Star Trek: Picard Season 3, Episode 6 – Debuted Thursday, March 23, 2023
Written by Christopher Monfette
Directed by Dan Liu
It’s time to team up for some fun with an homage to a heist movie of an episode.
WARNING: Spoilers below!
“Maybe I was doomed before I was even born.”
The Titan is being hunted, using decoy transponders to keep just ahead of Starfleet and the Shrike, while Vadic takes out her frustration by vaporizing a rando bridge Changeling and throwing out lines like “The night will brighten with the ashes of the Federation and from them we will rise!” Dramatic much? In sickbay, Beverly has sorted out that Jack’s visions are a symptom of Irumodic Syndrome, a little genetic gift from dad. She has a short-term fix but the prognosis is terminal, although it’s unclear how long he has and “could be decades.” Jean-Luc finds his boy in 10 Forward (because apparently the holodeck is now stuck on this one program), celebrating that at least he isn’t going crazy. Jean-Luc tries consoling him with some trademark wisdom, but Jack only finds solace at the bottom of a whiskey glass. Things lighten up in the transporter room reunion with Mr. Worf even accepting a hug from Beverly, although things between Seven and Raffi are a bit icy. After getting up to speed on the Jack thing, Worf puts us back on task with “We must ensure Ro Laren’s death was not in vain to protect both Starfleet and your kin.” Okay buzzkill, but we still want to know what’s up with those two.
At a briefing on the Changeling threat, a ticking clock is set to 48 hours: That’s when they will make their move on Frontier Day. the only way to figure out what super dangerous thing the Changelings stole from Daystrom is to break in themselves, but they need to get past the continuously foreshadowed “astonishingly lethal AI system.” Worf and Raffi will sneak in with Riker joining for… reasons. Another awkward Seven/Raffi transporter room moment is punctuated by Worf chiming in with “Breakups on my home world seldom end without bloodshed”… Not helping, dude. On Daystrom Station, Krinn’s key works and they head to the vault, passing by all sorts of dangerous easter eggs. Riker delights in Worf jumping at the sight of an “attack tribble” but is dismayed his old shipmate isn’t having as much fun as he is. The Klingon is focused on the mission and his new zen attitude. “We will not be prey, we will be friendly energy” garners another eye roll from Will. The often-mentioned security system makes its presence known, curiously starting with a holographic crow and a few notes on violin all leading up to another reunion when Riker recognizes the guy at the end of the corridor holding a gun… it’s Professor Moriarty. I think, therefore holy sh-t!
“You always want to impart the best aspects of yourself to them.”
With ships patrolling Daystrom Station, Picard takes the Titan to the Fleet Museum for help only to be met with a chilly reception from another old friend. Commodore Geordi La Forge (with second daughter Alandra) beams over and even another Beverly hug can’t tamp down his anger over Picard putting his daughter Sidney in danger, but she has her own ideas on how to run her life, egged on by her charming new pal Jack. Hello. Jean-Luc is there to get Geordi to change the ship’s transponder signal, but apparently that won’t work with newfangled ships like Titan since they are all connected to each other (despite Geordi’s three-memo objections), which is how Starfleet keeps on finding them. Even after being briefed on the Changeling threat, Geordi says he just can’t put his family in any more danger. While Geordi and Picard debate, Jack and Seven indulge in some vintage starship porn as they swipe right through some of Starfleet’s greatest hits, where Jack reveals he has a thing for retro. Seven joins in his admiration but she only has eyes for one particular museum ship, the one she called home. Jack shows he’s a chip off the old block, offering up what she calls a classic Picard “poetic drive-by observation” that makes her feel seen. They finish their virtual shipyard tour focusing on a certain Klingon Bird of Prey (from “the whole whale thing”), with Seven noting it was hard to find in San Francisco Bay… and you can almost see the light bulb pop up above Jack.
Things are wrapping up with Geordi and Jean-Luc as they come to an understanding over the former Enterprise-D’s chief engineer’s chief motivation, protecting his family. So that’s that, the Titan will depart and leave Sidney behind. As Picard and Seven start planning a potentially suicidal attack run return to Daystrom, Sidney takes a turn at her dad, making it clear she isn’t afraid and doesn’t need his protection. She wants to save the galaxy, just like he taught her—just like he used to do himself. Sidney confers with Alandra, and Jack sidles up to the La Forge sisters to ask if they are up for some “minor larceny,” and they all slink away while Captain Shaw uncharacteristically fanboys out over having the legendary engineer on his ship. As Geordi prepares to depart, things start going all wonky and he immediately knows what’s happening, accusing Picard of chicanery until they both realize their kids are the ones behind what is now clearly a failing attempt to install the cloaking device stolen from the “HMS Bounty.” Down in engineering, the La Forge sisters and Jack struggle to stop a chain reaction resulting from their kluge until pops arrives to save the day (and warns the boy to stay the hell away from his daughter). Looks like Geordi is the latest recruit to join the outlaw Titan crew, but he has the presence of mind to get a message to his wife that he will be late for dinner. Priorities.
“Evolution is not an act of preservation, it’s addition.”
A menacing Moriarty scoffs at Raffi’s dismissal of him as a mere “19th-century holo villain,” firing back with his old gun and trash talk about “pathetic old warriors.” Riker picks up on the musical tones, responding by whistling a tune that pleases the old hologram, who disappears, opening the final door in this spooky maze of a station. Recalling an old memory, Riker has put the pieces together as they enter the final chamber to find what he was expecting… Data, but “not our Data,” who Raffi notes, is very dead. (Twice.) Thankfully, this apparently deactivated version of Data comes with a recorded intro manual courtesy of Altan Soong. The scientist behind the synths of season one (including the one housing Jean-Luc Picard’s consciousness) explains that before he died, he had one last creation, which includes bits of Data along with his extended android family all inside a new synth with the “true human aesthetic of age.” The goal was to build a legacy that could combine all these elements to create someone who “will rise to be the best of us,” but the combination didn’t work, leaving the different personalities in conflict. The Daystrom folks still decided to put the resulting “insane AI” in control of security, and in fact, the manifest they are looking for is also buried inside… so it looks like “Data” is joining the band.
The Titan finally returns to Daystrom, but with Starfleet security closing in, Riker decides to go solo to buy the team time, getting himself tagged with a transport inhibitor while the rest beam away. On the Titan, the gang is shocked to see the new Data, and Worf vows he will get Riker back. After Jack and Picard, along with the La Forge family, have nice moments reflecting on what they learned in this episode, everyone gathers around their new old friend, with Jean-Luc particularly rattled seeing Data after watching him die… twice. Geordi and Beverly confirm this isn’t really Data, but “something else.” Once he’s rebooted, we meet some of the battling personalities crammed into this “almost human” android, including Data, B-4, Soong, and (gulp) Lore. The Data personality gets the upper hand long enough to reveal what the Changelings took from Daystrom. After a bit of a Who’s On First routine, it becomes clear the bad guys were really after Jean-Luc Picard—specifically the corpse left over after his consciousness was downloaded into a new synth body way back at the end of season 1. As we take that in, we are left with a final scene of Riker being tortured by a Starfleet security officer who turns out to be Vadic, who takes him to the Shrike. His jovial defiance to protect Titan’s location melts when he sees who else the baddy has in custody… It’s Deanna… “Oh, Will.”
“The Bounty” is a very satisfying episode that continues the trend of carrying on the season story while delivering a good standalone episode. Following the submarine movie and cold war thriller vibes of recent episodes, this week things lighten up for a fun heist movie style adventure, which fits perfectly with the goal to bring back more members of the team to pull off the job. Previous seasons have tried the heist thing, but this was by far the most successful go at it. The new tone brought back some of the humor missing from the previous episode, especially in the amusing Riker/Worf team-up. Even with the nostalgic touches ramped up, what holds the episode together is excellent character beats, especially from some of the new youngsters.
All these character stories are tied together by building on the season theme of family and connection with some exploration of the meaning of legacy. This was punctuated by strong performances from the fathers: Patrick Stewart’s Picard, LeVar Burton’s Geordi, and the surprise appearance of Brent Spiner as Altan Soong. Burton really made the wait for him to finally show up worth it with a nuanced performance, relishing in Geordi’s more seasoned mature family man as the latest character to come into conflict with Picard before coming back together in harmony, remembering their core bond, and in Geordi’s case, his more risk-taking younger self. We get one last welcome return with Marina Sirtis actually in the same room as Jonathan Frakes for a heartbreakingly short reunion. It took six episodes, but that was the right approach to get all six TNG legacy characters back. However, it will likely take until the final couple of episodes to get them all in the same room.
Even with all the various Next Generation reunions, the new kids are starting to come out of the shadows of their famous fathers, with great chemistry between Ed Speleers and Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut as Jack and Sidney start to show more agency, a hint of romance, and some of the promise of the hoped-for “Next Next Generation” spinoff. However, if we are to believe that Jeri Ryan would lead such a series, there should be more focus on Seven this season. Even though he got in some funny lines, the way the Raffi/Seven relationship was hand-waved away with Worf doing most of the talking feels incomplete, and presuming Raffi will go with Worf to rescue Riker, this may be all we get for a while.
That said, Seven’s little Voyager moment was beautiful and a great example of how Picard season 3 has found a way to have quiet character beats woven into the episode. Keeping the story grounded and human was a challenge against the overwhelming backdrop of the visits to Daystrom Station and the Starfleet Museum, where the nostalgia bordered on the indulgent. Even in the midst of the nostalgia, the Jack and Seven scenes were there as the setup for Jack’s little heist-within-a-heist-episode of the cloaking device from the famous Klingon Bird of Prey from Star Trek IV (and Star Trek III), although the episode title “The Bounty” was a bit too cute and had fans putting the pieces together already ahead of the premiere. Speaking of grounded, it was nice to see another side of Todd Stashwick’s “old grease monkey” Shaw meeting his engineering hero Geordi, and fun lines like “Yeah, it’s been a weird week” are what make this character continue to stand out. On the other end of the spectrum, Amanda Plummer’s villain has returned to her more mustache-twirly villainous ways, losing some of the nuance we saw recently. By the way, why did two security officers just stand by and watch (before getting vaporized) as she tortured one of Starfleet’s most celebrated captains? Adding to the menace and perhaps even unpredictability of her splinter group, the casualness with how Vadic killed one of her crew showed she does not adhere to the core tenet of the Founders to never harm a fellow Changeling.
Ol’ Yellow Eyes Is Back
The return of Brent Spiner as “Data?” (hoping that “Daystrom Android M510” doesn’t catch on) was always going to be risky after killing him off a second time in Picard season 1, yet it worked beautifully, tying into the plot and family themes. Allowing Spiner to play his own age was also deftly handled. As the Data/Geordi relationship was such a key part of Next Gen, it was smart to bring them back together in the same episode, and the brief scenes between the two were very touching. Giving this new version of Data a mix of personalities that include his evil twin Lore and even his daughter Lal sets up an interesting arc that could allow the character to evolve past anything we saw in the four TNG feature films. Pre-season publicity revealed that Spiner is returning as a version of Lore, which could have been a misdirection, but is more likely an indication that his journey to becoming something new will have some bumps along the road. The return of Daniel Davis as Moriarty as Data’s sort of gatekeeper wasn’t really necessary and a bit of a hat on a hat. Because it was such a small moment, the fun of it was already ruined by being revealed in previous trailers.
Data brought a key piece of information, that the corpse of Jean-Luc Picard was the important item stolen from Daystrom. Combined with their continued obsession over capturing Jack, it’s now clear there is something literally inside their bodies which is important to the Changelings or their masters. Beverly diagnosing that Jack’s visions were a result of Irumodic Syndrome doesn’t seem to be the full story, rather just a piece of his connection to the bigger plot that has yet to be revealed. The season’s main story continues to evolve just enough in each episode to keep the mysteries going without just teasing the audience or diverting into frustrating blind alleys, like some other new era serialized Trek seasons. It’s now clear that there is going to be a huge attack on Frontier Day, and as Geordi reminds us, the whole fleet is going to be there. Even though it makes no sense that Captain Shaw and the Titan crew were not aware of it, Geordi revealing that all new ships are tied together in a huge network sounds rather Chekhov’s Gunny. Seems like there is going to be a good reason to return to his museum for some more old ship shopping. And Alandra’s mention to her dad, “What about Hangar Bay 12?” was certainly intriguing.
“The Bounty” was simply fun, but never corny. The callbacks and Easter eggs may be on the fan service side, but the execution and organic character stories make it all work. The TNG gang is now all nicely included in the story, and the new characters are starting to grow on their own. We are in the middle of the season and the show maintains the same level of excitement, mystery, and anticipation for more.
- Alandra La Forge is played by LeVar Burton’s real-life daughter Mica Burton.
- Playing Daystrom Android M510 would count as the fourth different character Brent Spiner has played on Picard, along with the original Data, Altan Soong, and Adam Soong.
- The holographic raven was a hint from the TNG episode “Birthright, Part I” when Data first dreamed.
- The song Riker whistles is “Pop Goes The Weasel,” which he remembered from his first meeting with Data on the holodeck in the TNG series premiere “Encounter at Farpoint.” Footage from that episode was shown.
- At Data’s wake in Nemesis, Riker couldn’t remember which song it was when recalling how Data “couldn’t get the tune right.”
- The musical notation for “Pop Goes The Weasel” has been in the end credits as a clue all along, as has a diagram of the Fleet Museum (that included the USS Voyager).
- One of the ships at Daystrom Station was the USS Sternbach, named for veteran Star Trek designer and illustrator Rick Sternbach.
- Even though Deep Space Nine introduced Section 31 as a secret rogue operation outside of the Starfleet chain of command, Worf described it as a “critical division of Starfleet Intelligence” and called the Changeling virus they created a “Starfleet-made virus.” Daystrom Station was also described as housing “many of Section 31’s most nefarious table scraps.” This continues a trend of the modern era of Star Trek to retcon Section 31 as an official part of Starfleet that isn’t nearly as secret.
- Worf admitted he was “practicing deceit” when he said he had “gone into battle with lovers countless times;” however, he did go into battle with former lover/wife Jadzia Dax and arguably K’Ehleyr.
- The USS New Jersey in the Fleet Museum was a classic Constitution Class ship, like the original USS Enterprise as seen on Star Trek: The Original Series, and not the updated design seen in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.
- The ship (and its NCC-1975 registration) was likely in honor of showrunner Terry Matalas, born in Raritan, New Jersey on December 11, 1975.
… more analysis to come from Daystrom and Museum.
Easter eggs and more to come
This episode had quite a few more nods to classic Star Trek, especially inside Daystrom Station and the Fleet Museum (including Geordi’s office). Keep an eye out for a TrekMovie Easter Egg analysis for this episode.
We will discuss the episode in detail on Friday’s episode of All Access Star Trek. every Friday, the TrekMovie.com All Access Star Trek podcast covers the latest news in the Star Trek Universe. The podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Stitcher and is part of the TrekMovie Podcast Network.
Picard streams exclusively on Paramount+ in the Americas, Europe, the Caribbean and South Korea. It also streams internationally on Amazon Prime Video in more than 200 countries and territories. In Canada, it airs on Bell Media’s CTV Sci-Fi Channel and streams on Crave.
Keep up with news about the Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com.
I am trying to wrap my head around James T. Kirk’s corpse being stored in a cryogenic tube on the Daystrom station. I hope this gets explained/resolved, because it raises some ghastly prospects, but I won’t jump to conclusions here. I’m trusting Matalas and the team to not leave that hanging. Seeing that pop up distracted me somewhat.
I have the same question. Maybe it is the same answer for why they have Picard’s original body?
Dunno why they’d need Kirk’s body for anything. He was nominally crushed by a several hundred pound bridge. Unless there was some kind of residual temporal energy from the Nexus…
Which is why the pod display is even more interesting. The skeletal form displayed is *100%* intact and there’s not a single sign of any crushing damage or injuries that Kirk would have sustained. No fractured spine, no broken ribs, no broken pelvis or shoulder..it’s 100% there.
Which tells me either he’s had some nanoprobe refreshers, a touch of Gensis Juice..or is a clone
I think if not connected, the suggestion is definitely there.
And Picards for that matter.
We know that the Romulans had programs where they cloned Federation Officers, maybe S31 had a similar program to create ultraloyal Starfleet personnel.
Kirk was loyal to Starfleet, but as we all know bent the rules at times. One could make an argument he was anything but ultra loyal. He did steal and destroy a Starship. Not to mention serve Roman Ale at a diplomatic function.
Yes indeed, all true. But perhaps they have the ability to harvest his work ethic, his morality, his confidence.
If they DO resurrect him, it should be as a villain, and they should take a bunch of meta potshots at what a jerk Shatner is.
Wouldn’t mind the first part. But as for the second part. Uhhh no. Lets seperate the character from the actor in this case. Maybe they should bring back Sulu as well and make him a whining ***** just like George Takei.
Except that wouldn’t be accurate to who Takei is as a person. If we want something more true to life, I suggest they create a Sulu clone army to spread love and tolerance to squash right wing bigotry, and he must do battle with a Kirk Clone, who like Shatner, is a hateful, sniveling buffoon!
Let’s keep this civil now. Shatner and Takei are who they are. I don’t watch Trek for the actors personal beliefs or actions. Yes, Shatner can be a jerk at times, Takei can be just the same, he just hides it better. They are old grumpy men, I pay that part no mind.
As for the “Clone Army”, Well you’re getting into a “Galaxy Far….Far…Away” territory.
“ a whining ***** just like George Takei.”
“Let’s keep things civil now.”
They both need to realize the passage of time, brevity of life, make amends, forgive, and move on.
I take it you know Shatner personally to make that assessment? Here’s a little tidbit on Takei’s character or moreso lack thereof: He did the voice for Ohga in the Paws of Fury animated movie, and when he found out the character was rather obese, he went on a tirade being upset because since he’s so fit and slim and athletic it was an insult to him that his voice would be used for such a character. What a vain narcissistic little man, but we knew that already right?
Yes, Shatner is my next door neighbor. He’s the worst, always complaining to the town because my dad doesn’t mow the lawn often enough for his liking.
And he gets water on your driveway when he cleans his car… Gotcha.
He doesn’t have a car, just a segway.
You should have said “just a horse”…
So… your dad mows the lawn… right. But joking aside, I once had a neighbor who did just that, complain to the city because I hadn’t mowed my lawn. I had just moved in and was getting ready to redo my entire lawn so I hadn’t bothered to mow it yet… So I went over one day and told him that the day he would start paying my mortgage is the day he could complain on my mowing habits. I get that neighbors don’t like messy lawns next to them, but tell me in my face.
Jokes aside: neighbors are the worst. Stay out of my business, if it’s not intruding on your property.
Eeek. I hope this is an awkward attempt at humor. Otherwise this is highly personally identifiable information.
Why is Shatner hateful? I haven’t met Shatner or Takei but I know people who have spent time with both and they were both described as charming and engaging.
Shatner has never been described by anyone as a bigot so I’m not sure where this is coming from.
IIRC Takei has claimed that Shatner took some screen time away from him or some other BS during the days of TOS. Shatner himself has claimed that Takei, who wasn’t a main cast member at the time (read: not listed in the opening credits; rules were different then) wasn’t on set as often as he was. Might be wrong though.
Oddly enough, though, Takei allegedly didn’t have any issues with Shatner when they were doing Star Trek V (or so sayeth Wikipedia).
Shatner isn’t hateful, sniveling or a buffoon. And Takei won’t leave the guy alone – when it come’s to Shatner, Takei is petty, vindictive and certainly not tolerant.
I have no idea what any of this has to do with this episode.
Kirk resurrected as a villain? Sounds like his return in his own novels.
The body is actually Paul Wesley’s Kirk…
It’s very possible it was just an easter egg to tie up the long-running question of why they’d leave Kirk’s body on the planet in Generations.
It’s also possible they’ll clone him and have Kirk captain the Enterprise-A to save the day in the finale.
If that happens I wonder if they’ll get Paul Wesley to play the part of Kirk or just do a Shatner de-aging.
As much of a jerk The Shat can be IRL, I think it’d be a fairly gross slap to not use him when able.
Shatner has been public about his disdain for current iterations of Trek. He deserves the slap in the face.
Hey mods, why are you allowing Alpha Predator to spew hatred and advocate violence on these boards? It would be nice if this could be a place of tolerance. The atmosphere is quickly becoming an unwelcoming place for the rest of us. Ban him already.
I completely agree. I’ve been reading the comments for quite a while now but have always been apprehensive about posting because of this person and their trolling. Also, I personally hope Mr. Shatner does show up in the last four episodes since he’d be someone they could trust to captain an untethered starship (hopefully the “A”?). I remember an interview with him a while back where he said he’d been working with a company that had made a completely realistic avatar of his younger self that could be used in productions. If they could do it for Mark Hamill in the Book of Boba Fett, why not Bill Shatner?
Having differences of opinion that you disagree with =/= trolling.
Do not do these things:
Wait, what where’s he* advocating violence?
*this is an assumption, I suppose.
No one is advocating violence unless you believe PhantomPhan was referring to a literal slap in the face. It’s a figure of speech /Facepalm
I just ignore the guy. I see the name and move on. Haven’t read anything he’s posted for quite some time now and reading the threads is a much better experience for it.
He’s an obvious troll so just stop feeding him.
Warning to AlphaPredator. It’s against our commenting rules to threaten violence against anyone celebrity or not. There’s no need for it.
Wait, does that extend to euphemisms which use violent imagery but are not themselves violent?
See TBW’s comment. Idioms are not actual expressions of violence. Sigh.
Thanks for suggesting the mods are actually wrong and you will ignore their warnings, thus continuing to make this site an unwelcoming environment for the majority of us. I see there’s no point in posting here if this place will just devolve further into toxicity.
*Blink*. Seriously, saying someone “deserves a slap in the face” is “threatening violence”? “Slap in the face” is an aphorism — one that,however misguided Alpha Predator’s evidence-free insinuation that Mr. Shatner is some kind of racist, is not to be taken literally.
I’ve never said he was a racist, read again: I said he was bigoted, and there’s plenty of evidence for that.
To quote Frank Underwood: potato, potahto.
No, unfortunately, that’s not how that works. They are not mutually exclusive terms. Contrary to what Denny C would have you believe, Shat has been accused of being a bigot by many, including mainstream media outlets. To each their own, if you want to ignore that.
And yes, M###, the admins are incorrect. A euphemism used by someone else is not a threat of violence, of which I would never advocate, particularly as someone deeply involved in domestic abuse causes.
What evidence? Bigoted against who? Takei?
I was a big fan of Takei — I congratulated him via email for coming out and he (or his team) wrote a lovely reply — but this constant Shatner bashing has long been ridiculous.
Yes, Shatner shouldn’t take the bait, but Takei crossed the line years ago.
Takei also was pretty ungracious when Beyond made Sulu gay in an attempt to honour him (they “twisted” Gene Roddenberry’s creation, he said).
I’m no longer a fan. Love Sulu, though.
I take exception to calling Takei ungracious about the Star Trek Beyond homage. You do understand he was coming at it from a position of it contravening his and Roddenberry’s artistic interpretation of the character, right? The fact that Simon Pegg had to give a somewhat messy and convoluted explanation of how the Kelvin Event rippled through time and made Sulu gay makes it even more awkward and unnecessary.
Takei never played Sulu as if he was gay, he said he would prefer they not use his character to represent the LGBT community but rather use a new character. It could even easily be interpreted as the writers trading on Takei’s sexuality and brand rather than honoring it. Saying, “Oh but this is an alternate reality Sulu who was made gay just like George Takei famously is, isn’t that great?” is a pretty reasonable thing to make the man uneasy as much as he could take it as flattery.
What would it mean, exactly,for George to play Sulu as if he were gay? Can you explain that one for me?
I respect Takei, but consider him totally off-base on this one.
As an actor you have your internal understanding of the character. Sulu is a thinly written character to say the least, but Takei plays him as if he’s romantically interested in women, especially in the movies (the infatuation with Ilia and the female Klingon in The Final Frontier, for instance.) If he was working from the idea that Sulu was gay or bi he may well have found a way to play those scenes differently. That’s his ineffable artistic contribution.
This is not to say the actor can’t be at odds with the writer’s and director’s POV. Harrison Ford still maintains that Deckard isn’t a replicant while Ridley Scott is adamant that he is. But Blade Runner 2049 was written in such a way that both of them could still be right. If Ford had changed his mind, it’s easy to imagine the script explicitly leaning into being a movie about finding the progeny of two robots. But an entire script was written to accommodate him, because he was essential to the creative process.
And then I think there is a legitimate criticism in saying that Pegg and co. were trading on Takei’s personal celebrity in order to get diversity points. You could say “honoring,” but you could also say “exploiting.” Takei took a big leap of courage to come out in his personal life and did it in such an effective a way that it actually made him a bigger celebrity. If he hadn’t done that, it is fair to say that Star Trek Beyond would never have thought to change the nature of the Sulu character. So it’s absolutely fair to both Takei and Pegg to say it’s an affectionate homage as much as it is cheap exploitation.
But what is incontrovertible is that when Takei respectfully declined to give his approval for this character decision, the creatives behind Beyond decided to do it anyway. Is there a reason they couldn’t have revealed that same aspect in Scotty, Chekov, Commodore Paris, Krall, or Jaylah instead? No. They thought it was safe because everyone knew Takei was gay, so it was an easily sell to apply that to the character he played but never intended to align with his sexuality. They also didn’t prioritize whatever backlash might happen when he got asked about it later, inevitably.
I think he has a right to take exception to that and I firmly respect it.
I agree with Ian on this one. GT can be annoying but I very much respected his take on this at the time.
Of course Shatner!! Fans have been waiting for so many years to see Shatner’s Kirk brought back. It didn’t happen because the proposed attempts wouldn’t have worked out story-wise. Now it could work!
Fingers crossed he demands too much money, like in 2005.
That was 18 years ago… there will not be many opportunities to bring Shatner-Kirk back, so I don’t think it would fail because of that reason nor would Shatner let go the maybe last opportunity.
I’m hoping they don’t even try. Shatner’s return is something the world doesn’t need (but I think it’s 50/50 because the fandom is sad and Matalas seems to want to tickle every little sad bone it has left)
The fandom just wants to have a spark of joy and for some Trek is where they hope to get that spark.
The world *really* sucks right now and frankly I’ll take every moment of happines I can get. I don’t care if its fan pandering, TNG and DS9 was full of pandering but virtually no one talks about it now.
Seeing Shatner is not a spark of joy, I’ve made that abundantly clear.
Per TrekMovie under Comments and Moderation:
Do not do these things:
Might as well tell that to the countless commenters who personally insult the people behind Discovery and earlier Picard in nearly every article.
Maybe Chris Pine would be interested in doing it.
THAT i would be all for! Anything Pine is a huge addition to the franchise.
Hopefully Chris Pine.
A younger clone or “genesis reverse aging” of Kirk coming out as Chris Pine wouldn’t break my heart..I do like Pines Kirk
Pine would probably want as much or more than Shatner would. Don’t forget, he’s used to movie-level salaries.
Yes, but Pine would be worth it!
Paul Wesley sucks as Kirk. For a legacy sequel series, it would be very disappointing. I’d rather no Kirk appearance at all.
Agreed there. I have no idea why they picked that guy to portray Kirk. No similarity to Shatner, Pine or the character itself, imo.
I really hope it’s the former.
Same, and that’s what it felt like to me when I first watched it. Matalas is just tying up some loose ends.
Good God. That would be fantastic.
I’m absolutely flabbergasted that people are loving all the fan service so much, considering how many complain about fan service… and that people ACTUALLY want Kirk cloned. Please god, no, especially if it’s Shatner.
If there’s one thing that recent SciFi has demonstrated (Both Trek and Star Wars) is that people complain about “obvious fan service”…but when it shows up, they lose their minds.
Fan service sells because it hits the nostalgia buttons.
No argument there. It’s just funny to see in action. I know some will say “well this is fan service done RIGHT!” …and while I don’t disagree, I think it’s clear they went for fan service first, and simply crafted a story that allowed for a ton of it, which I might argue is not fan service done right.
Not that i’m complaining. They did it well. I’m just surprised it’s so well-received by so many. I really expected a more split opinion.
..not really interested in Kirk being cloned (unless it was integral to the story), and I’ve never had a problem separating Kirk the character from Shatner the actor. I’ve never been terribly interested in Shatner himself, even though he portrayed my favorite Trek character.
Perhaps they introduced Kirk’s remains here for inclusion in the future (possible) Sec. 31 show.
I said it elsewhere, but my instinct is it was just Matalas’ attempt to tie up the long-standing fan question of why Kirk’s remains were left on Veridian III when he was such a legendary figure in Starfleet history. It’s such a hot topic that it was even brought up on these forums not three days ago!
I’m just thrilled that in-universe, we finally see that Starfleet paid Kirk proper homage, not only by storing his remains, but by featuring the ENT-A in the museum. That’s an itch I’ve needed scratched since 1994. Whew!
Daystrom station also pipes the TMP theme through the halls as background Muzak for the museum tours.
Isn’t ENT A just the Yorktown?
Where was it ever canonically stated that Kirk’s remains were left on Veridian and not repatriated to Earth?
It wasn’t but that was what fans have been crowing about for decades, because the last we saw of them was sitting under a pile of rocks, and there was nothing canonically that said they’d been removed.
There was nothing canonical to say that the saucer section was removed, either, but the other planet in the Veridian system’s golidlocks zone was inhabited. It stands to reason that Starfleet would erase all evidence of alien visitation.
Hey, i’m just relaying a common fan sentiment, i’m not saying it made a ton of sense! As you well know, I think most fan complaints are utter hogwash…
The fate of Kirk’s corpse has never been dealt with. My head canon is that eventually his body was exhumed and laid to reset somewhere appropriate. But also… Where do people get the idea that his actual corpse is there? It just looked like data scans to me. I figured the corpse was elsewhere.
Alright, we get it, you hate Shatner. Get over it already! All I see through this entire post is you bashing Shatner at every chance you get. We GET it. Now move on. Or in the words of Shatner… “Get a life!”
I have moved on, everyone else just loves to continue harping on it. Yourself included.
Seems like they almost merging it with the Shatnerverse
Ever since I watched the episode in the wee hours of the morning I couldn’t help but feel I’ve been there before.
So, not only do hero captains who hang on too long become badmirals, principal actors who play captains try to remould the franchise in the imp age of their own fan fiction.
Nah. Shatnerverse has been dead since 07.
I can’t help but wonder if someone dies in an unusual/temporal event…like say…
Walking out of a intergalatic swirling space time rift in the exact same condition that you vanished out of the Deflector Control Room of the Enterprise B…that Starfleet might be a bit curious as to what exactly may also have been different about you.
…but it also raises a wild ass possibility of Shatner returning, somehow, as JTK in the future..but I cannot imagine, unless its already been filmed, that this happens as Shatner isn’t getting a single day younger.
You saw Kirks Corpse? where?
When they first arrive at Daystrom. Riker looks into a vault and sees the Phasing Cloak from “Pegasus” and Worf passes a chamber with a display of a human skeleton (with ghost lines of flesh around it) and “James T Kirk” on it.
That’s not the phasing cloak. That was the Genesis device. We also saw a genetically modified tribble, a Borg vinculum, and what appeared to be the spatial trajector from the VOY episode Prime Factors.
Well…if its a Genesis Device..its starting to walk and talk like “rebirth” is the theme for this season
It says “Genesis II device” on the display, you have to look quickly though. The first thing Riker passes by before that is the weapon from the beginning of Nemesis – the one Senator Talora (sp?) uses to kill off the Romulan senate.
The Kirk display is the only item that gets a second of pause/kinda close-up to look at, everything else goes by very quickly.
Genesis II is also the title of unsuccessful pilot by Gene Roddenberry from 1973.
I thought the ‘Genesis II’ was a good double entendre.
I think/thought the first thing Riker passes by was the weapon from the beginning of Nemesis – the one used to kill off the Romulan senate. Could be the spatial trajector tho!
That doesn’t mean his corpse was there. Far from it. Just looked to me like scans of his skeleton. Why it’s there is a mystery but I never once thought it was his actual corpse!
All evidence suggests says his corpse was there.
Every other containment unit had a physical specimen of some kind, and we know Picard’s body was there (and stolen), so clearly the facility houses human remains. No reason to think Kirk’s body WASN’T there until something on-screen says it wasn’t.
I wasn’t sure if it was Kirk’s remains or a clone of him. There was the sound effect of the TOS bio bed playing when the camera did the close up of the display. Plus showing the Genesis 2 device right before, was making me think he was alive.
Oh the possibilities if he is cloned by Section 31!
I didn’t catch that sound effect, that’s cool!
I think it is self-evident: to keep people from messing with his remains should they be found on Veridian III as well as possibly preserving the historical record of his death saving the Enterprise B.
On the more nefarious side of things, maybe Section 31 is into cloning.
Also probably to prevent the neighbor planet aliens get contaminated if they get space travel and find an alien skeleton on their sister planet.
Did I miss something? I only saw Picard’s body there, not Kirk’s!
After Riker looks ino the chamber with the Genesis Device, Worf passes by one with a display of a human body and “James T Kirk” with the TOS BioBed sound
Yes, you missed it. Raffi passed by and the camera gave it a prolonged look, and the TOS theme played.
Ah yes. Thanks.
No. Kirk’s body was never shown. Only what looked like scans of his skeleton with his name as the “Subject”.
Neither were half the things shown on the screens, but we know they were there. Facepalm.
My guess is it was there for safekeeping. I’m ok with it. Doesn’t seem that weird to me, honestly.
With an active biobed support sound?
Right? What was the point of adding that biobed sound effect if Kirk was just a frozen corpse?
JTK takes command of the Ent-A to help Picard fight the electronically hijacked fleet lead by Locutus?
If they do that, we’d be in full on fan-film mode. I really hop that doesn’t happen.
They’re preserving his body just in case 25th medical science discovers a cure for falling off a bridge…
25th century medical science
Now THATS funny! (was it a reference to the old Simpsons gag about 25 stab wounds to the back?)
Wouldn’t it need to be a cure for having a bridge fall on you?
“Bridge on the Captain!”
That made me laugh!
Kirk has only died twice. That’s not a lot for Star Trek. And both times it was in the same movie so definitely a candidate for a comeback.
Philippa just likes keeping it around for parties. 😮
surly just that they never revealed that he did not actually die on the Enterprise B but in the 24th century with Picard in Generations… they picked him up when they picked up 1701-D… why they didn’t just bury him though back in Iowa…
There really should have been a major funeral ceremony, posthumous re-promotion to Admiral, etc. when they recovered his remains.
I came here for this comment alone.
…and Picard’s corpse too. So people don’t bury the dead any more in the 25th century? It’s like Lenin’s tomb…
I am trying to wrap my head around that too. I always figured that Picard told Spock that he found James Kirk. Maybe Spock had the body moved. I hate that we never got a chance to really see Spocks reaction to Kirks Death. There is no way Picard would keep that from Spock knowing the history between him and Jim.
Maybe Kirks reemergence was classified by Section 31 because of it involved time travel. There was no indication in the movie that Picard told Riker or the crew that he found Kirk.
It never made sense to me that Picard would leave his body on that planet like that.
You can’t just drop something like that in an episode. Something is afoot….
Agree with everything you said there, Sisko. Been wondering about all that for about 30 years now. Unbelievable.
The real question I have is, given the note about “Project Phoenix” — is this a setup for the finale? Or is it just opening the door for a future project? Is that project in the works, or is it just “here’s a breadcrumb if anyone ever wants to follow it in the future”?
I believe it is not James T Kirk but the android James T Kirk created in What Are Little Girls Made Of by Rodger Corby. This was one of the first androids we saw and experienced in Star Trek and does tie into the hit that Matalas said about hints to TOS and Picards Gollum suit?
No, someone was able to decipher the text on the screen and it says clearly it’s Kirk’s corpse, retrieved from Veridian III for “Project Phoenix.”
Really? I tried and couldn’t; too fuzzy on my screen. Could you please post that text on this thread? Thanks!
Yeah… I was going to bring that up in my original comment. Why the X-Rays of Kirk or whatever it was? Truly hope that wasn’t his actual 30 year old corpse. Just scans for some reason.
Honestly, I don’t know what to hope for here.
How do you know it’s his “corpse”? Wouldn’t it be more likely that he is in some type of cryogenic sleep? This at least opens up all types of possibilities…Kirk may very well be alive.
So this episode was a much better episode then the previous one (which was the weakest of the season imo). Overall i enjoyed this episode but it did have it’s faults as I’m finding this season again to be suffering from the same problem that S2 suffered from which is the story line feels like it’s being stretched to fit the 10 episode season. I think they could of made this season in 2 parts the first 5 episodes with the current story line and then the other 5 dealing with loose ends from TNG but that is just my opinion. Vadic is a nutjob especially when she murdered one of her own people but changelings do have a rule that no changeling harms another but maybe it’s different with these changelings as they are definitely not acting like the ones from DS9 (i finished a re-watch of DS9 a few days ago). Though honestly i am kind of tired of Vadic i don’t think she is a good villian and i want her gone hopefully the character gets killed off in the next episode and i feel these changelings aren’t as smart as the ones from DS9. Jack having Irumodic Syndrome is interesting. I think it’s a nice tie into S2 with Picard’s mother as i believe the reason why she was acting the way she did was because of the Syndrome too and if she did have it then she passed it on to Picard and now he passed it on to Jack. I still don’t understand how it turned him into Jack Bauer in the previous episodes though i suspect there is more to this then just Irumodic Syndrome. I enjoyed seeing the reunion between Worf and the other TNG crew and it’s sad that it looks like the break up between 7 and Raffi was real i hope they get back together again at the end of the show. Though do they really need to play the Klingon theme nearly every time Worf appears on screen? It was a lovely touch the first time but i feel it’s being over used now lol. Loved hearing S31 being mentioned and I’m glad to see Terry hasn’t listened to the haters who wanted him to forget about the organization. Though i would of loved some sort of tiny reference to Georgiou and the S31 show which i still hope we get. It was neat seeing a Tribble and Worfs reaction to it and i wonder if the genetic modification has something to do with the Short Trek The Trouble With Edward? Cool seeing the Genesis device along with all the other references too. Moriarty being the defense AI was not surprising as that was easily expected as soon as they mentioned an AI at the station but i felt it was a waste to bring the ‘character’ back just for a few minutes. Loved seeing the fleet museum and all the ships docked there. Seeing the Defiant was great though the CGI of the TOS Constitution class wasn’t good imo as it felt off but the A was nice looking and Voyager was the best looking one of them all. Seeing Voyager makes me wish they would do a remaster of Voyager with that CGI and seeing the Bounty from Trek IV was neat. Loved seeing Geordi again and his reunion with Picard and Beverly. It was great seeing Altan Soong via the video log and the scenes between Picard and Geordi were great and this ‘Data’ or whatever he is now interesting. Though i don’t like how Geordi was like in this episode i understand that he is putting his daughters safety first but the changeling have infiltrated Starfleet his daughters are already in danger and I’m glad Sydney gave him a stern talking to. He needed to be reminded that a crew can be family too. Seeing Shaw fanboying over Geordi was lol. I still don’t like him and i hope if there is a Titan show that he isn’t in it. But if he is i hope he is written better then he is in this show. Stealing the cloak from the bounty was a interesting idea but wouldn’t it be obsolete against 25th century sensors? and seeing Geordi going Engineer again was cool. Cloaking after dropping out of warp then Shaw saying they have no idea we’re here was silly i mean surely the other ships sensors would still of picked up a ship heading there at warp then ‘disappearing’ from sensors lol. I knew Riker was going to get captured because of one of the trailers showing him on the Shrike. So the changelings stole Picard’s original body hmmm…. I guess that explains how they are more ‘solid’ then the DS9 changelings as… Read more »
Lots to unpack in this episode.
Seven’s commenting about Voyager was great, as had been predicted, but for me the most touching part was when “Data” woke up and was looking around and said, “Geordi?” with the same music that played when crew realized Data was gone in Nemesis was…yeah I don’t think I was expecting to shed a few tears at 1AM, but there I was. It was a surprisingly emotional moment and Levar pulled it off really well with his facial language acting.
Also, NX-01 is visible in the background in the fleet museum, with her refit secondary hull, so while the NX-01 refit had been made “canon” last season, this is the first time we see NX-01 in live action since the end of Enterprise.
Daystron having the phasing cloak prototype from Pegasus was a nice touch also.
I don’t think it’s the phase cloak. I think they actually stole the cloak from the Bounty.
No the cloak on the Titan is the one from Bounty. I thought the phasing cloak from Pegasus was in Daystrom, turns out it was a genesis device
And by the way they already explained that the Genesis device is not the weapon that was stolen, like it could have been rumoured… very, very clever!
Unless it’s misdirection and there is a Genesis III Device.
You mean Genesis II
you mean the Saturn
Was it? Then I missed it. and I was actively searching for it. Not enough to pause the show, though.
Really glad everybody is now caught up with those who got the screeners, so we are now all in the same boat! How many agree with me that the show seemed to get better as it went along (my faves are still 4 & 5, but 6 was no slouch.)
For me, the Burton/Stewart stuff felt a little forced, like somebody was putting words in people’s mouths but they were being uttered with less than satisfactory conviction. Then again I wasn’t ever a fan of the Burton/Doohan interaction either.
It’s freeing because now I can speculate without giving anything away (ie: even if I didn’t spoil a future episode, speculation might reveal what DIDN’T happen in the remaining eps people hadn’t seen).
I have a lot of thoughts I’ll get off my chest over the next few days. Fears of where I don’t want the story going (please don’t have the Defiant/Voyager/Enterprise-A join a relic armada!), and possibilities for that ending twist.
I’m sure they stopped the previews after episode 6 because a lot of things and cameos might happen which would have been spoiled. It’s astonishing how they managed to keep all that stuff top secret, especially since the episodes were shot before (or when?) season 2 aired.
I don’t know. They typically just send screeners in chunks. It’s entirely possible they’ll send out 7-10 this week. That’s what they did for SNW and last season of PIC (in different sized chunks though)
With DEAD RINGERS they sent me the whole series; same with a couple of others recently. But then again, those were all Apple and Amazon, not Par.
I never saw the Kirk stuff at all. Then again, I’m watching on a pretty small TV.
SNW Season 1 they sent 5, then 5. For Picard Season 2 they sent them in chunks of 3, and then the finale, if I recall correctly.
Can tell that you and kmart are winsomely hopeful.
Well, Matalas did say Eps 7-8 went out yesterday, so yes i’m hopeful. We shall see.
Agreed, I couldn’t believe they had put all that together and nothing was leaked!
It really is amazing to me when you realize just how many people viewed the screeners, that nothing leaked out.
I got to say that would be awesome, having the movie era ships have to take out the newer ones with superior tactics.
Do wish the Connie was one of the original 12.
Shades of Battlestar Galactica 2004. All the Starfleet ships are interlinked and are crippled by a surprise attack, so the old museum ships have to come out to fight one last battle.
I thought that when it was mentioned how they were tracking Titan. They would use an old ship that was not wired up with the latest tech. The real problem comes with how they change in insides of them. And we know they just can’t resist overdoing the changes.
I think that is coming. I think the “what about hangar 12?” comment is foreshadowing the return of Enterprise D that Gordi has been restoring in secret.
I’d have to say that I found the LaForge/LaForge interaction even more problematic, as I frankly thought it involved some of the worst writing/acting on display in this entire season.
Still don’t care much about Jack Crusher or his visions. Or for Vadic, whom I trust will eventually be given a backstory or motivation that might finally make her interesting. Six shows in, this has been established as a bottle season mostly taking place on the Titan, which makes the decision to photograph those sets in the least aesthetically pleasing way possible even more inexplicable.
I’ll watch till the end, of course. But now that I’ve seen all the screeners available to most of the press, I’m pretty well convinced that this season was mostly overhyped.
I agree. I saw all 6 early but the pre-release hype was way over the top. While I was very happy and enthused about what I saw, I didn’t think it warranted the overwhelming response it was receiving. I chalked it up to all the excitement that can be natural for diehard fans who have the privilege of seeing stuff early.
Yeah. It started out interesting but it really slowed down. And there were some of the people who previewed who claimed 4,5 & 6 were the best episodes. I tend to disagree. Those were where the show slowed down for me.
And I’m with you regarding Jack and the LaForge daughters. I honestly don’t care much about any of them. But then, I was never all that interested in their fathers either. So there is that. But Jack seems to be the Mcguffin so far and I’m just not curious about him at all.
I’ll reserve judgement on the entirety of the season. For me, this is the ‘skip it’ episode. The fan service has been fairly organic up to this point, today it was like drinking from the fire hose. This was more bad dialogue for LaForge. We can now add damsel in distress to nagging wife for Troi’s story arc this season. It’s also beginning to look like were likely to roll into episode 10 with a pile of loose ends to wrap up, and something is going to seem rushed. It’s been a failing of the other streamers, and may be here, too.
This pretty much was my reaction. I am hoping this was the über-fan service episode so that we can get back to semi-fan service. Once I got to the moment of, “OK, gollum that looks like Soong… fine…” I started to enjoy the last few minutes more than what preceded. ymmv.
Just curious: Why/how did you guys get screeners?
Article for ICG magazine. (and hopefully a couple more elsewhere, because I’ve got a L-O-T of leftover stuff that I had to cut for space. The articles are supposed to be 2500 words, but mine went in at over 4000, and that was with a week spent just cutting down to that from about 9000. However, no other paying outlets have been responsive – what else is new?)
I liked the first few episodes. After that it sorta sputtered. But it’s not unusual to have a bit of a slow down in the middle. I would hope the last 3 will be back to form. Best to end on a high note.
Worf bringing the amazing one-liners again. Hopefully he makes the cut to #StarTrekLegacy and can extend Dorn’s already huge Trek episode count
I don’t believe Moriarty was Data’s gatekeeper, it WAS Data/Lore. Riker even said it was not the same Moriarty: “More like a holograph, a projection”.
I rated the episode a 10 because it was so much joy. I absolutely LOVED seeing all the old ships. And I loved every character beat filmed with very close close-ups. A few of the humor attempts fell flat, which was a pitty, mostly because of the edit and the music (wich was stellar in the more emotional scenes) and it was a pitty Seven and Raffi didn’t have a bigger moment, but there really wasn’t time in this episode for that. It would’ve killed the pacing. They need more moments between them later, but it kinda isn’t the season for that.
Final thoughts: OMG, they’re going to bring back Locutus!
That’s how I read it too. Moriarty was a manifestation of “Data’s” consciousness. Until further notice, though, i’m going to call Spiner’s character “More.”
Yeah, I thought of ‘More’ too haha
What about “Dataset”?
This feels like thats the road they’re going down…this..ShatnerVerse/ Star Trek Armada idea of a cloned Locutus and a ressurrected Kirk
Ow wow that already exists? Didn’t know that. I thought about Kirk being in it, but that would be really too much maybe. Perhaps his remains were a nod to that storyline.
I just hope Picard isn’t going to sacrifice his (modified) golem body in the end for Jack to be able to survive his illness.
The Star Trek Armada storyline has a cloned Locutus leading an invasion of the Federation.
The Shatnerverse has JTK reborn and returns to service as a Captain, only that one involved Spock, etc.
That’s what i’m thinking too. Kirk was just an homage, an easter egg to tie-up a long unresolved question. As for Picard’s human remains, I doubt it’s about a clone. Because they also want Jack, remember. There’s something else going on here.
If I had to guess, Jack is somehow related to the Changelings in a weird sci-fi way — while still being the child of Picard/Crusher — and something in Picard’s remains can help restore him to full Changeling status, which will also help ALL changelings, who are clearly suffering from not being in the Great Link.
Pure speculation, I haven’t seen anything past this episode.
The Kirk body thing though…so they went and dug him up off the planet from Generations? Picard sure seemed to have built a cairn
Guess so..probably just beamed him up onto the Farragut or something when the Enterprise crew was evacuated .
Fans have said for years it was awful to just leave him under a pile of rocks on a random planet, and that Starfleet probably brought his remains back after salvaging the Ent-D. Apparently it went into a S31 vault. Whatever. Just don’t clone him.
I’m not sure I feel any better that he ended up a dead popsicle in a storage unit in a top-secret facility. If that is the extent of that, then that was one fan service that really was no better than being left under a pile of rocks on Veridian III.
Awesome episode from start to finish.
So now I am wondering if this season is gonna be a kind of Star Trek version of Clone Wars? Yes, Trek always had clones or duplicates before but seems a bit cliche to be honest. Although I am giving Matalas the benefit of the doubt as I believe its gonna be something more original than pure “clone wars” thing. Also did everyone see the Genesis device in Daystrom institute or was that just my mind playing tricks on me? Shouldn’t that device be destroyed? The lesson here is that they should have just burned the bodies. I don’t think you can really clone something from ashes.
My gut says this is not about cloning, though that is the obvious conjecture based on what we see.
would be fascinating to know how they have ** the ** Genesis Device, seeing as how it was toasted along with the Reliant.
I don’t think the implication is that it was *the* Reliant device, merely *a* Genesis device. Carol Marcus mentioned prior tests, so many this is a relic from that, or was perhaps under construction prior to the events of TWOK/TSFS.
Or simply Section 31 and company built a new one, perhaps as a doomsday weapon for the Founder planet?
I’m pretty Sure it said ‘Genesis II’ on it. So the implication is that further experiments with the technology continued.
Wasn’t Genesis II also a failed TV pilot from Gene Roddenberry? Maybe there is another deep cut there too.
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking…
If you look at the display it actually says Genesis II device, which is both a reference to the aborted Roddenberry TV show from the ’70s and likely to denote that this is a second version built after TWOK.
I’m going to guess they had more than one. Just as the U.S. had more than one atomic bomb towards the end of World War 2. We only had 2, but Japan didn’t know that. That’s why they surrendered.
Wasn’t it three bombs, if you count the trinity test before the pair were dropped on Japan?
It’s entirely plausible that they built a second Genesis Device, possibly without the flaws of the first one. We never officially find out what happens to that research…
Yeah… The only think I could think of is someone followed the Marcus’ work. Sans protomatter one would hope,
The graphic indicates “Genesis II” – a second torpedo (and a Roddenberry made-for-TV-movie from the early 70s).
Why should it be about cloning, if the changelings can impersonate people?
We kinda already had a Trek version of the clone wars that actually predates the clone wars themselves. The side with the clone army was just the villains.
Pretty powerful opening scene, with the three ships grouping like that. Immediately throws you into the action.
Vadic remains a pretty one-dimensional villain to me, but it’s clear Ms. Plummer is having a blast with the part. Be nice to know what she’s so angry about.
Wonderful little reunion scene in the transporter room when Worf and Raffi beam aboard. “Tart” sour mead. Just having all these characters at the same table conversing is excellent… “…use of the word ‘burgle,’ Admiral.” I love the humor they slip into the script here, so well-played. “I have gone into battle with lovers several times…”
The Genesis Device! Kirk’s body?? The Starfleet Museum! The ENT-A!! The Nerd in me is full-on dancing. I’d give up a year’s salary to tour Daystrom Station and that museum.
I’m not a fan of buzzwords, but it seems the term “fan service” is just fine with me. I’m going to be re-watching this one quite a few times. Wow…just wow. They actually Stole and Used the cloaking device from TVH BOP! “Superior Klingon technology.”
The short exchange between LaForge and Shaw was hilarious.
Riker! Oh no!! I got chills when he stepped into that hallway to fight those guards. They’ll be getting him back, pretty sure Worf made that abundantly (and eloquently) clear. Michael Dorn is doing a fantastic job this season, stellar. And now Data has multiple personalities, which is an opening for some great dialogue to come.
Upon first watch, this episode had everything for me. Nostalgia so thick you need to wade through it, humor, action, family dynamics, messages upon messages. I have no desire to pick this one apart in the least, just planning on enjoying it several more times.
Oh my, they snatched up Deanna. More chills.
Well done, writers, cast and crew. Well done. This episode was some masterful, classic work, and will be remembered by this fan as one of the best episodes in ALL of Trek.
Agreed with everything you said! This is why we get along so well. ;)
I thought it was fantastic and loved nearly every minute of it. I loved all the surprise appearances we got and the biggest surprise that Lore (that we were led to believe) is actually Data afterall! OK, a bit Lore and others but when he called out Geordi’s name, I had chills. It just took me to that era in an instant. And I can’t wait to see how they play him off. I knew there was more to him and why they said so little about him and now we know there is, literally.
There were so many great moments but I think Seven talking about her Voyager family was my favorite. I love seeing that beautiful ship again in live action and in 2023 FX. It looked gorgeous as did the Defiant and the Enterprise A, the first time we’ve ever seen that one on a TV screen. And I love the theory we may see them all again and in action in the finale. We already got a small taste of it in Prodigy season finale but live action is a different animal.
And yes, so much great humor, especially with Worf and Riker. These guys are the MVPs of the season. But Shaw is definitely the biggest surprise in terms of new characters. Yes I laughed how much of a fanboy he was to Geordi. A great moment.
This episode was phenomenal and a great reminder why I’m such a Star Trek fan in the first place. I think I will be rewatching this season for years to come if it sticks to landing and I feel confident now it will.
It just took me to that era in an instant.
So true, about the whole episiode. If they DO stick the landing, as I sincerely hope they do, I’ll be first in line to pre-order the DVD of this season when it’s announced.
Second viewing behind me, will probably watch it a couple more times this weekend, can’t get enough. I literally felt like a kid again upon first viewing yesterday, and I’m 57. This is such a thrill.
Um… I’ve seen that ship on my TV quite often. Every time I pop in TFF & TUC.
So much to take in from this episode. First of all, it was fan service done correctly. Seeing all the famous ships on display was incredible. I couldn’t help but get teary eyed when Seven put Voyager on the screen. After 21 years, it was great to see her again. Now, one minor nitpick, where was her registration number? I have to wonder where the rest of the plots are heading. The Soong family of Androids are back, all in one advanced package. The moment Data recognized the group, complete with music from Nemesis was touching. Less touching was the revelation that Kirk and Picard’s bodies were stored at Daystrom. What use the changelings have for Picard’s corpse is puzzling? Matalas has done well with this season so far, so I’m going to trust the reveal will make sense. As for Jack, I think there is obviously more to the story than an inherited disease. Unless Irumodic Syndrome gives you the ability to take down four changelings at once? This episode was one of Season Three’s highlights, and it’s going to take rewatching it several times to catch everything. Well done!
I was also teary eyed and not only on that scene. The producer knows how to push the right buttons and move emotions…
Did you actually see Kirk’s body? If so I missed it. All I saw was computer renderings of his innards.
Did anyone else catch that the Genesis device was labeled Genesis II? Nice Roddenberry easter egg.
I didn’t make the connection to that pilot until I read it here, that was very cool!
“…but apparently that won’t work with newfangled ships like Titan since they are all connected to each other (despite Geordi’s three-memo objections)””
Kinda sounds like commentary on the idea of connected cars to me. I’m not exactly fond of the idea either.
Although…now that I think about it, I think we’re gonna see some of those museum pieces in action at some point.
More so I think it ties into the tail end of Prodigy also a recurring idea that perhaps the Changlings have engineerd this as a vulnerability.
Note that this theme is *really* hinting as being close to the Defense Network vulnerability the Cylons exploited in the Neo Battlestar Galactica
he’s seen the rebooted Galactica and knew the dangers of networked ships
Dunno if you’re talking about me but I’ve never seen a minute of BSG, I’m afraid.
Anybody else though “Then disconnect it! Put it into Airplane mode.” when haring that line?
I think that there’s also a nod to Lee Cole (they called for Sterbach and Cole) who was art director for Phase II, TMP and TWOK.
It would have been cool to see also the Phase-II refit version of the Enterprise.
I did not enjoy and mostly did not like this one.
I’m sorry. (Might depend on your age)
This is mostly an Homage for the “TNG” generation. Yes, Picard (special season 3) is build around Fans that has background info’s. This kind of Show would not succeed for New fans that do not know them. Also it lacks the “Heart” of the Show. So i would recommending New fans to give SNW a try. This is the best Hybrid out there in my Eye. Retro Vibes but with 2023 Tech, little bit alternative Story telling and Great Actors (i am also looking at you “Mr. Spock”, no worries) and “Space Exploration”
SNW is more for you or Prodigy and of course Lower Decks. Give them a try, perhaps you find something you like
I started watching Star Trek in 1991 through TNG.
This was fan service on overload. Means nothing to the casual fan.
The easter eggs always are, but I think casual fans know what the Enterprise-A, Bird-of-Prey, and Voyager are (maybe not the Defiant, though) and Seven gave a beautiful explanation what Voyager was to remind those few who don’t. And since Jack told the audience about “that whale thing” and Seven said it was recovered from San Francisco Bay, it should have been fairly obvious what the Bird-of-Prey/Bounty was even to casual fans. Who Lore is is certainly known to casual fans, but more discussion of what B-4 was would have just dragged down the scene, which was already dialogue heavy.
Yeah. But to me that was a real negative. I’d have preferred if they just ripped off the cloaking device from the Romulan Bird of Prey I saw there.
I’m really sorry to hear that Tiberius Mudd. I really really enjoyed this, but it’s mostly the major fanboy in me coming out lol. I’m hoping you will love the rest of the season. What has been your thoughts on the season as a whole? I can’t recall your prior thoughts on it at this moment.
I like the season overall. Feel this is the worst so far. Four the best, everything else varying degrees of good.
I loathe the current state of managed IP. It’s an industry sickness not limited to Trek, of course. The fan stroking nonsense in 306 had the opposite effect on me and I thought the — as Anthony correctly labeled it — “Who’s on first?” aspect of revealing what Vadic stole was embarrassing for everyone involved.
To fight for Moriarty’s presence only to get… that… sucked, too. But hey, at least people got to see their favorite ships! ::wank::wank::wank::
Ok thanks for the reply!
I understand your feelings because you basically cited the same reasons why you weren’t a big fan of SNW every week lol. I get it obviously, I do. I just both expected and accepted this was the direction these shows were going in general long ago. It’s literally why I predicted we would see Kirk in the first season of SNW before the show started while others (naively lol) thought the guy wouldn’t show up until the last episode of the show. It’s nostalgia and comfort food Trek rolled into one. And once we were told the entire TNG cast was coming back on Picard, I knew to strap in lol. But reading other posts here who isn’t as happy with it and think it’s too much, I can obviously see their point why they didn’t like it either.
And we totally agree on Moriarty, which I (quickly) pointed out in my review as well. I don’t really understand why he was so important to have after what we got and my biggest negative in the episode.
My guess is Moriarty was added solely for inclusion in the trailer. That way they could have a big shock return character without spoiling Ro Laren, or whoever else might show up.
They spoiled Seven’s return in Season 1 in that early trailer because they wanted that “wow” moment, so they wanted something to punch up for marketing that wouldn’t ruin the real surprises.
Yeah but Seven was actually part of the show, she wasn’t just there for 30 seconds and then gone after that. It feels like Moriarty was there because clearly Matalas like the character but I was hoping he would be there for a real reason the same way Ro was, even if it was just for an episode.
But it’s not a big deal of course, but it was really the only negative I had in the episode. And yes some of us may have gotten carried away without our theories lol.
Exactly, that’s my point. They stuck him in for 30 seconds so they could show him in the marketing and get a big “wow” from the fandom. You have to admit, it caused a lot of buzz at the time, and that’s the point of a trailer.
I wasn’t even thinking of SNW when watching the episode, only thinking about the ST:P-s3 up to this point. I thought the first five episodes of ST:P-s3 managed to walk the line between useful callbacks and empty calories for Real Fans. Everything at Daystrom Station just felt like the writers going “Aw sh**, how do we pad out this story? Uhhh, buhhh what if Moriarty pulled a gun on them and the whole thing felt like a Star Trekified haunted house? Oh oh! A Klingon so a tribble! That’s funny — FOR THE FANS. And what about Kirk’s corpse?! I mean, after all, that’s all we’re doing at this point — resuscitating IP corpses, right?”
They spend several episodes building up Daystrom and then all we get is an episode of Lower Decks about it. Just felt really, truly stupid, because at least in Lower Decks they know how to tell some jokes. And maybe the Daystrom stuff was not as bad as the worst segments/ideas of season two (and there were a great many — that was one of the worst seasons of TV ever made), and it was certainly the “best” of the three attempts at doing a heist episode in Picard, but it just bothered me as I was watching — no quiet reflection or preconceptions needed. Just sweaty ideas poorly executed. A far cry from the clever deployment of Ro Laren last week.
And the family drama stuff was very surfacey. I thought the Irumodic Syndrome bit was actually better than the LaForge family drama IF ONLY because we’ve been able to see more of that relationship rather than have it told to us in fast paced exposition (Sidney tells Geordi why she always did what she did and it just fell flat because it was telling over showing and it just didn’t feel real); I bought Geordi’s anger/resentment/fear more than Sidney’s reluctance and resentment and I don’t think it should’ve been so cut and dried. So, given the first drafty nature of the LaForge Family drama, the stupidity of the Daystrom segment, and the hilariously bad DataloreB4 reactivation scene at the end and I just found much more to dislike and even feel embarrassed having watched than I liked.
I definitely get a lot of your points. I will say I didn’t really think the build up to Daystrom station as that important. I mean I knew it was going to lead to whatever the big bad weapon the Changelings were looking for, but that’s how I only looked at it. I didn’t think it would be anything that interesting in itself, not until the words Section 31 was uttered by Worf and then I realized OK this is something big lol.
In other words I didn’t really expect any big easter eggs like what we got. I certainly didn’t expect any remains of former iconic captains or anything. BTW, I watched a video review on YouTube and they pointed out Archer’s remains are there too, just harder to see. What are the freaks doing with these people lol. So I get your point there but yes the fanboy in me didn’t mind it.
The Data stuff really took me by surprise. I assumed, like others, he would be in Daystrom station, but I thought he was going to be the weapon they were looking for. So it was surprise A. it was actually Data (or as close as you can get) and B. Picard’s old body was the real weapon they wanted. Yes I will admit, it did come off a little clunky how they revealed it, but the reveal was still a big one.
We half agree on the Geordi family stuff. I think due to time, of course, they had to rush through that a little more than I liked, kind of like what happened with Ro last week. Geordi just kind of showed up angry and twenty minutes later it was over and now he’s 100% in. And while I understood why he was upset about what Picard was doing and having his daughter involved, it did ring a little hollow because he knows the second you sign up for Starfleet you’re going to get into all kinds of wacky shit. Every week, you don’t know what is going to happen. One minute you are time traveling to New York 1945, the next week you’re encountering the Borg. If you’re really unlucky, you’re doing both at the same time lol. I can understand him being angry but it felt a little over the top since she’s not some civilian either.
I loved the Seven and ship scenes. That was great to me. I just smiled so wide when I saw it and when Voyager came up at the end. But yeah I know for others it was probably all a bit too much. But as I been saying, this is stuff I just expect to see at this point. As you noted it’s why LDS exists now, but all these shows are doing their best to bring as much nostalgia bait as possible.
Some are a slightly more nuance with it like DIS and I will say PRO actually. It’s obviously there but it’s not made SO obvious like the other shows. But PIC, SNW and LDS it’s just been nostalgia bait on top of nostalgia bait. At least PIC hasn’t gone back and remade an entire classic TNG episode beat by beat…but we still got four more episodes to go. ;)
Posting my review shortly! Spoiler alert: I agree with @Tiberius Mudd.
I didn’t enjoy it but didn’t hate it either. It was serviceable and moved the story forward. That’s about it from my perspective. Nothing really significant beyond that for me.
It’s pretty clear why Section 31 would want Picard’s human corpse: there was something left from the Borg in it he didn’t know about. They discovered it and then began studying it. Whatever was in Picard was passed on to Jack. That’s why the Changelings want Picard’s human body and Jack. The fact that the First Contact theme is in the show’s theme is no accident.
Very well could be, but might I point out that the FC theme was also used last season in a few scenes.
And in Lower Decks
I also don’t think anything is “pretty clear” at this point. I saw a lot people making gross assumptions about the plot after the first couple of episodes that were WAY off base, yet were couched as certainties, and everyone was obtuse for not seeing it… made me laugh.
Yeah it’s funny how all the RIKER IS A CHANGELING theories died an episode later. ;)
The First Contact theme has kind of been used as the basis for the TNG “family” theme for a long while now
I think it is clear he was in some ways compromised by the Borg. Remember in First Contact the Borg were able to communicate with him in their attempt to get Data.
I don’t think they were necessarily trying to get Data..he just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
The level of the Borgs influence on Picard isn’t clear post BOBW. The only time we have any idea that he can “hear them” was in FC, at no point in TNG post BOBW when they encounter the Borg (Hugh, Lore’s borg, etc) its never ever mentioned of him being able to hear them or anything..it was just a movie point.
In FC the Borg had no real interest in Data beyond cracking the computer code. I don’t think they see Data as perfection because the Borg want a mixture of biology and machine which is what transhumanism is, a combination of the two.
It’s literally why the Borg Queen gave Data skin, to give him the gift of feeling more human in a way he couldn’t feel as an android.
Well I think the objective was to get his emotion chip at the time. This was even alluded to in the FC directors comments.
That being said is it clear that the Borg did not find what they were looking for with Data and wanted something better.
Sure enough there is Picard wanting androids that are more, building an evacuation fleet out of pseudo AI (are they slaves, or just robots) in an odd pursuit.
I thought they might be trying to create a human-shapeshifter hybrid, and Jack was a protoype for this project.
Irumodic syndrome never caused the symptoms we saw Jack experiencing. Something more is clearly happening with him.
My guess as to why they want Picard’s body. They want to control Locutus that day to show the treachery of Picard to all of Starfleet when he summons the Borg
“You see, Picard was a Borg all along and you trusted him! He’s just a sleeper agent.”
So the one behind all this is also a survivor of Wolf 359, but because of his power, he could now be an admiral or higher. or have entered into a conspiracy with other admirals of other races who lost loved ones dear to them that day. Starfleet is not just made up of the human race, right?
Maybe there are even some Vulcans who have fallen into deep hatred since that day.
But for the future, Wolf 359 should not be used so often. It’s getting stale (it’s the Boomer’s fault danger).
(Used DeepL for translation)
I’m also curious as to how the Bounty‘s cloaking device would’ve reactivated at the bottom of San Francisco Bay, since the ship’s power was drained by the whale probe, plus the whole being underwater thing (unless Klingon electronics can withstanding submerging).
Perhaps some Fresh Water (Drinkable) Water bubble protected it all along, so it never came into contact with Salty Water corrosion
or like the lakes in Canada conservation Old Ships that very good over these many Years
Water and electricity still don’t mix well unless the electronics in question are designed to be submerged (using mineral water to cool computer components was a thing for a while). Also the Bering Sea water would be salt, as would the water in San Fran Bay (nominally).
Well, Space Ships are also Watertight if they are also Airtight in Space. The difference is just the Water Pressure. So let alone the passive Armor and tightness can keep it for very long conserved
In the Movie they could get out, but perhaps Emergency sealed Doors done their Job until they found her
It’s sci-fi tech. It worked underwater because they say it did.
Yeah, this. It’s a tiny detail that thus doesn’t bother me at all.
Sometimes you make sense.
Yeah, I kinda let that rationalization stand when the Starship Enterprise because the Submarine Enterprise in STID. The less you think about it, the better.
Yep, also have to agree there.
Imma go with Scotty got it working again instead.
An errant flounder accidentally bumped into it, turning it on…
Considering flounders are bottom dwellers, that makes perfect sense.
That’s a good question but I was so put off by the TVH reference that I never bothered to think too hard about it. Now that you mention it that is a weird thing. But the show has been pretty decent thus far to me it will take more than a poor TVH reference to ruin it.
The response to this show has shown me that Trek fandom has sailed into the Berman era, because the tolerance for nostalgia and ‘memberberries’ is off the charts. As is the intolerance of anything new or innovative. I’ll cherish the “original-berries,’ because I’m trying as hard as possible to pretend this show isn’t pandering with the desperation of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker at the end of a telethon.
Kind of relieved to see this reaction. While I’m certainly not as harsh on it as you, i’m leaning more towards this than the overwhelming positivity. It worked for me, but the constant fan wankery this episode was a bit too much for me.
Not only the Berman era but also the TOS-movie-era.
Looks like Matalas tries out what Berman was afraid of.
You never saw the NCC-1701A in the Berman-era. Now it finally happened.
And by the way Matalas implied how some movies should have been done.
The Enterprise-A should have been in Generations and have Kirk and Picard battling in space.
The Enterprise-A and D in battle? Now it seems possible.
Shinzon in Nemesis should have been played by Patrick Stewart. Now we are gonna see maybe 2 Picards.
And the movie after Nemesis which was never made should have been a crossover of TNG/DS9/VOY. Also this seems coming closer now.
I think you’re right: Zombie Locutus is coming to a living room near you.
That was ostensibly what the writers wanted to do for Generations, but they realized they couldn’t without one crew looking like the bad guy (according to the Generations article on Memory Alpha, anyway).
I have come to regard all of the modern era Trek shows as little more than big budget fan fiction. The writing quality dips below the level of average fan fiction often enough that I feel this attitude is warranted.
When they play too many fan service notes (look, another ship you recognize! And now we’re bringing back this character you know!), I just shrug and tell myself, “well, it is a fan-made production, after all. It’s not great writing, but it’s what happens when amateurs play in this familiar universe.”
Similarly, I also regard the new shows as on par with the current batch of IDW comics. Again, the consistency and quality of the writing is roughly the same. Occasionally the comics have these shows beat when it comes to storytelling.
It’s difficult to let go of wanting ‘canonical,’ televised Trek to make logical sense, be written with a commitment to original storytelling, and not simply resurrect or retread the same old people and things we’ve seen before. But I have to let go, because what we are continually getting from this franchise is… not any of that. (By the way there’s another “Star” franchise that is suffering from memberberries addiction with many of its new shows.)
So as MST3K taught us, remember that it’s just a show and you really should relax. I tell myself to enjoy the good bits (and there are frequently good bits in Picard and the other shows, it’s not all bad) and let the rest go. When I want to watch truly great, original Trek episodes the old classic shows are—fortunately—still there to rewatch.
Maybe some day we’ll get back to that level of quality TV. Strange New Worlds has shown potential in its first season. If only it wasn’t chock-full of re-cast and reimagined characters we already know.
“On the next episode of, ‘Remember this guy!?..”
Spot on. There’s also the market research perspective/demands imposed by the studio. TV is a gross business and every so often an episode of television comes along to remind you just how gross it can get.
Exactly! This is just Hollywood in general today and big franchises like Star Trek and Star Wars are a symptom of that. And a big reason is because all these new shows are behind a pay wall and you have to find a way to excite the base. The fact there is so much Star Trek and Star Wars on now is all feeding into the same thing, people want nostalgia and the studio is willing to feed as much of it as they can.
But to me, this has been the case since 2009 frankly with the Kelvin movies. And the with new Star Trek shows started it once Pike showed up on Discovery and then fans begged for a Pike show because yeah, nostalgia. Same reason why there was so much fanfare over the Picard announcement. He in himself was already a huge draw but a complete TNG reunion is what most fans really wanted and Paramount knew that, they just had to convince Stewart and now they finally got it to huge applause. As for SNW, that seemed just as obvious that too was just going to feel more like a TOS rehash, especially once we learned none of the other Cage characters were showing up and basically just replaced them with more TOS characters people knew and love while just keeping Pike and Number One as the sole holdovers from that pilot. Now we have both Kirks on the show lol.
For me though, I’m enjoying it. Yes partly because it’s great to see characters like Picard, Seven, Spock and Janeway again, but I do think the shows have been getting generally better as well. I’m still shocked Prodigy, the kid’s show, is my favorite out of all of them because while it too is definitely drowning in nostalgia, it still manages to feel a bit different in itself. But ironically it’s able to get away with being as nostalgic as possible because the point is to get new and younger fans steeped into the Star Trek universe as possible and that means more legacy characters. So it’s not a shock that show will be more Voyager focused next season but focused on the entire history of that universe because that’s the point. They want the new fans to eventually watch Voyager and all the other old shows.
End of the day this is about selling the old as the new or we wouldn’t have so many old characters running these shows; especially as they claim they want ‘new’ fans as well.
Hard to find fault in this take. I will say that I have a tougher time finding much “good” in these new Trek productions. The season of Picard has the rest beat by a long shot. As flawed as it is.
Nice way to work a Jim and Tammy Faye reference there. We’re all going to hell, anyway….
As someone who still loves the Berman era religiously, I’m all for it! ;D
But to me, all the new shows minus Discovery has been nothing but ‘memberberries’ and basically just a big recall to that era from Picard to Prodigy IMO. Lower Decks is the most Berman era you can get in a show, which is why I’m not surprised why some fans love it so much. You take away the jokes, it’s no different than watching an episode of TNG or VOY.
Even SNW feels like watching TNG, VOY or ENT because it’s formatted more like those shows even if it takes place in the TOS era. There isn’t a single episode of SNW that can’t fit comfortably with the other 90s shows, especially being episodic again like those mostly were.
Obviously Picard season 3 feels the most like it since they are really turning up the TNG nostalgia but these shows have been doing nostalgia the second Pike showed up on Discovery and it’s only been getting bigger from that point on IMO.
I have pointed out over 60 legacy characters have now showed up on these new shows so far and they keep promising more every season. They know where their bread is buttered and they see the enthusiastic reactions all of it brings; especially this season.
Yeah, people love comfort food. Trek as a brand is comfort food in itself obviously and people just love the familiar. Even though I’m not a huge fan of Discovery, placing it in the 32nd century is really the only show that is doing something completely new and different from the others…and now it’s cancelled.
So I wouldn’t be shocked to see more Berman era shows and formats because Paramount wants subscribers and there are millions of fans out there who grew up with those shows and excited to see so many of these actors and story lines back. Everywhere I go, that’s what I constantly see, especially on Reddit, Facebook and YouTube.
About Data/B4/Lore/Dal “Lore” Appearance Android
Dr. Crusher should be his Archenemy. Because only Data know that he teaches her how to deactivate himself. You know this Episode? So Crusher (perhaps still) knows how to Shut Down the Android without breaking him (Him not It out of respect of the Actor)
This isn’t an original Soong android (IE B4, Lore and Data). This is a new synth that Alton Soong built post S1 of Picard.
Ah the Prototype of current Picard?. Intressting
More like the next follow on to the synth body Picard has
Riker also found out where Data’s off switch was when he was researching his schematics in Measure of a Man.
A couple of scenes I liked. Seven seeing Voyager again was sweet. But this episode pretty well encapsulated everything I dislike about modern franchises.
Interested to hear you elaborate on that.
I have been pretty negative on Engadget’s reviews of the season so far, but his post episode six critique resonated a lot with me today.
Mostly it was the references. I can handle a few, especially when they’re artfully done, but this was like a sweaty carnival barker getting in my face, poking and prodding me to step into his tent of Star Trek Trivia. I want the writer to tell me a story, not a list of things he saw on the Memory-Alpha wiki.
Also, none of the family concerns worked for me. It felt like daytime soap opera stuff. Not to an offensive degree, just kind of average and dull.
Exactly about the LaForges. It wasn’t offensive. Just tired. I might care more about it if I felt Geordi was a decent character to begin with. But Geordi was a boring guy and so far it seems his daughters are boring too.
As for franchises, I dislike the fact they can’t seem to move beyond their own iconography. They’re often tripping over it, as we see in this episode.
Maybe an odd criticism to make for this season, as it’s largely a reunion, I grant that. But there is a limit. Do Kirk and the TOS movies need to figure into this? Nah, not really. TNG is iconic enough to stand on its own.
I read Daniel Cooper’s review after I read your comment. I agree with him that Star Trek shrinks its storytelling universe when it shows what we saw at Daystrom and the museum. I’d rather have seen the bodies of 100 starship captains at Daystrom and parts saved from 500 starships of significance at the museum. Show us things that suggest Starfleet is too busy for us to ever completely see.
Thanks for pointing out that review.
I agree. This season had been — for me, anyway — just barely staying on this side of dramatically relevant when it came to callbacks, homages, “fan service.” This episode was a bloated corpse of anti-drama and kewl.
Also, it’s confusing if you haven’t seen every episode of Star Trek. Why aren’t these two elements – old or secret weapons and old ships – not in the same place? They basically should be. I mean, they even stole the cloaking device from the museum.
It was fun and shocking this way, but…
Shaw is about to learn something else he hadn’t realized before: he’s not at the head of the line when it comes to “Starfleet Officers Who HATE Locutus”….and no, Ben Sisko isn’t at the head either. Shaw gave the guy at the head of the line time to work on his bullshit story.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention that M510 is an homage to the actual Richard Daystrom!
My guess is it’s not a specific homage, but a carry-over: computer intelligences at Daystrom, perhaps, are given the “M-” designation. Thus, this new synth construct is the 510th one at the institute.
Wasn’t the “M” for “Multitronics”, the successor to Daystrom’s revolutionary Duotronics? M-1 through 4 were not successful, and all that.
I keep wondering what is in Docking Bay 12. It was mentioned and never brought back up.
With the Generations references I wonder if Geordi has the D’s saucer hiding in there getting secretly fixed up. They DID say we were getting multiple Enterprises after all.
Guessing that Docking Bay 12 is inside or somewhere else? A Galaxy class saucer is quite larger than say a Constitution or Intrepid class. Not easy to hide.
The D’s saucer is about the same size as the whole Enterprise-A. It would easily fit inside the big mushroom starbase, along with a dozen other ships.
It depends on which starbase this is. If this is the original Earth Station, the Galaxy class wouldn’t fit in any of the visible doors.
If this is the same size as the one seen in TNG (which was just a re-use of the TSFS/TVH/TUC etc model) then yeah…the D’s saucer is inside no problem
I’m just going by what I see in the episode, and how big the other ships look in relation to the meatiest part of the starbase.
My thinking as well. It’ll be pulled out of mothballs in the finale. Which is fine, because this is a TNG reunion. But… My only fear is that they’ll go “all-star Armada” — Worf will command the Defiant, Seven will captain Voyager, Picard on the Ent-D, and then… sigh… a clone of Kirk on the Enterprise-A.
If they want to be clever though, it could be the recently decommissioned Enterprise-F, which we know sees action later on, from the trailers.
As for Matalas’ “multiple Enterprises” comment, we’re already now guaranteed two: the A and the F. That could be it, potentially.
The end credits do show those ships flying around the space dock. At first I thought they were flying around the museum, but it looks like the new space dock instead. But maybe that is just for Frontier Day.
A clone of Kirk? There still is the mobile emitter and maybe a holodeck-version of Kirk…
If it’s a holo-Kirk played by Paul Wesley, I could live with it!
I suspect we’re gonna see the E-F turn into shrapnel as a grand gesture.
Now that I think about it, the early decommissioning of the F could be because of the upgrades to integrated starships, orchestrated by Changelings who had infiltrated Starfleet
Meaning, the Ent-F might use the older tech, and could be pulled out in a final battle against the Changelings.
The “compromised computer systems” does sound a bit like a cover. Just..put in new computer cores FFS.
And maybe the older ships (1701-A, Voyager, Defiant, Excelsior) will be deployed against the changelings for the same reason. I know you disagree, but personally I think that would be fantastic…
For me, that just starts to border on fan fiction written by a middle schooler, is all.
It was curiously missing from the outer display ring. I’m hoping we see it.
As a side note, didn’t they say they reconstructed the TNG bridge set?
What I am curious on, if I a remembering correctly, is if the Enterprise D bridge is going to be as we saw it in TNG..or the Generations refit version.
They could easily explain away the TNG version being back as the bridge was in a sorry state after the crash on Veridian III
LeVar Burton commented he filmed on a rebuilt E-D Bridge set
I’m glad you mentioned that because I didn’t want to post it for fear of potential spoilers. I believe Matalas had responded to that saying “it’s not what you think” though that easily could have been deflection after LeVar leaked out a major spoiler…
That was what Burton intimated in an interview (with this very site IIRC). He said something about shooting on a reconstructed bridge for about 3 days (I THINK). He also said it didn’t quite look right, something about the ramps… I had thought he was referring to some kind of Holodeck or flashback sequence but now I’m not sure.
As far as recreations of the D bridge, though, I know TOS Set Tour is working on theirs, but I don’t think they’re in any shape to be filmed on. Only other one I know of is the one that was salvaged from Star Trek The Experience…but IIRC the guy who owns it has some…unsavory allegations against him so I don’t know if Paramount would’ve been willing to work with him.
Patrick Stewart said at CC that we would see multiple Enterprises which I think at the time people assumed it meant we would be aboard a few of them. We finally got glances of two of them in this episode, the NX-01 refit and Enterprise A, but we also know the Enterprise F is on the show. But it seems obvious now they will be boarding at least one of them which Burton said would be the D. But I wouldn’t be shocked if some of the characters ended up on an Enterprise G in the final episode as well since the F will be retired and the Titan may not make out of this alive.
Did anyone notice the NX-01 refit???! She was there! Would have loved a close up of it for sure. So happy 1701-A showed up. Teared up during that scene big time.
Yep, I saw it. We knew she was there because Troi mentioned having been on it at the museum in “These are the voyages..”
The fact her refit is now hard-canon is nice.
Finally one big positive about TATV lol.
But she never mentioned it as having been refitted.
Maybe the NX-01 refit will be seen later again…
It was MUCH harder to see in the screeners, and for a while I was angry it wasn’t in the episode. After a bunch of rewatches I finally spotted it, and the fact that they gave it the secondary hull is *chefs kiss*
Maybe they are holding back the NX-01 for a later appearance to show her full in action. So that glimps would just serve as an appetizer.
I didn’t notice it when I watched it but several people pointed it out to me on Reddit and threw a link to the screen shot. It was glorious to see and I wish they highlighted it like the other ships, but I have a feeling we’re going to see her up close in the last few episodes.
If we get to see the refit up close or in any kind of action I do believe tears will be in my eyes. Love the ship and series
In that case, I’m crossing my fingers now. I too really want to see the NX-01 up close and personal. :)
I did not see it. I would have really loved to see the original version for just nostalgia reasons. But I do realize I read once that there was talk of adding a secondary hull to the existing NX-01 had there been a season 5. But every time I looked at the drawings of it I never liked what I saw. So a part of me is happy we never saw it. And here, I’m kinda happy I missed it. I feel like the next evolution of Star Ships should have added one, not a refit of the NX-01.
Soooo maaaany eastereggs which won’t be all noticed the first time.
They want those borg nano probes in the Picard, I’d suspect the face vadic communicates with to ultimately be the borg queen; I’m also suspecting that borg nano probes are behind the evolution of our changeling friends.
So a Borg civil war, maybe going back to the rogue Borg faction from Voyager? Because we saw that Jurati became “a” Borg Queen and Shaw mentioned the “real borg are still out there”
I originally thought the Borg Nanoprobes are behind what was going on with Jack. That he inherited them, or some mutated variant of them, genetically through his father. Not sure that’s what’s going on at this point.
LOL the face is PIcard’s reanimated corpse and he wants his son back.
Face could be Locutus reanimated
I think tying in with the previous seasons Picard is now exactly what the Borg want – a full cybernetic lifeform without any of the need for organic limitations/assimilation. Indeed Picard almost seems to have been working for the Borg in trying to develop that tech, maybe inadvertantly. Now as Robo-Picard he is free of Borg interference, they need the old Picard/Locutus back.
The Changlings just end up being the middle man, a good irony would be the Borg getting the tech only to then kill the Changlings since they aren’t needed anymore. Would make a good return to the Borg being an evil unimind.
I admit I was surprised every minute of this episode up to the last moment. I enjoyed most of it. I loved seeing Enterprise-A. I wish there was more visibility of ships whose stories we do not know. Most of all, I really hope none of those ships goes into battle. Keep to the museum intact – it’s such a great idea!
Questions: If the Changelings have Picard’s human corpse, why do they need him alive? For fans of TNG who have come back for season 3, do they have any idea of what this corpse is? Who Alton Soong was? Will they understand this?
Realization: So, this series – all three seasons – had to have been sketched out long before TM got involved.
Sadness: as others have mentioned, isnt it pretty easy to see that Elnor should have had many of Worf’s scenes? Isn’t it also true that Riker & Troi are taking over an arc intended for Rios and his 20th Century Lady?
Nevertheless I admire the dedication to executing this change of direction and deftness of the produced episodes.
I had a thought this morning and I hope I am wrong, echoing FDR: “A Kirk in every timeline.”
I am also sad that everything is now “skeleton” crew. Is this an adaption for Covid? I wish they were not sooooo alone. It doesn’t give me the feels. Where was my excellent Titan crew?
One note: they don’t need Picard alive. They need Jack alive. And no, I don’t think all three seasons were mapped out at all. Matalas has said he came up with the idea for S3 and had to sell the network and Patrick Stewart on doing a TNG reunion.
Yes, but wasn’tthis pitch likely before they completed season 1?
No. I don’t believe Matalas was hired until after Season 1 was completed, and the mapping out of S3 was entirely Matalas. Patrick Stewart early on was also adamant that he not do a reunion of TNG.
I think all they knew was they wanted to do three seasons, and it was Matalas who proposed what we’re seeing now, during early production on Season 2.
That’s the official word.
However, I think this was a trilogy that did have a map. That was rewritten after Chambon left – but many elements remained as part of Matalas pitch. And probably all the other pitches they heard.
I’ve never heard anyone say that all three stories were mapped out in 2018-19. That sounds like pure speculation to me. I don’t see why it’s hard to imagine Matalas working in elements from 1&2 into the story organically after the fact.
I am speculating.
Perhaps someone here knows more about how and when they decided to shoot season 2 & 3 together. Even how and why to tie in and complete Wesley’s story in Season 2.
Really, in someone’s imagination (sketches and plans) I am sure that Season 2 was the perfect lead up to whatever comes in the next four episodes. That’s not to say TM didn’t cross out that sketch – but… we shall find out why the corpse is so important when we were basically told to forget about it.
I believe the only reason there was filming overlap was because Covid delayed Season 2 filming by months.
I’m starting to think maybe it was mapped out… that you had Picard obsessing about AI for the Borg being manipulated by the Borg nanoprobes. Remember in FC he was listening to the hive mind in their attempt to get Data. This could be an extension.
Now you have it where Picard has the key to cybernetic life totally supplanting organics. Remember the Borg assimilate organic life not because they want it, but because they see it as the only way to innovate. Similar to V’ger needing the “creator” to move on.
The irony – they get the changlings to deliver the tech to destroy the Federation, yet in the process give the Borg what they need to also want to destroy the Dominion.
You’d have Picard and the Ent-A vs. Locutus and an AI fleet in the end battle which would just be crazy!!
I’m likely to be in the minority here, but this is the episode to skip. The level of fan service here was like drinking from a fire hose. Strip away the trip down memory lane, and you have an episode about twenty minutes long. Geordi was portrayed as pretty anal retentive, and Troi has gone from nagging wife to damsel in distress. I understand entirely why she’s not out on the promotional trail, she’s been nothing but a caricature so far.
I liked the Geordi stuff a lot, his scenes with Picard, and particularly his argument with Sydney were excellent. But I agree, the fan service was too much, and largely unnecessary, even if it did lead to a nice character moment for Seven. And I totally agree its the weakest of the bunch.
It felt contrived, actually. His kids grew up, enlisted in the service, and got ship assignments. He survived the Dominion War, knowing that a few bazillion members of Starfleet got blown to bits in that conflict…..and now, suddenly, he’s concerned about the adult kiddos being in harms way? To the point where he’s willing to extort a duty assignment change for his kids from a retired admiral in exchange for his help?
Oh, and Troi’s spiral into the abyss continues. In addition to nagging wife, she’s a damsel in distress, too.
The Geordi stuff felt perfectly natural to me. Becoming a parent can often change people in ways you don’t expect. I’m fine with that, in fact, I kind of like it.
As for damsel in distress, that’s sadly been a problem for almost all of the returning women characters this season, from Beverly (saved by Picard) to Raffi (saved by Worf).
Differences of opinions on LaForge are allowed. No worries.
Troi hasn’t been more then caricature this season. At least to this point, she could have been cut entirely, and not been missed.
She should have been there from the start. It would have been a lot better for everyone, especially since we wouldn’t have taken so many episodes for it to become clear that Shaw was negatively triggered to absolute h e double hockey sticks.
I disagree. I think the best thing this season has done is to start out with everyone far apart, and one by one bring them together. Leaving Troi out so far is not the problem, it’s what they’ve done to this point.
Though i’m not willing to prejudge since there’s still four episodes left, the valid grievance is that when she did show up, it wasn’t anything worthwhile, and/or took away her agency, something made worse by the fact that its a woman character.
I’m pissed off about that a lot. Don’t get me wrong. Completely and utterly pissed off.
I’m not willing to condemn their role for her until we see the rest of the season. To do so now would be short-sighted at best, downright stupid at worst. For all we know she has a critical role to play in the back half.
The problem with this take is the fact that if you were to actually skip this episode..you’d be more or less screwed with what comes after. You could reasonably have skipped episode 2, for example..but this is kind of a hinge point.
My favorite part of Troi’s appearance was that she’s dressed for the adventure. No attempt to convey that Vadic captured her suddenly. Just “put Marina in what she’ll be wearing the rest of the way.
Anyway, yeah. Pretty DOA episode. A shame. The Seven beat was nice, but it was sandwiched between two thoughts: “why’s everybody just sitting around when there’s a dumb 1 hour ticking clock” and “why do they have to make everybody dumb to make Jack shine?”
“Why do they make everybody dumb to make Jack shine?”
They gave that a rest last week when he was in peak hallucinations and z John Wick mode so they had to double down this time.
Or you could skip Phil’s trolling instead and watch a very enjoyable episode.
Though I don’t agree with his opinion entirely, that’s certainly NOT trolling. People need to stop throwing that word around.
I think they needed this episode somewhere in the season to satisfy the reunion cravings of the Berman-era curmudgeon fans who have been nothing but negative since 2016.
I even found the writing decent. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as I might have, taking it as what it was intended to be. It just seemed the execution, the production was decidedly off in too many places.
It had two major faults in my view.
– first, it was back to back against another episode that was profoundly driven by callbacks to Berman-era unresolved elements – Ro’s relationship with Picard & a pervasive Changeling takeover.
– second, the director for this block of episodes 5 & 6 Dan Liu, just isn’t getting the pacing or performances that Frakes did and it shows. There’s an unpolished dimension to many of the performances, or just something else that’s off.
It was noticeable even in episode 5 as the rest of the episode didn’t work as well as the Picard-Ro scenes. That scene was even somewhat off as there were overtones in the interaction, not originating from the writing or past TNG episodes, that some newcomers read as a history that went beyond the appropriate bounds of mentor-mentee.
Liu directed the Gorn episode Memento Mori for SNW, which was much better. (It’s a favourite of mine if not many others here.) Just doesn’t seem to have been the right fit for this show.
Bottom line: two episodes that feel off, weren’t effectively directed for this cast or show, built on character beats and plot points deeply rooted in legacy that may not resonate with a new audience.
Absolutely agreed about the directing of this episode. In fact while watching I was constantly thinking that Frakes should have directed this episode. Or heck why don’t they get one of the other guys to direct? Dorn and Levar Burton directed previous Trek episodes or guys like Roxann Dawson or Robert Duncan Mcneill.
Honestly it would have been a lot better if they grabbed Riker’s daughter.
So many complaints about fan service…..to each their own I suppose.
There’s a stark difference between fan service a la a “remember when” (intended to elevate poor screenwriting) vs. a strong script which respects the history, characters, and understands the rules of its own universe. This episode is the latter and the best part is, it actually serves the story. What a beautifully written episode full of character growth and plot development which respected the history of the franchise. It’s even doing a pretty good job of trying to redeem some poorly received plot points from the prior two seasons – mainly Robo-Picard.
Charting new territory is perfectly fine, but when well established franchises try to constantly re-invent the wheel, they risk becoming something unfamiliar – basically a (Franchise) In Name Only product. There’s a balance.
For some people there is no middle ground..either post Nemesis Trek is “tired fan service” or “completely disconnected from the Trek universe”.
People weren’t kind to TNG at first..but the 80’s only had fan magazines to rant in. The internet and discussion boards were in its infancy at the end of TNG and were still quite secluded for the end of DS9 and Voyager.
I shudder to think of how TNG S1 and S2 would have been savaged on these comment sections were it today..TNG had so many filler episodes and some were just utterly nonsensical.
Now people would be throwing a fit over Relics, Unification, etc Adm McCoy being in Farpoint.
The difference is that TNG kept its references few and far between. Remember when Picard said Khan’s name in that one episode? The old musclehead wasn’t even the topic of the episode. His name was simply used in passing, along with Hitler, to illustrate a point about interfering with past events.
That’s how I prefer it, when they restrain themselves, so that when they do make a reference it feels special. Otherwise, it’s like watching Star Trek fans who somehow ended up in their favorite franchise and will now indulge in pointing to their favorite iconic ships from their favorite iconic TV shows and talking about them for five minutes. It not only makes the universe feel small but breaks the fourth wall for me.
Yes, at the beginning, but I always remind people that changed once DS9 and VOY showed up and it was a ton of crossovers and references from those shows on. People always cite the early days of TNG, but then ignore the other tens years when Trek was on and everything was fair game after that.
As an example, these are the shows that either referenced or crossed over with other shows from TNG through VOY.
TNG (including movies) referenced/crossover TOS, DS9 and VOY.
DS9 referenced/crossover TOS, TNG and VOY.
VOY referenced/crossover TOS, TNG and DS9.
They all did it, countless times in fact. ENT was the show that did it the least for obvious reasons but even that show still managed to bring in several TNG characters. And of course we can’t forget season four had the biggest fan praise because it was basically fan service to TOS, which is a big reason why fans didn’t like it in the beginning, because it wasn’t doing enough of that.
Now all that said, yes the new shows are definitely doing it more, much more lol. And yeah I am sick to death of the Khan and Kobayashi Maru references at this point. The Khan stuff has gotten so out of hand, we now have a descendant aboard the Enterprise on SNW (sigh).
So I will admit, the older shows was a bit nuanced with this stuff at times but it was definitely there. Kirk and Spock was name dropped many times on DS9 for example. And it’s funny how people see this stuff, because I remember hardcore TOS fans being upset with TNG because they didn’t mention TOS enough lol. I remember reading someone taking it as a slam when Riker mentioned Kirk’s name in a casual way in The Naked Now because he didn’t say it with any kind of praise but just as another Starfleet officer in a bygone era. So you can never win.
Sure they all did it. “Few and far between” are the operative words here. When it becomes nostalgia overload, I check out from the story. They were fairly restrained up to this episode, and I thought the previous five were fine in that regard.
They could’ve at least kept the nostalgia to TNG. I think that would’ve been better. Moriarty was enough. Unless they’ve snagged William Shatner for a role this season, I don’t see the need in the shout outs to TOS.
It’s easier to do that when you have 25 episodes a year and not 10. That’s really the problem. And I think in this case, this is the final season of Picard so Matalas wanted to present a season that celebrates not just TNG, but classic Star Trek as a whole. What’s interesting is there is a lot of nods to DS9, VOY, TOS, etc but so far not a single nod to any of the new shows. It is a bit odd lol.
And I don’t have an issue to nods to any show because it all exists in the same universe. That’s how shared universes work, especially today. And that’s another thing, crossovers wasn’t as big like it was in the Berman era like today. Look at Star Wars, those shows are crossing into each other just as much today and fans are eating it up.
Yeah, they are, and I’m not a fan of it. Frankly, I think shared universes, at least the way they’re done now, create a lot of lazy writing.
OK, fair enough!
OK.. There is a 5th one I did not even remember. Yes, when the references are very limited so that when one is made it is cool and special for fans. When TNG did it I actually got a kick out of it. But if they did it every other episode my thoughts would have been, “enough already!”.
But most people are loving this season, let’s not buried the lead here. You’re always going to have contrarians and detractors, especially on the internet. But the irony to me is this season of Picard has actually convinced a lot of the NuTrek haters that NuTrek can actually be good. It’s bizarre to go to YouTube and watch former haters like RMB, The Red Letter Media guys, Critical Drinker, Dave Cullen and all these others now praising this show. It’s really uncanny, especially since many of them, Burnett especially, has been railing against all of it since 2009.
Oddly, this is probably the most positive I’ve seen fans in decades lol.
Depends on which fans Tiger2.
After the past two episodes, I’m definitely putting this season behind SNW season one, and you know I don’t love even that uncritically.
I am however willing to shell out for the 4K steel book and the soundtrack CD for SNW. Unless this picks up for me, or my spouse really wants it, I don’t see us getting the steel book for Picard season 3.
Well you’re not a NuTrek hater lol. I was specifically talking about them mostly because I was citing the irony over Phantomphan’s post, that the usual hardcore nitpickers and critics of these shows are now its biggest defender.They have loved this season beyond anything I’ve seen, at least so far. It doesn’t mean everyone feels that way obviously, but in general the season is getting tons of praise, again, so far. If nothing else, at least over the first two seasons. But that’s not hard…at all. ;)
I haven’t bought a DVD or Blu Ray since 2012. I would actually get one for this season but I know I would still just end up watching it online lol.
I disagree with your idea that now people would be throwing fits over those TNG episodes. The reason? There were so very very few of them. I can think of only 4 instances off the top of my head where TNG had a TOS element in it. 4 over 170 episodes. Nu-Trek can barely go 5 without a reference to what came before. And that’s being generous.
So, I think we can look to Galactica for what happens next.
The End Credits show an animation of the fleet museum under fire while a constitution class starship orbits it.
In this episode Geordi mentions how all the ships are connected.
Someone had code name “Starbuck” on the ships at Daystrom.
A virus is going to take down the fleet. The old ships are going to be reactivated and sent into battle.
Entirely plausible and reasonable
…went back and checked out the credits again. Yes, I’ll buy that.
Yes. Can’t wait to see the Ent-A and Excelsior back in action (along with the older Constitution class!)!!!!
Also maybe that is why the Titan is movie era, to avoid the networked pitfalls of the other TNG era ships.
Assume all those networked ships will end up under AI command serving this Dominion-Borg alliance which would be awesome!
Keep in mind though, it’s *not* the fleet museum that is being attacked. The starbase we see in the credits is the one in Earth orbit that the Titan was in and we see the E-F fly past on Frontier Day.
Ah yes. That’s true.
Dear god, I hope not…….but didn’t season one of Prodigy end in a similar fashion?
You know, if this season had been shot exactly the same, frame by frame, with a cast of unknowns (different names), everyone would be screaming that it was derivative dreck.
It would be funny if the two shows did end the same way (and back-to-back as well). Just like we got the back to back ending of Riker showing up to save the day in Picard and then Lower Decks. ;)
Am I the only person who is wondering if the person responding to the call sign “Starbuck” was Katee Sackhoff doing an uncredited voice cameo?
The Enterprise-F will appear somewhen… any clues about her captain? Someone from DS9 or VOY?
The Ready Room this week teased a major guest star next week, so who knows…
Since the episode is called Dominion, I’m hoping for someone from DS9. Like maybe someone from the actual Dominion.
Gritizens, you’re back! :)
I thought I read somewhere you had given up on the season and wasn’t going to watch the rest of it, but maybe I read that wrong. But yes I agree with you, the next episode is called Dominion so it would make sense it would be a DS9 character to show up if we are getting a big appearance next week.
I did say that. But I also said that I was gonna follow it still because I still have want to see how it plays out, I’m just gonna be super critical from here on out and half think that I need to keep my opinions to myself especially since they in part stem from my dissociative identity disorder.
I can’t deny that part of me is like Weyoun my beloved will it be you, but I need to control that part. I’m feeling very caught between a rock and a hard place rn because I never wanted a bunch of legacy characters showing up for what I pictured the DS9 legacy show looking like but if this season is gonna go all in on that, then give me the DS9 characters darn it.
Dude no one should keep their opinions to themselves, this is why we are on a message board lol. I am loving this season, LOVING it, but I want to hear everyone who don’t love it either and their reasons for it, especially people I respect like yourself. And I know you’re more of a DS9 fan. It’s still my favorite as well but TNG is a strong second for me.
Yes I remember our Weyoun conversation lol. I would be all for that as I said myself, but I’m not really expecting it either. But I hope if it’s not Weyoun, as long as its someone from DS9. But I really want to see characters from Voyager, especially after that moment with Seven in this episode. It’s stuff like that why so many people are falling over themselves about the season. Yes it’s all fan servicy but it’s an important piece of the characters too.
Well first of all, I wasn’t joking when I said it in part stems from my DID. Sometimes it’s hard for me to remember what was said in the show and what I remember from my life in the Trek universe. So I’m constantly trying not to influence anyone’s opinion really or say that the life that I lived is what Trek should be like here because it really shouldn’t be. Everyone is free to have their own interpretations of the universe and I’ll never hold that against them or hold my life above them, I don’t want to be that asshole. As such I don’t feel like I should talk about my life there. And if anyone doubts me or think I’m just writing fan fic, that’s fair. (Also what has been said about my life is real, all of those things was what led to the DID and how I came to live here in this universe.)
Sorry mods for all of that.
Anyway, moving on, I still absolutely feel like I’m just watching the Dominion War happen all over again with nothing that made it work the first time. And now I feel like we’re repeating the ending of it, which is an even more annoying feeling.
The rogue group acting and being different from how they were in DS9 isn’t an issue to me so much as not knowing their motivations at all. I’m just left guessing why they’re doing what they’re doing and that I absolutely hate. And I can’t say that right now I feel bad for them any. I watched that clip on the Ready Room and my thoughts were just “oh so now you’re getting a taste of your own medicine and you’re realizing how much it sucks huh.” Vadic and her cronies made this bed, they can sleep in it.
Also I’m not so thrilled about seeing the Defiant in the fleet museum. I do love the Defiant, I met the man who became my husband for the first time on board the first one. But at this rate seeing the Defiant or a Defiant class ship as a reference to the series is getting stale, between LD, Prodigy and now this. (Also feel the same way about ships named after Shran. It’s like yeah that’s great, I’d collect them all if money wasn’t an issue, honor Shran in more ways, like idk, developing Andorians more.)
Honestly, I’m just a simple man (making my way through the galaxy), seeing Quark thrive in LD is what I loved the most in DS9’s legacy in new Trek. I would love to see how the Cardassians are faring now, and the Bajorans. I would love to see how the Ferengi are doing under Rom’s leadership. All of which don’t really require returning characters but for in a small capacity. I would love to see the Dominion change and grow under Odo’s guidance.
Speaking of the Cardassians though, I also feel like this plot would have worked so much better had it been them instead of the Founders. They were introduced in TNG iirc and also a group of them breaking off to cling to the old ways makes a lot of sense for them.
I do want to see VOY characters too, ngl. But overall as far as honoring VOY goes, Prodigy is doing that so much better. However, with that said, Seven deserves to see them again. And so do VOY fans.
Ok all great points!
I obviously can’t talk to your DID and I won’t even try lol. But thanks for explaining it a little better.
And I understand your point about the Dominion but I have to disagree with you here a little because it’s not a ‘war’ this season. On DS9 they made their intentions known and known well and we see where it got them in the end which is why I think they changed strategy here.
What I really like about this is that no one was suppose to know the Dominion was involved at all or that anything bad was happening at all under Starfleet’s nose. That’s why it was a surprise to find out it was even them. Because they were obviously trying to do it as covertly as possible until they got caught. That’s why Vadic was posing as a bounty hunter. Sure we seen them do it on DS9 to an extent but the Federation was well aware they were trying to secretly take over during the war. In this case, for all we know, they HAVE taken over Starfleet already. That’s why it’s interesting because achieved their main goal in terms of taking over the leadership. They were never close to doing that in DS9 because they were too aware of their presence.
But the issue is we don’t know what their final endgame is, whatever they are planning to take down the Federation as a whole and for reason it seems to involve Jack and Picard; either to enhance what their plan is or fear they may be able to stop it.
And we’re going to find out the motivation obviously. Again, that’s why I like it, it’s all a big mystery. The Dominion war went on for years on DS9 but the motivation was very clear lol. I liked it’s steeped in mystery and that these rogue Changelings have something else brewing, but I think we’ll learn what it is next episode. And I think we’re going to learn it goes beyond the Changelings with whoever Vadic is corresponding with. Matalas said the end of the season was going to be a game changer and I’m starting to believe that now. The stakes are building as we go.
So that’s what makes it more interesting, it’s more of a, sorry, secret invasion playing out. But if you still don’t like that angle, I gotcha. But I find it really fascinating. And at least it didn’t turn out to be another uber villain wanting revenge for nonsensical reasons. Ugh.
As far as the Defiant, that’s what is crazy about these new shows. We haven’t seen that ship officially on air for literally over 20 years (the last time before last year was the last few minutes of Endgame) and then just by crazy coincidence it shows up in three shows straight lol. I don’t think that was intentional obviously, but that’s the issue when you have so many shows on at the same time both production and timeline wise. I imagine they wouldn’t have had this ship shown three seasons straight but they probably don’t share details like this in the productions; especially since it’s all just been cameo appearances. But I heard so many people moaning we haven’t seen the Defiant yet (especially during the LDS/DS9 crossover) and now no more moaning lol.
Completely agree with everything else! And yes, I think Prodigy is doing a great job with the Voyager characters and hope we get more next season on that show. I’m convinced we’re getting the Voyager A. Again, it’s pretty funny, we haven’t seen a Voyager since the original show went off for over 20 years and now there seems to be a Voyager popping up in every show since the J showed up on Discovery.
Think of me as more like Data in this episode. Instead of being a bunch of androids in the same body, there’s just a bunch of people (which androids are people too of course) in the same body. But instead of having everyone at once you usually get one or two people at a time and it’s been me, Aaron, a lot lately. So you can talk to me as normal because that’s just what I am, a normal person (okay I’m actually an augment but hopefully you know what I mean.) I just happen to be from another universe originally and sharing a body with other people.
I know it’s not really a war, really really well in fact. But it feels like we’re just repeating the lead up to it seasons with all of this but with much higher stakes. Which I really don’t like but that’s me. Your opinion is fair and can co-exist with mine.
And we still kinda had that secret invasion angle during DS9, I mean after all, they replaced Martok and nobody realized. I just think it’s ridiculous that now it’s worse and nobody really picked up on it. After the war itself and the lead up to it, surely someone would remember ways to tell. Did people forget this easily? Or maybe I just never could.
I’m looking forward to Prodigy season 2 though and I’ll just have to wait and see how the rest of this season goes.
My full opinions are complicated and better left somewhere that’s not here because uh yeah I wasn’t joking when I said it’s partly related to my DID. If you have discord, that’s definitely the best place to talk to me to get my full opinions.
Otherwise, firstly I really feel like this season would have been better off if this had been the Cardassians instead of the Founders. A rogue group of them that wanted things to stay how they were would make a lot of sense to me.
I had more thoughts but I’ve lost them so bear with me while I get them all back.
Edit: I had written a lot but the comment is awaiting approval and if it doesn’t post I know why and that’s super fair if it doesn’t. this was take two of my reply 😂
Oh it did post ignore this then
You don’t have to put things in spoiler format if you’re just speculating. If that was the case, 2/3rds of the comments section would be covered lol.
And Matalas already confirmed we will see more DS9 and VOY characters. So it could be anybody frankly.
It was a good episode and much better then the previous one which i felt was a bit weak though i do find this season feeling drawn out story wise just like S2 was to fill the 10 episode season.
I am not liking Vadic as a villain to be honest.
She is a nutjob especially when she murdered one of her own people and changelings do have a rule that no changeling harms another but maybe it’s different with these changelings as they are definitely not acting like the ones from DS9 (i finished a re-watch of DS9 a few days ago).
I loved seeing the Fleet Museum and seeing some of the older legacy ships. The Defiant looks great as ever while i found the TOS constitution CGI a bit off. Voyager looked beautiful and it made me want a remaster even more especially if they can add that CGI version of Voyager to it.
Jack having Irumodic Syndrome is interesting and i think it’s a nice tie into S2 with Picard’s mother as i believe the reason why she was acting the way she did was because of the Syndrome too and if she did have it then she passed it on to Picard and now he passed it on to Jack.
I enjoyed seeing the reunion between Worf/Geordi and the other TNG crew and it’s sad that it looks like the break up between 7 and Raffi was real i hope they get back together again at the end of the show.
Loved hearing S31 being mentioned and I’m glad to see Terry hasn’t listened to the haters who wanted him to forget about the organization.
Stealing the cloak from the bounty was a interesting idea but wouldn’t it be obsolete against 25th century sensors? and seeing Geordi going Engineer again was cool.
Cloaking after dropping out of warp then Shaw saying they have no idea we’re here was silly i mean surely the other ships sensors would still of picked up a ship heading there at warp then ‘disappearing’ from sensors lol.
So the changelings stole Picard’s original body hmmm…. I guess that explains how they are more ‘solid’ then the DS9 changelings as they are using Picards body to do it somehow (which goes against their entire beliefs of Solids being lesser then them).
That is why they are after Jack as well because he is the missing puzzle to their ultimate plan.
I wonder if Troi is real or at maybe a Changeling posing as her to try and get Riker to betray Picard?
Its safe to say these changelings are *not* like the others and clearly there is a split between the Great Link (as Odo has warned there are breakaway factions) so its safe to assume the normal society norms that we saw the female Founder display (IE not killing other changlings) doesn’t apply to these at all.
About the cloak from Bounty..the fact it is as old as it is may be exactly why it wasn’t detected. Its plausible that 25th century sensors are attuned to the cloaks from ships of the era and may now see the 2280’s vintage cloak on the Bounty as being unlikely ever be seen again, so they’re not looking for it.
Yeah I was going to say the same thing. I think these are rogue Changelings and probably have a very different philosophy. And whoever Vadic is answering to may not be a Changeling at all either.
Can we call the new Daystrom Institute android Dayta?
So, we’ve got Picard’s body stored at the horror movie set Daystrom Station on the show “Picard.” Seems kind of similar to how there was a single Alien on the Nostromo in “Alien.”
I’d like to pitch a sequel series called “Picards.” The Titan gets a signal from a far off colony world, reporting that they’ve mysteriously lost all of their Earl Grey. The colony governor mentions a shiny head moving in the middle distance before the transmission is cut. They get to the planet and we see 211 Jeans-Luc. One for every episode/movie he’s been on. Dressed in a costume from each episode. Behaving as he did in that episode. Antics ensue.
Well, the only Reason i see why they want his original Body. (And i thought it was Buried or burned at Dr. Soong’s Season 1 place) is easy….
Wolf 359 “The Sky was Burning!” Locutus
My favorite one-liner of ep6…
Geordi to Picard: “Trust you to turn fatherhood into an intergalactic incident” :D :D :D
They have to do this with Kirk.
One thing that I think should change is that I don’t think section 31 should be bad guys. They are a part of Starfleet. They sometimes have to do things that can’t be done officially. I loved that they had a genesis device. I was always wondering why they never shot one right at the Borg.
But somehow, they need to use what they put in this episode, as a means to bring Shatner back.
And this should not be something where he dies again, or bravely sacrifices himself, or turned evil. Just bring the character back, have him get one nice adventure, and have him ride off into the sunset with a happy ending.
It could be exploration, it could be some other purpose. But Captain Kirk needs a better conclusion. And the best part is CGI technology can make William Shatner younger. Hell, make him 35 and put him on that bridge of a starship, even enterprise F.
I think that a younger CGI Shatner would engender the opposite reaction than what you suppose; I think it would become an object of ridicule across media, since the 92-year-old Shatner is still a fairly visible public figure. If they absolutely must have Kirk appear (and I personally don’t think that’s gonna happen) it has to be a younger actor playing Kirk or they brainstorm some sci-fi reason for having a 92-year-old Kirk. Just my two cents…
They brainstormed a reason to have a new synthetic lifeform have the physical appearance of a human in his 70s, so…
The single greatest episode of Trek. Ever.
It definitely hit hard and gave some tasty dopamine rushes
Yes, lately when i am watching these Picard Season 3 Clip on the Net, i unconsciously smile from Ear to ear
If they have Kirk’s and Picard’s bodies, maybe the effects of the nexus are being studied?
I’m not happy about this one at all but I’m trying to keep my negative opinions to myself. 😮💨
Part of me is sitting here like if the changeling virus is their motivation, while it’s understandable, we already went through why it was wrong and a horrible thing to do in DS9 itself. Which is true, it was wrong. And it was also wrong when the Dominion themselves did it to others (episodes like the Quickening.) So if they’re mad about it being done in the first place, they’re all a bunch of hypocrites. So that would be just another repeated plot from DS9 in my mind.
Please express your opinions. In spite of some preferring these threads be echo chambers there are those who LIKE to read all kinds of takes.
I’m disappointed in the reveal of the Defiant and 1701-A. It was done by two characters who have no connection whatsoever to those legendary ships and was just glanced over, especially for the 1701-A. Those ships deserve more than a caption and a few seconds on screen. And the way Seven did the Voyager description was overdone. The moment would have been better served by fewer words and maybe a nostalgic glance, like Kirk did in TMP during the inspection with Scotty.
Also Why HMS Bounty? Defiant also has an Cloaking Device or this is just an Defiant Class Ship and not the DS9 one
Only Defiant NX-74205 had the cloaking device, and whats left of it is likely floating around the Chintoka System following the Breen attack there. The second Defiant class Defiant, officially NCC-75633 (formerly USS Sao Paulo) did not have a cloaking device.
Ah thanks for the confirmation
Fairly sure I saw a Romulan Bird of Prey in that collection. They could have easily gotten a cloaking device from it.
PICARD: Constitution class.
SCOTTY: Aye. You’re familiar with them?
PICARD: There’s one in the Fleet museum…
I guess that’s the one Picard was talking about.
Ayyyyy, youse guys, its the U.S.S. New Jersey!! About freakin’ time!!!
I’m definitely not complaining about this episode, since I love, love, love fan service! But as someone once said, “Too much of anything, Lieutenant, even love, isn’t necessarily a good thing.” So much squeezed into just one episode — I’m in sugar shock! But not complaining…
I guess the obvious guess would be that the shapeshifters want Picard’s body and son in order to weaponize their Irumodic Syndrome as revenge for the changeling virus — so obvious, that the real answer is probably something else entirely.
Yeah I have no problem with fan service as long as it’s done well and this was done really really well IMO. Loved almost everything about the episode EXCEPT Moriarty unfortunately. Now that was the one bit of fan service I didn’t think was done very well. I get the connection to Data but it still felt too abstract and unnecessary.
And wow interesting theory about Picard and Jack. That sounds more feasible than the Borg theory since A. Picard is not the only person who has been assimilated and walking around and B. there is no attachment to Jack. Their disease could be a more interesting angle and maybe why Jack supposedly has it too.
More Easter Eggs than Cadburys.
But at least they’re tasty.
Wasn’t the Genesis device destroyed along with Khan? Was there a second Genesis device created along with the one that Khan stole?
The graphic says it’s a “Genesis II” device, so would seem Starfleet did some secret development on it post TWOK/TSFS
Thanks for catching that. I wanted to freeze those labels to read them, but freaking Paramount+ shrinks the screen every time I pause it.
I *really* want to know what the text under Kirks display says. I can make out words like “Starfleet” and “officer” and “Enterprise” in the paragraph, but the rest is just too blurry
I want to know too. I have been straining my eyes trying to read it.
Seems to be a bio and accolades. Then it ends with something like ‘Kirk was injured assisting Picard on Veridian III’ and the last phrase is ‘his body was recovered(?) retrieved(?) for project phoenix’
That’s awesome! More than I could see there. Thanks!
Good lord… I really hope that doesn’t mean what it implies….
Someone on twitter said the display says “Project Phoenix”, and I think the last two words at the bottom do say that, unless my brain is just tricking me into seeing it.
Agree. Blurry, but I read Project Phoenix
Mine doesn’t do that. Are you watching through Amazon or something?
Watching through the Paramount+ website.
I know that was a problem maybe… a year ago or so, but it hasn’t been an issue for me for a while now. That said, I mainly watch through my computer on a big screen monitor, not on a TV.
Well, the original Genesis device was detonated. As it failed as a terraforming device, it’s potential as a weapon was a spectacular success. That point wasn’t lost on the Klingons.
I’d assume there were spec’s and blue prints, and that more then one was built. Or, at least the Federation retained the ability to manufacture more.
I always figured the plans didn’t exist. There’s a line by Terrell in Wrath of Khan saying Khan couldn’t find them, “even the databanks were empty” or words to that effect.
That just means they weren’t on the station server. Federation Research didn’t MacGyver this thing together. Given enough time, Khan would have reverse engineered the one he had. He seemed to understand it’s weaponized potential as well.
Lots of greats stuff and lots that seems little off in the making sense department .Like no ships and people watching the vault that recently got burgled but it is the best episode so far!!!
SO finally the Changling plot has to do with the Weapon, and it is Picard’s Body …that can only mean Borg stuff ,nano probes??
The line about all the ships talking to each other .And the one about the fleet all in one place ……use the borg stuff from Picard’s body to take over the fleet and use it to destroy Starfleet ?.Someone watched Lower Decks Didn’t they ?
KIRK LIVES !!!!
We’ll see in what capacity that last bit comes to pass…but its..remarkable that people are freaking out more about the ships than the fact that its heavily implied that JTK is alive
You can hear the TOS sick bay bed beeps
Also…the musical queue when they pan by Kirks pod..its from either TWOK or TSFS, I can’t pin it down directly, but its either from Spocks death in engineering or the mind meld with Sarek.
I *think* it’s from the Sarek mind meld in TSFS..which..has pretty significant implications
I wonder, will the showrunners ever give us a single vision for what the TOS era Constitution class should look like?
After seeing the Enterprise in Discovery and SNW, I allowed myself to retcon that look into being what it always should have looked like.
But now showing us an “old school” look at that design with the USS New Jersey is, frankly, not helping with maintaining a cohesive universe.
If anything, it feeds the fan theories that DSC and SNW are in some alternate timeline, something that CBS has denied is the case.
It’s like the TOS era exists in some quantum state of visual appearances.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
There will always be inconsistencies. If the Constitution shown had been the Dsc/SNW style, people would have said there would be the logical disconnect between the TOS style and Relics where Picard and Scotty were on the holodeck.
I’m kind of a canon rivetcounter myself, but I just enjoyed the seratonin dose from seeing the old ships on screen.
I think it’s literally just the showrunners saying “stop taking it so seriously.” It’s the same ship in my mind, and how they choose to depict it will depend on who’s running that show.
I personally think it’s just the producers saying “it’s ALL Star Trek; the differences aren’t important.”
I do think it shows there was no need to re-design the Enterprise for DIS/SNW, the Original Matt Jefferies design looks good today with modern Techniques.
Loved it!! Loved it!! Loved it!!
So many great moments, emotional beats and amazing surprises! We knew Geordi would show up but I didn’t expect to see Troi and DATA!!!!!! I loved how they introduced him in this episode and they figured out a logical and ingenious way to bring him back being a hybrid of Lore, B-4 and even Lal.
But this episode manged to outshine last weeks which was already amazing in itself. That fleet museum and seeing all those ships, especially the NX-01, Enterprise A and Voyager. I nearly teared up as Seven talked about her time there with Jack and the Voyager theme song bellowed. And they are foreshadowing someone from her former family will show up by the time the season is over.
It was also fun to see Moriarty but it was a little too fast IMO, but that’s my only real negative. It might have been better just to keep him as a complete surprise.
And yeah Section 31 keeping remains of former captain is creepy. Where all of that is going and why Changelings want Picard’s is the left turn I never expected to take but can’t wait to see where it goes.
Finally, I lol how Shaw was fanboying over Geordi. He sees Picard and Riker as nothing but a total pain in his ass but Geordi he can’t believe he’s in the same room with. I love this guy.
This episode ticked every box for me. Great nostalgia, chemistry of the old gang and building the story/mystery in a strong way. This is the show I wanted since season one!
Thanks Tiger2, i have noticed an usually large number of spoilers for this week’s episode and I have done my best to avoid knowing too much about tonight’s episode.
As usual, i only read the first sentence of your post to get prepared for E6!
Oh yeah, definitely stay away lol. It’s a heavy spoiler episode for sure and I talk about many of them in this review. I don’t think anyone expected we would get so much of it in this one episode alone.
But yeah a really satisfying episode. Just a lot of fun even without some of the big twists.
Wow, so much nostalgia while still moving forward with the story. Not much to add to your review, but the Changelings stealing Picard’s remains came out of left field along with the Data, B4, Lore and Lal hybrid.
Really liked the conflicted Geordi speaking with his daughter and then realizing his Enterprise family really is just as important as his real family.The Changelings really are diabolical, using Diana against Riker. I guess we will learn next week if she is real or a Changeling!
Cant wait to see what’s in store for next Thursday!
Oh btw, it was great to see the six TNG actors’ names show up on the end credits and yeah I too laughed at Shaw going all superfan for Geordi!
So glad you liked it! Yeah it’s a lot of nostalgia. For some it’s apparently TOO much lol, but not for me. I enjoyed it. I guess because I didn’t really expect any of it. I knew we would see Geordi, find out what they were holding at Daystrom Station and that would be it. I knew Geordi worked at the Fleet Museum but I thought they were going to hold off on the ship porn until later in the season. I thought we would meet him someplace else first. But it was not only great to get that sooner, it actually had a purpose to the plot and the title of the episode makes it that much more pleasing. ;)
But I know it wasn’t perfect and there are some questionable things done like why did Vadic shoot one of her men, but I have faith that will all be answered.
And as I said, I was really disappointed over the Moriarty reveal. I watched both of his episodes before the season started lol. Yeah that was on me (and they are both still great episodes) but I thought we were getting a juicy plot with this character or a resolution and I think a lot of people did, but oh well.
But it was great to see ALL the TNG characters finally here and some reunions between them. I thought they were going to drag out all the intros throughout the season, but I’m so happy they brought in the rest this episode. I just love their chemistry. I admit, I never really understood when people said the characters were too bland. I mean they can’t be that bland if three decades on people are still drooling to see them show up and how fun it is to see them interact together. But I know everyone sees things differently. But TNG is still very popular 35 years later not just because of the stories it told or the mythology it created, but also these characters specifically. It’s a joy to see all of them!
And yeah Shaw reaction to Geordi is just great. I really really hope they keep that going lol.
I totally agree. I really think that using Moriarty was a total waste, or perhaps he should not have been in any of the trailers at all and then just be a little surprise. This is not the same Moriarty we saw in those two episodes of TNG that was given sentience, but just part of Data’s mind. That is a total misdirect of the trailers and really makes me mad at those that created the trailers for being lied to.
However, the two best parts of this episode was the scene with Jack and Seven looking at the ships and when Data woke up and said “Geordi?” Those got me in the feels.
Here is my prediction: last two episodes will have have a small fleet of those old ships crewed as follows:
Enterprise-D (in Hanger Bay 12) with Picard, Geordi, Riker, Troi, Dr. Crusher
Defiant with Worf, Raffi, and Cheif O’Brien
Enterprise-A with Jack Crusher and the two La Forge sisters
Voyager with Admiral Janeway, Seven, and maybe the EMH
Titan-A with Shaw and the rest of his bridge crew
They will go up against the changeling-controlled Starfleet ships and the Shrike.
I absolutely, absolutely despise retconning section 31,
what DS9 did w section 31 was perfect. Everything else since enterprise has been w respect to section 31 has been nauseating. Section 31 is a genocidal terrorist organization,
It cannot be an official arm of Starfleet unless the federation openly approves of a Gestapo police as a component of its force.
Starfleet had already entertained the notion of committing genocide even without Section 31. They had directed Picard to send Hugh back into the collective as a trojan horse to deliver a compounding error that would have wiped out the Borg entirely. Picard was fully prepared to go along with it and supported it, only having a crisis of character moments before the final decision had to be made.
Starfleet *100%* was fine with what Section 31 generally was willing to do.
A rogue group eventually, yes, but they were a group that determined the Ends Justified The Means..and guess what, most of Starfleet has been like that.
Sisko committed murder in the name of the greater good, committed a war crime in the name of the greater good (vs the Maquis).
Janeway committed multiple crimes that fit into the “greater good” model, as did Archer.
The *only* on screen Starfleet captain that ever abstained from objective wrongs, no matter the outcome, was Picard.
I’ve never had much problem with S31. I think it’s a fascinating concept, and I don’t even mind that how they’re depicted on DSC/PIC isn’t consistent with what we saw on DS9. That stuff can easily be explained and retconned away.
I think it’s good to let these ideas evolve. I didn’t like what they did with them on DSC, but not because it was different or incongruous.
I didn’t either. I think Sloane is a villain or an example of what happens when your good intentions have led you to hell, but its clear that not all of S31 is like him.
I always thought how they did Section 31 in Enterprise was great. But yes agreed how they did them on Discovery and a big reason there is so much push back for a show. If you thought they took them too far in that season, imagine what a show can do lol.
I don’t think that your Gestapo analogy is correct. Section 31 is the CIA of Starfleet.
Not really. The CIA is actually answerable to higher authority. Section 31 seems like it answers to no one and has zero accountability. Which is why their existence has always been a bad idea for me. Should have just stick with UFP Intelligence. That would work better. Perhaps they have a black opps kind of arm where the officials know better than to ask exactly what they do or something like that…
Given the Daystrom Institute appears to be closely modeled on Draper Lab this S31 connection makes sense.
Draper Lab was originally a part of MIT (and is still affiliated) but it had to be spun out and pushed off of MIT’s
federal land grant campus during the Vietnam War because its enormous DoD and covert research budget was larger than much of the rest of the hard sciences and engineering.
Spinning it into a separate, across the road, institute made it possible to restrict research students and faculty for security purposes. While I doubt Draper is a museum, like any MIT lab, anything that might be scavenged, hoarded and cannibalized, for future use in some other device or experiment, will be.
I don’t think they’re really retconning it as much as you’d think. Take a look back at DS9 again, it’s never explicitly said that it’s completely secret, or that nobody at all knows about it. Quite the opposite actually:
While none of the main cast is aware, it’s pretty clear that Admirals and other Starfleet brass are keenly aware of its existence. Sisko notes that Starfleet Command refused to deny the existence of S31. Admiral Ross too didn’t seem all that troubled by working with them, and saw it as a means to an end.
It would seem to me that Section 31 is a clandestine government agency that high levels of Starfleet have always had some awareness of. The only retcon is that at one point they operated more publicly like the CIA, and then went more deeply underground, but were exposed again after the Dominion War.
To all of the Mass Effect Fans here, i hope you did noticed the Easter Egg here!. What i am talking about? Oh come on. Well I want to bring back your memories, a Guy sitting on some Chair, smoking….. a Cigar and talking to some Woman.. Now did it click? Yes, i am talking about the Red Sun in the back of the Titan going to Warp (I saw the Video clip right now). So as i said many time, Star Trek and Mass Effect has some many things overlapping in Story telling, that both could be benefit from each other.
Did it came back to you now? Your Welcome Shepard :) (p.s. i played Fem Shepard)
I’m hoping Troi ends up being more than the damsel in distress.
Maybe she’s a shiiiiifffffttttttteeeeeerrrrr.
or she is an changeling to put pressure on him. Perhaps we see some Lines where Riker ask her out only the real Troi would known
He once had something similar experience, with some Romulan hijacking him and gave him an Holographic married Woman on his side that blow it out
I don’t think she will be a changeling because they made it clear the Titan crew is very prepared for that. I’m pretty sure that’s the first thing Riker will assume given what’s been happening on the Titan. But sure I guess they can try anyway.
If Season 1 or 2 had gone a bit different path with these Android Twins, they could had them befriend the Daugther of Riker and Troi and these Androids would be surly protect them.. But well, sorry. Just my thought
Wouldn’t Riker be able to tell right away it’s not Deanna because of their bond? They can sense each other. Their reactions to seeing other felt very real. I really wonder how they’re doing to explain where the daughter is at.
Plus it’d be really unfortunate if her previous two appearances were on Zoom nagging Riker and then her first real appearance on the show is a fake out. I think it’s just her for real. Vadic said at the beginning of the episode to find her someone not on the Titan that could use as leverage and they went for Deanna.
Yeah, but in Season 1 Riker also show what Security he has at Home. But perhaps they got some “Bad Admiral” override Access Code to disable it. But then there is still their Daughter, perhaps they did not wanted to hire the Teen Age Actor for this Episodes. So, let her be on some School Trip save & Sound and do not notice it.
Perhaps to add some Empathy Spice, she is taking this Trip with Soong’s Android Friends and some ex Borgs. But this line is my Sci-Fi Fantasy and would happen in Season 2. So if they still have some Android Twins Actors out there, they could show us an Group Photo with Riker&Troi’s Daughter class at some Point. So that they still get some Offscreen love
So we get then seen even Riker&Troi’s child, toghter with Picard’s Son and La Forge. Sadly we do not get Dal the daughter of Data. But perhaps to many Kids now could be overdoing here