EXCLUSIVE: Producer Ralph Winter on Star Trek V: We Almost Killed The Franchise | TrekMovie.com
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EXCLUSIVE: Producer Ralph Winter on Star Trek V: We Almost Killed The Franchise June 30, 2010

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Feature Films (TMP-NEM),Interview , trackback

Following the screening of Star Trek III over the weekend I had a short (and very frank) chat with Ralph Winter, who worked on five of the Star Trek films and he gave his assessment as to why Star Trek IV was so successful and why Star Trek V was a failure.  



Winter: on success of Star Trek II and IV and failure of Star Trek V – "we almost killed the franchise"

Ralph Winter was both a participant and witness to Trek history, as he rose through the ranks at Paramount during the original series era of Star Trek films in the 80s, eventually becoming producer for Star Trek VI in 1991. He has since gone on to have a successful career as a producer in Hollywood, including producing all four X-Men movies.

After the Star Trek III Q&A over the weekend (see previous story) I had a few extra minutes with Ralph Winter and asked him which of the five Trek films he worked on was his favorite, and this launched into an interesting contrast between Star Trek II & IV vs. Star Trek V.

Ralph Winter on success of Star Trek II and Star Trek IV:

Winter: Star Trek II was a favorite. Nick [Meyer] was fun to work with and I loved Time After Time, so it was my first movie to get really involved with, so it was a lot of fun. But on Star Trek IV we were firing on all cylinders. We got to go on location. The script was a little more light-hearted, Star Trek III was a really heavy story. I just think [director] Leonard [Nimoy] learned a lot, he was firing on all cylinders. We finished a little early. We saw the film a few days after we wrapped and we were all poking each other going "this is pretty good, this is going to work". We came in under budget. All the stars aligned for Star Trek IV.

Original crew in "Star Trek IV" – a film Winter sees as the most successful

Ralph Winter on failure of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier:

Winter: We had fun and felt good about IV, that wasn’t the case on V. I think on V we were smoking our own press releases. We made the mistake of searching for god. That is what the first movie did. What did we think we were going to find? What did we expect? We were focused and we wrote a good script. Larry Luckinbill (Sybok) was terrific. There were a lot of good things about it. I think we were, not delusional, but we almost killed the franchise.

And, unfortunately I almost killed the franchise in terms of the visual effects. We felt like we got taken advantage of by ILM and so we shopped to go to other places. We found a guy in New York, Bran Ferren, who had a pretty good approach to doing the effects, but ultimately they were horrible. And the combination of a story that was not working, it just wasn’t commercial, the effects were terrible – we almost killed the franchise, it almost died.

Nimoy, Luckinbill, Kelley and Shatner look at ‘god’ in "Star Trek V" – Winter thinks bad story and effects almost doomed franchise

William Shatner has stated that some of the problems with Star Trek V were due to Paramount not provided the film an appropriate budget. I asked Winter if he felt that the film was short-changed by the studio:

Winter: I don’t agree that Paramount short-changed the movie. They didn’t give [Shatner] as much money for the story that he wanted to tell, but remember Star Trek II was done for $12 Million, and III was done for just under $16 Million, and IV came in a million under budget at $21 Million – I have a letter at home from the president of the studio that shows that. And I think we did the fifth movie at around or just under $30 Million, so it was more. But what he wanted to do was a big grander thing. But I don’t think more money would have made the movie better.

‘Rock Man’ test for "Star Trek V" sequence cut for budget – Winter says more money wouldn’t have helped

Of course the franchise didn’t die. Winter and Star Trek came back in 1991 with the successful TOS era finale, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Following the poor financial and critical performance of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, in 1989 Paramount went into a debate on how to proceed with the franchise. Harve Bennett, producer of Star Trek II, III, IV and V decided the best route would be to do an academy film prequel, and he even co-wrote a "Star Trek: Starfleet Academy" script with Star Trek V scribe David Loughery. However, Paramount felt that they wanted to celebrate the 25th anniversary with just one more film with the original crew. Bennett dug in his heels and eventually left when Paramount wouldn’t go his way, which allowed Ralph Winter to rise to full producer on Star Trek VI. You can see Winter talk more about this, including how Bennett wanted Winter to join him in his protest walk-out, during our Star Trek III Q&A (click

Final moment of "Star Trek VI" – Winter returned to produce the original crew’s successful finale




So Ralph Winter has weighed in, what say you?

Rank Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

View Results

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1. Spectre7 - June 30, 2010

Bahaha ROFL

Such a noble display of humility, and self-awareness :D

Your distinctiveness will be added to our own….

2. Rocket Scientist - June 30, 2010

There are positive aspects to Trek V, but yeah. More money wouldn’t have improved the negatives. It was what it was. For good or ill, it has its place in Trek lore. I can still enjoy watching it every now and then.

3. jr - June 30, 2010

When I saw the poster for ST:V — a Movie Theater Seat with a Seat-Belt — I came to understand that was to keep the audience from walking out on the film.

4. Tom - June 30, 2010

How did ILM take advantage of them? Do tell. I like Trek V. Is it perfect? God, no (no pun intended), it could have used another rewrite. It could also have used a studio that got behind the movie better than it did. TOS movies always got the shaft, and it got worse after TNG came out. Ironically, they got TNG in and they did the same damned thing to them. Up until recently, I began to wonder if Paramount didn’t deserve Trek

5. Premature V Musings - June 30, 2010

I thought I would wait for the V showing to post this but ….

I’ve said this when the movie came out and Shatner had been complaining about the budget and that is if he truly believed in this project, he would have used his own salary to finish the film. Its been almost 20 years since V came out but I do recall that the salary he and Nimoy earned was over a 1/3 of the budget. Why? They earned it from the success of IV and Nimoy supposedly has a favored nations clause in his contract that states whatever Shatner gets paid, he gets the same. Factor in the $250K or so for the rest a piece, plus $3M or so that Kelley demanded and you have already 1/2 the budget spent before you even had a frame of film.

When the V screening comes out, I hope someone points this out but I don’t know Koenig would be in the know about such things dealing with salary, then again, he might.

I’ve got more to say but will wait for the V posting…to be continued…

6. Why ILM Was Not Used in V - June 30, 2010

4. ILM was not hired, from what I recall, because their top tier people were working on other films and their price was the same for people who were less ….whats the word…capable? experienced? desirable?

7. cugel the clever - June 30, 2010

Trek V was an appallingly bad film in every possible way. Thank God that Trek VI was one of the best in the franchise. If VI had tanked, we may never have seen any more, or any series after TNG.

8. mikeypikey (Ireland) - June 30, 2010

Why did they feel like they were being taken advantage of by ILM??? Tell me more!!………

9. Bucky - June 30, 2010

This may sound like blasphemy, but I think Star Trek V is actually one that’s closest in tone to TOS. I’m not talking classics like City or Balance of Terror, but I’m talking about the really goofy, high-minded-ideas contrasted with cheeseball style like Spock’s Brain or The Apple. I also get a kick out of the movie, because it has Shatner’s goofy-heart in the script, something that never quite came across on the show. It doesn’t quite work, but it’s fun to watch. I mean “What does GOD need with a Starship?!” I just gold. Hell, I like it better than Insurrection.

10. David P - June 30, 2010

the ILM stuff is interesting

11. bill hiro - June 30, 2010

Love Ralph. A great guy, a professional, and a straight shooter. I think he’s a little contradictory though regarding his comments about the budget on Trek V. If the studio had given Shatner another 5 or 10 million, he probably would have just burned through it and the movie would have essentially been more or less the same. However, if the studio had thrown more money specifically at the visual effects budget and thus avoided the employment of the heinous Bran Ferren & Associates, the film would be remembered today as an average and modestly entertaining entry in the series instead of having the rep as worst Trek ever (and even then, its still more watchable than Insurrection).

12. Tom - June 30, 2010

Well, aside from money, there was also time. V was rushed. They had problems, they wanted more time, they didn’t get it. They tried to piece together a less rotten ending, and it didn’t work. I love the scenes in Trek V when Shatner is trying to get through his dialogue at a faster than usual rate. You can tell he’s trying to make up time. Check the brig scene, and I am sure there are others

13. bill hiro - June 30, 2010

As I recall, ILM offered Shatner their third stringers, as the first and second strings were working on Batman and Ghostbusters 2. Or at least I think it was Batman. I know the other one was Ghostbusters 2. So they opted for Bran Ferren, who in fact turned out to be worse than ILM’s C team. Far, far worse.

14. Tom - June 30, 2010

It was Indiana Jones and Ghostbusters 2.

15. bill hiro - June 30, 2010

Thank you, Tom. That’s exactly right.

16. mikeypikey (Ireland) - June 30, 2010

Bran Ferren should be ashamed of himself, lol , that beautiful enterprise paint job – gone, look’s like he opted for wite-out, and had he ever heard of motion control..

17. Tom - June 30, 2010

My 2 1/2 year old son loves Trek V, still not sure why. He loves seeing Kirk on the mountain at the beginning. Still, when watching the movie, I always blurt out, ummm, shouldn’t the Enterprise be moving? Even a more than a little bit?

18. Ran - June 30, 2010

Star Trek V has great Kirk/Spock/McCoy moments. Although the plot was a bit thin, the script it self was very close to TOS in spirit. The Bonfire scenes are classic, the brig scene is charming and the Kirk “I need my fears” scene is an excellent. Regardless of the obvious flaws (pace, plot, dull ending) the movie still has its moments. For me, it is a much better movie than JJ’s film.

19. rm10019 - June 30, 2010

I was in a Paramount office during this time, when one day the LA Times printed a quote from Leonard saying he could make Trek VI for 30 Million. I told the person I was with, and he immediately picked up the phone and called Ralph Winter, telling him what I had just mentioned. It was VERY exciting to be a part of that in the moment, and I thank Ralph and the entire crew for making VI happen.

20. Tom - June 30, 2010

Wow, and thank YOu for helping make Trek VI happen. Good movie.

21. S. John Ross - June 30, 2010

Re the “almost killing:” I hope (assume) he means the film portion of the franchise?

22. Tom - June 30, 2010

I’m sure he was. Amazing to think they panicked the way they did. All 4 prior Trek movies made money–a lot of money. Yes, even Trek 1. When they finally fall below par, and they knew damned well why, they didn’t want to make anymore. C’mon, all they had to do was get the right people in the right jobs and it would have worked for a few more than they ultimately did.

23. Star Trek 12 : Klingon Rising - June 30, 2010

I hate the whole Spocks brother angle. What a poor story.

24. Mike thompson Uk - June 30, 2010

Star Trek 5 had some wonderful moments but thank god they made Star Trek 6, a special film for me.

25. Thomas - June 30, 2010

For my money, it is not so much a terrible movie as just a movie that aimed high but missed the mark. I could forgive the weak special effects; it’s not really an effects-driven movie. I do agree with Ran that the Kirk/Spock/McCoy moments were great (even with the groaner of a “marsh melon” joke), and which were more present here than in any of the other TOS movies. Also, Laurence Luckenbill is great as Sybok, debatably better than the rest of the movie. In a movie where so many of the performances seemed phoned-in, he brought the charisma needed to make you believe that people would follow him anywhere.

26. Author f The Vulcan Neck Pinch for Fathers - June 30, 2010

I think Winter is toeing a very professional line in not throwing Shatner under the bus for Trek V. He casts a line in that direction regarding the budget issues, but we all know the movie was destined to stink either way.

Trek V was loathsome in every respect.

27. Scooter - June 30, 2010

So is ST ’09 the “Academy” film Bennett wanted to do?

28. jas_montreal - June 30, 2010

@ 27..

Probably… The supreme court has been known to copy a lot of old idea’s.

JJ ABRAMS: Alias copies mission impossible

Bob Orci : Fringe copies X-Files

29. jas_montreal - June 30, 2010

oh…. and

Damon Lindelof : LOST copies Twin Peaks

30. Thorny - June 30, 2010

I remember liking Trek V when it came out, at least somewhat, as I was not the biggest fan of the goofy, comedic Star Trek IV. But over time, my feelings for both movies have moved in opposite directions. Now I like Trek IV more and more and can hardly stand to watch Trek V.

I do agree Trek V has the big three relationship that is closest to TOS, unfortunately that comes in a story and production values almost as bad as anything from the Fred Freiberger era of TOS.

So the Mr. Shatner lost out to Ghostbusters II for ILM’s elite team? Oh well, in a contest between the two movies, I’d have to say Ghostbusters II is actually the worse movie, so Mr. Shatner can have that little bit of vindication.

31. njdss4 - June 30, 2010

Star Trek V was awful, and it is nice to see the producer come straight out and admit fault. Redemption was only one movie away, as Star Trek VI is damn near the tops of my list of favorite movies ever.

32. paustin - June 30, 2010

9 naa not blasphemy….STV captured the trios’ relationship the best and that the naysayers can never take away from it.

33. Gabriel Bell - June 30, 2010

I love how people criticize JJ’s Trek (and the characterization’s of Kirk and Spock therein), but defend the drivel of Star Trek V, which is clearly the worst two hours of Trek ever produced (out of 700-plus).

Spock runs into his half brother and suddenly is more loyal to him than Kirk and the Enterprise crew? Absolute crap.

So glad to hear Winter say that more money would have not made it a good film. I find it hilarious to see people acting like the addition of rock monsters would have somehow made it a good movie. Funny stuff.

34. Thorny - June 30, 2010

27… “Academy Years” actually sounds a little more plausible than ST 2009… at least Mr. Bennett didn’t make Kirk a Captain a few days after graduating from the Academy. That movie would have ended with Kirk and Spock going their separate ways in their own careers, with only the audience knowing they’d meet again on the Enterprise. That’s really how ST 2009 should have ended, too.

Cadet to Captain in a week or so? Ugh.

35. boborci - June 30, 2010

28. jas_montreal – June 30, 2010

except for the aliens part.

36. boborci - June 30, 2010

29. jas_montreal – June 30, 2010

Except Lost was a HIT.

37. Tom - June 30, 2010

What are your feelings on Trek V, Bob?

38. davidfuchs - June 30, 2010


J.J.’s Trek is pure entertainment. At the heart of Star Trek V, at least, is the attempt at something more.

Also on salaries, #5: You really think Kelley made $3 million? The *only* movie he was paid $1 million was Star Trek VI; every time before that he made less, and he was always paid less than Shatner and Nimoy even during the tv series. The man was a gentleman who didn’t gripe.

39. Truthseeker - June 30, 2010

The problem with Star Trek V is that Shatner and Nimoy wanted the SAME PAY and they BOTH wanted too much money! So, even though Shatner directed and got more pay — Nimoy got the same, contractually. Then, the others wanted more money too!

THAT’S why they couldn’t AFFORD ILM on Star Trek V. ILM did test shots from what I understand — so, from accounts I have read that got swept under the rug it was a matter of dollars and cents.

The whole thing — with regard to budget — collapsed under it’s own weight and greed and avarice!

If Shat and Nimoy had taken a pay cut or just stayed at Star Trek IV’s pay rate, maybe they would’ve had the money for Shatner’s big ending and better effects overall.

If anyone doubts me, why do you think Harve Bennett wanted to do Starfleet Academy?

Because of the greed of the original cast! Starfleet Academy was both a negotiating tool and a method of continuing the film series without the original cast.

What’s unclear from the accounts I have read is SA managed to knock some sense into the cast and realize that they were going to be replaced if they didn’t lose just a little of the ego.

Shatner even alludes to the cast wanting to get paid more with each film on the commentary for Star Trek V — referring to how their “self worth” increased with each film. “Self worth” = greed. LMAO!!!

From all accounts I’ve read over the years, Ralph Winter’s explanation why they went with Bran Ferren for the effects on Star Trek V is rubbish…and just sweeping the true reasons under the rug.

I love the original cast as much as anyone, but they are real people with real foibles…and greed is one of those.

Unfortunately, that’s what killed Star Trek V — from all the things I have read over the years!

So…there ya go…

40. Tom - June 30, 2010

Ironic, with Trek IV, they were on top of the world, and then with just one disappointing movie, Paramount wants to pull the plug altogether. Never did like that.

41. Lord Garth, Formerly of Izar - June 30, 2010

Still better than Nemesis, Insurrection and argueably better than Generations

Not saying much though

The De Kelly scene with his father was one of the more poingant acts of the movie franchise

42. Anthony Thompson - June 30, 2010

The 25% of folks who are rating V at 7 or higher: What are YOU guys smoking??? LOL!

43. Tom - June 30, 2010

The cue A Busy Man has to be the best cue in all of Trek. Totally encompasses everything Trek is all about. I also love the scene in the observation room lounge. I love the opening with J’Onn and Sybok in the desert. Great opening. Lots of good bits throughout.

44. Ran - June 30, 2010

@ 43

Goldsmith’s score is excellent. Long overdue for an expended release.

45. Tom - June 30, 2010

I’ve got my fingers crossed it’s going to be the Star Trek CD we get next summer, a la Trek 2 and 3.

46. Erik Parrent - June 30, 2010

I can’t help it. I still love ST5.

47. Truthseeker - June 30, 2010

#16 —

It was ILM that ruined the “beautiful paint job” on the Enterprise model when they did the FX for Star Trek II. I recall Ken Ralston (?) saying in Cinefex Magazine that they put dullcote on the paint job that Magicam created when they built the miniature for Star Trek: The Motion Picture because ILM used a bluescreen and Doug Trumbull shot the model against a BLACK screen.

Trumbull shot against black to avoid spill light and reflections on the model created by the pearlescent finish of the original paint job. He specifically did NOT want to shoot the miniature against a BLUE screen! He wanted to preserve the finish of the model. Doug Trumbull loved the craftsmanship and beauty of the ST:TMP Enterprise!

Rather than retool their system at ILM and shoot the model against black, they retooled the MODEL instead by dulling down the finish and shooting against blue screen to pull mattes off the model.

The result is…well, as good as the FX in Wrath of Khan are…you can tell they paint job of ST:TMP is GONE! It looks gray and flat. And I just told you why.

We can all agree the FX of ST:V are terrible and blame Ferren for that, but we can’t blame him for what was done to the Enterprise miniature.

That’s all ILM.

48. kmart - June 30, 2010

All the crap about only ILM’s third-tier team being available for TFF is meaningless … trek usually only ever got the second or third tier group. Dennis Muren and Richard Edlund never worked on Trek, that is why Ralston did so many of them.

ILM really DID screw them over on the money end to some degree, and even getting coproducer credit (for tax purposes) on IV.

TMP, TWOK and TFF are the only trek films I really like (in spite of their problems), while the others are movies I wanted to like (in spite of their problems) and just couldn’t. TMP is a huge misfire with some great moments, TWOK is actually a good movie that is a little too cheap, and TFF, despite some absurdities, definitely has its heart in the right place, and really always feels to me like a widescreen TOS episode.

49. AdmNaismith - June 30, 2010

It’s funny, Gerry Anderson did things with puppets and models all on wires that look as good today as they did in the 60s and 70s, but Bran Ferren at the end of the 80s was trying to split the difference between live models and opticals in a way that makes no sense.
(He knew about motion control, but was purposely not using it for time and money).
I know the producers talked with him before offering him the job, but did anyone look at any of his footage? That was a big risk to take on blind faith. (and FX that suffer similar scaling issues that plague JJ Trek)

ST V has some of the best character and relationship moments in the whole of TOS, but it’s wrapped in an unevenly executed story that doesn’t all come together.

50. kmart - June 30, 2010

47, I think they are talking about the re-repainting … the model was loaned out to Universal Studios’ trek ride show and got messed up, so Ferren had to have people repaint it again. And I believe ILM re-re-repainted it for TUC when they redid all the wiring (some of which got cut while TFF got made.) There are just a couple points on the underside of engineering that are still Trumbull original paint (done by Paul Olsen olsenart.com or olsenarts.com I believe, actually), I think.

51. kmart - June 30, 2010

49, I don’t think you have your facts straight. MoCon was used for nearly all of TFF’s modelwork, except for lockoff shots and the shuttle crash. I don’t like to plug a mag I left under adversarial conditions, but just check the TFF CINEFEX issue to get some decent info on the circumstances and approaches. Or the American Cinematographer.

52. Truthseeker - June 30, 2010

Even so, ILM’s third tier team would still be head and shoulders over Bran Ferren’s group — whose prior claim to fame had been the Little Shop of Horrors remake…not exactly the portfolio that ILM had! LOL!!!

I think that “ILM screwed us over” story is BUNK! I’ve done a LOT of reading about Star Trek V, but unless I’ve just forgotten reading it (unlikely) over the years — I’ve never seen that claim until I read this story hear at TrekMovie.


Now, the greed and avarice story…? That, I have read from multiple sources — although not mainstream ones and obviously the details were hush-hushed by someone somewhere along the line.

I truly believe it was a case of the cast getting paid so much that everything else became secondary and…on the cheap!

53. Crusade2267 - June 30, 2010

In defense of Star Trek V, it has some great charicter moments, and it is certainly not as unwatchable as TMP. But it doesn’t compare to 2, 3, 4, or 6.

54. Doug Skywalker - June 30, 2010

say, if Star Trek V were ever to be released again on Blu-Ray, does anyone think they should go about re-tooling the effects, ala Star Wars? i mean, if George Lucas can do it…(though those were mixed results unto themselves, but i digress)

55. boborci - June 30, 2010

37. Tom – June 30, 2010

Saw it in the theater. Enjoyed it at the time. Have not seen it since.

56. Truthseeker - June 30, 2010

#54 —

I am ALL FOR a Director’s Cut of Star Trek V, but unlike ST:TMP — I would replace ALL the shots! Every one of them could be reshot and staged better than they are.

When it comes to Star Trek V, nothing is sacred…at least not to me!

But…I doubt Paramount will do it — because, truthfully, you can polish the turd but in the end it’s still a turd.

It would just be a better LOOKING turd.

57. jas_montreal - June 30, 2010

@ boborci

Well… Yes and no.

Lost started out strong and crashed towards the end with horrible/bad ratings.

Twin Peaks started out very strong and crashed towards the end with horrible bad ratings.

Whats the difference between these shows ?

Twin Peaks was trying to be ORIGINAL. Lost was NOT original. I understand the idea of post-modernism in art forms nowadays, but i don’t believe in going nuts/crazy/overload with using some old stuff as a reference. Therefor the overuse of Twin Peaks material was of a cheap move by the writers of Lost.

Last, Twin Peaks will always be considered a better TV show then Lost, for the most part.

58. kmart - June 30, 2010


ILM and Paramount had serious money issues on TVH, which is why ILM tried to do more in-camera stuff (mostly the klingon water crash, though the fly-under-bridge live was redone with a matte-line ridden mocon shot) … ILM gets an insanely huge chunk of budgets, more now than it was in the past (what, on this abrams thing they got about half the budget, didn’t they? on the first MUMMY, they got 20 out of 60 mil.) Even in the old days, they spent a lot more on TWOK’s vfx than Trumbull had bid out for the same film … story is that Paramount wanted to lock ILM in for future Indy movies, so throwing them a trek bone was a way of doing that, though the line producer on TWOK disputed that assertion.

59. Mr. "There are always possibilities" - June 30, 2010

ST:V was terrible. I can’t watch it without cringing the whole way through.

However, a good friend of mine did give me a little perspective. In his opinion, it is the most ike a ST:TOS episode. Why? Because the crew actually just goes on an assignment/mission. There’s no stealing the Enterprise, no disobeying orders, they get an assignment and they do it.

Strangely, it does contain my favorite Star Trek movie scene of all time, which is when Kirk, Spock & McCoy are in the observation room/deck which resembles a square rig sailing ship, complete with wheel and lantern. On the wheel there is a plaque that says “to boldy go where no man has gone before…” You see some interesting backstory on the big three, including how Spock was initially rejected by his father and how McCoy performed an assisted suicide on his Dad. Later, Sybok comes into the room and tells them they’ve arrived at Sha-ka-ree, and the big three have to make a decision as to what to do. Kirk looks at the plaque, and you hear the music (hum along now) Dum, da dum…

60. Truthseeker - June 30, 2010

Makes sense Kmart!

You used to write for Cinefex?

61. Driver - June 30, 2010

As films, I would not give any of the Trek films lower than 8 out of 10. Thus, Trek V would get an 8.7. I would rather watch V than IV any time as I prefer Trek films to take place entirely in space and away from Earth. My fav-II followed closely by III.

62. boborci - June 30, 2010

57. jas_montreal – June 30, 2010

One and a half seasons vs 6 is the difference.

63. boborci - June 30, 2010


And I missed the part in twin peaks where all the characters are stranded on an island.

64. boborci - June 30, 2010


and I missed the part in Lost where the whole thing is kicked off by a murder being investigated by the FBI.

65. boborci - June 30, 2010

57. other than that, you’re right. They’re identical.

66. Gabriel Bell - June 30, 2010

57. LOST was not original? Wow. I guess anyone using letters to form words and words to form sentences is not being original in your book.

The way LOST intertwined stories and linked seemingly random events from character to character and show to show and season to season was one of the most original conceits ever attempted on television. It was an amazing success and rewarded the viewers who paid attention. I can think of no higher compliment.

And just so you know how much I also love Twin Peaks, I will close with: “Diane, I am holding in my hand a box of small chocolate bunnies.”

67. Gabriel Bell - June 30, 2010

62-65. Don’t forget about that time Bob crawled out from behind a palm tree and tried to dance with Sawyer.

68. Robert H. - June 30, 2010

An alternative title would have been Star Trek 5: The Revenge of the Fallen.

A case of the feel was right, but the execution was wrong.

69. psychojediboy - June 30, 2010


Don’t listen to this idiot. Lost was FAR better than Twin Peaks. He’s just taking an opportunity to bash something that’s very successful to one of its creators. You have NOTHING to defend to someone like that.

It’s ridiculous anyway – as if Twin Peaks invented the idea of twisting storylines in a world that’s a few degrees off of the one we live in.

70. Stan Winstone - June 30, 2010

Clarify the poll scale please- is 1 good or is 10 good?

71. Stan Winstone - June 30, 2010

Or just make it obvious- LIKE, LOVE HATE….

72. bill hiro - June 30, 2010

David Lynch > J.J. Abrams + Bob Orci + Damon Lindelof

There is no comparison.

73. boborci - June 30, 2010

69. psychojediboy – June 30, 2010

Thanks, but I had nothing to do with LOST!

74. demode - June 30, 2010

They really need to do a special edition of Trek 5 with new effects. I mean, c’mon! Shooting effects is not as expensive as it use to be, and they would make their money back and more.

75. kmart - June 30, 2010


Yeah, I freelanced for them 1990-1998, then was on staff till the end of 2000 (can’t in all honesty recommend being the only non-family member of a family business.)

I freelance for HD Video Pro and International Cinematographers Guild now. Haven’t done much on Trek in awhile, though I helped a guy named Ross Plesset with a TMP/P2 retrospective that ran in FILMFAX a few years back. Ross got a great memo from Jon Povill (which didn’t get run in the published piece, sadly) where he was tactfully trying to talk Katzenberg out of a looney notion that the crew should convince vger to search for ‘our’ judeo-christian God. The stuff they had to deal with on TMP!!

76. kmart - June 30, 2010


on that basis, FACE THE NATION is the greatest series ever, right?

C’mon, TP was seriously inventive. You don’t find a synergy like the Frost/Lynch combo too often, and when one of those wasn’t present (like much of 2nd season TP), you could tell. But I’ll exclude myself from LOST/TP debate, because even though I’ve seen TP in its entirety 10-12 times, I haven’t gotten through a LOST ep yet.

Too busy rewatching THE WIRE and CARNIVALE and SPORTS NIGHT and, of course, the mandatory twice-yearly ACTION JACKSON viewing.

77. Vultan - June 30, 2010

Guys, let’s just call off the whole Lost/Twin Peaks debate. After all, aren’t they and a whole slew of other sci-fi/paranormal shows (Kolchak, X-Files, Fringe, etc.) just trying to recapture the magic that was The Twilight Zone?

Rod Serling will always be the true original. Nuff said.

78. boborci - June 30, 2010

77. Vultan – June 30, 2010


79. Vultan - June 30, 2010


TZ fan, Bob? If so, what’s your fav episode?

80. boborci - June 30, 2010

the one with the SHAT!!!!

81. Vultan - June 30, 2010


Actually there were two, but both were good.

82. Tom - June 30, 2010

Maybe the Shat can play a creature lurking out on the edge of the Enterprise’s view screen that only Kirk can see from the captain’s chair;)

83. Vultan - June 30, 2010

“There’s something on the nacelle!!!”

84. Tom - June 30, 2010

LOL, my thoughts exactly!

85. Vultan - June 30, 2010

Is SyFy having a TZ marathon on July 4th again?

86. Rah - June 30, 2010

I know that some of you work in this industry, but man, it is only a movie folks,
Star Trek V has its good elements, for instance:
The Kirk/McCoy/Spock is well done, though in the original script McCoy and Spock were successfully seduced by Sybock, thank the integrity of actors who knew their characters, and fought Bill on this, Shatner himself tells us this in his books.

Anyway, it has it’s elements, but is disrespectful to the secondary, characters, especially Scotty, and the whole head bump scene.

And then their are those who rail against Star Trek 09, and say that it isn’t “deep” enough, but fail to see that it is about (from my assessment, with apologies to BobOrci) the internal battles of these three lead characters, about how trust and friendship can make you more than the sum of your parts. Deep stuff. Maybe a bit coming of age, but it is Star Trek for a new age.

oh well
To each their own.

87. Vultan - June 30, 2010

I looked it up. Nope. No TZ on the Fourth! I knew SyFy sucks, but I didn’t know it had gotten this bad. Jeez!

88. Red Dead Ryan - June 30, 2010

“Star Trek V: The Final Frontier”, while not a great movie by any stretch, is somewhat better than many give it credit for. It had a story(though rehashed somewhat from TMP), heart, and great character moments between Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Sybok was an interesting character as well. Where the movie comes apart though, are the Nimbus III scenes (Uhura’s naked plant dance, the three-breasted cat-lady) and the part where KIrk and company encounter the God-head. The visual effects were pretty craptacular as well. The flirting between Scotty and Uhura was cringeworthy and uncalled for. Klaa and Vixis were not necessary.

What saved the film for me were the classic moments between Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

Kirk: “All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.”

McCoy: “Melville.”

Spock: “John Masefield.”

McCoy: “Are you sure?”

Spock: “I am well versed in the classics, doctor.”

McCoy: “Then how come you don’t know ‘Row Row Row Your Boat’?”

89. Yammer - June 30, 2010

Love the Ralph Winter interview. He’s right, this just about killed Trek. or at least froze it in place.

The effects were irrelevant. It was just a badly plotted show.

– You’re not going to find God.
– Everyone hates it when a previously unknown brother pops up (here’s looking at you, Nemesis).
– Everyone hates it when the star/producer is mountain climbing when the main story does not require it; it is just an opportunity for male vanity, to demonstrate one’s machismo (here’s looking at you, Mission Impossible: Part Deux.
– Bad makeups
– Romulan Bird of Prey not a credible threat to Enterprise; it is a small frigate vs. a ship of the line
– “I need my pain” – with no resolution or payoff, just Kirk being the One Lone Individual With Integrity (see: everyone hates it when star/producer demonstrates his machismo)
– Cast becoming laughably old and fat (hardly their fault, but distracting, limiting — underlining the horrific mistake that Harve Bennett had done by killing off David Marcus and stranding Saavik on Vulcan — those two were the real Next Generation)
– Enterprise once again on shakedown cruise, things not working right — artificial jeopardy
– Sybok’s ability to reveal one’s inner Thetan, or whatever, is totally unrelated to the main plot. Why does he need to see God? Is it curiousity? What is his inner pain? Why is the healer wounded? Does his ability affect the outcome of the story? (answer to last question: no, obviously Shatner just thought it would be cool)

It’s basically sucktastic fanfic, DOA and rightly so.

90. Red Dead Ryan - June 30, 2010


Bob Orci

“Thanks, but I had nothing to do with LOST!”

But I see you have your name in the credits. What happened, you won a bet with J.J and he put your name in the credits as your prize?

91. Jim Nightshade - June 30, 2010

yah the other tz epidode with shat was the nodding devils head horoscope machine in the restaurant he got addicted to-tht was a great tz–well written–twin peaks has me thinkin cherry pie n coffee-what really irritated me was lynch got money for a movie n instead of tying up the cliffhanger he made a prequel–did lost have any backwards talking dancing lil people in it?
rock monster in 5-he coulda beat galaxyquest to the punch hah-stv didnt totally suck–the rock climbing rocket boots sequences were fun n the camping scenes too-the opening desert was shat rippin off or paying homage to lawrence of arabia(if u havent seen that film its epic)–Douglas Trumball was a efx genius–his two directed films great-brainstorm is one of my faves-pity he never directed again-re x-men movies-wish i coulda asked him why did x3 kill off all the characters–that alone ruined the movie and the depicting of the deaths were also badly done-the first 2 xmovies were awesome the last two-not so much–

92. Boborci - June 30, 2010


You thinking of Fringe? My name has never been on Lost.

93. Joshua - June 30, 2010

Bob are you going to split the main characters up in Trek 12 ala Empire strikes back with an A and B story?
They sort of did it in Trek VI. I think since Trek 11 was clearly modeled after A New Hope, go ahead and model 12 on Empire and 13 on Return of the Jedi. It will make a nice little cohesive trilogy of films, put some jeopardy and a cliffhanger in 12, and resolution in 13.

94. Steamblade - June 30, 2010

You have quite a generous view of the word “entertainment.”

Its refreshing to see the shine wearing off of the last movie and people seeing for what it was; a poorly written and executed film. I’d watch TFF, or even the Motion-less Picture, over the Abrams one again simply because it feels like Trek and the new does not.

95. Joshua - June 30, 2010

I have to wholeheartedly disagree. As a lifelong TOS fan, no other film has actually come close to capturing the “fun” and fly at the hip storytelling of TOS as the recent film did. These characters had camaraderie and didnt take themselves too seriously. They were heroic, positive, embraced danger and confronted the human condition. Gene would have loved it. Trek fans like to skew the original intent and flavor of the show into something it isnt, sort of like religion.

96. Joshua - June 30, 2010

As a matter of fact, my only real qualms with the film were purely topical and superficial. Production design. I would have liked a film, and an Enterprise that reminded us slightly more of the original but, I can forgive this easily as intended- an alternate reality where technology was advanced because of Neros unexpected arrival and interference.

97. joey a. - June 30, 2010

I saw Trek V in a packed house, and I have to say it actually went over pretty well. “Excuse me, what does God need with a starship?” was a big crowd-pleaser and you could hear a pin drop during McCoy’s confession. It skates by on the charm of the 3 main guys.

98. Iowagirl - June 30, 2010


99. Captain Conrad - June 30, 2010

Anthony, was 10 the worst? You may have to do another poll.

That movie could have been it. Thank God it was not.

100. Harry Ballz - June 30, 2010

Post # 100? The Final Frontier stunk on ice!!

101. Adam C - June 30, 2010

I really don’t understand it, I love ST: V more so then ST: 2009. Its really from performances from the actors like Kelley and Doohan RIP.

Can’t express my respect enough for that film.

102. StarFuryG7 - June 30, 2010

Has anyone seen the Jack Marshall re-edit of “Star Trek V”?

He did a very good job, although it can only be viewed in Letterbox Format unfortunately, because it wasn’t yet available in Widescreen when decided to do his re-edit of the movie.

He formatted it like an episode of the original series, only as though it had come back for television as a second series –really quaint and cool the way he did it.

103. Terence T - July 1, 2010

I recall somewhat enjoying the Star Trek V book before I got to see the movie. Unfortunately, the story was a poor choice to adapt to film. It was just impossible to create visual effects as jawdropping as what the characters were looking at.

104. Penhall - July 1, 2010

Trek V was a good movie, and I get so tired of everyone constantly bashing it.

105. RetroWarbird - July 1, 2010

I tend to rate Trek V a little higher than even my memory and my comparisons to its far better compatriots would skew it in my mind. There’s a lot I like. I love the concept of Sybok, of Spock having an older brother who is a radical … and since he’s an illogical Vulcan, is damn near a Romulan (That angle should’ve been played with, in fact).

I liked the bit where Sulu had to do some quick shuttle work. I think that hard landing into the shuttle bay was the most “shuttle action” we’ve ever gotten outside of Galileo Seven.

And I liked the seeds of Kirk’s utter generalized disdain for Klingons being hinted at. That he’s starting to fall into patterns that if something big doesn’t happen, could eventually lead to racism (luckily Undiscovered Country comes along).

And actually, I like the camping scenes as well.

106. DJT - July 1, 2010

If certain cringe inducing scenes were edited or downright excised, I would welcome additional FX work in an effort to repair STV. Perhaps stuff that was left out could be re-inserted and blended better with what we’ve seen.

107. philpot - July 1, 2010

posted before but here it is again for those who aint read it:

Star Trek V – A Shatnerian Masterpiece…

If you look at TFF as a strange dream of Kirks…from the first campsite scene post mountain fall to right at the end of the film with the ‘Row Row Row your boat’ reprise..then its possible that Trek V is actually a masterpiece of modern day cinema


– The events of the movie are a reflection of Kirk’s fears: being put back into action while he’s unprepared, geting screwed by Starfleet, losing his crew and losing, above all, his friends.

– Events from the camping trip are mirrored in the dream: climbing El Capitan/climbing the mountain at the end…the fall from El Capitan/the fall from the turbo shaft…musing around the campfire/musing around the steering wheel.

– The broken and unreliable Enterprise is another fear of Kirk; that no ship can live up to the original.

– The movie follows dream logic: characters appear when needed (Spock in the turboshaft, Scotty in the brig, Spock in the BoP) and reality warps to accomodate the “story” (70+ decks, the mysterious wheel room, unicorns, sybok, god).

– Kirk ate gods for breakfast, so it’s no surprise they show up in his dreams. The fight against “god” is Kirk’s subconscious idea of a generic adventure. Likewise, a Klingon is his idea of a generic villain.

– In the end, Spocks saves his ass, just like he saved Spock’s.

– The romantic relationship between Scotty and Uhura.

– A 30 year plus impossible journey to the centre of the galaxy that happens in a few hours.

– Spock having a brother which was never mentioned before.

– the song “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” ends with the line “life is but a dream.”

– when going through the great barrier and the 3 are in the mysterious wheel room Bones asks ‘are we dreaming?’ and Kirk goes ‘if we are..then life is a dream’…

– Being chased by ‘Rock men’ would also have had a very nightmare like quality to it (although those scenes were dropped)

– Kirk, Spock and Bones remain together for much of the movie..just like at the campsite..

– And of course the story starting and ending in the same spot, with the Kirk, Spock and McCoy wearing the same clothes.

When you look at the movie as a nightmare, a reflection of Kirk’s subconscious fears and desires, it actually, somehow, makes *more* sense. In fact, it starts making a *lot* of sense

108. Crispy - July 1, 2010

Trek V is still a million times better than the dreck known as the Slow Motion picture, what a God awful film that was.

109. philpot - July 1, 2010

I wonder if they could’ve done something like “Reign in Hell” for Star Trek V? a Khan prequel showing his time on Ceti Alpha V from Space Seed to finding Chekov/Terrel – with a post TVH prologue/end of Kirk, Spock and Bones visiting the planet instead of camping at Yosemite (I read on the TWOK wikipdia that after the success of TWOK there was a script written for the Ceti Alpha Khan story but it never happened…its a shame as they couldve done it back to back with Star Trek III or IV). It would have only been 7 years after TWOK and Richardo could’ve pulled it off – I know hed have been playing a younger Khan in the 15 year period but they could’ve had him in dark wig etc – suspension of disbelief and all that (they had Hopkins play Lector in Red Dragon)…maybe even had a flashback to the Eugenic Wars (with a younger actor as Khan)…. maybe Nicolas Meyer wouldve wanted to direct it. Ok so Kirk, Spock Bones etc would really only have extended cameos but Khan was in the 80s (and pretty much still is) second only to Vader in terms of popular Sci Fi villians…I dont think fans and moviegoers wouldve had a problem with going to see a trek film mainly about Khan..

Ok maybe thatd have been too left field for a trek movie but im sure they couldve come up with something better than TFF with the original cast for Trek V in 89…especially since it was such a competitive year (Batman, Indy 3, GB 2, BTTF 2, LW 2 etc)..but what?

The Genesis trilogy had been completed so it had to be an all new adventure..

maybe something with the Romulans? as the Klingons had already been done in Trek III..(and were supposed to be Romulans anyway) and the unknown threat to earth deal had been done in I and IV

maybe a big budget version of Balance of Terror?…not exactly the same but taking elements of it like TMP did with Changeling/Doomsday Machine and TVH did with Tomorrow is Yesterday/Assignment Earth or TFF did with Way to Eden

Could of still had Shatner directing (theyd have been no way around it as he insisted as Nimoy had directed) and had the Yosemite scenes but when they go up to the ship the admiral gives them a romulan mission near/in the neutral zone…cue dangerous mission where they uncover a plot to invade earth or something…hide and seek battle scenes with cloaked ships, nebulas etc- building on the Ent/Reliant battle scenes that proved so popular in TWOK..

Wouldve been apt, getting back to action territory after the light tone of IV.. Then again it was shatners turn to direct..and he had his heart set on the God story

110. The Six Million Dollar Dong - July 1, 2010

STV just about seems up the entire franchise from day 1; massively uneven with huge continuity errors but sprinkled with some of the finest moments of cinema…….

111. raulpetersen - July 1, 2010

bob orci and jas

i once saw a pilot for a series that never got picked called LOST FLIGHT where llyod bridges and a whole plane load of people crash and are trapped on a mysterious island where no one could escape and strange forces surrounded them! the second i heard about lost i thought of that!

p.s. thanks for the high five a while back and giving us one of the best trek movies ever!

112. Jeyl - July 1, 2010

@36: “Except Lost was a HIT.”

A hit may be a hit Bob, but even hits can fade away very quickly where as shows that were not hits at all can become more and more popular with audiences long after it’s been canceled. The original Star Trek series certainly comes to mind.

And thanks to SFdebris for pointing this out, take a look back at some of the “no hit” films at the box office bombs back at the time that have become far more successful with audiences than the films that were hits at the box office upon release. The Princess Bride has certainly done better than Nuts, John Carpenter’s the Thing has done better than Tootsie, and Army of Darkness has done a heck of a lot better than Stop, or my Mom will shoot.

While Lost’s success was certainly big when it was being aired and sold well on DVD/BluRay, I think comparing it to Twin Peaks by merely saying it was “a hit” is disingenuous, because you don’t make points as to why it was a hit, and shows/movies being a hit have never always saved them in the past.

113. Dom - July 1, 2010

A messy, messy film that looks cheap and a crew that is becoming laughably old. It has some lovely moments, but is badly paced, narratively all over the place and often silly. I can still get through watching it, but it needs a re-edit and new FX to pull it into shape. And even then that wouldn’t make it more than a barely average film.

I agree with an earlier post: it was a mistake to kill off David Marcus and sideline Saavik. TWOK set things up so nicely for Kirk and his team to hand over the franchise to a younger team eventually. STIII and IV, for all that I like them, made the mistake of focusing the film franchise on the main cast outside of their lives as Starfleet officers.

For STIII, I would much rather have had Kirk and co on the repaired Enterprise or the Excelsior some time after the events of Khan travelling to Genesis because something incredible was happening there. Bones would be channeling Spock via the mind meld, leading to a final goodbye (even as a good Catholic boy, I’m not big on resurrections!) to Spock as Saavik steps up to the plate as the ship’s science officer.

It should have been a proper shipboard adventure with Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty, but cameos at most by Uhura, Sulu and Chekov: they should have been replaced by younger characters and Kirk should have had a new XO who could have been lined up as a potential future lead actor.

STV is flawed but the seeds for it’s fall were really sown as far back as STIII!

114. Dom - July 1, 2010

‘its fall’ I should say. Cursed iPad auto-correcting my typing!! ;)

115. jas_montreal - July 1, 2010


I’m completely surprised your actually debating “quality” and “success” with me… given that your one of the Writers of TRANSFORMERS 2 (probably one of the horribly written films of my lifetime).

But non the less… You guys copy ideas. I mean, you guys copy A LOT. Very unoriginal.

116. philpot - July 1, 2010

looking at the box office – Trek V didnt do THAT bad.

i think it had a similar opening weekend to the prev films even…

117. ajd - July 1, 2010

Spock’s Brain!

118. James Tyler - July 1, 2010

I’m unsold on V. It was both wonderful and a disaster at the same time. It seemed a bit like an internal parody with an a potentially good plot that went wrong, special effects that were as special as my toe and… well.. rocketboots.

But then there was the laughs, the character moments which were lovely, Luckinbill was wonderful as Sybok and at least one good shot of the E.

It might have been the Spocks Brain of the movies, but it was better than Insuurection.

119. philpot - July 1, 2010

V isnt all bad…id put ahead of INS and NEM as leader of the pack of the worst Trek movies…

i can sort of see what Shatner was going for – a great mystical quest movie, a ‘great unknown’ mcguffin that tapped into the imagination with plenty of action along the way – Star Trek does Indiana Jones or something of that nature….”Star Trek and the Lost Ark” directed by William Shatberg..

maybe if Sybok had been on a quest for something mystical and god releated (but not the actual almighty) it mightve worked better? like what Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade was doing

120. Paul Martin - July 1, 2010

What is brain?

121. Mr. "There are always possibilities" - July 1, 2010

This is AWESOME! Bob Orci, super successful producer and writer taking his time to comment!! What a passion for Trek, and a concern for the fans!! Thanks so much Mr. Orci!!

And well done, Anthony, for making such a great blog that IMO is the ONLY source for Trek and related news!

122. philpot - July 1, 2010

“Star Trek and the Lost Ark” – Like Indy the crew get roped into the whole thing by an outside force searching for something incredible (Nazis/Sybok)…captured/locked up/escape…eventually give in when the quest is completed as the lure of the unknown is too great (“This is history”/”You too must know…”) it even had a similar end (Demonic Angels/False God)

if itd been a bit grander with better FX – it mightve worked…

123. Timncc1701 - July 1, 2010

Of course, the odd numbered TOS movies were less than stellar. V was bad to be sure, but no worse IMHO than TMP. TMP was plagued by wooden direction and a turgid pace. There’s another part of V’ger-react! Yawn.
The script of V did not honor the integrity of the characters: Spock’s failed loyalty, the easy manipulation of Sulu, McCoy, Uhura. I am happy the TOS movies did not end on that note. Harve Bennet, for all of his contributions, was an idiot for wanting to leave the TOS franchise that way. V was indeed a failure, but not the only one. TNG movies are certainly not free from its share of misses.
My favorites fwiw, II, VI, IV, 09 reboot, Generations. TNG misses: Insurrection comes to mind. I did not think the last TNG movie was so bad as many others claim. I liked Nemesis.
As to the other Trek spinoff series, there is a reason none spawned movies. . .

124. Jerry Modene - July 1, 2010

IIRC, STV had a terrific opening weekend, but then the negative reviews kicked in, and then Batman opened a week later, and the box office collapsed. It still made money, but not nearly as much, especially percentage-wise, as II, III, or IV.

125. philpot - July 1, 2010

usually when a series has a film that audiences and critics hate and it dosnt do what the previous entries did it usually results in a massive rethink resulting in the series taking a break for a good few years until theres a reboot (e.g. Batman & Robin, Superman 4, Hulk, ST: Nemesis…even Bond with Licence to Kill & Die Another Day)

i think star trek is one of the few big film series that survived a ‘dud’ entry and produced a proper sequel 2 years later business as usual as if nothing happened

126. CmdrR - July 1, 2010

This is such a maligned movie. The truth is that Shatner has always needed a strong hand to guide him. The studio COULD have assigned someone to pull back the reins, but didn’t.

ST V — the recut edition (with fart jokes and numerous continuity errors removed) is not a bad Trek. Not the best, but not bad.

127. Darmok - July 1, 2010

The only problem with V is execution. The idea of searching for God is universal to the human condition, atheists notwithstanding. The character moments in V are classic TOS ‘big three’ gold. It hardly get’s any better (TWOK engine room scene, the TWOK Captains quarters scene with Kirk and his son, and others come to mind, but overall TFF is entirely about the big three).

What causes V to ‘fail’ (and I only use that term since it’s clearly not universally loved) is how it’s executed. Searching for God is a great premise, but c’mon – at the “center of the galaxy”? Strike one.

First of all, how the hell are they able to get there so quickly?

Second, why OUR galaxy? Why not the universe? Why not something all together different/more creative instead of a point on the map? Strike two.

Then we find out it’s just a megalomaniac imprisoned there, trying to break out of jail? Really? That’s the best you can come up with? Lame. Strike three.

Couple these failures with the horrific (certainly, for the time and after the great results of TMP, TWOK and TVH) SFX and much of the movie comes off as cheese.

Shame, really – it was sooo close to being one of the best, if not THE best, of the entire franchise. It had the character stuff nailed, it just needed better thought/effort in the plot and sfx to glue it all together.

128. Horatio - July 1, 2010

107 – That’s an interesting take on V. You’re right, it makes the film seem more rational if viewed from that perspective.

In alot of ways I think V was Shatner working out his own angst with growing old, does God exist and death. I have seen him on more than one occassion wax philosphical about death. I think as he is riding off into the sunset he is still struggling with his mortality. To borrow from Generations, he feels the predator lurking.

129. Hugh Hoyland - July 1, 2010

Dang I love the Rock Man. Actually for 1988-89 that wasnt a bad peice of animatronics. Shatner really wanted that in the movie, it was supposed to be a big part of the climax. But the guy who actually was supposed to wear the suit said Bennett nixed it, saying it “wasnt” Star Trek. Dunno if thats true or not, just what I read.

130. Steve Pinsent - July 1, 2010

@ bob orci…

Nice to see you on the board – not the first time I know. Keep up the fantastic work – whatever you guys do with the next trek make it successful first and foremost…. We all want more trek… As for the “fans” (well a few anyway) criticizing you for work that you have and have not done – what can do? Personally I think you should take it to heart – let it eat you up inside – and make you question any measure of success you’ve had… kidding….

As for Trek V – I’ve always enjoyed it – I do remember being let down by it in theatre – looking back I don’t know what they were thinking considering that they had an opportunity to capitalize with the broadened audience from IV. which is why I say just make it successful. Trek for us fanboys just won’t cut it anymore.

131. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

I think V is definitely in the Top Ten or Eleven of my all time favourite Trek films. ;-))

132. Kent Butabi - July 1, 2010

TFF is in my top three TREK films. Love it.

133. P Technobabble - July 1, 2010

I always felt the Klingon ambassador’s line in TVH — “There will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!” — would have been a great place for Trek V to go… Perhaps Kruge’s brother swore vengeance on Kirk. Kirk hunted and captured by Klingons, then it’s up to Spock, McCoy and crew to save him…
As I understand it, the Trek V movie we saw in the theater is not the movie Shatner intended on making. Both Harve Bennett and David Loughery had a significant hand in changing Shatner’s proposed story. Thus, I don’t think all the blame should fall on Shatner’s shoulders. I believe if the film had had better FX, it would have made a huge difference in our perception… we may have been able to forgive the story a bit more. I always felt Shatner should have been allowed to do a Director’s Cut with new FX, and perhaps a bit more creative editing.

102. StarFury
I am familiar with the Marshall edit, but could never find it. It’s probably not permissible to put a link on this site, but maybe some vague hint as to how to find it…? Your comments are in line with everything I read about it.

134. www.chrisfawkes.com - July 1, 2010

I was gutted, just gutted when this film came out and it was such a dog.

Over time i think there are several things from this movie that really defined the relationship between Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

And it was much much better then Nemesis

And Insurrection

And Generations.

Not so bad at all in hindsight.

135. Shatner_Fan_Prime - July 1, 2010

If TOS had never been cancelled and had run 20 years, TFF is what a typical episode would have been like in 1989. Yes, it is VERY TOS-like. I’ve been re-watching episodes on Blu Ray lately, and aliens taking control of the Enterprise and sending it on their own quest was pretty common. As was aliens controlling the minds of the crew.

I’m glad the cast got to go out with a better film in 1991, but I enjoy TFF. In spite of its flaws, it’s a fun movie. The Galileo was back, the Big 3 were charming, there was a strange new world to be explored, the loaction photography was beautiful and the score was perfect.

136. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

V was on a beating from the get go. As mentioned, all the god talk put people way off. I can remember hearing talk on a national radio station here in the UK about it long before it came out. They said it was expected to bomb! And they were basing that on the god notion alone it seemed.
People wouldn’t even give it a chance.
That being said, as others have said, it is a problem child. But we still love a child thats a problem. Don’t we?

137. OLLEY OLLEY OLLEY - July 1, 2010

The dialogue was clunky and the story was terrible, OH AND WAIT!


& don’t get me started on the “special” Effects

138. Aldo F. Rodriguez - July 1, 2010

“– we almost killed the franchise, it almost died.”

…almost: Star Trek V: The Final Battle ?

(but that sequel title was already taken I guess… ;-)

139. Praetor Tal - July 1, 2010

Amateur CGI is getting pretty good. Only a matter of time before some fans take a stab at cleaning up TFF. Do you hear me, Paramount? Better get out front while you can! :-)

140. star trackie - July 1, 2010

#9 “This may sound like blasphemy, but I think Star Trek V is actually one that’s closest in tone to TOS.”

Not blasphemous at all. Its very true. Most of the movies were good movies, but missed the mark when it came to the heart and core of TOS, and that is the relationship between the Kirk, Spock and McCoy. This movie knocked the ball out of the ballpark when it came to exploring that relationship. Other noteworthy TOS moments for me included the return of the Galileo, original TOS sound effects were sweet music to my ears, Spock playing THE vulcan lyre…not a new re-invented version, but THE version from the TV show, Kirk’s sly misleading reference to the death of his “brother”, A TOS style teaser before the opening credits, Scotty’s cool three pronged engineering device and much more.

Sure, it has some production goofs, what movie doesn’t? Yeah, 70 something decks. Big deal. On TOS filmed the entire beginning of Enemy Within without a command insignia on Kirk’s shirt. Big deal, it happens all the time and just makes for an interesting novelty, nothing more.

As far as the story goes, it wasn’t really about the “Search for God.” I get so tired if hearing that nonsense. It was about a nut who happened to hijack the Enterprise in order for HIM to search for HIS God and how our heroes get out of the predicament. Nothing new here, we’ve saw it in TOS many times. It worked for the TV show and it worked in Trek 5.

Now I’ll admit, much of the comedy was ill advised, but I blame that on the epic success of the comical Voyage Home. And some of the comic moments were in the best tradition of the original series. Definitely a mixed bag on that front.

The main thing was how this movie treated the main 3 and how they come to terms with the fact that the only family they have is each other. It was closest in content, spirit and execution, to the original TV series, and being first and foremost a fan of the original series, that is a true compliment and I couldn’t ask for more.

141. Shatner_Fan_Prime - July 1, 2010

#140 “The main thing was how this movie treated the main 3 and how they come to terms with the fact that the only family they have is each other. It was closest in content, spirit and execution, to the original TV series, and being first and foremost a fan of the original series, that is a true compliment and I couldn’t ask for more.”

I couldn’t agree more. Good post!

142. Cafe 5 - July 1, 2010

I think Star Trek V is OK. It does need some editing and some new visual EFX. When you watch a movie on DVD and the visuals on the disc menu are better than what in the movie there is a problem. It would not break Paramount to have a new director’s cut of this film put together.

143. Damian - July 1, 2010

Star Trek V is my least favorite of the 11. That being said, I still liked it in as much as it was still Star Trek at its core. I actually read the novel by JM Dillard before the movie came out and if you ever get a chance, it is a good read. I thought, Gee this is going to be a great movie based on the book. It did a good job of explaining some of the more fantastical elements of the movie (like how they got to the center of the galaxy so quick). William Shatner wanted to make a straightforward sci-fi drama film, but with the success of Star Trek IV, Paramount insisted on adding comedy. I think this was the first problem. Shatner also became super-hammy in his acting (this was the first film where his acting became a distraction for me). Unfortunately, that did continue into Star Trek VI. The special effects also seemed shoddy to me (ILM interns could have done a better job). Too bad Paramount did not give Shatner his million to update the effects.

There were some positives though: Jerry Goldsmith’s music was one of the best in this film. Also, while I was not enthralled with the idea of Spock having a half brother, Luckinbill did do a great job as Sybok. Also, the scene where McCoy pulls his father’s life support was powerful.

I also liked the set designs of Herman Zimmerman. He did a good job with the Enterprise sets and showing what would eventually become the Enterprise D in a few decades. The forward observation room was one of my favorite sets. I was glad when Nicholas Meyer kept him on for VI. Zimmerman is one guy I wished the Abrams team had held over from the Berman regime. He would have done a good job of showing an updated version of the Enterprise for Abrams while maintaining a bit of familiarity with the other incarnations of Trek. And engineering would have had a recognizable warp core. (Apologies to Bob Orci and to Scott Chambliss, there were many things I loved about Star Trek [2009], but set design was one of my pet peeves.)

144. Damian - July 1, 2010

Note to 143–million to update the effects for the special edition DVD

145. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - July 1, 2010

@ boborci

I was looking at your bio and noticed you were involved in “The Secret Service”, as co-creator, writer and executive producer… Can you tell us about that I have never heard of that show or movie whatever its supposed to be.

146. Boborci - July 1, 2010

115. Oh, no. You’ve caught us! Please don’t tell anybody we didn’t create Star Trek!

147. Boborci - July 1, 2010


We shot a pilot about the secret service but it was never picked up.

148. Boborci - July 1, 2010


And I wasn’t debating quality. Just hit status. And clear differences.

149. William Kirk - July 1, 2010

I love Trek V. Hope for special effects improvement.

150. Pierre F - July 1, 2010

A couple of comments:

Bran Ferren and Associates were responsible for the optical effects on the film Altered States, which was originally supposed to be handled by John Dykstra’s Apogee unit. Dykstra had a falling out with the production and left the film before shooting began (though I may be wrong on the timing).

The finale of the film required that the two principal actors appear to be breaking down into primal energy. The original concept was to film the actors in full body makeup, which was designed by Dick Smith. Front projection material was painted into cracked fissures in the full body makeup and footage of fire could then be composited in-camera to show the character’s bodies breaking down into primal energy.

Unfortunately, the footage didn’t really turn out as well as the production team expected. Dick Smith’s foam rubber body suits, sculpted to look like the actor’s bodies were turning inside out, looked exactly like actors in rubber suits. The footage that was front projected onto the makeup didn’t help either.

Eventually, Bran Ferren used every optical trick in the book to rotoscope the actors out of their environments and create a new layer of effects to make them seem like they were really breaking apart on a molecular level. In many respects, Ferren turned mediocre footage into something really dynamic. BTW, it’s a great film if you’ve never seen it.

I think it was this “seat of your pants” approach to special effects that really appealed to Shatner and the Trek V team. I think some of the effects footage from the end of Trek V are quite good, especially the footage of the Enterprise and the Bird of Prey orbiting the God Planet which is really quite beautiful. Unfortunately, much of the effects are not as well conceived, which really let the film down.

On a personal note, I’ve always had a soft spot for Trek V. For me, it felt closest to the original series on many levels. They were actually on a mission to seek out new life and new civilizations. A lot of the humor is forced but you get to see aspects of these character’s psyches that had never been explored before. Of course, there are plenty of cringe-worthy moments too but I always thought this film felt like some lost episode of an unfilmed season.

151. CAPT KRUNCH - July 1, 2010

The first 10 minutes and the last 5 minutes…the olny redeeming part of the whole danm thang!!….oh Uhura’s moon dance was pretty good!
the story…sucked!
the fx………sucked!
the brother( we have never heard of before)…sucked!
If you take each part and break them down…
Kirk falling off EL Kapitan…seriously bad fx all around… Spocks rocket boots…indeed
We finally get to see a shuttlecraft….and they short change the shuttle bay…when did it get so small from TMP….barracade indeed!
Sybok…his motivation was great…actted very well…the whole idea of introducing a brother this late in the game seems far fetched.
The planet of galactic peace…even David Warner couldn’t save that…
the Romulan didn’t lookm very Romulan…the 3 brested catgirl….did they steal her from Total Recall!….did like the new phasers!
Uhur’a’s dance was wild…and SHAT got to ride his horse…that was fun!
Klaa and Vixis were great Klingons…but enough of the bird of prey stock footage…shooting Voyager 2….indeed!
even the new Enterprise..the doors don’t work…the 90 decks as seen in the turboshaft. flourescent tubes for the holding cells…come on!!!
the galactic barrier at the center of the galaxy….fx and bad acting by all…oh th horor….is that what the posters were referring to when they said seat belts would be installed in the theatre seats??!!!…very weak indeed!
and finally …GOD….I don’t know where to start….what does god need with a starship….the whole concept was cheap….thank “god” the “rock monster” never made it into the film….lame lame lame!!
SHAT…what were you thinking!!
and as #107 says it were a Kirk dream..this is a nightmare, but I would agree that it is in my top 11 favorite TREK films.

152. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

140 but they, Bill et al, actively said they were looking for god! It was the team behind the movie to blame for that one. Clearly, those ‘brave’ enough to ignore that poor sell would have seen as much.
It was that poor decision- to say they were searching for God, that Winter is saying was the poor one. And he is so right.

153. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

151 I personally never had a problem with Spock having a brother that w’ed never heard of. We also had no idea about David Marcus but he was welcomed to the family.

154. Bryan - July 1, 2010

I think Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was a terrible film. It didn’t feel like a Star Trek movie at all and the only reason I have a copy on my shelf is to ensure I have a complete collection of Star Trek.

The whole premise did nothing but slap Star Trek in the face. A Rogue Vulcan named Sybok who obviously didn’t go through the Kholinar and embraced emotions in search of ‘God’ ?? And yes, Capt Krunch I’ve never been able to see pass the serious design flaws like the 90 decks in the turboshaft – They didn’t maintain scale of the shuttle bay/Shuttle either and that just made the movie look ridiculous.

I’m just glad, it really wasn’t the “Final Frontier”

155. TOY - July 1, 2010

@ 148. Boborci – July 1, 2010

I am so impressed, I can’t imagine many writers taking the time to comment on boards like this. Thanks for taking the time and good to know Trek’s got a future.

156. Boborci - July 1, 2010

155. Toy

Awe, shucks. The regulars aren’t that impressed by now. If u keep coming back, you’ll get tired of me, too!

157. Thomas Jensen - July 1, 2010

As with many episodes of original trek, this movie had some nice moments, but didn’t make much sense overall. But, as far as the idea to search for god, that came from Shatner that got them into that mess. He was warned about it from Harve Bennett as we all know.

Even if the thing could have been done as a applauded work of film, it wasn’t an interesting idea. It would have been nice to see one film with the original crew that would have set them back out into unexplored space, away from contact with the controlling legal authority, in an adventure where the decisions of the Captain, et al. would be the focus without all the set-up, just a mission to explore… with some dramatic complications due to their isolation from civilization, of course.

158. Kev -1 - July 1, 2010

Oddly enough, V seems to be most like TOS to me, especially the scene during the climax where Kirk comes back on the bridge and takes over: “No conditions?” The story has problems — how can you meet God? — but it’s similar to Gene Roddenberry’s unpublished novel and unused movie plot, The God Thing, so in a way could Shatner have been paying homage to G. R.? Or it could be coincidence or convenience. I don’t know the money politics, but with quality FX this movie would have been much better. And what happened to the sets? Did TNG take everything? I don’t understand stuff like the Klingon periscope and the 78 deck shaft, though. But I enjoyed the movie for character moments. Although I remember apologizing to the theater owner on the way out. He said something like: “Thank God I don’t make ’em, kid.”

159. Horatio - July 1, 2010

Bob Orci – Homework assignment time from the locals. Go watch Trek V and report back to us.

Who knows, maybe it will inspire you on the script you are starting to flesh out.


160. mikeypikey (Ireland) - July 1, 2010

@Boborci, you’re unbelievable talented, my first star trek movie to see in a theater was generations and I’ve seen every trek movie on the silver screen since , your’s was the most enteraining and energetic and fresh that I’ve seen on the big screen to date, why are you wasting your time and energy responing to these other bitchy comments!! ;-) take it easy, can’t wait for the summer of ’12…

161. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

155 and 156 its true. I even scroll straight past his posts these days!

162. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

160 Bob gets off on the bitchy comments!

163. Anthony Pascale - July 1, 2010

Bob. Never tired of you showing up!

164. Mott - July 1, 2010

Looking back is fun but c’mon can we look to the future and think about making more Star Trek television programmes? There is a severe Star Trek drought on my TV not withstanding endless repeats. My god Jim we need to make a new series! Sorry for going off topic so by way of apology I will say this V was shockingly bad. Do you remember “God” being angry by shouting oooooOOOOOOHHHHHHH? ha ha

165. DMB1138 - July 1, 2010

@Boborci– Just wanted to say thanks for a fun ride in 2009, I haven’t enjoyed Star Trek that much in decades! Great movie. Good luck with the sequel.

PS– May I cast a vote for Klingons? And not Space Viking Samura “Death Before Dishonor” Klingons, but clever, crafty, rotten ba$tard Klingons? You know, the real ones??? Thanks again.

166. philpot - July 1, 2010

#143 – Shatner was playing Shatner in Trek V and Generations

in the others he was playing a mature James T Kirk

167. Victor Hugo - July 1, 2010

haha you won´t convince me to hate Star Trek V hahaha. :P

I had fun watching it, I hugged my father after watching it, you can´t hate this movie, it has a heart.

And it has Jerry Goldsmith.

168. philpot - July 1, 2010

dunno if anyones noticed but Trek 09 recreated once scene from Trek V (in the deleted scenes) – Spocks birth…

does Sarek say ‘so human’ in the Trek 09 scene? i leant my brother the damn dvd so cant find out !!

169. philpot - July 1, 2010

167 – yeah i the score was one of the best in the series. Trek V sort of deserves a free pass due to that alone..

170. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

168 not that I recall. But i’ve only seen ’09 about 16 times!

171. CAPT KRUNCH - July 1, 2010

the ’09 Sarek seems to accept his Spock unlike the TOS or TFF scene.
and I see you point BUZZ…we did accept Kirk’s son…and I really felt for him when David died… I guess the problem is simply the storyline..
Kirk did not know about a son…. or did he.?….Spock knew he had a brother..I can’t believe he never told Kirk..he must have really been ashamed of him or was sworn to silence etc etc////

172. nigematige - July 1, 2010


jeez dude learn how to cut your losses, you’ve been burned by Bob Orci like 10 times over, it’s getting embarrassing.

173. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

Kirk knew about David, Krunch. #171 because he (Kirk) asked Carol why she had never told him who his father was.

‘i did what you asked. I stayed away. Why didnt you tell him?’

And I felt Davids death was a horrible waste of a great potential relationship for Kirk. I hated it then and I still do. Although David trying to save Saavik was indeed a demonstration of his bloodline.

174. Lt. Bailey - July 1, 2010

Each of us have their own opinions about how each ST film is rated or how liked it is or if its the best, etc.

Myself, I do rate this film very high and I only smoke a cigar once in a while.

It rates higher than Insurrection for me as I don’t even own the DVD for that film, it was just a long TNG episode for TV so I will not bother with adding Insurrection to my film library.

But to gain another insight to ST V, one should read the book that Shatner and his daughter wrote on the making of TFF. Yes, it has Shatner making his point about what could have been done better, but you find he was right in a lot of spots. Plus the little bits of trivia are good to know when this film was made.

Still, this is just my opinion and others will have theirs which is OK with me.

175. jas_montreal - July 1, 2010


“Oh, no. You’ve caught us! Please don’t tell anybody we didn’t create Star Trek!”

Well, Trek 09 wasn’t Star Trek….. It was Star Wars…. oh wait… it was star trek ?

The old Star Trek was about Idea’s and though-provoking is no longer…. BECAUSE OF YOU GUYS.

Ebert said it the best…… “The Gene Roddenberry years, when stories might play with questions of science, ideals or philosophy, have been replaced by stories reduced to loud and colorful action.”

All i remember you guys as are the people who murdered Star Trek for me. Star Trek effected me a lot, but you guys butchered it.

176. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

‘don’t mince words, jas, what do you really think’!

177. Red Dead Ryan - July 1, 2010


I enjoy reading every single comment of yours. I grovel at your feet! :-)

With cgi being so good these days, would you consider a cameo from the “Rock Man” from “The Final Frontier”?

I mean J.J Abrams wanted to add some “rock n’ roll” to Star Trek, and what better wat to do that with a creature made out of rock?

178. Red Dead Ryan - July 1, 2010

oops, the rock man was from a DELETED SCENE from st v.

It was in “Galaxy Quest” as well.

179. I am not Herbert - July 1, 2010

ranking poll is VERY unclear ( I voted 1 for lowest rank?)

this movie sucked because Sybok is a douche

180. Imrahil - July 1, 2010

#107 – That was pretty brilliant, actually. I’m going to watch for that next time I see it. :)

181. Damian - July 1, 2010

#166–You have to add Star Trek VI to that short list also. I loved VI but the hammy acting seemed to carry over from V and continue to Generations. Something happened to him between 1986 and 1989, between IV and V. Even when I see him today, he acts much differently than he did up to Star Trek IV. It was like someone turning a switch. He almost mocks himself these days.

Maybe he was replaced by a Changeling ;)

182. dep1701 - July 1, 2010

…” You see some interesting backstory on the big three, including how Spock was initially rejected by his father ”

I never bought that scene, any more than I bought the “long-lost-half-brother bit. I thought it was simply visual shorthand for people who were unfamiliar with the ‘Journey To Babel’ backstory. Sarek had to have known what would happen if he mated with a human woman, and I find it hard to believe, even from an “emotionless” Vulcan, that he would be so cruel as to say something that hurtful in the presence of his wife who had just given birth. And if you were Amanda, would you have been able to forgive him? Another poorly written scene, in a ( mostly) poorly written movie.

Orci and Kurtzman’s (sadly deleted ) Spock birth scene was far more on the mark, IMO.

183. Shatner_Fan_Prime - July 1, 2010

I don’t agree with all the comments that always crop up about Bill “not playing Kirk anymore” beginning with V. It’s called life, aging, and change, people. I’m in my 30’s and am now more mellow and easygoing about a lot of things that would have bothered me in my 20’s. Imagine how much a man can change between his 30’s and his 60’s! People change. Bill changed. Kirk changed. It’s realistic.

184. Pro-Khan-Sel - July 1, 2010

I just watched some re-edits of ST5 on youtube, Some shots look better while some don’t, The shuttle’s emergency landing on the hanger deck still looks lame. For one thing, The hanger bay is too small.. Compared with TOS. Also the light patterns under the shuttle looked cheesy and seem to serve no purpose other than to demonstrate that the shuttle has electric power. The shuttle crash sequence inside the hanger bay was way too long compared to reality of it.. It looks like a 40 mph crash.

Another cringing moment was McCoy looking through his binoculars mumbling like a senile old man. and then looking directly looking into the camera, Almost as if he wanted to quit the movie right there and then.

In order to enjoy a movie, The audience need’s to care about the charaters, Not just the heroes, But the villans as well. I personally didn’t care about the planet of galactic peace, or the villians. simaler thing happened in Insurrection, I didn’t care about the Sona. I had to give sybok the benifit of the doubt because spock vouched for him.

On the other hand, We cared about Khan and his first officer, we cared about kruge and HIS first officer, and we cared about general chang. I also liked Lursa and her sister on generations and soren was very likeable. The entire kilingon crew on STV was so generic that I could have cared less, Until the Old klingon took command. Reminded me of Kempek (a very likeable klingon)

I did also like the hole-digger guy at the beginning of V, But he failed to evolve at all and became a shadow. It would have been nice to see him betray sybok and kirk and decide to stay on the god-planet, The last shot of him should have been him digging holes and laughing.

185. Damian - July 1, 2010

183–This was not gradual change. Watching IV then V, it is almost like he is a different person. Shatner always had a unique acting style, but it ballooned 500% in V.

184–The actor playing Korrd in Star Trek V was the same as played Km’Pec in The Next Generation. He even wore the same costume in both.

186. Osi - July 1, 2010

Umm 3 Xman movies, there is no 4th

187. Anthony Pascale - July 1, 2010

umm, let’s see…Winter has produced:
X-Men: The Last Stand
X-Men Origins: Wolverine

How many do you see?

188. Pro-Khan-Sel - July 1, 2010

#185 I should have known.

189. Bucky - July 1, 2010

Another plus in STV’s favour? Checkov gets to sit in the chair and command them to go to warp (his “warp speed now” line was used in all the trailers and ads and it was a big push-the-camera-in “hero shot”). Cripes, even when Checkov is running the bridge in “Star Trek” after Pike goes down to the shuttle, Checkov doesn’t even get out of his seat. You’d think he’d bounce for the chair. Hell, I know I would.

190. Bucky - July 1, 2010

Just talking to myself, isn’t there another moment when Checkov is left running the bridge in “Star Trek” and goes “Ehi-yi-yi” or something. If only the writer of the movie was here to set us straight!

191. NC Trekker - July 1, 2010

I read the book before the movie came out and was turned off by the story. When Sulu, Scotty, et al turned against Kirk due to Sybok revealing their “secret pain,” that went against all the Star Trek that had come before. I didn’t see the movie in the theater and only rented it on VHS years later. Clearly the worst of the films and one that I like to ignore completely. The characters are all wrong. Think of the close of TSFS and then reconcile that with the premise of TFF. It doesn’t work.

192. philpot - July 1, 2010

191 – i agree to a certain extent..

Trek V really dosnt ‘feel’ as though it belongs in the TOS movies. i mean neither does TMP really due to the tone and look but Trek V dosnt ‘belong’ in a different way. II, III and IV are all a contuning story of course and VI is like the belated 4th movie/epilogue to those…V is just sort of ‘there’ inbetween them like it shouldnt be but is….different tone/look/feel/FX, jokes for the sake of jokes, strange ‘hyper’ astmosphere, Captain Shatner instead of Captain Kirk etc

hmm difficult to describe it…

193. star trackie - July 1, 2010

#191 “The characters are all wrong.”

Wow. Don’t know how to react to something so far off base. Try 2 doses of TOS every other day for a month and see if that helps any.

194. Ralph F - July 1, 2010

Was just about to write in, agree with #43. Best thing about V is Goldsmith’s score.

195. M_E - July 1, 2010

“say, if Star Trek V were ever to be released again on Blu-Ray, does anyone think they should go about re-tooling the effects, ala Star Wars?”

“They really need to do a special edition of Trek 5 with new effects. I mean, c’mon! Shooting effects is not as expensive as it use to be, and they would make their money back and more.”

“Amateur CGI is getting pretty good. Only a matter of time before some fans take a stab at cleaning up TFF. Do you hear me, Paramount? Better get out front while you can! :-)”

Search of clips on youtube as someone above did; some of the remade scenes are realy well done; even a great barrier scene rejected by the author himself is way better than what we get to see in the movie.

196. Greg2600 - July 1, 2010

I enjoy V very much so. It was funny and delved into the characters well. Unfortunately, the rest of it was hideous. Oh well.

191- Scotty DID NOT turn against Kirk. Don’t you know a jailbreak when you see one? I thought it felt a lot like an TOS episode, in terms of some of the crew being brainwashed.

197. Captain Scokirk - July 1, 2010

Trek V- has so many wonderful Star Trek moments, more say than the lesser TNG movies. It’s funny how often someone will say how awful the movie is and then recall atleast 40-60 minutes of solid entertainment. Granted that still leaves half a bad movie, but I’d be hard pressed to put together 40-60 minutes of great moments out of Insurrection and Nemesis. I liked Generations, it was cinematic in a way the other TNG movies werent, and First Contact is a fun movie, but Classic Cast IMHO outweighs sequel films.

And I the reason the turboshaft was closed for repairs was because someone (perhaps the Prime Deep Roy/little guy from Trek 2009) relabeled the floors for a person of his stature or to mess with Scotty’s head. Maybe he installed that pipe Scotty didnt see out of the corner of his eye too.

I find it fascinating that Mr. Orci posts here but also how often he will debate someone who clearly hates his work. It is remarkable that with this anonymous forum you can engage in conversations with total strangers and say things to them you would never say to their faces.

I thought Trek 2009 had some wonderful moments which at the end of the day is all I really want from my Star Trek. The characters/settings are like old friends it’s great to see them again and again.

198. Ralph F - July 1, 2010

Listening to the soundtrack now; I remember being disappointed in so many things but but loved hearing Goldsmith’s old “Klingons” cue when they made their appearance. (Hint to Michael Giacchino; listen to all the old movie-era music as well as to every TOS collection b’f scoring the next Trek.)

In the same way I feel every time I see a rerun of “Yesterday’s ENTERPRISE”, and the loss of what should have been the storyline for GENERATIONS, I feel the missed opportunities of V and what it could have been.

Y’know, “Galaxy Quest” just immediately leaped to mind.

199. Balok - July 1, 2010

Tremendously high expecatations after Leonard’s jewel (ST4), and tremendously bad bad delivery in ST5.

Making the Trek newbie’s wait for 3 years between re-booted Trek releases will create huge exptectations, I hope Mr. Orci and team will fair much better than the ST5 crew did…

200. Ralph F - July 1, 2010

BTW, search for TREK5SE on YouTube for some interesting CGI re-try’s on STV.

201. S. John Ross - July 1, 2010

#191, #192:

Yes. Just … yes :(

It is, sadly, the only movie in my life I ever did the ridiculous-long-line for, as well. I showed up like six hours before the movie to hang out in line (which became a kind of mini-con, very fun) and we all walked out of the theater just … heads hanging low.

With some disappointing films, there’s an initial rush of excitement from being in the theater and from _wanting_ it to be great, and you can ride out on that, and only on reflection go “hey, wait. That actually kind of sucked, didn’t it?” at the diner an hour later when discussing it with your date over a cuppa and a slice of pie. With STV, the entire audience I saw it with shuffled out of the theater, openly groaning and lamenting the beating we’d just been handed.

202. StarFuryG7 - July 1, 2010

133. P Technobabble
I am familiar with the Marshall edit, but could never find it. It’s probably not permissible to put a link on this site, but maybe some vague hint as to how to find it…? Your comments are in line with everything I read about it.”

You’re right –it doesn’t appear to be available online any longer unfortunately, and since some of the sites it would have been available on were just shut down as of yesterday I believe, you’re now out of luck apparently, but you might well have been able to get it as recently as last weekend had you tried.

Is that your email address on the Page your Screen Name Links to?

203. Flake - July 1, 2010

Trek V was the first of the Trek films I saw as a young kid, maybe 7 or 8. Prior to seeing V I think the only bits of Trek I had seen was a few early TNGs that my babysitter showed me (he was a big fan of Trek and had all of TOS on VHS!) and some of TOS…. unfortunately at the time I wasn’t impressed by TOS probably because it seemed old and dated to me at the time.

Anyway, point is that I really enjoyed Trek V and watched it over and over and far from killing the franchise for me it actually got me hooked and now 18 years later I’ve seen them all.

Obviously as I got older and wiser it gradually became clear that Trek V was pretty awful, but when I was 7 or 8 it helped me get hooked on Trek :)

204. Former Trekologist - July 1, 2010

When I saw it in the theater, there was a dramatic musical piece for the main title. The bloody title visibly wobbled as it flew in! I mean, not even just a little.

I remember saying to myself, “Aw, crap!”

205. P Technobabble - July 1, 2010

202. StarFury

Yes it is.

206. P Technobabble - July 1, 2010

Trek V definitely plays better on tv than it did on the big screen. As cheesey as the visuals look on tv, seeing them blown up made it worse. And the scene of Kirk falling off the mountain was really dreadful. My insides cringed as I watched that one.
This is really the movie we love to pick on — apart from the FX, it has that awful female Romulan ambassador, Scotty knocking himself out, Kirk and McCoy’s awful singing voices, and the Wizard of Oz-headed “god.”
All in all, and despite all of its faults, I like the damn thing. It does have the great character moments, especially McCoy and Spock having to relive their pasts. And I thought Shatner had some decent “directorial” visions.

207. Magic_Al - July 1, 2010

^58. Paramount wouldn’t have been giving ILM Star Trek work to incentivize ILM to work on Indy films because Indiana Jones is made by Lucasfilm. ILM is “locked in” for future Indy films by being a division of Lucasfilm. Paramount is just Indy’s distributor.

Ralph Winter earns respect for not passing the buck on the effects problems. I always thought they had no choice but to use a cheaper FX house. Looking at the lineup of blockbusters in 1989 it’s believable that all the good FX houses were too busy, and that ILM, because Indy 3 was a Lucasfilm production coming out the same year, was less available for outside work.

208. kmart - July 1, 2010


The ILM/Par thing is what Trumbull claimed. Trumbull had a very good idea of how Paramount worked, since he was trapped there for most of the 70s.

209. Brett L. - July 1, 2010

A perfect storm that all began with a flawed premise that Trek had covered before. A few good moments to be sure, but a wasted opportunity to see the original cast in a more worthy adventure.

210. Captain_Z - July 1, 2010

Is all Trek good? No! But we enjoy watching it anyway. Let’s quit complaining and enjoy the franchise like we all claim to!

211. OLLEY OLLEY OLLEY - July 1, 2010

A question I thought about 20 years ago.

WTF was going on with Sybok hair?

It starts of with a Sybok MULLET and ends up with the mullet gone! ??

212. Malcontent - July 1, 2010


If you’re old enough to drive, you have no excuse for being such a child in a public forum. They “murdered” star trek for you? Could you be more ridiculous?

Grow up.

If you can’t do that, have the decency not to talk.

213. NC Trekker - July 1, 2010


Characters? So Spock wouldn’t phaser stun his black sheep half-brother for Kirk, the guy who risked his career and destroyed NCC-1701 on a mission to rescue Spock from Genesis? I know Kirk said “kill him” but are we supposed to believe the weapon didn’t have a stun setting?

Also, the people who fell under Sybok’s influence were not shown to be drugged or brainwashed. They chose to turn against their captain. Loyalty among the main cast is supposed to be unshakable in Star Trek. That was my biggest problem with TFF.

214. T'cal - July 1, 2010

This truly a horrible film. We are so lucky that TPTB allowed another film. NEM was a weak film but nowhere near as awful as STV. I really figured that since there was a STVI after STV, there would be a Next Gen film to follow NEM. Truth be told, as big a fan as I am for TNG, FC was the only one of the four that I go out of my way to watch. GEN has way too many plot holes, INS is OK but would’ve been fine on TV, and NEM’s writing for the well-known characters was just plain poor. I wish it had stayed on TV or returned as a miniseries.

215. Buzz Cagney - July 1, 2010

#213 as far as I know the ‘gun’ was a home-made device that fired stones. I’m not sure how such a ‘gun’ would stun. To be honest I’m not even sure how such a gun, short of a very lucky shot betwen the eyes, would even kill!

But I definitely agree with your point about the crew turning on their Captain.
But it did help to emphasise the strong bond between the Big3 when they stuck together despite Syboks best efforts.

216. Red Dead Ryan - July 1, 2010

No matter what one’s opinions are of “Star Trek V: The Final Frontier”, one thing is certain: it has sparked a lively debate and conversation. :-)


If there is a reboot of TNG, it should be as a tv series. Since it would be an ensemble show, it would be easier to give each character their moments. I think from now on, Paramount will only feature TOS characters on the big screen. Meaning when J.J and his cast and crew are done, new actors will play Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

217. New Horizon - July 1, 2010


Didn’t Kirk simply say, “shoot him”?

218. S. John Ross - July 1, 2010

#206: “Trek V definitely plays better on tv than it did on the big screen.”

I agree, although I think that’s damning it with faint praise :)

I saw V once on the big screen, and then never watched it again for years and years (until someone paid me to) and I _did_ warm to it a little more on the small screen, but I think for me it was more about forgiveness in the fullness of time than anything else.

Of course, I have no issue with the FX and never did. I’m a Doctor Who and Blake’s 7 fan from back in the days when a cardboard tube could be a high-tech instrument … FX is meaningless to me. All of my issues with V are just like all of my issues with any of the films: character, story.

But that one emotional McCoy scene just soars, then and always. It almost redeems the entire film for me.

#210: “Let’s quit complaining and enjoy the franchise like we all claim to!”

Maybe start by taking your own advice :)

219. Scruffy the Janitor/Vampire Slayer - July 1, 2010

People who grew up on TOS, and who watch classic films like “Father Goose” and “North by Northwest” are going to like ST5. People who started watching movies after Star Wars and who grew up watching the A Team and Knight Rider are going to not like ST5.

Me, I read books.

220. Scruffy the Janitor/Vampire Slayer - July 1, 2010

Olley Olley Olley

The Enterprise has a barber shop…

221. "Check the Circuit!" - July 1, 2010

For those commenting that V was the closest to a TOS episode…How about that opening teaser?? Only one of the films (other that III’s flashback pre credits) to feature a teaser. That opening 2-3 minutes were terrific! Loved how the teaser ending with a laughing Vulcan and rolled into the classic TOS fanfare then morphed into TMP theme. Breathtaking!

Rest of the movie? meh.

By the way….that “favored nations” clause in the contracts of Shat and Nimoy? Started LONG before STV. I thought I’d heard even back to TOS. So Shat got paid extra $$$ for III and IV. Not bad work if you can get it.

222. Scruffy the Janitor/Vampire Slayer - July 1, 2010

About the ship:

I’m glad it got paint jobs. Lends an air of realism. Even 40 year old wet navy real ships get painted occasionally.

Bob.O : I only had one friend who watched Lost, and evenhe hated the ending.

Should have gone out with a non-ending like TOS! LOL :) ha ha

223. "Check the Circuit!" - July 1, 2010

Thanks for clarifying the voting scale. I thought it was by ranking so I originally voted “9”…..meaning out of 11 movies, I ranked it almost at the bottom. It sure as heck wasn’t a 9 on a scale of 10.

(Boy is my face red.)

224. Vultan - July 1, 2010


Hey, pal, not all of us fall into your neat little categories.

I was born in ’83 (after Star Wars), grew up watching A-team, and now enjoy watching films like “North by Northwest,” “Father Goose,” and “Arsenic and Old Lace.” And I like Star Trek V! Not as good as the other TOS movies, but I do enjoy it a lot more than Trek ’09. Sorry, Bob.

Oh, and I also read books.

225. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

I remember watching ST V for perhaps the second time on home video and thinking that if I could make about ten edits to the film, knowing exactly where to cut and splice, that I could make the film more tolerable. Uhura’s fan dance wouldn’t have been out, along with Scotty hitting his head on that beam and knocking himself out; the whole Uhura fawning all over and making passes at Scotty likewise would have been excised, to name just a few of the things that I personally had zeroed in on for elimination at the time, BUT I would have left the campfire scene in because it had some of the best character interaction that had been seen among those three men in a long time despite Kirk and McCoy’s rendition of “Row, row, row your boat . . . ” Regardless of how the critics torpedoed that particular scene, I actually enjoyed it.

Jack Marshall told me earlier this year that he was considering re-editing the film, only this time for Widescreen. I hope he decides to follow through on that particular consideration.

226. Forrest - July 2, 2010

“We made the mistake of searching for god. That is what the first movie did. What did we think we were going to find?”

Evidently Ralph Winter never read THE WOUNDED SKY (1983).

227. www.chrisfawkes.com - July 2, 2010

@ 175
You never saw any of the next gen movies? Trek had been screwed up for many years.

Despite what you think most consider that the new trek actually comes back to the true sense of the original.

So your points become void. Nothing more than spilling emotion because nothing you say can beat the fact that the movie was a major success.

228. philpot - July 2, 2010

ST09 had a few homages to TFF (i think)

Kirk hitting his head on a low beam

Uhura dating one of the bridge crew

Kirk catching Sulu (like Spock catching Kirk)

229. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#227: “Despite what you think most consider that the new trek actually comes back to the true sense of the original.”

I’d be interested in seeing the scientific polling data you’re not referring to.

230. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010


I’d add to your list:

Having one really emotional, genuinely moving sequence that seems almost entirely out of step with the tone of the rest of the film.

231. P Technobabble - July 2, 2010

I wonder what some people mean by “thought-provoking?” For me, there have been films like “2001,” which left me contemplating certain matters for some time after seeing them. But such films tend to be somewhat ambiguous and leave room for plenty of interpretation. Most other films, on the other hand, are pretty straight-forward and direct. What you see is what is meant is what you get.
In this sense, I don’t find other Trek films to be more “thought-provoking” than Trek09. People seem to use TWOK as the standard against which all Trek films must measure up to, but I didn’t find anything particularly thought-provoking about that film. TWOK had humor, space-battles, and death. Trek09 had humor, space-battles, and death (and it had hand-to-hand combat, which TWOK didn’t!). I understand that some people would not like “Star Trek,” but to say that it is not a good film, or that it has somehow ruined the franchise is simply unfounded.
I also believe comparing “Star Trek” with past films, or even the tv series, is unfair, because all of those other products were made by different people. So, comparing Abrams’ Trek with other Treks is like comparing VOY with TOS… it may still be Star Trek, but those shows are nothing alike. If you compared Harve Bennett’s work on Treks II, III and IV with his work on V, you’d wonder how the same person could be responsible. So, I believe the new film IS Star Trek — it is simply not like previous Treks. Why some people have such a problem with that is… illogical.

232. Damian - July 2, 2010

#228–I don’t know if those were conscious homages to Star Trek V. There is so much Star Trek now (over 1000 hours) that you could probably say 3/4 of the movie is a homage to some previous show, movie or episode. I don’t think you could avoid it at this point.

Star Trek V has good and bad. It was a disappointment in the sense that they were riding high after Star Trek IV, and there was a lot of potential int he story. It was still Star Trek to me. There was enough in it to hold it together. Despite what others have said, esp. regarding Spock’s hesitation in shooting Sybok, Spock and McCoy ultimately stood by Kirk in the end. Scotty never turned and as for Uhura, Chekov and Sulu, they bought into the dream Sybok was selling. Sybok was not trying to destroy the ship or kill anyone, he was trying to find God. I never felt they betrayed Kirk, because he was never in any danger of being killed or hurt by Sybok. Sybok believed he was helping the people he was manipulating. The novel really does a much better job of explaining some of the motives behind the characters.

Ultimately, even with its flaws, I consider Star Trek V to be part of the story of Star Trek, and don’t see any problems or inconsistencies with doing so. It is my least favority of the 11, but one of them has to be.

233. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010


You make some good points, though I’ll direct you to “Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home”. In that film, it was man who was the bad guy. The theme of the movie was about how man hunting whales was condemning his own future. It touched on environmentalism and obviously got a lot of people thinking about something that is still relevent today.

#228, 232

I believe that the scene featuring Kirk hitting his head on beam was a reference to Scotty knocking himself out after walking into a pipe.
The others mentioned were most likely coincidental.

234. Red Skirt - July 2, 2010

#231 – “thought provoking”: How about there were meaningful exchanges of dialogue between the characters that allowed the audience to see them grow in TWOK, and think about how it related to themselves. Instead of merely kissing Spock’s pain away in the elevator, perhaps this movie could have paused for a “minute” to search the souls of these characters. But that never happened. It was all ‘splosions, fisticuffs and slapstick, as you astutely point out. The best of this movie was in the opening 10 minutes, and sadly that level of cognitive provocation would not be achieved again, though it arguably came close in the I dare you to do better speech. But that’s how I saw it. Perhaps it doesn’t take as much for others.

235. star trackie - July 2, 2010

If you had enjoyed nothing but a steady diet of TNG or the TOS movies before you saw Trek 5, then I can understand the disconnect. But if you had watched…and ENJOYED….TOS for years prior to seeing Trek 5, then you really should understand the show and shouldn’t find, aside from some technical blunders, any huge problems with the movie. It does play like an updated TOS episode. That is the highest compliment, not a problem.

236. Buzz Cagney - July 2, 2010

#234 to be honest if Trek ’09 maintained throughout the same level of emotion it jammed into the first 10 minutes i think I’d have needed some psychiatric help by the time it ended!
For my money they got the balance just about right.
I do wonder, though, why the death of Amanda didn’t seem to generate the emotion that George’s did. After all, we knew her very well. George, not at all. I can only assume it was because he gave his life so heroically and Amanda was kind of cynically (sorry Bob) bumped off.

237. V'Ger23 - July 2, 2010



Kirk’s moment of clarity in the bar with Pike…not “thought provoking” and/ or comparable with TWOK character scenes?

Kirk’s exchange with Spock in the hearing for cheating on the K.M. test…not “thought provoking” or comparable with TWOK character scenes?

Spock’s scene with his mother, expressing his own form of guilt or regret for choosing the Vulcan path over her heritage…not “thought provoking” or comparable with TWOK character scenes?

Spock and Sarek talking in the transporter room about the death of Amanda….not “thought provoking” or comparable with TWOK character scenes?

Kirk’s subtle character development throughout the film…not “thought provoking” or comparable with TWOK character scenes?

Spock Prime’s meld and subsequent discussion with Kirk?

Spock Prime and NuSpock meeting in the hanger?

Kirk and Spock, after warring through much of the film, coming to mutually respect and trust one another?

I mean…I love how some people just blindly pretend that the movie just “TOTALLY WICKED SUCKED” because it suits their argument…but the reality of it is that MOST of the things in Trek 09 were present in the “best” of the TOS Trek films and series (goofy humor, action / adventure, lots of little character moments).

I am thankful to the creative team that they put out something that was designed to ENTERTAIN me rather than to blandly and ham-handedly PREACH to me (like the last 15 years of Trek did).

Bravo Bob O, JJ, and everyone else.

238. Buzz Cagney - July 2, 2010

#237 well said.
I’ve really enjoyed this thread. Excellent stuff.

239. P Technobabble - July 2, 2010

234. and 236. and 237.

I tend to agree that “Star Trek” did, in fact, have enough “thought-provoking” moments, and I don’t know what more, or in what manner would have been more satisfactory… I don’t think Uhura just “kissed Spock’s pain away,” she tried to talk to him, to reach him, but – being Spock – he was not about to show his emotions; I also found the scene between Sarek and Spock, after Amanda’s death, to be rather emotional between two men who deny their emotions — and i think we learned that there is more to a Vulcan than just logic. And I wasn’t implying that “splosions, fisticuffs and slapstick” were all there was to “Star Trek.” No, the point I was making is that it had these things just as TWOK did. I think TWOK comes off looking more “thoughtful” because it is a much slower-paced film.
I think there are a number of people who will criticize the crap out of the movie, then turn around and say they enjoyed it, then start criticizing again, and so forth. The movie is what it is, over a year later, so I think folks should either enjoy it or forget about it.

240. P Technobabble - July 2, 2010

…oh, forgot to add In My Opinion…

241. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

#235. star trackie
“If you had enjoyed nothing but a steady diet of TNG or the TOS movies before you saw Trek 5, then I can understand the disconnect. But if you had watched…and ENJOYED….TOS for years prior to seeing Trek 5, then you really should understand the show and shouldn’t find, aside from some technical blunders, any huge problems with the movie. It does play like an updated TOS episode. That is the highest compliment, not a problem.”

Well, it had some annoying things going on in it that weren’t really consistent with the original series, such as the annoying pitchman on the monitor that Shatner saw fit to throw in there, perhaps to sell himself to interested parties that might be interested in acquiring his services as a pitchman after seeing the film (Hello, Priceline!), and the dancing cat woman on the bar –all utterly ridiculous and annoying. They also felt, following ST IV, that humor was also a way to go, so we got ridiculous attempts at humor, such as Scotty banging his head on the beam right after saying “I know this ship like the back of my hand!” and other ridiculous moments along such lines. So there were things included in the film that were out and out poor choices, and I think people were very sensitive to that–along with other problems like the cheesy special effects (yes, Kirk falling from el Capitan was a horrible sequence visually speaking), so there were a lot of ‘defects’ in the film that people had to overlook, and many just couldn’t apparently. But as a “Star Trek” story –I agree with your assessment. I think that’s why Jack Marshall’s editing it into a television episode complete with music tracks lifted right from the original series inserted in various places within his cut help to reflect the extent to which it was in essence a classical TOS “Star Trek” story in a sense.

242. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

#232. Damian
“Ultimately, even with its flaws, I consider Star Trek V to be part of the story of Star Trek, and don’t see any problems or inconsistencies with doing so.”

Well, they were really stretching it with Sybok as Spock’s half-brother –a sibling we had never even heard about and had no hint of previously. I liked the character, but he could have been a close friend of Spock’s from his past, even his childhood, who was later vanquished and exiled by his people, but making him another son of Sarek was simply going too far –and Nimoy should have had the sense to put the brakes on that, although the Writers strike at the time might have gotten in the way of his doing that …but I doubt he even considered raising it as an issue at the time.

“It is my least favority of the 11, but one of them has to be.”

TMP is my least favorite because of the extent to which it drags. The story was subpar for a big screen outing, especially for a series that was trying to transition from the small screen to the big screen for the first time; they should have known better than to try and do what they had done with that script, particularly since the studio had decided to try and capitalize on the popularity of the “Star Wars” craze by moving it to the big screen, so it was an utter disaster on so many levels. However, at the very least, they could have edited that picture down and streamlined it so that it wouldn’t have been so terribly boring, while still including some of the stunning visual sequences that were a part of the film.

243. misterpow - July 2, 2010

For me Trek V is one of the Trek movies I can watch repeatedly without getting distracted (along with II and VI – yeah occasionally IV drags a bit for me). Like many fans have pointed out it’s the film that comes closest to capturing the feel of the original series and it always makes me smile. The score is one of the best for the franchise, the interplay between Kirk, Spock and McCoy is spot on and DeForest Kelleys performance in the McCoy/ Father death scene is an incredible moment and shows what a brilliant actor De was (his cameo in Encounter at Farpoint is the highlight of 1st season Next Gen – that guy could really deliver the emotion in just a few words.) Who knows: in a few years time, when Paramount want more of your money, they might lock a guy in a room with a laptop, tell him to produce some decent CGI effects and repackage Trek V – The Ultimate Special Super Dooper Ka-Ching Edition!

244. Illogical - July 2, 2010

Everytime I try and vote on a Poll I get this:
You Had Already Voted For This Poll. Poll ID #600
I’ve never voted in any of the polls prior to this so why do I always get this message? I also can never see the poll results.

245. Illogical - July 2, 2010

Looks like it might be an AOL thing. Yes, I still use AOL :^/

246. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#237: “I mean…I love how some people just blindly pretend that the movie just “TOTALLY WICKED SUCKED” because it suits their argument…”

Hm. I liked the film just fine, so I can’t speak for those who think it totally wicked sucked, but they’re not “blindly” “suiting” things to their “argument;” they’re expressing their tastes, which differ from yours.

247. Anthony Pascale - July 2, 2010

AOL uses shared IP addresses, nothing we can do about that. And why would you still be using AOL?

248. kmart - July 2, 2010


Your ‘examples’ … put them in the context of that story (such as it is), and they don’t play half as credibly as the ones in real TOS series and films.

The Abrams just carried little credibility in its presentation for me … so much seemed like lip service to the notion of TOS Trek, and condescending as hell.

249. keenan bryson - July 2, 2010

ST:V was OK. On the very lower levels of OK. The best part about the movie was Kirk/Spock/McCoy; the relationships between them were really fleshed out in this one. The “peace planet”….Horrible. The search for God, wasn’t a bad idea; I think it was a good one. They went to the edge of the Universe and found an imprisoned being that decided to mess with the trio. The effects were bad but not the absolute worst. Rock monsters would have made the ending MUCH better. Think of the rock alien in Galaxy Quest, wouldn’t that be cool if they did that for a re-edit? The movie had a good message and the Kirk/Spock./McCoy friendship through the whole movie was the best out of the whole franchise. A re-edit and some CG rock monsters, a little CG Kirk fighting them, and a little more “God” power could save this film historically as a good movie. I hope the Facebook petition gains steam.

250. Steamblade - July 2, 2010


There’s no reason to pretend, it did. However, even in a disaster there are going to be likable moments: Spock’s FU to the council (although they seem to have no concept of IDIC), most of the casting, despite the hack job to the characters and Keenser, he didn’t bother me. Your “thought provoking” moments certainly didn’t resonate for me. And you are right, nothing so lacking in depth or conviction could ever PREACH to you, to say nothing of making you think period.

251. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#248, #250:

What you guys said.

Some of those scenes felt to me like they were approaching parody.

There were times when I believed. Greenwood inhabited his Pike character in a way that entirely convinced me and appealed to me … but still, never a word out of his mouth was “thought-provoking” in any charitable sense of the term. Lots of the movie provoked thought, but not in a way that was thought-provoking :)


Some rock monsters wouldn’t hurt, to be sure. Not sure how much they’d help, but they wouldn’t hurt.

And as far as what was (presumably) on the page, I agree that STV had some solid trinity material … but on the screen, it seemed instead to be about the relationship between Spock, McCoy, and William Shatner.

252. boborci - July 2, 2010

251. S. John Ross – July 2, 2010

Cite your most thought provoking movie trek moment, if you would indulge me.

253. boborci - July 2, 2010

and thanks, V’Ger23. If you are getting multiple responses, you r doing something right;)

254. boborci - July 2, 2010

252. boborci – July 2, 2010

From the movies!

255. SpockOut - July 2, 2010

Mr. Orci – You’ve handled critism on here very well. I think you’re awesome how you take it in stride and give decent responses. I loved Star Trek ’09 and the first Transformers.

My critism of Transformers 2 is very light. It appears you were going for more action, which you guys accomplished. The one thing I was disappointed with was the “American Pie” style humor – the pot references and so fourth. I remember Transformers as something I watched as a kid. It seemed a bit mature for the franchise in my opinion.

I enjoyed Star Trek V. The effects were better than most for the time. The other movies did have better visuals but V wasn’t as horrible as people make it out to be on here. I think people are used to television shows having superior effects these days. I thought the movie started out really strong, could of been epic, then fizzled. Big ideas need big budgets. In the end it was worth a afternoon at the movies.

256. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010


I don’t mind the indulgence, but I consider Star Trek to be pretty thought-provoking stuff much of the time, so that’s akin to asking me my favorite [insert thing where I have hundreds of “favorites”].

Thanks for, at least, narrowing it down to the movies; that’ll help! But I’ll give it a bit of thought, rather than just off-the-cuffing it.

257. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#254 You said “movie Trek” the first time; no worries :)

258. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010

The term “thought-provoking” is a bit vague because it depends on one’s tastes and perspectives. As well as one’s definition of “thought provoking”.
Some people found nothing thought provoking about the new “Star Trek”, while many others, inluding myself, found a few thought provoking scenes. The first ten minutes I felt were classic Trek at its best. I also felt emotionally involved in that scene when George Kirk sacrifices himself for his wife and newborn son. Often, for me at least, “thought provoking” also includes emotional resonance. Spock’s death was another example.
I felt sadness and also thought how important Spock was to Kirk.

“First Contact” was also thought and emotion provoking for me. One gets a sense of the torment that Picard had to deal with after his ordeal at the hands of the Borg. I really felt something when I saw Picard kill Borg (some of whom were his own crewmen who were assimilated) in cold blood. On the flip side, the scenes on Earth featuring Zefram Cochrane brought to mind Gene Roddenberry. Someone who was a visionary, and a genius while still having flaws. The movie had its moments of dread, horror and darkness from within, but also had a message of hope and survival.

To me, the best “thought provoking” moments also include emotional resonance. The best movies and episodes had those qualities.

259. Vultan - July 2, 2010



I know your question was directed at someone else, but I’d like to say my favorite thought-provoking moment in Trek is at the climax of TMP. The whole notion of a machine seeking its creator and the parallels of man doing the same (something Trek V bravely, albeit clumsily attempted) and the final irony of man being such a creator and only when man joins with its creation that it can reach a higher level of being—well, it’s a beautiful moment. And it’s one of the few times Trek can launch my brain into warp speed instead of just my eyes.

PS: And, yes to all you nitpickers out there, I know the movie is just a remake of “The Changeling,” but I love it nonetheless.

260. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010

And oh yeah, “The Final Frontier” had many thought-provoking moments. Its why, while being one of the weakest Trek movies, its still better than a lot of crap on tv and the big screen these days. The scenes featuring Kirk, Spock and McCoy make the movie worth watching. And makes it a lot better than “Transformers”, in my opinion. Sorry Bob! :-)

261. Boborci - July 2, 2010


Ha! Appreciate your fair judgment. One day I’ll write a book about how Tf2 ended up the way it did (or chapter in a book, at least).

262. Boborci - July 2, 2010

255. Agree about the humor. We argued with Bay endlessly. Our scripted humor was much subtle.

263. Boborci - July 2, 2010

259. Agreed. Hard to top that!

264. Vultan - July 2, 2010


Thanks. I know the movie isn’t the most exciting, but at least it was trying for something higher in the 2001 Space Odyssey sort of way. Few science fiction and fantasy films today (besides maybe Moon and District 9) seem to be reaching for that plateau.

265. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010


Who (except studios) needs Michael Bay anyway?

You have J.J, Alex and Damon. But just as importantly, you have us, the fans, who are also your internet friends!

266. Vultan - July 2, 2010


Ever see the ending of Disney’s “The Black Hole?” Perhaps Bay could be trapped inside a laugh track machine for all of eternity.

267. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#258: “The term “thought-provoking” is a bit vague because it depends on one’s tastes and perspectives. As well as one’s definition of “thought provoking”.”

That was precisely my point in post #246; total agree.

#252: “Cite your most thought provoking movie trek moment, if you would indulge me.”

Okay, I’m really not trying to weasel out of your very reasonable request, I’m just terrible at “favorites” in general (for me, “favorite” is a category more than something hung ’round the neck of a single winner) and I really can’t boil it down to a single one. But, in hopes of productive response, some contenders by _category, ordered from least to most important to me as a viewer:

For Trekthink/Mythology: Some bits in STVI that suggest that Starfleet, at this point in the “bridge” between TOS and TNG, exists more for a military role than an exploratory one (something I don’t buy for TOS or TNG, and that feels very limited to the “movie era”) – that it is what it is because of the looming shadow of the Klingons. This sparked some really meaty dialogues among the local fen that branched out into lots of things I like (or not so much) about the setting becoming very clear, so it gets the “for Trekthink” award.

For Real-World Macro Stuff: When the Klingons spoke of a “Genesis Torpedo” this lit a bulb in my little middle-school brain, which had spent very little time pondering the relationship between the advance of knowledge and the potential for greater destruction (I knew about Nobel, but I was too busy being a kid to, until that moment, really ponder it). That moment made me really do so for the first time, really opened my kid-eyes to an important real-world dilemma about the double-edged nature of new knowledge.

For Real-World People Stuff: This one’s pretty hands-down for the revelation of Kirk’s relationship with Carol Marcus and his unknown son. Not just because it humanized Kirk in a whole new way that felt really believable for the character, but also because it helped me put some perspective on something a friend of mine was going through at home (I grew up a Marine brat, so a lot of my friends had “broken” homes to some extent and one buddy in particular was dealing with a Dad who’d just learned about _him_).

For Raw Emotion: Not so much thought-provoking as feeling-provoking, but included for honorable mention (and topicality), honestly, Leonard McCoy getting back to basic-basic (or whatever it was meant to be, his “secret pain”) just totally nailed me to my seat in the theater and played me like a fiddle. I think it was mainly in Kelly’s performance; his pauses, his expression seemed to speak volumes about things felt, unsaid, or regretted.

And I hope any impression that I’m singling out Trek09 with barbs is taken in the context of a site largely devoted to your film. I think VI’s attempts at political allegory are ham-handed and a little embarrassing, for example (and see above for my take on V) – it’s not just you guys, it’s just that this site is, more often than not, about you guys.

(and further apologies for not being able to cite scene and line … I’m at my usual bar doing my usual work on a little eeePC and don’t have a Trek movie library handy, so this is all from-memory stuff over a long swig of Diet Coke) :)

And oh my, the question being limited to the films was absolutely essential. For the series I wouldn’t even have been able to break it down into categories, there’s just so much.

Anyway, whatever point you wanted to build on my response, I hope I’ve provided you sufficient leverage.

268. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010


Never seen that movie. I would suggest sending Michael Bay into a real black hole, but none have the gravitational pull great enough to suck in his big ego!

269. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

#256. S. John Ross
“I don’t mind the indulgence, but I consider Star Trek to be pretty thought-provoking stuff much of the time”

:::Cough!::: :::Cough!!::: …”Spock’s Brain” . . .

270. Harry Ballz - July 2, 2010


Well, it provoked your remark, didn’t it?

271. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#270: That, or the phrase “much of the time” is somehow confusing :)

272. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

#259. Vultan
“PS: And, yes to all you nitpickers out there, I know the movie is just a remake of “The Changeling,” but I love it nonetheless.”

I don’t think it’s a matter of being “a nitpicker” when it comes to TMP because the movie was so terribly flawed overall, but the ending of the film is a classic “Star Trek” moment, all flaws aside, and I can understand why it would have resonated for a lot of people. It’s just that getting there was so damn grueling, and the picture wasn’t edited well at all originally. A much better job was done when they finally released the Special Director’s Cut, which was remastered and featured all new special effects, but even there they made the mistake of not shortening the picture. It should have been cut to under two hours in my opinion, and it would have been a tighter movie that held together better in spite of its flaws.

273. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

LOL! Yeah, I guess so apparently . . . .

274. boborci - July 2, 2010

267. S. John Ross – July 2, 2010

Not trying to trap you. Genuinely curious, and thanks for your response.

Happy 4th.

275. StarFuryG7 - July 2, 2010

271. S. John Ross
“#270: That, or the phrase “much of the time” is somehow confusing :)”

Very funny –I was simply making the point that Trek obviously had its share of duds too, especially if you include the later shows.

To me, it’s an absolute outrage that “Voyager” even has the “Star Trek” name attached to it.

276. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010

StarFuryG7’s post is an example of why one should read the entire statement before quoting, answering and posting it.

Today’s lesson in “Quoting, Answering and Posting 101″!

277. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#274: “Genuinely curious, and thanks for your response.”

Okeydokey. It was fun writing it.

278. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#275: “Very funny”

Very frequently. ;)

“To me, it’s an absolute outrage that “Voyager” even has the “Star Trek” name attached to it.”

I don’t care enough about it to consider it an outrage, but I agree that it’s one of those things unworthy of the trademarks the suits stapled onto it.

279. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010

Harry Ballz (if you are still sober/awake)

What was your favorite “thought provoking” Trek moment(s)?

280. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#279: Ooh, I second that. Harry’s one of the groovier posters around here; I’d love to hear his, too. And where’s Red Skirt when we need her? [climbs to the top of Police HQ to light up the Red Skirt Signal against the glowering clouds above Gotham … is puzzled to see that it resembles the Thundercats logo].

281. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2010


Everyone everywhere stops everything they are doing when Harry posts:-)

282. S. John Ross - July 2, 2010

#281: Including posting, apparently; we seem to have killed the thread :)

Harry, it’s all up to you!

283. Red Dead Ryan - July 3, 2010

Haaarrry….Haaarrrry…..HAARRRRYYY! Where are you?

HARRY!! (Echoes reverberate ad nauseum)

Then dead silence, only a few crickets chirping, a tumbleweed rolls by

BLAM! (Sound of a shotgun being fired by some old man)


Runs, hears dogs barking as they persue….

284. philpot - July 3, 2010

regarding thought provoking in ST movies, off hand id say stuff like:

-V’ger being revealed as Voyager 6, the whole searching for its creator thing (although as im sure most would agree it was abit of a tedious hard slog getting there)

-Genesis as a terraforming device but also a WOMD…the genesis cave (ok matte paintings but we get the impression of what it does)…plus Davids tinkering around with the matrix creating an unstable world…

-Khans brain bugs/ Spocks caskets microbes -they were something really ‘alien’ – got me thinking about just what kind of truly alien life is out there

-Khan himself – the hints that hes a result of genetic engineering – obviously this was explored more in Space Seed, but the way in which it was revealed in TWOK was very interesting (especially for someone who was a trek newbie) – the hints of his past on earth, his madness as a result of being a product of GE (as well as being marooned)

-space stuff like the multara nebula, and the regular moon, the genesis science labs — really created the impression it was all happening in deep space, stuff you see on covers of astronomy magazines etc the characters dealing with it in an everyday way, really brought home they were really astronauts in deep space -often is easy to forget that when watching star trek (First Contact humourosly nods to this)

-Federation technology like the Mushroom spacedock – it really created the impression that this thing must be MASSIVE to dwarf the enterprise and house all the ships..the sheer scale of it really brought home that we were hundreds of years in the future..(obviously TOS was similar in this respect and the same goes for the point above, but lacked the budget and grandness to properly show it realistically)

-Vulcan mysticism- the whole katra thing, the soul never dies etc

-the whale probe – where it came from, who sent it etc – its good that those questions wernt answered as sometimes stuff like that is best left to the imagination (with just the odd hint) which is far more powerful than any explanation the film maker can give – see also the ark angels in Raiders, the ‘interdimentional beings’ and the portal to the other dimention in Crystal Skull, ‘Hell’ in Event Horizon, the space jocky in Alien (which unfortunatly looks as if it will be explored in the new prequels), 2001/2010s monolith, the Black Hole, the last shot of ‘The Quiet Earth,’ the Rabbits Foot in MI3, the Highlander immortals (without the silly HL2 spacemen explanation), the terraforming Total Recall aliens, certain elements of the Matrix (until the sequels spoiled it all), the force in SW:OT etc etc

-Search for God – ok obviously Trek V dropped the ball on this in the way it was done but the premise was undeniably intriguing …Indiana Kirk and the Quest for God

-the nexus – the concept of the nexus and the way Guinen describes it as a ‘doorway to another place…a place of bliss etc’ …could the nexus be a portal/gateway to heaven?

-the briar patch – as much as i dislike Insurrection , the area of space that gives a time slowing effect was pretty interesting

-ST09s opening – really gave the impression we were in deep space, pretty much the embodiment of everything TOS was: the Kelvin alone in deep space, where even the radio connection to Starfleet is spotty, coming across a gigantic monster of a ship and no one around to help. very early Trek TOS and Twilight Zoney

-Alternate realities/QM/MW – the theories have been about for years but i think ST09 really brought it to the forefront, showing that traditional ‘BTTF style’ timetravel isnt the only way to think about what could happen…

-Red Matter, ok i know it was the macguffin needed in order to restart TOS but just what is it? how does it work? where did it come from? one crazy theory i heard was that it was blood!

anyway im hoping the sequel has similar thought provoking stuff like that – id especially like to see something mysterious that fires up the imagination like the whale probe, the monolith or end of Raiders (not the entire movie dealing with that like TMP/TFF – but something like that in the background that gets dealt with amdist all the action and stuff)

285. philpot - July 3, 2010

btw (as you probably guessed) i was focusing purely on Sci Fi stuff in relation to thought provoking in the ST movies ..

286. P Technobabble - July 3, 2010

My thought-provoking moments:
TMP – Spock expresses V’Ger’s quest – “Is this all that I am? Is there nothing more?” which turns out to be Spock’s – and our – quest, as well.
TWOK – McCoy asks (referring to Genesis): “Dear lord, do you think we’re intelligent enough –?” Does incredible technology become incredibly dangerous in our hands?
TSFS – Kirk tells Sarek he had to save Spock. Sarek asks, “But at what cost? Your ship… your son…” Kirk says, “If I hadn’t tried, the cost would have been my soul.” When someone is truly important to us, how far are we willing to go?
TVH – Spock says, “To hunt a species to extinction is not logical.” Taylor responds, “Whoever said the human race was logical.” Is our illogical nature bound to lead to our destruction?
TFF – McCoy asks, “Do you think God is really out there?” Kirk responds, “Maybe he’s not out there… maybe he’s right here (points to his heart)…” Where is God if not “within” us?
TUC – Kirk says, “How can history ever get past people like us?” If we are unwilling to let go of the past, how do we evolve?
ST – Sarek tells Spock, “I married her because I loved her.” Love is greater than anything, including logic.
I could find others, but these stick out for me.

287. Paul The ILM Fan - July 3, 2010

Trek V is nowhere near as bad as many deluded people here claim.

Its as someone else said earlier a widescreen big budget TOS episode.

The story tone is the closest to TOS episodes the movies ever got.

There is a lot to like:

Goldsmith hits it into interstellar space with an amazing score which is still one of his very best.

Set designs were pretty decent compared to the very low budget stuff on Treks 2-4. Enterprise Bridge, Observation lounge, Turboshaft & Engineering were all well made/expensive sets.

Kirk/Spock/McCoy were absolutely magic & on fire together. Perfect chemistry could not be bettered. Kelley was given some killer personal scenes which he totally nailed. Nimoy was just on auto pilot but still gave us some fun Spock moments & Shatner showed us why he was always the main star with his chemistry, power & subtle humour.

The movie was very ambitious & clearly hurt by budget cuts which happened after the Paramount realised it was going to cost a lot more money than they were prepared to invest (Despite ST4 making the most there was a line Paramount was not prepared to cross with regards to Trek budgets as they were always kept low to maximise profits as in those days outside of the US only UK & Germany were big Trek movie markets it was practically ignored elsewhere!). 1988 writers strike also hurt the story as it reduced the time to polish it.

Sure there are also some super lame decisions most of which were dictated by the producers to save money like Enterprise not working properly was a VFX money saving plot point to avoid filming expensive motion control (which at the time only ILM/Boss/Apogee or Dreamquest could do properly with such a difficult to light model like the Enterprise).

Winter is clearly having selective (vger!!) memory here as he went on record in Starlog for the ST6 press stating that not using ILM for ST5 was one of the worse decisions made & it was all about budget & not having the ILM staff they wanted as they were busy on: Indy3, Ghostbusters, The Abyss & Back To The Future 2 +3. Its also clearly on record that Paramount were always trying to get Trek VFX for much less than what the going rate was so often ILM were asked to film sequences which could be re-cut & re-used so VFX budget to Paramount was always on all Trek movies a major issue and why so many things got done the way they did.

I’m glad Winter has finally admitted not using ILM was his decision as for many years this was what anyone who understood the production history of ST5 already knew anyway but even now he does not want to take all the blame & attempts to paint ILM as the bad guy (wonder why he has not used them since 1991!!!!).

ST5 would definately be enhanced with decent/modern CGI work & they could even restore some of the original concepts like the powers of ten opening (which Contact used several years later as its a common concept when you need to demonstrate the vastness of interstellar Space). For sure the TOS actors getting $14M of the budget left little to make a movie as the key sets were also expensive so not enough was left to construct a more mainstream & professional film.

Blame Winter for the VFX

Shatner/Nimoy for taking $5.5M each

Bennett for not managing the production better

& Paramount for not delaying the movie to at least reshoot most if not all the VFX which would have given the movie a chance at making $80m ish like 2&3 did as there was still a big maket for a solid TOS movie back then.

Compare Trek5 to total dross like ST9 or ST11 (ST10 is not even that bad compared to those movies!!) & notice that 5 has more trek humanity/humour in its first 20 mins that 9+11 contain in their entire running lenght!

288. Harry Ballz - July 3, 2010


Aw, thanks for the compliments, folks!

Thought-provoking moments in Trek movies? Well, let’s see, being 55 and having seen every one of the movies during it’s “first run” at the theatre, some of my initial impressions back then were:

TWOK-Spock’s death…I know it’s been discussed ad naseum over the years, but back in 1982, watching it for the first time, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was relieved in the months to come to hear that everyone else had the same reaction!

TSFS-while Kirk and crew steal the Enterprise, when Stiles comes over the intercom channel and quietly intones, “Kirk, you do this, you’ll never sit in the Captain’s chair again!” The delivery of that line really sold it to the audience how much Kirk was risking. Loved it!

TSFS-not so much “thought-provoking”, but thrilling to watch was Kirk finally killing an opponent (kicking the Klingon to his death) and then picking up Spock and managing to escape from the doomed planet by mimicking the Klingon phrase for “beam me up!” over the communicator. Clever!

Trek 09- yes, the new movie. Months before it’s release, I was lucky enough to trade a few quips back and forth here with Bob Orci. During one of our exchanges, I told Bob that I define a great movie by how many “tingle” moments it has, namely a part in the film that really “jazzes” you. He promised me there were “a dozen” such moments in the new film. I thought that was a bit of a stretch on his part, but you know what? When I went to see the movie, being an old Trekker since September 1966, I WAS AMAZED AT THE WHOLE TONE OF HOW RIGHT THEY GOT IT AND HOW MUCH FUN I WAS HAVING WATCHING IT! Ten minutes in to watching it, my face was hurting a bit and I then realized it was because I was grinning so hard from ear to ear. The Trek I fell in love with when young was back again! I know some of you don’t agree with that opinion, but that is my sincere take on it.

Can some of you expand on your best “moments” in the films?

289. DeShon Steinblatt - July 3, 2010

Was there a single second of “thought provoking” in First Contact? Or any of the TNG movies, for that matter?

290. Author of The Vulcan Neck Pinch for Fathers - July 3, 2010


The Reader’s Digest version of your post is, in effect “the VFX would have saved it.”


Trek V sucked because its underlying story was horrendous. There were moments. VFX for Trek V is lipstick on a pig.

We thought surely that no one would make the mistake of having a creature seek out “god” after having done it in TOS (The Changeling) and AGAIN in TMP (which was a rehash of Changeling), but they did, and it the result was just as abysmal. And the notion of Spock jumping alliances to a long-lost brother doesn’t even pass the sniff test. That it plays out more like a TOS episode is faint praise for a multi-million-dollar motion picture.

I’ll grant you that there were some character moments in TVH, but they cannot possibly overcome the backdrop of the contemptible story. The VFX weren’t the problem with TVH – they were emblematic of it. Whatever the politics that prevented ILM from doing the work, it was inexcusable.

291. Harry Ballz - July 3, 2010



292. pock peared - July 3, 2010

most thought provoking moments for me:

TMP: the vulcan shuttle flip when docking the ent: it was the first time in trek that gravity was represented outside of “two dimensional thinking” on screen. it put me in space, finally. also: the transporter malfunction. those screams and the dialog really suggested that the transporter was a machine, not a plot device.
and lastly, spock’s tears.

TWoK: kirk as absent father. i was also provoked to wonder how kristie looked under that uniform.

TSFS: pon far, or trek’s first “cougar” moment. what teen wouldn’t want to lose it to a hot vulcan woman? this provoked many thoughts at the time, sleezy ones.

TVH: time travel sequence: that shit was trippy and sweet, the blending of the crew and the quiet water sequence was lovely and suggested some very deep thought about passing through time. a standout in trek imagery.

TFF: provoked me to think only once: regarding the “hole farmer” in the opening and when he said “they’re all i have”. i have repeated this line to myself many times as a way of not taking my life or art too seriously.

TUC: valeris as the culprit: using logic as a validation for murder was difficult for me, but after i thought about it, it suggested how many actually do this all the time.

the TNG films: provoked me to a.) think of leaving the theater b.) think of giving up on trek forever, and c.) provoked me to wish for a film that returned to TOS.

ST: at it’s heart, provoked much consideration on how people become the people they are (and how a deeply disturbed future romulan might impact the characters we know). really, the most fun part about the film for me was witnessing how each of them were unformed until they became a crew. also, breaking the rules by having an old man meet himself as a young man (and vice versa) and the dramatic way it was written. (thanks b’orci)

293. pock peared - July 3, 2010

most thought provoking moment on this site:
wondering what “captain_neil” thinks of the new film. he is strangely silent about it. also; does anthony cringe as much as i do?

294. Buzz Cagney - July 3, 2010

#288 Harry, I totally agree with you re-Trek ’09.
Some brief thoughts on the movies.

TMP- I enjoyed it. Twice as i recall. I was just thrilled to have Trek back and man, didn’t it look great. I don’t think the story generated any real thoughts in me (i was 14!) beyond joy at having Trek back. I’m afraid I have rose-tinted specs where original Trek is concerned and don’t do criticism of TMP very well. i know I didn’t see Star Wars out of some sense of loyalty to Trek and here was my pay-off! I may have been a bit short-changed with hindsight. But i didn’t care. lol

TWOK- Just brilliant. I can still remember the walk home after seeing it for the first time. I was so charged-up emotionally i think. Senses heightened and all that.

TSFS- I can remember turning to my friend just as the movie started and saying ‘we’re here at last’. The two year wait to see how Spock was being ‘saved’ was finally over.
‘Jim, your name is Jim’. That line still has the ability to tear me up! And I don’t mind admitting it.

I won’t go on. I’ll post a few more thoughts later. If you are still interested, Harry!

295. Harry Ballz - July 3, 2010

Buzz, those are some great points! You’re right about TSFS, where at the end Spock says, “Jim, your name is Jim”. That WAS a great moment.

Isn’t it interesting that none of TNG films even come to mind….

296. S. John Ross - July 3, 2010

#295: “… where at the end Spock says, “Jim, your name is Jim”. That WAS a great moment.”

Truly, although if we go into “great moments” or even just specifically “emotional moments,” we’ll need a whole new thread for that.

297. Boborci - July 3, 2010

296. Agreed.

298. Capes - July 3, 2010

My two cents…….

In TSFS when Sulu announced that they had cleared space dock with their stolen starship, the theater erupted with cheers, and applause (mine included). I was 13 years old and realized I was really part of something bigger than just my “inner geek”. Great moment…..

Great thread too BTW……

299. Boborci - July 3, 2010

298. Nice!

300. Capes - July 3, 2010

299. Thanks Bob!

It really was a great moment. And contrary to some of the posts here, ST11 rocked! Thank you for your contribution to it !

301. pock peared - July 3, 2010

uh. thought the question was “what made you think”, not ‘what made you feel”. but i get it anyway.

would’ve been funnier if spock had said “fred, your name is fred!”
and an embarrassed silence all around.

actually, that would’ve made me THINK.

302. pock peared - July 3, 2010

“is the shit, out of ranger?”

303. D.J. Ammons - July 3, 2010

Star Trek V was the Peter Principle at work. Bill Shatner rose to the level of his incompetence. We discovered that being an awesome Captain Kirk does not make one an awesome director.

I did not think it was possible for a ST film to be as bad as the ST TMP but ST V proved me wrong. It is the only Star Trek film that i am absolutely ashamed of as a ST fan.

I remember sitting in the theater and watching a particularly horrible sfx shot of the shuttle flying and landing or taking off and thinking it looked like the drawing for a low budget Saturday morning cartoon. The special effects on ST TNG tv show were better.

As much as I love Bill Shatner he is full of horse hockey when he says more money would have made ST V work. As Ralph Winter says the story concept was horrible and no amount of money could have fixed that.

304. Red Dead Ryan - July 3, 2010


Great choices there! I guess you’re not a TNG fan, mainly a TOS guy. Well that’s alright, no grudges! I happen to enjoy most of Trek, since I was born in 1981, I grew up with TNG and the other spinoffs. But I also adore TOS.

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned the seven minute flyby around the refit 1701 during TMP, but that was thought provoking as well. Seeing Kirk fall in love with the Enterprise again, the shiny new details on the hull, and of course, Jerry Goldsmith’s emotional music. That was one of the best scenes to portray the Enterprise as a character.

In TWOK, when Khan puts those Ceti eels in the ears of Chekov and Captain Terrell, you knew this guy was mad as well as bad.

In TSFS, after Kirk destroyed the Enterprise, Kirk says: “My god Bones, what have I done?” McCoy responds: “What you’ve always done. Turn death into a fighting chance to live.” Summed up Kirk’s strength as a character perfectly. As well as McCoy as a friend.

TVH: The scene where Kirk and Spock are crossing a street, unaware of the rules. A car nearly hits Kirk. The driver tells him “Why don’t you look where you’re going, dumbass!” To which Kirk replies: “Well, double dumbass on you!” and slams hand on the car. Funny scene.

TFF: The campfire scenes. The comeraderie between Kirk, Spock and McCoy was never better.

TUC: The final scene. Which marked the end of an era. “Second star to the right and straight on till morning.”

GEN: I liked the movie, unfortunately, the death of Kirk is thought provoking for all the wrong reasons. It was badly done, and even Picard wasn’t shown in a good light.

FC: I mentioned a couple of things from the movie earlier, so I’ll go with the “First Contact” scene between Zefram Cochrane and the Vulcans.
Really well done as it got to the core theme of Star Trek, and I always think of Gene Roddenberry whenever I watch it.

INS: When Picard defies Admiral Dougherty to uphold the Prime Directive as well as to do what was morally right.

NEM: Just before Picard crashes the Enterprise into the Scimitar, he tells a short story to Shinzon to distract him. Shinzon had the larger and much more powerful ship, but Picard used his experience to his advantage. Experience won over youth.

09: I mentioned the Kelvin scene earlier, so I’ll go with the Kelvin scene again. It was just that good.

305. Red Dead Ryan - July 3, 2010

I think I was getting crossed up with “great moments” when I laid out my list of “thought provoking” scenes. Oh well.

306. Harry Ballz - July 4, 2010


that’s okay! If it impressed you, and you shared it with us, that’s good!

307. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

#296 I do realise I’ve done my part here to muddle thought provoking and emotional.
I find that quite *fascinating* and I’m going to give over a chunk of my brain today to pondering how that happened.

#295 Harry, its not as if TNG tv didn’t turn up plenty of thought provoking moments. Picard was, in particular, a great channel for intelligent thinking.
But, I’m like you Harry, in as much as my love for Trek is pretty much centred on the original crew. Which is where our emtional bond truly lies.
And there I find myself linking emotion and thoughtful again.
Perhaps there is a link between the two?

308. S. John Ross - July 4, 2010

#307: “Perhaps there is a link between the two?”

At the best of times, certainly there is.

309. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

Now that I think about it I realise there is definitely a link between thought and emotion.
Just the another night i’d had a couple of glasses of wine and THOUGHT it would be a good idea to go onto eBay.
Anyway, you should have seen how EMOTIONAL my Mrs got when I told her i’d just bought a Mercedes!
So if you learn nothing else from this post make sure you never go onto ebay while you are feeling a bit ‘tired and emotional’. As we call being drunk here in the UK!
(I went and collected the car yesterday and luckily its a peach! phew!)

310. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

While I’m here Happy Independence Day guys.
Have a great day.

311. S. John Ross - July 4, 2010

#309: Dude. Drunk bidding is even worse than drunk dialing :)

#310: Yes. King George III can _kiss my American butt!_ What’s that, you say? He’s been dead for 190 years? Well then … huh. Okay then. Take THAT, King George III. Time to rub it in again.

312. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

S. John I won’t be getting drawn into any 200 year old troubles my friend lol. There is plenty of cross-pond tension at the moment what with the BP fiasco! Again, not one that I’m going to get pulled into!
All I will say is Happy 4th July. Surely, the best of times? ;-))

313. S. John Ross - July 4, 2010

The very best :)

314. Harry Ballz - July 4, 2010


Buzz, I agree, there were some great moments on TNG T.V. show, not the movies.

Yesterday’s Enterprise, anyone?

315. P Technobabble - July 4, 2010

I think it’s interesting to see Shatner’s original outline for the film and then see what it turned into by way of Harve Bennett and David Loughery. I know Shatner wasn’t happy about the changes that were made, and often fought vehemently to keep his original concepts in place. So, I think we have to blame Bennett and Loughery for the story Trek V wound up being.
But I do agree, the very original concept of “finding God” is a flawed premise. For each individual, God is something different. There would be no satisfactory conclusion. But the notion of “God as evil alien” was something Roddenberry proposed in an early draft of TMP, if my memory is still working. Even then it was rejected by the studio.
Finally, I will say, again, it was a travesty that Paramount refused to let Shatner do a Director’s Cut (have I said this too many times?). Better effects and some precision editing would have kept this film from going down in history as one of the worst in the series, IMO. Shame on you, Paramount!!!!

316. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

#307 yep, Yesterdays Enterprise was excellent. Not particularly thought provoking though?. The ep where Picard was on the planet with the alien played by Paul Winfield (Darmok?) was also very good and, once again, showed Picard’s strengths as a character and a man. Its a shame they made him into an action man (or tried to) in the movies. He was surrounded by muscle, there was no need for him to be anything less than the cerebral man we knew him to be. Which was his strength.

I can only remember him throwing one punch in the whole TNG run and that was on a Ferengi! lol Hardly a fair fight!

The only Trek movie that I didn’t see at the cinema was Insurrection. It just sounded so poor and yet when i eventually came to watch it at home I found i really enjoyed it. Perhaps its because my expectation was so low, But it was the only TNG movie that tried to give us Picard as we knew him.

And as for Picard in the others, urghhh. The lowest point for me was when he froze as Shinzon dragged himself along the spike he was impalled on and got his hands around his throat. Er, hello, Jean-Luc, if you don’t get your arse into gear that green thingy is going to blow your ship and crew to hell and beyond! arghhhhh!
It seems even the writers no longer knew how he was supposed to react and froze too!

317. V'Ger23 - July 4, 2010


No problem, Bob! Thanks for coming out here and interacting with us. You can’t please everybody…but I (like most) really enjoyed the last picture and I can’t wait to see what’s up next…!

318. Harry Ballz - July 4, 2010


Inner Light was great, too!

319. Red Skirt - July 4, 2010

#237, “So…not “thought provoking” and/ or comparable with TWOK character scenes?”

I would characterize most of your examples as formulaic cliches. ;-)

“I love how some people just blindly pretend that the movie just “TOTALLY WICKED SUCKED” because it suits their argument”

Who wrote that? Or even implied it? I’m not sure anybody has ever expressed that sentiment (in this thread at least), and I certainty did not, nor have I ever.

I love how “some people” over-exaggerate inferences from other’s comments when it suits them, because they “blindly pretend” the current film is beyond criticism.

#253, and thank you Bob. I got multiple responses too, so clearly I am doing something right, no? ;-)

320. Boborci - July 4, 2010



321. Red Skirt - July 4, 2010

#318, “Inner Light was great, too!”

Harry, it was the best. It is one of the most thought-provoking stories I think I have ever seen in television. I tear up every time I see it at the end when Picard realizes what is happening and says “It’s me, isn’t it” as well as the final moment with the flute in his cabin.

But I take exception to those who were not influenced by FIrst Contact. That was likely my first introduction to Star Trek, and I have to say there are some fantastic moments in that film. Virtually every time Alfre Woodard is on screen, especially with Stewart are amazing. Picard’s, callousness with the Borg-converted crewmen, his inner turmoil and hatred which must be overcome to actually combat the situation, all of James Cromwell’s portrayal as Zephram Cochrane’s struggle with the revelations about his future, which the crew foolishly make him aware – played brilliantly as humor but serious as a heart-attack, not to mention the post apocalyptic world in which they lived which echoed the post-cold war world we were living in at the time, rebuilding a global community which was threatened by newly formed and fragmented dissident governments. I could go on and on but I have a bar-b-que to get ready for … Happy 4th everybody. Be thankful most of us live in a world where we have such liberties to debate such things openly and freely.

322. Red Dead Ryan - July 4, 2010


Well said on all fronts!

I would like to add “City On The Edge Of Forever”, “Tapestry” and “The Visitor” as other thought provoking Trek episodes.

But it seems we have deviated from what the article is about, which is “Star Trek V: The Final Frontier”!

On the other hand, part of what makes this site great is you never really know where a conversation will go, especially with many thought provoking posts from everyone on here. :-)

323. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

People are happy to say they found something thoughtful but few have elaborated on what those thoughts have been.

Yes, Tapestry was also very enjoyable. But it didn’t make me think much of anything. Beyond the obvious- that was a good episode.

The best of Trek teaches us about friendship and loyalty and duty. Beyond that I’m not certain that there is much else?
Besides, for me, those traits are what attract me to Trek.

#321 You need not take exception because some of us fail to connect much with another Trek.
I will say, though, that there was one moment in FC when I found myself feeling a fleeting moment of affection for the TNG crew- it was when they were lined up at the very end of the film waiting to beam back to the Enterprise. I can’t explain why, but as I say, it was a fleeting moment.

And I hated the way Picard killed his own crew to save them from assimilation. And they weren’t even in red shirts! His crew bust their nuts to save him from the same fate before. All I learned about Picard was there was one rule for him and one for the little people. In fact I thought he was a bit of a bas**rd for doing that.

324. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

Oh and Visitor was excellent? DS9 right?

325. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

sorry, didn’t mean to put the first question mark in there. Unquestionably Visitor was a fine episode.

326. philpot - July 4, 2010

“ive always known….I’ll die alone…(with Patrick Stewart)”

327. Capes - July 4, 2010

314….Yesterday’s Enterprise.

I think a common thread here is what a particular episode or movie represents at a given point in a person’s life and what made it relevant to them. It’s not as much about that episode topic invoking additional thought like “Picard is tortured so let’s further explore that”. I think it’s more personal than that. One of the moments that served as an anchor in time for me was “Yesterday’s Enterprise”. My dad had died the week before it aired, and I had spent the previous three month’s coming to terms with the fact that he was dying and I couldn’t do anything but watch. It really felt like I was in a situation that screamed that this shouldn’t be happening. Couldn’t shake that voice in my head all the way to the end. After the dust had settled I was still numb, and that Saturday night I flipped on the tv and this was the episode that was on. It wasn’t that the episode changed my life, but it was poetic in a weird way and it became a touchstone in my life. It was also damn good television. “The Visitor” had a similarly profound effect on me based on the material and some terrific acting.

STTMP….I was 10 years old, and I was watching “Specter of the gun” one Sunday afternoon. Kirk and the boys are duking it out at the OK Corral. My mom comes in and says lets go to the movies. It was the weekend the movie came out and clearly I was excited to see it…..It was a family reunion for me, and seeing the Big E on the screen was like seeing the house I grew up in with a fresh coat of paint and some remodeling work. It was great. The movie itself…..not so good, but seeing the gang in something new, that I didn’t already have memorized…..are you kidding? That rocked! So I can’t help but have fond thoughts about STTMP…..

“The Doomsday Machine” I love this episode…..the Enterprise is pursued by a Giant Ice Cream Cone/Tube Sock, It has another starship in it (damaged of course), Cap’n Kirk is busy being heroic, Scotty is busy giving it all she’s got, William Windom is over the top and chewing up the scenery as Decker. Great Story. Cool acting. And all on a budget of about $19….. Just really cool stuff! It helps that the first time I saw it I was 6….The first time I showed it to my boys they were about the same age….. and they had the same look I had had. Cool.

Lastly Star Trek 2009…..They did enough to capture the elements I loved one more time. Can I nitpick ? Sure. Kirk with blue eyes…..really? Couldn’t use some contact lens? BUT the chemistry was right…..Nimoy rocked…..the casting was great……the story was good…….and at 41 years old I get to see TOS again, just in a different light. Getting old is fine provided that the things you bring with you are given the opportunity to age well. This movie succeeded for that reason.

This has been a great thread. Thanks if you bothered to read my post and Happy 4th everyone.

328. Boborci - July 4, 2010


Nice. Happy 4th.

329. Red Dead Ryan - July 4, 2010


“Tapestry” dealt with the idea of what would happen if you can go back and “undo” something you’ve regretted. Then from that moment on your life isn’t the same because you undid something important. There were lessons from that event that end up being erased. Then your life takes a different (and possibly less satisfying) path, such as demonstrated by Picard when he asks Q to help him undo his near-fatal fight with the Nausicaans. Picard then learns that he wouldn’t become a starship captain. He realizes that while his brashness and cockiness nearly killed him, it also gave him the wisdom and patience that would earn him the captaincy.

330. Capes - July 4, 2010

#328 Thank you Bob.

#329 You make a great point Red. If I had the opportunity today to undo one of the moments of my life…..even if it meant undoing an impactful tragedy in my life, I wouldn’t do it. Even if it meant one more day with someone who had meant the world to me, the answer would still be “no”. Because I wouldn’t give up one piece of what I have today, or of who I am.

To paraphrase Captain JTK….the steps I took, the order I took them, were absolutely necessary to be the person I am…..and to those I care about, nothing is more important than that. We have to embrace who we are and what got us to this point in our lives. As much as STV pains me, I agree with one thing…..I need my pain. I think we all do to be who we are.

331. Buzz Cagney - July 4, 2010

Not me. I was a better person, a happier person, without some of the pain i’m now carrying around.

But surely its a pointless waste of time pondering about how you would change your past? It ain’t gona happen and is a terribly negative thing to do. Its typical of a navel gazer like Picard though.
You’ve made your choices. They were the correct choices for you at that moment. Its done.

332. Harry Ballz - July 4, 2010

Pain is a powerful teacher.

333. S. John Ross - July 5, 2010

My current headache, for example, teaches me that I shouldn’t sit this close to the big speaker by the bar.

334. Harry Ballz - July 5, 2010

Well, even though he was large, did he have anything interesting to say? :>)

335. Red Dead Ryan - July 5, 2010

Probably just small talk!

336. Harry Ballz - July 5, 2010

You know what they say……big feet……………………………………………..big shoes!

What, you had a different answer?

337. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

#326. philpot
“ive always known….I’ll die alone…(with Patrick Stewart)”

Well, he did “die alone” in a very real sense –he was a man out of his time in which all of his friends were gone, with the only ones who were still alive being Spock and Scotty, and for all he knew at that moment, they were probably dead too (even though they wasn’t). But Picard was a total stranger to Kirk that he knew for less than an hour.

Kirk did die alone.

338. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

321. Red Skirt
“Happy 4th everybody. Be thankful most of us live in a world where we have such liberties to debate such things openly and freely.”

For the time being anyway …and that time grows shorter and shorter sadly enough.

339. Red Dead Ryan - July 5, 2010

I thought the axiom went something like this:

Big hands………big balls!

340. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

322. Red Dead Ryan
“I would like to add “City On The Edge Of Forever”, “Tapestry” and “The Visitor” as other thought provoking Trek episodes.”

Those are all great choices.

341. Red Dead Ryan - July 5, 2010


They should have kept Kirk alive at the end of “Generations” so that he could have been reunited with Spock, Scotty and McCoy in the twenty fourth century.
Then they all could have appeared on “Deep Space Nine” and had drinks together at Quark’s. :-)

Then William Shatner would have been able to appear in the new movie by time travelling with Spock into the past.

342. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

324. Buzz Cagney
“Oh and Visitor was excellent? DS9 right?”

“The Visitor” is one of DS9’s very best episodes, but it does have one major shortcoming: the girl who wants to tell the story that goes knocking on Jake’s door at the beginning is gone by story’s end by virtue of the choice Jake makes in order to change (and correct) history.

343. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

330. Capes
“If I had the opportunity today to undo one of the moments of my life…..even if it meant undoing an impactful tragedy in my life, I wouldn’t do it.”

There are moments I would gladly “undo” in my life that I believe would only change it for the considerably better.

“As much as STV pains me, I agree with one thing…..I need my pain. I think we all do to be who we are.”

Not when a lot of that pain is also why your life turned to Crap.

344. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

331. Buzz Cagney
“Not me. I was a better person, a happier person, without some of the pain i’m now carrying around.”

Now here’s someone I can relate to.

“But surely its a pointless waste of time pondering about how you would change your past? It ain’t gona happen and is a terribly negative thing to do. Its typical of a navel gazer like Picard though.
You’ve made your choices. They were the correct choices for you at that moment. Its done.”

Or so I had thought there for a moment anyway . . .

345. Harry Ballz - July 5, 2010

I wish I could go back and retrieve the last five minutes of my life reading these posts!

346. S. John Ross - July 5, 2010

[Appears as an angel to Harry Ballz, and shows him how, had he never spent five minutes reading those posts, the entire town of Bedford Falls would be miserable].

347. Red Dead Ryan - July 5, 2010

Bedford Falls wouldn’t even exist without Harry!

348. StarFuryG7 - July 5, 2010

Glad to have made it ‘worth your time’ . . . apparently . . .

349. Harry Ballz - July 5, 2010

Was I the only guy, when watching that movie, who rooted for Potter?

350. Harry Ballz - July 5, 2010

BEDFORD FALLS! Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch…..

351. Mike thompson Uk - July 5, 2010

337#341 Star Trek III, Spock ” you came back for me”

Kirk ” you’d have done the same for me”

That’s why Generations failed for me!

Loved V, that why we went to Yosmite in 91 :-)

352. Capes - July 5, 2010

#331 Absolutely!

#343 What if the possibility of undoing some point in your life led to unraveling something that is good in your life right now. Ex: A child that is never born? A relationship that never comes together? We’re defined by all of it, good and bad.

#345 Sorry Harry. I’m told that if you slingshot counterclockwise around the sun you might get your 5 minutes back…..

#349 I rooted for Potter in the SNL skit….it was a classic.

353. Buzz Cagney - July 6, 2010

A great lyric in this song…. make your past your past………


Sorry I disappointed you Starfury. lol

354. Buzz Cagney - July 6, 2010

#352 In my rambling way (sorry!) I don’t think I made clear that I carry no pain because of choices that I made. I can live with those.
My pain is entirely due to bereavement. I wish I could undo the losses that have happened in my life.
That being said I guess even those terrible events shape you, but the price seems horribly high.

Do please listen to that song i’ve linked to. Nice song and the video is quirky.

355. Harry Ballz - July 6, 2010


I understand your pain, I’ve had many people close to me pass away……………an old friend, from Britain, once put it in perspective for me when he quietly, and reassuringly, whispered, “you didn’t really expect to get through this life without shedding a few tears, did you?”

At the time I understood he meant it in the best possible way…………………

In it’s own way, life IS a tapestry that unfolds the way it must.

As Picard would observe, “c’est la vie!”

356. Buzz Cagney - July 7, 2010

Thanks Harry. Wise words indeed.

357. skyjedi - July 7, 2010

Worst movie was JJTrek not Trek V.

V was actually about something and had a message. XI Had zero message or was just plain empty action flick with eye candy.

358. Lonzo5 - July 7, 2010

I remember seeing it in the theaters with my mom’s boyfriend at the time, who was kind of an art/sci-fi mentor, and I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It was the first ST movie I got to see on the silver screen, which still really meant something back then. Now I see it with slightly jaded eyes, but I can still see a shadow of the vision that somehow just never chanced to be. I must say, the book was pretty damn good, and was much closer to the ideal I though I was seeing as a kid back in ’89. I really like the plot, and I think if Nicholas Meyer or Leonard Nimoy had directed it, it would’ve been a hit. The effects didn’t have to be that bad– they were just overused in order to prop up a screenplay that wasn’t being solidly executed.

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