Alex Kurtzman “Very Optimistic” About Star Trek Section 31 Series

There are currently five Star Trek series in active production, including three live-action shows (Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds). But there is one more show that’s still being worked on behind the scenes.

Section 31 “on a great track”

CBS announced the development of a Star Trek series starring Michelle Yeoh over two years ago. The series was to “expand on Yeoh’s current role as a member of Starfleet’s Section 31,” as seen on Star Trek: Discovery. Now there is an update via a Producers Guild panel discussion (held earlier this year, but just released on YouTube) with the executive producers of Discovery, focusing on season three. When asked about the status of the Section 31 show, Alex Kurtzman pointed to the pandemic for the delay, but also expressed optimism:

We actually have a couple of [Section 31] scripts. COVID frankly, just changed the game for everybody and every show. We were on a very specific schedule that then got thrown completely into whack because of COVID. Even Discovery season four started many months later than originally planned, Picard too. Everything got pushed… So we’re actually on a great track with Section 31 and I’m very optimistic about it.

In 2019, a writers room was put together for the show, headed up by Discovery writer/producers Bo Yeon Kim and Erika Lippoldt. Producers had said it would go into production in 2020 after the third season of Discovery wrapped; however, even after the pandemic production hiatus, the Section 31 show remains in development.

Michelle Yeoh as Mirror Georgiou in “Die Trying”

Setting Georgiou up for her own show

Kurtzman also talked about how the third season of Discovery set up the Section 31 show.

Obviously, it’s no secret that we’ve been working on Michelle’s spin-off show for Section 31. So the big question was, how to do it in an organic way? How to do it in a way that paid off the relationship arc that was set up from the beginning? It’s no accident that in the Discovery pilot [Michael and Georgiou] are walking through the desert, and in their final episode, they’re walking through the snow in a visual echo of what we did in the premiere.

There’s a whole relationship arc that they’ve had from the beginning of the series. And also Georgiou has really never confronted—in an honest way—the consequences of her choices as a Terran. And the closer that she gets to the crew of Discovery—with whom she’s very bonded and does not want to say so—the more she is is forced to reckon with those choices. So, in knowing that we were going to bring Michelle into the Section 31 [show], we needed to give her an appropriate goodbye that tied up a lot of the story threads that we set up from the from the premiere of season one.

Michelle Yeoh as Captain Philippa Georgiou and Sonequa Martin-Green as First Officer Michael Burnham in “The Vulcan Hello”

Michelle Paradise picked up on that and added:

It felt like taking her back to where she began was the best way to show how much she’s grown with our heroes on Discovery… To take her back to a place where she’d have to actually see [her original] Burnham and engage with that Burnham and see who she is now in that world and that world is now something that no longer fits, that she has changed. It felt to us like that was the best way to show that change was to see it through her own eyes. And then obviously, when she comes out of that experience, she’s able to recognize not only that she has changed a bit, but that this version of Burnham is special to her simply for who she is, and vice versa.

Michelle Yeoh as Mirror Georgiou in “Terra Firma, Part 1” with Paul Guilfoyle as Carl and Sonequa Martin-Green as Burnham

Michelle Yeoh has continued to discuss returning to the role of Georgiou in her own Star Trek series: Earlier this year she talked up all the “possibilities” for the character, and said the writers and producers of the Section 31 show “have a lot more things in store for such an amazing character.” However, the actress continues to sign on to other projects. In addition to working with James Cameron on multiple Avatar movies, she was recently cast as one of the leads for the Netflix miniseries The Witcher: Blood Origin.

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The worst idea for a trek series ever.

StarTrek: Space Hitler is not a good series.

Drop the moronic idea and develop a Worf series.

Deeply disagree. I think she’s a fascinating character and an interesting lens to tell stories from. As for worf, I personally feel like he’s been done to death across two series already and the time for that has long past.

s31 is an interesting lens through which to tell stories, but doing it with that character is like shooting your soldier through the head with an arrow before sending him out to do battle. This is not a LORD JIM situation where you have a character with a moment’s cowardice that haunts him for the rest of his life; we’re talking about somebody where there’s not enough pain in her body to even begin to offset the genocidal goings-on she was responsible for. This isn’t a matter of character redemption, it’s a matter for public execution (yeah, even in a future where they don’t do that except for Talos IV travel.)

I’m not saying that creative writing and acting won’t always be able to reverse an insanely OTT baddie to bring them to a palatable level; I mean, if you look at the Goldblum character in the last THOR, he would probably be just as irredeemable, but Goldblum offsets that with everything he brings to it, which is certainly why he was cast. With all due respect to Yeoh, who I thought was good in SUNSHINE, she is not that actress, and there is no way the writing will be enuf either.

Well said. Can’t wait for this series.

Her prime universe counterpart was, not this psychopath and caricature.

Sadly agree with most of you. I just can’t begin to care about the S31 exploits of Space Hitler. Of course if it gets a green light in the next decade I’ll give it a chance but it seems to be the least popular show fans want for a reason.

Hard agree. Even setting aside Mirror Georgiou, nothing Discovery has done with Section 31 so far gives me hope that TPTB understand it enough to make a series about it. It’s not supposed to be a cool black ops organisation ffs, we’re supposed to be horrified that it even exists.

Also the question remains, if they wanted to give Michelle Yeoh her own show, why did they not just make Discovery a show about Captain Georgiou and her first officer Michael Burnham? Which is what everyone wanted to begin with!


I do not think that word means what you think it means.

From what I have seen, TPTB not only did not understand Section 31 but they didn’t understand the MU at all either.

I agree – it’s a terrible premise for a Star Trek show. The other thing largely untouched upon in the replies is that the execution of this show will probably be awful too. The non-Trek showrunners with non-Trek writers. I’m amazed Kurtzman keeps getting budgets. Well done to him, I suppose ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Eigentlich ist Georgiou mehr ein Space Landa als ein Space Hitler. Sie genießt ihren Job offensichtlich, das Problem ist nur dass das Publikum es nicht so sehr schätzt wenn sich Frauen amüsieren, deshalb kommen Figuren wie Spike oder Dexter immer mit sehr viel mehr durch als ihre weiblichen Gegenstücke. Dazu kommt allerdings auch dazu dass Georgiou wirklich sehr, sehr, sehr schlecht geschriebenen ist, wie ja viele sagen. Trotzdem klingt es etwas heuchlerisch, Loki mögt ihr ja auch.

Genau. das stimmt.

Kommt zuruck? Wiederholen sie bitte, auf Engles. (took 4 years in high school, haven’t had much change to use it in last 43 years except to say ‘mach mein tag’ and ‘spater, mann.’)

My German is limited as I took 3 years at the local Community College about 33 years ago, I get very little opportunity to speak it.

I’ll never understand the Space Hitler thing people do regarding Georgiou. Earth Hitler wasn’t born into a world where his Hitlerness was rewarded and encouraged since childhood. It absolutely is not the same. Georgiou is a perpetrator in a world where everyone is expected to be exactly that, and if even the Terran head of state can escape that cycle of violence and grow, then anyone can endeavor to grow beyond what they think they are. That’s the entire point. Enough with all of this willful missing of the point. “Space Hitler” is cartoonishly absurd.

I do not get the reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler either. When I see or hear “Space Hitler” I am reminded of Professor John Gill from Patterns of Force in TOS. But it has nothing (IMO) with the current time S31 would portray. we will not know for sure until the show airs.

I understand what you are saying. I myself have been saying that from her perspective, leaders in the Prime Universe are their “space Hitlers”. And from the perspective of people in the MU her “redemption” would be a tragedy. And in some small sense, it really is a tragedy. She is being “reprogrammed” away from who she really is into something she is truly not. The social parallels are pretty obvious.

Exactly. Not only that, I feel like a lot of people who are angry that she’s been an evil dictator in the past are missing that the character herself is essentially an experimental study in nature vs. nurture and free will vs. determinism, which is pretty damn Trekkish if you ask me. The question of whether or not she’s well-written is a different conversation entirely, but a lot of people who are detractors of how’s she written are using the Hitler complaint to get their point across in bad faith.

She’s not “Space Hitler”.

She, like other Terrans, was born in a futuristic version of the highly militaristic Roman Empire, and should, consequently, be judged as such.

Do you judge Commodus the same way you’d judge more fair rulers?

I judge Georgiou based on the premise of the Terran Universe, in which they are Romans, which makes her akin to the worse Roman emperor you can think of. They’re not Nazis, and she’s not Hitler. If Roddenberry had wanted them to be Nazis, they would have been Nazis.

So what makes the worst of the Roman emperors in any way palatable? And what has Roddenberry got to do with what Kurtzman’s folks vomited up?

No one vomited anything. Purists and gatekeepers just have a hard time accepting any iteration of Star Trek that does not conform to their limited understanding of it based on an outdated TV series from the 1960s.

Hating nu-Trek is what old fans do. They did it with TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and now DIS, PIC, and S13. You believe you will love SNW because you’ve been promised something closer in tone to the outdated series you like, but time will tell.

As for “what makes the worst of the Roman emperors in any way palatable”, is the wrong question as since a Section 31 series would not focus on “the worst of the Roman emperors”, it would focus on “the worst of the Roman emperors IN A JOURNEY OF REDEMPTION” as Georgiou is no longer the emperor she used to be.

You’d know that if you had been paying more attention to Discovery.

You seem pretty free with opinions that have no support. I do not believe I ‘will love snw’ — in fact, I dread what it will be in the hands of these hacks.

When I have time to pay any more attention to DSC, it will mean I have watched THE WIRE straight through at least 11 more times, along with a few more viewings of CARNIVALE, THE HOUR, DEADWOOD, THE PRISONER and about 20 other series that are brilliantly written, plus select DS9 and TOS. And that doesn’t count all the incredible movies in my library. It would take an open submission process to get me to watch that show again, and I will bet you credits to navy beans that does not happen during Kurtzman’s watch. He’s not a Michael Pillar of the trek community.

Irredeemable. That makes your journey of redemption a false premise.

They’re not hacks. They’re just not enslaved to TOS the way you are. They creating Trek for the 2010s and 2020s just like Berman, Braga, Taylor, and others created Trek for the 80s, 90s, and 00s.

My tastes are not mired in the past, whether you wish to accept that or not. But if you think ‘storytelling’ as arthritic and pedantic and bone-stick-stupid as what I saw in two seasons of DSC are in any way representative of cutting-edge contemporary, then I think you need to take a year off and watch some good TV from this last decade … or good TV from ANY decade.

I do find it funny you cited Berman, Braga and Taylor though, as I find them to be the weakest of TREK creative links from say 1988-200whatever. You didn’t mention Moore, or Behr, or Wolfe or Peter Allan Fields with his amazing record of winners. You didn’t even mention Menosky.

I mentioned the people who created the spin offs like DS9,ENT, and VOY, not the ones that wrote individual episodes.

To you the writing in Discovery is bad because it contradicts your archaic idea of what Star Trek should be. Star Trek is not what it was in the 60s, the 80s, 90s, or even 00s. It’s become something different, just like that it became in the 80s, 90s, and 00s was different from what it was in the 60s.

Evolve or die.

You still didn’t mention Piller, who was instrumental in creating DS9 and VOY.

Good writing is usually ageless, unless you get hung up by archaic stylings. That’s why the classics are still being taught and enjoyed. Trek didn’t change with the times when TNG happened, they were still mired in old-fashioned storytelling and didn’t try to catch up till around 1996, and even that attempt was pretty feeble. ENT was so behind the times that they were trying to be cutting edge by doing PRIVATE RYAN no-blur visuals YEARS after that had timed out. The writing in the Abrams pictures is horrendous in just about every way imaginable, so it is staggering to me that they can disimprove on that mess with DSC – but creative death finds a way, I guess.

If you want to keep chowing down on frozen dinners and salisbury steak while thinking they’re the taste sensation across the nation, that’s your right … bad taste, but your right. But don’t try to knock the tastes of others because they like Filet Mignon and Filet of Sole (and I have no fight in that hunt, as I’ve long been Vegan.)

One final thought, because I’m not going to waste any more time on you.

Show me one moment from TREK in the last 20 years that has any of the gravitas and sense of reality that you get in CHARLIE X when Kirk tells Charlie to go to his quarters … ‘or I’ll pick you up and carry you there.’ That’s character writing. Or the level of professional admiration in BALANCE OF TERROR between the two ship captains in their brief communique. Or in BREAD&CIRCUSES when McCoy is able to penetrate Spock’s veneer. Or THE EMPATH when Gem is able to see in Spock the unstated love he has for his friends. (and you can’t use the birth of Kirk thing, because that has got too much melodrama, with a birth and a death and a ship-ramming all in the same minute.)

I know that’s a lot of food for thought, but since I think, based on your simpleminded and unsupported opinion of dissenting views, you should just ‘eat it’ — I’m good on my end.

TNG is kind of boring though. It was good in it’s day, but that day is over. I can’t stand watching it now.

Or Spock’s Brain, in which they steal Spock’s brain.

Or Mudd’s Women, which has space hookers.

Or The Apple, which has space hippies.

If they ever gave you a Star Trek show to run it would be the worst trek show in the history of the franchise. It would be the Star Wars Christmas special of Star Trek.

Oh they will hate SNW. Some of them are already complaining about the amount of women on the bridge.

No doubt.

Wasn’t Commodus insane?

Going by the frequency and inanity of these other posts you just made in rapid-fire succession, I have to ask, ‘are you?’

You would go insane too if you had the 2020 that I had.

Not to undercut your pain, but nobody’s got a monopoly on bad times in these times. It’s how you choose to deal with those things that reveals character.

Yeah, I post on Star Trek forums. I’m totally hitler. Get real.

What are you talking about now? If you respond to my post, at least make it relate, or quit wasting our time.

If Georgiou is Space Hitler, what does that make Seven?

Space Patty Hearst


I tend to agree. As I said in my post, while I’m not a huge fan of a Section 31 show, that really is not the problem this show has. This show’s problem is the Evil-Georgeau character to begin with.

And the Worf show I read about does indeed sound promising. More so than Picard, Discovery, Prodigy, and the Section 31 show.

Worf is boring.

No Worf, please.

If you think it’s a bad idea, then just don’t watch it. Jeepers.

That said, I hope they touch more on the choices Kurtzman talked about and show rather than tell — the Mirror universe, on every show, just seems to show everyone behaving like a psychopath, without nuance.

Even with that Guardian episode, it doesn’t show how culture/society mandated some of this behaviour, why it did so, and whether anyone (other than Georgiou, and she did it only after seeing the other universe) struggles with it/questions it.

If it’s making a point about nature vs. nurture, it could do a better job.

i have the solution for you. don’t watch it. i never get why people who don’t care for something still comment. there are some people who want more trek so let them have it. you don’t care for something, move along. now the worf series is just boring. who wants a captain that’s stuck up? no one. that’s why it’s not even being thought about.

Because we want more Star Trek but feel that what is being produced at the moment is simply not good enough, we are not ‘haters’ or ‘gatekeepers’ we are disappointed customers. Hopefully Strange New Worlds will go some way to pleasing everyone.

The problem is you won’t be happy with any new Trek. Just stick to watching those ancient episodes and be happy.

Disappointed customers is right. You got it so absolutely right with that assessment, there’s no way to improve on it.

Why do people single her out as “Space Hitler” while in the same breath declaring Garak is their favourite DS9 character and should have been in the main cast? Garak likely did just as many horrifying things and clearly had a sociopathic streak. Interesting how people have different standards for different series.

He did but apart from being from the prime universe (which is an awfully huge difference) Garak was morally gray. He was interesting in that way. He was a well developed mysterious character who was written in an interesting fashion. Evil-Georgeau on the other hand, was presented as nothing more than a one dimensional cartoon. And then you throw in that she was from the MU and it really doesn’t help her with the fans.

Garak is like Eddington with all the naivety bleached away and a sharper wit (then again, they’re my fave 24th century characters — would like to add Jellicoe to that list, if they had done more and better things with him.) Comparing Garak to E-G is like comparing the richness of Shakespeare’s (and Welles’) Falstaff to THAT WHICH SURVIVE’s Losira — when she is in her 2D mode.

But Garak was a man. So that makes it ok. It’s undeniable that some fans are sexist against women.

As opposed to other fans who are just ageist? Or some fans whose views only extend to one or two line snipes instead of providing a bloc of content in support of their position, probably because they are unable to do so?

Trek has had its share of vamps, plus a number of female characters with power and complexity. That’s not intimidating to most, and it is only offensive when written or acted badly.

Please stop calling her hitler.

Why, is the Uncle Adolf Fan Appreciation Group going to boycott us if posters keep using that shortcut? Big loss.

Don’t gatekeep Kmart. Your blue light special is long over.

You’re going to try to deflect by making this about monikers? You’re not 10 points above A24, you underinformed twit.

Should I contact the mod?

By all means. When you do, ask about what they do with trolls and spammers, it may prove helpful to you going forward.

The problem I’m having with modern “Star Trek” — the ones I like and the ones I tolerate — is that nothing is truly new anymore. It’s all prequels, sequels, alternate universe remakes and nostalgia grabs. This proposed Section 31 thing is just ludicrous and doing a Captain Worf series would doubtless end up treading familiar waters. Love “Picard” and “Lower Decks” as I do, I have to admit both are, in essence, nostalgia grabs. “Discovery” should be getting interesting now that they’re exploring a new section of the Trek mythos, but I’m failing to get on-board with the characters (but that’s a whole other post).

Then there’s Kelvin, which just feels like a bunch of celebrities cosplaying “Star Trek” with bad scripts and Nimoy’s blessing.

Frankly, I feel that if “Trek” is to truly continue to truly live and thrive, it needs to start exploring strange NEW worlds, seeking out NEW life and NEW civilizations, boldly going where NO ONE HAS GONE BEFORE.

[I acknowledge that these are merely my opinions and I expect others to disagree. I only ask that you do so respectfully and with some consideration and thought in your refutations.]

The nostalgia grab has unfortunately become the business model for a large part of popular entertainment. Not that I don’t enjoy the occasional warm fuzzy bit of nostalgia, but there is a limit. (For me anyway).

When every movie and series is about, or is at least in orbit of, “that thing you know,” I start looking for other things. Thankfully though, there’s no shortage of those other things out there.

Even though Strange New Worlds features a character we know well, it’s a ship whose story has never been told, and I’m hoping that it will manage to straddle the line, so that it can be a “nostalgia grab,” as you put it, AND tell stories about NEW places that no other Trek ship has been to before.

No one is doing a Captain Worf series, nor is anyone thinking of doing so. Paramount and CBS have never expressed any interest in the idea.

But (some of) the fans do

Some, sure. But there has never been any chance of such a show actually happening. And the idea usually gets a big “no” from fans, too.

You should simply move on then. I mean, come on, the last season of DSC was completely fresh, as was the Picard storyline.

It’s just sad that you had to put the stuff in square brackets at the end of your comment, Sybok. One would think that fans of a show that has IDIC at its core can be respectful of others’ views without necessarily agreeing. Sadly, Trek message boards and Twitter feeds are not immune to the polarisation and toxicity in much of our society.

I’ve been on this board too long to voice my opinion without feeling it necessary to ask people to treat me with respect. Just something I do whenever I post something from the heart.

Yes, and when it comes down to it, all we have is our refutation. Lose that and it would be hard to get any where in this world! :>)

Refutation is one thing, and I welcome it. It’s the rudeness I’ve seen that bothers me and made me feel like posting that plea for kindness. Perhaps I’m just too thin-skinned for message boards.

Well, er, Ambassador Sybok, I was joking by using the word “refutation” in place of “reputation”, but maybe I was being too subtle. :>)

Or perhaps you’re just very polite and respectful!

I was surprised at your request to have your opinion treated with respect. You know, by definition an opinion is personal and we’re all different. No one has the right to judge someone’s opinion. What makes them right and another wrong? If you disagree that doesn’t make you right or wrong, it just means you disagree.

Unfortunately yes, there are many here (and everywhere in fact) that don’t get that and they feel their way of seing things is the way it is and the way we all should. Well you can never have a debate with these people, and why would you want to anyway?

In other words, who cares? Say what you have to say. The people who are the kind you want to talk to will understand. The ones who won’t understand and start insulting and demeaning you, well you don’t want to talk to them anyway. Your opinion is your own and not subject to anyone’s approval.

Well that’s my opinion anyway…

Nothing wrong to disagree. Why most of us come here, to here different opinions.

But I agree with a lot of your thoughts here. That’s been the problem for me, at least from the 2009 movie through now, it’s ONLY been a lot of fan nostalgia. And I don’t have a problem with that BUT yeah its why I miss a lot of the old shows, they didn’t feel the need to just rehash characters we knew, they all started out with mostly new characters and situations. Now DIS and PIC kind of did that with new characters but yeah bringing Spock in as the star’s sibling was pretty eye rolling to me It just felt sooo forced. Picard was fine because it’s Picard and he’s known most of these other people for decades, so its just makes sense he’s going to stay friends with them after 30 years. Even meeting Seven wasn’t a big deal. My view of the show itself didn’t end up that great but still have faith next season will be better, especially with a new show runner and Q back, so we’ll see.

As for Discovery the BEST thing they did for it was to put it in the 32nd century because it can just feel like its own thing completely. That was literally why so many fans wanted to go forward so you DON’T regurgitate the same characters over and over again and come up with something NEW. I still wish they did it from the start, I would’ve been way more excited about it instead of just another prequel and after Enterprise and then the Kelvin movies, I was really ready to move on, literally.

I love nostalgia like everyone else but when that’s ALL it is (which the Kelvin movies definitely felt like the most) then yeah I don’t get as excited. But that said still looking forward to SNW and PRO because I do love Janeway and Spock, and both iconic, but would like something completely new next time around. Doubt we’ll get it though. Especially if Space Hitler ends up coming back (ugh).

You’re not wrong… I find the same problem with Doctor Who… there’s a sameness to it all the time. Maybe all the stories have been told and its soon time to move on.

Funny. You feel Star Trek should be the same format it always was for it to be new.

Salvador, you have a valid point and are making me rethink what “going boldly” means to me. Thank you for shining a fresh light on things for me. LLAP.

The format doesn’t necessarily need to change though for it to be new. They can still use a classical format with new characters and new aliens and more imagination to come up with new stories.

I agree with you very much, in fact I’d go so far as to say that these producers will introduce Kirk in Strange New Worlds either in the first or second season. They can’t help themselves, they just like to pick the lowest hanging fruit all the time. Meanwhile true creativity and originality goes the way of the dodo. I agree with someone that said Discovery season 3 was at least in the right direction and they should continue with that trajectory, but with legacy characters they just can’t seem to help themselves.

Sir Pat won’t be around forever as much as we want him to, neither anyone else from the TNG era. I can’t imagine anyone really thought Sir Pat would come back again to play Picard. He had essentially said goodbye after Nemesis and was always quite vehement he wouldn’t likely play Picard again.
I’m still hoping Picard the show really picks up in quality and writing for S2 and S3. I’m intrigued by SNW because of its promised return to the traditional Trek format we had between 60s and 90s.

I’d be down for a Worf show staring Michael Dorn but I really can’t see that happening.. Dorn is loved by older fans but newer fans wouldn’t have that attachment and I’m just not sure the interest would actually be there as much as we would hope here in the fandom.
And how would a Worf show ever work?
We’d need to see a concept and I haven’t seen any concept. Just news about a show staring Worf.. but no detail.

[I acknowledge that these are merely my opinions and I expect others to disagree. I only ask that you do so respectfully and with some consideration and thought in your refutations.]

Honestly I think it sad that you feel the need for such a disclaimer. I think that is patently obvious and there is no need to point out the obvious but unfortunately there are some out there who are unable to tell the difference.

I figure if Forsyth, Le Carre, Ludlum, Clancy, or Flynn wrote Star Trek, there would be some seriously intriguing stories to explore…

They wrote great books, but none of their material really translated to the big screen very well. Except for Hunt for Red October, which was great, but the rest of Clancy’s movie treatments were mediocre at best. And has there ever been a hit movie based on a LeCarre book? Constant Gardner was very good, but about 28 people actually saw it. Hollywood didn’t even use Ludlum for the Bourne movies, which have almost nothing in common with the books except the name of the main character. (The 1980s Richard Chamberlain/Jacalyn Smith miniseries was much closer to Identity but hardly anyone remembers it.)

Not box office, but SPY WHO and TINKER TAILOR and TAILOR were all crackerjack LeCarre adaptations.

I just can’t see how a Section 31 show would work, especially featuring Georgiou, the show’s most badly written character.

I tend to agree. Though I suppose it could work if it were maybe about Starfleet Intelligence working to get rid of Section 31 with Georgiou as the lead antagonist. [shrug]

How could that work, though? We’d know the outcome from day one: Section 31 is alive and well in the 24th century.

Well, I know how WW2 ends and how Nazism and fascism are alive and deeply, deeply unwell later in history. But I can still watch movies about the war.

If the characters and their stories were engaging enough, I suppose it wouldn’t matter that much.

We don’t know where the Guardian sent Georgiou. I’d rather see her as a protagonist though. She could end up in the Picard era and work with Starfleet intelligence to take out S31.

I just don’t see how she could be a protagonist. She’s the equivalent of Hitler. Despite what the writers had wanted to pull off, she’s not the kind of person who is redeemable or SHOULD be redeemable.

The writing for her was terrible until her last two episodes (and even then hinged on character growth they hadn’t set up properly), but I’ve never understood the position that she was irredeemable. She grew up in a society where “evil” traits were encouraged to the point where being “good” would get her killed. She’s not quite 7 of 9 when it comes to being blameless for her murderous actions, but she also had never been shown the advantages of any other way of treating people. I’m not really comfortable saying someone born into a bad situation is irredeemable because of that.

That’s from a Prime point of view. From the MU point of view her story would be a tremendous tragedy. She would be forced to change who she is. To a monster who allowed the weak to live, etc. At least, from their perspective. A perspective she shares as that is who she truly is.

We’ve been over this before, I don’t subscribe to your POV on this at all. Mercy and kindness exists in the Mirror Universe, it is simply exploited by most societies as a weakness. Smiley, Spock, T’Pol, the Ferengi, Jennifer, the fact that the Terran Empire reformed – they are all proof that everyone in that universe is not fundamentally evil. This is classically nature vs nurture and Georgiou was basically a human raised by wolves. That does not make her beyond redemption or incapable of seeing the merits of another way of living her life.

Again, I am not comfortable with the idea that a person raised in terrible circumstances is irredeemable and must be written off.

I fully agree with this and has said this myself. The Mirror universe just doesn’t mean the opposite universe. It is actually a bit more layered than what most people give it credit for. Even in Mirror Mirror that was proven with Spock as you pointed out. The guy had a 5 minute conversation with PU Kirk and apparently completely changed his ways and became a more benevolent person in the end. Sure thanks to the Cardassians and Klingons didn’t quite work out lol but yes it does prove people CAN change in this universe too.

But that said it doesn’t mean everyone will either. It’s actually one of the things that bothered me about MU Lorca because I feel he SHOULD have changed at least a little bit more with his time in the PU. It would’ve been a more interesting story IMO if he saw what the Federation was and wanted to take down the Emperor over it but just my opinion.

And that also proves just because some kind change, most probably won’t.

But I still just can’t stand MU Georgiou. Just an awful character all around to me.

Discovery is full of interesting opportunities not taken. Georgiou is one of the biggest. They got a big star to keep coming back, and while she has fun being bad, they had no idea how to properly use her once she was onboard. Lots of cheesy/cumbersome sarcastic and technobabble lines, bad behavior without nuance, and no methodical development of her changing perspective until the very end, making everything from her change of heart to the way the Disco crew fondly remembered her totally unjustified. She had a bond with Michael, but even that rang false once we actually met MU Michael and she had nothing in common with her Prime counterpart. Had they put the work in to actually set her character arc up on screen and used Yeoh properly, it would have been so different and Georgiou would be far less divisive.

Mercy and kindness does exist. But only in that it is a trait that society frowns on. The vast majority do not subscribe to it. This is less nature vs nurture and more what a society deems to be perfectly acceptable and what is not.

DS9, as good a show as it was, did have some erros. The episode that was closest to the MU as presented in TOS was the first one. Crossover. The ones after that really changed things up quite a bit.

On our side of the mirror, I agree with you. Someone ought not be written off who was raised in terrible circumstances. But the MU is not the same. The MU is what it is. They do not consider their society tragic circumstances. They consider OURS tragic. To them Georgeau’s story is a tragedy. A horrid reprogramming of a good person away from the light. And really, from our side, we are attempting to change who she is so she could function better in our world. Is this a good thing? Honestly, she doesn’t belong in this side. That is really the only honest solution to her character. For her to return home.

We will have to agree to disagree. You seem to be inferring way more than was explicitly stated in Mirror, Mirror, and ignoring continuity selectively in order to fit your views.

“Crossover” clearly established that the Terran Empire disarmed and became peaceful and less barbaric. In less than a hundred years. It’s a stretch to assume that was done by Spock in a way other than promoting the empathetic part of human nature. Smiley is your human proof in the episode you cited of that.

Societies change. We are living in a changed society right now which has different values from the one that existed 100 years ago. We have different children all over the world developing values which other societies would frown upon, but those kids could still assimilate into another very different culture successfully, given time. No one forced Georgiou to change, she did it of her own volition.

The MU was created to illustrate the dark potential of humanity, not to provoke debates about the morality of trying to change a vicious society.

No, I am basing it on what we saw in Mirror Mirror. Nothing is being ignored. That is just a convenient excuse. Crossover established that the Terran Empire fell. We can only assume Spock’s influence helped lead to that. Smiley in the MU would be considered a weak loser it seems to me. But he is a character who weirdly was not the opposite of his prime counterpart. Which goes against what Mirror Mirror set up. As I said, DS9 really went with a different take on the MU. The first one was the closest to the original but after that it really bore little to no resemblance. So much so that it was hard to see their MU as the MU from Mirror Mirror.

Societies do change. But would a society change from one where integrity and human rights were respected to one where deception and murder were perfectly acceptable? The point is that while societies change they don’t change 180 degrees like the MU was from the PU.

The MU was mainly there to illustrate another side to our characters and less a comment on dark potential for a whole society.

I think it is silly to get caught up in details like if MU O’Brien was a loser, that’s irrelevant. If “Mirror, Mirror” wasn’t meant to be a comment on the dark potential of society and people being able to change, then the plot wouldn’t have seeded Spock considering Kirk’s entreaty to enact that change. “Crossover” was a logical extension of that plot point, and the Intendant explicitly states that he reformed the empire and brought peace. The empire fell because of external forces, not because MU’s humanity was inherently evil.

So again, Georgiou is a product of a nature vs nurture situation, of a changeable society and thus capable of making her own choices when adapting to a new way of living. That’s as Star Trek an idea as can be, regardless of the messy execution, and a direct reflection of one of the original TOS episode’s messages.

If what you are saying about the MU is true then there really was no need whatsoever to present it to begin with. It’s basically the same a the prime U. Societies and people change and evolve. Big deal.

No. The point of Mirror Mirror was to showcase our characters opposites. As a viewer, this was the obvious point of the episode. Kirk’s plea to Spock on the illogic of being part of an empire he believes is doomed to failure was simply Kirk trying to do what he considered to be the right thing. Make a change to what his society believed was the better way. But he really didn’t fully understand what he was pushing Spock into. Then DS9 picked up on the MU concept and changed it all up to fit what their writers wanted to do with it. DS9 was easily the best of the TOS spinoff shows but even they had bad episodes. Their forays into the MU were among them.

DS9’s version had the Empire falling presumably due to Spock’s influence. He made the Empire weak. The Empire of the Mirror Mirror episode would have never stood for that. There was just no way they would decide what they believed was right (what was wrong from our perspective) no longer was. Not things as deeply ingrained as murder as a means of advancement. Unless the tantelous device made him so powerful they had no choice. But if so then it would not be a change due to “realizing there was a better way” but rather change because if you didn’t Spock would wink you out of existence. There is no way that lasts.

It was called the Mirror universe for a reason. It’s a reverse of ours. At least, that is how that one episode presented it.

…and then ended it on a note of hope for the MU. Seemed pretty obvious to me what the point of that was too.

True but that was really because it was a rare thing to end an episode on a down note. But if one thinks about it, the logical outcome of Spock trying to evoke such a massive change was its failure.

She’s been a protagonist since she join S31

Then set the show in the 24th century. Why does it have to be in the 23rd?

I really like Michelle Yeoh’s work, but a Section 31 show doesn’t sound to me as if it fits very well with Star Trek’s model of a positive future. Section 31 should be the salt in the stew; it shouldn’t be the stew itself.

Let Section 31 stay w/ DS9. Long live Sloan.

I guess I’m the contrarian here, but I’m actually super intrigued about where this series could take Georgiou.

The two part MU pilot showed both MU Georgiou and us that she had changed and that humanity in her universe of origin was irredeemable.

She’s now convinced that the Federation which endured to 32nd century is the superior society. I can see Georgiou fighting through time and space to preserve it in true S31 fashion even if she will never truly be part of that society.

Well said!

If someone who is the product of an irredeemable society can change, then why can’t that society change? The only way that society cannot change is if such behavior is imbedded in the DNA of its occupants. And if it is, then it would seem unlikely that an individual can change. Spock did point out, correctly I think, that it was easier for Krik and his crew to exist in a barbarian society than for the barbarians to exist in ours.

You’re glossing over that Mirror Spock managed to reform the entire Terran Empire to be less totalitarian and more peaceful. So their societies were capable of change, they had just gotten used to being cutthroat.

I was responding to what TG47 said about humanity in the MU being irredeemable. We also don’t really know what what Spock did. Just a couple of lines of dialog about the result 100 years later. And remember, it was really the humans who were opposite people. The Vulcans weren’t opposite. Just more brutal, possibly like their ancient counterparts.

Totally agree, TG47. Like many others, I did not like MU Georgiou. The writing I guess. But I saw a positive turn on her character, at her exit on the show. The Guardian of Forever episodes made me change completely the way I look at her (character) development. Wanted me to learn more. She could be the element/connection between different timelines, also upcoming tv and films.

I like Michelle Yeoh very much. The addition of Paradise and the new writers helped fix all the flaws and patches from Season 1 and 2.

I’m glad it seems like this is still happening. I’m much more excited for this show than I am for Strange New Worlds. Georgiou is a great character, and it sounds like her show will really be different from all of the other series.

Agreed 100%! Same feeling here.

Wow. I feel exactly the opposite. I think Georgiou is a terrible character (despite, oftentimes, great acting by Yeoh), and from what little we know about both series, SNW sounds so much more interesting. Plus there is so little to know about Section 31, that other than a very slightly improved Space Hitler as your main character and an organization that is antithetical to everything Star Trek stands for as the setting, we really don’t know anything about how this show might be different. So far, it sounds like all the worst parts of DIS season 2.

Would only watch if Ron Moore is show runner and William Sadler returns as Sloan, and as the main character, picking off where we left off in DS9. Really don’t care for the Discovery interpretation of Section 31.

Sloan died.

She could have gone back to before that.

Sure, but I’m sure Sadler doesn’t exactly look younger than he did in the 90s.

Das wäre ja kein Problem. Wir wissen nicht wie alt Sloan ist. Sloan könnte hunderte von Jahren sein und sich regelmäßig verjüngen lassen. Sektion 31 hätte die Technologie dafür,wir haben das sowohl bei Kirk und Picard erlebt, dass beide körperliche Regression erlitten haben.

That would be a silly idea for a TV show, though.

I’m honestly really glad to hear it’s still happening. I personally love the idea of Section 31 and I love Georgiou, while S31 might not fit into the positive hopeful future that Star Trek portrays, I don’t think it really contradicts it – there are still many positive aspects in the Trek universe, but that doesn’t mean bad things don’t happen or that there isn’t shady stuff going around.

sigh…here we go again…

The same 15 fans who can’t stand Discovery now complaining about the Section 31 series.

This gets so tiresome.

Well speaking for myself I love Discovery. Am really looking forward to SNW and have just completed my second re-watch of both Lower Decks and Picard. I’ve been a Trek fan since 1980 when aged 5.

And S31 is the only show I am not looking forward to. It’s an interesting concept, sure, but as a series I just don’t think so.

Other than that I like rather than love Discovery, I am totally aligned with you here.




Untrue. I’ve always been a vocal fan of Discovery and of the CBS All-Access era. That has nothing to do with the fact that I never enjoyed Georgiou.

Yes. People seem to be under the impression their online support groups speak for the majority. I’m glad to hear this project is still being developed.

As much as I love Star Trek, for some reason this is only spin-off I am not looking forward to. At all. It may work as a mini-series or a direct-to-stream movie but as a full on series, I just don’t know.

They need to slow down on output as well, too much Trek and we run the risk of Trek-fatigue again.

Even the biggest DSC and PIC fans should be able to recognise that reception to them was tepid and mixed at best. Rather than make these shows competent and viable, Alex goes and tries to get more half-baked shows out there. Someone needs to put an arm around him and say “look champ, I know you’re trying, but perhaps get some people in who actually know how to write good Trek, get DSC and PIC to be good and then bring out other series”.

S31 could be a success as could SNW. Let’s be honest, Kurtzman’s just throwing stuff at a wall and hoping something sticks at this point.

Response to DSC and PIC has not, as you say, been tepid. Not at all. They’ve been very well-received. It’s just a small but vocal group of online whiners complaining about them–and many of them just hate Kurtzman so they pretend the shows are unpopular.

Well perhaps my Google algorithm is different from yours, Lorna, but just typing Star Trek Picard review provides a mixture of reviews for it: negative from the minnows of media of the Guardian, Entertainment Weekly and Wired to 4/5 from Rolling Stone and Empire. I don’t think it has been very well received.

Outside of Trek websites, there has been no hype whatsoever about S2. It’s not a popular show unfortunately.

I was about to say something similar. A quick search for reviews will show that at best the show has “mixed” reviews. From what I can tell, professional critics tend to like it more than the casual fans. But that is only an estimate from the listings I’ve seen.

If DIS was so ‘well received’ they wouldn’t have made all the drastic changes they did in just the three seasons alone. What other show has literally changed it’s entire premise and setting?? None that I can think of. DS9 is probably the second show that changed quite a bit by its third season and again that was DUE to the complaints of it so it was clearly a good thing.

We can pretend like Discovery was loved by the masses and yet it’s practically a different show in third season it is compared to the first.

As for PIC, I think that one got just as many mixed reviews as Discovery did, just A. not as harsh and B. some for very different reasons. But since we haven’t seen season 2 yet I can’t say they made any major changes and IF they didn’t then yeah maybe you can argue they weren’t as bad as Discovery.

And I will say for me, my issues with Picard had more to do with just having a stronger story overall. I didn’t really have many issues with its characters, premise or canon issues like I did with Discovery. Again, my personal issues with it.

Thought, and was hoping this series/idea was cancelled.

Interesting choice of words – “optimistic” implies that either he has hopes for the series (and that’s your standard corporate thing to say) or that it is not yet 100% decided that the series will ever launch.

It is also interesting to see how they talk about mirror Georgiou as if she was the same woman as her prime version. Almost seems like they don’t understand their own concept of mirror identities.

Almost seems like they don’t understand their own concept of mirror identities.

Yes! This! I don’t think they fully understand the concept of the MU. They obviously didn’t grasp S31 based on how they treated them in Star Trek Discovery.

I’ve always thought “Starfleet Intelligence” could be a very good show. (Ditto, “Starfleet Marines.”) Give us a good look at things only hinted at previously. I’m not sure if Section 31 is taking that a bit far, but willing to look.

But section 31 is not supposed to be  “Starfleet Intelligence”, it is a cross between Illuminati and Hydra.

Section 31 is a branch of Starfleet Intelligence. It was sanctioned by the original Starfleet Charter. Article 14, Section 31, allowed for “extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat.”

It may have begun as such (it seems to be part of Starfleet in the time of ENT and even DSC), but by DS9 it seems to act completely independently.

Exactly, that’s my point. There’s enough to explore in the cloak and dagger department without getting all complicated about Section 31. There could be some Intelligence vs. 31 conflict explored, I suppose.

I agree with this. There are a lot of interesting aspects of Starfleet/The Federation that could be explored in a show, and Section 31 is one of the least compelling (for me).

Yes, I think this is a better idea than the one I posted above. Starfleet Intelligence alone would have enough material to explore. You don’t even need S31 as an antagonist necessarily, not when nearly every government we see has a spy service of their own.

He’s said that about every series he’s produced and has in fact, lied, every single time haha.

I can’t pinpoint why, and I’m about to sound like the rest here, but I simply don’t have much interest in this one :/ I don’t know it it’s Michelle, or the idea of a Section 31 centric show. Seems both are like anti-freeze… Sweet’ish at first, but too much will kill you.

My understanding is S31 was being developed to help launch Par+ to the Asian Markets, with an Asian lead actor.
It’s not being developed for North American audiences. Now, this was a few years ago that I heard this theory. Things may have changed since then. I’m pretty sure when the suits saw all of us crying out for a Pike series, S31 took a seat behind them.

Nah, I’m still of that opinion as well. While I’ll watch SNW’s, I’d still prefer fresh content over reimagined Origonal Series characters.

I’ve heard that theory and I find it difficult to buy. It is suggesting that East Asians will not watch any show in large numbers that does not have Asians for leads. Which just doesn’t make rational sense. There could be concepts that would work better in some east Asian countries than they would in the west just because of cultural differences. But those are concepts. Not actors. If the show works for the audience, the ethnicity of the leads don’t really matter. Hence, I reject the “Asian markets” theory.

Why do people keep saying this??? If you have a link, please show it. Because I have read EVERY interview Kurtzman and others have talked about Section 31 and not anywhere have I read it has anything to do with getting in more Asian markets (or China).

At the very least, it’s for North American audiences first and foremost because why create such an ‘inside baseball’ show like Section 31 to a brand new audience? Seem like they would make something just a bit more open like a Voyager type of show where they don’t get lost in all the Star Trek minutiae a premise like Section 31 brings.

It seems like the better show would just be having Carl Guardian drop Michelle Yeoh into different historical moments to correct them. Then again, this is the best creative team in Hollywood, so, I’m going to trust their process.

Several episodes of DS9 touched on decisions Captain Sisko made for the greater good, that left him very compromised personally. Done right, this show could tell a few more of those stories of life in the Federation secured by those whos work would never be acknowledged publically by the UFP. I’d watch that.

Yeah ‘done right’. I think that’s the problem, many felt the version of S31 in Discovery was far from done right and none of those story lines matched anything close to what we saw in DS9. S31 in Discovery didn’t question anything they did. This was the same group that was going to give Spock a lobotomy. The only time they admitted they messed up is when their when their killer bot A.I. wanted to wipe out the galaxy and was willing to wipe out the Federation along with it, the organization it was created to protect.

And even then you never got ONE scene, not one, where someone in that group questioned that maybe they were given too much authority or power. It would’ve been nice to have a scene like what we saw between Bashier and Admiral Ross discussing Section 31 actions (please don’t make me look up the name of that episode) even if they hated the idea of it personally but why they were necessary. And the irony is that scene is what convinced me WHY Section 31 was needed in Star Trek even if I still mostly agreed with Bashir’s side. That’s what good writing is! Why I don’t have an issue with them there now.

Now maybe with a show, we will see more layers of people discussing how far do you go for the ‘greater good’ but it was never remotely on display with Discovery.

I wonder if the show will be like the show DC Legends of Tomorrow. Have her team up with a different group of people to help preserve the timeline. Harry Mudd I would put on the show.

Legends is the most light hearted of the Arrowverse shows and is done VERY tongue in cheek. It doesn’t sound at all like they are going with light regarding evil-Georgeau.

I’m not into the entire S31 thing. Seems like a lame duck series.
But yet not as bad an idea as the ultra lame duck Worf series that gets brought up every few months
I say just combine the two ideas for on 30 minute featurette and kill off both Work and S31 at the same the end.
Thus ending these boring ideas forever.

The difference is the Worf show is NOT a real thing. It’s only something Michael Dorn was pushing and never got any actual traction at the studio. NO ONE seem to want it, including a lot of fans.

With S31, its obviously a serious contender for a show. It was literally the first spin off announced in fact. But I do think the push back from fans is why that show is not in production now and why SNW is which WASN’T an actual show until fans demanded one…loudly.

My guess is what Kurtzman saying is partly true, the virus had to make them change some of their plans. But it was probably also used as an excuse to delay the show for however long they wanted to and maybe even retool some of its ideas. That is just my speculation only though.

But I don’t completely buy it. Fans were even claiming it got delayed because Michelle Yeoh was so busy with all her movie projects. Apparently she wasn’t that busy if she could still sign up for a new Netflix show that the article stated. I think the real answer is they knew the show is very divisive (as this board makes clear ;)) and just put it on the back burner while going with the sure fire winner with SNW and that simply took its place in the line up.

i think it starts up after picard season 3 / that show ends…i think they want only 3 live action shows on at once over the course of a year, plus the 2 animated ones….which is more than enough

It’s funny, every time I hear Alex and Michelle talk, I’m reminded of students desperately trying to pad their essays to meet the minimum word count.

OK, so I’m still convinced this show is based on a terrible premise. Possibly even worse than lawless teens in the delta quadrant. (although unlike this premise the more we learn about that show the less I’m concerned about the ‘lawless teens’ part) It’s not the concept of a Section 31 show. While that is not my first choice I’ve softened my opinion of such a show. But I think a S31 show has much more potential if it were set in the TNG era. It does have potential but looking at how they handled Section 31 in Star Trek Discovery S2 it also has a much higher potential to be terrible. But their first, and perhaps biggest problem, is they have absolutely no idea what the problems of having Evil-Georgeau as the lead character of any show. Much less a Section 31 one. According to the article Space Pol Pot has developed bonds and is “coming to terms” with what she has done. Problem… As someone from opposite land, from her perspective she has done absolutely nothing wrong. She was acting perfectly normal for someone in her circumstance. To her, it’s everyone on our side of the mirror who are messed up. Therefore, if, as was easily predicted 3 years ago, the emotional crux of the show will be Space Stalin growing a conscious, then the show is pretty much fated for failure on nearly every level. This might work better with a new character who made a very tragic decision or two and is coming to terms with the guilt. But this is something very different indeed.

Drop her into the “lost era” between TOS films and TNG. Section 31 goes underground. It would be fascinating to see the early/mid 2300’s for the first time and through the lens of a covert organization.

I’ll join my voice to the chorus: I do not want to watch this Section 31 show.

If the premise of the new Section 31 show is, as some have speculated, to have the characters travel through time to protect the timeline, hasn’t that already been done in Legends of Tomorrow, Loki, ad naseum?

Sure, but all the best Star Trek rips off from better stories. And this show will have technobabble unique to this universe and characters and drama written by the best writers in the business today (which is more than LoT and Loki and any of the Marvel franchises can say!). Finally, as long as it has the name Star Trek on it, people will watch it and love it more than any other show, which is why the P+ Trek shows are the most popular and most viewed science fiction shows available today.

Wow, Tiberius, are you related to Alex Kurtzman?

Let’s just say this house recognizes the Tom Cruise MUMMY as the superior portrayal of that character and CLARICE a more socially relevant and creatively faithful adaptation of the Thomas Harris universe.

Wow, that’s a relief, I thought we had to take you at your word for a minute.

Bravo, kmart! I love zingers that come in one line!

I can’t wait. Damn Covid.

Yes, A34. How ironic.

(and 3, 2, 1…..)