AFI Feels Wrath of Khan February 12, 2008
by Charles Trotter , Filed under: Feature Films (TMP-NEM), Sci-Fi , trackback
The American Film Institute has released their nominations for its “10 Top 10,” in which they will honor what they believe to be the ten greatest films of ten different film genres. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was among the fifty science fiction films nominated. The winners will be revealed when AFI’s 10 Top 10 TV special airs on CBS this June.
This is not the first time Star Trek has been nominated by the AFI. Star Trek II was up as one of America’s most heart-pounding movies in “AFI’s 100 Years… 100 Thrills”, and both James T. Kirk and Khan Noonien Sign were nominated for the organization’s “100 Years… 100 Heroes and Villains.” In addition, Jerry Goldsmith’s score for TMP was nominated for the organization’s “100 Years… 100 Film Scores.” In the end, however, none of these made it to the final “winners” list.
Nomination process
When nominating franchise films for the new list, AFI selected only one film from each franchise. Although Star Trek II is viewed by many to be the best of the Trek films, the AFI did not always choose the most successful or popular entry from a particular franchise. For example, AFI nominated Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope even though Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back is often regarded as the best in the franchise. In perhaps the AFI’s most peculiar decision, they nominated Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (the one with Tina Turner) over the first two Mad Max films.
Khan’s chances?
Only 10 of the 50 sci-fi films nominated will make the final list, and Star Trek II has an uphill battle. Six of the films nominated – Star Wars, 2001: A Space Odyssey, E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, A Clockwork Orange, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and Frankenstein – are already listed in AFI’s 100 Years… 100 Movies (a list of the 100 greatest American movies from the last 100+ years). These films are almost guaranteed to be on the final list, which leaves only four movies to choose from. I predict those movies will be The Day the Earth Stood Still, Planet of the Apes, Back to the Future, and Blade Runner.
About the AFI
The AFI is an independent non-profit organization whose membership consists of film and television industry professionals and film lovers. They promote the recognition and celebration of the art and history of film. In 1998, to mark the 100th anniversary of American film, the organization began the “AFI’s 100 Years…” series to honor and celebrate the best of American film and the most influential elements of those films. “AFI’s 10 Top 10″ is the latest entry in this series.
Head over to AFI.com for more information and to download the full list of nominations (along with the official ballot). You will need to register to download the lists, but it is free. However, only full AFI members (i.e. people who pay for membership) can vote.
If you need to refresh yourself on Khan…here you go:
Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley on Merv in 82
Loading ...
Comments»
First!
First!
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!
THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRDDDD!!!!
#1
#2
LOL
Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan deserves the honor, plain and simple.
V.
I love these old interviews. I didn’t see much of the promotional stuff for the Star Trek II film back then, other than Starlog magazine. All three of the principals look great!
The television division put this film together (from what I read in the past). I can’t help wonder what would have been if this was put together by the motion picture group with a big picture feel and if it were the first film.
A Clockwork Orange rules! although a bit out of place with the rest I think.
I also think that STII is not a real scifi film. its a revenge story!
TMP on the other hand IS a scifi film, the enterprise trying to figure out an alien lifeform. Best scifi mystery/detective film ever!
The nomination for STII is well deserved.
Thanks for the great video – marvellous, and absolutely priceless, to see the Big Three together.
And now we know for sure that it’s “The WROTH of Khan“. :)
ROK redeemed Star Trek so much so that we still feel the reverberations to this very day. He was such a strong character who played the part with such distinction to the point that he could have easily was bigger then many of the key players. Its hard to believe that he now has to spend the majority of time bound to a wheelchair. Just like Paramount is exploring the early years of Kirk in his academy days they could step back and see what made him who he became in a film that highlights his efforts.
TWOK deserves to be in the AFI top ten list here.
Not only is it one of the greatest Star Trek films, but one of the best sci fi films ever.
It has one of the best villains in cinema
it has to be acknowledged
Wow, just think that interview is as old as I am!
TWOK is a great film and a great sci-fi film. In amidst a fun nautical revenge tale, transposed into space, you have the fascinating idea of Project Genesis.
When you look at all other Treks, human ambition as never been greater. What we see in TWOK is humans who have reached the point where they can build solar systems. It’s a shame it all went ka-blooey in TSFS!
“When nominating franchise films for the new list, AFI selected only one film from each franchise.”
Did they say this somewhere? Just looking at the first list I see Toy Story and Toy Story 2, Shrek and Shrek 2, etc… Also I’m already gaging from reading the first list.
I guess it doesn’t really matter, the AFI isn’t worth the gold in Oscars’ ass crack.
What about Forbidden Planet, Anthony? How could Back to the Future rank ahead of it? And Forbidden Planet is such an obvious precursor to Star Trek. I’d pick Brain From Planet Arous before Back to the Future!! :)
Read the Sci-fi list; shit list–not that there aren’t plenty of good films on there. AFI being so predictable you can take films like Frankenstein and Clockwork off the table, they’ll go for more traditional sci-fi films. They’ll pick movies that don’t just have sci-fi elements in them (like Star Trek II or ET), but ones that actually explore sci-fi concepts. And then they’ll throw in Star Wars. Here’s how I expect them to vote;
2001 A Space Odyssey
Alien
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Invasion of the Body Snatchers
Jurassic Park
Planet of the Apes
Star Wars
The Day the Earth Stood Still
The Matrix
War of the Worlds
Now you may be wondering why I didn’t include “20,000 Leagues Under the Sea,” well, that’s because it wasn’t even on the damned list. But don’t worry, “Cocoon” was there so don’t go thinking they overlooked anything. Blade Runner has been getting a lot of buzz since the big DVD release so I wouldn’t be surprised to see it turn up, it’s certainly more deserving than The Matrix. But they’re gonna pick Matrix…
And I agree with Jeffrey, sounds like someones a “Back to the Future” fan. :P
Gotta love those retro fashions! It’s clear the clothes weren’t out of the 70’s yet!
Did you catch the epaulets on the producer’s jacket? Or did the plaid tie confuse you?
And those terrible Shatner jokes…
Also, it’s great how Merv was obviously a fan.
http://www.khaaan.com/
#7
Whilst I agree it is a revenge film, it is also most certainly Sci-FI.
It involves genetically enhanced humans,
alien parasites that induce mind control,
and a scientific device that creates life in dead planets.
All of which are key to the plot. If those things don’t make a Sci-Fi film I don’t what else could.
Wrath of Khan is overrated, although I guess compared to other Trek films it’s a classic.
TWOK is a great Star Trek movie, but hardly a great sci-fi film. Of the Trek movies, when it comes to actual sci-fi, I’d say either ST:TMP or ST IV:TVH would be better representatives. TMP addresses lots of hard science concepts and TVH exemplified what sci-fi does so well: using a futuristic adventure story as an allegory for 20th/21st Century issue (the extinction of the humpback).
As to the best sci-fi film, I’d vote for 2001: A Space Odyssey with Forbidden Planet coming in a respectable second.
The Wrath of Khan was so popular because it was simply a more adventurous film then ST:TMP. It brought back more action, battle sequences, over the top acting ( like the TV show),more color,and the interaction of the cast was that of the old series. I remember going to Wrath of Khan on opening night and was just so happy that the movie was not as slow or dumpy as TMP.
TMP was not a bad film, just boring. Of course after Spock died, I was pissed off thinking they were not making another Trek flick or even worse, a Trek flick without Spock.
Should this be in the AFI thing? Eh..there are so many fantastic Sci-Fi films out there that it’s a hard call.
#19. Good morning, Stanky-Lite! lol
Probably will not make the list but I sure love it, especially as the story played out over the trilogy.
Yeah, ST 2 should definitely not have ranked above ST:TMP. The Wrath of Khan seems to be one of those Trek films everyone looks to when they reference Trek because things blow up in it. Then we have Trek 4…which I must say, somehow broke the mold and didn’t blow anything up. As I’ve matured though, TMP has become my favorite Trek movie. It has some weaknesses, but over all…it really shows how sophisticated Trek can be.
you said:
“only four movies to choose from. I predict those movies will be The Day the Earth Stood Still, Planet of the Apes, Back to the Future, and Blade Runner.”
I certainly feel that 3 of those four (BTTF is the ringer) are better movies than TWOK.
Why does no one ever talk about ‘Silent Running’ with Bruce Dern anymore. That’s an AMAZING film!
New Horizon… I agree with some of your points here… I also feel TMP has grown a lot on me, as I’ve matured I have a higher appreciation for it, as in the trailers, it did “challenge my intellect”. On the whole, I think TMP and TWOK were the most ambitious films in the franchise… TMP for daring to be a pure sci-fi event in the face of fan expectations and in the face of the burgeoning empire of Star Wars-style blow-em-up space romps; in the end, it produced a daring, bold examination of the human condition, which was always what Star Trek was all about. TWOK was ambitious for daring to go back to original spirit of adventure as exemplified on the TV show, and for showing the larger than life characters we had come to admire as what they were, mere mortals (like us), thus giving it a richer context (and producing the ultimate, most daring move in the history of the Trek franchise, the death of Spock).
Although I waffle on my “top ranking” list, in general (with some wiggle room), here’s how I’d rank the whole series (best to ‘least’, which is something of a misnomer here, as I generally find all of the films to have some value to me):
TWOK
TMP
TUC
FC
TSFS
TVH
GEN
INS
TFF
NEM
The ones in the middle are hardest to categorize (TSFS, TVH and GEN) as I sometimes bump them on my list. NEM is almost always on the bottom, as I have found an appreciation for TFF with the passage of time (and from reading up on what Shat was actually WANTING to do with that film versus what he was able to get delivered; the DVD release shed a lot of light into that)
Star Trek is Science Fantasy. Warp engines, transporters, time travel, bumpy headed aliens. AFI panders to popular opinions.
I loved Wrath of Khan. I even skipped a birthday party once (that I helped plan) to see it again when it first came on HBO. I however find it difficult to believe it’ll win first place.
A DISGRACE…
…that out of 100 SCORES, they couldn’t find a place for Goldsmith’s TMP soundtrack??? Just ridiculous.
i liked more IV and V …
I guess I have always considered Star Wars to be more “fantasy” than science fiction.
Although TMP is probably a better “science fiction” story, TWOK is my all-time favorite Trek film. I don’t know where it shall end up, but it is definitely at or near the top of my list…
TWOK is the superior nomination.
Having said that, this is exactly why I HATE these list shows. They’re just there to make you argue with your friends. How are you going to pick one like Khan and chuck out A Clockwork Orange, 2001, Planet of the Apes, and Blade Runner (and did Metropolis, Frankenstein, This Island Earth, The Andromeda Strain, or any other older classics make the list?) Yeah, I’ll even acknowledge Star Wars, but only IV, V, VI and III.
What AFI really needs is TWO lists: Good Sci-Fi and a compleat list of the Big Killer Snake movies that play on SciFi.
I think DeForest had a little nip o’ the Saurian Brandy in the green room when Shatner & Nimoy were on stage.
#23 Oh yes. TMP is my fav as well, especially since the Special Edition release.
TWOK came at the right time. A commercial popcorn movie that many saw as an antidote to TMP.
Now, TWOK can be looked at as “Master and Commander” in space.
Personally, I’ll take Blade Runner over all of them.
BTW, the HD Final Cut release is a MASTERPIECE!!! Probably the best restoration/HD release ever.
I’ve seen it in 70mm several times and this actually looks better.
BUY IT.
Much and all as I am afan, gotta say given the other films (Blade Runner alone!!) I really don’t see it making the top ten!!
Cmdr one movie that I think should be on the list if it is not is Quatermass and the Pit aka Five Million Years to Earth. Written By Nigel Kneale this movie is wonderfully creepy almost lovecraftian.
Star Wars While an entertaining money making movie and ultimately franchise. does not have really great writing and that is an important measure for a film being on the list or at least it should be. If you look at Star Wars objectively its not even good scifi. and its not even considered science fiction by a good many science fiction people. It id break new ground on movie and speciall effects technoloy and it did prove that sci even pseudo scif could make money. I think if you had to make a choice between Wrath of Khan or Star wars there is a stronger case to be made for Wrath of Khan.
#13 Prologic9
I meant for the sci-fi franchise movies, they picked only one movie.
#23–It has grown on me as well. I think it had the best Sci-fi story, but TWOK flows so much better and is actually more entertaining.
TMP–best sci-fi storyline in Trek film series
TWOK–best sci-fi movie in Trek film series
TVH–best “message” movie in Trek film series
I am going to be extremely biased toward Trek, mainly because I am much more of a Star Trek fan than a general Sci-fi fan. Although I like some other sci-fi, I’ll leave it to those “general sci-fi fans” to debate the rest.
arrrrr….
someone posted once that TWOK is about a group of Chippendales dancers led by an evil Mexican named Khan who decide to kill William Shatner… harrr…
My favorite film it be… and it don’t matter it if never make any lists at all
because it be a film you can watch again and again… you’ll stop the channel surfing if ya see it on tv… you’ll use the revenge is a dish best served cold line at the drop of the hat… you’ll tear up as Spock gets radioactively roasted…you live in fear of going top Fantasy Island… and you’ll always remember to raise your shields no matter how friendly an incommunicative ship looks…
action, naval battle, God and science, midlife crisis, and literature thrown in as well… ’twas the best of times…
God Bless ya, Mr. Montalbahn for a performance that still moves us today…
Now I should look and see if any Yul Brennere films were on tha list…
Back to the Future and Blade Runner are the maybes in the list; Forbidden Planet and Matrix could just as easily take the prize. In fact, now that I think about it, Forbidden Planet will likely make it in the list. Oh, well.
#15 Prologic9 — You’re probably right. :)
38 half the fun of Wrath of Khan is Ricardo Montalbons over the top villian. again more list worthy then Star Wars
Interesting that De Kelley mentioned going to New Zealand to promote TMP. :)
#18
I stand partially corected:
“It involves genetically enhanced humans”
not important to the story at all. it was more about experience than intelligence, Spock pointed out.
“alien parasites that induce mind control”
you’re right about that, but it was more to show how evil Khan was really.
“and a scientific device that creates life in dead planets”
genesis was more a symbol to the story and Kirk’s age problem :P
still, even if these points make STII a scifi movie it will never surpass TMP as scifi story, although STII was alot more fun to watch.
#14 Come on! Back to the Future is one of my favorite movies!!! I even own a DeLorean!!! It deserves to be on the top 10 IMHO (As does TWOK).
And am I the only one here that actually enjoys The Final Frontier? I think it expresses the “triad” of Kirk, Spock and McCoy very well. The only beef I have with it is the lame-o villain :) I also think it’s pretty darned hillarious.
My # 1 favorite Trek movie has to be The Undiscovered Country… the rest I can’t really place an order on except Nemesis (being my least favorite)!
My top-ten from the 50 nominees (in alphabetical order):
2001 A Space Odyssey – beyond dispute. the peak achievement in SF film
Alien – believable science and tech. intense & superior sfx, acting, story.
Close Encounters of the Third Kind – inspiring, awesome sfx
Contact – probably the best-ever hard-science treatment of an epic theme
Forbidden Planet – the 1st intelligent space adventure. startrek owes more to this film than any other
Jurassic Park – a revolution in monster/dino films and sfx in general and still based on good science
Star Wars Episode IV – rejuvenated the scifi genre. all scifi fans owe it a debt of gratitude for this reason alone
The Day The Earth Stood Still – the 1st intelligent scifi film that focused on acting and story rather than sfx
The Matrix – a revoultionary and groundbreaking scifi concept
The Wrath of Khan – the best film in a series that represents a cultural phenomenon
I think the AFI will choose:
2001
Back to the Future – a cool and exciting adventure, but not in the league of any of my choices
Blade Runner – this is an overlong, boring film that takes itself too seriously. however, it’s cool amongst intellectuals and this will be enuf to make the list
Close Encounters
E.T. – a fun adventure and a box office blockbuster. too light and silly to make my list.
Invasion of the Body Snatchers – an efficient little thriller but not in the league of my picks. however, like Bladerunner, it’s popular amongst the intellectuals who take themselves too seriously
Jurassic Park
Planet of the Apes – OK, but really just a souped-up TV show. Will make the AFI list because of the franchise/sequels it spawned
Star Wars IV
The Matrix
Star Wars is not a scifi movie! science has nothing to do with the general story. Thats why thy call it a Space Opera i believe.
but i do believe star wars made scifi popular again, for the wrong reasons though.
43 Back to the future a good film Forbidden plant far a better film therefore should rank ahead of of Back to the Future. Beside Forbidden Planet has has far better story pedigree then then Future, its loosely base on the Shakespeare’s play the Tempest.
45 Robin with a ll do respect space opera by definition falls under the heading of science fiction and Star war is more in the realm of fantasy . The problem with Star Wars is that it is poorly written sci fantasy but it does have entertainment value at least.
what about Jane Eyre? Mr. Rochester kept a woman whacked out on cordrazine upstairs… and he was clearly an earlier design of an android by Noonian Soong … even got a replacement eye at the end o’ the story… good sci-fi film with Orson Welles ta boot…
arrrr….
#45
Based on your definition, very few so-called scifi films can be called science fiction. most, including star trek, are actually fantasy because the science in them is impossible. I, for one, am willing to lighten-up on the requirement for perfect science as long as the story is logical and they break only a few scientific no-no’s for the sake of the story.
Also, it isn’t necessary for science to be the central theme of the story for it to be called scifi. Where did you get that idea? As long as the story takes place within a setting of speculative future, alternate realities, or tech; then its scifi.
#47–fantastic entertainment value…but definitely (IMO) within the category of “fantasy”–not science fiction.
#49–So then is The Lord Of The Rings sci-fi? I think that it, like Star Wars, is fantasy.
I hear what you are saying, but I think that Trek is sci-fi because the basic premises for technology in Trek (aside from transporters) are at least theoretically possible (so far in the future) to a significant portion of the scientific community. Even if (or when) it isn’t, it is easily perceived as such.
#45
speculative future, alternate realities, or tech
these are all scientific theories and technologies.
“Science” fiction?
it doesnt have to be schientific correct, but has scientific idea’s taking to the extreme and see how people react to these situations. THATS science fiction.
Star wars is more about drama, family issues. many object are based or can be easily replaced with object that excist today.
science fiction can also be a general genre. horror and fantasy fall under this main genre as sub genres.
Let us not forget Dune. It comes ahead of ST II IMHO.
51 interesting question Closettreker, since Mr Lucas borrowed from so many sources i would be surprised if Lord of the Rings did play a part in Star War’s evolution.
I seem to recall seeing a documentry or two on star trek the next generation in which they stated that they had science people advising them on whether a scientic idea in episode was plausible or not.
just a note to the canonnazi:
when asked which films he thought were apocryphal, roddenberry said “five” (final frontier) and “two” (khan). he gave the example of kirk killing chekov’s ear leach as a breach of the spirit of science exploration and trek in general, blahblah, as if TWOK was some kind of aberration to the meaning of his creation. (he wanted a sequel where the crew go back in time to kill kennedy!)
point being, TWOK was indeed the best of the series, and certainly one of the best sci-fi ever, yet was decidedly non-canon as far as the great bird was concerned.
52 Robin a scifi story has to have some level of scientific plausibility or it falls to pieces. Lets look at Light Sabers, Scientifically there is no know way to make that work now or later in the future. Lets also look at the fact that George Lucas in the movie confused Lightspeed for Hyperspace. Yes i know no sci film is perfect, for example the whole issue of Sound in outer space. Which almost every film and scifi series commits that error. Aso the the Issue of the Force which stats out Mystical and through Lucas’s Hamhandedness morphs into the whole Midaclorine nonsense in the later films .
#33
oh, and yes i agree, blade runner is the best of them all, and the final cut is just beautiful.
TMP is the best Trek ’scifi’ film period. I am suprised that TWOK is ranked higher then TMP in a scifi poll. TWOK is great action/aventure movie in space. However it actually abandon scifi concept for action because many didnt like scifi TMP. Besides, we all know the scifi plot holes in TWOK.
I believe no Star Trek film deserve to be in top 10 list. They cant complete against Star Wars, 2001: A Space Odyssey, E.T, Blade runner, Close Encounters of the Third Kind e.c.c.,
Personally i l want to see Starman(staring Jeff Bridges) on the top 10 list.
55 Star Trek The Motionless Picture barely Broke even and this whole silly story of going back in time to save kennnedy convinced the bossed at Paramount to Marginalize Roddenberry’s invlovement in the second movie. The real kicker of his Kennedy story is that they fail so save Kennedy anyway so what was the point of the time trip. Roddenberry visionary that he was was not a great writer.
#56
i completly agree with you star wars is NOT a scifi film, thast what im trying to tell here for a couple of posts.
like i said objects in star wars can easily be replaced with todays objects
example a lightsaber has the same purpose as a normal sword.
the story of Star wars is about a cliched drama but has a space/future setting. thats why it is FUN to watch.
not on the list, yet a masterpiece:
robinson caruso on mars. brilliant.
“THE CAT. IS OUT OF. THE BAG!”
Brilliant.
56 Robin you miss the point, fun to watch and entertaining does not make a film great. If you look at Star wars it has all of the plausibility of the old Flash Gordon Serials, and in terms of writing and story it ain’t a whole lot better. Lucas’s legacy will be that he pushed movie technology to a higher level not fro any contribution he made to science fiction .If anything Lucas’s success has been detrimental to real science fiction. If anything I think Star Wars has had the effect of Dumbing down science fiction for audiences.
#54–I saw that as well. Here is another one for you or anyone else.
When the second pilot episode of TOS was produced, ESP was a “hot topic” within the scientific community. Since that time, it has been “debunked” by credible science. Does that episode fall out of the category of sci-fi? IMO, it does not. I think it remains 1960’s science fiction.
Also, there are many instances where Star Trek uses a far more advanced alien species as a vehicle for depicting things far beyond science. TOS, “The Savage Curtain”, “Errand Of Mercy” and “Arena” come to mind ( off my top 20 episodes list), as well as any TNG-era episode involving “Q”.
I guess I have always seen that as still within the realm of sci-fi because we have no idea what our consciousness would evolve into, were we to exist as long as those species—and evolve ourselves as a race of beings. What scientific laws, which we now we hold true, might be put to rest if our species were to continue to evolve for the next million years?
Are those episodes outside of the realm of science fiction, or are they safe because they use far more advanced beings as a vehicle with which to depict such things?
Although some of these are not even nominated, I feel that the top 10 Best (non-Trek) Sci-fi Films of All Time are:
1. Blade Runner
2. Aliens
3. The Day the Earth Stood Still
4. 2001: A Space Odyssey
5. Serenity
6. Gattaca
7. Planet of the Apes
8. Forbidden Planet
9. Star Wars: Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back
10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Back to the Future would get a very honorable mention, as would Terminator 1 and 2 and the first Alien and Jurassic Park. I’m also quite fond of A Clockwork Orange and Terry Gilliam’s films (Brazil, Twelve Monkeys), but those are among the “bizarre” variety of sci-fi. E.T. was good but too cutesy for me. If I were to include Star Trek movies, though, at least five of them would take up the list. :-D
#58—TMP is absolutely, without a doubt, the better sci-fi story. That is not the question. TWOK is the better movie. It flows better, it is more entertaining, and ultimately–much more popular (especially among non traditional fans).
I have to dispute your putting Star Wars on any top list of sci-fi films, but as you can tell from the numerous other posts (is it/is it not sci-fi), that is apparently subjective.
#63
if star wars wasnt made, star trek (movies and spinoffs) wouldnt be here either. star wars made scifi popular even star wars was NOT a scifi film.
the movie gave REAL scifi films the oppertunity the respect it deserved.
for better or for worse.
dumbing down is not right word to use
Oh, and Metropolis would get a special Sci-Fi Classic Award :-D
yea! what the hell, where is Metropolis in the list?! the first REAL scifi film!
Thomoz (#24),
Interesting that you brought up Silent Running. It would be an interesting choice, but in my opinion the film hasn’t held up very well over the years. Bruce Dern’s performance is great, and the FX were (and still are) quite amazing. However, the message of the movie is delivered with all the subtlety of a runaway freight train and the soundtrack is unbearable as well. If it had been less heavy-handed, Silent Running might be as well-remembered as other films mentioned here.
Still, I’d rather see Hollywood remake Silent Running than The Day the Earth Stood Still. The thought of Keanu Reeves playing Klaatu makes my brain scurry back into a dark corner muttering “please don’t hurt me anymore.” Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s a fine actor, but he’s all wrong for Klaatu, who should have a regal countenance and a quiet yet unavoidable sense of intelligence. Klaatu is also quite menacing when he needs to be, and I just never got that vibe from any of Reeves’ performances.
Oops, looks like I got off track a litle bit there. Sorry about that. Oh well, free free to discuss.
Alright here is my top ten list(in no particular order)
2001 A Space Odyssey -(even thou i hated this movie as a kid. WTF is this freaking ape movie)
Alien
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Contact
Jurassic Park
The Matrix
E.T.
Star Wars IV or V
Starman
Logan’s Run
p.s i havent seen oldd scifi movies like Forbidden Planet & The Day The Earth Stood Still
Blade Runner
After thinking about it, in reference to my previous post (#65), I would probably replace Close Encounters with Clockwork Orange and move it up the list by four or five slots.
#67–Good point about Star Wars’ success inspiring the release of TMP. However, you have to remember that were it not for that, we would have had Star Trek: Phase II. As much as I love the first 4 of the original films, I never thought the movies did Trek justice quite like the weekly TV series. Who knows what Trek history would be like now if it had went in that direction? It is hard to imagine that series being unsuccessful at the time (especially if Star Wars had never been released). I think we as Trek fans missed out on that opprotunity. Of course, we will never know.
The problem that i have remakes of classic films in general is that more often then not . The remake as a habit of being of vastly inferior quality ot the original, so the question is why make it at all if you you can’t surpass waht was made before. Studios of course are addicted to remakes because they own the properties and don’t have to shell out any money. But in the long run I think its bad business for the studios and we the audience are being cheated in all of this.
67 Robin your point is taken, i dont dispute the notion that without Lucas there would be nothing in the way of scifi for us.
73 Clossetreker I am not at all sure that Star Trek Phase 2 would have worked based on what I read of the story Ideas.for those episode on of them the child was later used in season 2 of the next generation. Also the audience numbers were not quite there yet to support a trek series or any good scifi series at that time. I could be wrong on this one.
#73
thats true about phase II, completly forgat about that.
would be great alternate universe story, if we had phase II instead of TMP :P
but I think if phase II was made there wouldnt be any spinoffs we know now.
but it would be intresting to speculate.
wel anyway, im outa here, byeeeeeeee
A list is a list is a list. I mean it comes down to opinions. “Pretty Woman” is on their 100 greatest list, isn’t it? Now that ’s a good movie, but should it be on there when something like William Wyler’s Big Country isn’t? A list has to please every generation. A true great meets the test of time. I have to admit though that An Officer and a Gentleman seems to get better with age, as many movies do.
Some of you have stirred fond memories… Logan’s run and Silent running were indeed very good movies. Well deserving of being at least in the top 50. About Star Wars not being a Sci-Fi movie though, I think some of you are just splitting hairs. I nominate Moby Dick!
I hope someday we can put STXI on this list as well. Wouldn’t that be great?
#75–That we will never know. Still, it was going to be done if not for the success of Star Wars. It is difficult for me to imagine it failing, given the fandom of the rerun TOS in the 70’s, and the fact that it would have been the only Trek out there beyond syndicated TOS. Besides, who knows what great Trek stories writers like Dorothy Fontana could have contributed?
#76–I may be in the minority here, but I would rather have seen a continuation of the TOS-era like the Phase II concept than the spinoffs we have now. The TNG-era stuff never did it for me. I also thought the whole V’Ger story would have worked alot better as a television episode (I still love the film though).
eighty first! right on. all those movies deserve recognition. wok is definately up there too, but i wont complain if it doesnt make it.
#80 Closettrekker Fontana did write some great episodes in trek.I believe This side of Paradise being one of them and few for Next Gen. I till am of the belief that Phase 2 might not have ended up working because tv executive being what they are, would have demanded unrealistically big ratings numbers for the series. All those guys can see are numbers and that it with them. Vger on tv? maybe. The first film was visually incredible and hideously slow that may have been the reason film 1 was not the runaway hit Paramount had hoped for.
Whoever mentioned the exclusion of Terry Gilliam’s films is right on the money. Brazil & 12 Monkeys are two of the best films, period. ScFi or not.
83 sean How could those films not be on the list? who comes up with these damned lists and how do they make their decisions flip a coin?
Sounds good, but Star Wars will win, because the AFI people want to do the ‘popular’ thing. Frankenstein is on the list, that is not science fiction! 2001 was boring! and 2 star wars movies nominated? those and Frankenstein are science fantasy not science fiction. What is that about? Why is’nt First Contact or Undiscovered Country in the group? or Voyage Home?
#85–I’m not sure I would agree that “Frankenstein” is not science fiction (not much different from Dr. Soon and Data except for the outcome), although I agree about Star Wars being more fantasy than sci-fi. I also found 2001 to be boring–but it has its memorable moments.
I don’t think the other 3 Trek films you mentioned are even close to TWOK in overall appeal. Even more mainstream television shows like NBC’s “Seinfeld” and “Friday Night Lights” make mention of TWOK. Those other films (even TVH) do not come close to approaching that kind of popularity among even non traditional fans.
In fact, as far as sci-fi goes, it is TMP which has the best story true to the genre. Of course, that is subjective, as is the entire list–and subject to endless debate.
What a pleasure to see the Big Three on the Merv Griffin Show from 1982!
Why is it that Khan in TWOK is dressed the same as David Bowie as the Goblin King in Labrinth? They even had the same hair stylist.
#88–Same part of the 80’s, I think.
86 Closetrekker what about a film like Quatermass and the PIt should that not be on the list?
Just thought I’d add some more good sci-fi films AFI could have picked from:
Solaris (the original)
John Carpenter’s The Thing
The Invasion of the Body Snatchers (the 1979 remake with Nimoy)
V for Vendetta
Stalker (remember that one, folks? :-D)
Transformers
Dune
The Fountain
Dark City
The original Godzilla and King Kong
Logan’s Run
THX 1138
When Worlds Collide
Alien Nation
Galaxy Quest!!!
None of these movies were even nominated…
Altered States, Repo Man, and The Stepford Wives was nominated, though… wtf? o_O
I have come to the conclusion that this list sucks! :-P
omg im missing Barbarella. We all know that one, dont we folks? :P
I remember one reviewer who referred to Goldsmith’s TMP score as a “bargain-basement Star Wars ripoff.”
My, how history puts things into perspective!
They’re doing another remake of Dune, BTW.
93 I think Dune just wont work as a feature film, the David Lynch version in 1984 was a valient attempt at adapting Herberts novel. Dune is hugely complex in scope and story telling and you really cant do this one right as feature film . As a mini series with a big budget then its doable, there so much to Dune that condensing wont work.
Hey, what happened to the Bibi Besch part of the Merv interview? I was really looking forward to seeing her interview. Is there any at all of her on YouTube?
#73
…In an alternative timeline where Phase II had been made instead of movies…
It would have run for a few years then got cancelled, then about 25 years later would have been remade as a comedy with owen wilson as captain kirk, ben stiller as mr spock and will ferrell as dr mccoy!
#96 weeharry
Don’t forget Simon Pegg as Scotty and John Cho as Sulu!
Oh, wait a minute…
;)
“Why is it that Khan in TWOK is dressed the same as David Bowie as the Goblin King in Labrinth? They even had the same hair stylist.”
Actually, the question should be, “Why is it that David Bowie as the Goblin King in Labyrinth is dressed the same as Ricardo Montalban as Khan in TWOK?”
Labyrinth came out years after TWOK.
96th!!!
#98 they must have shared the same Taylor and Hairstylist
#94-
The Sci-Fi channel’s version was not bad- better than Lynch’s, but with some curious omissions. Dune needs more than 2 hrs., without question.
OMG, Shat’s “hair!!” It’s disturbing. That whole thing is so surreal!
#35–Quatermass and the Pitt scared the crap out of me as a kid. It was fantastic! Still is-great film.
Silent running is another fantastic Sci-Fi film.
#38– WESTWORLD! Yul’s in that one.
Lists are stupid–we all have similar and yet different tastes. No one list can be the absolute correct.
Someone mention Goldsmith’s score to ST-TMP–which was wonderful. Also his work in Planet of the Apes score for which I believe he won an oscar.
Star Wars is hideous, but will probably make the list. Ick. I doubt Wrath will make the top 10, but it’s a danged good movie. So much better than Star Wars.
I’ve been an avid sci-fi fan since the early 60’s, when I was turned on to the great sci-fi writers like Asimov, Heinlein, Silverberg, Clarke and so on. So, my idea of science fiction is profoundly influenced by these writers. There are certain kinds of stories I think of as sci-fi, and, as far as ST goes, TMP is a story I think of as sci-fi, despite whatever faults might be argued over. TWOK is certainly set in a sci-fi setting, but the story itself (… it’s about a starship Captain who….) is not, IMO, specifically science fiction. Don’t misinterpret me, I absolutely love this movie. But I believe the term “space opera” fits this picture more than the term “sci-fi.” To say that TWOK is a sci-fi film because it has various sci-fi notions built into its plot is could legitimize the idea that Monty Python’s “The Life Of Brian” is a sci-fi film because the main character finds himself aboard a space ship with aliens. In other words, I believe that spaceships and aliens do not necessarily constitute a science fiction story. Yes, this is debatable, but I tend to agree with those who say TWOK is a story about revenge in a sci-fi setting, as opposed to being a sci-fi story. Alright, call me nit-picky…
Meanwhile, 2001 (my favorite film, which I’ve seen at least 2001 times), does fit the term “sci-fi.” Of course, having been written by Clarke, it fulfills the ideas of sci-fi I was brought up on, and I think we all superimpose our own ideas onto the matter.
I realize there are many different points of view on this matter, so why not get a sci-fi writer in here so we can hear his/her opinion on “what makes a sci-fi story sci-fi?”
#103–While I wholeheartedly agree that TMP is the better sci-fi story, I have to dispute your assertion that TWOK is any less of a Sci-fi movie. Despite its themes of revenge, aging, and rebirth–the setting is still relevant to categorizing it as science fiction. Particle weapons, transporters, warp drive, the genesis device, genetically enhanced human beings, sleeper ships…those are clear sci-fi elements.
” I believe that spaceships and aliens do not necessarily constitute a science fiction story. ”
That is very true. Star Wars is a good example of “fantasy”, and not “sci-fi”. I’m not sure I ever liked “Space Opera” as a sub category, and I’m quite certain I wouldn’t apply that to TWOK. Star Trek has always been a rather optimistic look at OUR potential future–not a glimpse into a “fantasy world” with no ties to our own. That seperates it, IMO, from Star Wars or Lord Of The Rings.
“TMP is a story I think of as sci-fi…”
As do I, but it also carries themes which are more about the human condition–like the insatiable human quest for the meaning and purpose of one’s existence. Just as that does not preclude TMP from the category of science fiction, it is my opinion that none of the themes about the human condition which are inherent in TWOK do either.
Most films deal with “human condition” themes, whether they choose to use science fiction as a vehicle to tell the story, or the Old West, for that matter. Quite a few Old West movies carry themes like revenge. Still others are about redemption. They are still categorized as “Westerns”, right?
“Of course, having been written by Clarke, it fulfills the ideas of sci-fi I was brought up on, and I think we all superimpose our own ideas onto the matter.”
You are right about the different points of view. I’ll be the first to admit that I am more of a Star Trek fan than a general sci-fi fan, so I am curious about those “ideas” to which you refer. Can you elaborate?
1-First Contact
2-GENERATIONS
3-S.T.-4
4-S.T.-5…………….
105
1 entertaining and exciting not a perfect film but the best next gen film by far.
2 A television script masquerading as a big budget fil, god awful and again how is that humna skin can withstand contact with the nexus when metal ships cant.
3 St4 save the whale is entertain and fun but not a great film
4 Star trek 5 bad for reasons listed all over this page and beyond
This is very easy for me.
1. TWOK–even non-fans can dig it.
2.TMP–truest Trek film.
3.THV–light-hearted movie with a nice “Trek-like” message.
4.TSFS–some “canon” issues(Klingon Bird Of Prey?/ 20 year old Enterprise?), but very entertaining.
5.TUC–decent rebound.
6.FC–unquestionably the best of the TNG movies.
7.INS–big screen tv episode.
8.GEN–the subject of alot of heartburn aroundhere.
9.NEM/TFF (a clear toss up)–should be wiped from existence. Can we pretend these never happened?
The only question remaining is, where will ST XI belong?
#104 “Star Trek has always been a rather optimistic look at OUR potential future–not a glimpse into a “fantasy world” with no ties to our own. That seperates it, IMO, from Star Wars or Lord Of The Rings.”
Agree overall, but actually, LOTR does have a tenuous connection to our world. According to one of the Tolkien scholars on one of my Geek — er, Collector’s Edition DVDs of LOTR, Tolkien had imagined this whole world of Middle Earth as England’s very ancient history/mythology. This doesn’t, of course, negate any of the fantasy element you refer to.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Vulcanista a point on Tolken LOTR was base on some Scandinavian Myths and Folk tales He also drew Inspiration from William Morris George Macdonald, Evelyn Nesbit Lord Dunsany and others as Ithink one could argue that Star was was influenced a bit by LOTR . Iknow its off topic but just a point of interest
#109
And Tolkien put it all in a blender, and we got LOTR & associated mythos!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Actually you could make a somewhat similar blender arguement with regard to Trek. One film in particular that is considered a model for trek is The Forbiden Planet, then there are the Golden age scifi stories Foundation series by Asmov, The Lensmen Series by Ee Doc Smith, Space Cadet and other Novels by Heinlein. lots of others I would Image that Gene Roddenberry was quite familar with them. There elements of these stories in trek. In all scifi there is a borrowing
Example Babylon 5 The Psycop concept and Mindwiping was inspired by the great scifi novel The Demolished Man By Alfred Bester. Hell walter Koenigs Charater a Psycop was named Alfred Bester In Besters .
#111
Probably so regarding the blender argument. You gotta figure Roddenberry and some of the writers and folks associated with TOS grew up reading that stuff. It obviously rubbed off.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#91
V for Vendetta
Great movie, and incredibly romantic in a very dark way. I *love* that stuff!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
113 read the graphic novel loved it, never got aound to seeing the movie. Oh movie of interest that almost everyone has forgotten about Moontrap staring Walter Koenig and Bruce Campbell, this is movie that should have had a sequel. but the studio for some reason buried it.
104 – Closettrekker
You make good points, and I completely understand where you are coming from. I’m not 100% convinced, however, but I do get it. I’ll try to clarify my position, while admitting that perhaps I’m splitting hairs.
It is my understanding that the essence of “story” is about a character (or characters) trying to solve a problem. In a sci-fi story, that problem is of a science-fictional nature… meaning that the hero’s problem, itself, has to do with one of the various staples of sci-fi, such as aliens, robots, advanced technology, and so forth. So, in such a story, if you took the sci-fi away the hero would have no problem to solve.
In TWOK, you could, potentially, write this story without any sci-fi elements at all, and you would still have a Kirk/Kahn story (Master & Commander, perhaps?). I believe if TWOK were a TRUE sci-fi story, the whole thing would fall apart without the sci-fi elements. Now, it could be argued that in TWOK, the Genesis device is the primary sci-fi element, but it is, I believe, a “MacGuffin” — a plot device which is not essential to the ESSENCE of the story. It is a distraction, to some degree. If you took the Genesis device out of the story, you could still have a story. In a true sci-fi story, the Genesis device would be the center of the plot. The story (meaning the hero’s problem) would entirely revolve around the Genesis device. If the Genesis device is removed from the story, the true sci-fi story should collapse.
These are the kinds of sci-fi stories I read from Asimov, Clarke, etc. where the hero’s problem entirely revolved around a science-fictional element… In 2001, for example, David Bowman’s (and crew’s) problems were entirely connected to advanced technology (the HAL9000), and the aliens (their monolith). Without these elements, David Bowman is just floating in space.
Finally, I believe that we each develop numerous ideas about (in this case) what sci-fi is, and what it is not, mostly based on everything we have read, seen and heard. We develop a particular logic about it all. And then, on the basis of those ideas, we decide what we think of as sci-fi, or fantasy, or whatever… this is true of everything, isn’t it? So, what I think of as sci-fi is, possibly, quite different than what others may think of as sci-fi, simply on the basis of what we have been exposed to. I don’t think it makes one right and one wrong… it just makes us different.
Anyway, I love Star Trek too… :-)
Can’t let the opportunity to take 2001 down a few notches go by. Please include my name on the list of those poor unenlightened souls who don’t worship 2001. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I understand all the allegory, and picked up all the nuance. I just can’t stay awake through all the meaningfulness. Mother of God, is it ever boring. I always got a kick out of the criticism of TMP as the “motionless” picture, and being a rip-off of 2001. I’m sorry, but compared to 2001, TMP is a rip-snorting, Raiders-of-the-Lost-Arkesque, slam-bam, adrenaline-soaked actionfest. (I’d argue that 2001 wasn’t even the best sci-fi film of 1968, Planet of the Apes was)
I’d further argue that TMP’s themes of self-discovery (Is this all that I am, is there nothing more?) are better written, better delivered by a larger than life sci-fi icon (Spock), more relevant, more accessible, and more deeply affecting than those of 2001. Not to mention more entertaining, which is of no small importance to a movie.
Having said all that, TMP is no TWOK. I saw TWOK. TWOK was a friend of mine. TMP is no TWOK. (Lloyd Benson reference!) Simply not as entertaining. But my beef is with 2001. Have at you! Tis but a flesh wound.