ST09 Tidbits: Bob and Alex Address Issues + Box Office Update + Stars Wars/Trek + more May 14, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Great Links, Star Trek (2009 film), TOS , trackback
Many fans of the new Star Trek movie still have questions and yesterday the screenwriters answered a few at a screening, we have details on that below. Plus Trek had another leggy day on Wednesday at the Box office. We have all that plus a new make your own T Shirt contest and a couple of new Star Wars looks at Star Trek.
Orci & Kurtzman respond to issues
Although the new Star Trek film has got mostly rave reviews in the mainstream and nerd media, there are some issues that many have brought up, including reviewers here at TrekMovie. Well there was a special screening of the Star Trek film last night in LA arranged by Creative Screenwriting Magazine, and Bob and Alex attended and answered some questions. Our friend Mojo has a blog about this event, here are some highlights of what the pair had to say [SPOILERS]:
- Deleted scene showed Corvette was George Kirk’s and little Jim stole it because abusive step dad was going to sell it [note: this scene is in the book]
- Winona Kirk was in Starfleet (explaining why she was on Kelvin)
- Kirk’s coincidental run-in with Spock Prime on Delta Vega was example of fate trying to bring them together (was covered in script at one point) [see TrekMovie interview which covers this]
- Deleted scene explained Gaila the Orion helped Kirk cheat on Kobayashi Maru
There’s more at Mojo’s blog from O&K, including talking about Uhura & Spock and even lens flares.
Creative Screenwriting should also be putting up a podcast of the event, we will link to that when it is available. Bob and Alex are also featured in the cover story of the current issue of the magazine, here is the cover.
Bob and Alex in Creative Screenwriting
ATTN LA Writers: Attend ‘An Evening With Kurtzman & Orci’
If you want your chance to talk to them, next Tuesday the WGA is holding a ‘Writers on Writers’ talk and reception with Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci. They will talk about their careers and projects followed by an audience Q & A. The event is on Tuesday, May 26 at 7:30-9:30pm at the Writers Guild Theater (135 S Doheny Dr., 90211). Tickets are $20 (with discounts for WGA members and studets). More details at wgfoundation.org.
Box Office: Trek 6 day total matches Wolverine + weekend estimates
Star Trek brought in $5.8M on Wednesday, bringing its six day domestic total up to $99.0M. Even though Wolverine had a bigger opening weekend, Star Trek’s stronger weekdays have been enough to essentially match Wolverine’s six day total of $99.1M. This must be especially gratifying to Paramount as some early reports suggested Wolverine would make twice as much as Trek. Box Office Mojo is also reporting Star Trek has brought in over $42M in International sales so far, bringing the total take to $141.8M (note international data is not as up to date and Trek has yet to open in some markets).
With the good word of mouth keeping Trek buoyant, the next question is how well will it do in its second weekend when it faces off against Angels & Demons. Today on Twitter there was a bit of chatter amongst some movie site mavens about whether Trek could actually get a second number one weekend, with Cinematical’s Erik Davis predicting a Trek winner. But that seems unlikely. Although prognosticators assume Angels & Demons will win, the Box office Mojo Derby has Trek bringing in $38.5M, and BoxOffice.com predicting $42M.
There is one indicator already, as Fandango has announced that Angels & Demons is currently accounting for 46% of sales, with Star Trek accounting for 42%.
Make your own Star Trek T-shirt – win a prize package
Searching for the perfect Star Trek T-Shirt? Why not design your own and win some prizes. Yerzies, the site that promises you to ‘make it yerz’ is another new Star Trek licensee and they are running a contest to promote that where you can submit your own design for a Star Trek T-Shirt. The 10 best finalists will be chosen in two weeks and all of those will then be available for purchase. A winner will be chosen later based on sales and the designer gets $500 in Star Trek prizes. You can submit your entry (and look at the other entries so far) at yerzies.com
Finally: Star Trek v Star Wars
We heard a lot from the filmmakers about how they wanted to bring some Star Wars into Star Trek, and a new video at College Humor looks at just how far they went…
And if that isn’t enough Star Wars and Trek, then there is this…
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Comments»
He didn’t cheat, he “changed the conditions of the test.”
Got a commendation for original thinking
Okay, so maybe there we SOME parallels between the two franchises.
Funny stuff!
LOL
1st !!!!!
Can we just drop this whole morphing of Star Wars with Trek? If I want to see something on Star Wars I’ll go read a Star Wars fan site.
Just got the book today, haven’t started reading it yet though. I’m really interested in the deleted scenes. This is the first I’ve heard of the Gaila scene…I wonder how she helped him?
Pretty interesting Star Wars/Star Trek comparison.
My friends who are not Trek fans all agree that there was a lot of Star Wars influence in the Trek film.
I have to admit to seeing it too.
5 does not equal 1.
Kirk: I do not believe in the no-win scenario.
Got me chills when he said that in the new movie
The trek is on! Watched it three times already, but I want more!!
\\// from Jundiaí, SP, Brazil
^Gaila might be a proficient programmer.
-cs™
The Star Wars comparison could be extended to the young hero lost and running from monsters on a snow planet until an old friend rescues him and tells him was he has to do next.
It’s relevant because JJ Abrams is known to be a bigger Star Wars fan than a Star Trek fan. The comparison film illustrates the common “hero’s journey” mythology of these two films.
1 – THANK YOU. Represent.
And re: SW vs. ST. I love it. Is that the best they can do? A stationary Enterprise target sitting there? Please. The Enterprise alone would destroy the entire Imperial Navy. Transporters, folks. And a ton of other things.
Yeah, the camera panning along the underside of the Kelvin’s hull in one long take at the beginning of STXI, left me shaking my head as the movie started – I didn’t buy a ticket for Star Wars.
Okay, I loved the movie… but I got a question that maybe someone more clever than I can answer. How could Kirk and Scotty beam aboard the Enterprise from Delta Vega – half way across the galaxy? I know Spock gave Scotty the formula but, if they could transport at that range why the need for starships? Why a Star Trek to begin with? Am I missing something and wouldn’t that undermine most of the plots on ALL the various series and movies? I’ve read lots of questions about the different details but this seems to strike at the heart of the basic tenants to me. Okay, more than one question.
the star destroyer would have no only destroyed the enterprise but the planet as well. but kirk would have just wapred away and not sat there like DUMB ass… aaannnd then the storm troopers would have been screwed lol
the enterprise didnt trvael half way across the galaxt. it would have taken them about 100 years to do tha considering the milky way could be like half a million light years in diamiter. it probably traveled about a light year or a sector away
Doesn’t anyone writing articles here know how to spell-check their work? It isn’t rocket science.
I don’t know what ”boyount” is and I most certainly don’t want to hear a movie review by a ”moth.”
Writers of a high school newspaper have more professionalism.
#1 — not in the Abramsverse, he gets captaincy straight from cadet for his reward. Which teaches him nothing.
I’m glad Bob Orci is still out there answering questions for us fans. I love this film; I’ve seen it numerous times and will see it again. But I have one nagging question, or problem: when the Kelvin and later the Enterprise are under attack, and the helmsmen claim “the shields are at 32%” for example, incoming debris and weapons smash the ship as though there were no shields at all. Shouldn’t they bounce off or be deflecting until the shields were no longer there? This really bugs me for some reason. Anyway, I look forward to some creative answers. And this being my only issue, obviously this is a truly remarkable film. Carry on!
#17 Right. I believe the Milky Way is 100,000 light years across. Delta Vega is near the edge of the galaxy according to WNMGB. It seemed to take minutes to reach Vulcan from Earth in this movie, no? Spock saw Vulcan implode from Delta Vega, right? It took Kirk sometime to hike 14 kilometers with Spock prime to find Scotty and devise their plan. So I imagine the Enterprise has covered some serious ground at high warp in that span. See my point? And even if it only went a light year, that would still change things significantly wouldn’t it?
The parallels between Star Trek and Star Wars just show how iconic both are. Both take from Greek legends, Shakespeare, etc. Both touch our hearts.
Personally, I would love for someone to get the ball rolling on nominating Leonard Nimoy as best supporting actor . Whereas Pine and Quinto share the job as lead, it is Nimoy that brings it all together and really supports the film and the transition from old to new. I know sci-fi and fantasy has a difficult time at the academy awards but that glass ceiling was chipped by “Return of the King” and Heath Ledger.
I don’t know about anyone else but after seeing Star Trek I don’t have a need to see any another movie for the rest of the summer. Summer time is the time I am always at the movies. And there looks to be a lot of good entertaining movies this summer. But after seeing Star Trek I am done. Angels and Demons and Terminator Salvation, just don’t interest me at all. Speaking of Box Office, I can not remember where I read this article I believe in it was in the Hollywood Reporter. But they were saying that in order for Paramount to make a profit from Star Trek, the movie would have to make over 600 million to break even. I am not in the movie business but that number seems kind of high to me. I know a lot of money goes into making it and promoting it. I figured if Star Trek broke past 300 million then it would be fine. Over 600 million to break even? I am just wondering if anyone knows if the math on this is correct at all?
Re: Kobayashi Maru
I’d like to see the bit with the Orion girl most of all; it might help explain how the “original thinking” commendation came about. Because, as it stands, the whole sequence feels like forced humor … the post-Kobayashi Maru responses on the part of Spock and whoever that guy was standing with him are inexplicably mystified.
In this version of the story, Kirk didn’t program the simulation to allow for some tiny loophole he could exploit in the heat of the action and get away with it … He was basically just sitting there with that shit-eating grin on his face, munching his apple doing the equivalent of playing a videogame in God Mode, all cheats obviously on. Original thinking? Maybe apples are fiendishly hard to come by in 23rd-century San Francisco :)
One of the laudable achievements of this film is the conscious decision to make other Starfleet captains look competent, instead of falling back on the old “make other captains look dumb to make Kirk look clever” gimmick. But it seems to me that the gimmick wasn’t really discarded – just pasted over to Starfleet Academy :/
So I do wonder if the cut scene with the Orion girl sheds any light on that …
So thats why he stole that vintage c2, god that thing had a great engine note.
I hope that Star Trek makes more money than any other movie this year.
Yeah okay so some stuff matches up, but the difference is Star Trek was way better.
#26 – why?
I just returned from the theatre, this is my sixth time seeing the movie. I loved everything about the movie except one thing, engineering. I was in the Navy for ten years on older ships. The USS Gridley’s engine room was more modern than the Enterprise’s and it was built in the 1960’s.
This note is for JJ, Alex, Bob, and Dave. You all had many specialist and scientists on set for consultations. Why didn’t at least one of you visit on of the newly built aircraft carriers or power plants. Even visting a modern cruise ship’ s engine room and control rooms would have given you a better idea of what an engine room 150 years in the future might look like.
Sorry to rave on, but I feel this is the weakest area of the movie and I’m not the first to say so.
Hahaha see Star Wars cn’t stand on it’s own without ripping off from Star Wars, hahahahah!!!
14 I think it’s a record. We got all the way to 14 posts before someone added their 2cents worth of anti trek. you are allowed your op/ed but get a job for goodness sake I can’t be on here all the time to dispute you! I have to go to work tomorrow if you wan’t to fight about canon ect you’ll have to wait cagmar… unless someone in another time zone can carry the torch…..
Hahahaha see Star Trek can’t stand on it’s own without ripping off from Star Wars, hahahahah!
#32: You got us. Just please don’t shoot us with your Proton Torpedoes ;)
20, when the shields were at 32 percent, by design there were certain parts of the ship that were more protected than others so that those areas could be 100% protected. For example, the bridge is always the most protected part of the saucer, and the engines are the most protected part of the secondary hull. They are the last to give out, since the destruction of the bridge would mean the death of the command crew and thus the probable loss of the entire ship.
The Enterprise’s artificial intelligence system automatically diverted shield strength to those areas in most need of it, meaning that certain areas deemed less critical were unprotected.
This is also why the crack in the viewscreen/window was not actually as dangerous as believed. For one thing, the viewscreen is made of a transparent duranium alloy that is actually stronger than the nontransparent variety. (Notice that the Enterprise viewscreen did not need to be polarized or unpolarized, unlike the Kelvin’s.) This is also why the viewscreen cracked only after the dome of the bridge had already done so. For another, the bridge is protected by multiply redundant shields whose power reserve is virtually limitless, provided that there remains any power aboard the ship at all. Even multiple direct hits by a weapon that would otherwise penetrate other parts of the ship would have little effect on the bridge itself.
I’m glad they are answering questions about plot holes. As much as I’m a fan of “less is more”, this time a few more bits of dialogue migh have gone a long way.
I’ll have to read the book.
Going out this weekend to catch ST again and combat some of that Angels & Demons popcorn.
14. Sorry you didn’t like it cagmar. I absolutely loved that shot.
It’s not the same as the Star Wars opening. That was a long pan to emphasize how huge the Star Destroyer was. The long pan along the Kelvin had the radio chatter and sonar sounds that connected it with our modern world, and glances of people working through the windows. Made it very human, and brought me right back into Trek’s future of exploration and boldly going.
George Lucas stole many ideas from Star Trek too.
Gary Mitchell shoots lightning out of his hands, Apollo the greek god etc. in Star Wars The Emperor does the same thing.
Green dancing slave women.
Moving objects with your mind. Multiple Star Trek episode. Called The Force in Star Wars.
Many of Lucas ideas borrowed from other things. The beat goes on.
I’ll still take Star Trek over Star Wars any day.
ORCI/KURTZMAN WROTE: “After being rammed by the Kelvin, Nero’s ship was crippled; a convoy of Klingon Warbirds captured the crew and held them in a prison camp for all those years. Eventually the Romulans escaped, reclaimed their ship, blew up 47 Klingon vessels and returned to their mission”
REALLY!?!
SERIOUSLY!?!
So the Klingons end up with a Federation Starship AND a super advanced 24th Century spaceship and have the Romulans in a prison camp. So unlike Enterprise’s “In A Mirror Darky”, the Klingons make no advances in 25 years of their own technology with it actually in their hands, yet the federation with merely a data core makes advances in leaps and bounds? What, were the Klingons too busy trying to figure out who had the biggest bat’leth?
REALLY!?!
And then the Romulans, not genetically superior augments headed by Kahn, but jsut some Romulan guys overpower the Klingons (OK, I’ll give ‘em that one as much worse has happened in Trek before), but on top of this feat they actually get their ship back and manage to repair it to destroy most of the Klingon fleet to get away?
REALLY!?!
Why wasn’t the ship completely dismantled for its secrets like the Tholians did in “Mirror Darkly?” Or did the Klingons repair technology over a century beyond them, so it was in battle ready condition for the Romulan’s escape?
SERIOUSLY!?!
The massive plot holes in this explanation are worse than the question of what they were doing for 25 years. No wonder they cut it out of the movie. No wonder it confused the audiences who screened it.
REALLY!?! WOW.
I was a S/W fan when I was a kid the new movies didn’t do anything for me until ani became DV. That was cool. This new ST movie is incompareable to syar wars … what are you thinking?Just because there is an excellent space battle doesn’t mean we have to compare to star wars. In the Kelvin scene in the 1st 10 mins. It’s emotional beyond anything in SW…right?
I just got home from the Star Trek movie at IMAX in the Silver City complex in Ottawa.
The 7:00 p.m. IMAX screening was sold out tonight!
The 9:45 p.m. IMAX screening where my friend and I watched was 3/4 full.
Actually Star Trek came BEFORE Star Wars, so maybe Lucas ripped off his ideas from TOS?
#15 had a GREAT point, worth repeating. I wonder if the writers thought about this and what they would say:
” I know Spock gave Scotty the formula but, if they could transport at that range why the need for starships? Why a Star Trek to begin with? Am I missing something and wouldn’t that undermine most of the plots on ALL the various series and movies? I’ve read lots of questions about the different details but this seems to strike at the heart of the basic tenants to me.”
I also have my own concern, but I think I know what the answer might be: Because Spock Prime,-129 years older than Quinto’s Spock -is around, this renders all the Enterprise’s voyages moot. Spock prime knows how to handle The Doomsday Machine, The Whale Probe, Nomad, you name it. I wonder if Starfleet will be reduced to hauling grain for excitement.
I suppose the answer is that there is still the original timeline, where these threats/challenges exist, but they are just minor nuisances in the new timeline, where Spock Prime can just tell them how to handle them.
Ok, now lets talk about the next Trek! What possible story can they come up with? Gotta be Klingons involved… or Q?! That would be weird.
I really would never, ever use Box Office Mojo’s Box Office Derby number for anything like a prediction. It’s a game where random people can pick numbers out of their ass for predictions, and that includes me.
#42 – NO. You are not missing anything. Rodenberry knew the dangers of the transporter, but they had to use it to facilitate quickly getting from point-A to point-B. Though the later incarnations seriously abused it, even TOS found they were writing themselves into an ever precarious box each time they used the device to narrowly escape death.
For Orci/Kurtman/Abrams to write themselves into such a compromising position from the beginning sets up some complicated canon expectations which they must begin negating even before they start writing the sequel. Sadly, this is one of the many “way-cool” cheats that Abrams availed himself of which do nothing for the longevity of the franchise.
Star Trek vs. Star Wars.
Apples vs. Oranges.
WHO CARES?!!!
#44 Restoring the timeline? :p
Never Q. Abrams has no idea of how to direct deLancie.
I just saw it today.
As an old (and jaded) trek fan, I give it 4 stars. It might be the best trek movie yet made, imho.
I don’t understand how anyone could think this movie is somehow a disservice to the franchise. Nemesis, Insurrection, Generations, Final Frontier, Voyager, Enterprise… these were disservices.
This is the trek movie I always wanted. I have some reservations, but overall I couldn’t be happier with what they’ve done. When I think of how much trek I’ve seen that just meanders on lamely, spewing meaningless technobabble and rehashing the same stories the same way over and over again… this was a breath of fresh air. Can’t wait for the next one.
I would love Kurtzman & Orci to answer the biggest, most glaringly obvious question posed at the end of the film (and the film’s most egregious and mystifying plothole)…
Why doesn’t Spock Prime try (or even want) to fix/restore the timeline, and save Vulcan?
I dearly love the movie (despite the plot’s over-reliance on absurd coincidences), but it makes absolutely no sense for Spock Prime not to do anything and everything he possibly can to immediately restore/repair the timeline (or at least express a desire/need to do so).
Look at any of the big time travel episodes of Star Trek – City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday’s Enterprise, All Good Things, you name it – not to mention Abrams/Lindelof/Kurtzman/Orci’s very own Lost, as well as Kurtzman & Orci’s statements at the top of this Q&A, and it’s pretty clear a.) time travel involves a _single_ timeline, and b.) they’ve wiped the slate clean as far as the Star Trek universe’s timeline is concerned going forward.
I really wonder why Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci didn’t simply create/use the device of a _parallel_ universe (like the Mirror Universe) instead of a _replacement_ universe (like the one in Yesterday’s Enterprise)? Because what they’ve done is effectively like leaving the Enterprise-D in the Yesterday’s Enterprise alternate universe _forever_ (imagine if from that episode on TNG, DS9, Voyager had all taken place in _that_ universe!) — except in this case there’s a character (Spock Prime) from the original/correct timeline who actually knows for a fact this changed/altered timeline is wrong, and has the knowledge/ability to set things right again (as he has done before when necessary).
With one line of dialogue (i.e. Spock Prime saying he crossed into a parallel universe instead of simply travelled back in time) this wouldn’t be a problem, but as it is… it’s a whopper.
@ 51
I can’t remember the name of the TNG episode, but theres one where Worf travels between MULTIPLE universes. One in which the Borg destroyed Earth and the Federation has only a few ships left. That Riker asks our Enterprise for help but is refused, and eventually destroyed.
So A) there are other timelines as established by cannon. and B) not interfering with them seems to be a sort of dimensional prime directive
#51 – Because this is NOT CANON. IT IS A COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE REBOOT.
If this were canon, as everyone claims solely because of the presence of Prime Spock, then prime Spock would use all of the canonical knowledge in his possession of numerous time-travel technologies and events employed by his Prime federation to restore Vulcan if nothing else.
That’s why we can NEVER see another time-travel story in this alternate universe, because the minute it becomes possible the main question will be why not restore Vulcan. And if they do foolishly decide to do this as part of some trilogy like ST:II, III & IV, returning Vulcan to the timeline and defeating Nero before he can destroy anything, then the question becomes, why not go back and save the Kelvin too, thus completely restoring the timeline.
Again, one of the MANY MANY corners Abrams and the writer’s have painted themselves into.
How can Spock Prime fix it? The guardian? Maybe it’s destroyed? The ol’ slingshot (too easy/unpredictable/ridiculous?)? Where and when would he go and could he travel so easily to a specific point? Would he just create way more damage? Maybe the accidental time travel was part of the scheme of things. This is these characters’ reality. Apparently the old one is still going? Frankly, I was never a fan of that whole Enterprise temporal cold war timeline — just too much time messing around with time.
Physicists, please weigh in. As Roger Ebert did on his most recent Movie Answer Man:
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=ANSWERMAN
#52, that would be aptly named “Paralles” and contains my favorite line of all time: “Captain, we’re receiving 285,000 hails.” – A counterpart Lt. Wesley Crusher, as a huge number of Enterprises appear
Sadly, this may be true in the 24th century, but even then if something as important as Vulcan being destroyed, occurred, the federation would use every method at its disposal to restore it. I can see no reason why the destruction of the Kelvin would affect the way 23rd Century Federation would choose to enforce any kind of “temporal” Prime Directive.
This is a major departure form Canon and as such reinforces this film as a complete reboot.
#6 … I couldn’t agree more. Never cared for Star Wars, and everyone knows I hate the Sci-Fi cult anyway, some fans not far removed from my local Clearwater Scientologists. Harmless, but certainly living on a different galactic plane. What’s next? Star Trek v. Harry Potter? Star Trek v. Lord of the Rings? I would prefer Star Trek v. Galaxy Quest. Until this week, Galaxy Quest was always my favorite Star Trek movie, but this one actually beats it.
#51 … Nice try, but Spock found Nero’s ship waiting for him and he was stuck on Delta Vega II (as opposed to Delta Vega I – the desert planet with the lithium cracking station) … and who knows why Spock never bothered to make contact with the Starfleet base there except perhaps out of fear in changing the past and all of the Prime Directive stuff. Per the movie motives he was made to be the survivor just to what the inevitable end of his planet. Now, with all of those Vulcans dying at once, it certainly should have knocked every living Vulcan on their collective asses in pain (Immunity Syndrome), and I’ll go to my grave saying that the producers didn’t understand the NATURE of the characters, even if the HISTORY of the characters had been changed.
All that having been said, I think given all that I’ve seen in the movie, in hindsight I can’t find anything about the story less than ingenius. As I’ve said before, everything that was exists in the intruder into this Universe, the older Spock – and he’s stuck there. From this point forward, and I think there is perhaps the message behind the next movie in this, “it is what it is.” There’s no “going back” because even with the rewinds through time, we must all be “at one” with Spock the elder, because we know the Star Trek he knows, and with him we find that the familiar is now a strange new world, and that who is to really say that this “timeline” isn’t the corrected one?
52. adam — Sorry, but that’s illogical apologist targ crap. ;-)
Clearly the closest, most obvious time travel precedent/comparison for the film is Yesterday’s Enterprise — their plots are literally set up using the same device, and on top of that Kurtzman & Orci have cited it as a principal influence on the film. And on top of _that_, Abrams/Lindelof/Kurtzman/Orci have all very clearly established their own time travel rules on their show LOST, which fundamentally asserts that time travel occurs (and is contained) within a single timeline.
Look, they assumed the mantle of the Supreme Court — so I think it’s a fair question why they ruled in so stark contradiction of established precedent they themselves have cited (Yesterday’s Enterprise), and even _written_ (Lost).
29.
Agree about engineering.
Scotty had to eject 6 or 8 warp core “hops” into the Narada right at the end of the movie to get it to blow up inside the back hole.
Sounds like the perfect opportunity to go back and build a proper engine room. Keep as many pipes as you want, but throw in a starfleet standard issue multilevel warp core just for good effect…
Fascinating–on the directors edition of the star trek vi dvd-under stories from star trek vi-it started with a story shatner and nimoy mention the harve bennett starfleet academy young kirk young spock prequel–they call it a top gun star trek with this rambunctious willful iowa farm boy jim kirk meets up with this misanthropic misunderstood brilliant vulcan who was the first vulcan to ever join starfleet—they even showed concept art–and shatner mentions that the concept made him feel he was getting old—amazing how close jjs film comes to being that-so guess this concept has been haunting shatner and crew a long time–I would luv to see the story treatment details–wow
Seen Star Trek 4 times now. The darn IMAX projector broke right as the movie was starting today. Had to go see it on a smaller screen. Man I was pissed. Finally saw the Tribble and noticed Chris Doohan next to Scotty. I love this movie. Already have plans to see it again Friday night with friends. Take that Angels & Demons.
#53 – Thank you, Oh Canon Lord! Here I thought the definition of canon was that it was an official Star Trek film or television property. I guess we all forgot that canon also requires your blessing.
Sorry, Charlie, it’s canon.
I wish everybody would get off the “timeline” term. Nero’s time travel split off a copy of the Roddenberry-verse, which he immediately altered by destroying the Kelvin. It’s the Mirror Universe now. It can be moved in ways that would resemble the TOS events, but it cannot be “restored”. It is a different universe from TOS, just like the Mirror Universe, and just as much canon.
Also note that Spock Primes continued existence means that the Roddenberry TOS universe continues to exist in another dimension.
Actually the writers have not painted themselves into any corners except those existing in the minds of canonistas.
For one thing, Spock did not have the ability to time travel, nor did the Narada. They were pulled into the singularity and traveled not of their choice. Spock popped out later than the Narada, and Nero was waiting there because he knew Spock had not appeared yet and he wanted Spocks ship to get the Red Matter.
And as younger Spock observed, everything is new. No one’s destiny is set. The reset button was not pushed (thank god) and it was apparent it will not be pushed.
Star Trek is back and doing VERY well. And the reboot as done has given us our original characters and a template for many years of new adventures.
Oh, and also the preliminary word of mouth on Angels and Demons is not good. And bad word of mouth hurts box office as the fandango numbers show – A&D should be eating Star Trek alive not being basically tied in tickets this week.
56. John Sullivan — “nice try”? I’m not “trying” anything. I’m posing a logical question.
For you, on the other hand, to assert that the reason Spock Prime did nothing to restore the timeline was “out of fear in changing the past and all of the Prime Directive stuff” is completely illogical — Spock Prime _did_ change the past, which led to the destruction of Vulcan, and hence it’s his obvious responsibility to want/try to repair/restore it. Your logic crumbles even further by asserting the destruction of Vulcan was “inevitable”; obviously it wasn’t (it never happened in the original/correct timeline, but was the result of the timeline being altered).
And “who is to really say that this ‘timeline’ isn’t the corrected one?” Are you frakking kidding me?
Then again, you “can’t find anything about the story less than ingenius [sic]“. Um… how can Spock Prime possibly witness the destruction of Vulcan from the surface of Delta Vega with the naked eye? How is it that Nero’s ship just happens to appear exactly where the Kelvin is, which just happens to be the ship Kirk’s parents are on, and conveniently at the very moment that Kirk’s about to be born? And later, Kirk just happens to be deposited on the same planet as Spock Prime, and they both happened to be deposited on the same planet that Scotty’s on, and they just all happened to be put within walking distance of each other? And Kirk just happens to find Spock? Do I need to go on?
Look, I actually really love the movie, lens flares and all, but that doesn’t mean it’s perfect. (The Kobayashi Maru’s a civilian freighter, not a Starfleet ship, so it shouldn’t have a “U.S.S.” designation. That error made me wince.)
My point is the film needlessly opens up a big can of worms by the end that could have easily been closed/resolved/explained with one simple line of dialogue. I’m just asking… why?
Even though the writers say that this movie exists in an alternate timeline, nowhere do you get that impression when watching the movie, even Prime Spock refers to Vulcan as his Vulcan from his past timeline. After watching the movie I was enraged by the fact the Prime timeline had been changed/destroyed. But coming online reading what the writers saying that it’s not the Prime timeline that has been altered, this was not clear when watching the movie. So I think the writers have failed in this area.
(The following comment was posted a while ago, but kept getting thrown in with the spam.)
“The good word of moth?” You mean Trek was so good, even moths liked it? Nice! It’s very hard to please those little buggers. I think they were more drawn in by the lens flares, though.
Angels & Demons will most likely top the box office, but I’ve been keeping track of the daily values and comparing them with similar numbers from other movies, and I agree with that website, I think Trek can earn as much as $42 million over the weekend, possibly a bit more. Angels & Demons will probably win the weekend with around $50 million or so, but Trek will be hot on its tail. That said, I would be ecstatic if Trek wins over A&D.
Glad Bob & Alex took the time to answer some of those concerns; good info for Memory Alpha. :) That said, most of those really weren’t a issue for me, especially the whole “coincidental” meeting between Kirk and Prime Spock. It was handled well, and both were left there for good reasons: the Enterprise had just left Vulcan and Delta Vega was the closest planet in the system, hence why Spock marooned Kirk there. And Vulcan is apparently close enough to be seen on Delta Vega (a magnifying atmosphere, perhaps?), hence why Nero abandoned Spock there. So, yah, I didn’t see a problem with all that.
Anyways, thanks for keeping us up to date, Tony. Great job, as always. :)
By the way, Trek’s international gross is currently $45,906,165, for a current worldwide total of $144,908,704.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=startrek11.htm
61. Odkin — Oh, that’s rich. First you chastise RD for presuming to decide what is and isn’t canon, and then you proceed to do the very same thing yourself.
How can you possibly assert all this…
“I wish everybody would get off the “timeline” term. Nero’s time travel split off a copy of the Roddenberry-verse, which he immediately altered by destroying the Kelvin. It’s the Mirror Universe now. It can be moved in ways that would resemble the TOS events, but it cannot be “restored”. It is a different universe from TOS, just like the Mirror Universe, and just as much canon.”
…when that is never, ever said, established or described in the movie in any way, shape or form. You are completely pulling that our of your lower orifice is a desperate reach for convenience or an delusional act of denial.
For what you said happened to have happened, it has to have actually happened in the movie — not just in your imaginary reading-between-the-lines apologist interpretation of the movie.
If it didn’t happen in the movie, it didn’t happen.
It didn’t happen in the movie.
It didn’t happen.
But I dearly wish it did/had! And that’s my point — why didn’t Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci simply do that clearly in the film? (Maybe it’s what they intended, but it’s not what they executed, and that’s what ultimately counts.)
#18: “Doesn’t anyone writing articles here know how to spell-check their work? It isn’t rocket science. I don’t know what ”boyount” is and I most certainly don’t want to hear a movie review by a ”moth.” Writers of a high school newspaper have more professionalism.”
Thank you! I am a Navy journalist and when I pointed this out last week another post called me close-minded.
I am definitely with you.
64. Vapad — THANK YOU!!!
Finally someone logical who’s paying attention.
15. moauvian moaul – May 14, 2009
Interesting. We discussed that very question. The short answer is that it is entirely too dangerous. Scotty was almost killed, and we even had a line before they beam out where Scotty says, “If the calculation is of by even .oooooox(insert crazy number) we could end up 3 meters OUTSIDE the ship!” Remember, Spock Prime actually made the calculation. It’s possible there’s something key that he did not tell Scotty so that he could not reproduce the results. Interesting.
correction: If the calculation is OFF by even .oooooox(insert crazy number) we could end up 3 meters OUTSIDE the ship!”
20. RaymondJ – May 14, 2009
“I’m glad Bob Orci is still out there answering questions for us fans. I love this film; I’ve seen it numerous times and will see it again. But I have one nagging question, or problem: when the Kelvin and later the Enterprise are under attack, and the helmsmen claim “the shields are at 32%” for example, incoming debris and weapons smash the ship as though there were no shields at all. Shouldn’t they bounce off or be deflecting until the shields were no longer there? This really bugs me for some reason. Anyway, I look forward to some creative answers. And this being my only issue, obviously this is a truly remarkable film. Carry on!”
I too miss the glow of the egg-shaped shields. I can’t fully speak for JJ on that one, but I can imagine that he felt it might have seemed TOO protective and somehow rob the scenes of the visceral danger of SPACE right out the window (as evidenced but the genius shot he came up with where a poor crew member gets sucked into SILENT SPACE. Shields seemed to get in the way of that, and I seem to recall conversations about different ways to think of the shields (sealing the hull damage) and providing some kind of eletcro-tension effect on the hull itself that increased it’s natural strength or something.
Nonetheless, I feel ya!
#29: “I just returned from the theatre, this is my sixth time seeing the movie. I loved everything about the movie except one thing, engineering. I was in the Navy for ten years on older ships. The USS Gridley’s engine room was more modern than the Enterprise’s and it was built in the 1960’s.”
(also from one in the Navy)
Not only that, but if you go on any modern Navy vessel, you will find the ships so clean you can practically eat off the floors. I sure didn’t get that feeling from the engineering portions of the Enterprise.
C’mon JJ, I know you like Star Wars (who seemed to have preferred a gritty look), but this is TREK. I am sure that if a crew permitted work areas on a starship to be greasy and grimey you are asking for trouble… as in promoting work injuries and fire hazards–a ship’s worst enemy.
#8 – … well there was the bar scene (Star Wars … Episode 4 I think we call it now?) and there was a moment with Kirk and Sulu face down the malformed Romulans and they start drawing their weapons. At that point I was honestly ready for the light sabres to come flying out … but instead we get the physically impossible expanding sword and the Klingon harpoon-sword.
#64 Everyone I know that is a trek fan that who has seen this movie believes after watching this movie, the Prime time line is gone, destroyed. I know I’m not crazy on thinking this too.
29. TommieT. aka Troubled Tribble – May 14, 2009
Noted. A dozen considerations went into that decision, some creative and some production/filmaking philosophy related. Noted nonetheless.
32. Vapad – May 14, 2009
“Hahahaha see Star Trek can’t stand on it’s own without ripping off from Star Wars, hahahahah!”
As if successfully ripping off Star Wars were easy!
#77 A kid ripped off Star Wars, can anyone say Aragon.
correction Eragon
For the record, I’d like to make it absolutely clear what I thought of the film overall (which I first got to see at the now legendary unofficial Austin premiere with Nimoy, Lindelof, Kurtzman & Orci, and then saw again at the Austin IMAX sneak preview)…
I was a lapsed life-long fan when the movie started. I grew up on Star Trek reruns, saw the first eight films in theaters (most on opening day, or sooner), and every episode of TNG and DS9 when first aired. But Trek started to lose me during Voyager and definitely Insurrection, and completely lost me with Nemesis and Enterprise. So while Trek has been dead and lost to me for years, as a fan of Abrams & Co. I approached this film with cautious optimism, tempered enthusiasm, slight apprehension and sincere hope. I dearly wanted to love it. And I did love most of it, liked almost all the rest, and disliked only a small smattering of things. But here’s the most important thing: the film reignited my fandom. I am a lapsed fan no more. While the film isn’t perfect (it’s within reach, or at least sight, which is a huge achievement), I would assert that it has saved Star Trek. In other words: STAR TREK LIVES.
And I’m incredibly grateful it’s back, all shiny and new. Yes, it’s different, but then again it’s never really stayed the same, has it? From The Cage to Where No Man Has Gone Before to the original series to The Motion Picture to The Wrath of Khan, etc., it’s always been growing, evolving, changing — alive. And this movie is definitely more alive than Trek has been many, many years. It’s a bold reinvigoration that is true to the spirit of Star Trek, and worthy of the name. Yes, there are things many will likely quibble about (i.e. the plot rests on too many convenient coincidences) or question (the Spock/timeline question I posed in my earlier post), and probably things here and there we would’ve done differently (I dearly wish Giacchino used the Trek theme in key moments that cry out for it), but overall it is a remarkable, even extraordinary successor to the ten films and six series that have come before it. I think Gene and Majel (both of whom it’s dedicated to, btw) would be thrilled by it.
And here’s why: We all knew it was only a matter of time before a new cast inherited the iconic roles of these beloved characters, just as has happened in so many other instances (Bond, Batman, etc.). In fact, it’s rather remarkable it took this long, and the filmmakers found a rather ingenious (if not quite perfect) way to do it. The cast absolutely shines, and the characters ring true — both in terms of performances, and as written roles. This is the film’s biggest and most important achievement, and really a joy to behold. Pine, Quinto, Urban and Saldana are the stand-outs in the juiciest roles as Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Uhura, and are all absolutely wonderful, as is Greenwood as Pike and Pegg as Scotty (who’s brilliantly hilarious, in the best possible way). Cho and Yelchin are also good, though their Sulu and Chekov seem somewhat less interconnected with the rest (and maybe Yelchin’s tad cartoony, but endearingly so). Recasting Bond or Batman is one thing — literally one thing, recasting a single iconic character — but recasting our entire “magnificent seven” crew (plus Pike, Sarek and Amanda) this brilliantly is something of a miracle. We fans are extraordinarily lucky, as it could’ve all too easily not worked as well, or at all.
So if the Supreme Court happens to be reading, you have my sincere and humble gratitude. And I hope you can excuse (if not necessarily indulge) the question I posed about how you handled the timeline.
And let’s face it.
WHY IS PRIME SPOCK STILL ALIVE?
Aside from being the token contrivance to invoke canon with the franchise (preventing this from being an official reboot, if defacto), his running around alive with everything he knows in this universe is a real problem.
Also at his age, at some point, Prime Spock will have to finally die. Does this mean we will have to live through yet another death of Spock?
#63 … I get the impression that until he met James T. Kirk, Spock himself (the elder) had no idea where or when he was, even though once he got the timeline right he was able to tell the story about arriving so many years after Nero did. I admit that every question I have about all of this wasn’t answered. If Vulcan were as close as depicted in the film, then there’s a double problem with the presentation … because Spock Elder was on the daylight side of his planet, looking up at the daylight side of the next planet over. Not only is that a physical impossibility, but as you state so is the close proximity. Even before Vulcan’s destruction, such a close planet would have long ago caused the core of both planets to break open constantly due to gravitational stress. With such gravitational influences, once Vulcan would turn into a Black Hole, the other planet Spock was on ( I can’t bring myself to call this “Delta Vega”) would quickly be drawn into the gravity well too.
I do wish they could have made some accounting for T’Pau. That would have been priceless. Admittedly, T’Pol would probably have been banished long ago from Vulcan, for she was so un-Vulcanlike.
Now it’s interesting that you mention the Guardian of Forever. Let’s just say for the sake of argument that this thing is going to be a 3-film series. All Nimoy’s Spock has to do is convince someone to get to the Guardian of Forever, stop Kirk from dying, bring the 85-year old (by then) Kirk back to Earth to do something to correct the timeline, and Star Trek will be back to the uninteresting franchise it has been for the last few years, and everything will be back to how it’s supposed to be. But until then, sit back, enjoy the popcorn, and enjoy the ride. EVERYONE knows how much I hate this new ship design, and I’m with you there. But, it comes with the territory of where Star trek is right now.
Uhm, Orci and Kurtzman don’t write for Lost. As far as I know, they never have.
And as far as I’m concerned, the new Star Trek is amazing. It’s my favorite Trek movie, probably my favorite Trek *anything*. Whine all you want about canon and supposed plot holes, those boys wrote one hell of a story, and it became one hell of a movie. You miss the whole point. You’re overthinking this.
I felt like I was 12 years old again for two hours straight both times I’ve seen it. If I went for repeat viewings as much as I would like, I’d probably be flat broke. My face was sore by the end because I was grinning the whole time. Well, most of the time. A movie that can make me cry within 10 minutes? George Kirk bravely takes the ship on a collision course, and can see by a countdown on the screen how much time he has left to ask about his new son and tell his wife he loves her for the very last time.
Then, just as suddenly, I’m ready to jump out of my seat cheering when young James Kirk is running from a robotic looking cop in a classic Corvette blasting “Sabotage.”
“Is there a problem officer?” Classic. And pitch perfect.
Expanding themes from TAS about Spock being bullied as a kid because he’s different. Exploring what a Vulcan bullies would be like. Showing the strength of the emotions that brew just below the surface, and how a Vulcan child, having yet to fully mature, and having yet to fully cultivate his emotional control, and who is also half human, would have to struggle even more than the average Vulcan to keep his wild passions at bay.
Nearly crying again as an adolescent Spock, who is figuring out whether he should take steps to purge all emotion, needs to make sure that this won’t hurt his human mother’s feelings.
I guess I don’t really need to explain the whole rest of the movie. You all saw it. But I just don’t get you haters. In my opinion, that movie was damn good, and well thought out, and it was obvious how much thought and effort they put into respecting the preceeding 45 years of storytelling and those who love it. I’ve been watching Trek in one incarnation or another for most of my life, and this was the Star Trek I’ve always wanted to see. Someone finally took hold of it and thought big. And it works. If you are a Star Trek fan and didn’t like it, the only thing I can figure is you had to have gone into the thing wanting to dislike it.
51. Robogeek – May 14, 2009
“I would love Kurtzman & Orci to answer the biggest, most glaringly obvious question posed at the end of the film (and the film’s most egregious and mystifying plothole)…
Why doesn’t Spock Prime try (or even want) to fix/restore the timeline, and save Vulcan?”
Two reasons: The RED MATTER Device is destroyed, so even if he wanted to go back in time, he can’t.
Secondly, our story is not based on the linear timeline of Einstein’s General Theory of relativity upon which most movies about time travel are based (like say, BACK TO THE FUTURE, or TERMINATOR, both of which I LOVE). The idea of a fixable timeline has been a wonderful staple of sci-fi since the 50’s, but in reading about the most current thinking in theoretical physics regarding time travel (Quantum Mechanics), we learned about the speculative theories that suggest that if time travel is possible, then the act of time travel itself creates a new universe that exists in PARALLEL to the one left by the time traveller. This is the preferred theory these days because it resolves the GRANDFATHER PARADOX, which wonders how a time traveller who kills his own younger grandfather would logically then cease to exist, but then he’d never be around to time travel and kill his grandfather in the first place. Quantum Mechanically based theories resolve this paradox by arguing that the time traveller, in killing his grandfather, would merely split a previously identical universe into a new one in which a man who is his grandfather in another universe is killed in the new one. The time traveller does not cease to exist, although he is no loner in his own original universe (where he is now missing). Or something.
I thought it was pretty clear that this is an alternate reality, Uhura even says so when they all realise what’s happened with the Narada in the past. Just because they do it one way on Lost, doesn’t mean that’s how they’re approaching time travel in Star Trek.
Star Wars is a legendary, wonderful franchise. What’s wrong in having a bit of Wars in Trek? It’s not blasphemy to me, just borrowing something good. A lot of noble intellectual properties follow this principle. We don’t live in an enclosed, sealed world.
Hey mr orci- i just watched stvi again and they also show physical damage to the enterprise during a battle before the shields are down to zero so what u guys did there had aleeady been done and i bet there are other examples as well-already saw this movie twice and going again with more friends family soon! Found the tribble I want to find randy pauschs cameo next, anybody know which scene? Also looking for cawley and I heard some of majels computer was she also in the jellyfish ship?
#21. moauvian moaul
Not sure if this has been answered already, but the writers have already stated that the Delta Vega in the movie is not the Delta Vega from “Where No Man Has Gone Before.” It is a different planet, but they named it Delta Vega as an “Easter egg” for the fans.
64. Vapad – May 14, 2009
good point. i noticed that too.
mr. orci?
Since you’re here Bob, can you explain one of the bigger problems with the movie re. Spock seeing Vulcan from that planet, and why you called that planet Delta Vega? Was that just an attempt at a shout-out to the fans, not really considering the fact that you’ve just completely altered the position of a planet that was quite important in TOS timeline? It doesn’t seem likely that you came up with that planet name independently of the TOS episode, although I suppose it’s possible.
To summarize above on the time travel issue, going back in time is the equivalent of stepping into a parallel universe, according to current speculations based on Quantum Mechanics.
Starfleet and Spock, basing their decisions on this theory, would see that their is NO SUCH THING as “rectifying” the situation in a MULTIVERSE.
… and finally, my ace in the hole, a TEMPORAL PRIME DIRECTIVE.
#84 – Technobabble worthy of the likes of Doug Drexler, Michael Okuda, and other post TAS Star Trek alumni, but the movie speaks for itself – it is truly worthy of D.C. Fontana, and I really hope she gets out to see it – she not only inspired a lot of it, but if you wouldn’t have written this story, she would have -and trust me, that is the highest compliment I can give a writer.
#51 The average joe doesn’t see time travel that way, he or she who walks out of that movie theater thinks in Back to the Future, Terminator time travel theory, most people aren’t even aware or think in terms or know of Quantum Mechanics when they think of time travel. If QM theory is in the movie why isn’t it clear to the average joe?.
Glad to see the glowing shields dispensed with.
Also glad to see you guys ditch the old-style phasers where they’d stand there and hold the beam on someone for three seconds. Loved it in TOS but by the Data era, this kind of thing wasn’t exactly looking like John Woo.
#82 John Sullivan — All very well put, with sounder logic than I gave you credit for earlier, and I am indeed happy to sit back and enjoy the ride. ;-)
But yes, if Delta (coughcough) Vega is close enough to Vulcan that it can be so clearly seen with the naked eye, how come the black hole doesn’t consume it long before Spock Prime manages to beam Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise? (Great point!)
And like you I also wish we’d gotten at least a glimpse of T’Pau, but what I really wanted was a moment between Spock Prime and Pike if not a meeting, then at least a look of recognition on Spock’s face to see his old friend and mentor alive and well after over a hundred years. That would’ve been incredibly powerful and resonant — evoking the whole “needs of the many / needs of the one” question (Pike vis-a-vis Vulcan, old vs. new timeline). Though I’ve gotta hand it to Abrams & Co. for having him in a wheelchair at the end, in an Admiral’s uniform that evoked Kirk’s in TMP. Lovely touch.
(Quick tangent: I am very curious why this was Pike’s first mission on the Enterprise. It seemed weird and unnecessary, and I would’ve loved/hoped Pike and his “Cage” crew to have been on the Enterprise, then mostly killed off in the Narada Vulcan attack, then replaced by survivors they beam off other ships — i.e. Uhura off the Farragut — and hence _that’s_ how we get all our crew on the bridge years earlier than they should be. That would’ve been _awesome_.)
And yes, the existence of the Guardian of Forever is a tantalyzing potential plot device should the powers-that-be choose to address the whole question of Spock Prime and restoring the timeline, but I given Ellison’s lawsuit against Paramount over TCOTEOF that may be off the table anyway.
#92 – a Temporal Prime Directive that Spock Prime doesn’t seem too concerned about following…
Star Trek cannot be “influenced” by Star Wars, because Star Wars came into being because of Star Trek in the first place!!!!!! I don’t understand how people still don’t get that!!!! As far as Star Wars having more powerful ships and technology, I mean c’mon, get down to earth and be more realistic, which is Star Trek is all about. Of course Star Trek is sci fi and far from being realistic, but at least it’s somewhat promising into the future rather then your fairy tales Star Wars! I can make up a sci fi story where my ship could swallow 5 galaxies at once! Would that make even any sense? Those who prefer crap like that can enjoy Star Wars all they want. I like something more down to Earth with a bit more meaning.
P.S. Yeah, my only thought about the time travel thing was whether you ever wrote a scene in which Nero finds out it’s impossible to fix the timeline?
Since he’s a Romulan working joe, you’d think this would be on his mind–until, perhaps, he kidnaps Spock, finds out there’s no way to save Romulus and then does the madman thing.
#94
Fact is, the average Joe doesn’t think the way we do, about prime universe and so on. For him, the new movie is the base setting for Star Trek. Period. And this is exactly what Orci and crew wanted.
#95 “Also glad to see you guys ditch the old-style phasers where they’d stand there and hold the beam on someone for three seconds. Loved it in TOS but by the Data era, this kind of thing wasn’t exactly looking like John Woo.”
Oh yes, my non-trekker friends liked very much the new phasers. Glowing plasma bullets are much more exciting and dynamic than steady beams of light.
#83. Correct. They wrote for Alias when it was good. Thankfully they cannot be blamed for the worst series ending in television history – ”Fountain of Youth” my ass!
Just because someone criticizes something, does not mean they didn’t like it. At the end of the day this was a good old entertaining film, however full of plot holes that have to be explained away every bit as much as TOS and the rest.
This is brand new canon being created here as evidenced by the work being done on Memory-Alpha treating this film as an alternate universe, with all new histories and explanations. It is a testament to any film that the fans care enough to spend time trying to resolve the problems presented by the inadequacies of the film, whatever the reason, whether one likes them or not.
If there’s one single Trek fan who does not actually see this film and enjoy the ride, I will be shocked. Nevertheless, it changes nothing about the flaws which riddle it.
A question for Bob…
How does Kirk become a Captain so quickly? Seasoned officers at least had a few years of training before going to the top. He just sort of found his way there it seems without learning too much of the ropes and climbing to the top and starfleet didn’t have any problem with it it seems. Just curious…
Thanks
64. Vapad – May 14, 2009
“Even though the writers say that this movie exists in an alternate timeline, nowhere do you get that impression when watching the movie, even Prime Spock refers to Vulcan as his Vulcan from his past timeline. After watching the movie I was enraged by the fact the Prime timeline had been changed/destroyed. But coming online reading what the writers saying that it’s not the Prime timeline that has been altered, this was not clear when watching the movie. So I think the writers have failed in this area.”
2 things. First, see 91.
But more importantly, in the scene with the two Spocks, you may recall that Spock asks Spock Prime, “How did you presuade [Kirk] to keep your secret?” And Spock Prime replies, “He (KIRK) inferred that universe ending paradoxes would ensue…” In other words, he is saying that Spock Prime lead Kirk to ERRONEOUSLY believe that time travel worked like it has in the movies since the fifties, when in actuality Spock Prime knows there are no universe ending paradoxes in a multiverse. They are in a parallel reality, as Uhura said.
#53 RD
I was thinking the same, but then it struck me that the whole “red matter” thing is highly unpredictable – a “black hole” created from it can either:
1. anihilate entire star (single drop of red matter)
2. let two ships pass without damage into alternate universe (single drop of red matter)
3. anihilate entire planet (single drop of red matter)
4. trap a ship (big ball of red matter)
We don’t know exactly what the initial black hole (the one that allowed Narada into 2233 and Jellyfish into 2258) was. Perhaps it was something unusual that allowed the timeline to be split, unlike “conventional” time-travel (ie. single timeline that needs to be fixed) that we experienced in Star Trek so far.
To summarize: an alternate (mirror) universe does not preclude “conventional” time-travel. I’ve never seen the “Mirror universe” in TOS or ENT but this “Mirror universe” didn’t seem to preclude “conventional” time-travel, did it?
There’s alot of Trek fans that aren’t steeped in all of this like my mother, who saw the film and she was upset that the Prime timeline was gone for good. She didn’t call it prime. I had to tell her it was an alternate universe timeline that was created. You know she still doesn’t get it. She’s a smart lady too.
97. RenderedToast – May 14, 2009
#92 – a Temporal Prime Directive that Spock Prime doesn’t seem too concerned about following…
He and Nero were sucked into the black hole against their will. Nonetheless, Kirk calls him on it, saying changing things is “Cheating…”
#96 … it is quite possible that since we have IMAX (R) in the 21st Century, that Spock was watching a hemisphere-shaped TV screen in his cave with a blow-up version of the blow-in.
38. RD — You, um… might actually want to wait to see the deleted scene before making comments like that. Also note that the Narada wasn’t the kind of ship one could just take a part. How do you take a ship with self-generating capabilities apart, anyway? Also, I’m sure the Klingons studied it, and for all we know, their technology did advance. We don’t know, though, since it was never brought up in the movie.
#64: Having seen the movie 2.625 times I believe I’ve heard the term “alternate reality” at least once. If I’m not mistaken – coming from Uhura, to which Zachary Spock replies “Precisely”
When watching this film there, nowhere does it say or implied that it is a alternate timeline. It’s not there, and I think Bob is grasping for straws.
“99. Dunsel Report – May 14, 2009
P.S. Yeah, my only thought about the time travel thing was whether you ever wrote a scene in which Nero finds out it’s impossible to fix the timeline?
Since he’s a Romulan working joe, you’d think this would be on his mind–until, perhaps, he kidnaps Spock, finds out there’s no way to save Romulus and then does the madman thing.”
Interesting. I would argue that it’s equally possible that since Nero is from the future, he may be sufficiently acquainted with how reality works that he KNOWS there is no such thing as fixing the timeline… all he knows is that he watched his wife and world die as a result of the inaction/corruption of the federation. So he’s going to make the best of it by make those responsible pay not just for vengeance, but to rid THE UNIVERSE of what he considers to be a threat to the existence of his home world. And though he can’t ever meet his wife again, who is not even born, he can at least know that once she comes into existence, she will have A LIFE.
Bob Orci– love your work!
I’ve seen the film 3 times now, and that opening sequence makes me cry more each time!
I know what’s coming. I’ve seen it. It isn’t going to be different.
But still I cry. I’m a 45 year-old, relatively well-adjusted normal guy, but that just makes me cry like a baby.
Now, quit reading this board and get to work on our sequel!!!!!! :-)
111. Vapad – May 14, 2009
When watching this film there, nowhere does it say or implied that it is a alternate timeline. It’s not there, and I think Bob is grasping for straws.
Uhura says it, and I quote, “An alternate reality.” To which Spock responds, “Precisely.” And then Kirk and Spock debate it, with Spock telling him that Nero’s actions, beginning with the attack on the Kelvin, have set them on a chain of events that neither side can predict because these are alternate events. But I will agree that it goes by so fast that you may need to see the movie, with firends, 20 or 390 times to really catch it.
#105, IT DOES NOW! Bob Orci says it doesn’t work that way LOL!
However, to ignore the fact that Prime Spock never traveled through time before to restore timelines in ST IV among others, basically ignores canon, in which case Prime Spock could be from any universe, not necessarily the one we’ve been watching in syndicated TV and feature films for 40 years.
Therefore, the most logical presumption in order for Prime Spock to REALLY be Canon Spock, is to view time travel the way it was discussed when Orci/Kurtman first dropped this idea on the forum. We are following the same group of charaters from alternate reality to alternate reality as they travel through time and create new spurs with each incursion.
You can’t have it both ways. It’s either canon or it’s not.
With that said, Spock could just as easily employ his time travel tricks used throughout the series to save Vulcan, in doing so we would simply follow our cast of characters onboard the Enterprise into the alternate timeline in which Vulcan would be restored.
The only “BUT” here is this: in doing so, Kirk & the Enterprise leave their universe in favor of a new alternate one. In light of the QM theories, such a move becomes incredibly selfish. Perhaps this is the lesson that Spock imparts to them, that he and Prime Kirk foolishly failed to realize in their youth in the Prime universe were not really changing time but simply leaping from universe to universe, leaving the old damaged ones behind in their wake.
Sadly this literal view of time travel means we can’t really have any more time travel stories which are so much fun in Star Trek. More disappointing is that this self-serving contrivance for the franchise reboot seems to be the only actual science the film attempts to accurately portray.
Boborci, since you’re here…
Could you explain why a black hole created from a single drop of “red matter” can swallow a star, yet allow two spaceships to pass to the alternate universe without crushing them? Same thing with Vulcan – since the ships passed into alternate universe, should we assume that same thing happened with debris of Vulcan (ie. the black hole spit it into an alternate universe)?
#115: Still, I like my theory though, because it doesn’t preclude all the time travel stories in the Prime timeline!
#111 – Funny that you are telling one of the people who wrote the thing that they don’t know what they wrote or their own intention.
Okay guys, let’s explain this in layman’s term. IF it was all ONE timeline, now pay attention closely, this timeline would include Quinto’s Spock all the way down to Nimoy’s Spock. Now any change in the timeline would affect ALL of the elements involved within that single thread of the timeline, right? So if it was truly the case that this was one thread, then how does Spock Prime know about Kirk’s past from the other timeline? Wouldn’t Spock Prime’s memories had been erased about Jim Kirk’s father and everything else? How would the Jellyfish had been built? The Vulcan Science Academy commissioned it, did they not? Who is to say those Vulcans or that commission would even exist, especially after the near extinction of the Vulcan species. In fact, isn’t it plausible that Spock Prime would cease to exist because in the new timeline he may have died at some point in this new timeline and couldn’t perform that little ritual in “The Search For Spock” in which he is resurrected?
There is probably a number of things as well. But simply put, this is an alternate timeline. It plays out that way. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING to say that this is THE timeline from the past 40+ years of Trek that has been affected, but rather, a new timeline that was created.
Not that hard folks.
#96 … the timeline of the movie does become confusing. I think Stardates in this new timeline are Federation acceptance of Earth years, and not the digitally measured time where each day equals 2.737907007 units and each rounded year in the 400 cycle is 1000 units. Let’s just say that based on Chekov being 22 (Earth?) years in Season 2, and he’s 17 in this movie, that this movie takes place 4 years before Kirk WOULD have taken command in TOS. After all, you can change the timeline all you want, but birthdates are harder to manipulate. That means that Captain April’s maiden flight much earlier would have never happened in this version of Star Trek, and Pike’s mission by this math when Chekov would have been merely 4 years old didn’t happen on time. The Enterprise was built much later, and so was the Farragut – which Kirk was reportedly on not long after Spock and Pike visited – or would have visited Talos 4.
Even though there are many descrepancies in all of these things, they are no more serious – perhaps far less serious – than Admiral Morrow by most estimates 60 or so years after the Enterprise launch wanting to decomission the Enterprise because it is “20 years too old – she’s seen her time.”
So I have to only assume that the assumption will be that the vast majority of the target demographic …. clearly the non-Star Trek veteran won’t catch the perplexing problems in what is very hard to reconcile – the birthdays of the crew. Honestly, none of these things bother me. Calling a planet parked 16.5 light years from Earth in the Epsilon Eridandi system that does indeed have 3 real stars “Delta Vega” and parking it so close to a “planet that has no Moon, Miss Uhura …” ….. that one really bugs me. Vega (Constellation) is no where near 40 Eridanius, Epsilon Eridani, or Vulcan by any other name.
But there’s always “Q,” an invention of Roddenberry himself on his way out, who can wave a finger and do just about anything he wants to do to the Star Trek Universe, including moving planets. And even when “Q” can’t do it, the powers are delegated to Star Trek writers. :)
114 Uhura was commenting on the fact that Spock was speaking of an alternate reality created from the chain events from Nero’s destruction of the Kelvin. Not that they are an alternate reality seperate from the Nero’s Prime reality. At least that’s what I gather from watching that scene.
correction: Not that they are an alternate reality seperate from the Nero’s Prime reality. That watching that scene implies to me when watching it.
116116. ‘Jean-Luc’ – May 15, 2009
“Boborci, since you’re here…
Could you explain why a black hole created from a single drop of “red matter” can swallow a star, yet allow two spaceships to pass to the alternate universe without crushing them? Same thing with Vulcan – since the ships passed into alternate universe, should we assume that same thing happened with debris of Vulcan (ie. the black hole spit it into an alternate universe)?”
In our research, we read some highly theoretical, but nonetheless learned stuff from Kip Thorne and Archibald Wheeler, and they talked about the fact that it surely is likely impossible for anything to ever escape death at the center of a black hole, but that POSSIBLY one could survive the fall into the singularity in a ROTATING BLACK HOLE by somehow avoiding the singularity through the topography of space created by the rotation (if memory serves). But you still can’t escape back into you’re own universe, you would avoid the singularity and be ejected into another universe/time. So that got us thinking that of course that would only work with a sufficiently advance vessel capable of surviving and navigating the extreme forces or in some other unknown way taking advantage of this theoretical loophole. Think of the debris of the planet as getting sucked into a whirl pool, and Spock’s ship is a boat/vessel that navigates around the whirlpool.
Boborci — quick question if you’re still roaming these comments.
The ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ episode “Q2″ established that Kirk’s five year mission in command of the Enterprise began in 2265 and ended in 2270. Was it your intention to have the alternate Kirk gain command of the Enterprise earlier than Prime Kirk, or do you think Prime Kirk could have taken command of the ship by that time in the Prime Universe?
“…Deleted scene explained Gaila the Orion helped Kirk cheat on Kobayashi Maru”
I’m glad to hear that McCoy’s skepticism was unfounded. Kirk really was boning up on his Kobayashi Maru test.
> all he knows is that he watched his wife and world die as a result of the
> inaction/corruption of the federation. So he’s going to make the best of it by > make those responsible pay not just for vengeance, but to rid THE
> UNIVERSE of what he considers to be a threat to the existence of his
> home world.
Thanks for this. The second time we saw the movie, my friend and I argued about whether there was any way the Romulan Empire would save the Hobus Star the second time around, given the 129 year advance notice of this explosion–whether it was physically impossible.
115. RD – May 15, 2009
#105, IT DOES NOW! Bob Orci says it doesn’t work that way LOL!
However, to ignore the fact that Prime Spock never traveled through time before to restore timelines in ST IV among others, basically ignores canon, in which case Prime Spock could be from any universe, not necessarily the one we’ve been watching in syndicated TV and feature films for 40 years.
Star Trek IV is an interesting case in that it is MORE consistent with the idea of a multiverse in the following way: Kirk and Spock travel to the past, take two whales, thus creating an alternate timeline in which those two whales (and a Marine Biologist) are missing. Our gang then returns to THEIR ORIGINAL UNIVERSE, and the whales tell the probe what to go do with itself. In a way, this is a less irresponsible interpretation, because otherwise, they are necessarily playing loosey goosey with interfering with their present by taking the potential grandmother of the doctor who cures caner out of history and really changing their own universe! Kirk could in theory cease to exist by removing someone from the past. Not so in the multiverse.
cancer
#122 Boborci
Thanks tons!
One more thing – since they have the formula for ‘transwarp beaming’ and they can beam from Saturn to Earth – does this mean they won’t need starships in the sequel? ;)
123. Charles Trotter – May 15, 2009
Interesting question. Sounds like a good area of potential new fiction. I won’t bias it with my opinion.
Myabe your concept of time travel in this film is to complicated for the casual viewer to grasp, when it has to be explained online from the author. Or I guess I’m to dumb and all my friends and family to grasp.
84. 91. 92. Boborci — First off, I am sincerely honored and grateful you would take the time to respond. Thank you. But if you’ll indulge a respectful follow-up…
Yes, I’ll of course grant you the red matter was destroyed — and I won’t even question what the hell red matter is, or where it came from ;-) — but there are clearly any number of other well-established methods of time travel available and known to Spock Prime that he could employ, and has even used before himself (the Guardian, slingshot effect, etc.). Plus, my question is not merely why he doesn’t restore/repair the timeline, but why he doesn’t even express any wish/desire/need/compulsion/obligation/necessity to, when circumstances seem to so clearly demand it. (Dude, you blew up Vulcan, and killed almost the entire race.)
I will also grant you that your intent was indeed for time travel in the film to be “quantum” and not “linear” (and that you’re not simply retconning), and I wholeheartedly respect, embrace and appreciate that choice — but my question is not about your intent, but your actual execution (or, to put it in Supreme Court terms, your final ruling of record, i.e. the film itself). In other words, if that’s what you intended, why didn’t you / the film just say so? Because you didn’t.
Given that the most clearly established and highly regarded precedents for time travel in both Star Trek (City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday’s Enterprise, All Good Things, etc.) and Abrams’ other work (Lost) are Einsteinian/linear and not quantum mechanical, did you not also feel a particular/extra necessity/obligation to make it crystal clear in the film, and definitively manifest your intent? Because I’ve seen the film twice, and it pretty clearly indicates a single timeline has been altered and replaced with a new one. There is simply no evidence, information or argument presented within the film itself that the characters are in a parallel timeline/universe instead of a replacement timeline/universe. In my view, your intent wasn’t manifested.
Finally, if you can play the “Temporal Prime Directive” card, so can I — and i dare say mine trumps yours. It’s Spock Prime’s fault the timeline has been altered, so it’s clearly his primary responsibility (above everything else) to restore/fix/correct it at any and all cost. Furthermore, if you are going to claim a “Temporal Prime Directive” applies, are you not conceding that the timeline has indeed been altered, and that Spock Prime is not in a parallel universe but rather an altered timeline of his own making? I’m sorry, but you can’t have it both ways — even with quantum mechanics. ;-)
Thank you again for a wonderful, spectacular, and exhilarating movie. Sincerely. To get to spend two hours with those characters I’ve loved almost all my life (and missed for so long) was an incredible thing. Please know that my question/concern of the timeline issue is coming from how much I love the movie, and how much I appreciate (and am impressed by) everything you did right.
85. RenderedToast — Yes, I believe you’re correct that Uhura says they’re in an alternate reality… just like the Enterprise-D was in an alternate reality in “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, which replaced the correct/original reality until they restored it. That’s precisely my point.
I don’t see why Spock can’t reproduce Red matter. He is pretty smart.
130. Vapad – May 15, 2009
“Myabe your concept of time travel in this film is to complicated for the casual viewer to grasp, when it has to be explained online from the author. Or I guess I’m to dumb and all my friends and family to grasp.”
a movie should layers to be discovered, no? Although I really mean it when I say the movie goes by fast and I understand how things can streak by. On the other hand, the movies is designed to be enjoyed and understood just as well even given Kirk’s assumption, that time travel works like we all think it does.
133. Vapad – May 15, 2009
I don’t see why Spock can’t reproduce Red matter. He is pretty smart.
Needs 24th century technology.
Because Uhura says they are in an alternate reality, it automatically refers to a different one from the Prime one.I took Uhura’s line as it’s an alternate reality from which they could of been in if Nero hadn’t changed the future. Not to the degree it’s meant by Bob’s explanation. To me his explaination that her line implies doesn’t sum it all up for me, to what he meant it to mean.
129. Boborci — fair enough. Could you at least tell me why you chose 2258 rather than, say, 2263? I’m just very curious. :)
131. Robogeek – May 15, 2009
For those who care to truly analyze the movie, a parallel reality is clearly expressed both by the dialogue (uhura) but more importantly by the plot and how the characters behave within it (like the fact that Spock talking to himself doesn’t interfere with his own existence, etc…). However, I understand for some it is a distasteful or unintuitive concept, and for those people, the movie works just as well if they think of it as linear. Just like the movie is both a prequel and a sequel, depending on your point of view.
BobOrci,
My only real concern with the film comes near the end when Kirk offers an olive branch, and Spock — almost jokingly — questions it. Not to get all high-minded and what-not, but isn’t Spock’s reaction antithetical to the peaceful exploration mindset that Starfleet is supposed to embue in its members? If Spock had been flat-out angry about the olive branch, that would, at least, have made some sense, character wise. But to play it off as a joke?
(A few other concerns were allayed after reading about deleted scenes and lines — that should have been left in the film.)
Thanks, though, for a fantastic movie. For the sequel, I suggest something along the lines of “Errand of Mercy” and “A Private Little War.”
Reading Mr. Orci’s comments brings to mind one word:
Fascinating.
:-)
This is part of why I love Trek — the authors are interested in interacting with the fans.
All the more reason we should be happy that this new Trek movie is so successful.
133, but he has 24th century education, knowledge, to reproduce it. Unless he doesn’t.
136. Vapad – May 15, 2009
“I took Uhura’s line as it’s an alternate reality from which they could of been in if Nero hadn’t changed the future.”
What you’re saying is still true. From Uhura’s point of view, Nero has changed her future from what it would’ve been if he had never arrived.
#141
But Spock didn’t build it alone. It was built by:
1) Geordi LaForge (Countdown prequel)
or
2) Vulcan Science Academy (movie)
134. Boborci — I completely agree that a movie should have layers to be discovered. I think what I (and others) are saying is that there seems to be a crucial layer missing, which might be as simple as a single word.
136. Vapad — Allow me to simplify:
“alternate” = “different” (as in “altered”)
“parallel” = “separate” (as in “existing apart and concurrent”)
Yes, Uhura says they’re in an _alternate_ reality, i.e. one that has been altered, and is different than the original Prime reality. But no one in the film ever says they’re in a _parallel_ reality / separate timeline that coexists with the original Prime one.
That’s the problem.
Boborci,
I heard a rumor that some Gorn were originally planned to appear (notably in the Rura Penthe scene). Do you know anything about that?
Big fan of yours from Hercules/Xena days, by the way.
139. ety3 – May 15, 2009
“BobOrci,
My only real concern with the film comes near the end when Kirk offers an olive branch, and Spock — almost jokingly — questions it. Not to get all high-minded and what-not, but isn’t Spock’s reaction antithetical to the peaceful exploration mindset that Starfleet is supposed to embue in its members? If Spock had been flat-out angry about the olive branch, that would, at least, have made some sense, character wise. But to play it off as a joke?”
I can understand that. Entertainment value weighs heavily there!
142, but being in a new alternate reality, that isn’t spelled out, in your theory, there. It’s like finding a needle in a hay stack. I have to look so hard to find it, that here I have to talk to the author for it to be explained.
I’d asked Roger Ebert why he was so cheesed with the film’s black holes (I’m paraphrasing, but the idea was that it goes against everything we know about black holes and I asked what he knew about bh/singularities). My question got edited out but he answered it… (and I was being an as about knowing)
Q. So, to paraphrase: “Star Trek” is an action-adventure movie (rather than true science fiction, like “Knowing”?). Apart from grousing about script details, your only gripes seemed to be that this is mainly a set-up movie for the next one (which is a fair comment) and that it wasn’t as filled with hot air as previous installments. But it didn’t read as a thumbs down, “don’t see this” review. So are you telling folks not to bother? Or did you just want to stay far away from the “Trek” love-in?
Jason Tchir, Toronto
A. “Star Trek” was very wrong about black holes. (1) You can’t see them. (2) One in the center of Vulcan would swallow the planet and everything else in the vicinity, including spaceships. (3) If you’re being sucked into one, it’s way, way too late to get out. There’s a good discussion about the science of “Star Trek” by Discover magazine’s “Bad Astronomy” blogger, Phil Plait, who loves the film, here: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy.
What did 2 1/2 stars mean? They meant I couldn’t recommend it but it was funny, anyway. “Knowing” was a much better, more stimulating, more intriguing movie. The science in both films is preposterous.
134, Yes that’s wht I’ve been trying to say, thank you.
what*
Oh, and, you’re awesome if for no other reason than you don’t mind occasionally wandering in front of the cannon by coming onto these boards.
138 Boborci — I respectfully disagree. As I just posted above, no one in the film “clearly expressed” they’re in a parallel reality, they say they’re in an alternate one (see the distinction I posted above). And Spock Prime meeting Spock does not necessarily contradict that. (It’s sci-fi.)
And please let me be clear: I’d infinitely prefer for the movie to take place in a parallel reality instead of an altered one, and I appreciate that that was your intention — but my point is that that doesn’t seem to be the movie you actually ended up making. (Though it seems this disparity between your intention and the finished film was inadvertent.)
As is, taken on its own, the movie is in an alternate reality that has replaced the original reality — not in a parallel, separate reality.
But I would dearly love to see you address/correct that in the sequel. ;-)
Thanks again. It’s been a real treat to converse with you.
144. Robogeek – May 15, 2009
But no one in the film ever says they’re in a _parallel_ reality / separate timeline that coexists with the original Prime one.
That’s the problem.
And funnily enough we’ve been accused by some of dumbing it down.
Perhaps it could be clearer, but our goal in that scene is to get our scientists to talk as they would talk, and the fact that the Next Generation is still alive and well in another universe would not be their primary point of curiosity or concern. They would be concerned with what happens to them now. It’s more of an intellectual curiosity for the audience to ponder than for the characters, in my opinion. And as stated above, key characters behave in ways that can only be explained if they subscribe to the multiverse theory. I concede it could be clearer, but I will say it is exactly as clear as we wanted it to be. I’ll bet many more people enjoyed it than would’ve otherwise because they can see it either way.
Mr. Orci,
Thanks for a great film — as I’ve said here before, there’s nothing in the film that precludes possible explanations for all the questions.
Now I have some geek questions. So, as many have asked — is Delta Vega in the Vulcan system? If the drill stopped all communication on and around Vulcan then how could skydiving Kirk be in touch with the ship (especially with the cool graphics monitoring their status)? How far is Vulcan from Earth (not the three days as said in TMP)? Why was the fleet engaged in the Laurentian sector? And why couldn’t the E communicate with either the fleet or Starfleet. I just would have liked to see a line making this a bit clearer. Oh, and what were the Vulcan’s doing in the ark — praying? Why no contact/no escape ship?
Would have loved to have seen a line from Spock on Delta Vega. “There’s a federation station near here, or at least there used to be. I was heading there when I saw your pod land….” And I’d really wished Spock’s mom had reffered to him as “kiddo” in that pre-council scene — just to make it a bit schmaltzy.
Wait, one more — so was the creepy parasite related to the one from TNG’s conspiracy — could Pike’s promotion of Kirk be therefore part of another invasion. I’m hoping not — that episode was lame.
Exactly, it was never expressed they were in a parellel reality.
155. Vapad – May 15, 2009
Exactly, it was never expressed they were in a parellel reality.
I concede that the word PARALLEL is not in the movie.
154. Jason-
I bet the Vulcans (and Amanda) were doing something with the katras in the “Katric ark” while awaiting a rescue ship. They probably didn’t realize their lack of time.
That “creepy parasite” (Centaurian slug) probably wasn’t a neural parasite, given that I don’t think Nero would risk having a creature around that dangerous.
Hi Bob,
One of my concerns with the film is the total glossing over of the fundamentals of what the Federation is and stands for. There is no dialog about the philosophy of explorations, tolorance, etc.
“Humanitarian and peace keeping armada” sounds like some possibly very dangerous doublespeak that opens a can of worms about going after WMD’s, etc.
A second comment I have is that now with Vulcan gone there is a great chance to intelligently discuss what a people displaced from their home feel. This diaspora could be used with great care and offer commentary on the current state of post-colonial peoples. DS9 did something somewhat similar with the Bajoran people very well.
116, I remember they said in stellar astronomy that a black hole with a radius large enough would not tear someone apart … if the Schwarzschild radius is over say 300 km, a tiny ship or person could theoretically fall through without being stretched/torn because the gravity differences between head and foot wouldn’t be great enough.
If the radius was too much smaller, then the black hole would stretch/tear a person/object because the gravity at the foot of the person (falling feet first) would be much greater than at their head.
I’m going to pretend that the black hole that carried the Narada into the past was hundreds of thousands of km across so it makes sense according to my prof.
I could be wrong though, I didn’t get an A in that class haha
ah, I didn’t catch the katra part of katric. This explains much more. Thanks. Alas, I guess Ceti eels weren’t in season.
155. I…um…I’m….lost….for …words…….?!!
correction. words……..!!
#156… not even in the deleted scene where kid Kirk has to park the vette?
heh…er.
158. Matt Wright – May 15, 2009
Hi Bob,
“One of my concerns with the film is the total glossing over of the fundamentals of what the Federation is and stands for. There is no dialog about the philosophy of explorations, tolorance, etc.”
So you agree there is one line at least, even if you don’t like it LOL! You’re right that It is a slight contradiction worthy of being labeled Orwellian double-speak. The question I would pose is, does that contradiction somehow reflect a truth or perception about power in our times?
As for exploration, the last line of the movie mentions that. But you are right that this movie is not about the exploration of the five year mission, it’s about what happened to get us there.
Agree with you about Vulcan. Juicy territory.
After seeing the movie now – 6 times, 3 times on Imax, I have but one complaint, and I hesitate to use the word complaint because I loved the film however, if one person should be fired it would be the focus puller, especially in the seen when the two Spock’s come together. Every time it cuts to Nimoy he is badly out of focus, and there are several more times in the movie that the focus is out but other than that, going back for a few more times this weekend to help stave off A&D!
157. Tim Thomason – May 15, 2009
Bingo on the Katric Ark
Don’t forget that V’ger travelled through a black hole into the distant past in a galaxy far, far away. So this isn’t the first Trek movie to feature a crazy, time-vortex black hole.
But Bob, if this is indeed to get new people hooked on Trek shouldn’t they be exposed to an idea of what the Federation is? Or is that all going to be exposition for the sequel?
153. 156. Boborci — I appreciate that (though sadly we can’t settle your bet without venturing into a parallel universe). Please know that everything I’ve said has been out of respect for your intelligence and that of the film.
But dude, you gotta lose the brewery-as-engine-room next time! ;-)
154. Jason / 157. Tim Thomerson — Clearly those were Ceti eels from Star Trek II. (And you call yourselves Trekkies? For shame!)
RoboGeek did we just win? I think we just proved that Bob messed up!!!! GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
He conceded!!!
to his mistake. That what my friends and family got was exactly acurate. What was translated to film, was that the Prime reality is dead.
172. Vapad — Wow. Way to go misreading comments like that, mate. :)
168. Matt Wright – May 15, 2009
But Bob, if this is indeed to get new people hooked on Trek shouldn’t they be exposed to an idea of what the Federation is? Or is that all going to be exposition for the sequel?
Are you so used to speech: “SPACE, THE FINAL FRONTIER…” that it holds no meaning for you anymore?
Happy to elaborate in the future.
170. Vapad — SHHHH!!! ;-)
Nope I’m posting this on every site!!!
Bob please do elaborate, not sure what the rather glib reply was about. It has nothing to do with the exact quote you mentioned, but rather the general tone and philosophy of the entire Trek universe.
169. Robogeek – May 15, 2009
“153. 156. Boborci — I appreciate that (though sadly we can’t settle your bet without venturing into a parallel universe). Please know that everything I’ve said has been out of respect for your intelligence and that of the film.
But dude, you gotta lose the brewery-as-engine-room next time! ;-)”
Funny, you’re the first to mention that ;)
Vapad, wtf man?
179. BP — Vapad thinks he won something, but he just misinterpreted Bob’s comments. Pretty amusing, actually.
#169 — Oh, I know my Ceti eels (the image of one climbing out of a 15 foot replica of Walter Koenig’s ear shaped my adolescence)… this baby (Centurian Slug — thanks Tim) looked like a far creepier, less purple version of the lame TNG stop-motion, mouth-entering little guys.
Have I mentioned I loved the film. What I thought were holes actually bother me much less on repeat viewings. The story works — period.
179. Ok I won’t!
177. Matt Wright – May 15, 2009
Bob please do elaborate, not sure what the rather glib reply was about. It has nothing to do with the exact quote you mentioned, but rather the general tone and philosophy of the entire Trek universe.
Not trying to be glib… tone hard to convey in writing. It was our intention to keep this movie visceral and to minimize overt philosophizing or moralizing (although not covert), the way Kirk reacts when Pine starts to describe Starfleet. As is, this is the story of how they get to the place we know. Which is why the mission statement I was referring to comes last. And I think for a new audience, that would tell them a lot that us fans may take for granted.
And before I forget my manners, I want to thank you Mr. Orci for being so accessible :-) It’s quite rare.
Bob-O!
I’m watching TVH on blu-ray with your guys’ commentary.
Good stuff.
it’s “Star Trek Episode 1″ …..and how.
sorry, but it wasn’t good dude.
185. DJT – May 15, 2009
Yikes! Didn’t know it was out — sorry if we bore you to tears.
174. Boborci — While I should’ve gone to sleep hours ago (and was just about to but just couldn’t resist reloading the page one more time), I gotta ask something else since you brought up the iconic “Final Frontier” speech at the end of the movie…
Since, among other things, the movie was about Kirk’s (altered) origin and journey to the Captain’s chair of the Enterprise, did you not think it should end with us seeing and hearing him make That Speech for the very first time, as the perfect bookend/punchline/finale to the entire film? I have to admit I was surprised and disappointed that we didn’t get that moment (which I sort of felt the entire film was leading up to brilliantly). I was also a little mystified by the choice of having Spock Prime give the speech, since frankly that’s already been done to more powerful/resonant effect (at the end of Star Trek II).
Can you talk about this decision, and whether you considered (or even tried) having Chris Pine do the speech? And dare I ask if you ever considered asking Shatner to do it?
Thanks again for your continued indulgence.
Vapad spelled his name wrong, should have been Vapid, cause it appears that’s what he is:^)
When I was about ten years old, I saw the original series. I am now 47, and here I still am. As odd as it seems to many non-”trekkies,” that show illuminated concepts of honor and truth I could not have understood at that age otherwise. My first schoolyard fight was with a bully who was picking on little girls… because it was the “Starfleet” thing to do.
Today, I got to take my ten year old son to Star Trek. He always thought I was a bit daft, with all my reproduction props under glass – old show, cheap special effects… to him, “Star Trek” was older and more out-of-touch than “Flash Gordon” was when I was his age.
When we got out, we went immediately to Target. He needed a phaser – he bought it with his own money. And, for the next four hours it was non-stop questions about the Federation, Vulcans, black holes, antimatter, transporters…
You have him. Now… what are you going to do with him.
To paraphrase your own script,
“Roddenberry had a show for three years that literally changed millions of lives. I dare you to do better.”
What will you teach My son? I trust you. Don’t let me down.
184. Matt Wright – May 15, 2009
And before I forget my manners, I want to thank you Mr. Orci for being so accessible :-) It’s quite rare.
And before I forget mine, thanks for seeing the movie!
Boborci –
Good to see you around fielding questions. You’re a stand up character for sure.
Could I ask you define Red Matter? I found it particularly frustrating that we had a movie with its key terms undefined. I know that leaves your guys’ artistic license open, but it also leaves us as viewers cheated of a complete or coherent narrative. What is Red Matter made of? What is it’s effect? Do all the black holes it makes have time-travel capabilities?
#183 — I’d kind of wish you’d stuck to the “these are the voyages” relatively verbatim (with “new life” and “no man” and maybe even “five-year-mission” or just mission), rather than the more pc STII, TNG version. Just my own deal.
And I think this film suggests the Federation’s dedication to the greater good, much more than in some of the previous flick…
Oh, minor quibble – is the “Federation” the armada or is Starfleet.
189: WTF?
no no no.
You guys *totally* crack me up.
Thank you.
192. cagmar — I believe the technical definition of Red Matter is “deus ex machina”. ;-)
(Sorry, Bob — couldn’t resist!)
188. Robogeek – May 15, 2009
We certainly did consider all of the above as you would’ve. Ultimately, we felt that from a canon and fandom point of view, Spock Prime (Nimoy) had really made this voyage possible (literally within the plot and karmically through his support of the movie), and as such, he deserved to announce the “continuing voyages” which would’ve seemed odd for Pine to say since it’s his first real voyage. But we certainly debated it all at length . Fun stuff.
And good night1
OK last thing, I have a bit of a problem with Kirk being such a punk ass. It is a little hard to believe that this kid at 9 years old who is stealing cars and then getting into constant fights is suddenly moved by Pike’s speech.
The deleted scene with the reason for his rebellion at 9 changes the entire tone of the scene and makes him out to be less of an out-and-out asshole.
———————————–
Couldn’t Kirk’s father’s death inspire him to go to the academy?
I could even see him losing his way in his teens/early 20s. The 9 year old car thief (as-is in the movie) I think is too much. It would have been a much less angsty teen type of movie feel if instead it showed young James hearing the story of how his father saved 800 people, etc. and young James having a hologram of his father in a Starfleet uniform (or something along those lines) that he adored in his room. Then it is certainly feasible that in his teens he started to lose his way. It would make Pike’s speech actually seem more likely that it would resonate with him. It becomes harder to swallow that Pike’s speech did anything if Kirk has had a nearly 15 year history with being a punk-ass. We also like the cultural myth of the good at heart smart kid but who acts out – he just needs his talent recognized and his life starts to work for him. Part of proving that Kirk is indeed redeemable would be the scene from his youth, and it would also be a way to get in a bit more exposition about the Federation and its planets, tolerance for all life, etc. that is missing from this version of Trek.
A bit cheezy I know but I think Kirk is a little too edgy to be turned with one speech otherwise.
P.S. I just got the Blu-ray set for review here at TrekMovie, I look forward to hearing your commentary :)
Boborci — just wanted to say before I head off that I absolutely loved the movie. I’ve seen it three times and will see if in IMAX for the first time on Saturday. I can definitely tell you guys really took a lot of care in writing these characters. Great work, and my congratulations to you, the cast, and the rest of the crew for putting together such a great movie. I look forward to the sequel! :)
PS: See if you can try to work in Matt Decker in the next movie! Give him a bigger role than Chandra and Kovack, though, lol!
197. Boborci — That’s a lovely answer. Thanks again and good night!
Hey, #196. Robogeek , if they could define Genesis and tell us what V’ger was, and so on, they could certainly define red matter. And they should.
ROTFL they had to explain why Uhura ditches Kirk! LOL you don’t need a major in psychology to understand her choice.
As a child I always preferred Spock over Kirk, let’s say I felt avenged!
Mr. Orci. Swell that you were here. Especially at 4 am.
Anything you wished had been done differently? And do the (I think 4 now) “bad” reviews bug you at all? Thanks to all of you for making a fantastic film — for Trekkies and a general audience. I too would have liked to have heard Pine do the “Space” — or even Shat. But I loved the darned thing anyway. Look forward to seeing the Nero prison scenes.
My one dialogue wish — when Spock quoted A. Conan Doyle — I would have enjoyed McCoy saying “Well, you don’t say… Sherlock.”
and #84, Orci… I would have KISSED you if you actually put that speech in the movie! Dang it, man!
Bob, I had a fun time at your movie, but two things bugged me:
Firstly, Nero’s motivation was pretty weak. His planet is destroyed, so he waits around for 25 years to take his revenge on the guy who was trying to save it?
It would’ve been much more solid if there’d been, like, some kind of council meeting about how to save Romulus—something akin, perhaps, to what should’ve been more of a debate in the US about how best to deal with Iraq in 2002—wherein Spock’s idea wins out over Nero’s, and, then, Nero has a reason to hate Spock for his persuasiveness, obstinance, know-it-all-ness, being the smart kid that teacher always calls on, the wisened soul that everyone respects and defers to, or any other of Spock’s attributes that a feller in the shoes of Nero might blame for the destruction of his home and family, having secretly harbored such resentment even prior to the incident.
Secondly, after the dismal failure of Nemesis, which contained a climactic fight scene employing every cliche possible—the mano-a-mano duel, in the dark, on a catwalk, over a bottomless pit—I was taken out of the new film during the climactic fight scene at the end which used basically the same setting. I couldn’t believe you guys hadn’t avoided reproducing that collection of cliches from the abysmal Nemesis.
206 – the last thing the movie needed was council meetings, that would have seriously bogged down the pace.
#152 – “As is, taken on its own, the movie is in an alternate reality that has replaced the original reality — not in a parallel, separate reality.”
Refer to my post at #118.
#139: Sarek suggest to Spock to not try to control his anger. Nero is directly responsible for killing his mother in front of his own eyes, so I bet he has a beef with it, logical or not. ;)
@boborci: okay.. this might be a rather minor nitpick on the part of a nutty fanboy (;)) – what happened to the off-world Vulcans? Enterprise (which is technically still in place, history-wise, from what I gathered ^^) established some off-world locations for Vulcans.. what happened to those? ^^
#165
I noticed that too – there are quite a few moments with faces out of focus. I guess it’s hard with a steadycam not to sway a put and lose focus, even if you and the actor are stood on a mark.
By the way, did anyone else wonder about the turbolift as Captain Robau is heading for the Kelvin shuttle bay? The lift is going down, but the shuttle bay is above the saucer – shouldn’t it be going up???
Loved the movie by the way, despite all the little niggles. Seen it three times, and will see it in IMAX next week.
MORE!!!!!
Boborci -
I do have some things I would like to say about the film. I’m surprised at Ebert’s review because the things that attracts me to this film is similar to why I think he was attracted to Watchmen. I understood what was happening in Star Trek, but I don’t think one needs to be critical about all of it. Does it all necessarily matter? I loved the scenes on Delta Vega because they are extraordinary visual moments. I don’t care that it’s kind of strange that Spock happens to meet Kirk. Since the entire chase sequence acts as a kind of emotional digression, keeping our focus on the tense action, the Spock entrance came as a wonderful surprise. Nor do I necessarily care where Delta Vega is in position to Vulcan. Films are visual experiences, and these were awesome visuals. Rather than hurting the film, they served the film greatly.
Of course, I don’t want to walk a slippery slope, as one still needs to be critical. There are some stretches in the film. When Kirk gets promoted immediately to first officer, I felt that the film was hurt by it, as there should have been a larger survey of Kirk’s career in the service of character development. And if Delta Vega was in another solar system in which Vulcan could not be seen, perhaps it would stretch credulity. But for the most part the film worked because it’s a wonderful experience. I hope that the next film really takes its time to establish itself in a completely organic nature while retaining the pace, style, and character scenes that made this one so memorable. I’m also happy to see that Trek is not afraid to take risks. Later Trek really suffered because there was no emotional payoff – it was too beholden to its own excesses. But this film parted ways with that methodology greatly.
#211 Jacob “Films are visual experiences, and these were awesome visuals. Rather than hurting the film, they served the film greatly.”
I love this man :)
“Kirk’s coincidental run-in with Spock Prime on Delta Vega was example of fate trying to bring them together”
So Star Trek is a fantasy film all of a sudden?
Thanks for actually interacting with us Boborci!
#213 “So Star Trek is a fantasy film all of a sudden?”
“Fate” may be a mundane word for some kind of quantistic, cosmological phenomenon indicating a space-time continuum convergence. Some events are more probable than others. Sounds good to me.
Paulaner – Thanks. I like smart films, but I feel that visuals can be smart too. I think that too many people dismiss visuals as sort of vulgar and crude. They can be if done wrong. The film Torque, for instance, is just a gigantic mess of bad cuts and strange camera angles. Trek, in juxtaposition, is clean and organic.
Regarding the discussion of fate – I think that fate can be introduced in scientific terms. There is this entire quantum thing that can have the appearance of a directing force (or I may just be making something up). Science works better in Star Trek. When they tried to introduce science into Star Wars in order to explain the Jedis, it did not go over so well.
Mr. Orci,
So is Admiral Archer the Same Jonathan Archer we see from Enterprise or is it one of his children? also was the dog the Beagle we know from ENT or another?
Thanks for interacting with us! :-) Love the Movie, hope you can do as well at the next film!
I agree with that the film not saying that it is not a parallel timeline, and it just reveals itself as just an alternate timeline, it wipes out the Prime timeline entirely.
Anyone else think that “RD” needs to shut up?
I’m a Trekker, I loved the film. Its 100% canon, if also set in an alternate reality, Trek has always had plot holes in films and the shows, so what? I enjoyed the film, and many others have too.
On topic, good explantaions from the writers. =]
Boborci…
Is there any chance you could post the Shatner scene you wrote as it appeared in the script? I’m really curious about what dialogue you wrote for Kirk…
Would be much appreciated!
re 38 RD…. 25 years, No Nero?
Gotta agree with you 100%… the explanation is worse than the lack of explanation. And the lack of explanation sticks out like a sore thumb.
Too many holes in this movie. Waaaaay too many holes. And this judgement comes from a place of analyzina a movie on it’s own merits, not being hung up on random elements of Trek Canon.
Doug L.
Wow. Its almost as if there aren’t any other common themes/plot devices in any other science fiction/fantasy. There is other stuff out there besides Star Trek and Star Wars, right?
My friend linked me to this video and we both agreed that its just similar because it takes place in *space*. Lots of other films/stories have very similar plots – its all part of developing a hero.
I guess I really must have missed something because I’ve never understood the whole Star Trek vs. Star Wars comparison battles. I enjoy them both for different reasons.
I think it’s kind of extraordinary that Vapad is arguing about whether or not a line is in a script with the guy who actually wrote said line in said script. That’s basically the internet in a nutshell, there.
Loved the movie, Mr Orci, if you’re still reading. Thanks for making it what it was.
@ Everyone
I love that this movie can be enjoyed on various levels; whether you’re interested in accepting the story for what it is on face value or not.
There is something in there for just about everyone. My 65 y/o Dad who has never enjoyed sci-fi absolutely loved the movie. He described it as a “brilliantly executed family friendly movie that” that could easily be “described as a drama, comedy, action or science fiction” movie.
Tackling this project must surely have been the single biggest challenge in the history of Hollywood movies with so many obstacles to overcome.
Clearly the box office speaks for itself.
In my view, Bob & Co have done an job amazing at re-imagining this wonderful universe, ensuring that there will be even more great adventures for us to enjoy for years to come.
Bob, thank you very much for taking the time to interact with us.
Adam
You know, people always go on and on about the Death Star owning all Star Trek ships… but Star Trek has the Q. It’s hardly a fair fight.
Bob Orci, If you happen to get down the page this far I thank you.
I have a couple of requests…
1. Please do not look into bringing Khan into the new movies, we had it effectively take 3 films last time to get things back to normal, it would be a shame to only go over the same ground again.
2. There are some great ideas in the Original Series that could be the basis of a new set films like Khan and Space Seed originally but obviously under new circumstances.
Some of my favourites to look for inpiration would be
Balance Of Terror
A Taste of Armageddon (especially interesting after the events of Vulcan)
Assignment Earth ( the new crew could have their Voyage Home film)
The Ulitmate Computer ( although I’m sure enough ships were destroyed in this film)
The Enemy Within
The Tholian Web
Amok Time
Shore Leave (for laughs)
A Piece of The Action (for laughs)
And the biggies
Mirror Mirror
The Doomsday Machine
Although using either of these two could problematic
One last question about the new film, there has been made lists of things similar in this film that relate to the previous films or tv show.
One thing I don’t think anyone has picked up on yet was the way the Enterprise is dragged back towards the Black Hole it was like watching the new remastered version of Doomsday when the enterprise is dragged back towards the doomsday machine.
I thought it looked good whether it was an intentional nod to it I don’t know but it was a nice reminder of doomsday nonetheless.
Dudes, re: the transporter issue.
I thought they got onboard the shuttle at Delta Vega. Warped closer to the enterprise and then did the whole beamy thing at warp speed and that was what was so clever?
Waiting for a DVD release with all the lost footage included into an extended ‘director’s cut’… The scene of Jim stealing his father’s corvette just to save it from being sold by the abusive stepfather shall be in there. Well at least for my taste…
And as for the opening scene when the camera pans through the hull of Kelvin – someone here shook his head and complained it was too much like Star Wars.. Hell, yeah it was – and good so!
Those first seconds, where actually maybe first time from ST:TMP you could feel the mangnificence and might of a starship absolutely caught me. With all the radio chatter and sensor sweep sound in the background, engines humming… Overwhelming silence and darkness all around [just like McCoy said later on] Simply.The Most. Beautiful. Starship. Shot. In. Star.Trek!
Exploration at it’s best meaning shown! Like I was watching a screen version of an early 60’s sci-fi novel.
Even the uniforms of the Kelvin crew were perfect. Reminiscent of sailor uniforms, with those belts and sewings on shoulders… brilliant. And the struggle with the Narada – a 23rd century incarnation of a steam ship fighting a giant sea monster that just emerged from the depths!!!
#18 I aygree wid you. Mahn I rally hade thad stuv!
#229 topas
Agreed. The whole Kelvin sequence, from start to end, is magnificent. I was really stunned and breathless.
Bob orci
If the multiverse theory of time travel applies here, Spock prime being aware that he entered a completely new reality, then what is at stake for him there knowing his prime reality exists simultaneously safe and sound? Furthermore why should those familiar with the prime time-line care? Basically aren’t you asking people to be a little emotionally non-chalant with these characters by asking them to equally care what happens to both sets of characters? By this logic shouldn’t we still be pining over the ‘mirror mirror’ doubles in that tos episode or those from tng’s yesterdays enterprise? I truly must say I walked out of this film not caring about the fate of these alternates.
#228: I thought so as well, but did we ever see the shuttle actually launching?
Also, what about Saturn->Earth beaming
My Issues with the film.
Why is this film so illogical?
Why is everyone on board the Enterprise except Pike and the main cast incompetent and Sulu only seems semi competent (parking brake). There are at least several hundred other crewman and none of them are more qualified than a suspended cadet to be first officer. COME ON!
No one on board has combat training but Kirk and Sulu? WHAT?
Was everyone else studying xenobiology and had no time for hand to hand combat, wouldn’t that be a required course at the academy. Wouldn’t it make more sense for them to be the only ones experienced with orbital skydiving. The plot calls for everyone but the main characters to be fools or inept at their duties.
A 17 year old is given command for a brief time. Oh My God as annoying as many found Wesley Crusher at least he never took command of Enterprise D.
Actually with the exception of Robou and George Kirk everyone one in starfleet seems incompetent. The Fleet is massing in the Laurentis System, Why? Why doesn’t the Enterprise warn them about the attack on Earth.
No one seems to be defending earth. They didn’t have time to show one sfx shot of earth’s defences or at least mention that orbital defences have been destroyed.
Why does no one on Vulcan seem to react while they are being attacked, Amanda sees the drill beam but Spock finds the Vulcan leadership standing around a glowing white sphere doing nothing.
Why does every secondary character come off as moronic or as a simple plot device.
Why does it take ten minutes to get to from Earth to Vulcan but much longer to get from Vulcan to Earth?
Spock ejects Kirk onto a desolate dangerous world where he could easily die (What the brig was full?) and no one bats an eyelid or raises an eyebrow? If any other character in Starfleet in any of the other series or films did this it would almost certainly be a court martial offence.
Why does a cadet become the captain of the most advanced starship ever built? That’s like making a recent gradute of the naval academy commander of an aircraft carrier. To become Captain of a vessel an officer should be aware of all the duties and various roles his crew has to perform (Yes it’s the role of the first officer to “run” the ship but how can a cadet be expected to be able to know every department and all the various functions) It is just not believable.
Why does the plot drive the characters and not the other way round.
One of the things I liked about Star Trek is that it tried to be constinent and portray a believable universe where there were real world consequences (not always succeeding you had an acting ensign driving the flagship and Nog seemed to go through the academy in less than two years). I’m sorry but I just didn’t believe in this version of Star Trek. I commend Mr Abrams on trying to create a more lived in and real
World feel to this universe but none of these characters (the most important pieces in any film or series) seemed real to me.
A villian distraght by the death of his world returns to the past where his world still exists and doesn’t warn of it’s destruction? Romulans live just as long as Vulcans he still has a chance to meet his wife.
A villian whose confusing and inconstinent backstory is not even elaborated in the film but has to be read about in a comic.
Transporters can now beam you anywhere in the galaxy it seems.
Sure you have to suspend disbelief when watching a science fiction film but you should not have to suspend all logic.
Why is this film so dumb?
I just couldn’t believe in this film
Why is this film getting such a free pass from fans, pointing out plot holes is not nitpicking. Nitpicking is pointing out when a character states a starship is 20 years younger than it should be or mentioning the eugenics wars as happening 200 years after they should have. When a film lacks internal logic or sense it should be called out as being poorly conceived.
I’m not a hater I don’t wish ill on any of the makers of this film, they made the film they wanted to make and I congradulate them on it’s critical and commerical success. And I sincerely thank Roberto Orci for his continued interaction with the fan community and I can’t tell how pleased I was to hear that such a successful screenwriter/producer was such a huge Star Trek fan.
I did like parts of this film very much, the opening Kelvin attack was handled very well. The first time we met young Spock and then Quinto’s Spock were superb. Karl Urban is of course brillant and the first time we meet Bones is my favourite scene in the film.
These were just my reactions to the film and it’s seems to be a minority view so I’m happy that so many did enjoy this film. Infinite diversity in ifinite combinations after all should a be guiding principle for all Star Trek fans(and for everyone else on our planet). Maybe Star Trek just isn’t for me any more, this Star Trek certainly couldn’t be called too cerebral. For the fist time Star Trek seems loud and dumb to me. Maybe that’s what it needed all along, for the first time in a long time Star Trek seems to be be popular with mainstream audiences. And for the first time I really don’t care.
BobOrci:
//Kirk’s coincidental run-in with Spock Prime on Delta Vega was example of fate trying to bring them together//
I think this might be the most romantic thing, ever. Even the universe knows that Kirk and Spock are meant to be together. I can’t wait to see how their strengthening bond effects the Spock/Uhura relationship in the sequel. If there has to be a love triangle, I hope it breaks some molds and involves Kirk and Uhura competing for Spock’s attention.
Wow, I’m so upset I missed this debate with Orci. I work in physics and wanted to weigh in on some of the science faux pas of the movie. It’s cool that he mentioned Kip Thorn, he’s a cool guy and I’m a fan of his.
BUT: Here it is: you can’t through a black hole, cuz it’s not a hole! It is called a “hole” cuz it cannot reflect light, so it only looks like a hole! Also, a black hole’s gravity, while strong, is still limited by an object’s distance to it. So, if Vulcan turned into a black hole, it would only be the size of a gumball (the mass of a planet compressed to that size would most defintiely create a singularity) but in the movie Vulcan’s black hole was pretty much the same size of the planet. Anyway, the amount of gravity to Vulcan when it turned into a black hole should be the same at the distance where the Enterprise was…..
Also, is Delta Vega a moon of Vulcan? When Vulcan was destroyed, I guess Delta Vega could still orbit the new black hole.
The time paradox stuff is hogwash, but it makes for good sci-fi.
@ 223, You’re talking about Campellian models and archetypes – and that has some value here, but ‘The villain has a space based weapon that can destroy an entire planet and he uses it to destroy one of the main characters’ home planet’ is scarcely a universal theme. There are resemblances which go beyond the casual. That’s not a problem for me, btw, I love Star Trek (2009) and Star Wars (1977) but they have more in common than just a background of stars.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1189217-angels_and_demons/
As I see, Angels & Demons doesn’t get to many positive reviews so far, which actually no surprise for me. I bet it will suck as much as the Da Vinci Code, which was a total failure compared to the book. Plus Hanks just doesn’t work as Langdon. Unfortunatelly, people will probably still go and see it anyway, instead of seeing a trully good movie over and over again (which is Trek of course) !!
I use to think of myself as a mad Trekkie, but having read these posts i don’t think i am anymore. I couldn’t be bothered to rip the movie to shreads and anylise is it like this. Can’t Trekkies become “not ur fathers trekkies” and just enjoy the movie.
Poor Bob Orci and the rest of the team
One possible explanation for the lack of “universe-ending paradoxes” when the two Spock’s meet is that Spock Prime is a copy made by the Genesis effect. The original Spock died in TWOK.
you know Star Trek has been around more than Star Wars and if it wasn’t for Star Trek Star Wars would of never been thought of so I say Piss off with the Star Wars. I do like the first 2 Star Wars but everything after the Empire Strikes Back sucked monkey ass! Trek Lives!
The Kobayashi Maru can be any ship they frakkin want it to be. IT IS FAKE NOT A REAL SHIP (SIC). It’s not CANON that it is not a Starfleet Ship because, even in the FANTASY world of Star Trek, it is a FAKE SHIP.
Geeeez. It made you Wince that a FAKE SHIP (to the characters it doesnt exist) is not exactly how it was in Khan? Who’s to say they didnt make it a civilian ship in Kobayashi Maru V2.0
I am shaking my head and rolling my eyes.
Wolverine’s memory loss from an adamantium head shot???????
Kirk is an overconfident, flamboyant college jock???
Can’t wait to see McG screw up the Terminator mythos next week. Lousy summer movie season thus far….
#239
I totally agree with your post… it’s very gracious of Bob Orci to even come here to entertain these questions.
Bob Orci.
I really admire your patience with this rowdy crew. I personally think you are going above and beyond what writers of any other franchise would do to explain things to admittedly quite strict interpretations of this franchise. A franchise which strove to contradict itself in what a lot of people consider “canon”.
#229. One of my first thoughts after seeing the movie for the first time was, no kidding, “I can’t wait until the DVD comes out so I can see all the deleted scenes.” I sensed there were more than a few, including Spock’s birth.
As for the canon inconsistencies & plot holes, we can all nitpick until the cows come home. It isn’t a perfect movie by any stretch. But it is a massive load of fun. And I, for one, hugely enjoyed all the cute nods given to the original series. Even the way Kirk crossed his legs in that final bridge scene made my heart leap — it’s Pine’s single most Shatneresque moment.
The kirk flashback really lacked substance. Just Jim driving a car listening to loud music. Spock’s was amazing. Really well done. I wasn’t left with more questions. I hope more footage is available on the DVD. Kirk needed to have more of a story. I guess it could be said that the bar scene fill the gap. Would have been great to see more conflict.
#244:
I think the fans should stop yapping about all little things and let Mr Orci and Co get on and write the next adventure
Thank You. I hate time travel.
48. Vapad – May 14, 2009
#44 Restoring the timeline? :p
#246 – I think his “Stop it!” (after the nth injection by McCoy) was a much better shatnerism!
Way back in 1977 when Obi Wan felt the destruction of Alderaan as if millions of people had cried out all at once…., I said…
RIPOFF!
Still, I love Star Wars (and no, I don’t bloody call it Episode IV) and watched the Empire Strikes Back with a grin plastered to my face.
But it seemed for both Star Wars and Star Trek the joy and the fun had been missing for some time, especially in the Star Wars prequels, whose only goal was to end with a galaxy in despair.
As for the lofty and self indulgent title of the Supreme Court, I feel they made some bad calls. If you want your facts vetted, ask any geek at a convention or logging on to Trek movie. We always catch continuity and technical errors that are so easily corrected.
What’s funny about Delta Vega, for instance, is that Bob Orci stated that the decision was made on purpose to name it that as an easter egg for the fans, and yet it is only these same fans who would be outraged by such a misuse of Trek geography, to the point where we now have Trek geeks referring to the f***ing place as Delta Vega 2 in order to sleep at night.
And Bob, if you’re still out there: I know you guys turned in the script just prior to the writers’ strike and at that point it was effectively locked. As the director, JJ could only make changes through editing and deleting of material but could not add or revise the script. JJ had made comments about times during shotting, where good ideas had come up that could not be persued since JJ, who got his start as a writer, felt it very important to honor the strike. With that being said, can you elaborate on what you and Alex or even JJ might have changed, clarified, added had you been allowed to do so?
Finally, I’m interested to know how the development process is going with Damon Lindeloff in the mix this time around. Have you come up with the kernel of a premise yet? (That’s a yes or no question, no details expected).
Oh, and I know you didn’t write it, but congratulate your brother on the tombstone reveal in Fringe. That was awesome, as was the WTC.
And I guess the word was “pursued”. I always seem to misspell that one. It’s one of those words that looks wrong to me both ways.
Mr Orci – conratulations on a great great movie…was lovin every minute of it..and more imporatntly so was everyone else in the audience (even my non trek fan friends dug it)
if your still reading a refreshing non timeline/alternate reality query here:
I recently read the shatner scene outline that didn’t make it…was there any similar cameo role for Picard planned (e.g. in the flashback Mind meld scene – a glimpse of the Ent E/Picard ) or was it just shatner kirk?
i guess all that TNG era stuff was put in Countdown but was just wondering if any of the countdown Picard etc stuff was originally planned for the actual movie….(via flashback)
# 84
Bob Orci,
I honestly have to disagree about your timetravel mechanics explanation. Even if it’s true that Quantum theory might be the right theory about timetravel, it don’t work for Star Trek. Since TOS the timeline is considered as a linear process where you could go back and forth. Take First Contact for example. Picard and crew were able to watch on screen, how the timeline changend after the Borg travelled back in the 21st century. If that timetravel would have created an alternate universe, Picard & Co. shouldn’t even aware that something has changend.
The multiverse-theory form TNG’s “Parallels” had nothing to do with timetravels, so this episode is no good reference for the new movie’s timetravel. “Yesterday’s Enterprise” created indeed an alternate timeline, but that timeline get fixed, like the alternate timeline from First Contact. I know it’s a weird thing and a complicate matter, but I don’t buy, that it should be impossible to repair the timeline form the new movie, even if we pretend, that red matter-singularities creating an entire new kind of timetravel.
Temporal Prime Direktive. That might existing. Indeed, the Tribble-episode from DSN provide such a theory. But as Picard said in First Contact: “We must repair the damage they (the Borg) have done”. I guess, restoring and preserving the timeline is da must-do by Starfleet regulations. I think, Spock-Prime would have tried it at any costs.
The Red Matter. As far as I understand red matter is responsible to creating very big quantum singularities (not real black holes if I should consider the science of the new movie as real), that could either destory mass or transfer it trough time. But in the Prime Universe old Spock had done many timetravels before – without red matter. He only should have needed a fast ship.
Okay, that could be a bit tricky. His “Jellyfish” was captured by Nero and later destroyed by his younger (or younger alternate) self. But why he (Spock Prime) didn’t suggest a simple slingshot-manover to young Kirk? He even provided him with Transwarp-Beaming. They could have travelled back in time, sneaking abord Nero’s ship, stealing the Jellyfish and crashed it into the Narada, before Vulcan was desroyed.
That Spock Prime let his entire race (except for 10.000 people) die by a crime against the timeline is something that really bother me.
BTW:
No visible shield bubbles? No problem. 23rd century ships never had shield bubbles. The shields from TWOK, TFF oder TUC seem to work in layers, directly over the hull.
Ok,
i only read 115 or so posts and decided to say this – maybe it’s been said already – to Mr. Orci who hopefully is still lingering about.
i saw the film once and am still letting it ’sink in’. i intend to go tonight again.
were there things that puzzled and maybe even bothered me? yes. but i could say the same of the series and films.
But for Boborci to come here and read and respond to these posts in the elegant manner he has says a lot about the man.
first, he doesn’t have to bother at all. second, there are times when people are obviously unaware or simply not paying attention before they post (see 111).
but Bob addresses them with an amount of respect i doubt i would be able to muster. it would be much easier to become defensive and sarcastic when so many nitpick your work.
so heres to you Boborci!
Now get to work on that sequel! (and no red matter this time please…)
;)
I added some possible goofs on IMDb (pending approval):
1. At the end of the film, the Enterprise is in warp and barely escaping the black hole. When Scotty ejects the warp core pods, the Enterprise should have dropped out of warp and instantly get pulled into the black hole.
2. The effects of the black holes created by the red matter are inconsistent. The black hole made at the Romulus star remains open to suck in the Narada and the Jellyfish. However, the black hole made at Planet Vulcan instantly disappears. Both used the same amount of red matter. Consequently, when all of the remaining red matter is ignited on the Narada, the black hole remains open and tries to suck in the Enterprise.
3. When Kirk and Scotty are about to beam onto the Enterprise from Delta Vega, they are standing very close to each other. However, once they arrive in the water turbine area, Scotty ends up in a tank raised on a platform a few steps away and back, instead of materializing partly on the tank’s wall.
4. The Enterprise realizes that some “high energy pulse device” is preventing communications and transporters. Even Captain Pike instructs Kirk and Sulu to space jump to “land on that machine” to “get inside and disable it.” At this point, no one knows what kind of device it is. But Kirk immediately asks Pike, “Sir, after we knock out that drill, what happens to you?”
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVED THE MOVIE (and so did my wife) enough to watch it more than once in the theaters, and now awaiting a Blu-Ray release. Can you promise me that Kirk doesn’t get choked anymore in your sequel? From my count we have Spock, Nero, and Ayel, all within the last 30 minutes of the movie. I’m surprised by he wasn’t rolling his eyes by the third count.
To BobOrci,
I really commend you for taking the time to answer so many of the questions here! Even after the movie has been released, you continue to come here and post knowing that so many ppl want to do no more than tear up the wonderful movie you were an integral part of making. Not many ppl get the chance to actually interact with those responsible for making movies in such a public forum. It is obvious that your truly love and know your trek and want to listen to what the fans have to say, good or bad. I sincerely thank you and look forward to seeing where you take us next!
#38—”So the Klingons end up with a Federation Starship …”
What Federation starship?
“… AND a super advanced 24th Century spaceship and have the Romulans in a prison camp. So unlike Enterprise’s “In A Mirror Darky”, the Klingons make no advances in 25 years of their own technology with it actually in their hands…”
Who says they didn’t? We don’t even see any Klingons in the film. How is it that you have come to such conclusions?
“…but on top of this feat they actually get their ship back and manage to repair it to destroy most of the Klingon fleet to get away?”
I’m not sure 47 ships is “most of the Klingon fleet”, but they apparently do alot of damage.
“Why wasn’t the ship completely dismantled for its secrets like the Tholians did in “Mirror Darkly?” Or did the Klingons repair technology over a century beyond them, so it was in battle ready condition for the Romulan’s escape?”
You would have to ask the Klingons, but it probably had something to do with the Borg technology the Narada was enhanced with in Countdown. The ship may have even repaired itself to great degree.
“The massive plot holes in this explanation are worse than the question of what they were doing for 25 years. ”
The “massive plot holes” are a figment of your imagination, which was dead set on ripping this movie apart long before it ever came out. Since you admittedly liked Nemesis, well I’ll just leave it at that….
“No wonder they cut it out of the movie. No wonder it confused the audiences who screened it.”
I don’t recall it ever being stated that it confused audiences who screened it. Abrams needed to cut something out of the film to get it within the time allottment they targeted. There was no more to it than that.
Here is George Lucas’ thoughts about the new movie:
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/05/vulture_exclusive_george_lucas_1.html
#126 – I clearly went to bed too soon.
Thanks for offering an explanation about how ST IV fits into your multi-verse theory.
However, let me offer my admiration for your skillful ability to avoid the more pressing issues addressed in the question. LOL
ST IV does indeed fit conveniently. However, the other major TOS time travel episodes may not fit so conveniently. I include the link to Memory-Alpha which does a much better job of cataloging them than I could: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Time_travel_episodes
Clearly Tomorrow Is Yesterday causes all sorts of problems with the Multi-verse theory as they seek to avoid a grandfather paradox. I won’t dissect them one-by-one, but the biggest problem is City On The Edge of Forever, perhaps the most beloved of all Star Trek Episodes. Litigation aside, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY WE WILL EVER SEE THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER AGAIN. Unless you change your own rules, the Guardian violates all rules of the Multi-verse and therefore, Prime Spock could have never had that experience and VOIDS ANY episode where the Prime character’s timeline was altered, requiring them to repair it. Ultimately, for no other reason than Spock is acting out of character by NOT trying to repair the timeline or save Vulcan, he does not seem to posses the knowledge of time travel by any number of Prime universe methods.
What that ultimately means is you have all but admitted that Spock Prime is NOT CANON SPOCK, but some other Spock from some other parallel universe, meaning that THIS MOVIE IS NOT CANON BUT A COMPLETE REBOOT. Sorry, but you CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
We ALL UNDERSTAND THAT THIS MOVIE TREATS Time travel differntly than what has gone before, but if you erase the Guardian of Forever, you effectively erase canon. And for those of you who think canon are Tribbles and Admiral Komack and Suarian brandy, it’s NOT – Canon is the events that shape the characters and shape their past experiences to address their future perils. So THIS is a REBOOT. Frankly, the general audience essentially sees it that way – THIS is not your father’s Star Trek. All they see is an older Spock going back in time and helping the new kids get it together. He seems to offer nothing else of his VAST canonical knowledge of experiences from the Prime Universe. He’s a gimmick to launch the new series, much like the Nexus is in Generations.
Does this matter? Not really. I have been a major proponent of a complete reboot since this whole thing began. I am pleased that’s what they did.
HOWEVER, as I said before, I am disappointed that we can NEVER HAVE another time travel story in this alternate reality because they are a lot of fun. To have one is to call attention to the real problem which is how can you care about any changes to the timeline when the old one is tooling along healthily just “next door” in a parallel universe? The answer is, you can’t. Therefore. no more time travel unless it is an incursion into this universe by someone from an alternate parallel universe, or a story where the crew ends up in an alternate parallel universe and must learn to live with it, perhaps with doubles of themselves. Sadly, this takes away all of the fun of the Hollywood ending where the crew sets things right, because according to Orci, there’s no going back.
Then again, these guys are Hollywood writer’s. They can change the rules anytime they like and explain away the inconsistencies, as they have already demonstrated, with the best of them.
I finally saw the movie last night and had a great time through the whole thing. Yet I agree with post 234 and others. There’s almost no major plot point that, after you think about it for five minutes, makes any sense. Most glaring to me were the incredible range of transporters now, and how it takes five minutes now to get from planet to planet. All sense of time and distance was stripped from the experience. Anyway, post 234 and others have listed other questions like this, so I won’t go on other than to say that there are more holes in the plot than plot. It was a great throwaway roller coaster thrill ride popcorn flick — which is not bad — but that’s it.
#258 – there you go with the personal attacks … I liked Nemisis and you didn’t therefore … what? I’m a “nutjob”? (OK, I inferred that but stil …)
Also, I’m not going to look it up but, it WAS IN FACT STATED in an interview that the scene was cut because it confused audiences and they felt it was better to stay with the main action of the film.
I’m sorry you missed it, but just because you didn’t personally read it doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
And I really do appreciate the psychoanalysis of my personality from which you infer my inner motivations. You of course know me better than I know myself. Surely you are not confusing criticism with my “imagination,[being] dead set on ripping this movie apart long before it ever came out”.
OK, I couldn’t resist: HERE IT IS: Gee, if YOU were WRONG ABOUT THIS …
http://trekmovie.com/2009/04/26/jj-abrams-talks-deleted-scenes-find-out-what-didnt-make-final-cut-of-star-trek/
“Abrams … talked… about cutting the Klingon subplot…:
There was a big Klingon subplot in this, and we actually ended up having to pull it out because it confused the story in a way that I thought was very cool but unnecessary. So we have these beautiful designs that we’re going to have to wait and do elsewhere I guess.”
All right people…Angels and Demons can not beat us at the box office this week!!!…100,000,000 has been reached…$200 mil can be done!
Let’s all ….make it so!! I believe Wolverine is no factor any longer,so this coming week is it until Terminator takes a bite….let’s all make it count!!
I beleive Trek can be the #1 movie of the summer..I’ve seen it 4 times now and can’t wait til I go again this weekend! \V/…LL&P…
#14 you’re right, you DIDNT buy a ticket for star wars. that comment wasnt needed. JJ wanted to show the audience that this ship (the kelvin) is massive. it set up the shot of the narada staring them down and being 1000 times larger than the kelvin. also, didnt JJ say before the film came out that he really wanted to show the scale of these ships like its never been done. I for one loved the opening shot and didnt think of star wars, its about time we actually believe that these ships are huge.
oh and by the way, lucas could learn a thing or two from jj. his prequels sucked.
There’s a saying; if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.
Don’t tell people to stop comparing the new Star Trek to Star Wars. The comparisons are valid, and alarming.
#251
And, when Spock (now, Spock Prime) nearly fell to the deck after ‘feeling’ the ‘death’ of ‘only’ 430 Vulcans, light years away, aboard the U.S.S. Intrepid?
In an episode written in the 1960s?
1960s… before or after Star Wars?
#267 “And, when Spock (now, Spock Prime) nearly fell to the deck after ‘feeling’ the ‘death’ of ‘only’ 430 Vulcans, light years away, aboard the U.S.S. Intrepid?”
Yes, we have to remind that Vulcans have some kind of “supernatural” feelings about life, intelligence and sentient beings. In TMP, Spock “feels” V’Ger when it is light years away from Vulcan.
Hey Bob.
For the sequel: Blue Matter. You saw it here first.
=A=
I posted this on TrekWeb and MovieWeb… If you are brainstorming for a sequel, here’s my pitch:
As we know in prime canon, Robert April was supposed to be the first captain of the Enterprise. Since prime canon was changed all the way back to Kirk’s birth, there could have been some drama where Christopher Pike assume command instead, making April turn rogue and betray the Federation. He could then divulge classified Starfleet intelligence to Klingons, Cardassians, Andorians, etc., or he could pervert the work of Starfleet biotech scientists to create the first Borg.
How about a villain that’s just human for once? Not some super warrior of an alien race, or some other class of humanoid. Someone trusted from Starfleet who turns everything inside out.
Looking back, we have 1: V’ger, 2: Khan (genetically engineered human), 3: Cmdr. Kruge, 4: ?, 5: Sybok, 6: Chang+conspirators, 7: Soran, 8: Borg Queen, 9: Ad’har Ru’afo, 10: Shinzon
Just a thought…
I’d still say that the linear time-travel and the new one coexist. The new one would only be possible by red-matter-generated singularities. This way all previous TOS/TNG/VOY etc. time-travel stories can stay canonically intact with the new movie. I believe this is the only way we can have it “both ways”
261.
Pretty spot on. There is a little more depth and respect/nods-for-fans-while-still-being-a-partial-reboot-for-new-kids in this film than your run of the mill blockbuster, but you have to pay for it with plot holes the size of a dyson sphere.
***
On the coincidences:
Fate? Blech (has cropped up before in Star Trek, but I didn’t like it then either).
Movie? Still pretty good (7/10, maybe higher, going to see it again).
I would have preferred a more scientific version of blowing smoke up my arse (you know they did it cause it was fast, easy and worked in a cool monster/plato’s cave/excellent setting/oh-there’s-scotty-working-on-delta vega-like-he-is-supposed-to-be-moment-even-if-the-planet-isn’t-where-it’s-supposed-to-be), but oh well. It would’ve been cool if they worked a string theory, everything is connected in a natural and logical/scientific way regardless of dimension or time type of justification, but I guess they already filled their fringe science quota for this time around. Maybe next time they will not sacrifice rationality, or require us to suspend disbelief so much, for the sake of action pacing and dramatic surprise (who expected Spock to turn up HERE!?). I often find that with JJ Abrams stuff, he seems to like far-fetched coincidences masquerading as a well thought out plot (hey, I meant to do this all along!). He seems a very in the moment director that doesn’t consider how he’s going to sum it all up or fit it together until the end, so the payoff is always good, but the links in the chain are often mcguyvered, and it shows. That’s OK though, as long as that payoff is good enough. Nimoy was awesome in the movie, and the scene (apart from the retarded coincidence) was quite good, so I forgive him.
-P
Well, now we have the original timeline Spock living in the new alternate universe. Think of all the things he knows that can benefit the Federation. All the planets he explored. The Klingons. The Romulans. The Gorn. The Tholians. Prime Spock can help make the Federation all-powerful in this new universe. Prime Spock is going to be the litmus test on what’s changed and what’s the same in this new universe.
So there are three new black holes as a result of the new movie. The first one where the Narada first comes through, the one left where Vulcan existed and the last one near Saturn. Do these black holes still exist or do they close up?
Bob!
Thanks for stopping in and chatting with us, very cool. Wish we could’ve done this sort of thing back in the day when all we had was Starlog and had to wait for David Gerrold’s monthly Trek TMP updates…
@274: Look at my post, 256. What happens with these black holes seem to be inconsistent. Hopefully we’ll get an answer.
As long as we’re discussing alternate realities, why hasn’t anyone brought up the biggest question of all. On TOS, were Spock and Uhura doing the wild thing on the side, without anyone’s knowledge, or is this just an alternate reality thing?
Re: “George Lucas’ Opinion of New Trek Movie”
The effects were awesome! Worth every penny!
>B-D
#272. That’s about right. Except I am on record that this is a complete reboot.
Nevertheless, you are spot on about Abram’s “fate” as motive. Almost every single thing he has been involved with involves that theme, most notably in producing the mainstream series “Felicity”, “Six Degrees” and “What About Brian?”
In particular, because I do like Star Trek and did not want to be let down by a dumb ending, I had a concern after the horrible ending of Alias – a good series based on a great concept that in the end was decimated by the introduction of the fantastic “Fountain of Youth” destiny reveal. meaning all the good stuff that came before meant nothing a it was just a setup for this abysmal ending. I really like LOST too, but I am likewise concerned that after 6 seasons JJ’s gonna tack an equally insipid ending on it and reveal it has been aliens all along, like IJ:Crystal Skull and Knowing, both of which let me down after an otherwise fun ride.
Thankfully, he did not twist quite that bad an ending onto Trek, though the meteoric promotion of Kirk left me cold. Here’s hoping the sequel aims a bit higher.
Frankly, the coincidence and fate thing doesn’t bother me all that much. Star Wars was based on it and I loved those films. However, as you point out it can be very dangerous if the person who’s hands the story is in has not thought it out well enough. Though I agree, I never felt Trek was about fate, but more about facing life’s challenges and overcoming odds, a belief in one’s self and making one’s own destiny, if you will. This is a new wrinkle that Abrams has added to the franchise and a message I don’t personally welcome. But general film audiences eat it up. However, it suggests the loss of free will which I feel weakens the human condition and actually diminishes greatness in an individual. It’s the age-old religious argument, if God knows everything that’s going to happen to me, then it’s all pre-destined and what real control do I have over my life?
Re: 277
I believe this is alternate reality. You can speculate on whether the two had any chemistry or interation in the series. Remember the “Vulcan has no moon” scene? However, this film puts Spock into a particularly vulnerable and emotional situation as well as putting Uhura into a sympathetic and nurturing mode that did not occur in the prime universe, so my judgment would be that this could not have happened in the so-called prime universe.
Hi Bob, I said I’d give the movie a chance, and I did, and I thought the movie was very good! Brilliant in places.
The Delta Vega thing is easily explained. The person who named it was in a different part of the galaxy this time round due to the change in the timeline. He just named a different planet what he would have named the planet in the galactic barrier, had the Kelvin not been destroyed and taken him there ;)
Waagh waagh, too much Star Wars in my Star Trek. Boo hoo, there’s a passing similarity to another incredibly popular science fiction franchise, oh woe is me, the world has surely ended.
Good lord, I’ve never seen so much pissin’ & moanin’ in my life (scratch that, I have visited this site before). Star Wars was always the more cinematic of the two franchises, so if JJ borrowed a few tricks from the Old George Lucas (before he began throwing CGI diarrhea at the screen and calling it a movie) it can only be a positive thing. And George wasn’t afraid of borrowing from Trek, either.
#263—-Nowhere in that article does it say that the decision was made based upon reactions by audiences who screened it.
I saw an interview with him about that subject (it may even have been from a video clip on this site). He said that they had to get rid of some things in order to fit the film within the targeted time constraints, and that particular sequence (although they all liked it very much) was deemed expendable because it was basically venturing off from the main plotline anyway—when they wanted the story tyo focus on Kirk and Spock and not so much around the villain. He also said that this scene was the one he was most sorry about excluding from the final cut, and that it will likely be included (although not as part of the film, but a separate deleted scene) on the dvd release.
I personally look forward to seeing it then.
I too had a problem with minor plot holes, but there are two points I have to make here:
Firstly, Kirk jumps from suspended cadet to first officer, then captain, in the space of a day. That demeans the whole concept of ship captaincy. If a third-year medical student makes a great save in the operating room they don’t make him hospital administrator. If a third-year midshipman makes a heroic move in a battle they don’t’ give him command of an aircraft carrier, especially not if it’s the ‘fleet flagship.’ For every 10,000 ensigns there are maybe 100 captains. It takes time, hard work, consistent excellence and superiority over your peers to make such a rank. Just being lucky, or good, or skilled in a single situation — or even a number of them — is not enough. There is a gravitas, a credibility to being a commanding officer that can only be earned over time. The original Kirk had it – just barely – because he was such an amazing character. But he earned it. He was a midshipman, a lieutenant, etc. etc. He followed the whole road to make captain; it wasn’t handed to him like a lollipop because he was a good boy.
To just ‘give it away’ like this cheapens the whole concept. If it’s so easy to make captain then it must not be worth much. To me, this is the biggest flaw of the film.
OTOH, the question about ‘why doesn’t Spock go further back in time to rescue Vulcan?’ In this version of science fiction, changing the past does not change the present – it would merely result in a new, different, branched reality. Spock knows that if we went further back in time he’d save another Vulcan, but *this* newly-created reality with Vulcan gone would still exist. He is at peace with himself and accepts where and when he is. That makes sense to me.
Let’s be honest.
There are a whole host of story elements that were used in SW that have been used in films (lately), plays dating back hundreds of years, and in oral stories (the Illiad, for example) for several thousand years.
George bundled them up in a sci-fi story he called Star Wars. And, he deserves credit for what he did – and, scorn where deserved where it didn’t work so well (Ep 2, in places: the Anakin-Padme dialogue principally, makes me want to toss my lunch). But, the franchise known as Star Wars borrowed themes (story-telling, not auditory) just as Star Trek did, just as Forbidden Planet, just as ______ did.
284.
I have to agree the ease with which Kirk goes from Cadet to Captain really cheapens Captaincy in the Federation. Even though Pike and Robau are portrayed as competant, one has to wonder the quality of Captains if there promoting anyone in the span of hours.
I also think Vulcan isn’t destroyed. It got sucked through a black hole and it is existing in another universe somewhere. They just have to ‘bring it back’.
Re: 281 The ore ships only come to Delta Vega every 20 years.
That would lead me to think Delta Vega Prime has been around and operational since before the Kelvin incident, unless they’ve only had one delivery so far.
@284: Imagine the conundrum if Spock Prime went back with Kirk and Scotty (or just by himself) back onto the Enterprise, commandeered the ship from young Spock (considering they’re both captains, technically), then performing the slingshot around the sun to go back in time…
About the College Humor Clip —
Does this make Spock into Princess Leia? Yeah, there are some Star Wars similarities, but Spock is really the one that defeats Nero — not Kirk.
Bob:
The only thing I would change about the film is the promotion scene. I would simply have pushed the timeline forward to around 2264 to depict Pike handing over the Enterprise to the promising young Kirk. I still felt at that point that Kirk had quite a bit of growing to do before being handed the keys to the pride of Starfleet. At least we could have assumed that this would have happened over a few more years.
I don’t believe it would have lessened the impact of the scene, but would have lended it some credibility that is sadly missing there for me.
Moreoever, I felt a little bit uncomfortable that the young Kirk was nothing but vindicated for some of his more outrageous behavior. I would have liked to have seen a more significant moment of introspective clarity on his part that at least demonstrated him to have some understanding of the need for discipline and chain of command.
Otherwise, this is a wonderful movie, and you guys (all of you) did a fantastic job!. I haven’t yet had the opportunity to see it again a second time, but I will probably be able to get away from work early enough this evening to pick up the kids and get them to the IMAX theater tonight at 7pm (my first IMAX experience!).
@286: From what I can surmise, Vulcan is probably coming out the other end of that black hole as a long stream of rubble floating in space. It probably looks as bad as Commander Sonak did when he partially materialized during the failed transporter beam in TMP. Call me sadistic, but I wish they showed what did manage to come through on the other end. They could’ve called in Rick Baker back then to do the special effects. ;)
#283, semantics. It sucks to be wrong I know. You WROTE:
“Abrams needed to cut something out of the film to get it within the time allottment they targeted. There was no more to it than that.”
What you specifically indicate with your words is that there were no other reasons why JJ cut the scene.
THIS IS IN FACT WRONG. It was more than a time trim. He is ON RECORD as stating it CONFUSED THE STORY.
I admit I inferred “audiences who screened it”. This is because I am familiar with the editing process of feature films and it is highly unlikely that JJ made the decision by himself to cut a scene because it was confusing, tho not impossible. In all likelihood, the film was shown to “audiences” though not necessarily the kind of audiences you might infer. Rather, audiences of friends, colleagues, studio execs, etc. Collectively they would tell Abrams, it confused them and that’s how he finally decided to eliminate when making his time trims.
Regardless you are wrong in your statement, no matter how you try to revise your position on what you “meant to say”. Since you hold me to the letter of what you infer from my words, I can only assume you wish others to hold you accountable to face of yours.
@290: There’s nothing to REALLY suggest that the promotion to captain happened immediately after they returned to Earth. Sure, it would have been nice to put a “SIX MONTHS LATER” similar to what they did after Kirk & McCoy first took off as recruits.
I read the blog that mentioned how seriously the Kelvin damaged the Nerada on its suicide run but for me it poses more questions. If James Kirk can ram the Constellation into the Doomsday machine and destroy it by exploding the Impulse engines why didn’t the Kelvin obliterate the Nerada with the Impulse drive AND its Warp drive (antimatter explosion)?
Aside from that it explains why the Nerada didn’t go after the fleeing shuttle craft.
Maybe I’m rationalizing-away just a simple cinematic screw-up, story-embellishment, or a deliberate Easter egg/”fan Valentine” attempt.
I can see that the ‘Spock Prime watching Vulcan get swallowed by the singularity’ could just as easily be
(since it is shown in the context of the images via the mind meld between Spock Prime and Kirk Alt.)
**not** a ‘Wow…you can **see** Vulcan from the surface Delta Vega?’ but more of a visualization of previously-established (i.e. the five-letter “c-word”) ability of Vulcans to sense – even over immense distances – what is happening to other Vulcans?
So, Spock Prime isn’t sensing — by his eyes — the ‘death of Vulcan’, but, the mental image of the psi-sensed mass death of the Vulcan race/species — as conveyed through the mind-meld to Kirk?
#292—Saying that it “confused the story” and that it ” was basically venturing off from the main plotline anyway—when they wanted the story to focus on Kirk and Spock and not so much around the villain” is basically the same thing.
I never claimed that Abrams didn’t say it confused the story. I read the article too. I said that he never claimed it was based upon how audiences reacted after screening it. That was the point of contention.
“Since you hold me to the letter of what you infer from my words, I can only assume you wish others to hold you accountable to face of yours.”
Actually, you claim to have inferred it yourself.
“I don’t recall it ever being stated that it confused audiences who screened it.” (post #258)
Am I also to be held accountable for not recalling everything I have ever read? I was certainly accurate enough in my recollection to know that nothing was ever mentioned about audience reactions.
Pretty testy today, aren’t we? I guess you haven’t forgiven me for the “nutjob” response to your claim (once again) that the majority of us are viacom plants?
Lol.
Take a deep breath, RD. Sorry if I hurt your feelings yesterday.
# 258
Wasn’t it mentionend in “Countdown”, that the Narada was advanced with Borg-Technology? How about selfrepairing? Borg-cubes allways do that. The Klingons maybe had nothing to do with it.
Beside that, the prison-planet-scenes are not in the movie. So, I wouldn’t count that as canon, until these scenes are back in a director’s cut.
#294—-”If James Kirk can ram the Constellation into the Doomsday machine and destroy it by exploding the Impulse engines why didn’t the Kelvin obliterate the Nerada with the Impulse drive AND its Warp drive (antimatter explosion)? ”
I would guess that has more to do with the fact that the Constellation was “driven” inside the DM, and the DM’s need to feed on matter—which made the explosion of *antimatter* the proverbial “Kryptonite” in that situation.
#297—-I actually mentioned that in #258.
Did you actually mean that as a response to me or to #38 (to which #258 is directed)?
@294
1) Kirk Prime didn’t obliterate the Doomsday Machine (solid neutronium). He damaged its ability to function.
(I recall something written, probably in James Blish’s adaptation of the ep, that Spock and Kirk came to a conclusion that any mechanism generating the anti-proton beam –inside the DM — could not also be made of neutronium)
2) “Countdown” indicates that Romulan-retrieved Borg tech was taken by Nero after the destruction of Romulus (so, why a ’simple mining ship’ could have the ST ‘09 shown level of weapons sophistication).
So, the Narada may have been significantly damaged in G. Kirk’s suicide run, crippled but not irreparable to Borg tech, and unable to pursue all of the fleeing shuttlecraft.
51. Robogeek : ‘Why doesn’t Spock Prime try (or even want) to fix/restore the timeline, and save Vulcan? . . . but it makes absolutely no sense for Spock Prime not to do anything and everything he possibly can to immediately restore/repair the timeline (or at least express a desire/need to do so).’
Because he really can’t very easily. His ship reached the new timeline over two decades after the Narada made its own incursion into the past, so the universe was already completely different. If Spock Prime tries to travel into the future, he’ll be in the future of the new film universe.
If he travels into the past, he’ll need to go back to before the Narada arrives, then try to destroy it before the Kelvin reaches it, assuming he survives the risky trip to the past. What then happens to the version of him that fell through the black hole along with the Narada?
On an ethical level, in this version of history, while many people have died and many who should have been born will never exist, there will also be many new children born, who have great potential to do amazing things. There are people like Christopher Pike who are still alive and (more-or-less) intact this time.
It depends on your viewpoint: were Nero’s actions genocide (in other words are the people in ST09 ‘real’ or not?) or, to all intents and purposes, was he merely committing an act of temporal vandalism?
Are you saying that Spock Prime has the right to decide on who lives and dies in an entire universe? Does he have the right to condemn billions of people to non-existence in trying to create a version of history that’s a bit more like the one he comes from? Blithely permitting billions of people to die was something the TNG crew were willing to do. They were willing to behave like demi-gods in stories like Homeward. Spock, less so.
Also, in ST:FC for example, there was a Schrodinger’s Cat situation: the Enterprise-E was caught in the Borg Sphere’s temporal wake, meaning history when they travelled into the past was still in a state of flux and could have gone either way. The same goes for Yesterday’s Enterprise. That said, the timeline post-Yesterday’s Enterprise wasn’t the same as the one prior to that episode because Tasha Yar survived in the past and gave birth to Sela, whose hatred of the human race led her to instigate the Klingon Civil War.
Potentiallyt, he more Spock Prime messes with history, the more things can go wrong. What if he travels back and stops the Narada arriving, but, 20 years later, the version of him that popped out of the black hole collides with a ship carrying Jean-Luc Picard’s grandfather and kills everyone on board? Also, how many versions of Spock Prime could end up in the ST09 universe?
If Spock Prime changes history again, he potentially condemns six billion Romulans to death. If he doesn’t, six billion Vulcans stay dead. Who is Spock Prime to decide that and on what basis? That he’d rather the Vulcans survived and the Romulans die?
In the end, Spock Prime took the logical course of action and accepted that this is the universe in which he lives now: a universe full of possibilities.
My theory about his fate: he’ll still try to oversee the unification of Vulcans and Romulans. The events of ST09 might actually benefit relations between the races. He’ll ensure the whales are cloned in sufficient time for the Traveller to return. Then he’ll probably go out to find V’Ger and merge with it. ;)
#297—”Beside that, the prison-planet-scenes are not in the movie. So, I wouldn’t count that as canon, until these scenes are back in a director’s cut.”
Excellent point, but I still look forward to seeing them in the deleted scenes!
Mr. Orci, there is a raging online debate on the actual length of the new Enterprise. Is it 2,500 feet long, as noted on the Experience the Enterprise website? What is its actual length?
Thanks for your time — and for your part in creating a fantastic movie.
@301
My assumptions are similar. I’m hoping that the planet that Spock referenced at the end of the movie is actually Romulus and that they will integrate into Romulan society. They have have lost their brothers and sisters on Vulcan, but they still have all of their cousins.
#300
I read “Countdown” it was a good read, so I knew about the Nerada’s self repairing and learning capabilities. I was pretty invincible in the TNG era as it destroyed Worfs Klingon battlefleet. If I remember correcty (I’ve lent them out!) it could fire whilst cloaked.
@304: Integrate? I say it should be a full-scale incursion of 10,000 surviving Vulcans totally losing it and taking over the Romulan government. Nothing like starting a fresh, new war in a new timeline.
As I said before, since so many seem so confused about the multiple parallel universe concept, the next movie MUST revisit “Mirror, Mirror” in order to elaborate and clarify the concept of a “multiverse”.
Robogeek – I await your apology (#61 & #67) as Orci has since confirmed exactly what I said. I was able to figure this out just from watching the movie once, and “pulling it out of” anywhere was not required. Please remove your head from your “lower orifice” and man-up with a a gracious apology.
boborci – I can’t imagine that you are still around, but if so, please figure out how to get Quinto into a goatee for the sequel! I want to see the movie Enterprise in epic battle vs the Mirror Enterprise! I wanna see Zoe with a thigh dagger and 2-piece uniform! I wanna see Pine play EVIL KIRK!
#296, No Closet, you said there was nothing more to it than cutting the scene for time. So now you are mincing words. I extrapolated the words “audiences” and you made an explicit statement, that the scene was cut ONLY to satisfy time requirements.
Neither of us are 100% accurate here, but you really present your arguments with a superior air of authority, often at the expense of other’s viewpoints which are equally as valid. Goad me if you will, I will still not lower myself to call anyone on this site a name, no matter what they say or how much I disagree with them.
Frankly, I always take a breath before posting and unless someone has outright called someone a “nutjob” I always assume their tongue is planted firmly in cheek. I mean this is Star Trek, right, not some political rights activist site … it’s supposed to fun and silly, right? Or am I missing the point?
# 299
Uh-oh… my mistake…
Fascinating discussion, especially knowing that one of the screenwriters is a contributor!
I really liked the movie too. IMHO, it’s right up there with the best of the theatricals…but falls short of the very best because of a number of imponderables and coincidences in the script.
Most of all, I was bothered by the use of a time travel scenario, and I’m even more confused by it after reading Bob Orci’s explanation. Specifically, if he was thinking in terms of a “quantum multiverse” in which there is no point in “repairing” the canonical timeline, then why the hell is Nero bothering to destroy Vulcan in the “new” timeframe? By Orci’s own argument, Nero (as a 24th century guy) would know that this would have no effect on any of other Vulcans or Romuluses in any of the alternative universes–he would just be creating a new one where Vulcan no longer exists. Is he just being kinda of a quantum-mechanical prick?
All this goes the point that a few other people have made: though you can have it both ways in quantum theory, you can’t in screenwriting. When your home world is utterly destroyed in a horrific act of terrorism, people are going to wonder why nobody is going to argue for a rescue…even if one isn’t possible.
Nor am I convinced by the idea that time travel is impossible in the new timeline because the red matter is destroyed, and that Spock never considers repairing the timeline because his trip was accidental. I can easily think of one instance when the Enterprise was “accidentally” thrown back in time (TOS, “Tomorrow is Yesterday”), yet the crew figured out a way to replicate the accident and rectify matters.
As an aside, I was also bothered by some aspects of the “drilling to the center of the earth” thing. First, why would the Narada–a mining ship, as Nero says–be bristling with enough weapons to destroy a whole fleet of military vessels? Second, why is it even necessary to deposit a drop of red matter in the core of a planet? If a singularity is created, say, at the surface, I’m pretty sure that would do enough damage, if not rip the planet apart equally well. That just seemed like an unnecessary contrivance.
Not that all of this spoiled my enjoyment of the movie. It just made me respect myself less in the morning…
My biggest problem with Trek since the beginning has been the Abram’s camp penchant for (let’s just be euphemistic here) mis-direction. At first his team set out to pacify the Trek community by saying they would be true to the original. Then when the pictures started coming out, Orci & Kurtzmen came up with this elaborate quantum, multi-universe scenario and sort of hammered the science behind it. In the midst of all of this, Abrams is on record in interviews all over the place talking about how he wanted to make Trek more “real” and identifiable with the real world and a non-Trek audience.
Without going through each “mis-direction” one-by-one, suffice it to say, the movie turned out pretty much the way many of us thought it would. As it turned out Abrams totally “surprised” us with something that was completely different than he initially represented it. Fine. It is an unqualified success and the number of fans it disappointed is far fewer then the number it pleased, not to mention all the non-Trekkers it attracted to the franchise. Whether justified or not, such a result confirms for Abrams that every decision he made was right. EVERY DECISION. With that in mind, the sequel will most likely be whatever he wants it to be, with little or no input from the wish list of the average fan.
So who cares if it is so good, right? Sure, why not. But the reason I have problems with things that take me out of the movie as being unrealistic, and I’m not alone here, is because Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman so vehemently made their points about bringing realism to Trek, about dropping the ridiculous technobabble explanations which flew over the Trekker and non-Trekker’s heads alike, basing the story in “real” science, and making it more relatable to a broader audience. And the end result?
Abrams, gave us more of the same, re-worked in his particular vision. This Trek is as full of holes as the earlier Treks. The science makes no sense and to top it off, some of the leaps in logic stretch the bounds of credulity. For the average Trek fan, this is mostly expected. However, much has been made of the Kirk promotion in particular, which thankfully comes at the end of the film thereby alleviating the possibility of taking one out of the moment during the film. However, the fact remains, it is hardly more real than any previous Trek incarnation. In fact, for someone who actually serves in the military, it must be a truly discordant note against the milieu, which otherwise rings true.
Nevertheless, while Trekkers and mass audiences alike seem to overlook Trek’s flaws in light of its otherwise monumental accomplishment, this is the crux of the matter which disappoints me – I was actually expecting something BETTER than Trek had ever been. But really, except for significantly more action and effects than any Trek before it ever had the budget to pull off, how is this film any different? The story told in this film is no better than some of the best told throughout Trek. It’s just told better cinematically with greater resources and a faster pace. But it’s still full of the same old goofy plot-holes and techno-bable from those early days of low-budget TV. In fact, I would argue Abrams has traded greater visual impact, for some of the worst of Trek’s story gaffes. This is not a more intelligent Trek. It’s not a more “grounded” story. But it all goes by so fast, who’s going to notice?
But now at least we know what we’re dealing with. If Gene Roddenberry is thought of as a historical revisionist, JJ is the master – it’s not that nobody remembers what he said, but nobody cares! Since many of the earlier films failed to speak to the Trek base, nor the mass audiences, I do wonder what will happen if the franchise fails to address the Trek base in future installments and focuses more on a mainstream audience. Will the 4 decades of fans who made this movie possible in the first place “change” their expectations of what Trek should be, or will they take a backseat to a new generation of fans who care about none of the traditional things that helped created 40 years of film and TV and billions of dollars for Paramount? Will Trek simply become a fun, mass-appeal, thrill-ride, space-adventure to while away the long, boring Summer hours, with nothing truly meaningful to say? Only time will tell.
How is spock going to fix the timeline, lets say he travels back in time, he will only have one ship and he is supposed to take on the narada. Its not just that easy of going back in time he also has to defeat a ship by himself and if he tries to get more ships people will die and also change the timeline. Spock is going to stay and help the vulcans of this timeline move and start a new home. He knows his vulcun is still in the 24 century and he saved the,
#308—”Neither of us are 100% accurate here, but you really present your arguments with a superior air of authority…”
That’s in your head.
Nothing I have ever said on the subject suggest that I feel that way. I have a viewpoint. That’s it. So do the rest of the posters here. In fact, often the viewpoints expressed by others give me cause to rethink my own. I have no illusions of Star Trek fan grandeur.
This forum—for me—is one of opinion exchange. Do I enjoy a good “debate”? Yes—every bit as much as I enjoy a good “discussion”.
From Facebook any see this yet… Can’t say I saw in 3 viewings :( Means I need to see it more :)
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@310
“Most of all, I was bothered by the use of a time travel scenario, and I’m even more confused by it after reading Bob Orci’s explanation. Specifically, if he was thinking in terms of a “quantum multiverse” in which there is no point in “repairing” the canonical timeline, then why the hell is Nero bothering to destroy Vulcan in the “new” timeframe? By Orci’s own argument, Nero (as a 24th century guy) would know that this would have no effect on any of other Vulcans or Romuluses in any of the alternative universes–he would just be creating a new one where Vulcan no longer exists. Is he just being kinda of a quantum-mechanical prick”
People don’t always see the logic/illogic/futility of their lashing out. Sometimes, you simply lash out at whatever target you have available — even if it isn’t the one that was responsible for your anger.
(as a lot of women have found out to our detriment, as well as other groups)
In the story, even if it isn’t the Vulcans (alt) or Federation (alt) who actually were ‘responsible’ (in his mind) for the destruction of Romulus (Prime), they’re the only Vulcans and Federation he can loosen his desire for retaliation.
And, if the Hobus (alt) star does the same thing, then the theoretical play-out of the events (again, in the Orciverse) leading to the delay of the delivery of the Red Matter — remember, until the destruction of the Narada, he’s got possession of the Jellyfish and its cargo of Red Matter) to stop it – and a Romulus (alt) that has been able to thrive without an effective Federation for over a hundred years.
207. BP – May 15, 2009
—-206 – the last thing the movie needed was council meetings, that would have seriously bogged down the pace.—-
Nah, they could’ve just included a summary of what went down at the council meeting, during Spock’s expository mind-meld with Kirk.
They could’ve shown the council while Spock summarized the opposing points of view, why his had won out, and why Nero resented it so.
Whole thing could’ve been done in less than10 lines of script and 30 to 60 seconds of screen time, easy.
Wow, I see a whole lot of self-professed Star Trek fans trying very hard not to like the new film. And folks trying to tell the writer what he meant with his own writing is amazing.
I get that some of us just care so dang much, have had our lives changed for the better in very personal ways by Star Trek, and that’s great. I’m no different. But some of this raving, IMO, is no different than folks raving about midichlorians and Han shot first. (He did, if you ask me.) It’s a movie–no movie is going to 100% please 100% of its viewers 100% of the time. By and large, we’ve been handed a great piece of Star Trek revival, so it just saddens me that some folks don’t seem to be getting even a little bit of pleasure out of that.
Not that you shouldn’t think critically about the film, and nitpicking the details is what we DO, but at the end of the back-and-forth, I hope you all can let it rest and enjoy the film when you see it again.
For those that are bothered by the Guardian vs. the New Time Travel™, it might help to think of the Guardian as a Q-like device, that goes beyond a mere portal into the past. It has the power, on a personal level, to change one’s reality to conform to whatever changes one might make. That explains how the crew could suddenly find themselves stranded on the planet, with no Enterprise in orbit because the Enterprise no longer exists. Maybe it’s a deus ex machina to cry Q, but if it helps you sleep at night and reconcile all the different time travel stories, it’s worth considering.
Myself, I consider that Star Trek, all of the stories and series and movies, are ultimately a medium for telling interesting stories–some are scientific explorations, some are philosophical, some are just good ol’ adventure yarns. They happen to share a generally common framework of this starship exploring space, and these characters with this background. That they are not completely consistent with each other all the time is OKAY. If you can’t enjoy the story being told because the details from one story to the next are hanging you up, you’re missing the point, and the fun.
#311—-” At first his team set out to pacify the Trek community by saying they would be true to the original. ”
And I think they were. They did “honor canon” as promised, by not pretending that all of what we know as “canon” (ENT-NEM) didn’t happen. In fact, they make it abundantly clear that it did—prior to the incursion which alters the timeline.
They were also very clear early on that they had no illusions about pleasing everyone…and rightly so. After all, what it means to be “true to the original” is always going to vary among fans. Even getting two Star Trek fans to agree on anything except the fact that each of them likes Star Trek in one form or another is in itself difficult.
They expressed a hope that they would please as many as possible, and there is no question to me that they have done that. As enthusiastic as I have been about this film since I first heard that these guys were taking over, I am shocked at how well it is being generally received—-in all directions.
“Will the 4 decades of fans who made this movie possible in the first place “change” their expectations of what Trek should be, or will they take a backseat to a new generation of fans who care about none of the traditional things that helped created 40 years of film and TV and billions of dollars for Paramount?”
I recall a similar feeling when TNG first aired. My expectations of what it “should be” were quite different from what was presented to me, and for more than twenty years, I took a backseat to a new generation of fans—-most of whom embraced what it became. And, make no mistake, it hardly resembled what I had first discovered in 1970’s syndication.
Gone were the fantastic characters, the fistfights, the sexuality, the well-placed humor, etc. Gone was the “fun”, in my opinion—-and it wasn’t recognizable to me as the Star Trek I knew. Oh well. It was just a television show.
My point is that those people who brought billions of dollars to Paramount over 40 years were not a unified bunch of people to begin with. People have always moved in and out of fandom when it came to different incarnations of Star Trek….myself included.
But TNG did not solely depend upon the old guard fans, just as this version of Trek does not. New fans were added, just as new fans will be added in the next few years as well.
There is no fundamental difference in how this works now compared to how it worked then. It has been this way all along. Some “purists” couldn’t even stand the original movies, as they themselves were vastly different from the series.
Showbizdata.com is reporting that Trek did $5.63M on thursday leading to $104.63M total for US. This hit 100M before the second weekend officially starts!!!
I recall a similar feeling when TNG first aired. My expectations of what it “should be” were quite different from what was presented to me, and for more than twenty years, I took a backseat to a new generation of fans—-most of whom embraced what it became. And, make no mistake, it hardly resembled what I had first discovered in 1970’s syndication.
Had absolutely the same experience…
For those that didn’t like this movie or were blah about it, I recommend you see it again. I liked it the first time but loved it after the second. I had a couple friends that were indifferent after the first viewing but really liked it after the second time around.
There is so much Trek history that we all brought into the theatre on the first viewing along with our pre conceived ideas and expecatations . The second time, allows you to just enjoy what a great action flick it is and to appreciate the humor and the characters.
REMEMBER! Star Trek Came Out BEFORE, BEFOREE!!!!!!!!! Star Wars.lol!
p.s.STAR TREK will be #1 again this weekend! ill see to it! :)
- I want to see a TNG warbird with blue lights….and a real romulan..
Red Matter?
Hey, Bob, for the sequel, how about them fighting a villian who feels the entire universe is doomed to extinction and all effort is futile…….his weapon of choice?
What Does It Matter!
#322—-I am contributing to the cause tonight at IMAX (which will be my second viewing of ST09), but I don’t know if there is any stopping ‘Angels And Demons’.
I think Star Trek will pull in a very respectable 2nd place showing this weekend.
I would like to remind everyone that we can all watch the original cast in the original series any time we like.
I would also like to remind everyone that not everything on the original series made perfect, airtight sense. It did not.
Just sayin’.
Speaking of Trek/Wars comparisons… Star Trek on Facebook is having a sweepstakes, and to enter you must correctly answer the question “What scene in the new film STAR TREK features the robot ‘R2-D2′ from Star Wars?” Does anyone have any idea? I’ve seen the film four times and never saw R2-D2. Of course, I haven’t been able to spot Randy Pausch or James Cawley either, lol. And I was *looking* for them!
#326—-”I would also like to remind everyone that not everything on the original series made perfect, airtight sense. It did not. ”
Nor did it have to—-it was exciting!
:)
Oh, I just saw the same question posed in #314.
I guess that means nobody knows?
#318 Wrote: “They did “honor canon” as promised, by not pretending that all of what we know as “canon” (ENT-NEM) didn’t happen. In fact, they make it abundantly clear that it did”
This is a point on which I think we will always disagree. The fact that there are hundreds of episodes produced in the franchise out there and continuing to be sold, means it DID happen. But I think this film itself also makes it abundantly clear, that whether the previous Prime universe events happened or not, they will not figure into this universe. And as I pointed out above, even Nimoy/Spock by Orci’s own posts above, is not fully canon since many of his “Prime” exploits cannot be reconciled by the current film’s view of time travel (though Orci does not explicitly say this). In the end, for the new audience it does not matter if this film is connected to TOS/TNG or not. And as I have stated, for fans, canon is not merely a collection of references to familiar things contained within a universe, like Saurian brandy bottles and Archer’s dog, it is also about the experiences and knowledge that make up the people we see. If even Nimoy/Spock’s experiences must be discounted to fit into this universe, then connection to canon is merely lip-service here and is made by the thinest of fragile threads to tie it into the franchise.
Frankly, I am thrilled to be rid of the baggage that canon imposes. However, if Abrams intends to honor the old fans, then he will be generating brand new canon with each minute of the film he produces and should adhere to it in future films.
AGREED about TNG. I feel it spent too much time being politically correct than telling exciting stories. I am forced to wonder if enough equality has been reached between the sexes at this stage, in the same way a perceived racial equalization has taken place now that an African American is president of the US, that dressing women in mini-skirts when all the men wear pants has become acceptable again. There are only a handful of TNG stories I can truly sit through with interest. Aside from that, the technical and analytical talking has been mercifully attenuated in favor of action sorely lacking in TNG, not to mention there is nothing overly “preachy” about this new film’s message (if indeed there is one), and a blessedly complete lack of discussions about getting old.
hmmm. If it appears on screen (TAS regardless) it IS canon. Whether it is NEW canon, or old canon, it is an official Paramount Production.
@315
“People don’t always see the logic/illogic/futility of their lashing out. Sometimes, you simply lash out at whatever target you have available — even if it isn’t the one that was responsible for your anger.”
Well, sure…I take that as a variation on the “quantum-mechanical prick” option. By the same token, though, if Vulcan in the canonical universe is destroyed, why not entertain the possibility of saving it, in one universe or another? Why not “act out” in a positive way?
But of course this is all so silly. Such paradoxes are the reasons time travel stories don’t just violate classical causality, they play havoc with the conventions of drama. They should be avoided unless handled very, very well.
@312
Spock doesn’t need to defeat the Narada to prevent Nero from destroying Vulcan. He could potentially travel back to any point in the past he wants–make sure Nero is never born, say, or sabotage the Narada before it’s even launched, or whatever.
I noticed Bob Orci is still on these boards and I’d like to say something to him directly:
I was one of those who originally disagreed the idea of the alternate universe. “Lazy writing,” I believe is one thing I called it. However, after seeing the final product, I must admit that I was wrong. I see exactly why you did it and how it opens up our characters to other very interesting stories. So, though I (like others) have quibbles with certain parts of the film, overall it was damn good work.
I apologize.
Thank you and good night
#326: Yeah, I mean those episodes were written real fast…Prosecutor Ariel Shaw’s line of legal reasoning against James T. Kirk, for example, is pretty ridiculous even though “Court Martial” is one of my favorites.
332.If Spock went back to prevent the birth of Nero then he would no longer be the Spock that I know.
#330—-”even Nimoy/Spock by Orci’s own posts above, is not fully canon since many of his “Prime” exploits cannot be reconciled by the current film’s view of time travel (though Orci does not explicitly say this)”
This is the problem I have had with MWI of QM. However, as is also pointed out above, nothing which occurs within the film explicitly confirms that particular view of time travel. This is merely one way in which fans may choose to see it.
I do not.
I choose to view it in the same manner in which it is presented in TOS time travel stories, and fortunately, there is nothing within the film which precludes that. Orci suggests that this was intentional, so that fans have an easy out either way (good call, IMO).
Therefore, only the choice of an individual fan to embrace MWI of QM creates such a problem.
“In the end, for the new audience it does not matter if this film is connected to TOS/TNG or not. ”
Agreed, at least for the most part, although some mainstream critics have praised the filmmakers’ unique decision to create the advantages of a reboot without pretending that what came before never actually happened within this fictional universe. One could assume that some newcomers to the franchise might be impressed by that as well.
But it is true that this, for the most part, is only significant to established fans. Personally, I was very happy that it wasn’t an outright “do over” like Batman Begins. But that’s just me. I have been a self-proclaimed “canonista” for many years. I like that it is no longer so restrictive, but I am also glad that it was acknowledged by the story, and left completely intact in another fictional timeline. It didn’t have to be.
#331 – no one is arguing Canon (with a capital “C”). Paramount owns the property and therefore, it is what they say it is. And they say this new film is Canon (nor is it a “reboot”). Fine. The problem is, it disregards almost everything 40 years of TV & Film dictate as canon – the events and details originated in those productions which the new movie completely negates. And with the sole exception of Nimoy, it appears to be a complete reboot. That is at the root of the debate. It seems futile to argue the definition of “canon” when the objections expressed by some fans is clear, and Paramount’s ownership is unquestioned.
Re: 334
And Sam Cogley’s (sp)defense was pretty thin, too.
Also one of my favorites.
Now, if Spock Prime only had a DeLorean available…
…the worst that would have happened was that George McFly (oops… George KIRK) would have become an accomplished science fiction author, and Jim would have a hover-conversion pick-up truck to use to get green Orion women.
And, Goldie Wilson XI would be Mayor of Hill Valley.
324. Harry Ballz – May 15, 2009
Red Matter?
Hey, Bob, for the sequel, how about them fighting a villian who feels the entire universe is doomed to extinction and all effort is futile…….his weapon of choice?
What Does It Matter!
——————————————
Harry, I don’t think Al Gore would make a good Star Trek villain.
=A=
#336 wrote: “Therefore, only the choice of an individual fan to embrace MWI of QM creates such a problem.”
Agreed. Unfortunately you have the writer telling us how it works. With all due respect to Mr. Orci, I believe he is speaking as the writer and not officially on behalf of the franchise and therein lies the problem.
Again, this is not a problem as long as Abrams NEVER time travels within the films again. And depending on how long this series extends, it would be sad not to have a film that features it because they are generally a lot of fun. My point is that if time travel ever resurfaces, there will be this canonical baggage that Abram’s created to contradict anything but the MWI of QM they’ve hinged the whole universe on. However, since it may be claimed later that Orci was not speaking in an official capacity, but merely stating what he was thinking when he wrote it, they are free to do ANYTHING, including go back to the traditional way of viewing time travel, because as you say they have not discounted it. But as soon as they do that, then it raises the ire over the reasons Nimoy/Spock didn’t attempt to slingshot around the Sun or use the Guardian of Forever to restore Vulcan, if NOTHING else.
#338: Rights, sir. Human rights!
The best Trek has always been about those great character moments, which is why I love the new movie even if the time travel has some issues.
Box office mojo just put up this figure for Thursday: $5,608,298
Trek’s official 7 day total just surpassed Wolverines!!! Yes, Trek is back!
341. “ut as soon as they do that, then it raises the ire over the reasons Nimoy/Spock didn’t attempt to slingshot around the Sun or use the Guardian of Forever to restore Vulcan, if NOTHING else”
I understand and agree with your points about the film’s errors. However, I just don’t think they care what people think and they have no worries about theoretical corners they’ve painted themselves into. They will do for the next film, the same thing they did for this one: popcorn. It really is all about fast editing and action sequences for them.
No matter what anyone says, this film was not Trek. It was literally a new Star Wars film with Trek characters (as the above humor points out).
343. No doubt Wolverine’s low reviews also contribute to Star Trek having a better second weekend than it.
Yesterday my second vision of the film…. Absolutely worderful, loved every single moment!!!!!
Abrams Orci & Kurtzman and everyone who work on ST9, I would like to thank you in a very special way, bringing back the real spirit and soul of Star Trek – incredible job about every single character of the cast – after all this years of sad and boring movies and tv series is the best gift ever for all of us, so exiting for the future to come, with some brand new brilliant star trek acton!!!
The sequel could only be better!!
Ok, enough is enough, stop with congratulation, time to schedule my third vision of ST…
332., 335. Furthermore, if you consider the story of Countdown, if Spock could make it so Nero was never born in his own universe, then the Hobus star would have gone unchecked and more worlds would have been lost, including potentially Vulcan (Prime) itself. It was Nero who mined a portion of the decalithium which Spock then had converted to the red matter used to stop the supernova.
Of course, you could argue for the space-time continuum striving to balance itself, and somebody else would have mined it, etc etc. Who knows?
On canon (or Canon, for that matter): I still don’t understand the problem. One can consider that we have a total reboot (which, in many ways it is), or one can accept the Many Worlds idea, and know that Spock Prime comes from the universe we all know, and this new story follows from that in an alternate universe.
That the Many Worlds mechanic is different from how Spock has previously experienced time travel, and that invalidates the “canonicity” of the Spock in the film, is bogus. Bogus bogus bogus! If that were the case, than the canonicity of every Star Trek character in every series and film is in question. There are enough inconsistencies within each series, and between the series and films, that nearly each story must exist in its own universe! *
Ultimately, canon is up to the viewer. I think that a difference in how time travel is handled (which, come on, is a story telling convention) is a weak reason to declare that Orci’s Spock Prime is not canon.
*Which, of course, they do: the self-contained universes of their own screenplays. It’s fiction, folks.
Also, I want to point out Bob Orci’s response on #156.
Again with all due respect to Orci for coming onto these boards and elaborating, nothing he says is considered canon. The only thing that is Canon is what appears on screen. If it doesn’t appear, there is no official answer and regardless of what anybody says, can be explained within a film any way it may be later decided.
With that in mind, in #156 Orci “concedes” there is no specific reference to an alternate “Parallel” reality. Which means, the old “Prime” universe may still exist, or it may not, leaving the individual to believe whatever they wish. Since it’s a fair bet Abram’s will never go back there, it is unlikely that this issue will be a cause of further consternation for the fans either way.
Nevertheless, I’m not sure one can hold the franchise later accountable for what Orci says here and elsewhere. I’m sure Orci will fight for his viewpoint as stated here in future scripts, but in the end it may likely not be his decision, executive producer title notwithstanding. In other words, he can be replaced like everybody else and the franchise could again take a completely different turn. In short, it isn’t canon until it’s Canon.
332 He can’t stop nero from being born because he would have to do that in his own timeline and their is no way to get back to where he was without stopping the Narada.
I’ve seen the movie three times now. There are many things that deserve to be examined….shakey cameras …lens flares…shallow plot lines that you could drive a Promellian Battle Cruiser through…the steam trek engineering section….but please anyone who likes Star Trek and wants it to continue don’t nitpick this movie to death. This movie is fun..it entertains..its zippy and a hell of a ride.
Star Trek is back and it lives. I haven’t had this much fun going to see movies in a very long time.
#347 WROTE: “and know that Spock Prime comes from the universe we all know”. Not being argumentative, just making a point: We do NOT know anything of the sort except in our own minds. It is NOT CANON since it is NOT in the movie.
I accept that particular conceit because Nimoy is playing the part, and he played it in our universe. However, Nimoy is an actor playing a character and as such can be playing any parallel variant of the character. Since it is open for interpretation, I can just as easily assume he is not the Spock we know because he does not act like our Spock. His home world was just destroyed, yet it carries none of the gravity that such a horrible catastrophe would invoke. In fact everybody walks around in the film like entire races of billions of people and their home planets are destroyed every week. The final straw for me, regardless of how one views time travel in this film, is that the Spock we know, having been the champion for restoring the timeline over and over in his universe, doesn’t even propose the restoration of Vulcan. He simply accepts in in stride.
So for the time being, anyone can believe anything they bloody well like about canon as long as it doesn’t contradict what has actually appeared on screen. What one CANNOT do is assume information presented off-screen is part of canon, even if by the writers themselves.
Kirk’s coincidental run-in with Spock Prime on Delta Vega was example of fate trying to bring them together
I don’t buy that. Lazy writing. Come on Spock Prime and don’t forget Scotty. Perhaps nurse Chapel was also station on Delta Vega too.
“But as soon as they do that, then it raises the ire over the reasons Nimoy/Spock didn’t attempt to slingshot around the Sun or use the Guardian of Forever to restore Vulcan, if NOTHING else.”
Some fans could raise that question, but the suggestion that this is how Spock Prime should treat the situation creates its own set of problems too, and the eventual result could be far worse than it ended up being in ST09.
Regardless of whether an individual fan chooses to embrace MWI or not, travelling back in time always has consequences in Star Trek. It is just a matter of whether the consequences are acceptable or not.
When McCoy travelled to the 1930’s, history was changed. When Spock and Kirk travelled back to “correct it”, history was still changed. The difference is that it was K/S that made sure Edith Keeler died. That became part of the existing timeline from that point.
If Spock were to, as some would no doubt suggest, slingshot around the Sun to travel far back enough to save Vulcan (and this assumes that he could convince others to take on this risk with him), Nero would still have to be defeated again, and who is to say that he would be? Who is to say that the very same circumstances that allowed their victory could have again been recreated with similar results?
It could be that the more he tries to go back and fix things—the more he screws things up.
Such action could actually produce an even more negative result.
Yet another story solution is this:
It could also be that the singularity responsible for Nero and Spock’s appearance in ST09 created the path to an alternate reality—and not a window into the past (as would be created by the old slingshot effect). It could still be interpreted as though we are talking about two very different things—neither of which actually invalidates the other.
Fans will be creative in order to reconcile things which create problems for them—just as they always have. Fanon is, after all, something which has always been a big part of the fan community….and alot of fun too.
The bottom line is this. The MWI of QM is not a part of the story. What the author says and does behind the scenes that never appears on screen has never been canon.
I mean, who would want Roddenberry’s novelization of TMP to count???
Lol.
Not me!
#352—”Perhaps nurse Chapel was also station on Delta Vega too.”
Apparently not, or they would have beamed her aboard the Enterprise too.
“I don’t buy that. Lazy writing.”
I’m looking forward to your script proposition.
I’m hard-pressed to think of a Star Trek movie that does not rely on some rather outrageous conveniences. At least this time the authors suggest some explanation behind this—-whether you buy into it or not.
If you don’t—-then what makes it any worse than the very long list of contrivances and outrageous conveniences in say…TWOK?
242. Duncan MacLeod wrote:
The Kobayashi Maru can be any ship they frakkin want it to be. IT IS FAKE NOT A REAL SHIP (SIC). It’s not CANON that it is not a Starfleet Ship because, even in the FANTASY world of Star Trek, it is a FAKE SHIP. Geeeez. It made you Wince that a FAKE SHIP (to the characters it doesnt exist) is not exactly how it was in Khan? Who’s to say they didnt make it a civilian ship in Kobayashi Maru V2.0. I am shaking my head and rolling my eyes.
Calm yourself, Duncan. You completely missed my point. My problem with “U.S.S. Kobayashi Maru” is not that it’s a change from Star Trek canon (the new film, after all, takes place in an alternate reality) — my problem is that the very name is an oxymoron. I winced at it because it was a sloppy mistake (just like I winced at your festival of typos there).
I take it you don’t know Japanese, but the name “Kobayashi Maru” defines itself as a civilian ship (”maru” designates it so). So if Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci wanted to change it to a Starfleet ship, that’d certainly be their prerogative and I’d have absolutely no problem with it — but then they should have called it “U.S.S. Kobayashi.” Because “U.S.S. Kobayashi Maru” just doesn’t make any damn sense.
Sorry, but I just can’t help it that I’m smarter than you are. ;-)
221. Darren – May 15, 2009
“Boborci…
Is there any chance you could post the Shatner scene you wrote as it appeared in the script? I’m really curious about what dialogue you wrote for Kirk…
Would be much appreciated!”
One of these days!
The only thing that is Canon is what appears on screen
There is no Star Trek canon, as this continuing series has been discussing.
http://www.postmodernbarney.com/2009/05/there-is-no-star-trek-canon-part-ii/
227. David B – May 15, 2009
Noted. Will take under advisement:)
#355— I hope that last line was tongue-in-cheek.
#242 may have gone a bit overboard, but it is probably reasonable to assume that alot of us did not realize that—-the filmmakers of ST09 (and myself) included.
But if what you say is true, then it most certainly would seem to be an oversight on their part.
Perhaps a fanon explanation could be that the actual designer of the test (and I maintain that Spock is only presented in ST09 as being its caretaker—not its creator) was being ironic when he came up with the name!
:)
307. Odkin wrote:
As I said before, since so many seem so confused about the multiple parallel universe concept, the next movie MUST revisit “Mirror, Mirror” in order to elaborate and clarify the concept of a “multiverse”.
Robogeek – I await your apology (#61 & #67) as Orci has since confirmed exactly what I said. I was able to figure this out just from watching the movie once, and “pulling it out of” anywhere was not required. Please remove your head from your “lower orifice” and man-up with a a gracious apology.
Odkin, it seems that you’re the one who needs to revisit “Mirror, Mirror”. You’ll find that it has absolutely nothing to do with time travel, and hence is completely inapplicable and irrelevant to the new movie. You’re the one who’s confused here.
I would further recommend that you also revisit “City on the Edge of Forever”, “Assignment: Earth”, “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, “Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home”, “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, “Cause and Effect”, “All Good Things”, “Trials and Tribble-ations”, and “Star Trek: First Contact” — all nine of which gave the Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci ‘Supreme Court’ an overwhelming abundance of clear, consistent, established precedent with regard to how time travel in Star Trek works.
When characters travel through time in Trek, it’s always been within a single, alterable timeline. When characters travel to parallel universes (”Mirror, Mirror”, “Parallels”), it has nothing to do with time travel.
Again, I have no problem with their intent to approach time travel in a new, modern, non-linear, quantum mechanical way — my problem is that they didn’t actually do that in the movie. As Boborci graciously conceded around 153 / 156, nowhere in the film is it stated that they’re in a _parallel_ (separate) universe/reality/timeline. All that’s ever said is that they’re in an _alternate_ (altered, different) one that — given the overwhelming array of time travel precedent I listed above — we can only infer has replaced the original “Prime” timeline.
As others have pointed out, canon is what occurs within the episodes and movies of Star Trek. Nothing outside of that counts, or matters, or can be brought to bear on it — and hence no after-the-fact explanations of intent change the fact of what is and isn’t in the movie itself. And even Orci has conceded that it’s never stated in the film that they’re in a “parallel” universe/reality/timeline.
So no, Odkin, I will not apologize to you. But you’re free to “man-up” and apologize to me at your convenience. ;-)
#358—Hi Bob!
2.5 hours until I contribute another 40 bucks to the cause by taking 2 of my sons and a nephew to see the movie again (this time in IMAX)!
A&D will likely be a monster at the BO this weekend, but I’ll do my part to fight the good fight!
Bring forth the lirpa and cue the fight music!
254. CaptainRickover makes a very good point worth reiterating…
If Spock Prime is so readily willing to hand over Transwarp Beaming technology (which throws the Temporal Prime Directive argument out the window), why doesn’t he even think to mention the Slingshot Effect (or The Guardian, etc.) as a time travel solution to save Vulcan and billions of lives (that were lost as a direct result of his actions)?
This just strikes me as (profoundly) illogical.
#362—see #353.
Bob Orci,
was the design of the engineering section meant to be Similar to the design of the engineering section of a submarine ?
and is there a way to modernize the design and keep the submarine feel?
#243: I hear ya.
I was also distressed to learn that, by the 23rd century, rural Iowa will be producing douchebag yuppies. That’s _not_ an optimistic view of the future.
Still, I did like the film for what it is.
=254. CaptainRickover – May 15, 2009
# 84
“Bob Orci,
I honestly have to disagree about your timetravel mechanics explanation. Even if it’s true that Quantum theory might be the right theory about timetravel, it don’t work for Star Trek. Since TOS the timeline is considered as a linear process where you could go back and forth. Take First Contact for example. Picard and crew were able to watch on screen, how the timeline changend after the Borg travelled back in the 21st century. If that timetravel would have created an alternate universe, Picard & Co. shouldn’t even aware that something has changend.”
I don’t disagree that we are breaking with SOME canon in the way we treat time travel. However, we are doing so purposely, in order to have our theoretical physics conform to the most current and sophisticated theories.
Bob Orci:
Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.
I thought your movie was great. I don’t care about any nitpicky stuff. It’s hard to enjoy a movie when you’re looking for flaws, and really you can find flaw with anything.
Anybody can nitpick a movie. Very few people can MAKE one.
Keep making movies. It was one heck of a ride.
#362—”If Spock Prime is so readily willing to hand over Transwarp Beaming technology (which throws the Temporal Prime Directive argument out the window), why doesn’t he even think to mention the Slingshot Effect (or The Guardian, etc.) as a time travel solution to save Vulcan and billions of lives (that were lost as a direct result of his actions)?”
Because not only would they have to be successful in saving Vulcan, but they would also have to be able to count on being able to recreate the same set of circumstances that allowed them to defeat the Narada before. And there would be no guarantee that they would be successful in either case.
They could actually end up making things much worse instead. At that point (where Nimoy’s Spock emparts the future knowledge to Scotty and to Kirk), the objective is to make sure Kirk assumes command of the Enterprise, and gets to Earth in time to save it. They were fortunate to stop Nero and defeat him permanently in the process.
It should go without saying that they wouldn’t risk not being able to do the same thing all over again.
And holding up their efforts further by trying to convince the younger Spock to buy into the slingshot effect (which, in the original timeline, was discovered by accident later on) could have so delayed them that the Narada would have been lying in wait for the Enterprise in the Sol system (having already destroyed Earth)…and of course a head-on encounter with the Narada would likely have been the end of the Enterprise.
I really don’t see the flaw there in the logic, but you’re definitely overthinking it.
Time travel stories should come with a warning label:
may cause head explosions.
351. Come now, if an audience member is to assume anything when they first see Nimoy on screen, and then watch the mind meld sequence, then it is to presume that this Spock is Spock from Unification and previous. Or from ST:VI, if that is the level of their previous interest in Star Trek. I don’t think it’s fair to seriously say, “it’s NOT canon since it’s NOT in the movie” on that point. That’s like saying Kirk never really died because it wasn’t really Kirk from the previous movies and series, it wasn’t explicitly told to us onscreen in Generations. Am I misunderstanding?
Unless the point is that maybe this is a complete and utter reboot universe, and Spock Prime is just the future Spock from this other universe, who then goes back in time and winds up in yet another universe. I think Occam would have something to say about that. It’s a lot simpler and intuitive to assume that Nimoy Spock is Nimoy Spock. That’s what’s suggested onscreen, what’s definitely implied by Countdown, and flat out told to us by the screenwriter. Lines in the script spelling it out is not required here.
Your comment on Nimoy possibly playing any possible variant of that character actually speaks to my point about each screenplay truly existing in its own universe, when you get down to the truth. They are not always consistent with other screenplays even in the same series, but they are generally internally consistent in order to tell a story. We choose to, and of course are meant to, string all the stories together as a body of work, a mostly consistent canon.
“he does not act like our Spock. His home world was just destroyed, yet it carries none of the gravity that such a horrible catastrophe would invoke.” I think that is a matter of interpretation, as you suggest. I thought he presented a terrific sadness, considering that a) he’s half-Vulcan and b) he is tremendously experienced, has seen an awful lot of tragedy in his lifetime, and brings some wisdom and almost resignation to the event. As for everyone else’s behavior, there’s something to be said for being in shock. I don’t need to mention how we can all relate to that one.
Finally, perhaps Spock has come to the wisdom that it is folly to return to the past in order to change the future. It’s been a long time since ST:IV, and even then the mission wasn’t to change the past, it was to obtain something to change the present. No, I guess it’s not on screen so it’s not “canon,” but there is reasonable room for us, the audience, to presume that he has a reason for his inaction in this regard, if it even occurs to us. I’m a pretty serious fan, and it didn’t occur to me to question it until reading the idea here.
#369—”Finally, perhaps Spock has come to the wisdom that it is folly to return to the past in order to change the future. It’s been a long time since ST:IV, and even then the mission wasn’t to change the past, it was to obtain something to change the present. ”
Good point, and it definitely falls in line with what I have suggested in posts #353 and #368.
There are plenty of reasons for Spock to logically deduce that changing the past is not a good option here, and neither is offering up the necessary knowledge for others to do so (slingshot effect calculations).
And it bears noting that it would be up to Spock alone to empart such knowledge or not, as it was discovered by accident in 2267 in the previous timeline—and again—there is plenty of reason not to do so, and equally plentiful reason for him to stay and help pick up the pieces there.
Bob—was there ever any consideration to pushing the timeline forward before turning over the Enterprise permanently to the young Kirk?
Why was it essential to do so in 2258? It seems as though there was alot of make-believe time to play with…
I cannot help but think it would have added some more credibility to his receiving a command on a permanent basis, and not harmed the promotion scene’s impact at all.
With that said, that’s really my only real gripe about the film, and as a card-carrying Trekkie, I (of course) have to submit one!
Great movie.
Spock Prime could go back in time and stop Nero, like all the other ways they have done before in movies and TV shows in the past Trek lore, he doesn’t need Red Matter to only go back in time to stop Nero. It’s lame for Bob to say that Prime Spok can’t do time travel without Red Matter. When they could just fly around the Sun like he did in Star Trek IV, or Picard did in First Contact.
#372—-Pay attention.
There are plenty of reasons for Spock to logically deduce that changing the past is not a good option here, and neither is offering up the necessary knowledge for others to do so (slingshot effect calculations).
Not only would they have to be successful in saving Vulcan, but they would also have to be able to count on being able to recreate the same set of circumstances that allowed them to defeat the Narada before. And there would be no guarantee that they would be successful in either case.
They could actually end up making things much worse instead. At that point (where Nimoy’s Spock emparts the future knowledge to Scotty and to Kirk), the objective is to make sure Kirk assumes command of the Enterprise, and gets to Earth in time to save it. They were fortunate to stop Nero and defeat him permanently in the process.
It should go without saying that they wouldn’t risk not being able to do the same thing all over again.
And holding up their efforts further by trying to convince the younger Spock to buy into the slingshot effect (which, in the original timeline, was discovered by accident later on) could have so delayed them that the Narada would have been lying in wait for the Enterprise in the Sol system (having already destroyed Earth)…and of course a head-on encounter with the Narada would likely have been the end of the Enterprise.
Just because you have the knowledge to try—doesn’t mean it is a good idea, especially if you could end up making things worse in the process.
372. I believe the point was that the only way they could ultimately stop Nero was with red matter. He could go back in time–and do what? Even a small fleet of Starfleet ships got wiped out in short order by Nero. Putting aside the problem that playing with altering the past is playing with fire (and by eliminating the Nero crisis he would eliminate the spark of Kirk and Quinto-Spock’s friendship), he just wouldn’t have had the means to do anything about it.
One more thing that I haven’t seen mentioned. (Maybe I just missed it.) If you can create a black hole powerful enough to suck up a star that’s gone nova, do you need to drill to the center of a planet to destroy that planet with it? Wouldn’t it be enough just to set the thing up in San Francisco Bay?
351, I don’t agree that Spock Prime “takes it in stride.” He himself said that he was emotionally compromised — a damning statement, coming from a Vulcan.
I think Spock stopping the Narada when it came out of the Black hole wouldn’t ruin anything, destroy it before it could do some damage, before it attacked the Kelvin. I say it’s worth the risks, but that’s just me I guess. I thought that’s what they were going to do before the movie ended.
368 Make that time travel WILL cause head explosions!
Boborci- Thank you guys for making a good film , no matter what the nitpickers will tell you!
I enjoyed the film immensly , please keep up the good work , and please let us see at least one Klingon in the next film , let us find the reason for Kirk’s resentment of the Klingons prior to his son being killed in TSFS .
I’d love to see him going head to head in battle with Klingons, in space and hand to hand as well .
With bumpy foreheads please .
Maybe show Kirk and company’s first encountor with klingons , prior to “Errand of Mercy”
#352 “Lazy writing. Come on Spock Prime and don’t forget Scotty. Perhaps nurse Chapel was also station on Delta Vega too.”
Never talk about coincidences and contrivances in Trek. There are so *many* of them that your head may explode. Call it fate… call it karma… ;)
the best star trek trek movie ever..abrams is a genius. cant wait for the sequal in 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
While I would agree with the Commodore in #379 that it would be nice to see a Klingon or two. The cranial ridges (bumby) on the forehead would no doubt cause another firestorm about canon.
In the TOS/Kirk era, they showed Klingons with the Human infusion. While some books made mentions of both Klingons being around at that time, the TC show never had that.
So far, the only plausable expanation we have had was in the 4th season of ENTERPRISE where we find out that the reason for smooth foreheads came from genetic & viral mutations. This affliction would be passed down for a few generations of Klingons. The TOS Klingons Koloth, Kor and Kang all had smooth foreheads, but they gained Ridges back in DS9. Go figure…
Perhaps the best solution woudl be to show both int eh next film, if they decide to have Klingons or non gang member Romulans. I miss drinking with some Klingon friends at STTE/Quarks in Vegas. Those guys know how to have a good time, even letting us Federations types joining in.
261. BrF – May 15, 2009
“I finally saw the movie last night and had a great time through the whole thing. Yet I agree with post 234 and others. There’s almost no major plot point that, after you think about it for five minutes, makes any sense. Most glaring to me were the incredible range of transporters now, and how it takes five minutes now to get from planet to planet.”
Well, I would argue it’s slightly impressionistic to give the appearance of real time. For example, it seems as though Chekov immedtiately gives a ship-wide breifing and then Kirk immediately realizes it’s a trap and that they arrive at Vulcan in four seconds. But if you notice, when Kirk wakes up after hearing Chekov, BONES has completely changed into his blue uniform, indicating an undetermined passage of time.
# 353. Closettrekker – I HOPE you are playing devil’s advocate. Otherwise it looks like your believe that time travel is actually occurring. ;-)
Closet WROTE: “If Spock were to … save Vulcan, Nero would still have to be defeated again, and who is to say that he would be? Who is to say … Such action could actually produce an even more negative result.”
The WRITERS, THAT’S WHO. Who is to say traveling back in time they are able to find a whale and save Earth in the future? The WRITERS. Who is to say traveling back in time and stopping the Borg will be successful? The WRITERS. This is a MOVIE! The writers tell a story that puts our heros in peril and though we often know the outcome, we are riveted to see how they will do it. I mean seriously, even without canon the audience KNOWS that the main character of a franchise is not going to get killed. Without KIRK, it’s NOT Star Trek. And we all know Paramount never intended to kill Spock in TWOK. It is impossible to keep some secrets in Hollywood. SoI have never bought into this idea that the series HAD to start over in an alternate universe in order to have stories in which the audience never knew the outcome. Of course they can kill Kirk and they can kill Spock now, but really, doesn’t that defeat the whole point of the franchise?***
Oh, I can rationalize this any number of ways. Ultimately I am left with, so when Earth was being threatened with destruction in ST:IV, Spock spearheaded the effort to travel back in time not knowing is they would be successful or even possibly make things worse, but took the risk all the same – yet somehow Vulcan does not carry the same weight?
Look, I agree that short of any on screen exposition, the explanation lies with the individual fan. What I am saying is that the way it stands, there can be no consensus about canon in this film. It’s a real mess. But perhaps that’s the way Abrams’ wanted it. It is certainly the story they wanted to tell and the WRITERS want Vulcan destroyed and they want Spock not to try to save it. Fair enough.
Frankly, I prefer to see this as a complete REBOOT (and under the circumstances no one can say otherwise thanks to the general ambiguities of this film). It is completely different from TOS for all practical purposes and Nimoy/Spock does not behave the way I believe he should based on everything I have seen him do in his original universe canon. And I don’t care how we got into this new alternate universe, since that is not spelled out on screen either. If Bob Orci wants to change that perception, all he has to do is put it on screen. Until then, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
***It just occurred to me, I wonder if there was ever any controversy or real concern when Kirk was killed during Amok Time, or if the audiences of the time went, “WTF? Well I wonder how they are going to get him out of this one?”
Sweet Jeezus!!! You guys are killing me!! Can’t we enjoy a GOOD Star Trek Movie without all this fan-boy geek debate about canon?
You do realize, don’t you, that about 90% of the people watching this movie (including this 37 year+ fan) could care less about the issues you seem obsessed with?
And that Star Trek, in all it’s forms, was DEAD 2 or 3 years ago?
Can’t we be happy that Star Trek is alive again, and in better shape than it’s been in about 15 years or so?
All this grilling of Mr Orci, who has been kind enough to indulge us, is really tiring, and kind of spoiled brat like:
“It’s a good Star Trek movie. It’s entertaining as hell. It exposes Star Trek to a whole new audience. I still have the characters I know and love with a fresh perspective and new possibilities and futures. But i’m stuck in the past, and obsessed with a FICTIONAL canon and minutiae, and old stories. I want my OLD Star Trek back, even if it was DEAD. That’s MY Star Trek. I’m gonna throw a fit until you give me it back!”
And you wonder why “Trekkie” is considered a put-down? LOL. I am a Star Trek fan of 37 years. I loved the movie, twice so far. I’m grateful to all involved to have Trek back, and so strong!! Thank you to the whole team!! Mr Gene himself would be proud of what you’ve done to resucitate his child!!
For all those decrying fate, there is actually a quantum mechanical basis for the “fate function” in this film that we have discussed previously. In a multiverse where, as Data once said “anything that can happen, does happen, in a parallel universe…” there is a probability (a number) associated with each possible configuration. Those events that are most probable are theorized to occur more often in more similar universes. Thus, the idea that Kirk and Spock and Bones come together is merely an indication that the probability assigned to such an event is very high in the multiverse. Some may mistake this for blind fate.
the actor who played chekov really nailed the accent, i live in a city with russian immigrants and they really do talk like that.much better job than the original, even mr scott was done better than the original a more convincing scottish accent, i however disagree with the casting of carl urban, hugh laurie would have been the better choice.the villian nero was excellent one of the best so far, chris pine is the better kirk .the wonderfull thing about this movie is that everyone can enjoy it. even if they have never seen trek before, ive even heard people who dont like star trek say that they enjoyed the movie, cant wait for 2011 with the star trek the return storyline if abrams can pull off tng jj is the king …wow!
386: I don’t think the parallel defense works in your film because it’s never explained it is one, within the film.
Just to let the timeline subject alone for a while, I’d like to remark how moving the Kelvin sequence is. My girlfriend watched the movie twice and she cried both times. Also, she loved Sarek, Amanda and the Vulcan theme of fighting emotions. She is not a trekker and this Trek basic things were not obvious to her, so I bow to some great storytelling
its going to be great to see a new tng movie that picks up where generations left off.hurray for shatner.cant wait till 2011
As for the “new” Spock, I see it as the “real” Spock. The one we should have been seeing all along. It was dead-on, and very realistic for a young Spock. A Spock dealing with, and struggling with, his Human and Vulcan sides, with either side winning out from time to time. Even Mr Nimoy himself has commented about this and brought this to his performances.
LOL @ skip!!
333. Matias47 – May 15, 2009
Too kind. thanks for seeing the movie.
341. RD – May 15, 2009
“My point is that if time travel ever resurfaces, there will be this canonical baggage that Abram’s created to contradict anything but the MWI of QM they’ve hinged the whole universe on.”
Another way to look at it is that the out dated baggage of linear time travel was tying our hands and preventing us from infusing Star Trek with current scientific speculation on time travel. We chose not to be weighed down by it. I can understand many arguments, but I don’t understand the complaint that we should not attempt to conform time travel to the most up to date thinking on the matter.
Mr Orci – You have shown more patience than I might have, kudos to you!! I would have told them (canonistas) days ago, as Mr Shatner famously said: “GET A LIFE!!” (maybe he should take his own advice, IMHO)
#31, 36 .. I’m not at all saying I didn’t like the opening, pan along the Kelvin shot. In fact, I felt the sound did a far better job of conveying the size than in Star Wars and I also felt it was a lot more human of a shot. There was a definite feeling that it was really there in the room with it.
All I’m saying is that the shot went on for a bit, and in a brief moment of weakness, I recalled Space Balls, how the ship just keeps coming… and then it struck me that yes, this was a Star Wars shot. And I shook my head. Don’t read too much into what I say or we’ll all end up popping veins in our heads haha
392 its not a joke this is really in the works , shatner went from being really pissed off at abrams to being as happy as can be production is beginning now on it , abrams is a smart man and likes to make money now he can appeal to the next generation audience. who cares if he jumps around on the series
348. RD – May 15, 2009
Also, I want to point out Bob Orci’s response on #156.
“Again with all due respect to Orci for coming onto these boards and elaborating, nothing he says is considered canon. The only thing that is Canon is what appears on screen. If it doesn’t appear, there is no official answer and regardless of what anybody says, can be explained within a film any way it may be later decided.
With that in mind, in #156 Orci “concedes” there is no specific reference to an alternate “Parallel” reality. Which means, the old “Prime” universe may still exist, or it may not, leaving the individual to believe whatever they wish. Since it’s a fair bet Abram’s will never go back there, it is unlikely that this issue will be a cause of further consternation for the fans either way.”
No, I only conceded that the word “parallel” is not used. In the parlance of QM, “parallel” and “alternate” are interchangeable.
star trek the return is a badass book and it gives alittle bit of everything trek fans like to them, william shatner, the next generation crew and the borg. and now that this movie is a success it gives the go ahead to more movies,maybe even another syndicated tv show , jj abrams has saved star trek and it will keep going brian
#385: “Sweet Jeezus!!! You guys are killing me!! Can’t we enjoy a GOOD Star Trek Movie without all this fan-boy geek debate about canon?”
I doubt it. A good movie would, indeed, silence the nitpicking.
361. Closettrekker – May 15, 2009
Q bless you!
#389. Well said. Great storytelling. In a Star trek movie! Imagine that! Only the fringe (ie: canonista minutiae obsessed) Star Trek fan would disagree…… IMHO
if you all can remember a couple of years ago we were all promised another tng series and all the cast members were signed up on it then all of a sudden it got axed. there was also planning in the works for a next generation movie with john delancy in it ( Q ) and then nothing ..wtf if anything this 2009 movie will help along the production of these concepts. give the people what they want, and so far jj aims to please
400 S. John Ross … I actually have a bit of a concern about how GOOD this movie is.
I took a friend recently whom I had convinced to come based on the interesting things I’ve said about Star Trek over the years and I told him many fans were calling this the Best of all. When we emerged, he said it was Good and then added “but if that’s the best of Star Trek, I’m going to pass on looking at the rest of it.”
This movie is definitely the best of the Star Wars films, but we have to be careful about sullying Star Trek in general if we keep pushing this as the pinnacle of its quality. While a fun movie, Star Trek’s brain has always been a lot healthier than in this picture.
Mr. Orci, all these discussions we’re having here should be in the movie. Either that, or reference your sources at the end of the credits so we can look them up and begin the discussion ourselves.
372. Dan – May 15, 2009
Spock Prime could go back in time and stop Nero, like all the other ways they have done before in movies and TV shows in the past Trek lore, he doesn’t need Red Matter to only go back in time to stop Nero. It’s lame for Bob to say that Prime Spok can’t do time travel without Red Matter. When they could just fly around the Sun like he did in Star Trek IV, or Picard did in First Contact.
In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.. A good analogy for what we have done here would be to magine we were rebooting the modern adventures of a sailor, who at the time that his stories were told, it was believed the earth was flat. Now, years later, here in the re-whatever, we know the world is round. So our story exists in a world where the world is now round, despite that being a “canon” violation.
to all of you rejoice rejoice there is in fact another trek movie due for 2011,its a great day for all trekkies
#400 – No, actually, that WAS my point. The nitpicking will continue because the fan-boy geek canonista will NEVER be satisfied! They cannot see the forest…………
people, people, people… Mr. Orci is right about the theoretical view he has taken on time travel and parallel universes that he’s used. I really enjoy his explanations, but now leave him alone.
The rule as I understand it is that you can pick whatever theory you want, as long as you’re consistent within your own text. Just don’t break your own rules. So far, he’s done a fine job of it.
#404
I see your point. I have two things to say on the matter:
1. Movies are not the best medium to unleash Trek’s true potential. Yet, IMO this movie is the best since a very long time. Congrats to JJ/Orci and crew!
2. It’s impossible to satisfy everyone. I love hard sci-fi (TMP is my first choice), but that kind of direction would scare casual moviegoers. No writer/director can ignore this.
Bob Orci…
You might be better off just handwaving the time travel rules for this one, rather than invoking Many Worlds. As Inigo Montoya might say, this phrase Many Worlds… I do not think it means what you think it means.
Many Worlds is a bit of a misnomer. It’s really more like “many configurations” or “many possibilities.” It does indeed say that a new “world” (or arrangement of reality) is created with each collapse of a quantum wavefunction, but it also says that only one ACTUAL such universe can exist at a time. If you could somehow go back in time and alter the configuration of the “world,” you wouldn’t create a parallel timeline. You’d erase the one that existed previously.
Furthermore, Many Worlds explicitly states that a frame of reference is tied to its configuration. That is, even if there were many ACTUAL universes, you can’t move out of your own.
So while we definitely see Spock travel through time and alter the timeline (well, I guess, Nero alters the timeline), the new timeline — according to Many Worlds theory — overwrites the old one. What’s not clear from Many Worlds (since it prohibits time travel anyway) is whether or not that overwriting happens retroactively. That is, should Spock Prime fade like Marty McFly’s chord fingers, and if so, should it happen the moment he travels through time (thus winking out on arrival in the 2230s) or should it take ~130 years, for the new timeline’s “front” to catch up to the time he left the 24th century?
In any event, this is where an equivalent of “LaForge Quantum Time Theory” would have been more useful. ;-)
If you made it this far, I had a great time at the movie and I’ll be getting it on DVD when it comes out. Oh, and will we see Khan in Star Trek 2? >_>
@ skip – No offense, but I think you’re living in an alternate universe, LOL x 2!!
in 2011 brian you will apologize, lol to the one hundreth power ha
im not lying bout the plans for a second run of tng its a well known fact
i think enterprise was the reason for it being shot down , god did that series suck. thank god bakula wasnt in this new movie hes a terrible actor
410. Chris Basken – May 15, 2009
The “wave function collapse” or so called “Copenhagen interpretation” is not as elegant as the MW theory (which I’m confident I understand as a distinct interpretation) not only because it resolves the grandfather paradox, but because MW theory removes the odd necessity of requiring an observer of an event to collapse it ’s wave function nto reality. The privileged, and some would say supernatural, status of the wave function collapsing observer is not needed in the MW worlds theory, because all possibilities exist in parallel.
Glad you like the movie!
#412 -
Yes, the sequel has already been green-lighted. The cast is signed for 3, so far. I was laughing at your constant TNG references, and I’ll LOL again! I’m guessing it was sarcasm, but it’s hard to tell……..
TNG = ZZZZZZ = 45 M box office = Death, again.
the main point is , i went from being really pissed off at jj abrams for doing a remake of tos and abandoning tng, but you cannot deny what a great movie he did , i did not at any point stand up in the theature and yell b.s.! b.s!b.s! like i thought i would. i think thats what happened with the series enterprise,for gods sake a rod stewart song for the theme, and the anybody can kick our ass,baby steps trek can i make repairs to your ship, i could get whooped by janeway archer. lol you know im right. well all want to see more trek in the future in any form cept the last one , and if you dont want to see more trek why are you commenting on here anyways
yes 45 mill brian but look what they had producing it, directing it , j j can do it, better job than those jokers that ruined trek after roddenberry died
Hey Bob, if you’re still around, who’s idea was it for Kirk to be sucking down an apple during the Kobayashi Maru test? That was genius! Also, who’s idea was the line where Kirk is lounging in the Capt’s chair and Spock tells him to “out of the chair”.?
415: Bob…
That’s a great response and all, but I notice you dodged the most important element of my post.
Khan? ST2? Throw me a bone here…
When Captain Pike was in the wheelchair, I think his power of speech should have been impaired by his ordeal. One beep for yes…two for no.
@51 and others: Spock Prime will not try to fix Vulcan… Why? It is logical. This is an alternate dimension, as deduced by younger Spock. Thus, Spock Prime has deduced this as well. He knows that for all intents and purposes, this is the way things are MEANT to be in THIS timeline, which is ALTERNATE to his own. Because he hails from Starfleet, Spock knows to leave well enough alone in this new timeline. To him, Vulcan still exists, perhaps in many different dimensions, but most of all the one he came from. If anything, saving this Vulcan isn’t the question; it’s why won’t Spock Prime try to go back to his dimension? I think he’s tired, getting old even by Vulcan standards, and he may accept that fate has made this his destiny. And he can live out the last of his days in a universe where he and Kirk, his friend and brother, are beginning anew, whilst he watches from afar. He’ll no doubt give advice to them, but he won’t blindly tell everyone what to do in crises, they must learn it all for themselves.
if you pay attention to what happened on the scifi channel after they removed tng marathon on mondays and replaced it with lost, the fan outrage was so much so many angry emails that they brought it back now on mondays and dont show lost, so in fact there are people who like the longest running trek series on television so dont mock it out and the talented cast that were on it only a moron would say patrick stewart is untalented,,,bri if im lying im crying and i shed no tears yet
That’s a lovely explanation, #422 noirgwio.
We’re always to “fix” the past or “save” the present. But here we see instead, an example of the Prime Directive. Thank you for that take, it is fascinating.
Bob (where ever you are), I actually agree with your scientific basis saying that linear time travel really doesn’t exist. Frankly I don’t think its possible to go back in time at all. However, a LOT of us grew up with Back to the Future, and past Trek like First Contact. Throughout the history of science fiction it’s simply more interesting and fun to do it that way!
In addition, throughout the history of Star Trek, the characters have gone back to the past, changed or fixed things, and returned to the future, very much linearly. It’s kind of difficult to say that all of sudden that is no longer the case. Nimoy/Spock kind of alluded to that.
PS: Was it necessary to blow up our beloved Vulcan, site of Amok Time? Very painful!
Mr. Orci, I still have my gripes, but it really is something to have you drop in here and take the time not only to read but also to respond. Thanks very much. I’m looking forward to the next outing, nitpicks and all.
Star Trek “The Return” in 2011 some legends never die
422. Nice.
#425-
I agree, this should be fun, entertaining, and yes, painfull at times. And some of us Star Trek Fans actually don’t care about the rest. God forbid, we actually feel free from the past canon. As long as it “feels” like Star Trek, as Mr Roddenberry envisioned it, I’m fine with that. As a Star Trek fan, I’m ecstatic!! Why be stuck in the canon of the past. That was the past, a FICTIONAL past of FICTIONAL characters, with FICTIONAL canon.
Mr. Orci,
Thanks for putting up with all the crap from the canon crazies on here. I love Trek, grew up with it, hold it dear, nearly sacred. The movie you helped create is terrific, and aspires to the best things Trek was ever about. It also makes Trek more “approachable” to a younger, less attentive audience, which the franchise badly needs if it is to continue. I value canon, and can point out endless violations of said canon in the “Original Cast” movies… example: “Klingons don’t take prisoners…” Well, they did in TOS… so regardless of the “canon” fight, you made a very good, extremely entertaining (and apparently profitable) movie. For those wo wish to cling to canon, and rehash old effects/uniforms/etc, James Cawley’s fan production is your alternative. Enjoy. I intend to keep seeing the new movies…
@ skip -
Ok, I guess I gave you more credit than you deserved. I actually thought you were being sarcastic. I wish you well in your TNG alternate universe……the rest of us moved on about 15 years ago……
hahaha… Boborci #428, you mean that wasn’t what you intended? =P Dang it, man!
#430 – Very well said!! Canon violations are the canon in Trek. It’s called storytelling, or good fiction.
this is highly entertaining:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi6MPfSRInI
if you liked the vids at the top of the page then watch this one.
Roberto!
Thanks for spending some time here with your geek brethren.
1. So besides the Kirk cameo, and scenes that were shot, can you maybe give us some insight to aborted ideas for this movie that you were passionate about?
2. How would you rate the amount of studio notes that P-mount gave you and Alex?
and lastly
3. Do you and Alex spend much time doing on the set rewrites, or was this pretty dang cohesive before you started shooting?
LLAP,
RedShirt
Fort Worth
Dang, no edit feature! To clarify, I meant “scenes that were shot, and cut, and will appear on DVD/Blu-Ray somewhere down the line.”
Thanks!
#405 – brilliant. Simple and brilliant.
Now let’s apply it to Trek. If there were an epic tale about facing the waterfalls at the edge of the Earth, let’s say the most beloved of all the stories (analogous to City On The Edge of Forever), but the conceit in the story contradicts the modern understanding, since the Earth is round and there is no edge, then the episode could never happen in the reboot. Ergo, this can’t be the same character if the story never happened.
Since you used the term “reboot”, I will simply say, that is the easiest way to view Nimoy/Spock in this context is to say he is essentially, but not literally, the Spock we all know and love and ACCEPT that for all practical purposes that this film is a REBOOT of the franchise and not even attempt to reconcile it with any previous canon. Frankly, I have said from the beginning that this would have been the way to go. Had the exact same movie been made with the upfront understanding that it would not really relate to canon I don’t think you would have sold one less ticket than you already have. Sadly carrying a fully canon connected Nimoy/Spock into the reboot brings with him all of the expectations that the old canon was strangling the franchise with and invite further explanations to explain away. *sigh*
#398 – the distinction between “parallel” and “alternate” may be a semantic one for you, however, ultimately one should not need a glossary to define terms used within the movie in order to understand it. All I can say is hopefully there will be no more time travel to even raise these issues again.
By the way, since you are so thoughtfully addressing many of these musings, I actually really enjoyed the story and thought it was a very clever way to reboot the franchise. While we may disagree on the fine points and what constitutes a plot hole or poor execution, the core is solid and made for an entertaining couple of hours.
So how big is the Enterprise?
saw it last week on Imax. good attempt. i give it a c+.
@ Rick, number 438
So amazing to see Rick here! Loved your work for years!
Here’s a cut and past from: http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/currentissue/Reinventing-Star-Treks-VFX_10905.html
——————————–
Modelers and view painters (texture painters) at ILM built a larger, more streamlined Enterprise, the Romulan Narada, the drilling platform, and other ships and objects for the film, using Autodesk’s Maya, ILM’s Zeno, and Adobe’s Photoshop.
Although it stayed true to form, the Enterprise grew from 1300 feet to 2000 feet in length for this film. Its “neck” is thinner and more graceful, and it has more visible moving parts. The team worked from concept art created by Ryan Church and leaned on the experience of such crewmembers as Alex Jaeger, who was the visual effects art director at ILM for Star Trek: First Contact in 1996, and John Goodson, who was the model project supervisor for that film.
“The Enterprise is an icon,” says Bruce Holcomb, model supervisor. “We didn’t redesign it. We brought it into the future in a sophisticated way. One of our big tasks was to make people go into the film and believe they’re looking at a practical model. That’s the hardest thing to achieve.”
The Enterprise is always CG when seen from the outside, as are the other space vehicles, all of which ILM created. For the Narada, the studio consulted reference materials from production designer Scott Chambliss, who called for a mysterious, asymmetrical vessel. “The reference materials were all over the place,” Holcomb says, “from architecture to a photo of tangled hair. So there was a lot of back and forth.”
For Holcomb, the scale of the work was most challenging. “The Narada was six miles long and the Enterprise is 2000 feet. When they fly into camera, we always had to do something to make them look that big in CG.” For example, Holcomb estimates that modelers and painters altered the Narada on a shot by shot basis 70 percent of the time. “J. J. let us explore the dark aspect of it,” Holcomb says. “We dreamed up solutions and built and painted it accordingly.”
Rick Sternbach!
I have only praise for you. Thank you for all your hard work and for being such an inspired individual. You work IS sci-fi’s best. That’s saying a lot and you deserve it all. Keep coming back, we love your insight.
OK, here is a physics question: How does “Red Matter” make a black hole?
Speculation: It is highly condensed matter already. Like of neutron star density. If that is the case, then how can a ship transport the mass of a star? Does the Red Matter bubble-container decrease it’s inertia so much that it is possible? Like some souped-up inertial dampener?
So, the red matter would have to do two things: shrink the planet mass to the size of a gumball, and then create a singularity. Even if that happens, then why does the black hole in the movie become the size of the original planet? Artistic license? For a movie that gets some cool science RIGHT, like silence in space, why does it get black hole mechanics wrong?
BTW: I really loved the movie, it’s just fun to pick on the science faux pas of it.
#293 … (about Kirk being promoted to Captain so quickly) …. from the early Trek tradition in the book by Stephen Poe (Whitfield) and Gene Roddenberry that came out circa 1968, Kirk is identified as “34 years old (in Season 1) – the youngest Captain in Starfleet History.” The movie does certainly hold that Kirk is almost certainly the rising star and the youngest Starship Commanding Officer – even in this universe, but 34 is pushing it a bit. So looks like (to repeat myself) the building of the ship was moved forward in time, yet the time of Kirk’s command takes place earlier in time, giving us a younger crew.
I don’t know how many years it takes to put super-glue in all of the hull breaches on the Bridge, but I’m sure it didn’t happen overnight.
Now there was a day about 3,000 years ago when a young shepherd boy named David was promoted all the way to King David of the Jewish Kingdom in less than 4 years time, and perhaps that’s the basis for the quick rise to power. The inspiration could be in how an apprentice Carprenter from Nazareth in Galilee was promoted to God and the Risen Lord in 3 year’s time. (Although I can’t really think of anyone in Hollywood who would know who I”m talking about). Or, the inspiration could be in the latest rendition of a so-called Messiah, a community organizer who rose to be the President of the United States in only a few short years. As much as it does seem improbable that Kirk could rise so far so fast, it is not without precedence.
Re=post
Boborci:
if you’re still out there: I know you guys turned in the script just prior to the writers’ strike and at that point it was effectively locked. As the director, JJ could only make changes through editing and deleting of material but could not add or revise the script. JJ had made comments about times during shotting, where good ideas had come up that could not be persued since JJ, who got his start as a writer, felt it very important to honor the strike. With that being said, can you elaborate on what you and Alex or even JJ might have changed, clarified, added had you been allowed to do so?
Finally, I’m interested to know how the development process is going with Damon Lindeloff in the mix this time around. Have you come up with the kernel of a premise yet? (That’s a yes or no question, no details expected).
Oh, and I know you didn’t write it, but congratulate your brother on the tombstone reveal in Fringe. That was awesome, as was the WTC.
#440 – I was being semi-facetious. :) I saw the article, but I’ve also seen a number of other “official” lengths, and either by design or he just hasn’t gotten around to it, Bob hasn’t answered this one. Some of us have asked more than once; I’m just curious (I did this stuff for a living once upon a time with my trusty engineer’s scales and pencils and computer), others are ravenously chomping at their own scales and LCD screens to try and nail the dimensions. If the brewery doesn’t exactly fit within any official hull size, I personally don’t care in the greater scheme of things, but again, I’m curious, mostly about the *reasons* for bulking up the ship so much as compared to Matt Jefferies’ 1966 original. Folks have talked about the facts that they did this, that, and the other (as in the article), but no one’s really said why.
#441 – cagmar – Hiya, and thanks for the nice words. Maybe I can lead a rebellion. ;) Oh, wait. Different movie.
Bob Orci ,
Just wanted to say I really liked the film.
My writing teacher also saw it!
Every week she assigns me to review the movies I see .
She is not a very big science fiction fan.
Nor is she a trekkie .
But I gave the film such a GLOWING review ,
She decided to take a chance on it!
She LOVED IT!
she thought it was very funny.
good luck with the sequel .
My only specific wish for the sequel is a is a three dimensional chess
game between Kirk and Spock .
I wish you and Alex nothing but the the best in ALL your future endeavors
I thank you both for one of the best movie experiences I have had in YEARS!
KUDOS!
#442 – It can be similar to latinum; the majority of the mass resides in subspace and doesn’t spontaneously cause everything nearby it to collapse. The “igniting” of the red matter does some fun stuff with the subspace membrane, causes a shift in the mass to the here and now. Sheesh; haven’t you guys figured that out? :)
By the way, I absolutely HATE the use of the word “ignite” in the Trek context. Our writers used it way too often to “ignite” plasma, which is already hot and burning, or “ignite” a nebula, which is just plain crazy talk. If you want to blow something up, say detonate or just say you want to blow it up.
Hey Rick Sternbach,
To play Devil’s advocate here: how many times did the length of the Defiant from DS9 change? It’s scale in reference to other ships shifted shape more than Odo in certain shots. I remember having that debate on the old “Ask Ron Moore” boards on AOL in the 90s.
Not for nothing, though, but the Defiant is my favorite ship design of all time from any sci-fi production.
#447-If the movie you are referring to is Star Wars then it really isn’t that different. >;>}
Hey Mr. Orci
I love Star Trek now more than ever!
#449—Ohhh, yeah, I forgot about “subspace.” Dang. Y’know, I hate the overuse of that term more than “ignite.”
@424 cagmar & 428 Boborci: Thanks! I loved the movie, love all Trek and especially these characters, and as I’ve said elsewhere on this site; it’s my writer’s instinct. I have a rapid-fire, highly-visual/emotional sense. For Spock Prime and the issues raised by everyone along that thinking, it was almost more what I imagined Spock felt, than coming up with what they call a ‘plot device.’ Star Trek should be able to break new ground, to always go further, be familiar but also surprise and thrill us. It is fun to take note of the adventures of the past, but I’m not a stickler. Anything goes… As long as it goes boldly and respectfully. IMHO, Star Trek ‘09 definately did!
All of the Trek movies are my favorite ones. So when anyone asks, “Hey! Hat Rick! What’s your favorite Trek movie?” the answer is always, “ALL of them.”
That said, I watched TWOK today and boy, was the pace different. If it’d been done at the same pacing as the current movie, it’d have lasted about half an hour.
Still and all, TWOK is my favorite Trek movie, as is all the others, including this current one. ( ;-) )
Nice to know, as well, that there are people here who remember the old “Ask Ron Moore” board.
#454 noirgwio … Your idea was great. I just wish I saw that level of visual and emotional input in the script that ended up becoming the new movie. If Orci and Kurtzman had put in a single, throw-away line similar to the point you made, it would have elevated the movie significantly. Not enough room? Take out the sixty-millionth wrestling match on the Narada at the end and let’s hear someone TALK about some of these wonderful ideas!!
Lord Sternbach, I’m curious about whether they actually changed the size of the Enterprise or rather just shot it differently? What sorts of scaling did you see that made you think it was too big? What are your thoughts?
boborci — not sure if you’re still around or if you still feel like answering questions, but I thought I’d ask some quick ones anyway. :)
1. Do you have a specific reason for setting most of the movie in 2258 as opposed to, say, sometime in the 2260s?
2. How was Spock able to see Vulcan from Delta Vega (2)? How could the planets be that close without tearing each other apart, and when the black hole sucks up Vulcan, why doesn’t it pull in Delta Vega (2)?
3. Can you name the ship whose saucer the Enterprise almost runs into when it arrives at Vulcan?
Again, absolutely loved the movie, and greatly appreciate you taking the time to answer some of our questions.
#450 – VZX – Well, I’m safe because I didn’t design the Defiant and couldn’t tell the VFX gang exactly how big it was, like I could with most of the ships I did design. The number we put in the DS9 TM was basically a synthesis of data I got from the DS9 art department folks and some diagrams to measure; we did what we could. VFX folks sometimes got scales of ships a bit out of whack because of separate elements shot at different times and maybe not composited exactly at the right sizes. It’s like I’ve told people before, Trek is in your own mind, and you can make the Defiant the size that works best for you. The -intent- of the different designs can still be talked about, and that’s still a lot of fun.
Mad props to Bob Orci for posting here. It’s nice to see he actually cares.
Personally, I had been trying to resolve my minor qualms with the movie ever since I saw it (totally nailed the “Winona Kirk in Starfleet,” btw). Overall though, there’s no one issue that stands in the way of me completely enjoying the movie. All the concern over the time travel aspect is pointless. Why are we debating scientific theories that have yet to be proven? If Orci and Kurtzman want to use quantum mechanics, who cares? It works for the movie (and the potential new franchise), and it keeps the original timeline intact so as to not draw the ire of fans (I’ll admit, I would’ve been a upset if the old timeline was “gone”). Orci and Kurtzman, like George Kirk, don’t believe in no-win scenarios, and this time travel choice was a win-win. ;-)
457 – cagmar – I can’t say that I thought the ship was “too” big until I hear some reason for the scale that was used. Compared visually to some other pieces ‘n’ parts, like the shuttles, the ship seems at least twice the size of the TOS Ent or the Refit. That’s all I can tell right now. If the new Ent was started soon after the Kelvin incident, there’s probably no reason why it couldn’t be 2000+ feet, given a 15-20 year design and review cycle, testing, outfitting, etc. I suppose I like others are railing a bit against a ship twice the length but with the same basic squint-at-it OML (outer mold line) proportions of the Refit.
I’ve seen it three times and will see it one or two more times for sure. It’s a solid 3-star movie with some great moments. A couple things hold it back, but not much. This is a reboot, which I don’t have a huge problem with. If it was when Nero came back and destroyed the Kelvin that times was altered, as they state, then why were the Kelvin, the uniforms, etc. so different from TOS? As well as Kirk performed in his first mission, he gets promoted to Captain from Cadet?? Lastly, I wish they had included some scenes that may have been filmed but deleted; ones that covered the time Nero was in prison and young Kirk’s life as a child and as a cadet.
#461… I see, I see. That’s a really interesting way of looking at it. I also really appreciate your “subspace membrane” idea. I’m slowly starting to piece together this movie’s helter-skelter perspectives …
#462 – T’Cal – First, the Kelvin and uniforms were different from TOS because that was the year 2233 when the Kelvin was destroyed. We don’t know what the ships and uniforms of that time period would have been like, because nothing Trek has ever covered that before. It’s a clean slate for the designers to start with, so they were able to take liberties.
Second, I have heard others also complain about promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain so quickly. I don’t disagree, but I think it can be explained off screen. My feeling is that Spock Prime explained to Starfleet what happened in his timeline, and how Nero’s intervention changed the alternate timeline. He told them how successful the Kirk from his timeline was as Captain of the Enterprise, and urged Starfleet to promote him to that rank. Add this with the fact that Kirk saved Earth, and I think there’s a legitimate premise for Kirk’s quick rise in the ranks.
#404: I agree. I enjoyed this film for what it is (a light flash-bang summer entertainment; Paramount made the right choice of moving it to its proper season) … but I don’t think it even fits next to original-crew Star Trek films for comparison. I don’t even think it’s a matter of which is better or worse; they’re just entirely different forms of entertainment; it would be like trying to compare a rock song to a bowl of soup; there just aren’t enough criteria in common. All that said, I have more concerns about the state of this movie’s heart than its brain.
#407: I suppose that is true to a great extent, but I retain hopes. In fairness, I don’t think my theory has ever _really_ been tested ;) We’ve had films that were good films (branded Star Trek) and we’ve had films that were good Star Trek but crappy films. I don’t think we’ve ever seen it all completely put together yet, not with any of the 11 features. But I do concede that the hardcore canonista will always nitpick; that’s just they way they enjoy their Trek (and as long as they don’t expect _me_ to give a flip about canon, that’s groovy by me). I had to face a lot of them back a few years ago, and some were very intense (moreso than I’ve _ever_ seen on this board, and I mean that). But I do think if we ever got a really good movie that was also really good Trek, there might well be at least a few weeks of respectful awe :) I hope someday to find out, even if I’m dead wrong about that :)
#464: “Add this with the fact that Kirk saved Earth, and I think there’s a legitimate premise for Kirk’s quick rise in the ranks.”
I agree with this. I think once a cadet (far-ish along in his studies) goes and saves the entire planet, it would be … awkward to say “thanks, now get back to class, you’re missing your test on graviton particles.” Given the kind of world this flavor of Star Trek takes place in, I could easily see it as Starfleet brass responding to simple political pressure (”the people of Earth absolutely love this yuppie douchebag; give him that ship and maybe we’ll have more support for our push to explore the snigglefoom sector … Besides, if you let him back in the Academy he’ll be insufferable. I mean … MORE insufferable.”)
I think it’s ridiculous that cadet Kirk was put in a _position_ to save the Earth. Once he was there, though, and once he saved it, there’s no where to put him but in charge of something, and it may as well be the ship that he brought safely home.
has anyone ever wondered why people in the alternate timeline doesn’t seem surprised what Romulans look like (or that their apearance are similar to Vulcans?) and that they knew Nero’s species was Romulans? In the original timeline, nobody knew what Romulans looked like until “Balance of Terror” episode.
So in this new timeline, everybody seems to know about Romulans and their true appearance earlier than in the original timeline.
I always thought that the bit about not knowing the Romulans true appearance was kinda silly. I mean, even if you don’t have a formal embassy there, surely there’s a merchant or a vendor from Romulus on one of the border planets. Some guy named S’hit who sells used waste extractors, lol.
One thing you have to remember is that in this timeline, Kirk does not join Starfleet at age 18 like most others, he becomes a loser. He graduates in this movie at what I guess is age 25. In TOS, he is promoted to Captain around age 31, and takes command of the Enterprise. While he had some memorable experiences on the Republic and Farragut, there must have been some big things he did in the early 2260’s to warrant the promotion.
Look the fact is these are going to be different characters than what we know, their lives have been greatly altered in some cases. I have NO interest in comparing canon between the old and new. That’s why I urge Mr. Orci and company to refrain from using the old all that much in the sequel and any potential future films. It automatically aggravates me because I go right into canon-analysis mode.
464 — Of course what’s better a punk who needs a bit more self-control but has learned the ropes through the ranks? or a punk who skipped out on life lessons (and possibly important classes, making him a bit ignorant to boot) yet is in charge of the top of the line starship?
Does this mean linear time travel is obsolete?
yeah, I kind of wish they’d left out the flagship line… I always liked the idea that the Enterprise was remarkable because of her crew.
Oh, if Bob’s still around… an chance of seeing a little Kirk skin next time? Trek’s first bare derriere would be a milestone. Perhaps that could be the Shatner cameo — as Pine’s butt double.
#471:
That seems to be the idea. But hey, no more niggling Temporal Prime Directive … if you can’t repair a timeline, you can’t mess it up, either …
How embarassing, really, that 23rd and 24th century science never noticed this; they should have consulted with 21st century screenwriters on how successful and tested it all is :)
Mr. Orci,
Your Star Trek was brainless. I think you totally missed the point to what the heart and soul of Star Trek is. If you make another one, please make it more than something with just explosions and slapstick humor. It’s just more proof how much Hollywood under estimates its audiences. It was a great Star Wars movie though.
I have a gripe with JJ, Bob and Alex: You guys are taking all of my money. I’ve seen Star Trek 4 times in a week… and it manages to keep me amused. I notice more things each time, whether it’s an easter egg, a sound effect or a funny line. The scientific inaccuracies — especially the supernova, etc — still doesn’t bother me enough that they ruin the movie for me. The movie’s just too much fun and my wallet has a hole in it, apparently… I’ll be in the poor house very soon…. Thanks ALOT guys!
;)
I have a gripe with JJ, Bob and Alex: You guys are taking all of my money. I’ve seen Star Trek 4 times in a week… and it manages to keep me amused. I notice more things each time, whether it’s an easter egg, a sound effect or a funny line. The scientific inaccuracies — especially the supernova, etc — still don’t bother me enough that they ruin the movie for me. The movie’s just too much fun and my wallet has a hole in it, apparently… I’ll be in the poor house very soon…. Thanks ALOT guys!
;)
476. dmh – May 16, 2009
HA! LOL — so sorry, and so appreciate it!
474. The Wild Man of Borneo – May 16, 2009
“Mr. Orci,
Your Star Trek was brainless. I think you totally missed the point to what the heart and soul of Star Trek is. If you make another one, please make it more than something with just explosions and slapstick humor. It’s just more proof how much Hollywood under estimates its audiences. It was a great Star Wars movie though.”
Yeah. Really talking down to everyone with our prequel/sequel/quantummechanical/withincanonrebootamajiggy, and all we had to do was please everyone and bring Leanord Nimoy out of retirement. Sorry we took the easy way out.
We’ll try harder. I promise.
Funny to some insulting to others!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02LgdXVkXgM&feature=related
#479 Jim, stop posting that please.
The real joke is that the new movie does NOT make sense. Read this board. Each and every one of us at some point could have used one more full sentence and one less fight.
(still, Mr. Orci, it really was your best script and I love you for so obviously putting everything you had into it… keep at it, man… keep shooting for the stars)
A sentence or two about Quantum Mechanics theory of time travel related to this movie could of helped.
Within the movie I mean.
480. cagmar – May 16, 2009
And I really appreciate how hard you’ve worked to understand the movie! Keep at it, man, you’ll get it one day! Cheers!
#480: huh? What part didn’t make sense?
Sure, some parts were illogical (like Spock banishing Kirk from the Enterprise or Spock spending an inordinate amount of time kissing Uhura on the transporter pad)… or some incredibly bad science.
But the movie’s heart was there…
Personally, I felt very bad for Kirk when he asked elder Spock if his father (in the alternate reality) lived to see him become a captain. You could feel Kirk’s envy for his alternate ego.
Having lost my dad at an early age, my heart tugged for young Kirk, obviously in turmoil, for never having known his father.
This was definitely a movie for fathers and sons… even Spock and Sarek had their heart-tug moments.
My son and I loved it… and have had countless discussions about the movie since seeing it last Thursday night.
oh dear, Mr. Orci, what I said was in no way sarcastic or meant to put you down. You made a thriller of a film. You did. I certainly hope your comment’s not meant to be taken harshly ?
484. MC1 Doug – May 16, 2009
#480: huh? What part didn’t make sense?
“Sure, some parts were illogical (like Spock banishing Kirk from the Enterprise…”
Quite logical, in my humble opinion. Spock by now understands that if he merely locks Kirk in a cell, Jim is smart enough and driven enough in his beliefs that he will escape and interfere with what Spock feels to be his duty to follow Pike’s orders. We had a line to that effect in one draft, but after the countless instances of insubordination and cheating, we didn’t think Spock’s motivations required much more explanation.
484. MC1 Doug – May 16, 2009
“But the movie’s heart was there…
Personally, I felt very bad for Kirk when he asked elder Spock if his father (in the alternate reality) lived to see him become a captain. You could feel Kirk’s envy for his alternate ego.
Having lost my dad at an early age, my heart tugged for young Kirk, obviously in turmoil, for never having known his father.
This was definitely a movie for fathers and sons… even Spock and Sarek had their heart-tug moments.
My son and I loved it… and have had countless discussions about the movie since seeing it last Thursday night.”
Wow. Amazing thing to read.
Bob and Alex,
The mere fact you guys listen to our gripes and concerns, makes me feel incredibly confident and fortunate to have you guys at the helm. The movie itself is awesome and you’ve made me feel like I am 12 and its 1982 again. Thank you so much for this.
Generations for me was the ultimate slap in the face to TOS. To me, they deliberately tried to make TOS look bad and irrelevant to Trek in that film and shoving Kirk off of a cliff was meant to be the final stake in the heart. It back-fired in a big way, but we had to wad through 15 years of drudgery before Paramount finally woke up to the fact that TOS IS the Father of Star Trek and the remaining series its offspring. TOS and TNG are both important and relevant. Berman and company never honored that and it almost led to Treks demise.
You guys and J.J. have clearly honored TOS and thus Trek as a whole. The reintegration of Trek’s lost self has resulted in an awesome rebirth.
You’ve pulled off the impossible and its1982 all over again, well almost.
I didn’t find the film quite as good as ST 2 but possibly better than ST 6 (which is my second favorite of all the ST films), and here are my ridiculously geekie reasons –
**SPOILER WARNING**
1.) Pine’s Kirk didn’t quite capture the full essence of the James T. Kirk that I know and love. He wasn’t his typical cool, calm, classy, gentlemen self. Although I did see signs of this in the last scene on the bridge when Kirk says “buckle up” to Bones then actually sits cross-legged in the cpts chair. It seemed to me that these little touches were hinting at the man Kirk will eventually become. Am I reading that correctly? If so, this is then great news. This is my biggest gripe with the film. Also, is he going to address him self as “Capatain James T. Kirk” in the next film? Introducing himself as “Captain Jim Kirk” doesn’t work well with me.
2.) The battle at the end was a bit of a let down. It was wrapped up too quickly and I wanted to see the Narada and Enterprise duke it out for a while before igniting the red matter that caused the Narada to be sucked through the black hole. While the Kelvin battle was nice, it wasn’t the E and the E’s battle with Narada paled in comparison. It felt a bit anti-climactic for me.
Now for the really lame complaints –
3.) Pulse phasers – Just curious as to why you chose this design. When the E dropped out of warp to save Spock, it reminded me of the Defiant with its pulse cannons firing in varying arcs. Sorry to be annoing but YUK!!! I know pulse phasers were used in some of the first TOS episodes, but hand held phasers were still beam weapons if I recall. I could be wrong about that and if so, then my apologies. Can you guys switch back to beam weapons that fire long bursts in the sequel. ST2 phasers are the ultimate choice. Can hand phasers go back to being beam weapons as well? Please, please, please. I can donate my left kidney if required (lol)
4.) Kelvin uniforms – Such a 24th centurty design. Shouldn’t these have reflected a “cage-esque” still uniform? With ENT series uniforms being a 24th century design, were you trying to create a bridge between TOS and ENT?
5.) No Shat in the movie. You were expecting that, and yet I loved the scene you created for the Shat. it didn’t seem contrived and would have added even more emotional impact to the scene where Pine and Nimoy debate Kirk and Spocks relationship. It would have given Pine’s Kirk a little self revelation and given the old TOS fans even more reason to embrace the new cast. Atleast, thats how it would have been for me. You could argue that Kirk Prime at that point could have become a sort of mentor to young Kirk. If you can at all , PLEASE PLEASE Get Shatner in the next movie (pretty please with sugar on top )
Otherwise, a brilliant movie. The scenes with Urban and Quinto are just amazing, classic, and exactly perfect. I couldn’t have imagined that was possible. Loved Pegg and Saldana, but I think Yelcin needs to lay off the accent a bit and hopefully we can see more from John Cho. The chemistry with the cast is otherwise amazing and I again thank you for your careful attention to Trek and having the wisdom to know that we didn’t need yet another crew on another nameless ship with a series title of Star Trek: SHIP or Star Trek: Space Station or another film called Star Trek: Event or Star Trek: Bad Guy.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR BRING STAR TREK BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!!
Maybe the movie should have been title “The search for Trek”……lol
Have fun guys, you deserve it
Take Care,
sparky
See there are alternate parallel realities, you can travel to, that look like ours, were in one reality you are dead, and another hitler won the war. You can travel to the past and affect the past. But I wasn’t aware of that you can travel to the past of another alternate parallel reality. This is the first time I’ve heard of this. But in the movie it is not refered to that Prime Spock went in the past to an alternate parallel reality, that’s where I’m lost in the movie. The film give the impression he just traveled to his past Prime timeline an altered it for good.
the film gave*
“has anyone ever wondered why people in the alternate timeline doesn’t seem surprised what Romulans look like (or that their apearance are similar to Vulcans?) and that they knew Nero’s species was Romulans? In the original timeline, nobody knew what Romulans looked like until “Balance of Terror” episode”
Well, do the math. If the Enterprise with Kirk in command was the first ship to encounter the Romulan’s in 100 years and the Kelvin meets the Narada 25 years before that incident……………..
Do I have to explain it? I mean there is a Kelvin Salt shaker in the bar that Kirk meets Pike in. Guessing the Federation new that the Kelvin was destroyed by Romulans.
Mr Orci,
Are we going to see Klingon’s in the next flim? also can you tell us if Archer in the flim was the Archer from ENT?
Love the Film Going to go see it with my younger Brothers when I get home from a family Reunion!
The film is delightful. Funny, I’ve now seen it 5… 6 times… and each time now I worry before that I’m going to want to walk out of the theatre out of boredom since I’ve seen it all… but no, the intensity has actually been increasing and the “holes” no longer seem like holes, just parts of the story that weren’t telegraphed. Really great choices, fellas. I look forward to the next one (how’s that coming? btw)
Funny, the only folks I know who haven’t loved it said that it was because of the alternate reality (a term which is indeed said in the film, by the way)– that “this isn’t our crew.” Personally, I think it’s brilliant. Finally, anything is possible and we’re not stuck in the tired, straightjacketed universe Trek had become. Frankly, I don’t care even if all that didn’t happen now. It’s not like the DVDs will magically vanish (wait, I’d better check) or Patrick Duffy will walk out of the turbolift in a towel.
#486: Mr. Orci, now I stand corrected… (banishing Kirk) that makes perfect sense to me.
but about that kiss? …. (grin)
Thanks for bringing TREK back!
(will be seeing the movie again [third time-- this time IMAX] this weekend, I haven’t seen a TREK film multiple times at the theater since ST TMP)
so, well, my life’s complete. I’ve now been mimicked insincerely by one of the writers of Star Trek after trying to compliment him. I probably deserved it, too, after the ruckus I caused with the whole “hick that only has sex with farm animals”-slur incident. So it’s okay. Even if I think something’s right or wrong, that’s not a good enough excuse to say it if the way I’m saying it hurts somebody so much. Thanks for letting me know, even cryptic as it was.
But for the record, I know Bob and Alex are creative geniuses. The things you say here and the ways you define and defend your choices are without misstep. I personally want to see that genius on the big screen, now. You ought to share your smarts and your research with everyone. Don’t let us doubt your grasp of these things. Because then people get upset and somebody says something and then someone else mimics a fan … and nobody feels good about it.
When you were my age, you were writing Hercules and Xena. I grew up with those shows and they really inspired my imagination. I don’t know now if I’d still think they were good or bad, but I remember.. once, they were the best thing in the world. So let’s start there.
Peace, Mr. Orci. I’m already too old to be the young success you were, but I’m going to keep trying and you keep trying, and heck, if I don’t like it, I’m still going to say it and defend my position — just don’t take it personally. And don’t let it weigh you down. I’m only trying to help.
#344 – “No matter what anyone says, this film was not Trek.”
It was Trek. This movie was Star Trek. You’re brain can’t handle it. This was Star Trek.
All together, “This was Star Trek.”
It was an alternate parallel timeline of Trek, according to Bob Orci.
I just had a horrible thought regarding the sequel:
–PRESSURE–
How do you top this one????
As Dr. Smith used to say, “oh,, the pain, the pain, the pain of it all.”
I sure wouldn’t want to be Roberto and Alex.
Wait! what am I saying?? Like hell I would!!!!
Mr. Orci, thanks for a fantastic film!
It was interesting reading an above comment about fathers and sons, I can definitely second that. Having lost my father a few years back, I can definitely say that I really related to George Kirk’s death and, moreover, Jim Kirk asking Spock Prime about his father in the “other” reality. Chokes me up.
Also, as someone who’s striving to become an officer in the service, I found it truly inspirational to watch Kirk’s journey.
I’m looking forward to the next one! This may be a bit presumptuous, but I read that you wanted fan feedback regarding which direction to go. Well, here I go.
1. Khan. I’ve heard this floated around, and I’ve even heard Javier Bardem’s name associated with it somewhere (I’m sure he’d be great.) The thing is, however, I’m not sure I’d recommend it. It would seem silly and unnecessary to simply remake Wrath of Khan, so you’d have to approach very differently. Without Khan’s motive for revenge, all he has would be his lust for power/glory (which admittedly could be interesting.)
2. Klingons. I’m more open to this as it allows you more freedom and flexibility, as well as staying iconic. I’m not going to bore you with opinions about genetic mutation etc, that’s for the makeup dept. What you could do is show the Klingons in a different light than in TNG. Although they become very well developed, you’re sort of in a corner because they’ve got nowhere to go. But the TOS Klingons are more ruthless and cruel and less concerned about honor – maybe there is some social mechanism for this change? Or go a different direction and play up their pride instead of their wrath as a motivation? Maybe there’s some thoughtful, quiet, intelligent Klingon mastermind out there… :-0
3. New race. Lots of freedom and flexibility, though of course no iconic factor here. You could expand some minor villain like the Gorn or even the Kzinti from TAS (don’t laugh – if ya did it right they could be fearsome). :-p
4. No alien/bad guy. Something like Doomsday Machine or V’Ger, although I guess the Narada/Red Matter very nearly qualify. Maybe Earth actually gets occupied by a foreign power (we’ve never seen that!) Or something like a terrible plague strikes Earth and the Enterprise goes combing the galaxy for a cure…
Sorry, I’m about as longwinded as Joe Biden. Basically, I would encourage you not to rehash an old villain or superweapon. If you do something well-defined (like Klingons) shake up the preconceptions a bit. Anyway, I don’t expect much in the way of a reply, I know you can’t really discuss the sequel, but I really hope it helps to get some fan perspective.
Boborci-
Thank you. After 3 viewings, I really love it. This 3rd viewing Friday night was with my non-fan, 40-something year old wife, who did not know who Chekov, Sulu, or Uhura was. She knew enough that McCoy doesn’t cotton to Spock, and that Shatner is Kirk. She really enjoyed it, and we spent the time coming home and I had to answer who was or was not in TOS and how they are different now. She was not surprised at all to find out that the same pair of writers made this Trek so entertaining as did a movie about stupid transforming robots that we both surprisingly loved so much a couple years ago (and are both looking forward to this year). I think that the two of us agree that how the humor works in both films is the key.
I have to say, that Pine as Kirk really works well. I do think that for me, while so much of it seemed like Kirk, the last piece where it snaps in and he is completely Kirk for me is when Spock Prime calls him James T. Kirk.
I really don’t have much in nitpicks, just a couple questions:
1) Is the transporter technology from some other canonical source that I am missing? Is this from the book “Spock Must Die”? Or is it from whole cloth?
2) (ok, here is a nit) – When Robou (sp) goes to the shuttle bay, why does his very construction site looking elevator come down to the floor instead of coming up? Isn’t the shuttle bay at the top of the ship?
The part where you say they tell us in the movie and that this is a new timeline is correct. It’s stated explicitly.
The part where you say this is fiction and there can be multiple rules for time travel, that is incorrect. Any fictitious still has to be logical constructed and work by a consistent set of rules. If it doesn’t, then dramatic structure also goes out of the window and then people have a totally valid reason to complain.
Within the context of this movie alone, it can work. But if previous movies have one set of rules and they are contradicted by this one, while apparently set within the same canon universe, then you can believe people have the right to complain.
Mr. Orci,
You did not please everyone. And you did not answer my point. I know that you realize compared to The Motion Picture, The Wrath of Khan…hell almost all of the movies, that this Star Trek movie is totally brainless. Why did you take this approach?
This newsweek article says it best. If you guys are in charge of Star Trek please respect the intelligence of it in the next movie.
“the show has worked as part of this tradition, using extraterrestrial settings to ask ethical and philosophical questions about the way people behave. In this way, the TV series commented on most of the big issues of the past 40 years: war, sexism, racism, animal rights, the environment, religion, sexuality.”
http://www.newsweek.com/id/196005
“Sure, it’s just a summer blockbuster, but by leaving out the spirit of ethical inquiry, the new “Trek” isn’t true to the show, or its fans.”
489- “See there are alternate parallel realities, you can travel to, that look like ours, were in one reality you are dead, and another hitler won the war. You can travel to the past and affect the past. But I wasn’t aware of that you can travel to the past of another alternate parallel reality. This is the first time I’ve heard of this. But in the movie it is not refered to that Prime Spock went in the past to an alternate parallel reality, that’s where I’m lost in the movie. The film gave the impression he just traveled to his past Prime timeline an altered it for good.”
I agree!
When Uhura mentioned alternate timeline, personally, I think that was relevant only so far as the new movie is concerned. I think she was referring to their own forseeable timeline, not the timeline from TOS, TNG…etc.
#502 et al.
I’m not sure that’s possible – we need to remember the difference between episodic television and cinema.
Much as I’d love to see the kind of brilliant characterisation, snappy dialogue, and emotional depth of say The West Wing or Studio 60, we are not gonna get… Sorkin Trek any time soon, because it would make for a boring film that no-one would watch. And all that matters for movies is box office.
Try and do a blockbuster movie where the story revolves around a character getting a parking ticket, or breaking up with a boyfriend, and you’ll get no bums on seats and the kind of poisonous critique that Angels & Demons is currently drowning in.
Having said that, the new Trek film does manage to walk the line between emotion and action (but not thought) quite well, despite the myriad plot oddities and niggles, and it is a really good entertaining summer movie.
How do you do an intelligent Trek movie and still bring in audiences?
Why do people keep saying the kiss between Spock and Uhura came out of left field…? If you look at all TOS/Movies past, no – there isn’t any BIG connection. But there are moments in TOS that could’ve been explored that were handled very subtley. But in the movie: When Uhura is asigned to the Faragut, and she approaches Spock, thier discussion and Spock’s changing it to the big E, eludes to there being an interest. Uhura senses this. She too has an interest in him. Thus it progresses. Spock, in shock is then consoled by Uhura, her move to go beyond the flirting as she feels for him. You’ll notice she chides Kirk: “I hope you know what you’re doing.” upon Kirk’s having to make Spock lose it. Then it culminates in the kiss on the transporter. It does go by fast, but it is there. In my writing and life I am an observer, of people and thier nature, so I didn’t have a problem with it. Saldana and Quinto really sold me on it, they very talented, and very real in thier portrayal of it.
Are fans like this at conventions? I’d love to go to one, but I honestly can’t deal with the massive criticism…particularly when we were fortunate to get a movie. Much less a movie that actually is doing very well…
All the nitpicking on such a massive scale really sucks the fun out of it. I miss the days when Star Trek was more about philosophy than technobabble and omg! not a continuity error!
Fate has no place in Star Trek! If it did then Vulcan would not be destroyed. Just using fate/coincidence as an excuse to bring key characters together is just an example of the poor script writing people were worried about when they heard Orci and Kurtzman were writing the thing.
Star Trek is fundermentally about normal people not people “destined” by a divine birthright. Magic should not be part of STAR TREK Keep that with star wars, I mean I thought midi chlorians was a good explanation of the force but after heated discussion I’d agree that star wars should keep its mysticism and Star Trek should leave it out
I hope if we are to be inflicted with another JJVerse movie written by these two they have leart their lesson. NO MAGIC
What, you don’t want to see Kor pull a tribble out of his hat? Or, Penn & Trekker? David Copperfield doing transportation and levitation? Hrm… Too bad too, the sequel was going to be called The Wrath of the Karnie… jk =+D
LOL LOL LOL,
it’s just like College Humour to rehash a joke that was done months ago.
#502 – “…hell almost all of the movies, that this Star Trek movie is totally brainless. ”
Wild Borneo, as desperate as you are to believe this, it’s not. Not stop trolling please.
# 499
No, the next movie should not re-use any old TOS-stories or elements from them (except Klingons, Gorn or other races) Bring up something new .
501 “Within the context of this movie alone, it can work. But if previous movies have one set of rules and they are contradicted by this one, while apparently set within the same canon universe, then you can believe people have the right to complain.”
Then you need to read this:
http://io9.com/5238315/6-theories-of-time-travel-in-star-trek
Bob Orci:
How much time passed between the destruction of the Narada and Kirk getting his medal and becoming captain? I would prefer at least a year or two, as it would make a little more sense than a cadet automatically becoming captain, regardless of how many people he saved. It is just too hard to swallow and it kind of took a lot of believability away from the movie, making it even less realistic. I know you guys wanted to end with the movie with Kirk as captain and everyone in their place, but some line or two of explanation would have been nice.
BobOrci,
I thought that the reason Spock wanted Kirk off the ship was because Spock was afraid his difficulty over controlling his rage toward the person who killed his Mother might lead to his killing Nero,
if he ever caught up with him.
And he thought if he removed Kirk , his main opposton to meet with the fleet that he would have time to regain his emotional control .
He did say he was consumed with rage toward the person who killed his mother.
Just a thought.
Some very interesting points being brought up about the new movie, and I think some are addressing what it was I felt when I left the cinema. Mainly, the movie wasn’t really about anything.
It reminds me of an interview I read years ago, it might have been with Michael Piller, but I can’t remember. Anyway, someone was pitching a story idea to Gene Roddenberry and Gene’s response after hearing this tall tale was, “but what is it about?”, and that’s when the writer ‘got’ it.
The movie was fun, don’t get me wrong, but it was just missing something important. Maybe a lot of that ended up on the cutting room floor in order to make way for the big action scenes, much like a lot of character was cut from The Motion Picture to show off the special effects of the time, except with The Motion Picture there was still so much left to ponder at the end. Life, existence…big questions.
It’s a slightly meatier movie than say, Transformers…thank goodness, but I didn’t feel it hit the bar established by the best Trek. A lot of it seemed to favor visuals over reality….such as the engine room, which kind of made the Enterprise feel like the Tardis or something. lol
I don’t think Trek needs to be heavy handed with messages, but I would like to see it challenge audiences with some big ideas, something for us to think about and ponder after we have left the theater. Ideas that easily over shadow the plot.
Overall, I enjoyed it as a ‘hollywood’ Star Trek movie…but as much as I enjoyed it for the entertainment value, it still left me feeling empty at the end.
#502—”You did not please everyone.”
Nor did they have any illusions about that. Someone was always going to be disappointed.
“…the TV series commented on most of the big issues of the past 40 years: war, sexism, racism, animal rights, the environment, religion, sexuality.” (from the Newsweek article)
That may be how TOS as a whole body of work is generalized by many in retrospect, but the truth is—- that is somewhat exaggerated. For every story which dabbled in social commentary, there were two more stories whose sole purpose it was to put the characters in an action/dramatic sequence. Even if some of the closing dialogue made a rather lame attempt to speak on the human condition, the cloak was transparent.
“this Star Trek movie is totally brainless.”
It isn’t a groundbreaking commentary piece by any means, but it does raise questions (whether you agree with the film’s conclusions or not) about fatalism, and provides the audience with an all-too-often forgotten sense of optimism about what can be achieved when human beings work together towards a better future. And if you choose to dismiss the value of that—-I pity you.
But aboave all else, this movie made Star Trek fun again.
The film accomplished its goals—-to reintroduce the characters and entertain as many people as possible in the process. The characters were far more on target than anyone could realistically have hoped, and the film itself is a financial and critical success.
Someone was always going to fold his arms and stand in the corner with his bottom lip curled. There are a couple of million diverse fans with equally diverse expectations. It is the nature of the beast.
I am sorry that you are *that* guy. I took my kids to see it last night for a second time, and it was just as fun as the first viewing. We may see it again in theaters before its run is over. The theater was once again packed, and no one left without an approving smile.
# 405 Bob Orci:
“In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.. A good analogy for what we have done here would be to magine we were rebooting the modern adventures of a sailor, who at the time that his stories were told, it was believed the earth was flat. Now, years later, here in the re-whatever, we know the world is round. So our story exists in a world where the world is now round, despite that being a “canon” violation.”
So Bob, you changed the rules! You do know that’s cheating ;)
#514—-Agreed.
And since the battle with the Narada took place in 2258, there was plenty of make-believe time to play with. Moving the story forward a few years (to say, 2264) and depicting the promotion scene then would (IMO) have taken nothing away from the scene’s impact, but lended more credibility to Kirk being handed the keys to the pride of Starfleet.
I am wondering if there was ever any discussion about that, and why it was ultimately deemed necessary to do it in 2258.
#437—-”If there were an epic tale about facing the waterfalls at the edge of the Earth, let’s say the most beloved of all the stories (analogous to City On The Edge of Forever), but the conceit in the story contradicts the modern understanding, since the Earth is round and there is no edge, then the episode could never happen in the reboot. Ergo, this can’t be the same character if the story never happened.”
(playing devil’s advocate)
So then, since Nimoy and Bennett (by their own admission) consciously and willfully retconned the age of the Enterprise in TSFS—-does that mean that, post-1984, “The Menagerie” is no longer canon?
Does the retconning of the time period in which the TOS and original film era takes place to the 23rd Century in TWOK (further pinned down to “late” 23rd Century in TVH) negate pretty much the whole first half of season one of TOS?
(takes DA hat off)
The larger point is that Bob’s support of the MWI of QM is not canon. The question as to whether the film itself (as it plays out on screen) embraces either classical sci-fi interpretations of time travel or MWI is an open-ended one.
I second those who hope the next movie will raise the bar a little intellectually…and show us the warrior/philosopher that James Kirk became. In that sense, the movie is a kind of a promissory note. I’m confident that the talent is there to make something not just thrilling and spectacular, but truly exceptional.
Agreed, this discussion of why Spock didn’t even attempt to “repair” the timeline is of course academic . But it is interesting that this sage decision was made in the context of Spock’s own ambivalence about his people and his culture. I mean, he valued it of course (maybe too much to say “loved”) but there was tension there, and simply letting it go into that good night would definitely be fodder for discussion with whoever qualifies as Deanna Troi in this universe.
Dare we say that Spock letting Vulcan die is analogous, on a much greater scale, to Kirk trashing his father’s car…? Vulcan emotions are much more intense, after all!
I think the idea of Star Trek being “intellectual” is a conceit of its fans as a response to “Star Wars” these past 30 years.
“intellectuals” also tend to dumb down the masses into a ‘least common denominator’ whose bar may be higher than they think.
Growing up, Star Trek (TOS)’s message to me was that these were the good guys on the fastest ship, and would do anything to prevent violence. Kirk would destroy the ship if boarded, and only use force as a last resort. Spock would place himself under arrest too often, and McCoy would make sure they all kept their heads and hearts on straight.
The Vietnam War analogues, machine-God planets, and creator-seeking robots were all part of the fun, and entertaining on many levels, but what JJ&Co have captured is the seed of the characters, and I felt giddy seeing them at 44 years of age. It was like watching it on WPIX when I was 7.
489. Pinesol WROTE: “The film give the impression he just traveled to his past Prime timeline an altered it for good.”
EXACTLY!
As much as I love BobOrci’s metaphor of flat-Eart/round-Earth to compare the science of linear time-travel versus MWI QM, the fact remains that if someone makes a film today in which the major conceit is that the Earth is flat, that person is likely going to be laughed out of the theatre, because everyone KNOWS the Earth is round, because it is proven FACT.
MWI QM is THEORY. Plain and simple. If you ask the average person on street to explain the differences between the various theories of time travel, you’ll probably get a lot of blank stares. The fact is, whatever theory of time travel you use to tell a story, the average man off the street is going to assume the traditional linear method, unless you inform them differently in the film. This is something Trek does NOT do. So it is no surprise that Pinesol didn’t get it, much less the average Jane/Joe who could care less. And let’s face it, for a general non-Trekker audience, in this movie time travel does NOT need to work any differently.
The theory that Boborci is planning to assert “as long as [he is] here” actually only applies to how we got into this universe to begin with vis-a-vis canon and ONLY affects Trek fans, specifically those obsessed with canon. However, for all the objections raised above and more to surely come, it does canon a disservice.
All MWI QM actually gets us is the concept that ALL realities you can imagine including the universe, or various universes in which the past 40 years of Trek took place ARE STILL THERE. It’s a conceit to help hard-core Trekkers sleep at night.
In the film making, storytelling world, it has no other use, especially for a general broad-based audience who only care about being told a good, satisfying story, as simply as possible.
Now we get to my problem with MWI QM – in light of its irrelevance to the larger Hollywood movie, why bother? It is scientific THEORY, NOT FACT. There is no argument that this film is otherwise chock full of PROVEN scientific inaccuracies, some of which the average person might know, most not. So why cling to this one conceit as the absolute basis of science which cannot be violated? Unless specifically detailed in the film, the general audience is not going to know the difference, and they are not going to care which theory of time travel one applies, nor how outdated it might be. Clearly this is a self-serving decision which doesn’t necessarily improve the film. In fact, the old way of looking at time-travel is a MUCH MORE DRAMATIC plot device for time travel than “multiverse” (at least in the case of Star Trek – Stargate has been using a well explained multiverse storyline for years prior to Trek extremely effectively).
Let’s face it, the multiverse as presented here hurts more stories than it helps (at least without a way to get back and MWI QM doesn’t allow for that). It actually diminishes the value of the individual because no matter what happens in THIS universe, there are an unlimited number of duplicates alive and well in an unlimited number of parallel universes. So why bother with trying to save Vulcan in this timeline (which is no longer possible anyway), when it exists in numerous other realities? Suddenly there is less reason to care for anybody or anything anymore. THANKFULLY, the general audience which is helping to fuel the revival of ST is blissfully OBLIVIOUS to this mind-bending, morally debilitating back-story and underlying scientific premise. They will simply see this movie the way they saw “Back To The Future” and the massively successful “Terminator” franchise, regardless of boborci’s intentions. AND frankly, until MWI QM is actually PROVEN, nor should they. Nothing is REAL about Star Trek, it is ENTERTAINMENT, so why should this thing that actually hurts the dramatic storytelling, preventing it from being less entertaining?
Using this “more current theory” of time travel, there can’t be any more time travel stories anyway unless we want to move our new protagonists into yet another new tangential alternate universe and really confuse the hell out of the general audience. So, I don’t expect to ever see another time travel movie under Ocri/Kurtzman. And without further onscreen explanation of the time travel mechanics that got Nimoy/Spock there, NONE of what boborci says here is canon. Which means everyone is free to view time travel any way they want.
In plain language, this version of Trek is a complete reboot in every practical way. The application of the MWI-QM theory is merely a device to pacify the hard-core fans that everything they know is still in the old universe where they left it, despite the fact I believe that Paramount has no intention of ever going back to it, EVER, so long as these movies and spinoffs continue earning record blockbuster numbers and no better ideas come along. As far as the average audience goes – AND REALLY WHAT ELSE IS THERE IN A COMMERCIAL FILM? – they will continue to see this story as conventional time travel. Only the lack of canonical knowledge prevents further time travel attempts. In other words, only hard-core fans will know. So until this becomes on-screen canon, the point is moot. Trying to reconcile ANYTHING in this new film with known canon is pointless. It’s like trying to reconcile the new Battlestar Galactica with the original. Seriously. Forget what Boborci says: ALL YOU KNOW IS WHAT’S ON THE SCREEN. If the explanation is not on screen, then there’s no explanation. PERIOD. Make one up if it helps you sleep better at night.
And in response to boborci’s reply in #478 where he wrote tongue-in-cheek: “We’ll try harder. I promise”, all I have to say is, yeah, I think maybe you DID overthink this.
425. Greg2600
“In addition, throughout the history of Star Trek, the characters have gone back to the past, changed or fixed things, and returned to the future, very much linearly. It’s kind of difficult to say that all of sudden that is no longer the case. Nimoy/Spock kind of alluded to that.”
PS: Was it necessary to blow up our beloved Vulcan, site of Amok Time? Very painful!”
Totally agree with all you have said here Greg2600.
I am still feeling that pain of losing Vulcan even if this is a parallel universe, I don’t like the idea of being without it.
I suppose you could argue that the Red Matter form of time travel, when used leads to a parallel universe where as all previous forms of time travel, seen in Star Trek lead to the more familiar “Linear” time travel we are used to.
Thanks to Bob Orci for taking the time to post on here. It’s really cool that you have taken time to answer the guy’s questions on here. I have read each of your replies with great interest.
I’ve only seen the movie once so far, I went with family and friends and we made a big thing of it. Most of us who went had loved something of Star Trek over the years. The general response was positive from my friends who have dipped in and out of Star trek. But for my Dad and myself who have followed everything Star Trek religiously since TOS the changes were very hard to take. After we had seen it I kept saying “it’s a Parallel universe” to my dad but it was as much for myself really, so I could get my head around the changes
Serious question for you though, if you are still out there?
If this is a Parallel universe does it have a name? We already had the Mirror universe, so will Prime Spock or maybe someone else on screen name this one?
I have to agree with some others on here that it felt more like this was wiping the previous timeline instead of creating aother to exist beside it.
I didn’t pick up on the conversion you mention Spock has at the end with Prime Spock. I mean I heard it but didn’t register that was what Prime Spock was getting at. I do plan to watch it again soon so I will make sure I try and take more of it in.
I know it can’t be easy trying to please everyone, especially the canon freaks like me. We are indeed incredibly fortunate to have your interaction on here. Your passion for this project is clear to see. Thanks again for taking the time to listen to all of us.
#523—”In plain language, this version of Trek is a complete reboot in every practical way. ”
I disagree. The fact that the film acknowledges previously established continuity precludes it from being a “complete reboot”. The advantages of a reboot are provided, but without requiring the audience to pretend that everything they know from previous material (regardless of the degree of said knowledge in one indivual or another) never occurred within the fictional realm of Star Trek.
“…they will continue to see this story as conventional time travel… So until this becomes on-screen canon, the point is moot….If the explanation is not on screen, then there’s no explanation. ”
Agreed.
“Trying to reconcile ANYTHING in this new film with known canon is pointless. ”
For you, perhaps. So long as it remains “fun” for some of us to tie this together within canon, it isn’t pointless. Entertainment is the point, and those of us who appreciate canon have been entertaining ourselves and each other for decades by doing just that. Is it productive? No. But it’s better than burning ants with a magnifying glass…:)
Even if one day Bob (and he hasn’t yet, as you have pointed out) fills the dialogue of a Star Trek movie with notions of MWI that seemingly invalidate past treatments of time travel in Star Trek—-it wouldn’t be the first retcon of previously established material in the franchise.
My bottom line is, this film itself does nothing to contradict known canon, and reconciling it with previous Trek has actually been much easier than doing so with—for instance—TSFS.
Never underestimate a resourceful canonista…
#525 – ACTUALLY, the film does NOT acknowledge previously established canon continuity. We have no idea from which universe this Nimoy/Spock comes from. Seriously, there is nothing in the movie that states he came from the future universe we know, or the future universe presented here.
As many have pointed out, there is nothing in the movie that explicitly states the universe we know actually still exists. For the average non-Trekker, they are going to assume Terminator time travel rules (which comes out next weekend to remind everyone how traditional cinematic time travel is accomplished) and thus for anyone who has not been listening to boborci, they are going to assume that Nero and Nimoy/Spock traveled linearly back in time and DESTROYED everything that came after in this universe.
I prefer not to assume everything is destroyed, so I see this Trek as reboot, where Nimoy/Spock is from yet another parallel alternate universe where he did not have the same experiences as the Spock I know from the last 40 years. In any event, I can enjoy the new exploits, without worrying about contrived recton with established canon and knowing the universe I grew up with is safe and sound out there.
We have only boborci to tell us off-camera (thus not official canon) how he thinks events transpired, for which he has to do a lot of rectoning himself to shoehorn them in with established canon. Even “Countdown” (which is NOT canon) depicts a slightly altered universe from what we know. NONE of this is canon and NOTHING depicted in the movie either contradicts or confirms your theories or mine. PERIOD. And without specific on-screen evidence to the contrary, I am confident that the term reboot is aptly applied here.
500. martin – May 16, 2009
Boborci-
Thank you. After 3 viewings, I really love it. This 3rd viewing Friday night was with my non-fan, 40-something year old wife, who did not know who Chekov, Sulu, or Uhura was. She knew enough that McCoy doesn’t cotton to Spock, and that Shatner is Kirk. She really enjoyed it, and we spent the time coming home and I had to answer who was or was not in TOS and how they are different now. She was not surprised at all to find out that the same pair of writers made this Trek so entertaining as did a movie about stupid transforming robots that we both surprisingly loved so much a couple years ago (and are both looking forward to this year). I think that the two of us agree that how the humor works in both films is the key.
I have to say, that Pine as Kirk really works well. I do think that for me, while so much of it seemed like Kirk, the last piece where it snaps in and he is completely Kirk for me is when Spock Prime calls him James T. Kirk.
I really don’t have much in nitpicks, just a couple questions:
1) Is the transporter technology from some other canonical source that I am missing? Is this from the book “Spock Must Die”? Or is it from whole cloth?
2) (ok, here is a nit) – When Robou (sp) goes to the shuttle bay, why does his very construction site looking elevator come down to the floor instead of coming up? Isn’t the shuttle bay at the top of the ship?
__________
kind words, and thanks for going to see it so much — geez! Yeah, we agree that humor is key.
1. As for the transporter tech, I don’t recall us reading that anywhere… necessity of story was the mother of invention there, although I wouldn’t be surprised if some clever fan fiction had come to a similar device.
2. Oh-oh! Let me go study the matter and get back to you!:) I can’t remember now since the Kelvin is introduced mid-rotation — I can’t remember which way is up! Nice.
501. Pinesol – May 16, 2009
The part where you say they tell us in the movie and that this is a new timeline is correct. It’s stated explicitly.
The part where you say this is fiction and there can be multiple rules for time travel, that is incorrect. Any fictitious still has to be logical constructed and work by a consistent set of rules. If it doesn’t, then dramatic structure also goes out of the window and then people have a totally valid reason to complain.
Within the context of this movie alone, it can work. But if previous movies have one set of rules and they are contradicted by this one, while apparently set within the same canon universe, then you can believe people have the right to complain.
———–
Sure. Absolutely. Complaining is part of the fun. But ultimately, the petitioners to the court are essentially arguing that our most egregious Star Trek canon violation is to UPDATE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
To which your reply should be, “Ye canna change the laws of physics!”
But we did.
522, good point. This movie is an origins movie. If the question is, “What is it about?” The answer is that it’s about how the legendary crew of the USS Enterprise got together.
Without Kirk, Spock, Bones, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, and Chekov, that WOULD be no Star Trek. No TNG. No DS9. No Voyager. And certainly no ST: Enterprise.
Star Trek relates to us on a very personal level. It presents archetypes that reflect off our own lives, depending on our own personal circumstances. Are we closer to Kirk or are we closer to Spock? Are we young, bright things like Chekov, or are we wizened elders, like Spock Prime? What decisions do they make when given hard choices, and how do they compare to our own?
There is great legitimacy to personal stories … Hamlet, for example, is a very personal story despite the fact that there are no evident historical consequences to any of the deeds in that play. I hardly see anyone asking, “What was Hamlet about?”
502. The Wild Man of Borneo – May 16, 2009
Mr. Orci,
You did not please everyone. And you did not answer my point. I know that you realize compared to The Motion Picture, The Wrath of Khan…hell almost all of the movies, that this Star Trek movie is totally brainless. Why did you take this approach?
This newsweek article says it best. If you guys are in charge of Star Trek please respect the intelligence of it in the next movie.
“the show has worked as part of this tradition, using extraterrestrial settings to ask ethical and philosophical questions about the way people behave. In this way, the TV series commented on most of the big issues of the past 40 years: war, sexism, racism, animal rights, the environment, religion, sexuality.”
http://www.newsweek.com/id/196005
“Sure, it’s just a summer blockbuster, but by leaving out the spirit of ethical inquiry, the new “Trek” isn’t true to the show, or its fans.”
I actually debated that reporter in his misguided interview of me. He even begrudgingly agrees in the article that there is an overt ethical theme in the movie regarding the chain of command and cheating, and when to follow orders and break the ruels (both in the story and behind the camera), etc…. And that’s just the ONE overt theme. LIke R2-D2 you’re going to have to look closer to find what he missed. We’re trying not to spoon feed it to you, and some people mistake that for dumbing it down.
504. Kirky – May 16, 2009
When Uhura mentioned alternate timeline, personally, I think that was relevant only so far as the new movie is concerned. I think she was referring to their own forseeable timeline, not the timeline from TOS, TNG…etc.
———-
You’re right that her focus is on her future, as it of course would be. After all, her intellectually knowing that there is a parallel universe would not lead her to say, “oh my god… what if I never kiss Kirk in this Universe which I somehow suspect I might have done…?” Whatever her alternate self if doing would not be her primary concern.
526 wrote, “And without specific on-screen evidence to the contrary, I am confident that the term reboot is aptly applied here.”
Isn’t a reboot actually worse than assuming that parallel universes exist?
And if it isn’t, then why not?
Correction of a typo in the above (529), which should read,
If the question is, “What is it about?”, then the answer is that it’s about how the legendary crew of the USS Enterprise got together.
508. Craig – May 16, 2009
Have previously discussed how the Quantum Mechanics in a multiverse theory acts like fate.
#526—-”We have no idea from which universe this Nimoy/Spock comes from. Seriously, there is nothing in the movie that states he came from the future universe we know, or the future universe presented here.”
There is no reason NOT to believe that Spock Prime (as he is identified in the credits) is NOT from the timeline we know. Everything in the dialogue is meant to present him as being the Spock we know—-from the future we know, and I hardly think there are any significant amounts of people out there who are failing to take it that way.
Anyone who is not is simply looking for reasons not to do so, IMO.
“…they are going to assume that Nero and Nimoy/Spock traveled linearly back in time and DESTROYED everything that came after in this universe.”
But even that doesn’t preclude previously established material from being acknowledged by the presence of Spock Prime, as they would naturally also deduce that it was a series of events in the previous timeline which led to this—-since it is explicitly stated in the film that both Nero and Spock are from the future.
“And without specific on-screen evidence to the contrary, I am confident that the term reboot is aptly applied here.”
I believe that the name “Spock Prime” next to Leonard Nimoy appears on screen.
514. VZX – May 16, 2009
Bob Orci:
How much time passed between the destruction of the Narada and Kirk getting his medal and becoming captain? I would prefer at least a year or two, as it would make a little more sense than a cadet automatically becoming captain, regardless of how many people he saved. It is just too hard to swallow and it kind of took a lot of believability away from the movie, making it even less realistic. I know you guys wanted to end with the movie with Kirk as captain and everyone in their place, but some line or two of explanation would have been nice.
—————————
There a are few subtle transitions in the movie that are purposely ambiguous to allow debate about how long things took to happen, like warping to Vulcan or the very thing you bring up in order to leave it in the eye of the beholder. But yes, we wanted to absolutely end with Kirk as Captain.
534, look at it this way:
If time travel is Marty-McFly linear, then there is nothing to prevent some future civilization or means from restoring it. But how could it be restored if it didn’t, in some sense, exist? There is also no statute of limitations on how long a timeline can be allowed to “not-exist” before being restored.
So, either way you look at it, the Prime timeline exists.
I think that some people would like to believe that the Prime timeline is not destroyed because they’d like to believe that there are still things going on “there,” “right now.” However, if things are to be capable of being restored, those things are STILL “happening,” “right now,” “in the Prime future.” It’s just that they aren’t BEING SEEN — i.e, they are not “canon.”
I am putting quotes around the above for a reason: In the Real Universe, we cannot possibly know which of the events depicted in the last 40 years in Star Trek canon, will in fact be canon. For one thing, in the final analysis, it’s all fiction. For another, even if it is some kind of future history, none of us can know it.
#523, for me no. For others yes. The basis of my problem with trying to reconcile this film with pre-existing canon is that it causes too many logical problems, in part because what came before it wasn’t even consistent with itself, but telling me that one of the pivotal stories (City on the Edge of Forever), defining the relationship between the Kirk, Spock & McCoy I grew up with , is no longer possible because of the rules of this new installment which enables the canon connection with the past, is unacceptable to me.
I never had a problem with a reboot. If you recall, the biggest problem in the very beginning was the fans were insisting that you couldn’t recast TOS characters, that Shatner WAS Kirk and so on. I knew from the beginning that the right actors could absolutely pull it off. So for me, Nimoy serves no other purpose in this movie than a nostalgic nod to the original from which this film is derived. It is no different than casting Richard Hatch as the VP in the reboot of BSG – it was a respectful nod to the original.
Other fans NEED the connection and I suspect are the same ones who don’t mind playing the mind twisting games required to explain all the discrepancies and problems this new film creates with existing canon.
536. Hat Rick – May 16, 2009
Nice. Trippy.
537, consider that the timeline for each person within it IS their own personal “prime” timeline. I don’t think that quantum mechanics disputes this. Consider, also, that futures are affected regardless of whether the individual lives of time travelers are affected.
If that’s the case, then why would the sacrifices made in “City on the Edge of Forever” be any less important? Edith Keeler still had to die in order for that particular timeline to continue to exist.
The only discrepancy between the QM view as espoused by the writers of this movie, and the time travel theory espoused in COTEF, is that the Federation would continue to exist in the Original crew’s timeline.
Under the currently espoused QM view, as seen in the new movie, Kirk, Spock, and Bones would be akin to temporal police, trying to undo a wrong in an adjacent timeline. But the fate of billions, or possibly trillions, still lie in the balance, even if Kirk, Spock, and Bones could still return to their Original timeline unaffected.
One might also speculate that the QM theory actually explains how Kirk’s glasses in ST IV could have been manufactured in the first place. If the Marty-McFly linear theory of time is espoused, then who made those glasses?
#534 – Closettrekker wrote: “and I hardly think there are any significant amounts of people out there who are failing to take it that way.”
EXACTLY, I think both the general audiences and ST fans see it this way. However, in the absence of a MWI QM concept explanation, all but those who follow Orci’s background explanation will assume traditional timeline and destruction of the KNOWN universe. In other words, there is no going back to what was, there is only now what is (as long as Orci is driving the bus with multiverse theory).
Also, “Prime” means absolutely NOTHING, since it is not defined in the movie. Prime could be from any parallel universe. There’s no question that the characters deduce that previous events from a future parallel universe led them to this past alternate universe. However, it does NOT define which universe this Spock came from.
But isn’t the bigger issue for fans whether the original Trek-verse still exists or not? This film DOES not address that question, whether you call it a reboot or something else. Unfortunately, the ONLY reason I refuse to acknowledge established canon here, is because of Orci’s insistence that I see this via his non-canon multiverse goggles, which prevents Spock from behaving in a manner I expect him to (and the only way to preserve the original universe). And if I see it in a linear timeline way, he still does not act the way I expect (and the original universe is still destroyed). Or perhaps, I just don’t want to have to work that hard to recton the details (which actually do bother me when not adhered to in all films, not just Trek).
Either way, you have your illusion and I have mine. May you find your way as pleasant.
Thanks, Mr. Orci (538).
This wasn’t a brainless movie. Sure, it didn’t bludgeon the messages home like some Trek movies (and many episodes. especially TOS) have done. Even Trek II and VI (my faves) spoon feed (as Mr. Orci said) the platitudes to the audience. And later on, did we need Picard listing off exactly how socially and morally advanced mankind is in the future (although that worked in the flick as he needed to be reminded of that later in the film when he needed a time out)? Show me, don’t tell me — which is what this flick did. Later Trek was like that guy who constantly talks about how much he’s going to do without actually ever doing it. And it sure as heck looked into Daddy issues and fear of failure/rejection/not measuring up…
At 539, I meant to write, “Edith Keeler still had to die in order for that particular timeline not to continue to exist.”
Actually, I meant to ask — why are people so angry/sad/afraid that these new stories will now start from scratch? I joked (like many, including the writers, I think) that this won’t erase your collection of DVDs, pocket novels, replica ships and Scotty bobble heads. It won’t erase the last 43 years. But are you afraid that these new stories will turn the characters into jokes (Star Trek IV, V) or move in a radically different direction, like BSG? Or that it’s disrespectful to the original writers? I guess I’m interested in why this bothers people so much (over just a total reboot, which, had it happened would probably also bothered some.).
Again, my friend’s worry was that “the timeline change means these aren’t our characters.”
Hmmm.
#539 – your point about Kirk’s glasses is a dramatic conceit, though flawed since the glasses were made well before 1986. While I admit it is a paradox, that is one of the conceits audiences have made for decades when dealing with time travel stories. It comes with the territory of suspending your disbelief for such a premise. But it’s NOT real. It’s NOT proven. There is no time travel except in fiction. All theories are just that theories. Unfortunately, under Orci’s view of time travel in this film, even if Kirk, Spock & McCoy continue to learn lessons from (what must now be “accidental”) time travel (as in GoF) and ethically compel themselves to infringe upon changes they deem unacceptable for another timeline with no knowledge of how those events might turn out in that time line, they still have no way to get back. So any future stories might follow our so-called “Prime” group, but where time travel is involved, it moves them into yet another alternate universe. PERIOD. There is no recton with “Terminator”’s the-past-affects-the-future and the new Trek science witch creates a new universe with every incursion into the past.
I feel like an idiot. I saw the movie four times and picked up on every single subtle Star Trek reference that us fans can be all giddy about. But I only now realized why Kirk in the new movie is eating an apple whilst beating the Kobiyashi Maru. (sigh.) If that reference were a snake, it would’ve bit me. And it just now bit me! Bravo for yet another nod to Star Trek lore!!! This new movie never ceases to amaze me….
Bob Orci
Was the timeline that Nero visited the The original past up to the point
that George Kirk is killed?
Or was it always an alternate timeline bcause Nero was destined to travel there?
#500, 527
I pointed out the direction of travel of Robau’s turbolift trip to the shuttle bay in #210.
It is pretty clear that the shuttle bay is in the hull *above* the saucer – and the shuttle flies out *that* way up. Unless there’s some 2001-esque Orion lunar transit like thing which spins you around to whatever the local up and down are (and he’s wearing velcro shoes and a cloche hat), then the turbolife is going the WRONG way.
Sorry. Pedantry is a life-long habit.
But I love the movie – will see it for the fourth time next week. Just got the book and will start tonight. Bought the score today (bit weak, sorry MG).
You guys are costing me a fortune. If I was an MP I could claim it all back….
546- Holy smokes Jordan. I was just thinking that was part of Kirk’s smartass attitude, and while I guess it is– I just realized where that apple came from…. or turns up later.
547. GaryS – May 16, 2009
Bob Orci
Was the timeline that Nero visited the The original past up to the point
that George Kirk is killed?
Or was it always an alternate timeline bcause Nero was destined to travel there?
__________
We think of it is as identical to the original until Nero arrives.
#540—”But isn’t the bigger issue for fans whether the original Trek-verse still exists or not? ”
For some, maybe.
For me it is enough to say that it *did* exist—and it is a sequence of events within that timeline that leads to this story.
Where in QM does it say the pre existing (The Prime timeline) timeline still exists, that’s what my head can’t get around.
boborci wrote “There a are few subtle transitions in the movie that are purposely ambiguous to allow debate about how long things took to happen, like warping to Vulcan or the very thing you bring up in order to leave it in the eye of the beholder. But yes, we wanted to absolutely end with Kirk as Captain.”
I’ve already written about this in the comments, but since you’re kind enough to be here and respond to this stuff — which is generous and gratifying — I’ll follow up. It wasn’t my favorite thing about the movie that Starfleet could get the distress call from Vulcan and then send the fleet to Vulcan in less than the time it took Nero to drill down to the planet’s core.
Did you talk about this at all while making the movie? The sort of Horatio Hornblower/Master and Commander sense of a ship being out on its own in distant reaches, versus the immediacy of having everyone be able to be anywhere at a moment’s notice? As the loaded question implies, I do miss some of that sense of a ship being OUT THERE, where no one has gone before, and where it takes a while to get to.
Thanks for your interest in all this.
Where the new time line wipes out the old.
@522
“I think the idea of Star Trek being “intellectual” is a conceit of its fans as a response to “Star Wars” these past 30 years…“intellectuals” also tend to dumb down the masses into a ‘least common denominator’ whose bar may be higher than they think.”
I guess this comment was at least partly in response to mine (521), so a short response:
Anybody with arrogance enough to think he’s the smartest in the room is a fool, not an “intellectual.” But there’s a hint of anti-intellectual snobbery in AJ’s comment–and haven’t we had about enough of that in the last 8 years?
“Star Trek” was exploring interesting themes on television years before “Star Wars”, and was celebrated for that years before, too. It wasn’t unique in that regard, since “The Twilight Zone” (to name just one show) was doing similar things before, just in a different format. But to say that ST’s philosophy (yeah, sorry, big word…) is just a conceit, or just in response to “Star Wars” popularity, is silly.
Mr. Orci –
I might have missed this somewhere else.
So can we assume that the events of First Contact are part of the past in this timeline as well?
I love the new movie, but I’m still trying to figure out some of the time travel paradox stuff.
#553
Actually that comment about Master & Commander makes me think that the next movie should go that way.
It would be interesting to see that fantastic chase and battle with the Waakzaamheid from Desolation Island, followed by the wrecking, mutiny and stranding on Desolation….
Or…. something like the voyages of Captain Cook across the South Pacific.
This would give the chance to explore the vastness of space in a voyage of exploration, meet new peoples, suffer great physical and emotional challenges, provide jeopardy….
#557
I meant to say… see it done *in space* !!
552. Kirky
Where in QM does it say the pre existing (The Prime timeline) timeline still exists, that’s what my head can’t get around.
There no explaination. Orci’s is only saying that the Prime timeline still exists to shut up the old time fans, because the Prime timeline is in fact erased.
The Star Trek temporal mechanics of this are much easier to discern than anyone wants to think.
If you go back in time, you’re either wrecking a timeline, OR restoring it.
Nero WRECKED the timeline. He is the temporal event that erases a whole future and writes a new one. Temporal agents who can discover and head off this event before it happens can avert the wrecking; that was a common if but confusing theme in the early Suliban War / Temporal War arc of “Enterprise.” Daniels was always showing up and sending Archer to “fix” something or intervene in some way.
Since Nero started destroying stuff the moment he appeared in the past, it’s obvious that anyone new who comes to RESTORE the timeline has to catch Nero at the instant he appears in front of the Kelvin. By stopping Nero at various later points, you save Vulcan or some other ships or worlds, but you have to catch and destroy him in that first moment.
So I think it’s a totally blank timeline going forward waiting for new and different stories. Unless someone wants to save Vulcan, or try and save the Kelvin.
I loved the Movie !!!
Couple of questions however…
Pike mentioned that the Star Fleet was engaged in the Laurentian System… Who are they fighting ? The Klingons ?
Is one of Nero’s crew from the 23rd century…picked up from Rura Penthe…when fighting Kirk a romulan stated that he did not expect humans to be so weak… 24th century romulans would already know this…considering romulans and humans never engaged in hand to hand combat during the Earth Romulan War of 2256-61….
552. Kirky
Where in QM does it say the pre existing (The Prime timeline) timeline still exists, that’s what my head can’t get around.
Think about it this way. In order to get around the paradox, both timelines *have to* exist. Most likely the events of the future in this timeline will be very different. Knowing about the supernova, they will probably succeed in saving the people of Romulus and Nero will never go back in time to cause the start of the new timeline, therefore it would unfold the same way as the old timeline. But then Romulus would be destroyed and Nero would go back and so on…. Therefore, these two timelines are inextricably connected, the events in one are needed for the events in the other to occur. I think there is some poetry in that.
God, I love time travel stories and even I’M GETTING A HEADACHE reading these different theories!!
514; 535 — VZX; boborci –
I would prefer to think that a little time passed from the destruction of the Nerada and the installment of Kirk as Captain, but I can’t see how there would be that much time at all. Kirk is presented with a medal for saving the Federation and at the same ceremony he relieves Pike. Of course, Pike was already named Admiral by this time, but why would there be a delay in getting Kirk a medal?
However, I actually became fine with an instant promotion to captain of the Enterprise, because it is already firmly established if you breach orders and save Earth, the general reward given is command of the Enterprise.
On the other hand, there was a certain amount of damage done to the Enterprise, so it would require some amount of time before Kirk went off on the mission.
boborci- was there any thought to having Shatner do the voiceover? I do think that it might be a little strange to fit him in somewhere in the movie, but he could have done the voiceover and IMO, it would have added to the movie.
Bob-First of all I absolutely LOVE the movie. It was not as easy task you guys had to reinvent the franchise, draw the masses, make the hard core trek fans happy and please a studio. I think all and all you guys did a great job. I have read Countdown and I love it, I do feel that more of the events in Countdown should be on the screen than is. Makes one wonder what was cut out in editing. As it stands now the explanation for Nero and Spock’s presence in the past is too expository and the execution of the mind meld was not one of the best that have been put to screen. A lot of the mysticism that has been present in the past mind melds seemed mssing here.
BIG question why is the Enterprise built in Ohio AND much later and much larger than in the PRIME timeline?
A lot has been said about the multiverse theory but in reality in cinema and literature it isn’t as sexy as having the dire straights of all your family and friends wiped out by an incursion into the past such as Nero’s. I do love the idea that in this instance that the Prime timeline remains intact.
I do think that keeping in with the TREK tradition firnly hammered home by Enterprise that we mind screw ourselves into believing that one can travel back and forth in linear time and mess things up and have instances like in Enterprise “In a Mirror Darkly” did you see that by the way? -where an anonomly takes you back in time AND jumps or creates the tangent universe.
Although not perfectly in line with current phyisics it seems to be the only answer that works in satisfying the hundreds of time travel stories TREK has done in the past as well as the new film and our desire to preserve the present timeline.
Just like Janeway. I hate Quantum Mechanics.
386,533. Boborci
So your saying this this universe is an a fluke of the multiverse and just put the story in this one? God that is very dense!
Please say the next story you tell related to Star Trek wont depend of the specific itteration of the multiverse but rather the characters choices an accept there is little evil in Star Trek on different agendas/alliances, basing every movie on a vendetta is tired.
Do both of these and I’ll possible give the JJVerse a closer look but to be honest the idea that these people will be wiped and replaced with more alternates is preventing me from committing to these characters. Give a guarantee that these are that the LAST itteration we’ll see of Kirk and Spock and that will also give me a reason to commit to the JJVerse.
Saw the film today. It seemed to go go by very fast, but overall I liked it. I was one of the naysayers, but it was quite good. The Enterprise is still butt-ugly, to me, bu that’s just my opinion. :P
My biggest nitpick: Are Vulcan’s just totally clueless, and do they have no ships with weapons anywhere on their planet? Narada shows up in orbit, lowers the drill and starts making a big hole. Surely they have a planetary sensor grid that alerted them to fact that seven starships had just been destroyed. Obviously the thing drilling into their planet isn’t peaceful. Does no one think to send a ship or two after the drill itself? The thing’s only attached by a rather thin tether to the Narada. I kept asking myself, “Why does no one just sever that thing?” After Spock did it at the end I was like, “Finally, somebody figured that part out.”
Anywho, just my .02. Quite enjoyable, otherwise, though I could do without the brewery for an engine room (How’s Scotty supposed to get any work done with all that free beer flowing?) and Enterprise is either so big it dwarfs a Galaxy Class Starship, or there are some serious scaling issues with the massive interior sets fitting into a roughly 300M vessel.
“I actually debated that reporter in his misguided interview of me. He even begrudgingly agrees in the article that there is an overt ethical theme in the movie regarding the chain of command and cheating, and when to follow orders and break the ruels (both in the story and behind the camera)…. We’re trying not to spoon feed it to you, and some people mistake that for dumbing it down.”
Spoon feeding us? My friend, if WE have to write the entirety of the movie’s philosophy and implications ourselves, entirely under our own interest and direction, that’s just you dropping the ball, any way you slice it. Chain of Command and cheating? Where were the sides? What were the implications? How was any of it presented, besides us thinking Kirk is a complete jerk and then leaving us to hope for him with no sensible outcome… on top not even really redeeming him from his behaviours in any way besides that it’s fate. It was half-presented and half-discussed, and that is not sufficient.
(PS. The bigger screen did not correct the camera flares, sorry!)
#568 – really? well he saved the damned ship. And the earth. He I guess he won’t learn anything until The Wrath of Khan. Oh, wait. Although, hopefully there were academy scenes we didn’t see of the walking “stack of books” described in the second pilot.
There were definite themes there — teamwork, trust, revenge, responsibility, er, go go boots…
If anybody cares just went to my local theatre to see it again, for the 7th time, and asked the girl in the ticket booth how it was selling and how well it stacked up against A&D and she said that Star Trek Out sold A&D tonight.
It was also sold out for all evening showings this entire weekend at the Imax in Fort Lauderdale.
#569 -
Reaally, now? So if all you say is true, then i’d argue a big theme was the psychological impact colours have on behaviour. For example, the most up to date studies in behavioural psychology have shown that in soccer, teams with dark uniforms tend to take more penalties. If you can read all those themes into the movie, then I can read my theme in there just as safely. All those prime color uniforms and the ways everyone is behaving, it has to do with psychology. Why do you think they made Kirk’s uniform black? It’s obviously commentary on psychological behaviour regarding colour-based stimuli.
Except that it’s clearly not.
seriously, we could both read things into the movie until our faces were blue. Doesn’t mean the movie talked about it, or even addressed it.
i think the solutions to command issues were overly easy and bare bones. It was all half-presented and half-discussed. it wasn’t there – until you put it there yourself. So good for you, O-pine-ing!
The writers are trying to make Trekkies believe in “the alternate timeline” crap so they won’t alienate them from the franchise. They should’ve just manned up and said, “We’ve destroyed the original timeline intentionally so we won’t have to bother with continuity errors, deal with it!” TNG’s “Yesterday’s Enterprise” disproves the alternate timeline theory!
Oh, leave them alone already on this #572. Your complaint is only at all valid because they didn’t describe their perspective within the four corners of the movie (essentially meaning it’s only relevant if you happen across exactly the same sources as the writers while trying to sort out the poorly explained events of the film). But as of right now this alternative timeline argument is over. It has been explained, and very well by Mr. Orci, and so let us not go overboard and get a warning for trolling, ok?
It’s going to be okay. … They still haven’t defined red matter. They can bring Vulcan back in a second.
It is long been known that Romulans use artificial sigularities instead of warp cores do they use red matter in the process of creating these? Is Red Matter and Trilithium related? As Soran stole the Trilithium from the Romulans in Generations and that had the capability of destroying a star. Or is it more similar to protomatter as in Search for spock we saw how unstable it was but in DS9:Second Sight it seems that by the Prime 24th century the ability to control its reactions had evolved.
564:
I Don’t know, I just wanted to see or just learn in a line or two that Kirk did get some experience as a lieutenant aboard the Faragut or something during the time the Enterprise was being repaired. Even if it was just a year.
Oh well, it is a nitpick, and I enjoyed the movie overall, but it is one of those things that lingers for me. Even some non-Trek fans brought this up with me after seeing the movie.
Yeah it does seem odd that given all the pre released hype that this film would be more “real” it requires large leaps of faith and health suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy it.
The Transporting,The elements of fate,Kirks promotion,The idea that Pike a starship captain has a code that will turn of Earth(Home of Starfleet HQ) defenses(I mean to set the auto destruct on their own ship Kirk and Picard needed more than one command code)
#551. Closettrekker WROTE: “For me it is enough to say that it *did* exist—and it is a sequence of events within that timeline that leads to this story.”
Of that I can completely agree. There just isn’t anything in the movie that proves unequivocally that those sequence of events are the ones that we know from the last 40 years, or a similar sequence of events from another alternate parallel universe. Since so much is left to personal interpretation without any canonical (on-screen) clarification, I am simply stuck with the fact that entire episodes and films of TOS, TNG, etc. must be thrown out because they do not conform to the new arbitrary view of time travel – and in the case of Trek, I am warming to the conclusion that it is an inappropriate view for future dramatic story-telling purposes.
At the risk of being Johnny one-note here, for me this is a reboot. The fact that the film even suggests a tie to a previous timeline (ours or a similar alternate one), only applies to Spock and Nero/Crew and not to a single other character in the movie – everyone and everything having been effectively re-booted from the Trek “universe” we know. Nimoy/Spock is the thinnest of connecting threads whose presence in the film is not definitively explained, except off-camera by Orci, which is NOT canon. In fact, if you took Nimoy/Spock completely out of this movie and transfered the revelation of the alternate timeline to Nero, I don’t think it would affect the movie one iota for the larger general audiences which, let’s face it, are giving Trek the huge numbers it is receiving at the box-office (and in that sense the only ones who really matter to Paramount). Would it affect Trek fans adversely? I really doubt it given their overall enthusiastic response to the film.
For you, considering this as an extension of known canon, regardless of how much rectoning you have to do is a comfort to “help you sleep at night”. For other fans, the paucity of on-screen details in this film allows them to snooze peacefully by permitting the original universe to continue on and creating new stories in parallel (again with significant rectoning). However, reconciling anything more than that with Orci’s off-camera doctrine, is impossible. So, what acts as my Lunesta is erasing all the contractions with existing canon and simply calling it what for all practical purposes it is: A REBOOT, creating fresh brand new canon. The inclusion of Nimoy for me is merely a respectful nod that the original series existed in one form or another and not something I have to reconcile “in-universe”.
I seriously doubt that any of the ambiguities regarding the exact origins of this timeline will ever be canonically reconciled on-screen, if for no other reason than there is no reason to do so in future movies. We’re here now. But the main reason I don’t think we will see further explanation is because of the exact reasons I put forth, the intentional vagueness allows anyone who sees this film to comfort themselves that “their” particular Trek remains cohesive with the new film, and there is absolutely no reason to clarify that on the part of Paramount.
@569: “There were definite themes there — teamwork, trust, revenge, responsibility, er, go go boots…”
Yeah, but these are the themes of Monday Night Football, too (boots and miniskirts included). It’s fair to have wanted a little more.
@577, RD: Agree.
Bob Orci,
I wanted to congratulate you and Alex and everyone associated with the film for not only an excellent second weekend of 43 million dollars ,
But also the fact that this film is only 30 million dollars away from becoming the first Trek film to make 100million overseas!
WELL DONE ALL!
I think I made a pretty good point about Nero’s motivation being weak.
Wasn’t anyone else bothered by this?
The guy’s planet is destroyed, so he waits around 25 years to take his revenge on the guy that tried to save it??
I mean, if your going for a revenge premise, don’t you think that you should provide a better REASON for revenge than that?
Is Nero supposed to be like MONGO or something?? Just a big dullard ready to take his anger out on whomever was last seen near the scene of the tragedy, regardless of the circumstance?
I mean, the whole thing’s a bit like an interstellar Three’s Company plot….
#580 . To be honest, I think the solution to your question lies in a completely different question – what is the significance of the villain’s name? An allusion like that needs to be more than just that the name matches an ancient Roman Emperor… the character itself actually has to have something in common with him. Right?
As I see it, the Roman Nero was a bit of a nut-job. He was a crazy. I think your answer is that the Romulan Nero was also just that crazy. The fact is, ST’s Nero had no motivation… When his homeworld bought it, he made a sharp left and headed north of Nuts-ville.
… Either that, or the character is poorly developed… which we should really only go to as a last resort…
The first time I remember the “Time is not linear” concept in Trek was way back in DS9 (and not in this movie) when Sisko said as much speaking as one of those immortal beings that Kira and the Bajorians believed in. I forgot their name now. Wouldn’t that make it canon?
581. cagmar – May 17, 2009
—-As I see it, the Roman Nero was a bit of a nut-job. He was a crazy. I think your answer is that the Romulan Nero was also just that crazy. The fact is, ST’s Nero had no motivation… When his homeworld bought it, he made a sharp left and headed north of Nuts-ville.—-
It’s a fair point, and I suppose that could well be what the writers intended.
But, in that case, it just seems like a cop-out: “Let’s just make the villain crazy, and not bother with his motivation, because his behavior is not supposed to make sense anyway.”
It’s in the same bag o’ tricks as, “Let’s just go kitchen-sink with the story, and in the end, it will turn out to have all been a dream.”
Even crazy people have reasons for what they do. And, getting a look at those reasons is what makes for a compelling and intriguing theme and story. Hannibal Lecter was crazy, but his motivation was explored. His was a much better developed character. The same with the other Thomas Harris villains, for that matter—Jame Gumb….Francis Dolarhyde—all totally nutso, and all with intriguing motivations and rationales for their behaviors.
This is why I previously suggested something like a council meeting, perhaps, in which Spock’s plan to save Romulus won out over Nero’s. And, then, we learn how Nero perceived and interpreted Spock’s influence and actions. And, then, the Nero character is solid and much more interesting. Could’ve even gotten a very nice theme out of it. Instead, the Nero character character is little more than a functional mechanism for the story—bringing all of the characters together, and getting them their motivations—but, lacking in his own motivation.
I really don’t get how anyone thinks this movie doesn’t have intelligence and doesn’t have themes and messages. As Bob mentioned earlier there is the whole command and destiny and the choices made in life. Kirk and Spock’s story arcs are rife with lots of depth. Both young men come to a cross roads in their lives at the same time and learn a great deal about themselves. The movie also touches very well and movingly on the connections between Kirk and Spock and their parents and that in turn also provides a catalyst for the two men to understand each other.
The speeches by Spock Prime, Pike and Sarek are as well written and meaningful as anything in Trek history.
Bob, some quick questions I am curious about and a plea.
Vulcan with a blue sky. Choice or mistake?
No scanner for Spock on the bridge? You guys have got to fix that for the next movie unless I just missed it. :)
And please, lets get the big E out in space away from Earth in the next movie. Let’s follow that famous Kirk motto that ended this wonderful movie.
#577—”I am simply stuck with the fact that entire episodes and films of TOS, TNG, etc. must be thrown out because they do not conform to the new arbitrary view of time travel…”
I don’t think you are stuck with it. I believe it is a choice, particularly since nothing in the film promotes the MWI of QM. You can just as easily choose to view the time travel in this film as being no different from the way in which it is presented in “TCOTEOF”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, etc.
“I seriously doubt that any of the ambiguities regarding the exact origins of this timeline will ever be canonically reconciled on-screen…”
I understand your point of view, I think. The way I see it, you are looking for reasons to consider the tie-in to previous continuity to be ambiguous—since Spock “Prime” is quite obviously *intended* to be perceived as having come from the timeline we know as the original.
No one can tell you how to interpret things. You are free to overlook the fact that nothing in the film suggests than he is anyone other than the same Spock we have always known. If this allows you to see the film as you wish—a complete reboot—then I say ‘congratulations’.
Personally, I accept the intentions of the filmmakers in that I see Spock Prime as the same character from TOS, the original 6 films, and TNG’s “Unification, Parts I and II”. I am comfortable that the film’s story and dialogue supports this. After all, there has been nothing in previously established canon which suggests that any other Spock exists—outside of the “Mirror Spock”, whom I am thoroughly convinced is not “Spock Prime”.
What is truly “ambiguous” is the notion that time travel in this film is treated any differently than in previous Trek stories, since Orci’s off-screen MWI take on the subject is not canon.
While I accept the filmmakers intentions as to who the Spock Prime character is—-I dismiss the non-canon notion of the MWI of QM being applied to Star Trek time travel, particularly since the film itself offers this theory no support at all.
586. Closettrekker WROTE: “I don’t think you are stuck with it. … You can just as easily choose to view the time travel in this film as being no different from the way in which it is presented in “TCOTEOF”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, etc.”
Wrong choice of words. And, no I can’t. Because there is no way the Spock I know would allow 9 billion people and Vulcan to be destroyed in a linear time-line when he risked his friends lives to TRY to save Earth.
Closettrekker WROTE: “nothing in the film suggests than he is anyone other than the same Spock we have always known”
And I would simply argue that I was being kind. The fact that Spock does not behave as I have come to expect no matter how you recton it, “suggests” that he is not the same Spock. However, considering there is no evidence either way FOR ANYTHING I am debating, means there is no clearly defined intention suggested anywhere in the film. All we have is off-screen, non-canon explanations and stated intent … AND A LOT OF ON-SCREEN QUESTIONS!
Agreed about MWI/QM. It is NOT canon and likely never to appear again because of the implications for further time travel. Then again, if Abrams decides he’s written himself into a corner with his NEW canon, all one has to do is have the new crew accidentally time-travel into yet another alternate universe where that canon hasn’t happened yet (and the best part is that the old and original canon will still be a part of it). LOL
#587—”Because there is no way the Spock I know would allow (6) billion people and Vulcan to be destroyed in a linear time-line when he risked his friends lives to TRY to save Earth.”
There are plenty of reasons for Spock to logically deduce that changing the past is not a good option here, and neither is offering up the necessary knowledge for others to do so (slingshot effect calculations).
Not only would they have to be successful in saving Vulcan, but they would also have to be able to count on being able to recreate the same set of circumstances that allowed them to defeat the Narada before. And there would be no guarantee that they would be successful in either case.
They could actually end up making things much worse instead. At that point (where Nimoy’s Spock emparts the future knowledge to Scotty and to Kirk), the objective is to make sure Kirk assumes command of the Enterprise, and gets to Earth in time to save it. They were fortunate to stop Nero and defeat him permanently in the process.
It should go without saying that they wouldn’t risk not being able to do the same thing all over again.
And holding up their efforts further by trying to convince the younger Spock to buy into the slingshot effect (which, in the original timeline, was discovered by accident later on) could have so delayed them that the Narada would have been lying in wait for the Enterprise in the Sol system (having already destroyed Earth)…and of course a head-on encounter with the Narada would likely have been the end of the Enterprise.
Just because you have the knowledge to try—doesn’t mean it is a good idea, especially if you could end up making things worse in the process.
We have seen this theme dealt with previously in Trek (VOY “Year Of Hell”).
#583 You certainly have a point. Being crazy is ultimately enough of a motivation, but for us to relate or understand of feel the character, you’re right, there should be more than just craziness.
#588, points we have both made here and elsewhere. You can theorize any explanation you want for anything, but it doesn’t make it right (or wrong). In the end this is fiction and the writers can justify (or not) any story they chose to tell. It does not change what is MY opinion, or negate it in any way in the absence of canon, regardless of how “logical” the rationalization. Let’s face it there has never been anything truly logical about Trek plots.
The fact that TOS Spock has routinely made “illogical” decisions about just such matters in the past is all I need to know in this instance. In particular, I would argue given advanced preparedness of Nero’s actions and motivations, not to mention Nimoy/Spock’s familiarity with the weaknesses of Nero’s 24th Century technology put the odds for success in their favor (and original Spock is a stickler for quoting those odds in such circumstances). While a few people might die who did not before, “the needs of the many [(Vulcan)], outweigh the needs of the few or the one”, or perhaps this more experienced Spock has rethought that axiom as well? In my mind he has not.
And this is exactly why Abrams’ acknowledges his “reboot”will NOT please everybody. And why I further surmise that much of the onscreen canon has been left intentionally vague.
Just because this is a reboot, doesn’t mean the original timeline is not intact. This is just a timeline askew. Maybe Spock Prime knows this and that is why he is not trying to resurrect Vulcan. He may be happy to relive his early days on Enterprise and even happier to see all of his old friends alive and well again. When he gets bored of this he may just hop back over to his original corner of space and time. But then we are mixing Back to the Future with Sliders. (no Star Wars that I can see.)