The data is in for the season three (and series) finale of Star Trek: Picard and the show has appeared for the third time on Nielsen’s streaming charts. Also, fan momentum for a spin-off series continues as the petition for Legacy hits a new milestone.
Picard moves up the list
Last week Star Trek: Picard appeared for the second time on Nielsen’s chart of the top 10 original streaming shows in the USA, this was based on viewership during the week of the ninth episode. Today Nielsen released their chart for the week of the finale (April 17-23) and Picard shows up at number 9.
Nielsen uses millions of minutes viewed for their ranking, and Picard jumped from 276 last week to 400 million this week, or a 39% increase. This is the third appearance for Picard, and only the fourth appearance of any original Paramount+ series since Nielsen added the streaming service to their rankings earlier this year. The only other Paramount+ original to make the chart was one appearance of the Yellowstone prequel 1923 in March.
Support for Legacy spin-off grows
Picard showrunner Terry Matalas and members of the cast (including the TNG vets) have been vocal in their hopes for a spin-off series, which would be titled Star Trek: Legacy and be set on the USS Enterprise-G under the command of Captain Seven (Jeri Ryan). We have previously reported on a petition supporting this idea, including when the week after the finale it passed 32,000, which was the same level of support as a previous petition received calling for a show with Captain Pike and the USS Enterprise after season 2 of Discovery. Support for the Legacy petition has grown, and this week it passed the 50,000 signature mark, currently approaching 52,000.
Captain Seven herself has shown her appreciation for the fans, with Jeri Ryan yesterday saying, “You guys are unreal” when sharing the news about the petition passing 50,000.
Holy crap, over 50,000 signatures and climbing! You guys are unreal…! 👊🏼🖖🏼❤️#StarTrekLegacy https://t.co/5cf965SNqB
— Jeri Ryan (@JeriLRyan) May 17, 2023
Hope for Legacy?
Even before the WGA strike, Terry Matalas made it clear that there was no development underway for the Legacy show. There were many factors that lead to CBS/Paramount giving Star Trek: Strange New Worlds a green light, and fan support for the idea was acknowledged as one of the factors by executive producer Alex Kurtzman. Last month Kurtzman said he heard fans “loud and clear” when it comes to their calls for Star Trek: Legacy. However, with two active live-action Star Trek shows (Strange New Worlds and Starfleet Academy) and a TV movie (Section 31), it will take a lot more than a fan petition to get Paramount+ to give another Trek show a greenlight, especially as the company has cut back on spending over the last year, following the industry-wide trend towards cost-cutting and focus on profit.
The Nielsen numbers (and Paramount’s own internal metrics) are likely key factors in any evaluation. It will be worth watching to see how season 2 of Strange New Worlds performs when it debuts in June. Of course, with the ongoing WGA strike showing no signs of ending soon, no development work on any series can even take place. Later in the year the streamer could take a closer look at their plans for the Star Trek franchise and decide if the Legacy show can find a place.
Keep up with news about the Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com.
I mean at this point in time it would be dumb for them not to capitalize on this wave and ride it out.
Personal opinion, they jumped the gun on announcing starfleet academy. They were trying to latch onto Picard’s success when they announced it but I don’t think they quite knew just how much the fans would want a proposed legacy show and really, shame on them for not being forward thinking enough especially since they just canceled discovery and the general assumption is that starfleet academy will be set in that time period. They just are not making smart moves.
SFA had been in development before S3 of Picard aired.
And SFA isn’t meant for legacy fans.
It’s meant to attract new ones.
Nostalgia, legacy characters and fan service will only get you so far. Trek needs to attract new audiences or the franchise will stagnate even further than it already has. That’s just business. Hence the Starfleet Academy show.
I totally agree Trek needs to attract new audiences but isn’t part of the point of this articles that legacy characters and nostalgia pushed Trek into the top 10 in the ratings?
There is no logic behind that statement. First, Paramount was supposed to start sharing its metrics for publication at the first of the year. They delayed this. They only started the week where 1923 aired its last episode.
So we the public (versus the suits at Paramount) only have data for one episode of 1923 (where it did better then any episode of Picard, by a significant margin), this season of Picard (3 data points specific to the show, and 7 weeks where we know it did at least worse then the lowest number of the top ten), and then we had one other Paramount release in that same time frame, the Kiefer Sutherland show, which like 7 episodes of Picard we know it did worse then the lowest released each week on the top ten list, but nothing more specific then that.
Statistically that actually gives us almost no real data for any real comparisons to how Picard’s performance compares to not only any other Trek shows, but the vast bulk of Paramount Plus original productions.
Even viewers of original Trek had more available data to gauge the performance of TOS versus anything else at the time then we have for streaming Trek.
Trying to use what data we have and make any comparative statements about the rest of Trek or the rest of the slate of Paramount plus is utter folly at least with almost no real data points to compare.
We do know though, from Paramount themselves, that Picard beat Disovery in streaming numbers on CBS All Access and then SNW surpassed Picard. Until Season Three, where Picard then became their breakout smash. They’ve been open about giving some vague metrics (and yes, this is vague).
So while we don’t have exact data, we do know that both Picard and SNW have outperformed Discovery by a fair margin. So we have some rough data at least.
Which is why it’s not a shock DIS was cancelled. It was already the older show and was getting more expensive by being older. And now that it’s being viewed less than SNW and PIC (which should surprise absolutely no one lol), then another reason why it was easier to let it go.
I’m not one of these people who only view things by what I like or hate, this was always just a no-brainer once we learned Paramount was tightening things financially.
Now we still may not get a spin off show either (which I have also said) if Paramount is doing that badly. But I think given the ratings and huge praise for this show probably puts it on the table at least for future development. I mean how can it not be now?
Actually we don’t know for sure. I’ll use an example. When SNW premiered they announced that it was the strongest premiere for Trek on their platform. That can actually have multiple meanings. And as long as one of them is accurate they don’t violate the law. For example, Picard and Discovery both could have had larger oriented (I doubt it but it’s statistically possible), and the statement could be true. Because neither of those shows premiered on Paramount +, both were technically CBS All Access. That’s just one of the many ways a statement without numbers needs to be looked at. And of course the fact that each year(with the possible exception of this one) has had a larger us and world wide subscriber base. So even a direct comparison between Paramount and CBS All Access should favor the newer releases for at least possible audience numbers.
Most official investment statements have enough legal wiggle room if not backed up with specific numbers.
Yep this is a good point as well. That’s the problem with all these vague statements, especially without any hard data, it could literally mean anything. My former life was in PR, I spent a lot of time trying to make bad news sound good and good news sound great.
That said I wouldn’t be shocked if both PIC and SNW did better considering all the fanfare both got and also SNW just being the new kid on the block.
100% agreed. I don’t think Discovery has flopped but ultimately, I can totally see it being the lowest performer of the three live actions, both when it was on CBS and on P+.
This doesn’t translate to disastrous numbers but when cuts are being made, you zero in on the show returning the least.
Yes, and the more legacy character and over the top fan service they sledgehammer into Trek like Matalas did, the harder it will be for older fans to accept new characters, and young fans will have lost interest by then anyway.
I totally disagree with this. I love seeing the old characters and love having new characters too. Best example is Lower Decks. I loved all those characters after the first season and Tendi is now one of my fan favorites. Look how excited fans are about the crossover episode with SNW.
And I’m super excited for T’Lyn to appear on Lower Decks. Fans loved her after just appearing in one episode.
And can you tell me one show that didn’t just have both of them? You make it sound like fans can’t cope with new crew members or something when others here mentioned how beloved Shaw became after just one episode.
I mentioned Shaw and T’Lyn as break out stars after their first appearance but here are others like Saavik, Seven of Nine, Shran, Lorca, Q, Weyoun or Pike. I know, I know Pike is a old character but it was one episode literally 50 years ago and Mount’s Pike is really nothing like the original at all. He would’ve still been adored if they named him Thomas. In fact I don’t like the original Pike at all. The guy was a sexist jerk. The point is fans can make a character an instant fan favorite even if they still show up around the legends like Saavik and Shaw first did.
I don’t think this is a big worry. Most fans seem to have no problems with both. Just make good characters and fans will happily want to see more of them.
For how long is the question.
A younger unknown cast could be less expensive in actors’ salaries.
If they do set it in DSC era, the sets are able to be reused.
The only legacy character is Seven though, right? The others are all new characters introduced in Picard, Season 3 (and maybe Season 1 and 2 if they bring back Elnor and Kestra Troi-Riker.)
Exactly!! These arguments are so weird. Guys, the TNG cast is NOT going to be on the show, at least as the main cast. The only full time returning legacy character is Seven along with Raffi as the only other returning character from the Picard show itself. Everyone else is new, so what’s the issue?? SNW has six, six legacy characters who are part of the main cast and around a half dozen recurring legacy characters on top of that. And IIRC, they said more will be introduced in season 2, so what are we missing?? And I have no big issues with any of this. It’s mostly just canon issues more than anything but I read on the other thread discussing Kirk they are going to basically squeeze in whoever they want regardless, so yeah.
And I hate to break it to people, fans want to see legacy characters. The ratings for this show proves that and probably why three of the shows, PIC, PRO and SNW all starred a legacy character.
I realise that fans only care about seeing legacy characters. That shows how much trouble Trek is in atm.
I disagree. Fans want well written Trek more along lines of what we saw in the 1990s.
Only that’s not true. Ask all the fans who love PRO and LDS. Those shows are filled with mostly new characters and fans love them.
I will admit having Janeway on Prodigy made me more interested in the show because it was a kids show. But I was going to give it a chance no matter what and grew to love them. Not as much as my Lower Deckers but still great.
Old characters certainly bring more attention or excitement to a show but fans just care about good characters. It’s the reason why so many like the old characters because most of them were good and stayed popular because of it.
There seems to be a MAJOR rift in Trek fandom over the DISCO universe and “vintage” ST. I am jot a fan of DISCO and think seasons 1 & 2 of Picard were awful. But S3 was quite good. Prodigy & LD are fine, while I find SNW to be OK. I have no interest in Starfleet Academy. For Trek to grow, it has to be actual ST. Good Trek about exploring strange new worlds will bring in an audience. You don’t have to fill a show with young people for younger ones to like it.
Yeah I don’t think just putting in young characters for the Academy show will suddenly make young people like it. Maybe more attractive for some but it still has to be good. But we’ll see.
But yes, there has been a divide with some of the fan base between the classic Trek shows and movies (TOS-ENT) and the modern stuff (everything post-2009). The same thing is happening with Star Wars between the original Lucas films vs the newer Disney content. Funny how that works out.
And I certainly agree you don’t need to put young people on a show just to get younger people to like it since I’m guessing most people here were either kids or teenagers when they got into Star Trek and all those shows had mature adults on them. Kids fell in love with shows like TOS and TNG because they saw smart adults solving complex problems. I am hoping with the Academy show we have a lot more adults as well as cadets though.
And I totally understand why you don’t like the idea. I’m more positive about it, but there is probably a reason why it took so long to finally get an Academy show or movie because fans were never begging for one. Hopefully it will surprise people if it actually gets made.
Hey bro took your advice and started watching The Night Agent. You were right it’s really good. Halfway through season 1 now.
legacy would still attract a new audience, the show is not just about legacy characters at all.
I disagree. The only way to bring in new viewers is to do exactly what Abrams and Kurtzman did: They changed Star Trek. Now, its not Star Trek. Trek has always had a niche audience. Its a thoughtful, intellectual sci-fi adventure show using allegory to talk about issues. Its not supposed to be “cool”. Geek culture has been hijacked. I’m almost 50. I remember going to Trek conventions (when they were JUST Star Trek conventions) as a kid, and when you walk in there, and I mean this lovingly, you are in a room with the biggest nerds in the world. And guess what? I fit right in, because I didn’t have a lot of friends as a kid, didn’t really fit in anywhere, and I wanted to be Captain Kirk. Its a show about the BEST OF THE BEST going out into space to explore and discover, while running into aliens that have issues. Star Trek was never cool, and true Trekkies love it that way, because it was OURS. It was custom made for a certain type of person. It wasn’t made for people who like Marvel, or Star Wars, explosions, one-liners, and ADHD editing. Trek was literary and artistic. With the exception of Picard season 3 (where the characters once again act like professional officers), Star Trek is now the CW in space.
I disagree the newer stuff is CW in space. I think there is a reliance on too much melodrama at times and some of the characters can be a bit more mature but they still solve problems exactly the way the older shows did. What’s funny about a show like LDS for example is you do have these comedic and definitely less mature characters but they are all still smart as a whip. Rutherford and Tendi are some of the best officers around. While I’m not a huge fan of Tilly I can say the same about her too. Everyone on SNW is also very smart and able, they are just a bit more relaxed than what you would find on TOS or TNG.
But I understand why you don’t like some of the newer shows and movies but I think they still try to present hard and complex concepts like the classic shows. But yes I’ve said myself I do wish the characters can be more serious and stop all the crying like you get on Discovery. Again, you had people cry and emotional on every show but DIS takes it to extremes. OK, maybe I’m not making argument as strong as I originally thought I was lol.
YEEEEEAAAAH BABY!!!! 😎
Such great news! It not only got higher views, it’s now over 50,000 signatures. SNW got up to 30,000 and SNW was already the most signed Trek petition on that site and this beats that by over 20 thousand and stil going. Way to go Trekkies! 😀
This video sums up how so many of us felt (and still feeling). I cry every time.
NOW GIVE US THE LEGACY SHOW KURTZMAN!
I LOVE that video!!! Where was that? And was that Terry Crews?
That video is crazy man! 😂
I spotted it a day ago and had to post. It’s not real though, someone just altered the footage with other events but it geta the point across how a lot of else felt seeing the E-D again.
Yeo, definitely Terry Crews. I don’t know what show it’s for though.
Ya I figured it wasn’t real. I mean that crowd is way too huge and of course no one would be wearing sports reporting headphones and stuff at a convention lol! But yeah I still loved the video!
Yeah it’s definitely fun to watch. I read a lot of the comments on it and a lot people were expressing that’s how the felt when the E-D appeared. It’s great when fans are genuinely happy and feel pretty united and not complaining or bitter about something as we are more times than I like to admit lol.
This video was hilarious. I watched it 5 times straight lol. It really does hit the right sentiment to what a fans were feeling. And I saw that first hand watching the finale on IMAX with other fans. You really saw and felt this response from so many other people in that theater. We had all seen the episode where they got back on the D a week earlier and yet people were emotional once again watching that scene play out.
And the clip of Terry Crews is from the show America’s Got Talent. I know it well because my girlfriend is obsessed with it lol. I probably only seen a half hour of it total but she loves it and never miss an episode when it’s on.
Actually I have seen that show before but like 1 or 2 episodes in the first season. But Crews wasn’t on it then or least the episodes I watched.
Yeah, Crews is a newer host. Too lazy to look up when he joined the show but I want to say at least 3-4 years. Tyra Banks was the original host in the beginning.
I do remember Tyra Banks there.
I grew up with TOS, so here are my thoughts.
Raffi, 7 and the two next next generation characters would be fantastic for a spin-off show.
What an ideal transition from TNG & Picard to 7 and Raffi.
Always room to bring back original TNG characters from time to time.
Now, how about stopping all the whinging, complaining and criticism and give these SUPER Star Trek writers encouragement and ideas to push forward in their and our journey where no one has gone before.
These writers have made very few mistakes in their journey to provide us mortals with unbelievable future timelines and possibilities that we may one day see as reality.
I won’t lie to you but for a long time I felt like a NuTrek hater. None of the new stuff was grabbing me. And Picard, the show I knew I was going to love let me down the most…until this season.
Now the last few years have been the opposite. LDS, PRO, SNW and finally Picard have been amazing. None of it is perfect, but man what a turnaround. Just a lot of great Trek recently! 😀
I used to want to find and burn Kurtzman’s car out of protest. Now I want to take him to dinner as a thank you. 😁
And if they give us the Legacy show, I’m set. I could just watch LDS and PRO alone and I’m happy. I’m a 24th century fan. Everything else on top of those is a bonus. But the Legacy show would be the biggest show for me since DS9 and VOY went off the air!
Let’s keep the ride going Paramount and make the show a huge part of the fan base clearly wants! LET’S GOOOOO!
I grew up with TOS as well and I agree with all of this. Now I’ve always been a glass half full type of fan meaning I’ve always found something to love in every show and movie series even if I’m still critical. And I didn’t love this season at the level others obviously did but it’s still easily one of the best seasons of the modern shows bar none. You can tell how much love the season was made with and probably why the response is so high for it.
And if they make a spin off I am excited to have new characters but if we’re very lucky some of the TNG characters will drop in to say hello from time to time. ;)
For me who started the show with Voyager and became a big fan of Seven and my first episode of Star Trek was literally her first episode, it shouldn’t be a shock why I want the Seven show.
But it’s all so surreal. I never thought I would ever see Ryan playing her again and now they built a spin off around her.
It’s just amazing she was able to come back at all.
It’s not up to Kurtzman, if it was, you wouldn’t get Legacy, or you wouldn’t get it in the way you want it. His bosses will decide, and it’s very likely that this writers strike will make Paramount+ a little more careful to produce shows which are sure things – that means SFA will probably die and SNW and Legacy will be the shows going forward. The bosses and stockholders at Paramount will look at the numbers and decide.
I like the way you think Martin, we should be friends! 😄
People keep saying SFA is for ‘new’ fans but we know most people who will be watching are old Trekkies from boards like here.
I said this somewhere else but the newbies don’t stay loyal. They don’t put in the money and commitment like we do or they would probably be the fifth JJ verse movie coming out tgis year.
Paramount knows the old fans will be watching it over and over when it’s good and probably why Picard got such high ratings this year.
Paramount’s financials are in a mess right now, and the stock tanked at the beginning of the month. It’s hard to see them making any major investments in the near term, and that may well mean some Trek is on the cutting block, too.
Nostalgia can only carry a franchise so far. I’ve seen enough of these characters, and I’m perfectly fine with this being their last regular appearances. Will I watch Legacy if it happens? Likely, but I’m not looking forward to or hoping it happens. Picard was all nostalgia and schlock over substance, and I’ve seen enough. Let TNG rest in peace already.
It’s not about the next generation though…it’s about the next next generation. Riker or Worf isn’t Captain, it’s Seven with a young crew of officers…and Raffi is there.
That’s why this is a great idea, you don’t have to involve the TNG cast directly, it’s an entire new crew on the next Enterprise.
Not sure why people think this will be Picard season 4. It will be mostly new characters.
People didn’t watch Picard for the new characters…
No, but they grew attached to them and are aware that a spinoff would be focused on 7 and her crew. They were as integral to the story as the legacy characters. Terry Matalas seamlessly introduced new characters that viewers actually responded and grew attached to and that’s no small feat.
Would we see some familiar faces from time-to-time? Sure. Would they be the focus of the series? No.
Yeah, it’s no different than SNW, Prodigy and the first two seasons of Picard which is a mix of old and new characters. How is this suddenly a problem lol.
And most fans seem to like all the new characters, especially Shaw that Matalas already said he’s bringing back.
Maybe Seven will find his Katra and take his body to Chicago to reintegrate them! 😂
So you don’t want a show with old characters but you don’t think they will watch a show with new characters either??
And Seven is there who will be the lead which is a legacy character but not TNG either so it works out right in the middle! 😀
Granted but Seven herself isn’t a new character and I would argue she would have almost if not just as much as pull drawing in audiences as Picard did in PIC S1. Love or hate Voyager, Seven was almost universally beloved from that show from what I have seen in the past. Also, at least 2 other characters have familial ties to TNG characters which makes them nostalgic to say the least.
I did. A lot of people did. I know that because, shockingly, people actually did seem to like other characters on it not named Picard like Rios, Soji, Raffi, Elnor and definitely Shaw. Now YMMV personally but all these characters had their fans.
I also remember at the start of season 2 when we saw the characters on the Stargazer, fans were excited over the possibility of a spin off for that show and was openly proclaiming they now wanted a Rios/Stargazer show. It wasn’t that long ago, literally just a year ago lol. There are hundreds of posts here and thousands in other places where people talked about this idea. I was also one of them.
Nothing changed, people were talking about a Seven show with new characters the second the trailer was shown for season 3 of Picard. Obviously fans were infatuated with the idea of seeing the TNG cast again but they are gone now, so people are now talking about the Seven show with new characters and what that can bring. Shaw became a huge fan favorite and so much so people were genuinely pissed when he was killed off, yes?
So I actually don’t agree with your statement. Fans actually DID want to see and even like other characters, they just wasn’t as much of a focus in season 3 for obvious reasons. But when the Enterprise G warped out, fans were deeply excited about the possibilities and not a single TNG character was on that bridge. ;)
….all of whom happen to be kids of the next generation.
Two characters. The rest are just new people.
Raffi sucks, I can’t stand her. I was glad she was not in 2 of the episodes in season 3.
This take sums up your username so perfectly. We get a bisexual black lady who was in a relationship with another woman and yet I still see this take everywhere when she was plenty interesting. This take is old and boring and now you probably won’t be seeing her again, congratulations.
How on Earth does her sexuality and race factor into being a good character?
Because representation is representation, even if the writers can’t write women worth a shit. That’s not her fault. She had the potential to be interesting and the writers screwed it up.
Also I won’t be rejecting any representation I can get from Trek. I waited so long to get canon LGBT characters so I’m gonna hoard them all and treasure them.
Also you’re in the majority here. This take is everywhere and old.
I’m not sure I follow here. You argued she was interesting and then blamed the writers for screwing up her potential and making her not interesting.
I will say representation for representation’s sake isn’t enough in 2023, so LGBT+ characters need to feel like fleshed out people. I actually don’t think Raffi feels like a token, she’s just a bit grating at times. Great double act with Worf though.
I didn’t say she wasn’t interesting. I said it’s not her fault the writers didn’t know how to write her. She was still interesting to me despite that.
I do agree there and I have actually complained about that many times. I’m taking what I can get and I’m saying that they could be written better, developed more, etc., but at the same time I’m just glad I’m getting it at all.
Gotcha. The way you worded that confused me.
I’m going to defend Boring One here. He’s not getting on her case for being black or queer, he just thought the character sucked. And LOTS of people did. I also thought she sucked, especially in season 2.
And he never suggested they can’t have OTHER queer minorities on the show, he was simply saying this one is not great. I think when we go down that slope of saying we can’t criticize a character because they are a minority, it’s no better than people criticizing a character for simply being one. But that’s not what he was saying either.
Raffi seems to be a controversial character for many reasons even if others like her. As I said, I had problems with her too. I’m not gay, but I am black so I’m judging the overall character. Now all that said like others I do think she was much better this season, but they clearly just had better writers and did a much better job using her.
I’m sorry if I came across as saying you can’t criticize her for those reasons. What I meant is that this take is old and tiring. It’s everywhere and it doesn’t really matter so much now that she might not be back at all. And for me as a member of the LGBT community it’s especially old.
On the flip side, she might be better written if she does come back.
I’ve been manic for a bit now, haven’t been sleeping well and until today I hadn’t eaten since Tuesday but those things don’t excuse my posts.
Ok no worries Gritizens. And yeah anytime someone shouts something WOKE, my eyes rolls hard. GTFOI!! And yes, some people didn’t like Raffi and Seven being gay. But again, I do think for some, it was the half-ass way they put them together. That was worse than how they threw Seven and Chakotay together.
And they never had any real chemistry. It was another thing I thought Matalas did sooo much better and just had the characters focused on the mission and not work out their relationship problems as they are trying to hunt down a Borg Queen in the middle of downtown L.A.
Yeah I don’t like Hot Mess Raffi either but ahe was a lot better in season 3 IMO.
I didn’t like her in the first 2 seasons but she was a badass in season 3.
But who actually cares about those new characters?
Will old TNG from the 90s really be drawn in to see the ‘kids-of’ their heroes with the promise of cameos?
I don’t know that Seven will be enough of a draw for others. My kids were enthusiastic Voyager fans as tweens, but as teens they’ve heard nothing about Picard that interests them to watch. And they refused to watch season three at all.
As I pointed out to another poster, lots of people do man. Did you NOT see how much of a fan favorite Shaw became? And you obviously know that because me and you spent the entire season talking about how excited people were about the guy. People literally seemed relieved to know he was going to stick around through most of the season. And shockingly he was liked because he was the most developed new character in the season which tells you what? When they gave more attention to a new character, fans actually did care, right? So I don’t buy this argument. It’s sooooo myopic.
Guys, seriously, the new show will focus on the new characters. And guess what, there will probably be even MORE new characters we haven’t met yet on the show. There could be another Shaw waiting in the wings as well (or according to Matalas, literally the same Shaw lol, but welcome to Star Trek ;)). All that is a possibility too right?
I don’t understand this mentality, as if Star Trek fans haven’t spent literally decades learning to love new characters? IIRC people were convinced no one was going to ever love the TNG characters because the TOS characters were so beloved. That certainly didn’t age well. So I think the characters on a spin off will be just fine once they spend time developing them more.
And no offense to your kids but they don’t have to like every show man lol. I mean if this is your barometer, it’s a wrong one frankly. I’m just being honest because, you have heard me say this over and over and over again and why these discussions just gets very frustrating for me. They have made it abundantly clear ALL these shows are meant to attact different demographics. So what’s the problem?? Some shows are just made for certain fans in mind. That’s why there so many of them. Prodigy isn’t meant to appeal to adults like other shows do. Totally fine. DIS seems to bend more to women than men, especially the last two seasons lol. Again, totally fine IF that’s the case. LDS is obviously made for teens and young adults and not people over 40 or 50 and not surprising this group can’t get into the show. Again because ITS NOT MADE FOR YOU!! That’s the point.
In 2017, it was just Discovery. Now we have multiple shows on, many that were made to grab people who wasn’t watching Discovery, yes? Do people think Lower Decks is meant for everyone? SNW may be the most open Trek show, but it still seems to be mostly old fans into that show too and it’s obviously made with them in mind like Picard was.
So I think it’s OK, if the Legacy show attracts more older fans because guess what, wasn’t that was the point of Picard???? Do people seriously think they tapped a nearly 80 year actor play a role he hasn’t in nearly 20 years to grab the 18-35 year olds lol. Sure maybe some, but obviously the show was made for people who grew up and knew the character. The funny thing is I remember people saying the show wasn’t being made for hardcore Star Trek/TNG fans but for Stewart fans lol. Considering 90% of Stewart fans are fans because they discovered him on TNG first, this argument never held up.
My only point is they already made a show that was meant to tap into the old fanbase. It was called Picard. So are people shocked now they want to make a show that continue tapping into those fans? Um, why?
And guys lets not kid ourselves. All these shows are overwhelmingly watched by old fans. Everyone seems to know and acknowledge that are we wouldn’t have so many legacy characters on all these sows like we do today. I have said this many times, I don’t know a single person who has never watched Trek before watching any of these shows. The overwhelming discussion about ANY of them comes from old fans, right? Maybe Prodigy is a special exception but pretty much everyone online, including here, are people who has been watching it for decades already.
I’m certainly not saying new fans aren’t watching them, but then you have to wonder where is any of the passion or excitement from them because it’s certainly not anywhere online from what I can see. The fact that the petition has gotten over 50,000 signatures tells you something very important about the old fanbase and that they are active and highly engaged and Paramount obviously knows that, hence why we got Picard season 3 in the first place.
I love them, but I’d be fine if the TNG characters never appeared again in a Legacy series or anywhere else. Matalas went to a lot of trouble to give those characters the grand send-off that they deserved but never had, a send-off that was beautifully realized! Thus I humbly think those characters should stay sent-off, otherwise it just sort of deflates the wonderful S3 ending we just saw. It would be like a big farewell party for a house guest who never actually leaves. That said, if TNG characters did make cameos in a Legacy show, it wouldn’t bother me and I wouldn’t hold it against the show; I’m not that kind of fan…
Exactly. Matalas literally set it up that way. The guy gave 500 interview explaining the spin off show isn’t about Geordi or Data, but what comes after them. He did an amazing job making it clear the next show is NOT about these people. That’s why Q showed up to confront Jack, that the next trial is setting up the new characters. It couldn’t be anymore symbolic and yet you would think the show will be about Riker, Worf, Data and Troi on the Titan B or something the way people are going on about it.
Tiger2, Shaw was great!
And in a Twitter poll by Matalas fans voted him the best captain of the season.
But they killed him off like Hemmer and all and any of the ideas to bring Shaw back, but not really as an alive human, just sound completely lame.
The finale didn’t propose a show where the principal character would be Seven.
No, Legacy was clearly pitched to be with Jack as principal character and Speleers at the top of the call sheet.
I just don’t see the love and excitement out there for that character.
I don’t think anyone is disputing the potential market for a show that carries on franchise into the 25th century in a way that hits the unmet demand of Berman-era fans, especially if it’s ship-based.
But what I don’t see is that the ensemble we were left with, to be anchored by a ‘chosen one’ type ensign is really what those casual 90s fans will show up for.
By the way, I know very well my kids aren’t the only teens out there in the world. But they are more real than the imaginary abundance of new young fans that older fans here seem to wish to believe were drawn in to watch Picard S3.
They’re also teens who still have enough attachment to the franchise to have their Eaglemoss ships on display in their rooms. If they aren’t a target youth market, who is?
I’m more than interested to hear counter information. If anyone else knows young people under 25 who were watching Picard, it would be great to hear.
They can always make another appealing character LIKE Shaw right? I remember when Lorca was killed off and some people acted (at the time) that there was never going to be another fan favorite like him and the next season we got Pike. I’m only saying that if you make a good character once, you can probably do it again.
And Matalas has said Shaw will come back if the show happens, how and why, we’ll see if it ever gets that far.
I have no idea how you think Seven wouldn’t be the principle character? Again, until someone says otherwise, I’m going to guess she will be the main lead unless they do another Lower Decks situation.
It’s a lot of assumptions for a show that probably won’t happen for years even if it got picked up tomorrow. I don’t think any of this is a big deal because A. we don’t know exactly what they will ultimately do and B. yeah, they can just change stuff. This just seems a little odd to be wringing your hands over. If things go exactly as you say and fans think it SUCKS, then they will make changes as they do every show. I’m not trying to just hand wave your concerns, but there has now been TEN shows, many that fans took to right away and others that needed more time. And practically all of them got retooled enough when people complained, right? In this case, there is not even a pilot script made yet, so it’s really hard to worry about stuff at this level yet if this is your biggest concern, that’s all.
And I’m happy your kids love as much Trek as they do. But none of this is a contest. They are going to make MANY shows unless Paramount+ just dies off or something. Some people will like, others that they won’t. That’s really it.
And I’ve supported EVERY show e-x-c-e-p-t the Section 31 show (and that was mostly because I don’t like Georgiou and I hated how they did it on DIS, but I had zero issues in the idea of a show itself) and the Khan show (ugh). I hated everything about that lol. But the only show to this day I was completely against. And even then I would’ve rolled my eyes but still gave it a shot if it did get approved.
As far as this show, you seem to constantly pit ‘old’ fans as if it’s some kind of bad thing. I really really wish you would stop doing that. What I mean is I’m guessing there were probably potential shows you wanted while others probably expressed why they didn’t like it, I doubt they made you or others feel like you did something bad for simply wanting it…unless was Khan, OK I’ll stop now lol.
But they’re just TV shows some people like to see. It’s not to ruin your day. You can certainly not want it just like I hated the Khan show idea (ugh), but I wasn’t angry about it or thought others were evil who did want it.
Chances are this show may not ever happen, but if it does, maybe just maybe it will surprise you and others.
“They can always make another appealing character LIKE Shaw right?”
Yeah, they can introduce Shaw’s son, Ensign Shaw, Jr, fresh from the Academy. Would fit right in thematically…
I don’t think Shaw had a family though.
Jean Luc didn’t either until season 3…
Great point! 😂
And like the son of another past Starship commander, after Shaw’s graduation and promotion, he did a stint on Delta IV, where he’ll meet the E’s next navigator …
This is the kind of thing that’s easy to say on paper (rather like “I support another Indiana Jones film if it’s GOOD!!!”), but that is a real challenge in practice.
As Frakes once said, what TNG did was “lightning in a bottle.”
But the creation of Shaw proves they can make good characters?
And if you’re argument is that’s an extreme exception, that doesn’t bold well for any future show but I know you haven’t been onboard with most of the new stuff.
It’s almost as if…Wesley Crusher were the main character. *Shudder.*
If you can get fans to care about animated ensigns on a comedic sgoe, I’m not sure how hard this will be? I don’t love Jack but I do love Sidney LaForge.
I was really liking Tveen until she was killed off. 😥
I keep seeing this pop up as though it’s some sort of trump card. All Trek properties at this point are nostalgia plays. Even Discovery couldn’t resist, and that’s the most original Star Trek show since The Original Series.
It is a trump card – this potential legacy show has nothing solid to build on. Picard was almost completely nostalgia, with fanfic level, plot hole filled writing. People are crying out for more overwrought sophomoric nostalgia, but it won’t sustain the franchise. Soon, there won’t be an audience that fondly remembers the nostalgia. When they age out, where does Trek go from there? It’s my contention it’s time to explore again, and let 90s TV live on – in reruns.
Which is why we need a new show that isn’t legacy to go back to the gamma quadrant and finish exploring there now that the Dominion is defeated and on their way to becoming friends. I’m not asking for a DS9 reunion or anything like that, as far as I’m concerned i don’t need a DS9 reunion. All that I want is the gamma quadrant. And the Vorta. With as many new characters as possible.
Completely onboard with this too! 👍
There are so many directions they can go in now.
Like so many (cough all cough) of the gamma quadrant species, Vorta were so interesting but barely developed. I want to see them learn to be something else now and I want to see them thrive. I want to give them all of the kava nuts and rippleberries they want and see if they want to try other fruit from the alpha quadrant. I just really love them.
Also damn there’s so much of the gamma quadrant to explore now. Go back and revisit a few worlds that we did see. Go visit more ones that we didn’t see in DS9. Learn what it’s like there now that the Dominion has been defeated and are changing. Develop legacy species, invent new ones. So so much there.
Just like I’m happy Prodigy is back in the Delta Quadrant, we definitely need a show that can focus directly on the Gamma Quadrant. It would be cool to see how things have changed there post-Dominion War.
I want a show like prodigy for that. Especially when Kathryn Janeway was just to support the new characters and their growth and really only stepped in when they needed the help. Otherwise they were left to learn and grow and get out situations on their own.
Something like that that just focuses on the Gamma Quadrant would be so much fun. And if they need a legacy character to come bail them out hopefully not too often, you can get someone from DS9 like Bashir. I would say Odo but 😮💨. But honestly I hope that’s not needed at all.
Bro there are five shows on. You can just pick and choose. And the show will be exploring again. That’s why so many want it.
It has at least enough to build on as Strange New Worlds did, and that series was backdoor piloted by Discovery season two. I like the youthful hyperbole, though (“overwrought sophomoric”). Keep pitching the take. It’s getting closer and closer to making sense.
A popular established character lead plus 1-3 well-received newer supporting characters onboard the Enterprise having adventures and catching up with some familiar old characters along the way. Am I describing a Star Trek: Legacy show or Star Trek: Strange New Worlds?
Yes, I am.
That said, Legacy would need a deeper premise than SNW.
Matalas has made the case there’s a market for a 25th ship-based show.
I don’t think there’s any disputing that.
The question, as you say, is around what really be the premise for the show and is it viable without the TNG legacy cast there as regulars.
So far, I feel that Legacy is being pitched as a nostalgia tour focused on ‘kids-of’ Legacy characters.
Seven might be captain, but Jack Crusher was presented in the finale as the principal character going forward.
Not Seven. This would be (like Discovery) Jack Crusher’s journey to command.
Beyond the age-inappropriateness and other casting challenges with Ed Spleleers as Jack, Speleers himself has been talking as though he would be top of the call sheet.
Who actually wants to see that?
A show about the hero’s journey of a 22 year old who nearly destroyed Starfleet with his own @&%#ing Picard hubris, who had creepily taken over his crew mates’ minds and bodies?
A show in a supposedly aspirational future where the principal character has leapt ahead on family influence?
This is the conversation that needs to be had.
I tend to agree. I’m not excited by the Legacy pitch, even though it’s pitched to people like me (older than 35, first Trek = TNG). That said, it’s kinda like everything else: depends on the execution. I wasn’t excited by the Strange New Worlds pitch — and the same group of “give me everything I’ve seen before again” that pushed for that are pushing for Legacy — and even though there’s a lot of unfathomably stupid s*** in the first season, I think it was, overall, pretty okay.
The fans are doing all the pitching. That+ratings are a start to make the economics of development viable, but of course they aren’t anything to hang the actual creative of the show on. Beyond Matalas dropping some spin-off potential in there to use or not, it’s still anyone’s guess what they might actually propose if given the chance. So a lot of our speculation is a bit moot, and certainly there’s not much to actually argue about. If they green light a show and a premise, then we can really get into things, but even then we need more, otherwise it would just be repeating the current silly back and forths on SFA that are based on a flimsy press release.
But for what it’s worth, if Q spearheads the mission for a show with Seven, Jack, Raffi, Shaw and Sidney on a scrappy Enterprise with occasional catch-ups on Berman Era characters, I’d be happy to check it out. I like Jack and Speelers, love Seven, and appreciate the other new characters who might get ported over. But yeah, it needs a premise that’s at least as novel as, “Lost in Space but it’s a Starfleet/Maquis crew.”
Love this idea too man. We’re im complete agreement!
Precisely. No one is going to be nostalgic about any of these shows (not even DISCO) in 20 years. Trek needs content that will cause people to be nostalgic then.
I agree all the shows use nostalgia. I just don’t see it as bad. It’s why I like SNW, LSS and PRO because they have great nostalgia moments but just good shows too.
But fans won’t like something based on nostalgia alone. Picard season 1 and 2/had plenty of it too and most fans still thought they sucked. Showing off the E-D isn’t going to just suddenly make the show beloved if we sat through a lot of crap the whole time.
No it’s not bad at all. But I do agree there can be TOO much of it though and even I say they probably went too far in places for season 3. Stuff like showing Kirk’s body was now in the hands of Section 31. Or bringing back Moriarty just to bring back Moriarty basically. They could’ve used that money to try and get Janeway or someone you can tie the story to. Or having the Bird of Prey from TVH to be part of the fleet museum. Or making Titan a 100 year old ship design ‘neo’ to excuse it because you really like the TOS movie ships. You didn’t have to go this hard Matalas lol.
But it’s always a crazy balance because when you don’t do it all some fans get even more irritated. One of the best examples of that was when TNG started and some fans complained the show felt too detached from TOS since they tried very hard not to name drop the characters often or have Spock show up in the first season (although they were trying to get him in season two). This was actually a big reason why some didn’t like the show because it wasn’t name checking TOS every 15 minutes or had round the clock memberberries.
Now you can argue it’s just wanting the continuity to be stronger or something. But most of it really came down to just wanting stronger fan service at the time considering the shows were 100 years apart. Who talks about people and events a century ago unless it’s relevant to an event or a historical moment. Most people couldn’t even tell you who was the last President a century ago, but on a TV show they expect to just see or hear certain things because they want it to feel connected. But yeah if you do it too much, then you’re just ‘pandering’. In other words, you will never satisfy either side completely.
And in Picard’s case, it’s totally appropriate because they are getting the family back together in nearly 20 years. It was always going to be a love letter to the show and those characters.
Good points. Matalas probably did go a little too far at times lol. But he’s like McMahon, he just really loves Star Trek and wants to honor the universe. I just don’t have a problem with that because I’m a fan. They call it fan service for a reason. But it can definitely be done badly like white Khan in STID and the new Kirk on SNW. But maybe that will improve.
That’s interesting TOS fans wanted more references in TNG but I can understand that. From what I read Roddenberry wanted the show to stand on it’s own. That was probably seen as a risky, but noble move at the time. And the first two episodes got TOS love having McCoy showing up in the pilot talking to Dara (still one of my favorite scenes) and they mentioned Kirk in the very next episode. So it’s not like they pretended the show didn’t exist.
But it proves fans do want fan service so just give it to them. It’s definitely not stopping Star Wars these days and that franchise has been endless nostalgia and fan service since the prequels and no one seems to care.
To be clear I don’t know exactly how many TOS fans really wanted more TOS connections in TNG, this was all before the internet. It wasn’t until years later I would read posts from people who said they couldn’t get into that show or even the later ones because there were no TOS characters around or they wanted to see the Andorians, etc. And I do think they were in the minority in THAT sense. But it’s no secret either how many fans just hated the idea of doing another Star Trek without the original characters and wanted to boycott it although it eventually got most on board.
What’s great about today is the overwhelming majority of fans have no problem with having newer characters. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t have had four spin off shows in the Berman era, which all lasted longer than TOS itself. So there was a huge audience there very accepting of anything new as long as the show itself was strong.
So this idea that people ONLY want nostalgia and fan service is a misnomer. Yes SOME people do and you will never get those people to accept any new Star Trek because they are stuck in their ways and has been for decades. This is a totally different situation because no one is begging for just the Legacy show alone, they just want that as an addition to everything else. Again why this argument is bizarre to me. Yeah some don’t want the Academy show, but I can understand why because it doesn’t feel ‘Star Trek’ enough while the Legacy show is 100% what people think of Star Trek. So it’s not just because Data can show up on it, it’s getting back to basics which I have said many times is probably the real reason fans love shows like SNW, PRO and even LDS because people just want to see Starfleet officers going to new planets (kind of) every week. Yes PRO is different but it still had the same idea.
But of course when you have a 50 year old franchise that has never been rebooted (which I’ve said a thousand times I be fine if they did) then you have to expect nostalgia on that level alone. I actually just watched a new video by TrekCulture on YouTube that’s about ten story lines they want to see get wrapped from where the Doomsday device came from to what happened to Sela or even the Ocampa.
That’s the part of problem when you have such an old universe and literally 800+ hours of stories, people expect to see a continuation of story lines and some of the characters involved. It’s exactly why so many were excited about season 3 because it teased what happened after the Dominion war. So it’s just natural to want to see certain things filled in or continued.
You brought up SW which is another great example because while the EU stuff (which I know very little about) has really taken those stories in a lot of new and creative ways, all the shows and movies have all revolved around the same stories and basically characters. They have certainly created new characters but those still revolve around the older ones. I can’t think of a single show or movie where OT characters hasn’t popped up in. They’ve been in everything and it’s all tied to the same story presented in ANH. At least Star Trek has really tried to make new characters and shows as their own entities, but it is becoming less so today compared to the 90s shows and Enterprise.
I still think the Legacy show is more of a when and not an if because of how Trek is being made today.. But I think the Academy show will still happen too.
Well, if Paramount has not done significant development on Starfleet Academy scrap it and do Legacy. Fans want this.
Oh stop. Yes, this has caught the interest on 90s fans, mainly in the United States.
That doesn’t mean it will hold younger or newer fans, especially outside the United States.
Paramount is cutting staff in the US and moving towards making premium streaming content elsewhere because it knows where the growth needs to be.
I’m from outside the US and in my late 20s and think Picard is the best Star Trek series since DS9. Do I count?
Not saying you don’t count, but that you’re not particularly representative of your age group or geographic region. Streamers will look at the data to see who is watching from your country and how many.
Paramount is very conscious that it needs to serve the markets outside the US rather than hope that American-targeted content will sell enough to get some extra revenues. ‘Travelability’ matters. Paramount won’t survive without content that resonates with significant non US audiences, and content needs to travel from and among countries. Paramount is announcing that it’s going through a major restructuring to achieve that.
What we do know from Netflix data is that Voyager had much better viewership outside North America than any of the classic series.
Demand metrics (e.g., Parrot’s) show Picard S3 wasn’t as hugely successful outside the United States. Those huge Nielsen numbers for the US, aren’t matched with demand increases in other countries. In terms of ‘travelabity’, Picard is showing as having half the US demand in Canada, two-thirds in the UK, less elsewhere. In fact, from everything I can see the popularity of Picard fell in Latin America in S3, not unsurprising as they dropped the Latino main cast character.
As a Canadian, I’m very conscious that Trek’s reach outside North America, the UK and Germany is tenuous. Netflix helped with that and Discovery broadened the base across many demographics. We’ll have to see how seriously Secret Hideout and Paramount are about making the show fulfill its IDIC values so it can reach the global audience it deserves.
> Paramount is very conscious that it needs to serve the markets outside the US
I really hope you’re right, but from what I’ve seen, I don’t believe that for a second. Paramount has given the international audience a huge middle finger on several occasions lately, including
– extremely delayed showings of multiple of their new Trek shows in various regions
– complete unavailability for streaming Short Treks internationally
– complete lockdown of The Ready Room after show to startrek.com, which can’t be watched on TV, instead of YouTube as in the US
They very consistent impression an international viewer gets from Paramount is that we’re pretty much worthless.
Surely some of this is due to globalization really coming into its own only in the mid-1990s, after most of TNG had aired. IIRC, the first James Bond film to be released globally on the same day was “Tomorrow Never Dies,” which came out in 1997, more-or-less concurrently with VOY.
VOY itself had the least international cast of any Star Trek series. All the human characters were Americans, possibly excepting Annika Hansen. That has not been true of any other Star Trek series.
Regardless of the content hardly anyone outside the USA likes Star Trek. It truly is one of the biggest Hollywood franchises that has failed to become really global.
I’m a german, based in Germany, and we have one of the biggest star trek fan bases in the world here
I think Boring One exaggerates slightly. I remember being in Bonn shortly after the closing days of the Bonn Republic, and seeing some kind of stationery store with a huge cardboard cutout of Captain Janeway right by the door. I’ve never even seen that in the US!
There is also the “Turist Omar” take on Star Trek in Turkey.
I think Canadians, Brits and Germans, to name a few, would disagree with you.
That is a tiny market in comparison to say Marvel, Transformers, Pokemon ect.
That’s still pretty small through. Star Trek is still a blip in most of the world, especially Asia. None of the new shows exist in China at all since there is no American streaming services.
Trek still seems to excel in America fist, everywhere a distant second.
EXACTLY, THIS SHOULD BE THE WAY TO GO!!!
Please don’t shout. We hear you.
Agreed. But not just for fans, but a the new audience that discovered Star Trek through Picard Season 3. I’m sure they exist in abundant numbers and it would make sense to capitalize on the success and good will of this show to go right into Legacy.
One concern I have is that if we get Legacy, it will be another 4-7 years from now. Those actors would have aged a bit from the Picard Season 3 finale and it’d be weird to see them many years older.
VZX I don’t see any evidence that Picard S3 drew in any significant numbers of new fans.
(And I have been looking for it.)
I would agree that it was very successful in drawing back casual TNG fans from the 90s, especially in the US.
However, TNG wasn’t actually syndicated in many countries in the 90s. Mainly just Canada, the UK and Germany.
So, looking at those countries, we can find Picard S3 hitting the top of the streaming chart Germany and some evidence for the UK. The interest in Germany is falling off very rapidly postseason though.
In Canada, it started strong but doesn’t seem to have had the staying power. More, since seasons 1 and 2 also did very well in their opening weeks in Canada (back when we had Nielsen-like Numeris stats), it’s not at all obvious that Picard S3 did significantly better in Canada than previous seasons.
Even without having SNW-S1 or S2 to compare with, pretty easily a successful season of streaming TV. Congrats to all involved
In all fairness, the fact that it finished stronger in the US than 1923, an extraordinarily expensive show, has got to be helping the case for a 25th century show.
Beyond football half time promotional buildup, I give a lot of credit to Matalas personal efforts to leverage social media to attract back disengaged TNG fans. Paramount will know how significant or not those US audience minutes are in terms of new signups and the crosswalks to other Paramount+ offerings.
I am somewhat concerned that neither the SNW showrunners or Paramount are doing the necessary to maximize the success of SNW S2.
The fact that Goldsman is being controversial and Myers least in sight (perhaps due to his support for the WGA strike) is not doing SNW good in the lead up to its S2 premiere next month.
It’s also pretty much radio silence from the actors. It seems like the TNG crowd and Picard S3 cast just ignore whatever has intimidated the rest of the Trek actors into social media silence since the ViacomCBS merger. Wish the SNW cast were expressing excitement.
Paramount should be encouraging social media build up and rolling out the hype, but instead they forced BellMedia to pull their promotional spots.
Have the non-Picard Trek actors been quiet on social media? I’d like to know more about the BellMedia news, but I didn’t get the sense that anyone’s been stifled over the last 3 or so years post-merger…
I really noticed the drop off in social media across the actors, EPs and production leads of all the new shows post merger.
The presence and willingness to share any news at cons dropped sharply too.
It had been the social media presence that made me aware of Discovery in the first place, so that shift definitely caught my attention.
Interesting. I don’t follow any of them or pay attention to many talk show appearances and press tours, so am only aware as far as a couple Trek sites publicize them. Obviously Matalas is an active presence and legacy fans are rabid, but there always seemed to be consistent chatter from the other shows’ actors, directors, and producers.
Not much at all now from the cast, and what they are putting on Instagram or Twitter is mainly regramming and retweeting stuff put up on the Paramount Star Trek social. Even the birthday wishes to cast colleagues.
Occasionally they’ll reply to thank and promote some fan art.
It’s an order of magnitude less than in the first seasons of Discovery or S1 Picard with Chabon and Goldsman.
1923 did better than Picard. The week of the season finale of 1923, Nielsen registered 560 million minutes viewed (across 8 episodes) and it was #6 on the chart. It was also the first week Nielsen started tracking Paramount+ so it very likely would have made the chart prior to that if it had been tracked.
Yeah, it would seem to have made its impressions during more competitive weeks.
That’s a good thing, because 1923 is expensive as hell.
Good point. I hadn’t realized that 1923’s was pulled into Nielsen for just the finale week only.
I think the SNW/LDS crossover is going to be the biggest episode of season 2. I wouldn’t be shocked if that episode got in the top 10 as well.
Whereas I think it may be the moment Trek jumps the shark.
If it sucks you’ll be right lol.
But really looking forward to it. It seems to be the episode everyone is waiting for.
Legacy has already found a place in the Star Trek franchise lineup. Whether or not TPTB at Paramount+ realizes it is the only question that remains.
Slow news day?
Yep. In the real world, the strike(s) and Paramount Global’s shaky financial situation (and I’m being plenty generous here) make the entirety of this thread not much more then clickbait.
I think they’ve got to ditch the “legacy” and explore Starfleet itself and the young officers.
Everyone under 25 in the Starfleet was just used by the Borg to kill their friends, family and fellow officers both on starships and the Earth space dock.
This after Mars was destroyed after Starfleet built a failed evacuation fleet using robots programmed to act like slaves under an Admiral that was compromised by the Borg.
Then you’ve got Seven who feels an attachment to the her Borg name when she was kidnapped herself and forced against her will to commit genocide. Her special advisor is David Marcus Picard who enabled the Borg take over.
Also note quite sure why they eliminated Shaw’s / Rikers legacy on the Titan to recommission.
Morale has got to be at an all time low.
Would love to see new non “legacy” characters react to all this and try to rebuild the Starfleet with neo-Connie class starships…. (a real tragedy as it all goes down again with the Burn).
When you look at all the Trek content that’s been created over the years, it’s incredibly Starfleet centric, to the point where Starfleet is synonymous with the Federation. So, do any of these other Federation worlds contribute to the common defense? Would any of these other member worlds be taking a hard look at Earth/Starfleet and wondering if that clusterf**k of a civilization really even worth hooking up with? If all these member worlds have an equal seat at the table, why isn’t Starfleet a better run organization? Or even viable?
TNG being a ratings monster… What’s new? ;)
I’d love for Legacy to happen but ya even without the Strike this wouldn’t happen for years. All we can do right now is keep showing our support for WGA and the show and see where it takes us.
We’re probably years away as you said unless they replace it with the CW Academy show moat people don’t seem excited for and replaced it. I know how much you hate Discovery and the 32nd century timeline so I think you would agree to some of that.
Don’t see it happening but I wouldn’t fight it if it did. 😆
LOL I wouldn’t fight it either! But the thing is, even if they did scrap Academy, I dunno how much they could start on Legacy without even a peliminary rough draft of a pilot written and who knows how long it would be before we could get that? :-(
Labor strike(s). PG’s terrible, horrible financial situation. Sorry, but this story isn’t much more then clickbait.
I disagree. For me at least, the fact that a Star Trek show can make the top ten in the cut throat streaming show ratings at a time when blockbuster Netflix shows and Ted Lasso, etc are streaming alone warrents the article. ESP at a time when there isn’t much news in between active Trek airing.
Depending on what business opinion pieces you read, Star Trek could very well end up on Netflix. It’ll remain to be seen if Netflix sees enough value there to keep ordering new shows. So there’s that….
Not sure why people are hankering for a return to Netflix.
Picard S3 would never have had a chance of being made for Netflix. It would have be lucky to have had a second season.
Exactly! The irony about this statement is Picard is one of the few bright spots the company is having lately and should be celebrated. If you’re going to conclude that all of it will just amount to failure in the end, then Paramount should just shut down as a business and sell the franchise to Apple or Disney because apparently it’s all heading for a cliff no matter what they do.
We can all agree, especially these days, the streaming business seems to be in dire straits, forget about everything else including the writer’s strike which partly is due to streaming issues as well. One show isn’t going to turn it around. But at the same time, everyone seems to acknowledge streaming is and will be the future. There is really no turning back now, but these studios just have to compensate how they can make money off of it faster and bigger so it’s not going away. And that obviously includes Star Trek, which seems to be a metaphor of what is happening with streaming. It’s still very successful but yeah, the fat still has to be cut somewhere and probably did too much too fast. But it too will probably find a better balance in the future. I don’t think it’s going to die off when it’s one of the few shows that can at least draw lots of views and attention even if it’s not at the level of Star Wars or Marvel.
It’s not clickbait. The article is just discussing how energized fans were of the season and want to see more of it. That’s what it’s about. It even made clear the show isn’t being developed right now even before we knew how poorly Paramount is doing as a studio. And dude, we’ve known this for a long time now and why a movie keeps stalling because they obviously don’t have the money to make one or afraid the next one will bomb making their situation more dire.
But yes, it does sound even worse today. Unfortunately Tom Cruise can only make so many movies a year. Chris Pine is certainly not going to save them lol.
Dungeons and Dragoons is another Pine bomb and already on Paramount+. It’s supposed to be good but I guess not a lot of people care about the game. It’s no Mario Bros, that’s for sure. 😆
Even though I am a proud Star Trek nerd, D&D sounds too nerdy for even me lol. But yeah heard good things about the movie but yes Chris Pine is simply not a star. I don’t think that movie made even $200 million and it needed $300 million just to break even. But will watch it on P+ when I get the time.
D&D is a delightful movie. It’s such a shame it didn’t do better at the box office, it absolutely deserved it. I know nothing about the game, it’s just a fun and funny adventure with a very game cast.
It does sound fun so will definitely watch it when I get my Paramount+ subscription back for SNW. Thanks!
I’m about to give S3 another watch. I thought it was fantastic. As to the first 2, never again, the writing was abysmal. Bring on Legacy with Matalas, I say. After all this writer strike thing is over with. The only thing I was a little bummed about was Laris was left in the dust – in my mind Picard went back to her after S3.
As usual we 100% agree Danpaine but we seem to agree on everything lol. I’m going to rewatch the season soon as well. That and a completely rewatch of SNW for the new season is on my to-do list when I get a bit less busy these days. So yeah, also very excited for the Legacy show and really hope it comes and I say this that as also being 100% excited for both for the Academy show and the Section 31 movie.
I’m just generally excited about Star Trek in general these days but the Legacy show is definitely at the top of my list. Judging by the online responses, that seems to be the majority.
And great point about Laris,but I knew for a year now that she was gone after the first episode, but it still sucks just the same.
I’ll own P3 4k Steelbook first day and give it many rewatches for sure 😁 (IF it’ll come out in 4k🤔) It MUSTTTTT 🌞
I would totally buy the 4K stealbook for this too! 😎
It’s the first season of any NuTrek show I want to own and I like all of them except Discovery. But Picard season 3 was on another level.
I love the legacy characters. But I have seen enough of them. Its time for a new crew.
We do. Picard, Riker or Worf is not serving under Seven, she has a new crew of characters. Why do some people seem to miss this very obvious point?
I’m not surprised by this. They made Star Trek, they respected the continuity and threw out the disastrous first two seasons and the writing was on another level.
Give the fans what they want. The fans got SNW made and it destroyed DSC in the ratings.
Listen again please.
Listen again please when some of us say that you don’t represent ‘the fans’ but rather a segment of fans.
I myself signed the petition at around the midpoint of the season, but I’m really not confident that the specific proposal for a show that we were offered at the end of the finale has much of a market.
Paramount will have the numbers to know if the TNG fans who showed up for Picard S3 brought enough new subscriptions and whether they’re hanging around to watch other Paramount+ content.
Those are the metrics that will be make or break for a 25th century show. Yet more, detailed analysis on how well the new characters hit with the prospective audience.
If the Picard viewers have already come and gone, dropping there subs or not watching other shows, movies or sports, it won’t matter how many viewing minutes in the United States or petition supporters.
S3 of Picard is a masterpiece. It is an example of genuine Star Trek. It was made by people who understand Star Trek. I want to see this show happen badly. But, paramount is in bad shape right now. It’s ran incompetently. I don’t see it happening. I don’t think they were expecting S3 to fire everyone up either. SFA will be postponed because of the writers strike. Maybe, this will give them time to re-evaluate their strategy. It is all about profit and competing with the big three services. I like to think making it into Nielsen’s ratings is a good sign for the franchises future and for P+.
I see the argument that legacy characters lead to stagnation on here all the time, and it drives me insane – along with the ‘visual continuity is not important’.
Tell that to Star Wars.
Din Djarin is a legacy character? That’s news to me. The entire Mando verse is centered around a new character. Cassian Andor was introduced in 2016. He’s from the Disney era. So is Ezra Bridger. Boba Fett, Ahsoka Tano and Obi-Wan Kenobi aren’t and Thrawn isn’t but of those, two had their show be absolutely terrible and one hasn’t aired yet.
Also Star Wars retcons itself in many ways all the time.
Wow amazing news!!!
This season has really captured a lot of fans hearts and for awhile, I really did think this season could be an utter disaster lol. At least based on the first two seasons, but it really was great even with its obvious flaws. I just loved how well it stuck to landing in general.
But reading some of the comments here, I’m really confused about the whole argument over legacy characters and fan service since that’s been the case with every show and movie since 2009 lol. I don’t get these arguments other than this season was built on a lot of nostalgia. Once again, all the new shows and movies are built on nostalgia with the exception of Discovery from season 3 on. Season 2 though drowned in it. And Picard season 3 was really a more special case because they wanted to give the TNG crew one last big go around and end it on a higher note than what we got in Nemesis. That was definitely achieved. If the Legacy show gets made, which I’m 99% sure it will happen eventually, that will be a different show with different characters. So again I don’t get the argument. You will have both old and new characters just like we have on LDS, PRO and definitely PIC and SNW.
Anyway that’s my rant lol. But overall this season has been very positive. It’s gotten both high critical and audience reviews and people watched it in droves. Overall this is ALL amazing news and Matalas should feel proud of what he delivered on because it worked and he turned around a show a lot of fans felt truly disappointed by to wanting more off it even if this is the last Star Trek he ever does.
I respect when some Trek fans are all “Trek” must be about going forward. And in a way I think the Academy show is the way to go with them rebuilding Starfleet.
That being said… the problem with post TOS shows is that as the technology advances and as humanity learns it actually becomes LESS exciting. Space travel is just a mushroom jump away, the starships are just flying hotels, the whole galaxy is colonized, no real dangers on the frontier as everyone is friends. TNG sucked outside PIC S3 because all the aliens were told to be like perfect humans, we had nothing to learn. Contrast that with TOS where half the time Kirk ends up regretting his actions were the best they could do but subpar in contrast to some super energy race.
Yes, I know some cry when they see Tuvok and then cry again when they see carpet on the bridge and then dry again on something else, that’s really not the show, that’s I find them crying over being 10 again when there were 13 TV channels, it’s not sustainable. You can only cry over seeing Janeway again in Prodigy only to cry again when seeing Janeway again in whatever so many times before you realize its the same deal over and over again and usually it is a snoozefest…..
BUT Legacy works because PIC S3 brought back the TOS movie style, the fleet is small again, Starfleet got trashed by the Borg compromising their own officers, it;s back to neo-Constitution class cruisers. Ironically the “Legacy” isn’t a good one, but it sets up a real next generation that is exciting. Works well too along side SNW, they are trying to “recapture the magic” in contrast to SNW when space was still wild.
Could be a tragedy too, since we know the effort results in temporal cold war and the Burn. Maybe the new characters actually end up leaving the Milky Way to escape.
That’s a highly selective memory of both TOS and TNG.
Some of the “super energy races” in TNG include the Husnak (“The Survivors”), Nagilum, the Q, John Doe (“Transfigurations”), etc.
TOS had preachiness in “The Omega Glory,” “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield,” “Bread and Circuses,” “Plato’s Stepchildren,” etc.
In general, I think TNG had ambiguous endings more frequently than TOS, where everyone was laughing around the captain’s chair in the closing scene.
Thank you. It’s why I don’t even bother anymore. He repeats the same ten things over and over again and cherry picks certain things to death that is not close to reality if you actually watch the show. It’s just a waste of time.
There are two schools of thought here. Matalas’ has somehow divined the magic formula for how all super successful and market popular Trek should be made, or that he caught lightening in a bottle. I’m in the latter category myself. Understanding that to be true, there’s little reason to suspect that by rounding up a few supporting characters from P-S3 and building a show around the will generate the same level of success that TNG Season 8 enjoyed.
There’s a precedent that buttresses this concern. Ron Moore’s BSG is (almost) universally beloved. Caprica, not so much. The STA and S31 productions support P+’s objectives to grow market share by appealing to new markets (the young and foreign market segments). SNW’s keeps North America and Europe happy. All season 4 of Picard (or whatever you want to call it) does is feed a fickle nostalgia market segment. As we’ve seen here, that market segment can turn on you on a dime. There’s too much risk for to little reward to do that. Even more so in a business environment where P+ is very much counting its pennies.
I don’t really disagree with a lot of this, but I have to point out there are currently FIVE shows on the air lol. I don’t understand the hand wringing to any of this. The Legacy show will simply appeal to the same people that Picard was suppose to in the first place. Why is this suddenly an issue??? It’s such an odd argument. And it doesn’t HAVE to be as successful as season 3. I think everyone can recognize this was a special deal. As long as it’s successful as the other shows, why shouldn’t it get made?
Obviously I’m biased because I really want the show. But the same could be said of many of the people who don’t want it. And that’s OK, you don’t have to want it lol. But if your biggest argument against the show is it relies on too much nostalgia and fan service then WTF do you think you been watching since 2009 when they dragged Nimoy out of retirement to play Spock again in his 80s and centered the movie around iconic characters? That’s what ALL these new movies and shows are doing today. Yes some more than others, but they are all doing it. And I’m 100% for both the Section 31 movie (now that its only a movie ;)) and the Academy show. But even that show will still probably bring in a few DIS characters. They are not ‘legacy’ characters but still someone that fans already know and like. Or maybe I will be proven wrong on that.
The Section 31 movie seem to be happening because apparently Space Hitler is popular to some fans, but I’ll just have to take their word on that. But yes, I think it’s smart to take advantage of Yeoh’s current popularity even if you hate the character.
To me SNW and the Legacy show isn’t remotely different, they are both relying on mostly old characters back on another Enterprise most fans have been watching since they were kids. And for the overwhelming majority of fans, especially casual fans, that will always be Star Trek to them. You can do other things with the franchise but end of the day people just want to see Starfleet on a bridge investigating some spatial anomaly or getting into a dog fight with asshole aliens. To me, that’s actually the bigger appeal about the Legacy show, it’s being groomed as the next TNG style of show. Thats why both these shows seem to have the pull that they do. And having characters people love and been following for decades doesn’t hurt either.
I’m OK with the Section 31 movie because like you said it’s no longer a show and I can only take Georgiou in small bursts.
But the CW SFA show still does nothing for me. If it takes in space it will be better but I just don’t care about any of the Discovery stuff or the 32nd century. I know you and others do but I think having the show in the TNG era would’ve been a more appealing idea at least.
Amirami hates Discovery and the 32nd century more than I do. This is why me and him are such great friends! 😂
I certainly know how you and Amirami feel about the 32nd century and another reason fans are having trouble with the Academy idea. And to make this clear, I don’t really disagree with you guys that much on how they handled it so far. But for me I still want to see new stuff and I still think it has great potential. Discovery has squandered it a bit but when does it NOT squander something lol.
It’s ironically why I want the Academy show, because I feel it’s going to focus more closely on the setting itself and really show us how things are for the characters and not having a Federation to be part of. The problem with Discovery is being a fish out of water premise, but they never spent any real time developing the era outside of the Burn and what was left of Starfleet itself. And due to its overly serialized premise, it’s always just go-go-go and skip over huge elements that an episodic show has real time to explore. Hopefully it will now.
But I get why others like you don’t like it.
I was excited at first they were going to the future but they made it feel boring and not advanced enough. I do like we get to see how other species developed and want more of that too.
And the reason for the Burn was just super dumb. Even for Discovery. I think that ruined it for a lot of people too. But I still plan to watch (thankfully) DIS final season. Maybe they will make the setting more interesting.
And again, I have to cite the ONLY reason SNW exist today is because fans pushed for it as much as they did. And most ONLY pushed for it because they wanted to have a Pike and Spock show on the original Enterprise again. This is literally the same thing, except it’s now Seven on the Enterprise G. So I’m sorry you can’t have it both ways (and I don’t mean YOU obviously). You can’t pretend one is that different from the other, especially since probably the overwhelming majority of fans support and want both shows for the reasons stated above. It just comes off hypocritical to me. Again, it’s OK if you simply like one show over the other, it’s the ‘reasoning’ of it relying on fan service why it’s complete bullshit to me.
Yeah people want more TNG just like some people want more TOS. One guy was saying they literally wanted another TOS show to replace SNW when it was done like it would be TOS season 4, so what am I missing??? End of the day most fans want the nostalgia and fan service, right? Most just want their comfort food and Paramount seems to be well aware of that by now…hence Picard season 3.
But the only way to avoid all of this is to go forward, period. Because I can guarantee you whatever comes next and it’s in the 23rd, 24th or 25th, its going to have legacy characters on it one way or the other regardless if its called something else.
I would consider myself a TOS fan but I’d say I am more interested in the “final frontier as wild” / wagon train to the stars than seeing Kirk, Spock or whatever. For instance when DIS has it where starships are a dime a dozen, that just sucks regardless if Spock is in the season or not. SNW recaptures some of the magic where starships feel special again, ignoring pretty much all of DIS season one.
Now that being said, it is nice to see the big E again and I love finally getting to meet Number One, not because I knew so much about the character but because we did NOT get to see enough of that cool character. Same with Chapel/M’Benga, etc. Also I want to see a Lt. Kirk, not a Captain Kirk, because that is something we have never seen before but often thought about in the past.
The #1 example of this is (Star Trek) Enterprise. I didn’t want ENT to be Kirk or Spock and I didn’t want the ship to look like anything before, indeed was pretty upset when it looked like the Akira with nacelles flipped upside down. I wanted the ship to have point defence turrets, nuclear weapons, primative warp engines, no transporters, no phasers on stun. I wanted it where you needed shuttles with fighter escorts because you couldn’t just beam. Now.. did I want some nostalga like the Vulcans being all logical thinking humanity was over emotional while the Andorians thought were were push overs, etc. Yes, but it’s more because the environment seems so exciting.
Instead we got more TNG, which was a snoozefest, and it went from potentially being the best Trek ever, to just another season of Berman Trek (with echos of what could have been in the last season).
I think it was about twelve years ago when the Coen brothers rolled out True Grit. Made a mountain of money on a tiny budget. Suddenly, Westerns were hot again. Until Disney went super stupid and poured almost 300MM into The Lone Ranger, which cratered. Suddenly Westerns were dead.
It’s not a spectacular flameout that’s giving pause to the streaming industry, but Wall Street collectively looking at all these Netflix wanna-be’s and deciding that the venture capital spigot is getting turned off if a marginal streamer can’t provide a path to profitability. This will weed out the weak services. What the fans want isn’t a great business model. If P+, or Nexflix if Paramount Global shuts down figures that a nostalgia Trek can be made that makes them money, they’ll do it. The Academy show isn’t likely to be FX heavy, it likely remains cost effective. The Legacy show will almost be guaranteed to be an FX-travangaza, it won’t have the TNG cast, and based on the weak setup, won’t look anything at all like TNG season 8.
Well who wants Star Trek itself other than fans, right? P+ could probably focus on less costly shows and get tons more people like say more South Park, NCIS or Criminal Minds.
But they seems to be making all these shows because they see there are enough fans even if they are not the biggest fan base around. And I’m not the one arguing over the SFA show over the Legacy, I simply want both lol. Again, if they are making multiple shows (and now movies) assuming P+ is viable for at least the next five years, then I don’t see why you can’t do both? Yes the Academy show should happen because I think Star Trek should always try and take risks. It’s why we got DS9 in the first place. I also don’t see a reason why the Legacy show can’t happen since it seems like it would be a huge hit. I mean, do people think South Park and Criminal Minds are picking up tons of new fans at this point? My guess is those keep getting made to attract mostly the same fans that’s been watching it for decades.
And Star Trek is older than all of those. I have said many times that Star Trek needs new fans, I agree with that completely. And I’m more than willing for them to put on whatever they think will attract them just as long as it’s good of course. But I think we need to stop pretending that a surge of new fans will suddenly show up and bring Star Trek to the masses. If that was the case the Kelvin movies wouldn’t have stalled after the third one and Discovery would’ve gotten at least two more seasons if all the so-called new fans were really building this franchise in a new direction.
I’m sorry but it isn’t. I knew that the second they dumped 80% of the original (and much younger) Picard cast to bring back the TNG cast. To me, that literally says the opposite of how Paramount is thinking. And shows like SNW and LDS just seems to confirm that more IMO.
My point being it’s only been more nostalgia and fan service since Discovery premiered in alll the other shows and not less of it, right. so why do you think that is?
And if this is just trying to get younger people to sign up for P+, great, but again they probably have an easier time just making more shows that appeals to that group like they are doing now instead of making Star Trek shows. I just don’t think Star Trek is going to live or die by how many young people watch it at this point or it would’ve died out long ago.
Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny is being described as nostalgic hockum. But hey, Harrison Ford!! And de-aged Harrison Ford!!
You’re gonna love it.
The movie seems to be getting mixed reviews but I still really want to see it. It has to at least be better than The Crystal Skull. 🤮
Be sure and post your comments. I’d like to feel good knowing I’ve saved fifteen bucks and two hours of my life.
TBF, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull also had tons of call backs and nostalgia bait. That’s why they brought Marion back and the two even had a son together Indy had no idea about until 20 years later after going on a daring mission to save her (sound familiar ;)).
But I guess this one goes much farther with the de-aging stuff and maybe the story line is tied directly to Indy this time. None of this surprise me, this is what Hollywood does. Did you catch Michael Keaton back as Batman in the Flash trailer after not being around for literally 30 years? It’s just how Hollywood works these days because they seem to realize audiences are becoming more and more fragmented. Making endless content from decades old franchises isn’t enough anymore unless you tie as many legacy character you can.
The Last Crusade was great….Sean Connery was a good bit of casting. Crystal Skull was one of those ‘how bad could it be’ decisions. Two hours of my life I’ll never get back bad. Scratch out my eyes bad. It made Temple of Doom look like Citizen Kane bad. If I ever meet Spielberg I’m asking for a refund bad.
You’ve opened up some movie trauma here…..and yeah, I have no plans to see Dial of Destiny at all. I actually haven’t been to a movie since before the plague. Oppenheimer will likely by my first trip back to the theater.
I will say this about PIC. I think it would have been nicer if it had added Seven and Hugh and Icheb to the cast from the start and just been about ex Borg trying to find their place in the galaxy still. That would have been something new yet following up on plot threads from legacy at the same time.
A former Borg show would’ve been interesting for sure. I still hated they killed High and Icheb off. 🙄
Agreed. The story was just so lazy.
50,000 at this point in time for a change.org petition is chump change — it’s embarrassingly small.
BRING RODDENBERRY / BERMAN TREK BACK!!!!! THESE RECORD NUMBERS ARE SPEAKING FOR THEMSELVES!!! How obvious must it still get that there are a tone of people who want this???
Picard S3 was far from Roddenberry/Berman Trek. Your post would be more accurate if you had said “bring us more JJA/Star Wars Trek,” because that’s what we got in Picard S3.
What is it with the Picard S3 boosters and yelling demands in ALL CAPS?
Why do they think this will make their case or persuade others?
Do they really spend so little time with people of other ages on social media that they aren’t aware how rude it appears?
Are they coming out of some social media bubble that’s even smaller than the couple of dozen longhaulers here?
(TG1701 at least acknowledges now that they’re getting carried away and is a longtime regular elsewhere.)
All caps was always annoying before it became seen by some as rude and too aggressive, and at least you’ve done your part to explain how that could be read. I’ve seen plenty of intentional rudeness here at times and that is far more egregious.
Well I’m trying to be a better man…no make that a better Trekkie! 🖖
There is a time to be bold Boimler and turn it up to warp 9 to get what you want. But then it’s OK to be old Boimler at times and do things more in moderation too. Star Trek has taught me that. 😎
Of course I still want the show really really really badly but if they just keep giving me Lower Decks and Prodigy for a few more years, everything else can suck and I’m still eating good bro. 🙂
This has been some of the best Trek in the last year since VOY and DS9 and I say this as a reformed NuTrek hater. I can be more patient and wait for the show longer if nothing happens anytime soon.
Nah. We want fan service!! is plenty accurate. Without the caps.
Keep the faith bro! 👍
If we keep pushing they will listen. It’s too popular right now not to. And Paramount likes (and really needs) money.. Making a show most fans want and begging for helps that. 😎
cancel every ST show / movie on Paramount + to make Star Trek Legacy happen!!!! as much as i love Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds they have a winner w/ PIC S3 and need to jump on that momentum. they will never get ratings like PIC Season 3 again (maybe) but they can do damn well close to it w/ STL
i get the whole you need new blood and can’t rely on old characters to grow and make your franchise sustainable for the future, but i think STL has the right mix of old & new. plus Terry has shown he’s the right person to take Trek forward, so let him run every show like Berman / Piller did in the 80s/90s
Hopefully Terry Matalis planned for a spin off if it was to happen. Given that last scene he probably did.