Orci Hints At New Setting And Aliens For Next Star Trek + Talks Directing, Kirk Sex, Gay Character & More | TrekMovie.com
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Orci Hints At New Setting And Aliens For Next Star Trek + Talks Directing, Kirk Sex, Gay Character & More June 26, 2014

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman,ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

orci


In a just released podcast interview, Roberto Orci discussed the challenge he faces as a first time director for the next Star Trek movie, dropped some hints for the setting and about new aliens, talked about visiting the set of Star Wars to pick up tips from JJ Abrams, opined on Kirk sex scenes and a gay character and more. See below for highlights and to listen tot he podcast.

Orci Talks About 2016 Star Trek Movie

Geoff Boucher – formerly of the LA Times Hero Complex and Entertainment Weekly – has a great new podcast as part of the Nerdist Network – titled ‘Humans From Earth.’ And Star Trek writer/producer (and soon to be director) Roberto Orci was a guest for the second episode which just went online. It is worth listening to the full interview, which runs about an hour.

TrekMovie has grabbed some of the key quotes from Bob about the upcoming 2016 Star Trek film…

Orci hints at new setting and new aliens

Much has been said about how both the 2009 Star Trek film and 2013’s Star Trek Into Darkness were very Earth-centric. But for the next one, Orci promises that will change…

Orci: In [Into Darkness] they set out finally where the original series started. The first two films – especially the 2009 [Star Trek] – was an origin story. It was about them coming together. So they weren’t the characters they were in the original series. They were growing into them and that continues on in the second movie.  So in this movie they are closer than they are to the original series characters than you have ever seen. They have set off on their five-year mission. So their adventure is going to be in deep space.

And later in the podcast the subject of creature design came up, and in that discussion Orci hinted at new aliens for the next Star Trek…

Orci: We have discussed [the challenges of creature design]. The advantage we have is there is new technology available. Even though I am a fan and I know JJ is a fan of as much practical sets and creature design you can do, we can also augment it with the technology that exists today, CGI. So in a way we have a freedom that is a little bit unexplored. I hope to do that in the next Star Trek.

And later he picked up on that point again when discussing aliens in Star Trek.

Orci: The Horta is actually the villain in the next one – no – they are in deep space now, so lets see what’s out there.

And when a fan asserted that with the new Star Trek films “You have to go back to the Romulans or the Klingons” Orci countered “But wait, why do you have to go back to them?” He went on to say…

Orci: Because this is an alternative universe I think we can choose. I don’t feel the pressure to revisit anyone or not. We are lucky that way, but we have the ability to cherry pick what has become before. It will depend on what serves the story best.

As for his favorite Star Trek aliens, Orci cited The Gorn, Tribbles, Romulans, and Vulcans.

Orci getting tips watching JJ direct Star Wars + talks Wars/Trek rivalry

The podcast was recorded a couple weeks ago shortly before Bob was to fly to the UK to visit the set where JJ Abrams is shooting Star Wars. He said that the trip was motivated to get some mentoring from his long time collaborator JJ Abrams.

Orci: That is why I am going [to visit with JJ Abrams the set of Star Wars Episode VII]. I am going to steal as much wisdom as I can. I am fortunate to have seen a lot of directors direct and I plan on picking all of their brains. Every one of them has a different style and different tricks. And they also have – one of them just sent me ‘Directing for Dummies [laughs]. So that is what you do. This is not a time to not ask for help and not get the cumulative wisdom of all the people I have been lucky enough to see and work with.

Orci later talked about the Star Wars/Star Trek rivalry…

Orci: It is daunting to try and compete with Star Wars, especially they may be released so close to each other. So it certainly motivates me to make it as good as possible. It is interesting to me to have a friend of mine working on the other one, so hopefully it doesn’t turn into I’m the team that Globetrotters play against – the Washington Generals – hopefully it is going to be a little more competitive than that.

Less Kirk Sex? And A Gay Character?

Boucher asked Orci if he might try to ‘escalate’ and try to top the sex scenes with Capt. Kirk from the last two Star Trek films, but Bob indicated Kirk might go in a different direction…

Orci: In the first film [Kirk] is like a college guy might do – or a cadet – finds himself in a dorm, lights come on and she’s green!…In the second film he finds himself with humanoid felines…In the third film he is a little bit more of an adult, so I don’t know.

The subject of introducing a gay character into Star Trek came up and Orci seemed open to the idea. When asked, he responded…

Orci: I would like to see that.

Delving deeper, Bob had this to say about addressing social issues in Star Trek…

Orci: It can be part of a character and not be the whole shebang…It doesn’t’ have to be like South Park, like ‘what have we learned today.’ It can be so normalized that it just exists. I agree it can’t be shoe-horned in. And it is not necessary for it to be the whole point of the thing. It is an ensemble and there are lots of people to represent so no one point of view should hog it.

Promises less secrecy

Much has been said about JJ Abrams penchant for secrecy. When asked if he would follow the same course or would be more open, Orci was hoping to be more transparent…

Orci: I think it is going to be more of a mix. On the one hand you want the story to have surprises. Otherwise why even go to the movie?. On the other hand you want to share enough of it to let people know what they are going to get and what they can expect and what the experience is going to feel like. In terms of behind the scenes, audiences are now so savvy, I think it is kind of fun to be more transparent. And let people into the process of how you are doing things and let them watch you do the movie. You can see behind the scenes without knowing what the context of the scene is or what the story is.

Shatner or other TOS cast?

Bob was also asked if it was possible to – like they have done with Leonard Nimoy – bring back William Shatner or one of the other original series actors. He replied…

Orci: It’s possible. Whatever serves the story….that’s my version of ‘no comment’

There is much more in the podcast including talking about writing collaborations, his history with Trek (including fave episodes and characters), contrasting TOS and TNG, meeting Shatner and Nimoy and much more. Go to Nerdist to listen to the full interview

 

 

Comments

1. I am not Herbert - June 26, 2014

ugh…

2. Don't you have anything good to say? - June 26, 2014

In b4 Harry Ballz makes some negative comment about the article, the writer and the content as per usual

3. I am not Herbert - June 26, 2014

ok… who dropped the door on Harrison’s leg…? fired? killed? involvement?

4. David - June 26, 2014

I have 0 problem with Orci directing. Remember that Star Trek was only JJ’s 2nd ever movie. Plus Bob is a long time Trek fan and JJ never was.

Bob admits he reads fan comments all over the internet so he will have taken on board all the crits for STID.

I’m hopeful. At least he said it’s n Deep Space so it won’t be about Earth this time.

5. Khan - June 26, 2014

Borg

6. Daoud, The Sinfonian - June 26, 2014

I just have my fingers crossed, that Bob is conscientiously setting out to resolve a lot of things we have discussed here the past six years as problems with ST(2209) and STiD. As a “trilogy”, we’ve had “The Future Begins” and now we’ve gone “Into Darkness”… so let’s turn “Beyond the Light” or something….

7. Any_Ca - June 26, 2014

I want Pike back. And I don’t care how. He just MUST be included. Since they made the biggest mistake in killing him off in STID.

8. Picard's Fish - June 26, 2014

cool! very encouraging stuff..

9. Cygnus-X1 - June 26, 2014

7. Any_Ca – June 26, 2014

Star Trek 3: The Search for Pike?

10. Cygnus-X1 - June 26, 2014

But, really it’s…

Star Trek 3: The Search for a Directorial Career

11. Ahmed - June 26, 2014

‘Directing for Dummies’, I guess that is a good start :-)

I like what he said about having less secrecy this time, it is a movie after all, not a Top Secret project like Abrams was treating it.

“Orci: Because this is an alternative universe I think we can choose. I don’t feel the pressure to revisit anyone or not. We are lucky that way, but we have the ability to cherry pick what has become before. It will depend on what serves the story best.”

I think it is best not to revisit anyone or anything from the PU, make it a fresh story.

12. Toonloon - June 26, 2014

I think bob’s movie will be either STIV:TVH or ST:G.

Nobody is better suited to understand Star Trek and what the fans want and nobody is better suited to balance those sometimes very different books.

But does he have panache and the confidence to pull if a tent pole movie?

I’m not enjoying the irony that this movie is STIII just like when they promoted a director from within in the previous franchise.

13. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

“but Bob indicated Kirk might go in a different direction…

Orci: In the first film [Kirk] is like a college guy might do – or a cadet – finds himself in a dorm, lights come on and she’s green!…In the second film he finds himself with humanoid felines…In the third film he is a little bit more of an adult, so I don’t know.”

LOL – what scene, especially in STID – another blink and you miss – those humanoid felines didn’t even get names (although Kirk would have known them). This is not about Kirk being a “little bit more of an adult”. This is about the writers, directors, editors behaving better.

And if anyone wants to liken those Caitians to whores (I have become aware of how many think – not necessarily here but in general), well, whores have names too.

If there was any misogyny on STID, it happened in this scene where Kirk was with those two females and it was abruptly cut without us knowing anymore. It was NOT the other blink and you miss underwear scene. JJ Abrams needs to get this kind of real misogyny sorted!

Please, Bob Orci, indicate that you at least understand what I am getting at here. It is important!!!

14. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

Are the Horta back or not? The Horta are so different, being a silicon-based lifeform etc but they are good folk. Keep them good and wise. I want to see me some of those horta babies and a tribble or two as well…:)

15. Allen Williams - June 26, 2014

I’m ok with a gay character, but don’t make it in your face like Star Trek Phase 2 did. I’ve never seen that amount of making out even in the original series with a straight character so why did they do that with their gay characters? Keep it short, sweet and to the point and it could be a good thing.

16. oded farhi - June 26, 2014

i think its about time Star Trek delivered a film with a great script – strong lines, proper character development, proper raising of deep issues and proper drama. I feel both Of JJ’s films were very shallow and focused more on spectacle than the plot. The fact is that neither films required great acting (which is why Cumberbatch was so under-used) , had original or revolutionary ideas, or made one leave the cinema with many thoughts going through one’s head. That’s something the TV series did very well and has always been Trek’s strength vi-a-vis Star Wars and other sci-fi series.
Take a leaf out of Nolan’s book – blockbsuter films can deal with “heavy issues” in ana dult way and still very very successful. Don’t compromise on the script for the sake of executives or actors looking for an easy ride and the audiences will reward you for it.

17. Admiral Stedman - June 26, 2014

Why does it even need to be a tent pole movie? ST:TWOK was a summer flick but without the big budget. Set the bar low and blow the roof of this mother.

18. Sean C - June 26, 2014

I have a feeling that Bob is going to bring to the Star Trek table what Brad Bird brought to the Mission Impossible table. It will reinvigorate the franchise- call it a hunch, but I feel certain I’ll be right in 2016!

19. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 26, 2014

No worries here. I think bob is really up for this challenge. It may stir him into creating something that we could only hope for. A great trek movie!

The thought of using the Gorn seems very interesting. Especially with the use of some really great looking fx work.

I like what I am reading. Thanks TM Staff!

I think this is going to be great!

20. The Dude - June 26, 2014

You know guys, everyone says “OH STAR TREK THE WRATH OF KHAN WAS THE BEST THING EVER.”…in my mind it was pretty boring.
*shots fired*
Be aware kind people that I am a younger individual and not as deeply rooted in the canon as you all are, so in this case I am all for Orci because in my mind, the news Star Trek movies are by far the best to be released!
*more shots fired*
But I am only an 18 year old Trekkie speaking, who loves action and explosions as should be found in summer blockbusters. I love all the TV series to death, but in terms of the movies, they really were not that engaging to sit through and hour and a half.
Live long and prosper people!

21. AL - June 26, 2014

A part of me would like them to bring in William Shatner. There is a plot device from Star Trek Generations, where Kirk is in the Nexus…well…a copy of him is there. Remember when Picard asks Gunin to go back with him to stop Soran…? she says she can’t because she is already there.

So I take it that the Nexus makes a copy of a person; why can’t they use the Nexus….since space and time has no meaning there. The Nexus…the energy band may be able to transverse other parallel dimensions as well.
The Klingons can use Prime Kirk to draw the Enterprise crew into deep space. well at least this is a clever way to bring William Shatner’s Kirk into the fold.

22. Saykred Cow - June 26, 2014

I think the issue with Into Darkness is the same basic issue with all Star Trek films except for Star Trek 2009.

They were afraid to ‘evolve’ the characters beyond the ‘status quo.’ Just like when you watch the TV show the films SHOULDN’T be episodic. The characters at the end of the film should have some material change in them by the end of the movie. Otherwise, what was the point of the whole movie?

Also Into Darkness is forced to spend a lot of time establishing characters we don’t care about and that we will never see again just so we can care about them in ‘that’ movie.

That what was so great about Star Trek 2009. We saw the character on a growth journey and we saw them authentically become different people by the end of it. Star Trek Into Darkness lied to us and pretended they hadn’t reached that point yet which tuned Kirk into ‘unlikeable’ territory. It was character arc stalling to the point that would make any episode of Smallville proud.

Also nothing in Into Darkness for the female audience. Their was the whole mother aspect of Star Trek 2009. Star Trek needs that. Maybe instead of just dropping Uhura and Spock are in a relationship SHOW events in your movie that push them emotionally into a relationship.

23. Legate Damar - June 26, 2014

So far he sounds better than JJ,

24. Disinvited - June 26, 2014

#14. Keachick (Rose) – June 26, 2014

I can’t wait for the marketing and the hot Hor(cha)ta drinks!

25. Disinvited - June 26, 2014

#23. Legate Damar – June 26, 2014

Agreed.

26. Cygnus-X1 - June 26, 2014

Ugh…I can’t sit through this whole interview.

What does he say about Kirk sex and a gay character?

27. Ahmed - June 26, 2014

@24. Disinvited

“I can’t wait for the marketing and the hot Hor(cha)ta drinks!”

I want Horta warrior toys, complete with laser guns :-)

28. CmdrR - June 26, 2014

Bob,

Tell us a story, sir. Tell us your story.

29. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

#22 – “The characters at the end of the film should have some material change in them by the end of the movie. Otherwise, what was the point of the whole movie?”

The most material change was with Kirk and Spock by the end of the movie. Kirk grew past his need for vengeance and Spock started to really understand the meaning of a friendship. He screamed because he came to realize just how much he had lost and how it was too late…

30. Razorgeist - June 26, 2014

I actually rather like his approach so far.

@#20 The Dude

Yeah Im in full agreement with you.

31. Jack - June 26, 2014

“Orci: In the first film [Kirk] is like a college guy might do – or a cadet – finds himself in a dorm, lights come on and she’s green!”

Sigh.

29. that’s what was supposed to happen, but it didn’t feel earned in the script.

32. Clinton - June 26, 2014

Just waitin’ on 2016 right now. Bring it and and I’ll be happy, Bob!

33. The Keeper - June 26, 2014

I see Khan in our future, thawed out on another planet set on revenge as usual.
Klingons, Romulans and more Tribbles oh my!

Been there done that and repackaged once again.

34. dswynne - June 26, 2014

I swear, for a group of people who are suppose to be “progressive”, you all seem so squeamish about Kirk “bedding” two Cat Girls who are consenting adults. “Star Trek” IS suppose to be set in the future, you know. Besides, as someone on this board had asked, would there be a worse reaction if Uhura was getting out of bed with two dudes? Alas, the world will never know…

35. Platitude - June 26, 2014

Some really promising comments, particularly about how they’ll be out in deep space. I’d love it if we didn’t see much of Earth in the film. And while the younger, more brash Kirk was fun, he had some good character development in Into Darkness and it will be nice to see a more mature Kirk in this next one.

Excited to hear more!

36. Brian - June 26, 2014

What they should have done was let Kirk die in STID. In the upcoming movie, Spock Prime could tell young Spock how James T. Kirk is a great man and he fears a universe without his friend, so he tips young Spock off about the Guardian of Forever. Spock and the crew could then step through the Guardian the moment Nero’s ship emerges from the future. After a huge fight and the loss of some of the Enterprise crew members, Spock sacrifices himself to destroy Nero’s ship – thereby preventing the alternate timeline. This would be a great way to wrap up a trilogy and it would honor the 50th anniversary. The only problem is that it would limit any future movies since that history is already written, so they probably won’t do this.

37. True-Trek Fan - June 26, 2014

I just hope they put Kirk, Spock and McCoy in the centre of what ever story they do, and give us a sense this crew is exploring the final frontier encountering new worlds and civilizations.

38. Nony - June 26, 2014

Well…on the subject of Kirk’s escapades, let’s hope “a little bit more of an adult” equals “maybe stops being the kind of guy who does stuff that, were I in Uhura or Carol’s shoes, would make me feel violated and harassed.” Kirk’s not that guy – it’s fundamental to his character that he’s not that guy. Stop making him that guy, writers.

39. Trekbilly - June 26, 2014

GORN!! GORN!! GORN!!!

Please? :-)

40. Matt - June 26, 2014

One gripe I’ve had with the last 2 films is that the universe didn’t feel like the established Star Trek one. I’d love to see some known alien types popping up, even if just in the back ground, some Andorian, Tellarite, Trill Officers or civilians.

Don’t get me wrong big green bug eyed people or Keenser look cool, but come on show some of the established species!

41. Jonboc - June 26, 2014

Exciting times! The crew starting the 5 year mission….trouble in deep space… There’s a lot of room there for some great, imaginative and fun storytelling.
The other good news is today’s confirmation that the studios don’t give 2 rat’s asses about what fans like Ahmed, Herbert and Oscar think! LoL. but we all knew that anyway, didnt we? :)
Sorry guys, but your broken record of getting your “hate” on, for Bad Robot is really getting old.

42. Bart - June 26, 2014

i am optimistic.

As I’ve said before, my greatest hope for the movie is that somehow they can do an exciting movie without necessarily having an enemy. I know it can be done, i just hope that HE can do it. Trek doesn’t need a baddie to be great, and Bob knows that.

Give us lots of great Kirk/Spock/McCoy moments. These three actors have shown us that they can pull it off.

Slow down the Enterprise. Shoot her with some grace.

Keep SOME lens flare. I really do love the look of the movies.

43. Coryell - June 26, 2014

I thought the first two movies of the re-boot series were near flawless and the third one will follow in their footsteps but in a different manner. In the age of the internet fans nit-pick too much on ANY movie and Star Trek is no exception. We are not the writers, there isn’t much we can control or should be allowed to control. Sure, there will be criticism but the first two movies got more of that than they deserved. Let’s just relax and see what happens.

44. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

#38 – Since when did Kirk harass or violate Uhura or Carol?

I think that it was more like Carol who “violated” Kirk by being bossy and not explaining why she wanted him to turn around. The fact that he did and saw her in her underwear was because she did little, if anything, to actively prevent him from turning towards her, as you naturally do, when you are speaking to someone.

If by Uhura being harassed, you are referring to bar scene in ST09 – well, Uhura clearly said that she was fine and even enjoyed his “talented tongue” banter they had going on, until Cupcake started meddling.

No, Kirk does not harass or violate anyone and that includes women and nor did alt.Kirk.

45. Cygnus-X1 - June 26, 2014

As an update to an article that’s waaaay down there now…

LeVar Burton’s “Reading Rainbow” Fundraiser gets a $1 million hand from friend and Trek fan Seth MacFarlane:

http://news.msn.com/pop-culture/reading-rainbow-gets-hand-from-seth-macfarlane

46. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

Correction: TOS Kirk on occasion did take advantage of a woman (The Games of Triskelion but afterwards, apologized). This alt. Kirk has done no such thing. Hopefully he won’t either.

47. Commodore Adams - June 26, 2014

Sounds refreshing, sounds reaffirming. I wonder how far along the screenplay is.

I do like that he mentioned the Gorn. Klingons are still my fav, I would still love to see more Nu Klingons, but Nu Gorn would be different and fresh. With that hilarious Shatner and Gorn commercial for the Star Trek game, a new Godzilla movie, new Jurassic Park on the way, TMNT, dinobot in the new transformers, are reptilians/amphibians a new trend to capitalize on?

http://wegeekgirls.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/gornzilla.jpg

48. Keachick (Rose) - June 26, 2014

#47 – Gosh, I hope not. I prefer the “deep pan pizza”. I read a Star Trek novel some time back and in the book, it had Captain Kirk refer to his bridge colleague, a small Horta, affectionately as his favourite “deep pan pizza”. I’ve always liked that description.

Gorn are a bore…

49. Mateo - June 26, 2014

I like it. I think he probably always understood what trek fans want, and he seems to be molding the story around it. I really hope there is a gay character so trek is only 20 years behind in that department.

50. Captain Slow - June 27, 2014

The Gorn or Tholians would be awesome. But they’ve already encountered the Gorn in the game and the comics so my money would be on Tholians.

The best thing we learned from the interview is that the movie will take place far from Earth. I want them to go back to how TOS did things where you’re out in the unknown and could encounter anything and have to solve the problems yourself rather than go running home to Starfleet.

I’ve said it before, this could easily turn out to be the best Star Trek movie yet. So far I’ve heard very little to make me nervous about it.

Just please don’t reveal too much. With STID I stopped coming here in December 2012 to avoid spoilers and it was well worth it. Although many people were annoyed by them not saying who Cumberbatch was playing I enjoyed the speculation (although I didn’t enjoy the reveal because I knew there would be endless gloating from those who guessed he was Khan).

51. Admiral_Bumblebee - June 27, 2014

Bring back Shatner! :)
And Nimoy!
And Stewart!

As many of the old cast as possible for as epic an adventure as possible for the 50th anniversary”

52. J - June 27, 2014

Can’t wait to listen to this after work! :)
Not sure if bringing back old cast members to the fold would add to the story and growth to the AOS characters though (as much as it’ll hype up the excitement for the anniversary)… Heck, Shatner could just do something like what Peter Davison did with Doctor Who’s 50th anniversary (and what a terrific hit that was…they’re even making a sequel).

53. Jemini - June 27, 2014

If one thing the writers should learn from ‘star trek into darkness’ and what some of the critics said is that fan-service and pandering to SOME trek fans is a huge mistake.
Some trek fans have an entitlement that is huge like Russia and it surely shows in the way they think they can ‘interact’ with the writers (see Orci when he posted here and people arguing with him like if they were talking with their teen buddy )

I, for one, never had a problem with JJ saying that he didn’t make his movies for the trek fans [only]. I got what they were saying. To me, that was the writers doing their job and doing what they were supposed to do to.
As a matter of fact, there are many people who disliked star trek before or never got the appeal but they liked the reboot and it made them want to watch the other series too.

54. Jemini - June 27, 2014

36. Brian – June 26, 2014
What they should have done was let Kirk die in STID. In the upcoming movie, Spock Prime could tell young Spock how James T. Kirk is a great man and he fears a universe without his friend, so he tips young Spock off about the Guardian of Forever. Spock and the crew could then step through the Guardian the moment Nero’s ship emerges from the future. After a huge fight and the loss of some of the Enterprise crew members, Spock sacrifices himself to destroy Nero’s ship – thereby preventing the alternate timeline. This would be a great way to wrap up a trilogy and it would honor the 50th anniversary. The only problem is that it would limit any future movies since that history is already written, so they probably won’t do this.

I hope you’re kidding.

If I know a thing or two about quantum mechanics then I believe that this reality had always existed parallel and ‘different’ to the tos one, regardless Nero’s influence.
I don’t buy the idea that Nero created this reality but I buy the idea that Spock Prime would somehow think that if this reality is different it’s because of his fault. Doesn’t mean he’s right though.
I think that parallel realities do exist regardless and if people truly have freewill then it takes one single thing done differently, one different choice someone makes, and you end up with a different path. The butterfly effect is not selective either. To me it is quite impossible for this reality to be totally like Spock Prime’s one, regardless Nero.
Bottom line, even without him there would always be other things that would make this reality different in little or large part. It’s the beauty (but it’s also scary, in a way) about the idea of alternate realities because you just know that if such realities exist you might not even be the same person in them all.
Neither the reboot nor TOS would be the ‘real’ reality though because they both are. Who is to establish that it’s this reality being different from the tos one and not the reversed thing? Tos simply was the FIRST reality you were showed but when it comes to AU and parallel universes I don’t think there is a default thing. Of course some star trek fans will think that tos is the right thing and how everything is supposed to be. I, for one, think that when it comes to different reality everything is relative.

anyway…some star trek fans and their obsession that there should be something preventing the AU from happening will never stop being a bit amusing to me. If you don’t like this reality just watch TOS and the old movies
Simon Pegg was right, btw, about some reboot haters just experiencing some bitterness…

55. Janice - June 27, 2014

7. Any_Ca – June 26, 2014

” I want Pike back. And I don’t care how. He just MUST be included. Since they made the biggest mistake in killing him off in STID.”

ABSOLUTELY!!! I couldn’t agree more. I so want Pike( Bruce Greenwood) back and I don’t care how they do it either. I disliked STID because of what they did to Pike. 30 min–3 scenes and he’s gone. I was crushed!

56. Jemini - June 27, 2014

about Kirk, I don’t think he harassed or ‘violated’ (whut?) Uhura or Carol

in the bar scene he was annoying with Uhura because he wouldn’t take the hint and accept she wasn’t interested. In that sense, the scene showed a scenario Uhura probably was used to and that’s why she might have been annoyed with him. She just wanted to have some nice time with her friends and take a drink but because she’s so attractive she might have her free time at a bar constantly ruined by guys who want to make a move on her and don’t accept a no for an answer or who mistake her ‘no’ for flirting when it is just no.
So her reaction to Kirk made sense to me and she had the right to feel annoyed. I think though, that the one who truly was disrespectful towards her was Cupcake.
Uhura was handling the situation very well and she didn’t seem to mind Kirk anymore, at one point, but Cupcake overacted and just decided he needed to ‘save the damsel in distress’ (except she wasn’t and she told him even) and ended up using her just to have a pretext to argue with Kirk and be a bully with his buddies. Moreover, Uhura did repeatedly tell cupcake and the others to stop but they wouldn’t listen to her. They’re the ones that truly ruined her night, not Kirk. I also bet she felt more offended by the guys doing that and ignoring her because they, in a way, ignored her agency and didn’t let her handle the situation the way she wanted.
I think Kirk and Uhura do have a great dynamic and in a way they show that Kirk isn’t so hopeless when it comes to women. Yes, he was attracted to Uhura and a bit bummed when he saw that she was with Spock.. but he seems to respect their relationship and even support it. Just because he couldn’t get in her bed it doesn’t mean that they couldn’t be friends. And they, in fact, are and he cares for her well being and he has gained her respect. I really like the dynamic between kirk, spock and uhura because they show different facets of relationships.
For instance, both Spock and Uhura have their own friendship dynamic with Kirk and thus you have a friendship between two guys but you also have a male/female friendship too. At the same time and in the same dynamic, you have Spock and Uhura as his friends that also have romantic relationship with each other. Sometimes he might find himself in the middle because he cares about them both, at the same time though it’s funny to think that Kirk and Uhura can also be allies ‘against’ Spock sometimes because they might have similar issues with him even if their relationships with him are different in nature.

as for Carol. No way. She just told Kirk to turn around without telling him why and what she was doing behind him. In his shoes, I would have looked behind me too as a reflex because I don’t like talking with people without facing them.
If you ask me, her body language actually suggest that she did want him to look at her and that’s why she didn’t tell him she was undressing (if she did, he wouldn’t have looked IMO) I don’t know if it was intentional from the writers or it was a choice made by the actress, but it came across like that to me.
I also don’t fully believe her story about Chapel that I also think was part of her tease (and might have been inappropriate for her to bring that up to someone that, after all, is her superior officer and they’re not even friends in that point) A lot of people hated that line about Chapel and thought it was sexist and rude towards the original character. I agree that it wasn’t a good moment nor a good ‘homage’ to do to the character (irony).. but I think that, if they want, the writers might have the freedom to bring her back and prove what Carol said if not untrue just half of the story.

57. Trekboi - June 27, 2014

Bob Orci

I am gay & most of my gay friends love Star Trek but I have been pissed for years that there is no sign of homosexuality in the 22nd, 23rd or 24th century.
The implication most homophobic fans smugly assume is that homosexuality was one of the diseases “Cured” to achieve the utopian Star Trek universe.
This is not true & one of Genes last wishes was to deal with it in Star Trek TNG but he died before doing it.

I want to see myself, gays in the future like Whopee Goldberg saw herself & black people in the future in Uhura.

It could easily have been done with one relevant line in “The Outcast” or “Congenator” & I understand it would be harder to find a way in a film which doesn’t deal with those issues but it could be as easy as a character mentioning a partner or a couple or friends that are same sex in some small throwaway line, joke, or comment.
There are a million ways to do it without it having to be a part of the story.

Please Just Make it Happen.
It Matters.

58. Arnold - June 27, 2014

Hope some day Brian Singer (a Trek fan and a great director) is going to direct Star Trek in future.

59. star trackie - June 27, 2014

Yeah, Bob, please don’t shove a gay character into the movie, just to point out that he or she is gay. I don’t have problem with anyone’s sexual orientation…do what you want to do…but that is something that just isn’t obvious on the surface of day to day interaction. It wouldn’t make sense to point it out. Might as well, have crewmembers discussing their religion or lack of it. Story time is too precious in a movie to spend it with scenes that add nothing other than to showcase someone’s sexual preference….unless it is a romantic relationship that truly part of a developing story. And taking this story into the 5 year mission, out into deep space is going to be great Looking forward to aliens, space, peril, danger, action…all the elements that make Star Trek so fun!

60. Capt_Crash74 - June 27, 2014

Since the new films are in an alternate timeline…would it be too early to introduce the Bjorian and Cardassians conflict? Where the Federation stumbles across the initial Cadassian occupation and enslavement of the Bjorian people?
Just a thought…….

61. LogicalLeopard - June 27, 2014

13. Keachick (Rose) – June 26, 2014

LOL – what scene, especially in STID – another blink and you miss – those humanoid felines didn’t even get names (although Kirk would have known them). This is not about Kirk being a “little bit more of an adult”. This is about the writers, directors, editors behaving better.

*************************

Eh, I would differ with that. Kirk is going through a maturity process, and like Orci appears to imply, the writers will have to factor in how much growth Kirk has experienced into how they treat his love life.

***************************
If there was any misogyny on STID, it happened in this scene where Kirk was with those two females and it was abruptly cut without us knowing anymore. It was NOT the other blink and you miss underwear scene. JJ Abrams needs to get this kind of real misogyny sorted!

*****************************

Well, first of all, how is the scene with the feline women misogynistic? We see him in bed with two women, and assume that they have engaged in sexual intercourse. It appeared totally consensual, so why would that be misogynistic? No matter how we may feel about such a situation in our personal moral spectrum, I think for the purposes of a science fiction movie, we have to address the fact that we don’t know how the sexual customs of the feline women work. And we’re kind of also assuming they were both women, but that’s a whoooollle different level of sci-fi there….

However, with the underwear scene, we know that Marcus is a human woman who Kirk looked at WITHOUT HER PERMISSION, and she corrected him. I don’t know if that rises to the level of misogyny, but the gratuitous scene certainly rises to the level of “writers/editors/directors behaving better.” And it’s a lot closer to misogyny than the feline women scene. At least the feline scene serves the purpose of outlining Kirk’s character -he’s a guy who likes to go to bars, listen to the Beastie Boys, and chase women. As far as the Carol Marcus scene, there’s really nothing to take away from that…..did he look on purpose, did he look on accident? Did he “enjoy the view,” was he embarrassed? It doesn’t really tell you anything, and it doesn’t really move forward the Kirk/Marcus story, if there is to be one.

62. Ricky - June 27, 2014

Just saw Star Trek New Voyages, would be nice to see Mirror Universe Shatner in the seat one last time.

63. Trekbilly - June 27, 2014

You’re a bore, Keachick. We’ve seen the Gorn twice ion Star Trek! Twice!! On what basis do you say they are a bore? They are an established race, non-humanoid with a lot of room for development in a movie. Plus, the would be visually interesting!

I guess you’d rather see the Klingons or Romulans for the billionth time…

Talk about boring.

64. LogicalLeopard - June 27, 2014

58. Capt_Crash74 – June 27, 2014
Since the new films are in an alternate timeline…would it be too early to introduce the Bjorian and Cardassians conflict? Where the Federation stumbles across the initial Cadassian occupation and enslavement of the Bjorian people?
Just a thought…….

***********************

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Bajoran/Cardassian conflict is that old. I don’t think it was over 50 years old when DS9 came on. It seemed to be limited to one generation of Bajorans. I would imagine at this time, Cardassia still has resources.

65. Timncc1701 - June 27, 2014

He is saying all the right things, in my opinion fwiw, as a long time TOS fan. I have been wanting to see exploration and new aliens and a return to the character behavior of TOS characters which spawned it all. At last, this one seems to be for TOS fans. We will see. I am wondering if this story arc will lead to a TV series with TOS characters….? Maybe JJ going to Star Wars is addition by subtraction?

66. Corylea - June 27, 2014

I wish you the best of luck, Mr. Orci. A lot of our hopes and dreams go with you, but then, you know that. :-)

67. Tim Messenger - June 27, 2014

So here’s the deal. 2016 is the 50th Anniversary . I think it’s a GOOD thing to have a real fan at the helm of the film. Please salute the original concept….’ To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life an new civilizations….. to boldly go where no man has gone before..” in other words…. a Fresh adventure …. NOT an old story turned inside out. ALSO ….. Please feature Shatner. Nimoy .. Nichols ..Koenig. .Takei… With so many years in between films, this will probably be the last chance to have those left…together again. As for the whole Shatner/ Generations ‘thing’ …. bad movie … best to pretend it never happened . All in all LOTS of Possibilities … All the Best to Bob Or I … Thrusters on Full for 2016 !

68. andre - June 27, 2014

For the Next Film: Explain that this Star Trek is really a parallel universe, a la “Mirror, Mirror”, and not an alternate timeline, a la “Back to the Future”. This would explain all the inconsistencies between the two timelines prior to Nero.

Kirk needs “maturing”, Khan needs to be “fixed” and Pike needs to be “resurrected”.

Go out to the very far edges of the galaxy and meet new aliens.

69. Tim Messenger - June 27, 2014

Sorry. .. That should have ended with ‘ All the Best to Bob Orci ‘

70. TrekMadeMeWonder - June 27, 2014

34. dswynne

Uhura would NEVER be into such excessive hetero human hookups.

71. Rick - June 27, 2014

Go Bob Orci, I’m sure that your movie will be a great success!
Greetings from Italy and BUONA FORTUNA

Ciao Rick

72. Anthony Thompson - June 27, 2014

I like what Bob said here. New worlds; not Earth-centric as many of the Trek movies have been. New aliens, etc. Less obsessive secrecy. Best wishes to you, Bob, in your (and our) new adventure!

73. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#34. dswynne – June 26, 2014

I’m more troubled by its implications as we develop better methods of inter-specie communications right here and now.

74. TUP - June 27, 2014

it is as I feared, that they’d do a “stand alone” film for the 50th Anni when in reality, it calls for an epic adventure spanning the generations. But thats what happens when you blow it creatively with the second movie.

Im glad to see some fresh writers come on board as well.

I still have a concern about Orci’s contradictions in the sense “this is an alternate universe so we can do whatever we want” versus “these will be the characters almost as you remember from TOS”.

75. NX01 - June 27, 2014

Leave the gay character out, we only have 2 hours, to much time for character development, and setting up the situation.
They can’t seem to get the Star Trek part quite right, exploration and such.
Save the gay character for a tv show or something.

Can anyone even tell why anyone wants to see a gay character anyway?
I just want Star Trek, I don’t really care about gay or straight. I just want to see Star Trek.

76. Tom - June 27, 2014

Happy to hear about possibly using Shatner ,Nimoy etc. would be appropo for the 50th anniversary. I am certain anything they do would fit well in their story. Based on the Shatner scene Bob wrote I know it would be done well.

Good Luck to Bob & Team!.

77. Trekbilly - June 27, 2014

” Leave the gay character out, we only have 2 hours, to much time for character development, and setting up the situation. They can’t seem to get the Star Trek part quite right, exploration and such. Save the gay character for a tv show or something. Can anyone even tell why anyone wants to see a gay character anyway? I just want Star Trek, I don’t really care about gay or straight. I just want to see Star Trek.”

***************************

A gay Gorn would be cool!!! ;-) Or would that be a Gayrn?

78. LogicalLeopard - June 27, 2014

75. NX01 – June 27, 2014
Leave the gay character out, we only have 2 hours, to much time for character development, and setting up the situation.
They can’t seem to get the Star Trek part quite right, exploration and such.
Save the gay character for a tv show or something.

Can anyone even tell why anyone wants to see a gay character anyway?
I just want Star Trek, I don’t really care about gay or straight. I just want to see Star Trek.

*************************************

Everyone wants representation, and gay people are the new “minority” so to speak. But the essential problem with a gay character in a movie, over a black character, or Asian character, or Russian character is that it you can’t immediately see that a character is gay, or hear it when they speak with an accent. It deals by definition with sexuality only. You have seven main characters. Their sexuality appears to already be pretty well defined. To alter it would be disingenuous and silly. And to introduce a new character would be pointless and shoehorned, because why would you devote screen time to the relationships of minor characters? I don’t see them doing something like…say if you would have had the scenes with Harewood with a male partner instead of a woman. That’d be a bit too controversial for them, I think. Or if they did something like throw out a reference, like if Darwin dies and Kirk says, “I don’t know where to start….the ship is in disarray, the bad guy is still out there, I have a letter to write to Darwin’s wife….” I think that Orci has a diplomatic response “I would like to see that” doesn’t mean “I want to see that in my movie”

79. Trekbilly - June 27, 2014

Have appear on the Main viewscreen — “Attention Enterprise and Star Trek audience. I am GAY!!! You will see me in this movie for two freakin hours. Just to make sure you know…I’m GAY! Any questions? Proceed with plot.”

80. spooky - June 27, 2014

Sounds good! :D

Oh… here is my fan-boy pitch for the next film after this one! :D

The story takes place 3 years after this upcoming film.

Opening Act:
The Enterprise is charting an unknown star system in the ? region when it intercepts an emergency distress call from the newly established Klingon Empire.

Upon arriving, they encounter other ships (Klingon, Bolian, etc.) either fleeing or attacking in vain; a large cylindrical object that is consuming the Klingon Empire. Several of the planets have been destroyed and much of the Klingon fleets are decimated.

The Enterprise crew quickly gains knowledge about the object while in masked pursuit of the object. They manage to beam Kirk, Bones, Scotty and a few redshirts into its automated internal structure, through baiting a relay probe near the machine’s gaping maw.

The object is ultimately deactivated and towed to the neutral zone for further study.

The Klingon Empire is in disarray and does not lay claim to the object; they are unable to support a fight for it anyway.

This begins the treaties for the Klingon Empire with the Federation.

Mid-point:

The Enterprise and crew return to Earth for a brief respite while the Enterprise is refitted due to its damaged state.

During this time, most of the crew is reassigned to temporary positions on other Star Ships.
Spock however is assigned at the new facility in orbit of Saturn to help study the “Doomsday Machine”.

Kirk spends time on Earth and reconnects with a past love interest. He learns that he is a father; he has a 8 year old son. She is not interested in being with him but will allow him to see his son.

Several weeks pass as the Enterprise is ready to return on its mission; mapping solar systems, gaseous anomalies and meeting and greeting new civilizations.

They proceed on their final week at the very edge of the galaxy between the borders of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant when they are intercepted by 13 small objects that encase the Enterprise in a web-like holding tractor beam.

They are towed to a desolate star system with a pulsar which spins a deadly ray around which renders most ships dead on contact, the web-like structure protects the Enterprise is towed into a large planetoid with a large section blow out.

While there, the shipped is immobilized in a hanger of sorts while the small crafts buzz about.

Onscreen, a strange but familiar creature appears. “A tholian but somewhat different”

Kirk and McCoy are beamed into a cavern and immediately encased in a strange bio-suit to keep them alive. Two 9 foot tall obsidian like jagged rock creatures accompany them on their journey to a large stair structure to an opening which leads them to a large opulent looking city that hangs under a large cavern with a bio-luminescent lake underneath it.

They are in awe;

Their guides push them on to proceed to the gleaming city. On their way… the encounter other different looking rock like creatures, some are crystalline, shimmering gold in appearance which luminescent root systems inside them pulsing with light.

The enter a large cathedral like structure and come upon what looks like a Throne room filled with many other creatures similar to those they have encountered but seated in a circular structure are 13 creatures of varying size and splendor.

The leading Tholian approaches Kirk, it screeches and the sounds are somehow transmitted to Kirk’s bio suit in visions of understanding.

The flashbacks reveal that the Tholians are a dying race which has divided over the centuries.
Once a thriving Sodality from many thousands of years ago, the flashbacks reveal that a dark matter wormhole appeared near their star and caused the destruction of their home world many millennia ago.

The Tholian transmits more information of its history and reasons why it now has reached out to other species after keeping to their selves for centuries.

It does reveal that they have intercepted humans in the past before.

More visions reveal that a rogue Tholian sect broke off many decades ago and then went to look for a revered monster of myth at the heart of a dying world.

It is said, that in the past. A tear in space unleashed a monster that the ancient Tholians derived from.
“A gleaming star that consumed life and energy”

The Tholians explain that this entity has been found and has started to mature… lead by the rogue sect who deem it a god.

Kirk and McCoy are lead away from the Tholian city and back to the Enterprise with the expression of the Tholians fearing the worst.

The Enterprise is taken away from the fury of the pulsar in safety.

Kirk immediately sends for aid to nearby by Federation listening posts.

Kirk then plots a course to intercept this “monster”. A small fleet of 5 Tholian vessels including the commune ship takes him to its last known location.

The Enterprise is nearly destroyed when it does encounter the Crystalline Entity. Their near destruction is avoided thanks to the aid of the Tholians who direct them to the safety of a dark nebula.

The Crystalline Entity has managed to track the signal that Kirk sent out to listening posts nearby and destroyed them.

Final act:
The Federation is now aware of the immediate threat. Kirk contacts Spock on Saturn orbiting facility about the impending attack.

Starfleet foolishly sends a fleet and it is destroyed…

The first Sol System planet attacked is the Mars colony. During the attack, Uhura and Chekov are aboard one of the fleeing ships and witness the entity consuming the planet’s energy systems.

After consuming it… the entity proceeds to Earth. A Vulcan science vessel alerts spock of the attack beginning on Earth.

Spock decides to use the Doomsday Machine as a weapon to fight the Crystalline Entity.
Spock is able to reprogram the machine to trace and detect the signature of the Crystalline Entity and attack it.

The rogue zealot Tholians begin attacking the fleeing ships, the doomsday machine arrives and thus begins a colossal battle with the Crystalline Entity.

Meanwhile, the Enterprise is trying to protect any fleeing ships from Earth from the rogue Tholian attacking ships.

Eventually, the Crystalline Entity collides with the Doomsday Machine and detonates over Earth, rendering its atmosphere ionized.

Carol Marcus’ ship is destroyed when Earth explodes in a fiery flash.

Kirk watches her ship disintegrate in the atmosphere of the planet.

The End.

BRING ON THE HATE! MUAHAHAHAHA :D

81. Captain Slow - June 27, 2014

@ 54 Jemini

There’s a complicated theory I came up with that because in this new universe the events of episodes such as Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever, and Assignment: Earth presumably don’t happen, history is different from the start.

82. TUP - June 27, 2014

The time for a story about a gay character was in the TNG time when they were pushing the envelope with that non-gender species that Riker hooked up with (how would they even do it) or DS9 with the lesbian Dax story.

Now, it would not be cutting edge at all. If they want to make a subtle statement, Im all for it. Just have a character be gay. It doesnt have to be a big thing. It doesnt need its own story. It doesnt have to be what moves the plot or defines the character. At a moment of crisies, he doesnt need to pull from his experiences as a gay man to save the day.

Just have him be gay like Kirk etc is straight.

83. Buzz Cagney - June 27, 2014

So Orci is picking up tips from JarJar? That’s the lens flares sorted then. Now where can we send him to get some hints about getting a decent story in place? That’s been the big problem so far with these new films.

84. Optimistic Doodle - June 27, 2014

“So their adventure is going to be in deep space.”

Deep. Space… ;-)

85. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#82. Buzz Cagney – June 27, 2014

One, definitely hopes that he is savy enough to do just that, but come on, just between us fanboys, don’t you think his primary motivation is to see the Skywalker twins and Han, in the flesh, back in action again if only for a few takes?

86. LogicalLeopard - June 27, 2014

80. spooky – June 27, 2014

That’s a very busy plot, and I’m not sure where the theme is. You’ve got a lot of things going on, destruction of the Klingon empire by the Doomsday Machine over here, the Tholians on this side, and the Crystalline Entity at the end. But they’re not connected. One of those concepts could make the whole movie. You’ve only got two hours to deal with, and you can’t get an audience to digest all of that, in my opinion.

But you said something that absolutely floored me, Kirk discovering that he had an 8 year old son. That would be one thing I’d actually LIKE to see in the new movie. We’ve been eyeing him and Carol, wondering if they’ll get together, if they wont, if they’ll have David, if they’ll stay together if the do have David, etc. But….but….what if THIS happened:

(Jim and Carol have obviously grown closer since the last movie, and appear to be serious. While on shore leave, after visiting Carol’s mother in London, Jim decides to take Carol to the abandoned farm he was raised on)

Jim: Carol, I have to tell you something. Over the last few years, my life has been turned completely upside down, both professionally and personally. Before I met you, I thought life was a big party, to be celebrated until it came to an end. The best case scenario was that I’d have lots of fun and live a long life before dying alone. But ever since you came into my life, I’ve started thinking differently. About a future with you. About building something with you. And so I want to ask…

Carol: Jim….before you say that, there’s something I have to tell you.

Jim: What?

Carol: You have a son.

Jim: A wha….Carol, that’s amazing! are you pregnant!!?!?

Carol: (deadpans) No.

87. boborci - June 27, 2014

54. Jemini – June 27, 2014

Theoretically, it only becomes an alternate reality as a result of the time travel incursion from the future.

88. whatyoudonotknowandmustnowbetold - June 27, 2014

I am more optimistic about the third Star Trek reboot film than I am about the seventh Star Wars film.

89. Trekboi - June 27, 2014

I agree with 82. TUP

“The time for a story about a gay character was in the TNG time when they were pushing the envelope with that non-gender species that Riker hooked up with (how would they even do it) or DS9 with the lesbian Dax story.

Now, it would not be cutting edge at all. If they want to make a subtle statement, Im all for it. Just have a character be gay. It doesnt have to be a big thing. It doesnt need its own story. It doesnt have to be what moves the plot or defines the character. At a moment of crisies, he doesnt need to pull from his experiences as a gay man to save the day.

Just have him be gay like Kirk etc is straight.”

But I repeat to Bob Orci

I am gay & most of my gay friends love Star Trek but I have been pissed for years that there is no sign of homosexuality in the 22nd, 23rd or 24th century.
The implication most homophobic fans smugly assume is that homosexuality was one of the diseases “Cured” to achieve the utopian Star Trek universe.
This is not true & one of Genes last wishes was to deal with it in Star Trek TNG but he died before doing it.

I want to see myself, gays in the future like Whopee Goldberg saw herself & black people in the future in Uhura.

It could easily have been done with one relevant line in “The Outcast” or “Congenator” & I understand it would be harder to find a way in a film which doesn’t deal with those issues but it could be as easy as a character mentioning a partner or a couple or friends that are same sex in some small throwaway line, joke, or comment.
There are a million ways to do it without it having to be a part of the story.

Please Just Make it Happen.
It Matters.

90. Trekboi - June 27, 2014

75. NX01 – June 27, 2014

I can tell you why people want a gay character- we want to be clearly included in Star Trek & Gene Roddenberrys vision of the future.

91. Stephan - June 27, 2014

87. boborci – June 27, 2014

The way you describe it bob, is at least the way I understood it, when I was studying physics. I think Hawking describes it that way as well.

92. Stephan - June 27, 2014

@boborci:

By the way, a question about your new film, you are going to direct: I have heard Abrams doesn’t make movies which are much longer than 120 minutes. What do you think about making your directorial debut a bit longer, e.g. 140/150 minutes?

Of course, only if it serves the story. ;)

93. Ahmed - June 27, 2014

@boborci

Any chance of extending the running time from 2 hours to 2 1/2 hours or something ?

‘Transformers 4′ is almost 3 hours long & that didn’t hurt its box office (domestically & overseas) at all.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-preview-transformers-4-714875

94. TUP - June 27, 2014

@ Boborci – I was disappointed in the changing of the way time travel works in the Trek Universe. While TNG established that alternate universes exist, when it comes to core time travel stories, it’s always been the fact that doing something in the past alters the future.

Your change rendered Edith Keeler’s death (and Kirk’s heartbreaking intervention to let her die) moot. Live or die, it didnt matter since all it did was start a new universe. Unless we’re accepting that the Portal defies your time travel conventions and actually transplants people within their own time line, which if true opens up even more contradictions.

The characters in your films werent the Kirk, Spock etc we know. It was a different universe. Interesting as it was, its not more legitimate within the Trek world than the Mirror Universe characters are.

The stakes were lowered. Prime Spock wasn’t saving our earth, it was a different one. Our Vulcan didnt explode, it was a different one. And our Kirk didnt die (only to be ressurected with the terrible magic blood), it was a different Kirk.

I held out hope that the 50th Anni movie would be an epic that “fixes” these issues and “restores” the timeline. Shatner and Nimoy are obviously available. Im sure Patrick Stewart would do it. No doubt Frakes would do it, likely for free.

I hope its a good movie and a good story. But will it be the epic the 50th anniversary deserves?

95. boborci - June 27, 2014

93.

Reminds me of an old joke

First old lady: “The food here is terrible…”

Second old lady: “Yes, and such small portions.”

96. boborci - June 27, 2014

92. Stephan – June 27, 2014

;)

97. Ahmed - June 27, 2014

@95. boborci

Huh ?

98. Trek in a cafe - June 27, 2014

Ok so Bob, I was at a listening party for a new brian eno album that came out last year. It was in a church in NYC. I spent most of the time imagining a what strange new worlds would be like in the opening of a new strange new worlds Star Trek.

Can you reach out to some scientist and ask them what is the strangest environment they hypothesize could exist? Can the search for new life and new civilizations be tied to all the new planets we are finding now, but more extreme? Will we all feel like we are there?

That is what I hope for. Like I’m watching Star Trek in a planetarium.

99. Keachick (Rose) - June 27, 2014

#56 – Jemini – I agree with you. Exactly.

#61 – You misunderstand me. I have no problem with Kirk being in bed with two feline humanoids and it was obviously a mutually consenting arrangement. My problem has to do with the fact we never heard any names mentioned and the scene was abruptly cut, where there was no need. This is not about the characters. It is about “writers/directors/editors behaving badly” re the *contemptuous cutting of the scene. Why Orci would necessarily consider Kirk behaving immaturely (as in being inconsiderate, engaging in genuine sexual misconduct…) is what I am querying.
*other meanings – intolerant? immature?
Bob Orci?

#63 Trekbilly – I wrote that the Gorn were a bore. I never wrote that anyone posting here was. However, you did, ie being personal and rude.

“I guess you’d rather see the Klingons or Romulans for the billionth time…”

I have given no indication of that being my preference. However I do see that either or both of these races may make an appearance in the next movie, because they appear to have the largest alien populations, outside of humanity, in this part of Trek universe.

100. Keachick (Rose) - June 27, 2014

#95 – LOL! even more so, given that Ahmed didn’t get the joke…LOL
I nearly spat out my tea…:)

101. Cygnus-X1 - June 27, 2014

87. boborci – June 27, 2014
54. Jemini – June 27, 2014

Theoretically, it only becomes an alternate reality as a result of the time travel incursion from the future.

If we’re talking MWI, then you’re both technically correct.

In the MWI, parallel universes are constantly splitting off from their predecessor universes at every quantum event or at a set of co-dependent events. Presumably, Nero’s ship going through the black hole was a set of co-dependent events that would have caused one or more universe to split off from the Prime Timeline. However, as soon as that Alt Universe split off (the one in which we take an interest), myriad other universes would have begun splitting off from the Alt Universe at every quantum event in that universe. And, by the same logic, myriad other universes had already split off from the Prime Timeline by the point in time where we take an interest in it, i.e. when Nero comes through the black hole.

102. Ahmed - June 27, 2014

===============================

The Borg, And 9 Other Possibilities For ‘Star Trek 3′ Villains: The Enterprise is heading into ‘deep space,’ but who will they fight once there?

http://www.mtv.com/news/1856654/star-trek-3-villains/

Klingons
Romulans/Vulcans
The Gorn
Tribbles !
The Mirror Universe
Section 31
The Borg
Q
Tolian Soran
Something New

===============================

Some of these possibilities are ridiculous (The Gorn, the Tribbles & Tolian Soran), others we already met (Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans & Section 31) & not sure about the rest (The Borg & Q)

I would rather see something new.

103. Stephan - June 27, 2014

@boborci:

But after two in my opinion great courses I am excited for a great main course which should never end. ;-)

104. Charley W - June 27, 2014

Please, please, PLEASE!! No more post-Watergate “Stafleet is the Villian” or “Starfleet gets wiped-out and only THE ENTERPRISE can save the Universe” plots. I’ve seen enough of that paranoid crap, and won’t be paying to see any more. Go back to GR’s original concept of ‘Horatio Hornblower in Space’ with the exploration factor. That doesn’t mean that you should completely abandon ideas from TOS- certainly have Klingons, Gorn, Andorians (my favorites), whatever, in a new story.

Not ALL stories HAVE to have a Villian…

105. Keachick (Rose) - June 27, 2014

#74 – I still have a concern about Orci’s contradictions in the sense “this is an alternate universe so we can do whatever we want” versus “these will be the characters almost as you remember from TOS”.”

Really? There is no contradiction here. Once again, given your post after this one, you are confused. Yes, the film makers can do whatever they want, more or less, given that they are still constrained by certain Trek *realities*. These characters are much the same as the ones we know from the TOS series, however they get to experience (slightly) different events at different ages and how this impacts on them.

How difficult is that to understand, honestly?

106. Charley W - June 27, 2014

(Sorry, part of my previous message got left off and there’s no editing feature.)

Another possibility is using previously established characters in new stories: Finnegan, Ruth, McCoy’s ex-wife or daughter, Sybok, Finney, Irina, etc, The Star Trek Universe is incredibly rich and there’s just was no excuse to focus exclusively on the seven bridge crew, to the point that in the movies it seemed as if they were on duty 30 hours a day, 10 days a week. Even ST2 brought Kyle back!

107. Long Haired Sybock - June 27, 2014

Roddenberry never felt the need to call out gay characters with flashing pink neon signs.

He just put them in a dress.

108. crazydaystrom - June 27, 2014

Hi Bob (does shot),

I first heard that joke in a Woody Allen film years ago. haha

Anyway, I’m requesting, again, a brief appearance of Wynona Kirk or at least a reference to her. And a reference to Amanda Grayson would be nice too.

In fact, how about a 45 or 60 second montage of showing the various things that the crew might be doing while off-duty in deep space that ends with Kirk communicating with his mom? Something like that. Certainly in a feature length film a minute could be spared for something like this. A little bit of heart and soul to counter-balance the WHAM! and BAM! You could even use it as an homage or wave to your own mom. Please consider.
Thank you.

109. Keachick (Rose) - June 27, 2014

#34 – “Besides, as someone on this board had asked, would there be a worse reaction if Uhura was getting out of bed with two dudes? Alas, the world will never know…”
#70 – “34. dswynne
Uhura would NEVER be into such excessive hetero human hookups.”

#70 – How do you know?
This issue comes down to the fact that so many people do not want to see any references to any kind of intimate relationships between characters. They see them as unnecessary or taking up too much good film time etc. However, it does not stop assumptions being made about a particular character’s behaviour/preferences when there is no supporting evidence to back up a view, especially given that, right now, the writers/producers are being told not to bother with writing about these kinds of issues within the story…

So writers can’t write a character’s love relationships, sexuality, religious/moral/ethical, political views; family are to be kept at distance, particularly if a character like Kirk has a child(ren). So many did not like the scene on the shuttle between Spock, Uhura and Kirk and the impression I have is that the objection was not just about where the discussion took place, but that it was shown at all. The fact that this conversation was an important part of the film seems to have escaped many.

People do not exist in a vacuum and that goes for these characters as well. If so many object to writers exploring the more personal aspects of these characters, then these people will appear to be caricatures, one dimensional, because we can’t be told anything about what makes these characters tick. How dumb is that?

110. crazydaystrom - June 27, 2014

For clarification –
The joke I was referring to was Bob’s post #95.
The “Hi Bob (does shot)” is an old Bob Newhart Show drinking game.

111. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#97. Ahmed – June 27, 2014

If you have to explain it…well, I’m going to try anyway as an excuse to visit ancient history:

As the cartoon character, Foghorn Leghorn, which was a voice parody by Mel Blanc of the Senator Claghorn comic character on the competition to his Benny Radio Program’s THE FRED ALLEN SHOW would say, “It’s a joke, son! Ah say. Ah say, ”A JOKE!””

And a good one, the type I hope he can find room for in his next opus, but if it’s too inside the ballpark will probably end up on the cutting room floor. But I’ll still appreciate the effort.

LOL, Bob, LOL!

112. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#110. crazydaystrom – June 27, 2014

Really? And here I thought you were providing a rim shot!

113. Keachick (Rose) - June 27, 2014

I took a different meaning from Bob’s joke.

It had to do with how people will note how terrible the food was and yet still complain that the portion sizes are too small, as if portion size should matter if the food is that terrible…:)

114. Ahmed - June 27, 2014

@111. Disinvited

Yeah, I got that it is a joke but I was asking Bob a simple question about extending the running time for the next movie. It will give them more time for character moments amidst the explosions & running scenes.

115. Ahmed - June 27, 2014

@113. Keachick (Rose)

“as if portion size should matter if the food is that terrible…:)”

So the extending running time wouldn’t make a difference since the movie is going to be terrible anyway :-)

116. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#101. Cygnus-X1 – June 27, 2014

Hold the phone. For the longest time, I’ve been puzzling how Nero’s and Spock’s ships became entangled so they they’d both pop into the same universe when logically you’d think each would have created their own separate alternate universe from each ship’s travel through time.

But if the alternate universe Nero seeded kept splitting for each quantum possibility, as you say, then Bob’s able to pick the one split where the two ship’s did somehow become entangled and both pop into the same universe.

117. Mark - June 27, 2014

I want a Christian character to reflect me.

118. Mark - June 27, 2014

In Star Trek ID, Kirk died and was brought back a few minutes later so why can’t William Shatner’s Kirk be brought back? Shatner could also play Chris Pine’s Kirk’s grandfather and just have a seen where they are talking on the viewscreen together in Kirk’s quarters.

119. Ahmed - June 27, 2014

@ 117. Mark – June 27, 2014

“I want a Christian character to reflect me.”

What about the atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists ..etc

120. Trekbilly - June 27, 2014

#117 — AMEN!!! :-)

#99 Keachick — The Gorn aren’t boring. Maybe to you they are…but not to me. ;-)

121. boborci - June 27, 2014

113. DING DING DING!

122. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

# 119. Ahmed – June 27, 2014

“I want a Christian character to reflect me.” — Mark – June 27, 2014

” What about the atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists ..etc” — Ahmed

In the same movie? Looks like we are going to have to roll out the old Rec Room news conference. I mean the ship can accommodate 400+ possibilities. Not sure how many the Rec can.

123. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#121. boborci – June 27, 2014

LOL.

Keachick might be many things to many people but she’s NOT dingy!

124. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#113. Keachick (Rose) – June 27, 2014

3 Ringy-Dingys could be the Ernestine Ma Bell We’re The Phone Company And We don’t Care Humor Award.

We are not worthy.

125. Spock Out - June 27, 2014

Gay and Horta? Epic fail!!!!

If the future is rampant with homosexuals may Starfleet be sodomized by Klingons and Romulans alike. It’s an abomination in any timeline!!!

Horta? Who cares!!!!

Spock Out

126. Khan 2.0 - June 27, 2014

hello to boborci, some questions (if u are able to answer any at this point)

– if SW7 has to move to summer 2016 – will that mean Trek3 will be released late 2016? (like 2002 -Clones summer, Nemesis xmas) I mean Trek and Wars out the same summer (maybe even the same month!) would be like crossing the streams right…the universe would implode

actually that’s the only Q I can think of that you might be able to shed some light on at the moment (I very much doubt youd be able to shed any light on if the The Borg, Picard/TNG, Shatner, timetravel/alternate universes etc are going to feature in ST3 )

127. crazydaystrom - June 27, 2014

112. Disinvited – June 27, 2014

“#110. crazydaystrom –
Really? And here I thought you were providing a rim shot!”

Yeah really. Now I’ve reread my post I see it could be interpreted several ways. I’ll explain. There was actually a drinking game called “Hi Bob” that was played while watching the old Bob Newhart show. Whenever anyone on the show said the name Bob on the show you took a gulp (or a sip) of your drink. Whenever anyone said “Hi Bob!” You had to down your drink. Or you took a shot, if you were playing ‘shots’. Fun, silly drinking game from years ago.

But as I said Disinvited, I see now how “Hi Bob. does shot” could be interpreted more than a couple of ways.

128. stargazer54 - June 27, 2014

Wow! Been away for a while.

Glad to see we’re ramping up for a 2016 release.

God Speed, boborci.

129. Disinvited - June 27, 2014

#125. Spock Out – June 27, 2014

Wait that’s it! Cancel rec scene. Write in bisexual Horta that’s of interdenominational faiths.

130. drumvan - June 27, 2014

i like what i’m hearing/reading so far.

good luck bob. kick star wars butt :)

131. Harry Ballz - June 27, 2014

A gay Horta?

There’s a ROCK Hudson joke in there somewhere.

132. Commodore Adams - June 27, 2014

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Trek-3-Return-Franchise-Roots-Head-Deep-Space-43641.html

“Where’s the space we were promised after Star Trek? Benedict Cumberbatch doesn’t look like any alien I know! It continued during the film, where locating Cumberbatch’s “John Harrison” (whatever) meant starting some sort of intergalactic war, the sort of intergalactic war that just fades away and is never discussed again.”

133. Commodore Adams - June 27, 2014

I also meant to say that the new Star Trek movies have been too Earth centric. Granted I like seeing future Earth but Star Trek is about deep space exploration. Granted TMP and TVH were Earth centric and TWOK started out with the Enterprise leaving Earth as did TFF and TUC.

And its also a tease that this grandiose Klingon conflict is hinted at but it wasn’t promised because its easily avoided by Kirk thwarting the Admirals plans, so a movie about a Klingon conflict never has to manifest.

A deep space exploration movie, throw in some Gorn and Klingons and I’m smiling.

Star Trek is about peaceful exploration but at its heart its sill about conflict, with ourselves, each other, other species and learning to work through those issues to arrive at a better understanding. You can’t have Star Trek without some sort of conflict no matter how minor.

134. TwoGunGunnar - June 27, 2014

It’s going to be the Borg.

It HAS to be…c’mon…Star Trek hasn’t been about “The New” since TOS was cancelled. Hell, the SECOND episode of TNG was a rehash of a TOS episode.

At some point it was discovered that Trek fans don’t respond to The New…they respond to those “Hey! I’ve seen that before and therefore I like this!”-type moments.

We don’t want a new story or a new thing. We want Khan. Again. We want to see someone yell, “KHAAAAAAAN!” again. We want tribbles. Again. We want Old Spock. Again.
Aside from Khan, the most recognizable thing from Star Trek are the Borg.

Does anyone really think they WON’T do the Borg in STIII? Seriously?
Ok…maaaaaaybe they’ll do Q instead of the Borg.
But it’ll be the Borg. Again. Still.
Oh, and Picard as a little kid, Prequel-style. If not Picard, we’ll get someone from TNG as a little kid.

135. Harry Ballz - June 27, 2014

I’m telling you, it’s going to be about a renegade Gorn captain with a bad case of flatulence.

The title of the movie?

STAR TREK: GORN WITH THE WIND

136. Buzz Cagney - June 27, 2014

#923 I salute your optimism in expecting a story!

137. Captain Slow - June 27, 2014

@ 134 TwoGunGunnar

“Ok…maaaaaaybe they’ll do Q instead of the Borg.”

They’re currently doing a story in the comics with Q, so it can’t be him. The Borg I suppose are still possible.

“Oh, and Picard as a little kid, Prequel-style. If not Picard, we’ll get someone from TNG as a little kid.”

That would make Picard over a hundred years-old by TNG. And considering how McCoy looked at that age I doubt Picard was similarly old.

138. VOODOO - June 27, 2014

Cut Orci some slack. He played a big part in bringing back Star Trek from the dead. It’s so easy to forget that ST was all but dead and buried before these guys made the franchise relevant again.

The man is a fan like one of us . I feel the franchise is in good hands + I look for something special (Maybe Shatner + Nimoy?) for the franchises 50th anniversary.

139. Randall Williams - June 27, 2014

@BobOrci What you described in the interview as showing the behind
the scenes stuff is what Peter Jackson did for his LOTR and Hobbit Blog,
without giving the show away. It is a proven concept and works well.

Here are two crossed fingers for Good Luck with the new movie! ;)

140. Keachick (Rose) - June 27, 2014

#129 – Works for me…LOL

No Borg or Klingon/Romulan war, please! Besides, haven’t you heard? Captain Jake defeated the Borg by allowing the Borg to assimilate some very drunk Starfleet officers and the Borg’s subsequent hangover was the beginning of the end for them…:) (ref. other thread)

141. Cygnus-X1 - June 28, 2014

116. Disinvited – June 27, 2014

Hold the phone. For the longest time, I’ve been puzzling how Nero’s and Spock’s ships became entangled so they they’d both pop into the same universe when logically you’d think each would have created their own separate alternate universe from each ship’s travel through time.

That’s a good question.

Remember, in MWI universes are constantly splitting off at every quantum event. So, there might be a million universes which are nearly identical but which differ by certain minor variables, i.e. insignificant (for our purposes) quantum outcomes. In one universe, a particle zigs whereas in another universe the same particle zags instead.

So, imagine the black hole “mouth” opening up into universe B. For our purposes here, “universe B” is the first universe which has split off from the Prime Timeline as a consequence of the black hole and Nero incursion.

Nero comes through the black hole into universe B, and an instant later, some unrelated quantum event causes universe B1 to form and split off from universe B. The mouth of the black hole is still in universe B as well as in universe B1 now. This process is repeated myriad times per second after Nero has come through. Trillions and trillions of alternate universes are forming every second—B3, B4, B5…Bn—each of them with a Nero and a black hole mouth in it.

We arbitrarily pick one of these “lines” of universes to take an interest in for the purposes of the story. After the passage of some time—20 years relative to Nero’s inertial plane of reference, but just a few seconds for Spock Prime, due to the black hole’s gravity slowing the flow of time—Spock Prime comes through the black hole mouth and into one of the universes descended from universe B.

To put it another way, universe B spawned many branches of universes, each branch comprising a series of universes, many of which had the black hole mouth opening up into them from the Prime Timeline.

I’m not saying that I believe in the MWI or that complete, fully formed universes instantaneously popping into existence *poof* makes sense intuitively. But this is my understanding of how the MWI would apply as the time-travel device in STID. Just as every object in a universe is duplicated when that universe splits and branches into descendant universes, thus for the entrance and exit of the black hole—many entrances, many exits, leading from and to many universes—like a fork in the road, but with many tines on both ends.

142. Cygnus-X1 - June 28, 2014

138. VOODOO – June 27, 2014

Cut Orci some slack. He played a big part in bringing back Star Trek from the dead. It’s so easy to forget that ST was all but dead and buried before these guys made the franchise relevant again.

Hey Disinvited, have you got those links handy for our friend here?

143. JRT! - June 28, 2014

BobOrci-I would just like to know one thing. Now that you’re gonna be busy with the movie,and not do any more Spidey movies for me,lol,will you still keep an eye on the ST comic though? Please say yes,even if you aren’t,LOL!

Looking forward to see what you do with the movie.

John-Robin!

144. Keachick (Rose) - June 28, 2014

“In English, ding ding is an onomatopoeia word referring to the sound of a ringing bell. The earliest surviving reference to the word appears in the Annals of the Four Masters under the year 1015 A.D. as follows-

“Macliag, i.e. Muircheartach, son of Cuceartach, chief poet of Ireland at that time, died. His last quatrain was this: O Bell, which art at the head of my pillow, to visit thee no friends come; Though thou makest thy ‘ding dang,’ IT IS BY THEE THE SALT IS MEASURED.” Wikipedia

I assume that Bob Orci #121 means that my interpretation of his joke is the correct one. Please allow me to enjoy this acknowledgement. Thank you…

145. Disinvited - June 28, 2014

#142. Cygnus-X1 – June 28, 2014, #138. VOODOO – June 27, 2014

Sure.

It had not been 10 months before Gail Berman and Moonves were wrangling over the next Trek movie since the airing of ENTERPRISE’s last original episode. And, yes, old Paramount had a movie in the works before the split being worked out in 2005 upset those plans with the regime change that put another Berman in charge of ALIVE Trek and set a new deadline for Gail Berman’s new Paramount next Trek movie.

But two things are abundantly clear: Trek movies were not dead and Moonves, who got control of Trek in the split, was demanding one — again, NOT dead.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070804012239/http://syfyportal.com/news.php?id=2489

“[A] classic case of Hollywood regime change. A project is greenlighted by one regime, and by the time it’s delivered, there’s a coup d’etat.” — Erik Jendresen, Emmy-winning writer best known for the “Band of Brothers” miniseries on HBO who was commissioned to write a script that would become the 11th Star Trek motion picture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/movies/26itzk.html?pagewanted=all

”Gail Berman, then [2005] the president of Paramount, convinced Leslie Moonves, the chief executive of CBS, to allow her one more chance at a “Trek” film; he gave her 18 months to get the cameras rolling or lose the property. (Under the arrangement CBS retained the “Star Trek” merchandising rights.)” — “New Team Retrofits the Old Starship”, By DAVE ITZKOFF, NY TIMES, Published: April 23, 2009

146. Jemini - June 28, 2014

87. boborci – June 27, 2014
54. Jemini – June 27, 2014

Theoretically, it only becomes an alternate reality as a result of the time travel incursion from the future.

+

101. Cygnus-X1 – June 27, 2014
87. boborci – June 27, 2014
54. Jemini – June 27, 2014

If we’re talking MWI, then you’re both technically correct.

——————

@Boborci,
yes, I do remember Spock and Uhura explaining that in the first movie and I’m not questioning the logic of that reasoning and why the characters think that :)
The way I see it, though, when it comes to different realities everything is very relative, including our definition of ‘time’ and space and our perception of them.
Yes, I guess that this reality became alternate — from our limited perspective, at least — as a result of the time travel that created a difference between tos and this one, so to speak, that we can notice and that’s why we call this reality ‘alternate’. It makes sense.
But, as some people mentioned here, star trek isn’t new to time travel but such things never really created alternate realities before (or, thinking about it, we might simply not know it)
While I don’t think that the reality showed by TOS could be considered the default one, so to speak, I believe that the characters of each reality — including the reboot characters– might easily think that their reality is the default one and it’s the others that are ‘different’. lol

In the comics we were introduced to other realities beside the reboot one and for example (back to what Cygnus-X1 said) they’re way more similar to the reboot reality and these characters than they are to Spock Prime’s reality.

147. Jemini - June 28, 2014

94. TUP – June 27, 2014

The characters in your films werent the Kirk, Spock etc we know. It was a different universe. Interesting as it was, its not more legitimate within the Trek world than the Mirror Universe characters are.

—–

but why shouldn’t it be ‘legitimate’ as well?

if anything, having a reboot that shows another reality is more fun and, in some way, more respectful of canon and what came before than making a remake that wants to change the original thing too.
It seems like some people keep thinking that the reboot is a ‘threat’ to tos and those characters and has the power to suddenly change everything. Your dvds are safe ;)

“I held out hope that the 50th Anni movie would be an epic that “fixes” these issues and “restores” the timeline. “

this is what I’m talking about when I question people’s perception of which reality must be the default one and the most ‘valid’.
They all are.

the funny thing here is imagining that maybe the reboot characters think just the same about TOS and they think that it’s TOS that should be ‘fixed’ and restored according to the ‘rules’ of this reality.

Or maybe they wouldn’t care anyway and neither would the tos characters…

148. spooky - June 28, 2014

86. LogicalLeopard – June 27, 2014

Hi LL,

“That’s a very busy plot, and I’m not sure where the theme is. You’ve got a lot of things going on,”

I’m simply trying to play with the rules which were established with the 2009 movie, at least as I perceived them.
I mean the Red Matter had to have had more of an impact on this reality than what was believed by Spock Prime. Heck you could spin that anyway you want, “don’t mess with the natural order of the universe or Q’s speech to Picard about moving out into the universe far too quickly”

“destruction of the Klingon empire by the Doomsday Machine”

I just wanted to get them out of the way. :D
Really though, what more can be said about the Klingons?
They were present in many of the original feature films and heavily developed throughout TNG and DS9. Leave them be, no Klingon War thank you.

“the Tholians on this side, and the Crystalline Entity at the end. But they’re not connected.”

IMHO, The Tholians appear Crystalline themselves so I thought for this universe I’d connect the two.
The history and sequence of events would likely be different in this reality of the Trek universe.
Certain histories of alien species may be different, look at the Klingons and their moon in the most recent film.
I’m kind of imaging that the red matter which destroyed Nero’s ship at the end wasn’t completely destroyed, perhaps it survived being pulled into that black hole and bubbled up in other time realities and activated. Since then it has been pulling and pushing things in and out of the chronological series of events.
For instance, a non-matured crystalline entity from a future reality is pulled into one of the activated black holes and dumped into the past of this Nu-movie reality, far early than it should have. Because its not mature enough it finds a play to dwell for a few thousand years where it is discovered by a rogue sect of Tholians.

I just love the Tholians, I want to see them make an appearance on the big screen in a big way. Is that really so hard? :o

“One of those concepts could make the whole movie. You’ve only got two hours to deal with, and you can’t get an audience to digest all of that, in my opinion.”

I respect your opinion but I also disagree… audiences are more savvy these days and I would think that they would appreciate that storylines are just one event per movies, sometimes events and factors cluster together to form bigger events. For instance, having one villain/calamity in an event is silly. These things don’t line up taking turns to happen, its usually a cluster of things set into motion by a series of factors.

Vulcans-Spock-Red Matter-Blackhole-Nero-Altered History-etc-etc-etc.

“But you said something that absolutely floored me, Kirk discovering that he had an 8 year old son. That would be one thing I’d actually LIKE to see in the new movie. We’ve been eyeing him and Carol, wondering if they’ll get together, if they wont, if they’ll have David, if they’ll stay together if the do have David, etc. But….but….what if THIS happened:”

(Jim and Carol have obviously grown closer since the last movie, and appear to be serious. While on shore leave, after visiting Carol’s mother in London, Jim decides to take Carol to the abandoned farm he was raised on)”

Yeah… I was trying to go for something that would put Kirk into a darker path for his future. A rogue Kirk could be the most dangerous thing in the Federation. Especially if he knows that kidnapping Spock Prime would be of huge advantage for him knowing about future events/technological knowledge and so forth.

I know it comes off as hugely fan-boyish but nothing… :)

149. Stephan - June 28, 2014

So, what if Star Wars gets pushed back to May, 2016?

What would that mean for Star Trek? I don’t want it to be pushed to 2017 and I don’t want it to compete against Star Wars directly. But it is hard to pick a month with no new Star Wars movie. ;)

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/32735/-star-wars-delay-talk-again-new-plot-rumors

150. Jonboc - June 28, 2014

It shouldn’t get moved at all. Those who want to go see Star Trek that summer aren’t going to skip it because Star Wars is out. And vice versa. Bring it out a few weeks before or a few weeks after. it’ll be fine.

151. Poliander - June 28, 2014

The remnants of the Borg sphere are still around. Let the crew go where no one has gone before and seek out where those strange guys came from.

There, you have a plot. :)

152. John from Cincinnati - June 28, 2014

Hey BobOrci-

For the 50th Anniversary I think it would be poetic for the franchise to come full circle and include the Talosians as part of Star Trek 3. This whole new universe can be a creation of the Talosians when Prime Spock “entered” the red matter black hole.

Also – even though I’m 42 I got accepted to Georgia Tech for Aerospace Engineering. Inspired by my heroes of Star Trek in front of and behind the cameras. Thank you

153. Disinvited - June 28, 2014

# 149. Stephan – June 28, 2014

” So, what if Star Wars gets pushed back to May, 2016? ” — Stephan

So what? Assuming Orci isn’t going to the STAR WARS’ shoot to chase Ford’s cast with his pen, his STAR TREK sequel should be able to position itself to do well even if such a box office confrontation that you fear comes to pass. He’s already got Trek buzz going smartly and, unlike Abrams, he’s even managed to mention STAR WARS without causing the focus to change.

The only thing I see worthy of anxiety is if this is actually another case of life imitating art and JJ’s Marcus is actually using Bob’s Khan on a secret mission to lower the boom on the indigenous labour, as I don’t see that ending well. You know, I did see on his Fringe Production Diaries that he owns cold weather gear and we all know how Monte Markham’s grandfather character fell into suspended animation in THE SECOND HUNDRED YEARS…

154. TwoGunGunnar - June 28, 2014

@Captain Slow

“’Oh, and Picard as a little kid, Prequel-style. If not Picard, we’ll get someone from TNG as a little kid.’”

“That would make Picard over a hundred years-old by TNG. And considering how McCoy looked at that age I doubt Picard was similarly old.”

So? After seeing the previois two movies, do you really think that’d stop them? Probably not.

“People don’t want New Things. They want References – like on Family Guy. New Things are different, and people don’t like things that are different. References are what the people want. And they go nuts for crossover-“What if X met Y”-type things. We NEED to put Kid Picard in this flick!”

Maybe it won’t be Picard, but there WILL be a TNG character in there. Maybe Guinan. Or they’ll find Data’s buried head or something. We NEED references!

155. Red Red Ryan - June 28, 2014

#154.

Sorry, but there will be no TNG characters in the next movie. Why would or should there be? The reboot films are totally seperate from TNG, which, a long time ago, died out with a whimper.

Trek has moved on from that era. It’s enjoying unparalleled success on the big screen. Not sure why the writers would sabotage it by including Picard or Guinan, neither of whom are of interest to the new audiences.

156. Oscar - June 28, 2014

What a bombastic blah , blah blah
Botton line:
Other mindless action movie with more brawn than brain and tons of plot holes.
Orci is a mediocre writer and he is not a director…he is a copycat.
His project is a very low profil one. A pseudo star trek movie, gijoe trek, made only for his minions. And they are only a couple of hundreds.

This film, the last film of this ludicrous pseudostartrek, will be a disaster..
Wait and see

Star Trek 2016: gone with the Orci
Starring: the muppets.
Do you want a true sci fi movie? Interstellar. For smart fans.December, 2014.
2016 is the year of Captain America, Batman& Superman, X men, Spider-Man, the spin off of Star Wars…
Orci’ movie is nothing. A little spot.

157. Disinvited - June 28, 2014

#137. Captain Slow – June 27, 2014 , #154. TwoGunGunnar – June 28, 2014

For the record, Admiral McCoy was 137 years old and its the final 37 that took their toll on him.

158. metronome - June 28, 2014

Why not make a 50th anniversary movie in which the original cast (Shatner, Nimoy, Nichols, Koenig, Takei) goes one last time on an adventure. They are older, but not that old that they couldn’t pull it off one more time. Everyone (except Kelley and Doohan, of course) would be reunited after 50 years for one final adventure! I say bring them aboard, ditch the alternate universe cast, they were a poor choice anyway (except maybe Urban and Quinto). It’s unrealistic, I know, but it’s an interesting thought nevertheless.

159. Ahmed - June 28, 2014

I listened to the full interview & there are some encouraging signs there.

They are off on their five-year mission in deep space away from Earth, FINALLY. Kirk is an adult this time, so hopefully no more of that frat-boy attitude.

Orci made an interesting comment about using familiar elements from previous works:

“If it fits where we’re going then it fits. I’m certainly I’m not looking to repeat anything this time, or fit things in that don’t fit into where we’re going”

Hopefully that means no more Khan, Big Black Ship (TM) or lifting & reversing key scenes from the old movies.

Overall I’m cautiously optimistic :-)

160. Ahmed - June 28, 2014

@155. Oscar

Orci is directing the next movie, whether we like it or not. All that we can do is wait & hope that it is going to be a better Trek movie than STID.

@ 157. metronome – June 28, 2014

“Why not make a 50th anniversary movie in which the original cast (Shatner, Nimoy, Nichols, Koenig, Takei) goes one last time on an adventure. ”

Might works as a TV miniseries or One-Shot Trek short film, but it is not possible as a theatrical movie. Best that we can hope for, that they get cameo roles in the movie, specially Shatner.

161. Disinvited - June 28, 2014

#158. Ahmed – June 28, 2014

That’s the way I see it. I know Bob’s made himself a lightning rod for those previous films’ criticisms but he was only one fourth of committee that produced those. I think his film will have a more singular voice and be better for it.

Not to get ahead of ourselves, but if he does somehow manage to run rings around the next STAR WARS flick, I wonder how many of us apparent curmudgeons could resist razzing the Troopers waiting in their lines? I wonder how bad or how cool 2016’s nerd riots will be?

162. crazydaystrom - June 28, 2014

144. Keachick (Rose)
“I assume that Bob Orci #121 means that my interpretation of his joke is the correct one. Please allow me to enjoy this acknowledgement.”

I’m pretty sure you assume correctly there Keachick. Enjoy. :-)

160. Disinvited
“I think his film will have a more singular voice and be better for it.”

HOPE-FUL-LY-!

163. Lurker - June 28, 2014

Oscar, you need to be tested for carbon monoxide poisoning. I’m sure that basement air is getting pretty stale by now.

164. Keachick (Rose) - June 28, 2014

I think that Bob should be able to do what he wants, including putting a clever twist on events that we know took place in the prime universe. I enjoyed STID and had no problem with what they did with the Kirk death scene, not in spite of it.

Guinan and Q are the only two who could legitimately turn up in this alternate universe in the time period these current stories are dealing with. Hey, I like Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg) especially… It is also credible that, in this universe, that Data’s head could be found earlier than it was in the prime universe. Why not? Could be interesting. I doubt that it matters too much when the head gets discovered (or could it?), because it has been buried for so long (400 years).

Frankly, it really does not make that much sense to have other characters from TNG turn up because that would mean that this alternate universe has got totally skewered. That is self-defeating for the purposes of this TOS based film series. Original TOS cast should play an older relative, if they appear at all.

165. Stephan - June 28, 2014

Guinan would be great!! :-) Whoopi already expressed interest as well.

166. Ahmed - June 28, 2014

@164. Keachick (Rose) – June 28, 2014

Instead of searching for God, they should be looking for the Devil in the next movie!

Or they could travel back in time to China to bring back pandas to “talk” with an alien probe, that would do wonder at the Chinese box office!

Why bother with a new story if all you need to do is “putting a clever twist on events that we know took place in the prime universe.”!!

167. Oscar - June 28, 2014

Ahmed,
ST 2016 will be a summer blockbuster, but a Paramount summer blockbuster…and Paramount philosophy is very clear they only want mindless summer blockbusters for easy movigoers…

Gijoe, transformers, Abramverse…is the same stuff made for the same easy movigoers….if you want a good Sci fi summer blockbuster , your choice is not a Paramount movie, 20,30 years ago, maybe, but right now, nope….

Paramount philosophy+ Orci creative bankruptcy= disaster.
Orci is a copycat. And he only wants to be a copycat. And his fans are happies. They only want the same stuff but in a mindless version made by their hero…Oh, it is cool, it is not a «cervellotic» stuff…it is « new blood», but new and good it is not the same thing…
Roberto Orci, god and director…
No problem, interstellar will be an Anti Abrams/Orci Sci fi movie
made by a number one for smart people.

Interstellar will be what ST 2009 should have been.

168. Stephan - June 28, 2014

167. Oscar

…booooring.

169. Riker's Mailbox - June 28, 2014

I have noticed that in the few Bob Orci interviews since the most recent movie, the difficult questions about Into Darkness have not been broached. Questions like:

– Why did McCoy think injecting a tribble with human blood would bring it back to life?
– WHY did the tribble come back to life?
– Why did Kahn think that blowing up a Section 31 stronghold would get the Federation delegates in the exact room where he was waiting for them?
– Why would Admiral Marcus think that resurrecting a 300-year old human would help him build better Federation technology and weaponry?
– Why did they feel the need to show another space dive scene as in the ’09 movie?
– Why did new Spock assume that Old Spock knew anything about Khan?
– Why did old Spock assume that Khan was a terrible nemesis? After all, the reason for Khan’s revenge in Star Trek II was because Kirk totally screwed him over. This timeline is totally different.

I’m wondering if there is an agreement before these interviews begin that questions about the previous movie’s logic will not be asked. I’m not saying this because I want to create ‘gotcha’ situations. I just want to know how Bob Orci thought through these scenarios and how these plot decisions ultimately got approved.

170. Disinvited - June 28, 2014

#169. Riker’s Mailbox – June 28, 2014

“- Why did McCoy think injecting a tribble with human blood would bring it back to life?” — Riker’s Mailbox

Bzzzzt…because he didn’t. Checkout his dialogue:

Bones: The tribble’s dead, I’m injecting Khan platelets into the deceased tissue of necrotic host. Khan’s cells regenerate like nothing I’ve ever seen and I wanna know why.

plate·let

ˈplāt-lit/

noun

Physiology
plural noun: platelets

a small colorless disk-shaped cell fragment without a nucleus, found in large numbers in blood and involved in clotting.

“- WHY did the tribble come back to life?” — Riker’s Mailbox

It was a hemophiliac? But obviously, some regenerative factor that MCCoy isolate to the platelets.

“- Why did Kahn think that blowing up a Section 31 stronghold would get the Federation delegates in the exact room where he was waiting for them?” — Riker’s Mailbox

Because Marcus, fool that he was, allowed Khan to write the protocol for what to do in the aftermath of such an event?

“- Why would Admiral Marcus think that resurrecting a 300-year old human would help him build better Federation technology and weaponry?” — Riker’s Mailbox

Because he didn’t. He thought a 300-year old human would be far more capable of inventing the barbaric kinds of weapons and technology needed to defeat the Klingons than the wimpy refined minds of the Federation could conceive.

“- Why did they feel the need to show another space dive scene as in the ’09 movie?” — Riker’s Mailbox

It’s like LAY’S potato chips. Nobody can do just one.

“- Why did new Spock assume that Old Spock knew anything about Khan?” — Riker’s Mailbox

Because he didn’t. If he had done that he would have said to his older self, “Tell me everything you know about Khan.” instead he queried:

Spock: I will be brief. In your travels, did you ever encounter a man named Khan?

A better question from you might be, why couldn’t young Spock look Khan up as his older self had? Answer: Marcus’ whole operation being Top Secret and off the books, the Admiral redacted all information on Khan from the Federation Databases.

“- Why did old Spock assume that Khan was a terrible nemesis? After all, the reason for Khan’s revenge in Star Trek II was because Kirk totally screwed him over. This timeline is totally different.” — Riker’s Mailbox

What does motivation have to do with it? In both encounters (TV and film), Khan demonstrated a swift and effective ability to wrest control of Federation starships from their captains, and an unflinching readiness to resort to torture and death to get what he wants. Make no mistake about it, in SPACE SEED, if Khan’s Federation Kirk Legend contaminated girlfriend hadn’t interfered there would have been no Captain Kirk to confront later in THE WRATH OF KHAN.

Now my turn:

I want to know how you determined that Bob Orci, one member of a narrative creative party of four, was personally responsible for each and every one of your problems with that film?

171. Ahmed - June 28, 2014

@170. Disinvited

“I want to know how you determined that Bob Orci, one member of a narrative creative party of four, was personally responsible for each and every one of your problems with that film?”

Being part of the script team means that the members of the team are accountable to each other and that the team as a whole accepts accountability for the results of the team’s actions.

You can’t absolve Bob ,or anyone else in the team, simply because he was just one member in a team of four. It was a team work, so every one of the team is responsible for the end product.

172. Adolescent Nightmare - June 28, 2014

Make Chekov or Sulu gay. Then you don’t have to give lines to a new character. It can justed be hinted for now. Like he shows no interest in naked green girls.

173. Disinvited - June 28, 2014

#171. Ahmed – June 28, 2014

Everything, I’ve read indicated that JJ was the head coach or captain, if you will, who often put things in and pulled them out as he saw fit. This was not a collaboration of contributors with equal veto power. If there was one consistent theme that I recall in reading the writers many many interviews, is they pride themselves on being able to deliver a product tailored to their clients and studios. They get a lot of flack for being “commercial” in their scripts but they seem proud that what they produce creates a demand for their work and what they deliver is serviceable to the end of making profits. But I don’t see that as cause to say that what ended up on screen was each writers’ uncompromised personal “ideal” script.

I even recall all the writers claiming new Paramount never interfered with their process but recall JJ in an interview saying he had to pull things out that he wanted in, because of new Paramount’s paranoia that they might give some sort of fan taint to the product.

Look, I don’t disagree that Bob Orci is a loyal team player that will defend his fellow teammates to the bitter end, and the temptation is to whitewash his efforts with the whole shebang, but I just don’t think we’re seeing 100% undistilled Orci everywhere to date.

I mean are you really going to hold him personally responsible because the Kirk pendant scene it their first effort was quashed?

174. LogicalLeopard - June 28, 2014

119. Ahmed – June 27, 2014
@ 117. Mark – June 27, 2014

“I want a Christian character to reflect me.”

What about the atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists ..etc
**********************

He’s got a point. There are characters that have made atheistic statements in Star Trek, like Spock saying there are no such things as miracles. I seem to think that Picard made a dismissive statement early on in TNG. Khan was a Sikh, wasn’t he? (lapsed Sikh? *L*) I think the Hindu festival of lights is celebrated in TNG, or Data makes reference to it. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists? Haven’t seen em, to my recollection. Kirk and Uhura were somewhat familiar with Christianity in Bread and Circuses, because they got that the natives weren’t talking about the Sun but the Son, and Kirk wants to “see it all happen again” with a smile. Is Kirk a Christian? Or just interested in history? But I think the one of the only Christian portrayed was one of those thawed out humans in “The Neutral Zone” episode of TNG.

175. Riker's Mailbox - June 28, 2014

#169 Disinvited – I found some merit in a few of your answers. To answer your question, I don’t think that Bob Orci, who was one member of a narrative creative party of four, was personally responsible for each and every one of my problems with the film. I was just curious to hear what he felt about some of the finer plot points. That’s all.

176. Keachick (Rose) - June 28, 2014

Ahmed – Oh dear – comprehension problems again, I see?

What I wrote was this – “I think that Bob should be able to do what he wants, including…”

This does NOT mean excluding an original story being written by Bob and co.

177. LogicalLeopard - June 29, 2014

86. LogicalLeopard – June 27, 2014

Hi LL,

“That’s a very busy plot, and I’m not sure where the theme is. You’ve got a lot of things going on,”

I’m simply trying to play with the rules which were established with the 2009 movie, at least as I perceived them.
I mean the Red Matter had to have had more of an impact on this reality than what was believed by Spock Prime. Heck you could spin that anyway you want, “don’t mess with the natural order of the universe or Q’s speech to Picard about moving out into the universe far too quickly”

*******************************************

Well, it’s not so much the red matter having an effect on the universe. It’s the incident it caused with the Narada having an effect on the universe. Look at the Kelvin. It gets destroyed, people die, and those people aren’t around that maybe would have been around during TOS. Also, fleet movements, patrol patterns, priorities, exploration, technology, etc also changed.

*********************************************

“destruction of the Klingon empire by the Doomsday Machine”

I just wanted to get them out of the way. :D
Really though, what more can be said about the Klingons?
They were present in many of the original feature films and heavily developed throughout TNG and DS9. Leave them be, no Klingon War thank you.
*****************************

But if you “get them out of the way”, the audience will feel like they were shoved in just to get them out of the way. You don’t really have to even deal with them.

********************************

IMHO, The Tholians appear Crystalline themselves so I thought for this universe I’d connect the two.

********************************

I saw that angle, but it’s hard to connect two big concepts into a movie. Look at STID. You have two bad guys, Marcus and Khan. Their stories interweave together. But some people are not convinced that both of them actually worked together (even though I though they did). Some people think it would have been better to just have Marcus in the film alone.

So by that same token, the Tholians would be enough, especially if you have them presented in new and interesting angle. No webs, please! Your subplots could deal with the ship, the crew, a rescue mission, anything.
***************************************

Yeah… I was trying to go for something that would put Kirk into a darker path for his future. A rogue Kirk could be the most dangerous thing in the Federation. Especially if he knows that kidnapping Spock Prime would be of huge advantage for him knowing about future events/technological knowledge and so forth.

I know it comes off as hugely fan-boyish but nothing… :)

*****************************

Hey, we’re all fanboys, we just need to factor in a bit of consideration for the art of moviemaking while we do. But at this point, I don’ t think we need a rogue Kirk. The current arc is about developing him more into the Kirk prime we’ve seen before.

178. Ash - June 29, 2014

As long as we have more Bones taking a larger role and the Kirk/Spock/McCoy triumvirate working together for more than 2 minutes…

Finding Urban (and Quinto) was a gift for this reboot. They brought their characters to life like no one else in the cast IMO, and they had the trickiest characters to play. I really felt like a Bones was wasted in STID, I hope he gets his due in the next film.

179. Keachick (Rose) - June 29, 2014

My attempt to address some of the arguments made against these two latest Star Trek films –

The comments about the so-called *weak* character motivations of Nero and Khan, as in being *weak* villains or is it that the writing is *weak*? Yet when it is pointed out that every day in the real world, similar behaviours get demonstrated, these comments are ignored.

Nero had lost EVERYTHING – his planet, his home, his pregnant wife – everything and what’s more, prime Spock had assured him that his Romulus would be saved by the new tech that would stop the supernova. Spock failed to arrive in time and Romulus was destroyed. Nero, along with his small crew, were in shock and just like the Spocks, the grief (and anger) would be unimaginable. Nero needed to blame anything, anyone and prime Spock was the obvious person because Spock had failed to keep his word (or so Nero believed). Along with this disappointment (surely THE understatement) came the deeply imbedded antagonism that Romulans had for Vulcans. It was surely a foregone conclusion that Nero would attempt to seek retribution, if/when he got the chance, which is exactly what he did.

Yet, how often that has been explained and how often this reality been dismissed. It is as if so many people live in some kind of emotional vacuum, where they cannot empathize, sympathize with another’s shock and grief and how that might be expressed and dangerously so, at times.

Many holocaust survivors still seek retribution for some very old man who was a member of the Nazi Party or worked in a concentration camp because of what happened to them and/or their families 60/70 years on. Nero went crazy with grief and shock, sought revenge and more, and unfortunately also had access to a very powerful substance.

Khan was a bit like Nero, in that the world he knew had gone. He was awoken and forced to make weaponry for a warmonger who was doing much in secret, violating many Starfleet regulations/protocols (as Spock pointed out) and who was also Head of Starfleet, an organization that was supposed to be about the peaceful exploration of space and provide security for human colonies on distant worlds etc. For Khan, a genetically engineered human made for battle and rule, designing weaponry was right up his alley, however, Marcus also threatened the lives of the rest of his crew/family if he did not comply. Marcus activated the worst instincts and programming.

It is difficult to know who to empathize with more, Nero or Khan, for different reasons. This is not to say that everything should not be done to stop both men in their homicidal maniacal tracks.

Their respective motivations were only weak in the sense of being ethically/morally unsound, but, unfortunately, whoever said that ethics or logic often has ever had much to do with how wars get started, or a planet is deliberately imploded, with all the chaos, suffering and grief that follow.

Both villains were well written and their motivations not difficult to comprehend.

180. Keachick (Rose) - June 29, 2014

#177 – Are you not Spooky replying to LogicalLeopold?

On the above post, LogicalLeopold is saying Hi to LL – him/herself…

181. spooky - June 29, 2014

177. LogicalLeopard – June 29, 2014 –

Hello again,

*******************************************

Well, it’s not so much the red matter having an effect on the universe. It’s the incident it caused with the Narada having an effect on the universe. Look at the Kelvin. It gets destroyed, people die, and those people aren’t around that maybe would have been around during TOS. Also, fleet movements, patrol patterns, priorities, exploration, technology, etc also changed.

*********************************************

I read what you are saying but you’re missing the point.
I simply feel that there should be more consequences for the red matter having been used by Spock Prime/Vulcans rather than just chocking it up to a few missing people we never knew affecting the universe.

I mean, It would account for the wonkiness of this Nu-Verse; people diving headlong into planetary atmospheres without burning up and discriminatory black holes for instance.

*****************************

But if you “get them out of the way”, the audience will feel like they were shoved in just to get them out of the way. You don’t really have to even deal with them.

********************************

Isn’t that what they did in the previous movie? Don’t blame me for that! :D

I’m simply suggesting that their presence and power be reduced, not excising them completely.

This would give other races a power vacuum to take hold of, which then fulfills the idea of an altered universe.

Isn’t that the whole concept of this Nu-Trek?

To see what-if scenarios play out… reshuffle the deck.

********************************************

I saw that angle, but it’s hard to connect two big concepts into a movie. Look at STID. You have two bad guys, Marcus and Khan. Their stories interweave together. But some people are not convinced that both of them actually worked together (even though I though they did). Some people think it would have been better to just have Marcus in the film alone.

So by that same token, the Tholians would be enough, especially if you have them presented in new and interesting angle. No webs, please! Your subplots could deal with the ship, the crew, a rescue mission, anything.

****************************************

That was not my fault! Ask the writers why that didn’t work.

I happen to believe differently, I think people would enjoy the craziness of it. But who am I, just an anonymous boob on the internet..

And yes… no webs! :)

*****************************

Hey, we’re all fanboys, we just need to factor in a bit of consideration for the art of moviemaking while we do. But at this point, I don’ t think we need a rogue Kirk. The current arc is about developing him more into the Kirk prime we’ve seen before.

*****************************************

Okay then… you have your opinion and I have mine.
At the end of the day, we are simply two aliases on the internet with no real power.

Take care! :D

182. Disinvited - June 29, 2014

One thing that could have been better explained in the 2009 movie was that the Romulans are Vulcans who disagreed with the whole logic over emotion philosophy. I think it should have been explained in some way for general audiences that it isn’t that the Vulcanoids have feelings (that part was pretty well covered) but their emotions are stronger than other humanoids, even humans, and nearly lead to their own self-extinction.

That explanation would have gone a lot farther towards understanding the special sort of madness that Nero and his crew were driven to by these emotions more powerful than humans could relate. But nuParamount got the heebie-jeebies over anything resembling fanservice so such exposition had to go.

183. Disinvited - June 29, 2014

#175. Riker’s Mailbox – June 28, 2014

OK. Thanks for explaining. But you do realize, as he has pointed out now and again, that he is in the biz and plans to be for a long time so you are never going to get a, frank, Shia LaBeouf-style answer from him like “Yeah, that was one chew toy I just couldn’t get JJ to let go of.”? Well, at least not for 20 years assuming this site and we all are still around to hear it.

184. Kathleen - June 29, 2014

CITY OF THE EDGE OF FOREVER time travel

185. Keachick (Rose) - June 29, 2014

#182 – I assume that this post is in response to mine at #179. At least, you are not ignoring me and are prepared to discuss intelligently with me…

I agree with you that Nero’s Romulan logic/emotional makeup could have been explained better, but I only had to look at some of human behaviour to understand what Nero could be going through. That does not excuse his actions though.

186. Keachick (Rose) - June 29, 2014

My attempt to address some of the arguments made against these two latest Star Trek films –

There is a question that has been going around in my head for a while and I cannot accept the default answers that others have given and that is – why would Kirk lie (by omission) about what happened on Nibiru?

If we accept the fact, put forward by Pike in both movies, about Kirk – ie “aptitude test results off the charts”, “I saw greatness in you” and it is a given fact that this same Kirk did in three years what other bright people take four years to achieve, without cheating (barring the controversial KM test simulation), then it is clear that this alt. James T Kirk is a very bright individual, who would have a good grasp of SF regulations, protocols and report writing requirements.

So why? At the beginning, when Pike called Kirk out for his lying, it was a case, for me, of “Eh…whaat?” but as the film progressed, one possible answer became evident. James T Kirk was genuinely afraid (but did not know why exactly) and his intuition told him not to report the actual events (describing it all as “uneventful”). However, he did not consult his senior officers when reports were being filed, which is how he was found out…

As the film progresses, it is apparent to me that Kirk had reason to be afraid, very afraid and that is confirmed for me when Marcus tells him that he was never going to spare Kirk or his crew.

What Kirk and co. did on Nibiru, ie actually saving a race, even a world, from the destructive forces of a supervolcano, by using available technology, at great risk to the lives of actual crew involved in preventing this disaster, really, really bothered Marcus and those like him – because what they did on Nibiru was the very antithesis to Marcus style warmongering. Another clue here is that Pike was shut out of discussions re Kirk violating the Prime Directive and lying on his report, when surely there would have been no need for that. Marcus had no more respect for the tenets of the Prime Directive than he had for much else.

Admiral Marcus’s definition of prime directive – it is not OK to intervene to save a race from disaster (and doing everything reasonable to maintain distance – no actual contact), but it is OK to fire on another world in the hope that a criminal would be killed.

Kirk was so overwhelmed by grief because of the death of his captain and mentor, Christopher Pike. Unfortunately, this made him an easy target for unscrupulous, emotionally/spiritually challenged individuals like Marcus. Kirk’s “mistake” was to actually care, give a damn about others, want to live and let live. What’s more, Kirk had the smarts, the energy, the independence of thought, to be a real concern and even source of envy/jealousy for people like Marcus, who had become so corrupt and cruel. Pike was similar to Kirk, so had to be got rid of as well. Fortunately, for Marcus, Khan did his dirty work for him, but is that not also how it is, where people like Marcus are concerned, ie using others to do their dirty work…

When Pike recruited Kirk to Starfleet (ST09), he noted that he felt that Starfleet had lost something, gone astray somehow (Pike could not fully articulate his own intuitive concerns at that point either) but thought there was something very fine, very good (not obvious to most) in the young Kirk he met in the bar, with handkerchiefs hanging from his nostrils, that Starfleet needed. He was right.

187. LogicalLeopard - June 29, 2014

180. Keachick (Rose) – June 29, 2014

#177 – Are you not Spooky replying to LogicalLeopold?
****************************************

On the above post, LogicalLeopold is saying Hi to LL – him/herself…

Sorry, that was me responding to Spooky, I just forgot to copy and paste his name and forgot to omit mine for clarity!

188. LogicalLeopard - June 29, 2014

181. spooky – June 29, 2014

I read what you are saying but you’re missing the point.
I simply feel that there should be more consequences for the red matter having been used by Spock Prime/Vulcans rather than just chocking it up to a few missing people we never knew affecting the universe.

**********************************

I get what you’re saying. But the thing is, the red matter never produced an effect on the universe other than making black holes that pulled ships through time, right? The few missing people, and the massive realignments it caused is really enough to affect the universe.

**************************************

I mean, It would account for the wonkiness of this Nu-Verse; people diving headlong into planetary atmospheres without burning up and discriminatory black holes for instance.

*****************************

Well, how would red matter account for people diving headlong into atmospheres and not burning up? That’s just space suit technology. Apparently, Nu-trek at least has suits that can survive reentry and volcanoes. *L* It does explain the black holes though….

*****************************

Isn’t that what they did in the previous movie? Don’t blame me for that! :D

*********************************

*L* I’m not blaming you for that, I’m just pointing out the same criticism. Although I don’t think they really “got the Klingons out of the way” because they’re still dealing with them. Your story would actually “get the Klingon’s out of the way. It’s interesting, but like I said, it would be interesting to do the movie just about that. It’d kind of be like a new version of The Undiscovered Country – a disaster that the Klingons need help with, and receive help from Starfleet and ultimately build bridges.

********************************
I’m simply suggesting that their presence and power be reduced, not excising them completely.

This would give other races a power vacuum to take hold of, which then fulfills the idea of an altered universe.

Isn’t that the whole concept of this Nu-Trek?

To see what-if scenarios play out… reshuffle the deck.

********************************************
No that’s very true. My apolgies, I responded to your post rather quickly, and I don’t think I fully appreciated what you meant by “get them out of the way” initially.

**************************

That was not my fault! Ask the writers why that didn’t work.

I happen to believe differently, I think people would enjoy the craziness of it. But who am I, just an anonymous boob on the internet..

And yes… no webs! :)

***********************************

Are you talking about the craziness of all of the plots together? If so, remember that non-fans wouldn’t be able to appreciate the crazyiness of it, because they wouldn’t be familiar with the different entities.
*****************************

Okay then… you have your opinion and I have mine.
At the end of the day, we are simply two aliases on the internet with no real power.

Take care! :D

***********************************

No power, but tons of imagination! That’s the great thing about bouncing ideas off one another in this forum. We can look at things, have dissenting opinions, agree with one another, disagree with one another, but at the end of the day, no one is right, no one is wrong, and we all benefit from each other’s input!

189. LogicalLeopard - June 29, 2014

186. Keachick (Rose) – June 29, 2014

My attempt to address some of the arguments made against these two latest Star Trek films –

There is a question that has been going around in my head for a while and I cannot accept the default answers that others have given and that is – why would Kirk lie (by omission) about what happened on Nibiru?

If we accept the fact, put forward by Pike in both movies, about Kirk – ie “aptitude test results off the charts”, “I saw greatness in you” and it is a given fact that this same Kirk did in three years what other bright people take four years to achieve, without cheating (barring the controversial KM test simulation), then it is clear that this alt. James T Kirk is a very bright individual, who would have a good grasp of SF regulations, protocols and report writing requirements.

*****************************************

There’s a readily apparent answer to your question, although it’s kind of an unsettling one: Kirk doesn’t care about regulations when they don’t suit his own moral compass, whatever direction that “compass” takes him in.

I submit that he wasn’t scared, he knew that Starfleet would condemn his actions and he didn’t want anyone hassling him for what he believed was “right.” His intelligence and aptitude has nothing to do with his own personal honesty level, and arrogance.

I also submit that this is the same characteristic that Prime Kirk has. Kirk falsified the FIRST REPORT HE EVER FILED ON TELEVISION *LOL* In “Where No Man Has Gone Before, Michell and Degner get these powers, Mitchell kills Degner, and Kirk kills Mitchell

Log entry? Both officers gave their lives in the performance of duty.

Speaking of log entries, did Prime Kirk even FILE a report to Starfleet on Khan after Space Seed? You’d think that if he filed a report, Captain Terrell wouldn’t have been looking for a suitable planet for the Genesis planet in the same system that a group of supermen was building a colony. There should have been an alert, like on the planet where those big headed telepathic aliens were – Khan and Co are as big a threat as they ever were.

Prime Kirk also is the same guy who walked out of a meeting with Starfleet Command and said, “The word is no, therefore I am going anyway,” and steals a starship on the off chance he can save his dead buddy, blows up said Starship, steals another from an Empire which could bring them to the brink of war.

The only difference between nu-Kirk and Prime Kirk is that nobody lets nu-Kirk get away with anything. Nu Kirk cheats on a test, and he almost gets put on academic probation pending a decision (which doesn’t look like it’ll go in his favor) Prime Kirk cheats on a test, and he gets A MEDAL! *LOL* Nu-Kirk breaks the prime directive, and he gets demoted. Prime Kirk breaks the prime directive every other episode of TOS and he’s lauded as one of the best captains to ever sit in a chair and promoted to Admiral.

190. LogicalLeopard - June 29, 2014

almost gets put on academic probation = gets put on academic probation

191. LogicalLeopard - June 29, 2014

182. Disinvited – June 29, 2014

Well, one reason why such an exposition wasn’t necessary because unlike fans, who may have first seen the TOS Romulans and needed ot know the difference between Vulcans and Romulans, the TNG era Romulans look different enough from Vulcans that people knew they were a different species and didn’t necessarily notice any physical similarities with Vulcans. Plus they were all bald and tattooed, which made them look even more different.

But as far as describing how Nero could be driven to emotions that humans couldn’t describe, I agree with you – it would have been nice to have a bit of exposition on why Nero went so crazy, but the funny thing is is, Romulans are never portrayed like that on screen. It’s logical, and probably true, but we’ve never seen Romulans act like that, that I can recall.

192. Disinvited - June 29, 2014

#191. LogicalLeopard – June 29, 2014

But, as I recall, that’s where you are mistaken, the Romulans had only been isolated from the Vulcans by a span of 200 years after fleeing Vulcan. I think TNG tried to retcon that to somewhere around after Surak (1600 years ago) still not enough time for speciation (As populations of humans on Earth isolated for that time and beyond easily disprove that humanoid speciation occurs in that short of a time span.) to have occurred. And ENTERPRISE established that they were similar enough to return to Vulcan and spy with ease.

Their only “differences” in looks from standard variations in the Vulcan population were the cultural aesthetics of cosmetics and their own obvious attempts in regards to genetic manipulation as revealed in NEMESIS.

FWIW several of the movies’ scripts explored that Spock in III, a true hybrid, impregnated Saavik who under the “Romulans are a separate species” theory would herself be a different type of hybrid. As it is, the chance of a hybrid impregnating a member of a specie of one its parents with a viable fetus resulting, is extremely remote but possible. Two different types of hybrids successfully mating in the wild as it were and producing a viable fetus is virtually impossible. And with Spock’s backstory and science that his hybridization had to be done with an artificial assist, even more so. And yet Harv did try to reintroduce it on screen via scripts more than once. My point only being that the only way this could remotely fly is if the Romulan/Vulcan “hybrid” Saavik was in reality no such thing.

193. Keachick (Rose) - June 29, 2014

“There’s a readily apparent answer to your question, although it’s kind of an unsettling one: Kirk doesn’t care about regulations when they don’t suit his own moral compass, whatever direction that “compass” takes him in.

I submit that he wasn’t scared, he knew that Starfleet would condemn his actions and he didn’t want anyone hassling him for what he believed was “right.” His intelligence and aptitude has nothing to do with his own personal honesty level, and arrogance.”

This also poses an interesting situation – where following a particular regulation goes against a person’s own conscience, ethical values and the possible condemnation or worse they fear they will face. What to do? Certainly, Kirk’s level of honesty in not reporting what he did and why also requires explanation and I tried to give one possible answer.

Given what we learn later in the movie about who is in charge of Starfleet and who cannot help but set the overall tone and kinds of behaviour. Marcus was busy being involved in secret operations, some of them in direct violation of Starfleet principles etc. Dishonesty, deceit, “fudging” stuff starts to become what people do, without openly admitting to it…This was the kind of environment that he was introduced to, as well as another kind which calls him out before hundreds of people to answer as to why he “cheated” on a test that he honestly felt was a cheat in itself and have his own dead father brought up – I mean WTF?… something is wrong with Starfleet at its core, which unfortunately means that Kirk, being the kind of independent person that he is, becomes haphazard when it comes to following rules just for the sake of following rules, when he faces a situation where he feels the rules are wrong or do not apply. I do not like it, but I can understand it. Neither did Pike like it, which is why he was angry that Kirk lied. Pike had hoped that Kirk was strong, sensible and knowing enough to rise above it. Spock was more on track in this respect.

I think that it is more a case of lack of self-confidence and experience, couched in an apparent “recklessness” or “arrogance”, that undermined his ability to stand up for what he believes is right and stand by his decisions. It does seem that, while Spock reported events, he also embraced “technicality” in that if they had been completely successful, no Nibiru inhabitant would have heard or seen anything, other than experiencing relief that the volcano had finally ceased spewing forth, something which Spock, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, Dr McCoy felt was acceptable and did not violate the Prime Directive…Pike argued that point with Spock. In other words, what constitutes violation of the Prime Directive is not so clear cut always. There is the letter and then there is the spirit and they are not always one and the same…

194. Keachick (Rose) - June 29, 2014

“Log entry? Both officers gave their lives in the performance of duty.”

From memory, in a way, they did. When Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner became *possessed* by that power, they were no longer themselves anymore, however it was through the course of doing their duties, that they became exposed and ended up dying as a result.

TOS was a bit loose when it came to showing Kirk doing administration duties – sometimes. Often times though, Kirk did accurately report what was going on etc.

195. LogicalLeopard - June 30, 2014

Given what we learn later in the movie about who is in charge of Starfleet and who cannot help but set the overall tone and kinds of behaviour. Marcus was busy being involved in secret operations, some of them in direct violation of Starfleet principles etc. Dishonesty, deceit, “fudging” stuff starts to become what people do, without openly admitting to it…This was the kind of environment that he was introduced to, as well as another kind which calls him out before hundreds of people to answer as to why he “cheated” on a test that he honestly felt was a cheat in itself and have his own dead father brought up – I mean WTF?…

***************************

He wasn’t exposed to Marcus’s operations, neither was anyone else in Starfleet that wasn’t in Section 31. But I will agree with you that he’s receiving contrary information. Starfleet Captains in particular appear to be selected and prized for their ability to act independently and utilize unique problem solving. But when Kirk does that, he gets penalized. Maybe that’s what Pike was talking about, when he said Starfleet needed more people like Kirk. They lost it for a while, but Pike wanted to bring it back. So unlike the people in the Prime universe who never lost sight of those qualities, and gave Kirk a medal, the people in the nu Universe frown upon it, and punish Kirk for his independence. So, it’s almost like he’s set up to fail.

**************************************

something is wrong with Starfleet at its core, which unfortunately means that Kirk, being the kind of independent person that he is, becomes haphazard when it comes to following rules just for the sake of following rules, when he faces a situation where he feels the rules are wrong or do not apply. I do not like it, but I can understand it. Neither did Pike like it, which is why he was angry that Kirk lied. Pike had hoped that Kirk was strong, sensible and knowing enough to rise above it. Spock was more on track in this respect.

**************************************

It takes a strong regard for duty to reign in natural ability and creativity. Pike was disappointed because Kirk hadn’t formed that sense of duty yet.

************************************

I think that it is more a case of lack of self-confidence and experience, couched in an apparent “recklessness” or “arrogance”, that undermined his ability to stand up for what he believes is right and stand by his decisions. It does seem that, while Spock reported events, he also embraced “technicality” in that if they had been completely successful, no Nibiru inhabitant would have heard or seen anything, other than experiencing relief that the volcano had finally ceased spewing forth, something which Spock, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, Dr McCoy felt was acceptable and did not violate the Prime Directive…Pike argued that point with Spock. In other words, what constitutes violation of the Prime Directive is not so clear cut always. There is the letter and then there is the spirit and they are not always one and the same…

********************************

True, and maybe that’s why Pike was disappointed. It takes a pretty savvy Captain to know where the line is, and he probably trusted in Kirk’s natural abilities so much that he thought he could determine where the line was. Because he didn’t have the experience. I don’t think it was a lack of self confidence at all, Kirk has that in spades. Its just the experience that he needed.

196. LogicalLeopard - June 30, 2014

“Log entry? Both officers gave their lives in the performance of duty.”

From memory, in a way, they did. When Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner became *possessed* by that power, they were no longer themselves anymore, however it was through the course of doing their duties, that they became exposed and ended up dying as a result.

********************************

Apparently, Kirk felt the same way, which is why he logged it like that. But that is NOT the truth, by a long shot. And it’s irresponsible of him to not log the full details. What happens if another ship finds themselves in the same predicament? It would be nice to already know how a captain handled the situation, that’s the entire point of making a log. It’s like what I said about Ceti Alpha IV or V, or whichever it was. Terell comes bumbling along, and doesn’t appear to know anything about Khan being in the vicinity, to my recollection.

**********************************

TOS was a bit loose when it came to showing Kirk doing administration duties – sometimes. Often times though, Kirk did accurately report what was going on etc.

*************************************

Yes, sometimes he did, sometimes he didn’t. I think he didn’t whenever it didn’t suit him personally. And that’s pretty reckless, when you think about it. If indeed he didn’t file a report on Khan, how many deaths are on his hands? Stranding a group of geniuses on a planet is a great idea – for the short run. It’s essentially a prison, but gives them the opportunity to live and determine the course of their life. But if Starfleet knows about it, they could place a warning marker, encourage their people to stay out of the system (so they won’t be conned into rescued them), and check on them regularly.

It’s never said outright (I don’t believe, I could be wrong) that Kirk didn’t file a report, but it certainly looks like he didn’t. I bet his log entry read, “Captain’s log, Stardate ____________. Day uneventful.” *LOL*

197. LogicalLeopard - June 30, 2014

192. Disinvited – June 29, 2014

You’re talking about “in universe information” about the Romulans and Vulcans, that fans like ourselves know. I’m not talking about that. I’m saying that the general public didn’t need any information on the Romulans and Vulcans because to a person who is not a fan, they don’t look the same.

If you don’t know much about Star Trek, and you look at the Vulcans, with similar haircuts, robes, etc, and you look at the Romulans, with their bald heads, forehead ridges, and tattoos that you have no idea whether or not they’re tattoos or natural markings, you won’t immediately wonder if they’re related to each other because they look so different. So you don’t need any explanation about how they are related.

However, if you saw any of TOS Romulan episodes, you’d wonder what was going on between the two races. That’s all I was saying.

198. Curious Cadet - June 30, 2014

@117. Mark,
“I want a Christian character to reflect me.”

Not if you’re a creationist — that’s fundamentally at odds with Star Trek. Though I would love to see an episode that debates it with such a character. About the only thing that makes sense is that Q is God and did in fact create the Earth in six literal days, 6000 years ago; but in typical Q fashion, faked the actual age so as to conform with the natural laws of physics.

I agree with you otherwise, mostly, Trek’s message of tolerance should apply to theology as well and would make for some interesting episodes.

The problem I have with your reply is that it seems to be motivated by the gay character discussion … In which case you are equating the CHOICE of religious practice with sexuality. Race (species), color, and sexual orientation, are not choices, and as such Trek should endeavor to depict as wide a representation of these aspects of humanity as possible. In particular anything other than heterosexual characters represented are vitally important so that positive role models can be shown to those who are often repressed and rejected by society, and show there is hope for the future. Once this has been addressed, then they can worry about equally representing all of the myriad of theological choices people make.

199. InherentWisdom - June 30, 2014

@78 – Precisely.

@89 –

1. Trek doesn’t need to be diluted by going out of the way to point out a character is gay. Too much screen time to bother with doing it correctly.

2. You have an imagination, don’t you? I mean, you do like Star Trek. Leave it at that.

3. The subject has been covered in previous Trek shows.

4. I don’t know who you’ve been talking to, but I have NEVER heard of ANY heterosexuals referring to Trek in that way.

5. Do you even know what the word “phobia” means? I’m straight. I also believe that homosexual behavior is disgusting. That does NOT equate ‘fear’. I do NOT fear you or any other self-proclaimed gay person. I simply do NOT like what you like & I find it repulsive.

6. Anyone who claims it’s not about sex, it’s about love is lying to themselves. Psychology.

7. Whether you believe in evolution or creation, homosexual behavior is NOT natural. Creation has a Creator who claims the act is disgusting (I agree with Him) and who gave a command to procreate. Evolution is the survival of the fittest through procreation. In either case, homosexuals cannot procreate without someone of the opposite sex. Ergo, unnatural. And if you do in fact believe in evolution, then by your very system of belief, you & everyone who acts as you do would become extinct if left to your own devices.

7. Homosexuality is a choice, no one is born that way (refer to point 6). It’s also a psychological disorder.

8. You want to play in the sewer, feel free…just don’t tell me about it.

200. Disinvited - June 30, 2014

#197. LogicalLeopard – June 30, 2014

But that’s just it, the information that is important to the uninitiated in my point is that the Romulans feel emotion more intensely than humans. The only reason mentioning the Vulcans comes into play is to establish that such emotional Vulcanoids are extremely dangerous to the point of nearly destroying themselves.

Without this info, Nero is just a generic badguy and why he’s so dangerous is muted.

201. Curious Cadet - June 30, 2014

@116. Disinvited,
“Bob’s able to pick the one split where the two ship’s did somehow become entangled and both pop into the same universe.”

I don’t necessarily read it this way.

The simplistic explanation is that we actually witness the universe split … Twice. The first time, when Nero emerges, and we follow that reality, the second time when Spock emerges, and we follow that reality (rather than the one where Spock gets crushed by the collapsing black hole). So we don’t actually end up in the same universe in which we started. One could say any good movie follows the most interesting splits of the universe to tell the most compelling story. While every single moment in time represents a myriad of possible realities splitting off from the previous, Nero & Spock represent major upsets by also altering the timeline.

One could say our consciousness represents the narrative of which we follow blindly through our lives, in which case the more interesting our lives become is directly related to our perspective. We consciously choose to follow the path of least resistance, or one full of challenges. Perhaps the likes of Tony Robbins affect more than our pocketbooks, but also our path through he multi-verse.

Of course you could look at this any way you want, the existence of concrete evidence for any one proof being non-existent. I believe Orci explained this by relying on time dilation, but in doing so ignores his own premise. Perhaps he did that to keep from confusing the fans any more than he already did … who knows. But I’m pretty sure he could have chosen some different splits in the STID realities to follow and had a better movie.

202. TUP - June 30, 2014

105. Keachick (Rose) – June 27, 2014
#74 – I still have a concern about Orci’s contradictions in the sense “this is an alternate universe so we can do whatever we want” versus “these will be the characters almost as you remember from TOS”.”

Really? There is no contradiction here. Once again, given your post after this one, you are confused. Yes, the film makers can do whatever they want, more or less, given that they are still constrained by certain Trek *realities*. These characters are much the same as the ones we know from the TOS series, however they get to experience (slightly) different events at different ages and how this impacts on them.

How difficult is that to understand, honestly?

****I’d type slower but I dont think it would make much of a difference for you. You’re confused and I apologize if my remarks go over your head.

203. TUP - June 30, 2014

@jemini

My point about the legitimacy of the Abrams Universe is their retconning time travel to the multiple world theory. When TOS characters travelled through time, the stakes were high because whatever they did in the past impacted their future. They then returned to *their* future.

By changing that, they removed the stakes.

Ill give credit where it;s due – making Star Trek a “sequel” and a prequel was brilliant. It showed a surprising amount of respect for Trekdom. But the execution was flawed. TOS, Abrams-verse, Mirror, they are all fiction and dont really exist. But thats not what we’re talking about. We’re talking characters we love and wanting the best possible creativity for them. The characters in Star Trek and STID werent the characters from TOS. So why should we care?

Transformers 4 was dreadful. And will be a HUGE success. You cant measure quality by the quantity of revenue generated. I want more. I want quality and quantity. The problems with the modern films were all fixable issues. Thats the sad part. Its not like they made a movie that just isnt for fans anymore. They made a movie for fans that was filled with mistakes, bad ideas and lazy writing. It could have been so much more.

204. TUP - June 30, 2014

Nero’s motivations were not so much weak as they were undeveloped. By the time we see him, he’s a raving lunatic bent on revenge. We never get to see why. Its never really explained other than the Spock Prime mindmeld which is sort of cheap. It’s like picking up a great novel, begin reading at chapter 8 and then by chapter 12, you read a one page synopsis of chapters 1-7. it was weak and lazy.

Im not sure Paramount would have let them do a stronger sequel, ie. have 30-40 minutes in the TNG time before going back to the past but that would have made a lot more sense (and allowed for a Captain Riker cameo).

I hope Orci and the goofs who did STID watch Days of Future Past to learn how to do a generations-spanning time travel epic (with inherent canon issues) correctly.

205. Keachick (Rose) - June 30, 2014

Wow, I stand by my view that you, TUP, present such unsympathetic and shallow viewpoints.

Yes, we do see why Nero went crazy. It stood out in HUGE NEON SIGNS. He had LOST HIS ENTIRE WORLD and falsely believed that prime Spock deliberately failed to save his world, as Spock promised he would. How much motivation do you need?

Many people in this world right now behave like raving lunatics bent on revenge over far less, far less…

Your posts come across as lazy and totally lacking in sympathy (for the obvious and ongoing pain that Nero suffered) and insight. I really doubt you would actually recognize what is *correct*.

I am just dumbfounded and saddened by what I have read over the last five years since coming onto the Internet and reading some of the comments made about these new Star Trek movies.

206. TUP - June 30, 2014

Keachick, you are such a simpleton. Its actually difficult for me to dumb down my posts enough for you. Im not sure I should even try.

There was nothing unsympathetic and shallow about my post. I wasn’t going for sympathy so that word doesnt even apply. Sort of a WTF moment there…

I feel no sympathy for Nero. He was a one-note mustache twirling bad guy. The only extent into his “good” self we get is Spock’s story of the destruction of his home world.

How about Spock says to him “good news, Nero. There are multiple universes. So in the one we came from, your planet was destroyed. But its perfectly fine now. Lets go there. In a couple hundred years your wife will be born. No problem.”

Nero was one note (but portrayed very well by the actor) because we didnt see or know him before his fall. We didnt care. And the red matter and planet destroying drill…those are not things easily embraced by viewers. I like intelligent concepts but those were just meh whatever…sort of new age techno babble. They need to ground the issues more.

207. JD - June 30, 2014

Please, no gay character. It’s not necessary and would just be pandering.

208. Finnigan - June 30, 2014

He promises “less secrecy”, does that mean they aren’t going to be stinking liars like they were regarding Khan?

209. Disinvited - June 30, 2014

# 206. TUP – June 30, 2014

” How about Spock says to him “good news, Nero. There are multiple universes. So in the one we came from, your planet was destroyed. But its perfectly fine now. Lets go there. In a couple hundred years your wife will be born. No problem.”” — TUP

Not just that, but old Spock popping up shows time dilation works just fine so he could show Nero the way to immediately be with her from Nero’s perspective.

The only fly in the ointment is how to deal with Nero and his crew’s altversions of themselves. Maybe katra merges?

210. boborci - June 30, 2014

208. Finnigan – June 30, 2014

Check the record. I, personally, never lied.

211. Keachick (Rose) - June 30, 2014

“I feel no sympathy for Nero. He was a one-note mustache twirling bad guy. The only extent into his “good” self we get is Spock’s story of the destruction of his home world.”

Perfect example of simpleton, clicheed garbage. You are becoming “famous” for it.

I never intimated that Nero was “good” in what he subsequently did in destroying Vulcan and attempting to destroy earth, but I understood his motivations and could sympathize with the ongoing pain at what had happened to his world, his life. Understanding and sympathizing with someone’s grief, pain, reasons for his homicidal craziness does not mean that I condone his actions or consider them to be in any way “good”.

That fact that you cannot get this into your thick head does indeed make you a shallow thinker.

“Not just that, but old Spock popping up shows time dilation works just fine so he could show Nero the way to immediately be with her from Nero’s perspective.”

Incorrect. I do not think that Spock would know or be able to repeat that time dilation scenario. Nero’s wife, in this alternate universe, will not be born for almost 100 years, by which time, Nero would be a great deal older than her and she would consider him at best an older, slightly weird stranger or at worst, a dirty old man coming onto young women…

For Nero, his wife is dead. I think it is the realization that he is in another similar universe (he finds this out when he meets Captain Robau), that there is no wife, not at least for another 100 years, and that he and his small crew are out of place and time – this is a one/two catastrophe for Nero – he has not only lost his world but his universe. I believe that realization could send a lot of us a little crazy, as in mentally unbalanced, leading even to a complete mental breakdown.

As for Nero’s motivations for destroying Vulcan and then going after Federation planets, starting with earth, watch Star Trek (2009) again, and this time PAY ATTENTION and you might actually learn something.

I do not need anything “dumbed down” for me, but clearly you do, and even then, you still don’t get it…:(

212. Mike Barnett - June 30, 2014

207. JD – June 30, 2014
“Please, no gay character. It’s not necessary and would just be pandering.”

Along the same line, don’t pander to the trekkies by having any of the TOS actors, unless they are a key part of the story. Nimoy in ST09 was perfect and it also allowed the franchise to be handed off to a new batch of actors. Nimoy in STID seemed a bit off to me. Cameo’s like that tend to take me out of the story and my reaction to Nimoy in STID was ‘oh look, they got Nimoy in nuTrek again’ instead of ‘wow, there’s Spock’ – -

213. Tyler - June 30, 2014

Nimoy won’t ever return he said it himself. He’s retired the only way we get a TOS crewmember would be takei shatner would be too expensive due to him being a blow hard. The only plausible villain that could be in this one has to be the Borg. The Narada was made with Borg technology therefore it could happen.

214. Trekbilly - June 30, 2014

Am I the only one who finds Keachick to be extremely rude, condescending and annoying? Where’s the stage hook??

215. Ahmed - June 30, 2014

@ 210. boborci – June 30, 2014

“Check the record. I, personally, never lied.”

That is correct. Simon Pegg & Alice Eve, among others, are the ones who lied openly about Khan.

========================
Simon Pegg Swears Khan Is Not The Villain In Star Trek 2

“It’s not Khan. That’s a myth. Everyone’s saying it is, but it’s not. I think people just want to have a scoop. It annoys me – it’s beyond the point to just ferret around for spoilers all the time to try to be the first to break them.”

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Simon-Pegg-Swears-Khan-Villain-Star-Trek-2-31145.html

————

Alice Eve Swears The Star Trek Into Darkness Villain Isn’t Khan

Alice Eve was the latest Into Darkness actor to say that Cumbercatch is “not playing Khan,” which she repeated on the red carpet of the BAFTAs. Listen to her say it yourself (at the 00:36 mark of the following clip), and decide whether you believe her.

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Alice-Eve-Swears-Star-Trek-Darkness-Villain-Isn-t-Khan-35752.html

========================

216. Ahmed - June 30, 2014

@ 213. Trekbilly – June 30, 2014

“Am I the only one who finds Keachick to be extremely rude, condescending and annoying? Where’s the stage hook??”

Nope, join the club my friend!

217. Disinvited - June 30, 2014

#211. Keachick (Rose) – June 30, 2014

Time dilation is the slowing down of time when traveling at relativistic speeds, i.e. close to the speed of light, which is why Spock popped out not having aged 25 years while Nero had. Nero’s Borgified ship was easily capable of relativistic speeds so as in two seconds of his perceived time he’d be a 100 years in the future. This is not the alternate universe creating time travel but the slowing of time documented even in our present time by experiments.

As for whether it is a future, with anything resembling his wife and kids in it, he has no way of knowing unless he tries and sees what’s there. He can then dispatch old Spock however he wants if he isn’t satisfied. He waited 25 years for Spock; what’s two seconds? But if he’s operating under the assumption that you claim, then why attack a Federation that’s not his universe’s Federation, a Vulcan that’s not his universe’s Vulcan, etc. Either they are, or they are not. They can’t be one way in Nero’s mind when it’s convenient for the plot and another way when it is not.

And Nero is not a human like you or I are. He is an alien. It is useful that you identify with the woe that has befallen him, but he would have been better used and more palpable as a menacing alien villain to those unfamiliar with his origins if they understood that he was feeling those feelings which we identify with, 10 times stronger than we can imagine.

Finally, if his alienness wasn’t signficant then why was he, alien?

218. Disinvited - June 30, 2014

#215. Ahmed – June 30, 2014

I think I’m going down a rabbit hole, so bear with me: Shouldn’t we have known from the fact that Paramount and Bad Robot didn’t sue their arses that they were, in fact, lying ?

219. Cygnus-X1 - June 30, 2014

201. Curious Cadet – June 30, 2014

The simplistic explanation is that we actually witness the universe split … Twice. The first time, when Nero emerges, and we follow that reality, the second time when Spock emerges, and we follow that reality (rather than the one where Spock gets crushed by the collapsing black hole). So we don’t actually end up in the same universe in which we started. One could say any good movie follows the most interesting splits of the universe to tell the most compelling story.

Yes. This is a simpler, less jargony phrasing of what I said.

220. Cygnus-X1 - June 30, 2014

210. boborci – June 30, 2014

Check the record. I, personally, never lied.

That’s true. You had the actors do the deed. Tisk, tisk…

I still remember poor Alice Eve standing there at that premiere with her poker face saying, “No,” in response to being asked if Khan was in the movie. And Quinto—I’m guessing tired from so many junkets that day—spilling the beans during one of them. I have to admit, that was a pretty awesome moment.

Lying about Khan being in the movie wouldn’t have been so awkward if there hadn’t been so many clues already out signaling that Khan was in the movie—beginning with you guys trying to cast a hispanic actor for the role of the villain, which matched up with the initial leak about Khan, and henceforth from there.

When I finally saw it in the theater, and B-Cumb did his dramatic reveal, it was an odd superposition of would-be thrill and letdown simultaneously.

And, as has been mentioned by others, it didn’t really make much sense for Khan to do the reveal in such melodramatic fashion and then get no reaction from a Kirk and Spock who have no idea who he is or why he’s like so into himself. Clearly that reveal was for the audience and not for the characters in the movie. It was a black-hatted, mustache-twirling villain moment there in the Enterprise brig, but a little pathetic in that the would-be bad-ass got chirping crickets in response to his sinister announcement.

Anyway, I have to agree with the consensus that the marketing strategy of keeping Khan a secret was a bumble. But, Paramount said jump, and you guys said “how high?”. That’s what you’re known for, and take pride in being known for, according to the industry media.

221. Cygnus-X1 - June 30, 2014

215. Ahmed – June 30, 2014

Thanks for the link.

Sorry, it wasn’t a premiere. It was BAFTA, and Alice Eve’s exact response was, “He’s not playing Khan.”

222. JSM-73 - July 1, 2014

Any chance this time we could funally break with the shackles of the past, and have NO villains or Klingons, Romulans etc. and do something NEW for this Nu-Trek? And preferably, some intelligent writing where the ‘threat’ isn’t simebody seeking revenge, but a problem that needs Kirk, Spock & McCoy working together to solve? Something thought provoking, up-lifting & memorable? All the best dramas stand the test of time, and frankly I don’t think the last two Treks would be memorable at all if they weren’t standing on the shoulders of giants.
Bring the epic quality, the GRANDEUR of space back like Star Trek The Motion Picture did, but with the heart & soul of The Voyage Home, but perhaps not quite so much slap-stick humour ;)
Movies are full of so much quick-cutting these days they often resemble TV shows. I’d live to see a more mature & restrained use of the camera this time out, have some memorably framed shots, and not be afraid to hold thise shots for a few moments. Some amazing alien temples or constructions – something organic rather than yet more starships & chrome & metal you know?
Go back to Roddenberry’s original series bible – the actual bible used for the template of the TV show – and make sure Trek stays loyal to these principles. Perhaps try and do a two hour movie that has zero fisticuffs, and a bit more intellect…
Over & out.

223. JSM-73 - July 1, 2014

Apologies for all the typos – damn virtual screens! ;)

224. spooky - July 1, 2014

199. InherentWisdom – June 30, 2014

If you actually had any wisdom at all… you’d have learned from your parental figures that “if you got nothing good to say than you should probably not say anything at all.”
This is especially true when you have no business discussing people you hate, have no real understanding about.

“6. Anyone who claims it’s not about sex, it’s about love is lying to themselves. Psychology.”

Is that your go to response, psychology?!

Additionally, how would you even know anything about what you are talking about.

You said that you are straight, good for you you’re doing a fine job representing.

What two people do in the privacy of their own home is none of your business anyway. You probably have ridiculous ideas about what goes on in the homes of people you have no business questioning.

“7. Whether you believe in evolution or creation, homosexual behavior is NOT natural. Creation has a Creator who claims the act is disgusting (I agree with Him) and who gave a command to procreate. Evolution is the survival of the fittest through procreation. In either case, homosexuals cannot procreate without someone of the opposite sex. Ergo, unnatural. And if you do in fact believe in evolution, then by your very system of belief, you & everyone who acts as you do would become extinct if left to your own devices.”

There are many creators, some of them are more evolved than your creator.
So basically, concepts like evolution are here to support your hate filled agenda?!
I’m glad science can support your distorted thoughts on how normal you are and how everything else outside of that is repulsive.
How someone like you can get through an episode of Star Trek without your head exploding is a miracle, especially with a concept like “Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations”

“7. Homosexuality is a choice, no one is born that way (refer to point 6). It’s also a psychological disorder. ”

Again, how do you know this?
Do you know everyone in the world?
A psychological disorder… really. You’re a psychologist too?

The only choice I see here is the choice you made to come on this forum to spill your venomous hate filled BS.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you sound like a moron, that’s my opinion.

“8. You want to play in the sewer, feel free…just don’t tell me about it.”

The only sewer here is your mouth, cover it with a man hole please.

And oh…. I would rather burn in hell than spend an eternity in a heaven full of a__h_les like yourself.

:D

225. Trekbilly - July 1, 2014

#216 — LMAO!! Good…just checking…

Cos…dayum…

226. LogicalLeopard - July 1, 2014

200. Disinvited – June 30, 2014
#197. LogicalLeopard – June 30, 2014 But that’s just it, the information that is important to the uninitiated in my point is that the Romulans feel emotion more intensely than humans. The only reason mentioning the Vulcans comes into play is to establish that such emotional Vulcanoids are extremely dangerous to the point of nearly destroying themselves.

Without this info, Nero is just a generic badguy and why he’s so dangerous is muted.

***********************

Oh, I understand you completely. But, you know….I don’t even think that was their reasoning in the first place. Romulans are never displayed to be as passionate as this, which is a real shortcoming, in my opinion. I know they’re sneaky and secretive, but I would expect them to be more passionate like….say the Andorians as portrayed on Enterprise. Romulans are usually shown as being pretty bland.

So to make a long story short, not only do I wish Romulan passion would have been pointed out as a reason behind Nero’s revenge, like you say, but I wish it would have been pointed out ALL THROUGHOUT TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT.

227. LogicalLeopard - July 1, 2014

198. Curious Cadet – June 30, 2014

Christianity doesn’t necessarily equate with creationism. It would be interesting to see a Christian character, or see a church service in Star Trek, to particularly see how it has adapted to the concept of alien life. Creationism is not as huge a deal as people make it to be. But the presence of alien life would produce a huge amount of controversy. Not that Christianity excludes alien life, but it certainly doesn’t include it. An essential part of Christianity is that Christ’s sacrifice is needed to atone for the sin that has been ingrained in man since Adam. So, would a Bolian need to be saved? A Klingon? A Vulcan? Interesting…..

As far as religion being a choice….well, we’re already having a fight about homosexuality on this board, and I don’t want to get into that, but I think that some things in life may not necessarily be conscious choice, including religion and sexuality. As a Christian, I recognize that you need to actually make a conscious choice to start the process (Repentance, baptism, indwelling of the Holy Spirit) , but there are many people of many religions where no one sat down and told them to choose. True, in some parts of the world, you can’t make a different choice and live. As far as sexuality, both heterosexuals and homosexuals have preferences that they flat out weren’t born with. They may not have “chosen” them, but that doesn’t mean they were born with them. I don’t know if I ever said to myself, “I like women with this size chest, or this size posterior” but that developed throughout my upbringing. And different people feel differently.

228. Disinvited - July 1, 2014

#226. LogicalLeopard – July 1, 2014

Agreed. And as much as I don’t want to feed something that I’m not entirely certain came from an artistic sensibility on their part, if their narrative needed a hot babe/beefcake take, I would have understood something establishing such Romulan passions.

229. TUP - July 1, 2014

To those who find Keachick very rude, yes, I agree. Do they not warn or ban users here?

The reason these writers needed to embrace the idea of multiple universes was so that anyone even remotely knowedgable of Trek wouldnt say “why dont they just send Spock back to his time”. The idea ofcourse is that he cant return to his time.

The Kirk & Spock from TOS would have replicated the red matter black hole and sent Nero and Spock Prime back in time to save Romulous and thus save Vulcan in the process. Hell, THAT’S a way more interesting and epic story then we ended up with.

The whole secrecy thing is such a joke. And shame on Orci for being so childish “nah nah I never lied nah nah wasnt me nah nah”. You want an award? Members of your production including the actors were straight out lying. You had nothing to do with that? Cause if thats me, Im telling the actors who worked for me to STOP lying. If only to protect their reputations.

The secrecy is like over-bearing parents trying to keep their teenagers from going out in the world. If your kids WANT to do drugs, they are going to do them regardless of whether you lock the medicine cabinet. Im a spoiler junky. Knowing or not knowing has zero impact on my enjoyment of a film. THose like me that want to know will end up finding out. We all KNEW Khan was in it so what did you actually prevent? All you did was keep it secret from those that arent spoiler junkies. And how did those people react to the big reveal? silence or laughter in my theatre.

They should have been out in front of Khan when they had to cast BC. It took me right out of the movie trying to buy him as Khan. Fantastic actor. Not right for Khan at all, especially how he was written. He was not written as Khan. He was not portrayed as Khan. He didnt look like Khan. He didnt act like Khan. He didnt speak like Khan. And he had powers that Khan didnt have. So why the hell make him Khan? That will end up as an historic franchise blunder. 100 years from now people will still talk about that one.

230. Trekbilly - July 1, 2014

#229 — I don’t know if anyone gets banned around here anymore. Anthony Pascale used to be the banning King of the online Trek universe. Since he left, I have no idea.

Even if Keachick got banned, she’d probably just come back as The Real Keachick or another name…ugh…

I just don’t understand the need some people have to be condescending and rude for — basically no reason. :-/

231. Cygnus-X1 - July 1, 2014

229. TUP – July 1, 2014

I would advise you just to ignore her. You’re not going to get anywhere by arguing.

I agree with you on the Khan points.

However, I have to defend Orci on the time-travel device.

They made it a universe-hop (as opposed to a straight, Back to the Future-style time-time travel) in order to obviate the Grandfather Paradox, which was a good consideration on their part, and by extension, in order to avoid the implications of changing Trek canon henceforth from Nero’s point of entry into the past.

Orci spoke extracurricularly about having based the universe-hop/time-travel device of ST09 on the MWI—it’s the one solid scientific concept that BR has employed in either of its movies, and I give them credit for that—but nearly all of the discussion and exploration of the concept happened outside of the movie. The movie, itself, spent a total of 30 seconds on it, and it wasn’t all that clearly explained during those 30 seconds, never mind the characters failing to discuss the implications of what must have been the most mind-blowing event they’d ever experienced in their lives—a spaceship coming through a black hole from another universe! Eh, whatever…Alt Spock kind of explained it…Alt Kirk is probably still confused, but let’s get on with the action! Can’t get enough of that action!

Anyway, the point being, given the goals of the writers, they could have had Spock Prime and Nero save the Romulus from a closely-related, neighboring timeline, but doing so would not have affected the destruction of Romulus in the Prime Timeline.

There is, however, a way out for future writers who don’t want to be saddled with the capricious decisions of the BR writers. They can simply premise their stories upon the notion that the allegedly “Prime Timeline” events of ST09 did not, in fact, occur in the Prime Timeline, but rather in a closely-related, neighboring timeline. In that scenario, the Spock and Nero who messed about with red matter and whatnot would have been alternate versions, themselves.

232. Keachick (Rose) - July 1, 2014

I see that my post to Matt Wright is not here anymore.

To those who care to be interested in what I have to say –

On this very thread, what I do find *interesting* is what Trekbilly has written – first we have his post at #230 – where he calls me rude and condescending and obviously thinks I should be banned from this site. Yet, scroll up and you will these posts –
#48 Keachick – “Gorn are a bore”.
#63 Trekbilly – “YOU are a bore, Keachick…” followed by this rude, presumptuous comment – “I guess you’d rather see the Klingons or Romulans for the billionth time…Talk about boring”
My response to Trekbilly at #99 – “#63 Trekbilly – I wrote that the Gorn were a bore. I never wrote that anyone posting here was. However, you did, ie being personal and rude.
“I guess you’d rather see the Klingons or Romulans for the billionth time…”
I have given no indication of that being my preference. However I do see that either or both of these races may make an appearance in the next movie, because they appear to have the largest alien populations, outside of humanity, in this part of Trek universe.”

Yet it is now Trekbilly who is busy calling me rude and condescending, when that is exactly how he has behaved towards me on this thread. You can see for yourselves, if you dare…

233. LogicalLeopard - July 2, 2014

Hey, this is an aside from what I normally talk about, but for those who are currently involved in personal sniping against each other, whether you consider it defensive or offensive, why not just leave all that alone? This is a discussion board for Star Trek. We don’t all agree with each other. But we can leave personal comments out of it. You think a person’s statement is stupid? Don’t call them a moron, just say you don’t agree with their take on the situation. Think a person is rude or condescending? Don’t talk to them. And don’t take fifty posts talking about how you aren’t going to talk to them, or how others shouldn’t talk to them, just simply say, “The tone of this conversation no longer agrees with me, I won’t be talking to you for the near future about this.” And then DON’T. I would say that we’re all adults here, but I don’t know that to be true. Just if you’re going to ignore each other, ignore each other, don’t go on for several posts debating the issue. That accomplishes nothing, because if a person doesn’t like you, they don’t like you. We should all be mature enough to deal with people who we don’t like, even exchange ideas with those we don’t like, because that’s what we have to do every day in the real world. And if you can’t exchange ideas with people you don’t like, good thing this is the internet where you don’t have to address a single post that anyone makes to you, or about you.

234. TUP - July 2, 2014

Cygnus – Great points. But I just think it eliminated the stakes. It also makes Star Trek so less interesting. So what if this Trek bombs at the box-office? Can the next group of film makers have a third universe to play in?

I wonder if a really thoughtful producer will eventually take over Trek and do what Days of Future Past did, by combining the casts and “fixing” the universes and giving fans what they really want.

The thing is, the fans are the ones they should try to placate. We’re the hard ones to impress. Yes, we will see anything, no matter how crappy, and probably multiple times. Thats why we deserve more respect. The audience at large will see any big budget blow em up. Give fans the stories they deserve while adding the big budget action stuff, dont sacrifice story for action.

I am catiously optimistic about the third one but the pressure is on Orci. You almost get the sense that he blames the failing of STID on other people so this is his chance to show us what Trek can be with a Trekkie at the helm. Unfortunately they already ruined the opportunity for the generations-spanning epic the anniversary deserves.

And dont shoe-horn Shatner in as “Uncle Sam” or whatever. Good God, the man is going to be near 90 by the time we get around to using him.

Thank God the Star Wars fans and producers dont look at their original cast as “too old”.

235. LogicalLeopard - July 2, 2014

228. Disinvited – July 1, 2014
#226. LogicalLeopard – July 1, 2014

Agreed. And as much as I don’t want to feed something that I’m not entirely certain came from an artistic sensibility on their part, if their narrative needed a hot babe/beefcake take, I would have understood something establishing such Romulan passions.

********************************

I have to say, you kind of messed me up a bit with that observation. I’m now kind of ticked off that no one ever really seriously explored that angle in the shows. I know they were supposed to represent the kind of mysterious China to the Klingon’s belligerent Russia, but seriously, would have been nice to see it. I think Diane Duane’s Rihannsu books address that, but the Romulans would have been a far better enemy if they were portrayed as passionate. Even if they nuanced it, showing them holding long grudges, engaging in acts of revenge/honor, etc.

236. LogicalLeopard - July 2, 2014

234. TUP – July 2, 2014
Cygnus – Great points. But I just think it eliminated the stakes. It also makes Star Trek so less interesting. So what if this Trek bombs at the box-office? Can the next group of film makers have a third universe to play in?f
**************************

That’s the thing. Would there be a “next group” of filmmakers, or would live action Star Trek die again for a while? It might not get up. Failed movies, failed television shows, not something you want to put your money behind.

*******************************
I wonder if a really thoughtful producer will eventually take over Trek and do what Days of Future Past did, by combining the casts and “fixing” the universes and giving fans what they really want.
**********************************

Uhm…they kind of DID that already. They combined one cast member from the old series, with the new cast members of this series, but unfortunately the universe wasn’t fixed. What the fans (the ones objecting to these movies) really want is TOS. And with the actors in their 80’s, they’re NOT going to get it, unless it’s animated.

***************************************
The thing is, the fans are the ones they should try to placate. We’re the hard ones to impress. Yes, we will see anything, no matter how crappy, and probably multiple times. Thats why we deserve more respect. The audience at large will see any big budget blow em up. Give fans the stories they deserve while adding the big budget action stuff, dont sacrifice story for action.

**************************************

Look at the first part of what you wrote. If fans are going to come out regardless, from a business sense, you don’t need to impress or placate them. Or respect them. Its like I mentioned for myself with X-men. The changes they’ve made are mindbogglingly stupid in my opinion, but I’ve still gone to see most of them at the theatre. I agree with having big budget action with good stories, though, but I think we’re getting that already. My opinion.

******************************************

237. Cygnus-X1 - July 2, 2014

234. TUP – July 2, 2014

I think I understand what you mean about the MWI premise eliminating the stakes—If we can simply switch over to another timeline at any moment, with yet another, alternate set of Alt characters, then why should we care about what happens to the characters in a given story?

Well, if the story is well written and sufficiently compelling, then we’ll become emotionally invested in it. The characters will earn our interest in them. I’m not saying that’s necessarily going to happen in BR Trek 3, but it could happen. It’s possible.

Like you, I had been thinking that BR Trek 3 would be Orci’s to take responsibility for. But, then we got that interview from the two frat boys saying that JJ Abrams is still very much involved and “a guiding light” and so forth. So, it seems that Orci will still have an excuse if the same writing problems from ST09 and STID show up again in the new movie.

238. ziplock9000 - July 2, 2014

Finally some actual adventure and exploration. Heres hoping Orci makes this into Star Trek and not nuWars like the last 2

239. Cygnus-X1 - July 2, 2014

236. LogicalLeopard – July 2, 2014

That’s the thing. Would there be a “next group” of filmmakers, or would live action Star Trek die again for a while? It might not get up. Failed movies, failed television shows, not something you want to put your money behind.

The “death” of Trek was rather short-lived the last time around, as it was less than a year after ENT was off the air that plans for a new movie began. When those plans failed to meet the deadline imposed by the CBS/Paramount split, they were scrapped and JJ Abrams was then offered the deal, which he signed just over a year after the end of ENT.

So, the answer to your question is an unequivocal YES. A property as rich, enduring and with the reputation and legacy of Trek is too valuable to leave on a shelf for a long period of time. Even for squabbling former co-subsidiaries like CBS and Paramount.

240. Cygnus-X1 - July 2, 2014

P.S. LogicalLeopard, TUP

And another unequivocal YES we fans do deserve more respect, and we’re deliberately being snubbed by Paramount at present. It’s a curious state of affairs.

241. Disinvited - July 2, 2014

#239. Cygnus-X1 – July 2, 2014

You are forgetting they already had a 11th film in the works while Enterprise was still on the air. A completed script was even delivered on time. It was the regime change that they initiated in 2005 to split Viacom asunder that caused that project to be quashed by the “not invented here” attitude of the new Gail Berman Paramount. It’s my reading of the reporting that it was because she killed a film project that was already in development that Moonves felt the need to impose a deadline on her getting the ball rolling.

242. Disinvited - July 2, 2014

“Big Bang Theory’s dual address seems to perfectly encapsulate the industry’s conflicted desire to acknowledge fans’ growing cultural influence, while still containing them through sitcom conventions. I agree that the recent influx of fanboy characters reinforce old stereotypes more frequently than they challenge or complicate them, but as you note above the comparative scarcity of fangirl representations – Liz Lemon on 30 Rock aside – suggests that while the industry is beginning to take fanboys seriously as a demographic, fangirls (or women, generally) are still considered a surplus audience. While I’m an avid reader of the Los Angeles Time’s Hero Complex, it’s difficult not to notice the gendered language of their tagline, “for your inner fanboy.”” — Suzanne Scott, Interviewer

http://henryjenkins.org/2012/11/textual-poachers-turns-twenty.html

“Like many first wave fan studies, Textual Poachers spoke back to dominant representations of fans as “brainless consumers”(10). Fans have moved from the margins to the mainstream within convergence culture, and echoing this shift we’ve seen a proliferation of fan and geek characters within popular culture. Many of these representations still trade in stereotypes, suggesting that fans “get a life” (e.g. The 40 Year Old Virgin, The Big Bang Theory), and the etymological ties between “fandom” and “fanaticism” continue to be reinforced by the popular press (e.g. coverage of Twilight fangirls), but there are notable exceptions. Do you think the trend towards recasting fanboys as superheroes (Heroes, Kick-Ass) or action heroes (Chuck, Ready Player One) has dulled the dominant representation of fans as feminized through their ties to mass culture? Has hegemonic masculinity shifted to tentatively incorporate the fanboy, as a character archetype as well as a consumer identity?” — Suzanne Scott

“Suzanne, you’ve spent more time looking at this question than I have, but I was struck rereading Chapter One by how much these contemporary representations continue to play around with the same themes as earlier fan stereotypes rather than offering us an alternative conception of what it might mean to be a fan. So, in 40 Year Old Virgin, a key step into heterosexual normality comes when the protagonist sells his action figure collection; we can see Virgin as a prototype for a whole cycle of comedies which celebrate “arrested development” as a masculine virtue/priviledge, but the more manly the characters are, the more likely their interests are in sports or rock, rather than in science fiction and comics. Fan boys have been, by and large, better served by literary representations by authors such as Nick Hornby (1996), Michael Chabon (2000), Jonathem Letham (2004), or Junot Diaz (2008), than in media depictions.

The Big Bang Theory is a much more complex text than the “Get a Life” sketch for a number of reasons, but it starts with the same core cliches: Leonard has been given a love life, but despite a sort of romantic entanglement with Amy Farrah Fowler, Sheldon is still depicted as asexual; Howard still lives in his mother’s basement, even as he is engaged to be married; there are running jokes which queer the relations between Howard and Rajesh (not that there’s anything wrong with it); we have had episodes which hinged on the value of Leonard Nimoy’s autograph and the boy’s collecting impulses are sometimes depicted as bordering on the irrational. At the same time, though, we are encouraged to see the world from the fan characters’ perspectives, we value their friendship and intellectual mastery, and over multiple seasons, they have become more complex than the stereotypes upon which they were based. Most significantly, the show insures that it gets its geek references right, anticipated that the show is being watched by people who will know what “frak” and “grok” mean, who have opinions about the comics or video games the characters are buying, who might actually play “Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock,” and who will appreciate cameo appearances by Wil Wheaton, Brent Spiner, Katee Sackoff, and Summer Glau.

What’s striking, though, is that even though Big Bang has added female characters in recent seasons, the women remain largely outside the fannish circle: it’s almost a crisis anytime women venture into the comic shop; Bernadette and Amy are both female scientists, but they do not show much interest in science fiction. Big Bang shows some sympathy to fan boys, but doesn’t share the love with fan girls.” — Henry Jenkins author of TEXTUAL POACHERS

243. Cygnus-X1 - July 2, 2014

241. Disinvited – July 2, 2014

Right….so, there really was never a period when Trek was sitting on the shelf collecting dust. There was just a gap between the end of ENT and the release date of ST09, but the movie was in some stage of planning/development/production the entire time.

244. Disinvited - July 2, 2014

#243. Cygnus-X1 – July 2, 2014

Yep. And if BR saved any near dead thing, it was a new Paramount on lifesupport in the neonatal ICU.

245. LogicalLeopard - July 3, 2014

239. Cygnus-X1 – July 2, 2014

The “death” of Trek was rather short-lived the last time around, as it was less than a year after ENT was off the air that plans for a new movie began. When those plans failed to meet the deadline imposed by the CBS/Paramount split, they were scrapped and JJ Abrams was then offered the deal, which he signed just over a year after the end of ENT.

So, the answer to your question is an unequivocal YES. A property as rich, enduring and with the reputation and legacy of Trek is too valuable to leave on a shelf for a long period of time. Even for squabbling former co-subsidiaries like CBS and Paramount.
******************************************************

Good point. I can see that. It’s just a matter of how long, and in what form. Also, with different distribution methods of things, and greater technology advancements, I have to agree with you.

*******************************************************
240. Cygnus-X1 – July 2, 2014
P.S. LogicalLeopard, TUP

And another unequivocal YES we fans do deserve more respect, and we’re deliberately being snubbed by Paramount at present. It’s a curious state of affairs

********************************************************

We deserve respect, yes. But voting with your feet is what works. I still don’t think the majority of fans are adverse to these new movies, but if they were, not showing up would help. You can’t change the mind of anyone if the box office receipts are decent. Like I lamented about X-Men. The garbage they continue to put out (garbage from the standpoint of canon) is something I still watch. Its entertaining, sure, but I still yearn for the possibilities and eagerly await a total reboot. Although, I am kind of interested in what they do with Apocalypse *LOL*

But rest assured, everyone, I don’t clog up X-Men message boards with hate for the director and screenwriters *LOL*

246. Cygnus-X1 - July 3, 2014

245. LogicalLeopard – July 3, 2014

But voting with your feet is what works.

It does. And it might well be that Paramount won’t respect our opinions until they result in less money flowing to Paramount. Maybe a boycott would get their attention. For my part, unless it looks to be just abysmally bad, I’ll be going to see BR Trek 3 if only to see what they’ve done in the name of Star Trek this time. I won’t be able to talk about the movie if I haven’t seen it, and there’s still a chance that it won’t be lame. But I probably won’t see it more than once or buy the DVD if its lame, just like I didn’t buy STID on DVD. And I won’t give it good word of mouth if it’s bad. I’ll bash the damned thing up and down the streets of NYC to anyone willing to listen, “Don’t waste your time—it SUCKS! Worse than a Michael Bay movie! It should be called “Star DREK!”

247. Keachick (Rose) - July 3, 2014

“And dont shoe-horn Shatner in as “Uncle Sam” or whatever. Good God, the man is going to be near 90 by the time we get around to using him.”

Actually, if they do give William Alan Shatner a part to play in the third movie, as Uncle Peter Kirk or as second cousin, Alan Riker (Riker being Winona Kirk’s maiden name…) he will be just turning 84 (22 March) if the planned principal photography starts in the spring of 2015. Just saying…

248. Keachick (Rose) - July 3, 2014

#246 – “I’ll bash the damned thing up and down the streets of NYC to anyone willing to listen, “Don’t waste your time—it SUCKS! Worse than a Michael Bay movie! It should be called “Star DREK!””

Well, one thing’s for sure, you can’t say you have not had enough practice.

It also, more than likely, means that it will actually be the best Star Trek ever, because, as you know, there is no accounting for taste.

249. navamske - July 4, 2014

#9

“Star Trek 3: The Search for Pike?”

When they find him he’s royally pissed off that his character got whacked . . . “Star Trek 3: The Search for Pike’s Pique.”

250. navamske - July 4, 2014

I would like to see some continuity, sort of what like Berman and Braga tried to do in “These Are the Voyages” and failed so miserably at. The point of PU/AU divergence was the day of Kirk’s birth, so everything that happened in the PU up to that point is still part of the history of the AU. Mention the Xindi attack. Show Denobulans, maybe even Phlox himself — we don’t know how long Denobulans live. Vulcans, on the other hand, are very long-lived (and prosperous) compared with humans — T’Pol could still be alive. Put Blalock back in the old-age makeup from “E2.” Or Soval. Maybe one of the humans from the NX-01, like Sato or Mayweather, has survived into this era. Isn’t it canon (from “In a Mirror, Darkly”) that Sato and her family were killed by Kodos the Executioner? Maybe that Kodos business didn’t happen in the AU and so she’s still hanging around. Mention Zefram Cochrane and the Phoenix, maybe even Cochrane’s Princeton commencement address in which he mentions the Borg. Or, to borrow from the future, bring in some of the NG actors to play the ancestors of their characters, like Jonathan Frakes as Riker’s great-grandfather. (No Soongs, though, please.) And NONE of what I’m suggesting has to be the focus of the movie — just show some damn continuity with the known Trek canon, something more than just a throwaway reference to “Admiral Archer.”

251. navamske - July 4, 2014

Re: Horta

Bring in Jolene Blalock and have the Horta be confused by her “silicon[e] nodules.”

252. Curious Cadet - July 4, 2014

@227. LogicalLeopard,
“As far as sexuality, both heterosexuals and homosexuals have preferences that they flat out weren’t born with. They may not have “chosen” them, but that doesn’t mean they were born with them. I don’t know if I ever said to myself, “I like women with this size chest, or this size posterior” but that developed throughout my upbringing. And different people feel differently.”

Not to start a whole thing here … But most Christians feel that homosexuality is a choice. Not just whether a person choses, “big butts”, or to participate in BDSM or not. So it would most definitely be interesting to see that particular conflict resolved by a Christian character.

Nevertheless, I won’t accept that Homosexuality is a choice. I hope that’s not what you’re intimating. A child raised in a completely heterosexual environment with no inkling that there is another way to live, may find themselves attracted to the same sex. Only society places a taboo on that. The choice is what to do about those feelings, not whether one has them.

A Christian on the other hand, may be raised without knowledge of any other religion, and by default not have a choice as to whether to be a Christian — but it’s not like if left in a vacuum, the entire Christian theology comes to them in a vision. Religion is learned. It is a choice one can make, like drinking foreign beer — a person raised all their life in a small town that only sells Budweiser, might one day visit the big city and drink a Heineken and “convert”. That’s a choice. Likewise, they may chose not to drink alcohol at all, and sip a Bud at a party to fit in. But it’s not like all that person’s life he craved a different kind of beer, and finally discovered there was one all along, or was even born craving beer without ever having tasted it, much less imported! I don’t know anyone who actually enjoyed their first drink. Alcoholism is not a choice, but choosing to take up drinking in the first place most certainly is.

The two things are inherently different. Addressing someone’s sexuality equates with race, in that neither are a choice at birth. Religion equates to philosophy, which are learned attributes, not inborn, and therefore explicitly choices.

253. TUP - July 4, 2014

Obviously homosexuality is NOT a choice. Im not sure *most* Christians believe its a choice. That may be true. I do know that many Christians dont believe it’s a choice…because they are not idiots. Some Churches have loop holes.

For example, my parents Church believes gays are born gay and since God created you it is NOT a sin to be gay. It IS a sin to do gay things. lol Try to rectify that one. Fortunately my parents dont agree with that.

The script for the proposed 11th film…that was the Romulan War arc, was it not? Sounded great. Would have made for a gritty Netflix/HBO style series.

To be honest, the most interesting aspect of Star Trek was the opening. I’d rather watch a film about Robau and George Kirk in that way cooler ship than another movie of ibridge and the kids in space.

254. Cygnus-X1 - July 4, 2014

250. navamske – July 4, 2014
251. navamske – July 4, 2014

Groan!

At least you didn’t say something along the lines of the creature arriving at the conclusion that T’Pol is a horta be reckoned with.

255. navamske - July 4, 2014

#253

“To be honest, the most interesting aspect of Star Trek was the opening. I’d rather watch a film about Robau and George Kirk in that way cooler ship than another movie of ibridge and the kids in space.”

What I want to know is why the Kelvin — which was designed and built before Nero’s incursion — didn’t have nacelles. Seriously? EVERY Federation ship had nacelles — the NX-01 (pre-Federation) had nacelles, the Reliant had nacelles, the Grissom had nacelles, the Excelsior had nacelles, the Pasteur (from “All Good Things”) had nacelles. Hell, even the Phoenix had nacelles! (Which I thought was a brilliant touch, right up there with Cochrane’s “Engage!” followed by Riker’s and LaForge’s reactions.)

256. Keachick (Rose) - July 4, 2014

I’m pretty sure that the Kelvin did one nacelle. It was placed in a different position from where we normally see the two nacelles on other starships.

257. Ken - July 5, 2014

I.m definately glad that this new movie will be in deep space and not about earth. I have no problem with lense flares but please dont go overboard with it! I am all for a gay character because this is what startrek was all about in the first place…diversity. Gay characters are nothing new these days anyway . I just hope that if they do introduce one that its done right.

258. Curious Cadet - July 5, 2014

@253. TUP,
“For example, my parents Church believes gays are born gay and since God created you it is NOT a sin to be gay. It IS a sin to do gay things. lol Try to rectify that one.”

My comment that “most” Christians believe homosexuality is a choice may be overreaching, as your rebuttal suggests. That said, as your example further suggests, where homosexuality may be tolerated in Christianity, the lifestyle is condemned. So, while they may not condemn you for being gay, the underlying subtext is that being gay is at best a cruel test from God and to save your soul, you must resist the sins you are compelled to commit by your God given nature, and renounce homosexuality. These particular Christians seem to be equating being gay with being a pedophile … God created the pedophile, but acting on those urges is a sin, so an otherwise nice guy merely needs to live a chaste life so as win his eternal salvation, or otherwise chose to burn in the hell fires of damnation. It’s the same argument against gay marriage — if they allow two men to marry, what’s next? A man and a Zebra?

So no, it’s still a twisted way of saying homosexuality is a choice.

259. Keachick (Rose) - July 5, 2014

So is acting on heterosexual desires a choice. Some people choose not to act on them at all and remain chaste and celibate. I do not see how homosexual is any different from heterosexual desire, which people may choose to act on or not.

Of course, acting on heterosexual desire can produce something that homosexual engagement can never do – a human offspring, which is why nature/God/whatever/whoever determines, in utero, that the vast majority of babies born will have hetero needs and desires, as opposed to homo needs and desires – Survival of a species where two opposite sexes are needed to join in order to produce the next generation of their species, whether it be humans or eg cats…

It also comes down to attitude toward sex per se. In the past, many saw sexual activity as only being OK if it was done for the purposes of procreation, and this being done within the married state. Any other sexual activity outside of this was considered wrong, immoral. It is therefore clear to see how homosexual activity would be considered the ultimate no-no, because procreation was not remotely possible.

Most people, sensibly, do not see intimate/sexual relations as just being the means through which we procreate (which, one would hope, would be a positive and life affirming process in itself), but can and does mean more than that in other ways as well, but just as positive and healthy.

260. Keachick (Rose) - July 5, 2014

“A man and a zebra?” Well, actually, in some remote places, around the middle east, men have been known the “marry” a sheep or goat or other. Whether any sexual contact of any kind takes place (bestiality) – I don’t know. Perhaps it does in some cases…as I say – don’t know.

261. ironhyde - July 5, 2014

Orci is doing very well, and his heart and mind are in the right place. Now we need some fun info and designs and thoughts, and I might just fall in love with Star Trek again..

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