Into Darkness Arrives – Poll & Open Thread | TrekMovie.com
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Into Darkness Arrives – Poll & Open Thread May 15, 2013

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback


Vote and chat about Star Trek Into Darkness all weekend in sticky open thread.

 

Star Trek Into Darkness is here

The wait is finally over. Star Trek Into Darkness has finally arrived in North America. In addition the movie is opening up worldwide in a number of countries over the next couple of days including Columbia, Panama, Peru, Egypt, Lebanon, UAE, India, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillippines, Thailand, Croatia, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Norway, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Sweden, and Ukraine.  So by Friday most of the world will now be able to see Into Darkness.

TrekMovie.com has already posted a review and now it is your chance. TrekMovie has created a new fan reviews page for Into Darkness.

POLL

We have created a new poll. Please only vote in the poll if you have actually seen the movie.

Rank Star Trek Into Darkness (if you have seen it)

  • Best Star Trek Film (15%)
  • Great Star Trek Film (48%)
  • Good Star Trek Film (19%)
  • OK Star Trek Film (9%)
  • Bad Star Trek Film (6%)
  • Worst Star Trek Film (3%)

Total Votes: 8,433

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DISCUSS STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS (WITH ANY SPOILERS)

Below chat about the movie, including discussing any spoilers.

 

UPDATE: Discussion closed: Moved to new open thread

 

 

 

 

 

WARNING: This open thread is for people who have seen the movie. If you haven’t seen the movie you really shouldn’t be reading this as you are sure to get spoiled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

1. Schwozh - May 15, 2013

I’ve already seen it in Sweden. xD

2. Anthony Pascale - May 15, 2013

Shall we begin?

3. Josh C. - May 15, 2013

about 4 hours until the Star Trek double features start…

4. Dirty Harry - May 15, 2013

SPOILER REVIEW

After a 4-year wait and a team of people so brilliantly talented, the one word I shouldn’t be using is “rushed”.

Unfortunately “rushed” is the best word I can find to describe STID. It’s not terrible but it’s certainly not brilliant.

- The film feels rushed – jumping from one scene to another.
- The dialogue feels rushed – no time for character in between the action.
- The plot feels rushed – is this the best they could do given so much scope?

Now don’t get me wrong – I want to love NuTrek. I initially didn’t like the new-look ship and the ibridge. But I’ve come to terms with all of that and I think there’s so much good in this new universe:

- The production values are better than we’ve ever seen before.
- The actors are brilliant and I honestly don’t miss the original cast, however much they’ll always have a special place in my heart.
- the dialogue is clever, witty, and faithful to the original.

But there’s one area that I feel lets everything down, and I’m almost embarrassed to say it because I know Bob Orci reads these pages, and that is the writing. Not the dialogue writing but the basic plot ideas.

The plot feels rushed (again) and lazy. What was probably intended to be an homage (Khan / reactor death etc) actually feels like a lack of originality. Why spend so much time and money in re-launching Star Trek, only to then fall straight back on to old villains and old ideas?

In my opinion, Khan simply doesn’t work as a villain – his “vengeance” doesn’t really make sense and he’s not really the true bad guy. It feels like the writers took a load of random ideas and threw them all together:

- Let’s do Khan!
- Wouldn’t it be cool to do something with Section 31?!?
- What about a huge starship?!?

To carry on my problem with how unoriginal this film feels, many scenes are lifted from ST09:

- Kirk fails and then succeeds (theme, not scene)
- Kirk works out that it’s a trap (Ent bridge / Starfleet meeting)
- Let’s punch it!
- the ending
- hanger bay before the mission
- shuttle to the Enterprise
- the big, bad, black enemy ship
- and so many more…

How sad that so many fans on this website came up with more original and more creative suggestions. That shouldn’t be possible!

Ideas that really excited me prior to the film:

- Gary Mitchell done with a big budget!
- Captain April gone bad!
- A renegade Starfleet officer!
- A film that wasn’t about a bad guy wanting revenge!

And yet we get a Khan who doesn’t really make sense. Marcus is the true bad guy. In fact, I spent most of the film thinking Khan might have been decent (at least that would have been original) but then he just falls into an unexplained stereotype…

Whatever you may think of the original Star Trek films, at least they were varied in theme and plot:

- TMP: An ancient probe looking for home
- TWOK: A returning villain looking for revenge
- TSFS: A mission to rescue a fallen colleague
- TVH: A bit of time-travel fun
- TFF: Klingons and a crazy but good-hearted Vulcan
- TUC: A mission of peace and an internal threat

And now we have:
09: Bad guy wants revenge in big, black ship
13: Bad guy wants revenge in big, black ship

Seriously?

OK, let’s change the record… Did anyone else feel like they’d seen the film before arriving at the cinema?

Despite JJ’s desperation for secrecy, there were no surprises at all. We knew Khan was coming, we had seen the Vengeance, we’d even seen its demise which turned out to be the end of it. I was waiting for some surprises but none came my way, despite avoiding spoilers and just watching trailers.

There was also no surprise in Kirk’s death and resurrection. The writers were never going to kill Kirk in Film#2 so there was no emotion and no surprise.

It sounds like I hated STID and I didn’t; here’s what I liked:

- the special effects
- the actors
- the nods to the original series
- the costumes
- the sets (yes, even engineering)
- the characters (apart from Kahn, who was unnecessary)
- the ships
- the Klingons
- the list could go on and on (it’s basically everything we see on screen)

But why can’t we be treated to a brand-new, fantastically creative storyline?

Do 4 years of wait and all that money deserve a re-hashed villain and a rushed and mixed-up plot? Couldn’t this new, wonderful, crew have stood on their own two feet?

Couldn’t we have had a great movie about the mission to Nibiru and the consequences? The first 10 minutes were great…

STID: a disappointing spectacle or a spectacular disappointment? One of the two and not what we deserve. Such a shame.

5. Ciarán - May 15, 2013

I’ve seen it 5 times and I still can’t get enough of it! Seeing it again after work tomorrow!

6. aligee - May 15, 2013

At last we can discuss!
Saw it last Thursday her in Glasgow IMAX the UK and loved it.
It look beautifully shot – actors were great and loved the music
Im sure i heard a short refrain from TWOK near the very end of the film!
Anyone else?

And as for Khan – gotta admit that was a shocker for me – my Wife guessed it at the blood sample scene in the brig!

Worth the wait? Yes.. using Khan and all the stolen lines from TWOK? Yes i think so, my 20 and 22 years old daughters loved it and so did all my friends who are not huge trek fans – off to see it again next week – but in 2D this time.. 3D does my eyes in although I thought it was the best 3D I have seen in a film!

KHAAAAAAAAN!

7. Xavier_Storma - May 15, 2013

I hated ST 2009. Never planned to watch the sequel, when my dad invited me to go with him, when I was visiting my parents (we have seen every film together since 1991 when I was at primary school).

Suffice to say. I enjoyed it. Yes, it had gapping plotholes, yes Khan was completely unnecessary, yes, the last quarter of the film could really have been completely different (I wonder how they dared to copy and paste TWOK and not expect criticism for this). But… on the contrary to 2009, it was dense, had a much better cinematography and actually felt like… well Star Trek. The scenes on the Enterprise, the use of the Enterprise, Kronos, Earth with its various beautiful locations… eye candy!

It is a popcorn flick, a 1000 times better than the 2009 film was (imho at least) and eventhough I won’t go to see it in cinemas again, I will actually get the Blu Ray to watch it at home occasionally.

Now I also see the problem with the reboot. Not JJ, not the cast, not even the redesign (the big E grew on me in this film… a shame they changed it after it almost crashed), the authors.

Since I know that Mr.Orci and Mr. Kurtzman are visiting this site… Please. Let someone go over your screenplay and check out for plotholes.
- When Kirk violates the prime directive by revealing the Enterprise, everyone ask him/herself… how did he NOT violate the prime directive when he took her UNDER water
- Why does Starfleet hold that emergency meeting in a conference room on the top of the skyskraper where instead they should go to a save bunker?
- Why doesn’t starfleet use a similar transwarp transporter to get their men on Kronos?
- What happens to the starbase when Vengence attacks the Enterprise?
- Why doesn’t McCoy use the blood of one of the 72 augments on board to revive Kirk? Answer: No hunt for Khan on Earth.
- Where are Starfleet security officers on Earth, or is Spock the only Starfleet personal left?

This is not nitpicking. It is totally obvious. Please avoid such huge mistakes in the sequel. And you will win me over completely.

8. Daniel - May 15, 2013

I saw it only 4 times! Love it! So much goosebumps! Proud to love Trek

9. Lancelot Narayan - May 15, 2013

BC would have made a great villain, just not THAT one!

Khan Noonian Singh is, by ethnicity, a Sikh. What is a blue-eyed Home Counties boy doing playing Khan???

10. Toby - May 15, 2013

^@4 I’m finding it difficult to disagree with almost all of your points, I didn’t really have a problem with them doing Khan (The Dark Knight didn’t get slagged off for doing the Joker) my beef is the re-hashing of the Wrath of Khan scenes & dialogue – came across as a bit contrived and lazy (just like the Delta Vega scenes in 09). Maybe it’s a good thing JJ will be doing Star Wars instead of Trek 3, a dose or originality is what’s required for the next instalment, no question.

Flip side is the film is a balls out blockbuster thrill ride which as a cinematic experience is way better than Iron Man 3, and probably anything else this summmer.

11. trekmaster78 - May 15, 2013

@#4/ Dirty Harry
TNG movies implemented the villain concept. Nemesis, ST2009, STID even feels all the same. STID is a mixture of things we’ve already seen in ST2, ST7, ST10.

12. Darkwater - May 15, 2013

My minor gripes:

- The whole plot point of Kirk being Captain, then commander, then Captain for all of what felt like 10 minutes was awkward.

- The plot felt political, it felt like a lot of 9/11 Conspiracy theories you hear about, like how it was an inside job in order to set us up for a war in which we can take resources. That said, this will come across in later years a a movie that’s a product of its time, which is status quo for Trek.

- My only casting gripe with Khan was that he didn’t look anything like his counterpart. The rest of the crew I was fine with, especially since these are younger versions. Khan would have actually been older than Ricardo Montablan was in Space Seed at this point.

But, this is the internet, focus on the bad and ignore the good. Honestly, I loved it. To me it almost came across as really good fan fiction with enough action/adventure to keep the general audience’s interest.

Throwing in things like Section 31, a model of the NX-01, down to referencing Mudd from “Countdown to Darkness” and the Gorn c-section in the latest game made the fanboy inside of me totally happy.

13. boborci - May 15, 2013

4. Wanna go through an exercise?

Pitch me Wrath of Khan without using any names.

For example,

Star Trek Three:

We open on a man recently returned from a long voyage that ended in when he lost his best friend. Or so he thinks.

When the lost friend’s father pays our hero a visit, he informs him that there may yet be hope to save his friends life.

Unfortunately, there will be many obstacles. The authorities will not allow our hero to return to the site of the tragedy, and he defies orders with the help of his other friends to voyage to the location.

Unfortunately, while there, another set of travelers descends on the area looking for the very power that killed our hero’s fallen friend.

14. Lancelot Narayan - May 15, 2013

Also, I would have liked to have seen all that exposition played out instead of the speeches we got.

15. boborci - May 15, 2013

etc…

get the idea?

16. DIGINON - May 15, 2013

Unfortunately, I thought that Leonard Nimoy’s cameo was a complete waste. Basically he was there to tell the audience not familiar with Trek lore that Khan is dangerous – just in case there was anybody left who hadn’t figured that out by that point in the movie. Other than that he didn’t add anything to the story.

17. Factchecker - May 15, 2013

@4 – Best review and assessment I have read to date. Well said.

18. Kenji - May 15, 2013

Seeing it tonight, will cross post my review here, if anyone cares.

@15

Pitching is a separate skill. The question of originality is distinct; is this film adding to the canon or rearranging previously seen parts?

Of course, that has nothing to do with my enjoyment. Trek is a genre, not simply a story or even a series of stories. It is formula by design: as you know, being such a Trekker, Roddenberry’s logline to NBC was ‘Wagon Train To the Stars,” so it was always deriving from something else, in particular western tropes.

I loved the “remix” quality of your earlier movie, actually.

19. Karen - May 15, 2013

For Mr Orci, if he has the stomach to come here:

I love it. Love it love it love it. Thank you, to everyone involved. I think your choices were brave and bold and truly fascinating. I love the mirroring of WoK, the death a singular event imbued with such different meaning and purpose this time. Shout out to Simon Pegg, whose Scotty is a revelation. He’s not comic relief, there is an astonishing humanity and vulnerability there. Shout out to Bruce Greenwood – Pike’s death is gutting, heart-wrenching without a word spoken. His scenes with Pine are wonderful. I could go on and on and on. Do I think your film is perfect? No. There are some structural issues I could quibble on, even though I see why you did what you did. But on balance? You achieved something fabulous. Please, please, be pleased and proud of yourselves. Don’t let the hate diminish you.

20. Scott Umsteadt - May 15, 2013

I haven’t seen it yet but I am concerned about the alleged plot holes. We waited four years for them to “Do it right” and there’s what sounds like pretty big plot holes?

21. Lancelot Narayan - May 15, 2013

STAR TREK II – THE WRATH OF KHAN

A man is coming to the end of his successful career and is at a loose end.

An old adversary reappears and swears revenge.

Our protagonist gets a distress call from somebody he once loved and heads out, surrounded by youth, to investigate.

On the way, he meets a son he never really knew who has been working (with his mother, our hero’s lost love) on a device which creates life from nothing.

In a last ditch attempt to destroy our hero, the villain unleashes said device, but in order to escape, our hero’s best friend sacrifices his life.

Through his grief, our hero is grateful for what he has now, and realizes that instead of autumn, it could quite possibly be spring.

22. ME!! - May 15, 2013

Time for a new writing team.

Rehash, retread, rework….how about something ORIGINAL?

And as for people associating “nuTrek” and better production values with things such as the “iBridge”, etc….we could have better production values WITHOUT poorly designed command centers and spacecraft (bright lights aimed directly into the faces of the crewmen at their stations? Really?!)

I’ve had enough of it. I’m ready for someone else’s take on Trek. The dialog is great between the main characters, but I’m so done with the rest.

23. Matt - May 15, 2013

have you folks ever heard of PLASTIC SURGERY!

24. Terrestris - May 15, 2013

Have to say that I agree with a lot of what @Dirty Harry said – particularly the lack of originality.

I was mildly disappointed that Khan was chosen to be a villain, although I can understand it as he is the only Trek villain that the general public is likely to have heard of, and overall I do think the interpretation of Khan was different enough to work.

However, my main issue was once it became obvious that basically the entire reactor scene from TWOK was going to be reused (okay, with a twist) – it may have been intended as an homage, but to me it felt more like a blatant rip-off. Further, knowing that there is going to be a third film makes it inconceivable that Kirk would truly die – so his resurrection was obvious (as was the method).

Up until that point, I was really enjoying the film – but the inclusion of that scene just kind of ruined it somewhat (NB I know “ruined” reads harshly, and “ruined” isn’t what I really mean, but I’ve been thinking about how to express this for a couple of days and have yet to find a decent way to accurately articulate my exact thoughts about this).

Maybe a second viewing will let me finalise my opinion, but at the moment disappointing is a word that I am associating with this – which is a shame as it wouldn’t have occurred to me to be disappointed half way through.

25. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

I think 4. Dirty Harry – May 15, 2013
has some valid points.

Here is my take on the movie:
http://trekmovie.com/into-darkness-fan-reviews/#5095304

26. boborci - May 15, 2013

21. NICE!

27. NCC-73515 - May 15, 2013

Morals are back. Parallels to current controversial events are back. This film has an ethical message, and is therefore very much classic Trek!
But… Klingons appear for a mere minute or so. Space battles are over after just a few seconds. The FSNP is done with only 3 instead of 5 fingers.
Seriously, it’s a good movie with a classic Trek theme. I still kinda like TVH and FC better. Into Darkness is certainly better than the last one, though.
Yes, the hommage scene was weird, and the cameo a joke (how does this information help?!). A british guy ruling over India also feels wrong, historically speaking. And why have a cybernetic crewman if he only gets 200 ms of screen time and one line? Why let the Vengeance sound like a propeller plane? Why does 31 now have crazy blue-gray suits? Despite these disappointments, it is a very pleasing experience to see Section 31 on the big screen, or to spot that little XCV 330 model and even a little Gemini capsule and an A4 rocket. The ‘Kelvin Memorial Archive’ was a nice subtle reference to the last film. The torpedoes (thank you for changing pink to red) could have been inspired by the TNG tech manual.
And for the magic-haters: It was not magic. He wasn’t dead, only fatally injured. The enhanced thrombocytes healed his body, while his brain function was preserved in cryostatis. So there was no supernatural revival and we won’t have Jesus Tsombie Kirk in the next one ;D
Watch it if you’re a fan of classic Trek morality tales, if you like references to previous Trek, or if you enjoy little things like a cable car in 2259 San Francisco. Avoid it if you’re only interested in epic space battles. I guess it’s a film more suited for politically interested adults than people who expect mindless phaser fights. Which is a good thing!

28. JohnRambo - May 15, 2013

@4. Dirty Harry

what the hell is wrong with you?

29. startrekthemovie@gmail.com - May 15, 2013

I am still NOT reading anything TrekMovie or otherwise (till next week).

30. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 15, 2013

Scrub that last post…

This one’s official.

I am still NOT reading anything TrekMovie or otherwise (till next week).

31. JohnRambo - May 15, 2013

Leonard Nimoy, Rod Roddenberry, LeVar Burton and more said it was awesome and Chris Doohan even said it is the best Star Trek to date!

So stop wasting your time hating on this Movie! These people know their shit!

32. Doc - May 15, 2013

I dont get the beef with the TWOK scene rehash. I really dont. They are similar but they are DIFFERENT. Kirk deals with death in both cases but they are dissimilar because he is on the receiving end this time. And it ties into the unique story arc of Spock and Kirk in the Abramsverse.

So yeah, watch the movie and enjoy the ride.

33. Madame la forge - May 15, 2013

Bob… I still think you’ve missed a trick here.
When do we get to see the Keesner Christmas special on planet Keesner, celebrating life day? Scotty forces the enterprise to drop him off while the crew enjoy shore leave. Said story closes with Kirk, Spock , and crew singing together the traditional life day tune, last bum note reserved for Keesner! Cut to Scotty, “see”…..”I told ya he could sing”… Fade as crew laugh in unison .

It’s a hit! :)

34. Dirty Harry - May 15, 2013

@28 – Just because my opinion is clearly different from your own, it does not mean that there is anything “the hell” wrong with me. I’m only here for adult and open-minded discussion and apologise if that offends you.

@15 – Mr Orci Sir, I am genuinely humbled to talk to you. Despite my obvious criticisms, I can only dream of doing what you do and take my hat off to you from the other side of the Atlantic! :-)

I’d be happy to do what you ask but am on a tablet and about to get some sleep. 21 summed it up beautifully, shall we continue or do you want my take?

35. Anthony Lewis - May 15, 2013

The jabs about originality are hilarious especially from Star Trek fans who should know better.

Instead those arguments come off like “I’m mad cause you used a bad guy I liked a lot from other movies and shows and recasting him is a crime”.

There are only so many kinds of stories you can tell, in fact some people think we have told every conceivable story and everything else is just a variation on a theme. Name a great Star Trek movie and I can name another story that is borrows from.

Heck even Star Trek shows have copied episodes and themes from one another. How man TOS episodes where there that shared similar themes?

Originality needs to be forgotten about at the core of a story. The originality comes in how the story is told. In that way I’m sure a lot of this movie is original.

36. boborci - May 15, 2013

go to bed! I’ll be here all week;)

37. Commodore Adams - May 15, 2013

@ 5. Ciarán You are crazy! lol :D thats awesome, ill probably end up seeing it 5 times myself.

@ 31. JohnRambo Amen brother!

All you naysayers, you’re just so pathetic and bitter and I bet your all 40+ years old, “those kids and their damned music” kind of attitude. You got old and forgot how to have youthful fun, how to appreciate something fast paced and exhilarating. I wish I could describe to you how sick and tired I am of reading your complaints about these new Star Trek movie. 81% of the votes are combined of best, great or good and only 19% say its ok, bad, or worst…..what does that tell you? And don’t say you are part of the discerning few, it would be overly cliche statement. Sorry but majority wins! I love how rushed this movie is, its a roller coaster ride, you don’t have time to catch your breath and I love that!

38. Commodore Adams - May 15, 2013

@ boborci, well done! Another fantastic movie! Thank you.

39. Grand Marshal Skaldak - May 15, 2013

John Harrison is Mugato.

40. David Oakes - May 15, 2013

How can anyone in their right mind describe this as the worst Star Trek film ?

Damn Negative Nancy’s.

41. Ciarán - May 15, 2013

boborci, I loved the movie beyond imagination! Thank you for giving us this fantastic Star Trek movie and I hope you can deliver an even better-again Star Trek movie in 2016 for the 50th anniversary!

42. Madame la forge - May 15, 2013

@39 man…never saw that coming! Ha

43. Scott McC - May 15, 2013

@boborci, many thanks for a great Star Trek movie. I and my family thoroughly enjoyed it and hope you will stay on for the next instalment.

Live long and prosper.

44. ME!! - May 15, 2013

@37 No, son, I know BAD writing when I see/hear it and know damn well how to have plenty of fun without drugs or booze. I was having more fun than your disrespectful sorry a$$ would know what to do with before you were an itch in your daddy’s pants. I’m sick and tired of sissified, pathetic candy asses like you who excuse a poor screenplay because the finished product looks neat. But then again you probably weren’t even paying attention because you were too busy playing with your frikkin’ phone, texting your mommy that you put out the trash before you skipped your way to the theater.

It’s a free country and we all have our opinions. I won’t tell you what yours should be so don’t tell me you don’t want to hear mine. Don’t want to read about it, then go to some other site.

45. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

I don’t think anybody posting here does so because they hate Star Trek or want the movie to fail. Neither do I believe that anybody here wants to hate on the movie team. However, I do believe fans should be able to express their own opinions and feelings – critical or not – without being insulted.

I hold Star Trek films to a higher standard than other movies. That is not fair to the film’s creators, but for me it has been such a huge source of inspiration and hope when I was young. I want it to be the same thing for future generations. I can’t say for sure, but I believe I probably would not have become a scientist, if not for Star Trek. For most films today it’s “brains off, fun on”. That’s ok. Frankly, I can forgive quite a lot. However, I was kind of hoping that the new Trek would a bit less “style over substance” than the last one.

46. Sion C - May 15, 2013

I’m in the UK and I’ve seen the movie twice now. For starters, if you can see this film in IMAX 3D do it! I’ve seen quite a few films in IMAX 3D now and hands down STID has them all beat hands down… It truly is an immersive, almost visceral experience in this format, with the final ‘warp out’ one of my new favourite cinema images.

After my first viewing I must say I left the cinema disappointed. Not because STID is a bad movie, it’s far from it, but because of the big reveal. I went into this film having heard all the rumours about who was playing whom, and also with the denials of every person involved in making it. And so, when the moment in the brig arrives and John Harrison reveals his true identity… It completely removed me from the film. I didn’t think “wow what a twist!” I also didn’t think “what?!? Who” all I could think was “really? They rebooted the entire franchise, created an alternate timeline and this is pretty much the first thing they do with it?!” And that is all I could concentrate on for the rest of the film! And as such, I was completely removed from everything after.

So, instead of declaring any hatred or bile, I saw the film a 2nd time just a few hours later… And knowing what was coming, I was able to enjoy this film much more than I did on my initial viewing. As I said at the start, no film has impressed me as much as this film has in 3D (as a rule I’m not a fan of 3D) and when the IMAX format is added to it… The film really does look massive and real and epic in a way no Star Trek film has to me before.

I genuinely believe that all the well deserved praise that Benedict Cumberbatch is getting, and he is incredible… is detracting from a threesome of great performances in this film: Chris Pine has never been better! His ability to portray the arrogance of Kirk, the slight immaturity of Kirk against the heartbreak of Kirk in the aftermath of Harrison’s attack on Starfleet or The moment in the bar where Pike tells Kirk he has faith in him and you see Chris Pine physically holding back the emotion gave me goosebumps. I do think Chris Pine is a more assured actor this time round, and his growth in the last 4 years is Kirk’s growth… For me, he is Kirk. Zachary Quinto as Spock is another revelation, everything he does in this film is perfection (with the exception of the khan moment in engineering… Sorry but both times it made me laugh and not in a good way) every line, every look, every mild facial expression is so perfectly executed that its almost breathless to watch him bring Spock to life. Lastly Simon Pegg, sadly underused in the last film is a joy in this one. People will say the words ‘comic relief’ in relation to him, to Scotty… And that barely does it justice. He is amazing in this film, the character becoming less comedic and more moralistic… The man we all would be if we were in space! And lastly, the Big E herself… Some people don’t like her on the outside, some don’t like her on the inside but for me, actually getting too see her, see more of her this time round was a big thrill. In the first film I didn’t really believe they were on a starship… This time round she was almost a character herself, more enterprise interiors please.

So after all my rambling I shall say… It took two viewings but I got there. Great performances all round from all actors, great direction from J.J Abrams, and a great script. Could it have been better, yes of course it could have but then again, so could every other film ever made (with few exceptions) Has it made me want to turn my back on Star Trek, a franchise I have loved for 20years? Not a chance! Do I feel like its a part of the Star Trek I have loved for 20years? As my fave Scot might say “Too bloody right it does!” Even if it took two viewings to get there.

47. Madame la forge - May 15, 2013

@44 are you John Harrison?!!

48. ME!! - May 15, 2013

Pretty magical that Khan & Kirk have the same blood type…

Overall, entertaining and fun, but there’s some serious room for ORIGINALITY and improvement. Benedict is super as always. It may look cool, but I still have a bug about the “super star destroyer” of Star Trek. It’s a bit silly.

Don’t even get me started about the rehashed plot.

Good for an afternoon with a bucket of buttered popcorn.

49. Paul (london) - May 15, 2013

@ bob orci

Who decided on the TWOK elements & why IMO you hurt the movie that way you did a great job in 2009 & created the 2nd best ST movie ever so why the sudden change now after spending all that time/money setting up a semi new universe in 09!

Its not logical is it all you had to do was something more original now you have upset some fans (like me) just for the sake of it the TWOK elements added nothing positive did they it could have been anything & just made me come out of the movie altogether when I should have been crying over the death scene!

Just redeem yourself on the next one please go original story only again!!

Thanks for listening

50. Lancelot Narayan - May 15, 2013

#26 Cheers, Bob!

51. Terrestris - May 15, 2013

@35 I realise that there is nothing new under the sun so to speak, but there is a difference between telling the same story and repeating whole sections verbatim. I agree with your statement that a lot of this movie is original, in fact I’d say that most of it works very well – especially the casting – I just didn’t like the wholesale copying of the scene.

@31, @37 I never said I hated the film, nor did I say it was terrible – since when does disappointing mean either of those? If pushed, I’d vote Good or Great as well – as I still haven’t fully decided how I feel I’d rather defer for now

@32 I think a big issue is that Kirk’s “death” doesn’t have any impact when you know there will be a third film, as the result has to be undone, When TWOK was released, there wasn’t going to be a sequel as far as I am aware (I wasn’t alive at the time, and don’t know when TSFS was announced) so Spock’s death had impact.

52. Avi - May 15, 2013

Have you guys noticed that time and distance seem to mean nothing in the JJVerse? In Star Trek 09, they made it to Vulcan (15 light years away) in minutes. In this one, they made it to Kronos in less than a day (as evidence by Scotty’s line – ‘One day! I’ve been off the ship one day!’) and then made it back to Earth in mere seconds when running from the Vengence – and that with a damaged reactor.

And when the ship was crashing into Earth’s atmosphere they were worried about burning up, which would require orbital speeds. Yet they didn’t start braking until they were almost in cloud cover. Any burning up would have already happened by then. And at reentry speeds, they would be mere milliseconds from hitting the ground at that point.

53. NCC-73515 - May 15, 2013

48 ME!!

Blood type depends on erythrocytes, not thrombocytes,

You may want to read this as well… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platelet-rich_plasma

54. GermanTrekker - May 15, 2013

Dammit, I liked the movie a lot! Saw it here in Germany with two friends, one girl who only knows VOYAGER, and one Russian. Both told me, they had a fantastic time watching STID! And so did I as a hardcore fan.

@boborci: Khan does work for me in this one! But I also understand some of the critics who say Khan is a Sigh from India and should therefore be portrayed by a non-caucasian actor. There is a very interesting article on wikipedia that says Khan was orgiginally supposed to be a Nordic-superman named Harold Ericcsen in the first draft of “Space Seed”. So my question to the writing team: did you took anything from the development history of the character or is this just a coincidence? (“Nordic” look of Cumberbatch plus the name John Harrison that comes very close to Harold Ericcsen, which you couldn´t use of course)

55. Phil - May 15, 2013

@4 Well, the numbers would tend to suggest otherwise, for this to be the spectacular failure you are alluding to absolutely no one would have to be in theaters on week two. Considering there are tracking reports now showing the movie opening at about 100MM this weekend, that’s impossible. Along with the large number of positive reviews who are looking at the movie in the context of what constitutes a summer blockbuster, it’s really not out of line to see that the movie will be really successful. Some of the more ardent fans may pick a nit – and your own criticism is an eyebrow raiser. You chastise the writers for being lazy and offering up retreads, and then suggest what your ideas you would have preferred – more retreads. Sorry, but you wrote a small novel to say what several have said in a few lines, you are not a fan of JJ’s version of Trek, regardless…

56. Miko - May 15, 2013

I loved BC as Khan, I would have been upset if he really had been John Harrison after all the cloak and dagger stuff. I went into the cinema with only rumours and when my dad turned to me and said I think he’s Khan 1 minute before BC revealed it, I was like yeah amazing! One of the few thrills these days with all the spoilers out there… Well done JJ and crew! Can’t wait for the next one, and I hope we see BC return as Khan in a future film!
Go Trek… Live long and prosper.

57. Mr Phil - May 15, 2013

Can we talk now? Is it safe?
My brief take on the film – overall very enjoyable. Saw it in IMAX 3D, 3D seemed to work well and wasn’t overcooked. The IMAX sequences didn’t stand out in terms or resolution, couldn’t see any difference. Maybe something to do with post production and pulling sequences back into same res as rest of film. Shame.
Loved the Pike sequences, well, until, (sniff). In fact, really enjoyed the first half of the film. Didn’t dislike the rest, the main reveal was a surprise, and while it felt a little contrived was willing to see where it went. And for a while seemed to work well, albeit not entirely convinced of K’s motives.
Admiral Marcus worked well, though the massive ship was a bit ott. The reactor scene was a massive eye roller for me, not an issue presumably for new fans, but to me it really felt contrived. Would happily see a reshoot with that sequence done differently!
But overall, nicely done, and I’m sure I’ll be queuing up for the next one. No more cut and paste though please!

58. boborci - May 15, 2013

54. Not a coincidence. Inspired by Ericsen. In fact, we shot the movie using the name Ericsenn but decided it would give it away so we cheated the name Harrison into everyone’s mouth!

59. Werner Held - May 15, 2013

Dear Mr. Orci,
if you read this…

I thank you and the team behind STID for your passion and for your work. As it seems the new movie becomes a success and this can’t be a bad thing for “STAR TREK”.

But…

I’m a bit disappointed, too, because it seems to me, that the new Trek is steering into a bad direction. While watching a movie I’d like to be entertained, of course …. but I don’t like to left my brain at home in order to have fun with it.

I believe that you don’t get the job of one of the writers if you’re not good in what you ar doing. I know further, that the definition of being good in your job is measured by the studio if your work and the work of all other people brings in a huge amount of cash…

But … is there no why to fill such plot-holes which are corrupting my attempt of having fun while watching Star Trek?

STID could have been a much better movie, but e.g. the following things are so – sorry – stupid…

—The Enterprise is hiding submerged—
Why? What about waiting in orbit for the return of the away team?
Why beaming is not possible? Why it is not possible to beam Mr. Spock out of the vulcan, when it is later possible to (trans-)beam from earth to Qo’noS?

—Kahns Torpedoes—
Besides that I ask myself why Admiral Marcus needs the knowledge of a 300 year old frozen guy, I’m a bit confused… Kahn was blackmaild by Marcus with his Crew. Now somehow Kahn was able to get his crew back, but instead of waking them up and e.g. take the USS Vengeance and make some trouble, Kahn is apparently undisturbed while he is working on 72 torpedoes?! After that nobody notices that there is something wrong with that weapons? Come on…

—Kahn is surprised—
Right… Kahn is beaming 72 Torpedoes from an enemy ship (the Enterprise) aboard, and is not guessing that his opponent might have manipulated them? Well Kahn … you are not that clever, aren’t you?

—Kahn’s blood—
Yeah… there are 72 genetic enhanced people right in front of Dr. McCoy, but in order to rescue Kirk it is essential to get Kahns blood… why? Because of it’s taste?! Come on! This is just soooo poor.

—Uhura saves the day—
Sure… in case of a unstoppable supersoldier is kicking asses send a girl with a phaser not a trained specialist or a security team (Red Shirts ;) …

—Alternate timeline—
Why are you recreating TWOK? Is there no creativity anymore in Hollywood? This is a matter of taste of course, but it felt lame… while in the original there was a followable motive for the doings of the protagonists, in STID many things are feeling to simple …

###

So my point is: Why not creating a story with a bit of depth?
Why not presuming that the people who are watching your work are not all totally dumb?

Perhaps there are reasons I don’t know? Again cutted scenes from the movie (like 2009)? Please tell me/us…

Thanks in Advance (in in hope for a BETTER future of Star Trek).
Werner

60. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

@boborci

How are you guys getting out of the whole trans-warp beaming and Khan blood heals everything story? I mean there’s a lot of indication for a Klingon war in the next movie. Will we see Iron Man 3-like supermen beaming onto Kronos only to be cut up by Bat’leths but growing back together? Say it ain’t so.

61. Exverlobter - May 15, 2013

I kind of liked the film, think it was better than the last one. What worked in STID what the “micromanagement” in the writing of Orci and Kurtzman. Things for example like the demotion of Kirk which relativized the insane fast promotion of Kirk in the last one.

However, what didn’t turn out as good this time was the basic frame of the film.
From the start i was an opponent of the idea of reusing Khan, because i feared that it would turn out to be too much like TWOK. But a few friends convinced me that Khan must not be necessarily be a bad thing, he might be just be a familiar element in a vastly different film.

But my early fears came indeed true. The last third of the film felt like a big nostalgic love-letter to TWOK, with recycled scenes that were just altered a little bit
For example the famous death scene or the notorious Khaaaan-scream.
I would have preferred new ideas.

62. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 15, 2013

I’ve seen it 4 times so far now: once in 2D; once in 3D; and twice more in 2D. I’ll be going again in the next day or so.

Is it perfect? Of course not. Do I love it? Obviously.

Each time I go, I get to see, hear and understand more of the character interactions that have a tendency to get lost (for me, anyway) in the frantic pace and action of the movie.

A couple of things I don’t like:-

the Marcus underwear scene – yes, she’s changing from the dress into the flight suit while discussing the mission with Kirk, but the actual underwear shot seems gratuitous and unnecessary ;

the Spock scream. Yes, he’s angry and distraught, but it’s not really doing anything for me. I’d probably have been happier with it if the scream had been just an inarticulate scream of rage. By contrast, the Marcus scream – despite what I thought about it when first seeing it in a trailer – is absolutely appropriate and spot-on. In fact I cannot stop myself from turning away from the screen at the scene that prompts the scream – despite the fact there is nothing to see anyway, only the sound of what prompts the scream…

A couple of things I do like:-

Spock’s conversation with Pike. Each time I see it I laugh out loud. Quinto really nails it in annoyed sassy Vulcan mode. Spock was often sassy in the TOS series (not so much the movies, in my opinion – I guess that had been Kolinahr’d out of him);

the general level of humour in the interactions. The characters are not setting out to be funny, they just are. This again is so reminiscent of TOS;

the chase scene and subsequent fight on the ‘floating barge’. It’s quite a role reversal to see a Vulcan coming off second best to a Human in a fight. It wasn’t until the second viewing that I realised Spock was trying to telepathically attack Khan – and with only limited success. I also liked it that, in another role reversal, it was Uhura who came to Spock’s rescue and was able to distract Khan with repeated stunning so that Spock could finally get the upper hand.

There is so much there that is profound, and there is so much that is funny. The action pieces are spectacular, ethical and moral issues are dealt with, but in the end it is the character interactions which make it a good Star Trek movie for me.

A final quibble – the movie was too short. Is it too much to hope for that we might get an extended edition, not just a couple of deleted scenes, on the DVD?

63. Terrestris - May 15, 2013

@boborci Was using one of Khan’s genetically enhanced contemporaries considered? Thinking about it, I’m not sure if that would actually have achieved anything (as you’d almost certainly get “why didn’t they just use Khan” comments) – just curious to see if you thought of it.

64. Exverlobter - May 15, 2013

I think Bencedict Cumberbatch would have been a better Gary Mitchell.

65. boborci - May 15, 2013

59.Werner

q:—The Enterprise is hiding submerged—
Why? What about waiting in orbit for the return of the away team?
Why beaming is not possible? Why it is not possible to beam Mr. Spock out of the vulcan, when it is later possible to (trans-)beam from earth to Qo’noS?

A: Line of sight necessary given unstable and shifting magnetic field of super volcano on alien planet. That’s why no beaming. Gotta physically get back to the ship

q: Besides that I ask myself why Admiral Marcus needs the knowledge of a 300 year old frozen guy, I’m a bit confused… Kahn was blackmaild by Marcus with his Crew. Now somehow Kahn was able to get his crew back, but instead of waking them up and e.g. take the USS Vengeance and make some trouble, Kahn is apparently undisturbed while he is working on 72 torpedoes?! After that nobody notices that there is something wrong with that weapons? Come on…

A: because the federation has become a peaceful organization that has lost its edge and eye of the tiger for war. As John says in so many words. As for nobody knowing what’s inside, John clearly says he hid the bodies there and then he was discovered before he could smuggle them out. Marcus KNOWS what’s inside. It’s the ultimate FU to John to blow him up with T filled with his family.

q: Yeah… there are 72 genetic enhanced people right in front of Dr. McCoy, but in order to rescue Kirk it is essential to get Kahns blood… why? Because of it’s taste?! Come on! This is just soooo poor.

A: everyone is frozen, they could die if awakened improperly as Bones says, and Bones KNOWS John’s blood works. He doesn’t know anything about the others.

q: Sure… in case of a unstoppable supersoldier is kicking asses send a girl with a phaser not a trained specialist or a security team (Red Shirts ;) …

a: try telling that to Uhura when the man she loves is down there. She doesn’t lave things to others. And who says she doesn’t have training with a phaser?

q: Why are you recreating TWOK? Is there no creativity anymore in Hollywood? This is a matter of taste of course, but it felt lame… while in the original there was a followable motive for the doings of the protagonists, in STID many things are feeling to simple …

a: We didn’t recreate TWOK at all. pitch both stories next to each other and tell me with a straight face it’s the same story.

q: So my point is: Why not creating a story with a bit of depth?
Why not presuming that the people who are watching your work are not all totally dumb?

A: Not sure we watched the same movie.

66. Karen - May 15, 2013

I could be wrong, but here’s how I see the point of the WoK iconic scene that’s been reworked for this film.

In WoK, Spock’s definitive declaration of friendship, and his death, are the culmination of a decades’ long relationship between him and Kirk. They both know already that Spock has always been his friend, that their friendship has defined them, but for whatever reason it’s never been said out loud. Now, in his final moments, Spock wants to say it. He wants it on the record, so to speak. But he’s only stating the obvious.

This time, in the altered timeline, these two guys haven’t got that history. What they’ve got is frustration and misunderstanding and cross purposes and, for Kirk, a heads up from Spock Prime that they’re supposed to be life long friends. So he doesn’t quite get that it’s just not happening, and Spock – who’s never had a friend, doesn’t know what to do with a friend, doesn’t know how to be a friend – he’s just doing what he knows how to do, what he’s been taught is the right thing to do, and is genuinely shocked when it keeps backfiring on him. There’s a part of him that wants the friendship, knows he needs the friendship, even feels the friendship, but he’s not capable of articulating that in any way.

So Kirk’s death is a catalyst, it’s the light bulb going on, it’s the you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone moment, where finally he understands. It doesn’t matter that we, the audience, know that the death won’t stick. Spock and Kirk have no reason to think it won’t. So that is a real moment for them, and it’s hugely powerful, I think. Spock’s death in WoK is the coda to their shared lives … but Kirk’s death in ID is the defining moment that propels them into that legendary friendship. For Spock’s sake, Kirk wants him to understand that he put his career on the line to save him because he matters, because some things are more important than the rules. But for his own sake too he needs Spock to understand that, or what was the point? And the fact that Spock does get it, and says so, that’s his reward. That’s him knowing he didn’t do what he did for nothing. That Spock Prime was right.

So it’s not about being unoriginal, it’s not about disrespecting the source material, it’s about reinterpreting, reimagining, taking a pivotal moment in history and bending it around the fact that nothing in this timeline will be precisely as it was in the original. Which would be the whole point.

I think, anyhow.

67. boborci - May 15, 2013

63. Terrestris – May 15, 2013
@boborci Was using one of Khan’s genetically enhanced contemporaries considered? Thinking about it, I’m not sure if that would actually have achieved anything (as you’d almost certainly get “why didn’t they just use Khan” comments) – just curious to see if you thought of it.

A: No, we didn’t consider that. We did, however, consider and conceive of the story without K in mind. If you think about it, he could’ve revealed his name was Schmuko with a slightly different back story (super criminal from Federation jail, etc…) and that Marcus used him by threatening other people he cared about (family instead of crew) and the story still stands.

68. boborci - May 15, 2013

66. Karen

DING! We have a winner!

69. marty - May 15, 2013

things i hated:

*khan is now a british lad instead of indian, with NO EXPLANATION. oh, he has magic blood now that brings kirk back to life? he wasn’t that indestructible in space seed or wrath, so how/why is he so super now?

*the whole part how kirk dies/spock yelling “khan”. why? really. BE ORIGINAL.

*the fact that khan is involved at all..

*that the botany bay is modified than what it looked like in space seed.

*the fact that so much was in the trailers, that you could figure out how things were shaping up, especially with so much ‘secrecy’ into the plot of the movie.

*the fact that everyone figured out the basic premise/characters before the movie came out(or before spoilers in late april).

*scotty’s red hair. couldn’t simon wear a hair piece or dye it?

*lens flares.

*beer engineering / iBridge. sigh. hopefully the timeline gets reset in the next movie to fix them. along with everything else in this timeline that’s wrong. more on that..

*so much influence on this being a ‘stand-alone’ movie, rather than a sequel.

boborci, here’s a great idea for the next movie. you have my consent to use it. since it’s trek’s 50th anniversary, it should be a big movie with a lot of fan service moments that actually make us trekkies and trekkers happy instead of cringing.. like a lot of cruddy fan-service moments in the last 2 movies. the needs of the trekkies outweigh the needs of the general public!

since spock prime is in this timeline, let’s say he prevents the HOBUS star from exploding in the present, thus preventing all things in this timeline from happening. giving us back the ‘old’ enterprise/trek timeline. oh, as a second story that could interweave with spock prime, there’s now a black hole where vulcan was, right? what if a future ship.. let’s call it the USS Titan came through it. what if Q or guinan were involved? what if the nexus was involved and someone went in and got kirk prime out? just throwing out ideas that EVERY star trek fan would like. the star trek timeline is reset, the average movie goer will have seen a nice movie, all trekkies are happy that shatner’s kirk is now alive, and we have our post-nemesis timeline back, which could lead us to one last next generation movie! hooray!

whatever happens with star trek 13, the timeline needs to be reset. period. it basically negated everything that happened in trek history. it opened it up for new stories.. but there were plenty of stories left anyway! pre-TOS, the time between TOS and TNG, and everything after TNG were still pretty much unknown. what about the earth-romulan war? what happened with B4, did he turn into data? did picard advance to admiral? did seven of nine have kids with chakotay? did sisko come back out of the wormhole? etc.

70. Dogs can read minds - May 15, 2013

I still think Sybok would have been a great villain.

Instead of a story about an unfrozen 300 year old relic. We could have seen a Vulcan S31 agent, driven murderously insane over the loss of his mother, planet and majority of his species, going rogue and lashing out at the Federation’s enemies with such ruthlessness, that even Starfleet becomes a target when they try and reel him in.

Especially if he blames Kirk and his brother Spock personally, for failing to save his mother.

71. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

69. marty – May 15, 2013

I love your sense of humor :)

72. Lancelot Narayan - May 15, 2013

#66 Karen

Beautiful. You’ve made me want to see this film again.

73. Navy - May 15, 2013

I’ve bought my tickets for tonight.

This shall be interesting.

74. Anthony Pascale - May 15, 2013

A reminder that TrekMovie has a profanity filter so lacing your comments with f-bombs just gets the post auto-deleted. And don’t try and get cute by just messing with the spelling. This site is for civil discourse

75. Aurore - May 15, 2013

“I think Bencedict Cumberbatch would have been a better Gary Mitchell.”
________

…Or, in my opinion, he would have made a better “Ericsken” [ as everyone knows, in the original versions of the “Space Seed” scripts, one of the names for Khan was Harold Ericsson (sometimes Ericksen, sometimes Ericcson)]….and Roberto Orci said that he was an inspiration.

During the “big reveal” he could have given that name…”not that other name”…

76. philip - May 15, 2013

I’ve had one of the worst weeks of my adult life so the fact I get to see this film tomorrow couldn’t be better timing. I’m going to thank Bob Orci and co. in advance for allowing there to be another Trek feature film (regardless of my final opinion of it)… What a needed escape.

77. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 15, 2013

Now heading for. Into Darkness.

78. trekprinces - May 15, 2013

Boborci I thought reusing Khan was great Benedict pulled it off brilliantly

79. Karen - May 15, 2013

Okay, Bob. Now I’m blushing! And since you’re hanging around, I’ll gush at you a bit more since I’ll likely never get another chance.

Of the many many many things I truly do love about this film, (really, the reboot in general) is how you’re looking at the relationships. One thing that I wasn’t expecting, and am really impressed with, is how you’ve reinterpreted Scotty, and his relationship with Kirk. Because of the way they met there’s a whole new dynamic. I love how in-your-face Scotty is with Kirk, how relentlessly honest he is, how there’s the kind of respect that says — I will call you on your bullshit no matter what it costs me, because that’s how much I care about you. And the regard is mutual. I really love how this Kirk takes people for who they are and doesn’t stand on his dignity. When someone calls him on his bullshit, he listens. Mostly. He still seems to have a problem with being mother-henned by Bones. *g*

In the same vein, I love his dynamic with Uhura, who is seriously awesome in every way. Thank you. No cringeworthy hints of a love triangle there. Kirk cares about her, he respects her, he trusts her, as a friend and a colleague. Their little scene in the turbolift is pure gold. Because their shared history over-rides protocol and he can’t help himself, he has to vent to someone about Spock and she’s the only one who really gets it. And she feels the same, so there’s this wonderfully funny shared aarrgghhh!!!ness about it that makes them so real and human. Those three have a bond that in a way transcends Starfleet.

For me, if there was one thing missing from the film? I wish there’d been a small Bones/Spock scene in between Khan’s capture and Kirk’s waking, where we could’ve seen the growing bond between Bones and Spock, with Kirk as the bridge. But that’s a small nitpick.

Again, I thank you and the whole team. Silly as it may sound, I just really want you to know that there are folk out here in cyberland who get what you’re doing, love what you’re doing, and truly appreciate what you’re doing. You are beyond brave.

80. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 15, 2013

@66. Karen

Thank you for articulating this so well.

81. Exverlobter - May 15, 2013

How can the title of this film be Into Darkness with so many Lens-flares!

82. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

81. Exverlobter – May 15, 2013

Easy. You’re blinded by light :)

83. Jefferies Tuber - May 15, 2013

Less than four hours left. Just want to say thank you to Anthony and Bob Orci for making the four year wait much more bearable. If you ever want us fans to mobilize for you guys, just give the word. I’d hand write a letter to Paramount for either of you as deserving even more participation in the development of Trek.

I expect to love the film and, really, optimism of the lifeblood of Star Trek. I hope everyone does the same.

I don’t care about anybody else’s ranking of the films. If TWOK gets strip-mined, as all signs suggest, then so be it. Star Trek lives and Star Trek is for the living.

84. Dogs can read minds - May 15, 2013

Star Trek Int-erphase pocket.

Ahhh. Much better.

85. philip - May 15, 2013

I’d like to clarify something that’s been taken out of context about JJ Abrams.. He did say “I didn’t like Star Trek” growing up, but he certainly doesn’t feel that way now. He told Jon Stewart as a kid he didn’t “get” it, ya know, when he was 11 freaking years old lol.. But this quote is being made to sound like he hates Star Trek as an adult as well and that’s simply not true…

Lastly, Nicholas Meyer wasn’t a fan of Trek either b4 he crafted everyone’s Trek film.. So not liking Trek at any point in one’s life doesn’t mean it prevents them from making a feature film that’s respectable to the source material that comes b4 it.

86. Aqua - May 15, 2013

going @ midnight :)

87. benecardo cumbelban - May 15, 2013

@boborci

haven’t seen the movie yet, but can’t wait to. from what i’ve heard, it looks like it’s going to be a great movie. that being said, i have an issue (along with others) with the character khan being used, especially when being portrayed by a very non-khan looking actor. I’m assuming when cumberbatch was cast as khan that someone pointed out the physcial dissimilarites. was there ever any discussion of explaining the difference within the movie and, if so, why did you guys ultimately decide not to do so?

Cheers.

88. EvilSean - May 15, 2013

Just in from finally seeing it. Wow. @boborci, loved the nods to TWOK AND TSFS (Scotty sabotaging the ship). We’ll done to you all. Excellent movie.

It was so good, my Trek-apathetic girlfriend walked out of the theatre with me proclaiming that she loved it.

89. THX-1138 - May 15, 2013

Great to see all the fans of JJ’s Trek movies stooping to immature name-calling. Way to go.

90. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

88. EvilSean – May 15, 2013

“It was so good, my Trek-apathetic girlfriend walked out of the theatre with me proclaiming that she loved it.”

My experience was a bit different. As soon as the credits rolled, my gf proclaimed: “Iron Man was better.” She then proceeded to complain about the travel time between Kronos and Earth all the way home. Guess that’s what you’re getting for being in love with a nerd :)

91. somethoughts - May 15, 2013

At imax 3d sneak peak, 20mins!

92. Michael Hall - May 15, 2013

Am seeing it in a few hours here in San Diego. Will. Be. Fair.

93. lukas - May 15, 2013

@boborci

Congrats to a great trek movie. I saw it twice now and liked it even better the second time.

My only criticism would be that space lost a bit of its wastness by (i) being able to beam from star system to star system, (ii) by being able to communicate from the edge of Klingon space in real time with Earth and (iii) by apparently being able to warp from Kronos to Earth in what felt like seconds. If you are out there in deep space it should feel as if you are on your own and have to make your decisions without any help or even advice from your superiors. Happened to watch ‘Balance of Terror’ recently – herr it took hours to get a message through to starfleet, leaving it up to Kirk what to do. I think that’s essential to create a deep in space feeling…

Apart from that I think it was a great movie. If I had one wish for the next one it would be an intelligent story around the looming conflict with the Klingons.

I really appreciate that you’re sticking around here with us fans. Thanks!

94. Jeff O'Connor - May 15, 2013

Sitting at the sneak peek. T minus seven minutes. Whew.

95. BorgPhil - May 15, 2013

kudos to Bob again for turning up.

Bob – was that an exploded Praxis around kronos? Why has it exploded now in this timeline?

and why wasn’t it spelt Qo’nos :(

and please please please more Klingons in the next one

96. KHAAAN the weasel - May 15, 2013

@boborci:
I will refrain from listing all the stuff I either didn’t like or found hard to swallow because after all I LIKED the movie. Most of it just FELT right. However, I DO have a question. It might seem nitpicky, but to me one thing just stuck out like a sore thumb and that’s the question of HOW the torpedo-subplot actually makes sense?
Here’s my problem: So, I understand Marcus’s plan to get rid of both, Khan and the other augments by having someone fire those torps at him – No problem with that. BUT: Pretty early on in the movie, Scotty states that torpedoes need some kind of propulsion right? However, later we learn, that these torps’ propulsion systems had actually been replaced by the cryo tubes. Since Marcus was well aware of that, how could he possibly think his plan could work out? Because:
a) If Kirk had followed his orders and stayed on the Federation side of the Neutral Zone, then even normally-propelled torpedoes couldn’t have travelled far enough (at least according to the movie’s internal logic), right?
and
b) even though Kirk was a lot closer to Kronos than he should’ve been, the torps still wouldn’t have worked, as they had NO means of propulsion. Neither the usual nor some kind of experimental system.

Or did I simply get something wrong there? Sorry, but to me that point just made no sense.

97. boborci - May 15, 2013

76. philip – May 15, 2013

Hope your weekend is better:)

98. boborci - May 15, 2013

81. Exverlobter – May 15, 2013
How can the title of this film be Into Darkness with so many Lens-flares!

—-

cuz the theater is dark;)

99. Anaxagoras of the South - May 15, 2013

Folks, I’m 43. I watched reruns of TOS and TAS with my old man in the 70s and became a life-long Trekker. I’ve seen every movie on opening night. You better believe I’m going to be there tonight. There for the doubleheader starting in two hours. I own all the novels-from Blish’s to the Young Adult series-every comic written, the whole nine yards. Some of it was crap-Gold Key comics, I’m looking at you-and some of it was pure genius (ANYTHING Vonda McIntyre wrote-but it was all Trek. I’ve seen this in Star Wars fandom and it’s kind of sad. We divide ourselves up over small things and fail to realize that at least we’re getting some kind of outlet for our favorite series, an outlet we’re bloody lucky to have, considering how we’ve seen it die on multiple occasions. Is it ever perfect? No, of course it isn’t. But it’s Trek. And for that, I’m very, very grateful. Two more hours…

100. topas - May 15, 2013

@BobOrci (in context of @66.Karen)

You Sir, approving Karen’s comment had made my day. I was already super-hyped to see this in 2 weeks here (Poland) based just on what I’ve seen in the trailers’ footage (and reading all the spoilers, yeah I admit it), but even if I was expecting only a great space spectacle to behold and rewatch we’re about to get a multi-layered character driven story with a yet-unseen twist on the already established relationships? Great! Forget the E, forget the Vengeance and SanFran, now, I only want to see this to experience what Karen so brilliantly described :))

btw; a little bit late, but got to see the Pilot of Fringe, a series I knew of but ignored for some years. Some supreme quality writing there and I’ll be ordering the full 5 season set soon. Hats off for a TV experience unlike any before.

101. Hat Rick - May 15, 2013

I will be watching STID in 55 minutes! :)

The long wait is almost over!

102. NuFan - May 15, 2013

92

Of course you will.

103. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

I really liked the Klingons in this movie. Bat’leths and all. They seemed menacing again and also true to what they were supposed to be. The fact that Praxis is already gone makes them much more intense for the Star Trek fan because it indicates an already hightened Klingon military production some forty years before it happened in the prime universe.

I still hope the next movie will not be about a Klingon war. What I’d love to see would be both sides getting ready for the “inevitable” battle. Both sides looking for an advantage and a weakness. The Klingons might decide they need a missing piece of technology…. maybe a cloaking device… but I’m getting ahead of myself.

104. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 15, 2013

Bob Orci. I am now in the theater waiting for it to take me. Into Darkness.

105. Captain Dan - May 15, 2013

@boborci

Awesome job with the film. Seen it twice here in Oz, once in 2D and second in Imax 3D. Enjoyed it a lot more the second time around I’ll admit.

Really and pleasantly surprised at Nimoy’s appearance – no one talked about that, all the speculation was about Khan and stuff – that was a nice surprise. Some people above complained it’s a throwaway or a waste, but it was a nice touch. I kinda hope he’s not in the next movie though – otherwise how will our crew be able to stand on their own?

You probably don’t remember but I mentioned ages ago that if you could include a scene to rival the Enterprise rising out of Titan’s atmosphere in ’09 that would be great. We had a number of awesome scenes including her rising out of the Nibiru ocean, but the closest parallel was her coming out of the clouds (all beat up) – loved it! Also loved the transition from the Nibiru’s drawing the Enterprise on the ground to her flying through space :)

I did originally think the Kirk sacrifice scene and Spocks KHAAAAAN were too parallel and recognisable to TWOK – but I got over it ;)

Any chance we’ll see the models on Admiral Marcus’ desk for sale somewhere at some point? They looked great and the homage to the Phoenix, XCV330 Enterprise, NX-01, Kelvin and Vengeance were great!

I’d have loved some more battles, but I’m a pew pew space battle kinda guy. Maybe in the next one don’t have the Enterprise outgunned by something so big but maybe some fleet engagements. Enterprise didn’t stand a chance against Vengeance in this one and barely took on the Narada (though more successfully) in ’09 – I think she needs a chance to shine at some point. Also, nice touch with the slightly different Impulse engine layout at the end :) I’m glad there weren’t too many changes but most of all that there wasn’t an ‘-A’ on the end of the registry!

The ending leaves it open for some other Starfleet Admiral to crack open the tubes – will Khan and Cumberbatch return some day?

Really looking forward to what might develop with Carol Marcus on board. I’ve seen some great ideas being thrown around the interwebs about her and Kirk, providing for David this time whereas Kirk wasn’t on the scene for David in the ‘prime’ universe. But seeing the Marcus/Kirk relationship form around some sort of event for Trek XIII (or Trek 50?) will be interesting.

Huge thanks again, love your work (and the team you work with!)

Live Long and Prosper .\\//

106. Disinvited - May 15, 2013

#81. Exverlobter – May 15, 2013
How can the title of this film be Into Darkness with so many Lens-flares!

—-
#98. boborci – May 15, 2013
cuz the theater is dark;)

—-

Especially the dimly lit 3D ones!

107. Tom - May 15, 2013

Bob

For Trek 3

Not in the proper format Bob but here would be mywish list/Marching ordersfor 2016

Old , new borrowed and blue.

I think we should meet up with someone or something old from the original series to bookend this trilogy. This will also tie in to borrowed

We also should see something new to keep it fresh. Open canvas for great new stuff that the team will come up with

We also should see something borrowed from the original series. Example in that we will see something or someone familiar but not the same since in the alternate timeline , things can and do turn out differently. Talos 4, Guardian, Doomsday

Something blue. seems like there is always some kind of loss in the movies. We should feel a bit blue in that the film is so good we love the ending but want more

Last but not least I think we should finally see the original cast albeit briefly. just the surviving cast or simply a Shatner and Nimoy. Nimoy could close out his arc with either rebuilding Vulcan or going back to his timeline with some unfinished business on veridian 3. Leave the pendant to Quinto with the hologram scene to sum up the potential for Pine/Quinto

Possible??

108. Disinvited - May 15, 2013

# 96. KHAAAN the weasel – May 15, 2013

“…
b) even though Kirk was a lot closer to Kronos than he should’ve been, the torps still wouldn’t have worked, as they had NO means of propulsion. Neither the usual nor some kind of experimental system.

Or did I simply get something wrong there?” – KHAAAN the weasel

You mean besides forgetting what WWII bomber pilots already knew, i.e. inertia and gravity can be used to launch bombs onto stationary targets? But you are right about Marcus not having any reason to believe his orders would be effective beyond blowing up the E.

109. smegger56 - May 15, 2013

@boborci

I can’t help but say that this film had one of the most emotional scenes in Trek, and then was ruined. The Kirk death was just wow. Really well written, really well acted, but then was ruined by the way he was brought back to life.

IMO, if the scene didn’t play out like this was something final, I would have liked what had come after. But that scene was so well done, written as if it was final, that everything after felt like a kick in the teeth.

110. Nick - May 15, 2013

Bob, great work!

Taking a big step back I love the fact that Spock & Kirk’s relationship is now so advanced & everything feels ‘earned” & ready for the big adventure …

I found the Khan character really interesting, because at a certain point you almost wish he was (sort of) a good guy & could be a part of things to come in a good way … but that is quite rightly not possible.

I must say, coming up with the next story must be a challenge, needless to say I’m looking forward to that ‘mysterious’ HG Wells / Jules Verne atmosphere of exploration (what’s round the corner) as the background if we can …

Remember those mysterious matte paining from the original series on far-off bases on mysterious planets -love ‘em!

So, now I’m getting greedy … when is the next one due!?

(Don’t have to answer that, have a rest Bob).

111. smegger56 - May 15, 2013

@boborci

Please don’t misinterpret my last post as anything other than constructive.

112. drumvan - May 15, 2013

thanks boborci for hanging out and taking the heat (or praise). looking forward to my first viewing this friday night.

question: in your mind is the alternate timeline trying to heal itself or is it content to wander randomly on it’s new course? i ask this because it seems that there are moments you guys are developing that the old and new timelines cross each other. thus we get things like the twok reactor scene and khan that are common to both timelines yet slightly jumbled as they collide with each other.

thanks!

113. Unbel1ever - May 15, 2013

110. Nick – May 15, 2013

“I found the Khan character really interesting, because at a certain point you almost wish he was (sort of) a good guy & could be a part of things to come in a good way … but that is quite rightly not possible.”

That is one of the reasons I was disappointed at the Khan reveal, even though I suspected it was coming. If Harrison had turned out to be a guy doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, I would have loved to have seen the moral struggle for the Kirk and the Enterprise crew. He killed Pike after all.

114. Elvisbat - May 15, 2013

10 minutes before the Fan Sneak starts. Still excited.

All my best
Elvisbat

115. Jim, London - May 15, 2013

@boborci,

liked the film but promise me in the next film the Enterprise will at least face a ship its a match for…. And maybe beat?

116. porthoses bitch - May 15, 2013

I loved it…..and after reading all this negativity I am so glad Trekmovie didnt exist on 12/07/79.

My name is Porthos and I love Star Trek.

117. LtSheridan - May 15, 2013

Haven’t seen the movie yet but all I have to say is this: when seeing the trailers for both 2009 Trek and Into Darkness in the theaters, they were the only 2 Trek trailers that did not issue sporadic disparaging laughter from the audience…I think for the first time Trek is being taken seriously and to me this is a good thing.

118. Marsh1081 - May 15, 2013

Im at the big d imax in myrtle beach right now waiting for a 9oclock start and sadly the theater isnt even half full oh well doesnt take away from my excitment

119. Matthewbriggs - May 15, 2013

I’ve scene it 3 times and just couldn’t get the reactor scene out of my mind.!it was actually quiet a moving scene. BUT I found myself furious until I just read #66 comment. I can now safely say ID is my 4th favourite Star Trek.

Just 1 little nitpick about transwarp portable devices. May of missed something in the film or the film would of been very short

120. Hugh Hoyland - May 15, 2013

Yes! The time has come. Cant make the midnight showing (taking care of a sick parent and I live out in the middle of no where) But will make my way to a theater asap! :]

And it sounds like this may be the biggest Trek movie yet. Cant wait to see it!

121. Theatre Historian - May 15, 2013

The 3D looked amazing and the movie was visualy stunning in theatre 1 of the Chinese 6(we had 3 overflow houses for the premiere, in addition to Dolby which hosted the primary talent and crew.)

If only the movie could have premiered in Hollywood 2 weeks earlier before we closed for our renovations/IMAXinstallation in The Original Chinese Theatre. Would have looked and sound amazing in the main theatre.

122. Matthewbriiggs - May 15, 2013

@19 I ment portable transwarp transporter devices

123. fizzben - May 15, 2013

Ok, I’m a spoiler brat. I have yet to see the move but I’ve read about every spoiler filled post and review so far. As a life long (52 years) fan of star trek, I am still thrilled to see this movie. I’m not so beholden to the original stories to think they can’t be re-worked into something new and different. I’ll have more to say after I see it of course. But I haven’t seen a single Star Trek movie yet I havent had some quibbles with. Everything I’ve read so far tells me this is a very entertaining and fun film. Isn’t that what it’s all about? 48 hours before I go see the movie. Excited is an understatement.

124. KHAAAN the weasel - May 15, 2013

@108: Nah dude, it’s pretty clear that the Enterprise is not THAT close to Kronos. Of course inertia would theoretically suffice to propel the torps all the way to Kronos if there was an initial impulse (IF there was something like that, mind you – The E’s crew doesn’t know about the torps having no means of propulsion) – but in that case on one hand, the entire concept of torpedoes having some advenced propulsion system would’ve been a moot point, as it’s made pretty clear that normal torps would be ineffective at that range (probably because at such a low velocity they could be intercepted) and on the other hand: I guess the crew would noticed soon enough that the 72 torpedoes they just fired, were travelling through Klingon territory at a sluggish pace and felt that there was something fishy about that fact.
Buit see, that’s why I really hope that maybe BobOrci will have an answer (who knows, maybe the whole plothole was inexistent in the scripts original version and only BECAME a hole in the cutting room)

125. Stella 5000 - May 15, 2013

Orci, JJ, etc: Where’s the STID Fotonovel? :^)

126. KHAAAN the weasel - May 15, 2013

@108. Disinvited :
PS:
Please pardon my sloppy wording and bad typing, but I’m on the verge of falling asleep right now.

127. boborci - May 15, 2013

115. Jim, London – May 15, 2013

noted

128. boborci - May 15, 2013

109. smegger56 – May 15, 2013

fair

129. Anthony Lewis - May 15, 2013

Khan looks different because its a retcon…..GET OVER IT!

Star Trek has retconned itself as early as the TOS movies and it has continued on since then.

130. prthoses bitch - May 15, 2013

@125 hopefully it won’t be in black & White like the STTMP one was.

131. boborci - May 15, 2013

105 Captain Dan

I do remember!

132. Anthony Lewis - May 15, 2013

Also Sikh is a religion not a nationality. Any male who becomes a Sikh gets the name Singh (meaning Lion).

133. Backyard Enterprise - May 15, 2013

@66

Good explanation – some have commented about the lack of depth to the movie.
I think that as there is so much going on you almost don’t have time to absorb some important elements – such as Spocks struggle with emotions harking back to losing his Mother and planet.
It all comes to a head when he watches Kirk die and the yell of Khannnn makes sense to me in this situation.
So I say whats wrong with having to actually think about a characters situations and emotional responses rather than having it all spoon fed.
Loved the movie and looking forward to seeing it again.

134. boborci - May 15, 2013

112. drumvan – May 15, 2013
thanks boborci for hanging out and taking the heat (or praise). looking forward to my first viewing this friday night.

question: in your mind is the alternate timeline trying to heal itself or is it content to wander randomly on it’s new course? i ask this because it seems that there are moments you guys are developing that the old and new timelines cross each other. thus we get things like the twok reactor scene and khan that are common to both timelines yet slightly jumbled as they collide with each other.

thanks!

————-

Sort of. It’s not exactly that it is trying to heal itself and more a result of using Quantum Mechanics multiverse theory. In this theory, some universes are more probable than others. The ones that are more probable will tend to have more universes that resemble it.

135. JSM - May 15, 2013

The film… Looks fantastic.

Shot beautifully (lens flares aside!).

Fantastic cast (again!).

Please – get a different writer (not a team!) in next time. Trek needs to remain fresh. Somebody who’s (with all due respects) not a ‘geek’ writer… A proper seasoned writer of drama of all varieties. For ideas, goto some genuine science-fiction (not science-fantasy) writers.

For heaven’s sakes – new crew. New Trek era. A new universe to explore – let’s NOW see what’s out there. The posdibilities with today’s effects and 3D could be staggering, and EPIC!

Lets explore some new Frontiers of space, and really strange/freaky new worlds!

No character(s) out for revenge in the next film, no battles & damned explosions or reliance on any past Treks to ‘borrow’ story ideas from……

It’s a challenge, but isn’t that a good thing?

Dare you take Trek ‘out there. Thataway’ now?!………

136. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 15, 2013

Kirk, rather than Spock, dying is original. It is a great turn about. Karen’s explanation just makes so much sense.

Karen’s explanation also helps to explain Spock’s responses to Uhura’s overtures of affection – he seems puzzled (still only able to partially grasp the meaning and need to express affection…). Kirk had also told Spock earlier that, in spite of their differences, Kirk would miss having Spock around. He said this to Spock when the two men heard of Spock’s reassignment.

137. Captain Dan - May 15, 2013

131 @boborci

The second time I know you’ve replied to one of my posts – you sir are a legend :)

So I look forward to what you might have in store for the third instalment to rival 09 and ID :P haha!

Cheers, Dan

138. Aix - May 15, 2013

I didn’t care about the TWOK scene copy or not. I think it was well-made. My biggest disappointment is the villain. No, not because Cumberbatch is lame because “oh my!” he delivered the best performance in franchise history. But he could have been an entirely original creation and not be named Khan at all. I think that’s the wasted opportunity here. They could have just made him John Harrison, a character with the simplest name and still the most bad-ass. Now, that is memorable!

Or… since they’re planning to use him again in the next movie, they could have saved the big reveal there. That no matter what universe, no matter what timeline… Kirk will always encounter Khan.

I know. I know, it’s no good comparing but it’s like we had Ledger’s Joker in Cumberbatch’s Khan but we didn’t get the The Dark Knight of the franchise.

Still enjoyed it!

139. commmander diaz - May 15, 2013

How is it possible that the ENTERPRISE and VENGEANCE battle it out just above earth and no one in starfleet seems to notice?

140. Coastie - May 15, 2013

You know what I can’t stand — that in The Dark Knight they cast an Australian to play the Joker when the original was clearly an Italian/Cuban American. I mean, Nicholson is also part Italian, so I can deal with that, but an Australian in The Dark Knight?????

Seriously people, relax. I have blond hair and blue eyes and my last name is Hispanic. I hope none of you would wig out about that as you are with BC playing Khan.

141. Aix - May 15, 2013

Also, I now get Shatner’s “bitterness”. Because when I left the cinema, the thing I remembered first was the villain (that’s a given to any movie I think), then Spock (because come on! he’s a truly memorable character) then the ladies, then Scotty because he’s funny, then the effects.

In retrospect, Pine was really great in this. And this is essentially his movie. But he’s overshadowed by more interesting elements.

Oh well.

142. David Oakes - May 15, 2013

@Bob Orci – So….

2016 : ” Where No One Has Gone Before..”

It will be the 50th anniversary of the titular episode too & the film series is up to the start of the five year mission chronologically so it all makes sense.

143. smegger56 - May 15, 2013

128 @boborci ‘Fair’

(reply to 109 smegger56)

Thank you. There are some more quibbles I have, dare I say, but this film is still fun and exciting. Some of the banter between characters is just amazing.

I am counting down the days now till ST3 (or ST13).

I think it’s so cool that you come here to respond to fans. It is much appreciated (and bloody awesome too) :-)

144. Robert Saint John - May 15, 2013

Star Trek Into Darkness: PERFECT. I will be seeing it again, many times!! If you are planning on seeing it, READ NOTHING, see it ASAP, avoid all spoilers! It was a love letter to fans of my generation.Star Trek Into Darkness: PERFECT. I will be seeing it again, many times!! If you are planning on seeing it, READ NOTHING, see it ASAP, avoid all spoilers! It was a love letter to fans of my generation.

145. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 15, 2013

Why a new crew? We are just starting to get to know this crew. The fact remains is that we never really got to know much about any of the original seven – just fragments here and there. We just need this alternate TOS crew going where they have not been before.

146. John D - May 15, 2013

YEEESSSS!!!!!!

147. Jeff O'Connor - May 15, 2013

Just saw it.

Phenomenal.

148. The Observer - May 15, 2013

Easily the best of the features to date. I was surprised that the “message” and themes of the film were much more timely and bold than the very, very safe and somewhat late “messages” of previous Treks.

I won’t compare it to entire tv series’ because I’m not a colossal nerd who only shows up on Trek sites to demand the old canon be obeyed again. But, in comparison to the other movies? Yeah, very much the best.

149. boborci - May 15, 2013

147 Jeff

148 The Observer

Thank you for going!

150. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 15, 2013

Yes, I agree with a critic’s comments a week or so back who called Chris Pine the movie’s “hidden gem” (or something like that).

Chris Pine – YOU ARE AWESOME as James T Kirk – better than in the first movie of this Trek movie series.

I am sure many would love to know how Jim Kirk just manages to get up yet again after being punched and kicked so many times – not a sign of a limp, no apparent bruising, just wee bit of bleeding – nothing major… I think Anthony Pascale could be right – this Kirk is a little bit superhuman…;)

Mind you, sometimes the worst bruising takes time to appear – me thinks that it is time the Enterprise found Menosia and nulis…what do ya think, Bob Orci? Not before time is what I think.

151. Clinton - May 15, 2013

I need to see it again before I rate it. That happens Saturday.

152. somethoughts - May 15, 2013

You delievered boborci, I salute you.

I loved it!!!

I really love how you touch on some great themes, friendship, mortality, cost of revenge and the morality and ethics play of the man hunt.

I wanted epic, check
I wanted omg scenes, check
I wanted moral play and ethical dillema, check
I wanted logic vs risk, check

I wanted Khan, check, you listened, high fives!!!

A++ 4.5/5

I want stid to make over 600mil and you guys deserve all the awards and accolades, congrats again!

153. Capt Sanders - May 15, 2013

I, as one of the biggest nit pickers of them all have one thing to say as I arrive home from my local imax……..holy shit, what a movie!!!!!

154. Captain Matteo - May 15, 2013

Even BETTER than the the last film. It was fast-paced, exciting, full of surprises and interesting “familiar” twists. TERRIFIC!!!!!

155. Moputo Jones - May 15, 2013

As someone who was not a big fan of ST09 and has not loved any JJ movies except for “Super 8″, this movie has completely flipped me on the JJverse and JJ and team as moviemakers. I would ask anyone who saw the spoilers and was turned off by re-using Khan to give this move a chance. STID has “heart” and the feeling of “real” Star Trek.

156. Clinton - May 15, 2013

Forgot to add that I think it was a gutsy move to play the Khan card. And it was a pleasant spin on that story. I also felt like they addressed several points raised after the first movie: Gee, Kirk got the captain’s seat too fast, didn’t he? Why doesn’t Spock Prime just give them all the answers? How would TOS stories play out in the alternate universe (after all, Khan, V’ger, etc. are still all out there)? I’m kind of glad they tackled that head on.

157. Moputo Jones - May 15, 2013

#148: I concur – it is the best Star Trek movie. It has the budget that Star Trek always should have had plus the “morality play” that many of us thought was lacking in ST09.

158. Bob Flanders - May 15, 2013

@boborci

I haven’t seen it yet. I don’t mind spoilers, and I am sure I will enjoy the film.

A few years ago, I suggested that you have a khan movie where Spock fixes the warp drive and dies. When Kirk gets there, it’s Spock. Prime. This time for good.

Did you ever read that idea? Hmm?

:)

Thanks for your hard work and dedication. Don’t let the nitpickers get you down.

Regards,
Bob Flanders

159. Travis - May 15, 2013

Beyond the DARKNESS, Beyond the Human Evolution lies Khan! A Genetically Engineered Tyrant!

So who is really the villain of Into Darkness? The man who runs Section 31, The man who found the Botany Bay ( possibility near the Mutara Sector ), The man who woke up Khan Noonien Singh, took Khan back to Earth, gave him a Starfleet Commission with rank of Commander…. That man is Admiral Alexander Marcus!

People are right that Khan doesn’t feel like the villain but a man who wants to make a new life with his 72 survivors but with Admiral Marcus using Khan’s people against him to do Marcus’s bidding… I can not only feel bad but I can side with Khan by how he feels! Very good story indeed!!!

160. drapera - May 15, 2013

104

I am assuming you are watching the new Star Trek movie…not some movie in “one of those” theaters?

They way you worded your message was just asking for this…

161. Justin Olson - May 15, 2013

67. boborci – May 15, 2013:

“We did, however, consider and conceive of the story without K in mind. If you think about it, he could’ve revealed his name was Schmuko with a slightly different back story (super criminal from Federation jail, etc…) and that Marcus used him by threatening other people he cared about (family instead of crew) and the story still stands.”

————————————————————————————————–

Well, forgive me for saying this, but why make him Khan then? You admit that the story you and your co-writers came up with still worked (and was in fact conceived!) without the antagonist actually being Khan, yet you all decided to go with the Khan reveal anyway. Why? Was that insistence by the studio? Khan’s name isn’t used in any of the advertising so I’m guessing that’s unlikely.

It just seems wrongheaded to me. If you’re going to use Khan, use him because the story absolutely demands it — it can’t possibly be anyone else.

Bennett, Sowards and Meyer didn’t just drop Khan into a preconceived story that was flexible enough to accommodate anyone, there was a very specific dramatic and thematic purpose to it. But as you say, the antagonist in your story could’ve been called Schmucko and your story would still stand with minor back story tweaks.

So how did making him Khan improve the film? This movie (like the last) seems primarily aimed at a younger audience that has very little familiarity with TOS, who have never seen “Space Seed” or “Wrath of Khan.” Was it just done merely as a wink to the fans? Is that all it is?

162. Critch - May 15, 2013

Fantastic, wonderful, insert adjective here. Just a non-stop thrill ride from beginning to end that never let up. Nice homages, funny, and excited about the hints dropped where they’re going next.

Thank you Boborci! Here’s to another huge success!

163. You're Dead, Jim - May 15, 2013

I just saw it with two friends, one a sort of trekkie and the other I’m not sure. They both enjoyed it and so did I. I did see some of the nitpicks already mentioned but they didn’t interfere with our experience. I can find little things like that in all of the ST movies. It’s all Star Trek to me and I’m glad it’s still alive.

164. Jeff - May 15, 2013

I saw Chris Hemsworth (George Kirk) and Jennifer Morrison (Winona Kirk) in the credits but not in the film. Late deleted scene?

165. Punkspocker - May 15, 2013

Just saw it. Some of the complaints really befuddle me. I thought it was the best Trek movie ever! And I’m an old Trekkie, just sayin. So glad they brought back the Beastie Boys!

166. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 15, 2013

@164. Jeff

You hear their voices ‘in the black’ while Kirk is finally regaining consciousness.

167. MIKE - May 15, 2013

Just seen it in Washington DC KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

168. filmboy34 - May 15, 2013

@BobOrci,

Much has been made and discussed regarding Khan’s blood and its restorative properties. The fact that Khan’s blood has this ability really has changed profoundly the world of the 23rd century. Now if someone dies all you have to do is get them into stasis quickly and use the blood from Khan or one of his comrades. Then presto, they are alive again.

Now that is not a criticism of the choice you, Alex, and Damon made in the film in regards to Khan’s blood. It is just by introducing this idea you kind of paint yourself into a corner a bit, didn’t you? Now there is the ability for loved ones not to die and I would imagine for them to live healthier lives than before.

I wanted to ask you if you had considered this when you decided to go in that direction and if so, how did you think you will handle it in future films?

I mean certainly you could have Kirk and crew keep the details of his “resurrection” a secret. You could have Starfleet classify the whole thing. Or you could have Khan and his men be lost, much like the Ark of the Covenant was at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Anyway, I thought since you were kind enough to pop in that I would ask about this.

Thanks!

169. Clinton - May 15, 2013

@166 Nice catch! I’ll pay more attention to that next time!

170. Aix - May 15, 2013

“It’s all Star Trek to me and I’m glad it’s still alive.”
-you’re dead, jim

Preach!!!

171. Dr Redshirt - May 15, 2013

@ boborci
Just got back from the movie. Loved it. It seems to me that this whke movie was both Kirk and Spocks real Kobiashi Maru test, to get them ready before they can go on the real 5 yr mission…
Where was the rest of the fleet??? We’re they still engaged in the Laurentian System???

172. boborci - May 15, 2013

161. The details became too juicy to avoid. Genetic super man from a time that understood war and savagery, etc. Once we had a basic structure that did not necessarily necessitate him, we were able to tailor the script itself to details and inspirations that he brought.

173. Enterprise Ensign #4 - May 15, 2013

I’ve been a fan of Trek since I was a kid. I was lucky enough to have my childhood dream of being a crew member on the Enterprise fulfilled when I was ensign #4 in “Trials and Tribble-ations”. Having just seen the premier of “Into Darkness” I have to say that I am pleased overall. I LOVED all of the little touches – the model of NX-01 on the desk as well as the Enterprise as seen in the painting in the Enterprise Rec Dec on TMP. I’m sure that there are aL LOT more things like this that I missed, but will hopefully catch on repeat viewings. It’s hard for the producers to do what they do. They can not please everyone as that’s just an impossibility. But, with that said, I think that they have done a fantastic job. Was I disappointed that it was Khan… at first I was, and a part of me still is just a bit. I loved what they did with the character and think that Cumberbatch did a brilliant acting job, but would have liked to have seen someone totally original. However, I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the Spock Prime scene. Funny how that was completely under the radar. Keep up the good work Bob Orci and the gang. I hope you all do as well or better with the next film! Bravo!

174. britboy - May 15, 2013

Well I just got back fro finally seeing the movie….and wow. Loved it. It was a great popcorn movie, a great drama story, and a great emotional tale. The actors all seem to work so well together, the idea of family and friendship is palpable on screen. The writing too I thought was well constructed and thoughtful. Im sure most people could take a critical eye to the movie and say ‘ hey, Enterprise being chased by a big ship again’ and ‘hey, someone making the ultimate sacrific again to save the ship’ but I say ‘hey, go enjoy the movie!” Its a great movie with a heart and a soul and it delivers. After 50 years Star Trek is going to repeat a few themes now and again, and it has done so throughout its history. Complaining Leonard Nimoy is on the screen?? What a joy to see him play Spock one more time. A real treat, that added gravitas none-the-less.

A fab team have put a lot of time and effort (and money) into our beloved franchise, and I for one love the results, and the chance to go see the universe expand again. Thank you Team JJ, thank you Bob Orci. Hoping for a less of a wait for the next one though please, four years was awfully long…

175. boborci - May 15, 2013

168. We did think about that, but we figured there are so many horrible ways to die in space that no medicine could save you from that we would be okay.

176. Enterprise Ensign #4 - May 15, 2013

Oh, and for the next film, if you need another gold shirt on the ship… =)

177. Dennis Bailey - May 15, 2013

Fantastic, awesome movie.

Ricardo *who*?

178. boborci - May 15, 2013

158. Bob Flanders – May 15, 2013

I do remember that, but Spock Prime dying once is plenty!!!!;)

179. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 15, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. Just hot back from seeing Star Trek. Great movie. I knew all along that John was khan. But knowing that did not dampen my love for the movie.

180. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 15, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. Have you and the court started to pitch ideas about the next Star Trek Movie.

181. Crone - May 15, 2013

Saw it, enjoyed it – my only caveat is that I wish it had been slowed down just a bit- would have loved more character scenes. Again, thanks to Mr. Orci et. al for keeping these characters alive and flying. I have enjoyed these folks since 1966 and I hope I will be enjoying them for the rest of my life.

Thanks again.

PS my adult trekkie daughter was mad that it was Khan, but said ” At least we don’t have to sit through Star Trek 3 , The Search For Kirk”

182. Dennis Bailey - May 16, 2013

One thing I’m not clear on, boborci – Marcus talks as if he knew all along that Khan had hidden his people in the torpedoes. What, then, was the point in loading them aboard the Enterprise? Kirk couldn’t even have fired a bunch of Khansicles at Kronos, given that the passengers had displaced the fuel cells. And why all 72?

What did I miss?

183. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 16, 2013

One of the things I did like was seeing Spock and Khan fighting. Khan has 5 times the strength. While Spock has 2.

184. The Trekman - May 16, 2013

178. boborci

First of all I just love the fact that you’ve been very active in this community. It was always awesome to see you in the comments and as an amateur screenwriter, I hope to one day be in your position writing Star Trek for a living.

Second, I just saw the film even though I loved it and I thought it was an awesome film, I was very disappointed in the revelation that Harrison was Khan. Now while Cumberbatch did an excellent job in his performance, he was not Khan. He did not have the suave and charm that Montalban’s Khan had and when you compare the two, they are as night and day.

My biggest disappointment is that you guys passed up a missed big opportunity for an awesome twist: for a post credit scene, you go back to the chamber with all the cryo tubes and focus on a tube next to the one Cumberbatch is in to reveal Montalban’s face.

Since the twist that John Harrison was Khan was not one of the best kept secrets ever, having it revealed that Cumberbatch’s character lied to Kirk and Marcus that he was Khan would have been a much better twist!

Aside of that, I loved all the other references and call backs to early and props to including the XCV 330 whose idea was that?

185. number6 - May 16, 2013

Ok. Saw the film. Loved it. Although I am certainly in the “Why do we need to do Khan?” camp. Star Trek has such a deep palate of movie worthy antagonists: The Talosians, Garth of Izar, Trelane, Charlie, Gary Mitchell, and even space itself, all of which would be great original fresh things to play with from the TOS universe because we know less about those things than we do about Khan.

Ok.. That said, I totally got a lot of the things that Karen’s #66 post eloquently described and I guessed at the same Orci answers on other things like the ship being under water and the whole bit with needing Khan’s blood, and he himself explained it in a very “in universe” way.

I really liked how they made Harrison’s Khan more like the original series badass Khan we loved in Space Seed, versus crazy old man Khan we got in TWOK. Thank you for that!

The interplay between the characters basically nails what we got in TOS, albiet at a more modern pace. Those moments tug at the very same heart strings.

Old Spock was a surprise, but it seems only too easy to have the young Enterprise crew ask old Spock for advice when things get real.

I loved the sacrifice reversal as your homage to TWOK, though I thought Spock yelling Khaaaaaaaan was wicked campy. I love/hate it.

I also loved the Section 31 name drop, the NX-01 model on the Admiral’s desk, and the fact that Marcus is really the one we should be worried about.

The pace was perfect. I couldn’t care less about “lens flares.” If that “ruins” a film for some people, they need to get out a little more. The film looked amazing.

I think the most harshest criticisms are coming from the same people who weren’t cool with a reboot to begin with. May there be many grains of salt taken.

@Orci, et al..
I understand why you probably needed or wanted to do Khan anyway (Duh..it WILL sell tickets) and I like the Nu ‘Verse spin on it. A lot.

Don’t take another 4 years to make another one. You’re on a roll!!

186. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 16, 2013

Ok Bob Orci. Next movie. Make it an original.

187. Val Jean - May 16, 2013

@ boborci

if you could PLEASE answer this question it would be great, its not always you get to hear the people behind the movie explain something to a fan!

Did you deliberately tone down the space combat/scenes for the international audience?

I know you wanted to crew to solve problems without the ship maybe, stand on their own two feet etc, but as Anthony mentioned, the enterprise gets short changed in this movie, i mean she doesn’t fire a single shot!!

Also, why are the distances in space so small? A few seconds from the klingon homeworld to Earth? beaming from planet to planet? Is there a point to a 5 year mission? =D

Cheers Bob!

188. Stella 50000 - May 16, 2013

130 – PB: It was WOK that was the B&W Fotonovel and boy was I pissed when I got it from the bookclub at school. It was blurry and looked photocopied.

The ST:TMP was in amazing color, still have it in mint condition.
As well as the 12 TOS ones.

LLAP

189. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 16, 2013

Need the next movie to come out in 3 years to cover the 50th anniversary of Star Trek.

190. Fansincesixtynine - May 16, 2013

@Bob Orci. A wonderful trip with lifelong friends. I’m glad to see they are well, and their posterity is in good hands. THANK YOU SIR.

191. Stan - May 16, 2013

You know what? Loved the references, loved the way they tied Khan into the movie. The theater that I was at was so quiet that you could hear a pin drop during the Kirk dear scene, even though most of us knew it was coming.

I have but one nit. The alien ship that they used to get to Kronos. That got explained away in 30 seconds of exposition while running. A bit of a shortcut IMO. Maybe a better option was that Section 31 had developed a cloaking device and Admiral Marcus gave Kirk a small warp ship with a cloaking device along with 72 torpedoes.

I need to see it again, if only to hear the sound effects during the brig scene. Very nice touch.

192. Philip - May 16, 2013

@ BobOrci, Thanks for the good weekend wishes sir. I’m certain I’ll go into the weekend uplifted and distracted after seeing Into Darkness. Very kind of you to even respond.

193. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 16, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. What was your inspiration to have the movie be about Khan

194. Enterprise Ensign #4 - May 16, 2013

I also loved the line regarding Mudd’s ship and having read the Countdown to Darkness comics, I know what they’re referring to! LOVED IT!

195. Granite Trek - May 16, 2013

As i posted in a non-spoiler area, Star Trek Into Darkness was awesome! Better than the first for sure. Lots of little nods to fans of other Trek shows (including prominent ones to fans of DS9 and Enterprise) but you didn’t need to get them to enjoy the movie. Far more humor than I expected and they really are homing in on the character relationships we fans loved in the original series. All wrapped up in slam bang action that a big budget provides. Were a couple of scenes lifted from elsewhere? Yes, deliberately, and with a twist that sheds light on the character relations from a different perspective. Could it have been more original? Absolutely. But I wound up not minding, and look forward to the next one. Oh, far less lens flares, but there was one that did get majorly annoying in one scene.

to add in this spoiler area, the Nimoy scene gave young Spock an idea of how dangerous Khan really was and how to defeat him. I think BC’s Khan was frankly more dangerous than the original – more manipulative, more intelligent (this Khan didn’t think in two dimensions). A leader not just by physical intimidation but by the same qualities Kirk has. And I absolutely loved the message at the end – we must not forget who we were, nor who we should be. Very current. I don’t get why some dont understand that the re-use of the scenes from Twok were a tool to look at the Kirk – Spock relationship from Spocks perspective, and also to show us where it stands versus TWOK – that in a short time these two men have formed a deep and unlikely friendship, as deep as it would be 50 years later. Old Spock said he wanted young Kirk and Spock to learn for themselves the value of their friendship, and here it shows they have, finally, apparently too late. This event bonds them in the way we see in TOS and beyond. As for including Khan at all, TWOK itself is to blame for making Khan, among all the baddies in TOS, into Kirk’s Joker or Lex Luthoe, by giving Khan that prominence. So why not use him again?

196. Jeff - May 16, 2013

“Is there anything you would not do for your family?” The ‘father’ betrays starfleet to save his daughter, Khan helps starfleet to save his followers/family and Kirk is willing to sacrifice himself to save the only family he has left. Focus on the message of the movie and all the nitpicking is meaningless. Well done to all involved.

197. BeyondtheTech - May 16, 2013

Wife loved it, she’s not a Trekkie. I loved it, I’m a Trekkie.

More than what I bargained for, more than what I expected, given all the spoilers I read. That being said, it was worth the wait.

Was there a post-credits scene? It was a packed theater and wife wanted to leave before the crowd.

198. Darryl Gaona - May 16, 2013

Bob. Just thank you. Saw it tonight, loved it. Taking my three kids 8,7, and 6 to see it Saturday. Thank you for letting a single father share something special with my kids. They can’t wait….

Just have to make sure to slip in space seed and TWOK Friday night as a mini marathon…..and play dumb as to why those choices…

199. toasteroven - May 16, 2013

Going to watch it at release (in Canada) tomorrow night (May 16).

Just wanted to say to boborci, and feel free to pass it along to JJ; I’ve read every spoiler, seen every clip, got the music off the radio show. Knowing the “reveal”, basic plot, etc… does not dilute the desire to watch it any less, only makes me want to see it that much more.

200. Patio furniture - May 16, 2013

Omg so many comments but yes I did love it and Dirty Harrys review is also spot on

201. AyanEva - May 16, 2013

My initial verdict after the fan sneak tonight: Much better film than the 2009 film, which was previously my favorite Trek film, despite it’s notable flaws. So I guess that means that Star Trek Into Darkness is now my favorite Star Trek film and I voted in the poll to reflect this. The story is very tight and contained and the characters are used really well for the most part.

I went with three other people tonight: One is a DS9 fan, the other two are casual fans. Two of us- me and the DS9 fan- felt STID was superior to 2009 without question, one of the casual fans liked the film but felt 2009 was better, and the other casual fan really liked both equally because she felt they both were good in their own ways. The person who liked 2009 better agreed with me when I said that 2009 movie had more of a sense of adventure and wonder and it’s that element that she missed.

A few quick observations before heading to bed, since I’ve gotta work in the AM and I just walked in the door from the movie.

-I love how they’ve retooled the Klingons. They’re appropriately dangerous and feel like formidable enemies again, which they should at this point in time.

-Benedict was FANTASTIC. He was simultaneously sympathetic and horrifying (in terms of his brutality and ruthlessness) and absolutely a credible and terrifyingly destructive threat. Holy crap, the fight scenes! The leg stomp! The skull crush! GOOD GOD. My buddy and I are very involved movie-goers so fortunately this fan sneak wasn’t too full because we were pretty loud. Shrieking and wild exclamations. We had BLAST watching this movie.

-IMAX 3D is THE way to watch this film! WOW! The visuals were amazing and I had to stop by the end of it and catch my breath, no lie. Just an exhilarating ride that is non-stop moving from one thing to another but does so without sacrificing some very poignant moral and ethical debates and character moments- and it’s those deeper elements that really made this film feel like Star Trek to me. These were missing in 2009 and the fact that they’re present in STID and handled really well makes all the difference in the world to me. I mean, the 2009 film felt like Star Trek but in a different way. I just really enjoyed the greater depth of STID.

-Love the character interactions, the tension created by this crew that is really trying to settle in and sort out who they are as individuals and as a team. Very effective and I really, really loved this. It really added to the movie.

-Chris Pine was awesome and did a great job of conveying Kirk’s uncertainty and you really experienced these challenges and obstacles along with him.

-Peter Weller did a great job and Admiral Marcus was deliciously awful. What a massive tool! I could at least sympathize with Khan, even if his methods were appalling. Marcus had no redeeming qualities in the end and he started the whole mess anyway. At least Khan had a good reason to go rampaging and there was a reasonable goal in mind. I mean, I would’ve been ticked off too, ya know?

I’ll revisit my opinion after a few more viewings before I settle on a final verdict but my first impression is that this is my favorite Star Trek movie so far and the team did an amazing job on it. It’s not the most exciting in terms of physical adventuring but it wins on the basis of how they explore these individuals and their relationships in a larger context that is very relevant today. I’m excited to see it again tomorrow night and Saturday! And possibly Friday but I haven’t decided yet. Maybe Monday too since I now have that day off.

I’m definitely gonna go for my goal of 12 times in the theater. I wouldn’t mind sitting through it 12 times. It’s an excellent film, IMO.

OK so that wasn’t as short as I’d intended.

202. Josh B - May 16, 2013

Bob,

Great movie! Kudos to your team. But please, please, PLEASE give us some epic space battle scenes with phasers and stop it with the turret-type Star Warsy weapons.

I do however LOVE the new warp detail! Can’t wait for 2015…

203. The Sisko - May 16, 2013

Jack Sowards should get a writing credit. Very Derivative. Good but disappointing at the same time.

204. Dennis C - May 16, 2013

On a 4 star scale this one gets **1/2 from me.

My wife enjoyed it a bit more than I did but my biggest gripe with the film was the pacing. We’re given little time absorb some big moments in the film and I started to wonder what dinner must be like at JJ Abrams’ house:

Before you finish your salad he brings out dinner and before you have a chance to get through half of your dinner your plate is removed and dessert is served. In the midst of a conversation you’re suddenly interrupted to move on to the next topic and then, before you know it, the evening is over. The food was good and the evening never dull but you leave hungry and left feeling a little empty after a visit filled with moments that you never truly had time to absorb.

205. trek nyc - May 16, 2013

Just saw film in nyc. AMAZING! Simply outstanding! STID ranks as one of the best!
As a child in grade school, I remember seeing wrath of kahn at the theater and all the “epic” films of the late 70′s into 80′s that made such an impact on my generation (star wars, indiana jones, star trek…) and now with STID…I haven’t seen such a good movie in years! Can’t wait to see it again!
I don’t wish to look for flaws…I went to suspend reality and leap into the fantasy world of the film…It surpassed my expectations. STID…was just tremendous!
I laughed, cried, cheered…thank you for a really thrilling time!

206. JimJ - May 16, 2013

Best Star Trek movie ever, by far…..and I am a 46 year old die hard tos fan. Critics, go ahead and rip me, but in todays world, this movie will be the new standard (as twok was before it). Freakin awsome, orci & co.

207. AyanEva - May 16, 2013

One last thing:

The death scene TWOK homage… eh yeah that didn’t really work for me. Kirk’s dying went on a little too long but there was some great dialogue there so I’ll forgive it. His actual moment of death was excellent and very poignant. But Spock yelling, “KHAAAAAAAN!!!!” took me right out of the film, even though it was perfectly in context. My movie buddy and I burst out into peals of laughter and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the intent of the writers. LOL It was just so over the top and came off more like someone doing a parody of the shouting/dying scene so it was hilarious instead of intense.

That’s my only major complaint with the film. That one sequence was just a bit too much. It would have worked much better without the, “KHAAAAAN!!!” shout.

208. Dr Redshirt - May 16, 2013

Bob, Can you talk about the bald bridge crew member who looks like an android.

209. JimJ - May 16, 2013

#205, agreed!!!

210. Dr. Cheis - May 16, 2013

I can’t figure out why they even put in the robot-like guy. He seems to raise continuity issues and contributes nothing to the plot.

I was excited to see references to the video game and comics though! Looks like they’re going to be “pretty much canon” from now on.

211. Ann - May 16, 2013

I happened to see the first Star Trek episode ever aired “Mantrap” , and was hooked . So I really am a long time fan . Thank you STID team you sure hit it out of the ball park.I just hope the next Trek movie is not a long wait!
Thanks for the awesome movie Bad Robot!!!

212. Johnd - May 16, 2013

@boborci Thanks for taking the time to answer questions!

I’m a bit confused about the father that Harrison gets to blow up the archives/research lab in London. Given that his daughter just woke up, why kill himself?

Regarding the first half of the film and the pursuit of Harrison to Kronos, I loved the strong moral theme you raised. Was the issue of targeted killing of terrorists in your mind when you conceived it?

Also on the first exterior shot of Kronos, was that Praxis in the background? I thought I saw a half-destroyed moon.

And finally, my biggest gripe. If, as you admit (and I agree), the story would have stood on its own without Harrison = Khan…why go there? Were you determined to include Khan, or was that something you decided to drop in after coming up with a killer dark-side-of-Starfleet story?

213. bjdcharlie - May 16, 2013

I’m in Chicago and just returned 11pm from IMAX for the first fan preview showing. Haven’t had time to read a single comment above, so I’m unbiased. I knew the biggest spoiler going in, so I kept hope.

The film was good. Excellent action. Ungainly storytelling. A few stunning pieces of cinematography and the use of silence, and pauses. Then mostly a downhill rush of remarkable action. Visually very exciting. Pine and Pegg shine. Scoring was very background. Sound effects in IMAX was thunderous and subtle and awesome.

Battle-in-warp scene simply incredible, as well as crash to SF.

The remake of WOK scenes was a big disappointment. Who threw up their hands and said “let’s just use the khan character damn it and get on with it”. There seemed to be no raison d’etre to the Khan character, could have just as well have been a John Harrison….? At least it wouldn’t have been so jarring to see a white Sikh was purportedly of northern Indian descent, a prince. BC was a scoundrel and masochist but thats about it, none of the mystery or appeal or romance of the space seed khan. A waste, really. I’m really sorry to sound so negative but that’s how I feel.

Such a carelessness of the few, letting down the many who brought elements of brilliance to this picture.

I will see this film several more times, and I hope it makes a lot of money and keeps the franchise going, and gets it back on television where it plays best, with a more deliberate and less confusing telling of story without explosions every five minutes. It’s the screenplay guys.

214. Crumbs - May 16, 2013

Wow, boborci is trying to defend the WOK ending ripoff by suggesting a fan to say its the same thing with a straight face?

Seriously?

This movie is terrible. I didnt mind ST09, but this movie was a waste. The production values are great, the actors are fine, but come up with somethng original. Its fan fiction at best, and it seemed like I was watching a ST parody at times…..some cringe inducing moments.

And then there is still the crap about transporting great distances and such…terrible. Its lazy writing before and its the same thing again.

Sorry…its just simply bad.

215. Shark - May 16, 2013

I really loved this movie! I saw it in 3D, which I normally hate, and it really worked for this film. It might have been a little rushed in places, but they still somehow found time to develop many of the relationships, it’s really exciting seeing these characters come into their own.

I disagree with a lot of people who’ve been saying the TWOK inspired scenes are “unoriginal.” I definitely felt them more as an homage and it was exciting to see them on the big screen with a twist. (Also love @boborci’s explanation of the multiverse theory).

My biggest quibble was with the tech stuff like the Vengeance catching the Enterprise in warp in firing on it…is there some warp field mechanics experts who can explain this? And also the transwarp beaming stuff…I know it was set up in the last movie, but I still find it hard to believe after years of watching delicate transporter instances in all the series.

In regards to some other nitpicks- the natives didn’t see the Enterprise on the way into the ocean because it came in during night and could have easily submerged way off shore then moved closer, they had to use Khan’s (magic) blood because all the rest of the were frozen (was waiting for Bones to call the one he took out of stasis Joachim).

Also, my two friends, one a TNG/VOY fan and the other not much of Trek fan at all LOVED it. Great work @boborci and everyone involved!

216. johnd - May 16, 2013

In the first exterior shot of Kronos, was that Praxis we saw all broken up?

217. Hat Rick - May 16, 2013

I just got back and I must say, what a beautiful film! I really love the treatment of Wrath of Khan in this film, sort of a loving tribute with a sense of how things are different, and yet the same, in this new universe of Trek.

You know, I love the future that Trek depicts, and I love the wonderful affirmation of the greatness of the human spirit.

I love that Spock (I used to call him NuSpock, but I’ll just call him Spock from now on) was utterly truthful about certain things — about Pike’s fear upon dying — and yet so utterly deceitful when he needed to be. I love it, I love the twists, and I love that these writers know exactly what it takes to push my buttons as a Trek fan.

The philosophy of Trek is part of what sets it apart. The all-encompassing belief in the greatness of humanity — this is what really MATTERS to me. It really does.

Bravo to those responsible for this magnificent movie. It has everything a Trek movie should have.

I shall treasure this movie and remember it as a hallmark of fine story-telling.

In other words:

Good on you! :-)

Also, Anthony: You were right all along.

P.S.: The way that Admiral Marcus died reminded me of Blade Runner and how one of the replicants took revenge upon his maker.

Amazing stuff. I will see this movie again and again and again….!

218. gary starr - May 16, 2013

If the next film is the five year mission a thought occurs. If you can get to the heart of klingon space in what seems like 23 seconds where in the universe are you going that takes five years?

219. JimJ - May 16, 2013

Crumbs: I totally disagree. I thought it was an ingenous way to tie the alternate universe trek to the prime universe. Totally in character for Kirk to save his ship. Great homage to the original without rehashing it for too long. People gotta stop thinking this alternate iniverse plays by the same rules as the prime universe. Think what you want, but if they were gonna do Khan again (& u knew that was gonna happen someday), then this was a brilliant way to do it. Also, for those complaining….how silly is it to say Khan has to ne of a particular decent. This movie was awesome!

220. johnd - May 16, 2013

@boborci Thanks for taking the time to answer questions!

In London, why did the father kill himself by blowing up the archive/weapons development lab so soon after his daughter got better?

Tell us a bit about the genesis of breaking the story…did it begin with the rogue admiral seeking war plot or was Khan the starting point?

221. Hat Rick - May 16, 2013

199, you are in Canada as well? So am I. I saw it yesterday (May 15) at the 9:00 p.m. showing, Eastern Time. I guess I was just one of the lucky ones! I have never seen a Trek movie in advance of general release!

I was surprised that it was showing one day in advance! This is the absolute earliest I have ever seen a Trek film, and I make it a rule to see all Trek films no later than the day it premieres!

It was in RealD (3D) and I loved every second of it.

After four years, finally — sweetness and light (not darkness). Trek, you are awesome. :-)

222. JimJ - May 16, 2013

Hat Rick: I agree 100%. Sorry about my previous typos. Doing these posts on a cell phone.

223. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

loved the film bob!

few questions;

1) Why didn’t Admiral Marcus just go after Khan himself with the USS Vengence? He wanted to go to war with the Klingons anyways, why not just head straight to Qo’nos and launch the 72 superman torpedos himself and get rid of the blood on his hands problem and blow up some Klingons while there?

2) I notice some lines was not in the final release of the film, Darkness is coming…,You think your world is safe?…You are a pawn Kirk…am I correct these lines were cut from the film or did I miss it?

3) Did you guys ever consider marketing the film as featuring Khan? Instead of the secrecy and misdirect?

4) Why didn’t the USS Vengence just beam Khan directly into space or their ship?

5) Did you consider putting in a post credit scene? if yes, what was it to show?

6) My only problem about the film is Scotty bumping into the area 51 starfleet base near Jupitor, If a jeeb was to approach area 51 with a engieer in it, and it tried to enter the base when other jeebs were entering the facility, the engieer would be shot on sight and killed and his flesh eaten by the reptilian over lords while watched on by the grays! lol

224. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

jeeps*

225. Dennis C - May 16, 2013

By the way, for the next movie I say bring in Neill Blomkamp. He’s demonstrated that he knows how to balance thoughtful science fiction with action. “District 9″ is arguably one of the best science fiction films produced over the past 20 years and “Elysium” looks to be a film thay will expand on some of the themes he explored several years ago.

I suspect that he could write and direct one heckuva Star Trek movie.

226. The Sisko - May 16, 2013

I should expand. The reactor scene was derivative.
There were many good points, but I get nervous that “going back to Momma” is going to be a recurring issue.
Adm. Marcus’ seeking revenge an interesting angle, and I can see why Carol would want to leave Starfleet, but will she? Using Khan was kind of a fan boy thing. I mean, he totaled a whole Klingon brigade, he couldn’t take care of some Starfleet security & get his “family” back?
The Klingon angle hopefully will be more explored, and possibly will there be repercussions via Section 31.
I am going to see it again though, as if you keep the fact that this is a completely different reality in mind, it is a great film. Maybe that’s always going to be the issue, everyone will compare it to what was done.

227. Robert Saint John - May 16, 2013

All due respect to Benicio Del Toro… but I’m so glad he dropped out of the film. Benedict Cumberbatch was insanely great, one of many elements that made this film so wonderful.

228. Jamor - May 16, 2013

So, I guess I’m old (or at least I like old movies… I’m only 34!)… but Into Darkness suffers from the same things that plague almost all big blockbuster films these days… convoluted dramatic structure and no feel for pace.

What is the dramatic structure of the film? What’s the climax? Not sure I can identify. Lots of possibilities, but it’s like a bunch of equal episodes strung along. There’s no sense of building tension throughout, which is a shame. This is basic storytelling…. where is the craft?

Pacing is like pedal to the metal for three minutes, hit the brakes for one, back and forth… it’s jarring and just messes the audience’s ability to follow the story or the characters. The moment on Kronos when Spock and Uhura’s fence mending is concluded abruptly with weapons fire was almost laughable. The last 15 minutes is a mess. Audience loses track of Khan for a lengthy amount of time while Kirk saves the Enterprise. Then, all of the sudden, he’s back (shouldn’t Vengeance have crashed already?). Question… why doesn’t the Vengeance burn up in the atmosphere as the Enterprise would have?

I didn’t mind the recreation of some of TWOK parts, although it could have been more subtle. The “Khan” shout by Spock was cringe-worthy. The role reversal is clever, but the thing is, the “death” scene has no emotional impact on the viewer because we all know Kirk isn’t dying. So it’s not a real sacrifice. Watching TWOK in theaters, Spock was dying… he wasn’t coming back as far as the audience knew.

I understand that a lot of the decisions that go into a film like this are based on getting a certain demographic to part with their cash. This is a shame because Star Trek has a tradition of being counter-cultural. I would rather see a budget 1/100 the size of Into Darkness, without the financial fate of the company resting on its success or failure. Good story telling requires taking risks (see the original show, taking the Batman series in the direction that Christopher Nolan did, and taking the Bond series in a much more serious direction), and I see very little of that in Into Darkness.

There is a lot of good in Into Darkness that should be noted. The performances are all superb. I’d argue that the actors somehow transcend the choppiness of the film in conveying their characters. The cast is definitely the strongest part of the rebooted universe.

I’m also a big fan of Michael Giacchino and his score. Like the actors, he transcends some of the aforementioned problems… his score may be the only glue keeping the whole thing together.

I hope the next film doesn’t involve earth at all, and we get the Enterprise truly on the edge of the frontier in the unknown, with the ship as the only sanctuary for the crew, and only each other to rely upon. Seems like it might be heading that direction at least.

229. Hat Rick - May 16, 2013

Glad we agree, JimJ! You and I are of the same generation, it seems, and we are not the only ones who remember what Trek really means.

What it means to be a believer in the future of humanity, and the fact that the best times are still ahead.

The future is a wonderful place; it makes the present worth the while! :-)

And I cannot wait for the third film in this new Trek universe. I just hope it will not take another four years.

In fact, I hope this film inspires a new Trek TV series set in this this new universe, even if the movie cast doesn’t appear in it. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see how some of our favorite Trek stories could be reworked in new ways?

Also, before I forget — I had no idea that Leonard Nimoy was going to reprise his role in this movie. What a wonderful cameo!

230. Get real - May 16, 2013

Ugh, I haven’t seen it and now really don’t plan on it. If I wanna see Star Trek 2 I’ll watch it. This whole thing needs scrapped and another reboot done. How about getting James Cawley and company to head up the next one??? Let’s do this right people.

231. Robert Saint John - May 16, 2013

Oh, and one comment to Bob Orci: thank you to you and the team for trying so hard to keep Harrison’s identity a secret, even the fibbing. Honestly, it worked on me. I went into that movie completely spoiler free, was convinced long ago that it wasn’t Khan, and completely surprised with it was revealed.

And it was a completely pleasant surprise for me. I’m a 47 year old fan and I have no idea why some here are trying to speak for everyone by saying that it served only to piss fans off. I thought it was wonderfully executed, and a worthy expansion of the character.

232. Jtrekker - May 16, 2013

boborci:

I’ll start off by being honest: There is no question that STID was the most entertaining/edge of your seat installment in the Star Trek movie franchise. There was more homages to TOS than I anticipated, and much more humor than I expected given the levity of the film. But, that said, this was not the perfect Star Trek film.

I feel no need to rehash all the comments that have already been stated in this thread – and by no means do I agree with all of the complaints. I have to be honest that I wasn’t thrilled with the fact that it was Kahn – but I also understand why it HAD to be Kahn. I didn’t love the “Kirk death scene”, but I also understand the choice to go that direction. But, I have to admit that the scene was the only part that really took me out of the movie. And, as weird as it may seem, it was really only the re-use of dialogue that upset me. The weight of the scene and the importance it plays in the relationship of Kirk and Spock makes it respectable. But, in my opinion, it’s just hard to try and recreate a part of movie history which is already one of the best “death scenes” of all time. But, once Spock starts beating the crap out of Kahn, I was back in it – even with the rushed ending, which really was just disappointing because I was wanting more!

All that said, the one thing that stands out most in this movie is that I never doubted- not even for one second – that this was the family (to reference one of the movie’s themes) who has brought so much joy to me over the years. Pine IS Kirk. Quinto IS Spock. And, if I believed in reincarnation, then I would say Urban IS DeForrest Kelly playing McCoy! Don’t get me wrong – I LOVE the original actors. But, to me, each of the new team are a direct extension of my friends who have been with me for so long. And, due to that fact, I can’t wait to see them again in another 3 years!

So, in conclusion, I leave you with one question: No artist ever completely loves their work. That said – in your opinion – is there anything in the movie that didn’t quite work once it was on screen, or is there anything that you would change if given the chance?

233. D.J. Ammons - May 16, 2013

I just got back a little while ago from the IMAX 3D sneak peak and it was awesome! I know there are those who want Shatner at 130 to be playing Captain Kirk but I think everything about JJ’s reboot has been remarkable.

From casting, script, directing (with the exception of those cotton pickin’ lens flares) both Star Trek movies have been spot on.

We are seeing the full potential of a big budget Star Trek action movie that still has the character interplay that made us love TOS. I am excited about these new Star Trek movies bringing in a whole new generation of Star Trek fans.

234. Captain Jack - May 16, 2013

@bobOrci I can see you & the team spent time on the script, there’s a lot packed in there! Multiple viewing experience, indeed! Loved the movie!
So, were the rumours true the 2009 movie was planned to have a shot of the SS Botanny Bay after credits? Was it dropped to keep “Khan” a secret for this film?

235. Jtrekker - May 16, 2013

Oh, and I guess I should throw in one other thing:

The most unique part of the night watching STID – being in a theater with half of us rabid-Vulcan salute waving-phaser blasting fans, and half normal people who were just excited to watch the next big summer blockbuster (aka “normal” people). I’m sure alot of us long time Trekkies can understand and agree, but I’ve NEVER been to a midnight/first run showing where the crowd was not almost all of the traditional fan base/sci fi enthusiasts. I know this is a sticking point for some people, but to me, that’s the most awesome part of seeing Star Trek being revived: all the new people who are making watching Star Trek “THE THING TO DO”!! Folks, I never thought the franchise I’ve loved for so long would be considered….. COOL!!! LOL!

That said, two of my non-Trekkie fans were at the showing tonight (even though they have a slight appreciation for older Trek). They loved it! I don’t think I saw anyone who looked or sounded completely upset, so I still think boborci, Alex, JJ and company are doing something right…

236. mateo - May 16, 2013

213 – Crumbs: EXACTLY RIGHT. I 100% agree on everything you said. I had mentioned to my friends that it was like I had just watched a caricature of Star Trek made by people who hate Star Trek and hate people who do like Trek.

It’s like they just made a bullet-point list of Trek-lore items, put them on index cards, then decided how they would be ordered by throwing the cards up in the air and seeing where they lay. At least 2/3 of this movie was composed of tiny-little-plot-point after tiny-little-plot-point with ridiculous, over-the-top music blaring while the most annoying & hateable iteration of Bones imaginable snarked in the background and Kirk dangled from a ledge only to be saved at the “last second”. GOOD. LORD. This was so crammed full of cliches that it would take me an hour to type them all out…if not longer.

I have never been more disappointed in a movie/video game/music album/etc. in my entire life. Not only do I feel disappointment, but I also feel a little insulted, used, resentment and, yes, a bit “betrayed” (in the least dramatic way, naturally ;)). Just as I had worried, the writing for this movie was beyond risible: It was embarrassing.

I paid for two of my friends to go with me so I could get non-Trek fans to see it and hopefully spread the word (assuming the movie was decent). We ALL had the exact same complaints about this disappointing, gorgeous piece of sh*t. (<–I think I should copyright that. I used it last week and now that I've seen the movie, I can say definitively that it is absolutely appropriate.)

I have more — much more — to say about this movie & project generally…be back shortly.

I'd love to see what boborci has to say about these criticisms. (I can assure him/you/everyone that MANY people feel the same way as I.)

Normally I would feel bad criticizing an "artist" expressing themselves, but this is not the work of artists: This was the resulting composite of a film that tested well in groups after being scrubbed clean of imagination & boldness.

With Trek 2009, I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on peoples' perceptions about it. I couldn't believe it was getting such good reviews and people were going to see it in droves. I didn't hate the movie at all — I'd probably give it 3.5/5 stars — but it sure as hell wasn't a cream-of-the-crop affair either. The creative team obviously let that adulation go to their heads and think they can do no wrong: What other explanation is there for phoning it in with Into Darkness and not even bothering to come up with ANYTHING original or challenging?

237. Unwanted - May 16, 2013

Interstellar transporters appeared in TOS, Assignment: Earth, as Enterprise [in 1968] intercepted a transporter signal from outside Earth’s solar system, as well as in the novel Best Destiny (which Bob and Alex have already pulled ideas from), and Voyager episode Prime Factors, probably others as well, since the Iconian Gateway (TNG Contagion, IIRC) would also qualify.

That kind of Transporter technology has been present in the Trek universe since season 2 of TOS.

238. J.Radford - May 16, 2013

Amazing. Epic. Brilliant. Most thrilling movie experience I’ve had in years at the movies.
And I say all that as a Star Trek super fan who would put his knowledge of trek lore up against anyone’s.
Thank you bob, jj and all involved for saving one of my favorite things in this world—Star Trek.
Thanks

239. J.Radford - May 16, 2013

And my fiancé loved it too

240. The Sisko - May 16, 2013

Now, the defining moment……even though it was in the rehash of the reactor, Kirk telling Spock he’s scared…..the most human, honest thing he could have ever done.

241. You want me to put on a what color shirt!?!? - May 16, 2013

I thought this movie was awesome. It was fun, exciting, thoughtful and funny. I loved the homages and new twists. I’m a guy who watched TOS in it’s first run and have seen everything since and clearly, this movie was written by guys who love Trek. Thanks for the ride and I’ll be seeing it again.

242. Dr. Image - May 16, 2013

Holy crap, are the nitpickers out tonight! I’m gonna say it- GET A LIFE!!!
Saw it, LOVED IT. And I am a life-long Trek fan. AND a “purist!”
It’s all about ENTERTAINMENT, and STID delivers, period.
THANK YOU JJ!!! Please, give us another one sooner than later- or, hey, bring Trek back to TV!

243. Giez - May 16, 2013

@boborci:

1st thoughts… Awesome movie! Sure there’s an issue or two, probably the echos of a familiar, beloved Trek movie a tad too much by the end (and I understand they are in more of a Space Seed time of the timeline)… a few laughed at Spock’s Khhhhaaannnn! Did you think it may garner that response?

But great visuals, (3D and all) some nice cast moments and the pace keeps you on your toes. (Powerless E was great!) Acting spot on, though Bones needs some MEAT (#3) Direction seemed great and Cumberbatch did a great job. Maybe could have used a few more quieter moments, but I understand pace for the norms… I’d love to hear the “cuts”…

Let’s hope #3 is really fresh and stands alone, and away from Earth. And arrives in 3 years. Thank you. 3.25*/4*

@theGiez

244. Ben - May 16, 2013

@boborci…

1. Is the junction with the multiple levels corridors supposed to be in the Enterprise’s “neck” with the dome at the top?

2. Were there discussions to refit the ship to be more TOS like or TMP like when it made it’s final appearance in the new film?

Thanks!

245. Schiefy - May 16, 2013

@boborci…I think I understand some of the negativity the film has spawned…

Many (and myself included) were having a hard time seeing Kahn in this alternative timeline as something “original” (even though we have no problem accepting the crew of the Enterprise in this new timeline as not “original”)…

In addition, while some of the hints suggested it was likely to be Kahn, it was easy to begin thinking it was all a misdirection and the story was about something more unexpected…

In other words, we set ourselves up for a different movie and are disappointed because it really was Kahn…

However, after some reflection since seeing it earlier (and hope others who might have felt similarly to the above are doing the same) I see how the “familiar” and “unoriginal” components are major parts of the character development (especially Kirk and Spock) we see in the movie while at the same time giving fans an enormous nod (to our nostalgia for the “good ol’ Trek”)…

STID is a far better movie than some of the negative comments it received while maybe not as great as other see it too…but then, it may all boil down to our starting point when we go in and see it…for some of us the comparisons will always be there to old Trek while others with less history are inheriting a new Trek to call their own.

P.S.: all of the quote marks are intended to highlight some ambiguous words that people used with different meanings…for instance, “original” could mean the “first” Trek or a “new” concept not seen in Trek or a “different” spin on Trek as very much in evidence, I think, with STID.

P.S.S.: I don’t know if it was intentional or not but the away mission to Kronos did make me think you included a nod to STV:TFF with Sulu as “captain” this time instead of Chekhov! ;)

246. STID most disappointing event in human history? - May 16, 2013

Jesus…so many people on here are kissing boborci’s ass! News flash: He doesn’t know you and you don’t know him and you never will! Just try being honest….

247. Exverlobter - May 16, 2013

@BobOrci

I peviously praised your and Alex Kurtzmans “Micromanagemant” of the script. (Kirks demotion etc.)
However did you have full creative control ?
I’ve talked to many people about StID (here, on other forums and in with persons in real life ) and the most criticism comes this time not from little plotholes like in the 2009-film but from the way how the base-frame of the story is structured: That it’s basically a TWOK-Rehash in the last third of the film (although with some alterations)
Did you and Alex have full creative controll, or did Damon Lindeloff and JJ Abrams came already with the frame of the story for you to fill in?
Like “Guys. it will be about Khan and an Homage to TWOK, so now start with the details.

248. JRT! - May 16, 2013

I enjoyed it and not gonna nitpick at all! It opened in Norway last week actually,not this week. Seeing it again on Saturday in Raleigh,since a friend of mine there really wants to see it and I don’t mind seeing it again….and again,lol!

Thanks Bob Orci! And keep the comics coming! And hope Spidey 2 is still coming along nicely!

J-R!

249. Unwanted - May 16, 2013

Forgot one, on Voyager they beamed Romulan from the past in the alpha quadrant onto the Voyager through a micro-wormhole, not only interstellar transport on a massive scale, but also temporal transport as well. Which was also later done by the USS Relativity, with ease, moving Seven from Voyager at Earth spacedock to Voyager in the Delta quadrant years later.

Also Re: “Why didn’t Marcus just fly the Vengance into Klingon space and start the war himself”, two words, plausible deniability. Sending Kirk, and expecting him to “shoot first and forget the important questions” allows Marcus to appear a hero, with excellent foresight, when a rogue subordinate triggers a full scale conflict, and he swoops in at just the right time to tip the scales back in favor of the Federation.

250. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

I’m going to skip past all of the nitpicking. I know that a real movie could never compare to the perfect, self-crafted fantasy that you fellow fans have in your heads.

They handled Khan nicely. I know that they tried to cast a Montalban-esque actor in the role, but that didn’t work out. Benedict Cumberbatch is great as Khan.

Bob Orci: I’m sure you aren’t tired or anything, so here is my wish list for the next one.

Maybe some female Klingons.

If there is a villain, how about a woman? The Borg queen is one of the best villains in Star Trek. I’m not saying go Borg, but seeing Kirk go up against a female villain could be interesting… especially with Marcus around.

Thanks for a fun movie!

251. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2013

@184. The Trekman,
“having it revealed that Cumberbatch’s character lied to Kirk and Marcus that he was Khan would have been a much better twist!”

It’s not too late for this. There is nothing in the movie that precludes Harrison from having done this. In fact it makes much more sense than he is actually Khan to me.

252. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

@boborci

I also loved the callback to Spock beating up the Vulcan bullies.

253. mateo - May 16, 2013

65. boborci

I just can’t get over his answers to these questions. His answers are as superficial as his scripts…so I guess he’s just being himself when he writes.

“a: try telling that to Uhura when the man she loves is down there. She doesn’t lave things to others.”

Okay, Bob, maybe you guys working on the movie think you made this personality trait clear in the movie, but, take it from a fan: You did not.
Uhura in the first movie: competent; tough; believable as an officer.
Uhura in this movie: completely incapable of controlling her emotions; childish; a poseur; ridiculous.
NOBODY believes that “she doesn’t leave things to others” based on this script.

LOL…I can totally predict how Orci/Kurtzman would “fix” this: “Don’t worry, let’s just have [insert any character at all here] say ‘Oh Uhura, you never leave things to others.’”

And to those sycophants who are trying to ingratiate themselves to people they’ll never meet and who are bitching about criticisms: A.) Do you realize the purpose of this web site? B) Orci/Kurtzman/JJ Abrams sleep on mountains of money from the projects they foist onto the public. They can deal with it. They don’t care anyway.

254. Exverlobter - May 16, 2013

BTW Kudos to BobOrci for his willingness to stand in the line of fire here whereas at the sight of the big box office success he coudn’t care less.

255. Gurk - May 16, 2013

I find it strange that Spock and Scotty are the ones who bring up the moral issue, it should have been Bones. Spock should have advocated firing the torpedoes.

256. Brevard - May 16, 2013

I am going to preface my comment about Into Darkness by saying that I saw Star Trek 2009 five times in the theater and have viewed it probably another ten times on DVD. I loved the 2009 movie so much that I forgave the creative team for blowing up Vulcan and for the insipid Spock/Uhura romance. I simply thought creating a new timeline was an inspired choice and assured us that we would have some awesome new adventures in the future with our favorite sci fi characters.

However, after seeing Star Trek Into Darkness, all I can say is that I feel intensely betrayed by the creative staff. I feel that my intelligence was insulted. We waited four years to get a rehash of an already iconic movie? Writers, if you read this, know that a lot of us are extremely disappointed. What was the purpose or rebooting the timeline if we are only to get warmed over plots and dialogue? There was nary an original idea in this whole movie.

None, and I mean none, of the manipulated emotion in this film was earned. None. When Spock died in TWOK, we felt intensely because we had 15 years of knowing and loving that character. Kirk dies? Big deal. We barely know this incarnation of Kirk. And we knew he wasn’t really dead, anyway. I felt more for Pike than I did for Kirk.

I feel as if JJ and crew manipulated us through the last 4 years, constantly denying Harrison’s true identity. They lied to us when we figured it out. That is not the way you treat fans.

Here’s a newsflash JJ and company, it would have probably been better to let us know Harrison’s true identity before the move started. At least we could have been prepared for the silliness of the plot.

It appears that JJ will not be directing the next Trek due to Star Wars. Perhaps it’s time to just clean house altogether. I say it’s time for the creative team to go–the writers, primarily. Let someone one else with some imagination and some new ideas take this great conceit of a rebooted timeline and really run with it.

I’m so disappointed. I honestly can’t believe how the ST team played us as fans. I feel dirty. Need to wash this awful experience away.

We, as Star Trek fans, deserve better and I hope we get it in the future. I can’t believe I waited 4 years for this.

257. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

Also, I’m interpreting Into Darkness as a reference to Kirk’s death (darkness).

258. Exverlobter - May 16, 2013

I think it’s funny how much Peter Wellers Admiral Marcus resembles the Paxton character from Enterprise(also played by Weller). Their evil plans were comparable. Maybe Marcus is a descendant of Paxton

259. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

This movie just whips it out right away. It’s like, “We’ve done this before, but you know we’re going to have fun, right?” And when it ends, it’s like, “That was fun. You know we’re going to do this again, right?”.

260. Mike D. - May 16, 2013

@boborci

I loved the movie. It was fun, action-packed, and gave nods to classic moments with a twist.

Now that the Enterprise is embarking on their 5-year mission, I hope to see new life and new civilizations in the next one.

I still hold out hope for a new Trek TV series at some point. Surely Paramount and CBS will say “Yes!” at some point.

261. bterrik - May 16, 2013

I loved the movie! There are nitpicks, of course – as there are for every movie.

But I thought so very much was great! Scotty is proving to be one of my favorite characters.

One thing I would have added – was I the only one who really wanted Kirk, at the end when they were discussing where to go on the five year mission to sit back in the chair and deliver the, “Second star to the right, and straight on ’til morning” line? That would have been PERFECT to me.

262. Buzz Cagney - May 16, 2013

Ok, i’ve seen it twice now despite hating it the first time. I was compelled to go again by a long time friend and fellow Trek fan.

I involuntarily groaned my way through it the first time and, despite knowing Harrison was Khan still did a palm/face slap when the ‘secret’ was revealed.
I found much to be irritated about on the first viewing.

However……. my second viewing yesterday was a bit more easy. Oh, for sure the story is mash-up of much that has come before and a great deal of the dialogue was clunky and heavy handed but looking past that its not as bad as I felt it was on first seeing it.
The truth remains though: They should have done something more original than just revisiting Khan. It just displays a terrible lack of original thinking.
Perhaps next time?

263. Tup - May 16, 2013

Haven’t seen the movie yet but wanted to point out one thing in regards to anger over the “magic” blood.

I just watched Space Seed again and when Khan is unfrozen and is in sickbay McCoy tells Kirk “there is something in him that won’t allow him to die”.

I accept that one line as canonical support for his blood having healing properties.

PS: unbelievable class on Bob Orci’s part to come here and engage with fans, many of whom are critical. Good for you.

Ill be back after seeing the film Thursday night

264. chrisfawkes.com - May 16, 2013

I loved the film.

Spock screaming Khan had no real emotional resonance and as a not to Twok was just painful.

Kirk should have been a little more burnt up on his death scene.

Khan did come across like a superman more so than the previous incarnations of the character.

Keenser, just a wast of screen time. Would have prefered to see Scotty having drinks with a few friends rather than a character that looks like a puppet.

But some great dialogue.

The journey for Kirk and the Kirk/Spock relationship were perfect.

I would like to have old spock reply to young spock when asked how to defeat Khan by saying that anytime he cannot think what to do he ask himself what decision would Kirk make, then see that as a light bulb moment for young Spock leading to the decision that he did make.

I loved this film on first viewing. Loved it much more on second viewing. Will see it multiple times at the cinema.

This is a great Star Trek film, probably the best.

265. Bob - May 16, 2013

Just saw the IMAX movie. Thought it was a great movie and will see it many more times this weekend to see what I missed. Loved seeing Leonard Nimoy play Spock one more time.

266. Theatre Historian - May 16, 2013

So Bob was Bones comment about his hands a bit of a nod to the DS9 Trials and Tribble-lations episode where Dax comment about McCoy having the hands of a surgeon?

Also does anyone know why Chris Hemsworth and Jennifer Morrison are credited in the end credits?
I didnt notice but are they among the voices we hear in the dark, when kirk regains concesness towards the end of the film.
I can’t think of any other reason why they would have been credited since they are not in the film.

267. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

The truth remains though: They should have done something more original than just revisiting Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the gang. It just displays a terrible lack of original thinking.

Perhaps next time?

268. Capt Quinn - May 16, 2013

Fabulous great Star Trek. Can’t wait to see it again. No complaints here!

269. Buzz Cagney - May 16, 2013

#117 taken seriously by who? Not a large chunk of Trek’s fanbase thats for sure. The general movie going audience? Meh, i’ve never been worried about the popcorn munching crowd.
If you are saying they’ve made Trek relevant for a mass audience by making it largely irrelevant to much of Treks traditional audience then i’d agree with you.

270. Jeff O'Connor - May 16, 2013

This movie, more so even than the first one, really has me hoping there are a good two or three more sequels ahead for the nuCrew. We’ve had our fill of preparations; now the five-year mission can take a movie or two, and then some sort of follow-up to the threat of Klingon War can round it all out, perhaps with a return from Cumberbatch in mind as well.

Hell, have the Klingons play a subplot as secondary villains again in one of the five-year mission movies to further cement their relevance in the Abramsverse even more than we’ve seen with Into Darkness, so that that last movie is all the more Undiscovered Country when peace is brokered. Heh.

Of course in an ideal world we’d wake up tomorrow to news that said five-year mission just got greenlit for TV, but… yeah. :P

271. Defiant - May 16, 2013

@266

Yes, you’re right. They were among the voices we can hear in the scene where Kirk is coming back to life.

272. HappyGreg - May 16, 2013

@boborci & anyone else on the film

Keep the faith, I’m an old Star Trek fan and I loved 2009 and 2013 Star Trek too. Are they perfect films? Absolutely not… But you tell me one Star Trek movie that is. They all have problems, they all have plot holes, they all have emergency plot devices, including Wrath of Khan. Boom.

However all the films also have great characters too… something JJ & Bob, Damon, Alex and the wonderful young actors executed at a very high level.

Do things like “trans warp beaming” bother me? YES! But what bothers me more is all these big star trek fans on these forums apparently forgetting all the times in the old shows and movies that Star Trek Tech worked one way in one instance and another way in another instance. How many times has the front deflector dish been re-modulated or whatever to do some completely ridiculous thing?

Transporter technology is completely insane whether you are taking a human apart atom by atom and putting them back together from a “beam” whether you are doing it 5 feet away or at “trans warp…” its either way just MAKE BELIEVE GUYS!

One thing that is real though, are these characters. When you watch these two JJ team movies, you are watching real characters. Since this is the *SPOILER* THREAD I’m going to mention also that I’m going to really miss Bruce Greenwood’s Pike and his relationship with Pine’s Kirk. But obviously as good as that father son type bond was, the character of Kirk needs to get out on his 5 year mission, and we need to move on from Pike. In general all of the human stuff is just great, talented, work. Period. And remember these characters are still younger than the TOS characters! They are still growing, as characters, and as actors with these roles.

I mean I guess the sheer pace of the film may have been to much for some old die hard trekkers to keep up with or something, but like wow there were countless fun moments for fans in the film. I for sure will be back for repeat viewings… I missed so much of the eye candy because of my not ideal IMAX seats… But this will be a Blu-Ray disk I will watch over and over.

So JJ Trek haters… Shut… your… mouth… (I would have tweaked that line with Chris Pine during shooting)

I could ramble endlessly about what I loved and didn’t love about this movie, but in general I loved it, it was fun, and will probably be the 2013 movie I will ultimately watch the most times over and over.

In the odd chance that you are still on this thread boborci… Thank you, and get the team back in a room somewhere, and get back to work! Bang out some early progress before JJ is full bore into Star Wars.

273. Buzz Cagney - May 16, 2013

#267 not sure that would have been the answer either. Ask Rick Berman if that approach worked for him.
No, revisiting Trek’s most iconic characters wasn’t the problem. A back story for them needed telling. But why not make it more original?

274. Exverlobter - May 16, 2013

@BobOrci

There is a mismatch between Admiral Marcus and his daughters accent. I think that was kind of strange.
Alice Eve is capable of speaking with an american accent as seen in “She’s out of my league”. Is there a reason in the story why Eve kept her natural british accent or was it just her wish to feel more comfortable?

275. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

@264
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_burn

276. ObsesiveStarTrekFan - May 16, 2013

@253. mateo

“Uhura in the first movie: competent; tough; believable as an officer.
Uhura in this movie: completely incapable of controlling her emotions; childish; a poseur; ridiculous.
NOBODY believes that “she doesn’t leave things to others” based on this script. ”

So, I must have missed something? Did Uhura let someone else go out to try to negotiate with the Klingons? I’m pretty sure I saw her insist on doing it as their only chance of not being killed outright.

Also, in my opinion, she was no more emotional than the men in the extremely emotional circumstances they faced.

To me, she came across as tough and competent, and willing to do what was necessary – whether that was putting herself in harms way, or putting the one she loved in harms way. At the risk of having my words twisted against me – I loved the scene where she says to Spock “go get him”. That really had a ‘with your shield, or on it’ feel to it. Harrison’s ‘disruption’ video was certainly proved wrong.

277. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

One last thing for the nitpickers tonight:

It’s fiction. Use your imagination.

278. Exverlobter - May 16, 2013

I hope we’ll get the Gorn in the third film

279. ObsesiveStarTrekFan - May 16, 2013

@261. bterrik

“Second star to the right, and straight on ’til morning”

I thought about that too, but decided it wasn’t yet warranted. This crew are still very young, and I think it would have been over-the-top to include the Peter Pan reference at this point. That line from ST:TUC was from a captain at the end of his voyages.

I’ll bet Bob Orci and crew thought about it for a bit, though ;-)

280. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

@274 Her mother’s maiden name is Wallace. That’s a British name. Maybe it comes from her mother.

281. Matthias from germany - May 16, 2013

@boborci: I love the new movie and have seen it twice in four days ;) I will go into the movie a last, third time, within the next two weeks, too. I am so happy you, as a Star Trek Fan, are on board. Hope you will stay in the team of the screenplay – authors for the next Trek-projects, whatever it might be!!!

As I have seen the movie first time, I was pretty well entertained, but only the second time, when I knew it is a movie about Khan, I was overwhelmed. I had to know the “theme” of the movie to be able to feel overwhelmed: If you would go into “Star Trek IV” the first time .- for instance – and you would expect to see a space-adventure you would also feel astonished to find yourself in a city of the 20th century on the search for a whale ;) I expected also a slightly different movie when I went into “into darkness”…. Expectations are never good, but I also asume, the trailer – in their trial to reveal the truth behind the story – gave also some “false” clues…

I hope, there will be some more Trek also on TV in the near future! “Enterprise” could be continued (it is part of both timelines) and maybe there could be a “TNG” animation of the new timeline? :)

After all I have one question: There are some modell-ships in the room of admiral Archer. I think, I saw a gemini-capsule, also the phoenix, one “nx”-ship (possibly the enterprise), but also somethin of … 2001? Would you please write, which ships there were?

Thank you so much! I love this movie!

Engage!

282. Exverlobter - May 16, 2013

@”280. geodesic17 ”

Maybe. But she hadn’t a brit-accent in the original-film, so i would have preferred if Eve used her accent-talent.

283. Jack - May 16, 2013

First reaction: disappointment. Recycling rather than homage. A lot of hardcore Trekkers leaving the theatre muttering “that story made no sense.” Too bad, such great potential — and Abrams made it look terrific. The Klingobs were cool. Everything snouty the ____ storyline didn’t work.

284. Matthias from germany - May 16, 2013

P.S. it is of course NOT admiral archer, but admiral marcus. :)

285. flywithsean - May 16, 2013

@boborci Just got done wathching the movie and it was all could ask for. Great job and don’t listen to the haters. I come from a long line of Trekkies. My grandmother wrote in every week for years after TOS got cancelled to try and get it back on the air. I have said all along I wanted a film that twisted how Khan was entered into the new timeline and you did it perfectly. Can’t wait to see whats next.

286. Timncc1701 - May 16, 2013

So disappointed. The reverse retread of the death scene in engineering was LAME. We did not care about Chris Pine’s Kirk dying because WE DONT KNOW HIM WELL ENOUGH. With Wrath of Khan there was a long history of 79 episodes where the actors became the characters. Also flipping the lines of Kirk and Spock felt cheesy. You create a new timeline and do a cheesy retread of the best Trek movie scene? A British Khan? Why not do a similar story with another character deleting the cheesy death scene? It was vile necrophelia and grave robbery. The characters and actors have so much going for them. Why screw it up with a cheesy retread? WHY????

287. Chuck - May 16, 2013

Mr. Orci.
I’m just getting home from the movie and I loved it.
THANK YOU for caring about what we think!
Can’t wait for the third movie…..

288. TRENT - May 16, 2013

Voted BAD because of the many faults described above by other viewers.

I wanted to like this movie and, up to the point of the interstellar transport from Earth to the Klingon home world, I kept hoping that it would not become a major letdown.

The use of interstellar transporter technology cannot be justified by their previous use in other episodes. If the Federation possessed this level of technology, starships would be obsolete and a core premise of Trek would be pointless.

289. Xeos - May 16, 2013

boborci – i hope you and Alex are starting on your draft for the 2016 sequel, because Into Darkness was absolutely incredible. As a die hard trekkie, I love being able to enjoy something like this with my non-trekkie wife :)

290. Markus - May 16, 2013

film left me with a somehow sad feeling, despite the last scene.

@boborci: do you take applications from Germany to become part of your writing team? do I need a green card?

291. cjlp88 - May 16, 2013

Can someone explain to me how two Federation starships were duking it out around the moon and nobody noticed?

And then the Enterprise somehow entered Earth’s gravity well and fell from the moon to Earth in a matter of minutes?

And how there were no ships, starbases, or automated defenses protecting the capital of the Federation, and nobody even tried to stop a ship from ramming San Francisco, nor were there any law enforcement officers to intercept a wanted terrorist fleeing the scene of the crash?

Also, what happened to the crew of the Vengance, and who was firing weapons? Was Khan doing it all from his seat?

Who keeps a dead tribble around and why would you just randomly inject a blood sample into it?

Why would you punctuate a ripped-off dramatic scene by having a character scream a phrase that is only iconic because it is over the top and hilarious?

Why would all of Starfleets higher ups convene in a glass building following a terrorist attack?

I didn’t like ST09, but it was a good film, for all its flaws. STID is a mess that does not hold up to any kind of scrutiny. And it would be fine if the action backed it up, or Khanberpatch had any chemistry with any of the cast members, or I felt like any of the characters grew up and learned something from the experience. But it didn’t, he didn’t, and I didn’t.

292. Nemesis4909 - May 16, 2013

@boborci Thank you for visiting this site and dealing with people’s questions. If you wouldn’t mind, could you answer a couple of mine?

1) You said on this thread that you worked on the story without Khan in mind and thn integrated him later. Why? Why did this story need Khan? There’s power in a disgruntled Starfleet officer attacking the system. Would have been a great parallel where Kirk learns how to follow the rules in taking down someone who is the personification of disobedience

2) You also said that this film and Wrath of Khan are not the same film, I agree but the ending is almost the same (by ending I mean Kirk’s “sacrifice” to save the ship). If you watch the sequence in Wrath of Khan, the sequence in your film is nearly identical, apart from Kirk and Spock’s roles reversed. Also your version looked a lot more expensive…I’m of the opinion that special effects don’t denote quality (see the Transformers movies for clear examples). Also Kirk and Spock weren’t at the point in their friendship where that carries so much weight, in Wrath of Khan it was essentially the end of a profound friendship. I realise that this hasn’t yet been a question so my question is this. What was your reason for using that moment along with the KHAAAAAAAAAAAN! scream?

That’s the end of my questions but I have to say I felt a bit let down by the film, all it did was remind me of a film that I’d rather be watching, you did so well by creating this alternate reality full of limitless possibilities and then immediately rehashed an old story that didn’t need rehashing. I hope you’re not planning to do the Borg next film, that would be unfortunate.

There were other issues I had, transwarp beaming, distance between Earth and Qo’nos etc but that would be nerdy nitpicking.

In the interest of completeness, I’ll tell you what I liked. I really liked the idea of Kirk being reckless and punished for his recklessness (even though it didn’t play out as well as it could have). My favourite scene was when Spock explained why he chose not to feel, there was great weight to that scene and it was very Star Trek. I also liked Uhura appealing to Kirk to let her try to talk their way out of the situation with the Klingons, again, very Star Trek. Scotty quitting on moral grounds was great too. There was little gems throughout the film that could have been focussed on more.

I know this may seem like I’m complaining a lot Bob and maybe I am but I really do think you’re a talented writer and I know you can do better than this, I held this film to a high standard because I hold you to a high standard and you just didn’t meet that in my opinion. I hope you give more care and attention to “The Amazing Spider-Man 2″ as Spider-Man is another thing that’s near and dear to my heart.

I’m trying to break into screenwriting myself so I suppose my final question is, have you any advice on how to do that?

I would be honoured if you’d respond to this Bob, thanks in advance for your time.

Craig McKenzie

293. Marja - May 16, 2013

@ BobOrci, Awesome, awesome, awesome. What I love about drama was all here: CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AND INTERPLAY, and done so beautifully. Spock and Kirk both had beautiful character arcs, and Karen, above, pointed everything out so well I feel I need say no more.

THANK YOU FOR WRITING STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS. Uhura just totally kicked ass, in both senses. Going out all alone to speak with the Klingons, wow. Beaming down to help Spock capture K, wow. Sending Her Man into the Volcano, professional, wow. And Carol facing off with Dad and K … [nevertheless gratuitous underwear scene was gratuitous]

THANK YOU for making Scotty integral to the plot and using his amazing engineering skills.

I do hate that Pike died. I cried And I cried when Kirk died too. The cast of these movies is absolutely terrific, Quinto in this one especially, though I almost hate to single one person out; now I want to say Pine and Cumby also did utterly fantastic work and all others were excellent!

Had to retrieve jaw from floor before leaving the theatre. Rock on Bob! Convey this fan’s thanks to Alex K and Damon L as well for great writing. Thanks for all the Trek tributes within, and thanks for finding everyone meaningful stuff to do.

I’ve been a fan for over 40 years, and I’m so to have seen this movie! Very glad you were onboard to write it.

Will be seeing the movie two or three more times this weekend, and probably another, oh, ten times through the next month :D

294. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#4 pretty much nails this film perfectly.

I loved ST09–the only blu-ray I’ve ever bought–but this film is a severe letdown. Too bad Orci and crew didn’t try for originality at any point in STID. It’s a retread of the first film and TWOK, with so many lines shoved in from TWOK that this is plagiarism, NOT homage.

Not a terrible film–especially compared to idiotfests like Prometheus–but it’s unoriginal, rushed, filled with pointless fan wankery, and it RUINS Khan. There is NO reason for this character to be Khan. None. It’s a stupid, unoriginal, idiotic part of the film.

The film was great until Khan’s reveal. After that, it’s a C+ at best. (Khan’s magic bring-back-the-dead blood is almost enough for an F.)

I hope the next Trek film keeps this cast but loses Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, and Lindelof. Two movies in and they’re already repeating their first film. Do we really need to see the same stuff a third time?

295. Capes - May 16, 2013

Just got back from the the double feature of a replay of ’09 and then Into Darkness. I am an old school TOS fan and Shatner is/was/remains my Kirk for all time.

Having said that…..this was a very good movie when viewed from it’s own merit. It moved forward, developed some characters, and had some very nice surprises.

The ONLY thing that really works against it is that there is SOOOOOOO very much back story and history that everyone has their own take based on what they have loved over the years. You can’t fall in love for the first time more than once and after that everything else tends to fade just a smidge by comparison. But there is clearly a huge effort here to appeal to both the old and the new. There are folks on here that treat Nimoy’s cameo as a wasted throw away….I was pleasantly surprised and took it for what it was…..a nice little moment with an old friend that I didn’t expect to have happen.

So to sum up my review? I only have one thing to say……Thank you.

It is 3:30 am and I have to be at work in 4 hours. I am going to bed now but I had to get this out there first. Because the movie is good. An genuine effort was made. The results were solid. The franchise is in good shape and it is STILL evolving. THAT alone is very significant folks so take notice.

Good night.

296. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

OK, I’ve finally seen it.

First off, the good:

- A decent plot
- Kirk
- McCoy
- Sulu
- Benedidct Cumberbatch

Now, the bad:

Spock – he’s now turned into a chracter who can seemingly switch from being the logical spock we know to emo-spock at the will of the writers. I think even Spock Prime would be upset at how often this Spock decides to let his emotional guard down.

Checkov – He was basically portrayed as the kid who didn’t know how to make anything work. I suppose the point was to show how amazing Scotty is, but come on.

Things drug on too long – space jump drug on too long. They also sat in Klingon space so long it’s a wonder the klingons didn’t eventually stumble upon them.

Pike’s death – I know why they did it. I think the death scene itself was fine. But it felt like Count Dooku in episode 3 – he only survived the previous movie so he could be immediately killed off in this one.

Khan – While Cumberbatch played the character he was given very well, it just never felt like Khan. I also hate hate hate that they used Khan. It feels cheap, forced, and unnecessary.

I suppose in their defense, they had to deal with the character eventually – either in this movie or the next one or the comics. But it just feels like they desperately wanted to make “their” version of Wrath of Khan.

The engineering scene – just…just don’t. Lifting one of the most iconic scenes in Star Trek history. Not only does it smack of lack of creativity, but also of desperation. How can they make “their” Wrath of Khan without an engineering scene, right?

Overall, I guess it’s not the worst Star Trek movie. It would be hard to match the piles that The Final Frontier and Insurrection were. Taking the whole Khan bit out of the equation, I think I’d rank it 6th – after the “triology (II – IV), the Undiscovered County, and First Contact. But considering Khan, I think I’d have to plop it down at 10th – with only Final Frontier and Insurrection falling behind it.

297. Mantastic - May 16, 2013

So after seeing it, and pretty much guessing most (but not all) of what was going to happen, I liked it. Mostly.

Many of the plot holes or unanswered issues have already been discussed at length already so I’ll avoid talking about those first and focus more on the movie itself.

The good:

- The dialogue was great. It was engaging, crisp, did a good job of explaining what was going on without resorting to tons of technobabble. Big kudos to @boborci and Alex Kurtzman on it.

- The movie was one hell of a thrill ride. It did a good job of keeping me engaged and excited, even if things were going on that may have caused me to raise an eyebrow or get confused.

- While ultimately quite predictable based off of the trailers and info we’ve read, there were still some surprises, and even though I pretty much knew what was going to happen, I was still engaged and entertained by how it was executed….mostly.

- Visual FX were top notch, as expected. The technical quality was astounding.

- The nods to ST2 and other bits of TOS were nice. For the most part, they didn’t feel forced and fit with the movie well. Even the homage to the end of ST2 had me feeling pretty emotional, even if I knew they were going to use Khan’s blood to revive him (which the foreshadowing on that was super obvious).

- The music was good and complimented the movie well, though I think it would’ve been better if it had been toned down a bit.

- Klingons, f*** yeah!

- Spock Prime cameo, f*** yeah! A bit contrived and shoehorned in? Sure, but when he came up on the screen, the audience and their collective nerdgasms couldn’t contain themselves, myself included.

And now the bad:

- Without a doubt, the biggest problem I had with the movie was the pacing, editing, and cinematography. I felt like the entire movie was jacked up on steroids and was just trying to get every scene over with as quickly as possible. The movie, with a few exceptions (e.g. Kirk’s “death”) gives you little to no time to take everything in that’s going on and let things breathe. It severely lessened the impact of scenes like the battle between the Enterprise and the Vengeance where I could barely discern what the hell was going on. What reached my brain was basically “shit’s blowing up, boom splodey boom, more boomedy, WTF is going on?”.

When the Enterprise is getting shot at, hold the damn camera still, show us what’s going on for a few more seconds, and let it impact us. Don’t just have it be a flash of chaos that doesn’t register properly in our minds. Excite us, don’t assault us.

If I hadn’t known any better I would’ve thought Michael Bay directed this at times.

- JJ, cut out the damn lens flares. Seriously. They add nothing. They’re visually distracting, superfluous, and take you out of the moment. They’re the “Christian Bale Batman voice” of the two movies. I get that you were probably inspired by Spielberg’s overuse of bright spotlights in his sci-fi movies, but it was ugly then, and it’s uglier now.

- The USS Vengeance was lame and stereotypical. The design was hideous and completely unlike anything Starfleet (or Section 31) would make. I would’ve been far more intimidated if it looked like a super version of the JJprise, or something falling into that design aesthetic. The name was stupid too.

- A golden opportunity to have the Enterprise get a refit to address a lot of the issues the fans have with the current design went to waste. I didn’t see a discernible difference at all with the way the ship looked, but the scene was so rushed I probably missed it.

Nitpicky stuff

- Anyone else notice that there was almost no blood in the movie at all? Khan crushes Admiral Marcus’ head like a melon, and his hands are as clean as if he had just gotten out of the restroom.

- I understand that Khan is a genetically enhanced superhuman, but unless his bones are now harder than steel, there’s no way he could jump the distances he jumped and land without shattering his legs. And while I can suspend disbelief on that, how the hell can Spock fall what looked to be about 10 stories and land without a scratch?

- What the heck did Spock put in Khan’s head during the mindmeld to disorient him?

- Why does warp speed instantly transport you to where you need to go? I’m not saying you needed to show the whole slog of warp travel, but going from Kronos to Earth in the blink of an eye? Absurd.

- The ships falling to Earth is probably the least scientifically accurate thing I’ve seen in Star Trek. Ever. This is the first time in the movie where my jaw had dropped and my eyebrow raised, and I just said to myself…”That was some bulls***!” The issue of gravity while it’s falling I’ll give some leeway on (except for the brief scenes in Engineering where people are still standing at stations somehow while everyone else on the ship is tossed around like ragdolls), but the way the entry into the Earth’s atmosphere for both ships was simply unacceptable. I felt dumber after having seen it.

- Earth Starbase magically disappears and there’s no other ships anywhere to help? Okay, this is not the first time this has happened in Star Trek and it won’t be the last, but it’s getting old.

So yes, I liked it, but with reservations.

P.S. @boborci. Hear me out on this as the title for the next one: Star Trek: The Revenge of Schmuko. Ey? Ey? ;)

298. DC - May 16, 2013

@boborci I’m not gonna lie…..I’m conflicted. I loved the movie, it was far better than the last one and had more of that heart that made “real” Star Trek. BUT when it was revealed that he was Khan, I was a little turned off and disappointed….A LITTLE. BUT it was handled really well and I loved some of the differences made (Kirk making the sacrifice for example, the other ship, Spock wanting revenge for Kirk’s death, etc.) I do wonder what your guys’ take on the Botany Bay would have looked like though!

However, no insult intended but, you just can’t beat TWOK and I couldn’t help but to keep thinking back to that film instead and expecting variations of some of that film’s iconic scenes (the prefix code scene, the Battle in the Mutara Nebula, etc.) And the reason Khan doesn’t work for me as well as he did in TWOK is because he’s definitely more of Admiral Marcus’s enemy and Kirk and Co. just happened to get involved and eventually in the way and so, I feel more detached from this version of Khan (even if it wasn’t Khan, I’d still have this issue).

But I did love the Nimoy cameo. Unexpected and hearing him describe Khan Prime and his encounters with him sent chills up my spine! This was still very good and replaced First Contact as my third favorite Trek film (the first two being II: TWOK and VI: TUC), but Khan just left me wanting so much more…..so….idk…..I’m conflicted. I hope you don’t take this criticism too harshly.

299. Mantastic - May 16, 2013

Oh, and another quick thing, stop showing important things like the Enterprise getting shredded and the other ship crashing into the water in the damn trailers!!

300. Mike McP - May 16, 2013

@Bob Orci
****Thank you****

First, I would like to thank J.J. et al. for making me feel young again! I’m a Sociologist who just turned 29, and I grew up on Star Trek. I started watching TNG when I was six and I’ve been in love ever since. I can say, with certainty, that Star Trek has nurtured my intellectual and philosophical curiosity and shaped the person that I am today.

Your teaml did an absolutely fantastic job with this movie. However, I do have a question… In my opinion, one of the captivating characterisitics of Khan, was his ethnic, Indo heritage origin. I have no problem suspeding my disbelief and (in my mind) reconciling the change in Khan’s demeanor/appearance by suspecting that Section 31 altered Khan’s appearance and modified his vocal chords out of necessity. After all, a historically infamous, genocidal tyrant, like of Khan Noonien Singh (absent any alteration) would surely be recognized by anyone in Starfleet. My question: Is my interpretation correct, and if not, what is the explanation for Khan’s dramatic transformation? I will certainly have a “nerdgasm” if I’m honored enough to have you answer my query lol. All the best…and I can’t wait for part III.

301. Lord Britan - May 16, 2013

I’ve been a fan of Trek all of my life. I have always loved TOS the best due to the relationships though, and this movie did not disappoint me at all.

Also when Spock yelled, “KHAAAAAN!” I f’n loved it. An enraged Spock out for blood…Fantastic!

Thank you for the amazing movie Trek team…Thank you very much. I never thought I’d ever get to see Trek done in a way that others could appreciate. It truly warms my heart to think that the thing that I love can now be more accessible to a new generation of people:D

302. Mike McP - May 16, 2013

Excuse the typos, lol, my friends and I went out for a couple of pints after the movie to celebrate/debate STID.

-Mike MCP (Toronto, CA)

303. Anthony Thompson - May 16, 2013

It’s huge and very thrilling! Bob, you outdid yourself! JJ will be missed – he really hit this one out of the ballpark. A few minor quibbles here and there which can be delved into later. But, all in all, a true WOW experience!

And yeah, MJ, you were right. : )

304. Devon - May 16, 2013

#283 – “First reaction: disappointment. Recycling rather than homage. A lot of hardcore Trekkers leaving the theatre muttering “that story made no sense.””

Sure they did……

305. PaulB - May 16, 2013

Spock yelling “Khaaaaaaan!” was laughable. It got laughs in the theater I was at, and it took me completely out of the film.

It’s not quite as bad as Vader’s “Nooooooo!” but it’s awful close.

306. Cody - May 16, 2013

I just saw it and it is excellent. It might be the best Trek film to date, though I’ll have to wait and see if I still feel that way when the initial buzz wears off. I have been a Trek fan since I was young, and it’s so good to see trek thriving again, and in a big way. Thanks Abrams and all of you at Bad Robot for your hard work and dedication.

307. Jack - May 16, 2013

Dirty Harry summed it up best at the beginning of this. This film had no real emotional heft — they telegraphed the absurd final plot twist (handy to have a dead tribble lying around).

There wasn’t enough time for any of it to really sink in. Even the stuff that had the potential to work.

I expected a lot better. JJ’s work is fine. It’s the script. It’ll make boatloads of money, but this is just a stopgap to a better final one, hopefully.

I gave it an ‘okay’ — these guys had really raised my hopes. Otherwise I’d probably have said good, just to be charitable (like the reviewers).

308. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

@282

Maybe things worked out differently between Admiral Marcus and his wife in this time line. The dude became a monster. One can easily imagine all sorts of reasons why, in this time line, she has a British accent. Maybe in the 3rd movie, since Carol is part of the team now, we can learn why she has a British accent instead of an American one.

I think it’s better that Marcus is British-ish in this one, anyway. Not everyone has to be American.

309. Winston - May 16, 2013

I walked out of Star Trek into Darkness.

Let me start off by saying this was not the worst Trek movie ever. Nemesis takes the grand prize. In fact, I think this is a far cry better than Nemesis or Insurrection. I sat through both of those and have watched them a few times since. But I don’t plan on watching Star Trek into Darkness again and I honestly don’t care how it ends.

It’s no secret that my expectations were high. In the latter part of May I read some early reviews that tempered those expectations. I was prepared to be disappointed, but my preparation was not adequate.

I won’t write a full review because I think Devin Farcai’s has already written one that encompasses the bulk of my feelings. (http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/14/star-trek-into-darkness-spoiler-review/)

There were some positives. It’s an attractive film on screen. There are some beautiful visuals and of course the CGI is excellent. The score is solid. The cast does an excellent and Zachary Quinto IS Spock. He embodies the character through and through.

Why did I hate it? As others have written, I thought the plot was sloppy and predictable. I watched until we learned that Khan has “magic” blood. At that point, I decided I had seen enough.

I may sound like the bitter canon trekkie who hates all new Trek. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I enjoyed the 2009 film despite the timeline changes. There were some weak plot points to be sure. But overall, good flick.

I walked out because 1) I didn’t care how it ended. Even more disappointing, you really didn’t need to watch it to know what the ending was going to be. It’s so predictable it’s shocking. 2) I didn’t want my memories of Star Trek II the Wrath of Khan to be in any way intertwined with this movie. As much as I wanted Khan to be the villain of into Darkness, there was no Khan in this screenplay. It was only Khan by name. What a waste of talent. Benedict Cumberbatch is a brilliant actor and could have brought the essence of Khan into JJ’s universe. But that was impossible with the screenplay he was given. It was full of holes – a sinking ship.

The movie is doing well and I have no doubt it will surpass the 2009 film in revenue. I expect they’ll soon begin the planning the third movie in their series. Fortunately, my expectations are now permanently tempered when it comes to JJ Abram’s Trek universe.

And with that… I end with a quote from the real Khan.
“He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares Maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!”

310. Matthias from germany - May 16, 2013

The engineering scene…. well, I think it is a very bold step to use it. For me, it worked well! It has something of old greek drama: The fate! Is it possible to escape from the fate in another timeline? Yes, but at the same time: No! Bold this scene is, because I am sure, they knew, people would say: This is a sign for lack of creativity. But I am sure, they are clever enough to create other enginnering scene-possibilities. The DECIDED to make it exectly this way and I am quite sure, they thought about fate and how it does evolve in that other timeline. Spock and Kirk are bound in friendship in both of the realities!

311. Kenji - May 16, 2013

Here is my quite short review, which will be up at the Georgia Straight (www.straight.com) shortly:

Star Trek Into Darkness
Starring Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, Benedict Cumberbach

In fiction, or so I have heard, there are only seven basic plots.

In the self-contained genre that is Star Trek, there are even fewer. Counting Star Trek Into Darkness, the series has reworked at least three variations of its masterpiece, 1982′s The Wrath of Khan, in which Kirk and the intrepid crew of the USS Enterprise must go to the edge of death – or beyond – to subdue a powerful, vengeance-crazed foe.

In this case, the foe is John Harrison (Benedict Cumberbach, attractively bulked up from his signature role as the best of the current Sherlock Holmeses), a renegade Starfleet officer who has committed an act of terrorism in London that results in a summary death order being issued by the senior Admiral.

Having lost friends in the attack, Kirk (Chris Pine) follows Harrison deep into Klingon territory. Spock (Zachary Quinto) reminds Kirk that execution without trial is murder; Scotty (Simon Pegg) asks when the Starfleet ditched scientific exploration in favour of military agendas.

Will Kirk carry out his orders as a dutiful member of the service? Or will he rebel, dig out the truth, and get it done his own way, because Kirk?

I’m not bothered that STID traffics in formula; Gene Roddenberry consciously patterned his opus after contemporary Western series. However, for those of us who have basically memorized the Trek movies to date, the numerous callbacks and references tend to make the universe seem oddly familiar and narrow. It may be a case where the filmmakers, contrary to the online rantings of the Trekaliban, are actually a little too respectful of Original Series canon.

The insider baseball stuff aside, the movie is a rollicking action event. It is vividly shot and graced with strong performances from a deep cast (Zoe Saldana might be the biggest star in the bunch, playing Uhura as clingy girlfriend; the Bechdel test is not passed). A well-made, somewhat serious minded adventure flick is a rare thing, even one that does not seem quite as deliciously new as JJ Abrams’s 2009 reinvention – which is merely to say that it is not my new favourite popcorn flick of all time.

312. Marja - May 16, 2013

I’m so *glad* to have seen this movie [at last]

I could have done with Spock just screaming “NOOOOO”

Wish you had stuck with Ericsson

Really hope for next film in 2016 please please please

313. Marvin the Martian - May 16, 2013

I wish I could complain that the film is terrible. it’s not. I wish I could praise the film as brilliant. It’s not.

It’s merely adequate, if not overfamiliar.

I had the same feeling walking out of the theater that I did when I saw Oblivion. It’s created from spare parts of other, better movies.

Sad. I really wanted to love this movie.

314. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#309 “As much as I wanted Khan to be the villain of into Darkness, there was no Khan in this screenplay. It was only Khan by name.”

Exactly! Aside from being genetically enhanced, there is NO similarity between Harrison and Khan. We saw TOS Kirk beat Khan in “Space Seed,” but Harrison is VASTLY stronger and more capable than original Khan.

There is no Khan in this film, just an amazingly talented British man playing a character with that name. Cumberbatch deserved an original villain to play.

315. Ceti Alpha 5 - May 16, 2013

Just saw it an hour ago, loved it.
Can’t wait to pick this up on blu-ray in September.

316. Riker's Beard - May 16, 2013

Saw the movie in both 3D and 2D last week when it came out in the uk.,overall, it’s flippin amazing! I was sure he wasn’t Khan so when that was revealed I was like, ok…lets see what they do with this. The death scene is so amazing, the role reversal isn’t cheap at all and using the dialogue from TWOK is perfection (except ZQs khaaaan).
My only real gripe is, hey bones what you doing with that Tribble? That could have been more subtle. I like what they did with kirk, responding to people’s criticism that they didn’t like him in the first film and using that as part of the story. Simon Pegg steals the show and Scotty. Amazing.

317. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

314 – I actually think how Khan beat the shit out of people in this movie is how he originally should have been. Kirk was able to wap Khan with a tube in Space Seed because they had to end the episode somehow, basically.

Where I fail to see Khan is that, in Wrath of Khan – and in Space Seed too – it was all about Khan dueling Kirk in an intellectual battle. And while there is some of that in this movie, both Kirk and Spock had no problem seeing through Khan’s plan. There was no plot by Khan that truly caught them off guard. He was almost all physical. But the mental games just weren’t there I didn’t think.

318. J - May 16, 2013

My complaints:

- Why did Bones need *Khan’s* blood specifically, given that he had 72 additional super-blooded people available at his disposal?

- I didn’t like the Earth-Kronos beaming. Khan could’ve just beamed to a ship in the orbit and go to Kronos using that ship

- Not a big fan of the engineering and the warp core. They should’ve just built a proper engineering/warp core set instead of shooting on-location.

- Thrusters and impulse engines would normally work with the warp core offline

319. Taylor - May 16, 2013

@boborci

Bob, I just got back from the film, and I wanted to say that I have not had that much fun or been that excited leaving a movie in a very, very long time. Thank you very much, to you and the team

320. Randy - May 16, 2013

@boborci RE #67: “We did, however, consider and conceive of the story without K in mind. If you think about it, he could’ve revealed his name was Schmuko with a slightly different back story (super criminal from Federation jail, etc…) and that Marcus used him by threatening other people he cared about (family instead of crew) and the story still stands.”

If this is the case, then why didn’t you have it turn out that Cumberbatch’s character was Joachim or maybe another augment we haven’t met before? It would have been so much more refreshing than just rehashing the plot of “TWOK” with a few details mixed around. Besides, Khan has been adrift in space since 1996 – before the timelines diverged. I’d buy a subtle change in his appearance, but not one this drastic, especially considering Khan is supposed to be of a Sikh background.

I do have to commend you for the interpersonal relationships between the main crewmembers – they were a lot more believable in this film than in the 2009 film (to me). Some of the scenes between Kirk & Spock were excellent, even if I wasn’t a fan of Kirk’s death scene. Also, thanks for making not one but TWO “Deep Space Nine” references – it gets treated like the bastard child of the “Trek” franchise far too often.

In short: even with the stuff I do like about the film, I respectfully disagree with Cumberbatch being cast as Khan. That pretty much killed my enjoyment of it. Hope you don’t hate me for saying so, but that’s how I feel.

321. TaongGagamba - May 16, 2013

First, I LOVE iT!!!

I hated the 3D. I watched in IMAX. There were overlapping images in some scenes as if I were seeeing double. For all the talk about new 3D conversion technology, it still sucks. Please do not do 3D unless you shoot EVERYTHING in 3D.

I had to watch 2D and it was better!

Please Please rectify this problem in your Blu-ray release of the 3D film. No more double seemingly flat images.

Hugs!

322. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

318 – heh, I didn’t think of that of the time but one review I read brought that up and I was like “oh…good point.” I suppose they could give some explanation along the lines of them being in stasis means their platelets are unusable. But then just wake one up (which they actually did!)

323. Aurore - May 16, 2013

“Seriously people, relax. I have blond hair and blue eyes and my last name is Hispanic. I hope none of you would wig out about that as you are with BC playing Khan.”
_________

Of course I wouldn’t.

….So long as you weren’t cast to play a North Indian man, probably a Sikh, in a Star Trek movie. And, no, dying your hair black , for the role, would not cut it either….

Other than that, I have nothing against people with blond hair, and, blue eyes.

I never had any reason to “wig out about” Hispanic names either…except maybe for that one teacher I once had…

:)

Anyway, so, Khan Noonien Singh is really this franchise’s Joker?

I honestly did not know that before .

I guess I do, now.

324. Kenji - May 16, 2013

319

- They didn’t want to wake them up; a life threatening procedure, and then what? You have a supersoldier convict hanging around? They wanted Khan blood. Also, who knows if the stuff is in the other dudes’s blood?

- Yes, but intraship beaming is established as Scottys intellectual property that has been shanghai’d from him by the Fleet’s section 31, which is some sort of Enterprise reference (a lot of fan service in this episode).

- Give us a break. What is proper about made up spaceships.

- True. But the saboteurs are not idiots. The screenplay may not have spelled it out for us, but we can see they knew how to cripple the drive. (Maybe a layer of jeopardy that smelt of technobabble??)

325. Adam E - May 16, 2013

@boborci

Hi, Bob. Just saw “Into Darkness!” Amazing film! My favorite line was, “Bones, what are you doing with that tribble?”

Question: you said a while back that you lied to us once. I’m sure a lot of us assumed it was when you said that Cumberbatch was playing a canon character. We now know that is true! What was it you lied about?

326. Jay Ley (UK Trekkie) - May 16, 2013

***SPOILER REVIEW***

I must say before you read on that I have only seen this movie once, in IMAX in 3D…

On first impressions I would say that I left the movie theatre feeling happy with what I had seen. I thought that the story felt more structured and better edited, and that every actor really upped their game in this film.

One of my main gripes with ST09 was Scotty, I thought Pegg was rubbish (and I’m a Brit)… However, in STID I thought that Pegg was the one actor who really connected with the original character and gave a real performance (with an improved accent also!). So kudos to Simon Pegg for making me love Scotty again (in a purely non-sexual way, not that it matters). Sulu was awesome, Chekov had a good role, Uhura was fab, Bones really is Bones and those one liners got the whole theatre laughing out loud, Kirk was excellent too.

So what gripes did I have with this installment?

1) IMAX 3D – At first I thought it was EPIC, but the novelty soon wore off and it actually became annoying. The screen was perhaps too big, and the 3D mixed with lens flares resulted in a distorted image. I dont know whether it was my position in the theatre but during the bar scene Pine’s 3D head looked more like the Alien he was sat next too in 09 than Jim Kirk… So next time, I’ll see it on normal screen in 2D.

2) Khan – I was so disappointed that it was Khan. I thought that firstly this was revealed far too easily, but secondly, that it was all too predictable. Benedict, it must be said, did twist my arm into liking the film and appreciating the bad guy and his story, but I feel that if it were any other actor, I would have switched off. I must also say, that I think Bob Orci and co really missed a trick with the story… A really cool twist would have been to have ‘John Harrison’ claiming that he is Khan so that the other pods would not be destroyed, but he is actually another one of the augments and the real Khan is still in cryo freeze. When the pods get “destroyed” Harrison would seek revenge for the death of his leader (and people) and go crazy… Then, at the end when he is put back into his cryo tube, the camera could have panned over the other units and KHAN is revealed as being asleep in another tube!! THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME!!

3) TWOK remake scene – A very bold decision guys. A very clever twist having Kirk ‘die’ instead of Spock and it was very emotional. However, having said that, my eyes were rolling slightly due to it being almost word for word the same scene as TWOK!!! I thought this was a little be lazy in the creative writing department, and a huge, perhaps unnecessary gamble. I think you pulled it off for the most part, but it was VERY obvious that Kirk was going to be revived with Khan’s blood (no mystery there from the famed mystery loving director) and Spock yelling KKKHHHAANNNN just made the entire theatre laugh out loud, when they should have been feeling for Spock, having just lost his friend…. there was also so serious palm-facing by us trek geeks at this point and the tuts could be heard from all over the theatre!

4) Minor gripe- Carol Marcus – Why was she British?

5) The score – The music was not as epic, and sort of fizzed out for me.

What I loved??

1) The new warp effect – AWESOME!

2) Pike’s death – Whilst I loved the character, it was a good scene and nice to see Kirk being left on his own, without this father figure.

3) Paul Weller – Arguably his best performance, and whilst it was obvious that he was going to be a bad guy, he played it well.

4) Trek nods – Name dropping Section 31 was cool (they should have been in black though, not blue) and I absolutely loved it when Pine was in Admiral Marcus’s office and you could see the line of Enterprise model ships, and Enterprise NX01 was one of those models – Nice touch!!

5) The big black ship – I liked this!

6) Klingons – Should have had brown eyes, but I thought they looked bad ass, and it was cool to see them re-imagined. I hope they have a bigger part in number 3 (War is coming!)

7) Nimoy – Classy.

Overall I would give this movie a 7/10 and for me it ties with TVH at number three in my favourite Trek movies.

1) FC
2) TWOK
3) STID/TVH
4) TUC
5) TSFS
6) ST09
7) GEN
8) TFF
9) NEM
10) INS
11) TMP

327. AnonymousWasAWoman - May 16, 2013

I honestly loved it. More than I’d expected to.

I was expecting Kirk to be an idiot cowboy as written, saved only by Pine’s charm and dexterity in playing the part. But they gave Kirk moments of real brilliance. Intuitive leaps that turned out to be clever, spot-on, and only half a step behind a villain who’d gained a good head start on everyone else.

I loved Pine and Quinto in 2009; they’re both even better here. They’re fully, wonderfully, honestly inhabiting and owning these characters and these moments. Even the ‘Wrath of Khan’ moment, in which there were so many opportunities to fail spectacularly as an actor that I was watching with more than a little trepidation for every potential pitfall. Seriously, for anyone who does this for a living, it was like watching that guy walk across Niagara Falls on a tightrope. Nervewracking. But they had it. Beautiful, easy chemistry, trust in themselves and each other. It worked, barely, because they are both very, very good. Quinto even pulled off the ‘KHAN’ scream, as well as it was possible to do that.

I am so looking forward to seeing where they go from here, with these characters and others.

328. Matthias from germany - May 16, 2013

yeah, the warp-fx was great!

329. Jay Ley (UK Trekkie) - May 16, 2013

Just one final thought, which I left out from my previous post…

Spock was a little too emotional and blood thirsty for me after Kirk ‘dies’ and overall I thought that he was the weakest character in this movie, because the others upped their game so much…

Having said that the bromance was there, which was nice, and I suppose Spock isnt in a good place right now, mentally.

330. CF - May 16, 2013

@boborci

Overall, I found the movie to be wonderful.

I do have a bone to pick regarding apparent ignorance of the Bechdel Test, considering Star Trek’s illustrious past. It would seem we have reverted a bit. Why was it more important to show how good Dr. Marcus looks in a bra (completely irrelevant to the storyline) than allowing even a quick conversation between her and Uhura?

Dax and Kira pulled it off well without detracting from the overall story. Maybe take it on as a challenge in the next movie. If you do it well, no one will even notice, because it will look just like real life, where women tend to speak to one another.

331. Star Trek: Nemeis blows, is the point - May 16, 2013

@309. “I won’t write a full review because I think Devin Farcai’s has already written one that encompasses the bulk of my feelings”

You can’t write a full review because you walked out of the movie.

332. Werner - May 16, 2013

65. boborci

Hi Bob,
thank you for your time to answer my questions!

I just have some call backs :o)

q:—The Enterprise is hiding submerged—
A: Line of sight necessary given unstable and shifting magnetic field of super volcano on alien planet. That’s why no beaming. Gotta physically get back to the ship
Q: Ok, but why not using the shuttles from Orbit? I can’t see why they should go diving :)

q: —Kahns Torpedoes—
A: because the federation has become a peaceful organization that has lost its edge and eye of the tiger for war. As John says in so many words. As for nobody knowing what’s inside, John clearly says he hid the bodies there and then he was discovered before he could smuggle them out. Marcus KNOWS what’s inside. It’s the ultimate FU to John to blow him up with T filled with his family.
Q: I get that, but how long would it take to manipulate 72 torpedoes … Harrison would need months to do so, wouldn’t he? And – why not wake them all up, if he had so much time to hide them in those weapons? If Harrison had so much freedom to do as he did, nobody would have noticed the reactivation of the rest of his crew until it would have been to late…

q:—Kahn’s blood—
A: everyone is frozen, they could die if awakened improperly as Bones says, and Bones KNOWS John’s blood works. He doesn’t know anything about the others.
Q: So nobody has informed himself about Kahn, after he revealed his name? If somebody had done, they would know that there was a Botany Bay and a crew of geneticly enhanced people on board. This is definitley some “Trekkie”-stuff but for those who know the backstory it may count.
And: Bones pulls one of the crew of Harrison out of his tube in order to stabilize Kirks brain-functions… why not give it a try and test the blood of Kahns fellow?

q:—Uhura saves the day—
a: try telling that to Uhura when the man she loves is down there. She doesn’t lave things to others. And who says she doesn’t have training with a phaser?
Q: It’s just her character… I don’t believe her being a fighter… She’s a com-officer … and I don’t think it should be a decision of love who is send down if so much depends on the success of the mission…

q: —Alternate timeline—
a: We didn’t recreate TWOK at all. pitch both stories next to each other and tell me with a straight face it’s the same story.
Q: Ok, I’m sorry… Sure, the story has it’s own parts, and I liked some them… My point is, that there are some things which might have made the movie even better. I refered to the part where Kirk saves the day while doing the same thing like Spock did in TWOK… I think there was no need to recreate this iconic moment just because – it was already there and somehow predictable.

q: So my point is: Why not creating a story with a bit of depth?
A: Not sure we watched the same movie.
Q: So there is a directors cut which explains more and closes some “bugs” ?! ;-P

Thank you for your patience!!!

Best
Werner

333. J - May 16, 2013

@324: “Give us a break. What is proper about made up spaceships”

What I mean by “proper” is basically “what’s been established in the last 40+ years”. After 40 years we learned how a “proper warp core” should look like! :)

And the entire “transwarp beaming” (which I consider a writers’ block plot device) from ST09 should have been swept under the rug and never mentioned again. Beaming to a ship at orbit would’ve worked juuuuust fine.

Which brings me to another gripe: Earth-Kronos trip seemed instantenous. We don’t know how long it really took in the movie, but ST managed to deal with this issue for ages. A short narrative “Captain’s log, stardate 2259.60. We’ve been on our way to Kronos for three days…” would be sufficient.

334. geodesic - May 16, 2013

I like Cumberbatch.

Did I miss any explanation for a Sihk not being Hispanic? My assumption is that it is implied that he had time to have his appearance altered as part of his new identity.

335. Jim Nightshade - May 16, 2013

I went and saw it at an Imax 3d preview with my brother and sister….All I can say is….incredible!!! Obviously the sold out crowd had to be mostly star trekkies or ers like me….if their reaction is any indication this is gonna be the biggest movie of all time….they laughed at all the great funny witty dialogue….and scenes….they actually clapped cheered when Harrison declared he was KHAN!!
Remember Raider of the lost ark…how the first ten minutes had more action than most full movies back then??

Well STID has SO MUCH non stop specatular 3d action that there only seemed to be 5-10 minutes of non action…ONE SCENE after another…incredible spectacle….Pine called it relentless! Congrats to Bob Orci and Company….Better Looking and more spectacular than any other movie….this sets a new bar for the action spectacle movie…the humor was great…too bad we didnt have more time for our beloved characters….Adm Pikes death came so soon and was very touching with Spock sharing his last moments….anybody remember brainstorm it was kinda like that for Spock I bet….Peter Weller was great as the section 31 admiral….it was obvious he relished his part….and that subject matter more than topical enough…The similiarties to our own times are very real…and makes you think….
They also cheered when they saw Spock Prime however briefly and I think it did serve a purpose in convincing spock how to deal with Khan and second guess him….Spocks dogged pursuit of Khan and taking off the kid gloves handling him thanks to prime spocks warning was just incredible also despite Khans superiority Spock stepped up…and lost control….and Kirk did learn humility and sacrifice so that by the end of the movie…yup he deserved to get the captains seat back…the audience also clapped and cheered a lot at the end of the movie….so I think most Trekkies ers et all are gonna love this movie…not a perfect movie but no movie ever is…but this is an incredible summer popcorn movie…finally at the end of the movie it now looks like the real space exploration will finally begin nex movie…Hope there is a next time and hope JJ is More involved with it than we think….

My only nit picks…doesnt starfleet use shields on buildings that need to be secure?? And yes as a long time Trek fan….the JJ Abrams twist on the reactor scene and use of basically the same dialogue left something to be desired…Kirks death cannot have the same Impact Spocks death did in the original because weve already seen it before….using the same dialogue just kinda broadcast that point….plus the setting up of Khans Blood did kinda broadcast to us that Kirk will be ok by the end of the movie….I also think that because Kirks death and resurrection happened fairly quickly that the impact was reduced considerably from the slower but more emotionally meaningful death and resurrection of spock which took a whole other film to do and of course would not have worked in this super fast super spectacular newer version of Trek…
Now if I had not seen Wrath of Khan like most of the audience non trek fans then none of that would have bothered me at all so it is a fine rewrite of Khan with jj abrams twist in the plot.I understand why its in the movie…My Trek heart still says Wrath of Khan is a better movie… But Im with the audience who basically loved it from beginning to end, that there is so much really awesome character moments along with stunning action, and better looking sets and efx than ANY OTHER MOVIE EVER MADE with Excellent Acting and character interaction….relentless spectacle that is like a roller coaster ride that we have never seen or experienced before in a movie….This film finds a balance between tons of action and the right amount of character depth so it is far superior to the first three star wars movies in every respect…even the look of the movie…realisticlly tech without TOO MUCH TECH everwhere to the point where you dont even care about what you are watching which is how the first 3 star wars movies were…But STID really is the summer movie to end all summer movies and its OUR TREK….I really think this could be one of the biggest movies….nontheless a trek movie…..Bob Orci sir it exceeded all my expectations in almost every way….now what are you guys gonna do for an encore???? Lets hope the promise is fulfilled….A REAL space adventure next time!!! Promise?

336. Aurore - May 16, 2013

“And yeah, MJ, you were right. : )”
________

Many people were right about the identity of the villain….long before Mr. Abrams accepted to direct the sequel ; some were even right a few weeks only after the release of Star Trek ( 2009 ).

…Now, if we are talking about a certain “clue”, a typo in the word “confidence” ( cOnfidence), somewhere on the site ( if I am not mistaken ), if that typo really was a clue, then, *sincere* congratulations are, indeed, due…

:)

337. Star Trek: Nemesis blows, is the point - May 16, 2013

A Sihk is more stereotypically Indian than Hispanic.

However, there is a decent number of non-Indians who have converted to Sihkism. This is why I take less issue with Khan not being portrayed by an Indian actor

@27 “A british guy ruling over India also feels wrong, historically speaking.” Considering Britain ruled over India for the better part of two centuries, not really. Assuming the Augments came to power in the early 90s, India didn’t have it’s independence for 50 years. It would be, historically speaking, feel less wrong as a result, because prior to the rise of nationalism, the Great Powers swapped lands between each other, and in some cases giving them up entirely to independence, only to retake it years later.

338. smegger56 - May 16, 2013

I just need to say this about theEnterprise. LEAVE IT ALONE. She’s a beauty. I really don’t get the hate on the ship. She looks like the big E, but sleeker.

I hope they don’t try and revert it to something previous. This ship looks great as is.

339. Jim McDermott - May 16, 2013

I’m so sick of people that hate on this film because ‘it has no originality.’ For weeks, I’ve listened to this group whine and complain – and when I went tonight and saw it – I was flabbergasted at how GREAT it was!

Not only did it have a fantastic message – it incorporated so many of the TREK values – friendship, loyalty, sacrifice, working through loss towards something greater – it had a surprise cameo from Spock Prime!!! OMG! It had KHAN! WOW!

And all people can do is bitch, “oh how unoriginal.” That’s why you can’t make a movie for the fans. Because all they want is space battles (a la ST2) or THEIR idea. Instead of just going and appreciating the very clear effort that was put here.

I mean – what a labor of love! It was so great, I went out – bought another ticket and saw it again! It was like the people who grew up with these movies wanted to reference possibly the best Star Trek film ever – star trek 2 / star trek 2 – and yet have the alternate timeline twist on things.

It left me hopeful and wanting the next movie!

And what a powerful message: when we are attacked by people who hate us, there will be loss. But ultimately vengeance leads only to ruin and us becoming like those we hate. We should strive to be the people who explore and take risks and who are tolerant.

What an amazing message in this day and age.

@boborci – I got it. Thank you for this movie!

340. Ctrl-Opt-Del - May 16, 2013

@Bob Orci – Question:

Are you really only planning on doing one more film? I only ask as the story you’ve set-up with Into Darkness seems so capable of standing on its own merits that it would seem a waste not to make two more films to finish it off (leaving ST09 as a “pilot” of sorts, followed by a semi-separate trilogy)…

I’ll not pitch stories to you, as I’m sure you get that all the time, but I do have some ideas if you’re interested ;-)

341. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#338″And all people can do is bitch, “oh how unoriginal.” That’s why you can’t make a movie for the fans. Because all they want is space battles (a la ST2) or THEIR idea. Instead of just going and appreciating the very clear effort that was put here.”

You seem to misunderstand the word “originality.” Many of us are upset NOT because the film didn’t include OUR ideas: We’re upset because it contained so much that was ripped off from other places–namely, from TWOK, the novel Dreadnaught, and even ST09.

You can like the movie all you want, but don’t try to defend it as having originality–that is, NEW ideas that aren’t lifted word-for-frakking-word from previous films.

Some complaints about the film may lack merit, but the claims of unoriginality are completely accurate. (Again, before sniping at us again, look up the meaning of “originality.”)

342. Bill Peters - May 16, 2013

I love this Film, I really don’t get fan who hated it, IT IS an good story, it has much to it that is Unexpected and Allows one to think about Possablites, It allowed the Characters to grow and change, It is interesting

I am hoping for Great things in 2016!

343. Mc - May 16, 2013

I do not understand why this movie exists. “Hey, people like Wrath of Khan. Let’s do it again but kind of different but more generic. And with punching.”

A huge universe, and they go to this well again. And it’ll make a ton of money so we’re stuck with more of this nonsense for years to come.

Can’t wait to hear JJ’s Star Wars pitch. “This time, LUKE gets frozen in carbonate!!!1!”

344. Daguerre - May 16, 2013

“Let’s do TWOK again, but take out all the suspense and just make it lots of running and yelling. And we’ll kill characters and immediately revive them, and blow everything to hell but immediately rebuild it.”

345. singularity87 - May 16, 2013

I choose to ignore the fact that this Star Trek has any continuity links to the prior instalments (2009 time travel) and instead think of it as a pure reboot. It makes a lot more sense that way. It pretty much is a pure reboot with so many changes. Cumberbatch’s Khan is a re-imagining of the character every bit as much as Heath Ledger’s Joker was a re-imagining.

I also don’t really care too much about inconsistencies and violation of canon or silly pseudo-science anyway – EVERY instalment of Star Trek has stuff like that and to be honest it would be impossible for writers to be slavish, not to mention tedious when the plots get tied down more and more by it.

Example – if the studio hadn’t ignored much of TNG’s continuity with regard to the Borg (“I, Borg”, “Descent”) then we would never have had First Contact where the Borg were suddenly very different. And Picard straightforwardly hated them rather than tacking to the moral high ground – which actually made a lot more sense given his assimilation. This is one of the best films in the pre-2009 canon.

And if the nature of the androids from TOS hadn’t been overlooked, we’d never have had Data!!

With regard to Into Darkness I thought it was a great film. I wish it was the start of a TV show since I felt at the end, and now I want to tune in for the 5 year mission. That isn’t a criticism – it’s a different format with a wholly different scope.

346. Michael - May 16, 2013

love bob orci’s answers trying to defend his product. the tone in which he does however proves the arrogance he, damon lindelof and the rest of bad robot have. Have fun remaking Mission Impossible and Transformers again an calling them sequels. But best of luck to your future sir. Hopefully FAR Away from Star Trek.

347. PaulB - May 16, 2013

ST09 was a great movie with a few really dumb parts. STID is a dumb movie with a few really great parts.

348. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 16, 2013

343. Daguerre
“Let’s do TWOK again, but take out all the suspense and just make it lots of running and yelling. And we’ll kill characters and immediately revive them, and blow everything to hell but immediately rebuild it.”

I realise this was not your intention (and my comment has nothing to do with STID), but as I read your last sentence I immediately thought of ‘Day of the Dove’ ;-)

349. thomoz - May 16, 2013

With all respect to the writers – who are indeed pretty good at what they do – the scene with Kirk & Scotty being lifted whole (dialogue included) lifted from another film was a bad idea, and it was a mistake casting this particular villain with that particular (very talented) actor. These problems weakened the film for me considerably.

I hope the plot of the next film resembles nothing that came before in the Trek universe.

A little wink, like Giacchino’s musical quote from TOS at the end of the film Right before Kirk slaps Bones’ shoulders) is all the backwards referencing you need. In dialogue, it’s no more than name dropping our favorite nurse.

350. Disinvited - May 16, 2013

#342. Mc – May 16, 2013

Odd you should mention SW. JJ was on JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE last night ostensibly to promote STID but you could tell the Mouse owns that show because it was quickly turned into service promoting JJ’s STAR WARS with William Shatner joining in on a comedy routine with audience members pitching SW ideas.

351. NCC-73515 - May 16, 2013

“English! I thought I dreamed hearing it!”
- Khan, Space Seed (TOS)

352. Lazarus Nine - May 16, 2013

It was a thoroughly enjoyable film. There was some epically good acting on the part of Pine and Quinto, and I found their scenes to be the most powerful of the film. The plot presented itself as watertight, but I personally found it a bit of a stretch to bring Khan into the storyline. So, Starfleet sends a bunch of ships (which ones, the prototype?) out into the galaxy as a precautionary measure due to the events in the 2009 film. They find Khan and crew and somehow manipulate Khan into working with them until he cracks. Fair play. Do what you must, I suppose. Unlike most people, I didn’t find Cumberbatch’s performance to be particularly earth shattering. It was actually a little comedic at times, such as when he first reveals that his name is ‘KKHAAAN’. Couldn’t he have just said his name? Why all the portent, as if Kirk and Spock even knew who the f* Khan was at that point. It was clearly for the audience and just a bit awkward in my opinion.

I am very pleased that the ending of this film suggests that we’ll actually explore new worlds, aside from the single set piece of Kronos and a few red bushes (I really enjoyed the opening sequence, by the way). This was a necessary film, because it developed the characters to a point beyond early 20s angst, and for that, it’s a big win. The plot is throwaway, but what this film did much better than the previous one is that it spent time slowing down in places. Where it did, it shined. The emotional impact was pretty epic. Just give us a bit more McCoy and drop the one-liners. Kelly was dynamic in the character and Urban can be too – please just give him something to work with. Oh, and the underwear scene WAS unnecessary.

353. Disappointed - May 16, 2013

So they don’t need to make the next movie the search for Kirk… Does that mean we will jump straight to a rehash of the voyage home?

The defending of this unoriginality is laughable, and the comments on here that amount to “if you are a Star Trek fan you have to like this and shut up” are really irritating.

I have been watching Star Trek for as long as I can remember and I was worried about Trek 09 but when I watched it I really enjoyed it (repeated viewings have really only made me more annoyed at lens flares). That movie got me excited about getting to see new things from this crew. Then we get Khan again (which they should have left alone for us to enjoy in the episode and movie we have already seen him in), and a whole scene of TWoK lifted for this movie (“oh but this time it is Kirk dying so how dare you criticize this, it is completely different. You obviously aren’t a Star Trek fan”)

354. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

@345. Michael

haha better not. Star Trek without these people is like……the stupid shit we had before!

355. johnd - May 16, 2013

Question to fans who are panning the film because of the introduction of Khan (such as myself) and lifting of a scene from an earlier work:

Does anyone watch and love Sherlock? Why is it okay when Moffat uses an original Conan Doyle story with a twist that fits his modern show, but it’s not okay for that to be done with Star Trek?

356. shadow - May 16, 2013

Star Trek Intro Darkness was a great action film. In fact, after the silent scene with Mickey the Idiot (little Doctor Who reference there for Noel Clarke) which was poignant (and got two important plot points in!) it did not let up. Which is great if you’re trying to keep the general movie going audience from realizing they’re watching a Star Trek movie. And that’s really the point isn’t it? They gave us fans great nods and what not, but the point of the movie is to make it accessible to everyone and have them enjoy it on some level. And don’t say they didn’t attempt to cater to us too because they did. I appreciate that, but you can’t make everyone happy. Here’s my take on why some of us are not entirely pleased.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved the movie! But after months of claiming the John Harrison is NOT KAHN and that he was some new great villain and rogue section 31 starfleet officer, to have him be Kahn was a slap in the face. I was finally ready to accept something brand new, something exciting. And yet the movie was filled with stale plot points. I realize it’s hard to make an original movie in this universe. You have to have a space battle, you need character interactions, every story has been done thrice over. Maybe the best you could do is rework preexisting stories and make them your own, I don’t know. Personally I love the ongoing Star Trek comic series that retools TOS episodes in the alternate timeline. But to have you do it in a feature length movie was a let down. You assured us that it wasn’t Kahn. If you had said it was Kahn I would’ve been more understanding. Then you had your own twist on the reactor scene, which was great. It’s fun to see the parallels between the timelines. But this was set in 2259 if I followed the movie correctly, Jim Kirk barely had command over his ship, he hadn’t been on his 5 year mission, he was too young to have the chair. He hadn’t developed the bond with his crew in the same way we had yet to fully develop our bond with his character and then killing him like that left us somewhat empty. These characters are not the prime timeline characters you try and remind us of that every chance you get and then to try and tug at our emotional heart strings in an attempt to evoke the similar emotion we had to Spock’s death in TWOK was cheap. I admit I felt something during that scene, but not has heavily as seeing Spock die for the first time, or the tear I shed when Data sacrificed himself while saving Picard in Nemesis. I’m 24, I grew up on TNG, Data’s death meant something to me. I admit when I first saw Spock’s death when I was probably somewhere between 3-7, it wasn’t as strong of an impact because I didn’t have that strong connection with the TOS crew like I do now.

Making Spock yell Kahhhnnnnnn was where I hit my limit of accepting the allusions to TWOK. Like I said, the reactor scene was still touching, if not done a movie or two too early, and then you had to ruin it with KAAAAHHHHHNNNNN.

Things I did enjoy:
Alice Eve as Carol Marcus, she was charming and I can see how Kirk fell in love with her in the prime timeline. I thought she would be an agent working for her father

Any scene with McCoy in it, except for his metaphors. One would’ve sufficed… and I know the writer’s (or was it JJ) addressed it because Karl Urban brought it up, but he brought it up for a reason. I absolutely love Urban as McCoy, but his voice is too deep to convey McCoy’s heart. Or maybe it’s the writing. DeForest Kelley’s Bones was a grumpy curmudgeon, but he was the heart of the crew. I marathoned the previous 11 movies and a handful of TOS/TNG/TAS episodes before seeing the movie (anything with the original cast) and he shined. TWOK when he’s holding Kirk back yelling “No, you’ll flood the whole compartment!!” brings chills to my spine because he’s just so raw in the moment. It might be because Urban is doing an accent so he over thinks it? But Kelley is just 100% raw emotion. “I was desperate to save him, he was our last, best hope for the universe…” I feel like either those types of lines were missing or he only tapped into the witty serious side of McCoy. Like when he tells Kirk that Spock would’ve just left him to die.

The NX-01 was in there! Next to the Kelvin… I did not like that ship personally. I prefer my Trek ships to have an even number of nacelles and I recall reading in a TNG technical manual that the two nacel configuration is the optimal one. But I guess that was discovered 10 years after this movie occurred (2269). But the inclusion of the NX-01 does help me bridge the gap in believing that this timeline only began it’s deviation when the Narada appeared.

All the little winks at the audience were great! Especially the lines pertaining to the prequel comic and the video game (which I haven’t bought, but still). In that regard I thought it was interesting Uhura was ready to go save Spock yet again in the intro. Given she’s done it twice now in the comics.

I liked the potential of Kirk and Kahn teaming up. I honestly thought it would go that way. They take down Admiral Marcus together and then there’s not Kahn trying to conquer the Earth, just a mutual understanding between the two of them. A more evolved Kahn maybe. By the end of TWOK, he became so one dimensional it was sad. While it lasted, the potential to change Kahn’s story was nice.

I thought it was nice for casual fans for you to add Spock Prime so you could clarify why he didn’t just debrief the timeline about the future and such. I know some people were griping about that. Although quite a waste of Leonard Nemoy’s cameo just to tie up a loose thread like that.

Kirk pleading for the life of his crew. That was fantastic.

The D4 class bird of Prey!!

Things I hope are changed for the next movie/my wish list:
A story that doesn’t recycle old plots or characters.
McCoy being the heart of the crew, not Kirk, Spock, or Uhura.
Kirk and Marcus get it on/she gets pregnant or reveals she is
An enemy ship that is not black
If you have to reuse an old plot point: Tholians and their web. Maybe a Gorn movie. giant lizards should be big by the next installment.

Questions I have:
Was the Vengance capable of Trans-warp speeds? Or was it just because the Enterprise is a constitution class starship that they were able to catch up?
If the two ships were fighting by Earth’s moon, why did none of the other ships at Starbase 001 not attempt to intervene? We see at least one vessel docked. Is it because most of the Earth based Captains and first officers were killed the previous day?
If Kahn’s blood had regenerative powers (I’m going to assume the other people’s blood didn’t work because they were cyrogenically frozen and thus their blood was frozen as well?) then why didn’t he save his wife in TWOK with his blood when she died? Also I McCoy able to bring people back from the dead now that he’s synthesized Kahn’s blood into a serum? Also, did they bother reviving anyone else who died on the ground or on the ships that day?

I just wanted to reiterate, I loved the movie, up until Spock yelled Kahn. I thought it was too early in the series for the death of Kirk to really mean something. It was still a great ride, I was hoping you would take the unsurprising twist and put a real twist on it. It was interesting to see the events of TWOK play out when the roles were reversed, but again, I think that would’ve been better in the comics. The movie is a great action movie with many nods to Trekkies and Trekkers alike. You can’t please everyone. Maybe that’s why I’m disappointed, because it feels like you tried to cater to everyone, and that makes us feel a little less special. But that way it’ll rake in more money and allow you to keep making pretty decent films despite my complaints. I’ll definitely be seeing it again this weekend! Cheers and thanks to the Trek writers who frequent this site.

357. Hat Rick - May 16, 2013

Just a quick thought: Terrific homages to the original series of films. I thought the idea of Scotty fouling up the USS Vengeance was a great homage to Star Trek III: The Search for Spock!

358. BatlethInTheGroin - May 16, 2013

I saw it last night. It’s OK. Not great. Not bad. And not a very original story–it’s the third revenge/terrorism film in a row. I wish the writers would do something more original next time. Plus, it has a lot of loopy logic issues (mostly involving Khan’s supermen and the cryotubes), and some downright groan-worthy elements (Khan’s magical blood, for instance, as well as Spock yelling “KHAAAAAN!”). The first third of the film is actually quite brilliant, but then the (obvious and telegraphed) Khan reveal happens, at which point things start falling apart fast. I enjoyed it… but a lot should have been done differently. This isn’t a film with a lot of depth, even though it apparently wants to be, and even though the writers seem to think it is–it’s basically a popcorn flick that is more self-impressed than it deserves to be. I’d give it a B-minus at best, but I will say this: I enjoyed it more than I expected to. Still, it should have been better, for all the hype leading up to it. The cast is uniformly fantastic, and Abrams is a great director, so I believe they COULD do a great Star Trek film. Unfortunately, he’s working with writers who don’t have a history of telling logical, well-plotted stories, or of delivering an emotional impact without then ruining it by going over-the-top. The LOST finale comes to mind, as does Prometheus and the Transformers fiascos. Hopefully, I’ll like it more upon my second viewing.

359. KirksLove - May 16, 2013

Just watched it again. It’s even better the second time. Al the details. Plot holes don’t matter.
Cumberbatch’s acting is out of this world. Should get the franchise an Oscar nod. And when this happens, oh, how all you trekkers will love him.

360. Unbel1ever - May 16, 2013

357. KirksLove – May 16, 2013

“Cumberbatch’s acting is out of this world. Should get the franchise an Oscar nod.”

As much as I like Cumberbatch’s acting, there’s no chance that is going to happen :)

361. Trekman_dave - May 16, 2013

@boborci – Please tell me that after this set up Khan will return in the next film? Please

362. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 16, 2013

@355. Hat Rick

Seconded. Here’s another one: McCoy tinkering with a photon torpedo – ST:TUC

It’s a shame some people got hung up on the WOK reimagining (I was completely fine with it except that scream), but it’s impossible to please everyone when you are trying for such a diverse audience. Hopefully, enough people will have been pleased enough by STID that we will see more Star Trek on the big (and maybe little) screen.

363. Jai - May 16, 2013

I posted this comment a little while ago, but I’m guessing the article links I included must be triggering Trekmovie’s filters (my original comment has disappeared), so I’m posting this again but with the links removed.

I’m in Britain and I saw “Star Trek Into Darkness” last weekend. There are some issues with the story that become increasingly apparent once the adrenaline and excitement have subsided and you’ve had a few days to think about it.

Like Winston said in #309, Devin Farcai has thoroughly listed the main problems. I wouldn’t express it as harshly as Devin, but he’s basically right.

Plot holes aside, I was really enjoying the first half of STID and would have given it a solid 8.5/10…until the moment John Harrison claims he’s Khan. When I saw the movie, at that point half the audience started derisively laughing and the other half groaned in disappointment. I doubt JJ Abrams, Bob Orci & co were aiming for either of those reactions.

Trekmovie regulars know I’m a North Indian Sikh, so you can guess my own reaction to the “big reveal”. While I was watching the movie, it totally threw me out of the story and I spent the rest of it feeling a mixture of disbelief, disappointment and increasing irritation. But I stuck with it, thinking “This is a red herring, there must be some clever twist”.

Right until the end credits, I expected some sign, some hint, some statement showing John Harrison was lying about being Khan, or at least that he’d undergone surgery/genetic modification to change his appearance and hide his identity. But no. Nothing. Nothing at all.

The problems with all this go a lot further than the issue of Khan’s racial background — although that’s obviously the biggest problem of all — because most of his personality, philosophy and behaviour was “Khan In Name Only” too. This goes much further than the ludicrous notion of Khan describing himself as a “savage” or kicking an injured woman.

Even Khan’s backstory was butchered; referring to his life on Earth 300 years previously, Spock claimed Khan was a “war criminal” guilty of “mass genocide” against everyone he viewed as “inferior”. Literally every part of that statement completely contradicts what was established by Kirk, Scotty and McCoy when they discussed the historical records about Khan in “Space Seed”. In fact it very accurately describes *Colonel Green* in Trek canon, not Khan himself.

If the situation is as it appears, the whole thing makes a mockery of JJ and Bob Orci’s remarks about being aware of pre-Nero-incursion established canon and the need to maintain it (or words to that effect).

The only plausible explanation for all this is “John Harrison” was pretending to be Khan (as an “I am Spartacus!” tactic or for some diabolical reason), with the real Khan still frozen in one of the cryotubes, to be revealed in Star Trek 3. Unfortunately, absolutely nothing in STID shows this is what is really going on — and Bob Orci’s own comments upthread reinforce this.

It’s as though Christopher Nolan and his team had made a big deal about maintaining continuity and canon after “Batman Begins” (especially if that movie had explicitly mentioned Lucius Fox’s African-American background), and also insisted Lucius Fox wouldn’t appear in “The Dark Knight”…but replaced Morgan Freeman with Michael Douglas in “TDK”, completely changed Fox’s personality and most of his backstory, depicted major characters in “TDK” making statements about Fox that completely contradicted statements in “Batman Begins”, and then claimed they were basing the new depiction of Fox on some early draft pre-dating “Batman Begins”. And actually expected people to blindly accept all that.

Benedict Cumberbatch’s performance in STID was outstanding as *a* genetically augmented supervillain. Cumberbatch was fantastic. But no way in hell was that character Khan Noonien Singh. He didn’t even need to be described as such – it would have made no difference to the story if he’d been one of the other 72 frozen Augments (in fact it would have made much more sense).

I know some people here will defend JJ and Bob Orci for all this, and there’s no point in me arguing with you. But this is a clear case of racial whitewashing in a major Hollywood movie franchise – probably one of the worst examples in decades, and unprecedented for Star Trek.

What’s even more disappointing is that Bob Orci has come on this thread, admitted Khan has indeed been whitewashed, and has written a bunch of excuses to “explain” it. Despite all the intellectual and moral arguments against pulling this kind of stunt in 2013, many of which have been repeatedly discussed on Trekmovie during the past couple of years. And despite JJ and Bob Orci’s insistence that nothing is supposed to have changed prior to Nero’s incursion in ST09 (the point at which the timelines are supposed to have diverged), which would include Khan’s race, appearance, personality and backstory.

What a narrative. I never expected this. Not in 2013, not from JJ Abrams and especially not from Bob Orci.

364. Jai - May 16, 2013

^^Ah, I see my original comment is back, at least for the moment (currently #354). Check out that comment if you want to see the article links I’m referring to.

365. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

The first hour of the movie was fantastic.

The characterizations and interactions were spot on and did a great job of exposing Kirk’s arrogance as a serious flaw that would have consequences. The exchanges between Kirk and Spock following Spock’s ”betrayal” of Kirk in his report felt authentic and honest as growing pains in their emerging friendship. Like others, I felt the second half of the film rushed their friendship too much. The Kirk death scene was competently done, and the ”I’m scared, Spock” line was particularly poignant. But like others pointed out, Spock’s KHAAAN scream completely undid the good work earlier in the scene. While the scene may have been intended to signify an emerging friendship tragically lost, rather than the tragic loss of an established friendship, I still felt it came off as forces, notwithstanding the excellent performances of Pine and Quinto.

Everything to do with the Klingons in this movie was BRILLIANT. Just the visuals alone of the Klingons was well done. And this is where my disappointment began to grow. The Klingon’s would have made amazing adversaries. Given that we haven’t really seen Klingons as the bad guys since the TOS movies, it’s refreshing to see them as villains again, and I feel JJ and co have missed a huge opportunity here.

Khan is not the main villain of TOS, the Klingons are. Thus if JJ and co were looking to make their ”Dark Knight” of the trilogy, then the Klingons should have been the villain of choice. Not Khan. Given all the foreshadowing of a looming conflict with the Klingons in this movie, it seems almost impossible that they won’t be in the 3rd movie, hopefully they will be the primary villains in the next one, and if it is to celebrate Trek’s 50th, I can think of no better known villain (to trek fans and non-trek fans alike).

(Also wouldn’t surprise me if we see Genesis in the next one given Dr. Marcus is now on the crew, and the Klingons were involved in this in the prime universe).

Back to this movie’s villain. Unfortunately for me, Khan was a huge disappointment. Cumberbatch gives a good performance, though it wasn’t as groundbreaking as some people are making it out to be, and I even felt it was OTT in places. Too intense all the time.

In addition, BobOrci wrote a message here that if you changed the character’s name and backstory (an escaped jail prisoner), it would not alter the movie much. Well isn’t that a HUGE ISSUE! If you took Joker out of the Dark Knight and replaced him with Bane, the whole movie would be different. This admission from Orci reinforces the fact that Cumberbatch did not HAVE to be Khan. And that he made far more of an impact as John Harrison than he did Khan Noonien Singh. A waste of a great character.

The visuals and production values are of course fantastic, but when you blow $185m on a movie, you expect nothing less. And the combat action did seem to blur by.

One thing I BEG of you to change for the next movie. TONE DOWN THE DAMN MUSIC! It’s OTT ALL the time.

Overall as a movie, It wasn’t as great or as bad as some people are saying. It didn’t blow me away, nor have me reaching for my pitchfork. I’d give it 6/10. Personally, I think Trek09 was far better. And I hope instead of going for another heavy toned movie, they recapture the swashbuckling, adventure tone of Trek09.

366. Vince - May 16, 2013

I saw the movie last Monday. A few weeks before I read the spoilers and was somewhat annoyed about Kahn, Kirks death and revival.
However after seeing it, I have to say – whatever, IT WAS AWESOME!!!
Sure Kahn wasn’t necessary, but this way he was at least used with a nice spin (what else did you guys want? Another space seed?).
I also really liked the death scene, very emotional and nicely done (I would have liked some radiation burns on Kirk though).

@boborci, I have only one question…as a scientist working at synchrotrons and particle colliders, I would really like to know whether you used some real-world machine for the new Warp-core, and if not what influenced you?

Did anyone else notice the model of the Vengeance in Adm. Marcus office?

367. Damian - May 16, 2013

Wow, reading some of the attacks here makes me ashamed to be a Star Trek fan. If you think this was the best Star Trek film ever made and never could be beat. Good for you, glad you enjoyed the ride. If you thought it was rotten and should be destroyed and forgotten for all eternity, it’s a free country, never see it again and use hipnosis to purge it from your memory.

I think you’ll find many fans (and most of us on this site are Trek fans–or you wouldn’t be hear) probably will fall somewhere in the middle.

But to actually go on the attack against someone posting here because they don’t happen to agree with your opinion is ashame, and dare I say not very Trekkie.

368. Unbel1ever - May 16, 2013

365. Damian – May 16, 2013

“But to actually go on the attack against someone posting here because they don’t happen to agree with your opinion is ashame, and dare I say not very Trekkie.”

I fully agree.

369. Enterprise Ensign #4 - May 16, 2013

Okay – I’ve had time to sleep on it and wanted to chime in. (I posted a few things last night, but am more awake now. Lol)

First, the film overall was fantastic. I thought that the actors really nailed the characters. Not that they hadn’t in the 2009 film, but in this one they were even better and I didn’t think that was possible. One of the issues that I had with almost EVERY previous Trek film was that it felt like another episode. To some that might not matter, but if people are going out to the movies and paying top dollar for them, it should feel like a MOVIE and this one definitely delivers.

I loved so many of the character moments. the entire argument scene in the ship over Kronos – brilliant!! The back and forth was utterly entertaining. SO many Kirk-isms, the flirting, the banter with Spock, the raw emption when Pike dies. Pine really nails the role. Spock, embracing more of his human side than Prime Spock. Quinto brings a levity to Spock making him both the Spock that we know and love while making the role his own. Both Nimoy and Quinto should be proud.

There were so many little homages to the franchise placed here and there. The NX-01 model (that looked EXACTLY like the one in the Prime universe.), the other Enterprise as depicted in the painting on the TMP Enterprise’s recreation deck, the tribble, I even loved that the uniforms now have the little triangle shape that was seen on the underside of the Enterprise’s saucer section in TOS.

I think the only homage that I had trouble with was the reactor scene. The audience giggled and laughed at many points during it, and I’m not exactly sure that that’s what the writers/director were going for. There were still moments of emotion as things progressed so that also may have been what made it feel, just… odd… This feeling may change when I see the movie again!

I was also a bit disappointed that the Kirk death solution was pretty blatantly obvious, much like the resurrection of Data in B4′s brain was PAINFULLY obvious in Nemesis. Personally, I would have tried to figure out a way to have McCoy come up with a solution as things were happening instead of foreshadowing it in the manner that it was. It’s called “foreshadowing” because it’s not meant to be obvious. This was just foreGLARING in my opinion.

There were lens flares in this one, but they didn’t feel as omnipresent or obtrusive as they did in 2009. Maybe I’m just used to them??

LOVED the Klingons. Wish there had been more involvement with them. Maybe in the next flick. The Klingons looked alien and much more REAL than ever before. The eyes!! Were those lenses in the actor’s eyes or his real ones??

Visually I thought this movie was absolutely stunning. The Enterprise. THE ENTERPRISE!! We have our starship again. Yes, they still had the Budweiser plant as engineering, but it was supplemented by an actual warp core this time. And WHAT A CORE IT WAS!! DEFINITELY not disappointed with this one. Gone are the kitchen light fixtures powering the ship as in D and E. For me, this was a believable engineering section. And the ship finally FELT big. The areas where you could see several decks at the same time… LOVED that.

Khan, yah, I’m in the “couldn’t they have created an entirely original foe?” camp. But, with that said, I enjoyed what they did with the character. I thought Cumberbatch was superb in the role. It was a nuanced performance that I was captivated by, especially the brig scene with Kirk. So many underlying subtexts going on in his head. He really made you feel the depth of his character. Amazing!

The bottom line for me is this: Into Darkness is a thoroughly enjoyable film. I was NEVER bored. Visually stunning. Acting was better than any previous film, and I’m a HUGE Patrick Stewart fan! It had many “moments” that I loved. The writers can never satisfy everyone. It’s impossible because Trek is too big and frankly means a little too much to some people. (And I can say this because it means a little too much to me too. Hell, it’s the reason I moved from Michigan to Los Angeles back in 1993 and DS9 paid a few of my bills!) EVERY story ever written has plot holes if you look hard enough for them. If you’re one of those people, then you wouldn’t be happy regardless of what was on the screen. If you enjoy Trek, then you will likely be happy with the ride that you’re taken on in this feature. Cudos to you JJ Abrams, Bob Orci, Damon Lindelof, Alex Kurtzman and the rest of the cast and crew of the film. In the eyes of this long time Trek fan, you did a great job. To the rest of the fans, so see it and enjoy!

370. Dismayed - May 16, 2013

@boborci !

The dreadnought! Did you play Starfleet Battles as a kid? The dreadnought was the most awesome ship type in that game. In the early years fans begged to see it on screen… Once heard a rumor that Roddenberry hated the idea because it was just too warlike for his universe. I think he would have approved of it in this film though – made sense with it being a rogue Section 31 creation.

I love the fact that you may be one of the only other people on the planet that seems to have read old TOS books or played games lol. Loved the katric arc reference in 2009. Now if only you could work in an old FASA reference to the Klingon Herk. :)

This movie was great. I’ve waited my whole life to see a whiz bang Trek movie in 3D that satisfied both the Trek and movie fans in me. From a movie writing / development standpoint the whole thing makes complete sense to me why you chose to do what you did. I mean I don’t even have to ask I know why. Thanks for that.

371. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 16, 2013

364. Vince

I understand they used equipment at the National Ignition Facility at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California, USA as the actual warp core.

372. LtSheridan - May 16, 2013

#117 taken seriously by who? Not a large chunk of Trek’s fanbase thats for sure. The general movie going audience? Meh, i’ve never been worried about the popcorn munching crowd.
If you are saying they’ve made Trek relevant for a mass audience by making it largely irrelevant to much of Treks traditional audience then i’d agree with you.
——————————–
Without the general audiance we’d would never have any new Trek movies…”a large chunk of the Trek fanbase” is not large enough for make new movies profitable. I’m in that fanbase and I want to see a BIG movie, not another episode made for the big screen. Episodes are for TV.
Without JJ and crew we’d end up with movies like Nemesis that were trying too hard to attract the general audiance when the people making it didn’t understand what the general audiance was– the odd mixutre just made it a mess.
2009 Trek brought Trek into the present at long last and I’m looking forward to sitting back and enjoying Into Darkness.

373. gavabot - May 16, 2013

I’m sure this is going to get lost in the wall of text, but here is my peanut-gallery review…

Either I’m getting older or this is the first truly middle-of-the-road Trek movie. It was brilliantly paced, had great action, and felt VERY human. All-in-all, a great summer blockbuster, and space adventure.

Was it a great Star Trek movie? Not quite.

Here are my nit-picks…

This Villain:
He could’ve been anyone…or at least any augment. The need to make him specifically Khan was unnecessary and a trivial fan-service.

Assuming this Khan is the same Khan that was floating around in the Botany Bay as in the prime universe before it diverged into this new one, it’s clear that he is nothing like that man. He has none of his mannerisms or his ethnicity. I found this to be very confusing…

How the hell could the Enterprise be that close to the neutral zone without a Klingon patrol finding them? Why doesn’t the Klingon homeworld have ANY orbital defense/patrols? That was a HUGE stretch… The crashed moon was a nice touch though.

Also, why is the crew getting ready for a 5-year mission when they should be getting ready for war with the klingons??? Seriously?

That’s all for now…

374. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@352. Disappointed:
Agreed and saddened. What they think is originality or fresh and new clearly isn’t. The body of work for the bad robot team, into darkness now included, shows nothing but average cookie cutter productions. Star Trek 2009 was a valiant effort they are not likely to duplicate again.

353. JohnRambo – “haha better not. Star Trek without these people is like……the stupid shit we had before!”

you are just proving all the points against you correct with silly comments like that.

@345. Michael:
when you say “FAR Away” do you mean Far Far Away…..in a galaxy a long time ago? ;)

375. STFan - May 16, 2013

I really loved this movie… but there is one thing that kind off bothered me… what was up with the distances and sizes?

For example, when the Enterprise warps to earth, they get shot out during warp and land 20.000 km from the moon. That would put them 420.000 km from earth at most. At warp 1, which is speed of light, this trip would take additional 1.4 seconds. So, when were they planning on stepping on the brakes?

And then the size of the exterior/interior of the Enterprise. If I remember correctly, at one point Khan says that the Vengeance is 3 times bigger then the Enterprise. From the scene where the Vengeance crashes on Alcatraz, I would think that the ship is about 800 meters long (since the island is 500 meter across according to wikipedia). That would make the Enterprise less then 300 meters long. In this view, how does something so large like the engineering room, or that reactor room fit into such a small ship? Does the Federation now use Timelord technology? :)

I wonder if this movie hat scientific advisors in the production process. If not, a soon to be finished phd offers his services for the next one :D

@364
In one scene, where Scotty stands infront of the core, it kind of resembled laser based fusion experiment where you have a lot of lasers focusing on one point to get enough energy to induce fusion.

376. gavabot - May 16, 2013

I also liked how they used Leonard Nimoy’s real hair in this one and not a wig.

377. Moputo Jones - May 16, 2013

My main beef with STID is the same one I had with ST09 – transwarp beaming. The idea of beaming from Delta Vega onto a ship at warp speed is hard enough to believe, but Harrison beaming from Earth all the way to Qo’nos? What do you even need starships for?

My second issue with with Khan’s blood curing death. So does this mean that citizens of the Federation are immortal now? How hard would it be to synthesize the properties of Khan’s blood and then pass it out to all doctors?

Other than that, IMHO STID is the best Trek movie.

378. TerranGuy93 - May 16, 2013

The film is visually beautiful and well acted.

The story is a jumbled mess of poorly paced hack writing that is mostly just a mash up of Trek 09 and Wrath of Khan.

The biggest issue I take with the film is the rushed feel of it all. It covers no new ground, doesn’t develop nearly anyone very well, and pointlessly rehashes old ideas. And it has plot holes big enough to fly the Narada through.

The film for me is near the bottom of the Trek list for me because its nothing fresh or interesting.

And what really grinds my gears is that the story could easily have done one of a million new options and wouldn’t have bothered moviegoers or myself.

The Robert April story would have been much better. An unseasoned Captain rising to the challenge to fend off a rogue commander of a bygone Enterprise. Someone who knows their rules, their protocols. Heck, it would have provided a great side story for Spock learning to bend the rules later on.

Honestly, I am severely disappointed in the writers and Abrams for rebooting the entire franchise just to rehash old ideas for no reason when a new idea would have worked so much better.

While Trek 09 was in the upper regions of my list, Trek Into Darkness sits above TMP and TFF, watchable popcorn entertainment but nothing interesting about it.

379. Creed - May 16, 2013

boborci it is very convenient to have spock prime say he has made a vow of silence but let him use things when it suits him. Is he going to sit by when the V’Ger comes back? When the Whale Probe turns up? Will he give the Federation a heads up about the Borg? About the Dominion? The idea that he wouldn’t share any knowledge about the dangers that are out there given that he is in an alternate reality and will not change the course of history for his own timeline is obscene, surely? He could help to prepare the federation (and other groups) for so much, the idea that he shouldnt intefere with ‘destiny’ is silly, if he believes in destiny then wasn’t it his destiny to end up in this timeline at this point with all the knowledge he has too?

The transwarp beaming formula he brought back has already changed things enormously, the ability to beam from Earth to Kronos, from a stationary planet to a starship in warp speed?! Confiscated or not, evidently the technology is available given that Khan used it and this timeline has already taken a massive turn away from his, with the loss of vulcan and the consequences it has lead to.

380. lwr - May 16, 2013

Well….
Saw STID in IMAX 3-D last night.
8:00pm show in Owings Mills, Md.

Being a Star Trek fan since the first time I saw the TOS episode “Paradise Syndrome” on a Friday night in 1969, I have been to the first showing of every trek movie and series since.

Heck, I even remember while my friends were screaming about a new Led Zeppelin tour coming about in 1919, I wanted to instead go
Down to the Air and Space Museum in DC just to get a glimpse of the wonder of the world premiere of ST-TMP!!

I was a subscriber to Starlog magazine just for the ST movie updates and vividly remember DeForest Kelley’s “Vengeance of Khan” quote of, “This is Star Trek One”.

I took every phone of the hook when ST-TM premiered on ABC salivating over the “15 minutes of never before seen footage”.
My first video tapes were the VHS version of ST-TMP and ST2, purchased for my Beta Max(LOL!!)

I also purchasing the “All Trek, All day” tickets to the Historic Senator Theater in Baltimore just to get a glimpse of the teaser trailer for ST6!!
I sat in a Marley Station Mall “private showing” of ST09 the night before the release (back in the old days they had to assemble the movie and run it once to make sure there were no glitches) with my wife, 2 adult sons, teenage son, and my preteen daughter.

So of course we were there last night and all i can say is that it was a great action, adventure, summer, popcorn flick.

The opening sequence was amazing. From the Paramount logo to the STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS title, through the First London hospital scenes, it was truly a Cinematic masterpiece. Well crafted, blocked, shot, executed, scored, and presented.
Then we got into the heart of the movie.

Now let me preface what I am about to say with this:

I AM BIG ORCI/KURTZMAN FANS.

I think they are very adept at dialogue writing and high concept story ideas. The character interplay moments of their scripted projects are very real, personable, and downright natural. They have a way of making characters real, even when they are as far-fetched as a self-aware computer, or a shape shifting Autobot talking with AM/FM radio to an annoying teenage kid.

Now, with that being said, I loved this movie. I loved ST09.
Cinematically, these movies are everything I had hoped a Star Trek movie would be since the initial release of ST-TMP….. Big, Bold, Expensive, and well crafted.
They were, well in a nut shell MOVIES.
Were there Mcguffins?
YEP.
Did they annoy me?
YEP.
In the end do I care?
NOPE.
Sure I had to rationalize some of the incoherent plot gimmicks in the first movie that were needed to get the action from point A to point B, some set scenes that were their because they looked cool or added drama, but in the end were ludicrously ridiculous if based on reality or even logic, and of course the entire “chicken and the egg” trans warping moment and the shoe horning of LeoSpock into a Kirk scene used to tell us just who Nero was…
But in the end, I really did not care. Not like ST2, 3, 4, 5, 6, the TOS, Next Gen,DS9, Vgr, or Enterprise did not also have some of the same type of moments.
I mean really, ST-TOS could not even get star dates in sync, for gosh sakes!!
So I knew that STID would have some “Sh*t and Shinola” moments that would be cringe worthy once I got past the awe of the moment and dissected the film down to it primal core.
But you know what? Again I do not care.
In the end, with all the plot winces that may be there, this is one heck of a movie.
I will go as far as to say that IMHO it is the best ST movie to date
(yes, I think WOK was a good Trek, but it was cheap, stereotypical, and changed the Trek universe from a exploration first/fight second environment to a Para military nautically challenges spacefaring enterprise (no pun) that altered the nature of the characters in ways that still make me shudder. and as for Mcguffins…. does anyone remember the biggest in all of Trek history? well I do…”I remember you, Mr. CHEKOV”. ST3 had a much better sense of character interaction, dialogue, and sense of loyalty.)
In Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman we have a pair that really love ST at its core, they now it’s passion, it’s legion, and it’s deep history.
They respect it and admire it all while understanding that they cannot be blinded by the that narrow vision of being a true ST fan.
For Trek to be successful it has to be more than “79 million fans agree….”
They know it must be a “Boldy go…” in that “Galaxy far, far, away…” manner and they have succeeded tenfold.
Kudos to them, J.J. Abrams, Bryan Burke, and the entire “Supreme Court” team, with the exception of Damon Lindelof… I am still pissed at him for LOST, for giving us something that the world can actually respect and admire.
They made it possible for a 52 year old man, wearing a “Retro St-Animated Series” T-shirt to have young people come up and say…
That is one cool shirt.

McGuffins and all.

381. James Regulus Kirk - May 16, 2013

So many nitpicks here, many of them valid. None of them stopped me from enjoying the movie. The audience clapped at the Khan reveal, AND the Spock Khan scream.
Star Trek should be fun, and Star Trek Into Darkness is just that – FUN!
You know that feeling you get when the episode about to wrap up and you don’t want it to end? I experienced that in 2009, and again last night, just like a kid watching “The Doomsday Machine”.

382. Enjoyed the Movie - May 16, 2013

This may get lost in all of these messages, and while I did enjoy the movie, it now seems like Kahn is no longer Kirk’s grand enemy. It now feels like its a battle of Spock and Kahn and not Kirk and Kahn.

If Kahn were to ever come back, would he now see Spock as his almost equal? In his mind now, kirk is just some weak human that he can maniuplate like everyone else. Kirk never really never defeated him in this movie. It was all spock.

383. SciFi69 - May 16, 2013

After seeing it. Ill bet the team is hard at work writing JJ Trek 3.

1) Wait years and years

2) put The Search for Spock into the DVD Player.

3) write a knock off.

4) Add lens flares, a barely coherent plot and tons of random pointless action scenes.

Done :D

(Maybe too harsh, but the way it seemed they went about making STID)

384. Aqua - May 16, 2013

I have my nits to pick, but overall this was a hugely better movie than the 2009 one.

385. JimJ - May 16, 2013

Iwr: Well said! I think we are cut from the same cloth. You life’s path related to Trek is very similar to mine. I did MANY of the same things that you did through my years. I totally agree with your take on the film. Bravo!!!

386. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

I loved it but I wanted more! 45mins more :)

I wanted more khan vs kirk and crew

I wanted more slower starship vs starship battle sequence

Awesome movie, but because we waited 4 years I think 45mins more with a post credit scene is not being too greedy :)

The acting, direction, special effects and dialogue was epic and this film should get some oscar nods.

I loved every sentence pike spoke, loved all the tos characters, very well balanced humour, sadness, lump in throat, tears near eyes, and omg moments.

It would have been nice to see a flashback scene of when bb was found floating in space and khan awoken by Marcus etc to give backstory of khan more meat and potatoes for the audience, trekkie or non.

I love what scotty says to kirk, do you remember when we were explorers? And scotty sticking up for what he believes in over revenge, as kirk was blinded by vengence.

387. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

Music also was epic!

388. Captain of the USS Monte Carlo NCC-1986 - May 16, 2013

# 66 and to Bob O – this is WELL said. I saw this movie this am (12-230) and i found it to be very good. Not perfect, no Trek film, has EVER been, even TWOK has issues. But i like what # 66 said, this is exactly what i took from the film last night and i just didn’t know how to put it down, but that IS it. There are a lot of clowns on here who think they could do a better movie/script and maybe they could, but they aren’t in charge. I am a fan of Prime Trek, but also realize that in order for our ST to survive it had to change. So what if Khan is in the film, The Joker was in Batman movie and no one complained. I don’t get that. Overall a well done epic. 8/10 on first viewing. Going again to see it.

389. g_trek - May 16, 2013

I liked this movie. I will see it again. I k ow everyone is not picking. While you are all entitled to your opinions, some are beyond unfair criticism of a movie. I could make the same complaints about every movie ever made.

I am 42. I saw all of the original movies in the theater. I left every one except TWOK disappointed until these past two. These feel like movies and not big screen TV episodes. Finally! That is what I have always wanted for Star Trek.

As for plot holes and details that “ruin” movies, I do that with all movies to some extent but as with all entertainment, you have to suspend your disbelief and just enjoy it. Even TWOK has two scenes that to this day damn near ruin it for me each and every time I watch it. (Yet I still love it). They are the infamous scream and the line about Kirk never facing death. Total BS. It was a line of convenience for that film that doesn’t fit the history. It rings hollow every time and time has not softened my opinion.

So, I want to tell @boborci and the rest of the supreme court great job! I loved parts of it, parts of it made me tear up, my heart was pounding, I saw depth and growth in the characters I love, I saw a timeline trying to repair itself from the damage done by Nero, I saw morality and ethics being hashed out during a time of crisis, I saw amazing scale, scope and cinematoraphy, I saw humor and humility. There are things I could not pick but I waited four years to see this and I am not going to piss on it because I just enjoyed it.

390. Vince - May 16, 2013

@ 369. ObsessiveStarTrekFan and 371. STFan

Thanks a lot guys, seems like I might be able to visit the warp core of the new Enterprise at some point then ;)

Still bloody jealous that they didn’t use one of the places I work at regularly ;)

391. TerranGuy93 - May 16, 2013

#386

Yes the Joker was in Dark Knight and nobody complained because it was pretty fresh and in a well written, well paced epic story.

I am all for change and new stuff, a poorly written version of Khan who could literally be replace by damn near anybody and the film barely changes and acts loosely like the base is not the same as the Joker who was a more intense version of his base.

392. Vince - May 16, 2013

@boborci

Can you already give us some spoilers what kind of extras will be included on the Blu-Ray? BCs audition? Deleted scenes (even more Klingons maybe :)?

393. Captain_Conrad - May 16, 2013

@ boborci and anyone else involved with the film who will read this post. Have I got your attention? (Yes I just went full on Trekfan (yes I did not use Trekkie/Trekker that argument is so old and annoying, it’s time for it to die. Do Star Wars Fans argue over being called Warsies and Warsers? No because it’s stupid to argue over something so stupid. We are Star Trek Fans, hence, Trekfans)).

Bob, and anyone else who wants to speak on the film’s behalf, this was my response to the movie: you can’t beat the original Star Trek II… but you can sure as HELL pay homage to it. In the first one, you guys made little references to all of the original Trek films, something, that for me, a young but avid Trekfan was very grateful for and appreciated. When I first heard the rumors that Khan was going to be the villain, I was rather disappointed. I mean in Star Trek 2009, it seemed you were setting up a whole new universe to do whatever you wanted with and I was hoping to see something that hadn’t been done. After last night’s masterpiece, I think I realized why you chose to take the route you did, especially after the ending where the Enterprise chose to set out on her five year deep space mission. Star Trek 2009 was the establishing movie to bring in fans, Star Trek Into Darkness is the action flick that keeps the new fans as well as the old ones who appreciate a good homage film and now you have set up for Star Trek XIII where you can basically have a movie that gets back to traditional Star Trek with an action scene or two at the end. I really do hope that is what we see. I’m not expecting a new Star Trek: The Motion Picture, but at this point, it seems that getting Trek back to Trek, at least for the first half, is very doable and will be a successful movie.

-I do of course have one issue and that is the explanation for the Klingons not going to war with the Federation. I’m not sure if I missed something, but other than that, I have no major issues with the movie.
I am also man enough to admit that I cried not once, but TWICE in this film. I did come to an abrupt halt on my sobbing when Spock yelled out “KHAN!” as I felt that it was total cheese and I couldn’t believe it just happened. I then started to wonder if that was the whole point and if you could please take the time to confirm my theory it would be greatly appreciated. It seems to me that putting that in there not only pays homage to Shatner’s scream in Star Trek II, but it also sets the mood for Spock about to lay down some Vulcan whoop ass. What I’m wonder is, was that supposed to be a message? “Alright you crybabies, we still got a movie to finish so let’s get to it!”

-The plot was explained very well and made sense that Starfleet’s knee jerk reaction to the destruction of Vulcan would cause some of the higher-ups to panic and seek out the Botany Bay.
The actors did a fantastic job of getting into the roles of their TOS counterparts. There were a few times where I could really see Shatner through Pine and Nimoy through Spock (P.S. was really cool to see Nimoy again btw). Sulu’s baddassary was clearly kicked up quite a bit and Simon Pegg’s version of Scotty is still awesome. Saldana was good as Uhura once again, Chekov was still Chekov and last but not least, Karl Urbon porves yet again he was the best pick for McCoy!
In the Star Trek 2009 film I felt cheated when it came to shots of the Enterprise. We saw about 90% of them in the trailers alone and though the Titan sequence was cool, I really wanted to see more… holy crap did you guys deliver in this one! So many amazing shots and sequences that my eyes felt like they were having sex! Yes they were that good! As a kid I always loved any time in the shows when the ships would fly inside planets. I actually still love it. I’m not sure why, but for some reason the impracticality didn’t bother me for the simple fact that it looked totally awesome! Was very pleased to see this happen twice. Last note on the visuals, the opening titles… that transition sequence was probably the best opening title sequence I have seen in any movie. The second I started to see the drawing of the Enterprise in the sand fade into the Enterprise, I was in total disbelief at the perfect execution of that sequence. My immediate reaction was saying allowed in the theater, “NIIIIIICE!” It was at that moment I decided I was going to see this movie again!

-Overall, I loved it and felt the four years was worth the wait, though please don’t make me wait that long again… even though I will, I’d rather not. Thank you once again for keep Star Trek alive and awesome!

Haters gonna hate so imma hate the haters:
Hardcore “true fans of Trek” and nitpickers, I know my words will fall on deaf ears, but I’m going to speak my disappointment of your childish and pathetic responses anyway.

-First off, before Gene Roddenberry died, he said he would like to see someone take TOS and redo it. Not copy and paste, but take the original characters and put them through something new. Even though Khan ended up in this movie, the sequences were drastically changed. This movie wasn’t a retooling of Star Trek II nor was it an attempt to replace it. Gene’s original dream of a utopia may not have included all these battles and was more centered around diplomatic resolution, but he in his dream of a better world, he was at the very least tolerant of what other people wanted to contribute to Star Trek and overall valued inclusion of ideas and visions that other people would bring to the table. Sure, were he alive today, he would probably mention that there is a lot of action and not a lot of traditional Trek, but he would not react the way you have chosen to. For years after Enterprise was cancelled, we all wanted Star Trek to come back and now that we have it, this is your response? Sorry to be cliche, but do yourself a favor and grow up, move out of mommy’s basement and get a life. If you truly believe in Roddenberry’s vision, then stop complaining and respect these films and the hard work that was put into them.

-In response to the Enterprise being submerged: yes it’s impractical and they writers knew that. Did you all not remember Scotty’s line where he points that out?

-In conclusion, is this really how you want to be? Because there is no exploration it’s not “real” Star Trek. That’s awfully close minded if you think about it. These are movies. This isn’t a TV series. I can understand wanting more original style Trek, but Star Trek: The Motion Picture would tank hard if it were made today. We may see some of the original Trek in the next film, so quit being bitter and enjoy what we have!

Well, that about wraps up my response to the film. Totally seeing this again and again and again and again… thank you, again, for everything!

394. Joel - May 16, 2013

Really enjoyed the movie and 66′s review of the ending was spot-on and I couldn’t agree more. If folks are just going to see the movie as WOK ripoff, I truly feel sorry for them. While not the greatest movie of all time, ID was enjoyable, fun, a great Star Trek movie, and an improvement over ST ’09.

395. janice - May 16, 2013

Being a HUGE Christopher Pike fan, I already know I won’t like this movie because of what they do to him. I’m devastated that they kill him off!!
I’ll go see the movie once though.

396. lwr - May 16, 2013

384-
I too wish therea glimpse of the Botany Bay.

Hindsight being 20/20…
how cool would it have been to see an after credit scene that showed the OTHER side of that hanger door (the one where after two persons robbed in white leave the cryo storage) that depicts a derilict Botany Bay with its cargo bays removed, thus setting up a potential “idea” that Khan and his friends may be relocated to say….. Ceti Alpha 5 creating a “Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod alluding to the fact that 15 years from now there may be a little “Wrath a brewing”

But again hindsite is 20/20
;)

397. Michael Chang Gummelt - May 16, 2013

I loved it, my 9 year old son loved it. I’ve been showing him TOS for the past year and he’s really gotten into it. When the trailers came out, I was fairly certain BC would be Khan (partially due to the original casting of Benicio DelToro who would make a more obvious Montalban replacement). So I showed my kids Space Seed and TWOK back-to-back a few weeks ago to “secretly” prepare them for what I figured was coming.

Watching the film, it felt like Star Trek to me – more than last time.

I liked that we got to start the film with the crew as a unit.

I liked that there were repercussions for breaking the Prime Directive (I could see them being even more strict about this with the Nemo Incident from the 2009 film – tampering can have serious side-effects).

I really liked the father/son dynamic with Pike and Kirk (Pike being his surrogate father, essentially – believing in him, admonishing him when he does wrong, but standing up for him and guiding him). It makes Pike’s death much more impactful.

I really liked the way Spock & Kirk individually reacted to Pike’s death.
I liked the “secret mission” – I totally bought it and it was a surprise to me later that it was a setup. And I’m really glad he didn’t steal the Enterprise like the trailers had made me think.

Khan was an absolute bad-ass. I only wish he had more time on screen and had been the main villain. But they left him alive and he could conceivably return someday. In fact, many people are understandably comparing this to TWOK (especially with the reactor death scene), but I think of this as more of a new telling of Space Seed where Section 31 is the catalyst (who’s to say they didn’t arrange for the TOS Enterprise to be in that sector originally? :) )

I liked Carol Marcus, but I would have liked to have seen maybe more of the romance developing between her and Kirk.

On the other hand, I loved that Kirk was the ladies man (even moreso, being younger than the original series) – especially the scene with the two cat-women. :)

I loved that Section 31 was in it, even though the plot of the movie is almost exactly what I deduced after seeing the first trailer in December (Section 31 woke up Khan and made him a secret agent, holding the rest of his crew as collateral). I didn’t expect the Section 31/Admiral Marcus betrayal, though, so that was a nice surprise.

I liked all the acting and the cinematography.

I liked the sets, though the Enterprise feels to bright and overlit to me, and Engineering still doesn’t feel like a Starship.

Loved the production values and all the costume variations.

The TWOK scene. I’m a hardcore Trekkie and I know TWOK like the back of my hand, still my absolute favorite Trek movie and the movie itself is in my top 5 of all time. So when this started to happen, I probably should have hated it. But I actually thought it was well-done. Yes, it wasn’t necessary, but I could see where the entire film had been building up to this point. Kirk starts out rescuing Spock from certain death, not allowing himself to surrender to death. Kirk bragging to Pike that he’s not lost a single crewmember. This is young, cocky Kirk who has never had to deal with death – especially not like this. So when Pike dies, it’s his first real taste of it and he goes overboard a bit. Then when he realizes they’re totally outmatched by Marcus’ ship, he realizes he just got his whole crew killed. At that point, he grows up a little. He realizes he’s not the greatest captain in the world. And when he sacrifices himself to save the crew, he’s forcing everyone else to make the more “mature” thing he refused to do with Spock at the start of the film – sacrifice one for the good of many. It works for me. (in fact, the only thing that came close to ruining this scene for me was the one guy who laughed out loud every time a verbatim line from TWOK was spoken – jerkoff)

I even like Spock’s reaction – that was aballsy move having him yell “Khannn!!!” – that could have and would have come off as super-cheesy if the rest of the scene wasn’t well done, if the actors (very young, inexperienced actors) hadn’t pulled it off. And ESPECIALLY if Spock hadn’t then used that as his launching point for the Vulcan huntdown & beatdown on Khan. This is still young Spock, still grappling with him human side, in a relationship with a human. He has to have more emotion close to the surface. He finally lets himself feel when his best friend dies. I think this is the scene where they truly become best friends like TOS Spock told them them would be in the 2009 movie. In that scene they become best friends, they acknowledge it, but then Spock loses Kirk. I think in that moment, Spock not only feels the death of who he now realizes is his best friend, but of Pike and all of Vulcan – he finally lets himself have all those emotions and he uses them to hunt down Khan.

I really liked the intensity of Spock’s hunt for Khan, even though it would have made more sense to surround Khan with every redshirt available. I liked how it took Uhura with almost 10 shots of a stun phaser *and* crazy-strong Spock to take Khan down (even though, again, would have made more sense for security to beam down and help).

The resurrection of Kirk was necessary, but handled a bit too off-handedly with the Tribble thing being a toss-away one liner setup that felt literally shoved into the scene where Kirk asks for Khan’s help. I understand they needed to have that scene to explain how Kirk could come back from the dead (and they needed to have Kirk die for dramatic effect and character motivation). But I kind of felt that part of the script was written to get to a desired point rather than letting the events play out more naturally (writing backwards – you have an event you want to happen, so you do whatever you have to to make the plot get there).

Oh, and I liked the nod to Mudd & Tribbles (I did read the Countdown to Darkness comic).

And I liked the 5-year mission setup at the end, thought it felt a little odd to see everyone back to normal and happy/cheery after everything that just happened.

In fact, by biggest complaint about the film is that is was TOO fast-paced. There are a lot of good character motivation/development threads in the film (like I mentioned above), but the film is just so RELENTLESSLY fast-paced that you don’t really understand those threads until later, if you bother to think about them. I would rather have been allowed to experience that character growth during the film rather than infer it myself after the fact.

I think, dramatically, it could have been a stronger, more mature film if it had allowed itself to slow down a bit and let the characters breathe (literally every major character is full-out sprinting at some point in this movie – very symbolic of the breakneck pace of the plot overall). I know this would probably make the film longer, but I would have been fine with that.

I enjoyed the Klingons, I enjoyed Section 31 and I enjoyed Khan and Carol Marcus – but shoving them all into one film together seemed rushed. You could have made 3 films out of what’s in this one film. I suppose this could be seen as a setup for a more Klingon-centric film or a return of Khan (to me this is mostly a Section 31 film). But I feel like major villains like Khan and Klingons deserve their own movie rather than as cameos or second fiddles in a movie.

And that’s where I think the “fan fiction” feel came from for me, too. I imagine Bob & Alex are Star Trek fans and had a desire to satisfy other fans by getting so much Trek canon elements in there. And as a Trekkie, I appreciate it. I’ve written Trek too (fan fiction and officially – I wrote the script for the Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force game), so I totally understand the temptation. But maybe it was too much fan service for a feature film? Even though it’s a reboot, too much self-referentialism can cause a bit of messiness.

I can imagine it’s a tough balancing act, trying to tell an original story (in this case, the whole Section 31 plan) and trying to bring in the elements you love (the original crew dynamic, Spock Prime, Pike, Carol Marcus, Khan, Klingons). But now that they’ve set up the 5 year mission, it would be nice to see them try something more original for the next movie, and to do it sooner.

In fact, even though I know this would never happen at this point, I feel Trek’s natural place is on TV where they can explore more and tell smaller stories. Let the characters grow from week to week. 20+ hours a year vs 2.5 hours every 4 years. More time to explore lots of ideas, even revisit some old ones. More time to have social commentary. The movies have always had to be “crisis moments” to be successful – and they’re great at that. But without the character development and depth that a preceding series has, the movies are going to feel a bit shallow and rushed. Like I said, it would probably never happen (Quinto has done TV before, but I’m not sure Pine and Pegg and Cho and Zaldana could/would commit to a show).

In any case, I loved the movie, despite the mucking about with the revered TWOK and rushed plot (in pace, not construction – the nitpicking above about getting blood from other augments – who would need to be DETHAWED first! – and using transwarp tech – which defeats Marcus’ goal of eliminating the other augments! – and all the really stupid nitpicky things are just people trying to find fault with the film for their own reasons). If you go into it wanting to dislike it, you’ll find things to dislike. But if, like me, you’re a Trek fan (or just a movie fan) who wants to enjoy a movie, you’ll love it.

Well done – now please do the next one in 2 years, not 4! :)

398. Captain Dunsel - May 16, 2013

I went to the 12:30 a.m. showing. I liked ST09 quite a bit so I did have high hopes for this one.

I regret to say they went mostly unfulfilled.

I think I will limit my observations to one main area and that is the writing. Here are my top issues.

1. Too many elements felt tacked on rather than being integral to the script. Examples:

A. Ultimately, Nimoy’s appearance was pointless other than to say we had Spock Prime in this one.

B. The entire use of Khan was lazy scripting. With all of the glorious history to draw from and the endless possibilities available, why did they have to go back to that same well again?

C. The death scene was what pro wrestlers call cheap heat. The fall alone would have killed Kirk and yet somehow he survived and managed to drag himself back to the glass door so he could replay a mirror version of Staner/Nimoy 1982. And having Spock scream KAAAHHHNNN! leads to the next point.

2. Spock as Kirk. We say Spock’s reaction in TOS when he thought he had killed Kirk. Granted there are other factors (death of Vulcan) but Spock displayed a wider range of emotions in this film than Nimoy has in 47 years in toto. This was not Spock. It was Kirk in a Spock suit, right down to him getting more action in the female department. This is a total betrayal of the character’s unique history in ST, one where the blame is clearly and entirely placed at the feet of the scripting team. Quinto did his best to turn crap into alabaster but all we got was polished crap.

3. Going to agree with Dirty Harry–the production team was so concerned about keeping everything moving fast that they jumped to warp speed and blew through so many opportunities for character development. Checkov came off as an incompetent boob in engineering, Sulu couldn’t solve any problems at the helm, Uhura’s main function aboard ship was to be available to look concerned whenever Spock rushed by, McCoy was almost totally inert until the last act, on and on. The only arc that seemed appropriate was Kirk’s and even that played out badly when the seriousness of his breaking General Order Number One went inexplicably by the wayside so Kirk could be put back in the Enterprise’s center seat after Pike’s death.

For the record, I thought the cast was incredible again. With the script they were given, I thought every one of them was just terrific.

I am one who would prefer a slower pace and a whole lot fewer lens flares. But I recognize they have to appeal to a 21st century audience so I live with these things.

I know how much the writers care about Trek and I wanted so much to love this movie. I have been to every ST movie since 1979 on opening day. I have seen every one at least three times in the theater except Nemesis, which was such a disappointment that I saw it on the big screen only the one time.

Now it has company. I have no plans to see this film again until it comes out on DVD and maybe not even then. The critics may love it, the audiences as well and I hope so because, as a summer popcorn flick, it is a very good movie and I want it to succeed.

But, in my opinion, it is pretty lackluster Star Trek. And as I sit here exhausted from very little sleep, I almost want to cry. I have walked with this Star Trek saga almost my entire life and this is yet another case where I feel an old friend may have died and I will never see him again.

399. Michael Towns - May 16, 2013

I disagree with pretty much all the criticism that’s been leveled at this film. This was a delight to watch. Character development was heavy in this film; the cinematography was gorgeous. As I sat watching the movie, the characters of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov felt real to me.

Regarding Spock’s showing of emotion, this is a much younger Spock than we are used to seeing, and he has been through things Spock Prime never had to face (death of mother, destruction of Vulcan). It makes perfect sense that Spock would have to deal with more emotions at this stage of his life.

I think the vast majority of the criticism of this film is off-base and groundless. Hats off to Abrams and his production team for a beautifully well done movie that has heart, characters, and outstanding visuals to boot.

400. Clinton - May 16, 2013

I had no problem at all with Spock yelling “Khaaaaan!” Go for it. Spock needed that rage to fuel his chase. And “Noooooo!” would be just as cliche and not nearly as fun.

The thing that puzzled me was figuring out what Spock Prime was able to contribute. (I’ll admit it, I can be slow to pick up on stuff.) After learning that Khan was capable of killing the entire crew, Spock asks how the Prime universe defeated Khan. Was any of that info, if divulged, utilized? Perhaps it was and I just missed it. Feel free to chime in, people. As I said, I am probably just not making the right connection.

401. Jerry Modene - May 16, 2013

Enjoyed the movie more than I did 2009. Given the universe that they’ve established for this alternate reality, they stayed consistent with it (even if it was, in GR’s old terms, the consistency of their errors). There were, as in any movie, a considerable number of plotholes but overall, I think the movie accomplished what it sent out to do. Whether it’s what needed to be done is another debate for another time.

As I’ve mentioned before here, Khan is not a name, it’s a title, like “Genghis Khan”. The man’s name is Noonian Singh, as old Spock correctly stated. But of course, if Harrison had told Kirk, “My name is Noonian Singh” most of the non-Trekkie audience would have said, “Who?” so it had to be done that way if it was going to be done at all.

The sacrifice/death scenes were well played, although with each line I kept thinking to myself, “I can’t believe they’re going there.”

Little piece of trivia I caught – and I hope it was intentional on the writers’ part. The use of “Wallace” as Carol’s subterfuge-name was actually justified, in that in the early drafts of Star Trek II, the “old love” character was originally going to be Dr. Janet Wallace from “The Deadly Years”. The character was changed in later drafts to Carol Marcus.

402. Scott Gammans - May 16, 2013

tl;dr

Best. Star Trek. Movie.

“Wrath of Khan” will always be my sentimental favorite Trek movie, but as an action-adventure movie, STID beats all eleven of them on every meaningful metric: story, direction, acting, pacing, visual effects.

If you were disappointed by STID, take heart: This movie is going to make a metric ton of credits, which will increase the chances that Paramount will greenlight a new Star Trek TV series.

Mark Altman was right: STAR TREK LIVES!

403. Michael Towns - May 16, 2013

” If folks are just going to see the movie as WOK ripoff, I truly feel sorry for them.”

Totally agree. This wasn’t a TWOK rip off in the least. This movie just works on an emotional and visceral level, especially if you are paying attention.

Regarding pacing. There are plenty of pauses where character development occurs and folks talk. I don’t get this “WAY OVERPACED” baloney.

404. Spiked Canon - May 16, 2013

@boborci

I had to read almost all of the thread because I didn’t want to beat you down with the same questions.

I loved 2009. I was so onboard with a fresh take on Trek. When the rumors of Khan started for STITD I laughed because I knew these fresh new writers were too tricky to do that.

JJ made a great movie. It looked great, sounded great, acted great. The plot was good to very good.

In the end I didn’t even mind the Khan plot, other than the fact that he looked nothing like Montalban and you didn’t seem to address that point. I didn’t even mind the similarities to TWOK script. BUT WHY DID YOU HAVE TO THROW IT IN OUR FACE. Really?? Kirk had to do exactly what Spock had done? Did they have to use similar dialog? Hell, did they have to put their effing hands on the glass?

The movie will succeed because it was made for the masses going to a summer blockbuster. You did your job.

In the end I feel like you weren’t even expecting to make a second film. The first one was so original and the second one felt lazy. You tried to get a Latin actor and couldn’t so you said effit we will use BC (who’s a great actor). We will STEAL elements of TWOK. We won’t take those elements and just refer to them as I felt you did with arming the torpedoes. That was brilliant. You could’ve killed Kirk, but not the exact same way with similar dialogue.

I ranked the movie in the above poll “good”

405. adjunct37beta - May 16, 2013

Repost from #19 that pretty much sums up how I feel:

For Mr Orci, if he has the stomach to come here:

I love it. Love it love it love it. Thank you, to everyone involved. I think your choices were brave and bold and truly fascinating. I love the mirroring of WoK, the death a singular event imbued with such different meaning and purpose this time. Shout out to Simon Pegg, whose Scotty is a revelation. He’s not comic relief, there is an astonishing humanity and vulnerability there. Shout out to Bruce Greenwood – Pike’s death is gutting, heart-wrenching without a word spoken. His scenes with Pine are wonderful. I could go on and on and on. Do I think your film is perfect? No. There are some structural issues I could quibble on, even though I see why you did what you did. But on balance? You achieved something fabulous. Please, please, be pleased and proud of yourselves. Don’t let the hate diminish you.

My Addition:

I love that even in an alternate timeline khan & kirk seem fated to meet and conflict. The events therein seem to also be a fated occurrence and drives home that while this timeline is different, certain themes carry throughout. I saw the movie last night and I absolutely loved it. On the edge of my seat in moments, teary at others and laughing a few moments later. The pacing, the explanation of events and ties in to the “canon” timeline were perfect and justified. I absolutely cannot wait to see this movie again and again and again.

A HUGE tip of the hat to Mr. Abrams, Mr. Kurtzman, Mr. Orci, Mr. Lindelof, Mr. Giacchino and especially the ENTIRE art and production design departments for an extraordinary job well done. Thank you for for bridging the gap between us crazy fanboys and the new fans. Thank you for breathing new life back into a franchise that I’m not certain we would have seen anymore of without your guidance and care. Change can be uncomfortable especially if not executed with grace, you all have made this change more palpable than, I think, most could have anticipated. AMAZING work!

406. al - May 16, 2013

Saw it in IMAX 3-d last night. I thought it was a good film. Great pacing ( even though…very fast ). What I didn’t like was the Wrath of khan homage scene in the warp core reactor room. It was very cheesy and should have been reshot or edited differently. Khan’s twist was nice, but I still wish they had gone with an original villian or save Khan for the 3rd film.

Did not care for the warp core reactor room design. It was an extreme and weird reboot of the warp core. Looks more like something from pacific rim or battlestar galactica.

Klingons looked great !!! Wish they was more of them. Loved their tech, and they truly looked savage.
I hope the next film…we get more of them and also some exploration, which is sorely missing from Trek.

407. Buzz Cagney - May 16, 2013

#381 you forgot to add, and come on Trekmovie fishing for idea’s.
Seriously, the more I think about this movie the more I remember people posting suggestions in the past.
Someone wanted a kick-ass experimental Starship. Whoa! Look what we have here!
Plenty mentioned Harry Mudd. Look out, here’s his ship!
How many said Pike was going to die? Oh, ok, i’ll give the writers that one. It was so bloody obvious they’d take that easy one. They couldn’t come up with any dialogue for him though. A toughie. They should have just come on here and asked. I’m sure we’d have helped out.

408. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

Can someone PLEASE explain to me how the Nero incursion affected the timeline prior to said incursion?

How did it make Khan from 1996 British, white, with blue eyes? Or was the explanation edited out of the film? Like being frozen that long removes pigment from your skin and eyes… and gives you a British accent…

and please people that will say things like “it doesn’t matter that khans white, or white people can be named khan”… it does, forget space seed and WOK, a lot of books speak to the importance of Khan being Indian and Sikh.

409. Buzz Cagney - May 16, 2013

#403 I hope he has the stomach to come back. I mean I went back to see his film for a second time after a first, shall we say, difficult viewing.
If I can do that then i’m sure he can tolerate a bit of a kicking on here. ;)

410. Legate Damar - May 16, 2013

Not the best Trek movie ever, but it was pretty awesome. Really, just the scene where Spock shouts “Khaaaaaaan!!!!!!!” made the whole movie worth it. The new Klingons looked kind of dumb, but whatever. Cumberbatch was an awesome Khan, and Admiral Marcus may be the single most insane admiral in starfleet, which is really saying something. The radiation chamber scene wasn’t quite as sad as it was in Wrath of Khan, but it was pretty cool. Of course, it was obvious that Kirk wasn’t going to stay dead, unless Star Trek XII: The Search for Kirk was coming up. I also liked how Kirk finally got punished for disobeying orders and breaking the prime directive, even if it didn’t stick. I look forward to the next Star Trek anyway, and hope we won’t have to wait another four years.

411. JimJ - May 16, 2013

Jim McDermott-I agree with you 100%. Later, I will write my long review of why this was the best Star Trek movie ever for me, and, why I totally disagree with the negative nellies on here.

412. Buzz Cagney - May 16, 2013

#397 yea, you godit, you are right and all the doubters are wrong. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

413. KirksLove - May 16, 2013

357. KirksLove – May 16, 2013

“Cumberbatch’s acting is out of this world. Should get the franchise an Oscar nod.”

358. Unbel1ever – May 16, 2013
As much as I like Cumberbatch’s acting, there’s no chance that is going to happen :)

Well, we will see. Cumberbatch will have a really big standing by the end of this year because of all the other roles he will play… Julian Assange, Smaug and Necromancer, Little Charles, his role in the new Steve McQueen flic… if he’ not gets nominated for Khan, he will be nominated for one of his other roles because The Academy doesn’t like SciFi… but this role will have al lot to do with it.

414. martin - May 16, 2013

Well it is 7 hours since it ended and I am 4 hours away from seeing it again (with a group this time) – and I liked it. A lot.

I wish that I could see this in a vaccuum, but even knowing the major elements before, there was still a number of surprises.

It is true that some of the elements here seem like they are checking off an outline – but that is not to say that the outline isn’t a good one.

Has it holes? sure. So did Star Trek 2, 4, and First Contact, and if that is the best, this film (as 2009) is right in that pack. Better than 2? IMO, no – but we’re not going to get another Star Trek 2. Is it going to be as entertaining to anybody as Star Trek 4 was? That will be interesting to see – probably so.

Greenwood, Cumberbatch, and Pine are all excellent. The scenes with Pike and Kirk are, even after being played ad nauseum in the ads, are some of the best ever in Trek.

The complaints about why Khan and not another augment are without merit, IMO. 1st)- Khan’s waking is triggered as soon as someone sets foot on the Botany Bay. That programming doesn’t change if the waking happens 8 years earlier.
2nd)- What leads anyone to think Khan = any other augment? Harrison’s claim “I am better” is not just vs any current human, it also means his followers. These are Khan’s followers, not other superleaders of his time. That goes to his agression, intelligence, and perhaps his super platelets.

And as for the superblood, completely supported by Prime McCoys statements in Space Seed.

As for one question, can they just synthesize immortality? Khan is not immortal. He aged between Space Seed and TWOK.

Why couldn’t McCoy just take blood from any other popcycle? again Khan != any other augment. If you only have one chance to save Kirk, you want to start thawing out more augments and taking blood hoping it can bring back dead tribbles? If you can get Spock to bring back a pint of the good stuff – just do that.

What about having Khan’s blood available over the shelf? So you are just going to tap into him like an oil well? Even if you could, the medical ethicists of 2259 are probably not of the same moral fiber of Alex Marcus.

My fear was that this film as a sequel to 2009 would be like Transformers 2 to the first Transformers. There it lost heart and funny while amping up the action. That is certainly not the case here, it is more action, but also even more heart. It has a few more flaws too, but nothing major.

415. Fluba2009 - May 16, 2013

@boborci Thanks for a great, thrill-ride of a movie. I saw the 8pm showing last night in IMAX 3D and absolutely loved it. I was able to go in unspoiled and it made the whole experience so much more enjoyable. I thought the reversal of TWOK was great and worked well. The entire audience in my theatre was on the edge of our seats, even though I’m sure we knew that Kirk wasn’t completely dead yet. Can’t wait to see what you all have up your sleeves for the 50th Anniversary in 2016.

Live long and prosper!

416. Chris Doohan - May 16, 2013

I saw the movie on Tuesday and I must say that it was amazing! Although I am in the movie, I went into it with an open mind and was completely blown away. This film is full of action and it is extremely well written and acted. It surpassed all my expectations. Kudos to the whole team.

PS It was great to see more of Scotty (Simon Pegg). I thought that he and B. cumberbatch stole the show.

417. Jai - May 16, 2013

Re: #361, 406:

People really need to read this article by a grassroots advocacy organisation about Khan’s racial whitewashing in STID: http://www.racebending.com/v4/featured/star-trek-whiteness/

It’s a very coolheaded article but extremely effective. Looks like John Cho has spoken out too — like the GIF at the end of that article shows, during an interview to promote STID, Cho praised the original Khan as a “person of colour”, which was followed by an awkward silence from the other people present.

418. KHAAAN the weasel - May 16, 2013

@373 (and @364, respectively): Concerning the real-life “Warp core”, this might very well be the case.
See here: http://static.neatorama.com/images/2009-05/national-ignition-facility.jpg

even the interior looks somewhat similar to STID’s “intermix chamber” (or whatever it’s supposed to be):
http://static.neatorama.com/images/2009-05/national-ignition-facility.jpg

419. FrancoMiranda - May 16, 2013

So, I went to see the movie on Tuesday and I’ve waited until now to post up my thoughts on it.

I was very, very pleased with the film. I enjoyed the opening sequence on the alien planet – however, I wish I hadn’t known so much about it pre-viewing, but that’s my own fault. It was very evocative of the original series. In particular, it reminded me of the episode where Spock tries to sacrifice himself to save the crew from the giant amoeba. I could accept the Enterprise being under water, if only because Scotty complained about it. Therefore it wasn’t some easy decision to make for the crew.

Onwards! I loved Chris Pine throughout the film. What excellent casting. I can see how he is channeling Shatner in some respects, but also bringing his own ‘thing’ to this younger Kirk. I can see ‘our’ Kirk more in this film, and I can see how that older Kirk will surface more in the future. Quinto was excellent as Spock, again. The rest of the cast were excellent too. Loved the ‘Captain Sulu’ nods, and his moment in command was excellent. Urban as McCoy was fantastic.

The references and nods throughout the film were outstanding. I enjoyed the meta-dialogue that took place a number of times. For example, Kirk telling McCoy to quit the metaphors. I think we all felt the same!

What else? Seeing more of Earth in the 23rd Century was nice. Starfleet meetings were cool. A small moment I liked was seeing the Captain of the USS Bradbury, clearly an experienced older Captain. Shame he died. Pike’s death was tragic, made worse by the description of his final moments given by Spock. Excellently written.

In all, I thought it was a fantastic movie. I didn’t mind the scenes at the end that aped TWOK. It was done well. I agree with the previous poster who posited her theory of the function for that scene. It cements the friendship.

What would I like to see in future? Well, more than just one more movie, for one.

Two? Slower paced battles in space. Time for us to admire the beauty of the vessels in combat.

Three: a more even matched bad guy, if it’s a bad guy.

Four: hopefully a film WITHOUT a clear cut bad guy. Haha.

Anyway, thanks Bob, it was great. Here’s to the future. Star Trek is here to stay.

420. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@381. SciFi69:
ha ha ha that’s too funny. but given what actual new stuff I’ve seen come from them, that might be the best course if they go forward

421. KHAAAN the weasel - May 16, 2013

@ 416 (myself)
@ 373:
Oh, sorry, accidentally posted the same link twice. The latter was supposed to be this one:
https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/nif/images/tarpos_technicians.jpg

422. Jai - May 16, 2013

The comment numbers keep changing (some posts upthread also keep disappearing and reappearing). My comment immediately above referred to my previous post and was also a reply to Mcflycat’s post.

423. boborci - May 16, 2013

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/05/star-trek-after-darkness-comic/

keep an eye out for this if you go through post STID anxiety.

424. MMarcoux66 - May 16, 2013

@boborci – Saw it last night and thank you for an EPIC film. I didn’t read any of the spoilers and went into it expecting a good film… not the great film I witnessed. Wrath of Khan had always been my favorite… so the surprises brought chills. I can’t wait to take my family this weekend. You guys have done Gene R proud.

Thank you!

425. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

Loved the film. Didn’t think it was a copy of anything done before. The Kirk/Spock scene was nessessary and it a big turning point in the relationship between the two and a big moment in the life of a more human version of Spock. Loved it.

Benedict Cumberpatch was a great Khan. Loved every scene he was in.

The D4 Klingon ship was awesome from a homework point of view. As a long time Starfleet battles player a D4 class is a patrol/scout type ship, so wonderful in getting that right…

I’m not sure this was intended, but I loved the nod to Montalban’s Khan with Spocks line of “Khan was the Enterprises greatest foe”..showed the impact he had in bringing that character to life as well as making Cumberpatch’s amazing version possible.

Just all around loved the film. Shed some man tears when Pike died, but loved the impact he had on Kirk’s life.

Kirk’s journey was amazing, from start to finish. Love that he may not be Khan’s main nemesis now. I’m really digging Alternate Spock and the fact that he is more human. Love the new path and take.

THAT was what I like in my Star Trek MOVIES

Love the film. Can’t wait for 3.

@389..regarding the Joker..nothing the Joker did in Dark Knight was original, as most batman fans will tell you. Infact, nothing in Dark Knight/Dark Knight Rises was really original. It was all copied and paste job from multiple comics.

426. Chain of Command - May 16, 2013

If you’re going to bring back a villain from “Star Trek” why not make it Khan? He was the best the original series had to offer. I, for one, am glad that he was brought back. Khan was Kirk’s greatest rival and the “Wrath of Khan” was “Star Trek’s” greatest (moment up until now).

I have no problem with this new take on “Star Trek”. I have no problem with a new take on Khan. I like that someone is doing “Star Trek” again and making it fun.

427. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

@ 66. Karen …..I read that brilliant post before I saw the movie and I looked at the reactor scene with that in mind and it worked.

Amazing what one can do when they think of things other then “it’s not my trek”, and “how unoriginal”

428. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 16, 2013

@421. boborci

Holy Hell – post STID anxiety, indeed! I nearly had a heart attack! I think Zach Quinto might be a bit miffed – I’m sure I saw in one of his interviews that he’s be interested in taking that direction… And now, you’ve gone and put it in a comic instead ;-)

429. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

Oh, and no complaints about Magic Khan Blood. It was never mentioned in TOS, so it was open game.

Plus….why complain about that brining Kirk back when we had a goofy way of bringing Scotty back to life in TOS and re-educating Uhura in the same episode..it works

430. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

424.

Khan was not the best villian in TOS or even close to the most dangerous. people only think that because of TWOK.

Mr. Orci: Was Khan being British, White, and Blue eyed a concern at any point in time? Or as most of these threads show – Star Trek fans wouldn’t care/notice?

431. kmart - May 16, 2013

31,
Quit trying to tell people that they’re wrong because celebrities are voicing views different from theirs. Is this a case of, ‘they make more money & therefore they are right?’ Or, ‘they cashed a paycheck from Paramount & therefore they are right?’ What makes CHRIS DOOHAN any kind of arbiter of good and bad in drama, trek or otherwise?

And I’m sure you’re right that TPTB know their shit. But clearly, to paraphrase from a GOOD movie, they got their shit together, but can’t lift it.

432. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

Hey BobOrci.

When you reboot TNG for the small screen, make sure you write Picard as an Indian Sikh character.

Oh wait, that would be wrong, right.

433. Brian - May 16, 2013

I saw the film last week here in Dublin, I thought it was excellent, really very enjoyable. The only thing I thought would have been a good addition was if they had a scene similar to Space Seed, where after finding out it was Khan, the senior officers discussed him and they show the picture of Khan back as a dictator. They could of thrown in a line saying his appearance had been altered etc. However I’m not a professional film maker so please keep it up (and also give your approval to a new season of Enterprise on Netflix, we could see some of the technologies on board the new enterprise being developed/implemented).

434. billhardin22 - May 16, 2013

Have not seen the movie but I am already disappointed.

There is no reason to rehash elements from old movies.

Honoring Trek canon and being unoriginal are two different things.

With the time and money they had, Abrams and company could have and should have provided us with something new and fresh.

Cumberbatch could have been an entirely new character and perhaps created a role as iconic as Khan with his great talents.

We need something more than a great popcorn movie.

As a Trek fan for almost 40 years, I am grateful for the new start and willing to accept changes for new Trek.

But at least be original and don’t waste the opportunity to do somethng really bold.

435. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@415

Read that article, very informative, and unfortunately for the 21st Century, still very true.

Also watched that interview with Urban, Eve and Cho.

John Cho is officially a legend :)

436. JPL65 - May 16, 2013

Great movie, excellent theme and mix of old and new. Anyone complaining needs to realize that this is what JJ Abrams does. He creates high action block busters, period. If you are a Fan of Fringe or Lost you will also see he is a master of alternate realities and telling the same story multiple times in different ways. The movie was right on the spot based on expectations. My only comment is that Benicio del Toro would have been a better visual, but who is to say if he would have nailed the roll like Cumberbatch. This one felt like a Trek film, can’t wait to see what happens on the five year mission!

437. Efren - May 16, 2013

@ Roberto AKA BOB

I am a fan of everything you guys do. Both Star Trek Films are Amazing to me, you got people loving and hating the alternate reality regardless it gets people talking and star trek is in the air. Soooooo Freaking Glad You got Spock Prime again as a yoda to Spock. I hope you continue with the franchise and continue the story in comics and film, P.S. love also transformers prime/Fringe and everything else you do. WEPA!

438. Crone - May 16, 2013

@brian 431 My daughter saw it with non trek friends and they could not figure out who Kahn was or why he had ever been important. They had no knowledge of his back story and were terribly confused. These kids are very bright grad students and still couldn’t figure Khan. On retrospect I can see where they are coming from. I think you are right about the need for more and better exposition concerning Khan.

439. me - May 16, 2013

potholes big enough for a starship to pass

440. Michael - May 16, 2013

-386. Captain of the USS Monte Carlo NCC-1986
“The Joker was in Batman movie and no one complained. I don’t get that.”

you aren’t much of a fan of story or comic books are you? The Joker was done twice and done well. so was Khan….. see what i did there ;p

-387. g_t
exactly!^

-423. Robman007
“regarding the Joker..nothing the Joker did in Dark Knight was original, as most batman fans will tell you. Infact, nothing in Dark Knight/Dark Knight Rises was really original. It was all copied and paste job from multiple comics.”

Very Dishonest statement. In fact some believe the trilogy was too original. Yet it was EXACTLY what comic book fans want, close adaptions to the great comic arcs with whatever nice touches you can add. Treating that material with great respect and not downplaying their existence resulted in all 3 films being better than the comics they were based on.

441. CHRIS DOOHAN - May 16, 2013

429 kmart

You’re right. Like you, I’m just a fan of the show.

442. filmboy34 - May 16, 2013

@175. BobOrci,

Thank you for your response. I marvel at how you find the time to go on message boards like this with all the projects you are involved in. Although if I were in your shoes, I would enjoy greatly talking to Star Trek fans about the film I wrote. I think engaging with fans, even when they criticize you, is great fun. Star Trek fans are truly great fans and great people. Most of the fans I have met on boards like this and in person have been some of the nicest people out there. I would feel priviledged to be the one tasked with writing and being involved with this universe, as I am sure you are.

One last question for you sir if I may? I read somewhere that Paramount did extensive research and found that the international markets preferred space films that had a larger portion of the story take place on Earth. I was curious if you, Alex, and Damon had any direct pressure from or input from the suits at Paramount when it came to the script for STID?

Thanks!

443. sjmort - May 16, 2013

I enjoyed and I’m going again tomorrow. However I was on my first viewing very disappointed it was Khan, simply because of there being no anticipation for the character, which I think would have added to the enjoyment. I also think the physical differences between Montalban and Cumberbatch are too great. What I have done is had to setup a mental story that Admiral Marcus gave Khan a whole new identity including surgical procedures. It make sense as in Space Seed the enterprise computer did have files on Khan and is ’90s actions which in STID would still be non impacted by Neros disruption of the history. Khan running around looking like Khan would have made him quite obvious I think. Its helped me get my head round it, but again I would have preferred having an actor looking physically more like the part (not that Cumberbatch did a bad job in any way) and having the awareness and anticipation that Khan was coming.

444. @Dave01 - May 16, 2013

66 Karen – Well said. Spot on.

@Dave01

Ready for the KLINGONS!!!
STAR TREK 3.1 – 2016!!! 50th Anniversary!!!

445. needsofthemany - May 16, 2013

Saw it last night. And I woke up this morning still in awe of how cleverly STID turns the TWOK story on its head. I was so blown away by Kirk’s death scene. Loved the continued evolution of Uhura and, especially, Scotty. But to me, this movie was all about Spock, and his continuing journey to discover himself, and find the balance of Vulcan and Human. I found his character development in this film to be immensely satisfying.

I don’t discount everyone’s gripes about the plot holes, some of which are glaring. But this was a problem in ST09, too, so I’m not surprised. (And actually, I rewatched all of the other Trek movies recently, and they all have their share of plot holes, too.) I’d much rather have to get over plot holes than character holes. There are no character holes here.

My one, and only, real complaint is the decision to have Spock deliver the Khan scream. I was so caught up in the death scene, and then that bit of corny, contrived, over-indulgence happened, and I actually did a facepalm. Total fail. It was one step too far. But I’ll get over it. :)

446. Dennis Sisterson - May 16, 2013

*SPOILERS*

Thoroughly enjoyed the film – I particularly liked Kirk’s character development – he really had some tough decisions to make – and the whole pre-titles scene with the volcano. Also enjoyed a lot of the dialogue- it was quickfire, but well honed and served the characters well. Above all, I like the promise that we will finally get back to the five-year-mission scenario of being out in deep space encountering unknowns, which for me was the main appeal of the original series.
Negatives: I didn’t mind it being Khan so much – except that he was underdeveloped – but the whole TWOK rehash with the radiation chamber made me cringe a little… lifting a scenario like that so closely from a previous film had too much of a fan-fiction feel about it. I even did a real facepalm when some of the lines and gestures from TWOK came up. Then they had to go get Khan because they ran out of his blood and I thought, why could they use blood from one of the 72 other guys?
All that said, I had bigger quibbles with every one of the classic trek movies, and like those films, these nitpicks might bother me less on future viewings… in fact, I’d like to see what the writers do with the Talosians.

447. Kirk - May 16, 2013

Fans complain way too much. The worst thing movie makers could do is give the fans everything they want. Like Kirk, they took a big risk based on gut instinct, broke a few rules, and it all paid off big time!

448. Crone - May 16, 2013

@437 Potholes in space? And I thought our roads were bad enough here! ;-)

A good film gives you a “morning after glow” and a desire to see it again. I have both.

Lots of fun.. next time a little slower? I would like more moments of character development that give you a chance to breathe in between the action sequences. The banter is a lot of fun, but often hard to understand amidst all the explosions! Maybe I am just old and slowing down, but not every moment has to go by a break neck speed. The richness of Trek is in the characters. I am so grateful that @boborci and gang have kept them flying, now give us some more moments that help us get to know them in this incarnation. Actually, I think what I am saying is that we need a new TV series in addition to these enjoyable films.

449. sjmort - May 16, 2013

by the way @BobOrci – I did very much enjoy the film and look forward to seeing it again and the next installment :)

450. martin - May 16, 2013

A note on the 3D. Saw it in Dolby Digital 3D. Taking the family to this on Sunday…

In a number of 3D films, starting with Avatar, and very noticable to me with Jurassic Park, it seems as if the actors are somehow smaller than they should seem in 3D. When I saw Jurassic Park a couple weeks back, I was bothered with how small Sam Neill, Richard Attenboro, and even Wayne Knight looked on the screen. Laura Dern was so small she looked anorexic.

Whatever causes that effect, and I thought it was the 3d conversion in post processing which caused an almost inverse distance perspective, that wasn’t evident to me last night watching the film. While I tend to adjust to that effect over the first act in those movies (Jurassic Park 3D is incredible BTW) – there was none of that with Trek.

This might have been that I have Jurassic Park and Iron Man over the past couple weeks, but I got the feeling that the overall the 3D here is either more subtle or something else just made it better. Warp is freaking awesome.

451. Canyunman67 - May 16, 2013

I’m not gonna go crazy with a hyperanalysis of every scene and plot point…I will just say that as an old school Trekkie in his mid 40′s who really loved ST09, this was an absolutely badass movie. Loved loved loved it. Kinda getting sick of the complaints. People have been complaining about these movies in one form or another since 1979. Finally–FINALLY-we get the movies we deserve…and there’s complaining.

“But–but–this isn’t STAR TREK!””

Yeah, it is. This absolutely “felt” like a Trek movie to me. Those were absolutely the characters I loved when I was young.

You don’t like it? Fine. Go whip out your DVD’s of “Insurrection” or STV or VGer or “Generations” or “Nemesis” and watch those movies instead with “space exploration-y things” or the bald british dude sipping his earl grey (hot) and monologuing for 2 hours over bad FX and awful plot points.

I had one, and only one complaint…the Kirk death scene was very moving (yeah yeah, I know it mirrors ST2…whatevs, it was an amazing scene) and just as it sank in, we moved on to something else. I didn’t have time to process what I had just seen. Would’ve liked it if that moment was extended a bit.

Well done. Going again tonight. LIke it or not Trek is relevant again. And, it was also a great showcase for Star Wars. Congrats to JJ and the team for scoring that gig as well.

Looking very much forward to ST3 in 2016….THANK YOU!

452. Crone - May 16, 2013

@ Martin above. I completely agree- this was the most enjoyable 3D I remember seeing. The film is stunning to look at and the IMAX 3-d was wonderful- great sound as well, and I loved the score.

453. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@376. TerranGuy93:
“The film is visually beautiful and well acted.

The story is a jumbled mess of poorly paced hack writing that is mostly just a mash up of Trek 09 and Wrath of Khan”

This seems to be a major consensus I’ve read and heard a lot. i however cannot overlook the bad story and bad ideas making up the whole thing, it undermined the actors and their performances-even the great Greenwood. That’s why this movie fails at everything except being a rambling mess.

454. Aashlee - May 16, 2013

Well, in the past, I stated over and over in various Trek Movie threads that I didn’t want to see Khan in a sequel. So when the big reveal happened about John Harrison’s real identity, I was disappointed. HOWEVER, as the film continued and more of this universe’s Khan backstory unfolded, this reimagining of the Khan saga began to win me over. At his core was his drive to control, and control everything. As Admiral Marcus used him (and I imagine Marcus authorized plastic surgery to alter Khan’s appearance so he’d remain unrecognized), he used Admiral Marcus. I could see that Khan was building up his resources so that he’d be ready to conquer the Federation in STID as he had tried in “Space Seed” and, later, in WOK. Eventually he would have awakened the other 72 companions, his “family,” to do it. When the admiral’s activities threatened his “family,” Khan accelerated his offensive, going on the attack. It all made sense, and I would have been sympathetic to the character except that he was so ruthless. In short, I liked this interpretation of Khan, and I have nothing but praise for Benedict Cumberbatch.

I liked the underlying threat of Admiral Marcus to Starfleet’s charter: to explore and learn. (Peter Weller was absolutely amazing. Wonderful!) If Ambassador Sarek had encountered an Admiral Marcus in the primeverse, I can understand why he’d be so reluctant to have his son enlist. But I digress… Anyway, I can see that parallels to the kind of threat that Marcus represents with the internal threats to our government(s) and society today. I like the call to refocus on what we want to achieve, what we want to become instead of trying to beat everyone else into submission. That’s so classic Trek. Thank you for that!

Pike’s death scene was touching, and Spock and Kirk’s reactions so fitting.

I liked the development between Kirk and Spock, all the relationship-building interactions. Kirk’s familiar brashness and Spock’s wise-assery and dry wit were consistent with the primeverse. I have said before that Chris Pine brought out the essence of Kirk in the first movie; now he embodies it. Zachary Quinto…omigosh, I can heap enough accolades on what he brings to the younger version of Nimoy’s iconic character. I can see how Kirk and Spock are each stepping out of themselves, rethinking their approaches to their responsibilities and their personal lives. Watching the process of these two halves becoming “greater than the sum of all parts” in the next movie should, I’m sure, prove “fascinating.”

My only criticism was the “KHHHHAAANNNN!” It didn’t seem in character. Sure, Spock’s been known to lose his cool, but I would think that Kirk’s death would have made Spock go inward — scary-quiet, but his eyes would shoot lasers and there would be steam coming out of his ears. He, then, would get his anger out of his system by pummeling Khan later, as he eventually did. But not until then.

A question: Why did you send Christine Chapel off to the far edges of the galaxy? Would she have been too much of a distraction?

I give this movie a 94 out of 100. :-) And, yes, I’ll be seeing it again — multiple times.

Request for the next movie: More integration of McCoy into the triumvirate.

Thank you, Bob Orci et al., for a super-fun flick. I look forward to the next adventure.

455. harley3k - May 16, 2013

boborci,

Loved the film!

Was it ever considered to make John Harrison, just another member from Kahn’s crew, and end the film with a shot of RIcardo M in a cryo-tube? I realize that would have left an unresolvable (unfilmable) cliffhanger out in the story, so maybe you could’ve killed Ricardo-rendered-Kahn off in a flashback, as Harrison is telling his motivation for revenge.

456. SpockOut - May 16, 2013

Mr. Orci,

Awesome movie! It had the suspense and mystery of Fringe/Lost and the energy of MI3.

I loved the spin on Khan. Will he be mothballed like the Arc from Raiders of the Lost Arc or will he be awakened :)

Will Khan’s blood extend Kirk’s life or give him enhanced mental focus and strength in any degree?

I was discouraged when you discused conspiracy theories in previous threads. I thought you might take the franchise into some Oliver Stone bat poo direction. It was settle and effective. It showed what a soldier is capable of without proper oversight.

I hope everyone is able to come back for a third movie. I understand if JJ Abrams doesn’t have the time. I hope the quality continues. You did the franchise amazing service :-)

457. Q the Q - May 16, 2013

Was it really necessary to have all the violence? I mean, really, even if it was off-screen, hearing the sound of Kahn crushing Admiral Marcus’s head??? And why did the Vengeance (which was called “Dreadnought-class,” whatever that means) HAVE to crash into downtown San Francisco, presumably killing tens of thousands of people?? I know that terrorism must now be accepted in the United States — and elsewhere around the world — as a fact of life, but Star Trek is also supposed to be about a truly better world in the future, with the ability of an organization like Starfleet to be able to deter this kind of activity — to create a Federation that knows that a “Section 31″-type of endeavour is something that only a small minority of people would try to undertake. And while we’re on the subject of Section 31, it seems like Abrams made a big mistake not taking advantage of a scene or two to actually EXPLAIN what Section 31 is all about! If you’re not a true Trekkie/Trekker, you would have absolutely no idea of the Trek history associated with Section 31 — that this organization has a longstanding history with Star Trek, something that both fans and non-fans would enjoy hearing more about. It would have made for a more “fullsome” and entertaining movie. Instead, it seems like Abrams et. al. chose to emphasize action over substance. It could easily have been a more balanced approach, something that a movie that was only two hours and three minutes in total length could have afforded. Just my opinion, of course! I give it a 7.5 out of 10.

458. Aashlee - May 16, 2013

Correction to #451 “omigosh, I can heap enough accolades on what he brings to the younger version of Nimoy’s iconic character….”

That should be “I CANNOT heap enough accolades….” Truly!

459. Julio Scissors - May 16, 2013

Saw the film last night with my wife (non-Trekkie) and three friends (all fans of the series). I thought, in the end, it was “OK”.

PROS

- Acting was very good (Pine was a standout for me)
- The humorous moments worked very well
- The effects were absolutely amazing
- The Klingons were awesome
- I liked that Scotty got a little side-story
- Sulu’s brief stint as captain was fun
- Greenwood was also excellent
- Writers did a good job in giving all the cast members their own “moments” (must be difficult with a cast this large)

CONS

- For me, things whizzed by so fast that there was no time to add any nuances to the plot.
- I did not care for the “Michael Bay” style of constant explosions and yelling, etc.
- I couldn’t suspend disbelief enough to not be bothered with some of the more gaping logic holes in the story.

It was worth seeing, but I probably won’t see it again. I am grateful for everyone involved in making the movie and keeping Star Trek alive. Despite the fact that I didn’t think STID was anything more than “OK”, I am very much looking forward to the next installment. I only hope it is paced a tad more slowly to give the audience time to let the story sink in between the action scenes.

BTW, my wife (the non-Trekkie) liked the film more than I did. My Trekkie friends did as well.

460. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#445 “Fans complain way too much. The worst thing movie makers could do is give the fans everything they want”

Yes, the worst thing they could do is give fans what we want: intelligence and originality. Oh, no, wait, that’s the BEST thing they could do.

461. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@377. Creed:
perfect example of when a convenient plot device is used without much thought of it’s affect going forward. It can create an enormous loose thread easily capable of undoing your story being looked at in any serious manner.

462. Mr. Hyde - May 16, 2013

Didn’t like Khan being transformed into a generic comic book-villain, even though Cumberbatch was great in his own right.
Didn’t like the movies plot completely falling apart in the second half of the movie, but I liked the way it aimed to right some of the wrongs of Trek ’09 (Like Starfleet having been described as “A humanitarian and peacekeeping armada” – NO, that’s not what it is. It’ military in structure only and Starfleet’s main goal is actually exploration – Thanks for setting the record straight in concern to this point in STID)
I didn’t like most of the tacked-on Trek-references (just too much obvious fanservice!), but I liked some of the “trekkiness” that stemmed solely from character interaction (great joint effort by the writers staff, JJ Abrams AND of course the actors in these moments)
I actually liked the acting in general: Cumberbatch is glorious. Pine, Quinto, Urban and especially Pegg really managed to give life and soul to their characters. Still I wonder if there will ever be a point where Quinto’s Spock will NOT get angry…. That “KHAAAAAAAAN!”-scene was… not so good.

Since there have been a lot of full-fledged reviews in this comment section, I will not go into detail any further but simply sum up my feelings as: This movie’s a mixed bag in a helluva lot of regards and I really hope that the franchise’s next installment will have a more coherent script and be less dependenct on mere brand recognition as that eventually made this movie (or at least its second half) feel a lot like a generic scifi action flick with Trek references strewn in for that very purpose.

463. Bob Mack - May 16, 2013

I’m not a proponent of bringing Khan back in the new film but it was a great movie. Great direction, great acting, well paced, well put together. Almost everything worked. I got all the spoilers ahead of time and was skeptical but the film delivers.

The Khan piece was done well and differently than TWOK but it will continue to bother me that the story was extremely strong without Khan being Khan. He could have been John Harrison and we would have loved it. Having him be Khan just opens the door to questions that don’t help the film along and that don’t get answered if you’re not a TOS fan.

Outside of Khan my only suggestion to alter the film slightly would have been to make the Vengeance’ pursuit of the Enterprise a little longer and more intricate. The sequence makes it look like it’s only a few miles from Kronos to Earth. The scope of the Trek galaxy seems small.

“Having said that,” I’m very curious to know if the actors and director had concerns about some of the very heavily emotional scenes. They were deep and plentiful. They were also pulled off extremely well but I have to wonder if there were concerns from the actors about going as far as they did. Seeing it on paper might have been intimidating. I gotta think some of those choices in the script (which worked out beautifully) might have been high risk choices as well.

Is it a part of the trust and comfort that the writers have with these actors that allows them to write these kind of scenes knowing that the actors are capable of delivering? Do the actors get nervous when they first see that sort of thing in the script? I mean, Kirk, Spock and Khan all got pretty weepy!

Cumberbatch was brilliant. Period. But I am impressed that Pine stood side by side with him and still wasn’t overshadowed. Impressive, Mr. Pine. Quinto was equally impressive and I don’t think I’m alone in saying that even the smaller roles were done very well. I’d welcome more of Mr. Sulu and John Cho in the next film too!

Lastly, Simon Pegg deserves some special recognition for his role in this film. Without him, the film would have been too frenetic and too heavy, in my opinion. Kudos to the writers for assembling his part so that it punctuated the heavy stuff at all the right times and kept the audience emotionally engaged. Kudos to Mr. Pegg for delivering it.

464. Jack Zymurgy - May 16, 2013

@boborci

I loved the movie- but I’m begging you, get JJ and Pegg to turn “I’ve been off this ship for one day” to “I’ve been off this ship for one week” so that you don’t throw people out of the film.

Warp travel/science aside- there’s just no way all that could happen in a single day. Zero. Not even to Kiefer Sutherland.

That aside- you guys did with Khan what Hendrix did with Dylan’s Watchtower. You took something great made by a legend and instead of just setting for a cover, you made it utterly your own. Well done! That took HUGE coconuts.

465. Mr. Hyde - May 16, 2013

Damnit:
*”the movies plot” is of course supposed to mean “the movie’s plot”
*”in concern” should of read “in regard to”

Should get some sleep. I’ll be in my bunk.

466. Virginia - May 16, 2013

#454 Q the Q -i agree with most of what you said.
this film just disturbed me.
not much of a “future” to look forward to.

467. Hoosier Joe - May 16, 2013

Saw it last night at the 8pm EST screening (got a little poster too)…..

6 of us together, and everyone really liked it. I do not think it is the best movie in the franchise (Ssill, TWOK is the best), but it is up there. It is better than 2009′s movie, but is not quite as good as First Contact and Undiscovered Country.

I will say: the acting in this one was superb, particularly from Chris Pine and Benedict Cumberbatch. This film packed more emotion into it than any of the prior 11 films.

And it is very action packed. However, I did not care for the space battle scenes (they happened too fast: if they wanted to do an alt- version of TWOK, why not a more Reliant v. Enterprise type battle, submarine warfare style than the Enterprise getting pounded on by a ridiculously large starship in jump-cut fashion).

Still, the crowd at our premiere was full-on Trekkie: mostly 30 and 40 year olds. There were some groans during the big-reveal, but all in all everyone cheered and laughed, and even some cried during the part (no spoilers) where the movie REALLY goes into TWOK territory.

Hope everyone has a good time seeing the movie. And just to make sure: watch Admiral Marcus’ desk: of all of the model ships on the desk, the third from the last is the NX-01 (or a registry similar to it). I nearly jumped out of my seat when I saw that. I would like to know: did anyone else catch any “easter eggs” during the movie? That was about the only one that I spotted.

468. Obsidian - May 16, 2013

Bob – - TNG still deserves a decent send off. How about a JJverse movie that includes the Prime NCC1701 E somehow entering the JJverse through some sort of wormholey thingy?

Where the plot goes from there is your job of course. :)

Part of the plot would no doubt be getting the E back to the prime universe. And – maybe – prime Spock has a decision to make – stay in the JJverse and continue to help NuVulcan, or return to his universe?

Wild idea? I suppose. But a little wildness couldn’t hurt… much…

469. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2013

@161. Justin Olson,
“If you’re going to use Khan, use him because the story absolutely demands it — it can’t possibly be anyone else.”

Well said.

Orci didn’t really respond to this; how could he? He admitted Harrison could be anybody. Conceiving what you need the bad guy to do to motivate the principals journey, and then shoe-horning an iconic character into that hollow vessel because he’s too “juicy” is not exactly a compelling reason.

470. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

In protest of the long winded and narcissistic douchebaggery of exhaustive STID reviews, I’m just going to make one comment at a time.

Re Transwarp beaming: Cumberpatch beams out in a seated position and arrives in Qu’onos in a crouch, suggesting that there as at least one stop before beaming between distant systems. If it hasn’t been referenced later in the movie, we might just as easily assume that he warped there and beamed from a second ship. Basically, I’m not too bothered by the idea that starships are now somehow obsolete. I think it works within the dangerous butterfly effect of Nero’s temporal disruption.

471. Commander K - May 16, 2013

@boborci….the Enterprise didn’t fire once in the whole movie…was this because a substitute sound couldnt be found in time to replace the ‘pew pew’ photon torpedo noise of the last movie? :P

472. Riker's Dad - May 16, 2013

Awesome movie! But I was very curious about who would be voicing the computer. I can’t remember hearing the ship speak one time.

473. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

“Very Dishonest statement”

How was that dishonest when it was true. Not to downplay the films, because they were great and at times mostly original, but they did play on aspects of some of the most famous of the comics and did it right. I had no complaints…

Regarding Into Darkness…I think most haters and complainers miss one of the very Star Trek themes that this movie did SO great one..the theme of Family. The reactor scene helped show Spock just what Kirk was motived by..it drove the theme of family and the extreme sacrafices one makes for his family and showed helped drive that home for a DIFFERENT Spock, which I love. An original Spock who has been shown a more human way of life, even by his own father. Loved it and and the scene, even if the Khan scream was kinda funny. Still.

Shed some man tears with Chris Pike dying, but it helped push Kirk into “shatner kirk” realm without going full unoriginal route.

Either way, it’s a shame that so many are blinded by the action portions and the “it’s not my trek attitude”…they are not realizing that at the core, this is very star trek movie at it’s heart, even if it is an action flick and plays it light on the “real physics” stuff

474. SteveZ1701 - May 16, 2013

@Bob Orci

Lifelong trekkie

Hey I really enjoyed the movie. I thought it was an interesting spin on Space Seed and even a little homage to TWOK. I loved how the Kirk-Spock friendship was forged with Kirk’s temporary death being the catalyst for Spock to understand what friendship is while Kirk earns the captain rank this time and understands the kind of captain he needs to be.

I liked you bringing in Section 31 from DS9, although, I thought that could have been fleshed out a little more. I like the idea of Starfleet changing since the destruction of Vulcan. I also thought the conflict with the Klingons could have been explored a little more (maybe next movie?).

I liked how Khan, that even though he was doing Marcus’ bidding to save his crew, he also had the same motives as he had from Space Seed and that ultimately he wanted to be free to rule earth again. I will say I wish that his back story was fleshed out a little more, even though I know it lol. Carole Marcus was a little weak, but I hope you have the chance to build her character in the next one.

As much as I love Leonard Nimoy, I thought the cameo was a little cheap and unnecessary to be honest. Did the crew even know the existence of the older Spock living in their timeline? I thought it was just Kirk and Spock who knew.

Look forward to the next one as they embark on the 5 year mission!

Don’t let Kirk become admiral in this timeline please.

475. Brian - May 16, 2013

@ 436 Crone Exactly, but it would of also been a nice link up between the origal series first encounter and the new “first” encounter. I’ve been reading a lot of people giving out about the film pandering to the old fans (the Spock cameo etc) but the film is for old and new fans alike so why not pander.

476. Dennis Bailey - May 16, 2013

It doesn’t matter that Khan’s white.

This movie captures a lot of what Star Trek has always been like when it was good.

477. FrancoMiranda - May 16, 2013

A nice moment I really enjoyed:

Kirk, just prior to entering the radioactive zone, knocks out Scotty. And then he goes back and carefully belts Scotty into a chair to make sure he doesn’t get hurt. Some might think he did it to stop Scotty getting up and foiling his plan, but I choose to think Kirk was concerned for Scotty in the event he failed, or if there were any other large shifts before the ship was fixed.

A nice moment – caring side to the character,

478. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@391. Captain_Conrad:

-”I can understand wanting more original style Trek,”

YIKES. Just Yikes.

-”Star Trek: The Motion Picture would tank hard if it were made today.”

remade by Abrams and bad robot The Motion Picture could be a smash hit success, they are more apt money makers than film makers. yet with so little resemblance and missing every important plot point and thought provoked from The Motion Picture, it would be a butchering of the source material. so why bother with it?

and that is the same question that should be forever asked of into darkness.

479. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

473.

People would really be complaining if Sulu was white I’m sure… But since it’s Khan… who cares right?

480. Hoosier Joe - May 16, 2013

Also, not really an easter egg, just an observation: when the Enterprise warps away for the last time in the film, is the impulse engine in the back of the primary hull bigger? I really tried to notice if there were any changes in the ship…..that was really the only change that I was able to see before it shot into warp. Did anybody else notice anything that changed, even on the interior (the final bridge scene)? Very curious about that if the Enterprise will look a little different in the next film.

The nacelles look the same, which I actually thought they might change (to make it look more like TOS). Anyone’s thoughts or observations on that, and from my previous post about any easter eggs and/or shout outs to other series (Example: NX-01 on Marcus’ desk) or references to TOS that anyone spotted? I am “understandably curious”…. :)

481. Dan Potacke - May 16, 2013

This movie had a fabulous energy, bouncing from set piece to set piece at a frenetic pace while remaining coherent and focused. Compared to The Avengers where the movie’s first act is bogged down with exposition, this film is lean and efficient. Nor to sequences feel disconnected from the rest of the film, unlike the opening act of Return of the Jedi. Plot twists aren’t tossed out to shock the audience, they legitimately move the story forward. Khan isn’t used simply because of the Joker rule of reboots: “Bring out the big villain for movie 2,” he’s used because it fits in with the theme of a desperate/militarizing Starfleet. .

The pacing wasn’t perfect, the third act went on a bit too long, I was tired by the time Khan’s ship crashed into San Francisco which was a shame as the final fistfight between Spock and Khan was fantastic. Still, telling a good story while respecting the spectacle requirements of a worldwide blockbuster is incredibly difficult and this movie does a great job, particularly in the utterly fantastic first two acts.

I also loved the threads that were picked up from the 2009 film. Kirk’s lack of experience in command, the destruction of Vulcan, the impact of advanced technology introduced to the 23rd century: all of those impacted Into Darkness. If those elements had been dropped, they would have felt like a series of contrivances that were just used to get the chess pieces in place. Instead, the last film had real consequences and this film and ’09 form a fabulous duology. I didn’t that the 2009 film didn’t close with Pine giving the monologue but he didn’t earn it until the end of this film.

The dialog and acting was sharp. Pine and Quinto sold the heck out of their arcs that carried on seamlessly from the previous film. The evolution and solidification of the Kirk and Spock brotherhood was the absolute best part of the film, hands down. Plus, it worked without the script beating us over the head with it. Urban and Pegg did amazing work with their scenes as well. I would have liked to seen more done with Zoe Saldana’s Uhura since she was such a bright spot of the last film. I don’t really care about Chekov and Sulu, there are there because they have to be there. I also feel like I don’t have to mention Benedict Cumberbatch’s acting as Khan because everybody else in the world is rightly singing his praises. Damn, that Benedict guy can sell a scene.

While I’ll get to my big criticism in a second, I did love some of the lighter Easter Egg-style references. I never, ever, EVER thought I would see a Star Trek movie featuring Section 31 and the Dreadnought-class as plot points. Those were neat tips of the hat that didn’t feel distracting. Fan-service is tough but those references were done very well.

I can also forgive the parts of Trek lore that are glossed over. Incredibly fast warp drive, sure! The story needs it. Underwater Enterprise, sure! It looked really cool. The transporter’s wildly varying abilities… okay, that bugged me a little but the transporter has been like that in every iteration of Star Trek. Plus, transporters don’t really exist, it is all made up. If you asked 18-year old me, these nitpicks would have been worthy of huffing and puffing over so I understand the fans that have these issues but it is all rather silly.

The film’s biggest weakness for me was definitely the copy and pasted Wrath of Khan reactor scene. I loved Kirk’s actual death scene, Pine and Quinto were great and the original portions of the dialogue were fantastic. But the homage dialogue took me out of the film. It wasn’t a problem for my fiancee and she loved the whole sequence but she’s not an Original Series fan. I would have loved to see Kirk sacrifice himself in one of a thousand other ways. For me, the dramatic climax of the film should stand on its own, not be a game of guess the next reference. I felt like I was punished for knowing Star Trek so well.

Which is a shame because the film did a great job with scenes that felt like spiritual tributes to other moments in the original universe. A Prime Directive conflict and Scotty sabotaging an advanced starship trying to hunt down the Enterprise were both well handled. The climax was just too on the nose for me.

Of course, I’ll admit the creative team was in a bit of a no-win scenario themselves. Kirk’s sacrifice for his crew was needed for the denouement of the Kirk and Spock arc, but if Kirk sacrificed himself in a different way, there would be a ton of accusations that this film “ripped off Wrath of Khan.” By outright lifting the scene, the writers are able to show that they are aware of that. It’s a neat trick, the Trek screenwriting equivalent of cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test.

One last fan service complaint. I know that somebody has to shout out “KHAN!” at some point in the movie. But coming right after Kirk ‘died,’ it made for an inappropriate joke line at a moment of high tension. Spock’s anger in that scene was palpable, he was scary. Shouting out the cheesy catchphrase even non-Trek fans know made it silly.

Overall, a very good movie and one I’d like to reassess after seeing it a second time, less distracted by the reactor scene. It is definitely a worthy film both as a summer blockbuster and as a Star Trek film.

Now, where do you go from here? The crew has moved towards being a family, Kirk has learned to respect what it means to be the captain of the Enterprise and they are out on the 5-year mission. So many of the interesting origin story threads are wrapped up. The next Star Trek will be even more of a challenge.

482. needsofthemany - May 16, 2013

Did anyone catch where Christine Chapel was stated to have gone? Was it Exo III (Korby’s planet)?

483. Julian - May 16, 2013

I just want to know if anyone picked out the little bit of music from another series or film that MG said he put into the film. Anyone?

484. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2013

@412 Martin,
“Khan’s waking is triggered as soon as someone sets foot on the Botany Bay. That programming doesn’t change if the waking happens 8 years earlier.”

Khan’s cryo tube malfunctioned and if not for McCoy would have died. No guarantee Khan did not die when Marcus boarded the ship.

————————–
“What leads anyone to think Khan = any other augment? Harrison’s claim “I am better” is not just vs any current human, it also means his followers. These are Khan’s followers, not other superleaders of his time.”

What leads you to think otherwise? Opinion. None of this is canon, therefore anybody’s opinion in this matter is valid until addressed on screen — even Orci’s. I don’t believe it is stated anywhere in Space Seed that Khan’s crew are his “followers”. He thinks they were sworn to live and die at his command, but that doesn’t mean they do not have aspirations to be superleaders, or are incapable of it, nor are willing to do what it takes to usurp power from Khan. Indeed Space Seed makes a point of saying they fought amongst themselves. Enterprise expanded on that and showed considerable Machiavellian antics among the augments.

As far as I’m concerned, Khan’s tube malfunctioned, and was left for dead upon Marcus’ arrival. Harrison was revived next and, like Khan in Space Seed assessed what was going on before answering anybody’s questions, then asserted he was “Khan” (just ‘Khan’ as Montalban had done) explaining the first cryo tube was an ‘engineer’ (See what I did there). But something in Khan’s blood would not let him die, as discovered by the medics and he was transferred to a new stasis pod and refrozen with the rest, while Harrison continued to masquerade as the “Khan” Marcus was seeking.

Nothing in STID contradicts this.

485. chrisfawkes.com - May 16, 2013

Just saw it third time tonight.

A couple of things.

1. The world seemed like a much bigger place this time. In 09 earth seemed to comprise of Starfleet Academy.

2. In the scene where Scotty comes through at the last second to shut down the dreadnoughts weapons I would have loved it if Kirk had been aware that was going to happen. Similar to how he shut down the Reliant’s shields in Twok.

486. Mr. James - May 16, 2013

I’m going to scrub my eyes and pretend this one doesn’t exist, just like ST5 the Search for GOD.
After seeing Into Darkness last night my friends and I discussed it in length and want to put out a promising storyline for the next one. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE…do something original. Or, if you HAVE to pull from the past let’s use some OTHER star trek vehicles. How about seeing a storyline that would make you feel like there was REAL peril…maybe a prequel type of story line showing us the origins of the BORG? They’ve been around for AGES and perhaps this one would jut show us where it all began? “An away trip to an alien planet where machines and biological plant life evolved but never had mobile capabilities UNTIL they melded with some young ensign on the away team? Starts to ‘infect’ the ship’s crew and you get a real terror type of film.
Just a thought and a nice way to finish off the trilogy to make it a good book end or a starting point for a 4th film.
Just DON’T give us Klingons in ANOTHER original ST rehash/retread.

487. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

Khan’s ability to withstand five phaser stuns like a punch in the arm is dubious plotting, but I’m way on the other side of the CW on Mr. Singh.

1. Montalban was Spanish, not mestizo Mexican. He was a European who wore tanning makeup to appear vaguely Sikh.
2. Northern Indians, the geographical home of Sikhs, are descended from ancient Caucasians who immigrated from the mountains between Georgia and Iran in 1750BCE, exactly like Europeans.
3. Today, if you find the right doctor, you can get laser surgery to turn your dark eyes blue because all eyes are blue beneath the layers of pigmentation that cause hazel, brown and green eyes. There are any number of technologies to deprive a person of melanin and turn dark skin light. It’s foolhardy to assume that Section 31, 300 years hence, would not employ some of this technology to disguise their genocidal secret agent whose face appeared in TOS library computer.

In summary, the ‘Khan’t believe he’s white’ contingency doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Khan has been portrayed by a European twice. Sikhs are genetic cousins of Europeans. The plot demands and provides ample technology for Khan’s disguise from his historical appearance to his clandestine appearance as John Harrison. Finally, given that he’s a terrorist, it’d have been foolish to cast based on ethnicity. We’d all be listening to douchebags debate Star Trek’s racism on TV this week.

488. Grud - May 16, 2013

Why did they have to repeat the “Im going to sacrifice myself by going into a reactor room thats full of radioactive energy to save the ship” routine. We saw it in WoK already so why not try something new?

Instead of that why not make Kirk grab a shuttle and sacrifice himself by ramming the other ship’s weapons or something?

My only gripes was that it started to follow the WoK template in the third act.

489. opcode - May 16, 2013

@395:
“And I liked the 5-year mission setup at the end, thought it felt a little odd to see everyone back to normal and happy/cheery after everything that just happened.”

That happens a year later, so seems natural to me.

490. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

#482

Yes like how he cheated on the km test too!

Would have been a nice payoff and lol at admiral marcus and a big FU

491. Jorg Sacul - May 16, 2013

Hmmm.. in the TOS Mirror Universe, Kirk rose to command via the assassination of Captain Pike… In the JJVerse, Kirk rose to command via the assassination of Admiral Pike.

Coincidence? I. Think. Not.

The third movie will tell the voyages of the I.S.S. Enterprise, after the Klingon war causes the Federation to fall into a despotic empire..

492. Daigs - May 16, 2013

I loved the movie. I think they did a very good all around. I’ll be interested to see how well it holds up after multiple viewings.

A few thoughts, however…

Growing up watching the TOS movies. I almost feel as though those films and what happened in them was “reality” for me. The new movies almost feel like putting the original crew on a reality TV show. Like they’re trying to be a little too over the top.

I had read spoilers before going so I knew what was going to happen, but damn, it was such a rush when Benedict revealed himself as Khan.

No real moments in this movie stand out quite as memorable scenes. in TWOK, Spock’s death was a memorable scene for example. I get the homage, and the reasoning behind it, but part of me wishes they hadn’t used it. Hearing Scotty say “You’ll flood the whole compartment” and how some it played out was interesting, but well I’m not sure how I feel about it just yet. Did they give Nick Meyer a writing credit? They should have.

I really liked Peter Weller’s character. Definitely badass. Again, not a surprise to see him as a bad guy, but it was cool.

The Klingons were scary. I think by the time TNG and DS9 had run their course, they lost their edge. If I ran into this guy with his piercings and those eyes, eek. Was that Praxis in orbit?

Khan being a brit doesn’t phase me one bit. There are a number of ways to explain that. But really, it’s a movie. Ricardo Montalban was a few shades lighter in TWOK than in Space Seed. Perhaps in 15 years we’ll see Chris Pine and Benedict reprise their roles? It makes me wonder how much more he’d be hell bent on Kirk’s destruction after this.

Going back to my comment on what may be a lack of memorable scenes. I know TPTB are signed for 3 movies, I really hope there’s a chance for more. I get the first movie had to bring the crew together and this one brought them to be the people we knew them as. But in a way, it’s kind of a bummer to think that the next movie may be it for this universe. It seems like now they can really start telling new stories and doing their own thing instead of building this crew up. I hope they don’t stop at 3. That may also impact how this movie is viewed in the future. STIII by itself is a so-so film. But when you look at as the bridge from TWOK to TVH, it feels like a much stronger movie.

Curious how this one will fare.

But all in all, I was very entertained and will be going back to see it a few more times in theaters.

493. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

I think it’s a testiment to the job that Ricardo Montalban did as Khan that folks, both inside and outside of Trek think of him as the ultimate adversary of the Enterprise crew. Speaks volumes to what that man did with his character in the limited screen time he had. I have no problem with Cumberpatch playing him because he did such an amazing job further bringing to life what Mr Montalban did before him while going an original route. Love it and love the fact that film makers look back to Khan in that light due to the amazing performances that Ricardo Montalban gave

494. NuFan - May 16, 2013

“I thought it was really fun, an inventive, surprising rethinking of some of “Star Trek’s” most hallowed inventions, but I’m not wedded to the source material as gospel. Trekkies will think it’s a desecration. So, pick your side.” – Arizona Republic

I love it when trekkies get desecrated!

495. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@465. Obsidian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNEkXk9vcs

Annnnnnd Everything Is Fixed.

496. Bill Peters - May 16, 2013

@ BobIOrci

This is what I posted on Facebook for people with Autism that I help:

Star Trek Into Darkness IS an Awesome Movie for People with Autism, thought it is Sci-FI and has a few things in it that are not real, it show the Progression of a Friendship, What one does to make and Keep Friends, How you gain the Trust of others, how you build a feeling for who is on your side and who isn’t.

Now it does have Death, fights, Starships, Klingons,ect but beyond that it shows things outside the normal way people with Autism see the world, how everything isn’t always at first what it seems. The only part you might have to expalne is one Secene near the end not Spoling it that isn’t Real but if you talk after the film you will be able to point that out that what was done in that sence isn’t possable at this time.

Star Trek Into Darkness is Rated PG-13 , if you have doubts see it yourself before taking someone on the spectrum but there are great messages in it.

BOB, this movie In my mind can be a tool for helping Adults and teens with Autism Understand the world around them better, the Issues you bring out about Friendship, Trust, Betrayal, Loyalty, and showing that things are not always what they seem are great for people with Autism to see and to know cause this movie too them can help them Relate to a world they may not understand otherwise.

STID has me very Emotional as someone with Autism who enjoyed it very much and who mentors others with Autism, Thanks and I hope We have something Great for the 50th.

497. Luther Sloan - May 16, 2013

Well.. thank you for the spoilers EW…. http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/EW.png

498. JimJ - May 16, 2013

Karen nails it. I went back and read what she said and it is EXACTLY why I love this movie SOOOOOO much! I do feel badly for those who hate on it, but people will be people. It’s just too bad that some want to go back to what was, even though it’s impossible to do that again.

499. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

I just wish the movie took 30 seconds to explain Khans appearance as we’re all making up secnarios in our heads to compensate for the appearance difference. It left me wanting for an explanation I’ll never get…

500. RedEngineer - May 16, 2013

Apologies, friends, but I gonna swim against the tide here and say that I thought STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS was cheap, empty, a waste of a great cast, and a HUGE missed opportunity.

And I’m really, really sorry that I feel that way. :(

501. IbPalle - May 16, 2013

Saw STID Saturday in IMAX 3D.

Still on the fence a bit about the quality.

However I do expect that when I get the bluray and rewatch a few times or 10, my view will be modified as it was with ST09.

I think the fast pace is somewhat detrimental to the often very clever storytelling and canon-weaving (is that a word?) that the writing team creates. With ST09 I only really got to appreciate it after 3 or 4 rewatches. I fully expect the same to happen with STID.

One thing I did love was the Kirk/Spock dialogue in the reactor room. #66 nailed it I think and I choked up suitably – just as I did back in the TWOK days. Especially Kirk’s “What I would do, what you would do..” part was spot on and as a whole Pine delivers again as Kirk.

502. series - May 16, 2013

This movie sums up why we need a series. A series is what allows us to get really deep in the weeds regarding Star Trek.

503. entropy - May 16, 2013

Khan should have died in the reactor chamber saving the enterprise, while his FAMILY was still onboard. What an incredible arc that would be. Opportunity lost. Why can we never see villains redeem themselves? Really?

Imagine it…Marcus beating the hell out of the Enterprise and its i Khan who say…”I will go” i can withstand it because I am better yada yada….as he succeeds in saving the ship, his family , but becomes HUMBELED by his own death as finds he wasn’t that much better after all, he was human, and he died like a MAN.

504. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

486:

So BC is playing an Indian Sikh? Paint me not convinced with the performance then.

505. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@497. JimJ:
The Absolute Irony of what you said. Especially that last sentence.
Hilarious.

506. Michael Chang Gummelt - May 16, 2013

@488
“And I liked the 5-year mission setup at the end, thought it felt a little odd to see everyone back to normal and happy/cheery after everything that just happened.”

“That happens a year later, so seems natural to me.”

That wasn’t obvious to me in the movie, but even if someone mentioned that it’s been a year, it felt to fast in terms of the movie’s pacing. Give us at least one actual scene of someone expressing some grief, some emotion, some need to recover. Anything. Like the scene where David & Kirk reconcile after Spock’s funeral, but before Kirk goes to the bridge and speaks about feeling young. It was just too quick of a transition in terms of storytelling/pacing – something the entire movie suffered from (didn’t ruin it, but took some of the weightiness out of the events).

507. opcode - May 16, 2013

I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned so far the obvious reference to the US government assassination of Bin Laden being morally wrong.
STID is Trek at its best…

508. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

My take on STID, bottom line, is that J’s duology is a YA prequel to the five year mission. Young Adult novels are generally faster, lighter, and less detailed than a comparable adult fiction, and that’s what we got here: THE HOBBIT to (hopefully) the future films’ LORD OF THE RINGS.

I acknowledge JJ’s accomplishment, but I’m ready and the kids are old enough for an adult director to come on board. TOS’s various episodes had an operatic quality to them that moved between different tones and genres. Kevin Feige at Marvel has discussed how the Captain America and other Marvel movies are all of different genres, and I think Paramount and Bad Robot would do well to adopt that mindset. If every movie is a sentimental, daddy-obsessed roller coaster, then it’ll get boring in the next movie. Really really boring.

JJ called out Rian Johnson (LOOPER) as a director to watch. Rupert Wyatt (RISE OF THE PLANET OF THE APES) could deliver a worthy installment. Joseph Kosinski (TRON: LEGACY) would scare people, but I’d be over the moon about his Trek. Several have suggested Bryan Singer, and I think on some level his turn in the Trek director chair is inevitable.

JJ is entitled to his opinion about Trek being too talky and philosophical, but lets see how feels after a few years in the Mauschwitz merchandising machine reinventing Star Wars. He may just end up longing for provocative hard scifi.

509. Mitchell - May 16, 2013

@502. entropy:
That’ll be in the next one ha ha ha ;)

510. BatlethInTheGroin - May 16, 2013

#483: Well, sure, you can completely make up unsubstantiated scenarios–feel free. I, for example, think Harrison is a shape-shifting purple Mugato avenging the death of his pet Tellarite at the hands of Charles Evans. Nothing in the films says this isn’t the case.

511. Beck - May 16, 2013

Just wanna drop my two cents: Originality, or the lack thereof, does not make or break a movie, TV show or any other storytelling medium. Even Shakespeare – lauded as he is now – was mostly just retelling stories that his audience were already familiar with. The trick was – he told them better.

I haven’t seen ST:ID yet, but I’m going into it tomorrow with an open mind and ready to be entertained. Here’s hoping.

512. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

@498

I’m pretty sure we’ll get a ID Khan comic series like we did with Nero that will show him going through a change process.

513. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

503. It’s accepted as gospel that Khan is Sikh because of his name, but I believe the original line in the Space Seed only describes where they were based. It’s only his name that leads us to assume that his genetic material is also from the region. For all we know, he was genetically engineered from all available DNA and was posing as Sikh even in the 1990s.

And yes, the most educated and worldly Northern Indians sound British because of colonialism and its vestigial education system.

514. IbPalle - May 16, 2013

@502. entropy – Good ending. That would be a sight to see.

515. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

511:

That sounds good, I wish they would of hinted at something like that because besides that I was really happy with the movie.

516. Kirk - May 16, 2013

447. Crone I still think catering to picky fans will only lead to them complaining about something (anything) else. Fan films are cringe inducing examples of that. They have creative control but the results are embarrassing.

517. John BigBooteee - May 16, 2013

Mr. Orci, JJ & Crew, and TrekMovie:

Wanted to thank you for your efforts (which couldn’t have been easy!) to maintain an air of secrecy and expectancy about the film’s details and plot spoilers. It really enhanced the viewing, to have the twists, turns, and reveals happen right there on the big screen.

Thank You for an incredible film, and keep up the good work! Here;s hoping for a 2015 50-Yr Anniversary Film!!

518. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

512:

Check out “The first 150 years of the federation” goes into Khan more than space seed and TWOK.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Federation-First-Years/dp/1612184170

519. Shannon Nutt - May 16, 2013

There’s enough whiz-bang action in this to fool you into thinking you’re seeing a GOOD Star Trek movie. You’re not…it’s horribly written (the acting is solid though, I’ll give them that). This is a film two or three years from now people are going to be talking about as the worst Star Trek film ever (much in the same way people talk about Episode I now with Star Wars). Once you get by all the nifty effects, action, humor, and “nods” toward TOS, you realize the Emperor has no clothes. I give it a C-, sadly.

520. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - May 16, 2013

I saw the movie last night at 12:01am Central standard time. I was shocked to only see 10 people in the theater. It was 2D so I hope 3D is doing better.

I thought it was a good film. 2009 was better and had more emotion and more of a connection. “Into Darkness” while action packed, is unoriginal. It has some heart felt parts, but I believe it is working off a theme that was done 30 years ago. Were in a new universe……. DO SOMETHING NEW!!

I do appreciate JJ, Bob, and crew for making a good action adventure movie but I don’t think it stayed true to the essence of Star Trek. Maybe ill feel different after round 2 and I have more of a chance to soak it up.

521. Christopher Gainz - May 16, 2013

Please make me a Vulcan in Ur next film. I’m 23, male, have the Vulcan fringe and can be very emotionless lol. !!!!!

522. PEB - May 16, 2013

Hey Anthony, hope you do a post about the GREAT show that was on last night- Star Trek: Secrets of the Universe. It was on History Channel and it was GREAT GREAT GREAT! It was a 2 hour show that talked about the scientific possibilities of Star Trek and it focused alot on Into Darkness. There was a lot of behind the scenes clips and candid clips throughout the shooting of the film but the scientific discussions were really great. They talked about the possibilities of life in other galaxies, how humans would realisitically travel in deep space (in community settings), warp speed, etc. There was a lot of Rodenberry praise from JJ too. It was just a really awesome show and hopefully those who weren’t at the movie got to check it out.

523. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

@519. DS9 IN PRIME TIME

“but I don’t think it stayed true to the essence of Star Trek.”

it seems like everyone has a different opinion on what is the “true” essence of Star Trek.

524. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

If I was Khan, I would butter up to Admiral Marcus, assassinate him and try to become tops at starfleet, free 72 family members and turn starfleet into his empire and conquer Klingons.

Blowing up london facility and getting on shit list is such a career limiting move.

I think Khan is smarter than this.

Would have been better if Khan worked his ass off and put in more time as a top agent and try to become a high ranking officer like Marcus and reveal his true identity and motive in part 3.

525. Captain_Conrad - May 16, 2013

The movie is a homage to the original Star Trek II. In Star Trek 2009, they had all the little references from each of the original film. This one was basically a giant Star Trek II reference along with some III references as well.

And so what if Cumberbatch is white? The point of Star Trek was to move passed racism and prejudice. By making a big deal out of it, hell, even just by the sheer mention of it, you’re proving that the show has taught you nothing.

526. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@745.

By that token, would you mind if in 20 years, Kirk is recast with a Brown actor?

527. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

Correction @ 475

528. Cathi - May 16, 2013

Saw the movie twice now. And liked it.

Haven’t been spoilered much once I read that Kirk would be demoted to first officer I had decided to stop spoilering.

Had hoped it wouldn’t be Khan, but they made it kinda work. Nice believable backstory, although I saw the movie with some not-Trekkies and they didn’t grasp the reasoning or backstory of Khan, not enough screentime they said, found it rushed.

Had somehow reasoned out Kirks death scene when the first Pic came out at trekmovie with the hands, had thought it might end like that.
I was alright with the blood which seemed obvious once Kirk got in there and Spock screamed Khan. A lazy solution maybe, but they couldn’t let Kirk die and he is no vulcan and there’s no Genesis and they wanted the reversed death scene so what could they do?

Some minor mistakes or things made no sence, like: Why the hell use a helms ensign to replace a chief engineer? Wouldn’t Khan out wit Spock and know that the torpedos had been activated? Scotty smuggling himself into that powerful basis/ warship?

Liked the plot and the story line. Had feared they’d turn it into a man hunt and shoot em up action packed vendetta, but they didn’t. They kinda respected Star Trek values and I appreciate that. Vendetta is bad and war even against the klingons as well -> nice.

I still don’t like the Uhura/Spock thing, but more because it’s so public and it makes them seem so unprofessional. But it didn’t upset me.

The one thing I really didn’t like was the reversed death scene.
You can’t just strip away 20 years of experience, history, relationship ; Change the roles and then quote almost the entire conversation.
That’s just. . . it seemed hollow and pathetic and artificial . . . and it was topped by Spocks ridiculous Khan scream.
It seemed more than a Star Trek parody than anything sensible.

Still, all in all a good movie. (Except for that copied scene) Holding up Star Trek values, having an interisting story, nice plot and a good mixture between humor, action and story. I’m looking forward to the third one-

529. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

so… I’m going to go again this weekend and pretend he just stays John Harrison: The eugenics superhuman leader of Europe and ignore the Khan stuff – I’m sure it will enhance the viewing.

Now to just turn of my emotions ala Spock! : )

530. T'Cal - May 16, 2013

I took my family last night to see it in IMAX 3D and we all loved it, enjoying it even more than the last one. We loved that it didn’t ignore the last film for a new story, that it didn’t have the plot holes that we kindly accepted from the last one, that the twists were done very well, that the scope was bigger, that introducing Khan was done in a very believable way, that the mention of Section 31 opens the door for other stories, that the ending left it open for more Augment stories as well as Klingon tales, etc.

531. BatlethInTheGroin - May 16, 2013

#524: That’s a ridiculous notion. Would you have felt the same way had the cast of Abrams’ films been Wesley Snipes as Kirk, Jet Li as Spock, Nick Nolte as Scotty, Tem Morrison as Sulu, Shakira as Uhura, John Goodman as Chekov, Peter Dunklage as McCoy, Zack Efron as Khan, Oprah Winfrey as Marcus and Selina Gomez as Carol Marcus? Because unless your answer is “yes,” then you’re a hypocrite.

532. Aurore - May 16, 2013

@ 486.

How unfortunate…and yet…predictable…

:)

What you said will remain unchallenged!

533. BiggestTOSfanever - May 16, 2013

@boborci I am just curious to know if you guys or Paramount gave the script to the “evaluators” like Vinny Bruzzese that I read about in the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/06/business/media/solving-equation-of-a-hit-film-script-with-data.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I really liked the movie and I need to see again; I viewed the WOK scene as more of a homage than a rip-off.

I understand the need to use the most iconic villain in star trek and it worked well, but are you going to make the timelines diverge more? It’s funny because the same fans who didn’t like ’09 because the universe was different don’t like ’13 because the universe is similar.

I love the idea of this sandbox you now have to explore and to paraphrase Monty Python I hope it’s time now for something completely different.

534. Treckin - May 16, 2013

@boborci

If you’re reading this, I just wanted to say I LOVED the movie and everything you have done with the franchise. I have recently watched every single episode of Trek on Netflix, and your interpretation is both spot-on and refreshingly original.

Im graduating from UC Berkeley on Saturday, and this fan sneak was an amazing release from finals week.

I’m one crazy smart dude, soon to be looking for a job – are you accepting resumes? (jmdauber @ berkeley.edu :-P)

Stay classy my friends

535. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

I think section 31 gave Khan a new identity and face.

Cosmetic surgery or even IMF masks are common place for top agents, disguises are very common.

536. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@524

Indeed you are a hypocrite. If either Kirk or Spock had been cast with anyone other than a white male, the Trekfan community would have hit the roof.

So don’t start patronizing people about racism and Trek’s messages on diversity when, judging from the posts here, at least 50% of Trek fans including you, don’t give a damn about these issues.

If you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I’m a white guy, and for me, the Khan STID issue is not only a story/canon problem, it’s an ethical/moral problem too.

537. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

Hey if bob is hiring, he hire me :p

538. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

525.

If he’s undercover, attempting to avoid detection, or a genetically engineered superman, then no.

539. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@534

That’s what I’m going with. I figure in the Trek universe, Khan Noonien Singh is as infamous and recognizable as Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin. Which, by the way, is why I’m surprised Kirk/Spock don’t react more to the name revelation. I mean if a white, british-accented guy told you he was Genghis Khan from the distant past, I bet you would be like WTF?

Anyway, if Khan is going to be out in public, while serving a secret organization, he would need to look different or would draw unwanted attention. So I’m going with the whole cosmetic alteration thing.

540. Scotty74 - May 16, 2013

Saw the film at midnight last night and, while I did enjoy it, the #4 comment in this thread by Dirty Harry is a spectacularly accurate review.

In J.J. & Co. I trust, but maybe the next film will actually be better served in the hands of new story tellers.

541. Dion1701 - May 16, 2013

@#66 I think Karen wrote one of the best, most thought out posts I have ever read here. I in no way can come close to writing as eloquent of a post as Karen but I think Orci and the team did a great job. It goes along with the theme of the 2009 movie, fate and destiny. You can create an alternate universe but fate proves to be a stronger force. They were destine to cross path with Kahn! When a movie can have me on the edge of my seat excited, then laughing and then crying, well I think they met my criteria for a good movie. Here is to a new series and a new movie for the 50th anniversary!

542. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@537

Well maybe in another alternate timeline (since Trek has so many)…

George Kirk marries Priya Koothrappali (name is from TBBT, I know, but I don’t know any Indian girls).

Thus James T Kirk is half white, half Indian and has brown skin.

Feasible, but would be rejected by most Trek fans out of hand. Admit it.

543. Dennis Bailey - May 16, 2013

#535: “Indeed you are a hypocrite. If either Kirk or Spock had been cast with anyone other than a white male, the Trekfan community would have hit the roof. ”

Meh,it wouldn’t bother me a bit at this point. I certainly think it would be more interesting if one of them were a woman.

544. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

Mr Orci:

The consensus here is Khan had to be cosmetically altered to avoid detection. Can you verify that this is the case?

545. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

Joss Whedon should direct Trek16.

546. Aurore - May 16, 2013

Anthony,

In the last post you deleted, I had removed the unecessary snarks!…I think…

So unfair…and yet…

:)

547. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@542

I could be wrong, but I can’t see how that would be interesting at all really. What would either Kirk/Spock being a woman bring to the table?

Kirk ends up……Star Trek’s version of nuStarbuck.
Spock ends up…….exactly like T’pol.

548. GKB1701 - May 16, 2013

@bob orci

I just want to say thank you sir. Saw the film in Sacramento at 12:01 last night, and you guys blew me away! I had high hopes and expectations after the huge success of the first film, and I can not say enough that you guys did it! You abso-freakin’-lutly did it!

I can not disagree more with the many people above that are complaining about “do something new.” This was a new and invigorated storyline, using classic elements. It works for both the casual movie go-er and the die hard fan.

I was caught by surprise at the apperance of origional Spock, and found that moment in particular to add the weight that was needed to really deliver the knock out that was the TWOK death scene flip. The moment I realised what was happening, it took the seat out from under me and worked so beauifuly to define THIS Kirk and Spock.

Again, all I can do is thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my Trekkie heart.

(if you have the time, can you point out some of the hints you dropped in the comic series that we might have missed? And maybe something to look for in the film when I see it for a 2nd time?)

549. Dennis Bailey - May 16, 2013

#543: “The consensus here is Khan had to be cosmetically altered to avoid detection. ”

There is no such “consensus here.” None at all.

550. Crone - May 16, 2013

533 congratulations!

551. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

548:

Sorry,

The consensus here (among fans concerned with Khan appearance continuity) is Khan had to be cosmetically altered to avoid detection. Can you verify that this is the case?

552. Namcoking - May 16, 2013

Not sure if this was addressed already, but to all those griping about McCoy needing Kahn’s blood while there were 72 other others nearby must have forgotten that McCoy stated early on in the movie that he had no idea how to defrost the 72 cryos because he wasn’t familiar with the technology.

553. BotanyBay - May 16, 2013

It makes some sense that when Section 31 revived Khan, they may have altered his appearance. If his appearance in the film bothers you, go with that explanation. Maybe we’ll get some kind of comic covering the retrieval of the Botany Bay at some point

554. Plum - May 16, 2013

I haven’t seen the flick, but I knew what they were doing. The clues online stacked up rather quickly.

As someone who grew-up on the old show and calls himself a trekkie I’d like to muse on a few things. No spoilers… but if you haven’t figured it out by now, come on!

Some would say the biggest problem with Star Trek is continuity, a crushing fixation with what happened before. So called canon. But really it’s nostalgia. The desire to catch that lightening in a bottle once again. Many make the point about Trek going forward, but this is exactly what Hollywoodland doesn’t bank on. Nostalgia, that’s why the plot points of the current flick are there. The villian isn’t there because he’s intrical to the story, he’s there because the character has that nostalgic aura. A bankable familiarity. I had said before (on Trekmovie.com and ages ago) it should be obvious who the villain is to be. And thus we got what (some reviewers) described as a third act mired in, well, nostalgia. So instead of doing something new and daring, which the first film did provide, they went with old reliable and in doing so the story bogged down under the weight of continuity, canon, nostalgia. How many trekkies have had the continuity argument and concluded that the story suffered from trying to adhere to it? I reckon all of us.

So the new creators have regurgitated the tropes, the characters, and adventure of the old series with a new, modern, spin for a new generation. Just as the newer shows had done in years past. But they all failed, at first. TNG’s first seasons were terrible, as was DS9s. Only when the creators tried to go into new, original, story lines did they succeed in making classics and innovative tv. When they tried to keep to canon and ‘jazz up’ the shows, and movies, we got drek from Voy and Ent. ST:Nemesis is the perfect example of this. What Trek had been was pushed into the background in favour of the ‘jazz’. Canon is held-up as holding to Trek traditions but it’s always a sign of failing to tell a good story. Makes me wonder if the term ‘fan-wank’ was coined by a trekkie.

When creators do this they miss the point. What is Star Trek? Why is it such a cultural touch stone? Well, look to the original. I’d like to offer an opinion of what Trek is beyond the superficial trappings of nostalgia. When the show was made in 1965 it was still illegal, in many States, to marry someone of another race (the ‘traditional marriage’ debate was even sillier in the 60s). Black men and women only got the right to vote a year before and that only after brutal crackdowns by authorities. But here was Star Trek, showing us a world where people of all backgrounds couldn’t imagine such things. Civil Rights were a assumed. Forget all the ‘utopia’ crap that some people wistfully apply to Trek with importance, it’s the simple idea that the future wasn’t the cruelty and fear of today. And all this happening with a terrific hope for the future thanks to the incredible Apollo program.

Somehow, today’s creators just don’t have any desire to present such a world because nostalgia is easier, bankable. Goddess knows there’s all sorts of ways to present a new Trek story that is relevant to our lives today. Racial equality today is a given (for the most part) but that doesn’t mean Trek can’t be relevant today. Present a future that surprises us with how it reflects our world today and you would be far closer to what made Trek memorable in the first place.

555. Jai - May 16, 2013

Like I’ve said multiple times on Trekmovie — including my first comment on this thread (#362) — I’m a North Indian Sikh myself. I actually wrote a long comment on Trekmovie a couple of months ago explaining why Ricardo Montalban’s Khan Noonien Singh in “Space Seed” was very obviously ethnically North Indian (especially Punjabi, which is what most Sikhs are): http://trekmovie.com/2013/01/08/watch-video-shows-star-trek-into-darkness-post-production-reveals-some-new-glimpses/#4971209.

It’s not just because of Khan’s full name. It’s not even just because Montalban was plastered in brownface makeup to make him look “more Indian”. It’s not even just because of Khan’s clothes, although in a couple of scenes in “Space Seed”, Khan was shown wearing distinctively Indian outfits; I personally own clothes like that. And in Khan’s first scene in TWOK, he was wearing a traditional old-style Sikh turban.

Yet some people desperate to justify the choice of casting Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan Noonien Singh are still — *still* — stubbornly posting comments lecturing others on racial and historical matters involving Sikhs, even though their own claims are excessively simplified in some aspects and very inaccurate in others. It’s become a standard feature on Trekmovie, and it now surprises me so little that I just laugh at the ridiculousness of it all when yet another “expert” starts making these arguments.

556. Tomar Re - May 16, 2013

I just got back from seeing the film and I have a few, initial thoughts. I’ll probably be able to form a better opinion in a day or so after it all sinks in. I enjoyed the first half of the film – up until John Harrison is detained on the Enterprise. I felt the story at that point started to get bogged down in the Khan premise. I agree with many others who have indicated the film would have been better without Khan – why not John Harrison, augment and rogue Section 31 operative, as the protagonist? Why could the story not have revolved around Harrison stumbling upon Admiral Marcus’ plan to utilize classified Section 31 technology to incite a War with the Klingons and Marcus threatening Harrison’s actual family? A subplot to the film then could be how and where Section 31 came up with the new technology, leading into the third film.

The question that is nagging me is how Marcus discovered the Botany Bay in the first place? Did Spock Prime let him in on the secret? Since the Enterprise has not embarked on its five-year journey at this point in the story, how did they pinpoint the area of space where Khan and his Crew lay waiting in suspended animation? Kirk even reiterates at the end of the film that their mission will take them to unexplored reaches of the galaxy. If Marcus has already been there, what’s the point of the five-year mission? It just seemed like thin plot point to me.

557. Coastie - May 16, 2013

Oh, and just so you all know, there’s some type of Sherlock Holmes show out there with an Asian woman playing Watson … and I also see there’s a black Ironsides. coming out. I am pretty sure Halle Berry played Cat Woman a few years back (even if the movie was horrible, whatever, I’m over it). Honestly, if Kirk would have been black in this “new universe” that would have been just fine. I am starting to wish this would have been a pure reboot vs. the whole “altered universe changed timeline” thing that way we wouldn’t have all this ranting about who’s white and who’s latino and what not.

558. Captain_Conrad - May 16, 2013

@535 and the rest of you nitpickers

Whatever happened to, “The possibilities are endless?” This goes for everything in this new movie series. Epic Kudos to 534 for thinking outside the box. If Khan had still been the Khan he was when thawed, he would have eventually been recognized by everyone.

And now specifically to you 535: Uhura: American. Chekov: Russian, original counterpart played by an American with Russian Jewish decent. Sulu: Korean, but wait, and original Sulu was played by a Japanese dude or is that an exception cause they are both Asian? But Russia is in Asia too, however because a Russian dude would be white he wouldn’t be allowed to play Sulu, right? But he’s still Asain, though. Scotty: Scotsman played by an Englishman, but wait, original Scotty was played by a Canadian! Will this madness ever end!?! Kirk: American, but wait… NO! Original Kirk was played by a Canadian! Oh wait, both countries are in North America so that’s okay, right? McCoy: New Zealander, but the original was an American!!!!!! Oh their skin complexion matches so that’s okay, right? Carol Marcus: British… but… no… her original counterpart… AUSTRIAN!?!?! Oh right, blonde hair, blue eyes, so she gets a pass, right? So how exactly is it that I’m the hypocrite? And based off of what did you jump to that conclusion. Your ethical argument is based purely on the skin color change of one character. One character is white and suddenly JJ and crew are out to turn Star Trek into a white people’s club. And no, you’re wrong. No one would care if Kirk or Spock were black, pink, grey, yellow, blue, green or whatever. The actors chosen were not picked for the simple fact that they looked like their original counterparts. They showed the most potential for becoming their characters. Before you reply arguing the fact that I used nationality over “race” there is only one human race and we just happen to come in many shapes, sizes and colors.

559. T'Cal - May 16, 2013

I really liked how they tied in Section 31 as well as all of the other plot points. Nothing was forced and the story and motivations were all, well, logical. Khan’s reasoning was sound and not maniacal, although you knew he was a maniac. There’s little worse than a villain whose motivation is to do bad things because he’s just evil. They have to believe they are doing the right thing for the right reasons. Nero lacked that and Khan didn’t.

560. Jai - May 16, 2013

^^”It’s not even just because of Khan’s clothes, although in a couple of scenes in “Space Seed”, Khan was shown wearing distinctively Indian outfits”

I was referring to this particular scene and this very, very Indian outfit: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdvse7o79o1rhg5lso1_1280.png

561. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

Charlie Jane’s review on io9 rambles, but it’s now an unavoidable part of the geek dialog.

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-dumbness-507058729

562. Jai - May 16, 2013

Some people have posted comments while I was typing my “PS”. Comment #559 refers to my previous comment #554.

Action Stations, re: #535:

“for me, the Khan STID issue is not only a story/canon problem, it’s an ethical/moral problem too.”

Absolutely. It actually involves a bunch of major problems – check out my first long comment on this thread (#362).

Re: #538:

“I figure in the Trek universe, Khan Noonien Singh is as infamous and recognizable as Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin.”

Like I said in #362, that’s yet another problem with the depiction of Khan Noonien Singh in STID. Khan is definitely supposed to be recognisable as a major historical figure, but not “infamous” – at least, not in the same way as Hitler or Stalin. Kirk, Scotty and McCoy’s discussion about Starfleet’s historical records of Khan in “Space Seed” confirmed Khan is much more like Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great. Kirk and Scotty actually admire him, for God’s sake – something they’d never do if Khan really was like Hitler or Stalin.

Yet in STID, Khan’s backstory has been butchered. All of a sudden, Khan *is* like Hitler or Stalin; according to the younger Spock in the movie, Khan is a “war criminal” guilty of the “mass genocide” of eveyone he regarded as “inferior” – which totally contradicts Kirk & co’s discussion in “Space Seed” and the whole premise of that episode’s storyline. This plot hole in STID is even more glaring because JJ Abrams, Bob Orci etc have insisted that nothing is supposed to have changed prior to Nero’s incursion in ST09 – which would include Khan’s backstory.

I’d been giving JJ, Bob Orci & co the benefit of the doubt until I actually saw STID. Alarm bells had originally started going off when JJ gave an interview to MTV a while back where he said “[Khan and Kirk] exist — and while their history may not be exactly as people are familiar with, I would argue that a person’s character is what it is.” To quote the Wiki page on Khan: “Abrams said of the notion that his Khan could be just as evil, even if Kirk never stranded him on Ceti Alpha V”.

When I read about that on Trekmovie, I thought “No JJ, you’ve completely missed the point. Khan wasn’t “just as evil” at all; that was the whole premise of Space Seed, and there was even an entire scene where the Enterprise’s senior officers discussed this very issue.”

So JJ totally missed the point of Space Seed and he completely misinterpreted Khan’s character in that episode. Hence a butchered Khan backstory in STID and a villain who is “Khan In Name Only”.

563. Timncc1701 - May 16, 2013

Klingons now look like Milli Vanilli. Girl you know it’s true.

564. oly - May 16, 2013

Cumberbatch was glorious in the film. I could have watched him for hours. while I;d like to see him return for the next film I’d far rather he joined Star Wars with JJ as hopefully then he’ll get a decent script. One that a great actor deserves.

565. Action Stations - May 16, 2013

@557

Hilarious. Nothing in that post is a real challenge to the issue. You list,

A ASIAN Japanese character played by an ASIAN Korean actor.
A WHITE Scotsman character played by an WHITE English actor.
A WHITE American character played by a WHITE Canadian actor.
A WHITE American character played by a WHITE New Zealander actor.

A BROWN Indian character played by a WHITE British actor.

Now if you cant see the difference (or intentionally choose not to), then nothing I or anyone says will ever break through that shell of ignorance.

There IS a difference, even if YOU choose to ignore it. What’s funny is that a single line of dialogue would have settled the issue. But what’s even funnier, is some people trying to pass themselves off as progressive, by acting completely to the contrary.

566. Unbel1ever - May 16, 2013

From the io9 Review:

“These aren’t the sort of plot holes that you notice in the parking lot after you walk out of the movie theater, but rather the sort that jump out at you while you’re actually watching the movie.”

That’s the main problem I have with the movie. It’s not Trek canon, it’s not Khan. It’s the gaping plot holes.

567. garth of izar - May 16, 2013

#486. Jefferies Tuber – THANK YOU!!! You are 100% correct

568. Boris - May 16, 2013

To Boborci:

Enjoyed it very much with the BIG exception of Kirk’s death. Really?! It’s treading old grounds (basically copying Wrath of Khan), moreover, nobody would believe Kirk dies already in the 2nd movie and (i’m not finished yet) Spock’s friendship with Kirk just doesn’t feel as if it’s there yet, you know, too soon for Spock to get so upset. Heck, not even his mother’s death shook him that much and here we are lead to believe that this guy he knows for one movie is soooooo close to him. Weak sauce! ;)

Oops, one more thing (sorry), pretty much hated the design of that Klingon dude. Please reconsider the look. And don’t relegate Klingons to a cameo. PLEASE make the next movie about the war between the Federation and Klingons. PRETTY PLEASE!!! Thank you. ;)

569. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

559. Jai, the details of Punjabi ethnology are interesting, but there’s a big difference between Khan in the 72 hours after he’s thawed out in “The Space Seed” and Khan a year or more after he’s thawed, trained, equipped and prepared for clandestine service by Section 31. Would you at least agree that altering Khan’s physical appearance is (a) strategic for working undercover as John Harrison, (b) technologically feasible given the franchise depictions of humans posing as Romulans and Klingons, and (c) that casting a brown person of any variety to play a terrorist who kills 100,000+ people in STID is insensitive to the social politics of 2013?

570. Sprout - May 16, 2013

I see all the complaints about Khan being a Brit, but what about Anton Yelchin not having a Davy Jones’ haircut or Zoe Saldana’s boobs not being as big as Nichelle Nichols’. Those were canon! Jeesh.

Anyway, loved the movie. Only drawback of the reactor death scene was the lack of suspense for that act and subsequent revival of Kirk, but the way it was used to bring Kirk and Spock closer together was worth it. Besides, I’m all-in with the alternate timelines and how they generally play out the same. Seems to me some still don’t get that these are pre-TOS/TOS era movies, not a 50-year-old crew warping around.

Can’t wait to see it again (and again) after Wednesday’s fan sneak in IMAX 3-D, although I wouldn’t mind another 30 minutes next time.

571. Moputo Jones - May 16, 2013

I wonder if STID won’t do well overseas specifically because it is a criticism of the US government’s hamhanded tactics over the past 12 years in the war on terror?

572. Sean - May 16, 2013

Those of you who keep saying this was good movie need to read this review, http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/05/review-star-trek-into-darkness/. Come on now.

Bob Orci,

If this film was your honest best attempt then you are truly a hack. All you did was plagiarize from Star Trek TV shows, movies, and sprinkled a little current events. Worse, you sprinkled in some sort of 9/11 conspiracy garbage. You had people in torpedos? What the hell?

Do me a favor Bob, send your finished script to a college screenwriting class for review. You and JJ treated Star Trek as if was a joke. You said as much, when the doors opened and Scotty bitched about the ship being underwater.

Lastly, Kahn’s midichlorians suck as bad as little Skywalker’s. I hope JJ, Lucas, and Disney do not let you touch Star Trek three or Star Wars. I mean, you had four years and the best that you come up with is people in torpedos, with magic blood, and terrorism.

A mindless script for a mindless audience. Which describes how you feel about your audience as well. In the future, I will not spend money on anything your name is attached to.

Lastly, I blame you and the other writers and JJ for hiring you. Why, because everything else was fine. The acting, the directing, even the makeup person got their jobs right. You had 4 years unlike them and sucked.

Thank you

573. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

Bob:

If the Vengeance is a war machine, designed to run on a minimal crew, then why does it need a saucer the size of the D’s, which was big enough to hold everyone’s families?

Two movies, three planets with three different cultures, and none of them have planetary defenses? Bob, why doesn’t Earth have even automated (AI) planetary defenses after Nero. Why didn’t Vulcan? Why doesn’t Qu’onos? I can’t wrap my head around this.

574. JustSayin' - May 16, 2013

571…

Not liking a film is one thing. Being rude and trash talking another individual(s) is another, and it only shows your immaturity and lack of intelligence for providing a dignified argument.

You should apologize to Bob, JJ and the writers.

Bob, thanks for your hard work and a great movie.

575. Never Say Canon Again - May 16, 2013

I thought it was virtually perfect. No significant nitpicks from me.

576. Sean - May 16, 2013

@ 573,

My opinion is that Bob is hack. Deal with it. He had to go through honest criticism when he was writing a college.

If had some of that with his drafts then maybe this wouldn’t be a mindless summer movie.

Either way, he lost my business. He should apologize to us. .

577. Jefferies Tuber - May 16, 2013

571. Sean – you may have forgotten, but the idea that Khan’s blood has healing/self-healing properties has a legitimate canon source in The Space Seed. Rewatch it before you level the lowest of low blows in geek speak (the M word).

578. Winston - May 16, 2013

571 may have voiced his opinions harshly… but I don’t disagree.

579. Never Say Canon Again - May 16, 2013

And I suppose we can’t stop the haters from posting the same thing 75 times, but I think the poll numbers speak for themselves. We are the overwhelming majority no matter how loud you shout.

580. T'Leba - May 16, 2013

My husband, daughter, and I saw the movie last night on my daughter’s 20th birthday – one she will definitely remember what a great birthday it was.

We all thought the movie was great! (My daughter thought it was awesome!)

My husband and I are long-time TOS fans having initially watched it as kids in the 70′s. (As a result, my daughter has been watching TOS her whole life.) As a kid, I fell in love with the characters (especially Spock) and the philosophy.

I have never had a favorite Star Trek movie – I like 2, 3, 4, 6, and ST09. (First Contact is the only other Star Trek movie I like.) All of them have great moments while still having flaws, but each extends my understanding of Star Trek in great ways for me.

STID could possibly be my favorite. Yes, it has plenty of flaws, and I was disappointed to have Khan back.

That said, the writers have a tough challenge of getting us to the point of the TOS series where Kirk and Spock are friends. Spock doesn’t make friends easily and is ashamed of his friendship with Kirk in “The Naked Time.” Then, in “Amok Time,” Kirk says he has known Spock for years, and they are clearly great friends. Even McCoy, Spock admits, is a friend.

How does one come up with a believable plot to compress the long time it must have taken for Kirk to break through Spock’s armor against friendships?

Spock Prime! And, yes, a pivotal moment from history. (Nice to see Leonard Nimoy again.)

Makes sense to me, so it makes it easier to overlook my disappointment in using Khan. After all, he brings with him this whole backstory that the writers barely had to worry about, so they could spend more time on other character aspects.

I can see why I would possibly choose something akin to Khan, although, of course, I’m just guessing as to why the writers chose to use Khan over other ideas.

For me right now, Khan is just a device used to further both Spock’s character and Kirk’s – to get them to the 5-year mission point. Harrison seems very unreal as Khan to me. (That’s no slight to Cumberbatch. He was brilliant.)

First and foremost for me, STID is about the characters and the developing friendship of Spock and Kirk, which we never got to see from the beginning in TOS. This is the main reason why I love this movie.

However, there were so many other great character moments within the emotional roller coaster ride of the movie, including great humor and deep sadness. I loved the scenes with Pike & Kirk. Pike’s death scene brought a few tears to my eyes.

Spock doing a mind meld with Pike was a bit of a shocker, although I did like how the explanation of that was woven into the great scene with Spock, Kirk, and Uhura. Well, done with the humor among the 3 of them before Spock’s very poignant lines.

While Pike’s death scene brought tears to my eyes, surprisingly I felt little when Kirk was dying. This scene just didn’t have the emotional impact for me that was intended. I’ve been trying to analyze why. Is it the Khan problem? Is it the reimagined scenery and situations? Is it that I’m not as invested in these characters yet? Or something else, perhaps?

I did love Bruce Greenwood’s Pike, who was so superior in quality to the original, whom I never liked. Greenwood’s Pike was a father figure, which I very much loved, to Kirk. Pike’s death was sad… even sadder when I factor in what he meant to Kirk.

As for Khan, I figured out Harrison from the trailer where he mentioned that 72 were already onboard the ship, so it’s not like this was a surprise. While it didn’t pull me out of the movie as much as it would have if I hadn’t known it was coming, it did, I believe, play a role. Also, the reimagined scenery, situation, etc. all played a role to pull me out.

My husband feels the same way; however, my daughter doesn’t, which is interesting. This may be more of a problem for some of us trekkers who grew up with the show in the 60s and 70s.

As for my investment in the characters, I shed a few tears in ST09 with the destruction of Vulcan, death of Amanda, and Spock’s reaction on the transporter pad after losing his mother. Therefore, I don’t think it is my lack of investment. I do care about these characters.

I believe it comes down to too much of a similarity to TWOK. I would have preferred that the writers create a contemporary of Khan. This still would have worked with Spock Prime since he had researched these people. He could have known of John Harrison from that. Spock Prime could have mentioned Khan and the incident. Also, I would have preferred a totally different cause of Kirk’s death.

While there are other problems with the movie, there are plenty of other great moments to more than make up for the shortfalls.

I loved the Kirk/Spock interactions with the exception noted above. There was humor, misunderstanding, and poignancy at the right moments. Both Pine and Quinto did fabulous jobs.

I wasn’t as thrilled with Quinto’s performance in ST09 as I was with this movie. His delivery of lines in ST09 sounded slightly off to me, although I still liked his performance a lot. In STID, he played it exceptionally well.

Thanks, Bob Orci, for making Spock seem more real in some ways, like commanding abilities and physical abilities (other than mind melds and neck pinches). While Spock is my favorite TOS character, he was poorly written at times as a commander. In “Galileo Seven,” McCoy said it was Spock’s first command. Starfleet would be inept to make a commander the first officer if he had never commanded. Quinto’s Spock seems like he will take the bull by the horns, if necessary, like Spock sending in a different report than Kirk. Great scene!

As for physical abilities, Nimoy’s TOS Spock didn’t get the physical scenes that Shatner got. This always bothered me. I like seeing Spock in much more physically demanding situations. Loved that!

McCoy was great, and I loved the Kirk/Spock/McCoy moments. Urban did a fabulous job.

I absolutely loved Uhura! Saldana did a fantastic job. Thanks, Bob Orci, for righting the wrongs done to her in TOS where she was little more than an operator. Back then, she didn’t even get to take the conn when she was CO on the bridge. With the 60s prejudices, she got slighted in favor of an ensign. That makes me cringe!

I love in this reboot that she has a name, and Spock did say it once more in this movie. Fantastic, except the pronunciation was different (minor problem). It was great to hear her speak Klingon and see her in the middle of the action. Loved it!

I also loved her interactions with Spock and Kirk. (So glad there isn’t some love triangle there.) I’m hoping to see more of the Spock/Uhura relationship in the future. With everything else considered, it was a minor disappointment that we didn’t get to see more of it in STID.

Scotty was a joy to watch in this movie. This was such a wonderful surprise. I hated him in ST09, as he was too much of a clown. Frankly, I wanted to open the shuttle bay while he was in there and have him sucked into space. ;-) OK, I’m not that cruel, but I was dreading his role in this movie. Pegg did a fantastic job.

I did love the shuttle bay scene, along with all his other scenes. The Kirk/Scotty moments were really great. I’m so glad we got to see the budding of their friendship, and I loved that Scotty called Kirk “Jim.” That reminded me of the scene in “Mirror, Mirror,” the only time we heard Scotty use Kirk’s first name in TOS. Great moment in STID!

In TOS, Sulu was just a minor character who didn’t mean much to me. As for Chekov, I never liked him, still don’t. I’m not invested in either Sulu or Chekov in this reboot, which carries over from TOS. That suits me just fine. (No slight intended to the actors.)

One other related comment: sending Chekov to be head of engineering? That’s akin to giving him the conn when a much more senior officer is on the bridge. Makes me cringe! However, I did love the red shirt part with Chekov.

Overall, though, this movie was great and felt like classic Trek. We had great character interactions among Kirk, Spock, and McCoy and an allegorical story with a moral. I’m sure Gene Roddenberry would be proud. Thanks, Bob Orci!

We’ll be going to see STID again this weekend with my in-laws. I’m sure this movie is going to grow on me. It’s already in the “great” category, but it could possibly move to a never-obtained status in my mind – “best.” So many things to love.

As for the next movie, I hope we carry through with the Klingons as adversaries. Please, no more single villains wanting revenge. Also, I would like to see an advancement in the Spock/Uhura relationship.

581. Sean - May 16, 2013

@576,

I guess I missed the part where Kahn was wolverine..

582. Michael Hall - May 16, 2013

Not sure I have much of value to add to all of the comments here, both pro and con, many of which make valuable points. I will add my own kudos to those praising post #66, which thoughtfully explained why the much-maligned repurposing of THE WRATH OF KHAN material wound up working much better than I ever would have expected.

Let me say it at the outset: for my money, STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS is a vastly superior film to its predecessor, if for no other reason than actually being about something besides its own desire to reinject some life and fun into a moribund franchise. For all of my specific issues with the 2009 film that was by far my biggest complaint, and for those of us who grew up with Gene Roddenberry’s approach to storytelling that went out of its way to take on important issues of the day (however clumsily or ham-handedly), its inclusion here is no small thing. Likewise, the characterization and humor are far better-written, and feel much more organic to the story. The film is often breathtaking spectacle, including some of the most grittily realistic (yet still optimistic) depictions of “future earth” ever put on screen (if nothing else, I’ll look forward to seeing that awesome nighttime shot of the San Francisco Port Authority again sometime).

And yet–and the end of the day I came away from INTO DARKNESS more disappointed than exalted, more exhausted than entertained. Some of the reasons for that are described by Andrew O’Heihr in his fine review in Salon; for others it may boil down more to a sense of style than anything quantifialble. The problem for me, at base, is that those moments exploring our post-09/11 moral dilemmas and some genuinely affecting drama with the Enterprise crew still feel shoehorned into a typical political revenge-thriller story, told mostly through one loud, elaborate action setpiece after another. When thoughtfulness and character growth must constantly make way for firefights, space jumps, and decaying orbits, rather than the other way around–well, for me that’s a clear sign that the priorities of the filmmakers, however talented, are just not my own. Maybe that’s what’s required to make this franchise going on 50 a viable property in this day and age. Maybe it’s more a matter of style, and my tastes are simply reflecting my own age. But it’s my best guess as to why, in spite of all of the things I genuinely did like and appreciate about INTO DARKNESS, I can’t think of it as great or even really very good Star Trek, or recommend it to those like myself who have been fans almost from the beginning. Maybe next time.

(Oh, and Mr. Orci? With all respect, once again you or one of your fellow writers has made a category error. The famous “Space, the final frontier. . .” opening is not an “oath”–nothing in it suggests anything being promised or agreed to, much less sworn upon–any more than the Federation is a “peace-keeping armada.” It is, more properly, a mission statement.)

583. Dion1701 - May 16, 2013

I pose this to all the self proclaimed critics. What Star trek Films were successful and what were their common themes? The Wrath of Kahn, The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country, First Contact. The odd one in the bunch is the Voyage Home it was a great story with a wonderful sense of humor. The other 3 were action packed! It is what you have to have to make a movie franchise such as Star Trek win at the box office. That is why in all time domestic box office rankings TWOK is #713, TVH is #434, TUDC is #773 and first contact is #569. Now contrast that to Abrams 2009 which is ranked at number #62 in the top 100! I also predict Into Darkness will also break into the top 100. I grew up with TOS, then TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Each had their highs and lows. I can find fault in each of them but why? I watched them and they entertained me. So to all you armchair critic and directors I borrow the words of Christopher Pike “I challenge you to do better”! Make a Star Trek Movie! Write it, produce it, direct it! Fans do it all the time and then when fan boys and novice critics like yourselves tear it apart let me know what you think then. Some of you will never be happy.

584. Sean - May 16, 2013

@578,

The people that did this were also in the majority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

And we will see if JJ is right. If Star Trek Fans will keep watching no matter what. But Star Trek Nemesis on Abrams budget is still Nemesis. Instead data this time, we fakely kill Kirk and just like B4 most of us saw the wolverine midichlorians coming too.

585. Kevin In Choconut Center - May 16, 2013

To all involved with the making of S.T.I.D, I thank you. The 2009 film made Star Trek relevant again but this movie made it FUN. I had a feeling about Harrison when I heard there were 72 torpedoes, thinking that just has to mean what I think it means. And for me at least, Nimoy’s appearance as Spock Prime cranked the excitement factor even higher than it had been; when he said Khan had been defeated “at great cost” his facial expression was amazing.

BTW, the theater I was at seats 94 people, about 80 or so seats were filled which is great for 11 A.M. on a Thursday.

586. Xeos - May 16, 2013

@575. Sean – speak for yourself. I and many, many others enjoy this film and it’s opening weekend is on course for a spectacular box-office return. Bob and Alex and JJ created an amazing film that has heart, action, humor, and most of all – is watchable by non-hardcore Trek fans.

Your business and your kind won’t be missed, in fact, the rest of us won’t even notice you’ve left.

587. Daniel - May 16, 2013

oh my god, what happens here ? Bob Orci bashing ? phasers on kill! so Mr. Orci, look at the polls and maybe over to rotten tomatoes…..everythings fine, you`ve done a good job….by the way…..people you won´t believe me…i LOVE all Trek Movies…..all of them…..really….puh, i am so happy, that this is out….cheers from Germany (Saw STID 4 times, but please don´t tell the haters..;-)

588. Phil - May 16, 2013

@575…have not seen the movie yet, regardless of if I like it or not, he owes no one an apology. It’s this hyper-elite mentality that fans such as yourself ooze that paints the fan community with a bad reputation. If anyone should be apologizing it’s you, for being such an @$$ to begin with….

589. Dennis Bailey - May 16, 2013

Since the vast majority of Star Trek fans like the Abrams films we can be pretty sure that they’ll “keep watching.” :-)

590. Jai - May 16, 2013

Jefferies Tuber, re: #568:

“Would you at least agree that altering Khan’s physical appearance is (a) strategic for working undercover as John Harrison, (b) technologically feasible given the franchise depictions of humans posing as Romulans and Klingons,”

Yes, but the problem (one of many) is that — like I said in my original comment #362 — absolutely none of that was stated, indicated or even implied in STID. If viewers actually have to come up with this non-existent scenario in their own minds to make sense of the movie, that’s yet another major problem with the story.

And it’s not just Khan’s appearance which is problematic — his fundamental character and most of his backstory also bear almost no resemblance to the original Khan. Unfortunately, this isn’t surprising either; Bob Orci’s own comments upthread confirm “John Harrison” didn’t need to be Khan at all. Khan was gratuitously shoehorned as Harrison’s “real identity” despite the huge differences between their personalities and ethics.

“(c) that casting a brown person of any variety to play a terrorist who kills 100,000+ people in STID is insensitive to the social politics of 2013?”

Yes. Which is why the easiest, most simple and most logical solution would have been for John Harrison to be another cryogenically-frozen Augment from the Botany Bay — perhaps one of Khan’s lieutenants, or if the writers wanted to stick to the “war criminal responsible for mass genocide” backstory, one of Khan’s more malevolent counterparts (a rival who had ruled a different part of Earth?) who had somehow ended up on the Botany Bay.

Problem instantly solved. It wouldn’t have been necessary to change anything else about “John Harrison” at all, apart from his real name – especially as he never actually needed to be Khan in the first place, as Bob Orci has confirmed.

591. Ceti Alpha 5 - May 16, 2013

Wow, vocal minority is especially whinny today.

@571 Sean
To summarize you tantrum: You don’t like movie and anybody who does is stupid, so you posted link to some dude who also doesn’t like it.

Dude, get over yourself.

592. Perry - May 16, 2013

I saw STID at midnight last night. It was playing simultaneously on all seven screens at this particular theater, and the room was maybe half full where I was. Overall I thought it was very good, but not great. I recognize how hard it must be for JJ and crew to make movies that will appeal to the average moviegoers, who are NOT Trekkies, and the fans of Trek as well. They’ve got to provide action and humor and a good story, and still maintain some continuity to the previous shows and movies and give lots of nods to those old shows for us old fans…

There were, as expected, and as discussed already here, plenty of plot holes. I don’t like plot holes, but they happen in all movies, and it seems like especially in Trek movies, or maybe I’m just a lot more critical of Trek. Regardless, I note them and try not to let them bother me too much. I realize that the writers have a plot to move along and sometimes they sacrifice plot integrity for the sake of entertainment.

I still think that TWOK is my favorite Trek movie. Mostly, I think, because it was so well crafted in terms of writing, with the themes and character arcs. Yes, it was heavy-handed at times (thank you, Mr. Shatner), but it was just really well put together, beginning to end. STID moved so quickly, with such a frenetic pace, it was much harder to discern that kind of craftsmanship in the film. It was probably there, just much harder to see.

Here are a few more of my thoughts:

- I’m in the minority, I guess, but I was fine with Harrison being Khan. I figured it would be the case, what with all of the rumors — and despite all of the denials — and as the movie progressed I saw it coming a mile away. That said, then Harrison gave his real name, I was smiling.

- Likewise, I was perfectly fine with the warp core and Kirk’s death and the near line-for-line remake (albeit with the role reversal) of the death scene. Certainly seemed like an homage to me rather than lazy writing. And if you believe in the notion of multiverses, this sort of thing — where very similar events will take place in multiple universes — is bound to happen.

- I like Giacchino’s score well enough, I suppose, but it’s just so subtle most of the time that it’s not very catchy. I much prefer James Horner.

- Pike’s death! Wow, VERY well acted.

- I’ve seen some here complain that Spock seemed to “bloodthirsty”, but if you go back and watch TOS, he is pretty much that way most of the time. Yes, he was much less emotional, but he was plenty quick to decide, “hey, we’ve got to kill that guy”. Go watch “Where No Man Has Gone Before” again if you don’t believe me…

- The scene with Spock Prime did seem a bit superfluous, but it’s always nice to see Nimoy on screen. I was waiting for him to make some sort of reference to his own death. I thought Spock Prime might have said, “Khan killed me,” and then when Young Spock looks at him disbelieving or confused, he could explain, “I got better.”

- Alice Eve in her undies was also completely gratuitous and unnecessary. And THANK YOU JJ for including it! I could watch Alice Eve in her undies all day long…

- Speaking of fantastic scenery *ahem*… I loved seeing the streets of San Francisco and London. It’s amazing what they can do with CGI nowadays that just couldn’t be done in years past, but those cities just looked so REAL. I thought, well ok, this is what San Francisco will look like in a couple hundred years. Makes perfect sense. Certainly the best depiction of earth we’ve ever had in Trek, by far.

- I also really liked the new interiors we saw of the Enterprise. The tall atrium with the decks around the edge. Is that from the neck between the saucer and engineering hull? Very cool. And the new warp core! SO MUCH better than the old column of lights we’ve had since Next Generation. Reminded me of the Stanford Linear Accelerator (SLAC) or the Large Hadron Collider over in Europe. I wonder if those were influences on the design. You really got the feeling of a huge amount of power there. I know we still got some bits from the Budweiser brewery, but there were far fewer of them, and that was a good thing.

- Is it me or did the space around Earth and Kronos (and Jupiter, too), seem awfully empty? Shouldn’t near orbit around the Earth be packed with ships and stations and whatnot? Where were they? And Kronos and Jupiter also should have been full of ships, stations, and people (or Klingons). Having nobody else around seemed a bit lazy to me. I know space is vast and all, but near orbits around key worlds ought to have been full.

- Speaking of wanting more people, I sure wish we had gotten more of the Klingons! Maybe in the next film???

- Also more Karl Urban as McCoy. I think he’s got that character down perfectly. As good as Deforest Kelley, who was tremendous in that role.

- I’m very glad we got to see more of Scotty. As others have said, Simon Pegg really did a great job this time, and I’m glad he was more than just comic relief. We got to see Scotty’s moral center, something we’d usually get from McCoy, and while I wanted more McCoy, I’ll take the extra Scotty instead.

- So what all was different with the fixed-up Enterprise at the end? It was on screen so briefly, I couldn’t tell. Looked like maybe the back of the saucer was changed, but I’m not sure. Anyone know of any images online for comparison purposes?

- Now that the five-year mission will finally start, I’d love to see the stories of the mission told on TV. There have lots of suggestions for an animated series, and I think that would be a splendid idea. Let’s have Trek back on TV for a few years and then wrap up the mission with the third film.

All in all, I’m glad I went to see it last night. It’s even worth operating this morning on only a couple of hours of sleep!

593. Unbel1ever - May 16, 2013

I finally get why the Gorn in the video game are from a different galaxy in this universe. With trans-warp beaming and 2 minute travel times between quadrants, the Milky Way is all mapped out! Interesting take on that. We actually haven’t seen any of the other races origins or star charts (at least that I know of). So this Star Trek will feature adventures outside our galaxy. I think, I can live with that. Which galaxy are the Borg from?

594. Josh B - May 16, 2013

Saw a fan sneak last night at 9:00pm and now I’m back again!!! Love it!!

595. Captain of the USS Lucky Charms - May 16, 2013

Just saw the movie. It was perfect, other then when McCoy discovered the living tribble, it should have been popping put babbies left and right. (That’s my loving girlfriend’s idea actually). But it was absolutely perfect. Thank you JJ, Roberto and Robert. Well done. Epic!

596. mcflycat - May 16, 2013

oh oh oh !

what about this!…

John Harrison IS STILL John Harrison and we’ll see the REAL Khan in the third movie. It was all a brilliant rouse from another eugenics leader!

Oh that is good Mr. Orci… very clever… very clever

597. Anthony Pascale - May 16, 2013

Guys a reminder if you want to write a lengthy ‘review’ you can do it here but there is also a special page just for fan reviews that is tabbed at the top of the site

http://trekmovie.com/into-darkness-fan-reviews/

This open thread will get shut down when it hits 1000 or rolls off the front page

598. David Oakes - May 16, 2013

Anthony – any chance you can collate all of Bob Orci’s replies in this thread to save endless scrolling to see his posts ?

Thanks ! :)

599. JTK2099 - May 16, 2013

Why did Khan go to Kronos after the attack on Starfleet HQ? He was trying to kill Marcus and get the other augments back right? So what was his reason fro going to Kronos? Was it to lure the Vengeance there? None of the other so-called plot holes bothered me but this.

600. rm10019 - May 16, 2013

595 – the only way i can really like this movie is to believe that one of the other tubes has a young Ricardo Montalban circa 1967 in it, and we should have seen that after the credits ended.

Bob, please tell me ILM worked that scene up for the Bluray extended edition!

601. Scott Umsteadt - May 16, 2013

BOB ORCI:
I just saw the film. First let’s address the criticism. Mindless ripoff? Hack writing? I suppose those people prefer Insurrection and Nemesis. Those weren’t rehashed old ideas, huh? Data’s dead but he has a mentally retarded brother. Yeah that was a great idea.And what about The first Star trek Film? V’ger wasn’t a rehash of Nomad? And wasn’t the final frontier a ripoff of The Way to Eden?

Now on to Into Darkness. Yes it wasn’t perfect but I still think it captures the essence of the Original series better than any film so far. If you rewatch the early first season episodes, you get the sense that the crew wasn’t quite gelled yet. This team has built on that and expanded it. To me this film was really about the bonds of the Kirk/Spock relationship being forged. And I think they nailed that right on the head.

As far as the previous critique about no security on earth, why does Spock chase Harrison instead of calling them, ext. I once caught a thief trying to break into my car. I chased him off. Calling the cops was the last thing on my mind. I think Spock felt the same. (e is Half-human, ya know)

I did feel however that some of the importance, i.e. how dangerous Harrison really was was never properly explained. I hope Bob Orci reads this. Because the whole creative team hammered away about how Non-trekkers could watch this film without prior knowledge. Yet I don’t believe the non-trekkers know why this guy is so dangerous. Cumberbach did an outstanding job. But, a little more background on the guy would have really upped the ante. Nice to see Nimoy but totally unneeded. Better if Kirk and Spock found the information together. Refer also to Harrison admission. More dramatic if Kirk would have confronted him already knowing his true identity. Would have given Kirk some credibility after all he is a “…genius level repeat offender” himself.

Marcus’ motives were a little weak. Honestly, superior mind or not, What can a three hundred year old tyrant know about designing modern weapons? I sure if you brought DaVinci here from the past, it would take him at least 10-15 year to reeducate himself. As far as tactics go, Do, you really think Alexander the Great could have just “popped” into the Battle of the Bulge” and done better? He’d be totally out of his Element. Surely Marcus could have read something on ancient military tactics instead of unfreezing another Pot Po or Napolean?

Again the complaint about having enough time to think things through is valid. Marcus could have other reason’s for using harrison if nothing more than an un-documented black-bag man to do his most dirty work.

Overall, though it was a really good film. It built on all of what makes Star Trek great. And I can’t wait to see it again.

602. Jai - May 16, 2013

Mcflycat, re: #595:

“John Harrison IS STILL John Harrison and we’ll see the REAL Khan in the third movie. It was all a brilliant rouse from another eugenics leader!”

Exactly the same thing occurred to me. Like I said in #362, that would the only plausible explanation in the context of this story. If Bob Orci & co had secretly planned this all along, or they now decide to make this part of Star Trek 3, I can live with it.

In fact I’ll applaud wildly at Bob Orci’s Machiavellian genius if this turns out to have secretly been planned as part of the multi-movie story arc — especially as there is already information pointing towards Cumberbatch resurfacing in Star Trek 3 if “John Harrison” survives STID (which he does, of course): http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05/03/there-are-plans-star-trek-3-and-they-involve-klingons-but-what-about-abrams/

Time will tell.

603. Unbel1ever - May 16, 2013

598. JTK2099 – May 16, 2013

“Why did Khan go to Kronos after the attack on Starfleet HQ?”

Probably to hide away for a bit.

604. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

598 – He thought the other augments were dead, which explains why he didn’t hang around. Why he went to Kronos…who knows. Nominally I got the idea it was because he figured the Federation wouldn’t dare go there to catch him

605. Plum - May 16, 2013

Of course well watch it Dennis! lol!!! Where is Samuel T. Cogley when ya needs ‘em? ;p

I was interested in what Jai has been saying, and I think he’s right in many ways. And, reminds me of ST:TWoK.

In ‘Space Seed’, we are presented with genetically improved people. Supermen, as it were. And being Trek the idea what other races other than whites might be superior, and in fact go around insulting everyone else as their inferior, demonstrates how the original creators loved to turn cliche’s on their heads. Funny, though, that when ST:TWoK came around all of Khan’s people are white, blonde, and blue eyed. Khan himself is never described as Indian. His full name isn’t even said. Seems to me, the cliche’ of a superior white race reasserted itself even then.

I blame Hollywoodland.

606. Brevard - May 16, 2013

JJ: Wow, this is certainly some writing, guys. Whew, just don’t know what to say…

Writers: Glad you like it JJ. We worked really hard to be original.

JJ: Well, I do have a few problems with the plot holes.

Writers: Plot holes?

JJ: Well, yeah, you have to admit, there are some problems with the story.

Writers: Damn. You noticed that? Shoot. We didn’t think anyone would notice because the story is sooo original.

JJ: I’ll tell you what, I will shoot this sucker at a breakneck speed and edit the hell out of it. It’ll whiz by the audience so fast that no one will notice the plot.

Writers: Whew. You save us again, JJ.

JJ: Now, about this Kahn thing. Does it really need to be Kahn?

Writers: No, it doesn’t need to be Kahn. But the fans will love it! Really.

JJ: Well, okay, but all I’ve got is Benedict Cumberbatch. He’s very white. Don’t you think fans will notice?

Writers: Here’s where the genius of lens flare comes in, JJ. Every time he comes on screen, just shoot some flare across the camera. Nobody will notice how white he is…

JJ: Great. Love me some flare. By the way, freaking love the Deathstar…I mean, USS Vengeance… in this one. So cool.

Writers: We thought you’d like that. Tide you over until you get to do the movie you’ve really wanted to do your whole life.

JJ: I’m not so sure about this reactor death scene. Haven’t we seen that before?

Writers: Oh come on, JJ. This is completely different! Kirk dies this time. Come on. We’re trying to be original. Plus, we save a lot of writing time because we get to include huge chunks of dialogue from The Wrath of Kahn. Should we give NIck Meyer a writing credit?

JJ: I’m a little worried about Bones in the script. He doesn’t do much. Isn’t Star Trek about the triad of Kirk, Spock and Bones? Or did I get that wrong?

Writers: Well, yeah, but…well…I mean…Zoe Saldana is soooo hot and she looks so good in that little skirt. Come on, we have to use her more. Plus, this is a rebooted universe. Anything can happen. And in this universe, Uhura rules! Plus, the fans will love it. Trust me. Spock macking on Uhura is always good.

JJ: Okay. Cool. I trust you guys. You’re the Supreme Court, right? You wouldn’t steer me wrong, would you?

Writers: Of course not, JJ. Besides, we are Star Trek savants. We know the fans better than they know themselves. We know what they want. Trust us. We’re geniuses. Besides, this has been four years of our lives. Good writing doesn’t just happen…it’s stolen…

607. Crazy Ben Finney - May 16, 2013

I love Trek in all it’s incarnations, read the books, play the games, etc. Got to see the advance show last night at the Henry Ford Museum Imax 3D and I absolutely loved this movie. It definitely has the huge summer blockbuster feel to it and it’s a total action packed popcorn blitz, no slow parts. Nice nods to canon, a couple of nice surprises along the way, and to be honest as much as I’ve been following the updates on this website for any kind of information about this movie for the last 4 years, the plot didn’t play out the way I had it figured, and that was absolutely for the best. I had a total blast watching it and I know I’ll be seeing it again a few more times. The only downside which really isn’t a downside is now that I’ve seen it in IMAX 3D, that’s the only way I’m going to be able to watch it at the theater and I’m going to have to spring for a big 3D television for when it’s released on blu-ray. Fantastic movie!

608. Spockmaster - May 16, 2013

Has anyone else thought that the parts of the plot not taken from TWOK were taken from “Homefront/Paradise Lost” from season 4 of DS9?

You know, Admiral with self-inflated sense of importance creates secret plot to take over/militarize Starfleet in order to deal with a war he is convinced is coming, is even willing to destroy a Federation starship and kill its crew to keep his charade going, crew is forced to stop him, etc etc etc? Im having trouble coming up with any part of this movie’s story that feels original.

For the record, I hate the movie. I was barely tolerating Khan being the villain right up to the point where they reverse copied the engineering scene. Im sure they thought it was clever and an homage, but to me it was nothing more than a blatant ripoff of one of the best scenes from THE best Trek movie. It feels intellectually dishonest and frankly insulted me as a fan. Kirk’s death was completely hollow and had no emotional impact for me. With a third movie coming up, you KNOW they weren’t going to kill him off, and the obvious solution to his “death” was not-so-subtly shown earlier on in the film. That scene ruined the entire movie for me. I have numerous other complaints, but compared to this its just nitpicking.

Really the only part I liked about it was the acting of the main cast. Pine, Quinto, and Cumberbatch were absolutely brilliant despite the awful story.

609. I am not Herbert (retired) - May 16, 2013

I agree with Sean’s nerd-rage. BobOrci deserves it.

I don’t need to see it, to know it’s dumb (nu)fan-wanking… =(

610. I am not Herbert (retired) - May 16, 2013

Brevard: Good Stuff! =D ROFLMAO!!

611. TerranGuy93 - May 16, 2013

#601

Of course Klingons are going to feature in the next movie.

The main villain will of course be a klingon named Kargh who is just a lowly rebel but in a twist people figure out before the movie comes out its Kruge commanding a special Mega Bird of Prey. Kirk will be a brash moron getting his behind handed to him, until his mind is put into Bones and his body deages. Then itll be up to Spock to save Kirk by kicking Kruge off a cliff on an exploding lava planet. It’ll be a homage to Star Trek 3, not a ripoff because the characters are reversed. ;)

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist.

612. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

@605. Brevard

what a waste of time…..

613. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

610 – lol

No no, it’ll be about Kirk’s brother, who doesn’t like the Federation, stealing the enterprise to go find God at the center of the galaxy. But this time with Romulans chasing after them

614. Captain Peabody - May 16, 2013

If @boborci is still answering questions…

Since they gave Khan a new identity in the English dude John Harrison, can we also say they gave him plastic surgery too? After all, Khan is a fairly famous historical figure who might be recognizable…

Are we going to get any kind of followup with the Klingon situation? Admiral Marcus has a point–they did invade Klingon space and kill a bunch of them, and Starfleet has to be ready for them. The ending felt a bit rushed to me because of that…

Speaking of this, why didn’t any ships or people in the Sol system notice or intervene in the battle between the Enterprise and the Vengeance? Are we supposed to assume Admiral Marcus ordered all the other ships out of the system for the occasion?

I appreciated the Section 31 reference. Did the very similar DS9 plotlines influence your story at all, or was it just a nod for fans? Admiral Marcus is a pretty similar character to Admiral Leyton from the Earth two-parter, as are a lot of the concerns…

615. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

I still hope that the third movie will be Kirk vs.Borg, except at this point, I kinda hope the Borg win…

616. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2013

@509. BatlethInTheGroin,
“Well, sure, you can completely make up unsubstantiated scenarios–feel free. I, for example, think Harrison is a shape-shifting purple Mugato avenging the death of his pet Tellarite at the hands of Charles Evans. Nothing in the films says this isn’t the case.”

Thank you for making my point.

617. Mr. Hyde - May 16, 2013

@610
And don’t forget that Kruge has to kill Carol Marcus at some point… most likely right after she disclosed to Kirk that she was pregnant with their son… whom they decided to name David…

618. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

There are no plot holes in this Movie.

The real Problem are the people trying desperately to find plot holes.

619. Christian - May 16, 2013

Thursday AM Update: Star Trek Into Darkness earned an estimated $2 million from 8 p.m. screenings at 336 IMAX locations yesterday. It also earned $1.3 million at midnight; while that figure is very low, it’s likely due more to the confusing last-minute date change than to a lack of interest or awareness.

http://boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3685&p=.htm

620. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

617 – while I suppose the Vengeance being built around Jupiter isn’t a plot hole per say, it is pretty ludicrous to be building a top-secret section 31 ship in the middle of the home system of the Federation

621. Goodbye Apollo - May 16, 2013

@46
I’ve seen it once, but I felt exactly that. When Harrison revealed he was Khan, I was initially removed. Before that I was LOVING it. I wasn’t dissapointed after the reveal, but I thought ‘wow, theýre really doing this, and how do i feel about the excecution of it?’.
I admit it distracted me. I still need that second view to completely accept it and to focus on all those other great things this movie has to offer.

@in general
Because damn, this is in many the ways the movie I have been waiting for all my life haha (I’m 24). This is the kind of movie I wanted to see ever since I saw the Original Star wars, and I’m talking about the feel, the look and it’s tone. I knew going in that would be more of an action flick than a intellectual time travel or prime directive story (though they did include the latter)

I see why JJ said that he put everything into this one, and all but the best he had to offer. It’s been brilliantly shot, and editted.
The Kronos scenes gave me goosebumps. The fight scenes where mindblowing, I’ve never seen Star Trek this ‘cool’ and Klingons are REALLY intimidating again.

This movie will convince a sci fi hater, to pick up trek. This movie will convince remaining haters of the 2009 movie in general (not trekkies) that these characters no only work, but they will be a (re)discovery to them.

I have so much to say about this film but of the TWOK moment I can only say this:
Of all the souls I have encountered, spock’s ‘Kahn-yell’ was the most human.

I loved it that spock said it, It made me feel like it was always meant to be his line (yes really). It made so much sense story and character wise and it saved the whole scene, It was a bold move to use that TWOK moment and reverse it, showing us that in this alternate time line it was the logical thing to do.
It also gave some purpose to Nimoy’s cameo, reminding us not that Khan is dangerous, but that some things may be destined to play out one way or another; If spock doesn’t die then Kirk will, either way, ‘the cost would be great’.

This films is a major accomplisment and I hope that everyone who disagrees with me will get to enjoy it at some point!

622. Mr. Anonymous - May 16, 2013

So, how many times are there going to be “Wrath of Khan” remakes? I mean, “Nemesis” was essentially a remake of it, and this movie had entire scenes lifted from it, only switching the roles of Kirk & Spock. I don’t know, I was hoping it’d be far less remakey.

And, I hate to say anything ill of Cumberbatch, because he IS a great actor, but he’s no Montalban as far as portraying Khan’s inherent arrogance.

If the movie had been less stolen from other Treks, I’d have probably loved it. I don’t know. Maybe I’m just sick of so many Hollywood movies being so prone to resorting to nostalgia to fill in gaps where there aren’t any new ideas. It’s the same problem I encountered with “Superman Returns” a few years back. It was tragically nostalgic, and “Into Darkness” just kinda made me think back to how much I liked “Wrath of Khan,” “Space Seed,” and “The Undiscovered Country” (when Sulu took command), and how if I want to see that stuff, I could just pop those in.

Didn’t they reboot the timeline so they could tell us original stories? Just my two cents, I suppose.

623. laszlo_toth - May 16, 2013

Spock jumps into a volcano.
Dr. McCoy operates on a tribble.
Scotty goes clubbing in San Fran in a 70s leisure suit.
Sulu gets to be captain.
Uhura talks smack to Klingons.
Chekov damn near blows up the ship.
Capt. Kirk gets a lesson or two in humility and has a threesome with cat people.
I’m not sure what more I could ask for from a Star Trek movie…

624. Treckin - May 16, 2013

Loving all the hating losers in here – if you’re such trek fans you’d stop spewing that garbage and go get a career in humanitarian aid work or something.

Such sweet nerd tears in neck beards…

625. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#582 “So to all you armchair critic and directors I borrow the words of Christopher Pike “I challenge you to do better”! Make a Star Trek Movie! Write it, produce it, direct it!”
*************
This oft-stated position is one of the dumbest things ever uttered. It’s an idiotic statement. A person doesn’t have to make a better movie to be able to criticize other films. That’s like saying someone has to be a master chef before they’re allowed to complain about food cooked by others.

No. NO, NO, NO. That’s insanely stupid.

I don’t have to be a chef to tell that my food is undercooked or overseasoned or rancid. But by this “Don’t complain unless you can do better” idea says that I should eat whatever crap is served to me unless I can prove that I can make better.

No, I can criticize as the consumer without having to prove that I am better than the producer. I can complain about a substandard product even if I cannot personally make a better one.

I wish fans would drop this stupidity. It’s completely legitimate to complain about the crappy quality of something we’ve paid good money for.

And when so much of what Abrams, Orci, et al give us is PLAGIARIZED from previous movies (two Treks in a row where they’ve lifted TWOK scenes), you should be aiming the challenge to “Do better” at them, NOT at the fans who are calling the writers on their unoriginality and outright plagiarism here.

626. Vespasian - May 16, 2013

Some people here say that this film is an insult to The Wraith of Khan… that’s bullsh*t, The Search for Spock was the movie that ruined TWOK, resetting everything back to point zero.

Anyhoo, I really liked Star Trek Into Darkness, I’d rate it 7.5/10, I didn’t LOVE it as much as the last movie, but still…

Three highlights for me: Kirk (Chris Pine’s performance was superb!), Scotty and Khan.

The score was awesome!

I didn’t hate the generator “death” scene, but it was unnecessary, even from a character POV. Admiral Pike’s death scene was better.

The Klingons were also somewhat superfluous, but I liked their scenes so I’ll give that a pass.:)

Now, what should happen in Star Trek 3 (that is actually 13)?

Mr boborci, I think you should do a cerebral plot this time, a little like The Motion Picture, but less dull. Don’t get me wrong, I really like this new incarnation of Star Trek, but I’m already worried about franchise fatigue and audience disinterest for the third film.

But, congratulations on the success of Star Trek Into Darkness!

627. WillH85 - May 16, 2013

I’m a Trekkie but I’m also a realist. There are going to be lots of people (well Trekkies) that are going to bash the movie (and probably have the same criticisms of the last one too) for being action oriented and not having the heart of what Star Trek was. As much as I’d love to see that kind of Star Trek come back, I know that if it does, it won’t be on the big screen. In order to get the kind of budget that JJ got for these movies they have to pull in big audiences, Trekkies alone, no matter how good of a turnout, won’t come close to cutting it. Action movies with lots of cool effects bring in those audiences. I’ve come to accept that now and learned to appreciate the last movie for what it was and the same goes for STID.

What I liked:

-The numerous nods and references that only Trekkies would get.

-More Bones this time.

-Khan, and I never thought I’d say this. But honestly, even though he’s not the original, I liked Cumberbatch more than Montalban. I say this in the sense that I imagine an augment that once held great power and thought him self greatly superior, frozen for 300 years, would be more like how Cumberbatch’s portrayal. He even looks more the part, especially based off of the augments we saw in Enterprise. I also think that his superior intellect was shown better in this movie due to the complexity of his plot.

-The battle scene, well not so much battle but the Enterprise gets torn a new one scene. Looked amazing, so much detail that they just couldn’t do back in the day.

-The Enterprise interior, felt a lot less like a brewery and more like a starship.

-The whole Pike/Kirk thing. Thought that drove the story well.

-New warp effect, probably my favorite so far, at least when they used the warp flash with it.

-Klingons looked cool.

What I didn’t like

-No attention to important details like distance. Even in the 24th century it takes a while to get from Klingon space to Earth, not a few minutes, not a few hours either. Other things like transwarp beaming that throw away the set standard of rules set for Star Trek tech for the sake of plot were somewhat annoying too. The warp core bugged me too, not as much in the first movie, but the thing’s an anti-matter reactor and that doesn’t work by just having some random beam of energy jump from one thing to another.

-The Dreadnaught ship. It’s been said on here before, but having movie after movie with one big and extremely overpowered ship after another that is able to pummle to Enterprise kinda gets old. It was cool in Nemesis (at least I thought) and was meh in 09. I liked this ship better than the Narada but it still felt like just a dark mass in space with a bunch of weapons, the same as the Narada. TWOK was cool because Khan’s ship was pretty much equal to that of the Enterprise but he out-witted Kirk in order to cripple it.

-Kirk’s “death” scene was a love/hate thing. I thought it was awesome, even though it was a total reversal of Spock’s from TWOK, but we all knew he wasn’t going to stay dead and it was pretty obvious Khan’s blood would save him.

Overall I liked it. This is what Star Trek (at least movie Trek) is now, and if you can accept that you’ll have a good time watching it. If not, you’re wasting your time complaining because it’s not going to go back to how it was.

628. Theatre Historian - May 16, 2013

The thing I love about movies is they are SUBJECTIVE on a PERSONAL level, when a team has done their job crafting a film. The final result creates all sorts of views and opinons.

No two people are going to walk away with the same experience, no matter how good or bad a movie is.

why trash talk someone who doesn’t agree with you, about something that you naturally are going to interpret differently to begin with because no two people are exactly alike.

whether you like it or dislike it or are ambivilent about it, its your journey.
And what you think is what matters.
You will never hear me say someone is wrong or crazy or anything If I didnt take away the same experience that THEY took from a movie.

If everyone liked everything without questioning or if everyone hated all the same movies it would be a pretty boring experience watching ANY film.

629. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

@boborci….

..I was hoping you’d put a line in STID (or maybe a Khan specific issue of the comic series) that states he was created by Massive Dynamics..that would be kind of a cool little cross over, and why not?

630. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

@627. Theatre Historian

Very good.

631. THX-1138 - May 16, 2013

#627 Theater Historian

I have been talking about this very subject all over the internet. Here is a post I made to one of the prominent members of the Grand Trek Community:

I question anyone who blames a Star Trek fan for any kind of “franchise problem”. Fans are exactly what SAVED Star Trek to begin with. Just so everyone is clear:
There are TOS fans that don’t like anything that came after. That’s OK.
There are fans that like the movies better than the TV shows. That’s OK.
There are fans that like DS9 better than any other Trek. That’s OK.
There are fans that like Voyager and Enterprise but never could get into anything else. That’s OK.
There are fans that like TNG and TOS and everything else in a pinch. That’s OK.
There are fans that like all of it. That’s OK.
And there are a million different combinations I could come up with. And they are all OK. But everyone should be able to say that they like one thing and not another and not have their fandom questioned. Personally I can find faults within ALL of it. And I point it out when I feel like it. I would never dream of belittling or insulting someone because they like the direction that Trek is going and I don’t. But don’t expect me to not debate another fan about the relative merits or lack thereof of any particular iteration of Star Trek. Because I am a Star Trek fan and that is what we have been doing since the 60′s.

632. Trek Lover - May 16, 2013

I thought that JJ was to be a Great Director and taking Star Trek in a new direction. I saw ST:Into Darkness. I found it was just a retelling of the Khan story. Where is the new story line??

It was well told, but it still is just the same story line, just retold in a different way.

633. Aurore - May 16, 2013

1. Montalban was Spanish, not mestizo Mexican. He was a European who wore tanning makeup to appear vaguely Sikh….”

__________

We all know the story.

Obviously, things are far from being perfect today, but those were different times.

He was a man who knew a lot about some unfair Hollywood casting practises ….and tried to do something about it.

“In summary, the ‘Khan’t believe he’s white’ contingency doesn’t have a leg to stand on….”

I am in fact part of the “I Khan’t believe a character described as a North Indian Sikh, in Space Seed, is not Indian any more”.

However I stand firm on my own two feet ; giving my opinions on topics which are of interest to me is all I’m doing here. Not to mention that I am well aware of one thing…

…What I think of the decision made by the writers and the director of the sequel regarding “John Harrison” won’t prevent it from being a success ( it already is, many have seen it and enjoyed it) anymore than my ignoring every Star Trek series that wasn’t The Original Series prevented the franchise to thrive….

634. Jack Zymurgy - May 16, 2013

@628 YES! And a passing Walter reference would be fun! I mean, hey, you worked slusho in last time…

635. T'Cal - May 16, 2013

Cool stuff to look and listen for:

Models of the Phoenix, NX-Alpha, NX-01, Kelvin, and the ring ship
Mentions of a Gorn multiple birth, the Mudd incident, the Kelvin Memorial Archives.

636. crazydaystrom - May 16, 2013

Just saw it and still digesting. I’ll definitely be seeing it again this weekend. Right now I have to rate it a ‘good Star Trek movie’. Not a great one and certainly not the best one. My biggest disappointment …the use of KHAN. Then essentially redoing the “death” scene and the KHHAAANNN yell.

The film did LOOK great and I absolutely LOVED the new areas of the E that we got to see. Costumes, acting, all the set designs and SFX were top-notch. Also loved seeing so much more of 23rd century earth. But it all left me mostly unmoved. What percentage of the audience would you say really thought Kirk was actually going to stay “dead”? A very small one I’d wager. Therefore the scene had little emotional impact. And I think emotional impact was something I was expecting considering the Kelvin scene from ’09 was and still is the most moving Star Trek scene ever IMO. Nothing like that for me in this one.

I guess the Star Trek of my dreams may never be realized on screen but only in print. Like I said I’ll be seeing it again at least once more.

637. Trekker5 - May 16, 2013

I just watched the movie. I loved it! :) The 4 year wait was very much rewarded!

I was one who wasn’t thinking it would be Khan,so I was suprised when I heard that he was. But I loved Cumberbach! He was so good in his role,when he was on screen I couldn’t hardly look away from him,his voice was just awesome! :) Bob,should you read this,you did an awesome job on the movie and lying like a dog to us saying Harrison wasn’t Khan. :)

Another thing that suprised me was Pike’s death,I gasped out loud when he died.

I loved the Klingons! And seeing Bones working in the sickbay,and seeing Kirk and Spock getting closer was good too. And of course Nimoy showing up was a cake topper! :) Just the whole thing was great for me,there are a million things I’m not mentioning but could! :) Just thanks alot Bob!

638. Dustin Hatchett (Colorado_Gamer) - May 16, 2013

@boborci

As a fan of both Lost and Star Trek I get what STID is doing. I think “Space Seed”, “TWoK” and “STID” should all be watched together to appreciate what can be done with characters and story arch.

Here is to Kirk being a good Dad and husband to Carol after loosing his in this timeline.

I did notice Chris Hemsworth and Jennifer Morrison in the credits… Here,here to a director’s cut or some deleted items on the Blu-ray.

Lastly I loved…

68. boborci – May 15, 2013
66. Karen

DING! We have a winner!

Thanks again for a great night out at the movies with my wife.

639. Aurore - May 16, 2013

632. Correction

-I am in fact part of the “I Khan’t believe a character described as a North Indian Sikh, in Space Seed, is not Indian any more” contingency.

-…anymore than my ignoring every Star Trek series that wasn’t The Original Series prevented the franchise from thriving….

640. Aurore - May 16, 2013

Hi Olivia!

641. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

@633..yeah, have Spock Prime mention the Bishop Principles of Alternate Realities….well, this new reality could very well fit within the confines of the alternate reality stuff that Walter dealt with, which would explain the technology differences between the two realities and why Spock Prime just can’t sling shot around the sun to get back to this time or change what happened…new Trek reality is and was always an alternate reality to begin with…

..you could also use that background to pull Shatner Kirk out of the Nexus. The nexus was not fully developed anyways, and we know that an echo of the individual always stays in the Nexus, so just say that the echo can split itself into any reality it wishes but only once, so, quick way to get Shatner Kirk into this new reality. Bingo!

642. BatlethInTheGroin - May 16, 2013

#551: And YOU must be forgetting that he’d already thawed one out, in order to put Kirk in that unit.

643. Starman - May 16, 2013

After a day to let it sink in, here’s what I’ve got to say:

Star Trek Into Darkness was a lot of fun. If you’re going to nitpick it to death, you had BETTER look at your own fandom and tell yourself “TOS is perfect”, and if you do that, you’re a fool.

Star Trek has many flaws. Many, many flaws. You understand that there are some corners you have to cut to tell a story in 50 minutes, and some eagle-eyed viewers are going to pick these up. Like, “why didn’t the tech from episode X work in episode Y”, or “If character X just did Y, which seems obvious, this would never have happened”.

Now people are nitpicking the crap out of STID. There are two things about it that bothered me: the time it takes to go large distances, and the fact that this movie was said to be for non-Trek fans but Khan’s character wasn’t fleshed out enough for people that had no idea who he was. Spock Prime shouldn’t have been in this film, he was there as a writer’s crutch to fill in the blanks that SHOULD have been filled in by a proper backstory.

Off the top of my head, here are some responses to issues:

Kirk’s resurrection was too easy. Oh, and you’re telling me that all of a sudden you can pop a Vulcan’s consciousness back into him (ST III)? Come on, if you’re going to accept THAT, you can’t complain about this.

Marcus’ accent: said to be in a deleted scene that was cut for time/pacing. She grew up with her mother in England.

Nobody knowing who Carol was since her dad was head of Starfleet. Well, I don’t know the family of people in the military or NASA.

If you want a smarter Star Trek, bring it back on TV where you can take more risks.

644. Davexbit - May 16, 2013

This is a fun movie to watch. I think it’s great for new fans who may not be familiar with the old series and movies. It’s a beautifully crafted movie and I really loved seeing the Enterprise in views I’ve never seen before. There is a lot in the movie that will provide a lot for new TV series. JJ and the gang really expanded the Universe of Starfleet in space as well as the ground.
The fast action was great, the acting superb essentially what most people have written. There are times I felt I was looking at Star Wars and not Star Trek. Getting more in to the relationships was great but still felt like an afterthought in relation to the action. The new look for the Klingons is great. The editing is very tight.

Ok the other stuff. As a fan for so long disappointed with the Kahn story. The twist was interesting. This felt like Paramount asking for a story on the most bankable villain in the Star Trek canon. I guess for the money spent I could see why you would go for the sure thing. As a fan, Gary Mitchell would have been much better. Perhaps, there is a bigger story for a TV series that we know nothing about. In the end the execution of the movie was fantastic it’s just not very original. I guess this is the rehash generation.

645. Capn Bill - May 16, 2013

Mr. Orci – two words – LOVED IT – nuff said

646. The Original Spock's Brain - May 16, 2013

Gracias, Roberto Orci.

647. boborci - May 16, 2013

463. Jack Zymurgy – May 16, 2013
@boborci

I loved the movie- but I’m begging you, get JJ and Pegg to turn “I’ve been off this ship for one day” to “I’ve been off this ship for one week” so that you don’t throw people out of the film.

—–

Damn it, good catch. Shoulda’ done that! Slipped by me.

648. Starman - May 16, 2013

Oh, one more thing for people bitching about the Enterprise underwater:

Every foot of seawater is 0.44 psi. It is said in “Who Mourns for Adonais” that the Enterprise can withstand about 1000psi or more.

The Enterprise is 200 ft. high, that means it’s roughly 88psi. FAR less than what the Enterprise should be able to withstand.

649. Cap'n Calhoun - May 16, 2013

Guys, guys. Into Darkness was not a rip-off of Wrath of Khan. I can see where you might get confused. You were probably watching Nemesis by mistake. Into Darkness is the movie that has Khan *in it* (as well as Carol Marcus), and it heavily homages the warp core reactor sequence/character “death”, but otherwise the two have pretty much nothing in common.

Hope this helps. @boborci, you are the man. I saw the “use Khan’s blood” escape hatch a mile away (before Kirk “died”), and you still brought a tear to my eye with the “death scene” you jerks. (And that is not something easily accomplished, although you almost managed it with Pike too. Seriously, what do you guys have against me?) It’s a shame that some people are so obsessed with TWOK that they can’t see this for the great movie that it was.

650. Scottie - May 16, 2013

The “wink wink” to the audience when certain familiar scenes/words were resurrected was SO heavy handed — this was homage almost to the point of parody, though I have no doubt it was well-intentioned.

651. Al - May 16, 2013

Did you notice the image of Spock on the viewscreen was reversed? I know because of the odd shape of one of Nimoy’s ears.

652. With Fans Like These... - May 16, 2013

I’m just dying to say this…. “I knew it!”

I knew Benedict was going to be Khan all along! Hahahahaha!!! I knew it back when I heard what the last scene was supposed to be in the last film… the Botany Bay adrift.

My thoughts were reconfirmed when they tried to hire two different Latin actors for the bad guy, obviously trying to replicate what Ricardo Montalban did on TV and in Wrath of Khan. I never wavered in my certainty and then a few months ago when EW posted their Into Darkness Summer Preview covers with the word “Khan”, that cemented it.

It is exactly what they should have done and I praise Bob, Alex, Damon, Bryan, and J.J. for sticking to their guns, thru unprecedented, and many times, uncalled for, fan hate for ruining “their” Star Trek by doing what you were hired to do… make a kick-ass film. That’s why J.J. and Crew are making movies, and the haters are sitting at home on their computers, hating what they will never get a chance to do… make Star Trek movies!

J.J., get ready for these same people to hate you even more once any, ANY, news about Star Wars starts coming out. Just do what you always do… what feels right. There are millions of us out here who love the work you’re doing. Engage!

Now that that’s out of the way… Into Darkness was really good! Great, in fact. It succeeded on being it’s own thing, while maintaining the visual and story telling continuity established by the first one… only bigger, bolder, more action, more character depth and yet it was still true to core of the original TV series, which I still love the best.

I managed to stay clear of most of the hype and images from this movie, so, aside from the fact that I knew for years it was going to be Khan, the film’s plot was a total surprise to me. Spoilers are only spoilers if you go looking for them.

The biggest surprise for me was seeing Leonard Nimoy AGAIN! Lol! I loved that part… “New Vulcan” too! So cool!

I also loved that the Enterprise didn’t die… I was really hoping they wouldn’t force us to get used to another redesign so soon.

I like that they killed Admiral Pike off. That was Kirk’s mentor (like a surrogate father, really) and when the mentor is gone, Kirk has to fully graduate to his own person.

I love the juxtaposed Wrath of Khan ending and adding Carol Marcus to the crew… she and Kirk have a date and break up movie coming down the “pike” unless they manage to get it right, in this time line.

And what I loved the most… and this will acquiesce to the many vociferous fans out there who wanted this film to get back to doing what Star TREK is about… TREKKING!… what I loved most was the end, with Kirk reading “the captain’s oath”, as they embark on their five year mission to explore the galaxy.

Now that you’ve proven yourselves to be able to follow up a huge action movie with another equally action packed film… Bob, Alex, Damon and (hopefully) J.J. too… I hope you will follow that captain’s oath and challenge yourselves to come up with a third film that shows us what strange new worlds and new civilizations you can create that take us where none of us have ever been before!

653. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

648 – Nemesis was actually better

Yes, the movie has nothing in common with Wreath of Khan except:

- Khan
- engineering scene
- carol marcus
- Khan takes control of a federation ship
- super weapons as a major plot device.

nothing in common at all!

654. Cap'n Calhoun - May 16, 2013

Incidentally, regarding the race change:

This was never said (or necessarily hinted) in the movie, but I was wondering if that was part of his cover. Past giving him a different name, it wouldn’t surprise me if they totally changed his look.

I mean, why name him something like “John Harrison” otherwise, right?

@boborci, am I on to something here? Or am I just making excuses? Benedict did such a great job that I’m wiling to let this pass without explanation

655. Cap'n Calhoun - May 16, 2013

@652

You mean all the stuff that I mentioned? Which, other than sharing characters (and “super weapons”, debatably), makes up about 10 minutes of a 2+ hour movie? I think you’re making my point for me.

656. EllenC - May 16, 2013

Even though there were some great character moments for almost every Enterprise crew, the movie felf quite a meh for me, mainly because there’s no pressing sense of peril. The scope of this one is actually much narrower than the first JJ reboot, and although there are two villains in this movie, they were all sketchily written and as an audience I never kept on my toes for one second, not because Weller and Cumberbatch gave bad performances, they were very good, Cumberbatch’s physicality was particularly badassery during the fight sequences, but then that’s it. After Harrison revealed that he’s Khan, all his actions felt like he’s just stupid and very easily fooled; how is such a idiot superior than everyone? Also, is there anyone believing Kirk would really die in this movie?? I actually felt quite sorry for Cumberbatch for being stuck with this poorly written so-called “super villain” , but in fact just an idiot, and had to make it convincing; this is probably why he won all the praise.

657. Cap'n Calhoun - May 16, 2013

@652 (again)

And, by your logic, TWOK was a total rip-off of “Space Seed”, which has almost everything you mentioned.

658. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

654 – it doesn’t have to be a beat for beat copy for it to be a “remake.” It’s clear what the intention was. They wanted to make their own version of Wrath of Khan with their own twists. That include changing details, and even lifting entire scenes. But at it’s core, it’s Wrath of Khan, Part 2

659. boborci - May 16, 2013

495. Bill Peters – May 16, 2013

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing that!

660. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

656 – really? Space Seed had Khan. Pretty much none of the others. He nominally had control of the Enterprise for a while but he didn’t really do anything with it

661. Laura George - May 16, 2013

@boborci

There are many things that I love about this film, but here’s one: after trying to get my two 19 year old daughter to watch various Trek things (one girl’s review of TWOK: “I’m so bored I think I might die” — and I used to think it was the “fast-paced” ST movie!), this movie has created Trek converts who will now happily engage with Trek materials. Thank you! They’re also telling their friends that it was “totally awesome” — so I have real hopes of Trek memes continuing to morph and be vital parts of 21st century culture. Thanks again.

It’s almost impossible to recreate the kind of intimacy between characters that can grow in a weekly series (and then 6ish movies) in two 2 hour movies, but both ST 09 and STID do the best possible job. The Spock humor was genuinely enjoyable to me (who’s been watching Spock since 4am viewings on local television reruns were the only option in the early 1970s) and my daughters, one of whom is still confused by the whole Vulcan thing. The one thing that I’ve really, really missed in the two movies so far is McCoy’s centrality to the Kirk/Spock relationship. I know that the word “bromance” didn’t exist in the late 60s (or 80s) and that K/S is one of the formative bromances & slash dyads in US popular culture — but in the ST I know, McCoy was central to that dynamic. Not only a third-wheel. The bromance here was intense (thank god for Uhuru and the two alien chicks in bed with JTK — they must be hetero!). I missed McCoy’s astringency taking the violins down a bit.

Mostly, though, I think that you and your team have succeeded with a nearly impossible job — bring people born in the 1960s and 1990′s together in pleasure and fandom — and hungry for more!

662. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

656 – but I’ll agree with you on one thing. There is a big part of Space Seed and Wrath of Khan not included. They completely emaciated Khan’s intellectual superiority. Both Space Seed and Wrath of Khan were about an intellectual battle between Kirk and Khan. In this one, there was none of that, really.

Sure, Khan used Kirk, but it was more because Kirk had no choice but to trust Khan to get out of the situation he was in. But Kirk still saw right through Khan’s ultimate intentions.

663. Treckin - May 16, 2013

Its good they never had the internet in Trek, or Kirk would have been recalled from his 5 year mission due to internet troll tears…

664. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

Honestly, I really enjoyed the movie! And yes there were inconsistencies and it didn’t really bother me. The cast was good, the action was good, the homage to TWOK was fine, humor level was there for Star Trek. I just have to say when BC said “my name is Khan”. Me initial gut reaction was “no you’re not!”(said it out loud at premier). And it’s probably just me and what I know about Khan that made me think that. It would be like my cat saying “I’m actually a dog”. I’d be all like come on cat… You ain’t no dog! I’m going to go again this weekend and I’m more awake and just accept the fact that he’s khan and try to really enjoy the flick.

665. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

I’ve read this now a couple of times……

To say Wrath of Khan is better than Star Trek Into Darkness is like saying Batman(1989) is better then The Dark Knight.

Good night everybody!.

666. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

Batman 1989 was better than the dark knight

667. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

I will go on record and say I thought STID was better than TWOK though. TWOK ship battle was totally flawed, and the genesis weapon was stupid.

668. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

664 – the Joker is also someone who has been in so many stories that there is almost literally no wrong way to tell it as long as you get the basics of his character right (brilliantly insane criminal)

669. Starfleet Battles - May 16, 2013

@boborci

Thank you for what will become an iconic scene that will replace Generations in my mind forever. I never thought I’d get over seeing the bridge on the Captain, and the horrible handling of that critical moment that inevitably must happen in every life, but your version was exceptional!

Also, thanks for giving us a story about friendship, loyalty, and development into a leader. Watching Jim Kirk begin to trust his crew and take their advice was a lesson every leader must learn, and you handled it beautifully on multiple occasions.

In 1982 I was a high school student and went to see Wrath of Khan with my dad, who put me in front of the TV to watch Star Trek when it was airing, and first in syndication. When the engine room scene played, tears rolled down my face and I was embarrassed until I snuck a look at my military vet dad, and he was crying as well. Today my 10 and 11 year old cried with me as we watched your film, and it felt like my dad was there with us. I know I sound a little nutty, but Star Trek was something my dad and I always had in common, and my only regret is that he couldn’t be with us today. He would have loved your film.

670. Moviegoer - May 16, 2013

First, I want to say that I enjoyed this movie greatly. However, I was somewhat disappointed in parts of the storyline, as well as some of the material. I definitely have higher hopesthat in the next one, if Orci, Kutzman, and Lindelof are involved in writing it, the writers come up with a more original script.
I love the orginal Star Trek as well as the new one, but please for the love of God, learn to separate them. You can do that now. Seriously. I know I’m just one person, and these guys are the ones employed to make the big bucks. But please guys, you have the potenial to make a better movie for not only other moviegoers but closet trekkers like myself. I would love to see the next one be so AWESOME that it makes me literally crap my pants!
JJ’s a great director and producer, but let’s face it, this is just another movie to him. He focused on regular moviegoers so he can hear everyone know how amazing he is. These people aren’t going to know that these guys did a major amount of plagiarism. Yes, plagiarism.

Let me define it to those of you that don’t fully understand what plagiarism is. it is straight from the dictionary: “1. noun. a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work. 2. noun. the act of plagiarizing; taking someone’s words or ideas as if they were their own.”

I just hope that JJ doesn’t let what happened in this Star Trek movie happen in Star Wars episode VII. Heck, Lucas pretty much did it to Star Wars already in the prequel episodes. He too over-reused material from the orginal trilogy. If you want to be truly amazing and brilliant, do something NEW. You can have the same characters, but let them progress and change. If you can think of anything original next time, call me. I’ll help you next time. I know without a doubt that I could help you guys revolutionize the genre as well as the industry. You guys definitely have the potential. Your work is amazing already. However your imaginations are in need of sprucing. you need to focus on being more orginal. stop standing on the shoulders of greater men and women.
I’ll stop my rant there.
Again, this movie was great despite my disappointment. If you left out the Khan part of the movie, and the reverse of the death scene between Kirk and Spock, this would have been my favorite Star Trek movie of all time. ST2TWOK is the best one of all time. What they did with that movie was amazing and original. The writers and producers of STID played on that originality. Orci, Kutzman, and Lindelof if you ever read my comment, I just want to let you guys know you have lost my respect. I know it might mean nothing to you, but it did to me.

671. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

667- also white face, red lips, and green hair. Anything besides that would be like casting a Brit to play Khan! Jk Jk Jk

672. Sasebonian - May 16, 2013

One of the changes made to the refit of the Enterprise was the Impulse engines. They are one long engine, versus the smaller 2 that were closer in design to the TOS Movie Enteprise.

673. Treckin - May 16, 2013

@668

I cried too and I imagine many of the troll h8ters did too.

I thought that the hints about divergent timelines being often more parallel then then not was also a cool nod to the alternate universe side of Star Trek. It makes you wonder how the crews 5-year mission will play out, and it was pretty brilliant (not unexpectedly).

Also, the introduction of the 5-year mission at the end of the movie was a very strong tug at my heartstrings; the only conceivable way that this crew could do a 5-year mission is on TV (hopefully Netflix to kick the networks in the balls).

674. adamgardiner - May 16, 2013

We all have our own views on what Trek should and should not be I except that but we all have to except through miss-management of certain individuals <> Brannon Braga <> our Trek died with ‘These are the Voyages’ which a lot of people have refused to watch due to how self serving it is to the legacy of Rick Berman and Brannon Braga. Now, back when VI was pitched Harve Bennett, who rescued Trek from absolute obscurity, wanted to make a prequel, a film depicting these guys in the academy set up in the end we had Nick Meyer come back and deliver the wonderful Undiscovered Country pitched on one line “what if the wall came down in outer space” now here we are some 12 years later and we have a new vision, a fresh idea, and because its not our Trek then anything these guys do will be put under the upmost scrutiny? Where were you when Braga hit the reset button for like the 5th time in Year of Hell, where were you through the entire Xindi arc of Enterprise? You all want the universe reset, why? We have a new crew on new adventures seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no-one has gone before and just because Khan is back and he’s Caucasian and British and there’s that reactor scene it must must be a rehash? I haven’t seen the movie yet, I read the spoilers and I was disappointed I’ll admit that, then I dug around a little and it kinda made sense, Khan has regenerative powers why shouldn’t his blood enable another body to be repaired? Khan is a genetically modified super human at a time just after the collapse of the British empire, apart from the fact the Botany Bay was launched before the Nero Incursion and so he should appear as he did in Space Seed why can’t he be a Caucasian he doesn’t have to be Indian to be a Sikh correct me if I’m wrong as Sikhism is a religion not a way of life and the Cox novels have stated Khan threw away his religion anyway to explain his appearance in Space Seed. Bottom line, Trek is alive and well, instead of ending with that abismal excuse for an episode of Enterprise and riding this wave they are calling for a 5th season of Enterprise, a 13th movie and the 50th aniversary for god sake. Yes we’re going to disagree on a lot of things that’s the nature of humanity but stop shooting these guys, these wonderful people who have breathed new life into a dying corpse of a franchise, down if you keep on maybe they’ll decide they don’t want the hassle anymore and they’ll stop making movies and then Trek will die.

675. shannon - May 16, 2013

I really enjoyed the movie, just wished I had an imax nearby. the reactor part actually had me tear up a bit, because I really enjoyed Pine’s Kirk, he had me believe in the scene (even though I knew about the blood it still moved me.

IMHO it was well done to JJ and company, looking forward to the aftermath in the comics and in 2016.

676. Phil - May 16, 2013

Hey, Bob….

Haven’t seen the movie yet. Also, I know you can’t (or won’t) comment on commitments to a third movie. A question – at some point a decision was made to refer or build story around known characters from the prime universe, though details are subject to change. Were events in this movie meant to establish continuity moving into a story for a third picture, or was this developed with the intent of giving you (or another writer) a clean break moving into the third installment?

As a follow up, reviews have been overall very positive (I’m discounting the ones that are way off the reservation for whatever reason), but a general criticism has been that STID does venture a bit to far into fan service. Knowing that, would that cause you (or another writer) to back off the use of known characters a bit in the third installment?

Way back I wasn’t hot on the idea of a Khan centric story, because of the potential for the inevitable comparisons to SS and WOK. Still being a couple weeks out from seeing the movie, I won’t judge until I see it, but I’ll give you a tip of the hat for tackling the project that could potentially be a thankless job if it doesn’t perform to expectations. Not a question, just an observation. We will see if it properly rewarded if Paramount gives the thumbs up to the third installment right away…

677. BotanyBay - May 16, 2013

By the way everyone, the star trek site posted an article with a really good look at the new impulse engines at the end of the movie

http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/bab0ae310ce0293f7eb118e92f057dfbc0c702fe.jpg

678. adamgardiner - May 16, 2013

I will add that if its in the movie I’d be thrilled if not then ok but there’s a quote Kirk uses in II “how we deal with death is equally as important as how we deal with life” I’d love it of Pine used it to tell Spock we he’s dying for his crew

679. Goo - May 16, 2013

It is my honour to post comment 674. That seems like a special number to be unread and ignored with the other 600 posts.

Sorry, but the movie was crazy amazing. Everything that is exciting about Star Trek is in this cinematic thrill.

Dissapointed that the major metropolitan theatre I went to had a 3D equipment breakdown and audience was kept 40 minutes waiting before they could finally show the movie but only in 2D.

The opening sequence was incredible and a nod to the teaser before a TV episode.

The fact that this movie is a complete reimagining of ST:TWOK is the BEST part of the film… not the worst.

OF COURSE it was going to be Khan. What hardcore fan didn’t already know this months in advance when they saw the trailer? “I’m better… at everything”.

Gorgeous movie. Nothing is perfect. If we are going to sit here and nitpick at the oddity of fairy-dust-pixels at the end of the warp effect… sure we can pick it apart… or the lacking dialogue with Nimoy that could’ve went a bit further…?….but that just shows how much we love the film and the franchise.

What other movie would be dissected like this if it wasn’t so deadly?

I can’t wait to own this film and see it in 3D at home because AMC Mississauga Courtenay Park screwed me over.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion,but it’s a shame… I feel that people here are incredibly vicious (especially considering they are alleged fans).

It’s fiction. It’s a movie. It’s not real life. Go and just enjoy it. It was really good. Spock yelling “Khan” was not cheesy or unoriginal.

It was a great re-imaging with massive amounts of respect for the source material.

People who are complaining about being unoriginal are the same people who are documented in fanzines to have blasted ST:TWOK before it’s release because it re-used a TOS villain instead of developing a new character. Shows the hypocracy and repeat of history of armchair critics.

Congratulations on producing a great flick. Thoroughly enjoyable and a great update to what is now an old early 80s film.

680. Goo - May 16, 2013

Wow. 4 comments in the time I typed mine. I was actually 678.

By the way… anyone notice Praxis destroyed about 30 years too soon?

And a clear F.U. to Shatner by making THIS Trek 2 give Sulu Captain’s training where Takei was ripped off from having the scene in ST2.

681. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

673:

I totally agree with you. The nustar trek is great, both new movies have been great. BC was great in the movie.

Khan is an Indian, no getting around that.

682. Unbel1ever - May 16, 2013

Just an observation: This movie once again failed the Bechdel test. For a movie about an enlightened future this is pretty disappointing.

683. SlumdogKhan - May 16, 2013

680…

Maybe he *is* an Indian…. just the genetically superior white British kind?

I didn’t make that up. B.Cum. was hired to play Khan, right?

684. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

And don’t kid yourself If you think the writers weren’t aware that khan was Indian. They were concerned about the whitewashing and went through with it for multiple reasons I’m sure, but lets not ignore this obvious fact – Khan is an Indian – BC was playing an Indian… Or was he… CHECK OUT THE NEW STAR TREK MOVIE IN 2015 to find out… Hint hint…

685. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

I think this whole “Khan wasn’t really Khan” talk is just an attempt by people disillusioned by the movie trying to justify trying to like it.

Forget it. Cumberbatch was Khan, whitewashed and stripped of intellectual superiority. Accept it.

686. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

God damn it josh c!!! Let me have my delusions! It’s all I have after they cast Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan Noonien Singh.

687. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

IGN Article – How Rights Issues Killed a New Star Trek TV Show
http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/05/16/how-rights-issues-killed-a-new-star-trek-tv-show

Interesting. Screw CBS on this if its true.

688. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

685 – just wait until Kruge is a romulan in the next movie

689. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

Maybe if BC had said…”my name is KHAN! Khan Reginald Copperpot”. It would have been more believable.

690. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

688 – sadly, Khan being whitewashed is actually petty low on my list of complaints about the movie

691. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

Khanplainers:

Just imagine that when he was working on his cover identity, he had some cosmetic surgery and vocal lessons. Or, he’s so intelligent that he can choose any accent he wants.

It’s fiction. Use your imagination.

692. adamgardiner - May 16, 2013

My argue ent is basically we know as in we know definitively that skin color is a genetic trait as is eye color etc etc, so why are we being so narrow in our thinking to believe that Khan could not be crossed with the genetically stronger Germanic race? Answer is we don’t, just the same as we don’t know why Khan isn’t Indian in both incarnations even Roddenberry cast a non-Indian to play him so what does that mean? Now with Khan as was explained in II “his thinking appears to be more 2D” another thing I’m sure he was counting on “Vulcans can’t lie” so why should Khan not assume that the 72 torpedoes wouldn’t have his augments in after all Vulcans are supposed to be men of their word right? How does Khan know our Vulcan is half human? We can nit pick to all hell and back and people will come up with reasons and these reasons will be shot down or resonate or any number of other things which is fine we each have a right to our own opinion as Chekov puts it “we all feel that everyone has a claim to unaliable human rights” (yes I’ve been on a movie trip including all the special features as I own all the special editions of the movies) let me put it this way, an Irish person lives and works in America, he becomes a neutralized American Citizen so what is he? Is he Irish or American? Khan lives in India so he’s Indian right? Does that nessecarily mean he has to look like other Indian people especially being genetically engineered? Now this isn’t racist at all, not at all I agree with a lot of people that if Khan is truly Indian he should be cast as an Indian but just think about that for a second, what defines our nationality? The place we were born, the place we choose to live or our appearance?

693. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#687 You joke now, but watch out–Orci’s reading, so it might happen! Except they’d want to be original, so when nuKirk kicks Rom-Kruge off the cliff, he says, “I have had enough of THIS!” instead of “I have had enough of YOU!” (which many call “homage” but educated people know as “plagiarism”)

694. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

690:

Your right, I’m being picky and unimaginative.

I just thought the nickname for BCs khan of KHAN REGINALD COPPERPOT was funny and will be using it for this iteration of Khan from now on.

So… Who’s up for a CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER movie!?! mr Orci… Please watch that episode and consider what you may be able to do with that on the big screen!

695. Jack - May 16, 2013

The cast, Abrams, the fx, music and production design made this work — but this script is one of the weakest in the series — Trek III, V, Generatiobd and Insurection all work a bit better, and they were all terrible.

This really was a case of the entire movie being revealed in the trailers. There were laughs in the theatre during the death scene, the screaming of Khan and the eventual resurrection. Star Trek 09 seems like a font of depth on comparison.

This would be a decent TV episode. It ain’t a movie. I wonder if the ancillary stuff (the game, the comics) is part of the problem. It doesn’t work particularly well as a self-contained story.

Please, if you do it again, leave the homages behind. Give us a real story.

696. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

692 – na, it will be Spock who kicks him off the cliff, after mourning the death of his unknown newly found son

697. adamgardiner - May 16, 2013

I actually posted that before I saw the Coblepot comment that actually made me smile

698. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#693 “So… Who’s up for a CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER movie!?! mr Orci… Please watch that episode and consider what you may be able to do with that on the big screen!”

YES, please! I’d love to see Harlan Ellison sue the snot out of these guys! Maybe they’d learn originality that way…though I doubt it.

699. PatrickL - May 16, 2013

@693

Great idea.

What if they had a reworked version from the ending of City on the Edge of Forever as the opening teaser. Well I’d like it anyway. Probably a good reason I don’t write for a living.

700. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#695 Good point! Hey, we’re writing the next OrciKurztmanLindelof masterpiece! (I know, the word “next” has no place in that sentence, but I’m trying to be nice.)

701. Jack - May 16, 2013

“Sort of. It’s not exactly that it is trying to heal itself and more a result of using Quantum Mechanics multiverse theory. In this theory, some universes are more probable than others. The ones that are more probable will tend to have more universes that resemble it.”

Which makes writing a lot easier. Just cut and paste / mix and match (Spock died and was reborn last time — Kirk will die and be reborn this time [except with no emotional heft])

702. NCC-73515 - May 16, 2013

boborci, it is correct that Kirk is never ‘resurrected’ by ‘magic’, because his brain is not dead yet and the platelets heal his body, right? I wish you could confirm this so people would get it, cause it seems to disturb a lot of us who think it’s just a fantasy trick, while instead it is scientifically plausible!

703. PaulB - May 16, 2013

When Bob Orci wrote the following, he lost all credibility as a writer: “We did, however, consider and conceive of the story without K in mind. If you think about it, he could’ve revealed his name was Schmuko with a slightly different back story (super criminal from Federation jail, etc…) and that Marcus used him by threatening other people he cared about (family instead of crew) and the story still stands.”

If you could switch out the character from Khan to someone else THAT EASILY, then you’ve written a crappy, generic character. Orci admits they wrote a generic character here–but I doubt he has the humility to admit it.

704. Michael Hall - May 16, 2013

@701–

With all due respect, it’s really kind of silly to anxiously wait for a Hollywood screenwriter to assure you whether something he wrote to further the plot of a summer blockbuster is scientifically plausible or not.

705. Dreadnought - May 16, 2013

702:

Jebus… Hitting hard… And true.

706. Mcflycat - May 16, 2013

703:

It’s that kind of apathy that’s keeping us from holding moviemakers accountable for why we give them our hard earned money.

707. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

702 – absolutely. It shows no respect for the character of Khan and what made him unique. How can you shoehorn a unique character into a template? Which is exactly what he admits to doing there

708. Phil - May 16, 2013

@701. From what I’ve seen, this is science fantasy. If you want plausible, head over to the NASA website….

709. Jim Nightshade - May 16, 2013

I ran thru the whol thing twice to be sure if my post is in here I sure cant find it…and I really wanted Bob n everybody to see it too

710. Dave - May 16, 2013

@boborci

What Karen said.

I think the movie speaks for itself – I enjoyed it on all levels. The combination of the real world sets, excellent effects and well done 3D made it an especially immersive experience.

I especially appreciated the character arcs, I think a weakness of TOS was the characters kind of got frozen in place in a formula in the second season, with regular descent into self parody in the third. (Then again, they had to average an hour of output every two weeks, where as you guys….)

In terms of objections to parallels with changes – a deeply ingrained feature of Trek is parallel but different time lines – from City on the Edge of Forever, Mirror Universe and any number of TNG episodes. Even when things diverge common things are driven by the river of time, fate or whatever. And don’t get me started on Roman planets, Nazi planets, Gangster planets! Logically, once a major diverging event occurs, one would think that things would continue to become more radically different, yet in most of the parallel universes / timelines (is there a difference?) we say people with the same names, physical appearance, etc. Doesn’t really make sense, but neither do transporters (or musicals).

I enjoyed the movie immensely.

711. Christopher Roberts - May 16, 2013

I’m afraid as awesome as Cumberbatch was, it would’ve made much more sense to me if he’d been Joachim. Or a more junior survivor from the Botany Bay.

I struggle with Khan hiding his name, or working for anybody.

It’s entirely reasonable for one of his subordinates to have been awoken, and blackmailed by Section 31 to do their bidding. Then pretty much go to the lengths John Harrison does to protect his family and rescue Khan from the clutches of Admiral Marcus. There would’ve been a kind of parallel with Kirk having lost his father and the Harrison figure coming close to losing his.

Other than that, I did like this movie. Loved the way the camera linger more on the warp effect of the Enterprise, leaving a trail behind her. Thought the idea behind reversing the iconic scene from TWOK from being Spock to Kirk was a sound idea. It could’ve done with shouting out his name though. Toe-curling and it prompted laughter at the screening.

712. Ahmed - May 16, 2013

I watched it today & I was really pissed off. We waited 4 years to see this ??

A crappy copy of the Wrath of Khan that show complete disrespect to the source material & lack of understanding about the character.

The scene where Spock screamed “KHAAAAAN” was so ridiculous that I was almost laughing at this absurdity.

What a wasted opportunity.

713. NCC-73515 - May 16, 2013

707 Phil
What exactly is impossible about it? What makes it fantasy?

714. pauln6 - May 16, 2013

@ 277 It’s using my imagination that leads me spot all the nitpicks. I need to stop using my imagination!

715. Robman007 - May 16, 2013

I love these Internet tough guys. If you think this stuff sucks so bad, get outta grandma’s basement and write your own Trek. The Internet tough guy routine is old

716. Navy - May 16, 2013

I went last night, got the poster(Thank you!).

It was a good movie. There are a number of things I could pick at, but over all it was enjoyable and I will go see it again.

Thanks again for a good movie, my wife and I enjoyed it and had a nice evening out.

717. Mr. Anonymous - May 16, 2013

@666

Agreed!

718. PaulB - May 16, 2013

#715 Then stop using the Internet tough guy routine. (“Get outta grandma’s basement…” says Internet tough guy Robman007.)

And stop the tired old “write your own” crap. You don’t have to be a gourmet chef to know that a meal sucks, nor do you need to be able to write a Trek film to know the things that sucked about this one.

Many of us criticize in the hope that Orci and co. might actually care about what the audience thinks. After all, we’ve forked over our cash in exchange for their product, only to be given a tired quote-fest of TWOK and a retread of half of Trek’09, so I think we’re entitled to gripe a bit.

Don’t like it? Ignore these posts.

719. Torlek Chang - May 16, 2013

#4 The short answer to most of your questions is that J.J. is a poor movie maker. As for the script? Poorly also, but I don’t know why? I really loved Jack of all Trades, seriously. Close only counts in horseshoes. I do understand to go wide audience one need do certain things in ones movie, but…I guess it’s too late, you got paid for this one, just call me when your ready to talk about STiD3, I’ll help you write a better one.
P.S. Are they really going to let him fudge up Star Wars? I don’t want my R2d2 unit lookin’ like something he found in the beer factory.

720. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

715 –

OK, Garth of Izar get injured and nursed back to health by the people of Antos IV, but this time, for some reason (better training after the initial Nero incident, whatever), he doesn’t go insane.

After finding out about his powers, Section 31 recruits him, using him and his powers for espionage, etc. Garth also eventually learns to use his power to enhance himself mentally and physically as well.

Fearing that Garth was becoming too powerful, Admiral Marcus decides that he should be eliminated, but fails, turning Garth against Starfleet. Proceed with Into Darkness with Garth of Izar in Khan’s place, basically, minus the idiotic engineering scene, etc.

721. gingerly - May 16, 2013

@4 Mr. Dirty Harry already said everything I was thinking, except for this… Because I’m lazy I’m simply going to cut-n-paste from another thread:

*sigh*

Good movie. :)

Loved that pretty much all of my suggestions were followed, but I know you guys are going to have issues with the casting of Khan for many years to come, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

No shade on Cumby… He’s an amazing actor, but much like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s the unnecessary whitewashing will tarnish the legacy of an otherwise good movie.

Also, it would’ve been nice to have a totally original plot. I’m not a fan of rehashing…but I was into it throughout and I had fun.

Just PLEASE give us something totally new next time.

It also would have been nice to see Spock initiate some affection towards Uhura, luckily, I also read comics. ;)

722. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

if there is one thing i “don’t like” about STID then it is Pikes death.
I know it was necessary for the story but still….:-(

…RESURRECT HIM IN THE NEXT MOVIE!!!:-D…….not a joke DO IT!

however the scene was pretty good! great acting from bruce and chris!

723. Ahmed - May 16, 2013

718. PaulB – May

“Many of us criticize in the hope that Orci and co. might actually care about what the audience thinks. After all, we’ve forked over our cash in exchange for their product, only to be given a tired quote-fest of TWOK and a retread of half of Trek’09, so I think we’re entitled to gripe a bit.”

Agreed. I was hopping the movie will be as good as they kept telling us. That we will get a new EPIC story as they said, only to have this poor imitation of TWOK :(

724. Sxottlan - May 16, 2013

I’m a little torn. I was enjoying it up until the third act. It played like fan-fiction; an amalgam of TWOK mixed with a little TUC.

725. Spocks Beard - May 16, 2013

I just saw Into Darkness. I had a few minor gripes here and there, but wow, what a terrific film. I really enjoyed it.

726. barney - May 16, 2013

721. gingerly – May 16, 2013

Didnt spock give some kind of vague love speech to uhura on their way to the Klingon homeworld about how he feels or care. kirk tells spock that it is not exactly a love song.

Gosh…I love me some james t kirk.

there is so much angst with spock/uhura…I say bring on kirk/carol.

727. Phil - May 16, 2013

@713. Well, to keep it short, cells die in a body all the time, and in a healthy living creature it replaces them. As we age, that rate of replacement slows, and we eventually die. This is why we eat and drink, the body takes in raw material replace what is used up. We can genetically enhance material now, there is no evidence to suggest that simple exposure of dead matter to this enhanced material restores life. For what has been suggested in this movie to actually work, this blood would need to be able to seek out the damaged cells, reanimate them, or reorganize it’s own structure to duplicate the destroyed material. They would also need to reproduce themselves. It would be one thing if you were just replacing a few cells or an organ, but a body that has been irradiated has basically been cooked. That’s asking a hell of a lot from a tube of blood, regardless of it’s source.

Well, so much for keeping it short. Sorry.

728. gavabot - May 16, 2013

Be careful people…who knows…they might take all this griping about mirroring elements from TWoK and not have *ANY* cool trek references in the next one.

729. Phil - May 16, 2013

@727. So, in conclusion. Science Fantasy. As I’ve mentioned so many times before, enjoy the show. Just don’t look to close….the Mona Lisa is a wonderful piece of art, but up close it’s nothing but brush strokes.

730. Billiam - May 16, 2013

Not warming up to Cumberbatch as Khan yet..I’ll be nice, let me sleep on it. Why is the warp core the Death Star’s main reactor? Why did they quote TWOK almost line for line in the engine room? I swear I heard a f$%^ing tie fighter during the Bird of Prey scene. Copying other movies in style and literally line for line in dialogue…. took me out of the movie at times. I guess it’s a bad thing to be such a huge fan of science fiction.

Spock screaming Khan was corny for about 2 seconds until the ear deafening scene of Vengeance screaming by, completely drowning out Spock’s agony.

But I’m not saying it wasn’t an enjoyable movie. I think it’s a great story about friendship, family, morals and terrorism. I enjoyed the space jump scene, Pike metaphorically slapping Kirk in the face by demoting him, Sulu taking command… and the original Trek theme at the end of the movie.

Still not as good as First Contact. Give Frakes the same budget… I think these movies would tank in comparison. Just my opinion! Go see it!

731. bringbackkirkprime - May 16, 2013

BEST MOVIE EVER!

732. Trekker5 - May 16, 2013

Hi Aurore! :) How are you these days?

733. NCC-73515 - May 16, 2013

727 Phil
You are assuming that Kirk was dead. His brain was kept alive, however.

“Platelet gel in cutaneous radiation dermatitis.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23150187

“Blood-derived biomaterials and platelet growth factors in regenerative medicine.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23434399

“Platelet-rich plasma: a promising product for treatment of peripheral nerve regeneration after nerve injury.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21244302

I enjoy discussing such details, especially if viewers’ opinions of the movie depend on them ;)

734. Southern Trek - May 16, 2013

Well, I’m a lifelong Star Trek fan, and a young one (late 20′s) who even loves TOS the best. Star Trek 2009 was great in my opinion in bringing back the Trifecta of Star Trek: Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

And then I saw Star Trek: Into Darkness….

And am now left to wonder why it took four years for a bad “Space Seed” and TWOK remake? The actors capture the the spirit of the characters they are portraying but the writing is just terrible. The movie left me exactly how I felt after watching Lost: ripped off with a predictable ending after months of denying that was how it would play out.

Reading other Trek fans ideas on the movie was frankly more entertaining than Star Trek: Into Darkness. I’m glad JJ Abrams won’t be back for the next movie. I hope he takes the rest of his crew with him.

735. Red Dead Ryan - May 16, 2013

I just saw the movie. I thought it was great. A lot of fun, and quite a ride.

I thought the main cast, in particular, Chris Pine Zachary Quinto, Karl Urban and John Cho were great. The action was frenetic, and Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan was a real menace.

The nice nods to previous Treks were fun as well. The Phoenix, and the NX-01.

I believe I also spotted a Kazon warship-like shuttle during the final part of the movie where Spock is chasing Khan in San Francisco.

My only beef was that I wasn’t surprised by anything in the movie. Many of us had predicted it was going to be Khan for the past couple of years.

736. gavabot - May 16, 2013

Not to keep chiming in on the Khan debate, but I really felt that as great as Cumberbatch’s performance was, he didn’t really channel the mannerisms of Khan or the intellectual superiority.

Even if you argue it’s a reinterpretation, it’s kind of confusing considering how much care went into casting the crew of the Enterprise. All of those people captured the essence of their respected characters.

Khan is meant to have an established personality that should’ve at least been revealed when he dropped his guise in the brig.

As an indian person myself, it was disappointing that they couldn’t even have chosen a decent indian actor. It’s not like it’s the 60s where their only option was latino peoples. There are SO many great indian actors out there that could’ve really added something original (and true) to this character.

As for the argument of it being insensitive to cast a brown person as a terrorist, I totally disagree. First of all he’s from Punjab and is Sikh. That has no connection to the modern image of the “islamic middle-eastern terrorist”. This reasoning reminds of me of when they tried to change the title of “The Two Towers” because it was so close to 9/11.

If you guys want to see a really good depiction of what this role done right, check out Enterprise episodes 4-6 in season 4. The leader of the augments in those episodes was more Khan than what we’ve seen in ITD.

737. geodesic17 - May 16, 2013

I can’t wait to see it again. I thought I saw the Deathstar schematic on a terminal on the Vengeance. I’ll have to take a closer look next time around.

738. Coastie - May 16, 2013

I finally saw it. I enjoyed it, I’d say 3.5 out of 5 stars. It felt like a Star Trek movie and not a parody of Star Trek that the last film felt like. This is more to Trek as Batman Begins is to Batman than Batman and Robin was. This was more Master and Commander and less Pirates of the Caribbean (well, barely more). I’d say this ranks 3rd or 4th all time favorite Trek movies (Behind 2, 6, and Galaxy Quest — j/k… 4).

One word describes my overall feeling though – rushed.

JJ – Yo … RELAX. We’re not all ADD here (no offense to those of you who are actually ADD). You can cool it with the rushed scenes, the rushed space battles. Here’s some advice — when you think about showing us a shot and then cutting it right away — hold it, just go against all your urges for the quick cuts and hold that shot for like another second or two. Please?

But then while I felt like the movie was rushed at certain points, it was dragged out at others. They butchered the radiation room scene with too much dialogue — at that scene less would have been more, felt a little over the top, hammy, and overly wordy. .

Those are my only real gripes about the movie. Otherwise, I enjoyed it.

Oh, and I was PRAYING for a refit Enterprise at the end without those horrible bulbous phallus too close together cross eyed looking nacelles, but instead they only chose to go with ruining the impulse engines – one of my favorite parts of the new design ship, so now it looks worse than ever. Oh well.

739. Red Dead Ryan - May 16, 2013

Also, it was pretty obvious from a couple of months ago that Pike was going to get killed off in this movie.

Anyway, I think that Chris Pine’s Kirk is slowly starting to resemble the original version portrayed by William Shatner. Pine really is a good actor, and I think Buzz Cagney would have to agree.

I can’t wait for the third movie. It’s only a matter of time before we all start guessing who the villain is going to be….

:-)

740. gingerly - May 16, 2013

@726

By affection, I mean sex.

The Vulcan nerve pinch…

Uhura’s oral (I know it’s aural) sensitivity…

741. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

did anyone notice the whole “oh, they can’t catch us, we’re at warp” drama? It didn’t last very long, but even then I was sitting there like “really? REALLY?”

742. BLFSisko - May 16, 2013

I REALLY don´t know why most of you have such big problems about Khan. For me this movie is a fantastic “Recreation” of a fanastic original. I loved the “mirrored” scene, and yes, I loved Spock screaming “KHAAAAN” The only reason I prefer TWOK is because it has a stronger ending, STID ended a little bit to fast and “easy”, it could have been somewhat bigger. For me, STID is in the TOP 3 of BEST STAR TREK FILMS ever.

743. gavabot - May 16, 2013

@742 what are the other two?

744. Newman - May 16, 2013

Bob Orci if you’re reading this, I just watched Into Darkness and it blew my mind. Thank you. Kudos to you and the team.

So….War with the Klingons in the next film?

745. LLAP - May 16, 2013

I was hoping for more than a TWOK remake, but it was a pretty good job of a remake. I certainly have my share of criticisms, many of which have been expressed above, but I got my money’s worth from the movie.

746. BLFSisko - May 16, 2013

@743 TWOK (it has to be because I find it a bit better than Into Darkness, as I said) and TUC

747. samantha - May 16, 2013

this is for # 7.
- When Kirk violates the prime directive by revealing the Enterprise, everyone ask him/herself… how did he NOT violate the prime directive when he took her UNDER water
=when i saw this i just kinda figured that they put the ship under water far away from the aliens visibility and then moved it like a submarine to reach them

- Why does Starfleet hold that emergency meeting in a conference room on the top of the skyskraper where instead they should go to a save bunker?
=i thought this was odd too but then later i figured it was because Alexander Marcus wanted someone in star fleet to die so he had a reason to send someone after khan

- Why doesn’t starfleet use a similar transwarp transporter to get their men on Kronos?
=i sorry to say i’m not geeky enough to know what that means

- What happens to the starbase when Vengence attacks the Enterprise?
=again i’m to stupid to understand that

- Why doesn’t McCoy use the blood of one of the 72 augments on board to revive Kirk? Answer: No hunt for Khan on Earth.
=i think that for their blood to have worked on kirk, mccoy would have needed to wake one of them and he didn’t wanna do that. also khan would have been hunted on earth anyway, he’s a criminal

- Where are Starfleet security officers on Earth, or is Spock the only Starfleet personal left?
=remember when it is said that no one could survive that kind of crash onto san francisco? well i just thought that everyone else in star fleet thought that too, so they started concentrating on helping victims. and i thought that the enterprise didn’t tell the rest off star fleet either because they couldn’t or just because Spock wanted to get khan himself (it would normaly be unlike him, but his best friend had just died)and told them not to notify anyone else. of course the only person that dared to disobey him was uhura

748. Phil - May 16, 2013

@733. As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve not seen the movie yet. Have read enough spoilers to have a general idea what is going on, though.

I’m familiar with the research – all of which require the cultivation of cells specific to the injured material, and a generally functioning body to place them in. Not having seen the movie, I don’t know if an actual time of death or removal from fife support is called, if the body is in stasis, which would make sense if they were working to stave off brain death, or if they just stuck him in the morgue. Frozen solid is dead. And if irradiated, thoroughly roasted and highly toxic. This may fly if this were an X-Men movie, but in real life radiation poisoning will still be something to avoid in the 23rd century, too. Even if the brain were alive in the corpse, just exposing it to the blood of someone who is genetically modified isn’t enough. The body it’s being injected into has to have the ability to distribute it, and maintain an environment for it to continue to live and do it’s work. A bit hard to do, when you are well done and dead.

Sorry, this one is square in the fantasy category.

749. Ashley - May 16, 2013

I just saw the movie and #4 pretty much summed up my thoughts on it. I felt like it was mostly plot stringing along action scenes and lil sprinklings of character development. I understand some parts were done as an homage but really I just rolled my eyes at a lot of it. Not just the ‘TWOK reactor rehash’ but also the emphasis put on Sulu in command and some other parts.

I also felt that Khan, Carol, and Chekov were very underutilized. I read that each character would have their moment to shine. Chekov slid across the floor and messed with some controls while Kirk did the ‘heavy lifting’ so to speak. Was that it? Was that his moment? Otherwise he was doing a poor job playing engineer. I hope he at least gets more screen-time in the next film.

Anyway, I just really feel like this film lacked depth. It really did feel like a lot of ideas and plot points strung together. I tried explaining the plot of the previous movie to my mom since she hadn’t seen it and there was enough going on where it took a lil while. This one? ‘Some Starfleet Admiral wants to start a war with the Klingons and enlists Khan to help him out.’ That’s it, that’s the majority of the plot, and even that feels very contrived. Overall my feelings are mixed. I want to like the movie, and I do like things about it, but it wasn’t an overwhelmingly positive experience to me. It was a good action film, that’s about it.

Some griping. What’s with all the torpedo launchers on the side of the ship?? Are they converted airlocks? If so why are there so many damn airlocks?! Misaligned…injector? Kick it into place, it’ll work fine. >..<

Bob Orci, seriously if you need help with treknology and starship design, I am more than willing to correspond with you and the film crew. Free of charge, no lie. I'd just rather you get things right or at least keep things within reason, especially if this stuff is driving the plot…

750. Coastie - May 16, 2013

Oh and one more thing – to the writers who read this …

I know that Starfleet isn’t today’s military, but you do not address “acting captains” as “Captain” and they do not address themselves as “Captain.”

Just because you a momentarily placed in command of a ship doesn’t make you “Captain.” You retain your current rank. Thanks.

751. Adm. Gallagher, 1st Armada, STO - May 16, 2013

Adm. G.: Did you get the license off that starship? It had the word “MACK ” emblazoned across the deflector. My brain and heart got scrambled… JJ, you green hearted son of a…. Dammit. Dammit! (expletives) What the frack was that? Where the heck’s my uniform?
Doc. Holiday: Revenge…
Adm. G.: For what???
Doc. Holiday: For bein’ born…
Adm. G.: Doc, if you see JJ, tell him to email my heart and brains back to me tonite! I need them for my duty shift tomorrow! Holy Hannah! BRAVO JJ, I am in a state of actual physical shock right now… Excellent work on the Neural Neutralizer that you created, w/ the help of Spock’s Brain no doubt…
Random token Orion chick: BRAIN! BRAIN! BRAIN! What is BRAIN?!
Adm. G.: Seriously, what the hell just happened? What the Hell did I just watch? Almost 4 decades of life, and I am reduced to Jello in the theater. Doc, is it serious?
Doc. Holiday: JJTrek? Extremely serious. It starts with a slight fever and
dryness of the throat. When the film penetrates the
red blood cells, the victim becomes dizzy, begins to
experience an itchy rash, then the poison goes to work
on the central nervous system, severe muscle spasms,
followed by the inevitable grueling. At this point,
the entire digestive system collapses accompanied by
uncontrollable flatulence. Until finally, the poor bastard is reduced to a
quivering wasted piece of jelly. (Credit: Airplane!)
Adm. G.: Oh my God. I’m back. I’m home, in the 80′s. All the time, it was… We finally really did it. You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell! (Credit: PotA)

Seriously, outstanding, great movie! It completely tore me apart… I feel like I was hit by a Mack truck, then won the lottery and a date w/ a supermodel… Umm, thank you? I think?

752. Ashley - May 16, 2013

Almost forgot, and wish I had… Of all the changes that could have been made to the refitted Enterprise, WHY THE IMPULSE ENGINES?? They are butt ugly now, and just when I was finally starting to really appreciate the redesign of the ship, which I have defended in the past.

I hope I was just hallucinating when I saw the difference. >.<

753. Scott Umsteadt - May 16, 2013

Have any of you read the Nitpickers Guide to Original Trek and/or the Next Generation? No episode or any movie of any incarnation was without some discrepancies. Lay off!! They did a fantastic job!!

754. Aix - May 16, 2013

Lines/Dialogue that made me cringe
1. You should have let me sleep!!!
2. Khaaaaaaan!
3. My name is Khan!
4. “Scotty” “Khan”, “Khan” “Scotty”

Can you guys imagine Del Toro saying Khan’s lines? Shatner-level hammy-ness!
Still, no matter how great Cumberbatch’s delivery/voice was those lines are… ick!

755. Phil - May 16, 2013

New impulse engines?? Vectored, I hope…

756. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

I am the only one noticing that sulu says ” we are 237000km from earth” and we see them very near to the moon. but the distance from Earth to the moon is 384.400 km.

so there you have an error lol

757. Danpaine - May 16, 2013

Overall, I thought it a very enjoyable tribute film. Lots of great nods to the past and classic Trek moments in there. Like many others, no idea why Harrison had to be Khan – no need for it. And while BC played a great villain, that was no Khan. Peter Weller’s Admiral was really well done.

- The ‘Khan scream’ was indeed cringe-worthy. Unnecessary and almost funny.
– Prime Spock’s cameo was a bad shoehorn. And that’s a shame, a waste.
– That is one fugly Bird Of Prey. Very cool Klingons, though.
– I don’t think any comparisons to WOK are necessary. That film’s place in Trek history is safe.

So, that’s why I call it a good Tribute film. Original? No. Deep? No. Fun? Absolutely. Saw it in 3D last night, and will catch it again tomorrow night in 2D, then I’ll buy the DVD to add to my Trek collection.

I’m sure it’ll make a ton of cash. Frankly, I’m thrilled Trek is as old as I am and still going strong. Fine job, Mr. Orci & Co.!

758. JohnRambo - May 16, 2013

*Am i*

759. kietero - May 16, 2013

I’m not certain I can gush over this movie like I thought I was going to. I read the spoilers, the same as I did for every Trek movie in the internet age, but always gave it a chance on screen to impress me. I’ve been a Star Trek fan for a long, long time. I’ve supported all on-screen works, professional and fan-made. I’ve even delved into fanfiction myself. These are all characters I care about, love and cherish as though they were close friends, in all incarnations of Trek. After reading the spoilers, Star Trek Into Darkness had two challenges, in my eyes, to answer. 1: How can you include a villain that the majority of the fans didn’t want touched in the first place and still be epic? 2: How can you NOT make this movie a blatant ripoff of The Wrath of Khan?

The production team, the actors, the score, everything was rock-solid, except for the script. I won’t get into the particulars of this film, but review it as a whole entity instead of nitpicking at everything I found wrong, or right for that matter, with this film.

I loved, absolutely loved, the fact that events in the first half of the film confirm that the comics are, indeed, canon. Even though, right on these boards, @boborci has been shaky on this very subject, a brief line of onscreen dialog, coupled with a certain but brief character interaction, loops everything together nicely. Almost the opposite could be said about the last “absolutely canon” reference that came from the recent video game failure, where McCoy tells Carol Marcus that he delivered Gorn babies via c-section.

The game indicated that those events were the Federation’s first contact with the Gorn. Prior to those events, in game, McCoy had no knowledge of them. I don’t think it’s bad writing on the movie’s script, this is just an issue of what we can consider good back-story as to “how did we get here?” and what we can dismiss.

So, basically, a “thank you” is in order to @boborci and his team for acknowledging this issue once-and-for-all.

So, back to the challenges I laid out in the first paragraph. I will answer them both by saying this: the movie actually had promise as a good stand-alone film. I agree with @boborci that anyone could’ve been put in John Harrison’s place and with some slight tweaking, the story would’ve worked out. I think that could’ve been a more logical choice than where Mr. Orci and his team went, instead.

Where did STiD go wrong? Right from the point where Benedict Cumberbatch, in a blatant overacting, revealed, “My name… is….KHAN!”

Kirk’s follow-up, which basically asked Khan what the audience, both fans and regular moviegoers alike, were both thinking: why should we care about you? To tell the truth, I probably would’ve just left his name as “John Harrison,” in quotes, never knowing his real name (nor caring to), and just make him a super bad-ass, like he was until we realized who he really was. That’s just me, and that’s not what we got.

From that reveal-onward, the movie got a little bit painful at times. Carol Marcus was fantastic, and I hope we get her back in Star Trek III (or XIII), maybe plus-one (someone mentioned that they would like to see David, and I agree with that). I don’t know what Bob Orci’s team has in store for ST13, but I’m looking forward to it.

Sidetracked.

Back to point: everything painfully mirrored TWOK. The transition was so jarring to me that it was as though we stopped watching INTO DARKNESS and started watching WRATH OF THE SPACE SEED Remake. More importantly, Khan’s rage felt empty. In TWOK, there was a certain satisfaction that Khan had on his face with each impact he made on the Enterprise, with each blow he dealt Kirk. In STiD, Khan had perfect reason to rage (the supposed death of his crew, so he thought). Yet when he ditched his ship into downtown San Francisco, there was no satisfaction on his face. Montalban’s Khan would’ve laughed the whole way down. Cumberbatch’s Khan was just… not Khan.

Into Darkness wasn’t a really a great movie – it was spectacular in certain ways, failed miserably in others. But beyond that, we got something we’d been wanting for a long time: a STAR TREK MOVIE! In spite of the failed attempts at homage, which turned into what seemed like ripoffs, we did get a STAR TREK film, at its core! The one thing we get most of all, in every Trek movie,whether it was a success or a complete catastrophe, is a sense of family. Kirk risking everything for Spock, the officer giving his life in order to save his daughter, Kirk and Spock emotional over Pike’s fate, Carol verse her father, and the central Kirk’s family verses Khan’s. How these interacted, interplayed, and all came together was at the heart of this film and this is what made me enjoy it, in spite of how I feel about the technical aspects of it.

Since the 1960s, STAR TREK, in all of its forms, is about how we deal with life in the future. I believe there was a subtle commentary on the familiar things we see in the city shots of London and San Francisco in the backdrop of this movie. Things still appear 21st Century, yet clearly seen that we’re in the 23rd. Regardless of the era in which the stories are being told, the underlying modern-day problems of life, love, belief and family are all ever present. The issues are out in the open for all to see, and don’t require a huge amount of philosophical debate to TRY to figure out what the writers were trying to convey. The fact that this is everything that makes STAR TREK what it is, and we got this delivered, piping hot from the store, made INTO DARKNESS work.

I do believe I will share in the frustration of the miscasting of Benedict Cumberbatch, and I pray and hope that @boborci and his team work with Mike Johnson on the comic front to give us an explanation as to why Khan (who is supposed to be a Sikhi) went from Hispanic to wasp-white and British. One stand alone issue will suffice, and yes believe it or not, the fans WILL appreciate this.

Over all, I give STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS a 3.5 out of a possible 5, trailing what I felt about ST09 by one whole point.

Thank you, Bad Robot, for giving us a STAR TREK movie. Your efforts are appreciated, no matter how I felt about this film. I’m still on board with your universal vision of TREK, even if STiD didn’t live up to its full potential.

760. Bob Dahlia - May 16, 2013

I don’t know why you guys are beating-up the writers. Of course there were similarities with some of what came before. Remember JJ’s ‘Star Trek’ is an alternate time-line/reality. Just because it’s an alternate reality doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be void of creativity. STID’s creativity outweigh the similarities.

761. kietero - May 16, 2013

I stand corrected… it was a direct game reference McCoy made. I apologize. Too bad I can’t edit…

762. michael - May 16, 2013

@boborci:
I have been a trek fan since I was 5. (I am 25)
Grew up on classic TOS. I think you all have done a FANTASTIC job re-creating my favorite characters.
Gotta say, TWOK has always been my hands down favorite; the one I could go back and watch over and over again. I think this one will be that way too!!
2009 Trek made me excited about the future of Trek. This one is one I could easily go to see in theaters multiple times.
Can’t tell you and your team enough how much I loved this film! Keep ‘em coming!

763. TheSTN - May 16, 2013

I’m not going to go into a spoiler filled review nor will I pick out the fly poop from the pepper. All I will say is this:

1) When I go the movies I want to be entertained and kept on the edge of my seat – STID delivers big time.

2) I am and always will be a ST fan – no matter what show, what movie or what timeline – some are better than others but all have equal merit. I’m not that big a stickler on cannon.

3) As for STID – I love the winks/nods given to things that happened in the past and for taking some of the elements and re-using them while keeping them fresh/new/engaging.

I salute the entire crew of the movie from the writers, director, stars and all of the people involved – you have delivered a VERY enjoyable STAR TREK movie.

Thank you for that…

764. Jeff - May 16, 2013

If it weren’t for Alice and Benedict the movie could have been worse. Both were great as Marcus and Kahn. Does Dr. Marcus become pregnant with David through Kirk, or in the alternate reality – Chekov. Now that Kahn is a sleep again, does he come back in another movie? Let’s redo T.W.O.K maybe no one will notice. As I left the theater the main gripe of those who were there is no more originality in Hollywood anymore. When Jaws came out how many rip off copies were there? Bears and fish? Die Hard and of all its clones. This is why I don’t go movies hardly anymore. Over priced tickets and popcorn for rehashes.

765. The dude - May 16, 2013

To everyone who has something bad to say about this film because ‘its different and doesn’t follow cannon’ or it doesn’t follow ‘the dream’
Hmmm, is star trek about exploring strange new worlds?
Hmmmm, a time change….khan is back, star fleet is corrupt, Carol Marcus has a british accent! Hmmm that’s strange
Woe, huge federation ship, ships firing at warp speed, Kirk dies (in a familiar seen) but isn’t it in essence new?
So…how then is not full filling the original dream? #dontjudge #tryanddobetter #thisislikeoneofthebestfilms

@ boborci
Thank you for spending so much time on this film, I loved in immensely and I am going to watch it again this weekend, I am even going to school tomorrow in full star fleet costume. Thanks again for the awesome film.
p.s (I am writing a very positive review for it in my school newspaper)

766. planetaryexile - May 16, 2013

@boborci
I really enjoyed the film. It was great. I want to hone in on one thing that had me grinning from ear to ear. I loved the opening. It was a wonderful, fun mini-episode. I wanted the whole 45 minutes. So, let me be blunt. Get the television show underway! Whatever it is that you have in mind…make it so! I haven’t enjoyed a K/O production this much since the glory days of Alias. Please bring it back to the small screen!

767. Legend of Link - May 16, 2013

I went last night and got my sweet poster. I came back feeling very satisfied. Brilliantly acted and wonderfully directed, though possibly rushed a bit. Overall, it was a fantastic experience, and I plan to go again very soon. Can’t wait for the third. Bring it on, guys! But, please, for the love of God, do not wait another four years.

768. Dave - May 16, 2013

First?

769. horatio - May 16, 2013

#167

I believe the credits to Chris Hemsworth and Jennifer Morrison was included because of scene where Kirk is about to wake up…some sort of quick flashback/ life flashing before your eyes thing where you here/sort of see the birth scene.

770. Shane - May 16, 2013

@ BobOrci,
Thank you! Thank You! Thank You! What a great movie!
I teared up, I laughed, I was in awe, I was entertained.
I don’t get these supposed fans crying about Tribbles, Transwarp Transporters, Khan screams, Prime Spock cameo, radiation deaths, etc. For gods sake loosen up, relax and get a life… ITS A MOVIE!

I grew up with Star Trek in all its various forms and its still has been and will always be STAR TREK. Especially This latest ride. This movie made me forget my troubles for 2 hours and I loved it.

I would love the next installment to contain the following:
- Klingons
- The Great Barrier (and what could be behind it)
- Gary Mitchell

Mr. Orci thank you again! God Bless you!

771. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2013

@685. Josh C.,
“Forget it. Cumberbatch was Khan, whitewashed and stripped of intellectual superiority. Accept it.”

Why? The movie isn’t solid on this point. Nobody identifies Harrison as “Khan NOONIEN SINGH”, NuSpock doesn’t show us a nifty picture of Khan from the 1990s confirming they are the same person as Prime Spock did in Space Seed. Prime Spock does not see a picture of Harrison to confirm they are the same person. We actually only have Harrison’s word on it, and he hasn’t been known to lie to anybody now has he? If I didn’t know better, I would say the filmmakers are intentionally avoiding khan-firming Harrison’s identity, just like they avoid any discussion of his appearance. Given the fact Prime Spock directly contradicted the historical facts presented in Space Seed, I’d say there’s a good possibility that Harrison might not be Khan after all.

772. Bell - May 16, 2013

So glad to see this movie focus more on the Kirk/Spock relationship. The banter and realization of what they mean to each other was fantastic! Sulu in the captains chair? Awesome. Scotty standing up to Kirk? Awesome. Uhura speaking/stabbing Klingons? Lol awesome. I’m also glad to see less of the Spock and Uhura relationship too. Never liked that. If its gonna stay around this minimal attention to it is perfect. Let them kick ass on their own. And I really could have done without Uhura bickering at Spock on a VERY serious mission. Unprofessional. Uhura is better than that. Kirk was right, it really wasn’t a good time.

Bones got some screen time, which is awesome, but lay off the metaphors with him. He’s not some goofy comic relief. I know the writers have all but given up on him being in the triumvirate but the actor and the character deserve better. Yes he came up with the idea to save Kirk, but the tribble thing was weak and an easy out. I’d like to see him do some real awesome action stuff. To be honest, I’m kinda pissed the writers made it Uhura who went down at the end to warn Spock not to kill Khan. It could have been a great moment for Bones who, while never really one for action, goes down anyway because this is his best friend damnit and he needs to warn Spock. It would have been a nice chance for him to shine as Uhura already had hers on Kronos.

Also, while I think using Khan was kinda lazy, I though Cumberbatch was phenomenal so I can be too mad.

All in all, better than ST09? Yes. Better than TWOK? No.

773. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

771 – from this logic, we can’t know Kirk is Kirk because it’s theoretically possible that at some point in the past a changling impostor took his place and no one noticed. At some point one has to accept that people are who they say they are

Presumably Admiral Marcus did enough research on him to know that he is who he is back when he was first woken up.

774. Bell - May 16, 2013

Also wasn’t expecting to, but I thought Alice Eve was great! I hope they don’t make her Kirks girlfriend though, and I’m aware I might be in the minority thinking that. I just wanna see a chick be strong and kickass without a man she’s always running after or worried about (I’m looking at you Uhura). I’d like to see more Carol. How smart and beautiful was she?!

But just writing off Chapel like that? One of Kirks many forgettable conquests? Hated it.

775. Dude Against Telephoto Paparrazi - May 16, 2013

Well, Mr. Orci…………….I went to see it today. My friend, who’s a manager at the local theatre, let me in for free. He knew how pissed off I was and he wanted me to see it and he knew I wasn’t gonna pay for it.

First: OK as an action film. As a Star Trek film? Nope. No matter how many Harry Mudd or Nurse Chapel or Tribble references that are in there. The Fx? Well done. Acting? Top notch. The way the advertising and promoting of the film was handled? Dropped the ball, big time.

As I’ve stated before, the fact that you and your team DID lie to the fans (of which I’m one) is very, very uncool. Hell, Quinto just said about a week back, refereing to the film opening “Good! We don’t have to lie anymore!” I would hope that in the future you and your friends in the industry would just learn to say “no comment” or something of that nature. Don’t lie. I’m not the only one who feels this way.

George Lucas, Spielberg, Cameron and other great film makers were an influence on us all, especially film makers of today, and I don’t recall any of them just bald-faced lying about anything to try and hide their story.

Next time just say “no comment’ or count holes in the ceiling. Lest, some young fan will begin to think “hey, it’s OK to lie about things! The filming crew of the new Star Trek movie did it! It must be OK to do that!”

Just like the words by Jeremy Northam in the flick ‘Emma’…”Bad form, Emma….bad form”.

776. 750 Mang - May 16, 2013

Caught it at the Paramount lot last night. Nice theatre. Okay, I will start with what I liked.

The dialogue was much better in this movie. No “either they’re going down or you are.” That was nice. Witty banter came back to Trek. Good.

I still like the cast. Chris Pine is great as Kirk. Does his own thing, but remains true to the character.

It looked great, even in 3D, which I don’t dig.

The Engine Room wasn’t a brewery.

And that’s about it.

What I thought was poor.

The plot at best was incomprehensible and at worst just silly.

Cumberbatch is horribly miscast as Khan. He’s a fine actor, but he’s not Khan. And to that point he wasn’t written as Khan. Where were Khan’s literary illusions to Melville or Milton. This villian could have been anyone. He could have just been a guy named John Harrison. Speaking of which, what was the point of the fake name?

The plot holes in this movie make Trek ’09 look solid. Why was the Enterprise underwater? The answer is because it looked cool, but wouldn’t it have been easier to hid the ship in orbit?

What was the point of demoting Kirk and transferring Spok when roughly five minutes later they had their old gigs back?

What was the point in Carol Marcus being in the movie? And why was she English, but then why was Khan?

Why is Mccoy always angry in the JJ-verse? That’s not how I think of McCoy.

Quinto’s Spock still reads as dumb. He is the weakest link in the cast.

What was the point of the Nimoy cameo? They worried about shoehorning Shatner into Trek ’09, but the only purpose Nimoy’s appearance served was so we could say we saw him. Also, in the heat of battle with that weird ship that was built while no one was looking (who ordered this Clone Army?) Spock takes the time to phone a friend. And the only info he got was, “yeah, Khan’s a bummer.”

Kirk dying was stupid. We all knew he wasn’t going to stay dead, so why go there. The scene with Kirk, Spock and the plexiglass was forced at best.

Why couldn’t McCoy have just pulled blood from one of Khan’s crew to save Kirk? More dumbing down of the characters.

The movie had the exact same ending as ’09. Right down to slapping McCoy on the back.

Sadly, the JJ and team movies are glorified Scooby Doo episodes. Where the problems are weakly contrived and could be easily solved if the characters weren’t written as dumb.

It’s not the worst Trek ever, that would be a tie between Nemesis and Insurrection, but it’s stuck in the middle, slightly above Trek ’09.

At least there was no lame attempt at humor like fat hands to insult our intelligence.

The writers continue to low ball the audience. They think were dumb, so they write down to us. Or maybe they’re dumb, either way, Star Trek was about being smart. I hope we get a whole new team for Trek 3.0. Not just a replacement for JJ, but for the writers as well.

Beam me up. Oh wait, we don’t have a direct line of sight to beam anyone up. pffft…

777. Ahmed - May 16, 2013

@771. Curious Cadet

What about the 72 cryogenically frozen crew members ?
Don’t look for a deeper meaning in a movie that lack it!

Bob & co failed to come up with a new fresh character & restored to bring an old one & not in a good way. Wasted 4 years to bring us this TWOK imitation

778. Will see all Star Wars & Star Trek movies no matter what ! - May 16, 2013

Just saw it

I liked it, it was worth what I paid to see it, the wait of 4 years for it was the worst part.
I’ now want all TOS episodes redone in the JJ verse but on TV and only original stories for the cinema, GOT THAT! and two and three year waits only!

If not for Spock telling me about Khan in the original time line, this movie would have suck big time; to me when I put myself in the alternate time line, then I can get into it. knowing the original time line was real* makes all this bearable and acceptable, specially since I know the point: investing money to make more money with this product.

Next movie all new adventure, YES!
Next TV series starts with a redone of Whom gods Destroy…GOT ALL THAT!

OR: Star Trek Academy in the original time line, Please, please, Please…!

779. Captain, USS Northstar - May 16, 2013

@boborci:

If you happen to come across my post, please convey my heartfelt thanks to all involved who made this movie happen! Others have said it better already, but the only word I can use to sum up my first viewing of STID this afternoon was AWESOME!!!

I’ll probably see it again this weekend because many folks have said that it’s better the second time around. There’s so much going on and so much to absorb in this movie — I can see why second and third helpings are necessary.

You did deliver on your promise: the movie “melted my face off.”

I grew up with Star Trek. I remember being scared out of the room by that monster face used in “The Corbomite Maneuver” when I was four! I watched in re-runs on the local independent station every afternoon at 5 p.m. I had books about the show including “The Making of Star Trek” and the original James Blish adaptations in paperback.

In a phrase, Star Trek and I have a long history. And it’s great to see it back — the Enterprise, all the characters I know and love — all bigger and better than ever.

But, here’s what I love the most: my 15-year-old daughter now shares my love for Star Trek thanks to ST ’09 and today’s viewing of STID. We shared a couple of tears during “the Kirk Scene” (I’m still sensitive to spoilers although I know they’re okay now) and a sigh of relief when that situation was “resolved.”

She reads the books I have, looks at my old Starfleet Technical Manual (and recognizes the inspiration for Starbase One) and watches select episodes of TOS with me.

It’s hard to find anything for a 15-year-old girl and her dad to agree on, let alone enjoy together.

You and your crew have given us a movie experience that we savored together, all thanks to an adventure called “Star Trek.”

Thank you, Bob and everyone else involved. And, I’m looking forward to the next installment and celebrating the 50th Anniversary in grand style.

PS — Now that we’re on to the five-year mission, perhaps we can start getting some novels set in this alternate timeline? Here’s hoping!

780. Philip - May 16, 2013

@boborci…. My once horrible week is now a great one. I haven’t been to a movie in a long time where I’m grinning ear to ear the entire picture. Been a Trek fan since 1987, Search for Spock was the first Trek film I ever got to watch on VHS. There’s so many awesome nods in this film to what came b4, but done in such a perfect manner it can only make one smile.

Anyone who nitpicks this movie to death ought to just go hang out with Admiral Marcus on the Vengeance, along with his chipper mood lol (BTW Peter Weller ROCKED!!!!!)

I’m not sure they’re going to be able to top this film… And that’s fine. Bring on a new TV series. Everyone involved with this film deserves full marks..

Also, a couple weeks ago, some haters were ragging on Kirk being revived using Khan’s blood, saying it was contrived… Idiots. Did you miss the scene in the beginning with the little girl who’s hair was falling out and clearly dying???? The set up was just fine to use that later on.

This is a damn good film. I can honestly say it exceeded my expectations and then some. Going again tomorrow when I take my dad to see it. I hope it makes a gazillion dollars. I’m still not sure how the hell Skyfall made a billion (good film but not good enough to warrant that kinda cashflow compared to a film like STID)

Nuff said

781. LutherSloan - May 16, 2013

There is a mistake in the order of the ships models. The XCV330 Enterprise is before the Phoenix :S. The NX Alpha, NX-01, Kelvin and Vengeance are OK.

782. Chain of Command - May 16, 2013

Saw it this evening. I enjoyed it. I was actually the only person in the theater to see it. So weird. However the theater I went to is at a mall that gets NO business.

Anyway, I really enjoyed this movie. It is definitely a “modern movie” (Quick cuts, running and jumping, fisticuffs galore, violence, industrial/gritty production value, etc.).

A lot of people are complaining that the film “lack’s a deeper, hidden meaning” and that it is a “copy” of TWOK. I didn’t see it as a copy. I don’t see any of these films as a copy of anything else. I merely take them for what they are intended to be: A new take on an old idea.

Khan is the best villain in the entire Star Trek canon. None of the spinoffs ever came up with an adversary that could even come close to rivaling him in terms of gravitas and depth. Also, Khan has marquee power, so it was only logical that he be “re-imagined”.

I don’t know if this film is a great film. I really need to see it again to put it all together. However, gut reaction: fun ride.

783. somethoughts - May 16, 2013

#771

Admiral Marcus confirms he is Khan, John Harrison says he is Khan, the credit after the film lists BC as playing Khan. I can’t believe you won’t accept BC is Khan.

Did you not watch the scene where Khan crushes Admiral Marcus head? Ehile his daughter looks upon in horror? Did you not watch Spock yell out, Khannnnnn after Kirk died? Did you not see Khan resists Spocks Vulcan Nerve Pinch? Did you not see Kirk revived by Khan’s blood? Did you not see them freeze Khan back in his tube?

Just accept that section 31 gave Khan a new face and identity, he was our top agent, revived by Admiral Marcus, and integrated into starfleet black ops…

784. sean - May 16, 2013

I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, though I wonder (and maybe @boborci could answer this) why Khan has changed ethnicity? Why not even a throwaway line like, ‘Well, we had to surgically alter him for his covert missions’? It niggled at me once the reveal was made.

And I actually was pleased that transwarp beaming was a plot point again, as I often disliked it in classic Trek when a new tech would be brought up in an episode or movie and then suddenly the next one comes along and everyone forgets we have this super amazing thing. I do hope some limitations are placed on the power of Khan’s blood, as that could obviously end up being kind of a boring get out of death free card if abused. I also appreciated that you left Khan alive at the end of the movie. Not only does it leave it open for him to return, but it’s in keeping with the general message of the film and the idea that Starfleet is about justice, not revenge.

785. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

781 – Memory Beta suggests that the XCV-330 was indeed a pre-warp interstellar ship launched before the Phoenix. I don’t think there is anything in canon that says when it was launched, but at least in some of the novels, it is pre-Phoenix

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(XCV-330)

786. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2013

@773. Josh C.,
“At some point one has to accept that people are who they say they are”

I see. So Cumberbatch is John Harrison, not Khan. I mean he said that’s who he was too. So which one should I accept?

—————————–
“Presumably Admiral Marcus did enough research on him to know that he is who he is back when he was first woken up.”

Is this the same Admiral Marcus that went looking for a 300 year old genetically engineered man to help him build more advanced starships in the 23rd century? Then gave him free run of Starfleet thinking he could maintain control of the superior intellect he intentionally sought him out for?

787. Josh C. - May 16, 2013

786 – please, Khan couldn’t wait to ditch his John Harrison cover.

And I think it should be clear from Space Seed/Wrath of Khan that Khan wold have zero problem learning 23rd century technologies and then learning how to modify and improve them.

And no one said Marcus was smart in how he dealt with Khan. If he was that smart, he would have never have woken him up (for the record, I don’t think they ever explicitly said they went searching for the Botany Bay specifically).

788. LutherSloan - May 17, 2013

@785 Memory beta is not canon. But I agree, The XCV-300 could be a pre-warp or warp ship, we don’t know. So… from now (based on Into Darkness) we presume that is a pre-warp ship. :S

789. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@783. somethoughts,
“Just accept that section 31 gave Khan a new face and identity”

And exactly where was that mentioned in the movie? I must have missed it.

Is that also when they explained that Khan was a genocidal dictator, completely contradicting the historical record presented in Space Seed? Assuming such information was passed off screen (since I evidently missed it otherwise), might that have been a lie (one of many) fabricated by Marcus as well? Hmmmm …

With so many lies, wherein exactly lies the truth?

790. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

I have my review up: http://hubcapdave.blogspot.com/2013/05/review-star-trek-into-darkness.html

Re: Magic blood. This actually didn’t bother me. I re-watched Space Seed recently (thank you, Netflix!). When Khan is in sickbay, McCoy says to Kirk something to the effect of “there’s something inside this man that refuses to accept death.” Having blood with accelerated recuperative powers is as good as any explanation for that.

791. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 17, 2013

Well, I’ve just come back from seeing STID for the fifth time. I’m still picking up new things each time I go – I’m obviously getting too old to take everything in in one sitting any more ;-)

I loved it the first time, and I still love it, so: thank you to all the team for this very enjoyable STAR TREK movie.

PS – the new bit from the latest viewing, for those who’ve been discussing this: we don’t ever actually hear the Captain’s Oath. There’s a cut over to ‘Space the final frontier…’ instead

792. Commodore Adams - May 17, 2013

This is amazing, look at all the feedback, boborci this must be gold!

793. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

789 – space seed never said he wasn’t genocidal. They said he was the “best of the tyrants” which, frankly, could be a pretty low bar to meet, and there were no wars under his rule. That doesn’t mean he didn’t do some ethnic clensing. I assumed Spock and Kirk got their information from the computer like they did in Space Seed. And even if they got it from Marcus, what incentive would he have for trying to maintain a fiction that he was Khan when he wasn’t?

794. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@787. Josh C.,
“please, Khan couldn’t wait to ditch his John Harrison cover.”

Perhaps too eager …

—————————-
“And I think it should be clear from Space Seed/Wrath of Khan that Khan wold have zero problem learning 23rd century technologies and then learning how to modify and improve them.”

About as clear as Khan was a dark skinned Northern Indian and probably a Sikh.

Or about as clear as he was the best of the dictators under whose rule there were NO massacres.

795. You want me to put on a WHAT color shirt!?!? - May 17, 2013

Bob Orci,

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but here is the post credits scene I was hoping to see…

Planet Nibiru…1000 years in the future.

Two archeologists digging near a long dormant volcano come across a cave painting of a “starship” and other renderings that tell a tale of “aliens” that save the local villagers.

One archeologist looks at the other and says:

“Aliens from outer space. Yeah, right.”

796. USSEXETER - May 17, 2013

Just got back from a 7:30 3D viewing and the theatre was maybe 1/3 full. Very empty and so was the 10 pm viewing as I heard the guy buying tickets as I walked past being told there are plenty of seats available. The 2009 film is way superior to this film. Hell the first 10 minutes in 2009 aboard the Kelvin are better than the entire STID. #4 said most of what I felt and good riddance JJ and take those fracking writers with you. I promised to take my kids this weekend to see it, thinking I would love it so much I can see it twice. I’m not looking forward to watching this again.

797. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

794 – If you want to put “Khan” in quotes because he’s not Indian, then I’m with you there. But I think it’s hard to argue that it was the writer’s intention that he be Khan, regardless of how well THEIR Khan actually matches canon

798. somethoughts - May 17, 2013

I recall a bond villain went from asian to caucasion through gene therapy and surgery? Also in mission impossible, agents often wore masks and disguises, also in face off, the two lead roles exchanged faces. It is not hard to imagine a black ops branch section 31 cover up Khan’s apperance and name changed to a John Harrison.

799. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

795 – LMAO that would have been hilarious

800. philip - May 17, 2013

I think one of the reasons theaters aren’t packed today is the nice weather (least where I’m living) and the fact most people still have to work Friday… I’d imagine tomorrow-Sunday will tell the real tale of how it does financially.

801. jennifer - May 17, 2013

bu-byeeeee #796. you hated the movie. such as life

plenty of others including me who adored the movie

802. Trekker2013 - May 17, 2013

@ bob orci

I truly understand of why you made John Harrison Khan, and why the ending was almost word for word, with the roles switched. It is all about quantum mechanics. The mere special appearance of Spock Prime should reassure diehard fans that ‘canon’ was never altered or disturbed. Nero’s appearence in the first movie gave all of us an opportunity to explore the original cast again, in a different universe. And what is amazing, is that since this ‘quantum mechanics’ idea was originally produced in an episode from TNG, we should not be surprised if we were reintroduced to ‘Abram’s Khan.’ There is no reimaging, no rebooting…whatever you may call it. Canon is preserved through Spock Prime, and we as trekkers, should be excited to see the crew’s five year mission. As the saying goes, “Everything that is old…is NEW again!” Thank Bob!

803. gavabot - May 17, 2013

@771

I had a theory along these lines also, however I believe it is too convoluted to be the original intent. I believe they genuinely wanted it to be the real Khan due to earlier statements about their approach to this film being like “The Dark Knight”. Khan would be to Star Trek what Joker is to Batman in their eyes.

What you suggest however would be a brilliant retcon for future installments. Lets hope someone does that.

I would add on to it that perhaps John Harrison is another augment that was vying for power with Khan, and assumed his identity for some weird reason of his own…

804. raddestnerd - May 17, 2013

My sentiments exactly after last night’s fan sneak:

4. Dirty Harry – May 15, 2013
SPOILER REVIEW

After a 4-year wait and a team of people so brilliantly talented, the one word I shouldn’t be using is “rushed”.

Unfortunately “rushed” is the best word I can find to describe STID. It’s not terrible but it’s certainly not brilliant.

- The film feels rushed – jumping from one scene to another.
- The dialogue feels rushed – no time for character in between the action.
- The plot feels rushed – is this the best they could do given so much scope?

Now don’t get me wrong – I want to love NuTrek. I initially didn’t like the new-look ship and the ibridge. But I’ve come to terms with all of that and I think there’s so much good in this new universe:

- The production values are better than we’ve ever seen before.
- The actors are brilliant and I honestly don’t miss the original cast, however much they’ll always have a special place in my heart.
- the dialogue is clever, witty, and faithful to the original.

But there’s one area that I feel lets everything down, and I’m almost embarrassed to say it because I know Bob Orci reads these pages, and that is the writing. Not the dialogue writing but the basic plot ideas.

The plot feels rushed (again) and lazy. What was probably intended to be an homage (Khan / reactor death etc) actually feels like a lack of originality. Why spend so much time and money in re-launching Star Trek, only to then fall straight back on to old villains and old ideas?

In my opinion, Khan simply doesn’t work as a villain – his “vengeance” doesn’t really make sense and he’s not really the true bad guy. It feels like the writers took a load of random ideas and threw them all together:

- Let’s do Khan!
- Wouldn’t it be cool to do something with Section 31?!?
- What about a huge starship?!?

To carry on my problem with how unoriginal this film feels, many scenes are lifted from ST09:

- Kirk fails and then succeeds (theme, not scene)
- Kirk works out that it’s a trap (Ent bridge / Starfleet meeting)
- Let’s punch it!
- the ending
- hanger bay before the mission
- shuttle to the Enterprise
- the big, bad, black enemy ship
- and so many more…

How sad that so many fans on this website came up with more original and more creative suggestions. That shouldn’t be possible!

Ideas that really excited me prior to the film:

- Gary Mitchell done with a big budget!
- Captain April gone bad!
- A renegade Starfleet officer!
- A film that wasn’t about a bad guy wanting revenge!

And yet we get a Khan who doesn’t really make sense. Marcus is the true bad guy. In fact, I spent most of the film thinking Khan might have been decent (at least that would have been original) but then he just falls into an unexplained stereotype…

Whatever you may think of the original Star Trek films, at least they were varied in theme and plot:

- TMP: An ancient probe looking for home
- TWOK: A returning villain looking for revenge
- TSFS: A mission to rescue a fallen colleague
- TVH: A bit of time-travel fun
- TFF: Klingons and a crazy but good-hearted Vulcan
- TUC: A mission of peace and an internal threat

And now we have:
09: Bad guy wants revenge in big, black ship
13: Bad guy wants revenge in big, black ship

Seriously?

OK, let’s change the record… Did anyone else feel like they’d seen the film before arriving at the cinema?

Despite JJ’s desperation for secrecy, there were no surprises at all. We knew Khan was coming, we had seen the Vengeance, we’d even seen its demise which turned out to be the end of it. I was waiting for some surprises but none came my way, despite avoiding spoilers and just watching trailers.

There was also no surprise in Kirk’s death and resurrection. The writers were never going to kill Kirk in Film#2 so there was no emotion and no surprise.

It sounds like I hated STID and I didn’t; here’s what I liked:

- the special effects
- the actors
- the nods to the original series
- the costumes
- the sets (yes, even engineering)
- the characters (apart from Kahn, who was unnecessary)
- the ships
- the Klingons
- the list could go on and on (it’s basically everything we see on screen)

But why can’t we be treated to a brand-new, fantastically creative storyline?

Do 4 years of wait and all that money deserve a re-hashed villain and a rushed and mixed-up plot? Couldn’t this new, wonderful, crew have stood on their own two feet?

Couldn’t we have had a great movie about the mission to Nibiru and the consequences? The first 10 minutes were great…

STID: a disappointing spectacle or a spectacular disappointment? One of the two and not what we deserve. Such a shame.

805. Li'l Shat - May 17, 2013

Oh how I’d love to see something truly original instead of these rehashing of old stories. I thought that with a new timeline we’d get really original stories!

Oh wait, Trek ’09 was a truly original story. For Heck’s sake, they blew up Vulcan!

This one wasn’t, quite. And I found it insulting that we’re supposed to just accept that Khan is now a skinny, pasty white British guy. New timeline! Suddenly Khan’s a skinny pasty white guy with a heavily British accent!

It’s amazing what Nero accomplished!

I think the writers need to leave off the original timeline entirely, and go boldly where no Trek has gone before from now on. And please, let go of Spock Prime. He was great in Trek ’09, giving his blessing to this new timeline and all, but that’s where his involvement should have stopped.

Actually, after having seen Prometheus and the entirety of LOST, I think what this new vision of Trek needs is the losing of any involvement from Damon Lindelof. The man is poison to beloved franchises of mine.

All that said, I still liked this movie. Just for Heaven’s sake (and I think we need a Shatnerism here for emphasis, maybe it’ll get through), let… GO!… Of the original… time… LINE!

Let’s see something truly new in Trek. Por favor?

806. sean - May 17, 2013

Just because Khan was the ‘best’ of the tyrants does not mean he did not do horrible things. And given the man we saw in both Space Seed and TWOK, he was clearly a megalomaniac who gave little thought to killing people who got in his way.

807. gavabot - May 17, 2013

I think one key trait of Khan that this film was inconsistent with was his desire to rule and his giant ego and air of superiority over humans.

I don’t see how he would settle with working as a subordinate to a regular human as well as commit an act of terrorism.

808. philip - May 17, 2013

I think Paramount may have changed their opening date too late to allow for theaters to be packed today… I even had a friend out in California say “oh wait, is that opening today or tomorrow?”.. That pretty much sums up where most people thought the film opened on the 17th, not the 16th…

I’d expect packed houses tomorrow night. No doubt.

809. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@806

I just rewatched the scene in Space Seed where they discuss Khan. While Spock does describe him as ruthless, Scotty pipes up with the fact that “there were no massacres under his rule”.

810. Viking - May 17, 2013

The wife and I just got back from seeing STID. (I’ve seen every one on opening night since ST: TMP was released waaaay back in high school, so I’m I’m a bit of a stodgy old geezer, Trek-wise). I’ll refrain from debating the good, bad, and the ugly of revisiting TWOK, and opine about a few thoughts fresh in my mind.

1) The Khan/Spock barge sequence – Uhura beaming down in time to lay enough of a Buck Rogers on Khan to let Spock finish the job was great. And she was enjoying it.

2) Best McCoy line: “Mr. Sulu, remind me never to piss you off.”

3) Best Sulu scene: When Dr. McCoy tells Acting Captain Sulu to remind him never to piss him off. You could see a bit of the future captain of the Excelsior there. (That scene was a two-fer, right there, folks.)

4) Klingons. UUUUG-LY. In a good sort of way. Didn’t seen to be quite as brutish in combat as their exterior would lead one to believe. A bit clumsy, actually, especially considering it’s the only time Kirk’s brawled with someone and generally been on the delivering end of a successful wood-shedding.

5) Admiral Pike’s death. What a waste to write Bruce Greenwood out of the Nu-canon. That guy is a great actor. And Pike was a wonderfully-written character in this incarnation. Yeah, Kirk has to eventually ride with the training wheels off, but not like this.

6) Spock Prime cameo: nice to see, written to connect some dots, but throwaway and a bit gratuitous.

7) Chris Doohan gets speaking lines. Twice. In the same scene. (Onya, Chris!) Ladies and gentlemen, we got ourselves a new transporter chief.

8) Cupcake Lives!

9) The Section 31 tie-in was pretty well handled, IMO. Gave it enough 23rd century roots without befuddling non-Trek fans.

10) Thank you, J.J., for toning down the lens flares.

11) The whole Kirk/Spock/Pike scene at Pike’s office was well done. It reminded me, in a oblique way, of a time when my buddy and I skipped class one day our senior year, found ourselves invited into the girl’s locker room at a rival high school via the back door, and……..well, I digress. But there are still Polaroids in someone’s photo album to prove it. Which is how we got busted to begin with.

All in all, this one ranks in the top quarter of the dozen Trek movies to hit the big screen, and I have them all. And, somewhere in a dusty old box, I have the opening night ticket stubs to prove it. That’s my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

811. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@807

I get the feeling Adm. Marcus held his 72 compatriots over his head.

@808

You are most likely right. While the midnight showing I attended had maybe 20 people in it, the ticket taker told me the earlier showing had a line that went out the theater and down the block.

812. Borjy - May 17, 2013

My favorite thing about this one is how insecure Kirk is whenever Khanberbatch is around. Especially in the space jump sequence. He copies his moves and boasts to impress him. Ha! Yeah. That was great. And I want more of that. Also, more skull-crushing please!

813. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@698. PaulB,
“YES, please! I’d love to see Harlan Ellison sue the snot out of these guys!”

Haha! And he would too …

I’d like to see a City on the edge of forever movie from these guys for an entirely different reason — QM MWI …

The stakes change entirely as stepping through the portal splinters off a new parallel universe which does not affect the original. So the whole reason for going back in time changes, and they are further faced with the reality that the future they return to is not the same one they left. Now that would be a fascinating exploration. Maybe do it like the “Time Travelers Wife” or “Somewhere In Time” and release it as a Fall/Winter movie between the big Summer popcorn blockbusters.

814. sean - May 17, 2013

#809

And all of them were going off of historical records that Spock specifically says are incomplete. Kirk specifically says he is the worst of the tyrants. And Khan’s behavior really tells us all we need to know.

815. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Yikes!

They changed it early on in Space Seed drafts for very good reason, that it would have been a Nazi cliche at the time.

Today it’s just weird. Love BC as Sherlock, but there’s explanation for why he’s “Khan Noonien Singh.” I suppose because it makes zero sense.

“Khan” makes very little sense as a character, origins or motivation.

I’ve seen the movie twice, btw.

It’s fine, but a definite step back from ’09, which I liked more than any other movie that year.

BTW, I laughed rather sourly upon seeing the dead but soon to be revived with Khan’s magic blood tribble both times. I swear to God, when I heard the spoiler stuff weeks ago I was convinced that it was a put-on.

>58. boborci – May 15, 2013
54. Not a coincidence. Inspired by Ericsen. In fact, we shot the movie using the name Ericsenn but decided it would give it away so we cheated the name Harrison into everyone’s mouth!

816. Ashley - May 17, 2013

@776 Thank you. You also summed up many of my thoughts. It’s shame they have to dumb things down for general audiences. ‘Red matter’, ‘super ice cube’, blue for stun/red for kill, etc. I can understand and even appreciate why they do it, but I think they take it too far sometimes. The movie is rated PG-13, they don’t need to dumb things down so young children can understand. Seriously ‘super ice cube’? It kinda makes me cringe.. Still, at least it’s not going the opposite direction with heavy exposition and treknobabble (which even bothers me sometimes). I just wish they could find a good middle ground. :/

817. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

… Incidentally, Starfleet Academy apparently dropped history from the curriculum after the big bad Romulans showed up.

These guys have never heard of Khan!

They also don’t have a computer that can tell them anything.

No Google in the JJVerse?

Nope, they have to call the real Spock.

818. BotanyBay - May 17, 2013

Is it just me, or do I remember the idea of Khan being awoken first by someone other than the Enterprise being a popular sequel plot theory around here a few years back. I also swear I remember someone mentioning him being integrated into starfleet and working with Kirk in this timeline. Whoever said that stuff was on the money in a lot of ways

819. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@814

No, he actually says “the best of the tyrants”.

That having been said, I do agree with you.

820. Anthony Pascale - May 17, 2013

William Bradley

Well in Space Seed they didn’t know who Khan really was until after he revealed himself. In Sickbay he said his name was “Khan” just like new universe bridge scene and at that point they had no idea he was “that Khan”

821. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

807 gavabot – I think his ruthlessness and want to rule showed up in the end. I think he basically said something to the effect that he and the augments would do the same as they did long ago.

I find it somewhat hard to stomach him working for Starfleet, but I think it’s plausible he would under duress, as long as he started trying to work on ways to screw Starfleet over pretty much from the start, and he did at least eventually as his hiding his followers in the torpedoes seemed like an attempt to free himself from Marcus’ blackmail.

809 HubcapDave – One could argue that either the data Spock/Kirk got via research was incorrect OR Scotty’s recollection of Khan from history books was incorrect. I think given the fragmented information from the time, either is possible. However, given Khan’s actions in both universes, he would be certainly capable of genocidal actions.

822. Bucky - May 17, 2013

What makes sense for me: Marus altered Khan’s physical appearance along with giving him a cover ID because “Hey! That’s Khan!” would make him an INCREDIBLY ineffective operative. No such luck hearing them mention that in the movie but maybe the novelization will take care of that.

Also Klingon appearance: this is how they cured the Augment Virus in the JJ-verse. Kinda, not really, but close enough and somewhat scarier looking as a result.

Also that was Praxis. Also I loved a Section 31 shout out, since it was in, like, barely a dozen episodes total.

823. Bucky - May 17, 2013

I mean, since there was footage of Khan walking about post-bombing the you’d figure they would be able to find out it was him lickety split with some snazy future technology software. So he had to undergo cosmetic surgery of some sort.

As for Khan working for Starfleet, it makes sense to me because he does, y’know, eventually crush the skull of the guy who is making him run through hoops and try to crash his ship into Starfleet HQ. Khan plays long ball. His is superior.

824. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

I don’t understand how Kirk survived when Khan start shooting at Starfleet HQ ? The guy was standing right in front of the bloody window when the attack began!!

Also, whoever approved of the trailers should be fired, they left NOTHING out. There was zero surprises in the movie, all the main scenes, including the ones at the very end, were in the damn trailers!!!

825. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Thanks for mentioning two more problems.

Praxis is destroyed MUCH later in the scheme of things. This was like throwing Delta Vega in from the edge of the Galaxy and making it look like one of Vulcan’s moons.

And mentioning Section 31 without saying what it is is just lame.

>Also that was Praxis. Also I loved a Section 31 shout out, since it was in, like, barely a dozen episodes total.

826. TheComrade - May 17, 2013

Is the cybernetic bridge officer supposed to be a rebooted Binar?

827. Bucky - May 17, 2013

Anyway, there’s no reason why not Praxis woulda blown up 30 years earlier in the prime timeline. Maybe all that juicy, advanced alternate reality technology just made it blow up sooner and without the help of the Federation it makes them more antsy and even more warlike.

828. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

As for the Praxis thing, I have two guesses

1) It wasn’t Praxis, but another moon that suffered a similar fate earlier. I don’t think that’s out of the question. Undiscovered Country didn’t indicate whether Praxis was their only moon.

2) Since Nero first arrived, the Klingons have been ramping up their war machine – something indicated by the seeming inevitability of war in this movie – which resulted in increased mining in Praxis, leading to the explosion sooner.

829. TUP - May 17, 2013

One word: masterpiece.

When I read the spoilers I came on here and panned them. I said it sounded like a mess. I was wrong.

This movie was amazing. I hate logic holes and I had no issue with anything.

Anyone ripping on the small things are self righteous negative nellies. No one makes a movie for just you. This movie works for everyone.

Some of my earliest memories are walking TOS. I love Star Trek and I went into this film assuming I would hate it.

They won me over.

The death scene a re-hash? Come on. They could have and should have gone even further with it.

Magic blood? Watch Space Seed. It’s all there

Spock Prime unnecessary? That’s the type of scene you don’t nitpick, you thank the film makers for including it.

The actors nailed their characters in a way they didn’t in 2009.

As for Khan, its fine. None of the actors look exactly like the originals. Sure he’s a Brit now. So what. His performance was amazing. This was not a rehash of TWOK. It was Space Seed.

The little throw aways were awesome. Kirk and Carole at the end was great.

Weller was great too.

Very emotional. Those that didn’t buy the emotion of the death scene are cold or refused to let themselves embrace the story

@boborci thank you. Amazing work.

830. Bucky - May 17, 2013

I know what the Section 31 is and it makes perfect sense to me and, dammit, that’s all that matters!

831. Bucky - May 17, 2013

Also “Shit, you talked to him, didn’t you?” is probably my favourite line of the movie. Heh.

832. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Alt-Trek apparently has never heard of the augments. This Kirk also is far less educated than the original Kirk.

I just deleted some very sarcastic stuff. Make no mistake, I like Pine, who went to my alma mater. He’s just a lot more young Han Solo than young Jim Kirk.

But that’s not a huge problem.

The lack of any explanation for why Khan Noonien Singh is played by a lily-white uber-Englishman takes me right out of the picture.

That’s a huge problem.

I love Cumberbatch, who is a better actor than the guy who was originally cast in this movie who actually works from an ethnic standpoint, but keeping it “Khan” even after the recast is pretty cynical.

820. Anthony Pascale – May 17, 2013
William Bradley

Well in Space Seed they didn’t know who Khan really was until after he revealed himself. In Sickbay he said his name was “Khan” just like new universe bridge scene and at that point they had no idea he was “that Khan”

833. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Oh, and for the fans who desperately ret-con — ON THEIR OWN — that Khan had plastic surgery …

Forget about it.

This actor, a fabulous Sherlock, is a Brit through and through.

834. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@821 Josh C.,
“One could argue that either the data Spock/Kirk got via research was incorrect OR Scotty’s recollection of Khan from history books was incorrect. I think given the fragmented information from the time, either is possible. However, given Khan’s actions in both universes, he would be certainly capable of genocidal actions”

Now who’a speculating? From this logic I can disprove anything ever said in Star Trek. At some point you have to accept what they tell you as fact. Right?

The bottom line is anything can be retconned in Star Trek and none of it is sillier than another, but it’s also not canon until it’s on film.

I don’t disagree that the filmaker’s intent was probably to make Cumberbatch Khan Noonien Singh (unless there’s a larger story arc coming with the third film). However, just like Orci admitted they left the time travel ambiguous in ST09 so audiences could interpret it in the old Back to the Future style or appreciate his QM MWI twist, they have seemingly left Khan likewise open to interpretation. Perhaps to give fans a way to reconcile Cumberbatch’s appearance as Khan.

The fact is, in Space Seed Scotty clearly states as fact that there were NO MSSACRES under Khan’s rule. Spock only states that the records were fragmentary pertaining to ships registries (as the Botany Bay was not listed), and no wider meaning can be accurately inferred. However, if you insist on assuming he means all of the records for the 1990s were fragmentary, then that easily explains why nobody can refute Harrison’s claim to be Khan, whether or not Marcus was smart enough to actually research it. It’s a double edged sword.

My contention is that there is more than enough room in the STID screenplay to easily tell a new story in which Harrison was only pretending to be Khan for any number of practical reasons and thereby introduce the real Khan, assuming someone wanted to make such a movie. And I’m not really seeing any arguments here to negate it.

835. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

This death scene felt like kids playing dress-up. In reverse in this case, which is, er, clever.

I watched Space Seed the other night.

No magic blood.

No midichlorians, either. Because that’s in Star Wars.

Khan and company aren’t super-soldier types because of chemicals or what have you in their blood, they are super-soldiers because of their entire systems!

>The death scene a re-hash? Come on. They could have and should have gone even further with it.

>Magic blood? Watch Space Seed. It’s all there

836. BeyondtheTech - May 17, 2013

Saw the movie again tonight. Still loved it.

One question just irks me now is…

“Is death overrated?” Short of losing vital organs or your head, can anyone with a disease be cured with a cryotube and a transfusion with a synthesized antidote from Khan’s superhuman blood?

837. Superquerulant - May 17, 2013

First of all: Yes… that must have been Praxis – And if the klingons started a destructive exploitation of this moon after the events surrounding the “Narada incident” it absolutely would make sense that it blew up “too early”.

Second: Some people are bit…ing about “head-squashing Khan” – My personal opinion: Looking back on TOS the bad guys (including Khan) were always crabbing the head of a certain captain.

So I personally see it as a consequent continuation of this “TOS fighting style”.

Third: @ 817: All Khan said was that his “name is Khan” – Could be Djingis Khan, Kublai Khan, etc..

In “Space Seed” Kirk & Co. had the “Botany Bay” and were therefore able to identify this specific “Khan”.

Plus: The only guy who actually mentions his full name is Spock Prime – And after that Alternate Spock knows suddenly a lot about “Khan Noonien Singh” (genocide, etc.).

I do not really see any problem there – Even Spock Prime in “Space Seed” had to “google” him!

838. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Keep rationalizing.

The destroyed “Praxis” is in the movie for the same reason Delta Vega is now next to Vulcan instead near the edge of the galaxy.

The writers playing mess with the old material games.

>827. Bucky – May 17, 2013
Anyway, there’s no reason why not Praxis woulda blown up 30 years earlier in the prime timeline. Maybe all that juicy, advanced alternate reality technology just made it blow up sooner and without the help of the Federation it makes them more antsy and even more warlike.

828. Josh C. – May 17, 2013
As for the Praxis thing, I have two guesses

1) It wasn’t Praxis, but another moon that suffered a similar fate earlier. I don’t think that’s out of the question. Undiscovered Country didn’t indicate whether Praxis was their only moon.

2) Since Nero first arrived, the Klingons have been ramping up their war machine – something indicated by the seeming inevitability of war in this movie – which resulted in increased mining in Praxis, leading to the explosion sooner.

839. TuP - May 17, 2013

No magic blood in Space Seed? Watch it again. One line gives it away.

840. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

The Praxis anachronism reminds me of a very big problem.

Qo’noS.

Or “Kronos” as they are now spelling it.

I don’t care how it’s spelled but it is the Klingon homeword and center of the Klingon Empire.

But apparently any bozo can beam on to the planet without detection.

And any ship can get down to near the planet’s surface before encountering any sort of security.

And these are the big badass Klingons??!!

With this kind of lame operation Adm. Marcus must be a totally paranoid psychotic to be worried about the Klingons.

841. fluke - May 17, 2013

Worst movie I had the displeasure to sit through in years.

842. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Alt-Spock knows because real Spock tells him.

Actually, in Space Seed all the Enterprise senior officers knew the whole story of Khan in advance.

Spock doesn’t know it as well because he’s from Vulcan.

The other officers go on and on about their admiration for him, appalling Spock before they actually tell him that humans can admire someone while still opposing him.

>Plus: The only guy who actually mentions his full name is Spock Prime – And after that Alternate Spock knows suddenly a lot about “Khan Noonien Singh” (genocide, etc.).

I do not really see any problem there – Even Spock Prime in “Space Seed” had to “google” him!

843. Li'l Shat - May 17, 2013

One word: derivative.

When I read the spoilers I came on here and panned them. I said it sounded like a mess. I was right.

This movie was amazing. I hate logic holes and when I pretend there aren’t any, I have no issues with anything.

Anyone ripping on the big, gaping things are self righteous negative nellies. No one makes a movie for just you. This movie works for me and I’m the equivalent of everyone.

Some of my earliest memories are wa*TCH*ing TOS. I love Star Trek and I went into this film assuming I would love it.

They lost me.

The death scene a re-hash? Of course. Why retread this tired path? At least in the original Wrath of Khan, we really believed Spock was dead.

Magic blood? Watch Star Wars Episode 1. It’s all there.

Spock Prime unnecessary? Of course. His role was to pass the torch to the new actors in the ’09 film. What’s he doing here? It’s a totally unnecessary scene and it leaves me scratching my head and asking.. why?

Some of the actors nailed their characters in a way they didn’t in 2009.

As for Khan, its fine. He was always a pasty white, skinny British white guy. Just look at Ricardo Montalban, who played Khan like.. twice.

The little throw aways were awesome. Kirk and Carole at the end was great.

Weller was great too.

Very emotional. Those that didn’t buy the emotion of the death scene are cold or refused to let themselves embrace the story, or just saw the cheap plot device of Kirk’s resurrection coming way ahead of time. Also, perhaps they’re tired of the allusions and attachments to the original timeline.

@damonlindelof. Get out of my beloved franchises. You’re a hack.

844. ATOZ the Librarian - May 17, 2013

Love the movie! I went as a Trek fan but also as a movie fan. It’s fun to hear my non-Trek friends talk about the movie and how much they loved it. I love the look and feel to the prime universe. It’s refreshing to have these movies come out and for the non-Trekkie world to embrace them.

I had a hard time with casting of BC as Khan too. He’s an amazing actor, but he didn’t feel like Khan to me. Benicio del toro would have been an amazing reboot of Khan if that would have worked out. But I did think Bendict was amazing in this movie.

I also kept wondering if there was a coorelation between Marcus and Paxon – they were both similar characters to me (I was wondering if Marcus was Paxon). I would have loved to have seen more of the effects of him being a traitor to the Federation on Carol Marcus. Who she really is still confuses me. I’m looking forward to the development of her relationship with Kirk in the next movie. I liked the Kirk death scene, but agree that it wasn’t too eventful knowing there was going to be another movie. I hope we see repercussions of him having ‘augment’ blood.

For sure more screen time of the Klingons and Section 31 in the next movie. The Klingons have always been Kirk’s biggest nemesis throughout his career and I would love to see more of that. More screen time for Sulu and Chekov too.

Thumbs up on Alice Eve as Carol Marcus, the Nimoy cameo and the twist of the WOK scenes. I see a lot of complaints, but it didn’t bug me as much. Pine, Saldana and Quinto were awesome! I loved seeing it in 3-D and want to thank the filmmakers on their hard work and for doing their best to keep the movie plot a secret.

Next movie title – “To Bodly Go”

845. Norwegian trekkie - May 17, 2013

I’ve seen it twice already here in Norway, opened friday 10th here, excellent movie!

846. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

It’s been long established that Tribbles and Humans have virtually identical body chemistry.

So injecting a dead Tribble with Khan’s blood, and the subsequent sudden reanimation of the dead Tribble, would certainly point the way to Kirk’s return from death.

I’ve seen this thing twice now. Absolutely loved the ’09 flick, despite a few things here and there.

The only way to enjoy it is to ignore the insults to one’s intelligence and keep things moving really really really fast …

So fast that you forget that Enterprise had no shields until it was barely overhead San Francisco, somehow surviving re-entry without them despite Sulu clearly stating that they would burn up otherwise.

Re-reading one’s material before publishing it is generally a good idea …

>“Is death overrated?” Short of losing vital organs or your head, can anyone with a disease be cured with a cryotube and a transfusion with a synthesized antidote from Khan’s superhuman blood?

847. Li'l Shat - May 17, 2013

844 ” The Klingons have always been Kirk’s biggest nemesis throughout his career”

Exactly. Not Khan. They dropped the ball on this one.

I suspect…

LINDELOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!

848. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@847

Biggest? No. Most frequent? Yes.

849. Li'l Shat - May 17, 2013

848 Oh come on, they killed his son.

850. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

The battles in Star Trek II were VASTLY superior to this stuff.

They’re naval battles. They require something called thought. And strategy.

This stuff is pod-racing from Star Wars.

But with a humongous ship.

Incicentally, if it is so advanced, and can be run by a tiny crew, or even one person, why is it so huge? (When it should be a lot more like the Defiant.)

Answer: Because that way it looks like an Imperial Star Destroyer.

>667. Mcflycat – May 16, 2013
I will go on record and say I thought STID was better than TWOK though. TWOK ship battle was totally flawed, and the genesis weapon was stupid.

851. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@849

And Kirk dispatched Kruge rather quickly once HE…HAD…ENOUGH….OF….HIM!

852. Mark - May 17, 2013

I enjoyed the movie except I just don’t care for Zachary Quinto as Spock. Now Spock Prime can travel across universes and time travel and save Kirk Prime with Khan blood. lol JJ killed Kirk and brought him back. No excuses not to bring Shatner back as Kirk Prime.

853. Li'l Shat - May 17, 2013

851 Yes, but the most Khan did was make Kirk pretend to be trapped underground on a planet. He didn’t even really kill Spock, since Spock returned in the next movie.

A Klingon cost Kirk both his son and his ship.

854. Kathleen - May 17, 2013

For all people who said that BC is fine actor but he is no Khan,

You are right, absolutely right, because HE IS NOT COPYING THE PREVIOUS VERSION; like every actor does Hamlet or King Lear, he’s creating his OWN VERSION. The Khan you have loved is still in your heart, and that’s fine, but sorry to break it for you, it’s not the ONLY version existing now. I bet that Pine and Quinto and any of the new cast member are all creating their own versions in this franchise as well.

@boborci I had said this on the other thread and I’ll say it one last time, then I’ll shut up. With an actor like Cumberbatch, who can practically deliver everything and play almost ANYTHING, the script failed him and he’s criminally underused. Seeing that so many hardcore trek fans don’t like his casting and it seems he can only been treated as a “decoration” of Darkness in this franchise, his character might as well not be used again.

855. Bodlygo - May 17, 2013

I just got done watching it. I’ll keep it plain and simpe it sucks! A disgrace to bear the name Star Trek.

856. Li'l Shat - May 17, 2013

@854

“For all people who said that BC is fine actor but he is no Khan,

You are right, absolutely right, because HE IS NOT COPYING THE PREVIOUS VERSION; like every actor does Hamlet or King Lear, he’s creating his OWN VERSION.”

Of course. Like Pine is playing Kirk (a cocky white guy), or Urban is playing McCoy (a grumpy white guy), or Saldana is playing Uhura (a black com officer), or Cho is playing Sulu (an asian navigator), or Yelchin is playing Chekov (a Russian wiz kid), or Quinto is playing a Vulcan (a pointy-eared bastard), or Pegg is playing Scotty (a neurotic Scot), etc…

BC is playing a pasty-white, skinny, British white guy named Khan.

I certainly buy it!

857. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

I TOLD YOU ALL SO !

Those of you who doubted, ridiculed, and bombast me for the past two years on this…well, and I say this with a great big smile on my face….you can all go and Kiss My Keyster.

And for those of you that continually refused to believe Anthony’s break story on this from April of last year, perhaps you might endeavor to believe him the next time he brings you a breaking story.

I also predicted over a year ago that Weller was a Starfleet spook who had picked up the Botany Bay’s crew and was using Khan.

VINDICATION is so sweet now!!

And Red Dead Ryan, Basement Blogger, an several others have been finally vindicated as well.

858. Nick Tierce - May 17, 2013

“I will target your life support systems, located behind the AFT nacelle…”

The nacelles are parallel to each other … how could one be considered “aft?” Wouldn’t they be port and starboard, if in naval terms?

859. Kathleen - May 17, 2013

#856 I was more emphasizing on BC’s aesthetic choices and interpretation as to what people said that BC was not channeling Ricardo Montalban, who is a a white Mexican; surely you have been jumping up and down yelling at the great Montalban’s casting for years too.

860. AyanEva - May 17, 2013

#857 You just reminded me…I said, shortly after I actually started commenting more often, that if I was wrong about it NOT being Khan then I’d admit it. So…

Could you pass me that crow over there? It looks pretty tasty! I kind of feel like eating it, actually.

LOL

I was wroooong.

861. Luuk1983 - May 17, 2013

I saw the movie yesterday and I’m not sure what to think of it. The action is great, the actors are great and there are a lot of Star Trek moments. How ever, there are quite some things that are too rediculous:

- Hide the Enterprise under water? WTF? Totally unneccesary.
- No serious starship battle? I know the Vengeance is way more powerfull, but it seems like the Enterprise doesn’t even have any shields at all.
- Gaping plot holes (who hold a meeting in the top of a tower, totally exposed, how did the enterprise get under water without being seen, or how would they even ever leave without being seen? And see next point)
- After the Vengeance crashes, Spock goes after him ALONE? Jezus Christ, he’s a terrorist who just crashed a starship into San Fransisco and you decide to follow him ALONE? And why, if Ahura is able to beam in right next to them, why not beam Khan up? (a.k.a. plot hole)
- Lack of originality. Again a space jump, Khan, ‘tribute’ to a classic scene? Did I wait 4 years for this?

Having said that, I still enjoyed the movie, it was at least entertaining and the SFX were great. And like I said, it deals with moral dillema, very Star Trek like.

But in the end, this is not the movie I expected it to be.

862. Nick Tierce - May 17, 2013

After all the speculation, I’m curious if Bad Robot planted those details “April’s Gun” to throw people off.

863. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

As I said, I watched Space Seed the other night.

No magic blood.

No dead Tribble experimentation with magic Khan blood.

When I first saw that spoiler I thought some drunk had come up with it in the middle of the night as a spoof.

>839. TuP – May 17, 2013
No magic blood in Space Seed? Watch it again. One line gives it away.

864. pauln6 - May 17, 2013

My post keeps getting swallowed so I’ll try one more time:

The pluses: Great effects, enjoyable ride, excellent performances.
The minuses: Overall plot very silly, don’t introduce ‘magical’ technology without considering its collateral effects – Transwarp beaming should have died a death – instead they made it better….

Ironically, you now need starships to land on planets and transporters to travel between star systems. :P

My biggest gripe, as ever, is why do the writers make Trek so sexist? Bad enough that the principle cast is so male-dominated but why compound that by making the guest cast male-dominated too?

Admiral Marcus – male, Harrison – male, Spock’s new captain – male, Pike – male, Keenser – male, 80% of the senior brass – male (and all human?), crew of the dreadnought – male, Khan’s security escort – all male, Qo’onos security escort – all male (I was really hoping Janice Rand would make into that landing party with Cupcake).

We did get Carol (avoiding love interest territory this time round but you know that will be her purpose next time), a woman replacing Chekov, some nurses, and a couple of hookers, but is that really the best they can do in the 21st century? And not only did Janice get bumped but so did Chris Chapel! They booted her off the ship completely!

I really hope it’s because they intend to re-introduce her in the comic but so far I’m not seeing much hope for equality of the sexes.

865. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

“You just reminded me…I said, shortly after I actually started commenting more often, that if I was wrong about it NOT being Khan then I’d admit it. So…Could you pass me that crow over there? It looks pretty tasty! I kind of feel like eating it, actually. LOL. I was wroooong.”

Wow, thank you so much AyanEva for that. Much appreciated. You are a very honorable and honest person.

I am hoping for the best here in getting similar unequivocal statements from:

Keachick

DM Duncan

Disinvited

Trek Fan

Montreal Paul

….and all the others who gave me and several others such crap about my Khan deduction over the past 1.7 years.

I view this as kind of a “Kobayahsi Muru Character/Honesty Test” here for these individuals.

866. ElrondL - May 17, 2013

We saw it tonight, and I’ve been in a happy Trek coma ever since… wow. I finally got brave & scanned the first 100-ish posts, and I had to say thanks to @Karen #66 & #79: you sure nailed it! We had the same reaction… Glad @boborci was there to back you up.

Thank you Mr. Orci, JJ, and *everyone* involved for making us proud to be Star Trek fans. The wait was worth it. Can’t wait to see it in IMAX 3D!

867. pauln6 - May 17, 2013

Wow and 5 minutes after I posted that message they’re doing a piece on BBC Breakfast news about the lack of women in movies and the clip they showed was… Star Trek into Darkness! My ranting made national news! :)

868. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

THE “MIRACULOUS” REVIVAL OF KHAN (Space Seed script)

[Sickbay - medical ward]

(At Khan’s bedside)
MCCOY: (to nurse) That’ll be all. (she leaves)
KIRK: Bones?
MCCOY: He’ll live.
KIRK: My compliments.
MCCOY: No, I’m good, but not that good. There’s something inside this man that refuses to accept death. Look at that. Even as he is now, his heart valve action has twice the power of yours and mine. Lung efficiency is fifty percent better.
(McGivers enters)
KIRK: An improved breed of human. That’s what the Eugenics War was all about.
MCCOY: I’d estimate he could lift us both with one arm. It will be interesting to see if his brain matches his body.
MARLA: Doctor, will he live?
MCCOY: It appears he will, Lieutenant. (leaves)

869. Aurore - May 17, 2013

@865. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
_________

:))

Sincere cOngratulations!!!

870. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

SUPERIOR HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE (Space Seed script)

KIRK: Common courtesy, Mister Spock. He’ll spend the rest of his days in our time. It’s only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
SPOCK: Because the scientists overlooked one fact. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.
KIRK: Interesting, if true. They created a group of Alexanders, Napoleons.
SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
KIRK: That fact isn’t in the history texts.
SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?

871. Bucky - May 17, 2013

Bah, Khan’s superior biology could shake off fatal radiation sickness like the common cold!

872. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

KIRK AND SPOCK SUCCESSFULLY PURSUE THEIR SUSPICION OF KHAN (Space Seed script)

[Officer's mess]

(After dinner, as liqueurs are being served.)
KIRK: Forgive my curiosity, Mister Khan, but my officers are anxious to know more about your extraordinary journey.
SPOCK: And how you managed to keep it out of the history books.
KHAN: Adventure, Captain. Adventure. There was little else left on Earth.
SPOCK: There was the war to end tyranny. Many considered that a noble effort.
KHAN: Tyranny, sir? Or an attempt to unify humanity?
SPOCK: Unify, sir? Like a team of animals under one whip?
KHAN: I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration.
SPOCK: Under dozens of petty dictatorships.
KHAN: One man would have ruled eventually. As Rome under Caesar. Think of its accomplishments.
SPOCK: Then your sympathies were with
KHAN: You are an excellent tactician, Captain. You let your second in command attack while you sit and watch for weakness.
KIRK: You have a tendency to express ideas in military terms, Mister Khan. This is a social occasion.
KHAN: It has been said that social occasions are only warfare concealed. Many prefer it more honest, more open.
KIRK: You fled. Why? Were you afraid?
KHAN: I’ve never been afraid.
KIRK: But you left at the very time mankind needed courage.
KHAN: We offered the world order!
KIRK: We?
KHAN: Excellent. Excellent. But if you will excuse me, gentlemen and ladies, I grow fatigued again. With your permission, Captain, I will return to my quarters.
(Kirk stands, and Khan leaves.)

873. Nelson - May 17, 2013

Just saw the film — I don’t have time for a detailed review but I will say #4 is totally bang on. The storytelling just felt lazy, there were so many cool possibilities racing through my brain up until around the halfway point — then the film just fell apart and I realized that this movie was turning to crap. And when was the climax again?

I really wanted Krik’s “death scene” to bring a tear to ‘me’ eye, but it didn’t — maybe it was partly JJ’s direction, but it was so contrived it was almost insulting.

I really liked the ’09 film and then later I grew to love it, so maybe after a second watching my feelings about this film will change. And even though I love Orci, Krutzman and Lindelof I think they need a bit of help next time. Or perhaps JJ needs to go… Whatever the case the storytelling was all over the place. Some nice action sequences though (Although the space battles where just lame).

It’s been a disappointing week here in BC — first the NDP loses the election (totally unexpectedly) and now Star Trek Into Darkness flops around in my brain like a half dead fish out of water — I don’t know wether to put that fish out of it’s misery and move on or throw it back in and give the film another shot…

874. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

Karen in @77 posted:

“Okay, Bob. Now I’m blushing! And since you’re hanging around, I’ll gush at you a bit more since I’ll likely never get another chance. Of the many many many things I truly do love about this film, (really, the reboot in general) is how you’re looking at the relationships. One thing that I wasn’t expecting, and am really impressed with, is how you’ve reinterpreted Scotty, and his relationship with Kirk. Because of the way they met there’s a whole new dynamic. I love how in-your-face Scotty is with Kirk, how relentlessly honest he is, how there’s the kind of respect that says — I will call you on your bullshit no matter what it costs me, because that’s how much I care about you. And the regard is mutual. I really love how this Kirk takes people for who they are and doesn’t stand on his dignity. When someone calls him on his bullshit, he listens. Mostly. He still seems to have a problem with being mother-henned by Bones. *g* In the same vein, I love his dynamic with Uhura, who is seriously awesome in every way. Thank you. No cringeworthy hints of a love triangle there. Kirk cares about her, he respects her, he trusts her, as a friend and a colleague. Their little scene in the turbolift is pure gold. Because their shared history over-rides protocol and he can’t help himself, he has to vent to someone about Spock and she’s the only one who really gets it. And she feels the same, so there’s this wonderfully funny shared aarrgghhh!!!ness about it that makes them so real and human. Those three have a bond that in a way transcends Starfleet….Again, I thank you and the whole team. Silly as it may sound, I just really want you to know that there are folk out here in cyberland who get what you’re doing, love what you’re doing, and truly appreciate what you’re doing. You are beyond brave.”

THIS IS THE BEST POST SO FAR ON THIS THREAD. Well said, Karen!

I have myself seen the movie twice so far, and liked it even better the 2nd time. I would add to your comments that the growth of Kirk-Spock friendship, the parallel yet different aspects to the death scene from Trek II, the surprise appearance of Spock prime, and the “controlled use” by JJ of Orci’s political message on 911 and Bush overreaching, made for an outstanding Trek film.

875. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

SUSPICIONS CONFIRMED, THE ENTERPRISE OFFICERS I.D. AND THEN DISCUSS THE FAMED KHAN NOONIEN SINGH (Space Seed script)

[Briefing room]

(A large picture of their guest in on a screen)
KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I’ve always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan’s quarters, effective immediately.

876. K-7 - May 17, 2013

#873 “It’s been a disappointing week here in BC — first the NDP loses the election (totally unexpectedly) and now Star Trek Into Darkness flops around in my brain like a half dead fish out of water — I don’t know wether to put that fish out of it’s misery and move on or throw it back in and give the film another shot…”

Yes, that is exactly what occurred to most people when they left the theater after seeing STID….first the NDP loss, and now this?

WTF? LOL :-)) I don’t have a clue what you are talking about, guy.

877. Steve Troop - May 17, 2013

It kinda felt like the biggest budget fan film of all time. Love the cast. Loved the production, but felt like the writing was nothing new and rather predictable. A lot of it was tainted by theBLATANT LYING for the last four years of the production staff saying “Oh — no Khan in this film,” only to have them basically to just do that anyway. You know what would have made a great film> Have this Khan be a good guy given the new set of circumstances. Have him join with Kirk instead of his lame revenge thing. Or — hey — let’s make it really interesting — let’s do something that no one expects? I mean — the hallmark of a bad fan film is that they constantly quote old lines in new ways. Why? because they’re not writers and they love the source material. What’s the “Star Trek Into Darkness” writer’s excuse? They were paid. They already say that they’re not really fans. So give us a new story. Give me about 12 dollars of my 18 dollar ticket price back. I feel like I got that much back from the actors at least.

878. Steve Troop - May 17, 2013

Oh, and I can think of 72 reasons that they didn’t have to save Khan to save Kirk. And I bet you can too. Sad, sloppy writing.

879. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

So, what we learn from Space Seed is that Khan does not rely on “magic blood,” which he does not have, he revives because of the power of his body.

The Enterprise officers in the original universe are much better informed about their world’s history than the Alt-crew and immediately suspect that Khan is one of the missing supermen who became dictators and sparked a global war.

They confirm their basic suspicion of Khan, in a very well-written scene, by springing a trap using their wits as weaponry.

From there, it is a simply step to confirm that THIS Khan is THE KHAN, a figure with whom they are quite familiar.

THE KHAN ruled the world from Asia to the Middle East.

Alt-Khan is much more likely to have ruled the world from Sherwood Forest to Big Ben.

880. Disinvited - May 17, 2013

#853. Li’l Shat – May 17, 2013

Oh Khan did more than that: all those dead bodies on Regula I.

881. Aurore - May 17, 2013

@ 732. Olivia.

Hi, Olivia!

I’m well. Thank you for asking. ‘Hope everything is fine for you too.
I was happy to read from you after all this time!

882. Todd walker - May 17, 2013

I just got back from seeing STID, and I thought it was fantastic. This was every big as good as TREK09 if not Better!! I took my Brother whonis bot a Trekkie. He loved Trek09 and like this even more. He is now interested in more Star Trek, so I see this film getting more people into the franchise just like what happened in Trek09. JJ and crew did a fantastic job. I thought the script was great, and felt even truer to TOS then the last one. There was a better balance of dialogue vs action in this one. The story was more intense and not really too dark, which i liked. Of course my only complaint is I want More!! The Klingons were fantastic, special effects amazing, and the humor just right. They accomplished it again and it was well worth the wait!!
Im seeing it again on Tuesday in Imax 3D!!

883. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

To those of us who really liked the movie:

We are the 83% “largely silent majority” here (see the poll) who really liked this movie. So keep in mind that most of the posts here are from the “largely vocal small minority” of 17% of the people who did not like the movie.

S C O R E B O A R D ! ! !

The movie rocks, and the vast majority of us Trek fans here are in rock solid agreement on this.

So to all of us, and to Bob Orci and Supreme Court, I say: don’t let this tiny but very vocal collection of naysayers and malcontents cloud your view of this great Star Trek movie. The whiners and are always going to whine here, but the 83% who love this movie know the real score here.

S C O R E B O A R D ! ! !

884. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

The Klingons look weird and are too easy for Kirk and company to fight.

885. jesustrek - May 17, 2013

Roberto Orci a titulo personal y muy personal te digo GRACIAS por Star Trek Into Darkness yo fui puntual el viernes pasado 10 de mayo a la primera funcion en el Cinepolis que queda cerca de casa a la funcion de 2:15pm en 2D con el mismo entuciasmo que en 2009 y esta vez la he disfrutado mas me emociono y me conmovio hasta las lagrimas 2 veces, es una pelicula redonda muy bien escrita con todos los elementos que la hacen Trek, en esta linea alterna lo mas representatvio el vestuario que une TOS con las cintas 1-6 las ecenas del Enterprise desde que sale de la playa y en el resto de la pelicula son un manjar visual y me ha recordado mucho a TOS y la forma en que ligas esa tematica de TNG al oirigen de ……….Muy bien podria continuar mas pero en varios apises de latinoamerica aun no se estrena y en España tampoco asi que omitire Spoliers ya la he visto por seguna vez en 3D(me falta 4D e IMAX) con amigos y familia y su respuesta es muy positiva.

Gracias vivi ese Star Trek con el que creci, mis respetos, Larga y Prospera Vida.

886. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Oh? Think again.

As a reality check for you, I voted this one as a “good Star Trek movie.”

It’s certainly more entertaining than half the TNG pix.

The ’09 movie was my favorite movie that year.

>883. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
To those of us who really liked the movie:

We are the 83% “largely silent majority” here (see the poll) who really liked this movie. So keep in mind that most of the posts here are from the “largely vocal small minority” of 17% of the people who did not like the movie.

887. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@886. Do the math, dude. If you add “Best”, “Great” and “Good” — the three positive measures in the poll, you get 83%. Math doesn’t lie.

But hey, if you insist I pull out “Good”, then we are still at 68% saying it is either the best Trek movie ever or a Great Trek movie.

Not sure what you point is. My point is based on the quantitative results of the poll and is not subject to subjective debate.

888. Todd walker - May 17, 2013

Also I wanted to add that there will always be nit-pickers: too much dialouge..not enough…too much action… Not enough etc.. You can’t please everyone.

I reallly loved the humorous lines like “are you out of your corn-fed mInd!” and more.. Great humour to balance out the serious dramatic tone. Great score by Giachinno as usual.

Did anyone else notice a different music cue during the hospital scene from the teaser? I like the original cue better than the one the chose. Maybe the thought it was too melodramatic? Also it seemed like some lines from the trailers seemed missing from the film. Or were those extra lines they used just for the trailers?! Great film!!

889. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I can tell this is going to be too complicated for you, but it is quite possible for a film to be both entertaining and deeply flawed.

I have nothing more to say about your grasp of “polling,” which happens to be something I deal with on a professional basis.

Oh, and patting yourself on the back for correctly deducing one of the dumbest twists in recent movie history is not well advised.

>887. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
@886. Do the math, dude. If you add “Best”, “Great” and “Good” — the three positive measures in the poll, you get 83%. Math doesn’t lie.

But hey, if you insist I pull out “Good”, then we are still at 68% saying it is either the best Trek movie ever or a Great Trek movie.

Not sure what you point is. My point is based on the quantitative results of the poll and is not subject to subjective debate.

890. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

Some STID questions for bob orci:

-Was there any discussion/attempt etc at a shatner cameo scene this time?

-Was there any discussion about showing the Botany Bay? (Maybe at in the warehouse at the Raiders style end when we see all the pods being locked away? )

-are the Eugenic wars still supposed to happen in the 1990s? (im guessing they are but no time specific so as not to confuse everyone).

-Was there any discussion of perhaps doing some kind of flashback scene involving Khan and the EWs? (like Spock Primes flash back/forward scene in ST09)

-was any explanation considered as to why khan looked different (ok I know he would always look different as someone else plays him -same with kirk etc ) but im wondering if Marcus could have ordered Khan have his facial appearance altered while still asleep so he would be untraceable to facial recognition? (like the villain in Die Another Day) which in turn could explain why he didn’t look like Ricardo.

-talking of Richardo was there ever any discussion/intention of perhaps giving the original khan some kind of cameo (I.e. if above scenario then either in a photo or CG augmented footage of 1967 Ricardo when Kirk Spock discover who he really is -similar to when they discover Khans identity in Space Seed )

-was Harrison always meant to be khan? I was thinking right up until the end that he might turn out to be one of khans henchmen posing as khan (like Ras Al Gould in Batman Begins – especially when considering the Nolan batman influence in nuTrek) leading to a big twist climax where we find out it was Joachim*, with Khan (CG 1967 Richardo) in a cryo pod to be awoken ‘Arnie’ Terminator 4 style.
(*BC looks abit like the guy who played Joachim – http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3e4jZcR_7GA/UCqoOMKfkoI/AAAAAAAAJcY/fh0gvK_E rLY/s400/joachim.jpg

Btw – absolute loved every minute of STID! it was just non stop from start to finish.

891. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Ah, yes, those pesky “nit-pickers” …

Let’s see.

I would say … just the right amount of dialogue.

And just the right amount of action.

Huh, maybe there’s more to it than that.

>Also I wanted to add that there will always be nit-pickers: too much dialouge..not enough…too much action… Not enough etc.. You can’t please everyone.

892. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

gahhh link no work try again:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3e4jZcR_7GA/UCqoOMKfkoI/AAAAAAAAJcY/fh0gvK_ErLY/s400/joachim.jpg

893. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@889. Enjoy your delusions, and keep whining about the movie. I am finding it quite entertaining.

BTW, here are some other numbers you won’t like:

Rotton Tomatoes: 87% Reviewers; 91% Users

IMDB User Rating: 8.3 (note: STII-WOK = 7.7)

These numbers, like the Trekmovie.com poll numbers don’t lie, dude; in fact they self-validate each other.

You and the other handful of fans here who have all of the supposed problems with the movie can vent all you want, but the VAST MAJORITY of both Trek Fans and movie fans love this movie.

“Oh, and patting yourself on the back for correctly deducing one of the dumbest twists in recent movie history is not well advised.”

The fact that you, in particular, don’t like me drawing attention to this, pretty much reconfirms for me why I will be continually proud to keep drawing attention to this. Thanks for the reverse validation — much appreciated!

894. DiscoSpock - May 17, 2013

William Bradley,

You sound like someone who is just king of grumpy about this movie, and who just wants to make a big deal nitpicking everything so as to get a reaction here from the very large majority of the people who really liked it?

895. Unbel1ever - May 17, 2013

893. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013

What you do not seem to understand is that you can enjoy a movie while at the same time thinking that it is pretty dumb. “Die Hard” is a prime example for such a movie. I think most people, like myself, enjoyed the movie for what it is. A popcorn flick. They just think it is a pretty bad Star Trek movie, which it also is. If the script of a summer blockbuster based on a mainstream comic book (Iron Man 3) has more whit than a Star Trek movie, there’s just something wrong with that.

896. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Only someone who is incapable of making his own argument keeps citing polls as arguments. The sort of thing I’d expect from a Transformers fan, say.

What you also don’t grasp is that I couldn’t care less about you patting yourself on the back for predicting the Khan nonsense. If you want to look like, ah, what you look like, have a ball.

Dude.

>893. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
@889. Enjoy your delusions, and keep whining about the movie. I am finding it quite entertaining.
BTW, here are some other numbers you won’t like:

>The fact that you, in particular, don’t like me drawing attention to this, pretty much reconfirms for me why I will be continually proud to keep drawing attention to this. Thanks for the reverse validation — much appreciated!

897. draderman - May 17, 2013

Good movie

Lets talk about TRANSWARP BEAMING.

So… now i can beam from wherever I am, to wherever I want, anywhere.
No more 40,000 KM limit.
Okay, cool (I guess)

Since this tech was never seen in the prime universe, I must assume Mr. Scott discovered it after Nemesis, but before Spoke Prime traveled to the JJverse.

So the real question is: WTF PRIME SPOCK?

898. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

You sound like someone who doesn’t want to hear any criticism and can’t think of anything better to say.

The points I’m raising are very fundamental issues about this movie, and about Star Trek.

You actually don’t sound like much of a Star Trek fan with that sort of argument.

Now, I think it’s an entertaining movie. But it’s nowhere near as good as the ’09 flick. It’s kind of a big pastiche.

>894. DiscoSpock – May 17, 2013
William Bradley,

You sound like someone who is just king of grumpy about this movie, and who just wants to make a big deal nitpicking everything so as to get a reaction here from the very large majority of the people who really liked it?

899. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@898. In other words, since you can’t refute my numbers, you are going to personally attack me and say I’m not a real Trek Fan — that I am a Tranformer’s fan..WTF?

Nice!

The numbers don’t lie — the vast majority of us really like this movie.

You don’t have to like it, and you don’t have to like me, but it is what it is.

You go ahead and have the last word now. Tell me how dumb I am again and say something mean again, and be sure to once again infer your intellectual superiority. I, and the other 83% of the fans here, can take it.

900. DiscoSpock - May 17, 2013

William Bradley,

Why did you feel the need to respond to my post with a personal comment saying: “you don’t sound like much of a Star Trek fan?”

It’s fine that we disagree, but I see no need to be dragged into this kind of personal insult nonsense here.

I would argue that you are the one not behaving like a Start Trek fan here. IDIC, William Bradley. IDIC

901. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@900 “It’s fine that we disagree, but I see no need to be dragged into this kind of personal insult nonsense here.”

DiscoSpock,

He is grasping at straws at this point. Just let it be. Hopefully he’s going to bed soon.

902. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

No, “dude.”

Here is the “in other words” part that you just don’t want to get.

You can’t refute any point I make, so you keep citing a fan poll and “math.”

That is what a Transformers fan would do.

If I want to deal with box office numbers, I go to Nikki Finke’s site. If I want to discuss Star Trek — which means DISCUSS STAR TREK, not what you imagine an online poll means — I go where Star Trek fans discuss Star Trek.

If you’re so sensitive about any criticism of this movie, which I think is better than most but has some troubling developments, you should stop reading this stuff.

>899. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
@898. In other words, since you can’t refute my numbers, you are going to personally attack me and say I’m not a real Trek Fan — that I am a Tranformer’s fan..WTF?

903. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Because dismissing what I say as being the product of a grumpy person — when you can’t even discuss it, much less refute it — is its own kind of personal attack.

You dismiss criticism with a complete lack of substance and a focus on personality.

Which doesn’t sound like a Star Trek fan to me.

>900. DiscoSpock – May 17, 2013
William Bradley,

Why did you feel the need to respond to my post with a personal comment saying: “you don’t sound like much of a Star Trek fan?”

904. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@902 Your response is exactly what I expected. Have a nice day, DUDE!!!!!

905. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

All you do is repeat some online polling numbers — which have no statistical validity — and pretend that you are discussing the movie.

We both know who is grasping at straws around here.

But maybe you’re just not very interested in the substance of this movie. It does have lots of wow and flutter.

>901. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
@900 “It’s fine that we disagree, but I see no need to be dragged into this kind of personal insult nonsense here.”

DiscoSpock,

He is grasping at straws at this point. Just let it be. Hopefully he’s going to bed soon.

906. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

In other words, you can only repeat an online poll. Over and over and over.

>904. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
@902 Your response is exactly what I expected. Have a nice day, DUDE!!!!!

907. Trekker5 - May 17, 2013

@881Aurore

Glad to hear! :) I’ve been trying to stay away from commenting before the movie,and reading comments. I wanted to be as suprised as I could and I was! :) But I’ll be jumping back in now.

908. Dave H - May 17, 2013

Wow, who beamed in this Bradley jerk to our sequel party?

909. DirtMcGirt - May 17, 2013

@BobOrci

Was section 31 a result of you and Alex watching DS9 or Voyager? I ask because DS9 seemed to tilt towards the notion that Section 31 was the Covert Intel/OPS for the Federation and not a part of Starfleet,

Enterprise turned it around that section 31 was a covert part of Starfleet

What are the odds the next film is tilted more towards Star Trek: TMP or Insurrection that are exploration driven and not popcorn action (not that I am at all complaining,..I thank god that you and JJ and the Sup Court brought Trek back and made it look so aesthetically pleasing!

910. trekwho - May 17, 2013

First impression after just seeing it….what a fine and entertaining tribute to TWOK! Without TWOK this movie would have been honestly ho-hum, but with TWOK in the back of your mind it made this movie shine.

911. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@908 “Wow, who beamed in this Bradley jerk to our sequel party?”

Captain Koloth beamed Bradley over to us — it’s his revenge for Scotty beaming over all of those Tribbles years ago to his ship. LOL

912. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I knew you kiddie boys would break into sophomoric personal attacks and sheer guff.

You just got nothin’ else to say. Get some game. Learn how to use ideas to make a grown-up argument.

And don’t be so insecure that you have to lash out personally at pretty restrained criticism of a movie and cite polls to try to force a sort of crowd-think.

908. Dave H – May 17, 2013
Wow, who beamed in this Bradley jerk to our sequel party?

911. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
@908 “Wow, who beamed in this Bradley jerk to our sequel party?”

Captain Koloth beamed Bradley over to us — it’s his revenge for Scotty beaming over all of those Tribbles years ago to his ship. LOL

913. trekwho - May 17, 2013

Has the inevitable who is the better Khan debate begun yet? lol

914. DirtMcGirt - May 17, 2013

Oh, and so my previous msg doesn’t come across as monotonous nitpicking but my point DS9 vs. Enterprise interpretation of Section 31

Bob, would you not agree that there exists a huge difference in the notion that Section 31 is a) a black ops arm of the political machine that is the Federation Council (subject to oversight by the council members)

b) a covert ops/intel operation as an extension of Starfleet Command, which although an exploration driven institution, is considered the militaristic/defensive administrators of Federation Space (and thus an unelected organization making geopolitical decisions (Launching a first strike on the klingon empire and thus apparently declaring war without the knowledge of the elected civilian political administration.

I Loved the movie, and if I didn’t I wouldn’t sit here half baked at 3 AM in L.A writing this LOL,

915. Nick - May 17, 2013

MJ … myself & keachick gave you credit & dedicated homage quite a few days ago my friend.

Hope you enjoyed the movie & Benedict’s Khan. Interesting to see all the varying points of view …. I loved it & almost wish he could be a continuing part of the saga …

916. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I’ve mostly forgotten Voyager but I don’t remember Section 31 figuring much if at all there.

Section 31 barely gets a mention in this movie but it figured prominently first in DS9.

But Enterprise precedes DS9 of course in the chronology of things.

It always seemed to me that Section 31 began as a black part of Starfleet Intelligence and then went still more dark after that. But DS9 days are way in the future for this movie series, a future that has been sharply altered.

>Was section 31 a result of you and Alex watching DS9 or Voyager? I ask because DS9 seemed to tilt towards the notion that Section 31 was the Covert Intel/OPS for the Federation and not a part of Starfleet,

Enterprise turned it around that section 31 was a covert part of Starfleet

917. Nick - May 17, 2013

913:

There is no better Khan in my book. They are both clearly great actors who I am sure would have given equally great performances as Macbeth or whomever …

918. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@915 Thanks Nick. Thanks Keachick.

Glad you loved the movie, Nick — as the vast majority of us did!

I think BC’s Khan will be back; perhaps about 3 movies down the road from now. I see them making about 5 movies with this cast, so it would be a great close-out with Khan in the fifth and final movie.

919. Unbel1ever - May 17, 2013

914. DirtMcGirt – May 17, 2013

“Oh, and so my previous msg doesn’t come across as monotonous nitpicking but my point DS9 vs. Enterprise interpretation of Section 31″

Don’t get your hopes up. It’s not like there’s been given much thought to anything other than the action sequences in this new universe. There’s nothing to interpret, because there is nothing there. This Star Trek has no Okudas who take pride in creating details and a bigger universe. It’s about style, not substance. But hey, I’m ok with that. It’s a movie and it’s in a parallel universe. The universe we loved may yet come back in a CBS tv show, but until then, don’t go looking into details and notions. They don’t exist.

920. Aurore - May 17, 2013

“…. But I’ll be jumping back in now.”
________

That’s good to hear, Olivia! Welcome back, dear!

:)

I’m pleased to hear that you were satisfied with the movie, too!

921. Kietero - May 17, 2013

Question… Aside from a non canon comic, what do we really know about Khan outside of Space Seed and TWOK? It just occurred to me, what rule is there that Khan HAS to be Sikih and portrayed by a Latino actor?

Consider this…
1: Khan was born during the British rule of India, before or during Ghamdi’s revolution

2: do we know who Khan’s engineer was, in canon? Khan could have Sikih blood in him, or he could be ango white and brought into a Sikih family in India, raised and schooled there until he mastered what he needed to and then started his conquest

I think it might be safe to say that whether he’s played by a Latino or a white guy, it doesn’t matter who Khan is portrayed by. We don’t know the true history behind the character and his origins. TOS is one interpretation. Now, STID is another. I may be able to slowly accept BC as Khan if I keep the above two things in mind.

Again, it’s just a thought that came to mind thinking more deeply about this obvious issue with the movie’s story

922. Aurore - May 17, 2013

“I’m pleased to hear that you were satisfied with the movie, too!”
________

I should rephrase, Olivia; aside from hearing from you again, I’m also pleased to know that you enjoyed the movie.

I did not mind reading articles containing spoilers, but, I haven’t seen it yet.
The movie opens on June 12 in my country.

:)

923. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

@921

” it doesn’t matter who Khan is portrayed by. We don’t know the true history behind the character and his origins. ”

like the Joker in TDK

924. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

ok big post alert

a list of homages/nods to previous Trek in tv and film – some of these will be way obvious (may have missed some)

-Khan (duh! – Space Seed/TWOK)

-Carol Marcus (TWOK)

-Christine Chapel is mentioned (TOS)

-Daystrom Institute mentioned (TOS/TNG)

-Section 31 (DS9/ENT)

-model ships on Admiral Marcus’ desk – the ring Enterprise from similar chronology of ships as pictures on the wall of the Enterprise in TMP, the NX01 from ENT*, the Kelvin, the space shuttle, and think i saw Cochrenes ship the Phoenix from FC on there too…any others?
(*Weller played the villain Paxton in ‘Enterprise’ – so maybe the NX01 theres was a little nod/foreshadow to him turning out evil in this?)

-72 operational cryo pods (same in Space Seed)

-TMP style grey uniforms at certain points (Admiral Pike, McCoys white medical tunic)

-McCoys medical T shirt (straight out of TOS)

-Kirks leather coat in the Qo’noS scenes (reminiscent of Shatners Trek III coat)

-the cloak/coat Khan was wearing on Qo’noS recalled Khans costume from TWOK (e.g. the way he was wrapped up at the start – like Khan on Ceti Alpha V and also the ribbed collar of his jacket, being highly reminiscent of Khan’s TWOK brown outfit)
http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/itskhan-collar.jpg

-tribble

-cat girls (TFF)

-Chekov’s redshirt fear

-various TWOK cues used in the score (mentioned on various boards but i didnt notice any. will have to see again and listen out)

-kirk made a gag about sulu wanting his own command after having sat in the chair (TUC)

-various lines – ‘Needs of the many..’…’they gave her back to me’…’you better get down here, better hurray’…’Wrath’ of the Klingons’…’Data reports that you blah blah’ (ok i know that last one might not have been intentional but the way Pike said it made me think he was referring to Lt Cmr Data – could he have been found earlier in this new timeline?)

-Qo’noS (TUC). Plus it looked like a nearby moon had recently exploded (Praxis?) laying waste to the klingon homeworld (a few decades earlier than wouldve happened in VI due to the Narada speeding up overmining, thus making the klingons more agressive and hungry for war)

-Klingon BOPs (the way they landed was similar to TSFS)

-USS Vengeance (looked like a TNG era ship esp the Ent E…plus the name recalled the original title of Star Trek II – The ‘Vengeance’ of Khan )

-Starfleet admiral saying war with the klingons is inevitable and conspiring with another villain to instigate a war with them – also ties in with the praxis thing (TUC)

-Scotty sabotaging an advanced starship with transwarp capability (TSFS)

-Spock Prime recounting the events of Space Seed/TWOK

-Khan threatens to take away life support (Space Seed)

-khan commendeering a federation vessel (Space Seed/TWOK)

-The safety belts that Spock, Sulu, et al wear (NEM – deleted end scene)

-saucer crash (GEN)

-Kirks radiation death/Spock screaming KHAN! (TWOK)

-Kirk lives (several TOS eps – esp Amok Time)

-the 5 year mission (TOS)

-’to boldly go where no ‘one’ has gone before’ (TNG – also used in ST09)

plus other movies:
-the way Khan kills Marcus (Blade Runner)

-the opening running away from the spear throwing natives (opening of Raiders)

-Khan and his followers at the end in the warehouse (end of Raiders)

-opening also recalled elements of Prometheus (aliens were abit similar to engineers & the opening deals with the enterprise crew depicted as aliens landing a gigantic saucer craft on a planet early in its development helping them along, the aliens drawing the enterprise symbol) plus later on Bones and Carol land on a barren planet that looks alot like LV233 (probably filmed in Iceland too) – btw Damon Linelof co-wrote both movies

-grey uniforms (Star Wars Empire)

-The interior of the USS Vengeance appears to be a cross between the Enterprise and an Imperial Star Destroyer

-flying a Millenium Falcon type shuttle on Qo’noS

-”WILL FIT! WILL FIT! WILL FIT!”(Return of the Jedi, ID4 etc)

-Spock vs Khan fight in the future city (Blade Runner/Total Recallx2/5th Element/Attack of the Clones/Minority Report)

-Tron Legacy like spacesuits

-villain gets all the big shots in one room and attacks it with a helicopter (Godfather III)

-Khan wanting to be caught and orchastrating events whilst imprisoned ‘its all part of the plan’ (joker in TDK/Loki in Avengers/Silva in Skyfall/Lector in Silence)

-Khan vague origins this time (again like Joker in TDK)

-still not at the point of original series until the end (similar to CraigBond not being totally Bond until the end of his 2nd film Quantum of Solace)

925. kietero - May 17, 2013

@923

I think you hit a perfect example, right on target.

We only know so much about Khan. He was from India, from a time when the country still belonged to England (so having a white guy born there is completely plausible in my opinion via historical facts) and he ruled over a percentage of the Earth (where, exactly, we don’t know – we can only guess at this point), he was defeated, convicted of war crimes and sentenced to frozen slumber in deep space.

That’s *all* we know. Everything else… is fan fiction, including the Eugenics Wars novels which was complete fan service beyond reason… well written fan service, I might add… but service nonetheless…

926. kietero - May 17, 2013

@924… same guy as 923 I think…

RE: The Klingon Moon

I was thinking the same thing! That had to be Praxis, but I couldn’t understand why it was blown up in this time rather than later on… You made yet another valid point. Good eye!

927. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I feel the room … spinning. :)

Seriously now, Khan Noonien Singh is a Sikh from Northern India.

He ruled more than a quarter of the world, from Asia through the Middle East.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

And your history is, unfortunately, way off.

India became independent from Britain way back in the mid-1940s.

>He was from India, from a time when the country still belonged to England (so having a white guy born there is completely plausible in my opinion via historical facts)

928. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Actually, the Joker and Khan couldn’t be more different.

Khan is an historical figure, as you know from watching all the Enterprise officers discuss him as one of the most famous 20th century figures in the Space Seed episode of Star Trek.

It’s right in the series, and in the script I excerpted above.

The Joker, in contrast, is an absolute unknown. No one knows his name, where he’s from, etc. He’s not in any history books.

Khan Noonien Singh ruled more than a quarter of the world.

The Joker is a cipher, an agent of chaos.

>923. Khan 2.0 – May 17, 2013
@921

” it doesn’t matter who Khan is portrayed by. We don’t know the true history behind the character and his origins. ”

like the Joker in TDK

929. Daniel Shock - May 17, 2013

number 4 clearly identifies the biggest problem with the movie. Rushed. It races though dialog and action with such speed that it feels like I’m watching a TV season on fast forward. I think he lays the blame at the wrong folks for this… the writing was not the problem. The direction was. He moves the story so fast that we don’t have time to care about any of the characters, the friendship, the betrayals, the life and death…and life. I felt no tension as the story moved forward. It would have worked better as a season of TV.

930. kietero - May 17, 2013

@927

Begs the question – how old was Khan when he ruled in the 1980s and 1990s? Remember, he was genetically engineered, with twice, thrice or more of the lifespan normal humans have. He could’ve been engineered when WWII started.

The point is, we do NOT know when exactly Khan was spawned. According to what we do know of Augments, Khan could very well have been born during the English occupation of India, before or during Gandhi’s revolution. My history is not “way off,” if one actually takes the time to understand certain facts regarding Augments and that we have almost zero history as to their origins.

I stand by what I said given what we do not know from established Trek canon.

931. bringbackkirkprime - May 17, 2013

One thing that bothers me in an otherwise extremely entertaining movie, was Kirk’s character beating on a restrained prisoner. In all the years of Trek and Kirk’s persona, I can never imagine him doing that. I could see him unlocking the prisoner’s handcuffs and fighting him, and winning, as he did against the original Khan in hand to hand combat. Also, Kirk’s new character sure seems much more fragile and weak than the original. Does anyone feel the same?

932. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

@928 – like SpaceSeed/TWOK Khan, joker had his origins all laid out in 1989 batman

in TDK hes an engima. like Khan in STID

in not choosing to mention the EWs, khan ruling the world in the 1990s etc hes become abit like Joker in TDK

problem is in 1966 the 1990s were the future. just like the 23rd century.

933. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

You’ve got this wrong, too.

Khan didn’t rule anything in the 1980s.

But I see what you are doing, you are trying to move this all back to an earlier time now that you know the British Raj ended sooner than you thought.

There was no genetic engineering capability during the period in question.

PLUS, there is the fact that Khan Noonien Singh is a Sikh from Northern India.

AND there is the obvious political fact that no white guy is going to be able to take over the lands from Asia through the Middle East in the 1990s.

The Augments were all a very mixed crew of different races and ethnicities so their leadership could be appropriate for the societies they were taking over and running.

This is all in Space Seed.

>930. kietero – May 17, 2013
@927

Begs the question – how old was Khan when he ruled in the 1980s and 1990s?

934. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

@930 – i think he was supposed to be late 30s/early 40s?

BCs kahn mentions 300 years so 2259 – 300 = 1959?? maybe khan was born then?

935. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Here is the chance of any character played by Benedict Cumberbatch running the world from Asia through the Middle East:

0.0

936. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Actually, I think you’ve got this wrong, too.

From the two times I’ve seen this new movie, I recall it being our crew guys saying that Khan was from 300 years in the past.

Not John Harrison himself.

But let’s say that’s right.

No white guy is going to be rising to political prominence in India or anywhere in that part of the world during that time frame.

>BCs kahn mentions 300 years so 2259 – 300 = 1959?? maybe khan was born then?

937. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Let’s face it.

If the producers hadn’t had to recast the part, deeply devoted fans such as yourself wouldn’t be doggedly trying to spin up how the quintessential young white Englishman actor could possibly be Khan Noonien Singh, a Northern Indian Sikh who ruled the world from Asia through the Middle East.

938. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 17, 2013

@931. bringbackkirkprime

Harrison/Khan was not restrained, although he had surrendered.

My opinion:

He did not fight back because he had no need to. He demonstrated his superiority by allowing Kirk to make a complete fool of himself (in Harrison’s opinion) without injuring Harrison at all. This was followed up by the scorn Harrison poured on Kirk in the ‘I allow it’ scene. It was only after Kirk’s attempted beating that Kirk ordered Harrison to be cuffed.

Yes, this Kirk is more (emotionally) fragile and weak than Prime Kirk. That’s the whole point. This brilliant punk needs to grow up, and this is the movie he does it in.

939. Ironhyde - May 17, 2013

So STID is Wrath of Khan shaken, not stirred.

Unfortunately, what we don’t get when the shake subsides is a Khan. I think the title-card antagonist here was by far the weakest part of the film. I didn’t see Khan in him at all. In fact, I thought he was straight-up lying when he identified himself. And I still do. That was not Khan. Not to mention, STID’s “Khan” didn’t feel like a character at all. He was a plot-piece that moved the adventure forward, with no substance, no real sense of purpose (his explanations were clumsy and quite frustratingly sounded like scripted exposition). I may be the only one, but I could have passed on Cumberbatch’s whole thing — the way he spoke, the way he acted, the way he was used in plotting, all of it. I understood Nero better than this guy. Granted, Sherlock is wonderful fun and Cumberbatch was menacingly cool in the trailers for STID. But in this new film, he is simply a cardboard cut-out of The Avenger’s far more deliberate and comprehensible villain. I was bored and annoyed when he was on-screen. I don’t care who he is as far as Trek canon. If you want me to care about this character based solely on what I know of him from other books, films, shows (as the creative team certainly didn’t do a very good job of constructing him from scratch themselves) — then at least make him recognizable internally OR externally as the same person. He’s talking mumbo-jumbo, I’m not caring. Major disconnect. Sorry.

That being said, the fact they called him Khan and didn’t just Find/Replace his name to another among the frozen Augments, stank. Of unoriginality, desperation, and wink wink wink wink wink.

Done. Take a breath. ;)

Now, with that off my shoulders, I admit I really enjoyed the ride. We could argue about packaging (lens flares, ships, characters, effects) all we want, but it’s the CONTENT of this installment of Trek that’s most wonderful. Right up there with the best of them. Let me explain.

I have always liked movies that are about me. There’s no point watching Sci-Fi that is so befuddled with it’s own mythology that I cannot see myself or my world, or issues that matter to ME in there. Star Trek always succeeded at telling stories about me. About you too, probably. About us. At it’s best, Trek is about ideas. We have a cool ship, other worlds, colourful characters but they always serve as allegories. They represent and interact as parts of the human condition, cultures, politics, emotions, our psyche. Star Trek is ultimately a spaceship wrapper for “Me”. yay. And that is what STID got soooo right.

Why do I love thee? Let me count the ways. ;)

My friend and I emerged from the theater discussing how Kirk’s actions on Nibiru would impact the native culture. Questions, theories, a good discussion of culture change and anthropology. No answers had been given within the four corners of the film, but the clarity of the carving the indigenous tribesman had put to the dirt, the impact those shapes would have on art, on development, on theology, on resource management… wow, so much to digest. But little did we know, not 10 minutes after that, we had found our way into a good, deep discussion about The United States invasion of Iraq. Acts of terrorism used by those in power (not mentioning any names, ahem, George W., ahem) to wage war with a completely separate group — even though they ultimately had NOTHING to do with each other. My friend, who might not be as well read as he should be, even learned something new about OUR world politics. And it didn’t stop there. How about Scotty refusing to sign for the torpedoes to the point of surrendering his place on Enterprise. What if he walked out of that scene and we never saw him again? What if that choice took him out of Trek forever. How very bold an ethical judgment! Profound. One of the great character moments you will ever see in Trek, I believe. And we have to ask, did that move by Scotty change anything? Flash back to Nazi Germany. How much would one concentration camp officer saying No have changed? How much COULD it have changed? And yes, my friend and I might have stopped there, but we got some bubble tea, and suddenly we were on about Uhura. “You brought me along because I speak Klingon. Let me speak Klingon.” The essence of Star Trek. Words over weapons, ideas over aggression. WOW. We had all seen the Star Trek we love in that very moment and the scene that followed. Then, as we arrived upon the massacre of the Klingons by the antagonist, we had to start talking about death. How Spock and Kirk both experienced death in this film. The difference that will make. Kirk’s old words “I’ve cheated death, tricked my way out of death, and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity. I know nothing.” … did he cheat it again? or was this a moment, the moment when he died, that will change this Kirk in profound ways? Where no man has gone before… Interesting. As Kirk died, Spock realized Kirk had needed to save him back on Nibiru because they were “friends.” At what point did they become friends? How do we define that concept? The fun my friend and I had deciding the moment that friendship became a thing was pleasant. Then questions, Why didn’t Spock mind-meld with their prisoner instead of Kirk having that boorish grunt-fest with him? Taking us back to “Dagger of the Mind” and the excitement of our first seeing the Mind Meld, the repercussions. Wow, the creative juices were flowing, how that might have changed the movie if Spock truly adopted their prisoner’s mentality in THAT way!

… I could go on all night. The ideas were there. This movie was chock full of them. And yes, the wrapping is shiny and new and there are a lot of crinkles in it and some fan-boy rips, even… but the ideas and discussion this movie inspired was as Trek as anything I’ve seen in decades.

For that alone, I want to thank the team that brought us Star Trek Into Darkness. And I will always hold it in very high regard.

940. PaulB - May 17, 2013

MJ,

Yes, you were right. Most of us had faith in Abrams, Orci, etc. after Trek’09, so we expected better from them. But YOU recognized their creative bankruptcy a long time ago, and you correctly predicted their derivative input.

Next time you predict this team will do something stupid, I’ll believe you!

941. PaulB - May 17, 2013

*derivative OUTPUT*, that is.

942. T'Cal - May 17, 2013

A couple of things about those with issues about this Khan. To those who have a problem with his wardrobe, that’s weak. He has been working for some time as a “commander” developing the USS Vengeance so his clothing was consistent for that somewhat long time role. As for Kirk and Spock not shocked by him being Khan, that’s wholly consistent with Space Seed. Khan and the Augments weren’t in the history books much at all. He was certainly no Hitler in his infamy.

Let it go. He’s Khan. And his motivation his sound. He’s not just a bad guy killing everyone like Nero or Soran.

943. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

T’Cal -

The problem is Khan is just a bad guy killing everyone. That is what they turned Khan into. Which is not what Khan is, but what we get here. The genocidal Khan, which is not what Khan was. And this why he turns on Kirk. There was no reason for it here, other than “he’s a bad guy.”

The writers confused Khan with Dalek Caan and Wolverine. Sad but true.

944. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Sorry, you’re completely wrong about that.

Scroll up to the scene from the Space Seed screenplay I placed here in which the Enterprise officers very knowledgeably discuss Khan Noonien Singh, whom they’ve been aware of for a very long time.

These attempts to spin away the big problem here are worthy of studio publicists.

>As for Kirk and Spock not shocked by him being Khan, that’s wholly consistent with Space Seed. Khan and the Augments weren’t in the history books much at all.

945. Chris Peterson - May 17, 2013

Saw it last night with the wife! Loved it! I did not think the “plot holes” were as big as some have claimed. Also, the reactor scene isn’t even close to “word for word” from TWOK.

946. Tom - May 17, 2013

It is time!! Shatner should participate in the third movie. It is one of the things that Bob and team have been unable to successfully incorporate in the alternate universe. Hopefully they get it done for the 50th. Leonard should be involved as well. They would really be a nice supplement to the great new cast.

947. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

Now, everyone who said there would be a good reason for Carol Marcus to strip down…

Can you tell me what it was?

Again, that scene I think highlights the problem with New Trek as a whole. Things are done to look nice, but there is little justification for what is going on. It’s a mockery of Trek.

948. KenT - May 17, 2013

Great film…it was a lot of fun. Star Trek movies are like visiting old friends that you haven’t seen in a long time. It was a great ride and well done. I like the fact the movie pays homage to the previous films. It was not a rip-off it was respectful.

There are so many posts it is hard to read them all but one question for the group: Did Marcus call Pike “Bruce” in the conference room?

It happened so quickly I wasn’t sure I heard it right.

949. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 17, 2013

@947. Garth Faction

Actually, I can think of one reason, although it’s a bit of a stretch….

In having Carol be so firm and business-like with Kirk while he is acting like a 12 year old, it showcases, along with Carol’s mention of her friendship with Christine Chapel, that Carol will NOT be one of Kirk’s easy conquests. This sets Carol up as a strong female character whose affection Kirk will have to earn if he is to have it at all. We may, or may not, see some of this play out in the comics, if not the next (please let there be a next) movie now that she is part of the crew on the 5 year mission.

Having said that, I still found the underwear scene gratuitous and unnecessary. Her discussion of Christine was enough to show she wasn’t going to be a pushover.

950. smike - May 17, 2013

@948: I guess he might have murmured “Chris”…

951. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

949. ObsessiveStarTrekFan

How does, “I will strip in front of you” show she is not one of Kirk’s easy conquests? He’s already getting her out of her clothing.. so quickly.

952. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 17, 2013

@948. KenT

I’ve seen the movie 5 times and I don’t recall hearing ‘Bruce’. I’m pretty certain Marcus called Pike ‘Chris’ when he asked him if he had a problem – to which Pike responded something to the affect of Mr Kirk having to acclimate to the position of First Officer (sorry, I can’t remember the exact dialogue).

953. Killamarshtrek - May 17, 2013

I made my feelings plain about the film on the first open post which Bob Orci wasn’t posting on so I’ll just reiterate. Yes it’s enjoyable, yes it’s entertaining, yes your average action movie liking member of the public will love it but as a hard core Star Trek fan there were several extremely jarring moments specifically aimed at ‘hard core’ fans (cause anyone else wouldn’t notice them) that completely distracted me away from the film so I couldn’t experience the film in the same way everyone else was.

When the Kahn reveal happened I said “yeh, yeh, whatever” out loud! But still hoping there would be an explanation why he wasn’t Indian (didn’t happen).

When Spock Skyped Prime Spock I’m thinking, show him a photo of this ‘Khan’ and then see what he says!

Through the reactor scene I’m thinking “come on this Is WAY more than homage”. Then I start hearing “better get down here, better hurry’, “you’ll flood the whole compartment”, “Ship, out of danger” and I’m seriously facepalming and then to top that I hear “KHAAAAAANNNNN” and I’m SHOUTING at the screen! I’ve never done this at a film before, I’m surprised they didn’t throw me out! Even when they put Kirk in the cryotube and ask for ‘Khan’ alive I’m shouting, what’s wrong with the blood of the augment you’ve just taken out of that cryotube?

If you could just answer me this one question please Boborci: why go to all the trouble of setting up a new timeline in order to preserve canon and then in the very next film completely ignore canon from before the new timeline? Please answer this, hopefully it will make me feel much better!

954. Bender Bending Rodriguez - May 17, 2013

I haven’t seen it yet – it doesn’t matter to me that I’ve read some spoilers – spoilers have never ruined a movie for me. Off to see it tonight.

I am just blown away by the fact that Bob Orci is taking so much time to read and respond on this website. The man is a major writer and producer and he takes the time to hang out on this site. To me it shows how much he respects the fans.

Thanks for taking the time Mr. Orci and for everything you do.

New movie sounds like fun on a bun!

955. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 17, 2013

@951. Garth Faction

She was behind him, and had told him to turn around (ie away from her). She was changing out of the dress into the flight suit and presumably trying to save time by still carrying on a necessary conversation. A mature person (not Kirk at this point) should have been able to handle that.

However, I’m not going to further attempt to defend the scene as I found it gratuitous anyway. I offered a reason why she was stripping on screen, but personally I’d rather the scene hadn’t been there.

956. marty - May 17, 2013

i knew that all the khan disciples would be beating their chest this week.. congratulations, you got what you wanted. you were right, great salutations to you and yours!

now please, go away and let the real star trek fans mourn waiting so long for another film just to be disappointed again.

first, i will say that i’m completely fine with the casting of benedict cumberbatch as khan. however, i’m not happy with the fact they didn’t explain why he was british. there was supposedly a scene cut out from the film explaining why carol marcus was british, however her father is american, so we’re all okay with that to a point. but it’s unknown if there was anything written or recorded about why khan is now british. that alone would have made this movie a ton better for all star trek fans to accept BC as KHAN(theater sound system’s bass is still rumbling).

other ‘big’ disappointing parts, or plot holes if you wish, were as follows:
*how buddy-buddy kirk is with khan, especially involving the space jump.
*the fact that not only does khan have magic blood, but that he helped marcus build and design this ship. so now he’s an expert at starship design too?
*the too many to count references to Wrath of Khan: spock yelling, how kirk died and the dialogue with spock, khan being in the movie. OKAY bob, alex, and damon.. we know you liked that movie.. stop trying to recreate it.
*the little crystals or whatever it was left behind from when a ship went to warp. the overall effect was nice, but the crystals or particles thing was unnecessary.
*the overall rushed feeling to the movie. i’m not sure if there was too much going on, or just scenes jumped too quickly to others.
*lens flares still were too many, along with bad camera work.
*lack of chekov. every character developed some.. except chekov. bones was missing something(probably too grumpy, and not ‘happy bones’), but he still was involved.
*hairless klingons

this movie will probably make a lot of money. it probably won’t make as much as ’09, but still more than wrath of khan..

with that said, this movie isn’t anywhere near the top 5 trek movies. if i were a non-trek fan, someone who’s not seen anything trek before, i would’ve liked the movie. but as someone who has seen ‘space seed’ and ‘WoK’, i felt like this movie is a HUGE rip-off and copy, and just plain lazy writing with way too much fan service thrown in.

the best 3 movies are still wrath of khan, undiscovered country, and first contact.

the voyage home was fun, but wasn’t that ‘great’. ’09 falls in line next. it brought butts to theaters, but that’s it.

generations and search for spock were okay, but david and kirk dying took them down several notches. insurrection wasn’t bad, just should’ve been an episode instead of a film.

TMP was the first try, and obviously forced out to compete with star wars, so the badness of it has to be forgiven. nemesis wasn’t all bad either.. it could use a richard donnerish cut. include deleted scenes in a re-release and it would’ve been a bunch better, not to mention the fact nemesis was supposed to be the first of a two-part movie to end ‘TNG’. data dying at the end was pointless.

the final frontier was poorly made. remember when kirk beams up to the klingon ship where spock is captain? it seemed like there was a huge part missing. or how about when spock, kirk, and mccoy are boot-rocketing in the jefferies tube? deck 75?

with scope and spectacle, i’d put into darkness at the top. effects are still awesome. with the general story/rogue admiral trying to start a secret war, whilst enlisting then blackmailing on a genetically enhanced warrior from 300 years ago, then said warrior seeks revenge on him and everyone else. is still plausible in the land of star trek because it reminds me of undiscovered country or insurrection, or many other episodes of all the series.

however, the rehashing and reusing of everything i’ve mentioned.. along with the magic blood and the overall rushed feeling take this movie down to ‘final frontier’ levels.

i really do hope other than the actors, special effects/cgi, and musical score that no one(jj/damon/alex/boborci) returns for ’16. they’ve completely trashed the star trek canon. unless they promise to fix everything for ’16, then i’d say STAY AWAY and DON’T COME BACK!.

like i said before, they completely nullified everything that happened in our beloved star trek universe before. having leonard nimoy involved just to say ‘old canon is still alive with him’? actually, no, it was destroyed when nero showed up and destroyed the kelvin.

the needs of the trekkies outweigh the needs of the general public. for this to be a good star trek film, trekkies have to approve. and it’s pretty obvious that they don’t.

957. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

954. Bender

I wish he would respect the fans more by giving us better films. I think he works good on series, like Fringe, but he is all show, all style, no substance when it comes to films. I was hoping this would be better than the first. I hate to say it, it was worse. It felt dead to me. The actors felt dead (save for Weller and Cumberbatch, and Cumberbatch felt like he was dying). This doesn’t come from the plot problems, just the overall direction and style- life has been drained out of ST by a vampire. That’s what the direction felt like.

And the plot itself: all over the place. Inconsistent. Wolverine-Dalek hybrid for Khan which entirely misunderstands Khan. Egads.

958. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

955. ObsessiveStarTrekFan

Again, I don’t find that compelling. She didn’t need to do it in front of him. It was just a ridiculous scene on top of everything else ridiculous in the film and it represents the whole spirit of the film. We have images we want to show, to make the audience excited, but who cares if it is consistent or respectful of anyone.

And in other sci-fi shows, many would say she should be mature enough, if she has to change in front of someone, not to be ashamed.

959. James Sawyer - May 17, 2013

I haven’t read every spoiler… But I did become aware of the John Harrison is Khan thing (kinda hard not to with the moronic staggered worldwide release for a film with a big surprise twist…). I am honestly glad I did though, as that is a pretty big letdown for me. I was sincerely holding out hope that we would see something original in this one, or at least beefing up a previously “lesser” villain. Better to be prepared for a dis appointing twist than to be blindsided by one (like in Iron Man 3).

I am not in a rush to see it now. Probably check it out at the drive-in in the next few days.

960. Jay - May 17, 2013

This was a great film. And a great Star Trek film.

The tie ins and script-flips from TWOK were great, and make perfect sense in an alternate timeline. Sure they could have spent another 30 minutes explaining the butterfly effects that led to everything nitpicker’s want to complain about – but would anyone else (non-trekkers) really care? No. So there was no point. Just like the deleted scene explaining Carol Marcus’ British accent. Uneccessary. Trekkers should be able to use their imagination and figure out how things have changed to lead to the events in this movie. Do you really need it spoon-fed to you?

Just like with James Bond, Planet of the Apes, etc. flipping dialog and scenes from the earlier version of this story to me was brilliant. Very well done and believeable.

961. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

when you think back it was obvious it was going to be KHAN….all the hints and signs in the trailers, publicity material and news reports gave it away long ago:

1 benico Del Toro being almost cast (then a bunch of latino actors before BC )

2 Carol Marcus

3 the reactor scene glass hands on the trailer

4 another starship facing off against enterprise in the trailer

5 the revenge / I have returned stuff in the teaser trailer

6 the “beyond the [b]darkness[/b], beyond the human evolution…lies the beginning of [b]vengeance[/b]” reference to the original TWOK trailer
http://trekmovie.com/2013/04/16/shot-by-shot-analysis-of-star-trek-into-darkness-domestic-theatrical-trailer/

7 the fact that Khan is Trek’s favourite villain as was The Joker for Batman, saving him for part 2 hence after the first film had a less known villain (as the writers said they were following the Batman Nolan Dark Knight way of doing it). Saving the best known villain for part 2 (see TWOK, TDK, ST:FC, Sherlock 2)

8 the cryopods seen in trailers and pictures

9 that “I am better…at everything” reference in trailers

10 the ribbed colar of his jacket, being highly reminiscent of Khan’s TWOK outfit
http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/12/tenutoblog-making-the-case-for-identifying-the-star-trek-into-darkness-villain/

11 the fact that he was into genetics, as seen in the London preview sequence

12 it had been listed in the IMDB for almost a year that he was Khan

13 this poster:
http://i2.cdnds.net/13/12/618×917/movies_star-trek-into-darkness_poster.jpg

when you look at the original Trek II poster -its not a million miles away from it – similar sepia colour. armed Kirk/Spock/female/main Villain (only the heroes are more prominent than the villain this time):
http://www.joblo.com/posters/images/full/1982-star-trek-ii-the-wrath-of-khan-poster1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PB5KF2o.jpg

14. Botany Bay cameo at end of ST09 (scrapped but enough to see it was on writers minds)

15 this TMcom article from a year ago:
http://trekmovie.com/2012/04/30/major-star-trek-sequel-spoilers-confirmed/

have i missed any?

962. Damian - May 17, 2013

Saw the movie last night for the first time. I actually liked it better than Star Trek (2009). Whereas that film felt more like Star Wars, this one had more Star Trek to it. My early judgment places it 4th (behind TMP–which will always be my favorite, that was the movie that made me a Trekkie, believe it or not, TWOK and First Contact–the Borg were the best villain ever conceived IMHO). My middle movies tend to fluctuate though.

First observations–it’s obvious JJ Abrams has matured as a director. In the last film everything was lens flare and shaky camera. I left that film with a serious headache. In this film, while there is still plenty of JJ, it’s almost Abrams with a small dose of Ritalin. The lens flares were noticeably toned down and there were numerous scenes that were nice and steady. The flares and shaky camera were reserved more for action scenes and they are absent when appropriate.

Also, I think it’s it’s clear the team was listening to the fans. While a brewery for engineering is never going to work for me, at least there was a recognizable warp core this time. Also, I noticed the “window” on the bridge was reduced in size to something more reasonable. I still think it’s bizarre to have a window as opposed to a view screen, but projections on the window (i.e. ship to ship communications) were much more clear this time.

Finally, they did a great job with Scotty. I know a lot of us here were concerned he was going to be the “odius comic relief guy”. In this movie, Scotty is much more. He stands up to Kirk and Starfleet at one point and while there is still enough comedy to the character, he has an equal number of serious moments. I was pleased to see that.

I felt different coming out of this film compared to Star Trek (2009). While I thought that had a good story, there were a number of things, particularly with set design, that bugged me. No so with this film. I really think the team took a lot of what we said to heart and made adjustments, nothing that would impede the story, just things to tighten it up and make it more recognizable to Star Trek.

I do, however, have a few beefs:

1. Did it have to be Khan? That seemed so unnecessary. I was really into the character as John Harrison. That pulled me out of the story, if for no other reason, he looks NOTHING like Montalban.

2. Magic Blood, really. As a Star Trek fan, I’ve learned to suspend disbelief over the years. But magic blood. My first thought was, if his blood was magical, you have 72 other supermen frozen on the ship. Couldn’t they have used their blood? Also, magic blood??? Where did that come from. There had to be a better Maguffin than that. He never had that before. Did Section 31 have something to do with that? It made no sense.

3. Kirk’s death scene. Some of it was ok (like Kirk saying he was afraid and him relating why he saved Spock). Tweaking the dialogue a little probably would have made it less obvious, as it was, much of it seemed a rip off of TWOK, not an homage. Also, Spock screaming “Khan” actually made me snicker a little bit, and I’m sure that’s not the effect the team was looking for.

4. Finally, Nimoy is great, but his cameo just didn’t work for me. It seemed force. While in Star Trek (2009) his role was necessary to maintain continuity, here it really did seem like fan boys who wanted to get him in at all costs. Frankly, I would have almost preferred an Archer cameo. Enterprise was cancelled just as it found it’s legs and it would have been a nice send off for Archer (as opposed to TATV). And Bakula is just such a nice guy who has always spoken well of Star Trek, trekkies and his place in the Star Trek universe. It would have been a nice reward for a guy who “gets it” for lack of a better word.

Otherwise, I thought it was a great Star Trek film. I was pleasantly surprised to see Section 31 was used. I never thought this team would use something from one of the spin-off shows in such a significant role. That showed fans that Orci and Kurtzman were hardcore fans, not just of TOS, but of all the shows, including DS9 and Enterprise. And the Vengeance, while something Starfleet officially wouldn’t endorse, is exactly something Section 31 would do. And Admiral Marcus is exactly the person who would be part of Section 31. It showed me they didn’t just use Section 31 in name only, but understood how the organization was written in the past and this was entirely consistent with that.

Seeing the NX-01 among the models was a nice homage to Enterprise and showed I think, once and for all, this alternate universe did in fact spring from the prime universe, since Enterprise is the only show left that would be unaffected by incursion.

963. somethoughts - May 17, 2013

#818

Me :)

964. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

The thing is, this felt more like Star Wars than the first, to me.

What Khan used to attack Star Fleet reminded me of Slave 1.
The “can we fit” scene was a Han-Solo kind of scene.
Section 31 is the Emperor’s battle plans…

Yeah.. too much Star Wars..

965. Damian - May 17, 2013

One lens flare beef though. There was a scene where Dr Marcus is talking to her dad and there’s a big ole flare covering her face. You DON”T cover Alice Eve’s face with a lens flare. EVER.

966. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

818. BotanyBay – May 17, 2013
Is it just me, or do I remember the idea of Khan being awoken first by someone other than the Enterprise being a popular sequel plot theory around here a few years back. I also swear I remember someone mentioning him being integrated into starfleet and working with Kirk in this timeline. Whoever said that stuff was on the money in a lot of ways

was it this?

another Federation vessel (Reliant) led by Captain Decker (stephen Collins) finds the botany bay and gets totally POWNED by Khan who kills everyone and steals the ship (basically what wouldve happened in Space Seed had Khan not picked on Captain Kirk – and obviously what did happen in The Wrath of Khan)

Khans federation ship venters into klingon space and is attacked by klingons scout ships, Khan destroys them and captures a klingon BOP which he then comendeers (shades of Star Trek III and the ‘Enterprise’ augments episodes) and then uses it to attack Federation ships/colonies – inciting a war between the federation and the klingon empire (kind of like Star Trek VI in that respect as well as the ‘Enterprise’ augments 3 parter)..his ultimate aim to have them wipe each other out so he becomes ruler of the galaxy. (lots of talk about destiny, how they fled earth for this purpose etc)

Kirk and crew are given the task of sorting it all out against a back drop of epic space battles (Federation ships vs klingon cruisers and BOPs, Enterprise vs Reliant etc), possibly include some Genesis/red matter style mcguffin, intrigue/ mystrey/twilight zone eeriness, discovering who khan is, subtle hints that this has all happened before and differently (possible Nimoy cameo) – eventually revealing to the Klingon High Command that Khan is behind it, ends with Kirk and Khan finally confronting each other and engaging in an epic fight, Khan eventually marooned somewhere (not killed)

so itd be kind of 2 villains like in The Dark Knight – Khan who is a nutjob psycho causing a heap of trouble (joker) and Klingons who arent that aggressive to the Federation at the start but due to khan stirring s**t up become a really formidable enemy (Harvey Dent)

all plays out differently to Space Seed and TWOK (but with the odd similarity/homage) – no Khan wanting revenge against kirk etc so it wouldnt really be another khan like villian out for revenge (which is what Nero was), no Genesis, maybe throw Carol Marcus in there as Kirks love interest. Familier klingons like Kor, Kolath, Kang, Kruge, etc

Have the ‘No Country For Old Men’ bad guy as Khan. Plus get some A list stars to boost popularity and box office overseas – Arnie as the Klingon Emperor? Harrison Ford as the head of starfleet? Russel Crowe as Kruge? Reese Witherspoon as Carol Marcus?

regarding Khans origins – maybe have a flash back scene or even a prologue showing him created/Eugenics wars in the 1990s – interesting dilema of how to handel the 1990s issue with canon etc – maybe just mention it but not be time specific…i.e. it happened sometime in earths past and let the (non trekkie) audience assume its sometime in the 21st century (post 2012) but have nothing to suggest it wasnt the 1990s (so as not to upset us fans whod scream ‘CANON VIOLATION!’)…like in the Enterprise Augments 3 parter (even Khan is mentioned) but no mention of the actual year……or as in the Cox books have Khan and TEW as having happened discreetly (as we know the novels do sometimes influence on screen canon). Could probably delve into the origins of the klingons too (as theit origins havent really been touched upon in any series) also the Klingons could find out the DNA that caused their race’s mutation is the same DNA in Khan and his people (see ‘Enterprise’ season 4) therefore causing further friction

funnily enough early reports about The Wrath of Khan erroneously said Khan was leader of the klingons….plus in Trek II khan mentions the old klingon proverb…maybe that was a prelude to a tantalising glimpse into another reality where he is their leader or adversary?

and to those who say “meh no Khan as its been done already/it lacks originality/go with something totally new etc’..well then why bother having Kirk and Spock etc in the new films either? – dosnt that show a lack of originality? – the star trek universe is a big place, surely they couldve/shouldve gone with an all new crew on a new ship….

Wrath Of Khan is the most popular, enduring ST movie of them all. the template that most of the other movies followed so itd make sense to capitalise on Trek 09s success with the most recognisable/popular villain for the sequel, done a new and different way – like TDK did with the joker or Sherlock 2 with Moriarty, or ST FC with the borg – ST09 was sort of taking its cue from the Batman reboot(set up with not so well known villain so no overshadow the main characters introduction) so id expect them to follow doing similar stuff with the sequel (I.e. hit everyone with the most well known villain for the sequel – in the ST09 dvd commentary they even said there was a Botany Bay ending discussed – which wudve been very sim to the joker card in BB. It showed Khan was on their minds anyway)

Why bother saving Khan for a 3rd or 4th when if the 2nd isn’t that great – dosnt engage audience due to weak villain etc there wont even BE a 3rd or 4th

Also Khan hasn’t been exactly overused – 1 episode and 1 movie – and it cant be the madman TWOK version of Khan out for revenge anyway (which is pretty much what Nero was)

i guess they could do klingons only for star trek ‘2′ and set Khan up for the villain for Star Trek ‘3′ (something similar to the way the joker was set up at the end of Batman Begins) but itd be much better if the combined them into one movie and focus on another classic villain for the 3rd film in 2015 (e.g. the borg )

967. porthoses bitch - May 17, 2013

Am I seeing things or is one of the ships on Marcuses desk (first one, I think) Thunderbird 1 ?

Ok, maybe Im hearing things or maybe it’s Peter Wellers delivery… but when Marcus is speaking of Harrison he begins a line with “Data says……” something about the way he says Data warrants a capital letter. I know Im not the only one who went there as there was a audible “hmmmmm” in the theater.

968. TerranGuy93 - May 17, 2013

For me the film is #6 in my Trek list and tied with Generations. Its watchability sets it above some of the others, though at least several of the ones at the bottom had new ideas.

The use of Khan irritated me only because it was a symptom of the bigger problem with the movie.

GENERIC as heck.

You could replace 95% of the sets, action, dialogue, special effects, and characters and the movie would barely be different.

Not to mention, so many dropped plot threads and plot holes.

I originally planned to see it a couple of times, but I probably wont and its doubtful I’ll buy the blu-ray when it comes out.

969. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

@966 wasnt it Pike who said ‘Data?’ (i may be wrong)

970. thx1138 - May 17, 2013

I am a 42 year old Star Trek fan who has seen every episode of every series (TOS and Enterprise and my favorites) as well as all the films and I just want to say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for giving me back MY Star Trek!!! :D

971. Khan 2.0 - May 17, 2013

soryy @967

972. James McFadden - May 17, 2013

why is there a gap in the saucer section of the USS Vengeance? is it a hidden weapons emplacement or something?

973. Jeffery Wright - May 17, 2013

Thoughts, supplemental:

Harrison could have not been Khan… Kahn, it could have been hinted, was one of the frozen criminals and this would have not affected the movie at all.

In fact, this could have have lent the movie a bit more credibility in the eyes of fans and generated more anticipation for future installments.

The Leo Nimoy appearance seemed pandering and unnecessary.

I really liked the realization of contemporary London and how the ordinary every day feel of living there was portrayed.

There seemed to be a lot of extra sound effect during the space jump scene, I prefer how JJ handled the ‘in space’ sound in the first movie, as in none, but a small detail in an otherwise very dramatic segment.

As far as Carol’s delicate underthings scene? Not unbelievable and not an unwelcome glimpse of the goods; hot space chicks are a Trek, and a generally sci-fi staple.

I like the Starfleet costume designs that are very reminiscent of TMP duty uniforms, which I always felt were under-rated.

Transwarp beaming was first seen in TOS, I’m sure we all recall Assignment: Earth?

Anyway, as a self proclaimed Trek purist, I have created a special compartment to contain my appreciation of NuTrek. I recall not being entirely on board with TMP when it came out. I did entirely embrace both TNG and ENT with enthusiasm, though. I can’t say the same about DS9 and VOY, however.

I can safely say with certainty that I appreciate NuTrek far more than anything from Star Trek: Deep Snore Nine & Star Trek: Lost In Space.

974. porthoses bitch - May 17, 2013

@(968 it might have been, thats what I originally typed. Going again today will try to note. Was it ever mentioned how long Data has been in Starfleet.? Just because we never saw him till STTNG doesnt mean he wasnt there.

975. Jerry - May 17, 2013

I think that the race issue with Khan isn’t a big deal when you factor in Section 31s involvement. Since they changed his name you can assume that there was a off screen explanation as to why Batch didnt look much like the old Khan. They probably altered his apperance so no one who studied history would reconzie him . Simple as that.

976. govna - May 17, 2013

I can’t put my finger on it. I just can’t. My asked if i liked the film. I couldn’t give her a clear answer. It was a good movie. And I voted ‘good’ in the poll. But I have an empty feeling. Some unexplainable, as-of-yet unidentifiable feeling of disappointment.

Other people’s gripes that i dont mind include:

1)Spock Prime…his appearance worked for me…but they cheated and didn’t show on film how the transmission ended. After Spock Prime says, “At great cost” (or similar) I believe the scene cuts away.

2)Also, i dont mind Kirks death being portrayed as a reversal of Spock’s death in TWOK. Together, these two death scenes cozily bookend the Spock/Kirk friendship.

But as i told my wife, when it come to this film, there’s so much to talk about and yet….hardly anything to talk about at the same time.

There are great character moments and true dramatic moments. But theyre overshadowed by the abundance of action. Maybe the drama is made to serve the action scenes. It should be the other way around.

That’s just how i feel now. I remember my instant, walking out of the theater reaction to ST09. I was so excited. I literally couldn’t WAIT to see the movie again. Bottom line, I did not feel excited after seeing STID. I will see the film again…and maybe my feelings will change. But that’s my initial…gut…reaction

977. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Well. This was fun. Star Trek Into Darkness was a well made movie. I give it a A-
Pine did a fantastci Job.
Quinto also did great.
Urban. Channeld De Kelley. I hade to do a few double takes to make sure it was not DEE kelley.
Saldona did a good Job on Uhurah.
Yelchin did ok.
Cho is on his way to be a Captian.
Simon Pegg was a good Scotty.
Alice Eve was a Sexy Carol Marcus.
Cumberbatch was Incredible as Khan.Er John.

978. Jerry - May 17, 2013

Since the producers come to this site they may want to read this. Why not some Andorians or Tellarites next time. If not main characters then at least in the back round some where. Sure you got some tribbles in there so far. Why not the old Blue guys and pig nose dudes. They are very important to the Federation.

979. James McFadden - May 17, 2013

will we see more Romulans and Klingons in Star Trek 3?

980. porthoses bitch - May 17, 2013

@ 971 I don’t know but aerodynamically it obiviously don’t do jack.

If I have one complaint with STID is that Ben Burrt keeps Borrowing from his other projects. Almost all of his pod race sounds from SWPM constantly turn up.

981. Aurore - May 17, 2013

“Now, everyone who said there would be a good reason for Carol Marcus to strip down…

Can you tell me what it was?”
___________

I thought there would be a good reason for the scene.

If such is not the case, the question is best directed at the people who decided to include it in the movie, though ; I’m a “hater” not a director, dammit!

:)

982. BotanyBay - May 17, 2013

@965.
Yeah, I do remember that one. Seems like it hit a lot of notes that the actual sequel did hit. Although I’d say Into Darkness is even more “original” and less Space Seed/TWOK

983. Jerry - May 17, 2013

I hope with Dr. Marcus still aboard, we will get to see baby David Marcus next time. Perhaps his birth this time around not this death.

984. Jerry - May 17, 2013

Mark my words, the next movie will be either the big war with the Klingons, or since they are on their 5 year mission, they will find a new life or big thing like an advanced race or the doomsday machine or something like that they have to fight but relize its not bad like Ve’ger.

985. Spiked Canon - May 17, 2013

Me thinks @Boborci isn’t handling the criticism from “the fans” well. What did you expect Mr. Orci when you didn’t have the writing balls enough to stick to humble references as opposed to stealing what had already been written. I can deal with all the little nuances of the film because it’s a movie and I liked the explosions etc. What I can’t get over is the lazy script writing.

PS thank you for revising the Trek Universe…You will always be remembered for that, but please move along with JJ and let some intelligent scribes have a shot.

986. govna - May 17, 2013

What is Admiral Marcus’s motivation? Why is preparing for war? Why is he so concerned with the lack of offensive and defensive capabilities? What is his main insecurity? What are the roots of his strong feelings? Is he a “bad guy” or has he been driven to be “bad”

I’ll try to get to the bottom of that on my second viewing. But for now….it’s unclear to me.

987. Floatyworm - May 17, 2013

If only they had let Kirk die…….and left us hanging for the next sequel. That would have been better IMO….and unexpected. Then they could have traveled back in time(Guardian of forever) to fix everything…..Save Vulcan, Kirk in the next movie. Would be awesome to see the Federation / Klingons war over the Guardian of Forever.

988. Patrick - May 17, 2013

@BobOrci,

I was born a couple of months after the debut of TNG, and I grew up watching Trek, particularly the first six movies, on VHS. I’ve seen every film in the theater since Generations. I can’t remember ever not being a fan of Trek.

I am not exaggerating when I say I used to watch about 2 of the original six films per week…every week…when I was a kid. I had them memorized, especially The Wrath of Khan, which was my favorite. But one disadvantage of growing up with those films at such an early age is that the emotional impact of Spock’s sacrifice didn’t affect me as it did the original audience.

In Star Trek Into Darkness, I finally got to experience that moment with all the emotional significance it deserved. And seeing the ship rising out of the clouds, it hit me that in spite of growing up with Trek… That is MY Enterprise.

Thanks to you & everyone else involved for giving that to me. LLAP

989. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Next Star Trek Movie should be about.
The Doomsday Machine.

990. William Shatner - May 17, 2013

They should have had William Shatner make a cameo to play radiation-exposed Kirk in engineering.

991. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Ok. Next Movie should be about.
Space Hippies. With a Twist of Spock’s brain.

992. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

985. govna

Well, what do you expect, with a movie which reads like it was a combination of X-Men (Wolverine healing powers), Dalek Caan (exterminate all lessers), and Godlikeproductions (Nibiru, conspiracy theory explanations for everything)? The motivation is:

“There will be war, it is inevitable, so I am going ahead, staging a false flag to get it started, and I can be the hero who takes control of the Federation.”

993. Spiked Canon - May 17, 2013

govna…some of that is explained in the prequel comic…they do that instead of just effing telling you in the movie. going back for the 3rd time today to see if I can figure it out…lets hope they have deleted the warp core scene before I get there

994. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Finally. Let’s go back to.
Tomorrow is Yesterday.

995. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

All Kidding Aside.
I would love to see them do a Movie based on the Alternate Mirror Universe.
Long Live the Empire.

996. Michael Towns - May 17, 2013

Are we close to 1000 yet?

997. Michael Towns - May 17, 2013

Not yet.

998. porthoses bitch - May 17, 2013

Also to note is the pronounciation of “Day-ta” as opposed to “Dah-ta”

999. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Oh so Close.
Anyone want to play 1,000 Question’s about Star Trek.

1000. Michael Towns - May 17, 2013

How about now?

1001. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Star Trek. 1,000

1002. Michael Towns - May 17, 2013

Yay!

1003. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

@989 funny :)

1004. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Anthony. Are you falling asleep at the Wheel.
Live Chat is not in Transwarp yet.
This Thred is still going.

1005. Chain of Command - May 17, 2013

I was not surprised he was Khan and this was almost exactly how I predicted this film to go and how Khan would be used/introduced (Khan being awakened by someone else and also used by Star Fleet, etc.). However, my predictions didn’t take away from the “fun factor” of seeing the film. Nothing will ever beat “The Wrath of Khan”, but this film was a lot of fun.

My only “gripe” about the new films is the “look” of them. Like the “Star Wars” prequels, there is almost too much on screen. One thing that I think people never talk about in terms of what made “Star Trek” great in the first place was how the production teams of the time made a great deal out of very little. I kind of miss the days where I had to let me imagination fill in the missing details.

1006. Guido - May 17, 2013

I saw the movie last night and there is so much I’d love to say about it but I can’t find the words except, BEST STAR TREK MOVIE EVER!!

1007. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

can’t wait to read the sequel comic so Orci can clean the messes up.

“Khan use to be of Asian(Indian) descent but had to have plastic surgery after the accident with the mechanical Rice picker”. Of course it happened after he was unfrozen because Nero didn’t change the time line before he was frozen the first time

“Spock was crying at the warp core because the android on the bridge attached an emotion chip to his brain”

“Kirk didn’t question the need for 72 torpedoes because there were 71 asteroids between the neutral zone and Kronos that had to be blown up first”

anyone else?

1008. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

“Marcus didn’t realize that he needed a bigger ship until He woke Khan up and Khan saw a big ass space shark float by”

1009. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

“Uhura had to stun Khan multiple times when he had been stunned before with one shot because in all the excitement she forgot to charge her gun”

1010. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

“London has floating cars and San Francisco has wheeled cars because the EU has banned Tires due to them causing global warming”

1011. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

The whole issue with Khan and stunning is that if Khan had this super-human healing factor, Kirk would not have taken him out so easily in TOS. This is again another indication of creating a power out of thin air which makes no sense.

Nonetheless, I can say why they didn’t try to use the blood of someone else: we don’t know if their genetic outlook created magic blood. They might have other mutant powers like teleportation or laser-eyes… not useful in this situation. Ask Professor X.

1012. BatlethInTheGroin - May 17, 2013

#973: Data’s history before TNG is well-established, and he didn’t exist yet in this timeframe.

1013. James - May 17, 2013

Okay, I haven’t read all of this thread as I don’t have that much time in my day, but I do have a question? Marcus when speaking to Kirk mentions the fact that Pike recruited Kirk, then says, he never told you who recruited him. Obviously it had to be Kirk’s father. But I’m guess the resolution to that line was left on the cutting room floor so to speak. My curiosity about this piece of plot is further heightened by the fact that Chris Hemsworth is in the credits at the end. So was there a scene, a flashback that we didn’t get to see?

1014. BatlethInTheGroin - May 17, 2013

#984: You’re smarmy, condescending and rude. You move along. I’d rather keep Orci.

1015. James - May 17, 2013

Oh, typo, meant to say “But I’m guessing the resolution”

1016. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

1012. James

Actually I thought Marcus was saying he recruited Pike…

1017. Unbel1ever - May 17, 2013

It’ll be interesting to see how they fix trans-warp beaming. A technology, which causes the entire plot to be absurd. I mean, why send a ship to fire torpedos from a long distance at a target, when you just can trans-warp beam it there?

If a war were to happen between Klingons and the Federation, Starfleet could just beam a couple of nukes on all Klingon colonies and planets from basically anywhere and be done with it. Stargate fixed that problem by saying that the Stargate is fixed in location an there isn’t one on every planet. So they had a reason for starships. In nuTrek that reason is gone except perhaps for long range exploration (which we will not get to see anyway).

1018. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

1013 why do you want me to move along. IMO the writers were lazy on this film and JJ made a good movie despite that. Sound familiar? What did you think of transformers? Looked great hunh? Story sucked though didn’t it? Prometheous looked damn good didn’t it? What did you think of the story? Just because it’s Trek doesn’t mean you have to lay back and enjoy it…

That being said. Leaving in 2 hrs to see it a 3rd time. Your’re welcome Bob ;-)

1019. govna - May 17, 2013

@1012

Marcus was implying the HE recruited Pike. Not Kirk’s father

1020. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 17, 2013

@1008. spiked canon – May 17, 2013
“Uhura had to stun Khan multiple times when he had been stunned before with one shot because in all the excitement she forgot to charge her gun”

I’m pretty sure Khan faked it first time around…

1021. cpelc - May 17, 2013

@947 -

She was prepping to go down to the planetoid with Bones. You can’t easily fit a skirt inside a flight suit that has pants.

1022. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

1016. Great point. How can we fix it in the sequel comic?

“It was discovered shortly after the 5 year mission started, Trans-Warp causes a rip in the fabric of space and the technology is outlawed forever.”

1023. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

The Next Mopvie should be about Data’s head found in Sanfrancisco.

1024. Ken - May 17, 2013

The Cumberbatch casting issue is a very valid criticism and complaint.

Why?

From a strictly storyline point of view, Kahn’s antics on old Earth predate the change to the timeline, so his appearance should be the same.

From a filmmaking standpoint, I don’t advocate needing to cast an exact Montalban look alike, but there should have been some attempt to allow us to suspend our disbelief. For example, Pine looks passingly enough as Shatner’s Kirk that we can suspend disbelief and enjoy. Same with Quinto. But, Cumberbatch? As someone else wrote here….if it is Just about the acting, then why not cast Meryl Streep as Kahn? Or how about Daniel Day Lewis? Or how about Samuel Jackson? Or how about Christoph Walz? If you’re chuckling as I write that, then my point is made….they are nothing like Kahn. Same with Cumberbatch. IF they were intent on using him, there should have been some storyline point about why he looks so different. If you weren’t chuckling, then I still stand by my point.

I’m not a film maker, but this is Lazy film making and sloppy. I love JJ and I love his team. Looking at any of their previous work, anyone can tell they are definitely NOT lazy. They are good. I had A LOT of problems with the first Trek reboot, but this Cumberbatch casting is an apocalyptically bad decision on their part, which is either due to laziness (which doesn’t make sense, considering all of their track records) or a lack of caring about the source material.

If not JJ, then Lindelhoff should have been better than this.

Honoring the past doesn’t happen by simply throwing in a few Easter eggs.

I was completely open to this alternate time line idea, but now I’m hoping someone makes a movie where Nimoy resets things back to normal and we move forward with a new crew in the Prime timeline.

1025. Thorny - May 17, 2013

I very much enjoyed “Into Darkness”. More so than “Star Trek 2009″. I do think it went a little over-the-top in its homage to “Wrath of Khan” in Kirk’s death scene, though. If I were rating the movie, I’d give it 3 1/2 stars out of 4.

Idle thoughts…

I was still on the fence about whether or not Harrison was really Khan, but Reuters spoiled it by identifying Cumberbatch as playing Khan in a story about the expected $100 million box office this weekend. It wasn’t even a review of the movie, and Reuters spoiled the Khan surprise.

I’m still not thrilled about Cumberbatch being Khan. He just didn’t seem like Khan. He was a great villain, but he didn’t seem like Khan. And the story really didn’t need to be Khan at all. It could have simply been Section 31′s attempt to revive Khan-era biotechnology to breed super-soldiers. It didn’t need to be Khan himself.

I would have preferred the ending to be a retelling of “Space Seed” with Kirk depositing Khan and crew on Ceti Alpha V. Khan did commit atrocities, but he also exposed and inadvertently thwarted a dangerous plot within Starfleet. Exile, not Popsicle.

Why was Chapel written out? She really didn’t need a big role, but it would have been nice to see her there helping McCoy in Sickbay, especially since she was referenced as being there in the first movie.

“Budgineering” still sucks, but the warp core was a nice re-imagining, if a little too reminiscent of the core of the Death Star.

The ceremony at the end was a bit odd. One year later was a bit late to be burying a victim, so whose flag were they folding and for whom was the Missing Man formation overflight?

1026. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

1020 and 947 in the sequel comic…

“It was discovered that Harry Mudd was on the ship and had hidden “up skirt cameras” on the shuttle?

1027. Spiked Canon - May 17, 2013

1024 The ceremony was a rechristening of Enterprise

1028. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@867. pauln6,
“they’re doing a piece on BBC Breakfast news about the lack of women in movies and the clip they showed was… Star Trek into Darkness!”

Not surprising. Wait until they start ripping it apart for its lack of racial diversity. This film looks like a fence Tom Sawyer painted.

At least they added Alice Eve, despite promptly putting her in her underwear. That must be the initiation for any woman Abrams casts in Star Trek — hope the auditions are a little more tasteful: “very nice read Miss Eve, now would you please disrobe, it’s integral to the part”.

1029. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

1027 I don’t think it can remotely be said STID isn’t racially diverse

1030. Dilithium_doublebock - May 17, 2013

Me in theater:

Please don’t be Khan, Please don’t be Khan, Please don’t be Khan . . . Aww crap.

By the end of the film:

Best Trek movie yet.

1031. Captain of the USS Lucky Charms - May 17, 2013

Bob, as much as to the crew of the USS Lucky Charms, I owe you my thanks. Great movie!

1032. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 17, 2013

I read that the 3D (and IMAX version) for STID was the best 3D seen. I must have been lucky since this was the first time I had ever seen a 3D movie and IMAX 3D (saw the IMAX version on 15 May). It was absolutely amazing.

Admiral Marcus clearly set Kirk and the Enterprise up by having the 72 torpedoes put aboard the Enterprise and sending to an apparently secluded, abandoned part of the Klingon where Harrison was hiding – except that Marcus knew that the place was crawling with Klingons. I think that Marcus expected the Klingons to destroy the Enterprise along with the torpedoes…as a prelude to war.

Two questions:
1) Did Harrison/Khan ever refer to himself as Khan Noonien Singh?
(The only person who I remember referring to Khan by his full name was prime Spock. I assume that he was shown the picture of this Harrison/Khan…)

2) Did anyone in the movie actually say that these genetically engineered people were found in the Botany Bay ship (as per the prime universe)?

This John Harrison may call himself Khan, but I do not think he is the same Khan Noonien Singh of Space Seed, prime universe, TOS.

1033. Jay - May 17, 2013

It’s funny coming here and reading the extreme minority nitpicking obsessed Trekkers complain about this movie.

The reviews are overwhelmingly good. The movie has been very well received by Star Trek fans and non-fans alike. It’s easily one of the best Star Trek movies made – which isn’t saying a whole lot since so many of them were horrible.

What’s even funnier is listening to the whiners act as if they represent some huge demographic when it’s clear they are a fringe minority. Bot Orci can’t take the criticism??? Really? almost 90% of the criticism has been POSITIVE. The movie is predicted to do more than $100m in opening weekend. It’s the best critically reviewed movie of 2013 so far. Sure it’s not perfect, but rarely is a movie ever perfect, especially one trying to please so many people.

Instead of posting 100 times on this thread trying to convince everyone that this movie is bad – or that the sky isn’t blue – get over yourself and try to find something you can enjoy.

Everyone else would like to talk about a movie that was extremely good, fun and thoughtful.

1034. Jay - May 17, 2013

#1031 I think you are reading what you want to see. It’s clear that this is Khan – the one and only Khan from Star Trek lore.

1035. USSEXETER - May 17, 2013

2009 Trek was better for ME! Movie had some good parts, but there was a copy & paste moment that turned me off. They set 2009 in an alternate universe to not be tied to 40+ years of canon, but lacked some orginality in the 3rd act. The new warp effect looked good in 3D. Overall a C-.

1036. Magic_Al - May 17, 2013

The SNL skit practically writes itself: young Spock calls old Spock every week to find out trivial stuff, every week getting the “I swore an oath never to alter your destiny, but…”

“Spock, don’t get the extended warranty on that toaster oven. It never breaks. Hell, I still have it!”

1037. Unbel1ever - May 17, 2013

1033. Jay – May 17, 2013

“I think you are reading what you want to see. It’s clear that this is Khan – the one and only Khan from Star Trek lore.”

From nuTrek lore. Because there are clearly two versions now.

1038. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

1032 I really liked the movie despite the writing. Are you saying Trek fans don’t nitpick? The fandom is well known for it.

I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I thought I was bringing brevity to the fact that the writing was bubble gum. The movie was released when it was because bubble gum sells in the summer.

I love Star Trek. I’m one of those middle aged men who credit Star Trek for developing my career choices in life. Star Trek use to be smart because of the smart writers. These writers are not smart (though 2009 was an excellent reboot). They should’ve gone with different “smarter writers for the sequel. I hope they do as they start the 5 year mission.

1039. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1028. spiked canon,
“I don’t think it can remotely be said STID isn’t racially diverse”

Unless I’m misreading your double-negatives, REALLY!?

Out of the top-billed principal cast, 9 are white, one is black, and one is Asian. Of that broad racial diversity, 9 are men, 2 are women.

Yup, that pretty much looks like a microcosm of the Earth’s demographics right there, especially what I would expect 250 years in the future. How foolish of me.

Where do you live? Mayberry?

1040. Crone - May 17, 2013

989 I just spit out my coffee. That’s brilliant!

1041. Jay - May 17, 2013

#1037 I wasn’t referring to you mainly. Someone else that has posted about 100 times about how horrible they think the movie was.

We get it. You didn’t like it. Don’t need to keep repeating it and trying to argue the point. Most people thought it was great. Move on.

It’s clear some people will never like anything that isn’t exactly like TOS.

#1034 To me it wasn’t “cut and paste”. One of the things I always liked the most when Star Trek did alternate universe stories was to see how familiar characters, or stories changed in the new universe. To me, that is what they were doing with the reactor scene. Showing how the same story, the same fate so to speak, is changed in the alternate timeline. I thought it was very well done.

1042. Aurore - May 17, 2013

“Not surprising. Wait until they start ripping it apart for its lack of racial diversity. This film looks like a fence Tom Sawyer painted.”
_______

They won’t.

Not because they should not do it . No.

They “merely” will not dare do it.

1043. Jay - May 17, 2013

#1038 Wow. You have to really try to claim Star Trek isn’t racially diverse.

It goes out of it’s way to portray a society that is racially – including aliens – diverse.

1044. Commodore Adams - May 17, 2013

@ 1029. Dilithium_doublebock Amen, Star Trek fandom needs more fans like you.

@ 1031. Keachick – rose pinenut

First 3D movie!? Welcome to the 21st century lol. Have you been hiding under a rock lol. I am not sure how young or old you are but I find older people like my mother do not like 3D but my father loves it. I am glad that you thought that the 3D was amazing, im also glad you saw your first 3D movie in IMAX.
————————————————————————————————–
AHHHHH I have yet yo see Into Darkness, I am not able to go till Saturday but it will be my, oh 23rd 3D movie. Since I am well versed with 3D movies (both shot in 3D and converted afterwards) I am very curious to see the amazing 3D touted in this movie.

3D movie I have seen. Avatar, Alice in Wonderland, Clash or the Titans, The Last Airbender, Resident Evil Afterlife, Tron Legacy, Thor, Priest, Green Lantern, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Three Musketeers, Immortals, Journey 2: The Mysterious Island, Wrath of the Titans, Men in Black 3, Prometheus, The Amazing Spider Man, Resident Evil Retribution, The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, G.I. Joe Retaliation, Iron Man 3

1045. boborci - May 17, 2013

533. BiggestTOSfanever – May 16, 2013

Can you imagine us, with all our secrecy, giving a script to “evaluators?”

The answer it is no.

1046. Crone - May 17, 2013

The magic blood thing didn’t bother me. It was obvious that there was something special about Khan’s blood when he offered to save that child- that was quickly established. I had no problem with Kirk’s quick revival; this way we won’t have to sit through “Star Trek 111, The Search For Kirk”.

1047. Garth Faction - May 17, 2013

1045. Crone

If he were not Khan, giving him Wolverine mutant powers like that would not be as problematic. But knowing how Khan was in TOS, if he had the Wolverine super healing ability, Kirk wouldn’t have been able to take him out in Space Seed. Look how difficult they made it to take him on here. Look at how Kirk couldn’t hurt him at all in this. Totally changed Khan to Wolverine-Dalek Caan. Totally wrong.

1048. Commodore Redshirt - May 17, 2013

TO: BOB ORCI
RE: ST3

I don’t know how you did it, but you were able to bring in Khan and do it in a way that worked. Well done sir.

For the next film, I am hoping you look back into Trek history for a truly awesome antagonist … The UNIVERSE ITSELF!

Often the most sublime Trek episodes had our crew facing strange and unknown phenomena that posed a risk to the survival of the Enterprise and all aboard her (and maybe even an innocent colony that was in the way). There was no “bad guy” or “evil”… just the danger of the force of the unknown on a galactic scale.

There is incredible drama in the “Man against Nature” story line… and when Nature is messing with physics and our understanding of reality it could be truly mind-blowing!

Space is infinite and the challenges in exploring it can not be underestimated. The drama of life and death set against this backdrop with your gift for original story telling would be fantastic!

Thanks again for your hard work and energy.

-David (AKA Commodore Redshirt)

1049. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1032. Jay,
“It’s funny coming here and reading the extreme minority nitpicking obsessed Trekkers complain about this movie.”

Nice hyperbole. The poll is currently 17% voting less than “Good”. Last I checked 17% was more than an extreme fringe minority. For years Apple has had less than 10% of the PC business and were considered anything but an “extreme” or “fringe” minority.

As for the polls and reviews, even those who voted “good” or “great”, or reviews rated “Fresh” in the case of RT, have numerous criticisms. Even some of the biggest proponents of the film here have at least one “exception” to their otherwise complete enthusiasm.

So I’m not sure what your point is — anybody who liked STID can’t have any complaints?

1050. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

1048 not to mention that those doing the pole would call themselves hard core trekkers

1051. bjdcharlie - May 17, 2013

# 975 I feel the same way, just can’t put my finger on it. I recall actually being bored by the story during the movie.

In some ways I loved this movie and in other ways very dissappointed.

I can’t get around the feeling that the story-telling was not up to par, and pandered unnecessarily. But other elements of this movie, like the acting and the art direction for example were breathtaking. There are many artists and technicians who contribute to a motion picture, and did so lovingly in STID. Unfortunately, i think it’s a case of the needs of the few (writers) outweighing the needs of the many (crew,cast, pre/post prod)

Regardless of what i think I hope the franchise makes a ton of money, and #3 comes soon.

1052. Jay - May 17, 2013

#1048 17% of 3300 people. You do realize that the number of people visiting this website represent at best 2% of the audience that will see STID don’t you?

So yes, a few hundred vocal complainers on a small Trek website – with due respect to Anthony – is a fringe minority.

I have watched Star Trek my whole life. I have friends and family that have watched it since it first aired. I’m the only one of those I know that even has heard of this website, much less spent any time there.

So using the polls on this site, or the number of negative nellie posters on this thread as any indication to how the Trekkers as a whole feel is dubious at best.

1053. Chain of Command - May 17, 2013

A gripe, and not about the film. Actually, this is a RANT! A rant for my fellow Star Trek fans, and not a rant about what you may think.

Here it goes:

Is anyone else tired of seeing “A film even non-trekkers (trekkies) will enjoy!” or, “Even non-trekkies will get this film!” ??????

Every time a new Trek movie comes out those are always the first (general) comments made. First off, almost every person I’ve ever met who says, “I don’t like “Star Trek”” or “I can’t get into Star TRACK” has never seen a single episode or movie. Either that or they don’t have the patience, intellect or intelligence span to read, watch or understand anything.

Second, to the “I don’t get it” crowd:

How can it (Star Trek) be hard to get? Here, I’ll sum it up for you: “Group of 7 or more characters/future astronauts are assigned to a big space ship (That’s something that travels through space….that place where the moon, sun and other stars are located) and go around exploring space. Through their travels and adventures they develop a family bond and learn more about, not only the nature of the universe, but of themselves and their place in it.”

Star Trek is not hard to get. If you haven’t gotten it over the last 45 years then who cares?

1054. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1042. Jay,
“#1038 Wow. You have to really try to claim Star Trek isn’t racially diverse.
It goes out of it’s way to portray a society that is racially – including aliens – diverse.”

I don’t have to TRY, it’s all there in black and white. Well, white mostly.

Your view of the film works perfectly if you divide it up is way:

11 mostly white male individuals in the future make all of the decision and do all of the talking and get all of the attention.

Everybody else serves a supporting role to those 11 mostly white male individuals, speaking very little if at all, and making no decisions. However, the majority of those who do speak or get any attention are also white males. Otherwise the aliens and non-white characters peppered throughout the background all make a nice snapshot for an Affirmative Action poster.

Nice picture of racial diversity. I take it back, you don’t live in Mayberry, you must live in Atlanta before Sherman marched across, and burned it.

1055. CsMisi - May 17, 2013

OK. That was a movie I enjoyed (besides the technical glitches of our theater …. grrr).
I love the fact that Khan is introduced and Benedict does an awesome job. My only problem: I want more. So I urge boborci to talk to Bryan Fuller and Many Coto and go make a live action Star Trek TV series for the fall of 2014 :)

1056. chrisfawkes.com - May 17, 2013

@1052. Chain of Command.

Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

1057. spiked canon - May 17, 2013

the writers don’t get that the warp core glass scene doesn’t endear the Trek fans. It actually irritated us. I cringed and turned away. Everything else was fine and spectacular at times. I just would like to know what @boborci was thinking…I’m done. Off to the movie again

1058. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. What was your Inspirition for using Khan in the movie.

1059. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. Any chance of seeing Space Hippies in the next movie. Lol.

1060. martin - May 17, 2013

@1012 – Chris Hemsworth and Jennifer Morrison are in the credits because as Kirk is waking up from death you hear their voices from his birth.

1061. Minnesota Bruin - May 17, 2013

My main disappointment with STID is that I can’t tune in next week for another adventure! Thank you to Bob and the cast/crew of thousands that gave us a thrilling 2 hour peek into a place we all want to visit.

1062. Eduardo Cordeiro - May 17, 2013

#973 According to Memory Alpha, Data joined StarFleet Academy on 2344.

1063. Captain Asaraiel - May 17, 2013

Saw it last night and freaking loved it. Been a Trek fan since I was a kid and I’m just about 30 now. TNG was my gateway drug, then I got into the others and TOS.

I had already been spoiled on Khan, and had guessed at Pike’s demise, so I went in as a fan, but also with my writer brain engaged. I love seeing people take something familiar and play with it. I thought that making these events causally linked to Nero’s arrival and the subsequent destruction of Vulcan was very clever, and made perfect sense. I also felt that Khan being placed in these different circumstances and reacting as he did was also sensible.

I loved flipping the warp core reboot so it was Kirk that goes in was great. It’s the same lesson that Tony Stark had to learn in THE AVENGERS: how to be the guy who is willing to lay down on the grenade when all else is lost. Like Pike told him in the first movie, “It depends on your definition of winning.”

One weakness to me was something bred of familiarity, I think. I’m not sure Khan’s background and abilities were *quite* adequately explained for new audience members. We who were familiar were fine following a lot of that, but I don’t recall any mention of the eugenics wars, which I think might have been important. Otherwise we just have that Khan and his crew were some kind of super criminals who got kicked into deep space. The Eugenics wars are kind of important to Earth’s future history in Trek, and I think new fans were done a bit of a disservice. But at a 2 hour and 12 minute runtime, I get that a larger explanation was condensed or cut down.

All in all, I think INTO DARKNESS is in my top 2 Trek flicks right now. But who knows, that might fluctuate. Point is, I loved it, and I think they did a fantastic job, and I’m dang near a lifelong fan with a bizarre encyclopedic knowledge of the franchise. I’m one of THOSE dudes. Nothing to fear from us.

Thanks Bob, JJ., everyone. You make me want a new series set in this universe so bad!

1064. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1051. Jay,
“17% of 3300 people. You do realize that the number of people visiting this website represent at best 2% of the audience that will see STID don’t you?”

I don’t know where you get your numbers, it seems to be anecdotal judging from the references of your friends and families experiences.

But my apologies, you stated “coming here” and reading the “extreme minority”. Assumed you meant those posting on this forum. However, I would say that the 17% represent at least the same percentage of the entire fan base based on the sample.

Of course in general the audience who will see this film will dwarf all of the Star Trek fans by comparison. Which is why Abrams has repeatedly said he is not making this movie for the fans. However, I’m not sure I care what someone who is not a Star Trek fan thinks. They are the same crowd that made Michael Bay’s Transformers a billion dollar franchise.

But it’s pointless to discuss this further until you have some specific numbers. Using yours so far, I can still point to 13% of all critics and audiences who did not rate it fresh, and that is far from an extreme fringe minority in any census.

My point remains, that even most of those who think this film is great have at least one criticism, no matter how small. The fact you can find no fault with this movie at all is your issue, as is your gratuitous use of hyperbole without any facts to back it up.

1065. Timncc1701 - May 17, 2013

The Rape of Khan

1066. Jack - May 17, 2013

1056. It was like a reenactment of that scene, like those things on one of those crime shows. I know, I know — TOS did that “Kirk is dead!” thing, no he’s not — before. But here it didn’t have a lot of heft because you could see the story’s gears clanking away — “See, Spock did it the first time — and now Kirk did it! See what we’re doing? Oh yeah, and friendship is awesome!!!”

The story was telling us it was supposed to have heft, and the actors sold the crap out of it — but it just didn’t work.

I also wish they hadn’t brought back Nimoy (complete with the cheesy, pixelated slow-reveal) — let Kirk and co figure it out like they did the first time. It doesn’t even work as exposition. Why not just call Khan Noonian Singh up on the computer (and find that Starfleet has erased all info of him, so Spock makes a quick detour to the ship’s historian’s station. Or else, let Khan Lite explain it, since most of his lines were Bond villain exposition anyway. In that great Slate piece with the two girls who’ve never seen Star Trek, one though he was Spock’s dad, Spock Sr. and when the other explained the time travel thing, she was pissed off, because that means Spock Sr. was revealing the future, right? Bob wasn’t there to explain the BS QM theories of multiple universes.

The reason I’d argued so vehemently that we couldn’t be certain it was Khan was because I really hoped that the absurdly obvious clues (Hispanic! Buff! Marcus!) were too absurdly obvious to be real — that these guys wouldn’t be quite so simplistic.

I’m hoping to make “Khan Lite” happen. I doubt it will.

I’m going to see it again tonight. Maybe I’ll be less angry and like it more.

1067. Thorny - May 17, 2013

1026… The Federation has really changed tradition then. Flag-folding ceremonies and missing man formations are almost universally done at funerals, not ship christenings.

1068. martin - May 17, 2013

@70 – I agree, Sybok as a rogue Section 31 agent would have been awesome. As would Sam Kirk going rogue.

but I also formally withdraw all my issues with Khan being the villain.

Having seen it twice now, I can also say that I don’t think that some of the cheese from the TWOK will stick with you. The familiarity with TWOK and knowing every frame makes this sting a bit in the first viewing, but it works better in the second. I suspect as my third viewing will be Sunday, it won’t be a problem. I did hear a few groans at the Thursday noon showing, but the Sunday afternoon showing will be a less Trek centric audience, so it will be interesting to see how it plays.

The death scene is so well done, as was the original, that each is a great scene on its own. The only caveat is Spock screaming Khan, which the Kirk scream has become a joke over the years, and if you had to have him yell it, I would have rather it be done by Kirk on the bridge of the Vengence or by Spock on the garbage scow. But it didn’t need to be there.

Those denying that Khan is Khan, are deluding themselves. Khan didn’t say Khan Noonien Singh? Can you give a reference to where Khan used his full name in Space Seed or Wrath of Khan?

As for why the Vengence has to be so large – 1) JJ must like big ships. perhaps it is due to his personal vertical challenge that he has to make up for something. — but seriously, I can think one big reason- troop movement. Movement of material and people to take planets and colonies. Also storage for large numbers of torpedos and shuttles.

1069. BeyondtheTech - May 17, 2013

Great movie. Here are my few niggles:

Kirk: “Starfleet can’t go after him, but I can.” What does this mean? He wanted to use a Starfleet ship (before they gave him a non-designated trade ship to use).

Scotty: “No specs, no signature.” Couldn’t Admiral Marcus, the head of Starfleet, override any necessary protocols to prevent that entire scene of headbutting between Scotty and Kirk?

Kirk to Chekov: “You’re my new chief.” Clearly, there has to be someone… senior in Engineering… that can run that section. Bones was a senior medical officer in ST09 and got ‘promoted’ when the chief medical officer was killed.

1070. Anthony B. - May 17, 2013

Has anyone else noticed that the whole tribble thing was perfectly set up at the end of IDW’s “The Truth About Tribbles”?

“Kirk (referring to the dead tribble): “Any sign of a miraculous resurrection, Bones?”

McCoy: “Negative. It’s gone to meet the great furball in the sky. Still, I’ll keep it around, run some tests. You never know. Might learn something useful.” ”

Never in a million years would I have thought that that would turn out to be the most crucial piece of foreshadowing for STID in the 24 comics leading up to it! boborci, I salute you. (And I love STID itself, and also the 2009 film, which it took me a while to warm up to.)

1071. Muffin CBA - May 17, 2013

Was it just me or did anyone notice Praxis the moon off Kronos was blown up already?

1072. J - May 17, 2013

1070: Provided that it is indeed Praxis

1073. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

@ 1051. Jay – May 17, 2013

“So yes, a few hundred vocal complainers on a small Trek website – with due respect to Anthony – is a fringe minority.”

Before you make such assessment, you may want to check other sites as well as official sites pages on Facebook, you will surprised by the number of people who didn’t like or enjoy the movie.

1074. Unbel1ever - May 17, 2013

1071. J – May 17, 2013

“Provided that it is indeed Praxis”

What are you saying? Do you know something? Is it the Death Star? :)

1075. M-5 Computer - May 17, 2013

boborci:
Just saw STID the second time and all the moving pierces fit together even better the second time through. Great job, Bob, et all! I have no problem with John-Khan as some do, though I agree the reveal could’ve have come at the very end perhaps. What I love best about the plot is how many cool possibilities it sets up for the NEXT movie. I have a couple suggestions for where you could (boldly) go from here:

1) It could be revealed that Kirk, Spock & Co.’s actions at the end of STID just barely prevented Marcus from helping to create (through winning an all-out war with the Klingons) the Terran Empire from the “Mirror” universe in THIS timeline. Maybe other Section 31 elements are still working to do that?

2) What if somehow the serum synthesized from Khan’s blood eventually somehow contributes to the invention of the Genesis wave? It is, after all, “life from lifelessness”, isn’t it? A more sinister twist on that is that the effect of the serum is only temporary and that this is the “cheat” that leads to the wave being discovered to be unstable. So, could Kirk’s health be at risk because of this?

…just my two cents. I know you’ll have fun writing the next one regardless!

1076. Barfco - May 17, 2013

I noticed that too about Praxis. How can that be blown up already? Even though the timelines have diverged you would think that Praxis would not blow up until the crew is older.

1077. Anthony B. - May 17, 2013

@524, 536 If “Star Trek” had been rebooted in a totally new timeline, parallel but unconnected to the previous one (as J. Michael Straczynski wanted to do at one point), anyone of any race, ethnicity or gender could have been cast as any of the characters. Indeed, JMS was thinking of making Scotty female. (Personally, I think Catherine Tate could have been a magnificent Scotty.) It’s only because the JJ-verse splits off the prime timeline in 2233 that consistency in casting becomes an issue.

1078. James - May 17, 2013

Okay, I didn’t interpret Marcus as implying that he “Marcus” had recruited Pike. But lets say that he did. Then why is the actor who played Kirk’s father listed in the movie credits? Are there deleted scenes with him in it? I still believe that the implication is that Kirk’s father recruited Pike into Starfleet, but that’s just my interpretation. Still, why the credits included an actor NOT in the movie is a mystery to me, unless it was cut.?

1079. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Right here, in the Space Seed script … (That said, I’m sure the lily white Brit is intended to be the real Khan Noonien Singh here, too.)

>Khan’s quarters]

(Khan is seated at a plain table, dressed in a red Enterprise uniform shirt, when Kirk bursts in and sits opposite him.)
KHAN: I’m sorry, Captain. I was lost in thought. My door. Locked from outside, a guard posted.
KIRK: Unusual treatment for Khan Noonien Singh.
KHAN: Excellent. You identified me with your computer system, I imagine.

1067. martin – May 17, 2013

Those denying that Khan is Khan, are deluding themselves. Khan didn’t say Khan Noonien Singh? Can you give a reference to where Khan used his full name in Space Seed or Wrath of Khan?

1080. Floatyworm - May 17, 2013

989…..

that would have been an awesome scene!!!!!! Old Shatner- bloated Capt Kirk…..one final death scene

I was kinda disappointed they didn’t radiate Kirk like they did Spock in the WOK

1081. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 17, 2013

“the writers don’t get that the warp core glass scene doesn’t endear the Trek fans. It actually irritated us.”

Who is “us”? Well, for a start, it is not me…

1082. Unbel1ever - May 17, 2013

1076. Anthony B. – May 17, 2013

“It’s only because the JJ-verse splits off the prime timeline in 2233 that consistency in casting becomes an issue.”

I’ve come to ignore the “split-off” explanation. There are just too many inconsistencies. The universes are just too different. I think of them as parallel without any connection. How else would it make sense that technology and physics are different. Races and planets are transplanted and history and characters differ. That’s something I’ve accepted and am ok with.

What I don’t like about the new approach is that it is inconsistent to itself, e.g. technologies working differently from the first movie and this one. To me world building is an important part of any SciFi and/or Fantasy story telling. If a story is not consistent to the rules of how things work it has laid down, it takes me right out of the moment. You can’t think or speculate about the characters and their world because there are no foundations you can base your thoughts on. It becomes arbitrary. This is a new universe. There is exactly one movie to take into account. But apparently not even that is possible.

1083. Tony Todd's Tears - May 17, 2013

@bobOrci

You are a brave man for coming here and facing the fans and answering their questions. I salute you.

#respect

1084. Adam - May 17, 2013

So Cumberbatch was miscast because he doesn’t look enough like Montalban: who by definition but be miscast himself as a Mexican supposed to be a Sikh. Classic.

Thank goodness there was no internet in 1967.

William Shatner doesn’t have blue eyes – does that make Pine miscast?

1085. Floatyworm - May 17, 2013

Did anyone else think Peter Weller’s character(Marcus) was actually(Joachim) from the original WOK? I kept thinking Joachim had infiltrate star fleet and this was his plan to revive Khan.

1086. MCG - May 17, 2013

Saw it a second time and I liked it even more. Same thing happened to me with the 2009 Trek. The first time, I’m a bit defensive about the things they’re changing in the canon or taken aback by the direct references to other films. But the second time I know what’s coming and I can just enjoy it for what it is. Seeing it again this weekend. :)

1087. MCG - May 17, 2013

@1085: Actually, for a time I thought maybe Weller would be Khan and Cumberbatch would be Joachim. But I’m glad they made BC Khan. My all rights, Khan should be the protagonist.

1088. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

I hope Paramount will hire new writes for the next Star Trek. Enough with this group that does nothing but repeat old stories, even when they have a whole new timeline to work on.

It took them FOUR years to come up with this new/old story, really ?? Why they felt the need to do that, couldn’t they come up with something different, something new ?

They got a talented director, a very big budget that will allow them to go anywhere in the universe & create solid story, but they didn’t.

What a waste.

1089. JRB - May 17, 2013

I saw the movie last night, was forced to see in 3D, going back soon for the 2D version.

I thought it was a fun movie, very entertaining. I watched WOK two weeks ago, and by comparision STID is much grander.

Alice Eve, Benedict Cumberbatch were excellent, overall large feeling of the movie. Alice is my new it girl. I enjoyed the reference to killing citizens without a trial even though they are off planet. I’m surprised more people are not mad about that in today’s times. Spock and Kirk’s relationship development was a bit rushed, but you saw the mutual respect develop.

I really enjoyed the filming/sets for the warp core. I always give a chuckle when I see budingeenering. My only beef with the warp core is how the one piece of the warp core got misaligned. You’d think a part like that would be fairly secure. The other is how Kirk beat on it to get it back into alignment, again I would assume that kicking it as hard as you can cannot be too good for it. Second, once he got the warp core back online you would assume it would be insainly hot in there. I guess Federation warp core’s are a perfect 72 degrees. Little things but I thought this movie’s warp core set pieces were the best of any of the ST movies.

It also seems like the shields of the Enterprise couldn’t stop a bb gun. I never saw the shields light up and stop a thing. And the Big E didn’t get off a shot during the movie.

Other little beef is how Carol Marcus bluffed her way onto the Enterprise. It seems like Starfleet needs a little better security procedures.

I realize that there was only 2.5 hours to get the story in so some characters would get short changed. Karl Urban was a bit underutilized, I thought he was cast very well in the first movie and hoped to see more of him in the second. The use of Scotty and Simon Pegg was great. The only thing there is, it seems like anybody can hop on a shuttle and get aboard a starship with little to no security.

The ass kicking that the big E took in STID, was I guess the ultimate kobayashi maru test. Even though it was well refrenced in TWOK, it was not mentioned in this movie.

In the series, all of them, we had several seasons of character development. Everybody is complaining it felt rushed, well to make money they have to rush some things especially in a 2.5hr movie every 3-4 years.

Other nit-pick, when coming back from Kronos it seemed like they were at warp for about 5 minutes before the Vengance caught up to them and knocked them out of warp 250,000 KM’s from Earth.

And my final nit-pick, it seems like the Federation can bang out Starships like Toyota Corollas. If the big E is the Flagship,and the Vengance was 3 times as big and twice as fast, I think somebody in the Federation would have known it was being built. For example, the US is the richest nation on Earth, it has 10 aircraft carriers. If it were to build one twice as big and carrier double the airplanes and triple the firepower, I think somebody besides a very select few people would know about it.

I know willing suspension of disbelief….

All-in-all a lot of fun.

1090. boborci - May 17, 2013

544 Mcflycat

Interesting idea. Could be.

1091. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1056

Speak for yourself. This Trekkie (yes, TREKKIE!) ended up being moved by it almost as much as the original scene. Post #66 explains in great detail why it did work (for some of us at least).

Your post exemplifies a peeve with some of the discussion going on here: Expressing one’s opinion as a general fact.

1092. Timncc1701 - May 17, 2013

1082 I agree. Bob Orci you have integrity to read this. Kudos for not just collecting money

1093. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

@ 1090. boborci – May 17, 2013
“Interesting idea. Could be.”

Could be ?? What that mean ? You guys wrote the script., you should know if that is the case or not.

1094. MCG - May 17, 2013

Still surprised by how many people complain about them redoing TWOK. It’s NOT TWOK. It’s Space Seed.

1095. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

@ 1094. MCG – May 17, 2013

“Still surprised by how many people complain about them redoing TWOK. It’s NOT TWOK. It’s Space Seed.”

Did you watched the movie ?? The reactor scene isthe same as in TWOK, only difference this time, that it is Kirk who is dying and it is done poorly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhcR-w-56tA

1096. TUP - May 17, 2013

Bob Orci – ignore the naysayers

I am sure some of them are intelligent. But many of the criticisms are ridiculous. I am the most critical person ever of movies that lack logic and depth and this movie was amazing.

The guy posting Space Seed remarks, the line about “something in his body won’t allow him to die” is all the canonical evidence we need. They didn’t test his blood in Space Seed. No one can say what was meant by that remark. Nothing in canon states his blood doesnt have special healing properties. And now the “owners” of Star Trek have established it. Accept it.

Every “weak” moment people pointed out felt great to me, from Scotty resigning to Kirk getting back command (which also mirrored Admiral Kirk taking back the Enterprise from Decker and busting him down to first officer).

Kirk’s death was exceptionally emotional. When Kirk punched Scotty and began that scene, I literally had chills. It was not a “rip off”, it was a homage. It was another example of this universe “righting itself” in a way (as the writers have previously said). It felt amazing to see that on screen knowing the sacrifice Kirk was making.

I only wish they had “ripped off” more of WOK with more lines in the death scene. I think the fanboys who didnt like it went into not wanting to like it. “If they rip off WOK this will suck”. So for them it did.

My buddy knew no spoilers but beforehand said “He won’t be Khan. They have to be orgional”. He looked over at me when Kirk went into the reactor. After the movie he said “I’ve never cried at a Trek movie but I was weeping. Amazing”.

My question is, what do they do for the 50th Anniversary? They’ve set up the Klingons. They’ve set up “deep space” and “unexplored space”. And yet, the 50th Anniversary begs them to do something that pays tribute to the original.

1097. Trekkiegal63 - May 17, 2013

Saw the movie on the 15th and took a day to process it before posting my thoughts…

Overall I enjoyed it. Very much so. In fact, I liked it better than the 2009 film. Which is surprising because I wasn’t expecting to like it once I read who the villain was supposed to be in spoilers.

What I liked:

Character development. The writers did an excellent job with Kirk’s growth. I loved the crew dynamics, how they felt like a family and well on their way to becoming that well oiled machine we saw in TOS.

Scotty. I loved him very much. Fantastic story arch with him. Just fabulous. Watching his scenes was a joy.

The humor. It was wonderful to have it interspersed in there, breaking up the fast pace of all the action in just the right intervals. And oh there were qutie a few fantastics lines in there. “I am experiencing multiple attitudes simultaneously” for example. Whichever of you writers came up with that deserves several kudos.

Uhura – loved her quite a lot, too. Adored the bravery she exhibited, both in facing the Klingons and in facing Khan. Nice, strong character moments for her.

The acting. I thought the entire cast did a superb job.

What I didn’t like:

Khan. Any of the augments would have sufficed for the plot. To use that specific one was bold, and invited comparison to WoK. Which, ultimately comes up short as WoK is still my favorite of the franchise. This new movie had heart, and I appreciated that, but the emotions evoked were not as strongly evoked as they were during WoK within me.

The treatment of women: still feel, as I did in the marketing, that the underwear scene was superfluous and entirely unnecessary. Also, the lover’s spat between Spock and Uhura niggled, both from a ‘why are women always the wife/girlfriend/love interest perspective, but as a ‘why are women always portrayed as wanted to ‘change’ the men in their life – thus perpetually nagging’ perspective. I have noted while reading the reviews for STID that several critics have agreed with me on these points. Knowing the writers are capable of so much more, these antiquated attitudes in storytelling are disappointing.

Spock screaming ‘Khan’ ripped me right out of the moment. I am not upset that Spock was upset, that made sense. He had lost his friend on the cusp of discovering what being a friend meant. Anyone would be upset in such circumstances. But screaming Khan in that Shatner-esque way? A little too obvious.

And lastly… magic blood? That was entirely too niche. But seeing how 101 incarnations of Data have been brought around 101 times (i.e. no one in Star Trek is ever truly dead, and Jim Kirk as the lead protagonist, doubly so), unsurprising for the franchise as a whole.

Overall, however, it was much enjoyed and I look forward to going again this weekend.

1098. TUP - May 17, 2013

I only wish they had included a flashback of Weller discovering Khan. Have him emerge from the Cryotube with long hair looking as much like RM as possible. Just to let the stubborn people break down that barrier in their minds.

Would also have loved to see the Botany Bay.

1099. dmduncan - May 17, 2013

RDR, you manned your post that it was Khan no matter how withering my attack was against your position. I applauded you for being a man who would go down with his ship when he thought it was sinking. Bravo, sir!

MJ, I can’t give you the same kudos because I made you waffle constantly. ;-) Also not sure what it is that you all deduced. As I said before, the evidence suggested anybody from the Botany Bay, and there was no evidence that suggested Khan specifically rather than some other Botany Bay superman. That remains as true today

You guys got it right not because of deduction—at least none that I’m aware of—but because of INDUCTION—JJ Abrams, at least, is more kin to your thinking than to mine, and you—along with all those who looked for a Latino to follow Montalban—recognized that thought process.

So you guys recognized similar thinking, and that’s how you got it right. Which is deeply disappointing to me.

But clearly a man who would fret over casting a Korean rather than a Japanese to play Sulu, and then cast Cumberbatch to play Khan is as flaky and as capricious a man as one who would pledge loyalty to Star Trek and then abandon Star Trek to direct Star Wars. And though I didn’t mention it, after JJ pledged loyalty to Star Trek and then called it kneejerkism and jumped to Star Wars, I realized that he’s full of beans, and precisely the sort of person who COULD make that casting decision.

That also means that when they WERE looking at Latinos for the role once played by Montalban, i.e., Del Toro, Rodriguez, and Molla, they DID go back to 1960′s thinking.

A Latino played a North Indian Sikh before, therefore he must do so again.

Nothing more to it than that when there COULD have been. So it was every bit the kick in the balls that I said it would be. Given the opportunity to do Khan better than before, they unnecessarily chose to whiten up the franchise and to drastically alter one of its iconic characters.

Now I haven’t seen STID yet. My enthusiasm has been somewhat dampened by the huge speedbump that I know the reveal will be.

Because, really, at some point during the film I’ll be watching a completely different movie than the rest of you.

When Harrison says he’s Khan, for me time will stop and Cumberbatch will look at me from the screen and say: “Hey, you—you back there in the 10th row. I GOT THE ROLE!!! How does THAT make you feel? Don’t like my British accent and “pasty white skin?” Just wait for the comics where they reveal the race change operation I had to go through and/or introduce my blonde British mother!!! I can’t tell you which one because it’s a SECRET!!!!”

And then time will start again and for me the rest of the action will be superimposed over an image of Cumberbatch’s massive head laughing maniacally.

1100. Doc - May 17, 2013

@boborci

Just an interesting tit bit for ya. This was a movie that came out a few years back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtZs13XBCog

You could have marketed the opposite here in India :P

I am so sad that Star Trek 3D played out in just 6 days here :( :( :( :(

1101. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

The Space Seed script shows exactly what was meant.

No “magic blood.”

But of course you are the “most critical person ever.”

>1096. TUP – May 17, 2013
Bob Orci – ignore the naysayers

I am sure some of them are intelligent. But many of the criticisms are ridiculous. I am the most critical person ever of movies that lack logic and depth and this movie was amazing.

The guy posting Space Seed remarks, the line about “something in his body won’t allow him to die” is all the canonical evidence we need. They didn’t test his blood in Space Seed. No one can say what was meant by that remark.

1102. TUP - May 17, 2013

Loved the Spock scream. His slowly losing control of his emotions was exactly what was needed and how it was edited worked perfectly. Quinto played the next scene with that underlying anger. Masterful.

At first the lovers spat annoyed me but I thought they played it well. And it was very important for Spock to explain his lack of emotion did not mean a lack of caring.

The only scene that bothered me was the Tribble. SOOOOOO heavy-handed and mis placed. And not needed. The first scene on Earth with the little girl established the healing powers of Khan’s blood. The tribble scene did allow for Bones to have a “light bulb” moment but it was too forced.

1103. TUP - May 17, 2013

@1101 where does Space Seed establish Khan’s body does not have the ability to heal itself? Was it when Bones clearly states that there is something mysterious about Khan’s ability to heal himself?

1104. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1101

I disagree. The line I (and others) have referenced is open enough that one can infer (IF one is so inclined) “magic blood”.

1105. boborci - May 17, 2013

1093. I can’t change the rules. If it is not on screen, it is not canon. It could become canon later.

1106. NOT HAPPY - May 17, 2013

JJ Abrams made an amazing film for the masses, but still deficates once again on the constitution and it’s details.

50 years of consistent Star Trek history, with it’s symbols, design, tie in’s, dot connecting, and they can’t even get Carol Marcus’ accent right?? Sorry but this is bs. Producers, directors, etc. were very careful, creative and respectful to create a world that connected everything, and fans for the last 50 years, fans have loved learning about all the intricate details, collecting the bits, and keeping it all consistent. Too much history changing due to “what’s more marketable” is offensive.

1. Why does Carol Marcus have an english accent?

2. Why is Khan a pale english guy, when he was a dark skinned person with an exotic accent?

3. The principals survive due to too much dumb luck, not intellect.

4. Scotty should not be a the ship’s jester with a mutant Ewok. Neither Doohan nor Shatner would have never approved of “you bet your ass captain”, or call the captain a bastard on an open channel. Doohan would be mortified.

5. Nimoy would have never been so emotional and excited, let alone making out on a public deck for all his crew to see. That’s not Spock.

6. Uhura would not leave her post every 5 minutes to hug, smooch or screw around, and the real Uhura would also not make out in public with her superior officer. Totally inappropriate! The original characters had class and honor, this is nonsense.

7. I like Chekov.

8. Karl Urban is the only one that actually plays his character.

9. Spock yelling “khhhhaaaannn!” Really? And the almost line by line parts from ST II? For me it was like, “well st II will always be the best no matter what happens, so let’s pay homage to it with a visual extravaganza to blow it away”. It didn’t work because the actors were superior, and they lived and made those roles for most of their lives. I felt no sorrow with Kirk bit the dust, something that happened way too soon in this franchise.

10. The whole “oh my god are you two fighting?” What is this “MTV’s Real World Enterprise”?

11. Again, no Shatner somehow somewhere? A bit insulting to him don’t ya think?

12. Military uniforms with hats? Roddenberry hated military uniforms, as he didn’t want it to look like an army.

13. Kirk would have never lied about anything. Sure it’s a different Kirk, but people always hold the same values at what ever age. Shatner’s Kirk would have showed remorse and resigned his commission for breaking that rule.

14. Pike was awesome, but I was looking forward to him being in the “chair”. His death though was a great scene.

15. Kirk would have never said “bastards” on an open channel, with cowboy lines. It totally changes the personality of the actual character.

16. Hated the flying star wars platforms

17. What’s with the insignias? Every ship has a different one in this era.

16. JJ Abrams won’t be back. I can just picture the meeting – “so what has never been done in star trek?”

- crash land a ship into a city
- keep a ship under water
- enterprise falling into the atmosphere
- resurrect the greatest trek villain

He set out to make the ultimate Trek movie, and his mind did, so why return? Nothing left to do in his mind.

Get Nick Myer for the next one.

As sci-fi entertainment, it was AWESOME! As a Star Trek film, it was kind of awesome.

1107. J - May 17, 2013

Overall, I thought the film was beyond excellent. It was so much better than ST 2009, with was also very good. The acting was excellent. The CGI was excellent. Future London and San Francisco were excellent. The use of the Getty Center, Century City, and DTLA were so well integrated. One aspect of the film that could have been conceptualized better was Section 31, which is general critique of how it is conceptualized in Star Trek universe. Therefore, Orci et al are not at fault.

As PhD candidate in the Social Sciences, that has studies organizations and political economy, I found the treatment of the organizational structure underdeveloped. Now the United Federation of Planet as an intergalactic federal government would have over tight sight of all military aspects of Starfleet. Everyone acted like Section 31 was a surprise when they heard about it. Section 31 supposed to be a black op organizations? Is Section 31 a black op group break away groups from Federation/Starfleet intelligence? Even the DOD’s and the CIA’s black operations have oversight. Civilian commanders no about these operations. Even “black’ budgets have to be approved. The USS Vengeance would require a huge capital outlay. The Federation Council would have to approve the Starfleet budget and that would be a very large line item. So therefore, the Federations civilian leadership would have to authorize the ship and preemptive war with the Klingons.

It seemed the writers mirrored Admiral Marcus’s plans as those of General MacArthur from the early Cold War. MacArthur advocated the preemptive nuking of Beijing and Moscow. President Truman and Pentagon brass. Therefore, it seems that the Federation executive branch would have to know about this.

Another critique of Star Trek in general is the implication or suggestion that Section 31 and intelligence and/or security agencies both domestic and foreign are somehow not needed, which is an absurd argument.
Especially with all the threats to the US and the Federation in the Star Trek Universe. Now obviously, the writers are taking about overreach and protecting our democratic values. But intelligence agencies in the US and other democracies share the same values. It would be like suggesting that we didn’t need the police and the legal system to enforce the law and protect the populations. There is a saying about the CIA that only liberal democrats work their. Now I don’t have first had experience, but most people in the government are moderate to liberal in the political outlook. But these agencies are staffed with hard working people that respect its democratic values. This has only increased overtime since the 1960s and 1970s. Now the Federation would have severe oversight. In the real world, abuses occur when the political civilian leadership uses the intelligence agencies in this way. The Bush Administration anyone? So therefore, the Federation civilian leadership would have to have authorized a plot so vast.

It just seemed that the narrative of the film was treating intelligence personnel very poorly by whacking them off during the film and with simplistic arguments that weren’t accurately depicted. Now obviously, all this has to be simplified for general audiences,

Then the film ends with a tribute to 9/11 veterans. Well, intelligence personnel died protecting this country, so that tribute seemed a little false.
Now I know that the writers weren’t arguing this or even implied this, but it came across that way.

but still

Anyone else? I’d like to hear your thoughts.

1108. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Totally false. McCoy has given Khan a full medical work-up and discovers very different reasons for his recuperative abilities. There is NO ‘MAGIC BLOOD.’

Here is the scene, AGAIN:

[Sickbay - medical ward]

(At Khan’s bedside)
MCCOY: (to nurse) That’ll be all. (she leaves)
KIRK: Bones?
MCCOY: He’ll live.
KIRK: My compliments.
MCCOY: No, I’m good, but not that good. There’s something inside this man that refuses to accept death. Look at that. Even as he is now, his heart valve action has twice the power of yours and mine. Lung efficiency is fifty percent better.
(McGivers enters)
KIRK: An improved breed of human. That’s what the Eugenics War was all about.
MCCOY: I’d estimate he could lift us both with one arm. It will be interesting to see if his brain matches his body.

1104. HubcapDave – May 17, 2013
@1101

I disagree. The line I (and others) have referenced is open enough that one can infer (IF one is so inclined) “magic blood”.

1109. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

McCoy never said there was something “mysterious” about Khan’s recuperative abilities.

That’s a thorough distortion of Space Seed.

Look at the scene I posted above, AGAIN, from Space Seed, in which he states clear reasons for it that have nothing to do with “magic blood,” which he did not find in his full medical work-up.

>1103. TUP – May 17, 2013
@1101 where does Space Seed establish Khan’s body does not have the ability to heal itself? Was it when Bones clearly states that there is something mysterious about Khan’s ability to heal himself?

1110. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1068. martin,
“Khan didn’t say Khan Noonien Singh? Can you give a reference to where Khan used his full name in Space Seed or Wrath of Khan?”

It has nothing to do with Khan himself using his full name or not. The fact he doesn’t in STID simply adds to the possibility he might not be when taken together with all the other inconsistencies and when you consider only what is seen on screen is canon.

Khan was not a genocidal dictator. He was positively identified in Space Seed, but not in STID. We did not see Khan being awakened in STID. Khan almost died in Space Seed when awakened but was saved by McCoy. He does not resemble the accepted canonical descriptions of Khan. “Khan” is a title. Harrison does not behave like the Khan from Space Seed. Etc.

The reality is, should a future Star Trek film involve a plot where the real Khan is awakened and explains Harrison was an imposter, nothing in STID contradicts that. And who could say that is any more unrealistic than anything presented in ST09 or STID? I mean “Khan”‘s blood suddenly has magical healing properties that not ony works on other humans who are genetically dissimilar, to say nothing of different blood types, but also different species! His genetically engineered blood is not unique to his biology, but a universal panacea for all living things? That’s pretty good for 1950s genetic engineering. And that’s all based on a single line of vague dialogue from Space Seed. Frankly if they can do that, Harrison can easily be another passenger from the Botany Bay based on the events of STID.

Do I think that was their intention? Not really, then again it would be a heck of a plot twist for a future movie. Wouldn’t be the first time the double reveal was used in a movie. So I wouldn’t rule it out either.

1111. boborci - May 17, 2013

1106.

In this universe, Carol was raised in London.

1112. watersprite - May 17, 2013

#66 Karen

Thank you for so beautifully articulating this scene. Emotionally it worked for me; intellectually I hadn’t quite connected the dots until I read your post. Yes. Exactly.

I was initially indifferent or even disappointed over the rumors that we would have Khan in this film, but this is a different movie, a different spin, with new insights and truths to be discovered.

Even at first viewing: KHAAAN in TWOK struck me as over the top. Here it sent chills down my spine. How the hell did Quinto get the courage to try that, much less pull it off?

1113. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

A single line of “vague” dialogue immediately followed by the specific medical reasons for Khan’s recuperative powers, that is.

> And that’s all based on a single line of vague dialogue from Space Seed.

1114. Jamesspock1 - May 17, 2013

The senario is really, really, really bad, good thing there there are special effect, because without it there would be nothing to tell, and still can you believe the lens flare again.

1115. Steve G - May 17, 2013

@bobOrci Big mistake taking employees to see STID. I think I may have brain damage from forcing myself not to shed tears in front of them during that death scene. I’m going to see it again today… alone… in the back row… so I can bawl my heart out.

1116. J - May 17, 2013

@1107
Administrator please delete my previous post # 1107. It came of more negative than I intended. I wasn’t intending to be that critical as it was directed in a more general critique and it’s too serious to be on this tread.

Sorry,

J

1117. cpelc - May 17, 2013

@boborci

can you explain the scene(s) of Bones trying to examine Kirk and saying that his vitals are way off? Because of stress from Pike’s death or just a red herring?

1118. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1108

William, you are being too slavish here, but even working with what is spoken here, I can disprove what you’re saying. McCoy is not saying that Khan is recuperating because he has strong organs. He is saying that even in his state of recovery, his heart and lung functions are superior to that of a normal human. In other words, even in a damaged state, he’s in far better condition than the rest of humanity.

Now, I ask you, what part of the body system delivers oxygen and nutrients to the body (components vital to the function and healing of body tissue)? The blood. I do not think I go out on a limb when I say that a genetic superman would have a circulatory system and blood that is also superior in its abilities and functions to a normal human’s.

Again, this IS an inference, it is not explicitly stated. However, the inference is arrived at logically, which is why I have no problem with Khan having “magic blood”.

1119. Red Dead Ryan - May 17, 2013

I can’t believe that Curious Cadet and Keachick are still denying that the villain is indeed Khan Noonien Singh. C’mon, the name is mentioned in full by Spock Prime himself.

Anyway, proud to say that I was right about the villain.

And anyone know where Montreal_Paul is? :-)

1120. Kraten - May 17, 2013

As one who dreaded Khan being in this film and so wanted something totally original. My hat is off to you sir, and you fantastic team.

No it is not My Org Trek, But this is not 1966 or the 80′s

I can’t tell you the last time my Expectations were blown out of the water so well. It was a incredible re imaging of Space Seed and WOK. Wish the whole super blood was not a part but easily can overlook for such a wonder summer escapist romp that will breath much needed new life into Star Trek as a Whole.

Thank you @Boborci and team from the bottom of my heart

BTW: Is there/Was there a ARG experience like the 2009 or is it really mainly just the App? – Missed that but i am not sure if it is still not coming?

Thank you again

1121. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Well, that makes sense. And Alice Eve is a terrific addition to the cast.

>1111. boborci – May 17, 2013
1106.

In this universe, Carol was raised in London.

1122. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

dear people who are trying to say he isn’t Khan – read bob orci’s comments in this thread. He is unambiguous that this is Khan.

1123. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Nope.

McCoy clearly states the reasons for Khan’s recuperative powers.

There is science in science fiction, and superior heart and lung capacity are not driven by magic Tribble reanimation blood.

You may not know this but Khan doesn’t die in Space Seed. He simply comes out of the cold sleep.

Studio publicists love useful, ah, folks, like you, who blindly follow whatever is fed them on-screen.

>1118. HubcapDave – May 17, 2013
@1108

William, you are being too slavish here, but even working with what is spoken here, I can disprove what you’re saying.

1124. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

@boborci

Kirk, I believe, says that he hasn’t lost anyone under his command in this movie, yet in the comics, he clearly has (in the first 3 issues, he lost 3 people).

Now, I know you just said “if it’s not on screen, it’s not canon” and have said before comics are canon UNTIL something on screen contradicts it.

But this would seem to contradict the first two stories (and possibly more, I can’t remember) in the comics. I guess my question is, what incentive do we have to continue to read the comics if they’re all just going to be wiped out of canon by the movies so easily?

1125. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Oh, they certainly intend him to be viewed as Khan. I have no doubt of that.

But the real Spock simply answers questions about Khan, reacting to his name. We never see him being shown a photo of BC.

So if they have to change it down the line, to end the embarrassment, they can.

>1122. Josh C. – May 17, 2013
dear people who are trying to say he isn’t Khan – read bob orci’s comments in this thread. He is unambiguous that this is Khan.

1126. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

Wow….I’m having a hard time rating this movie. I went to it on Wednesday, and although I thought it was enjoyable, I think I could have enjoyed it more if I hadn’t have spoiled myself with all the clips and speculation. That being said, I did get a lot of pleasant surprises. Things didn’t unfold precisely as I thought. On a preliminary basis, I think there’s two main issues I had with the movie. Number one, it went along more rapidly than I would have liked. Not enough Khancentration on Khan. *L* I think that part should have stretched out a little longer, with the mind games and such, but I think that may be because it’s what I expected.

But number two, the big problem with this movie is that it demands a comparison to TWOK. And unfortunately, it fails. Benedict Cumberbatch is a superb actor who did a great job with this role. And STID is a good movie. However, Ricardo Montalbon and TWOK have a distict advantage over BC and STID – we’ve loved the former two for DECADES. So, even if it’s a poorer movie (not saying that, but if it was), it wouldn’t matter, because we love it. Like an old, comfortable chair. So that’s why I can’t really do a good evaluation now, because I’m going to want to compare it to Khan from Space Seed and TWOK. I kept wanting to see BC do some of that Khan breathing and yoga ridiculousness. *LOL* If I had seen STID first, then Space Seed and TWOK, there’s no doubt that BC’s version would be the defintive one. But like I said, he was great, but there wasn’t enough of him to be satisfied.

1127. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1125 – what embarrassment? I don’t like it, you don’t like it, but it has 87% on rotten tomatoes and will probably have a $100 million opening weekend. I don’t think they have any reason to see it as “embarrassment” regardless of what we say here

1128. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I know many people don’t read any more, but if you actually look at the reviews instead of a number that equates Joe Schmo with the NY Times, you will see that even “positive” reviews have very sharp criticisms, ESPECIALLY of the whole Khan nonsense.

The reason it is an embarrassment is that it makes absolutely no sense.

1129. Trekker5 - May 17, 2013

Aurore-922.

I didn’t mind the spoilers up to a point,but about two weeks ago I stopped reading anything. I hope you enjoy the movie! :) I plan on seeing it in 3D next week,can’t wait to see how it looks! :)

1130. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1128 – of course, the other thing to note is that coming back later and being like “nevermind!” would not only undercut this movie, but would likely doom whatever movie they tried to pull that off in as well.

People aren’t going to go for “This time it’s Khan! For real! we swear!!”

1131. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I totally agree with this.

I love BC as Sherlock and as a presence. I’m absolutely thrilled with him playing the villain. He just isn’t Khan.

But the other problem is that his character is much bigger in the promotional material for the movie than in the movie itself.

>Not enough Khancentration on Khan. *L* I think that part should have stretched out a little longer, with the mind games and such, but I think that may be because it’s what I expected.

1132. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1123

Interesting how you assert my wrongness without actually debunking the points of my argument.

And then you insult me.

“McCoy clearly states the reasons for Khan’s recuperative powers.”

No he doesn’t. First, he states that there’s “something” about Khan that refuses to accept death. Then, he prefaces his comments about heart and lung function with the phrase “Even as he is now”. The dialog is not ascribing his healing functions to the increased heart and lung function, but rather as a result of said function.

But, for the sake of argument, let’s say that that IS what’s being said. Why do we take in air through our lungs? How does the body distribute the nutrients it needs to support and repair itself? And further, wouldn’t a genetically superior human with increased organ and advanced healing capacity need an equally superior support system?

I’m not blindly following anything. Using logic, I came up with a plausible explanation for the healing properties of Khan’s blood.

1133. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

You don’t debunk anything. You ignore that the only facts stated don’t support the magic blood gobbledygook.

Khan has vastly superior heart and lung function. And he is much stronger. That’s all there is.

NOTHING you say has anything to do with “magic blood.”

> Why do we take in air through our lungs? How does the body distribute the nutrients it needs to support and repair itself? And further, wouldn’t a genetically superior human with increased organ and advanced healing capacity need an equally superior support system?

1134. Red Dead Ryan - May 17, 2013

dmduncan,

Nice to see you back posting!

My prediction of Khan was merely the result of the writers mentioning repeatedly (after “Star Trek” 09) how much they loved “Space Seed” and “The Wrath Of Khan”, as well as Bob telling us on another thread how he was (at the time) reading the novel “The Eugenics Wars”.

There was also the proposed Botany Bay post-credits scene that was dropped from the first movie.

As for the movie itself, I liked it. Though it unfolded almost exactly as I imagined it would. Benedict Cumberbatch was great, and his Khan was a true menace, but not evil. He was loyal to his men, and clearly felt betrayed by Starfleet, and by Admiral Marcus in particular.

I plan on seeing it another couple of times at least.

1135. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Maybe it could be a surprise this time … :)

>1130. Josh C. – May 17, 2013
1128 – of course, the other thing to note is that coming back later and being like “nevermind!” would not only undercut this movie, but would likely doom whatever movie they tried to pull that off in as well.

People aren’t going to go for “This time it’s Khan! For real! we swear!!”

1136. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Yes, the Eugenics War novels, in which Gary Seven goes to India and takes on the young Khan Noonien Singh (who is an Indian, not a Brit) as his protege in policing the planet only to find him too headstrong to keep under control …

>My prediction of Khan was merely the result of the writers mentioning repeatedly (after “Star Trek” 09) how much they loved “Space Seed” and “The Wrath Of Khan”, as well as Bob telling us on another thread how he was (at the time) reading the novel “The Eugenics Wars”.

1137. Killamarshtrek - May 17, 2013

1111. boborci – May 17, 2013
1106.

In this universe, Carol was raised in London.

As you say, Carol’s accent change can easily be explained as part of the new timeline, Khan’s change of accent and ethnic type cannot so PLEASE tell us BobOrci, what’s the explanation?!

1138. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1134 – “Khan was a true menace, but not evil.”

perhaps you missed the part where he basically said he wanted to reconquer earth?

1135 – heh, in any case, my arguments for why the villain wouldn’t be Khan, including Cumberbatch being white, was couched on the assumption that the people making the movie actually cared. Clearly they don’t. I trust that they intend him to be Khan. They’re not going to go back and undo that. He got whitewashed because they’re lazy, not because they’re trying to trick us.

1139. ant-matter - May 17, 2013

Scotty is the best. More Scotty!!!!

1140. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

Oh my goodness, are people STILL arguing about Khan’s ethnicity? He was revived by Marcus and given a new identity. One would think along with that new identity that his appearance would be changed along with that.

Records from Khan’s era were not complete, but there was still enough of it there for people to know. There’s some history buff going around that would see him in a restaurant and go, “Huh…that guy looks just like Khan Noonien Singh, ha! Hey, wouldn’t it be funny if….cause Khan never was…..and there was a missing sleeper…..OH MY GOODNESS, THATS KHAN NOONIEN SINGH!!!!”

It’s not rocket science people….

1141. Chain of Command - May 17, 2013

@1056

Perhaps I was bit over-the-top… However, I was complimenting Star Trek fans. I get tired of them being condemned for liking science fiction.

1142. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1133

And you are using ring logic to answer me. You aren’t telling me how I am wrong, other than to refer back to McCoy’s lines (which, as I’ve shown, isn’t saying what you say it says).

I challenge you to take my argument, point by point, and tell me why what I posit cannot not possibly be true.

1143. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Yes, he’s so well known that he might be recognized in a restaurant, yet so unknown that our crew hasn’t heard of the Augments, because they no longer teach history at Starfleet Academy.

But he was given a new identity anyway that turned him into the ultimate lily-white Englishman, with the ultimate Brit actors voice.

Of course.

Instead of doing the (attempted) ret-conning for them, as good fanboys do, let’s see what the actual writers come up with as their rationale.

1144. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

1138. Josh C. – May 17, 2013

He got whitewashed because they’re lazy, not because they’re trying to trick us.

********************

He got “whitewashed” because BC was the best actor they auditioned for the role. He got “Mexican by way of Spain” (or vice versa) in Space Seed because the people doing the episode were lazy. Why write a role for a Sikh if you can’t get an Indian actor for the role? Why not rewrite the name to be Esteban Gomez, the Conquistador of Earth? Laziness.

Unlike STID, where they actually had a good REASON to change Khan’s appearance – because there are cameras EVERYWHERE apparently on 23rd century earth, and all it takes is one Marla McGivers or other historical geek to see him in a crowd, and realize that not only does he LOOK like Khan, but he could BE Khan because he hitched a ride on a sleeper ship.

1145. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1143 – there is no evidence that this crew hadn’t heard of augments. The original crew didn’t know Khan was augment Khan when he first introduced himself either. I don’t see that as demonstrating anything

1146. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Point by point? You mean answering your question about why air is needed for the lungs?

Here is the rule of canon. If it ain’t there, it ain’t real. McCoy did a full workup, and found what he says he found. He didn’t find magic blood.

>1142. HubcapDave – May 17, 2013
@1133

And you are using ring logic to answer me. You aren’t telling me how I am wrong, other than to refer back to McCoy’s lines (which, as I’ve shown, isn’t saying what you say it says).

I challenge you to take my argument, point by point, and tell me why what I posit cannot not possibly be true.

1147. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

You just made two statements which are not the same thing.

Unlike Space Seed, in which the crew immediately wonders if Khan is an augment, the alt-boys never mention the possibility.

>1145. Josh C. – May 17, 2013
1143 – there is no evidence that this crew hadn’t heard of augments. The original crew didn’t know Khan was augment Khan when he first introduced himself either. I don’t see that as demonstrating anything

1148. @wikiwackywoo - May 17, 2013

It’s fun, no doubt about it, but thin in the substance department. To the point where you could feel sock-puppeted at a half dozen instances. Plot, schmott who needs a good story when there is all that action, Trekism and SFX, right? I don’t think so.

The hat-tips to emblematic Trek lore were funny when intended to be, but pathetic when they were supposed to be dramatic. Spock’s Khahahaaaaaahn howl was bloated and off track. And his tears? Hey, we got Kirk’s tears (and mine) when Pike died, but that pseudo death in the reactor scene redux was wrung for all it was worth and after dealing with the entire movie to that point to have it completely jump the shark at the penultimate finale was a bissle feeb.

We went from the blissful suspension of disbelief that you surrender to at a scifi movie to just plain head smacking disbelief — and back– more than once. Whiplash.

Those aliens on the bridge were so amazingly crafted but were only window dressing as it turned out.The Spock prime pop-up looked like a huge boost but all it turned out to be was “hey, kid, this is bad…”

This film could have been utterly excellent — but we waited 4 years and have to settle for “pretty good.”

We have neither the core humanity of the Trek franchise nor the innate intelligence here. I thought ’09 was much better, but perhaps the even-number curse of Trekfilmdom has struck and the third installment will redeem it. There was skillful seeding of sequel-able characters and follows-up.

I am in no way unhappy that I saw it. There were searingly beautiful and tremendously thrilling moments. IT WAS GORGEOUS! The cast did as well as could be expected with such wobbly premises. I think it is a must see for any Trek fanboy, even female ones. But it’s not a must see-again. And for me that’ll be a first.

1149. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

1143. William Bradley – May 17, 2013
Yes, he’s so well known that he might be recognized in a restaurant, yet so unknown that our crew hasn’t heard of the Augments, because they no longer teach history at Starfleet Academy.

********************************

Khan wasn’t well known. I don’t think anyone knew much about him except for McGivers in Space Seed. However, there’s got to be tons of history geeks running around Earth who would recognize him. Someone doing a thesis on that point in history? Or for that matter, a 4th grade history report. And once that person realized that Khan was never found, and there were sleeper ships, they could go conspiracy theory on it. Plus, theres the fact that there seems to be cameras EVERYWHERE.
***************************************

But he was given a new identity anyway that turned him into the ultimate lily-white Englishman, with the ultimate Brit actors voice.

Of course.
************************************
Sounds good to me.
***********************************

Instead of doing the (attempted) ret-conning for them, as good fanboys do, let’s see what the actual writers come up with as their rationale.

********************

That sounds like a plan too. I’m just pointing out that there’s no use of people whining about that detail, because it’s quickly and easily explained in a logical fashion. People should save arguments for more pressing thoughts, like why didn’t any ships around Earth show up for the fight? I’d think that weapons fire near the moon would be noticed by someone….

1150. Coastie - May 17, 2013

Ok, so someone answer this question … now I know there’s going to be plot holes in any film, I get that.

But Section 31 is this ultra top secret military organization right? They have this shipyard building ultra top secret new starships right? Then how does Scotty just fly right up to it in his shuttle craft and fly right in? Nobody is going to notice that? They aren’t watching their radar, or looking out the window? None of those other shuttlecraft pilots were like “who’s this guy getting in line with us?”

JJ … loved your movie, but you’re killing me!

1151. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1147 – in Space Seed, they had the sthip, and around the time it would have been launched, to help them speculate. Here they don’t have that. It’s a guy named Khan. I suppose they have the stasis tubes, but that’s still less information than they had in Space Seed

1152. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1122. Josh C.,
“dear people who are trying to say he isn’t Khan – read bob orci’s comments in this thread. He is unambiguous that this is Khan.”

Bob Orci’s comments aren’t canon.

Do I believe he intended him to be THE Khan? Again yes, unless this is part of a bigger bait and switch plot, which has plenty of literary and cinematic precedence. I’m not ruling anything out with these guys.

————————–
“of course, the other thing to note is that coming back later and being like “nevermind!” would not only undercut this movie, but would likely doom whatever movie they tried to pull that off in as well.”

You mean like ST III? ‘Nevermind, Spock’s not really dead’ …

1153. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

@ 1150. Coastie – May 17, 2013

“But Section 31 is this ultra top secret military organization right? They have this shipyard building ultra top secret new starships right? Then how does Scotty just fly right up to it in his shuttle craft and fly right in? Nobody is going to notice that? They aren’t watching their radar, or looking out the window? None of those other shuttlecraft pilots were like “who’s this guy getting in line with us?””

Perhaps it was during the lunch hour & no one was pay attention !!!

There is not much logic in this movie. It looks beautiful & the CGI amazing but very little substance or logic.

1154. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Totally false.

How many frakking times do I have to post the Space Seed scene in which the officers discuss Khan’s career with long familiarity and even affection.

Khan Noonien Singh was their favorite dictator! Spock is appalled!

The level of Trek knowledge coming out here is not impressive. But maybe it’s just fannish defense from some newbies of the new movie.

Which is entertaining. But in many respects, daft.

I had much higher hopes after the great ’09 reboot.

>1149. LogicalLeopard – May 17, 2013
1143. William Bradley – May 17, 2013
Yes, he’s so well known that he might be recognized in a restaurant, yet so unknown that our crew hasn’t heard of the Augments, because they no longer teach history at Starfleet Academy.

********************************

Khan wasn’t well known. I don’t think anyone knew much about him except for McGivers in Space Seed. However, there’s got to be tons of history geeks running around Earth who would recognize him. Someone doing a thesis on that point in history? Or for that matter, a 4th grade history report. And once that person realized that Khan was never found, and there were sleeper ships, they could go conspiracy theory on it. Plus, theres the fact that there seems to be cameras EVERYWHERE.

1155. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1146

How about you just take the part where I prove that McCoy’s not saying what you are saying he says:

““McCoy clearly states the reasons for Khan’s recuperative powers.”

No he doesn’t. First, he states that there’s “something” about Khan that refuses to accept death. Then, he prefaces his comments about heart and lung function with the phrase “Even as he is now”. The dialog is not ascribing his healing functions to the increased heart and lung function, but rather as a result of said function.”

If we’re going to use “It ain’t canon unless somebody says it out loud” rule, then look at exactly what he says. You’ve been using this line as your argument. I have pointed out that you are reading this line wrong. You need to refute what I have said in some other way than going back to your original argument.

1156. nscates - May 17, 2013

Mr Orci – My daughter and I loved it! As a loooooongtime trek fan, I was dubious about working Khan into it but you found a compelling way to do it that worked surprisingly well. A triumph of casting indeed. But the story was good as well – you and your writing cohorts should be commended. I especially liked the arc you gave to Kirk’s character. He really needed to have that moment of realization that he had gone too far on instinct and (potentially at least) left his crew in an indefensible situation. That made the mirroring of the Wrath of Khan’s reactor scene plausible and perhaps even necessary. The only point where I felt things went a little too far was Quinto-Spocks “KHHHAAAAAANNNN!!!” yell when Kirk died. I thought that was a little over the top. Spock was of course losing control of his emotions but is not a shouty character by nature (the 1966 pilot excluded). The rest was perfect – or close enough for me.

And it was a real treat to watch Spock kick ass. I always had a little trouble with “space Seed”, when Kirk and Khan went mano-a-mano. Kirk shouldn’t have been able to beat him so easily. Or perhaps at all. Spock, on the other hand (and by virtue of his superior Vulcan strength) would have been a much better matchup.

The whole production team really pulled off a major victory here. More than ever, I am sorry that JJ will not be back for the third installment.

So, the big question is, have you started breaking the story for Star Trek 2016?

Can’t wait.

1157. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Er, in the same way that John Harrison easily beams on to the Klingon homeworld, which is the same way in which Kirk’s little ship gets all the way down the surface before ever being challenged …

Colossally bad security from the security badasses of Section 31 and the Klingon Empire!

>But Section 31 is this ultra top secret military organization right? They have this shipyard building ultra top secret new starships right? Then how does Scotty just fly right up to it in his shuttle craft and fly right in?

1158. Steve G - May 17, 2013

I can’t believe there is so much controversy over Khan’s physical appearance.

Obviously when Adm. Marcus defrosted him, he messed it up and it killed the poor superior guy. Luckily he had a Vulcan officer with him who was able to capture Khan’s katra just in time! (Yeah, it turns out we all have katras, who knew?).

He then had to take the soggy flaking remains and the Vulcan to Mount Seleya but, well, you what happens when you forget to refrigerate a body during transport. His bad.

So Marcus had to sacrifice one of his officers, some guy named Harrison (not a complete fiction after all) and have the Vulcans move Khan’s katra into his body and infuse it with rancid but still viable Khan blood.

And yeah, Khan Harrison has two katras, but he had therapy to deal with that.

The real controversy is: why super genius Chekov is so bad at engineering?

1159. Red Dead Ryan - May 17, 2013

I also think J.J Abrams’ secrecy policy was highly flawed.

He assumed that misdirection, denials, and lies (Karl Urban’s Gary Mitchell moment, Alice Eve’s No-Khan insistances) would keep the identity concealed. On the contrary, all it did was cement my (and a few others, MJ, BB, et al) suspicions that the villain was indeed Khan.

In the final few months leading up to the release of “Star Trek Into Darkness”, we got a lot of spoilers in the form of stills, trailers, and tv ads that were put together by fans on this site and a lot of what did occur in the movie was already deduced by the fans.

Like in politics, the more secrets you try to conceal, the more people get curious, the more the secrets become revealed as truth by logical reasoning, deduction, and intuition.

Keeping a secret is like holding a wet bar of soap. The harder you grasp onto it, the more likely it slips right out of your hand.

1160. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

“MJ, Yes, you were right.”

Thank you, PaulB.

“So you guys recognized similar thinking, and that’s how you got it right.”

Thank you, DM Duncan.

1161. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

They have plenty of information. They’ve seen his superhuman abilities in action, wiping out the ultimate badass Klingons — which Kirk never sees in Space Seed until it’s too late — they know he’s a couple hundred years old.

But they never think he could be one of those Augment characters who ruled the world.

>1151. Josh C. – May 17, 2013
1147 – in Space Seed, they had the sthip, and around the time it would have been launched, to help them speculate. Here they don’t have that. It’s a guy named Khan. I suppose they have the stasis tubes, but that’s still less information than they had in Space Seed

1162. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

To Bob Orci and Supreme Court, I say: don’t let this tiny but very vocal collection of naysayers and malcontents cloud your view of this great Star Trek movie. The whiners and are always going to whine here, but the 83% who love this movie know the real score here.

Remember folks, for those of us who really liked the movie, we are the 83% “largely silent majority” here (see the poll) who really liked this movie. So keep in mind that most of the posts here are from the “largely vocal small minority” of 17% of the people who did not like the movie.

1163. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1159 – the thing I don’t get is this: if you’re gonna have Khan be the villain, woldn’t one of the big reasons why one would do that to be like “Hey everyone! Khan’s the villain!”

But they did the exact opposite. They tried to hide it. As one review I read wrote, it would be like a batman movie which tries to hide who the villain is, only to reveal that it’s the Joker. Not only is it not surprising, but seemingly self defeating as well

1164. J - May 17, 2013

1162: MJ – your current nickname and patronizing tone is just sad.

1165. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

You don’t get it.

This movie is going to be a big hit. But if the sort of bad moves made in this story are repeated in the next one, Star Trek is going to be in big trouble. Because it’s going to be mocked.

Even most of the positive reviews this movie gets have tremendous criticisms within them.

Frankly, RottenTomatoes could easily change that rating big time just by slightly re-jiggering what is a positive review.

>1162. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) – May 17, 2013
To Bob Orci and Supreme Court, I say: don’t let this tiny but very vocal collection of naysayers and malcontents cloud your view of this great Star Trek movie. The whiners and are always going to whine here, but the 83% who love this movie know the real score here.

1166. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1162 – As you may or may not know, one of the arguments that the scene with him fighting off Klingons in the trailer didn’t prove it was Khan was essentially that there were many other explanations for that. An alien. Someone who had been well trained, or perhaps partially augmented.

And clearly Kirk had his suspicions because when Khan finally revealed himself, Kirk says he investigated his past and found that “John Harrison” didn’t have one. Maybe he didn’t know he was “one of those guys” but then again, I’m not sure one would automatically think “I bet this guy is one of those lost guys from 250 years ago that went unaccounted for!”

1167. Mel - May 17, 2013

Bechdel test:

1. A movie has to have at least two women in it,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a man.

The 2009 movie barely passed the Bechdel test, thanks to the conversation about the Klingon distress call between Uhura and Gaila, while they were in their underwear.

I don’t think any women speak with each other in the 2013 movie, not even about a man. Of course there are only two significant ones, so the chances weren’t good to begin with.

The Bechdel test sounds so easy to pass, but somehow in the over two hours running time, they couldn’t let two women speak with each other at all. Compare that with the amount of time, two men speak with each other in the movie. That is really a disgrace!

1168. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

“He assumed that misdirection, denials, and lies (Karl Urban’s Gary Mitchell moment, Alice Eve’s No-Khan insistances) would keep the identity concealed. On the contrary, all it did was cement my (and a few others, MJ, BB, et al) suspicions that the villain was indeed Khan.”

But RDR, 90%+ of the people here bought into it, and did not think it was going to be Khan. After nearly two years, I even wavered a bit.

So I think the secrecy policy worked.

However, if your secrecy policy forces people to actually lie over and over — you can only do that once. JJ has cried wolf now way too often, and no one is going to buy into that sort of misdirection from him ever again.

1169. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

1131. William Bradley – May 17, 2013
I love BC as Sherlock and as a presence. I’m absolutely thrilled with him playing the villain. He just isn’t Khan.

But the other problem is that his character is much bigger in the promotional material for the movie than in the movie itself.

*******************

That’s a really good way to put it. I was expecting this massive, mindbending manipulation of the crew and others by Khan, and it didn’t turn out that way. Had they not promoted it like that, I maybe would have enjoyed what I saw a bit more.

As far as BC him not being Khan…hmmn….I can see him as Khan, and as this portrayal as being a white hot (no pun intended), laser focused Khan who is trying to get his people back. But the producers of this movie made a big gamble in having someone play Khan, even a great actor like BC, and I don’t think it paid off.

1170. Mel - May 17, 2013

Just to clarify, I meant, there are only two significant female characters, so the chances for a woman/woman talk weren’t good to begin with.

1171. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1169 – I have to admit, some of the evidence – stasis tubes and his seeming super strength, made me think he would be Khan. I just didn’t think they’d be dumb enough to actually make him Khan

1172. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@1157. You don’t get. I am not conversing with you. Ever!

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

1173. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1163 Josh C.,

I totally agree with you on this. Perhaps they feared when fans found out Cumberbatch was playing Khan all the vitriol being expressed now by the vocal minority would somehow undermine the Paramount marketing machine.

When in fact, I think the opposite would be true. They would have gotten the same amount of publicity from the fans’ reactions, any of the general public familiarity the name would have most likely been a positive, and it would have given the hard core fans time to come to terms with it as they did after Orci’s ST09 online physics tutorial.

Of course even conservative news outlets might have started putting Montalban and Cumberbatch’s pictures up side by side, and who knows even the ACLU might have gotten involved. Although I have to say, even in that worst case scenario, what is it they say: there’s no such thing as bad publicity?

1174. Red Dead Ryan - May 17, 2013

William Bradley,

Dude, you’ve been saying the same damn things over and over. We get it. You don’t like the new interpretation of Khan.

Why can’t you just move on?

1175. rogerachong - May 17, 2013

Saw it on Wednesday @ 11:00 am in IMAX 3D the very first showing of STID in my country in the Caribbean. I was the only one in my ST uniform as expected and I had a great time. Yes the movie rushes along and I will be seeing it with my kids on Saturday evening at the IMAX again!! This is a better movie than the last one and the people over here are hooked on action heavy films so I believe this one will be better received by local audiences.

These two JJ Abrams ST movies are like a Part 1 & 2 of the same film, as such the time lapse between the two films is too long in these modern times. If the box office suffers at all it will be due to this factor. You guys did a great job and delivered the goods. Going forward keep it purly original with an opening sequence that harkens to the TOS shows, (Doomsday Marchine my favorite). After that keep it fresh, no more big fan service required. The reboot is now complete so push ahead now into virgin territory.

For those who complain, this is clearly a movie and a work of fiction and full of Plotholes!!

Plothole #1: If I was Kirk there is 0.0000% chance that I would have answered that phone with two Cattails under my covers. Can’t think of any others right now. LLAP.

1176. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

1097. Trekkiegal63 – May 17, 2013

So I’m watching the movie and thinking about you, and how much of a feminist I’ve become *LOL* I’m thinking, “Wow….this Alice Eve in here underwear scene is probably the stupidest case of cheesecake I’ve ever seen in Star Trek. It didn’t even work to further the Kirk/Marcus story along, which was basically non-existent. And although you know I didn’t think Uhura was relegated to the role of girlfriend in the first movie, I thought it felt like that in this one. I could do without the majority of the girlfriend/boyfriend nonsense in this one.

1177. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1174

Apparently he only stops talking about a subject when you’ve nailed him dead to rights.

1178. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

expanding on why I didn’t think it was Khan

In a way, the more things that HINTED it could be like Wrath of Khan (Carol Marcus, hands on glass, super-strong human, stasis tubes, whatever else was out there) the more I felt it WASN’T going to be Khan because I kind of figured this:

If they’re going to have THIS much in common with Wrath of Khan, and then it actually IS Khan, then this movie is gonna blow. Unfortunately I was wrong about it not being Khan and right about it blowing (in my opinion anyway).

To me, it’s the difference between homages and just plain copying. Having Carol Marcus in the movie is a homage. Having Carol Marcus in the movie where Khan is the villain is just ripping off Wrath of Khan. And so on and so on.

And the “clues” given were ambiguous enough that there were other possible explanations. I think it would take only relatively minor tweaks to the story to, say, have Garth of Izar be the villain instead (which is another problem with the movie – you could drop any number of different characters in for Cumberbatch’s character and it would work).

I just never actually thought they would actually do a half-baked Wrath of Khan remake, which is essentially what i feel we got.

1179. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Hardly. I’m through wasting time.

1180. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

A broader question I have for people here is this. Fine, I get why you might not choose to believe Red Dead Ryan, myself and others about it not being Khan. Fine.

But, the fact that so many of you just tried to continually explain away Anthony’s breaking story from last April where multiple inside sources of his confirmed it was Khan? With many of you inferring Anthony was duped, or his information was wrong?

This is Anthony we are talking about. Of course his information was going to be accurate if he dared to go public with a big story like that.

Duh! I just don’t get the way nearly everyone here wrote off Anthony’s story. He confirmed it was Khan over 13 months ago.

This is a lesson here involving Spock — use your brain, use logic, and ignore your personal feelings the next time, and objectively read what Anthony says on this site when he breaks a major Trek story.

1181. TRENT - May 17, 2013

Some of you may get a kick out of these reviews from a member of the intended audience:

http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/15/sam-strange-remembers-star-trek/

http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/17/sam-strange-remembers-star-trek-into-darkness/

1182. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

1154. William Bradley – May 17, 2013
Totally false.

How many frakking times do I have to post the Space Seed scene in which the officers discuss Khan’s career with long familiarity and even affection.

Khan Noonien Singh was their favorite dictator! Spock is appalled!

The level of Trek knowledge coming out here is not impressive. But maybe it’s just fannish defense from some newbies of the new movie.

Which is entertaining. But in many respects, daft.

I had much higher hopes after the great ’09 reboot.

******************************’

Remind us….did Kirk and Scotty know about Khan prior to McGivers giving them the rundown or not? My memory is that they did not recognize him or know much about him until they were briefed. Then, with that knowledge, they sort of taunted Spock by admiring him during a later meeting.

1183. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Hardly.

I’m saying very different things about different aspects of the movie.

I only repeat myself to people who have simply ignored things, don’t know them to begin with, or just keep saying the same things.

A poll a poll, magic blood is real despite no evidence of it, etc.

>1174. Red Dead Ryan – May 17, 2013
William Bradley,

Dude, you’ve been saying the same damn things over and over. We get it. You don’t like the new interpretation of Khan.

Why can’t you just move on?

1184. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

@MJ,

I disagree with you about the movie, I didn’t like it as much as I liked Star Trek 2009 but you were right from the beginning that it was Khan. I didn’t know that you have a direct line with Bob & co :)

Next time around, I will sure pay more attention to your deductions & theories.

1185. MCG - May 17, 2013

@1095: yes, they paid homage to that scene, but as I said above that’s more of a bookend to the scene from TWOK then a re-do of it. This is the sacrifice that begins their lifelong friendship rather than caps it.

But in terms of the Khan plotline, it is more akin to Space Seed than TWOK. Khan is woken up, wants his crew woken too, will do anything to get back to the business of being Khan, takes over a ship, fights Kirk and loses. Only instead of being left on Ceti Alpha V with his crew, he’s put back on ice with his crew. There’s still room for a TWOK later on.

1186. Bob Sasquatch - May 17, 2013

I always though that Khan Noonien Singh was a middle-aged Hispanic gentleman who sold cars with rich Corinthian Leather interiors and lived on an island. My bad.

It appears that TOS got Khan’s appearance wrong – “Sikhs who have undergone the khanḍe-kī-pahul, the Sikh initiation ceremony, can also be recognised by the Five Ks: uncut hair (Kesh); an iron/steel bracelet (kara); a Kirpan, a sword tucked in a gatra strap; Kachehra, a cotton undergarment; and a Kanga, a small wooden comb. Baptised male Sikhs must cover their hair with a turban.”

So I ask a simple question – why does Khan in “Space Seed” look the way he looks.

1187. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I’ve already posted the scene, twice, which I just described to you, in which they show they’ve known a hell of a lot about Khan Noonien Singh for a long time.

They didn’t recognize him for sure at first, but they knew what he was.

I shouldn’t have to “remind you” of what is in Space Seed, or have to keep posting scenes from the script.

>1182. LogicalLeopard – May 17, 2013
1154. William Bradley – May 17, 2013
Totally false.

******************************’

Remind us….did Kirk and Scotty know about Khan prior to McGivers giving them the rundown or not? My memory is that they did not recognize him or know much about him until they were briefed. Then, with that knowledge, they sort of taunted Spock by admiring him during a later meeting.

1188. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1181 – I think part of that was the fact that other early information ended up being wrong, or at least not entirely accurate.

For example, the report that Weller was playing a CEO type character. Now, I suppose if one reads that very broadly, the commander of starfleet is kinda like a CEO, but he is not literally a CEO.

That and other things like that I think led many of us to discount many early reports about the movie.

1189. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

@1184. Thanks Ahmed. :-)

1190. Dave H - May 17, 2013

#1183 / W Bradley: “Hardly. I’m saying very different things,,,””

#1187 / W Bradley: “I’ve already posted the scene, twice…”

LOL Hypocrite! You are repeating the same tired stuff over and over. Give it a rest, man.

1191. Robman007 - May 17, 2013

@1182…

McGivers figured out Khan’s identity right away. She failed to inform the Captain.

Kirk and Spock pieced it together then verified it with the ships computer banks.

Also, watch that episode again and you’ll see how First Contact destroyed TOS cannon by placing WW3 outside of the Eugenics Wars. Space Seed said they were one and the same….

Spock: The Mid 1990′s was the era of your last so called “world war”.
McCoy: The Eugenics Wars…

JJ was not the first to stretch cannon and pee on it

1192. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1190

Nice!

1193. rm10019 - May 17, 2013

1013 – James – No, that line means that Marcus brought in Pike, much as Pike brought in Kirk. Hemsworth is in the credits because there are audio samples of 2009 trek used in the ressurection moment for Kirk.

1194. rogerachong - May 17, 2013

@ boborci Bring back Nurse Chapel after she is rescued by Bones from Dr. Korby. Pretty please, maybe Rok could provide some anxious moments in an opening scene as well. Then you can bring in the merits of man vs machine as a theme in the new film, GATT 5000 could have an expanded role as well!!

1195. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Don’t whine and complain when I have to answer someone’s “question.”

If I didn’t, then you’d claim that showed I was wrong.

Don’t be so insecure about the movie. It will be a big hit. But the next one has to make sense or Star Trek will become an object of mockery.

>1190. Dave H – May 17, 2013
#1183 / W Bradley: “Hardly. I’m saying very different things,,,””

#1187 / W Bradley: “I’ve already posted the scene, twice…”

LOL Hypocrite! You are repeating the same tired stuff over and over. Give it a rest, man.

1196. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1191

And let’s not forget the LAST thing TOS writers were worried about back in the day was “canon”.

1197. JSM - May 17, 2013

Trek III: revenge of another villain(s)… ;)

That aside, I’d love Trek III to (as a sideline story perhaps) to wrap up the Spock-Prime character/situation, by having Nimoy return to the Prime Universe somehow (perhaps using Alien tech found on some STRANGE NEW WORLD – remember those?!), and into the bargain somehow meeting up with Prime Kirk who ISN’T DEAD (only the Nexus ‘echo’ version of himself died. Picard wasn’t interacting with the real character… I’m sure this could be retconned in satisfactorily… it’s Nu-Trek afterall! WINK!).

Having Nimoy around to always be there to warn Nu-Spock about perils faced before undermines a lot of tension… He needs to go back to his universe.

McCoy also needs to make the decision to destroy all evidence and traces of Khan’s “immortality” blood. Again that negates all future tension as anybody can be bought back from the brink of death… McCoy’s decision to do this could be a major part of the storyline (as a Doctor, he can now save ANYone. But morally does he have that right? CLASSIC Trek situation. He decides against it destroying all records of its existance, thereby creating drama and conflict with other crewmembers). Just a thought ;)

Having these two reunited would provide much of the required emotional resonance in Trek III, neatly wrap up/redo the appalling ‘Kirk’s Death’ in Generations & make that a distant memory, have Spock & the good Capt’n back in their ‘proper’ Universe again (and we can then LEAVE them there, without needing to kill anybody off or anything silly. Have them going off into some alien sunset…), and have the Nu-Trek crew free at last from all shackles from the original Trek, free to finally start branching out and doing its own thing, either as more films or (better) a TV series…

Have it all wrapped up and Classic and Nu-Trek both free to go their own ways. Really think at this point it’d be best all around…

1198. Jefferies Tuber - May 17, 2013

Okay, it’s Friday and I’m marking it as 12:37pm PST that I’m now bored of the Khanversation.

The Undiscovered Country was on the tube last night. I’m surprised so few people are talking about STID’s common ground with that story–also a false flag terrorist strike that requires Kirk to conquer his own thirst for revenge before his real enemy can be defeated.

I’m not criticizing KOL and JJBB for the similarities. But I am wondering if it’s all done in the context of Bob’s time travel theories, the quantum mechanics argument that certain events are more probable than others in a multiverse, and the filmmakers’ desire to flush out as much of canon as possible in this accelerated timeline. In other words, are all of the shared elements of STID and II, III and VI a one-time thing? I’ve laid out the idea that the first two movies are a kind of Young Adult prequel [like THE HOBBIT] to the infamous five year mission.

I certainly hope so. The most annoying thing about STID in comparison to ST09 is the briskness of the filmmaking. KOL clearly wrote a lot more content in the script and the comics, with explanations, connections and character arcs that were cut because of JJ’s dislike of ‘talking heads’ Star Trek.

All of this is another way of saying what no one else has said here: Thank God, I mean, Thank Roddenberry’s Ghost that they got Khan out of the way. At least we won’t have to restart the damn Khanversation until 2016 at the earliest.

1199. Dennis C - May 17, 2013

I was really surpised by the number of people in the theater who hadn’t realized that it was Khan. Some actually groaned, others clapped, others dead silence.

In the end it’s just a movie. Like it or not it’s just a movie.

1200. HubcapDave - May 17, 2013

@1191

And just to illustrate my point, other episodes of TOS and TNG put “World War II” as occurring in the mid-21st century.

Canon-Schmanon

1201. Jefferies Tuber - May 17, 2013

Pfft! http://dailycurrant.com/2013/05/16/ann-coulter-walks-out-of-star-trek-claims-too-many-minorities/

1202. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1198 – I don’t know if I’ve said it here, but I know I’ve said it elsewhere:

I don’t get the people who criticize the movie because some characters in it (Admiral Marcus, namely) don’t fit in with Roddenberry’s vision. It is quite similar to, as you note, The Undiscovered Country and Admiral Cartwright.

Of course, with Khan back in stasis, that opens up any number future plotlines involving him. Maybe his capsule breaks down and he wakes up. Maybe another rouge Admiral decides to use him. Maybe Romulan infiltrators sneak in and wake him up.

1203. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1202 – thankfully the Daily Currant is satire, though I wouldn’t be shocked by that either lol

1204. Lostrod - May 17, 2013

Yikes. Too many comments to catch up on at this point. Finally saw the movie last night in 3D. Some random notes:

- Very small crowd at the theater
- No real promotion on site – still had the original poster displayed
- Why did it take Uhura so many shots with the phaser to stun Khan when Scotty did it with one shot earlier?

Overall, an enjoyable film but also disappointing by the Khan rehash. I always suspected that Knan would be in the film, I just didn’t expect the key sequences to be re-worked as they were.

Why couldn’t they have included a throwaway line to explain the change in Khan’s appearance?:

Harrison: “Marcus kept me as his big secret weapon – even changed my face and voice so no one would recognize me …”

Also thought the refit of the Enterprise was a wasted opportunity to tweak the design a bit more like the TOS version.

Regards.

1205. Ahmed - May 17, 2013

@1201. Jefferies Tuber

dude, The Daily Current is a satirical news site. True, I don’t like Ann Coulter at all, but this news item is false.

1206. Josh C. - May 17, 2013

1205 – I had wondered that with Scotty too. One theory is that Scotty didn’t actually stun him and Khan just dropped in order to trick them. Even if he was stunned, he woke up pretty fast. Maybe his body “adapted” somehow to the stun setting?

1207. MJ (The Guy Who Correctly Deduced it was Khan Way Back in Fall 2011) - May 17, 2013

“Also thought the refit of the Enterprise was a wasted opportunity to tweak the design a bit more like the TOS version.”

Lostrod, I do agree with you there. I was so hoping when they shown the revitizlized E that we would see TMP-style rectangular nacelles instead of the bulbous things on the current E.

1208. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I like that comparison.

Before shifting gears, speaking of comparisons to past movies, I’m surprised no one is getting that Star Trek Into Darkness is the Die Another Day of Trek films.

Check it out : Bond faces a classic Bond super-villain with a weapon of mass destruction. He’s an Asian guy who goes through mumbo-jumbo gene therapy to become, wait for it, a lily-white uber-Englishman. A very declamatory Englishman, a very arrogant Englishman, a very athletic Englishman, with a smashing blonde English rose henchwoman … Hang on, in STID, she’s not Khan’s henchwoman, she’s the daughter of the real villain. So it’s really wildly different … :)

Bond is unable to defeat this super-villain on his own, and only does so as part of a team, learning team work after being cast out early on by his own organization … :)

Die Another Day was a BIG hit, the biggest grossing Bond film to date.

But after a strong first hour, the second hour was so wildly over the top, so bizarre in its plotting and dependent on special effects, that it became widely mocked.

The Bond producers decided to reboot the series, getting rid of their quite decent lead actor in the process, going in a different more realistic direction. And so on.

>1198. Jefferies Tuber – May 17, 2013
Okay, it’s Friday and I’m marking it as 12:37pm PST that I’m now bored of the Khanversation.

The Undiscovered Country was on the tube last night. I’m surprised so few people are talking about STID’s common ground with that story

1209. LizardGirl - May 17, 2013

I just got back from the theater and STID warrents the hype. It’s that good! Loved it!

*Sigh* now I’ll go back to comment #1 and start reading I guess…

1210. Dave H - May 17, 2013

W Bradley: “Don’t be so insecure about the movie.”

Insecure? You are the one who has posted 60+ times here about your negative opinions of the movie — one out of every twenty posts here has been by you. And it you go look at your posts again, you will see that you are repeating many of the same topics over and over.

60+ posts!

Whoops, I forgot how you hated it when people bring up measurable things like numbers. Sorry, my bad. ;-0

1211. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Hail, hail, fire and snow, call the Orci we will go, far away, for to see, friendly Orci come to me

1212. Dave H - May 17, 2013

And five of the last thirty posts here are by W Bradley. So his incessant posting rate is now increasing — currently up to about 17% of all posts being his.

1213. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2013

@1166. William Bradley,
“But if the sort of bad moves made in this story are repeated in the next one, Star Trek is going to be in big trouble. Because it’s going to be mocked. Even most of the positive reviews this movie gets have tremendous criticisms within them.”

How do you figure? Who’s going to mock it? The fans? We count for only a small percentage of the audience expected to see this film, and the majority of us seem to like it.

And what’s to Mock? Transformers has made billions of dollars worldwide and shows no signs of slowing down. And the critics reviews of those films were scathing! Not to mention the bad word of mouth, huge plot holes and contrivances.

I just don’t see it. I think the TWOK stuff doesn’t work for many fans (at first anyway) but fresh audiences won’t recognize it. There’s some technology stuff that doesn’t make sense to fans, but again newbies will have nothing to base it on. The blood thing is a stretch, mainly for fans, but again not out of the realm of Summer popcorn blockbuster fare.

When you look at it that way, I’m not sure I see the problems you are anticipating a general audience will mock. And the fans just don’t matter anymore, but I don’t see a majority of us walking away from the franchise because of anything Abrams did in STID. There’s plenty I don’t agree with in STID, but I still see it as an entertaining film, and will be interested to see what they do in the future. You bet I will be back, mocking or not.

1214. Christopher Planeaux - May 17, 2013

I will add just brief comments to this flailing chorus:

1) Great, entertaining movie. I enjoyed it (self professed 35yr convention attending Trekkie / Trekker talking here). It was easy to follow, interesting story, strong characters, good amount of humor, lots of action. The ancient Roman in me realized the movie served its purpose: it entertained me.

2) Geek defense of movie: they RESET the timeline. Some things will be the same, some things will be different. Yes, they collapsed Space Seed and (aspects of) TWOK (and, I would argue, key points that surfaced in Undiscovered Country [Director's Cut]) into a single story, but THAT’s the exact point of a timeline reset. Major thrusts of history will still proceed in the same direction (according to most theories on time travel), the details change.

3) I, for one, saw the engineering scene as a homage to TWOK. This time, however, it served to cement Spock’s feelings / relationship to Kirk — as opposed to the culmination / statement of that relationship in the Prime timeline. I got it. Watching Spock go batshit berserk on Khan because he caused the death of Kirk was AWESOME!

4) Khan was indeed a villain and continued to be a villain after Adm. Marcus lost control of him (um, he tried to destroy Starfleet Headquarters and took out half of San Fransisco; I’d say that’s kinda bad) — just wished they would have used the term “augment” at least once [knitpick] — and the movie made it clear that if the other 72 were revived, the Federation would have a major problem on its hands [I hope to see that storyline before I die].

5) Finally, what goes on in these movies, sorry this timeline, in no way affects (detracts, adds, complements, decries) anything from the TOS, TAS, the Movies or anything else. It’s a new universe with familiar trappings, but, most importantly, a new audience of [hopefully] Trek fans. It simply cannot be your father’s Star Trek. That Start Trek grew stale, repetitive, and trapped by its own writers guide.

1215. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

I will repeat what I told the other whiner, if I didn’t reply to you, you would claim I agreed with your point.

Not that you have made a substantive point here.

Like I said, don’t be so insecure about the movie. It’s a big hit. I must be wrong.

>1210. Dave H – May 17, 2013
W Bradley: “Don’t be so insecure about the movie.”

Insecure? You are the one who has posted 60+ times here about your negative opinions of the movie — one out of every twenty posts here has been by you. And it you go look at your posts again, you will see that you are repeating many of the same topics over and over.

60+ posts!

Whoops, I forgot how you hated it when people bring up measurable things like numbers. Sorry, my bad. ;-0

1216. DiscoSpock - May 17, 2013

Dave H,

The operative terms for this are “myopia” and “process over substance.”

1217. Basement Blogger - May 17, 2013

@ 1211

Emperor Mike in your universe that’s how you summon Bob Orci. In this universe say this three times.

“JFK was killed by a lone gunman. Bob Orci, I summon thee”

1218. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 17, 2013

Ok Blogger.

JFK Was Killed by a lone Gunman!. JFK Was killed by a lone Gunman. JFK Was killed by a lone Gunman.
Bob Orci. I summon You.

1219. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

1187. William Bradley – May 17, 2013
I’ve already posted the scene, twice, which I just described to you, in which they show they’ve known a hell of a lot about Khan Noonien Singh for a long time.

They didn’t recognize him for sure at first, but they knew what he was.

I shouldn’t have to “remind you” of what is in Space Seed, or have to keep posting scenes from the script.

**********************

Well, sheesh, sorry for asking! *L* I”m sorry, I logged on today and didn’t take the time to read the preceding thousand plus comments. I did recheck your comments and go back to the 800′s to find your Space Seed repost. My memory of it wasn’t accurate. But anyway, it proves what I’m saying – people knew about Khan. So it makes sense that he changes his appearance before he’s recognized.

1220. DiscoSpock - May 17, 2013

William Bradley: “I must be wrong.”

Well, at least we can all agree on that.

1221. gavabot - May 17, 2013

@1186 “So I ask a simple question – why does Khan in “Space Seed” look the way he looks.”

It was the 60s and it was easier to cast a latino man instead of an Indian.

Nowadays, one would think that isn’t a problem anymore.

Also, not all sikh’s follow the religion strictly, just as not all jewish people are orthodox. So being a ruthless dictator with a superiority complex, it is entirely plausable that Khan renounced his religion.

You should also note that “Khan” is not traditionally a punjabi/sikh surname! So they messed up there too!

1222. psb2009 - May 17, 2013

After reading these posts, I was ready to be disappointed with the movie. Just got back from seeing it- thought it was great!

1223. gavabot - May 17, 2013

oops…i messed up with the last part…Singh is totally a traditional punjabi/sikh lastname

1224. Roytheboy - May 17, 2013

Loved the film, need to watch it a couple more times to see all the nods to TOS. I thought that USS Vengance with its lack of crew, and the male voice of the ships computer was Daystrom’s M5 (from the TOS episode Ultimate Computer) or a version of it.

1225. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

So insecure, so petty, so snarky and substance-free, soooo … yawn.

>1220. DiscoSpock – May 17, 2013
William Bradley: “I must be wrong.”

Well, at least we can all agree on that.

1226. RBanks - May 17, 2013

This is probably an odd question, but does anyone know the general rule for how long a film like STID will be in regular (non-IMAX) theaters?

I really want to see this on the big screen, but I’m currently unable to go see it. Just a ballpark figure would help me plan ahead.

I’m enjoying reading everyone’s reviews, both positive, and negative. I loved ST09, so I have no doubt I’ll love STID.

Thanks in advance!

1227. William Bradley - May 17, 2013

Actually, it is the exact opposite of what you said. You said the Enterprise officers didn’t know who Khan Noonien Singh was, when the Space Seed script makes it crystal clear that they did. They just didn’t recognize him off-hand, since he’s from hundreds of years ago. Just as no one today would recognize Frederick the Great if he dropped through the skylight.

But, like Khan, the real Khan, I grow fatigued … :)

>1219. LogicalLeopard – May 17, 2013
My memory of it wasn’t accurate. But anyway, it proves what I’m saying – people knew about Khan. So it makes sense that he changes his appearance before he’s recognized.

1228. LogicalLeopard - May 17, 2013

You know, here’s my rule of thumb with dealing with plotholes:

If you can think of a valid, logical justification within 30 seconds, it’s fine.

Examples:

1) Khan being white -plastic surgery to conceal the fact he once ruled a large part of humanity

2) Magic blood – Not just blood, but a serum with other chemicals/matter created using a liberal portion of his blood.

3) Praxis – Exploded early due to stepped-up mining after the Nero Incident. I don’t know what makes a moon explode anyway in the first place, but if there are unstable elements/unsafe mining practices that can blow one up, it can certainly be done earlier.

3)Carol Marcus’ english accent – Grew up in England in this reality, father was stationed there after shifts in SF personnel caused by the Nero Incident.

Things that aren’t so easy to explain are plotholes

1) Nobody approaching or hailing the Enterprise or Vengeance while they fought near the moon

2) Nobody challenging Scotty when he approached the secret Jupiter base

1229. PEB - May 17, 2013

@1198 I just saw the movie in the theater and I have to agree with you Jefferies Tuber! I was sitting there thinking, OMG this reminds me of STTUC when Admiral Marcus was going on with his rant. And I actually liked it. ST09 WAS about something (no matter how many of the posters here want to say it wasn’t) but this film did have something to say about the conscious of a government/group/organization and again it dealt with the meaning of friendship and family. I have to say, yes there were parts of the film that weren’t GREAT but that’s very common with Star Trek films and overally it was a hell of a Star Trek film. That’s what I will give STID over ST09, this movie, when you broke it down to its bare bones and stripped away some of what we’d gotten before, was Star Trek in the Gene Roddenberry sense. It had a message that it delivered amid the spectacle and the uniforms and the fun.

The reactor scene was hit and miss for me. Seeing Kirk save the ship was actually something that I could EASILY have seen him do. Kirk WOULD be the one to sacrifice himself if it meant that the E and her crew would survive. And while some of it bugged me, I also understood why the dialogue was so similar to TWK, it was just the whole idea that sure it’s an alternate reality but why would the situation play out INCREDIBLY different than what we’ve seen before? Spock yelling Khaaaaan was just cringe-worthy, but I liked seeing Sulu in the chair and the many different lines he got alluding to one day being Captain Sulu *wink wink at the audience*.

The Spock prime cameo wasn’t pointless, and he got huge applause in the theater I was in. We all know he’s around in this timeline and I mean really, if you knew your older self was around would you not call him up and ask him how he dealt with an immeanse problem that you aren’t sure how to handle? It just kind of makes sense.

Loved seeing more of the Enterprise and LOVED that the Warp Core was filmed at NIF http://news.yahoo.com/star-trek-fusion-lab-fantasy-meets-real-life-175421955.html !!! Everyone in the film had something to do and again, for people calling Khan the villain here, he really wasn’t. Admiral Marcus was the villain. And I dont think that Khan was ever really meant to be the villain but meant to ask yourself (the audience) what really makes a villain a villain and when are his actions justified or are they even? That whole plot point really defines this film. Again, no, it’s not the best Trek ever but it was leaps and bounds better than ST09 and that’s coming from someone who not only loved ST09, but constantly watches TOS/TOS blurays and has always been a Trek fan.

I really hope JJ comes back to finish off his trilogy wit