Behr on Voyager, Trek XI & Future of 4400 |
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Behr on Voyager, Trek XI & Future of 4400 May 30, 2007

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Star Trek (2009 film),Trek Franchise , trackback

Deep Space Nine executive producer and showrunner Ira Steven Behr has been spending the last few years running the time travel related show The 4400 on USA. attended a press round table discussing the premiere of season 4 and the subject of Star Trek came up. Behr was asked if he had a view about J.J. Abrams taking over Trek and the return to Kirk and Spock. At first said that he didn’t have any strong feelings, but then went on to talk about the franchise, saying…

For one bright shining moment I thought there was a Camelot. For Deep Space Nine they let us really mess around with the formula quite a bit and maybe that was bad or good I don’t know. …I still remember the day (and I loved Michael Piller) but the craziest thing he ever said to me is when he came into my office and said “listen Ira you are doing a great job on Deep Space Nine, but you just have to realize that Voyager is coming out and it is going to be the tentpole for the franchise and you will always be in the shadow of Voyager because that is the real Star Trek.”  But I can point to the moment when they put the Maquis into the Starfleet uniforms, that was the beginning of the retreat.

Since then it has always been trying to regain the past and that is the only thing I can say about the movie. It’s the safe thing, it could be a huge hit, it could be the greatest thing of all time, but the fact that they had to go backwards into the future…the Marshal McLuahan thing where ‘we march backwards into the future’ when he was talking about the media, well that is a perfect example of it by having to go back to Kirk and Spock. But I wish em luck because what ever is good for Star Trek will sell Deep Space Nine DVDs.

Regarding Abrams and his team (Lindelof, Orci, Kurtzman) Behr said he had no opinion, because he wasn’t familiar with any of their work. In fact Behr noted that he really doesn’t watch much current TV, even saying he had never seen Heroes – a show that is often compared to The 4400. He also noted that even though people often asked him about the similarities between Babylon 5 and DS9, he had only seen one B5 episode and that was because B5 actor Bill Mumy was a neighbor and showed it to him.  He did say he likes The Office, 30 Rock and Venture Brothers and the HBO dramas (Deadwood, Sopranos, & Rome. Regarding DS9’s position in the franchise Behr said he always bristled at comments that Deep Space Nine ‘wasn’t Star Trek’ or didn’t follow in Gene Roddenberry’s vision. He felt that Roddenberry was at first a creative person and that he would understand in the end the need for change and in Behr’s opinion the shows lost that, saying "The safer the franchise got, the weaker it got."

The 4400 has more Trek connections beyond Behr. The show was created by DS9 writer/producer René Echevarria. Last season saw a number of episodes written by DS9 writer/producer Robert Hewitt Wolfe. In addition Trek recurring actor Jeff Combs has become a recurring character on The 4400, and Behr says he will appear in about half the shows this upcoming season. Behr would like to have more actors from DS9 on the show, but noted that it isn’t as easy when you are shooting in Canada. However he said he is currently working on a deal to have an unnamed recurring actress from DS9 do a 3 episode arc at the end of the 4th season. [UPDATE: Behr has sent a follow up confirming they have signed Penny Johnson (DS9: Kasidy Yates)] Behr also promised more sci-fi elements with fewer ‘freak of the week’ type of episodes, including more scenes set in the future. He also let slip "we finally answer (or may answer) what it is all about" meaning the overall mythology regarding the saving of the future and the original abduction of the 4400.  Season 4 of The 4400 kicks off June 17.


1. SHANE S. - May 30, 2007

I felt that DS9 started slow but got better once it was no longer landlocked and had the Defiant, only got better from there amd the introductoion of Worf cemented its improvement, but I think many mainstream viewers who were non star trek fans were gone. I think Ds9’s rep will improve over the years on DVD, the same for Enterprise.

2. Fraser Link - May 30, 2007

I think you can absolutely make a case for DS9 being the best of the lot over the past 40 years.

As Shane S. said, for the first two seasons, like most shows, there were growing pains, but from late-second season onward, it just ascended and it never stopped – right down to that last painful shot of Jake Sisko gazing out into the abyss at the series’ end.

3. Anthony Pascale - May 30, 2007

i think DS9 is a fantastic show and it certainly is Star Trek. Regarding what Behr said about Trek XI…he is probably right. It is probably the least risky thing when you look at all options to go with a return to TOS. I would love to see a new bold adventure with a new crew and maybe even a new era, but I still feel that that could best be done on TV. For a film you just wont have time to do it right, so using classic characters is the best move (TNG not working anymore with audiences and Stewart not wanting it anyway…and the other shows not having enough resonance)

I would love to see another Trek show made by Behr

4. Big Bill Cox - May 30, 2007

I agree with the previous posts. DS9 really took off after the 3rd season when they got the Defiant, and once Worf was added to the cast and the conflict with the Dominion went into high gear the show became damn near perfect. It’s a shame that the show was overshadowed by Voyager (a much inferior show to be sure) and didn’t get the recognition it deserved. In seven seasons it produced not only some of the best Treks ever, but some of the best television I’ve ever watched, period.

5. Craig S. - May 30, 2007

DS9 was my favorite among the Star Trek series. The characters and the cast were well developed and very entertaining to watch. My wife, who is not a fan of the Kirk era (or sci-fi in general), loved watching DS9 for the stories and the presence of strong female characters. We know own the entire DS9 DVD collection because of her enjoyment of the show.

Star Trek grew in popularity not for the special effects, but for the stories it showcased. DS9 was a well written show and it did keep to the Star Trek “canon.” Sometimes wars need to be fought to save paradise (a reference to earth from the show). DS9 relates well with what the US is currently going through. Plus, out of all the captains from the show, Captain Sisko was the most human.

I love the idea of improving the original series through CBS digital, however, I am not sure they need to re-invent the characters of the original series. What Star Trek needs is a brake from itself. It also needs to stay focused on the idea/ belief that humanity will eventually evolve into a better society than it is today.

Paramount has gotten to the point that it needs to find a cash cow since it has not performed at the box office life it did in years past. I just hope they do not destroy or damage a franchise like Star Trek. I concur with some of the actors from the show stating that the show should move forward, not look back into the past (although Enterprise help show how the Star Trek universe came to being, which was a great idea, it just should have been syndicated and filmed in Canada to help control cost instead of sinking with the ship formally known as UPN).

Ira Steven Behr, great job with DS9!

6. JLC - May 30, 2007

DS9 was never slow. It started strong and just kept getting better. It never needed 2 seasons to define it self unlike TNG or VOY..

7. Mark 2000 - May 30, 2007

Push aside the fact that the war in DS9 was boring and trite, its major downfall , IMHO, was the fact that every character needed to hook up with every other character. Someone like Odo who was a perfect rock of a character was so sickening to watch in love – more so than even Scotty. When I watch the romance on DS9 I feel like its written by 14 year olds – or at least for them.

8. Dennis Bailey - May 30, 2007


9. Sean-1701 - May 30, 2007

Deep Space Nine was a good show, but always will be my least favorite of the Trek series. It had a great start, with Trek-like episodes such as “Move Along Home,” “Second Skin,” “Paradise,” etc. but got bogged down in the Dominion War too heavily by Season 5. It still had its moments, but the whole Section 31 garbage (handled much better, thankfully, in Enterprise) was antithetical to the optimistic future, IMO and many episodes were just…not very Trek at all. No exploration, sci-fi, aliens of the week, etc.

I’d agree with Piller that Voyager was the tentpole of the franchise. It’s my favorite (followed very closely by Enterprise and then TOS!) and had the most creative sci-fi plots, optimism, exploration, time travel and everything, I feel, that made Trek great. Enterprise had awesome continuity and TOS is just a timeless classic.

To summarize:
Voyager = A+; Enterprise = A+; TOS = A+; TNG=B; DS9=C+

Still, all Trek is better than 100% of the currently running non-animated shows on network first-run primetime today.

10. Jared harris - May 30, 2007

Deep Space Nine is my wifes favorite of all treks. My favorite being the oriniginal with the holy triumvirate of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. I have to say Behr and company did a bang up job on the whole series from season 1 to 7, and I don’t think that any of the present day Star Treks can hold a candle to DS9 when you talk about character development and just good stories. I think Next Generation was often times to preachy, Voyager may as well been named Boyager because of the sexy chick in spandex, and Enterprise was the uptimiate safe gambit with a Sci-Fi vet as captian and producers that were wanting to walk over or step on any references to the original series. Berman and Braga should have lost their jobs a long time ago, and it just goes to show that studio execs don’t always have clue one what makes good TV ie DS9 or bad movies ie any next gen movie.

11. Darth Ballz - May 30, 2007

What’s funny is that all this talk about Voyager shadowing DS9, it got better ratings than Voyager, also it was character drivin and the best of the lot and that includes the “original”. Each series has a bright spot but Beir was right in saying that the safer the weaker, Enterprise was bad unitl the 3rd season but it was to late!
With all the choices now it will be a hard sell for a movie and you won’t see a series for a long, long time!!!!

Darth “My DS9 is bigger” Ballz

12. Craig - May 30, 2007

Is Paramount waiting to see if Trek XI is a hit before they think about trying a new TV series?

13. Kevin - May 30, 2007

I loved DS9. Although a rocky start after the 2nd season (like most Trek after TOS) it ended up being a terrific show. The cast/crew had such wonderful chemistry. The stories were much more character driven and less anomaly of the week driven. To me it still felt like trek and I never really understood the too dark and too far removed from Roddenberry’s utopian vision of the future. Earth and the Federation were still the paradise and self-righteous people of morality we’ve all come to know and love. The difference was that it was more about exploring characters than the galaxy. To me that was great b/c it gave me a chance to be more than just entertained or made to think by Trek, but it gave me a chance to be moved by emotions.

In reference to the comment about UPN- yeah, it will always be my belief that UPN played a big part in killing Trek. Trek always has done better in syndication than any one network. It’s a good thing they didn’t decide to launch the network in the 70’s with Star Trek Phase II or we wouldn’t have the movies or wonderful shows that followed.

14. Kyle Nin - May 30, 2007

I never felt that Voyager ever overshadowed anything.

15. Redshirt - May 30, 2007

Personally I never liked Behr as much….he seemed so Anti Trek. in a interview he stated he hated Star Trek being too bright and hopeful. If the Movie goes that route he s going to hate it. As much as he was excellent in the realm of character it was the plot driven political stories that made me gag and were a clear rip off of that other space station show that will remain nameless..
I still believe each spin off had its share of problems but with each one they didn’t learn from the mistakes . With ENT it was the bottom of the barrel.
Each writer was writing stories in that style on each previous trek show they worked on. Until new writers and producers were brought in the shows improved in quality. It shouldn’t take 3-4 years to improve you show.
Its funny when people said Voyager was the beginning of the ratings bleed when it was really DS9. Worf was a ratings stunt because Paramount never liked the ratings for this show compared to its younger counterpart. Pure and simple.

16. Tony - May 30, 2007

It seems people either really love DS9 or really hate it. And, from the comments on here, that feeling seems to be so for Voyager too. Here’s my two cents…

DS9 was the most daring and innovative of the TNG-era shows (I am including ENT in this given that ENT evolved out of the set of TV series running since TNG’s 1987 debut). If you asked me 5 years ago, I’d say it was the best show. However, thanks in no small part to the availability of TOS on G4, TV Land and the remastered runnings, I have rediscovered the brilliance of TOS and see that it has indeed aged quite well.

TNG hasn’t aged quite as well. Although I am an eternal optimist, I find that the utopia TNG strived to show was just a bit too sugary for me to believe, especially in the earlier seasons. I still very much enjoy TNG. It, more so that TOS the series, along with the TOS movies, is what hooked me on Trek. I still think that Seasons 3-6 of TNG will hold up against just about any other TV show. The bar is that high. That being said, I still think that TOS and DS9 set that bar even so much higher.

ENT and VOY had flaws that just never could quite get them over the hump, in my opinion. I will disagree with some of the comments that DS9 was weak from the beginning. I think what DS9 and VOY have in common is that both started out very strong. However, DS9 only got better, while VOY seemed to revert to fanboyism as it aged. Thanks to Spike, I’ve watched a lot of Voyager lately… they’re on the second run-through of the show, so I’ve had a chance to see a lot of the show across the board. Spike just started the 2nd Season today. The show was so much more interesting in the beginning. I will agree the that putting the Maquis in uniforms and integrating into the crew was a bit rushed, but at least we still saw conflict and dissent from some Maquis crew. The episode where Tuvok starts a training regiment for some of the Maquis underlings was just on yesterday. Early VOY also had a sense of danger and consequence to actions. The Kazon, admittedly not the best villains conceived, and the Viidians were good foils for the lost crew. By later seasons, the show seemed to have a complacence. Too many plots revolved around stealing technology from the Borg. 7 of 9 was an interesting development for the show, but took too much focus, and I think at the cost of an underdeveloped character and great talent in Jennifer Lien’s Kes. DS9 seemed to get better with age, while VOY got worse.

ENT is hard to categorize. I’m not a big person to complain about continuity violations, because you can rationally explain away most of the supposed issues people have taken with the show. For instance, a lot of people took major issue with the Xindi conflict and the attack against Florida, reasoning it’d have been a major historical reference that should have been in TOS or TNG-era for us to have seen in the ENT-era. I say, fooey! In TOS, in one season mind you, we had a planet killer wipe out countless entire star systems and a giant bacteria kill millions too… far greater destruction than what the Xindi did, yet never again mentioned.

I think ENT’s problem is that it meandered too long without vision and that by the time it had established a vision, it was too late to catch on. 3rd and 4th season ENT really hit a stride. I have to think a 5th, 6th and 7th season of shows would have really added a nice luster and shine to that series… I also have to think we would have had more resolution to the some of the open threads. I imagine we’d have returned to the temporal cold war, although not as a crutch to sell stories, but rather as a story that was to be told out of fan interest… I would have loved to see a reveal on future guy and learn more of the future of the Xindi and the Suliban (which might have delved more into why they weren’t as prominent in future Trek), not to mention the conflict with the Romulans and the seeds of future conflict with the Klingons. Too bad we didn’t get any of that, and therefore can’t judge the show on it. ENT is like the Richard Nixon of Star Trek… moments of brilliance wrapped with moments of utter failure.

In my mind, my ranking of Trek shows is as follows (excluding TAS as I’ve not had enough exposure to it)…

1. TOS
2. DS9
3. TNG
4. ENT
5. VOY

ENT and VOY are hard to place… don’t misunderstand me… I find enjoyment in both and would prefer them to hours of other mindless TV out there, but thinking critically, it’s hard to place ENT or VOY on the high platform with the rest of the Trek crop.

Just for for, here’s my movie ranking (while I’m at it):

3. ST: TMP — an underappreciated work of genius… especially the 2001 Director’s Cut
4. ST: FC
5. STIV: TVH — like TNG (the series), it hasn’t aged as well as some of the other entries, but I still enjoy this one… it has a sense of fun to it, but at the same time, it lacks a few of the dramatic elements that have placed some of the other films higher on my list
7. ST: G
8. STV: TFF — it had a bunch of flaws, but I think it’s aged better than some of the TNG movies, and I really can appreciate what Shat was trying to accomplish… worthy of a higher mark than others just for the really strong showing of the triumverate, and for daring to toy with some of the supporting characters a bit (Scotty and Uhura… great idea… why not continue the relationship in TUC?; “Captain Chekov”… great use of ole’ Pavel)
9. ST: I – had some interesting concepts, but just comes off as a TNG two parter with better effects… not a bad film, but lacks the theatric flare and gravitas to be a great film
10. ST: N – I so wanted to like the film… too many flaws, too much character development left on the editing room floor, too much emphasis on emulating TWOK… why not more focus on the Romulans, why reinvent the wheel with B4 (paging Lore, paging Lore… where are you?), why give Picard a foil in a Dr. Evil to his Austin Powers… uggh… I was delusional at first and defended this turkey in forums like this for a long time, but given almost five years to think it over, I find it just doesn’t cut the mustard… at least it shatters the old odd/even myth… hey, look at my list… it doesn’t subscribe to that concept!

17. Dennis Bailey - May 30, 2007

#11: “What’s funny is that all this talk about Voyager shadowing DS9, it got better ratings than Voyager”

DS9 and “Voyager” got very similar ratings throughout the time that both series ran – DS9’s were somewhat higher in the two years before “Voyager” premiered, and “Voyager’s” ratings continued to decline in the two years after DS9 folded.

TNG was, of course, far more widely watched than either of them.

18. jonboc - May 30, 2007

I liked Ds9 and I think it clearly had the best characters outside the original series..except when Worf was added. That stunt, along with the ridiculous romance with Dax almost made me bail. While I always enjoyed the other characters, I hated it when the show got bogged down by the politics of Bajor. And it really pissed me off that every week we heard about ships coming and going through the wormhole, but the main characters never went! The perfect chance to explore strange new worlds was never realized…how sad considering the opportunity was always there…right there beside the station.

19. Crusade2267 - May 30, 2007

I am probably in the minority here, but I actually liked Voyager better than DS9. At one point, DS9 and Voyager were on at the same time on different channels, and I watched Voyager, because I liked the “going to strange new worlds” kind of Star Trek. It wasn’t TOS or TNG, but it was still better than people give it credit for (and a hell of a lot better than Enterprise).

Besides, I thought Babylon 5 was far superior to DS9. It was more epic, more well crafted. Even if DS9 wasn’t copying B5 so much in the end, I definately think they were in the beginning. Season 1 of both shows plays out similarly. Political machinations on a space station whose name ends in a number. The Narn and the Centauri hate each other’s guts because the Centauri occupied Narn for a century. Substitute Narn for Bajoran.

20. stallion - May 30, 2007

First if they ever did make a TV movie for DSN then they should ask Ira Steven Behr to helm the project. At first I didn’t like DSN until season four but after rewatching the first three season I change my opinion about it for the better. Despite DSN being a better show when it comes to planning a head and stuff like that Voyager was easier to watch. I think all the stuff that people complained about Voyager the writers didn’t make the same mistake with Enterprise. On Enterprise stuff that happened on one episode came back and haunted the crew. Also Voyager was the highest rated show for UPN and it launch the network so of course Voyager got more promotion then DSN.

21. MichaelJohn - May 30, 2007

#16 Tony…I see you are a man of few words!

It’s interesting reading all the different opinions regarding the ST spin off series. I for one am a big DS9 fan, and I found it the most consistently enjoyable series, after TOS.

It’s good to read that even Enterprise is beginning to get a little credit, after so many years of negative reviews. LIke many others, I thought Enterprise had a very rocky start, but by the last two seasons it really did begin to improve. In many ways I preferred the last two seasons of Enterprise over any season of Voyager. (Sorry Voyager fans!)

After Star Trek XI is complete..I do hope they will produce another Trek television series… the show must go on!

Go Niners!

Mike :o

22. Gabriel Bell - May 30, 2007


I’m an apologist. I love all Trek. And Keep up the great work AP.

DS9 is probably my all-time favorite. And not just because Sisko saved my reputation on that fateful day (15-years-or-so from now) in the San Fran Sanctuary Districts.

23. Gabriel Bell - May 30, 2007

Uh, make that 22nd and 23rd! (I left the browser window open for an hour before posting.)

24. Buckaroohawk - May 30, 2007

After TOS, DS9 is far and away my favorite Trek series. I was captivated from the first episode and loved it from start to finish. I enjoyed its sharper edge, the bit of tarnish it brought to the “shiny, happy people” world that 24th Century Trek had become. Avery Brooks was such a powerful performer, and the interactions between the characters were richly textured.

And I dare you to find an episode of DS9 where Jake Sisko saved the space station. That alone should make the show tops on any Trek fan’s list.

25. Demode - May 30, 2007

I really hope we don’t get any new TV shows for a while. I would rather they make movies every few years instead, and maybe a couple of DVD movies with the older tv show crews (DS9/ VOY/ DS9). If a new TV show is made, they risk having the movies make less money. Why go to the show when you can watch something on television? I always thought Voyage and DS9 hurt the TNG movies, s they where all on at the same time.

As for DS9, I feel that it was the best of the Star Trek series!

26. trektacular - May 31, 2007

I liked DS9 before it became a show about wars and shadow agencies. It was good the first two years when it was mainly about reconstructing Bajor and how a Starfleet crew reacts to being on an alien outpost.

27. Ben - May 31, 2007

He’s right of course. Trek XI is a safe bet that will make money. Hollywood doesn’t want to take risks which is why we ended up with tripe like Voyager and Enterprise.

Nobody is willing to try something different unless they know it’s going to be a success.

28. Doug L. - May 31, 2007

DS9 is probably my favorite, with TOS & TNG hanging a bare thread below in ranking. It’s the richest tapestry woven, with the most developed character arcs of all the series.

Every series has a ramp up period to find it’s feet… I feel season one was a bit silly much of the time. But 2 – 6 I think are all incredible. I love the Bajoran political stuff, I love the Dominion War.

My biggest let down was that season 7 lost a lot of steam. Got silly again. Death of Dax was poorly handled, and I thought the finale sucked.
Curious about what others think of season 7 and the finale’.

I think there was a chemistry with Behr, Wolfe and Ron Moore that seemed to work. I believe Wolfe left before season 7 and for me it showed, something was missing.

Doug L.

29. Lao3D - May 31, 2007

I enjoyed a lot of what DS9 did or attempted to do. My biggest issue with the show was Avery Brooks. His stilted line delivery and sometimes hammy performances make Shatner look postively restrained. Okay maybe that’s overstating it, but still…

Of course, I had serious issues with Bakula’s “aw shucks” speechifying and Mulgrew’s generally unpleasant demeanor, so maybe I’m just a post-Kirk/Picard Captain-hater. But on some levels I think that helped lead to the decline of series Trek — the lack of a truly charismatic central lead to carry the show. Which I think, in spite of their faults, Shatner and Stewart were.

30. Floydhead Max! - May 31, 2007

I always thought the writing was better on DS9 than most of the other spinoffs. It’s what made it one of my favorites.

31. Jeff Jacobs - May 31, 2007

OK, I’ll throw my two strips of latinum in, too – I think that DS9 was the most complex of all Trek series, with characters (especially Sisko and O’Brien) that were more fully formed and real than most other characters in the other series. Avery Brooks is not only one of the best actors ever in Star Trek, but Sisko is a great captain.

As for Voyager, it was very uneven – sometimes producing great TV, other times laying a big egg. While somebody compared ENT to Nixon’s Presidency, I’d relate more closely to JFK – terminated prematurely. Manny Cotto had the series going in a really interesting direction, the Andorians and Tellarites were terrific, and I was looking forward to the connection to TOS. I also LOVED the NX-01, a very cool ship, and I hope that JJ Abrams and his guys use it for a design reference for ST-XI

32. hi there - May 31, 2007

Here are my series grades:

TOS A+, TNG A, VOY A-, ENT A-, and DS9 B+

33. bdrcarter - May 31, 2007

The DS9 team should take comfort in knowing that many of the fans consider the show the best of all the series. It was so bold for a Trek franchise (after Ira took over) and they created a rich tapestry of story and characters that still worked within the Roddenberry universe.

I hope the show finds its audience and respect over time…as TOS series did.

34. Lord Garth Formerly of Izar - May 31, 2007

I also live DS9 but Behr and it was more or less excellent all the way through. It had to be they were lifting superior storylines directly from B5 and putting their own spin on things. It might have been outright theft but what a brilliant thief Behr was. Not only was DS9 the only great spinnoff show but it was a great show in it’s own right. You can send your thank you notes to J Michael Straczynski. His claims that he never saw but one B5 epsiode is certainly funny.

35. cloudynow - May 31, 2007


36. CmdrR. - May 31, 2007

DS9 was a new and valid approach for Trek at the time. It hit bumps, but found its stride. Yes, there were some turkeys in the first season — notably, “Move Along Home.” The re-introduction of Worf was also a mixed bag. It’s as if his character forgot for a whole season that he wasn’t fresh out of the academy; he acted like he did in season one of TNG.
Having said all that, DS9 and Behr made excellent use of long story arcs intersected with shorter ones. And it was to everyone’s good fortune that DS9 and B5 were BOTH strong series with much overlap.
When things go wrong, critics quickly jump on the “They violated Roddenberry’s vision” bandwagon. Re-read Shatner’s views on Roddenberry in season three of TOS. Gene’s vision at that point was apparently merchandizing and bedding down chicks. The dream is good. The dreamers have to keep coming in fresh. It’s a wearing down process. I look forward to watching JJ’s turn at the helm.

37. CmdrR. - May 31, 2007

^ without much overlap

38. Dr. Image - May 31, 2007

#32 You got it!
DS9 was the best written, acted, and directed of ANY Trek series.
It already has respect- the type of critical respect that VOY or ENT will NEVER have.
#33- DS9 ripped off from B5?? HAAAHAA!! You’re funny.
#34- Hmm. Yes.

39. CmdrR. - May 31, 2007

oh… as to a DS9 movie to “resolve” the missing Sisko issue…
Some cliffhangers aren’t supposed to be resolved. Does anyone remember, or want to remember “Scarlett?” (Alexandra Ripley’s authorized sequel to Gone With the Wind.)

40. Lord Garth Formerly of Izar - May 31, 2007

CmdrR – can’t say I caught that one

41. Lord Edzo - May 31, 2007

Look, the facts speak for themselves:

DS9 alumni Behr + Echevarria + Wolfe = a hit show with “The 4400.”

DS9 alumnus Ron Moore = a hit show with “Battlestar Galactica.”

TNG/VGR/ENT alumnus Brannon Braga = flop with “Threshold.”

Paramount hired the wrong team to run “Enterprise.” Moore’s swift departure from “Voyager” was an unfortunate blow to Braga’s mediocre show. Paramount should have listened to Behr’s ideas for refreshing “Enterprise.”

Ira Steven Behr is one of the best producers ever to work on “Star Trek.” His noninvolvement with “Enterprise,” “Nemesis” and “Star Trek 11″ is regrettable.

But “The 4400″ still kicks ass. Can’t wait for Season 4.

42. Harry Ballz - May 31, 2007

All these grades being given, A, B+, D…sheesh! Feels like grade school all over again! Let’s hope Trek XI is A+++

43. CmdrR - May 31, 2007

42 – I’ll give them extra credit if Rosario Dawson as Uhura has a shower scene.

44. Anthony Pascale - May 31, 2007

Lord Enzo….well some ex Voyager people have made it as well. Bryan Fuller (who did leave the show) has had a very successful career including Heroes and has a new show he created on ABC called Pushing Daisies. Kenneth Biller woked on Smallville for a while and then on some other non genre shows. Piller created Dead Zone and Wildfire as well.

But in general I would agree that the DS9 folks moved on to better things

by the way Hans Beimler from DS9 created The Dresden Files (along with Wolfe). Wolfe also worked on Andromeda (not sure you can brag on that though, but it was work) Echevarria also created and is EP of Medium, and there are some more DS9 alum on BSG as well.

45. norm - May 31, 2007

Finally it come out that DS9 is not Trek, & thats why I hated it!

46. Anthony Pascale - May 31, 2007

like it or not, but all 5 series are ‘star trek’

So I have added a poll asking for people’s favorite ‘post Gene Roddenberry’ Star Trek show

47. Kev - May 31, 2007

DS9 was well done, although I think it strayed from being Trek with the war and section 31 But I think B5 tackled many of DS9’s issues with more complexity. Especially political complexity. That said, DS9 did some great shows on how the UFP would respond to terrorism – the freedom/safety tradeoff- before that was a red meat issue. I never understood the Dominon War; was it about territory? That seemed very dated, and I never believed the Cardassians and the drug addled Jem h’dar could give Starfleet and the Klingons any trouble. And the finale must be the Generations for some Sisko fans. I enjoyed the show. Morn was great.

48. Oceanhopper - May 31, 2007

TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT in that order of preference.

Almost every TOS feels like a classic to me.
TNG also has a very high batting average.
DS9, a lot of greats – but much of year 2 was dull dull dull. Middle years fantastic, slight drop in its last season.
VOY – year 1 very hit and miss. Year 2 even more so. Year 3 ghastly, Year 4 & 5 found an identity, year 6 lost its way – year 7 went off the rails.
ENT – struggled thru year 1. Year 2 dreadful. Year 3 at least trying, but only with year 4 did it reach a reasonable level of sustained quality.

49. Oceanhopper - May 31, 2007

Oh, and just to comment on the *characters* (who are key to enjoying a series since you are kind of inviting them into your living room for an hour)

TOS I love em all.
TNG I love em all (except “the Boy…” )

DS9 Very complex characters and the better for it. Dax was a bit dull, but the rest made up for it.

VOY – I thought Janeway was great right off the starting line. Chakotay – had some great moments, but just criminally underused.
The EMH, what can I say…Give him a series!
Tuvok – Quality. Sheer quality. Did Leonard Nimoy proud.
Neeeeeelix. Urrrkkkk!!! (Not Ethan Phillips fault tho’)
Seven of nine – Yes, you’re a nice character but stop inflating your chest every time someone else tries to get in some screentime, it’s rude.

As for the rest:
Lt Torres, Mr Paris, Ensign Kim, would any of you like a character trait? Come on now, we have plenty here in this bag, just pick one! Let’s see: what’s this one say….., “Drinking problem”, Anyone? No? Er, this one… “Gay character”, any takers? You sure? Be assured of lots of publicity… No?
Ok, what else have we got… er, “sneezing fits”. Oh come on, you need to have *something*..

Kes – Yeuuchhh!

ENT made the mistake of pairing Scott Bakula – *perfect* casting by the way – with T’Pol,the first Trek “hero” character I actually wished would get killed off!

50. Harry Ballz - May 31, 2007

#49 “Scott Bakula-*perfect* casting by the way”
Now, you see, that’s funny how we all have different opinions…I get the impression Bakula is a nice enough guy and all, but he didn’t seem right for the role of Archer. Somehow a starship captain should have more “grit”, or at least a bit of an “edge” to them. Scott Bakula comes across as the nice guy who lives next door who you could go for a round of golf and beer with; you can tell he acted his guts out on Enterprise, trying to offset, or at least compensate for, the fact he was missing that charismatic quality inherent in most effective leaders.

51. Doug L. - May 31, 2007

re 49 & 50

Have to agree with Harry, something was horribly wrong with Captain Archer. I don’t blame Scott Bakula entirely, but he’d be all wishy washy one week, then GW the next. There was no cohesion to his writing or the acting.

I am watching season 4 of Ent now though, and I must say I’m enjoying it pretty well so far

Doug L.

52. Doug L. - May 31, 2007

re: my earlier post… #28

Any comments about the DS9 finale? For what amounts to about my favorite Trek series, I found the ending to be a huge let down. Not so much cause Sisko died, but just the handling of it. Seemed forced. I haven’t seen it since it aired though, and would love to see it again to refresh my memory.

Doug L.

53. Crusade2267 - May 31, 2007

#48 I agree with you on Enterprise. Unfortunately, they lost me halfway through season 3, so I never saw Season 4 until this year.

54. CmdrR. - May 31, 2007

Doug — He’s not dead. He’s just “out there” with the prophets.

55. Doug L. - May 31, 2007

re 54… true dat… d

56. Ozy - May 31, 2007

I like DS9 ( it’s Star trek), but Voyager is my favorite star trek show.

57. Thorny - May 31, 2007

I wonder who the DS9 “recurring actress” being recruited for The 4400 is. Louise Fletcher? Salome Jens?

I’d suggest Nicole DeBoer (also in Canada for “The Dead Zone”) but she wasn’t really “recurring” but a full cast member.

58. Chris Roberts - June 1, 2007

DS9 along with the original Is the best.I say Voyager Is the worst.The Next Generation Is the Overated one.With the Exception of the finale the last 2 seasons of Enterprise are my third favorate star Trek Show.

59. Ozy - June 1, 2007

Voyager A+
Enterprise B

60. Refuge5 - June 1, 2007

DS9, next to the original is my favorite Trek. I’ve just been rewatching the series on DVD – very good stuff, and I’m only at the beginning of season 4. The best is still ahead.

Someone up top said that they think Enterprise will one day be more respected – I agree. I think the last two seasons of that show were as good as any of the modern Trek shows…


61. JP - June 3, 2007

Although I do love B5 more than DS9 (but not by much) I do think that the whole DS9 ripping off B5 is complete cobblers. I know even JMS believes it but I don’t. Do I think it’s possible that Paramount (who had been approached about doing B5) could have deliberately dent down an edict to muddy the waters by giving it a name with a number and making it a space station – absolutely. Beyond that, no. If you read “The Making of DS9″ it describes the genesis of choosing the name and the decision to make it a space station based series. Unless the whole book is a fabrication by the author, I tend to believe that the vast majority of similarities are coincidental. At one stage they considered having it as an outpost based on Bajor rather than in space. There are broad theme similarities such as the lead character having an almost divine fate, but Sisko’s story is the story of Abraham and Sheridans is the story of Jesus so if you look at the “detail” the similarities aren’t that similar. Comparing the Centauri/Narn and the Bajoran/Cardassian conficts is again generalising too much. The Cardassian occupation is much more like Nazi Germany whereas the Centauri one was more like Roman colonisation or the explansion of the British Empire trying to civilize everyone.

With regards to which is the best Trek well I feel DS9 because it’s the most “real”. I think a lot of people are attracted by the “perfect” future so favour TNG or similar and a lot are attracted to the opposing view that DS9 brings. I like that DS9 basically says, if you want the future to be perfect, if you want everything you ever dreamed of for you and your inheritors then you will have to fight for it and you may have to die for it. Which is of course the process that leads us to the Utopia in the first place war, death, and rebuilding. I like in DS9 that if something happened to a character – it stayed with them. They were changed by their experiences. If you watch the first episode of TNG and the last there is almost no change in the characters. Well Picard sits down for a game of poker… Much more was achieved in the TNG feature films in terms of growth of the characters than in 7 years of TNG.

I feel the one thing in particular which is different about TOS and DS9 is the notion that people solve problems rather than machines. In order to get the Romulans into the war its a question of how far Sisko is willing to go to get them on board rather than how good the optolithic data rod is. I get bored of watching 38 minutes of peril followed by someone going “wait, if we send a reverse tachyon pulse down into the anionic containment chamber we could force a reverse polarity shif which would break us free of the anomaly”. I mean come on! They could have come up with that 25 minutes earlier, but they just sit doing nothing until the last 5 minutes of the episode THEN do it. TNG did this a fair amount but VOY was a master of it, one example which annoys me is in Scorpion pt 1. After Harry is attacked they can’t lock onto their signatures so Torres suddenly announces that she’ll try a “skeletal lock”. When asked what it is she says she “just came up with it”. What is the point of introducing a complication only to resolve it almost instantly? Why not just beam them out normally as it makes absolutely no difference to the show except to fill 30 or 60 seconds with tech?

Add to that the far too convenient getting along of the Marquis almost from episode 3 and Voyager seemed the least “real” of all the series. I mean we’ve got a Captain who’s almost robotic in her behaviour and a ship full of people who were slaughtering Cardassians and killing Starfleet if necessary and suddenly everyone’s sharing raktajinos and playing pool? Er? At least in DS9 Kira still didn’t agree with Sisko or the way things were done until the end of the 1st year and to a lesser extend for the 2nd year. Even Worf’s clash of cultures was handled better in TNG than any aspect of VOY. VOY’s saving grace was it had some of the best two-parters and the odd really high concept very sci-fi stand alone episodes which DS9 didn’t do so much.

62. Spinxx - June 3, 2007

Ds9 was crap. Boring as bat poo and Sisco was the wimpiest, most uninspiring captain of the lot. Can you imagine Kirk, Picard or Janeway cooking for their crew? Captain Wishy Washy. Voyager was brilliant. Excellently written. TNG cannot be commented as cannot original Trek as they are the base for which DS9 and Voyager were launched from. I have watched every single episode of DS9 in sequence day after day (took a long time to get thru) and I can hardly remember any good episodes – maybe half a dozen of the whole show. Take any Voyage episode of any season and it is guranteed to be good, except for one crap one (we all know about that) and half a dozen “fillers”. If you dont like Voyager it went over your heads and you need to wean off your intellect-destroying meds and get smarter.

63. JP - June 3, 2007

Re: 62… Uh huh… Yes your “smart” and insightful critique has completely changed my mind…

64. Yevgeni Stepanov - June 3, 2007

While I recognize the feelings of some people that the world of the future should show hope, Voyager, TNG and Enterprise were just too preachy. There wasn’t just enough pragmatism.

For example, you’re trying to make a 50-70 year trip home. Supplies are a constant problem, so replicator use is rationed. But everytime you run into a ship in distress you stop and fix it?

The whole “there is no money” is dumb. All the OTHER societies use money. Meanwhile, the Federation is back to BARTER, the economy used by the most primative civilizations?

And Starfleet isn’t the military. BUT, if we are invaded by the Borg, Dominion or anyone, who is it with uniforns, guns and such? Starfleet!

Worse yet, the creators never bothered to learn the BASICS. Sorry, an ensign isn’t a senior officer. Ensign, Lt. JG, Lt. would be junior officers, Lt. Cmdr Cmdr., & Captain would be senior and then would come the Admiralty,

What is needed here is a recognition by the Federation for military vessels. These would include Marines (best choice is to recruit Klingons — they have the honor, duty, aggression already down pat). Have a flagship (which means an Admiral — a Flag Officer) is aboard, such as the old rank of Commodore. Then adventures could be shared with other vessels, from a heavy cruiser or carrier to a stealth vessel like the submarine would be in a seagoing fleet.

65. Senetor Vreenek - June 3, 2007

I am a Deep Space Nine fan. But I am a Star Trek fan first. The purpose of Star Trek is to address the human condition and by that definition, Deep Space Nine rocked it. The interactions between the characters were very intricate –this leads to the soap opera arguments (but that also leads to a number of wives embracing DS9 over pretty much any other Trek). The great relationships in Trek begin with Spock and McCoy, then they skip a generation, and then you get Quark and Odo… hands down the coolest banter between friends/rivals since the 60’s… that hasn’t been reclaimed since. I agree that Behr painted outside the lines, but the painting is still Star Trek at it’s heart.

The true joy of the series is that every crisis involved a decision to be resolved. This is a model that is very Star Trek and wasn’t embraced very often by Voyager –a lot of Voyager was (to quote Beltran): “Captain, our bullshit shields are down to bullshit percent! Harry, do we have our bullshit super weapon ready?!” “I’m this close, Commander, I need bullshit seconds!” “Okay, but hurry!” “Hurrying!” “Are we there yet?” “Wait for it!” “Harry, we need that bullshit now!’ “Okay! Fire bullshit weapon!” Weapon fires. Whew. End of episode. Next we repeat formula.

Not a lot of human decision making.

I’ve seen some words for Enterprise out here. I believe that Enterprise had a strong first season. I thought the show was very brave. We meet a Captain who has no experience, but has the Gene Roddenberry philosophy up and running… his crew will eventually catch up to him. Poetic. Very cool. Unfortunately, I feel the fanbase didn’t have the patience to watch that story unfold, so Enterprise quickly became “throw something out and see what sticks.” By the time we got to season four (one of the greatest Seasons of Star Trek in history)… Archer had been pulled in so many directions, poor Manny Coto had to try and truly define him… and he did. And the Trip T’pol romance suddenly felt earned… it started to rock. And then it was killed.

Sadly, if Berman and Braga had taken the time to analyze Trek’s rich cannon, Enterprise could have been the ship wielding Atomic weapons, real bullets, etc and Battlestar Galactica wouldn’t have seemed so incredibly realistic –that could have been a Trek banner.

And ST: TMP is the best!

66. Ozy - June 3, 2007

Battlestar Galactica is unrealistic, also.

67. Yevgeni Stepanov - June 4, 2007

ST:TMP? You mean “Star Trek: The Slow Motion Picture?” or “Where Nomad has gone before?”

Face it, nearly every time the ST crew met an alien species it had a richer culture, or was physically stronger, or mentally superior or technologically more advanced. Yet somehow, those dumb, weak, limited humans whupped their ass.

The dumbest thing was how they worked out “put the Borg to sleep” after first pointing out their weakness was their need to be a collective. They had the fact that they communicated over a carrier like a transporter frequency, yet rather than disrupt that (and thus render them unable to communicate) they did the dumb “put them to sleep, Data” thing.

TNG was over-reliant on the Holodeck, the transporter and Data to get them out of problems. And through both TNG and VOY they were always “reconfiguring” the damned “front deflector.” I guess in it’s normal state it was usless since they would always use it for something else.

68. Dennis - June 4, 2007

I have always wondered why so many people feel the need to rank this or rank that. I have seen every episode of every show. I grew up on the original, and followed all the rest. I have seen all of the movies, and found enjoyment in them all. Simply put, the worst thing that was Trek is still WAY better than anything else I have seen, save Babylon 5. B5 I simply toss into the same pile and smile. Why ask which is better, B5 or DS9? Who cares? I watched them both. I enjoyed them both. There is never a time where I will have to choose one over the other. So I won’t. I just wish they would make MORE.

IMHO: They wasted the opportunity to do Captain Sulu movies.

69. Gurney Halleck of House Atreides - June 5, 2007

There were only 2 good seasons of Voyager – season’s 4 and 5. 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 were not that great. Season 3 was okay. Seasons 1 and 2, while having cool plots, were poorly executed. Season 6 was the most horrendous of all the seasons. Season 7 was weak from start to finish. Don’t get me wrong, there are some gem episodes in Voyager.
DS9 was good starting during the first season. Unlike Voyager, DS9 got its legs mid-season 1 thanks to the popularity of TNG. Through Season 6, the show was great; season 7 got away from the war and that was a mistake. Section 31 was handled well in the series, I thought.
As for the end of DS9, I thought the series could’ve ended better. What You Leave Behind was good, but nothing like the end of TNG in All Good Things…

And then there’s Voyager’s End Game. What a pitiful mistake. Future Janeway goes back in time to fight the Borg? And then Voyager ends up home in the end? That’s ridiculous. Using the Borg transwarp conduits to get back to Earth makes sense. Not Janeway’s plot line though. I thought the inclusion of the Borg in End Game was a bad idea when I saw the episode. The Borg had been reduced to Kazon-like status because of how bad the Borg episodes were after the episode Scorpion. Meanwhile, according to Star Trek VIII and the last episode of Voyager years after Trek VIII, the Borg should be dead finally. How many times does it take to kill the Borg Queen?

70. W.C. Brooks - June 5, 2007

All I can say is: Once the producers let Avery Brooks shave his head (and gave us the ultra-cool Captain Benjamin “Hawk” Sisko) the show never looked back!

Captain Sisko, I salute you.

71. sean - June 5, 2007

#62, thank you for that. I always found the comparisons between B5 & DS9 to be very sloppy & superficial. Go deeper and you’ll see each show developed it’s own rich mythology without any help from the other.

As for anyone saying Voyager is the superior product, oy! Season 2 had some nice moments (the best of which was ditching the Kazon permanently) and seasons 3-5 managed some interesting storylines but overall the characters and execution were just weak (need I reference the appearance of ‘The Rock’???). It seemed the two-parters were where the show fared best (Year of Hell, The Killing Game, Equinox).

The thing with DS9 was, every character had their purpose. They were like a human house of cards, where the removal of one player would cause the whole thing to collapse. Everyone got a story and everyone had a chance to shine.

72. Tranchera - June 5, 2007

It’s very difficult for me to pick a favourite series. If you asked me two years ago I would have said TNG, because I’d never seen DS9, Voyager and ENT, and heard bad things about them. If you asked me half a year ago, I would have said DS9, because I just started watching it. A few months later? Voyager!

Now that I’ve had a while to absorb all that is good and bad from the series’, I’d have to say it’s a mixup between TNG, DS9 and VOY for different reasons.

TNG was some of the first Star Trek I ever watched, and has some truly classic episodes (Best of Both Worlds, Parallels, Yesterday’s Enterprise). The characters are all classic and lovable (except maybe Wesley).

I like DS9 (despite some of my family’s absolute loathing of it) because of the very real war-like environment of the last few seasons (although the whole prophets and Bajorans thing was a little stale). Their sombre and depressing stories make a nice change (The Visitor got my mum crying, and In The Pale Moonlight was a far-throw from most Star Trek episodes), and the BEST part is when Avery Brooks is angry (almost every episode) and starts moving his mouth really fast.

I like Voyager because of its humour and its wonderful use of special effects (i.e. Voyager crashing into that snowy planet in Timeless). The interpersonal episodes (Someone to Watch Over Me, for example) are lovely, and the actors are all very good.

TOS has some wonderful episodes, but I haven’t really seen most of them. The lack of interpersonal relationships and the abundance of “oh look we’re caught by an intelligent being” stories knocks it down a little, because I like a variety in my stories.

ENT, from what I’ve seen, is a lick of paint away from being every other crime drama on TV these days. It’s too American, which pains me. I’m sure if I could look past that, the bad acting and the horrible discontinuity (The NX looks like the Akira class of 200 years in the future) it’d be a wonderful show, but I can’t fathom watching things like CSI, NCIS or this.

So it’s a toss up between TNG, DS9 and VOY. Maybe because they intermix so wonderfully, yet are so different. I don’t know. I hope the next time they make a Star Trek spin-off, they don’t look for a “modern” show, and instead take their conventions from these three series instead.

73. Christopher Veach - June 7, 2007

Hello! I love Star Trek Voyager… not so much because it is good but because I WANT to love it. Almost every episode I watch I rewrite in my head just thinking of the potential that is in the premise of the show. Somehow I think Voyager needed to combine more of DS9’s “darker” atmosphere into the shiny, happy people universe of TNG or at least pick one over the other. Instead the episodes are inconsistent, shifting between being trapped in a dangerous quadrant to being god-like in an empty quadrant. Of course the episodes that they “borrowed” from TNG don’t help either. Anyway, I have to rate Voyager as my favorite even though it really isn’t the best.

74. Raphael - June 8, 2007

As I live in European country where one of national TV stations did amazing thing by airing all Star Trek shows one after another as they were made – only then it was obvious how Voyager really falls behind TOS, TNG and DS9.

The 24th century series featured different stories.

TNG had a flagship of UFP on diplomatic and exploring missions though even Enterprise D was not immune on spy games and politics.
Chain of Command, Face of the Enemy, Redemption…

DS9 was an outpost in turmoiled part of Alpha quadrant and certainly could not follow the suite of TNG. That show had such episodes like Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight and had great reccuring roles that other Trek series were unable to match.

VOY had an excellent start point but it soon dissolved. For a ship lost in unknown part of galaxy, with limited resources and no friends or allies they have acted way too PC. Not to mention the reset button – the characters and the ship in every new episode looked like they’ve just left the Earth spacedock. For example, the hull Galactica in third season looks battered all over – Voyager had fights with Kazon, Krenim, Borg, 8472 and always looked like crew went out in spacesuits and polished her regularly.
Too bad how VOY turned out because this show had a good premise. In the hands of DS9 team it would over shine others. is represented by Gorilla Nation. Please contact Gorilla Nation for ad rates, packages and general advertising information.