Podcast: All Access Welcomes An Old Friend On ‘Star Trek: Picard’ And Thanks The Academy

All Access Star Trek podcast episode 132 - TrekMovie

[Picard episode review starts at 17:58]

Anthony and Laurie celebrate Michelle Yeoh’s Best Actress win at the Oscars and speculate about what this might mean for the future of the Section 31 show. They discuss Chris Pine’s enthusiasm for more Star Trek movies, Tony’s interview with Strange New Worlds‘ Celia Rose Gooding and Melissa Navia, the launch of a new comic series from IDW, and the latest from the Star Trek: Picard production team on villains, sets, and technology (including Odo’s bucket). Then they review “Imposters,” the newest episode of Picard, particularly enjoying Ro Laren’s return to the franchise. They wrap up with a look at a new blog covering legal issues in Star Trek (beginning with the ever-controversial “Tuvix”) and a friendly group of Star Trek fans and professionals on Facebook worth joining.


Michelle Yeoh Wins Academy Award For Best Actress, Nichelle Nichols Remembered

Chris Pine Wants To Return For ‘Star Trek 4’… And “Many More”

Interview: Celia Rose Gooding & Melissa Navia On Going Boldly In ‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’ Season 2

Watch Exclusive Special Feature Clip From ‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’ Season One Blu-ray/DVD

See Worf Kick Off A New Series With Spock And A New Crew In Preview Of ‘Star Trek: Defiant’ #1

See The USS Resolute Take Drastic Measures In Preview Of ‘Star Trek: Resurgence’ #5

See Sisko Battle Kahless In Preview Of ‘Star Trek’ #5

‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 3 Showrunner Confirms Details About The Season Villains

Construction History Of USS Titan And More ‘Star Trek: Picard’ Behind The Scenes Details Revealed

‘Star Trek: Picard’ Theory Analysis: Who Is Vadic Working For?

Kirk Acevedo (Krinn)


Tony: Starfleet JAG: Is Janeway a murderer?

Laurie: Star Trek Family on Facebook

Let us know what you think of the episode in the comments, and should you be so inclined, please review us on Apple.

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I agreed with Laurie about the lack of women talking to other women on this season. Season 1 sort of had the same problem. 2 was better I’m with the Raffi-Seven and Juratti-Borg Queen duos, but it was a bad season. Season 3 is really good, maybe the best Star Trek since DS9, but it still hasn’t passed the Bechdel Test yet! What gives?

I mean, Ro could have talked to Dr. Crusher, or something. But other than that, great show. And good podcast.

I’d rather a well written show without having to force whatever made up “test” people decide things have to have. Let it happen naturally.

Yes. I, too, would rather have well-written shows than force characters into a narrative.

It’s not that kind of a test, lol. From Merriam-Webster:

The usual criteria of the Bechdel Test are (1) that at least two women are featured, (2) that these women talk to each other, and (3) that they discuss something other than a man.

That IS better writing.

I think the only scene that qualifies is when LaForge talks to Seven, but it’s ever so brief. Yet, it is meaningful, and speaks to why that sort of thing is important.

To Laurie’s point, applying the Bechdel creates questions and opens up missing optics we didn’t consider before.

Since “Picard” as a series has always stood in judgement of the hero, wouldn’t it have been interesting if we saw saw a lot of this season’s story through Beverly’s POV? Or Beverly and Laris?

And why is this POV missing? Why isn’t she asking more questions, why isn’t she directly trying to insert herself more into this story?

After this episode, I do think Beverly will have more narrative agency — but will it only be in service of Picard’s growth?

I do think that having Picard as the title character, especially in this time of writers’ over-indoctrination in the dubious merits of the ‘hero’s journey’, really force fits all the other characters’ arcs into his.

One of my hopes for a more ensemble-built Star Trek: Titan series, led by Shaw and Seven, is that some of the other legacy characters can be featured over future seasons in a way that serves them and not just Picard’s own journey.

Yup. Interrogating the Hero’s Journey is the future and, I think, much of the present, of screenplay writing.

Expecting the counterswing to hit sometime soon.

No spoilers, but I watched the next episode and I’m happy to report that women talk to each other in this one. Hooray!

SPOILERS, LAURIE! But still, it’s quite marginal.

Thanks Laurie. Good to be reassured that’s coming.

I’m seeing that this situation really shows how crucial it is to balance the main cast ensemble.

In Voyager, with Janeway, B’Elanna and Seven, it just happened organically. They were often solving problems about things together rather than people.

Even in DS9, with Kira and Dax naturally brought together by their jobs, women were talking about work with one another in a context that drove the plot forward.

TNG, with its female characters in caring roles struggled. Their roles naturally made them talk about the male characters in the ensemble even when they were talking about work.

This season of Picard, Seven and Raffi are the only female main cast characters, and they’ve been physically separated for half the season.

Crusher has had no interaction with Seven, but they could have made it happen. They could have even set up Ohk as a key Changeling infiltrator, but if she never says anything then any revelation of that kind would seem unearned.

Instead, Crusher’s treatment of Dr Ohk is disrespectful. It’s occurred to me that Beverly is as much the ‘bad/arrogant visiting scientist’ as Picard is a ‘badmiral.’

Thinking of all the times in TNG and TOS, even DS9 and Voyager, that another physician has come in and been given access to sickbay’s resources, we’ve definitely seen the difficult or bad physician-scientist trope across the entire franchise.

Yes, Ohk was territorial in a crisis, but I can’t imagine McCoy, Bashir, the Doctor, or Crusher herself at her most tactful, standing mutely while a visiting physician took over their sickbay and lectured them. They’d support but they’d also keep a keen I out, and often be the one who saves the day in the end.

I didn’t see Ohk that way. In fact, the first time we see her, she’s rudely dismissive of Dr. Crusher due to her age.

Have found it odd that Beverly is mainly monologing in Sickbay.

For the autopsy, that can be typical, but Dr Ohk and LaForge are standing there silently most of the time. It could have been more interactive. When think of Voyager, Janeway and Torres or Seven-Torres or Seven-Janeway working a problem together was great.

Instead, it’s as though Crusher isn’t strong enough to show her ‘science-ing’ while working with other women. She just lectures.

Then, when she’s with Picard, Jack and Riker she gets over talked and re-splained as though her points aren’t strong enough when she speaks herself.

I would say Crusher monologuing in Sickbay is pretty consistent with TNG, I’m sure this is no accident.

It’s not her sickbay.

I think it’s fair enough to reason that at some point, Ohk began deferring to Crusher’s obviously superior skill and vast experience.

We didn’t see it happen in dialogue on screen but it was demonstrated without a clear line of demarcation. As the crisis escalated, Crusher showed her usefulness and her superiority, and Ohk wisely deferred, as any good Doctor would, regardless of military protocol. After all, it’s about saving lives in Sickbay, not following orders.

All that said, you are right: I will agree that for the sake of having more women characters, they probably wasted an opportunity there to give Ohk something meaningful, and a bonding moment with Crusher. There could have been a conversation at some point where Ohk apologized for her earlier dismissiveness, and the two could have then begun working more as equals.

It didn’t even need to be that specific… it could have been the two of them figuring out some science-y medical stuff together.

Sure, but just talking science-y medical stuff is merely rote, and does little for the characters beyond giving them an excuse to talk to each other.

The example I cited flows from natural narrative elements already in play and allows for both characters to do more than just talk to each other, but grow as characters. And isn’t that what we want out of them, something compelling that is more than just token interaction?

Star Trek at it’s best is great stories, not soap opera conversations.

Wow, way to show unconscious assumptions there Anthony Thompson!

Women talking together = soap opera – in your view?

Perhaps that’s not what you meant but that’s how it comes across.

(My ‘parent of teens radar’ is kicking in here. I can’t believe how much teen boys are picking up assumptions and a negative lens about women talking on television or movies. It startles me when I hear it.

Of course, some older guys have these attitudes and are saying them on YouTube, but when I hear it from our kids or their peers it’s another level of problem, and my spouse and I are left having to counter it.)

The Bechdel test actually is way to avoid having women characters reduced to ‘soap opera conversations’ where they are fretting or angsty about the men in their lives.

Voyager had women in leadership and scientific engineering roles on the ship. So, the women interacted a lot together without soapy melodramatic moments being needed.

What the Bechdel Test doesn’t do however is point out or address how male characters get a pass or are lauded for emotional conversations such as Picard has had with Riker, Crusher, Jack, and Ro, but when two women have an emotional conversation, it’s ‘too much.’

Well said. It’s sad when people can’t handle women on-screen, as if it’s a challenge their fragile male ego, and perceived superiority.

Worse still? When a woman on-screen isn’t the ideal picturesque beauty standards, they can’t accept them, because there’s nothing for them to look at. As great a character as Seven is, I wonder how she’d have been viewed if played by someone who wasn’t 5’10” in heels, thin, blonde, and busty (no offense to Jeri Ryan who has always slayed the role)

For me, Riker and Picard have always been an uncomfortable fit together, and yet those scenes still keep getting written. I honestly liked how they weren’t alike (loved how he addressed his relationship with Riker when talking to the woman in CAPTAIN’S HOLIDAY) and was surprised when they tried to build on something that was clearly mostly just a professional relationship.

I honestly can’t even remember a Crusher/Ro scene from TNG, though there must have been a few. There was that framing stuff with Whoopi and Gates that was added for the Ferengi murder mystery ep, but it took me five minutes just to remember that existed, as I have never seen it even a second time, but that was all expositional. I think a lot of this goes back to why Leslie Crusher became Wesley Crusher — there was nobody on staff who could writer a teenage girl (and as it turned out, they often wrote Wes as a 9 year-old rather than an adolescent.)

A different perspective, or a pair of perspectives, on Picard himself for this series, one that comes from the distaff side would have been welcome, especially if it didn’t manifest strictly as hero worship. Perhaps when they spinoff the TNG ep PARALLELS into a weekly series, we’ll eventually see it. (a sci fi version of an anthology trek — where you see the same story told with alt-versions of self and all the myriad differences — it could sustain a season on each story, if you picked the right story, that is.)

Awesome podcast. I totally connected with everything you both had two say about this week’s episode of Picard! Both the positive and otherwise interesting choices. That doesn’t happen often haha. So I really didn’t have any notes or reactions.

Regarding next week (I know you guys can’t respond to it): I believe both Lore (as the Daystrom AI) AND Geordi will be on next week’s episode. For one, Geordi is the one who identifies him for the first time (from the trailer: “Lore!”) And second: LeVar is going to be on the next Ready Room, with his daughter.

And of course Moriarty will be in it as the one to beat (and give access to) Lore.

Glad you agreed, although not a requirement. And all your suppositions are plausible. It does appear some combo of Lore, Moriarty and Geordi are coming. I actually still don’t know but I will find out today when I watch it for review/pod prep.

Lucky you! Have fun.

One thing I just noticed: On La Sienna, Worf pulls up the file on Krenn. You can freeze the image. There is no image of Krenn. “Where he was born” is blank – but it does say “escaped from jail.” Is that a mistake?

It becomes hard to believe no one in Starfleet intelligence knew that there was a gang of Vulcans on M’Talas, unless Changelings deleted the info and eliminated anyone who somehow knew.

Was there was a mystery the writers were trying to develop? If so, there was very little mysterious about him or that gang in this episode. It wish they were running a hacking operation to overturn elections – a believable and deliciously absurd Vulcan crime, and perhaps related to why they could get into Daystrom.

I mean, who wouldn’t want Worf to have Krenn as a hostage during their next trip?

Loved the podcast.

Is the AI defending Daystom Holo Mariarti?

I rolled my eyes at Kirk Acevedo showing up. Not because he isn´t good, he is. More about what he was saying about him and Sneed. They were brothers, they were scavengers. I enjoyed 12 monkeys but this was too much wink wink nudge nudge at that audience and unnecessary for this show.

Just because the show is called Picard, that is no excuse to not have good scenes between the women characters, I have no hopes of the issue for the female characters to improve. If they haven´t gotten it right yet, they probably won´t.
When Laurie mentioned a quote from Ron Moore I was reminded of something Tawny Newsome said. It was on the Pod Directive in its first season and she mentioned how easy it would have been for them to have the character of Raffi be this old white dude friend of Picards but they switched it up!

I´ve watched the episode twice now and am pretty sure the voice Jack is hearing is Beverly. Maybe it´s a dormant memory?

Thanks for the feedback. The TrekMovie review did note how the captions identified the voice as Beverly. The podcast was recorded before the official episode release and we don’t get closed captions with screeners, a constant frustration.

I never have the captions on during first viewing for fear of spoilers. Terry Matalas confirmed it was Beverly on twitter.
Also I…don´t read your reviews *scurries away to hide*

Well at least we got you listening, so no worries.

The most frustrating part of the screeners is that without subtitles, it’s hard to know how to spell new characters’ names. Tallinn last season gave me fits (I wasn’t even sure if it was Tallin with an “N” or an “M”).

I agree with the bit about the women characters. I noticed it immediately in the scene with the doctors where the Titan doctor literally had no lines! It’s kinda weird since this episode was co-written by a female writer.

And yes, I eye-rolled too. Same reason. The episode would’ve been equally great without that whole storyline. It could have actually prevented the M’Talas storyline from becoming an overstay. But I think that besides the Ro storyline, the episode was light on script as it was. Probably why the elevator scene was put in as well.

Yes Emily, “dormant memory” makes a lot of sense. Beverly remarked on Jack having terrible nightmares as a child. Perhaps he is recalling her calling him back when dreams of the opening “red door” beckoned him as a child. 

I like Michelle Yeoh but a section 31 probably wouldn’t last long. It’s been in development hell for years. If anything, just write a section 31 centric episode for SNW and have her guest star.

Given that she’s now pals with Carl (aka the Guardian of Forever), she could show up on pretty much ALL the shows!

I’m hoping this is the direction they choose to take her character.

Laurie, thinking of the potential of both access to Carl the GoF and the monastery on Boreth, I floated the idea of a kind of all-star time-travelling mission impossible S31 show on the thread about Yeoh.

With the popular of spy thrillers and action-adventures on streaming, my sense is that this show is at its peak potential, beyond Yeoh’s greater profile.

I still think it would be a great way to bring together legacy characters across the eras, and create something that would appeal to fans across the franchise and eras.

They could hop from the 22nd to the 25th century protecting the Federation and the Prime timeline.

Georgiou + Ash/Tyler + Worf + Raffi + Bashir + Miral Paris

All of these have intelligence or time-travelling / Boreth monastery connections.

They’d probably need to add one or two more original characters to balance the ensemble. Perhaps more women or Asian characters.

Other possibilities are of course Garak and Malcolm Reed, but they might be recurring.

Admiral Janeway could be their connection to the top of Starfleet Command, and Archer could play a pivotal recurring role as well.

I’m not trying to be a downer here, just trying be realistic when I say:

The Section 31 show will never happen. There’s just not enough interest amongst fans or the general population. The current Trek shows are niche enough as it is. There is still a good segment of the core Trek audience which never tuned into Disco, SNW or Picard. So I think a show based on a concept as nebulous as “Section 31” would never register with the masses. And Paramount probably knows this.

Except that Michelle Yeoh’s star power now has the potential to bring all kinds of new people into the franchise… which Paramount really wants.

Traditional sci-fi/space opera has always had a limited demographic appeal. Michelle Yeoh is awesome, and I would love to see her back, but I recognize the fact that Star Trek will always be a niche show. That’s not a bad thing, just a reality that Paramount has be accept and make their plans around. Modern Trek will never see Game of Thrones level of viewership, and that’s okay. There’s still probably a couple million people that will watch Trek each week, but not ever 25 million, no matter who starred in it.

People used to say that about high fantasy on television.

I remember sitting in the theater as the first LOTR movie started its opening narration, and cringing, wondering if the wider audience would accept it, it was SO fantasy nerdy… and yet now Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, are some of the biggest franchises of all time.

While I don’t think Trek may ever be that big, Yeoh’s presence could bring that cross over appeal it needs to begin that ascent.

I think your underselling it…that’s a bit too much of “20th century thinking” for me to buy into. And it’s also a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, because with all of the streaming options today, a new show like GoT being release TODAY is probably never to reach the numbers that GoT got back in the day when most of us still used satellite and cable.

Michelle Yeoh may have won the oscar, but she’s not widespread popular or known. The movie she won the oscar for has come in at a measly 37th for the 2022 global box office.

But it has also been one of the top 3 movies on streaming for 2023, and was in the top 5 for 2022.

I think what we might see is some Trek content that is less cinematic and more TV oriented, at least I think Paramount should look in this direction. Procedurals are less expensive, for example, and I don’t think Trek has done this (Department of Temporal Investigations anyone?).

The Berman era of Trek, especially DS9, showed that compelling characters that are well written and well inhabited by good actors can be engaging without being done on a “Picard” level of budget.

I honestly believe that for Trek to survive, it needs more CBS and less Paramount. Star Trek has always been better TV than cinema, and although there are good shows today, they are very expensive. What Trek needs is more episodes per season on a smaller budget. The AR wall is cool, but that just won’t beat a series with compelling characters that we (and the actors) grow to care about over 13-15 episodes/year.

Nah, adjusting for inflation, the cost of a season of TNG in 1987 is roughly equivalent to a season of Picard in 2023.

Not even close. According to the info I see, TNG was $1.3M, which equates to less than $3.5M today. Picard is more than double that. If you’ve got different data, feel free to share.

I’m talking about cost of a full season to a full season — and my comment is accurate.

Ok, fair enough, if we go by full seasons…but what’s your point? Your retort to him doesn’t seem to jibe with what he is suggesting. What does it matter what the budget of TNG was for a year back then?

In fact, doesn’t that kind of prove his point? That you could spend the same amount of money making more episodes, by spending less per episode?

I think both avenues have validity, though I don’t believe mass audiences would support a relatively low budget Trek show these days.

Yea, but I don’t think the option of a network or syndicated TV series with 24 eps for Trek is in the cards anymore, and for the streaming environment, there are more expectations for a show like Trek given there are only 10 eps per season. So, although I agree with your point theoretically, I think we are stuck with an apples to oranges comparison and that for the 24 much cheaper per ep type of Trek TV series — well, that ship has sailed, and I doubt it’s ever coming back.

So your point and his point are kind of moot, although theoretically, the point still makes sense.

ST tv has never done well on a network, at its most successful in syndication in the 90s

I’ve been whistling into the wind with this observation for a few years now, but I still contend that a Michelle Yeoh fronted Section 31 show isn’t intended for the North American market. Ms. Yeoh has huge name recognition value in the international market, which would translate into an immediate audience for the show. At some level, I suspect Paramount knows this, but for whatever reason can’t quite seem to execute on the concept.

Exactly! It’s targeted for the international market! It would be a market-expander series like Prodigy and DSC, not a market maintenance series like say Picard or LDS.

LOL, sure, and let me guess, you also want me to invest in your new Camp Lejeune Mineral Water venture. ;-)

Yeoh is an international star who would SIGNIFICANTLY expand Trek’s market if she is given a series to lead. You are way, way off here, dude.

Any chance they somehow fit Yeoh (Georgiou) into the S5 reshoots? Via a partial reset button, like having the ship go somewhere to where her character is?🤷🏼‍♂️

Thanks for another excellent podcast.

Side note, Laurie, you have a great laugh. Does ha-ha need a hyphen? ;-)

Ha! No it does not. Ha ha is fine. Thank you for supporting my important work in hyphenation.

Speaking of dead, let’s talk about Trek 14…..

That made my day.

Do you fell lucky today? Well do you?

And remember, a man’s got to know his limitations.

R.I.P. all the “Space Hitler” immature name-calling. That tired and grossly inaccurate middle school-level insult’s day has past — stick a fork in it!

This just occurred to me…..a lot of the folks who couldn’t get past a woman in a strong role, IE, “Space Hitler”, also tend to speak glowingly of Ricardo Montalban’s Khan…..particulary so in WOK, the original Space Hitler, was actually pretty inept. I know it’s sacrilege to speak poorly of WOK. It worked for the reasons it did, but strong writing and character development weren’t among them.

I think fans would have felt the same about Khan had Kirk invited him to be a member of the crew to enjoy brunches with them after Khan tried to steal Kirk’s ship and murder him.

I don’t think it has much to do about the gender of the villain. I think it has more to do with how much people are willing to accept the belief that anyone, no matter how vile they have been in the past, is redeemable.

This is where I land too. I do think you CAN redeem someone vile, but Discovery did most of that offscreen and we were just supposed to assume it happened. That was my biggest issue. I would’ve been okay with it except for the final scene in her last episode when the crew suddenly talked about her as if she’d changed, and while she did finally shift during her Guardian/alt-history experience, the rest of the crew wasn’t with her to see it. I would’ve expected most of them to be glad she was finally off the ship rather than speaking of her with reluctant affection.

I agree Laurie. I wasn’t happy with.how she left the Discovery. I would have loved to see her redemption throughout the series. I wanted to see it and feel it over time.

I thought her send-off from Discovery was weird also.

But no more or less weird than any number of short-circuited, unearned sudden conclusions to characters arcs in Discovery. I take it as a pervasive problem with the show and nothing specific to Georgiou.

Rather it says more about the Discovery main cast characters who seem to have earnest and intensely emotional goodbyes to conclude any number of relationships that we have never been given insight into.

In Georgiou’s case, at least WE got to see how deeply challenging and transformative was her return to the MU Terran Empire. That was the crucial part for us to know that she was able to accept that the values and culture of her society of origin were ultimately self-destructive and that the Federation way was superior.

I have been hoping that the S31 show would reveal a continuing progression for Georgiou. Redemption like recovery from addiction isn’t a once and for all achievement.

In Georgiou’s case, at least WE got to see how deeply challenging and transformative was her return to the MU Terran Empire. That was the crucial part for us to know that she was able to accept that the values and culture of her society of origin were ultimately self-destructive and that the Federation way was superior.

Exactly. As I alluded to in another post here — Georgiou is like say emperor number X in a long line of emperors in an already established evil world, whereas Hitler created his evil world himself, an so the redemption of Georgiou is certainly more plausible than Hitler ever being redeemed. She sort of “didn’t know any better” until the Prime characters arrived and she saw a different way.

That’s a great point! I didn’t think of it that way.

I don’t disagree that the presentation of this was lacking. However, I would note that Georgiou was raised in a system that was vile, and as such, she was not responsible for creating the vile system. This is in contrast to Khan, who created his vile group himself — Khan created the evil. So Khan is much worse morally than Georgiou. Georgiou is like say emperor #11 in an already established evil world, whereas Khan created the evil world himself. And this also illustrates why the labeling of Georgiou by some as “Space Hitler” is simply historically ignorant, and simpleton-like.

Based on all this, the redemption of Georgiou is certainly more plausible than Khan or Hitler ever being redeemed. She sort of “didn’t know any better” until the Prime characters arrived.

Okay but Khan didn’t all by himself. Yes he played a role in it but did you miss the implications that he was created by awful evil people himself? Which is not to say he wasn’t responsible because yes he was. Absolutely.

Good point — OK, there is more of a grey area for Khan than Hitler in regards to my overall point.

For what it’s worth though, I do absolutely agree that it’s a double standard there in regards to her. I’ve noticed a lot of it on this particular site when it comes to the women characters myself, with her, with Beverly Crusher, and with Deanna Troi just for recent examples of it.

Okay here’s a better example for you of someone that created their own evil environment: the Changelings. Yes they faced xenophobia and I can completely understand how they felt about it. But the way that they chose to respond to it is entirely on them.


right, but there’s still a huge vocal part of the fandom that hated Yeoh and Georgiou just for her character and performance, from Day 1. I am not blaming it on sexism (but can’t deny that for some, it was likely part of it), but it wasn’t all about her flawed character arc.


I think fans would have felt the same about Khan had Kirk invited him to be a member of the crew to enjoy brunches with them after Khan tried to steal Kirk’s ship and murder him.

Yeah, because he’s charming. Yeoh is more of a female, kick-ass, and some fans are never going to warm up to that. Unconscious bias I believe certainly plays a role here.

It will be interesting to see how much ‘halo effect’ there may be around Georgiou but other women action-adventure heroes in the wake of Yeoh’s success in EEAAO.

In any case, after her Oscar, I expect Paramount would be counting that Yeoh in a time travelling S31 show would draw in many people from EEAAO’s audience who have no significant history watching Trek, let alone Discovery.

The trick will be building in a mix of legacy characters in her ensemble and guest stars that will draw in a cross section of Trek’s base while Yeoh is a magnet to new subscribers and expands the franchise audience.

I’m not really going to debate whether there is unconscious bias with some fans or not toward Emperor Georgiou. My apologies if my post wasn’t clearer about what I was trying to convey.

Khan was never really meant to be a fully fleshed out, multidimensional character. Not for Space Seed and not for TWOK. I think he was a really bad comparison since Emperor Georgiou was supposed to be a character with more depth and I think they did ok considering they only had so many episodes in which they could do anything with her character arc. Add to that, Burnham’s story took most of the screen time since her character is the lead.

Like Laurie said, as far as the crew of Discovery were concerned, much of her redemption arc happened away from the crew, so it was really odd how they interacted with her when she was leaving.

I also believe that the emperor can be redeemed, but she is going to need a lot more screen time showing that journey to both the audience and her fellow characters. I hope she gets that time with her own show or mini-series or movie.

But that said, I personally would have preferred and enjoyed watching Captain Georgiou over Emperor Georgiou. But that’s just my preference. I prefer heroes over villains.

Just wanted to also add that Khan was only a villain and Emperor Georgiou was more of an anti-hero during her time on Discovery. So people probably expected a little more from her than Khan.

Fair points!

I do wish Captain Georgiou had lived. Also a fascinating character, and would have been fun to have Yeoh play both.

Yeah, you point out a great double standard their, Phil. I think it has to do both with the gender you bring up (Michael never gets the benefit of the doubt to freelance like nearly ever other Trek main character in the franchise gets to do), as well as it being just another thing to bitch about from fans that have bitched, bitched and bitched more about DSC since Day 1.

You mean, just like you keep b*tching at Lower Decks every chance you get? And just like you keep b*tching at people b*tching at Discovery?

Yeah, like that!

Thank you! I’ve been saying this for years. Georgiou is basically Khan 2.0, Montalban was just as hammy, goofy, and comic book villain-like. Khan even less depth of character than Georgiou.

We’ll said

I love this podcast and listen every week. You two are really chilled out, really knowledgeable and easy to listen to.

One little gripe (lol)… I think the sound levels might be slightly off. The volume can sometimes jump up when Laurie speaks, and then drop down when Anthony responds. It makes me jump sometimes :)

Thanks for the feedback. We are always looking for ways to improve the pod.

BTW, this is your first comment so welcome. But please pick a username that is unique to you and not confused with any public figures or companies.

Glad you like the pod! I make Tony’s task of editing the podcast very difficult (unintentionally)… as I’m talking I am constantly changing raising and lowering my voice without realizing it! Poor Tony. I’m working on it.

Here is a new name suggestion: Desilu Minus !

It’s moments like this I really wish this site had a ‘like’ button!

Lol, thanks!

A few points –
On The Hot Mic this week, Jeff Sneider’s podcast, he revealed that Paramount+ is considering cancelling all live action Star Trek shows and pivoting Trek content into streaming movies/limited run mini-series. Jeff has an excellent and reliable track record when it comes to insider scoops BTW. Not sure whether Anthony has heard any rumblings regarding this.

With DSC already cancelled and PIC S3 confirmed as the last season, this only leaves SNW. Could the fact S3 of SNW hasn’t been announced or gone into production (AFAIK) be a hint that S2 could be its last conventional season? Just speculating…

A mini-series/streaming movie would be the ideal vehicle for Section 31 and securing the services of a busy Michelle Yeoh. BTW, Paramount+ wouldn’t be getting Yeoh to woo the traditional white, conservative American audience, it’s to boost Trek viewership with international audiences (P+ is international), where Trek traditionally falls short.

Preproduction of SNW season three began in greater Toronto the week Picard premiered. According to the guild notices, production is scheduled to start in early May.

While it’s possible to shut that down, season two was produced and in post before any formal announcement of greenlighting was made public.

As for the rest? It’s interesting to hear that limited series and/or direct-.to-streaming movies are under consideration.

Many of us would very much like to see those in the mix, but not at the expense of dropping all live action multi season Trek shows.

Paramount is doing better than both Disney and WBDiscovery in moderating churn and developing a mass subscriber demographic that’s more evenly distributed across genders, ages and race/ethnicity. I suspect that any decisions around that will take careful consideration of how the Trek offerings contribute to that stability and diversity.

Last thing, focusing on only limited series and movies (which hasn’t worked for Marvel) seems offside from Paramount’s ‘3 Fs’ programming approach. That is, Paramount is prioritizing ‘Franchises, Familiar Faces, and Fandoms.’

Both SNW and Picard season three are well aligned with all three strategic elements. We’ve heard the franchise dimension before but Tanya Giles (chief programming officer) is stressing the other two elements for Paramount+. It explains SNW’s surprisingly heavy focus on legacy characters, and Picard season three’s transparent efforts to woo back the alienated but vocal portion of the 90s male fanbase.

Terry Matalas is very transparently work social media to energize the fandom around a 25th century show, and is proactively pulling in fans of his 12 Monkeys fandom towards Trek. I believe we can expect more of this

Bringing that back to Yeoh and a limited series possibility, I suspect that while a few new characters appealing to global audiences would be in the ensemble, my speculation that legacy characters from other shows would be part of strengthening of the ‘familiar faces and fandom’ elements. Ash/Tyler, (South Asian), Worf, Bashir, and perhaps Raffi, Miral Paris (Latina) all could contribute to the reach of the show.

Thanks again for the podcast and I loved the discussion. I watch the episode here in the UK on the Friday evening and then read Tony’s review straight after, followed by the podcast on Saturday morning over breakfast!

Just wondering, but when the season concludes it could be pretty cool if you were to team up with the Shuttle Pod crew for a look back at the season; the highs, the lows and all points in-between plus, what should happen next regarding spin-offs. If the show keeps going the way it has across the remaining episodes (and I for one think that it’s been brilliant), then I can’t believe that this will truly be the end and that further voyages with the cast of TNG will happen.

Love the idea of teaming up with the Shuttle Pod crew at the end of the season!

Make it so……please 😀


I’ve never been a big TNG fan. I grew up on DS9/Voyager. The rest came later. TNG never resonated with me. However, the first four episodes of S3 Picard has been amazing. I want to see more Beverly. Pre-S3 I would not have said that. Terry has done a terrific job bringing out the humanity and giving these actors a real chance to be alive and show us what they can do.

Until EP 5, it has been a blast. The first four episodes were organic and didn’t feel like they were just plugging the characters in for nostalgia. It was plausible for the characters to be where they are at. I’m not a Ro Laren fan at all. So, I didn’t connect with her death. It felt like Terry took the day off and the writers started to eat the member berries. It felt forced and unnecessary for the story. It 100% took me out of the story and back to rolling my eyes like in S2. What made it worse was seeing 10 forward bar again. Geez, it is getting redundant.

The Jack mystery is being drawn out too much.

I love Kirk Acevedo. He was great in Fringe, Arrow, and Band of Brothers but once again redundant.

I do like the new take on the changelings but I fear they are going to draw out the mystery more so they can do more fan service stuff and bring closure to characters that have been long forgotten.
The same sins Discovery has been accused of.

I just felt the episode should have been deleted from the series or maybe this is where it starts to fall apart.


Totally agree with this. Worf’s handler just happens to be Ro Laren, the one comprised in some galactically significant way just happens to be Picard’s son, and I’m guessing that next week, Krinn’s hack to circumvent Daystrom Station’s security will just happen to be Professor Moriarty. I can’t wait to see what bullshit explanation they’ve come up with to justify dropping Lore into the mix. Once again the writers judgement has been compromised by their fanboyishness, and one wishes they’d hire actual professionals who can be objective to write this stuff. It’s still better than the first two seasons, and I’ll watch it all, but yeah, it feels a bit like it’s gone over a cliff with this episode and I’m not expecting season 3 to end well.

lol I don’t know why this kind of stuff bothers you. If you wanted to bring the cast back, it was either going to involve a few well-timed “just happens” situations, or the story “just happens” to kick off during a reunion dinner celebrating 20 years since their last mission.

As it stands, they’ve done a good job of justifying those coincidences, none of them seem unbelievable. Ro as a recruit of Starfleet Intelligence makes sense, Worf working with them after getting a tip from Odo makes sense, her calling on Worf because she knows and trusts him from the Enterprise (and thus can verify he isn’t a Changeling), that makes sense too. When we see how Lore and Moriarty enter the picture, it will make sense as well.

My question is, to Kevin, is if your enjoyment of the series will prompt you to give TNG another look, and perhaps make you enjoy it more?

I think it will. After the season 3 is over, I’m going to revisit and re-evaluate TNG. I’ve always loved the films but I know there is a big difference between series Picard and movie Picard. I want to see if the evolution fits.

And who knows, I might appreciate this episode more if I can connect with her story. This is my watch weekly reaction. I know binge watching Discovery helped me appreciate the story better and connect the dots better. So we’ll see.

Kevin, I’m surprised you’re not a Ro Laren fan. I loved her from her first episode; if I’d picked ONE recurring character to be on Picard, that’s who I would’ve chosen.

I hope when you revisit TNG, you find something to love about it. It’s such a wonderful show.