Recap/Review: ‘Star Trek: Picard’ Runs Deep In “Seventeen Seconds”

“Seventeen Seconds”

Star Trek: Picard Season 3, Episode 3 – Debuted Thursday, March 2, 2023
Written by Jane Maggs & Cindy Appel
Directed by Jonathan Frakes

A taut action episode with strong classic movie vibes still finds time to deliver emotional punches and move the season plot forward in a big way.

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WARNING: Spoilers below!


“What might I have been?”

Red alert! Our heroes use the nebula to try to evade the Shrike as Vadic casually fires volleys of torpedoes, making good on her threat to peck away at the Titan, but eventually, they lose her. Nebula stuff is causing havoc, preventing warp and blinding sensors, requiring them to station officers to literally look out a back window… including Side Eye Guy, hmm. After a quick uncanny flashback (including some Deanna FaceTime) to a quieter moment with Riker telling Picard about his son’s difficult birth and the seventeen seconds (episode title alert!) he spent in the “longest turbolift ride” of his life worrying he might lose him, we jump back to the Titan to learn the nebula features “fun” (according to an ironic Liam) electrical and biological(?) surges. The Titan settles in for some classic hiding with a shift rotation and the captain piping in some Mozart to calm his crew, so Sidney uses the time to visit Seven, who has been confined to quarters, to give the ex-Borg a nice little pep talk, name-dropping her famous dad, naturally… and calling her “Commander Seven.”  Respect will now commence.

It’s also red alert in sickbay: Everyone clears out so Jean-Luc and Beverly can finally get into it over Jack, and another battle commences. Crusher reveals just when their child was conceived and explains it was maternal instinct that convinced her to leave Jean-Luc and Starfleet behind without a word to keep her son away from the threats that seem to follow Picard. He is not buying it, angry over how she took choice away from him and pondering what might have been if he could have chosen a life with her and a family. Even seeing the pain she caused, Beverly is resolute, but says she did eventually encourage Jack to make a connection with his father, a suggestion the kid declined… also he got his accent from some time at a school in London. Picking up on plot stuff, Bev can only conclude Vadic’s interest in Jack must be another threat tied to Jean-Luc. (She is really one note on this topic.) After Riker gives Jack some good fatherly advice, Picard grabs him to head to the bridge just as the Shrike inexplicably finds them, tearing into the Titan in a brutal attack that leaves Captain Shaw severely injured. He hands Riker command as he is led away, bleeding badly. Together, Riker and Picard pull off a sneaky little maneuver with a torpedo and phaser to knock the Shrike back, flipping their classic roles. Later, they will look back at this fun moment as the good old days.

Is it weird how in the middle of a battle, everyone left sickbay?

“I’ve heard worse from bigger legends than you.”

Back on M’Talas Prime, Raffi awakes on La Sirena with the worst hangover and news that Starfleet has swept the attack under the rug, pinning it all on the severed head of T’Luco the renegade Romulan. Searching the ship, she finds a Klingon doing some tai chi—who says hello with his knife, naturally. More formally, Worf introduces himself, now going full Khaleesi with his titles, but he still enjoys a nice cup of tea. Raffi is impressed to have such a legendary Klingon warrior on her ship, but he reveals he has been working on himself since his storied days with her old pal JL, now acting as a “subcontractor” for Starfleet Intelligence. She puts the pieces together that he is her mysterious handler as she starts to remember his sword-fighting introduction while she was tripping hard on splinter, trying to shake down (the now headless) Sneed the Ferengi gangster. Drug withdrawal and her whole life is dragging her down, but Worf rallies the struggling operative and tells her she has the heart of a warrior; together they are going to follow his next lead, tracking the lowlife who paid off Sneed… and so she is back in the game. Soon enough. the pair is on the streets, full of fun banter as they quickly find and capture Titus Rikka, who not looking so good.

Using La Sirena’s engine bay as an interrogation room, Raffi and Worf play some good operative / bad operative, with Raffi channeling some Martin Riggs crazy energy. Worf tries his new zen approach, but the heavily sweating criminal won’t say anything about who stole the tech from Daystrom. Raffi thinks this guy is suffering from withdrawal, but the lure of a fix doesn’t help. As the interrogation drags on, including a lame attempt to pin things on the Romulans, Rikka fesses up that he did the tech heist, along with some “like-minded souls” who hate the Federation. As he (literally) starts to come unglued, Rikka is now singing like a canary: The portal tech was just misdirection from something else more dangerous. He wants to be released really badly and Worf works it out… “How long have you been away from the Great Link?” If you had changelings on your villain bingo card, you are a winner! With the game up, Rikka goes full baddie, calling them “solids” (classic) and gleefully predicting their plot will destroy the Federation before he goes all liquid, then gets promptly (and casually) vaporized by Worf. (This is not his first founder rodeo.) The former Niner gives us a quick recap of the Dominion War, revealing he has known of a terrorist faction that broke away from the Great Link who are seeking revenge. Now he and his new partner Raffi will go to Daystrom to figure out what Starfleet-destroying thingie the baddies really stole.

Dude, you are more messed up than I am.

“We fight or we die.”

Things are also getting tense on the Titan, with Picard suggesting offense and Riker preferring defense, telling “Crash” La Forge to keep the ship “squirrely.” (Is that in the Starfleet helm handbook?) Science officer Lt. T’Veen Vulcans out the energy pulses have a biological signature, so they are actually inside an unknown anomaly, and logic dictates not to go any deeper. Riker takes the hint and plans an escape as Picard’s continuing needling to take the fight to Vadic really gets on his nerves. As soon as they start to emerge, the Shrike is on them, firing a portal weapon to draw them right back in… and they do it again for good measure. A frustrated Riker orders the ship deeper into the anomaly as a pained Picard loses another debate to turn to attack. Meanwhile in sickbay, Beverly is saving Shaw’s life as he works through the agonizing pain to ask Jack with the key question: How does the Shrike keep finding them? Jack goes to Seven for help, sorting out there must be “blood in the water,” which she concludes could be a space gas leak. Taking down her guard, the pair confirms the leak and determines it’s not due to damage, it’s sabotage… or is that sabataage?

Picard sees this news as a chance to set a trap, but Riker is not having it and accuses Jean-Luc of being “amped up” over the Beverly/Jack thing. In the gas-filled engineering compartment, Jack is confronted by the saboteur—and of course, it’s Side Eye Guy. The pair fight, and before getting knocked out, Jack notices when he punched the bad guy, his face got all swirly. (Yep, it’s another one.) Left to die without his breathing mask, Jack has a weird vision of Seven and vines and a red door before the real Seven pulls him out. Learning Jack is injured, Picard has his own agonizing seventeen seconds in the turbolift to sickbay, arriving as the boy is flatlining. Dr. Crusher does her thing and brings him back, putting an actual smile on his father’s face. With new determination, Picard returns to the bridge to accuse Will of acting out of fear of loss, only to get shut down and told to “Sit down, Admiral!” Ouch. Ensign Changeling has one more trick and blows up a warp conduit, so they aren’t going anywhere. As running away is now off the table, Riker tries Jean-Luc’s plan to get behind the Shrike for an attack… but Vadic’s ship comes straight at them and after Riker fires “everything we got,” the Shrike uses the portal to send the torpedoes right back at the Titan, crippling the ship as it falls deeper into the anomaly’s dangerous gravity well. An incensed Captain Riker orders Picard off the bridge, accusing him of getting them all killed as we fade to black. Cliffhanger? No!

Remember when I said you could call me “number one”? I take it back.


Running silent and running deep

“Seventeen Seconds” amps up the action in a big way, bringing classic submarine movie (along with some classic Trek) vibes with intense battle sequences that make this a worthy episode on its own. But once again, the show truly shines in the dramatic moments between characters, with these more personal battles proving even more harrowing. Two Takes Frakes kept the story flowing with pacing that balanced this action with some quieter character beats, along with some great gags, mostly from Michael Dorn’s still wonderfully deadpan Worf. Throwing in some major character and plot reveals extended the anomaly battle to make this more of the first installment of a two-parter, but that still works as a solid Star Trek episode.

Where things mostly diverged from the classic Trek formula was in the two personal conflicts for Jean-Luc Picard, here Patrick Stewart delivers some of his best performances of the series. The confrontation with Beverly was heartbreaking, with the reason behind keeping Jack secret seemingly inconceivable, but when you start to think about how much trauma the TNG crew really went through, perhaps there was some reason for it, with Picard showing how years of constant life-threatening events could make someone do what she did. Also new, the growing conflict between Riker and Picard, culminating in their own Crimson Tide moment, which was definitely not something we’ve been used to seeing with these characters. While it might not have been Starfleet to do it all out in the open, which could be explained away by both characters being out of the game for a while, the scene was riveting and daring, once again showing that Picard season 3 is not simply recreating the moments we love, but evolving both the characters and Star Trek storytelling. As for the conflict with Shrike itself (and a more subdued Vadic from Amanda Plummer), the show continues to impress in how they are finding new ways to do space battles, with the portal weapon a great new element to play with.

You can tell me, I’m going bald just like him, aren’t I?

Also fun to watch: Worf and Raffi bonding as the veteran Klingon taking her under his wing to lift her up as she struggles with her mission and personal issues. They make a great team, with Michael Dorn and Michelle Hurd showing off some great chemistry. And here, too, we are seeing an evolution of Worf, and not just through his new extended family titles. He is trying to evolve and find a new warrior monk path that isn’t just about violence, even after his bloody introduction in the previous episode. This B story is not just driving plot exposition but is becoming a fun character story with a lot of potential, buoyed by some great comic lines written for Worf (with “Beheadings are on Wednesdays” as a fave). Another pair-up that worked was Seven and Jack on their side adventure, with Ed Speleers going from a guy with a nice bedside manner to a smart man of action. Todd Stashwick didn’t get a lot to do but Shaw continues to be a delight; even on his sickbed, he was the only one smart enough to be asking the right question.

One scene that may be controversial was the flashback with Riker and Picard. Jean-Luc’s own “seventeen seconds” (which literally was timed to 17 seconds) was done well enough that it didn’t really need this bookended setup to get the message about him making that emotional connection to his son—and without it, we wouldn’t have to deal with the always awkward CGI de-aging. Even though it’s great to finally see Marina Sirtis, the trope of the haranguing wife doesn’t do much for the character, who is expected to have a more significant role in the back half of the season.

Smoother than an android’s bottom…

Deep space shine

There is also a lot to unpack in this episode when it comes to the season plot arc, with the revelation that Changelings are behind the conspiracy, now fully linking the Titan and M’Talas storylines with shapeshifters in both. It is commendable that this big reveal came in episode three instead of getting dragged out like another season-long mystery box, however Rikka’s mention of “other like-minded” people could include other conspirators. It also isn’t clear if Vadic and her soldiers are also Changelings or if they are just working with this “terrorist faction.” One thing about the plot that doesn’t add up is why the Titan mole Changeling tried to kill Jack if Vadic wants him alive. Maybe this indicates different factions within the conspiracy? Worf’s quick voice-over recap of the Dominion War should succinctly bring any viewer up to speed, and fans of Deep Space Nine are surely relishing all the connections, especially his mention of “a man of honor,” as his source within the Link, surely meaning Odo himself. The mention of the “real” thing stolen from Daystrom is also quite intriguing, opening up all sorts of speculation, with the earlier mention of Lore being stored at Daystrom an intriguing clue.

While none of the characters seem to have a clue why Vadic wants Jack alive, we as viewers may have gotten a big clue when he was having his near-death experience. That vision of Seven saying “Connect the branches” has to mean something. There was more to it, but it was clearly not meant to be fully understood in this episode (closed captions only offering “Seven of Nine speaking indistinctly, echoing”). It could be there is something hidden away in Jack’s mind, something even he and his mother aren’t aware of. Or is she? Who knows. Let’s hope this isn’t dragged out with recurring visions like Picard’s childhood flashbacks in season 2. So far, season 3 seems to have left the show’s sins in the past, but season 2 did get a bit of love when Picard noted “I know now I would never have been my father,” showing he did have a true breakthrough last season.

By the way, the nebula/anomaly giving off energy and biological readings is for sure a clue to something. Already getting some serious space amoeba vibes.

Call me a solid ONE more time, Squishy.

Final thoughts

Three episodes in and Star Trek: Picard continues to be a compelling new show finding the right balance of classic Star Trek tones with modern storytelling and evolving familiar characters. The production values are excellent, with the music from Stephen Barton worthy of highlighting in how he helps take the viewers on this journey switching from action to heart to humor. The cliffhanger of “Seventeen Seconds” did the job of leaving viewers wanting more but still feeling like they just watched a complete and satisfying episode of peak TV.

Sure I didn’t tell you about the kid, but remember how much fun we had under the waterfall?


  • The flashback at 10 Forward would be around 2381, as they were celebrating the birth of Thaddeus Troi-Riker.
  • Based on dialogue, Jack Crusher was also likely born around the same time.
  • Beverly revealed that Jack was conceived with Picard on Casperia Prime, a vacation planet first mentioned on DS9 as the Risa-like planet Jadzia Dax planned to take her honeymoon with Worf.
  • Crusher also mentioned Jean-Luc being assailed by Reman assassins in the Donatra sector. Remans were introduced in Star Trek: Nemesis, which also featured a Romulan commander named Donatra.
  • Shaw’s command authorization is: Shaw-12-11-Bravo Delta.
  • Among the items in Seven’s quarters was a model of the USS Voyager. Admiral Janeway had a similar model in her quarters on the USS Dauntless (in Prodigy).
  • Verterium was first identified on Voyager as an element used on the warp coils of Intrepid class ships, like the USS Voyager.
  • When Riker ordered the Titan to “fire everything we got,” it could be an homage to Kirk saying the same in Star Trek 2009.
    • As a side note, the ship only fired four torpedoes. Is that really everything?
  • Worf practiced some Mok’bara (aka Klingon tai chi).
  • In addition to his new sword, Worf also carries a Klingon D’k tahg knife and a Starfleet Type 2 phaser.
  • Worf serving tea to Raffi must have been a callback to his classic “good tea, nice house” line from TNG’s “Survivors.”
  • Worf’s extended self-introduction “I am Worf, son of Mogh, House of Martok, son of Sergey, House of Rozhenko, bane to the Duras family, slayer of Gowron” is a mini-history of his arc on TNG and DS9.
  • Worf described himself as a “subcontractor” to Starfleet Intelligence, so it seems he is no longer officially part of Starfleet.
  • Music from the episode included…
    • Rollin” by J. Clearwater played for 10 Forward flashback scene.
    • Mozart’s “Ave verum corpus” is played by Seven.
    • Hector Berlioz’s French opera Les Troyens, listened to by Worf—the same part that Picard was listening to before the battle with the Borg in Star Trek: First Contact.
  • The Titus Rikka Changeling was played by Thomas Dekker, who as a child actor played Thomas Picard in Star Trek: Generations and Henry Burleigh in two episodes of Voyager. He is best known for playing John Connor in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.
  • The Changeling saboteur on the Titan (Side Eye Guy) was named Ensign Foster in the credits, first identified in episode one. Presumably, he was masquerading as the real Foster, fate unknown.

What if I made you a nice cup of tea?

More to come

We will discuss the episode in detail on Friday’s episode of All Access Star Trek. every Friday, the All Access Star Trek podcast covers the latest news in the Star Trek Universe. The podcast is available on Apple PodcastsSpotifyPocket CastsStitcher and is part of the TrekMovie Podcast Network.

Picard streams exclusively on Paramount+ in the Americas, Europe, the Caribbean and South Korea. It also streams internationally on Amazon Prime Video in more than 200 countries and territories. In Canada, it airs on Bell Media’s CTV Sci-Fi Channel and streams on Crave.

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It was a good episode but i find the pacing a bit off(the pacing of the 3 episodes so far reminds me of S2) and while i find Vadic/her ship the shrike interesting i hope they get away from her in the next episode.
As while i love the ship shots in the nebula and the wormhole weapon(which is pretty awesome looking) i find it a bit tiring of them being chased. 

So the Changelings are back or at least a terrorist splinter group that wants to destroy the Federation for defeating the Dominion though i don’t think Vadic is one of them though.
I’m thinking that these Rogue Changelings and Vadic are working with others groups to destroy the Federation and these other groups will be revealed through the season.

I liked the Worf/Raffi scenes they were some of the best in the episode (i enjoyed the reference to odo) though the Changeling CGI could of been done better(the original CGI from DS9 and the one from Discovery S4 looked better aesthetically imo) as it looked more like Yaphit from The Orville.

With all the experience that Picard had as Captain/Admiral he should of know that convincing Riker to attack the shrike after seeing the wormhole weapon being used to corral them wasn’t a smart idea.

The talk between Picard/Beverly was nice to see but i don’t like her reasoning as to why keeping Picard in the dark about Jack.
Yes i get it she did it to protect Jack but they were both Starfleet officers their lives are always at risk everyday either from a spacial anomaly or just going to a planet.

Overall a good episode as i said but the pacing feels off a bit to me.

I don’t think you’re necessarily supposed to LIKE Crusher’s reasons for hiding Jack from him. But I think it is realistic in that it is the kind of choice a nervous new parent might make if they really think being associated with the father will put the child in imminent life-threatening danger.

Sure, Picard is not a bad person, but it is somewhat analogous to a woman abandoning an abusive spouse after the birth of a child. They might be able to rationalize putting their own safety at risk in the relationship, but once a child is there, the entire perspective shifts (i’ve actually seen that happen).

I think it’s actually a good thing that her reasons aren’t entirely understandable to everyone, because it gives Picard a justifiable reason to be angry. Conflict = drama.

A bug for me is Vedic. What exactly is her motivation here? We still have no clues. She already obviously has money, loyalty, superior weapons and lots of power. Does the Dominion have something on her? What’s her deal? And even if they did have something on her she doesn’t look to be in a position where she could be blackmailed of used.

Do we need some reason for her? There are just ones that enjoy to be mean or very good in their Job’s. Perhaps she is really an Bounty Hunter and got this Nice Ship to do the Job. How knows

Yeah… I would say we kinda do. Being mean just for mean sake is a little too cartoony. Remember Lorca?

Yes, Lorca, the character who even those who hated DSC loved.

True…I did like Lorca…Jason Isaacs did a nice job with that (wasted) role.

Adding Mount to S2 was a huge help, but a missed opportunity not having Isaacs return as the real Lorca.

Really? You liked that Lorca was turned into nothing more than a 1 dimensional cartoon villain? That was ultimately why people hated him. They took what was potentially a multidimensional fascinating character and reduced him to Snidley Whiplash.

It would have been great if the Prime Universe Lorca was brilliant but actually not that different – and if the stories presented still challenged us to understand him.

It would have been great if he wasn’t from the MU and was the same morally gray figure we were lied to with.

Yesh, but he was very popular until the reveal. Even afterward, I sort of separate the Lorca I enjoyed the first half of the season from the final reveal. That is to say Jason Isaacs’ Lorca was the best thing about season 1 of Discovery (up until the Mirror Universe reveal). It makes me still want to see the “real” Lorca.

And I was fascinated with the character, too. Until the reveal. That reveal ruined everything about him. It killed all interest in Lorca. Even the prime version because I knew that version, based on his evil counterpart, would not be an interesting character.

We still have seven episodes to go so there’s plenty of time to explain who she is and why she’s doing what she is. Like the Godfather, our true enemy has yet to reveal himself/herself. We have Founders who learned nothing from The Dominion War, Vedic, whatever those aliens on her ship are (Breen?, Jem’Hadar?), Lore and someone most likely pulling the strings. Man, am I going to be ticked when they reveal it’s the outrageous Okona or Wesley Cruaher.

All true. And for the record I never expected a 100% reveal of all things Big Bad by episode 3. In fact, I’m slightly surprised she showed up as early as she did. But I did expect a clue or two by her 2nd sighting.

We’ve gotten clues in Episode 3. You’ve just clearly not picked up on them even though they’re being screamed in your face. I actually had a chat with someone about this with a friend:

Matalas isn’t hand-holding the viewer spelling out everything, and I give him kudos for that. He’s giving the audience credit enough to connect the basic dots without having to have a character just exposit everything. But for some reason, a lot of people aren’t connecting basic plot points.

This is why it’s strange when people complain that shows spell stuff out too clearly, or too much. Because when they don’t, people don’t see it.

I think it’s good to ask these questions. I don’t think it’s good to make a judgement before you get the answers. The mystery is part of the fun. We’re getting new pieces to the puzzle each week, but if they dumped everything too quickly, there’d be no mystery left and less to look forward to.

Last week we got answers on Jack, this week we got a big villain reveal. Stay tuned.

That’s fair, with the caveat that if it goes on too long with no explanation the cackling Big Bad act grows tiresome, even for Amanda Plummer.

For sure. But as long as we’re getting SOME answers to things each week, moving things forward in that way, I think it’s reasonable, even if it’s not the answers you want first.

She was at 100% power in 3×02, but much tamer in 3×03 when we even saw her. Feels like they know enough not to overplay some stuff, which is frankly shocking and refreshing. ;D

At the rate S3 has been bringing up and then answering questions (instead of holding onto them to hastily resolve in the finale), I have — surprisingly — faith that her piece of the puzzle will slide into place next week.

Yeah as the review pointed out, it was crazy of how subdued she came across in this episode, almost like the scene chewing character we saw talking to the Titan was just playing an act. I was one of the people who was very hesitant over her when we originally saw her in the trailers but now there is a lot of intrigue about her and how she plays into all of this.

She seemed like a thoughtful captain very much in control of strategy and tactics in this episode.

Nothing like the cackling, unhinged persona she was conveying in her communications in episode two.

She’s toying with them, and she’s a cooler customer than she intentionally let on.

Exactly! It does feel much more like an act, like she’s just toying with them. I can see why people like RMB were saying don’t judge the character too soon, there’s a lot more going on. Everything about her has become very mysterious now.

She toned down the cackling this week quite a bit.

Given it is Changelings, I will now revert to my previous guess that Vadic is a surgically modified Vorta.

Not an unreasonable hypothesis.

Thomas Dekker also played Picard’s son in Generations.

And the creepy boy in Capt. Janeway’s Victorian holonovels.

lol! Yes!

Holy Crap! That little brat was terrifying. Like Joffrey from GoT as a small child.

Thomas Dekker also played Picard’s Nexus son in Generations and also one of the fancy kids from Janeway’s holonovel on Voyager.

Well, three in a row, I really enjoyed that one as well.  Some insight about Riker’s lost son, I found the reasons Beverly withheld disclosure of Jack to Picard valid and actually realistic, and the way Worf introduced himself with that litany of titles (!), what a trip.   Michael Dorn looks fantastic, he has indeed, ‘been working on himself.’ “Beheadings are on Wednesdays.” Great lines written for him. And I like how Riker whipped out the Captain bad stick on Picard…he knew the limitations of Titan, and was right to hide and try to escape, imo.

Changelings, oh my. Nice mystery brewing up here. And that portal weapon is something very interesting.  A lot going on here, with a nice cryptic ending. Things are looking grim for our heroes, can’t wait until next week!

All I’m sad about is that the first two seasons of this show were essentially wasted, save a couple of noteworthy episodes. I hope the rest of this season proves as compelling as what we’ve seen so far. Great stuff.  I was just thinking how lucky I am, 57 years old this year and both new Star Trek and Star Wars at our disposal.  My daughter marvels at how I’ve literally been, and will continue to be able to enjoy both franchises nearly all of my life (I was 11 when A New Hope came out). Incredible.   Great review, Anthony!

As frustrating as it might be that the first two seasons weren’t this good, I try to think of it as a productive use of time, as they clearly learned something along the way. Just like the first two seasons of TNG…

Very true. I actually gave “Conspiracy” a re-watch last week, in case the parasites, et al. were going to be the big bad this season, and while I enjoyed it, Wow, Season one of TNG was pretty rough, wasn’t it. I’d forgotten how much.

I tend to skip season 1 on rewatches, and then during 2020 I did a full rewatch of all Trek, in order (even swapping between DS9/TNG/VOY episodes as they would have aired) and yes, TNG Season 1 is very rough to sit through. Even its best episodes are a slog.

It really is a wonder how it survived…

Wow, that’s like 700+ hours? So having done that, with that big-picture perspective, what stands out to you as the defining moments/episodes of the franchise?

I watch Trek enough that I didn’t get any new insights. It was just a fun thing to keep me occupied after being laid off during Covid. FYI, I did not watch TOS or anything post ENT. Just TNG through Enterprise.

Edit: Ok, one thing that did actually pop out to me was how much more continuity there was between shows than I remembered. The Maquis crossing between all three shows in a relatively short span of time, specifically.

I did something similar in 2017 and again during 2020 after major back surgeries kept me off work for awhile. I confess, season one of TNG & VOY go down easier under the influence of prescribed narcotics. The continuity does really stand out and I came to appreciate how much closer to its finished product DS9 was at launch than the others. The visual look changed and the show of course improved but more than anything there was greater character development and growth on DS9 than on the other series. Even the supporting characters were better developed than Crusher, Geordi, and pretty much everyone on Voyager that wasn’t Janeway or Seven.

Doing a TNG rewatch now and not only is season one awful (although I like Conspiracy and The Neutral Zone), but season 2 while better, still isn’t very good but the lows aren’t as low and there are more quality episodes. It starts to show what it can be free of Roddenberry’s sexism and interference.

Had forums like this and the internet existed back then, I don’t that it would have survived. Fortunately it launched at a time when there wasn’t as much competition and shows were nurtured and given a chance to succeed. Say what we will about Berman but his landing control of TNG probably saved it.

But this is why I laugh at people who call Pic Season 2 “the worst season of Trek ever.”

Picard S2 wasn’t great, the plot was a mess, a lot of odd choices. But the themes were strong, the performances were good, the action was fun at times, lots of individual moments that were great.

TNG Season 1 is almost pure, unadulterated garbage that’s tough to sit through even for a few minutes. There are almost no bright spots. the only thing worth watching for is nostalgia, to see how it all began. That’s it.

Yes, Let’s hold up as an example that episode on what my African-American friend at the time called “Planet Homeslice” – the pseudo-Africa planet. Dear gods.

I think you’ll outside Picard taking out the fleet with the Borg never got good apart from this season where they play TWOK complete with a David Marcus.

Aw come on, they needed those first two seasons to figure out the best way to use a portal. (Season one had synthetic life interdimensional portal. Season two had synthetic life/Borg interdimensional portal)

Glad you enjoyed it Danpaine and always love reading your posts!

Yes this was just done so well and the reveal of the changelings was just a great moment. I can’t remember the last time I was that excited about something on Star Trek. It has upended everything in such a great way.

And obviously I agree about the first two seasons. Both of those had so much promise in the beginning and both wasted by the end. But Star Trek has become famous where third season finds a way to step up its game and become a great show. Unfortunately it’s this show’s last but it feels like its going to go out with a huge bang at least!

What a great reveal and plot twist. It is sad that Rene did not live long enough to see this for himself!

Yeah it is sad about Rene. The Worf line was perfect, but I now wonder are we going to hear more about him or not? But I imagine if he was still around, Odo would definitely be in this season.

Hey, Worf and Camomile tea — what else do you need?

After what for me, for all the hype, were two fairly lackluster episodes, it was a real pleasure to watch a Picard where all of the pieces mostly fell into place. Some really standout writing and directing (Frakes has frankly long-since proven his bona fides as a director more than Leonard Nimoy ever did) made for a very entertaining hour of television. Still hate the dark look, in which the Titan comes off more as a drab posting for Stafleet undesirables than a genuine underdog, but for first time I’m actually engaging with the story and characters, and am genuinely curious to see what comes next. That may sound like damning with faint praise, but I call it real progress.

Same, same, same!

Glad you really enjoyed this one Michael as did I! It was all done so well and yes Frakes knocked it out of the park both behind and in front of the camera in this episode. Frakes is just bringing it and why he’s so loved. Next episode is suppose to be even better and he directs that one as well.

While I certainly liked the second episode, it was a big down for me compared to the first one. This one made up for that one and a whole lot more.

“17 Seconds” was a magnificent episode, a remarkable upturn from last week’s disappointment. Back in “First Contact,” Picard said of his mistakes, “I’ve made some fine ones.” And in NEMESIS, he said that his Academy instructors considered him overconfident. But far too often, we haven’t seen that side of his character, and his actions last week — Riker’s, too — reeked of hubris. Well, “17 Seconds” didn’t hide that hubris; it embraced it, basically portraying this pair as two Greek heroes. Riker belatedly realized that he was thoroughly in the wrong, and Shaw right; but even here, he was unable to completely disattach himself from the legend of Picard, and eventually gave in to his mentor’s entreaties to attack the Shrike, with tragic — and predictable, given what they’d seen of Vadic’s portal — results. It was heartbreaking to see Riker almost entirely jettison his role as kohai to Picard’s sempai (“sit down, Admiral”) — almost entirely, but not quite, and that “not quite” came at the worst possible moment, when growing a backbone counted. (Shaw did exactly the same thing last week, after Picard barked “admiral’s order!”) I love the way the episode asks, “what do you do when your menor, or parents, or father figure, ends up being flawed and utterly human?” So — as with FIRST CONTACT (the movie), or as with Janeway in “Equinox” — we see the heroic leader, or two of them even, utterly flunking the test of leadership. Would I want to see this happening every week in a Star Trek series? No; as I wrote last week, “when Jean-Luc Picard shows atrocious leadership, you’re very far from the heard of Star Trek.” But when it happens on an exceptional basis — and where there’s a *reason* for doing so, whether that’s PTSD from the Borg, or belatedly becoming a father, and where the series *acknowledges* the poor leadership instead of trying to hide it as genius, well, then you’ve got meaty stuff. And then there’s Picard himself, rational enough to realize he owes Shaw an apology for his actions in “Disengage,” but still blind enough to be oblivious that he’s doing exactly the same thing to Riker. And Beverly, too; her reasons for ghosting Picard 20 years ago were thoroughly understandable (“those stars cost me my parents, and my husband, and Wesley!”) and yet completely unjustifiable. The dialogue was sublime, and the facial expressions (as in the closing moments of “Disengage”) even more so — Stewart’s pained visage, eyes closed, was absolutely haunting. You can tell that both of these two, Stewart and McFadden, were stage actors. Even some of the new characters, like Dr. Ohk, didn’t escape unscathed. Her state-of-the-art sickbay equipment failed to indicate Shaw’s life was in danger; Beverly’s retro medicine did. Now, as to where this is going: unlike in a Greek tragedy, I assume the entire crew doesn’t end up dead, so I suspect that at some point Picard will redeem himself, or at least be forced to put duty over family. And again, I wouldn’t want PICARD to be DISCOVERY, an starship of misfit (and largely incompetent) toys. But I’m a lot more optimistic, this week, that that journey will be a worthwhile one. A few shorter takes: – Plummer toned down her over-the-top, histrionic performance of last week considerably. She was positively subdued when having her crew fire on Titan (“again”). We’ll see where this character ends up, but at least there are some signs she’s not following the Nero-Khan-Edison-Georgiou path. – The closed captioning in the first few minutes, which said “Changelings clicking,” spoiled the big reveal. – Personally, I’ve been awaiting a followup to “Conspiracy” forever, so I’m a trifle disappointed that the parasites aren’t making a return. But “what did Picard and Co do during the Dominion War” is still one of the great unanswered questions of Star Trek; I don’t particularly mind the Changelings making a return. – Michael Dorn stepped into Worf’s shoes effortlessly; we’ve missed him for 20 years. And if Secret Hideout really does want to do a Section 31 series, featuring these two is a better bet (creatively, at least, as opposed to “how will it play in Penang?”) than the hissing Georgiou. Worf and Raffi (and Shaw) are the only ones acting with a lick of common sense and professionalism. – T’Veen hit her limited screentime out of the park. More, please. – Troi was not reduced to a “nagging housewife”; her comments were clearly tongue-in-cheek, as the concluding line “bring the whisky” shows. As to what I’m expecting next week: the living nebula will probably rescue Titan, as a bit of a deus ex machina; I’m expecting the action in the middle of the series to revert to Daystrom Station, Earth, and/or the Starfleet Museum,… Read more »

I think that element is fab and works wonderfully.

Amazing, simply put.
The conflict between Riker & Picard is completely unnecessary though but I get they’re just trying to do something new

I found the conflict between the two of them to be organic and reasonable.

Yeah, by the end of this episode, Riker is starting to feel more like Shaw. He’s loyal to Picard, but now he’s just thinking “what the f did you drag us into?”

Of course, one would have to be foolish to think they won’t be back to be buddies soon enough.

It was, until that last line of the episode. That was a bit too harsh imo.

That’s the point. They’re trying to say something about where the character is in that moment that he would say something so harsh.

I am okay with this, they are both better Friends and Buddies, that this Dispute will harm their Friendship. If all calms down a bit, i bet both return be the best Bros

May have missed something that I’ll catch on a rewatch (and in the case of this particular episode that thankfully won’t be a chore), but what was Riker’s beef with Picard anyhow? No one forced him to get caught-up in Picard’s rescue mission, much less take his tactical advice. (Plus, on general principle it strikes me as bad form for even a temporary captain to loudly announce to his bridge crew that they’re all doomed.)

Swan gave up the command to him, inclusive the Lifes on this Ship, including Picard. Picard here is emotional compromised like in Nemesis “Moby Dick” Sequence. There he had his own Crew back him up. Here it is “innocent Titan Crew” that Riker took over on his Shoulders from Shawn

i can understand this dispute and i can understand both sides. But Riker has (for me) the Clear Mind then Picard. Anger overcomes Picard, where Riker still trying to use his Head over his Emotions

Also the Old Vulcan mind melting in Picard’s History is wearing off.So no Bonus anymore here

I think it makes sense. Picard’s family is there on Titan, so he wants to fight to protect them. Riker’s family is out there, so he wants to run to get to them. thus a tension between two reasonable people and two reasonable courses of action.

You know I don’t think I caught that, but that’s exactly right.

Good analysis.

Wow, nice analysis. Did not think about this at all.

Agree. It didn’t seem genuine to me based on what we know about the characters and the respect they have for one another. Besides, ripping your retired friend and former captain in front the crew comes off over the top and unnecessary. That’s what ready rooms are for.

Okay, the Changelings was not on my radar of being the Bad guys. I was thinking with Odo’s return to them, they become confident that all is good now. But that some had vengeance thoughts.. Well, that is new.

But this Saboteur on the Titan is a bit “Deus Ex Machina” here, where did they know Picard & Riker would take the Titan? So how they has the opportunity to get rid of the original Crew Member and replace him with an Changeling?

Also i forcast that they get the Enemy blowup with an Space Mine, putting in their tracks

But, here i got again asking to much Questions, i am sorry

“Okay, the Changelings was not on my radar of being the Bad guys.”

Wait, really? It’s been a non-stop conversation item in this forum since before the season began, thanks to dialogue in the previews, as well as the creators saying in interviews that this show was connected to the aftermath of the Dominion War.

i thought this where false flags

I don’t think you understand what deus ex machina means.

Every one are happy and take their hands and all together they sing Kumbaja!

Deus Ex machina = unexpected solution to a problem.

Not unexpected; heinously improbable. Also not a solution so much as the brushing away of a dire plot complication. Just the writers just giving up and forcing things along.

A great example of this is the androids’ magic wand fixing the La Sirena’s unfixable engine in Season 1.

This would have been a Deus Ex Machina if it were the only changeling in the entire series who somehow got stuck on the Titan and committed a random act of vandalism that just so happened to be a humongous benefit to Amanda Plumber’s otherwise untenable plan with astonishingly convenient timing.

He knew where to go because he was the guy listening to them talk in the bar.

Aahaa! That is a good catch. Bravo

The camerawork in Episode 1 clearly indicated that Picard and Riker’s conversation in 10 Forward was being spied upon (which is also why the Shrike learned where Beverly and Jack were hiding).

With Picard already being tailed, they only need to keep tailing him until they learn he intends to board the Titan. With Worf telling us about the changeling plot in this episode, at this point we’re probably meant to assume the spy was a changeling. Heck, the Titan’s changeling might even be the person who was eavesdropping in 10 Forward, in which case they didn’t need to worry about where they were going until they got there.

I get it, but focus so many Changelings around Picard?. Why not Sisko?. he done the Fights on DS9. Not Picard. But well, perhaps they also have more Eye and Ears on all the others

But okay, i let it slip. it’s is just a bit to plot driven random convenience

A) he was in the bar when they made the plan and b) as far as we know, Sisko is still with the Prophets.

Not the same guy, but uncomfortably similar.

How can you so confidently say that it wasn’t the same guy, when we’re dealing with LITERAL SHAPESHIFTERS?!

Yes, it wasn’t the same actor, but how could we possibly know that it wasn’t supposed to be the same character?!

That said, I think that we should be SUPER SUSPICIOUS of any and all characters at all times from here on out, as the nature of this enemy is to fool us into thinking that we know who’s who. For example, could the Deanna that Will has alluded to having had issues with, be a changeling, only for it to be revealed much later in the season?

I think that we, the audience, should truly heed Beverly’s words now, too, and “TRUST NO ONE!” ❗️❗️❗️

This is gonna be FUN!!! 😃👍

Well, i paid no attention to it, because they could have used him as extra cast just to fill the scene with Life

But as i said. i am over it now. Just wondering that Sabotage was to convenient there right now

So – because Jack is Picard’s son, that dream and connection w/ Seven seems like he’s going to have a little bit of Borg connection via Locutus. Love bringing the Changelings back in – they did seem to give up the ghost a little too easily at the end of DS9 and it’s shame we’ve lost Rene. Seeing Odo again would be nice, and of course with the makeup and either voice acting or even deep-faking you could get real close but it just wouldn’t be the same.

Hate, hate, hate Beverly and Jack(2) using the same Carol Marcus excuse. Bad writing, bad idea and undermines everything, **everything** that Beverly should have learned as a mother to a fatherless child the first time around. They are really messing that character around in a bad way. Maybe she’ll turn out to be a changeling and it’s all big shell game.

or Seven did here some Deep Mind injection with her ex-Borg tricks. But how can memories been transferred trough DNA? No this Jack seems to be special. More special that we currently known of and that’s they want him alive.

Did we watch the same episode? Because Crusher’s reasons were pretty different than Carol Marcus’ and were completely justifiable and understandable even if you might not agree with them. I think they did a great job of making it make sense.

Yeah, I was surprised how well that worked. It’s a maturely reasoned conversation with nicely considered arguments on both sides.

I mean, I think most people would agree Crusher was in the wrong. But not that far: her logic is sound, even if unreasonable, because when the life of your child is at stake…



I think it only makes sense if Crusher believes that Picard is compromised by the Borg – remember that he in a way ditched his friends to obsess about AI, built an evacuation fleet out of unnecessary AI constructs, etc. Now he is in theory AI which is equal to organic life, something not even V’ger could achieve.
I’d have it where they want Jack to force Picard to surrender himself and his AI tech to replace organics to the Borg, in return the Borg will destroy the Federation for the changlings and agree to carve up the galaxy with the Dominion.
Jack would be seeing the connection passed on in a way to him that he could discover the Borg have been farming the Federation the whole time.

I think it makes sense either way. She said it perfectly: being the son of Picard puts a target on your back (remember Bok?). She felt she could keep her own son safe, but with all the enemies Picard has, and all the continued attempts on his life, she wasn’t sure she could keep the son of Picard safe. That all works for me, and if that’s all there is to it, i’m fine with that.

I don’t really buy into that “oh someone generic might be after you, so no kid for you” argument. Every Starfleet officer has a target on their back, including her in a way. If she really believed that why have kids herself and concurrently with a Starfleet officer not once but twice.
And if Crusher is so concerned why would she then take said kid to the frontier. “Hell, you could be raised on Earth, but I need to be a Doctor on the edge of known space to help people but that’s ok, unlike some generic obscure potential threat with your Dad (… who is on a wine yard… in seclusion on Earth)”…….. okay there…
The only way that makes sense is that Picard IS compromised and Beverly knows it from her medical scans. Maybe even to help Picard she kept it hidden, otherwise he would never have been given command of the ENT-E pre-First Contact.
“I kept him from you because I know you unconsciously can work with the Borg, but can’t cure you and don’t really want to wreck your life telling you something that may or not come into play. I keep Jack with you, he might end up with the Borg.” I think then even Picard would agree with her decision.

First off, I disagree that every starfleet officer has a target on their back, and certainly disagree that it would be the same size target as a key Starfleet figure like Picard, who was the captain of the flagship and often in the crosshairs of Starfleet’s greatest enemies.

Second, it might not be the way you would play it, or even how I would handle the situation. Maybe it’s irrational, but it does have a certain logic to it from a certain perspective. That’s all it needs. I think there’s this fallacy that every choice a character makes has to be the right one.

If every character made perfect, logical decisions, these shows would be boring. I think it’s fair to argue that Crusher made a mistake to do what she did, made the wrong decision, or made it for the wrong reasons.

That’s ok narratively, in fact that’s good for the story.

I think what is good for the story is to have Beverly Crusher MD be a rational, strong and intelligent character. They should have just copied Carol Marcus’s rational (you have your world, I have mine) and pretend like she thinks Picard’s first love is being a starship captain vs. being a Dad. Or engineering AI to build an evacuation fleet or whatever.

I think there’s this fallacy that every choice a character makes has to be the right one.”

F*cking thank you.

Stanning for women that kidnap their children and raise them fatherless… in the name of Star Trek… is a pathetic new low for this comment section’s fandom. Carol Marcus is the villain of TWOK, if you’re paying attention. Without her lie, none of the tragic drama unfolds.

Interesting take, but I think your rage at this issue (possibly because your mother did that?) is blinding you to the fact that I am not defending Crusher, i’m defending the narrative choice.

A chasm of a difference there.

Carol Marcus makes way more sense.
Kirk’s first love is the Enterprise. Being a Starship Captain is his bag.
Marcus knows if she asked Kirk would have left to be a Dad and be perpetually unhappy, probably end up a bad father and husband.
Also she told Kirk about David Marcus eventually and they agreed to the arrangement (Kirk I think internally would be relieved that she made the decision for him).
That’s totally different than “Kirk, you have a dangerous job, therefore you cannot be a Dad! Not like me as a Medical Doctor on the Final Frontier where there is no law and danger all around me!”

Actually, Carol Marcus’ not only makes less rational sense, but is even more awful. At least Crusher did it out of concern for her son’s safety and life. Marcus just wanted David to herself, and didn’t want him “adventuring the stars with daddy.”

That’s just cruel and uncaring no matter how you look at it. Like JP says in this ep, nobody gets to decide for you.

in fact there’s no reason why Beverly didn’t just tell Picard he has a son who doesn’t want to see him. This way she could’ve been straight with Picard.

If you have two friends who used to be lovers who no longer talk to each other and also no longer talk to you, you begin to draw conclusions.

But none of their mutual friends put two and two together?

In Crusher’s defence Picard seemed to have ignored all his friends to focus on AI and the evacuation fleet. So we’re they really friends?

If they are all not friends, there needed to be some kind of background on this. That does make sense, but makes fans’ heads snap. There is something about the way Picard started in Season 1 to lead us to believe that even if JL wasn’t in their circle, the rest of the crew maintained connections.

Although… apparently Crusher sent her son to boarding school long enough to get an accent. So she made some… interesting… parent/career decisions herself, to keep Jack safe while she did her thing. (Unless you buy that Jack took a gap year or something in England and adopted the accent within a short span, which I don’t buy, but YMMV.)

Presumably Jack joined Beverly as a young adult, preferring her flavor of galloping around the cosmos to the uniforms-and-duty Starfleet, and opting never to contact the father he never knew.

She didn’t lie to Kirk. He knew about David. “I did what you wanted. I stayed away.”

Beverly did not kidnap her son. She made a choice.

Kidnapping is definitely a harsh way of putting it, but it’s not that far off, either.

Yes bingo, Kirk knew about his son. He just went along with Carol’s decision because he wanted to pick the Enterprise without having to actually pick the E over his son. Convenient, lazy and 100% human. No one is perfect Saavik.
But at least he was given the info. Crusher either hated Picard, had no faith in Picard or thought he was compromised to not even tell him.

Kirk and Marcus both made the wrong decisions. But it made a good story. Just like in this episode. Crusher made the wrong decision, but it’s necessary for the drama it creates.

The only negative thing I will say about this scene is that the motivations for the Beverly, although understandable when explained, all happened off-screen.

That’s a really uninspired and easy way out of creating important character motivation, and I can understand why some people may feel like those reasons don’t hold much weight. I guess as an audience we weren’t privy to any of that as it exists as unseen exposition.

Unfortunately, it kind of had to happen off-screen. No way around that.

No necessarily, I mean we got a flashback to past events in this episode to highlight Picard’s relationship with the concept of fatherhood.

So, like that Picard/Riker bar scene, during Beverly’s dialogue there could’ve been a flashback where we see a de-aged Crusher as a new mom, alone on the Elio’s perhaps, with her newly born baby and looking at a report from Federation News Network about how much trouble Picard was in at the time.

Something very simple like that – although costly in terms of visual effects, would’ve rooted her motivations in something more tangible then just off screen exposition.

Lol I wanted David Marcus and a TWOK series, I am getting David Marcus and a TWOK series so I am sold.

Yes, they could have done it as a flashback, but that’s still kind of off-screen, in terms of it being a retcon. I’m not sure what that would have added, or if it would have made it more digestible for skeptical types.

Yeah it was actually a reversal in this case because Beverly told Jack about Picard, but he also decided he didn’t want to meet him. And the kidnapping thing is a bit much lol. There are lots of fathers who don’t even know they are in real life until much later. Yes she should’ve told him but I get why she didn’t.

One thing that has been missed in this conversation is that Beverly was utterly committed to having this child from the moment she knew she had conceived, but that she and Picard had once again ended their relationship.

While most of us assume that Picard would not have tried to persuade her to terminate a pregnancy, this is something that happens, so women can and do stay silent to avoid that pressure.

Picard as he is now wants a son, but in 2381? Would his own fear of being a bad father had led to a yet more awful rift had he asked her to consider terminating the pregnancy?

Tough stuff, and currently sensitive. I can see this though through the lens of Beverly’s right to control her body, and her determination to put the life and safety of her unborn child first above all.

By the way, in principle, I really like that Thaddeus and Jack were born the same year as Riker and Troi’s daughter Natasha and Picard and Crusher’s son Rene of the Relaunch novels. It’s really cool how Matalas is pulling together major continuities across alternate timelines.

My spouse and I still find Spleleers utterly unconvincing as a 20 year old (when he looks nearly twice that). He’s an excellent actor and it’s understandable why they would want someone of his calibre, but this isn’t the stage or even blurry low definition 90s television. We just don’t buy it.

Yeah he’s way too old looking. A bizarre casting choice.

For once, I think they’re genuinely just looking for a great actor, and I suspect, someone who could lead their own series. That he looks a little old? Meh, i’d rather it be a great actor.

Well, he’s playing the son of a character that already looked older than most do at their age, beginning with TNG’s season 1, so… I do see the issue as well, but have to take that into consideration also.

His accent (and the writers’ “explanation” for it) bug me way more, as they simply appear to conceal the fact that Speleers just can’t pull off a convincing American.

Now THAT’s what I’m talkin’ bout. Excellent episode, right across the board–possibly the show’s best so far. Even Rafi was enjoyable, for once. Nicely played, CBS.

This was the first episode where I wasn’t bored with Raffi. I think that more had to do with the presence of Worf. The only character on TNG I was interested in.


Agreed. Everyone was on their A game here. While I didn’t have a huge issue with Raffi the first two episodes and it was great to see her being an intelligence officer,, it did drag a bit. Now I’m excited to see where it’s all going. She and Worf are really the people who is working on what is happening. That’s what makes the story interesting, we’re seeing it play out in two different places and neither side has a clue what the other is doing…yet. So I’m curious to see how they will bring them both together and how Worf ultimately ends up on the Titan as we saw in the trailers.

Raffi really needs someone to interact with.

The chemistry between her and Worf is fantastic. We have to give Matalas credit for figuring out that this would be a great way to profile Worf who often is at his best in dynamics with one or two other characters.

Having Raffi alone in La Sirena interacting by text, wasn’t ideal.

I’m really missing the Rios holograms. If they are going to use the ship, it would be great if they could cast someone to be a recurring character with one or two of the Rios holograms. They could say that Raffi feels uncomfortable/loss with seeing Rios image with the holograms, but values their input.

I was completely under the spell of this episode until Riker ordered Picard off the bridge. While that scene may show how Riker has been affected by the years since his 17 second experience when Picard hasn’t even digested his yet, it’s not something I can imagine would happen. Both of these men understand how important it is to convey confidence and hope to the bridge crew. Doing that is going to be like muscle memory for them. I would have been more interested to see them agree or disagree about what to do without having an actual breakdown.

On the other hand, Captain Shaw’s bridge crew members are virtuosos at not reacting to command officer drama.

Depends how fresh this Crew are behind their Ears. Also in the heat of the battle an Dispute on the Command Officers helps no one. It can get in worse case scenario only more Deaths. There is not time to dispute this in the Captains Ready room, like we are used in TNG

Remember where Data was Commanding Officer and he had to remember Worf how to play by the rule? Same energy

Also, i would myself being seen in Riker’s defensive action tactics, then on Picard.

(Psst, auf Deutsch ist zwar beides “erinnern”, aber auf Englisch gibt’s hier “remember” für “sich an etwas erinnern” UND “remind” für “jemanden an etwas erinnern” — im obigen Satz zu Data und Worf wäre demnach die zweite Variante korrekt! ☝️🤓)

Riker is letting his daddy issues cloud his thinking. He doesn’t see a man who made a foolish error….he sees a dead beat dad.

It didn’t feel right to me either. Especially since they’d been pretty jocular through all this. Although it does remind me of Admiral Riker in All Good Things.

Again, this season is credibly hitting the character beats of alternate timelines, from not only All Good Things but also from the Relaunch books (as well as technical designs from STO).

In the Relaunch books, Picard has to come clean decades later with Riker and Beverly about decisions he made as captain in the years between Insurrection and Nemesis. He had excluded them from the information to protect them, but it still doesn’t go over well.

More, in the books Riker gets promoted to Admiral ahead of Picard (for related reasons and because he paid attention to Kirk’s advice). So, there are times when Picard needs to seek Riker’s help as his old friend in the Admiralty.

With a couple of the other 12 Monkeys writers in the room for this season, it shouldn’t be surprising that they can weave elements of the other timelines in. It’s still a a gift though.

You know, you’re right, it never dawned on me about Riker in AGT. Good call.

I enjoyed it. I don’t have much to add, other than how impressed I am with how disgusting the Changeling shapeshifter effects are now. Kill it, Worf! Kill it!

Episode 3 managed to reel me back in because I wasn’t completely feeling the first 2 episodes. I thought it was really good, with only a couple of dialogue bits that bothered me. Escpecially Frakes’ work was exceptional, both behind and in front of the camera. It think his work as an actor in this one might be the best he’s even done as Riker. Also I’m greatful he really showed off the sets in all their glory. Now even more I get to appreciate the work Dave Blass has done on his limited budget. Props also to the cinematographer, who did a much better job than the previous one. It’s still dark, but at least it’s no longer insanely dark. Thanksful the writers came up with a few more storylines than just the two main ones from the previous episodes.

I love they revealed the changelings and still managed to feed us new bits of mystery, like with Jack. I am a sucker for a mysterie, as long as it’s not dragged out.

One of the only things that bugged me was the use of Troi as whiny housewife. I loved the scene (actually thought the de-aging was done really well), but they could’ve given her some more love. And lastly: again a new (old) uniform?! Or was that a STO uniform that I don’t know about. I would’ve loved to have seen Riker in his Nemesis uniform. The final nitpick is Worf’s ears and his thin wig. They could’ve given him a bit more hair.

I give this episode a solid 8.5 (or maybe even a 9 if it wasn’t for the Troi thing) out of 10.

If Terry Matalas hadn’t outright said she survives and that things work out between Riker and Deanna, I would have for sure pegged her or Riker as dying after this episode.

Nope. After Beverly’s betrayal of JLP, denying him a chance to be a father, and Jack of having a father, she’s headed for the grave. In her sacrifice, JLP and Jack will forge some sort of relationship.

Picard dies saving Jack. That’s my guess.

That would be one way to go. Kill him twice? Doubt it.

My guess is that Worf’s look was probably dictated by Dorn’s desire to keep his time in the make-up chair down. Who knows.

The thinness of the wig would have nothing to do with time in the chair, it’s a wig application regardless of how thick or thin it is.

We’re used to seeing Klingons having thick hair. It’s the one aspect of his new look that I have issue with. That’s why we’ve never seen his ears before and he looks different, because in the past even if his hair was tied up it was thick enough to cover them.

I love seeing him back though, it’s a very minor thing.

I don’t mean to belabor the point but for all we know he didn’t want a heavy wig. honestly, I didn’t even notice it was any thinner. Probably because the show is so dark!

I’m just glad that, after all these years, we have finally seen Worf’s ears.

It’s official, he has ’em! We can all rest easier.

I do recall one of Dorn’s concerns before signing on was time in the makeup chair. I completely get it. Think of how much of his life he’s spent getting crap glued to him. Considering how poorly Abrams and Discovery ruined the look of the Klingons it was good to see the classic look again.

Discovery’s Klingons were still the highlight of that show to me. Loved them, wished it had carried over to this. Would love to see Worf look like that.

It totally works, and actually isn’t as far from traditional klingons as DSC-hatemongers like to claim.

The thing that bothers me is: Hadn’t Jean-Luc already proven that he wasn’t going to be like his father in The Inner light, when he had 2 children who seemed to be pretty well raised?

Granted, he was Kamin at the time, but still…

Hm, interesting thought. Hadn’t considered that. A few possibilities jump to mind if we want to justify it:

1) he wasn’t such a great father on Kamen, which isn’t hard to imagine considering how he was still a conflicted identity with Picard, and the only glimpse we ever saw of him as a father in the ep was him yelling at his son.

2) His experiences on Kamen faded over time, the way a dream does.

3) he doesn’t consider his experiences as a father on Kamen valid for real world, since they weren’t technically real, and it’s possible his entire life there was pre-programmed based on a real person.

My responses to your possibilities (:))

1.) I am not entirely sure that Picard/Kamin wanting his son to have “a real job” and expressing that to him is him not being a great father; yes, only a glimpse of their overall interaction, but it didn’t seem as if they disliked each other, or that Picard /Kamin was a overly confrontational person towards his son in that interaction. What parent doesn’t want their children to be a little more grounded when it comes to making a living?

Plus, his daughter didn’t seem to interact with him as if he were a bad parent either.

2.) If his experiences on Kataan faded over time, why keep the flute?

3.) I can maybe, slightly, see your point that his entire life there may be a pre-programmed thing that he had to carry out, but I don’t think so very much; he was all Picard in his actions (taking charge, making proposals to keep the community/planet alive, etc.); plus, he referred to his “past” life to his wife, which wouldn’t have come out if he were preprogrammed to live it and only observe as you are sort of suggesting.

But, more so, he experienced things there – love, loss, etc. – over many theoretical years… they aren’t things that one would necessarily shrug off as invalid because they were not real.

Just because the experience faded over time doesn’t mean it faded entirely nor would it mean the emotions over them faded.

After all, we all have strong connections to items from our childhood even if we don’t have specific, detailed memories of those items. I may have vague recollections of the chest my father kept on his dresser when I was a kid… that he gave me when he moved a few years ago… but i still have strong emotions attached to it.

This episode has some incredible moments, absolutely gut-punching stuff and all very well acted. The sickbay moment between Picard and Crusher was riveting, and actually payed off Season 2! I was certain there was no way the writing would make convincing sense of this revelation, but they pulled it off brilliantly. This was all made possible by the incredible performances between Gates and Patrick, they sold it! If that wasn’t enough, then we had Picard and Riker in another intense and brilliantly written/acted series of scenes. So much of this relies heavily on how well the writing is aware of character voice and history, and they just nailed it! This is the type of show were fandom really pays off, this feels like the show was actually written in the Berman era, it doesn’t feel like some mismatched creation like Season 1 and 2. And of course Worf! Perfect balance of humor and intensity. I will say that Michael may have had too much to say, they sped up his line delivery a little too much and they lost much of his characteristic mannerisms. It is too bad that Worf wasn’t listening to Klingon Opera, but at least it is Opera and a nice call-back to FC. Some of the pacing in the episode probably could have been done better, some moments need more breathing room or camera focus for dramatic effect (mostly in the action scenes).

The Changling revelation was certainly the geek-out moment for me, although I will admit I had this figured out in episode 1 when Crusher insisted on vaporizing the intruders. And despite this revelation, the mystery is only getting bigger and more intriguing. And they’ve done a brilliant job weaving the bigger story into the separate ones, so you can see the threads pulling them together. Very compelling stuff and I can’t wait for more.

Well, actually a good point. If Crusher knew to vaporize, and Riker put his fingers in dust …. why did they both say nothing more?

On the other hand, even though they knew they kept coming back with different faces, the Crushers could be forgiven for not clocking these were Changelings – since when did they ever use guns?

Snowball fights in hell. I’m liking what I have seen so far. Not sure what else there is to say that hasn’t already been said. Is it possible the show will fall over a cliff? Absolutely. But three episodes in and I’m engaged. Not sold, however. I’ve seen too much garbage from Secret Hideout to let go of all cynicism. But even if this show ends up being good it won’t erase the damage Secret Hideout has done. They would need to make at least three other good seasons before they can be let off the hook. And I STILL don’t trust this production company to do that. So at this point, if this season ends up being good, as it looks it might be… I will still say it was a mistake.

The way you’re treating the production of a TV show, gotta say, it doesn’t sound like a healthy way to go through life.

No worry, where there is Light, there is also Shadows. You can not make all fans Happy bathing in Sunlight, some other prefer to sit in the Shadows to save their taint

Gotta find something to bitch about, so you’ll prop up a few Secret Hideout strawmen to kick around. Must be a s**tty way to go through life…..

It’s amazing that if a franchise produces stuff a disgruntled fan doesn’t like, the fan treats the people who make it like they’re some kind of villains…

So we are just supposed to forget the garbage they made up to this point? Sorry. That’s not realistic. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a straw man argument here. They did make enough bad Trek for quite some time that it will take more than 3 decent episodes to make some fans feel as if they have learned lessons. You might believe a con man if he told one truth after a bunch of lies. But most of us need more to earn trust. Not doing that is the s**tty way to go through life.

You know this is a TV show, right?

Marvin the paranoid android – Hitchhiker’s guide to the Galaxy… Rings a bell?

Entertaining book and I enjoyed the series. But you are not seeing the difference between bemoaning everything everywhere for no reason whatsoever and ceasing to trust a source because they have betrayed you too many times even if they are honest once.

Maybe the responsibility of what you say are failures is not so much with Secret Hideout as it is with the actual show-runner? In this case it’s Matalas and he probably has nothing to do with the past “mistakes”.

Perhaps. But Secret Hideout hires the show runners. So if things don’t go well they are ultimately responsible. I also suspect they are at least somewhat involved in the production. Leaving some of their fingerprints on most of it.

Good God. They’ve made episodes of a TV space opera that, for a variety of reasons, you don’t happen to like. At the same time, many others have liked at least some of those same shows. No one has betrayed you, any more than J.J. Abrams betrayed me by making Trek 2009, a film I detest to this day. Filmmakers do their best by their own lights, and you can’t please everyone.

You are getting a little too worked up over an internet comment thread. So you thought I used too strong a word. Try calming down and look at things with a fresh perspective.

You might believe a con man if he told one truth after a bunch of lies. But most of us need more to earn trust. Not doing that is the s**tty way to go through life.”

In an actual, real-world situation? Absolutely. Reacting to a TV show, nah…I’m an adult.

So why are you here commenting on worthless message boards like children playing with toys? Aren’t you an adult?

Definitely not.

I am definitely not, I mean.

Zoos are fun.

Sharing opinions and having discussions with strangers in comment threads are fun, too.

I’ve never seen you seem like you’re having fun. You watch shows that make you miserable week after week after week, for 5 years, and then you go online to tell everyone how you hate them and why everyone else should hate them too.

Sounds like fun!

Hey now, no kink-shaming.

This one won me over in a way the others haven’t. Worf was really great here. I’m glad it’s changelings and tied into the Dominion War instead of some sort of parasite. I could take or leave Raffi over the years, but pairing her up with Worf has really given her character some life.

The conflict between Riker and Picard felt a little too much, especially when we know they’ll make up, but I enjoyed seeing that side of things.

The excuse they came up with for why Beverly kept Jack away was weak. The scenes between her and Picard were terrific and really well acted however and that lets me overlook the weakness of the other parts of the story.

I can’t say I loved the brief Deanna scene and comments and reviews don’t give me hope they have anything better planned for her. I’m not wild about them doing a Thad and Jack parallel and having Riker, Crusher, and Picard conflict over being parents while Deanna is sitting at home with Kestra. Hopefully it’s a mislead and she gets something good once she really shows up.

From the latest trailer it looks like Deanna is captured onboard The Shrike so I’m guessing things don’t go the way you hope.

From nagging, party-pooper mom to damsel in distress. I wonder how many tropes one character can embody in just one season? 😂

Yeah, I’m guessing since the Shrike retreated and they didn’t get Jack or Picard, they kidnap Deanna for some reason. It looks like she’s there alone and then with Riker so I wonder how that all goes.

Just searching on twitter a moment ago, I saw someone on the Star Trek Cruise say that she seemed really displeased with her story this season on the Picard panel today. Something about how she never wanted to play a mother onscreen. We know Deanna lives thanks to Matalas so I’m guessing she’s basically stuck playing the nagging wife and mom who needs to be saved for the most part. That’s a shame.

Sirtis did her best to deliver that seen with the dry, witty teasing tone that she had with Riker in her one appearance in Lower Decks.

But in this case it was too many words for it not to come across as nagging even so.

I’m happy as well it’s not the Conspiracy aliens. I can definitely see why people wanted them back and to tie up a 35 year old loose end lol, but the Changelings are so much more satisfying in so many ways because we know them and many, like me, have always wanted to see them back.

As far as the Troi stuff, agreed, but I think a lot more is coming for her as well. They are setting things up really well IMO and I’m loving the slow reveals of the characters so far.

I agree on the changelings being more compelling. Plus that’s a way to bring in DS9.

Yeah, it sounds like the rumors that she doesn’t appear again till the last four seem to be exaggerated and I’m guessing she has a lot in the last four. Hoping it good whatever it is and that it’s not just nagging wife. Sucks that she seems to be the one that got the short of the stick this time but I suppose it had to happen to one of them.

She’s also the character with the least to do. On TNG she was a counselor, and while she had a Starfleet rank, she was clearly not a career officer who wanted to command a starship or anything, so there’s no obvious way to put her into a major role.

Troi’s place in the story was probably a tough nut to crack, just as Spiner’s was because he was killed off. Claiming Terry Matalas “just doesn’t like Troi obviously” as i’ve seen people saying, is just plain dumb.

We’ll see. I can’t imagine Matalas and Sirtis not having the same kind of challenging discussions that he did with McFadden.

Troi was given brilliant scenes in Nepenthe, showing real toughness as a friend and counsellor.

We have also seen her capacities behind enemy lines in TNG Face of the Enemy.

She could have some good stuff ahead.

Totally agree! And in Nepenthe her scenes were great because they used her the way she’s meant to be used: as a counselor, a friend, and advisor.

I have no doubt that once Troi is more closely involved, she’ll have great material. And like you say, we know that Matalas worked closely with every actor to shape their roles. If Marina was unhappy with her material, it would have been changed.

Well that’s reassuring. Thanks. I’m hoping they all get a chance to shine. A review mentioned that she’s briefly in two of the other episodes, so at least it doesn’t seem like she disappears again till the end. The interview Matalas gave about the Riker and Troi family story and what’s planned should end the argument that he doesn’t like the character. I think it’s just a hard character to fit into this type of story like you said. It happens.

Mostly though I’m just hoping for some good stuff for Geordi once he appears. Dying to see more of that museum and the ships there and where that leads.

Before the season began, Terry made clear that not every character is in every episode, and so far that has been true. We’ve gotten a lot more riker than Worf, through three episodes, for example.

Give it time, let it play out, and we’ll judge when it’s all said and done. I’m not ready to jump the gun on how the characters are handled until it’s all over.

…aaaaand this is what I meant a few weeks ago that Ep.3 would make “a lot of fans who hated Trek since 2017 very happy.”

I know since then, a large group of fans have screamed to do a follow-up to the Dominion War. Personally, I never saw the need. The war ended, the Dominion went back to the Alpha Quadrant, Cardassia is rebuilding. You could cover it in a few lines of dialogue.

But we’re getting it, so I imagine a lot of fans are pleased, finally. Terry seems to know how to make the fandom happy, i’ll say that. Seems he’s paying attention.

I’m glad it is the changelings as well. Not the biggest fan of the conspiracy parasite aliens.

Really enjoyed this episode, enjoying the season so far. However 3 episodes of battle in the Mutara Nebula 2.0 is growing tedious.

I bought and really liked all the emotional stuff — Picard and Crusher, Picard and Riker, Worf just being around being Worf — and nothing else.

The de-aging was a pretty terrible idea (but I know they needed to find a way to use that Ten Forward set Akiva blew the budget on last season) because 1) it looked (mostly) really bad and 2) it’s nothing that couldn’t have happened in the present action, including Riker’s “17 seconds” story.

I could’ve done without Troi’s first appearance this season just being to nag her husband or Ensign La Forge’s entire personality being centered around being the daughter of Geordi La Forge or Seven just sitting there doing nothing until she’s “activated” by the dashing Jack Crusher — and I get that they need to make everybody stupid and inactive in order to make him seem more heroic, but Seven is so far away from the Voyager Seven that sometimes it’s a distraction.

Tinkering with Deep Space Nine just feels like a recipe for disaster. I think that show is unique in the Star Trek universe, and any voices that aren’t Ira Behr or Ron Moore (or Robert Wolfe or Rene Echevarria) just won’t be able to do it any justice. It’s not necessarily sacrosanct, but I don’t see how Picard show won’t just trivialize the elements of it that they use to fit their needs. If Changelings can be anything, then why be an easily captured Aaron Paul-looking dude who can’t even slip out of his handcuffs? Why not be Jack Crusher and get the real one off the Titan and into Vadic’s custody?

Anyway, looking forward to next week.

I’m kind of dumbstruck that Riker didn’t return Seven to duty after taking over as captain.

Ensign LaForge is such a joke of a character so far. The cringe factor is high whenever she opens her mouth about her father, which has been…every episode so far? I hope she is gifted with the agency of her own personality at some stage during this season.

Way to go Neop baby!

Yeah, it’s hard for me not to snicker during her moments but I am ON BOARD with the actor. They have given her crud material and worse direction. She doesn’t need to sound like a brat.

Her best moment so far has been her intro scene.

I have no problem with her, and her interactions with Seven are a particular highlight.

I thought that scene was really forced, and unearned. We haven’t seen these two characters interact before, so the supportive exchange had no weight to it at all for me. It seemed like just an excuse to remind/inform viewers that Seven was confined to quarters for insubordination, and for La Forge to have something to do other than pilot the ship.

The exchange would’ve been more effective if it had not involved Geordie being name-checked, because having her only talk about things in the context of her father’s experiences makes her own lived experienced seem extremely limited.

She says during this exchange that people never took her seriously because of where she came from; “People didn’t think I belonged either, “She’s here because people couldn’t say no to Gordie La Forge’s daughter””. Well then, with that being her experience, wouldn’t she have tried to step out of the shadow’s of that constant comparison? And try to express her own merits as an individual? Her habit of talking about her father constantly is at odds with what she said during this scene. She’s at once complaining about people associating her with her father, whilst associating herself with her father.

It’s not good writing.

No, it seemed to me like the set-up for a later relationship. And they made clear that it was indeed forced: the speech was rehearsed. LaForge was basically planting her flag on Seven’s side, letting her know where her loyalties lie.

This is good writing.

Easy take to have after having seen more of the season than others.
If this is a set up for some pay off down the road it still could’ve been handled better i.e. giving ensign La Forge a personality that doesn’t revolve around her father.

If she hadn’t namedropped her father in the previous episode, it would have worked better here when she did, absolutely.

There’s definitely not enough “less is more” here, but we have gotten some nice scenes with no dialogue, and I did love Picard executing Riker’s order before he even finished explaining it.

Absolutely fantastic. Real friendships, relationships have conflict. Gene Roddenberry’s vision was so outside of the box for its time, but still someone in another box. This season so far is beautifully written, deals with emotion, conflict, hope, everything Star Trek should be allowed with maintaining beautiful, special effects. It feels real, raw, emotional.

I’m sorry, but the so-called “fans” that are nitpicking and still bitching about every little detail are pathetic. Enjoy this beautiful ride and blessing we never thought would happen.

\Which begs the question: why didn’t you think it would ever happen? Because you like what you’re seeing now, but didn’t care for the shows that came before? Well, opinions on those differ too. No one gets to gatekeep on who is or isn’t a fan, “so-called” or otherwise.

What I took from his comment was “we never thought a TNG reunion would happen.” Has nothing to do with other shows.

Could be. If that’s the case, my assumption was way out of line, for sure. In my defense, though, there are a lot of gatekeepers out there, and even if you’re explanation is the correct one, no one should be putting scare-quotes around “fans.”

I think for many of us it’s frustrating when people come into these comments with relentless hatred, and use of overly nitpicky nonsense to justify that hate.

Personally, my frustration often stems from people who don’t seem to like ANYTHING about Trek since 2009, yet keep watching week after week, then coming into these forums just to sh** all over every new thing.

Difference of opinion is one thing, but if a person doesn’t like a thing, like at all, why are they here consuming it and discussing it? I don’t like football. You wouldn’t catch me watching games and then going into a sports bar just to tell everyone how stupid I think the sport is.

And if I did, you think they wouldn’t tell me to stfu?

Sorry, but one person’s nitpick is a deal-breaker for someone else. Opinions on Trek these days are all over the place, but they have been for a long time. Back in the early 2000s there was a very nice lady on this site who insisted that the third season of TOS was, in her opinion, easily its best. That seems fairly nuts to me, but I never called on it (other than to question why she felt that way), because, in the end, who am I to say she’s wrong?

To my way of thinking, there’s only one critical sin, and that’s to trash something without going to the trouble of explaining specifically what it was you didn’t like about it. Everything else is fair game.

Nice that you didn’t address anything I said.

But to your point, a difference of opinion is not a nitpick. Saying you hate an episode because of six extra words is.

But to your point, a difference of opinion is not a nitpick. Saying you hate an episode because of six extra words is.

An atheist (“in the beginning, God created the heavens”) might beg to differ.

The episodes just keep getting better!

Beheadings are on Wednesdays.

That’s now one of my favorite Worf lines all time, along with “Death to the opposition!” and “I am NOT a merry man!”

My favorites are,

Good tea…..Nice house…

I never played with bo…

“Captain, I am NOT a merry Man!” I sometimes go back to that episode to watch just that part, hysterical. I forgot how adept Dorn is at humor. This episode brought it back full bore.

He’s the perfects “straight man.” Iconic.

That easily remains the best line ever on TNG.

Am I the only one picking up a serious Section 31 vibe off of Worf?

It would be interesting that Worf was with Section 31 now and he’s also working with a former doctor colleague as well. ;)

I do think this week’s developments point towards the mysterious undisclosed cameo in season 5 as being a DS9 character, and not a Bajoran. That means Bashir or O’Brien.


As a DS9 fan I’m actually not happy. This makes no sense at all to me but I’ll need to wait and see.

As for who Worf’s handler could be…

My 100% unlikely theory but something that I desperately need to see is that it’s Odo himself (which I know definitely won’t happen unless they surprise us and recast) or someone representing him (100% unlikely again but Weyoun would be amazing.) I really need someone from the Dominion to work with the good guys too because this could get really bad for the rest of them really quick. My current main fear is that this ends up restarting the Dominion War.

I just hope it’s someone also from DS9 because 😮‍💨 it’s way too underrepresented for this.

Also my own mental health being bad currently has me feeling like an idiot for everything I’ve thought about this series and especially for saying that I love Vorta and think that Weyoun is cute.

Can you elaborate on what makes you unhappy and why it makes no sense, specifically from the DS9 perspective? I definitely understand the gripe that the Dominion/Changelings weren’t a TNG villain, so seems like an odd thread to follow for a TNG reunion. Is that what you mean?

Because otherwise, DS9 always made clear the dominion war affected all of the Federation. So story-wise, it makes enough sense, I think. Thematically, is a different story, if you feel it would be a plot best followed up with characters from DS9.

It makes no sense within the context of the Dominion and the Founders themselves. Yes people can just exit the Great Link if they want to apparently but their whole thing was being the Great Link, acting as one. Which is why I said I wanted to wait and see. Hopefully they explain that. Also their tactics doesn’t feel accurate at all for the Founders. Why would they be an ensign when they could have replaced, idk, Liam Shaw or Will Riker or Seven of Nine! Why would they be some lowlife thug when they could be someone more important and actually do something to destabilize the Federation!

As for why I’m unhappy, I don’t want the war being made about The Next Generation. Yes the war effected the entire Federation, I never tried to deny that. I just need more characters that we saw front and center fighting the war than just Worf there. Which is not to discount Worf at all, it needs to be more than just him.

And like I said in my original comment. I’m scared about how this will affect the rest of the Dominion. I’m scared that this will restart the war and this time they aren’t really the aggressors. Yes the splinter faction is but the rest of them sure aren’t.

Why replace this person and not that person? I mean, if it were that easy, it would make for a boring show. Why didn’t the Changelings replace Sisko in “The Adversary”?

Your other points are valid, I get what you’re saying. We’ll have to see.

Quite simply. Because they didn’t want to. Removing Sisko could ruin all of the fun and there were higher priority targets than him. Like admirals and people at Starfleet HQ.

Ok, so why didn’t they replace all the top admirals, heads of starfleet, section 31, etc etc. I used The Adversary as an example because the changeling was already on the ship.

A lot of the Changelings plans never really made much sense, tbh. It is what it is: sci-fi storytelling.

Ah. I too like to play board games by destroying the entire board instead of actually playing. I shredded all of the monopoly money, cut the board up and melted all of the pieces down! I win!

Hey, if that’s how you want to play the game, I can respect that.

I was being sarcastic sorry. They didn’t replace everyone because they couldn’t. Not without getting suspicious and also what’s the fun in guaranteeing yourself a win.

I can’t edit in these thoughts but at the core the Dominion were basically just like an abused child, grew up paranoid and afraid of other people and afraid of being hurt again. And there I found them super relatable. The Vorta and the Jem’Hadar were the walls that the Founders built around themselves, their shields from everyone else. The way they went about things was wrong, I will never not acknowledge that.

But the way that even the fans are jumping to assign the rest of them evil for the actions of this splinter group. If that happens in the actual show, it’s gonna prove their original fears and paranoia about the Alpha and Beta Quadrants right.

I wanted to see them learning to cope with their trauma and become better. I want to see them actually being friends with the Federation because they learned to trust and to lower their defenses. And this. This is not that. And it hurts me as someone that can relate to that part of them.

Sorry again. I think since my thoughts are along the lines of this reply it’s probably best if I don’t share more. If anyone wants them they can ask me for my discord or something like that but otherwise I should keep them to myself.

If that happens in the actual show, it’s gonna prove their original fears and paranoia about the Alpha and Beta Quadrants right.

I mean, one of the stronger points in DS9 was that the Founders *had* a legitimate complaint about solids mistreating them; look at “The Die Is Cast.”

Yes. That was part of my comparison and why I said that I could relate to them. I see myself in the Founders in that sense. They’ve been hurt before so they’re scared and paranoid of being hurt again. So they became the Dominion to keep themselves safe from what they view as threats. Which is never a good way to handle that but I can understand it.

“I’m scared about how this will affect the rest of the Dominion. I’m scared that this will restart the war and this time they aren’t really the aggressors.”
Er. none of this is real.

And? You have an actual point? I know that! There’s nothing wrong with me caring about the Dominion as a whole.

Don’t forget changelings like Laas that weren’t a part of the Great Link! They were a part of the 100 sent out by the Dominion to learn about the solids and then come back with information. Laas in particular absolutely hated solids so I could see him not accepting the end of the war very well. Ultimately though until we know more about this faction it’s hard to know for certain which part they came from.

In-Universe I would think that more characters should know about the Dominion War like Shaw and Raffi. They are certainly of high enough rank/age to have fought in the war. In fact some of Shaw’s behavior would make more sense if he fought in Wolf 359 and the war. I know the end credits scene references a ship and a star date that fans have placed during Wolf 359. Also his hostility towards Picard and Seven does lend itself to questioning whether or not he has issues with the Borg on a personal level. Ultimately I just get a vibe from him that would make sense if he had seen a lot of combat. I could be wrong though. As for the former Enterprise crew members I believe they said in the movies they were on diplomatic missions during the war so that would explain there lack of knowledge about how Changelings look when killed by phaser fire.

No I didn’t forget about them. And yes I said repeatedly that I just have to wait and see.

In universe yeah, Shaw and Raffi should know about the war. It should be taught in history class at Starfleet Academy. Even if people aren’t old enough to have fought in it.

Why would they be an ensign when they could have replaced, idk, Liam Shaw or Will Riker or Seven of Nine! 

Because even the Founders may not be able to mimic every aspect of someone’s personality (admittedly, the Founder that replaced Bashir managed to) or know all their memories — and the Captain and First Officer are the center of attention. If they act weirdly, everyone knows it.

Yes people can just exit the Great Link if they want to apparently but their whole thing was being the Great Link, acting as one.

I thought of this point, too — the Great Link is a hive mind, somewhat like the Borg, and supposedly does not have renegade factions.

But then again, there was Laas and the other Changelings sent to explore the galaxy, not to mention Odo himself. They all developed their own individual personalities pretty quickly.

if a Changeling separates from the Link, he gets a mind of his own.

Replying to myself again sorry but right now I have so many thoughts on this and the Dominion as a whole. I care about the Dominion. Not just the Founders but the Vorta and the Jem’Hadar too. I love them!

So if you see me adding more and more stuff to what I said and replying to myself more, I decided to just dump all of my thoughts instead of holding them back.

A very good episode especially Worf’s scenes. The submarine analogy was done better this time around. I just wish they’d stop playing the music from ST:TMP every time the Shrike appears, it’s distracting.

The phasered ashes now make sense.

Actually they make less sense now. Riker and Picard should have looked at those ashes and known immediately what this threat was connected to.

How much experience does Starfleet actually have with dead Changelings? There was the one on the Defiant in The Adversary, the one on the Jem Hadar ship in The Ship, and Martok. The Klingons probably didn’t give Sisko’s crew an opportunity to examine Martok, and Sisko returned the Changeling’s remains to the Vorta in The Ship. That leaves the one from the Adversary as the only real dead Changeling Starfleet would have had an opportunity to examine. Some people in Starfleet intelligence might be able to recognize a dead Changeling, but it probably isn’t something that any Starfleet officer would be able to recognize. Especially if they weren’t expecting Changelings.

I would have thought that since Starfleet was worried about Changelings, everyone in Starfleet if not the Federation would have some idea about what a dead Changeling looked like. But I guess you are right – I’m just in the middle of DS9 rewatch and it’s been a while – so your logic is helpful.

Well it wouldn’t be uncommon for an intelligence agency to hide important information if they thought that the harm it could do if exposed was worse than the help it could be.

Wasn’t a Dominion, or at least Jem Hadar, splinter group part of the plot from one of the post DS9 series books?

Not sure on a books, but they existed in the Armada video games.

This episode was pretty good at the emotional intelligence, which is largely a credit to the actors and Frakes direction. But all the Star Trek stuff – is there any? Everything related to STAR TREK that Matalas touches is shakier than the Mexican space shuttle.

” But all the Star Trek stuff – is there any?”

I don’t understand. All I saw was Star Trek stuff.

It did bother me a little bit that they kept repeating “tell the engine room to prepare to go to warp” when in the season premiere the show went out of its way to make a joke at Picard’s expense where Seven says that they don’t need to do that anymore. A lot of filler dialogue or overwriting. Countdowns, warnings, the news report on the recruiting station attack again. Just noisy.

Welcome to Star Trek, right this way, please.

Worf is being set up to be Space Iroh (Avatar: The Last Airbender). The quick disarming (demonstrating he may be old, but he’s still got it), followed by the calm, polite introduction, and then tea… Raffi has almost as many problems as Prince Zuko did. She could use a Space Iroh!

she doesn’t want Jack. she wants Jack in the center of the nebula.

Vadic was a little more interesting this time – without the theatrics. And I liked the surliness from some in the Titan’s crew.

Okay this is what I was afraid of. I am enjoying this season but my nitpick:

My feeling is that the story of the first 3 episodes could have been done in 2 episodes. I really hope the entirety of episode 4 is not just focussed on the crew trying to escape the gravity well.
There’s already way too much build-up happening.

And the item stolen from the Daystrom institute could only be Lore or B4.

Or Moriarty

Better a 3 parter which could have been done in 2 episodes than 2 episodes stretched into a full season…that’s what PIC season 1 and Disco S3&4 have been.
But i get your point. The parts on Mtalas prime took away the flow and felt a bit redundant. Ignoring these parts the new season feels like a movie. The movie which could or should have come after Nemesis, involving TNG and DS9 and Voy.

  • This was actually good, overall. 
  • It’s still very odd to hear Troi sounding like Eliza Doolittle 
  • Everything is still sooo dark. But not dark enough to make Riker’s wig look passable in that bar.
  • The transitions between the Titan and crime world were very jarring. 
  • Ugh, Raffi.

Oh, and I am really liking Shaw. In fact, the Titan crew are nicely put together. I would totally watch a Titan show with these characters!

I’m calling it now. The real reason that the Changelings broke into Daystrom was to free Peanut Hamper. She is the mastermind behind all of this.

Maybe but why when agimus is there and sounds familiar. I know you were joking, so am I.

agimus could have said something and they could have been like oh hey it’s Jeffrey Combs, we like that guy.

Well, obviously they assumed that Peanut Hamper was the superior AI based on her mathematically perfect name. Plus, Weyoun can’t stand Agimus’ voice so he vetoed that idea.

PLEASE BE REAL! Haha, can you imagine?

Firstly, I have to say that this was the first episode of the season that I really enjoyed. After episode one and two I 100% was not sure what all the hype was about from the people who have seen the screeners.

I think they possibly benefited from having had the chance to see these episodes in quick succession as I thought episode 2 was a real slog after a promising opening, and really only advanced the plot with regards to the son revelation – which we all knew was coming from episode one anyhow. And besides a quick introduction to Vadic and her ship, in terms of the wider story it ended up in the same position with little having changed from the ending of the first episode.

However, I really enjoyed this episode because it paused in places to give us some really nice, intimate character-driven moments that were not just reactionary conversations related to some immediate threat or decision. Riker and Picard in the bar, Picard and Beverly in sickbay, Riker and Jack waiting outside sickbay, and Raffi and Worf’s first conversation. This gave a chance for the actors to shine but also…shock…the writing for some of these scenes – Riker and Picard’s conversation about fatherhood and Picard and Beverly’s conversation about her decision especially … were actually well structured, balanced and engaging! Poor de-aging SFX aside, it was so refreshing to have the pace slow down to allow for these moments.

In particular I feel like Matalas kind of took the broken fragments of a really poorly told tale of Picard’s family life from season two and used it to great effect within the scene with Beverly, when they discussed his own father and his fears of being like him. I thought that was a really great way of making lemonade out of lemons.

I could actually care less about the impending doom filled threat as it all feels extremely familiar after having watched four seasons of Discovery and two seasons of Picard…and the TOS films they’re directly ripping from. And we all know that the big bad will be resolved at the end and we’ll go on our merry way to the next doom filled threat. I don’t come to Star Trek for this dystopia. I fell in love with the franchise because of the characters, and these smaller, well-acted and well-written character driven moments are what I was sorely missing from Picard in general, and really appreciate seeing return.

More of this please.

*I couldn’t actually care less I mean….I alway wince when I see people make that mistake and here I am 😂

Agreed with everything you said although I loved the first episode. But this episode really showed what so many people were talking about that we were getting an amazing season. I thought the first two episodes were setting things up well but that was the problem, it was too much set up, especially in episode 2. But to see how it all came together was definitely worth the wait.

And deciding to bring back the TNG cast clearly showed why not only why so many fans love this cast but why it was easily the better plan to have them in this season. Let’s be honest, I had no problems with Picard being with and developing new relationships with people like Laris, Elnor, Rios, etc, but seeing the dynamics and relationships with Crusher and Riker just brings weight that you can never have with new characters. The moments with him and Riker in Ten Forward at the start of the episode and how it ended with them at the end on the Titan just feels more emotional and heightened because we have literally known those characters as long as they known each other.

And yes there is always a threat lol. They will take care of business until the next one shows up. But I am happy its the Changelings because outside of the Borg, they were obviously the most challenging the Federation had to deal with to the point they were fighting alongside with the Romulans, their previous biggest enemy to stop them. So I’m really excited to see where this goes. It may not lead to another war but I have a feeling it’s not just to end with the Founders going back to the Gamma Quadrant with their tails tucked in. Matalas already said this season is a huge game changer to the galaxy by the end of the season and now I’m starting to believe it.

You’re so right about the weight that is automatically brought to the scenes involving the legacy characters because of their long history, it’s an excellent point. It’s definitely the aspect I’m most enjoying this season. This is the kind of “fan service” that I can get behind!

And true about the threat – at least it’s creative and exciting! During the more tense scenes on the bridge with evading the Shrike etc. my mind kept going back to those more intimate scenes; Beverly’s motivation, Riker and Jack’s conversation etc. – so I think just as plot point I’m not really invested in the threat. And I just think that boils down to having seen so many similar scenarios before – I’m kind of apathetic to it. But that’s not to say that it isn’t being done well and doesn’t look great, because it does. And I’m looking forward to hopefully being surprised by some of the revelations because of the opportunities the Changelings bring as villains.

Good point about what Matalas said too. To be honest, I was mis-remembering what he had said and assumed that what he was talking about was the revelation that Picard had a son as the “game changer”, but you could be correct and if so I can’t wait to see how this unfolds if it does have implications for every show going forward.

I wish Worf had squeezed into his intro “Husband of Jadzi Dax “.
Crusher your a -itch ,he had a right to know .
Kirk knew and stayed away because that was what Carol wanted .
Picard deserved that at least .

“Crusher your [sic] a -itch ,he had a right to know.”

Hey, whoa.

How can you not agree though? Was a terrible, if understandable, thing to do.

It’s still no reason to call her that though

I freaking loved it!!!!!!!!!

This was an amazing episode in so many ways. So much heart, drama, humor, mystery, pulse pounding action and yes the huge reveal that THE CHANGELINGS ARE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, that reveal alone literally made me yell out when I saw it. Yes it’s been a theory from the get go and we all knew the story line had a big connection to the Dominion War; so I was always prepared it would be them, but it’s still shocking it’s actually them lol. Now that we know, I’m even more excited about the season than I was when it started and I was already excited.

There was just a lot of cool stuff that happened here starting with the tie in of Riker being a first time dad to Beverly and Picard fight over why she never told him about Jack. I thought that was some amazing acting between McFadden and Stewart and a reminder all the times they bumped heads on the show and this time it was (very) personal. I still don’t love the idea but I am liking how they are handling it and no weird cloning or DNA manipulation foolery I seen theories about, just a natural relationship between them.

But man, so much to love. Every time Worf opened his mouth, I laughed…hard! Dorn has not lost a step with this character at all (‘This is casual wear’). The reference to Odo was amazing. And I think Raffi and Worf will be a lot of fun to watch. Shaw was great once again with some fun lines, but had little screen time this episode but just happy he survived. The battle scenes in the nebula between the Titan and the Shrike was done so well but with a crazy twist with the portal weapon. Ships facing each other in a nebula has become a trope onto itself as we also saw done last season on SNW. But this had a great twist to it. And wow to see Picard and Riker butting heads over tactics was heartbreaking but done so well. How the episode was left off felt like the ending of Azati Prime after the NX-01 was pummeled by the Xindi and all hope felt lost after that.

But knowing all of this is due to the Founders is just incredible. This felt like Star Trek I haven’t felt in decades. And the fact everyone says it only gets better after episode 3 has this fanboy giddy. This is shaping up to the best season of Star Trek since season four of Enterprise so far. Matalas really gets it and I’m excited where it’s all going.

This is shaping up to the best season of Star Trek since season four of Enterprise so far.

It’s the Prodigy erasure for me.

Lol, no joking. 😂

Agreed abut the acting during the Pic/Bev scene. I loved this episode because there were so many of these small, character-driven scenes like this one and the one with Picard and Riker in the bar.
It’s just lovely to get to spend time with these characters having real and nuanced conversations beyond whatever threat is looming upon them. Even the one with Raffi and Worf. It was obviously funny, but it was also a nice break to give both of these characters moments to shine.

I agree too about there being no cloning shenanigans involved, a relief! I think as a decision I was never really invested with the concept of the secret son thing; we’ve been there, done that and got the Tshirt. But the more the season goes on the less I care because there are other things happening. But I will say it gives Stewart some meaty stuff to work with. I think his acting has been the better because of it, a step up from the previous two seasons for me.

I think having changelings as a villain is such a smart move because there is so many opportunities for surprises and misdirection because they can be anyone. It’s very exciting and I can’t wait to see how this unfolds. Loved the reference to Odo and I’m crossing my fingers for an appearance from Garak! Hey…I can dream!

Yeah I think having the changelings back was perfect stunt casting. You can do SO much with them that you can’t do with the Borg or the Romulans. The Founders has always been one of my favorite villains because they were so well developed but still mysterious at the same time. When you have a species that can literally be anyone and have (or had ;)) an empire the size of the Romulans and Klingons combined they are a force you can’t take lightly and exactly why the war went on as long as it did. I think we’re going to be in for a ride. And I’m happy they revealed them in episode 3 and not episode 7 or something. Now they can really play with them.

And as I said, I still wish they stayed away from the son thing, but I am glad it’s not being treated like a melodrama and no ridiculous science technobabble direction. So hopefully it will be interesting. I’m trusting Matalas totally at this point.

And lastly, yes Stewart really feels like Picard this season. It is a little sad he doesn’t have that stern, commanding voice anymore, but he feels like Picard again. He’ll never be the one we started with when TNG premiered, but at least he’s acting like a captain again. I’m actually a little shocked they didn’t have him just take command of the Titan, but I guess that would feel like a leap since he’s (technically?) retired.

Oh and we’re seeing someone big next week according to all the early reviews! It may not be Garak, but it is definitely a new legacy character who hasn’t shown yet and I don’t think any of the main TNG players. So you never know? Either way I can’t wait now!

Yes! Great point about the revelation happening so soon and not being prolonged out until the end of the season! I hadn’t even thought about that to be honest, but I’m thankful for it, it gives room for more twists and turns to happen going forward.

And agreed about Picard too. He does feel like more of the character we knew from TNG and less of a departure as portrayed in the first two seasons. I don’t mind that his voice seems more frail than before, it’s just the effects of age. Sometimes I think it actually gives his performance more nuance; particularly in that scene where he is talking to Jack in the brig from episode 2. There was one line, “but to harbour you risks the lives of everyone aboard this ship, including hers”, where his voice broke during the sentence that I thought was really effective as it could also be read that he was, in that moment, taken over by emotion being face to face with his son, although denying it to himself.

And for next week….very excited to see who this mystery character could be! And how they include the next member of the legacy cast, which I assume will be La Forge?

Could not agree with you more! Such a great episode. On an night when we learned Discovery is done after S5, this episode overshadows that announcement.

Worf and Raffi are good partners, Dorn must be really happy with his character’s story.

Wow, the Founders are back! They are the real villains for S3! I did not see that one coming, but what a tribute to DS9. So sad Rene Auberjonois did not live to see this or reprise his role as Odo.

Man, cant wait for E4!

Glad you loved it too DeanH! :)

These are the episodes that remind you why you been a fan for all these decades. It wasn’t perfect, but it was close enough. Everyone was in sync in this episode. Even if we didn’t learn about the Founders in this one, it still would’ve been a great episode, but that made it even better lol.

I was really hoping it was the Changelings but I didn’t want to get my hopes up over something that wasn’t going to happen. I’ve already done that too many times to count with these shows lol. But now that they are back, man, this season feels like it’s going to be insane now. I’m sooooo glad as well it wasn’t another uber-villain for revenge plot, although the Founders are definitely uber-villains lol, but in a good way. ;)

Yeah too bad about Discovery. I know we’ere going to hear a lot more about it, but those are the breaks.

I really enjoyed Raffi in this episode, possibly for the first time ever. Obviously the inclusion of Worf helped a lot. They have great onscreen chemistry already and I am excited to see how the dynamic evolves.

It’s an interesting pairing because it made me realise that when you boil Raffi’s character down to her most distinguishing traits; temperamental, combative, loyal…she’s basically a Klingon with an addiction problem lol.

Having her team up with Worf as a kind of mentor makes sense, as he says in his episode “I was once like her” etc. It creates really interesting possibilities for Raffi’s development because a large part of their interaction already centres around her “irrational, violent….warrior” ways of being, and from this relationship, hopefully, it may lead to a more three-dimensional and nuanced character worthy of Hurd’s talents.

This is one of the most brilliant creative choices of this season.

Raffi was made to be whiny and fragile, through both seasons. It took Worf’s perspective to see her struggle as valiance instead of compulsion.

I hope this pairing will continue.

I really questioned how they would explain Beverly’s motivation. And they did it really, really, well. I totally bought into why she did it, and yet it still doesn’t justify it. It explains perfectly why she broke up with the whole group too… if she ever got around Deanna, then the story would be out. I think we know someone is going to die in the end, and now we know who that is, and it’s Beverly. It’s the only way she redeems herself is via sacrifice which causes Jack and JLP to forge a relationship in that loss.

I think that Riker correctly shot down JLP, the only part is Riker blaming Picard, as it wasn’t Picard who killed them, it’s Riker, he gave the order. I would have preferred that Riker ordered Picard off the bridge and reinstate Seven, and the two of them come to the conclusion to fire.

So all the talk of the Nebula having a biological, is that what is saving them at the end of the teaser? Is this Nebula tied possibly to M’Benga’s daughter?

Captain Riker is far less jazzier on the bridge of the Titan than we were previously led to believe.

And is there any chance Vadic’s clicking minions are Breen, ret-conned to look less glaringly like Leia disguised as a bounty hunter?

I finally saw some clips of this Episode. Especial the Fight. In the Near end, when they are drifting into the gravity well, i bet Riker with use some sort of “Surfing on some Shockwave Explosion” to get them out. The outcome could explain the “All Ships Systems on Critical!” Picture we last saw. Also i bet with all Condition Red and the Ship’s bleeding, boarding is around the corner now

Okay, i admit i have some flaws in my Speculation, but i cut my it short for not violate the not “Future Spoilers” corner here. Sorry and i hope it is okay so far

Also this “Shoot an Torpedo and then hit it with a Laser to Explode it in their face!” reminds me a bit of some Special Gun from Unreal Tournament, right? :)

Actually it made me think somebody on staff read James Blish’ SPOCK MUST DIE! (that’s die, not diet.) Kirk has scotty do some fancy stuff with tractor beams and mines so that every field collapses just as the mine reaches a Klingon ship and thus takes it out completely. I should see if I can find that book again – at 120 pages, it read insanely fast, and while somewhat off-character at times, it was still tons of fun, must have gone through it 40 times last century. First book I ever read the word ‘depradation’ in, that’s my biggest takeaway, outside of all the ‘transporter use is murder’ philosophizing.

I found myself whooping and hollering through out the battle scene. It was glorious. Best Pic episode ever! I was on my feet saying, “holy **** holy **** Did you see that?”

The writers did an amazing job with Beverly and Jean-Luc. It was a plausible and realistic reason to keep him away from Jack. Best Beverly Performance Ever!

Amazing Episode! I’m siding with Team Riker!

Hey P+ let Frakes run the franchise!

I fear it’s to much pressure on Frakes, at last they should try to split it on more Shoulders. Because if he would run it alone, he could run into danger to become an Jack of all trades and lose his Bite

Terry Matalas is the one who did all of this. Frakes just directed and acted. Terry Trek is a thing now.

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This is where season 2 crashed and burned for me. I am loving this, it all makes sense and works. Love that the founders are back. Great job, even if the rest of it sucks, what we’ve gotten so far is just fantastic.

Great episode and the cliffhanger is why binging is not always the best way to enjoy TV. Great action, drama and humor. The return of the Founders is a nice touch. Michael Freakin’ Dorn. Did anyone think in 1987 that Worf would be the Trek character with the most appearances and be this bad ass? I’m anxious to see Worf reunite with the TNG cast but he is the best choice to carry the B story. Even slimmed down, Dorn makes Worf an imposing figure. Guessing it’s Worf who ends up engaging Geordi but I suspect our next familiar face with be Lore. I confess I am interested to see who is behind all of this. The real villain of season 3 has yet to real himself/herself.

Another great episode!

I was pleased with how they handled the Picard and Beverly scene. I was worried it would really make her look bad, but her reasons were mostly valid. I guess Wesley isn’t popping in to visit her much, if at all, so I can understand that she would be extra protective of Jack. But I can’t imagine having him along with her doing the doctors without borders thing, in potentially hazardous places, would be very safe either.

So, it seems some changes have been made to the changelings. The ones I remember from DS9 were much more… agile and liked to attack people with quick tendrils. These new changelings don’t seem to be as skilled with changing their shapes on the fly since the one Worf and Raffi were interrogating didn’t just liquify himself out of his handcuffs and quickly ooze into one of the ship’s vents. Not a big deal for me, but still a noticeable change to what has been established about them.

The battle scene was again great, but I cringed hard when Riker told Picard to remove himself from the bridge. I think Riker’s hesitation is what made the attack on the Shrike fail. Also giving the order to fire after knowing about the portal weapon, was on Riker. Not Picard. But why even torpedoes? Phasers not working?

I smiled seeing that Seven had a model of Voyager in her quarters and then again when LaForge called her Commander Seven. Stuff like that really makes me want a live action follow-up for Voyager.

So far, I have liked every episode this season. Looking forward to next week!

Worth keeping in mind about Changelings that a lot of their look and behavior was simply dictated by FX limitations. Those tendrils were easier to animate, they were quick and simple.

As for why the changeling didn’t liquify quickly, he wasn’t hoping to just get away, he wanted to get away without them knowing he was a changeling.

Re: Seven/LaForge, I noted this a week ago about Shaw’s refusal to call her Seven, I think this is a pretty clear allegory about deadnaming and gender identity. Seven is the identity she has chosen, and those who respect her will call her by her desired name. I noticed on YouTube after this episode, other people are finally starting to pick up on that.