Spiner On Nemesis Failure: The fans were done with us January 19, 2007
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Feature Films (TMP-NEM), TNG , trackback
In the latest issue of Star Trek Magazine, Brent Spiner (Data) talks about the last Trek movie, Star Trek Nemesis. Not only did Spiner star in Nemesis, but he co-wrote the story (along with screenwriter John Logan). Spiner on why the film failed
We worked on the story with the intention of making it for the fans. With every Star Trek movie prior to that we tried to find a way to bridge the gap between the fans and the general public. Even reading the latest quotes from J.J. Abrams about the next movie, it makes sense for the movie to be as inclusive as possible. With Nemesis we said, ‘Forget that! Lets make a movie for the fans, because that’s the people who actually go to see the films.’ And what happened? They didn’t go! Usually the films opened big, even if they had a lot of competition, but Nemesis didn’t even do that. This was a message from the fans that they were done with us.
Knew it was over for TNG era, agrees it is time for a new Trek
Spiner also tells the magazine that he made the call on the death of his character Data in Nemesis noting that at over 50 he was getting a bit old to play the ‘child like’ android. He also stated that they saw the writing on the wall for the TNG cast:
It was my decision, but I didn’t have to kill Data. We were all pretty much aware that this was going to be our last film and as such thought we’d go for broke.
Although Spiner has previously questioned JJ Abrams plans to do a prequel, he does seem to support Paramount going with a fresh start to the Trek Franchise
I think they’re right to start a new movie franchise that will hopefully spawn a new series that will spawn new movies.
For more from Spiner see the Star Trek Magazine on stands now
excerpts at SciFi Pulse (h/t Gustavo)
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Mr. Spiner seems to forget that the story sucked in Nemesis. We (the fans-some) were not done with Trek or the TNG crew. But when the Picard & Data Show continued, and the PC involved, that’s what brought the movie franchise down in the end. Just MHO, folks…
Let’s move on. Mr. Abrams is getting his chance. I have high hopes for his and our quest to find a new and/or better direction for Trek.
MAX
I believe Nemesis failed because they tried to hard to be something they are not. They wanted to be Star Trek II, but found out the hard way they couldn’t.
The plot was weak, the characterizations were weak, and the director couldn’t care less. He got his money.
I had no problem with them killing off Data, because the actor felt like he was getting too old to play a character who doesn’t age. But, don’t kill him off, then reintroduce a lesser evolved character, being played no less by the same actor. What was the point?
Also, reintroduce Wesley Crusher, but cut out all his scenes? What was the point?
And, that is why I think the fans finally said, “Fuck this shit!” and didn’t support this last movie for the TNG crew.
WHAT WAS THE POINT?
Maybe the TNG cast will still get that nice send off. It was called of sad to see a Jennifer Lopez movie gross more money then a Star Trek movie. Really the only thing the Star Trek franchise needed was a new writing team. Rick Berman made the right choice to put Manny Cotto in charge of Enterprise but the problem with that it was to late. After Voyager drifted away from it’s fresh new premise that was the downfall of Trek. Voyager did produce some outstanding Episode I will give that show that.
#2 you described all the TNG movies perfectly in your Nemesis rant. I don’t know why the fans think only Nemesis sucked.
#3 Manny Cotto is really nothing but a panderer who thought he could save a show by inserting all the TOS references he could into each episode. What he didn’t do is improve the writing, the dull characters, or the Vulcan girl’s pontoon lips.
I think that putting a sub-par movie against titans like LOTR and Harry Potter was suicide. Most fans of Trek in the 80s and 90s have children now and the kids wanted to see Harry not Schinzon. Lame film plus bad timing doomed Trek X. Not even Carbomite shields and Quantum torpedoes could help.
I think the best part of the movie was the Reman warbird, Scimitar. Were any model kits made of that ship?
I think he also forgot the fact that Nemesis(which I liked BTW) was released one week prior to The Two Towers. How do you expect to compete against a big movie like that???? That is the biggest reason why it failed.
I enjoyed First Contact, actually. That one was quite good.
I think the TNG cast did great work, the preoblem was what they were given to work with. When it comes down to it, TNG only had a few good seasons and one good movie, which was FC.
“…or the Vulcan girl’s pontoon lips.”
lol
Actually the last film wasn’t half bad and thats part of the problem. It seems that they stopped in development (or drafts) of the story and had they just taken more time – put more thought into it – then it could have been good.
After all….how many of you fans watched Nemesis and said What – Why?
The story was often a direct contradiction to what was in the series and prior films. Remember the part with Picard showing him as being bald at Starfleet Academy? How warped was that? And the lack of development of the Romulans really was awful. The story was too big and handled too lightly.
# 1 was right: The fans aren’t tired of Star Trek but just tired of traveling down a path that needs to be resurfaced because it has too many curves and bumps and thats not what Star Trek should be about in order to tell a good story….now is it? Character and story development MUST go hand in hand or this story will fall flat and Star Trek will be a memory forever lost.
#2 was right – Nemesis was a poor man’s remake of Star Trek II with a significantly weaker antagonist. Nobody cared because everybody had seen it done and done better.
In all my life I’d only seen Nemesis and Insurrection ONCE.
Normally I’ll see a Trek flick at least once in the theater and then a couple dozen times on video.
Starting with ‘Insurrection’ I skipped the theater — and didn’t shed a tear once I’d finally gotten to see it.
Same went for Nemesis.
However, I decided recently to go back and give Nemesis another shot with an open mind. Seeing it a second time, earlier this past year, was interesting. I actually ended up enjoying it. Yes, I rolled my eyes at the Argo and Picard’s hair situation in the Academy photo, and the silly dramatic lighting on Troy’s face during the psychic head-game bit during the ending, but overall I could definitely appreciate what they were TRYING to do, and it turned out to be a far better flick than my jaded memories had led me to remember. The music was great, too, especially in that opening shot while descending onto Romulus.
I had a similar reaction to Generations — I’d always considered that a weak entry, too, but I watched that again the same night as Nemesis and found things to respect about that as well.
I don’t have much hope for Insurrection, but I’ll give that a shot again at some point. I can still see that joystick rising up on the bridge in my minds eye, though, and I think if I see that again I’ll just come apart laughing. :)
——————-
Anyways, ripping on Coto and calling him a ‘panderer’? Jesus man, the show was supposed to be *about* the beginnings of the Federation.
They spent 2 years jerking off Voyager-style, and another year making a limp effort (though I’d like to go back and give them a second shot, like I did with the flicks above). They finally get some stories that are actually relevant to Star Trek history and that’s *not okay*?
If the stories were weak name dropping sessions I would agree, but that fourth season, once they wrapped up the cliffhanger ep, was mostly quite STRONG and actually made me a regular viewer right until the end.
Given how absolutely bored I was with the Trek franchise thanks to Voyager and (at the time) the flicks, that’s a powerful testament.
10 – I agree with what you said about character and story development being crucial to Trek, but then when you went to pick out examples of where Nemesis went wrong you chose minor continuity nitpicks. How does whether or not Picard was shown as bald in the academy when he really wasn’t according to a prior episode constitute a deficit of STORY development? Story development does NOT equal continuity fact checking.
I suspect XI will have all kinds of little gaffs like the young bald Picard moment in Nemesis. But that won’t be how I judge the film as a story.
I agree with what you said about the Romulans, though.
Nemesis failed because it was BAAAAAAAD. Stop blaming the fans, Brent… fans can take pretty much anything, but this was simply too much. The sh*t did finally hit the fans, so to say. :-)
I mean, like… VAMPIRES (of the future!)? Dune buggy (of the future!)? The Medusa beam? Vast darkened factory-like coridors, hidden somewhere inside 24th-century starship? One more (never mentioned) Soong android, in exclusive 6-pieces puzzle design?What the hell were you thinking? ;-)
Nemesis failed because:
• A terrible stroy
• major continuity errors
• they should have continued on the unification storyline and had Shela come back (so the entire cast would have been in)
• a CAR in Star Trek?? Wat where they thinking…
• the remans looked to Orkish. Why not have made them like the white Andorians
• SHINZON! A big mistake…
Nemesis was bad because cast and crew really didn’t give a damn. Berman and Braga had screwed the franchise up horribly. The Picard and Data routine was getting old. Stewart had a new franchise in X-Men, so he just wanted to drive dune buggies. Frakes, who had done passable work as director previously, was passed over for Stuart Baird. Baird, who may have been a good editor on Superman, is a lackluster director who had no knowledge or concern for Star Trek, and it showed. The plot was a inconsistent mishmash. The death of Data was pointless. The only good thing was the Riker/Troi marriage: and they could have done that better.
I am not holding out hope for Abrams’ Star Trek: a redo will have to adhere to continuity VERY closely, or do the REIMAGINING bit. It worked with Galactica, but Galactica is not Star Trek. New BG did not try to fit into the original BG continuity, which ST 11 appears to be trying to do with Star Trek. If they reimagine it, it will come off like Enterprise: it won’t be Star Trek. We will start to get the fracturing and anything goes situations like “Ultimate This” and “All-Star That” in the comics.
I have said, in other places, that Star Trek is dead. Star Trek is not dead: it is alive right now with Star Trek Remastered: they are are doing good work on that. And ultimately, Star Trek is alive with the fans.
Maybe Abrams can do good in spite of what I think: it would be great to be proven wrong. I hope he doesn’t lost along the way.
# 13: You’re right of course but I meant to imply was that they simply overlooked something though being small in part was what made the
last film so bad. It was like comparing both coins and paper money because in the end they’re all tied together.
Everything was overlooked – a rush job. So….part of proper continuity does make for a good film otherwise I feel you have appetizers being mixed in with your main dish = your story. Thats very sloppy!
“The fans were done with us….We worked on the story with the intention of making it for the fans.”
With the immortal words of Alfre Woodard as Lily in FC: BULLSHIT!
I am (still) a fan and I (still) want to see more TNG (and DS9 and VOY)! I like to believe that every TNG or trek fan likes to watch old reruns EVERYDAY (not just me ;) )! I can only imagine how many TNG (and DS9 and VOY) DVD sets are now still being sold everyday! The idea that the fans could be done with anything the love and support is crazy.
If us fans would be done we wouldn’t be criticizing! We want it and we want it good! When I first saw the movie I was more puzzled from cut to cut, saying What – Why? ALL THE TIME! When it was over I forgot what the story was all about in a week.
Actually I am very suprised that the Nemesis staff was SO out of contact with the fans. I find these remarks offensive! They made almost the direct opposite of a movie for the fans.
Wow, first Marina Sirtis blames the fans for breaking her unwritten code of internet silence and now Spiner blames the fans for NOT coming to INSER-WRECK-TION.
Spock, tricorder,
are you picking up a pattern here?
No Mr. Spiner… the message from the fans was not “We’re done with you”. The message was “we’re done with bad writing”, “we’re done with Paramount’s horrible marketing and release schedule” and “we’re done with B&B”. If anything, I think, in 2002 atleast, fans were willing to give TNG another chance (and I think even today, a lot of fans want to see that “closure” to the 24th Century storyline… I’m content with moving on and believe the “future” of the Star Trek franchise is in it’s “past”, back in it’s roots with solid story telling about Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the NCC-1701). So, Brent, get off your high horse and realize that you guys made a turd, and that the fan disdain has nothing to with TNG as a whole being old, but with worn out storytelling loosing out.
Is it just me or he is very pompous and self absorbed? Just like Marina (side-bar; does anyone still frequent Trekweb? If you don’t, you missed some very funny message threads that started with “Marina Sirtis is Pissed at Trek Web”, to be followed by “Grace Lee Whitney is pissed at…” where someone suggested that Grace Lee Whitney was mad because she was the first underused sex pot character in Star Trek, long before Marina. And then the many imitations… XYZ is pissed at Trekweb, Trekweb is pissed at XYZ and my favorite, “Trekweb is pissed at you”. LOL). Sorry Brent et al… realize that gravy train has ran out of steam? Go back to concocting fan boy wet dreams then… maybe after XI is successful, Paramount will pick up on your original idea for XI and produce it as XII… we can have all the captains to team up against the Borg/Romulan/Kazon/Sphere Builder/Dominion alliance, or whatever the hell wacky idea you had… yeah, that’s good story telling (uh… sarcasm, if you hadn’t caught that yet!)
These guys need a fundamental reality check. NEMESIS WAS CRAP, story-wise and execution-wise, it was such a faint shadow of Star Trek, that is the reason even the fans didnt go, and that was their message.
Kinda reminds me of the infamous “franchise fatigue” or “fan fatigue” that Braga kept spitting out to justify his weak material. As you can see, such thinking (or lack thereof) is not restricted to the fans’ favorite foes.
Time to join the band wagon. Nemesis failed because it took the old line that you can pump out any old rubbish and Trek fans will go and see it. Well they were wrong, previous postings have already run down the problems with the film. The point is, if you want to make a film and direct it at existing fans then don’t screw around with established history.
On the other hand if your aiming at attracting a new audience, as XI reports to be doing then background detail is of far less importance. A new audience is far more interested in a good story, with characters that mess well together. And who knows if it is done well enough maybe some existing fans will like the movie as well.
LLAP
I have no doubt that they set out to make a good movie for the fans, but what it really ended up as was a bad movie for everyone.
Stewart and Spiner took over the franchise, built the plots around their characters, and used it as a vehichle for self important indulgences. Insurrection and Nemesis were awful, embarrassing movies to any Trek fan who wanted to share the movie going experience with someone new to the franchise.
I would, like many others, also love to see them back for a good movie. But that is the key. I don’t know why it’s so hard to make a good movie. Please no more Picard, Data, and/or Worf singing.
“Nemesis” was 4 years after “Resurrection” which was also a bad story. They waited too long. I thought “First Contact” was the best of the bunch of TNG movies. I don’t see how “Nemesis” was for the fans– the wedding scene was unsatisfactory — it had Whoopi, Wesley had no lines (maybe that was good). The story did not conclude anything — and Data didn’t die just like Spock didn’t, not very original. We didn’t need one more movie that saved the Earth or the Federation
Season 4 of Enterprise was everything the rest of the series should have been. Manny Coto was not a “pandering” show runner. He is a Trek fan, first and foremost and probably could tell Berman and other more about the history of the Federation than anyone else working on the set.
A Trek fan in charge of a Trek series? That is actually a big plus when you consider the lackluster efforts of the previous three seasons, although I do have to give them great credit for the shot at a full season arc. The story was NOT outstanding, but the effort behind making it work with no prior experience was outstanding.
Enterprise finally hit its stride with the 4th season. Its too bad the fans didn’t find out about it in time to really make the difference.
The TNG movies got off to a bad start and never really got going. The TOS films managed to create interesting stories ***based on*** TOS, rather than being TOS on the big screen.
Between TOS and TMP and between TMP and TWOK, the design aesthetic of Trek changed, the style of storytelling changed. Everything altered, because of the number of years that had passed between TOS and TMP. Issues such as the aging of the major characters had to be discussed and the designs of the ships and uniforms inevitably had to alter.
TNG, though, first appeared in a rushed-out hybrid film using TV costumes and sets, along with recycled footage from previous films (nothing new in that, but it was rather obvious here!) If ever there was a case of alienating the Star Trek fans, Generations was it! Scotty and Chekov turn up talking a bit like Spock and McCoy, then spouting off dialogue like ‘phasing in and out of the space-time continuum’ which wasn’t the sort of thing you’d ever hear in TOS and its films and calling Jim ‘Captain!’
Then the rest of the film comes over as a cheap greatest hits collection of warmed up leftovers from TNG and TOS. There was nothing new in the film, it took Star Trek in general precisely nowhere and was a slap in the face to fans of TNG and particularly fans of TOS.
First Contact worked in the cinema because it wasn’t a Star Trek film: it was ‘Die Hard meets Night of the Living Dead on the Enterprise!’ Although time travel had been done to death in Trek by then (you’ve got a 23rd/24th century-set series that can go pretty anywhere in the galaxy and you have to keep travelling back in time? That says to me that there’s something wrong with your series’ setting!) it was fun.
Insurrection was more of TNG episode pastiche than a movie. I enjoyed it in switch-off-brain kind of way, as the vanilla-drama that TNG mostly tended to present, but who would have cared, had it been a direct-to-DVD presentation?!)
And Nemesis was just a disaster from start to finish. I suspect fans were fed up of TNG-era Trek by then. It wasn’t entirely the TNG cast’s fault, but TNG’s follow-ups (including Enterprise) had mostly failed to differentiate themselves sufficiently from TNG, even to the point of their style of dialogue and plotting not changing since the early 1990s.
TNG-era Trek and Enterprise had got into a rut and the creativity had long gone. People just weren’t that bothered to go to see it. The fact the film looked like it had been hacked to shreds by a pair of rusty scissors in the edit suite didn’t do it any favours either!
I’ve said before that TNG became a very solid TV show, built around an ensemble cast, but ensemble cast TV dramas just don’t translate well to movies. That’s ***not*** a bad thing, just an inevitability. TOS had the advantage of having years between the show and its movies and a smaller main cast with a solid supporting cast, so could work in the cinema.
So Spiner’s right about people being done with TNG: it had been done to death on TV. But there was deeper malaise in Trek, for which Spiner was partly responsible. Trek had locked itself in a time bubble, telling early-1990s-style stories spouting 1980s and 1990s philosophy when TV and film had changed. Trek was still living in the era of Baywatch, 90210 and Quantum Leap, when viewers had seen The X Files, Buffy, Babylon 5, Stargate, Angel, Alias, Lost and other shows move on-screen drama ever forwards.
For Abrams’ Trek to succeed, he needs to take the TOS characters and ***translate*** them and their universe into a 21st century drama. I’m sure he can do it and, frankly, as long as people aren’t sitting in the cinema with a torch and a heavily-annotated Star Trek Chronology on their laps, they should be able to come away from the new film happy bunnies.
Marina Sirtis said that this film was being aimed at Lost viewers and their ilk,as if it was a negative. These are the programmes viewers are watching right now. These are the very people the film needs to aim at.
Exciting times are ahead!
Paramount should have either released this movie a month before LOTR: The Two Towers or a month later, it’s just that simple. I enjoyed ‘Nemesis’ very much. It also didn’t help that they waited sooo long after ‘Insurrection’.
I think the tv series (TNG) also had more time to find its ‘legs’ on the small screen, given the opportunity to present a weekly show over 7 years. With features, you’re lucky to get one film every 2 – 4 years, which is far too much time to be finding your way… The tv series didn’t translate well into features. There are many theories as to why, and most of those theories are all probably a little bit true. In the end, people do understand the difference between tv and the big screen, and therefore expect more on the big screen. You can’t just drag-and-drop a tv show onto the big screen… This is something the TOS cast and producers understood. Yes, TMP may not have been the best TOS film, but if you compare that film with one of the TOS episodes, you can see the difference in the scope of the film, and the expansion of their vision. And I am not merely talking about the appearance or the effects…
I think ST films must have a kind of “greatest adventure of all-time” premise right from the beginning, which then (hopefully) turns out to make a great film. I think this is where FC got on the right wagon, and came closer to giving us a “great adventure”, whereas INS and NEM were
“too-small adventures”, and GEN was just despicable for killing off Kirk.
It would have been better to have Patrick Stewart play his clone (written to be equally aged). I could not suspend disbelief and had nothing invested in watching another actor play an alternate version of Picard. The premise is only meaningful if the characters can be seen truly look in the mirror. There was no way this was going to work otherwise.
Nemesis sucked donkey balls. Thats why it had a low gross at the box office.
Comparing Nemesis to the TNG television finale “All Good Things” it’s painfully obvious that Spiner is either 1) full of it or 2) foolish.
Nemesis was not for the fans. It was derivative trash. But then again, aside from some parts of First Contact, all of TNG’s movies were poorly executed. Contrast that with “All Good Things,” a two hour episode that was inventive, smart and truly for TNG fans with its signature take on Star Trek. It astounds me that a show that had that much momentum leaving TV could fumble the football so dramatically. I personally blame Rick Berman’s stranglehold on the series. He had poor judgment, IMHO (Never used Q in the films, something I thought was a no-brainer!).
But back to Spiner, I find it amusing that he says “we all knew this would be our last movie, so we went for broke” but hasn’t it been widely reported that he and Logan had a Trek XI pitch ready to go for the “Justice League” Star Trek movie? Yeah… goin’ for broke indeed!
Adios TNG, I’m sorry it had to end this way.
Everyone says the bad story killed Nemesis,but I have to agree with Spiner. This movie tanked on opening day and went south from there.. It was beat by J-lo for crying out loud. People usually don’t develop an opinion before they’ve even seen the film, sure, they’ll bitch and moan about how they wasted their money afterward….but initially, they have to plunk down that hard earned money first. It was the sheer lack of bodies in seats that made the film open so poorly…not the bad story. Spiner was essentially right, most of the fans and especially the general public was done with Trek…in that incarnation anyway.
A lack of unique bodies or a lack of repeat business that the more successful Trek films benefited from?
Heavy sigh~~
……… perhaps its just that maybe we grow bored of TNG cast, and their desprate sour grapes and jealousness after their turkey wannabe Trek Movies that they did after their tv show.
So in the words of Capt Kirk/Denny Crane/Shatner…”.. get a life!”… Spiner.
…”Sounds like somebody woke up on the wrong side of the rock..” Taken From the latest Gieco commercial….lol
I don’t care what Spinner says. I do hope we get one more TNG film to say goodbye. It can be a made for tv miniseries, or a motion picure.. I really don’t care. And yes, please put Q in it. Q is the one character I always wanted to see in the movies.
I had hoped that they would have adapted Diane Duane’s “Dark Mirror” for the tenth ST movie. That would have kicked. BUTT. Instead, we got Star Trek: The Next Generation’s Wrath of Shitzon-you.
I think I feel a nasty comment coming….. But no I guess I’ll just agree with Adam’s usual more diplomatic statements (He is our science officer afterall) The Next Gen Era of Trek is dead, let it rest in relative peace. I Thank god it couldn’t pull real Trek into the grave with it.
He can’t be serious: NEMESIS is so far removed from the fans. The fact that Lore is never mentioned when they discover another Soong android is an attempt to not confuse the general public. The frivolous action nature of the film was also an attempt to “bridge the gap” as he puts it, not cater to TREK fans who want intelligent, socio-allegorical drama. NEMESIS is exactly the opposite of what he’s trying to paint it as, both in intent and execution, and for that reason I believe Spiner’s bitter and trying to reverse-psych us all.
Brent….Houston….Convention…90’s?
Remember the conversation we had about the state of the writing? This was back during the 5th or 6th season of TNG….the writing was getting stale.
I conveyed to you that the writing was not as good and the writing staff needed to change….wholesale.
Well, WRITING and direction is what killed the TNG movies. It was just a continuation of the LAME ASS writing of the latter seasons of TNG.
The movies became the Picard and Data show and that’s yet another reason why the films failed. If someone like Nicholas Meyer wrote a TNG movie and directed it, I GUARANTEE YOU it would be a hit.
TTM
Oh…and Brent (fellow Houstonian)…
How can you say Nemesis was for the fans? By having that wedding scene? Whoopedeedooo!!! Here’s how I would have made it for the fans:
1.) Would have followed up on the cliffhanger from the first season episode Conspiracy (with the little bug aliens). Or at the very least used another villain from TNG — what about Commander Tomalok? That damned PICARD CLONE was a BORING character. Nobody CARED! We had no vested interest and the character wasn’t interesting enough to generate an interest. LOL That’s the big reason why Nemesis sucked.
2.) Would have made the film a COMPLETE ensemble piece…focusing on the strengths of each of the characters….kind of like the way The Undiscovered Country did or Star Trek III did (for example). Give all the characters an INTEGRAL part in the plot and jeopardy. I didn’t get this from Nemesis.
3.) Would have cut Jerry Goldsmith loose with regard to the musical score. I mean, damn….you KNOW it’s bad when Goldsmith just turns in routine performance. HELL! Even Supergirl had a better musical score. But, then I guess Berman made Goldsmith turn in another fine sonic wallpaper score….UGH!! IDIOT!!!! Sadly, since Goldsmith is no longer with us (may he rest in peace) that lame ass score will be his final Trek score. Dammit!
4.) Sure…kill Data…but at LEAST plant the seeds for it early in the movie…and do it with some real sense of dramatic jeopardy. That was one of the most forgettable cinematic “deaths” I have ever seen. We could have had a scene with him viewing Tasha’s hologram towards the beginning of the film…and a conversation about “what is death?” or something that would bookend the death scene at the end. To tie the villain in…the alien bugs…would people taken over by them truly be “alive” in the way they were? Subtext! Ever hear of that?! See…there ARE ways to make a great TNG film.
I am just saying if the film was to be about Data’s death…and not just tacked on as it was…the story and characterizations should SUPPORT THAT.
GAH!!!!
Anyway, just a few suggestions that might have made all the difference in the world with regard to box office.
TTM
Yeah, no Lore mention either…LAME!!!!
Nemesis had nothing to do with the fans. Even Wesley Crusher was cut from the much ballyhooed wedding scene…
TTM
IIRC, many years ago, David Gerrold was asked how many films the Trek movie series could last out! His reply was ‘probably one too many!’
In the case of TNG, they made four too many. ‘All Good Things . . . was a great finale to TNG. Had TNG finished then and not been incompetently dumped into a different medium, it would be fondly remembered. The TNG movies probably ***wrecked*** most people’s perception of TNG in general.
When Riker piloted the Enterprise with that Thrustmaster Joystick in Insurrection, I had lost all hope for the franchise. The Data-kid stuff was all rehashes from plots from earlier seasons. Data does– or does not– have an emotion chip Starfleet is willing to wipe out a whole planet to save a bunch of degenerates. Never mind the inhabitants, what about the plant and animal life? Even Carol Marcus wouldn’t do experiments on a planet with so much as a microbe on it.
As for Nemesis, well…..
-Picard has a Romulan Clone. Cheesy B-movie sci-fi.
-Data has another “brother.” Cheesy, soap opera plot.
-Picard was bald in SF Academy now.
-Even if Wesley was there, what about the Traveller? And isn’t he in trouble for standing up to Picard?
-The Romulan ship could have just gone to Earth at any time and done their evil thing. The confrontation with Picard was pointless. You never got the idea, like you did with Khan and Kirk, that he had to defeat his nemesis, everything else being secondary.
-How can one ship ram the other with both presumably having navigational deflectors?
-Every scene was trying to be iconic, and trying to channel Nick Meyer.
Spiner, who I think is a great actor, is displaying sour grapes here. He could have done himself a favor if he had either a) not commented on Nemesis at all, or b) if he must commment, just say they screwed up. It was, after all, a bad movie. Everyone knows that.
I agree that Nemesis tried to be ST II. One night I got drunk and watched it (it wasn’t quite as bad drunk), and also noticed in another run-thru, that it is also trying to be ST VI. Peace with the Romulans, etc.
If they had the chance (which I doubt will ever happen) they could even try to be ST III, by doing a “Search For Data” where they download Data’s marbles into the brother droid…
I agree! I agree! Iagree! –although there were a few points in Nemesis I liked, it was still the same rehash…
and “Hey! we need a climactic ending!… I know! let’s kill a main character!” They did this on Enterprise and on DS9″
Stop trying to redo Spock’s death. That gimmick worked once. Fans aren’t stupid. At least Spock sacrificed himself in a believable and hearfelt way. Kirk & Spock saying goodbye was awesome. Data may as well have just taken out his power cells. and the energizer bunny could have gone across the screen.
Once again, what about ST’s mission? new life forms & new civilizations… the key word here is NEW! the dominion war? The Mirror universe? A Decent crossover between generations?
So data is ressurected in a less evolved android that is regaining datas programming and looks older… so what! How ’bout that deleted scene with the seat belts? Sacrilige! How boring would it be if no one flew all over the place.
Bad decisions, poor story, bad release. I wanted to learn more about the romulans and remans.. more about spock’s effort at reunification, not dune buggies, scavenger hunts and honeymoons
It was just lame! I thought the Romulans on the big screen Cool!
The Senate look look like a Town Hall not the seat of the Mighty Romulan Star Empire. A Coup and only Two Warbirds? The Remans Vampires?
How do they build and fly those ships with manicures like that?
The earth about to be wiped out and Where was the Federation Fleet?
On a matt chart! Would have been nice to see the USS Titan.
They had an opportunity with a Romulan Story, Unification as a back drop and they blew it. See the Argo, see the Argo Go. An off road race.,Please!
…Typical Spiner. Blame the fans for the movie’s failure, rather than admit that the script he was partially repsonsible for wasn’t up to snuff.
Note to Spiner: ever notice how few people are crying for Data’s return as compared to those demanding Spock be resurrected?
[shakes head in complete dismay]
Despite its lackluster nature I went to see this movie FIVE times in cinema. I was hoping to support the franchise and find some closure to the TNG era. Up to NEM I was far from being done with the NG era. After INS I wanted them to continue or at least say goodbye in a decent way.
But what did we get? Another Picard 007 saving the galaxy from just another superweapon, this time crashing his ship into an alien predator and driving around in ridiculous space cars.
They sacrificed Data, the key character of NG, for nothing and completely neglected once again all other major characters.
First Contact was the only great NG movie. It had adventure, thrill AND a lot to do for all seven characters. Even though it devolved Picard and others into aggressive gunfighters it captured lots of eternal Trek moments i.e. the Phoenix, First Contact itself etc…It was fun without being ridiculous at any time. And it had a superb score (as had Generations but none of the later movies)…
The TNG series was intelligent utopian entertainment about an era of diplomacy and peace…no real evil villains, no big showdowns, all just shades of grey…
The TNG movies gaves us relentless, good vs. evil 007 action in space, turning the once so thoughtful Picard into an action hero worse than Bond, Schwarzenegger and Stallone combined…They managed to sacrifice Kirk and Data for nothing, destroyed the beautiful NCC-1701-D to replace her with an ugly sinister chariot of fire.
While I kinda enjoyed the space fights in INS and NEM they should have been part of bigger, far more epic stories. While I’m looking forward for Abrams’ take on the early TOS-era, I really hope for another fitting swan song for TNG…made directly on DVD without a big budget to blow up things, without another arch enemy nobody cares about but full of exploration, emotional satisfaction and true closure…
Bring back Ira Behr or Manny Coto to wrap up what B&B left behind in shreds…same goes for ENTERPRISE and even VOYAGER…
Give them all back some purpose…
Sorry Brent–wrong conclusion. Fans were NOT done with you. After Insurrection we were more cautious. And I, for one, was not thrilled with Nemesis.
As big a TNGer as I am, my mind wandered during the film when I noticed Picard and Shinzon were talking and talking and talking. Yawn.
And B4 was an idea which has been to the well too many times. Creative bankruptcy.
Wesley Crusher–NOOOOOO! Cutting his scenes probably came about because Wheaton was carping like a Klingon without his Kaopectate and the produces said who needs him. I for one say nobody,
I agree with several points made–a weak story in particular. If it ain’t on the page, it ain’t on the stage. Also the release against Twin Towers was really stupid. When will Paramount learn to release these things when the competition is less intense–like March or September. This isn’t Star Wars–the appeal is more limited (which has been Star Trek’s main enemy since day one).
I’m kind of sick of the cast and many fans blaming the mess that was Nemesis on Stuart Baird. So what if he reportedly thought that Geordi was meant to be an alien, or if he mispronounced someone’s name. In the end, the director’s job is to pull the film together and present the story in the best possible fashion. From my perspective, in terms of the visuals, style and performances he elicited from his cast, I think he did a good job. No, he’s no David Fincher or Steven Spielberg or James Cameron, but he did well with the material he was presented. Frankly, the cut scenes (as presented on the DVDs) add very little. The script and story were crap, pure and simple.
I maintain that from a visual perspective he did a good job, better than Frakes would have done. The film looked a hell of a lot more professional in the manner it was lit and shot than any of its predecessors. The combat sequences were more tightly shot and edited, more “real” than anything we’d seen previously. Hell, he managed to make Frakes look half decent through the whole hand to hand combat sequence, which is no small undertaking. Consider the lighting on Patrick Stewart when he calls all hands to battlestations at the end of a sequence in the conference room? Or how the actors falling about on the bridge actually looked like they weren’t just bouncing around in their chairs for once?
Let’s face it, he did what he could with crap material, courtesy largely of Rick Berman, Brent Spiner, and John Logan. What amazes me, more than anything, is that the cast all signed on to the project — only now to complain about it (especially Spiner, who seems ready to complain about everything but the script that he and his buddy John Logan worked on). Mortgage payments must have been coming up.
Incidentally, when I was making reference to Nemesis’ predecessors, I was referring to the TNG films, not the films starring the original cast. I hold those far above their TNG counterparts — especially given they don’t spend their lives complaining about their films now!
Hi Smike. I pretty much agree with all you said and the description of the Enterprise-E as ‘an ugly sinister chariot of fire’ is superb, even though I also hated the design of the Enterprise-D. Curiously enough, I rather liked the Enterprise-C, being an interesting mix of the original, A, B and D!
As for Data, the point of the character was his journey to gain emotions and become human. Once he was given an emotion chip and we got to see them in use in First Contact, he really became an irrelevance, his journey at an end! Data’s final act should have been to sacrifice himself stopping the Borg.
I don’t want to see TNG Trek (by which I mean any Trek TV series post-1987) in the cinema again, but I agree a miniseries or straight-to-DVD sequence of films featuring them would be good to see. These guys belong on the TV screen, because that’s where they really shine!
That’s right Brent, it was the fans. It wasn’t the weak script, the crappy story, the poor acting in some parts of the movie, it was us. We just didn’t get the masterpiece you and Stewart were making.
It WAS the fans in that they collectively said “This movie looks like crap” and I can wait for DVD. LMAO!!!
But, again…a well written film with a good story could have done very well. Oh…and I just DON’T buy the crap some of the fans try to say about the release date.
Peeps…if the film was any good it would have done well. It was beaten by a J-lo movie….what more can one say? If the film had been good (like Insurrection) I would have seen it more than ONCE.
Like another poster here, I refuse to watch Insurrection or Nemesis again.
Ever.
And I am not losing a wink of sleep over it. LOL
These guys go to conventions, don’t they pick up some of what the fans think at these places?, or are the fans there so in love with Trek that they claim it was great just to please people like Spiner. He should spend five minutes on the internet and find out what we REALLY think.
#37 Your self-control is admirable… and highly logical. ;)
Nemesis failed *financially* because it was up against LOTR (Two Towers), which brings the same demographic–and other demographics were taken by couples going to “Maid in Manhattan” as a date movie.
I didn’t think Nemesis was an awful movie…I mean, The Final Frontier was way worse. It just could have been better, and would have been better without the huge edits of crucial scenes. Poor directing choice.
Here’s the thing about making things to “the fans”. There is no longer a single group of “Star Trek” fans. There are TOS fans. TNG fans. DS9 fans. VOY fans. ENT fans. You can’t please everyone, because most people are only fans of certain shows. What you can and *should* do is focus on making a good story (and no, I’m not talking about the continuity bull that Trekkies always bring up). And even when you do that, some people won’t like it. I read some people on here who said First Contact isn’t “Star Trek”. What the heck? It was the best movie next to WOK. Fantastic character moments, great humor, great adventure.
For heaven’s sake, stop nitpicking about continuity and what STAR TREK is. THAT is what prevents good storys from forming, cause writers feel their hands are tied by all of the “rules”.
The main problem with the TNG films besides FC, was that they didn’t take them beyond the TV format. They never felt like epics like the TOS crew films did.
Although the film failed at the boxoffice it would be interesting to find out how much it has made scince it hit DVD.
LLAP
TNG in the movies tried to shoehorn Picard/Data into Kirk/Spock., even to the point of making Picard an action hero, which he was never really comfortable doing on TV. Also, TNG went to movies not because of fan demand, the studio wanted it. Without Shatner to launch it, the first one might have gone down as well, though it was an OK show despite inconsistencies which have been thoroughly discussed here and elsewhere. I always thought support for TNG in movies was soft at best, it’s interesting that even when the #2 star says they lost the fans and with the fact that people didn’t go some still won’t concede this. Nemesis looked kind of thrifty; setwise things seemed truncated and the teamwork wasn’t shown; Picard was the whole show. The poster looked like it was for Hellraiser-Trek. Let’s face it; look at all TNG movie posters; see how small the words “Star Trek” are in comparison to the TOS movies; they knew what they were doing wasn’t quite trek as the public saw it, at least I think they did. If TNG had done more new age type stories in the movies instead of stuff lke Nemesis, they might have kept their core audience. That’s why many people like Insurrection, which was like a TNG episode. As to why they didn’t use Q, I can only guess it would have necessitated a big, expansive, and costly story.
Voyager and Enterprise licked balls.
I thought the fans weren’t that important? Ummmmmm… go figure.
Well he’s right in one aspect…the fan outcry for more dune buggy scenes has been deafening for 40 odd years….its well known that Chekov and Capt Terrell originally rode a dune buggy to Khans wreckage in STII. Ok sarcasm off.
Maybe before he congratulates himself too much on his bull about how ” the fans were done with us” and his insticts about Datas death were right on…maybe just maybe he should remember that after all his moaning for years about his aging and how it doesnt work within the Data character (contract negotiation anyone?) maybe someone should remind him that he wrote in the lamest safety net ever with the retardedly named B4, without just the inclusion of B4 alone (and with it the dune buggy scene of course) Nemesis would have already been a better film.
#15 – amen to the major continuity errors. Lor, who’s that?.. Sensor sweeps that now cover the entire galaxy.. etc.
But, the best sum up of this movie comes from my then 11-year old daughter whispering to me about 45 minutes in: “This is boring.”
I love Trek. I love TNG. I hate Stuart Baird. He phoned it in and boy did it show.
Since I haven’t read many of the above comments (I stopped halfway through #12), I apologize if what I am about to say has been said before. Even if it has, though, I think you’ll all live. After all, I’m sure most (if not all) of you have sat through “Spock’s Brain” or “Profit and Lace” at least once.
Anyways…
Nemesis failed due to the following reasons.
1.) Bad buzz. Early talk on the film was lukewarm, to say the least.
2.) Mediocre film. Let’s face it, the film should have been better. For one thing, it should have been more original and shouldn’t have tried to rehash plot elements from previous films. The plot was littered with holes, the characterizations were practically non-existent, continuity was shaky, and many of the story elements just did not belong in a Star Trek movie.
3.) Mixed reviews and poor word-of-mouth. Self-explanatory; people just didn’t like it, and they made sure other people knew that.
4.) Bad timing. Even those who did like it didn’t have much time to spread the word; within five days, The Two Towers hit theaters, so everybody lost interest in Nemesis.
5.) General moviegoers are idiots. Again, that’s self-explanatory; after all, Maid in Manhattan did top the box office. Most people wouldn’t know a good movie if it jumped up and bit ‘em in the ass.
And that’s my take on that. No, Nemesis wasn’t a great movie. But there are many other factors that contributed to the film’s demise; the fans not going to see the movie is only one of them.
Having said that, I have no idea what point I was trying to make, so just ignore this.
Bye. :-P
Also, what kind of Klingon shrieks, “Ugghh!” when a hand comes out of the ground?
Especially a Klingon raised by Russians?
#26 voiced some of my own thoughts about the storytelling, and brought my views into greater focus.
Scotty’s line in Generations about “phasing in and out of our space-time continuum” was a Data or Geordi line… even worse was Scotty’s bit about a “it may be possible” and a “resonance burst” or something (someone will remember the quote… I don’t have it exactly). Poor Jimmy Doohan (like Desmond Llewellyn in the later Bond films) obviously had these technobabbly lines in front of him, just out of view of the camera.
Written for the “real” Scotty, the line would have been something like, “What in the name o’hell?! They’re jumpin’ all over space and time. I dunna think the transporter beam can hold onto ‘em.” (We *did* get to see the “real” Scotty for several of Generations’ best moments, though, thankfully!) Even taking into consideration that the line was meant for Spock originally, it still seems out of place in the TOS era. Spock might have said, “Captain, space and time are being altered by the Nexus. We cannot beam the survivors aboard.” Not too jargony… like an episode of “Nova” on PBS. Why couldn’t “real” screenwriters realize this?
About the issue of storytelling itself:
Lately it’s been plain to me that TOS told stories without the gimmick of “Technobabble A creates dilemma; now Technobabble B will solve it.” There were many moments in TNG and Voyager (I’ve been watching it on Spike now) like this: “Captain! What if we modified the Widget to emit Fixatrons!” “Yes! That’s it! Fixatrons will solve our problem and we’ll win the day!” Incidentally, that was how the prologue of Generations worked, too.
Now, “All Good Things,” it seems to me, rather lovingly (and almost with tongue in cheek) used the Widget/Fixatron paradigm to solve the final puzzle of TV-era Picard. Perhaps AGT simply tied up that whole way of telling stories and “doing Trek,” and that’s why the later TNG films, in particular, fell flat.
Consider that Hitchcock used the device of the MacGuffin – the thing everyone is trying to get – to tell his stories. James Bond, Indiana Jones and Star Trek all work well when there’s an identifiable MacGuffin that the audience can buy into quickly and easily. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin). In Nemesis, they tried to make the MacGuffin the metagenic weapon (standing in for Genesis)… but did we ever really “feel” the pull of the weapon to tell the story? And, why did we need Shinzon – the Romulans themselves could have stood in for Khan, trying to disrupt unification by unleashing the weapon.
Now, if we *had* to have clones in a Picard/Data story, perhaps the MacGuffin could have been B4 (which might have even helped us like him better, or at least suspend disbelief that there is yet another Soong android out there). Remember the hyped-up promos from the TOS movie boxes and novelizations? For Nemesis, it could have been: “The forgotten twin of the galaxy’s only sentient android is discovered on a remote planet. Now Captain Picard’s own genetic clone seeks to destroy him in order to seize the secret of android technology and create a cyber-race that will replace humanity itself.” (That might seem a bit thick for Star Trek, but Khan himself was over the top!)
Picard and Data *both* could have discovered that they are their own worst nemeses – Picard contemplating his Jungian shadow before him in the person of Shinzon, and Data contemplating the implications of an entire race of cloned androids possessing his superhuman strength and intelligence (vs. the “safe” or “moral” creation of a subhuman B4 who can never be a threat), finally choosing to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to win the day.
Here endeth My Two Cents… thanks!
Mr. Spiner: The Fans were not done with TNG. The fans were not done with Trek for that matter. First Contact was a great movie. Insurrection was no better than an average episode with the story line not deserving the resources of a movie. Nemesis, was basically a retred of Insurrection. Fans had enough of lame story writing. I for one was someone who could have enjoyed a few more seasons on TNG. Sounds to me like you are looking to blame the fans for a crappy story.
Is it any wonder why a movie like “Star Trek Of Gods and Men” with next to nothing in budget money, with actors doing it for next to nothing in return are doing this? The passion for the franchise says it all. If you have seen the trailer, and I have. I have heard all sorts of comments, but all negative aside, it is being done mostly because of the passion for Star Trek. And Don’t get me wrong, the acting in the last 2 movies was pretty good. But the story lacked any real Trek passion.
If Trek XI bites, Paramount might as well stick a fork in it.
#67 said “Technobabble A creates dilemma; now Technobabble B will solve it.”
I think you’ve summed up the NextGen era perfectly in one sentence. Watching these remastered TOS episodes, I have been keenly aware of how many stories did not revolve around problems created by or solved by waves, particles, dimensions and pieces of hardware (regardless of how well rendered, designed or constructed those waves, particles, dimensions or pieces of hardware were).
I dont think that the whole of the TNG era can be painted with the technobabble brush…Voyager is the show that truly moved technobabble to a whole new level. DS9 probably had the least of it. And TNG somewhere in the middle
The great thing about TNG technobabble is that it at least paid a token nod of respect to real science. Heisenberg compensators, inertial dampeners, all that stuff was great for real fans of science fiction, and the show didn’t insult your intelligence.
By Voyager they were literally using “reverse the polarity” every week to solve whatever technical problem they had. And that episode where they used “space sonar” to defeat a vessel’s cloaking device? Terrible. The brain trust had left the building.
Here’s a great pictorial re-edit of NEMESIS (language NSFW, but I dare you not to laugh from at least one bit):
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html
And FWIW, “NEMESIS” was the only theater TREK that I did not actually see in the theater (I missed it but eventually bought the DVD, and then wished I had just netflix’d it).
So many missed opportunities in that film.
For me TNG toward its end was the beginning of the techno babble. It was subtle but for me it was still there but it grew a lot worse during Voyager’s run making technology that made no sense and it was the technology not the characters. Its like they fired their Science consultant and made up their own.
Granted their have been episodes of each incarnation that I have enjoyed but it just got bad over time.
With respect to Abramsand his writing team the sheer mention of “Yeah I’m a fan and Im writing this movie” does bring back some bad memories. Overall it just brings flashbacks to this *cough*.movie.
Next to Loughry’s work on Trek V and of course John Logan. Its somebody who has excellent writing credentials who comes into Star Trek and just comes in and makes a well…unsatisfying movie that was a waste of celluloid,.
Honestly I can be more meaner I just cant bring myself to describe it how bad, LOL
What the killer part was for a long time the Star Trek Films were being pushed out on a near regular basis. At least until FC. For me the studio was sitting on the last two films…We never got tired of it. They had no idea what to do with the monster that is Star Trek they created. I remember always hearing “When’s the next movie coming out?” And nothing came from them. Not even a pin drop. I thought for the longest time First contact was so successful so what was the problem of ordering another movie almost immediately? To me it took nearly forever for the last two and the cast wasn’t getting any younger. They could have done at least three instead of two. I dont know if it was Paramount’s foot dragging or Bermans utter laziness. At one point I thought it would have been a mixed cast of the shows. At that point which involved no time travel and would have involved members of a multi trek cast on some level on a epic scale. That I would have been happy with.
To be honest I’m still amazed thier is going to be another Star Trek film.
Some of the points people have already made. Points I agree with 100 percent. Whether it was timing because of Harry Potter and Two Towers, bad script, Picard/Data dominating the story yet again, Action hero Picard, etc. I dont think they catered to the fans at all. They created characters we dont know or even heard of at that point. So why should we care about B-4, Shinzon, The Remans? Donatra or any other character? And to be honest we didn’t.
What almost made me not bothering to see the movie at all was a interview with Rick Berman in the defunct Star Trek Communicator prior to the release to the context of ” If you loved Wrath of Khan you’ll love this movie.” I remember he made this comment and it always irked me. My problem already was I have already seen Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan… several times in fact… why should I bother seeing this movie? Whats so different?
Its not too hard to build a film on a social issue preferably current and just go with it. Trek has done this successfully before. the problem is when you recycle a idea it becomes stale. That is what has hurt Star Trek. The cabal of writers have Mad cow, Alzheimer’s or just just plain amnesia because they cant remember what they already did. Its really something when your audience is smarter than your writers.
The only thing I really liked out of Nemesis was the deleted scenes. Whether it would have made a difference is debateful. I could have dealt with the alternate ending then what they ended up with. After the wedding in the movie it just goes downhill from there.
Also from I learned about Star Trek Fans is we love our characters..their are heroes. Killing them off well to put it bluntly pisses us off….then it brings people thinking of using “the Spock” Plot character death escape hatch for the next movie so they can live again. Well in Hollywood their is no guarantee for another movie. Even if Brent Spiner didn’t want to do Data they left it open so he could play the retarded version of Data. that wasn’t even entertaining at all. They do mention their was other androids besides Data and Lore. But honestly did we care to find another?
Was Spiner joking about ‘Justice League of Star Trek?’ I often wonder, because that film would have been the death of all Trek! No sane person could really have considered that film . . . could they?
I think that just about all of the factors contributing to Nemesis’ failure have been mentioned: weak story, poor direction, uncompelling villain, consistency issues, the dune buggy, Data’s anti-climactic death, franchise issues vis a vis Stewart & Spiner domination, poor marketing by Paramount (though, let’s face it, with such a stinker as Nemesis, better marketting would only have achieved more people getting ripped off), and, most of all, Rick Berman’s shameful stewardship of the priceless jewel entrusted him by Gene Roddenberry.
As for my two cents, I’ll just rejoin as to some of the related comments mentioned.
The first season of TNG was kind of painful to watch. By Season 2, the show was very good, and on a steady ascent toward the greatness that fans acknowledge it having achieved. The series’ climax is debatable, but, I’d say, by Season 4, the series was at its apex, which would last throughout Season 6, with a slight drop-off in Season 7. (Though, episodes such as “Lessons,” in Season 6, were harbingers, in retrospect, of the slower, more melodramatic, soap-operatic style and pacing that would be the M.O. of DS9.)
One point regarding the TOS films vs. the TNG films:
Though the TOS cast did make, at least, one uncontested stinker in Star Trek V, even this film’s stench did not approach the malodorousness of Generations, which was only slightly worse than Nemesis. The Final Frontier, at least, had a compelling story, with character arcs being driven by Spock’s faith-healing half-brother, though it was all poorly realised by…umm…who directed that one, again?
But, who cared about the Shinzon/Picard relationship? Who even liked Shinzon as a character? It’s not as though, throughout the TNG series, there was some dark, disturbing side of Picard that lay just under the surface of his disciplined officer exterior, and, finally we got the chance to see it realised. The whole light/dark archetype of Picard/Shinzon was a contrived dead-end.
At any rate, and more importantly, the TOS films rebounded from V, and went out in a blaze of glory with The Undiscovered Country. (or, that’s what WOULD have happened, but for that bastard cross-over film)
The TNG films had one abyssmally bad entre – Generations; one all-around good film – First Contact; one light, enjoyable TV episode – Insurrection; and, one pathetic sayonara, which Mr. Spiner has laid at the feet of the adoring, loyal, patient fans – us.
A good director is essential, and we’re all fond of Nick Meyer. But, the genesis of a good film is its story. A good story attracts a good director, who, if the story is good enough, may even take a pay cut in order to be a part of it. A good director, then, will get good performances from his cast (say what you will about the TNG cast, we’ve all seen each member have his or her moment in at least one TNG episode, so it IS possible), and, there’s your good film, even if the budget is lower than a 40-year old franchise, with a loyal and devoted built-in audience, deserves.
So, as has already been said, Mr. Spiner does, indeed, need to look at the man in the mirror…as does Mr. Berman who’s really run Gene’s baby into the ground. How old is Mr. Berman, anyway? Any chance of another heir to the franchise any time soon? Sorry to end on such a morbid note, but I really do resent the way Mr. Berman has treated both the franchise and the fans.
As for the new Abrams film, I’m cautiously optimistic. And, as someone has already pointed out, Berman and all involved really do need to have a look online at forums such as this. Thanks.
#67 you just put all B&B produced shows in a nutshell. I do agree with Tony, TNG is middle-ground since B&B didn’t have much influence on it. DS9 was refresing because of how little it was used. And good lord Voyager and Ent are atrocious with the plot device you described.
and #26 I think you nailed a lot of great points.
#76 “Cautiously optimistic” pretty much sums up how I feel about the Abrams takeover.
OK, first I’ll comment on the technobable that’s already been talked about here. Just to say I’m pretty much in agreement in that it went nuts in Voyager. I liked Voyager b/c I liked the characters and their development. But watching these reruns on Spike I noticed that as soon as the technobable starts, I don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. I understood all the technobabble in previous Trek’s but theirs just went insane.
Now on to my feelings why Nemesis failed. Were we tired of TNG? No. We were cautious to start with. After Insurrection, I certainly was. Worf becoming comic relief and Data making boob jokes really weren’t doing it for me. The “comedy” in that movie felt forced and low-brow like the Star Wars prequels. The jokes just turned into cringe moments.
My main issue w/ Nemesis (and I still remember Berman being quoted numerous times as saying they’ve created the best villain since Khan) was that you never cared about the villain. Nor did I ever buy Picard caring that this guy who has his DNA is evil. I’m pretty sure if I had an identical twin who turned out to be evil (or let’s just say very different than me) I’d start going “oh my god, he’s me. Maybe I’m evil.”
B4 was kinda lame and a missed opportunity.
I never minded the Enterprise-E but I always felt it was too dark and busy. The interior corridors always looked like Jeffries tubes to me. They were so dark and busy that I always had this feeling of claustrophobia on the ship. It wasn’t sleek, bright and earth tones like the Enterprise -D.
I can’t believe no one has yet to mention the emergency escape transporter. Maybe I’m missing something but that little plot device always bugged me. How the heck is it supposed to work once the device itself is dematerialized? It was no bigger than a silver dollar while the shipboard transporter is huge.
On the TNG movies in general: I agree w/ most on here that making Picard and Data the center the movies when the entire crew were integral characters in the show, never felt right. And why the heck is Picard leading away teams? He never did that in the series.
Overall I didn’t hate Nemesis. It just seemed like a largely forgetable movie. Even with all the action and death of Data, it’s not a movie that anyone even remembers. I just wish they had given the TNG crew a better send off.
Didn’t this thread already happen?…. The bash Spiner thread. The bash Marina and Berman coming next? We did those already weeks ago.
Must be a time loop… oops..
technobabble
#76 Berman is no longer in charge of Star Trek. He quit about a year ago. That’s why Abrams took charge of Star Trek XI – the original Romulan War idea was thrown out because it was linked to Berman.
It’s quite amazing how many Star Trek fans out there don’t seem to know that Berman quit! You’d think they’d be jumping for joy, wouldn’t you?
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“…the shadow of new life.”
The Voyager technobabble got tiresome because it was so often used in lieu of real dramatic implications. It’s rather like a wild, state-of-the-art chase scene, in an action movie that hasn’t bothered to get the audience invested in its characters.
With Star Trek, we’ve always got a certain level of investment going in, but Voyager didn’t often bother to set up any dramatic consequences or implications, other than the obvious, i.e. death, to the characters’ predicaments.
If technobabble B is going to fix technobabble A, then there should be some dramatic implications as to why technobabble B gets thought of, i.e. what it means that a given character has thought it up; what are the consequences of technobabble B to the other members of the crew, aside from the obvious, i.e. that their lives are saved.
A couple of examples from TNG:
In Season 3, “The Enemy,” Jeordi is held prisoner by a Romulan down on a climatically turbulent planet. After having been at political/ideological odds throughout the episode, Jeordi and the Romulan work together in order to accomplish technobabble B, and save their lives.
In Season 7, “Descent, Part II,” an non-regular Ensign and a non-regular Lieutenant, are among the few crew members left aboard the Enterprise, now under the command of Dr. Crusher, who have to fend off a Borg attack, while the rest of the crew are held captive down on the planet by Lor and the temporarily-evil Data. Throughout the episode, the Lieutentant has been condescending to the Ensign, and, when, in defiance of the former, the latter thinks up technobabble B, in order to elude the attacking Borg ship, her pride is at stake, as well her life.
In Voyager, it was too often:
“We’re gonna bite it. Do technobabble B. Yay, it worked. We’re all saved.”
And, since technobabble B didn’t mean anything to the audience, and, there were no additional dramatic implications of it, the would-be climactic scene wound up being predictable and unfulfilling. And, the lack dramtic implications aside, the technobabble-climax formula was already in danger of being over-used by the end of TNG. What made it work on TNG, was that we were never really sure what exactly was going to come about from technobabble B, because Roddenberry & Co. kept show sufficiently fresh, thought-provoking and unpredictable.
Let’s be honest, even if Nemesis had been quite good, it would have been a box office failure. Anybody who didn’t watch TNG would not go see the movie, along with anybody that hadn’t cared about TNG in years. And that’s why I think XI is destined to be a commercial failure as well. The audience just isn’t there anymore.
To forumlate the posts I have read in this thread into one word, I would have to go with – Interesting!
Ok, I grew up on Trek. From TNG I enjoyed TOS (Later), DS9, VOY and ENT as well as the movies. To grab a scope of my direction, my fav movies would have to be Trek 2 and Trek 6, which is the general concensious of the general trek population.
The subject matter of Enterprise sucking depends on your personal taste. A lot liked it, a lot disliked it. A trek bashing war ensued yet again, arguing as to which trek was the best and which sucked the most. In all honesty, I am not that sad as to pick out inconistancies of every episode or time-travel episode because I just enjoy watching trek as a whole. I love characters like Picard (as well as the actor himself for whom I have a lot of respect for) as well as Mr. Spiner, who, in my opinion has shown a multitude of acting directions, not all related to Star Trek but also in his minor roles in other major films. They are experienced actors that have lived in their industry for such a long time. When they say it is enough of a character it can be the result of many decisions made to come to that point. To have a go at the actor then, in my opinion yet again, is just unjustified. I like them, I like all of them, even Mr. Shatner who made me laugh big time in Ms Congentiality (which to be fair to him, was a refreshing role that suited his now rather larger than life size).
Kirk and co, Picard and co, Archer and co as well as Sisko and Janeway and co have given a number of excellent and entertaining shows as well as a number of equaly bad shows. Thats the thing about playing about with a well established universe. Everyone expects Star Trek to move with the times while at the same time expecting it stays the same. Its a bit of a contradiction when it comes to the, usually over the top, expectations of the average trek fan.
Yes, money is a big issue when it comes to measuring the success of a movie or the viewership numbers of the related TV shows. A make or break of a show can be judged in a multitude of ways, but looking at Trek history in general, certainly as was the case with Enterprise, the show was never really given a chance to find its own way.
Trek in general always had a certain rule of thumb: The first 1-3 seasons would suck, then it would get better and better as the seasons and episodes progressed through time. Although a lot may or may not agree to this statement, I found it to be true with a lot of TV Shows. There are the occasional exceptions which seems to head in the other direction – A show starting off good and then just going down the drain due to a lack of original ideas, but lets be honest here: There are so many shows out there and so many shows that have been done and at the end of the day, there is no such thing as an original idea because in some form or another it has been done before. There is only an attempted original take on an already recycled idea.
That is what I think Mr. Abrams is doing. He is taking what he has learnt to be a succesfull show package (LOST for instance) and is attempting to translate it to the Trek world. What could that mean? What could we expect?
Those are the driving things in Trek. The ability to ask questions and to have them answered over time either through a writer or through confirmed rumours and generall flaming in some abstract deep corner of the Internet. Trek has helped us expand our ability to ask questions and also provided some hints to answers. LOST explores the personal side of a character and expands on what we already know in our own lives: Character traits are the accumulation of his or her past experience. There is always a wave of mystery involved in telling that particular characters story but at the end of the day it keeps us glued to the TV set as we venture out asking ourselves where this will head.
Trek 11, if I manage to grasp the personality of Abrams correctly will be a mix of both awe from what we already know and an additional character level for our known and beloved characters. In short it will be a new direction.
What is to come of it? What can we expect. I for one can wait. Neither subjectivness nor pre-expectations will dwindle the arrival of this film for me. Important is that they are making a new one.
So wether or not you are obsessed with keeping a timeline (which to be fair to the real world and “realism” is impossible with so many creative minds behind the francise already) or if you are just a casual watcher of films, all I can do is appeal to common sense: Dont bash the actors because they followed the script, dont bash the story because the authors did not watch every episode, read every book, every short story based on Star Trek and certainly dont think something to be dead before it is not anounced to be.
In the words of one we all know very well, for Trek 11 and new directions “make it so!”
Another stupid aspect of Nemesis was the “mind rape”
of Troi, this was done during the series by a fruity alien
wearing cheese cloth. Must of been a Berman fantasy.
It’s great to see the ongoing fan interest in Star Trek illustrated by this web site.
As for Brent Spiner’s comments: The TNG movies all pretty much sucked.
I’m a Star Trek fan, always will be. I’m “desperate” for new good Star Trek, preferably a TV series (though a movie would also be nice). I watch reruns every day. But if you want sales or viewers, give us some good new Star Trek! Although I admit I’ll watch pretty much anything new with the Star Trek label, in the hope that it will be decent.
I find it truly sad that there is no current Star Trek series on TV (it seems to me that Star Trek is the most important fictional series ever on TV, and that there should always be at least one ongoing Star Trek series active). It’s pathetic that so much televised crap can draw a larger viewer share than Star Trek.
Star Trek had its shortcomings. Some of the dialog in TNG was laughable. However, it presented a vision and a hope for the future.
By the way, I really disliked the killing off of Data. Sure, Brent Spiner could no longer portray an ageless being. However, whatever you may say, to me Star Trek is “real” in some sense. Who knows, maybe there is some truth to Heinlein’s “the world as myth” concept, and the Star Trek characters really do exist in some manner. In any event, the idea of a good person (Data qualifies) living “forever” (or at least many, many millenia) in full health has a lot of appeal. Thinking about Data living on, and keeping alive the memory of his TNG friends was somehow appealing.
Perhaps something similar has already been mentioned, but it seems as if the people involved in producing “All Good Things” were tapped to make a movie, the results would be good.
Star Trek Forever!
Hmm, seems to me like Spiner is the only one making sense here.
You guys are saying that Nemesis was horrible and thats why no one went to see it. Last I checked, you had to see it to realize it was horrible. Look at the people here, everyone has seen it and most of us saw it in theaters.
The problem was, not enough people were interested enough to see it from the get-go because no one cares about star trek anymore, period. The fans saw the movie, its just that it was the fans and ONLY the fans. No casual viewers.
And why weren’t people interested enough to see Nemesis in the first pace?
Insurrection. That’s the movie that really killed interest in TNG as a franchise. Nemesis may not have been the best movie, but at least it was a movie. Insurrection was a so-so TV episode you had to pay eight bucks to see. Of course it was going to sour casual fans to Trek.
yup. Combine that with bad reviews and poor advertising you’ve got an empty theater.
for the record, I never said Nemesis sucked. I just found it forgettable.
Trek fans were less inclined to see Nemesis after Insurrection. And, when word-of-mouth, from those who DID go see Nemesis opening day, came back negative, Trek fans and, people in general, were even less inclined to go see it. I waited for it on DVD, myself. And, even then, I was expecting a stinker, as I’d been forewarned.
Making Nemesis “for the fans” didn’t necessarily preclude a general audience from seeing the film. If it had been a fantastic film, word would have gotten around that it was a must-see. An outstanding Trek film might even have the effect of drawing more people to the franchise.
If the argument is regarding the film’s opening, then the most contributing factor to the low turnout would seem to be the fans’ disappointment at the previous Trek film(s). I suppose it’s possible that some non-fans read comments about the film, prior to its opening – “This film is for the fans” – and decided against going, based on the conclusion that they wouldn’t be able to follow the story; and, hence Spiner is a bit sour-grapes for having put all of his marbles on the fans, and then been let down by their anemic turnout.
But, the fact remains that making a film “for the fans” does not absolve them of having to make a good film, for crying out loud. And, I resent the attitude that, since they made the film for the fans, we should like whatever garbage they offer us.
If they’d made a good film, it would’ve done well. Period. And, this is more than can be said of most films, because they simply don’t have the built-in, loyal audience that a Trek film will have. What happened, is that Berman & Co. took us for granted. It’s obvious. And, Spiner’s comments suggest that he felt somewhat absolved from having to make a good film, by virtue of Trek’s loyal following.
“We made it for the fans, and they didn’t come.” Yeah, well, even the fans have a minimum standard of quality. And, the premise that the fans should have an unconditional appreciation for anything Trek, is the core of the rotting Trek. I’m cautiously optimistic and hopeful that Berman’s ouster will lead to a renaissance of the once great franchise. It’s certainly the first step in that direction. And, JJ Abrams has done respectable work. I’ve been impressed by some of his Alias episodes.
91 – “If it had been a fantastic film, word would have gotten around that it was a must-see. An outstanding Trek film might even have the effect of drawing more people to the franchise.”
You’d hope something like that would happen, but this is where I think opening the film up between Harry Potter and The Two Towers killed Nemesis’s chances of ever bouncing back, even with fantastic word of mouth.
I mean, if you’re the casual movie viewer, which would you rather see? Potter and LOTR, two fantastic franchises with a great track record of delivering quality entertainment, or a movie from a franchise that’s known to hit-and-miss (and its most recent product was a definite miss).
Maybe great word of mouth would have helped Nemesis in DVD sales and rentals, but I think it was doomed either way, at the box office. Yeah, maybe if it had been fantastic, a few more fans would have seen it in theaters, but it just wouldn’t have been enough to overcome the “stinker” label affixed to Nemesis.
My advice to TNG actors…Don’t hold out for another movie.there’s not a audience to justify it.If you think so highly of the show ,start your own letter writing campaign like TOS did.I think TNG does have major computer geek appeal.that’s who you have to aim your own letter writting campaign towards(get your own TNG website for this purpose).then maybe they’ll let you do a TV movie or two.You won’t have the big payday from a movie,but you’ll get the ball rolling.You don’t need Stewart for this either(too much $ anyway).Let Riker finally fufill his character’s purpose
I don’t think the fans were done with Trek: Trek was done with its fans.
The movie bombed because it sucked, not because it was strictly for the fans.
Just goes to show just how outta touch Hollywood folk are.
I agree that a better movie wouldve done better, at the very least among movie buffs who sit glued to critic sites. However, I dont know what makes yall think that there are enough fans to make a movie successful from the beginning. Star Trek is no longer an acceptable movie choice for the common American, movie buffs were seeing other things like lotr, and all that was left were trekkies(maybe a few stayed home because of bad reviews or bad advertising like me, but i think most went or else things wouldve been much worse than nly making half of production value.)
An outstanding Trek film would lure a general audience, at the very lease, to DVD rentals, and plausibly to the theater.
And, the Trek fan audience may still be insufficient, on its own, to support a film, but, keep in mind that, for a good Trek film, most of us will see it twice for sure, and some will see it even more times.
Simply put, it should have been Spock on that Romulan ship at the end offering to help. Spock should have saved the day and made everyone stand and cheer. That’s what the movie was missing. Something unexpected and wonderful and FUN.
Spock on the ship would have been very cool and unexpected!
Right on, Dennis! Wouldn’t that have been amazing . . . I have to confess that I’d this futile hope that Spock would appear at the end as a huge surprise . . . sadly, no such luck. Yeah, a FUN movie, what a concept!
This latest rant by Spiner is sickening. I am so tired of the TNG actors and producers tellling us how WE let THEM down. Nemesis had a lame story, pure and simple. True, it has some great moments, but overall it’s dark & depressing. They had a golden opportunity to finally do a cool Romulan movie, and instead they made a bizarre left turn into Shinzon and the boring Remans. Instead of great character moments, it was another Picard & Data action-fest, and the rest of the crew as comedy relief (especally Worf, my favorite Klingon — what a joke). Where was the ensemble that I loved for so many years?
And Data is killed for no real reason, other than Spiner wanted him dead. The B-4 character was the worst retread of all … I tried to watch the movie recently, and I can’t stand any scene with him. How I kept wishing in the theater they would reveal that B-4 was killed and not Data.
For the life of me, I can’t understand why they never did a Q movie. THAT would have been fun.
Nemesis was the first and only Star Trek movie ever that made me fall asleep during first watching.
Actually, it was first and only science fiction movie ever that made me fall asleep during first watching. Not even Men in Black II managed to anaesthetize me, and God knows they tried hard.
I guess it says something about Nemesis. :-)
Nemesis was a poor remake of The Wrath of Khan. Why in God’s name didn’t they bring Q into the films!! Spiners comments reveal how burned out he was at making more films, but to say the franchise was over was wrong. Even at the Premier of Nemesis he couldn’t believe they were making another film. If they had better writers and a more positive attitude the last two films could of been better and Star Trek wouldn’t have faultered out.
The main problem with Nemesis was Picard’s clone. They should have simply cast Patrick Stewart in a dual role and made minor modifications to the storyline to accomodate it. The man is certainly talented enough to have pulled it off!
At the very least, Shinzon should have looked at the metal spike running through his body and lauged (as young Picard had when run through by a Naussican’s knife). At least then there would have been some connection between Picard and Shinzon.
“At the very least, Shinzon should have looked at the metal spike running through his body and lauged (as young Picard had when run through by a Naussican’s knife)”
That would’ve been a great idea…too great, for that shitty movie, in fact.
I thought Nemesis was fantastic. Dark, intriguing drama and a fantastic villain. Great new ships and a great story. (albeit a bit Picard-heavy) Nemesis hardly deserves all the harsh things said about it. Insurrection and Trek 5 were the ones I found to be crappy. I really thought Nemesis came back strong, but it seems, as always, Im in the minority. Oh well, the masses are asses amywayz.
Mike Reed