Burton and Nichols Compare Baird And Abrams March 3, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Abrams, Feature Films (TMP-NEM), Star Trek (2009 film), TNG, TOS , trackback
The last director to go to the final frontier was Stuart Baird for Star Trek Nemesis. Baird (who is an Oscar nominated editor) only got the Trek gig as payback for help he provided re-cutting Paramount’s M:I:II and Tomb Raider movies. After Nemesis bombed, the TNG cast have made no secret about how they feel about their final director. The latest example is in a new SciFi Pulse interview with LeVar Burton and TOS star Nichelle Nichols.
Burton noted that Baird "knew nothing" about Star Trek, and when asked if Paramount made the right call hiring him, the normally polite Burton said:
Well, I probably would have hired a different director. As a matter of fact am sure I would have.
Nichelle Nichols talked about her feeling on Trek’s new director, JJ Abrams, saying:
I have a greater deal of respect for him that, instead of going ahead and recasting after having initially got the green light from Paramount, which he could have done, he instead asked to meet separately and equally with all the original cast members. He didn’t make a big deal about it. I mean, he called one, he called the others and asked our agents if he could talk to us, and I went on and had lunch with him. We talked about it and he wanted to know my opinion.
…at which point Burton interjected
Just the sort of things Stuart Baird didn’t do
Nichols also talked about her role on the indie Trek mini-series "Of Gods and Men" and Burton discussed his most recent directorial work on the comedy "Reach for Me" in which he also acts alongside his "Star Trek First Contact" co-star Alfre Woodward. Read the full interview at SciFi Pulse.
Baird gets in Patrick Stewart’s face shooting "Nemesis"
VOTE: What could have saved Nemesis?
Was the 4th TNG feature film doomed from the start or would a different cast, script or director made all the difference? Vote in the latest poll (right column)
Comments»
BAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIRD!!!!!
I agree that Baird was not the right choice for Nemesis.
what happening with in the pictures with Beard and Picard in chair?
–Manrum
I really don’t get why they didn’t go with Jonathan Frakes again. He helmed the two best TNG films. Since Nemesis a screenwriter who was steeped in Trek knowledge, it seems illogical to have a director who knew nothing and was unwilling to learn (which I infer Levar Burton is saying here)
Yes, it seems he’s become the “nemesis” of the TNG cast.
There hasn’t been much negative press about Abrams’ relations with the new cast, thankfully. But it seems that the strong reaction to Baird didn’t surface until after the movie’s release? Was this the case? Anthony?
OK Anthony…the title of your story sucked me in.
I was half expecting to read that Burton and Nichols were going to say how much Abrams reminds them of Baird. I was happy to see which direction Burton took that comparison.
Well, he may have been a terrible director, but there is plenty of blame to go around for the giant turd that was Nemesis.
Baird gets in Patrick Stewart’s face shooting “Nemesis”
caption should read:
“From now on, I’m calling you Noodles. Hey, Levon — now, your eyeballs glow in the dark. Got it? Good. Let’s shoot.”
I don’t think another director would have mattered. Word of mouth didn’t kill this movie, it tanked right out of the gate on opening weekend. In other words, people didn’t see the film, realize it sucked and proceed to spread the news, causing the film’s attendance to drop the second week out. In the case of Nemesis, people, including fans, weren’t there for the FIRST weekend.
People just weren’t interested in seeing it, period. Seems to me, the TNG cast are just looking for excuses rather than accept the possibility that they had simply wore out their welcome.
# 4 - “it seems illogical to have a director who knew nothing and was unwilling to learn (which I infer Levar Burton is saying here)”
It’s one thing not to know but it’s also another thing not to learn about it. I believe Nick Meyer knew nothing about Star Trek, but I suppose he did his homework and look what he did for Star Trek.
# 5 - “But it seems that the strong reaction to Baird didn’t surface until after the movie’s release? ”
Well would you expect any less? Right on the heels of the movie’s release would they have been saying “Well the director knows nothing about Star Trek, we should have gone with someone else.”
“Seems to me, the TNG cast are just looking for excuses rather than accept the possibility that they had simply wore out their welcome.”
I agree to an extent, however, it was Star Trek in general at the time. I remember the movie was “expected” to do a $26 Million Dollar opening weekend. But unfortunately the movie just did not appeal to the masses. To be honest I thought the commercials sucked for the movie.
However, one can not over look how many bad reviews the movie had gotten. Would rather it had been an excellent movie than a bad movie, despite it’s gross.
Nemesis was nothing more than a good TNG episode.
5
I was not in ‘the biz’ during the run up to Nemesis, but I dont remember much said about the new director from the cast. I have heard first hand from people who worked on it that it was a very unpleasant set. Everyone who I have talked to about the environment on the new movie have been nothing but glowing, and this includes off the record chats where people are just talking about life making the new trek.
Baird was a horrible choice to direct the movie, and it was a horrible reason that he got the job. His direction more than anything is what made Nemesis such a disappointment (I don’t think it was a horrible film, mind you, but it was *very* disappointing). Baird should just stick with film editing.
IMHO, natch. :)
“I probably would have hired a different director.”
well, for that matter, any real director, would be better than film editor :] but in the field of film editing - the nemesis IS the best, but that’s all…
If they were not going to let Frakes Direct it maybe they should have let Burton take a shot… his episode were always good… NEM could have been SO much better… I want more TNG…
#10 - Perhaps this was part of the problem. Sure, no one would admit Baird’s ineptitude publicly, during the movie’s marketing campaign, but what about internally? Was the cast voicing these concerns during production to TPTB? If it was so bad, wouldn’t you, as an artist, take a stand? I make no claims of knowing what goes on behind the scenes of a studio-made movie, and I respect the TNG actors, but it makes me wonder…
I love Star Trek, and I’m just not sure who to blame for Nemesis’ failure.
All in all, maybe it was a blessing in disguise, because now we have Abrams’ fresh take to look forward to.
Baird was only one of many issues with Nemesis. The main one was the script - a poor rehash of TWOK - STII.
JJ has approached the project with full respect and empathy.
The adventure continues…
I recall reading quite a bit that the reasoning on Baird was that he was to bring a fresh approach to Trek and revitalize the franchise.
Sound familiar?
#13 - Thank you, Anthony. I guess I was a little surprised at your headline - to suggest a connection between Baird and Abrams, given the overall positive feeling we’ve been getting otherwise.
But it is attention-grabbing…
I really hope the Next Gen gets the proper sendoff they deserve. Maybe when this 3 picture deal with Abrams is over, they’ll have one more go at it.
@1 - lol
He did seem to especially annoy “Laverne” Burton (as he apparently insisted on naming him) and his oft reported disregard for what had gone before (it’s PHASERS you toe rag!!!) did seem to say it all.
The thing is though, how much of that was down to Baird, and how much to the script by Logan? I’ve read a few things by Logan since then, and he is plainly someone who knows how to put together a great script. I loved Sweeny Todd and Gladiator is a great, great film in my humblest of opinions, but I really disliked Nemesis intensely. Even the credits annoyed me (that font looked stupid!!)
Both films have superb directors though.
It’s just interesting to ponder whether the Nemesis script in the hands of a better director could have been a good film. Could even be that B4 (retch), Mad Max Picard and Troy’s wholly unneccessary violation scene were all Baird’s fault?
Did anyone actually buy it and wade through the director commentary or an interview where Baird fesses up to poisoning the well? (Does he sound like Dick Dasterdly on the commentary track?)
I admit it’s the only Trek film I’ve never bought. And I’ve bought the others in pretty much every format they came out on. But it just pains me too much to watch it again.
I downloaded the Nemisis script a year before the movie and thought it was great. As soon as I heard Baird was directing, I thought of his movie US Marshals which didn’t hold a candle to The Fugitive. The pacing was bad, the big scene didn’t come until halfway through the movie unlike the Fugitive’s train wreck in the beginning.
I’d say Baird was to blame and Frakes would have made a great Nemisis Movie
A different director like Frakes would have created a different “feel” on the set and would have possibly worked with the writers on some changes. Frakes “gets it” and Baird did not. Star Trek is very complex with a 40+ year history which Baird had no respect for.
That is what I like about JJ and his team. He brought in folks that like Star Trek, who “get it” and respect what it means to all the fans and those that have worked on it in the past. I think it is cool that he invited all the TOS actors to the set.
Star Trek is the only TV/movie property I can think of that has such a long and distingushed history. Paramount dropped the ball placing it in the hands of Baird who was clueless.
11
Agreed, the commercials for the movie just did NOT make it look very appealing. It was really dark and grim and didn’t look like it would be even remotely fun.
You could almost hear people rolling their eyes in the theater during the trailer. “Oh god, another one of these…”
I also think we were in the midst of the first three years of Enterprise which didn’t help.
Let’s look to the future of Trek which looks very exciting
Anthony, that picture of Levar Burton is terrible.
The man looks deranged… :D
Baird is and always will be a prat.
And the caption should read:
Stewart: “You, know, I can see up your nose”
Frakes would always be the better choice. Keep it in the family, but with Lord of the Rings The Two Towers opening the following week, didn’t help. They should have chosen a different time slot for Nemisis
I watched Nemesis yesterday… And beeing the geek that I am, i listened to Rick Berman’s comment track, and he actually said that “Frakes was busy with another project at the time” (Probably Thinderbirds?)…
I would like to see a new cut of Nemesis. Perhaps for a blu-ray release.
Patrick Stewart was talking about the possibility of an actors cut, some years ago.
One thing is for sure: The 2002 version of Nemesis is unworthy, beeing the last TNG-Movie.
It’s bad how Baird fared
The actors he scared
He stunk up the place
And lost the Trek race
He shouldn’t have dared!
I thought the movie was good, it’s the one sheet poster that sucks.
#9: I’m wondering how many of the Trek fans were influenced by The Facer’s annotated script review that made the rounds of the ‘net several months before the film’s release. I read that version (one that, if I remember correctly, John Logan himself denied was the version of the film they were shooting–even though it was) and I found the script to be utterly dreadful, made enjoyable only by The Facer’s witty and withering commentary. I avoided the film the first weekend in order to see if the advance review was correct. Clearly, it was.
#13: I actually was in Nordstrom at the Grove here in L.A. a week ago, and happened to overhear a Trek crew member chatting about the new film with someone else in the men’s department. I surreptitiously looked at a row of jackets as a way to listen more to what the guy was saying. Unfortunately, he didn’t spill any details other than to mention he worked in an on-set construction capacity, but his opinion of his experience on the film was extremely positive. That doesn’t say anything about how good or bad the final product will be, but at least it confirms what everyone else is saying about the new movie’s working environment.
I absolutely despise the end of Nemesis. That tainted my opinion of the rest of the movie.
overall i quite enjoyed nemesis… now insurection, theres my least favorite trek film, that the shats try at directorship…
#22 - Re: your question about Baird’s DVD commentary . . . I listened to it when I bought the first Nemesis DVD (the single-disc), and it was AWFUL. When he’s not proudly saying how he cut the character scenes to keep the action moving, he’s leaving us with long stretches of silence. The only thing worse is watching Rick Berman’s introduction to the deleted scenes.
The film tanked because the script called for Picard to re-instate the Romulan Empire at the end.
WTF?
This movie was the worst of all possibilities: recombining old plots from every movie that worked instead of at least stealing from other sources. Think about how great First Contact was: it stole from Shakespeare AND George Romero.
At it’s cold blooded heart, the script was fascist in sensibility and execution.
Instead of strange new worlds, Picard fights his prissy double. Instead of political satire or even intrigue, we see a film, completely dark with relentless brutality at it’s core, all for numbnut reasons that wouldn’t even cause two jealous jocks to fight over a girl a football field.
It followed the trend of every action movie in it’s pacing and it’s design. A large phallic object is about to penetrate a sweet round one. There is a little bit of pre-destruction along the way, but conservatism rules. Nothing changes. Even Data’s memory is erased.
Sorry if I’m being poetic. I dragged my girlfriend to it and had to live that down.
@31 - that’s very interesting that he said that… I’m sure I remember seeing Frakes in the actual film though, so he can’t have had *that* much of a schedule conflict…?
It does simply sound like Baird got the job for the wrong reasons, and Rick Bergman is making excuses…
@32 - an actors’ cut could be quite funny… would it be full of the actors hamming it up big style? You can picture it all being big long talky Picard moments… heh! Actually, that’s still a huge improvement.
There were bits I liked. I liked Shinzon lots and thought the actor did a very good job for the first half of the film. I just think I’d have preferred it if he’d not been a clone with a disease that was about to kill him THE SAME FREAKING WEEK THEY DECLARE WAR…. sheesh! Oh look over there… it’s a gigantic implausible co-incidence field Captain…
#34: No kidding about that sucky poster. I kept praying that was the teaser, and something better would show up. Instead, all we got was Data, two bald guys, a knife, and green smoke . . . bad Photoshop that screamed “straight to DVD.”
And, the most frightening thing about Tom Hardy as Shinzon was his horrible teeth. Even Skeet Ulrich finally got dental work.
What would’ve made “Nemesis” better?
Hmm.
No dune buggies.
No B4.
No Tom Hardy (Patrick Stewart in a dual role, instead).
No Stuart Baird.
That’s a start.
Poor Patrick Stewart looks wholly uncomfortable in the above picture - one can only imagine what he was thinking as Baird positioned himself over him in that way. Methinks Baird has no understanding of social etiquette.
@38 - that does sound about right… he did think it was an action movie didn’t he?
I think I’ll wait for the Blu Ray Super Duper Actors’ Edition with LeVar Burton’s commentary where he slowly roasts Baird’s feet over an open fire….
Baird, Schmaird. The whole idea of the movie, it’s story, couldn’t have been saved by anyone.
POOR FORM, LEVAR…
Unless Stuart Baird constantly berated the actors, kept them working overtime, made a pass at Marina Sirtis and kicked Patrick Stewart’s dog, I am again amazed at the vitriol that gets spewed at this guy, ESPECIALLY the cast and crew!
Yeah, he helped to make a poor film, but he wasn’t the only one… sorry, but the ACTORS slept-walked through their roles in NEMESIS, spouting lines from a yawn-inducing script by John Logan, under the dictatorship of Rick Berman.
Give Stuart Baird a break, for cryin’ out loud. NEMESIS was going to be bad no matter WHO directed it…
#19 YUBinit -
Give it up already.
Actually, Baird’s body language and personal-space invading pictured above reminds me of that pompous (fictitious) director in ‘Entourage’. What was his name, Billy something? A type ‘A’ A-hole, lol. Anybody see that?
After all was said and done, there wasn’t anything that could’ve saved Nemesis. I think that it would have to be done from the floor up in order to have made a good movie. That would mean a COMPLETELY different plot and script. Not to mention a new director. Baird should NEVER be given the captain’s chair for another movie (not just in Trek) EVER again. If Nemesis was any indication of his work, he’s not worth his Hollywood paycheck.
I hope that some day he reads all of these bad reviews about him.
On the plus side, Abrams has gone through a major publicity reign recently with the reviews of Cloverfield. I think he’s going to do great on Trek. For once, I have faith in the heart.
Back to the negative side: the only part of Nemesis that I liked was the brief one-minute cameo of Admiral Janeway. Voyager was a good series. Enterprise can go and die for all I care, though. Bakula gets thrown in the “Baird” pile, minus a few good episodes.
Abrams, do us proud.
Frakes would have saved Nemesis for most people, although I have to admit that I enjoyed it.
#47 - The actors seemed worn out during Nemesis. Picard was too giddy about the dune-buggy, and the first few scenes of the movie, IMO, were way too light. It was sitcom TNG for the first 10 minutes. I enjoy humor and especially humor in Trek, but it was over the top.
Stuart Baird, if he didn’t respect Star Trek, why would anyone(cough, Rick Berman, cough) expect him to respect the production, as well as established actors playing established roles?
Agreed. John Logan’s script, in the way it was shot and cut, seemed like a fanboy take at TNG. A few notches down from highly polished and professional. I know he wrote Gladiator and some other good ones, but sometimes you write a flop. All of these players seem to have gone on with their lives, but it doesn’t mean thay have opinions.
Well it was a little early to remake Star Trek II and III (Down to the absent friends quote, what, does EVERY Captain who loses logical walking computer give that toast?). The villan wasn’t as good as Khan and the baddies weren’t as bad as the Klingons. Instead of this movie, they should have done the infiltration story that the clone was originally created for. Now that could have been an exciting movie.
39: “The script was fascist in sensibility and execution.”
The hell?? I’ve heard a lot of weird, nonsensical attacks on Nemesis, but that one earns some sort of award.
I’m not a great fan of TNG (or that whole era), however I won’t say the TNG crew wore out their welcome.
I would just say they were never given the right projects. First Contact and Generations were the only films I cared for… From story to character treatment to action, etc. Even still, I had problems with them both that could have been repaired with a bit more care to the project.
Nemesis? Thanks, I’d much rather watch Trek V.
There was no salvaging that crapola. I really can’t think of anything redeeming about that film, other than pulling the plug from going any further into bad movie history.
People didn’t go to see Nemesis because they left the previous film going, “Blech.” The experience made people care less what the next movie was about. It’s obviious by the amount the movie took in over opening weekend. There was just no excitement there for the next movie.
#4 - I wouldn’t have minded Frakes getting to direct again, but calling Insurrection one of “the two best TNG movies” is faint praise indeed, seeing as there were only four of them. And, IMO, only one of them (First Contact) was really any good. As it is, it astonishes me that as good a show as TNG was, they only came up with one film that was really as good as the best films of the TOS series.
Anyhow, I think Insurrection underperforming may have been a factor in Paramount’s decision to go with someone else for Nemesis (ironic then that Nemesis flat out bombed). The problem with Insurrection was that it simply came off as an episode of the TV show, expanded to feature length and the story simply wasn’t strong enough or epic enough for feature length. Following up First Contact, it came off as really weak. Worf with a pimple? Umm… Sure.
I’d actually put Generations ahead of Insurrection, if only for Shatner’s wonderful performance in that film. Honestly, say what you will about him but he pulled the rug (no, that’s not a hairpiece joke) right out from under Stewart and the rest of the TNG case. And I’ll take Malcom McDowell as a villain over the goofy performance of F. Murray Abraham any day. Oh, and bonus points for the crashing of Enterprise D! That was a great scene.
God… I hate Nemesis. I always hope for an improved “director’s cut”, but I know that probably will never happen. The characte rstuff that was cut out should have been put back in. And that stupid dune buggy scene should be cut. Enterprise detects the positronic pulse, and in the next scene we see B4 in the lab. Simple. We all know starships have transporters.
I really hope that isn’t the end for TNG. I hope that after 2 TOS films, they give us a TNG film, and then a 3rd TOS film. If they wait to long, the TNG cast will be too old. I actually would prefer two or three Direct-to-DVD films for TNG to end the series on a high note. As long as Patrick gets paid well, I have no doubt he would do it, and the rest of the cast would certainly follow as direct-to-DVD does not have the same stigma it use too. Plus, if you want DATA in the film; simple… just set the movie before Nemesis!
47: “POOR FORM, LEVAR…
Unless Stuart Baird constantly berated the actors, kept them working overtime, made a pass at Marina Sirtis and kicked Patrick Stewart’s dog, I am again amazed at the vitriol that gets spewed at this guy, ESPECIALLY the cast and crew!”
I’m not amazed one bit. We’ve all seen it before…ever read what some “fans” and even actors have said about Berman and Braga? In today’s fandom “what have you done for me lately?” is the way of things.
#33: LMFAO
That’s the best post i’ve seen on here in a long time.
Moving the movie to July would have helped a little but the film as a whole was pretty lame. Although the FX were top-end thanks to Digital Domain! The battle of the Bassan Rift between the Enterprise-E and the Scimitar is going to look so damn good on Blu-ray. I can’t wait.
#12: I wouldn’t call Nemesis a “good” TNG TV episode at all!
That would mean putting it up with there with the likes of “Measure of a Man,” “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” or the epic, more movie length, stuff like “Best of Both Worlds” TNG’s Klingon saga or “All Good Things…” I know you weren’t exactly praising Nemesis, but would you honestly put it on a level with those episodes? I wouldn’t.
The pervading mood in Nemesis was of defeat. It was everywhere. It didn’t help that the film came in the wake of DS9’s Dominion War ending with all sides either crippled or in need of reconstruction. The whole cast seems to shrug, “It’s over” all the way through. We’re told from the (uncomfortable) wedding onward that several crewmembers are leaving the Enterprise voluntarily. When Data dies it’s like he’s just one more crewmember leaving the family for greener pastures. Patrick Stewart played Picard like he’d completely lost interest in the character (probably a side-effect of butting heads continually with Baird).
It wasn’t what TNG always had been: bright and optimistic and a family. It was the disillusionment of middle age. As if everything we had experienced before was through younger, niave eyes and now all the cracks and the dryrot were visable.
Insurrection may have been the reason for the poor turnout on opening weekend (that and the oversaturation of three separate ’spin-off’ shows on TV). To me Insurrection was a tremendous letdown. Not godawful, just uninspired, forgetable, bland, flacid and hokey. I can see how the general movie-going public would’ve lost interest in Trek between the two films. Insurrection was a pastiche of recycled scenes and ideas from TNG episodes that by then were well known to even the most casual of viewers. Why pay the price for admission for seeing something that was being rerun daily on cable?
And John Logan certainly has to take some heat for Nemesis’ short-comings as well. Since the film came out and fans began berating it, Logan has told us (too many times to count) of scenes and dialogue that would’ve improved the film. However, all these little plot points (Wesley’s back-story, the extended ending transitioning the crew into their new positions) do little to convince me that a longer cut of the film would’ve saved it. It was just a lousy premise. The notion that Picard — who we remember confidently telling the omnipotent Q that his help was “not required”, the same Picard who faced down his inner Borg demons — could be so rattled by facing a misshapen younger version of himself was hardly plausible. And redundant. In the films it was becoming a trend to tear down Picard from the inside out. His breakdowns in Generations and First Contact utill he’s little more than a completely shaken old man in Nemesis and no one wants to serve under him anymore. Out with a whimper, not a bang.
It’s a shame that the 24th century went out on that last note.
Patrick Stewart must have had this clause in his contract: “Mr. Stewart will be on screen more than 50% of the time. The story will be 75% about Picard and clone-boy. Data will be killed off to allow any possible sequels to be 95% about Picard.”
Watching Nemesis is like watching an extended version of Agent Smith’s little throwaway line from Matrix 3: “ME, ME, ME!!!” Just substitute Picard for Smith and there you have it.
Parts of Nemesis were good, but only a few. I felt the story took some liberties (the positronic signal to find B4, A dune buggy chase? ) The dune buggy wouldn’t have bothered me except for the “Mad Max” car chase sequence with an improbable ending. It would have been better if the car had missed the Argo and resulted in a near fatal accident that a damaged Data and wounded Picard and Worf would narrowly escape with their lives back to the E. The starship battle with the ramming at the end, I liked. The notion of Shinzon being a clone… not so much. This movie begged for a new director and better writing. Too contrived. Too much fluff.
Stuart Baird edited Superman the Movie 1978 and the Omen. In my books, he is a hero and this man knows how to make movies.
You can’t make chicken soup out of chicken poop. Nemesis was an absurdly convoluted script. Poorly written and conceived.
Sean4000
thanks for the compliment!
Nemesis couldn’t have been more generic, boring & out of character..what a waste. That romulan ship was so bland it was like a 7 year old drew it
#47: So, a respected actor and creator like Levar doesn’t have the right to an opinion? He was asked, and he answered truthfully.
What good is the interview if he skirts the issue and just says “Oh, everything was fine.” The movie sucked, it bombed worse than any Trek film ever has (even ST 5 at least made a small profit), and very few fans liked it. The whole cast (not just Levar, I’ve read similar comments from others) disliked the guy. What is it you want?
You comments suggest Levar is some hateful person… Other examples of this? I’ve never met him, but any interview I’ve ever seen or read has made him seem like a very thoughtful man. So what if fans and actors had problems with Berman & Braga? A lot of us really disliked the TNG films, and really disliked what B & B did to Voyager and Enterprise as well. I didn’t being a fan meant acting like a flock of sheep and happily accepting whatever junk Paramount churns out (and they’ve churned out a lot).
I’ve liked very little Star Trek since DS9 (my favorite series) ended, and I wasn’t even terribly happy with the way DS9 wrapped things up. That doesn’t mean I’m not a Trek fan. I’ve loved Trek since the late 70’s when I was about nine years old. I’ve seen lots of good and bad. It’s ridiculous to say a true fan has to like everything. If so, why should Paramount put any care into anything?
Personally, I never liked Braga. Berman should get credit for taking the reins from Roddenberry when he got too sick to be involved on a dialy basis. TNG remained a good show, perhaps became an even better show, under Berman’s direction. But he ran out of ideas and stayed on the job way too long. It happens.
23 - John Locke
Have you downloaded the script of the new film yet? : )
#69 - Shaun
Why do I get the feeling that if Stuart Baird didn’t have as much trouble with LeVar’s name, than maybe Burton would be a little more diplomatic towards him in interviews?
Actors have sensitive egos… I’m sure LeVar Burton is just as susceptible to real or preceived slights just like anyone else.
That being said… calling him “Laverne” IS pretty funny…
Sorry, my comments in #69 should be directed at both #47 (as noted) & #59. It was a little confusing when I read it the first time. Anyhow, I stand by the points I made.
58. “I always hope for an improved “director’s cut””
Honestly, I can think of only a couple films that have ever been improved by a director’s cut (”Blade Runner” and ST:TMP come to mind). There are no amazing, unseen chunks of Nemesis that, if recut back into the film, will ever save it.
I also remember how Rick Berman said at the time leading up to its’ release in every single inverview, “We’ve got John Logan, the writer of ‘Gladiator’, onboard.” But John Logan was just one of three writers on ‘Gladiator’ and not even the main scriptwriter. That always bugged me.
#71 - I hadn’t heard about that… That IS funny, albeit insulting if you’re the one being misnamed!
Weird… Does this mean Baird never heard of Levar? Seven years of Star Trek and more than a decade (maybe two?) of Reading Rainbow aside… Had the guy never heard of Roots? Sheesh.
I enjoyed Data singing
Nemesis was a sort of greatest hits package of the original crew films:
Peace on the horizon with long standing villians that is being sabotaged (TUC)
Genetically eniginered villian with a personal grudge against the captain (TWOK)
Preparing for end battle scene with the crew looking busy (TWOK)
Battle in a system disrupting nebula (TWOK)
Enterprise and assistance battle vessel that can fire when cloaked (TUC)
Life and death fight where the villian gets 3 boots to the face and falls to oblivian (TSFS) - i half expected Riker to yell ‘I…Have Had…Enough of YOU!!’
Sacrifiace of science officer to save the ship - which is limping away at best possible speed - who has placed his ‘katra’ in someone else.(TWOK)
Absent friends scene (TSFS)
Realisation that science officer ‘lives on’ in someone else (TSFS)
the end where the Ent is in spacedock was a nice homage to TMP -complete with a very brief touch of Goldsmiths TMP score..
Maybe Frakes directing wouldve made it better - i think it would…But i dont think itd have made much more at the box office..i just think TNG had sorta run out of gas by that point and the thrill of seeing a ST: TNG movie at the cinema just wasnt there any more…(unlike TOS films who had their biggest success with their 4th film)…Insurrection probably had a bit to do with that but Nemesis was the nail in the photon tube.
66. “Stuart Baird edited Superman the Movie 1978 and the Omen. In my books, he is a hero and this man knows how to make movies.”
No one’s denying that Baird is a fine editor, one of the most effective in the business, in fact (he even edited “Casino Royale” recently). But he’s only ever directed a couple times and all evidence points to the fact that he doesn’t work well with actors. As an editor he’s mostly never had to deal with actors. He didn’t deal well with the cast of Nemesis and he hasn’t attempted to direct another film in the five years since then.
So where I agree that he is a celebrated (and rightly so) editor, he’s an inneffective director.
In fairness to Baird, his original cut was much longer & had a great deal more character moments. It was Rick Berman who ordered the film chopped down to under 2 hours. Lets remember the longest ST movie is also the highest grossing! Hope JJ isn’t afraid to tell a story within time restraints so the multiplexes can squeeze an extra showing in.
The other problem was, along with a TWOK rehashed script, the cast was looking way too old, especially bloated Frakes (who IMO is an excellent Trek director but was far too long in the tooth to be playing the brash young No. 1) & a shockingly aged Gates McFadden.
Nemesis had problems all over the place, and while the director was a dud I’m not sure that Spielberg or Peter Jackson could’ve helped that script.
The story was dull, and it came out of left field (the Remans? We never heard a thing about them before). The villain was supposed to Picard’s “Khan” (if I remember interviews with Rick Berman correctly) but he wasn’t even close. Shinzon, the Picard clone who didn’t look like Picard. What was that all about? Why was a Picard clone made in the first place? IIRC, he wasn’t a captain or a major player in the Federation at that point. It’s been so long, and I’ve tried to wipe that memory from my mind, so perhaps some can correct me if I’m getting this all wrong.
I just remember sitting there in the theater, saying “WTF?” to myself over and over again during that movie: Wesley (whom I never minded, Wil Wheaton rocks!) getting a cameo of no consequence and NO dialogue, the dune buggy, and a story that (barely) involves the Romulans yet we’ver never gotten any sort of closure to Spock’s storyline?
Sorry, but if I’d been in charge I’d have wanted the 10th Trek film to be a film to remember. I would’ve done whatever it took to get Nimoy involved, and made that story about the need to rescue Spock and maybe even lay the groundwork for unification between Vulcan and Romulus. In the aftermath of the Dominion War, it might’ve made sense.
And Data’s death… Ugh. What was the point of that? Let’s kill one of TNG’s most beloved characters off for no good reason, and then replace him with this B4 or K9 or whatever the hell he was called… Even if that film hadn’t come out around the same time as LOTR and Harry Potter, there was no way it was going to do well.
Fans love to blame the director,but at the end of the day it was a bad script,what about doing an adventure with q and having the ferengi and using the tng history?
Also would of been good to see riker get command of his new ship and maybe see him in battle against shinzon,ah well it all comes down to budget and time!,
That is the reason why nemesis was not as good as the others,same with generations,mega rushed!!!!!!!!!
“I really don’t get why they didn’t go with Jonathan Frakes again. He helmed the two best TNG films.” - Crusade 2267
Wow. Perspective is the key. Only compared to Nemesis and Generations can Insurrection be called a “best” of anything.
Anthony and Chuck- It’s cool to get your perspectives on info like this. I’ve never heard anything concerning Baird and now feel I understand the confusion of Nem.
Baird was a particularly inspired director, sure, but that god awful script is THE single main reason my the film bombed and sucked and blew all at once.
I never understood why so many Trek fans dislike Nemesis. I liked the movie. It was well directed, it had heart, and it was a great way to end TNG.
I think the only problem with the film was when it was released. It came out against one of the Lord of The Rings films, as I recall, and there was a glut of Star Trek shows on numerous channels. I’m a big Trek fan, and I recall being somewhat indifferent to the movie, before I even saw the trailer. Nemesis had a lot going against it, but I think in hindsight, and perhaps a few years from now, the film will stand up perfectly well against the others. Someone else here pointed out that TNG had worn out its welcome, and I think there’s a lot of truth to that. Perhaps if they’d gone on hiatus for a couple more years and then made Nemesis, Baird wouldn’t have been thrown under the bus by the cast.
I believe the word you’re looking for is “contrast.”
Well, it didn’t feel like Trek. So we can blame Baird for that.
However there were certainly other problems. The script was pretty weak. The villain lame. The characters didn’t feel like the same characters we grew to know. Logan might have been a Trek fan who knew the canon… which was made obvious by the fact that he wrote so much of it into the script expecting everyone watching the movie (not taking into account that non-fans also go to movies) to understand it. He didn’t seem to really get the characters. Picard is an intelligent, enlightened man who would not think that someone made up of his genetic material is some kind of mirror for him. He wouldn’t struggle with these types of thoughts.
There were many missed opportunities here. We go to Romulus but of course no Spock underground movement. It lacked an epic feel. No Romulan fleet or large amazing sets. Only a hand full of Romulans and a small set that really still felt like a few actors on a sound stage. B-4… well no real explanation of where he came from and we still had a perfectly good Lore character that we never saw what happened to after he was dismantled.
Now when it comes down to business, the amount of people that are going to go see a sequel are somewhat proportional to the amount that liked the movie that came before it. Insurrection was not a very good movie but did well enough because people liked First Contact. Fans and non-fans could go and enjoy it. After seeing Insurrection, they figure things are going down hill. Put that against a blockbuster like Lord of the Rings and people are going to choose Lord of the Rings.
Not to mention poor marketing and lack of buzz.
It’s really all just a combination of various factors and really can’t be blamed on just one thing or one person.
It’s really kind of a shame b/c that’s the send off TNG got. There are no second chances. No way to say that it’s over, it was a fun ride and ended on a good note.
Thank you for bringing us this piece of news, I find the whole thing very interesting. I had no idea that Baird wasn’t even interested in directing Nemesis in the first place. No wonder the movie bombed.
Also, I just wanted to say that the title of this article is very misleading. When I read “Burton and Nichols Compare Baird To Abrams”, I thought they meant the two men were alike, which I found out is not the case at all by reading the article. What the title should have said is “Burton and Nichols Compare Baird WITH Abrams.” I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be picky, please don’t shoot me… :-D
They might have been able to save Nemesis if Paramount had gotten somebody else to direct, got a good story and script, and not release it when another major movie was coming out. Also, getting rid off Berman & Braga and getting Coto might have helped- at the very least, Coto could’ve brought some new ideas or a different perspective.
Honestly though, a good script with a good story would’ve gone a long way. Especially when coupled with great performances from the actors.
script sucked
Decloaking . . .
To: Anthony Pascale,
Tony thanks for proving one of the points (#4) from my “Paramount doesn’t respect us Trekkers” rant from post #397 on “BREAKING NEWS: Star Trek Pushed To May 2009 [UPDATED] February 13, 2008.”
That said, your excellent indepth coverage of “J.J.’s Supreme Court” is starting to win me over, but I still have reservations about the new flick.
Recloaking.
Don’t forget that Brent Spiner also helped Logan with the story. The story could have been alot tighter if they had dumped the B4 storyline. I really think that was Spiner idea.
Patrick Stewart I remember also had a hard time with Baird (look at the photo). Paramount I believe is ultimatly to blame on Nemesis and Insurrection.
The release date for Nemesis sealed it fate also.
Not to mention the worst Trek movie poster I have ever seen.
Overall I liked the space battles in Nemesis but the rest is kinda boring.
@84 Easy. As stated earlier Nemesis is a poor rehash of ST II.
Nemesis had many, many things going against it:
1)Stuart Baird ( a great editor, but a lousy director)
2)John Logan, who clearly didn’t understand Trek the way he thought he did, thus the awkward dialogue and poor treatment of the characters
3)Following Insurrection, a poor film that had managed to turn many people off of silver screen Trek
4)TWOK-inspired plotline that simply came off as a cheap shadow of not only that movie, but the show itself (TNG)
5)No strong Trek-related TV at the time (people were burned out by the time Enterprise came around)
Add to this the poorly cast guest stars - like Hardy & Dina Meyer - and you have a recipe for crapitude that likely no one could have saved.
@93
People weren’t, and aren’t burnt out on Trek.
they were, and are, burnt out on CRAP Trek.
12 million people watched the premiere of Enterprise.
10 million thought it was crap and never watched it again.
Well, even though Nemesis was a HORRIBLE film for LOTS of reasons…I am not going to jump on the “bash Baird bandwagon”. For one, I love the films he served as editor on — The Omen, Superman — The Movie, Superman II…etc. Plus, he’s friends with director Richard Donner who I hold in very high esteem as a director.
I will go to my grave saying the main problem with Nemesis was the STORY and SCRIPT! Maybe if Baird had had more to work with the film would have been better…but that story SUCKED.
And those of you saying Frakes should have directed it…well, INSURRECTION sucked just as hard as NEMESIS. Then, he went on and directed that GODAWFUL THUNDERBIRDS movie.
So, if anyone’s talent as a director is suspect…I’d have to say it’s Mr. Frakes!
#27, LeVar is probably deranged from being called “Laverne” over and over again…BWAHAHHAHAHA!!!!
It’s all Baird’s fault!
19. YUBinit - March 3, 2008
“I recall reading quite a bit that the reasoning on Baird was that he was to bring a fresh approach to Trek and revitalize the franchise.
Sound familiar?”
Another attempt to insult JJ Abrams and Co.
Yeah, it sounds familiar.
#39, don’t feel bad. =p
I didn’t read any prior reviews, and to be honest, other than Wil Wheaton’s website, I don’t know how I knew the movie was coming out! I saw it on opening night and the.next.day. I was on the phone with one of my friends and we were discussing how every other scene had already been done before in Trek. I haven’t read the ‘original’ script, but the “mad max” moments didn’t annoy me nearly as much as the constant deja vu feeling. What’s worse is that none of it was an improvement…it was as if the TNG crew had a playdate on the holodeck involving re-hashing the original crew’s exploits.
(And really, most ST fans are definitely overly familiar with “what came before” so I don’t know why anyone would think that re-hashing past events would fly past anyone! If anything, the mad max and violation scenes made it more interesting!)
Furthermore, I found the editing and Berman’s mess to just be further proof of the hierarchy at work. Look at how they wittled down Wheaton’s scenes…can you even see him in the full screen edition?
The weakness with TNG was that the crew never seemed to fully “mesh” or develop as the TOS crew did. I have vague ideas of their personalities and how they would react to each other…but nothing as concrete as TOS. They just didn’t get that interaction on the series or in the movies…and having them re-hash TOS stuff just made that even more apparent. After all this time together, there was still that awkwardness in the script.
I was *thrilled* to have the Romulans back again. I liked the idea of Shinzon, but the rest (including the way it was carried out) was crap. (I was really hoping B4 would be Lore…having had himself put out as bait for the Enterprise crew and working with Shinzon…but NO!)
#94 is spot on. I didn’t even make it through the first half hour. The introduction with words and everything just really didn’t help set the ‘mood’ for me. (That and I’m just not interested in the ‘history’ of the ‘future’ - felt to me like they couldn’t come up with something more technologically advanced than TNG’s science, so they decided to go back in time and set the creativity bar a bit lower.)
It just sucked in every way. They ignored the fact that Lore ever existed and they acted like B4 was something they’ve never seen before. That’s the part I couldn’t get past….nothing else rang true because of that.
Add to the fact that I think the actors knew it sucked from the start and they just phoned in their perfomances. The characters became the actor’s instead of the other way around. (This would be the problem with Shatner trying to revise Kirk at this point.)
Now on to Insurrection; I’ve seen this movie ALOT and continue to enjoy it every time. The only complaint would be that it isn’t EPIC enough to follow First Contact, but as far as the plot and the acting….I think it’s a very good chapter in TNG story.
Freakin’ Baird!
78.- A shockingly aged Gates McFadden?! Come on man… she and Marina both looked good… that’s crazy. Gates McFadden actually got better looking as TNG went on IMO…
I do agree that Frakes looked a bit old to be young and brash, but he did get married and he did finally become a captain… the one that always bothered me was Brent Spiner, but what can you do… ? We all age.
It’s funny to me that one day, in say oh, I dunno, 30 years, someone might be saying the same stuff about Pine or Quinto, LOL.
I think Nemesis would have been better had they hired a director who knows Star Trek and cares for the actors and the fans, i think some one at paramount should recut the film to give us the character moments , to give us a fuller richer film and much better send off to our friends.
#94, I can’t agree more with you. I was indeed one of those 10 million. It’s the whole “First impression” thing. I thought it was crap. Enterprise should’ve been cancelled after Broken Bow.
I think it’s time for change. Yes, lots and lots of change. We need change. CHANGE! I will SAY that it is a time for change, but I will do nothing about it. Yes, that’s the way America likes it. Lots of change all right. Yep… change. We like to talk about change, but I don’t see much change happening. I don’t think that OBAirdA had the EXPERIENCE for Trek to pull it off successfully.
OK uh…. Why exactly is Nemesis considered a bomb? I uh…liked it. *shrug*
#104 — You forgot “Hope”…we need change AND hope.
I’m a hopemonger…and a changemonger.
*snort*
Sure…an actor who’s only legacy will be Star Trek: The Next Generation is telling me that the guy who’s had Oscar and BAFTA nominations is to blame for ‘Nemesis’ bombing.
What’s wrong with this picture?
Right, right. How could I forget “hope?” I often forget that when our presidential candidates, belay that, MOVIE DIRECTORS are showing off their level 2 wizarding skills for the Alliance. (Please see World of Warcraft for joke details) to include such things.
And so I don’t get massacred by the administration for posting political commentary (if they haven’t murdered me already):
I personally believe that most Americans don’t have maps which is why I personally believe that J.J. Abrams should be director of the NEXT Trek movie and that’s what I personally believe.
You never know at what point the script deviates from the writer’s original intent and the subsequent follies in casting, directing, and so on. In the case of Nemesis, there was a string of bad choices. Baird should not have been directing this film. I liken it extremely close to the Transformers movie. A good script, written by writers who knew the concept, and good producers. But a total dufus for a director. Baird, like Michael Bay, chose to take what had come before, throw it off the bridge and put his “stamp” on it. Well, yeah, funny how 15 years of TNG seemed to work fine before that movie.
All that being said, as surreal and plain weird the movie Nemesis was, had Brent Spiner not insisted on killing his character off, I would have a much better opinion of Nemesis.
“NEMESIS” PROVED ONCE AND FOR ALL…
…that Brent Spiner’s face, in full “Data” make-up, should never be shown on 50-foot theater screens. The close-ups of his pasty complexion and yellow eyes were extremely unsightly. It put me off my popcorn.
(This is NOT a knock on Spiner’s looks. It’s the Data make-up that’s ugly!)
I don’t think I wanna see this movie if I have to wait until next May.
What was wrong with ‘Nemesis?’ I think it was a combination of things. It’s not that ‘Nemesis’ was a terrible film. It had elements that just didn’t belong in the TREK universe.
C’mon.. Picard sand riding in a souped up dune buggy? Good grief!!! Whose idea was this? Who thought this was a good idea? It was a silly element, truly bad… just as bad as ‘Spock’s Brain.’ Yuck! I hated the Data / B4 thing. There was no need to kill off Data! Yuck yuck yuck!
I did not buy into the Shinzon dilemma. Not for one instant! He didn’t move me at all (I know Khan Noonian Singh and Sinzon was no Khan). I didn’t understand either Shinzon nor Picard’s rage. I didn’t buy into the Reman element either.
We have always thought of the Romulans having some modicum of honor (except perhaps in the Klingons’ eyes), yet we are presented a Romulan race overseeing a cruel dominion as slave masters… No Way!
I love the Romulans and this movie blew it in presenting them in a new exciting way.
Fans may not like Wesley Crusher (I do like the character), but he… as well as Guinan deserved better.
The good things? Troi was great as being in turmoil as a victim of mental assault. The Troi / Riker wedding was long overdue and it showed that ‘Star Trek’ could in fact, let it’s characters grow. Stewart was good, as always.
Grading this movie I would give it a B-/C+ . Even Patrick Stewart’s acting couldn’t save this (this from the man who could make an audience weep as reads the phone book). He tried.
The director? Yeah, Mr. Baird was not the right man, but neither was the script. John Logan, who I respect (though I should say I hated ‘Gladiator’), should have been able to have do better than this.
And this was supposed to be the send off for the crew? Sadly, this was just not a fitting end for the crew of the Nexf Gen… it should have been the launch of Titan.
It was a truly misguided effort with plenty of blame to go around.
I liked some parts of the movie. It was not all bad. The scene near the end when Picard used the ship as a battering ram was a cool scene. I saw the movie the first time and thought it was ok. I have seen it twice more and think higher of the film. Die hard trek fans may not like the film but it wasnt as bad as TMP. I fell asleep during that film. In fact whenever I feel like watching all the movies in order I start with The Wrath of Khan and skip TMP altogether. Nemesis had some great action and some great scenes so I think we should cut the film some slack. The film does not remind me of the Wrath of Khan either. In my opinion its an entirely different film.
#69, 72: I never said LeVar is a hateful person, or that he isn’t entitled to an opinion. Not sure how you gathered that from what I said in #59. I actually respect him quite a bit for his work on Reading Rainbow, and I think he is a fine actor. He is, however, a little disingenuous with these comments, given his completely different attitude back in 2002 shortly before Nemesis bombed.
It is worth noting, as a side note, that Burton himself is on the record as having wanted to direct Nemesis (http://www.trektoday.com/news/080401_01.shtml). I have to wonder if there’s a little bit of sour grapes in Burton’s whine.
Insurrection is a soft film but it still has the TNG flavor and everyone gives good performances, I don’t see why people hate on it so much.
It was the script. bottom line. where were the brains - answer - NO WHERE. TNG wasn’t always action, action, action…. it was thought provoking.
and lets face it… a clone of picard wasn’t going to get ahead in romulan politics.
I’m shocked…yet pleased…to see that the largest percentage of voters in your poll voted “different screenwriter/screenplay” with only 9 percent saying TNG films were done.
Still more shocked than pleased, given the usual tone here.
#115… for the record… I agree. Insurrection was a decent film… it had the overwhelming feel of an elaborate episode… but it didn’t stink like Nemesis.
None of the movies have really compared to their parent series. Someone upstairs seems to think that the TREK movies have to be turbo- testosterone injected version of what made each of the series great (and I do mean each of the individual series).
Star Trek has always been the thinking man’s science fiction, but in most cases the movies reflect little of that. ‘ST: TMP’ and ‘The Voyage Home’ came the closest in attempting something with big ideas. I know many of you dislike ‘Insurrection,’ but it also was about something truly morale.’ I applaud that.
I’ve said this before on these pages; I am still waiting for the movie franchise to fulfill its mission of ’seeking out new life and new civilizations…
Giving Nemesis to Baird was a terrible idea. Granted a better story might have helped, but even with that script a solid director who got along with his cast could’ve at least produced a movie that would’ve been more respected and brought in bigger box office. Hell, I would’ve taken Abrams in 2002 despite the fact his experience was mainly in TV than Baird.
#112 Doug:
You nailed it.
Honestly I just can’t connect, emotionally, with the last TNG film. Not because I haven’t tried. I’ve tried hard.
But dune buggies? WTF?
Despite Trek V’s problems, I will always connect with it becuase of its mystical and religious theme of finding, at last, God. Mabye the whole thing was Kirk’s dream while on vacation at Yosemite, but it draws me in a million more times then Nemesis ever will.
If Nemesis had been a hit at the box office nearly everyone on this site would be singing a different tune. The fact is that fans gave up on star trek which is also why Enterprise was cancelled. No one gave it a chance. Most people diss the movie because it did poorly at the box office. Nevermind that other movies like Lord of the Rings were playing at the same time. People were ready for something else. Other movie were different and were something that nobody had ever seen before. Trek had been on TV and on the big screen for many years. For some people (not me, big trek fan) Trek was getting a little old. Nemesis definitely deserves more consideration. I thought the did well. Mayber not major blockbuster but the moviegoers decided that one not the film itself. Fans make a movie a major hit, not the movie itself. I have seen absolute crap score in the theaters without any reason at all except that idiotic people wanted to see it and thus is became a hit.
I’m sure others have voiced this sentiment, but I think lack of a good script was problem numero uno. No doubt, a more Trek-sympathetic director would have helped. I thought Jonathan Frakes did a fine job with the TNG cast, and he would have done a superb job. To my memory, Nemesis was slow-moving and lifeless. The film screamed out “Formula!” with its blatant “switching” of TWOK.
IMO, the TNG movie that should have been made would have been a big, sweeping. epic space adventure, written by a real sci-fi writer, and directed by an A-list director…
Great insights above, especially #76, 79, 86, and 112. True, there are some nice moments, like the Riker-Troi wedding and the killer battle (well, up to the ramming scene, anyway … Data’s death is cold & awful). But mostly it’s like a perfect storm of missteps and blown opportunities.
Such a bummer . . . the TNG crew deserved a far better send-off.
Do people still insist they like First Contact? The movie that ruined Picard and Data buy making one an unreasonable Rambo character and the other a whiny traitor. Single handedly ruined Zephram Cochran by saying a drunk hillbilly could warp physics in his shed in the middle of the woods? Single handedly ruined the Borg by changing them from a unique decentralized hulking menace to a bunch of slaves to a Queen that doesn’t even seem like she’s part of the collective? Oh God, and that red lipstick! Ughhhhh!
I liked it fine.
The rape scene was stupid, the desert car chase was stupid.
the B4 subplot was INCREDIBLY stupid (I blame Spiner for that one).
The villain was a big pussy. There was simply no drama (except for the ships ramming each other, which worked pretty well).
so, there were numerous problems with Nemesis, including the director’s rather deliberate pacing.
I thought Spiner’s “breast” comment and the Pirates singalong were the worst parts of Insurrection. Mebbe we should blame Brent, if anyone at all for the failings of both films.
Never did see Nemesis. I love the TNG crew; I think they’re cool characters and I particularly enjoy any Picard screen-time even if I don’t care much for a given episode … but while I kept an eye on the (fairly scant) buildup toward Nemesis, in the end I heard nothing about the film that tempted me to buy a ticket.
So, as a result, all I can really say about it, pro or con, is: “it failed to tempt me into the theater, and didn’t (and doesn’t) even seem worth renting.”
Stuart Baird it not a very impressive director. His list of directing credits reads like a horror show. That said, his work as an editor, especially with the great director Richard Donner, is exceptional. He is one of the finest editors, but a lousy director. It’s confounding.
The things he wanted to do with Nemesis meant nothing to the overall story. In particular I remember his insistence for getting the bridge put on a gimbal so the set would shake. All that expense for something that could be achieved just as well with simply camera trickery.
Another problem has to be the script. The overall story that Picard has been cloned made absolutely no sense. If the villian had been an embittered Reman who viewed the Federation and the Romulan people as one and the same, it might have provided a dynamic villian. One that we could understand and have some sympathy, but still want to see him defeated.
Plus, you cannot have an Earth placed in danger story without even showing us what’s at stake. Even Generations recognised this fact by demonstrating the destruction of the Veridian system would result in the loss of hundreds of millions of lives and our heroes. Throughout the entire movie it never really feels like the Enterprise is a member of a larger organisation. And while we do see Earth at the start, it’s confined to orbital shots and interiors.
It’s funny, but this story has actually made me go back and watch Nemesis again. I keep trying to like this movie but it just seems like listening to a good song, but played in the wrong key. Shame, but their is enough blame to go around for everyone to have some on their hands. And that includes all of the actors.
#107
Wow, so Burton’s only ‘legacy’ was Trek? How about being the main protaganist in ‘Roots’, one of the most highly acclaimed mini-series of all time? Or the impression he made on millions of children for the 23 years he was involved in Reading Rainbow?
He might not have Academy Award nominations under his belt, but he has won several Emmy & Peadbody awards, in addition to various other honors.
Baird is a very accomplished editor, but that point can be made without diminishing Burton.
The Nemesis script was flawed, yes, and at times severely, but less so than that of, say, The Search for Spock. Certainly less than was TMP’s.
What hurt the movie more than anything else was the fact that -all the best writing- was cut by that savage director Baird and replaced with Generic Action Sequence #47. He was an ignoramus, and proved once and for all that it takes someone who likes Trek to write Trek. As if that weren’t already one of the most obvious writing principles in the world.
I say they should revive TNG after this next star trek. they owe the crew a final chance to go out with bang, something they did not get to do in nemesis.
When I saw Nemesis in the Cinema, I left feeling like nothing had happened… For some reason the film just did little more than lighten my wallett a little, like eating at McDonalds I was feeling full, but not satisfied.
I loved the battle sequences, the effects were nothing special, but hey, at least there was something to watch…
The lack of any good interaction was one of my complaints, and is one of my complaints in TNG movies. Where is Crusher? Geordi? Troi?…..
The “secondary” cast were little more than extras. The Picard / Data focus just grated me too much. Stewart is wonderful, but Spiner loses something when on the silver screen (in my opinion). The characters who had helped shape this universe were unfairly treated in all of the films, but by nemesis in particular.
Baird did little more than offer us a premise for what may have become an interesting Playstation game, and intsead offered a “film” which shafted the fans who genuinely wanted to say goodbye to some of the heroes we grew up with.
(this is all just in my opinion)
From the above picture of Baird and Stewart, it looked like he was trying to intimidate the actor (deliberately or sub-consciously). His body language and positioning looked like it was trying to say “you actors don’t impress me - - I’m in charge here and we’re doing it my way”.
Also, I’ve said this in another thread but hope those who’ve already read it will forgive me for repeating myself, but WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE DUNEBUGGY SCENE? I just don’t get it! Is it because you think he is too old to play? Is it because you think it was undignified of a man of his age/rank in Starfleet to behave that way? I thought it was great! So many complain about how stiff he is but when he loosens up and lets loose a bit there are still complaints. My husband is going to be 51 this year and if he still had his quad he’d be doing that. I’ll mourn on the day that he loses that part of him - - the part that is fun, that boyish charm. I’m glad they did that. It injected a few moments of joy into a pretty ominous-feeling story (just like the Picard/Worf duet in “Insurrection”).
Yeah, yeah, don’t think I can’t hear the groaning. Well, no one can take that away from me so I’ll continue to enjoy it. The rest of you may feel free to continue to diss it. Have at it.
I will admit that “Nemesis” was quite dark so that’s why I was glad there was a little bit of humour to lighten it a bit.
Am very glad to hear that the mood on the ST:XI set is good. Makes me all the more anxious to see the movie.
kg
Months before Nemesis was released, I read the script when it was leaked online. Seriously, I read it and thought that I would like the movie, but from day 1, I knew that a movie where the bad guy is a clone of Picard was a BAD IDEA. Imagine trying to convince your girlfriend to see Nemesis and having to explain to hear that it is about Picard versus a young clone of himself. Yeah. For the most part, I liked Nemesis but like Generations and Insurrection, at times it just felt like a big deluxe two part epidode of Next Gen.
One good thing for Nemesis: my wife (a very casual Trek fan,,, mostly sick of it from me talking about it all the time) used to hate Data for some unkown reason. After seeing Nemesis (in a packed theater) she got chocked up at his little funeral scene and after the movie said, “Okay, I really like Data now. :
I just wish Next Generation would have gotten a better send off… they derserved more….
Maybe Nemesis could be recut with some new scenes featuring Shatner as a resurrected James T Kirk?
I’ll jump on the Blame Brent Bandwagon.
Seems that Spiner and Logan shared the same agent. Spiner was able to set up a little package deal that got Logan the writing job. As mentioned here earlier Berman wouldn’t shut up about having the writer from Gladiator doing the new Trek screenplay.
Now as far as how Baird got the job, he must have been the only one home that day. I do remember an interview with Frakes where they came out and asked, “Why didn’t you direct the last film?” He replied “No one asked.”
“Hiphopjam: “Nemesis was nothing more than a good TNG episode.”
Right Hiphopjam, that was the way I felt about both Insurrection and Nemesis. As my roommate had call it, it was a “glorified” episode. I was like, “That’s it! Nemesis was a glorified episode!” My problem with TNG were the last two films, not just Nemesis. There were hardly any epic and/or life-changing events that really rolled over into the other films like Kirk and co experienced from Star Trek II - VI (i.e., Kirk’s son killed, Enterprise blown up; etc., etc.). With the last two TNG movies, everything was wrapped up tidy and one movie didn’t seem much to have any effect on the other. That’s what I enjoyed about the original movies, they seemed epic or to really have an impact on the character’s lives. Insurrection and Nemesis? Not so much.
To me, at least, that’s where TNG failed.
should keep in mind folks, nemisis was a really bad compromise which no one was particularly happy with. It originally was set to be a fans only movie, crossing into the mirror universe (or akin one, perhaps where the terran empire never fell… this was never made clear) verses an alternate picard and all that jaz.
The studio wanted this to be picard’s son he was fighting. we ended up with a mediocre mid-life crisis story (which was done in Generations already) mixed with moments of starwars ripoffs. They then brought in baird, uninspired director of such films as “executive decision.” So dont bash Logan too much - he was doing what he was told.
Besides, most of the character moments that related to the show (and the only moments that logically linked our heroes to their past experiences) were left on the cutting room floor. sigh
So blame baird, but also blame the executives at paramount that thought an easy listening song made sense to open Enterprise. was the same folks…
Baird seems to be getting the Braga and Berman bashing - ooh what a lot of B’s - coincidence?
Baird was not liked by the actors. Ridley Scott was not liked on Blade Runner and it’s a masterpiece. IF Nemisis was a success Baird would have been back.
I think there are many things to admire about insurrection. I loved the Romulan senate stuff. I quite like the Reman back story stuff and make ups. I liked the music. I liked Rom Pearlmans performance.
What it realy all comes down to in every film is story. Toy Story 1 + 2 have quite crude visuals (these days) but because the stories are great we dont mind.
Insurrection and Nemisis have great visuals but the stories are poor.
Can Trek be fixed?
Trek at the movies has always suffered from being made on the cheap, or appearing a bit cheap anyway (cheap is relative)
I think Nemesis suffered from ‘executive producers’ having too much input.
The Story should come first. Many ‘event’ pictures are anounced with a release date, and then the studio scrabbles to find a story afterwards. Having a firm release date NEVER helps, especialy if you have no story.
The director and the actors etc. are there to tell the Story as best they can.
If the ’star’ has control of the script, they will bend the story to serve thier interests at the expense of anything else. Focusing on making Picard an action hero, was way out of character and a wrong move. This can be traced back to ‘First Contact’. Although that finale was satisfying, it was very out of character for Picard the scholarly archeologist and career diplomat…
However because that was successful, that suggested a ‘popular’ direction for the character to move in. That’s how we end up with the stupid jeep segment in Nemesis…
Also ‘event’ pictures. They can’t keep saving the world, fedreation. universe every time. It’s becoming dull and predictable.
Part of the charm of Trek is that you get to know the ship and the characters. I never get that ‘familiar’ feeling from the Enterprise E. We the viewers have not spent time ‘living there’ with the crew.
There is always a new member on the bridge, usualy if they have lines they’re a goner. The ships used to work fine with the ’star’ crew. They suddenly need Mr Hawk?
The only case where this worked well was Demora Sulu, and thats because Jaqueline Kim gave such a good performance, and then she didn’t die…
There’s loads more like ‘the cinematic’ lighting they use on the ships. I mean c’mon, no one wants to live in the dark for 5 years.
Stop designing new stuff to no end - Settle on a uniform and stick with it.
Settle on some props - guns tricorders etc. and stick with it.
Explore the ship, and see some variety. Don’t just run up and down the corridors shooting.
All this and Hellboy as Shinzon’s Personal Assistant! Have to talk to HR about that one…
What’s common in “Citizen Kane” and “Superman: The Movie”? Both films’ editors have directed a Star Trek movie… The only difference is that while Robert Wise edited some films in the 1940s and then quickly became an accomplished director, Stuard Baird was good in editing (and did it for decades) but he simply cannot direct well enough (Tomb Raider?? What a cr.p that movie was!!)…
Baird did not direct Tomb Raider. He is the go to guy in Hollywood when your movie is in trouble and needs to be re-edited. That’s what he did on Tomb Raider and M:I 2. He is a fabulous editor. He cut Superman: The Movie when he was only 30 (and that was really two movies being made at once) and it earned him an Oscar nomination! Casino Royale was a brilliantly cut movie, too.
The real issue with Nemesis was the script. The characters just weren’t right. The situations weren’t right either. The jeep chase is such a clear violation of the Prime Directive, but no one bats an eye. A duplicate of Data is found and re-assembled and none of the characters ever once mention Lore. We were told Logan was a fan, so these basic questions should have been answered early on in the process.
Baird has a great sensibility for film. I’ll admit that his knowledge of Trek may not have been the greatest, but his ability to tell a story through the medium of film should never be doubted. Had the script been in better shape, it would have been a better film.
Derivative, Uninspired, Retarded, Retread.
It insulted my intelligence, kicked me in the b***s and clubbed my dignity in the middle of the night. All at the same time.
Nemesis, I spit at thee.
Nuff said.
I thought the ramming scene at the end of the movie was awesome!
The story obviously wasn’t that great but it did have some good aspects. Despite what has been said I would still choose this film over Insurrection if given the choice. Obviously First Contact is the best of the TNG films!
As for whether Baird is a good or abad director or whether he was wholly or partly responsible for the failure of the film is irrelevant. The issue is that he should have, as every director should, researched the subject matter (Star Trek) and as such should have respected the Star Trek franchise. If he was unwilling to do this then he should not have accepted the job and Paramount should not have given him the job. He failed in the job he was hired to do pure and simple!
Love the book after all. It´s great. Worf´s life being saved by a romulan doctor …
#125: “Do people still insist they like First Contact? The movie that ruined Picard and Data buy making one an unreasonable Rambo character and the other a whiny traitor. Single handedly ruined Zephram Cochran by saying a drunk hillbilly could warp physics in his shed in the middle of the woods?”
Um…just out of curiosity, did you actually *see* First Contact? The glaring inaccuracies in what you wrote in your post (Cochran’s complex was a shed in the woods? really?) tells me you either didn’t see it or weren’t paying much attention. Give it at least a rental, turns out its pretty decent.
-Why romulans and remulians don’t appear in ‘Enterprise’..?
Sela, Lore, Tal Shiar
Because the Federation saw a Romulan face to face in TOS, not before.
In one ENT chapter, appeared a Romulan ship.
Didn’t Michael Dorn also speak not too highly of the director of Nemesis? I feel I remember him saying that he told Baird, my character would never say this, and Baird responded, I don’t care.
I wish there was an all of the above choice in the poll, Baird was just a bad idea for a director, the script felt like a retread of some TNG episodes (How many times do we have to see Troi psychologically assaulted?) and sort of a retread of wrath of khan (adored character gives it all to save the ship….)
#152: Veronica, I’d forgotten about the assault on Troi… Yep, it was tasteless. Yet another rehash of things we’d seen before on the TV show. It was just bad, all the way around.
Funny thing… I’ve posted an number of times about how, and why, I’m NOT looking forward to the new Trek movie. I’m still not hot on seeing other people portray the original cast, but after reading all these posts and remembering how awful I thought Nemesis was I’m starting to realize that the Abrams take Trek probably can’t be nearly as bad!
At the very least, I give Abrams credit for meeting with the members of the original cast (which Nichelle Nichols mentioned in the interview) to get their take on things. It sounds like he’s at least trying to do right by the original series.
Maybe it won’t be so bad, if I can just get past my reluctance to see other people playing the beloved characters. I’m just not sure about this Pine kid as Kirk… We’ll see. Abrams and Lindelof created LOST, my new favorite show ever (replacing DS9, which is now my #2 all time fave)… I guess I can give them the benefit of the doubt.
#105: The reason people consider Nemesis a bomb? That’s simple… It bombed! I don’t have numbers at my fingertips, but Nemesis was easily the lowest grossing of all of the Trek movies, including the universally panned ST 5. In fact, IIRC, even if you don’t adjust for inflation ST 5 still beat out Nemesis dollar for dollar. If I’m wrong about that someone correct me, but I don’t think I am.
It’s the only Trek film to not open at #1 the weekend it came out (a Jennifer Lopez film actually beat it out), and the critics weren’t terribly kind either. With a Trek film, what really matters is the fan’s opinion and how many times they’re willing to see it. As you can see here, fan opinion is pretty negative. I’m guessing most of us didn’t see it more than once (I didn’t). I don’t think it did terribly well on DVD either, but I’m not certain. At the very least, it got buried at the box office that holiday season.
#112: If Nemesis had been a hit we’d all be “singing a different tune”? But… That’s just it. It WASN’T a hit, and it never would’ve been a hit, no matter when it would’ve come out. Sure, LOTR and Harry Potter buried it, but it was still a BAD movie. It was never going to be a terribly successful movie. The Trek faithful tried it, didn’t like it, and didn’t go back. Case closed.
#95: Not sure how Baird being a great film editor makes him a great director… Frakes didn’t direct Nemesis, so we can’t blame him for that one. Insurrection wasn’t very good either, I admit. But how much of that was the direction and how much of that was a crummy script? I think Frakes did the best with what he had.
I think plenty of the blame for the Nemesis failure can be laid at the feet of the writers, not to mention Berman & Braga. So Baird’s not entirely responsible. But I think it’s true when people say Nemesis “didn’t feel like Trek.” Baird didn’t know Trek, he certainly didn’t get on well with his actors, and the movie was just dismal.
As for Frakes, give him some credit. he knows and loves Trek. He’d directed a number of wonderful TNG episodes (and later DS9, and maybe VOY too?), and of course he directed First Contact. That film wasn’t perfect, but it was easily the best of the TNG movies. And it was a fun romp as well. Insurrection just wasn’t the fun story, rooted in the TV shows, that First Contact was.
To this day, I’ll never understand how the “magic” of TNG didn’t carry over to the big screen.
i liked nemisis0- a appreciated its dark qualitiesi i liked the script- story- i think the director focussed on diferent elements in the film.
i think what really hurt it was the promotion- it is the only trek film that didnt use the enterprise and recognisable trek icons in the poster- and the trailer was so trying to be something other than trek- like they were embarassed to be making star trek and trying to trick people to come see it- cause its not like star trek its got car chases, sex and violence…
aside from tmp it is also the only preview that didnt feature the star trek theme music.
all the others were all hey its gunna be a fun rip roaring adventure with the theme fanfair reminding us of past treks.
plus being sandwitched in between big sequels didnt help.
i did feel the story was a little insuler and small- the epic elements werent the centre in with the story- more dressing i guess if im going to be critical
box office aside i liked it- saw it 8 times with all my closest friends- and i still enjoy it as it in the end is a different trek movie.
a different director wouldnt have made a huge difference- perhaps tone and some more character focus- most of which could be done in a different edit.
by the way the title of the story was misleading and worthy of Aint it cool news.
one should probably finish reading all the other posts before they write their own.
in rference to the cast gates especialy looking old- we might want to point a finger at the DP as she and marina look 10 years younger and a lot more healthy in person- although considering what troi went through in the script it would be in character to look terrible in some of the scenes.
it is sad that a film is judged by its box office if Nemisis did make more money people would be more positive.
it is so much easyer to jump on the band wagon and be negative- its far harder to stand up and support something- to say what u like and risk people tearing u down.
there are plenty of films now considered art/classics that didnt do big box office.
I see Nemesis as a film that simply didn’t live up to its potential. I think the script needed more work and a director who understands Star Trek is always essential. I also think the Paramount was supremely stupid in opening the movie against Lord of the Rings. The ‘bump-off’ of Data was sad but probably necessary since Brent Spiner is showing his age and Data doesn’t age. That said, the B4 subplot (suck-plot) was lame. So was that whole ‘Argo’ thing. Just a chance for Stewart to go off-roading.
On the other hand, I loved the wedding reception (bout time those two tied the knot), the character interplay on the bridge early in the film (Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll be in the gym), and the final space battle.
I have stated this a couple of times, but I always felt that if Data was to die in a TNG film then it should have been due to actions of Lore. The Data-Lore storyline never felt fully resolved during the series (at least to me) and I would have prefered a more emotional conclusion to that subplot.
#9—–You hit it right on the head. Baird may very well have been a poor choice as a director, but people were not paying to see this movie anyway. I know I didn’t. Granted, I wasn’t much of a TNG fan to begin with, but I barely noticed that it was in the theater at all. I certainly wasn’t shocked that it tanked.
As I understand it, even “The Great Trek Turd”—-also known as STV, whipped NEM at the box office. Now maybe that was due to the popularity of its immediate predecessor (TVY), and the TNG guys weren’t exactly coming off of a booming success (INS), but still….
Even the best of the TNG-era films, FC, was an average movie. TWOK it was not…However, at least FC was better than STV.
I think if they’d just tried to stay more “in house” they would have had a bigger success. Some times, seriously, I think if Trek fans were writing the scripts, or minding what’s ‘canon,’ things would be a lot more smooth and/or well done. If Frakes had been able to direct, for example, on Nemesis, and if they’d had a slightly (more than slightly, probably) story, I think Nemesis would have been/could have been better. The whole ‘Picard’s clone’ thing and the Reman angle…they didn’t work for me, personally. I’m a Trek whore, so anything, frankly, will wet my whistle…but it coulda been better, yeah.
#134
I can tell you why I didn’t like the Dunebuggy scene, Katie.
It demonstrated a complete lack of understanding for the nature of the character by the writer & the director. Not that it was the first instance in the films of a writing decision that altered a character significantly from their TNG-roots.
That kind of retroactive character revision was present right from Generations, with scenes like the one between Geordi & Data, where the latter decides he’s going to put in the emotion chip because he failed to get a punchline. That scene is so poorly conceived, it was hard for me to believe it was written by the same people who had been there for the character’s development over the past 7 years. Hell, Braga had written ‘Descent’, which featured a similar scene between G&D, albeit with their roles reversed - Geordi thinks Data should use the emotion chip; Data thinks it’s far too dangerous - and now he’s writing a scene where Data’s ready to plop that baby in because he didn’t understand why pushing Worf in the ocean was funny. Huh?
Getting back to the Dunebuggy…
The problem with the scene isn’t Picard letting down his hair (har har) - it’s that he’s taking a pleasure trip on a pre-warp planet presumeably protected by the Prime Directive (a principle he was ready to give his life for in the previous film). Every time we saw Picard dealing with a similar civilization, he used the utmost caution to prevent any contamination of the native culture. I consider that a critical element of his character. This movie rolls along, and suddenly he’s throwing caution to the wind & racing around like a teenager with his dad’s convertible. It wasn’t Picard being fun, it was Picard being careless & stupid. Those qualities are so antithetical to who he is that the scene should have been laughed out of the writer’s room.
It’s not that the movie didn’t need some humor, as it was quite dark. But at the same time, it needed well-written humor. Picard is funniest when put in an uncomfortable situation - think of the ending scene in ‘Menage A Trois’ when he’s forced to convince the Ferengi Captain of how much he loves Lawaxana. It’s hilarious not only because it’s so out-of-character for Picard to show that kind of emotion in front of his crew, but because by the end he’s really lost himself in the moment. He’s immersed himself so much in the performance that he’s managed to be TOO convincing, much to his chagrin.
If the dunebuggy scene had been written in a way that was consistent with the characters like the example above, I wouldn’t have had a problem with it. As it is, it’s just another scene in a long list that demonstrated nothing but a lack of respect and understanding for characters that deserved much better.
Someone should tell Burton that the best writer & director can’t make Georgi an interesting character! One of the few things NEM has going for it is LeVar’s minimal screen time. He was a one of the worst asspects of TNG, Barclay would have made a much more interesting & rounded character as Chief Engineer—-and would have treated Scotty with respect in Relics.
On the other had, Nichols is a class act & I’m very happy Abrams is at least treating some of the TOS actors with respect.
I don’t hate “Nemesis”, I might even like it more than “Insurrection”, but it is very far from a great movie, and it is inexplicable than in the four years since “Insurrection”, that was the best story B&B could come up with.
What changes to make?
- Get rid of the Nosferatu-like Remans. The Romulans are a perfectly good enemy already, we don’t need the damned Remans. Just make it a pro-war movement in the Romulan senate.
- Add a nice space battle between Starfleet and the renegade Romulan fleet culminating in the Enterprise going alone after Shinzon’s ship. And no Troi ESP phaser targetting, please.
- Get rid of the B4 storyline. This was probably added to appease Brent Spiner, but it was a horrible way to do it.
- Without Spiner in dual roles as Data and B4, there is now opportunity to use Patrick Stewart in dual roles as Picard and Shinzon. Shinzon’s a clone so he should actually look like Picard, right? Not a young, bald man when Picard wasn’t even bald at that age…
- Kill off Data if you must. But instead of the silly B4, how about Geordi download’s Data’s memory into the Enterprise-E computer system instead? We already saw Data try to merge with the ship’s computer once. In the re-write, Data saves Picard on Shinzon’s ship and just before he “dies”, he uploads himself into some new interface we see he and Geordi playing with earlier in the movie. A lot like Spock’s “Remember…”, sure, but this opens up the possibility of Spiner lending his voice as Data in the next movie, or introducing a new actor to play “Data 2″ that Geordi & Co. build from Soong’s old plans for Data and Data’s old plans for Lal.
NEMESIS WAS GARBAGE FROM THE BEGINNING. IT WAS A LOUSY STORY THAT WOULDN’T EVEN CUT IT AS A TV EPISODE. I CAN’T BELEIVE THAT WAS THE BEST THEY COULD COME UP WITH ESPECIALLY WITH ALL THE TIME THEY HAD. OF COURSE, CONSIDERING WHO WAS RUNNING THINGS AND THEIR TRACK RECORD, I REALLY SHOULDN’T BE SURPRISED.
ASSIGNED A DIRECTOR WITH NO EXPERIENCE AS A FAVOR, WHAT KIND OF B.S. TREATMENT IS THAT FOR MAJOR FRANCHISE?
#165 - He’s a clone that is suffering from problems due to the whole sped-up-growth mess - who knows if he lost hair as a result of that? Besides, Patrick Stewart probably *was* nearly bald at that age, anyway. =p
I really liked Tom Hardy as Shinzon - it would have been far more interesting had the clone part been a subplot and the major point been - OMG! The Troglytes are trying to take their rightful place on Stratos and have a big nasty weapon on their side! Um, I mean the Remeans making a play for their rightful place on Romulus? Then the reveal…oh snap! Their leader kinda looks like the captain. What the hey? (I actually like the Romulus/Remus thing since it goes back to the cheesy naming thing they used to do in TOS. Jeez, though, would someone get the darn ridges off of their faces? I hated that TNG “let’s update their look by adding forehead ridges!” idea.) If Picard tried to weaken Shinzon by bringing out his “good” side, in the usual captain strategy way, it would have been much more believable and enjoyable rather than yet another Picard breakdown.
No matter how bad a director screws up, their work is based heavily on what they’re given - the script - which was definitely crap.
#167
Unfortunately, we already saw young Picard with a full head of hair in ‘Tapestry’, then this movie features a picture of Picard with no hair at an even younger age to tie him in with Shinzon’s appearance. Sadly, it’s just a major gaffe on the producer’s part.
ALL of the Next Generation movies were CRAP. They were all overly-long two-hour boring TV episidoes. I have no respect for the Next Generation cast when they try and blame one person for what is obviously a collective failure. Paramount actually made a good move by trying to bring in fresh blood and make a movie that would try to appeal to more than just the hard fans. it’s too bad it didn’t work out. Here’s looking forward to a fresh start with the new Movie.
”
Derivative, Uninspired, Retarded, Retread.
It insulted my intelligence, kicked me in the b***s and clubbed my dignity in the middle of the night. All at the same time.
Nemesis, I spit at thee.
Nuff said.”
*Laughing insanely* BWAHAHAHHA!!! OMG!!! TFF!!!
You guys are really cracking me up today!
NEM should have jettisoned those two old crones Crusher & Troi and had Seven of Nine as part of the bridge crew. Nothing drags action down more than a couple of grannies. Unlike those two, Seven doesn’t need the Briar Patch to be firm!
#164–I don’t recall any of the TOS actors being treated with anything but respect by Abrams and co. I’m n