SciFi ENT & TNG Marathons + Nemesis AMC Premiere [UPDATE: Trek Trivia Quiz w/ Prize] August 26, 2008
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: ENT, Feature Films (TMP-NEM), TNG, Trek Franchise , trackback
This week there are some happenings for Star Trek on TV. Firstly the last Trek film, Nemesis, has its network TV premiere on the AMC Network, with more showings later in the week. Plus the Sci-Fi Channel has two Trek marathons lined up for Labor Day weekend. There are also some changes ahead in the fall schedule for Trek on cable.
Nemesis network premiere on AMC
In the last week the AMC Channel held the network TV premiere of Star Trek Nemesis, and you can catch it this week airing Thursday August 28th at 10:30 PM and Friday August 29th at 3PM. To celebrate Jean Luc meeting himself in the form of Shinzon, the AMC blog has a post all about clones, which includes a poll where you can rank your favorite clone movies. Currently Nemesis is leading the voting, beating such clone-erific movies as Star Wars Episode II and even the Michael Keaton comedy Multiplicity.
UPDATE: New AMC Trivia Quiz - Win Galaxy Quest DVD
AMC have just added a new Star Trek Trivia Quiz and if you answer all 15 questions correctly (and any TrekMovie.com reader should be able to), you can enter to win a Galaxy Quest DVD.
Catch Nemesis on AMC to see Jean Luc stare into his past
…and the end of his franchise
TNG and Enterprise ‘Viewers Choice’ Marathons this weekend
Since June the SciFi Channel has been the cable home for both Star Trek The Next Generation and Star Trek Enterprise (which started earlier in the year). For this Labor Day weekend the channel is going Trek crazy with an all day marathon of Enterprise on Friday and a Next Gen marathon on Monday, both based on views choice polls for favorite episodes. The ENT marathon has 22 episodes kicking off 8 am Friday and running through to Saturday morning, with a clear focus on fan faves from seasons three and four. The TNG marathon has 15 episodes starting 8 am Monday, including all the big ones like "Yesterday’s Enterprise," "Inner Light," and "Best of Both Worlds."
This weekend you get 37 hours of the NX-01 and 1701-D
on the Sci Fi Channel
Changes for Trek on cable
There are more changes to the cable landscape for Trek re-runs. Spike has been moving things around again but seem to have settled on 3 airings of DS9 per week (Mon-Wed at 2 am) with multiple airings of Voyager almost every day (Mon-Fri, see chart below). After Sci-Fi Channel’s TNG and Enterprise marathons, both shows will be changing times as well. TNG will now air once per week (Tuesdays at 7 pm in September and then to Fridays in October) and Enterprise will now air Monday-Friday at 5 pm. TV Land will continue to run The Original Series at 6 am and HDNet is apparently no longer running Enterprise.
Star Trek on Cable (US/Canada)
| Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | ||
| TOS | TVLand | 6am | 6am | 6am | 6am | 6am |
| TNG* | Sci-Fi | 7pm | 7pm* | |||
| DS9 | Spike | 2am | 2am | 2am | ||
| VOY | Spike | 1am, 4pm, 5pm |
1am, 4pm, 5pm | 1am, | 1am, 4pm, 5pm |
4pm, 5pm |
| ENT** | Sci-Fi | 5pm | 5pm | 5pm | 5pm | 5pm |
* Starting Sept 9th, moving to Fridays Oct. 10th
** Starting Sept. 22.
all of the above is subject to change, always good to check your local listings
Awaiting TOS-R 2008/2009 schedule
Many readers have emailed TrekMovie about the upcoming schedule for Star Trek Remastered in syndication and we are working on getting a finalized list and will report as soon as we can. As of now the only remastered episode that has yet to air is the original pilot "The Cage." TrekMovie has been told this will air in 2009, but you will be able to catch it in November on the Season Three DVD set.
Comments»
Thanks for the update….I will set my DVR’s
Captain Walker
USS Las Vegas
Star Trek Club
Watched it a few days ago on AMC.
It gets a bad wrap. IMHO
Though Shinzon should have laughed when he was impaled. Just like Picard when he lost his heart.
Marathons tire the heck out of me.
I hate having to stay up till 2 AM each night this summer to watch DS9
Do you know if TV Land will be showing the remastered TOS episodes?
6.
So far all I’ve seen on TV Land are the original episodes. You know, the ones where the enterprise doesn’t look like a freshly polished stainless steel gas grill.
I will say that Nemesis wasn’t nearly as bad as Insurrection. Of course, I thought ST:V wasn’t as bad as Insurrection, so take that for what it’s worth. :-)
4.
That’s why I still haven’t watched that series, despite how much everyone seems to love and recommend it. The episodes are in such a dead-end slot, and I have no idea when they’ll be at the beginning of the series so even recording them wouldn’t be much use… and forget about DVDs. I don’t have that kind of money. :(
Thank God for CBS.com and Target. I get to watch TOS without waking up so darned early.
I kind of miss the Sci Fi or was it Spike that did the ST TOS with DVD notes, background notes and other fun things. Heck, I miss the G4 commercials the Spock in his “house”…….
Captain Walker,
Good to see another IFT captain on here !!!
I’m looking forward to The Cage remastered.
*shudder*
Star Trek Nemesis should have been called “Star Trek’s Nemesis.”
The director never even saw an episode of Star Trek TNG, and thought Geordi was some kind of alien. This movie was the anvil that broke the camel’s back, and dealt the coup de grace to Star Trek.
AOTC is far better than Nemesis.
Actually, Nemesis wasn’t all that bad.
Not great, but an enjoyable romp for the most part.Some of the extended scenes cut from the scene really should have been left in, since they would have put a little of soul back.
Did anyone watch the Tuesday morning episode
of Star Trek TOS on Tv Land? Several times the
audio was so bad that it just totally dropped out.
Can’t they get or show the DVD’s without the
all of this? Are they that cheap to stick to what
they have? Also…I wonder what stations IF any
will be showing the original Star Trek that has
been refurbished?
Yes! Thank you #2 and #13. I just rewatched Nemesis yesterday and can’t understand why it is so reviled. It is much, much better than people give it credit for. It has a number of very, very nice moments (even more if you include the cut scenes).
Data’s finest moments were in Nemesis…
Nemesis was pretty decent for action sequences. I thought the wedding party was great.
#16
Just as some of Kirk, Spock and McCoy’s best moments together were in STV.
Went to the cinema to see nemesis, after 2 weeks of launch it was still packed, I liked it Nemesis, but i agree under a different director it could have done better. I was a massive fan of TNG and i’m gutted that it didnt do so well.
“never saw the sun, shining so bright, never saw things, going so right”
I saw Nemesis on opening night. I’ve seen all the TNG movies on opening night. It was about half full. I really got sad when Data died and Riker couldn’t remember the name of the song Data was whistling in Encounter at Fairpoint.
Nemesis on AMC? I thought AMC stood for American Movie Classics, not Amatuer Movie Collection. Gadzooks! What’s next for A-M-C, Gigli? Never seen it, but that might be an improvement…
I kind of like having “late night” Trek after Leno and Conan. Bad part of it is, they don’t play DS9 at any other time. Remember when TNN/Spike first picked up the rights to TNG, DS9, VGR, and the first six films? I’d rather see TNG/DS9 played every night than CSI.
I cant watch movies on cable all stretched and commercials every 10 minutes. Same goes for TV series. They’re cut to hell, and you get huge ads that cover up half the screen.
You know, I’ve always wondered why there seems to be so much hatred for Nemesis and Enterprise, both of which I loved.
I think it had nothing to do with the actual quality; I think it had to do simply with timing.
Both Nemesis and Enterprise came after 15 solid years of Trek, usually with two TV shows and a movie coming out or just released. I think people simply got sick of Trek for a while.
That first piece of gourmet cheesecake tastes amazing. But that 15th piece in a row is nauseating. The quality of both pieces is identical, they’re both gourmet. It’s simply a matter of timing.
If Nemesis or Enterprise had come out after a drought of Trek, they would have been beloved and successful.
The action in Nemesis is awesome…but the biggest problem to me, is how Shinzon needs Picard’s blood…but he decides to have him for dinner and bs about his childhood. Lot of things annoy me, but its above Insurrection for me!
I think the internet has turned me into an anti-nemesis person, lol!
#19 and #20,
You both referenced the ending of Nemesis. I think that the ending sequence is brilliant. Data at his most human–dying to save his friends. Picard’s simple toast. Riker trying to remember the song Data had whistled. B4 singing, “…never saw things, going so right…” Picard finding hope again as he strides down the corridor of the Enterprise.
Still chokes me up a little. It’s wonderful.
“but the biggest problem to me, is how Shinzon needs Picard’s blood…but he decides to have him for dinner and bs about his childhood.”
That doesn’t bother me at all. In that scene, Picard calls himself an explorer. Shinzon was the same way. He couldn’t pass up the opportunity to “explore” who he was. The Viceroy even chided him for it afterwards–so its not like the writers didn’t realize that what Shinzon did was dumb. It also showed Shinzon’s overconfidence (a key theme of the movie) in thinking he could have Picard’s blood whenever he wanted it, no rush.
Long weekend + TNG marathon?!? I’m laying out my comfiest pajamas for a day in bed with the Enterprise D.
Watched this on AMC. It was a lot worse (actually painful to watch) than I remembered at the movies. I recall Generations taking a lot of shots, but this is far better than Nemesis or Insurrection…
Two total dud movies in a row killed of Star Trek on the big screen. If the new Trek turns out to be epic/great, then maybe I’ll be grateful for TNG movie’s embarrasment.
I was no fan of Nemesis, poor man’s remake of Star Trek II that it was, but I still think its a lot better than Insurrection, which I find to be truly horrible. As bad as Trek V may have been, at least Bill Shatner wasn’t singing showtunes and climbing scaffolding in a sweaty tanktop a la Sigourney Weaver.
Insurrection really killed off any interest in Trek I had. God, that movie was so average, DS9 and VOY were really average too, and then bam, Insurrection comes out.
“Nemesis” was a minor flick, but it wasn’t bad. It certainly didn’t replace “Star Trek 5″ as the worst Trek film ever made - not even close.
I caught the last hour or so of Nemesis on AMC the other night, and actually pretty much enjoyed it. The action is pretty good, and when you skip that embarrassing dune buggy sequence (Prime Directive?) it plays pretty well.
Definitely better than I remembered…
21. Rag451
Nemesis on AMC? I thought AMC stood for American Movie Classics, not Amatuer Movie Collection. Gadzooks! What’s next for A-M-C, Gigli? Never seen it, but that might be an improvement…
My thoughts exactly! Actually, I was going to post almost this identical perspective, but you beat me to it!
I loved TNG when it was on the air, but the movies sometimes left me a little cold…mainly, I think because they kept forgetting their own cannon with lazy scriptwriting. Visually, they were beautiful films to watch with incredible effects and set design, but story-wise. meh.
Here’s eternally hoping Abrams, Orci, et al have taken these lessons to heart.
I really liked the dune buggy sequence. I laugh when Data puts B 4’s head in that compartment and B 4 says, “Have I said something wrong?” I thought that was really funny.
Wow. That AMC premiere of “Star Trek: Nemesis” is more like a basic cable premiere. Now, when will that movie air on a broadcasting network like CBS a a “network broadcast premiere”? The last time a Star Trek motion picture premiered on a broadcasting television network is when NBC, the network that aired both the original and animated series, aired 1998’s “Insurrection” back in 2002.
…Egads! AMC thinks Nemesis is a classic? Next thing you know they’ll be giving Xanadu, Heaven’s Gate and Breakin’ 2: Electric Boogaloo the same treatment!
[Bangs head against brick wall]
I love Star Trek V. Some of the best character moments in the whole series. I really don’t get why people think it’s so horrible.
“Marathons tire the heck out of me.”
….And yet, I can remember the first time one of the stations on cable(*) aired a TOS marathon. It was 1972, it was a San Antonio channel, and it was the first time any station in Texas had gotten overnight ratings at the same numbers as during Prime Time. TOS from 10:30pm to 5:30am was a Trekker’s wet dream back then. Nowadays *nobody* blinks when such marathons occur.
(*) Back in the days before the FCC invoked this bullshit called “FinSyn”, cable companies could air any TV station they wanted that they could get relay airspace for. We should be able to watch any TV station in any city we want now, with 1000 channel TVs. But nooooo….
Trek IV had the best TOS character moments, I think. Classic movie.
I have tried so hard to like Nemesis…but I just can’t.
9 - word. Those Saturday TOS marathons on G4 were so much fun - I’m not really into chatrooms, but I really looked forward to hang out on Saturdays in the G4 Trek one, participating in ‘Mystery Trek Theater Two-Thousand…and Six.’ Sometimes, oftentimes, Trek can be a fairly solo pastime; it was nice to mingle with other people watching the same thing at the same time, the best of the bunch coming up with lol-worthy one liners. Good times.
Skipped Nemesis in the theater and then just forgot about it, so I saw it the first time last week. Certainly more watchable than many other ‘American Movie Classics,’ like that ‘classic’ 1978 King Kong they seem to show every other week. Anyway, I was REALLY annoyed at how they collected all the pieces of B4 without wondering WHY they were there, then proceeded to load him up with all of Data’s data. I mean, shouldn’t Data at least have had shareable AND private folders in that memory of his? Of course this is answered, as all Trek ‘but why’s’ are: because if they didn’t, there wouldn’t be a movie/episode/dramatic moment.
Lastly, I hope TOS shows up on local in the fall at a time when I’m not out partying or sound asleep (Saturdays at 12:30 am??????) Would it kill Channel 5 to repeat it on Sunday afternoons? Grrrr.
I know - Tivo, VCR, etc. Sue me, I’ve always liked the idea of watching something when I know other people are watching it too. Can’t explain it.
13, I completely agree. The deleted scenes is probably due to the fact that they had a director who didn’t understand Star Trek or what it’s about. While I believe that Nemesis is the second weakest TNG film I also believe that Nemesis is the most underrated Trek film.
Trek Films (From best to Worst, IMO)
1. ST: First Contact
2. ST VI: The Undiscovered Country
3. ST II: The Wrath of Khan
4. ST IV: The Voyage Home
5. ST III: The Search for Spock
6. ST: Insurrection
7. ST: Nemesis
8. ST: Generations
9. ST: The Motion Picture
10. ST V: The Final Frontier
My interest in Star Trek peaked in 1996 with First Contact. Mark Lenard (Sarek) died the day FC came out, so I went into that movie with a real sense of pride, loss, and love for the “franchise.” Much as I liked FC, though, it was never as good in my opinion as II, IV, III, and VI, in that order. It was the best TNG film, however.
We were too saturated, and the Trek universe grew too big. I wish the television franchise had stopped with TNG in 1994, waited, and kept moving with DS9 in 1995 or 1996. I also wish the movie franchise had stopped with First Contact and continued with a different cast, perhaps even a new cast with series tie-ins after the movie.
Trek has had a conventional television and film run in that there have never been direct-to-DVD movies or television mini-series. I think Star Trek could have benefitted from taking advantage of this market, especially with TNG, which was the last mainstream Star Trek series with widespread popularity outside the base. It would be nice if, on occasion, the crew of the Enterprise-D, er E, reunited for a two or four-hour mini-series.
But I digress…
Nemesis = Horrible. Wesley in a Starfleet uniform? Worf on the Enterprise? How did the Enterprise detect a positronic signal hours from a planet? Data has more “brothers?” Can we ever decide the number of decks on the Enterprise-E? Why ram the Schimitar and kill scores of crewmen? Have ATVs replaced the transporter for landing parties?
The movie had its moments. I liked when Picard called Riker “Mister Troi,” and the reference to the traditional Betazed wedding was humorous. But other than that, it was a meaningless film. I felt nothing when Data died, whereas when Spock met his end, I was bawling.
Funny, though, I freely admit I am a hypocrite. I [used to] love continuity, and I blast Insurrection, Nemesis, VGR, and ENT for existing outside that boundary. Yet, look at this new movie. Chances are, I could watch it with a critical eye and find a dozen moments that are probably “wrong” by old standards. But now I don’t care. I’m just along for the ride…
Marathons are great - if I have time to watch them. I would like for the SciFi Channel to also show TNG every night but so far I’m happy with the amount of Voyager Spike TV show but they need to move DS9 to a better time slot. TVLand should also show TOS at a more reasonable time.
One last note, of course Nemesis is better than Attack of the Clones. Star Trek is always better than Star Wars even on Star Trek’s worst day (ST V: The Final Frontier) and Star War’s best day (SW: Return of the Jedi).
Jedi = Best?
Really?
“Wesley in a Starfleet uniform? ”
Explained in a deleted scene.
“Worf on the Enterprise?”
I always assumed that he had bummed a ride on the Enterprise to and from the wedding, and then obviously plans changed when everything happened. That’s not a huge stretch.
“How did the Enterprise detect a positronic signal hours from a planet? ”
State of the art sensors on the brand new top of the line Enterprise.
“Data has more “brothers?” ”
Didn’t an episode of TNG establish that Dr. Soong had gone through many attempts before Lore and Data?
“Can we ever decide the number of decks on the Enterprise-E?”
A minor problem that shouldn’t wreck a movie. There are possible explanations. Decks could be numbered differently based on where in the ship you are.
“Why ram the Schimitar and kill scores of crewmen?”
The plan was for both ships to be destroyed. It was Picard’s final option after the self-destruct malfunctioned. The plan was to kill ALL the crewmen, in an effort to save Earth.
“Have ATVs replaced the transporter for landing parties?”
The transporters weren’t working at the time.
See? All of these things that people always kill Nemesis about aren’t issues at all. Other movies have had much, much more serious holes. The criticisms of Nemesis aren’t fair at all.
I bet there were far few casualties on the E when it rammed the Scimitar. When the order came, I’m sure everyone in the front areas of the ship got the heck out;. Also, the shields were up, so I bet that prevented a lot of deaths.
#47 Yeah? Well then what exactly the hell was Shinzon’s motivation?? The movie sucked and everyone knows it.
#7 Viking- Insurrection was entertaining. Nemesis was distractingly bad, not to mention depressing on many levels.
Nice to see that Spike thinks that Voyager was so brilliant that we need to have it rammed down our throats multiple times a day, while DS9 gets shown at only at 2am.
What idiots.
Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth because that was Picard’s home planet. Shinzon was jealous his life got shafted when he became a petty slave for the Remans, and wanted to exact revenge on the very people that created him.
“Well then what exactly the hell was Shinzon’s motivation??”
Well, if you were born in a lab with no mom or dad, then rejected and sent into slavery as a boy, found out that the people who did this to left you with a deadly defect, and then discovered that your long-lost “twin brother” is a successful, powerful, respected man, don’t you think you might be a little upset and maybe want to blow some stuff up?
I would.
I’d say that’s some pretty powerful motivation.
43 & 47 … Excellent posts.
Finally a thread where Nemesis gets some respect. It is so unfairly maligned. If Frakes had directed it, I believe it would have been great. Unfortunately, Stuart Baird was not up to the task.
Loads of great sequences in this film.
my god. for once i’m experiencing a minor flood of postitve support for Nemesis. Its great to hear it!
I’m always a pro-nemesis poster here and on other sites….and i was reading down through here i was happy with the the posts that gave Nemesis its props. or at least a lack of hate. finally! keep it up guys!
The other thing you have to remember about Nemesis is that it was up against Harry Potter, James Bond, and Lord of the Rings.
So Nemesis had the glut of 15 years of solid Trek plus competition against three of the biggest film franchises in history. What did they expect to happen? Too many people base their opinion of a film on its box office numbers.
If Nemesis had come out after several years without any Trek in a month with little competition it would have been huge and gone down as a hit.
No, James Bond went up against TTT and it did quite well. It was just that no one cared about another TNG movie after Insurrection came out and killed the TNG franchise.
If Nemesis would have been a run away big hit, would all of you be talking about it like this? But, then again, people are drawn to only success and attack failure when it comes to the $. Nemesis was a good movie, if we would have seen that in ‘94 instead of Generations (poor quality film, reusing t.v. sets, and uniforms, ala Rikers uniform was avery Brook’s from DS9 hence the rolled up sleeves, alog with the TNG uniforms), with that level of quality we would have thought it was great, but, now everyone has become very jaded. I think Nemesis was a success, Stewart, Spiner, and Shinzon were great, there were great scenes, and the score was fantastic as well as the graphics and makeup, all high quality.
Wesley in a Starfleet uniform?: His voyage with the traveller ended and he decided to rejoin starfleet like Spock did in TMP
Worf on the Enterprise?:Ambassadorial work was not for him, so, upon returning from Qronos he hitched a ride on the Enterprise back to Alaska on Earth
How did the Enterprise detect a positronic signal hours from a planet?
Because the E’s tech is high quality and the Romulans boosted it, because they wanted them to see it.
Data has more “brothers?”
Prototypes are not uncommon for tech advances and Shinzon found one on the annexed data’s planet after the Jem Hadar war, that part of the federation was traded for more valuable worlds and Shinzon came across the remains of the prototype
Can we ever decide the number of decks on the Enterprise-E?
It had been 4 years since Insurrection, as obvious by what we see in Nemesis they had a major refit, probably after the loss of the warp core
Why ram the Schimitar and kill scores of crewmen?
As someone said earlier they WERE GOING TO BLOW UP THE SHIP AND KILL EVERYONE! EVEN SPOT!
Have ATVs replaced the transporter for landing parties?
Heavy deposits prevented beamdown to the accurate coordinates, would you want to search for positronic signals in 125 degree heat over a 100 square mile area?
Wes,
It’s nice that Nemesis has its fair share of apologists, but how do you measure success? Because there were a few mediocre scenes? If that’s the case there are hundreds, thousands of filmmakers out there who can call themselves a “success” while their film sits in a can unnoticed.
According to figures from Paramount Nemesis was the only Trek film, that includes the much loathed Star Trek V, to lose money. If the film had been better it would have found an audience. Rings and Bond were stiff competition but previous Treks have weathered the likes of E.T., Rocky, Indiana Jones, Batman and Ghostbusters and managed to come out in the black.
#57,
Box office success is no way to measure the quality of a film at all. If that were true, Titanic is the greatest film ever made. I beg to differ.
I wholeheartedly agree that box office is in no way a measure of quality. However, with Nemesis the proof is in the pudding.
#51: well.. when you put it that way.. ;-)
I think Titanic is pretty damn good
i wish picard woulda stabbed shinzon in the head then when data put the emergency transporter on picard picard coulda had shinzons body by the arms that way picard coulda gotten a real heart again…
” Wes,
It’s nice that Nemesis has its fair share of apologists, but how do you measure success? Because there were a few mediocre scenes? If that’s the case there are hundreds, thousands of filmmakers out there who can call themselves a “success” while their film sits in a can unnoticed.
According to figures from Paramount Nemesis was the only Trek film, that includes the much loathed Star Trek V, to lose money. If the film had been better it would have found an audience. Rings and Bond were stiff competition but previous Treks have weathered the likes of E.T., Rocky, Indiana Jones, Batman and Ghostbusters and managed to come out in the black.”
A few mediocre scenes? If you would have put kirk and crew in that movie, with some minor tweaking in the script and changing Shinzon to Khan it could blow Wrath of Khan out of the water, especially the final half of the movie. The battle scenes were great, and the ultimate, ‘human’ sacrifice of Data proved that he had shown the ultimate example that he was human there were many good moments like the scene where Troi reverses her psychic powers to find the ship, etc. As for the movies you mentioned, ET came out after Wrath and ET was a family movie and people in those days could see more movies as they werent 8 or 10 bucks back then! Busters, and Jones came out in 1984 and 1989 when III and V came out, both had weaker box office showings than their respective predecessors. And one big thing that you are forgetting is that back then, Trek did not 800+ hours of Television and 10 movies, everyone looked forward to seeing Trek every couple of years, especially when the Saga (II,III,IV) came out. And finally, Trek was in the mainstream in those days now it is off the radar and Trek is worn out. And by the time Nemesis came out Trek was dead, after Voyager and the deluge of Sci Fi and the change in the viewership Nemesis never had a chance like I-IV did. Because there were hours of trek by then. Take Nemesis back to 1982 bring it out and watch it become the biggest hit in movie history, unlike in 2002 when people had seen everything with Trek and sci fi and there were other movies in the marketplace of the same genre with the same viewers, also, lets not forget up until the mid 90’s you did not see a movie out on Video for almost a year after the movie was in the theater, so, you saw it multiple times.
The ending should have been Data and Picard VS Shinzon. Data beams to the Scimitar, throws Picard the transporter thing. Picard slaps it on Shinzon, and beams him to space where he dies. Then Data fires at the core. It goes up, but of course, Picard and Data escape the ship before it explodes.
Do any of you “Nemesis praisers” really think Picard and shinzon looked alike at all?
anyways AMC has changed its ways and will show anything nowadays..
Kind of like how the sci-fi channel shows both horror and sci-fi shows..and dont get me started on tv-land and cartoon network….
HELP ME KIRK!
#4 and that’s why we resort to stock-piling DVDs in our back cupboard
One thing that bugged me about Nemesis was the GOODBYES!
I thought they could have had a bigger goodbye between Picard and Riker, Crusher, troi etc.
I thought that would have been a fitting end to the movie.
ah, the film i think of as “star trek: meaningless”.
those hours more or less alone in a cold theatre, trying to cope with my obscure embarrassment and pure awe at how incredibly uninteresting the crew of the enterprise really were. i remember thinking that i was at last free of my need to love all things trek, and somehow marveling at how pretty the colours were while remaining plastic and flat. the acting was arrogantly thin and the art direction smelled of video games.
dennis b., i always pretty much agree with everything you have to say, but at least STV was just stupid badness, not vapid and insipid. nemesis begs you cheapen yourself as you watch it. it’s not even deep enough to cringe over, as STV was.
insurrection wasn’t any better of course, and it pretty much tainted the entire next generation tv series for me.
>>TVLand should also show TOS at a more reasonable time.<<
I actually like the 6AM timeslot. I have my TV programmed to come on at 6 as an alarm clock, and then I can watch/listen while I’m getting ready for work.
How many votes did “Sub Rosa” get? Gotta love an Anne Rice-style (aka rip-off) story about possession and public self-gratification. Poor Gates. After being underloved for much of the series they gave her THAT?
Every time I read a comment about how ST needs “a rest”, it makes me want to pull what’s left of my hair out.
What Star Trek needs is a STORY. Book-ending “clone Picard” and “Data brothers” to drive a plot point home with a sledgehammer and throwing in a dune buggy scene for the heck of it is LAZY.
Shakespeare-spoutin’ Klingons is another example from the TOS days.
There are a lot of story elements that could have helped all these films, if the producers would take the time to explore them.
I am hoping the new team will keep STORY first and foremost. If there are differences in design and if Uhura’s earpiece is in the wrong ear, that’s not nearly as important to me (and my repeated viewings) as a compelling story that’s grounded in believable situations.
As Gene Roddenberry himself said, you don’t have to explain how a phaser works. Does a police officer stop and explain the workings of his Smith & Wesson before he shoots? Nope.
Here’s my take on “great” films like Titanic, Pearl Harbor… and other films like them, filmmakers take a historically significant moment in history, and instead of truly glorifying the event and its heroes, it gets turned into some lambasted, sickening sweet love story… and not even one about the people who were there. I would have felt far more pathos if they had focused on the real people who were there.
Back to TREK (we now return you to our regularly schedule program)
I liked Nemesis, but let’s face it some moments just fell flat for me. I did not once feel convinced of Shinzon’s ablity to lead a revolt. an the dune buggy scene belonged in another film genre, not TREK.
and I think Insurrection also gets a bad rap. I like it quite a bit… to me, it harkened back to the storytelling TREK does best.. taking a moral stance on something, rather than the ramped up space battles which have typified the TREK movies, to a large extent.. that was never what TREK was about on TV, so why is this so on the movies?
“What Star Trek needs is a STORY. Book-ending “clone Picard” and “Data brothers” to drive a plot point home with a sledgehammer and throwing in a dune buggy scene for the heck of it is LAZY.”
Yeah, I can definitely see the issues that people have with twin Picards and twin Datas in the same movie. I always imagined that Shinzon, like Picard, had a penchant for the poetic and when he found B4 he couldn’t pass up the opportunity for some poetic parallelism–using Data’s twin to bring down his own twin. Plus, he knew that the Enterprise would have no choice but to investigate.
I will admit that the dune buggies were pretty cheesy, but I can live with that. I don’t think it hurt the overall movie much.
Incidentally, classics such as The Wizard of Oz did not turn a profit for its producers until it first aired on television… box office numbers mean nothing in regards to quality…
SCIFI is only showing TNG once a week?
HUH? Did I miss something? Its pulled out of syndication and SciFi buys the rights and shows it once a week? Am I the only one that finds this odd?
Glad to see some bones thrown to Nemesis. It was never that bad.
I still like Insurrection too. Neither are “classics,” but are both superior to STV. Goes to show, ALL ST films have value and I can appreciate all of them.
Check your local stations; several cities air epsiodes of TOS on local stations.
Watched Nemesis again for the first time since seeing it at the theater. It was good but it seemed as though they just wanted to make a ST movie and it wasn’t anything new or creative or engaging. It was very hot or miss; some parts were good and some were weak. It just didn’t make me go WOW like Voyage Home and First Contact.
Please don’t remind me about Nemesis.
There are moments of “Nemesis” I do enjoy, but the film simply fails to move me. The connection between Picard and Shinzon was forced and unconvincing, as was the Data/B-4 MacGuffin. The entire story rests firmly on the conceit that the Romulans would have allowed Shinzon to live after their plan to replace Picard with him is mothballed. They would simply have destroyed him and moved on to their next nefarious scheme. After I realized that, everything else just fell apart.
And I refuse to like any movie that commits the crime of hiding the exquisitely lovely Dina Meyer under layers of make-up and a bulkly Romulan uniform. She should have been dressed more like the Romulan Commander from the TOS episode “The Enterprise Incident.”
The film does have incredible visual FX though, and that saving grace places it one notch above Trek V on the worst Trek movie list.
47. AP
Any movie that requires that much internal justifying is not worth the effort. Why not just asterix each scene and provide a set of footnotes at the end of the film explaining away all the discrepencies? Utter crap.
Nemesis is no more an “American Movie Classic” than Nightmare on Elm Street 4: The Dream Master.
Wow…Nemesis on a channel which calls itself “American Movie Classics”.
AMC’s credibility just went down the crapper…You can buy that dvd for $5 at the Dollar General…(although I’d rather have about a gallon and a third of gasoline instead).
To quote Marlon Brando in “Apocalypse Now”—-
“The horror…the horror…the horror…”
#80,
Actually it’s the really good movies that need “internal justifying”. The bad movies are the ones that assume you can’t figure out what’s going on and thus explain every little thing to you like you’re a 5 year old.
Take “2001″ as an example. That movie explains nothing. After watching it you have to spend a couple of hours “justifying” what you just saw–trying to figure out how everything fit together.
Now obviously I’m not comparing Nemesis to 2001, but the principle is the same. Obviously the writers could have had Worf say, “Thanks for the ride captain. I’m glad you could give me a ride to the wedding.” They could have had Geordi say, “Boy these new sensors are great because they allow us to pick up positronic signals from a long ways away.”
But the writers actually respected that fact that people could figure out what was going on without having to tell us every little detail. So, no, there aren’t discrepancies in Nemesis (at least no more than in any other Trek movie), there are simply details which we weren’t filled in on.
Besides, about half of the things I talked about in the post you are referencing (#47) were details that we were told, but which the previous poster had forgotten or neglected. (Like why Picard rammed the Scimitar, which was explained and made complete sense.)
82. AP
Whereas I agree with you that 2001 is brilliant at least in part because it allows the viewer to come to his or her own conclusion I couldn’t disagree with you more that that is one of Nemesis’ strengths. In fact, the more one ruminates over Nemesis the faster it unravels.
Crap writing, crap directing, crap acting. Some folks here like Wes above want to blame Nemesis’ bad rep on its’ being overshadowed at the box office by LotR and James Bond but that’s ridiculous. I don’t loathe Nemesis because it came out at the same time as The Two Towers. That makes zero sense. It was a bad movie. It was a wrong turn for TNG, a wrong turn down a dead-end road. None of the character moments resonated for me. It tried too hard to be Wrath of Khan even to the point of having Data, the surrogate Spock, make the ultimate sacrifice to save the ship — only to have a glimmer of hope (in anticipation of a potential Search for Spockesque sequel) of Data’s ‘resurrection’ in the person of B-4. TNG never needed to remake Wrath of Khan, just as they never needed to remake the dozen or so mediocre episodes they rehashed in Insurrection. First Contact was a satisfying film all around and a worthy installment of the series. The two that came afterward were superflous, unneccessary and irritating and neither were worth the time or money to see in a theatre given that similar and sometimes better episodes of DS9 and VOY were still airing on TV at the time.
It makes me sad to see “fans” on this site arguing about what was the worst star trek movie. You gave your opinion, now leave it alone, and dont call it utter crap. How about this, if you must try to degrade the shows or movies, and ridicule peoples opinions, do it away from a board dedicated to trek fans.
YOU killed trek by being such critics.
My take on Nemesis: It was a good movie for what it was. It was just a really bad story.
#84—-”YOU killed trek by being such critics”.
It is obviously not dead, since Paramount is spending close to $168 million on STXI. The failure of ENT and NEM may have ultimately been the best thing to happen to Trek. Paramount is now returning to its A-Team (Kirk/Spock/McCoy).
I wasn’t disappointed at all with Nemesis, since I never expected much from a TNG movie to begin with. I never spent a dime to see any of those films. I guess I killed the franchise, huh?
Now STV: The Great Trek Turd Of ‘89 (aka TFF) was a disappointment to me, but that’s another topic.
Does anyone remember the rumors prior to the filming of Nemesis that the story was going to be Picard vs. Spock - and tie into the Romulan reunification plotline?
Was there any truth in the beginning to that rumor, or was it just some fanboy crap?
The only good thing I can say about Nemesis is that it had some pretty cool action scenes. And thats it. The story and writing were mediocre at best, and overall the movie just felt like it really lacked character. The TNG crew deserved a better finish than that.
84. Adam Shepherdson -
“YOU killed trek by being such critics.”
I didn’t kill Trek. Trek ain’t dead and if it was it would’nt be dead at my hands. I’m critical when I recognize its’ failings. If I wasn’t critical I’d be happy with whatever crap was shoveled at me as long as it had the Trek label on it. I like Trek because I feel I have descriminating tastes. I call bullshit when someone foists second-rate tripe on me and expects me to lap it up. You may think this makes me less a “fan”, I argue it makes me more of one.
For the record (again) I am looking forward to the next film with great enthusiasm and optimism. Just as I did when I went to see Insurrection and Nemesis and every single Trek film since 1979. I loved all of those films — except those last two and V because they were crap. I stand by my opinion.
“Do any of you “Nemesis praisers” really think Picard and shinzon looked alike at all?”
Does Chris Pine even remotely look like Shatner? And Shatner in Where No Man Has Gone Before? And he is supposed to be the same exact person! Not an abused clone! End of discussion…
“Paramount is now returning to its A-Team (Kirk/Spock/McCoy).”
Nope, there is no De Kelley, no Shatner, Takei, Koenig, Doohan, Nichols. And Leonard will probably be in a smaller role than the young cast. People went to see I-VI partly because we got attached to those actors and people, just because Pine and the rest are playing the same characters, does not mean it will be or is the ‘a-team’ if anything, the list of actors sounds like the c-movie team (with the exception of Quinto, Bana and Nimoy)
“It is obviously not dead, since Paramount is spending close to $168 million on STXI. The failure of ENT and NEM may have ultimately been the best thing to happen to Trek”
No, it was very bad for Trek, because now it is scarred and not in the mainstream. Enterprise is apparently not a failure, since it is watched by many on Sci Fi.
“The two that came afterward were superflous, ”
So, can some explain to me why Insurrection is so bad? Everyone keeps saying it was bad, bad and bad, but never any reasons specifically! Give 10 reasons why it was so bad!
Nemesis ROCKED!!!
#90—”People went to see I-VI partly because we got attached to those actors and people, just because Pine and the rest are playing the same characters, does not mean it will be or is the ‘a-team’ if anything, the list of actors sounds like the c-movie team (with the exception of Quinto, Bana and Nimoy)”
Those wonderful characters are and will forever be far bigger to me than the actors who portrayed them. I am not that closed-minded. I will anticipate seeing the same characters until there is reason to believe they are not, and I find it quite presumptous of you to determine for me why I went to see those movies.
I am not lacking in imagination. I will see James T. Kirk when I look at Chris Pine as long as he portrays the character as he is written—loyal, charismatic, confident (bordering on arrogant), brave, willing to solve as many problems with his fists as with his mind, able to command a room just by walking into it, and quite popular with the ladies as well. He doesn’t need to look like Shatner to me. He only needs to bring to his character the same qualities that he was given in the 60’s.
“…it was very bad for Trek, because now it is scarred and not in the mainstream.”
That’s funny. I have been a Star Trek fan for decades, and don’t recall it ever being in the mainstream. It was always “scarred” by the preconceived notions which prevented it from ever becoming “mainstream”.
“…can some explain to me why Insurrection is so bad? ”
I won’t presume to speak for everyone, but for my money, it was bad for the same reasons all of the other TNG-era films did worse than 5 of the 6 original films…the characters lacked the iconic status of the originals, were far less interesting, and were not nearly as feature-film worthy as their predecessors.
Although I never paid to see any of the TNG-era films at the box-office, I did watch them eventually. Generations ticked me off, FC was mediocre, Insurrection put me to sleep, and Nemesis had me rolling my eyes half the time and asking, “what has this come to?”. But that is just one fan’s opinion.
“Enterprise is apparently not a failure, since it is watched by many on Sci Fi.”
Actually, ENT is my favorite of the spinoffs by far. It was the only one which truely embodied the frontier-like spirit in a space exploration setting aboard a starship that the original had, IMO. I believe ENT was a victim of over-saturation of Trek at the time, as well as limited availability on the UPN (Personally, I never had a chance to see it until it was cancelled and available on DVD). I think that, with ENT, “absence has made the heart grow fonder” among many fans who were so unwilling to embrace it before.
I only meant that it was a failure in the same sense that TOS was a failure in its first run—early cancellation. With that said, the magic of the characters can hardly be compared to those in TOS, and I would not expect any eventual transition to the big screen.
Look:
Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith did GREAT at the box office. Was it a darn good film? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Nemesis did TERRIBLY at the box office. It wasn’t complely fan-proof PERFECT, but it was A DANG GOOD MOVIE, nonetheless!
I agree it was just that the general public had gotted tired of Trek. Nowadays, they think Star Trek is geeky and stupid, so anything with the Trek-lable is ignored….
90. Wes
“Give 10 reasons why it was so bad!”
1.) Worf is brought back over from DS9 with no explanation — just so he can get a pimple!
2.) Data as a ‘flotation device’ — one of the lamest and most inexplicable ‘jokes’ since Scotty knocking himself out in STV (Geordi told a story in “Descent part 2″ explaining that Data sank straight to the bottom of a lake and does not float…)
3.) F. Murry Abraham’s talents are squandered in what amounts to an extended cameo
4.) Another corrupt Starfleet Admiral
5.) Gilbert and Sullivan
6.) The styrofoam Baku village
7.) Zero chemistry between Patrick Stewart and whatshername-the-Baku-chick
8.) The Baku homeworld looked like California, the Baku acted like Californian nature-lovin’ new age hippies — even playing hacky-sack! — all written by a Californian who admits he came up with the story one morning while putting on his Rogaine — no lie!
9.) We’ve been here so many times before: duckblind goes bad in “Who Watches the Watchers”, primitive race transported via holodeck recreation to another planet in “Homeward”, Data goes kookoo bananas as if controlled by someone else in “Brothers”, “The Schizoid Man” and “Power Play”, Geordi gets real eyes in “Hide and Q”, everyone gets young and goofy in “Rascals”, Data learns what it means to be human in, well, every Datacentric episode in the series, Picard disobeys orders to protect the underdog in, well, every Picardcentric episode in the series, an obssessed madman will kill the populace of an entire planet to meet his goal in “Generations”, an madman obssessed with immortality will kill as many people neccessary to meet his goal in “The Omega Glory”….
10.) The day is saved when one of the Sona conveniently grows a conscience — no surprise as it was set up clumsily early on (side note: also happened with Dina Meyer’s Romulan Commander in Nemesis)
11.) Data’s emotion chip is ignored
12.) The Sona produce Ketracel-White for the Dominion?? Huh? And the Federation trusts these guys??!
13.) Picard does the mambo (I thought he didn’t dance)
14.) Troi forgets that she’s kissed Riker with a beard several times over the years (Tom Riker, too)
15.) The joystick on the bridge
16.) Jerry Goldsmiths treacle-laden phoned-in soundtrack score
17.) The Baku look exactly like humans
Want me to continue?
- HEY..i’m from ROMANIA and i’m very angry because i can’t watch DS-9 ..Voyager..Stargate Atlantis or the last season of….x-files anywhere..strange isn’t it…?
#95—You can purchase the dvd’s on-line.
I won’t close the book on Star Trek Nemesis entirely until I see the rumored original 3 hour cut of the film, the one that more closely follows Logan’s script. There is plenty of room to include it on the inevitable Blu-Ray release….
Here’s the info on the rumored cut
http://trekweb.com/stories.php?aid=ua31d3V9Nk5hU
#97—You would sit through an extra hour or so of that?
Not me. The book is closed, IMO, and AMC will not be on my television screen during that time, nor would I ever spend a dime on a Nemesis dvd.
But to each his own…
97. Bob Tompkins
I know I’m sounding like the resident Nemesis-basher but I really doubt a longer cut will improve the film. I have a hard time thinking of any films released in longer ‘director’s cuts’ that have ever been better than the theatrical release — accept for the Lord of the Rings films. “Dances With Wolves” director’s cut (an hour longer)? Nope. Theatrical cut is perfect, the longer version is a mess. “Last Emperor”? Gotta go with the theatrical cut. “Natural Born Killers”? Theatrical cut again is better. I recently saw the Richard Donner cut of Superman II and have to say it didn’t really make any improvements. Even “It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World” is much better in the theatrical version than the longer edit. ST:TMP Director’s cut *IS* an improvement — but it’s actually shorter than the previous versions!
I’ve seen the few deleted scenes on the Nemesis DVD and they had little impact on me. It’s difficult to change things like Patrick Stewart’s lazy acting, the gaping plot holes (Oh! Surprise! Shinzon may have just taken over the Romulan Star Empire in a coup but we forgot to mention he has a genetic condition and will die any minute now! Oops!) and the total lack of momentum. If anything, making it longer may make it worse. The never-ending funeral.
#58 - Box office success is a pretty good indicator of what people like, however. And no, Titanic is not the best movie ever, although a lot of teenage girls really liked it. Look at ticket sales and/or adjusted for inflation:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm
90. Wes
“Give 10 reasons why it was so bad!”
1.) Worf is brought back over from DS9 with no explanation — just so he
can get a pimple!
He was on his way from a colony and hitched a ride to see his old friends on Enterprise
2.) Data as a ‘flotation device’ — one of the lamest and most inexplicable ‘jokes’ since Scotty knocking himself out in STV (Geordi told a story in “Descent part 2″ explaining that Data sank straight to the bottom of a lake and does not float…)
After Descent Data decided to create a flotation device, so, it would not ruin his mechanicals
3.) F. Murry Abraham’s talents are squandered in what amounts to an extended cameo
He was in there quite a bit, he was fantastic, along with the other guest stars
4.) Another corrupt Starfleet Admiral
Always a good story!
5.) Gilbert and Sullivan
A little to far, but, it was fun and made sense
6.) The styrofoam Baku village
It did not look like styrofoam, the only thing that looked like styrofoam was the Genesis Planet in Star Trek III!
7.) Zero chemistry between Patrick Stewart and whatshername-the-Baku-chick
That is not what I saw in the movie!
8.) The Baku homeworld looked like California, the Baku acted like Californian nature-lovin’ new age hippies — even playing hacky-sack! — all written by a Californian who admits he came up with the story one morning while putting on his Rogaine — no lie!
So? Every other Trek looks like it was filmed in CA or Nevada!
Arena- Vasquez Rocks
Generations- High Desert
Final Frontier- Yosemete
need I go on?
9.) We’ve been here so many times before: duckblind goes bad in “Who Watches the Watchers”, primitive race transported via holodeck recreation to another planet in “Homeward”, Data goes kookoo bananas as if controlled by someone else in “Brothers”, “The Schizoid Man” and “Power Play”, Geordi gets real eyes in “Hide and Q”, everyone gets young and goofy in “Rascals”, Data learns what it means to be human in, well, every Datacentric episode in the series, Picard disobeys orders to protect the underdog in, well, every Picardcentric episode in the series, an obssessed madman will kill the populace of an entire planet to meet his goal in “Generations”, an madman obssessed with immortality will kill as many people neccessary to meet his goal in “The Omega Glory”….
You can only figure out completly fresh stories so many times, all subsequent movies and episodes will have a little of everything
10.) The day is saved when one of the Sona conveniently grows a conscience — no surprise as it was set up clumsily early on (side note: also happened with Dina Meyer’s Romulan Commander in Nemesis)
And? Finally, Picard’s speeches made a difference!
11.) Data’s emotion chip is ignored
No it isnt, Geordi says that he forgot to take it with him, before they went to hunt for Data
12.) The Sona produce Ketracel-White for the Dominion?? Huh? And the Federation trusts these guys??!
Well, before WWII U.S. industries were selling arms to all sides, as long as they came and picked them up, and it seems to me that the British trusted us after that.
13.) Picard does the mambo (I thought he didn’t dance)
He does not dance in public!
14.) Troi forgets that she’s kissed Riker with a beard several times over the years (Tom Riker, too)
After her run in with that alien in season 7 when she became an old woman, she forgot that she had kissed him with a beard!
15.) The joystick on the bridge
Awesome! the same argument can be made with the reports of cars being in Star Trek 11
16.) Jerry Goldsmiths treacle-laden phoned-in soundtrack score
It was modern for that time and sounds pretty cool unlike the dead scores of other movies
17.) The Baku look exactly like humans
So, do the Klingons and every freakin other race, all of them have 2 arms and 2 legs, only one that did not was 8472
Want me to continue?
Please no! There are plenty of judgements that can be made against Wrath of Khan (which is not my fav. at all) and all of the other films, they should be judged by entertainment value and not all of these little things
“Oh! Surprise! Shinzon may have just taken over the Romulan Star Empire in a coup but we forgot to mention he has a genetic condition and will die any minute now! Oops!)”
Adolf Hitler took power in Germany, when he probably had the begginings of Syphilus, a disease does not stop a madman from taking power
“That’s funny. I have been a Star Trek fan for decades, and don’t recall it ever being in the mainstream. It was always “scarred” by the preconceived notions which prevented it from ever becoming “mainstream””
Check out the years between 1979-1994 when Trek was everywhere, front covers of magazines, interviews on the top news shows, you name it! especially in 1986, 1990/1991 and again in 1993/1994 the cons were filled with ‘regular’ people from 1990-1995 who were fans of TNG Trek was big in the early 1990s and when TNG became popular, the scarring dissappeared, but, as with my argument earlier, people will only follow something as long as it is popular because, most people have group mantality, and the second it is no longer popular, BAMMM! they move to something else.
BAMM.
I’m moving on to something else.
You know, there’s a similar thought expressed by almost everyone here who hated Insurrection and/or Nemesis. That thought is: “I didn’t care about the characters/the character didn’t have the chemistry…”
These critics are the avid fans of TOS who have rejected TNG and the other spin-offs. I seriously doubt that any TNG movie would have been good enough to please them.
They cared so much about the original characters that they were willing to accept or ignore flaws and holes in the first 6 movies. (And yes, the first 6 movies had just as many, if not more, problems in regard to continuity and canon and plot.) Conversely, they were predisposed to be overly critical of the TNG movies.
This is why JJ was so smart in including Nimoy in the new movie. This helps to placate the small but vocal group of fans who won’t accept anything not directly connected to TOS.
“Box office success is a pretty good indicator of what people like”
I agree. But people don’t always like what is good.
#101—As someone who grew up a Trek fan long ago, I have to laugh at the notion that Star Trek was ever part of the “mainstream”…Sorry.
Even at the height of its popularity, Trek fans were no more than a significantly larger than average fan cult. It could have been descibed in the 70’s and 80’s as a “cult phenomenon”, but that’s as close as it ever got to being “mainstream”.
That’s not to say that some of the original films did not create a bit of crossover value (TWOK and TVH), but that hardly made Star Trek “mainstream”.
As many of the vendors at cons will tell you, attendees began to get older in the 90’s, and that trend hasn’t stopped since. Not exactly good for future business. Star Trek’s popularity peeked in the 1980’s, during the successful run of 5 of the 6 original feature films, but even then…it was more for geeks than anyone else. In the late 80’s and early 90’s, it began to take on the persona of a “geeks only club”.
It may have gotten close in the mid-80’s, but “mainstream”? No. Never happened.
#104—-”I agree. But people don’t always like what is good.”
Isn’t that a bit of a contradiction in terms when you are talking about movies?
What determines a good movie if not one that many people like?
Who defines one popular film as good and another popular film as bad?
“Isn’t that a bit of a contradiction in terms when you are talking about movies?”
It depends on if you look at movies as business or art. If movies are a business, then a good movie is one that makes a ton of money, regardless of its artistic merit. If movies are art, then a good movie is one that expresses an artistic point, regardless of its box office haul.
“What determines a good movie if not one that many people like? Who defines one popular film as good and another popular film as bad?”
What determines if a painting or a sculpture is art? Art isn’t really something that can be easily defined.
My point simply is this: you can’t just look at a movie’s box office total to determine the quality of the movie. A movie that made $40 million isn’t automatically better than a movie that made $30 million.
#103—”These critics are the avid fans of TOS who have rejected TNG and the other spin-offs. I seriously doubt that any TNG movie would have been good enough to please them.
They cared so much about the original characters that they were willing to accept or ignore flaws and holes in the first 6 movies. (And yes, the first 6 movies had just as many, if not more, problems in regard to continuity and canon and plot.) Conversely, they were predisposed to be overly critical of the TNG movies.”
In 1987, I anxiously awaited the return of Star Trek to television. It was one of the most exciting things to me at that time. It just disappointed me…the characters (and the lack of depth), the sterility of the era, holodecks, children on the bridge, Klingons in Starfleet, Android officers, and ship’s counselors.
Star Trek was never about every detail fitting neatly into the storyline. That would never have worked for TOS, for obvious reasons. I couldn’t care less about plot holes or continuity errors in the films. Star Trek was always character-driven. Even mediocre stories, assuming they involved the wonderfully iconic TOS-era characters and kept those characters true to form were still pleasing (like TSFS).
No TNG-era film was ever going to be good enough for me…that much is probably true. But it wasn’t just because it wasn’t TOS. I liked much of DS9 and I liked ENT. I just didn’t care for TNG or its characters. I never found them feature film worthy (and apparently, neither did a substantial portion of the other moviegoers, since none of the TNG movies did as well as 5 of the 6 original films once adjusted for inflation).
#107—”My point simply is this: you can’t just look at a movie’s box office total to determine the quality of the movie. A movie that made $40 million isn’t automatically better than a movie that made $30 million.”
Agreed, but how many people pay to see it at the box-office is not the same thing as how many “liked” it. Many of those people may have bought a ticket and been disappointed.
What you said was, “people don’t always like what is good.”
103. AP -
“You know, there’s a similar thought expressed by almost everyone here who hated Insurrection and/or Nemesis. That thought is: “I didn’t care about the characters/the character didn’t have the chemistry…”
These critics are the avid fans of TOS who have rejected TNG and the other spin-offs. I seriously doubt that any TNG movie would have been good enough to please them.”
You’re making a big assumption. Let me clarify something for you. Yes, I hated Insurrection and Nemesis. And yes, I didn’t think the magic was there between the cast in either film. But it was there in First Contact (which I love) and even in Generations (which I think has its merits).
Yes, I am also a diehard TOS fan. *But* I was a huuuuuuuge TNG fan from the moment Encounter at Farpoint aired and never missed a single episode. I *loved* that show. Patrick Stewart was a marvel each and every week. Then I fell in love with DS9. It is still, for my money, the tightest series with the best pay off. VOY didn’t impress as much — in fact it suffered from the same malaise that Insurrection and Nemesis did — just rehashing and rehashing the same old stories to an inferior result.
Like Closetrekker I have found that ENT is my current favorite series because it went back to that original notion — wagontrain to the stars.
You are assuming that I and others who disliked the last couple TNG films are nothing more than 60s relics afraid of anything new. Not true. I disliked those films for the many reasons I’ve given here and elsewhere. They weren’t good movies in my opinion. I can’t imagine anyone liking those films who isn’t already a fan of the type who just accept anything with the Trek label on it no-questions-asked. To me these films were inferior products and as a consumer I’m voicing my dissatisfaction. And I’m not alone. Apparently Paramount was listening cuz the folks responsible for those films aren’t involved in Star Trek anymore.
Nemesis was alright, ok, not brilliant, but alright and entertaining. It did have its cringing moments when i thought “hmm this is abit poor” but it made up for it with decent action, nice character interactions and Romulans for once. Where it failed was with its Director and his obvious naivety. Baird was also not a very easy man to get along with and was ultimately an Editor not a Director… it was a poor choice and he did a mediocre job with some diamonds in the rough. Frakes would have by far been a better choice.
Insurrection was alright too. It had humour and a real Star Trek story, it even felt more ‘Trekish’ than Nemesis. Fantastic space battles (joystick control was pretty sh*t though) Riker and Troi’s romance evolving, a new race, Frakes directing and an alright storyline. It did have its bloopers though, some of the jokes were really corny and campy, Worf always appears for no reason, its not much of a movie more like an extended good episode.
First Contact is EPIC, it has the Borg a fantastic story line, HUGE battle, great music, great character interactions, humour and Worf’s presence doesnt feel fully forced. Overall it was one of the best Star Trek films and a hard act to follow. Even FC had its downfalls though, Cochrane is one of the biggest problems, whenever i watch it i think, “but he was a young man in that TOS episode?” Time travel - getting abit over done, but only a minor issude.
Generations - I really really tried to like this film, but everytime I watched it I just thought…. meh. It had many errors, for example: Scotty and Relics - tells Riker that he bets Jim Kirk himself brought the Enterprise out… hmm he’s dead Monty!!! The Enterprise B’s captain was a dumbass, why would he be in command of a ship called Enterprise… seriously?? Soran: Really rubbish enemy… was just boring and didnt provoke any emotional response, which is what a decent enemy (Khan) does, he just came from no-where. The Nexus - what a load of balls, boring uninspired writing. Kirks gay death - Our hero and the only real captain of the Enterprise, and greatest hero in starfleet dies but falling down a cliff on a broken bridge… oh please, the alternative ending is even worse!! he’s pushed down!! UTTER ARSE WATER!! - the only redeeming feature of this film was the soundtrack and the way it got rid of the D. I think most of this film barely registers as canon.
VI - Great
V - Underated. You have to remember, this film was made on a really low budget and directed by a directing novice. It did a good job, it was fun and entertaining. Sybok was annoying, but it was an interesting concept, Spock had a half brother, great! It showed the lengths that people go to blindly follow faith and then get horribly disappointed - fascinating.
The Final Frontier is death, and searching for god is not a bad storyline, for me its very Trek. This along with the interaction between the big 3 makes this film alright in my eyes. It was a decent effort.
IV - Over-rated!! IMHO - still a great film that shows how stupid we are and how one day our stupidity could end our world as we know it. I just think this film is cheese, but thats my opinion.
III - Great but has you yawning and yurning for some action!!
II - The Best Trek movie, without doubt.
TMP - YAWN, slow, boring but had something strangely compelling about it.
My List of Star Trek Films (From Best to Worst):
1) TWOK
2) First Contact
3) Undiscovered Country
4) Voyage Home
5) Search For Spock
6) Nemesis
7) Insurrection
8) Final Frontier
9 & 10 Equally) Generations/TMP
#97 & 99
The AMC version holds no attraction for me- but, yes, I would sit through an extra hour, for the cameos that were cut- Wesley Crusher & Guinan to name two. I have also read a shooting draft of Logan’s script which was made available on the Internet long before the movie was released, back in the days when security was far too lax. I thought this draft held together much better than the final cut of the movie did. It had all of the deleted scenes from the DVD and much more.
The deleted scenes from Insurrection were very lame [Quark? Quark?] and it goes without saying that longer isn’t necessarily better.
In the case of Nemesis, I just don’t know and I would like to know.
#110—Since we’re doing that again…
1. TWOK—the ST movie gold standard
2. TMP—most like the series, IMO
3. TVH—classic Trek social commentary with well placed humor
4. TSFS—fanboyish for sure, but pays off
5. TUC—nice recovery from STV: The Great Trek Turd Of ‘89
6. FC—best of a mediocre TNG film series
7-10. TFF, INS, GEN, NEM (in no particular order…these are all crap, IMO)
#111—Fair enough.
#99 says: “I recently saw the Richard Donner cut of Superman II and have to say it didn’t really make any improvements. ”
Oh, I disagree mightily here!! The Richard Lester directed version of the film ceased to exist after the Donner version was released. I happen to own both versions on DVD, but since Superman I and II were shot simultaneously I MUCH prefer the Donner version with all the Brando footage of Jor-El.
Those scenes alone make it vastly superior to the Richard Lester theatrical version of the film.
Another film that is superior as the director’s cut is Ridley Scott’s LEGEND. Again, once released on DVD, the theatrical version ceased to exist for me.
Both the theatrical versions of LEGEND and SUPERMAN II are dead to me. To me, the director’s cuts are now the “canon” versions of the films.
Might as well burn the theatrical versions as far as I am concerned. LOL!!!
Anyway, yeah…I’d love to see director’s cuts of STAR TREK V and NEMESIS! As many fans believe, Star Trek V has nowhere to go but up in quality — especially if the visual effects were overhauled.
In my opinion, the FX in Nemesis were fine. I think all the added moments that could be edited into the film are all character moments.
Regarding Nemesis, I count myself as a former Nemesis “hater”. But having watched it again on AMC, I found myself thinking “ya know…it wasn’t that bad. Not great…but CERTAINLY better than Star Trek V!”.
#114—”Not great…but CERTAINLY better than Star Trek V!”.
It doesn’t take much to be better than a turd.
“I MUCH prefer the Donner version with all the Brando footage of Jor-El.”
Absolutely. The more Brando, the better.
Bottom line- By the time of Nemesis, everyone became so Jaded and Judgemental with Trek, because of the 800+ hours to compare it to so, nothing would have pleased them completely.
I am a HUGE TOS fan. I would rather watch TOS than any other Star Trek series. I would love to see the remastered TOS in its “uncut” form on TV. What bothers me is that in syndication, all the episodes have about 8 to 10 minutes of original footage cut out to make room for more commercials. I recently watched the remastered version of “The Trouble With Tribbles” that I had on my DVR. It was cut to pieces. The scene in the bar where Cyrano Jones haggles with the barkeep over the price of the tribbles is totally ruined. It is sliced to the point that it almost makes no sense. Kirk’s argument with Nils Barris at the beginning of the episode is also cut to pieces and Kirk’s first scene with Kiloth is really cut short. It drives me absolutely CRAZY!!!! I have seen every episode of TOS and I notice each and every scene that was cut out of the episodes that are shown on TV. The original versions of the TOS episodes are around 50 minutes long without commercials. The new syndicated versions end up being about 40 to 42 minutes long. That means that between 8 and 10 minutes of action is cut out. And sometimes it seems that the scenes that are cut are completely random. And a lot of the time, they are actually important scenes that are pivotal to the plot. And get this, the different networks cut their episodes differently. I watch TOS on TV Land and the remastered episodes on CBS. I have noticed that sometimes a scene will be cut out of a TVLand episode, but it will be in the CBS episode, or vise versa. It is absolutely rediculous. And I can’t afford the DVD set, so I just have to deal with it. It really sucks bad.
Perhaps we should all move out of our parents basements and “GET A LIFE”!
Lore,
I’m 35 years old, gainfully employed, married to a hottie, own my own home and 5 vehicles, and have two beautiful children (boy - 3yrs old, girl - 23 months), both of whom can name most of the original TOS cast on sight. I don’t know if that is a good thing or not, but I think it’s pretty cool. I don’t live in my parent’s basement, and I have a life. I just like Star Trek. I think that is the case for most of the people who post here. Trekkies (or Trekkers) are not all geeks who wear horn rimmed glasses and pocket protectors. Some of us are actually normal people who have normal lives just like everybody else in the “normal” society. We just love Star Trek. So perhaps it is you who need to “GET A LIFE!”
Since we are doing this again::::
1. Wrath of Kahn
2. Voyage Home
3. Search for Spock
4. First Contact
5. Undiscovered Country
6. The Motion Picture
7. Generations
8. Nemesis
9. Insurrection
10 Final Frontier
After the top 5, the quality varies according to my mood. And ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ would have made a far better movie than anything we actually got with the NextGen movies.
#120—”‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ would have made a far better movie than anything we actually got with the NextGen movies.”
Yes. I couldn’t agree more. I’m by no means a TNG fan of any significance, but that was one of the most interesting Trek stories ever told. I almost felt it was wasted on a TNG episode.
And aside from your feeling about TMP, our opinions of the ranking of ST movies do not vary much…