Kurtzman and Pine: Star Trek Sequel Crew Still On Journey To TOS Crew + Cumberbatch’s Villain Helps Kirk ‘Grow’ | TrekMovie.com
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Kurtzman and Pine: Star Trek Sequel Crew Still On Journey To TOS Crew + Cumberbatch’s Villain Helps Kirk ‘Grow’ June 28, 2012

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman,ST09 Cast,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

In the last day as part of their People Like Us publicity tour, both director Alex Kurtzman and star Chris Pine have ended up discussing the Star Trek sequel and specifically the arc of Kirk and the crew of the USS Enterprise, with both noting that the end of the 2009 movie was not the end of their journey to becoming like the crew of the original series. Pine also talked about Benedict Cumberbatch and how his villain brings out the best qualities in Kirk’s journey.

 

Kurtzman: New Star Trek crew still figuring out who they are

People Like Us director Alex Kurtzman talked to the Hollywood Reporter about Star Trek, and specifically on where the crew is on their arc of becoming the crew of the series…

The Hollywood Reporter: If theoretically Star Trek 2 examines what it means for Kirk to be Captain, how much is the film a Quantum of Solace follow-up that starts right after the first film, and how much does it take place some time after the events of Star Trek?

Alex Kurtzman: I can’t answer your question directly, but I can say the assumption that we did not want to make was that just because he’s in the chair and they’re on the bridge together that they’re the crew that you remember from the original series. They’re not — the crew from the original series had gone on many, many journeys, they were a well-oiled machine in terms of how they function, and these characters are still figuring out who they are and who they are to each other. And I did not want to jump so far ahead that we missed a really important emotional connection to that transition for them.

and later in the interview (in the context of discussing leaving films with open-questions and Prometheus), Alex elaborated on Star Trek and Kirk, saying…

…I tend to look at things first and foremost as a character’s journey from beginning to end, and oftentimes the journey won’t be resolved at the end, it will just be the completion of whatever that moment in their journey is. Jim Kirk, for example, inherits the Enterprise at the end of Star Trek but that doesn’t mean he fully understands what it means to be Captain. It just means, oh, he has the Enterprise now — so now what? He’s never sent men and women to their deaths before, so what’s going to happen when that kind of question comes up for him?

Check out THR for the full interview.


The bridge crew in their places at the end of 2009’s "Star Trek" – but according to Kurtzman – still on their journey to being the crew of the original "Star Trek"

Pine talks Kirk’s arc and Cumberbatch’s Villain

Speaking to MTV, Chris Pine spoke about the arc Kirk takes in the Star Trek sequel noting:

[Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof] are very good at writing myth and these characters…go on mythic arcs. It is all about growing up. These are young men and women. They are not the crew that we know from the series, they are developing into that. And it is a long way to go there.

Pine also talked about working with Benedict Cumberbatch

It is structured so that the antagonist brings out all of the qualities that need to happen for Kirk to grow…Vocally he is fascinating. He has this resonate voice. He’s got a fascinating face. He’s a lovely guy and super smart. What you want with a bad guy in any film is intelligence. You want to see something firing in his brain so he isn’t just a blood dripping from the fangs sort of bad guy and Benedict brings those kinds of smarts.

Here is the video…     

Get More: Movie Trailers, Movies Blog

 

Comments

1. MJ - June 28, 2012

This sounds great !!!!!

2. EM - June 28, 2012

Cannot wait to see Mr. Cumberbatch in this movie!

3. VZX - June 28, 2012

Re: Kurtzman’s quote: “He’s never sent men and women to their deaths before”.

This is one of those things that really bothered me when Kirk was promoted to captain so quickly. I would think that a person in the military in pursuit of command would have to endure many of the hardships associated with command, including making those tough life & death decisions.

4. mr. trek77 - June 28, 2012

its because its a movie:-)

But again, is was wrong, but still, would it had been better he were commander instead ???

And later promoted to captain???
Maybe, but it wound´t had sold the movie in same way I think…..

5. mr. trek77 - June 28, 2012

would not, not wound´t …sorry :-)

6. KMKProd - June 28, 2012

Kirk should’ve been merritoriously promoted to Lieutenant (passed Ensign and LTjg) and sent on to one of the ships he was supposed to serve on (ala TOS timeline) to gain experience. Then have the sequel be a few years later when he’s assuming command and really forming the beginning of the TOS crew. They rushed the first one to bring everyone together; not everyone needed to be in the 2009 film, they could’ve built up to it, IMHO.

7. Snugglepuff - June 28, 2012

@ VZX you are absolutely right. Unfortunately Star Trek has gotten away from many of its naval roots.

8. DUNN - June 28, 2012

Excited to see a bit more emotional growth from this set of characters. The first film was great, but I am definitely excited at the reports of a bit more depth from the next one. Think I’ve got the villain predicted too: Garth of Izar. He’s ex-Starfleet, he’s crazy, he’s got psionic powers…it would be kind of like an evil future Bourne. Plus, the Klingons would be getting involved in the investigation due to (perhaps) some hidden knowledge Garth attained related to Klingon tech/military strategy from his time serving during the Axanar Peace Mission.

9. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

I don’t know, but I think I prefer a slower developing arc for the characters. If anything the movie jumped ahead too quickly, with the promotion and all. Difficult to believe. The characteristics should begin to take shape now.

10. MJ - June 28, 2012

@3 “This is one of those things that really bothered me when Kirk was promoted to captain so quickly. I would think that a person in the military in pursuit of command would have to endure many of the hardships associated with command, including making those tough life & death decisions.”

You must have missed the entire Kirk theme at the first part of the movie where Kirk was kind of genius-jerk-party boy BECAUSE HE HAD SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE UP UNTIL THAT POINT dealing and thinking about how his father had made a command life and death decision which ending up sacrificing his life to save his mother, him and hundreds of Starfleet personnel. If anybody gets that at a young age, it is certainly Kirk. Duh! :-)

And enough whining about the promotion please — we’ve debated that to death so many time now on these boards. Boooorrrring!!! Enough!

11. Federali Aundy - June 28, 2012

I am super stoked for Trek 2. I hope by Trek 3 we can move on to the crew as we know them or at least a “well-oiled” machine given the events of Trek 2. Enterprise struggled because it tried to show how Earth turned into the Utopia of the Federation – something that is really impossible from the start and never achieved. I hope that the new cast won’t suffer from the same problem, never quite able to transform the crew from academy days into five-year mission mode…

12. Anthony Thompson - June 28, 2012

I’m surprised that no one has griped about the ‘Star Trek 2′ mentions yet. Get used to it folks: most people (correctly) perceive this to be an all-new film series.

13. Anthony Pascale - June 28, 2012

Until they give the film a title the media will call it “Star Trek 2″ because it is easier than saying “Untitled Star Trek Sequel”. It isn’t really something to gripe about. They used “Batman 2″ for Nolan’s second Batman until it got the title The Dark Knight. Cameron’s Avatar sequel is being called Avatar 2 even though it probably wont even have Avatar in the title (IIRC he said he wouldn’t). 2 is just easy shorthand to talk about it, nothing more

14. Enterprisingguy - June 28, 2012

10. MJ – June 28, 2012

@3 “This is one of those things that really bothered me when Kirk was promoted to captain so quickly. I would think that a person in the military in pursuit of command would have to endure many of the hardships associated with command, including making those tough life & death decisions.”
———————-
You must have missed the entire Kirk theme at the first part of the movie where Kirk was kind of genius-jerk-party boy BECAUSE HE HAD SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE UP UNTIL THAT POINT dealing and thinking about how his father had made a command life and death decision which ending up sacrificing his life to save his mother, him and hundreds of Starfleet personnel. If anybody gets that at a young age, it is certainly Kirk. Duh! :-)

———————–

The only thing that apparently was missed was where ANY of the assumptions you just made were shown. All we know is that Kirk was a punk who didn’t know what to do with his life. Where was it made clear that he was “spending his entire life” dealing with it? Duh?….indeed!

What makes Kirk suited to make life and death decisions? Choosing to put yourself in danger or sacrifice yourself for others is totally different than imposing that choice on another under your command.

As far as the promotion debate……it’s not your place to determine when it’s been discussed enough. I find the angle of his rapid promotion denying him the experiences to help him learn to make life and death decisions to be a valid and fresh angle to the debate. Feel free not to join in if it bores you.

15. Harry Ballz - June 28, 2012

This ties in to what I predicted months ago….it would seem that Kirk will be in a relationship with Alice Eve’s character, Cumberbatch tortures and kills her, Kirk goes apesh*t and fight’s Cumby to the death. It is truly the traumatic experience of young Kirk’s life.

This then explains why James Kirk never falls in love again, freeing him up to go humping half the women of the galaxy in his travels.

16. Vultan - June 28, 2012

Wow, look at that first picture. Is Kurtzman going for the Gene Shalit look?

17. SoonerDave - June 28, 2012

“>He’s never sent men and women to their deaths before, so what’s going to happen when that kind of question comes up for him?”

Foreshadowing, guys. All this “boldness” talk being tossed around, talk about “big” moves like destroying Vulcan…I think we’re being set up to have a major character axed in this movie. Can’t get any more pointed than that line above IMHO.

The one thing that would put an inexorable wedge/tie between JJKirk and JJSpock would be the death of JJUhura. Then JJMcCoy could serve as the arbiter of their relationship at the end.

18. Christopher Roberts - June 28, 2012

Ah…

——————————
TO   BOLDLY   GROW
—————– Star Trek

;)

19. Chris Doohan - June 28, 2012

I think I’ll see this movie…..Oh, like 20 times

20. Daoud - June 28, 2012

Kirk served in the Federation Merchant Marine Service from enlistment at age 16 to get away from Frank, up until the point we see him again riding his motorbike across Iowa at age 24 or so. Makes perfect sense, and gives him 8 years of qualifying merchant fleet service on top of his 4 at the academy.
.
It makes sense, so it’s the backstory I choose to apply to nuKirk. He’s kind of an O’Brien it seems anyway. If only Boborci would fill in that big gap from crashing his dad’s car in the quarry, to his riding across the Riverside landscape on his bike…. at least in the comic books or something.

21. The Quickening - June 28, 2012

#14

Couldn’t have been said any better, Enterprisingguy. Thanks

22. Jason - June 28, 2012

#11 This will NEVER be the “crew we all know and love” because this isn’t really the TOS crew. This is Kurtzman, Orci and JJ’s view of the TOS crew. Big difference!

23. Kev -1 - June 28, 2012

In 1966, NBC billed “Star Trek” as the “first adult space adventure.” Shows like “Space Patrol” and “Captain VIdeo” – entertaining shows — had already explored the same territory from a child’s perspective. And why would anybody who wasn’t completely qualified be placed in command of Starfleet’s flagship in the first place?

24. Anthony Thompson - June 28, 2012

19. Chris Doohan

Are you in the movie? I’ll keep nagging until you answer. : )

25. Anthony Thompson - June 28, 2012

13. Anthony P.

Actually, I was referring to those who insist on calling it Star Trek 12.

26. Michael Hall - June 28, 2012

“They are not the crew that we know from the series, they are developing into that. And it is a long way to go there.”

They will never be the crew that we know from the series. Alternate universe, remember?

That said, there’s a world of difference between having these characters dramatically play off of each other in a believable way, as opposed to portraying them as so raw and incapable of working together to the extent that it’s no longer understandable why they would have been entrusted with starfleet’s flagship in the first place. TOS (as opposed to the later shows) was often at its best when these people didn’t behave perfectly, but if this version of that crew acts like it’s still in high school, what they would require is adult supervision, not sinecures on the bridge of a ship powerful enough to level planets. We’ll see next year.

27. Commodore 64 - June 28, 2012

Looking forward to Star Trek 12 coming out, I already saw 2.

28. Jeyl - June 28, 2012

By “grow as a character” I’m betting that Kirk doesn’t even bother contacting the bad guys to offer aid and just orders all weapons fired.

29. Captain Ransom - June 28, 2012

#6: you are exactly right. trek 09 was just poor storytelling and poor filmmaking. no different than battleship. kirk goes from cadet to captain in the span of a few hours or the course of a few days as the movie timeline goes. what utter BS. it would have been better done over an arc of three movies. most characters on the shows were never promoted over a seven year storyline.

30. Stokieapock - June 28, 2012

Oh god this film is going to be amazing !!!

31. Stokiespock - June 28, 2012

Oh god this film is going to be amazing !!! I love chris
Pine what a a great actor and can’t wait to see the batch !!!

32. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

14. Enterprisingguy, soon you’ll be suggesting we have civil discourse and indepth discussion about all things Trek, and cease trolling around, seeking to stir up trouble, picking fights, and acting pushy, trying to run the place like we own it. If only we had some kind of model we could base all this on.

33. MDSHiPMN - June 28, 2012

The first movie didn’t wow me. I liked it, but I didn’t love it.

I had the feeling after watching The Dark Night of not being able to wait to go back to the theater to see it a second and third times.

I want Star Trek 2 to do that. Please.

I think Star Trek tried to “please too many masters”, for lack of better term.

Is it a movie for trekkies, or non-trekkies? Is it a family flick or action flick? Is it a reboot or not? Change too much, or too little?

I don’t want this next film to be Star Trek doing Star Wars, I just want a bad ass Star Trek movie.

R2D2? Really?

Tainted.

34. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

I was hoping that they might allude to some missing period of growth or promotion that took place during the first movie that might provide more depth and context to the events we witnessed. But knowing JJ’s penchant for rapid fire scenes, I doubt he’ll have the time.

35. MDSHiPMN - June 28, 2012

I guess there’s a “K” in Knight, huh?

36. MDSHiPMN - June 28, 2012

34 moauvian waoul – aka: seymour hiney:

Lol, lol, lol.

I hope so too, but, ya.

Rapid-fire, fast-cut scenes; fast pace music; shouting; running; laser-beams; R2D2… wait… what?

37. Jack - June 28, 2012

15. Interesting: Kirk hasn’t had his “I can’t be Superman and be with Lois Lane” moment yet. The Carol Marcus story was a very good explanation for that, years after the fact.

32. “If only we had some kind of model we could base all this on.”

Ha! Exactly.

It’s why I get sad whenever talks here turn to politics and ideas of equality, prejudice, bigotry, domatism, ideology and civil rights and Anthony pulls the plug (especially, it seems, whenever gay issues come up). I get that it’s tough to talk through these things without crazy entering the picture. And, of course, we’ll solve nothing here. But, heck, looking at these things is what Trek’s always been about to me…

38. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

36. MDSHiPMN – Aw man. You’re killing my buzz.

39. Phil - June 28, 2012

“……but that doesn’t mean he fully understands what it means to be Captain. It just means, oh, he has the Enterprise now — so now what? He’s never sent men and women to their deaths before, so what’s going to happen when that kind of question comes up for him?”

Okay, I know it’s filmed and done, but no no no no No No NO NO NO! I was willing to suspend disbelief in the last story, thinking that it was possible for some time to pass, for Cadet to Captain Kirk to take care of his legal troubles at the academy, train, qualify, get the Enterprise repaired, or whatever, to gain some experience.Sorry, but Kurtzman is straining credibility even further by suggesting that command in Starfleet is on the job training. My son is in the Navy, and that is a rediculious notion in this day and age, to suggest that turning what amounts to a bunch of kids loose in a starship capable of leveling a planet, and just hoping they don’t foul things up is just ludicrious.

Regardless, I’ll still see the movie….

40. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

37 Yeah Jack I tend to agree (since I’m one of those teetering on the brink of extinction) It seems in keeping with the spirit of the show. But I also see where he’s coming from. Maybe if we all behaved better Anthony wouldn’t need to use the hammer. This place can turn into a mosh pit on a dime, and like you said, nothing is settled. Ah well.

41. Dee - lvs moon' surface - June 28, 2012

Star Trek: The Crew is growing up faces the fascinating villain!………….. ;-) :-)

42. Christopher Roberts - June 28, 2012

Very small picture… but Alex seems to have a Salvador Dali thing going-on with his facial hair! :-}

43. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

Look, for the final time, Kirk’s fast promotion made sense.

A) He displayed command abilities in trying to stop the drilling of Vulcan. He failed, but defeated a number of Romulan thugs and also saved Sulu’s life.

B) He showed tremendous courage and command ability when he boarded the Narada, saved Captain Pike, and defeated Nero, saving Earth (and quite possibly the entire Federation) in the process.

C) A large number of Federation ships were destroyed at Vulcan. A lot of captains, and first officers were lost. Starfleet was in no position to pass over potential captains, even one as young and relatively inexperienced as James T. Kirk. Had Starfleet not suffered the losses it did, Kirk probably would have only been promoted to lieutenant, maybe commander at the maximum. However, the situation warranted his promotion to captain.

D) Spock Prime most likely put in a good word to Starfleet on Kirk’s behalf. Starfleet would have been foolish to ignore his advice.

CASE CLOSED. END OF STORY. TIME TO MOVE ON!!!!

44. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

Mm, that promotion thing, …not buying it. But I do appreciate you positive spin.

45. K-7 - June 28, 2012

#10

That is telling them, MJ. Coundn’t have said it any better myself.

Thank You!

46. Worf_Jadzia forever - June 28, 2012

All these sounds amazing! I loved Star Trek 2009 and I can’t wait to see more or the new universe!

47. Vultan - June 28, 2012

Well, Captain Kidd is who he is. It’s been filmed. It’s done, no matter how poor a decision it was (something that could’ve been easily corrected with a short montage of Kirk’s rise through the ranks). But hey, it’s done. I can live with it.

Just as long as he’s a bit more mature in this new one.
Animal House in space ain’t gonna fly again. Swollen hands anyone?

48. David - June 28, 2012

boborci

Not sure if this question is a little too political for this thread so Anthony might delete it but….

I was just reading your Wikipedia bio and it states that “Orci was born in Mexico City to a Mexican father and a Cuban mother. His mother had left Cuba for Mexico after Fidel Castro came to power.” When you write about the villains for your films, do you draw on this experience? Does Castro’s oppression of the Cuban people influence your work in any way?

49. Enterprisingguy - June 28, 2012

43. Red Dead Ryan – June 28, 2012

Look, for the final time, Kirk’s fast promotion made sense.

——————————–

Sure it did!! If you have no sense that is!

I doubt if he even had time to read the owners manual.

Seriously though, your excuses are paper thin. There were many more senior officers just on that ship alone that were more qualified than a “cadet” whether he showed command ability or not. Why would they be so desperate for captain material anyway if they had just lost all those ships as you mentioned? One ship…one captain. That’s all you need. They wouldn’t be needing replacement captains until they built replacement ships. Which in the movie it appeared over 3 years or more just to build the Enterprise. It was only half done when Kirk went to the academy. So even if he “did it in three” it was more likely 5 years to build the ship.

To make the promotion plausible all they had to do was fast forward the story from when he join Starfleet to him being a LT. back from assignment on another ship for the Kobiashi Maru test when the attack on Vulcan started. It would have easily explained why he was there, it would have given a believable reason to be put on the Enterprise during the crisis, and it would have been much more believable that he would be promoted to Captain for his actions.

50. Phil - June 28, 2012

Hi there, I’m Intern Bob, and I’ll be performing your brain surgery today. I have not actually done a brain surgery yet, but I got a buddy of mine to reprogram the brain surgery simulator at the university and it was amazing, it was like I could not make a mistake. The dean was about to put me on probation for that little stunt when the bus crashed outside of the office by the gas station next to the orphanage. I was able to save the people in the bus by following the instructions on the emergency door. Man, I’m glad fire extinguishers have instructions on them, it didn’t take any time at all to put the fire out, either. The dean was so impressed that she awarded me my doctorate, told me to skip my residency, and sent me right over here to fix you up. Now, where shall we begin…..

Yep, make perfect sense…..

51. NuFan - June 28, 2012

Sounds very good to me.

52. Obsidian - June 28, 2012

Hmmm. I hope it doesn’t take -too- long for the crew to gel (or is it Jell?).

I look forward to revisiting our well-oiled machine of a crew, as it was in the series.

53. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

#49.

Look, genius, I explained the reasons for Kirk’s promotion. I gave some hard facts and filled in the blanks with sensible explanations and you blew it all off. Besides, the movie is three years old. What’s done is done. If you don’t like it, too bad.

TOUGH!!

54. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

#50.

Nice try, Phil!

55. Nelson - June 28, 2012

The main thing I think Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci may have not interpreted that clearly is that the crew of TOS in very early episodes were not that we’ll oiled a machine yet.

They have been a crew a while yes, but partly due to the series being new and the writers and actors were all getting their feet grounded in the series and the characters, I think it’s very apparent in the early episodes that these guys were still getting to know each other.

Of course, the character the least developed is Spock. Isn’t it ironic that Quinto gets to play Spock with all the knowledge from Leonard Nimoy’s tutelage, yet, when Nimoy first plays the role, he’s still not fully grasped the character yet. So he smiles and makes crude comments to Yeoman Rand. I suppose in Star Trek 2009, they wrote that into the story by having Spock and Uhura as a couple. Something I cannot buy. Sorry. Sure, Uhura sort of flirts with Spock in The Man Trap, but that is a far cry from a character so closed off to emotion and intimacy, that he’d be that different in an alternate timeline.

To me, what made Kirk is his time on other ships gaining experience and learning from other leaders, like Garrovik. The new Pine/Kirk doesn’t get that history. Or does he? Perhaps there’s some wisdom from the Spock Prime mind meld. But I don’t know.

So my main issue is for the writers to say the TOS crew was that well oiled and experienced together. It is true this new alternate universe crew is new to each other and have no development together yet. So for a film project that makes some sense.

I love TOS and grew up on it. It’s the real Star Trek. This new film series is Star Trek lite. And a big problem for me is the series should never have become a film series. It should have become a new TV series. Or mini series with a few films per year so as in a regular series, the characters actually get to develop. Each film can only focus on the main stars and then focus on the mindless action because the bottom line is to get a huge box office the first weekend. So no one gets to develop and grow.

56. Jack - June 28, 2012

43. Thanks for settling that for everyone.

Anything can be rationalized.

If people are saying they didn’t like it, they didn’t like it. Fine, you thought it made sense. Nobody can disagree?

Look, I know it’s not real. But it didn’t ‘t feel quite right — to me anyway. Yes, one can invent a thousand cockamamie explanations. Whatever, it’s done. But it was a little too neat for my liking, which is the trouble with origins stories.

Yep, anything else — ending with them all going off in different directions and then flashing forward to them all, at some point in the future, together on the Bridge in their normal role, without having to explain the decade in between — would have been clunky, arguably. When you have your cake and eat it too, some things won’t quite work…

But — it sounds like they still want to tell stories about these characters becoming who they became — and the cleanest way is to have them all in their TOS roles…

57. Jack - June 28, 2012

55. “when Nimoy first plays the role, he’s still not fully grasped the character yet”

Yep. But not just Nimoy — the producers, writers and directors.

58. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

#56.

“Thanks for settling that for everyone.”

You’re welcome! :-)

Also, remember back in the day of “Deep Space Nine” there was an episode where Worf and Dax try to kill his brother, Kurn, to spare him the humiliaton and disgrace of being Worf’s brother after the House of Mogh was dissolved by Gowron. Sisko merely admonished them when in reality, Worf and Dax would have been arrested, put on trial, and sentanced to at least several years in prison for attempted murder.

Not to mention that Lieutenant Sulu ended up as captain of the Excelsior despite never been in command of anything before that. When did we see Sulu lead a landing party? Or force to take command of the Enterprise in an emergency situation? Never. One day Sulu just ended up captain of the Excelsior for no apparent reason. It just happened.

So you see, this whole Kirk’s promotion thing is no worse than other “plot holes” from prior Trek episodes and movies. But for some reason, it really drives some people nutty.

59. Charla - June 28, 2012

So exciting!! Can’t wait!! So many possibilities… :D Great article, Anthony-

Oh and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to CHriS DooHAN!! Here’s to many more! *clink of wine glasses for a toast*

60. K-7 - June 28, 2012

#49. Enterprisingguy, just to bring you up to date since it appears you are a newbie. We’ve debated this probably 7 or 8 times the past three years already here. As a newbie here, you are really late to game to bring up this complaining about the promotion same old stuff again. You are just going to start another shitstorm here again between the same group of folks on both sides of the aisle on this one. And for the most part, the arguments from those making the case for Kirk’s promotion have prevailed on previous occasions, but it has always been a painful process to get limited consensus on that by the majority.

Good God Man, this is getting so old now. Do we really have to explain it all over again for the benefit of these newbies?

61. E - June 28, 2012

I’m a bit skeptical about Cumberbatch mo-capping and voicing Smaug and the Necromancer but with Pine’s statement about his voice and face plus Mckellan’s praise about his audition. Both characters seem to be in greatly capable hands.

62. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

#60.

Agreed. Well said! :-)

63. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

Wow, that’s any amazing story Phil, I-I mean Bob. I have just one request: Me first!

64. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - June 28, 2012

This argument about promotions is so 2009. I like to open the floor to a brand new issue. Delta Vega! Now that’s a shitstorm I can really enjoy! Something for everyone. On deck: Lens Flares, 3D vs 2D, budgenerring, Star Trek vs. Star Wars and Spock luvs Uhura. Can’t wait!

65. I loved ST but.... - June 28, 2012

I am glad they are addressing the issue that Kirk, no matter how smart or talented, would really get command of of a starship. There is alot of growth that goes on between ensign and Captain.

66. Phil - June 28, 2012

@65. Apparently not in Starfleet. Seems like anyone who does a good deed is in line for a command.

67. The TOS Purist aka The Purolator - June 28, 2012

They’re never going to want these new people to ever be “like the TOS crew,” so they are never going to reach that goal. I hope people realize that.

68. Red Shirt Diaries - June 28, 2012

@66. Well, anyone who saves twenty trillion people anyway. LOL

69. Jack - June 28, 2012

60. It’s been discussed here before. So what? People have been analyzing Shakespeare forever and still do.

“And for the most part, the arguments from those making the case for Kirk’s promotion have prevailed on previous occasions, but it has always been a painful process to get limited consensus on that by the majority.”

They’ve never, ever convinced me. There’s no in-universe, in-text explanation, and anything else is complete speculation. It simply doesn’t make sense. It’s fine, it’s not real and doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the movie. What interests me is why they did it and whether there was any intent — is the message really, all that matters is what/who you were born to be? All the talk of destiny is great for a comic book character, but it doesn’t seem right for Star Trek. And I don’t like Star Trek being steeped in mythology, and I’m not sure why — maybe because i want it to have some connection to the real world, even though that’s ridiculous… growing up in the 70s and 80s with constant talk of imminent nuclear war, total resource depletion, total environmental destruction (not to mention AIDs, poverty, growing inequality between classes, idealogical fear mongering, constant conflicts, people going bankrupt because of illness), Star Trek was pretty rare for Science Fiction in that it pointed toa future where science, hard work, cooperation, abandoning self-interest and the thirst for knowledge and discovery helped us to stop willingly fu*king everything up.

And why does this issue (whether it makes sense or not) have to be something that you have to convince people of? Since when is a discussion about bending others to your will? Or reaching consensus. If you don’t want to engage on the issue again, then don’t…

70. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 28, 2012

Oh, please stop arguing about the promotion of Kirk in this new timeline. It is done already and no doubt we will see what eventuates from that dubious decision on the part of some in Starfleet, in the sequel.

I am pleased so far about what I am hearing about this sequel. This is not TOS. It is based closely on TOS scenarios and characters and personally I am OK with that.

#10 – I am with you, MJ, on this. Even Pike alluded to the angst that the young Kirk felt when Pike confronted Kirk and asked him to join Starfleet. Every single birthday that James Kirk and his mother celebrate is also a memorial day of the death of a father and husband…and yet some think that this young Kirk doesn’t get it. That’s the point. He does get it, especially after Pike helped Kirk see his father’s decisions and actions in a different way, unlike young programmers of stupid Kobiyashi Maru simulation exercises.

Chris Pine is enthusiastic and positive, but clearly this has not affected, in any way, the mindset of many posting here. So sad, so tiring.

71. Michael Hall - June 28, 2012

“Not to mention that Lieutenant Sulu ended up as captain of the Excelsior despite never been in command of anything before that. When did we see Sulu lead a landing party? Or force to take command of the Enterprise in an emergency situation? Never. One day Sulu just ended up captain of the Excelsior for no apparent reason. It just happened.”

Um, no. Fact is, there was a mention made of Sulu being awarded the captaincy of the Excelsior in THE WRATH OF KHAN during the docking sequence, but it was cut for time (it did make it into Vonda Macintyre’s novelization of the film). And even if you don’t buy that as ‘canon,’ it was a decade-and-a-half in “Star Trek years” between the events of THE MOTION PICTURE (where Sulu had already been promoted to Lieutenant Commander) and those of THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. As a member of Kirk’s command staff, it’s highly unlikely that Sulu would have remained a “cosmic bus driver” forever–it’s precisely the opposite thing in terms of logic, in fact, than NuKirk’s warp speed promotion. Try again.

“And for the most part, the arguments from those making the case for Kirk’s promotion have prevailed on previous occasions. . .”

Says you. In any case, whatever the merits of your arguments, your authoritarian attempts to stifle debate on this subject are inappropriate

72. Vultan - June 28, 2012

#56

Well put, Jack. I wish others would stop trying to rationalize this particular bit of bad writing by pointing to other examples of bad writing in Treks past.

But hey, bad writing and fans rationalizing so it can make sense is something of a Star Trek tradition.

Khan to Chekov: “I never forget a face.”

73. Jack - June 28, 2012

58. Yes, Trek isn’t perfect. Nor is any story. But all those examples are the equivalent of saying “Billy did this and his mom didn’t get mad at him, so why am I getting in trouble?”

Other episodes have had unlikely scenarios, but what does that have to do with this? They did it so Orci and company can too?

74. Sebastian S. - June 28, 2012

I like Pine’s talk about ‘the villain.’ Says so much about Kirk’s relationship with the villain and how he helps Kirk to grow without once revealing the villain’s identity. Clever.

As McCoy said about Zefram Cochrane in ‘Metamorphosis’, “He talks a lot but doesn’t say much….”

JJ Abrams, my compliments; you have your cast well-trained. ;-D

75. Sebastian S. - June 28, 2012

# 70

Agreeing with Michael Hall.

Sulu also commanded the Enterprise MANY times in TOS, “Arena” (while the crew were on Cestus 3), “Errand of Mercy”, and “Savage Curtain” to name a few…. he was ready (when he received his captaincy of the Excelsior).

Even Spock called Sulu a seasoned combat officer.

76. Jack - June 28, 2012

“Not to mention that Lieutenant Sulu ended up as captain of the Excelsior despite never been in command of anything before that. When did we see Sulu lead a landing party? Or force to take command of the Enterprise in an emergency situation? Never. One day Sulu just ended up captain of the Excelsior for no apparent reason. It just happened.”

Well, there were at least 15 years, give or take, in-universe between the last episode we saw of Trek and Sulu commanding the Excelsior. A hell of a lot could have happened. It was actually somewhat unlikely that the rest of them were still together aboard the Enterprise, doing the exact same jobs, decades after the 5 year mission had ended.

Heck, maybe the last scene of Trek 09 was 3 years later (even trhough the other time jumps were indicated with titles) instead of hours or days (or to be generous…. weeks or months) — Kirk had acted as first officer, maybe done a stint on another starship and relieved Pike when necessary and they all caught up… and now Kirk was officially Captain and then Spock came aboard. And a bunch of shit had transpire din the interim. I don’t think anything on screen specifically rules that out. But it seems pretty unlikely.

77. Sebastian S. - June 28, 2012

# 15.

That’s exactly my thought as well, Harry Ballz.
Harve Bennett also proposed a similar reason for Kirk failing to commit to any one woman. It was to be a storyline in Bennett’s ST-movie-that-never-was Academy film (that would’ve debuted in time for the 25th anniversary if they hadn’t made STVI. Kirk fell in love with ‘the one’ at the academy; she’s killed in a mission. The bookends of the movie would’ve had adult Kirk and Spock visiting starfleet academy with Kirk visiting her grave site. I rather liked Bennett’s outline and kind of wish it saw the light of day somehow. Bennett left the franchise after STV when Paramount reneged on their agreement to make his Academy movie afterward.

But thankfully, ST09 gave us a wonderful portrait of Kirk’s life at the academy that was not too dissimilar to what Bennett had in mind as well…

78. Jack - June 28, 2012

“Chris Pine is enthusiastic and positive, but clearly this has not affected, in any way, the mindset of many posting here. So sad, so tiring.”

Keachick. It’s not about Pine as an actor. It’s not an attack on Pine or even the movie as a whole.

And, to be frank, the constant ‘I love Chris Pine’ gets a little tiring too. I get that you’re having fun with it and being a bit goofy. Feel free to keep doing it, I ain’t going to tell you to stop. I’ve made shirtless Pine jokes. But I wonder if some guy was constantly, day after day, going on about how hot Zoe Saldana (or Alice Eve or whomever) was (and I’m sure somebody will now say ‘no guy would ever say that’) and how she should take her uniform off again, well, it might come across as at least a little creepy. If we’re going to start telling people what they should and shouldn’t be saying, well, then that would, respectfully, be my request.

79. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

#70.

As I said, Sulu did nothing to earn command of a starship. It doesn’t matter how long he served under Kirk. It didn’t mean he was meant to command a ship. He never once proved himself as a commander. Did he put himself at risk for his ship and crew? Did he have to save a planet? Nope! It might have taken years for Sulu to get command of a ship, but it doesn’t mean he deserved it. NuKirk, on the other hand, proved himself in a short period of time. Length of service alone doesn’t necessarily result in getting your own ship.

#72.

Look, aren’t you always complaining about people complaining about inconsistencies in Trek canon? I find it interesting how all of a sudden you hold Bob and Alex to a higher standard and shrug off past plot holes written by other writers. That isn’t fair to them. Especially when the bigger challenge was writing a movie that had to create a new timeline, respect the old canon, and at the same time, reboot and re-energize the entire franchise.

Plus there isn’t the luxury of time in a two hour movie. They wanted to show our hero become captain in the same movie, much like how “Batman Begins” showed Bruce Wayne becoming Batman in the same flick, or how James Bond got his license to kill in the first ten minutes of “Casino Royale”. They didn’t want to go the “Star Wars” prequel route, where George Lucas took three movies to show us how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader.

80. Jack - June 28, 2012

“no doubt we will see what eventuates from that dubious decision on the part of some in Starfleet, in the sequel.”

Darn. I didn’t catch this the first time. It’s a good point.

81. Vultan - June 28, 2012

I think the criticism in this case should be leveled more towards Abrams rather than the writers, the main culprit being his warp-speed pace that wouldn’t allow for a more fleshed out ending (not to mention the wonderful birthday hologram scene).

But anyway… one thing I hope for the sequel is since they’ve had this extra time to work on it is to let the story breathe a little more. You don’t have to go blazing fast ALL the time.

82. Jack - June 28, 2012

“Look, aren’t you always complaining about people complaining about inconsistencies in Trek canon? I find it interesting how all of a sudden you hold Bob and Alex to a higher standard and shrug off past plot holes written by other writers. That isn’t fair to them. ”

What does that have to do with anything? This is about internal logic. This isn’t about “Kirk has to serve on the Farragut because that’s the way it was before” canon nitpicking. Like I said, I’m more just curious about it. And I wonder whether they ever went “hmmm, this is a ballsy, reckless decision by Starfleet, will it come back to bite them in the ass” while they were writing it?

If this next film had lousy fx, would we say it’s not fair to Bad Robot to complain about it because Trek V had lousy fx?

But, yeah, if it (Kirk really not being ready for this, or having a slightly-cliched crisis of confidence and thinking he’s not ready) makes the next movie richer, without it being a “and then this is what happened right after they left spacedock” sequel, I’m fine with that.

And, yeah, not buying the Sulu stuff. Just because we didn’t see it, well, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And yeah, maybe — hopefully — Kirk had a bunch of academy achievements/adventures in those three years at the academy that helped make the decision make a bit more sense…

And, yeah, there’s not the luxury of time in a two hour movie — but they had no trouble skipping past three years in the academy — not everything has to be onscreen, or explained to death… :)

83. Phil - June 28, 2012

The reason the fast track promotion keeps coming up as a topic of conversation is because someone (usually Kurtzman) keeps bringing up that the next movie it going to pick up where the last one left off. I get it that Kirk needed to become captain, and I could accept that enough time passed from the death of Nero to Kirk becoming captain to allow for some level of experience to be obtained. Instead of moving the next movie past that, it’s looking like we are going to get to look at the fallout from the quickie promotion in some agonizing detail. In my opinion, recycling Khan, and devoting at least a portion of the next movie to focusing on the weakest part of the last one is fraught with peril and potentially very bad mistakes.

84. Bob Tompkins - June 28, 2012

Kirk’s jump from the Academy to Captain still takes me out of any sense of faux reality… It was the second worst plot hole in Star Trek 09, the first being Spock Prime would never ever ever have allowed the Jellyfish and the Red Matter fall into Nero’s hands. Ever.
It needed exposition as to exactly how that happened. Just a throwaway line by Nero “Activate the damping field!” and a quick shot of the Jellyfish tumbling with lights out would have kept me in the moment.
Spock does not have such lapses.
And please don’t use the excuse of the writer’s strike. That should have been addressed in the first draft that dealt with such a scene. The promotion was just inexcusable, an intentional quick fix shortcut to set up the sequel.
Those were both prime examples of lazy storytelling, something I hope they can avoid this rime.

85. Tom - June 28, 2012

After reading these interviews I am quite surprised Bob Orci did not lobby to rewrite the Shatner scene for the sequel. It really seems if rewritten slightly it could work real well into this growing into command theme.Could be a real poignant moment

Here is an excerpt from the scene

KIRK/SHATNER (V.O.)
I look around at the new cadets now and
can’t help thinking… has it really been
so long? Wasn’t it only yesterday we
stepped onto the Enterprise as boys?
That I had to prove to the crew I
deserved command… and their respect?

86. Enterprisingguy - June 28, 2012

@60-K-7

Thanks for the unsolicited pompous advice. I especially enjoyed the extra large portion of self important condescention!

I’m no newbie to this site. I’ve been here ever since we were lamenting the fact that we had to wait another 18 months for the last movie to come out due to it being pushed back. Don’t assume that just because someone doesn’t post every other comment, like some here do, that they are fresh off the farm.

If it bugs you about the absurd promotion being debated then that’s too bad for you. Its evident by the many comments here that others do wish to discuss it. There have been many other insightful and valid viewpoints on the subject that I’ve enjoyed reading besides the vocal few that seem to know all the answers!

87. Red Shirt Diaries - June 28, 2012

M. Hall: “Um, no. Fact is, there was a mention made of Sulu being awarded the captaincy of the Excelsior in THE WRATH OF KHAN during the docking sequence, but it was cut for time”

Then it is not canon, period. And it is telling to me that it did not wind up in the Extended Edition either — so even with a second chance of becoming canon, it did not make the cut. I mean, if the scene was supposedly “cut for time” like, you claim, where is it in the Extended Edition? Sorry, no promotion there for Sulu in Trek canon.

So RD-Ryan is 100% correct — as far as canon goes, Sulu makes an extremely unusual jump of several ranks very quickly.

88. Red Shirt Diaries - June 28, 2012

#76: “It was actually somewhat unlikely that the rest of them were still together aboard the Enterprise, doing the exact same jobs, decades after the 5 year mission had ended.”

Yet, there they were, at their usual posts still.

89. Vultan - June 28, 2012

I’m glad at least one of them finally got their own ship. But exactly how much time had passed between FF and TUC? Apparently, Sulu made time to have a family along with angling for that big promotion. An enterprising old man, he was. (rimshot)

90. Vultan - June 28, 2012

I just remembered: I happened to be watching Voyage Home the other night and noticed Sulu saying he was hoping they got Excelsior (“Why would you want that bucket of bolts?!”).

So, this was probably a bit of foreshadowing on the part of the creative team. I believe it had been discussed among them going all the way back to TWOK.

91. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

#87.

“So RD-Ryan is 100% correct — as far as canon goes, Sulu makes an extremely unusual jump of several ranks very quickly.”

Thanks, Red Shirt Diaries, I really appreciate it! :-)

#89, 90.

Vultan,

Apparently George Takei demanded that Sulu be given command of the Excelsior. William Shatner apparently warned him against it as he’d get less screen time then he would if Sulu remained on the Enterprise. Shatner ended up being right, as Sulu went long stretches in TUC without being seen. I guess Takei thought he could outshine Shatner as captain. ;-)

92. Shilliam Watner (Click for Trek Ships Poster) - June 28, 2012

Kirk’s quick promotion is simply one of the unbelievable things in ST09 that you must overlook to enjoy the movie. As I’ve said many times here, every Trek movie has had serious flaws, and you have to shrug and let them pass if you want to enjoy the experience.

When I watched TWOK, I couldn’t believe the crew of the Reliant was incompetent enough to mistake one planet for another, and not even notice there was a planet missing. Surely the ship’s computers would at least have noticed. Not to mention the fact that a planet with a breathable atmosphere would have to have some life on it, and not simply “pre-animate matter caught in the matrix.” Ceti Alpha Whatever should not even have been a candidate for the Genesis device. There should have been no reason for them to land there. Except they needed to get them there so Khan could steal their ship and blow Kirk to bits.

I could go on, but my point is that every movie has something stupidly wrong with it, and often multiple times. I don’t think ST09 is any more flawed than its predecessors. To me, the things that were good about Star Trek 09 outweighed the bad things, so the film was a success to me.

But I have no problem with anybody arguing the point. You won’t get me embroiled, however, because I don’t have a “pro” or “con” view about the issue. It’s just one of the warts that 99% of all science fiction movies has, and I don’t know why anybody would expect this particular Star Trek to be any different.

xoxoxo

The Wat

93. Vultan - June 28, 2012

#91

Well, reduced screen time notwithstanding, I thought it was a great redemption of sorts for the Excelsior. Before it had been a joke, a newfangled lemon (sort of). But then it ends up saving the day along with the E. And in a fantastic battle scene no less.

But you know, I think they missed an opportunity for a good laugh in Voyage Home. I think this every time I watch the movie: just as the whale probe moves past spacedock, they should’ve had Excelsior heading out to test its glorious engines once again—only to come to a sputtering stop. CUT TO: the captain breaking his fancy baton over his knee.

“Damn it! Not again!” :D

94. Red Dead Ryan - June 28, 2012

Also, I find it hilarious how some people complain about the supposed absurdity of Red Matter and say how unrealistic it is while at the same time conveniently ignoring the fact that the Genesis Device is no more realistic.

Both are plot devices, both are theoretical, and neither are real.

95. NCM - June 28, 2012

I’m thrilled that we’ll get to see these guys (and gals?) in transition, moving toward becoming the characters we know and love. This approach gives the writers more room, too, to play around with character development and story archs.

I was disappointed in Prometheus, but everything I’m hearing now about Trek 2013 makes me hopeful and I’m also hopeful that “People Like Us” will boost faith in Trek writers.

96. Sebastian S. - June 28, 2012

# 94 RDR~

I find both red matter and the ‘genesis’ device to be ridiculous; as is warp drive, transporters, safely traversing black holes and Jedi light sabers for that matter.

Doesn’t mean I won’t suspend my disbelief and refuse to be entertained by them every now and then.

Star Trek is entertainment, not a physics lecture….

;-)

97. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 28, 2012

#78 – “Keachick. It’s not about Pine as an actor. It’s not an attack on Pine or even the movie as a whole.”

Jack, what is biting you? I did not say that it was about Pine, the actor or the movie as a whole. This was my first post to this thread and I noted that Chris Pine was positive and enthusiastic, which is a far cry from what is getting posted here. This was an objective statement and has nothing to do with my subjective feelings for the actor or the character he plays.

And it is true – Kirk’s quick promotion in this alternate universe is now CANON. All the bitching and complaining ain’t gonna change anything. What’s done is done and moaning about this and other things about the first Star Trek movie that people dislike after more than THREE bloody years is just plain daft. Then again people still bitch about the prime Kirk’s manner of death 18 years later….

Get over it, everyone…reconcile.

Jack – Please – don’t tell me to stop when that is what you seem to need me to do – stop. If you find my continuous expression of affection towards Chris Pine creepy, then maybe others do as well. All I hope is that, if Chris Pine is aware of what I have been writing, that he is not creeped out also.
What to do…

98. K-7 - June 28, 2012

“And it is true – Kirk’s quick promotion in this alternate universe is now CANON. All the bitching and complaining ain’t gonna change anything. What’s done is done and moaning about this and other things about the first Star Trek movie that people dislike after more than THREE bloody years is just plain daft….Get over it, everyone…reconcile.”

Exactly, Ms Keachick. And that includes the angry newbie, Enterprisyguy or whatever he calls himself.

99. John Rambo - June 29, 2012

Star Trek (2009) is the best Star Trek Movie ever!

100. Jemini - June 29, 2012

Kirk’s promotion was no more rushed and unrealistic than the rest of the crew promotions and the K/S friendship itself that was, frankly, the most forced relationship in the movie IMO. It seemed like they tolerated each other only because Spock Prime told them “hey you are friends in this other life and you must be friends in this one too”. Too easy.
But I still don’t buy it. It’s not realistic to me that they literally went from despising each other to “OMG lets be friends nao” in one minute. Spock tried to kill the guy and Kirk humiliated him in front of the crew. I can understand them putting their mutual dislike aside for the sake of our planet and the crew, I can see them developing a mutual respect but friendship? Still too soon and it wasn’t developed.
Basically, we have to accept these things because they were a crew in TOS and they were friends in TOS so it seems like they automatically have to be like that even though this essentially is another life from the start. A realistic ending would have them promoting as captain someonelse or even give the chance to Spock as he had essentially saved earth almost dying by doing so.
Kirk was indeed too young and unexperienced (or no more experienced than the others) it really was more a matter of lucky and fortunate “coincidences” (Spock Prime, him casually hearing about Uhura’s discovery) but honestly what bugged me the most wasn’t him becoming the captain but the fact that no one but him seemed to get credit for saving earth when really Spock and the others were fundamental too and it’s unfair that the ending was an applaud for Kirk ONLY.

101. Enterprisingguy - June 29, 2012

@K-7….

It appears you either can’t read or can’t comprehend. I’m no “newbie”. It’s far more likely I’ve been here longer than you. So quit with the attitude. Your supposed “vast experience” here doesn’t mean squat. Everyone’s opinions are welcome here. It doesn’t give you the right to bully someone because you perceive them as having been here less time than you.

The whole super promotion gimmick stunk. Many people feel that way. Some don’t. Live with it.

102. michael - June 29, 2012

If this movie is half as good as they’re saying then I’ll be happy. The previous movie was imo the best way they could come up to revive the franchise and I’m anxious to see what the writers, director and the production team holds for the next one.

103. SoonerDave - June 29, 2012

@94 Well said.

Both “Red Matter” and the “Genesis Torpedo” are *perfect* Trek story devices. To me, it demonstrates that the respective writers who came up with them “got” Trek enough to understand how to make that plot device work. They didn’t explain it away. They didn’t wrap it in a bunch of pointless TNG treknobabble. It existed, it did something interesting and important, and helped tell a bigger story. To try and put finer resolution on it than that is absurdity. Ultimately, the writers had faith in their underlying concepts.

The classic Trek episodes had precisely the same devices. No one cared how the “Guardian” in “City on the Edge of Forever” worked its time-travel magic. It just worked. And it helped tell one of the better dramatic stories in all of science fiction TV, let alone just Trek. No one cared how the Doomsday Machine’s guts worked to blow up planets and starships. It just did, and retold the story of Ahab in a 23rd century setting.

If you spend so much time dissecting how the devices can’t possibly be real, its hard for me to see how you can have much fun with Trek, because its all science fiction, escapist entertainment. But to each his or her own, I suppose.

104. VZX - June 29, 2012

#96: Very true, there are some things that are part of the fictional universe that follow within their fictional laws of physics. Traversing black holes, warp drives, etc. I’m totally cool with that. What I don’t like is when movies get very basic physics fact wrong because of no good reason.

I’m not cool with “supernovas threaten entire galaxy.” While its no more absurd than red matter, it’s just way too much for me to swallow. Then again, movies do this crap all the time. Things like when a guy gets shot the bullet pushes him back several feet, while the shooter doesn’t move violates all kinds of laws of momentum. But, ehh, it’s just a movie, right?

105. Sebastian S. - June 29, 2012

# 104. VZX

I tend to watch the ST movies much in the same way I have to watch the Star Wars movies; with my science geek cap off. Otherwise, I’ll just nitpick myself right out of a good time. The last ST movie that attempted any kind of scientific realism was ST-TMP (and even it’s ‘wormhole’ was poorly used). And ST-TMP was not exactly a critical darling, either….

As for Kirk’s quick promotion in ST09?
All I can say is that battlefield promotions used to happen all the time. Naval history is littered with them. Horatio Nelson was only 20 years old when he received his first command. So it’s not without precedent; those who insist otherwise need to read more history….

In ST09 Kirk saved the planet Earth by not playing it safe (as typical Starfleet behavior would’ve dictated). He was (in the movie, at least) a born leader. Some people have it, others don’t. Starfleet command wisely recognized that, and I’m sure a grateful Capt. Pike’s word might’ve gone a long way towards influencing that decision as well.

That’s all I’ve got to say on the Kirk promotion thing. It’s ridiculous that 3 years later everyone’s still going so nuts over it. It’s not without historical precedent, so I really see no problem with it. Kirk literally saved not only Earth, but the very CORE of the Federation (and Starfleet). I could very easily see him getting such a rapid promotion….

106. MJ - June 29, 2012

Sheesh, I take one day off from posting, and instigated by a newbie, Phil and Jack, supported a couple of their supporting cronies who always bitch about the Kirk promotion, are at it again, with the same tired and belabored arguments. I thought we had finally closes this case several weeks back? This is a real groaner to have to see this topic brought up again.

Well whatever, so in response to the four or so of you holdouts here and your newbie recruit — “The Unfab Five” — here it goes again for the valid reasoning for the promotion (note: I have cut and pasted some of this from others’ past posts to create this full line of reasoning – my thanks to those people!):

1. Kirk’s actions saved 20 trillion people (I believe a Star Trek novel estimated that being the combined population of all Federation worlds)….TWENTY TRILLION FREAKING PEOPLE saved by the actions of James Kirk. Enough said on this point. This is non-debatable, and would easily be considered by any objective person as the single most important heroic act (in terms of saving lives) in the history of mankind up to that point in time. THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED!

2. Obviously Spock Prime briefed Federation/Starfleet leadership on how important it would be for Kirk to succeed the injured Pike as Captain of the Enterprise. That seems like a no-brainier for me, and solves this lingering question once and for all. Kirk saves the lives of the entire Federation worlds, then Spock recommends to the leadership group (without giving exact details of future history away) how Kirk needs to be Pike’s replacement based on how important Kirk and that crew will be to future events in the Federation, etc.

3. Reinforcing #2, at the end of the movie, Spock Prime is standing alone in the balcony of the chamber where Kirk has just been promoted — this rather directly infers that he orchestrated the promotion; i.e. he is singularly looking down at the ceremony, and then says, “thrusters on full”, which is his memory of Kirk taking command. SPOCK ORCHESTRATED THE PROMOTION !!!

4. Starfleet, now knowing about the importance of Kirk, and the fact he had proven his abilities to lead when he saved Earth and destroyed Nero and the Narada coupled with the fact that they were now badly shorthanded after losing a fleet of ships at Vulcan, made an exception and made Kirk captain of the Enterprise. So Kirk got command both on merit and the fact that Starfleet couldn’t afford to be picky and simply ignore a guy on the fact that he was “too young”.

5. Remember that the military paradigm of promotion timelines in the rapidly expanding Federation is significantly accelerated versus today’s military. Pike specifically says that a good officer out of the academy “can have your own ship in 8 years.” That is about 1/3 of the time that it would typically take it today’s Navy. So in this future environment, the sudden promotions would not seem nearly as severe as today.

6. Say today, there was a threat in which the entire world was about to be destroyed, and England and Japan were already completely taken off the map, but through some improbable actions, one military Ensign, comes up with and implements an audacious and daring plan that defeats the threat and saves every citizen on Earth, then promotions to command for that person would all off a sudden be no big deal for him and his small group who basically SAVED ALL OF HUMANITY. Standard protocols would be thrown out the window for that special situation, and you know what, nobody except some Pentagon paper-pushers would be bitching about it.

So in summary, you are the head of the Federation, this wunderkid academy grad who’s father is a Starfleet legend just saves every Federation world, some twenty trillion people, and the Federation Vulcan Ambassador from the future that might have been urges you to let Kirk keep command of the Enteprise and keep this crew intact, because that ship and crew was vital to Federation history. And then you have Pike requesting the same promotion. And then in this post-Nero version of the Federation, if you are good, it’s only 8 years to get to be a Captain anyway. What is a bean counter Fed president to do under such circumstances? I think it is pretty obvious — you give Kirk the Big E and damn what the paper-pushing admirals in Starfleet HQ think!

I don’t think anything above will change the minds of The Unfab Five here, but for others reading this with more open minds, if the above arguments are not compelling enough for you, then I would suggest that the word “compelling” should fall into embarrassment, ridicule and disuse, and voluntarily remove itself from the English language. :-)

107. MJ - June 29, 2012

@105. Please add Sebastian’s comment here as reason #7 to my long post above:

7. “Battlefield promotions used to happen all the time. Naval history is littered with them. Horatio Nelson was only 20 years old when he received his first command. So it’s not without precedent; those who insist otherwise need to read more history….”

Sebastian, excellent point. I thought I had covered them all, but this is a great one to also be considered. THANKS

108. Red Dead Ryan - June 29, 2012

MJ,

I believe that the “Unfab Five” can’t deal with the facts at hand. The truth seems to cause a lot of problems for some people, unfortunately. They prefer to delude themselves into NOT believing the facts. It is rather quite pitiful.

With that said, let me quote a classic Jack Nicholson quote from “A Few Good Men”, directed towards the non-believers:

“You can’t handle the truth!”

109. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 29, 2012

“Jack – Please – don’t tell me to stop…” re my post at #97 I meant to write – …don’t tell me NOT to stop…

My brain thinks one word while my fingers type the next word…

110. Phil - June 29, 2012

@106-108… Looking through this thread, it seems that there are a few more then five posts where folks are uncomfortable with what seems like a quickie promotion. If anything, you guys seem to be the Terrific Twins, issuing decrees on what you think happened, and labeling your opinions as truth. You’re entitled, and while I don’t think you would concede the point, it’s just as easy for people to believe that more time elapsed from the destruction of the Narada to Kirks promotion. Why, you ask?
Enterprise was damaged escaping the Red Matter black hole. Repairs take time.
Kirks cadet class needed to come back and finish school, that takes time.
Pike was injured, needed treatment.
Future Spock had found a suitable planet to establish New Vulcan.

This doesn’t sound that unreasonable to me, gents…..

111. Sebastian S. - June 29, 2012

For myself?
I don’t take anyone’s ‘side'; this is an open forum (subject to moderation, of course). No one’s word is the final one, and no one’s opinion is the only way. We can disagree, and we can (as I do) list our reasons why we think ours is the correct one. But no one opinion of ST is the ‘right’ one; there will probably be (down the road) as many interpretations of ST as there are currently for the works of William Shakespeare or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (there are currently 3 separate mainstream versions of Sherlock Holmes both on TV/video and in development as I write this)….

But what gets me on this board is the nastiness and the name-calling schoolyard nonsense. This is all about STAR TREK folks, not the fate of the free world. I realize people have passionate opinions on the franchise (as do I) but we would all do better to just ‘dial it down’ a bit, you know? These posts should be for fun, insight and discussion, not ideological conversion or berating someone over their opinion of a TV show/movie franchise….

Just my two cents. ;-)

112. Vultan - June 29, 2012

#110

Good points, Phil.
Sounds reasonable. I’ll go with that.

They probably could’ve made it a bit clearer. Perhaps a series of dissolves or a montage to suggest a longer passage of time, but it’s no biggie.

113. MJ - June 29, 2012

@111. Sebastain, you are a bit too sensitive. RDR, Jack, Phil and I have been bantering like this for years. I can see how if you take what we say, hook, line and sinker, you might think we are a nasty lot, but we have thick skins and are mainly having fun here. Don’t take it all so literally, dude. :-)

114. Phil - June 29, 2012

@106-108. Well, seeing how you all accused everyone not in total agreement with you as being in denial….

1. Conjecture. Kirk hasn’t saved trillions, you could argue he failed to save Vulcan by not disabling the drilling rig, and it was Spock piloting the Jellyfish that destroyed the drilling platform attacking earth and the Narada.

2. Inconsistant. Why would Spock Prime reveal this about Kirk, but not potential details that could prove to save lives? Also, by now Spock Prime would have knowledge of the conversation that occured on this bridge, where the new crew had concluded that events in their time may be unfolding differently then Nero’s.

3. Spock Prime may have just as easily been reminiscing about his youth, watching his younger counterparts beginning their journey as his is ending.

4. More conjecture. Even if Starfleet was stretched thin, it’s not stretched that thin. Any function you see on a starship is going to have a training facility somewhere, or command schools, or any other school. Strategically, it’s bad business to locate these all at one location. The movie establishes there are other ships out there, all with commanders with more experience.

5. Perhaps, but Pike does not differentiate between the types of vessels. To illustrate the parallel, just because two men are both captains in the Navy does not mean the man who is Captain of a sub tender is qualified to command an aircraft carrier.

6. Anything is plausible, I suppose….

7. Well, battlefield commissions don’t happen much anymore, but when they did the person was bumped a rank and given a medal. Privates didn’t become Lt’s, and Lt’s didn’t become Admirals.

Actually, assuming all your points are 100% factual, I could understand why Starfleet would send these guys out on the 5 year mission at this point – no one in their right mind would send a ship full of raw rookies into a sensitive or combat situation, so you point them to deep space, tell them to come back in five years, knowing that there was little they could do deep outside of Federation space to foul things up. In short, they have become The Expendables. Well played, gentlemen….

115. Phil - June 29, 2012

@111. I’m posting on a public forum, I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, it’s just chatter when I’m supposed to be working….oops, should not have said that. None of us are screenwriters, so there are just fans here…

116. The Quickening - June 29, 2012

#76

Of course it’s reaching. Too much “after and out of film” explanation is necessary for this film to make sense–a sign of poor writing (a comic book to explain Nero’s 25 years of thumb twirling; “the universe repairing itself” to explain Spock’s miraculously appearing in that cave–read deus machina; a time lapse to explain away Kirk’s all too rapid promotion…). As far as I’m concerned, smart writing takes place in the film and script.

117. The Quickening - June 29, 2012

#94.

Except the genesis device comes off as more original (to TREK), more intricate to the plot, story and sub-text of the TWOK (The theme of TWOK deals with LIFE, DEATH and MORTALITY. The genesis device creates LIFE from DEAD planets.); Red matter comes off as a borrowed, rethreaded plot gimmick.

They ‘borrowed” that slug creature put into Pike from the TWOK, too.

118. MJ - June 29, 2012

@117

Not so fast. Remember, the plot devices which caused the Genesis Planet to self destruct was David Marcus’s use of an exotic substance called Protomatter. So right there in Trek II-Trek III, we have a plot device that know one can explain, so that invent a new kind of exotic matter. Just like Red Matter was invented for Trek 2009. Red Matter is the modern Trek equivalent of Protomatter. From Memory Alpha?

“Protomatter was a highly dangerous, unstable form of matter.
Its hazardous properties led to its denunciation by most 23rd century scientists, but this did not stop David Marcus from secretly using it while trying to solve certain fundamental problems inherent in the Project Genesis matrix. By doing so, he inadvertently doomed the project to failure as it caused the planet formed by the matrix to inherit the unstable properties of the protomatter. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)”

119. Vultan - June 29, 2012

Red matter, protomatter—what’s it matter?

But #117 does have a point with the borrowing that went on in the last one, particularly the torture creature, Spock quoting Holmes, McCoy calling him a hobgoblin, Kirk making out with the green girl, etc., etc.

That last one was stepping well into Galaxy Quest parody territory, in my opinion. Took me out of the story for a moment.

But Trek ’09 hasn’t been the only one to commit this particular sin. Rise of the Planet of the Apes—a good movie by the way—reused the tired “damn dirty ape” quote right at a important, climactic point in the story, and some people in my audience laughed… and not in a good kind of way.

Less of that stuff, please.

120. Jack - June 29, 2012

106. “Spock recommends to the leadership group (without giving exact details of future history away) how Kirk needs to be Pike’s replacement based on how important Kirk and that crew will be to future events in the Federation, etc.”

Yep, but it’s not the same Kirk. He’s ten years younger and has had completely different life experiences. This (Spock must have told them!) rationalization gets tossed around here a lot. Even if they believed him,well, so what?

If some guy from the future came back from a timeline where I hadn’t decided against going to law school and where I had, instead, become a very famous Supreme Court justice… well, would the powers that be listen to him and say, “Oh, he’s a big deal in the future? Okay, well, we’ll throw him in law school and then appoint him to the supreme court before he graduates.”

121. MJ - June 29, 2012

@114 @120

Phil, Jack,

Of course you can nitpick apart each of these points one by one, but THE TOTALITY OF TAKING ALL OF THESE POINTS TOGETHER more than provides the case for the promotion.

The sum is greater than the parts!

122. Azrael - June 29, 2012

Concerning Red Matter, has everyone forgotten that Romulan ships are powered by artificially created micro-singularities? In other words every Romulan ship has a small black hole inside it, the process of creating these must share some similarities with the process of creating Red Matter, just IMO.

123. Azrael - June 29, 2012

Concerning Kirk’s promotion and the possibility of Spock Prime having a hand in it. I believe a quote from Spock Prime says it all. “Command of a Starship is your first, best destiny, anything else is a waste of material.”

124. Twilight Trek - June 29, 2012

I think it would be smart if “cupcake” died in this movie. Now only do we have some back story (and some attachment) to a “red shirt” character but Kirk has a background with him as well. It’d be a smart way to kill off a “red shirt” but do so in a way that would emotionally effect Kirk and maybe the audience as well. A good tool for character growth. Sorry “cupcake.”

125. Azrael - June 29, 2012

And finally, concerning the concept of the timeline attempting to fix itself. This isn’t new either, its been used in time travel stories for several decades, DC Comics Zero Hour, Marvel’s Avengers Forever, Stargate SG-1, and many more places have all posited the idea of history having a kind of inertia that minimizes changes to the timeline, all this well before ST 2009 was even a twinkle in JJ’s eye.

126. Red Dead Ryan - June 29, 2012

#’s122, 123, and 125.

Good points!

127. Keachick - June 29, 2012

“it’s just as easy for people to believe that more time elapsed from the destruction of the Narada to Kirks promotion. Why, you ask?
Enterprise was damaged escaping the Red Matter black hole. Repairs take time.
Kirks cadet class needed to come back and finish school, that takes time.
Pike was injured, needed treatment.
Future Spock had found a suitable planet to establish New Vulcan.”

That is what I think happened. Hopefully the sequel will establish this as a matter of fact, because it was not clearly spelled out in the last film. However, I always figured that was the case.

There were two areas where just a little more exposition was necessary –

– How much time went by between the time Dr McCoy sedated Kirk and when he awoke to hear Chekov’s announcement

– How much time had elapsed between the crippled Enterprise’s return to Earth and the promotion ceremony.

Frankly, what Nero was doing in those 25 years is of no importance and does not further the main story along. What was IMPORTANT was that he was there in time to capture Spock and Jellyfish with the red matter.

As for Kirk meet prime Spock in the cave – happy coincidence and they can sometimes happen more often than is realised. Two kiwis who have not seen or heard of each other in 20 years end up on a seat next to each other on a train going to Glasgow – for real! – population 70+ million people. Frankly I actually think there was more chance of Kirk running into Spock on the ice planet than those two Kiwis meeting as they did.

Anyway, the movie is three years old, is canon and what is done is done. Most of what people consider plot holes are NOT plot holes at all.

Get over it…Reconcile!

128. Red Shirt Diaries - June 29, 2012

The collective amount of evidence now supporting Kirk’s promotion would be equivalent in the legal world to the “overwhelming collection of circumstantial evidence,” that would allow for a guilty verdict in a criminal case, where no physical evidence is present.

So literally, “CASE CLOSED” here now folks. The circumstantial evidence is simply overwhelming.

129. The Quickening - June 29, 2012

#118.

Both the genesis device and red matter are macguffins, and rather silly. I’d even admit, the genesis device is far more so, but that wasn’t my point. I made no mention of the ridiculous science of the genesis device. My point was that it is stronger, more creative, and better used within the fabric of the plot and story in TWOK, and has infinitely more thematic resonance than the use of red matter in ST ’09–which I say again is nothing more than a shallow plot device, used rather poorly in the film, and copied as a device from TWOK.

130. Sebastian S. - June 29, 2012

# 113 MJ~

Honestly? it doesn’t matter what you think of me on this site, but I’m just thinking of others, that’s all. No one deserves to be insulted or berated for posting their opinion….

We’re all ST fans. We should be celebrating our diversity and not clubbing each other over the head for it….. ;-)

131. Sebastian S. - June 29, 2012

# 127 Keachick~

How about how much time elapsed in the turbolift when Spock went from the engineering/hangar deck area to the bridge in about 3 seconds? A new tubolift speed record, I think…. ;-)

Maybe the new turbolifts are warp-driven… ;-D

132. P Technobabble - June 29, 2012

I don’t think there’s any way to DEFINITIVELY say how much time has passed in a film. Films are edited in certain ways, and it is not necessarily spelled out how much time has elapsed. We can imagine whatever we wish, therefore…
IMO of course…

133. MJ - June 29, 2012

@130. I like you, dude. You are good people! And I am flattered that you take my posts as seriously as you do.

134. MJ - June 29, 2012

@129 “My point was that it is stronger, more creative, and better used within the fabric of the plot and story in TWOK, and has infinitely more thematic resonance than the use of red matter in ST ’09–which I say again is nothing more than a shallow plot device, used rather poorly in the film, and copied as a device from TWOK.”

But your Genesis deviice devolves in a similar shallow plot device in Trek III to provide a reason for Spock to age and the Genesis Planet to self implode due to David’s discredited use of Protomatter.

135. Jack - June 30, 2012

Okay, that turbo lift thing was brilliant. It’s not a flub. I don’t really understand how people think it’s a mistake. They know it ‘s a massive bloody ship. But it’s also the 23rd bloody century — and it’s called a turbolift.

136. Hat Rick - June 30, 2012

All I want to know is: Lens flares: How much?

;-)

Just kidding.

Everything sounds great about the sequel and my anticipation is building. The wait becomes less and less bearable by the day. :-)

137. The Quickening - June 30, 2012

#134

Who’s talking about the use of the genesis device in Trek 3? I never mentioned that. Like Trek ’09, I found Trek 3 a rather poor entry in the movie series as well.

138. Sebastian S. - June 30, 2012

#136 HR~

I’m wondering how lens flares will ‘translate’ into 3D, since they’re not a ‘natural’ phenomenon….

My worry is that the desired ‘gritty’ realism achieved with lens flares in 2D will wind up looking really artificial and strange in 3D (especially for a movie that is not shot in 3D, but post-converted; a process I generally avoid, by the way). I’ll probably see it first in 2D (just for purist’s sake).

At any rate, I imagine JJ Abrams might tone down the lens flare anyway (as it’s already become a bit of a cliche at this point). Not that I didn’t appreciate the handheld ambience and immediacy it added to ST09 but IMO it was overdone juuuuust a bit…. ;-)

139. Sebastian S. - June 30, 2012

# 137 TQ~

I believe it was a comparison between the relative implausibility of the ‘protomatter’ in the Genesis device vs the ‘red matter’ of the black hole device in ST09. Not a comparison of either movie’s quality.

The point of that discussion (as I understood it) was that ST09 was not the first ST movie to use a silly pseudo-science plot device to spackle over a serious plot hole. IMO, as a bit of a science/space geek, ALL of the ST series and movies are guilty of this to some degree, but IMO it can be given a pass as entertainment (just like Star Wars), not a lesson for Physics 101….

140. Hat Rick - June 30, 2012

138, Sebastian,

JJ is a master of making the audience a part of the action. Although it is often overlooked, “Cloverfield” is an important part, I think, of any understanding of Mr. Abrams’ oeuvre and cinematic technique. Any review of that movie will include the cinema verite’ style it embodies.

The use of lens flares is only one way an accomplished director makes the audience understand the action in an exciting, visceral way, through light, camera, and action. I look forward to the vertigo I will feel as I am immersed in the 3D experience that will be — Star Trek 2!

141. Sebastian S. - June 30, 2012

# 140

I liked the lens flare effect, too. “Blade Runner” and “Close Encounters of the 3K” are two favorite movies of mine (and both used TONS of lens flare; especially in their action scenes). But like any cinematic tool, it can be overdone…

I’m all for cinema verite (I’m also a fan of the movies of Francois Truffaut and Jean-Luc Godard), but my point is that lens flare is an artificial artifact of the camera that doesn’t happen in the real world; your eyes can’t see it the way a camera can. So, if the point of 3D is to immerse a viewer in ‘realism’, how will lens flare translate as a ‘natural looking’ 3D effect? Especially in the amount and scale that JJ Abrams poured into ST09?

What worked so well (and realistically) in 2D might look very silly and artificial in 3D. Filmmakers have to try to adapt their styles when working in 3D as the requirements of adding a third dimension to a movie presents new challenges previously unknown in 2D filmmaking….

Just my two cents. As one who ‘dabbles’ in photography (and have had some of my works in local amateur shows) I recently bought a new camera with a 3D mode and I still (after a whole year) have yet to use it. Maybe I’m just overthinking it a bit, or maybe I am just a bit intimidated by the new tech (or both!) …. ;-D

142. K-7 - June 30, 2012

Agree completely with the analogy to trial law here concerning Kirk’s promotion — the amount of circumstantial evidence presented with the seven argument here is overwhelming, and warrants a conclusion of Kirk’s promotion being a logical result of events of the movie, and the actions by Starlet, Federation leadership, Spock and Pike, to secure the command of the Enterprise for Kirk.

Agreed — case closed! We’ve put this one to bed now once and for all. Time for a new topic here.

143. Red Shirt Diaries - June 30, 2012

#142. Well said, and consider this: First, Enterprisingguy was the poster who brought this up, and was very vehement about this at first. But then, secondly, over the past couple of days, RD-Ryan, MJ, Sebastian R, K-7, Azrael, Keachick and others have presented the overwhelming case that supports Kirk getting the Enterprise. And thirdly, as this case has built up over the past couple of days, Enterprisingguy has no longer posted???

This is very telling to me — I think an objective person would conclude that Enterprisingguy now sees how the preponderance of evidence does in fact support the promotion. That likely being the situation, one could understand why he would prefer to just disappear here instead of having to deal with going back on his very strong posts arguing against the promotion. For my part, I would welcome Enterprisingguy back to this discussion, but I can certainly understand why he would now like to avoid any further posting here on this topic.

144. Red Dead Ryan - June 30, 2012

#’s 142, 143.

Agreed! On this site, you know when someone (in this case, Enterprisingguy) has lost an argument, they suddenly disappear once the rest of us post the facts that disprove their own argument. Instead of admitting the errors of their ways, they just disappear like a fart in the wind.

Some people just can’t accept the facts.

145. MJ - June 30, 2012

@144. Yep, so much for Phil and Jack’s newbie recruit. LOL That guy sure disappeared quickly once we made the case for the promotion.

Not very enterprising of him to leave Phil and Jack alone to carry on their holy grail-like, never ending, plodding, years-long, quest, crusade, inquisition, to make Kirk a Lieutenant. :-))

CASE CLOSED !!!!!

146. Keachick - June 30, 2012

#145 – “Yep, so much for Phil and Jack’s newbie recruit. LOL”

Is that supposed to be a bit of a joke or something? Well, if it is, it’s not a very nice one. Enterprisingguy simply held an opinion that Phil and Jack shared. Also Enterprisingguy has reiterated that he is not a newbie – he simply has not posted anything in a while here, until now.

There is no need for smart alec comments.

I did not single any one person out. I simply commented that this topic has been discussed many, many times and really it’s time to move on, because Kirk’s quick promotion, whether we think it sound or not, is a done deal within Star Trek canon. All could be explained, or not, in the upcoming sequel.

147. Vultan - June 30, 2012

#146

Well, alternate canon.

And that’s probably the most brilliant thing the new movie did; it separated itself while also connecting itself at the same time. For those who love it, it’s right in line with everything else. For those who don’t, it’s this other thing in another universe they can always disown.

Again, brilliant (marketing).
Now for the sequel… a brilliant story would be great.

148. MJ - June 30, 2012

@146. Then where is Enterprisingguy??? The guy makes all these bold statements about Kirk’s promotion not being valid and then “conveniently disappears” when quite a few people respond to him with valid contrary points??? And now you are left to defend him because he’s bailed. I admire you for defending him, but I am not sure if he is worthy of your defense.

IMHO, if you are going to make multiple very opinionated posts over several days on a topic on these boards, and then disappear, don’t be surprised if the people still posting conclude that you have backed off your position.

I know I am not the nicest person on these boards, but whether my opinion is popular or not, I stick around and interchange with people who have contrary opinions. You’ll never see me disappear when things aren’t going well for a position I’ve taken.

149. Phil - June 30, 2012

@138. If you look intyo a lens flare in 3D, you’ll go blind….

150. Sebastian S. - June 30, 2012

# 149

Phil~

LOL!
Probably true… I once burned out part of a CCD sensor on a camera by keeping it on a bright sun flare too long. It left a nice dark smudge near the center of all of my subsequent shots with that camera. I also had a telescope with a sun filter on it; used it one morning on a bright sunny day (forgetting to warm it up first), and the damn filter literally overheated and cracked. Magnified sunlight poured into my eye, and I was partly blind in that eye for about 10 minutes…

If the new ST movie uses lots of lens flare? I’m just concerned that the up-converted 3D lens flare will look even more gimmicky (as lens flare doesn’t happen naturally anyway). Hope he tones in down, or at least doesn’t have lens flare effects themselves converted to 3D. It’ll go against the realism JJ Abrams tried to achieve with his cinema verite style in the last movie.

151. Harry Ballz - June 30, 2012

149. “Phil “If you look into a lens flare in 3D, you’ll go blind…”

Funny, I thought you’d just get hairy palms!

152. Sebastian S. - July 1, 2012

# 151 HB

Don’t you mean “Harry” palms? ;-D

You always make me chuckle, Harry Ballz….. I bow to your wit. ;-)

153. Antony - July 1, 2012

The new movie sounds amazing so far! I loved the risks and changes the nu team made in the last one and at the same time the sense of familiarity I was feeling while I watching the movie. Good job people!

154. MJ - July 1, 2012

@151. Harry, you are right on schedule, dude! When I saw Phil’s post, I said to myself, “how long before Harry shows up with the obvious masturbation joke?” :-))

Phil, you really set yourself up for that one! LOL

155. Harry Ballz - July 1, 2012

152+154.

Sebastian and MJ

Thanks guys! Now go beat your dick like it owes you money! :>)

156. MJ - July 2, 2012

@155. There you go, Harry, being a jerk-off again!

:-))

157. Harry Ballz - July 2, 2012

MJ, stop trying to “yank my chain”!

Now, go stroke the bishop, or somethin’, will ya??

158. Cenobyte - July 2, 2012

Not to break up the lens flare jokes, but I check in here from time to time and read some of the articles/comments… not sure i’ve seen anyone bring this up, but am I the only one who wonders if Cumberbatch is playing and alt universe Finnegan who’s maybe tied up in some bad sh*t?

159. Sebastian S. - July 2, 2012

# 158 Cenobyte~

Yes, I sincerely believe you are the only one. ;-D

I really, really, really, REALLY doubt Finnegan is the ‘big bad.’
Finnegan didn’t seem to be more than a generic, garden variety bully. Hardly a master villain type who could withstand a Vulcan nerve pinch and give Spock a run for his money in hand to hand combat (see: the spoiler pics on this site).

And I cringe at the thought of an actor of Cumberbatch’s high caliber even attempting to replicate Bruce Mars’ stereotypical, Irish-cop-in-Chicago performance (not to mention Finnegan had bright blonde hair; Cumberbatch’s villain clearly doesn’t).

160. FarStrider - July 2, 2012

@158 What Sebastian S. said. . . plus, in the new timeline, Kirk most likely didn’t even meet Finnegan. New Kirk went to the Academy years later than TOS Kirk and according to TOS Finnegan was a senior when Kirk was a freshman. . .

~FS

161. celticarchie - July 2, 2012

Gee, Kurtzman really talks a lot of BS.

162. Azrael - July 2, 2012

@161. According to what standard of measurement? Cpme pn give us one example of Kurtzman’s BS that isnt based in a movie that hasn’t been released yet or one he didn’t even work on.

I have a feeling your just another no reason hater, but I am trying to give you an opportunity to show you are more than that.

163. Col.Tigh - July 2, 2012

Benedict Cumberbatch – Captain *Lord* Garth???

164. Whalien - July 2, 2012

Oh great….another Trek film with young crew members who don’t know what they are doing yet…great…ugh…

Trek 90210, Part II

And I guess to further “shock” the audience, they’ll blow up or badly maim the NCC-1701…

You read it here.

165. Whalien - July 2, 2012

#169 — Cupcake is Finnegan!!

He’s William “Cupcake” Finnegan, The First!!

166. MJ - July 2, 2012

@164 “And I guess to further “shock” the audience, they’ll blow up or badly maim the NCC-1701…”

You mean like in Star Trek II, III and VII? LOL Like that would be something new.

167. Phil - July 2, 2012

I seem to recall that the Big E took a beating in VI, VIII, IX, X and XI as well….

168. Cenobyte - July 2, 2012

@159. Sebastian S. & 160. FarStrider

Yeah I hear what you’re saying the character is pretty irritating and weak in the original show, and really just a low rent bully type guy… but I guess I’m thinking in an alt timeline he could have ended up on a different path, and I don’t think Kirk would have had to meet Finnegan in the academy for him to still make an appearance a lil later in his life. Anyway I agree it’s highly unlikely but it was floating around in the back of my head for a while, and there were SO many lens flare jokes, I figured I’d break that up a bit ;) lol

169. Azrael - July 2, 2012

Heck in X they tore the whole front off the saucer and blew out the viewscreen, damaging or destroying the ship is nothing new for Star Trek, one of my favorite TNG episodes features the Enterprise being destroyed multiple times, and Captain Frasier ;).

170. Vultan - July 2, 2012

#169

Oh yeah, Captain Frasier! One of my favorites, too.
Wish they had Commander Lilith at this side.

171. Sebastian S. - July 2, 2012

# 170

Bebe Newirth would’ve made an awesome Vulcan. Just keep her in “Lilith” mode… ;-D

I loved her guest appearance as the horny medic who seduced Riker in the TNG episode, “First Contact” (not the later movie of the same name….).

172. Azrael - July 2, 2012

Troll alert. Lets all stop feeding celticarchie and let him get himself banned, which judging by his comment on another thread, won’t take long.

173. MJ - July 2, 2012

Who is celticarchie? Not seeing his posts here?

BTW, the Celtics suck, Archie. Go Lakers!

174. Vultan - July 2, 2012

#171

Ever see the Voyager/Frasier crossover? Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xf6cw7LXXQ&feature=related

175. Red Dead Ryan - July 2, 2012

#161 is celticarchie. Must be from Ireland. Captain Neill is from there as well.

Hmm, could they be related? Perhaps, unless celticarchie is from Boston. :-)

176. MJ - July 2, 2012

@174. I always hoped that one day I would see an entertaining episode of Voyager. Thanks!

@175. Ah, I see. He looks to be a deep thinker, eh? LOL

177. Whalien - July 3, 2012

#166, 167 — I’d only enjoy watching the Enterprise blown up again if the replacement looks like the one in either TOS or TMP…:-)

178. Phil - July 3, 2012

@177. Come on now, look forward, not back…

179. Vultan - July 3, 2012

#177

Yeah, get with the times, man.
Look forward, not back… reboot, remake…

180. Charles Austin Miller - July 3, 2012

Man, I am still so disappointed with the LAME death of James T. Kirk in “Generations”… What I want to see in the new franchise — I mean, as long as we HURLED the elder Spock back into the storyline — why not resurrect elder Kirk, as well?

181. celticarchie - July 3, 2012

162. Azrael – July 2, 2012

By the ‘standard of measurement’ of basic storytelling.

Didn’t you folks even watch ST2009, Kurtzman’s name is on the writing credit.

I’ll tell you what…you tell me why ST2009 was such a wonderful movie, and why we should all be happy that Kurtzman/Orci/Abrams get to make another.

182. Azrael - July 3, 2012

@181. I could, but I don’t feed trolls.

183. Lostrod - July 3, 2012

I think this news has been touched on before, regarding an actor considered for the villain role in the ST sequel.

What’s interesting is it mentions the role he was considered for:

“But Bichir admits the 12-week commitment caused him to miss out on several other opportunities, revealing he lost the chance to play iconic villain Khan in the science fiction film franchise’s latest movie.”

http://www.contactmusic.com/news/demian-bichir-skipped-star-trek-auditions-for-brothers-play_1357414

Regards,

184. Azrael - July 3, 2012

Well, MJ, RDR, RSD, Shilliam, and everyone else who is actually important around here. I will catch you when there is some more news. LLAP

185. Red Dead Ryan - July 3, 2012

#183.

That’s interesting! :-)

#184.

See you soon!

#181.

I’d give you reasons why the movie is great, but that would go beyond your level of comprehension. :-)

186. MJ - July 3, 2012

@185 “I’d give you reasons why the movie is great, but that would go beyond your level of comprehension. :-) ”

Well said!!!

@184. LLAP

187. Keachick - July 4, 2012

Alex Kurtzman has written and/or produced some really good work, including Star Trek. I don’t really get why someone would refer to what he has recently said in interviews as BS.

It seems that his own project, People Like Us, is getting more positive reviews than negative ones and that is in terms of telling a good story that holds together and is directed very well. People are praising the acting finesse of Elizabeth Banks and Chris Pine especially. Not bad for his first outing as director of a feature film!

I do have a bone to pick with Bad Robot… I am a bit addicted to the Fringe TV series, another Kurtzman collaboration. I now have the third season on DVD and love it. I don’t know whether Alex Kurtzman’s input to Fringe is as much or more or less than the other people involved, but he is still part of the overall team that helped put together such a fine television series. No BS.

188. Keachick - July 4, 2012

I have just noted that People Like Us has a distributor, Touchstone Pictures. I am very familiar with that name downunder at the back end of nowhere.

Bob? Alex?

189. Joseph - July 4, 2012

Everyone saying that a slower progression was in order: in my experience, you really can’t do that in the first film of a franchise. And for all intents and purposes that is what this film was being treated as.
Think back to when the script was being pitched initially. Just about everyone was convinced it was going to be a tremendous flop. The fans were grumbling about how they’d never go to see this movie while the critics were talking about how it was probably a bad move and the general public just didn’t care.

Now based on my own experience as a writer I’d have to say that there was no bloody way that Abrams could have gotten a script greenlit if it ended with Kirk anywhere but in the captain’s chair. With success already so questionable (keep in mind that Star Trek movies traditionally have not been the greatest earners compared to some other franchises) I doubt anyone was going to be that receptive to a script that would only work with the assumption that there would be two or three more movies with even larger budgets as a follow up.

Now does that magically make the plot holes caused by the necessity to make it a stand-alone feature go away? No, of course not, but there’s no point crucifying anyone for them when it’s a necessary deceit to get the project off the ground, and in a multi-million dollar blockbuster the fact is that the necessities of busines hold a lot of sway over how the final project turns out. If you really want to see Star Trek that’s devoid of that, we’ve been very fortunate to have several series of fan films come out in recent years where their love of the franchise always comes first. I’d recommend you go there.

190. Red Dead Ryan - July 4, 2012

#189.

Agreed!!!

191. Guest - July 5, 2012

Its common knowledge in the Cumberbatch fandom that he is playing Khan. In an alternate timeline.

192. celticarchie - July 5, 2012

185. Red Dead Ryan – July 3, 2012

Yeah, ya probably right considering the conclusion of that movie is ‘we’re getting sucked in to the blackhole, we must eject the power-source to our engines…that are the only things keeping us from falling into the blackhole…so how are they going do that without a power source?’, yeah I can’t think at that level of stupidity.

193. celticarchie - July 5, 2012

182. Azrael – July 3, 2012

I’m not a troll. I’m a goblin.

194. Phil - July 5, 2012

@189. I count myself among the people who would have liked to have seen a little better accounting for the passage of time from cadet to captain, and considering that the producers saw fit to fast forward the story three years at the beginning of the movie, they could have also done it at the end. However, I’ve also said it is what it is, and Kirk needed to be captain at the end…anyone who is suggesting a different outcome had a seriously misplaced set of priorities for Trek09. The controversy would go away all together, except that whenever Kurtzman gets in front of a camera now-a-days he seems to be implying that Khan 2.0 is going to be a continuation of the crew ‘coming together’ and also implying that the skills young Kirk should have learned moving up the ranks will now be ‘on the job’ training. That does not bode well for the next movie, in my opinion…

195. Trekmark - July 5, 2012

Uh… aren’t these movies taking place in a ‘new’ universe/timeline? That pretty much accounts for any discrepencies in ‘canon’ for me. Like someone said, “it’s a movie.” Man, I thought I was a TREK-geek… but I do want that ENTERPRISE plush! ;-)

196. Trekmark - July 5, 2012

Re: celticarchie #192:
They’re called impulse engines.
I don’t have any idea from the movie how far from Earth the climax of the film took place, but it doesn’t need to have been very far, I would imagine. Who says they couldn’t have gotten back to Earth easily enough or called for some rescue from Starfleet. No? Yes? Maybe?

197. Phil - July 5, 2012

@192. I think the point was to detonate the anti-matter as part of the escape plan. Survive first, then worry about how you are getting home – it’s a reasonable course of action that doesn’t need to be picked apart. Sub light drive is a seperate system, and unaffected by the loss of the Warp drive. The point though, was to escape, so a fake detailed explaination of how it worked is really pointless, anyway….

198. NickJ - July 5, 2012

Cumberbatch kind of resembles Q from TNG. That is a villiam that would open the movies up to all kind of timeline possibilities.

199. Azrael - July 5, 2012

@197, Agreed, also “eject warp core and detonate to escape something” is an established Star Trek tactic used in a number of places so there was nothing whatsoever wrong with using it there.

200. Phil - July 5, 2012

@199. During TNG’s run, tweaking a photon torpedo or adjusting the main deflector dish were great ways to fix just about any problem they happened to stumble upon….

201. Azrael - July 5, 2012

@200. Also true, remember the beam they fired at the Borg cube from their deflector in Best of Both Worlds part 2?

202. TrekTech - July 8, 2012

Lets face it, these writers blew it on several levels. Theres no way in holy Hell this guy wouldve been promoted to Captain. Thats so outside the realm of probability its not reconcilable. As a veteran I was insulted by the premise and attributed it to ignorance or laziness. Its just one of the things we have to swallow to move forward with this JJVerse but truth be known I was dismayed that ’09 made the money it did as it spoke volumes as to what people will pay for these days. The performances were good (for the most part) but the rest was ill conceived, poorly constructed and required such suspension of disbelief as to be…well…unbelievable. Here hoping the next venture is better. BTW, my beef is not nor has it ever been with the NEW universe concept nor the actors. My beef was with bad writing and lazy art design. I liek the stuff that JJ and crew puts out for the most part but I felt ’09 was cotton candy…gets you hyped up on sugar with no substance. Please let this next one be better.

203. Picard's Fish - July 9, 2012

it’s Gary!!!

Gary Mitchell!!

aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/gaaaaaarrrryyyyy-benedict-cumberbatchs-villain-in-star-trek-2-revealed-20120709

204. Picard's Fish - July 9, 2012

could be pure BS of course..

205. al - July 9, 2012

Well latinoreview just dropped the bomb that Carl Erban said cumberbatch witll be playing Gary mitchell as the villian in the sequel

206. StarQuack - July 9, 2012

The problem with the writers approach to these reboot films is that they are approaching them from the perspective of normal drama and character development. This is star trek, not lost. Star Treks characters develop differently and from a different starting point than normal dramatic characters.

First of all they are already somewhat mature when they leave starfleet, which is the PRECISE purpose of BEING IN STARFLEET to begin with. If a cadet is as mature as imposter kirk here is upon leaving the starfleet, he is pretty much not given an assignment aboard a starship like this, let alone the god damned captaincy.

Of course the writers took the easy dramatic way, instead of the star trek dramatic way, which would have been a lot more challenging. And they admitted this themselves. But I still do not understand why it was so important for them to do this to these characters. Why didn’t they just come up with a new concept? A new series? A New universe that has nothing to do with star trek? Oh yea! Cha-Ching!

207. StarQuack - July 9, 2012

195. Trekmark

I really wish you and other’s would stop discouraging dissent with this “just a movie” and “thought I was a geek” crap. Please let us all express ourselves with out back handed condescension designed to discourage expression. Why are you here if it is merely entertainment that inspires nothing? What is there to discuss then? I really do not get you people who come here to discuss how badly you dislike other peoples discussions. It’s weird.

208. Azrael - July 9, 2012

@207. I really wish you and others would stop nitpicking the h-ll out of everything and just leave the rest of us alone so I guess we are equal cause neither of us is getting what we want.

209. JamesTJerk - July 9, 2012

208

The difference is what you want makes no sense. You just want to control the way people express themselves. People like us are asking valid questions and only getting “just a movie” and similar responses. If that’s how you feel, what are you here to even discuss? One can say “it’s just a movie” but what does that inspire discussion of? I don’t get it. This is a discussion board, no?

210. Azrael - July 9, 2012

If you had read even one of my posts you would know that I have never said “its just a movie”, not once, so nothing in your pathetic response to me even makes sense.

211. celticarchie - July 10, 2012

196. Trekmark – July 5, 2012

It’s not about ‘getting home’ it’s about countering the pull from the blackhole.

Kirk says: ‘why aren’t we at warp’. Chekov tells that they are, Kirk calls Scotty who comes up with the plan to eject ‘the core’ (and yet we see multiple cores eject from the ship), once said cores are ejected then there is nothing powering the WARP ENGINES which are the only keeping them from falling into the blackhole…that ship should snap back into the blackhole like a pinged rubber band.

212. celticarchie - July 10, 2012

203. Picard’s Fish – July 9, 2012

Or is it the desperate Paramount hype machine working overtime.

http://www.joblo.com/joblo-article-2012.php?id=screenwriter-roberto-orci-lists-five-characters-who-will-not-be-in-star-trek-2

213. Keachick - July 11, 2012

How is this “imposter” Kirk not, in any way, mature? I am not talking about when we first meet him as an adult in the bar scene, although I think he was just pissed off with the redshirt cadets being a-holes who were too thick to have developed any semblance of humour and who were really up themselves and who didn’t even listen to Uhura whose welfare, honour, whatever other shit they figured they were supposed to defending. Kirk was only foolhardy because once these guys decided to be brutal a-holes, there was no way Kirk would be able to come out in one piece, more or less, which says more about Cupcake and co’s lack of discipline than it does about Kirk, a civilian resident!

Kirk’s so called immaturity has been constantly highlighted and yet I don’t see his actions, once aboard the Enterprise, as being childish – in fact, anything but. Please explain…

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