ST09 Tidbits (Superman Edition): Winona As Jor-El? JJ For Next Superman? + more May 29, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Great Links, Sci-Fi, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
When you saw Winona Ryder’s Amanda in the new Star Trek movie was your first thought about how much she reminded you of Jor-El from Superman The Movie? Well we have her thoughts on that, plus Kevin Smith talking about how Star Trek proves JJ Abrams is the man for the next Superman, plus a scientific look at Krypton Vulcan, and more.
Amanda El?
With the birth of Spock scene cut from the movie, Winona Ryder’s role as Spock’s mother Amanda was reduced to just a couple of scenes and a brief glimpse. In an interview with Empire [via Digital Spy], Ryder says saw her cameo like one in another origin story of a classic character:
I really don’t have much more than a cameo [in Star Trek]. I was [kind] of thinking I’d be like Marlon Brando in Superman. Not that I’d ever compare myself to Brando!
Winona and Marlon with their alien babies – similarities end there
Kevin Smith says Star Trek proves Abrams should do Superman
Speaking of what is next for the man of steel, geeky director Kevin Smith was the first to give Star Trek a review, and he is a big proponent of the movie. Kevin Smith and JJ Abrams are friends and they also have in common that both wrote drafts for a potential Superman reboot before Superman Returnswas given over to Bryan Singer. Now Smith tells MTV that thinks Star Trek proves that JJ should be given another shot at Superman.
Of course there is the whole thing about JJ having a contract with Paramount for feature films and Superman being controlled by Warner Bros, but whatever, sure give JJ another go, but not until after the Star Trek sequel.
[SPOILERS]
Scientist quibbles with Vulcan + more deep thinking
Was the destruction of Vulcan an homage to the destruction of Krypton? OK maybe not but I need some kind o transition to this next tidbit.
Earlier in the month TrekMovie posted a scientific review of the Star Trek movie by Phil Plait of the Bad Astronomy Blog, but it appears he isn’t the only expert giving the new Trek some scrutiny. In a new article for SciFiWire, author and rocket scientist (literally) Wil McCarthy, takes Trek to task over the implosion. His main beef seems to be the speed at which the planet sucks itself into a black hole, noting:
Even if you drop a bomb or fire a death ray powerful enough to reduce a whole planet to rubble, you still have the problem of gravity; that rubble is going to stay where it is, or at worst, fly apart and then fall back together again. The resulting planet would be loose rather than solid—picture a pile of sand or a dump truck full of gravel—but it would still be round, it would still have gravity, and you could still orbit your spaceship around it.
McCarthy concludes that the result of the black hole would also create a large debris cloud and ring system, and he adds this morbid bit of analysis:
And here’s the funny part: some of the debris in that ring might be living people. Close to the event horizon the tidal stresses are enough to tear a person apart into component atoms, but a hundred kilometers farther out, the stresses would be felt but would not be lethal. Such a disaster would be a rough ride indeed, but anyone wearing a spacesuit, or holed up in a submarine, or trapped in a bank vault or an underground military bunker, would have a small but possibly nonzero chance of surviving.
Wonder if any Vulcans survived by ducking into refrigerators at the last second (caption supplied by TM reader Edward O’Connor)
And that isn’t the only deep thinking that the new Star Trek is inspiring, here are some more new articles taking a close look at the Star Trek movie and franchise and how it relates to religion and politics:
- io9 asks: Is Star Trek a religion?
- Counterpunch: Star Trek and the continuing mission of American Imperialism
- CNN: Why our ‘amazing’ science fiction future fizzled
Well that’s it for the last tidbits of the week. TrekMovie wishes you all a great weekend. And we have some interesting ST09 stories lined up for Saturday and Sunday, so you’all come back now.
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Comments»
The link to the Counterpunch article seems to be broken, Anthony. Great predictions! I agree!
Ooops! Frak! Wrong article for the “great predictions” bit. My bad, was referring to this weekend’s predictions. As far as the Vulcan thing goes, the actual science is as Spock would say “fascinating,” but let’s get real here, it’s just a movie and as a writer and filmmaker myself, I will admit to the oft used creative license. But let’s be honest, the Vulcan destruction wouldn’t have been as cool or powerful in reality.
JJ would be AMAZING for Superman, even if they just went with his script and offered him a consultant role. I would love to see a Superman movie as exciting as Star Trek 2009!
I think they should completely reboot as per the script, but still feature Brandon Routh and maybe even Erica Durance (Smallville), as they have proven themselves as Clark and Lois.
> Kevin Smith and JJ Abrams are friends and they also have in
> common that both wrote drafts for a potential Superman reboot
> before Superman Begins was given over to Bryan Singer.
Superman Begins?
all those franchise reboots start to blend together for me
Actually, Superman Begins would be an ideal name for a reboot, now that I think about it!
Superman Returns Again and Begins Again. Coming Summer 2012!
Superman: REdBOOTED.
Winona is a goddess, one of the very few Hollywood has ever seen.
@6.
Except that Batman already claimed a title with ‘Begins” in it, and he’d hate to have to kick Superman’s arse…again…
Cause Batman’s not a very nice guy. That’s how he rolls.
Love how the scientist accepts that a black hole could be dropped into a planet with red matter (and Vulcan exists) but that the shape is wrong…
I wonder if any Vulcans survived by ducking into refrigerators at the last second…
Since I’m here, can I put in a shameless plug for another movie? I’m sure this not the proper forum, or even the proper site, but whatever. We’re all sci-fi fans here, I assume. The movie is “Moon”, starring Sam Rockwell and directed by Duncan Jones (aka Zowie Bowie, son of David Bowie) I’ve seem the trailer for this film, and it looks incredible. It has received rave reviews and great buzz. Think 2001 crossed with Silent Running crossed with Solaris. It open in select theaters in 2 weeks.
Sorry for that, resume the discussion. ;-)
Geodesic….very clever.
If JJ does reboot Superman… for Rao’s sake, at least get the story right and don’t blow up Krypton’s sun with the planet like in Superman:The Movie. Not only was that completely wrong according to the Superman mythos, it was plain stupid, as it blew up like a chemical explosion.
In the 1980s John Byrne era, Superman revisited his home solar system, to find that (fairly scientifically accurate, according to modern thought) the remnants of Krypton had recollected into a somewhat planetary mass. Granted, it was a big nasty swirling pile of Kryptonite… but hey. You’ll have that.
All that aside, I’m really tired of seeing Krypton blow up. Start the movie in the present day, with Superman established already. We KNOW he came from Krypton, was raised in Smallville, yadda yadda… Give us ACTION! How about forgetting about Lex Luthor and go on to the wonderful alien Braniac?
Spock as Superman? Obama as Spock? Whatever happened to someone being themselves, like say… Chuck Norris?
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Boborci!!!
Tell JJ to stay away from the mouldering corpse of Brando and the REALLY, REALLY dead franchise.
Third Batman? Okay. Lesbian Catwoman? Even better? Star Trek/Jetsons Crossover? Well, the fanboys might have problems, but Pixar and ILM can handle the animation.
But God’s Peace! Please tell Abrams to stay away from Kal-El~!
It stinks of Space Hippies in Kansas, baby….
We Reach!
I wonder if any Vulcans survived by ducking into refrigerators at the last second…
You don’t get it. Spielberg’s doing the next movie. That’s how T’Pring survives.
RE: fridge
that was great…I am stealing that for the caption of the photo!
The Fortress of Solitude would actually be a Budweiser Brewery…lol
sorry
couldnt resist :)
Superman: I Still Know What You Did Two Summers Ago!
fom the text of the article
“create a large debris could and ring system”
huh?
The next Superman movie should star Tom Welling, end of story.
I’d prefer a ‘reboot’ with the same cast from Superman Returns, just a better story and for God’s sake, get back the original red and blue costume, not that muted brown and gray crap that Routh wore in Returns.
#21 “create a large debris field and ring system”
Does that help?
Although I think he meant “cloud”. It’s just that “field” is the more accurate scientific term. A cloud is droplets of liquid suspended in a gas.
#22/23 I’d love Tom Welling as Superman, too. Routh wasn’t convincing. Welling in the suit would be fascinating, as all these years in Smallville, that’s been the “no fly zone”.
A thirty-something Superman that assumes just as Jorg suggests in #15 is a great way to go. Let it seem just like Star Trek did in 1966, as if this crew has been together a few years, doing what they do. A world where the Daily Planet is like USA Today, and Clark Kent and Lois Lane are international reporters and it has all the fun of the best years of the comic books. That would be *fun*, which Superman hasn’t been. Superman was an origins story movie. Superman II was dark. Superman III was a parody. Superman IV was… worse than a bad Star Trek fan film. Superman-R was the worst remake of Superman, plus the dark of II, plus a lot of IV. Make it fun… and people will fill the seats. In that sense, JJ is a perfect choice… but let Alex, Bob & Damon write it. :)
Re-booting Superman… AGAIN?? What about an Aquaman movie, it’s timely. Global warming, whales washing up on shore, icebergs melting, NOW is the time. Heck, even Man From Atlantis would be cool.
Are there NO new ideas in Hollywood??
Off topic here, but I just read a fascinating article from ten years ago discussing TREK’s problems (ratings slide, fan fatigue, etc).
It is very relevent and for Berman bashers quite a squathing indictment. I agree and disagree with a great deal of the article, but be forewarned it is a lengthy piece.
See accompanying link if interested:
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/29/trek/index.html
#13 Right on- MOON is a cool as heck movie for any serious scifi fan.
> 11. Jim Cude – May 29, 2009
> Love how the scientist accepts that a black hole could be dropped into a
> planet with red matter (and Vulcan exists) but that the shape is wrong…
Love how any scientist has the temerity to claim that they know what a planet with a instantaneously-formed black hole at the center would do.
Someone just wanted to see their name in print.
I mean really….
“Even if you drop a bomb or fire a death ray powerful enough to reduce a whole planet to rubble, you still have the problem of gravity; that rubble is going to stay where it is, or at worst, fly apart and then fall back together again.”
No bomb. No death ray. And yes, gravity is a problem. But not the gravity of the broken up planet. The gravity he seems to have forgotten completely, the gravity of the freaking singularity at the center of the rubble.
30.
Yeah, that kinda confused me, too. It’s not a bomb, it’s a singularity; wouldn’t that suck the debris into oblivion?
#29
“Love how any scientist has the temerity to claim that they know what a planet with a instantaneously-formed black hole at the center would do.”
so… the mass of the red matter was like 20 grams? What’s the Schwarzschild radius of 20 grams? Like a femptometer? How does 20 extra grams implode a planet? Geezs… Even if it did make a black hole, it wouldn’t have enough mass to affect the surface. It would just vibrate and evaporate… I guess the “red matter” has the ability to create new mass? What is this, Star Trek: The Animated Series episode 8, “The Magicks of Megas-tu” where mass was constantly being created? Or the writers needed a natural phenomena to destroy Romulus, and that meant Spock needed a way to stop it…
So when Spock says the technology needed to artificially create a black hole implies such technology could be used for time travel… first of all that’s science-crap, second does that mean the Vulcan Science Directorate has been using time-travel? no wonder they keep denying it… hmmm… where is Daniels from again?
funny article….yet what makes it more interesting is that in the “countdown” comic Spock addresses the Romulan senate…with a speech that really mirrored Jor-El’s talk at the beginning of Superman:The Movie lol.
As much as I love Lost and Trek, JJ’s story ideas for “Superman: Flyby” (that was to be directed by McG!) sounded horrendous, even worse than Smallville’s alternate Super-verse.
What I know of JJs planned Superman Reboot from a few years ago, it was terrible. It totally f…. up the whole character and mythology.
Why is JJ so keen of changing everything that defined our culture?
NO!!! DO NOT GIVE SUPERMAN TO ABRAMS.
Here is his script for superman a few years back.
http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/29/st09-tidbits-superman-edition-winona-as-jor-el-jj-for-next-superman-more/
I never read a script that was so dumb and horrible to a character and it’s mythology (except his Trek movie.) Man, he’s already screwed up one great universe, don’t let him screw superman’s too.
@35
I have no idea, he screwed Trek pretty good.
WAIT SORRY SORRY… HERE IS THE SCRIPT…
http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=13350
Thank you for the link to the article on Counterpunch. Whoever says the movie lacked the thought provoking ideas from the series really should go reading this. What makes it thought provoking is just not as school child obvious as it was in the series.
Maybe vulcan’s matter travelled in time as well.
This black holes seem to work a lot like standard Romulan spacial singularities (I mean, in a diferent way each time).
WTF??? I was just telling someone earlier today that JJ would be PERFECT for Superman!!!!!!!!
#36+37
I agree completely! Funny, months ago I posted here about the Abrams spec script for Superman and how it was really bad, only to have Bob Orci himself post back that he thought it was pretty good!
What kind of ego must a person (Abrams) have to want to go back and change all the established mythology in iconic stories about our heroes???
Keep Abrams away from Superman!
I found a name for new Superman movie:
“Superman: Reboot Of The Reboot”
Who knows… maybe our sassy Tuvok hid himself in a refrigerator.
The stunt casting in Superman worked. Not many of those things have worked since then. In fact, Marlon’s ’stardom’ was a much bigger factor than his acting in that role. imho
At least JJ wouldn’t try to make Superman non-American, Christ-ish, and gay (at least as regards to his costume.) Sorry, but that’s exactly what they did in Superman Returns and it hurt the character terribly.
44: The costume you refer to as gay has been Superman’s costume from 1938 on (with slight modifications and a brief interruption). Without it he’s not the Superman icon.
Superman is Warner Bros?
Is JJ tied into Paramount, or is he a free agent…?
I’m not a fan of reboot mania raging in Hollywood. But I think Superman FINALLY deserves a decent cineastic treatment, therefore I am for a reboot.
The problem is that they’ll have to match up Superman against his prime adversary in a first reboot movie, which would be… oh no, not Lex Luthor again!
In five Superman movies we have seen just two of his classic comicbook foes, Lex Luthor (four times) and General Zod & gang (once). This is one of the greatest letdowns of the Superman movie run! (Well, III and IV were nothing but letdowns.)
Bring on Brainiac!!
Sorry,…not interested in anything Kevin Smith has to say or recommends.
and
11
You’re not the Jim Cude I know who plays tuba and I helped get out of a hotel in France? Find it strange that there would be another Jim Cude in this world. And even stranger that you’re into Star Trek. Never knew that about you in college.
45. Somehow fabric now has a sexual orientation. Gay rights have come a long way.
JJ dropped the (red) ball with Trek, don’t let him near Superman.
#39
“This black holes seem to work a lot like standard Romulan spacial singularities (I mean, in a diferent way each time).”
The artificial singularities used by the Romulans in the TNG era did not implode planets… or ships… which is consistent with the way in which a real artificial singularity would behave. The trouble with a real artificial singularity is manipulating it, i.e. how do you take it along with you for your ride?
…As my aerospace department head said last night at a party concerning the space elevator “the principle of the conservation of energy is telling you this is a stupid idea.”
#44, 45
His character was always “Christ-ish,” and his costume was always gay. Now the un-American part, I don’t know…
If they do a Superman redo, let’s leave the kids from Smallville far, far away. Otherwise it’ll turn into ‘Superman’s Creek’. Routh was perfect, he just wasn’t given enough to do (and Kate Bosworth was a major miscast).
I’m always entertained when the ’science’ of Star Trek is critcised. As if it ever held up under close scrutiny.
Actually, isn’t Brandon Routh related to Bob Orci? Bob, get him in the next Trek as a Vulcan. Stonn or something. He’d be perfect.
#44
As far as I know, Superman was always from the planet Krypton, and as such he was always ‘non-American’.
Kevin Smith is an idiot. His script for Superman sucked, and so did JJ Abrams script for Superman. One had polar bears and giant spiders (and yeah, Smith tried to blame that on the producer), the other had CIA Agent Lex Luthor who reveals himself as Kryptonian and a Krypton that isn’t destroyed.
What Bryan Singer did is MUCH, MUCH better than what those two would have come up with. And I think that explains why Smith doesn’t like Superman Returns. Why would he be any different than the non-hollywood-working geek who loves Star Trek so much and has written his own fan fiction that – from his own POV – is much better than what Abrams did to Star Trek? Just because he did it by contract and got pay for it? Nah, geeks are all alike.
as for a Superman project involving Abrams I think not – hope not. I’ve decided I’m not a fan of the man or his work.
Whoever does the next one however, I hope they get rid of the metrosexual, teenie weenie tights of the last movie.
Dude, it’s superman. A guy with a cape and tights, for more than 50 years.
56
Tights, yes. Cut as low as Robert Plant’s jeans from a 1973 Zeppelin concert – no. They’re supposed to be functional. Not stage presence, ‘girls all lookin’ at my youthful goods’ unfuncionality.
http://members.tripod.com/cariart/Superman4large.jpg
Yeah, so different.
#53 & #56 Totally agree! Not gay, and Not American.
On the other hand, Abrams should NEVER go ANYWHERE near Superman. And the only reason I’m not having a fit about him being involved with Star Trek is because he brought it back and didn’t totally destroy canon.
And so functional. ;-)
Not that I don’t like the ST09. I think it’s great, except for Romulus being blown up in the prime timeline. Oh, and the engine room and the glaring, flaring, lights constantly. And Abrams constant reiteration of “I’m NOT a Trekkie. I like Star Wars instead.”
“Truth, justice, and all that good stuff”
No American flag anywhere in the film.
Briefs that make Sting’s Dune outfit look macho.
I stand by my statements.
#36—”NO!!! DO NOT GIVE SUPERMAN TO ABRAMS.
Here is his script for superman a few years back.”
Key part being—”a few years back”.
Even Abrams himself has acknowledged that it was a bad idea. I suppose you’ve never had one of those…
I don’t think that any new Superman film could outdo the 1978 version. Superman doesn’t need another cinematic “origin story”. A fantastic one already exists. But without retelling his origin story, is it even that compelling as a potential feature film?
#57—”Cut as low as Robert Plant’s jeans from a 1973 Zeppelin concert – no. ”
Lol.
Perhaps he is looking for Lois to squeeze his lemon ’til the juice…well, you know.
52:
“Star Trek XII: The Wrath of Stonn”
Oh, Dear.
If the reporting in the entertaining book, “Superman Versus Hollywood” by Jake Rossen is accurate … Bryan Singer’s Superman movie was a blessing. And I didn’t enjoy the movie much. It’s one of the few superhero flicks I don’t own on DVD. Every other attempt to revive Superman on the silver screen that was considered in the ’90s and Oughts would have been an unmitigated horror — including JJ Abrams’ version.
I don’t know why rebooters don’t accept the generally true dictum that failure is directly proportional to the amount of deviation from what made the original worth revisiting.
Scott B. out.
#66—-”After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.” —- :)
The ONLY villian for the next Superman movie is BRAINIAC! If they bring Luthor back again I will lose my lunch!
Please, nobody pay attention to Kevin Smith. He hasn’t made a good movie since the first Clerks.
It’s official….$200.3 million domestic!!!!!….right under 300 million world total!!
250 million is next!!!! everyone make it so!!! \V/
#59
“… didn’t totally destroy canon”
In your canon, what happened to Vulcan?
71. CAPT KRUNCH – wrote:
It’s official….$200.3 million domestic!!!!!….right under 300 million world total!!
250 million is next!!!! everyone make it so!!! \V/
I don’t think its official as BOM indicates it as an estimate. But it’s probably close. Speaking of close, everybody needs to buy more tickets if they want to keep Angels and Demons out of the number 5 spot. Trek is showing in fewer theatres and A&D is estimated to be less than $250,000 behind it. Trek will cross $300M worldwide this weekend so no worries there.
I am a little surprised Drag Me To Hell beat Terminator though and Night of the Museum did so well against UP.
72 – RE: Abrams not totally destroying Canon.
In STAR TREK’s Canon, Vulcan in the Prime Universe exists long into the 24th Century, and it’s eventual fate has not actually been determined.
In the Alternate Universe created when Nero came back in time via Black Hole to Stardate 2233.04, Vulcan was destroyed by the Black Hole created by detonating Red Matter in Vulcan’s core by Nero and the crew of the Narada.
In short, Vulcan has 2 fates we know of.
I liked superman returns, it was so faithful to the old films, i think the problem is that all the good story ideas have been used up, another dilemma is that everytime you have villans fighting superman on earth, it looks like a rehash of superman 2 or worse yet, like superman 3, I think the reason why there is no sequel to superman returns is that an original and exciting story needs to be found.
my idea is that an new powerful alien being or race attacks earth.
also winnona would make a good superman mom, but it would be like her role in star trek, wonderful mom who dies when her planet is destroyed. (sigh)
#70: “Please, nobody pay attention to Kevin Smith. He hasn’t made a good movie since the first Clerks.”
I disagree. Loved “Dogma.”
Really am laughing at all these comments about Superman’s tightie’s. If anyone can get gay out red and blue tights have too many issues to even begin taking seriously. You do know 1) we are talking about a comic book character? and 2) like TREK, it is just a movie(s).
Oh my God, they’re going to turn Krypton into a brewery!
- Let’s face it..Spock-El is great…!!!
75: Let Superman fight Brainiac in outer space.
I can also imagine Winona Ryder as Lois Lane.
Isn’t Brainiac Mr. Spock?
ok, this is simple… The black whole wasn’t a normal black hole.. IT also had a time travel element with it. So the a large debris & rubble that fell into the center of the black whole. came out in a ring system on the other side in a different time. So there for you can say it happend. but in another time not in this time on this side of the black whole. Duhh. SAME as Nero’s ship at the end of the movie. You see his ship get sucked into the massive black / time travel whole. And star breaking apart. But i bet on the other side Nero surrived in an escape pod. And is plotting his return .. Ahh ( EVIL LAUGH )
#72—”In your canon, what happened to Vulcan?”
It isn’t different canon. Vulcan survived to about 8 years after the events depicted in NEM, and then Nero came back in time to the year 2233, destroying Vulcan in 2258. The notion that an alternate timeline can be created as a result of interference with the past is in itself canon, as has been since the very first season of TOS. It is for this reason that Star Trek “canon” is inherently not restricted to linear guidelines. But it isn’t “destroying canon”. Everything depicted from ENT-NEM happened. It just happened before the (quite canonical) timeline incursion…and I have the dvd’s to prove it.
#74,
In ST:TOS “City on the Edge of Forever” and “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, ST:TNG “Time’s Arrow” it was established that time travel retains its effects on the “current” timeline, in other words, there are not multiple time lines unless you are protected by a local subspace discriminator, as in episodes ST:TNG “Timescape”, ST:VOY “Year of Hell”, or immersed in the temporal vortex, as in ST: First Contact.
This new method of time travel in which new timelines are created by time travel is new to Trek.
What happened to the old parallel universes that the transporter can access??
Also ST:TNG “Yesterday’s Enterprise” in which Guinan is able to detect the errors of the timeline, and when Tasha returned, she ended up in the main timeline, not a separate one…
Also ST:The Animated Series “Yesteryear” in which interference with the Guardian of Forever accidentally deleted Spock. Spock didn’t return to his timeline, he repaired the one he was in.
76
I never said gay. I said metrosexual. And you have to admit the latest incarnation of the suit was pretty GQ filler add material.
LMAO at all the “his briefs were cut too low” remarks. Yeah, so low you could almost see his pubes.
Wait a minute, no you couldn’t. Because HE WAS WEARING A FULL BODY SUIT. Like he always has, lol.
Did it make you look at his meat & potatoes more than you were comfy with? Did your naughty parts tingle? Then that’s your problem, not the costume.
LOL!
#86,
you know the director of that film was actually homo, right?
#83—”This new method of time travel in which new timelines are created by time travel is new to Trek.”
I agree, except that MWI/QM isn’t actually part of the story. Since when is a writer’s offscreen commentary considered “canon”? As far as I’m concerned, nothing has really changed with regard to Trek’s treatment of time travel. If you do not wish to embrace the MWI/QM retcon supported by the writers—-you do not have to. This was intentionally left ambiguous so as to leave the door open for a more classic interpretation of the effects of time travel in sci-fi.
The difference between scenarios like TCOTEOF and the like vs. ST09 is that it was logical to attempt to repair the timeline, while it certainly wasn’t in this case. In TCOTEOF, for example—-there was nothing to lose by trying. The worst possible outcome (presuming failure to correct the changes) was the status quo. If Kirk and Spock failed, they could simply live out their lives in the (altered) 20th Century. In ST09, if Spock Prime were to attempt such a thing, he would risk making a very bad situation much worse. Not only would he have to prevent Vulcan’s destruction (or the attack upon the USS Kelvin), but he would also have to defeat the villain Nero by recreating basically the same kind of luck and circumstance which allowed Kirk and co. to do so in the altered timeline. And how likely is that? Failure would result in not only the destruction of Vulcan—but Earth and the rest of the planets in the UFP as well (not to mention the likely deaths of those involved in the attempt, precluding any second chance) .Therefore, Spock Prime makes the only “logical” choice, and that is to cut his losses and remain there to help pick up the pieces—-since trading what could be trillions of lives for a small chance of saving billions is a ridiculous gamble.
The risk of an alternate timeline being created as a result of time travel was always there. It is just that—this time—there was no reset button conveniently available (what a concept!), and the story’s ending did not involve a neat little ribbon bow.
#88—”you know the director of that film was actually homo, right?”
What difference does that make? Why would you even make it your business to know that?
88:
That’s offensive.
#75
“Winona would make a good Superman mom, but it would be like her role in Star Trek, wonderful mom who dies when her planet is destroyed”
Yeah, they like to kill Winona off early in every role she plays before she “steals” the picture!!
#89,
If Spock had used the “jellyfish” to absorb the Hobus star in a blackhole in the past, it would have saved Romulus, Nero never would never have gone back in time, Kirk’s father would still be alive, Vulcan would not have been destroyed, and Pike could continue on as Captain of the Enterprise until he was horribly scathed and incapacitated and left to enjoy a mental projection with Vena… But, no, forget logic, these writers want a clean slate so they can write their own Trek, and that’s what they got.
I don’t know what “MWI/QM” means, but I’m not free to disagree with the writers, because I’m not a Paramount executive, and I have a total of zero power on what stories or plots are written into what Paramount decides to call “Trek.”
Those of us intellectuals used to have a place where we could go to see morality plays unencumbered by the practical; it was called “Star Trek.” But that no longer exists. It’s been sucked into a black hole, and now we’re left with just another crap-science, money-hungry, violence & sex attracting spectacle that’s not Trek at all. Just because they copied dang near every good line in the series, as evidenced by my youtube post, “The future repeats,” doesn’t mean it retains the spirit of Trek, only the symptoms… and eventually those will subside and we’ll be saddened by mistakes like Indie Jones 4, or Episode 1.
Clearly, my opinion does not represent the majority, but if everything tailored to the majority, we would have no diversity, and I thought we used to think that was a good thing.
For once, I’d like to see a movie in which the presence of someone’s father actually helped him, instead of his absence hurting him in some way.
91,
Pardon, which part of what I said was offensive? My accurate description of the person’s sexual orientation, or my use of the pre-fix ‘homo’ to accurately describe the person’s choices?
I suspect instead you have something called “anticipatory shame complex” (which, by the way, is the root of homos*xuality) a condition frequently caused by the failure of a father-figure to be emotionally available in a child’s life. Which causes individuals to feel that others have rejected them when it has not actually been done.
#90,
The posts on this blog regarded Superman and his ‘gay’ outfit. Some posters argued that it was not. I’m simply pointing out that the director of the latest Superman film was indeed self-proclaimed homosexual. I have not proclaimed judgement on such a thing, merely stated it is true.
A bit touchy, are we?
#93—”If Spock had used the “jellyfish” to absorb the Hobus star in a blackhole in the past, it would have saved Romulus, Nero never would never have gone back in time, Kirk’s father would still be alive, Vulcan would not have been destroyed, and Pike could continue on as Captain of the Enterprise until he was horribly scathed and incapacitated and left to enjoy a mental projection with Vena…”
You seem to forget that Spock’s ship (and Nero’s) had been unwillingly sucked into the singularity when he failed to get to the aid of Romulus quickly enough. When he arrived, Nero and the Narada were waiting for him. Just when was he supposed to do what you are suggesting? After the timeline had already been altered? There would be no “past” to travel to.
#94
The fact that you think it’s Nurture, not Nature, proves you don’t know what you’re talking about!
#94,
correction, I’m typing to fast while watching “Night Terrors,” which they really should have named “eyes in the dark.”
Anyway, not “his choices” I apologize for that error. Though I probably cannot explain what I meant without getting shut down by the gay lobby.
#93—”Those of us intellectuals used to have a place where we could go to see morality plays unencumbered by the practical; it was called “Star Trek.”
Intellectuals? How intellectual do you have to be to watch a television show where the “moral of the story” is spelled out for you in the dialogue?
I love Star Trek too, but easy with the pedestal….
“For once, I’d like to see a movie in which the presence of someone’s father actually helped him, instead of his absence hurting him in some way.”
I’m not sure what the difference in the message would be. Both suggest that the presence of a good father is beneficial.
“94. “anticipatory shame complex” (which, by the way, is the root of homos*xuality)”
I didn’t find 88 particularly offensive, but that did the trick. Offensive, and woefully ill-informed.
“I suspect instead you have something called “anticipatory shame complex” (which, by the way, is the root of homos*xuality)…”
And,
“Though I probably cannot explain what I meant without getting shut down by the gay lobby.”
B4, you’re really on a roll here, aren’t you? So much for the “intellectual” bit! Lol.
Here we go…
#102—Warp speed!
B4 was the android who lacked smarts. Makes sense he’d be here saying these things!
Here we are in a thread discussing time travel, and B4 appears to share with us the latest in 1950’s psychology. lol
89. Closettrekker wrote:
The difference between scenarios like TCOTEOF and the like vs. ST09 is that it was logical to attempt to repair the timeline, while it certainly wasn’t in this case. …The risk of an alternate timeline being created as a result of time travel was always there.
I brought this up on another thread, but I don’t think you saw it. While I give you high marks for the “risks are too high” rationalization for avoiding further time travel, there is one further problem that is difficult to account for: The Temporal Police from the 29th and-a-half century!
Despite the fact that they never officially appeared in TOS, doesn’t preclude them from being part of existing canon and taking an interest in the destruction of the Kelvin and Vulcan and restoring the timeline, especially considering this was an accident. So their failure to act must be reconciled somehow as well if this timeline is truly supposed to be a reset from the one which created canon over the last 40 years.
#96,
To clarify: Spock and Kirk beam onto the Narada. Spock takes the Jellyfish. Spock goes to the Hobus star, traps it in a black hole. Spock returns to Vulcan delivers the red matter technology and reminds the Vulcan Science directorate that they must send the ship back in time to achieve the same goal once again, thereby restoring the timeline and all the other good things I said.
Does that help clear things up?
#97
Don’t get me wrong, I think just about nobody understands what’s going on in those cases. It’s frustrating to hear people from both sides tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, especially when I can say without a doubt that what I’m saying is only answer.
So let me clarify my position so that everyone knows what I’m saying:
Same-s*x attractions are not a “sin;” they are not chosen by the individual who has them. (the well-meaning christians hate it when I say that) But same-s*x attractions are not “good” in that they are caused by a psychological trauma. (you know who hates it when I say that) On the contrary, same-s*x attractions are a result of an emotional problem called “anticipatory shame complex” or “syndrome” or some such noun. The bottom line is this: in a person’s youth someone induced undue shame on them. This can take a variety of forms, from molestation, excessive reprimands, physical beatings or what have you. Without an emotionally available role model for the child to confide in and re-confirm the child’s worth & identity, this undue shame will linger as an emotional response even in situations that “feel” similar to the one that caused the initial response. This shame can correct itself by fulfilling the built-in need for acceptance from one’s same-s*x peers, but if it that does not happen by the time the libido develops, the person may attempt to use this new found realm to fill his built-in needs. Since the s*xual experience is always physically pleasurable, it begins a new emotional connection, except that such pleasure was never designed to fulfill the need for acceptance, and it will never do so. The acceptance tank will always run dry from such things; it takes a different kind of intentionally-guided relationship, one filled with respect, and honor, and accomplishment focused in a loving and caring but non-s*xual way to help the person overcome the damage that’s been done. Change is possible, and it is healthy.
This is not my “opinion,” but rather the conclusion reached by experts in the field. I’m merely repeating what fits the available facts.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, that’s not an easy process to go through. I don’t hate, nor even despise, people with same-sex attractions, even when they choose not to change. I accept them for who they are, and love them, and I care about them too much to want them to retain the emotional hurts they’ve endured, especially when I know someone who can help.
But I forget my own conclusion: there is no logical argument that can change someone’s mind on this topic. You just have to love them until they understand what you mean it. That’s done worlds of good for people I know, I hope it can do a world of good for others, too.
It’s too bad that such a simple thing can go unknown by so many people content with their own prejudices, but these days people are rabid to keep folks with opposing viewpoints from communicating. Entire nations rule my comments as “hate” when the reality is love. Meet me, get to know me, you’ll find out I’m real.
#106—”Despite the fact that they never officially appeared in TOS, doesn’t preclude them from being part of existing canon and taking an interest in the destruction of the Kelvin and Vulcan and restoring the timeline, especially considering this was an accident. So their failure to act must be reconciled somehow as well if this timeline is truly supposed to be a reset from the one which created canon over the last 40 years.”
That’s an easy one. They could easily no longer exist!
#104
“B4″ is actually a concatenation of the components of my real, honest-to-God name. Many people here like to use screen names similar to the characters in the show. Since my name was so similar to his, I choose ‘B4.’
And the “attempt to shame” machine begins:
#105 “B4 appears to share with us the latest in 1950’s psychology. lol”
#104 “B4 was the android who lacked smarts. Makes sense he’d be here saying these things!”
#101 “B4, you’re really on a roll here, aren’t you? So much for the “intellectual” bit! Lol”
#100 “I didn’t find 88 particularly offensive, but that did the trick. Offensive, and woefully ill-informed.”
It won’t work.
#108, I believe there was a similar problem faced by crewman Daniels, if that is indeed his real name, in the episode of Enterprise when the Suliban were in all those pods… and captain archer was taken to the future to protect him, but the future had been bombed, and his temporal technology no longer existed.
After that series was over, I just about decided that it was Archer’s contamination and exposure to the future timeline that caused the formation of the Federation in the first place, and so Daniels went back in time to tell the Suliban to do all those other things so they’d have reason to take him to the future… now if any of my theories are crackpot, it’s that one :)
#108. Ah. That’s why you are the unequalled master at this. Of course, they no longer exist. Just the way they showed it could happen in Enterprise, if Daniels had not built a device to get Archer back using stone-knives-and-bearskins. Brilliant!
#107—”Does that help clear things up?”
By the time Kirk and Spock beam aboard the Narada, there have already been 25 years worth of alterations to the timeline. Whether they successfully trap the Hobus star in a black hole sometime during the 23rd Century or not makes no difference at that point—neither to Nero nor the timeline (which has already been altered). They certainly could prevent the future tragedy of Romulus’ destruction, but what is that supposed to mean to this incarnation of Nero? Is he supposed to take comfort in the fact that someone else (born of his own parents) may still marry his wife and create what would have been his family?
The problem is that there is no going back to the late 24th century before Romulus is destroyed, once both the Narada and the Jellyfish have been sucked into the singularity. By the time Spock Prime arrives, that timeline has already been damaged. He can only prevent the destruction of Romulus in the “altered” timeline. He no longer would have access to the “Prime” timeline (of which he and Nero are products).
So, no—that clears absolutely nothing up at all.
Anthony — did you know Orson Scott Card wrote a Star Trek review? He’s rabidly red state, for the most part, these days — but the quality of his writing is undeniable. I think you’d enjoy the article — haven’t seen it posted here.
At his site, “hatrack” dot com under the Uncle Orson Reviews Everything index.
#112.
Exactly. One of the things Orci was trying to avoid with MWI QM was the “paradox”. If you do this you have the paradox that Vulcan is already destroyed and Nero is already there when he has no reason to be there. It doesn’t change the past which we are presently watching in the movie and it doesn’t reset just because it never happened. Trek is wildly inconsistent about time-travel in its canon. There are many on-screen conversations in which characters try to reconcile similar paradoxes and in the end just get headaches.
108:
“This is not my “opinion,” but rather the conclusion reached by experts in the field. I’m merely repeating what fits the available facts.”
There were ‘experts in the field’ in Nazi Germany who determined that some people were more equal than others. What you are saying is that these are conclusions you agree with. Many of us do not, so please cease expounding upon them in this forum.
I
#111—The obvious question is why the “temporal police” don’t forsee the Hobus Star and the events which follow.
But it is never actually made clear that the ENT timeline is the same one at all we know from TOS/TNG. That issue is raised to me the moment those Earth scientists are killed by Borg who may never have been supposed to be there in the first place. In other words, there may be a delayed effect upon the timeline due to events depicted in FC.
At some point, the TP had to have cause to come into existence. Perhaps that altered timeline failed to produce a set of circumstances in which that happens.
#114—”Trek is wildly inconsistent about time-travel in its canon. ”
But that’s not all bad. This has always been a source for reconciling somewhat inconsistent canonical entries. When all else fails, blame it on time travel!
One could even suggest that the timeline our heroes returned to in STIV: TVH was not the same one they left behind to retrieve the whales. After all, Gillian Taylor was not aboard when they left. Something as simple as removing that one person from her natural existence in the timeline could have had significant effects upon the way things play out after the 1980’s, to say nothing of the possibly premature introduction of “transparent aluminum”, McCoy’s gift of a “new kidney”, etc.
But yes—wildly inconsistent.
#107, I think you’ll find that *genuine* experts in the field, as opposed to a certain breed of zealots who are more than happy to proliferate baseless nonsense as science, have found nothing of the sort.
But keep spouting the baseless nonsense if it makes you feel better.
by official I meant it broke 200 million, but I agree: everyone go see it again and again…I don’t expect that A/D will be much more competition and Drag/Hell should go down pretty fast! I expect UP! to stay up for a while!!
#116 – I think it was agreed somewhat unanimously elsewhere in the forum that ENT is already operating on an alternate timeline stemming from First Contact, which is what helps explain the few minor canon violations that exist in ST09 before Nero’s incursion.
Either way, your explanation has to be the correct one in order to reconcile canon with a linear timeline. I would also be in favor of a “Minority Report” view of the way the TP see alterations, i.e. pre-meditated incursions vs. accidental ones like Hobus. I’m sure I’ve seen some episodes which placed similar such limitations on the TP, if not exact.
#115
“There were ‘experts in the field’ in Nazi Germany who determined that some people were more equal than others.”
What I’m actually saying is exactly the opposite, that we are all created equal, no person deserves the undue shame. The socialists in Germany interned and abused persons with same-s*x attractions much the same way they did with folks of the Jewish religion. I state unequivocally, “they should not have done either.”
#115 “What you are saying is that these are conclusions you agree with.”
What I actually said was #107 “I don’t hate, nor even despise, people with same-sex attractions, even when they choose not to change. I accept them for who they are, and love them”
#115 “Many of us do not, so please cease expounding upon them in this forum.”
And this is precisely how I thought you’d react when I said #98 “Though I probably cannot explain what I meant without getting shut down by the gay lobby.”
I find it inappropriate for you to alter my stated positions in your continued “shame machine” attack on my view points, especially from folks who claim to be so tolerant. I find it unreasonable for public forums to squelch disagreements, lest truth an beauty be left in the dust.
And the “shame machine” continues…
#118 “keep spouting the baseless nonsense if it makes you feel better”
#107
Wow, who let the homophobic nutjob in?
#117
“But that’s not all bad. This has always been a source for reconciling somewhat inconsistent canonical entries. When all else fails, blame it on time travel!”
Honestly, I have to agree with you. If it weren’t for the events in ST09, the act of profiting by entertaining would be very hampered! After all, that is Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman and JJ’s true prime directive, to profit from entertaining. I think they could have done that and yet maintain the purpose of Trek: to inspire folks to good actions, to clarify human morality, and intrigue and inspire us to achieve what could be. They may still do that in the next film, but it won’t have the same appeal as ST09. And by “not same,” I don’t mean “bad.”
(Anybody want to argue against my conclusion? That they indeed did focus on the emotional need for a father figure? That the act of sacrificing yourself to save the ones you love is the highest love anyone could ever show? That the act of killing the innocent to rack up an equal tally of dead is unmoral and evil?) I was kind of hoping someone would bring up these points…
#123
When I said “I don’t hate, nor even despise, people with same-sex attractions, even when they choose not to change. I accept them for who they are”
Why do you call me “homophobic?”
the “shame-attack-machine” continues.
#125
You are propagating a patently ridiculous idea about the origin of people’s sexuality. I am gay, and what you said in post 107 does not apply to me in the slightest, or to any other gay men or women that I know. I find it offensive that you think I had to abused in order to be the person I am today.
Keep your silly f***ing opinions to yourself.
B4
warning for trolling
derogatory language about any group is not to be used here
#127
Please clarify, which comments were derogatory?
I found derogatory posts, #’s
123, 115, 126, 118, 101, 104, 105
which were directed ‘at’ me, not ‘by’ me.
“Even Abrams himself has acknowledged that it was a bad idea. I suppose you’ve never had one of those…”
He’s never done any such thing, Closetrekker. Not once, not ever. He’s complained that negative fan response killed his script in preproduction and how much it frustrated him, but at no point has he ever admitted he was wrong. If anything, he’s of the same mind as Tim Burton and his equally disrespectful treatment of the character: “How DARE they not let me see my vision to the end? Don’t they realize how interesting my vision of Superman is?” Abrams learned NOTHING from the experience. He’s as arrogant about it as he’s ever been. No, he has no right whatsoever to touch Superman. He had his chance and used it skin the character alive. And Orci’s endorsement of that script is proof that he’s not only a writer of questionable talent, but he’s ready and willing to betray the heart and soul of an iconic property just to sate his buddies’ egos.
As for the people holding out for Tom Welling to replace Routh, give it up. Welling does not want to be Superman under any circumstances, and is militant about never wearing the suit. Even the SMALLVILLE showrunners and actors have said he refuses to even consider wearing it, and they can’t persuade him otherwise. He won’t do it, end of story.
#22 Tom Welling can’t act. Every character he plays, from Cheaper by the Dozen, to The Fog, to Smallville every character is the same. Tom seems like a nice guy but he has no acting range.
Brandon Routh and Christopher Reeve were able to give two different personalities for Superman and Clark Kent.
I think Brandon Routh should be given another chance to be Superman, you can’t blame him for the weak story in Superman Returns.
#22, 130,
If I remember correctly, personally, I actually kinda of liked Superman Returns. And I agree with 22, Tom Welling should be the next movie superman, and should have been in the last one as well, no offense to Brandon, who also did a superb job. It’s just I had been watching Smallville and expected to see the same actor.
Not seeing Welling in the movie was like if I had been watching ST:TNG and then going to see Star Trek: Generations and having Christopher Plumber play Captain Picard. No offense to Mr. Plumber, but it wouldn’t be what I was expecting, and for that alone it was a let down.
Also, I agree with the folks who say we don’t need more ‘origins’ stories. The trouble with origin stories is that they do well in box offices by attracting people who don’t know the characters are, but they do poorly from a story telling standpoint because they can’t ever move the story forward. So those of us who do care are left watching constantly-changing origin stories and never getting to see some real development. (The kind of development Orci copied & pasted into ST09.)
Unless… I suppose destroying Vulcan moves the story “forward.” Please please can we do “Star Trek” XII: The Search for Vulcan” I’d be willing to pay to see it if we can just restore Vulcan to the timeline. I have an irrational affection for Spock’s home world. And Amanda Sarek. And despite her recent brush with impropriety, I think Winona Ryder did a very good job portraying Amanda Grayson. I think she really got the kind graceful love part in the limited time she was on screen. Anyway…
#62
Superman’s original slogan was to ‘fight for truth and justice’. ‘The American way’ was added later. So if anything, they went back to the original presentation of the character.
As for all the talk about ‘temporal police’…as far as I’m concerned, they were a terrible idea in the first place. JJ BE PRAISED for ridding us of them. ;)
“Unless… I suppose destroying Vulcan moves the story “forward.” Please please can we do “Star Trek” XII: The Search for Vulcan” I’d be willing to pay to see it if we can just restore Vulcan to the timeline. I have an irrational affection for Spock’s home world. And Amanda Sarek. And despite her recent brush with impropriety, I think Winona Ryder did a very good job portraying Amanda Grayson. I think she really got the kind graceful love part in the limited time she was on screen. Anyway…”
Vulcan still exists in the prime universe.
Also, the Mirror Vulcan still exists. (Either in the original Mirror Universe or the alternate reality version of the Mirror Universe. Nero could not have destroyed Vulcan in any mirror universe, since that would be against a mirror Nero’s nature, which presumably would be good.)
92
And yeah that’s a good one Harry.
#134
“Vulcan still exists in the prime universe.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but they’re not going to write any more “prime” universe stories, are they?
(I’m still shuddering from calling the original timeline “prime” since “prime” is the notation I always used for the modified things…)
The temporal police, along with other ridiculous ideas such as the warp speed limit, place undue contstraints on future writers, continuity-wise.
It is things like that which led JJ’s team to wisely erase the old continuity and start over.
JJ’s team did not erase the old continuity, however. The old continuity still exists, according to the one of the two writers of the movie.
@70. Spock – May 30, 2009:
Thank you. Additionally, Kevin Smith’s opinion is less than unbiased due to his friendship with Abrams.
I found the hatrack dot com review to be a lame read. The Counterpunch review was interesting, not that I totally agreed.
I don’t care for Scott Orson Card’s politics, but I loved his review of the new Star Trek movie with one great exception: I didn’t like his portrayal of TOS. His tone struck me as one of carefully cultivated superiority over the original Star Trek, and that to me was not attractive, at all.
However, the rest of his incredibly positive review of Star Trek was great.
138.
Yes, the old continuity still exists. In the original timeline. And on our DVDs.
But the writers are no longer bound by it for any future films, which are in a fresh new continuity, was my point.
My point has always been if they’re crafting characters that are younger than the ones we know – showing stories that hadn’t yet happened – why is it necessary to do away with the timeline we all know? I still say that’s a lazy man’s way out. And a proverbial slap in the face to an older fan base. You can’t convince me otherwise.
@106 – You kind of make the Temporal Police sound like the Guardians of Oa (from Green Lantern) or the Organians. Here’s my take: Because Nero and Spock were accidentally thrown back in time, the Temporal Prime Directive is never created, because Starfleet in the 29th Century (altered timeline) is more concerned with crumbling infrastructure, Klingons off the starboard bow, etc. However, Starfleet in the 29th Century (prime timeline) is unaware of the problems in the alternate timeline, because they can’t detect them (being an alternate timeline and all).
Like Doc Brown said in BTTF 4, “You’re just not thinking fourth-dimensionally.”
OK, as to all the discussion about the comment that JJ should helm the next Superman reboot: Why? Hasn’t that dead horse been beaten enough already? Superman is a cultural icon, to be sure, and will be around after we’re all dead and gone – but frankly, he doesn’t translate well to the big screen (except for the first movie with Brando and Reeve). Sure, today’s CGI could make it look convincing, but it takes a helluva lot more suspension of disbelief to believe a man can fly than it does to believe we can travel at warp speed and have our atoms scrambled through space to stop being somewhere and instantly start being somewhere else. I never got into Superman Returns simply because it wasn’t believable. Give me something that’s believable – even if it’s wrapped in sci-fi clothing. NO amount of tinkering can make Supes believable to a 21st Century audience, IMNSHO.
Now, back to the destruction of Vulcan. Spock (Prime) has already indicated he has found a suitable colony planet for the 10,000 or so remaining Vulcans. So that planet can be renamed Vulcan. Problem solved. (So what if it’s not orbiting 40 Eridani? If Earth were blasted to rubble and the survivors found a new planet, wouldn’t they rename it Earth?) As for the whole prime/alternate timeline thing, we now have two branches of the same tree. One branch leads off into TOS, the movies, TNG, DS9, and VOY. The other leads off into STXI and the still-as-yet-too-be-determined future. (The unfortunate thing is that they still have ENT as the trunk, but oh well…) If someone wants to write more adventures in the “prime” universe, they are free to do so. Same with someone who wants to write stories in the “alternate” universe. The existence of one does not preclude the existence of the other. That’s what sci-fi is all about! Stop trying to make it fit into the nice, neat little boxes that make up what we call reality.
142.
Because all those old fans (of which I include myself, at 41) would nitpick every plot detail they ever wrote, such as, “We know Kirk couldn’t have done such-and-such at that age because 28 years ago, before you the writer were even born, it was established in one line of throwaway dialogue that this other thing happened at that time.”
And because all those old fans would complain about the risk the characters are put in in every movie, saying “We all know Bones lives to at least 137 because it happened on ST:TNG.”
That’s why it’s necessary.
To tell interesting stories with these young characters, and be able to put them in real peril. Otherwise, Trek would continue on the ever-dulling downward spiral it has been on in recent years.
Much as I love the new movie and am happy for it’s success, the idea of JJ coming anywhere near Superman is frightening.
Anyone who has ever read his script for “Superman Lives” knows what an abominable piece of crap it was. Talk about reboot! Krypton doesn’t explode. Luthor himself is Kryptonian…
It’s just a self-important exhibition of either 1) “I’m so much smarter than Superman’s creators that I can destroy the basic concepts behind the character and still make it work” or 2) “I can’t make it good, so I’ll have to make it radically cool to the max! Extreme controversy! That’s the ticket!”
Either way. JJ… stay away from Superman.
143 falcon: “Superman is a cultural icon, to be sure, and will be around after we’re all dead and gone – but frankly, he doesn’t translate well to the big screen (except for the first movie with Brando and Reeve)”
I doubt that it’s Superman who doesn’t translate well to the big screen. I think it’s just that the previous movies (except the first one, I totally agree) ranged from not very good to total trash. Why should that be inherent in the Superman concept? Spiderman, Iron Man, The X-Men translated perfectly to the big screen and they are all not so different from Superman: implausible, fancy-costumed superheroes with special powers (well, or a robotic suit)
IMO you can’t compare the superhero/comic genre to SF.
145 Odkin: Funny, I see it exactly the other way. I hated ST09 but I think that JJ’s approach would suit a superhero movie very well. In any case much better than it suits Trek.
After reading some posts here, I pulled out my copy of Superman Returns, and boy did I enjoy it.
I shed tears with I and II, and I scorn III and IV as the dogshit that they are. But SR has enough great things going for it to justify its existence.
First, it is a no-holds-barred tribute to the Dick Donner films (I & II, pre-Richard Lester), and Brandon Routh pretty much manages to catch that character.
Second, it throws valid emotional baggage in, when we suspect that Lois’s son in Clark’s. And thank God, the script makes her fiance into a good man. Above and beyond the call of duty. Cyclops is there ;-).
Luthor is annoying, and Kevin Spacey, who is great, cannot save the tired concept of that character. as Supes’ cellulloid foil. I join Harry Ballz in calling for Brainiac, or maybe Bizarro, Mr. Mxyzytlpk, or whomever, to replace him.
Bryan Singer would be a worthy director of ST XII. He loves the franchise to death, and would do it justice, for sure.
Yeah, have Brainiac steal Kandor from Krypton and then come after New York of Earth…..that should push a few buttons!
Inconsistent rules here.
I like the one about not typing a word like “homo,” yet you can have the screen name of “Harry Ballz.” heh
Wil McCarthy would definitely be the expert on sucking planets into black holes, considering he did it to most of the solar system in his most recent novel. ;-)
Yes, I, too, was disappointed that Winona Ryder’s Amanda was not more in the movie. Perhaps when the DVD comes out, we shall her extra scenes which were deleted.
Hm. Wil McCarthy’s had a lot of experience with real black holes, has he? Always facinates me how so many think they know so much about things they’ve never personally witnessed or been able to study up close. Theories are one thing, but unless one can provide empirical evidence it’s still just the product of your imagination. One can assume things act/react the same everywhere in the universe. And one would be wrong. Nasa/JPL have already realized to their surprise that things DON’T act the same outside the sun’s influence thanks to recent data from Voyagers 1 & 2. They’ve discovered evidence that suggests the stars aren’t as far away as they once thought. Hmmm…so…not necessarily billions of years old after all?
#150
Actually we shortened it to Ballz after arriving on these shores…..it’s originally Ballzdeep, but we thought that sounded too ethnic!
Agent M@153:
You’re kidding around about those NASA/JPL “realizations” and “evidence” that the stars and universe aren’t as far away and old as previously thought, right?
A team of astronomers is attempting to image the black hole thought to be at the center of our galaxy, Sagitarius A, with a global array of radio telescopes, and may have that image within a couple of years.
#129—”He’s never done any such thing, Closetrekker. Not once, not ever. ”
I think you may have missed one or two interviews. He dismissed it as a mistake. I heard it with my own two ears.
Assuming you don’t take my word for it, the point remains that even good writers can create bad material—especially when you include material that never even makes it into production.
” And Orci’s endorsement of that script is proof that he’s not only a writer of questionable talent, but he’s ready and willing to betray the heart and soul of an iconic property just to sate his buddies’ egos.”
That’s absurd.
And while I’m not sure how any of that “betrays the heart and soul of an iconic property”, I’m even more perplexed by the notion that a writer not displaying as much reverance for an old comic book story indicates “questionable talent”.
The fact that you, I, and any number of fans might disagree with a creative choice says nothing of an individual writer’s “talent”.
Yes, I’m still reading…and yes it is unashamedely, and brashly funny.
I uh….was referring to 154
Why, thank you Mr. Patterson! I appreciate the compliment!
{ “Unless… I suppose destroying Vulcan moves the story “forward.” Please please can we do “Star Trek” XII: The Search for Vulcan” I’d be willing to pay to see it if we can just restore Vulcan to the timeline. I have an irrational affection for Spock’s home world. And Amanda Sarek. And despite her recent brush with impropriety, I think Winona Ryder did a very good job portraying Amanda Grayson. I think she really got the kind graceful love part in the limited time she was on screen. Anyway…”
Vulcan still exists in the prime universe.
Also, the Mirror Vulcan still exists. (Either in the original Mirror Universe or the alternate reality version of the Mirror Universe. Nero could not have destroyed Vulcan in any mirror universe, since that would be against a mirror Nero’s nature, which presumably would be good.)}
IMO, the AOS Amanda still exists, somewhere, but currently is an energy pattern. She was in mid-beam when the Enterprise lost her signature, her energy pattern was sucked into the black hole with the planet Vulcan (which is now broken up). So, there’s no reason that wherever or whenever that black hole comes out to Amanda’s signature pattern could not be picked up by a transporter and beamed somewhere safe (a ship, a station, a planet, etc). Same for any Vulcans who may have been mid-beam when their signatures were lost. Based on what the movie showed us, somewhere these energy patterns and the debris of the planet Vulcan showed up. We just don’t know where or when. Granted, it would be one heck of a coincidence that a transporter would happen to find her signature pattern….however this movie is nothing BUT unlikely coincidences. So, if they wanted to do it, the writers could return her to the AOS timeline as in Mirror, Mirror.