Abrams: We Had A Scene For Shatner [UPDATED] September 8, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Abrams, Shatner, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
Today the latest wrinkle in the never-ending ‘Shatner in Star Trek‘ saga has been revealed. In a new interview with AMC, Star Trek director JJ Abrams reveals that there was a ‘flashback’ scene written for Shatner, but it "didn’t feel right." Abrams also talked more about his approach to fan feedback.
Abrams on Shatner’s scene that never was
We actually had written a scene with him in it that was a flashback kind of thing, but the truth is, it didn’t quite feel right. The bigger thing was that he was very vocal that he didn’t want to do a cameo. We tried desperately to put him in the movie, but he was making it very clear that he wanted the movie to focus on him significantly, which, frankly, he deserves. The truth is, the story that we were telling required a certain adherence to the Trek canon and consistency of storytelling. It’s funny — a lot of the people who were proclaiming that he must be in this movie were the same people saying it must adhere to canon. Well, his character died on screen. Maybe a smarter group of filmmakers could have figured out how to resolve that.
UPDATE: Not a flashback?
In the comments section below, Star Trek co-writer Roberto Orci elaborated on the Shatner scene:
Alex [Kurtzman] and I did indeed come up with a sequence for Shatner that we wrote before the strike, although technically it wasn’t a flashback.
Orci also promised he would ‘post the sequence in question,’ but only after the movie comes out.
Abrams on fan feedback
Abrams also talked to AMC about how he factors in fan input on the Internet
With Star Trek, the audience point of view is very important to me. And you just have to think, "Well I hope I don’t suck." A lot of times people say that they want certain things and they really don’t — they say they want all the answers up front, but then they don’t. Ultimately you can’t write a story or come up with an outline or direct a scene only thinking, "I think this is what they’re going to want." Then there’s no point of view.
Goto AMC’s SciFi Scanner Blog for much more on Trek and Fringe.
Comments»
It’s about time that J.J. addressed that Shatner stuff more directly! First?
would be cool if shatner was in the movie.but im in either way
As much as I hate to say it, Mr. Shatner talked himself out of this movie. I would love to see him again, but he’s had a long and storied career in the Star Trek Universe. Let’s see what his successor has to bring to the part.
Scotty thought Kirk was alive when Picard’s Enterprise rescued him from the Dyson Sphere. There’s your loophole JJ. Run with it.
If Scotty thought Kirk was alive, then he might have been SOMEHOW. Sheesh.
Nice to know that he wanted Shatner in his movie.
the real issue should be… is HARRY MUDD in this movie????
Well this should start an interesting conversation. Shatner wanted more involvement in this film, and it knocked him out of the film. Didn’t something similar happen with him in Enterprise? Well I’m happy it was considered. Shouldn’t be considering what could’ve been when nothing “has been” yet. Maybe this issue could be revisited after the movie comes out, if it’s worth it.
I haven’t been one of the ones saying he MUST be in this movie but canon or not if they wanted to get him in they could have found a way. This is sci-fi.
Forget writing Shatner’s Captain Kirk into the film. It would have been interesting if Shatner could have played a descendant of Denny Crane as an instructor at the Academy… The real question is, would he teach law or target practice?
I hope this issue is never spoken of again. Shatner’s not in it. It’s over. I like Shatner, really, but he is a huge ego. I’m sure he wouldn’t do it unless it was totally about him and he was THE star of the movie.
Frankly, I wish it were a totally new story, not using any of the original actors. Nothing against Nimoy…he’s great…but it seems to me that they might be using him (or “old Spock”) as a crutch.
My 2 cents.
Shat in a flashback? Damn sloppy that would not work! A cameo at the end is the only option!
…the adventure continues…
This is the ONLY WAY that Kirk could have been brought back. And, it would make a mighty fine movie:
Rand awakens in her cabin and hears the sonic shower. She goes to see who’s in there, when Kirk suddenly appears! We now learn that Spock is a evil dilithium crystal baron, McCoy lives on a cul-de-sac called Seaview Circle, and Scotty fights crime and can breath underwater. Guianan, sensing that something is terribly wrong with the space/time continuum, tracks down Dr. Richard Daystrom, and together they transmorphorate a DeLorean DMC-12 into a time machine and travel back to set things straight!
Being from Wisconsin, the only other thing getting more press than the “Shatner in the film issue” was Favre leaving the Packers! If I can handle seeing Favre in a Jets uniform, you all can all handle Shatner not being in the film. Life goes on….. : (
another movie could be filmed in flash forward from Pine to Shatner……
I think someone’s EGO got in the way….He really had a chance to pass the torch properly but get a few Emmy nominations and boy, did he blow it…I have no compassion for Mr. Shatner on this from what we have heard…He should have been graceful enough to accept whatever JJ and his team had come up with if he was truly in it for the art and not the paycheck….I mean, come on…how much more money do you need when you are in your 70’s….
“I hope this issue is never spoken of again. Shatner’s not in it. It’s over”
Thank you, this is been talked about to death and to shoehorn the Shat into the move is the fanboy wet dream but not so good for NEW viewers who need a fresh start. If you want Trek to survive then it has to grow and be fresh…….
Darth “craptastic” Ballz
4. Scotty may have been suffering some memory loss from being stuck in a transporter loop for 75 years. I’m usually a bit foggy after waking up from a single night’s sleep. Wait a minute. What? Kirk is dead? ;-)
16. how much more money do you need when you are in your 70’s….
errr, maybe 30 years worth??
I kind of agree with richpit (#11) in relation to using Nimoy’s Spock as a “crutch” (I think you put it more eloquantly than I could have), but if the writing’s solid enough, it’s not going to seem too contrived. Having both Kirk and Spock in there… it would defeat the purpose of having a new crew at all really. I don’t regret Shatner not being in this movie. Nor do I regret Abrams’ dealing with not releasing the details. It adds to the anticipation as far as I’m concerned. If the director has paid as much attention to making an amazing film as he has done in keeping things secret, then we’ve got a VERY good move on our hands and one worthy of reigniting the Star Trek franchise.
Flashback forget it. I want the Generations death reversed. I’m glad he’s not in it now. I say throw out the cannon & create an alternate timeline.
Is it Cannon? Is it a Reboot? Is it both? What’s the deal here?
I don’t blame Shatner for wanting a bigger role. I also don’t blame JJ for not finding a way to get him in the story while keeping it a good and believable story. It’s all just disappointing. I would’ve loved to see Nimoy and Shatner on screen together again, they aren’t getting any younger.
More like a flash forward scene…to the 24th century.
So, we get more tid bits from our Trek savior the great J.J. Abrams.
But for newcomers interested in how things might play out in Trek XI,
I laid out my own plot summary on what I’d expect to see. It received some good reviews around here. AND, it included ALL the original actors in a nice, easily understood, closing scene.
Now, I have been asked not to post my synopsis again here (wink, wink.)
But, if your interested in reading my vision of Trek XI’s stoyline, then just Google ‘TrekMadeMeWonder.’ The three page description is intended only for those in need of a TREK fix. Who votes that I should go book form with the plot as a X-mas present to you all?
My guess is that Shatner will be in the next flick. He’s just holding out for more $s. I think he deserves it!!! Especially after watching the ‘Ultimate Computer’ last night. What was that? Three speeches in one episode? The first speech, ‘All I ask is A Tall Ship,’ was great! Perfectly acted in my book. It also reminded me of Shatner’s 70s singing performances.
Kudos Bill!
I go an extra 4 mil for the big boy.
A smarter group of film makers could definitely have figured it out. They could have also figure out what a phaser, a tricorder, or Uhura’s ear piece looked like… you know, because they paid attention to that which they should have paid attention to…
Everything is very good. The problem is:
Where is that damn trailler we’re all dying to see?
JJ is making this waiting deliberately hard for us die hard fans
Relics was on recently during sci fi channel marathon, bringing up the whole Scotty remembering Kirk’s death memory, my theory is while there was virtually no signal degredation of Scotty’s pattern, there was some and clearly the part of the pattern that was lost was his memory of Kirk’s death on the Enterprise -B.
Or as Jimmy himself said at a convention in response to an over zealous fan when asked “In Star Trek The Next Generation: Relics you awoke from the transporter whith no knowledge of Jim Kirk’s death yet in the movie Star Trek Generations you witnissed this, please explain this discrepancy…”
To which Jimmy replied “…..Picky, Picky, Picky”
Alex and I did indeed come up with a sequence for Shatner that we wrote before the strike, although technically it wasn’t a flashback.
To which Jimmy replied “…Picky, picky, picky.”
I love that. Especially when having to deal with a fairly difficult question.
I’m willing to take J.J.’s word that they had a scene in mind for Shatner but ultimately he didn’t take it. I don’t think it’s a put-on, I don’t feel like I’m being lied to, I think it’s the truth.
Of course, this story will do NOTHING to calm the belief that Shatner’s still in the movie.
I know what it was.
SPOILER
Shatner was scene in a 23rd century Priceline commercial!
Elaborate please Bob
31
After the movie, I’ll post the sequence in question…
“31. Fatman Bruno - September 8, 2008
Elaborate please Bob”
I second that motion!
*Please!
One thing I don’t understand, if the story deals with alternate realities/timelines shouldn’t that open the door to Kirk being alive in some way?
Thanks for the information! If Shatner wanted more than a cameo then it was never meant to be. Like JJ said, his character died on screen. Time for us to move on. I’m gonna take Kevin Smith and Wil Wheaton’s word for it and expect this new Trek movie to be great.
Why does none of this surprise me? Shatner egotistical - never LOL!! Hope Chris Pine is of a different breed so I can start to like the character of Kirk again. Shatner’s ego started to degrade my ability to like the character of Kirk.
I’m glad those involved had the guts to stand up to the egotiscal spoiled brat and say no. Besides, Pine is better-looking than Shatner was in the role. I want Kirk, not Shatner back on the screen.
Ouch….
“After the movie, I’ll post the sequence in question…”
Bad enough we’re on tenderhooks until May for the film, now we have to wait for the post-movie-pre-script-proto-spoiler? I’m getting a nosebleed.
I’m just glad that all the talk of trying to get his Shatnerness in wasn’t in fact just talk and that the deciding factor was being true to the film.
I can live with that quite happily.
“Technically it wasn’t a flasback”?!! Mr Orci sure knows how to tease the fans! I would love to know what this scene was but somehow I think I will have to wait until after the movie is released to find out! Still it makes a pleasant change to have a Star Trek production thats entire plot has not been leaked all over the internet! I can’t wait to see this movie and I just hope that when it is released I can go into it unspoilt!
Ha! Finally, the truth, and it’s much what some of us had suspected!
the loophole needed to bring shatner’s kirk back isn’t scotty having thought kirk was alive but in generations, picard initially failed at stopping soran from destroying the Veridian star, which sucked picard into the nexus where he brought kirk out onto Veridian III BEFORE picards failure which means the second time around there shouldve been kirk, soran and 2 PICARDS on Veridian 3…
JJ! Dying for a new trailer! Give us something! Please!
Kirk’s death in Generations is filled with problems anyways. If he died within the Nexus, can’t you just got back to another point an rescue him? Sigh, the Nexus and Generations as a movie remains a huge problem within Star Trek. A piss poor attempt to bring both captains together for a movie with one cause…..to make money.
You know, it’s Janeway’s fault that the entire Star Trek universe will be reset to before the beginning of the original series. The universe was hunky-dory, but Janeway wasn’t happy and went back to bring the ship home early. That caused Mr. Nero to develop his time machine and cause the REBOOT! Aha! Logic!
Sorry it didn’t work out, Bob. I got a feeling you really wanted that sequence in as much as some of us did.
Considering that Shatner and Co. launched DesiLu succesfully (and which later became Paramount,) I think he deserves a pass on
any disputes. Make it work guys! You ony have one shot at this one.
And by the way. Does’nt a NO KIRK movie mean Nimoy’s appearance
will be (to a degree) uninspired? Being that Spock and Kirk were such close friends.
Also, drop the ‘TIme Ship’ idea please.
Where did that come from anyhow?
27. Captain Scokirk - September 8, 2008
Great comment! Only here can you ever learn such things.
Good luck with this movie Boborci. I hope the buzz for this project doesn’t peak too soon, given the pushed back release date.
Abrams said it was a flashback, Orci says it wasn’t? Interesting how two of the main players differ in viewpoints.
I do have to say that imho, there is a certain cowardice with the current ST regime with Bill Shatner. The regime blames a video clip where Shatner says “I don’t do cameos” but was it not the regime that leaked the word “cameo” to the press and was not the video about the reaction to a press article?
Also did the regime ever really contact Shatner to see if he was interested or was it convenient that the video clip was out there? I don’t think they did - instead they just used the clip as an excuse. Just seems like they took the coward’s way out of this to save face.
Abrams is absolutely awesome. He beats both the Shat (regarding not wanting to do a cameo) and the Shat-entusiasts (regarding Trek canon) with their own weapons In one abstract. He doesn’t even blame anyone. He just gives you the feeling that what they did is absolutely right.
No matter if you like him or not, but he definitely knows how to talk…
45 - ??? Man, I hope you are joking about Desilu and Paramount.
Sounds about like what I’ve been saying all along…
Hey, if it wasn’t going to work, it wasn’t going to work. Sure I would have loved to see him in the film, but not at the expense of the film itself. I want a great story, thoughtful writing, a bit of drama and a bit of humor, tons of action and the feeling like i got my money’s worth at the end of the film. I’m not giving any of that up for 3 minutes of William Shatner just to satiate some “purists” need to mentally hump his image one more time. I want a good Star Trek film, not a good Shatner film.
An easy way to fit him in would have been for the Nexus Kirk to have survived. Don’t count Shatner out of the franchise just yet, however, as was said earlier he may still appear in a future film with a larger role.
Star Trek was right there when Desilu was selling assets to Parmount Television (Sorry,not Parmount Studios.) It was my understanding that Trek was a big part of the deal.
I certainly was not watching for Lucy.
Like the Romulan said in ST6, “I don’t know who to believe.” I think they could have found a way, but this is an old horse. Still think that if the movie is about knocking off Kirk family members, and/or Kirk, not having Shatner is problematic. And if the timeline is altered anything could happen. That’s all want to write on this, it’s tired now.
I still say these guys (and that would include you Bob) have an understanding of what makes a good movie that the makers of the last movies didn’t, or least largely forgot about. Case in point:
JJ: “Ultimately you can’t write a story or come up with an outline or direct a scene only thinking, “I think this is what they’re going to want.” Then there’s no point of view.”
That’s EXACTLY why the last 2 movies were falling flat. Berman himself said Insurrection was supposed to be like IV and Nemesis was supposed to be like II because those two were the most critically acclaimed (read: $$$).
Is it just me, or did J.J. sound a little frazzled and/or frustrated in those quotes? He usually comes off as a positive and energetic guy, but those quotes make him sound like he’s a bit tired, unappreciated or ??? Maybe because of all the fussing from various fans, who knows…?
Anyway, canon or not, Shatner or not, I am going to view this movie with an open mind and I’m sure I’ll enjoy it. If not, it wouldn’t be the first time I wasted $12/$15/$20 on a movie… :P
I’d like Kirk/Pine to be walking by a mirror eating a cheeseburger and out of the corner of his eye, for half a second, he sees Kirk/Shatner. Pine does a double take; Shatner’s gone. Pine puts down the cheeseburger and keeps walking. That’s not too much to ask, is it?
Some people have different definitions of “flashback.” If the writers show an earlier era than the main one in which the creative work is taking place, that isn’t necessarily a flashback. For example, “Generations” took place mostly in the 24th century, but we saw extensive scenes taking place in the 23d century. That wasn’t a flashback. A flashback is when a character tells other characters about something that happened in the past, and then your viewing of it is essentially the character’s telling of it. For example, in “Workforce Part I” (Voyager), which I happened to see recently, Chakotay, Kim, and Neelix return to Voyager from an away mission to find the ship empty except for the Doctor. The Doctor begins to explain what happened while they were gone, and then instead of exposition, you get to see it acted out. So the new Star Trek film could have showed a flashback — perhaps Spock telling someone about, or just thinking about, an encounter he had with Kirk, obviously some time before he “died” on the Enterprise-B — or they could have showed Kirk doing something prior to the events of “Generations” (something relevant to the plot, one hopes) with a helpful “2292″ (or whatever) supered on the screen, and then a “78 years later” kinda thing as they did in Generations.
I hope they can bring Shatner back before the movie is released. I know he has an ego the size of the alpha quadrant and doesn’t want to do a cameo, but sometimes you gotta swallow your pride and do the right thing (for the fans). If Captain Kirk can make peace with the Klingons, than surly JJ and Shatner can find a way to bring some resolution to this dilemma!
Who cares about cannon, it’s a reboot. They can flush everything that was before right down the toilet as far as I’m concerned and start over… I just want the Shat in the flick as old Captain Kirk one last time!!!
Still, if Nero wanted to knock off Kirk to help the Romulan empire, wouldn’t it have been easier to time travel back to NCC-1701 during ‘Balance of Terror’ flip a switch, and watch the whole ship go up in the biggest ball of fire. Instead of going back to Kirk’s youth on Earth and trying to kill him as a kid or at Starfleet academy?
#13: “Rand awakens in her cabin and hears the sonic shower. She goes to see who’s in there, when Kirk suddenly appears!”
During Voyager’s run, I followed discussions about it on Usenet. Apparently at one point there were rumors that Shatner was going to make an appearance. Immediately the condemnation began — “There’s no way it could be done believably within canon.” I said, “Well, there is one way. Janeway could find herself in a situation where she needs the advice of a specific former starship captain, so she goes to the holodeck and summons up the image of James T. Kirk.” Someone posted, “That could work. But how would they explain that it’s the old, fat, bald Shatner — instead of the young, fat, bald Shatner?”
Even if Shatner is not in the movie, the Kirk character may still be given a better ending.
I still wish they could find a way to put Shatner in the end of the film. I guess it was his greed that kept him out of the film. It hurts the film, Shatner and most of all the fans.
@32 Boborci
“After the movie, I’ll post the sequence in question…”
Excellent! Thank you sir!
My money is on the scene being Spock returning to his timeline to find Kirk alive!
Anthony time for another poll with worthy scenarios for this scene!
…the adventure continues…
61. John from Cincinnati
That’s the problem with time travel plotlines.
It will never make sense and I think questions along these lines will NEVER be fully answered or understood by any of us.
Scrap the Time Ship!!!
I keep hearing “alternate time line” brought up. Has this been established? I did not think the details of the movie had been revealed. Everyone keeps talking about Shatner appearing because of this but if it is not a part of the plot, then he is dead and gone…..and please do not bring the Nexus into this….If you do then anything is possible and that really is no fun…In my earlier post, I did get a little harsh on Bill and his Ego…I really think it boils down to making the movie work and to try and not violate a huge peice of canon….Thanks to JJ and his team for working so hard to bring Star Trek back into our lives…we have many years to discuss the details of the movie and wrangle over what was right/wrong, canon/non canon…just like we do now about all the other movies…Thank goodness we will have something new to discuss….
John from Cincinnati>
Hey, I’m in Cincy too! Nice to see a fellow Trek fan in town…shoot me an-email sometime!
thepowersword@hotmail.com
Someone said this earlier, and I agree… Bill Shatner talked himself out of the movie saying he wanted a substantial part and no cameo. It’s too bad that the scene that was written for him wasn’t shot. Would have been nice to see Shatner as Kirk again. BUT… not having him in the movie won’t deter me from seeing this movie a few times. I am really looking forward to what JJ and Bob and Alex come up with the new Trek.
Bob… thanks for at least considering a part for Shatner at one point. I think the Trek universe is in good hands with you guys at the helm. I’m 41 and am not worried i the slightest about minor changes with uniforms or anything that will bring TOS into this era.
For what it’s worth:
I’d rather have a great movie without Shatner, than a so-so one with him. If it doesn’t work, well . . . a wise man once said “The needs of the many . . . “
#42 Joel
I totally agree, apparently within the Nexus you can go anywhere, to any time. Why the hell did he not go all the way back to the armagosa observatory and once they rescue Soran they just throw him straight in the Brig. Better still they can go over before the observatory is attacked they can save all the people who died in the Romulan attack. That way the Enterpise - D isn’t destroyed and Kirk is still alive within the Nexus.
The past is past but it just shows huge storyline issues with the film, I liked Generations when i watched the first few times but then thought about it more and i now rate it worse than Nemesis.
this comment by JJ is direct contrast to shatners ‘i know nothing’ stance. this was an opportunity to clarify the situation but it doesnt quite do it im afraid.
#69 i dont think that a brief flashback cameo by anyone would have made this movie ’so so’ -least of all mr shatner.
Greg
UK
I still say that Bill’s book, “The Return” should be made into a film. It was so well written.
#71: “this comment by JJ is direct contrast to shatners ‘i know nothing’ stance. this was an opportunity to clarify the situation but it doesnt quite do it im afraid.”
It clarifies the situation as much as possible without one of the producers asserting that Shatner’s recollection is…inaccurate. That wouldn’t make anyone happy. ;-)
32. Boborci
“After the movie, I’ll post the sequence in question…”
Was it a speaking role?
I would have considered a a nice long winded speech that summarized what a committed friendship Kirk and Spock share, what friends do for each other, I general, everything that Spock had just accomplished in the new movie. That could be funny.
Then we would all be sharing an inside joke on Kirk.
One that Kirk would/could not ever realize in this movie.
At least until Spock tells him.
Too bad the scene couldn’t wind up in the deleted scenes on the DVD.
Hmmm underlying theme is, “Shatner wanted to be in the spotlight”. Maybe if he was a bit more humble, they could have made it work.
#72
The Reeves-Stevens’ will be pleased to hear that. I don’t think it would be that great of a movie, though. Anything that references Generations and the misguided notion that we needed to have Kirk die in the first place is bad, bad, bad.
Anyway, I hear that Shatner is in the movie playing a character named Timmy. He and Leonard fought over the part.
What I don’t get is why Shatner can’t recall a thing about any of this.
They shoud have had a scene with young Kirk meeting old Kirk. Maybe then young Kirk would decide to lay off the Romulan dough nuts and stay in better shape.
78. Xai
Even Shatner has spin control.
It’s for the money fellas. Sad but probably true. And can we blame him?
Do you blame Shatner? I sure don’t.
How much would you ask if you were in his shoes?
Realistically.
If I were Shatner, I’d go as high as 4-5 mil.
I think that J.J. is wrong to stress the tension between canon and putting Shatner in this film. In a film concerning time-lines, it is very easy to resurrect Kirk. Kirk’s death is not defined in canon as final and irreversible. And, of course, that a character dies, does not, in itself, mean that he must stay dead—especially not in science fiction. By this reasoning, we must conclude that Nimoy ought not to have appeared in ‘The Search for Spock’: his character died in ‘The Wrath of Khan’; and we must respect canon!
The important point is that Shatner, by all accounts, cannot have any kind of role in this film which would interest him. Therefore, Shatner cannot be in this film. Unless some, or all, of these facts change, that really is the end of the story. I have moved on, now. And I hope others have, too. If not, re-watch ‘The Undiscovered Country’, which was a fitting ending to Kirk’s story.
Hear ye, hear ye, all Trekkies and Trekkers:
Even though we may not agree with the decision of the powers that be for Killing Kirk and even William Shatner for taking part in Star Trek Generations, hence killing Kirk on screen for all of our hu-mon eye-balls to see, having Kirk resurrected in this new film would in essence make it a sequel to Generations. That movie came out nearly 15 years ago, basically forgotten by the masses, believe it or not, and this new film needs to stand alone as a new creation for the most part. I hope no specific references are made to it or any other previous film, as it would cheapen the experience for me. If older Spock vaguely mentions something about a past event in his life, then to me that would be exceptable exposition that the hardcore audience gets, but still would make sense to the general audience as if it’s an old “war story” to explain a situation, or moral, to the young Spock or crew. To me that would keep it in line without having any kitsch, as was esplained by JJ at one time before.
That is my honest opinion of the matter.
Nice point about Generations, AdamTrek.
But it could be easily explained to the general audience in one line from Spock. Regardless of whether it is a voice over or actual spoken word. Spock could let us know that he intends save his friend. No explaination needed from anyone, or any other movie, to the general audience.
But at the same time it would heal alot of angst in the Trek universe.
In brief, Spocks actions in the past change the future. No extra literal explaination is needed.
But then maybe the studio is looking to replace all of us Shatner-Kirk fans too? Yikes!
Hi Sallah, will do.
Can’t everyone see this is all of us fanboys trying to get the plot out of Abrams and Orci? Come on guys, just a hint?
Shatner is not very good at being subtle.
When he kept going on and on about about “not doing cameo’s” and “being worth the money” you didn’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what was going on.
Shatner’s ego combined with his desire to be paid was his undoing here. It’s too bad that both sides couldn’t get it together and give the fans one last chance to see Shatner and Nimoy together again.
That said I still hope that Kirk is given a better ending.
The problem with making Shatner a bigger part of the next movie is that like Star Trek 3, it would take a whole movie to do justice to bringing Kirk back.
And that is not what the purpose of the ST XI is about.
@66 - read the posts, check out the video interview clip from the FoxMovieChannel with the writers, etc. Its obvious that there is an alternate time line. Makes sense dramatically if nothing else.
BONK!! BONK!! On the head of Mr. Lovie-Dovie if he does tell us why!
BONK!! BONK!!
TELL ‘EM JIM!!!
TELL ‘EM JIM!!!
TELL ‘EM JIM!!!
TELL ‘EM JIM!!!
I have to say Kirk’s death in Generations was the WORST! Rick Berman should’ve been fired for that alone.
#86- Thanks. I did not realize that had been established. If that is the case, then all bets are off aren’t they? Oh well, any Trek is generally better than no Trek…even if it is full of holes…that being said….I agree with you….this movie is about origins, not resurrections, and bring Kirk back ala his Generations demise would make this a sequel and that is not what is needed in my somewhat biased opinion….lol…
Jeez……I had that whole plot singularity worked out……no quantum disturbance in canon……..nobody listens to me……..*GRUMBLE*……*GROUSE*……..
80. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 8, 2008
“If I were Shatner, I’d go as high as 4-5 mil.”
It might as well be a billion now…. Looks like he priced himself out of the market and killed his signature character.
The Denny Crane idea is funny. That way, Kirk isn’t in the film, Denny is.
90 Viking.
Where did you post that?
91. Xai
So much time before premier.
But, can’t the producers just use old footage and old lines from Shatner that have been signed for already? I am sure there are some CGI artist out there that could make a convincing digital “cameo scene” work.
Re/”GENERATIONS”.
Have said it before, will say it again: the powers that be should have recognized that the script for YESTERDAY’S ENTERPRISE would be the perfect crossover vehicle for the TOS/TNG crews, and shelved it until it was movietime.
I agree with a previous post. I watched The Ultimate Computer - and I will be extremely disappointed if Shatner is not in the movie at all. I think the line about “smarter filmmakers” being able to figure it out is a pretty sorry excuse.
93. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 8, 2008
I got burned out on William Shatner when he helped kill Kirk for a paycheck. It was a needless death.
I don’t believe in shoehorning a character into a story just to satisfy fans. If this was a Kirk-centric story and Nimoy was on the outside I’d feel the same way.
I want a good Trek movie, not a profit opportunity for an actor. Kudos to JJ and the writing team for attempting to pull a Shatner out of their hat. It just wasn’t meant to be.
Not to delve into a GENERATIONS thread, but I always wondered why Picard didn’t just go back further. A few days’ time; he could have warned the observatory about the pending Romulan attack, and saved his brother and nephew from the fire. It was pretty shortsighted to just go back to the planet.
Lots of possibilities missed in that storyline, all that could have worked with the Nexus.
#94:”Have said it before, will say it again: the powers that be should have recognized that the script for YESTERDAY’S ENTERPRISE would be the perfect crossover vehicle for the TOS/TNG crews, and shelved it until it was movietime.”
You may have said it before, but it still doesn’t make any sense.
“We’re really strapped for stories, have very few scripts in preparation, and this one - ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ - promises to be really really great.”
“Oh, well then by all means let’s not produce it for our TV series.”
“Why not?”
“Well, because someday the studio might produce a Next Generation movie. We might be the producers, or it might be an entirely different group of people by then. And we - or they - might decide to do a cross-over with the original series. So of course they’ll want to base it on a script purchased years ago for a tv series that was put on the shelf and never produced.”
“Okay. When you put it like that, it makes all kinds of sense. So what do we do for a script in two weeks?”
“Well, we can either pull something out of our asses or miss an air date. Should we flip for it?”
#94
I’ve been saying that for years!
98. Dennis Bailey -
LOL
#98 “we can pull something out of our asses”
And that week’s episode would have been different HOW?
“#98 “we can pull something out of our asses”
And that week’s episode would have been different HOW?”
Well, it would have been “Tin Man” a couple of weeks early. ;-)
It’s too late now, I know, but how about this scenario:
Old Kirk and Spock of the future discover that there is plot by a Romulan to change history. So they BOTH go back in time in order to correct the situation.
At this point, the audience is somewhat confused, because isn’t Kirk supposed to be dead? To add to the mystery, the dialog between Kirk and Spock indicate that they have maintained their friendship and that it appears that Kirk never really died.
Somewhere along the way, back in the prequel era, it dawns on Kirk and Spock that Kirk is not supposed to have lived as long as he did. And that in order to “make things right,” a decision will be made that will mean Kirk will die as he originally did. The decision could be made by old Kirk or Spock, or even young Kirk or Spock, that they realize will condemn Kirk to death in the future.
So you get William Shatner alive and well as Kirk, but by the end of the movie history is corrected and old Spock goes back to the future with the knowledge that his old friend is now dead. The last scene of the movie could be Spock visiting his old friend’s gravesite.
Or perhaps, he could be at the spacedock watching the Enterprise B departing — realizing that the first time he was on that mission and had saved Kirk (but this time he stays back on purpose in order to correct the timeline).
There doesn’t need to be any rehashing of what happened with the Nexus, how Kirk died, etc. Just by the end of the movie, things are back to the way they need to be. For even non-fans, I think they could understand the concept that Kirk was supposed to have died, and they need to do something different in order to make things right. They didn’t need to see Kirk’s demise the first time in order to make sense of the plot of this story.
Yeah, it’s kind of the same rift as Yesterday’s Enterprise, or even City on the Edge of Forever, but it still could have worked with the right execution.
P.S. I think the Priceline gig went to Mr. Shatner’s head. He named his own price for a part in the movie, and the offer was refused.
96. Xai
Shoehorning?
I see Nimoy’s involvement in Trek XI as bookends to the story.
Where we were, to where we are going. I can’t see it any other way.
And without Shatner at the end, they are going to have to come up with something elase as a payoff.
I’d love to place money on the Shat and/or Kirk appearing at the end
of the pic along with Nimoy, to complete the storys’ arc.
Its gotta happen.
TrekMadeMeWonder - September 8, 2008
96. Xai
Shoehorning?
I see Nimoy’s involvement in Trek XI as bookends to the story.
Where we were, to where we are going. I can’t see it any other way.
A: Then you will be pleasantly surprised.
Surprised?
I wonder.
And, as you can probably tell, I can’t wait!
thanks for chiming in Roberto
I am disappointed that it wasn’t possible to work Mr. Shatner into the movie (for whatever reason). Those blaming on it on the actor’s ego obviously have higher ESP insight than I will ever have.
Of course I will still see the movie. However, it will not have the ‘impact’ or ‘wow’ factor it would have had if Mr. Shatner and Mr. Nimoy stood side by side on the silver screen for (possibly) one last time.
Regards.
ZOMBIE KIRK
108. Lostrod - September 8, 2008
“Those blaming on it on the actor’s ego obviously have higher ESP insight than I will ever have.”
ESP? I’m sorry, but did you read the first quote up above?
“The bigger thing was that he was very vocal that he didn’t want to do a cameo. We tried desperately to put him in the movie, but he was making it very clear that he wanted the movie to focus on him significantly…” - JJ Abrams
Sadly, for me, it feels like Paramount really killed the momentum of this movie. I truly believe it would have cleaned up during the holiday season…I was pumped for it. Just think, 3 months from now we could have been watching a new Trek movie. My heart sunk when they pushed the release up to May.
Good luck to them if they can manage the promotion for it.
I’ve lost most appreciation of Shatner after what he said about Gene. But that’s just me.
I interpret Star Trek my own way. I thought Trip dying was stupid, so in my mind, he never did. Same with Data. Heck with B4. They were just devices to bolster the show or movies rating, or in some bizarre way, make it more dramatic.
“After the movie, I’ll post the sequence in question”
That would be nice Mr. Orci.
I always love seeing deleted scenes, both filmed and not. I collect the various script versions to see the evolution of the storyline. The creative process is very interesting.
“Didn’t something similar happen with him in Enterprise?”
It wasn’t screen time (he was going to play Kirk’s father) but $$ that was the stumbling block for Enterprise according to producers in a print article. Then of course Enterprise was canceled so nothing ever got worked out.
“It’s funny — a lot of the people who were proclaiming that he must be in this movie were the same people saying it must adhere to canon. Well, his character died on screen. Maybe a smarter group of filmmakers could have figured out how to resolve that.”
I still think he’s selling himself and the writers short. They ARE a very clever group of filmmakers. And it’s Science Fiction. Anything is possible.
“With Star Trek, the audience point of view is very important to me. ”
And of course with Trek, there are a million different viewpoints. No way to please everyone. But he should know that given his experiences with his other projects — heck the Lost fandom is quite vociferous in its likes and dislikes!
Xai #96
How can you blame Shatner for taking a paycheck in Generations and not hold Nimoy to the same standards for his role in his characters death in ST II?
That said I do agree that Shatner’s large ego most likely kept him out of this film….. to this point.
Shatner wanted too much screen time for Star Trek. Trying to think of ways he could have been in the movie is moot. We know who to blame. The answer is, he could have been in the movie if he’d been willing to take a smaller role. It wasn’t the obligation of the producers to write him a big part. Just because Nimoy got one, doesn’t mean there has to be parity.
Nimoy has been second banana for decades. He deserves the top spot. I personally think his Spock is still more true to character than Shatner’s Kirk.
Please don’t flame me for this opinion, because it is just that - opinion. I don’t want to get into another juvenile shouting match. I’m too easily baited into immature histrionics.
Hahahaha they need better writers to come up with a way to bring Kirk back, alternate universes!!! Spock could have brought Kirk back from an alternate Universe where he’s old and retired who craves excitement. Then the two of them off to the adventure!!
#110 … There are oviously two schools of thought re. the question of “ego”. Some fans feel it need not have been an issue, because the role Shat was offered should’ve been as significant as Nimoy’s to begin with…
114. VOODOO - September 8, 2008
I’ve never said Nimoy was right in coming back in ST3. And read #96…I said something to that effect there.
I do think that another resurrection of a major character would not be an ideal situation.. especially after 15 years
117. Shatner_Fan_2000 -
why?
#117
There’s nothing that says parts need to be equal.
Instead of posting it here, how about you make good on your “maybe” teasing and send the scene to Shatner, ask if he’s game, then film it ;)
#118 It’s not 15 years ago. Star Trek is set in the future. None of it has happened yet :)
Star Trek’s 2 til 5 were filmed over the course of 7 years and were set over a period of months in the timeline. Many assumed Kirk to have had several more 5 year missions in the space of the movie timelines between head of Starfleet and retirement.
The timelines of filming the movies never followed the trek timeline consecutively.
I know people say “he doesn’t look like he did” but so what? They aren’t going to be showing clips of Generations to compare it to, and it doesn’t have to be in synch with his death to resurrect him. Also Frakes appeared as Riker when he was 10 years younger. The whole cast of TNG appeared in all Good things 7 years younger and looked nothing like they did back in the day especially Yar. Suspension of disbelief is key. It’s actors and actresses.
I’m also of the opinion to save Kirk’s life you don’t need Shatner. Pine could do it in older make-up. Kirk’s life is more important than Shatner’s screen time.
But they make out it’s all Shatner’s fault. It seems clear that the two parties never directly talked. I’d guess the problem was lack of communication: the cause of many problems on this planet ;)
Oh I’d like to apologise to Bob Orci, for implying in previous discussions that they had no intention of ever writing him in the script. My apologies Bob. I see that wasn’t the case. Peace and long life :)
122. dalek - September 8, 2008
“But they make out it’s all Shatner’s fault. It seems clear that the two parties never directly talked.”
They never talked directly? Where’s that from?
Oh for crying out loud already….
Enough with the cry-baby Shatner stories!!!
Hey JJ, enough with the no-info fluff pieces…….
Also posted on TrekMovie today was a story about how 42 years ago today “Star Trek” premiered on NBC.
For 42 years, Trekkers or Trekkies (or whatever we feel like calling ourselves these days) have kept this franchise alive through thick and thin, through the lean years and the “over-saturated with Star Trek” years.
The fans are the ones who have made it happen.
So, JJ…. throw us a bone already. Enough kiss-ass fluff publicity pieces…..How about some real substance—-
A REAL trailer for the film.
Some group cast photos.
Photos of the NEW Enterprise.
Photos of the NEW sets, primarily the bridge.
Photos of Mr. Nimoy in character from the new film.
Snippets of the score written by Mr. Giacchino.
And I really hope when “Star Trek XI” is released on DVD one of the Bonus Features will be a 3-hour documentary about why Shatner shouldn’t be (and isn’t) in the film.
#124 I’m referring to the implication they didn’t approach Shatner directly with the scene they wrote. Last we know, the last Shatner spoke to JJ was a phone call shortly after Nimoy was confirmed in and he was out, and Shatner apparently told JJ that he wasn’t angry like the media were making out.
That’s circa July 2007. As far as we know the two parties haven’t spoke since, possibly before Mr Orci wrote that scene.
I believe that Shatner had an exaggerated sense of his own worth to the future of the franchise, and Abrams’ explanation of these events only reinforces my opinion of why his presence in the film never actually panned out.
“We actually had written a scene with him in it that was a flashback kind of thing, but the truth is, it didn’t quite feel right. The bigger thing was that he was very vocal that he didn’t want to do a cameo. We tried desperately to put him in the movie, but he was making it very clear that he wanted the movie to focus on him significantly…”
As if that was going to aid their goal of convincing the average moviegoer that this is not the Star Trek about which they have developed such preconceived negative notions for years! Shatner just didn’t get it, IMO, or he would have been happy with the potential for any role in the film whatsoever.
There is an element of nostalgia already present in this film. His name is Leonard Nimoy. His character is not dead, and his presence in the late 24th Century makes much more sense due to the lifespan of Vulcans (or even half-Vulcans). Moreover, his presence is apparently necessary to the story, and therefore does not require sacrificing any of it.
The writers chose to tell a specific story, one which, presumably, they believed to be the best one they could think of. The fact that it did not involve a significant role for William Shatner does not surprise me one bit. Frankly, I was relieved at finding out that this film would not be hindered right off the bat by something so contrived. I thought including him in Generations was contrived, and erasing the character’s unfortunate fate in that film would be worse, IMO.
Personally, I felt that a “flashback scene” might work, but I’m not on the inside. Abrams said it didn’t, and Bob says now that it wasn’t exactly a “flashback” anyway. It will be interesting to hear what it was and determine for ourselves if it would have worked, once Bob makes it available for us (Bob is great guy!).
#117 “There’s nothing that says parts need to be equal.”
I wasn’t looking at things from a legal perspective. I’m looking at it as a fan who loves Shatner’s portrayal of Kirk. And Shatner’s Kirk partnered with Nimoy’s Spock. There are many others in that camp.
Around town you can hear a new catch-phrase used to indicate ironic appreciation: “Shatnersnotinit.”
As in: “You gotta try this dessert. Shatner’s not in it!”
I, for one, know that I will refuse to see the new movie unless JJ Abrams reanimates DeForest Kelley’s corpse for us to enjoy on the screen one last time. BRING BACK McCOY!!! BRING BACK McCOY!!! BRING BACK McCOY!!!
I wonder if there is any way to find out if the “Shatner” topic has gathered the most posts??? The subject seems to know no end…
I will always love Kirk, as played by William Shatner, and nothing will ever spoil that for me. If Mr. Shatner is a demanding actor, that’s his prerogative and none of my business. Alas, he won’t be in the new film, and, though that is a disappointment, I am still looking forward to ST XI. I truly hope this film will be the shot in the arm Star Trek needs, to make it relevant again…
Regarding the “Scotty thought Kirk was alive” problem, I’d say that maybe Scotty was a little disoriented after being pulled from that transporter beam pattern thing. Being in suspended animation for nearly a hundred years whilst technically not existing anymore might affect you that way. So the key phrase here would be that he THOUGHT Kirk was alive for a moment, but KNEW otherwise.
105. Boborci
A: Then you will be pleasantly surprised.
Wow! I think you mean it!
ARGHHHH!
I can’t wait!
Throw us another bone!
dam this is really getting to be an old conversation.
126. dalek - September 8, 2008
#124 “I’m referring to the implication they didn’t approach Shatner directly with the scene they wrote”.
Ok, where is that from? Who implied that?
125. Jackson - September 8, 2008
“For 42 years, Trekkers or Trekkies (or whatever we feel like calling ourselves these days) have kept this franchise alive through thick and thin, through the lean years and the “over-saturated with Star Trek” years.
The fans are the ones who have made it happen.”
True…up to a point.
We got our “payoff” when movies came out or we saw the weekly episode. We don’t own it.
We’ll get a peek, when we get a peek.
There are a few special souls out there who are allowed to have all the ego they can carry. The man that breathed life into the character of James T. Kirk is one of them. At LEAST Shat balances that ego with an obviously tremendous sense of fun, curiosity, and generosity. The man seems acutely aware of the cosmic joke and also that his Kirk is beloved and worshipped by a hell of a lot of people. My feeling is that his comment about a cameo comes from the knowledge that no one would be satisfied with that, at least not for very long. It would go quickly from ‘all RIGHT!!!’ to ‘why didn’t/couldn’t they give him more time on screen?’ He knows, doctor.. he knows…
Nothing tops Shat in TOS, but I don’t mind that he’s not in the movie… Now the original big E, in all its glory from the outside, they shouldn’t mess with that…
#135 … Good post!! I agree.
RE: Nimoy’s role/ not just bookends
In previous interviews with TrekMovie, both Bob and Nimoy have made it clear that his role is more than just a bookend, being described as integral to the plot of the film.
JJ probably made a smart move on this one. Slapping in a quick “flashback” just to get Shatner in there feels…cheap.
It would have been awesome to see Shatner in this movie, but Berman wouldn’t let Nimoy change the script of Generations so Nimoy chose not to get involved with that flaky project.
Blame Berman.
You have my vote of confidence, JJ.
Boborci - I think it is absolutely awesome that you choose to interact with us fans like this and make yourself so available.
Thanks for listening to us.
Dang! My post #138 was directed at 136 by NoRez, not 135!!
I’ve noticed a lot replies to this article about Kirk dying in “Generations” and a way to get around Kirk dying in this picture. I have also followed the articles about the new movie coming next May and one thing I have noticed is no one is saying of what year Spock’s (Nimoy) character is being involved in this film.
Why can’t Spock & Kirk (Nimoy & Shatner) be involved from a time period between Star Trek XI: The Undiscovered Country and Star Trek XII: Generations???
If J.J. keeps stating that the Kirk character died in Generations why didn’t he just revise the script to a time BEFORE Kirk died???
I watch “Lost” every week and everything that show throws at you to make your head spin or reach for a bottle of Asprin that J.J can’t come up with some way to resurrect James T. Kirk is pretty unbelivable if Nimoy’s appearance is susposed to be after Kirk died in “Generations”.
I have read a lot of replies to this article and some people have good, sound ways to resurrect Kirk. If the readers can do it; I don’t see why J.J. and his writers (who sell Movie & T.V. Scripts to Studios for big, big bucks) can’t do it. I have a feeling that J.J. DID NOT want Shatner in this film in anyway possible. Maybe it’s because of Shatner’s ego, Shatner wanted big bucks, Shatner wanted the new movie to focus on him, or maybe something else. I believe that J.J. could have logically put Shatner in this film if he wanted to have William Shatner involved.
Of course this is just my opinion; I could be wrong.
Perhaps I may still be spot on with my plotline synopsis.
In my treatment Nimoy/Spock has plenty of time to appear in flashback to the younger Spock, (post Kobayashi) as he recalls more and more of the mind meld, throughout. the flick.
We’ll see.
141 was right. This has been a facinating experience.
Thanks Bob!
Shats not in it, nor was he ever going to be in it; It’s my opinion this is another elaborate ploy by the Bad Robot crew to stir the pot, pull our strings, keep us all yakking…
On the brighter side, I thinking about the delayed release - Thinking back to Star Wars and first time I saw that enormous ship flying overhead; Star Wars was completed but had no or very little special effects according to LUCAS - it was all done after the fact, perhaps Bad Robot can do the same. On the other hand perhaps the rumor mill was correct and Paramount doesn’t have the $$$ at the moment, hence the delay.
141. newman - September 8, 2008
Boborci - I think it is absolutely awesome that you choose to interact with us fans like this and make yourself so available.
Thanks for listening to us.
A: Thank you for caring about Star Trek.
Bob
I know it’s a long shot for you answering this, but……
The scene written for Shatner, if not a “flashback”….tell us, would it have involved using CGI to make him appear younger than he is today……for ANY reason?
I live in the Bay Area. Someone told me there is a totally CG character on the bridge. Anyone hear anything along these lines?
Mr Arix?!
I admit that I’m one of those that all along had been hoping the denials had been a smokescreen.
It’s looking less likely that that is the case.
Since the movie deals with time travel and potential changes in the timeline, my hope was that end of the film would have Spock returning to the future (assuming he does), and old Kirk would be there waiting for him, alive and well - no convoluted explanation required.
I have little doubt the film will be great and am eargerly awaiting to see what Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman have in store for us. I had just had hoped that in addition to breathing new life into the franchise, it would have done the same for Kirk.
Everything out of the producers’ mouths simply inspires confidence that this movie is going to be great.
Quickly, someone lower my expectations!
They -certainly- know how to interact with a fandom and respect said fandom without submitting themselves to the fandom and its many silly whims. The team here is probably better at that than any other team I’m familiar with, come to think of it.
Looking forward to the bonus material post-movie. Thanks, Mr. Orci!
To all Shatner fans, relax. So he isn’t going to be in this one, maybe he’ll be in the next one.
How to explain away his death in Generations. You don’t have to… just have him there as Kirk in the 24th century.
To all Shatner fans, relax. So he isn’t going to be in this one, maybe he’ll be in the next one.
How to explain away his death in Generations. You don’t have to… just have him there as Kirk in the 24th century. Never have it mentioned when he does appear. Maybe what happens in this first movie corrected or changed that one event from happening. Hence, he lives in the 24th century. He and Picard defeated Soran and now he is alive. Does not need to be stated. Besides, explaining it onscreen will not appease the fanbase either way.
jhoward–I think you nailed it.
No need to go into detail–in the epilogue, old Shatner Kirk could tell Spock something like “Thanks for telling me not to hesitate on that rickety bridge….to think a chump like Soran might’ve gotten the best of me is…embarrassing.”
To which Spock would reply with his standard, “Indeed.” ;)
This is a movie for everyone, for the masses, not only for hard core Trek fans. Abrams wants a clear, understandable starting point for the TOS crew. Having to explain the mess about Nexus/Kirk/Veridian and so on will kill the whole project. Please, let Kirk rest in peace.
156. Paulaner-
That’s what the last few posts are saying–don’t make a big deal about it, but you can make a brief reference to it (i.e. the Shat appearance) as a heart to the fans of Trek’s previous incarnations.
Of course that’s all moot anyway, as the Shat didn’t want a brief scene like some of us would have been content with, so as we say on Earth–”C’est la vie.”
How hard can it be to bring Shatner’s Kirk back from the dead? -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2JeKeVynbY&feature=related
I can think of one billion 2 million five hundred and thirty one thousand forty one ways to bring shatner back.
if the writers couldnt find away they should be writing science fiction!
Even shatner himself had written an audio book where someone used borg technology (nanites) to resurrect him from the dead. And we all know what a mediocre writer shatner is! lol
#158 “Even shatner himself had written an audio book where someone used borg technology (nanites) to resurrect him from the dead.”
The lamest thing ever written, in my opinion :)
Hahahahah.. Madness, how a small minority can make such noise over an actor. It’s much more important that the new movie lives up to the name Star Trek, by adhering to Roddenberry’s ideals by and large. It’ll be a first. None of the movies have ever done that. But it’s about time, if you want people to understand the true nature of Trek.
160 - Hahahahah…. o enlighten us, o wise one. Fact is, Star Trek is inherently trivial, much as I love it. No part of it is really more or less worthy of making a noise about than any other.
You’d also be hard pressed to argue that ‘Star Trek: The Motion Picture’ isn’t, like ‘The Cage’, a blast of pure Gene R unfettered by almost any other constraints.
I would like to see Shatner play the child Kirk’s grandfather. The potential scene would be nothing but a goldmine for the movie, and would give Shatner what he needs to make his performance seem relevant… Perhaps sharing his own dreams with the boy, and hinting at his great destiny. (Perhaps an origin to Kirk’s Firm belief that he will die alone?) A flash to his grandfathers death and how he dies perhaps? Like I said, its a scene that could easily be still shot and added.
unless the scene was an integral part to the main storyline, I can see that a flashback type apprearance by bill shatner would have felt wrong, too distracting, and I can see why Bill would have wanted a bigger role, his presence on the screen is too big, in many ways ;) , to be just a cameo.
So, as painful as it is, i have come to the conclusion that its probably a good thing that he isn’t in it, if the old Kirk doesn’t have a major role in the plot.
32. Boborci
“After the movie, I’ll post the sequence in question…”
Cool. A nice bonus after the movie. Looking forward to it. Thanks!
#160 If you want to understand Star Trek you’ll just have to watch the series (any and all of them). All the movies are weak in comparison.
Considering the scene doesn’t exactly sound very good, and wouldn’t have helped with Generations, it would have been irrelevant. However, now that the Generations excuse has been exposed for being super weak, they are turning to comments made well after he was informed he was not in the movie (by Nimoy).
The timeline doesn’t match the excuses.
The bottom line is that there is no excuse for their failure to TALK WITH THE GUY. They NEVER approached him. So they are using MEDIA comments as an excuse? That is weaker than Generations. This isn’t kindergarten. Pick up the phone.
And for a movie that from what we have seen involves time travel, and Spock travelling back in time to stop a bad guy from killing Kirk, you would think that a one scene appearance could involve a restored Kirk at the very end of the movie.
So again, this is just backpedalling and trying to use Shatner’s name to promote a movie that many Shatner fans are upset about. This was a huge screw up.
I’m disappointed that Shatner won’t appear in the movie as Kirk, but respect the reasons. Generations is the point at which I truly ‘disengaged’ with Star Trek to the extent that I simply ignored the film afterwards.
I believe in Generations’ events about as much as I believe Federation citizens go to work unpaid! If it had been me making the film and I knew there weren’t lunatic ‘fans’ who’d declare a fatwa on me, I would have had Kirk and Spock travel back to the past and simply ignored Generations! The mainstream audience probably wouldn’t remember Kirk’s death in a cheap almost-TV movie from 15 years earlier anyway! :p ;)
165 - While that’s fair as a qualitative personal opinion, it’s pretty hard to argue that Star Trek The Motion Picture (Produced and Co-Written by GR) somehow ‘adheres to Rodenberry’s ideals’ less than something made without his involvement and ten years after his death.
167 - It’s clearly established in both a) ‘The Voyage Home’ and b) ‘The Neutral Zone’ (both made before ‘Generations’) that a) money and b) material needs generally no longer exist within the Federation by the time of Star Trek.
To be fair, why would they? Material needs, the concept of ‘pricing’ and the exchange of tokens for services and goods only exist because of the finite nature of such materials. The replicator renders the whole notion of capitalism moot. If food can be made out of energy on the spot and moved to anywhere in the world basically instantaneously the notion of ’sophisticated barter’ essentially stops working more or less instantaneously too.
It’s interesting that you should mention your own disengagement with the franchise as it was DS9’s odd refusal to accept this aspect of Star Trek (particularly Jake and Nog’s mocking of Picard’s comments about it) that made me lose interest in the spin-offs.
Equally, I find Ron Moore’s inability to accept the idea of a money free future in which human beings exist largely to ‘better themselves’, rather sad. It’s too negative a view of human nature, for me.
I would like to know if J.J. based his decision on whether to even try to include the Shat or not on the trumped up press stories or actually talked with Bill directly about a possible role in the new movie?
I totally understand and can accept that the story simply didn’t lend itself to including Shatner as “old” (or current Shat version) Kirk but this comment makes it sound like he was listening to the crap passing for journalism and assuming that Shatner really wouldn’t accept a “cameo” without talking with him directly.
Am I the only one that sees it that way?
Boborci, thank you for the promise to share that sequence sometime in May 2009. It’ll be a nice coda to the movie to have that to read….
I just wish it involved a time-returning Spock at the end of the movie, undershooting from the time he left, with his gravity boots engaged, on Veridian III catching a falling Kirk. (Which we’ve seen him do once before…)
What a sequence THAT would be to bring back Kirk, one that would end with Shatner, Nimoy and Stewart all in a frame together…. and a line from Stewart’s Picard along the lines of “I couldn’t have done it without you two…”
Well, Shatner is right in that he is certainly worth the bucks, even for a cameo. Because it’s not a matter of being compensated for “acting.” It’s a matter of lending his name to a “Star Trek” project, and in this instance, a TOS based project, which in turn gives the studio some mighty big cards to play when it comes to advertising the film. NImoy and Shatner..the original Spock, the original Kirk. Together again. The final film for the original Kirk and Spock, etc etc etc.
Shatner KNOWS the studio would benefit well beyond the “acting” compensation he himself would recieve for a cameo, so I can’t blame him at all for that.
It’s just a darn shame the studio wouldn’t fork over the $…. assuming, of course, that he’s not in the film. :)
Anyone here read the Star Trek novel where Kirk was “brought back” to life? What did that entail and would it work as a 5 minute ending to this film?
Well, since they couldn’t get Shatner, maybe they can do the next best thing and get Nazareth to score the movie. Spock’s theme will be a re-written version of ‘Hair of the Dog’
“Now yo messin’ with a green-blooded SON OF A —–!”
Hey, it could work.
;)
#32. Gracias! Can’t wait.
Poysonally, I’ll miss seeing a glimpse of Shat in the movie. (*If* in fact he isn’t; I’m still holding onto a shred of hope for an easter egg.)
But I appreciate the filmmakers’ desire to steer clear of gimmickry — that bodes well for the screenplay. On balance, I’d rather see a terrific “Star Trek” w/out Shatner than a tacky one w/him.
And I can understand Shatner’s point of view, too. The man is 77. He’s been a professional actor since what, his teenage years? Of course he wants a bigger role. After all these decades, he naturally feels he deserves one. (Remember “Sunset Boulevard”?. . . “I am big. It’s the pictures that got small.”)
Anyway, as I’ve said all along, I’m pumped for this movie regardless. Everything I’ve read from Abrams & Orci et al makes me believe they’re dead serious about honoring the franchise by making — first and foremost — a good film. As a Trekkie, that’s all I want!
JJ, Bob, and Bill meet in Bill’s house to discuss Bill’s role in XI:
JJ “Ya know, the funny problem we’re facing is…ya died.”
Bill (friendly) “Go…climbahill, I’ve already resurrected Kirk when you were still in your diapers.”
JJ (desperately) “But novels are not canon - and I must stick to canon.”
Bill (emphatically) “But WHY, WHAT FOR, WHAT canon?”
JJ (slightly confused) “The canon those damned Geeks keep talking ’bout.”
Bob (eagerly) “Anything which appears to violate canon will have a canon explanation.”
JJ “Sshh, be quiet, will ya.”
Bob “Sorry”
JJ (hopefully) “But I’m desperately trying to put you in, Bill.”
Bill (giving him “the look”) “Never say “try” to me.”
JJ “Well, actually Bob has written a flashback scene for you.”
Bob “Well, technically, it isn’t a flashback.”
Bill (bangs his fist on the table) “Sod you, I don’t want some goddamned flashback scene even if it isn’t a flashback scene, I don’t want a piece of the action, I want THE ACTION, and I want it NOW.”
JJ “Yes, frankly, you deserve this, Bill!”
Bill “So…what’stheproblem?”
JJ “To be honest, this is not the film we’re going to make.”
Bill (very slowly) “I.did.not.quite.catch.that.”
JJ “What I meant is, you created Kirk, you deserve this movie to focus on you significantly, but we’re not gonna make this movie the way you deserve it and apparently we’re not smart enough to resolve this.”
Bob (eagerly) “Anything which appears to violate canon will have a canon explanation.”
JJ “Shut up”
Bill “WTF??”
JJ “As soon as we’ve cracked it, we’ll call you Bill.”
JJ and Bob clear off, never call again, make some scifi film with some funny kids, adhering to and violating some canon. Bill cannot remember anything. JJ & Co. blame Bill for..well..whatever.
This is the script so far - I’m desperately trying to sell it.
175. Iowagirl - September 9, 2008
Nice work!
60. Why do we need to see Shatner one more time? He’s already had two encores with THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY and GENERATIONS. Three would just be silly and stupid.
177 “Why do we need to see Shatner one more time? He’s already had two encores with THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY and GENERATIONS. Three would just be silly and stupid.”
Only if you don’t like Shatner as Kirk.
112.
Yeah, I agree. Most times when I see a writers “stunt”, killing a character to make the story more dramatic, I start thinking it must be a poor story to necessitate killing a character off.
Shatner is the stumbling-block here, which is a shame. Shatner has said that he is disappointed with the way his character was killed-off. Many fans have vocalised their displeasure, also. Now, in a feature-film, Shatner has an opportunity to correct this. He should take it.
I do not understand why, instead, Shatner is taking issue with the film-time that has been offered to him. Even if he only had a five minute cameo, you can bet that it would be a main talking-point among fans, critics, TV hosts, etc. His role would, thus, seem larger than it is…
in my mind i could see spock in some darkened room, contemplating his plans regarding their younger selves- thinking to himself and then kirk would step out of the shadows speaking to him, a voice from the past then still very much a part of him…
153.
To all Shatner fans, relax. So he isn’t going to be in this one, maybe he’ll be in the next one.
Please don’t put Shatner in the next film–assuming there is one. Time for TREK to move forward and let another group of actors take command.
but shatner is too self-important for just a cameo- he obviously doesnt care too much about the fans and the film- just money- like he doesnt have a comfy retirement fund at this point.
Alas, we furthermore should all agree that Future Guy is really a time-travelling Bill Shatner, attempting to change the past… and in the process creating the Star Trek universe…
Seriously though, Future Guy could be a Nexus-mad immortal Kirk. That could be interesting.
i know a way they could have did it…they could have made a 2 part movie and you could bring kirk in using parts of a book i remember mr shatner writing that i cant seem to remember the name but i know that in the story which was a good read by the way was that the romulans had went to the planet that kirk was buried in and use some sort of dna technology and brought kirk back to life and spock found out and it was a good story that brought kirk back to life and you have the romulan involment which they are in the new movie and you even had some next generation characters so you could have made a movie bridging the gaps again like generations. you have the new cast…with the original cast ….and the next generation all in one…..everybody leaves happy campers.
#175 … LOL. Yay, Iowagirl is back!! :-)
“We’re stronger with you than without you!”
“Alex [Kurtzman] and I did indeed come up with a sequence for Shatner that we wrote before the strike, although technically it wasn’t a flashback.”
A sequence for Shatner is not necessarily a sequence for Kirk.
Don’t fake the funk on a nasty dunk.
Generations was not an encore. It was an assassination. If Generations didn’t exist, Shatner returning would not be as big of a deal. Kirk is now the main character again. But we know that no matter what, he dies stupidly. The character’s life is important to the franchise. But now, thanks to poor decisionmaking and even weaker excuse making, Shatner will not be in this movie. The character of James Kirk still has no future. No hope. That goes against everything Trek stands for. You can’t revitalize the franchise when the main character ends up dead against a mountain.
I lost interest in Star Trek a long time ago. My love for the franchise died with Kirk, and I clung to it on the hope that somehow, some writer would get the point that the death was ridiculous.
But instead of that, we have weak excuses based on events that happened AFTER the decision was made to not include Shatner. If Abrams was so desperate, then why didn’t he get on the phone? Desperate people don’t give up based on newspaper clippings–especially when they happen AFTER the decision was made (a point that needs to be repeated since that cameo line holds no water).
I’m not the only person passing on this movie because of this issue, and they certainly cost themselves people who would have gone to that movie JUST to see an Shatner return to his iconic role.
They need to show Kirk alive after Generations whether they use Shatner or not. Without that, there’s really no point in watching Star Trek anymore. We know the ending, and it stinks.
I think a flashback cameo would not work. I wouldn’t like to see Shatners Kirk as a flashback pre-Generations cameo. Why to bring Shatners Kirk from the past, if his characker will stay dead? If Shatner refused this, I think he was right. It wouldn’t change anything. I’d like to see old Kirk alive. Many charakters in Trek died, some of them for many times, several times even in one episode, so why not to have old living Kirk? Maybe Shatner would accept such cameo.
The Nexus problem was dicussed here above for several times.
#176
Thanks.
#186
Thanks, my friend - one more compliment and I’ll faint. :)
From some of the posts in this thread, there seems to be an opportunity to please a lot of constituencies given the right touch of writing and a great deal of imagination.
First, you have Spock (Nimoy) return to his own time and find THE SHAT waiting for him, much to Spock’s own fascination with infinite diversity (also wondering how he could have f’d up so badly given that he knows EVERYTHING about time travel, at least when it comes to the volume and mass of whales).
Second, this sets up two different Star Trek franchises. One that can continue in the 24th Century with Shatner getting a Kirk movie all his own with Nimoy scuttling about trying to undo the new damage that has been done by Kirk’s continuing womanizing and destruction into a new century. Plus you have the kids running around within the context of the original series timeframe.
Third, canon is BOTH violated and preserved. We know something has changed, in order for Kirk to be alive. This means that what happens with the ‘kids’ can have some changes (not many, but enough to give writers some serious wiggle room within canon) and still remain faithful to the accepted universe prime.
At the same time, the Shatner movie can show the effects of the change in the timeline and make the necessary adjustments to canon, or use them in the plot to have Kirk/Spock figure out what the hell happened and how that has put the universe in peril and Kirk’s ship is the only one in the quandrant to save it.
Now, this wouldn’t be a cameo for Shatner, rather a chance to get back in the (now much) big chair for at least one more go ’round. And we may even find out that one of the vast unknowing numbers of offspring of the great Denny Crane might have ended up in Iowa marrying someone of the surname Kirk???
Just my feeble attempt, as your spiritual guide to make peace with the fanboys, purists, shippers and all else who find things to kill A LOT of time before next May. Also, since Marvel seems to be making a lot of hay in starting multiple movies with threads that converge later - “Imagine the Possibilities.”
May the Spirits of the Celestial Temple bring you peace and prosperity
The Vedek.
I love Shatner first off. But he made his bed when he went with an uninspired death in Generations…dead is dead, he’s not a vulcan theres no “katra” hidden in Picard or in a rock (maybe the horse - that’d be fun). As much as I’d love to see him in it, he pretty much closed the book on him.
#168
I think it’s the degree, the near absolute implication and exaggerated tone of Picard’s comments that borders on fantasy. It was humorously mocked by DS9 and Moore and I agree. Even you doubt it’s totality, which is why you stated, “… material needs ‘generally’ no longer exist, or your statement, “…’sophisticated barter’ essentially stops working more or less …”, recognizing that Picard’s blanket statement was, to some degree, silly. It’s realistic to recognize that some barter or exchange system will exist and that is the point of the criticism. I can recall at least one TOS episode that talked about the use of credits, so it would appear to me that TOS and DS9–my two favorite TREK series–were more realistic and believable.
I would like to say something in defense of Shatner. I’m not excusing his frailties as a human. Maybe he is the ego people say he is, and maybe he has all or even some of the petty traits he’s accused of. But I really believe his concern for the character is factored in his decision making about how big a roll he will accept. Even when he was stepping on other people’s lines or taking away lines in the old show or whatever the allegations are, I always felt like he was doing it in large part for a genuine regard and interest in his character’s well being. I mean, really this character is his legacy - despite the varied career he’s had…this is what people will always remember him for. He knows that. So in that regard I don’t blame him for not accepting any little thing offered him
I’ve said this before, but constantly bringing dead characters back from the dead in increasingly convoluted and ridiculous ways tends to kill the dramatic tension for this viewer. Frankly, I’m glad they didn’t waste an entire movie trying to rework Generations. Yes, we’re all a little frustrated with that film, and it wasn’t executed (no pun intended) in the best way. Frankly, I think a dramatic fight between Soran and Kirk would have made more sense, but apparently that’s the one test audiences didn’t like. Go figure. Of course, I also recognize that the writers were rushed, rushed, rushed into writing that picture, and Rick Berman was really putting the screws to them to get it done quickly, not to get it done well. Hey, the past is the past. Can’t change it.
Clearly there are fans out there that feel Shatner deserved to have the entirety of this new movie about him, and about fixing this terrible injustice that Generations created. I guess I can respect that, even if I don’t understand it. Frankly, I’ve been waiting years for a Spock-centric movie where Leonard Nimoy could really shine, so news of this movie was like a dream come true (and no, TSFS doesn’t count - he’s in all of 5 minutes of it!).
I love TOS, but one of the things I always disliked was the necessity for every single story to center around Kirk. Even stories that were really about the other characters still had to have Kirk strutting through every scene. I know it’s considered sacrilege, but I think some of the later shows like DS9 had the right idea with the ensemble. Sure, Sisko is in most of the stories, but we did get a break here and there. I would have liked that in TOS, but it was too radical an idea at the time to exclude ‘the star’ from a story.
Kirk’s death can also lend the story a bittersweet flavor that could raise the emotional stakes for Spock. He’s living in the 24th Century, most of his friends are dead, his parents are dead - this might mean he’ll turn into something of a daredevil in this attempt to ‘repair’ the timeline. After all, what does he have to go back to? Maybe he’ll start taking some ‘unecessary risks’ like his old friend Jim Kirk. Or perhaps Starfleet has to offer some special inducements to get Spock to go back. Or he may even be going to back to fix Kirk’s death, but along the way realizes how many unwanted changes that will make in the timeline a la COTEOF. Who knows. But it does open up all sorts of storytelling possibilities.
178
Only if you don’t like Shatner as Kirk.
I do like Shatner as Kirk, but he has had two times to say goodbye! It’s time to move on! Okay. His last goodbye was in a bad movie, but it’s NOT the job of ST:XI to correct a bad film. TREK is dead, and the job of this film is to attempt to fix that. That is a lot more important.
193 - I know what you’re saying but it does seem that GR’s intention was that Star Trek was set in a post capitalist society (in the same way he intended it to be a post theist society).
I don’t think the abandonment of capitalism is silly, in the right circumstances. Those are not the ones in which we live now but the replicator would render the whole system unworkable and pointless more or less straight away. All you’d need is one altruistic person with a replicator and a transporter and the concept of payment is rendered moot.
Capitalism only functions because of the finite nature of resources. When resources are infinite, it simply won’t work. Which sets up the idea of humans living ‘to better themselves’. Which I like, personally.
TOS is my favourite ST series, but I think TNG is a more clearly thought through version of the programme, one in tune with the older, more reflective, less traditional GR.
IMHO, of course.
Kirk is not the character that you draw the line with when it comes to bringing characters back from the dead, especially in a movie like this which is built entirely around future Spock time travelling to prevent Kirk’s death.
So it’s ok to save young Kirk but not old Kirk?
Yes, the job of this movie is to fix the franchise, but the franchise will never be right as long as Kirk is dead.
Spock would NEVER stand for Kirk’s death as it was. LOGICALLY, he would save his friend. It’s illogical to travel back in time and save Kirk one way, but not another. But the plot standpoint isn’t even important at this point because the producers CHOSE not to do it.
For them to claim Generations was the barrier is simply ridiculous. One final scene at the end of the movie with Shatner and Nimoy together, post-Generations would not change their story one bit.
Kirk’s survival in Generations would be the result of Spock’s time meddling and the audience would see that and applaud.
But instead, Kirk remains dead, and the franchise remains tainted.
Let’s please not bring up Shatner’s books, because other than the first two, they’re all the same plot over and over and over again - Kirk wants to retire, the ‘universe’ won’t let him, he goes out on a personal mission and miraculously crosses paths with every Star Trek character EVER, and is somehow the only one in the entire universe that has any common sense and coincidentally is the only one that can fix the problem because of some random experience in his past.
#178—”Only if you don’t like Shatner as Kirk”
I don’t buy into the notion that you cannot enjoy Shatner’s portrayal as Kirk and still feel that he doesn’t belong in this film. Those are two very separate issues.
#16 “178
Only if you don’t like Shatner as Kirk.
I do like Shatner as Kirk, but he has had two times to say goodbye! It’s time to move on!”
Only if you’re tired of watching Shatner play Kirk.
Apparently, from many of the posts in this thread, many fans don’t care for the man….but by the same token many fans dig Shatner’s Kirk and would love to see him play the character again. In a rebooted timeline that clearly has been altered and suffered some contamination, previous “goodbyes” are irrelevant.
If the man truly isn’t in the film, I think it was all about the $. The studio simply wouldn’t pony up the cash. Too bad, if true. To quote Kor, it would have been glorious.
It’s great that Bob Orci has agreed to reveal the actual sequence that was imagined originally for William Shatner for this whole big budget Star Trek ‘revival’! It will be very interesting to see, if it somehow ‘reversed’ the poor removal / ‘canon’ death of such an iconic fictional character, or not.
Good fictional characters are hard to come by, and it’s a pity this particular one was effectively disposed of. What a chance this upcoming Movie seemed to be initially, to somehow UNDO this travesty of a decision on the part of a previous generation of Star Trek makers, including William Shatner for agreeing to that decision at the time too. Unfortunately, even though this TOS-based storyline has gone with the old chestnut of ‘time-travel’, it seems this iconic character is doomed to so-called previous ‘canon’, and will not be brought back from his premature ‘death’ in ANY way whatsoever.
However, post #21 N has given me new hope, and an idea! I am going to just imagine that whatever so-called ‘canon’ is featured in this Movie, is NOT, but just a total ‘alternative time-line’ no matter what…. The ‘main’ timeline is just TOS and the Movies that come before TNG! Yes, TNG and everything that came after it, is just an ‘alternative timeline’ too, which doesn’t effect the ‘main’ / ‘proper’ timeline (TOS), and therefore the fictional character just ‘lives on’ adventuring in my imagination somewhere. Kirk still lives! And this Enterprise can be purple with 3 Nacelles for all it matters!
Will Shatner appearing in this film bring a more mainstream audience into the theater or bring in any new comers to the franchise? I doubt it. Seeing a fat old puffy faced actor shoved into a role for just to satisfy some off kilter, die hard Trek nerds may have the opposite effect. If I were new to Trek and heard all this hype from a very vocal min