Fan Films: “Prelude to Axanar” Trailer Released | TrekMovie.com
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Fan Films: “Prelude to Axanar” Trailer Released June 11, 2014

by Kayla Iacovino , Filed under: Fan Productions , trackback

The team from Prelude to Axanar, a Trek fan film that raised over $100k on its Kickstarter just this March, has released its first teaser trailer. The film boasts an impressive cast and crew, including Richard Hatch, Michael Hogan, JG Hertzler, and Gary Graham (reprising his role as Vulcan ambassador Soval). The visual effects artist, Tobias Richter, really shows his chops in this nearly three minute trailer. The graphics and cinematography are impressive; can the full length film live up to the trailer? Check it out below and tell us what you think in the comments.

Prelude to Axanar
Prelude tells the story of the Battle of Axanar, from the point of view of the men and women who served in it, on all sides.

PRELUDE TO AXANAR is a transmission from Memory Alpha and the Federation Historical Society recounting the famous Battle of Axanar, the decisive victory won by Captain Garth of Izar, bringing the Four Years War to a conclusion and the first tenuous peace between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire. This special details accounts from the actual participants who were there, fighting, and changed the face of the Alpha Quadrant forever.

This trailer just the beginning
This teaser trailer, only three minutes long, is the first to be released. Soon, the team will be releasing the full five minute trailer. The short film itself, which is 20 minutes long, will premier at this year’s San Diego Comicon. This July, the team will run another Kickstarter campaign to fund the full feature, which is poised to begin production (budget allowing) this Fall.

“This is the first trailer we will release for Prelude to Axanar. We have one that is twice as long we will release later this month,”

says Alec Peters, who plays a member of Starfleet in the film (and even helped design the Axanar Starfleet tunics!).

 


 

Comments

1. Harry Ballz - June 11, 2014

You’ve got to admire the effort!

2. Ryan T. Husk - June 11, 2014

Amazing. Professional. Glorious.

3. Richard Neal - June 11, 2014

This is the best looking Trek trailer that I’ve seen. I’m excited to see the finished movie!

4. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

Make sure you watch in full HD!

5. John Macek - June 11, 2014

This looks so professional, I’d expect to see it on the big screen.

6. Sarah Linsley - June 11, 2014

Prelude to Axanar looks incredible and looks like it will blend in perfectly with Star Trek canon. I’m excited to see the movie, and looking forward to Axanar!

7. theHarrington - June 11, 2014

Ye gods and little fishes that is awesome. It is always good to see Trek done with a different form of story telling. The bar has been raised and there is a new gold standard by witch Star Trek Fan films are going to be judged.

8. Joshua - June 11, 2014

Can’t wait for the 2nd trailer Alec. Standing by…

Feel like a addict waiting for my next fix for the trek drug….

9. Don Albares - June 11, 2014

This is the most amazing thing to happen in Independent ‘Fan’ Films….ever.This is the trailer for Prelude to Axanar….which will be followed by Star Trek: Axanar. This is a new standard of “fan film” that makes CBS/Paramount and Abrams/Orci/Kurtzman hang their collective heads in shame. Real true-to-canon Star Trek with big studio production values. Alec Peters producing, Christian Gossett directing, Tobias Richter effects. This is the story of legendary Fleet Captain Garth of Izar, Kirk’s hero and the Battle of Axanar, which turned the tide in the Federation’s war with the Klingon Empire. Some big names have joined this production. Tony Todd as Admiral Ramirez, Richard Hatch as Klingon General Kharn, Gary Graham as Vulcan Ambassador Soval, Kate Vernon as Captain Sonya Alexander, JG Hertzler as Captain Samuel Travis, Michael Hogan as Captain Robert April, first captain of the brand-new USS Enterprise, and Alec Peters as Garth. This is REAL Star Trek….the way it was meant to be.

10. Greek George - June 11, 2014

Makes me want more Star Trek TOS era on TV – right now! This is a beautiful work of love!

11. Oscar - June 11, 2014

WOW, awesome. This deserves a trilogy
Star trek : prelude to Axanar
Star Trek : flags of our fathers.
Star Trek: letters from Qo’nos

12. John MacEnulty - June 11, 2014

This is what a Star Trek movie should look like. I can not WAIT to see the final product

13. Neal Fischer - June 11, 2014

YES… Watch this in HD! So proud to be a part of this project!

14. Scott V - June 11, 2014

Now that is Star Trek! Cannot wait to see the final product.

15. Chris - June 11, 2014

Can’t wait to see more. Loved the look of the battle scenes plus all of the cgi used for some of the sets too.

16. EremiticWolf - June 11, 2014

The cast and crew that are making this movie are awesome! Can not wait until this and the feature film is released!

17. Jake - June 11, 2014

This was insanely impressive. For anyone wondering, this is just the trailer to the upcoming “Prelude to Axanar”, a short film shot in documentary format, leading up to the events that will be depicted in Star Trek: Axanar, the feature length. Either way, I was blown away by how amazing this looks, storyline as well as effects.

18. CmdrR - June 11, 2014

Kayla, you’re the best!

Dang that I have to wait until I get home. They frown on my watching Trek at work.

19. Dan Spence - June 11, 2014

Great movie. I’m glad I could be a part of the Kickstarter campaign.

20. Phil - June 11, 2014

No observations, other then that you can see the Bad Robot influence…the JJ haters are not likely to be pleased.

21. Duane Boda - June 11, 2014

This preview was excellent. New blood with better idea’s executed

in a remarkable fashion. I wish some studio other then Paramount

would finally take over this franchise to give it the new direction its

sorely needs. Efforts like this deserve a decent budget for even a

wider scope. This could possibly reach the grandness of Star Wars.

22. Spock's Bangs - June 11, 2014

$100,000.00 and all the team can put together is a 20 minute short? If a fan film can’t at least get an hour long episode “in the can” with that kind of budget, something is wrong.

23. MagicDan - June 11, 2014

Awesome looking trailer! I really like the storytelling style. Can’t wait to see more.

@#10 – $100,000 is almost nothing for a fan film of this quality. Lots of talent attached, highest quality special effects and filming. I see nothing wrong so far. I hope they get more and keep going.

24. DJT - June 11, 2014

Impressive. They can make ..a trailer.

25. Mike Barnett - June 11, 2014

VERY impressive!!!

26. dennycranium - June 11, 2014

Well done, Axanar!
I’m sure you’re going to surprise everyone!

27. Hat Rick - June 11, 2014

Is it wrong to love a trailer?

My friends, I am in love.

28. Buzz Cagney - June 11, 2014

Wow! Fans made this? Amazing.

29. Jennifer Roberson - June 11, 2014

I can’t say enough about how much I love the trailer – can’t wait for Prelude to be released, and then the full feature! Awesome work, a job well done by everyone in front of and behind the cameras!

30. Hat Rick - June 11, 2014

I am getting the same feeling I’m getting in the prelude to “Star Trek: Enterprise.” I had such high hopes for “Enterprise,” I was delirious. This is the kind of buzz that I think the world deserves.

If only CBS would air this as a commercial…. They would have a hit on their hands, should they back it with the financing it well and truly deserves.

CBS, if you don’t read this board, you’re fairly dumb. And if you do, and fail to air this trailer as a freebie — even as a one-off, then I don’t know what to say. Stop hedging your corporate bets, and take a chance on the future.

After all, that’s all we’ve got.

My friends at the Axanar production company, I don’t know you. I have never met you. But I feel I know you. And please feel free to use my comments to promote this effort. You have restored part of my faith in humanity.

Live long and prosper.

31. The Keeper - June 11, 2014

What a refreshing surprise, another fan made war driven Star Trek film..just what we needed.
How many of these are there now? Not counting the Star Trek Online war games?
And fans call JJ’s Trek his Star Wars test reels…LOL

At least there’s continuity in thinking even when the true fans say there isn’t.

Real Star Trek is dead.
We will not see the likes of it ever again. The down fall started with TNG and is completed here amoung the fans.

32. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

This is the trailer to the short film “Prelude to Axanar”. That means the full 20-25 minute short is coming. And we only got $80,000 of the $100,000, which if you read our Kickstarter we clearly explain. And yes, a fan film can do it for a lot less. But we aren’t a fan film.

The film was all shot by professionals, in front and behind the camera. And when you use shoot in a professional sound stage and not a warehouse, and you have to fund and organize a full professional shoot, and use TWO Red cameras with professional cast, then doing it for $ 70,000 (the final budget) is pretty damn good.

33. Marja - June 11, 2014

Holy crap, is that Tony Todd?? And wow. SFX look great [to me] and I look forward to the story. I LOVED SEEING A FEMALE CAPTAIN!!!

Good luck Axanar. I look forward to seeing the movie.

34. dscott - June 11, 2014

There’s some REAL mean basement dwellers here, Alec. You don’t need to defend yourself – certainly not to those guys.

35. Steve - June 11, 2014

This is a fantastic trailer. The only thing that takes me out of these fan films (apart from Phase II and Continues) is the use of computer / MIDI soundtracks. If it were possible to use the orchestral soundtracks from previous shows and films it would add to the effect that much more.

36. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 11, 2014

Just watched.

Nice trailer. just nice.

It seemed to have alot of shots that could make up a great trailer. The professional level of acting is a boost to the production. Sadly, this trailer seemed to be missing the mark all the way through. I was not sure what I was watching. The production quality seemed impressive, but what I think it needs is a re-edit showcasing more of the story.

Should’nt you all just abandon Trek and go with a completely new sci-fi brand? Hell, look. You all went through this much trouble to make a fan based Star Trek series. I say kudos, but I would consider trying to make something original next time, so that you can make a profit.

37. Don Albares - June 11, 2014

This is the trailer for Prelude to Axanar….which will be followed by Star Trek: Axanar. This is a new standard of independent “fan film” true to Gene Roddenberry’s vision. Real true-to-canon Star Trek with big studio production values. Alec Peters producing, Christian Gossett directing, Tobias Richter effects. This is the story of legendary Fleet Captain Garth of Izar, Kirk’s hero and the Battle of Axanar, which turned the tide in the Federation’s war with the Klingon Empire. Some big names have joined this production. Tony Todd as Admiral Ramirez, Richard Hatch as Klingon General Kharn, Gary Graham as Vulcan Ambassador Soval, Kate Vernon as Captain Sonya Alexander, JG Hertzler as Captain Samuel Travis, Michael Hogan as Captain Robert April, first captain of the brand-new USS Enterprise, and Alec Peters as Garth.

38. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 11, 2014

11. MagicDan

2nd that.

39. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 11, 2014

25. TrekMadeMeWonder

Wrong post. I meant to praise #10. Spock’s Bangs comment.

2nd that!

40. Lewis Kilgo - June 11, 2014

The trailer has me excited, and I’m really looking forward to the finished works, both Prelude and the Axanar movie itself.

Remember that the Four Years’ War, and Captain Garth’s decisive victory at Axanar, are a part of TOS canon (Whom Gods Destroy). It’s a story that fans have been wanting to see for a long time. Some of the best character-driven stories are war stories, as long as the war is merely the setting, and not the entire point.

And for those complaining about the budget, I’m pretty sure that the big studios blow more than 100 grand just on wardrobe. :P

41. northstar - June 11, 2014

TrekMadeMeWonder – you obviously did not get the basic idea. There is no “story” in the short movie. It is supposed to be a war documentary. And I think it hits it right in the middle for that purpose. To tell Robert Burnett to do a reedit – wow.

42. Corinthian7 - June 11, 2014

Wow that looks great, can’t wait to see the finished product.

43. John - June 11, 2014

Kate Vernon and especially Tony Todd’s performance at the end gave me chills! Looking forward to this one!

44. Trekbilly - June 11, 2014

Is that Erin Gray too??

45. GShep - June 11, 2014

@24,

The passion for this production was to tell the story of Garth of Izar, who is considered by many to have been one of the paragons against which all other captains must measure up to. Kirk actually said Garth was one of his hero’s. So, this is a missing chapter in the Trek Universe that many people over the years have expressed a desire to learn more about.

Have a good one sir!

46. D D - June 11, 2014

Wow looks good! Why can’t the main tv channels pick this up? This could be the basis for a gritty science fiction series that might just appeal to a wider audience other than trekkers. Look forward to seeing more of this.

47. Bill Murray - June 11, 2014

Gives me chills. Love it. Cannot wait to see the full finished product. TREK LIVES!

48. BatlethInTheGroin - June 11, 2014

#10: So in other words, you know NOTHING about budgets, Hollywood salaries, special effects costs, etc. Got it.

49. GKitty - June 11, 2014

TRULY impressive work, here. Some big-time players give this production major sci-fi cred from the get-go (seriously… JG Hertzler? Tony Todd? Kate Vernon? AND Gary Graham? Hard to top that lineup!), and those absolutely gorgeous special FX (by no less than the amazing Tobias Richter)?! Whoa. Definitely not “fan-film” caliber; this actually deserves the title “independent film”!

Not sure what decade (century, more like it), those grousing about the budget are still living in, but knowing what everything else costs in 2014, I’m mightily impressed a twenty-minute film that looks as fabulous as this trailer does can actually be made for a mere $80k. The good stuff in life doesn’t come cheaply, y’all… but it’s worth it. Can’t wait to see the whole short film! :)

50. Lee Benjamin - June 11, 2014

This project has attracted so many professional movie people, it’s not suprising the great results they’re getting. l Love It!

51. James - June 11, 2014

Remarkable. This looks completely professional – brilliant!

That said – I’d prefer a story that wasn’t about the Klingons and war,but if that’s the story that they want to tell then this looks about the best way to do it.

Real actors and wonderful VFX, I like the fusion of new and old Star Trek in the CG work. Beautiful :)

52. EC Henry - June 11, 2014

Anybody who’s upset about the war theme obviously wasn’t watching too closely. Even in this short trailer, they address the struggle of keeping true to the goals and ‘message’ of the Federation during an inevitable war.

There are still those who wish to wage war in the Star Trek universe, and the film looks like it will wrestle with the questions of what it means to fight to protect the freedom and peace that the Federation stands for. It’s not just an excuse to have cool battle scenes.

53. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

I am always amazed at the knee jerk reaction of some Star Trek fans about “War”. Like a war can’t happen in Star Trek? And war is just a setting. War is generally not the story. Not unless you are doing “Midway” or “A Bridge Too Far”. A war is a setting in which you tell a story, in which you build characters.

And if you bothered to actually watch the trailer you would see how the values of Gene Rodenberry are actually part of both the Admiral’s speech, as well as Garth’s comments.

54. Sean4000 - June 11, 2014

That was the best Star Trek I’ve seen in a very long time!

55. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

And to the guy who thinks the trailer needs to be re-edited, really? You want to tell Robert Burnett, an accomplished writer/director/editor who produces the CBS Star Trek Blu-Rays and wrote and directed “Free Enterprise” that his trailer needs to be re-edited. You obviously have no clue.

Since you are just about the only person who has made this comment, and since you also agree with the guy who couldn’t understand how a professional movie production could spend $ 100,000 on a 20-25 minute short film, maybe commenting on these productions isn’t your strong suit.

And finally, your comment “I would consider trying to make something original next time, so that you can make a profit.” shows how supremely naive you are about why we are doing this. So let me enlighten you. We are here to prove we can make feature-quality Star Trek on a tiny budget.

And judging by all the comments all over the Internet today, we hit our mark.

56. Paul - June 11, 2014

This is going to be awesome! I’m on the edge of my set!

57. Keachick (Rose) - June 11, 2014

This trailer looks very good and does promise to be a good film, once completed, in its own right.

One way to look at this is that fans who like to see war and all the gore, horror, stupidity “in which you build characters” in their Star Trek can see this done well in these fan made productions.

That means that Bad Robot can get on with making a Star Trek that won’t need war as a setting “in which you build characters”.

It could really be a Win/Win…

Are you getting this, Bob Orci (director)?
Good man!

58. dennycranium - June 11, 2014

Just prove the naysayers wrong, Alec.
It’s easy being 10 feet tall behind a keyboard.
I think you’ve got a huge hit here.
Don’t let the cheesedicks get you down…..

59. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

Thanks Denny! Always appreciate your support!

60. Ahmed - June 11, 2014

A beautiful trailer & very impressive cast, can’t wait to see the short film.

61. Ahmed - June 11, 2014

@ 8. Phil – June 11, 2014

“No observations, other then that you can see the Bad Robot influence…the JJ haters are not likely to be pleased.”

So, you have no comment on the actual trailer & only post to talk about the so called “BR influence” ?

62. Doug - June 11, 2014

In a word – WOW. Can’t wait!!

63. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

SHIP DESIGN:

While Axanar happens in the prime timeline, we assumed that the ship design you see in JJ’s Star Trek 2009 (JJ Trek time frame 2250’s) would remain somewhat constant. So we took those designs, augmented them with a few other designs and then retorfitted them all with TOS/Axanar style nacelles.

We are as big a Star Trek geeks as anyone, and we gave this serious consideration and thought. You don’t like that design process, come up with a better one. (and then go make your own Star Trek movie).

I happen to dislike STID enormously, that doesn’t mean I am a blind JJ hater.

64. ziplock9000 - June 11, 2014

Absolutely first class, as good as any blockbuster in quality, acting etc. But most of all it ‘feels’ right. I feel like I’ve had a nice shower after getting dirty from JJ’s abominations.

Well done and can’t wait to see the whole thing!

65. Phil - June 11, 2014

@42. Nope. This isn’t the thread for offering up any comment that isn’t in full agreement that the trailer is wonderful.

The BR influence is just an observation. Nothing ‘so called’ about it.

66. Phil - June 11, 2014

@43. Cool your jets. It’s just an observation of the BR influence. And that’s not an insult. If others want to rag on that, that’s on them, but it’s a pointless exercise here.

Christ, I should have known better.

67. Alex Rosenzweig - June 11, 2014

I’ve watched the trailer half a dozen times now, and I am prouder every time that I have supported this effort. The VFX are awesome, yes, but what’s even better is that they never overshadow the story being told. And the performances are tremendous, delivering the emotions and the intensity that still echoes for these characters, even years after the war ended.

68. Alex Rosenzweig - June 11, 2014

BTW, on the matter of ship design, if one imagines the Kelvin and other ships of that tech level to be reflective of StarFleet in the 2210s-2230s, then they’d be in both timelines. What the ships in “Axanar” do is move that tech forward a bit in the prime timeline, and do so in a way that one can see them gradually moving toward TOS tech. I think the design work has been excellent.

69. Rear Admiral Jon - June 11, 2014

For anyone interested, STARFLEET International is the official fan club partner for Star Trek: Axanar, and we’ll be featuring some exclusive Axanar content in the summer issue of our newsletter. If you join before June 30, you’ll receive the issue (or can download it) when it comes out. Our website is http://www.sfi.org. We’re REALLY excited about this film!

70. Ahmed - June 11, 2014

I like the fact that they are using documentary format this time, that is something different from what we have seen before.

The reaction on Reddit is very supportive & encouraging.

http://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/27vv37/fan_film_trailer_star_trek_prelude_to_axanar_i/

71. JR - June 11, 2014

Now this IS STAR TREK…. Finally!

72. Keachick (Rose) - June 11, 2014

What’s a cheesedick?

73. Rod - June 11, 2014

This is awesome. The actors were what made me back this – they are SciFi icons in a lot of ways. The trailer..wow…wow…..better than I could imagine and it’s top quality.

74. Trek in a Cafe - June 11, 2014

I think there’s more of a BSG influence than a BR. And that’s good to me.

It’s great that it’s an untold story. The stakes feel totally real.

I’m a filmmaker and you can see, hear and feel the pacing of really good work.

75. Hat Rick - June 11, 2014

There’s overwhelming support for this effort and I am most encouraged. To Alec and other people associated with this production: Don’t let the naysayers (as few as they are) get you down. Remember the skepticism that TOS encountered around half a century ago. Entire television networks (UPN, anyone?) have come and gone, and Star Trek persists.

Keep on Trekkin’!

76. Mark Anton - June 11, 2014

Some of those starships look amazing. I’ll definitely watch it!

77. drew - June 11, 2014

uh… WOW!!!!!!!!!

78. Lemingsworth Bint - June 11, 2014

32. Alec Peters – June 11, 2014
But we aren’t a fan film.

Your soon to be attorneys kindly ask that you refrain from saying this again.

79. Tpr - June 11, 2014

@The Keeper
you got that this is about the “four years war” right? You heard Tony Todd talk about how he did not want to lose what the Federation stood for?
this is a sci fi war short about how sucky war is…and it is set in the trek universe. it is also a great Sci fi adventure with cool ships going pew pew.
Star Trek has had many stories about war (Balance of Terror, the Enterprise Incident, Star trek VI, the last 2 seasons of DS9, etc.) so I really don’t get your comments.

80. CmdrR - June 11, 2014

Excellent trailer.

81. Lewis Kilgo - June 11, 2014

77. Lemingsworth Bint

“fan-funded non-profit independent production”

jeez, semantics *rolls eyes*

82. GShep - June 11, 2014

You never know when some Corp. Exec. someplace might “wakeup” and get all bent out of shape! In a sense, that would be high tribute. It would still suck however!

83. Phil - June 11, 2014

@72. For polite company, a jerk.

84. Lewis Kilgo - June 11, 2014

With so many industry professionals involved, I’m pretty sure the legal bases have been covered.

Hopefully, the folks at Paramount/CBS are paying attention to how the general public responds to this, not just Trek fans. ;)

Based on what I’ve seen so far, I expect the response to be very positive.

85. Eric Kile - June 11, 2014

Watching this was amazing, can’t wait for more!

86. Cygnus-X1 - June 11, 2014

66. Phil – June 11, 2014

Stirring up trouble again, Phil?

Come on, bud! Why you gotta be all sour grapes?

Why you gotta be a “hata”? :-)

87. Julius Caesar - June 11, 2014

Ho.Lee.Shit. This looks phenomenal.

88. Cygnus-X1 - June 11, 2014

But, seriously…

Alec Peters, I’m definitely excited to see the whole thing.

Like someone else just mentioned, I’ve just watched this trailer half a dozen times.

I’d be great to know a bit about how you envision Prelude to Axanar vis-a-vis the full-length Battle of Axanar which you’re looking to film this Autumn.

I see in the trailer that you set up the theme of the good guys seeking to keep their cultural values intact while fighting the bad guys. I’d like to see a bit more on that and/or on whatever other themes or motifs might be involved in the Prelude or eventually in the full-length feature.

I found the Richard Hatch bits especially compelling and am excited to see more of him. And it’d be great to see a bit of Michael Hogan’s role in the longer trailer, too!

The trailer is very slick, but I would caution you to keep in mind what your strengths are as an indie production. There’s already an abundant supply of big-budget, slick CGI Trek being put out, and many of us find it less than satisfying. Your CGI and production values are going to support your story just fine, but I think you’d do well to play more to your strengths in the trailers. We’re getting plenty of ~sizzle~ from the BR movies. What we’re starving for is steak!

Looking forward to the next release!

89. Spock's Bangs - June 11, 2014

#10: So in other words, you know NOTHING about budgets, Hollywood salaries, special effects costs, etc. Got it.

I know they brought in a LOT more $$ than they asked for. They were prepared to do it for MUCH less.. Armed with an excellent fan CGI artist and a band of willing, not-so-in demand actors who are fan favorte convention regulars and $100 k, all we have to show is a well polished sizzle reel. That’s a term used to describe a ” proof of concept” project…but being in the industry, you knew that didn’t you. :) All they got for their buck is a 20 minute short. It will be very interesting to see how much they will say they need for the full blown movie.

90. Roger - June 11, 2014

Awesome. Simply AWESOME.

91. Jared - June 11, 2014

After seeing this, I’m very excited about Prelude to Axanar. If this is just a taste of the good things to come, then the full-length feature is going to absolutely fantastic later this year.

92. somethoughts - June 11, 2014

awesome, very nicely done.

93. Alec Peters - June 11, 2014

#89 @ Spock’s Bangs

We raised $ 101,000. Now roughly 20 % of that goes to fees and Perks, leaving us with about $ 80,000. With me? Because you clearly don’t understand that.

The budget for “Prelude” was originally $ 20,000, which would have produced a fan film. We spent $ 70,000 and produced a professional quality 20-25 minute short film. Almost all professionals in front of and behind the camera, professional studio, two Red cameras, full catering (a necessity with a pro crew). There was absolutely nothing we did that was similar to the ways fan films do things. If you think that is a waste of money, well, you didn’t fund us and clearly you have no clue as to what making movies in Hollywood costs.

Your comment: “all we have to show is a well polished sizzle reel. ” shows me how ignorant you are. You do realize that you release a trailer BEFORE you release the film right? If you answer yes, then you are admitting your comment was ignorant trolling. Because all you do is wait 5 weeks and see the whole short, which you will see thanks to other good people’s faith is us. Then you will understand what the $ 80,000 went for.

94. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJszxnJydA

THIS /\ is a great trailer.

Sorry. the “Prelude to Axanar” trailer does NOT come close to this.

JJ Created a great movie, this is another fan short.

95. northstar - June 12, 2014

Are you kidding me? You are comparing a 140+ million production to a 70k production? That´s one half percent of the budget, in case you´re math isn´t that good. You probably wouldn´t even get the catering on a JJ trek movie for that.

I liked the first JJ movie as well, and that JJ trailer is the best trek trailer ever done, so of course they can´t beat that.

Jeez , some people…

96. dswynne - June 12, 2014

@94 (northstar): Unfortunately, there will always be haters who, rather than encourage fan productions, feel the need to poo-poo fan-based productions as a demonstration of their need to “suck up” to their idols. Quite frankly, it makes me wonder if these people are fans of the franchise or not.

97. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

94. northstar

Don’t leave out the talent when you give your fiscal view of my opinion, northstar.

98. Michael Hall - June 12, 2014

Star Trek: Enterprise meets “Band of Brothers” by way of the rebooted Battlestar Galactica. That’s not meant as snark–it’s a perfectly serviceable concept, and if that show had been as stylistically innovative and beautifully produced as this one seems to be, it might still be running today.

Roddenberry always said that someday someone would come along and produce a Trek superior to his own efforts, but who would’ve thought it might end up being the fans themselves? Wonder what he would think of his little space opera now, at age fifty? Amazing.

99. Michael Hall - June 12, 2014

@ 93–

Yeah, that’s one helluva trailer, without a doubt. Too bad the finished product didn’t live up to it.

100. Tpr - June 12, 2014

@TrekMadeMeWonder no doubt trek 2009 was a great reinvention and revitalization of the franchise…how much did it cost? Prelude to Axanar is going cost ~100K. Apples say hello to your MUCH less expensive cousin the orange.

I am very glad I jumped on this kickstarter…this is the best fanfilm of Trek I have seen (and there have been some great ones). I for one am very interested in this period of Trek lore and have a copy of the “four years war” from the FASA days. Keep up the GREAT work Mr .Peters!

101. Keachick (Rose) - June 12, 2014

#95 – Nobody is sucking up to anyone. TrekMadeMeWonder is just saying that he prefers one trailer over another.

There is no rule that says that any fan has to “suck up” to other fans who chose to make their own productions and wish to be idolized for what they do, no matter what.

Which *franchise* are you referring to? The actual one that belongs to Paramount/CBS and actually constitutes what the Star Trek franchise is or the one that certain fans think the franchise should be about, irrespective of what others may feel/prefer?

I do not have a problem with fan based productions per se. I do have a problem with the continual arrogance and rudeness of some shown towards those who may actually prefer what the actual owners of the franchise have shown them.

You don’t see or hear of actors, directors, producers insulting people because they chose not to see their films or once seen, do not like what they have seen, even if, at times, the criticisms can be incredibly thoughtless, personal and cruel.

I really have to wonder just who are being the real cheesedicks here.

102. Chris Roberts - June 12, 2014

I’m glad reports of the Prime Universe’s demise have been greatly exaggerated.

103. Keachick (Rose) - June 12, 2014

Oh yeah…the exception that proves the rule – the writer, who shall not be named telling a provocative and rude poster, who shall not be named, to do some rude/bad words, which shall not be written, on a subject matter and question which shall not be named, but which I was able to answer…

Certainly not the norm!

104. ST:EXP - June 12, 2014

I’ve never seen such overwhelmingly positive comments on this specific website for a “fan-film”. Looks like this is going to be an astoundingly amazing project.

105. Hat Rick - June 12, 2014

The other thing that gets me is that some people don’t seem to realize that the $80K Kirkstarter dough appears to have paid for not only the trailer, but a short film of twenty minutes’ length. Already. If I’m not mistaken, that is.

That’s a helluva bargain for this kind of quality. And we’ll see more of it in the form of a longer trailer soon.

The thing with Hollywood — and I’m not the first to say this, but it’s my opinion — is that if someone gives you a million, you’d be stupid not to find some way of spending it (or more)– even if it’s possible you could do the same thing at a fraction of the cost.. Hollywood is no different from any other industry; money finds its own level. Everyone loves the greenback, and the more the merrier.

But to do this kind of thing on a budget of this kind — pocket change, by the lights of today’s megablockbusters — is something of a wonder.

I really hope this effort takes off. Following its progress and its eventual fruition would be a pretty good reason not to hit the snooze button quite so many times when the alarm goes off in the morning.

P.S.: I am not connected with this production in any way, except as a fan of Star Trek.

106. Hat Rick - June 12, 2014

^^ Kickstarter, not “Kirkstarter”. I assure you that the mistake was unintentional.

107. Tpr - June 12, 2014

@100 I get the impression that this project is trying get CBS’s attention. Wouldn’t a TV show of the “Four years war” be kinda awesome…it could show the Federations struggle to stay true to it’s roots and the price it paid for that. Also…space battles!

108. Michael Hall - June 12, 2014

“Which *franchise* are you referring to? The actual one that belongs to Paramount/CBS and actually constitutes what the Star Trek franchise is or the one that certain fans think the franchise should be about, irrespective of what others may feel/prefer?”

Um, value judgements about “what actually constitutes what the Star Trek franchise is” can only be decided in the hearts and imaginations of each individual fan, entirely irrespective of the issue of corporate ownership. As I’ve stated elsewhere, my personal ST universe can gladly make room for something like Jim Cawley’s “World Enough and Time,” while I’d just as soon forget about the Roddenberry-produced “And the Children Shall Lead”. And while I can’t speak for the dead, if Gene was around I’d bet good money that he would agree.

109. President Archer - June 12, 2014

This might in fact be intresting as an TV Adaption. A Sci-Fi Docu Drama Show set in Star Trek. Not only will it feel more authentic then any other TV Star Trek show before this one but also will it be able reach new audiences out there while keeping old canonists happy.

There is just one little critic. As much as love the action oriented camera style for the space combat and the motion taking place. Instead of pure CG Ship Battles I had prefered a hybrid CG including real Modell Effects Version. Pure CG always suffers from a little much arficial look. Of course it can do better, but that would require more budget and render time while a hybrid version would need more real camera and model work to be done while including the efford for vfx. But in the end that efford would pay out.

110. Keachick (Rose) - June 12, 2014

#107 Michael Hall – This is the comment I was referring to – notably the final sentence
“@94 (northstar): Unfortunately, there will always be haters who, rather than encourage fan productions, feel the need to poo-poo fan-based productions as a demonstration of their need to “suck up” to their idols. Quite frankly, it makes me wonder if these people are fans of the franchise or not.”

I think it is clear what is meant here and which required challenging.

111. Michael Hall - June 12, 2014

Well, on that we agree, at least. No one should be made to feel less of a fan, or human being, for liking what they like.

112. Drew M - June 12, 2014

Alec,

The trailer is powerful and unique. Thank you for putting together this new project!

People on here who bad mouth about AXANAR, let it go through one ear and out the other. I and many others believe in your work.

Thank you again!

Warm Regards,
Drew

113. Gary 8.5 - June 12, 2014

I wish them luck , But I prefer the actual Paramount Film Franchise.

114. Melllvar - June 12, 2014

This looks flipn brilliant. Above and beyond anything I’ve seen since In a mirror, darkly… and more relevant due to the fact that it’s set in what every trekkie would stand behind as the TRUE Star Trek timeline.

The new movies are entertaining but I mean come on, there’s just no canon or believable storyline anymore!!

115. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

“fans of the franchise or not.”

A fan would know that a Klingon Battle Cruiser would not shoot diruptors from its deflector dish – even if it’s STTMP! Klingon Battle Cruiser typically use disruptors from the rear of the ship, the engineering section of the vessel. And any Trek fan would expect a disruptors, or photon torpedos, to have the tremendous destructive potential of a weapon created 300 years in the future, and not act like it has the destructive force of a cannon ball from 300 years in the past. Seriously you should review what an archaic atomic bomb could do – 50 years ago?!

Sorry, but time and again, these Treks, yes, the movies and new productions, completely gloss over the tremendous forces that would have to be unleashed by the use of a single photon torpedo or future space based weapon. Not to mention the S-l-o-w movement of the weapon effects. Seriously, if I see a photon torpedo shoot out of another starship as less than 100 MPH I will scream!!!

Does not any still one appreciate Star Trek’s original respect for the science of the show?! I always thought they at least made an attempt to show the awesome power involved – even with their episodic shoestring budget. Eh, northstar?

To make that an opening shot of a “fan made” tribute to a episode that is 50 years old, strikes me as funny that they are not respecting the science of Star Trek, as well as I think they should be.

By the way (I had typed this all out a bit better earlier, but a windows update stool my thunder) I think we can ALL agree that Paramont had better get in gear and make a few more Treks.

How about an announcement of a new series. Seriously what would that take? Is there not any Paramont or CBS exec that is willing to take a stand and shake these walls? Stand up for Trek and let your top brass there know that they are missing the boat with Trek’s popularity! It’s a gold mine! You should be mining IT, like a time traveling Romulan, for Kirk’s sake!!!

Seriously, Disney is setting the bar, now?

There is one thing this production has in common with Paramont. Sadly, neither is making money from their efforts with Trek this year.

From the heart. If you make good Trek, with respect to the characters, AND the engineering and science of the show, you will easily make a great profit from your efforts. But importantly, and yes it takes a little effort, you must get the science correct.

116. Michael Hall - June 12, 2014

Seriously, if I see a photon torpedo shoot out of another starship as less than 100 MPH I will scream!!!”

Seriously, I’d pay good money to see that. :-)

Forest, meet tree.

117. TrekmadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

I think you already have. STVI. Trek cannonballs at their best. I think they showed a torpedo shooting though many decks of the E, and come out the other side!

118. northstar - June 12, 2014

#112 Seriously, if I see a photon torpedo shoot out of another starship as less than 100 MPH I will scream!!

I guess the last 13 trek movies must have been very painful for you…

And no, science is not the first thing they have to get correct – I agree it would be nice if they got it right, but then you would have no explosions, no sound in space, no warpdrive, no nothing…. It´s called entertainment, so story and characters are what matters.

119. Tpr - June 12, 2014

@trekmademewonder
“A fan would know that a Klingon Battle Cruiser would not shoot diruptors from its deflector dish – even if it’s STTMP! Klingon Battle Cruiser typically use disruptors from the rear of the ship, the engineering section of the vessel. And any Trek fan would expect a disruptors, or photon torpedos, to have the tremendous destructive potential of a weapon created 300 years in the future, and not act like it has the destructive force of a cannon ball from 300 years in the past. Seriously you should review what an archaic atomic bomb could do – 50 years ago?!”

I can’t tell if you are joking or not…really the placement of the disruptor beam means this is a bad production?
using Star trek logic I will say that this is a D5 cruiser and had weapon defects that were fixed on later ships…or something technobabble technobabble technobabble something…

120. TrrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

/\ /\ /\ THIS! (Forest, meets the tree)

I knew I should have kept that simple @112.

Do you think a future space battle, using Trek tech, would take place with ships squaring off a couple hundred meters from each other – time and again?

How can you depict a future interstellar war using weapons with yields that are akin to 17th century cannonballs! Laughable. Every time.

TOS got it right the 1st season. And I loved it.

121. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

Tpr, you quote me and then you don’t even read what I said?

I just think it’s pretty foolish to show a photon torpedo exploding like a cannonball. If you are into that, then I can’t say much more. I think it sucks.

I thought it sucked in all of the movies and it shows that after TOS, there just was not an interest in the Science portion of the fiction.

Perhaps that is where an entirely new production is needed these day.
Trek is on par with Star Wars when it comes to its juvenile use of science.

If anyone has not claimed it already. I want to create a show called, “Science Trek.” So there will be no excuse for the poor use of technology in the any of the storylines.

122. James Cawley - June 12, 2014

“And yes, a fan film can do it for a lot less. But we aren’t a fan film.”

I will correct you Alec, You may have a group of pro’s working on the project, but those pro’s are definitely fan’s of Star Trek and your production is not currently being made by CBS, so Welcome to the fold, You ARE a fan-film.

123. Hat Rick - June 12, 2014

Let’s not get into fighting amongst ourselves. Please.

Praise for one is not disparagement of any other.

124. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

AXANAR = AWESOME!!! =D

THIS is REAL Star Trek by people who know and love REAL Star Trek! =)

GIVE ME MORE!!! =D THANK YOU!!! =D

Yes, A VERY PROFESSIONAL “fan film”… ;-)

125. Phil - June 12, 2014

@123. To late. See 124.

126. Mike Barnett - June 12, 2014

All I know is that the fan films are filling a HUGE void. A theatrical motion picture every 3 to 4 years isn’t enough for me. So, bring on the fan-films!

127. Hat Rick - June 12, 2014

@ 125, Phil, hope springs eternal. It’s a pretty big universe and there is plenty for all to play in it. I admire all fan efforts and try to be positive about each. Each has its strengths, much as we all do as individuals. If only all of us could remember that.

128. Oscar - June 12, 2014

Paramount should spend money in this project, better than the next Orci gijoe trek thing…

129. Hat Rick - June 12, 2014

Meanwhile, Back at the Ranch….

I just cannot resist. I know what I just said, but I just can’t pass this up.

It’s the old ST versus SW thing.

I know that JJ has directorially “moved on” to SW. And part of that knowledge doesn’t fill me with sunshine and roses. And part of that also makes me say, “Let it go.”

But for Trek fans like me, I feel that there’s a certain impetus toward ST over SW that wouldn’t make it perfectly okay for me to run over to the “other franchise.” Maybe it’s because of articles like this:

http://www.cnet.com/news/americans-think-star-trek-is-the-future-not-star-wars-study-says/

And believe you me, while I had nothing to do with the study, I wouldn’t mind at all if I had done it. Because Star Trek is … what it is.

The official ST productions have some stiff competition for attention. I hope that somewhere, out there in Paramount-land, someone is paying it as well.

Engage.

130. Bird of Prey - June 12, 2014

Wow! Just wow!!
Also, it’s a quite interesting and novel idea to set it up as an in-universe history documentation!

131. Silvereyes - June 12, 2014

Wow. Unbelievable! Fan film? Did I read that right? The effects are superb, the acting is first class and the storyline enticing… Shouln’t this be ST 3? Hope Bob Orci is taking notes…

132. Oscar - June 12, 2014

Stop ultra conservative star trek blockbusters…
TREKVOLUTION NOW…

133. Lewis Kilgo - June 12, 2014

98. Michael Hall

“Roddenberry always said that someday someone would come along and produce a Trek superior to his own efforts, but who would’ve thought it might end up being the fans themselves? Wonder what he would think of his little space opera now, at age fifty? ”

He might wonder why the children are always fighting. XD

134. Elias Javalis - June 12, 2014

Very Impressive Work, cant wait!

135. star trackie - June 12, 2014

Wow. A lot of people tripping over their tongues for what is nothing more than some very simple set pieces…probably green screen… with good actors padded with LOTS and LOTS…and LOTS of CGI. Granted all these actors are regulars on the convention circuit, and maybe fans feel some sort of kinship with them for that reason, but they are a talented bunch. And if the other fan films are lacking, it’s usually in the acting department.
All this stunt casting comes off as gimmicky, but that’s better than being bad. I’m on the fence, we just haven’t really seen enough. This is just a bunch of pretty CGI at the moment. I hope they put some of that big money into good writing. They have the good actors and the eye candy. But the story…how well it is written will tell the tale.

136. KKP - June 12, 2014

This is a really amazing production. Huge accolades and thanks to the folks working so hard on it. Especially for fans of the TOS era, this is a remarkable visualization, and the serious, reflective tone of the narrative, more military history than shoot-em-up action adventure, feels really authentic and appropriate. Can’t wait to see the whole thing (and, hopefully, more great stuff from this team)!

137. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

Populist Star Trek standing up to the corporate LIE of nu-trek!! =D

138. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

…I only need to hear Tony Todd’s POWERFUL oratory to know there’s a great story coming! =D

139. Impending Doom - June 12, 2014

There’s too much of the craptastic JJ Abrams influence in this for my taste. The CGI is seems top-notch though. I’m curious who will be playing Garth of Izar. I am happy for fan-productions in all their forms though. These are what is keeping the spirit of real Star Trek alive in the 21st century.

140. Silvereyes - June 12, 2014

#137 Been reading your crap for too long. Can’t hold back anymore. You’re an idiot.

141. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

…if u can’t hold it back… please, pray tell… WHY am i supposedly an idiot?

or is it just a word, so lightly thrown…?

142. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

judging a person does not define who they are… it defines who YOU are.

143. Silvereyes - June 12, 2014

142 Herbert

I agree that judging you from maybe 50 posts I’ve read from you is unfair. Let me rephrase. Your posts are poselytic, repetitive and propagandist. You don’t like newtrek, we get it. Move on. Your incessant use of emoticons is annoying. So, in conclusion, you may very well be a nice, intelligent and all around good person, but your posts are idiotic.

144. Silvereyes - June 12, 2014

142… and I don’t need your help on how or what to think. Let people think what they want, and it’s their knowledge, experience, sensibilities and intellect that will influence their thoughts, not a preacher like you. Clear enough?

145. Buzz Cagney - June 12, 2014

#131 oh he will be, you can be sure of that.

146. Harry Ballz - June 12, 2014

@72 “What’s a cheesedick?” Keachick

Keachick, that’s what a guy suffers from after having carnal relations with a woman who has a yeast infection.

147. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

146. Harry Ballz

T M I, Harry.

I appreciate knowledge, But you should have stopped @ 1.

148. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

Silvereyes: thanks for clarifying your OPINION ;-)

as i have stated before: I point the info out to you… I DO NOT tell u what to think of it…

FREE WILL IS PARAMOUNT. =)

149. Nathan - June 12, 2014

That was awesome. I wasn’t expecting that. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed most of the fanfilms I’ve seen, but this looks to be a on a completely different level. Consider me impressed.

150. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

This short seems to be an interview session in some Ready Room with Earth as a backdrop. Seems like most of this Short will be flashbacks.

That’s probably why the timing seems off to me. There will probably be a a good bit of interviews, and then a lot of CGI space shots.

Should be interesting. I eagerly await the full presentation.

151. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

Ahhh. Another great trailer. If you exclude the final 15 secs. They should have saved that for the Feature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIxMMv_LD5Q

Only 300 views. Take a look!

152. jb42682 - June 12, 2014

Very impressive with the exception of the J.J style ships. Yuck!

153. Keachick (Rose) - June 12, 2014

#146 – And just when I thought that a cheesedick was most likely a male appendage that was coated in cheese by a someone who then licked it off…:)

154. Phil - June 12, 2014

@151. So much for populist Trek. Pay for play is a much better description.

155. Phil - June 12, 2014

Rose, you’d appreciate this – one of the movie cable channels here was doing a segment on makeup for STID. Turns out the tails on the kitty ladies were actual appendages that apparently went way above and beyond the call of duty in creeping Mr. Pine out. Kinda amusing that he was reacting to them like a lot of people react to snakes or spiders…

156. Ahmed - June 12, 2014

@154. Phil

When is the next BR Trek movie coming out ?

157. Phil - June 12, 2014

@156. When it’s ready.

158. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

RE: “So much for populist Trek.”

..how ’bout Non-corporate trek? no? just a hater…? ;-)

(actually, “the people” have a FEW dollars to speak with… a little bit of cash from everybody adds up!) (pretty much the definition of a popular movement…) ;-)

159. Ahmed - June 12, 2014

@157. Phil

“When it’s ready.”

lol, right.

I think that we got like 2 years before the next BR masterpiece is out, perhaps then you should wait it out on the BR/Orci threads & leave this fanfilm thread since they are clearly beneath you!

160. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

Ahmed “When is the next BR Trek movie coming out ?”

Phil “When it’s ready.” (i don’t get sarcasm) (d’uh) =P

161. Marja - June 12, 2014

Alec Peters,

I really really hope that you will use more persons of color in several roles. I loved seeing Tony Todd as the Admiral speaking for Starfleet and the Federation’s values!

I hope that your Starfleet will reflect the probable population of Earth [Asians, South Asians/Indians, Africans and many more — and Federation member societies [Andorians, Vulcans, Tellarites, and so on] — because one of the most notable lacks in most fan films is persons of color/women in positions of power [again I loved seeing the female captain!].

If I may be so bold [and I've been pretty durned bold here], I hope you will seek to cast more POC and women who have found too little work in Hollywood of late but are popular with audiences.

Godspeed “Axanar”!

162. Phil - June 12, 2014

@159. I’m pretty much leaving this thread alone. Let’s just say the running commentary from the keepers of true fandom continues to be an amusing read, and leave it at that.

163. Marja - June 12, 2014

99 Michael Hall, Agreed. I think maybe TMMW was making a point about the depiction of personalities; at least that was something I perceived in the “Axanar” trailer. The leaders are speaking of their regrets about their actions in the past [Amb. Soval] or reminiscing about the heroism of those who were lost [Captain Garth]. In the sense of the people portrayed, it’s more a meditative than Action! trailer.

164. Marja - June 12, 2014

114 Mellvar, When, oh when, will fans understand that “canon” CHANGED the minute Narada crossed into another universe?

165. Marja - June 12, 2014

115 TMMW, apparently it’s Les Moonves, head of CBS, who stands in the way of such. He doesn’t understand or like science fiction.

166. pafan - June 12, 2014

I assume we will see the brand new NCC-1701? Will be interesting to see what take on her design will be used.

167. Alec Peters - June 12, 2014

#135 @star trackle. Gimmicky? It is called casting. I am sure you also complain when the actors are weak in fan films.

168. Alec Peters - June 12, 2014

# 161 @Marja As to diversity, absolutely. You see it in our trailer. Two white men, a black man, a white woman and a Vulcan.

When we get to Axanar, the bridge crew of the USS Ares (Garth’s ship) has Garth, a Japanese 1st officer, a female tactical officer, a black male pilot, and two positions that have not been set. Also, there is a female intelligence officer and a Russian Chief Engineer.

As to Starfleet, at this point the ships are still segregated, and you WILL see an all Andorian ship. :-)

And Axanar takes place in the Primer timeline, meaning TOS. Everything that happened up till the Narada entered the the timeline with the Kelvin is Canon in both universes. The entrance of the Narada creates the alternate universe.

Alec

169. THX-1138 - June 12, 2014

I am glad that this takes place in the Prime Universe. I’m not a fan of some of the ship designs, but I found that they were the least of my dislikes in JJ’s films. I just have never been able to get behind The AU setting (save your breath, I aint changing my mind about that).

Having said that, I am really looking forward to seeing the Garth of Izar story told. In the Prime Universe. On this very professional looking level with what appears to be a lot of talent.

Fingers crossed that April’s Enterprise bears more than a passing resemblance to the TOS E. I don’t mind jazzing up the design a tad with more detail that an old (and much beloved) plywood and plastic filming model from the 60’s. But I would really love to see that classic silhouette once more. An old fan can always wish, no? And I don’t hate the JJprise, I just really, really love the classic E.

170. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

No. TMMW is not Moonves. LOL. Very amusing. And yes. I like and respect good science fiction. When I see it.

Look. This AM is the 1st time I heard of “Prelude to Axanar.”
And as a Trek fan, I actually did not even rememeber its significance. But when I first watched the trailer above, I was a bit dismayed that this level of quality went into a “fan film” when it could have achieved so much more as a standalone sci-fi production. That is why I had some additional disapointment with this Trek short. The renderings and FX are beautiful, the acting looks top notch, but what it comes down to, is that this production looks so good, that I am a bit pissed that with all the talent and cash, its just another Trek fan film, when it could have been so much more than just another Trek fan film.

Yes, Marja. I may not appreciate the all the effort that went into this production, but that is only becuase I can appreciate that these same people who worked so hard on this could have made something considerably more.

In effect, I am cheering on more science fiction. I just think this may be something of a needless exercise in Trek fiction, when it could have been true original science fiction – that you could make a buck on – and then make more!

Like Gene and company did back in the day!

171. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

Right on, THX.

172. Alec Peters - June 12, 2014

# 169 @THX1138

The TOS Enterprise is what you will see in space dock. We won’t be changing it. This is all Prime timeline.

# 170 @TrekMadeMeWonder

I suggest you go to a non-Star Trek forum then. Here we make Star Trek. Your desires about where our efforts go are irrelevant. And this is not “Just another Trek fan film.” If you haven’t figured that out yet, you haven’t been paying attention.

173. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 12, 2014

172. Alec Peters –

Don’t worry about me Alec, I’m a small fry.

Thanks for the tip. I will keep reading…

174. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

Hi Alec! Great to see you here!

I LOVE what I see so far, and I’m behind you all the way! =D

…can’t wait to see what you come up with next!

you’ve got me STOKED!! =D

175. Disinvited - June 12, 2014

#129. Hat Rick – June 12, 2014

Thanks for the link I was amused by it.

However, in the interest of full disclosure it has to be noted that CNET is owned by CBS which owns STAR TREK. A little bit of skepticism in regards to considering the article as being totally unbiased in its interpretation of what the survey suggests is not uncalled for.

176. dswynne - June 12, 2014

@101 (Keachick): Imagine yourself going to a museum, and then you see a fine piece of art that you not only appreciate, but decide to try your hand at emulating. So, you practice. And, you practice. You slowly are able to copy the style of the piece, but you decided to add your spin to it, in order to make your art your own. And, over time, you get good enough not to be embarrassed by your own efforts. In fact, you feel confident enough to see how others will receive them. After all, you love what you do, as a homage to the very thing that inspired you, so why not show others of your work?

And then someone comes along, and p*sses all over your efforts, saying that your work is not as good as the professional work, and that you shouldn’t even try to emulate what inspired you.

“There, there. Have a cookie.”

That’s what I read when I read disrepectful comments from certain naysayers, and why I question their love of the franchise. Sure, you can say that a fan film is not the result of a profession production, but these films are the fans way of showing their appreciation for the very thing that inspired their fan productions. Sure, some filmsare better than others. In fact, some fans have their preferred production studios, while other fans prefer some themes over others. I can respect that. What don’t respect are those so-called “fans” who poo-poo another fans efforts in realizing their dreams of putting out a Star Trek fan film. They conveniently ignore the time, money and effort put into these things. And when I say “suck up” (proverbially speaking), I’m talking about this human tendency to put down someone as a demonstration that they are “true” fans of Star Trek. If such people don’t like fan films, then they should simply ignore what other fans do, rather than belittle the efforts of these fan film producers.

For me, what makes “Star Trek” ‘Trek are the ideas that an episode, movie, novel, comic, etc. is able to convey, based upon the ideas that Gene Roddenberry and company wanted to explore. Very few franchises are able to do this, and if a fan film can pull it off, much love. If not, good effort, since I know that the producers of the fan films have their hearts in the right place.

177. Alec Peters - June 12, 2014

#174 @I am not Herbert

Thank you. Good to be here. I have been amply forewarned by just about everyone about the wild jungles of the TrekMovie forums!

I think I am always amazed at the hatred of the JJ films. I happened to like Star Trek 2009 (despite its many flaws) because it gave Star Trek a new lease on life. But STID was just a poorly written mess. (So now we don’t need Starfleet as we can simply transport anywhere in the the galaxy, and we can live forever thanks to Khans’s amazing super-blood).

That being said, the Kelvin is canon in both the Prime and JJ universes and the Starfleet ships we see when at the Space Station in 09 are all reasonable enough predecessors to the TOS Enterprise. So we took them, shrunk them from their absurd gigantic sizes and swapped out nacelles. Since we have never seen ships 20 years older than the Connie, we used the best thing we had as the basis.

We are hard core Star Trek fans. You can disagree with our approach, but you can’t out geek us. I for one own every Star Trek tech manual ever printed and am all about the tech. I think we scored.

Alec

178. Keachick (Rose) - June 12, 2014

#176 – “And when I say “suck up” (proverbially speaking), I’m talking about this human tendency to put down someone as a demonstration that they are “true” fans of Star Trek.”

I believe this was sparked a comment made by TMMW #94. While northstar made a valid point about the obvious differences between the two trailers and noting that TMMW was being unfair, you, Dswynne, got nasty and disrespectful. You are the one making the reference to who the “true” fans are, not TMMW. If anyone is “sucking up”, it is you.

It seems that Alec Peters is rudely telling TMMW to go to another board because he cannot handle the notion of someone calling his effort “just another Trek fan film” because he thinks it is so much more than that. Talk about up himself! This is what I mean by my post #101.

Well, newsflash, Alec Peters – it is just another Trek fan film, just as Star Trek 3 is just another Trek movie being made by the film franchise owners.

Get over yourselves!

179. Jonboc - June 12, 2014

#172. “. And this is not “Just another Trek fan film.” If you haven’t figured that out yet, you haven’t been paying attention.”

I don’t believe it’s anything at this point but a trailer for a prelude to a film that has yet to be made. I will reserve all judgement until I’ve seen the finished feature film. I do, however, look forward to spending more time in this new take on the Trek universe, I hope it can live up to it’s potential.

180. Hat Rick - June 12, 2014

My friends, if we want to change the world, let alone the universe, let us start with ourselves.

There is no need for nastiness or backbiting. There is no need for passive-aggression. We all believe in the improvement of humanity through something very close to Gene Roddenberry’s vision.

Let us move the entire cosmos toward peace and harmony.

And let it start with each of us.

What would be wrong with that?

181. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

177. Alec Peters – you are speaking my language! =)

I’m sure there is a huge audience / market dying to see Axanar!

(they just don’t know it yet…) ;-)

I wish you and crew all the success you deserve! Long Live Star Trek! =D

182. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

Hat Rick makes a lot of sense… ;-)

183. I am not Herbert - June 12, 2014

oh, and thanks for the background on the choice of ships / nacelles! ;-)

…i think the Kelvin is my favorite thing from nu-trek!

Hard-core Star Trek geeks with tech manuals! where can i join?!! =D

184. Cygnus-X1 - June 12, 2014

168. Alec Peters – June 12, 2014

And Axanar takes place in the Primer timeline, meaning TOS. Everything that happened up till the Narada entered the the timeline with the Kelvin is Canon in both universes. The entrance of the Narada creates the alternate universe.

177. Alec Peters – June 12, 2014

That being said, the Kelvin is canon in both the Prime and JJ universes and the Starfleet ships we see when at the Space Station in 09 are all reasonable enough predecessors to the TOS Enterprise.

OK, I gotta mention this now since you’ve said it twice.

I’m not meaning to go off on a tangent here, but I think it’s important to point out for the benefit of all future Trek writers that the events occurring in the ST09 Alt Universe prior to the Narada entering it aren’t necessarily canon in the Prime Universe. They only need be canon if a given writer decides that he likes them and therefore wants to canonize them.

There’s actually nothing in ST09 that defines the Alt Universe as being exactly the same as the Prime Universe prior to the Narada incursion.

The whole alternate-universe/time-travel device in ST09—the way that it is presented in the movie—is basically a mish-mash of several time-travel fictional devices and real-world cosmological models. There’s absolutely no reason, given the events in the movie, that the black hole didn’t lead to a very similar but not exactly similar alternate universe, like a wormhole between existing universes in a given multiverse model. In fact, given current cosmological research and evidence, this would be the most plausible interpretation.

There are problems with trying to conform the events of the movie strictly to the MWI, and this interpretation isn’t even implied by the movie.

It is possible that the Alt Universe prior to Narada entrance was exactly the same as the Prime Universe, but it’s also possible that the Alt Universe was merely very similar to the Prime Universe. In any infinite multiverse model, a set of universes having any and every degree of similarity to each other might exist, and infinitely many of them at that. There’s nothing in ST09 that defines, implies or even suggests that the Alt Universe has an exact, certain composition vis-a-vis the Prime Universe.

The point being, if you or any other writer should wish to write about events in the Prime Universe which mirror events in the ST09 Alt Universe before Narada, you’d not necessarily be in violation of canon. And, as I remember Orci remarking during pre-production of ST09, the main reason that they decided to set the movie in an Alternate Universe was to free themselves of obligations to canon. And this works both ways. They did whatever they wanted in their Alt Universe, and nobody is obligated to conform to what they did in the Prime Universe.

This site does a pretty good job of itemizing all of the possible cosmological interpretations of the whole time-travel, alternate-universe device in ST09:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/abramsverse_continuity.htm

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/treknology/timetravel-trekxi.htm

Here’s a brief excerpt describing one possible interpretation, given the events in the movie, and it’s the interpretation that makes the most sense to me in terms of being based on real-world cosmology:

…The transition through the black hole may have involved some quantum uncertainty effect. This uncertainty may have thrown the Narada into a perhaps already existing parallel universe, and Spock, by a huge coincidence, into the very same universe. [or, not by huge coincidence, if the black hole were a worm hole between two universes.] Prior to Nero’s massive incursions, this parallel universe must have been close enough to the Prime Universe that he and his crew were not aware of the already existing possible difference and thought they had “only” traveled back in time. It may have been somewhat different though….

185. Cygnus-X1 - June 12, 2014

P.S. I shouldn’t have said that the site itemizes all of the possibilities, but it does a good job at showing many interpretations that are valid given what’s in the movie. And these interpretations have differing implications upon whether or not the pre-Narada events of ST09 would be regarded as canon.

186. Trekboi - June 12, 2014

I’m sick of this misuse of Star Trek.
The production values look great & Professional & it might be set in the Prime Universe but it IS NOT STAR TREK

STAR TREK IS NOT ABOUT WAR!

I know since 911 American Culture is obsessed with war & paranoia & terrorism (look at the last 3 “Star Trek” films which were all about Vengeful Villains/terrorists)

Star Trek is about exploration & Humanity
Roddenberry never would have wanted it to be a military series about war.

Ughhh Vile.

187. Trekboi - June 12, 2014

I can understand a studio based production being war based series to please the general public (the stupid people) but FAN Films should be Pure Trek- for Trek films not this War Propaganda-Trek

I’m with “The Keeper” on this.

” June 11, 2014

What a refreshing surprise, another fan made war driven Star Trek film..just what we needed.
How many of these are there now? Not counting the Star Trek Online war games?
And fans call JJ’s Trek his Star Wars test reels…LOL

At least there’s continuity in thinking even when the true fans say there isn’t.

Real Star Trek is dead.
We will not see the likes of it ever again. The down fall started with TNG and is completed here amoung the fans.”

188. Trekboi - June 12, 2014

And all the talk about keeping true to star Trek’s ideals in the trailer are just there to try & shut the real star trek fans up when really its all about War & who has the biggest “gun”

So sad to see star Trek slowly rapped to death.

189. Lomax - June 13, 2014

Trekboi:

Agree with your posts 100%.

190. Hat Rick - June 13, 2014

Thanks, I am not Herbert.

@ 184, Cygnus-X1, regarding quantum realities:

I generally agree that the pre-Narada universe in JJTrek is not necessarily the same as the “Prime Universe” established by Gene Roddenberry (such as it is). Whether it, or any universe, is “canon” is a literary construct in some sense. Onto a related matter….

While there are conjectures regarding the nature of multiple universes and whether they exist, it’s hard to know whether the “many worlds” theory of reality is actually correct or whether time travel of any kind is inherent impossible. At this point, I am uncertain as to whether there is a way, even in theory, for time travel to occur given even the broadest and most expansive possibilities offered in the light of the known laws of physics. This would involve not only the laws of general relativity but also that of quantum physics. I used to be more certain that science cannot rule out time travel, but my certainty has eroded from what I’ve read.

It’s not that time dilation is at issue; I know that time dilation is taken to be fact because it’s be proved using atomic clocks, for example. I also believe that strange, faster-than-light actions at a distance, not capable of information conveyance, seems to have been observed. Further, I believe that travel at appropriate velocities through the use of an extremely dense cylinder on the order of light-years in length could possibly result in some form of what we would consider “time travel.”

There are discussions concerning whether there is an inherent “cosmic censorship” principle relating to time travel, or whether the universe has a physical law prohibiting violation of causality, and whether this is congruent with assumptions concerning multiple universes and their possibility. As well, it is possible, I suppose, that if time travel is impossible, it is impossible only due to the restrictions in effect in our particular universe. In much the same way, I suppose it is possible that if the many-universes model of physics is incorrect, it might be incorrect only in our universe — although this seems to be a philosophic paradox, or at least a form of begging the question.

The issue of time travel and multiple universes has become, if anything, more opaque over the years for me. I understand that conceits behind time travel stories (the “Back to the Future” model, the multiple timelines model, etc.). But this is not a point of clarity for me, and I’m not sure it is one for anyone else, scientist or not.

191. Captain Slow - June 13, 2014

I have mixed reactions to this. The production values are of course amazing, but there’s way more to a film than that. Before I go further I want to be clear that I’m only interested in offering constructive feedback to make the final product better. I’m not a hater or whatever term you may want to use. With that out of the way I have some issues/questions/suggestions:

1. Please get a professional sound designer. The audio quality was good, bet the sound FX when the ships fired and flew past were all stock sounds I’ve heard countless times in fan films.

2. This is just a personal thing but it was a bit awkward to hear all these people talking about the war and the battles as if it was real. I know that none of Star Trek is real, but that’s done as a movie. This is in the style of a documentary and it just felt odd to me.

3. I know Alec Peters said he’s not a big fan of the new movies, but something that I think J.J. does very well is that with any big spectacle moment he always makes it feel connected to the characters. Watching the Enterprise rise out of the sea from the natives’ POV rather than just some wide shots of it is a good example. This helps the audience feel more attached to the moment.

4. This is just something I’m curious about as a film maker. The defocused backgrounds in the interview shots are done to look like it was shot with anamorphic lenses. That would actually be very cool. I’ve never seen any fan film shot anamorphically. Most people just add fake lens flares and leave it at that. So my question is, will anamorphic lenses be used on the final film?

Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts, take them or leave them.

192. northstar - June 13, 2014

1. Regarding Sound Effects I found this a while ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUfTIJgaNhc&feature=youtu.be
I think the guy puts a lot of thought into that, the only thing I could notice are the Photon torpedo shot sound, which to me is perfectly fine.

2. It will be hard to do a (fictional) war documentary wihout talking about the war… :)

3. This might really be a good advice for the full movie.

193. star trackie - June 13, 2014

# 167- #135 @star trackle. Gimmicky? It is called casting. I am sure you also complain when the actors are weak in fan films.

Yes, I do complain at weak acting. This isn’t my kid’s 1st grade drawing that is lovingly placed on the refrigerator, despite all it’s faults. It is supposed to entertain me. At the end of the day, that is the only barometer I need. If the acting is bad, it will not entertain me, whether or not its fan films or big studio productions. Weak acting (and bad writing) detracts from the film’s ability to do what it is intended to do, and that is entertain.

And if using all those convention celebrities isn’t gimmicky “stunt casting”, I don’t know what it! They are good actors, and they’ll do a fine job. There are also good, probably cheaper actors without any “name value” in fandom. But the nature of the very project makes it clear why they were cast, and that’s ok. But please don’t try and pretend it isn’t gimmicky!

194. dswynne - June 13, 2014

@184 (Cygnus-X1): The problem with your assessment is that, like the depiction of the technology seen in the P2A (Prelude to Axanar) trailer, it’s pure conjecture. However, I think that you projecting your own desires on the manner, vis-a-vis your opinion on JJ-Trek, rather than what the intent of the P2A people are trying to do. Besides, we all know that TOS was limited by the constraints of its budget, back in the day, and we all know that Gene Roddenberry was notorious in using “soft re-continuities” in order to create the narrative he wanted (such as the look of the Klingons, as well as using TNG to promote his humanistic tendencies). So there is precedence to tweaks to established ‘Trek lore.

@186 (Trekboi): As this trailer states, the Battle of Axanar is about protecting the values of the Federation, not corrupting it. So while a war element is a theme in the film, it’s more about the events that led to the type of relationship that the Federation and the Klingons would have in the future, as seen in TOS. Relax.

195. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

189. Hat Rick – June 13, 2014

At this point, I am uncertain as to whether there is a way, even in theory, for time travel to occur given even the broadest and most expansive possibilities offered in the light of the known laws of physics. This would involve not only the laws of general relativity but also that of quantum physics.

One of the reasons that interpreting the time travel device in ST09 as the black hole being only a portal between two very similar (or exactly the same) universes is that it obviates all of the issues intrinsic to time-travel. In a sense, Spock Prime and Nero “travel back in time,” but the physical reality of it would be that they’re simply traveling to a point in time in the Alternate universe at which the development of that universe was very similar (or exactly the same) as the analogous point in time in the history of the Prime Universe. So, in this scenario, they’re really not time-traveling at all, but if they don’t know exactly where the black hole has led them to (and how would they know?), then they’d look around the Alternate Universe and get the feeling that they had traveled back in time within their own universe. But, their journey has only been through space, from one universe into another, and not through time.

You’re right that time-travel appears to have prohibitions with regard to physics. If memory serves, General Relativity also prohibits the tearing of the fabric of space. So, travel between universes would more likely be via extra-dimensional pathways—like a wormhole or some path via an extra spatial dimension between parallel universes. This is more akin to the Brane Worlds model, where parallel universes exist side-by-side (perhaps as close to you as your nose) but they are extended into a spatial dimension or dimensions that our universe does not comprise. So, the only way to reach them is to travel into the other dimension somehow.

There’s no direct evidence for Brane Worlds yet, but there is potentially evidence (discovered earlier this year) for Cosmic Inflation, certain models of which entail the existence of a multiverse. The conclusion is actually being challenged as having been “overstated” and we won’t know until the official paper is published this Fall how well the data holds up to the challenge. But, still, top cosmologists regard a multiverse model of some form to be anywhere from a real possibility to a likelihood, depending upon who you ask. So, traveling between universes appears at this point to be more likely than traveling backwards in time within one’s own universe.

As I think more about the events in ST09, it occurs to me that the events taking place within the Prime Universe—Spock creating a black hole with Red Matter to swallow the supernova—might just as easily be interpreted as having occurred in a timeline which had already split off from our timeline of interest, so to speak, if we choose to regard the events in ST09 through MWI lenses, that is.

In the MWI, slightly different “universes” are constantly budding out of previous universes at every quantum event. A given particle zigs when it could also have zagged, and presto, the zag actually occurs in another universe, now separate (somehow) and on a different “timeline” from the universe where the particle zigged.

Theoretically, therefore, one could regard the timeline with the whole Spock/Romulus/supernova/Red Matter/black-hole drama as having already split off from the timeline that we follow in the next Trek adventure set in the Prime Universe. And, in my opinion, that would be a good way to regard it, because it side-steps the issues of (1) bad science—supernovas are very limited phenomena and don’t come anywhere close to threatening the entire Milky Way galaxy, so that whole threat in the movie was, at best, grossly overstated; (2) the scientific dubiousness and implications for Trekdom of Red Matter—bad guys threatening Earth or the Federation? No problem! Red Matter, a little dab’ll do ya! Just a drop of that stuff and *poof* bad guys all gone; and (3) Romulus being gone when it doesn’t have to be.

196. Captain Slow - June 13, 2014

@ 191 northstar

I’m about to watch that video. Thanks.

I suppose my issue with talking about the war is having it as a documentary. Like I said in my previous post, it’s a personal thing. To me it just felt awkward to have people talking about fictional events as if it was part of history.

197. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

193. dswynne – June 13, 2014

So there is precedence to tweaks to established ‘Trek lore.

Sure.

My point was only that the events in ST09 don’t necessarily have to be regarded as canon, given the ambiguity in the movie of where, exactly those events take place. They certainly can be regarded as canon if a given writer so chooses and wants to incorporate them into his story. But, writers of future Trek should not feel restricted by the events in ST09; they’d be on solid ground to regard those events as non-canon.

198. Andy M - June 13, 2014

All of you who nitpick…. STOP! Who cares?! Just enjoy the production values of the trailer and the mini movie itself when it becomes available later this year.

If you can do better, shut up and start your own Kickstarter by making your own TREK. I’ve enjoyed both Star Trek Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan films. I don’t necessarily agree with their story’s or ships designs or whatever it may be but I know better to sit back and enjoy the story/presentation.

Continue to make great STAR TREK fan episodes/films.

199. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

*…as non-canon with respect to the Prime Universe, I mean. Obviously writers doing stories set in the Alt Universe of ST09 would regard all events of ST09 and STID as canon within the Alt Universe.

200. Captain Slow - June 13, 2014

I just watched the sound effects video. So most of the sounds were really good but there were some such as the torpedoes and phasers being fired which since I’ve heard them many times just take me out of the scene. Especially the phaser sound since it’s from a different century.

201. Jared - June 13, 2014

woah those are some amazing production values – great merger of the franchise with BSG actors too!

202. Harry Ballz - June 13, 2014

@153 Keachick “coated in cheese by a someone who then licked it off”

Ooooh, that sounds like a gouda idea! :>)

203. Pensive's Wetness - June 13, 2014

OK. You got my interest in this project. Pretty much the previous 200+ folks said it better than me. But it did the most that any fan fic has done (made me think it was legal & cannon, it was that good an fan effort)

I look forward to more of this please…

204. Marja - June 13, 2014

170 TMMW, I was not responding as if you were Moonves. I was answering your question concerning the lack of new professional CBS-produced Trek.

Sorry if I was unclear to you, but … I do take care to read/edit my posts to ensure misunderstandings don’t occur …. I’m quite aware you’re not Moonves; if you were I’m sure “you” wouldn’t even consider looking at this board.

205. Marja - June 13, 2014

168 Alec Peters, Thanks for your consideration of this important element of Trek. Trek has inspired generations of POC [astronaut Mae Jemison always springs to mind].

206. Hat Rick - June 13, 2014

@ Cygnus-X1, 195,

Thanks for a thoughtful response. You obviously have substantial knowledge about the subject. I certainly hope the producers share some of our penchant for a degree of rigor that separates Trek from pure fantasy.

207. Marja - June 13, 2014

197 Capt Slow, I imagine the “docu-fiction” part is a frame surrounding the dramatic events surrounding the battle and during the battle — where the story “really” occurs. It’s a common device in novels, and for movies, I think of “Annie Hall” and “Reds,” for examples.

I hope the acting in this production will be good to excellent; I too think the casting of “actors known for Trek” is sometimes uncalled for. Gary Graham as Soval will be good, I’m sure. And Hertzler, et. al. are proven actors.

… but which fan production cast the guy who wore the rubber Gorn suit? I mean, rully? I suppose he has a SAG card ….

208. Marja - June 13, 2014

I know this is going to sound picky. I also know the Admiral is speaking with great passion and conviction. But two grammatical errors stood out and should be corrected if possible:

“… an enemy consumed and committed to our destruction” should be “an Empire that is consumed WITH and committed TO our destruction …”

“… the greatest challenge LAYING before us …” should be “… the greatest challenge LYING before us … “ or “the greatest challenge before us is to …”

Signed with all due respect, Alec, and boldly going where I may have no business,

Marja, your friendly fiction editor

PS And no, I know I could not possibly produce a film (or even a script) like this, but I am a pretty good editor.

209. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

hay Marja I didnt know your a editor

210. dmduncan - June 13, 2014

184. Cygnus-X1 – June 12, 2014

You were saved by the bell by the closure of the last thread where you keep promoting your mistakes as keen perceptions. I didn’t get a chance to respond.

Wanna continue here?

Let’s start with a question, shall we?

Should I understand you to mean that unless science as it is understood and accepted in the real world is perfectly represented in a fictional world in every way the same, that we cannot accurately infer (and accuracy here is calibrated by the intentions of the fiction’s creator) the science the writer is drawing on in his work, according to which we find the best model of understanding his work?

211. dmduncan - June 13, 2014

184. Cygnus-X1 – June 12, 2014

Question # 2, Mr. Cygnus: With absolutely no “hard evidence” that MJ had a bad case of OMPD (Online Multiple Personality Disroder) — no evidence by which to come to a firm conclusion that MJ was indeed masquerading as several people — you were still able to accurately surmise that he was doing so, and you even correctly got at least several of his other monikers correct.

There was nothing “in” his posts — as you like to use the word regarding MWI and ST.09 — that clearly identified his posts as without a doubt coming from the same person…

So…how ever did you know?

212. Marika - June 13, 2014

Alec, I love you ! Only seeing Soval back was enough for me :) Can’t wait for the movie !!!!!

213. Marja - June 13, 2014

209 Cygnus, I generally write more casually in this forum [and do make a occassional errah].

214. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

213. Marja – June 13, 2014

Me too. ;-)

215. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

210. dmduncan – June 13, 2014

I won’t opine as to what you infer.

I understand that the “creator” drew on a certain theory for the work.

Whether the work accurately or exclusively reflects that theory is another matter.

I’m not looking to hijack this thread with our debate, so don’t take offense if I keep it brief.

216. Cygnus-X1 - June 13, 2014

210. dmduncan – June 13, 2014

I would refer you to the links that I posted in #184.

217. Alec Peters - June 13, 2014

Things I basically ignore because I find them ignorant.

1) Star Trek isnt about war / Why do you have to militarize Star Trek.

Well, then you basically hated Deep Space 9, which was pretty much the best Star Trek since TOS. War is merely a setting, it is not a story unless you do a procedural like “Midway” or “A Bridge Too Far”. War stories are personal stories. “Patton”, “Saving Private Ryan”, “Flags of Our Fathers” are all PERSONAL stories set in a war. You don’t like the idea, well TOS set this up, we are just explaining it.

2) I hate JJ films so I will bitch about your project.

Uh, yeah, go away. See my post # 177.

3) All you have done is a trailer.

No, we shot a full 20-25 minute short which Rob Burnett (Free Enterprise) is editing now. All you have SEEN is a trailer. So ignorant statements about all we have shot is a trailer are just that. Be patient. You can whine all you want in 45 days when we release “Prelude to Axanar”.

I am a huge Star Trek fan. You can’t out geek me on Trek. What you can do is engage us in fun, constructive dialogue. Make sure you come see us at Las Vegas Con where we will have a big booth and where we will be screening Prelude. I would love to meet you all there.

Alec Peters

218. dmduncan - June 13, 2014

215. Cygnus-X1 – June 13, 2014

Well I asked you two reasonable questions designed to uncover your logical commitments. If you really want to test how good your thinking is, you should not be afraid to answer them instead of hiding behind a hijacking excuse after you’ve already gone off topic in a lengthy post continuing your argument from the last thread.

But I do understand why you don’t want to answer them. The answers aren’t going to help your case.

Now on to one of so many possible responses:

1307. Cygnus-X1 – June 11, 2014

“If Orci really said ‘MWI is the only theory that makes sense of the movie as a whole,” then I’m not sure what he meant.’”

“If he really said” it? Funny thing — the last time he “said it” was on the same thread from where I pulled your quote. And it was in a post directed to whom??? Why, to YOUM, that’s whom, Cygnus.

Bob Orci to Cygnus, and I quote:

“As to your notion that we backed into the theory after complaints, I’ve discussed ad-nasuem on this very site that the internal logic of the 09 movie can only be explained by conforming to this very theory.”

Selective memory again?

There are two accepted interpretations of Quantum Mechanics. The Copenhagen and the Many Worlds (which has many variations). And Bob damn sure didn’t base his movie on the Copenhagen, which the MWI was invented to get out of accepting.

So if Bob built his movie around an interpretation of QM and it wasn’t the Copenhagen, then which one was it?

Also, you propose the BRANE model as an equally plausible alternative to the MWI explanation for what you saw in ST.09? But where did you get the idea that every possible variant in an infinite universe exists in the BRANE model? That’s MWI.

Sorry, man, but it’s a no-BRANER.

So make up your mind and stop amnesiatically vacillating between commitments. Are you going to accept ALL of what Bob said about his movie, or only those parts that help your case when taken out of context?

To refresh your memory, here is Bob’s post to you in full telling you what he said, which includes a handy link.

723. boborci – May 21, 2014

Cygnus-1

Hi again.

The theory referred to as Quantum Mechanics may seem like a “vague reference to the most mysterious, least understood areas of science” to you, but is actually an old, well established theory, and considered to be the most successful theory in the history of science.

http://www.newscientist.com/topic/quantum-world

As to your notion that we backed into the theory after complaints, I’ve discussed ad-nasuem on this very site that the internal logic of the 09 movie can only be explained by conforming to this very theory. Spock and Prime Spock’s final conversation refers to this, as does the fact that Spock Prime remembers his past from an alternate universe, which can only be explained by the muti-universe theory which is based, too, on Quantum Mehcanis. You can ask the others to point out the exact references or elaborate and I’m sure someone will accommodate you. Sleep well!

219. Cygnus-X1 - June 14, 2014

218. dmduncan – June 13, 2014

I’m not getting goaded into a row over this. If you keep up this ad hominem nonsense—accusing me of this motive or that, like you did in the other thread—I’m going to ignore you.

We did a lot of back-and-forth in the other thread. I addressed there some of the issues that you are re-raising now.

I didn’t “selectively ignore” what Orci said; I just didn’t remember that line because it was just conflated with the quantum entanglement stuff, which is what I was focused on. I never took issue with him basing the movie on MWI, other than to admittedly nitpick that I’d have gone with Cosmic Inflation because it’s a more substantiated and plausible scientific theory. In fact, I have praised him many times for explaining the movie in terms of MWI.

Also, you propose the BRANE model as an equally plausible alternative to the MWI explanation for what you saw in ST.09? But where did you get the idea that every possible variant in an infinite universe exists in the BRANE model? That’s MWI.

That’s not MWI. Brane Cosmology is based upon String Theory. It is the multiverse model with which I am least familiar, but here’s what I know (1) the inordinately large number of possible dimensions in which strings can vibrate and (2) the inordinately small value for dark energy suggest (or, I should say, are interpreted by cosmologists as suggesting) a very large, perhaps infinite, set of universes, each with its own values for these phenomena. When regarded as merely one value is a very large or infinite set of possible values, it make more sense than being the only such value for string dimensions or for dark energy. Cosmic Inflation adds the third implication in that (according to Linde and Vilenkin) the inflaton field would never stop expanding once it got started—the portions of it that would continue expanding would do so much faster than the portions that decayed into bubble universes. These are different rationales for the multiverse than the MWI. Personally, I regard the MWI along side these other rationales as yet another signpost indicating the existence of a multiverse. To me that seems more plausible than entire universes (each complete with every star, planet, bird, tree, bacterium, etc…) popping suddenly into existence at every quantum event. For starters, there would seem to be a conservation of energy problem.

Spock and Prime Spock’s final conversation refers to this, as does the fact that Spock Prime remembers his past from an alternate universe, which can only be explained by the muti-universe theory which is based, too, on Quantum Mehcanis.

This statement is not true. Spock Prime being from another universe, derived from another multiverse model (not MWI), could still recognize his past from the alternate universe; likewise, the conversation between the two Spocks at the end would and could be exactly the same if Spock Prime and Alt Spock were from two universes in a non-MWI multiverse model. If Spock Prime went to another bubble universe that was identical or almost identical to the Prime Universe (of which there might be infinitely many), he’d still recognize the events going on in the Alt Universe as identical to (or indistinguishable) from his own history. The final convo between the two Spocks is merely pointing out that Spock Prime is not from a future time in the same universe such that the Grandfather Paradox would be an issue.

220. Keachick (Rose) - June 14, 2014

@Alec Peters – What is your actual connection with this film production? What do you do?

May I suggest that you employ someone with genuine PR experience because what I am reading here sucks. Wow – how to turn off, turn away potential audiences.

Bloody Hell…

221. Newman - June 14, 2014

I find Tony Todd’s speech a little cheesy but I am very much looking forward to this….probably more than I was Into Darkness. I pledged some money to see this happen.

222. dennycranium - June 14, 2014

@ Keachick-
Since I used the word “cheesedick” in my original post I will try to define it for you.
It’s sort of fluid actually. So today- a cheesedick is a whiny, negative naysayer who magically grows 10 feet tall and is bulletproof behind their keyboard. Meet them in real life, and they will tell you how great your project is.

223. dennycranium - June 14, 2014

@ Keachick-
Since I used the word “cheesedick” in my original post I will try to define it for you.
It’s sort of fluid actually. So today- a cheesedick is a whiny, negative naysayer who magically grows 10 feet tall and is bulletproof behind their keyboard. Meet them in real life, and they will tell you how great your project is.

224. Alec Peters - June 14, 2014

@dennycranium

You patience in dealing with the trolls here is very impressive. Just about everyone has told me not to waste my time posting in the comments section. But I like sharing the ideas behind Axanar. And I have no problem telling people when their comments are ridiculous. Funny how when you push back against the nonsense they don’t like it. I am never rude, but I am blunt. (New Yorker in me).

And you are absolutely right about those who hide behind the keyboard and feel it gives them the right to be rude. Not one of them has ever approached me at a con to share those opinions. And I am very approachable and easy to get along with. I love talking Star Trek.

You continue to entertain.

@Keachick – So far my comments should turn off exactly 6 people on here who have already stated that they don’t like Axanar for frankly, ridiculous reasons (as stated in my last post which you didn’t like). Most people seem to appreciate I am willing to jump in the conversation, since I respect almost everyone here.

@Newman – THANK YOU for your support!

225. Alec Peters - June 14, 2014

BTW, just for the record, the brand manager for Star Trek at CBS has told me that everything that happens before the Narada incident in ST 09 is canon in the Prime universe. And it makes sense too.

And if JJ did anything right in that movie, it was clearly the Kelvin design, which fits well into the Prime universe.

226. Marika - June 14, 2014

You know what i hate the most? I hate people who complain about everything ! We want ST back in TV , we re-watch all the series and some of us really like some of the fan productions; but when professionals come with a really good idea, with tools and instruments able to make a good quality movie of course we find those who troll or complain. Is not enough that we can;t see our show back but you also make these nice people to back away when they do this only because they love ST ! This is not a fan film, is an independent movie with professionals working on it.
Give it a break and enjoy what you have .

227. Hat Rick - June 14, 2014

It’s interesting to know that there’s a brand manager at CBS. I’m always interested to know that properties that millions love for their inspirational power and plot and philosophy and technology can be “managed,” not unlike a mall, car dealership, or apartment complex. Makes me want to be a “manager,” too.

228. Hat Rick - June 14, 2014

Just kidding, LOL. :)

229. Fez - June 14, 2014

@Keachick Alec Peters is actually the Executive Producer and one of the stars of Star Trek: Axanar. He also happens to be one of the Producers of Star Trek: Phase II. So he knows what he is talking about.

@Alec: My friend you have done some amazing work with your team for this project including the actors and the talents of Tobias Richter for CGI, amazing! Can’t wait for “Prelude to Axanar” and the main Axanar movie

230. dmduncan - June 14, 2014

219. Cygnus-X1 – June 14, 2014

I didn’t “selectively ignore” what Orci said; I just didn’t remember that line because it was just conflated with the quantum entanglement stuff, which is what I was focused on. I never took issue with him basing the movie on MWI, other than to admittedly nitpick that I’d have gone with Cosmic Inflation because it’s a more substantiated and plausible scientific theory. In fact, I have praised him many times for explaining the movie in terms of MWI.

***

Oh, I did not say in the above post that you selectively ignored what Bob said. I said you “selectively remember” what Bob said, and you admit you do not remember him saying it to you. Whether you do it consciously or not is not for me to say, and it doesn’t really matter why. Clearly you do it. And when a person keeps building and promoting an argument that depends on not remembering all the facts, it’s perfectly legitimate to say that person has selective memory.

And “it was just conflated” by whom? That “line” was in its own separate post, addressed to you. Okay, maybe YOU conflated it, but then don’t use third person verbiage to make it seem that you don’t own the conflating.

But now that you remember that Bob said what I “allege,” you’ve conceded the point, and it’s settled.

And therefore, if you are going to argue, as you were doing earlier, that we should just take the writers at their word regarding their movie, then 1. both MWI and Trek Classic time travel interpretations are in the movie, and 2. MWI is the only theory that explains the whole of it.

You were the one saying we should take the writers at their word. Having done so, we find that it makes my case more than it makes yours, and you lose that argument.

Do you want to continue to the next argument and how you are conflating Brane Cosmology with MWI?

231. I am not Herbert - June 14, 2014

Rose, you are coming off as not only ignorant, but belligerent… =( chill…

232. I am not Herbert - June 14, 2014

Alec Peters: “…if JJ did anything right…, it was clearly the Kelvin design…”

FULL AGREEMENT =)

233. Keachick (Rose) - June 14, 2014

I suggest that others stop trolling, including Alec Peters, executive producer or not.

BTW, I am not the one who started referring to others as “cheesedicks” et al…if I appear ignorant and belligerent, then it is only because others have been more so.

And I don’t accept your own ridiculous reasoning for why this fan made production should happen to deal with, surprise, more war.

234. Ahmed - June 14, 2014

@ 220. Keachick (Rose) – June 14, 2014

“@Alec Peters – What is your actual connection with this film production? What do you do?”

Perhaps you are still using AltaVista but there is a new search engine these days called Google! People use Google to search for information about anyone & anything on this planet & beyond.

It is a very easy search engine. Go to google.com, type the following query [Alec Peters + Star Trek] then hit Enter!

You will get about 130,000 results.

Alec Peters – Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alec_Peters

Alec Peters – IMDB
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5754507/

235. Marja - June 14, 2014

219 Cygnus and dmduncan, Can either of you explain PrimeSpock’s absolute certainty that it’s the “destiny” of Kirk to be captain? I mean, since PrimeSpock is in another universe, presumably with different influences and flows of time and energy?

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Y’know, Spock being a scientist and all.

236. Alec Peters - June 14, 2014

# 226 @Marika. THANK YOU. Well said.

# 229 @Fez Thanks for all your support!

# 231 @I am not Herbert. Thanks. Glad I am not the only one who felt that way. And also glad we agree on Kelvin.

# 233 @Ahmed Or you can just go to our web site.

http://startrekaxanar.com/about/

or our facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/StarTrekAxanar

237. Ahmed - June 14, 2014

@ 234. Marja – June 14, 2014

“219 Cygnus and dmduncan, Can either of you explain PrimeSpock’s absolute certainty that it’s the “destiny” of Kirk to be captain? I mean, since PrimeSpock is in another universe, presumably with different influences and flows of time and energy?”

O&K were just following on their own character cliche from the Transformers movies where Sam Witwicky, a know-nothingness fratboy, has the makings of a true leader!!

Nu-Kirk is special because he is SPECIAL. That is why he was promoted from cadet to the Captain of the flagship of the fleet in no time !!! That is his DESTINY.

238. Disinvited - June 14, 2014

#230. dmduncan – June 14, 2014

Your musings are interesting, but by hitching all your arguments to Orci’s wagon, at best, you can only prove that his third of the film (the other two being Kurtzman and the uncredited JJ) correctly expresses this view. The 2009 product as whole is a difficult prospect to argue as a faithfully adhering to his sole advocacy as the other two have said contradictory (and presumably are responsible for contributing same) things in regards to the science of their Trek movies. And I recall Orci himself once commenting that the beauty of their collaborative efforts in 2009’s movie was that the film can be looked at in other preconceived time travel notions and it still works as a film. In light of that, I believe what I am pointing out is that “they” didn’t commit to his “science”, he did. And while I have no doubt that he did set out to provide the dots that he believes can be connected in only the one way, I’m not so sure the others didn’t pepper it with things that makes what he and you see with clarity, clear at all.

239. dmduncan - June 14, 2014

234. Marja – June 14, 2014

Yes, Spock feels Kirk got screwed out of a chance to be the man he knows because of the alteration in timelines. Fortunately, Kirk independently took all the steps he needed to to become that same guy before he ever met Spock Prime. Yes, it’s a different timeline, but Kirk and Spock are still basically the same people. In MWI whether you have a universe where character X goes left or a universe where character X goes right, you have in both the SAME character. In each universe he simply makes a different possible choice and takes the consequences that come with it. And as the timelines keep diverging they split farther and farther apart in their differences. Except that Kirk swam upstream against the current back toward having the same outcome as his Prime Universe self. He was already almost there by the time Spock and Scotty helped him get back aboard the Enterprise.

The Brane model that Cygnus keeps proposing as an alternative is a completely different model of alternate universes that isn’t even required by String Theory. It is less plausible, less substantiated, and less likely, and nowhere have I found the idea that time travel takes one to a different Brane. Only in MWI have I ever seen that contemplated. If you go back in time and the trip itself either creates a new universe for you to enter, or you end up in a pre-existing parallel universe that mirrors the one you left, and in both escaping potential Grandfather Paradoxes, that is MWI/QM, not String Theory/Brane. Mirror/Mirror is a good example of the latter where the characters can go back and forth between universes. ST.09 is a good example of the former, where Spock is at home in the new universe.

Spock Prime is not just STUCK in that new universe, he is equally a part of it as any of its “native” inhabitants. In MWI there’s no good reason for Spock NOT to “interfere” given that he is one of that universe’s citizens.

So MWI is subtly interwoven throughout the movie. As Bob once said, it is in the DNA of the story. And whether Cygnus understands it or not, Bob is right.

240. dmduncan - June 14, 2014

237. Disinvited – June 14, 2014

You’re not carefully reading me.

I’m not hitching “all” my arguments to Bob’s wagon. I have plenty more left that have nothing to do with Bob’s wagon, and I have made them numerous times over the years. You would do well to notice that the Bob’s Wagon argument is one that Cygnus tried to use, and I am quite happy to show that my opponent’s premises lead to my conclusions better than they lead to his own, until he has nothing left to offer. I have multiple, independent, parallel arguments all leading to the same conclusion, not one hitched to Bob’s wagon, and I will appreciate it from anyone who bothers to enter this debate if they would pay strict attention to what I’ve said, and not to misrepresent it.

Don’t presume that because I have disposed of one argument in order, that I have no others left to make or get rid of next.

And your speculations about what the other writers did may be interesting to ponder, but they don’t count for much in a debate that is proceeding on the facts of what the movie shows us, what Bob said, and what we think about it in here.

If you have some specific argument to make rather than a general speculation that may or may not have bearing, I’d be happy to consider it, but then it has to be supported by something more than an entertained possibility.

241. Hat Rick - June 14, 2014

Reading this thread is hurting my “brane.” Me go to sleep now.

242. I am not Herbert - June 14, 2014

…yes, tomorrow’s another day! let’s make it a good one! =)

…just watched a pretty good movie: “Her”

“In this sci-fi romantic comedy starring Joaquin Phoenix, love comes to a lonely young writer in the sleekest of packages when he finds himself falling for the advanced operating system he purchased to run his life.”

http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Her/70278933

…not really a “romantic comedy”, but definitely Oscar-worthy =)

243. Phil - June 14, 2014

@241. Well, if it helps, I’ll give you credit for holding the ‘why can’t we all just get along’ fort here. I took a quick scroll and noticed nothing has changed….

244. Cygnus-X1 - June 14, 2014

225. Alec Peters – June 14, 2014

BTW, just for the record, the brand manager for Star Trek at CBS has told me that everything that happens before the Narada incident in ST 09 is canon in the Prime universe. And it makes sense too. And if JJ did anything right in that movie, it was clearly the Kelvin design, which fits well into the Prime universe.

I actually haven’t taken notice of any problems in the Kelvin design. I was reacting to having read some people here and elsewhere complaining about such issues. The complaint that the ST09 comprises so many never-before-seen aliens serving in Star Fleet seems like a valid complaint. Also the Enterprise being built on Earth (instead of in outer space). There are other continuity complaints that I can’t recall at the moment. And also the position that what happens in the BR-verse stays in the BR-verse would side-step other problems, like Red Matter. CBS’s decision makes sense, but I can see it the other way as well…

An implication of MWI is that there would have been myriad universes parallel to the “Prime Timeline” universe which the CBS decision now fixes as “the” universe in which the pre-incursion events occurred, and a huge number of these parallel universes would have been virtually indistinguishable from “the” universe in the Prime Timeline antecedent to the Prime Universe.

Realistically, Spock Prime had no way of knowing or figuring out (certainly within the short time span during which the events in the movie take place) exactly which universe the universe that he was in was an offshoot of, i.e. whether it was descended from a universe in the Prime Timeline, or descended from a universe parallel to Prime Timeline but almost exactly the same as it, or descended from a universe parallel to the Prime Timeline but significantly different in certain ways—and it might take Spock Prime some period of investigation longer than the time period covered in the movie for him to discover the significant differences (like the Kelvin design, for example).

There’s only so much that Spock Prime can research in a given day. It could well be that two days after the final scene in ST09, Spock is looking through a database of ship designs and notices something that is obviously different than what he remembers from his past. Spock investigates further and then has a sort of “oh, shit” moment where he realizes that he’s not in the universe that he assumed he was in. He’s actually in a universe that is an offshoot of a very similar parallel (to the Prime Timeline) universe, but one descended from a different timeline (not the Prime Timeline)—descended from a close neighbor of the Prime Timeline, if you will.

Anyway, that’s all academic at this point (at least, with respect to franchise Trek), in light of the CBS decision you’ve just shared with us.

245. Cygnus-X1 - June 14, 2014

235. Marja – June 14, 2014

Can either of you explain PrimeSpock’s absolute certainty that it’s the “destiny” of Kirk to be captain? I mean, since PrimeSpock is in another universe, presumably with different influences and flows of time and energy? It just doesn’t make sense to me. Y’know, Spock being a scientist and all.

That’s a good question. Apparently Spock presumes himself to be in a universe which is an offshoot of an “ancestor” of the universe that he comes from, i.e. an off-shoot of the Prime Timeline. How he knows this, I couldn’t say.

He doesn’t appear to have any way of really knowing this for sure (certainly in the short amount of time that he’s had to investigate just where exactly the black hole has delivered him to). Apparently Spock Prime just takes a guess that young Kirk is close enough in appearance to his old friend Kirk Prime and just runs with it, dispensing advice and so forth all based on the supposition that he’s in an off-shoot of the Prime Timeline. Given the enormous number of possible universes in which Spock Prime could have ended up—many of which would be very similar to a Prime Timeline off-shoot—it’s really enormously lucky that the black hole took him to that particular one. We’re talking one chance out of a number so large that it’s not worth typing out.

246. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

235. Marja – June 14, 2014

Regarding the three multiverse models, I am most interested in Cosmic Inflation because it seems the most plausible and it is the most substantiated.

Brane Cosmology is another model and it posits an extradimensional multiverse and a sort of firmament upon which all matter resides (a “membrane”), though this theory is not one that intuitively appeals to me, personally. It is, however, a serious area of study in physics today.

Finally, the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is just that — an “interpretation” of some of the strangest, most inexplicable set of observations in physics. Nobody knows why the strange things in Quantum Mechanics happen—not even the top physicists in the field—all we know is that they happen and they happen consistently and predictably.

The “interpretation” by Everett of some of the strangeness observed in Quantum Mechanics is that every quantum event happens in its own universe which suddenly pops into existence as a duplicate of its predecessor but with a different result for a given quantum event. If a particle can either zig or zag, the Many Worlds Interpretation is that the particle zigs in one universe and a duplicate universe suddenly pops into existence, completely formed with stars, planets, birds, trees, bacteria, etc., wherein the particle zags. There is no evidence for the Many Worlds Interpretation, and, perhaps not surprisingly, most particle physicists do not believe in it.

There are basically two camps of research going on right now with regard to cosmology that would entail a multiverse—Cosmic Inflation (Guth, Linde, Vilenkin) and Brane Cosmology (Turok, Steinhardt).

As said, Inflation might have some direct evidence in support of it (we’ll know this Fall). Brane Cosmology is derived from String Theory, which is a more controversial field of study. It comprises real-world measurements and observations, but the theory which results is, as yet, untestable. Finally, MWI does not involve any direct evidence and is simply an “interpretation” of the mysterious behavior of particles.

247. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

P.S. Cosmic Inflation basically entails that our universe (and countless others) were borne out of a negative pressure scalar energy field, i.e. “the inflaton field,” which was rather like the dark energy currently driving our universe’s acceleration. Quantum fluctuations in the inflaton field caused it to decay into regions referred to as “bubble universes” or “pocket universe.” Basically, imagine a bunch of soap suds wherein each bubble represents a universe and the whole collection of suds is the multiverse. So far, the theory has held up to observation and measurement. The theory predicted the existence of gravitational waves from the early, extremely rapid expansion of our universe, and back in March a team of researchers announced that they had observed and measured these very gravitational waves. Their discovery has since been challenged as “overstating the results” and we’ll know this Fall whether the discovery holds up to the challenge.

248. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

P.P.S. The MWI is a serious theory based on mathematics that, to date, have not been disproven. But neither can the theory to date be proven and obviously there are no direct observations of universes splitting off from each other and whatnot. My own opinion is that there must be some fundamental attribute of the universe and/or space and/or matter that we’ve either got wrong or aren’t yet aware of which accounts for the inexplicable observations in Quantum Mechanics. Here’s one illustration of how little agreement there is among the pros as to just what, exactly, is happening in QM: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/17/the-most-embarrassing-graph-in-modern-physics/

249. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

@ Cygnus-X1, 248,

So the fact is that there are “baby universes” that are possible under the Cosmic Inflation theory, am I correct?

If so, it would make some kind of “a wizard did it” explanation of travel between universes possible from a literary standpoint, and even from a speculative standpoint. It would also mean that our spacetime might prohibit time travel (though other spacetime (universes) might allow it.

I believe that this would be implied in your comments to the extent that you say that Spock Prime might have simply traveled (via the magic of “Red Matter”) to a very-similar-but-not-actually-universe-of-interest version of the prime timeline. In other words, the Marty McFly version of time travel did not actually occur; it was more the version of time travel seen in TNG when the crew encountered trillions of possible Enterprises, including the one with a desperate Riker shouting for help. (God help me, I can’t remember the name of that episode. It was Worf-centric, though.)

At the end of one of the “Men in Black” movies, there was a coda in which the entirety of our universe was contained in a locker in Grand Central Station in some other, much vaster universe. Taken literally, that might or might not be true — the central conceit of that, that is. But it’s interesting to think about, as well.

Thanks for your great comments and hoped-for response.

250. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

P.S.: I realize I’m confusing the MWI (Copenhagen) which probably underlay said TNG episode (as it was somewhat more au courant at the time) with the cosmic inflation model. The point I’m trying to make is that travel between universes that arise from the cosmic forth seems much more plausible nowadays than travel backward in time in the “same” universe whence we came.

If you think about it, the violations of not just causality, but also known laws of thermodynamics (as conceived in our univese) would be incredible. For example, what fund of energy does the universe draw from in order to create the second Marty McFly? Energy and matter , wherever and whenever they are, are a zero-sum equation in any one (known) universe.

251. PaulB - June 15, 2014

#208 Marja: Since you’re being picky, let me be picky, too. It should be “consumed by,” not “consumed with.”

No human has been consumed with a wild animal, but some humans have been consumed by them. That’s the analogy in use, so “consumed by” is correct.

:) Peace, fellow editor!

252. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

249. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

So the fact is that there are “baby universes” that are possible under the Cosmic Inflation theory, am I correct?If so, it would make some kind of “a wizard did it” explanation of travel between universes possible from a literary standpoint, and even from a speculative standpoint. It would also mean that our spacetime might prohibit time travel (though other spacetime (universes) might allow it.

As far as I know, Hawking-stylebaby universes do jibe with Cosmic Inflation. Each universe, baby or adult, could have its own laws of physics which differ significantly from those in our universe. So, you are correct. One might travel into a baby universe via a black hole and also back in time within that baby universe. One might also travel through some sort of wormhole into another “adult” universe and back in time in that adult universe (if the laws of physics there allow it). A third possibility is that one might effectively travel back in time, even if the laws of both universes don’t allow “time-travel” per se, by traveling to a universe whose development is identical to ours excepted it formed later and hence is presently in an earlier stage of development. All of these would be possible in an infinite “bubble” multiverse. And there might be yet another possibility implied by Relativity—past, present and future existing simultaneously—but I’m admittedly confused about this. At the time that TNG was on the air, physicists like Hawking thought that “time” had no meaning outside of our universe. Today, I think that most top physicists (at least, many of them) believe that time exists outside of our universe but might be different in some fundamental way. So, maybe you could travel simultaneously “back in time” and also into another adult bubble universe. A wormhole into another adult bubble universe would be a shortcut somehow through the inflaton field in between universes. Maybe traveling through the inflaton field (or whatever substance the “throat” of the wormhole is made out of) does funny things to “time” as we know it. Who knows.

I believe that this would be implied in your comments to the extent that you say that Spock Prime might have simply traveled (via the magic of “Red Matter”) to a very-similar-but-not-actually-universe-of-interest version of the prime timeline. In other words, the Marty McFly version of time travel did not actually occur; it was more the version of time travel seen in TNG when the crew encountered trillions of possible Enterprises, including the one with a desperate Riker shouting for help. (God help me, I can’t remember the name of that episode. It was Worf-centric, though.)

There are actually three “time-travel” scenarios there that you’re mentioning.

The one with the very-similar-but-not-actually-universe-of-interest version of the prime timeline is the MWI. This is even more speculative than the Cosmic Inflation possibilities that I just mentioned insofar as with Cosmic Inflation, (if it’s true) you at least know what lies between the bubble universes, i.e. the inflaton field. I don’t know that MWI says anything about where all of its universes are or what lies between them, if anything.

Right, the Marty McFly (and also TNG “Yesterday’s Enterprise”) versions of time-travel did not occur.

And, right, the TNG episode (“Parallels”) with the haggard Riker and the 265,000 Enterprises or whatever—that was also based on MWI. Every quantum “reality” was converging into the Prime Universe. Cosmic Inflation is basically a modification and elaboration of the Big Bang Theory with the implication (according to Linde and Vilenkin) that instead of just our universe, there might be others, perhaps infinitely many, that formed via the same process. I find Inflation the most compelling multiverse scenario because it’s an extension of what we’ve been observing and measuring with respect to Big Bang cosmology since the 1920s. Whereas the MWI seems more like magic—every quantum event entails a *poof* new universe. Trillions upon trillions upon trillions of new, fully-formed universes popping into existence *poof* every nanosecond (probably at an even faster rate than that).

At the end of one of the “Men in Black” movies, there was a coda in which the entirety of our universe was contained in a locker in Grand Central Station in some other, much vaster universe. Taken literally, that might or might not be true — the central conceit of that, that is. But it’s interesting to think about, as well

Sure, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if our universe or the multiverse were some subatomic particle in a much larger manifold. Or if the smallest structures in our universe (strings?) were actually entire universes unto themselves. Looking around every day, we see this sort of pattern. Whenever we think we’ve found the smallest or biggest thing that there is, we invariably find something beyond it—smaller or larger. Here’s an awesome illustration of that idea: http://scaleofuniverse.com/

253. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

250. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

P.S.: I realize I’m confusing the MWI (Copenhagen) which probably underlay said TNG episode (as it was somewhat more au courant at the time) with the cosmic inflation model. The point I’m trying to make is that travel between universes that arise from the cosmic forth seems much more plausible nowadays than travel backward in time in the “same” universe whence we came.

I would agree insofar as traveling between bubble universes doesn’t entail the grandfather paradox. But it does entail many, many unknowns that we can only speculate about.

You’re raising a lot of interesting points.

If you think about it, the violations of not just causality, but also known laws of thermodynamics (as conceived in our univese) would be incredible. For example, what fund of energy does the universe draw from in order to create the second Marty McFly? Energy and matter , wherever and whenever they are, are a zero-sum equation in any one (known) universe.

Right, that’s another problem with intra-universe time-travel. If you add mass to the universe in the past in the form of “future” Marty McFly, you’ve violated the First Law of Thermodynamics. Unless, like I mentioned in the previous post with respect to Relativity, the past, present and future all co-exist simultaneously with each other within the universe. I wish I knew more about this idea—whether it’s just Special Relativity time dilation or something else.

Another compelling attribute of Inflation is how it allows for an infinite multiverse while conserving energy. The inflaton field is basically a negative gravity field. So, you have the inflaton field pushing ever outward and the gravity of matter/energy always pulling inward, adding up to zero total energy in the multiverse system.

254. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

235. Marja – June 14, 2014

Can either of you explain PrimeSpock’s absolute certainty that it’s the “destiny” of Kirk to be captain? I mean, since PrimeSpock is in another universe, presumably with different influences and flows of time and energy?
It just doesn’t make sense to me. Y’know, Spock being a scientist and all.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent trying to answer this. Spock Prime mind-melds with Alt Kirk in the cave. I guess he just susses out from the mind-meld that Alt Kirk is similar enough to his “old friend” Kirk Prime and feels that he should encourage Alt Kirk to live up to the potential of Kirk Prime.

In terms of the internal logic of the movie, Alt Kirk was born in a different timeline than Kirk Prime. And nobody knows how the Alt Timeline will unfold and what will happen along the way. Alt Spock actually says this almost verbatim during his 30-second-long speech explaining the “alternate reality” that they’re in.

So, you’re right to be confused as to how Spock Prime can know that Alt Kirk is supposed to grow up like Kirk Prime. Spock Prime can’t really know this. And deterministically, there’s a good chance that it won’t happen, that all of the events set into motion by Nero’s incursion and mayhem in the Alt Universe will entail the consequence of Alt Kirk growing up differently from Prime Kirk or even that Alt Kirk might die before he gets the chance to become captain (especially in light of the mayhem being perpetrated by Nero during this time in the movie). It’s not a scientific deduction on the part of Spock Prime; just a bit of drama for the movie.

255. Keachick (Rose) - June 15, 2014

#235 – It is the same conceit (yes – conceit) used by Admiral Pike when he chews out Kirk and Spock for “altering Nibiru’s destiny”. Both Pike and prime Spock are “playing God” by claiming knowledge of people’s destiny. Then there is the other Spock notion of “allowing the universe to unfold as it SHOULD”. How does he know how it *should* unfold, as opposed to *should not*? In reality, this is about personal wish/desire, but couched in terms that make the person appear to others as being more intelligent wiser, more knowing than the rest, including Kirk.

In Kirk’s case, re the Nibiru incident, that was one of the reasons he was supposedly sent back to the Academy and had Pike screaming at Spock and Kirk.

(In fact, most viewers needed to be reminded that it was the lying on official record of events at Nibiru (eg Kirk describing things as “uneventful”) that was far more egregious on Kirk’s part. I know this because I was the one reminding people 13 months back.)

I think that both Kirks have shown more genuine *Faith* and *Humility* than prime Spock. Perhaps this is why I prefer Kirk as a character and always have.

My better half says that Kirk’s line in STID – “I don’t know what I am supposed to do, only what I can do” sums the entire nature/character of this individual. In other words, he has no real idea how the universe unfolds, is meant to, should or should not. He just knows or tries to work out what the (relative) needs are of those around him and what he can do at any given moment.

256. Disinvited - June 15, 2014

# 252. Cygnus-X1 – June 15, 2014,#249. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

Another thing to consider is in a universe where intra-time travel into its past is somehow blocked or forbidden by its physics, it might still be possible if you tunnel into an otherwise identical universe whose time’s arrow is in the opposite direction. Travel as many years “forward” in anti-time via your starship’s relativistic time dilation at traveling near light speeds in the anti-time universe that you want to go back in your own, then tunnel across home and you are “back” in time of your past.

Voided only if time and anti-time are somehow an explosive combination that can’t be shielded fr

257. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

@Cygnus-X1, 252,

“The one with the very-similar-but-not-actually-universe-of-interest version of the prime timeline is the MWI. This is even more speculative than the Cosmic Inflation possibilities that I just mentioned insofar as with Cosmic Inflation, (if it’s true) you at least know what lies between the bubble universes, i.e. the inflaton field. I don’t know that MWI says anything about where all of its universes are or what lies between them, if anything.”

Before I begin, I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your input and this discussion. I’m about 20 years out of date regarding the latest theories about cosmology and I’ve never been an expert at it to begin with. Thus, your comments are educational, clear, coherent, and therefore delightful to read.

I wanted to address the point you made in the quote above. I think I take your meaning that “the one with the very-similar-but-not-actually-universe-of-interest version of the prime timeline is the MWI,” if, by saying that, what you mean is that the MWI is somewhat of an overlay — a literal interpretation — above whatever is actually happening as depicted in ST09 as Spock Prime (seemingly?) entered the past. The original point I was trying to convey was that it appeared to me that you were commenting on the fact that Spock Prime could have simply gone into a nearly identical universe through the wormhole, rather than literally Marty McFly-ed into the actual past of the Prime Universe.

The implications of this to me is that, if I gather correctly, the MWI-style inter-universe (not intra-universe) travel from the Prime Universe to the one (let’s call it Universe sub 2) with the young James Kirk whom Spock Prime was to meet shortly at Delta Vega is not necessarily impossible, but might be possible under the Cosmic Inflation model. This would be because, as I understood you comments (and was attempting to restate, none to effectively, it seems), it’s possible (for all we know) that Spock Prime could have simply traveled through the wormhole to Universe sub 2 at that universe’s “present” development, which happened to be decades behind the Prime Universe’s. In other words, the wormhole was a conveyance that cut through the cosmic froth, or whatever remains of it, to another universe. Please let me know if I’m misconstruing the MWI as an intellectual overlay over the Cosmic Inflation model.

The bottom line is that there could be a multitude of possible universes very nearly identical or perhaps even identical in all respects to ours, without resorting to the literal coexistence of countless googolplexes of quantum “realities” WITHIN our own universe.

Perhaps some of this is semantical, but perhaps it is not. If the MWI theory is identified solely with the so-called “quantum reality” theory, then it is rooted in speculation arising from quantum physics. If the MWI, on the other hand, is freed from only adhering to that theory, then it is consonant with macro-observations (to some extent) regarding the negative inflation of the universe.

Another point that perhaps I could raise is to say that there could be a literal infinity of universes under either the Cosmic Inflation model, or a the “quantum realities” speculation arising from MWI. It’s just that there is this (normally) uncrossable barrier between multiverses / quantum realities.

258. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

As I think about what I just posted, I think I probably need a clarification on whether MWI is strictly defined as a quantum theory only, or perhaps a more general term. If, in your description excerpted in my above post, the term “MWI” used to denote only the original quantum-based theory — i.e., that every possible reality is inherently equal and possible as a result of the “bizarre” nature of the quantum world, then really I’m not sure why Spock Prime’s journey through the wormhole could exclusively be described as a predicated on it rather than as travel through the cosmic froth.

It may be that we’re trying to preserve a place for the use of the term “MWI” that limits it to non-CI uses, and if so, then I’m on board with that if to do so it’s in the interest of precision. In that case, we might need an alternative term to describe the multiplicity of identical or near-identical universes that exists other than our own (other than the more generic term “multiversal” or similar).

259. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

Finally, @Cygnus-X1, in retrospect, it appears that it was I who confused the matter initially by citing the Riker / Worf TNG episode, which does seem very MWI-based, in connection with the Spock Prime wormhole event. This tends to confound the issue of multiple universes with MWI. Basically, my own confusion is in large part my fault because I wasn’t being clear or consistent. My apologies, and my appreciation for your interesting comments and response in advance.

Here’s how I would inventory the various theories and their implications for our beloved Trek universe(s) among other things, and see if you agree or disagree:

1. MWI: Seen in the TNG episode with the hundreds of thousands of universes. Arises from quantum theory.

2. Cosmic Inflation: A theory arising primarily from observed astronomical occurrences of negative expansion and so-called “dark energy” and also consistent with the long-accepted Big Bang theory.

3. The “brane” theory: A theory of the known universe arising from mathematical extrapolations of quantum behavior, positing the existence of many unseen dimensions within our own universe, and a successor/implication of superstring theory (as you’ve alluded to).

4. Both the MWI and the “brane” theory would be perfectly workable with or without CI, and with or without “other universes” in the CI sense.

5. The Marty McFly model of time travel assuming the existence of only one universe seems less and less likely the more we explore the implications of it.

6. Spock Prime’s journey seemingly into the past could be consistent with the implications of “1,” “2,” and possibly “3.”

I realize that not all of these theories have a lot to say about time travel and that basically, we’re just having a bit of fun speculating about how they would work in light of ST09 (and, for that matter, for those playing along at home, Mr. Orci’s longstanding comments that the Prime Universe still exists).

260. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

^^ Correction: Sorry, I wrote “negative expansion” when I should have written “negative pressure.”

261. Cygnus-X1 - June 15, 2014

256. Disinvited – June 15, 2014

Yeah, I remember “anti-time” being referenced in a TNG episode.

In an Inflationary multiverse, I don’t know if or how a different flow of time outside of our universe (either in the inflaton field or in another bubble universe) would translate vis-a-vis inside of our universe. The effect of time on you in another universe might be totally localized to that universe or it might translate to some movement through time in our universe, like you’re supposing.

Time is a funny thing and, while it was simplified by Einstein into just another “dimension,” it’s clearly different from the spatial dimensions and actually has an inverse relationship with the spatial dimensions, i.e. the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time (time dilation).

Some physicists (Julian Barbour) believe that “time” per se is actually an illusion and doesn’t really exist as a “dimension” or anything else. I tried listening to a lecture about it by him, but he’s such a boring speaker that I didn’t last long, so I can’t elaborate on his reasoning. Also, I think that his is a minority opinion among physicists, but who knows.

Anyway, once you get outside of our universe, you’re really through the looking glass and your guess about time flowing backwards in other universes seems as reasonable a speculation as any. It is an interesting device for a time-travel story.

262. Hat Rick - June 15, 2014

@Cygnus-X1, 261,

I wonder if there is any reason to presuppose that the flow of time would be similar in all possible universes. Mathematics and logic do follow a specific flow and set of assumptions. It’s really not true that technically anything is possible in any possible existence unless we want to allow for the possibility that mathematics and logic can work differently on a fundamental basis, and then the game is somewhat lost. For example, I’m not aware of any mathematics that assumes that the real numbers “1” and “0” are universally interchangeable in calculations, unless it’s a very abstruse and speculative form of mathematics that seems to make very little sense logically. The principle of noncontradiction is, likewise, a fundamental precept of logic that is axiomatic, and any result of the application of logic as an extension of what is strictly observable wouldn’t pass muster, resulting in the certainty that what we can prove is possible is only what is logically allowable.

There is also the idea that if there are literally an infinitude of universes under any model, there should be a universe in which there are no other universes, which seems to defeat the initial premise. Such a universe either exists or not, and neither possibility is seemingly compatible with the initial assumption.

Further to this, there should be consideration of the fact that if there are literally an infinitude other universes, then there could be universes in which the entire universe is light and stars are pinpoints of darkness — i.e., a photographic-negative universe, which should be inaccessible as a practical matter to any investigation from our universe.

As Spock would say, the matter is quite fascinating.

263. Cygnus-X1 - June 16, 2014

257. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

Before I begin, I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your input and this discussion. I’m about 20 years out of date regarding the latest theories about cosmology and I’ve never been an expert at it to begin with. Thus, your comments are educational, clear, coherent, and therefore delightful to read.

Hey, you bet. I’m no expert, either. Just a hobbyist. If you’re interested in Cosmic Inflation, I’d recommend searching for recent lectures by Alan Guth at YouTube. He originated the theory in 1980 and he happens to be a very good speaker who’s very good at explaining his theory and physics in general. It tends to get a bit confusing because Guth is very conservative in his lectures about Inflation in that he tends to avoid discussing any pre-Big-Bang corollaries, like those built upon his theory a few years later by Linde & Vilenkin—and these are the things that we are most interested in here, i.e. multiverse, etc. But Guth will give you a good explanation of how inflation works. You can then go to Linde & Vilenkin for the pre-Big-Bang multiverse corollaries, though they’re not the speakers that Guth is. You might prefer articles by them instead of lectures.

I wanted to address the point you made in the quote above. I think I take your meaning that “the one with the very-similar-but-not-actually-universe-of-interest version of the prime timeline is the MWI,” if, by saying that, what you mean is that the MWI is somewhat of an overlay — a literal interpretation — above whatever is actually happening as depicted in ST09 as Spock Prime (seemingly?) entered the past. The original point I was trying to convey was that it appeared to me that you were commenting on the fact that Spock Prime could have simply gone into a nearly identical universe through the wormhole, rather than literally Marty McFly-ed into the actual past of the Prime Universe.

Well, let’s separate this all into two categories—Trek canon and film analysis/criticism. Orci said that he based the whole time-travel/universe-hop device on MWI and we now know from Alec Peters that CBS regards all pre-incursion events in ST09 as canon. So, at least in terms of franchise Trek, we have to accept all of that. Whether or not the internal logic of the movie makes sense, particularly with regard to Spock Prime and Alt Spock knowing things that they have no way of knowing given the events in the movie and how MWI works, and whether the MWI premise was clearly portrayed and sufficiently elaborated upon in the movie is where we get into the analysis/criticism.

I went back and re-read the comments about MWI in ST09 from when the movie first came out, and if you have Orci’s explanation going into the movie and know what to look for, there’s just enough info to establish that the intended time-travel premise is MWI, though you can see it other ways given the ambiguity of what little phrasing there is about the issue in the movie. There’s such a minimal amount of discussion actually in the movie about the most important event (with respect to the plot of the story) and the most interesting physical phenomenon (MWI-portal/black hole) in it that one might suspect Paramount was paying by the word.

The implications of this to me is that, if I gather correctly, the MWI-style inter-universe (not intra-universe) travel from the Prime Universe to the one (let’s call it Universe sub 2) with the young James Kirk whom Spock Prime was to meet shortly at Delta Vega is not necessarily impossible, but might be possible under the Cosmic Inflation model. This would be because… it’s possible (for all we know) that Spock Prime could have simply traveled through the wormhole to Universe sub 2 at that universe’s “present” development, which happened to be decades behind the Prime Universe’s. In other words, the wormhole was a conveyance that cut through the cosmic froth, or whatever remains of it, to another universe.

Your description of an Inflationary Multiverse as a possible premise for the movie’s time-travel is correct. However, there are basically two clues (if you know how to interpret them) signaling that the device is actually MWI and not Inflation: (1) During his 30-second speech explaining the whole “alternate universe” concept at play, Alt Spock says that the “flow of time” has been “altered” by Nero’s incursion and everyone’s “destiny” along with it. I distinctly remember, around the time that ST09 was released, Orci saying that they’d made this 30-second speech intentionally ambiguous so that it could be interpreted as the Back to the Future time-travel device. So, if you’re thinking along those lines, then it’s just like in TNG Yesterday’s Enterprise, where the incursion of the Enterprise-C changes how history unfolds for everyone. With respect to Cosmic Inflation as a possible premise, it would be as you described. The Alt characters are indigenous to a universe identical to the Prime Universe but at an earlier point in its development, and this Alt Universe would have unfolded exactly the same in 100 years or whatever as the Prime Universe, if not for Nero’s incursion messing everything up and “altering the flow of time” (i.e. changing history) and everyone’s “destiny.” The phrase “altering the flow of time” is supposed to imply a deviation from the Prime Timeline, though it’s a confusing phrasing in that the “flow” of time, i.e. the rate at which time flows, has not been altered; it’s actually history that has been altered, and the history of an identical alternate universe in a CI model could be likewise described as “altered” by an incursion from another universe.

With that 30-second speech, Alt Spock is telling us two things: (1) he knows that they all live in an MWI multiverse; and (2) he knows that Nero is from a future point in the same timeline as the pre-incursion events. Alt Kirk presumes that Nero is from their future (like Marty McFly), but Alt Spock corrects him by saying that Nero’s incursion has “altered” history such that they’re all now in a different timeline. Given the events in the movie, there’s no way that Alt Spock could have known that Nero was from one particular timeline or another. But, in his response to Alt Kirk, Alt Spock implies that to be the case, so we have to proceed from there.

(2) The other clue that’s supposed to confirm the MWI premise is that Spock Prime says to Alt Spock, “As my customary farewell would appear oddly self-serving….” This is meant to imply that Spock Prime is a future version of Alt Spock, though technically he’s not since Alt Spock has grown up and now exists in a different timeline and the future version of himself will necessarily differ from Spock Prime.

Though, again, this line could also be interpreted as (emphasis added), “As my customary farewell would appear oddly self-serving,” meaning that he’s acknowledging that it’s not actually self-serving, but might appear so. Again, technically his farewell is not self-serving based on the MWI premise nor based on a CI premise, as both premises entail Alt Spock not being an antecedent of Spock Prime. In other words, Alt Spock will, by definition, grow up to be a different person from Spock Prime—it’s not like future guy guy meeting himself in the past. Based on MWI it’s future guy meeting someone who’s closely related to his past self; and with CI it’s future guy meeting a nearly identical but separately-formed version of his past self (who would’ve been identical if not for Nero’s incursion). But, again, Orci says it’s supposed to be MWI, so we have to analyze it based on his intention.

The bottom line is that there could be a multitude of possible universes very nearly identical or perhaps even identical in all respects to ours, without resorting to the literal coexistence of countless googolplexes of quantum “realities” WITHIN our own universe.

Right. Though, doing it that way wouldn’t have the component of being a Back to the Future time travel story mixed and matched with a Mirror, Mirror alternate universe story, which is what Orci was going for in ST09. The CI premise would have the appearance of time-travel, or it might even involve time-travel if it were done with an anti-time component (like Disinvited mentioned), but it wouldn’t actually be a guy from the future of that universe traveling back in time to wreak havoc.

Though, the implications for the characters in both the MWI and CI premises aren’t really any different in terms of them not being the antecedents of their Prime Universe counterparts. When Nero is taking his revenge upon the Federation in the Alt Universe, everyone that he hurts after the Kelvin (except Spock Prime) is actually not existing in the Prime Timeline and therefore not an antecedent of the Prime Universe; these Alt characters are no more closely related to their Prime Universe counterparts than their counterparts in myriad other “neighboring” parallel universes. So, in that sense, there’s not that much of a difference between Nero avenging himself upon identical CI alternate universe versions of the characters as opposed to MWI alternate timeline versions of the characters.

Perhaps some of this is semantical, but perhaps it is not. If the MWI theory is identified solely with the so-called “quantum reality” theory, then it is rooted in speculation arising from quantum physics. If the MWI, on the other hand, is freed from only adhering to that theory, then it is consonant with macro-observations (to some extent) regarding the negative inflation of the universe.

The MWI is a way of interpreting Quantum Mechanics. Hugh Everett originated the idea back in1957, long before Guth originated CI (1980). Though, even if MWI is not actually true, it might be yet another indication of the existence of a multiverse. That is to say, it might be that the “universes” in which all quantum events are theorized to occur by MWI are actually CI or Brane type universes and not *poof* magically appearing near-duplicates constantly popping into existence from who-knows-where.

258. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

As I think about what I just posted, I think I probably need a clarification on whether MWI is strictly defined as a quantum theory only, or perhaps a more general term. If, in your description excerpted in my above post, the term “MWI” used to denote only the original quantum-based theory — i.e., that every possible reality is inherently equal and possible as a result of the “bizarre” nature of the quantum world, then really I’m not sure why Spock Prime’s journey through the wormhole could exclusively be described as a predicated on it rather than as travel through the cosmic froth.

It could be either, especially if you nix the “flow of time” phrase which is ambiguous anyway. In a CI or Brane multiverse premise, Alt Kirk’s dialogue would work exactly as it is in ST09. He thinks that Nero is “from the future and knows what’s going to happen.” Nero is from the future, but in a CI or Brane premise he’s from the future of an identical universe. Nero has been messing around in this alt universe for 20 years by this point in the movie and, as a result, the alt universe is developing in a way that is different from how it would have developed without Nero’s meddling it. Instead of saying that the “flow of time” has been altered, in a CI or Brane premise, Alt Spock should say that “history has been altered,” which is how you might interpret that ambiguous line in ST09, anyway.

It may be that we’re trying to preserve a place for the use of the term “MWI” that limits it to non-CI uses, and if so, then I’m on board with that if to do so it’s in the interest of precision. In that case, we might need an alternative term to describe the multiplicity of identical or near-identical universes that exists other than our own (other than the more generic term “multiversal” or similar).

“MWI” refers exclusively to the Everett interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. “Multiverse” is used as a generic term for any cosmological model comprising more than one universe.

259. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

Here’s how I would inventory the various theories and their implications for our beloved Trek universe(s) among other things, and see if you agree or disagree:

1. MWI: Seen in the TNG episode with the hundreds of thousands of universes. Arises from quantum theory. “Parallels,” yes that is MWI.

2. Cosmic Inflation: A theory arising primarily from observed astronomical occurrences of negative expansion and so-called “dark energy” and also consistent with the long-accepted Big Bang theory. Yes, negative pressure scalar energy field (entailing a negative gravitational effect).

3. The “brane” theory: A theory of the known universe arising from mathematical extrapolations of quantum behavior, positing the existence of many unseen dimensions within our own universe, and a successor/implication of superstring theory (as you’ve alluded to).

Basically. The idea is that each universe exists on a giant “membrane” and these membranes exist in manifold called “the bulk” which extends into a extra dimensions, such that there might be another 3-D universe existing a millimeter from your nose, but that millimeter is one millimeter’s journey into an extra dimension (a dimension which our universe does not comprise) and so we have no contact with it this whole, other universe.

In order to access that universe you’d have to travel one millimeter into that extra dimension somehow. The idea that there might be a huge, possibly infinite number of these Brane Worlds comes from the interpretation of (1) the inordinately small value for dark energy, and (2) the huge number of possible dimensions in which strings can vibrate. String Theory comprises a Quantum theory of gravity, but I don’t remember much about that.

4. Both the MWI and the “brane” theory would be perfectly workable with or without CI, and with or without “other universes” in the CI sense.

Right. The three theories are largely unrelated.

5. The Marty McFly model of time travel assuming the existence of only one universe seems less and less likely the more we explore the implications of it.

Yeah, the grandfather paradox is a problem, as is the First Law of Thermodynamics, which you alluded to. Though, I’ve heard physicists speculate that it might well turn out that intra-universe time travel is possible, but always works out such that the grandfather paradox is obviated somehow. It would have to entail a universe in which past, present and future all exist simultaneously in order to not violate conservation of energy, though. Unless there were some other factor to cancel out the additional Marty McFly added to the system, i.e. future Marty.

6. Spock Prime’s journey seemingly into the past could be consistent with the implications of “1,” “2,” and possibly “3.”

Sure, you could premise the entire movie on either of the other multiverse models, but it’d be better if you tweaked the dialogue a bit and rephrased the “…altered the flow of time…” line.

I realize that not all of these theories have a lot to say about time travel and that basically, we’re just having a bit of fun speculating about how they would work in light of ST09 (and, for that matter, for those playing along at home, Mr. Orci’s longstanding comments that the Prime Universe still exists).

And the entire movie, including the Spock/Nero/Romulus/supernova/Red Matter/Black Hole events which take place in the 24th Century could actually be subsequently interpreted as having occurred in a universe which had split off from the Prime Timeline, if we’re apply MWI to the entire movie. The nature of MWI is that it involves universes constantly popping into existence and then branching off from their antecedents at every quantum event. So, if a writer of unofficial Trek wanted to do a story set in the 24th Century Prime Universe/Timeline involving the planet Romulus (which still exists and has not been destroyed), he could simply interpret the Spock/Nero/Romulus/supernova/Red Matter/Black Hole events from ST09 has having occurred in a timeline (a series of universes) which had branched off from our timeline of interest in Trekdom. In other words, Romulus exploded in an “alternate reality.”

264. Cygnus-X1 - June 16, 2014

God damn, that was long. Sorry, I should not have answered three posts in one.

265. Lee Butterley - June 16, 2014

Looks smart, and I’ll be sure to tune in to the full production, but the focus on starship battles, gravelly voices and doom and gloom sets of my eye-rolling “fanwank” alarm something crazy. It looks amazing, but is it the kind of Star Trek I like?

Hopefully I’m just being a miserablist because it’s Monday morning, and I’ll be proven wrong later.

266. Hat Rick - June 16, 2014

@Cygnus-X1, 263,

Just wondering if one of your postings has gone missing somehow….

267. Disinvited - June 16, 2014

#261. Cygnus-X1 – June 15, 2014

Yes, I was going with time as a dimension just like width or length that somehow we are restricted in traveling along it in one direction.

I believe I recall reading those musings that time is an illusion. It seemed to be based on the idea that it is actually the result of discreet quanta that are called chronons. These create discreet frames of events that were all created simultaneously at the big bang and what we perceive as time solely is the result of our brains sorting and organizing them in a manner similar to the discreet images of a motion picture. Supposedly this “order” is the illusion we call time.

#262. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

Well, being pretty good at math I can point out that there are differences introduced depending on what number system you base everything on. For example, between binary and decimal systems there are common fractions that are finite non-repeating irrational numbers in the decimal system that are quite the opposite in binary,

And I recall scalar mathematics which relies on vectors in which 2+2 doesn’t have to equal 4 or any one other number. There was a time during the cold war in my youth when the CIA had us all shaking in our boots because the Soviets were supposed experts in this branch of mathematics which western heads could supposedly not wrap their heads around properly or so the CIA contended. In those days they’d just slap “scalar” in front of any technology to claim how far ahead of us the “Ruskies” were. Scalar waves, scalar radar, scalar weather controlr, scalar weapons, etc.

268. Cygnus-X1 - June 16, 2014

262. Hat Rick – June 15, 2014

I wonder if there is any reason to presuppose that the flow of time would be similar in all possible universes.

What I have heard cosmologists say is that it might be the same or it might be different, just as the laws of physics might be the same as in our universe or different. As far as I know, there is no reason to presuppose that time would be similar in all universes. We don’t even really know what “time” is in our own universe.

As for logic & math vis-a-vis physics, you’re getting into the question of whether logic and math are discovered or invented. It might well be that if our universe had different physical laws, and things behaved differently, that we’d have originated different math and logic. Maybe the Reflexive Property that A=A would sometimes not be true given different physical laws. This sort of issue is the problem that we have with Quantum Mechanics, for example, where it appears to violate our logical expectations. It may be that we are missing or wrong about a fundamental attribute of our universe and its physics, and this is why QM appears to yield such counter-intuitive observations. Our best efforts at trying to assign logic to these results have left us with an incomprehensible mess that nobody really understands beyond it being a collection of predictable observations. The MWI, for example, deals with the mathematics of QM in a way that tries to make sense of the behavior of the universal wavefunction given our knowledge of the physics of our universe, but the resulting model is obviously counter-intuitive as we don’t see any evidence that would support the idea of fully formed universes popping into existence *poof* myriad times per nanosecond.

269. Cygnus-X1 - June 16, 2014

266. Hat Rick – June 16, 2014

@Cygnus-X1, 263, Just wondering if one of your postings has gone missing somehow….

Yeah, it got sent to the mod queue because it turned out super long. It’s posted now. Scroll up…

270. Cygnus-X1 - June 16, 2014

267. Disinvited – June 16, 2014

Yes, I was going with time as a dimension just like width or length that somehow we are restricted in traveling along it in one direction.

Well, we can travel forward and backward along the spatial dimensions. You can reverse course, travel back to your starting point and have covered zero total distance. Could the same be true with time in on universe vis-a-vis time in another? Through the looking glass….

I believe I recall reading those musings that time is an illusion. It seemed to be based on the idea that it is actually the result of discreet quanta that are called chronons. These create discreet frames of events that were all created simultaneously at the big bang and what we perceive as time solely is the result of our brains sorting and organizing them in a manner similar to the discreet images of a motion picture. Supposedly this “order” is the illusion we call time.

Fascinating. Sounds like chronons are roughly similar to Planck Time units.

271. Hat Rick - June 16, 2014

@Cygnus-X1, 268,

Thanks. I’ll read your posting, 267, which just showed up. I trust this is the one you were referring to.

@Disinvited, 266,

Thanks for that interesting mathematical tidbit. A form of mathematics in which 2+2 does not equal 4 is one with which I would say the vast majority of even educated people are not familiar. It’s intriguing to know that such mathematics exists.

@Cygnus-X1 and @Disinvited,

With regard to the issue of whether math and logic are fundamentally grounded by axioms, I recall reading that the universe is unreasonably explainable by math and logic, in the sense that we don’t have a right to expect that we can know so much of it simply by making calculations (on a computer or on a piece of paper, or in mind-experiments). Of course, this harkens back to the strong anthropic principle, and the fact that we, as biological beings arising from this universe are capable of such insight by virtual of the very fact that we are perceiving and calculating things that, too, themselves developed only as a consequence of having arisen in this universe. A photographic-negative universe, for example, could be so bizarre that an entire new not alone math, but logic, would have to be created.

There’s no easily discernible answer to whether math and logic have fundamentally other forms, it seems to me, because it’s like speculating whether the rules of the World Cup apply to the emotional development of a hitherto undiscovered form of sea life. In fact, it’s even more disparate, contextually, than that, because in the case of differences unintelligible to us, the chasm is closer to being the rules of the World Cup and the random chaos of a thing that is neither dead, nor alive, but potentially in existence (or not), in a realm that may or may not exist. The World Cup would have no purchase in such a realm, and neither would math or logic. And then, as I say, the game is lost.

Perhaps the question is whether our powers of discernment can find the limits of mathematics and logic and see where they end, only to tantalize us with the “math” and “logic” of some other realm of which we know not.

272. Cygnus-X1 - June 16, 2014

270. Hat Rick – June 16, 2014

Thanks. I’ll read your posting, 267, which just showed up. I trust this is the one you were referring to..

Heh, no it should be #263. Now it’s gone again. This happens sometimes. Check back up later in the day. It’s the post in which I responded to three of your posts, so it turned out extremely long.

270. Hat Rick – June 16, 2014

The “anthropic principle” is also how physicists refer to the aforementioned interpretations of the small value for dark energy and the huge number of string dimensions. Those values, the reasoning goes, should make sense within the context of the rest of the universe. And if they’re isolated values in one universe, where no other universes exist with their own values for those things, it doesn’t make sense. An analogy by Brian Greene is that if you checked into a hotel and the room assigned to you were room # 10,001, it wouldn’t make sense unless that hotel had, say, a million rooms. Then, getting #10,001 out of a million wouldn’t seem strange at all. Likewise, the number of possible dimensions in which strings can vibrate is an incomprehensibly large number—I think it’s 10^500. With so many possible dimensions in which strings can vibrate it makes more sense that there would be many other universes each with its own set of dimensions in which its strings vibrate, rather than there being just one universe (ours) with strings vibrating in only 10 out of the 10^500 possible dimensions.

As you might imagine, this line of reasoning is controversial among physicists. But, when added to the other reasons for the existence of a multiverse of some form—particularly the strong Inflation-related observations and measurements—it all adds up to a very compelling case for a multiverse of some kind. And I’d also put MWI in that basket of compelling signs of a multiverse.

273. Hat Rick - June 16, 2014

@Cygnus-X1,

Thanks for your comprehensive responses — much appreciated. I will read them carefully and hope to respond if I can find something interesting to say.

I’m glad you have such an interest in astrophysics and quantum mechanics and have decided to share your knowledge with us.

274. Marja - June 16, 2014

254 Cygnus and 255 Rose,

YES, EXACTLY. I thought it showed incredible hubris on PrimeSpock’s part to try to “fix” a future in which he shouldl have had no input. Wasn’t his initial attempt to help Romulus with Red Matter and his incursion into the alternate universe enough disruption as it was?

Sure, a mindmeld would have revealed AltKirk’s character, but it should also have revealed that AltKirk did not have the familial stability growing up that PrimeKirk had, and so on and so on.

Cygnus, I also agree with your idea that the AltVerse was a “branching off” of the PrimeVerse. I thought that had been established somehow, either in the movie itself or in post-movie discussion by the writers. In other words, the Prime Universe sails on, albeit without its Spock, and all the Trekfans who cannot abide NuTrek can still be happy and play in the original Trek universe. Canon in this “NuVerse” ‘changed’ [as I erroneously put it] when Nero appeared. Perhaps its “destiny” changed.

If such things are even predetermined.

I just found it so odd that Spock, scientist supreme, would make assumptions about “destiny” … handy for the story, yes, but not exactly an adherence to character.

Though Spock has gone mystical on other occasions. “Remember” in WOK, when he planted his katra in McCoy, poor unwitting McCoy.

Ahhh …. maybe the Spock hubris wasn’t new to ST2009.

275. Marja - June 16, 2014

251 paulB,

OK, perhaps, I think the analogy can be interpreted in two ways, but the fact is the Admiral says neither “with” or “by;” the grammatical construction as spoken is just wrong, period.

“… an enemy consumed and committed to our destruction” should be “an Empire that is consumed [BY] and committed TO our destruction …”

“… the greatest challenge LAYING before us …” should be “… the greatest challenge LYING before us … “ or “the greatest challenge before us is to …”

I take your point re: BY and WITH. By and large ;-)

Pleasure doing editing with you!

276. I am not Herbert - June 16, 2014

Spock does not “go mystical…” (insultingly minimizing…) =(

Spock is a Spiritual Adept as ALL Vulcans are… (picture Buddhist monk)

now if you want to say Spock “goes Shamanic”, that would not be far from the mark…

your welcome ;-)

277. I am not Herbert - June 16, 2014

Spock knows Kirk’s destiny because he has witnessed and participated in it… ‘nuf said? =P

278. I am not Herbert - June 16, 2014

your perspective on the katra incident is also incorrectly biased… =(

(Spock had no choice…)(d’uh) =P

…and McCoy was subconsciously more than willing to help. =)

279. Disinvited - June 16, 2014

#276. I am not Herbert – June 16, 2014

Well, maybe not in those instances but I think Spock was definitely being mystical when he blew away McCoy’s query on what it was like being dead.

280. I am not Herbert - June 16, 2014

…please specify?

281. Disinvited - June 16, 2014

#278. I am not Herbert – June 16, 2014

Exactly, claiming McCoy didn’t have a common frame of reference. What does he think being dead in McCoy’s head is? If that’s not sharing a common frame of reference than I don’t know what is.

282. Disinvited - June 16, 2014

#281. Disinvited – June 16, 2014

than=then

283. I am not Herbert - June 16, 2014

Disinvited: glad u agree =)

…but must correct also: “What … being dead in McCoy’s head is?” (non-sequitur)

1. Spirit (Soul or Katra) is immutable. (it does not “die”)

2. “Death” is a condition of the body. (it’s viability ends…)

Spock uses the “vessel”, the “vehicle” of McCoy’s body to stay in the “material world”. McCoy is mostly UNaware of sharing his body with Spock’s consciousness (Katra), but it does emerge occasionally… ;-)

284. I am not Herbert - June 16, 2014

…there really IS some deep symbology in the original trilogy: TMP/TWOK/TSFS ;-)

285. Marja - June 17, 2014

277 Herbert, Spock knows Kirk’s destiny in the PrimeVerse; he does NOT know Kirk’s destiny in the AltVerse [unless, in addition to being a shaman, he is also a seer of the future]. Therefore [as a shaman] he should know better than to impose HIS history in a world that is still unfolding.

278, You are making two assumptions. First, that Spock “had no choice.” Vulcans die all the time, presumably, do they always find a handy receptacle for their katra before they complete their checkout? Heroes die with no expectation of reviving. Dramatically speaking the revivals of TOS Spock and AltKirk are equally disrespectful of this idea, although they are rewarding to the audience who want to see these characters continue. Your second assumption, that McCoy was “subconsciously willing to help” is uncomfortably close to something else entirely.

In fanon, I’m not sure if it’s established in canon, there is a crime in Vulcan society, one of the worst crimes imaginable, second to murder. it is mind rape.

You will notice that in almost every circumstance Spock asks a person if he might contact their mind; in other words, he seeks their permission first. Their conscious permission. There are moments when he accesses the minds of enemies or the insane or others to get a clue as to how the Enterprise crew need to proceed, but I’m still uncomfortable with his use of McCoy’s head as a parking place.

I am somewhat familiar with Buddhist ideas, and I do not think a Buddhist spiritual practitioner would do this. Vulcan mileage may vary.

286. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

Kirk’s destiny is the same in both “universes”… (d’uh)

Spock had no time to “ask McCoy’s permission”… (d’uh)

Spock’s “death” is BY NO MEANS typical, for Vulcans or otherwise… (d’uh)

McCoy was NOT “mind-raped”, LOL! this is YOUR incorrectly biased MIS-CONCEPTION (I.E. you are mistaken, or desperate)

McCoy IS A DOCTOR. Why would he deny Spock’s need for Katra preservation? (d’uh)

Why would Spock simply “give up” and “die”? (d’uh)

you are attempting to use illogic to “win” your argument… =(

287. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

and you are distorting my “Buddhist monk” description… =(

288. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

equating Spock’s resurrection with nu-kirks is just plain RETARDED (sorry)

perhaps they both violate your (personal) world-view?? ;-)

289. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

enough WASTED time… =(

…going to watch Wilfred Season 3 on Netflix! =)

290. Disinvited - June 17, 2014

#286. I am not Herbert – June 17, 2014

Sorry, have to disagree with you here. Performing a mind meld, which Spock himself has described on numerous occasions as something extremely personal, on someone that he just rendered unconscious via his patented neck pinch, gave no opportunity for assent or consent. In that respect, he committed mind meld rape.

He then, later on in the series of films, very clearly mind melded with Valeris — definitely without her consent.

291. Keachick (Rose) - June 17, 2014

I am not Herbert –

“Kirk’s destiny is the same in both “universes”… (d’uh)”

Who says, other than yourself? If “destiny” is defined as everything that happens to a person, then clearly it is not the same, starting with alt. Kirk losing his father on the day of his birth and so on…

“Spock uses the “vessel”, the “vehicle” of McCoy’s body to stay in the “material world”. McCoy is mostly UNaware of sharing his body with Spock’s consciousness (Katra), but it does emerge occasionally… ;-)”

What’s so funny – (re use of emoticon here)? That “vessel”, “vehicle” belonging to Dr McCoy was an integrated being and whether or not, Dr McCoy was fully aware of Spock’s consciousness (Katra), the presence was causing Dr McCoy a lot of psychological pain/confusion. Sarek noted that “BOTH are in pain”.

“Why would Spock simply “give up” and “die”? (d’uh)”

Why would *anyone simply “give up” and “die”? That’s not the point.

The only person distorting a “Buddhist monk” description is YOU, I am not Herbert.

*Excluding those actively seeking euthanasia – which has nothing to do with any of the characters.

292. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

Dear Marja,

Please accept my humble apology for using “d’uh” to try to emphasize my points… when i do that, what i’m really saying is: i’m feeling frustrated and arrogant… and probably, superior… =( it’s hurtful mockery, and wrong =(

i’m sorry ;-(

i offer my sincere apology and ask your forgiveness <3

293. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

Disinvited: …yeah…. no.

it’s katra transfer, NOT mind-meld…

…and it’s a do-or-die situation… there is no violence or mal-intent or trauma or sexual predation…

citing Valeris is distraction…

you people are INTENT on MAKING it so-called rape! (What a sick joke…) =(

…just give it up! …you really don’t know what you are talking about! LOL!

294. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

Rose:

I’m not going to waste my time… ur wrong, except for your Sarek quote (which you misinterpret)

the rest is BS semantics and distraction… your usual stuff… not worth it…

my wink ;-) was happiness to pass on knowledge… ;-)

ur welcome ;-)

295. Keachick (Rose) - June 17, 2014

#285 – “Heroes die with no expectation of reviving.”

Yes, that is true in the case of Kirk (STID), but not so with Spock (TWOK). This is about character and what happens after, ie that in Kirk’s case, this Khan superblood does the “trick”, is irrelevant to this discussion. It is about character expectation.

Prime Spock had an ace – downloading his Katra into the closest human he could find – fortunately for him, Dr McCoy. James T Kirk had no such ace, then or now.

There is a significant difference between doing an ordinary mind-meld, as both Spocks have done (with or without permission), and placing a Vulcan soul, spirit, Katra inside the mind of another being, especially when that person has never been given any preparation for such an event, eg Dr McCoy, nor been able to give (informed) consent.

If I am not Herbert is going to bring Buddhism into this, then the more truly *Buddhist* could be Kirk, in that his actions were more selfless than Spock’s, given Spock ace.

296. Keachick (Rose) - June 17, 2014

#294 – I have not misinterpreted anything.

You can get stuffed. What’s more, you are no more knowledgeable than anyone else. Frankly, you give me the creeps!

297. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

…i think this is at least the third time i’ve been sucked into explaining this to you “Spock is a mind-rapist!” people… =(

…you REALLY are looking stupid and creepy pushing this crap! stop it! =(

IT’S RIDICULOUSLY ABSURD!!! =(

298. Keachick (Rose) - June 17, 2014

Spock is not a mind-rapist, except when, at a particular time in Vulcan’s history, any form of mind-meld undertaken was considered mind-rape and therefore a crime.

Doing what Spock did to Dr McCoy in TWOK lies in the “grey” area, legally and morally, and if you cannot see that, I am not Herbert, then it is you who is being creepy.

In the Fringe TV series, a similar scenario was played out when William Bell (played by Leonard Nimoy) gave Olivia Dunham a cup of tea which contained Bell’s “soul magnets”. When Bell did die (to his physical body), his soul got transferred into Olivia’s mind via the soul magnets and then got awakened…

It is irrelevant just how the transfer got made. What is relevant is the fact that both Dr McCoy and Olivia’s minds were forced to share “space” with another. William Bell’s attitude was extremely arrogant and didn’t see why he had to “die”…

I’ll have to find the season and episode number…

299. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

don’t bother… IT’S IRRELEVANT! Fringe, now?? Ahmed IS RIGHT! =(

(ANOTHER(!) one of those “why-do-i-bother?”s!!) MAKE IT STOP!!! =O

300. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

Note to self: DO NOT BE TROLLED!!! (d’uh!) =P

301. Marja - June 17, 2014

295 Rose, “Yes, that is true in the case of Kirk (STID), but not so with Spock (TWOK). This is about character and what happens after, ie that in Kirk’s case, this Khan superblood does the “trick”, is irrelevant to this discussion. It is about character expectation. … Prime Spock had an ace – downloading his Katra into the closest human he could find – fortunately for him, Dr McCoy. James T Kirk had no such ace, then or now.”

Indeed, and in retrospect [Kirk's youth, the fact that he's getting the hang of being a captain, that he's just begun a true friendship with Spock], Kirk’s death, of the two, is a little more heartbreaking.

The handy receptacle for TOS Spock does [in retrospect] take away from the drama, BUT in 1982 we knew no such thing, and could only surmise that Spock might be leaving McCoy gentle memories of friendship so he and Kirk wouldn’t feel such loss. But they had all been together for nearly twenty years, had experiences, adventures, saved each other, been friends, so — again, in retrospect, and being old and wise in my years now — the loss is one to be expected.

It doesn’t take away from Spock’s heroism by any means — until we find out in STIII that he gave McCoy a little katra surprise.

So, of the two sacrificial deaths, in the instance, they are almost equal; afterward [by the end of the movie/by the next movie] they are the same — resolved! Because, Star Trek magic!

[I, for one, am glad they are; Spock gets to kick around for a while, and young Kirk is back, too!]

302. Keachick (Rose) - June 17, 2014

Yes, I am not Herbert, make it stop. You have the power, being the Adept that you so clearly think that you are…if you do it right, you might also realize that the episode in Fringe that I mentioned is not irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Then again, you don’t like me, Rose, because I actually know a little about Buddhism etc and question your knowledge and understanding, with good reason.
For example, you seem not to understand that being an Adept is not necessarily synonymous with being Enlightened. Indeed, an Adept might well be terribly deluded, which can cause that individual to become rather dangerous in thought and deed.

I won’t let you “lord it” over others

303. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

rose: ur level of assumption is outrageous! pure blatherings!

marja: it doesn’t detract from Spock’s heroism IN ANY WAY!

“star trek magic” is the opinion of a SMALL MIND… =(

(…and continues to hint at your SHALLOWLY LIMITED “world-view”)

McCoy was not merely the closest, he was CHOSEN!! GHAGH!!!

MAKE IT STOP!!! =(

304. Marja - June 17, 2014

303 Herbert, Wow! And you, such a spiritual guy!

I have neither a small mind nor a shallowly limited world view.

Re-read my post, I didn’t say it detracted from Spock’s heroism in the instance.

Our opinions obviously differ on Vulcan mysticism/spiritual practice.

And I suspect your opinion differs vastly from most Buddhists as well.

In the words of another spiritual Avatar, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

305. I am not Herbert - June 17, 2014

Marja: “…UNTIL we find out in STIII that he gave McCoy a little katra surprise.” (?)

that saying has been corrupted… the correct version is:

Judge not FALSELY, ‘lest ye be judged FALSELY… ;-)

(you’re assuming a bit there too…) ;-)

306. Disinvited - June 17, 2014

#305. I am not Herbert – June 17, 2014

In the episode, THE CHANGELING, Spock tells Kirk that the probe, NOMAD, has an almost human-like stubbornness that he is not going to succeed in getting around to get Kirk the information that Kirk seeks. Spock suggests he be allowed to try a radical approach: a mind meld. Kirk orders NOMAD to allow it describing it as “a form of communication”.

If no “communication” occurred when in STII when Spock touched McCoy in a usual mind meld gesture and said “Remember.”, then how was it that McCoy could repeat the phrase in STIII?

Also, director Nimoy has likened what Spock did to McCoy on several occasions as equivalent to an ancient Hebraic legend of possession by an evil spirit. If the director himself didn’t direct and had Kelley perform the katra scenes in STIII with the idea of a guiltless act in his mind, where are you getting the divine grace of it in your interpretation?

307. Keachick (Rose) - June 18, 2014

I don’t think that Spock had any bad/evil intent when he gave Dr McCoy his Katra, however the repercussions on McCoy were not that good, as Star Trek III showed. William Bell did the same to Olivia in Fringe and despite his stated intentions, Olivia did not do so well either. In both cases, what Spock and, more especially, William Bell did were violations. Neither gave explanation nor gained permission from their very alive, sentient *receptacles*.

Spock had no way of knowing if Dr McCoy or anyone else would understand what needed to happen, especially since he never discussed these matters with anyone, including Jim Kirk or Bones McCoy. Once again, Spock proved himself to be a irresponsible and reckless individual.

These examples are different from a mere mind-meld, which is temporary in nature. Prime Spock’s brief mind-meld with the younger alt. Kirk cannot be compared with “downloading” a katra into another being’s mind.

@I am not Herbert – People like myself, Marja and Disinvited are attempting to conduct a thoughtful discussion on these matters, but as soon as I (or others) write something that, you I am not Herbert, either don’t understand or agree, you make the interaction rude and personal, referring to posters as “RETARDED”, “small minded”, “pure blatherings”, “SHALLOWLY LIMITED world view” and “trolls” and other putdowns.

I, for one, am sick of your insults.

308. Keachick (Rose) - June 18, 2014

“Spock is a Spiritual Adept as ALL Vulcans are… (picture Buddhist monk)”

Since when? Adept at what? An Adept is someone who is well practiced, usually in some form of religious/spiritual discipline. I assume you mean that Spock has the ability to mind-meld. That does not necessarily make him more spiritually aware or enlightened than another. It just means that he has developed certain natural mental abilities that many, even within Vulcan, have not inherited.

309. Keachick (Rose) - June 18, 2014

I also meant to write that the only poster who has used the term “mind rape” has been I am not Herbert.

No one has referred to either mind-meld or Katra transfer as “mind-rape”, however, both practices can have unfortunate, even serious, repercussions for some people.

310. Who cares - June 18, 2014

@307. Keachick. Did you forget where Spock was and what he was doing when we first saw him in STTMP? Spock was living in a Vulcan monastery and pursuing the path to Kholinahr, the purging of all emotion, which in and of itself makes him an adept in Vulcan spiritual matters. It takes great discipline and dedication to undergo Kholinahr, at least the equal of anything in Buddism. Comparing Vulcan philosphy to Buddism is quite an apt comparison actually.

311. Who cares - June 18, 2014

PS. I absolutely hate agreeing even partially with I am not Herbert but like they say even a broken clock is right twice a day.

312. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

Disinvited: yes, it is “similar” to “possession”, but there NO EVIL intention or effect!

“communication” is semantics. There is no “interaction”. “Data” is downloaded to be “remembered” in the form of Spock’s Katra.

Clear it up any??

Who cares: “Comparing Vulcan philosophy [sic] to Buddhism is quite an apt comparison actually.”

THANK YOU!! =)

Who cares: “…even a broken clock is right twice a day.”

…yeah, i’m just a monkey bangin’ on a keyboard… ;-)

Rose: you continue to come off as ignorant and belligerently polarized…

I’m done banging my head against you thick brick walls… =(

313. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

Rose: “…the repercussions on McCoy were not that good…”

I suspect that what has you concerned, is when Spock’s consciousness emerges, it has the effect of making McCoy appear to be psychotic to the observer who does not understand, and is therefore overly concerned.

Did McCoy have any complaints about being “violated”? NO.

Was he grateful and honored to have the opportunity to help? YES.

Clear it up any??

SEE the TRUTH and LOGIC. Let go of BIASED PRECONCEPTION!

314. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

FYI: ALL “PSYCHIC PHENOMENON” IS SPIRITUAL IN NATURE!

Spock’s (and ALL Vulcans) abilities are cultivated through spiritual discipline!

WAKE UP!!

315. Disinvited - June 18, 2014

#313. I am not Herbert – June 18, 2014

“Did McCoy have any complaints about being “violated”?” — I am not Herbert

Thanks that question. It reminded me that in the following exchange Kirk identifies that McCoy IS suffering, that it is from a “Vulcan mind meld”, and treats him for it. McCoy clearly indicates in his response that he his none too happy about it and COMPLAINS about it being revenge.

KIRK
Lexorin.

McCOY
Lexorin?! What for?

KIRK
You’re suffering from a Vulcan
mind meld, Doctor.

McCOY
… Spock?!

KIRK
That’s right.

McCOY
… That green blooded son of a
bitch!… It’s his revenge for all
the arguments he lost…

316. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

…also, this is exactly WHY boborci committed genocide on Vulcan! =(

317. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

the “treatment” is a set-up for McCoy’s HUMOROUSLY indignant reply…

you have proven the usual Kirk-Spock-McCoy humor pattern. ;-)

BUT, you do show the SEMANTICAL(?) if not humorous, use of “mind-meld” by Kirk.

“mind-meld” is the GENERIC term for Vulcan “PSYCHIC WORKINGS”

One COULD say that KATRA TRANSFER is achieved THROUGH “mind-melding”… (it’s a misnomer, but let’s keep going…)

But as I say, “mind-meld” here is used in the GENERIC form, NOT in the specific way(s) that are suggested…

now, if you are looking for victory through semantics… i grant you a partial ;-)

318. Keachick (Rose) - June 18, 2014

#310 – Thank you, Who Cares. I wonder why I am not Herbert did not politely remind me of that fact, instead of berating me and calling me and others *names*, as he has done since this discussion began.

Yes, of course, prime Spock was an Adept, as in he regularly practiced Vulcan meditation. So what? So is the practice involved in becoming a ballet dancer and maintaining those specialized skills – it also requires concentration and considerable awareness and integration of body and mind. Somehow, according to I am not Herbert, this adeptness that this Spock is supposed to have is seen as making Spock better in every way, a seer, an Enlightened person, which means that what he did to Dr McCoy should be automatically seen as sacrosanct and above question. Well – No – it is not above question.

Dr McCoy did not know that it was possible for a vulcan to transfer his (higher) consciousness (knowledge and mental abilities) into the mind of another, therefore there could be no willingness on McCoy’s part, conscious and unconscious. As it was, McCoy had no idea what was happening to him and “both are in pain” – Sarek. Sure, there was no doubt a conscious, subconscious desire on McCoy’s part to help Spock any way he could, but obviously having that done was not what he had in mind. McCoy had no choice but *help*.

If I am not Herbert wants to talk in Buddhist terms, what both these characters, P-Spock and William Bell (who was worse) did was to NOT “abstain from taking the not given” – second Precept.

BTW, I am not Herbert, said much the same thing William Bell posed when Bell was asked to vacate Olivia’s psyche – “Why would Spock simply “give up” and “die”? (d’uh)”. Bell had already died physically and his psychic presence in Olivia’s mind began causing big problems for Olivia, but that did not seem to overly concern Bell, just so long as he could continue *living*.
Honestly, what does that say about I am not Herbert?…whoa…

#277 – P-Spock had entered a similar but alternate universe, so he did not know what alt.Kirk’s destiny would be. As I said, in my earlier “blathering”, I noted that *destiny* was different from literally day 1 of alt.Kirk’s life.

319. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

…under NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES your concerns are somewhat valid =P

May I *politely remind you* that they were in a bit of a “situation”, shall we say? (you earn a “d’uh”) =(

320. Keachick (Rose) - June 18, 2014

#317 – You babble about mind-meld and katra transfer as if you have some intimate knowledge of these two Vulcan phenomena. This is all made up stuff.

Yes, there may be real world similarities, as in what Leonard Nimoy referred to as an ancient Hebraic belief of a person’s mind being possessed by evil spirits, but that is as far as it probably goes. However, the concept does pose some interesting discussion, one of which is an ethical/moral one.

In the Star Trek world, Kirk’s “mind-meld” is probably a fairly accurate description as in the two minds need to meld in order for the katra to pass from one mind to another. The consequences of having a katra in the mind of another is more far reaching than a simple, ordinary mind-meld that we have seen both Spocks perform.

321. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

don’t use “P-Spock”. it’s disrespectful. =(

it’s Spock or nu-Spock. (alt-Spock is too non-specific)

(mirror-Spock is also a so-called “alt-Spock”)

322. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

Rose: your assumptions continue to astonish… =D

323. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

…you accept demonic possession but, “This is all made up stuff.”(!)

hypocritical AND parochial! (eyebrow raiser!) =D

324. I am not Herbert - June 18, 2014

IN FACT, if anybody is a “P-Spock”… IT’S NU-SPOCK! LOL! =P

325. Dr. Image - June 18, 2014

No complaints! Magnificent. Just fix the damn TNG-era phaser sound and I’ll be happy. Happier…

326. Phil - June 18, 2014

I’m partial to old-Spock. geriatric-Spock works, too, except it’s to close to G-Spock…

327. Marja - June 18, 2014

310 WhoCares, But Spock didn’t complete Kohlinar because of his emotional connection to Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise. He sensed from afar that they were in danger and went to help them. One can assume he completed some levels of training, but who knows how much.

I understand the idea of equating Kohlinar with Zen Buddhism, because both seekers of both paths try to purge the negative influences of “emotion” [Kohlinar] or “attachment” [Zen]. This makes Spock a practitioner of the spiritual Vulcan path, but not necessarily an Adept.

“Adept” is a specific term for a specific level of accomplishment in SOME spiritual paths. I am going to leave it to others to state definitively Spock’s status, since Herbert seems to have some sort of inside information.

328. Marja - June 18, 2014

318 Rose, thank you for stating the Buddhist principle of abstention. That is the one I was trying to think of last night.

It just seems to me that if Spock had discussed this possibility with his friends at some point in their 20 years of friendship, and the thought had been somewhere in the back of McCoy’s mind, I wouldn’t object so heartily. McCoy thought he was going crazy; Kirk was concerned about him; neither strikes me as the result of a thoughtful or considerate action by their friend Spock.

Even a couple of lines in the script would have helped so much; ahh, Monday morning quarterbacking that I am:

McCoy: “Oh my God, Jim. Remember that night we were all stuck on Wrigley’s Pleasure Planet and Spock mentioned that thing about a katra? I was so drunk I thought he was making some kinda Vulcan joke.”

329. Marja - June 18, 2014

326 Phil, Gee, Spock, I often use “Elder Spock” because I hate “Prime Spock” … sounds like “USDA Choice Spock.” Of course that would be a different grade of beefcake.

330. Cygnus-X1 - June 18, 2014

bada-bing! :-)

331. Keachick (Rose) - June 19, 2014

I see that I am not Herbert is his usual self of barely managing to write a complete sentence per post but still managing to criticize me and my posts, without properly explaining his reasons.

#323 – Yes, Vulcan and the associated religious/spiritual, mystical aspect is fiction. Star Trek is fiction. I did not associate the vulcan practice with demon possession (that was your term).

Hypocritical and parochial? How so?

So I am not Herbert is concerned about disrespecting a fictional character because I shorten the description to P as opposed to Prime. It is a shame this same poster cannot show real people posting here as much respect as he seems to expect for a fictional character.

P was just shorthand. I guess I got tired of writing “prime” all the time. I agree that elder Spock is a better and more accurate description of this particular character.

332. Who cares - June 19, 2014

@Marja. The fact that Spock did not attain Kholinahr is the reason why I consider him an Adept. Had he completed Kholinahr he would be beyond Adept, a Master (or some other term), if that makes my position on it clearer.

I do have to disagree with Keachick about one thing though. She equates Kholinahr with simple meditation, but just like Buddism there is a lot more to it, look at how Tuvok was training Kess in her psychokinetic abilities using Vulcan techniques. I believe the telepathic arts are an integral part of the Kholinahr training along with more mundane aspects like meditation.

333. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 19, 2014

178. Keachick

I think we just all saw what just another fan film CAN BE.

Thanks, Continues.

And thank you too, Alec, I want you to know that your efforts are as respected as well.

334. Keachick (Rose) - June 19, 2014

#332 – Meditation is often referred to as the “art of meditation”. Genuine meditation is simplicity itself, as opposed to simplistic.

Meditation could be described as a very effective means, way, for a person to connect his mundane self to the spiritual essence, Buddha nature, Higher Consciousness, Holy Spirit…

Within Buddhism there are many techniques and practices, but all come down to one fundamental practice – the one called the Breath Awareness meditation. The Buddha noted that if a person just gave “right effort” to this *simple* practice, then attaining an Enlightened state of being was just as possible.
The other meditation practice encouraged is the one that some texts refer to as the Metta Bhavana – translated variously, but my preferred – the development of universal loving kindness. The two practices tend to go hand in hand.

“Mundane” is an actual Buddhist term. It represents ordinary, every day life of an individual, people – their lives being about, guided by, various thoughts, feelings, choices, actions associated with living.

335. Keachick (Rose) - June 19, 2014

My Yoga teacher has a cushion with the words – “Yoga is the path. Yoga is the End”. Yoga is another form of meditation and the words “yoga” could just as easily be substituted for the words “meditation”. It is FUNDAMENTAL.

336. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 19, 2014

I reach, Rose.

337. Who cares - June 19, 2014

@Keachick. OK, I understand your point of view, and why you use the term in that way. Now let me share my point of view. I have practiced meditation for over 20 years, not as part of any religious practice, but as a purely physical practice. I am not Buddist of course, but I respect them and am fascinated by their teachings and practices.

In all of this time I myself have only ever seen the term meditation used to describe a physical act that is a humble tool to use on the path to enlightenment, not equated with enlightenment itself, which is what it feels like to me when you call Kholinahr “Vulcan meditation”.

It was a wholly appropriate use of the term for you, given what you have said is the basis for it, but from my point of view it was somewhat akin to equating a paintbrush with the Mona Lisa if you understand what I mean.

Anyway, it isn’t all that big of a deal, just different points of view

338. Keachick (Rose) - June 19, 2014

Yes, it is a tool, one that I have not used in a while, but need to do again.

I guess it has got to do with how you relate to the process. The breath awareness meditation is something you can do anywhere, anytime, simply because you have your breath. It is with you so long as you live.

It has also got to do with the concept of duality that we live in, where separation is a given. In the *mundane* sense, meditation is seen as a tool used in order to become enlightened, which means that you have (1) meditation and (2) enlightenment. However, when duality is cut through, dispensed with (for want of better terms), then your meditation/actions, thoughts, feelings are enlightenment. I am not explaining this so well, but then I am a novice. Millions of words have been written and spoken on this, along with Zen koans, you name it…for some reason, the symbol/statue of the Laughing Buddha comes to mind…whatever…sigh…:)

339. Marja - June 19, 2014

I think there are views of meditation which encompass several of these viewpoints expressed.

– “Sitting meditation”: taking time during the day to do nothing else but concentrate on breath or spirit or a flame, or one of my favorites, listening to everything [birds, cars, people, all passing]. After the meditation period is over the person goes about his/her “mundane” life, albeit with a calmer mind and aspect than others who don’t meditate.

– Life as meditation: every step in life is done as a meditative act. It seems Thich Nat Hanh fits into this category; his primary focus is breathing meditation but he also speaks of walking meditatively, listening and eating and performing the other functions of life in a meditative mindset.

– Retreat: meditation intensive, taking oneself “out of the world” to do everything in a meditative atmosphere, then return to “the mundane world.” After a number of these one becomes more adept, and may seek to study full-time.

– Study: at a center for Buddhist studies or the Vulcan equivalent [say, seeking/studying Kohlinar].

Generally it seems that Masters have done formal Study under other masters, but Siddartha had neither and yet, enlightened, became the Buddha.

340. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 20, 2014

But what happens when you pop out of your body?!

What’s that?

341. Keachick (Rose) - June 20, 2014

They call that astral projection.

342. dmduncan - June 20, 2014

285. Marja – June 17, 2014

277 Herbert, Spock knows Kirk’s destiny in the PrimeVerse; he does NOT know Kirk’s destiny in the AltVerse [unless, in addition to being a shaman, he is also a seer of the future]. Therefore [as a shaman] he should know better than to impose HIS history in a world that is still unfolding.

***

Now I haven’t read the Herbie post you are responding to, so I do not mean to give intentional support to whatever he said, but you are thinking of Spock as an alien in his new universe / home, when he is not. If anything he is the father of that new universe, and as I’ve been explaining, this is one of the ways in which the MWI source of the movie bubbles up to the surface. Spock helped create the new universe, he is stuck in it, he can legitimately act as one of its native inhabitants.

He’s not watching it’s actions from afar through binoculars according to some Prime Directive. He’s an inescapable part of the action. Without him it would not have existed that way at all, and there is no alternate universe in MWI for him to go back to.

Well there IS — the prime ‘Verse still exists — but trying to get back to it would merely create another branched off universe, and he would not succeed. He would just end up in yet another branch.

343. dmduncan - June 20, 2014

246: “Finally, MWI does not involve any direct evidence and is simply an “interpretation” of the mysterious behavior of particles.”

***

Okay, Marja, so what Cygnus said here is true but could be considered misleading depending on what you conclude from it.

Quantum Mechanics HAS been successfully tested. String Theory? No. And there are TWO ways to interpret QM. One of those is the Copenhagen Interpretation which violates our common sense notions that a thing can both be in a given state (alive) and not be (dead) at the same time. Yet this is exactly what the perplexing Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment showed were the implications of the Copenhagen Interpretation.

Now, some people were not comfortable with that prospect and found a way to make QM more “common sense” by NOT requiring things to be in a bizarre state of being and not being at the same time.

The way they found was MWI where every possibility exists in every possible state in its own universe. So, rather than saying the cat was alive and dead in the same space at the same time…

MWI said the cat was alive and dead at the same time in DIFFERENT SPACES, those different spaces being different universes. Poof! Contradiction suddenly gone!

The Copenhagen Interpretation challenges common-sense either-or thinking, while the MWI preserves it.

So far these are the best, most accepted ways of interpreting QM. QM has been tested, but no one knows which interpretation is true. The belief is that ONE of them is, but no one knows which.

But as far out as the MWI is, it’s actually LESS bizarre than the Copenhagen Interpretation, which is literally incomprehensible to the common sense mind.

Not that that means it is false.

To give you an example and possibly shock some folks here, I do not support what I think is untrue, and I am a supporter of the Copenhagen Interpretation, i.e., from the standpoint of what I think is actually true, and not what I see depicted in ST.09. MWI is the best way to understand ST.09, but I think the Copenhagen Interpretation is the best way to understand QM.

See…I don’t have to be a supported of the MWI to see it in the movie and argue for its presence there at a very deep level, or even to enjoy its dramatization of that theory.

And I’ve outgrown the obsessive need to reconcile everything I see in Star Trek with either itself or with “real” science. I was probably 16 the last time I did that. That’s why I always remind fans that we’re watching a movie, and that the best way to understand it is AS a movie, i.e., a dramatic piece of fiction that interprets and takes artistic license with the science which even so remains recognizable.

So when I go to a Star Trek movie, I want to enjoy the universe the writers and moviemakers are putting me into for a little while, and doing that means understanding what they are doing — it doesn’t mean trying to be an angsty 16 year old again, blaming the movie because the writers did not give me a perfect world I could escape from my own into.

344. Keachick (Rose) - June 21, 2014

#342 – “but you are thinking of Spock as an alien in his new universe / home, when he is not. If anything he is the father of that new universe, and as I’ve been explaining, this is one of the ways in which the MWI source of the movie bubbles up to the surface. Spock helped create the new universe, he is stuck in it, he can legitimately act as one of its native inhabitants.”

Nobody is saying that Spock can’t live as others do in this alternate universe. However, he has no idea what his own future will be now, let alone anyone else’s. That’s the point. That is why he should refrain from saying too much of what he knows about what happens to these people, because the future is not set…the past/future changed with Kirk losing his father on the day of his birth. Just how little or how much has impacted long term on Kirk is yet to be seen. The same applies to Spock, Uhura and the other characters as well.

345. dmduncan - June 21, 2014

344. Keachick (Rose) – June 21, 2014

Well you CAN make that “should” argument…and you can also make something different.

All your “shoulds” are based on knowing how those things unfolded in the universe he came from which Spock knows will not unfold the same way in the new one.

If the writers wanted to show what would happen if Spock Prime decided to be a pseudo-reliable prophet of the future, that’s perfectly legitimate story material. It’s all part of the reality of the new universe which Spock is an integral part of by helping to create.

Prime Directive thinking applies to those outside a developing world.

Spock is not an outsider to this universe. He’s an insider. his “interference” is what created it.

Too late to un-interfere. The only logical choice he has is to be fully engaged in the new universe as one if its native inhabitants, and that means acting in a way that he normally would to make events turn out as he believes they should.

And this, in fact, is exactly how he behaves in ST.09 AND in the brief scene he has in STiD.

346. Hat Rick - June 21, 2014

@dmduncan, 343,

Under the Copenhagen Interpretation, the cat is both dead and alive. This contradicts our common-sense perception. But, may I offer to support your analysis, there is no contradiction if there is no perception, am I correct?

Supposing that the cyanide is released, then it is at the moment when the cat starts to decompose, and someone notices, when it becomes of any significance to anyone at all that the cat is dead. Right before that, the cat could be dead or it could be alive. In fact, it is both. Am I correct in this supposition?

Then it seems to me that the supposition that there are at least two worlds (dead versus alive) is superfluous. There will never be a need — or ability — to observe the cat’s continuing to be alive, and therefore there will never be even a need to suppose it. The fact that we are uncertain about which world is the world in which we will observe it is not relevant, and therefore the MWI is also irrelevant.

We “collapse the wave function” when we observe something, yes, but there is no need to posit that something “could have” occurred in another way for a very simple reason: There is no intelligence that exists that observed the same event any other way, since “intelligence” or “sentience” are simply results of an overlay over the actual occurrence. The very making of the conclusion that is drawn as to which result (dead versus alive) obtains, is possible in only one possible universe — the one in which the observation is made. To retroactively speculate that the cat was both alive and dead is nothing more than intellectualizing over something that never existed.

The limits of our observation are not necessarily the portals to infinite worlds.

Thus endeth MWI?

347. Keachick (Rose) - June 21, 2014

Prime Spock did not help create anything. He found himself there and has to adapt to this new timeline, alternate universe, just like anybody else. His *problem* is that he knows too much and is relying on what he knows what happened where he came from and thinks that similar should occur in this (slightly) different time/space.

You are making him appear like an all-knowing outsider, not me or Marja.

348. I am not Herbert - June 21, 2014

…i like you rose… ;-)

…you speak with conviction! =D

(even tho, u don’t know WHAT u r talking about) =P

349. I am not Herbert - June 21, 2014

regrettably, you have joined my list of ignorants to be ignored… sorry… =(

350. dmduncan - June 21, 2014

347. Keachick (Rose) – June 21, 2014

Whatever.

351. dmduncan - June 21, 2014

346. Hat Rick – June 21, 2014

Under the Copenhagen Interpretation, the cat is both dead and alive. This contradicts our common-sense perception. But, may I offer to support your analysis, there is no contradiction if there is no perception, am I correct?

***

There is no contradiction if you suppose that consciousness is not — as science has staked its reputation on it being — a feature of the world it is not important to consider when trying to determine how the world “really” is.

And then yes, MWI is a very clever theory, but unnecessary, which by itself, oddly, STILL doesn’t mean it’s not true.

352. Disinvited - June 21, 2014

#351. dmduncan – June 21, 2014

It’s been a while since I’ve been in a lab but if I recall correctly, in science, for something to be any kind of a “theory” for consideration it has to provide some pathway or mechanism in which it can be proven false. If there’s no way that it provides for observational falsification by providing a prediction that may or may not be observed via experimentation, it isn’t any kind of a theory at all, as far as science is concerned.

353. Who cares - June 21, 2014

@Keachick. Spock Prime created the alternate timeline because he opened the singularity into the past that Nero traveled through. The alternate timeline was created the moment Nero killed Captain Robau and attacked the USS Kelvin, which would have been impossible without the actions of Spock Prime.

354. Who cares - June 21, 2014

@Disinvited. Tell that to the Theory of Relativity, which is utterly impossible for us to test at present, yet is accepted as 100 percent fact by the majority of the scientific community.

355. Disinvited - June 21, 2014

#347. Keachick (Rose) – June 21, 2014

As far as canon goes, this probably won’t resolve anything but in the November 2007 version of the script, I found it interesting that it was scripted that Spock was attempting to use red matter for conventional Prime time travel to buy himself more time to save Romulus when he realized he was too late to save it. Nero misread what Spock was attempting to do as trying to stop the effects of the supernova to save the rest of the Prime universe and was hell-bent on making sure that if Romulus wasn’t spared, no one would be. While in this version Spock is directly responsible for consciously initiating the time travel which ultimately made him the new universe’s creator, Nero was the one who changed its nature by taking actions to shut it down before it could “collapse” the spreading destructive forces of the supernova he erroneously thought Spock was directly attempting.

356. dmduncan - June 21, 2014

352. Disinvited – June 21, 2014

Science requires you to test your explanatory thesis. Your thesis is uncertain, and so you devise means of testing it to prove your thesis is correct. If the outcome is as you predict the test would show, then you are building a case that your thesis is correct. HOWEVER, if you devise a test where it is impossible for the result to be any way other than you predicted, you are rigging the test for the outcome you desire. Therefore, whatever test you devise must realistically allow that if your theory is true, A will happen, and if it is FALSE, B will happen. Anything else and your experiment is an elaborate trick.

So science requires your thesis to be falsifiable, because the aim of science is to separate (to KNOW, to tell apart) the correct theories from the incorrect ones, and if your theory is not falsifiable it cannot do that.

357. Hat Rick - June 21, 2014

@dmduncan, 351,

Thank you for your response. I think I understand.

358. Cygnus-X1 - June 21, 2014

354. Who cares – June 21, 2014

@Disinvited. Tell that to the Theory of Relativity, which is utterly impossible for us to test at present, yet is accepted as 100 percent fact by the majority of the scientific community.

General Relativity has been tested. GPS satellites in Earth orbit must be constantly adjusted because time flows slower closer to the surface of the Earth (where we use the GPS info) than it does in space where the satellite is. Gravity slowing the flow of time was one of the predictions of GR and our satellites bear it out every day when their chronometers slowly creep ahead of our clocks here on Earth.

Another test of GR came in the form of Gravity Probe B, which was an actual experiment designed in the late 50s, early 60s and finally completed a few years ago. The probe was designed to shift in accordance the space around the Earth being warped, another prediction of GR. And the probe, likewise, bore out that prediction.

This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. There are a bunch more tests for both GR and SR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity

359. Cygnus-X1 - June 21, 2014

Quantum Mechanics has been tested insofar as the predictability of the behavior of particles. But, we hit a brick wall after that and have been stuck there for many decades. QM today is basically just a set of predictable behaviors that defy our logical expectations. We have no idea what accounts for the strangeness intrinsic to QM, and it’s still an unresolved paradox.

There are basically two camps when it comes to String Theory. There’s the camp that takes it seriously and believes that it will someday be testable (and this camp contains many if not most of the top particle physicists in the world, like Ed Witten). And there’s the camp that criticizes String Theory as mere philosophy because it can’t be tested and will never be testable. It’s worth noting that String Theory is 40-50 years younger than Quantum Mechanics.

I was watching the final episode of the new Cosmos last night, and while Neil DeGrasse Tyson was talking about dark matter, I had the following thought: Maybe the gravitational attraction that we refer to as “dark matter” is actually gravity from a parallel Brane Universe affecting matter in our universe. I’ve heard physicists talk about this notion of gravity from parallel Brane Universes leaking onto ours, but I’ve never heard it linked to dark matter. Just a thought.

360. Hat Rick - June 22, 2014

@Cygnus-X1, 359,

This is way beyond what I can independently understand, but the Wikipedia article on “Action at a Distance,” in the “Quantum Mechanics” section, discusses the implications of EFR-type investigation for the MWI theory.

“Non-standard interpretations of quantum mechanics vary in their response to the EPR-type experiments. The Bohm interpretation gives an explanation based on nonlocal hidden variables for the correlations seen in entanglement. Many advocates of the many-worlds interpretation argue that it can explain these correlations in a way that does not require a violation of locality, by allowing measurements to have non-unique outcomes.”

361. I am not Herbert - June 22, 2014

Cygnus-X1: you continue to impress… =)

you may be interested in the The Reciprocal System by Dewey B. Larson…

http://spiritualscience.net.au/resources/dewey-b-larson-the-reciprocal-system-theory.html

362. I am not Herbert - June 22, 2014

dmduncan: your POV is also quite valid… =)

RS2 THEORY

Over the past 22 years, LARSON’s Reciprocal System Theory has been extended by others to a more advanced version (RS2 … visit the RS2Theory Website) that offers the potential to incorporate metaphysical concepts, consciousness, and a scientific interpretation of LIFE and its manifestation process. Such a system may enable a more holistic view of Science that extends across the physical and the non-physical realms, and expands our awareness and knowledge of the workings of the Universe, Life and All Things. A great repository of information on the RS2 Recoprocal System Theory (2nd Generation) is available on the RS2 Forum at: Forum.RS2Theory.org.

LARSON’s Reciprocal System Theory contends that:

Because the concepts of space, time, energy and matter are misconstrued in mainstream science, so are the concepts of gravity, universal forces, atomic structure and particle physics.

The red-shift observed in distant galaxies can be explained without the need for hypothetical inventive concepts such as the Big Bang, the Expanding Universe, Dark Energy, Dark Matter, and Black Holes.

It is not necessary to introduce the entire area of particle physics and sub-atomic particle structure into Science. This is totally unnecessary as all properties of atoms can be measured and explained in terms of their multidimensional vibrational properties without the need for inventive constructs that postulate the existence of many forms of elementary and exotic particles and forces within atoms.

The worldview of the evolution of stellar systems is the reverse of what the Reciprocal System predicts, reinforcing the view that the Universe is paradoxical in nature and nothing is as it seems until we “see” through the veils of perception that hide the Universe’s true nature from our view.

There is no need for higher dimensional mathematics or separate laws and fields of science to explain quantum and cosmological phenomena, or the complexity they introduce in interpreting their the maths in a way that has meaning in reality.

Black holes are an artifact of singularities in mathematical theories and invalid theoretical constructs of how nature works on the very very small and very very large scales, etc.

From the few short paragraphs above and the more detailed exposition that follows, it is clear that science and other areas of human endeavor may be limited in validity and completeness, not necessarily by design or desire, but by the limited perception that we all have (scientists included) in interpreting and understanding things and processes when only partial knowledge of their workings is able to be perceived. Our research highlights the need for a fresh look at underlying assumptions and even the conceptual validity of such things as space, time, energy and matter, as embraced by current science. Modern science does not know or accept what consciousness really is and excludes it and the roles it plays in explaining the workings of the Universe (seen and unseen).

363. Who cares - June 22, 2014

@Cygnus. Until you can prove to me with an actual ship in real space that FTL is impossible or results in time dilation they you have not proved the theory. For the record I think Einstein was high when he came up with that one.

364. Keachick (Rose) - June 22, 2014

Spock did not consciously initiate time travel. This was an *unexpected side effect coming from using red matter in order to destroy the supernova. When the Narada at the end of the film was destroyed using red matter, no time travel followed, nor did the use of red matter to destroy Vulcan bring about time travel.

*I did read a plausible explanation way back given by a poster on the ST09 IMDb message board.

Just because someone creates/brings about something, someone, does not mean that they have complete control or know that future. Ask any parent!

You guys are being distracted by various scientific theory and not seeing the reality of prime Spock’s position as well as those who have grown up in what we know as an alternate universe, something that Kirk et al know nothing about, until this other, older Spock told him. The truth is that this Kirk et al still have to live in the universe they know and make decisions based on these factors. What his other, older self did or did not do is IRRELEVANT!

365. I am not Herbert - June 22, 2014

…am i seeing the treja-vu loop continuing? but on a more positive polarity? ;-)

have we done this before? and again? ;-)

366. I am not Herbert - June 22, 2014

conventional so-called “FTL” is infantile in it’s conception… really is a d’uh…

there are MUCH better ways… ;-)

367. I am not Herbert - June 22, 2014

Rose: in my mind, u r a Klingon ;-D

368. Keachick (Rose) - June 22, 2014

I have never seen myself as a Klingon. If that was meant as a compliment, then it is a fail.

369. Marja - June 22, 2014

#364 Rose, You guys are being distracted by various scientific theory and not seeing the reality of prime Spock’s position as well as those who have grown up in what we know as an alternate universe, something that Kirk et al know nothing about, until this other, older Spock told him. The truth is that this Kirk et al still have to live in the universe they know and make decisions based on these factors. What his other, older self did or did not do is IRRELEVANT!

Exactly. And whoever was saying they stopped worrying about this stuff when he was 16, okay, you’ve made the point that we’re all acting like kids.

While some people are supporting the idea that it’s okay for ElderSpock to treat the inhabitants of the NuVerse like kids.

SMDH.

370. Marja - June 22, 2014

I am not sure there is much in Herbert’s mind that is a compliment to any but himself …

371. Cygnus-X1 - June 22, 2014

363. Who cares – June 22, 2014

@Cygnus. Until you can prove to me with an actual ship in real space that FTL is impossible or results in time dilation they you have not proved the theory. For the record I think Einstein was high when he came up with that one.

Well, you can’t prove a negative. You can’t prove that a ship is incapable of a certain performance other than by not being able to construct a ship that can perform in such a way.

As I mentioned, GPS satellites in Earth orbit experience time dilation on a regular basis. We actually have to adjust the clocks on the satellites each month because they creep ahead of Earth-bound clocks.

GR and SR aren’t mathematically all that complicated. I’ve worked through the math (years ago…derived SR step-by-step, but just the broad strokes of GR) and it’s all pretty straightforward. I’m no pro, but the best and brightest all believe it’s solid.

372. HubcapDave - June 22, 2014

Mr. Peters,

Very well made trailer. Has me really looking forward to the full 20 minute short!

As for the haters: haters love to hate; it’s all they know how to do. Me, I’m a lover of all things Trek, Prime and JJverse (BTW, I really like the inclusion of the JJverse type starships, especially their weapons)

The only bit of criticism I have is this: the design of the Ares. I’m not saying it’s a bad looking ship, per se. Rather, I have a hard time looking at it as a ship built strictly as a ship of war. The aesthetics of it don’t quite say “warship” to me. Mainly, it has to do with how far the nacelles extend from the main hull, and the size of their struts makes the ship as a whole look rather delicate.

That having been said, having an excellent cast, beautiful production values, and what seems to be an interesting story to tell, certainly outweighs what is admittedly minor peeve on my part.

373. Who cares - June 23, 2014

@Cygnus. How is it impossible to prove? Build a ship with the capability to accelerate to light speed, then do so, if time dilation happens then the theory is true, if it doesn’t then it isn’t, simple definitive proof. Is it possible at our current level of technological development? No it isn’t, but it will be someday.

374. Cygnus-X1 - June 23, 2014

373. Who cares – June 23, 2014

Oh, is that all? Just build a ship capable of accelerating to light speed?

Firstly, you’ve seen this before: E=MC ^2.

That means that energy is a form of mass, which means that the more energy the ship acquires—the faster that it accelerates—the more massive and heavy the ship becomes, requiring that much more propulsion in order to achieve the same unit of acceleration. By the time the ship nears light speed, it’s so incredibly heavy that all of the fuel in the world won’t be able to boost it up to light speed. Not to mention the fact that fuel has mass and weight, too.

Anyway, here are some of the tests of SR time dilation that have already been done. So, you don’t need the spaceship because we’ve already done the test on much lighter, more manageable objects:

The transverse Doppler effect and consequently time dilation was directly observed for the first time in the Ives–Stilwell experiment (1938). In modern Ives-Stilwell experiments in heavy ion storage rings using saturated spectroscopy, the maximum measured deviation of time dilation from the relativistic prediction has been limited to ≤ 10−8. Other confirmations of time dilation include Mössbauer rotor experiments in which gamma rays were sent from the middle of a rotating disc to a receiver at the edge of the disc, so that the transverse Doppler effect can be evaluated by means of the Mössbauer effect. By measuring the lifetime of muons in the atmosphere and in particle accelerators, the time dilation of moving particles was also verified.

375. Cygnus-X1 - June 23, 2014

BTW, I loved Tony Todd (featured in this Axanar trailer) as Worf’s younger brother, Kurn, in TNG and DS9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BubWrdsUOBY

376. Cygnus-X1 - June 23, 2014

373. Who cares – June 23, 2014

P.S.

BTW, the time dilation experienced by the GPS satellites (vis-a-vis us here on Earth) and the time dilation experienced by particles via a particle accelerator are exactly the same phenomenon. GR shows that acceleration due to gravity is exactly the same as acceleration due to anything else, as far as the physical effect of time dilation (and length contraction) is concerned. So, our having to set back the clocks on the GPS satellites every month due to time dilation is no different than the results of the aforementioned experiments.

I understand that it would be neat to travel very fast and experience time dilation for yourself, but it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon. And, you don’t need it to happen in order to verify that time dilation happens. You can simply go talk to the GPS satellite technicians and they will tell you what they have to do each month because of annoying time dilation.

377. Cygnus-X1 - June 23, 2014

P.P.S. Just to explain that a bit…

Whenever you move on Earth you are constantly fighting acceleration due to the Earth’s gravity at a rate of 9.8 m/s^2. As far as time dilation is concerned, being on Earth is no different than being in outer space in a space ship accelerating at 9.8. m/s^2. If you were on such a ship, your on-board clock would keep exact pace with the clocks here on Earth, because you’d be experiencing the same rate of acceleration as Earth-bound clocks.

378. Disinvited - June 23, 2014

#364. Keachick (Rose) – June 22, 2014

You are forgetting that on screen Kirk tells old Spock that using time travel was “a cheat”. Logically, randomly occurring time travel can’t be a “cheat” because it is just some random event. For it to be a cheat, someone had to make a choice, Kirk on screen identifies that person as Old Spock who doesn’t deny it but rather confesses to learning how to cheat from an old friend. Not being able to fully foresee all the possible ramifications of a choice that we make is very common in the human condition and rarely absolves the chooser from bearing the responsibility for those unforeseen outcomes.

Vulcans are uncertain of their logic when things they love are on the line, but that doesn’t prevent them from making choices nonetheless in attempts to right what they uncertainly perceive as wrongs in regards to same.

379. Paul S - June 25, 2014

Sweet jesus… you folks overthink things!

Looks like a decent story, good acting, and effects…

Should be fun!

I liked it! A lot!

380. Who cares - June 25, 2014

@Cygnus. You are missing my point and getting caught up in technicalities. I will boil it down. 1. I absolutely refuse to believe lightspeed is an absolute limit any more than the speed of sound was an unbreakable limit (and people did believe that once). 2. Until we have direct proof that traveling at or beyond lightspeed is impossible from the crew of a spacecraft capable of actually testing the limit I utterly reject the entire concept of lightspeed being a limit that can’t be exceeded.

381. Cygnus-X1 - June 25, 2014

380. Who cares – June 25, 2014

OK, no one can force you to believe anything.

I’m just letting you know that you don’t need the spacecraft to do the experiment that you’re proposing, as that experiment has already been done with smaller, more manageable things, i.e. particles. And the results of such experiments have conformed to the mathematical prediction of Special Relativity that it takes infinite energy to reach the speed of light: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity

There are, however, ways that things can appear to travel faster than light, like by traveling through warped or folded space or through a wormhole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light

You can cover the distance by taking a short-cut and effectively get to your destination faster than light making the trip through normal space, but your velocity would never actually reach C.

382. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

So you are saying that this is what warp speed is as opposed to light speed. It is about how much and how well space can be warped determines how far one can travel, even if they cannot travel as fast as light speed. In other words, with the warping effect one could get to a destination faster than they would if they could actually travel at light speed.

Have I got it right? Interesting…and possible?

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