“Subspace Rhapsody”
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Season 2, Episode 9 – Debuted Thursday, August 3, 2023
Written by Dana Horgan & Bill Wolkoff; with original songs by Kay Hanley and Tom Polce
Directed by Dermott Downs
Strange New Worlds makes Star Trek history with an engaging episode that turns out to be more than just a musical.
I may be an ensign, but none of this works without me.
WARNING: Spoilers below!
RECAP
“We appear to be singing.”
The Enterprise is at the edge of the Alpha Quadrant studying a subspace fold Spock thinks can triple communication speed. His experiment is tying up the computer, so Uhura has to go old school, channeling her inner Ernestine to keep the ship connected. Elsewhere, we see Pike and Captain Batel arguing over their upcoming vacation and La’an struggling to keep her cool as she welcomes James T. Kirk, who’s beaming on board for some first officer training with Una. In sickbay, Chapel finally gets some good news with an acceptance letter to a prestigious fellowship with Dr. Roger Korby that is going to take her off the ship for a while… and away from Spock. Oblivious to this impending separation, the Vulcan is having trouble figuring out how to tap into the hypothesized super-communication capability of this subspace fold. He sees merit in a suggestion from Pelia to try using music, since the fundamental harmonics might work within the fold’s different laws of physics. Uhura is inspired by the idea and chooses a classic Cole Porter song for the experiment. The musical signal sent into the fold results in a pulse of energy that ripples through the ship, so Pike demands a status report. Spock complies, reporting that all systems are stable… except he is singing, and soon enough, others across the ship are doing the same: Pike gets updates from everyone on how “all is okay” – but in song, along with some nice harmonies. Even the captain joins in asking the question on all of our minds… “But why are we singing?” Cue the new choral opening credits, we are in for a musical journey.
So that happened, and Captain Pike wants answers about why there are musical outbreaks across his ship. Spock explains that sending the song into the fold has created a “quantum improbability field” and they are now tethered to the fold and a new “musical reality.” Got that? The analogy of the week is this reality has torn open like a zipper and the plan is to zip it back up by teching a lot of tech. While Spock and Uhura are tasked for finding the right frequency, Una and Kirk start connecting the shields and Heisenberg compensators to the deflector dish, as if this was just another Star Trek episode. But soon enough they start talking about command styles, and here comes the music again as Una has some advice for young Kirk in a jaunty tune about connecting to his truth and to his crew, as she has decided to move away from her more distant style. Others watch bemused as Kirk and Una ballroom dance down a corridor, but La’an is concerned and goes off to her quarters to launch into her own little torch song over her James T. Kirk, dead in another timeline, and how maybe it’s time (or is it?) for her to let go of her strict control and find some of her own happiness and freedom. Once her impressive solo is done, the security officer makes a beeline to the captain to reveal that the songs people sing are disclosing highly personal emotional information. This isn’t just an amusing musical interlude, it’s a security threat.
When I’m captain, I’m going to have the chief engineer do this dirty work.
“This musical reality wants us to sing.”
Worried by La’an’s information, Pike is happy to find the various teams are ready to unzip this reality, and Una fires the rejiggered deflector beam at the fold to “collapse the musical reality back into our quantum state.” Sounds good, but the fold has other ideas, responding with a new, bigger energy surge. Things get even worse when the USS Cayuga hails and Captain Batel wants to “have a private conversation in a more discreet location about our canceled vacation.” Uh oh, now she’s singing too, and Pike joins her in a very awkward viewscreen duet that thankfully gets shut down when La’an closes the link. Now the improbability field has spread throughout Federation space; singing has infected 12 ships so far and Admiral April (a beautiful baritone, BTW) is pissed. Uhura posits that things are actually following the rules of musicals, so songs are being triggered by emotion and what’s most pressing on people’s minds. An exasperated Pike has a simple solution, which he can’t believe Spock agrees is worth considering: Shoot photon torpedoes at the fold. Just to be sure, La’an and Kirk are tasked to capture some particles to test. The security officer confides in Una that it isn’t a good idea for her to be around Kirk inside this musical reality… for “temporal” reasons. Number One gets the hint, but the first officer has some advice for her old friend… and here we go again. Una goes downtempo to sing-share how she spent her life keeping secrets, imploring her friend to not do the same. She also turns off the gravity for some inexplicable musical reason.
La’an and Kirk get to work transporting particles and she tries to open up to this Jim, but they are interrupted by an explosion. Spock’s experiment revealed the photon torpedo plan would only make things worse—a lot worse. Speaking of bad news, an incoming message from Klingon General Garkog makes it clear they have been hit by the improbability field too and it has caused “dishonor,” so stay out of their way. They are coming to blow up the fold, which will end up destroying the Federation and half the Empire, but just trying telling that to the Klingons. Pike needs a Plan C fast. Uhura wants to capture data from the moment a song begins so she takes Spock to the port galley, where he sees Christine celebrating landing that fellowship. So yeah, this should do it. He awkwardly asks why she didn’t tell him the good news and Nyota is ready with the tricorder as it’s time for Nurse Chapel’s big number. Christine joyously sings how she is “ready” to see her dreams come true, the whole bar lifts her up (literally) as she shares how for her the sky is the limit and if that means she has to leave a certain Vulcan behind, so be it. Ouch, dumped by dance number.
My girlfriend finally has a first name!
“We’re connected as a crew…”
Back to La’an: As she and Kirk analyze K’Tinga battle tactics, she gets the jump on the musical reality, spilling the time travel beans about falling in love with a Jim from another reality. That Kirk could see the version of her she wishes she could be, but he’s gone. Lt. Kirk isn’t the same, but she kind of likes the way he looks at her too—but before things progress, he drops the bomb that canon dictates for him to have a pregnant girlfriend around this time. So much for this pair, but she did avoid breaking into song. In engineering, Spock is analyzing musical data and scrutinizing Christine’s in particular, triggering his own sad song. The Vulcan has done the calculus and sees he is the variable, deciding he will no longer be solving for human emotions. Singing ceased, a disheartened Spock exits engineering and leaves Uhura alone to find the pattern that will get them out of this mess. This is the musical number we have been waiting for as she goes full Grammy-winning Broadway star, belting out her journey from the pain of loss to her loneliness to working her way through to her new path. She may have started alone but now she is the communications officer, she keeps everyone connected… and on the Enterprise, she is never alone. I’m not crying, you’re crying.
Uhura has figured it out and briefs the captain on how each musical moment caused spikes in the field, with a boost for moments with multiple singers. To shatter the field, it’s going to take a lot more singers. Pike tells her she is the one who can motivate everyone to share an emotion together. No pressure! The coms officer opens hailing frequencies to talk to the crew, breaking through the chaos and refocusing them to come together to fight for their lives. Soon enough, one by one, others begin to sing and dance their way through the ship… yes, it’s the big finale number. Together this crew sees their purpose as they function better all together, and it’s working. Uhura’s field boosting meter climbs, but it’s still not enough voices so Pike opens a channel to General Garkog as his bridge boy band to drop some K-Pop beats (that’s K for Klingon, get it?). The Klingons plus one last push on the Enterprise bridge does it; the fold bursts and the musical reality returns to the songbooks. La’an and Una take a moment over drinks to think about what they just learned. Pike and Batel come to a romantic dinner accord, but their vacation will have to wait as she has a new priority one assignment. Uhura takes us out with a final log, reporting things are back to normal across all affected ships, Klingons included. But she leaves us humming an earworm, and a nice end credits medley as this one-of-a-kind musical journey comes to a close.
Young man there’s a place you can go…
ANALYSIS
More than an anomaly
Well this is it, the swingiest of the “big swings” of season 2. Singing is nothing new in Star Trek, starting with Uhura’s song and DS9 even had a resident crooner, but a full-on musical episode with 10 original songs is on a whole new level. “Subspace Rhapsody” will surely be a matter of taste, with fans of musicals mostly likely to relish it. But even those (like this reviewer) who are not necessarily fans of the genre can be impressed by the enormous effort that went into this episode with superb levels of coordination between script and songs, choreography, and performance, especially from the professional singers in the cast like Celia Rose Gooding and Christina Chong. Analyzing “Subpace Rhapsody” as a musical will be left to TrekMovie’s musical-loving Laurie Ulster below, but behind the music, this was still a strong Star Trek episode that brought fascinating twists to familiar beats but also tied into the emotional throughlines of the second season.
Creating a musical episode has been a stated goal of executive producer Alex Kurtzman for years, yet there was still a welcome level of logic to keep the story within the rules of the Star Trek universe. From eddies to tears to ruptures, subspace anomalies have been the gift that keeps on giving to the franchise, so it makes sense to build this episode around a “subspace fold” which created the “musical reality.” And for a show that usually likes to avoid engineering solutions, Uhura’s Giga Electronvolt scale and “We need melodies and harmonies with tone ratios that achieve both algorithmic and logarithmic balance on a mass scale” fits right in with some of the franchise’s best technobabble, however, the logic only holds together at a surface level. While the explanation of the musical reality was better than a handwave, the logic falls apart upon scrutiny, but this isn’t the kind of episode where that really matters.
When I meet Khan, he isn’t going to believe this.
Even with the unique musical execution, this episode still had a nice affinity with the broader sub-genre of episodes featuring crews acting out of character, like TNG’s “The Naked Now” to DS9’s “Fascination.” The internal logic of where the music, lyrics, harmonies, and choreography were coming from might have worked better if there was some identified entity manipulating things, like the way the Hirogen transformed the Voyager crew into characters from a World War II movie in “The Killing Game.” However, that would actually give up the key that makes this episode hold together. Each of these songs was deeply rooted in long-developed character arcs, and even acted as a bit of a season resolution with some emotional breakthroughs, from Una and La’an learning to let go of their secrets and control to Christine embracing her ambition and agency, and especially Uhura finding her true calling on the Enterprise. That being said the impact of the various songs was still mixed and perhaps the most emotional scene of the episode (with La’an opening up to Kirk) had no singing at all.
The singing and the dancing certainly kept this bottle episode on the lighter side, and this was buoyed by some welcome humor, with Anson Mount’s Pike again delivering the best subtle comic beats. But there were still some clear stakes set up with a ticking clock and the threat posed by the Klingons. It was a delight to see Hemmer actor Bruce Horak return again in season 2, this time as Klingon General Garkog where he and his boy band bridge crew resolved their arc with humor as they danced their way into the finale number, outrageous gold uniforms and all. Looking closely at what actually happened during some of these songs shows how this episode was a big pivot point for many of the characters, like putting Spock back on a path to logic. Pike and Batel’s romance resolution coming right before her priority one assignment almost certainly sets up the stakes for the finale, possibly even setting up something tragic. The episode even found time to tie into some key bits of canon for some characters, including Kirk mentioning Carol Marcus and her pregnancy (with his son David) and Christine’s coming fellowship with (future fiancé) Roger Korby. Musicals may not be my cup of tea, but there was still enough humor, plot, and character going on to maintain interest. And even someone who has never seen an episode of Glee can be moved by some of the performances here, especially Uhura’s “Keep Us Connected” and the grand “We Are One” finale, both of which beautifully embody the themes of Star Trek.
Remember when you thought forced roleplaying Lord of the Rings was weird?
A most confounding thing, I appear to be singing…
Analysis by Laurie Ulster
I’m not an expert on musicals, but I am definitely a fan of good ones and this fits the bill. The songs come in a variety of styles and tempos, evoking memories of big moments in familiar musicals but with their own unique twists, and the theme of the episode—difficulty communicating—is echoed for La’an, Una, Spock, Uhura, Pike, and Chapel as they reveal their innermost thoughts in song.
Things start off with humor and confusion when Spock starts singing his status report and when the rest of the crew joins in with musical updates on phaser banks and inertial dampers, it’s fun to imagine the Strange New Worlds fan who doesn’t keep up on industry news and had no idea what was coming. But as we move forward into the episode, the humor remains but songs get personal and revealing, taking each character on a journey they may not have been aware of until the tunes came pouring out. Every song moves each character forward in ways spoken dialogue never could, making this work as a perfect penultimate episode as the season: They will take their revelations forward into whatever comes next.
Being red shirts, none of these officers will be seen again
Whether you want to sing along about deflector shields or deepest emotional truths, you’ll find yourself hearing these tunes in your head and wanting to snap up the soundtrack. The songs are beautifully written, with engaging, clever, lyrics woven into musical highs and lows that feel both familiar unpredictable at the same time—no easy task. When Celia Rose Gooding belts out the solo we’ve been waiting for, one can’t help but think about how Nichelle Nichols would’ve felt had she been able to see it. I believe she would have wept for joy seeing how her legacy as both a talented singer and an expert communications officer has come to take its place in the much-deserved spotlight; I teared up thinking about it on my first viewing and felt the exultation in my soul as the song reached its height.
As a musical, it succeeds on every level. The “science” of the story never quite makes sense, but the consequences of each character’s journey are as real as it gets. With its clever and often ebullient choreography (both in dance numbers and camera moves) and catchy tunes, this episode has quickly become one of my most rewatchable favorites.
Will you do the Enterprise Fandango!
Final thoughts
“Subspace Rhapsody” will surely go down as one of the most talked about episodes in the franchise. Musical lovers will rejoice while others will file it away as silly or even corny. Yet the sheer artistry and audaciousness make it worth watching, at least once. While it is a jarring tonal shift from last week’s dark episode, it still fits well within the season, providing a key pivot point heading into next week’s season finale. And maybe this is one of those episodes that benefits from avoiding overthinking analysis, so this time, just sit back and enjoy the show… and sing along if you are so inclined.
Gold is the new black
Bits
- Begins with communications officers log, Stardate 2398.3.
- This is director Dermott Downs’ first time with Star Trek, bringing his experience of directing a musical crossover of The Flash and Supergirl, “Duet.”
- The comment about people becoming bunnies is a reference to one of the songs in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer musical episode.
- With a runtime of 62:34, this is the second-longest episode of the series, just 12 seconds shorter than the season 1 finale
- After appearing multiple times through both seasons, Captain Batel finally gets a first name: Marie.
- Number One’s love of Gilbert and Sullivan was first revealed in the Short Treks episode “Q&A.”
- Starfleet ships affected by the musical reality include Lexington, Republic, Potemkin, Cayuga, Hood, and Kongo. Klingon ships include Forcas and Harlak.
- Spock was dispatched to handle bloodwine diplomacy with the Klingons, something he learned in the season premiere.
- The soundtrack for this episode is already available online.
I’m never going to tell Bones this happened.
More to come
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Keep up with news about the Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com.
I think this episode is SNW’s “Naked Time”…. a sci-fi plot to reveal who these people are to us and to each other.
I’m not a musical fan, but I think they did it in a Star Trek-y way. Bravo!
Great observation re: The Naked Time. I think that aspect worked as well.
I didn’t get to see this episode until today, because of being out of town visiting an ill parent.
I mostly adored the episode, but I hated, hated, HATED the idea that TOS Spock restrains his emotions because Chapel broke his heart. I really, REALLY want Spock to follow Vulcan custom in restraining his emotions because he believes in the philosophy or because he believes that those ultra-strong Vulcan emotions can be dangerous to others. Having him be Chapel’s bitter and self-protective ex is just such a terrible thing to do to a character who’s always been a huge role model for ethical behavior.
I also thought that the finale should have been inspired by the CAPTAIN of the ship and not by the communications officer. It’s true that Gooding is a much better singer than Mount, but they could have had Mount give an inspiring speech — we know Mount excels at that — and have the crew break into song in response.
Aside from those two things — one major and one minor — I was hugely impressed by how much creativity, talent, and work went into this episode. Aside from the Spock problem, I was delighted during the whole thing.
Am I the only one picking up a vibe that Captain Batel may not survive the season finale?
That’s definitely the vibe I get, as well. I think, as with Spock/Chapel/T’Pring, this show is rearranging the deck chairs to get Pike to fall back in love with Vina as the love of his life.
I’m getting a vibe that many of the characters are in for a tragic end:
– Pike, for obvious reasons
– Batel, as stated above
– Chapel; it may not be tragic, but she’s going to leave the ship for Korby, and her relationship with Spock lasted all of three weeks
– M’Benga, for reasons set out last week
– La’an, whose romance with Kirk is clearly doomed to fail
– Una, who never appeared elsewhere in the franchise
M’Benga served under Kirk in TOS didn’t he? When Bones was CMO.
Well, perhaps I was speaking too metaphorically. In M’Benga’s case I meant that he gets demoted, if not temporarily drummed out of Starfleet.
Aaaaah ok, I see what you mean!
But there still is Dr. Piper before McCoy.
Doesn’t mean Number one wasn’t around…. She just wanted mention in the TOS: the fact she was famous in the 24th Century, gives facts to reason she went on after the Enterprise
If there’s one criticism I think we should collectively drop, it’s “this person or that situation” wasn’t mentioned. It’s just the way these things go.
Una not appearing anywhere else doesn’t necessarily mean that she is in for a tragic end. She might go on to have a distinguished career we just haven’t heard of. She’s clearly notable since Boimler idolises her!
I picked that up in the trailers when they showed the shot of her on the planet with the huge Gorn ship in the sky.
Ok.. this worked and worked well. It is a lot of fun. I’m a little shocked at that. Kudos to whoever they brought in to write and compose the music, they did a great job, as did the cast. I thought they were trying to hard to bring in the scientific explanation part to all this. In my opinion, they should’ve dialed that back and just gone with it. The Klingon performance was easily my favorite part.
I particularly agree to the Klingon performance part. It would have been better (and perhaps even more funnier) to break some more of their stoic interior to show more of the K(lingon)-fun side.
The music and songs were 👌👌
So, my approach to this episode was to view it as a stand-alone, out-of-canon, alternative take on Star Trek — not unlike the BACK TO THE FUTURE musical on Broadway and the West End. In-universe, the premise is patently absurd, up there with transforming people into salamanders (“Threshold”) or amphibians (“Genesis”); I tend to excise those gems from the Trek historical record, too, and that’s what I’m doing here.
I admit I’m getting tired of having to do this twice in one season, and the prevalence of lighthearted comedy more broadly is absolutely souring me on the whole series, which is becoming Roger Moore’s Trek.
But within that context, “Subspace Rhapsody” was mostly enjoyable fun, if not a runaway hit. None of the numbers struck me as the next “Memory” from CATS or “Last Night of the World” from MISS SAIGON. But they were more earwormy than the aforementioned BACK TO THE FUTURE, which — with the exception of “This One’s for the Dreamers” was starkly devoid of earworms. I need to listen to the soundtrack to firm up my opinion, but the numbers with La’an and Kirk, Uhura’s solo, and Chapel in the bar were memorable. Celia Rose-Gooding and Jess Bush were the best singers; Ethan Peck was far and away the worst. (Listening to him was grating.)
One disappointment was that all the numbers were too peppy, the lyrics somewhat banal. The writers lately seem intent on lecturing us about how noble Starfleet is; they need to be *showing* us, not telling us. None of the musical numbers were in a minor key.
In particular, I was hoping they would adapt La’an’s theme, which we heard in “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow” and again in “Lost in Translation” into a one of the musical numbers; they kept tantalizing us with the prospect, but never followed through. The theme is beautiful, right up there with Ilia’s theme from TMP, and putting lyrics to it might have had “Frozen” written all over it. That was a real missed opportunity.
I was also hoping we might finally hear the TOS theme put to Rodddenberry’s infamous lyrics, or even “A Star Beyond Time” (the lyrical version of Ilia’s theme) in the opening credits. No such luck. Similarly, the teaser gave me some hope we might get a creative new rendition of “Anything Goes”; as things stood, Spielberg has nothing to worry about.
Part of the problem is that — at the risk of channeling Tom Cruise’s exhortations to lure us back to cinemas — musicals are best enjoyed onstage, in a theater, with an audience. The communal experience is part of the attraction. I tried unsuccessfully to score tickets to HAMILTON in New York in 2019, and I ended up watching it on Disney+ during the pandemic. It’s just not the same watching a musical on television, or for that matter on celluloid. I think this is part of the reason CATS (the movie) was so widely reviled; you just don’t capture the same magic that you do seeing it in the West End, with all the posters advertising it on the Tube on the way to the theater (and I’ll freely admit this is why I like the West End more than Broadway!).
I’ll see how it fares on a rewatch — the plot itself was dull — but the real legacy will be whether the soundtrack is worth adding to one’s iTunes playlist.
Contrary to what some are saying, Ethan Peck’s singing voice is more than acceptable. In fact, he carries a tune rather well. I was especially touched by his voice and the lyrics on the song he sang about losing Christine (“… the Ex”). He sang the song with just the right amount of disappointment and pathos.
Just listened to Ethan Peck singing: I totally understand that someone can personally find a voice grating (don’t play me a Phil Collins ballad…), but I liked it and objectively he had great vocal control jumping between higher and lower registers and knowing where to employ vibrato or not.
I would just kinda hope that Spock choses to abandon exploring emotions after an intense and nuanced exploration of the topic in-series, not just because he got dumped :D. I’d just think Spock being the thinker he is might not reduce such a decision to only one factor. Feels a bit simplistic. But well, maybe sometimes things are simple like that.
Klingon boy band for the win.
Perhaps VOY (or was it ENT?) had it right all along: all Star Trek needs was more boy bands. :)
Yes! I was not denied Bruce Horak after all! I love this.
Where was he? A Klingon perhaps?
Yes he was a Klingon
I like Horak and did NOT recognize him as the Klingon captain. I like how they’re using him as their version of Vaughn Armstrong or Jeffrey Combs or Kenneth Mitchell, casting him over and over in new and various roles.
I hope they keep using him over and over like those three. I’d really like that.
100% want Horak to be the new Combs
I do too for gay reasons
those are perfectly good reasons
Not that there’s anything wrong with that…
Yes! If I can’t have him as my favourite Aenar engineer, I will absolutely take him as an R&B singing Klingon
Right. We couldn’t have him as engineer. Elderly actresses need work, too!
Easily the best episode of the season.
In pure of raw entertainment? I think you’re right. If I’m honest, as much as I despise the canonical problems of Season 2 Episode 3, I think it’s my favorite episode of this entire series, let alone this season.
I thought Subspace Rhapsody was great, but Ad Astra Per Aspera was pure Trek and the best of the season, perhaps best SNW episode to date. I loved Those Old Scientists, too.
No, M’Benga ep and lower desk crossover were the best this season
This was such a beautiful episode!
“Ok, now that Pike is gone, who should we make captain of the Enterprise?”
“How about James Kirk? He practically lives there already.”
When Kirk was saying to La’an about how he never stays in one place, I couldn’t help but think that.
Yeah. He’s showing up WAY too much. And it’s really feeling forced.
I just wish they would make Sam Kirk a main character so that is the Kirk connection.
Prime Kirk has shown up twice. That’s not that much.
I haven’t seen Prime Kirk once. But three Kirk appearances is too much. It still feels forced.
Don’t poke the ML31 Prime Universe bear!
LOL!
He’s shown up twice in this reality. Lost In Translation and Subspace Rhapsody.
Both times it was this SNW timeline Kirk. Not prime Kirk.
Remember… Episode 2.3 said this is all an alternate timeline.
I don’t remember. Certainly that episode occurred in a different timeline with Kirk from yet a third timeline. Could you please indicate who said what as I’d like to go back and see it. Thanks.
Thorny is correct. ML31 is trolling you. He insists that everyone follow his head canon about SNW’s timeline.
If you are going to speak on my behalf I would appreciate it if you would be accurate.
This is not “head canon”. I never was one of those who considered the show an alternate time line from the start. Many here did as it was the only way they could reconcile the obvious inconsistencies. I only started going along with the alternate thing once the show itself admitted it was.
Please cease misrepresenting me.
That episode was in a different timeline because it was a part of this show and the entire show is occurring in a different timeline. The episode confirmed it in very rock solid fashion. Not only were there so very many inconsistencies already but the episode showed more. No Eugenics wars? Khan a child in the 2020’s? And for those who still didn’t believe their eyes they had the Romulan character actually spell everything out of those who still weren’t picking up on it. She said the Eugenics wars were supposed to happen in 1992. But in that timeline they didn’t. It’s towards the end. Very hard to miss.
All that was confirmed is that the Eugenics War is supposed to have happened later now. It also isn’t clear “when” this change took place. Enterprise discussed the Eugenics War being in the 1990s a few episodes after the temporal war ended, but Voyager showed a war-free 90s before we even heard of the temporal war.
It doesn’t matter “when” a change took place. The fact is it did. Which places SNW squarely in an alternative timeline at the very least. An outright reboot at most. It’s confirmed to be an alternate.
The Voyager episode was in LA. How many bombings of LA took place in WWI or II? It’s very likely, like the other WW’s, there were no battles in N America. Life went on there very likely as usual.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. We’ve seen multiple time travel episodes that have changed things in the past, perhaps subtly, but changes nonetheless. If every change results in an alternate timeline, we haven’t been in the “prime timeline” for decades.
I know I brought up Sisko becoming Gabrielle Bell, and you dismissed at such a minor change that the timeline “fixed” itself… how could the timeline, a nebulous construct that has no agency, somehow fix itself That wasn’t even the biggest change DS9 made. Trials and Tribbleations straight up changes events that we saw in TOS – with DS9 characters taking the place of random extras seen in the Trouble with Tribbles.
VOY is probably the biggest culprit when it comes to time travel shenanigans. Voyager went back to 1996, and there was very much not a Eugenics war going on. In Timeless, Chakotay and Kim drastically change the timeline by saving Voyager from crashing on a planet and killing everyone. Using your logic, the prime timeline is actually the timeline in which Voyager was destroyed. Then you can move on to End Game, in which the timeline is again drastically changed, this time by Janeway going back in time and not only getting Voyager home decades earlier, but being instrumental in the near destruction of the Borg. The crazy thing, the previous timeline where Voyager eventually makes it home decades later isn’t even apart of the prime timeline, as it’s a part of the timeline created by the events from Timeless.
Alternatively, you could look at it as such: as long as certain events happen, the timeline will stay intact. And, in the case of SNW, it may not necessarily matter when the Eugenics war took place, as long as it takes place prior to (or even concurrently with) WWIII, and before first contact with the Vulcans, the Trek timeline will stay intact. Basically, WWIII was the catalyst for humanity to change and reach out to the stars. The rough dates for the war are from 2026 to 2053, first contact with Vulcans occurred in 2063. So there’s a massive period of time for events to happen in such a way to lead up Zephram Cochrane’s warp test happening on April 5, 2063.
Tine changes that do not radically affect things, like Christopher knowing his kid would go to Saturn, don’t make major changes as far as Trek lore is concerned. But if you want to get technical then yes, all those tiny changes that affect next to nothing can indeed be considered alternate timelines. However Trek has never considered them as such. They have been “fixed”. The Voyager example is poor. There is nothing to suggest there were no Eugenics Wars going on in some far off place on the other side of the planet.
And yes, one can argue that Endgame was indeed an alternate as well. That one does have merit. The difference is nearly nothing about what happened in that original timeline was shown on any Trek show anywhere. As far as Trek is concerned the one we followed is the Prime. But I give you that situation is not as straight forward so good call on that one.
The difference here is that Kahn & the Eugenics Wars have been firmly established in Trek lore. In both a show and a feature film. That date is prime. Moving something so established only to cover mistakes made in your own show I just can’t count as “preserving the time line”. Something that huge in history just can’t be blown off and still think everything works out with minimal changes.
I don’t know where you got the idea that WWIII was the catalyst that changed humanity. Honestly everything regarding that is a bit murky and not all that clear as it was never really addressed in any show or movie. In fact, while not outright said it was implied on TOS that the Eugenics Wars & WWIII were possibly one in the same. Until TNG’s pilot episode.
Let me ask you this… Since the First Contact date seems so important to you suppose the Romulan went back to 2063 to screw with that and there was no First Contact until say 2083. Would you still think everything on SNW was prime?
“The difference is nearly nothing about what happened in that original timeline was shown on any Trek show anywhere.”
This is a great point actually and again a big problem with prequels versus sequels. It’s true Voyager altered the timeline multiple times and you can very much argue they are living in an altered timeline. The big difference is though Voyager was changing events we haven’t seen yet. We have no idea what the future was suppose to look like until they showed us in an episode. But it didn’t matter regardless because we knew it was there to be changed. That was the story, ie, how will they change it to keep the timeline we care about in tact. Those events had no bearing on the overall story because it’s stuff we didn’t know about until literally when it was presented in the episode. That’s not the same thing.
In his case, A. the Eugenics war happened well in the past and B. It’s an event that has been pounded into us for over 50 years now. It’s the core of both canon history but the show’s history as well. So when you alter that, it’s a big deal. And then when you alter it literally centuries in the past as well, of course it’s going to create other issues because it’s altering a story line that takes place before the other shows even existed. In Voyager’s case, being a sequel show and the last sequel show for nearly 2 decades it didn’t cause any issues to other shows because there was nothing else ahead of it at the time. They could’ve kept all that alternate history if they wanted and no one would’ve blinked because from our POV the future is still being written just the same.
But this also shows why there were so many reset buttons in Star Trek. I know people got sick of them, me included but it was done so people wouldn’t look at every time travel story as being part of an alternate timeline. It would’ve been confusing. And back then Star Trek was more episodic so they wanted people to feel whatever was changed it didn’t effect anything you saw last week or will in the next season.
But when you change something soooo far in the past and you make it clear time DIDN’T reset itself in this case, then you are creating bigger problems down the line. People can certainly argue SNW isn’t in a altered timeline, but guys it’s very simple, is Space Seed and TWOK still considered canon or not? Because if it is and Kirk and Spock still encountered Khan and thinks he still came from Earth in 1996 when just a few years prior we were told he came much later, then one of these is obviously not the case anymore. So either ONE of them is now operating in an altered tilmeline, but they both can’t be true.
And I’m going to assume for most fans it would be considered blasphemy to consider SS and TWOK as the ‘alternate’ history now.
That was pretty much what I was getting at with the ENDGAME scenario. At least one person got it. :)
I know this is why you don’t want prequels. But I still say while more difficult to navigate prequels can still be done and done well. You just need people who not only can write compelling stories but also are familiar with the source material to keep things in line.
That’s certainly part of it, but the main issue is I just generally prefer to go forward in a story, not backwards, especially in something like Star Trek. But of course I agree when they are done right, then I can easily be persuaded to like them. I loved Better Call Saul for example and love it as much as Breaking Bad.
As for Star Trek we have three prequels leading into TOS and I don’t think any of them did a great job leading into it although ironically Enterprise seem to been the best, but it was a century away from that show and not a few years like DIS and SNW was so it had more leeway.
I mean, ML31, I get what you’re saying. Khan in Space Seed citing 1992 seems incompatible with Khan child in 2022. But come on… this is shadowy temporal war time travel voodoo. What did that very same Romulan say? Time is like a “black box”? “So many people have tried to influence these events, you know, to delay them or stop them… And it’s almost as if time itself is pushing back, and events reinsert themselves…”?
But a more basic issue is La’an herself (when does she think her ancestor Khan lived?), or even Starfleet and Federation, if you prefer. If Khan/Eugenics Wars are a part of history, how is it that Prime and SNW-alternate timelines align at all? Why are we checking on exact dates for Pike’s command, and Enterprise voyages, and Talosians… ? Pike is going to have a similar career on a similar starship in a similar political setting and then die in an identical way at the same time in Prime and SNW-alternate, even though World War-level history was irrevocably changed 250 years prior?!
All I am saying is that while on the surface it seems like history changed, there can be many explanations. Time travel is … well… fiction. For example, consider this: the events of Tom/Tom/Tom episode THEMSELVES occur in an alternate timeline. La’an from Prime and Kirk from Alternate together jump to Another Alternate past. Events there are not Prime, once La’an’s mission succeeds, she is returned to Prime. Or of course, consider the agent at the end of the episode, who’s entire job is to repair the timeline–like Terminator 2 or that cool Seven of Nine chronoton frequency time travel episode, the nature of (fictional) time travel is such that they can keep going back in time until they get it right. (And the agent even says “Those events were never supposed to happen”!).
Your interpretation is valid. But, it’s not “Spock is Vulcan” level of establishment. We can quite easily still be in Prime. That’s a very valid view also.
Stop gatekeeping.
So to you “gatekeeping” is accepting what is actually being shown in the episodes?
Sorry. it’s not.
Gatekeeping is when you insist everyone must believe what you believe. What happened on screen DOES NOT indicate an alternative timeline. That is something you have chosen to take from it, and that’s fine, but stop pushing that belief on everyone else.
So if I believe that Spock is a Vulcan but someone else says he’s Andorian it is out of line to say he is actually Vulcan?
🙄. That’s really they only response I can give you inane comparison/question.
So with that response I can only take that to mean that it is NOT gatekeeping to say to someone who believes that Spock is an Andorian that he is really a Vulcan. Therefore, no. I am not gatekeeping at all and you just opted to not admit it.
*sigh* I’ve learned at my age that certain arguments are simply not worth my time and energy, and this is one of them.
I was fully expecting to really dislike this episode and it completely proved me wrong. It was a great character exploration and really revealed a lot about the motivation of the crew. I loved the end hearing the classis TOS ending theme.
Well done to the cast and crew! LLAP🖖👏👏👍
In my humble opinion, Ethan Peck’s singing was just as good as several of the others; his song of rejection by Christine was most touching, and worth repeat listening several times over!
Peck was decent, but I do think there was a little more Autotune applied for him than for, say Bush or Romijn.
Agreed! A smart, touching, enjoyable romp on the ol’ gal, Enterprise.
Loving this season and the series, *thank you* cast & crew 👍
This episode was one of the most silliest/corniest/bizarre episodes of Trek i have ever watched.
To me it’s right up there with DS9’s Move Along Home in terms of corny lol and viewing this episode as a full on comedy makes it much better imo.
Personally i was laughing through the episode with just how silly i thought it was.
I’m fine with musical episodes (A TV show called Sanctuary had a musical episode named Fugue that was good and Buffy’s Once More With Feeling was great) and if it was just the characters singing it would’ve been better.
But with all the dancing i felt like i was watching a dancing competition show like Strictly Come Dancing but more corny lol.
Criticisms aside it was way better then i thought going in and it was clear the actors enjoyed themselves.
Don’t get me wrong i appreciate SNW doing something new in Live Action Trek but sadly this episode just isn’t for me. I’m sure others will enjoy it and more power to them.
Strange that you liked BtVS’s Once More With Feeling but not this, since they are very similar. And that had quite a bit of dancing, too, including the Xander and Anya number.
Big “Once More With Feeling” fan here. My perspective on why I felt this was well done but, for me, isn’t on the same level: each song in OMWF was a stand-alone hit. And they all had different vibes and styles, yet held an interconnected theme between them — even literally, towards the end, as the elements from the different songs blended together towards the climax with Sweet. (I love that Buffy and friends actually lost against him. Their unearthed misery his reward.)
I felt none of that depth and weight with this episode.
Yes, each SNW cast member belted their numbers out well, and they worked in the current story themes well enough, but it all just felt fairly… generic? Chapel’s brutal, throaty kick to Spock’s naive heart and the angry Klingon crew’s brief, but hilarious number being the only real stand-outs for me.
The rest just felt kind of by-the-numbers. Competent, well performed, but generally uninspiring.
Of course, I may discover a fondness for it on rewatches. I’m open to that. And, of course, the impact of this on each viewer will vary, and that’s absolutely fair.
OMWF is an extremely high bar. That this even approaches that bar is something I’ll happily give it credit for.
I’m chasing ST:SNW, eager to hold it in a warm embrace and let it’s science fiction narrative wash over me, to add subsidy to my intellect and embellishment to my sense of wonder. But SNW runs from me, always remaining just out of reach. Just when I feel I am catching up, getting close, then……it surges away from me again, darting to the left and to the right and to this way and to that. Like an over-possessive spurned lover I cry out “come back to me, be what I want you to be, love me like I have loved you….”, and in response it titters flippantly, mockingly, and then performs an impossible loop, now behind me to kick my posterior and to send me sprawling face-first into the indignity of the parched and dusty earth.
And there, lying in a pool of sticky mud formed by my own tears, weeping, mewling, I understand finally, that when you truly have loved something, you need to let it go……..
Yep. To me, this was the nail in the coffin to all Trek pre-Secret Hideout. It’s over. This is “Star Trek” now, even if it’s nothing close to what I think should be allowed to use that name. I really had high hopes with SNW season 1. I was willing to maintain some level of hope with season 2, but now that’s gone. Picard season 3 will probably be the last thing that ever feels like the Trek I knew and loved. I’m willing to accep that SNW, Discovery, and whatever comes next is for a new generation. But I honestly just don’t think the jump between TOS and TNG was anywhere close to as jarring as this.
For all those who gave up after TNG premiered, who were dyed-in-the-wool TOS fans who just couldn’t accept the change, I think I finally understand their pain.
The difference is when TNG came along it wasn’t a change. It was further down the line. It didn’t undo anything TOS did. Some may not have liked the time shift… I was one of them. I wanted to go forward from the feature film time. But this feels like they are just making their own version of Trek. I give them credit… I thought they wanted to “overwrite” older Trek but they have since made it clear it isn’t. That it’s a brand new KU like timeline. So at least there’s that.
TNG season 1 is a huge tonal change from TOS, with unlikable characters and Roddenberry’s absurd rules like “no conflicted characters” that didn’t exist in the 60s. This was gradually corrected in seasons 2 and 3.
If you mean different in that the characters are acting different with a slightly different set of behavioral rules, then sure. But I would argue that while this was Roddenberry throwing more of his personal view into the show it was still reasonable in that humanity would have certainly had some perspectives change over 80 years. But it still didn’t undo anything established from TOS. It really built on that.
I’m just curious, but have you liked any episodes in season 1 or 2?
Yes, I actually liked most of season 1. Season 2 had a few that I’ve enjoyed, but have to take them as not part of canon (and even on some levels just plain not “Star Trek”) to enjoy them. Ad Astra per Aspera, Lost in Translation, and Under the Cloak of War had some good elements. I even liked Charades, but I had to suspend my disbelief when it came to how I really believe Spock would handle being fully human. But I can’t say I really just loved any of these in season 2, and there’s certainly more I don’t have to watch ever again. It just doesn’t feel like Star Trek to me anymore. I’ll watch the final episode and see where that leaves things. But if this season is any indication as to the approach to the potential season 3, I know I won’t be looking forward to it.
Ok fair enough! And I actually don’t disagree much with your assessment. Yeah I too thought season 1 was a lot stronger overall. For me that was the strongest first season of any Trek show since Voyager’s first season. I loved 8 out of the 10 episodes and that’s even including the canon issues I had with them. But I don’t include canon when I rate the episodes, just the quality of the stories themselves.
With season 2, I think I like it more than you do, but even for me, I really only loved 3 of the episodes so far. I don’t hate the others, just not as impressed with them (but episode 4 is my lowest rated easily). I still think season 2 is good overall but a big step down from season 1.
I guess the honeymoon is over. ;)
There are about 6 good episodes in each season. there are some episodes, like this one, that are clearly filler episodes in a 20-episode season arc, but not in 10.
This was as disappointing as the episode in season 1 with the sets decorated as a castle…I can’t remember the name. No, strike that, this was annoying.
Yes, I like Season 1 just fine. The writing was perhaps a little blasé, but the sets are gorgeous and I really do like every one of the actors and the parts they play. Season two though, not so flash for me, the only two episodes I thought were fairly good were the one’s where Spock was humanised and the one about Uhura communicating with the Nebula lifeforms. Also kind of liked the planet episode where everyone forgets. The rest of the episodes though have disappointed me somewhat, I think it is because the writing has in my opinion been too simplistic, all gravy but little meat. I see a lot of people gushing over every episode of SNW though, so I can be thankful that SNG is mainly hitting it’s target audience. Unfortunately the idiosyncrasies of my receptiveness now lay on the periphery of the target rather than in the centre.
“all gravy but little meat” yes, from the little I’ve seen, like broad strokes of drama, maybe a bit generic (unrequited love, superfighter during war background etc.), not too complicated or nuanced. That what you mean?
Yes, I think that is it, the actors in the show are all fantastic, but it is like they are being served comic book dialog by the writers. Or like a stone that spends all the time skipping over the water while suffering none of the drama of being submerged for a time. Or like cotton candy, put it in your mouth and marvel at the taste, but it melts away before reaching the stomach and leaves you still hungry.
This show has a great cast, the background musical arrangements are quite good, the design of the ship is simply stunning in my opinion, and the show is bright and colourful. I just don’t think some of the writers are up to task, it’s like they are naive and barely know the bare basics of the human condition, and little about continuity and science fiction in general, and so write accordingly.
I do think a part of the problem is the short yearly episode run – it may encourage “hit and run” types of writing, whereas a 26 episode season like in days of old would perhaps force the showrunner to implement a deeper narrative for each of the characters.
There are a lot of interesting comments there and I can concur with much of that assessment. Thumbs up.
Wow interesting points. For the record, I like the show more than you but I do 100% agree about the dialogue writing though. They do come off as a lot less professional and too contemporary at times. I have made the same complaints about LDS as well which is way way way worse, but I guess others excuse it more for being a comedy.
And yes having just 10 episodes the bad or ‘filler’ episodes stands out way more. But that said I still think SNW has much less of a problem with this than shows like DIS and PIC does IMO. And I think the episodic nature of the show really helps that too and probably a big reason why the classic shows have aged so well because you have so many episodes and can just easily skip the bad ones.
Funnily enough, I don’t agree about LDS :-) The dialogue may be informal, but behind the outwardly loud and colourful surface, in my opinion the writing on LDS is often more subtle or interesting than on SNW (though I recommend watching at 90% speed ;). I think Lower Decks had some quite intelligent stuff, some of it in the interpersonal field: Like when Mariner learned that sometimes true freedom is to do a thing you realise is right for yourself IN SPITE of your adversaries telling you to do exactly this, when your instinct would be to act contrary to them (in the episode where she fights herself on the holodeck). Sometimes there’s also a joke behind a joke to discover in LDS. And to this day, I think that LDS transports the vibe of the fantasy trek space-ship my cousins and I had as kids, bigheaded captain included :-). I still have my cousin’s drawing of a fantasy space ship labeled “Edge Of The Known Space Map”. Guess what the new LDS trailer started with: “At The Edge Of The Universe…” Hehe.
Not only the dialogue, but the plotting: Maybe SNW is the popcorn/blockbuster version of a Trek series, with some daily soap (love triangles etc.) and a healthy dose of teenage romantic fanfiction thrown in?
Well I don’t mind so much that SNW does not succeed in catching my interest, because I enjoy Lower Decks a lot, so maybe to each their own in the new Trek universe.
Ok, thanks for the response! :)
We don’t really disagree that much. As I said in the other post, I agree season one was much stronger overall but still like season two. But I only love three episodes at this point which was the trial episode, Charades and TOS. The others were mostly fine, including this episode but not amazing either. And I agree the writing is definitely the culprit per usual.
But it does seem like the majority of fans like season 2 as much as season 1 or at least close to it. Looking at the IMDB ratings at least, the episodes in season 1 is a little stronger than season 2 but not much. And every episode in season 2 averages over 7 at least minus this episode so far. In other words there is no big gap in the ratings between both seasons even if season one is rated a little higher.
But that has zero to do with personal taste of course and this board seems to have bigger problems with season two when you look at the nearly high praise most of season one got here.
Make personal note — mushrooms combined with Vodka not a great mix.
: )
Someone should set your deeply poetic comment to music. Kunstlied or opera perhaps.
Ha, and the music video could be of someone caught within a fever-dream inside of a coma!
I did not mind the singing as much as I minded the mention of K’tinga class battlecruiser which is WAY too early for cannon. 2270 or 2265 at earliest. Not 2257!
Yes nitpick but at this time the K’tinga was still the D7.
It’s the same design, but with more details added anyway.
Maybe “K’Tinga” is the Klingon name, and “D7” was just Starfleet’s designation for it. The Enterprise and her sister ships were still called Constitution-class even after the TMP refit. The K’Tinga is basically just the TMP-refit version of the D7 from the Original Series. Maybe it was called “K’Tinga” all along.
K’tingas were brand new in TMP according to the GR novel.
Given the novels aren’t canon though, they have some latitude. I mean it’s pretty obvious that TMP Klingon ship was the same one from TOS, but done with the level of detail they could now afford for the model.
These writers don’t care. They just do what they want. Their knowledge of Star Trek is what they look up on memory alpha or Google search.
I noticed the name thing but since this is an alternate reality/reboot none of that matters. They can, and have, change anything they wish to.
Agreed! I also view this show in an alternate timeline.
It’s not just a personal view. I’d prefer it to be Prime and to obey all the rules. But they themselves showed us it absolutely isn’t in Ep 2.3.
That’s nuts criticizing Memory Alpha like this? Dude, that site, which I have written with many other Trek volunteer fans over the years, is the best single resource for this type of information.
You are way off base and you are throwing hundreds of volunteer fans over years who created this outstanding encyclopedia under the bus. In fact, the collaborators of that site intend that current and future creators of Star Trek will use the database actually like your are criticizing them for?
WTF? This is just way out of line! Of course we would hope the current producers and writers, who are very busy, would take the time to use this outstanding online resource Your comment is just freaking nuts to make fun of Memory Alpha — insulting many who have worked on that for decades.
Ah, internet. What would we do without you?
According to Memory Alpha website the K’tinga entered service in 2259.
And where did THEY get that info from?
They removed this episode, which is obviously canon.
OMG !!!!!
I would love to know what William Shatner, Nick Meyer and Rick Berman think of this episode.
Nicholas Meyer loves it, William Shatner doesn’t give a damn, and Rick Berman thinks it’s gay.
I’ll add I thought it was great :)
Doubt any of them are watching….
Hopefully they all enjoyed it if they watch it.
A reference to turning into bunnies and uhura saying ”I’ve got a theory” have to be Buffy homages, right? 😁
Absolutely :)
I was skeptical but cautiously optimistic. Didn’t expect to like a a musical episode, but assumed I’d end up at least think it was cute or something by the end. But . . . I really just cringed my way through this.
It wasn’t particularly funny, I thought. Except maybe the Klingon bit. The songs weren’t especially good or even catchy . . . Watching La’an just more it less stand in her quarters and sing on repeat felt like an eternity.
I’m glad there seems to be a good number of people who enjoyed this. I want the show to succeed and do well . . . But . . . It’s just not one that’s going to have the rewatch value I’ve come to expect from other Treks.
This season has tried way too hard to be cute and not hard enough to seek out strange new worlds. Loved the Lower Decks episode, but . . . Yeah.
And not to beat the canon dead-horse, but k’t’inga class cruisers pre-TOS??
Yes to all of what you said and then some. I was not engaged at all for yet another hour of Trek. And that makes me sad because I LOVED this show in its first season.I’m all for Trek taking chances and doing lighter episodes, but with few exceptions (making M’benga a murderer, for instance), this has been a rather comedic season.
But that just one grump’s opinion. This episode is clearly some folks’ cup of Earl Grey and I’m glad for that. I’m one of the rare souls who LIKED “Spock’s Brain”, after all.
Remember the events in Episode 2.3. Falling in line with the prime TOS universe is no longer a thing. In fact it turns out it never has been.
Yep, just another confirmation – if having a musical episode wasn’t enough of a confirmation in the first place.
Why did you expect it to be funny? Most musicals aren’t. Sure, sometimes they have an amusing number like How Do You Solve A Problem Like Maria but usually, no.
I didn’t expect it to per se, but I hope for it to be. For me, *my* tastes, comedy has been the saving grace of a number of musicals.
I actually come at this from the opposite standpoint: a lot of musicals have a number that’s morose, or at least a kind of soulful ballad — think “Tonight” in WEST SIDE STORY, or THE NIGHT OF THE DRAGON in “Miss Saigon” (literally about a Viet Cong commissar forcing Jonathan Price to pick rice in the fields), or “Memory” or “Old Deuteronomy” from CATS, or the main number from FROZEN.
That’s what “Subspace Rhapsody” was missing, I think, and La’an’s orchestral theme was the obvious place to put it.
I come at this from the perspective of liking musicals, but by that I mostly mean on-stage, in-person musicals, where you’re part of a communal, almost transcendent experience. CHICAGO and most Bollywood productions do nothing for me; I’ve only seen Hamilton on screen, and I failed to see what the hype was about. I bet I would have a different reaction in a theater. PHANTOM on the West End was a magical experience; on Disney+ during the pandemic, it was kind of “meh,” although anything during the pandemic kind of fits that bill. (To contradict myself a bit, I’ve enjoyed the two screen adaptations of WEST SIDE STORY.
I don’t know how well science fiction and musicals mash up together. I’m going to re-watch this and decide; my first impression was “good, but not great” — it was just a bit too peppy. I had a similar reaction to the Back to the Future musical adaptation. I never saw the Spider-Man musical.
The song that Uhura first played into the subspace fold seemed to be Nichelle Nichols singing if I am not mistaken
Awful. Just awful.
Nichelle Nichols is awful?
If it was Nichelle, at least that’s one better way to look at the choice of song. But to me, the way I look at the use of “Anything Goes” is that, why on earth would someone that far in the future even KNOW that song? That would be like someone today pulling out a Bach concerto and jamming out to it and expecting everyone else to hum along. Sure, there are still plenty of people who appreciate classical, but I highly doubt “The Great American Songbook” would be the first thing thought about on a starship in the 23rd century…. In fact, the first question might be, “What do you mean by American?”
Well, Anything Goes is 89 years old and is still well-known, so there’s that. Plus, there was a revival of the musical (from which the song originates) last year on the London stage.
And why wouldn’t the Great American Songbook still be known to music lovers? Art lovers are still well acquainted with the Dutch Masters who painted their works in the 1500s and 1600s.
I don’t think works of art (such as paintings) equates with music – even though it is an art. There are plenty of art lovers in the world, but the average person doesn’t grab their phone and start browsing through paintings everyday. But popular music is everywhere, and I would say 1 out of every 4 people in most public places have on headphones or are somehow enjoying music. The vast majority of music listeners don’t spend their time listening to creations more than 50 or 60 years old. And even if people do listen to classical on occasion, other than classical musical lovers, I don’t think most people could identify much more than Beethoven’s 5th Symphony or maybe Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyries.
Simply put, the average person is going to identify with music from their generation. They may enjoy some “oldies” but, from my interactions with people of many ages, I think “oldies” fall within the last 30 to 50 years for most people. I work with college students everyday, and I can guarantee you that they aren’t very familiar with songs recorded in the 1950’s, much less the 1750’s!
So to assume that a person on a starship in the 23rd century is very familiar with 20th century music, so much so that it’s the first thing that pops in their head when told to come up with a tune, seems absurd. This problem isn’t limited to SNW. Most Star Trek’s have this problem.
As for knowing the “Great American Songbook”, I would ask a different question – what would you pick from the “Great Native American Songbook”? Native American’s were the dominant population throughout most of North America less than 300 years ago. Can you sing one of their songs? You probably live in an area close to where a tribe called home in the 1700’s. Shouldn’t you be able to recite a song from that time if Uhura was aware of “Anything Goes” being part of the “Great American Songbook”?
False equivalency. Native American music has only rarely been recorded for widespread distribution. Sure, you can find some modern day performances, but the vast majority of Native American culture (including music) has been lost to time since the arrival of Europeans and therefore was never widely known. That isn’t the case with Anything Goes and others of the Great American Songbook, which have been recorded too many times to count in dozens of languages and is very easily available. At least two versions of the Broadway score (1987 and 2011) are readily available on iTunes. Not bad for an almost 90 year old musical.
summt augenblicklich “ein feste burg ist unser gott, ein gute wehr und waffen….”
That would be pretty cool. I can’t be entirely sure, but I don’t think it’s Nichols:
https://music.apple.com/mu/album/anything-goes-broadway-version-single/438424778
I think it was Patty Lupone from the 1987 revival of Anything Goes.
Loved it. Can’t wait to watch again.
It was a harmless episode that I didn’t personally love. I don’t mind the concept at all, I just wanted more out of the story, beyond the character stuff coming to a head. Or maybe the personal stuff should have been framed in a more urgent way, I don’t know.
That said, I hope Spock’s eventual path towards logic isn’t based on his brief romance with Chapel ending. Spock believes in logic, he doesn’t just use it as a shield against feelings.
That was something that was cringe too. I find it a bad creative thing to do even with alternative timeline Spock. But whatever.
Honestly this episode wasn’t nearly as bad as most episodes but still… This show doesn’t seem know what it wants to do. It’s not going with different genres. Trek always did some of that. It’s not knowing how it even wants to treat itself.
At this point it’s pretty obvious any episode that ends up being decent is likely a mistake by the producers.
Yep on Spock’s turn toward logic. I had hoped he would have been inspired by a mentorship. Instead they went for heartbreak and that’s also a poor decision for Chapel too. Here’s hoping with her going away for the internship the characters get a chance to grow in better ways. I did at least appreciate the closure of some storylines like La’An and Kirk’s. Number One also got the opportunity to show not just tell what kind of leader and support system she could be to the crew. Like how all the characters got some scenes once again. This is something new in the back half of season 2 and I am liking it. I would also like to see some background characters, like Mitchell and Sam Kirk, get some more screen time. Admiral April would also be deserving of a bigger role. Special mention to Bruce Horak he does a great Klingon.
As for the delivery through songs….they did the best they could with it. It will never be a favorite and that’s ok. I hope they continue to take risks going forward into season 3. By focusing on strange new worlds and including more legacy characters or even original characters to enhance the show. Oh and an Ortegas episode. She deserves more serious content.
I absolutely loved this episode. I can’t belive there is only one episode left of the season.
Yes and probably no more after that for at LEAST 18 months!
Easily that where SNW is concerned. And generally in terms of live action, after episode 10, that will be it until Disco S5 starts.
I don’t actually mind the concept of a musical Trek episode. I can easily imagine DS9 doing one. And they did find a technobabble explanation that works for what it needs to do.
But why were the songs so boooooring? It’s all generic pop stuff that an AI could have written. And the music sounds like those loops that come free with a keyboard. It’s so aggressively mediocre.
I still have the music from the Buffy episode in my head. Or the songs from Todd and the Book of pure evil. Or Picard and Worf singing Gilbert and Sullivan for a Trek example. I can’t remember any of the songs from this episode and I JUST finished watching it.
With the album being released on digital platforms today, I was hoping to add at least a few of the songs to a playlist, but nothing really grabbed me enough to go seeking any of them.
I wasn’t wowed by the music itself, but was surprised they took the time to write stuff that integrated into the story of the episode and the overall arcs. I think for me, it was just easy to not take this episode very seriously, so I could just sit back and take it in for what it is. And I thought it was fun. Applying my general criteria as it relates to canonical Star Trek, and it’s an unmitigated disaster. As funny as the Klingon stuff is, why would they act like just because they were singing? Would they not sing in their native tongue? Why would they immediately know to sing in another culture’s musical genre? Where did the music come from and why do they know how to sing original songs in unison? Again… think too much, and your brain will boil.
That was another complaint. I enjoyed that opening number. But then the rest of the songs were all so similar! After the opening I was hopeful. I shouldn’t have been. This is still Secret hideout after all.
Really? I thought La’an’s number was musically very different from Chapel’s.
They changed tempo but that doesn’t really differentiate them that much. It’s almost like rearranging a cue for a different feel.
No, they are completely different, stylistically. Now, I do think Chapel’s song “I’m Ready” and Spock’s song “I’m The X” have some elements in common, but I’m fairly sure that was deliberate, servings as two sides of the Chapel/Spock relationship coin.
This is a spot on review of the music. I won’t touch the episode as a whole or the fact that it happened as “Star Trek”, but as a musical, there wasn’t anything interesting or really any of the songs that will last in my memory past a few weeks.
I have kids, I’m exposed to a lot of kids music and movies, but some of them aren’t that bad. When Encanto came out, I didn’t really think it would be as big as it was, but I had to admit that several of the songs were catchy, and a few even stuck in my head beyond the first viewing. Since then, most of them have been nailed into memory, but there’s a couple I still like.
If you’re going to do this sort of thing, DO IT RIGHT! I felt like this was a mediocre attempt at music composition. And several of the performances were just static and empty. La’an’s solo soliloquy just about put me to sleep, as an example.
When I initially heard about the episode, the first thing that popped into my memory was “Star Trekkin across the universe…”. If you know what I’m talking about, then you know that a comedic parody song was more catchy than what was done here.
Crap! I haven’t had that in my head for a very very long time. Now you mentioned it and there it is again and I have no idea how long it will live there!!
Did Kirk know in TWOK that he was a father? I thought it was a surprise to him. I’ll have to watch that again, I just find it interesting that Kirk would have gone though all of TOS without mentioning David then
My thoughts exactly! Perhaps someone who has seen TWOK recently can confirm?
From: Trek BBS
TWOK is the first time that viewers became aware that James T. Kirk had a son, David Marcus, with his old flame Carol Marcus. But it’s a little unclear exactly when Kirk found out about David. He knows that Carol has a son by that name, but Kirk obviously doesn’t know David well enough to recognize him in the Genesis Cave (“Is that David?”). Kirk and Carol’s private conversation afterwards (added during reshoots to clarify things) is still ambiguous at best:
KIRK: I did what you wanted. …I stayed away. …Why didn’t you tell me?
CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father. … Actually, he’s a lot like you. In many ways. Please tell me what you’re feeling.
KIRK: There’s a man out there I haven’t seen in fifteen years who’s trying to kill me. You show me a son that’d be happy to help him. My son. …My life that could have been, …and wasn’t. And what am I feeling? …Old. …Worn out.
No, he knew. In the film he said to Carol, “I did what you wanted… I stayed away”
Okay, I remember that now, so all of TOS he never once mentioned David and Carol Marcus, but he blurts this out to La’an now. Hmm.
I do think Paul Wesley is starting to grow on me as Kirk but best to leave him alone for a few seasons I think. He’s already overshadowing Pike.
Well, not mentioning it in TOS is what it is. Has been ever since TWOK came out.
Was he ever in a situation in TOS where someone was suggesting a serious relationship like La’an was though?
True.
And we should have a pool for what Trek elements they are going to stick to and which they are going to completely obliterate in this new rebooted version of Trek. There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason for any of it.
Exactly.
Writer’s room: “Hey, wasn’t there some guy named Korby who Christine hooked up with? Let’s throw his name in there this episode. Oh, and what was the type of the Klingon cruiser in TOS? K’Tinga class, right?? And I think Kirk needs another pointless reason to return. It makes sense that he wouldn’t spend any time at his post with a family member on another ship. He’s just learning to be a first officer from someone he met ONE TIME…”
They mentioned Korby in Charades (and at the time, someone said he’d been mentioned before, but I don’t recall which episode.) so this seems to have been their end-game to get Spock and Chapel back to their TOS status quo.
But they didn’t need to. They set up a situation where they could have played with the relationship a lot more than they did. They aren’t beholden to what happens on TOS.
On TOS, where Chapel asks Spock, ‘have you ever been engaged?’ Clearly not beholden. More like, making it up as we go, but then when somebody says ‘tribble,’ instead of drinking, they put in a worthless nod to continuity, as if that offsets all the damage.
Exactly. It’s such a weird way how they are handling canon. One hand they acknowledge Korby, but they literally changed the entire back story o of how they originally got together.
I guess I just don’t really understand it? It’s not acting like a ‘true’ prequel but more like the Kelvin movies did and just added whatever canon they wanted but changed a lot of it around, but unlike SNW the Kelvin movies made clear it wasn’t trying to fit TOS canon and do its own thing.
But then they went and made an episode that says “Yes, this is why everything is so very different. This is a different timeline/reality.” Just like the KU movies did.
Yeah I agree with you, I just mean the way the producers discuss the show. They still talk about it as if they are trying to line it up with TOS and anyone with eyes clearly see that’s not the case.
But as you said they gave themselves an out where they can change whatever they want in Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow but then in the OTHER time travel episode, TOS, they still treat it like the show MUST line up with every event in TOS (the show) and how strict Boimler and the crew treated his and Mariner’s presence. Now of course Boimler and Mariner don’t know about the changes in the timeline or obviously they are affected by the changes as well but I’m going on the notion in LDS everything from their POV is exactly what leads up to TOS and the canon we know.
So it’s a bit confusing but welcome to temporal mechanics lol.
The producers don’t really have a clue what the prime timeline really is. The difference between the Kelvinverse and this, is that the writers for the Bad Robot movies decided to create a new timeline / canon.. which is the smartest thing they did. This braintrust has decided that this is an altered prime universe, so basically TOS as we knew it is wiped out. That’s a problem for a lot of fans.
I’ve heard it said that they actually WANT to wipe out TOS and do what they think is the superior version of it. I still have a tough time with that as that sounds too conspiratorial for me. But there are times when I cave and think that theory might have merit.
But yes. Say what you will about the KU features they had the balls to tell us all it was an alternate/reboot.
This very well could be an example of having their cake and eating it too.
Honestly I just don’t know what the producers are thinking. They said it was in prime but then they just blow apart some rather huge parts of the lore. Then they make an episode that clearly says, “this is an alternate reality” yet haven’t publicly confirmed that is what they did. Did they intend for some fans to follow what they said last year and other to follow what they showed in the episode? What’s the point of THAT? This is why I say this show is very schizophrenic. I don’t think they really know what they want to be. Or they know they want to be everything. They want to be both prime and be free to do what they want. Those two things would seem to be at odds with each other.
True that. If the show really was prime then using a version of the little rectangle things or throwing in Dr Korby call outs doesn’t make up for the HUGE mistakes already made. It’s like smashing out a car windshield and replacing the radiator with one for a different make and model but saying “Look! We added a USB port! It’s fine!”
K’Tinga actually only appeared starting with TMP, so this K’Tinga is over a decade early.
He also asked Carol “Is that David?” when he first saw him. So he already knew about David.
I think heyberto is correct. I think Kirk’s surprise in TWOK was based on David being fully grown/a man and not recognizing his own son…that many years had passed since he stayed away and he obviously didn’t get birthday pictures along the way, so he had no idea what his son looked like after a couple of decades.
Nice tie-out to canon.
He was surprised to run into David, and I think it was a little ambiguous whether or not David knew that Kirk was his dad, but Kirk definitely knew that David was his son.
I’m calling it now, Kirk and La’an hook up before she leaves the enterprise. We find out she is pregnant with a child Kirk will never be aware of. The great revelation that Kirk’s greatest nemesis is actually an ancestor of his own child.
It had a few good moments but ultimately the A plot was not strong and the dual B-plots were stretched to carry the rest of the episode through all the singing and dancing. Those songs were not particularly inspired or catchy.
“Creating a musical episode has been a stated goal of executive producer Alex Kurtzman”. I think this is biggest the problem I have with this episode. It felt like it was really stretching hard — an undeniable trait of Kurtzman to shoehorn personal goals into trek. In fact, it might be my least favorite episode.
I was curious what other people thought of it and I guess they liked it, so whatever — to each their own.
See, I was hoping they’d just leave plot out of it completely, and just make this a crazy, non-canonical romp. So making the plot elements weak is a feature, not a bug, IMO. And I agree wholeheartedly that the idea of a musical episode is not something that makes any sense, conceptually. Perfect for Lower Decks. However.. I do think the creatives have conditioned us for something so ridiculous with their low bar for storytelling in this series so far.
Yeah, actually. If they had a Trek comedy series a musical episode with no explanations would slip into that genre more easily. There is a reason comedy/musical are often mixed together.
Lower Decks was best left out of this, and outside of canon. It’s the perfect place to do ridiculous things. This series, is not.
Just so.
It seems like Spock and Chapel had this crazy relationship for all of one week before it began falling apart.
Yeah. They are free to do what they want. So if they are going for a Spock-Chapel thing then they should really go for it. Just like Spock-Uhura in the KU. To be as brief as they were doesn’t feel fair to anyone.
I’m ok with it. The break up was the best part of the episode.
A more serious episode where the characters lose the ability to mask their feelings but this just comes out in normal verbal interaction might have been better.
The songs were kinda meh, but t
It was a fun episode. But when the original Star Trek theme played after the rift blew up and the bridge crew cheered, i got choked up. They got me with that one.
I really thought they should have been singing the actual GR lyrics to the TOS theme at some point, maybe the climax. Instead of singing about the ‘mission.’
I thought about that, too. But I thought it might have cost them too much money to do it. Funny when one considers why GR wrote the lyrics to begin with.
Well I got it COMPLETELY wrong! Thought this was going to be a horror show but my god this was good.
Some of the singing was excellent, especially from Celia Rose Gooding but also great stuff from Christina Chong, Jess Bush and even Ethan Peck!
Choreography was excellent, especially with Jess Bush in the bar and that finale….WOW!
I gotta say hats off to the actors, composers and arrangers for this episode. I expected this episode to be over the top and at times corny, which it was, but hey, this is fiction and fantasy, so I was ready for the “take me there” moment. I have been a Treker since the 60s, and have seen every second of Trek that has been released, but by profession, I am a recording engineer, producer, arranger and composer, working on projects that range from contemporary, to classical, to world, to traditional musics for commercial, theatrical and large scale event releases, so, with professional curiosity, I was looking forward to hear what musical adventures Toronto/Hollywood had come up with for this episode.
I have always admired Treks high production values, not only visually, but also audio wise. When these episodes drop, I usually watch them in my studio, through my studio monitors, to get the full, juicy sonic experience. When our characters are speaking to each other in engineering for example, you will hear the “ambience” of the large space they are working in (engineering), but when they kick into song, the voices all of a sudden become very dry and up close, very processed, with varying degrees of pitch correction software (from 3 to 11:). That alone took me out of the fantasy. I suppose the solo actors were recorded in a proper isolation booth in a studio. which sound very, very dry, with no acoustics at all. Again, high praise to the creative staff and the actors who sang, BUT there are people on the production staff responsible for continuity, both visual and auditory, and the differences in the way the voices sound in and out of song is very noticable, more so to professional ears, but also to your average Joe (or Josephine). There are ways to minimize these sonic differences, but it looks like nobody paid attention to this or they just did not care (maybe short on time?). Heck, even the musical movies of the 60s did a better job of this.
The song styles were also all over the place, but that may have kept the episode more dynamic. One thing tho, had it not been a musical, these character confessions would have been much shorter.
I know a lot of my production colleagues are also Trekers, and we do look up to the show for its production values, and sorry to say, this one lowered the bar. The episode sort of looked like a lip synced karaoke show.
Well, I hope SNW returns to the science part of science fiction soon. Pike, Spock and Una were much more focused on Discovery than they are on their own ship. Even Prodigy is more of a science fiction than SNW.
The lip syncing took me out of it early on. I realize they have to do that, but it was pretty blatant.
I appreciate your analysis as an expert. I helps me know that i’m not crazy. I do video production but not full on audio engineering. But even to me, I felt there was a lot lacking on the production side – both visually and in terms of audio.
Actually watched it again, this time knowing about those audio bumps on the road, I had an even greater appreciation for the work that the actors put into their performances. My faves, “I’m ready” and “I’m the Ex”.
It was… terrible. Far too indulgent of the cast and producers. I wish somebody had just said No.
That assessment is harsh. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it showed the real range and talent of so many of these writers and actors. I found it to be silly, as most musicals are, but I also am impressed with the quality of the original songs and was pleasantly surprised at how good a singer Ethan Peck actually is.
Well, as I’ve said above, I was able to enjoy the episode, but it isn’t very good Star Trek, and I do wish they’d quit trying to make Trek into something it’s not. I don’t need to see the cast sing and dance to know they’re talented. If this had been a singular one-off, and they quit trying to tie everything in to a larger storyline, I think it would have been better. Combine this with the Lower Decks crossover and get the ridiculousness of both out of the way in one shot.
This is not a harsh assessment by any stretch – if you remember that this is STAR TREK. It should have been a hard “no”, and this isn’t even the only instance this season.
I’ve said it multiple times before, but I feel like the inmates are running the asylum – as in the actors have more say than they should. I read and listened to comments talking about SNW the production of season 2 last year where they were talking about how the direction was going to take more “big swings” similar to The Elysian Kingdom (one of my least favorite episodes of season 1), and I knew things were getting out of control. The cast talked about how much “fun” it was to do that episode. Yes, work should not be painful, but there’s a fine line between having fun and remembering the source material.
Despite the fact that I found this fun (unlike the Spock Comedy episode), I agree with everything you said. I would say it’s not terrible at what it’s trying to be, but it certainly is terrible Star Trek.
Indulgent is definitely the right word for it lol. I was certainly prepared to hate it like you, but actually liked it in the end. But no, I don’t see myself rewatching it a lot either. But it seems to be a hit overall with people based on reading the other boards, especially on Reddit. I can’t wait to see what the IMDB score will look like for this.
It was a very entertaining episode. Christina Chong is a wonderful singer.
I also liked the nod to canon with the mention of a pregnant Carol Marcus. Poor La’an.
The Spock and Chapel relationship seems to be ending now since she will be away falling in love with Roger Korby. That was a very brief off-screen romance. Poor Spock. I guess now we know why he threw the Plomeek soup at her in Amok Time. LOL
Not the best episode out of the season in my opinion, but entertaining.
Cringy Girl glee trek…..
Just skip and delete episode for me. Not that the songs were bad, mind you, but I still hate musical, especially when they are 2 and more singing. This didn’t do anything for me, other then being a cringe illogical episode. The cross over with Lowers decks was much more logical and done with care then this. If they would have done the Klingon’s opera or side of things, it might have been fun.
I’m actually surprised people like this episode. Well, different strokes for different folks, I guess I’m in the minority here. I was expecting silly great songs like in the classic Buffy episode ‘Once more with feeling’ but got a bunch of lame, boring songs that all sound the same. Horrible episode. The only reason I’d rate it 2/10 instead of 1/10 is that absolutely hilarious Klingon scene. With a better songwriter this could have been a legendary episode. Too bad.
I think that some people jumped on early today to make sure and skew it more positively. I’m sure some other social mediums are full of positive publicity. But taking this as JUST a musical and discounting that it’s Star Trek, I thought it was mediocre at best.
Peck could have sung a cover version of Nimoys “Bitter dregs” after Chapel dumped him.
I won’t be surprised if Christine Chapel leaves after this season. I also don’t see Kirk being used again until a series finale when he takes over the Enterprise.
If canon still mattered, then one could only hope that Kirk doesn’t show up. Since canon is out the window, Kirk will be back in season 3 – if and when that ever happens.
I have to say this episode was fantastic. I wasn’t expecting to to be…The writing, the songs that were actually good songs and the lyrics that fitted so well into the story and plot. The production, the choreography… “those negative Nancy self proclaimed did hard fans” will state… Star Trek doesn’t do musicals… yet song played a big part of the last season of DS9 with Vic. And yes Star Trek does to silly comedy… little green men and trials and tribulations!!
When it started I was thinking, “Holy crap! This looks to be very enjoyable and fun for a change!” And it was. Unfortunately the songs ended up all being too similar. Since the new characters are being overshadowed by the classic ones I still don’t really care much about them so the emotional side of the episode ended up falling flat. And that finale was super uninspiring. Once again, the writers need to learn nuance. Subtlety.
All that being said it’s still the 2nd best episode of the series. After 1.10.
I can’t agree with you today. We’re often on the same page, but this one ranks near the bottom for me. Star Trek has done fun before without throwing the baby out with the bath water. The premise alone was enough for me to even think of skipping it. I’m not that kind of person, but I kinda wish I had. But it’s also par for the course for an underwhelming season. 10 episodes, and I think maybe 2 are worth ever going back and watching.
Fair enough. And I can certainly understand where you are coming from. This figured to be an extremely divisive episode to begin with. Even still I expected the people who have been liking the season overall would still like the episode and those who have not been liking it would not find this one any different. I was obviously OK with it. I wish the numbers were better and it didn’t try to get all emotional. The only thing I really enjoyed was the opening number. Beyond that it was repetitive and tiresome. But I do want to give them credit for trying something different. But again, if they did more episodes in a season I think doing something like this would be a safer bet. But with only 10 and they have started so very many storylines already… This didn’t seem like the best choice. Maybe if the show was better….
I expected to hate it.. and I really didn’t. It’s not a great musical or anything, but it is a fun romp. Like I said above, break the 4th wall, Take it out of canon, and this would work a LOT better.
I would probably say there has only been one great episode and one pretty good and the rest of the season has been so average. I actually really enjoyed last season’s final episode and was really looking forward to season 2.
Spock has gone from one of my favourite characters to in this series the most annoying characters. Not really the actor himself who is pretty good but the writing for the character is very poor.
I bought the first season on UHD blu ray, think I’ll be giving this one a miss.
This definitely deserves some kind of award
LOL, nope! Perhaps I watch too much TV and movies, but this doesn’t rank that high on the level of quality that you get from SO MANY OTHER productions that have either included musical numbers or even done a full on musical. Maybe it had potential, but I don’t think the final product is anything more than a ratings stunt.
Okay, cards on the table: I’m a theatre person, and I have sympathy with the “theatrical” elements of it
That was the most fun I’ve had with an episode of Star Trek in a long time. The songs weren’t all to my taste, though the opener was technically really solid. It has some really nice rhythmic and melodic subtleties.
I appreciated that it gave (almost) everyone something to do, and we got to see them working. Sad that we didn’t get enough Ortegas, but I’m glad they actually did something with Number One.
At first I hated the Klingons. I wanted a blast of Opera in the middle of the finale. But the flip into hip-hop with the backup dancers was so over the top that it came back around. Brilliant.
On a technical side, one thing I think they missed the mark on a little was the lip syncing. I know they’re working on a time crunch, and tastes vary, but, to me it seemed that a lot of the folks were very obviously lip syncing. The more seasoned singers sold it (Celia Rose Gooding continues to crush it), but others, not so much (looking at Anson Mount).
Still, I’m really happy this exists. It was fun. If someone doesn’t like Star Trek but has a soft spot for campy musicals, this is a good gateway episode.
I think it was a fail not having the Klingons sing in Klingon. If not an opera then perhaps something for contemporary Klingon. But yeah… These writers just don’t have it in them for something as detailed as that.
I wouldn’t call it a fail myself, but perhaps a missed opportunity. It’s tough enough to learn music as is, and then add in a fictional language and its own musical foibles it might not be worth it. They’d have to really knock that portion out of the park, and I just don’t see any Trek writer pulling that off
Star Trek is usually pretty Shakesperian. Traditionally the actors have had some of that background. Wrapping their mouths around a made up language shouldn’t be too hard for people who can perform that olde English stuff. They had to have hired songwriters for the numbers, right? Put the effort in. Make it work. What we ended up seeing just came across as lazy.
I’m gonna strong disagree on the comparison between Shakespearean English and Klingonese.
Background: I have two linguistics degrees. I specialized in the history and development of English before doing ma MA in Norse. I’m a theatre practitioner, and studied music for 10 years.
Shakespearean English is basically identical to modern English. Words have come and gone from usage, and we’ve changed the value of some vowels, but the gist of it is identical. The phonetic inventory has been stable for a few hundred years.
Klingon was *specifically* designed around being as utterly alien as possible. Weirdest syntax you can imagine. Consonant clusters that just don’t happen normally.
Add in the harmonies and rhythms that don’t follow regular conventions. It’s gonna be damn near impossible to get that into a 20 second bit.
Like, listen to ‘u’ — it’s something else. If it’s not that, it ain’t Klingon opera.
They could make some knockoff Bizet, but that would be so boring. That’d be the lazy way out, imo.
OK. You seem to have the credentials and far be it from me to question your experience.
That said uttering Shakespearian lines, while still english words, is weird and unnatural for today’s language. In that respect memorizing random sounds ought not be that difficult for competent actors. Perhaps making up an authentically alien sounding Klingon song is a tall task. And perhaps would turn a lot of viewers off. But it sure would have helped with creating depth in their universe. And it wasn’t like it had to be 4 minutes long. Just 10-20 seconds of it would have done the job.
I went into this episode with a lot of trepidation but the episode actually was excellent. They embraced the campiness of it all. It had all the vibes of Buffy the Vampire Slayers musical episode.
This is the most original, creative and beautifully realized episode of any Star Trek iteration, ever. Period. They keep hitting it out of the park on SNW!
Settle down.
It’s interesting that when someone responds to overly harsh negativity (which seems to permeate here) they are clapped back with “I’m allowed to have an opinion too!”
But when someone is overly positive your response is “settle down.”
Very very interesting.
I’d much rather celebrate people’s love and positivity than encourage hate and negativity and force everyone to be as miserable as ML31.
O
Overall I liked it, but far from love it!
I think like many, I wasn’t sure what to even think of the idea when most assumed it would be a musical. On one hand, yeah, interesting and unique for Star Trek that’s for sure lol. On another level, this could be a total disaster that’s just beyond cringe and an embarrassment for Trek as a whole that would sit in its rightful place with other noteworthy disasters from Spock’s Brain to These Are The Voyages. But this one done in spectacular fashion. It was a gamble for sure, but thankfully I think it was mostly successful and will be considered one of the whackier but memorable episodes that many will truly love and embrace. Others…not so much.
For me, not being a musical person at all, but certainly liked many growing up, this was definitely a fun episode. I thought the songs were very fun and enjoyable, more than I thought they would be, but it was still a bit too many for me. But the story itself and how it supposedly happened was confusing. I gave up trying to understand Spock’s very deep technobabble of the event and its ‘musical reality’. I actually just wish they went super silly with it and met a large pink alien unicorn in space who sprouted out some bizarre space glitter from its horns onto the Enterprise that made the crew sing and dance in order to save the multiverse or help conceive a unicorn baby or something.
But I did like it, especially the Klingon boy band lol. Easily the best part for me. I laughed so hard. But everyone put a lot of effort into their roles and were mostly good, but La’An and Uhura were definitely the stand outs IMO. I did like how we got some actual story in there with Kirk and Carol Marcus or Chapel breaking up with Spock (thanks Boimler ;)).
Overall, I thought it was good, but still not amazing. I’m always happy to see Trek try to shake it up a bit, especially with 800+ stories and counting, but I highly doubt this will be much of a rewatch for me in the future. But I’m happy for the people who truly loved it.
Yeah, definitely Celia Rose Gooding and Christina Chong were the stellar voices, but I was also impressed with Rebecca Romijn’s vocal stylings. The guys, not so much haha but they did not embarrass themselves.
Also liked how they progressed the stories of Kirk and La’an as well as Chapel and Spock. Yeah Boimler did play a big role in making sure Spock stayed on course haha.
Absolutely loved it.
I’m pretty sure Nichelle Nichols would have broken down and wept over Celia Rose Gooding’s performance. Fantastic.
AGREED!!!
She’s the vocal standout of the whole thing, and it’s not close.
I thought it was fantastic! Really enjoyed this musical episode 😃
It’s over.
I’ve already felt this multiple times this season, but this one took the cake. Star Trek as I knew it and loved it pre-Secret Hideout is officially gone. Picard season 3 was the last thing even closely resembling Star Trek, and even it had its issues. But what SNW has proven is that what I call Star Trek and what the powers-that-be in the Kurtzman world call “Star Trek” are not the same thing.
The worst part is, this isn’t even the best version of a terrible concept. They could have at least made something that would be memorable enough to sing the songs over and over (whether you want to or not), but that’s not even the case. Looking at it as solely a musical, it’s still mediocre at best.
SNW season 2 was already ranking a lot lower than season 1 to me, but now I don’t think I can even compare them anymore. And once again, the premise of the episode excluded a “Strange New World”. I mean there was a spacial anomaly, and for past Trek’s, that would have sufficed because there may have been more to discover about the anomaly and that could have worked as a “new world”. Instead, we once again explore the feelings, relationships, and dynamics of the crew – just this time in song. The universe be damned! At least we had a chance to see them dance!
Someone in an early post on this article compared this to TOS’s The Naked Time, but I don’t think that’s fair to TOS. The Naked Time was FAR SUPERIOR to this episode in that it gave a plausible reason for the crew to lose their inhibitions, and the interactions were MUCH MORE interesting. The fact that Subspace Rhapsody decided to use the “multiple universes” excuse to somehow explain the idea that a “musical universe” exists and there’s even rules that it follows that were apparently created by Broadway just sits poorly with me. Maybe this can somehow be put into a “out of universe” category and ignored, but SNW season 2 has already had enough other fails that it’s just par for the course.
Oh, I’ve given up on Secret Hideout Trek over a year ago. For reasons that have been stated here ad nauseum. My only hope is after a lengthy writers & actors strike the Secret Hideout deal is somehow ended. Trek goes away for a bit but resurfaces later with better people involved. Maybe we don’t need self proclaimed Trek fans running things. Just new people who will respect the source material.
This site needs a block button ASAP
I’ve been a proponent of that for quite some time. Doesn’t look like it’s going to happen. My personal block “button” has been to see a name of someone I no longer wish to engage and just move past the post without reading a word. It does work pretty good.
…. because people having a different opinion should be blocked?…..I’m assuming IDIC is not your thing.
To be fair, for me it’s not about different opinions/takes. I’ve only done that to people who were insulting, stalkers or troublemakers. And of the few I’ve done it to all but one has been banned. And the last one I just don’t see around all that much anymore.
Dude… we know. We ALL know. I’m all for everyone sharing their perspectives but you just spam the same ones over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. We know what you think. We get it.
Who’s “we”? You don’t get to speak every everyone. You don’t like what I say then either ignore it or engage me and talk about it. No need to react in such a way. It’s not a good look.
Cut the music from it and it is watchable. I hate musicals and this did not sway me!
In space, everyone can hear you sing!
Well I just checked IMDB and yeah this is not going to be the runaway hit I thought it might be just reading some of the first reactions. At the moment, the episode sits at 6.6. Thats very low for this show. Not Discovery ratings low, but low for SNW. It’s the second lowest ranked episode of the show overall with Elysian Kingdom being the lowest with 6.1. And it’s the only other episode that has fallen in the 6 category out of 19 episodes.
Of course it’s early it can still move up (or move down) but starting that low from the start tells me this episode is a divisive one and probably will stay between 6.5-7. It’s not going to be a fan favorite, put it that way.
Now compare that to Those Old Scientists that started with a 9.4 rating immediately after it aired and currently sits at 9.2. And that is still the top rated rated episode of the show overall.
“Elysian Kingdom” has a 6.1…? That’s preposterous.
LOL, sad but true!
But I will admit, on a rewatch of it, it’s not as strong as I originally felt and it’s the second worst episode of season 1 for me. The pacing felt super slow as well. I wouldn’t rate it that low personally but probably in the low 7’s.
As far as Subspace Rhapsody, yeah a 6.5 is about where I would rate that one so it’s right on target for me.
I’d be interested in seeing the distribution of when the scores were submitted. If there were a slew of low scores within moments of it being possible to watch the episode, that would maybe be indicative of some reactionary brigading.
To be clear, I’m not suggesting that’s happened here – people are 100% allowed to like/dislike what they want – but it is curious.
Reading more of the reviews, it reflects the score because it doesn’t seem to be a lot of people in the middle. The people who like it seems to REALLY like it and the people who hate it REALLY hates it. But sure I would be curious too.
But no one should be surprised lol. Most people thought it was a weird idea from the start and many were apprehensive about it. Very few people thought this was an amazing idea. But I think a lot more people liked it than they thought they would and that includes myself.
But making a Star Trek ‘musical’ a home run for a lot of hardcore sci fi geeks was always going to be an uphill battle.
lol, yeah, I’m not surprised in the least bit surprised at the reviews given the what these pages have been like over the last few weeks. I don’t have any problem with people disliking the episode, but I know some folks heralded the mere concept as the Death of Star Trek, which just seemed silly to me.
Definitely an uphill battle. It was successful for me, and that’s the vote I care most about. :)
That’s not a horrible rating either. The reality is MOST Trek episodes there usually fall between 6 and 7 which is about average. Anything 5 and below is considered bad. So people definitely didn’t like it, but it’s not a trash rating or anything.
And I liked the episode as well, but that’s about the rating I would give it personally as well.
yeah, I think I’d likely give it ~7/10
I tend to rate things on a 1-5 scale, without decimal options, with 3 being the typical about which I have no disqualifying complaints. I’d probably put this at 4 overall on that rubric
Btw Tiger2, I think you said this a few weeks ago, that a musical episode would draw attention from the mainstream entertainment media and not just the science fiction pundits. Well after looking at this morning’s coverage, it looks like you were right. From the LA Times to the EW, Variety (which has picked up many SNW stories), Vuture and The Guardian just to name a few. No, not as much as the Picard finale, but no bad. We shall see if it translates to the Nielson ratings.
Wow that is great to hear! :)
Not surprising this episode would bring some non-Trek media buzz for a change. It’s a big first for what they did and its great people are paying attention.
I’m pretty sure the ratings will be huge. I don’t know as big as TOS because people genuinely seem very excited about the crossover. This is more out of curiosity but I think every Trek fan who has P+ probably watched it, at least a little.
Haha TOS now has a new meaning!! Very appropriate!
No it doesn’t.
Well it has another meaning now which I think DeanH means.
Every time I see it I think one thing.
Sorry. It’s engrained.
I think pretty much everyone here does as well.
As you have said, the posts for E9 really seem to demonstate people either really liked it or hated it.
As a kid, I grew up loving Star Trek and science fiction, but my parents also loved musicals, music and singing (along with sports and good food) so I really liked last night’s episode.
That said, I totally understand why some are appalled of the thought of a musical episode and why the concept was polarizing.
An “uphill battle” indeed, but one I personally am happy they took on.
Yeah it’s actually funny reading the reviews here. One post says ‘this was absolutely fantastic and a stunning achievement that is now the best episode to date’ but then the next one after that is ‘I am appalled this thing even exists and someone should be fired for making this embarrassment’. Yeah VERY divided man. ;)
But I actually went back to see what the review rating is on IMDB now and it actually went up. It’s currently at 6.9 now which is pretty impressive that it jumped this high in a day. It will fluctuate for weeks obviously but I might have to take back my original assessment and this ends up being a bit more popular than what I thought. The episode may ultimately land in the 7s somewhere. Still not amazing, but certainly an improvement if it happens.
I don’t follow into either of those. I didn’t hate it, like usual. Nor was it great. It started out promising but ended up, meh. Which is pretty good for SNW.
Same, I’m mostly in the middle like you are. I didn’t cry with joy watching it but I didn’t feel like I was being tortured by watching it either. ;)
IMDb users have some biases. Rom-coms and pure romances don’t tend to do all that well. Musicals are a little hit or miss there but they usually have a rabid fan base to combat the naysayers (I can’t really explain The Greatest Showman outranking Chicago otherwise).
I’m guessing a lot Trek fans in general are not big musical fans either. Again you can’t be surprised because for two months now on this board people were complaining about it being a musical. It was always going to be a hard sell. But I did think maybe after it ran and seeing how much others loved it, it would be a bigger hit kind of the Lower Decks crossover turned out. But as this board is proving, it’s a pretty divided view.
You remember how divisive Vic Fontaine was at the time. Still is, probably.
LOL oh yeah! ;)
horrible turned it off
What the f was that
I’m not a fan of musicals, but had to sit through the whole thing anyway in case there was some plot progression elsewhere.
It was torture. Thankfully I don’t ever have to watch it again if I ever return to rewatch SNW.
I’m happy to see the mostly positive reaction to this episode. It works because the writers have taken the time to give over two seasons and just 19 episodes (more for Pike thanks to Discovery) to let us get to know these characters. I have a better understanding of this crew than I ever did for VOY, ENT and especially Discovery. SNW, like TOS, TNG and DS9 is a true ensemble cast. Will this be an episode I rewatch often? Probably not. It was a heck of a showcase though for the talent of the writers, crew and especially the cast. Hate that the season is almost over and season 3 feels a long, long way away thanks to the current strikes.
Finale looks like a doozy with Pike likely to encounter more heartache and misery.
Shout out to Wil Wheaton on The Ready Room too. He does a nice job hosting and I enjoyed his interview with the very lovely and talented Christina Chong.