Spiner On Nemesis Failure: The fans were done with us

I believe Nemesis failed because they tried to hard to be something they are not. They wanted to be Star Trek II, but found out the hard way they couldn’t.

The plot was weak, the characterizations were weak, and the director couldn’t care less. He got his money.

I had no problem with them killing off Data, because the actor felt like he was getting too old to play a character who doesn’t age. But, don’t kill him off, then reintroduce a lesser evolved character, being played no less by the same actor. What was the point?

Also, reintroduce Wesley Crusher, but cut out all his scenes? What was the point?

And, that is why I think the fans finally said, “Fuck this shit!” and didn’t support this last movie for the TNG crew.

WHAT WAS THE POINT?

#2 you described all the TNG movies perfectly in your Nemesis rant. I don’t know why the fans think only Nemesis sucked.

#3 Manny Cotto is really nothing but a panderer who thought he could save a show by inserting all the TOS references he could into each episode. What he didn’t do is improve the writing, the dull characters, or the Vulcan girl’s pontoon lips.

I think he also forgot the fact that Nemesis(which I liked BTW) was released one week prior to The Two Towers. How do you expect to compete against a big movie like that???? That is the biggest reason why it failed.

I think the TNG cast did great work, the preoblem was what they were given to work with. When it comes down to it, TNG only had a few good seasons and one good movie, which was FC.

Actually the last film wasn’t half bad and thats part of the problem. It seems that they stopped in development (or drafts) of the story and had they just taken more time – put more thought into it – then it could have been good.
After all….how many of you fans watched Nemesis and said What – Why?
The story was often a direct contradiction to what was in the series and prior films. Remember the part with Picard showing him as being bald at Starfleet Academy? How warped was that? And the lack of development of the Romulans really was awful. The story was too big and handled too lightly.
# 1 was right: The fans aren’t tired of Star Trek but just tired of traveling down a path that needs to be resurfaced because it has too many curves and bumps and thats not what Star Trek should be about in order to tell a good story….now is it? Character and story development MUST go hand in hand or this story will fall flat and Star Trek will be a memory forever lost.

In all my life I’d only seen Nemesis and Insurrection ONCE.

Normally I’ll see a Trek flick at least once in the theater and then a couple dozen times on video.

Starting with ‘Insurrection’ I skipped the theater — and didn’t shed a tear once I’d finally gotten to see it.

Same went for Nemesis.

However, I decided recently to go back and give Nemesis another shot with an open mind. Seeing it a second time, earlier this past year, was interesting. I actually ended up enjoying it. Yes, I rolled my eyes at the Argo and Picard’s hair situation in the Academy photo, and the silly dramatic lighting on Troy’s face during the psychic head-game bit during the ending, but overall I could definitely appreciate what they were TRYING to do, and it turned out to be a far better flick than my jaded memories had led me to remember. The music was great, too, especially in that opening shot while descending onto Romulus.

I had a similar reaction to Generations — I’d always considered that a weak entry, too, but I watched that again the same night as Nemesis and found things to respect about that as well.

I don’t have much hope for Insurrection, but I’ll give that a shot again at some point. I can still see that joystick rising up on the bridge in my minds eye, though, and I think if I see that again I’ll just come apart laughing. :)
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Anyways, ripping on Coto and calling him a ‘panderer’? Jesus man, the show was supposed to be *about* the beginnings of the Federation.

They spent 2 years jerking off Voyager-style, and another year making a limp effort (though I’d like to go back and give them a second shot, like I did with the flicks above). They finally get some stories that are actually relevant to Star Trek history and that’s *not okay*?

If the stories were weak name dropping sessions I would agree, but that fourth season, once they wrapped up the cliffhanger ep, was mostly quite STRONG and actually made me a regular viewer right until the end.

Given how absolutely bored I was with the Trek franchise thanks to Voyager and (at the time) the flicks, that’s a powerful testament.

Nemesis failed because it was BAAAAAAAD. Stop blaming the fans, Brent… fans can take pretty much anything, but this was simply too much. The sh*t did finally hit the fans, so to say. :-)

I mean, like… VAMPIRES (of the future!)? Dune buggy (of the future!)? The Medusa beam? Vast darkened factory-like coridors, hidden somewhere inside 24th-century starship? One more (never mentioned) Soong android, in exclusive 6-pieces puzzle design?What the hell were you thinking? ;-)

Nemesis was bad because cast and crew really didn’t give a damn. Berman and Braga had screwed the franchise up horribly. The Picard and Data routine was getting old. Stewart had a new franchise in X-Men, so he just wanted to drive dune buggies. Frakes, who had done passable work as director previously, was passed over for Stuart Baird. Baird, who may have been a good editor on Superman, is a lackluster director who had no knowledge or concern for Star Trek, and it showed. The plot was a inconsistent mishmash. The death of Data was pointless. The only good thing was the Riker/Troi marriage: and they could have done that better.
I am not holding out hope for Abrams’ Star Trek: a redo will have to adhere to continuity VERY closely, or do the REIMAGINING bit. It worked with Galactica, but Galactica is not Star Trek. New BG did not try to fit into the original BG continuity, which ST 11 appears to be trying to do with Star Trek. If they reimagine it, it will come off like Enterprise: it won’t be Star Trek. We will start to get the fracturing and anything goes situations like “Ultimate This” and “All-Star That” in the comics.
I have said, in other places, that Star Trek is dead. Star Trek is not dead: it is alive right now with Star Trek Remastered: they are are doing good work on that. And ultimately, Star Trek is alive with the fans.
Maybe Abrams can do good in spite of what I think: it would be great to be proven wrong. I hope he doesn’t lost along the way.

“The fans were done with us….We worked on the story with the intention of making it for the fans.”
With the immortal words of Alfre Woodard as Lily in FC: BULLSHIT!

I am (still) a fan and I (still) want to see more TNG (and DS9 and VOY)! I like to believe that every TNG or trek fan likes to watch old reruns EVERYDAY (not just me ;) )! I can only imagine how many TNG (and DS9 and VOY) DVD sets are now still being sold everyday! The idea that the fans could be done with anything the love and support is crazy.
If us fans would be done we wouldn’t be criticizing! We want it and we want it good! When I first saw the movie I was more puzzled from cut to cut, saying What – Why? ALL THE TIME! When it was over I forgot what the story was all about in a week.
Actually I am very suprised that the Nemesis staff was SO out of contact with the fans. I find these remarks offensive! They made almost the direct opposite of a movie for the fans.

No Mr. Spiner… the message from the fans was not “We’re done with you”. The message was “we’re done with bad writing”, “we’re done with Paramount’s horrible marketing and release schedule” and “we’re done with B&B”. If anything, I think, in 2002 atleast, fans were willing to give TNG another chance (and I think even today, a lot of fans want to see that “closure” to the 24th Century storyline… I’m content with moving on and believe the “future” of the Star Trek franchise is in it’s “past”, back in it’s roots with solid story telling about Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the NCC-1701). So, Brent, get off your high horse and realize that you guys made a turd, and that the fan disdain has nothing to with TNG as a whole being old, but with worn out storytelling loosing out.

Is it just me or he is very pompous and self absorbed? Just like Marina (side-bar; does anyone still frequent Trekweb? If you don’t, you missed some very funny message threads that started with “Marina Sirtis is Pissed at Trek Web”, to be followed by “Grace Lee Whitney is pissed at…” where someone suggested that Grace Lee Whitney was mad because she was the first underused sex pot character in Star Trek, long before Marina. And then the many imitations… XYZ is pissed at Trekweb, Trekweb is pissed at XYZ and my favorite, “Trekweb is pissed at you”. LOL). Sorry Brent et al… realize that gravy train has ran out of steam? Go back to concocting fan boy wet dreams then… maybe after XI is successful, Paramount will pick up on your original idea for XI and produce it as XII… we can have all the captains to team up against the Borg/Romulan/Kazon/Sphere Builder/Dominion alliance, or whatever the hell wacky idea you had… yeah, that’s good story telling (uh… sarcasm, if you hadn’t caught that yet!)

Time to join the band wagon. Nemesis failed because it took the old line that you can pump out any old rubbish and Trek fans will go and see it. Well they were wrong, previous postings have already run down the problems with the film. The point is, if you want to make a film and direct it at existing fans then don’t screw around with established history.
On the other hand if your aiming at attracting a new audience, as XI reports to be doing then background detail is of far less importance. A new audience is far more interested in a good story, with characters that mess well together. And who knows if it is done well enough maybe some existing fans will like the movie as well.
LLAP

“Nemesis” was 4 years after “Resurrection” which was also a bad story. They waited too long. I thought “First Contact” was the best of the bunch of TNG movies. I don’t see how “Nemesis” was for the fans– the wedding scene was unsatisfactory — it had Whoopi, Wesley had no lines (maybe that was good). The story did not conclude anything — and Data didn’t die just like Spock didn’t, not very original. We didn’t need one more movie that saved the Earth or the Federation

The TNG movies got off to a bad start and never really got going. The TOS films managed to create interesting stories ***based on*** TOS, rather than being TOS on the big screen.

Between TOS and TMP and between TMP and TWOK, the design aesthetic of Trek changed, the style of storytelling changed. Everything altered, because of the number of years that had passed between TOS and TMP. Issues such as the aging of the major characters had to be discussed and the designs of the ships and uniforms inevitably had to alter.

TNG, though, first appeared in a rushed-out hybrid film using TV costumes and sets, along with recycled footage from previous films (nothing new in that, but it was rather obvious here!) If ever there was a case of alienating the Star Trek fans, Generations was it! Scotty and Chekov turn up talking a bit like Spock and McCoy, then spouting off dialogue like ‘phasing in and out of the space-time continuum’ which wasn’t the sort of thing you’d ever hear in TOS and its films and calling Jim ‘Captain!’

Then the rest of the film comes over as a cheap greatest hits collection of warmed up leftovers from TNG and TOS. There was nothing new in the film, it took Star Trek in general precisely nowhere and was a slap in the face to fans of TNG and particularly fans of TOS.

First Contact worked in the cinema because it wasn’t a Star Trek film: it was ‘Die Hard meets Night of the Living Dead on the Enterprise!’ Although time travel had been done to death in Trek by then (you’ve got a 23rd/24th century-set series that can go pretty anywhere in the galaxy and you have to keep travelling back in time? That says to me that there’s something wrong with your series’ setting!) it was fun.

Insurrection was more of TNG episode pastiche than a movie. I enjoyed it in switch-off-brain kind of way, as the vanilla-drama that TNG mostly tended to present, but who would have cared, had it been a direct-to-DVD presentation?!)

And Nemesis was just a disaster from start to finish. I suspect fans were fed up of TNG-era Trek by then. It wasn’t entirely the TNG cast’s fault, but TNG’s follow-ups (including Enterprise) had mostly failed to differentiate themselves sufficiently from TNG, even to the point of their style of dialogue and plotting not changing since the early 1990s.

TNG-era Trek and Enterprise had got into a rut and the creativity had long gone. People just weren’t that bothered to go to see it. The fact the film looked like it had been hacked to shreds by a pair of rusty scissors in the edit suite didn’t do it any favours either!

I’ve said before that TNG became a very solid TV show, built around an ensemble cast, but ensemble cast TV dramas just don’t translate well to movies. That’s ***not*** a bad thing, just an inevitability. TOS had the advantage of having years between the show and its movies and a smaller main cast with a solid supporting cast, so could work in the cinema.

So Spiner’s right about people being done with TNG: it had been done to death on TV. But there was deeper malaise in Trek, for which Spiner was partly responsible. Trek had locked itself in a time bubble, telling early-1990s-style stories spouting 1980s and 1990s philosophy when TV and film had changed. Trek was still living in the era of Baywatch, 90210 and Quantum Leap, when viewers had seen The X Files, Buffy, Babylon 5, Stargate, Angel, Alias, Lost and other shows move on-screen drama ever forwards.

For Abrams’ Trek to succeed, he needs to take the TOS characters and ***translate*** them and their universe into a 21st century drama. I’m sure he can do it and, frankly, as long as people aren’t sitting in the cinema with a torch and a heavily-annotated Star Trek Chronology on their laps, they should be able to come away from the new film happy bunnies.

Marina Sirtis said that this film was being aimed at Lost viewers and their ilk,as if it was a negative. These are the programmes viewers are watching right now. These are the very people the film needs to aim at.

Exciting times are ahead!

I think the tv series (TNG) also had more time to find its ‘legs’ on the small screen, given the opportunity to present a weekly show over 7 years. With features, you’re lucky to get one film every 2 – 4 years, which is far too much time to be finding your way… The tv series didn’t translate well into features. There are many theories as to why, and most of those theories are all probably a little bit true. In the end, people do understand the difference between tv and the big screen, and therefore expect more on the big screen. You can’t just drag-and-drop a tv show onto the big screen… This is something the TOS cast and producers understood. Yes, TMP may not have been the best TOS film, but if you compare that film with one of the TOS episodes, you can see the difference in the scope of the film, and the expansion of their vision. And I am not merely talking about the appearance or the effects…
I think ST films must have a kind of “greatest adventure of all-time” premise right from the beginning, which then (hopefully) turns out to make a great film. I think this is where FC got on the right wagon, and came closer to giving us a “great adventure”, whereas INS and NEM were
“too-small adventures”, and GEN was just despicable for killing off Kirk.

Nemesis sucked donkey balls. Thats why it had a low gross at the box office.

Everyone says the bad story killed Nemesis,but I have to agree with Spiner. This movie tanked on opening day and went south from there.. It was beat by J-lo for crying out loud. People usually don’t develop an opinion before they’ve even seen the film, sure, they’ll bitch and moan about how they wasted their money afterward….but initially, they have to plunk down that hard earned money first. It was the sheer lack of bodies in seats that made the film open so poorly…not the bad story. Spiner was essentially right, most of the fans and especially the general public was done with Trek…in that incarnation anyway.

Heavy sigh~~

……… perhaps its just that maybe we grow bored of TNG cast, and their desprate sour grapes and jealousness after their turkey wannabe Trek Movies that they did after their tv show.

So in the words of Capt Kirk/Denny Crane/Shatner…”.. get a life!”… Spiner.

…”Sounds like somebody woke up on the wrong side of the rock..” Taken From the latest Gieco commercial….lol

I had hoped that they would have adapted Diane Duane’s “Dark Mirror” for the tenth ST movie. That would have kicked. BUTT. Instead, we got Star Trek: The Next Generation’s Wrath of Shitzon-you.

He can’t be serious: NEMESIS is so far removed from the fans. The fact that Lore is never mentioned when they discover another Soong android is an attempt to not confuse the general public. The frivolous action nature of the film was also an attempt to “bridge the gap” as he puts it, not cater to TREK fans who want intelligent, socio-allegorical drama. NEMESIS is exactly the opposite of what he’s trying to paint it as, both in intent and execution, and for that reason I believe Spiner’s bitter and trying to reverse-psych us all.

Oh…and Brent (fellow Houstonian)…

How can you say Nemesis was for the fans? By having that wedding scene? Whoopedeedooo!!! Here’s how I would have made it for the fans:

1.) Would have followed up on the cliffhanger from the first season episode Conspiracy (with the little bug aliens). Or at the very least used another villain from TNG — what about Commander Tomalok? That damned PICARD CLONE was a BORING character. Nobody CARED! We had no vested interest and the character wasn’t interesting enough to generate an interest. LOL That’s the big reason why Nemesis sucked.

2.) Would have made the film a COMPLETE ensemble piece…focusing on the strengths of each of the characters….kind of like the way The Undiscovered Country did or Star Trek III did (for example). Give all the characters an INTEGRAL part in the plot and jeopardy. I didn’t get this from Nemesis.

3.) Would have cut Jerry Goldsmith loose with regard to the musical score. I mean, damn….you KNOW it’s bad when Goldsmith just turns in routine performance. HELL! Even Supergirl had a better musical score. But, then I guess Berman made Goldsmith turn in another fine sonic wallpaper score….UGH!! IDIOT!!!! Sadly, since Goldsmith is no longer with us (may he rest in peace) that lame ass score will be his final Trek score. Dammit!

4.) Sure…kill Data…but at LEAST plant the seeds for it early in the movie…and do it with some real sense of dramatic jeopardy. That was one of the most forgettable cinematic “deaths” I have ever seen. We could have had a scene with him viewing Tasha’s hologram towards the beginning of the film…and a conversation about “what is death?” or something that would bookend the death scene at the end. To tie the villain in…the alien bugs…would people taken over by them truly be “alive” in the way they were? Subtext! Ever hear of that?! See…there ARE ways to make a great TNG film.

I am just saying if the film was to be about Data’s death…and not just tacked on as it was…the story and characterizations should SUPPORT THAT.

GAH!!!!

Anyway, just a few suggestions that might have made all the difference in the world with regard to box office.

TTM

IIRC, many years ago, David Gerrold was asked how many films the Trek movie series could last out! His reply was ‘probably one too many!’

In the case of TNG, they made four too many. ‘All Good Things . . . was a great finale to TNG. Had TNG finished then and not been incompetently dumped into a different medium, it would be fondly remembered. The TNG movies probably ***wrecked*** most people’s perception of TNG in general.

Spiner, who I think is a great actor, is displaying sour grapes here. He could have done himself a favor if he had either a) not commented on Nemesis at all, or b) if he must commment, just say they screwed up. It was, after all, a bad movie. Everyone knows that.

I agree that Nemesis tried to be ST II. One night I got drunk and watched it (it wasn’t quite as bad drunk), and also noticed in another run-thru, that it is also trying to be ST VI. Peace with the Romulans, etc.

If they had the chance (which I doubt will ever happen) they could even try to be ST III, by doing a “Search For Data” where they download Data’s marbles into the brother droid…

It was just lame! I thought the Romulans on the big screen Cool!
The Senate look look like a Town Hall not the seat of the Mighty Romulan Star Empire. A Coup and only Two Warbirds? The Remans Vampires?
How do they build and fly those ships with manicures like that?
The earth about to be wiped out and Where was the Federation Fleet?
On a matt chart! Would have been nice to see the USS Titan.
They had an opportunity with a Romulan Story, Unification as a back drop and they blew it. See the Argo, see the Argo Go. An off road race.,Please!

Despite its lackluster nature I went to see this movie FIVE times in cinema. I was hoping to support the franchise and find some closure to the TNG era. Up to NEM I was far from being done with the NG era. After INS I wanted them to continue or at least say goodbye in a decent way.

But what did we get? Another Picard 007 saving the galaxy from just another superweapon, this time crashing his ship into an alien predator and driving around in ridiculous space cars.
They sacrificed Data, the key character of NG, for nothing and completely neglected once again all other major characters.

First Contact was the only great NG movie. It had adventure, thrill AND a lot to do for all seven characters. Even though it devolved Picard and others into aggressive gunfighters it captured lots of eternal Trek moments i.e. the Phoenix, First Contact itself etc…It was fun without being ridiculous at any time. And it had a superb score (as had Generations but none of the later movies)…

The TNG series was intelligent utopian entertainment about an era of diplomacy and peace…no real evil villains, no big showdowns, all just shades of grey…
The TNG movies gaves us relentless, good vs. evil 007 action in space, turning the once so thoughtful Picard into an action hero worse than Bond, Schwarzenegger and Stallone combined…They managed to sacrifice Kirk and Data for nothing, destroyed the beautiful NCC-1701-D to replace her with an ugly sinister chariot of fire.

While I kinda enjoyed the space fights in INS and NEM they should have been part of bigger, far more epic stories. While I’m looking forward for Abrams’ take on the early TOS-era, I really hope for another fitting swan song for TNG…made directly on DVD without a big budget to blow up things, without another arch enemy nobody cares about but full of exploration, emotional satisfaction and true closure…
Bring back Ira Behr or Manny Coto to wrap up what B&B left behind in shreds…same goes for ENTERPRISE and even VOYAGER…

Give them all back some purpose…

I’m kind of sick of the cast and many fans blaming the mess that was Nemesis on Stuart Baird. So what if he reportedly thought that Geordi was meant to be an alien, or if he mispronounced someone’s name. In the end, the director’s job is to pull the film together and present the story in the best possible fashion. From my perspective, in terms of the visuals, style and performances he elicited from his cast, I think he did a good job. No, he’s no David Fincher or Steven Spielberg or James Cameron, but he did well with the material he was presented. Frankly, the cut scenes (as presented on the DVDs) add very little. The script and story were crap, pure and simple.

I maintain that from a visual perspective he did a good job, better than Frakes would have done. The film looked a hell of a lot more professional in the manner it was lit and shot than any of its predecessors. The combat sequences were more tightly shot and edited, more “real” than anything we’d seen previously. Hell, he managed to make Frakes look half decent through the whole hand to hand combat sequence, which is no small undertaking. Consider the lighting on Patrick Stewart when he calls all hands to battlestations at the end of a sequence in the conference room? Or how the actors falling about on the bridge actually looked like they weren’t just bouncing around in their chairs for once?

Let’s face it, he did what he could with crap material, courtesy largely of Rick Berman, Brent Spiner, and John Logan. What amazes me, more than anything, is that the cast all signed on to the project — only now to complain about it (especially Spiner, who seems ready to complain about everything but the script that he and his buddy John Logan worked on). Mortgage payments must have been coming up.