Star Trek Sequel: JJ Abrams (Jokes): We Are Going Gorn! + Lindelof Says Scripting Starts in April January 15, 2010
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Abrams, Star Trek sequel (2013) , trackback
We have a couple of Star Trek sequel updates. While attending the National Board of Review Awards in New York earlier this week, producer JJ Abrams talked a bit about the next Trek, but then started joking about the Gorn. And in a separete interview co-writer Damon Lindelof said that work on the script will begin in April.
Summer 2012: Go Gorn (OK not really)
On the Star Trek sequel Abrams said:
We have some ideas about that, but it is in very early stages, so it is not something we can point to that villain from episode fill in the blank, and say "it’s that guy"
Then MTV’s Reporter Josh Horowitz suggested "it is a Gorn, isn’t it?", to which Abrams (joked)
I have to admit it, the movie is all about Gorns. We just thought it would be fun to Go Gorn!
JJ later suggested:
I can’t believe you didn’t go for ‘Children of the Gorn’.
Glad to see JJ is having some fun with the whole process.
Click the image to play the video at MTV.
UPDATE: Lindelof says Scripting starts in April
And in a group interview (via SciFiWire), Damon Lindelof gave a status update on the script:
We’re going to start probably in April once the writing on Lost is done. Trek will come out in 2012 some point, so we’ve still got a little bit of time, but we’ve been talking about it. We just haven’t been writing.
Of course Paramount has announced that the Star Trek sequel will arrive June 29, 2012. Working backwards from that date, production could start as late as the summer of 2011, so pre-production could start as late as January of next year. So that gives the team plenty of time to finish the script.
Gorn?
Of course when talking about the Gorn, JJ was referring to the famous man-sized lizard from the classic original Star Trek episode "Arena" (the same episode that the Mythbusters recently put to the test).
"I love karaoke night at the Metron City Sushi Bar, now for my rendition of ‘Gorn to be Wild’"
If the Abrams team decide to actually "Go Gorn" they do have a possible head start. Barney Burman and his prosthetic team at Proteus FX created a number of creatures for the Rura Penthe Klingon prison planet, but it all ended up on the cutting room floor. However this behind the scenes video (available on the Star Trek Blu-ray) gives you a glimpse of the re-imagined Gorn.
Gorn designed for "Star Trek" but ended up cut from the film
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Comments»
Gorn? Might work.
That would be oooooonnne ugly Gorn. xD
But would be interesting to see a Gorn cameo, LOL!
i think the gorn would be awsome
Its on ToS and under used in the franchise. Just don’t have him hissing like in the original.
I also think something about andorians would be nice too.
This idea will be here today, but gorn tomorrow.
#3 :: ANDORIANS!! YESSSS.
I would be sooo happy if Andorians had even a small role in the next movie. They’re so adorable with their little antennae that move.
But they can still kick your butt. Ahaaaaa.
“Gorn With The Wind”
#6. Devon “Gorn With The Wind”
A Gorn with wind would have made a much more formidable opponent to Kirk by confusing and overpowering his olfactory senses.
Horta today, Gorn tomorrow.
The TOS version of the Gorn is my fav. All others need not apply.
I’d watch Star Trek: Children of the Gorn! Funny that he thought of that! I want Khan personally so I hope it comes! I also hope Nimoy is back even if Shattner isn’t. We need to know what happens to him in the alternate timeline. More timetravel for the sequel but for ST3 mabye not. Mabye have a turning point for the crew in ST3?!?!
I thought that photo was supposed to be of a re-imagined Salt Vampire, not a Gorn…
#11
I think the ‘reimagined’ Gorn is at 0:03.
Great, now all we need is a sex romp between young Kirk and a female Gorn. As she jumps him she hisses, “I shall be merciful and quick!”
Just don’t feed them pickled cabbage. No one wants “Gorn With The Wind.”
6 – drat! You beat me.
Gorn? No Gorn is no good. Mugatu is the way to go! He’s even got a website – http://bringbackmugatu.com/
Glad they’ve got more money in the budget now. This time, when Kirk is fighting the Gorn on some planet, at least we won’t see a zipper up the Gorn’s back!
Arena is an awesome episode! I hope they go in that direction instead of a Wrath Of Kahn reboot as rumored.
What???? No Tholians?
How about a renegade band of Irish Gorns who go around assimilating different species?
The last thing you hear them hiss as they grab you?
“Sure and be Gorn!”
(runs and hides)
LOL, “Arena” contained probably the most funniest/korniest fight scene ever in Star Trek’s history !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM
I know he’s joking but Gorns could be cool. I mean we really know little about them, so he can make up stuff and the continuity junkies wouldn’t go all crazy over it. Since Kirk’s captain of the “E” years before he’s supposed to be, why not intro the gorn.. Just leave the Metrons out of it and make it interesting.
Oh by the way I know the Gorns were featured in the mirror universe Enterprise episode, but that doesn’t count because he was just a monster, they didn’t get into culture, etc.
I’d be curious how they’d do it, especially the ships and if they would CGI or do an “Avatar” with full motion capture for the characters. Either way, if the story is a good one, then why the hell not!!
A pack of Gorns travel as a circus high-wire act from planet to planet, putting on a show while secretly killing the residents at night…
What’s the name of their circus act?
LEAPIN’ LIZARDS!!
There are so many underrated races that need cameos, at least.
Rigelians. Aenar/Andorians. Tholians (the one in ENT, mirror universe, looked really exotic — thus, cool). Horta (yes, yes, I love that little Horta.. “Pain, PAAAIIINN!”). Everything. All those species that we’ve never met but are surely out there. I say we take advantage of the good CGI and makeup we’ve got. If DS9 could put some good-lookin’ aliens out there, I’m sure Abrams’ team could do three times as well.
Kidding or not, I think doing a story involving the Gorn would be pretty cool.
Ahh, the Gorn-y puns and jokes have begun….
Seriously though, having the Gorn in the next movie would be awesome. As would the Tholians and Andorians. They’re just to cool to ignore.
Another title: “Gorn Baby Gorn”.
Or “Gorn In 60 Seconds”.
The next movie will have the Gorn killing everyone on a planet and the Enterprise must come to stop them before they kill again.
Title of the movie?
DEAD AND GORN!
Gorn to be wild?
no no no
Gorn, ok.
Bamboo cannon, not ok.
Oh, and G for Gorndetta.
Dont joke with me JJ! I really do want the Gorn! : /
Gorn would be great, as long as they don’t look like that horrible make up job that got cut form the film!
Too humanoid in the face!
Take another look at the original; compound eyes & a lizard jaw are cool!!!
A lot of us would love to see the Gorn, if it’s done with the same exciting fun flavour of “Arena”!
The next movie has the Gorn running a brothel offering sexual favors to anyone in the quadrant and the Enterprise must intervene before disease spreads to half the galaxy!
The title of the movie?
COME BLOW YOUR GORN!
I betcha the new sequel will feature an environmental message with a cameo appearance from Al Gorn.
The original gorn from TOS was the best, by the way, I had always assumed that the gorn’s eyes were insect like, so it never needed to blink.
…. Ohhh… he said “villain” again. For crying out loud, did they learn nothing? :/
I think that you guys have covered all of the puns, so I’ll just say that expanding upon the Gorn would be a great idea for the next movie. They don’t even have to be the villian…
Maybe the Gorn and Federation must band together to fight something in space that threatens them.
Okay… I like the Gorn idea… a lot. Yeah… Gorn works. GO GORN!
This might be appropriate: “Gorn On The Fourth Of July”
Also, “Horatio Gornblower”
The next movie has the Gorn travelling back in time to change history in order to conquer the human race.
Title of the movie?
GORN YESTERDAY!
These puns keep getting Gorn-ier and Gorn-ier! LOL!
Id rather Gorn anyday over Khan to be honest. It is something fresh, something thats hardly been touched on in the realm of Trek. I dont like the new look of the Gorn, though. Its too far of a departure from the TOS (and Enterprise) Gorn.
Oh, and the music for the sequel will be done by James GORNER! HA!
Star Trek: The Gourne Identity
Star Trek: The Gourne Supremacy
Star Trek: The Gourne Ultimatum
There, 3 sequels in the can right there. You’re welcome, JJ and crew.
Harry Ballz — even your screen name is a pun — Thank you — I am ROTFLLLL
I liked the Gorn design from TOS. I liked its face better. AND the hiss…
by gosh and by Gorn.
Why does that screenshot of “Arena” look like an American Idol audition?
Simon Cowell started the war with his withering put down of the Gorn’s performance.
Oh, that would be quite possibly the most epic thing ever. The Gorn kicks SO much ass! Although I do agree they need to stick closer to TOS’s design; that other just looks like a boar that’s been through several rounds of nuclear radiation.
49
Thank you! You are more than welcome! :>)
If TREK would want to use a truly terrifying enemy it would be the Gorn… I am sure I am wrong (and anyone please feel free to correct me), but I don’t recall any movies with an intelligent lizards (aside from TREK’s Gorn).
A lot of us fear reptiles and couple that with an intelligent race of lizards who make for a novel idea… and an alien race that doesn’t look all that human… but if the Gorns were to be the antagonist I trust Orci and Kurtzman to come up with a good story.
Now… all that said, I am not sure I want a ‘Star Trek’ movie that is purely us vs. them. I want some philosophical meat to the story… and not just a shoot ‘em up. That has never been the root of TREK’s popularity.
How about ‘Gorn to be Wild?’
or
‘Star Trek – The Wrath of Gorn?’
or
‘The Gorn and the Restless?’
‘When Gorns Collide’
okay, that one was just plain dumb.
:-D
Will we see Chris Pine as Kirk yelling into the communicator:
“Gooooooooooorrrrn!”
And no Harry, we don’t need to see Kirk “Gornicating”
D’OH!
Throw in a few sex scenes with the lizards and, hey, instant GORN-O movie!
LOL!
or for the old 60s girl groups…
‘Gorn to the Chapel.’
‘Let’s Gorn Crazy’
To Kill a Gorningbird’
‘Gorn Expectations’
The next movie will have a religious sect of the Gorn going from world to world, singing their gospel tunes, trying to convert every group they meet.
Title of the movie?
GORN MY WAY!
I’m for William Shatner as resurrected Prime Kirk for the villain!
The resurrection drove him mad, erased some of his memories and only Prime Spock can stop him to fight together with him and the new crew against the “real evil” or something like that.
#38 “…. Ohhh… he said “villain” again. For crying out loud, did they learn nothing? :/”
Gorn are the days when I held much hope for real Trekitude on the big screen
As much as I feel the next film will have to tie in with the destruction of Vulcan and 47 Klingon warbirds – though perhaps to the extent Voyage Home dealt with the previous films rather than a full on follow up like Search for Spock – I’d love to see a Gorn and even the Tholians involved in the story. Maybe a Gorn offers Kirk assistance in unravelling a Klingon conspiracy.
Now there is a challenge for Mr Orci and Mr K… Re-invent the Gorn to be the ferosious Predator-like beast that it was meant to be! Turn the Gorn from a laughing stock to creature to be feared. That would be awesome. If anyone could do it you guys could…
Now, going Gorn would at least be something different and new. But I agree that that new Gorn doesn’t look any better than Enterprise’s CGI-Gorn …
Star Trek: Where No One Has Gorn Before
Personally, I’d love to see The Doomsday machine worked into a film.
The new Star Trek will also tackle issues regarding gay marriage. It will be called “Let Bi-Gorns Be Bi-Gorns.”
^^ Hey folks, after all… J.J. did he say he wanted it to be a modern day Allegorny!
Bad Robot Productions
and J.J. Abrams
Present:
STAR TREK: GORN FREE
The heart-touching story of two Federation conservationists on a lonely planet who find an orphaned Gorn named Elsssssa and raise her to adulthood, only to make the difficult decision to release her to the wild and the life she was called to live.
Featuring the John Barry title song, “Gorn Free,” sung by Andy Williams.
:-)
Gorn or NO Gorn–I don’t care.
I just want Admiral Pike in the script—–Please!
I love GORN ON THE COB!
Kelloggs will pay a fortune for product placement in the next film…..
“Billy, eat your gornflakes!”
@20 Harry ——How about a renegade band of Irish Gorns who go around assimilating different species?
———–
“Erin Gorn Bra”?
They can do a musical scene featuring:
“The Internet is for Gorn”
“Already Gorn,” by the Eagles, anyone?
gosh, it could go-rn forever….
a Don Juan-type Gorn goes throughout the galaxy, loving and leaving women everywhere.
Title?
“A Woman S-GORN-ed!”
The Gorn, sure.
Khan, Noooooooooo!!!
Once you go Gorn. You never go back. Or. Star Trek. Hey I have been Gorned. Or. Star Trek. The Gorn Identity. Ok. May not work.
Super-expand version of Arena ,Testing Kirk , the crew of Enterprise and Humanity place in the Universe.
As long as it’s not Star Trek JJpisode II: Attack of the Gorn(s), I am okay with it.
And while they’re at it, they should have a character from a bronze age planet named Ara-gorn, son of Arathorn.
Personally, I would prefer the next film to be more to be about “Exploring strange new worlds and to boldly go where no one has gone before” and not just another villain plot.
I fully support the proposed Star Trek: Attack of the Gorn script idea…but only if it includes the Bamboo Cannon at some point.
Can’t have Gorn without that Bamboo Cannon…
Nooooo! Am I the only one who thinks rubber-headed human-sized lizards are a cruel joke for a sequel? It would become a gross-looking battleforce like Orcs. Gorn just do not muster much empathy as the antagonist- the way a more humanoid nemesis or even something like the Horta can. I also feel that Khan has been done. Find an intriguing culture from TOS, a force to be reckoned with, or create a new one we never realized the Enterprise crew had encountered- but please NOT gorn.
Star Trek: A New Arena
Star Trek: The Hegemey Strikes Back
Star Trek: Return of the Gorn
Oh, Dagornit! Its hard thinking of Gorn sfilms lol.
What about Battlegorn Galactica
They should find a way to make the zipper on the back of the gorn canon.
We are the Gorn. You will be Gornafied. Resistence is Gorntile
haha this is hilarious.
My favourite was “Gorn With the Wind”
That reimagining of the Gorn is atrocious!! Plus, JJ should go with the Star Trek:Enterprise CGI version of the Gorn, which goes more in line with JJ’s idea of aliens in Trek being truly ALIEN…
@85 Actually, Star Trek: A New Arena sounds like an awesome title and Anthony, why don’t you change the poll to see what fans think of having Gorn as the primary antagonists? From here it seems very positive (even if most of it is joking)
Star Trek: Gorn on the Gob
PLEASE, NO REHASH STORIES!! If tey want to work a Gorn, Andorian, Mugatu into the story, great….but PLEASE, don’t just rehash a TOS story for the new movie!!
Be original with the story.
I’m really happy that the studio is being extremely flexible with the writing team. I’m sure the initial studio target was 2011 and that the team rejected it. I prefer they take their time and produce a great script, instead of writing a bad movie.
So they are definately reusing some villain from the original series. BOORING!!
#92
Hey, I like the sound of that……a Gorn, an Andorian and a Mugatu walk into a bar…
#56. “And no Harry, we don’t need to see Kirk “Gornicating”
I second that, Harry. We don’t want to see Kirk come down with a nasty case of “Gornorrhea” … which might cause yet more of his appendages to swell up to oversized proportions.
On a serious note, has anyone else thought about this…..with Spock Prime having mind-melded with young Kirk in the last movie…if future movies tie in old plots, situations or characters….it could be argued that the drama of the story has been greatly diminished since Kirk already has a “taste” of what happened the first time around. Knowing what his alternate Prime did in a similar situation gives him quite the advantage, doesn’t it?
JJ ought to read “The Gorn Crisis” TNG graphic novel. The artist updated the look while respecting the original Wah Chang design, and you had Gorns Vs. Klingons to boot!
Gorns actually can move fast when not forced to fight on cold planetoids by Metrons. ;)
#97 If you’re Harry Ballz, then where’s Harry Dick? Heh heh!
And oh yeah, “Cali-GORN-ication” by the Red Hot Chilli Peppers!
Good Gorn, man, this thread is Gorning straight to hell! LOL!
Lots of Gorny jokes in here, not to mention a good use of punnery. Reminds me of the Piers Anthony genre, anyone read him?
I’m still against Khan, it would be a waste to try and update the original, which has it all IMHO. Besides, the continuity issue would be a struggle, since Kirk and crew are just starting out and haven’t even encountered the Botany Bay yet. Envision the scene between Khan and Kirk: “Kiiiiirk! With hell’s breath, I defy you. With hates heart, I spit my last breath at you.” Kirk: “Who the f**k are you?” Spock: “Intriguing. He misquoted Melville and seems to know you. Is he related to Nero?”
A nice substitute would be the Mirror-Universe Kirk (villainously played by Shatner) taking on the beta-Kirk (which in a sense would be the reverse of ST:Nemesis). Imagine our young Kirk and crew having to take on a wizened, evil Kirk from the Mirror Universe? Chekov in the Agonizer Chamber? Uhura dressed in an even more skimpy TOS outfit… Spock’s Beard? (a great band, BTW) Shat declaring “The Empire will never die!”
Such a Gorn-u-copia of ideas!
JJ has definitely gorn over the deep end, and gorn to the dark side of the Gorns.
May the Gorns be with you.
a veritable Gornucopia of possibilities for our next movie adventure!
Just to be serious for a moment….
I hope the next ST movie is a bit more ‘grown up’. I mean, JJ and co irritated me a lot on the DVD extras.
They seemed a bit childish at times and I lost count of how many times they used the word ‘cool’.
I have also gone off Zach Quinto a bit too. He fooled around a lot, pulling faces and changing accents in the bloopers. Nimoy always remained dignified in his role, even in the old 60’s bloopers. He was serious about his character are rarely played up like those guys.
Don’t mess with Spock guys.
Maybe a more serious co-director next time will do the trick.
#103.You must not have seen the same TOS bloopers I did. Nimoy wasn’t always that dignified. And their big word wasn’t cool, it was shit. Nimoy said it, Shatner said it, just about everybody said it.
103.
I don’t know why what they do behind the scenes is putting you off so much. I like the idea that they’re a bunch of fans making a really high budjet fan movie. :-D
At last, a GOOD movie with Sleestaks in it.
Obviously, I would love to see the species in the sequel, but I hope it looks more like it did in TOS or on ENT.
The one for the movie that got cut looks awful.
And if it happens, I hope they keep they keep the same sounds with the growls and hisses which was another great part of the character.
They would be smart to use an alien we’ve only seen once like the Gorn!
I actually like the idea of the next movie coming a bit from “left field” and having the gorn as the main “villian” instead of the usual’s like the Klingons or Romulans. If they are done well, it will work and communicate to the movie goer. But I suppose that could be said of any character(s), if its done well, Gorn, Klingon, Khan or whatever, it will work. I also think that despite what many fans think, the next movie should use Transformers 2 as a template ie. more fast paced action, more GGI, everything bigger.
If there’s a Gorn in the next movie, we’ll finally be able to see some Gornication!
It don’t take no wizard to beat a lizard!
Do a Gorn film and make it like predator, that could work.
The title for the sequel: “Star Trek : To Boldly Gorn”.
Man, I just can’t seem to run out of them! LOL!
I would LOVE to see short TOS-based homage viral videos on the ‘net, leading up to the June 2012 movie. But I doubt Paramount is willing to pay everyone involved, ie the original screenwriters.
I like the reimagined Gorn. I just imagine them CGI-ing eyes over the human eyes.
Oh, and #103…you don’t want them to have fun on the set? That leads to poor chemistry among the cast, which leads to crappy movies. Heck, watch the bloopers to Firefly and Serenity, you’ll see that they are all pretty much a family, which is what I saw on the Star Trek behind the scenes.
” 7. Alf, in pog form – January 15, 2010
#6. Devon “Gorn With The Wind”
A Gorn with wind would have made a much more formidable opponent to Kirk by confusing and overpowering his olfactory senses.”
———————————————————————————
Would have caused premature explosion of Kirk’s explosive device :)
How about “Gorn on the Fourth of July” ?
In a strange convergence of realities, the new Enterprise is called to the outpost on Cestus III where the events of the original “Arena” episode are repeated, with the Gorn captain (named ssssssssovic) left dazed and defeated by Kirk’s bamboo canon.
Paralyzed, ssssssssovic returns home to the Gorn Hegemony in disgrace. Scorned and humiliated by his former comrades, he becomes an outcast and gravitates towards a militant and secretive pacifist faction of Gorn who are protesting the endless and costly war with the Klingons. Gradually, sssssssssovic and his fellows gain influence and political power throughout the Hegemony and convince their government to make peace with the Klingons. The Klingons, seeing this as a sign of weakness by the Gorn, launch a massive surprise attack, kill most of their citizens, and force the few survivors to become butlers in the service of the Klingon Chancellor and members of the High Council.
sssssssssovic escapes, together with a ragtag band of survivors, in two El-Aurian cargo ships. On the border of Federation, they encounter the Nexus energy ribbon and broadcast a distress call. Along comes Kirk and the Enterprise to the rescue …………
etc
etc
………….
in the Nexus, alternate-universe Kirk spends idyllic days riding motorcycles, driving vettes off cliffs, and humping orion slave girls. One day, he comes upon a house where a fat old man with a bad wig is burning toast and frying eggs for a skinny bald frenchman with an english accent. Eavesdropping on their conversation, he soon realizes that he’s not in the “real” universe and tags a ride back with them to the Prime Universe. He gets off the Nexus train at 2230 (a few stops before Picard’s exit). Finding himself at Starfleet Headquarters, he convinces Admiral Archer that he’s from the future by listing Archer’s pet names for each of his secret Xindi mistresses (even the aquatic one!). Impressed and convinced by this knowlege, that only a visitor from the future could know, Archer agrees to place a field of cloaked self-replicating mines in space a precise and apparently random location specified by alternate-Kirk.
A short time later, in 2233.04, the Narada emerges at this location from a subspace vortex and before it’s systems and shields recover, it triggers the proximity sensors of the minefield and is blown to rat-sh%t ! The Kelvin arrives on the scene, puzzled by the mystery of floating wreckage and bodies of tatooed Romulans.
Back at Starfleet Headquarters, while munching on a rosy-red apple, alternate-Kirk gradually fades from existence.
And they all lived happily everafter.
cugel, I’m sure a Gorn would be the first to ask, “whatcha been ssssmokin’??”
#113. “Man, I just can’t seem to run out of them! LOL!”
ryanhuyton, I think you just did.
They need to make that mask green and elongate the snout before they can consider it for possible use as a Gorn.
#121 Yeah, I think you’re right. But as I said earlier, they were pretty Gorny to begin with.:-)
Hey, remember how gorny everybody seemed in college? :>)
#124 Look who’s talking, Harry Ballz! LOL!
Me?? Nah, I was a good boy!! I’d be studying while my friends were going out the door to party for the evening. I’d look up from my books and ask, “Gorn out again?”
Cardassians.
#127 Yeah, what about them? :-)
Star Trek II: Gorn To Be Wild
Here’s a couple more:
Where No Man Has Gorn Before
Gorn Again
ReGorn
They could always serve Pop Gorn at the movie.
Or you could just stay home and eat “Gorn Flakes”.
Great, so a Gorn’s father who is involved in an orgy could be referred to as………(wait for it)………….Hot Buttered Pop Gorn!
(you may be groaning, but if you giggled, it’s funny!)
Coming in 2012! Kirk judges an alien wet tee shirt contest in, STAR TREK – Girls Gorn Wild!
134
Followed by the much anticipated sequel:
How Gorn Is My Valley?
Sorry to say it Mr.Ballz, but that kinda sucked LOL!
Ooooh, tough thread! :>)
I suddenly feel like eating Gorn-on-the-cob right about now :-)
The story needs to involve the Triangle, also known as the neutral zone. (These could play in the title as well. ) A massive, 3 way war involving the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans. In the last movie, the Klingons lost 47 ships to a massive Romulan vessel. They will not sit idle from this attack and really could’nt care less that the Narada was from the future…(and excuse to fight is orgasmic to Klingons). The Klingons would attack Romulan colonies and the Federation would intervene… If the art direction team is savvy they would reference the designs used in the FASA games and build on them. I would also strongly recommend that they stop making up weird aliens and use classic aliens from the series and novels. Have an Andorian captain, a Lyran security officer. (Lyrans are a cat-like race…a breif glimpse of them at the end of ST 4) The material is there if they would only capitalize on it. Here me JJ…Make this sequel a no-holds-barred, knock out drag out space battle. It has to be since the Klingons are reeling from the attack!
I personally would be cool with something related to the Gorn or the Tholians – I know they aren’t well-known villains in the public eye but it would be better than another movie about Khan.
Regardless of the movie title, I think the score should be a remix of “Born to Be Wild”, the classic rock anthem made famous by the band Steppenwolf…