Rick Berman Talks Marlon Brando In Star Trek, The Future of Trek on TV & More | TrekMovie.com
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Rick Berman Talks Marlon Brando In Star Trek, The Future of Trek on TV & More March 2, 2011

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Star Trek (2009 film),Star Trek Into Darkness,Trek Franchise,Trek on TV , trackback

Star Trek’s former overlord Rick Berman has been taking some fan questions at the official site, opining on issues ranging from why no gays in Trek to actors almost cast (like Marlon Brando for Soran in Generations). Berman also gave his opinion about the future of the franchise. See below for excerpts and a breakdown.

 

Berman on the future of Star Trek – expects new TV series, but not with him

Star Trek producer Rick Berman answered some fan submitted questions at the official Star Trek site, and some of the most interesting dealt with his views on the future of the franchise he oversaw for 18 years. Here is Berman opining on what we can expect next:

I certainly think that J.J. Abrams will continue making films with the characters that he has reconceived, in a sense, from the Original Series. And I would not be surprised if he and his writers end up being involved in a new series at some point. I can’t imagine that there won’t be a new series on television. But I don’t believe that new series will be a continuation or tying up of loose ends of Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager or Enterprise.

Going on, the former Star Trek producer admits that even though he believes there will be a new series he says it is "anybody’s guess" where it might go in terms of setting (future, prequel, alternative reality, etc.). But one thing Berman does seem sure of is that he will have no part in it, saying:

I think my 18 years of Star Trek had some great highs and some definite lows, but I think it’s time for new people to come in and breathe some fresh air into whatever gets done in the future.

Brando for Soran? + more More from Berman on various issues:

More highlights from his Q&A:


Malcolm McDowell as Soran in "Star Trek Generations" (1994) and Marlon Brando in "don Juan DeMarco" (1995) – Brando interested in Soran but wanted too much $$$

For all the details visit StarTrek.com: Part 1 & Part 2.

 

Comments

1. Greg2600 - March 2, 2011

Good Heavens! Island of Dr. Moreau Marlon Brando?

2. Anthony Thompson - March 2, 2011

Brando and Kinski! Wow! My favorite actor and actress. To have them tied into Trek would have been wonderful!

3. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 2, 2011

I would have paid Brando anything to get him in Trek. That would have given Generations a Big time Star and who knows what would have happned to Trek if Marlon Brando got into Trek. Also. Berman was right about one thing. He should have listned to us fans.

4. Marvin the Martian - March 2, 2011

Rick Berman clearly has terrible taste in music.

5. Bringbacktrekagain! - March 2, 2011

I thought it odd that ‘suddenly’ in Generation’s they had to have Kirk die. Just didn’t make sense to me, nor did the Nexus, which leaves me thinking there’s another Kirk stuck in it, since after all there is another Guinan in there too?????

6. MDSHiPMN - March 2, 2011

Greg2600, that is the best Brando ever.

Him + Val + awesome cgi = best movie ever.

7. Johnathan Rutgar McManus - March 2, 2011

I think JJ Abrams has no idea what he’s doing, has no respect for the genre, Gene Roddenberry is spining in his grave. Whats it gonna take to ge some decent writting for this franchise, Stargate had plenty of good writhers in the first 9 seasons, we all know what happened there! Please its not that hard! Stop writting for a bunch of 12 year old boys! You got to be freaking kidding me!

8. davidfuchs - March 2, 2011

@4

He has a point, actually. Sometimes you can have great music that’s too powerful for its own good as a score. I haven’t watched enough TNG recently to tell if that’s a valid critique, but I can get that feeling from the CDs.

On the other hand, I think McCarthy’s music had the exact opposite problem: being incredibly generic for most aspects and thus acting merely as sonic filler, rather than enhancing the scene or playing up what the audience should feel.

9. Jeff O'Connor - March 2, 2011

I’ve always preferred McCarthy’s music but whenever I’ve told people my reasoning I’ve been laughed at. I imagine that won’t change now but it’s fun to see Berman stating things exactly as I always have — Ron’s music was just too damned attention-grabbing for its own good, even if by extension it’s much more enjoyable to listen to on its own.

At any rate, as I’ve said on a few other sites reporting this interview, I like that Berman has come and said that if he could change anything it would be to have listened to the fans more. I’ve never hated the guy — granted I was only seventeen when his tenure ended with the cancellation of Enterprise, anyway — but I’ve never hated the guy and wish him well.

He definitely hit some blatant lows with the franchise but he also did a fantastic job with some bedazzling heights. You deserve more respect than you tend to get, Rick, even if a lot of the criticisms leveled against you are strong ones.

10. Magic_Al - March 2, 2011

Brando is a fascinating what-if because the character would have been whatever Brando wanted to do. It might have been brilliant, bizarre, a train wreck, or all at once. The idea of Brando killing Capt. Kirk — I don’t know what it is, but it’s something.

11. kmart - March 2, 2011

The only reason Jones’ stuff might be considered too attention-getting is because the visuals were so understated, low-contrast, poorly-staged et. al. that ANY emotion at all would be upstaging and overamping the scene in most TNG. The show rarely used steadicam and was friggin’ awful at staging fight scenes (look at DS9’s WotW and you can see what we did NOT get on TNG), but Jones’ music was good, just better than the show for the most part.

Chattaway’s first and only great score is TIN MAN, and that overamps things like vintage TOS … and it works!

Brando and Shatner bumping bellies on a bridge would be going a bridge too far for me, but it is fun to imagine how he would have slurred ‘time is the fire in which we burn.’

Can’t say enuf bad stuff about Berman.

12. Red Dead Ryan - March 2, 2011

In my opinion, I find that the best Trek music all came from the movies. Generally the music from all of the series I find to be merely okay, not great. The “Amok Time” and “Best Of Both Worlds” music were the exception. Those episodes had great music.

But I think movies are friendlier for memorable themes and pieces because there are no commercials, plus there’s twice the amount of time to devote to epic music. Also, a movie gives more time for composers to fine-tune their music to the themes as well as allowing for more creative opportunities. A weekly series doesn’t allow for much creativity because of time and budget constraints. Plus the music is often recycled.

13. Sebastian - March 2, 2011

Brando was a fine actor (as “On The Waterfront” “Godfather” or “Streetcar Named Desire” will testify), but in 1996, he was far too overweight and too deep in his ‘ponytail/caftan-wearing’ stage to really, IMO, be a viable candidate for the role.

Besides, Malcolm McDowell fit the role like a glove. It all worked out (I’m not a big NG fan, but I kind of liked “Generations” for some reason).

14. Red Dead Ryan - March 2, 2011

11

“Brando and Shatner bumping bellies on a bridge would be going a bridge too far for me…”

And that bridge would’ve had to have been pretty big to fit the both of them!

15. boborci - March 2, 2011

i can’t imagine being a part of anything for 18 years. That is not something I will do.

16. T'Cal - March 2, 2011

While there are some good scenes in GEN but I get more aggravated by its gaping plot holes each time I watch it. It was a lost opportunity. Even Brando couldn’t have saved it.

17. Red Dead Ryan - March 2, 2011

15

So the plan is still going to be three movies and that’s it?

18. boborci - March 2, 2011

maybe only two. i don’t know. maybe more than 3. but 18 years!!!??? fresh blood needed long before that!

19. vulcannonibird - March 2, 2011

I think they should leave tng, ds9 and titan to the novels- they are well done. Only sad Thing was that the ds9 relaunch was going down with warpath. I just re-read avatar to unity- great stufe.

Hope after good destiny and typhoon pakt they will continue…

20. DJT - March 2, 2011

I don’t think adding Marlo to the mix would have saved Generations. In fact, I think Malcolm McDowell was actually one of the better things about that movie. I will forever think of the guy as Soran.

21. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 2, 2011

Hey Bob you are tight. keeping fresh Ideas is the smart thing to do.
As Kirk said in Trek 4. Young minds fresh ideas be tollerant.
Bob. We are all very tollerant of you and the court.

22. Red Dead Ryan - March 2, 2011

18

I guess the third movie depends on whether the second is a success. But yeah, 18 years is too long. I suppose ten for most people would be ideal, when it comes to writing for Trek at least.

But who knows? Maybe a breakthrough in cloning will allow for two Bob Orcis, you the original can move on after the (potential) third movie while the clone could continue for awhile afterwards on a new series!

23. KalEl - March 2, 2011

Rick Berman continues to be a complete douche. Thank goodness he is no longer running Star Trek. “Should have listened to the fans more”?! Exactly! That’s why Enterprise was canceled. He brought in Manny Coto, who DID listen to the fans, way too late to save the series, which Coto was on his way to doing before the network cancelled it. Berman puts it lightly here, back in the day he actually said he didn’t care what the fans thought and that we didn’t know anything about what we wanted. Basically a superiority complex.

And he only saw 2/3rds of Star Trek?! Who runs this whole franchise without watching the entire foundation?!

24. Vultan - March 2, 2011

#18

Leave it at two films, Bob. Puuurdy please…

Trek in 2012. Nolan finishing his Batman trilogy in 2012. Sounds like perfect timing to me to let ole Chris take a crack at Roddenberry’s creation. Or perhaps Duncan Jones… or maybe just take Trek back to TV where it’s done [most] of its best work. Of course, the stars will have to align—and Les Moonves will have to be booted out of his command chair—before that ever happens.

Fingers crossed.

25. Dr. Cheis - March 2, 2011

Generations would have been even more disappointing with Brando in it. The movie wouldn’t have been any better because of him, but our expectations would have been higher.

26. Cygnus-X1 - March 2, 2011

“…but I think it’s time for new people to come in and breathe some fresh air into whatever gets done in the future.”

He thinks? Firstly, who honestly cares what he thinks about the direction of Trek now that he’s finally left it? Are people lining up to ask Rick Berman for his sagacious advice about the future of Trek? Does he think that they are?

But, secondly, most or all of us agree with the objective portion of his statement: Rick Berman being replaced has been, continues to be, and will ever be, a good thing.

27. trekpower.org - March 2, 2011

@Orci @Kurzman @all

I hope very much, they will produce a new series before I (age 41) am too old to see it ;)

Abrams and in every case Kurzman and Orci should produce this new series, maybe with some input of Berman.

Whats about a tng series with new characters, but in a changing universe? It begins in timeline 1 and the Enterprise D or E or whatever is rushing into one of those damned anomalies, so they switch from time to time from timeline 1 to timeline 2, whre Vulcan is destroyed and so on. I think, they could make something great out of this idea and maybe it would be also the possibility to bring the timeline 1 – tng somehow to a more famous end than with nemesis (that i loved although)!?

28. trekpower.org - March 2, 2011

#27

my bad english… i mean not “new characters”, but new actors! sorry!

29. Andrew - March 2, 2011

Okay Bob Orci,

We may disagree on the height needed to be a Klingon, but how about Paul Giamatti as Jean Luc Picard in a reimagined TNG series?

I know, why would he do a tv series…but still, a man can dream.

30. Joel1245 - March 3, 2011

The problem with Brando is that he was always wanting too much money. That’s why they took him out of Superman II.

31. Bugs Nixon - March 3, 2011

Hating on Rick Berman is only a relatively new thing, brought about only because of voices on the internet. He was loved and appreciated for most of his time. This attitude towards him only really occurred after Insurrection, which was far worse than Nemesis.

If RB made any mistakes, it actually was to listen to the hardcore fans and it seems from this interview, he would repeat this mistake if he had the reigns again. A tiny tiny teeny microscopically small fraction of hardcore voices tend to drown everyone else out – it’s a silly, poorly informed voice too, that any smart producer shouldn’t listen to. I like the way Bob Orci works, he gives the fans the sense that they have a direct effect on the content but he is actually able to filter out the bull that doesn’t work.

Too much canon is a bad thing. Listening to hardcore fans is also a bad thing. Making repetitive formulaic inward looking stories is not box office gold either. A fan watching DVD’s of Voyager does not make you a television executive.

Star Trek failed eventually because it had become routine and unremarkable – at that point, the formula had become obvious… there always is a formula to Trek, but it’s how well it is used to express fun philosophical, themes and values that strike a chord with a mass audience. JJ did it right. Firstly, he set out to make an entertaining adventure film with some fun philosophy and familiar settings and characters.

Ignore the canon.

32. Surak1701 - March 3, 2011

Tom Hardy as Picard in the TNG remake. ;-)

33. Cygnus-X1 - March 3, 2011

31. Bugs Nixon

—-Hating on Rick Berman is only a relatively new thing, brought about only because of voices on the internet. He was loved and appreciated for most of his time. This attitude towards him only really occurred after Insurrection, which was far worse than Nemesis.—-

Well, I don’t know on whose behalf you purport to be speaking, but your opinion is not shared by me. My feelings about Rick Berman are very simple: the more boring, uninspired and ultimately uninteresting that Star Trek became, the more I blamed the head honcho, the man whose name was first and foremost all over all of the stuff that I was increasingly finding dissatisfying—Rick Berman. And this dissatisfaction began well before I’d ever read anything on the Web.

That’s it. As far as I’m concerned, the buck stopped with him, and I am neither persuaded nor interested in an endless parade of apologetics on his behalf. He put his name all over it. He wanted to be the boss. He’s gotta take the responsibility. Period.

And you’re 0 for 2 regarding the TNG films, because I enjoyed Insurrection despite its many flaws, but found Nemesis to be a travesty not quite as bad as Generations, but battling with STV for 2nd worst Trek film.

34. Basement Blogger - March 3, 2011

I think Rick Berman gets too much criticism and anger for his work on Star Trek. He did everything he could to adhere to Gene Roddenberry’s vision. Brent Spiner said of Berman:

“Rick more than anybody else protected Gene Roddenberry’s vision. There were times we wanted to do things in an episode, and Rick would be, ‘No, no, no. Gene wouldn’t want that and that’s not what Star Trek is about.’” (TrekMovie article link below.)

He wasn’t a perfect man. I certainly disagree with his opinion that Ron Jones music called too much attention to itself. Jones’ music was strong melodically and harmonically bringing an emotional resonance. Of course, it’s “The Best of Both Worlds” soundtrack that is Jones best known. What happend after Jones was musical wallpaper with all due respect to Jay Chattaway, his approach was inappropriate dissonance.

But after watching the shows, he helped to create, Voyager, DS9, and Enterprise, he’s carried on Gene’s vision. The more I see of Enterprise, the more I like it. It didn’t help that Paramount put the show on UPN where it played on low powered TV stations like here in Cincinnati. It would have been better if Enterprise had run on Sci-Fi, or TNT. Today, it would be better to run such a show on AMC, SyFy, or TNT.

Spiner defends Berman and Abrams
http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/10/spiner-comes-to-the-defense-of-rick-berman-and-jj-abrams/

35. Bugs Nixon - March 3, 2011

33. Cygnus-X1

Thanks for the response. Read on and you’ll see I am blaming him… for listening to what hardcore fans wanted… more canon – which results in safe introverted formulaic patterns – in fact I won’t use the word routine, I think ‘lazy’ is more appropriate.

Trek became a factory production line of product based on a brand that RB thought fans wanted. It didn’t work. In the end he let it slip into a brand.

Look at how Nick Meyer breathed life into the film franchise [ensuring its future], which was creatively at odds with what Rodenberry himself thought was right.

Star Trek works best when it recoils away from what perceived wisdom says it should be. Meyer innovated based on the materials he was presented with.

I hated Insurrection and Nemesis because they were lazy production line scripts, Generations scores points with me because at least it tried. in my view, banality and safeness is a far worse sin than trying and failing.

36. Vultan - March 3, 2011

Not sure what happened to Chattaway after “Tin Man,” which is one of my favorites, but maybe Berman told him to tone it down if he wanted to keep his job.

Anyway, firing Ron Jones is the only beef I have with Berman. Well, that and his strict view of “what Gene would’ve wanted.” That was the same mistake Disney made in the immediate years after Walt passed away. They tried to keep it the same, which anyone familiar with Walt Disney knows he was never satisfied with the status quo. But I digress.

37. captain_neill - March 3, 2011

There were different showrunners under Berman, DS9 had Ira Behr. THere was Michael Pillar, Jeri Taylor and Manny Coto to name a few.

Rick Berman might have been there for too long but I still loved a lot of Trek done under his watch, a lot of which I still prefer over Abrams latest movie.

I believe he tried his best to mainstain Gene’s vision while tweaking a few things.

Now Abrams made a good movie and respects some of the ideals of Roddenberry but did give the film a more Star Wars vibe. The movies will continue to be good but I do feel that they will be going slightly more away from Roddenberry’s ideals to appease the mainstream crowds.

As long as the films are recognisable as Star Trek I will still be there, just because they are no longer canon and now in a parallel universe I can still enjoy it. But the moment the current movies are not recognisable as Star Trek then that’s when I will really be pissed off.

38. Greg - March 3, 2011

Berman is an idiot. Jone’s music was in the tradition of great Trek scores, going back to TOS. It’s called “space opera” for a reason, Rick!

And I will NEVER forgive him (or Les Moonives at CBS/Paramount) for pulling the rug out from under Manny and the Reeves-Stevenses.

39. Devon - March 3, 2011

“The movies will continue to be good but I do feel that they will be going slightly more away from Roddenberry’s ideals to appease the mainstream crowds.”

By Roddenberry’s ideals do you mean the “ideals” of the truly talented people who actually came up with them who weren’t Roddenberry? In that case, I’m not too worried about that honestly.

40. captain_neill - March 3, 2011

39

It’s a group effort but Roddenberry started it off.

I don’t want to see a film that is unrecognisable as Star Trek and only Trek in name only.

41. Jack2211 - March 3, 2011

I’ve gleefully complained about the staleness of post-TNG Trek for years, but, you know, it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

I’m hoping for some strange new worlds and snappy dialogue in the next one. But it really is nice to not know what to expect.

42. Dom - March 3, 2011

Roddenberry’s original ***concept*** for Star Trek (people in straitjackets have visions!) was at considerable variance to what was made when all the other talented writers an producers shaped the idea.

‘Gene’s Vision’ is a fraud, clung on to by Berman because he didn’t have the imagination to take Trek in an interesting direction of his own. His remarks about Ron Jones show him to be a cloth-eared dunce!

What I surmise from Berman’s remarks is that he’s an arrogant man with precious little creative talent who got drunk on the power rush or being ‘Mr Star Trek.’ You only have to read remarks by the likes of Ron Moore to realise that they had to fight Berman all the way to make the Trek shows interesting.

The remarks attributed to Brent Spiner couldn’t be more wrong. When Gene’s dead you don’t give a damn what he would think about the show! The man’s dead, he’s not living in this world and reacting to what’s going on in it! Berman’s slavish adherence to the supposed ‘Gene’s Vision’ smothered creativity in Star Trek, trapping it in a 1980s production timewarp.

1960s Star Trek was relevant. 2000s TV Trek was simply a 1980s TV series with better effects!

Rodders himself was lost in his utopian dreams by the time David Gerrold developed TNG for him. Gerrold would have made a much more interesting show had he been allowed to run it. Read the Encounter at Farpoint novelisation and see how, while much is the same, it’s handled differently and feels far more like a believable continuation of Star Trek.

Berman and his mob stole Star Trek from the people and kept it for a diminishing, quasi-religious fanbase. JJ Abrams gave Trek back to the mainstream, at which it should always have been aimed!

43. Devon - March 3, 2011

“39

It’s a group effort but Roddenberry started it off.”

He conceived it. Others raised it while he showed up for the parent/teacher conferences every once in a while. One thing I like about J.J. is that he’s humble enough not to hog all the credit.

In this case, can you clarify what specific ideals you’re asking about?

44. Geek_Girl - March 3, 2011

Pssst Bob, I have a great idea for a new series, come closer and I’ll whisper it in your ear *glares at other posters* . I was hoping to be able to produce it myself one day, but I suppose the court might be capable of doing it.

45. James - March 3, 2011

Im sure Bob will sort out the Tom Hanks casting issue

46. Nick Cook - March 3, 2011

Never ever understood all the hate spewed at Berman. He’s a human being; some of his work was great, some of it was mediocre, and some of it awful.

Overall, I liked a great deal of the Trek produced on his watch, and I’m certainly interested in hearing what he has to say.

Thanks for keeping my favourite show alive for so long, Rick.

47. I'm Dead Jim! - March 3, 2011

There were some things I liked about Generations but I think the film would have been a low point in Brando’s career.

48. captain_neill - March 3, 2011

46

Never have I, a lot of great Trek was made under his watch. Yes he made some mistakes but the great stuff outweighs the mistakes.

49. Carmichael3 - March 3, 2011

As long as the new series is not another reboot then that’ll be good. TNG era doesn’t need reboooting. Prime Universe future would be nice, I’m personally more of a sequel than a prequel guy

50. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

It would’ve been just another paycheck for Brando and a complete disaster for Generations. I doubt the script would be able to cope with him improving stuff on the spot. He was doing music videos and trading off his film star image at that point, instead of bringing his A-game.

51. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

Improving – as in improvisation.

52. Damian - March 3, 2011

Another Rick Berman article and I’m sure by next week, there will be about 500 comments here, 450 which will be why I hate Berman’s tenure of Star Trek. Fine, this site is more about the new movie than anything else, since that is today’s reality. And it seems there are a lot of fans of the new movie who dislike Berman’s tenure, and vice versa.

Sometimes I feel like I am in the minority. How many people out there feel as I do? I loved Star Trek (2009), and I also loved Enterprise, Voyager, Deep Space Nine, Insurrection and Nemesis. It seems many are either in one of the two camps, but not both at the same time.

53. Three and then three more - March 3, 2011

Do Three films in the new universe then get Q to reset as he wants to meet the proper Picard later on and do three more in respect of the original canon.

You CAN have the best of both Worlds or Universes in this case.

54. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

52. It’s unfortunate that change, usually comes in the form of a violent reaction to what came before. Instead of a transition from one to other.

I like all of Star Trek, although have to admit I’m only just coming to terms with the Abramsverse, Neroverse, nuTOS or whatever label it needs to adopt when mentioned in the same breath as past iterations.

55. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

ENT was heading towards TOS in Season 4 and I suppose had it run a natural course, we’d have arrived back at adventures set the 23rd Century on TV about now. Steering a franchise is a bit like turning a tanker in the middle of the Atlantic. The old guard, Berman included did the best they could. It’s just unfortunate we had to hitch part of the way!

56. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

I’m surprised he cannot accept the monumental screw up of Kirks death for what it was.

No one is upset that Kirk died, ok may a few, but how he died. Of course this has been pointed out on so many occasions.

The poor way in which Kirks demise came about would not have been so unforgivable had it simply been some potentially good writing that simply did not translate well.

But for crying out loud having him fall off of a cliff. How anti climatic. That must have looked as bad on paper as it was on screen. Kids could have written better.

Data’s death was just horribly forced.

The fact is there were some great moments in Trek on tv but Berman and crew were simply not cut out for movies. They were so far out of their depth evidenced in that the only decent film they made would have worked simply because the Borg are such great characters.

57. Capes - March 3, 2011

@52

You aren’t alone. I am just thankful that someone is out there trying to do something interesting and imaginative with the franchise. Sometimes its good, other times it isn’t . But I am not going to vilify anybodies efforts when all I am required to do is to choose to watch it…..or not.

We should be happy to have the luxury of being the armchair quarterbacks who critique the work of all of these people…..

58. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

@53 A technique refered to as the “God in the Box ” scenario. Considered really bad storytelling in many circles so i doubt that will ever happen.

59. dratikus - March 3, 2011

Malcolm McDowell rocks!

60. Nick Cook - March 3, 2011

@ 57 (Capes). Well said. :)

61. Niall Johnson - March 3, 2011

Yeah, I can’t say I really appreciate the biased use of the word “overlord” in the opening paragraph.

62. Some Dude on the Internet - March 3, 2011

BOB ORCI GET BACK TO WORK!!!!

;)

63. trekprincess - March 3, 2011

captain_neill you can’t tolerate young minds, fresh ideas

64. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

Remembering James Doohan, was born on this day (March 3rd 1920).

From 3 min 30 seconds in….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1pTcU4l8Ak

65. Hugh Hoyland - March 3, 2011

I entered a screenplay contest in the past week. I might know how Bob feels when someone “critiques” his work rather harshly, sheesh lol.

66. I'm Dead Jim! - March 3, 2011

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SCOTTY PRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We miss you!

67. Oz - March 3, 2011

I think Berman did a mostly skillful job of guiding Trek, at least during the first half of his “Overlord” days, but I have always strongly disagreed with his views on the musical scores. TOS had great music, and the mostly bland TNG etc. stuff just doesn’t compare (with a few limited exceptions.) Thank goodness J.J. Abrams does not share the Berman view on music. Still love Giacchino’s score for the 2009 movie.

68. Steve-o - March 3, 2011

hey are there any articles where the Okudas talk about their thoughts on the new movie? I am more so interested on their ideas about the “look” of everything then an actual review of the movie itself.

Perhaps in the new movie there could be a collaboration, which will give the aesthetic of the movie a hybrid feel of the two timelines (or realities)

69. Rocket Scientist - March 3, 2011

Gotta say, there was more Trek produced under Berman that I *liked* vs. the amount that I didn’t like. I revisited ENT and now VOY and find that they both have a lot of positives that I didn’t see before. In fact I now list ENT as one of my favorite Treks (and not just the 4th season either).

DS9? PFFFFTTT. Greatness. ‘Nuff said.

70. captain_neill - March 3, 2011

63

I can tolerate new ideas.

What I can’t tolerate is the Rick Berman bashing.

71. dubb - March 3, 2011

I truly believe Rick Berman missed the mark on how to take advantage of good music in television early on. Post-Ron Jones (with a few exceptions), much of the music in the TV shows were the equivalent of scribbling and gibberish, doing little more than adding tension due to their constant and uncomfortable dissonance which never seemed to resolve, as well as their lack of melody and direction. Ron Jones was able to encompass and augment the emotion and tension of the scene with dissonance, yes, but while creating (*gasp*) themes and melodies, and actually making music that was listenable! Knowing the Star Trek audience loves its music, they could have banked on show soundtracks if they kept that up. Ah well. Guess I’m Monday morning quarterbacking, eh?

72. Peter - March 3, 2011

He’d pay more attention to the fans?

Way to go genius. You mean, THE CUSTOMER?

What a putz.

73. VZX - March 3, 2011

I’ve been at my job for only 12 years and I’m sick of it. I’m trying to get out into something different. 18 years?!?! Dang, I could never.

RIck Berman is a douche-bag. Big time. I appreciate what he did for Trek, but he is very dillusional and did a lot of stupid things.

About the music: I remember watching Ron Moore complaining about the “sonic wallpaper” of the series’ music. I agree that it highly sucked. Thank Berman for that.

74. Daoud - March 3, 2011

I don’t hate Berman. I just have Berman fatigue.
.
I didn’t like the valentine he sent me. JJ and Boborci sent better candy. More candy please? :)
.
Oh, and his claim they didn’t know who Straczynski was is misleading evasion. JMS wasn’t known at that point as a television scriptwriter, but he sure had put forth his idea to Paramount in 1989 for a space-station based series in the Trek universe *before* Berman started the DS9 project. Convenient that Berman was just becoming fully involved in exec prodding TNG. A shame B5 couldn’t have been developed as a 2160’s era “start of the Federation” series: the Minbari as Vulcans, the Centauri as well.. Centaurans, and the Narn as Saurians… and the Vorlons as… Vorlons. Gosh that would have been fun.

75. Adrick - March 3, 2011

I agree that (at the time) homosexuality was best addressed directly through sci-fi metaphor and abstraction…that’s how Star Trek rolls, after all. But I disagree that having a same-sex couple in the background somewhere would have been ineffective. How many times have we heard how inspirational Uhura was just for being on the bridge, even though she didn’t have much to do in the series? Definitely a missed opportunity…

I think a lot of Trek fans have a love-hate relationship with the creators, lol. I think Gene Roddenberry came up with some of the greatest ideas for television ever, but he also had a number of absolute stinkers. Berman and his crew made a lot of questionable decisions too, but on the whole, I’d rather have the full run of 90’s Trek that was produced under their watch–TNG, DS9, Voyager, and yeah, even Enterprise, than not.

76. Peter - March 3, 2011

#73 – Absolutely correct. Scenes were saturated with muzak that Berman insistented on. Turning what could have been some great dramatic TV into a monotonous bore. That was Berman considering Berman. Not the fans.

77. Simon - March 3, 2011

Remarks like #72 and others is why “listening to the fans” is often a bad idea.

78. Elvis Shatner - March 3, 2011

Egad! Berman will never admit to infusing Trek over time with the same blandness that permeates his personality. Much of McCarthy’s muzak could be heard on an elevator and would never be recognized for what it was.

Was the music from TOS over-the-top? At times, perhaps… But at least it was entertaining and memorable!

79. Phil - March 3, 2011

15. boborci – March 2, 2011

Don’t blame you. You have mentioned the need to have a thick skin in the business, but I think that having a bunch of on-line loudmouths constantly unloading on you would take it’s toll after a while.

80. DavidJ - March 3, 2011

While I kinda agree with Berman that Ron Jones’s more boisterious style probably wouldn’t have fit the richer, more sophisticated tone TNG took on later (and which I actually preferred), I also think he took it too far in the OTHER direction too.

There’s no reason the music had to be as flat and dull as it became. There should have been a middle-ground there between McCarthy’s style and Jones’s (and judging from the underrated score to Generations, I think McCarthy was fully capable of something more exciting).

81. Phil - March 3, 2011

Rick Berman is to be thanked for his efforts with the franchise. I doubt that anyone who slams him in this forum can look back on their body of work and proclaim “perfect, would not change a thing”, so cut the guy some slack for his retrospection. Same thing with the current crew – what Mr. Abrahms has created has rescued Trek, and they should be thanked as well.

82. Desstruxion - March 3, 2011

#5 SAID: I thought it odd that ’suddenly’ in Generation’s they had to have Kirk die. Just didn’t make sense to me, nor did the Nexus, which leaves me thinking there’s another Kirk stuck in it, since after all there is another Guinan in there too?????
————————————————————————-
That’s a good angle you have going on there. Maybe the real Kirk is still in the nexus and we only saw the copy die. PUT SHATNER IN THE NEXT MOVIE…..please.

Also, as far as a new series goes, the Romulan war would make a great arc. Set it on a Daedalus class ship with a whole new crew, make plans ahead of time to end it up in five seasons and get James Cawley to put it all together.

83. Phil - March 3, 2011

77. Simon – March 3, 2011

Agreed….

84. Richard Dawson's Ruffled Shirt - March 3, 2011

Gonna hijack the thread for a second and send birthday love out to Jimmy Doohan, in whatever frontier he’s flying about in… we miss you.

85. Hugh Hoyland - March 3, 2011

Happy Birthday Mr. Doohan where ever you may be.! :]

86. dmb1138 - March 3, 2011

Amen to that, Ruffled Shirt— Mr. Doohan, you are missed. Long Live Montgomery Scott!

87. captain_neill - March 3, 2011

Happy birthday To Jimmy Doohan, we miss you.

88. THX-1138 - March 3, 2011

Urff….I always cringe at these threads.

Enough Berman bashing. For the thousandth time:

TOS and TNG BOTH had their shortcomings. TOS only had 3 seasons to show us. TNG had over twice that long. And both had remarkably brilliant episodes, too. Berman did not kill Trek or even come remotely close. TV series, from time to time, get canceled. TOS did. TNG did. DS9 did. Voyager did. Enterprise did.

Now about this “possibly only 2″ comment from Bob Orci:

Are you kidding me? I will feel pretty ripped off if you beg-off without doing at least three. And not even entertaining the idea of a series. You can’t think of anything you would want to do for 15 years? That won’t help in the search for a spouse.

Anyway, that’s all just bluster and blow-hard on my part. The finer point of what I’m on about is that why start the whole process only to not see the vision fulfilled. One movie to introduce everyone to a new universe and then one adventure in it and then nothing more? What is the point? Why re-boot it at all? Maybe Manny Coto and Jonathan Frakes and Spiner and Stewart should form a production team and take the TV rights to Star Trek back. Do a Next-Next Gen show with the crew of the Enterprise F or something set 30 years after Nemesis. Point being, have the production manned by people who were involved in Star Trek, have talent, and might have some passion for the franchise.

(BTW, I am not suggesting that JJ, Orci et al have no talent or passion for Trek. But maybe I question their desire for involvement in the franchise and all that might entail)

89. Mattyb.uk - March 3, 2011

I couldn’t see myself doing anything for 18 years. I’ve been running a pub for 5 years and my ideas for themed nights are starting to get stagnent. Theres only so many sci-fi themed nights i can do. Also people should remember that Berman had his bosses to deal with and god only knows what kind of demands they have. I do hope that mr orci, mr kurtzman and mr abrams do a star trek tv show. Especially if they bring the wonderful Carlton Curse and Jeff Pinekar

90. jas_montreal - March 3, 2011

I think after this long while, its time to get off of Berman’s back.

What happened, happened.

91. CJS - March 3, 2011

I think Abrams’ court and Pine’s crew will do two more movies at the most (2012 and possibly 2015). All of them will be ready to move on after that. Trek will go dormant for about 5 years and reemerge re-imagined by the next hotshot producer in 2020, possibly as a new TV show (by then an integrated media. The whole notion of television will be replaced by something that combines TV and the internet.) I’m still hoping to see a Trek movie directed by Quentin Tarantino.

92. P Technobabble - March 3, 2011

I’m having a hard time thinking of any tv show that I actually liked the music for. I much prefer a grand, sweeping film score like that of TMP or TWOK. It seems to me that so much tv music is nothing more than a “cue card” that simply informs you what emotion you should feel during this or that scene. None of it sounds very inspired to my ears. I suppose a tv series doesn’t have the time nor the resources to produce film-quality music on a weekly basis, but that doesn’t make me like it any better.
As for Star Trek music, I always thought TOS music was too brassy, and some of those re-usable themes made me wince. The other Trek series’ music was too synthetic, for my taste, often sounding like New Age music.
IMO, of course…

93. Joshua C. - March 3, 2011

It would have been something nice had Berman and Co. ponied up the money to get Brando for Generations. If anything we would have been left some amusing anecdotes regarding his behavior off-screen, that and the writers would have altered that script to focus more on Soran as a character and as a threat; for one, because the Veridan system was populated by a pre-warp, and I think, pre-industrial society, and we know Mr. Brando has championed Native American rights, well it may have stood that the Veridians would have had a face and not simply a name on a report. Plus, we would have had some serious screen time between him and Kirk.

Mr. Orci, if you’re reading this, my wife and I love…LOVE Fringe, and if you ever have an episode that takes place in the alternate universe circa. 1994, please have a small marquee cameo of Generations starring Marlon Brando; just like you did with Eric Stoltz in Back to the Future.

94. keachick - March 3, 2011

I get tired of the Berman bashing. There was a lot of really good Star Trek, sci-fi, television produced in TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT and some of it not so good. I actually like Insurrection more than other Star Trek movies. It has some beautiful scenes in it. A lot of this bashing is based purely on subjective feelings of posters towards this or that movie or episode and not everyone agrees with those opinions.

I also get tired of the crystal ball gazing. Just let them get on with the next movie. Nobody knows what will come afterwards. Maybe nothing at all, then again, maybe another movie and/or TV series. Just too early to call it. Personally, I am just not that interested.

What does surprise (and shock, if that’s the right word) me is that Rick Berman has not watched the entire TOS series through ( two pilots and the three seasons of episodes). Somehow that feels “Not on at all”, “Not good enough”. He may not have known much about Star Trek, nor seen much initially, but after all this time, really?

I know that actors like Chris Pine didn’t know much about Star Trek, especially TOS, but then he was born 11 years AFTER TOS was cancelled. I hope that he and the other actors, writers etc have found time to watch all the episodes me at least once by now. We know that Karl Urban has seen most, if not all, more than once. He was watching reruns down in Wellington at the exact same time I was watching them up in Auckland on TV.

Chris Pine said he watched the entire first season of TOS (homework), then stopped but when he talked about an episode, I am sure it came from the third season. LOL Got to love that guy. Dear CP, if you have any queries, we are here to help. Have no fear – honestly.

95. ensign joe - March 3, 2011

@92

The Muppet Show :)

96. Bugs Nixon - March 3, 2011

The usual fan mantra is “Roddenberry’s vision, etc”. But really, he only had a germ of a good idea, which was taken and improved upon by many others. Basically, Roddenberry took the movie ‘Forbidden Planet’ as a basis, then added and embellished it with his own details.

The way this history is presented to us usually runs along the lines of: the network were a bunch of idiots and Roddenberry struggled against them – they felt the pilot was ‘too cerebral’ and wanted action and fist fights. Those executive fools… right? Well no actually, they were right. It did need battles and fist fights. It still does. Trek isn’t high art; it’s honest to goodness action adventure and with a little bit of intelligent philosophical fun thrown in.

Most of what made Trek good is attributable to Gene Coon, not Roddenberry. On TNG, the studio couldn’t wait to move Roddenberry on and let the team get on with it without his interference. Consider the amount of times Roddenberry would say ‘in the future there’s no conflict’ without accepting that drama literally is conflict…

Gene Coon for instance is hardly ever mentioned, it’s a tragedy that fans don’t know much about him. What made the movies good was Nick Meyer & Harve Bennett. Today what makes Trek good today is the Bad Robot team.

What made TNG good in the 80’s and 90’s was Michael Piller and Rick Berman – how quick people forget their influence…

This revisionist hate of Rick Berman is Star Trek’s equivalent of The Emperor’s New Clothes and it’s an insult to everything he achieved and everything the fans now have.

97. dubb - March 3, 2011

@94, totally right. It is subjective. When you’re dealing with anything creative, you’re going to have people who don’t like this or that. And when it’s something popular like Trek, you’re going to have a lot of people who don’t like this or that. A lot of fans feel this idea of Star Trek is a part of them, like they own a part of it, so a lot of fans are very passionate about their opinions and will never let go. It’s the nature of creativity and great ideas, and we should embrace the freedom to express our opinions. Rude bashing is one thing, but reasonable expression and discussion even years/decades down the road is alright by me. But, that’s just my opinion! ;)

98. keachick - March 3, 2011

#94 Yes. I agree about Fringe. Watched another episode last night (3 March). Very good. As I’ve noted before, I am not sure what series they are screening here at the moment in NZ, but it’s good. One of the best shows on at the moment.

However, like other good US television, like House, it is packed full of ads, which can be a real fun-killer. You guys must do something about the network/advertisers, whoever, spoiling the enjoyment of well-crafted television. Not good. I realise that producers etc have no control over how many ads get put on in between scene breaks, but the programmes have got shorter, with more opportunities for advertisers. It is worse than ever. (Just as well it comes to me free (to air) here, at the moment. To think that others have to pay for this shite. ). They will eventually shoot themselves and their gooses well and truly dead because potential viewers just won’t bother even with these programmes anymore. Enough already!

Sorry for the rant, but it really needs to be said. No doubt others have already said it…just adding my voice and expressing my dissatisfaction.

99. JKP - March 3, 2011

“Reveals that he didn’t know the original Star Trek when first hired and even by 2001 had still only seen “two-thirds to three-quarters” of it”

This explains much of the problem with Berman’s tenure and why he created and fostered such scholk…

100. AJ - March 3, 2011

One has to say that, despite a minefield’s worth of issues (not watching all the TOS eps? LAZY), RB had a reasonable run.

His wish that he had listened more to the fans is quite inconsistent with the fact that he blames a small group of us “hardcore fans” for screaming about the deaths of Kirk/Data.

This is called ‘hypocrisy,’ revealed in the interview quite clearly. The group was not small with regard to Kirk. He should have “paid more attention to the fans.”

101. Randy8 - March 3, 2011

“. . . Discussions . . . gay character . . . seeing two men . . . holding hands . . . not . . . effective way of dealing with it”

What “it”?! A gay character doesn’t need to be “handled” – it doesn’t need to be abstract! He just needs to BE – period.!

Since they’ve gone so far as to re-boot Spock and Uhura as a couple, there’s really no good reason why they couldn’t re-boot Chekov to be gay. He’s the perfect choice! No need to introduce someone new in order to have a gay character!

102. Harry Ballz - March 3, 2011

For those of you wanting Tom Hanks in the next movie…..that may not happen because Bob Orci is pretty disgusted with Mr. Hanks’s delusional take on the Kennedy assassination. Hanks actually believes Oswald acted alone and is currently preparing a TV miniseries to that effect. We can’t let someone with such a myopic point of view like Hanks play a starfleet captain, can we?

103. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

102. People can have differences and still work together. It’s not unknown. Everything to political views to supporting another football team. Tom certainly has plently of other interests that would appeal to someone involved in Star Trek. That’s pretty much all that would matter. Being on the same page as far as the work is concerned.

104. Christopher_Roberts - March 3, 2011

Correction – Everything FROM political views to etc, etc…

I don’t really have any strong view on whether Tom Hanks should ever be in Star Trek or not. I think his opportunity has probably passed though.

105. Phil - March 3, 2011

102. Harry Ballz – March 3, 2011

I still beleive he acted alone to, despite all the reading that was referred to me here. Hopefully I won’t be ba…………………………………………………………..

106. Pierre - March 3, 2011

Breaking news:

The Shat will receive the 2011 Governor General Award this year. This comes with $25,000 purse from the Canadian Arts Council.

Congratulations Mr. Shatner.

107. rtrj - March 3, 2011

#69 I agree!

Enterprise is now is one of my favorites (all 4 seasons), I wish
a continuation of the 4th season could be filmed with the “tougher” Archer with a dash of the “Awe” of exploration.

108. Captain Karl - March 3, 2011

Brando would’ve made Picard an offer he couldn’t refuse ;)

109. Damian - March 3, 2011

A few things–

If I’m correct, I believe as of now Rick Berman has seen the entire original series (don’t forget, Roddenberry specifically hired Berman because he had not seen the original series, he wanted some new ideas, not retreads of the original series).

I liked the original series music, but when you get down to it, a lot of the music was reused from earlier episodes. The later series had original music most of the time (though I agree it was not particularly inspiring a lot of the time). The movie scores were all good though. I can’t think of any movies that had bad music. Goldsmith, Horner, Rosenmann, Eidelman, McCarthy and Giacchino all did terrific work in the movies. (My favorite will always be Goldsmith, but no one did a bad job).

110. Damian - March 3, 2011

For a Star Trek series, I think you need someone that is willing to devote a lot of time to it. I think the Abrams team wants to be involved with a great deal more than just Star Trek. In a way, I’d rather they not produce a TV show for Star Trek because of that very reason. They simple don’t have the time to devote to a week in and week out series and make a quality Star Trek show. .

However, that fact also makes them ideal for the movies. They can make a movie with mass appeal. For a motion picture you have to do that.

I loved Nemesis and Insurrection. However I am a hardcore fan. I can see how a non-fan would have difficulty getting into those films. They were made with Trekkies in mind. You need more to make a successful Star Trek film. Having just Trekkies in a movie audience will not be enough. It’s great for a weekly TV series, but not for a movie.

Re; Marlon Brando–some have commented why didn’t Berman pony up the big bucks. I think people forget that he had a little thing known as a studio to deal with. They only want to spend x-amount of dollars on a film. Paramount basically tells you how much they are willing to spend and that is what you have to work with.

111. keachick - March 3, 2011

Malcolm McDowell was just fine as Soran. At least McDowell has good diction, unlike Marlon Brando, from the little that I have seen of his work.

112. keachick - March 3, 2011

“Reveals that he didn’t know the original Star Trek when first hired and even by 2001 had still only seen “two-thirds to three-quarters” of it, but that he relied on people like the Okudas, David Rossi and Manny Coto to “point us in the right direction when we screwed up””

No, he had not watched all of TOS. Lazy, even a little disrespectful, especially after all that time. Still, he did some very good television.

113. Vultan - March 3, 2011

#111

You must be judging Brando’s “diction” from The Godfather and On the Waterfront. Believe it or not, the man—the ACTOR—could speak in a normal voice.

114. dmduncan - March 3, 2011

102. Harry Ballz – March 3, 2011

Don’t know if he’s the same Edwin Black who wrote about the Chicago plot Bob referenced, but I found him because of that, and this guy is ON it.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/one-mainframe-to-rule-them-all.html

115. Phil - March 3, 2011

110. Damian – March 3, 2011

By the time Nemesis hit the big screen, the studio was aiming these flicks square at Trekkies, figuring they would at very worst, break even. When the Trek audience failed to show, the franchise was put on hold until JJ came along. There was nothing in these characters to draw an audience, or to compel an audience to care about them, which is what JJ had to do with the firat flick. If he builds on that the franchise could very well be on it’s way to revival – if not, and it falls into fond farewells and cameo appearances, the franchise is doomed.

Brando was on the tail end of his career – would have been nice to see him, but unless he could have pulled it off Alec Guniess style, if would have turned into a bad joke about Trek being a haven for washed up actors trying to breath some life into their careers.

116. the Quickening - March 3, 2011

#18

I’m not trying to be insulting, but this is potentially great news! I was never a fan of the B-universe approach and it’s great to know the chances are good we’ll only see 2 movies in that universe. At least I’m hoping.

117. Vultan - March 3, 2011

I find it funny all this talk of TNG being “different” and “bland” when compared to TOS. Watch the first season (if you can bear it). They were trying very hard to be like TOS, all the characters running around and yelling their lines, cheesy alien planets, even remaking one of the original episodes, “The Naked Time”=”The Naked Now.” With a few exceptions (“11001001″ “The Big Goodbye” “Heart of Glory”), the results throughout that season were pretty terrible.

Thank goodness they changed direction in season two. Riker’s beard may have had something to do with it. ;)

118. Phil - March 3, 2011

117. Vultan – March 3, 2011

They were, and yet they wern’t. I seem to recall some yawner’s of lectures from the good Starfleet folks about how humanity had “evolved” into something special. The Ferengi were a joke – and I’m assuming they were meant to be a caricature of the evil capitalists – something to compare and contrast off of human improvement.

After being told how the Prime Directive was the holy of holys, the crew would then find some reason to ignore it. Oh, well….

119. Phil - March 3, 2011

116. the Quickening – March 3, 2011

If they only make two, then that means nothing after that. I for one would like to see this fleshed out a bit more.

120. bill hiro - March 3, 2011

I always enjoyed Ron Jones’ music for TNG and missed it when he was sh!tcanned by HRH Berman. Wasn’t there a box set of every one of Ron’s TNG scores released recently? Somebody obviously liked his bombast.

121. bill hiro - March 3, 2011

Oh yeah – a 14 disc box set

http://trekmovie.com/2010/08/07/exclusive-details-on-fsm-ron-jones-tng-14-cd-box-set/

122. Damian - March 3, 2011

117–Each of the shows took about 2 to 3 seasons for it to catch on for me. When TNG first came out, I wasn’t sure I was going to like it. It started to catch on for me with the season 1 episode “Conspiracy.” I think the writers actually wanted a real conspiracy but Gene Roddenberry refused to go along. There were some great episodes in season 2 and by 3 they were hitting their stride. I also noticed the special effects started improving. It used to drive me nuts in the first 2 seasons the way the stars moved behind planets. It really looked cheesy. But it gradually got better.

For Deep Space Nine it took until they brought in the Maquis in season 2 and later the Dominion before it won me over. I actually did not watch Voyager until the series ended. That was probably the weakest show, but I did like the fact that they were completely disconnected from Starfleet and the Federation. Really, every week was exploration. I just wished they took more risks with it. I think it was Brannon Braga who wanted to show more conflict betweeen the Maquis and Starfleet crew, and show Voyager having to deal with more adversity (a la Year of Hell) but for some reason that never panned out. Enterprise ended before it’s time. It had just really hit its stride and was finally getting back to basics when it was cancelled. If there was one show I wish someone (Manny Coto, perhaps) would bring back, it’s Enterprise. I was starting to get exited by season 4 because they were finally dealing with issues that were leading up to the original series.

123. Vultan - March 3, 2011

#118

Oh yeah, because alien charactures of human foibles and inconsistencies concerning the Prime Directive neeeeever happened in TOS. ;)

124. boborci - March 3, 2011

116. just because we are gone doesn’t mean that universe wouldnt’t continue!

125. Vultan - March 3, 2011

#124

So you think the light will stay on after the fridge door is closed? Yeah, good luck with that.

126. Red Dead Ryan - March 3, 2011

124

The universe just wouldn’t be the same without you! You’re a demigod around these parts, Bob!

127. Rocket Scientist - March 3, 2011

Soran Brando…I get it!!

128. Red Dead Ryan - March 3, 2011

127

Yeah, but someone might have mistaken him for “Saurian Brandy” if they had misread the script…..

129. VZX - March 3, 2011

124. boborci – March 3, 2011

I would love to see that universe continue through a new TV series. Have it take place in the same time period as the Pine/Kirk era, but not on the Enterprise. Maybe..space station? Like DS K-7? (The one from the tribbles ep)

Even an animated series would be cool….

130. Iva - March 3, 2011

Newcomers will milk it while it lasts and move on to the next project, the damage done is irrelevant. They don’t have to live with it or clean up the shit, the fandom does as it always did.
As far as the past star trek series are concerned, never had a problem with them, they built over, around and – in case of enterprise – under the original series, with a blessing. So far nobody in their right mind thought of usurping the core and placing random roleplay as equal to original, with a canon stamp no less.

131. Basement Blogger - March 3, 2011

@ 42 Dom , I ask you, “What is Star Trek?”

Dom says, “The remarks attributed to Brent Spiner couldn’t be more wrong. When Gene’s dead you don’t give a damn what he would think about the show! The man’s dead, he’s not living in this world and reacting to what’s going on in it! Berman’s slavish adherence to the supposed ‘Gene’s Vision’ smothered creativity in Star Trek, trapping it in a 1980s production timewarp”

Wow, you don’t care about Gene Roddenberry’s vision. Then the question should become, “What is Star Trek?” Intelligent science fiction about ideas and philosophy as critic Roger Ebert says it’s about? Or should Paramount turn it into Star Wars? Maybe they should tell the public to ignore “The City on the Edge of Forever”, “The Doomsday Machine” or the “EVIL” Rick Berman’s productions or “The Inner Light” “The Chase”, “Tapestry”or DS9’s “The Visitor.” Maybe it’s too much like Star Trek of the original series. Too intellligent for a “modern” audience. Maybe Paramount should have turmed Star Trek into Flash Gordon.

Dom says, “Berman and his mob stole Star Trek from the people and kept it for a diminishing, quasi-religious fanbase. JJ Abrams gave Trek back to the mainstream, at which it should always have been aimed!”

Did you see the end of Star Trek (2009) and who it was dedicated to? It was dedicated to Gene Roddenberry. I suggest you read this website move often. Gene Roddenberry wanted a series to appeal to a mainstream audience but he also wanted SUBSTANCE. (TrekMovie on a letter by Roddenberry below.)

Even J.J. Abrams looked to at least part of Roddenberry’s vision to keep.. “Abrams says he was also drawn to the project because he believed in-and wanted to-evangelize-Trek’s unabashed idealism.” Entertainment Weekly 10–24 -08 pg. 29.

I fell in love with Star Trek when I saw the original series. It was about ideas, whether they were philosophy or science. Philosophy and science are not stuck in the sixities. They exist with us today. I will always argue for Gene Roddenberry’s vision as the basis for Star Trek. You can make all the Flash Gordon like shows and slap the name Star Trek to it. It won’t be Star Trek.

Gene wanted an accesible show but also wanted it to be of substance.
http://trekmovie.com/2010/11/30/letter-of-note-gene-roddenberry-defends-star-trek-the-cage-pilot/

132. Thorbury - March 3, 2011

Marlon Brando is an inimitable, unmatched talent as far as acting goes.

But did you see him in 1994? What would his great scheme have entailed; rolling around like a beachball until the Nexus entered his gravitational field? Maybe he could’ve slung pies at Capt. Kirk, or had a pie eating contest with Capt. Picard?

133. DeShonn Steinblatt - March 3, 2011

124. You can’t leave yet, Bob! You’re all heroes. Your semi-reboot forced dozens of middle-aged bachelors to snap out of their wasted daydream lives and face the real world. Sure, they’re cranky now, but in time they’ll thank you for it!

134. Iva - March 3, 2011

If it is still 3rd in your time zone, Doohan would have been 91 today.
You might want to eat a sandwich in his name. It is his new thing, his only thing now. Besides a sidekick.

135. keachick - March 3, 2011

“Newcomers will milk it while it lasts and move on to the next project, the damage done is irrelevant. They don’t have to live with it or clean up the shit, the fandom does as it always did.”

What on earth are you talking about? This is a fictional show. It’s not like some jets bombed or an earthquake shook your city’s sewerage systems to smitherenes and now there is shit all over the place…

Since Star Trek DS9, Voyager and Enterprise were all produced after Gene Roddenberry’s death on 24 October 1991, how do you know they had his blessing or anybody else’s for that matter? Majel Barrett Roddenberry was happy to be this movie’s computer voice and their son was on the set sometimes as well, apparently happy with the movie’s progress.

136. boborci - March 3, 2011

125. if we take off after 2, and two works, and the cast is all signed up for a third movie, what do you thik will happen? Reboot? good luck with that.

137. Vultan - March 3, 2011

#136

Oh, I’m sure the third movie will be made if the second is profitable—ahem, I mean successful. My point in the previous post was that these universes you writers create routinely get remade, rebooted, and so on—especially in today’s Hollywood. Just the nature of the beast, you know.

Word is Warner Bros. has secured the rights to Blade Runner, and they’re already talking prequel or sequel. Fortunately, there’s a no-remake/no-reboot clause in the contract. Yep, somebody had their integrity cap on! :D

138. Red Dead Ryan - March 3, 2011

136

Well, if you guys quit, as does J.J, its quite likely that the cast will opt out and Paramount will either fold the franchise for awhile or recast and reboot the whole thing.

139. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

^ I hear they are dumb enough to to that with spiderman.

I hope they wouldn’t do it with trek.

Would it not be wise to actually plan an exit strategy rather than just go after two or three movies. That is to say bring in at least key members of the next team to be involved on the last film.

Fresh ideas are good but so is congruency.

140. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

My comment was directed at #136, sorry.

141. Phil - March 3, 2011

136. boborci – March 3, 2011

Oh, I imagine Paramount will find others. There is other talent in Hollywood, after all. After all, you guys pitched a concept, and they bought it.

I think a few folks remember Superman III and IV, and would really like to forget them.

142. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

@ 137 “Oh, I’m sure the third movie will be made if the second is profitable—ahem, I mean successful.”

???

143. DeShonn Steinblatt - March 3, 2011

137.
there’s a no-remake/no-reboot clause in the contract

There isn’t.

144. Red Dead Ryan - March 3, 2011

People also remeber “Aliens” 3 and 4, “Batman Forever”, “Batman & Robin” and would really like to forget those as well!

On the other hand, “Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King” and “The Bourne Ultimatum” prove that the third movie in a trilogy can be great, and even regarded as the best. But anyway, we should wait and see how part 2 turns out before talking about the third film…

145. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

Batman needed to be remade. The burton movies were crap, you just could not continue those on.

146. chrisfawkes.com - March 3, 2011

Now perhaps they could get Shatner in for the third movie and title that The Return of the King.

147. Vultan - March 3, 2011

#142

Let me clarify. Profit equals success in Hollywood. If the brand makes money, the brand will be put on the fast track to copy town. Quality really isn’t that terribly important. If it was, “Batman and Robin” would’ve never been made.

#143

According to this, there is (In a way. Not sure of the exact legalese):
http://screenrant.com/blade-runner-prequel-sequel-warner-bros-benk-104160/

148. Anthony Pascale - March 3, 2011

If Star Trek 2012 is a success we can be sure that there will be a third movie set in the new universe with the same cast. Ideally with the same creative team too, but Paramount would do it regardless.

I sure hope Bob goes for three, but if he and Alex do, they would be the first to get three star trek feature screenplay credits. Nick Meyer deserves three (II, IV, VI), but was uncredited for ST II, Bennett has two screenplay and two story credits and Moore/Braga have 2 screenplay credits. Berman has four story credits, but no screenplay credits

149. Buzz Cagney - March 3, 2011

Yeh, do at least the three, Bob and Alex. I know you are keen to revert to being *just* a fan, Bob, but you have the baby now.
Don’t walk out before you’ve set some solid foundations.

As for any new TV show which, I hope, is at least 3 or 4 years away (sorry Vults!) I hope its set in the new timeline.
Some good scope for new and interesting stories.

150. Phobos - March 3, 2011

Rick Berman is in my eyes one of the great thinkers of our time.
I love this man’s mind, his imaginative and writing genius, and should he wish to write again for a new ST series, I would applaud it.

151. Cygnus-X1 - March 4, 2011

“There is no error so monstrous that it fails to find defenders among the ablest men.”

— Lord Acton (10 January 1834 – 19 June 1902)

152. Geek_Girl - March 4, 2011

@129
Have you been reading my mind? Stop it. Don’t make me get the tin foil out.

153. Phobos - March 4, 2011

“Rick Berman is in my eyes one of the great thinkers of our time.”

– Lord Phobos (xx December 19xx – 04 March 2012+)

154. MJ - March 4, 2011

“Dismisses critiques that he “killed” Kirk and Data, and says that it is only some hardcore fans that most fans are not “hypercritical””

My message to the A-hole Rick Berman: you killed them and I DISMISS YOU — you Roddenberry wannabe overrated studio suit.

155. keachick - March 4, 2011

Bob Orci did not say that he would be opting out. He just would not do the same stuff for 18 solid years. That makes sense. If Star Trek 2012 is successful and I really hope that it is better and does better than the 2009 one, presumably the next movie would be out no later than 2015. I think that, all in all, he will have spent about 10 years working within the Star Trek franchise. That is a lot less than 18 years.
Have I read it all correctly, Bob?

Also, has Bob Orci ever said that he was keen to revert to being *just* a fan? I do not recall reading anything here.

Have I read it corr

156. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

It doesn’t matter who does the next movie.

Yes I know I will have probably have some gripes with the script, I will still be there.

157. keachick - March 4, 2011

As I said before, killing off Kirk was a joint decision and a bad one. Later, they made another bad decision, killing off Data, although he does have a dumbed down version which could receive an intellect transplant.

To be honest, nothing surprises me with Paramount. It seems to have an uncanny knack of crapping on its golden goose (and the fans as well). Those studio suits need to be watched like hawks.

Somebody asked why I do not seem that upset over the death of Kirk in Generations. Well, I guess I got over my anger and grief a long time ago, when as a child I found out that Star Trek TOS had been cancelled. I know this because I actually wrote a letter to the broadcaster at the time, the NZBC, asking when we would be seeing the fourth series of Star Trek on TV in NZ and could we see repeats of programmes that we had already seen. They replied saying that they had no plans to repeat any episodes, that the series had been cancelled and that they had screened every single Star Trek episode that had been made. I was shattered and gobsmacked – no more Captain Kirk, men with pointed ears and grumpy doctors, no more Enterprise, no more funny looking planets, no more tribbles etc etc. My family could not believe it either. The US studio actually cancels/stops making one of the few, if not the best TV programme to come out of the USA at that time. Unbelievable!

It was not until 10 years later did I see the first rerun of TOS…

158. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

In regards to the death of Kirk, the original way they planned to kill Kirk was really bad.

In the original ending Kirk gets shot in the back by Soran, at least the ending we got had Kirk die a hero and gave his life for millions.

Yes there could have been a better way but I would be raging more if they went with the original ending. It’s on the DVD.

159. Cygnus-X1 - March 4, 2011

Things can always be worse.

Even an abominable travesty like Generations could have been worse.

160. Hugh Hoyland - March 4, 2011

Dont quote this as fact, its just what I read at the time. But Shatner seemed a little indifferent to that fact that Kirk was going to get killed in interviews before the release of Generations (the news had long before been leaked). At the time I thought it kinda strange, I mean he was really that tired of doing it to go along with such an obvious (to me) copy of Spocks death in TWOK.

But he seemed to be quite ok with it, despite warning’s from close sources that it may not be such a good idea. After Generations was done, I read about Shatner pitching a story to Paramount. It had him in the next TNG story, and it did include the Borg bringing him back to life, and him once again teaming up with picard to defeat them. (I think the story was eventually expanded into a novel by Shatner).

Sorta like “Star Trek 8: The search for Kirk.” Well the studio liked the borg part, but his, not so much. And they went the way of FC. Anyway, I think its possible he took a gamble and lost on that one, and unfortunately got left out in the cold as far as Star Trek goes. But again I could be way off, so who really knows, just stuff Ive read over the years.

161. Buzz Cagney - March 4, 2011

#155 yes, Bob once said he found it a bit difficult ‘being behind the curtain’ I believe was the phrase. The suggestion being he missed the fan experience of not knowing what was going to happen.
Trust me, I don’t make this stuff up! lol Well, not usually. :-D

162. Buzz Cagney - March 4, 2011

He did follow it up with a ‘not that i’m complaining’ comment!

163. James - March 4, 2011

Regarding the death of Kirk whilst not the blaze of glory everyone hoped for it was poignant in the fact Kirk stated in the films he knew he would always die alone.

164. Damian - March 4, 2011

Kirk’s death in Generations could have been better. I always believed they should have stressed that his death saved the lives of millions (Veridian IV) and he saved the lives of the Enterprise crew. I almost forgot about Verdian IV by the end of the film. He was key to helping Picard stop Soran. No Kirk, no saving Veridian. And as 163–he did not die literally alone, but he was alone at that time. His closest friends were not with him.

It also bugs me when people make Shatner to be some sort of victim. At the time he was happy to do it. He could have vetoed it at any time. Berman and co. needed Shatner. Shatner certainly did not need them. He said good bye at the end of Star Trek VI. Had he not wanted to die in Generations, he simply could have said no thanks and walked away. We can complain about his death and how it was handled. But please, Shatner was no victim here. He went into it with eyes open. Now he has to live with the consequences of that in the fact that it is highly unlikely he will be in the next film.

165. Damian - March 4, 2011

124–I certainly hope you guys stay on for a full trilogy. I think you have enough creative juices to put out a 3rd movie.

I think if Star Trek (2012) is successful, they will no doubt approve a 3rd with or without the Abrams team. But I think it will take 3 movies to establish the framework of this alternate universe. I do have a feeling that it will be very hard to keep the cast and crew together beyond that, however. I get the feeling that Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, et al. are not interested in staying in Star Trek as long as the original cast. I think like the writing team, they have varied interests and will not be interested in being typecast in any one role. I strongly suspect that come time for a 4th movie (should their success continue), Paramount/CBS will have to look in a new direction, either in cast or overall characters.

166. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

124. Bob Orci – No offence intended… but everything I loved about Star Trek would lead me to restore the original universe. I wouldn’t even need 0.6 seconds to think about it. If there’s a series of dramatic events and some character development for Kirk, Spock and McCoy along that route, so much the better.

167. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

166 (cont) I believe it is possible for both universe fans to be catered for and eventually everything resolved into being one and the same thing.

168. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

166 (and 3/4) I don’t see why it would involve letting go of Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto and the rest either… unless that was their decision. All that Star Trek 2009 proves is that recasting can be acceptable, if done carefully. The same goes for evolving production values, as the split between those who like and dislike how the NCC-1701 was realised both inside and out.

169. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

124. Right at the end of Star Trek 2009, when Nero and the Narada was comsumed by the black hole, how many long term fans sitting in the audience do you suppose thought… “Okay. Here we go. This is the part when it resets and suddenly time will be restored. Just leave us with this cast in place, manning a new highly detailed take on the original look Enterprise they had been keeping a massive secret.”

170. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

155. Come on. It’s not like the new film writers, directors, producers (what have you) think about Star Trek twenty-four-seven. It’s just one string to their bow. They work on other screenplays for film and television, most of them closer to resembling reality. Having a hand in writing 3 movies between 2006 and whenever they choose to give it somebody else… that’s not even remotely comparable to what Rick Berman put himself through over 18 years. He sacrificed a lot and obviously got rewarded for it, but deep down inside probably never got the recognition he wanted. You can tell that from his dignant response to being seen just another suit working in Paramount, hiring and firing but not being involved in creation of something.

171. Frederick, the Trek Scrapbook Guy - March 4, 2011

Sure am glad he wasn’t running things on TOS or we wouldn’t have the wonderful soundtrack music that is so classic.

172. Phil - March 4, 2011

146. chrisfawkes.com – March 3, 2011

If you like him at 80, you will love him at 84….assuming he hasn’t headed off to that great shipyard in the sky by then….

173. Phil - March 4, 2011

169. Christopher_Roberts – March 4, 2011

My answer would be, the number of fans, in theater, who were wearing their Starfleet uniforms. No one else was hoping for the reset button to be hit because that is lazy ass storytelling, and plays to all the fanboys in the audience. If the last movie was aimed at that audience, it makes about 45 million instead of the 450 million it actually produced (so far)..

I’ve read that DVD sales/rentals topped 100 million a couple of months ago.

174. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

173. I’ve never worn a Starfleet uniform or been to a convention. Although I do own a TNG communicator pin and often wear it on my coat. :)

I think you’re attitude is just as coloured by your dislike of what came before, just as mine is by an emotional investment in that universe for many decades.

Just 10% of the possible gross, simply because after introducing all the icons, it suddenly fits back into what came before? Nah, I don’t buy that. I doubt I ever will.

175. chrisfawkes.com - March 4, 2011

Berman just looks guilty.

That photo looks like a man who has had to bear the weight of having killed off Star Treks greatest captain.

176. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

174. pedantly picking up on my own punctuation…

Your NOT you’re

177. JimJ - March 4, 2011

Ron Jones’ overall music=fresh, new ideas, inspiring, exciting.
Rick Berman’s overall producing & writing=stale, recycled ideas, underwhelming, boring.

ENOUGH SAID!

178. NuFan - March 4, 2011

It’s obvious that Star Trek 3 will be out in 2016 for the 50th anniversary publicity whirlwind. That will be 11 years after the death of the old universe. What percentage of worldwide ticket buyers will even care which universe it’s in by that point? What percentage even care now?

There might be a third universe by then but I agree that a handful of whiny bachelors are never going to get Star Trek dragged back to the way it used to be.

If there were even a slight demand for old style Trek there would have been a new series by now. It’s been 6 long years since the last one so where is the huge demand for more of the same old thing?

179. Phil - March 4, 2011

174. Christopher_Roberts – March 4, 2011

Not entirely sure where you got the idea I don’t like pre 2009 Trek. I grew up watching TOS, it’s great stuff for what it is. All of the series and movies that followed all had their cringe-worthy moments, but I tuned in often.
What gets me going is this nostalgia some continue to hold for about what this show “is”. The current product is 95% true to the TOS, yet there is tons of virtual ink spilled complaining that if we don’t get back to what it looked like in thie 60’s, then this is a disaster. This could not be further from the truth. If the “icon” movie were ever made, it would need to be direct to video, because it would be a box office disaster, that’s just a business decision. Trek 2009 has made 100 million id DVD sales/rentals. Phase II gets tons of fan love on this page, and they can’t give it away. That, by itself, is all the evidence you need that there is no market for a “icon/canon/make things right” movie, except for die hard core, which is a tiny fraction of the available audience. I’m not opposed to continuity/canon, but not at the expense of sacraficing the franchise.

180. boborci - March 4, 2011

166. u cant – u dont have all the original actors.

181. Phil - March 4, 2011

@180…

Oh, come on now. Letting a little thing like age and death stand in the way of a 60’s flashback. CGI is a wonder thing, just ask George Lucas.

Yeah, I know I’m going to burn in Trek hell for that….

182. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

179. I see that I’m going to have to post again. I don’t really have enough time in the short break I’m on to fully explain myself. But you know, that label you apply to me of wanting Star Trek 2009 to be exactly like an episode of New Voyages is too simplistic. That somehow a film depicting the early days of Kirk, Spock and McCoy would have to be a lovingly crafted recreation of a bunch of 60’s plywood sets and jelly bean buttons everywhere… Had the original idea for the sixth Star Trek film happened, you know that Starfleet Academy idea Harve Bennett had, do you really think they would’ve gone that route either? Of course not…

183. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

180. *sigh* There’s a hole in your logic.

Prime Spock recognises nu young Kirk and he isn’t William Shatner. Go figure.

184. Phil - March 4, 2011

183.
Conversly, new Kirk dosen’t recognize old Spock. You would think new Kirk would be thinking, “man, take away the wrinkles and grey hair and you look like that pain in the ass back on the Enterprise”. Which of course suggests that these events had to occur for this crew to bond together.

See how easy it is to twist something to make it work? This entire debate is nothing to lose sleep over, just enjoy it. It’s storytelling and entertainment.

185. P Technobabble - March 4, 2011

I have a difficult time understanding the headstrong resistance to the new universe. If the original Star Trek began with THIS movie, if the original Star Trek was THIS, no one would be complaining since they wouldn’t have any past Trek to judge it against. So, just because there was a different Trek in the beginning automatically, or inherently, infers that it cannot change? In fact, Star Trek changed plenty from TOS to TNG, and DS9 was quite a change from TNG. It seems to me when Star Trek started looking like TNG again — with Voyager and Enterprise, and maybe TOS to some extent — it grew more tired. After the lackluster response to Nemesis, and the painful fall of Enterprise, I believe a huge number of people wondered if Star Trek could be brought back to life. JJ & Co. managed to do so in a pretty big way, and the vast majority of critics and movie-goers approved.
It seems to me that Star Trek had nowhere left to go, other than to rehash itself movie after movie, episode after episode. By breaking the stifling box of the original universe, the characters can now be a bit different, the enemies can be a bit different, and characters and situations can exist that did not exist in the prime universe. For a franchise that is over 40 years old, I don’t see how this can be a bad thing.

186. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

183. I suppose I do enjoy it, but at this point… only in a macocistic sort of way!

Why would Kirk recognise Spock as an old man, anyway? He’s only known for a few days. No my point to TPTB, is if don’t buy the actors as playing the same characters you’ve always known, there’s no hope for you! At a certain point, you don’t really need an alternative reality as an explanation for that.

Again, Nimoy Spock recognises Pine Kirk… as the same guy who took the Kobayshi Maru test three times and had a unique solution to it.

I’ll leave the rest for others to work out, what that ought to mean about how interchangable the universes are.

187. dmduncan - March 4, 2011

136. boborci – March 3, 2011

125. if we take off after 2, and two works, and the cast is all signed up for a third movie, what do you thik will happen? Reboot? good luck with that.

Seriously? You thinking about not staying for # 3?

188. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

Actually he already thought he was Captain of the Enterprise! So interchangable in appearance, just months prior to “Where No Man Has Gone Before” maybe?

189. Damian - March 4, 2011

188–Star Trek (2009) actually took place several years before “Where No Man Has Gone Before”. That episode took place around 2265 while the movie was 2258. Spock must not have been fully cognizant of the date.

190. Phil - March 4, 2011

185. P Technobabble – March 4, 2011

There was huge change from TOS to TMP. There seems to be an attitude among the canonistas that now that the franchise has had its financial short in the arm, we can go back to cranking out product a little more in line with what THEY want. No NO NO!! Right now, Trek is a one hit wonder, based on the 2009 results. There needs to be some consistancy in turning out product that will appeal to a general audience, bucause it’s been shown that the core fan base is not substantial enough to keep the franchise afloat financially. If the next movie does not exceed the last one, theny the studios will take a harder look at future projects, and you can kiss off ever seeing Trek on TV again. It’s really important for this next flick to be a success, so barring a major screw up from JJ and crew, the fan base needs to take a step back from bitching about timelines and think a bit more about the franchise as a whole, if they ever hope to see anything new beyond 2012.

191. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

189. Yeah, I know the dates. My point was more or less Old Spock does recognise Young Kirk and why I think this reply…

166. u cant – u dont have all the original actors.

…about why you couldn’t eventually have had the two universes reconverge, is nonsense.

Sorry, Bob. But it is… at least in the fictional sense of Kirk being a character, played different people – the first and most famous of which was William Shatner.

192. boborci - March 4, 2011

191. Was responding to your quote:

“but everything I loved about Star Trek would lead me to restore the original universe.”

And I was saying, you can’t completely restore the original universe. That’s all.

193. Damian - March 4, 2011

191–My response had to do with what you said about Spock thinking Kirk was still in command, which at that point in time of the prime universe he was still a few years away from. Anyway we’re quibbling.

I understand why the team wrote the story the way they did. It would have been very difficult to write a prequel movie within the parameters of existing canon. But there is always part of me that would have loved to have seen a genuine prequel movie set in the prime universe using events to link “The Cage” to “Where No Man Has Gone Before.”

However, that would have fell into the trap of some of the other movies of being only for Trekkies. After all, at that time, there was no Dr McCoy, no Chekov, no Uhura, and Sulu was a physicist. No one but Star Trek fans know who Lee Kelso, Lt Alden, Dr Mark Piper or even Gary Mitchell is.

194. Phil - March 4, 2011

193.

…or Harry Mudd, or Cyrno Jones, or Yeoman Rand, for that matter. Trek 2009 represents a fresh start, and as such screams for fresh character development, fresh allies, and fresh villians. Trek has had a very bad habit of nutering it’s villians or supporting cast as the situations call for it. All I ask is whatever direction the writers take these characters, do it looking forward and maintain some consistancy. If the audience can bond with these characters (yeah, even the bad guys, Darth Vader has his fans) the health of the franchise will be assured. 16 years passed between Star Wars movies, and it didn’t hurt that franchise any.

195. the Quickening - March 4, 2011

124. boborci – March 3, 2011
116. just because we are gone doesn’t mean that universe wouldnt’t continue!

True. I was just thinking out loud, hoping future movie and TV producers, given the options between both universes, would choose universe A again. That choice becomes easier for them to make if movies, TV series concerning Universe B don’t dominate TREK’s body of work, hence my joy to hear potentially only two movies from your team. Not wishing you ill will, but the B-universe concept just doesn’t work for me. I would have rather seen 5-10 canon violations and errors in the A-universe, than none in B. It’s a personal thing. The device just comes off as too contrived and gimmicky for my taste.

I will say this, you guys really love the alternate universe concept. I hear FRINGE is doing it, and Abrams pulled it in the final season of FELICITY, which just ruined the show for me. You have the reins, so good luck.

196. ensign joe - March 4, 2011

“If the original Star Trek began with THIS movie, if the original Star Trek was THIS, no one would be complaining since they wouldn’t have any past Trek to judge it against.”

No one would complain because no one would care.

197. boborci - March 4, 2011

195

the alternate universe concept is only ever going to be an element in Trek 09, therefore it wont be gimmicky for you next time.

198. ensign joe - March 4, 2011

If its of any interest, today on NPR Science Friday they covered multiverse theory in a segment:

Brian Greene on The Hidden Reality
http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201103043

199. ensign joe - March 4, 2011

probably should be in the science update here on trekmovie since its relevant ;)

200. THX-1138 - March 4, 2011

#192

Sure you can. If you can use a macguffin like red matter to create the alternate time-line to begin with, you can find one to straighten it out. And you don’t have to CGI the old actors into place; the new actors are fine (well, I’m not a big fan of Pegg’s Scotty, but I can live with it). I think you are not giving the fans enough credit to accept change. But that doesn’t mean that we all have to like the changes. If perhaps the alternate universe bore at least a little more resemblance to the original one it might have been more palatable. At least to me. And yes, I understand you aren’t making movies for me. It just appeared that a lot of the changes existed for changes sake in the last film. Some of it seemed to be done just to look cool. And some of it seemed like less an homage to the original as a “putting your own stamp’ on the franchise. Nothing wrong with that. But if I start to decide that the NuTrek is something I just can’t get into I have HUNDREDS of hours of Star Trek to watch in the Prime universe. But that’s not something that would be good for the Trek franchise either; to have the long-time fans depart because of the new direction the franchise has taken.

I just feel that the perception will be that if the original director doesn’t wish to be involved, along with the writing and producing team, in seeing the proposed or rumored trilogy through to the end, then why should anyone else?

Ugh, I’m rambling. Do what you like. The world won’t end.

201. boborci - March 4, 2011

200

LOl!

not giving enough credit to accept the change?! how far we have come from the cries of heresy for even thinking of recasting the originals!

incidently, i would love nothing more than to work on Trek for the rest of my life. I just dont think that would be good for trek and i just hope i have the presence of mind and the will power to relieve myself of duty when it is clear i am hanging on for the wrong reasons.

202. the Quickening - March 4, 2011

#197

It will be hard to suspend my disbelief, or ignore what has gone before, but I’ll do my best and keep an open mind. Thanks.

203. THX-1138 - March 4, 2011

#201

Sorry, I don’t mean to rant. But as a nobody fan of Star Trek I find it’s a difficult balance between trying to be a rational, functional human being and a foaming at the mouth fan-boy. I am hugely passionate about Star Trek. Like so many, I grew up with it and (perhaps unhealthily) look to it like an old friend or family mamber. It get’s weird like that.

Anyway, get BND into the film somehow. Name a shuttle the Del Trame and feature it nice and prominent for my friend.

And forge on.

204. boborci - March 4, 2011

203. As a fan, i feel the same way, truly. no need to apologoze for rants. Its our job to rant!

205. boborci - March 4, 2011

203.

and i will keep Del Trame in mind… hopefully find the perfect place

206. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

195. Bob Orci – “the alternate universe concept is only ever going to be an element in Trek 09, therefore it wont be gimmicky for you next time.”

So you basically destroyed Vulcan and made so many changes, the fact all this is an now alternate universe and all the consquences of that, won’t play any part in Trek 12?

Wow. I find that shocking.

207. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

Correction to 206 –

directed at 197 and “the fact this now an alternate universe”

208. boborci - March 4, 2011

206. Hardly. they still live in their reality. but for all you know, an event in deep space has changed the universe we live in, yet you dont go around referencing or wondering about your other life.

whatever the federation and our characters may be doing in response to the destruction of Vulcan or any other event, they are not wondering about what might have been, it is the only reality they have ever known. Discussions of oarallel universes are irrelevant now. Thats all i mean.

209. boborci - March 4, 2011

sorry for typos. at an airport using cell phone.

210. Phil - March 4, 2011

Most of the bitching about Trek 2009 seems to center around the concept of homage, or bearing a better resembelence to the origonal. Just was was so unpalatable about this? The Federation exists. The starships look really similar to TOS. They have Vulcans, Romulans, and Klingons. Everything else is just minor details, except that as a group who professes to not mind a little change, the die hards have blown their collective gasket over those little changes. This thread was about Bermans observations on the direction of the franchise, and it’s not to hard to see that the same people who want Ricks head on a sitck also want JJ’s and his crew on one, too. If you don’t like tattoed Romulans, or the lens flares or whatever, that is your right. Frankly, Berman, Abrams, and the crew deserve better, but they won’t get it from here. Sad.

211. boborci - March 4, 2011

Not true, Phil. the fact that they take time to opine means the care. but thanks for defense!

212. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

211

I also want to take thr time to apologise about the gripes I have. It’s not fair.

You did a good movie.

I just also happen to be a fan of Berman produced Star Trek. Hope you understand.

213. Phil - March 4, 2011

212. captain_neill – March 4, 2011

Hey, I like the Berman produced stuff, too. I just don’t see this as an either/or proposition. I like them both. And the origonal.

214. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

208. Thanks for all your replies, Bob Orci.

I see what you mean.

I was concerned that having gone to such lengths to set up a universe with different rules and circumstances to the old one, the sequel could effectively happen in either. That sort of feels wrong. I suppose it depends on whether Vulcan gets mentioned, or if a given character the crew encounters was specifically affected by what Nero did.

215. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

211

I just love Star Trek so much, that I too get passionate about it, never meant to be criticial in a bad way, getting use to change is the hardest part at times.

216. Seany-Wan - March 4, 2011

You know how James Kirk should have died? Watch the opening of JJ Abrams Star Trek and replace George Kirk with Jim Kirk. That is how he should have gone out!

@Bob Orci. How’s the writing going?

217. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

213

All parts of the same chain is how I like to view it.

218. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

214 (cont) Bob, have you and the Supreme Court, plotted down what Nero likely changed by suddenly turning up in 2228? Some of the big stuff at least. What ways your universe is different. Such as Romulans being seen as having the same appearance earlier than they should? The Klingons having access to Nero’s ship, the Narada for a few decades. Little throwing a stone in a pond, all the ripples rebounding and having little effects, making this universe… well, alternative.

219. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

218. Missed a bit out – Romulans being seen as having the same appearance as Vulcans, earlier than they should?

220. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

218. *Sorry* A date screw up. 2233 was the year.

221. boborci - March 4, 2011

218. totally! sometimes, i go to sleep thinking of that kinda stuff, even if some of it will never make it to movie or show. kinda the fan fiction part of my mind. fun puzzles to consider…

222. boborci - March 4, 2011

216

steady as she goes…

223. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

221

How is the script shaping? Out of curiousity will Ponn Farr be touched upon?

Doesn’t matter either way was just curious.

224. Christopher_Roberts - March 4, 2011

221. Cheers! Stupid question really. I know you helped put together the Countdown graphic novel, giving TNG characters a role to play in Nero’s origin.

Thanks again,

Chris

225. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

221

The opening Kelvin sequence is a great opener that worked brilliantly.

226. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

Hi Bob

In this alternate universe won’t the destruction of Vulcan have a major impact on the Federation since Vulcan is one of the founding members?

227. P Technobabble - March 4, 2011

It may seem, at times, that there is a lot of bitching about Trek09, but it’s a lot of bitching coming from a rather small number of people. The negative critics represent a tiny fraction of the Star Trek community anyway.

In any case, the direction that Star Trek is going is a completely valid one, and completely in line with the kind of stories Star Trek might tell. We saw numerous episodes or films where the crew traveled back in time to set the future right. After seeing that several times, isn’t it more interesting to see something with a different outcome?? Those previous Trek programs that went into the past to fix the present were rather predictable anyway — we already knew there would be a happy ending and our heroes would ride off into the sunset.
I do not think it is necessary for the writers to cater to some mediocre desire for another “back-to-normal” story. I think they’ve given us a Star Trek that requires more thought than some people are willing to think about.
IMO…

228. dmduncan - March 4, 2011

Well, as far as knowing when to quit…as long as this site is up, you keep frequenting it, and there is more Star Trek to comment upon, I’ll give my honest opinion of what I thought worked, didn’t work, and why. I personally think feedback is priceless. As long as it’s sincere and not mean spirited, it’s something we all need, sometimes desperately.

229. Harry Ballz - March 4, 2011

I, personally, think that the script for “Yesterday’s Enterprise” should have been immediately recognized as the gem it was and safely tucked away for the Generations crossover movie! Can you imagine the scene on the bridge with Picard intimating to Kirk that the war is going very badly for the Federation and that defeat is inevitable, with Kirk ordering, “Mr. Spock, tell the crew….we’re going back!” and Kirk saying to Picard, “we’ll give them a fight to remember” and Picard replying, “I know you will, Captain!”

Kirk, Spock and crew sacrifice themselves to prevent a war with 20 billion dead? There wouldn’t have been a dry eye in the house after watching that!

Instead we got Soran/Nexus bull! Disgraceful!

230. Dom - March 4, 2011

131. Basement Blogger

Wow! That’s some serious snark you’ve got on you! Fear for Dom: the Church of Roddenberry is angry! P

‘I ask you, “What is Star Trek?”’

Star Trek (original series) is an exciting, well-written, fun, sexy action adventure series set in deep space with a dash of philosophical insight thrown in with three great archetypes, the warrior (Kirk), doctor (McCoy) and priest (Spock), as developed by Gene Coon after Janice Rand was written out.

‘Wow, you don’t care about Gene Roddenberry’s vision.’

Nope! No such thing! It’s a myth created in the TNG era. I believe in the productions of Roddenberry, Coon, Meredyth Lucas, Freiberger, Justman, Solo, Fontana, Bennett, Meyer and Nimoy. If there was a vision, that was a group effort, even it came from one man’s rough idea for a sci fi show.

‘Then the question should become, “What is Star Trek?”’

You already asked me that!

‘Intelligent science fiction about ideas and philosophy as critic Roger Ebert says it’s about?’

Never said it wasn’t. But it also was loaded with sex and violence . . . which is cool and visceral and part of the excitement of the human condition!

‘Or should Paramount turn it into Star Wars?’

Star Wars is Joseph Campell’s concept of heroic fantasy dressed in vague science fantasy trappings. It’s not really science fiction. Turning Trekinto Wars is also a tediously predictable OTT fan response to any suggestion that Rodders was less than a demi-god!

‘Maybe they should tell the public to ignore “The City on the Edge of Forever”, “The Doomsday Machine” or the “EVIL” Rick Berman’s productions or “The Inner Light” “The Chase”, “Tapestry”or DS9’s “The Visitor.”’

Maybe you should take some sedatives! If you look back on other posts I’ve made these last four years, you’d notice that I’ve singled out episodes such as The Inner Light and The Visitor for praise! I’ve never said that Berman was ‘evil’, merely that he stayed to long and had deeply flawed opinions of what Star Trek was about. If he studied the purported Gene’s Vision so deeply, how come he couldn’t be bothered to watch the original Star Trek!

‘Maybe it’s too much like Star Trek of the original series. Too intellligent for a “modern” audience.’

Modern audiences are very sophisticated, which is why Berman’s weekly plot-reset shows died! TV moved on and Star Trek stayed the same. There’s little to distinguish a 2001 episode of Trek from a 1989 one – the show was hopelessly old fashioned and so set in its ideals of what Trek was about that it became more about what you can’t do than what you can! The Roddenberry Box . . .

‘Maybe Paramount should have turmed Star Trek into Flash Gordon.’

No, Star Wars was based on Flash Gordon. ;)

‘Did you see the end of Star Trek (2009) and who it was dedicated to? It was dedicated to Gene Roddenberry.’

Which was nice and respectful. It would also have been nice to see it dedicated to Bob Justman, Gene Coon et al.

‘I suggest you read this website move often.’

I suggest you learn some manners! Isn’t nice to assume a fake identity and be sarky to people! Go to your local bar, walk up to someone’s face and talk to me like that! Go on, I dare you! I’ll sit by and laugh as you try to bleach out your urine stains afterwards!

‘Gene Roddenberry wanted a series to appeal to a mainstream audience but he also wanted SUBSTANCE. (TrekMovie on a letter by Roddenberry below.)’

Never said otherwise.

‘Even J.J. Abrams looked to at least part of Roddenberry’s vision to keep.. “Abrams says he was also drawn to the project because he believed in-and wanted to-evangelize-Trek’s unabashed idealism.” Entertainment Weekly 10–24 -08 pg. 29.’

Star Trek’s idealism, is not the same thing as Gene’s Vision! The idealism is about humans getting their $#!t together and going exploring. That’s not the same as Gene’s Vision!

‘I fell in love with Star Trek when I saw the original series.’

As did I!

‘It was about ideas, whether they were philosophy or science.’

It was also about action, romance, sex, violence, space battles and monsters, be they men in furry costumes or Dr Adams!

‘Philosophy and science are not stuck in the sixities. They exist with us today.’

Erm . . . well, duh, obviously!

‘ I will always argue for Gene Roddenberry’s vision as the basis for Star Trek.’

As I’ll always have the right to disagree! Read Inside Star Trek by Robert Justman and Herb Solow. You’ll realise how much of Star Trek comes from other people, especially Gene Coon!

‘You can make all the Flash Gordon like shows and slap the name Star Trek to it. It won’t be Star Trek.’

What utter snobbish, elitist balderdash! Sadly, it seems you can make all the ‘dull-as-ditchwater, people talking pompous, third rate pseudo-philosophy behind desks in briefing rooms’ TV shows you like and call them Star Trek though!

‘Gene wanted an accesible show but also wanted it to be of substance.
http://trekmovie.com/2010/11/30/letter-of-note-gene-roddenberry-defends-star-trek-the-cage-pilot/

Never said he didn’t, but the man who got David Gerrold to develop TNG for him in the 1980s was not the man who made the 1960s show, sadly. His world views had changed and he seemed to believe his own publicity! His own knowledge of Trek was lacking, with outrageous claims such as there had never been a violent scene in the original Star Trek! Read some of Ron Moore’s remarks for an insider’s view of life working on TNG under Roddenberry!

Hope that’s all your points answered. Next time try not to be so snarky! Have a good weekend!

Dom

231. THX-1138 - March 4, 2011

I am thankful that Bob Orci takes the time to come here and interact with ALL the fans. Maybe I missed something but it appears to me that all of us who have gripes with the 09 film have been pretty respectful in our interactions with him. If you have a problem with those of us who don’t gush over the new film or it’s creative team at every given opportunity then that’s YOUR problem.

Like I have said at least a hundred times now, I enjoyed the movie. I saw it multiple times in the theater. I bought a bluray player EXPLICITLY for the new movie when it came out on disc. But I have every right to let them all know that it wasn’t the movie I had hoped for. This is a Star Trek site, after all. Not a gushing fan boy hall of praise.

232. John from Cincinnati - March 4, 2011

Berman has quite clearly lost his grip on reality. His continuing denial of his “horrible” death of Kirk only lends to this theory. Even Leonard Nimoy at the latest Vegas Convention asked Shatner why he agreed to do such a lackluster end to such a great character and all Bill did was shrug his shoulders and didn’t say a word. So you see, Mr. Berman, there’s more than just hypercritical fans that think it sucked. Also, dismissing anyone who disagrees with him as hypercritical only shows his sincere lack of respect for the fans.

233. Harry Ballz - March 4, 2011

“Not a gushing fan boy hall of praise”

No, that would be reserved for Lord Ballz, as in……….

ALL HAIL, LORD BALLZ!!

(royal wave)

234. John from Cincinnati - March 4, 2011

P.S. – Generations sucked but it would have been 100 times better with Brando in it. As with STVTFF would have been 100 times better with Sean Connery as Sybok. Too bad Paramount was too cheap and disinterested to make quality Star Trek movies.

“Go make us a hit, but do it on a shoestring budget” – paramount exec

What a bunch of maggot larvae they are.

235. dmb1138 - March 4, 2011

197.
Glad to hear that, Mr. Orci. To reference it again seems pointless, and to base a film around trying to get back some other reality that none of these characters knows anything about would make for a depressing 2nd film, in my opnion, and could invalidate the work done in the first film to establish a new continuity.

PS — please, can we see some slimy rat bastard space pirate Klingons??

236. Harry Ballz - March 4, 2011

Will somebody grab a towel and, looking at that photo atop this thread, please wipe that arrogant/smirk/scowl off Berman’s fat face?

237. Harry Ballz - March 4, 2011

235.

“can we see some slimy rat bastard”

You’re asking for a suit from Paramount to do a cameo??

238. Dom - March 4, 2011

234. John from Cincinnati

Problem is, STII did incredibly on a tiny budget and Paramount figured they could keep the costs down I subsequent films. STII didn’t use many new FX until it’s second half and many of the models were reuses from STTMP. TVH was really cheap, because it was set in the present day.

The problem is, with the launch of the Enterprise-A, the Trek films needed a serious cash injection to do something big and sci-fi for the fifth film. Instead there was budget-cutting and studio interference.

Generations was just horrible. It’s obvious that Berman hadn’t watched the original Star Trek, as he wouldn’t allow Scotty and Chekov to call Kirk ‘Jim’, made them talk like TNG characters (‘phasing in and out of the space-time continuum’ indeed) and really being contemptuous of Kirk.

Ron Moore, at least, made up for it with Battlestar. It’s funny to think I held off watching that show because I wasn’t keen on watching something by a TNG writer!

239. Jonathan - March 4, 2011

boborci,
With respect to working on something for 18 years. I think there is certainly something to be said for being apart of a project and working to develop it and help it grow and thrive over its lifecycle.

That’s not to say we didn’t need fresh blood, as you say, during Berman’s time. Since Star Trek 6 there has been one consistent problem with the films. I didn’t care about the characters. Yes, First Contact was exciting, but it did not grab me emotionally. I think what all the TNG movies needed was a group of individuals to head them who were not involved with the television shows. Maybe that is where Berman needed to step aside.

So here’s my one issue with the Trek ’09 film. I didn’t care about those characters. That’s a problem.

People in the audience seemed to laugh at inappropriate times. Was it because there was so much slapstick humor that when things got serious the audience couldn’t switch gears? I don’t know. But I do remember clearly people laughing when Vulcan was destroyed and Spock’s mother was killed. That’s an issue.

My wife and I have recently watched all of the series on DVD. She had never seen any Trek save for the original series until now. She cried watching the series finales of DS9 and TNG. She cried when Spock passed away and was ressurected in the TOS films. There were many other episodes of TNG, DS9 and VOY that touched her emotionally. The writing drew in and made her care. She fell asleep watching Trek ’09. That’s really too bad.

I honestly don’t want to bash, so I will just say this.

I want to watch a Trek movie that draws me in and makes me care. When something significant happens to the characters, I want to be choked up. When they save the day, I want to be thrilled for them. It needs to be more than just a bunch of cool CG stuff that happened which ended with a fist fight. Take some risks and do something we’ve never seen before.

Wherever the script goes, just make sure we are emotionally invested in the characters we are watching.

240. dmduncan - March 4, 2011

231: “I am thankful that Bob Orci takes the time to come here and interact with ALL the fans. Maybe I missed something but it appears to me that all of us who have gripes with the 09 film have been pretty respectful in our interactions with him.”

Lol! You have missed quite a few somethings.

241. Phil - March 4, 2011

232. John from Cincinnati – March 4, 2011

Shatner cashed his check, so he obviously didn’t feel too bad about it.

242. NuFan - March 4, 2011

197. Thank god it’s never going to be mentioned again! It has nothing to do with whether a movie is good or not. Review the movie, not the universe.

243. captain_neill - March 4, 2011

242

Whenever I watch the film I have a good time watching it, it’s a good fun film.

The alternative universe allows me to enjoy the movie and allow it to co exist with the rest of Star Trek as a separate universe.

But I grew up loving the prime universe Trek, so my preference will always be towards that. I will stickwith new universe of course but I am sure you understand where I am coming from.

244. Sid - March 4, 2011

To be fair to Berman, Kirk’s death was mandated by the studio. Killing Kirk with a bridge, in the bridge film between TOS and TNG, is almost funny in retrospect. If it weren’t so goddamn awful.

I’ll give the guy credit for sticking to his guns on his boring, bland production style. Too bad it ruined Enterpise. Can’t make a TOS-style old-school sci-fi adventure show that looks and sounds exactly like Voyager.

245. dmduncan - March 4, 2011

Remember that old US Navy TV ad slogan? “It’s not just a job, it’s an adventure.”

Well, when your personal slogan becomes “It’s not an adventure, it’s just a job,” then it’s time to do something else.

246. dmduncan - March 4, 2011

The imagination with which Kirk’s career as STAR MAN was ended was simply pathetic. In a cosmos of weird potentialities and awesome vistas, all they could think of was to bury him under a pile of rocks.

You look at how George Kirk dies and you realize exactly how devoid of respect Kirk’s death scene was, and I’ll bet real U.S. fiat currency before it becomes totally worthless that Kirk’s cheap and unimaginative end came out of that smug TNG attitude of the time that Kirk, leading TOS, represented a less evolved “cowboy” mentality that TNG had to be made to repair.

“There is no Star Trek but Roddenberry, and I am his Prophet,” sayeth The Berman.

247. Buzz Cagney - March 4, 2011

I like that YesterdaysEnterprise idea, Harry. The only problem i’d have with it is i’d want the Enterprise D to go back and get blown to bits.
You’ll never make everybody happy!

248. StalwartUK - March 5, 2011

Yawn, another Rick Berman hate thread.

249. Basement Blogger - March 5, 2011

@ 230 . Dom

First, I apologize when I said you should read this website more often. That was to point out a couple stories that I was using to make my point about Gene Roddenberry and his vision for Star Trek. If you took offense, I apologize.

Second, you make some good points. Some that I agree with.

Third, you’ve accused me of being “snarky” That’s a little like calling the kettle black. You did attack Rick Berman, those that like what he did, and then proceeded to attack me. I’ll just let your comments speak for themselves.

Dom says, “Berman and his mob stole Star Trek from the people and kept it for a diminishing, quasi-religious fanbase.” @42

Dom says, “I suggest you learn some manners! Isn’t nice to assume a fake identity and be sarky to people! Go to your local bar, walk up to someone’s face and talk to me like that! Go on, I dare you! I’ll sit by and laugh as you try to bleach out your urine stains afterwards.” @230

Dom says, “Maybe you should take some sedatives!” @230

I don’t think those are nice things to say. Anyway, since your are so concerned about my idenity let me explain. My moniker is taken from a comment Sarah Palin made about bloggers being in the basement. And yes, I know being accused of being in the basement is an insult. It’s my acknowledgment of being a geek, or nerd. I’m making fun of myself.

By the way, my real name is Bernie Wong, which is pretty dull. P.S. I was at a bar last night and my underwear was clean when I left. :-)

250. Harry Ballz - March 5, 2011

247.

Thanks, Buzz! That movie would have been epic!

251. Basement Blogger - March 5, 2011

@ 198 Ensign Joe “Parallel Universes”

I posted this interview with Brian Greene last month. Stephen Colbert interviews Brian Greene about parallel universes. It’s interesting, and of course funny. Colbert even makes a “Mirror, Mirror” reference.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/372476/january-27-2011/brian-greene

252. captain_neill - March 5, 2011

I guess in the new universe if Spock goes through Ponn Farr he will just deal with it personally with Uhura rather than the fight to the death with Kirk.

Still not happy with Spock and Uhura being together in the new movie, but it doesn’t ruin it for me.

I do hate the Rick Berman attacks on this site, so these threads I do get more passionate. So forgive me for that.

253. Basement Blogger - March 5, 2011

@ 252 captain-neill

I agree with you on the Berman attacks. Like I said before, he wasn’t a perfect man. But he tried to keep Gene Roddenberry’s vision in Star Trek. He helped to create Voyager, DS9 and Enterprise. With the exception of Enterprise, the shows he produced each ran for seven years.

And yes, Gene Roddenberry was not perfect. Neither is J.J. Abrams. Everybody makes mistakes, like that “Patch Adams” song for Enterprise. But Rick Berman is not Satan.

254. Christopher_Roberts - March 5, 2011

221. – Bob Orci – “Totally! sometimes, i go to sleep thinking of that kinda stuff, even if some of it will never make it to movie or show. kinda the fan fiction part of my mind. fun puzzles to consider…”

I just thought I’d run this idea by you, on the off-chance it fits with what you guys are putting into the sequel.

If by any chance you’re going to be taking inspiration from “Balance of Terror” and this is a long shot… you involve old school Romulans…

Think about doing a little throwaway scene where Kirk and Spock look at footage of the Earth-Romulan War with a few NX class starships in there. The viewer then cuts to Archer about to give his Birth of the Federation speech and Kirk casually switches the monitor off just as he opens his mouth, as a running gag.

Face it… we’re never ever going to hear what Archer said right at the end of “These are the Voyages…” anyway!

255. Phil - March 5, 2011

Dear god, no throw aways, no asides, homages, send-offs, nothing like that. Keep looking forward!!! New stories, new adventures. No tired retreads, please.

256. Vultan - March 5, 2011

I’m afraid a retread, or at very least a partial retread, will probably happen in the next film… since rebooting a film franchise these days is something of a retread of an idea anyway.

Sorry, but going BACK to the original characters wasn’t exactly “boldly going” forward. I’m cautiously optimistic for something new in the way of storytelling, but frankly I’m expecting more carbon paper.

257. Buzz Cagney - March 5, 2011

If I may be so bold, Vults, screw going forward. There are still so many stories that could be told with the original, and if I may be so bold again, the best Trek characters. We had near 200 hours of TNG- that story is told. Despite what Berman may secretly wish there are no loose ends to tie up about that show or its sisters. And certainly not enough people that care enough to make it worth doing.
And all talk of a TNG reboot that i sometimes read on here is just a load of old pony, as we say over here. (Pony and Trap= crap).
No, for now Kirk and crew are the only thing in the Trek well that are worth dropping the bucket in for.
Maybe we’ll get a new show spun off when we’ve had a few films. New ship, new characters, but for now just spend a while and smell the flowers. ;-)

258. Vultan - March 5, 2011

#257

Actually Buzz, I’m not really interested in seeing more of the TNG characters. While I did (and still do) enjoy the show, that story is very much over. By going forward, I meant in a storytelling sense, not timelines. They could set a new Trek movie or TV show in any century or universe—I don’t care either way. What I would like to see is the new ship and characters you mentioned.

If these filmmakers would really liked to have shaken things up, just as TOS did back in the 60’s, they would’ve given us a new gasoline-warp powered hybrid ship (built by Government Motors), with a Muslim captain, an openly gay first officer, and a conservative-minded female communications officer from Wasilla, Alaska. Controversial, you say? You bet’cha! :D

259. Bugs Nixon - March 5, 2011

Vultan – dont you see it like hanging out with old friends?

260. Buzz Cagney - March 5, 2011

I wasn’t really aiming the TNG comment at you, Vults. I was just in the zone so let it rip lol (it had been building for a while!)

Do you not have confidence in the current production team to come up with something new even if it is with the familiar characters?
I think I do. The first movie somewhat tied their hands due to the necessity of introducing the crew, but the next movie leaves them with a pretty free hand. I’m certain they will be able to surprise and delight. I reckon they want that as much as we do.

As for openly gay, do you mean he dresses flamboyantly, minces around and flirts with anything muscular in a red shirt ? I’m not sure I’m ready for that! Still, to each their own buddy! lol
Nah, I don’t have a great deal of interest in a new crew at this point. Come back and speak to me about it 2015! ;-)

261. Buzz Cagney - March 5, 2011

#259 thats it exactly, Bugs.
Love the name btw, Bugs Nixon!. Very good. Where did that come from?

262. Vultan - March 5, 2011

My confidence in the current production crew is tenuous at best. As I said before, I’m cautiously optimistic in the next movie, hoping for something totally new in the way of storytelling and leaving all those cutesy TOS references to something like Futurama.

As for visiting “old friends,” I have all the movies and the second season of TOS on DVD. I prefer to visit them that way, but to each his own.

Oh, and my reference to the openly gay character was a tongue-in-cheek reference to a recent article on this site about that issue. That’s all. No flamboyant musical numbers needed, thank you very much. ;)

263. Buzz Cagney - March 5, 2011

Only the second season on DVD? 8-/ ? My god man, are you sure you are a Trek fan at all? (thats a joke btw!)

So what ToS references do you consider cutesy? I don’t feel the first movie went needlessly down that road so i see no reason they would in the next. That being said some of us older fans do want some nods and winks. It helps us remember what we are watching you see!

264. Vultan - March 5, 2011

I can’t remember the exact quotes and moments, as it’s been some time since I watched it, but the cutesy stuff go along these lines:

“I’m givin’ her all she’s got.”
“Pointy-earred hobgoblin.”
“Are you out of your Vulcan mind?!”
Checkov’s problem with W’s.
Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes… again.
Spock’s intelligence being tested on a computer… again.
and so on…

And then there were the story elements that felt reused—Kirk being a badboy renegade, mad Romulan out to destory Earth with a superweapon. Like Nemesis, it all seemed like a collection of Trek’s greatest hits—“Now That’s What I Call Star Trek: Volume Two.” The only difference in the two movies in my view is that Trek ’09 had a much more dynamic director and a sexier, younger cast—hence it’s success and tired, old Nemesis’ failure at the box office.

Like a lot of summer tentpole movies, Trek ’09 was more of a marketing win than anything else.

265. Vultan - March 5, 2011

Correction: Chekov’s problem with V’s. They just sound like W’s.

“Wictor, wictor, wictor…”

266. Buzz Cagney - March 5, 2011

man I love the wictor wictor moments! All of ‘em!
I think what we have here is simply a case of me being on a bit of a nostalgia trip -and there is NO WAY i’m going to apologise for that- against your burning desire to see a whole new Trek. And you need not apologise for that either.
The thing is its my wish thats being granted right now. You are just gona have to wait your turn friend. ;-)

267. Vultan - March 5, 2011

Oh yes… Buzz… like Khan on Ceti Alpha V… I will… wait…
(My best Shatner delivery.)

;)

Ex… cell… ent.

268. Kev - March 5, 2011

Dismisses critiques that he “killed” Kirk and Data, and says that it is only some hardcore fans that most fans are not “hypercritical”

Correction Berman you killed:
The Borg
The Q
The Enterprise D
Pre Tos
Post TNG
Transwarp and faster than warp propulsion with Threshold

Made the prime directive a god damn joke and by default made our heros pro genocide ala “Dear Doctor” and “Time and Again”

Concerning Ron Jones:
“the scene is not there to enhance the music”
Right…. you actually mean that the music was actually better than your writing and you took offense to that, he actually cared about the music and you just wanted wall paper dressing.

You know berman he was key to TNG’s early success and after you fired him the series felt like it lost a part of his greatness and he was key to making The best of both worlds and the drumhead feel so epic and pivotal in the show

by removing him you killed off one of the key three things that made trek great and left us with only the visuals and the writing and the writing just sort of died out and wasnt there for voyager, enterprise (until manny coto took over) and most of the TNG films

and you brought Kirk into the TNG era just to have him killed off for no good god damn reason

So to sum up you sir are a hack, and you and Berman Braga ruined practically everything good about modern and old trek after you took over, and YOU alone are the one who killed trek and made it so the only way it could be resurrected was through a parralel universe reboot taking place in the tos era

Sorry that hardcore thing just pissed me off it wasnt hardcore, it was in GENERAL that all fans felt that!

and I feel that if it wasnt for DS9 and first contact being relatively good and decent repectively trek would have died along time ago, like Voyager S4

269. Harry Ballz - March 5, 2011

262. Vultan “No flamboyant musical numbers needed, thank you very much”

Well, at least that would give them all an excuse to sing.

270. Vultan - March 5, 2011

#269

On second thought, I like that idea. Someone get Scott Bakula on the phone!

:D

271. Damian - March 5, 2011

249–

That is one of the points I was trying to make on another Berman hate thread. We all have different tastes. Someone doesn’t like Berman produced Star Trek, that’s fine. I don’t even mind debating the pros and con’s and so forth. Its the ugliness that starts to come out. The implication that I must be some kind of moron if I liked Enterprise or DS9. Whatever you may feel about Berman, he is a human being and I’m sure he hoped whenever he put something out there, people were going to like it.

Berman stayed on too long. I don’t deny that. I don’t say he necessarily had to divorce himself completely from it. But he should have gradually handed the reins over to someone else and take a more backseat role. But Berman seemed to come to terms with that. After all, even he said in the article Star Trek needs someone new to do a TV series. He wouldn’t do it now because even he feels it needs a fresh perspective.

I also agree with someone else that noted they liked Berman Trek and the new movie. For me there is not us vs them. This is just the next step in Star Trek. Hopefully 20 years from now we will be talking about yet another step. Even Bob Orci has said he liked all Star Trek.

272. keachick - March 5, 2011

#264 – “I’m givin’ her all she’s got.”
“Pointy-earred hobgoblin.”
“Are you out of your Vulcan mind?!”
Checkov’s problem with W’s.
Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes… again.
Spock’s intelligence being tested on a computer… again.
and so on…

I think you are confusing original storytelling with character development/exposition. These quotes are all the things that went to make who the original TOS characters were/are, including Kirk being a “badboy renegade”, translation – independent thinker.

McCoy was suspicious of logic and emotional suppression that Vulcans so valued and calling Spock a “green-blooded” or “pointy-eared hobgoblin” (he had a few variations) were ways in which McCoy expressed his distrust. This is/was part of who McCoy was.

TOS’s Chekov’s problem with ”v’s is/was a recognisable part of who (or in this case, how) Chekov spoke. (Too bad that in the 60s, nobody on the set knew any Russian and was able to point out what a real Russian speaker, Anton Yelchin, pointed out to the writers/producers for Star Trek ’09). By the next movie, this Chekov will have his ‘v’s and ‘w’s all sorted.

Personally, I am more than pleased that they brought back the original TOS, albeit in an alternate timeline and with a new cast. Getting the old cast back simply was not possible anyway. I never realised how much I missed the young TOS Enterprise crew. The casting was excellent and I am sure that some of the criticisms levelled against the way some of the characters, particular Scotty, were portrayed will be sorted by the next movie. They are all very good actors, so they will do what is needed.

273. keachick - March 5, 2011

About singing and music – I have never heard Scott Bakula sing and would like to. As Admiral Archer, he will have an appointment to pick up his prized pregnant beagle bitch (a descendant of Porthos, of course) which Scotty miraculously and fortuitously rescues from the transporter mishap. Now if this is not a time for a celebration – song, dance, music – what is?

Now we know that this young Captain Pine/Kirk can hold a tune and so can Scott Bakula. Who else among the “magnificent seven” has one or two “pipes”? Not everyone has to be an opera singer.

Yet another question that a nosey kea beak seeks answers to. Bear in mind that I’m not one for frivolity…

274. Vultan - March 5, 2011

@272

No confusion here.

Of course it’s exposition. It’s just exposition we’ve all seen before—going back to my original point:

To boldly go where everything looks very familiar.

275. keachick - March 5, 2011

Yes, it was an exposition that may be familiar to trekkies, but not to the many who saw Star Trek for the first time, or had not seen much of Star Trek before.

Sometimes I think that the writers can’t win ever around here with some people. If they showed the characters boldly go where we’ve not seen/heard them go before, then people would complain that these are not the real characters; that so-n-so would never say or do such-n-such a thing. Oh wait, that has already happened. Think Spock/Uhura intimate friendship/? or Sarek expressing how he FELT about Spock’s mother, Amanda…

(Actually it was evident from TOS that Vulcans had feelings, but they learned from an early age to suppress/repress them. Sometimes that did not work, hence the exhausting Kolinahr Ritual).

276. Buzz Cagney - March 5, 2011

#273 I’m not sure if your tongue is in your cheek, but here goes – you say you are not one for frivolity yet you would be quite happy to see the Captain singing and dancing?
If that were to happen there would be forrowed brows and confused faces aplenty out in TV land, i’m quite sure.
Dare I say there may even be the odd ‘oh thats just needless frivolity’ comment. Even the thought of it leaves me scratching my head lol

277. Buzz Cagney - March 6, 2011

#267 Vults, I do hope, while you arew waiting that you don’t get tipped over the edge by obsession and rage. You wait silently plotting your revenge until *snap* you break and can take no more familiarity.
I don’t really know how far Oklahoma is from Hollywood (but I bet you wouldn’t want to walk it!?) but head there you surely will.

Once there I can see you kidnapping Bob and Alex and putting things in there ears (ipod earphones most likely) to keep them subdued and maleable while you set about completely rewriting Trek ’12.

Kirk will be pensioned off- well, after the meteroic rise to Captain who will question him retiring at age 30? The Enterprise will be decommisioned off faster than a British Naval Vessel and Spock and Uhura will marry and move to Miami. She will become a pole dancer/call centre operator and he will basically live off her earnings and look depressed all the time.
She finds that such a turn-on after all ;-)

Chekov will go back to school and enrol in a English as a Second Language course.
Sulu will go back to being a stoner.
Scotty will open a pub- he’ll steal most of his stock from Engineering before leaving.
McCoy will become a Special Advisor on Health Care to Obama. ‘damn it man, i’m a health care provider not a politician’.
Keenser will go back to his first love- Star Wars.

And that will all happen in the first five minutes.
Cue new music. Cue new ship. Cue new crew.
The first line? ‘heading Captain?’
‘whatever takes your fancy, No1′
‘ooh, you are cheeky Captain. But your hair looks super today sweetie’. Gosh, this ship is so big and masculine. And big and butch. I’m going to like it very much I think’.

Oh god I’m just rambling now! But I think you see where i’m going? Yes, thats correct- slightly insane! lol

278. keachick - March 6, 2011

#276 Yes, my comment was just a little tongue-in-cheek. Anyway, I was not talking about TV. I was talking about what might be possible for the next movie. I don’t think at all about any TV series. Not my focus at the moment. I just want to see the sequel being made and yes, if there is a little frivolity in it, that’s OK too. Life embraces everything, but we only choose to notice a small part of it.

279. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

johnboc

I don’t think it’s fair to discourage the new fans from watching the other Treks because you don’t like them.

If that was the case all the new fans would be watching would be the Abrams Trek movies and they would not get what Trek is all about.

Why not embrace the new movie as part of the legacy.

If the new fans nly watch the new movies then they are denying themselves great Trek just to watch one movie.

280. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

Bob Orci

Please don’t take it personally about the new film. I do apologise for earlier comments.

I do like a lot of stuff you did in the new movie.

I am just passionate about the rest of Trek is all.

281. Buzz Cagney - March 6, 2011

Neill, we all know now where you stand on it.
Seriously, dude, change the record, please. Thanks.

282. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

281

I just want to apologise for any comments of mine that were near the knuckle.

Cause unlike the Berman haters I don’t want to give death threats out to the current team just because things are different,

I cringe at the Berman bashing on this site.

283. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

When I read the comments on this site regarding Berman I just feel that the ideals of Star Trek are not repected or taken in by some fans.

284. Star trackie - March 6, 2011

#264. “I can’t remember the exact quotes and moments, as it’s been some time since I watched it, but the cutesy stuff go along these lines:

“I’m givin’ her all she’s got.”
“Pointy-earred hobgoblin.”
“Are you out of your Vulcan mind?!”
Checkov’s problem with W’s.
Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes… again.
Spock’s intelligence being tested on a computer… again.
and so on…”

These are only bothersome to you because you are familiar enough with prior Trek to recognize them. To brand new fans, or the casual movie goer, the audience they are after ( after all, the current fanbase buried Trek with non-interest in Nemesis and Enterprise) they mean nothing. To less hard core fans they are simple quick winks to the knowing. Nothing wrong with that.

285. chrisfawkes.com - March 6, 2011

Personally i think i would like to see the new high court bring Berman to justice for sins against Star Trek including the lamo death of Captain James T Kirk.

And i would like to be the first to put my hand up for jury duty.

286. chrisfawkes.com - March 6, 2011

^ tongue is in cheek.

287. pilotfred - March 6, 2011

i just love it this lets hate berman or should i say lets hate the guy who use to be in charge as if you recall we loved berman at one point but hated harve bennet and before that we loved harve but hated gene

oh please this guy made loads of miskate granted however he is honest about them and not just now so said so at the time

as for not listening to the fans you can say thats short sighted however how many fans do you know who just want the same thing over and over again and not try new things untill something new comes along then they want that over and over again and if you re-call gene wanted him as part of the team as he did know anything about star trek

i am so looking forward to his book whenever it comes out as i feel this will give a good insight into all the problems of making star trek when he was in charge and all the shit paramount must have given him

288. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

I guess I don’t like the new team being called The Supreme Court.

289. Dom - March 6, 2011

279. captain_neill

I have to say, I’d advise any fans who have got into Trek from the new film to watch the original Star Trek, the cartoons and six films first, then to tackle Berman on the proviso that they’re aware that it is essentially a different universe with a wholly different philosophy from the original Star Trek.

I consider TNG and co to be a slightly weirdo, hippie dippie, California religious sect’s sidestep reality from Star Trek. As a valid continuation, though, they fail from the out set.

290. Christopher_Roberts - March 6, 2011

288. Although I don’t like the title… maybe High Council is better, as in Vulcan or Klingon… it’s the right approach. There’s strength in numbers. Easier to deal with criticism and not take it personally, when it’s directed to a body of decision makers, rather than lavishing too-much praise or indeed too-much hate on just one individual.

291. Red Dead Ryan - March 6, 2011

Captain Neill,

People are always going to be split about Rick Berman. There’s no use in getting wound up over it. And I think we’d all appreciate it if you stopped posting the same complaints over and over in multiple posts.

292. Vultan - March 6, 2011

#284

You’ve proven my point. Indeed it was the non-Trekkies they were after. As I said before, Trek ’09 was more of a marketing win than anything else. Hopefully, we’ll get to see something original in the next one.

293. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

291

I am sorry, the Rick Berman bashing is the aspect that does get me more wound up.

I am sorry for going on, I only rant because I love Trek.

294. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

I don’t want to be making enemies

295. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

It appears that TOS is being released again onto blu ray on 2 May in the UK.
All three seasons in one pack.

Obviously nothing new from last editions but cool packaginghttp://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004E10QCI?tag=8ofsguitothet-21&camp=2902&creative=19466&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=B004E10QCI&adid=0FQF0YVYQ9S6HTNW30W1&

296. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004E10QCI?tag=8ofsguitothet-21&camp=2902&creative=19466&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=B004E10QCI&adid=0FQF0YVYQ9S6HTNW30W1&

might be cool for those who still have to get the blu rays and it is also coming out on DVD

297. Red Dead Ryan - March 6, 2011

Anthony reported that a few days ago.

298. boborci - March 6, 2011

292. no, it was trekiies and non alike that we were after.

299. Buzz Cagney - March 6, 2011

#293 we are all here because we love Trek. Seriously, mister, calm down.
Find some perspective.
Thats the last time I will comment on your obsessional posts.
Lets hear no more of it ffs!

300. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

298

How difficult was to get the balance between what the mainstream like and what the fans like?

I know you succeeded in it getting the balance right, but if it were me I would have found it harder to go the mainstream way. But you succesfully balanced the two out to make a fun movie.

301. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

299

I am sorry, I really am

302. Buzz Cagney - March 6, 2011

Neill, i’m not looking for an apology buddy, I, we, just need you to bust free from this cycle of repetitive commenting/posting that you fall into. Say your piece, of course. Say it with conviction and passion. Brilliant. Just don’t keep saying it matey!
Once will do very nicely. ;-)

303. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

298

I was asking out of curiousity becuase I feel I would find it difficult to balance out what the mainstream would like from what the fans would like.

It’s the balance I have noticed in Doctor Who, there is a balance between what a main audience would like which differs more from the fans but it successfully balances it. But as a hard core fan I would be temepted to go towards the geek side, which I know is suicide when you need bigger numbers.

304. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

302

Will do

I just sometimes allow this site get me into rant modes. To tel the truth I hate it when I rant as well.

305. Buzz Cagney - March 6, 2011

Mate, this is the internet. Nothing matters on here. Its not real-life.
Why get stressed about any of it? If you feel a multiple-rant coming on count 1 www 2 www 3 www etc up to, oh, say 1000,000, or until the urge has passed.
If that doesn’t work a nice bottle of white wine often makes things all better. ;-)

306. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

prob would you know.

307. Vultan - March 6, 2011

#298

Oh, that’s good to know, Bobby.
When will the movie be running for congress?

;)

308. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

As a Trek fan, the new movie did make me proud to be a Star Trek fan.

Then again I love Trek so much that I feel proud to admit that I love Voyager.

309. boborci - March 6, 2011

307. It actually ran for President and won:

http://www.slate.com/id/2218596/
;)

310. captain_neill - March 6, 2011

309

Would you be able to forgive my comments in the past.

I admit you did a good thing for Trek and wanted to apologise for my rants.

311. Vultan - March 6, 2011

#309

Wow, I’d heard some nutty people going on about him being born outside of the US. I had no idea it was on Vulcan!

:D

312. Rocket Scientist - March 6, 2011

308. Me too! I found the Season 1 DVD set of VOY at a decent price so I picked it up. Am amazed how much I’m enjoying it! After voicing a bit of disdain for it I may have to change my tune. After all, I did it for ENT when I watched it the 2nd time around.

I have no ill feelings about Berman Trek. Considering the sheer volume of episodes produced, their track record was very good.

313. dmduncan - March 6, 2011

Ack! Please don’t spoil my love for the movie by comparing it favorably to the latest in a long line of decepticon presidents.

314. James - March 6, 2011

Bob you probably cant say much but is the studio planning on giving you the same/increased budget for the sequel? How much of an effect is it going to have on how far you can expand the new universe?

315. boborci - March 6, 2011

probably about the same-ish.

won’t know the effect until we actually see what we turn in costs!

316. Harry Ballz - March 6, 2011

314+315.

Yeah, if you’re going to travel the galaxy, somebody has got to pay for the gas!

317. Pyxlboy - March 6, 2011

Rick Berman is still talking? Man, the book better have those awesome pictures I mentioned earlier on one of the other “Rick Berman talks Trek” posts. I’m waiting for the “Rick Berman finally admits to being special and key member of the Vatican Assassin Warlock tribunal”.
I think we can all agree that the Rick Berman bashing should stop- and as soon as he stops speaking about trek- it will.

318. Basement Blogger - March 6, 2011

@ 264 Vultan
@ 284 Star trackie

Chef and world traveler Anthony Bourdain said on Top Chef, there’s a finel line between homage and parody. When I heard Scotty utter in the 2009 film, “I’m giving her all she’s got.” I laughed and winced at the same time. That line has been the butt of jokes for a long time. Example, see the comedy “BASEketball.” (1998) In this scene, Cooper (Trey Parker) and Reemer (Matt Stone) accidently turn off a poor kid’s life support.

Cooper: Damn it man I’m trying to save an innocent life!
Reemer: I’m giving you all I’ve got captain!
Cooper: (Scottish accent) I love ya always have. Heh

I saw Star Trek (2009) three times at the theater. First on the sneak preview night. I thought to myself, it’s well made, and entertaining. I liked it and admired the film. But why didn’t I love it? Saw it again with Trekkers. Everybody seemed to be pleased. I told my the high school kids I coached in mock trial that the new movie was something that they should enjoy. And actually one kid did ask me about the best original series episodes. He never got back to me with his reviews, though.

Maybe it was the comments from J.J. Abrams, “We weren’t making a movie for fans for Star Trek. We were making a movie for fans of movies” (Entertainment Weekly, 10-24-08, ;g. 31) or the ads that said, “This is not you father’s Star Trek” that drove me nuts. I guess comic critic Harry Plinket made the point by saying that Paramount was worried that geeks would be the only ones who go to the movie. Yet, if you watch the making of documentaries, it’s clear that from staff to the extras, there were more fans of Star Trek that Paramount could not account for. And there’s no doubt the filmmakers loved Star Trek. So, it’s this dichotomy that concerns me. It is great to hear that everybody wants to go deeper with the new film.

Back to Rick Berman, I’m not going to blame him for the demise of Star Trek. He produced three successful shows TNG, Voyager, and DS9 that included hundreds of hours of quality science fiction. Was there franchise fatigue? Perhaps. Again, it didn’t help that UPN was not readily available in all markets. (Link.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPN#Availability

319. boborci - March 7, 2011

318.

it is not homage since it is actually Star Trek.

320. Basement Blogger - March 7, 2011

@ 319 Bob Orci

I’ll probably repeat this but thanks Bob for hanging out with us crazy Trekkers. We may disagree but it’s great that you talk to the fans. And I am looking forward to the next Star Trek film. By the way, what’s up with all the Hollywood entertainment concerning alien invasion? Battle: Los Angeles. Your new film, “Cowboys and Aliens.” The mini-series, “Falling Skies.” Is this a Hollywood-government plan to prepare us for our alien overlords? Maybe Kodos and Kang from “The Simpsons” aren’t fictional characters? :-)

321. boborci - March 7, 2011

320.

interesting question. barring sime kinda tech that the givernment might use on me to incline me to serve as their puppet in preparing folks for disclosure (which i cant rule out), i can honestly say i have not been directly influenced by the government, However, its should be obvious to anyone who studies the matter that UFOs represent a real phenonmenon, and our government has classified anything having to do whith the subject above top secret. doesnt mean there are aliens, of course.

322. captain_neill - March 7, 2011

319

I guess it’s a combination of both since you puts the winks in with the classic quotes and tie it with the rest of Trek by putting Spock from the Prime Universe into the movie.

I guess you could say the AU concept of the new movie allows for “The Best of Both Worlds”

Are you interested in creating a new alien race in the next movie?

323. captain_neill - March 7, 2011

319

You tempted to do something with the Tholians or an alien race that was only mentioned previously.

324. Basement Blogger - March 7, 2011

@ 321 Bob Orci

Funny. Oh, I forgot. J.J. Abrams got some movie called “Super 8″ coming out. As you know it’s about the transfer of freight from Area 51 to Wright Patterson Air Force base in Dayton. That’s not alien life trying to get out of the railroad car.

And you’re right, all that UFO stuff classified above top secret has nothing to do with aliens. Now, I hope the men in black stop bothering me. :-)

But seriously…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_UFO_wave

325. Zod - March 7, 2011

Sweet news, the ufologist and conspiracy theorist doesn’t stay for 18 years. So there is hope for the franchise to return to sanity, quality and intelligence after all.

326. dmduncan - March 7, 2011

Christie Brinkley was on Jay Leno the other night telling a very interesting story about UFOs she saw in Italy. The link between UFOs and water is very interesting. They’ve been seen going into and coming out of relatively small bodies of water, such as reservoirs. I just hope they’re not flushing their toilets into them.

327. boborci - March 7, 2011

325. yes.. it can return to what it was before we came along. happy for you.

328. captain_neill - March 7, 2011

327

What would be the best way to get into the industry?

I am doing some writing and trying to conceive a horror movie idea.

329. Damian - March 7, 2011

327–As a fan of all Star Trek, I enjoyed what came before. However I feel no pressing need to go back. It was fun, I liked it and still watch all the various shows or movies, but it was time to move on (even Berman acknowledges himself that Star Trek needs a fresh team). Eventually we will be onto a new creative team who will take Star Trek in yet a new directions. All I usually ask of any team is to simply respect what came before. That does not require anyone to be tied down or limited, just to be aware of it and not to contradict that. Star Trek (2009) did a good job of giving Star Trek a fresh start without ignoring or disrespecting what came before. The framework for this new reality still has a basis in what came before. The genius in this story was that it followed what came before (sequel), it gave us some insight into how these characters started out (prequel) and it also gave the franchise a fresh start (reboot). I liked that I can watch this film in the context of all that came before and it is still very much a part of the Star Trek universe overall.

330. P Technobabble - March 7, 2011

329. Damian

Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve loved TOS since it premiered on Sept. 8, 1966, as well as all the movies and series that followed (in spite of a few admitted disappointments) — if that helps establish me as a “hardcore Trekkie.” Trek 09 belongs as much to the legacy of Star Trek as TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT all of which were continuations, alterations or re-imaginings of what Star Trek was in the beginning.

327. boborci

I don’t know if this makes sense, but as a fan who truly enjoyed your team’s movie, I feel as if it has become part of me, and in a strange way I think of it as “mine.” When I read some of the insulting, mean-spirited comments that sometimes get tossed at it (and you), it makes my blood boil, as if I were somehow connected to the film. So, I give you a lot of credit for being so reserved toward some of these nit-wits (like 325), who probably never had an original thought in their entire lives. You know, of course, there are far more of us who support you and love your work, as opposed to the opposition. (Just wanted to give you a pat on the back).

331. Zod - March 7, 2011

Well, if the notion that the government is after you is an original thought to you than I hope that you will your enjoy Alex Jones, Glenn Beck and Bob Orci.
I nonetheless won’t degrade to your level of discourse and call you a moron although it would be a fairly objective assessement of your mental state.

332. Harry Ballz - March 7, 2011

No one here gives a SOD about ZOD!

333. Vultan - March 7, 2011

#319

Those lines weren’t so much a homage, more like self-parody. At least dangerously being close to it. The Simpsons did this years ago.

Scotty: “I cannot reach the control, Cap’n!”

334. dmduncan - March 7, 2011

332. Harry Ballz – March 7, 2011

Vacuous general claims are hard to respond to; substantive particular ones are the sort that also bring specific rebuttals (as we all know, “the government” is not yet a monolithic entity, and so it is not out to “get” anyone). Since Zod was careful to avoid the latter, he is probably less interested in the balance of evidence for any given case, and more interested in just being rude because that’s the only route left for his displeasure with ST.09 to take.

What ufologists and conspiracy theorists have to do with Star Trek, I don’t know. But Zod seems to think there is an important connection between those things and why Star Trek is presumably no longer (where it once was) sane, of quality, and intelligent.

Well, calling somebody a nit wit is at least more honest than pretending to be above the fray. You are not above the fray when you take a movie so seriously that your displeasure with it causes you to give up the chance to interact positively and constructively with one of the writers for the satisfaction of expressing vengeful insults to him instead.

335. Phil - March 7, 2011

Okay Zod, I get it, you don’t like the conspircy/UFO theorists. No reason to be rude about it….

336. P Technobabble - March 7, 2011

331.

“…I nonetheless won’t degrade to your level of discourse and call you a moron although it would be a fairly objective assessement of your mental state…”

Sorry, mate, you degraded yourself when you posted:
“…Sweet news, the ufologist and conspiracy theorist doesn’t stay for 18 years. So there is hope for the franchise to return to sanity, quality and intelligence after all…”

337. Harry Ballz - March 7, 2011

334.

dmduncan, I once would go on at length, like you, to point out the faults to this type of dweeb.

Now, being older, I can’t be bothered wasting my time.

The guy is an assh*le! Straight and simple! NEXT!

338. Zod - March 8, 2011

And to prevent the usual reflexes of the conspiracy folks, no, I am not naive and I don’t believe that Kennedy was murdered by a lone assassin. Political murder is motivated politically and there are quite some indications that the successor killed his predecessor.

What I don’t like is either plain nuttery like “the moonlanding was faked” or the irrational conspiracy atmosphere kind of thing. We need enlightment, not mystification (and I hope this mystery stuff stays out of Trek which is also about enlightment). The real “conspiracies” are not that hard to decipher.
But instead of cutting off the balls of the millionaires that bought your governors you folks on the other side of the big pond seem to prefer to fantasize about UFOs or government agents following you.

339. Harry Ballz - March 8, 2011

338.

Well, what do you know……..’course, even a broken clock is right twice a day!

340. Basement Blogger - March 8, 2011

It must be that photo of Rick Berman that brings out the nastiness. Maybe TrekMove should put a puppy next to his mug. Wow, I joke around with Bob Orci about Hollywood’s flood of alien invasion movies and Zod turns it into an insult, and paints all of us as kind of paranoid conspiracy theorists complete with following Glenn Beck. (@325, 331) And it goes both ways, the anit-Berman people can also be mean. One Trekker was commenting on the color of my underwear while leaving a bar. (@ 230) By the way, it’s sitll white. Seriously, we should follow the Vulcans more often and not let our emotions control us.

As for the UFO stuff, I take blame for it. (@ 320) I was joking with Bob about the proliferation of alien invasion movies. Yes, it’s an old UFO theory that Hollywood with the government will prepare us for the concept of extraterrestrial life. So, I extrapolated it and joked about preparing the public for alien invasion. See, when I made the comment about Kodos and Kang from “The Simpsons” as possibly being real, um that was a joke. And yes, I later refered to the Belgium UFO sightings. Okay, I think a small percentage of sightings should be taken seriously. So does physicist Michio Kaku . In the Belgium sightings, there were F-16s dispatched and had radar contact. And no, I don’t follow Glenn Beck. But I digress.

Look, Bob Orci takes his time to hang out with us. He listens to our comments, positive and negative. Trust me, while I like Star Trek (2009) I’ve criticized it. We get to joke with him. We’re very fortunate to be able to communicate with him. But we should treat him with respect for the accomplishments he has achieved and his willingess to talk to Trekkers. We should be very grateful for his participation.

341. P Technobabble - March 8, 2011

340. Basement

“…Look, Bob Orci takes his time to hang out with us. He listens to our comments, positive and negative. Trust me, while I like Star Trek (2009) I’ve criticized it. We get to joke with him. We’re very fortunate to be able to communicate with him. But we should treat him with respect for the accomplishments he has achieved and his willingness to talk to Trekkers. We should be very grateful for his participation…”

Very grateful, indeed.

342. Damian - March 8, 2011

330–I understand what you mean about the attacks. I guess that’s why sometimes I get a little nuts when people attack Rick Berman. I liked Star Trek under his watch. I recognize not everyone liked his Star Trek, and am ok with that. What gets me riled up is when people attack him and I start taking it personally. I can’t help it. I feel like my own likes/dislikes are critiqued.

I also think it’s great that some involved with Star Trek present and past, such as Bob Orci or Rick Sternbach, come on here and post with the fans. There’s nothing wrong with debating them or offering what I would call some constructive criticism. After all, there is always room for improvement, no matter how good something is. However, there is no reason for being disrespectful or rude. These guys are busy and don’t owe us anything. If Bob, Rick or anyone else posts here, I don’t think there is any question that they love Star Trek.

343. captain_neill - March 8, 2011

342

I don’t mind the debate, I don’t expcect every fan to like every incarnation of Trek but I do feel it can sometimes be a little too rude and personal towards Rick Berman.

And it can go both ways.

Berman and Abrams are two links in the chain of the remarkable franchise.

344. Dom - March 8, 2011

249. Basement Blogger:

‘First, I apologize when I said you should read this website more often.’

Accepted.

‘That was to point out a couple stories that I was using to make my point about Gene Roddenberry and his vision for Star Trek. If you took offense, I apologize.’

Your tone was confrontational and only escalated from there into something bordering on irrational. Expect the same in kind. I still don’t recognise ‘Gene’s Vision’ as anything but a convenient fiction.

‘Second, you make some good points. Some that I agree with.’

I know. ;) Thank you! :)

‘Third, you’ve accused me of being “snarky”.

I didn’t accuse you: you were rude!

‘That’s a little like calling the kettle black.’

Nothing wrong with being black. Some of my best friends are! ;)

‘You did attack Rick Berman, those that like what he did, and then proceeded to attack me. I’ll just let your comments speak for themselves.’

Okey-dokey, let’s boogie!

‘Dom says, “Berman and his mob stole Star Trek from the people and kept it for a diminishing, quasi-religious fanbase.” @42′

Yep! That’s what I think and a lot of Trek fans think. It became TV for a select in-crowd! No wonder it disintegrated in the ratings and no one wanted to watch Nemesis!

‘Dom says, “I suggest you learn some manners! Isn’t nice to assume a fake identity and be sarky to people! Go to your local bar, walk up to someone’s face and talk to me like that! Go on, I dare you! I’ll sit by and laugh as you try to bleach out your urine stains afterwards.” @230′

You were rude. I suggested you be that rude to someone in a bar and see if you get out of there unbruised . . . unfortunately iOS autocomplete slightly mangled that sentence!! Not finding anything to be embarrassed about yet Bernie!

‘Dom says, “Maybe you should take some sedatives!” @230′

I don’t like having increasingly hyperbolic attacks made on me and words being put in my mouth. You were implying that I favour ignorant television. Your rhetoric was OTT by this point! Next thing I know, you’d have been blaming me for the Third Crusade!

‘I don’t think those are nice things to say.’

Well, jeez, I hate to get all playground on ya, Bernie, but you threw the first punches! As far as I’m concerned, if Ricky-boy or anyone else out there makes incendiary comments in public on a news page with a talkback, they’re fair game! I haven’t insulted him, his sexuality, his race, his choice in dining room furniture or anything else, merely his arrogance and wrongheadedness where aspects of Trek are concerned. The fact he persistently blames other people for his mistakes bugs a lot of us!

‘Anyway, since your are so concerned about my idenity let me explain. My moniker is taken from a comment Sarah Palin made about bloggers being in the basement.’

And for once she’s not far off, even if her head is normally far off!! We don’t have basements much in the UK, but people who sit around all day having time to post long blogs are probably living off benefits paid for by people like me who are at work earning money and being royally screwed by the taxman!

‘And yes, I know being accused of being in the basement is an insult. It’s my acknowledgment of being a geek, or nerd. I’m making fun of myself.’

I don’t think it’s necessary to be a geek or a nerd to like Star Trek. I’m not and I find nerds thoroughly annoying. They make it tough for sane people to admit to liking certain TV shows/films/books. Star Trek fans, IIRC, are among the fan groups most likely to be married/co-habiting who have kids and fall into a pretty good economic class. Sadly the nutjobs who like to go to the post office dressed as Lt Saavik get all the press!

‘By the way, my real name is Bernie Wong, which is pretty dull.’

It’s more exciting than Dom! ;)

‘P.S. I was at a bar last night and my underwear was clean when I left. :-)’

Well us nerds can’t expect to pull chicks we go out can we? Hee hee! ;)

345. Dom - March 8, 2011

340. Basement Blogger

‘And it goes both ways, the anit-Berman people can also be mean. One Trekker was commenting on the color of my underwear while leaving a bar. (@ 230)’

Again with putting words in my mouth! I suggested that if you went into a bar and were as offensive to a patron as you were being to me, they’d lamp you one and you’d pee your pants!

At the moment you’re implying you’re whiter than white, when you’re looking pretty tarnished!

You know what terms such as ‘joking around’ and ‘banter’ really mean on the web Bernie? ‘Bullying.’ And I won’t be bullied by nerds!

343. captain_neill

‘I don’t mind the debate, I don’t expcect every fan to like every incarnation of Trek but I do feel it can sometimes be a little too rude and personal towards Rick Berman.’

Thing is, the guy persistently blames other people. It’s not his fault he produced the critically-mauled Nemesis, for example: it’s the audience’s fault for not going to see it and the fans’ fault for not going to see it fifty times each! ‘Franchise fatigue’ is a viable excuse, except for the fact that, even when every iteration of Trek was in reruns across the world, audiences still went to see the first non-Berman Trek in fifteen years! If he’s rude about Trek fans, he can’t expect much in return!

346. ensign joe - March 8, 2011

OY!

347. dmduncan - March 8, 2011

338: “But instead of cutting off the balls of the millionaires that bought your governors you folks on the other side of the big pond seem to prefer to fantasize about UFOs or government agents following you.”

Millionaires bought our governors? Well now look how far you’ve come in just a few posts, spawning conspiracy theories of your own! Now that’s progress!

The UFO phenomenon is complicated and certainly no fantasy. That’s ignorant.

348. captain_neill - March 8, 2011

345

I will admit Berman made mistakes but I do feel Franchise Fatigue did have a factor to play in it.

The irony is that if Enterprose hasd done the style of Season 3 and 4 from the start then Enterprise might have succeeded in the ratings better.

I will admit that he should have taken a few more risks than he did, especially with Voyager.

But I balance out the good stuff with the bad and I still think there was a lot of great stuff done.

Regarding Nemesis, it was a disappointing film and a disappointing end to the TNG crew but I don’t think it’s a unwatchable film. It’s just a shame that the story was hacked to shreds and unlike Nick Meyer, Stuart Baird had no respect for Star Trek.

To me Stuart Baird is an excellent film editor, watch Superman, The Omen, Lethal Weapon to see that, but he is only pretty average as a director.

He was wrong for Star Trek.

Now I am not JJ Abrams biggest fan, but I will admit he was what Star Trek needed to get a shot in the arm to make it get back into the zone again. I can admit that although he made choices that I as a fan did not agree with I understand why he did them.

And believe it or not I do find the Abrams movie a lot better than Nemesis, but part of me still wishes that the TNG crew had one more movie before hand as I think they deserved a better send off than Nemesis.

349. keachick - March 8, 2011

#338 Zod – “We need enlightment, not mystification (and I hope this mystery stuff stays out of Trek which is also about enlightment).”

Eh? This is obtuse and contradictory.

Actually, much is unknown, therefore a mystery. Hence, “These are the voyages…to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilisations, to boldly go where no one has gone before.”

Mystery – “secret, hidden or inexplicable matter; obscurity; a puzzle” and shock/horror (my words) – “a religious truth divinely revealed, esp. one beyond human reason”.

Some encounters may not be so mysterious at all, easily perceived and understood. Others, though, may be anything but.

350. Basement Blogger - March 8, 2011

@ 344, 345 Dom

Live long and prosper.

Sincerely,
Bernie Wong aka Basement Blogger

351. ensign joe - March 8, 2011

“Millionaires bought our governors?”

I think #338 may be referring to the like and such:

“At the public dedication of MIT’s David H. Koch Integrative Cancer Institute last Friday, Sen. Scott Brown (R-MA) effusively thanked conservative billionaire David Koch for supporting his election in 2010 and made a plea for help in his re-election campaign next year. David Koch directly gave the National Republican Senatorial Committee $30,400 in November 2009, and the Koch Industries PAC threw in $15,000 to NRSC plus $5,000 more directly to Brown right before Brown’s special election”

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/07/scott-brown-david-koch-money/

just sayin.. yo

352. P Technobabble - March 8, 2011

Berman is no more entitled to insults, name-calling or other mean-spirited-ness than anyone else. In all sincerity, I see no reason for being sarcastic, antagonistic or anything else that causes division, conflict or anger. Then again, I find there is very little to indicate the human race aspires to anything greater than division, conflict or anger… some less than others, perhaps… maybe…
I think it should be sufficient for those who are the most antagonistic and insulting to simply say, “Mr. Berman, I really didn’t care for the direction you took Star Trek, it wasn’t my cup of tea,” and leave it at that. It does get the point across in a far more diplomatic way. Diplomacy… another activity many humans aren’t interested in…
As for the government… I really don’t care for the direction they are taking this country, or this world, it’s not my cup of tea…
As for ufos… whatever will be will be.

353. dmduncan - March 8, 2011

351. ensign joe – March 8, 2011

Yeah, I know what he meant. But that’s epidemic on both sides of the aisle. Barack Obama is in the same boat, probably much worse. It’s not a party problem, it’s a symptom of a much larger problem with politics itself also involving the people of this country, whereby too many people accept the corruption on their side and point it out on the other as if the other guy is evil and they are good.

Sorry. Doesn’t work that way. And people ARE waking up, despite the Chris Matthews circle jerk show, the O’Reilly No Fact Zone, and the rest of the zombie news media’s best attempts to keep everybody as anti inquisitive as possible.

354. dmduncan - March 8, 2011

“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
— Edward R. Murrow

“We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.”
— Edward R. Murrow

355. P Technobabble - March 8, 2011

353. dm

“…And people ARE waking up, despite the Chris Matthews circle jerk show, the O’Reilly No Fact Zone, and the rest of the zombie news media’s best attempts to keep everybody as anti inquisitive as possible…”

I believe one of the worsts things about the news is that it is presented in such a way that when people watch it they feel like they are somehow involved in the world.

356. Zod - March 8, 2011

@353: Increasing corporate control is indeed not a party problem. Honest left-winger should battle it because it causes inequity and facism whereas honest right-wingers should battle it because it has nothing to do with free-markets.

357. keachick - March 8, 2011

#356 Oddly, this issue is being discussed on another Star Trek message board and they are saying pretty much what is being said here. Zod – your statement needs to be quoted often. Excellent. Perhaps some who are still in a position of being able to stop increasing corporatisation may be given the clarity to be determine what needs doing.

358. keachick - March 8, 2011

Edit – “clarity to determine…” is what I meant.

359. dmduncan - March 8, 2011

358: “Perhaps some who are still in a position of being able to stop increasing corporatisation may be given the clarity to be determine what needs doing.”

This isn’t a recent phenomenon, Keachick. In America President Andrew Jackson had to fight tooth and nail to get rid of the central bankers, even surviving an assassination attempt, and after he succeeded, they rose from the grave like vampires to suck the blood of the living once again.

360. Red Dead Ryan - March 8, 2011

Corrupt democracies provide fertile grounds for idealistic would-be dictators. A dirty democracy will either be cleaned up by the people or will be dealt with by a tyrant. Complacency is the first enemy that allows the second foe, dictatorship, to arise.

361. Dom - March 9, 2011

348. captain_neill

I blame Rick Berman for Nemesis, not Stuart Baird! To play Devil’s advocate, Baird was brought in as a fresh face to the franchise, as was writer John Logan. Baird found himself up against the TNG ‘family’, day in day out, who clearly were hostile to an outsider, especially with a screenplay they seemed to dislike!

More than that, Stuart Baird didn’t write the screenplay. The Trek movies were heavily producer-driven and Baird was a hired hand who actually had some ambition to do something different. Instead, he was screwed over by a bunch of people who were to comfortable int their little bubble.

Berman locked himself in the edit suite in those final days with Stuart Baird and oversaw the hackery that led to the abortion that was Nemesis’ final cut!

Stuart Baird is a perfectly competent director and a good editor. I don’t think anyone could have saved Nemesis!

350. Basement Blogger

LOL!!

362. Hugh Hoyland - March 9, 2011

359 that could make for a good story…Andrew Jackson: Vampire Banker Slayer! A U.S. President fights the international bankers who actually turn out to be nothing less than Vampires bent on world domination.

In this story I want Jackson to actually win though. :]

363. captain_neill - March 9, 2011

361

I mentioned that Stuart Baird is one of the best editors in the business, he edited some of my favourite movies.

But from what I heard he did not do the homework that Nick Meyer did for The Wrath of Khan.

At one con in London I was told by one of the dealers who knew Baird that he couldn’t get his head around carpet on the Enterprise.

I don’t think Baird did a bad job at Nemesis and John Logan did some great Trek moments with the film. I think the problem with Nemesis was that it was a little too derivate of TWOK and 45 mins of the film was cut out and I think the stuff that was cut out was the stuff that we fans would have appreciated more.

Cutting 45 mins is very tricky in a film, look at Superman IV, it was orignally 140 mins cut down to 89 mins and that made the last part of the film incomprehensible. However, this was not the case with Nemesis but it could have fleshed things out a bit more if some of those scenes were left in.

I think like The Final Frontier, a great movie was waiting to get out of Nemesis but came out disappointing instead.

364. Dom - March 9, 2011

363. captain_neill

Then again, Baird didn’t need to do the same type of homework: he wasn’t writing the film, merely directing it. Personally, I think, if he had an issue with carpet on the ENT, for example, he should have been able to get it ripped up and replaced with whatever he wanted. Again, though, later Trek was producer-led in a far more dictatorial fashion than in the era of, say, Harve Bennett, who allowed his directors more artistic freedom. Also, remember Meyer came on board as part of a new team after an overblown artistic failure of a film that the cast had hated!

Normally, film tends to be director-led once the director is brought on board, with producers overseeing the pursestrings and other aspects as the director pursues his ideas. Berman seemed to run the film series like episodes of a TV show. Jonathan Frakes, for example had more freedom with First Contact and it leaked to the press that Berman was stamping down on him far more for Insurrectiom. As pure speculation, I wonder if Berman was afraid he’d lose the movies to the likes of Jonathan Frakes, the same way Gene Roddenberry lost the original Trek to the actors.

365. captain_neill - March 9, 2011

As a film buff I know the director has more freedom on film than he would on TV, on TV it’s the producers.

But a director has even more freedm when he is a producer, ie Tim Burton had more freedom with Batman Returns than he did with Batman.

I always heard Jonathan Frakes say that he felt he had more style to Insurrection even though he admitted the story was not as strong

366. dmduncan - March 9, 2011

363. Hugh Hoyland – March 9, 2011

359 that could make for a good story…Andrew Jackson: Vampire Banker Slayer! A U.S. President fights the international bankers who actually turn out to be nothing less than Vampires bent on world domination.

***

He did win! But you can’t keep the unholy bastards buried.

But yeah, it makes more sense to put Andrew Jackson in that role than Lincoln, which that movie is doing.

367. Hugh Hoyland - March 9, 2011

366 dmduncan

Hosestly, I think it would have been better if they did put Jackson in it instead of Abe (nothing against him of course). But it would just be cooler. Maybe a different story with Jackson fighting another moster (s), zombies perhapes?

368. dmduncan - March 9, 2011

368. Hugh Hoyland – March 9, 2011

How about aliens? Aliens posing as central bankers. Jackson discovers the truth and realizes nobody will believe it. He has to destroy them himself. He has to do it while keeping the real reason why he is doing it secret. The truth is only discovered in the 21st century when a diary of his exploits is discovered when a hole in the wall of the oval office is accidentally made by the sitting president, and the diary is found inside.

369. dmduncan - March 9, 2011

By the end of the story, the sitting president suspects that the chairman of the Federal Reserve is one of them. He invites him to his office and during an answer to one of the president’s questions, the president hits a home run on his head from behind with a Louisville slugger.

Bloody chaos — and tentacles — erupt from the man’s head. Secret Service agents enter the office and shoot the alien the president is wrestling with dead.

With Jackson’s diary in one hand, a baseball bat in the other, and two trusty secret service agents who know the truth, it’s time to clean house the old fashioned way.

The end.

370. Hugh Hoyland - March 9, 2011

369 dmduncan

That rocks actually!

371. keachick - March 9, 2011

In the days of MIB, the aliens were just postal workers. What happened?

372. Red Dead Ryan - March 9, 2011

371

“In the days of MIB, the aliens were just postal workers. What happened?”

They became DISGRUNTLED postal workers and went “postal” and zapped everybody in the office with ray guns!

373. dmduncan - March 9, 2011

370. Hugh Hoyland – March 9, 2011

Hey thanks. At least sounds more relevant (and fun) than a vampire hunting Lincoln.

374. Jim - March 10, 2011

I can’t see Brando as Soran. He was fat back then, how could he move?

375. Phil - March 10, 2011

374. Jim – March 10, 2011

So was Shatner. Stuntmen.

376. keachick - March 10, 2011

Just because you are big (fat?) does not mean that you cannot move. I have seen some really big guys who are really fast on their feet. Bigness may also relate to how muscle a person is carrying and muscle weighs heavier than fat. The fact that William Shatner was/is fairly fit, a keen horserider (despite having had a hip replacement) tells me that what you are seeing may be more in the way of toned muscle rather than mere fat. Not that stuntmen weren’t used. Most (if not, all) actors doing action scenes have a back up look-a-like stuntman on hand – to do with safety and in-s-rance issues.

Besides, appearing bigger/heavier/fatter is something that the majority of human beings have to deal with as a natural part of the ageing process. It does not necessarily mean being unfit or unhealthy. In fact, it is the really slim/skinny older people who tend to have more health problems – heart attacks, blood pressure problems and in particular, osteoporosis.

377. captain_neill - March 11, 2011

374

In one movie Marlon Brando apparently wore no trousers to make sure he was never filmed below his waist.

Marlon brando wasa legend of course but I think Malcolm McDowell was the better choice. Malcolm McDowell is a great actor and I always find him an interesting actor to watch, I loved him in A Clockwork Orange.

378. Basement Blogger - March 11, 2011

@ 377 Captain_Neill

In the movie where you say he did not wear any trousers, are you talking about “The Island of Dr. Moreau?” (1996) The comedy South Park skewers Brando in that role by having a mad scientis obviously based on him.

Yeah, Brando was a legend but Malcolm McDowell always brings an element of danger to anything he does.

379. captain_neill - March 12, 2011

378

Not sure what film it was, just remember it being on a showbiz news item once.

380. Harry Ballz - March 12, 2011

Sounds like one of those “Travelling Pants” movies. :>)

381. James S. - March 29, 2011

I will never forgive Berman and co for killing Kirk, Data and Jadzia Dax! He should listen to the fans, the guy is arrogant.

382. James S. - March 29, 2011

Oh yes and for Enterprise. I have erase that from my memory

383. Danny - October 22, 2011

Ron Jones music was great for star trek, The show is supposed to be epic. I missed his scores. After him, it was mainly a few string riffs and maybe something palatable for battles. Berman did good work with Star Trek but he was an idiot for letting Jones go as a composer. I think by the time Enterprise came along they were on burn out and should have ended it with Voyager.

384. GimmeMoreTrek - February 1, 2012

I agree with Berman, that sometimes the score takes up too much attention. HOWEVER… some episodes called for sweeping, epic music, but all we got was some drawn out monotone strings which were harmonious when the imagery was calm, and dissonant when there was action… very very predictable, and sounded the same week after week.
I think the only score I remember was from Voyager’s double ep. Scorpion, but that’s in.

Oh and Rick Berman did not intentionally kill Jadzia Dax – Terry Farrell left the show to be in another show that was soon to launch. I think it was necessary to kill Jadzia to still keep the character, and it gave us a great chance to explore the death aspect of the Trill and the passing down of the symbionts.

As far as I’m concerned, Berman was the man who got me into Star Trek, and I wasn’t really a fan of TNG until a well into 3rd season.

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