[Picard episode review starts at 19:05]
Tony and Laurie talk about new character posters for Star Trek: Strange New Worlds and new Trek merch (including the TNG movies on 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray), then dig into the latest on Picard, from Terry Matalas’ assurance that Kirk will not be making an appearance on the show (beyond the remains we saw at Daystrom) to his description of the show as a proper send-off for the TNG crew. After playing some of the audio from Tony’s interview with Brent Spiner—who talks about Data’s evolution as well as his feline colleague—it’s time to review the latest Picard episode, “Surrender.” Laurie and Tony enjoyed it thoroughly, especially the way it moved the story forward and gave us great character moments along the way, although they’re both impatiently waiting to learn the full story about Jack. They wrap things up with an April Fools’ Day joke from Prodigy EP Aaron Waltke and fun Voyager guest star trivia.
New Character Posters Revealed For ‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’ Season 2
EXO-6 Teases First Contact Worf 1:6 Scale Figure [StarTrek.com]
Corgi announces return of to Trek die-cast [Facebook]
Starfleet Command added Titan new update [Scopely]
Review: ‘Star Trek: The Next Generation 4-Movie Collection’ 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Is An Engaging Upgrade
Terry Matalas Explains The “Return” Of James T. Kirk On ‘Star Trek: Picard’
Terry Matalas On How ‘Picard’ Season 3 Ends, Setting Up ‘Star Trek: Legacy’ Spin-Off
Terry suggests Alexander would be in “Star Trek: Legacy” show [Twitter]
Interview: Brent Spiner On Playing A New (And Old) Android In ‘Star Trek: Picard’
‘Star Trek: Picard’ Finale Sparks Philosophical Fan Debate — Is Picard Still Picard?
Crossing the streams in Ghostbusters (YouTube)
Tony: Aaron Waltke’s April Fools’ Day joke / Joke revealed
Laurie: William Daniels was on Voyager
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I’m guessing at this point we’ll never find out why Beverly was listening to old Enterprise-D captain’s logs way back in Episode 1… unless it turns out (as seems likely) the Face has a Borg connection, and the doctor gets a line that begins, “Oh, yeah, that reminds me…”
Wasn’t it Jack who was playing the logs?
The pan cut back and forth between their two work areas.
No, and nor should they. See this is one of the things I liked about the first half of the season: it didn’t feel the need to handhold you through everything. The story trusted the audience to connect the dots of minor plot points.
I thought the reason she listened to those logs was fairly straight-forward: she was being chased by a ruthless enemy and not being a tactician, looked back on Picard’s old logs for tactical advice and insight. She was hiding in the nebula because that’s what Picard did when the Borg were chasing the Enterprise.
Not everything has to be a mind-blowing revelation, and not everything has to be spelled-out that clearly. Again, it’s one of the things I really liked about the early episodes.
And even if i’m wrong somehow, and Matalas gives some other reason on twitter, there’s enough for me to just move on and not focus on something that doesn’t really matter to the story.
Pretty sure you’re right on this one. She’s not a tactician for starships, so she was pulling in whatever information she could find. The Picard log was for the audience, but in-universe, she would have pulled from many sources.
Honestly, not really something that needed to be dwelled on, either. If you didn’t connect those dots, just consider it a pointless easter egg and move on.
Also, maybe was she looking up the Borg virus thingy.
There would be absolutely no reason to do that. Stop overthinking it.
Stop telling people what to do. Seriously.
I think the quiet Frontier Day is because Star Trek has a problem. It is no longer seen as an exciting show about a team exploring a dangerous universe, it is about “OMG Riker!!!” “OMG Janeway!!!” “OMG SPOT THE CAT!!!” “OMG Kirk!!” which let’s face it, the fan base for that has been fading.
I concur with TPTB that they need a couple years of the Big E exploring the universe in Strange New Worlds to get back to basics. Now I love TOS and they’ve got a great cast, I can see Pike and Una bringing in the fans so that might be enough.
The Academy show might work given they are rebuilding the Academy and the Starfleet… but I worry the tech is just too advanced to be exciting (every problem solved by bringing in a Data type construct, magic mushrooms = free power and warp anywhere). But done right. I can see that working.
HOWEVER I still think the best answer is a soft reboot of Trek with Cochrane and his SpaceX type probe agency team post WW3 saving Earth, colonizing the solar system, initial first contacts to take advantage of a) the love for all these post disaster / Zombie shows b – the love for all these western shows c) MOST IMPORTANTLY – SpaceX excitement as we finally see what a small team of fun people can accomplish in real life. To dumb it down to sell the show Yellowstone + Last of Us + SpaceX = Trek Cochrane.
You try to stick to canon (use Kzinti instead of Romulans, set up the relics of the Vegan Tyranny as a bad guy, you have some weird first contacts and internal Earth politics, you have the first settlers and do some Yellowstone where Cochrane is trying to do what he wants and avoid the dysfunctional still being set up United Earth (the UE space agency rep btw has to be some hot shot JAG lawyer with a lot of sexual tension there who, especially at first, acts as almost a double agent so sympathetic she is to Cochrane’s teams plight, like RJ Blaise from the DC comics when Kirk got a Federation protocol officer).
But whenever some canon violation comes up (hopefully by mistake because you are actually going to read the Encyclopedia, I will donate my library to the cause) you bring up that this is either the original post FC timeline, or the the modified timeline, or the Kelvin timeline you can have your pick that people will be so time loop confused you’ll get a pass without having to try to justify it.
As it turns out, I suspect Paramount low balled First Contact Day and moved up its Star Trek announcements because SW is holding its global con in London.
I don’t track SW. However, others have noted a big splash of announcements of new movies and more.
If Paramount and Secretl Hideout got a sense, through the industry networks, that a set of major announcements would be made by a competing franchise this week, it makes sense that they would pull back.
It doesn’t however excuse Paramount from not having already staked the timing so that other franchises wouldn’t be holding major events the same week as First Contact day.
For a firm that trying to make fandoms and franchises 2 of 3 key planks in their strategy, this is pretty unfathomable.
Yeah,several new SW trailers dropped today as did the newest trailer for Indiana Jones
I hope Indiana Jones is good… and no x file aliens!
Thanks to this post, I went and looked at most of them. I had no idea, I was off the internet this morning. I’m a bit jealous SW is getting so many movies, but we been down this hyperspace tunnel before. ;)
Maybe ONE of them will actually happen this time though. It would be cool if Star Trek could make multiple movies like the shows and we get another Kelvin movie, a TNG movie and a post TUC movie with new characters or something but that’s all a pipe dream. ;)
Star Wars has been just as bad as Trek in cancelling movies. Multiple movies have been announced and then cancelled. Take all of the announced movies with a parsec worth of salt. Damon Lindelof was recently writing the Rey movie and just bailed on it.
LOL I know, which is why I said I wouldn’t be surprised if we only got one of the three movies announced. ;)
But I was really saying at least with Star Wars they are trying to now be more ambitious on how they see the movie slate, ie, it’s no longer just about the Skywalkers/Vader. I been begging to see that like forever now. And of course Mandalorian is probably a big reason why they are willing to stretch the story beyond the OT characters outside of the comic books or novels; hence why he’s now getting his own movie.
That was really my point, it saddens me they can’t seem to take the same view with the Star Trek movies and mix it up a bit. I don’t have an issue with more Kelvin or TNG movies as I noted both of those (and I do realize most of the new SW movies will at least involve legacy characters). But I would happily like to see something completely different with a new era and characters; with at least ONE movie and/or multiple ideas at once. But Star Trek isn’t big enough for the latter like SW can be.
But the Star Trek movie slate is stalled because they seem to think they can only get an audience with known characters and what’s worse is doubling down on the Kelvin movies even though they are too costly and don’t pull in enough money, hence why they keep failing to get a green light. Sadly there is no real vision or motivation to actually try something different and why they have been stalled for seven years now.
But yes both sides seems to be having problems green lighting movies and SW has now become infamous over it. But I think now they are really going to push to get a movie out, especially now that they realize making SW on Disney+ isn’t going to carry that streaming site alone. End of the day, at least for SW, the movies is what can bring in big money if enough fans are excited about it. Sadly I can’t say the same for a Star Trek movie and why I expect that to remain dead for another 3-5 years before something appears on screen again.
I seriously doubt that Disney gives a rat’s ass about avoiding the week that P organizes First Contact Day announcements. That’s like a barely annoying fly to SW and Disney.
But it might have been otherwise if CBS and Paramount had staked out space for the franchise years ago.
Unlikely. As I said elsewhere, SWC does not have a set day. It’s been in May, July, etc. Meaning they chose 4/7 this year with absolutely no regard for Paramount.
I know people like to pick on Paramount for not promoting Trek well enough, but “not staking out FC day years ago” is not something that matters. Trek is just not a brand that will ever make SW change their plans.
It’s like when DC tried to release Superman v Batman the same day Marvel had planted a flag for Captain America 3, and people thought Marvel might move.
Nope. DC wound up abandoning it when they didn’t, in fact.
You’re probably right about FC Day, and choosing to release news a week early due to SWC. That said, it’s not a crime that Paramount chose 4/5 as a “holiday” in Trek land. The truth is, not much usually happens the first week of April.
Historically, Star Wars Celebration doesn’t have a set annual date. It’s been in late April, May, July, August… this year is the earliest its ever been held. In 2019 it was 4/11. Last year it was held on 5/26.
This season is so damn good. If only Rafi weren’t there–then it’d be near perfect.
Agree that the season is great, but I wish we had MORE Raffi. Love the character, love the actress. I wish we had more scenes with her and “JL” together, it’s bugging me that they haven’t had a conversation. They could have such a great talk about Worf!
Even just one moment where Raffi and Seven sit down and talk about relationship would have been nice.
That too. Plus I want more interaction between the TNG folks and Raffi, Seven, and Shaw.
A Data and Seven conversation has huge potential.
Yes! It’s one of the biggest missed opportunities that Trek didn’t do more crossovers in the 90s. Barclay and Troi were so great on Voyager, a Data/Seven relationship has a lot of potential.
I’ve had mixed feelings about Raffi in previous seasons.
I don’t think her relationship with Picard has been healthy for her, and he doesn’t seem capable giving her the support she’s been seeking from a mentor. She’s been emblematic of his poor mentoring/parenting from the beginning.
So, I’m happy to see Worf now taking on the role of an unusual mentor that is prioritizing her development and wellbeing. Seeing her brief interaction with Troi was a pleasure. This season has done a great deal towards treating her with respect as a character while addressing Picard’s mentoring/parenting with others.
I was frankly uneasy with the original choice to have a woman of colour be the first main cast character in Trek who is has addictions. Tying it into the risks of a specific kind of intelligence work, made it credible. Still risking negative stereotypes nonetheless.
In season one, I felt Hurd, was giving credible performances. However, her story was, like the XBs’, muddled in with so much else that the downside of negative stereotyping wasn’t adequately balanced.
Raffi’s relationship with Seven in season two wasn’t written in a way that served either well. Both characters shine when in a bit of friction with others. Given both their past trauma, it’s not what we want to see them doing in a romantic relationship though.
What I’ve been hoping for this season is a moment where Seven acknowledges that Raffi is important but that she is working through her own transition into a Starfleet commander. That way, they can keep the door open.
Each episode I’ve been hoping for Seven and Raffi to have a moment together. They have really managed to hold their own in a show focused on the TNG characters, but I think they could have devoted a little bit more time, even just one extra scene to the Seven/Raffi relationship. I’m really hoping they end up adding Worf and Raffi to the Section 31 show with Georgiou (if that ever gets out of development).
I still don’t know why we can’t have a simple scene of them like waking up in bed or sharing a toothbrush in the bathroom? What’s the big deal?
I wonder if it is because of the bizarre uproar that a similiar scene that took place between Stamets and Culber on DSC. The fandom *hated* that and accused the show of being “woke” (as if Star Trek hasn’t been progressive since it’s inception). I think that the producers of these shows feel they have to cater to these loud-mouth right-wing yahoos who identify as fans but don’t necessarily “get” the messages of the fandom.
That was one of Discovery’s best scenes. It was done right, no heavy-handed message. Unfortunately this was early in the show’s running and later show-runners didn’t have the competence to continue along those subtle lines.
I love the character of Raffi as well. It looks like she had her full circle of redemption from where she was from when we first saw her. I wanted to see that conversation with Raffi and Picard too! They bother worked closely with Worf. And even having Worf with the 2 of them would have been amazing too. I really do hope they bring her back for a spin-off. The character is complex and well written, with flaws and personal challenges. With so many key players in this season, we don’t get too much more. But I love the way she started the season. She had lots more to do than I initially thought. Loved the chemistry she had with Worf.
Yes to all of this! I’ve been a Michelle Hurd fan since the early ’90s, too.
I have loved her in her 1 or 2 episodes of Bosch, as well as when she was in Blindspot. Such an underrated actress.
I am sure they would have wanted to add in more with her and Seven… there was a hint of it when they first saw each other. But with the main story, I think they gave her a good-sized role. Maybe it’s open to revisit if there is a spin-off. Lots of great opportunities. Great chemistry with Patrick Stewart, Michael Dorn and Jeri Ryan. LOVED the 2 (Jeri and Michelle) of them in Season 2.
The scene with Troi was perfectly done. That “awkward” little small talk between them since they didn’t know each other.
Agree! Not every moment has to be a big one… that small one was perfection.
Giving Michelle Hurd something to really sink her teeth into, and having the great Michael Dorn to play against has made Raffi into so much more than what she was to start off with. Hats off to Terry for this pairing. It really works for me.
Agree completely. Raff/Worf pairing has been an inspired choice. BTW, I have never enjoyed Dorn more than in this season — his deadpan delivery is a delight.
Definitely in agreement with you, on every point you made!!!!
I greatly respect your opinion, Laurie, but personally, I’ve found her intolerable since day one. She’s a broadly written character portrayed by an over-the-top actor. She had zero chemistry with Picard and everyone else in seasons one and two, especially Seven. So far the only character she’s had any chemistry with, in my opinion, has been Worf–and that’s only because Michael Dorn is so great that he elevates her. Raffi is such a misstep, and I think she’s the worst character any CBS-AA-era show has produced. If President Roslin tossed her out an airlock, I’d be happy.
To each their own. I’ve been a fan of hers for a long time and I have never thought she was over-the-top. I also loved her chemistry with Patrick Stewart, which is why I’ve been hankering to see them talk again. (I had to look up President Roslin… never watched BSG!)
I also love both Michelle Hurd and Raffi. Raffi is the best addition to the Trek universe from Picard. Hurd is such a great actor and brings so much to any character she plays. Listen to some interviews with her and it immediately becomes apparent how much thought goes into all of her acting choices. I could just listen to her talk all day.
She is also a lot of fun in Ash vs Evil Dead season two! 😀
I could not be more impressed with Michelle Hurd’s Raffi. I would love to see Raffi’s roll continued in Star Trek!!!….
Worf and Raffi are likely what saved this season, in my estimation. In a season of fan service, her and Seven stood out….for the better.
“Fan service.” The most overused cliche among fans since “canon.” People use “fan service” as though that’s inherently a bad thing, which it certainly isn’t. And those same fans also complain when shows don’t cater to fans.
Agreed. We’re all fans, so what can be bad about fan service?
Totally agree. There can be an overkill of fan service for sure, but that’s true of anything. But some people act as if putting in things that will make fans happy is a bad thing.
End of the day it will come down to the story. If the story is good and satisfying, nobody will complain about the fan service. If the story is bad and unsatisfying, people will blame it on the fan service (when it’s almost never the case)
The franchise won’t survive if it’s only made for longtime fans.
It can be bad when a show or movie is so inside franchise baseball that new viewers can’t find enough to enjoy.
It’s a fine line.
Many thought Lower Decks would only appeal to established fans. Instead, it seems to be successful in drawing in some newer younger viewers. It has proven enough to stand on its own.
Picard’s first two seasons were very rough in my view. We know they lost subscribers and viewers over time. However, they did bring in some new fans.
These new Picard fans are now venting their own disappointment that the third season is ‘disrespecting’ or at least not acknowledging what came before. I have no way to judge how many people this represents. It would however have been nice to give those new fans enough to make them welcome at the same time as giving TNG fans the resolution they wanted.
Fan service fits here. Up until episode six jumped the shark, I’ve been pretty consistent that as far as fan service goes, cast and crew more then risen to the occasion with the material they have. If we are going to be honest, this story exists only to bring this cast back together around the conference room table. In true Trek tradition, the bad guys are one dimensional and disposable. Had these ten scripts been cast with non-TNG actors, everyone fawning over this season would be back to their usual b**ching about how Alex Kurtzman has ruined Trek…again. Need further fan service evidence? Kirks body at Daystrom Station. Fandom creamed their collective jeans that Kirk was coming back, so much so that Matalas had to walk back that little bit of fan service f**kery.
It is what it is, at this point. And we already know how it ends, as well. All that’s missing are the details.
If I understand the concept correctly, “fan service” can be an issue mainly when it substitutes for creative storytelling. Whether or not you think you think that applies to the current season of “Picard” is, of course, a matter of personal preference. I do tend to agree with you that it’s quickly becoming a fashionable criticism of the moment, and often deployed by those who previously complained that fannish preferences hadn’t been given their due. Making these shows is hard, but I suppose there are worse things than a hard-to-please audience.
We actually need more Raffi…great character!
Like Laurie, I am very emotional and loud when I watch these episodes. I make sure I watch them in the basement when no one else is around to avoid annoying them. I cheered very loud when Worf showed up, cried during the Data/Lore scene, and laughed and cheered when Vadic and crew were blown out to space.
I will also be upset when the show ends in two weeks, I really enjoy re-watching stuff I love, and I know I will re-watch this season many times.
I like to experience my Picard-related emotional outbursts in the living room so everyone can hear me! Ha. I have wept a bunch of times, but for sure my loudest moment was Worf’s rescue of Riker and Troi.
I envy you your enjoyment of this show. Life is short, and often difficult; anything non-lethal that brings you that kind of pleasure has to be good. 😊
There’s so much TV that does this for me! Music and books too. Life is full of these joys to help us all get through the day.
So glad you guys loved this episode as much as I did!
Great Podcast! Excellent analysis.
I want to focus on Riker and Troi. The scene where they are talking about their grief was beautiful. My wife and I had several miscarriages. I know what it is like to be completely helpless in that situation. I wanted to take away the pain or erase the memory or pretend it didn’t happen. It sent us down a dark void and I felt numb. It took awhile for us to take the step out of the void and confront our pain. I will admit crying in that scene. I felt very deeply for both of them. I am happy that the writers did this scene wonderfully and Marina and Jonathon were fantastic. I do believe that Star Trek is at its best when it says something. And this season this crew has things to teach us about our humanity, but also family. Best season for this crew! .
Hi Kevin. I cried in that scene too, and I felt that it was all completely believable and real. (And I’m so sorry about your miscarriages… I had one myself and experienced that grief and numbness too.) I think the Riker and Troi scenes were beautifully done and had some subtlety too, letting the actors play the emotion without having to say everything outright. They’ve never given Frakes and Sirtis material like this on Trek before.
Terry has given these actors and actresses a chance to shine, to show us these characters in a human light. And it’s amazing. I’ve really connected with them and I’m sad it’s going to end soon.
As a spouse, I’d take on more pain just so I could alleviate the pain my spouse was experiencing, so I totally understood Deanna’s motivations to lessen Riker’s pain.
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again, Frakes is absolutely the MVP of this season of Picard. I could easily see him and Terry co-showrunning some sort of Legacy series after Picard.
Spot on about Frakes!
Happy Star Wars Day guys. Love you all.
Is it May the 4th already?
The first day of Star Wars Celebration started in London today.
I wonder if Terry will do something in episode 10 that would be set up to show viewers and execs what the next thing could be. I don’t know if he would do a mid-credits scene or anything like that, but I feel he has more surprises in store to try and set up some sort of continuation, be it Legacy or something else. I have a feeling there are as of yet one or more legacy characters still in store over these last two episodes.
Well there is an answer to all of that, but I guess it would be considered a spoiler. ;)
Nah, Matalas has been talking it up. All some suit at P+ needs to do is order it up.
There is an article linked above where he talks about this. This is something he said to us in his interview last year. The season finale does bring closure to TNG but also sets up what could be another show
Oh and we do know Tuvok will be back at least!
Tim Russ confirmed it on his Twitter page.
Let’s not forget that Changeling Tuvok (Chvok?) dropped the big hint the originals haven’t been offed yet. Cameo’s galore when the great escape happens at some point in the last two episodes.
Oh yeah I assumed he would be back, but it’s nice it was confirmed.
I’m not looking forward to that. We’ve had enough cameos already. It’s a nice itch to scratch, legacy cameos, but a parade of them may get annoying and cloying.
Well I certainly am!
And the guy was captured. It was assumed they would break him out or save him in some way. And he’s the only Voyager character we seen so far.
Yes, you’re easy to please, just dangle a retired actor like a shiny toy, and you’re happy. Me, I want a great show, if there’s going to be callbacks and cameos, they’d better mean something.
Seeing Tuvok show up at the end for a hug means nothing to me. I don’t get misty eyed over nostalgia.
AlphaPredator, again, you’re very annoying at times. You don’t seem to get how off putting your comments are a lot of the time, this is the perfect example. Just because I’m fine with having Tuvok doesn’t mean I’m ‘easy to please’. If that was the case, then I should’ve loved seasons 1 and 2 as well genius. Because IIRC those seasons had multiple legacy actors/characters like Q, Guinan, Data, Hugh, Riker , Troi, Seven and, wait for it, Picard. FYI, he was in all those seasons too. And yet I still thought they not only sucked but some of the worst seasons of Star Trek ever made. And characters like Riker, Seven and Q are some of my biggest favorites. I love Tuvok but he’s not even in my top 10 of favorite characters.
So if that’s all it took then I should’ve loved those seasons too, since they dangled plenty of characters in those seasons, correct? This is how logic works.
Again, this is why you’re so annoying at times. You attack people when they hate something you like but then attack them when they like something you hate and assign them reasons that has zero to do with their reasoning as you tried to do here and failed.
Tell me why you disagree, that’s fine. But don’t pretend like you know why you disagree with me unless I tell you. And then pass it off that you have some superior eye lol. Again, it’s so annoying.
And Tim Russ is not retired, he still acts and in other things. I recently saw him on a new show called Poker Face literally two weeks ago. So gets your facts straight.
I hope you make a few podcasts in the period between Picard and SNW! I always like listening Laurie and Anthony on my weekend walks through the woods. Keep up the good work!
Agreed! The podcast is part of my Saturday and sometimes Friday morning routine. It’s definitely my favorite podcast.
We’re not going to disappear! We may take a week off here and there, but that’s it. We will try to do interviews when we can, and otherwise we’ll find good topics to cover.
I’m also glad that you will keep All Access going indefinitely.
Your commitment to a level of journalistic standards in your news and commentary is very appreciated.
Also as I have mentioned before, is your commitment to good basic audio quality. Listening for an hour or more can be too much like work if there is static or background noice.
Thanks again for the podcast and great discussion. I get such a kick out of hearing your reactions and that you clearly enjoy it as much as I do, is even sweeter.
The Brent Spiner interview was a treat; thanks Tony.
Laurie I know what you mean about shout out loud moments in this episode. I’ve been having them all season; laughs, tears, and everything in between. Worf rescuing Riker and Troi was brilliant and gave me similar feelings of elation to his first appearance back in episode 2 when he rescued Rafi. Like you, I’d like to see more of Michelle Hurd and while unfamiliar with her work outside Picard, think she’s a great actress.
The cast this season has been outstanding. In particular, Jonathan Frakes who in IMO is the best he’s ever been and Todd Stashwick, who’s been phenomenal. I don’t know what might be possible, but I’d love to hear more from him if that’s something you and Tony would be able to do on a future podcast.
I’ve just discovered podcasts recently (TED talks, yeah!!), and I do enjoy yours. I find myself adding talking points when driving.
To your point, that Picard and Data are the same, I’d observe they are not. Both are constructs, but Data is mechanical, while Picard is a biological construct. Offered as evidence, the crew needed to revive Data to interface with, and regain control of the ship. He had all the USB ports, after all. Picard didn’t proclaim, hey, I’m a synth, plug that cable into the back of my head and I’ll regain control of the ship!
IIRC Phil, I was the one that helped you connect to podcasts. But yes they are amazing. I’m still listening to the Delta Flyers (on season 5 now) and listen to this one every week, but listen to a lot of non-Trek podcasts as well.
And excellent point about Picard and Data. Yeah, he sill a machine, just one that now ages. Picard is in a biological body, just constructed by a machine.
As you may know, I am obsessed with the Delta Flyers. (Totally worth spending a few bucks to get the extra material!) And yes, Data and Picard aren’t exactly the same—Picard doesn’t have any ports!—but I think they are still sort of the same kind of creation at this point… their essences as people have been transferred into new and similar bodies. Maybe cousins rather than brothers?
Yeah Delta Flyers is great. I just finished listening to the episode Dark Frontier a day ago and it’s amazing all the new or inside information you get from them with every episode. I actually considered being a Patreon member, it does sound worth it.
I can agree about Picard and Data being closer to ‘cousins’. Honestly I’m surprised they brought up Picard being a synth as much as they have. I assumed it would get one small reference like in season 2 and totally ignored after that.
Someone asked Terry Matalas on twitter why Vadic said it’s “fitting” that Seven was there to watch her and Jack. He responded with a gif that expressed, essentially “duh.”
That seals the theory that it has something to do with the Borg.
I agree and think it’s the Borg too, but didn’t Matalas say at some point that the Borg weren’t involved?
I could be wrong, but I believe he said they wouldn’t appear, not that they weren’t involved.
Too much backstory seems to need to be filled in on Twitter.
Granted that not everything can or should go onscreen, there still seems to be a lot of significant gaps.
lol there’s nothing filled in on twitter that you need to enjoy the show. what we’re talking about isn’t even related to what you’re talking about.
Take your insipid complaints elsewhere.
Let’s get back to the subject of future Star Trek series. I’m fine with strange new worlds and Star Trek legacy. Star Trek academy does not excite me at all. I feel like there would be limited storytelling.
Want to prevent Star Trek fatigue? Keep it at strange new worlds and Star Trek legacy. Don’t need a section 31 series, especially don’t need a Star Trek academy series. I just don’t think it’s going to appeal to anybody.
Interested to hear an explanation of why ‘fatigue’ is a concern.
As long as the new shows are targeted to reach different audiences, I don’t think it would be a thing.
In fact, I’m not convinced it was really a factor in the falling ratings for Voyager and Enterprise. It’s a narrative, I just don’t see the evidence to support it.
For one, UPN tried to build a network on the back of Star Trek. They didn’t have enough stations, and they didn’t have other shows that were interesting. Paramount sacrificed a mass audience for Trek in the hope they could build a new network.
For another, Berman and his creatives may have been losing steam, but then it’s on them and not on the audience. Berman wasn’t willing to take the side swings that Kurtzman has.
We’re now in a different era where a show doesn’t have to have a mass audience to be a success. As long as the niche Trek shows can attract subscribers and link them up to other Paramount content, they will be fine. Paramount doesn’t care whether the audience watches other Trek shows. If the Academy viewers like Avatar, Wolf Pack and Yellowjackets instead, that works just as well.
I have to disagree a little bit and I do think fatigue was certainly part of the issue by the time Enterprise came on because I was becoming a little tired of it by then. And I was one of the people watching it every week live for nearly 15 years, but even I thought it could use a few years break after Voyager. But I also said if I liked Enterprise more out of the gate, I would’ve stuck with it. So I’m not blaming fatigue alone, but yeah it was a factor for me at least.
And it’s easy to say what they should’ve done back then but the problem was DS9 itself probably scared them to doing something radically different after that because at the time fans really were very divided on that show. Again, people seem to forget this today but DS9 was far from the show most fans adored and praised like it is now. The studio basically wiped their hands of it and didn’t really look at it anywhere close to the success TNG was. In fact Michael Dorn in an interview said just a few months ago the entire reason he was brought on was because the studio was alarmed the ratings were falling too fast which isn’t a surprised. But he further and was told the show may be cancelled after the fifth season. He signed on thinking he would just be there for two years and it would be done. But then, kind of like the Seven of Nine situation, once he joined, the ratings shored up a little and there was just more attention given to the show from that point on. Again, ratings were still falling but just not as badly.
But hearing that I think it scared them to do anything radically different from that point on and keep as ‘Roddenberry’ as possible, hence VOY and later ENT. And I have to make it clear I wasn’t one of those fans, I was a huge supporter of DS9 out of the gate. But I had Star Trek friends back then who refused to watch it. It was just too different for some out there and that stuck for a long long time.
But I agree with you about the new shows, A. they don’t need a mass audience to survive like the old shows and B. they can take more chances with them I don’t think the previous era could due to it. I don’t think we would’ve ever gotten shows like Lower Decks or even Prodigy back then, even though both to me feel very Berman-esque, but still too different to put off some fans as they both have. But Prodigy mostly for being dubbed a ‘kids show’ more than anything IMO.
As as the Academy show, we’ll see obviously but at least so far the idea is pretty divisive. But I think part of it is sort of being a spin off of Discovery and not being the Picard spin off. I think most will at least give it a chance.
Nobody is going to watch the Star Trek academy series except a few diehard Star Trek fans. You’re not going to be bringing a new audience in suddenly. Even many of you die Hards complain about the writing, There’s no way you’re going to get teens and people in their 20s watching Star Trek academy.
I love Star Trek but I have not watched any prodigy or lower decks. Not interested in Star Trek cartoons or an academy series, and I have seen every episode of every series, and every movie more times then i can even count. I’m interested in real people, real acting, good stories and good special effects.
If you’re interested in real characters, real acting, good stories, and impressive visuals, I highly recommend Prodigy. It is as Star Trek as a thing can be. Lower Decks is great but if you’re not interested in the comedy, I get it. But try Prodigy! It’s been a huge (and wonderful) surprise.
I agree. Of all the new Star Trek shows, it’s the one that feels the most like Star Trek to me. Maybe it’s a tie with SNW… maybe.
And you could be 100% right. Maybe no one new will care or watch the Academy show. I’m actually not disagreeing with you much there. But regardless, I still think they have to try. Because frankly Star Trek has to get a younger audience as us original fans of TOS and TNG era are now older. Ironically they have been trying this SINCE Enterprise started and then the Kelvin movies and now some of these new shows and it seems to be a mixed bag for sure.
That’s also why I specifically pointed out the animated shows, those two are also meant to appeal to younger and newer audiences but I don’t pretend they are most likely just attracting mostly old Trek fans. LDS is aimed more to teenagers and PRO pre-teens but I have no idea if either are really hitting that demographic. Discovery was also meant to attract newer audiences, but certainly not a younger one lol but I don’t think that did anymore than those either. Sure I think they all got some new fans onboard, but not the masses either. And what I mean is I’m guessing he overwhelming majority of these new shows are people who watched at least some older Trek before.
So I think it’s a needed strategy and I have no issues with that. But I don’t know if it’s really working either because we have zero data on any of it besides vague inferences. And I don’t know a single person watching any of these new shows. The tiny few I do know who watched at least some of it are, not shockingly, old fans.
But I also agree with you for most old fans, yeah they basically want SNW and Picard Season 3 because it’s more Roddenberry/Berman Star Trek. And when people say Berman Star Trek, it’s basically just Roddenberry Star Trek at the end of the day. That’ the model he followed just with more tweaks and to get rid of some of the less popular stuff like humans being more perfect or no conflict etc. Ironically its why some people had issues with DS9 early on, because it went completely against those values which I pointed out. DS9 went against the grain in so many ways, but at its heart its pure Star Trek once you learn to get past those issues. But it took time for some to either recognize that or just get over the issues they had with it. So even then it wasn’t always that cut and dry, but we only had a few shows at a time so your options were very limited.
Today it isn’t, but I understand why you and others may not want to watch the animated shows, but frankly because it’s not made for you directly in mind. Again, that’s the whole point. If you asked most old fans, they would just settle for more TOS, TNG and VOY. But TPTB knows you can only reach mostly old fans with this type of Star Trek and why they are trying to branch out with things like the Academy and the S31 show if that ever reaches the light of day. But then they lose older fans like you in the process because you made it clear you mostly want more of what we got in the past.
In other words, it’s tricky. ;)
But as I said, I don’t know if shaking up the formula is attracting new fans anymore than it is old, but I don’t blame them for trying and think they should even if it doesn’t appeal to me personally; and I like SNW and Picard S3 like a lot of people. But I love the animated shows as well thankfully. And yes, you should listen to Laurie, even if you think LDS is just too silly then give Prodigy a chance. It’s a great show and actually my favorite of the new ones.
Totally disagree. Fatigue was not the issue for Enterprise. Perhaps fatigue on the part of the writers, but not the audience. It struggled due to being a weak show. Audiences may claim it’s fatigue, but if it had been great, people would have tuned in.
That’s the problem with Trek in the 90s: it was rarely high quality TV. It wasn’t great, as much as WE might love it.
Strange, in the 90s I couldn’t even watch all the episodes. I watched sporadically and missed at least half. I re-watched during the pandemic and now it’s my second favorite after DS9. So I can’t disagree with what you’re saying, since I didn’t like the show back then, but I can’t agree either, since I still re-watch episodes today…
“Audiences may claim it’s fatigue, but if it had been great, people would have tuned in.”
Sigh, which I literally said in my post. I’ll repeat it again: “But I also said if I liked Enterprise more out of the gate, I would’ve stuck with it. So I’m not blaming fatigue alone, but yeah it was a factor for me at least.”
OK? I literally made this same point for 20 years now lol. Yes, if I LIKED it more, I would’ve kept watching, agreed. But since it was a prequel, something I hated from the start and I didn’t like first season much, I stopped watching it. But guess what, I also didn’t love the first seasons of TNG or DS9 either but I never thought not to watch because I was still happy just to have more Star Trek. By this point, I felt I had enough lol.
Again, it’s not completely binary, it’s a mixture of many things, I’m only saying fatigue was part of it for me. Because today I watch that show tons now. But back then I didn’t give it the chance I gave the others and I originally thought TNG was way worse. I also thought first season of DIS was worse than ENT first season easily but I was more invested because I wanted more Star Trek again and it was new. But if I had the same feelings with DIS back in 2001 as I did ENT, I would’ve stopped watching that too. That’s the only point I’m making.