More Rumored ‘Star Trek’ Plot Details [UPDATED: TOS Writer Reacts] November 12, 2007
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Rumor, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackbackIESB.net are reporting to have nabbed some more plot details.
…warning possible SPOILERS below.
UPDATE: A TOS writer has responded to the latest rumors (below)
Read the full IESB.net article for their full report, but it can be summarized thusly
- (Probably TNG era) Romulans (led by ‘Nero’) use the Guardian of Forever to go back and Kill Kirk
- Older Spock goes back and enlists the help of younger Spock (before he met Kirk) to set things right
- Audience first introduced to Kirk when he is performing the Kobayashi Maru test
This is all fairly plausible and is along the lines of the original AICN plot rumors. TrekMovie.com had already confirmed that the plot involves time traveling Romulans and that the Kobayashi Maru scenario will be seen. Recently a source told TrekMovie.com that older Spock (and presumably the Romulans) are ‘post-TNG era.’ Probably the biggest new item in the above story would the inclusion of the Guardian of Forever (the sentient time portal from “City on the Edge of Forever”). One source recently told TrekMovie.com that something like the GoF was being built on the Paramount lot, but this was dismissed by another source who said that this was more likely the opening to a cave. Perhaps they both were right.
So it looks more and more like the new Star Trek will be akin to what are considered the best episodes of TOS and TNG respectively: “City on the Edge of Forever” and “Yesterday’s Enterprise.” It is worth noting that writer Roberto Orci listed “Yesterday’s Enterprise” as one of his favorite episodes and said that it (along with the Romulan-centered “Balance of Terror”) were episodes the team “referred to collectively.”
…but remember all these reports are still officially rumors.
Is the Guardian another star of ‘Star Trek’?
UPDATE: Ellison reacts
Harlan Ellison, the original writer of “City on the Edge of Forever” has not reacted well to the rumors that The Guardian will make an appearance in the new Stare Trek movie. Here is a message on his site.
THAT STAR TREK BUSINESS
Would someone go to that site, and suggest to those people there, that “City” and all its elements EXCEPT specific Star Trek characters, belong to Harlan Ellison–author of that much-lauded episode–by terms of the Separation of Rights clause of the Writers Guild’s Minimum Basic Agreement (MBA), and if Mr. Abrams–with whom I’m currently on strike–or anyone else, at Paramount or elsewhere, thinks they’re going to use MY creations–whether the City, the Guardians, Sister Edith Keeler, or any other elements CREATED BY HARLAN ELLISON…they had damned well better lose the unilateral arrogance, get in touch with me, or my agent, Marty Shapiro, and be prepared to pay for the privilege of mining the lode I own.
Thank you, and thank Peter David, who just called to alert me, as have you, Mark, to yet another gimmegimme grab by Paramount and the Star trek francchise that makes billions, but withholds recognition or recompense to the artists who labored in that vein.
Yr. Pal, Harlan
Of course Ellison is famous for his feud with Roddenberry over COTEOF, but Paramount and Trek aren’t the only ones to feel the sting of Harlan, as this recent clip shows: [warning…Ellison uses many ‘colorful metaphors’]
Comments»
Wow.
Love the GOF being back. With today’s effects as well.
Nice. But I got the impression that the movie will cover several periods in Kirk’s and Spock’s lives. Will the Romulans be jumping in and out of the guardian? And why would a story about trying to kill Kirk have Spock’s parents. And if we the first time we see Kirk he is taking the Kobiashi Maru test, then how come they casted a 24 year old as Kirk’s dad?
does not sound “oh so original” but not bad either. hope they pull it sweetly.
Hmm… perhaps the second unit filming in Iceland will be for background plates for the Guardian of Forever planet:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Guardian_of_Forever%2C_2269.jpg
Where is the unknown, boldly go, science stuff?
Now they’re usurping the Guardian of Forever. Shudder…
I don’t believe anything until I see it…
This would be excactly the plot all fans expect, I still think that we will all be surprised…
Given that the adult Spock has no recollection of meeting his post TNG self, I would think that this represents the “reboot”. The trouser leg of time will result in an “Ultimate” universe opening up, allowing Abrams to make canon changes in sequels.
I reckon.
So, given that post-TNG Spock has no recollection of meeting himself like this, I guess this is how the movie will re-boot as well as stick with canon. Abrams open up the trouser leg of time and an “ultimate” Trek universe will be born, allowing Abrams tomake changes in canon should he wish.
Also, in 15 years when the franchise needs another shot in the arm, he can begin to re-cast Jean-Luc and chums.
Sorry for the double post. I thought I lost the first one.
Once again, I am sick and tired of time travel. I f I never saw any time travel stories ever again, that would make my day. Too Too much of it. Especially in Enterprise. However, I know that JJ abrams has associated his name only with great projects thus far. Let us hope that this story is either really good, or that the detail given are false, something for us to latch onto while they work on the real story behind the scenes
PS. Not first, but closer then I usually get
re Matt #8,9,10, [tisk tisk]
Who said Spock has no recollection of meeting his former self?!?!
Do you know everything in his awsome Vulcan mind?!?!??
…and what of it?
I think this is a fantastic!
JJ, just give us a solid, exciting, GOOD Trek and I’ll be happy the torch… {or Phaser} was passed on to you!
this might be why shat has not been formally cast…
if he were, that might suggest to some that he will be saved and return to life at the end… back to the future style
theyre keeping his involvement a secret - without everyone thinking he is in the movie - then HE IS! big surprise at the end!
if its true, i’ve just ruined it
Ha! I predicted in an earlier post that IF they opened the movie with us seeing a young Kirk (centre seat) in the middle of a space battle, and it turned out to be the Kobayashi Maru test, then they have run out of ideas!
Hmmmm, I’ll forgive them as long as they don’t OPEN the film that way!!
lose any TNG reference. Loses credibility (for lack of a better phrase) to me. I could tolerate a nod or two, but nothing intricate to the plot.
Why would TNG Romulans want to kill Kirk? In fact, why would the Romulans want to kill Kirk at all? I think he only dealt with them 3 times in the original series (balance of terror, the deadly years, and the Enterprise Incident.) He never even dealt with them in the movies. It’s always been the Klingons that had beef with Kirk. Why the Romulans? They never had beef with Kirk.
And are they going to try to kill Kirk at birth or kill him at a really young age? Maybe just kill his one of his parents before they even meet each other?
No, that would be TOO EASY.
They’re probably going to a time when he’s older and in the academy (or out of it) to go for the kill. And if they do that, that would be really dumb on their part.
This plotting has more holes than the guardian itself. But hey, maybe I am wrong. I really hope I’m wrong though and they have a VERY logical explanation for everything.
If the Guardian in the City at the Edge of Forever is part of the story I wonder how they will explain it to the general audience that hasn’t seen the TOS episode.
Also, if all know about the Guardian, why is everyone waiting until now to use it? I think there would have been many other (maybe better) occassions to use it to go back in time to change the timeline…
And old Spock talking with young Spock about his friendship with Kirk?
“Hey, you will meet this great guy, who will become your best friend!” Seems cheesy.
Then I at least hope that he says this, too to show how deep their friendship really is: “And by the way, he will bring you back to life, but you won’t do the same for him!” ;)
One of the Peter David novels - Imzadi I believe - stated tht the Gauradin was kept in a secure scientific enclosure. Not to be used, only to be studied. It’s possible Abrams will havea similar thing, with the Romulans breaking in.
Argh, not time travel!! Although I think Abrams & co though are too smart to leak anything as important as this - something smells fishy.
I wonder if Bart LaRue is still alive to do the voice of the Guardinan. “Many such journeys are possible…let me be your gateway.”
There is another thing. If Spock really meets his young self and introduces himself as being old Spock from the future, then young Spock knows that he doesn’t die in Star Trek 2. His question to Kirk in Star Trek 3, why he did it would be pointless.
#21. Not really. Just because knows something’s going to happen doesn’t mean he understands why it’s going to happen.
I knew it would be the Guardian. For some reason, I just kew it. The only way time travel can still be cool and SFy in Star Trek. Thank god no more spacial anomalies and warp-10-gimmicks… I think this is going te right way.
True #23, I have always been against time travel but instantly the Guardian gives me a happy.
What if Nero or the TNG Romulans were connected to Future Guy? Nice way to tie in ENT. Maybe Future Guy gave up on Archer’s time period & decided to try Kirk’s time period. Dunno. Just a thought been rolling around in my head for a while. If the whole Future Guy thing was resolved in ENT, I don’t remember - plot got so thick during the Xindi war season & I don’t remember all details.
There’s been a lot of time travel & it can get old, especially when you’re looking for exploration & seeking new life, etc. But First Contact was successful & it had time travel so there’s hope.
Time Travel… whatever happened to ‘To boldly go where no one has gone before?’
Speaking if time travel…All the producers have to do is have Spock hold his hand up to young Kirks head at some point and say “remember”. It could take two seconds thats all. One world could bring the old Kirk/Shatner back when Spock returns to the future. If that mind meld Spock preformed on Dr. McCoy held all of his spirit and knowledge in TWOK, then it certainly could work as a dire warning for a young Kirk as well. Just my thoughts but I think a pretty simple but effective method for Shatners return….
re 16
Lets start with it may be too soon to latch on to this idea as fact, but either way I have faith in Abrams strenghts of storytelling and characterization.
What I find really interesting is that in the last movie the TNG era Romulans (Remans) were out to Kill Picard,… Now they’re out to kill Kirk?!?
I think it’s a bit repetetive.
Doug L.
if this is true the movie will be freaken sweet,
#21 as I said a couple of days ago, if the Old Spock tells the Young Spock that he’s his cousin Selek, who helped him when he was a child.. there’s no problem. In fact, tying in ‘Yesteryear’ would be the aces.
So they want to kill young Kirk after Old Kirk is dead? Interesting.
I don’t really like TT, but if it can work. Sounds like Nimoy will have a more active role than some expected too. Will he tell Young Spock that he is Old Spock I wonder?
I wonder if it will allow a “Jim” moment at the very end? I am betting it will.
#16 “They never had beef with Kirk.”
I think they had Fruit Salad with him ;)
Old Spock could mindmeld with Young Spock to get him up to speed and/or convince him of the truth about his identity. Then either one of the Spocks could mindmeld with Kirk.
Guardian of Forever? Cool!
I always imagined that the Guardian of Forever would be the most simple argument to time travel.
It s easy to explain the no trekkers. It is misterious, nobody know what it is, who built it, what its porpuse…
Imagine, a Guardian of Forever in CG.
Nothing machine building or sobrenatural and impossible phenomenons (Nexus,wormhole, travel around the sun etc.)
Some people think that it would be a Stargate SG-1 in Star Trek.
Obviously this is why Harlin Ellison is upset with Paramount. He was said to be furious.If the guardian in the Movie is a locked down science facility then that would explain the actors scene in 24th century costumes with white lab research clothes. It would also explain the casting calls for people with marching experience because they would need military protection hence the photographs of guys with shorthair and mlitary boots with TNG style turtlenecks under the raincoats.
Question: Why does young Spock join star fleet instead of attending the Vulcan Science Academy?
Possible answer: Because old Spock assigns him the mission of guarding Kirk, etc. Perhaps this explains why Sarek disapproves, since young Spock must keep his motivation secret.
Thoughts?
This is extremely disappointing. After learning about the casting choices and the obvious affection and respect that the filmakers possess for Star Trek, this brings all my hope and optimism crashing to the earth.
Time travel has totally been done to death in ST films and in all the series’. We’ve seen every possible angle on “fixing” the mistakes of the past, snickering over old hairstyles and uniforms, and miserably failing to explain how time paradoxes are resolved. The Romulans and Klingons have also been done to death. Heck, one of the worst disasters in Star Trek history (Nemesis) involved the Romulans as adversaries. Not only that, but by the post-TNG, post-Dominion, and post-Nemisis era; the Romulans are firmly on the road towards lapdogs of the Federation, just as the Klingons have become. It’s totally non-credible (and worse, BORING) that they would, yet-again, be the major adversaries.
Is this the best they can do? They have an entire universe to work with - let’s have some new ideas and villians!
My opinions based on these tidbits:
1: The Romulans are not going to try to kill Kirk based on personal reasons ( like Shinzon in Nemesis ) Kirk will be seen as a pivotal figure on the development of the Federation, turning it into what it becomes in the TNG time period. That’s why they’ll go after him. I think this Nero character will be a rouge Romulan, who is against any peace treaty with the Federation, which is something Spock was working towards when he was on TNG.
2: The Gaurdian of Forever I think will be like the Area 51 of the Federation; something they don’t really understand and have kept under lock and key since discovering it due to the implications it could have in the Galaxy. Rumors will persist through the quadrant of it’s existence, and the Romulans will discover it to be true. Spock of course knows all about it due to his involvment with it when it was discovered.
I think since the movie will likely begin in the post Nemesis era, it would be nice to see at least one Federation ship during this time frame. The writers have said there will be hints of TNG and even DS9 in this movie…it would be interesting if we see a ship ( the Titan?) with crew members populated from TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Of course I’d love a cameo from Picard and the Enterprise-E, but that’s a long shot.
The only part of this concept that would save the movie for me is if the past were “corrected”, but not rebooted exactly to match the established canon. This would allow the “current” (i.e. post-VOY) timeline to have subtle but important changes - LIKE A LIVING KIRK! It’s a good way to erase stupid mistakes that certain past ST has done, with killing Kirk in STVII being the worst.
#37
“Rouge” Romulans????
Hmmmmmm….. I think that it would be going too far to have gay Romulans, transvestite Romulans, or communist Romulans :)
Perhaps you meant “Rogue” ?
Time travel….did not see that coming in Star Trek.
*sigh*
Wait - how about a reboot of Omega Glory - then we can all stand up after the film ends and give a stirring rendition of the Pledge of Allegiance?
I didn’t read this article.
I don’t want the party spoiled.
I’m not reading the comments either.
La la la…..I don’t see nothing.
I wonder if Orci revealed a bit too much when he singled out “Balance of Terror” as a “touch point” for the creative team behind the movie. Could Nero be the son of the Romulan Commander from the aforementioned episode? Might he blame Kirk for the death of his father (ala Khan blaming Kirk for the death of his wife?)
Maybe Nero is furious that he can’t kill Kirk in his present (since he’s dead post “Generations”) so he finds out about the Guardian and invades the planet with his rouge team of mercenaries. Spock may be there studying the Guardian with other scientists… and he gets caught up in the action.
43 - I think you’re right that Spock must be on the planet at the time the Romulans utilize the Guardian… I seem to recall that in TOS everything not on the surface of the planet changed (ship vanished, etc) as soon as McCoy went through.
Why’s he there? Scientific study, or maybe watching the Guardian display the past for sentimental reasons.
#39
Heh… I misspelled “rogue” the same as EricAD. Well at least I used it in conjunction with the word “mercenaries.” ;)
16. The Wild Man of Borneo - I agree…Kirk didn’t really upset them … if anything it’s Captain Sisco they would want to get rif of.
As much as I love all the speculation I’m still worried about the Romulans being the pivital characters. They featured in the “noted” worst ST Movie last time ‘Nemisis” Why go there again? A rouge Romulan called NERO … didn’t we have a rouge Romulan called Schinzon in Nemisis?
I like the prospect of the Guardian of Forever coming back into it…never been done again since “City”. Always hoped Next Gen would go there.
Let’s hope the Romulans are a plot devise and nothing more to get us back into the past….I just can’t wait to see how this crew all comes together.
I would like to use the Guardian of Forever to go back in time and lock away those who came up with the idea of doing this project.
#44
It would be a cool nod to “Yesteryear” if Spock asks the Guardian to view the events from that animated episode. The other Vulcan scientists might scoff as his emotional request — a perfect opportunity to instruct the general audience as to Spock’s mixed half-human, half-Vulcan ancestry.
Maybe that’s the Winona scene. ;)
44and43 I heard that a Temporal Transporter was built on the set awhile back. Spock could use that on Romulus to contact young Spock.
Oy.
I hope they don’t go in this direction. Romulans, if you want to render the Federation a complete mess, why not go back and SAVE Edith Keeler instead? I really don’t like these narrowly tailored time-travel stories. Kill Kirk, win the war against Earth? That sounds a little too cartoonish to me.
Well, I’ll just have to take Nimoy at his word that this is a great story…
#50
A missed opportunity. Elizabeth Hurley as Edith Keeler!
#50 how would they even know about Keeler. That was a isolated event unless they did research on Kirks logs. Also if Germans ended up ruling the world then I wouldn’t want to tangle with them in the 23rd century
#50
I missed opportunity. Elizabeth Hurley as Edith Keeler!
#52 I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek.
The point being the Romulans could go back to any countless number of points in human history and obliterate humanity to the point where the will never be a Federation. Killing James Kirk is overly simplistic storytelling in my opinion. And way too convenient as well. If you were Nero, why not go back and kill Kirk’s parents as children? Or grandparents? Sure, it would make a less interesting movie, but as far as Nero is concerned, it would a a whole lot easier than facing Kirk head-on.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not ragging on a movie I haven’t seen yet. All I am doing is discussing this rumored plot point. Time Travel to kill a young Kirk seems kind of silly and unimaginative on the surface. As #26 said above, what ever happened to “where no man has gone before?”
#56
“Is this the best they can do? They have an entire universe to work with - let’s have some new ideas and villians!”
Yeah cause Insurrection was SO GOOD.
#52
But if Nero has a personal grudge against Kirk that goes way back (#43), then it would make sense to kill the man before his actions lead to the death of his father.
Just a thought, anyway.
Sorry, I meant #54 — to Adam.
Well, so much for the final frontier. Abrams is boldly going where every ST series has been before. This plot could have been the premise of that fanboy writing contest held earlier this year.
This is not what the original ST was supposed to be about, and I suspect it was this kind of story that led Roddenberry to prohibit time travel stories when he first launched TNG.
I hate to say it, because I was initially jazzed about going back to TOS, but more and more I find myself agreeing with Stanky - let’s call the whole thing off.
VERY EXCITED! GREAT NEWS!
I love how these guys are taking all the fan fav elements (as they are fans themselves) and merging them together. I knew when it leaked about the time travel plot that the shooting exteriors in Iceland meant that the Guardian would be a part of this…
This is great news!
It has to be an accident. If Nero (what a stupid name) cannot control when he will “come out of the time-tunnel” and he has to figure out that it is before Kirk is in command of the Enterprise, it would make a bit more sense.
Wow. The Guardian of Forever, how cool! TCOTEOF… That episode gives me chills every time I watch it ,and I’ve watched it more than a dozen times. They are being smart about reaching back and riffing off of one of the standout TOS episodes… it worked for STII:TWOK (Space Seed)…
I just hope they deliver the right vibe with killer dramatic feel and kick-ass music, etc…
#40
I guess that this is the challenge for a screenwriter:
What do you do to create a story that
(a) sticks a crowbar into CBS/Paramount/whatever’s pocketbook for up to $150 million, with a high hurdle for recovering its costs after shares for talent, technical staff, distributors by the end of the second/third weekend — when theatergoers find a ‘new shiny object’: HP6, a Peter Jackson-produced “Hobbit”, or something else, to spend their $$$ watching…
(b) is interesting/exciting enough to get non-fans (including those spoiled by slam-bam CGI-enhanced alien invasions and space wars) into those “$40-$50 for a family of four for 2-hours of entertainment” theaters,
(c) isn’t Trek in name only — and is redone as something as close to what you and I like as “Starship Troopers” (the movie) was to Heinlien’s book (or, “Sum of All Fears” was to Clancy’s book), OR WORSE, and
(d) hasn’t been used as a plot device in the hundreds of hours of “Trek” productions, to date.
I’ll admit that the time travel plot trick has been used, perhaps, too many times over the course of the past 40 years of “Trek”. If this ‘leak’ is correct, or some version of it is correct, I guess that — speaking only for myself — I will still go. One, face it, I like “Trek”. And, unless it really sucks, I’ve been willing to watch just (at least twice) about every episode of each of the series — even those series where people have pissed about theme music or female captains or “Akira-prises” or “too dark, for Star Trek” (or, “too much like a trip to recovery group”). Two, “City” is one of my favorite episodes of “Trek” of ALL time (no pun). Three, of all of the time travel ‘mechanisms’: spatial rifts, ‘light-speed-breakaways’, chroniton particle accumulations, Bajoran “Orb of Time”, it is the one that always sticks out as being interesting because it is an alien device that makes an intriguing, almost deity-like, comment “I am my own beginning, my own ending”, suggesting something even more to the Guardian than meets the eye than a rock doughnut with flashing lights and a fog machine… Four, there’s a chance to give an honest stab at what Harlan (who, despite a reputation for being an angry/ nasty piece of work, has been able to pen a good line) envisioned for the Guardian’s planet in “City”: no “Greek/Roman architectural” movie set pieces scattered on the set, etc..
I’ll admit to being fearful that the challenge is almost too much. I just saw “Transformers” for the first time, last week, when it came out on DVD. I’m hope-filled that the “Trek” we love is in good (screenwriting) hands.
We’ll find out on 25 December at midnight, won’t we? I’m thinking that it may well be much more of a ‘present’ than ‘lump of coal’.
The plot as described sounds like fanboy simplistic one line what ifs devoid of any meat and potatoes of a real film’s play time. To muse on an unconfirmed rumor is unproductive at best.
as I suggested a few weeks back under the ’star trek ranks blog”….my comments are this:
I like the idea of the time travel scenario and the alternate timeline.
it’s an age old comic stunt that has worked so well for so many characters. you get to keep the old while you embrace the new. that being said, it must be done right, without some silly made up devise ( this temporal transporter thing??).
my suggestion is this - the guardian of forever (could explain Iceland, eh?!). l
let’s say the events after NEMESIS have Romulus thinking. what if? let’s say they some how stumble on the city on the edge of forever( and let’s assume it is a research facility like in TAS),disguised with a Vulcan research team, this Nero goes back in time and somehow prevents Kirk from passing the leadership in the academy and his life takes a more mollified turn (like Picard in that one Q episode).
let’s say Spock is also part of that team, but stays on the planet of forever ( rememebr, when time changes it does not affect the memories of those on the forever planet),and when they return he notices something is wrong. very wrong.he soon figures out that it has to do with kirk and his role in history, and it is now up to him and his past self to make sure Kirk achieves his place in history .
i can only conclude that spock has to cycle thru the time stream to find the exact era where the “change occured, hence the period that includes Kirks parenst, ans an earlier acadamy appearance that included young spock and his parents. ( both of these must have had nero’s stamp on it and that is what led spock there).
he finally realizes that those mis steps must have been failed attempts by nero and that in fact it is later in kirks acadamy days that the change occurs..and it has to do with the one occurance that had the most dramitic effect on his career path..the kobiashi maru and carol marcus.
somehow they prevent hom from passing the test and achieving a command career path, and his relashonship with marcus keeps him in a more seditary career field/.this is where the kobiashi maru scenario comes in. since the romulans prevented him from passing before, it caused kirk to take a lesser path thru history. now with the technical brilliance of the spocks and with the help of a bright eyed junior cadet named Chekov they reprogram the test to make kirk WIN!) and receives his assignment and is stationed on the USS Farragut.
Let’s say with Nero’s plan now crushed, he sets out to Kill Kirk by commandeering the ENTERPRISE under the command of Christopher pike. he then takes on the Farragut in combat in a hopes of destroying the ship along with Kirk onboard.
Let’s say that Kirk, the Spocks and a few junior officers (Sulu,Uhura) somehow board the Enterprise, team with Scotty to help Pike retrieve command and somehow stop Nero .
Let’s say kirk is injured and back at Starfleet meets up with a feisty country doctor who gives him a tongue lashing or two, but Kirk takes a liking to him.
let’s say Chris pike stops by and has a few kind words to say to the young Kirk, and that he will be keeping an eye on his career.
…. movie ends with spock stepping back thru the guardian, all seems to now be righted through the timeline. all except one thing. JAMES T KIRK now did not die on veridian 6. he is very much alive and is standing waiting for spock as hesteps back thru the guardian.
hand outstreached to meet is freind, he smiles and says.
” the needs of the many, my friend?”…and we fade to the past,sliding to a shot of a little older, a little wiser James T Kirk , (flanked by Spock,Mccoy, Sulu,Uhura,Scotty, and a young Ensign Chekov) shaking the hand of pike as the torch of command is passed.
ans as the screens fads top an exterior shot of the enterprise and then to black…
we here in the words of William shatner….SPACE, the final frontier, these are the voyages of the starship enterprise. it’s 5 year mision,to explore strange new worlds. seek out new life and new civilizations. to boldly go where no man has gone before.
and as to the questions of how was the guardian kept secret ands how does spock communicate with himself?
well YESTERYEAR explains both of those items:
1.the guardian is a top secret research facility manned by the vulcans(because of their logical/non emotion ties to research..they will not try to corrupt the timelines they research).
2. spock will again be his ‘cousin” or something like that when he approaches his younger self.
and as fro shatners flat out denials as to being in the movie… well he has to, beacuse his small cameo IS THE MONEY SHOT OF THE WHOLE FILM.
PERIOD!!
lwr
#63
Unproductive, yes. But fun as well! :)
If there is any hint of truth in these rumors I will be one happy camper! It will be amazing to see the Gaurdian again. I wonder if the same actor who voiced it in TOS is still alive. If so, I hope they grab him to do the voice. And I also hope the Romulans’ “Frankenstein” foreheads and Spock wigs disappear and we go back to the original sister race fo the Vulcans that look LIKE Vulcans, as seen in TOS and STar Trek 6.
About Kirk:
Kirk was the one, who…
… destroyed the Prototype Warbird with cloaking system
… has stolen the cloaking system
… saved earth several times (V’Ger, Whales)
… earned the absolute loyalty of Spock
… brought Spock back from death (ST3).
… more and more
He would surely be a focus for frustrations, and a focus one in well informed about through his outstanding life.
But perhaps it’s not really about “Kill Kirk because of all this” - that would be all to transparent and easy. Perhaps it is more about: “Kill Kirk to get rid of Spock or to break him” - why?
–> we saw in ENT a hidden romulan connection to Vulcan
–> Spock had an interesting connection with this Romulan Commander
–> they captured this Romulan Commander then (where has she gone?)
–> Spock was the one who later worked in underground on Romulus, who in combination with Data destroyed the plans of a Vulcan Invasion (as silly as they were)
–> it is totally unknown, what happend to Spock after “Unification” and especially in the period of Nemesis
–> if there would be a chance for Spock to unite Romulans and Vulcans it would really be after Nemesis, when the council fell victim to this attack in the Senat
Who, by the way, is this NERO??????
Since I write german fanfiction and also have read a lot fanfiction where some plots are very near these simple sentences …
… there really is a vast of possibilities and I’m sure we will all not know before we haven’t seen this movie.
If I would be Mr. Abrams, I would beginn this movie with a running Vulcan Boy in Yesteryear and end this film with an older Spock who takes the liberty after his task is done, to save Kirk in Generations and take him in is own time … *and so on* …
*just my thoughts*
#65
I think that a number of movies, including those now considered to be among the ‘classics’ (sci-fi, or not), could — if their plots were similarly reduced down to a few sentences — sound pretty silly and unserious.
“Okay. So instead of the evil robot killing people, this Kubrick film has a computer that goes nuts and kills the crew of the ship that it controls.”
“Okay. She loves this scalawag, but can’t admit it to herself.” “So what if it has the burning of Atlanta shown?”
The Guardian! Yes!!!
I’m very excited by this news. If this is why they’re going to Iceland… then wow.
OH MY GOD IM THINK IN LOVE WITH ORCI AND KURTZMAN!!!
as amazing as this movie is going to be the new voyages guardian episode is my fav alternate timeline/ time travel trek episode ever!!!
just for the shot with the FULL SIZED SHUTTLECRAFT PARKED IN A GARAGE!!!
ooh i feel quite faint now i mu
OH MY GOD IM THINK IN LOVE WITH ORCI AND KURTZMAN!!!
as amazing as this movie is going to be the new voyages guardian episode is my fav alternate timeline/ time travel trek episode ever!!!
just for the shot with the FULL SIZED SHUTTLECRAFT PARKED IN A GARAGE!!!
ooh i feel quite faint now i mu
seems fairly formulaic to me. However, as its Spock, Kirk and the other TOS characters I may just be able to live with it. We’ll see. Only slightly disinterested today!
You people realize that with the involvement of Captain Pike that this movie is nothing more than a illusion created by the Talosians.
I like it. The Guardian of Forever is such a cool construct. Please no Nexus crap. I’d rather see Spock use a star slingshot rather than revisiting that.
#34,
harlan ellisons always pissed about something!!
the white coats look more reminicent of the medical crew from star treks 1 and 2 to me, i just cant see them changing the post nemesis uniforms to look pre motion picture, but YOU NEVER KNOW
carol marcus is going to leave him because he has to be THE GREATEST starship captain ever or trillions will die, and she doesnt want to deal with those implications!
so she takes david and develops the most destructive force in the star trek movie universe!!!!!
If this is true the door is blown wide open for Shatner to appear as Kirk.
Time travel? What a great idea. I was hoping Star Trek would do a time travel story one of these days.
Disappointing if this is really true (the plot). I’d hoped they would go for something fresher than rehashing old ideas.
These are just thoughts, not a rant, but I am a little disappointed. It seems most of the Trek movies have been either time travel stories or revenge stories or both. This certainly seems to fit that mold. If I never saw another Trek time travel story (as others above have said) it wouldn’t be too soon. You’d think in a universe where this was possible, every man-jack with a warp-drive would be going back in time messing with stuff. If this movie takes the opportunity to have the Guardian outlaw time travel of any and all means forever, then I’d be one happy Trekster. :-)
That said, I do wish the production team well. But please, along with all the cool familiar characters and tired plot tropes, give us something bold and beefy we never knew we always wanted to see in a Trek film. Please?
Scott B. out.
Using the Guardian means imho that you can time-travel at will. So, why hasn’t Spock gone back in time to save Kirk before? Why hasn’t everything that has gone “wrong” like the millions of dead people caused by the Dominion-War, the Borg-War etc. simply been fixed by going through the Guardian?
Time-travel should be something that cannot be used at leisure.
rehash? fresh ideas?
what are you people talking about.
this is the absolute best thing anyone could hope for.
this is a ploy used by comic book writers for years,with huge success.
take the construst of ” continuity” build a plot around it, toss in a universe altering event,then have the resolution causing it to be tweaked just enough that the result is the same…just a little different.
think about it.
1. we get all new voyages without “losing the old”
2.maybe one of the romulans accidently left something behind during one of their failed visit attempts. this new piece of technology causes the tehcnology of the pre TOS era to be advanced by 50 years or so( this is probably the contruction scene we see during spocks acadamy days)
, and that casued frederation technology to change just a enough that the technology we now see in this movie version of the TOS era can be explained and we can logically ( for sci fi, anyway) have…walla, new style enterprise and bridge set and all
not to drastic, but just enough to justify a change in decor.
3.and at the movies end we get a slighlty tweaked universe that opens the door for a whole new universe without comprimising the old!
it is the only way to go without pissing of everyone in town!!
4.end kirk at the end will do justice for that crappy death in generations…because it was not fun.
and,this is not to even mention that FINALLY we are going to get the first fullblown cinematic adventure that is of motion picture quailty ( not just a tv movie on the big screen) since TMP and STIV.
it will be truly epic!
lwr
Spock already used GoF to visit his younger self in TAS — the only TAS episode considered canon — written by the great D.C. Fontana.
I guess Orci and Kurtzman didn’t watch TAS cause that’s the only way they could pass this (rumored) plot device as an original idea.
I don’t know if I like the idea or not. It feels interesting and weird at the same time.
Oh, and why the heck would TNG Romulans be interested in killing off Kirk after their post Shinzon crappy lives? First, they create a Picard clone that they forget to kill when they abandon plans for him, then they decide to time travel to kill Kirk? Seems like the Romulans are obsessively jealous of Enterprise Captains.
I hope I am the first to ask if old Spock will have a sports almanac with him for young Spock.
I like it.
#85
Just as long as one of the actors isn’t going to play (a) his usual character, (b) his character’s teenaged son, AND (c) his character’s teenaged DAUGHTER in the same film, please.
Or, run the starship into a freighter carrying a sh_pload of horse manure from a colony world.
The above plot ideas are problematic for two simple reason:
It assumes that the audience will know and care about the importance of Kirk *as a character* before we are even introduced to him in the film.
Yes, we fans know Kirk and would fear for his life, BUT that fact does not change the fact that as a contained storyline it would be sloppy writing.
Tne TNG movies committed this sin. The writers assumed that becasue we knew and loved Data and Picard, etc, that we would continue to no matter what–therefore they didnt bother writing these characters in new and interesting ways. They assuemd that becasue we love Data we would weep for his death whether his sacrifice made any sense or not.
Why would a member of the general audience become engaged in a plot that begins with a death threat to a character they havent met yet?
Secondly, the general audience will not buy whatever reason the movie throws at them for why the Romulans will want to assassinate a person who is already dead. Im not sure Trek fans will buy it. When did Krik do wrong by the Romulan Empire? What will killing him accomplish for them?
Like with NEMESIS, the villian will commit to a complex rube goldberg plot, while his reasons and motivations are murkey and unreasonable.
If these rumors are true, this is very bad news.
86 - I’d pay money to see Shatner as his own teenaged daughter.
@88 - Even general audience members know Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Your concern is unfounded.
I just have one thing to say… WHY?!?!
I was really hoping for an original idea so people years from now can review other movies and say, “Oh, they did that in Trek 11!” We have not had an original idea in years and that’s why the franchise is in trouble. Throwing $150 mil at it and having your plot be about previous plots is horrible. I’m fine with the whole TOS idea… but with something new.
So lets see- they’re ripping concepts from FC, NV, and fkg NEM??!
JJ, time travel???? In a Trek movie, this is now the KISS OF DEATH.
Take heed to all above…and me.
The plot makes no sense.
Why wouldn’t Spock go back into time to Nero’s birth and just shoot the baby.
End of Romulan threat.
End of movie.
If this is the big idea for the film, it’s going to suck donkey balls.
I can still hope for a good movie. I really can’t say I’m looking forward to the Spock and Zpock show. I think the image of old Spock talking to young Spock is silly. Why? Because it (so far) lacks something that we as an audience can relate to. IF old Spock shows up in young Spock’s life, shouldn’t he be a mentor, rather than a plot device trying to save Kirk, who young Spock doesn’t even know yet. Shouldn’t old Spock say to Zpock, “Mellow out, logic is only the beginning, get laid more, hey that blonde Leila’s stacked!” Not, “Logic dictates you must save Kirk.” zzzzz.
I really, really, really was hoping this was a more intimate story about the beginnings of the Kirk-Spock relationship. Small scale stakes, on a level we can all relate to. Friendship is a better theme that galactic peril.
My 2 quatloos.
Oh, and WSB Atlanta needs lose its FCC ticket. They truly bite when it comes to floating TOS-R.
if this plot is true, then my faith in this movie just ended as all hopes for star trek’ having a future.
This plot really resembles more a bad fan fiction story than anything else. I am sad by saying this, but unfortunately I foresee that after xmas 2008, Nemesis will no longer be considered the worst ST film ever made.
With the news that the movie may include Spocks childhood and a young Amanda and Sarek as well as the Guardian of Forever and a time-travelling Spock, is it possible they will incorporate plot-elements from “Yesteryear” (animated series) ? - Spock travels back in time to his childhood through the time portal…
Maybe in the post-TNG period, Spocks resistence/reunification movement has taken power on Romulus and Spock has become the new Praetor… and perhaps that is why Nero travels back in time to eliminate Spock from the timeline and thus stop the reunification movement from taking off.
As we all know it was Spocks arrival on Romulus in “Reunification” that really gave the underground movement organisation/leadership and got it moving…
It would be more plausible than the Romulans traveling back in time to kill Kirk. Why would they do that !?
Kirk is dead in post-TNG period and thus not a threat to them, and he never did anything to seriously screw with the Romulans. What would make the Romulans suddenly decide to go back in time to assasinate him ? what good would it do them ?
Let’s give JJ a chance to get it right. We will care for Kirk before the threat as we will see his parents and Carol. Also, Nero could come back and shoot Kirk’s mom, or something, but then revenge will not taste so sweet.
And hopefully old Spock will whisper to young Spock to be on the Enterprise-B in Generations, and when he returns to the 25th Century, Krusty Kirk will be waiting for him with Antonia. Sniff.
Time travel time travel time travel. Is this all the trek writers can come up with? I’m with # 11 here. It’s been used WAY too much, and is silly anyway. Sure, many of the episodes and movies were good, but can’t they write anything great without resorting to this tired premise? Why not just go back to prehistoric times and destroy the earth. Poof! no more Federation. It is a poor plot device. Of course being a long time Trek fan (I was a kid when TOS debuted) I will go see it, but I hope they can do better than time travel again.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more time travel!!! Please this must be the last time. I understand that it is prob a neccesary plot devise this time out and if it get’s Leonard in (and hopefully Bill) then I’m all for it especially if it’s the Guardian (very cool!!!)
But this has got to be the last time, It’s been done to death!!!
trekkies and trekkers bitch way to much.
For pete sake, wait until the movie comes out before you tear down the film. Take a Maylox! Even better take a chill pill!
Hopefully this is just a rumor. I’m sick of time travel in Star Trek. I might be able to forgive it if the Guardian is involved, but only barely.
#81 I would imagine it would be forbidden to go back in time by Starfleet. Perhaps Spock being a scientist was there studying the Guardian with some scientists when the Romulans got wind of it. Perhaps, Nero was the grandson of the commander who died in “Balance of Terror”
@98 Why the disdain for time travel? If it was ever needed by the franchise this is the episode.
List your favourite episodes from any ST series. How many of them have a time travel element to it?
If it’s to be a ‘time-travel’ scenario after all ( as has seemed likely for a good while now! ), then AT LEAST we are to get the mysterious construct of the ‘Guardian of Forever’ from a great TOS episode.
I only hope it is not overly ‘reimagined’, but retains it’s basic ‘organic-looking’ misshape…albiet perhaps being a little bigger…
What I’d REALLY like to see is WHO built it coming to scold the races who abuse it…
I’m cool with all these theories, but I’m interested to know how bringing in TNG era will be accessable to a new audience. Don’t misunderstand me I LOVE all trek, but how is JJ and crew going to explain who Spock is, who the Romulans are, explain the GoF, and that the TNG era is vastly different era than the orignal??
Certainly the incident shown in “Balance Of Terror” could be seen as a major turning point in the Earth/Romulan competition. As Mark Lenard’s character reflected in that episode, a successful test of their cloak and plasma weapon would have emboldened their government to launch a war against Earth and its allies. Kirk prevented this, and some Romulans a century later might well view that as a pivotal opportunity lost.
Why do they have to use time travel….time travel stories are what turns my non-trek fan friends off to Star Trek.
we shouldnt judge the story just yet .
all we have are RUMORED bits and pieces .
nothing is either complete or confirmed.
Just rumors.
I hope that we won’t be dipping into the “time travel” bin again.
According to TVguide.com and JJ, Jennifer Morrison is NOT Grace Lee Whitney.
Hahaha I should say Yeoman Rand, actually
Maybe those 2 cretins from Temporal Investigations will come and arrest everyone.
Hey, How does old Spock know about Nero heading back? Maybe Spock and Nero are brothers because BOT Romulan Commander and Sarek both looked somehow exactly the same! Maybe the guy behind Romulan Commander is Stonn. Because he somehow looks exactly the same! And after their miraculous escape, Stonn uses his ‘powerful friends’ to get Spock’s girl on Vulcan, and then Spock kills Kirk, and Kirk recovers, Stonn gets slutty T’Pring with dishonor, and says “To hell with all these guys,” and goes back to Romulus to plot with Nero. And then Ambassador Spock does all the stuff from “Unification,” Nero gets angry he didn’t get a mind meld from dad, and he and Stonn get into their ship just before Sybok arrives for a party, and head to get Kirk, without whom none of this would have happened.
I’ve been up straight for 24 hours. Sorry about that.
Oh fudge…Rumors I hope indeed!
#89
NOOOOO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O! Where’s the brain wash?!
#97
Could make this a great start to new characters. Of course, that would make it a potential ‘chick flick’.
Oh. Wait a second… That’d be the ‘dark side of Trek” for some….most….
LOL
Rumor:
Someone over at Trektoday claims that he has inside information (posted a week or two ago) that Shatner as Kirk shows up in the 24th century alive and well.
Spock knows his presence means that the timeline has been destroyed.
Spock is then left with the decision to save Kirk or to allow Kirk to die but save the timeline. It is similar to the “City on the Edge of Forever” storlyline with Spock playing the Kirk role.
Makes ya wonder if this guy really does know something?
Jennifer Morrison is Dr. Carol Marcus…
Hey, remember how great that time -travel movie “The Final Countdown” was?
Neither does anyone else.
I love the Guardian of Forever idea to connect the time periods (much more believable than that stupid Nexus), and I have never had any problem with the Romulans. However, I think the general public still thinks the only aliens humans ever run into are Klingons. And given the disaster of Nemesis, more Romulans surprise me. However, that movie deals with Remans mostly.
I am in the boat with people who feel that yet another time line saving time travel movie, and yet another Romulan scheme to destroy the Federation might be well over done. However, since I enjoy both kinds of stories, I won’t protest. On the other hand, I still prefer the kind of abstract Star Trek done in ST:TMP over the political stuff. In the end though, this kind of story is probably the most relevant way of getting old Spock into the fold.
Having said all that, this story presents the absolutely perfect way of bringing back Shatner for the end of the film (if he were to agree).
“If this is the big idea for the film, it’s going to suck donkey balls.”
First of all, we don’t know if it *is* the plot and even if it IS the premise for it, maybe it’ll be a good film once the other 99% of the details are filled in.
GEEZ-us, some of you guys are such friggin’ buzz-kills.
#116
interesting.
#116 — That would actually be a really, really cool way to work Shatner into the storyline, although I have some doubts about the veracity of the rumor.
I still say Spock should locate and destroy the nexus while he’s in the past… it could coincidentally be floating buy and BLAM! Destroy it. No Nexus= No Kirk’s Death on Enterprise B=No Soran=No change to TNG timeline… No Generations!
If this is true then I suppose it makes sense as to why Kirk won’t be in the movie. But I agree with those in the comments that have mentioned time travel in Star Trek. I guess I can see the appeal as some of Trek’s most popular movies used time travel (ST IV and First Contact) but we all know that if anyone on the original crew sees a Romulan in this time period, then it’s going to cause the continuity crowd to go insane because of that little problem of no one seeing a Romulan before Balance of Terror. Personally I won’t care, but I know that there are those that do passionately.
My 2 cents. I can’t believe that so many of you are down on a time travel story!!!! There is nothing wrong with being “time-travelled to death” as long as it is done the right way. “City on the Edge of Forever” and “Yesterday’s Enterprise” were two ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC stories, because there were no gmmicks in the plot — it involved painful decisions as well all know and human sacrifice. Even the casual Star Trek fan would acknowledge that. I challenge anyone out there do deny those facts. For me the more I read and hear about the plot, it is only getting more and more excited!!!!! Speaking of which, since well all how VERY LOYAL Spock was to Pike, could this ALSO mean that old Spock warns Pike about his horrifying accident???? LOVE Elizabeth Hurley as Edith Keeler — Angelina Jolie as #1??????????????
#33
Guardian of Forever IS the original “Stargate”.
cue up the Back to the Future music please.
#25 - there is NO good way to integrate ENT.
Time travel, again? Why? I am sick of time travel in Star Trek.
If it has to have time travel, using the GoF would be the least bad way to do it, at least no generating chronotons and crap like that. But still time travel has been way overdone. And doesn’t this still sound a lot like that bad Gene Roddenberry idea of having Spock go back in time and kill JFK?
Just to add on something else:
I am surprised that so many people are surprised by the inclusion of time travel here - I thought it was pretty clear that it would involve time travel since they decided to cast Nimoy to the film. Then again, I suppose some may have thought that the movie would have been nothing more than Kirk and Spock kicking back on Kirk’s patio after retirement reminiscing about the old days.
“Do you recall that time when the Romulans attempted to kill you after your Kobyashi Maru test?”
“Yes I do Spock. Good times.”
Maybe the “guardian of forever” has something to do with the iconians…!?
#128:”#25 - there is NO good way to integrate ENT.”
Sure, it’s easy. “Enterprise” is as consistent with TOS as one episode of TOS is with another episode of TOS. :)
I will go to see any trek film, no matter what the early slack is…any Trek on the big screen is just fine with me!
#94 - I second the comments on local TV station WSB.
We now have no showing of TOS-R at all, at anytime slot that I can see. It is now “The Dead Zone”. Write a complaint…I did…
BTW: See all of you at a local cinema for Tuesday’s nights TOS on the big screen show!!!
#34
I believe your assesment to be accurate. We know the Federation would never leave such an artifact (GOF) unprotected. But if those extras were TNG defense personel, where does Jennifer Morrison, AKA young Carol Marcus fit into all of this?
Seculation, Speculation, Speculation. Hmm, but what if…?
-82: “3.and at the movies end we get a slighlty tweaked universe that opens the door for a whole new universe without comprimising the old!
it is the only way to go without pissing of everyone in town!!”
Actually, no. The logical way to go is to just take the Trekverse and tell a solid story in it, without falling into the trap of assuming your audience already knows what you’re talking about.
Alternate continuities? Thanks, but no thanks.
(’Course, note that these plot rumors don’t actually say anything about alternate continuities, just time travel, which has certainly been done plenty of times before in Trek.)
Does this mean, the star trek spin-offs had never happened at the end of the movie?
Nothing ever happened at the end of the movie! No TOS missions as we know them, no V’Ger, no Khan, Spock never dies, the whales are never brought to earth, “God” is not found, there is no peace between Klingons and the Federation, Kirk never falls off the bridge, no TNG-missions, no Deep Space 9, no Voyager, no Borg time-travelling to earth, no Ba’ku, no Shinzon, no Nero travelling back in time… wait… if he never existed or went back in time, how does he end up there anyway? I get it! He never time-travelled to the past! The events in the new movie never happen! But then, if all else happens, Nero must travel into the past… ;)
#96
- Kirk is dead in post-TNG period and thus not a threat to them, and he never did anything to seriously screw with the Romulans. What would make the Romulans suddenly decide to go back in time to assasinate him ? what good would it do them ? -
Maybe, this film will tell you another story and, thus, give you the answers…
All things considered, I’m very much in favour of time travel. It has always been a vital part of SciFi in general and ST in particular. There’s no repetitive factor in using time travel as a storytelling device - you have countless possibilities to use your imagination and show the audience different directions into which a tale may unfold. However, if they should use the GoF, they should respect it as it was allegorized in City on the Edge; IMO the most outstanding and most poignant episode of all.
This sounds very much like a sequel to COTF with Spock now making the choice to kill Kirk. What do they have against Kirk? Killing him once and now reversing the whole ST universe to do it again? It went over so well before. With all due respect to Mr. Greenwood, who said the script was great, and who also said he knew little about ST, he probably never saw COTF. That ’s what this is. If the choice is Spock’s now it’s just the same story. And Spock must fail because the new crew takes over. That said, it’s just a movie. What was the line; “Never take anything seriously that happens where they sell Jujubees (sic) in the lobby.” Sigh.
Actually, this seems like an interesting way to introduce Star Trek.
Since this is a Spock-centered story, the time travel is a story device that lets the audience see the Star Trek original series in context of the bigger picture.
It is also a great opportunity to expose an audience to Spock with some depth, and show something as to WHY he’s such a great character.
This seems to be partially an Origin story, and perhaps there’s also an element of nostalgia to this.
Seeing hot it all began, and showing what it was like, so to speak.
Also, Nimoy’s role in this could be to pass the torch of the original crew to the new actors, and continue the story.
The older Spock might impart some advice to the younger spock that expresses the importance of the Enterprise, and Captain Kirk, and the friendships forged, and to history.
If done right, this could be really good.
Ive said this before in another thread but I’ll say it again.
Kirk = Pivotal to earth’s survival….
Without Kirk:
a) Earth Would have been destroyed by VGer
b) Earth Would have been a dead world devoid of power by the humpback whale probe
Without earth the Federation is defeated and significanty crippled. The Romulan Empire is free to expand, and no chance of Reunification and Peace.
It’s not simplistic. Kirk’s death has a significant knock on effect for earth. No Kirk; no earth.
It’s also the perfect doorway for Shatner, if Spock passes younger Kirk a message and we see him at the end of the movie. It wouldn’t be a cameo, it would be Shatner’s most significant appearance as Kirk ever.
Also, older Spock can erase younger Spock’s memory with a mind meld after its all over to protect the timeline.
The ONLY way to have a fresh spin on the franchise w/o sending us geeks into utter rebellion for any violations to the accepted timeline is to set up some sort of time-travel thing. Abrams pretty much has to do something like this.
Unless he just says “ahhh screw it” and reboots w/o any plot devices to smooth the blow.
In other words, this whole time travel business in Trek XI is a pretext to change the Trek universe w/o pissing away the previous shows and movies.
Expect Trek XII to be a whole new ball game- no time line to keep, no continuity to preserve, no worries about Trekkies living in their mother’s basement boycotting because something in movies XII and following contradict some episode from season 2.
So stop your complaining- Abrams is trying to create a new and better Trek universe while preserving all forms of Trek past as an alternative timeline. He’s throwing you a bone to sooth your “fanboi” mania even while he reboots a moribund franchise that has become irrelevant to all but the most hard-core fan.
Or better yet, accept that it is just a freakin’ show and stop being so unbelievably “Comic Book Guy” about the whole thing.
Spock finding younger Spock plot point from TAS.
#94, #132
WSB airs it at 4:00 a.m. on *Saturday* mornings. It was there this past weekend and on my DVD, albeit they’re a week behind on their episode descriptions.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Sounds nice but still i think Shatner will be in Trek XI after all :)
i “predicted” that the GoF will be used… it’s in a comment on this site.
maybe the rest of my vision will also be correct? it was about the uss titan (riker) bringing spock to the GoF in the beginning and the enterprise-E (picard) saving spock/kirk/both in the end.
The Guardian of Forever?! SW33T!!!
Spock met his younger self already via the guardian tho. In the only TAS ep that’s canon. Spock DID remember the meeting when he was older as well. I wonder if Older Spock will go by the name of Selek when meeting his younger self?
“Cousin Selek! I haven’t seen you since I was 7 and out in the desert and my pet bear died…and…”
So this is kinda a sequel to “Guardian of Forever” and “Yesteryear”…2 of my fave eps!
The Guardian of Forever?! SW33T!!!
Spock met his younger self already via the guardian tho. In the only TAS ep that’s canon. Spock DID remember the meeting when he was older as well. I wonder if Older Spock will go by the name of Selek when meeting his younger self?
“Cousin Selek! I haven’t seen you since I was 7 and out in the desert and my pet bear died…and…”
So this is kinda a sequel to “City On the Edge of Forever” and “Yesteryear”…2 of my fave eps!
I must say if this is true that I hope they don’t use the Frankenstein foreheads for the Romulans. I enjoyed the stories just fine with the ‘Vulcan cousin type’ Romulans, without all the goofy make-up confusing the original relationship with the Vulcans and Romulans.
Keep them simple and vulcannoid like they did originally.
#140
I like your approach!
I vote for Romulans and Klingons with BUMPY heads!
I know that this is kind of off topic, but if you are out there Roberto, it is pretty much common knowledge at this point that you are a fan of the ST novels, and that you have stated that you will try to canonize certain details from the novels in this film (Kirk’s father being named George Samuel Kirk Sr, for example). Because this film will most likely feature a post-TNG Spock, is it possible that there may be a very brief reference to Saavik being Spock’s wife, or, possibly, a cameo by Robin Curtis (NOT Kirstie Alley)? (Spock being married is canon; Jean-Luc stated in “Sarek” that he was @ the wedding. As far as canon is concerned, who Spock’s wife was was never revealed.)
I thought the wedding was Sarek’s to Perrin???
If Saavik were to show up it damned well better be Kirstie Alley and not “pseudo-Saavik” Curtis.
Vulcans aren’t fat Dennis Bailey (except for those wild and crazy Vulcans on one ep of Enterprise). Damn, I’m a dork
I gotta say, even though I wasn’t crazy about this time travelling Romulan idea at first, knowing the Guardian is involved actually makes it a LOT easier to swallow. It makes the whole idea seem a lot less contrived– because let’s face it, with a device like that out there, you would expect the bad guys to take advantage of it EVENTUALLY, wouldn’t you?
As far as using Romulans, have you people suddenly forgot how freakin COOL these villains were in TOS, TNG, and DS9? I can’t believe all the people dismissing the Romulans solely on the basis of Nemesis. The reason that movie sucked wasn’t because of them, it was because of everything ELSE in the movie!
I doubt audiences are going to be turned off from this new movie simply because of time travel and the Romulans. Once they get a look at all the other bold things Abrams is doing, and see all these different actors and the huge new FX, they’ll be MORE than curious to see it.
It’s illogical to get fat… ;-)
I agree David J, Romulans are my favorite villians they had all the best episodes in TNG and DS9 and Enterprise for that matter.
139
Wow, a Trek fan who’s actually looking at this in a positive, optimistic way. What a novel idea!
If shatner is not in this im going to kill myself.
im not joking.
#143 - Thank you for the info…I did not know. I had tracked the time through ST.com…
Still not a “watchable” timeslot (I DVR instead)
so its a sequel (to Nemesis) then a prequel (going back to the time of TOS) and ultimatly a possible reboot..(of TOS onwards)…
As AP says its taking the best ep of TOS (COTEOF) and TNG (Yes Ent) as a springboard…
COTEOF is frequently cited as the best Trek story ever..(out of all series and movies) and the GoF has never been seen since then (only in that animated episode which was great too)
And so what if its timetravel again? Timetravel has always been a big part of startrek and its only been used twice out of ten movies (or 3 if you count Generations as having used it) and those 2 films were the most popular and successful of the series (TVH was the biggest box office hit for TOS movies and FC was for TNG)….and every time it was used in TOS or TNG they were among the best eps - COTEOF, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Assignment Earth, Yes Ent, All Good Things etc - even Ent had some great Timetravel eps - Twilight and those Mirror Universe ones (which were sorta time travel) and DS9 did the great Tribbles one..(where its timetraveling Klingons who want to kill Kirk)….even non timetravel eps like Patterns of Force, Omega Glory and Bread & Circus’ were among the best eps and they were almost timetravel in their settings…
Besides is timetravel that much of a strech for a film series set in the 23rd/24th century with spaceships travelling about at faster than light speeds ?….When mankind eventually does go all startrek and ventures out into space and sets up a starfleet etc whos to say that when the first ship goes the speed of light it wont end up back or foward in time?…Theory of Relativity and all…
I don’t see why everyone assumes that there will be an alternate timeline after the events of STXI. I mean - where’s the problem if there isn’t? Old Spock probably dies, or maybe returns or whatever. (Young) Spock may be the only one remembering what happened (I don’t think it would mess up anything if he knew that he was still alive in the 24th century). So what? XII could just continue from that point. There’s plenty of room for new stories set within the established TOS timeframe.
Or, to put it in other words: Why reintroduce all the TOS characters and the setting and the care for continuity and Trek canon if you’re going to mess it up anyway? You can have that a lot easier. My bet is on “no reset at all”.
And this includes Kirk. By the end of the movie, he’ll still be dead. Or else it gets complicated. You wont see Spock going to Veridian and undo things, you don’t tie up loose ends of other movies or episodes if you don’t have to. That’d just be bad - and contrieved - writing. On a 120-page-script to ressurect the franchise, you certainly have better things to do than that.
The only things missing will be a DeLorean and a blue police call box…
#119, you’re absolutely right that Nemesis was far more about the Remans than the Romulans, but I believe that Nemesis is the only movie or episode where the Romulans want to destroy the Federation in an out and out way. For all those who think the Romulans trying to destroy the Federation is just another rehash of an old Trek plot, remember, we’re talking about the Romulans here. They’re subtle and conniving and in most of the episodes and movies they have merely tried to undermine the Federation, not destroy it. Even in Nemesis when the Romulans realized Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth, they got coldfeet and tried to help stop Shinzon.
Honestly, I’m quite optimistic about this film, even though I’m a bit leery of the possible murder of James Kirk by timetraveling Romulans and even more leery about the possible creation of a new Trek universe. However, getting to see Captain Pike and the Guardian of Forever again has me really psyched.
Another thing, in “Yesteryear”, it isn’t explained with certainty what caused the timeline to change which necesitated Spock to go back and save himself. Yes, it was conjectured that somehow Kirk, Spock, and the team of historians somehow caused the change, but it’s quite possible they didn’t. What if somehow these timetravelling Romulans caused the change, maybe just as an aftereffect of them going back in time in the first place?
Re: 141. Jack the Seasnable Trekkie
Despite your post making me feel like Jon Lovitz looked like he felt after Shatner asked him if he’d ever kissed a girl, I could get on board with something like you propose.
Besides cleaning the continuity slate, it helps clear the way for sequels. After all, if this story takes place about the time Kirk takes command of the Enterprise, where (when) are sequels going to happen? Before events of WNMHGB? Amongst First Season episodes? Messy.
Better to create a new continuity that doesn’t have anything to do with our collective cherished memories. That’d be fine with me — lazy ol’ time travel (*sigh*) notwithstanding.
Scott B. out.
#164 — And along those lines, I think one of the (many) major problems with Nemesis was the fact that the Remans were not at all developed, either prior to the movie or during it. We don’t even know whether they’re related to the Romulans/Vulcans, whether they’re an alien race that the Romulans subjugated, a group of Romulans genetically engineered for hard labor…etc. It’s actually a little shocking to me that this alien race would get a 2-hour feature film devoted to them, yet we know so very little about them. And while the writers had the opportunity to flush out the characterization of the Remans by drawing on the history and culture of a group we DO know — the Romulans — they really didn’t take it.
This should not be a problem with the Romulans, whom we already know quite well.
Harlan’s not taking this well at all…
#139 Yes, I agree. Fully.
#159 Please don’t commit suicide over the lack of ‘The Shat’ in the movie. Really, when you think of it, the loss of even 1 Shat fan could strain the balance of the very fabric of the universe. Keep this in mind - a new, even sexier Kirk is on the way. If Smokin’ Aces is any indication, we’re in for a wickedly wonderfully Kirk.
As for Harlen - I am sure the script was vetted with legal before it went into production. Seriously, they could not possibly have wanted to create more publicity by pissing off Harlen. You won’t like him when he’s angry.
Sybok was fat.
If Kirk is alive when/if Spock returns to the 25th century, then many events resulting from his death on V3, his absence from the timeline from that day, will not come to pass due to his continued alive-ness post Generations. A no-no, if I am not mistaken, especially as JTK will definitely shake things up, probably getting McCoy, Scotty and Spock back on some damn ship to go do stuff.
Amazing that some can take a few, unconfirmed hints about what this film might be about and think they now know enough to judge its worthiness as a Trek project. Human brains are notorious for their ability to extrapolate and fill in details where none actually exist, but for anyone not in the know to pass judgement on the film at this stage is akin to Perceival Lowell’s drawings of the canals on Mars, or seeing Jesus’ portrait in a piece of toast. You’re reaching, folks.
Nothing I’ve read about the supposed plot of this film particularly excites me, but the freshness of the talent involved does. Prior to its release, descriptions for the storyline of “The Wrath of Khan” sounded pretty ludicrious. What mattered in the end was not the details of the story per se, but how those details were handled on film. Even if the bare bones of the plot don’t appeal, I think there’s a decent chance that the naysayers in 2008 will be pleasantly surprised. Or not–the point is, we’ll know soon enough. Why write the film off now?
Man, Harlan is pissed. I don’t blame him. Did he get any dosh for “Yesteryear?”
Well, unless Harlan is doing the studio’s bidding (unlikely) and keeping this rumor’s truth under wraps by denying it - then I would say this latest rumor is a dead-end.
Then again, maybe Paramount interprets things a bit differently and is willing to fight Harlan on the use of his creations from the most popular ST TOS episode of all time.
The portal has been referenced many time in novelizations and The Animated Series correct? Did Harlan have to grant rights everytime it was used or is he simply entitled to residuals? If only residuals - then Paramount can use it anyway they want, but need only credit him and write him a check. Right?
The premise is iffy, but if it is written well, with believable characters, and acted well, without campiness, then this movie will bring in the numbers. I predict this will bring in a ton of people who enjoy scifi because it will have the budget, the fresh faces, and easily relatable premise average joes can understand. Every time one of these movies is announced the Trekkies come out with the “whatever happened to boldy going”- yeah, that got cancelled because it was boring. People want to see other people with emotions doing things they can understand and relate to, not a bunch of spandex wearing professors musing about radiation and soil samples.
I thought he didn’t care about Star Trek anymore? I guess where there’s money involved…
I’m all for property rights and what not, but I think this might be taking things a bit overboard…did the writer of Balance of Terror get recompense every time a Romulan was mentioned, or cloaking technology was seen? For that matter, I would be surprised if the writer of “The Naked Time” got compensated for “The Naked Now.”
I guess it’s a fine line. With “Trouble with Tribbles”/”Trials and Tribbleations,” I can definitely see where monetary compensation might be in order, but on some of the more concept-related things…I don’t know, I just think it’s an overreaction.
173
To be fair, very RARELY did we see the Enterprise crew simply exploring space or “boldly going” somewhere new.
Most of the time they were on routine patrol or responding to distress calls or mediating some dispute somewhere. And frankly for a big budget movie, I wouldn’t EXPECT to see the crew charting space anamolies or conducting scientific missions. There’s not much conflict in those types of stories unfortunately.
I’m a little confused with Ellison’s statements about ownership rights. Maybe someone here with a little more knowledge of the studio workings could clue me in a bit.
Ellison wrote a script and the Star Trek production offices bought said script. Since they paid for the rights to produce an episode of television from his work don’t they own the material developed from that teleplay? Do they not have ownership rights to the characters and settings portrayed in that episode? Ellison is stomping his feet about his due as the creator of a single episode but what about Paramount’s rights as the owner of that very same material and ultimately the franchise itself?
Thanks.
K-M
As I said before, all this is about respect in the first place. I just have that many doubts regarding ST XI because I fear that they might not respect the original, the established ST lore. Ellison seems to take the same line and just escalated my apprehension.
#168
Is there a time when Harlen ISN’T… when he’s awake, anyway?
The Guadian is a time portal. Harlan Ellison didn’t invent the concept. Does the family of ship designer Matt Jefferies get a dollar every time the Enterprise appears on screen? Does the family of Bill Theiss’ get a Federation credit when his uniform designs are used? Were there royalities when Khan was brought back?? Did the producers of Trek IV pay for the concept of using the slingshot effect? Seems analagous to public domain to me. Writers introduce establshed concepts that are used throughout a series run without further compensation. Ellison is as greedy as Paramount.
If this isn’t another red herring, Harlan might just shut the whole damn thing down until Paramount bows, scrapes, and fawns all over His Mightiness for a few weeks, and hands him a bucket of money, to boot. I can’t believe that Paramount would move forward with this concept without fully vetting it with the legal department, tho. It sounds like there may be some hair-splitting over creative property rights. This could get ugly, ‘cuz Unca Harlan that likes to gouge you in the eyes with his thumbs if you tangle bungholes with him.
Funny how he states how he wants them to send him a free copy of the DVD, but, he “doesn’t take a p_ss without getting paid.”
Could anyone explain, what will change for Romulans principle in TNG-era or post-TNG if Kirk will be killed?
Harlan Ellison… Harlan Ellison? Has he written anything for years?
Wow, that’s ridiculous! I’m not all up-to-date on the Hollywood Copyright info, but doesnt COTEOF belong to Paramount?
That would be like Paul Schneider, who wrote Balance of Terror, saying, “Oh, you guys cant use the Romulans in Star Trek anymore, because I created them in that one episode!” (I’m assuming that Mr. Schneider created the Romulans for the episode)
Ellison has been bitching about “City” since the day it aired. He is not in a position to shut anything down. Paramount could be nice and throw him a bone by listing him in the credits as a contributor, but it won’t pay him much. They don’t owe him anything either way.
I still hope that they don’t resort to time travel. Let’s see something fresh.
I agree with Dennis Baily. Kirk not only in BOT scewed up the Roms plans for conquest, but stealing a prototype cloaking device was a major event that the Roms could never recover from in terms of lack of surprise, etc. They lost more in terms of military surprise with these two incidents than any pish posh battles with the Klingons anyday. They would be very pissed at Kirk.
So maybe the movie begins in a very different universe to the one we have seen before. Perhaps the film begins in a universe completely controlled by the Romulans with no Starfleet and an enslaved human race. It makes sense that the moment the Romulans go through the portal the timeline changes - so perhaps we join Nimoys Spock in this universe after Nero has gone back. How would Spock know? Perhaps only the Vulcans can sense this shift in the timeline?
City On The Edge Of Forever is an amazing episode. It is just so dark. I love that last line from Kirk at the end as they are about to beam back up to the Enterprise and he says something like “lets get the hell out of here”….Awesome!
180:
It all depends on the contract.
If I am a chef, and create a great dish for a restaurant, and it becomes that restaurant’s signature dish, and I get fired, I assume the restaurant has the right to keep making it. Unless I was hired specifically for that dish. Then, I would have some leverage before I sign my employment contract.
It’s possible he could be bitching so much because he signed nothing which protects him. If he did, then he should go for it.
Will Harve Bennett, Nick Meyer et al come asking for handouts because of mentions of Carol Marcus and Kobayashi Maru? No. They are the property of Paramount Pictures, as most likely, I would think are the non-”sister” Edith, the GOF and the “City,” which IMHO, refers to NYC in this case.
Wouldn’t Paramount have to admit this was the story after all in this case?
Unless you guys are experts on the WGA’s agreements with the studios dating back to the 1960s (and I’m certainly not) you’ve got no standing to say what Ellison is and isn’t entitled to.
I’ll be interested to see whether he’s right or wrong about this.
#177 & #185 –
I was curious about this, so I took a look at the Separation of Right’s Clause (Section 16) of the WGA Minimum Basic Agreement. You can find it online (the 2004 version, anyway, but I doubt it’s changed too much) at http://www.wga.org/uploadedFiles/writers_resources/contracts/MBA04-Part3.pdf — the TV rights part starts on page 209. It’s actually a very interesting piece of legalese, if you’re into that kind of stuff.
Anyway, it looks like, as ridiculous as it seems, Ellison is within his rights, if not with the Guardian of Forever (as #180 points out, this was hardly a new concept), with Edith Keeler. I could see things getting nasty about whether TGoF counts, though. In any case, I doubt we’re going to see Miss Edith unless paramount wants to pay some heavy dough, though, because the rights of writers’ compensation for their original supporting TV characters in motion picture sequels (specific, I know) is very carefully delineated in the contract.
As to #178 re: respect — while I understand your apprehension about the movie respecting the original (one of the biggest fears with prequels…) I wouldn’t let Harlan’s gimmick contribute to them…if you recall, he was pretty pissed off about how CoTEoF itself turned out, and I honestly doubt he’d be happy with the movie unless he wrote, directed, produced, and edited it himself.
#180
I think that the question is answered in this particular tirade of his. It’s “just because the rest of the writers are stupid, doesn’t mean that I don’t deserve those pieces of silver.”
Paramount, the writers and Bad Robot have lots of lawyers and experts on all this stuff. Does anyone really think they would not look into any issues related to previous IP when making a mega budget franchise movie?
I’m not surprised at Ellison’s reaction and I admit I AM surprised Paramount would open this can of worms–irrespective of TAS episodes like “Mudd’s Passion” and “Yesteryear,” which I believe were done well before writers’ rights regarding merchandise etc. were ironed out, this explains why we haven’t seen a lot of direct sequels and returns of characters from individual TOS episodes because there is a question of who owns the rights to what–take Larry Niven’s “The Slaver Weapon”–adapted from one of his stories with the Trek characters inserted into it. You can’t even reference the Kzin or the Slavers in a Trek story because of Niven’s rights (I know; I tried).
The answers are not always obvious because story details and characters may or may not have been introduced by Trek’s producers or story editors in conferences and then taken on by the writers–I don’t know whether Stephen Kandel “invented” Harry Mudd or not. But the Guardian of Forever is such a famed Trek invention and Ellison is so notoriously protective of his work it just surprises me that they would go ahead with this without consulting him.
All that having been said…what I do like about this is that it brings back the mythic, larger-than-life element that classic Trek always seemed to have but which has been missing from a lot of the later shows and movies. It’s crack for a longtime trekkie like me…but the big question is still whether Abrams & Co. can get all this backstory across to the casual viewer and make them care about it.
It depends on how the contracts were made. Normally everything used on a show belongs to the studio, but occasionally a writer will negotiate a contract that allows that writer to control certain elements of a production. As an example, the Dalek’s on Dr. Who were “owned” by Terry Nation rather than the BBC, and the BBC had to get his permission to use them in the new series.
Given that Ellison was somewhat well-known at the time of COTEF, it’s quite possible that he retained the rights to those concepts rather than Paramount as part of his contract.
180. Totally agree with you. Ellison is a complete nutjob. Yes, he did write one of the best episodes of both Trek and Outer Limits (”Demon With a Glass Hand”, not “Soldier” which was awful) but he hasn’t produced anything of note in decades. He’s squandered the past thirty plus years litigating against anyone and everyone who even speak his name out loud (watch: I’ll probably get slapped with a libel suit for typing this) sequestered away in his fortress of paranoia. He’s got a good lawyer and he’s notorious for never backing down once he’s picked a legal fight with someone so I’m certain this won’t be the last we’ve heard about this. Personally I think he’s wrong and all the stuff he did in COTEOF is part of what has become Star Trek and is not (nor was it ever) his property. He’s washed up and grubbing for more cash. This is my opinion, Harlan, and I’m entitled to it.
Ellison is cool. Somehow. But I fear that he might die of a heart-attack one day… :-)
Well, 183 and 187, the Roms handed the Feds a cloaking device for Defiant in early DS9, and that slinky angry Rom girl who was its escort disappeared PDQ.
I think they may be doing it to get at old Spock, somehow, in the 25th Century. Who knows, he may run Romulus at this point, as part of a bicameral Vulcan-Romulan govt. And someone (beside Harlan Ellison) is not so happy about it.
TNG Era? I hope that doesn’t mean Riker and Troi make an appearance ala “These are the Voyages”.
And dom’t get me wrong. As a writer, I’m completely supporting him. He’s just always so… angry. :-D
#99- “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more time travel!!! ”
What is all this fuss abuot no more time travel from so many around here?? TOS did time travel, what, THREE times? Maybe 4, if you count the ending of The Naked Time. Then the TOS movies go back in time ONCE, for the most successful Trek movie ever. Remember, we’re not counting all the crap from the Bermanverse. This is a TOS story and out of 6 movies and 79 episodes they used time travel, and used it effectively I might add, a total of FOUR times. That’s a far cry from “being done to death.”
And I see Harlan is still being Harlan.
I think Neelix has a guest appearance, with Reginald Barclay. And they’ll shut the holodeck down at the end to discuss it.
# 159
With this storyline if he is not in it, it is simply because the writers,director + producer simply never wanted him in it.
With the Guardian as the major plot device of the film there is no excuse not to have Shatner involved.
202 — Except they won’t be able to shut the holodeck down, because there will be a holodeck malfunction and the safeties will be off, and only Wesley Crusher can fix it.