Review: ‘Star Trek: Lower Decks’ Takes The Low Road In “Mugato, Gumato”

“Mugato, Gumato”

Star Trek: Lower Decks Season 2, Episode 4 – Debuted Thursday, September 2, 2021
Written by Ben Rodgers
Directed by  Jason Zurek


With a story tied into Trek lore and themes along with more welcome exploration of our characters, “Mugato, Gumato” misses a step by relying on uncharacteristic lowbrow gags for its humor.

I could do this with my eyes closed… oh, wait

WARNING: Spoilers below!

A conspiracy of ensigns

A “friendly” match of anbo-jyutsu sets up the key dynamic and strikes the tone of the episode. Boimler and Rutherford conspire to finally beat badass Mariner after their months of secret training at the ultimate form of Human martial arts, but once this predator senses a real challenge, she goes all Tarantino on them. Beckett again is able to combine her workout routine with a way to get in touch with her inner psychopath, leaving her two opponents literally barfing, bleeding, and begging for mercy. But buckle up, because this episode is just getting started on testing the boundaries of what this series can—or should—do.

If all that wasn’t enough to make them wary of Mariner, Sam and Brad are told a rumor by the shady ship’s bartender Honus—literally whenever he talks he gets all shadowy—that she is a Starfleet black ops agent, who possibly killed half the crew on one of her previous postings. It’s true that Mariner—if that’s her real name—kicks ass and is complex and mysterious, but was being their friend was all part of a deep cover for Starfleet’s “perfect weapon”? Sure. Let’s go with that.

Things have gotten weird ever since the bar installed the ominous spotlight

Hopped up on conspiracy theories, Boimler and Rutherford warily join Mariner on an away team to Frylon IV to find a wayward Mugato that doesn’t belong on the planet. Shaxs leads the team, channeling his inner Bear Grylls in a way that includes—oh god, ewww—repeatedly tasting Gumato dung to track his prey. But this turns out to be much more than another animal control assignment as they come upon some old-school energy whip-wielding Ferengi harvesting Mugatus for their horns. The Bajoran security officer may have gone to the Black Mountain and returned from the dead, but he hasn’t lost his leap before looking approach, which creates chaos and the release of he horned ape-things, and somehow ends with him getting stabbed—and possibly eaten?—by Mariner. Wait, maybe the rumors are true!

Things go from bad to worse to the unspeakable as Brad and Sam go on the run from the released Gumatos, and Mariner herself. Unfortunately, a fun but all too brief meetup with a Mugato expert named Patingi reveals an Outback Tellarite who turns out to not be what he seems—see a pattern here?—and he ends up getting his head bitten off… gross. Things get even weirder when the boys try to hide in a log that ends up offering two Mugatu just the support they need for some vigorous—and quite graphic—together time. Oh, and a third Mugatu hangs out to watch, and what he does with his horn shall not be mentioned again. Also, gross!

Yeah, this one’s got us scratching our heads too

You will be scanned

Tendi isn’t involved with all the conspiracy and Mugato weirdness, busy continuing her quest to finally get some respect from Dr. T’Ana. She’s sick of getting pushed around and left out of the cool medical stuff happening in sickbay, so she goes full-on with a BS assignment: Following T’Ana’s order to hunt down those reluctant to take their physicals and told to “scan their asses,” D’Vana seeks to find her own inner badass.

After a fun montage of scanning the reluctant, she is just left with one holdout, Dr. T’Ana herself. Like a monologuing supervillain, the doctor slow-claps Tendi’s discovery, revealing she never believed the ensign had it in her to suss her out. Doc goes full-on feline-avoiding-a-bath, leading the poor medical tech to chase “bad Dr. T’Ana!” through the ship.

No more Miss Nice Orion

Tractor factor

Captain Freeman also gets her own little side story as she stews over Starfleet assigning her another animal control mission. Nothing seems to be going her way; even simply tractoring a ship leaving the planet results in its destruction. Poor Captain Hyde—another fun character for Paul F. Tompkins—can only be satisfied with a replacement Federation shuttle, along with all the knick-knacks in her office. She is having almost as bad a day as poor Sam and Brad hiding in that… actually we shan’t talk of that. Her day gets even worse when Admiral Hubbie calls to let her know about a compensation scam run by an alien pretending to get his ship destroyed. Oh yeah, she’s pissed.


Welcome to Mugato Land

When Mariner catches up with the boys, they finally confront her with the truth of her black ops Starfleet ninja past, which turns out to be a big lie… which she started herself. Of course she did. In another nice moment of growth, Beckett reveals her bit of self-rumor mongering is all part of building her mystique and keeping people at a distance, but the sweet bonding moment is cut short by the Ferengi capturing her. With badasses Shaxs and Beckett as prisoners, freeing them and the away team is left to the Geek Squad, who use the power of their favorite board game Diplomath to get the Ferengi to turn their operation into a nature preserve for the Mugatu; apparently, there is profit in that, thanks to merchandising.

As for Tendi, her T’Ana situation was solved by using a broken arm to lure the doc to come to her aid, allowing for a quick scan, a level of commitment that finally earns her some sickbay respect. And the captain gets her groove—and her shuttle—back by sending Mr. Hyde to work for the Ferengi, shoveling that stuff Shaxs was tasting. Ick. Speaking of the Bajoran security officer, he was patched up nicely by Dr. T’Ana, who showed a whole new level of bedside manner… so yeah, they are totally a thing now too.

So all is well again in the galaxy. Lessons were learned, growth was had, and what was seen on Frylon IV, stays on Frylon IV.

Life finds a way


Aim higher

Most of the elements are in place for this to be another good if not great episode of Lower Decks. The premise offers a fun spin on the classic Muguto from TOS, having some inside fun on how no one can agree on the pronunciation… or spelling. Isn’t that neat and inconsistent? Indeed it is. And we lean into core Star Trek themes like conservation and diplomacy, or in this case, Diplomath The Game™. Once again, season two offers deeper exploration of our characters, with some nice development for both Tendi finding some agency in sickbay and Mariner shedding more of her complex shell.

However, Lower Decks is first and foremost a comedy, and the show works best when that humor comes organically from character. Too often “Mugato, Gumato” bent our characters in order to service the humor, and too often that humor was of the cheap and easy variety. Excessive violence and coarse jokes about ex-wives, poop, kinky sex, and drugs felt out of place. At the risk of going all Marge Simpson, we have come to expect more from Lower Decks. Raw and rude humor can be done, perfected by shows like Futurama and Rick & Morty, but this episode lacked that level of finesse.

This is one log entry best left alone

But again, there is still much to like in the episode, including some fun new characters like Paul F. Tompkins’ scammer captain Mr. Hyde and the all-too-short-lived Patingi, the dubious Mugato whisperer. Trek fans can also delight in seeing the return of truly villainous Ferengi complete with energy whips, and Mariner’s meta callout to “The Last Outpost” is allowed because of Lower Decks doing a better job at making the Ferengi a threat than that failed TNG effort.

It may not be the Cerritos brig, but Mariner can make this work

Final thoughts

“Mugato, Gumato” is a bit of a mixed bag. It’s great to see our core characters continue to grow and watch them raise each other up using the power of math and diplomacy, just like a good Star Trek show should. But the overly broad humor used here triggers some of the early concerns about the show before it premiered and proved it could find a way to mix humor and Star Trek together. The result is a sometimes passable half-hour of entertainment, but the weakest entry of the second season, and possibly the series.

Say that to me one more time


Random stuff

  • Episode writer Ben Rodgers also voices Commander Stevens.
  • Stevens has weak bones.
  • Stardate 58036.4
  • One of Mariner’s previous ship postings was the USS Atlantis. (She has also served on the USS Quito and two other ships prior to the Cerritos).
  • Tellarite blood is purple… poor, poor Patingi.
  • Kayshon teaches karate.
  • Rutherford accuses Mariner of being part of Section 31. Boimler mentioned Section 31 in S1, showing it isn’t exactly a secret to the crew of the Cerritos.
  • Before retrieving it, Freeman gave Mr. Hyde the Type 6A Shuttle Joshua Tree. Ransom said they can say they lost it in a black hole, which apparently had happened before.

Laugh lines

  • Pretty sure we would know if she is the perfect weapon. Most of the time she’s napping.
  • Keep your pips on, Billups.
  • Dude, I’m talking alien pronunciations here, that’s like your favorite thing.
  • Mugato dung. Fresh, tangy.
  • I think he likes to watch.
  • Maybe the old Tendi was a pushover, but a lot’s changed since earlier today!
  • Our brains are inside of our skins.
  • You guys are what? Some creepy, throwback, “Last Outpost” style of Ferengi?
  • Of course, I’ve heard of Quark!
  • Sorry, we thought you were a secret super-spy that was ready to kill us, by the way.

This is going to make for a difficult entry in Stevens’ mustache log

More to come

Every Friday the All Access Star Trek Podcast covers the latest news in the Star Trek Universe. The podcast is available on Apple PodcastsSpotifyPocket CastsStitcher and is part of the TrekMovie Podcast Network. On Saturday, we’ll post our weekly analysis of Easter eggs and references for this episode.

New episodes of Star Trek: Lower Decks premiere on Thursdays on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV Sci-Fi Channel in Canada, where it’s also available to stream on Crave. It is available on Amazon Prime Video internationally on Fridays. It will debut in Latin America on Paramount+ in September.

Keep up with all the news and reviews from the new Star Trek Universe on TV at

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That’s the Power of Math People!

Eating shit. Throwing up. “F” bombs. I’m done with this piece of garbage.

It is getting a bit ridiculous, at this point.

Oh, did I forget to mention the Magatu jerking off with his horn then the Maguto 3-some sleep over. This is NOT Star Trek.

That must be the reason why it’s called “horny”…


So you’re says Picard never jerk one out on the Enterprise? Come on.

This is Star Trek

This is Star Trek. You don’t have the right to decide what is and what is not Star Trek.

*thinking about Roddenberry’s interest in, say Ferengi sex lives*

You’re right. Definitely not Star Trek.

I’ll give you the first two lol. But throwing F bombs have been part of the show since day one. Dr. T’ana throws them the most like a football lol. And at least they are bleeped out here for some reason but isn’t on PIC or DIS. Don’t understand why the differences between the shows but a lot of times the bleeps makes it ‘funny’ I guess.

Okay, bye.

Yeah, I liked the idea and S1 was mildly entertaining but it’s not really hitting the mark at this point

Agreed. Just pathetic.

Best episode ever!

Everyone on Reddit loved it.

And we are done with you! Now let’s go our separate ways. We hope we will never see you again.

WTF? He has a different opinion than you have, so what?

worst episode ever.

This episode contained two elements I personally found over the top: the violence in the opener and the mugatos’ orgy (dragged too much in my opinion).
Hope that these and similar things will not reappear anytime soon.
Otherwise it had its share of good stuff – Tendi working on the list, Boimler and Rutherford saving the day in a refreshing way.

Yup, these two elements mean that this episode won’t be one that I’ll be watching with our teens.

The Mugato scene will unquestionably lead to another round of “Why do they have to do that?” & “Tell us when it’s over” as they bury their faces. Followed by “No, not Star Trek too!”

Paramount+ is promoting this as a show for teens. Unfortunately, they have missed the point that a lot of teens who are still figuring out their own development aren’t either amused or titillated by weird sex jokes. All the more so for geeky teens who are a significant part of Trek’s core audience.

And the bloody end to the enthusiastic but book-educated tracker would be the kind of thing that would be an interest killer for one of our kids. We barely convinced the them to try Trek again after Icheb’s torture and death in Picard. This would be the final straw.

Well… P+ and even this site has always referred to it as an “adult” comedy. Last I checked unless your teens are over 18 the show isn’t supposed to be aimed at them.

Although up to this point the show always felt like it was aiming at the single digit ages. But I wouldn’t have a problem with most teenagers seeing it. I would only not recommend it not because of content but because they will not laugh at anything.

I think the humor of the humping mugatos was precisely because it went on so long. Cringe humor timing.

Actually it was telegraphed very early on. And when she was trapped, combined with the game they were playing it was obvious they were going to offer the Ferengi a business proposition. Duh…. Some of the old Trek references can sometimes be clever but the plotting of the episodes so far never have been. They are just bad stories and we aren’t distracted from that by laughing.

Perhaps they should have highlighted the ‘R’ rating more boldly so you could have avoided your tender sensibilities being offended. Boo-hoo.

Indeed. I noticed that, but brushed it off and proceeded to watch the show with my kid. Whoops! LOL.

He remains undamaged by a half-hour cartoon, I am pleased to report. And can’t wait to see the next one.

There was an F bomb in it?

I’m sad to say this, as I truly love Lower Decks, but this was the first episode that left me feeling disappointed. The humor didn’t hit home, and much of the story was too childish even for a Rick and Morty-style cartoon. Sure, some of the in-jokes (mugato, mugatu, gumato and Last Outpost Ferengi) were funny as hell… but this episode is, for me, the weakest one by far. Oh, well. Even great shows have bad episodes now and then.

Sorry to hear that Lorna! I am genuinely shocked though, I thought I would come here seeing everyone praising the episode and its the complete opposite lol. I haven’t watched it a second time yet (which I do with every LDS episode) but maybe I’ll look at it a little more critically. I don’t know why but I really enjoyed it. But yeah even I admit it probably went a bit too far in some places but not enough to hate the episode.

Hopefully the next one will be better for you since you really do like the show. But I’m clearly in the minority on this one!

Tiger2, if our teen kids see this episode, there will be almost zero chance of their agreeing to watch any new Trek with me again.

There really are a couple of lines crossed that would be irredeemable for our teens, which is unfortunate because Paramount+ is promoting the show as targeted for a teen audience.

I mean this as politely as possible, but if this was too racy for your teens, just what can they watch or read? Bambi?

I tend to agree, Pearl Clutcher. If my kid was 14 he wouldn’t be harmed to weirded out by any of it. But he’s not into Trek. He has my password and can log into P+ when I subscribe but he tells me he doesn’t watch anything on that service. And honestly if I were trying to get someone into Trek I would pretend that LDX doesn’t exist.

Well Lorna… Take how you feel about this episode and extend it to EVERY episode. That is how I feel about the show. The humor swings and misses the bulk of the time and the stories are all extremely childish. But make no mistake… Do not compare this show to Rick & Morty. Who just had a good rebound season from the their weaker previous one. R&M is funny. They also tend to not have B or even C stories. They know how to craft a comedic episode.

BTW.. The spelling, pronunciation and the Last Outpost references were just there so fans can grin and say “I get that!”. Maybe a little clever. But that’s as far as it goes. But often those references just aren’t, I don’t like to use this word but here it is… Organic.

Sounds like a sad “Cards Against Humanity” edition of Lower Decks, where mere shock and crudity is mistaken for actual humor, cleverness, and wit :\ … in other words, either simply lazy or simply incapable of anything more intelligent. So far the show has demonstrated an ability to not need to stoop to the lowest common denominator. Hopefully not a sign of things to come

“Hopefully not a sign of things to come”

You mean, like literally jumping the shark in cetacean ops?

Cetecean ops have been canon since TNG.

It’s just that they’ve always been offstage.

So, of course this show can’t let that go.

I don’t even remember cetacean opps in TNG. Even on my recent rewatch I don’t recall it. But my gut is telling me that if it was mentioned then it was probably said as some sort of gag. Because it’s just too stupid not to be.

Yeah but that is true for all their gags. They think it funny to just mention an old episode title, for example. How is that not lazy? Their non Trek related gags are born out of tired old tropes, too. Sorry but the bulk of the writing on this show is lazy. And this episode is no exception.

Guess I’ll be keeping an eye out for Chris Kula and M.Willis penned eps from here onwards. For me, LDS S2x02 & S2x03 have been the most enjoyable Trek episodes since ENT finished. My Fridays (I’m the UK) have felt special these last few weeks as a result. Hopefully it’s just a little blip as mentioned above. I’ll see how I feel after watching tomorrow. Plus we’re only on season 2 after all.

I personally didn’t find it too offensive. I was expecting way worse but I can understand how it could cross the line for some people. In my opinion it’s still by far the best show Secret Hideout have put out. Roll on next week – hopefully it’s one we can all enjoy.

Worst ep of the series so far. What were they thinking?

Lower Decks seems to be trying really hard to become the first and only Star Trek series so far I don’t want to watch. The humor rarely, if ever, lands for me because the show’s writers seem to subscribe to the concept of “Loud, Fast and Extreme ALWAYS equals Funny”. All the “jokes” – and I use that term loosely – contain one or more of the following:

  1. Rapid-fire delivery because, again, Fast equals Funny, allegedly
  2. LOUD delivery for the same reasons
  3. memberberry-level references to previous Trek material
  4. Low-brow crudeness

The weird thing is, you can even use all of those traits and still accomplish something actually funny, but these writers just aren’t up to the task.

Also, every character’s archetype is always dialed up to 11; Boimler’s almost always high-pitch screaming or whining, Mariner’s always the rebellious one in-the-know about ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, Tendi’s always overly enthusiastic, and Rutherford’s always blissfully clueless. I know this is just animation, but there are enough animated shows, even comedic ones, where characters still have variance and depth to them. These characters are about as deep as a puddle, most of the time.

I loved the last three episodes of Season One, because that’s when it seemed like the writers suddenly realized they had actual characters they could develop and make interesting, rather than just use them as loudly-delivered Joke/Reference/Quip Dispensers. Now, in season 2, it’s like they decided, “Ehh, screw that, we need another clip of Boimler screeching! It’ll be HILARIOUS!!!”

I’m still baffled on how some people can hate Discovery and Picard and yet LOVE Lower Decks. Maybe its humor is what does it for ’em; I don’t know. If that’s your thing, have at it. But if this series continues to be like today’s episode, I’m taking the first shuttle off the Cerritos and never looking back.

Loud fast and boring. Crappy episode.

“I’m still baffled on how some people can hate Discovery and Picard and yet LOVE Lower Decks.”

Yeah, that really surprises me too. But there are a couple of reasons I do get.

The show LOOKS a lot more like traditional Trek, especially TNG. That evokes a feeling of nostalgia on a very superficial level.

The show uses gazillion of call-back easter eggs as fan service with the crew of Cerritos themselves being portrayed as avid FANBOYS / GIRLS of what came before. Look at Boimler’s VOY plate collection. So weirdly, the avid Trek fan now becomes part of the universe through those characters.

Being animated comedy, the viewers have a much higher level of foregiveness for inconsistencies and a much lower expectation regarding realism and actual meaningful storytelling compared to live-action. So the disappointment never fully unfolds, compared to the loosely organized plotpoints of for example PIC S1. As an animated comedy, LDS doesn’t even aim any higher, there are no great expectations that can be missed.

LDS is not my cup of Earl Grey. Being what it set out to be, it lacks any moral or narrative depths and tropes are revisited by the dozen on mere flyby as tongue-in-cheek afterthoughts.

DSC and PIC on the other hand tried to be sophisticated, mature dramas for adult Trek fans, reinventing the wheel on many occasions and trying to join the league of contemporary TV-MA classics. But the writing was all over the place, especially in their first seasons.
Open tech continuity violations infuriated the die-hards, the head-chopping and eyeball-ripping turned off the more sensitive (and older) idealists, the fans of episodic Trek TV couldn’t get into the arc.based format and those in favor of storyarcs were disappointed by the incoherent, underdeveloped narratives.

I started to like DSC in S2 and especially S3, but having recently suffered through the RLM reviews of PIC on YouTube, I can only say: they have a point there. PIC was style over substance and even that style was questionable even from an IDIC POV.

You have some fair points here, and I’ve been mulling over a response (I also meant to respond earlier but didn’t because real life got in the way, as it sometimes does).

The thing about the callbacks and references being fan service is… true, honestly – but that’s only part of it. It’s not so much that seeing all these aliens we’ve seen only once or twice before is necessarily nostalgic or funny; it’s that having them here reinforces a couple of ideas. The first is that this is all one big, existing universe. If a given sapient alien species from a technological culture has previously been portrayed as existing in Trek, and hasn’t been specifically portrayed as being unusually rare or whatever, it simply makes sense that we’d see them (not necessarily the same specific individuals, of course, but other representatives of the people) in other Trek productions in the same setting. In the past, though, aside from key major players like Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Bajorans, etc., we’ve tended not to. Part of that is down to simple production limitations; live-action shoots have budgets and timeframes that don’t always allow for “extraneous” aliens if they’re not absolutely needed for the story. Animation as a medium, though, can portray a Haliian or a Kzinti or whatever as easily as it can a Human / Terran, a Bajoran, an Android, or whatever. And doing so responds to another significant creative call – it helps reinforce the Star Trek / Starfleet ethos. This organization, as well as the greater franchise of which it’s a part, is supposed to be all about diversity, inclusion, different peoples working together for the common good, etc., but real-world constraints on television production have always kept the live-action shows from showing as many non-humans in Starfleet as they might have otherwise. With freedom from those constraints, Lower Decks is more fully embracing these core tenets that some of us consider kind of sacred ideals that encapsulate everything Trek is supposed to be, or should be. When I watch this show and see a ship whose crew has included not only the usual abundance of Humans but also Orion, Caitian, Trill, Bajoran, Vulcan, Andorian, Haliian, Napean, Exocomp, Kzinti, Phylosian, etc. officers, it’s not just nifty fan service; it’s genuinely kind of stirring and inspiring.

And that’s one example. For all its shenanigans, Star Trek: Lower Decks is a show that seems to really believe in all the things the franchise supposedly embodies – sometimes quite a bit more than some of the live-action shows appear to do – even while affectionately poking fun at some of its tropes and such.

I think you are on the right track for your reasons why many here like LDX and not Star Trek Discovery. The memberberries are a huge part of it. They love the call backs. The episodic format. The TNG era. It all adds up. Plus, look at the Discovery episodes they tend to like. The one with Riker. The one with the Guardian of Forever. The one that went to Talos IV. See the common thread there?

Now I’m an older fan. And I like the call backs as much as the next guy but I’d really like it if they were done in a more organic way. Every call back on LDX (and even on Star Trek Discovery, too) feels forced in. I’m sorry, it does. And you are right. The Ceritos is a ship full of fans. It feels like what DS9 originally wanted to do for their anniversary episode before they opted for the Tribble one. Going back to Sigma Iotia II and finding a planet full of Star Trek fans. Well… I think we finally have a version of that now.

Agree 100%. I truly believe each to their own, but I’m astonished at just how much love this show gets. I find it a struggle to watch and the hyperactive line delivery is, frankly, exhausting. If I take this as a goofy Trek parody, it’s watchable. But I can’t in a million light years take this as actual Star Trek. I’m happy that many can. I just don’t get it. It really must be the nostalgia factor and all the fanwank references. It’d be interesting to see how this show plays to people who aren’t Trek fans. I adore Futurama, and was hoping for something along that lines. Lower Decks just …ain’t that good.

I was hoping for essentially The Orville if it devoted the entire show to comedy. What we got is a very long way from that.

Holly cow, Shatterhand! Your first 4 paragraphs are RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!!! LDX writers just aren’t up to it. You can have fast and frantic but still be funny (Archer does it). You can do Trek-like higher level sci-fi stuff and be funny. R&M does it! You can even make low brow poop jokes and have them work. They worked on early seasons of Family Guy and even from time to time on The Orville. But for some reason they just aren’t working here. None of the jokes do. Mariner is so obviously the Burnham (Mary Sue) of this show. It’s pretty pathetic really. Boimler has more in common with Homer Simpson than anyone should in Star Fleet. The others have about as much depth as evil Lorca.

I was so very much looking forward to a comedic Trek show. But these guys just aren’t cutting it. Giving the Ferengi Last Outpost entergy whips just isn’t funny. It shows they remember old shows but it also shows they don’t know how to create comedy, too.

And for the record… Reno has been more funny in her overall 40 minutes of screen time on Star Trek Discovery than 14 episodes of LDX ever has been. I mean the funniest moment in all of Secret Hideout Trek was “I forgot you already.” I mean jeezzz…. Put HER on Lower Decks!

Eating shit. Throwing up. Magatu’s jerking off with their horns. “F” bombs. I’m done with this piece of garbage.

No, you’re not. Cut the melodrama.

Why is it you always have to take these types of potshots?

Ok Boomer

All the masturbation and 3some jokes felt really out of place in this episode. Honestly, it was painfully cringy to watch. I love Lower Decks but this episode was just….wrong.

I liked the episode a lot, but those specific moments you mentioned were just a bit too far for me too. However, I don’t think it merits the overreaction some folks are having in these comments. Not your reaction, I agree with yours.

Yup. Too far indeed and out of tone with the series so far.

Only in that the show has never ventured into more adult forms of humor before. But it remained completely in tone that it remained occasionally clever but still no laughs.

Good lord that was dreadful. The episode was a complete failure on all levels. I’m deeply hurt it was that bad. It was amateur hour all the way through. I’m stunned…

“I’m deeply hurt it was that bad.”

Okay, this is ridiculous. There were parts I didn’t appreciate in the episode, but being “deeply hurt” is beyond absurd and frankly kind of damaging to our collective image. I just can’t imagine anything in any fandom meriting a reaction like this. I feel like feelings like this belong in the real world and associated with important things, not this.

I don’t care about “our collective image” I only care about my own enjoyment. I’ve grown to love Lower Decks and yes the episode in question has shaken my faith in the show. It feels personal to me, that’s how I feel. It was awful on so many levels it needs to be called out. I will not be kept quiet by shoddy writing. It’s not my problem you are offended by my personal opinion.

This is an unhealthy reaction. These feelings belong to real-world issues, not this.

Are you my Doctor?

Nope, just a concerned/annoyed party. Fans really need to get a grip on themselves. Zero and Ten aren’t the only options, holy hell folks. Nowadays, fan behavior is in more need of being called out than anything anyone is doing behind the scenes.

You seem to be the one takings one fan’s contrary viewpoint out out of proportion. I also thought this ep was and insult to the Star Trek I know and love…my opinion. You have a different opinion, and that’s fine. No one is right or wrong here — these are all subjective opinions.

True. This is why I don’t involve myself into sci-fi fandom anymore. People are getting unbalanced.

“These feelings belong to real-world issues, not this.”

Wrong! Real-world issues aren’t hardly as important as Trek. I’d even go so far to say that Trek is a lot more “real” than your overrated reality.

Here is why. I believe in the superiority of thr realm of ideas over the realm of things. Reality doesn’t even exist because it’s bound to a present that does not even persist for the blink of an eye. The future becomes the past in almost no time.

But the world of ideas prevails and transcends those limitations. It’s quite simple. Nimoy is dead, Spock lives. In 50 years from now, most people won’t even remember any historical details about our time, let alone private little real-life exeriences. Those die with each individual.

But Star Trek series will still be watched, Shakespeare plays will still be performed, Tolkien will still be read and the next Doctor will still be cast etc…

Had he not played Spock, no one would know the name Nimoy…

Garth, I like you a lot man, but posts like this is when you do have to step back at times and remember you’re just watching a TV show. Star Trek is ‘real’ in the fictional sense (does that make any sense lol) but once you turn it off, you are back in reality, as much as some may hate it.

This is a highly philosophical debate. It’s a matter of perception. And it’s not just Star Trek or any other franchise I’m talking about. It comes down to the very nature of reality and existence.

There is no such thing as “just a TV show”. Basically it’s all about the persistance of vision… Anything in film, in books, works of art, music etc. has a longer persistance than fragile life because it survives its creator. That longevity makes it a lot more important to me than everyday life.

It’s not about “hating” reality. There are aspects about our world I dislike, but even the bright sides do not persist. Over the last six years I lost both of my parents, probably the only people I really ever cared about. They are gone. I can remember them for sure but it’s not the original.

But as long as I live, I can always rewatch The Man Trap or TMP… And those will be available long after I’ve passed.

Same with Mona Lisa, Romeo & Juliet, Elvis or The Bible… Any work of art, literature, music or film-making does persist and therefore exists on a higher plane of existence. And that fact matters a lot more to me than that zero point present that only exists for a fragile moment between the past and the future.

You do not need to subscribe to any of this, but this is how I perceive the world, this is how I prioritize things.

But maybe that’s because I’m not neuro-normative. Back in the day, when other “normal” people wanted to hang out with girls, the ONLY thing I ever wanted was to take pictures of them in tank tops. Because those pictures persist even when they grow old. It’s all about persistance. Art persists, people don’t.And Star Trek is the one corner of art creation I’ve chosen to be my home.

Mere remembrance is not good enough for me. But please don’t be bothered by my strange attitudes :-) It’s totally okay if you set different priorities…

Alright Garth, I understand what you mean and I respect it. I’ve always really liked you even when we don’t agree on everything. Still disagree on some of it but I totally get your POV on it now that you explained it more and we’ll leave it at that! :)

Well said!

When was the last time you got outside?

I feel the same way about this ep as Dvorak.

Then you should probably seek help if you are this triggered by a cartoon. Yikes…

I am comfortable enough in my opinion of this show that I don’t have to result to personal insults at those who disagree with me. For those who do — that’s the definition of “triggered.”

I agree 100%.

LOL. I loved it. Rewatching it right now.

You’re hurt by how bad it was? Why on earth are you taking it *this* personally? It’s a television show, not some kind of personal attack on you…


Gang, lighten up. It was a funny episode, Mugatu jerk-off jokes included. Even MY WIFE laughed at that one. Not to mention that the conflict was resolved by having the Ferengi turn it into an animal sanctuary. How much more Trek could that resolution be?!

the conflict was resolved by having the Ferengi turn it into an animal sanctuary. How much more Trek could that resolution be?!

I’ll agree with you on that point; that was a pretty clever way of handling the situation. That’s part and parcel of what annoys me about this show sometimes. It has moments of brilliance and genuine cleverness, but they’re usually drowned out by loud, fast, obnoxious “jokes” and overclocked character types.

It’s like children finger-painting all over a Da Vinci. You can still see hints of the artist’s genius behind all of the sloppy mess.

Love the finger-painting metaphor; that expresses SO much!

I see everybody talking about the jokes in this one (and they were pretty bad!) but the one thing nobody’s talking about is the fact that there’s another canon glitch in this show and it’s pretty major this time! These ensigns and this ship should not know about Section 31. Nobody in Starfleet, not even Jean-Luc Picard, knows about Section 31’s existence. Section 31 always erases all traces of their existence.

They’re in the Federation charter but nobody knows that they’re there or even knows their name. So, the fact that these ensigns even know about Section 31 is a major canon glitch! Section 31’s not that sloppy! They’ve been around since the time of Jonathan Archer. In all that time, the only people who knew about them was those who needed to know and those who didn’t need to know were killed.

And now all of a sudden, these ensigns, who’ve only been in Starfleet for a very short time, know about Section 31. If anything, they should be alluded to like they’re the Boogeyman of Starfleet. Not talked about in casual conversation, especially not by ensigns. I can see Captains talking about them, not ensigns, especially not greenhorns.

This is now the third canon glitch and that’s it for me until Prodigy. The first glitch is the Salt Vampire being alive in the 2380s when the whole species went extinct over a 120+ years ago. That was in the first season. They just brought her back to use for a joke irregardless that it broke canon.

The second one was the Preserver obelisk in Strange Energies imbuing Ransom with godlike powers when one that clearly wasn’t an Earth-type society so why was a Preserver obelisk there in the first place? And two clearly anybody who watches TOS would know that the obelisk doesn’t grant powers, it just erases memory because it’s only supposed to come into contact with the Preservers. And now the third canon glitch and, the most grievous one in my eyes, the fact that Section 31 is known by a bunch of greenhorn Ensigns. I’m done with Lower Decks!

Everybody else can be happy chalking up what they’re doing as an homage or nostalgia, not me. They’re literally breaking canon to fit their stories and I love Star Trek too much 💖 and respect it too much to continue watching these people do that to it. I’ve been a Trekkie all my life since I was 12 and now I’m 42 and I’m tired of watching a show continuously break canon and disrespect the shows and stories that have come before it. I’ll just watch Prodigy, Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds, forget Lower Decks.

Live long and prosper, Trekmovie 🖖.

you should probably re-watch DS9 :) Sisko, Bashir (obvs), Miles, and even probably Odo know about Section 31

A few people knowing about something doesn’t mean the whole universe would knows about it. That last Section 31 episode was right near the end of DS9. What happened in that, do you remember? Let’s see Sisko died, O’Brien returned to Earth, and Odo returned home.

So who had the time to reveal Starfleet’s darkest secret? And Bashir never mentioned it to Starfleet after Sloan approached him the first time so why we would he mention it after his 2nd encounter with Section 31? If you recall, Bashir was advised not to reference Section 31 in any logs because nobody knew just how high-up the conspiracy went. Section 31 is a very dark mark on Starfleet’s blotter, do you really think they would want the fact that they commit assassinations on a routine basis getting out in the open?

And even if someone did say something about it, don’t you think that would’ve been mentioned in Picard because that would’ve been such a pivotal moment for Starfleet and the Federation? Instead the only things mentioned were the Synth attack and the Supernova. For a group of Ensigns to know about Section 31 is a break in canon, plain and simple. Unless Section 31 approached all of them which I find that hard to believe because Section 31 only approaches the best of the best, like Dr.Julian Bashir who was genetically engineered.

And let’s face it, these Ensigns are not the best of the best that’s why the show is called Lower Decks. So, if that’s the case, then, once again, how did these Ensigns know about Section 31? See, they broke canon whether you want to admit it or not. Live long and prosper 🖖.

and EVERYONE in Discovery knew about it. Even if it went underground after Control- people would still talk about the division.

But they didn’t, did they? Because the first time we heard of Section 31 was in DS9. Spock was sworn to confidentiality, remember? Starfleet told him that he could not talk about what he saw or what he experienced on the Discovery, remember? It was at the end of the last episode in Discovery season 2.

He had a hearing and he was ordered by Starfleet not to talk about or reveal anything he saw while on the Discovery. And right there proves my point. In all the years that Spock was alive, he never once mentioned anything about Section 31 or an elite Black Ops unit in Starfleet. Even in Star Trek: Into Darkness.

That movie was co-written by Alex Kurtzman. And young Spock knew that Section 31 was involved in everything going on in that movie. Yet when we see old Spock he only talked about Khan. He didn’t talk about knowing about Section 31. Starfleet erases all traces of their existence from their records and from people’s minds.

They probably erased it from Spock’s mind. Now, if Starfleet and the Federation would go to such great lengths to keep Section 31 a secret, do you really think they would allow some Ensigns to run around exposing their secret? No, they wouldn’t. They would mind-wipe the Cerritos crew and kill the Ensigns OR cause the Cerritos to suffer a warp core breach while inside of a nebula thereby ensuring the safety of their secret.

They are assassins! They’re not a group that ‘s referenced in casual conversation and by doing so, the writers of this show are making a mockery out of an extremely important aspect of Starfleet and that is the fact that they use assassins to do their dirty work. These people in Section 31 kill Kings or Queens or Emperors and Empresses. They change the geo-political climates of societies on the rise if they’re not pro-Starfleet and the Federation.

They were willing to commit genocide and use Odo to do it to end the Dominion War. These are serious subjects, man! Not something that should be addressed on a 1/2 hour cartoon and casually being referenced like they’re a joke! That’s why I say that this show is disrespecting everything about Star Trek and they’re just doing it so they could tell the jokes that they want.

And no, nobody would talk about Section 31 because you don’t know who’s in it. Your best friend could be in Section 31 and you wouldn’t know. That’s the point of their existence. You wouldn’t know until they kidnap you in the middle of the night and torture you to find out just how much you know about them.

Section 31 has been around since the dawn of Starfleet. They are written into the Federation chart. Do you really think that people would just be talking about them. Reed from Enterprise was in Section 31.

He never mentioned them until he made a mistake. Captain Archer never mentioned them, either. Hell, he included them in the Federation charter so what’s that saying, huh? So people would not just be casually referencing them or talking about them here, there, and everywhere.

They are the Boogeymen of Starfleet. They do the dirty work of Starfleet. They live in the shadows, not the light. If everybody knew of their existence then they couldn’t do their job now, could they?

Live long and prosper 🖖.

These ensigns and this ship should not know about Section 31. 

We never saw it because DS9 came to an end two episodes later, but I’d be willing to bet Bashir and O’Brien blew the whistle on Section 31 after Sloan was caught/died. That would have been several years before Lower Decks.

Bashir never mentioned Section 31 the first time to Starfleet so why would he the 2nd time? Nobody knows how far up the conspiracy goes, remember? And do you really think O’Brien would risk his family to reveal Starfleet’s darkest secret? Don’t you think such a pivotal moment in Starfleet and Federation history would’ve been touched upon in Picard.

But they didn’t talk about it, did they? According to what we saw, the only two major things to happen to both Starfleet and the Federation was the Synth attack and the Supernova. Don’t you think the revelation that Starfleet uses assassins to do their dirty work would’ve have had a bigger galactic impact if it was revealed? Lower Decks broke canon, plain and simple.

There is no reason why a group of Ensigns should know about Section 31 when some of Starfleet’s greatest don’t even know about it. Live long and prosper 🖖.

Sorry – in the episode that introduces them (Inquisition) – Bashir * does * tell Sisko about Section 31. Sisko then asks Starfleet who then ghost him. But, Kira and Odo are also aware of Bashir’s claims re: the organization :) –

Once again, Odo went home so who would he tell outside of his people? Remember he told the female Changeling that he would go home so who would he tell? The Dominion, upon finding out that Section 31 was the one who infected them with that disease, probably decided to stay on the other side of the wormhole rather than take their chances on trying to deal with the crazy humans again. Section 31 was willing to use Odo as a pawn in a game of genocide against his own people.

If they’re willing to go that far, how much further are they willing to go? This episode was a couple of episodes from the series finale. So Sisko died before he could tell anyone. But then again Section 31 probably knows that he and Garak killed Senator Vreenak to get the Romulans into the war so I’m sure that might buy Sisko’s silence for awhile.

Kira knowing isn’t exactly a problem for them because she was part of Starfleet at the end of the show so if Section 31 was in danger of being revealed they know where to find her. Plus, they could just mind-wipe these guys, if they posed a threat to Section 31. Because, like I said already, nobody knows who’s in Section 31 and who’s not. See, you don’t seem to understand my point.

These people didn’t even know about Section 31 until Dr.Bashir was approached by Sloan.They had never heard of them, including Odo, who knew a lot of clandestine organizations. Hell, Garak didn’t know about them and he was in the Obsidian Order. A few people knowing is one thing because all Starfleet would have to do is arrest them on some charge or another and tarnish their reputations and make them look like liars.

Which Section 31 is quite capable of doing. But a bunch of raw Ensigns knowing, who just got out of the Academy, that’s not right. They’re casually referencing them like a joke, that’s not right! If the whole galaxy knew about the existence of Section 31, don’t you see how something like that should’ve been referenced in Picard?

If races like the Andorians found out what the humans were doing, they would leave the Federation. So a few people knowing and keeping their mouths shut is one thing. But a bunch of Ensigns running around joking about Section 31 is completely different. How can you remain a clandestine organization if everybody knows of your existence?

Live long and prosper 🖖.

I hear you but I think that boat has sailed as far as who knows about Section 31.

A. Remember, this is years after the events of DS9 and after their presence came more to light in general. Who knows how public they became by the time Bashier and O’Brien stopped Sloan.

B. Watch Discovery season 2. ;)

I watched Discovery season 2. There was no grand unveiling of Section 31 in it. And Bashir never mentioned Section 31 the first time he was approached so why would he the 2nd time? And why would O’Brien want to reveal Section 31’s existence and endanger his family at the same time?

These people are assassins. They are not the nicest people around and nobody knows who all is involved in Section 31 so to a career officer like O’Brien was it would’ve been career suicide to reveal them and it would’ve put his family in harm’s way. And whoever took over Section 31 might’ve been a LOT worse than Sloan. And don’t you think that the revelation that Starfleet uses assassins to do their dirty work would’ve had a pretty big galactic impact on the Star Trek Universe and yet they never mentioned anything like that happening in Picard.

There was only two things that happened since the last time Star Trek in the TNG-era was on TV and that was the Synth attack and the Supernova. The revelation of Section 31 would be a game changer, don’t you think? It would demoralize so many people and cause disenchantment with the Federation and Starfleet. It could lead to secession even, cause some planets to leave the Federation.

That’s why Bashir and O’Brien nor anybody else would risk revealing the existence of Section 31 because of the deeper implications that come with it. That’s why a subject like Section 31 should not be touched upon in a 1/2 hour cartoon designed as a comedy. And that’s why I say they broke canon. I respect the stories that have come before.

I grew up with them. This show just keeps disrespecting the stories and twisting stuff to fit their jokes. That’s why I’m finished with it. Live long and prosper 🖖.

“I watched Discovery season 2. There was no grand unveiling of Section 31 in it. “

Well they didn’t have to be because everyone knew who they already were! They weren’t a secret or even ‘classified’, they worked along side Starfleet the way CIA works in the American government. Their work might be classified, but not them. So I’m not sure what you mean by this? They were so prevalent in Discovery that they literally carried around black Starfleet badges to let people know they were part of the group. So all the super secrecy about them in DS9 was thrown out the door and you have to somehow believe Starfleet was able to bury their relationship with them even though there would still people in the 24th century (like Spock) who would know who they are since they had dealings with them.

And honestly, I don’t think it’s a big deal Boimler or Rutherford would know at this point because Starfleet DOES know who they are even in the 24th century. They still work with other officers in Starfleet. And of course the biggest head scratcher about Section 31 is that they always tell ANYONE who they are when they are asked lol. It’s always been funny how no one has to ‘discover’ who Section 31 is, they always just come out and tell you. They obviously did it with Sloan and Bashir first. Sloan laid out the ENTIRE point of the organization in their first meeting KNOWING Bashir would naturally tell others, right? Nothing happened to him, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that. And then Harris told Archer who they were when Archer contacted them about Reed (just in a more roundabout way). Even in the Kelvin universe Marcus just flat out tell Kirk and Spock what Section 31 is (but OK, I guess he figured they weren’t going to be around long enough anyway). And we already discussed Discovery. ;)

So I don’t really think its a big deal by the time LDS that other people know about them. Maybe it’s just gotten out more, especially after their involvement with the Dominion war. Maybe a ton of stuff just been unclassified by then and the fact they tried to genocide an entire species became news to everyone in the Federation. Who knows?

But if it bothers you personally, OK. I just think the secret is out with Section 31 in general, especially since they basically tell anyone who they are lol.

Is this a joke or something? Where do you get they just tell anyone? We’ve only seen them tell Dr.Bashir and, in the Kelvin timeline, Kirk and Spock. The only reason Captain Archer found out was because he needed help with something.

But he didn’t turn them in and neither did Bashir because, in the end, somebody has to do the dirty work, right? And classified government documents don’t become unclassified until after 60 years, I believe. Lower Decks takes place, what, 5 years after DS9. So not years and years later.

Maybe you should look at the calendar in Star Trek sometime 😉? So documents about the Dominion War would still be heavily classified and I really don’t think Starfleet would want it out there that they had a secret covert group perform genocide on the Founders, do you? So they would probably heavily redact ANY and ALL documents pertaining to the Dominion War and any mention of the disease that nearly killed the Founders, which was a modified version of the Quickening. If you do think that they would release information like that then you must be a kid who’s trying to argue logically with an adult and you’re not going to win because your argument isn’t even based on logic and you have no evidence to support your theories.

According to you, Section 31 reveals themselves to everybody.
That’s a joke 😆! And Discovery was heavily classified, right, or did you forget about that? That’s why there’s no mention of the Discovery in any of Starfleet’s records.

But Section 31 just reveals themselves to everybody, right?That’s why Burnham was allowed on the Discovery because it wasn’t a “normal” Starfleet ship or did you forget that she was a mutineer? Maybe you should go rewatch season 1 of Discovery? Oh, and let’s not forget that at the end of Season 2 of Discovery all traces of Discovery having even EXISTED were erased from every Starfleet database when she went to the future or did you forget about that?

But Section 31 just reveals themselves to everybody, right?
You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about 😆 and I already know that they’re similar to the CIA, similar not exactly like them.That’s why they originally approached Bashir because he always wanted to play spymaster. Live long and prosper 🖖.

Man what is with the hostility? You’re taking all this a little too personal lol. It’s just a conversation. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m only saying I don’t have a problem with them knowing at this point because of the points given. But OK, you do, fair enough. It’s just not a big deal to me at all because I feel the secret about Section 31 would be out by now.

So no, it wouldn’t surprise me at all they would know about Section 31. And my opinion is only based on what we seen. But one of your points were that if someone tell anyone they know about Section 31 then they would face some kind of consequences over that. Where are you getting this odd assumption Section 31 erases traces of who they are??? There has never been any consequences about it. Sloan told Bashir all about the organization and then five minutes later he told Sisko who contacted Starfleet about it directly. And then Sisko told everyone else about Starfleet’s responses which was a basically a shrug.

That’s my point, no one had any trouble just saying they know who Section 31 were and talked about them openly. Bashir didn’t get any death threats over it and then he told his friends on the station about it. Now most people knew about Section 31 on DS9. You have this odd assumption it stopped there. Why? Couldn’t others just hear about the group too ONCE someone outside of it knows about them and simply tell others. Did anyone at ANY point make a pledge never to speak their name again? Or not to tell others? No, right? And if I’m wrong, then please point it out to me.

Seriously point it out!!!!

And since you want to be VERY specific about this, as Sisko would say you REALLY want to do this? Ok, let’s DO it!!! In the second episode of the season, Mariner revealed to Tendi she WORKED on DS9! Right? And we don’t know how long she was on the station but we know she was there when Worf was on the station as well. And yes Worf knew about Section 31 as the rest of them. So maybe Mariner just heard about Section 31 on DS9 since it was an open secret on the station. And Mariner being Mariner just told whoever she wanted like her friends as well since she doesn’t care about rules and regulations all that much. But AS said, at no point did anyone on DS9 say their knowledge of Section 31 even had to stay a secret so that wouldn’t even matter.

OK, so since you wanted something more how they could have known, there it is! Now do I have ANY proof any of this happened, of course not lol. And yes Mariner could’ve left the station before Section 31 ever showed up, but we don’t know that she did or didn’t either. And now, do you have any proof this DIDN’T happen either? That’s the beauty of fiction man! ;D

But logically it can all fit right? Since you’re clearly not going to let this go, this is one very easy way others could’ve heard about them and yes directly through another source if you just don’t believe Section 31 became more known after the war. Not bad logic for a forty something year old ‘kid’.

And FYI, this isn’t the first time Section 31 was even referenced on Lower Decks. Boimler mentioned them last season too in ‘Envoys’. So yeah they established he knew about them for awhile now.

Live Long and Prosper!

I don’t have the hostility. YOU have the hostility. All I ask is for logic and common sense and you just gave it to me. I missed where they said Mariner was on DS9 when Worf was there.

If you said that in your first message, it would’ve saved a LOT of back and forth. Then it is possible for them to know about Section 31. As for Boimler knowing about them, that’s a little bit hard to swallow since the guy is such a chicken. He’s not the best of the best – yet!

You want to know why I say Section 31 will go after someone’s family? Well, let’s see, didn’t Sloan play a massive mind game when he kidnapped Bashir on his way to that conference? Made him walk through the supposed “station” in shackles? Demoralizing him?

Trying to make him believe he’s a traitor? Well, if they play mind games like that and Sloan already made it known that they are not above assassinating heads of governments then why is it such a far leap to believe that they can do torture or kidnap people’s friends or family? We don’t really know what they’re fully capable of, right, because we’ve only seen them, what, 4 or 5 times. That’s the joy of fiction, right?

Those were your words I believe. Did you read the Section 31 novels by the way? If you didn’t, why don’t you go read them then come back with a better leg to stand on. Since you want to bring up Captain Sisko, I’ve decided to go all Captain Kirk on you. That’s right, I want to go there.

Where do I get they erase all traces of themselves? Well, duh, Sloan is one. His brain was shutting down and it was filled with Section 31’s secrets. So that’s one way of covering their tracks.

And the 2nd way is the Discovery. They erased all traces of her from every Starfleet database when she went into the future. That’s why Burnham could be on that ship even though she was a mutineer because it was a Section 31 ship and project. So that’s TWO examples of Section 31 erasing any evidence of their existence.

Go read the books. Not just the two with Bashir, I mean the book line wide crossover that happened twenty years ago too. Thank you for informing me about Mariner on DS9. Maybe you should learn to be more tactful?

Take a lesson in diplomacy from Captain Picard why don’t you. Especially since you don’t know who the person is you’re talking to on the other side of the screen and I’m 42 myself and I’m Bi-Polar so I don’t quit, got it, jack? Live long and prosper 🖖

Maybe the Preservers preserved some Salt Vampires somewhere, and Section 31 uncovered it!

Or the Salt Vampires or Salt Succubi once had a fleet of starships and established settlements across the galaxy, or some of them hitched rides on visiting alien spacecraft and resettled elsewhere, and the one that tried to trap Ransom was a descendant of one of those settlers.

Those are all “What Ifs…”. Star Trek is not built on “What Ifs…”. Because, if that was the case, then ALL of the novels and comics that I grew up with in the ’80s, ’90s, ’00s, and still read to this day would be considered Alpha canon but they’re not. What you just told is a story and story’s are considered Beta canon.

In Alpha canon, the Salt Vampire and her whole species is dead. The Salt Vampire is the one who told that guy, who was the husband of the woman she was posing as, that she was the last of her kind and he said that, at one time, they were all over the planet, like herds of buffalo. And they went extinct just like the Buffalo almost did. Don’t you think if they were capable of space travel, that him and his wife would’ve found evidence of it on the planet?

The Salt Vampire died in The Man Trap and she was the last of her kind. See, this is what happens when canon gets broken. People come up with a story as to why the Salt Vampire might be alive and it’s not canon but people believe it is. That’s disrespectful to the writer who wrote The Man Trap.

Because in his story, the Salt Vampire died and that’s it, no more Salt Vampire because the species went extinct. But Lower Decks takes what’s canon in the stories that have come before it and sees fit to twist it to their benefit. They break canon, so to speak. So people see the Salt Vampire and then they start coming up with their own stories as to how or why the Salt Vampire is still alive.

And that becomes head canon to some people or fan fiction and then the fan fiction becomes reality to people and that’s not how canon works. The majority of the Star Trek stories in the novels back in the ’80s was fan fiction and the writers of them even say so. That’s how we got Alpha and Beta canon. And this is why I’m through watching Lower Decks.

I’ll just watch Prodigy, DIS, PIC, and SNW from now on and just forget about Lower Decks. And, yes, I know the Salt Vampire is a Succubus. But they didn’t call her that back in 1966. I have her sitting here on my bookshelf, as a matter of fact.

I bought her MEGO figure because she’s one of my favorite creatures in all of Star Trek. Live long and prosper 🖖.

Yes, you are quite correct that what I told were “What ifs.” I was merely hypothesizing at best or speculating at worst how three Salt Vampires ended up off their home planet M-113 (the stuffed one in TOS: “The Squire of Gothos” as well as the live one in LDS: “Veritas” and the stuffed one in LDS: “Kayshon, His Eyes Open”, although the one in the latter episode could have been the same one from TOS: “The Man Trap”). I was not even telling a story, not even one that could be considered Beta canon or even head canon. I apologize for not being clear about that. Whenever I mention an item from canon, I try my best to cite the name of the episode or movie from which the item came, unless the item is well known.

I have to say though that the Salt Vampire in “The Man Trap” telling Prof. Crater that she was the last of her kind is not canon. However, it is plausible. Since a Salt Vampire must have been powerfully telepathic as well as extremely intelligent – in order to obtain the images of trustworthy people from the minds of multiple prey and to project itself in the guises of those multiple trustworthy people into those multiple prey minds, simultaneously and respectively – then they might have been able to link with each other telepathically on the scale of a planet. So if they did have a planet-wide telepathic network, then at some point in her life, the Salt Vampire in that episode discovered that she could no longer link with any of her kind anymore, and concluded that she was the last of her kind.

Equally plausible is that the Craters themselves learned that that particular Salt Vampire was the last of her kind, by using their spacecraft, satellites, or drones to scan the entire planet. This is more plausible if Salt Vampires did not have a planetary telepathic network. Since their civilization was ancient and long dead, then they had long ago reverted to their primitive state, losing any high technology they might have ever had, including the technology to communicate with each other on a planetary scale and to scan their whole planet. Being in such a primitive state, the Salt Vampire in that episode would not have had any means to determine whether she was the last of her kind.

Regarding whether I think if the Salt Vampires were capable of space travel, that the Craters would have found evidence of it on the planet, I think the probabilities of these archeologists having and not having found such evidence to be equal, that is, 50/50. My reasoning is that neither is canon, hence my telling “What ifs” in my previous comment.

It is cool that you have the Salt Vampire from “The Man Trap” as a MEGO figure. Apparently, Trelane and Kerner Hauze liked having Salt Vampires figures too, albeit taxidermied dead ones.

What Prof. Crater said that is canon. It’s in “The Man Trap” itself and anything on TV or in a movie or in the books now (since 2019 because ViacomCBS said that they are to be considered canon now too.) is canon. And the Professor said that the Salt Vampire was the last of her kind and that they once could be found all over the planet, like the buffalo. That is a direct quote from the episode itself.

But you’re not gonna tell me that’s not canon. I know the difference between Alpha and Beta canon. That quote comes directly from the episode so that’s Alpha canon. She was the last of her kind.

Now the Salt Vampire in “The Squire Of Gothos” that was probably a completely different Salt Vampire or since that episode was so close to “The Man Trap”, Trelane might’ve plucked the image out of Captain Kirk’s or Dr.McCoy’s mind. Remember he was trying to pass himself off as a big game hunter?So having a creature from a species that was extinct falls in line with that MO. Also, he was trying to frighten them and the Salt Vampire physically attacked Captain Kirk so her image was probably still in his mind and Trelane might’ve plucked it from his mind and conjured up a Salt Vampire.

So there’s no telling if that was a real Salt Vampire or not because Trelane was conjuring up everything that day and remember it’s been rumored for years that Trelane was the proto-Q and that’s where his powers came from was the Q Continuum, supposedly. So everything in the castle was conjured up and plucked either out of the minds of the landing party or from the Enterprise’s data banks. Lower Decks using her to have sex with Ransom was a canon break. If they’d’ve given a reason as to how she could’ve been there a 120+ years later after the species went extinct then I might’ve bought it and it wouldn’t have broken canon.

But they didn’t so it broke canon. They brought her back just to use her in a joke and that’s not right. That’s disrespectful. Now the Salt Vampire in the Collector’s case, that one is logical and makes sense.

That could be a completely different Salt Vampire from a different era of her people because we don’t know how long the Collector was collecting for or just how old he was supposed to be. But he had Khan’s necklace from TWOK and I believe I saw a torpedo tube casing and that might’ve been Spock’s from TWOK. So the Collector was alive during TOS. I think they should do a short story anthology exploring how the Collector got certain items in his collection.

I think that would be pretty cool to read. Your story or theory about the Salt Vampires sounds plausible and possible. Too bad that Strange New Worlds anthology series wasn’t still around then you could’ve submitted your idea and maybe won a contract to write for the Star Trek novels 🙂. But as far as canon is concerned, I know what’s canon and what’s not.

I’ve been a full-blown Trekkie since I was 12 back in 1991, 30 years now. My first episode of Star Trek though was in 1985 and it was “The Trouble With Tribbles” and I watched that with my Mom. She was the one who got me into Star Trek. I watched “Encounter At Farpoint” when it first came on in 1987 with both my parents. I had a Geordie La Forge figure from the 1st season of TNG.

He was in his Ensigns uniform. I believe Galoob made those figures, I’m not sure 🙂. I watched The Best Of Both Worlds” when it first came out and then I had to wait from May until September to find out if Locutus blew away the Enterprise-D. I love all of Star Trek 💖 with all of my heart!

So I know what’s canon and what’s not. I had to learn about canon because, when I was a teenager, I thought William Shatner’s novels were canon and they’re not. So, what the Professor said in “The Man Trap” is canon. Oh, and your idea about how they might’ve used the psychic net is pretty neat!

But I think they used something similar on DS9 with the Founders because they only communicated telepathically when they were in the Great Link and that sounds just a little bit similar to your theory. But continue to dream and come up with theories, though. That’s the joy and the heart of Star Trek is to dream and imagine what’s out there in space. Live long and prosper 🖖.

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I agree that anything in the TV series and movies, including what Prof. Crater said in “The Man Trap”, is canon. I did not know though that ViacomCBS said the books are now canon too. I Googled the company’s website for a press release about this, but I did not get any results. Can you provide a link?

I did not see quotation marks in your quote from the episode, but after analyzing your comments, I thought the quote was actually two quotes, “the last of her kind” and “they once could be found all over the planet, like the buffalo.” I am sorry if my thinking was incorrect.

Nevertheless, following this thinking, I watched that episode again and searched through its transcript at Chrissie’s Transcripts Site ( for your quotes. I quickly found the first quote in the following dialogue between Prof. Crater, Kirk, and Spock (with the quote bolded and italicized by me):

CRATER: She was the last of her kind.
KIRK: The last of her kind?
CRATER: The last of its kind. Earth history, remember? Like the passenger pigeon or buffalo. Ooh! I feel strange.
KIRK: Just stunned. You’ll be able to think in a minute.
SPOCK: The Earth buffalo. What about it?
CRATER: Once there were millions of them, prairies black with them. One herd covered three whole states, and when they moved they were like thunder.
SPOCK: And now they’re gone. Is that what you mean?
CRATER: Like the creatures here. Once there were millions of them. Now there’s one left. Nancy understood.

I could not however find your second quote. I did find though some of its information (also bolded, but not italicized) dispersed in Prof. Crater’s lines throughout this dialogue. This latter quote must be a paraphrase of Crater’s words?

In your second to last comment in this subthread, you wrote, “The Salt Vampire is the one who told that guy, who was the husband of the woman she was posing as, that she was the last of her kind . . .” I searched for this information in the transcript again and in my rewatching of the episode, but I still could not find it.

Going back to your first quote, I totally agree with you that Prof. Crater said the Salt Vampire was the last of her kind, although the dialogue shows that he corrected himself by saying, “the last of its kind,” to indicate that he did not know the gender of the creature.

Prof. Crater’s statement about the last Salt Vampire however did beg the question of how he obtained this information, hence my two different hypotheses of the Salt Vampires’ telepathic network and the Craters’ scanners. After rewatching the episode and looking at the transcripts of other episodes and movies, I must rule out or revise certain elements of my hypotheses. If Vulcans could sense across light years of space the collective scream of 400 Vulcans dying or the call of V’Ger (TOS: “The Immunity Syndrome”, Star Trek: The Motion Picture), then the hypothetical network of the even more telepathically powerful Salt Vampires could similarly have extended light years from their planet, rather than be planet-bound.

And in the hypothesis of the Craters’ scanners, one element that must be ruled out is the possibility of the couple using a spacecraft, a manned one, not a satellite, to scan the planet. During the search for Nancy Crater, the Enterprise used its own surface search equipment and found only Dr. Crater within a 100 mile (radius) circle. They did not even consider her to have traveled away in a vehicle. Since the crew did not make this consideration and did not search the whole planet and off-planet, then the Craters did not have a spacecraft or any other kind of vehicle, not even a car to travel to the other diggings that Prof. Crater mentioned, at least not one that could cover a 100 mile radius during the shortest time window for the search, 12 minutes 13 seconds, or during the longest, 9.1 hours.

I estimated the shortest window of 12 minutes 13 seconds from the time between video timestamps 15:44 and 27:57, and the longest window of 9.1 hours from the time between Stardates 1513.4 and 1513.8, minus the half hour in which McCoy performed the autopsy of Sturgeon, an autopsy time I based on his autopsy of two crewman between two of Scott’s consecutive roughly hour by hour callouts of when the U.S.S. Yorktown was expecting to rendezvous with the Enterprise (TOS: “Obsession”).

I should add that Prof. Crater’s statements about the last Salt Vampire also begs another question, that of how accurate and precise was his information about the creature being the last of its kind. Since he was a scientist – in one of the softer sciences that 23rd century technology would probably transform into a much harder one than it is today – he probably had to perform error analysis on this information. In the episode, he did seem to be 100% confident in his statement. However, scientific confidence about a piece of information depends on the accuracy and precision, design and calibration, and usage of the method for obtaining that information. The methods that I hypothesized – the Salt Vampire telepathic network and the Craters’ scanners – could not have been perfect. Even if the telepathic network could have reached cosmic distances and penetrate black hole event horizon barriers, the reliability of any reports from such a network would have depended on the veracity of what the Salt Vampire told Prof. Crater. Since it desperately needed love and salt, and killed people for salt by pretense, the honesty and mental health of the Salt Vampire are questionable. It could have told the Craters anything it wanted to tell them. Even though the Craters understood it, it still killed them.

As his wife was killed by the Salt Vampire, Prof. Crater’s own honesty and mental health are also questionable, as he lied for a killer, aiding and abetting it. So what he told the Enterprise was questionable as well.

Regardless of the professor’s honesty and mental health, if the Craters had scanners, the instruments would of course have provided an objective and repeatable method for determining the population of the Salt Vampires over time, from a population of millions down to a population of one, and for recording those determinations. However, their scanners would not have had the range and penetrability of Starfleet scanners.

So regardless of how Prof. Crater got his information about the last Salt Vampire, the Enterprise, after killing that creature, probably would have had to verify the professor’s information, using its own more powerful scanners, in order to determine if conservation laws, the Prime Directive, and a security status applied, as well as to conduct scientific research.

In LD: “Veritas,” Ransom said the Salt Vampires had died out over a century before. His statement was probably based on the verifications by the Enterprise, rather than on Prof. Crater’s information.

However, in TOS: “The Naked Time,” Spock said, “Instruments register only those things they’re designed to register. Space still contains infinite unknowns.” This leaves room for the possibility of other Salt Vampires elsewhere in the Galaxy.

Regarding the Salt Vampire in “The Squire Of Gothos,” I agree that it was probably a completely different Salt Vampire. Searching through this episode’s transcript, I found two indications that may tell if this creature were real or one that Trelane had conjured up, and they show that it was probably conjured up by Trelane. The first indication is that when Kirk asked him if he had created the drawing room by rearranging matter on the planet, Trelane answered in the affirmative. This however depends on Kirk meaning the room as a partitioned part of the inside of the house, along with its contents.

The second indication is that while the parents of this “strange small boy” did stop him from killing Kirk, they did not stop him from phasering the Salt Vampire and the humanoid-bird creature (which seems to be of same species as Dr. Migleemo) during the episode, and beheading the two alligator-like creatures and mounting their heads on the walls of the drawing room some time before. If these four creatures were real beings, had spirit, and were superior, then the parents would have stopped him from killing and mutilating them.

Yes, I remember that Trelane was trying to pass himself off as a big game hunter – “predator” in his words. So the four creatures were displayed as trophies. However, I do not think having a creature from a species that was extinct falls in line with the MO of a trophy hunter, as a hunter cannot hunt an extinct animal. To pass himself off as a trophy hunter, Trelane would have wanted to show extant creatures as trophies.

I also do not think he plucked everything in the house, and the house itself, out of the minds of the landing party or from the Enterprise’s data banks. My reasoning is that he said he had been looking in on the doings on our lively little Earth. The last date of his observations is apparently 1880, the year that Richard Strauss II composed “Roses from the South,” the music that he forced Uhura to play on his harpsichord. As the trophies were of creatures not native to Earth, he might have conjured them up from his observations of other planets.

However, if Trelane did not conjure the four creatures up, then he had “fetched” them from spacecraft unwittingly passing by his stormy little planet of Gothos and turned them into waxwork figures some time before the episode, as he did with Kirk and Sulu during that particular show. In this scenario, his parents may have been too late to stop their son from killing these poor creatures, but I imagine that they, being grown-up superbeings, would have resurrected them.

I have heard the rumor that Trelane was a proto-Q and that his powers came from the Q Continuum. While considering this, I have wondered though why he used the machine behind the mirror in his drawing room and had other medium of instrumentality that he mentioned were at his command, but then I think they were more toys for the small boy, and I remember that the Q fired what we perceived to be mere lead charges and cannonballs (VOY: “The Q and the Grey”).

As for Lower Decks using a Salt Vampire to have sex with Ransom in LD “Veritas,” I think this show was actually using this particular creature to provide an instance of the senior officers messing up “all” the time, this particular mess-up being one of the first officer’s alien dates for which he did not do research, about which he – thinking that the Salt Vampires had died out – dismissed Mariner’s warning, and by which he was apparently attacked off screen.

The show was also giving another, more intense glimpse of Beckett – who she said she had “seen stuff” – detecting dangerous beings and warning people about them ever since she saw, back when she was serving on the Quito, a secret Harvongian Shape-Changer apparently eat her friend Angie (LD, “Cupid’s Errant Arrow”).

I understand that if the show had given a reason how a Salt Vampire could have been in “Veritas” after the species had become extinct, you might have bought it. Since the show has been escalating the glimpses of Mariner sleuthing out dangerous beings, perhaps a future episode will give a reason, along with an explosive climax.

Just for fun, I will try to come up with my own reason anyway. In a park near where I live are a number of buffalo whose ancestors were transplanted far from the prairies over a century ago. If the Salt Vampires’ civilization never became advanced enough to develop star travel, then perhaps a number of them could have been transplanted far from M-113 by a civilization or organization that did have starships. Since the Zibalian Collector Kerner Hauze had a Salt Vampire in his collection, then the Zibalians or the Collector’s Guild probably did the transplantation, or collection, or abduction (TNG: “The Most Toys”) of that particular creature. If Hauze was long-lived, then he might have been the Zibalian or collector who did the collection. Or he might have inherited it from an ancestor who collected it. Or he could have bought it or traded for it or stole it from a chain of collectors going back to the one who actually collected the poor creature in the first place. A similar chain of inheritance, purchases, trades, or thefts could have happened to the items that you identified as Khan’s necklace and Spock’s torpedo casing, and many of the other items in Hauze’s collection.

I imagine that before the extinction of its kind on its planet, this particular Salt Vampire was collected alive, as Data had been collected alive by Kivas Fajo. It then lived a long, sad, and dreary life in a collection. And upon its death, this extremely intelligent being was taxidermied like a dumb beast.

The Salt Vampire that intruded on the Cerritos could have been the descendant of collectees like Hauze’s, a descendant that had somehow escaped its collector and ended up on the Cerritos.

Like Dracula, the Salt Vampires keep coming back.

Incidentally, since the Genesis wave destroyed the Mutara Nebula, the Reliant, and everything on this ship, I do not think the necklace could have been Khan’s, and since the Genesis Planet destroyed itself and everything on it, I do not think the torpedo casing was Spock’s either. However, if the Collectors or Zibalians had technology that could reintegrate an object destroyed in an explosion, then I will concede that the necklace was Khan’s, and the casing was Spock’s. Such a technology would essentially be perfected Genesis technology, which is technology forbidden.

Thank you for your appreciation of my ideas and for your encouraging words that when the Strange New Worlds anthology series was around, I could have submitted my idea and won a contract for novels.

And thank you for telling us about your personal Star Trek experience. I was about 12 years old as well when I became a fan of Star Trek. My schoolmates were the ones who got me interested in Star Trek. A few years later, my love for astronomy and astrophysics began when I started writing down notes about the planets and stars mentioned in the series and movies (along with notes about the spacecraft, events and incidents, and deaths in the shows and movies), hence my username of Astrophysicophile. I too love Star Trek with all my heart.

Peace and long life.

Sorry for posting so many long comments.

Good joke!!! But you need to learn a little bit about Star Trek before you make a joke like that because you merged three different things that have nothing to do with each other. The Preservers only preserve ancient Earth cultures that were on the verge of extinction. The Salt Vampire died in The Man Trap.

The husband of the woman whom the Salt Vampire was posing as said that she was the last of her kind. The rest of her species died a long time ago, like the buffalo and I believe that’s an exact quote right there. Section 31 deals more with the political side of Star Trek and not the super-galactic side or the meta-physical side, if you will and the Preservers definitely fall into the meta-physical side of Star Trek. But, good joke👍 and good try anyways.

Live long and prosper 🖖.

I don’t consider any of those to be canon glitches. The salt vampire being still around is lampshaded in the episode by having Ransom even flat-out tell Mariner that they died out more than a century ago; the show is clearly acknowledging that’s what was widely believed, and it’s only know that we learn otherwise. The obelisk in your next example isn’t a Preserver obelisk at all. And while people may not be supposed to know about Section 31, there’s ample indication a fair number of people do (including ones we specifically know do, including DS9 personnel, and we now know Mariner herself has not only been to DS9 but actually served on it).

I agree with the majority of you. The excessive sex really took me out of the episode. I could deal with Shaxs eating dung, but the Mugatos (Mugatus?, Gamutos?, I don’t know?) sex scene could have been toned down a lot and still make this episode good.

On a good point, my favorite line was “I had it at the lowest tractor factor.” That just made me laugh out loud.

Yeah the sex scene put me off to. I definitely agree with that. And I’m far from a prude but I don’t need to see any Mugatos (or is it Gamutos??) doing it.

So you don’t like to watch?😉

I am a little surprise how much people hated this episode, I laughed the entire way through lol. But yeah they DID go too far in places like the Mugatoo (or Mugato??) having sex or masturbating. But I loved the Tendi and Dr. T’ana scenes. They were a lot of fun. And it was just fun to see the Mugatu again. I thought we would never see one ever again since they looked really cheesy on TOS but leave it to this show to bring them back. And I love that Shax is back!

I didn’t like the Mariner is a secret agent thing since it literally went nowhere. She making it up to keep people away from her was a bit too silly even for this show. But I guess it does go to her entire mysterious background since that’s been the in-joke from the beginning.

Anyway, I guess I’m a freak because I REALLY liked this episode overall! But reading other people’s thoughts and the official review I see why it bothered them too. Hopefully next week won’t be as extreme.

Honestly, I’m not sure why the secret agent/killing machine rumor would have been so surprising. Back in “Envoys”, Mariner tells Boimler that she and the Klingon general bonded when they did some off-the-books grey-ops stuff back in the day.

Exactly! I think it would’ve been cool if it was revealed Mariner had a former black ops past. Maybe she doesn’t do it anymore, but maybe was recruited at the beginning of her career with Section 31 or just Starfleet intelligence. In fact when she went up to the bar again in the last scene, I thought she was going to let on that she actually was a black ops agent to the bartender.

I forgot about that line of dialogue between her and the Klingon in Envoys, so they already hinted to it. Not sure why they couldn’t go with that angle.

Huh. I’m still fresh off my first viewing, so maybe my second will have me reevaluating it, but on first watch I liked this one more than I did the season premiere, “Strange Energies”, and the gross-out humor here, while far from my favorite, didn’t bother me nearly as much as it seems to have bothered so many others, both here and at TrekCore, when I had previously thought I was less a fan of gross-out humor than many others. Huh.

As I commented over there, one area I might consider an exception was Patingi’s death, which felt a little like it more legitimately resembles the kind of deadly-violence-for-laughs the show seems to normally be accused of more than it actually does (most shock humor around violence and gore in the show is either nonlethal and easily fixed, like Mariner accidentally slicing Boimler’s leg in the opening of “Second Contact”, or not real at all but simulated on the holodeck, like Badgey’s rampage on “Bajor” in “Terminal Provocations” or “Invicta”’s death toll in “Crisis Point”). Actual horrific death (like that of the entire crew of the Solvang) tends to be treated with seriousness comparable to what one would see in any other Trek, for the most part. But this one gag felt oddly relevant to me – whether by accident (as is likely, given the long production time) or by design, it felt like a sly joke at the expense of people everywhere who regard themselves as experts when they’re not, and approach dangerous situations accordingly, like turning to right-wing nutjobs on Facebook or whatever rather than doctors and scientists and thus, even in the face of an ongoing pandemic, would seemingly do everything imaginable to avoid taking a safe and effective vaccine but are fine ingesting horse paste or whatever. Obviously, it would hardly be the first time something in Trek commented on something in our real world. But perhaps I’m just reading too much into that scene; it’s certainly not a perfect analogue to what we’re seeing IRL, and the lead times involved in animation appear to rule out the possibility it was written in reaction to that. But still.

As for the rest? Honestly, some of the gags I do of course get why people might find them repellent rather than amusing, like Shaxs tasting the mugato scat, but others, like Boimler and Rutherford being trapped in the log while a couple mugatos mate, just… didn’t bother me? Oh, well.

Bloody violence and humor… exactly what bothers me as well. Zombie comedies are the worst. I just don’t get it. Or Deadpool… gosh, I just can’t enojy that stuff as much as I want to. Yeah, so this being used on Trek is worrisome to some extend… But at least it’s not live-action here…

No one has mentioned this yet? I think they are playing on the Mugato name, which was changed because I think it was DeForest Kelly could not pronounce it? It seemed like some characters were (purposely?) changing their pronunciation from one sentence to the next.

This episode is definitely a low. I continue to watch only because it is Star Trek in name. It will probably end up being the only series I do not re-watch.

The opening sequence makes them out to be a bunch of misfits and cowards, not trained Starfleet professionals.

I wish they would slow it down and tone down the (attempt at) humor. They try too hard. The character building is otherwise good. The Easter eggs are cool, but I’m hoping better in SNW.

It was cool to see a Miranda class ship this season. Really, they could have used a Miranda class ship vs. some new ship design and I would have been more thrilled.

I’m not impressed with Jazzy Riker this season, it’s one thing to create new “funny?” characters, but please don’t make fun of who we’ve respected for decades. It’s out of character.

Yeah, the animal in “A Private Little War” was supposed to be a Gumato, but DeForest Kelly kept mispronouncing it as Mugato, and the producers finally gave in and had all the OTHER actors say “Mugato,” too, since Dee just couldn’t get it.

LOL OMG, I don’t remember that at all! This is why I love this show so much. Now it looks like I have to rewatch A Private Little War (never my favorite episode though). But that is funny. I’ve seen it over a dozen times and once again last year and I never caught it.

You can’t catch it from watching the episode; you have to read books about the making of the series to hear about it. They made sure that the footage of the actual episode had everyone using the same word.

Everybody else had to REDO their lines, because Dee just couldn’t say, “Gumato.”

OK I understand now. That’s why I kept missing it because I didn’t miss anything lol.

I actually liked A Private Little War. Thought the argument between Kirk and McCoy near the end was classic Trek.

I shouldn’t be asking this but since I wasn’t distracted by interesting characters or a good story or by laughing at it I kept wondering how the animals got to that planet.

On top of that, I believe even after the rewrite, Shatner was mispronouncing it, add to the confusion even more.

 It seemed like some characters were (purposely?) changing their pronunciation from one sentence to the next.

Yeah, that was very deliberate. The first dozen or so times Mugato was said, it was pronounced differently. Mu-got-to, Mu-got-tu, Gu-mat-to, there was even a Moo-gatoo in there.

Am I the only one that noticed the field-expedient cannon that Kirk used against the Gorn in the classic TOS episode “Arena”?

Nope, I noticed it too. I initially thought Boimler and Rutherford’s contraption was also a cannon, but it turned out to be a 3D projector.

I first thought about the phaser cannon that Worf used in Insurrection. But yes, it is very similar to the cannon in Arena.

I caught that too. And I was surprised to see it. I fully expected them to come in and make a business deal, not show up with a make shift Metron asteroid cannon! Turns out my initial prediction was indeed correct.

Personally, I was bothered by the bleeped-out swearing, but I did find it logical. In DS9: “Hard Time,” O’Brien said that when he was growing up, he was told that “humanity had evolved, that mankind had outgrown hate and rage.” If that is true about the Federation, then the people of the Federation do not need to swear. However, they can if they need to. Several episodes and movies show individual Federation people using profanity, but none of the other people around them praised, encouraged, copied, or even reprimanded them. Various characters, especially McCoy, said “damn” or some variations of it in life and death situations. And others used the f-word and s-word. In Star Trek: The Voyage Home, Spock noted Kirk’s use of language had altered since their arrival in Earth’s past, that it was laced with more colorful metaphors, like “Double dumb ass on you” and so forth. And Kirk responded by saying that it was simply the way they talked in the past, that nobody paid any attention to you if you did not swear every other word. In the Federation, profanity exists, but it is not frequent.

I was also bothered by the Mugato, Gumato sex, but I also found it logical. I expect that on a mission in the wilderness of an alien planet, Starfleet personnel will have a non-zero probability of encountering and observing animals having sex.

What really bothered me, though, was that members of Starfleet were sweeping the truth – illnesses, deaths, ship accidents, and their causes – “under the rug.” In this episode, Mariner said that to avoid embarrassment, Starfleet did not enter in the official records that half the crew of the Atlantis was lost to Kerplickian lice.

And Captain Freeman planned to tell Starfleet that the shuttle that she was going to give to Hyde was lost in a black hole. She also did not report to Admiral Freeman the low-tractor-factor tractor-beam “accident” with Hyde’s junk ship. And since she also told her husband that the Ferengi were eco-friendly and very noble for wanting to set up a whole preserve to nurture abandoned Mugatos, the Away Team apparently did not report to her that the Ferengi had actually been poaching the Mugatos and they were far from noble, after all they killed an unknown number of Mugato, and inadvertently caused, with the crack of a whip, at least one of their own people and one Tellarite, the renown biologist Patingi who had five books on Mugattos, to be killed by escaped Mugatos.

Or did all these Starfleet members really report the truth, but out of the need to entertain each other (and us), they only exaggerated or embellished the truth when recounting it to each other?

I see that Anthony noted that Tellarites have purple blood. Did anyone notice that the Ferengi and Orions respectively have brown and green blood?

And did anyone spot the the Kzinti Starfleet officer in the mess hall?

And that Dr. T’Ana’s tail is way shorter than the tails of M’Ress and the apparently humanoid-Caitian hybrid girls in Star Trek 2009? Did she bob her tail? Does that make her a bob Cait?

In any case, I really like Boimler and Rutherford’s use of Diplomath to sell to the Ferengi the idea of converting their illegal operation into a nature preserve for the Mugatu. I hope life can imitate art, in wilderness areas around the world where poaching really occurs.

And I don’t know the language of the Hill People of Neural, so is Mugatu the plural for Mugato?

I apologize for my previous comment being overly long. I just had so much to say.

I forgot to mention that the Ferengi were also far from noble because they couldn’t argue with the profit margin of the merchandising for the nature preserve.

I also forgot to mention that Tendi called Lieutenant Commander Steve Stevens, lieutenant in two different scenes.

In the Federation, profanity exists, but it is not frequent.”

Except in PICARD!

No, in PIC, the characters still didn’t swear every other word. When I was in graduate school, I worked as a game tester with veterans, ravers, and other gamers. Whenever someone tried to kill an enemy and couldn’t, he would swear. Whenever someone did kill an enemy, he would swear. Whenever someone tried to get his character stuck in mid-air and couldn’t, he would swear. Whenever someone did get his character stuck in mid-air, he would swear. Whenever someone played more intensely, he would swear even more. The profanity was frequent, and it was so raw, primitive, and intense that it was the verbal version of Mugato sex.

Wow. I’m not sure what to think about this episode. I’ve read a lot of the comments and find myself agreeing with both those who like it and those who don’t. I am not a prude so I didn’t necessarily mind some of the sophomoric sexual humor. I am embarrassed to admit I laughed at the “horn” scene. But having said that I would prefer not to see that type of thing in Star Trek. I guess for me it was a bit of a hit and miss. I hope the writers and show runners listen to this feedback and recognize that they crossed a line with this one. I will give them a pass from a creative experimentation perspective, but hope there isn’t more like this one in the pipeline…

I guess I’m cheap and easy since I thought this was the funniest episode so far.

”Temporal Edict” is still worse.

Yup. That episode is *really* dumb. Freeman comes off completely unstable and insecure. It’s still got some laughs in it but it’s definitely the worst episode of the series so far (for me, of course).

Okay, I’ve just watched it. It was better than expected. Not as good as the last two eps but still way better than the season opener. I had no issues with the horny Mugato stuff – they are animals, it’s okay. I thought the T’Ana subplot was ridiculous. The rest was okay.

The only line I hated was “Last Outpost style Ferengi”… It’s an episode title no one in-universe should be able to quote… too meta!

Agreed, from the reviews I assumed it was going to be purely juvenile, but honestly the only gag that bothered me was the poop one. I actually laughed the first time, pure Jax, but the second time felt forced. Anyway, the Last Outpost ferengi comment took me out too – at least Ransom had a silly, but acceptable, rationale for calling the 23rd century TOS. This one, too in-jokey referency.

Being able to be “meta” and break the 4th wall, so to speak, is part of the show. They went into “cinema” mode in one of the episodes so they could do things they couldn’t do in an standard episode.

Considering the format and style, I’d be upset if they didn’t pull these kind of shenanigans. But that’s just my take.

Well, breaking the fourth wall doesn’t really work for me unless there is a “reasonable” explanation. For example, Deadpool has that as one of his superpowers.

The closest Trek had come prior to LDS was DS9’s Far Beyond the Stars which is a fine episode that handled the issue with utmost dignity and care.

But just being able to quote episode titles or humming main themes is beyond me. It’s totally illogical, even within that format and style. Constantly refering to in-world characters and events is already a stretch sometimes.

Well, I just don’t get it. But that’s me being uptight and mentally inflexible I guess :-) It’s okay…

I’m surprised to see people clutching their pearls. While the show wasn’t as funny as previous episodes, it was still entertaining. My wife and I were laughing out loud at a couple of scenes.

Going of my previous post, I didn’t hate the episode. There was just one thing that pulled me out of the episode. Overall, it was a good episode, but certainly the weakest of the lot so far.

A lot of old school Trekkies here. The kids on Reddit loved it.

As an “old school” Trekker I can happily say I agree, it feels like pearl clutching. Sure, the poop gag was a … well to be fair I gave it a chortle at first. The second time around it felt forced. This show doesn’t always hit the comedy mark, and I feel like the references at times can take me out of the universe (the TOS “those old scientists” bit was great, calling these Ferengi “last outpost ferengi” without a similar logic to it was less great).

But it’s got comedy that appeals to a broad variety of tastes while still hitting the Trek feels – and I don’t mean nostalgia, I mean, what other franchise deals with villains by convincing them the economics of the situation makes conservation more profitable than poaching. Love it.

I really liked the episode but I can understand how it may have felt offensive to some people too. I don’t think its a huge deal though. It’s the internet, people react. And yes it actually seems to be well liked on most of the reviews I saw or read, especially on Youtube. I thought it was really funny though.

And my other guess is they will probably will go even farther with stuff like this in the future so it may turn off some people even more. For those people if they are that bothered, it’s probably just best not to watch the show.

Considering the big hullabaloo over this episode and the Mugato sex, some of you went WAY overboard. The way some folk were going on I was anticipating an X rated scene but this was….. SO tame. You saw maybe three shots of them going at it. The rest was shots of Brad and Sam trying to get the hell out of there. Anyone would think they’d shown satanic imagery based off some of the reactions

Being a Brit who grew up in the 1970s, I grew up with off-colour comedy on TV, such as Benny Hill, Kenny Everett and the Carry On films, so a wanking mugatu just made me chuckle.

Lower Decks, like all Star Trek can be a bit uneven but there has not been a stinker of an episode yet.

I enjoyed it. It’s not a Saturday morning cartoon for the kiddies, so give them some leeway to be crass from time-to-time and pipe down with puritanical pearl clutching.

and pipe down with puritanical pearl clutching.”

The sad part of this bizarre decree is that you probably thought you were being clever.

Why are you so incapable of understanding that other people have different opinions and why are you so determined to attack anyone with one?

Nah. I just thought your “pipe down with puritanical pearl clutching” directive was lame.

It has been one step above Saturday morning cartoon for kiddies so far, though, A small step to be sure. But it has certainly been aimed squarely at kids.

I laughed my ass off… so did everyone else in the room…

The dog too?


My goodness, all the prudes in the comments.

Comedy in Star Trek is always hit or miss, but this episode had me in stitches. I am so glad that the producers of this show decided to take the gloves off and have some fun. It shows.

I liked this episode. It was less frenetic and self-referential than many of the other LDS episodes. The jokes mostly landed. I didn’t mind the coarse humor. Honestly I didn’t find it that coarse, and far be it for me to be puritanical.

Late to the party, accidentally posted review to the All Access thread instead of here where it belongs. Pls feel free to correct double posting. Thank you!

I’d say, cut those Mugatos some slack! – they’ve just been separated from their partners for who knows how long, in cages – so no wonder they’d want to get together…this was much Wildlife channel.

I get that, as a parent, it may be disappointing when all you wanted was to have a carefree and dependable half hour watching this and suddenly find yourself having to explain to your children what exactly these animals are doing..

Also for whomever the presumed jerking off of the third Mugato kinda takes some seriousness away from a canon figure, I suggest the alternative headcanon that he’s not jerking off, but self-affirming his male dominance in a traditional horn-touching gesture..

But as an adult, I am much more disturbed by graphic violence i.e. a head bitten off than by a positive depiction of sexuality.

I think the hidden joke was that the three Mugatos resolve their conflict *peacefully*, with the third one willing to *compromise* ;-D, mirroring the main story. Haha, I like resonance in storytelling and these Mugatos really were the exemplary diplomats :-) 

The topic of the episode (fact-checking of fears and not confusing assumptions with reality) was up-to-date and connected all storylines to each other, and fear was a common topic in all three threads (both with regard to getting carried away by fears in the Rutherford/Boimler and T’Ana storylines, and the useful protective function of fear proven by its absence in the biologist ;). With the overall message that fear can also be useful but awareness of assumptions and fact-checking them is important. This also relates to mistrust vs. trust. That’s good writing in my opinion..

I really liked Rutherford’s rocket launcher-style presentation beamer! 

Also, it’s funny that Dr T’Ana is together with Shaxs who on the field trip was animated like a sniffer dog. 

Dr. T’Ana is currently becoming my favourite character. I think the facial and also animal animation in this episode was again very good. And the friendship between Lower Deckers this season is heartwarming. Apart from the way the biting-off-a-head scene was done, I liked this installment!

First… “Uncharacteristically lowbrow”? The bulk of the show is lowbrow. What is the author talking about?

The author also if that is true writes that this show’s humor works best when that humor comes organically from character. If that is true then give me inorganic humor any day of the week. At least that would be FUNNY! The author complaining about some of the more coarse attempts at humor I guess stem from that fact the level of humor for this show has traditionally been extremely soft. Nothing crossing a line. No risk taken. And even here, the jokes about the pile of mugato dung… Not really a risk. Just a tried and true poop joke. But we’ve seen such gags many times before on in many forms in other places. They CAN work but only in the right circumstance. And this show isn’t it. So I think I see where he is coming from but I think the flaw here is in claiming the extremely soft jokes that are the staple of the show are funny to begin with. But I feel it necessary to add that while the author complains about the poop and sex jokes, one must remember that CBS and the author continue to call the show “adult comedy”. Up to that point the show really hasn’t been. I’d have no problem letting a 6 or 7 year old watch season one. They’d probably love it. The humor feels like it is aimed straight for that level. But now they have upgraded to voyeurism gags. Still not funny but at least the age level has shot up a few years! It’s almost like someone at the show said, “this is supposed to be an ‘adult’ comedy but we’ve done nothing ‘adult’ in it. Better write some alien sex in it.”

At any rate, this episode I feel was slightly better than the others only in that I was happy to see the Caitian Dr do cat things. The purr… The hiss… And I was wondering if she was going to curse again. First time she’s done that this season. It can bring a smile when she is cursing up a storm. Sometimes it’s actually funnier to beep out the curses but I’m wondering if it would still be amusing if they just let the words out. They can. After all… Isn’t this supposed to be an ‘adult’ animated show? Even Archer dropped an F bomb in their finale last week. (Which had a way better season than any LDX season)

But, I’m sorry to say… I’m just tired of the silly tropes this show embraces. I just don’t buy that Mariner can beat the crap out of anyone. Sorry, I just can’t. And the “Power of math” line could have been used in a way to show how dumb the line is. But this show used it as a reason to praise Star Trek Discovery. That’s twice now this show made a “please like Discovery” reference. Hope this isn’t becoming a trend.

Anyway… There were a couple more smiles in this episode. And a couple of chuckles. And still some clever stuff. But still waiting for a big laugh out loud moment. But I’m ready to wager anything that will never come.