I didn’t say it was a bad thing, just funny. ;)

I loved watching the bridge crew break themselves out of holding! It turns out the Mirror universe versions aren’t the only ones who can fight; the Prime universe versions just prefer not to. :-)

I was laughing so hard at the robots saying “Shall we retake the ship?” that I missed the gesture they were making, but luckily my husband was watching more closely. He said, “Wait are the robots making the Vulcan salute?!” Not just for Vulcans anymore. :-)

So, do we believe the lie detector AI? I find it hard to believe that Osyraa really wanted to join the Federation and was willing to outlaw slavery and make all sorts of other concessions.

I didn’t think Frakes was all that great of an actor, but man, the guy sure can DIRECT! So good!

Oh yeah, the DOT robots are soooooo adorable! How have they not made toys out of them yet???

I have to have one making the Vulcan salute! Merchandising, are you listening?

Because they wouldn’t be marketable?

They certainly would be to Trek fans. I mean if they can introduce new model ships every week, I’m not sure why the DOTs wouldn’t be popular? I’m not suggesting baby Yoda or anything, but for DIS fans I think they would be pretty popular. They are soooooo cute!

Maybe you will see them at the next convention people can actually attend in person?

Word up…

*smile*

I’m still thinking that other than the Borg Queen, Frakes doesn’t have a great track record in directing female villains.

It’s not just the scripts, while I liked much of his direction in this episode, I think we would have seen more subtlety in Osyraa had Norma Bailey been directing Janet Kidder as she did in last week’s episode.

Yeah, I caught that. And it was yet another “groan” moment.

And again, if he data wants to retake the ship, why did it let the ship get taken to begin with? Is the sphere data just dicking around with us poor hapless humans?

And no, this episode was easily the worst directed episode of the 3rd season. If felt like entire scenes and lines went missing which led to scenes not lining up to each other or even working at all. That is a director thing. He has the final say.

Stamets, urrrggghhh, pointless character, poor actor. Could be the writing I guess.

I know. He is a threat to Discovery security. He sacrificed Discovery in the last episode by letting his personal relationship get in the way if his duty, and in this episode he planned to sacrifice the entire Federation’s security.
What was his plan after he jumped to the nebula, with transporters offline and the ship under enemy control. To ask the captors to mount a rescue mission for them, and to reveal the location of the dilithium planet?

I find this more forgivable than Book offering Osyraa the location of the Dilithium planet for Ryn’s life.

Book took away Ryn’s choice, and even if Michael was successful in securing Stamets so that the spore drive couldn’t be used, Osyraa is just a transwarp tunnel away from getting to the nebula. There may be other ships that can get in and get the dilithium.

I disagree. Figuring out how to get his mate not withstanding, jumping out of Fed HQ was the right move. For sure. And next to the planet inside the nebula was as good a place to go as any. Further, they had control of engineering. It was only a matter of time before they got computer control and take back the ship. Even without the sphere data. Which, again, shouldn’t have let the ship get taken to begin with!!!!!!

But he was crucial for the spore drive which was crucial especially in the first season… therefore not a pointless character.

But why does she even need the spore drive? Her ship seems to be in places instantly already.

Plot holes?

But why does she even need the spore drive? She can already move nearly as fast.

Sorry about that. From my point of view it looked like the other post did not go through.

Ok a better effort this week compared to last week’s episode. Frakes did a good job with what he had to work with. The story and characters did get better this week, but sorry almost anything would have been an improvement over E11. There was more to Osyraa this week, but she reverted back to her basic MO. Last week I judged her to be not much better than the Kazon, and for a while there was some hope that I had misjudged and underestimated both her and the Chain. I guess we may still get a surprise next week in the finale – let’s hope so!
Btw, I hope it is NOT a cliffhanger!
Oh yeah, staying at home and watching Discovery and the Raps on Dec 31st – I almost forgot it’s New Year’s Eve! Happy New Year to Everyone!
Let’s all hope for a much much better and healthier 2021!

Last edited 6 months ago by DeanH

Happy New Year to you to DeanH! Easily one of my favorite posters I love to interact with here! :)

We agree totally! Episode 11 was the worst episode of the season for me by far. This wasn’t amazing, but decent enough. And yes Osyraa came off a little better this time around.

As far it not being a cliffhanger, I wouldn’t get my hopes up. I have a feeling they are going that direction.

Thx Tiger2, we may not always agree but great to always respectfully interact with other fans.
Too bad about the character of Osyraa, she had so much potential to be a whole lot more than just some overachieving baddie.
As for speculating on a cliffhanger for the finale, I hope you are not correct but sadly appears to be the case.
Wierd to say, but after they provided us with a pretty good backstory for Georgiou, I am now actually looking forward to hearing about the upcoming Section 31 show more than S4 of Disco. Let’s hope they can get rid of that feeling with a strong and creative Discovery S3 finale next week!!

I’m genuinely intrigued by the S31 series with Georgiou now too.

I hope we get an announcement about greenlighting during some of the investor meetings or advertising sales events in the next couple of months.

Another odd statement I feel the need to queston.

after they provided us with a pretty good backstory for Georgiou, “

When did they do that?

Well we agree more than we disagree I think! :)

And yes I agree with you about S31. I seem to have my ups and downs about the show too, but I am more intrigued about it now then I have before now that it might be more than just sending her back to the 23rd century. I think they have a much bigger plan up their sleeves about that show now. I would love to see her in a post-Picard S31 show. Or even tie S31 to fighting the Temporal Wars. But we’ll see.

I could be wrong about the finale being a cliffhanger, but nothing feels very resolved at this point beyond they know how the Burn was caused (sigh). Maybe they will end it by killing Osyraa (PLEASE DO!!!) but I do have a feeling they may just be dropping another big shoe next week instead.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tiger2

I don’t see how one could praise Frakes for this directors mess. Did you not feel like the entire episode was disjointed and oddly paced? For me this is a new thing because more often than not the problems with the episodes or show in general has NOT been the directing. But here it was a major problem.

What’s up with Book’s “I’m only doing this because it’s the only way to save Michael” change of attitude?

I thought he wanted into Starfleet.

What do you mean? Book and Michael are a couple.

By the way, I’m thinking about moving to Canada after college.

Not trying to be political but US politics is stressful enough.

I’m getting fed up with the United States as a country. Canada is a place where I can be happy.

Maybe Spain or France in Europe are another option.

Last edited 6 months ago by Faze Ninja

Yes Book and Michael are a couple, but he was also buying into the “good of the many” values of Starfleet after seeing what they did for his home planet in Sanctuary.

In this episode, Ryn was willing to stand up to Osyraa and made the ultimate personal sacrifice for the good of the many.

Book followed Tilly’s plan begrudgingly and gave up knowledge of the existence of a dilithium source to forestall Osyraa’s execution of Ryn. This was for naught, but it shows that he’s not ready to make hard choices either.

Ninja, recognizing this is a particularly stressful in any society just now, if you’re still serious about Canada in a year or so you might consider completing a degree in Canada as an international student.

You would need to check Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada for the latest rules, but international students do have a pathway to stay and work and become permanent residents.

Another example as to why episodic is better. These Disco 2-3 parters (and arc from earlier seasons) just leaves you wanting and not in a good way, but in an unsatisfied way. Seemingly in a way that is a lot worse than in earlier series.

I feel the opposite.

Episodic is a good way to go but so is loose serialization.

I like the more gentle seasonal and series long arcs with occasional 2 and 3 parters
midseason or at the seasonal finale as was more common in the late 90s (DS9, Buffy, Farscape). And at least we’re no longer expected to wait until after a summer hiatus to see part two of a two parter.

Heavy serialization seems to only work well when there is a strong set of novels to lay things out from the start.

I found BSG and Lost utterly disappointing after the first couple of seasons. The Expanse is really exceptional in holding it together.

In general episodic vs serialized is not inherently better or worse than the other. But in Secret Hideout’s case, I think there is enough evidence that they have no idea how to properly map out a season long story arc. At all. If they went to an episodic format there is a better chance that one or two episodes could be pretty good and stand out. Since this group lacks the ability to make a season arc, the bad story sticks with the entire season from beginning to end. There are no “good” episodes because they just serve the overall story. Especially so in short seasons. Which Discovery is.

I don’t know if it’s just Secret Hideout’s problem.

CBS as a broadcaster is known for not doing serialized programming. The way they finance the shows seems to require production to be done as if everything was episodic. Shooting a serialized show when the scripts haven’t been all written seems daft, but it seems to be the CBS way.

I’m fairly sure it is Secret Hideout’s problem. I see other productions able to map out short season arcs. Even when the show is not that good the problem was not the story arc. It’s usually other things.

I’m not 100% certain how many shows are actually made by CBS themselves. Normally other production companies make the shows. But then, I don’t watch any CBS over the air scripted shows so I couldn’t tell you. I will admit to watching Survivor and The Amazing Race as the wife likes them. But that’s it for my eyes and CBS. There aren’t even sports on CBS I watch.

I felt like Jerry Seinfeld toward the end of this one: “Oh no, there’s not enough time to wrap it up! A *three*-parter?? I was all ready for it to be over!!”

All on me, of course.

I know Memory Alpha says 800 (not counting movies), but I can’t find their exact formula and keep coming up with 797 (798 next week). I think they count The Cage twice and maybe Where No Man Has Gone Before twice, but what else? The all black and white Cage as well?

I have to say, it’s good drama and believable, but seeing all the relationship drama among what are supposed to be serious military personal, I’m reminded of certain, ahem, arguments that have been made about military qualifications over the last number of decades and wonder if Trek isn’t- inadvertently to be sure- trying to prove them.

TAS included? Short Treks?

Yes, TAS and Short Treks included.

I got the answer. Two-part episodes broadcast in one night counted as one, films included, 801 this week. Add each half of the two-parters and it goes to 811.

Starfleet has a military chain of command structure but it’s very different from a navy per se. A navy doesn’t have anthropologists, geologists, historians, astrophysicists, astromycologists, exobiologists, etc on board. Everyone may have combat training and need to maintain a proficiency rating with a phaser, but the majority of the crew are not soldiers. Starfleet doesn’t send out troop transports filled with MACOs, ground assault vehicles etc etc. There’s no rules on fraternization. The philosophy of the Federation is to challenge and explore yourself, and we can only really learn about ourselves in our interactions with others. For all we know as long as it doesn’t affect your judgment it may be encouraged.

I hear that. (Although the US military does have a lot of those positions today.) The catch is in your last line- I’m seeing a lot of judgment being affected here.

I guess in a Starfleet sense it only matters if there’s a command relationship or if you’re observed to be emotionally compromised. I think they expect relationships to form on deep space multi-year assignments. :)

I’m really enjoying this season, much better than the first two. My concern right now is that they are leading to Discovery’s abandonment in the nebula too soon. I say that based on Zora in this season. It would be awesome to enjoy a few seasons of the show in the 32nd century before heading to Discovery’s “end.” Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping I am wrong.

Last edited 6 months ago by ReginaFalange

There was much to like about that episode (the negotiations, Stamets vs “Riker” in a wheelchair…) but overall it’s just not a good plot for the grand finale… It’s like having the Jabba scenes at the end of Ep. VI… Osyraa should have never been the big baddie… She’s a distractor, an additional side villain. She isn’t main plot material…

Again, it would have been better had she been in the series all along rather than just show up at the end. But that would mean really thinking your story through. Something Secret Hideout has difficulty with.

Did anyone else catch Ossryaa’s order at the end to have the other ship prepare to start firing again on Disco? What on earth for?

She orders her ship to fire on the shield/distortion field that surrounds Federation HQ, not on Discovery.

The season as a whole has been a colossal jump in quality from the past two, even though this episode wasn’t the best nor the worst it was still quite enjoyable.

I’m happy.

And I’m keen to see how S4 will be plotted out given that they will have had time to polish all the scripts before production started and to make tough choices about what to shoot.

Covid will have brought a lot more discipline to preproduction as well as held off pressure from the studio to rush the start of shooting before the writers have completed their work.

Last edited 6 months ago by TG47

This is a streaming show. They really have no deadlines. They had all the time they wanted to make S3 work before shooing. Yet look at what we got. I have no faith that they will use their time wisely. There is no evidence they would.

ML31 you sound like you are making the same assumptions that I was.

However, listening to interviews with Kurtzman and others running the show, it is very clear that they are expected to start producing the shows on a certain timetable even when CBSAA hasn’t finalized its release schedule. It sounds as though the financial flows are set up that way.

I did not consider budgetary restrictions forcing a schedule. That does make sense. But it still isn’t nearly as hard a wall as needing the show by a certain date. There is still a lot more leeway on streaming shows than traditional networks shows.

So they made Osyraa an interesting character for 5 minutes and returned to good old baddy afterwards?

Of course. Osyraa is more than she appears to be, but she is also exactly what she appears to be.

They did? When was that? I must have missed it.

Zareh didn’t get medical care because he is still earning the money to pay for it.

No idea why Ryn wasn’t patched up unless he didn’t want to be.

Perhaps he wasn’t ready to accept the gift.

Best episode of discovery yet!

Book telling Michael to save the day was cool, the references to Die Hard, and Power Rangers were great – and the Sh*t scene made me think of Austin Powers with the coffee which made me chuckle! And was the discussion of the Prime Directive a reference to Star Trek Into Darkness? They had a pre warp civilisation in STID that were influenced by people with advanced technology so I think that was a clear reference to STID. Michael’s emotional intensity is a clear reference to Shatner in TOS as well – she does so well to maintain such a high level of emotion each week, makes me feel like I’m watching classic trek. Oh and the nerve pinch made me think of Spock which makes sense since Michael grew up on Vulcan.

Tilly is the best number one since Number One, and I hope next week she goes full on action hero with the help of the bots – which seem to be a reference to battle droids in Star Wars. In fact, I love how the constant references to “the galaxy” in DSC give the whole show a SW feel – old trek constantly kept talking about “the sector” or “the quadrant” which by the 32nd century the federation would clearly span the whole galaxy, including the dominion and the Borg, so that makes sense.

I couldn’t believe that Stamets had the nerve to yell at Michael after all she’s done for the crew. I hope he apologises next week.

Looking forward to next week’s episode – this show keeps getting better and better!

You know… Aurelio, in Brazil is just a name for one of the most respected, fat and famous dictionaires for the Portuguese language, LOL

I’m guessing it’s a reference to Marcus Aurelius, the last of the “Five Good Emperors” and a Stoic philosopher. We’ll see if he can resolve his feelings of loyalty with his sense of right and wrong….

Most outlandish possibilities for Federation President:

  1. Kirk, played by Shatner
  2. Wesley Crusher
  3. Q
  4. ???

Another lost sibling of Spock? The Holo-Doc, who became immortal?

“Like with Ryn’s antennae, why couldn’t Zareh use any of the available 32nd tech to fix his mangled hand?” Or fix whatever is wrong with Aurelio so he doesn’t wind up in a Pike chair (granted he can speak but still…)

Or if not that then come up with a more advanced mode of movement than a hoverchair? Does not making artificial life include not using the mechanical aspects to create better prostheses?

The actor who plays Aurelio has ALS and so can’t stand/move for long periods of time on set, so they built the “hover chair” for him so that he could do the part.

I’m sure he could have. But they needed to show the audience that his survival was a struggle. So… This. Of course they could have thrown in a line about how Osyra was going to allow him to get that fixed after their little Federation plan or something…

The Chain is a world of resource scarcity.

There is no universal medical coverage that will provide free care and access to technology, and research on treatments for their conditions may not be a priority in their capitalist Chain economy.

The scientist Aurelio was clear in his story that whatever health care he received from Osyraa’s organization was something that he felt indebted for. His condition was genetic and his parents did not have the means to pay. He is grateful for Osyraa’s private donations of medical care that kept him alive, able to do research and have a family.

Zareh may have paid for treatment already and may be earning either the money or the access to get more.

Coming from a society where everything is transactional, Ryn may have hesitated to accept more than the most basic medical care from a Starfleet ship until he was ready to fully commit to becoming a supporter of Starfleet.

Last edited 6 months ago by TG47

Wow… I didn’t get anything like that at all. In fact, what floating chair guy said was still a little vague. A lot of different presumptions could be made from it. But the most likely (assuming writer competency which may not apply here, I grant you) conclusion is such details don’t matter in telling the story at hand.

I can almost hear one of the Dot-23’s saying “Foreign Contaminant!” before eliminating a bad guy (or woman)…

It took me a couple of days to figure out who Aurelio reminded me of, but I’ve settled on Michael Flanders, of Flanders and Swann. And I think it was the in the back of my head before I even noticed the wheelchair. Or consciously noticed it, at least.

A good way to bring the actor back.

And I didn’t know it was a conscious homage to Die Hard then, but the second I saw the bare feet, I thought, “I hope there’s no broken glass!”

Yep. Her alone in the ship was Die Hard enough already. Then they had to add her losing a shoe. (eyeroll)

By the way, guaranteeing no trial is a very good way to get dictators to stand down. It may be distasteful, but when that Spanish prosecutor started with Pinochet, many pointed out that he was making it a lot less likely that any other dictator would ever agree to step down peacefully.

Except the Admiral knew that not holding Osyraa accountable was impossible and the agreement would be hollow without it.

1. Osyraa said herself that people still believed in the Federation as a symbol of “hope.” The only thing that’s probably kept what’s left of it together is that belief. To make an agreement with an organization that’s committed war crimes, condones slavery, and routinely violates Starfleet’s highest principle (The Prime Directive) would undermine that faith without a public example that the Emerald Chain was willing to change and answer for their conduct.

2. Osyraa wanted peace, but peace on her terms. The Admiral knew that she wanted to pull the strings from behind the scenes. Also, some of the terms she lays out didn’t sound like the Emerald Chain had any intentions of fundamentally changing. She mentions anti slavery legislation but legislation isn’t law until it’s passed, and even then having a law doesn’t exactly mean anything if the people who’re supposed to enforce are corrupt. Osyraa also said the armistice would entail a “15-year transition” for the Emerald Chain to stop violating the Prime Directive. That’s a LONG time to basically stop exploiting pre-warp civilizations.

Yes indeed, you make some very good points. I suppose a big difference is that Chile (and Spain, etc.) had complete changes of government, to democracy, so some allowances could be made.

Maybe Vance was pushing her to the point where he could see that she was beginning to lie, and then he knew all he had to.

These are tough questions about regime change, and I agree with this who say Osyraa and the Chain leadership are seeking to benefit from the positive political capital of the Federation while maintaining their influence as oligarchs.

Vance has likely studied enough history to know why that would be problematic.

South Africa might be a better model than Chile. While punishment wasn’t the objective, there were public truth finding hearings and trials in order to enable the society to go forward. It also effectively removed the criminals from influence.

Compare that to Spain, where the impact of the buried history of the Franco Regime is resurfacing in times of difficulty.

Screencaps now online for your viewing pleasure…

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sc-DSC3-12.php

Dear Tony and Laurie,

For your podcast for the Disco finale, I was wondering if you guys can discuss how these stories in S3, if any, are an allegory to modern times? What makes Star Trek unique is that it says something about today’s world or the human experience. I must admit, I’m not finding much in this season, but I could be wrong. I would like for you two to discuss any insights into today’s world you may have found and share your insights.

Big fan,
Kevin

I have to say this is probably the worst directed episode of the season. It totally felt like MANY scenes and lines of dialog were left on the cutting room floor. At least I hope they were. If this was the script they shot then the writers are even worse than I thought.
At the beginning I was sorta interested in what was going on. But then things just got dumb. Book got to Fed HQ awfully fast. Since ships can move that fast why do they need a spore drive? And how does he even get inside the shuttle bay? Ships shields are down but there is still a force field in place. I was also wondering why Burnham didn’t just beam in and out of everywhere she went? And why didn’t the pawns just beam straight to Burnham’s location? They introduce this tech then forget it exists.
Once again there was yet another nauseating moment when the bridge crew (of still largely people the viewers don’t know) smiled and jumped for joy when they heard St. Burnham’s voice. As if they know she is essentially Wonder Woman and will personally save all of them. That has got to be the only reason such a joyous response under such dire circumstances. At best they should have acknowledged that there is not a bit of hope as there is someone out there. But they severely overreacted. That has got to be the directors fault.
I failed to understand why she didn’t just have Stammet’s jump out of there. Pretty much to anywhere. Once jumped they would have stranded Osyra. Left her super duper warship with here super duper weapons long behind. Would have been much easier to deal with the people left on board. And I have no idea why she was so very sad doing what she was doing. But I guess there is some sort of clause in SMG’s contract that says she must at least tear up if not outright cry in every other episode. Even when no scene calls for it. This severely felt like a director’s mistake. Another director mistake. Osyria walks out of the room and then magically appears on Discovery in an instant. When she walked out I was thinking, “Where the hell is SHE going?” Then she was on the bridge and I thought “How the hell did she get THERE?” And “WHY did they just let her leave?” So many idiot holes here and it made the episode impossible to enjoy.
This season had so very many mistakes. With this group of characters and actors the show can never be good. But it still is possible to make something palatable. The Burn was really a “who cares” event (and an amazingly illogical one) but I was following along to see where it was going. But the limited nature of a short season really got in the way. With about 6 or 10 more episodes they really could have fleshed things out. They could have done whole episodes about Osyra and her scientist boyfriend. Who feels like he is nothing more than a tool to turn on her. Would have been much better if we got at least a few episodes where we got to see what was going on with her and him and tell us about them. They had a chance to make her more complex. But it requires a ton more than just some never before seen character to tell us he thinks there is “more” to her. All we have seen was evil Lorca level badness. She is just a mustache twirller. It’s amazingly obvious she never had any intent to hold up to this accord she was proposing. But had we had more time with her maybe it would be easier to buy.
Sorry. This turned out to be longer than I had hoped. Just suffice to say that the major issue with this episode was the bad directing.

Last edited 6 months ago by ML31

“Book got to Fed HQ awfully fast. Since ships can move that fast why do they need a spore drive?”

It seems like the Borg’s transwarp conduits still exist but are extremely dangerous to use. If I had to guess, when The Burn happened, ships within the conduits were destroyed and the debris litters the things with dangerous obstructions.

That brings up the question of the very nature of these conduits. Do ships need to be shielded to be in them? What happens to material that gets sucked into them? Why would the debris not get spit out of them upon destruction? Why would ships explode in the conduits to begin with? They wouldn’t have an active warp drive going on to use them. And since it seems people were using the conduits, it seems that warp drive would at least be phasing out by the time the burn hit.

I don’t think your explanation holds up. Sorry.

What happened to the transwarp conduits, when they collapsed or were destroyed in Voyager’s Engdame? Did Picard pick that up?

A good question that I had forgotten about.

ML31 TransWarp conduits just move a ship at warp along faster over greater distances in a network that was constructed for the purpose.

So, remnants of a network built by the Borg or others could be used, but they would still require a warp drive and dilithium.

That feels like a supposition as I don’t think it was ever really explained. I very much got the impression the issue was just entering one. Once in there are “currents” (for lack of a better word) that whisk the ship to it’s destination. Warp drive had nothing to do with it. Even this show seems to support that implication as dilithium is now monumentally scarce so they use the conduits to get around. Saving their limited dilithuim for other uses.

Last edited 6 months ago by ML31

So the professor in the wheelchair decides to have a rethink on osyiras character after all these years…after a one minute chat with Stamets …..

Not just the one minute chat, the scientist got to see Osyraa execute Ryn and take Book away for questioning.

Imagine a top scientist at MIT or CalTech in a parallel situation:
– that scientist might not dig too deeply to consider how their research was used and it might not be publicly available if it was for a private corporation or the US Department of Defense.
– such a scientist might have also previously received a scholarship and/or fellowship for their education and even medical care through a private foundation in a society without universal medical care coverage.
If another scientist that they respect challenged them, that might be enough for them to look at the way prisoners are treated if they found themselves at a Black Site with their funder.

Yep. The instant Stammets started talking to him it was obvious this guy would be the trope of the important tool of the bad guy having a change of heart and betraying a former leader. The fact that they ALSO showed him watching her deal with Book doesn’t make his decision any more believable. He was with her for years. For him to be THAT blind to what she does, even if he has never witnessed the rumors and hearsay, then he has got to be the most naïve being in the galaxy. It is a trope that has been used often. But it has also been used better than presented here. The situation is a gigantic stretch for the viewer to buy as a reasonable one on the surface. Let alone under the tiniest of scrutiny.

I didn’t get Osyraa’s line about how the Federation must acknowledge “that capitalism is already happening within the Federation.” Why? Is the Federation somehow pretending that there’s no exchange of goods and capital within its territory? Is it claiming that it’s completely free of any commerce and all it produces is the fruits of a planned economy? Is the Federation supposed to admit to the surprise of everyone that property and money have actually secretly exchanged hands within its dominion, as if that’s unexpected?