Orci & Kurtzman at WGA: Talk Star Trek Canon, Spock/Uhura, Shatner, Sequel, TrekMovie Fans & more | TrekMovie.com
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Orci & Kurtzman at WGA: Talk Star Trek Canon, Spock/Uhura, Shatner, Sequel, TrekMovie Fans & more January 21, 2010

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Conventions/Events/Attractions,Orci/Kurtzman,Star Trek (2009 film),Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

As part of their series of screenings for WGA nominees, there was a showing of the 2009 Star Trek movie at the WGA theater in Beverly Hills on Wednesday night. Following the film there was a panel discussion and Q&A with the writers (and WGA nominees) Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman. The pair covered a lot of old ground, but also discussed some of the hot point topics on the first Star Trek, and they also talked about the sequel too. They also talked about commenters at TrekMovie.com!

 

 

Showing Star Trek to the WGA
The 2009 Star Trek film is the first Trek movie to ever garner a WGA nomination. The screening series is one of the ways the WGA helps their members make the final decision when they vote. Interestingly the vast majority (by a showing of hands) had never seen the film before. It was interesting watching the film with a new audience again and even though they Hollywood insiders, you still got all the laughs and gasps from the audience you would get from general audiences last May. Following the event there was a discussion with the writers and a moderator, as well as some Q&A from the audience. We have excerpts below broken into things about the first movie, plus a few tidbits on the next.


Most of the WGA crowd (with some SAG members too) were there to see "Star Trek" for the first time

Orci and Kurtzman talk fans and the first Star Trek
Much of the discussion for the evening went over familiar ground as most in the audience were seeing Trek for the first time. Plus, being that this was a WGA event, much of the discussion was ‘shop talk’ about their process, making pitches, etc. However, many of the hot button issues of Star Trek came up, here are some key excerpts.

On consulting with the fans (at TrekMovie) and other sources of research:

Orci: Because we were fans, we were so aware of how we would feel if we were fans watching a couple of jerks screwing it all up. So, we very much interacted with fans. One of the websites, we are on TrekMovie.com a lot. We would read the reactions of what fans had to say about what they were learning and very much imagined ourselves being on those forums commenting and wondering what we would be saying if we knew nothing. And the opinions were getting were lining up with what we were doing…if you are a fan you are going to have a top 40 things that you would want to see in Star Trek. We always tried to keep in touch with our inner basic fan and not try and over think it, and we got lot of amazing feedback off the Internet and off of reading fan fiction, and reading the novels. We really immersed ourselves because we knew this is not ours, this is something that we were being asked to take of for a while. And we knew we were taking care of it on behalf of people like us.

On making changes while reconciling canon

Orci: that is why we didn’t agree to do it until we had Leonard Nimoy as the device, both karmically and literally in the story, that changed things. We looked at the movie as a sequel to the surviving member of the Starship Enterprise, who was Spock Prime, as we called him in the script. That story can be seen from Leonard Nimoy’s point of view and as a sequel to the last member of the Enterprise. It wasn’t until we hit that, that we realized ‘that’s is how to reconcile.’ The changes are not just that we ignore everything that happened before. Those things are prologues to this movie. And Leonard Nimoy’s memories and instincts about things–all of Star Trek is filtered through him and the changes come through the actions he finds himself in. So when we came to that conclusion we thought ‘that is how Star Trek would do it.’ Some might call it cheating, but that is one of the great things about Star Trek too.

On Shatner scene (you can read that here)

Kurtzman: At the end of the day we felt that like we really poured our hearts and souls into the dialog, but it just felt like it would end up feeling like a cameo, and everyone was expecting a cameo, and for that reason we ended up going away from it.

Orci: I think it would have worked.

On Spock and Uhura kissing:

Orci: Well you know Oedipally you marry your mother [laughs], and his mother was human. Part of our take was that we were going to harmonize with canon. So in the original series, the first interracial kiss was between William Shatner and Nichelle Nichols, and we thought in this, what is the harmony of that? And the harmony is the first inter-species kiss. It is Uhura and Spock. Well, number one he is younger and not as in control of his emotions. And number two, he has just lost his mother, who he has apologized to for saying "I hope you don’t feel I am rejecting all that it human by perusing Kolinahr," the Vulcan purging of all emotions. So in losing her, showing his emotions to Uhura is a way of keeping her.


Kurtzman and Orci answering questions at WGA

Orci and Kurtzman on the Star Trek sequel (and dream projects)
There wasn’t a lot of talk about the Star Trek sequel at the event, as most of those in attendance were just getting up to speed on the first film, but it did come up. Here are some excerpts.

On the setting of the sequel:

Orci: We would never do a remake….it will be some time in the five year mission. But that is a question. Should we pick them up immediately the next day or should it be later, we are still discussing that.

On how villains are more important in second films than first franchise films

Kurtzman: I think our idea on this is that the first of any series is about them coming together or the formation. I couldn’t really tell you what Jeff Bridges was doing in Iron Man, but it doesn’t matter at all because it is all about Iron Man becoming Iron Man. Whereas I think sequels are very much about the villain. Because while [in the first one] the villain serves to bring the crew together, the second one I think has to be a true challenging of what that family is about. That is why Wrath of Khan was so amazing. Khan tested each one of them and ultimate asked for the ultimately sacrifice, and that is why that movie held up so well.

On the pressure of the sequel versus the first film:

Orci: Frankly I feel more pressure because we were so confident when we came up with the idea of how to bridge canon, and yet free ourselves from canon. Now we have no excuses for anything, now we are free. Now we don’t have the benefit of low expectations.

Kurtzman: It is true, I feel much more pressure.

On what would be their dream project (besides Trek) to be involved with:

Kurtzman: I would like to take a run at Indiana Jones, but that is a pretty closed door, so not sure that is ever going to happen.

Orci: We would like to remake Star Wars [laughs]


Bob and Alex spend extra time after the panel chatting with attendees

More to come
After the event Bob Orci did a video interview for TrekMovie, look for that soon.

Comments

1. StevenPDX - January 21, 2010

Bob and Alex–You’re so clued into the fan base that I think you’ll be successful with your new story. It’s great to know that the franchise is in such good hands. Thanks very much for your efforts and your creativity! (and Bob: I spelled your name right this time!)

2. ryanhuyton - January 21, 2010

Bob and Alex, if you’re reading this, you did a great job with “Star Trek”.
But I “dare you to do better”. :-)

3. nerdinpink - January 21, 2010

Ah boys, I love you.

4. Khan was framed! - January 21, 2010

The sequel should find Spock breaking Uhrua’s heart with his Vulcan discipline & need to preserve his now threatened heritage.

Of course, as her senior officer it is entirely inappropriate to continue a relationship.

There’s a lot of meat there for drama.

We need to see Kirk facing the challenges of command, such as ordering McCoy to do something against his morals as a physician, thus testing their friendship within the command structure.

Perhaps the deployment of a bio-weapon or with holding of medical attention to an enemy.

As for a bad guy, this one should be a war parable using the klingons to personify fundamentalism.

Harry Mudd would be cool too.

Saving part three for man vs. himself through a battle against their Mirror universe counter parts.

5. Imrahil - January 21, 2010

As much as I disliked this movie (and that is a lot), I gotta give these guys props for trying, and for being generally pretty cool.

6. T'Pirk - January 21, 2010

PLEASE don’t continue the S/U relationship, if you can call it that, in the sequel. It’s downgrading on Spock’s character, and it’s sexist to make Uhura merely an object of attraction.

7. garen - January 21, 2010

There’s the word again. “Villain.” I’ve typed it before on here…and I’ll type it again in hopes that a Supreme Court member is reading tonight.

The best villain is an idea. A tragic set of ideals. I cite my favorite Trek film…TUC. In TUC, the villain was prejudice. It was inside of Kirk (and the rest of out heros) It was an internal struggle that ultimately needed to be dealt with inside Kirk’s head. Of course…prejudice as a villain was made even better when given the face and acting talents of Chris Plummer. (with the help of other saboteurs.)

Find an idea…find a belief…and make that the challenge that must be overcome

8. dmduncan - January 21, 2010

“Orci: I think it would have worked.”

Hell yes it would have. At the very least, JJ should have got it on film, and if it still didn’t feel right, okay. But the Shatner ending was TOO good to abstractly decide that it wouldn’t have worked. It should’ve been filmed.

“Orci: We would never do a remake….it will be some time in the five year mission. But that is a question. Should we pick them up immediately the next day or should it be later, we are still discussing that.”

Hmmm. If you pick up the sequel sometime in the 5 year mission, with a bunch of time elapsed, it seems to me you miss some of the dramatic potential suggested in the first movie. I would really like to see Kirk’s character develop in the way that you guys have Shatner/Kirk speak of in the unfilmed scene of ST.09, where he talks about them all being so young and having to earn the respect of the crew. I want to SEE what Kirk does to silence the doubters. Okay, he was given command, but now I want to see him prove he should KEEP it.

And if it’s years later, it’s not impossible, but it seems like it would be harder and less ORGANIC to show that, because they are already in the midst of their explorations and presumably that would have already taken place without us having witnessed it.

9. jas_montreal - January 21, 2010

“it will be some time in the five year mission” -bob

Interesting… I’m presuming the sequel will be set a few years after the first movie. I doubt the Enterprise went off on her 5 year mission right after a immature captain takes the reigns….

Anyways, Sounds like their planning on going with the villain model for the sequel… instead of the nature of the adventure being the villain. I smell Khan all over this sequel ! Its inevitable….. I’m dying to watch Khan again ! It would be soo cool to watch Khan… specially on the 30th anniversary of Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan. 2012 – 1982 = 30 years.

oh yeaaaaaaa !

10. Cygnus-X1 - January 21, 2010

Alex explains his rejection of the Shatner/Kirk part in the movie as, “It would end up feeling like a cameo, and everyone was expecting a cameo….”

To which I ask….

So what?

Is there something intrinsically bad about cameos?

That the scene would have too much resembled a cameo hardly seems like a sound reason for excising it, given all of its potential benefits.

It would be great to get an elaboration on Alex’s rationale.

11. Tori - January 21, 2010

Spock/Uhura is totally great and makes them BOTH more interesting characters. It ties the new Spock to his humanity a very real way that cannot be tossed out lightly. And it says much of Uhura’s openness, her own inner diversity, and the new world humanity lives in. The modern Trek television shows never mentioned any Starfleet fraternity rules so there’s no need to pretend they exist.

It’s just as demeaning, by the way, to assume a woman must be sexless to be professional as it is to say she must live with sexual harassment for her gender. It disappoints me to see so many fans say that on this board.

12. Harry Ballz - January 21, 2010

When the sequel takes place?

Easy………….within the 5 year mission, but leave it indiscriminate……the crew are getting along, but have a few of them still looking at Kirk with a WTF kind of doubt……it could be a month into the mission, it could be a year. Pike’s getting out of that wheelchair could have taken place in either time frame. No need to spell it out. Just give us a great story!

13. dmduncan - January 21, 2010

I’m less than enthusiastic about Spock/Uhura. I understand and accept the reasoning behind doing it for ST.09, but I definitely do not want to see Spock become a pointy eared human.

14. Mel - January 21, 2010

I love the new movie but I hope that the next one will have less plot holes and scientific inaccuracies. I don’t mean that the science must be always right, it is after all a fictional movie about the future, but is should be plausible and believable in the context of the movie.

Then I hope that the sequel will play in a time shortly after the last movie. I like to see the crew get used to their jobs, after all most of them were cadets and have never worked on a starship before. Especially Kirk should have at least slight problems of adjustment to his new job and responsibilities.

The destruction Vulcan and the weakening of the Federation and the military, political, economical changes coming from this shouldn’t be completely ignored. The near genocide of all Vulcans will have left a power vacuum in the Federation itself.

I further hope that the Klingons won’t be the villains. After the destruction of a lot of their ships they should be too weak for an attack on the Federation anyway. Also no Romulans, Khan or other races which aren’t mentioned in TOS, but in TNG, DS9 or VOY. Personally I think the Gorn would be nice. ;-) Or a movie more about internal conflicts in the Federation, a completely new villain race, a strange phenomenon in space threatening lives, and so on. Just be creative and don’t rehash things which have already done to death, mainly Klingons, Romulans, Borg and Khan. And the most important thing you shouldn’t repeat: DON”T THREATEN EARTH DIRECTLY! Earth was already so often nearly destroyed in Star Trek, that is it getting lame and no one ever thought that Earth will really be destroyed to begin with. At least with other planets we can still wonder.

I wouldn’t have a problem with the S/U relationship if I thought those characters have a certain chemistry between them, but sadly they don’t. So their relationship seems forced for me and unbelievable relationships are something which should be avoided. So please break them up. There are a lot of possibilities how to do it which could even be an interesting story point.

15. Rachel - January 21, 2010

I had no idea what Star Trek was until I saw the new movie and became addicted to the show. Now after submersing myself into Star Trek. PLEASE break-up Spock and Uhura!!!! They are not meant for each other it is suppose to be Kirk/Spock, and if you dont want to show them romantically then at least show what a powerful friendship that they have.Besides in the movies it was hinted that Scottie and Uhura were an item. I mean come on in TOS in TSFS Kirk gives up the Enterprise for Spock. That as to be the most ridiculously romantic thing I have ever seen, and I have seen The Notebook. Also, there has to be more McCoy!!

16. Brett Campbell - January 21, 2010

Umm … I think the first inter-species kiss might have been done by Taylor and Zira, forty years ago, in “Planet of the Apes.”

17. S. John Ross - January 21, 2010

#5: Amen.

“I think it would have worked.”

Amen.

“So in the original series, the first interracial kiss was between William Shatner and Nichelle Nichols, and we thought in this, what is the harmony of that? And the harmony is the first inter-species kiss. It is Uhura and Spock.”

Um-wha? :(

The modern “harmony” of a milestone in media history which challenged not only social norms but also the executives in charge of the show … is a kiss between a guy with prosthetic ears and a girl … _without_ prosthetic ears? The Uhura/Spock relationship challenges nothing. Well … nothing except the nervous systems of some of our more delicate fans. If the Spock/Uhura kiss were any safer, it’d be made of NERF.

That said, I’m _not_ one of our more delicate fans [insert your own joke here], and I think Spock and Uhura making out is fun. But if the way we got there is O&K’s idea of “harmonizing” with the Kirk/Uhura kiss, then that illustrates (I think) a vast disconnect between this writing process, and what Star Trek has been, and can be.

[having done my best to express my point respectfully, but hopefully with a sense of genuine WTF]

18. Mel - January 21, 2010

@ 8

“I want to SEE what Kirk does to silence the doubters. Okay, he was given command, but now I want to see him prove he should KEEP it.”

I completely agree with you! ;-)

19. S. John Ross - January 21, 2010

#16: “Umm … I think the first inter-species kiss might have been done by Taylor and Zira, forty years ago, in “Planet of the Apes.””

Or well before, in the pulp-sci-fi that predates Trek. And even if we limit it only to Star Trek, there are probably enough to make a substantial YouTube mashup video ….

20. Mel - January 21, 2010

So not that everyone think I contradict myself: I like to see that Kirk has slight problems to adjust to his new role as a captain but in the end he should of course prove what a great and capable captain he is. ;-)

21. Syn4Ever - January 21, 2010

@15
Your comment made me laugh but I understand it. I never considered what they had as romantic but I did think what they had was a brother type relationship based on pure trust and concern for the others well-being. I think that’s why Im so attached to them, their relationship was like no other and no one has since achieved it.

Im so relieved to see how these two care so much for the series. I can sleep well at night knowing my series is being cared for :)

22. whatever - January 22, 2010

@15. I couldn’t agree more. I look at the way they’re laying out the series right now and I just don’t see how they’re going to get to that great Kirk/Spock friendship.

23. Sarah - January 22, 2010

I just don’t see any connection between Spock and Uhura at all. Everything she does with him looks forced. I was a fan of the original series before i watched the new film, and i loved the film except for that relationship. Frankly i was horrified, as were many other people i know, because it just doesn’t work. For one thing, Spock would never have allowed student-teacher fraternisation, because of the number of problems it would cause. He hasn’t learnt to loosen up yet, as Kirk teaches him to do in TOS. When Uhura touches him, there is no reaction in him. The only ones who inspired an emotional reaction in him are Kirk and Amanda. If he loved Uhura so much that he would risk fraternisation laws, surely she would inspire such a response? I mean, he is half human.
On anothr note though, i want to congratulate the production team, directers, writers, etc on such a brilliant new star trek film. I adored all the rest of it, and it stayed so true to the characters and personalities.

24. Viola - January 22, 2010

Zachary Quinto and Zoe Saldana were so good that their relationship didn’t seem like a problem at the time. But thinking about it, it really up-ends Spock’s entire character arc, did you not realise that? He spends a few years of the series and a movie or three coming to terms with his feelings of friendship for Kirk–that entire span of development, his chief arc through the whole series, is gone if he already has a secure relationship with a human whether it’s Uhura or anyone else. I don’t mind the idea in itself; Uhura is great and Spock is great–but it seems like you’ve written yourself into a corner and are going to have to really work hard to get out of it, especially to keep the focus on Kirk and Spock without relegating Uhura to the sidelines more than you should. I really hope you’ll prove me wrong and do something that stands on its own without depending entirely on being distracted by two good actors.

25. FemaleFan - January 22, 2010

Spock and Uhura just…no. Please. In TOS Uhura’s character was extremely limited because of the culture of the 1960′s (come on, she was basically a space receptionist). Now the new film at least depicts her as an educated, intelligent being (then again, the same can be said for the new Chekov), but I felt everything that had been gained was lost when she was made Spock’s love interest! Why can’t we have a female that is NOT simply there to “stand by her man” AND be a bleeding heart on top of it? TOS Uhura was just as apt at fighting as the boys (as seen in Mirror Mirror) and let’s not forget the original (female) Number One that was the inspiration for Spock! I’m sick of these emotional clingy roles given to female actors. Roddenberry didn’t want those roles in the 1960′s and yet in 2010 there is absolutely no change (not counting the TNG series and beyond).

I also disliked the lack of Spock/McCoy interaction within the film. Those two were the funniest part of TOS and yet they had one scene together.

26. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

Bob and Alex you guys are amazing.

If you do Khan, would be cool to see him integrated into Star Fleet at first, finishing it in not 4 years or 3 but in 6months or less. A scene showing him with his solution to the KM simulation would be wow.

Would be cool to see your version of Indiana Jones/SW.

27. Jaylee - January 22, 2010

I’ll preface this by saying that I loved the movie, I thought the plot engaging and I love the additional depth given to the characters, particularly Kirk. But randomly pairing Spock with Uhura bothered me from a TOS canon perspective that had nothing to do with gender/interracial/Hollywood’s need to appeal to ‘in love with love’ teenie boppers by throwing in random romantic connections (I might add that several Star Trek movies, including the ingenious “Wrath of Khan” did very well *without* it)… okay, so maybe that last part bothered me a little, but just because I’m getting sick of it. If I wanted schmoopy, ill-timed and overly saccharine romance I would have been among the hordes going to see “New Moon”, not in line to see Star Trek the multiple times I did pay to see it.

Fact of the matter was that Spock was betrothed at the age of seven to his intended, T’Pring (see “Amok Time”, season two), this is established cannon. As this betrothal was a Vulcan cultural normality and all Vulcan children were thus bonded, this is one deed that cannot be explained away by an ‘alternate reality’. Spock and Uhura pursuing romantic interest while Spock is engaged resonates suspiciously to me like cheating. A bit troublesome. Even if we were to assume that T’Pring died when Vulcan did, and wasn’t among the survivors, Spock jumping immediately into a relationship with Uhura resonates as kind of… tacky. Yes, we later find out that T’Pring is a bit of an… evil word that rhymes with witch, but at this point in time, for as young as Spock was here, he didn’t know that yet and thus should have considered himself ‘off the market’.

Another case to point. Uhura was romantically paired with Scotty in the TOS movies. Their romance was always done subtlety and not a major point of the plot nor shown through excessive use of tongue, but it was adorable and I loved it. I resent that Star Trek cannon was ignored to throw a bit of romance into a film that really would have been just as fabulous without it. To me the Spock/Uhura scenes seemed kind of… token. Star Trek is better than that. The two of you are excellent writers, you’re better than that.

There are many kinds of love, not all of it involving making out on transporters. The love that those characters, all seven of them, on that crew had for each other was what made Star Trek so endearing, what made it stick in our hearts till this day. Why cheapen that dynamic with a romance instead of focusing on the friendships and bonds that gave the original series its heart?

28. yeti - January 22, 2010

@15

Relationship dynamics aside, the most exciting thing I’ve read is evidence of someone who had no idea what Star Trek was and is now converted.
I think the strongest thing this movie ever did was to alert people to a franchise that let’s be honest was flagging! If the demograph exists you can bet your bottom dollar that new incarnations of Trek may indeed be possible. I wouldn’t even mind a new TV show in the Alt universe, and it’s down to what the writers did.
I think perhaps some scenes that Trek fans have found hard to swallow may have had a positive effect on people unaware of the franchise. Sometimes we gotta shake things up!! I only see the destruction of vulcan as evidence of writers who are not afraid to cut against the grain, and remember these are Trek fans who wouldn;t do something for the sake of giving the finger to the sacred followers. As I mentioned before however the sequel now has endless possibilities and it would be nice to not necessarily have a linear story. Would love to be wondering WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? in the next film along with the crew. Kirk rubbing the scorch marks of the side of the Voyager probe and the realisation of what it was. Now that’s Sci Fi and that for me will always be the TREK!!!

29. Datalore - January 22, 2010

Ha ha fun time had by all that night! Those guys are the real deal, and as down to earth as you can be. It was a fun experience for someone who has seen the movie countless times to sort of “see it again for the first time” with an audience that consisted of 80% new viewers for.
I was lucky enough to be there and to ask a question, and of course give props to Trekmovie.com while I had the floor! (Although Bob brought up Trekmovie as one of his main fan consulting sources pretty much in the first answer he had..) And thanks for giving Datalore a little face time in the last pic, Anthony! I look like a kid who was just saved by Superman!

30. Actually A Career Woman - January 22, 2010

@11: “It’s just as demeaning, by the way, to assume a woman must be sexless to be professional”

Sure, if she’d actually been professional. Instead, she places her superior officer’s (and supposed partner’s) career in jeopardy by flying in the face of fraternization regulations, uses her relationship with a commanding officer to demand a transfer that betters her own career, and leaves her post to question her acting-captain on a direct order.

I wouldn’t mind seeing more of Spock and Uhura…but only if they develop Uhura as a character in her own right first. I wasn’t fond of the way she was portrayed in XI. Loved the rest of it, though.

31. GeekGirl - January 22, 2010

Yes, you are now ‘free from low expectations’. God help you. ;) The thing is, with that comes a responsibility to develop what you’ve started. You don’t have the benefit of a three-season TV series that develops the relationships between the characters before they get onscreen. This Kirk and Spock don’t yet have the relationship that they did–and we know that’s where it’s supposed to go, since Spock Prime, meddling old man that he is, manipulated the heck out of them to push them in that direction. Which was awesome–but there’s still only so much Spock Prime saying ‘this is how things are meant to be’ is going to work. They still have to get there on their own. You have to SHOW them getting there. You have to get to the point where Kirk will blow up the Enterprise because there’s a chance of saving Spock (not that that exact scenario has to happen, but as bad as STIII was, that was heartbreaking and MADE SENSE).

They don’t have the background of having been close at the Academy. They’ve had one successful mission where they trusted each other, but there’s going to be a lot of rocky ground, and you need to cover that with us, the audience, before it rings true. Oh, if you don’t, your fanbase will work around it. It’ll be rewritten all over the internet, and we’ll just say “Well, it’s a starting point, even though it’s pretty weak” instead of “Wow, that was awesome,” and I hope you’d rather aim for the second! We’re Star Trek fans, some of us grew up that way, we’re not going anywhere–but we’re not automatically going to like everything you do, either.

As for cameos–nothing wrong with ‘em. And that scene as it was passed around would have broken a lot of hearts, in a good way!

Spock/Uhura–dear lord, what WERE you thinking? And by the way, you are very confused about the parallels between ‘first actual interracial kiss on US television’ and ‘kiss between people who are totally the same species except that one is pretending to be an alien.’ Zachary Quinto is not actually an alien, Nichelle Nichols actually IS black. The first one broke down barriers and the show took a lot of flack for making it, this just…I mean, okay, you wanted it, but don’t pretend it’s making a big statement. You did it because you knew it would throw people for a loop, and that’s not really an excuse for writing those characters into a corner. You shot yourselves in the leg with that one. As someone else pointed out, Spock was already engaged (or did you reboot all of Vulcan’s culture before blowing it up, too?) and it seems terribly unlike him to be having a relationship with a student. Or a human. Or, frankly, anybody. He’s supposed to GET to that point, during the course of the story–not show up like that at the beginning.

Still, props to you for having come up with a movie that was well-cast, well-acted, a lot of fun, and made us ignore the inconsistencies at least for a while. ;) If you don’t like that we’re picking it apart now–look, it’s Star Trek. What did you expect?

32. Vote_Gary_Mitchell - January 22, 2010

Bob and Alex: I cannot express how much gratitude I had upon seeing the film last May…you were faced with a daunting task, but excelled on so many levels! Thank you!

I was ecstatic when I heard that Christopher Pike was going to be a major character…what a nice nod to the original series, and in particular to the first pilot.

In following this theme, I think the idea of making Gary Mitchell a part of the sequel would be an additional quaint nod, as well as a nice homage to the second pilot…perhaps not a major part, maybe a short scene or two, but his inclusion would solidify to the fans your commitment and respect to Star Trek’s 40+ year history!

I invite you all to view a Facebook Group supporting this notion, and to take a shot at writing your own introductory scene for Gary!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=223712577580

33. Commander Crooner - January 22, 2010

I cannot believe this thread somehow became the Uhura &Spock issue of People magazine!

Seriously, people! They blew up a planet! They sent a Corvette off a cliff! They base-jumped from space! All you can talk about is Spockura!

For shame, SHAME!

P.S. Alex & Bob, you guys did a great job, and the sequel will also be great. I would like to see it occur immediately after the first film ends.
Thank you.

34. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

Gary Mitchell sure looks like Daniel Craig.

35. GeekGirl - January 22, 2010

@33–I suppose we could have dwelled on how ejecting the thing that makes your ship go fast is maybe not the VERY best way of escaping the black hole about to swallow you up, but then we’d have to explain how black holes actually work, and it’s late and there’s TV on, and honestly, we’re used to the cheesy science. Red matter. Got it. Somebody parked the TARDIS in a wormhole or something.

That and I assume the writers already know there is a special place in hell for people who destroy classic Corvettes. ;)

36. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

If these writers do Khan I feel a lot of Trek fans will walk away from these movies.

Am I the only one who feels they are not that great.

Star Trek XI was a fun movie but to me it suffered from plot holes and contrivances large enough for a Galaxy Class starship to fly through.

Brannon Braga, Manny Coto, Ira Behr, Michael Pillar, Ron D Moore are better writers in my opinion,

37. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

Also DC Fontana, Nicholas Meyer.

And I hate these guys scripts for the Transformers movies. So inane

38. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#35

Nobody knows for sure what happened to the corvette, all you see is it falling but never see the impact. Who is to say in a future episode or movie that Kirk or someone somehow saved his fathers corvette via time travel.

Perhaps it was transwarp time beaming, the ability to beam someone or something through space and time. Perhaps this is how they save Vulcan, and USS Kelvin.

39. Daniel - January 22, 2010

I like the movie even better after reading this. The Spock/Uhura stuff makes a lot more sense to me now. I’m still hoping they (Spock & Uhura) are already broken up and over each other in the next movie. Maybe a scene where Spock is talking to a guy, and Uhura comes up and kisses the other guy, and Spock isn’t upset at all. He’s moved on and in full “Vulcan” mode.

So my vote is for having the second movie take place sometime well after the first one ends. Maybe even a year or more.

40. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#36

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you named some great writers but I will go with my friends and wife who was Star Trek neutral until they saw Star Trek 2009. So the litmus test is not just myself and my opinion but the people who finally crossed over and can enjoy Star Trek with me. I loved the fact that they loved it and that made me very happy, for they finally saw the light.

41. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

the Spock and Uhura function did not work for me and I felt the transporter scene did not work for me, felt a bit out of character for Spock.

42. GeekGirl - January 22, 2010

@38 You know, you may be on to something there. ;)

43. Daniel - January 22, 2010

Adding to message #39:

Spock can’t be Spock if he has a girlfriend. That’s why I want to relationship to end. Spock must be lonely and alone in the world to be my “Spock.”

And I want my Spock back!

44. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#41

Spock and Kirk was not friends at that point in the film so the writers felt they needed a outlet for Spock to show his loss, he needed a shoulder to cry on, someone that was female that can show his emotional side beneath the icy cold Vulcan demeanor. I am sure it was merely a device to be used in one movie only. I would hate to see Uhura become counsellor Troi, Zoey is capable of a more wider role.

45. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

ABout canon are they implying that its ok to change canon because Spock is there from our universe.

I thought that they did a parallel universe so that the movie runs as a side to th rest of Trek canon.

Is there an inconsistency I am missing?

46. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

their reasoning for the kissing scene makes sense and I used that theory to get round it because it was so out of character for the real Spock.

47. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

Can I ask are these writers talking about making Spock more emotional due to the destruction of Vulcan in this universe?

If so I hope they don’t it will change the essence of Spock.

48. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#45

I think it was more of a transitional statement, sometime something is easier to digest if you see something familiar and understand how model a become model b.

49. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

48

do you treat it as a parallel universe, I do treat it as a separate universe.

I do prefer what came before

50. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#47

Spock got his moms support for him to through Kulinar.

“Whatever you choose to be you will have a proud mother.”

But now that Spock mom died he may honor her memory by not going through it, then again he knows his mom would feel guilty if he had choose not to do it simply because she died. I think he will go through Kulinar and be the Spock that we all know and love but at the same time, Quinto will add his style to Spock.

51. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#49

I treat it as the ability to view and observe another possible reality, the what ifs in life and the ability to love both. It would be very boring to have them go back and tell a origins story that fit into what was already told, look at the disaster of the SW prequels. Their hands are free and the Human Adventure is just beginning…

52. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

50

all I am saying is they make Spock more human instead of using his logic then it will betray the character

53. T'Racionn - January 22, 2010

The Spock/Uhura thing doesn’t work. I’m sorry, Uhura, but it just doesn’t. Spock would never ever kissed her in front of all the others, despite his loss. And if at all, then he might saw a femal (motherish) friend in her.
It’s just not who Spock is and till the destruction of Vulcan there hasn’t been that many changes in his life line compared to the original one, right? I fail to see the base for that relationship. And please, just beacause she might be sexy would never be reason enough to let a Vulcan fall in love. Focus on the Kirk – Spock friendship as that is what kept the classic ST going for decades. Seems to be a hint how to make things work…

54. Vote_Gary_Mitchell - January 22, 2010

Haha…Daniel Craig IS Gary Mitchell!! It’s uncanny…

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=223712577580

55. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

53

Exactly, that scene I felt betrayed who Spock was, yet these writers are praised as brilliant.

56. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#53 and #55

I think you have to view it as a way to show Spocks loss, I can see why they did it (interracial kiss, outlet for spock to express his emotional loss) and also can see why as original fans it did not make sense or you did not like.

I am certain they will focus on the family and friendship theme more, anyone living on a starship/submarine/office will surely have their ups and downs as a family.

57. raddestnerd - January 22, 2010

I agree w/ #7. My fave ST films are First Contact, then The Undiscovered Country. The Shatner should be made for director’s cut S3D Blu-ray release with Capt Robau’s dissappearing Starfleet insignia on his uniform corrected w/ some CG magic :)

58. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

I know that in this alternate universe it prob makes sense given the circumstances.

But it means the new fans will not be getting the proper versions of these iconic characters.

I do admit that to me already they are not the same characters and that is a shame.

But then character changes is only on gripe I have with the changes that were made in this movie. lol

59. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

so does any one else think they are going to change the thing that made Spock’s character interesting.

I am afraid these writers will take my fav show into a direction I am not going to be totally happy with, but I hope they suprise me and do something great and unique to Trek.

60. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

if they made Spock go more with his human side rather than his vulcan side willl everyone here accept it just because these writers and Abrams do it or will they feel it betrays the character and the reason the character fascinated us in the first place?

61. somethoughts - January 22, 2010

#60

I too also prefer Classic Spock, it is what gives the character depth, but you have to remember the new Spock in Star Trek 2009 is a much rawer and earlier version compared to the one featured in the 60s and the motion pictures. I believe new Spock will evolve more to the one we are used to, the one that is emotionless on the surface and eyes beaming with centuries of knowledge and feelings within that is suppressed.

62. Mel - January 22, 2010

All in all I hope the next movie concentrate more on the Kirk, Spock, McCoy friendship. It was great in TOS to see that three so different personalities could be such good friends and work so well together.

I am all for women equality, but I still hope that Uhura’s role won’t get any bigger than it already is. I think she has about as many scenes as McCoy and this is just wrong. They should concentrate on the big triumvirate and Uhura, Sulu, Chekov, Scotty should stay supporting roles like in TOS.

S/U is detrimental to building that triumvirate. It detract from the Kirk, Spock, McCoy relationship. Less Uhura scenes and more McCoy scenes would be good. And like I already said, Spock and Uhura really lack chemistry in the movie. Everything between them look so forced. So I hope they break them up.

63. Buzz Cagney - January 22, 2010

Good stuff. Guy’s, you are right to be feeling the pressure, but I think most of us have faith in you to do a great job.

64. Buzz Cagney - January 22, 2010

I would add you are gona need a BIG NAME co-star and 3D. But thats a given now isn’t it!

65. nuSpock - January 22, 2010

#16–no, that would’ve been Kirk one one of his many one-night-stands with alien women LOL

66. Adam E - January 22, 2010

At first I wasn’t a fan of the Spock/Uhura thing. But after watching the movie again yesterday, it has grown on me. It will be interesting to see where it goes.

67. nuSpock - January 22, 2010

#52–as many people have said, this is an EARLIER Spock than the one we know from TOS…this is Pike-era Spock, if this was in the Prime TImeline…

and to everyone: since when does Spock having a romance with someone make him ‘not as Vulcan’ as he SHOULD be? After all, this is an earlier Spock, he IS half-human, he just witnessed the loss of his race to a madman, and his FATHER, a FULL VULCAN, married a human, as Sarek himself said in the film TO SPOCK, ‘Because I loved her’…

Vulcans HAVE emotions, they just choose to publicly suppress them…Spock is half-VULCAN, *NOT* and android, like Data or B-4…and even Data flirted with romance a couple times…so CHILL ppl…

and the idea of the film being in the 5 year mission: kinda difficult… since according to the official timeline released in conjunction with Star Trek: Online, covering both timelines, puts the setting of the 5 year mission as beginning in (if I remember correctly) 2266, and the Enterprise-part of the 2009 movie was set in 2258… AN 8-YEAR DIFFERENCE…

more logically, all the new films should be PRIOR to the 5-year mission (which by the way, 5-year missions may not even be in Starfleet assignment protocols in the new timeline), and the final one should LEAD INTO IT…(assuming there will be an official 5-year mission in this timeline)

68. nuSpock - January 22, 2010

…sorry i meant ‘an’, not ‘and’ LOL

SIDE NOTE: The missions, the foes, etc. Kirk and crew in these films should face are the ones which in the Prime Timeline Pike and crew faced…or would’ve faced had the original Cage pilot been accepted by the networks back in the 60s…

69. dielle - January 22, 2010

since they say they read here for fun reaction, I must add mine: please do not listen to those “Spock/Uhura” haters. They just are still struggling with the whole IS AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE thing.

TOS Spock is not New Treck SPOCK and so all the other characters.

To the writers: you’ve done a great job with that relationship. I love the “avoid an appearance of favoritism” scene because is subtle and hint at how their relationship is.
I assure you the one dislike them paired are just more vocal.

No Bros before Hos things, please.

It’s just as demeaning, by the way, to assume a woman must be sexless to be professional as it is to say she must live with sexual harassment for her gender. It disappoints me to see so many fans say that on this board.

This THIS!

70. dielle - January 22, 2010

and I mean “fan” not “fun”. sorry, English is not my native language.

71. Bryan With Pointy Nacelles And Large Disk - January 22, 2010

I think they missed an opportunity while Shatner/Nimoy are still viable to pass the torch in an emotional/loving/hommage fashion.
It could be as simple as the remaining crew attending the funeral of McCoy or Scotty (pre-Generations) and musing about their past and beginnings on how they met. Then go on with the plotted movie with the new cast. Finally wrapping it up with back-slappings and promises to get together, hopefully not over a funeral.
It may seem a simplistic wrap-around, but we Trekkers are very tied to this original crew and should not be dispensed with so easily.
You writers are more savvy than that to make the new cast yours, but hommage to THE ORIGINALs IS required!

72. erizame - January 22, 2010

well there goes the Star Trek sequel for me. No interest in it at all if they change all the setting up they did for the Spock/Uhura romance they did with the DVD commentary (Orci Kurtzman-remember you said they were in love?) now you’re coming with this crap about she’s his mom to him? LAME. If you’re so afraid of these hardcore ST TOS then have it-get rid of S/U in the sequel but you’re gonna lose a lot of buts in the seats because most people will guess that you caved in to racist/sexist fanboys and fangirls wanting a K/S romance. Why did you say they were in love and dated at the Academy???

73. erizame - January 22, 2010

P.S. J.J. Abrams loves the Spock Uhura-and I doubt he’s gonna like this stupid explanation these cowards just made up for the sake of the hardcore TOS screaming fangirls and fanboys. Soooo lame and so stupid. Why even start it if you’re too scared to finish it??? LAME.

74. Christine - January 22, 2010

I would’ve been okay with S/U, if only there had been some kind of background to it. There was just this “OOHH they’re a couple?!?!” kind of “WTH” moment.

If you’re gonna have two major characters in a long-term relationship, don’t have your audience scratching their heads as to why. That’s a no-no for just about any writer!

75. KingDaniel - January 22, 2010

(insert obligatory “Please bring back Mr Arex for the next film” post here)

76. erizame - January 22, 2010

I agree with you Christine-and so does J.J. Abrams. He said that the sequel would not treat their relationship as a “joke” and that you’d get a chance to see these people and how this ship came about. He said the sequel would take it to the “next level”. That means we’d see how it came about. Not that I want that to be the focus of the film-I think it should be quietly in the background, But Orci/Kurtzman sound here like they’re treating the ship as a joke or a plot device. What an insult to a great character like Uhura! What was the point of that running commentary on the DVD about how in love they were?

77. Hugh Hoyland - January 22, 2010

Ok I have no doubt that there is more pressure on Bob and the SC with this one. Making a sequel usually is, you have higher expectations than you did on the first. Some ideas that might help if included in Star Trek 2 1. Khan the main villian, with a good helping of the Gorn (perhapes being manipulated by Khan to fight against the UFP. 2, S&U still in love but having trouble due to personality conflicts they did not anticipate. 3. Kirk just starting to have hints at a love interest (guess who, and yes shes hot). 4.More Bone’s and/or the “Trio”………….

78. RoobyDoo - January 22, 2010

I’d like to see us start off a few months into the 5-year mission. The crew will have already completed a few successful, though uneventful assignments. Kirk can show some off a bit of his “this isn’t gonnna be so hard after all” attitude. Then BLAM the crew is pushed to the limit.

Starting relatively early also allows for more mistakes, and let’s us watch the formation of bonds between the crew.

79. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

but the new movie is not an origina story, it is how alternate universe version of the characters got together but not how the original crew got together.

NO KHAN FOR 12.

80. Damian - January 22, 2010

My only main problem with the first film is kind of an OCD issue, set design. The story and the new timeline does not really bother me much. There is precedent (“Mirror, Mirror” and it’s sequels in DS9 and ENT, and the episode of TNG “Parallels” explains the idea perfectly). Besides they wrote the story and if they say it’s an alternate universe, then I accept that, end of story. But the sets drive me nuts because that is one area they significantly stray from canon. Starfleet Headquarters looks nothing like it did in all the other series. Vulcan looked completely different and they were doings some weird 4th dimensional thing with the Engine Room (not to mention it reminded me of Freddy Krueger’s boiler room).

I’m fine with the new writers, music, etc. The series needed new blood. I thank Rick Berman for almost 20 years of giving me new Star Trek, but it needed a breath of fresh air, which Abrams, Orci, and co. gave us. One guy I wished they carried over that would have fixed all that is Herman Zimmerman. He did the production designs since Star Trek V, and with the various complaints that crop up over the last 6 movies prior to this, set design was not one that I have heard. His sets were futuristic of course, yet you knew what each set was for. And it would have maintained a little consistency. I believe he would have revamped the original Enterprise in such a way that it would have some familiarity with the original series, yet done what the writer’s want in making it look 200+ years in the future. I know a lot of fans out there will jump all over me for that, but honestly, does the new Enterprise look anything at all like the original.

And not to belabor the point, but the lens flares seriously started giving me a headache. When I first saw it I thought, gee, you think they would have cleaned that up a bit. Then I discovered that they did that on purpose. I was recently watching “Nemesis” and saw a lens flare on a shot of the Enterprise and wanted to scream. Now I am hypersensitive to flares:) I know JJ loves flares, but can we ease up just a little. At least on interior shots. Pretty Please…

81. BiggestTOSfanever - January 22, 2010

I completely agree with #4.
@boborci if you read this do what #4 on this entry says, it’s perfect.

82. Weerd1 - January 22, 2010

79- I suppose you could call it an origin story for a new universe, but I agree, it is not the origin of the original crew. I love the film with all my Trekkie heart and soul (well, not the Scotty in the waterworks scene) but I do think there’s room somewhere out there for an actual TOS origin. James Cawley, are you reading…?

No Khan, I agree. Also, no Borg, no Klingons, no more Romulans (boy, I hope Remans are extinct in the new universe), no Mudd. The whole universe is wide open, let’s get a new villain. The only old villain I want to see is T’Pring, and that’s just so Jolene Blalock can play her.

83. TrekkieJan - January 22, 2010

I’m on record here for loving the new movie, but people in this thread have really put into words what had just been feelings for me, regarding Spock and Uhura.
Though put much more eloquently by posters above me, this relationship was put into the movie for the wrong reasons (shock, mainly), doesn’t make sense, lacks propriety, does end Spock’s character arc and does demean poor Uhura.
I would love to see the relationship over (and hopefully forgotten) by the next movie and Uhura given a chance to develop as a character in her own right. I’d love to see a more familiarly emotionally withdrawn Spock, the cool supportive counterpart to Kirk’s energy. Make it so!

84. Damian - January 22, 2010

My last post was a bit negative, but let me clear. I am glad Star Trek is still alive and kicking. My complaints about set design aside, I did enjoy the new movie. I thought the story was good and was much better than deciding, Hey lets just reboot it and forget everything that came before. In a sense, their story still has a lifeline to the Prime Universe and is still grounded in all that has come before. I’ll still see the next film and probably love it, even if I expect to see Freddy Krueger in the engine room or the whole film is done in lens flare mode. Hell, I even enjoyed ST V: The FInal Frontier. So you know I am a hardcore fan.

85. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

Look I know Vulcans have emotions what I was saying was for Spock to show them in front of people was embarassing for him.

I know the show and the characters.

When he lost his control over his emotions in The Naked Time he locked himself away from other. Spock is half human but he chose to supress his emotions and adapt his Vulcan side.

That was what I was getting at.

Gesh you make a bloddy comment and everyone thinks you dont understand the character. Well I do

I can buy in this alternate universe that because of the circumstances he might choose to abandon his vulcan control and embrace his human side more, but it will be a new character in that retrospect.

Remember when he showed happiness when Kirk was still alive in Amok Time, He used logic as his reason to try and cover up his loss in his mental control.

Just saying it was a change.

86. vjeko1701 - January 22, 2010

Ok, first I must say that I did not like Star Trek XI, it was a great film, but great Star Trek. You could have went to the 25, 26th century and you would be as free a a bird for any story, but I’m not here to criticize, I know that this is supposed to be a trilogy, so why don’t you put in the end of the second movie some whisper or subtle hint of a possibility to restore the canon Trek and then make the third movie about that.

I do appreciate what you did to Star Trek, and I realize that this was ment for a wider audience, but by doing that you ignored the fans that kept Trek going for 40 years.

87. Weerd1 - January 22, 2010

I think Spock and Uhura have precedent in TOS. In “Charlie X” Uhura is specifically singing a song about Spock breaking her heart. If in the Original universe Uhura came onto the Enterprise as a young Ensign toward the end of Pike’s command, there’s plenty of opportunity for her and the still emotional Spock to develop something. Then, while Pike’s leaving, Spock moves more toward his Vulcan heritage (losing his human father figure). This necessitates him breaking it off with Uhura. Being a mature woman, and posted to the best ship in the fleet, Uhura takes it in stride, but it does remain a bit of a joke between them. The minute I saw the new film and Uhura and Spock argue over her posting, I immediately thought:

“Oh, on the Starship Enterprise
There’s someone who’s in Satan’s guise,
Whose devil’s ears and devil’s eyes
Could rip your heart from you!

“At first his look could hypnotize,
And then his touch would barbarize.
His alien love could victimize…
And rip your heart from you!

“And that’s why female astronauts
Oh very female astronauts
Wait terrified and overwrought
To find what he will do.

“Oh girls in space, be wary,
Be wary, be wary!
Girls in space, be wary!
We know not what he’ll do.”

Whole new universe, we truly know not what he’ll do!

88. Devon - January 22, 2010

#36 – “If these writers do Khan I feel a lot of Trek fans will walk away from these movies.”

The same was said if they did an original series film. Trek fans didn’t then. So they won’t now.

“Am I the only one who feels they are not that great.”

No, but it’s not the point.

“Star Trek XI was a fun movie but to me it suffered from plot holes and contrivances large enough for a Galaxy Class starship to fly through.”

Yet never proven.

“Brannon Braga, Manny Coto, Ira Behr, Michael Pillar, Ron D Moore are better writers in my opinion,”

Yet people weren’t paying attention to their Trek, as good as some of it may have been.

89. Jorg Sacul - January 22, 2010

@Damian… When did they ever show Starfleet HQ? I saw the Academy, and a massive orbital spacedock complex over Earth,(I’m sure there are many) but I don’t recall SFHQ.

If the next movie is in the timeframe of the original 5 year mission, it will have to be at least 8 years out from this film. Do we really need to jump our characters that far into their future?

However, that being said, it *would* give time for Kirk to develop a friendship with Gary Mitchell.

I always thought Mitchell would have been a good foil for Kirk in TOS, but completely understand his fate in the 2nd Pilot.

I’m not going to start a Facebook page over it, but let’s see another IMHO wasted character return. LEE KELSO!

And of course, Mr. Arex. We have the technology! And he should be played by actor Doug Jones (Hellboy, Pan’s Labyrinth, and FF: Rise of the Silver Surfer)

90. S. John Ross - January 22, 2010

#4 “As for a bad guy, this one should be a war parable using the klingons to personify fundamentalism.”

I think, in AbramsTrek, that’s the Federation’s job now. They could do a story where Federation Fundamentalism looks Klingon Fundamentalism right in the eye and sees itself, though. That’d be kinda groovy.

91. Tina S - January 22, 2010

As a female viewer who was brought into the franchise by Star Trek XI, I was unable to relate to Uhura. (The character I related to the most was McCoy for his fears, his gaffes and his late restart in life). Uhura was supposed to be intelligent and yet had to strip down to do so or she sacrificed her professionalism to chase after a man. She was a flat character and there was no basis for a personal relationship between her and Spock.

Please work to redeem her character in the next movie. Women do not need to be super intelligent or have complex histories to be strong. Women also do not need romantic relationships to be interesting.

92. Damian - January 22, 2010

They showed Star Fleet Headquarters numerous times:
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
Star Trek VI: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: The Next Generation “Conspiracy”
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine “Homefront” “Paradise Lost” “The Changing Face of Evil”
Star Trek: Enterprise “Shadows of P’Gem”

I’m sure there are others, these are the ones I remember off the top of my head. If you look on the Memory Alpha website, and type Starfleet Headquarters, they show you several pictures of it as it was shown. Star Fleet headquarters in the new movie has no resemblence whatsoever to these pictures.

93. Trek Nerd Central - January 22, 2010

Am I the only person here who liked the Transformers movies?

Really, I’m just curious.

94. Janice - January 22, 2010

I’ll be happy if Bruce Greenwood returns as Admiral Pike in the sequel!
VERY happy!

95. Damian - January 22, 2010

I’m not into the whole resurrecting Khan idea. It is a huge risk. If the actor they get is not 100% good as Ricardo Montalban, it will be a bust. The reason someone redoes a character like Khan is because they feel it was missing something the first time. I do not see how anyone can find anything wrong with Montalban’s portrayal in “Space Seed” or ST II. It was worthy of an Academy Award in my opinion. And the whole point of the new alternate universe idea is so they can chart new territory. Redoing Khan, even if the story is different, is just regurgitating what has been done before. Let’s face it, Khan will still be a megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur. I want something totally knew, something that will blow me away. I’m not even all that interested in Klingons. Like the Borg or Time Travel, Star Trek has dipped into that font a few too many times. They were all great in their time, but I want the unexpected. Maybe some unforseen consequence of the new alternate universe, exploration with some hidden danger or villain. There are infinite possibilities here without going back to some well that has already been done.

96. Jeyl - January 22, 2010

I think Bob and Alex are giving Uhura WAY too much credit in her role on the ship. Take this scene for instance with Hannity and Uhura at their stations and tell me which character gives us the most important info.

- Hannity: All the other ships are out of warp sir and have arrived at Vulcan but we’ve seemed to have lost all contact.

So Kirk says Vulcan is under attack and we have lost all contact with our ships that just arrived at Vulcan. I believe that alone is sufficient information to call for a red alert since there are no traces of signals being jammed (which a ship can tell like in Wrath of Khan). Now let’s see what Uhura has to say.

- Uhura: Sir, I pick up no Romulan transmissions. Or transmissions of any kind in the area.

So…we get pretty much the same thing Hannity told us. And I do beg the question why Pike would want to scan for Romulan Transmissions if Vulcan was under attack. Why would he assume the Romulans would be sending out transmissions if they were attacking Vulcan? Didn’t we just cover the details that the Romulans are on one single ship? Who would the Romulans be transmitting to? Does Pike normally run into ships that frequently transmit signals to no one? And even if they were to transmit something, what are they going to say?

Nero: We are sending out this transmission in Romulan saying that we are currently attacking Vulcan. Also, now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho.

So in conclusion, Hannity wins over Uhura in “doing your job and contributing something useful” because her report was more conclusive in determining what actions needs to be taken. Uhura’s ability to hear silence doesn’t win her any favors because anyone could have come up with that conclusion if they understood the concept of silence.

Bob, Alex, I hope you understand that Uhura is now the only female character in Star Trek that matters, whatever that’s worth. And thanks to all the studios deciding that Star Trek should now be limited in it’s exposure with the cancellations of the new book series, she’ll probably be the only female character in Trek for the next decade. And having only one female character confined to doing nothing at her station while others do her job for her (Hannity) is, again, not an improvement from her previous incarnation. Her only development arc comes in the form of her accepting Kirk as Captain and meaning it. I don’t know why you thought Star Trek needed more moments where the female characters sole development comes in the form accepting the male characters as their superiors. To me, that’s a big step back for Star Trek, even for it’s portrayal of women back in the 60-70s. At least Gene put in the character of Number 1.

97. S. John Ross - January 22, 2010

#93: “Am I the only person here who liked the Transformers movies? ”

Maybe? :) I sat through the first 70 hours of the first one, but couldn’t keep my eyelids pried open and all the characters seemed thoroughly unsympathetic. Maybe if I were a fan of the franchise I’d have gotten it, I dunno. I snipped it off and never finished it. The day Uwe Boll (er, sorry, Michael Bay – I get them confused) makes a good movie will be a very strange day.

#94: “I’ll be happy if Bruce Greenwood returns as Admiral Pike in the sequel! VERY happy!”

Definitely; his performance is one of those that really elevated the material.

#96: “So…we get pretty much the same thing Hannity told us.”

Yah, Uhura had nothing of substance to do in the film, alas (she delivered a couple of pushbutton solutions to tick off her checkboxes, but was never challenged). This is a problem, but … None of the _other_ characters had anything substance to do in the film, either (likewise, just a series of contrivances, pushbutton solutions, gifts of fate and the Force, etc). It’s not just Uhura, sadly.

98. VOODOO - January 22, 2010

Just because the film will not be a remake does not necessarily mean that a character like Khan will not be in the film.

Who knows what Khan would be like in an alt universe? The character could appear in the film, but the writers could go in a completely different direction with him.

For the record I hope Khan is not involved in the sequel. It’s too obvious and I don’t think the original could be improved upon.

99. Iowagirl - January 22, 2010

#91
- As a female viewer who was brought into the franchise by Star Trek XI, I was unable to relate to Uhura. -

Try and watch TOS for a change. :)

100. 1701 over Gotham City - January 22, 2010

Sorry, I cannot buy that explantation for Spock and Uhura… behind closed doors, perhaps… but Spock of any timeline or age would never, never display emotions so publicly and personal.
The scene blows the character to me. It was “look at the sexy young stars we have, woooo!”
The finger stroking would have been soooo much better.

I really hope that relationship is dropped completely. Spock can’t be the stoic sex symbol he’s known for while he’s attached.
in TOS I thought the most inteesting frailty Uhura had was her vanity… it was a great realistic flaw in a strong character. But we DON’T need to see her undress to show it.

AND GIVE THE WOMEN SLEEVES!!! How can we tell rank???

101. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Spock-Uhura only works as a doomed romance and, as Kirk’s development into the Great Captain would be interesting to see, the implosion of the Spock-Uhura romance would be too.

And you can’t have two alpha males on the Enterprise. I like the youthful, screwing around Kirk, but I don’t want him to stay that way.

I want to see him TAKE the center seat for the first time in a way that says he is in charge in a different way than because his name is on all the official paperwork, and I would like to see it done with some emotional force, sort of the way it happened so beautifully in the third ST trailer — to powerful music rousing the expectation that a pivotal moment has been reached, and some serious consequences will now follow.

Plenty of opportunities in the sequel for some great drama.

102. Julie - January 22, 2010

The great love story of Star Trek is between Kirk and Spock. In an interview conducted in the mid-1970s Gene Roddenberry said, “I definitely designed it as a love relationship…I designed Kirk and Spock to complete each other…with love overtones…deep love…” He hinted that physical love had never been shown between them because it wasn’t acceptable in the 1960s, but “we certainly had the feeling that the affection was sufficient for that…”

Watch TOS it is there. Especially first season. In the first five minutes of “Shore Leave” Kirk complains of back pain, but when he realizes a female yeoman is rubbing his back instead of Spock he dismisses her perfunctorily.

This is one of the reasons a lot of LGBT Trek fans are hoping to see Spock Prime and Kirk Prime reunited in the next movie. So they can come out of the closet and make it retroactive to the 60s. Afterall, that is one of the things Star Trek is about.

103. Yalegirl03 - January 22, 2010

The comments on S/U by the writers have me worried that they will downplay S/U or write their relationship out of the next film. Please don’t do this!!! I saw the movie seven times in the theaters largely BECAUSE of S/U. Spock and Uhura make such good sense and they have such chemistry, a chemistry that could not be explored further than flirtation in a few episodes of TOS due to the times. Also, S/U has a very large fanbase, we just aren’t as vocal as the anti-S/U fans. There are large communities that write fanfiction featuring S/U, some active before the movie based on the characters chemistry in TOS. And I have many female friends and acquaintances who were drawn into trek largely because of Spock and Uhura’s relationship. Plus, I think their relationship goes a long way to characterize both of them. The Spock you created in the reboot is such a complicated and beautiful character because of his struggle between his humanity and his Vulcanity (?) and his relationship with the human members of the crew, his love for Uhura being a big factor.

I just hope that in the sequels there is not some weak contrivance to break up Spock and Uhura or explain away their relationship. If they are broken up in the next film I know I won’t be paying $14 a pop to see the movie multiple times.

104. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

96: “So…we get pretty much the same thing Hannity told us. And I do beg the question why Pike would want to scan for Romulan Transmissions if Vulcan was under attack. Why would he assume the Romulans would be sending out transmissions if they were attacking Vulcan? Didn’t we just cover the details that the Romulans are on one single ship? Who would the Romulans be transmitting to? Does Pike normally run into ships that frequently transmit signals to no one? And even if they were to transmit something, what are they going to say?”

Dude, that is wrong on so many levels. The Narada is HUGE. You think Romulans on board that huge ship communicate to each other by cupping their hands and yelling really loud?

You would pick up electronic intra-ship communications, if nothing else.

You think that’s dumb? Nope. With the right equipment somebody could pick up your freaking KEYBOARD strokes from a van across the street and read what you are typing, and I mean from a wired, not wireless, keyboard too.

105. Zed - January 22, 2010

I wan to see Mandala Flynn, and her security team.

106. Scott - January 22, 2010

I agree with those bemoaning focus on a villain. Much of the best loved ST had no villain per se. The Naked Time, Amok Time, City of the Edge of Forever, Shore Leave, Mirror Mirror, The Enemy Within, Devil in the Dark, The Trouble with Tribbles… I wonder if the reliance on villains for the movies is lack of imagination, or if it’s an unfortunate by-product of feeling that “big screen” productions need big simple adversaries that can easily generate lots of fireworks. More action, less thinking. Maybe that’s why the TV approach has so often been better. But I do think it’s worth noting that the most successful of the TOS movies was ST IV which was one of the few ST movies with no big villain.

As for Spock and Uhura, here’s the clip Weerd1 is talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxLqDt2QVA

107. dielle - January 22, 2010

@ #100

Sorry, I cannot buy that explantation for Spock and Uhura… behind closed doors, perhaps… but Spock of any timeline or age would never, never display emotions so publicly and personal.

neither TOS!Sarek would never admit to “love amanda”, even with his son.

they are not your father’s characters, is that so hard to understand?

108. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - January 22, 2010

I like the fact that Bob and the court talk to us fans and get our input and them being fans as well realy helps. What other movie franchise has that. Not Star Wars or Spiderman or any of the others. I feel real confident in the Star Trek Franchise with Bob Orci and J.J and the court being in charge. So Mr Orci. Screw up and you get the Agoniser Booth for 7 days straight.

109. Yalegirl03 - January 22, 2010

67

I so agree with you nuSpock. People forget Sarek. I mean, Sarek is a full Vulcan and a very prominent and respected Vulcan at that, yet he loved and married a human women. Even in TOS his affection for Amanda was very clear in Journey to Babel. After she dies, he even married another human in TNG! So, to argue that Spock’s relationship with Uhura makes him less Vulcan doesn’t make any sense at all.

110. VeratheGun - January 22, 2010

101. You’ve got it right. We all know Spock/Uhura is doomed. It’s up to the writers to make it hurt US as much as the characters themselves, when the inevitable break up comes.

So many good points have been made about the characterization of Uhura, that there’s very little to add.

Boborci, you have Zoe Saldana, this beautiful, extremely talented actress to work with, and you made her basically a secretary and girlfirend. And she’s so good, that she transcended the material you gave her to work with.

She deserves so much better. Your audience deserves so much better. Women are allowed to fall in love, but it doesn’t define their very existence. Give Uhura something to do in the next film that shows WHY she’s one of the elite few chosen to serve in StarFleet.

I know you can do it!

111. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Yeah, Spock/Uhura will appeal to a very narrow range of people, most of them probably women who have Spock fantasies.

Most new fans probably don’t care about Spock/Uhura at all, and most old fans probably range from disliking it intensely to thinking it just doesn’t work.

What I am puzzled by is how Spock-Uhura got in, while Shatner did not. That was much more important to the story.

“The great love story of Star Trek is between Kirk and Spock. In an interview conducted in the mid-1970s Gene Roddenberry said, “I definitely designed it as a love relationship…I designed Kirk and Spock to complete each other…with love overtones…deep love…” He hinted that physical love had never been shown between them because it wasn’t acceptable in the 1960s, but “we certainly had the feeling that the affection was sufficient for that…”

The most disappointing thing about your comment is this popular idea that deep friendship should entail sex. As if there are really no other sorts of deep relationships besides sexual ones. That’s sad.

In fact, the deepest and most meaningful relationships do NOT involve sex, or the desire for it, at all. Now that’s hard for some people to get their heads around, but true none the less.

Love and sex are not the same things, folks. Why do some people have a hard time understanding that?

112. Scott - January 22, 2010

Julie, re: “but when he realizes a female yeoman is rubbing his back instead of Spock he dismisses her perfunctorily.” — I would suggest that was because he felt it was inappropriate, not because he was disappointed. But I guess everyone sees everything through their own prism!

113. rogue_alice - January 22, 2010

Bring back Trelane!!!! grin.

114. Damian - January 22, 2010

Julie–
I’m sorry, but Kirk is about as hetero as you can get. I mean in every other episode he is bedding down with some new female (human or otherwise). I now the LGBT community wants a gay character, but you are not going to get it with Kirk. (Sulu, maybe, since George Takei has come out of the closet). The audience would laugh till they croaked if they tried to make Kirk gay. The relationship between Kirk and Spock is much more like brothers. He said as much in Star Trek V, saying he almost lost a brother once, and he got him back (a clear reference to Spock). Yes, there is a deep love between them, but it is clearly a love of family, not romance.

Don’t forget Gene Roddenberry would say one thing and two years later saying something different. How many times did he say he considered canon was one thing, and the next week saying something totally different. Many have said one of the reason’s for the problems with The Motion Picture were his constant rewrites and constantly changing his mind. I love his creation, but let’s be honest, it was the people who took up the reins (i.e. Nicholas Meyer, Leonard Nimoy, Rick Berman, JJ Abrams, who kept it going all these years).

115. Mr. Delicious - January 22, 2010

KHAN worked so well in STII because of Montalban’s performance yes…

…but also because he had already been established in the series. He had a backstory…and HISTORY with the Enterprise crew.

So did the BORG in FIRST CONTACT. Picard had been wounded by them.

It was what was at stake PERSONALLY that made them the best villains; while at the same time each film added a new dimension to it’s respective heavy.

It may be wise to go with an established TOS character (in this case I’m not hoping for Khan) – say Kang, Kor, or the Gorn – but delving a whole lot deeper – and keeping the stakes as high as — well, the death of Vulcan.

That would be exciting.

116. L. C. L - January 22, 2010

Star Trek XI was the first movie in five years that made me go back to the theater to see it again. The elements of the film that kept me wanting to see it over and over were the parachute/space dive scene and all of the Spock & Uhura scenes. Now that I have the DVD I rewatch Spock and Uhura scenes just to admire the brilliant little touches that Zoe Saldana and Zachary Quinto brought to every little interaction.

I want to see more of the Spock & Uhura relationship in the next film along with growth in the friendship of Spock-Kirk -McCoy. Spock’s relationship with Uhura does not negate his epic friendship with Kirk. Most adults are able to maintain meaningful friendships, as well as relationships with a significant other.

117. Damian - January 22, 2010

I asked Bob Orci a question on another board but it was a bit older so I thought I’d repeat it here in case he shows up.

I was curious what your favorite of the latter shows were (DS9, Voyager or Enterprise) and of the 4 Next Generation movies? Unlike JJ Abrams and the others, you have noted in the past that you have been a fan of the whole Star Trek universe. The reason I ask is it will give some perspective on where you’re coming from when writing. Each of these later shows and movies had their own unique themes and I was just curious about some of your influences.

118. Mr. Delicious - January 22, 2010

115 – Having said that….

I would like to see what you guys could come up with WITHOUT using a villian formula.

I doubt Paramount would allow for that at this point however…

119. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

109: “So, to argue that Spock’s relationship with Uhura makes him less Vulcan doesn’t make any sense at all.”

Uhura isn’t Amanda. She joined Starfleet, and not to follow her Vulcan man wherever he went and to become a stay at home mom. And quite apart from the question of whether the type of girl Uhura is can STAND being connected long term to a man who does not express his emotions — she’s ALL human, remember, there is also the issue of what happens to the character of Spock if he turns into this monotone pointy eared human who randomly breaks down into loss of control.

To those who like to point out little things in TOS to back up Spock/Uhura, there are far more other things to shoot it down. Enemy Within. Uhura lashes out at Spock for showing no emotion when a crew member is reported dead and it could’ve been Kirk, and Spock lashing right back at Uhura, which sends her stomping away. Uhura making googly eyes at him in the same scene, and Spock coolly uninterested.

That Nichelle Nichols Uhura would get tired REAL quick with Spock’s emotional control. Uhura is not Amanda. Totally different character.

Spock is interesting BECAUSE he is so logical and so in control. Hell, if you are going to have Spock openly sucking face with Uhura — something out of character even for KIRK, who would get a room — there’s no reason left why you can’t have him smiling around and cracking jokes too.

Spock isn’t about the bowl cut and the pointy ears. But that’s all you’d have left if that’s the direction they take Spock. That’s not more interesting, that’s less interesting, and less imaginative.

120. Spooky - January 22, 2010

I loved the vast majority of this movie, but I must admit I am wondering how you’re going to handle Kirk and Spock’s intense and timeless friendship in the sequels. A big part of Spock’s character in TOS centered around the struggle between emotions and Vulcan stoicism, and his emotional side was always explored through his friendship with Kirk. When he broke down in The Naked Time, it was that friendship which he admitted brought him shame. In Amok Time, when he was experiencing a condition “which no outworlder may know”, it was Kirk who he eventually confided in. In The Motion Picture, when he finally realized that feelings were ok, it was Kirk who’s hand he reached out for. In Search for Spock, it was Kirk who Sarek implored to save his son, and it was Kirk, of all people, who’s name Spock remembered at the end. Kirk has always been the single most important person in Spock’s life, and vice versa.

What I worry about now, is that with Spock in a relationship with Uhura, why would it be Kirk who he would have all these important experiences with? Shouldn’t it be Uhura who Spock confides in about his mating time? Shouldn’t it he Uhura who Spock remembers after coming back from the dead? Obviously these exact things won’t happen again in this universe, but I do have to wonder, shouldn’t it be Uhura who’s the most important person in Spock’s life? And if so, won’t that destroy one of the greatest bromances in television history? The key to Kirk and Spock’s friendship and devotion to each other, the way it was in TOS and the movies, was that neither of them had a long term love interest. They were each the most important thing in the other’s life.

121. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

At the end of ST.09 Kirk orders the Enterprise away and Spock appears announcing his candidacy for First Officer. Implication? His role aboard the ship was not established at that point. Hell, he WAS planning to drop out of Starfleet and move to New Vulcan.

And there was Uhura, flitting about the bridge, not preparing at all to leave with Spock and join some Vulcan colony.

So how important could that romance be? Answer: Not more important to Uhura than staying aboard the Enterprise not knowing when or if she’d ever see Spock again.

122. Jamesb3 - January 22, 2010

Bob, you are absolutely right – based on that scripted scene you wrote for Shatner, it would have played beautifully on screen without seeming forced. I wish it could have happened.

123. Jeyl - January 22, 2010

@97. Yah, Uhura had nothing of substance to do in the film. This is a problem, but … None of the _other_ characters had anything substance to do in the film, either. It’s not just Uhura, sadly.

I don’t agree. Let’s go over what every character contributes that has substance. So in regards to substance, the characters would have to face a situation that no one else could do, step up and take action and actually makes a difference. Let’s see how that goes.

- Kirk: He figures out everything about the Romulan attack, He takes command of the Enterprise, and pretty much does everything.
Conclusion: DOES SOMETHING

- Spock: He decides to take action against Nero by taking part in boarding the Narada, confiscating Spock Prime’s ship, destroying the Drill, ramming the ship into the Narada and thus ending Nero’s threat.
Conclusion: DOES SOMETHING

- Bones: He decides not to leave Kirk behind and takes action to ensure he gets aboard the Enterprise. He lies to an officer and succeeds in getting Kirk on board.
Conclusion: DOES SOMETHING

- Sulu: Saves Kirk’s life while fighting on the Drill with his Katana (Also does not use fencing). Warps the Enterprise into the rings of Titan which hides it from the Narada, a feet that Scotty even compliments. He also warps in just in time to save Spock and destroy all of the Narada’s missles.
Conclusion: DOES SOMETHING

- Chekov: Saves both Sulu and Kirk by using the Transporter in a way that no one else thinks about or even knows how to do (Bonus points for taking a job away from a woman). Also figures out a strategy to hide the Enterprise from the Narada’s sensors. He also gets more bonus points for doing Uhura’s job as communications officer by hailing the Narada even though Uhura is assigned to that station.
Conclusion: DOES SOMETHING

- Scotty: Saves both Kirk, Spock and Pike by transporting both of them onto the Enterprise at the same time. He later saves the ship by ejecting the Warp Core(s) and detonating it(them).
Conclusion: DOES SOMETHING

- Uhura: Deciphers a klingon transmission, but tells no one about it besides her room mate and she has to be put into the spotlight before she’ll even confirm it later. Unfortunately the Enterprise was in no real danger when entering Vulcan since the shields didn’t protect the Enterprise from the slow moving debris and the Narada didn’t open fire for at least 50 seconds. Plenty of time for Pike to react and raise shields before anything bad were to happen.
Conclusion: Does something, but it ends up being pointless.

So you see? Every character steps up, takes action, saves the day and does it in a way that’s indisputable because their direct actions made things better. Uhura’s contribution, if everyone still wants to believe actually amounts to anything, is only one element out of many in Kirk’s plee to Pike because she didn’t take action, she didn’t step up and she didn’t do anything directly to save the day or make anything better. She had to be put on the spot light before she even says anything.

124. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

88

Thanks for makingme feel like I am in the minority

Look those writers I mentioned are better.

125. captain_neill - January 22, 2010

Am I the only one who thought the Shatner scene was very contrived?

126. Lee - January 22, 2010

Yeah, Spock/Uhura will appeal to a very narrow range of people, most of them probably women who have Spock fantasies.

Most new fans probably don’t care about Spock/Uhura at all, and most old fans probably range from disliking it intensely to thinking it just doesn’t work.

This is an apt description of the fan base I think. I enjoyed the new movie, and thought the actors did a good job of portraying their characters. However, the Spock and Uhura scenes seemed completely out of sync for several reasons.

1. Some mentioned before that Spock’s father, Sarek, loved a human woman, so Spock should likewise express love for a human woman. The problem is, Sarek enjoyed his “deviance” with the security of having been a full-blooded Vulcan, and not an insecure hybrid, who has always had to cope with accusations of being too human by his Vulcan peers. Spock has. If we learned anything about Spock from TOS and the earlier movies, it was that he feared showing a loss of control in front of others. To see Spock suddenly engage in kissing and nuzzling Uhura in the Transporter Room was nothing short of a complete departure from character.

2. There was no chemistry between them. I don’t know if this was just a failure between the Quinto and Zaldana or what. I watched this movie several times and each time, it became less convincing. And I wanted to be convinced that this relationship could work! I’ve always liked both characters. But each time I came away from the movie, I felt an absence of any great passion underlying this relationship.

3. In an attempt to compensate for lack of chemistry, the scenes involving Spock and Uhura seemed to involve an express lack of decorum or professional attitudes. For example, after Vulcan was destroyed, and the Enterprise still facing a dire situation, at red alert, Uhura LEAVES HER POST to her subordinate to go comfort her boyfriend. I think she should have comforted Spock–but at a more appropriate time, when they weren’t all facing a deadly situation, and needed their most talented communications officer to be present and monitoring her station. Is this a functioning military organization or NOT?

It is scenes like that above that seem to indicate a willingness on part of the writers and producers to sacrifice Uhura’s professionalism and her ambition for her career to make her act as just another female love interest. And, if I wanted to watch teeny bopper romance story plots, I would spend my money on movies like Twilight.

I watch Star Trek, and have watched it, because of its themes of exploration, new discovery, and themes of loyalty, service, and deep friendship. This movie seems to have started New Trek in the right direction. But, I hope that any sequels do a better job of convincing me of the characterization development going on with Spock and Uhura, and the other characters to a secondary degree.

127. penny - January 22, 2010

Perhaps Orci and Kurtzman should stop attending Trekker conventions, stop reading e-mails and letters from Trekkers and do what that did when writing the previous movie script. Write what they thought would be interesting. What they thought fans would enjoy. It worked in the first movie why quetion the formula because a few people thought Spock was down=graded (what the heck does that mean anyway). I enjoyed that they messed with the Trekkers comfort zone.

Spock/Uhura worked in the first movie it will work in the next one. The future of the ST franchise is Kirk/Uhura/Spock. If they remember that they’ll be just fine and so will the franchise. They won’t make money by trying to please fans from 40 years ago.

128. Mel - January 22, 2010

@ 121 dmduncan

Good point. That is another reason why I find the S/U relationship unbelievable. It comes out of nowhere, there is no chemistry between them, and obviously Uhura’s main priority is her career for which I don’t blame. It would be stupid of her to give up her dream to work on a starship only because of a man.

And Spock only decided to stay on the Enterprise because of what the old Spock said to him. Did he mentioned Uhura? No! Instead he spoke about his great friendship with Kirk which is so big that it define their lifes. Not once did he mentioned Uhura, probably because he didn’t have any romance with her in his timeline. Not that I am surprised about this because in TOS there is no indication about a love affair between them.

So Spock wanted to go to the Vulcan colony at first despite his relationship with Uhura. So he didn’t have a problem with leaving her and she not with leaving him. Only after the old Spock spoke with him, he changed his mind.

129. Dreamer - January 22, 2010

Dear Mr. Orci and Mr. Kurtzman,

I know the S/U relationship has a lot of vocal detractors, but it’s one of the primary reasons why this non-Trekkie became a fan. A lot of people enjoyed this aspect of the film.

Have you read all the new fanfic out there? There’s tons of it. I think it’s safe to say that many expect to see this relationship developed in the sequel.

130. Chris Fawkes - January 22, 2010

These guys could make Star Wars cool. I’m so looking forward to the next installment of Star Trek.

131. Lee - January 22, 2010

@ Dreamer, I think it’s also safe to say that people will continue to write whatever they want regardless of what direction the next film takes. There are all kinds of “pairings” represented out there, regardless of what is actually IN the movies or on the screen. If new fans will only come to the sequel if they see Spock and Uhura make out, they are not likely to be the kind of long term devotees that make a franchise money. Folks may disparage “old Trekkers” (the term is Trekkies I think) all they want, but they are what built Star Trek into the dynasty it has become. Disregard them, and you’ve lost your best, most loyal support.

132. Dreamer - January 22, 2010

Lee,

Respectively, I see no evidence that S/U is facing widespread hate by Trekkies and that Trekkies will abandon ship because of it.

Of course, S/U is hated by K/Sers. That can’t be denied. But much of the existing Star Trek fanbase? Quite frankly, I haven’t seen enough evidence to support that.

But even if it is true, I’m sure Trekkies will continue to see the films regardless. They always do, right? No matter how bad they get? ;)

133. M.R. - January 22, 2010

I went to see Star Trek with very little expectations. I loved TOS and the subsequent movies and to be perfectly honest I thought there was no possible way that the reboot could improve upon the original.
And it did.
It is a spectacular movie overall, full of heart and soul and character and part of that is because of Spock’s relationship with Uhura. It gave both characters more depth, the story more emotion and made me truly believe in not only them but the story. They are, first and foremost, officers of Starfleet, but that shouldn’t mean that they should become cardboard cutouts, incapable of having relationships and personalities outside of their roles.
Yeah, okay, he’s her superior officer, which is why it is a very good thing that this is a movie and a sci-fi movie at that, so rules are meant to be broken and fantasies can be acted out. That aside, they are two consenting and professional adults who are very much capable of having a relationship and separating it from their duties.
My generation is pushed and pushed and pushed to do it all, to be both the astronaut and beauty queen, yet there is always the double-edged sword to it–we are pushed to want a career yet are told we cannot have it all, that to have it all, in fact, is greedy and so we must choose–to we have the perfect job or do we have the perfect life?
It is both a pleasure and a relief to see a character have both, to have a career she adores and a man that can keep up with her, who is not threatened by her intelligence nor feels like he must be more than her. They can kiss and have a conversation, and it is a relief to finally see that in a movie.
I hope that the writers listen, that they ignore those who are evidently threatened by the thought of a strong female character with a love interest and keep the relationship in the sequel. It will be a vast disappointment to a large number of fans should they not.

134. Nelson - January 22, 2010

I just read this article and I haven’t read through all the comments yet. So excuse me if I’m repeating something already said.

Interesting to read Orci and Kurtzman’s comments about the next film. I have to say, I am not very enthusiastic about the idea that the sequel has to have a villain. Why could it not be what made Star Trek so good, where the story involves this group of people working together to solve a problem. We see failure after failure in TNG films of trying to use a villain. Just can’t copy Wrath of Khan.

A threat other then a megalomaniac would be refreshing. A probe looking for whales was pretty good, or a machine run amok in the galaxy destroying worlds was terrific.

135. Mel - January 22, 2010

@ 103. Yalegirl03
@ 129. Dreamer

I hope they don’t base their decision about relationships in Star Trek on what shippers like. Fanfiction writers and readers are mainly women, a lot of them relative young. That is a too narrow target group for Star Trek. It is not Twilight!

And by the way the S/U community has not even the largest shipper fanbase. That is clearly the K/S community. So if they follow your argument, they have to make Spock gay and get it on with Kirk.

I guess the best thing would be if there would be no romances between main characters. It is just not necessary and will take away screen time from more interesting scenes.

136. montreal paul - January 22, 2010

I would love to see a good “Mirror Universe” movie… not the direction it took in DS9.. but come up with something that will blow us away.

If not that… a good Klingon adversary such as Kang as the main villian.

In either case.. you want strong characters and a strory story with pathos & drama.

137. boborci - January 22, 2010

91. Tina S – January 22, 2010

Noted.

138. Lee - January 22, 2010

Dreamer, I assume by K/S you mean Kirk and Spock in a same sex relationship? Besides the fact it will never ever be on screen, by your logic, because there are folks out there who want it, it should be put in the next movie to keep that group happy. My point is, neither so-called S/U nor S/K folks make up the vast majority of trek fans. So, I wouldn’t much appreciate either group attempting to use Trek as their fantasy playground.

I don’t know what circles or groups of friends you keep with. But, if you are a new fan as you say, I doesn’t surprise me that you may not have encountered any criticism of the Spock/ Uhura thing. I’ve been a fan of Trek for 18 years, and though I’m not the convention-going type, I have my collection of Star Trek novels and movies and posters. I have several friends and family who are longtime fans. Their reaction has been the same as those expressed on this board–a mixed group of confusion to dislike. Or like me, annoyance that it seemed to add nothing to the movie, but messed with Spock’s supposedly Vulcan nonemotion. The only person I know who actively liked it is my younger, 25 year old sister, who loves Jane Austen, and confessed the only reason she liked the new movie is because of Spock and Uhura romance.

I guess that’s fine, but I’m somewhat of a purist. I think after the Next Generations, (and Gene Roddenberry), Star Trek series got less and less interesting and more like a soap opera. I watched the new movie, and thought it did a good job of trying to restore the world created by cutting edge visionary Roddenberry. . But, Spock and Uhura were so weak, in my opinion, that they largely detracted from the thing, and so I’d rather they get back to the basics, and the characters that caught my interest from the first. Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, and the dynamics between the three, and the supporting and interesting characters of Uhura, Scotty, Sulu, and Chekov.

139. Lee - January 22, 2010

I forgot to add to my last post:

Caveat: Of course, each to his or her own. I like the movie for many reasons (the adventure, the suspense, Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, etc.), so Spock and Uhura sharing a hug and a kiss aren’t a make or break deal for me. So long as it stays peripheral. But, make the next movie a great love story centered all around them? Or where he is constantly acting emotional and showing PDA all over the place with her? Yeah, then you’ve lost me. And probably a lot of other die hard fans, as well.

140. Danpaine - January 22, 2010

….just another voice agreeing that the Shatner cameo at the end would have been simply fantastic. The script you guys wrote there for him was spot-on excellent; I got a chill reading it. What a missed opportunity.

141. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

123: “Unfortunately the Enterprise was in no real danger when entering Vulcan since the shields didn’t protect the Enterprise from the slow moving debris”

I think you are assuming that slow moving debris are less dangerous than fast moving torpedoes and that if the shields can’t protect against slow moving debris, they’d be even more ineffectual against torpedoes.

Logically, it would also seem that bullets with a slower terminal velocity would penetrate less than bullets with a much faster terminal velocity. Seems logical, but test after test shows in fact that is not the case, and that faster terminal velocities do not always translate into deeper target penetration.

I am also reminded of Dune wherein the personal shields of a fighter can be easily penetrated by a slow moving hand wielding a knife, but not by a fast moving sword. And also of the protection suits in Ringworld Engineers (if I recall correctly) which seem made of ordinary fabric, but which tenses into hard armor in proportion to the speed of an attack against it.

“and the Narada didn’t open fire for at least 50 seconds. Plenty of time for Pike to react and raise shields before anything bad were to happen.”

This is an editing issue that could probably be chalked up as confused timing. You can’t show everything at once, and by rearranging the shot sequence you could probably make this less confusing for those who look at the timing as a literal representation of the timing in the movie.

You might, for example have the Enterprise detected before it comes out of warp, and Nero ordering it destroyed. The torpedo is launched. The Enterprise comes out of warp, Pike is stunned. The Enterprise is hit as soon as it appears. We see explosions. Pike orders evasive around the floating hull. Nero orders another shot as it clears the debris, and then countermands his order.

Point being, if it can work using the existing scenes but changing the timing, then you can suspect the timing is off from the beginning and not get hung up over that detail.

“So you see? Every character steps up, takes action, saves the day and does it in a way that’s indisputable because their direct actions made things better. Uhura’s contribution, if everyone still wants to believe actually amounts to anything, is only one element out of many in Kirk’s plee to Pike because she didn’t take action, she didn’t step up and she didn’t do anything directly to save the day or make anything better. She had to be put on the spot light before she even says anything.”

And yet she DID DO SOMETHING. You are dismissing it, but it’s there none the less. She provided an important piece of the puzzle and Kirk needed her to make his case. Without her piece of the puzzle, Kirk probably would not have seen the overall picture, and Pike probably would have had Kirk strapped to a table in sick bay.

142. Lee - January 22, 2010

I guess the best thing would be if there would be no romances between main characters. It is just not necessary and will take away screen time from more interesting scenes.

I second this.

143. Dreamer - January 22, 2010

Mel,

The thing is, once you’ve let a genie out of the bottle it’s hard to put it back again. Star Trek XI was a game changer in terms of Spock’s character. The movie clearly showed a Spock who has evolved, one who’s willing to reveal his emotions to a degree that TOS Spock could not. You can’t just go back to TOS Spock after that. It would make no sense, dramatically speaking.

That’s why, to me, it would seem false to just suddenly separate these two characters. I mean, yeah, you could have him break up with Uhura arbitrarily. Have them both say “We’re just not right for each other.” But that doesn’t change the fact that Spock is no longer the man he was in another reality, it would not change the fact that this Spock has been fundamentally altered.

144. boborci - January 22, 2010

123. Jeyl – January 22, 2010

- Uhura: Deciphers a klingon transmission, but tells no one about it besides her room mate and she has to be put into the spotlight before she’ll even confirm it later. Unfortunately the Enterprise was in no real danger when entering Vulcan since the shields didn’t protect the Enterprise from the slow moving debris and the Narada didn’t open fire for at least 50 seconds. Plenty of time for Pike to react and raise shields before anything bad were to happen.
Conclusion: Does something, but it ends up being pointless.

————–

Correction: Shields were up, thus saving the ship, but they are not the bubble force field shields of years past. Instead, they strengthen the hull itself.

Not to mention, it is her weighing in during the debate between Spock and Kirk in front Pike that persuades SPOCK to allow Kirk to remain rather than be locked away.

Which brings me to another function that Uhura serves that we’eve never mentioned but was critical to the themes: It isn’t just that Uhura chooses to be with Spock (who, by the way, isn’t just some guy he’s chasing — he happens to be, in a certain sense, the creator of the particular universe they happen to be living in! Talk about a radar for interesting partners.) — but I digress, I was saying that choosing Spock is also A REJECTION OF KIRK, who in any traditional work (and even in canon) always gets the girl.

145. boborci - January 22, 2010

133. M.R. – January 22, 2010

Appreciated. Well articulated.

146. Spooky - January 22, 2010

“he happens to be, in a certain sense, the creator of the particular universe they happen to be living in!”

Wasn’t that Nero? By the time Spock Prime entered their universe, Uhura was already supposedly with Spock, wasn’t she?

“choosing Spock is also A REJECTION OF KIRK”

Does a woman really have to be with man A just to not be with man B? Can’t she just reject Kirk? Does it really need to be solidified by her being with someone else just to make it a true rejection?

147. Spockanella - January 22, 2010

I guess my whole issue with the Spock/Uhura thing was the makeout scene in the transporter. After some internal struggle, I could accept and make sense of their relationship, and even the kiss in the turbolift because there was at least some attempt at discretion. However, the scene in the transporter was just UNPROFESSIONAL for BOTH of them. I understand that Spock was in emotional turmoil and Uhura was afraid she was going to lose her lover, but as disciplined members of the service they just would not have displayed themselves like that. I get that Uhura was not only choosing Spock as well as rejecting Kirk, but I didn’t feel like I needed to be beaten about the head and neck with the concept to figure it out. It just felt gimmicky to me.

But not enough to make me not like the film, or reject it. Not enough not to put the DVD on my Christmas wish list! And am so looking forward to seeing what comes next. This movie brought the excitement back to Trek, and at the risk of geeking out totally, that sense of wonder. And I want more!

148. Desstruxion - January 22, 2010

Canon shmanon! Pickup the sequel story a few years later. Give Kirk a beard (if he can grow one). Throw the Borg in there. They could assimilate what’s left of the Vulcans (from colonies or whatever). Then instead of the Borg imprinting their ideals on the Vulcans and making them “Borgified Vulcans” we could have “Vulcanified Borg” (hard to type and say). Spock prime could be the first Locutus. This would actually make the Vulcans a little more interesting. Now that would be one hekuva movie.

Although Khan is appealing only because I’d like to see an Abramsverse styled Botany Bay.

149. startrek fanfic writer - January 22, 2010

I loved Spock/Uhura.

In his autobiography “I Am Not Spock” Leonard Nemoy said that he and Roddenberry imagined Spock as having had romantic trysts during his Academy days that caused him personal and professional hardship. So 10 years before the beginning of TOS under Captain Pike Spock went back to his Vulcan roots — becoming “more Vulcan”…then Kirk gradually loosened him back up again.

Also, the original writers wanted more Spock/Uhura but due to prevailing prejudices of the era they could not pull it off. (Even the kiss between Shatner and Nichols was supposed to be Nimoy/Nichols). The first season Spock and Uhura clearly flirted with one another, but then they had to tone it down.

That said, I do not think there should be much of a focus on Spock/Uhura’s relationship. It is something I think they would be very private and professional about. It should be implied more than shown.

I think the next movie should probably focus on the fallout from destruction of Vulcan. Too many unbonded Vulcan males going into Pon Farr w/o mates destroying the reputations of Vulcans everywhere (and there had to be more alive than 10K out in other systems).

Also, Romulans CAN come back big time. They may not have met the Federation as early in TOS, but this ain’t TOS…and after Nero, they’ve met.

150. Kirk2Bridge - January 22, 2010

The significance of the S/U script, is to unequivocally demonstrate that K/S is ‘fantasy’ , not science fiction.

125: Very.

151. Lee - January 22, 2010

@Dreamer

You said to Mel: That’s why, to me, it would seem false to just suddenly separate these two characters. I mean, yeah, you could have him break up with Uhura arbitrarily.

It seems to me the movie makers already almost broke them up, when Spock was about 90% sure he was going to join the colony. I don’t see Uhura, as a newly minted officer, who has just attained the rank and status she has trained for for so long, in the background, packing her things when Spock tells Old Spock about his plans.

The only thing that changes Spock’s mind is the Old Spock’s prediction that Spock and Kirk will form a friendship that will “define them both.” Not Spock and Uhura’s relationship, which I always figured your mate should be more important than any other friend or relative.

When he rejoined the Enterprise, he shared a friendly glance with Uhura, which could mean they are “back together, ” or “old friends reunited.”

I was left with the impression that their relationship was secondary to other interests (he, to his race’s crisis, and his duty to Starfleet, and she to her career, her duty, and her aspirations).

On that ambivalent note, if they stay or if they grow apart, it’s secondary to the main theme, or it should be anyway. Star Trek is about exploration, and its genre is science-fiction–not romance. Like someone else said, it’s not Twilight.

152. BigRedBri - January 22, 2010

Having Khan as the Villian is just remaking Star Trek II – Please leave it alone – do something orignal, like the first movie with tweaks on vintage Trek

153. Amelia - January 22, 2010

Just weighing in on the Spock/Uhura debate (the only part of the film I didn’t like, personally, and only because it felt like every movie MUST have a love story and rather shoehorned for that purpose) but it’s not the first inter-species kiss by a long chalk.

It’s not even the first inter-species kiss in this movie, unless Orions suddenly became human?

154. nada - January 22, 2010

First, if they either kill S/U or trivialize them there will be one less “nufan” watching the sequel. If the writers cave in and let the fans of the original series high-jack this new time line I am gone. Second, why is it so hard to understand that Prime Spock and New Spock will never be the same person. They have different life experiences. The Enterprise crew met under different circumstances. In the new time line Spock got a chance to get to know Uhura better and fall for her. She is an emotional center for him, and they (as a couple) center the movie in reality I can relate to and understand. I do not want to watch sexless Spock always struggling with his emotions. Been there,done it, now move on (are you listening Orci & Kurtzman?).
By the way, who is buying dvd’s. Must be the new fans who liked the new direction the franchise has taken. Orci & Kurtzman think on that and do not let mold set into the new timeline as it had happened with the original timeline.

155. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

144: “Talk about a radar for interesting partners.) — but I digress, I was saying that choosing Spock is also A REJECTION OF KIRK, who in any traditional work (and even in canon) always gets the girl.”

That is clear, Bob, but that’s also the problem. Kirk got the girl because of who he was, and by having the captain of the Enterprise be so easily rejectable you’ve taken away his mojo. It’s a hollow conquest if all Kirk can reflect on is his affair with the Enterprise.

If you keep the Captain of the Enterprise a frat boy it also makes it hard to make him seem deserving of that center seat. And if you evolve him into a person deserving of that chair, then some of the things Uhura, or other women, might have found unattractive, would disappear. And you wrote it so that Kirk IS attracted to Uhura, so you’ve committed yourselves to certain ideas now, so now how does it play out?

Does Kirk ignore his attraction to Uhura? Do you keep him as an immature frat boy? If you don’t, how does that change his relationship to Uhura?

156. SirBroiler - January 22, 2010

Somewhere, I read about a plot proposal, wherein the 5-Year Mission was a cover-up for some other, broad but covert Federation Plot involving section 31 – and that Kirk, Spock are the only ones in the loop – and then later they have to fill-in McCoy. I think something like that would be great! I always loved the stories about Section 31 and I think that’s a great story element for a film. ENT already established that Section 31 was in place then – so why not in this timeline?

157. Jeyl - January 22, 2010

@152: “Having Khan as the Villian is just remaking Star Trek II – Please leave it alone.”

No it’s not. Circumstances that made Khan the villain in Trek 2 took an episode of the original series and 15 years of development for his character to be what he was in Star Trek II. If Khan were to appear in the new sequel, he would be nothing like the revenge seeking Khan like the one we already know.

158. Lee - January 22, 2010

nada, your questions have all been addressed earlier in this thread by several posters. If this is the way “S/U” supporters feel, I sure hope to god that the “Spock and Kirk are gay” fan club don’t start arriving and trying to paint their pair into the next movie. Or who else what kind of combinations. Are there angry Sulu and Uhura fans out there not feeling fulfilled and also demanding they get their romance front and center?

Like I keep saying, it’s SCI-FI, not ROMANCE.

159. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

144: “Talk about a radar for interesting partners.) — but I digress, I was saying that choosing Spock is also A REJECTION OF KIRK, who in any traditional work (and even in canon) always gets the girl.”

I mean, by taking away Kirk’s mojo and making him unattractive to Uhura, you’ve also made him unattractive to the audience for the same reasons.

Of course, that’s only true if you KEEP him that way. But if you evolve him, then it stands to reason that other character’s attitudes towards Kirk will evolve too.

When Kirk and Spock were on the transporter together and Kirk asks Spock if her first name was Nyota, Spock peremptorily dismisses hm or, in modern parlance, disses him.

That sort of thing makes it harder to accept Kirk in the Captains chair as someone whom others will loyally follow.

160. Lee - January 22, 2010

@SirBroiler

Sounds like an interesting plot. Only problem is, how many people are familiar with Section 31. Lots of fans watched TOS and NG, but not DS9 and the other spin offs. Have to do a log of “bridge work” to explain what it is, and so on.

161. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

erizame warning for flaming

find a way to communicate without throwing insults

Capt_neil
I have warned you before, find a way to be more concise, make 5 posts in a row saying the same thing is unnessary. 1 out 10 posts in this thread are from you, that is spamming. You dont need to fill up threads to be heard

162. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Let Captain Jerk die so Captain Kirk can live. Please. Everyone who has read my comments knows how much I love ST.09 and what a vigorous defender of it that I am, but it would be a mistake NOT to evolve the characters forward in the next movie. The most boring characters are those who never change.

163. Mel - January 22, 2010

@ 143. Dreamer

Like I have already written in my post number 128, he wanted to leave the Enterprise to go to the Vulcan colony before his talk with Spock Prime. Obviously Uhura didn’t even consider coming with him. She seemed quite surprised when Spock comes on board at the end of the movie. And he didn’t change his mind because of her, only because of what the old Spock said to him and he didn’t mentioned Uhura with even one word. And Uhura values her career also more than her relationship with him. She was on board of the Enterprise when she still thought that he would go to the Vulcan colony. So all in all that doesn’t sound like the biggest love story in history to me. They both has other priorities than their relationship. If they break them up, it wouldn’t be arbitrarily. It is not like they are soooooo much in love.
And even if you think otherwise, who said that that couldn’t change? And sometimes relationships don’t work, even if two people really love each other.

I don’t mind that the new Spock is not the same one as in TOS. That I don’t like the S/U relationship is not because Spock is different than in TOS. I just think that the S/U relationship comes out of nowhere, that they lack chemistry and that is it overall unbelievable and seems forced.

And it take away screen time from more interesting scenes. Instead of showing Spock and Uhura kissing and looking at each other sick with love, I rather see some cool banter between Spock and McCoy for example. McCoy got really too few screen time.

If I want to see romances, I watch a romantic movie. I watch Star Trek for other things.

164. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

btw, added a poll on Uhura/Spock

i voted ‘ok with it’ but it seems that more fans dont like the U/S thing

165. nada - January 22, 2010

lee, my main point was that there are two different realities existing in the trek universe. The problem is that the old fans want to converge it back to a single (been there, done it) timeline.
And, why is there a problem having a romantic relationship between Spock and Uhura? I became a fan of this new franchise because of it. So please, do not brush me off like my opinion does not matter.

166. Trek Nerd Central - January 22, 2010

#164. I voted “okay with it,” too, but only because I resolved to accept the alternate-universe scenario.

I *still* say Uhura/Kirk hews closer to canon. They definitely had a thing for each other. Nichols and Shatner definitely played it that way, too.

#97. Funny thing is, I’m not a fan of the Transformers franchise. Not at all. I just went in expecting giant-robot movies, I guess.

167. Bird of Prey - January 22, 2010

There is still an open to the entire TOS universe with significant changes, and the Spock Prime factor that can be addressed with a need for Leonard Nimoy to “don the ears” again to set up the new universe story. Even though the Federation is a government of freedom, Spock Prime knows too much of what major dangers they will face, presumably unaffected by the new timeline (discovery of the Bottany Bay, flying things that arrived at Deneva colony, Andromeda invaders, etc). Even though one could say Spock Prime’s memory of items before his death in the nebula (Star Trek II) are not in detail, he has way too much information to leave unprotected and at least unquestioned. If the Klingons or Romulans found out about him, they would surely want to try to pry the info from him (“Errand of Mercy”-the Klingons have a mind sifter, which was used a mid-level on Spock, but not the extreme level). With this you could pick any time during TOS and bring in known items to fans, and the details and possibly outcome might change.

168. Jaxon - January 22, 2010

Let’s be real here. The minority online fan community is vastly different from the majority offline community in terms of how they interpret movies. The majority of the Reboot audience is NOT online. They do NOT follow fan wars. They do NOT read fanfic. They do NOT care about Spock/Kirk romance anymore than they care about Spock/Uhura or any other one for that matter. They have MORE important things to do than to overly wrapped up in fiction.

They go to the movies to be entertained, eat their popcorn, discuss it later with friends, maybe get the DVD some months down the line, and forget about it until the trailer for the sequel comes about some 3 years later.

There is a very small, but very vocal ST fanbase online, and I would hate to think that the writers who have created a Reboot, a completely non-canon take on ST, would adhere to a few entitled playground bully’s.

The movie did extremely well compared to the ones that came before it. People went back for third and fourth viewings, new ST fans were born. If the movie was a horrible as you all make it out to be, if Spock and Uhura were as stomach-turning as you all say, if the villain aspect was a unbelievable as some want everyone to believe- then that would not have been the case.

Wake up people, it is 2010. The world has changed drastically since the 60′s and lucky for all of us, ST changed with it. Had it not, then it wouldn’t have achieved the success it did with the new take.

169. Ruthy Charlot - January 22, 2010

As far as I’m concerned, I’m very pleased with the depiction of the relationship between Spock and Uhura. It’s staggering, and way past due that 1) angry biracial kid was in a healthy, supportive, nurturing relationship with a woman of his mother’s people who accepted him for who he is and 2) the black woman is respected and adored by someone who is at least as intelligent as she is.

In terms of Uhura’s characterization, I appreciate that she is intelligent and assertive and loving and has excellent boundaries when it comes to who decides is worth her time and isn’t. I was, however, less than thrilled that the key role she played in saving some of the Vulcan elders, and ultimately Earth, was referred to off scene while she (and Gaila) were in their underwear.

As for people who are up in arms with Spock and Uhura being in a romantic relationship, I think while they have many reasons for despising this. I think these people, if they are old school the original series fans, are overlooking the similarities and rapport between the original Uhura and Spock.

170. Mel - January 22, 2010

@ 146. Spooky

“choosing Spock is also A REJECTION OF KIRK”

Does a woman really have to be with man A just to not be with man B? Can’t she just reject Kirk? Does it really need to be solidified by her being with someone else just to make it a true rejection?

I agree with you Spooky.

@ boborci

Sorry boborci, but I think that was the stupidest reason for the Spock/Uhura relationship in the movie I read so far. Her rejection of Kirk in the bar was more than enough to show she has no interest in him. Also how she treats him at the Kobayashi Maru test and even later on the Enterprise. There was no need to give her a boyfriend to show that she has no interest in Kirk. That was already more than clear without it.

And that she rejects the advances of Kirk would even mean more, if she were single. Women in a serious relationship tend to stop advances from other men, even if they find them likable. At least faithful women do this most of the time.

171. Jaxon - January 22, 2010

btw, added a poll on Uhura/Spock

i voted ‘ok with it’ but it seems that more fans dont like the U/S thing
____________________

Of course that would be the outcome on this site. It is heavily S/K biased. Always has been and always will be. That’s the equivalent to polling vegetables against steak on a Grilling site!

172. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Bob, admit it: The only two reasons you wrote Spock and Uhura together is because you identify with Spock more than Kirk, and you have the hots for Zoe Saldana. ; )

173. bignate - January 22, 2010

Spock/ Uhura = first inter-species kiss? what about Trip/ T’pol?
What a blatant disregard for canon!

174. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

And I actually thought there was more chemistry between Kirk and Uhura than Uhura and Spock.

Kirk and Uhura’s relationship in the movie was a lot like the Bruce Willis/Sybil Shepard characters in the TV show “Moonlighting.”

175. Adrienne - January 22, 2010

Bob and Alex. I loved Star Trek 2009. I did. I really did, so I’m only going to criticize out of love.

Please put some women in the next movie. Also, try not to kill them, have them disappear, or be used as a sex object for a Vulcan (which is beyond illogical, I don’t care how Spock is half human).

Winona gives birth to Kirk and disappears. Amanda dies. I see Uhura nude or doing something extremely inappropriate like kiss a teacher/commanding officer. I know this isn’t the TOS, but in the TOS Uhura was a capable officer and an awesome lady. She didn’t need to be in a relationship with one of the lead characters. Also, Gaila? I am not entirely disturbed by her major scene being a nearly “sex” scene because she’s an Orion and there are certain expectations in the Star Trek fandom. However, the other scene with her being involved in Kirk’s Kobayashi success was deleted and it is then implied that she died on a ship destroyed by the Narada. I was almost curious when Uhura was going to die considering there was a big ol’ lack of living women in this movie.

You’ve also done away with Chapel and Rand. Why? You changed other characters drastically (i.e. Spock), so why not add in Chapel or Rand with a nice character makeover.

I really would just like to see some female representation and a shift back to the Kirk, Spock, and Bones dynamic that made the previous show and movies so enjoyable. It is their friendship that makes the Enterprise. I love Uhura but she does not replace Bones’ part in the mythos that is Star Trek. The women can be an integral part and the spirit of Star Trek can still be re

Believe me, I even liked the less popular Star Trek movies. I’m a fan. I just want some of the things that I found disturbing rectified by you very capable writers.

It doesn’t have to be TOS. In fact, it won’t ever be TOS because there are different writers and actors involved. I don’t want it rehashed. I just want certain aspects of it to relate so it can honestly be called Star Trek.

176. Lee - January 22, 2010

@nada

my main point was that there are two different realities existing in the trek universe. The problem is that the old fans want to converge it back to a single (been there, done it) timeline.

Timelines have to be very similar to produce genetically identical individuals. Meaning, their mommies and daddies all had to have similar attractive traits, etc. Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, etc., all are the same basic person. And NuTrek is essentially the same as the Old. It’s not a reinvention–it’s more like remodeling.

Meaning, if you’re going to call it TREK, and have a ship named NCC 1701, and have characters named Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc., then they have to, at the very essence, BE these things.

You can change up events, you can add romances, etc. But, if they alter the original too much, it ceases to have any relation to what it claims to be.

So, yeah, it’s alternate, but it still is similar enough to be recognizable. Once you change the characters too much, beyond certain parameters, you’ve gone and invented something else entirely. Which is fine, but don’t have Spock making out publicly with his girlfriend, and Uhura acting like her beau is more important than her duty, and call them Spock and Uhura. And don’t have Star Trek be about romance either between Kirk and green Orion women, or Spock and Uhura or other bridge officers, as if it is a romance story.

It’s fine as a subplot or whatever. But like Mel said, it’s like Abrams and Orci and Kurtzman decided they just HAD to have some love story, so they “shoehorned” it into the plot. And since Q and Z had about as much chemistry as Nancy Pelosi and New Gingrinch have together, it was pointless and distracting for me. Which is why I hope they either do a better job of making it interesting next time, or keep it to the sidelines.

I get that others really like S/U, like I said my little sis loved it. But it seems a poor way to reward your loyal fanbase to go and make something they’ve always appreciated as science fiction and action oriented, turned into a romance.

177. Mitch - January 22, 2010

If the Shatner scene wasn’t good enough for this movie, how about coming up with something better for the next one?

Ultimately, I would like to see these guys address a major flaw from the last movie. It’s common knowledge that canon is only what’s shown on screen. Countdown comics don’t count. Neither do interviews of the writers in the real world. Nothing in this movie suggests that the prime universe still exists. There is no line of dialogue that suggests that. Spock Prime’s existence is irrelevant, because in Star Trek, the time traveller is never affected, even when he changes history.

Even Uhura’s alternate reality line does not mean much, given that any timeline change is an alternate reality. That doesn’t mean the original reality still exists.

Star Trek has always been crystal clear about the ability to change the timeline, which is why time travel was always considered so risky and there were so many rules about it. Star Trek has also always been crystal clear when alternate universes have been involved.

Real world theories are nice, but Star Trek is not the real world and never has been. 1996 came and went, and Khan didn’t do anything. That early 21st century mission to Saturn led by Captain Christopher? We’re not going.

Ultimately, while I have no issue acknowledging that at any time, the writers can make the continued existence of the prime universe as canon, Star Trek 11 does not do that. I would love to see Star Trek 12 take care of this problem. One line of dialogue can end the issue once and for all. A whole movie dealing with the prime universe and the new universe would be phenomenal. I’d love to see them bring in Kirk Prime to deal with that, and again, sci-fi and Star Trek certainly can establish that Generations is not the end. To reunite Shatner and Nimoy, and maybe even have Nero reappear, would be awesome.

Orci says that they freed themselves up within canon. This is true. That’s fine. But the only evidence that the prime universe exists are the words of the writers. Unfortunately, that’s not canon.

178. Captain Otter - January 22, 2010

OK, not to anger my fellow fanboys and fangirls, but…

1) The whole Spock-Uhura thing seemed hinted at in TOS, and sort of mirrors the hints of Spock-Chaple as well. So long as the Enterprise isn’t treated like the love boat, I don’t see how the relationship damages the future of Trek.

2) 7 ships full of seasoned vets/instructors and cadets were obliterated. Many dead, many wounded, many certainly just wanting to avoid space after that. 1 ship survives thanks to an Audey Murphy-like performance from young Kirk. Given his stellar performance and the sudden thinning of the ranks, his ascent, though unorthodox, is plausible. History is full of examples of young, well-connected phenoms rising prematurely through the ranks and doing just fine. It isn’t an issue. We don’t need a “the young captain must prove himself all over again” movie.

3) #155- Let’s be clear. Kirk doesn’t just want to bed Uhura. He wants to bed every attractive female in the galaxy. Like Kirk-prime, Kirk-Pine is looking to explore strange new women. I don’t see Pine-Kirk repressing having the hots for Uhura is any different than Prime-Kirk repressing having the hots for Rand. Same dif.

4) #159- are you freakin’ serious? We can’t accept Kirk because Uruha likes Spock better?

And I suppose Picard sucked as captain because Riker got all the girls.

179. Vote_Gary_Mitchell - January 22, 2010

http://www.facebook.com/#/group.php?v=info&gid=223712577580

An effort to bring back the character of Gary Mitchell as seen in the second Star Trek pilot “Where No Man Has Gone Before”.

An open letter to Mr. Abrams, Mr. Kurtzman, Mr. Orci, Mr. Burk and Mr. Lindelof:

Now that the Star Trek universe has been so expertly reset, and will once again BOLDLY GO for many more years, for your consideration, I submit:

On a desolate, inhospitable world…a lonely building sits amongst rocks, mountains and sparse plant life. It is blatantly out of place. A large electronic holo-sign adorns what appears to be an entrance on the side of the building. It reads simply: “We’re Thinking, You’re Drinking”.

SOUND FX: BEAM IN

Kirk, Spock and Scotty appear in front of the entrance. They look up at the sign, which flashes from English to various other alien languages. Faint music can be heard from inside the structure.

KIRK: “We’re Thinking, You’re Drinking?” Spock, this doesn’t seem like your type of place.

SPOCK: It is not. Vulcans rarely consume alcoholic beverages…extremely illogical.

SCOTTY: Well it’s definately MY type of place! Do I have any sick days coming?

Scotty rushes past them and disappears inside.

KIRK: So why bring us here? You mentioned that you and Pike were here before?

SPOCK: Yes, some time ago. We require the assistance of the inhabitants of this planet…

KIRK: And we’re going to find them…in there…a bar in the middle of nowhere?

SPOCK: Precisely. They will undoubtedly be found inside…

KIRK: They what? Now wait…Spock…

SOUND FX: DOOR OPENING

They proceed through the door, which “wooshes” closed behind them. The chords of a very unpleasant Klingon opera can be heard.

INT: WIDE SHOT – BAR

A hazy, smoke filled environment. A central, brightly lit bar is the highlight, with beautiful female creatures from various species serving drinks. There is a Vulcan, Klingon, Andorian and an Orion. In the far corner is a gorgeous human-looking dancing girl on stage, complete with pole, performing all sorts of provocative moves. She has attracted a small group of onlookers. We close in on Kirk and Spock, as Scotty approaches. He has a drink in each hand.

KIRK: One’s not enough, Mr. Scott?

SCOTTY: I figured I’d make up for not gettin’ us here sooner! Quite frankly I was snoring at Warp 6, but 6.5 could’a gotten us here yesterday!

Scotty continues on his way as Kirk and Spock sit at a nearby booth. There is an irridescent blue plant in the middle of the table giving off a slight hum. It is barely audible, save for Spock’s acute sense of hearing…he leans towards the plant slightly and touches it. The hum changes pitch and a smile forms on his face. An employee of the establishment approaches…

KIRK: Well, hello there beautiful…

SPOCK: Captain…

She says nothing to either of them, and turns and leaves abruptly.

KIRK: Wait…I wasn’t…you didn’t even take our order…

SPOCK: Captain…she did.

KIRK: Huh? What the hell…

SPOCK: Your drink will be here momentarily, Captain.

KIRK: Help me out here, Spock…what am I missing?

Kirk looks puzzled for a moment, then…

KIRK: …hang on a second…they’re frigging telepaths, aren’t they?

SPOCK: You are correct. And we require their assistance.

KIRK: Their assistance? With what? Spock, how is a room full of beautifully enticing creatures like this…going to help us?

SPOCK: They are much more than telepathic, Jim…all will be explained soon. Please inform me if you notice anyone wearing a large blue pendant around their neck…

KIRK: A what? Spock, you’re not making any sense…

SPOCK: No matter…I shall seek him out.

Spock gets up and leaves the booth. A moment later, some commotion and a Starfleet officer falls into the other side of the booth after tripping over a nearby table and chairs.

KIRK: Hey…easy, easy…are you ok?

The man composes himself, obviously drunk…

MITCHELL: Ya, I’m fine. Just fine…Commander Gary Mitchell, USS Republic…

KIRK: Jim Kirk…Enterprise…

MITCHELL: Kirk? Kirk…ya… I heard about you…youngest officer to command a starship…straight out of the Academy. What brings you all the way out here, flyboy?

KIRK: I heard the food was good.

MITCHELL: Oh, a smart-ass too…well take a look around, bud…that’s not all that’s decent here…

He motions over Kirks shoulder to the dancing girl. Kirk turns slightly, and does a double-take as he notices Scotty up on stage swinging around the dancers’ pole and cavorting with her.

KIRK (Chuckling): Looks like they do good business here…I guess gambling would be somewhat unethical…

MITCHELL: Ya, they make up for it in other ways…you know, every time I come here it seems I get carried out by stretcher! I mean, there’s no such thing as popping in for just a couple of quick drinks…

KIRK: I wonder why?

There is a pause, then the two burst into laughter.

MITCHELL: “We’re Thinking…You’re Drinking” You know I’ve been here a half dozen times and never got that until now…

KIRK: I don’t think they want you to!

Suddenly the music comes to a halt and the lights dim up and down repeatedly.

MITCHELL: What the hell?

In an instant, a quick shimmer can be seen over all of the workers in the establishment. The shimmer fades, and in their place are tall, slender beings with unusually large heads. Veins can be seen pumping through their large ugly craniums, and they all wear a shiny, silvery type of garment.

CUT TO:

SCOTTY ON STAGE

We see Scotty’s expression change from shear delight to utter horror in an instant as he is now entangled with the dancer…he lets out a ghastly scream!

CUT TO:

KIRK AND MITCHELL – WATCHING SCOTTY”S ANTICS ON STAGE

MITCHELL: One of yours?

KIRK: Ya, I may have to start looking for a new chief engineer! I know I’d never recover from that…

More laughter from the two as Spock approaches…

SPOCK: Captain, I have sucessfully located The Keeper…

Suddenly, a telepathic message is heard throughout the establishment:

“Please remain calm, our planet is passing through a magnetic storm which is affecting our ability to project illusion. We will be fully functional in a few moments…we thank you for visiting Talos IV”

180. bignate - January 22, 2010

I liked what a few earlier posts alluded to with the idea of a fundamentalism allegory, but I fear the tone of the new federation wouldn’t work for that. I never thought about it until I saw the new film, but one thing that was intergral to the tone of TOS was that the federation and the crew of the enterprise were explorers and scientists first, reluctant warriors thrown into the fray but willing to fight for the ideals they believed in. The Federation going forward from the end of the new film has a much more militaristic feel that I think it would seem difficult to just disregard as having been a temporary necessity of the Nero conflict.

181. patrick - January 22, 2010

although i like many things about STAR TREK 2009, the Uhura-Spock relationship isn’t one of them. it feels contrived for shock-value and to add another story element to the lone female-TOS character. although that’s a laudable goal, for sure.

and it adds another distracting element to Saldana’s performance-angle on Uhura. all sassy and cool. like another contestant on America’s Top Model. all attitude.

to my tastes, i’m afraid it doesn’t at all compare favorably to the incredible dignity that Nichelle Nichols imbibed so completely into her Uhura.

182. Sundae - January 22, 2010

to my tastes, i’m afraid it doesn’t at all compare favorably to the incredible dignity that Nichelle Nichols imbibed so completely into her Uhura.

You do realize that Nichelle’s Uhura was not allowed to be “sassy and cool” due to her being black, right? I will assume that you haven’t read anything about Nichelle’s struggles with her position and character on ST during the 1960′s, otherwise you wouldn’t have made that comment.

183. Will_H - January 22, 2010

I love the fact that Bob’s honest about saying that he thinks the Shatner scene would have worked. I wouldn’t think of it so much as a cameo but a small yet important scene. As for the Uhura/Spock relationship, it felt forced to me. I really hope they drop it in the next movie to. When you think about it, in any kind of military organization its almost universally banned for a higher ranked officer to have a relationship with a lower ranked, at least on something like a starship. I think in Star Trek, at least in TOS, all romances for the most part were external. If anything it seems like they should put nurse Chappel in there and stick to what seemed to work better. In terms of the Uhura/Spock kiss being the first interspecies kiss…well I guess the writers never spent much time watching Enterprise. Afraid they missed things by close a 100 years. And honestly for me the whole Tpol/Trip relationship felt much more natural to me, and I don’t think I’ll ever accept the whole Uhura/Spock thing. Oh yeah, he was her teacher, that seems a little bit more messed up.

184. nada - January 22, 2010

lee, the movie is still star trek (it has all the major players) genetics or not. If you want to persue the issue of genetics and how they partain to this universe please explain Sulu (how he went from being Japanese to being Korean). This universe is different. It cannot possibly be the same. Vulcan is gone, Amanda is gone, the crew of the Enterprise came together under different circumstances… In the end, it is not so much genetics that is shaping this universe – it is the events that are taking place inside it. To me it is different from Tos but still recognizable because it has the same players.

185. bana - January 22, 2010

I think the relationship between Spock and Uhura in the Reboot goes where TOS couldn’t go when it had originally been aired. It’s long been documented, and by Nichelle Nichols herself, that Uhura was purposefully shortchanged to the point people could dismiss her as mere set dressing or an “intergalactic telephone operator.” Except if anyone could look beyond was what there on the surface, one could see there is clear regard for the only senior female officer on the bridge. There were many conferences around Uhura’s console; Kirk actually apologizes to her after snapping at her (The Naked Time); McCoy rarely snaps at her when he’s quick to do so to everyone else (Tholian Web); Spock is always checking on her whenever there is turbulence–and has no problem initiating physical contact with her (See “Tomorrow Is Yesterday” and “The Immunity Syndrome” for starters). All three of them were indignant when Nomad wiped out her mind (“The Changeling”–even still, in the episode when Scotty comes back alive, his first concern is of Uhura!) and everyone was not happy when she’d been backhanded by one of Khan’s henchmen in “Space Seed”. In regards to the Spock/Uhura romantic pairing; one could say this is either an extension of what was already subtly going in TOS or a logic choice to make considering the dynamic between them. Nichols herself said she fashioned Spock to be her mentor, and it seemed Nimoy did not mind such a decision. Why else could Uhura openly tease him and get a smile and essentially permission to do so in “Charlie X”, or can chastise him without Spock dismissing her concerns in “The Man Trap”; she is the only person other than him to learn how to play the Vulcan Lute (“Conscience of the King”); he compliments her in “Who Mourns for Adonais?” and actually quotes Byron to her in “Is There in Truth No Beauty?”

There is a rapport between them; maybe it isn’t as overt as his rapport with Kirk or McCoy, but it is there. She is a smart woman (she dismantled the communications console by herself in “This Side of Paradise”) and she’s been included in confabs on the bridge (“The Trouble with Tribbles”, “Spock’s Brain”, “Operation: Annihlate”, “Bread and Circuses”).

As for the Reboot, I’m glad Uhura is more overtly feminine without sacrificing her brilliance, although I wish we could’ve seen Uhura intercept the Klingon message or even speak a few Romulan/Vulcan words (I think hearing Uhura hail in Romulan would’ve been wonderful or the scene in the turbolift would’ve been perfect for Vulcan) to show her adeptness with languages.

I hope you do not abandon this relationship in the subsequent films. I do agree I hope there is more McCoy in the other films, but not at the expense of the other characters, namely Uhura. All seven of them had a wonderful rapport in TOS, and I think that should be continued instead of drifting into the Kirk and Spock show, featuring McCoy with the others being glorified set props–especially Sulu and Uhura. It was disappointing but understandable in the 1960s; there’s no such reason for that in the 2000s.

186. Damian - January 22, 2010

The whole Spock/Uhura thing just does not bother me a whole lot. And I consider myself somewhat of a purist. New universe anything can happen. As noted the only thing that bothered me was set design (which I admit is a bit nitpicky). Scott Chambliss’ designs would be great in almost any sci-fi film, but they did not work for me for Star Trek. And I do not see how Uhura would affect Spock and Kirk’s relationship. I got the impression the Kirk had moved on by the end and I did not get a sense he was sore with Spock.

187. Damian - January 22, 2010

How about a Scott Bakula cameo in the new movie as a very aged Admiral Archer. Nothing major, maybe something like Admiral Janeway in “Nemesis” where he is simply giving Kirk his next mission. Bakula seemed pleasantly surprised when interviewed a few weeks ago when Archer was mentioned and he seemed open to a cameo.

188. cj - January 22, 2010

boborci,

As a black woman, a sci-fi fan, and a movie fanatic who has watched lots of films from childhood on, where the possibility of attraction was hinted at, but never gone after full-steam, where the black woman was, when she existed, “the black friend” with no relationship at all…

…I was shocked, SHOCKED, that a black woman was not only the main woman in the film, but she wasn’t drug-addled, victimized, in need of saving (in fact she pretty much helped save Spock during his moment), nor was she too dignified, strong, sassy, etc to have a normal relationship.

She was not only the main female but an ambitious, thoughtful, loving, gorgeous, popular geek!

You have to understand, that knocked me off my feet because I’d never seen that!

To just be a person, without the caveat of living up to what Hollywood typically sees black women as: sassy, neck-swerving, “strong”, fat, mean, single, mostly invisible victims…or Halle Berry.

I finally saw someone *close* to myself up on screen.

Just two geeks in love…*finally* in 2009. :)

Roddenberry had the guts to put Uhura in the position she was back in the 60′s, despite the naysayers and the deniers that these kinds of women existed and he helped make history.

Don’t let the naysayers convince you to veer off-course.

189. GeekGirl - January 22, 2010

Now hang on a minute here, #111 (and some of the others). I’m a smart!girl, a linguist IRL even, and have no problem identiifying with Uhura. And I don’t mind how she was portrayed in the movie. I liked her. If it were all just that, I’d like S/U, because sure, on one level it’s kind of cool to think about somebody like you getting Spock. But that’s shallow and not the point. The point is how much is messes up Spock’s character. Now you might think, but all the characters are changed! And this is true. But in the other cases, the things that made them fundamentally themselves are still there. Even Kirk, who had a /completely/ different history, has the same personality rather nicely fitted into a new form. And Spock does too, except that the ‘same personality’ he has is one it took his counterpart half a lifetime to reach–but he’s supposed to be ‘younger and more raw’?

It makes me feel like they don’t respect the characters as much as they should–that the ‘failing franchise’ is the part they see instead of the enormous potential and most importantly, its heart. Adding new effects and bells and whistles and even good actors who did a great job got them started, and it was a whole lot of fun, but it won’t last if Trek becomes a soap opera in space. Not even for that sexy sexy Enterprise and Chris Pine’s baby blues do I want to see them screw up /Spock/.

I understand the nufans who don’t understand how deeply the changes affect the whole characterization. ZQ did a good job, and within the confines of that one single movie, it all worked pretty well. It’s when you realize what it means for what is possibly the most iconic character in science fiction ever that you think, hey, wait a second, what’s going on here? They don’t have to keep everything the same and that’s fine–much as I like TOS it’s very dated and the sexism drives me crazy–but the essence of it still needs to be kept, or it isn’t Star Trek at all.

190. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

“4) #159- are you freakin’ serious? We can’t accept Kirk because Uruha likes Spock better?”

Not just “freakin’ serious” but “effing serious” as well. But the point was a little more subtle that what you took away from what I wrote, and the subtlety holds the important things.

Although I liked young Kirk in ST.09, he was immature and fratboyish, two qualities that do not exactly scream “Starship Captain material.” And the behavior of both Uhura and Spock to Kirk was what you would expect towards a frat boy. They were dismissive.

And all of those things do not fit well together. So I guess I have to repeat that what made Kirk get the girls in TOS are precisely those things that Kirk Pine lacked in ST.09, and it’s not going to help the credibility of his character if you leave him in the next movie the way he was in ST.09, and if you change him, then that change should register in his relationships with other characters as well.

Unless you are going to turn Kirk into a total jackass ready to lose command, you can’t play him like that indefinitely, and if he changes, then relationships to him will change as well.

I mean, sure, you can write characters anyway you want. But you can’t write them anyway you want and still keep them believable.

I am for NO relationships between the bridge crew other than familial ones, except possibly for Dr. McCoy, who was more deserving and yet still got less ass even than the circuit-board brained Mr. Spock.

Although from that big old smile Uhura gave Kirk when he boarded the shuttle, I wouldn’t mind a Moonlighting type tension to play out between them in the sequels.

In addition, in TOS Kirk was a man who did have serious relationships, but who also flirted about quite frequently. But the flirting doesn’t make him a ho. He had serious relationships with women he chose to leave behind for his career, like Janice Lester, and relationships with women he genuinely loved: Edith Keeler and Miramanee, come to mind.

He was never James Bond. He was professional towards Rand, he resisted the forced kiss with Uhura, and he enjoyed first subduing and then the physical contact with women who were trying to kill him. Kirk was never a sex addicted dog. He was always in control, except for that incident with the Dohlman, and never a slave to his pee pee.

191. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

Jaxon?

this site is S/K biased? wtf?

192. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

And that, I shuold add, is how I would expect a heroic Captain of Starships, to behave.

193. Bill Peters - January 22, 2010

I love it if we had Kang, Kor, Koloth or the Gorn as the Enemies in the next film, Also the Spock/Uhura thing was fine and love to see a little bit more. Also I think that while other Writers were Great for Star Trek such as Many Coto and Rick Berman and others, I have to say the best in a while have been JJ and Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman. because they created a new fan base and Revived Trek and Gave it new life and new legs for the future!

I say let these good Men play in there Unverse and show us how Great Trek can be again, Even though I would not mind a Direct to DVD or TV move of for Deep Space Nine!

194. Mel - January 22, 2010

184. nada

Sulu is an American, born in San Francisco. Only some forefathers of him were Japanese. And that didn’t change in the new movie. John Cho isn’t Sulu. He is just playing him and in this case he plays an American with Japanese ancestors.

195. ix9000 - January 22, 2010

Spock’s homeworld was destroyed by a (then) unknown threat. Most of his species is dead. How can you excpect him to follow the development of Prime Spock exactly?

The debate of nature vs. nurture continues…..

196. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

@189: Well said GeekGirl.

197. Bill Peters - January 22, 2010

#188 what you have to say is cool, I hope Bob Orci takes what you have to say to heart, Also Anthony I would say this site is not S/K Biased. Also I would say to Bob Orci keep working with the Kirk/Spock/Bones Aspect for the next film I love the watching the relationship we saw in TOS grow into something great! ! As well as the Spock/Uhura thing!

198. cj - January 22, 2010

…A few more thoughts.

I definitely want to see more Bones and the rest of the crew. Please, keep the Spock/Uhura relationship classy and not central to the plot, like the first film.

I want the space adventure, boldly going and exploring! That’s what Trek is about.

And as a Trek fan, I for one am happy to see the fact that Spock is half-human/half-Vulcan; that Vulcans are not devoid of emotions as explored explicitly in the series, is continuing to be so in the reboot.

199. Ruthy Charlot - January 22, 2010

@ nada,

Nada, there are many fans of the Spock/Uhura relationship who were first fans of the old school series.

In many respects, Trek fans do not agree. :)

200. jlneveloff - January 22, 2010

Spock/Uhura Haters are going to hate. There’s nothing you can do about it. They’re going to be vocal and they’re going to be loud so as it seems as though they are vastly outnumbering those that liked something. That’s the problem with online comments, or polls, or whatever. It brings the haters out in full force. They’re going to leave anti-S/U comments and they’re going to dominate the poll on the side of this page…because if you love something, you’re just not going to feel the need to say anything as much. I hope the writers realize that it’s just not feasible to listen to the online fans because they DO NOT represent the fandom as a whole.

Everyone I know who has seen the movie, and this includes nuTrek fans and old Trek fans alike, loved or at least liked, the Spock/Uhura relationship. I personally loved it. I felt that Quinto and Saldana played it beautifully and I didn’t feel as though it took anything away from either character. It didn’t diminish Spock’s Vulcanity and it certainly didn’t make Uhura a weak woman. It gave more depth to the characters.

I love that Uhura was more than just a background character. She meant something to the plot. I love that she was shown as brilliant and desirable at the same time. I love that by giving her a relevance, she helps balance out the film. McCoy keeps Spock in check while, at the same time, Uhura keeps Kirk in check. She is the one by which we base our opinion on Kirk; meaning in the beginning, she doesn’t take him seriously, to the middle where she makes him question himself to the end when she calls him Captain and MEANS it. (I hope this makes sense because I’m just having a hard time wording it).

I wonder when people are going to realize that reboot Spock and Spock Prime are NOT the same character anymore. Even Nimoy commented on this at a convention. They have experienced different things, their lives have taken different routes….and our experiences shape who we are. And I don’t understand how Uhura can mess up Spock and Kirk’s relationship….because they are two different relationships. I don’t understand how people can say that Uhura is messing up the Spock/Kirk dynamic and ultimate friendship…but at the same time, McCoy doesn’t? Because Kirk and McCoy did not attend the academy together so they really shouldn’t be as close friends at this point in time as they seem to be.

The whole ‘Oedipus’ comment regarding Spock and Uhura that the writers have made here…doesn’t really seem to match up with what the writers said earlier when the film came out or even in the DVD commentary, so it’s leaving me scratching my head.

Backing off the Spock/Uhura relationship, after spending so much time contemplating even adding it into the movie in the first place, to me, speaks of cowardice. So, some fans didn’t like it. But it wasn’t everyone. A lot of people loved it. If so many people hated it, it wouldn’t have done as well as it did. So, I hope the writers don’t cave to the haters just to make them happy. That said, however, Spock/Uhura should not be a main focus, but more subtle. I love the subtlety of their relationship in the first film and I don’t think it needs any more than that.

201. patHuntingtonNY - January 22, 2010

The villain in the next movie should be Jonsey the Cat from Aliens!

202. Jeyl - January 22, 2010

@144: Correction: Shields were up, thus saving the ship, but they are not the bubble force field shields of years past. Instead, they strengthen the hull itself.

I’m sorry, but I’m just not convinced. Slow moving debris from destroyed vessels that make big dents and tear panels off by the mere touch doesn’t really enforce your ‘Shields were up, thus saving the ship’ argument. If the shields work to make the hull that strong (i.e. not strong at all), then just how strong is the hull in general? Is it made out of plastic? If you’re saying that slow moving debris is all it would take to destroy a starship in less than three seconds, than I don’t see why the Enterprise itself doesn’t tear itself apart when it docks with space dock or simply moves around.

In any other Trek where the shields were energy fields, this scene would be a perfect example of what a ship would go through if the shields were not up. The hull is exposed to the dangers of space and any debris that comes in contact with the ship causes scratches and dents.

Also, if the shields only make the hull stronger, they’re not shields. If the hull is what’s protecting the ship, then it’s called ‘armor’. Or as the series (Please god, not this series) ENTERPRISE called it “Polarized Hull Plating”, which fits the very definition you yourself state in that “electromagnetic power could be applied to the materials, making them several orders of magnitude harder.” The difference here is that Enterprise didn’t call them shields. In Trek09, you do. it’s like calling a raincoat a radiation suit.

203. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

See, I think Kirk is a great character by himself, but Spock is a great character in connection with Kirk — I ca’;t see Spock carrying a series, for instance, but I CAN see Kirk carrying one — and that’s why you see Kirk in the lead. And the same qualities that make him a great leader, and of course the actor who plays him being a young movie star that the girls seem to go ga ga over, you would presume that female characters would have the same attraction as the females in the audience have, such that even if there’s no overt relationship between Kirk and Uhura there should at least be the tension of a possible relationship between them, and if it doesn’t exist then it wouldn’t seem as real.

If you cement Uhura to Spock you remove that possibility, and then its not as fun to see what happens next.

Its better to keep the possibilities open rather than to close them off.

And they DID create that tension. That was such a lovely smile Uhura gave Kirk when he boarded the shuttle. A smile he seemed to pull out of her despite her wish to withhold it at first

204. boborci - January 22, 2010

202. Jeyl – January 22, 2010
@144: Correction: Shields were up, thus saving the ship, but they are not the bubble force field shields of years past. Instead, they strengthen the hull itself.

I’m sorry, but I’m just not convinced.

——

Pike raised the shields. It’s canon, as they say. They were also immediately attacked by Nero.

205. P Technobabble - January 22, 2010

Consider any ensemble cast from any on-going tv show, and you will probably get an episode that focuses on one cast member, then another episode that focuses on another cast member, and so on. When you are doing a 2 hour movie, you don’t have time to give each cast member a “starring” role. Consider all of the previous Trek films. The supporting cast complained quite a bit in TMP and TWOK that they really had nothing to do (with the exception of Chekov in TWOK). In TSFS, there was a deliberate attempt to give each member a “spot,” and that carried over in TVH. I believe Leonard Nimoy had a lot to do with that because these were his fellows, and he was really trying to give them more to do, something that helped drive those stories, because he cared about them as fellow actors.
I think Orci and Kurtzman managed to give each of the supporting cast something to do that made sense in the story — not just give them a moment to make sure we knew they were there. I, like many others, would love to have seen a bit more of McCoy, but Trek09 was really a Kirk/Spock film… very much like the first season of TOS was focused on Kirk and Spock. The remainder of the cast are “co-stars,” supporting players. It would be impossible to spend a great deal of time focusing on all of them without having to make a 4 hour movie. And so they are, in a sense, relegated to a shorter amount of screen-time. As long as they are doing more than just “Hailing frequencies open,” and “Aye, course laid in,” I think they’re doing ok.
As for the Spock/Uhura fling, I don’t have any great problem with it from the perspective that we are seeing all of these characters in an undeveloped state. We don’t typically presume that when TOS began airing that we were seeing the very first mission. We were getting those characters already settled in their skin, to some degree. Spock, most of all, developed even more over time. In the TOS days, Spock was the character so many woman were attracted to Spock — moreso than Kirk — because there was something so mysterious and elusive about him. It makes perfect sense that Uhura would have been one of those women. In Trek 09, we got to see Uhura somewhat more boldly express those feelings because she sympathized with Spock’s sorrow AND the fact that, as a Vulcan, he wouldn’t show it. And, at the risk of getting my butt kicked, I thought she behaved the way any woman might behave — that “motherly instinct” coming through. Does this mean the relationship will, or must, blossom into something? I don’t think so. There are so many possibilities now, there are so many directions Star Trek can go, thanks to this alternate “clean slate.”

206. jlneveloff - January 22, 2010

I want to add.

The single most important relationship is indeed Spock and Kirk’s friendship…but that shouldn’t mean that the movies become solely the Spock/Kirk show. They should be allowed to have other relationships, romantic or otherwise without it taking over the plot. I loved the dynamic of the entire cast in this movie and I hope it’s explored further in the sequel.

207. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

@202: Jeyl, you gut hung up over minutiae. 100 years ago what we call a mirror was then called a looking glass. Who uses those words today?

Shields, polarized hull plating, armadillo mode, who CARES what you call it?

208. Damian - January 22, 2010

Here’s a fanboy idea for a sequel:

Have Admiral Archer kidnapped by the Klingons, Klingons who infiltrate Starfleet because they look like humans. As an elderly high ranking admiral, he has valuable information, and the Klingons have many scores to settle with him over the last 100 years. Captain Kor would be in charge of the interrogation but he cannot use normal techniques because of his age and they obviously do not want to kill him, yet.

Captain Kirk is charged with trying to find him. There is a little hero worship because Archer captained the first starship Enterprise. Kirk is highly motivated to find him. He has to travel to an unexplored sector to try to find clues where he is at and at times has to decide if he is willing to sacrifice Starfleet ideals to find him.

Ambassador Sarek is also aboard, since his diplomatic expertise may be needed when making first contact. Sarek and another Vulcan (or human for that matter) have become involved. This begins to upset Spock, who does not have the emotional control that he did in the prime universe. He feels his father is betraying the memory of his mother and a schism develops between them (much like in the prime universe where they did not speak for years). His father criticises his lack of emotional control and notes that had he gone to the Science Academy as he wanted, Spock would have better control. Spock then notes had he done that he would probably have been dead. Sarek eventually finds information where Archer is being held by friendly aliens who do not like the Klingons and he remains on the planet to negotiate new trade relations with them. Sarek and Spock will not reconcile their differences for years. Spock takes comfort with his relationship with Uhura and in an ironic twist finds better emotional control when he is with her.

They eventually discover where Archer is being held. However they must battle Klingon Warships in orbit of a frozen wasteland where Archer is being held. They eventually prevail but they cannot beam Archer aboard due to an energy shield around the planet (similar to ST VI). They travel by shuttlecraft but only get to within a few kilometers before being shot down. They walk the rest of the way and fiercely battle several Klingons before rescuing Archer. However, Kirk is gravely wounded. Spock orders the rest of the team to get Archer to safety at all costs but he refuses to leave Kirk’s side. He orders the team to get help to them as soon as they get to the ship. Kirk is in shock and his temperature is dropping dangerously. Spock takes off his own coat and lays it over Kirk to help keep him warm. After a few hours a new shuttlecraft arrives. Kirk is near death as is Spock due to the intense cold. Eventually McCoy is able to save them both.

Kirk then realizes just how loyal Vulcans are (as noted in “The Menagerie) and thanks Spock for saving his life almost at the cost of his own. Spock then tells him that he was making sure the ship’s captain is able to return to duty. Kirk stares at him with a look that shows he does not believe him for one minute. Kirk and Spock’s relationship is solidified from that point on.

My idea would circle primarily around the crew of the Enterprise, with Archer serving as sort of a Maguffin in something more than a cameo role. It would include the Klingons and Kor as villains and would involve an exploration bent with the Enterprise having to travel somewhere unexplored. It would also cement Kirk and Spock’s relationship and begin the schism between Spock and Sarek, though for different reasons. Older fans would recognize some elements from the original series as well as Archer from “Enterprise”, but you would not have to have seen those shows to follow the story. Archer would simply be a plot devise easily recognized by Star Trek fans, but not important for new fans.

This is obviously a purely fan idea and a very loose outline. Obviously the remainder of the crew would have important roles. I figure many have already thrown ideas around and this is my amateurish idea.

209. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

200: “Spock/Uhura Haters are going to hate. There’s nothing you can do about it. They’re going to be vocal and they’re going to be loud so as it seems as though they are vastly outnumbering those that liked something. That’s the problem with online comments, or polls, or whatever. It brings the haters out in full force. They’re going to leave anti-S/U comments and they’re going to dominate the poll on the side of this page…because if you love something, you’re just not going to feel the need to say anything as much. I hope the writers realize that it’s just not feasible to listen to the online fans because they DO NOT represent the fandom as a whole.”

Haha. But your comments do?

Seems to me what haters do is to diminish the points of view of those whom they disagree with, no matter how well reasoned their perspectives are, by calling them names like “haters”.

Sticks and stones, mate. Sticks and stones.

210. Mist - January 22, 2010

@203 I beg to differ on what the fangirls go gaga over. I’m a Spock girl all the way and I love S/U.

I am all for keeping the possibilities open but you have to realize this isn’t a TV show. We’re only going to get a movie once every 2-3 years and the “will they won’t they” tension has been done and is only effective if you have the time to devote to it. Besides, there are other characters from TOS who could be brought back to give this kind of tension (Ran/Kirk, anyone?).

I’d also like to say to all the commenters here. Why can’t Uhura be a strong and intelligent woman with a love interest? The movie shows her as being all these things and as a female viewer this is the kind of thing I am excited about. This is a real woman here, folks. In fact, giving her “will they won’t they” tension with Kirk or whatever other crew member of the Enterprise is something I would say moreso makes her out to be only an object of attraction.

211. Mel - January 22, 2010

@ 185. bana

You know everyone can interpret something into series they wish was there. K/S fans are the best example for this. They watch TOS and see some big romance between Kirk and Spock despite Kirk having one woman after another and Spock some, too. If you don’t agree with them you wonder how they could get to this conclusion.

The same is the case for S/U in TOS. You see it because you want to see it. I on the other hand don’t see anything in TOS which let me to believe that there was more than a good friendship between Spock and Uhura. Personally I think there is more basis for a Spock/Chapel relationship. At least Chapel shows some interest in Spock.

212. jlneveloff - January 22, 2010

@209 I never said my comment represent the fandom as a whole. No need to put words in my mouth.

213. Damian - January 22, 2010

Everyone is so hung up about Spock and Uhura. How about some of the other characters. I’d love to see Scotty develop more. In the original series he did have some comic relief, but he was tough as nails. Remember “A Taste of Armageddon” where he told Ambassador Fox that he will NOT lower the shields. He was also a genius who could build a warp engine out of some carboard and duct tape.

214. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

210: Yeah, well I’ve read more than enough comments of fangirls’ reaction to Chris Pine to know what I said was true none the less.

“Why can’t Uhura be a strong and intelligent woman with a love interest?”

She CAN. The focus of our comments haven’t been about the availability of UHURA, but the radical change in the character of SPOCK, whose character features are way more important than the design of the Enterprise, which they adhered more closely to.

More power to Uhura. Hook her up with McCoy. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than Spock does. And it’s certainly not like they gave McCoy TOO MUCH to do in ST.09.

McCoy is one of the best and most neglected main characters. Sort of like Uhura. Give them something to do together.

“This is a real woman here, folks. In fact, giving her “will they won’t they” tension with Kirk or whatever other crew member of the Enterprise is something I would say moreso makes her out to be only an object of attraction.”

No. That would also apply to Kirk, if that were true, but it all depends on how it’s written. The tension between Scully and Mulder in the X Files was great. It deepened the characters and made them more interesting without reducing either character to some mere “object of attraction.”

So I totally disagree with you on how it would appear.

215. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

vote gary mitchell

please stop spamming the site with your links.

216. Teenie - January 22, 2010

#203

I disagree with that sentiment. I’m a female and would take Spock over Kirk any day of the week and twice on Sunday’s.

I loved that Uhura didn’t fall for the womanizing Kirk. She’s not a “ga ga” kind of girl, falling over herself for Kirk’s attention–and thank goodness for that!

Uhura not being romantically interested in Kirk doesn’t make the situation not seem real. Realistic maybe, that Kirk wouldn’t be her type and Spock would.

217. Dom - January 22, 2010

No problems with Spock/Uhura. Watch Charlie X: there was loads of flirting going on there!!!!!

From a personal point of view, I’d like the next movie to have the gang fully established and comfortable working together. Let’s see them at the stage they were in season one of the original show, where Kirk is a calmer, more confident man than the boy-becomes-man of ST09.

218. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

212: “@209 I never said my comment represent the fandom as a whole. No need to put words in my mouth.”

I’m not putting words in your mouth, but your line of argument seemed to suggest that we should distrust the poll BECAUSE of the majority opinion, which you don’t like. Would you be making that argument if it were in your favor?

It doesn’t seem more scientific to me to read the poll and then conclude the opposite of what it says is true.

If that poll is all we’ve got to judge opinion, then that’s the best we got, like it or not.

219. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

RE: shields

this issue actually came up in an interview i did with bob/alex when we were given an exclusive image of the Kelvin, way back in Oct 08. Here is the exchange

TrekMovie: Here is a nerdy Trek question. In the history of Trek shields have been shown both as a bubble around the ship and as a skin clinging to the hull. It is hard to see from this image if there are any shield effects, but in the new Star Trek which approach is used?

Kurtzman: We have always thought of them as more like skin, less like bubble.

Orci: The bubble represents energy fields — signature, but not necessarily the physical shape of the shield.

http://trekmovie.com/2008/10/16/exclusive-orci-and-kurtzman-talk-to-trekmovie-about-uss-kelvin-and-kirks-shirt-new-kelvin-image/

220. GarySeven - January 22, 2010

First off these guys do seem like very nice and good guys.
I agree completely with #7 – Garen.
When a movie comes on TV, my four year old asks me “Dad, is he a good guy or a bad guy?”
Please don’t make this movie with that sensibility. This is Star Trek.
No villains. The best movies are when we challenge ourselves. I just rewatched the Voyage Home. I realized that the basic idea (not all the particulars) was wonderful. It was about man saving himself from his own short-sightedness. The probe wasn’t even malevolent, just destructive. Same with V’ger, or as was pointed out, in TUC the true villain was prejudice.
Not another Nero, even if he’s a more fleshed out enemy. Save it for Transformers III if you need to get a villain out of your systems. Please protect my Star Trek. Thanks guys.

221. Teenie - January 22, 2010

#214

So basically you want to ping pong Uhura around. Uhura is not a plaything that needs to bounce from Spock to McCoy, all the while keeping a “tension” between her and Kirk.

As a woman, I take offense to your blatant sexism.

222. recumbentgoat - January 22, 2010

Well, having been a long time Star Trek dabbler–I’m really really happy with the steps Orci/Kurtzman/Abrams took with the reboot.

I love the fact that’s it was an AU and not a remake. lol It’s great for fanfic writers cuz it really frees us to write our own scenarios–no matter who they ship.

Because of the movie, I’ve started writing (TOS S/U though) and participating in fandom on LiveJournal– and for the most part it’s been a great experience with a few big bumps in the way.

One thing that I hope is addressed in the sequel is fleshing out some minor characters–I for one would love to see a nuChapel, Riley, Rand, Charlene Masters, etc. even if it’s just a line or in passing. omg that would be such a meaty bone to throw to fanfic writers. XD

Originally Roddenberry had wanted TOS to be more of an ensemble but had to focus on the main two/three because of the times. The new movie addressed some of that by giving Sulu, Chekov and Uhura some key scenes–one of which was pairing Uhura with Spock–which was truly the best Christmas/birthday present ever for me. lol

I really hope that O/K, etc will keep this relationship going–it certainly doesn’t have to be a cornerstone like it was initially between S/U/K– but it’d really be nice to have a stable relationship depicted–since it would highlight Kirk’s womanizing rather well.

Please for the love of god–no KHAN! Ricardo Montalban was so awesome with his muscly bare chest and I think he should just own that corner of ST moviedom. Move on to a new villain–TOS was littered with them. Daystrom, Kang, Korby, Gary Mitchell, the Archons, the Gorn, Tholians– the Horta even– omg the HORTA!! XD

I think the sequel should have the bromance between Kirk and Spock–I think they can have a new kind of relationship–where Kirk can learn a lot from Spock even though he’s the one that became captain. I really hope that O/K don’t make the same mistake of turning Spock into a hand-wringing ‘tragic mulatto’ that TOS Spock was over his human ancestry. Plenty of folks are bi-racial/cultural/etc and it’s not their character flaw. I think Spock is a savvy observer and his time spent on Earth, having a human mother and human relatives are going to make him more insightful than other humans give him credit for. though honestly, that’s my own take on both TOS/reboot Spock.

And finally, Uhura. Gloriously brilliant, sexy B.A.M.F. Uhura. Please cut her ponytail off for the next movie. PLEASE! I think that TOS Uhura’s cute ‘fro or short hair from 3rd season was adorable. And I think it’d be a quick way to show that she’s gone from pretty cadet to mature bridge officer in a few cuts. And bridge officers see ACTION! so if there’s gonna be action–give Uhura a chance to warm the captain’s chair and make a few command decisions while Spock, Kirk are out saving the universe. TOS Uhura was 4th in command but never got a chance to sit in the chair.

If she’s near an action scene? Please don’t let her stand around and wait for the boys to rescue her! She knows how to handle herself–even in the episode Mirror Mirror, she knew how to smack a ho like m!Sulu and wield a knife. As part of the bridge crew–I think she should have some combat training and be able to show her courage and coolness under pressure.

Speaking of which–heh heh no pressure for this sequel huh?! XD Good luck! lol S/U ‘shippers represent!!!

223. Jeyl - January 22, 2010

@207: “what we call a mirror was then called a looking glass. Who uses those words today?”

At least they’re both the same thing. Armor and shields are not.

“Shields, polarized hull plating, armadillo mode, who CARES what you call it?”

Honor is in the details. You don’t need it to tell a good story, but it helps if you don’t want the story to sound dumb.

224. jlneveloff - January 22, 2010

@218 Who says that the online fandom/polls represent the majority of fans? And yes, actually I would probably make the same argument if it was going in my ‘favor’ as you put it. You cannot necessarily take online polls as ‘representative of the majority’ because they can be fixed via bots, etc. How else can Twilight keep winning all the online polls, for example…

But it’s late where I am and I’m probably not thinking too clearly to make my arguments bulletproof, but my opinion that backing off the S/U relationship in the sequel because some online polls and comments dislike wpuld still speak of cowardice to me. But that’s just my opinion. :) I’m going to bed.

225. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

217: And look at Enemy Within in which Spock unromantically spurned Uhura’s advances. Then look at Plato’s Stepchildren where Uhura voluntarily confesses how safe Kirk always made her feel. Then look at Naked Time in which even under the influence of a virus Spock couldn’t let himself succumb to Nurse Chapel’s affections.

Just look at every scene where Spock was bewitched under the influence of this or that force, and it is something that he has to RECOVER from to regain himself and his composure.

In ST.09 however, he’s just in lousy control of his feelings and indeed, Quinto played him very much on edge throughout the movie, almost like a pointy eared Dirty Harry, while Kirk looked like he should have been stuck on the end of a long stick and used for a mop.

226. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

RE: polling and comments
as i have noted before, commenters are a tiny tiny tiny fraction of visitors to this site (and all sites really) it is like talk radio, how many really call in.

it is my view that commenters lean toward the more motivated and certainly those who are more agitated about one thing or the other and feel the need to vent.

polling is also a small fraction of visitors, but is a larger pool as most voters do not comment.

btw, it looks like as of now a majority are either OK or like the U/S thing, even though a plurality voted dont like it, so there isnt consensus there either

227. Damian - January 22, 2010

#219–To me, the shield as bubble thing seemed to start with the Next Generation, a little over a hunded years in the future yet. So for me this is not a canon issue. Enterprise had hull plating and the original series version of shields through the first couple of movies seemed to have the shields as skin idea. So this seems consistent with the timeframe we are dealing with.

228. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

“@218 Who says that the online fandom/polls represent the majority of fans?”

Not me, and that’s why I pointed out it’s the best we got, like it or not. But it is data, and that’s better than none at all. It’s certainly better than making an opposite claim based on NO data.

223: “Honor is in the details. You don’t need it to tell a good story, but it helps if you don’t want the story to sound dumb.”

And that could be an excuse not to do anything different because some nippicky fan will scream bloody murder over it.

They changed how the shields work. Or as Yul Brynner as Pharoah said:

“So let it be written, so let it be done.”

Good enough for me, and with honor intact.

229. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

I don’t know where people are getting the idea that Spock/Uhura didn’t work? “I mean….did you see….the numbers come in from the first movie?” Obviously not.

I went to see the movie myself since my dad had raised us virtually on Trek. I enjoyed every bit of it and actually, particularly the Spock/Uhura parts. It gave the movie a sense of justice, wherein so much had been taken from Spock. Not only that, it helped the audience understand the characters better than we would have without. I would have never understood how emotionally disturbed he was about his mother and planet had not he embraced Uhura back. I cannot understand how the five to eight minutes the two were on screen together caused so much raucus! Evidently they were ingenious together, because it certainly ‘evoked an emotional reaction’ on this thread! LOL!

Anyway, after seeing it myself the first time, I returned and saw the movie three additional times with my family of 5, three additional times with my family plus a friend, my grandmother, and my parents, and and additonal 15 times myself. I’ve never supported any other movie like this…I have to say for the most part…it was in response to the Spock/Uhura relationship. It certainly evoked a postive emotional response in me!

For the writers: Whatever you decide to do, please keep the Spock/Uhura relationship there! It was amazing, the actors had amazing chemistry, and it rounded out the movie for me. The bad guy can go any direction, as I’m sure you will make it entertaining, but keep the relationship. You don’t know how many people I’ve turned into Trekkies (Trekkers) just because of it! Taking that out would certainly cause a major loss of viewers!

:)

230. Teenie - January 22, 2010

#222

Why can’t Uhura still be effective with long hair? Why does her hair have to be cut to show that she’s matured into a bridge officer? I’m seriously scratching my head at this so much. Do you suggest that Zoe wear a fro wig, a la, Beyonce in The Spy Who Shagged Me in order to show that she’s had personal growth? Is there something wrong with being a pretty bridge officer with long hair?

Should they alter her body type to fit what TOS Uhura’s was, chop her legs off at the knees so that she’s the same height as Nichelle was in TOS? Maybe Scotty should wear a toupee, and Spock should wax his stubble.

Yes, sarcasm, but my sentiment is overreaching. I don’t see the need for Reboot Uhura’s signature ponytail to be chopped off to show professional growth.

231. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

“btw, it looks like as of now a majority are either OK or like the U/S thing, even though a plurality voted dont like it, so there isnt consensus there either”

I voted didn’t like it, but that’s more for concern for the future. I could easily have voted okay with it if I restricted my attention to ST.09 alone, because I love the movie and S/U doesn’t screw it up.

But I voted I didn’t like it because I can see how S/U CAN screw things up, as there is a chance that it can in the next movie.

232. PunkSpocker - January 22, 2010

I loved TOS when Spock cut loose and dabbled on the wild side. The Uhura angle seemed to work for me for these reasons. It will create good conflict in the next film. That relationship cannot last. I agree with the dude above me #220.

233. Damian - January 22, 2010

#222–I’m ok with the idea myself, kind of a reboot, prequel, but also a sequel to all that has come before

However, a small part of me wante to see how Kirk took command in the prime universe occurred (I have read “Enterprise, The First Adventure”). I would love to have seen the original Enterprise in all her 60′s glory on the big screen in the new movie (much like “In a Mirror, Darkly” episode of Enterprise). But I understand why the writer’s went the way they did. I mean that kind of story would have strictly appealed to Star Trek fans alone. That’s fine for a TV show, like Enterprise, but for a big budget film, you need broad based appeal.

But hey, maybe we could get the actors to play an origin story in the prime universe for a television movie with the original sets. Just sayin:)

234. T'Khem - January 22, 2010

LOVED the Spock/Uhura relationship!! As as a Trek fan from the ’60s, I know it was supposed to be them, but the studio wouldn’t let Roddenbery do it. So well done, and keep them together! But it shouldn’t be the plot, just a side thing.

235. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

229: “For the writers: Whatever you decide to do, please keep the Spock/Uhura relationship there! It was amazing, the actors had amazing chemistry, and it rounded out the movie for me. The bad guy can go any direction, as I’m sure you will make it entertaining, but keep the relationship. You don’t know how many people I’ve turned into Trekkies (Trekkers) just because of it! Taking that out would certainly cause a major loss of viewers!”

And there would probably be a loss of viewers if they keep it in.

I implore Bob to do what’s best for the story and the characters, and ignore BOTH the Spock girls who want to see their personal fantasies materialize on screen, AND those like me who can’t look at Spock slow mooching Uhura without making a funny face.

Balance, Bob. Do what’s best for the characters and the story. Please.

236. VeratheGun - January 22, 2010

I think it would be a big mistake to scuttle Spock/Uhura without taking advantage of the major emotionality of the situation. Of course they are going to break up. There ain’t no happy ending in store for this couple.

But let’s make it REAL. There should be blowback on all the major characters, based on the events of the first film. There’s going to be nasty stuff said about Uhura and Spock, and the blame is going to fall squarely on Uhura, just like in the real world.

Her professionalism is going to be called into question, her devotion to the job, her career is going to be the one to suffer. To ignore this is to deny human nature. And it’s good drama.

The writers set this one up brilliantly, in my opinion. The destruction of Vulcan, Kirk’s premature promotion, Spock/Uhura–all of it makes for some great drama in the sequel. I can’t wait!

237. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

221: “So basically you want to ping pong Uhura around. Uhura is not a plaything that needs to bounce from Spock to McCoy, all the while keeping a “tension” between her and Kirk.

“As a woman, I take offense to your blatant sexism.”

First of all, she’s a character in a movie. Hello? And second, she isn’t a vehicle for you to experience your Spock fetish either.

Last time I checked, this franchise is for all of us, not just the female Spock fetishists.

As for calling me a sexist. You can swoggle my hoggle.

238. Dreamer - January 22, 2010

As for the Oedipal thing, I think we have to take these remarks into context . They were talking to WGA members. These are screenwriters, who like to talk about hidden meaning and subtext and all that stuff. And it actually kind of makes sense in a crazy sort of way.

239. Holo J - January 22, 2010

I just wish they could have made the story work within the original timeline instead of creating a new timeline (parallel universe) altogether. I am sure they could have made a traditional Star Trek time travel story both interesting and enjoyable. It was just never on the agenda as this was always going to be a reboot.

One of the top forty things I would have on my list of things I didn’t want to see as long time Star Trek fan, would have been the destruction of Vulcan.

I’ve read lots of review saying it was liberating to see them blowing up 40 years of continuity as it removes the shackles of old stories dictating some of the story but for me that was the biggest disappointment.

I still can’t decide if I love the movie or not, but it still seemed more Star Wars than Star Trek. Even down to the phasers being more like the guns from Star Wars and the warp speed appearing more like light Speed. Ok these are visual effects references but it does help set the tone of the film.

Also money in the Federation, now I know it s a touchy subject but on the whole it used to be they didn’t have it. Maybe there was a credit system of some kind In TOS but not dollars or cash of any sort.

There definitely things in the film I did enjoy. Spocks back story in particular was enjoyable to see on screen. It was Star Trek but it wasn’t at the same time. I know that’s what they were going for to draw in the new fans but I really do feel cheated as a long time fan as it looks like the year forty years have been wiped out for good. Even if prime Spock remembers where he came from you can bet you bottom dollar years from now they next generation of fans will not. They aren’t going to be interested to go back and watch where “the old guy” came from in the FIRST Star Trek movie!

Yeah I don’t own it and its just entertainment, and that I am just another old fan who needs to get with the programme. Its just I always felt what set Star Trek apart from other science fiction was it was all part of the same continuing story.

The new movie feels completely separate from what has come before. Even having prime Spock appearing in the movie doesn’t really make it feel part of the past 40 years of Star Trek. He is meant to be the all important link but he could have come from any of the Star Trek multiple verses.

If Bob or Alex are out there reading any of these comments I have a new wish for any new list you make for the sequel. I would love the new movie to have more links to the prime universe and maybe even see it again even if it’s a brief appearance. Just to know its ok and all we know and love is still intact would be better than nothing.

240. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

236: I agree with you completely! I think there are a lot of dramatic opportunities here that could be squandered if they play it safe and start cementing things in where they stood at the end of ST.09.

241. Mel - January 22, 2010

Polls on internet sites can be easily manipulated. You don’t even need too manipulate it with the use of some kind of automatic voting program. It is enough to mobilse the fanbase. You just have to write on fansites about the poll.

Trekmovie itself did it a few times with polls on other sites. I remember one poll before the new Star Trek movie was in the cinemas, which ask which is the most anticipated movie of 2009 (or something like that). After Trekmovie reported about this poll, the numbers for the new Star Trek movie greatly improved very fast. I have seen things like that a lot of times.

Probably at this moment you can read about this Spock/Uhura poll on a lot of S/U fansites, encouraging every fan of the Spock and Uhura relationship to vote for them. A few hours earlier more than 50 % voted that they didn’t like the relationship and under 20 % voted I like it. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few hours more, the “I like it” voters have more than 50 % of the vote.

242. dielle - January 22, 2010

@dmduncan way to be offensive and sexist with those comment. just saying.

243. Jeyl - January 22, 2010

@228: “And that could be an excuse not to do anything different because some nippicky fan will scream bloody murder over it.”

I think you over generalize what it means for fans to be upset over something. When Star Trek was first released, it didn’t have any fans. It was made for the general audience to see if anyone out there would like the show. And you know what? People did. They liked it for a lot of reasons that aren’t solely dedicated on what was called what and who did this on whatever stardate. So maybe by intentionally ignoring details and not caring what the fans think, you might be ignoring more than you know about the franchise as a whole.

Will properly calling the shields ‘armor’ make me more interested? Not in the slightest. But if you were to retain Vulcan’s red-like atmosphere and conditions more carefully, I would at least know that the writers knew the difference between Vulcan and Earth, and that they’re not afraid to make a different planet look ‘alien’. Classic Star Trek did that. This Star Trek does not.

I have a feeling this new trek series will go out of it’s way to make things look less alien and more ‘down to earth’ as humanly possible, which is a shame since Trek’s modern day Earth was never a real element in the original series’ stories.

Ya, Nero should have destroyed Earth first and we save Vulcan. At least that would have challenged the writers to create something that isn’t dedicated to the #1 trope of Star Trek “Earth is in danger!”.

244. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

@242: If the women in my life who actually KNOW me said I was sexist, I would worry and reflect on it. But when the only time I’ve ever seen that comes from some anonymous fangirl who doesn’t know me, I don’t worry too much.

As for being offensive: I can take responsibility for offering offense, but not for accepting it.

245. Anthony Pascale - January 22, 2010

dmduncan

stop with the offensive stuff, that is just rude

246. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

243: “I think you over generalize what it means for fans to be upset over something. When Star Trek was first released, it didn’t have any fans. It was made for the general audience to see if anyone out there would like the show. And you know what? People did. They liked it for a lot of reasons that aren’t solely dedicated on what was called what and who did this on whatever stardate. So maybe by intentionally ignoring details and not caring what the fans think, you might be ignoring more than you know about the franchise as a whole.”

I’m one of those people. And I understood this — when I was 12 years old! Which is about the time when I accepted that Star Trek was really just an imperfect TV show that was impossible to make entirely self consistent. And when I realized that then all the STUFF became less crucial and the ideas in the show became more important.

So I don’t worry about little individual brushstrokes, I care now about seeing the whole picture.

247. Rison Qide - January 22, 2010

The Spock/Uhura thing should be severed. He would probably consider it to be immoral since his race is endangered. Also, WAY MORE MCCOY.

248. nerdinpink - January 22, 2010

Since all of this has become about Spock/Uhura I will now enter my two cents on the subject.

I liked it, though in a rather 12 year old girl way. Spock just lost his whole planet and his mother practically died right in front of him; he needs a hug. Uhura to the rescue!

I also understood and liked the rejection of Kirk through the acceptance of Spock.

249. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

245: “stop with the offensive stuff, that is just rude”

I generally don’t respond well to being called a “sexist” anymore than I would being called a “racist,” both of which terms have more well defined and agreed upon meanings than my just-invented and open to interpretation “swoggle my hoggle.”

In fact, I think it’s ruder to use dirty-trick words like “sexist” or “racist” on people who are neither sexist nor racist.

250. startrek fanfic writer - January 22, 2010

#247: He is a half-breed. His race might not particularly care for his genes.

10,000 left from the PLANET does not account for colonies, etc.

And 10,000 is more than enough for a viable genetic pool.

But way more McCoy would be awesome.

251. T'Cal - January 22, 2010

Star Trek’s theirs now. They’ll do with it what they will. They did very well the first time and I hope for the same quality. As for what the plot will entail, we’ll not know for a while. I was hoping for a 2011 release date but that’s very unlikely so. I trust that they’ll make it work. They have the right sense of ownership, of reverence, and respect.

252. G - January 22, 2010

Orci: “We would never do a remake….it will be some time in the five year mission.”
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
That’s all fine and good, because they’re so young, a ‘Shatner/Nimoy movie era’ Star Trek woudn’t make sense. But, just remember, Bob.. this particular 5-year mission would NOT be the same as the original 5-year mission from the TV show. This 5-year mission pre-dates that one. In the original, Spock served with Pike for several years on the Enterprise (I think I remember them saying 12 years? Or, “12 years ago” when Spock stole the Enterprise to take burned/wheelchair bound Pike back to that planet). Anyway, in the new movie, Pike commanded the Enterprise only for a few days, at best (on her maiden voyage against Nero), and he and Kirk were both promoted, earlier than the original time line). This Captain Kirk and crew are younger than the original Kirk and crew. Not the same 5-year mission. It *should be* several years before that. Something to take into account (I’m sure they have). I just don’t hear people talking about that point very much.

253. June W - January 22, 2010

I would like to know if the writers will erase a few things, like Spock’s half-brother Sybok and the last TV series “Enterprise” that got cancelled. I hope so! I also hope that Leonard Nimoy comes back in the sequel, even just for a cameo; his character is important in the New Vulcan. Erm… any chance of getting a handsomer actor to play Sarek?

254. VeratheGun - January 22, 2010

250. But here’s one of the more interesting things I’ve seen written about Spock: he’s probably sterile. So no adding in his genes, anyway.

The theory is, that like a mule (except in rare instances), the DNA of a two species creature is too fragile to replicate in the normal way.

I don’t have time to expand on this, but if Spock is unable to reproduce, he is of little genetic use to his people. Note I just said GENETIC use.

255. recumbentgoat - January 22, 2010

@230 it’s just a personal preference of mine. i don’t want to make it seem that she’s got to forsake her femininity for her job at all.

women w/ longer hair make it work all the time, but for me, if she’s chief comm officer her time is limited and caring for hair that long just isn’t practical. and cutting her hair short to mark a change in her professional or personal life isn’t that implausible for whatever reason writers would want to justify the change.

and by referring to TOS Uhura’s ‘fro–I’m not suggesting nuUhura squeeze herself into some Nichelle Nichols template either. Zoe’s perfectly awesome on her own. But I would love to see her with a bob or short hair pulled back. I think Zoe’s curly locks would be adorable. lol

256. Tom - January 22, 2010

reading that shatner/nimoy cameo again and just fits perfect with watching the relationship develop with pine/quinto. Add a little more window dressing to the scene to make it new and it would look good to go in the sequel.

257. garen - January 22, 2010

#220…Thanks. You said it better than i did in #7.

and i really wish this thread hadn’t turned into a Uhura/Spock thing.

258. Nata - January 22, 2010

#178. And I suppose Picard sucked as captain because Riker got all the girls.
- Wrong analogy. Riker didn’t steal any girl from Picard, Picard just wasn’t chasing ‘em. But it seems to me if Picard wanted a girl for himself Riker wouldn’t have a chance. :)

So yes, those who say Kirk being rejected reflects on his captainhood – they have a point. And Kirk in TOS actually wasn’t chasing girls – girls were chasing him. Check it, it’s true.

This nuKirk is still pretty pathetic, but as he comes into his own, he should grow in female eyes as well. Here’s hoping for less rejections and girl-chasing in the next movie. Time for him to be a Captain!

As for Uhura character – agree with those who say she can be both a strong woman and be in love, and combine career and relationships. Is it not what most of us women have to do?
Her having a love interest does not in any way diminish her character – but WHY or why does it have to be Spock?
There’re so many hot and genious males on this crew beside Spock- and by the way, agree with those who say “MORE WOMEN”. I’m myself rather partial to Uhura/Chekhov – he’s so sweet and amazing and innocent – you’d just want to teach him things and be his first crash. :)

Because it does screw up the magic TOS formula of epic bromance of Kirk and Spock – and McCoy. And it does screw Uhura character if S/U is to be delegated to the background in favour to that bromance.
The only time I saw it work was on Firefly with Wash an Zoe, with Zoe and Mal still having an epic friendship. But I can’t see it working in ST. And Zoe was so much better developed than Uhura here, anyway.

259. Star Trek XII no será un remake - January 22, 2010

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260. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

Dmduncan said: and ignore BOTH the Spock girls who want to see their personal fantasies materialize on screen, AND those like me who can’t look at Spock slow mooching Uhura without making a funny face.

You have commented you don’t like being called racist or sexist….yet you implicitly responded to my post calling me a “Spock girl that wanted to see a person fantasy materialize on screen…..”

1.) To receive respect you must earn it….your comments thus far have not earned you my respect.

2.) I am not a Spock girl with any fantasies…I simply saw a dynamic relationship unfold on screen without the normal overly dramatic entrance. It was refreshing to see a deep relationship that was not the primary focus of the movie, and was at the same time stable. I am a professional and I am also married. It was nice to see that one did not preclude the other.

I also appreciated that the relationship was not degrading. I did not feel the need to have them romping in the bed to establish their relationship. Two kisses and an embrace were more than enough and did not make me feel sick about the relationship. I cannot understand why seeing Spock do this would make anyone feel sick. Obviously his parents, and the entire population of Vulcan had to do this to continue populating the planet of Vulcan. I’m sure his mother, as a human required, his father to do so more than every seven years. In TOS, we even have a version of the Vulcan kiss, openly on display. Spock also, kissed several women in TOS including humans and Romulans, did you feel the same way then?

I believe it was you (may not have been) that commented their 25 year old sister loved the movie and admitted that she only watched it for Spock/Uhura. I hate to bring this to your attention, but have you watched scifi trends lately?

There were several articles last year stating that sci-fi conventions are being bombarded with young women who are supporting their choice in romantic sci-fi’s flicks. In fact, Twilight had more votes than almost every other movie, in several popular polls, because of the tenacity of the “younger fan girls.”

The thing is, in this day and age, many younger people period, myself included, are more apt to support the pairing. Our younger generation has moved away from alot of the ‘hangups’ the older generation has. And while the fledgling few older supporters of the series my not like change, in order for Star Trek to remain updated it has to appease a newer generation. (I say fledgling only because of the decreasingly smaller amount of fans that would show up at comic con, and the decreasingly smaller amount of money being made from the prior Star Trek movies)

It is amazing to me to see people say something like I’d rather there been a relationship between Spock and Christine. That completely shoots a hole in the argument that Spock wasn’t supposed to have any relationship. I think the reason the relationship bothers them stems from an entirely different reasoning, I don’t even feel like addressing.

As I stated before, Spock and Uhura was an integral part of the movie for me for and at least 5 of my girlfriends. It was the reason, I payed in excess of 175.00 in movie fares alone. It made me want to see the movie repeatedly. For them to take it out would be a travesty.

People laugh at movies such as Twilight. Yet that movie did become a blockbuster making a ton of money so further films could be produced. I won’t comment on the story because it wasn’t of interest to me. But because it appeased most of the watchers….it’s fans will have at least two more films… I’m sure we all want the same for Trek.

Don’t discredit the sci-fi watchers that occasionally do like to see romance in the movies. Sci-fi does not have to be all or nothing. Sci-fi and romance can coexist peacefully.

Now that this response is so incredibly long, I will say “Live, Long, and Prosper” and that I hope that in the future, a relationship between Spock and Uhura will not bother you so. Afterall, it truly was at tops eight minutes of the movie they had. Surely you can get over that.

To the writers, I once again implore you…do not take something so fantastic and wonderfully understated out of the movie. More people than you really realize enjoyed that element of the film. They just don’t post on threads such as these all the time…

Peace and Long Life–

261. Daoud - January 22, 2010

The original “Sons of Socrates” script had Kirk kissing Uhura, but only after McCoy and Uhura foot-fondled (or played “toesies” as the outline calls it), at least as of June 13, 1968. Not sure where the Spock/Uhura part would have been, as the early scripts had the Platonians having Spock partnered with Chapel. But there were probably many outlines and versions between then and filming, and Nichelle is probably correct.

The best site I know of that has such information gathered is Dave Eversole’s review at:
http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/sons_of_socrates.htm

As for Spock and Uhura, I’m sure K/O can continue doing a great job with this and I look forward to what you, Bob, and Alex can come up with!

To paraphrase the famous letter from a Southern US fan to Roddenberry and adapt it for K/O’s consumption:

“I am against the mixing of the races, but anytime a green-blooded Vulcan boy like Mr. Spock gets his arms around a gal like Lt. Uhura, he ain’t gonna fight it!”

262. Cervantes - January 22, 2010

#239 Holo J

I absolutely concur with your first paragraph and your last two paragraphs!

And you hit the nail on about the ‘Prime’ Spock seen in this reboot.

Personally, I just simply look on him as being some ‘older’ Spock from an ALTERNATIVE Star Trek universe, rather than being the ACTUAL TOS universe Spock….so it doesn’t matter what new rebooted universe has been created for this movie anyway….as it’s not generated from the TOS one whatsoever….

….just like I never looked on the ‘Next Generation’ series (or any other after TOS) as being the actual future of the TOS universe either….but merely the future shenanigans of some ALTERNATIVE Star Trek universe too…. :)

While J.J.’s movie is likeable enough, the plain fact remains that there was a determined effort to stylise this more along the likes of his much-loved ‘Next Generation’ series….which wasn’t the kind of TOS movie I’d hoped for.

And while it ended up a decent enough effort in some ways, It also ended up disappointing in many other ways.

So while I can enjoy this new type of Star Trek franchise as a totally seperate entity to the TOS series….I’d just like to say that I truly hope this particular ALTERNATIVE universe doesn’t involve some equally alternative ‘KHAN’ villain for it’s sequel…. That’s been done perfectly well on-screen thanks. Hell, I’d even prefer alternative Klingons to that, if they can’t think of anything else!

263. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

258: “So yes, those who say Kirk being rejected reflects on his captainhood – they have a point. And Kirk in TOS actually wasn’t chasing girls – girls were chasing him. Check it, it’s true.

This nuKirk is still pretty pathetic, but as he comes into his own, he should grow in female eyes as well. Here’s hoping for less rejections and girl-chasing in the next movie. Time for him to be a Captain!”

That’s what I’m saying, Nata. Shatner Kirk was never a dog, jumping from bed to bed. I think that impression comes from too many comedians all doing the same Kirk jokes. He liked the ladies, whatever their color, but he did not ever forget who he was and he did not lead with his pee pee.

And in the end you cannot see anybody else in charge of the Enterprise. But right now, it’s like, “Okay, I know he’s officially the Captain, but can he handle the job? Or is he too immature to handle it day in and day out?”

Shatner Kirk is a hero. Pine Kirk is not quite there yet, and I think it’s really important to see that evolution, not just be inserted back into the Trek universe after he’s already evolved, unless they did some flashback type of device.

264. MarkF - January 22, 2010

Recast Rachel Nichols as Rand. Her performance in GI Joe convinced me she sould have the role.

265. Greg2600 - January 22, 2010

Remake Star Wars? Can’t be any worse than the creator.

266. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

260: “You have commented you don’t like being called racist or sexist….yet you implicitly responded to my post calling me a “Spock girl that wanted to see a person fantasy materialize on screen…..”

Lord have mercy. Do you know what the words you are using mean or are they just things you throw at people to try and make them feel bad?

First of all, if you know anything about Star Trek history you know that Spock was originally the most popular character in the 60′s, and especially with women, many of whom did indeed have romantic Spock fantasies. Audiences today are more sophisticated, and I don’t think a bowl cut, logic, and pointy ears is as amazing now as it was then, so there’s probably some significant loss of novelty with the character of Spock to modern audiences. Whatever the case, those fans did and still do exist. Whether you are one of them is not for me to say.

Second, my comments weren’t directed at you specifically. I don’t KNOW you. All I can do, and have been doing, is to respond to a trend in the comments favorable to a full blown Spock romance which I do not think would be a beautiful thing, and I’ve tried to spell out why.

Third, the romance was not a big part of the movie. It wasn’t a central part of the movie. It was hardly there at all, so it’s hard for me to believe that makes the movie for some people, but okay, if you say so, I’ll accept that it makes it for YOU and your five girlfriends.

But Star Trek shouldn’t strive to please fan factions. Bob and Alex should do what’s best for the characters and the story, because THAT in the end is what will make the sequel successful, not catering to individual wishes and desires. These characters DO have their own integrity, and you can’t write them any way you want and still call the result believable.

So if that means that I don’t get what I want, that’s the way it is. And if you don’t get what you want, same goes for you.

The overall quality of the movie is most important.

Now, how is responding to Spock fetishism, real or imagined, sexist? Or are you just flatly denying that it exists?

267. GarySeven - January 22, 2010

#257- I agree. Uhura/Spock is a fine topic, but what the essence of the next movie should be about, what the essence of what Star Trek should be about, is more important.

268. Nata - January 22, 2010

#266. dmduncan Now, how is responding to Spock fetishism, real or imagined, sexist?
By using the words “Spock fetishism”, for example.
You imply that there’s something wrong with that, as “fetishism” carry a negative meaning. I.e. you imply that having romantic thoughts about Spock is somehow demeaning, and fans who are having them are less than fans.

That’s how it came across to me, and it did sound a tad insulting to girls/women.
It’s not about girls having shameful dirty fantasies, it’s about fans wanting developments in the story which are interesting to them.

You could try rewording it like “those who want to see Spock romantically involved” – and it doesn’t have to be girls, you know – BobOrci here also wanted it, and JJ, and they ain’t young girls.
I would just help to get your point across without alienating folks here.

269. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

Once again you’ve misread…… I referred to the fact that you said you didn’t want to be dismissed by being CLASSED as either a racist or a sexist.

Yet you responded to me by CLASSING me in a group of women with Spock fetishes…

Don’t discount my statements by classing me as something you don’t know me to be either. As YOU just said….you DONT know ME……

And as I have stated…the dynamics of the relationship helped to make the movie as successful as it was the first time. It obviously will help the overall quality of the movie and in the mind of many it made the movie both believable and enjoyable a second time.

Now that I have cleared that up…I have a business meeting to attend. If you have not left the computer screen in about two hours or so I can debate you then…

(Unless me being married and having a career, like Uhura, makes me so much less of a professional as so many seem to hint at on here……)

270. FarStrider - January 22, 2010

Wow. I can’t believe that after all this time people are still confused about this. Obviously the S/U plot point struck a big nerve, so, good or bad, the writers will be dealing with it. But I feel that people saying stuff like the relationship screws “up the magic TOS formula of epic bromance of Kirk and Spock – and McCoy” and that this development is a “radical change in the character of Spock” aren’t exactly getting the point. ALTERNATE UNIVERSE IS ALTERNATE!! This is NOT TOS; with everything that happened in ST09, it will never be TOS. The characters will be DIFFERENT. . .

And those bemoaning the “reduction” of McCoy because Uhura was elevated in importance. . . did you pay attention to the TOS movies? As Spock moved from supporting character to a co-lead with Kirk, McCoy became almost a third wheel, and the other four characters were basically comic relief. In ST09, the writers have changed the dynamic: Kirk and Spock are the protagonists, hell, one could argue that while it ST09 is Kirk’s story, Spock is the hero since he is the one who lost the most and changes the most. Since there are two protagonists, it makes sense to have McCoy as Kirk’s supporter and Spock’s antagonist while Uhura is Spock’s supporter and Kirk’s antagonist; it is more balanced than the Kirk and McCoy ganging up on Spock dynamic that would develop if the writers developed the “triumvirate” the way it was in TOS. Now it is a “quadumvirate” (yeah, I made that word up). . . so, I’m voting for Spock/Uhura. . . Personally, I think it would be cool if McCoy and Uhura become great friends who get together to kvetch about Kirk and Spock in the next movie.

I just think everyone would be better served remembering that the writers are NOT recreating TOS. . . it is not going to have the same dynamics. . . ALTERNATE UNIVERSE IS ALTERNATE. . . else why go through all of the twists to get here in the first place.

~FS

271. Thorny - January 22, 2010

I’d really like to see the next movie be the origin of the Five Year Mission. Make it a few years after ST 2009. All twelve of the Constitution-class starships have now been built and the Federation is ready to begin the Five Year Mission to explore the frontier. Admiral Pike gives the twelve captains their orders, and we get cameo appearances of Commodores Decker, Wesley, Captain Tracey, etc. Then we see the twelve starships all depart Starbase One in different directions, and we follow the Enterprise into a new adventure that does not involve in human-like alien bent on revenge.

272. P Technobabble - January 22, 2010

267. Gary

Agreed, the next movie will be a a great Star Trek adventure, and that is what matters. Anything that happens between Spock and Uhura will be a subplot, possibly a very minor one. We might think Spock would reject Uhura’s affections, in the end, but for him to know that his father married his mother because he “loved her,” could give Spock a little room to breathe there. On the other hand, I think Spock would be too much a professional to be fraternizing with a co-worker. That’s just not good “office” etiquette, IMO.
I seriously doubt Star Trek will turn into a soap opera…

273. Shadowcat - January 22, 2010

@260.

Very well stated. I am a Black woman and I have been a Star Trek fan for over 40 years. I see nothing wrong with the Spock/Uhura relationship.

274. BringBackSuluPrime - January 22, 2010

—-Orci: We would like to remake Star Wars [laughs]—-
A very old Luke Prime could fall into a black hole and meet a young Darth Vader?

275. Jayb - January 22, 2010

Just wanted to weigh in on the shield discussion; *Many* times in TOS (example – “Balance of Terror”) and also in the movies ( like the battle scene in “The Undiscovered Country”) the shields were depicted as a skin, or tightly wrapped shell. In TUC there was even a graphic showing the shields as such. Also, in TUC, when the shields were up, the Enterprise took a number of hits from the cloaked Klingon Bird of Prey, which left marks on the hull – *while the shields were up*.

So to me, the way the shields were used/shown in the new Trek film are perfectly in line with the way they were used in TOS and the movies. Just my opinion, take it for what it’s worth. ;-)

276. Shadowcat - January 22, 2010

@188.

Excellent commments! I am a Black woman and a geek. I lived in the US up until last year. I am sick of how Black woman are portrayed in American movies and televison shows. We are not all fat, loud, and ignorant ghetto trash or vicitims like in the film Precious Ugh!

I am educated and professional and happily married to another geek. We actually met at work. Romances at university or at work are quite common nowdays. I don’t understand the dislike of the relationship between Spock and Uhura.

277. Rawles - January 22, 2010

I’ve been a Trek fan literally for my entire life, come from a family of Trek fans, and was raised on TOS reruns and all of the spin-offs as they aired. The Spock/Uhura relationships was one of my absolute favorite things about the movie because it was so well done. People complaining about what it “does” to Spock’s character are pretty clearly having a hard time accepting the concept of Alternate Universe. This entire movie was about Spock’s issues with emotions and relationships to the extent that he carried the entire emotional arc. The Spock/Uhura relationship, on a structural level, was extremely important to the narrative because of this and anyone who can’t see that pretty clearly doesn’t understand how stories work.

This clamoring for everything to be exactly the same as it was is ridiculous. It’s not going to be the same. They went through all the trouble of creating an entire alternate reality so that they could make things different when they so chose and Spock/Uhura is one of those differences and it worked. It helps elucidate on the characters of a Spock and Uhura who are not exactly like their Primeverse counterparts, but who are dynamic and interesting characters all the same.

To reduce or dismiss the relationship in the sequels would not only be extremely emotionally dishonest considering the clear depth of feeling and intimacy between them in this movie, but it would also be robbing us of a well-depicted and healthy interracial relationship. And anyone who thinks that showing interracial relationships, especially featuring a black woman, are somehow a “safe” thing now because they’re so ubiquitous and acceptable is hopelessly naive. Obviously everyone is going to completely dismiss me now if they hadn’t already because that’s how these conversations go, but the amount of opposition to Spock/Uhura that is so clearly racially-charged just in small internet circles is staggering.

S/U is a good thing. It’s a brave thing. It’s a needed thing. And it’s something that adds texture and life to the narrative of which it is a part.

278. Tina S - January 22, 2010

137. boborci – January 22, 2010

Thank you for listening. I do have confidence that you will succeed in rounding out Uhura’s character. There is a lot of good foundation material to work with. Just don’t be afraid to allow her to make mistakes or show flaws.

279. Ironhyde - January 22, 2010

“So in the original series, the first interracial kiss was between William Shatner and Nichelle Nichols, and we thought in this, what is the harmony of that? And the harmony is the first inter-species kiss. It is Uhura and Spock.”

Offensive. Just… wow. Not since the “hick who only has sex with farm animals” fiasco has Orci made such a blatantly erroneous and socially inattentive and unaware statement. There was a freaking inter species kiss earlier in the move with Kirk and the green girl. PLUS, that’s not what the original 1960s kiss was about!

#17 – agreed.

280. Hugh Hoyland - January 22, 2010

Im not really sure why it seems so many fans are against the idea of a re-booted Khan being in the villian in the sequel, if its done well it will work and be very enjoyable IMO. The ideas being presented are all interesting. But it really comes down to what the producers, writers and director (and studeo) think what type of movie will have the best chance of making money at the box office. Movies based on esoteric ideas usually are not blockbusters. Look at “Star Trek the motion picture”. When I went to see it as a kid, I was expecting a story that was based on TOS. Instead I got a movie based on Star Trek Phase 2, And although I found some aspects of the movie interesting, I, like many other fans walked out a bit disapointed. This is why paramount took Rodenberry of any future motion picture projects and went with Khan in the sequel, And it worked. ST: TWOK and Star Trek 2009 are similar in many ways as far as being sucessful re-boots.

281. whatever - January 22, 2010

Sorry guys but Uhura spends the better part of the movie being insubordinate and disrespectful to her commanding officer.

Let’s not even talk about being unprofessional with Spock before he beams aboard Nero’s ship.

TOS Uhura would never have behaved that way. She was a professional all around. Any other ship and Uhura would have been in the brig because she was pissed … why again? Kirk once hit on her?

And for those who are all, these are not your father’s characters. Um no. The slogan is this is not your father’s Star Trek. Change the characters and what’s the point? It’s not Star Trek.

282. startrek fanfic writer - January 22, 2010

#254: If they can manage to make a hybridize a copper blooded species with an iron blooded species I’m sure they won’t have trouble making them fertile.

Yes, they could find other ways to help them rebuild. But, I don’t think that Spock would be being immoral by bonding with a human, fertile or not. He’s part human, so I don’t think they’d be all that hip to his genes.

Also, if there are more Vulcan males than females Vulcan High Command might be more than content to let Spock bond outside of the species. One less Pon Farr to worry about.

283. Damian - January 22, 2010

#253–Sybok is older than Spock so he would still exist (unless he was on Vulcan when it was destroyed); also Enterprise was 100 years prior so it would be the only series unaffected by Nero. What’s your beef with Enterprise anyway. Many of us liked it and I doubt it would have any affect on any of the new movies anyway.

#262–JJ Abrams repeatedly said he was a fan of the original series only. The other series disconnected for him. He may have mentioned seeing some of the Next Generation. However this movie did not make me think of The Next Generation at all. Watch the Next Generation movies, then this one. I don’t see the similarities.

There are some out there that think the only true Star Trek is what Gene Roddenberry was directly involved with. However Roddenberry himself said that he hoped Star Trek would outlive him and he envisioned others taking the reins. I think it’s a great testament to Roddenberry that while he died in 1991, his creation is still going strong. Hell, there have been 11 movies, 5 TV series, an animated series, thousands of books, comic books, games, fan fiction all based on his creation. If I were Gene Roddenberry looking down on all that, I’d have a smile from ear to ear. Rick Berman took the reins for a generation, JJ Abrams will have it for another generation and after his creative vision is exhausted, someone else will take over for another generation. That’s some testament to Gene Roddenberry’s creation.

284. Hugh Hoyland - January 22, 2010

My suggestion is that the writers use what is working well at the movies. People knock Tranformers 2, but the movie is a major sucess and we know what Avatar is doing right now. Some people say “dont make romance and sex a part of the new movie, woman dont have to be in a relationship to be strong or interesting blah blah blah”, but there is a big time untapped Female audience out there. They like the idea of S/U and romance, and like someone posted, some went to see this movie just because of that. Twilight is a sucess right now, yep, so I say borrow from that as well. As I suggested, Kirk should have a love interest in the next one as well, Rand perhapes?

285. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Not only was I unfairly rebuked as a “sexist,” but then Anthony Pascale censured me, I believe, for use of the words “swoggle my hoggle.”

Being the certifiable inventor of “swoggle my hoggle,” I am uniquely qualified to explain its true meaning, and I can assure all of you here that it has none.

It is instead a meaningless blather, an empty vessel which the context of usage makes clear that the recipient may fill with as much, or as little, offense as he feels like suffering the imagined indignity of.

I cannot unfortunately say that “sexist” is equally devoid of meaning or intent; rather, it has a widely known and uncontroversial meaning injurious to the character of he who is called one.

And so, having volleyed a balloon filled with air against a flaming bottle of alcohol, woe is me, I yet somehow now suffer the scandalous repute of a misogynist and misanthrope.

268: “By using the words “Spock fetishism”, for example.”

“You imply that there’s something wrong with that, as “fetishism” carry a negative meaning. I.e. you imply that having romantic thoughts about Spock is somehow demeaning, and fans who are having them are less than fans.”

I make no such implication. So we disagree and there’s no point going further on that issue. A very good artist friend of mine in NYC has what both he and I describe as a “foot fetish.”

He doesn’t feel bad about it, and it doesn’t bother me. Certainly no negative connotations at all. But a fetish is something that has a very narrow appeal, and if you don’t have one it’s not something which people who don’t have that fetish necessarily want to see or who will understand.

Star Trek should be for all people, and if you radically alter the character of Spock, why not just do whatever you want from the beginning rather than crafting a complex plot to preserve canon while keeping story possibilities open for the future? Perhaps the joke is on me, and I’m just now finding out.

“It’s not about girls having shameful dirty fantasies, it’s about fans wanting developments in the story which are interesting to them.”

But it’s not interesting to me. And I’m a fan speaking his mind like you. And I spent a ton of money on this movie and its related products. And I don’t want to see something up there that I don’t like to please some fan who does like it. So what do you do? I think you just have to tell the best story possible and let what happens develop naturally out of that aim rather than trying to please you OR me.

@269: you know what? If I am a sexist, then CALL me one. Maybe that’s something I should be aware of. But don’t play those trump cards, calling people things they are not. I would just figure, given all the women I do know on just about every side of each issue, that at least ONE of them at SOME time would have made that charge against me, given that I have the same personality off the computer as I have on it. And yet that’s not true.

I do get women pissed at me every now and then, but never once for being a sexist.

Anyway, the more I talk against Spock/Uhura the more people rise up in revolt to insist on it. If I keep talking I feel sure I’ll actually get the whole sequel to be about nothing BUT Spock and Uhura, in which case I’ll go back to being the sort of Star Trek fan I was before this past Summer. Not one at all.

286. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

@284: Unfortunately, the way things are going for Kirk right now, the only love interest he may have is dangling at the end of one of his arms.

287. Sara - January 22, 2010

The thing that most surprises me about all of the people saying that it’s “un-Vulcan” for Spock to be together with Uhura is that, well…his father married a human. Where’s the uproar about that? So it’s not even like Sarek was the only (or the first) Vulcan to fall in love with a human! People like to think that Vulcan=”emotional eunuch” but it just means that they hide their emotions well. Furthermore, TOS Spock, frankly, is not STXI Spock. We don’t know all the ways their lives were different during childhood and adolescence, but we do know that his life was significantly altered by the loss of his mother, early reconciliation with his father, and his father’s outright admission that he loved Amanda. I think these are all fair points towards making the Spock/Uhura relationship valid. They. are. not. the. same. person. I thought the relationship was a wonderful way (although it shouldn’t be the only one) for the film to begin a deeper exploration into how Spock and Spock Prime are similar, yet different. I don’t believe the relationship should be prominent within the film, as Star Trek is not a romantic comedy, but to say that putting characters in a romantic relationship somehow diminishes them is a fallacy. And for the films that do reduce female characters to “just the girlfriend”, well, that has nothing to do with being in a relationship and everything to do with sub-par writing. If being in a relationship had anything to do diminished personal development or professional skill, then all of our world leaders would be single.

Furthermore, to be frank, I think that the relationship made great strides in terms of the casting of females of color and allowing them to be realized romantically on the screen, which never happens. I mean, have you seen Nichelle Nichols? I find it hard to believe that everyone always had the hots for Kirk, and she was never getting a piece of the action. The first Trek films were relatively low-budget enterprises that could afford to pander to the old school fans. But it was a aging (literally and figuratively)until this film was released. This film brought new blood and new dollars into the game, and it would be a shame to throw that away. To be frank, II saw the film the first time because Star Trek is part of sci-fi canon and the special effects looked neat, but I saw it the second, third, and fourth time (and bought the 2-disc DVD) because there was a woman of color being fierce on the screen. Rest assured that if this franchise were to backpedal and turn this into another white boy hero romp, I will be downloading it and keeping my dollars in my wallet.

288. FarStrider - January 22, 2010

@281: So did Kirk, but you don’t seem to be mad at him. . .I wonder why?

~FS

289. boborci - January 22, 2010

279. Ironhyde – January 22, 2010

I simply meant that the harmony was based on Uhura being interested in Spock instead of Kirk. Obviously by the logic you apply, you could argue that Kirk and Uhura was not really the first interracial kiss since Kirk had kissed aliens before ( who are by definition a different race). But fine, it wasn’t as grand as the first inter-species kiss — just sharing with you what came to mind when we made the decision, not presenting historical facts in a lecture.

290. G - January 22, 2010

@ 284. Hugh Hoyland – January 22, 2010

“My suggestion is that the writers use what is working well at the movies… Tranformers 2.. the movie is a major sucess we know what Avatar is doing right now.. . Twilight is a sucess right now, yep, so I say borrow from that as well.”
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
So.. Pale, blue, teenage, vampire robots, with lots of bad acting throw in????? Nah, I don’t think so. Star Trek is above all that crap. I’ll pass.

291. Damian - January 22, 2010

I think some TOS fans are upset at the whole Spock/Uhura thing because it is a fundamental difference from TOS, where they were not involved. Vulcan/Human relations should not be an issue. After all we already have Sarek/Amanda and before that T’Pol/Trip from Enterprise. I can’t believe this is still such an issue. At most, S/U (or is it U/S) would be a minor plot point in the new movie. They are not going to make a romantic comedy. And I really don’t see how that makes Kirk less a man. He was not upset that Spock got Uhura. At the end he had the look on his face basically, You win some, you lose some. He was over it. Let’s face it, as a new captain he would have had to break it off anyway. Who Cares! I’m more interested in the major plot of the new movie (which will obviously be under tight wraps like the last 11 movies).

As an aside, I thought Zoe Saldana was a total hottie. She had brains to go with it too and the right attitude. I don’t get what some are indicating, that she is only there for the sexual tension. She was more than just a “Hailing Frequencies Open, Captain.” They played up her linguistic skills and communication expertise also. My only criticism would be that Nichelle Nichols had a certain grace about her that Zoe Saldana needs to work on a little bit. Nichols had a presence about her that I have a hard time explaining.

292. recumbentgoat - January 22, 2010

288. boborci – January 22, 2010

fyi–in Elaan of Troyius–the ‘alien’ Shatner kissed, France Nguyen, was Vietnamese-French.

also–the first interracial kiss on a TV show was I, Spy between Bill Cosby and a Japanese actress. First black/white kiss on TV was Sammy Davis and Nancy Sinatra on some variety show.

293. devon - January 22, 2010

LONGTIME TREK FAN OF 35+ Years in FAVOR OF SPOCK/UHURA ROMANCE: I have been a fan of Star Trek since I was 4or5 years old, and have thoroughly enjoyed all the movies & all TV incarnations to date, and as a Lifelong fan I want to go on the record as saying that I think the New Movie Rocked, I saw it 7x in the theatre and have since bought it on both standard and BluRay DVDs and have watched it multiple times with both Fans & non-fans & New-fans alike and everyone has agreed that it as a movie was awesome, and as Star Trek was epic, grandscale & the 1st film to feel like a true Blockbuster film! And noone I’ve ever watched it with ever commented negatively on the Spock/Uhura romance, but to the contrary seemed to feel that this relationship added dimensionality to the film and depth to these characters! As a long time fan, I question whether most naysayers have even watched the Original series closely or read any of its history notes, because if this were so they would at least acknowledge that this relationship is not something from out in left field, that it is a relationship that could have developed but for whatever reasons did not! However, the brilliance of the movie in being a Sequel/ Prequel/Reboot of the Original allows for “other possibilities” to happen and appear on screen, such as the reality/development of this relationship. Nero travelling back through time and altering events from before Kirk & Spock’s births in this alternate/divergent timeline has quite possibly changed everything… so people expecting things to unfold as they did in the Prime Universe is simply wishful thinking, as NewSpock is not Prime Spock and NewKirk is not Prime Kirk… perhaps the core of their beings remain unchanged, but their lives will unfold differently and they will become different from their Prime counterparts as they are affected by their environments, life circumstances, and the resultant choices made in reaction to these differences. NewKirk and crew are the same beings essentially but are free to bloom & grow in completely new & interesting ways, not limited to their Prime counterparts realities, and thank God for that, as it allows for limitless storytelling. Changing these characters doesn’t negate the previous 44 year history of Trek, all of this still happened, but in an alternate reality, not this one! Why would you want a retread as opposed to something new,fresh & exciting!
As for some comments regarding Spock/Uhura’s relationship, here goes: To the person who mentioned Scotty/Uhura having had a full fledged relationship in the movie series, I say “NOT SO!!” In Star trek V what you saw was a Sybok-influenced Uhura simply expressing regret over not having had a relationship at all with noone in particular but rather having sacrificed so very much for her career! That was the only instance of that in the movie series. Uhura had strong relationships/feelings with Chekov/Sulu/Bones/Scotty/Kirk and had it been any one of them present she might have expressed those same feelings of regret at that time as she was under the influence of Sybok’s persuasion! One cannot compare The Spock/Uhura romance to Scotty/Uhura based on the numerous & very organic displays between Prime Spock/Uhura. But alas, reality is that in the Prime Universe the relationship despite the potential for it developing did in fact not! Prime Spock ended up marrying Saavik. But this doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t in the New Reality!
As for the comments about T’Pring & Spock, everything has been altered before NewSpock’s birth. Who is to say that in the new reality Spock is ever betrothed to T’Pring? possibly the Vulcan people would not accept or want their daughters to be bonded to a hybrid, so Spock may not be bonded to any Vulcan whatsoever! Or possibly Amanda was opposed to the tradition and allowed for Spock to choose his own mate in time, both possibilities allowing for the development of the Spock/Uhura romance?! Possibly Spock was attracted to human females as his father Sarek was, finding Vulcan females cold & dispassionate ( we are often attracted to mates who are polar opposites to ourselves;Opposites Attract!) or just personal taste, noone can account for physical attraction, it just is. He may like Vulcan women, but may prefer Humans!
As for the comments regarding Uhura, I don’t agree that she can’t be both a professional & a woman, balancing love & career, this notion is very immature and the only ones opposed to this probably have never maintained both a satisfying relationship and worthwhile career… it is very possible & rewarding! I for one hope the writers develop this relationship more and would feel slighted if they dropped it in favor of appeasing a bunch of naysayers who can’t evolve with the times or have difficulty accepting change of any kind despite whether or not that change can be positive or add something new & fresh to the mix! You can’t please everyone, nor should you even try, that would be an exercise in futility! Your aim was to create a New Modern Trek with mass appeal, you did this… don’t alienate your new audiences by dropping a major element that drew them in, in the 1st place. Be consistent within this new reality, as it will make things more believable for the viewers! Keep messing around: they’re together, they’re not isn’t going to add anything to the next film, just confuse viewers even more! Stick to your guns, you went for it for a reason, see it through, if you don’t then I agree this is an act of appeasement and cowardice!
As for the comments regarding Elder Spock not acknowledging Uhura, I say this: It didn’t unfold that way in the Prime universe reality, so why would he??? The potential was there, but it never happened! The potential is here as well and unbeknownst to Elder Spock, it is developing in an entirely different way between this Spock & this Uhura because circumstances and thus realities themselves are completely different here & now, and that I believe, Prime Spock would say is ” completely Logical!”
LONG LIVE SPOCK/UHURA!!!! It’s nice to see things happen as they might have if TPTB hadn’t been so controlling & narrowminded as they were in the ’60′s! It’s frightening to see that even today people can still be so closed-minded, Shame on them! Maybe NewSpock has an even greater appreciation of IDIC than his counterpart! Uhura is a testament to that belief!

294. Hugh Hoyland - January 22, 2010

284 one persons crap is another persons entertainment. You may pass but a lot of other people are not. They’re going to see these movies in droves. Art is a very subjective thing, and quite difficult to define since we all have different “tast” so to speak. As far as bad acting…well thats also subjective, Im sure all these actors are well trained, its a matter of did the audiance enjoy the performance?

295. G - January 22, 2010

@ 293. Hugh Hoyland – January 22, 2010

Yeah, but I just don’t like that ‘jumping on the bandwagon’/milking it for money/copycat/selling out philosophy. It’s kinda like the whole Spider-Man debacle. Do I care that there’s not going to be another one with Tobey MacGuire? No, but I think it’s a typical sellout move by the studio to ‘reboot’ Spider-Man already. They’re using the exact same thinking that you described.. taking Peter Parker back to high school, just a few years after they already did a high school movie. That’s just laughable to me, and very weak. No imagination whatsoever. So weak.

296. Damian - January 22, 2010

#291–technically Spock was born before Kirk. And i get the impression his childhood was unaffected by the Narada. Probably what happened ultimately is T’Pring died when Vulcan was destroyed. Kirk’s childhood was drastically changed because his father was killed. In the original universe he was there to see Kirk take command and obviously had a great influence on how he grew up. I aggree that Uhura, Scotty was likely due to Sybok’s influence.

Wanted to say thank you also to guys like Bob Orci, Rick Sternbach, and others from Star Trek’s past and present that come on these boards to talk to the fans. It certainly makes the fans feel like you guys listen.

297. Red Skirt - January 22, 2010

#270 & 277, finally some voices of reason that actually make the proper point. Thankfully enough has been said about Uhura’s limited space operator role in the film already.

But the Spock & Uhura thing? Well I am a relative newcomer to Star Trek. I am not all invested in canon and what came before. And as I understand it, these are completely different people. So all the objections that are being raised that they are behaving out of character is simply ridiculous. These aren’t the same people at all.

What I am reading here is a lot of people who can’t let go of the past and are not open enough to change and exploring new possibilities that were perhaps never even contemplated 20 years ago, much less 40 years ago.

Let it go folks, open yourself up to the possibility of what these characters can do and become, leave the 40 years of baggage at the door. I seem to recall this is not your father’s star Trek, yet another sexist bit of marketing there ;-) Did I like everything about Spock & Uhura? No. But there are so many other problems with the script, that I can’t fixate on something so trivial. I liked it, I’d like to see where they take it. I can think of no reason not to explore it further. Every argument against it seems to be based on how the characters behaved before the reboot, hence not much of an argument at all in the alternate universe. Just a lot of people who can’t accept change.

298. Hugh Hoyland - January 22, 2010

294 G January Right now watching a reboot of BSG, Caprica before I go in to work. From the little Ive watched so far it has an interesting premise, but also has many of the elements I mentioned before. Im certain it will be a ratings hit. BSG just went off the air not long ago and IMO its not to early to do a “prequel”/reboot.

299. izmunuti - January 22, 2010

While Khan was fantastic, I would urge Orci & Kurtzman (like #118 here) to not use an obvious villain formula.

First, some of the best TOS episodes did not have uncomplicated, or base, villains.

For instance, in The City on the Edge of Forever, the crew was dealing with an accident and how to extract itself from a bad predicament. Also, in Assignment Earth, Gary Seven, while seemingly against the Enterprise crew, actually had the interest of humanity at heart.

In Shore Leave, the “villain” was a mystery and a mis-understanding with an advanced race.

Secondly, I don’t really have a real bad-guy villain in my life, and I doubt if most people do. It might be fun, but since I can’t really relate, I don’t walk away feeling an over-the-top villain story is applicable to my life – so it’s not very meaningful.

Also, if the next Trek is – again – villain-centric, it will be hard to feel we are not in for more of the same.

And Klingons are boring! “Honor then Duty”…. “NO, Duty then Honor!” “You will die now!” “Crash! Bang!” … whatever! haha

300. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

I’ll keep saying it either until it sinks in or my dog threatens to find a new owner if I don’t get off this website:

The Vulcans in general, and Spock in particular, illustrate a principle that Star Trek is famous for: LOGIC IS NOT ENOUGH.

The tripoint relationship of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy itself illustrates the idea: Spock is TOO logical, McCoy is TOO emotional. Kirk stands between them as the right balance of both characteristics, and this above all else makes him fit to command the Enterprise.

If you destroy that meaning then you’ve lost something that I always felt was a vitally important and perennial message of Star Trek. Indeed, the whole plot of STTMP was based on Spock’s realization of that point.

And Uhura interferes with that idea. She makes it a non issue. If ANYthing can be accused of “dumbing down” Star Trek, it’s the loss of that sophisticated notion which runs throughout TOS and into the motion pictures.

301. startrek fanfic writer - January 22, 2010

I totally support S/U but I hated the transporter scene kiss. When I read the book it said she actually was giving them special communicators to help them understand the Romulans. In the book she was actually pinning it on Spock when HE pulled her up to him and kissed her. Not the other way around.

Since the book was written based on screenplay my guess is they took that out of the movie to cut time, or because it was too difficult to shoot. Too complicated for the audience or what have you.

But she wasn’t just hanging out in the transporter room to make out with her man…and he was the one who slipped. And considering he was putting his chances of survival at less than 4%, was a wee bit emotionally upset about loosing his planet, I guess he probably had a Why the hell not moment…for which he can be forgiven.

302. Damian - January 22, 2010

I agree to an extent with 299. Much of what the original series was is the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship. And I feel that is a vital point that needs to be further examined in the next movie. I wrote my little amateur sequel idea but a major point I was trying to make is something has to happen that takes Kirk and Spock to that next level of brotherly friendship and loyalty above all else. Obviously how McCoy fits into that needs to be worked on too. That is a very important theme that I feel does need to stay consistent with the Prime Universe.

Even in TOS, in the beginning “Where No Man Has Gone Before”, Kirk and Spock are not yet close friends. That is Kirk and Mitchell. After Mitchell dies, Spock and Kirk take the first steps in there friendship. I think the last movie is taking a similar approach.

What is disagree with, is that I do not see how Uhura would necessarily be a threat to that friendship, unless they write it that way. It could be like Bashir and O’Brien’s friendship on DS9, when Bashir says he loves Ezri, but likes O’Brien more. Maybe Spock will love Uhura, but like Kirk better:)

303. SpockSiren - January 22, 2010

You know, if you read any of the biographies by William Shatner or Leonard Nimoy- the thing they so kindly point out about us fans at conventions etc is the level of acceptance and love we display-like we’re all one big family. I’m certainly not suggesting that we can’t have opposing viewpoints- but whatever happened to the message of tolerance and respect, so vital to TOS?

It seems to be somewhat diminished in above dialogues….

304. Canon Schmanon - January 22, 2010

No matter what happens, the sequel needs to have Kirk do some serious ass-kicking. He’s beaten around so much in the first movie that he really needs some kind of self-defining moment. Shatner’s Kirk was always beating the bad guys. Hell, he defeated Khan with a crummy hollow plastic tube!

Pine was pretty much a punching bag the first time around, and while he used his wits in attaining the last Romulan’s weapon to defeat him, it wasn’t enough.

305. Ironhyde - January 22, 2010

#288 – boborci

Thanks for the explanation.

My logic is, as others have pointed out, Spock was not an alien — just an actor with prosthetics. Uhura WAS African American. They were both human… It wasn’t the first inter-species kiss in that movie, let alone an inter-species kiss at all! I mean, we can pretend it was, but that misses the mark of the original significance of the 1960s kiss.

In university classes, studies of media and sociology have been known to touch on the Kirk/Uhura kiss because it was a major milestone and an important part of our media history and the construction of our social reality. It demonstrated biases, it broke down barriers, it challenged viewers, it was a milestone of great social and political importance because it came through a medium (television) which could reach people in their homes with sound AND pictures, and construct and impact the social reality they shared outside their homes. Media creates sexuality and gender and race. Those things, like what African American means, are social constructions. The original K/U kiss impacted all those things at once because it was a real thing happening in the real world (not like the yellow-faced intimacies of the 1930s which your S/U kiss represents more closely) — televised for the first time into our social reality.

To suggest the S/U kiss is somehow comparable to, or even that it speaks to, the K/U kiss of the 1960s is completely false. Saying something like that may sound good or socially aware, but on the flipside it is extremely socially ignorant.

Even so, I love that you brought out this issue, Mr. Orci, through your movie and with the subsequent statements quoted above. There’s nothing like having something to discuss. Media’s no good if we don’t talk about it, and you’ve at least started a conversation.

306. fansince66 - January 22, 2010

To #16

I think the 1st inter-species kiss was between Jeff and Lassie in the 1950′s(Tee-Hee).

307. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

When a man, like Barack Obama, becomes President of the United States, he becomes responsible to ALL the people, not just to a favored few. And when you take over responsibility for a franchise like Star Trek with such a diverse fan base, you are responsible to them all, not just to this clique, or that one.

If Bob, Alex, and JJ put the story and characters first and make it all understandable, they will earn a majority applause for a job well done, even if certain individuals dislike certain plot points here and there. And that, really is the best that they can do. What’s the alternative? Go after the teen girl crowd in the hopes of having New Moon’s success, and at the expense of all those people who won’t see such a product more than once, like me?

Avatar is WAAAY more successful than New Moon AND Star Trek because its appeal is much broader, and that’s the model to follow, not a trading off of one fan region for another.

And as hard as I am arguing against Spock-Uhura in the sequel, I STILL LOVE ST.09!!!!

308. Ironhyde - January 22, 2010

hey #291 – Interesting points! seems the S/U kiss was perhaps the most discussed and public Black/White kiss rather than the final choice as First Ever. Thanks for that.

309. Ironhyde - January 22, 2010

correction #308 K/U kiss

310. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Best Interspecies Kiss Award just HAS to go to Slither.

311. gingerly - January 22, 2010

#307

I am wondering what Obama has to with this…You’re saying Obama is responsible for more than just one kind of people?

…Like all the other presidents and their supposed people?

Wouldn’t they better examples since they only come from one, as opposed to Obama who is more than one, himself?

…Of two worlds, like Spock!

312. izmunuti - January 22, 2010

dmduncan #300 – Well said! Spock as the logical ALIEN allows Trek to look at humans from a unique perspective. I would be sorry to see that watered down.

Bring back I-Chaya! ;-)

313. Tielan - January 22, 2010

Hey guys, I’m not a Trek fan at all. Until your movie, I’d never watched more than two episodes of Trek all the way through – one TOS, one TNG.

I bought tickets to the Sydney premiere because I had friends who wanted to go and I thought it would be an experience.

Wow, was it ever an experience!

You guys did a fantastic job in ST:XI, from Kirk’s reckless behaviour to Uhura’s poised humour in the face of his flirting, from Spock’s issues wih his heritage (and his ‘screw you’ to the Vulcan council – HEE) to McCoy’s very un-Southern grumpiness, from Nero to time travel to the destruction of Vulcan, and even the little touches.

I enjoyed it so much, I went back twice more to watch in the cinemas, which I only ever do for movies I really, really love.

There seems to be a lot of kerfuffling above regarding the Spock/Uhura storyline. I dont know about old canon vs new, but I enjoyed it.

Uhura doesn’t *need* a man to be kickass – but if she wants a guy, she can have a guy *and* be awesome, too. (Some major kickassness for Uhura coming up in ST:XII? Please?)

As for Spock…I trust that you guys are going to address the fact that Vulcan is now an endangered species, and even a half-Vulcan’s bloodlines might very well be needed – which could make things complicated for Spock and Uhura.

In the end, what impressed me so much about ST:XI was that you managed to balance the action with the character interactions, and the plot development with the relational developments. That’s something that very few movies do these days, and why I enjoyed your movie so much. I hope that you’ll keep that balance between the action-packed and the interrelational going in the next movie!

ps. More Uhura. Can’t be said enough! Love her! :D

314. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Nimoy’s portrayal of Spock was great exactly because he made the character lovable without humanizing him. It’s okay NOT to be human folks. You don’t have to laugh, crack jokes, or make love to an earth girl to be a cool character. And Nimoy showed us that, and boy, that’s something I’m really going to miss if it’s gone for good.

We can’t have likable alien characters who are likable IN their alienness in the movies? Must they act human for us to appreciate them? That’s a sad loss if true.

I’m really going to miss and appreciate Nimoy all the more if Dirty Harry Spock is a future set in stone.

315. fansince66 - January 22, 2010

#134

A villain/adversary is best for drama/tension/conflict. A movie has very few hours to tell its’ story, unlike a TV series which may have hundreds of hours to develop a story arc that can include other elements of “low grade” drama, or comedy, or even soap opera-type human interest elements. A movie,IMO, must be very big, fast, & intense, cramming ALOT of info in very little time.

I still feel a good “villain” would be the Klingon Empire: very big, very old, very established/rational/calculating in its’ desires & aims, And very different from, & incompatible with, Federation ideals & philosophy (and NOT easily rebuffed in its’ pursuits of its’ interests).

just sayin’

316. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

dmduncan wrote: Avatar is WAAAY more successful than New Moon AND Star Trek because its appeal is much broader, and that’s the model to follow, not a trading off of one fan region for another…

Lets not compare apples to oranges… I’m sure if JJ had a 350 million dollar budget….we would probably be singing the same kind of praises for his production as people are for Avatar….

Then dmduncan wrote: If Bob, Alex, and JJ put the story and characters first and make it all understandable, they will earn a majority applause for a job well done, even if certain individuals dislike certain plot points here and there. And that, really is the best that they can do. What’s the alternative? Go after the teen girl crowd in the hopes of having New Moon’s success, and at the expense of all those people who won’t see such a product more than once, like me?

You are contradicting yourself….several critics and several reviewers have said that Avatar had a slightly weak storyline, but that the graphics more than made up for it. If what you said above is true than Avatar should have worked on a better story and forgot about working on graphics ….that way they wouldn’t just be focusing on a small niche of people that like graphics and will only see the movie once….

The funny thing is that I agree with this statement….”If Bob, Alex, and JJ put the story and characters first and make it all understandable”…

In my opinion,and in the opinion of so many of the others that have began to speak up after some of the horrendous comments I saw posted earlier, Bob,Alex, and JJ are doing a good job at this. I don’t believe they are trying to pit one clique against another. I believe that they are doing something that should be normal. It seems that some peoples personal mores are keeping thm from seeing this. No one can change that but them…and that’s only if they really want to.

So that I don’t make this all about your comments I will just say that we can agree to disagree. Hopefully, you will continue to enjoy the movie, and in time learn to be at peace with the relationship.

On another note…I have not heard of any other plot point in the movie that has caused this much discussion. I did see a Plot hole thread on one forum that did raise my eyebrows…LOL! But nothing like this… I hope this lets the writers know that they have created an entirely new set of diehard fans. That can be considered an attestament to their writing! Keep up the great work! I’m excited to see where we are headed next….

P.S. It is a shame that this movie has made me start collecting Star Trek memoravilia! I’m worse than my dad now.. I seriously have 3 copies of the movie. Blu-Ray, 2-Disk Special Regular, and Regular. And that’s coming from a relatively new fan…that saw it more than once….

Anyhow,

317. boborci - January 22, 2010

305. Ironhyde – January 22, 2010

To suggest the S/U kiss is somehow comparable to, or even that it speaks to, the K/U kiss of the 1960s is completely false.
________

Here’s why I disagree:

We’re talking about it, aren’t we? And you’ve articulated a lucid summary of the importance of the TOS moment. Echoing a harmony, so to speak.

And again, the comment I made was intended to give an insight into our inspirations. I certainly didn’t mean to compare our greatness socially to the original ground breaking series.

318. gingerly - January 22, 2010

#314 You don’t have to laugh, crack jokes, or make love to an earth girl to be a cool character. And Nimoy showed us that, and boy, that’s something I’m really going to miss if it’s gone for good.

Nimoy’s Spock made love to two Earth girls, laughed and cracked many jokes with his patented dry Vulcan sarcasm.

I don’t know what show you watched, but I watched Star Trek.

319. boborci - January 22, 2010

313. Tielan – January 22, 2010

<Much appreciated. Welcome to TREK!

320. fansince66 - January 22, 2010

#144

Not the bubble force shields of past years, but instead reinforcing the hull itself. Hmmm. Interesting. I like it. ALOT.

321. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

#318–That comment was made of awesomeness!!! ROFL!!!

322. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

318: Thanks for the snark. Much unappreciated.

I didn’t think I had to say it — AGAIN — but apparently so. Yes, under the influence of SPORES, going back in TIME to when Vulcans were savages, or just being under the spell of Ponn Farr, Spock got his freak on.

But these incidents of lost self control came under the influence of extraordinary and TEMPORARY forces: drugs, time travel, etc., after which he returned to the self composed character underneath.

They were NOT part of his everyday character, but extraordinary exceptions.

That’s the Star Trek I was watching.

323. Canon Schmanon - January 22, 2010

Bob Orci – Dude, it’s Friday night and you’re here talking to us geeks? Shouldn’t you be at some drug-addled Hollywood party?

324. patrick - January 22, 2010

to (#182) SUNDAE’s “I will assume” reply to my comment stating my preference for Nichelle Nichol’s performance of the Uhura-character:

i’d agree completely since, in fact, i’ve seen Nichelle in person several times over the years and she’s certainly more fun and energetic than she her role on TOS permitted. however, one cannot help but see that same incredible Uhura-dignity in Nichelle’s entire life and she continues to honorably demonstrates that trait to this day.

Since i recognize that just as TOS-characters were defined by their times (as 50′s & 60′s era heroic-archetypes), the new Trek-team would recast the crew in what, i sense, would be considered the 21st century ones. so i wouldn’t confine my overall preference for the original cast to simply the Zoe’s dynamic portrayal of Uhura. in general, all the characters are motivated by angst, anger and attitude – besides Scotty’s humor and Chekov’s geeky smarts. this Kirk wasn’t the hard-working dedicated, idealist explorer who became a swashbuckling commander, he was a jerk who happened into being Captain, by default.

This Spock-character was devoid of any dignity at all, i felt. and even though i loved Karl Urban’s entertaining performance, his McCoy demonstrates the grumbling more evident in the post-series TOS-movies (and without the warm and flirtatious charm of DeForrest Kelley). etc, etc.

nevertheless, as a fan of Sherlock-Holmes, for instance, i can usually enjoy varying interpretations of my favorite fictional characters. so as the new cast matures and, hopefully, their characters, i’m sure to find things to specifically enjoy about each of them.

and to attack me personally for expressing my opinion and observations, is illogical.

325. Damian - January 22, 2010

He did have dry sarcasm though.

Spock and Uhura’s relationship, or I guess I should say S/U, does not necessarily mean Quinto’s Spock will be totally different from Nimoy. So he has a girlfriend. His father was a Vulcan with a human wife and got along fine. Spock can have a girl and still have good self-control. But that all depends on where they take it.

326. gingerly - January 22, 2010

#322

And what about Droxine? And the Romulan commander?

You sure, aren’t simply remembering the parts of his character that supports your position instead of all of them and who Spock truly is?

327. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

It is awesome that there here….I get this weird little tingle or excitement and start giggling everytime I see them post…..LOL! My husband is going to throw me off of here in a minute!

They just made me love the whole Star Trek movie that much more…..sigh….

328. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

316: “You are contradicting yourself….several critics and several reviewers have said that Avatar had a slightly weak storyline, but that the graphics more than made up for it. If what you said above is true than Avatar should have worked on a better story and forgot about working on graphics ….that way they wouldn’t just be focusing on a small niche of people that like graphics and will only see the movie once….”

I’m sorry, that makes no sense to me. Please point out the two things I said which contradict each other, and I’ll respond to that.

“In my opinion,and in the opinion of so many of the others that have began to speak up after some of the horrendous comments I saw posted earlier, Bob,Alex, and JJ are doing a good job at this. I don’t believe they are trying to pit one clique against another.”

Who said they are trying to do this? That’s not me or in anything I said, so I can’t speak to that. I am speaking up with a dissenting voice against those who want to see more Spock Uhura because I don’t want to see more of it. I’m speaking about what I want to see not what Bob and JJ have in mind to do.

And yes, I think it would be a loss and a dumbing down of what the show did in cotrasting not so much HUMAN behavior against Vulcan behavior, but in contrasting emotional behavior against logical behavior against a balance of those two int eh character of Kirk.

You see for me, Spock is not just a Vulcan or half Vulcan, but Spock, and the Vulcans are a contrast to show us ourselves. That is, in addition to being “aliens” in a story they have a meaningful purpose in showing us ourselves better which becomes lost if Vulcan means the same thing as human.

329. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

Ummmm….yes Post 327 was in response to post 323…

And Post 325 and 326 have my whole-hearted agreement. Now with that said, I am going to gracefully bow out. I have a presentation I’ve been tasked with, to work on.

One more thing before I go….since some of the writers are really on here, I just want to thank you for the excellent movie and encourage to keep thinking outside of the box. I am a one fan that truly appreciates it….

Goodnight!

330. boborci - January 22, 2010

323. Canon Schmanon – January 22, 2010
Bob Orci – Dude, it’s Friday night and you’re here talking to us geeks? Shouldn’t you be at some drug-addled Hollywood party?

—-

LOL — some of us hollywood types are happily married and like to stay home and watch tv while surfing the net.

331. Dennis Bailey - January 22, 2010

I don’t know if I’d like them to remake “Star Wars” but they couldn’t help but improve the prequels. LOL

332. Damian - January 22, 2010

You do have a point about Droxine, though they did not have a relationship per se. The Romulan Commander was an issue with him playing the part of a spy, kind of like James Bond, and I don’t know if I would count that. Spock Prime was clearly a logical being, almost attaining Kolinahr. Not perfect but usually a good Vulcan when not under the influence. New Spock does not have all the emotional control of the Old Spock. We’ll see where they take this road. But there is a difference, however subtle.

333. gingerly - January 22, 2010

#328

That is, in addition to being “aliens” in a story they have a meaningful purpose in showing us ourselves better which becomes lost if Vulcan means the same thing as human.

Sarek not only had a relationship with, but married two human women and he never came off as the same thing, as human to me.

334. boborci - January 22, 2010

329. Chrissy – January 22, 2010

G’night and good luck on presentation!

335. Damian - January 22, 2010

I think I must be getting tired because I’m contradicting myself now. I said earlier that New Spock does not have to be different than old and then later I said they were different. I should clarify by stating that obviously they will develop differently because of the circumstances (his mother’s death, etc) but at the core they are the same person. Bob Orci has said that while this is a new universe, the characters are ultimately the same and would do some of the same things. They still have the same soul, if you will.

336. Canon Schmanon - January 22, 2010

Boborci – Didn’t know you were happily married. Good for you and more power to you. I think you’ve done a great job with Trek and while you are indeed under more pressure to deliver the next time, there are worse kinds of stress, no?

337. patrick - January 22, 2010

lol.

i’m glad it’s happened. TREK 2009 fans are just as rabidly defensive about their trek-heroes (actors) as too many TOS-fans were before the new movie came out.

my personal-opinion is not an argument. to engage me in such a way shows that your comment is reactionary. and that you lack the dignity of which i spoke – beginning by showing disrespect for others with opinions different than your own.

338. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

333: “Sarek not only had a relationship with, but married two human women and he never came off as the same thing, as human to me.”

And you never saw Sarek and Amanda trying to swallow each others faces on the transporter pad before either.

339. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Hey, welcome Bob. Good to see you monitoring things.

340. Bernie - January 22, 2010

The film was entertaining but a bit shallow. Some of the makers wanted to inject Star Wars into Star Trek. Star Trek is not Star Wars! Star Trek has stood for intelligent science fiction for over forty years. Sorry, Rush Limbaugh, Gene Roddenberry had a humanistic view of the future. Intlelligence. Compassion. These were reflected in episodes such as “City on the Edge of Forever”, “Arena”, “The Empath”, “Mirror, Mirror”, “The Doomsday Machine” etc. Even the Next Generation got into the act with “The Chase”, and “The Inner Light” etc. In the movie, Kirk came off as a young punk. I would like to see a more thoughtful Kirk as we have seen in “Arena” and “Mirror, Mirror.”

As far as the writers saying they are preserving canon, I disagree. You do not save canon by destroying Vulcan, one of the founding members of the Federation. There was no need to create an alternate timeline. Stories could have been told within the existing timeline. I can only hope that Roberto Orci will put the breaks on anything like turning Jean Luc Picard into a vintner, Janeway into a dog breeder or Kirk into a professional wrestler.

Look, I like a space battle as much as the next guy but I want more intelligence in a Star Trek moive. It might just take a few more lines of dialogue. Additionally, message driven science fiction can be profitable. See “Avatar” and “District 9.” The next movie should avoid trying to remake “Khan.” Enough of the villains seeking revenge. “Khan”, “Insurrection” “Nemesis” and this film have all some villain looking for revenge. Some of the best Star Trek did not have a villain. See Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Let’s hope that J.J. and Damon get a chance to see some of the great, intelligent episodes of Star Trek. I know that Roberto Orci has.

341. gingerly - January 22, 2010

@boborci

If that’s really you, thank you for your hard work. I know writers tend to get shaft in Hollywood and don’t get proper recoginition for their efforts only the blame when things go wrong, even if that’s because the director made them do it.

So, seriously kudos for bringing back Trek and doing such and awesome job balancing the cool, the action, the authenticity, and the character moments.

Everyone thought it was impossible but you guys did it! To cop another sci-fi favorite. You and Kurtzman are BIG DAMN HEROES.

You rock, man. :)

342. boborci - January 22, 2010

336. Canon Schmanon – January 22, 2010
I think you’ve done a great job with Trek and while you are indeed under more pressure to deliver the next time, there are worse kinds of stress, no?
——

for sure — l’m the luckiest guy ever.

343. boborci - January 22, 2010

338. dmduncan – January 22, 2010
And you never saw Sarek and Amanda trying to swallow each others faces on the transporter pad before either.

—–

LOL

344. patrick - January 22, 2010

boborci!

william shatner as the mirror-universe captain kirk?

345. gingerly - January 22, 2010

#338

And you never saw Sarek and Amanda trying to swallow each others faces on the transporter pad before either.

lol I didn’t see that in this movie either.

I saw a man sharing a tender moment with the woman he loved right before a mission he was certain he had only 4% of chance of coming back from.

Logically, he was getting what he could from what he thought was his last moment with her.

…And this was immediately following his father telling him that he loved his mother.

It seemed to make perfect narrative sense, to me.

And that’s not even accounting for the lol value of Kirk and Scotty’s reactions and the reveal of Uhura’s first name.

346. Damian - January 22, 2010

Obviously the whole S/U thing is very important (Hell, we have an abbreviation for it now). Maybe the next movie should be a romantic comedy. We could have a love triangle with Spock, Uhura and Kirk, except with a twist for out LGBT friends. Maybe Kirk should tell Spock “It’s me or her”.

I mean, they destroyed Vulcan, Spock’s mom, turned the universe upside down, and everyone is upset that Spock played tonsil hockey with Uhura.

I guess I shouldn’t talk. After “Generations” I did not care that Kirk was dead. No, I was all PO’d that they destroyed the Enterprise-D, which was the coolest ship ever.

347. Teenie - January 22, 2010

And you never saw Sarek and Amanda trying to swallow each others faces on the transporter pad before either.

Come on now, those kisses were as chaste as it comes. You are either being very dramatic or didn’t catch the same movie I did.

348. Chrissy - January 22, 2010

In dmduncan’s orginal post it said: AVATAR…..appeal is much broader, and that’s the model to follow, not a trading off of one fan region for another…

That is why I answered: “In my opinion,… Bob,Alex, and JJ are doing a good job at this. I don’t believe they are trying to pit one clique against another

dmduncan’s other original quote said: If Bob, Alex, and JJ put the story and characters first and make it all understandable, they will earn a majority applause for a job well done, even if certain individuals dislike certain plot points here and there. And that, really is the best that they can do. What’s the alternative? Go after the teen girl crowd in the hopes of having New Moon’s success, and at the expense of all those people who won’t see such a product more than once, like me?

AVATAR in essence did go after a ‘certain’ crowd. It is why JC says he spent upwards of five years developing the GRAPHICS for the movie. It is the same philosophy used to create Transformers. AMAZING GRAPHICS, not an insightful STORY. Several critics have commented that the story was lacking, and that the story seemed to be a rehashing of movies already done. So in essence AVATAR did go after their own “teen girl crowd” who just happened to be people who adore GRAPHICS… So you’re encouraging the ST writers to follow AVATAR, which in essence is what you said you didn’t want…and I quote….”not a trading off of one fan region for another…” They went after a certain crowd– those into graphics– and got what they wanted.

My argument, on the other hand, is that there is room for more than just one crowd. Adding in the S/U relationship should do nothing to take away the Vulcaness from Spock and the crowd that adores him. It was clear that even in TOS, he several times felt at a loss for the companionship of a woman, AFTER, short relationships with HUMANS nonetheless. In each episode, after the effects of whatever had affected him he was slightly emotional and slightly distraught, but still remained Vulcan. So why is it any different here?

Having Spock in a relationship does not humanize him. Just as in real life, a American marrying a Chinese person doesn’t make the American one Asian, and the Asian one American. And if your argument is “Well their traits rub off on the other person”….as was stated earlier, over the course of the original show, the human traits of his friends rubbed off of on Spock anyway.

Now look after I was supposed to be ending to go work on my presentation you have me typing away here…. Now seriously this time, I’m going to sign off.. It was nice chatting with you. Hopefully, one day in the future, we’ll be on the same side of the fence….

Have a good night!

349. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

346: Look, I loved the film, and at least I don’t squint so hard now when I see those scenes that you find so appealing. But I definitely loved the elder Spock’s character more. I’ not COMPLAINING about Dirty Harry Spock, because showing how these characters were when they were young makes them seem more real, because we are all different when we are younger, but it’s also true that if they don’t change it makes them seem less real.

Question is, how will they change? Will Spock recover his self control and not need what Uhura is offering him anymore? Is he going to lose some of that edge, or become Star trek’s resident enforcer? Will Kirk take the stick out of his butt and refuse to play like a mop?

I want to see the changes happen.

350. Damian - January 22, 2010

I did not care all that much about the whole S/U thing. My last comments were mostly in jest (I’m getting punchy). When I saw it the first time, I’ll admit I was a little shocked, but it just was not that important to me. I don’t know why I am even posting about it. Again getting punchy. I better go to bed soon. My wife is giving me strange looks and asking what I’m doing. These boards are too addictive. I’ll need a 12 step program soon.

351. Teenie - January 22, 2010

Damian, you would think that the whole movie was Spock and Uhura going by some of these comments. They were a very small part of a very big movie. I’m not sure where all the outrage is coming from. So what Spock fell for a human. So did his dad (a full Vulcan)–twice! The huge deal being made out of something very subtle is really hard for me to wrap my brain around.

Well, that and the comments that suggest that Uhura be bounced from one relationship to another just to please them, and then in the same breath you ask for more females to be focused on, and for a full bromance between Spock/Kirk/Bones, and for a certain villain, or no villain at all, and… Really people.

The writers have breathed a new life into the franchise. People who didn’t care one iota about Star Trek before, shelled out money to see it in theater and buy it on DVD. Why not accept that this is not TOS Trek? That the characters will not be a replica of TOS? We were told that this is a reboot, an alternate history reboot. Things have changed and it’s unfortunate that there are still some afraid to change with it or at least accept that this will not be TOS.

352. VeratheGun - January 22, 2010

My last word on Spock/Uhura is this: women liked it, in general. And you can’t have a successful mainstream film these days without the female audience. It doesn’t mean that what we saw in the first movie is the end of their story.

Every character in the next chapter is going to have a problem to solve. Every character is going to have obstacles to overcome. Some of them may not be successful. Relationships are going to both deepen and perhaps even fracture. It’s why we love fiction in the first place.

No one fan owns Trek. What works for some may not work for another. But the reality is that these movies are made to make money and that means reaching the widest audience possible. I know several couples in which the woman was reluctantly dragged to ST12 and ended up loving it. THAT is success, my friends; that is what will keep people anticipating the next film and lining up when it’s ready.

You want to destroy all the good will TREK now has among the general populace? Take it back to a male, geek-centric dynamic it has had in the last few years.

353. gingerly - January 22, 2010

349

Will Spock recover his self control and not need what Uhura is offering him anymore? Is he going to lose some of that edge, or become Star trek’s resident enforcer? Will Kirk take the stick out of his butt and refuse to play like a mop?

…I want to see the changes happen.

lol I’d love to know what you think Uhura is offering him.

You think he’s an enforcer because he lost emotional control after being taunted about not loving his mother. This after losing ALL of Vulcan and her?

He freaked after a single Vulcan ship blew up in the show. Again, I see consistency.

Kirk stick in his butt? lol What?

354. patrick - January 22, 2010

teenie, perhaps some people don’t like the new characters/characterizations NOT because they’re not like the old TOS-versions, but because they simply don’t LIKE them?

is it unreasonable to find ANY criticism of the new film?

various actors have played numerous versions of Batman, Sherlock Holmes, Superman, James Bond, etc.

expressing a preference for one’s own entertainment should not suffer that person to being belittled by another comment-maker. showing more respect for fictional-characters than their fellow-humans here on trekmovie.com

remember today and in the past – “it’s just a tv-show”

355. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

349: “AVATAR in essence did go after a ‘certain’ crowd. It is why JC says he spent upwards of five years developing the GRAPHICS for the movie. It is the same philosophy used to create Transformers. AMAZING GRAPHICS, not an insightful STORY. Several critics have commented that the story was lacking, and that the story seemed to be a rehashing of movies already done. So in essence AVATAR did go after their own “teen girl crowd” who just happened to be people who adore GRAPHICS…”

Avatar has had an extremely broad appeal, not only in America, but around the world. Certain means particular here, so you can’t say Avatar appeals to a “certain crowd” and mean a very broad collection of crowds, because then you don’t mean “certain” (particular) anymore.

“It was clear that even in TOS, he several times felt at a loss for the companionship of a woman, AFTER, short relationships with HUMANS nonetheless. In each episode, after the effects of whatever had affected him he was slightly emotional and slightly distraught, but still remained Vulcan. So why is it any different here?”

The difference is where Spock’s equilibrium is. Is it going to be the same in these new movies as it was in TOS? If it is, I have no complaints, for the reasons I explained why it was important to keep the Vulcans the way Nimoy had played Spock. But if you change Spock’s center of gravity, that place where he feels most like himself, and move him more toward the Clint Eastwood, THEN you begin to lose the contrast onscreen between human and Vulcan, and THAT contrast has conceptual value, which I’ve tried to point out. Us Spock going to be Vulcan, or Romulan, now, who are basically pointy eared humans?

“Having Spock in a relationship does not humanize him. Just as in real life, a American marrying a Chinese person doesn’t make the American one Asian, and the Asian one American. And if your argument is “Well their traits rub off on the other person”….as was stated earlier, over the course of the original show, the human traits of his friends rubbed off of on Spock anyway.”

That’s not my argument. And you can’t compare two humans of different races to human and alien matrimony anyway.

My argument is NOT about the internal ontology of the Star Trek universe: CAN Vulcans love and marry? It’s about the functional significance and dramatic purpose that Vulcans play in relation to humans in the artwork that Star Trek is.

There ARE no real Vulcans, so ALL this stuff, Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans, its really all about US anyway.

356. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Us = Is

357. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

Which again is: Spock is too logical, and McCoy too emotional, whereas Kirk is the balance that leads, so it’s not about ontological questions regarding Star Trek’s universe, it’s about functional meanings in a work of art, because Spock and the Vulcans, the Klingons, the Ferengi do not mean real aliens out there. All of those things are really aspects of ourselves, and when you start making things more alike you actually lose the language by which to distinguish differences you need to see.

So in a nutshell, that’s why I think Nimoy’s interpretation of Spock is timeless, and why it’s important for Quinto Spock to grow into.

358. Teenie - January 22, 2010

Patrick, that could very well be the case for some, but from what I see here, majority have a problem with the characters not being enough like their TOS originators. I’ve yet to read a comment that outright said they just didn’t like a reboot character.

359. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

352: “Damian, you would think that the whole movie was Spock and Uhura going by some of these comments.”

Teenie, right NOW the discussion is about Spock/Uhura. In other threads the conversations went on about Khan, the engine room, or why the Shatner scene wasn’t included, etc, etc, etc. As the Bare Naked Ladies sang, “It’s all been done.”

But in this time and place it’s about Spock/Uhura.

354: “You think he’s an enforcer because he lost emotional control after being taunted about not loving his mother. This after losing ALL of Vulcan and her?”

Oh no. Spock had an edge throughout most of the movie even before Vulcan was blown up. He lost his temper as a kid. He was snarky in an almost Sylar-like way at the Vulcan council. He was peremptory, impatient, throughout. He was…young!

“Kirk stick in his butt? lol What?”

Kirk was used as a mop in ST.09. How many times did this guy or that use Kirk to clean the floors?

360. ebonbird - January 22, 2010

@ boborci

I enjoyed the Star Trek film from start to finish. It pleased me that I could rec it to my friends, and not have to wince through their aggravated complaints about sitting through a talky, ‘cerebral’ glacially-paced film where all the characters talked alike by the time credits rolled at the end.

I commend y’all for doing away with the Shatner cameo. I also commend y’all for blowing up Vulcan. OMG. A genocide happened and it wasn’t waved off as insignificant. I was floored. Particularly since genocide is ongoing and present, but, when it comes to the “developed” world, these horrific events are waved off as insignificant. Fictionally, you embraced change. You didn’t ‘fridge a convenient race of people, set up as an allegory for ‘doomed primitive folk’ so that Spock or someone else could go through a crisis that lead to character growth. Rather, you took out a people group that matters SO much to the fans and the story’s universe! For Vulcan to go boom, and for that to be named genocide, on screen, by a character as well-known, loved, and admired as Spock? Sadly, maybe for many viewers if was the first time genocide came close to being real I’ll bet. Yay you!

And for Spock to be directly affected? Oh, goodness that was bold and fresh. Trek was relevant to things that are happening right now and well Wow. WOW. Way to do things in the spirit of using story to examine and explore this particular world and to hopefully (prophetically) contribute to this one becoming the best world possible.

As to Spock/Uhura — I’m hoping that Uhura being a daughter of Earth, and a citizen of the USA (United States of Africa) is explored more in the other movies. One of the things I really didn’t like about the original series was the sameness of the Earth people despite the glorious range of phenotypes of Federation and Earth types on the show. I’m hoping that Uhura, being fluent in many human languages as well as Federation ones, will have a view of sentience as nuanced, if not more so, than Spock’s. We’ll get to see more of her badness rather than be told it. Though, it’s something for Spock to bear witness.

Tell you what, I found the movie hopeful and troubling, much like life on Earth and also? Thanks so much for writing a Kirk I recognized as mine, particularly when he threw himself off the drilling platform and into the sky to save Sulu.

But, more women next time, and more Uhura being a linguistics/sound engineer/interpreter/translator badass. And maybe an explanation for why this Scotty is so mean compared to the original?

In any case, I look forward to seeing a different version of your best.

:)

361. dmduncan - January 22, 2010

I’ve got to go. I am dangerously close to being used as a mop in my own house by a lovely lady with angry eyes.

362. boborci - January 22, 2010

360. ebonbird – January 22, 2010

Lovely. thank you.

363. patrick - January 22, 2010

yes, teenie, i’ve made those comparisons also. since the TOS is the only other Kirk-Spock-McCoy-Crew to compare it too, that seems inevitable.

it’s easy to point to those original portrayals as examples opposed to the new cast/characterizations.

perhaps after they moved on

and i think the filmmakers decision to create this alternate time-line, instead of simply announcing an all-new version of star trek, only feeds into this debate. i don’t notice the new Sherlock Holmes film trying to explain why Robert Downey’s Holmes doesn’t act like Basil Rathbone. and no-one is likely to ask the producers of the new Spiderman-franchise, why their movie won’t follow-up on the stories from the Spiderman-films of the last decade?

but don’t be surprised if Spiderman-fans have this same debate – comparing the new actor to Tobey Maguire.

and personally, i don’t dislike any of the new actors (but do add me to the budweiser-engineering room haters-list). lol

364. boborci - January 22, 2010

363. patrick – January 22, 2010
i don’t notice the new Sherlock Holmes film trying to explain why Robert Downey’s Holmes doesn’t act like Basil Rathbone. and no-one is likely to ask the producers of the new Spiderman-franchise, why their movie won’t follow-up on the stories from the Spiderman-films of the last decade?


Respectfully, Sherlock and Spiderman AIN’T TREK!

365. ryanhuyton - January 22, 2010

What I witnessed from the Spock/Uhura kiss wasn’t so much romance as Uhura’s way of offering support to a character who had just experienced the trauma of his people’s genocide and near-extinction. Uhura just happened to use a “kiss” as her way to connect with Spock. Spock was already struggling with his human side and the destruction of Vulcan added more emotional turmoil and vulnerability. Uhura probably kissed Spock to help him deal with his emotions and not to be ashamed of them.
It is possible that Uhura does care for Spock in a romantic way, but without the destruction of Vulcan, that scene wouldn’t have occurred. Uhura probably felt that words were ineffective, and so she kissed him as her token of support. I don’t think Spock expected it, but he understood it.
I also think that Spock and Uhura’s relationship is probably more spiritual than purely romantic. I doubt Spock would enter into a romantic/sexual relationship with a fellow crew member, but I do think Uhura will become his “rock”, a person he can talk to in a way he can’t with anyone else. Not even his father or his best friend, James T. Kirk. This is just a guess of course, since I didn’t write the movie, but that is my interpretation.

366. Desstruxion - January 22, 2010

Give Kirk a beard, have Khan assimilated by the Borg, Kirk passes out and Archer takes command and at the same time Porthos re-materializes on the bridge. It’s late, I’m grasping.

367. refuge5 - January 22, 2010

everytime I read anything about the Kirk Prime scene that wasn’t it really makes me think that the one mistake this movie made was leaving it out! Then again I would have rang out a Hallelujah chorus during my first viewing if it had made the film – by the end of the movie I was a giddy mess… so …. dammit and thank you I guess all at the same time….

368. Desstruxion - January 22, 2010

Sherlock and Spidey aint even a left warp nacelles bussard collector.

369. Curt - January 22, 2010

Can these guys do anything other than remakes?

370. patrick - January 22, 2010

although my preference would be for all-new stories in the new Trek-features, Star Trek does have an allowance to re-cover it’s classic stories.

for instance, any new Superman franchise is likely to retell his origin-story. just as the new Spiderman movie will and Batman Begins displaced Tim Burton’s version.

so there’s no reason NOT to redo SPACE SEED (as opposed to TWOK which wouldn’t happen without SPACE SEED) or MIRROR MIRROR, etc etc.

however, the enormous creative talents and energies of the new Trek-team shouldn’t be at all pressured to unnecessarily revisit old-trek.

however, i do note that the series ENTERPRISE floundered quite a bit UNTIL Manny Coto brought more TOS cross-over elements to the show contributed to what many feel were that shows best stories.

so including elements relating to TOS is logical.

371. gingerly - January 22, 2010

#359

lol Well, then I agree with you, then. Though, I understood why they made him a mop in this one. It humanized him and made more sympathetic than if he just came into things already a badass.

But yes, by the next movie he should have his fight game down, a’la Star Trek series Kirk.

And yes, young Spock did have an edge, but only when it came to his mom, which I think was appropriate given the subject. As for the relationship with Uhura, Spock was always a smoothie. Very poetic is his approach and view of women in the series.

I also think the Oedipal thing came into play with his attraction to her.

She displayed similar traits to his mom her very human heart on her sleeve, compassion and an unwavering acceptance for who he was, Vulcan, human, whatever he needed to be.

See the parallels between Amanda and Spock before the council and Uhura and Spock in the turbolift, for example.

He was pretty much old school Spockian in all other respects, snarky, haughty, sarcastic with that very human heart, etc.

372. ryanhuyton - January 22, 2010

Bob, if you’re stll reading, I really loved the movie and consider it a classic.

But I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind getting J.J and Alex to post on this site. It would be cool. I understand you all are pretty busy, but we have all enjoyed having you interact with the fans.

373. boborci - January 22, 2010

372. ryanhuyton – January 22, 2010
next time we are all together, i’ll ask JJ to post. Alex could be tougher!

374. patrick - January 22, 2010

definitely wasn’t faulting the new TREK-film for using the distinguished Leonard Nimoy as Spock-prime to carefully re-thread the Trek-timeline. in fact, it was exceedingly clever.

however, in my answer to Teenie, i was offering my thoughts that by “continuing” the TOS-timeline, it may have contibuted to the continuation of comparing old and new. of course, that debate began even before the release of the new film with too many TOS-fans already criticizing ST2009 before it was even released. not very fair, i always felt.

thanks for your reply, Mr. Orci

375. boborci - January 22, 2010

374. patrick – January 22, 2010

Fair point.

376. Desstruxion - January 22, 2010

Bob, I know that the “original” crew is just getting started (again) but I was wondering if maybe this new incarnation of Trek might one day spawn a spin-off of it’s own. Has anyone looked that far ahead? Even if it was a quip over lunch where someone said “hey wouldn’t it be cool if one day we…” I’m not talking about a new Next Gen or DS9 but a new show based on characters that we may not have met yet. Your canvas is wide open. Trek is just now being written again. Infinite possibilities.

377. patrick - January 22, 2010

to add more Female-Leads to the 21st-Century trek, it might be cool to introduce the Majel-Barrett “number one”.

TOS gave no clue whatever happened to her after the events in “the Cage” so maybe she could become a semi-regular with the new cast or in command of another Federation-ship (spin-off series perhaps, lol)

378. boborci - January 22, 2010

376. Desstruxion – January 22, 2010

We think it’s bad luck to think that way (although at night I can’t help it)!

We hope it is enough to respectfully free the continuity from canon so that others may run with it in novels and TV.

379. ebonbird - January 22, 2010

362. boborci – January 22, 2010

My pleasure. Ever welcome.

380. Desstruxion - January 22, 2010

patrick’s onto something. like the number one spinoff idea.

381. Spooky - January 22, 2010

There seems to be a perception here that all the female fans are gushing over the Spock/Uhura romance. I just wanted to give a shout out for all the female fans who weren’t too crazy about it. As females and Trek fans, both my mother and I have managed to enjoy the original series and the movies just fine without it, being drawn to the friendship between Kirk, Spock and Bones, and the thought provoking storylines.

Ultimately, I think you guys should just “do what feels right” for the characters, as Spock Prime would say :P. If it feels right to end the Spock/Uhura relationship, do it. If it feels right to expand on it, do that. But don’t feel like you need to insert a romance into a sci-fi film just to draw in a female audience. Give us female sci-fi fans a little credit! This isn’t a romance franchise, and anyone who’s *only* in this franchise for the Spock/Uhura romance would probably be more at home watching Love Actually.

382. gingerly - January 22, 2010

boborci

I know you can’t reveal spoilers, but hoping this is ambiguous enough of a question:

Should fans who like Spock and Uhura together be hopeful?

383. boborci - January 22, 2010

382. gingerly – January 22, 2010

I’ll say this. We’re not going to pretend it never happened.

384. boborci - January 22, 2010

have a good weekend everybody — g’night!

385. Desstruxion - January 22, 2010

later Bob. Thanks.

386. patrick - January 22, 2010

thanks, Desstruxion.

as the years and cast-costs increase, having a secondary TREK-film series (or tv-series) could free-up the currect TREK-producers to move some of our characters to that other franchise eventually. after all, in the original time-line it’s clear (from TMP, for example) that the many of the ENTERPRISE-crew went on to other things after the 5-year mission.

and with all the regular characters required to appear in every film, it creates that additional challenge of crafting script after script that successfully tells a story while ALSO giving every TOS-character good-scenes. think how sadly poor Walter Koenig’s Chekov was so often neglected and Doohan’s Scotty used for grumpy comedy-relief.

eventually moving STAR TREK2009 characters to another ship/franchise might give more breathing-room for the writers

387. devon - January 22, 2010

dmduncan…. Man, No Offense but just as Kira Nerys said to Gul Dukat in the shuttlecraft during the episode “Indiscretion” from Deep space Nine, “You really do love the sound of your own voice!?!” Let it go already, we get it : you don’t support the Spock/Uhura relationship. But guess what, alot of us do and so did the writers as evidenced by the film itself. You’ll just have to swallow this one, or stop watching… Logically you only have 2 choices. This is not ST:TOS but more like ST:Newstyle TOS, same beloved characters, but with a twist! What if the writers do something dramatic in the next movie and announce that Sulu is gay in this reality as he is NewSulu not PrimeSulu and his life experience sets him on a completely different path, what will you do IMPLODE! These are not our beloved TOS characters no more than the Mirror universe versions or any other alternate timeline versions are of any of our Star Trek family of characters…it’s complicated! Like Janeway said about Temporal mechanics, “it gives one a headache!”, and quite frankly, like Dukat prattling on to the sound of his own voice, I like Kira am getting annoyed and like Janeway am getting a headache! Please no more posts on a single topic… we’ve all heard you loud and clear in your opposition!
Good Night Sir, … Peace & Long Life!

388. devon - January 22, 2010

Great work Bob & gang! Stick to your guns, and you better not pretend that it (Spock/Uhura) didn’t happen, and if the relationship changes drastically then there had better be a damn good reason for it! I can accept almost anything if there is good reason, but catering to the naysayers is not a valid reason and won’t get you any further ahead in the long run. A good movie script with great character development will do that for you, so trust your instincts: you added the relationship to the movie, it worked, build upon it. As I’ve said before you’ll never please everyone,so don’t try. Concentrate on great storytelling and let the characters evolve organically according to the script.

389. Nata - January 22, 2010

#305 To suggest the S/U kiss is somehow comparable to, or even that it speaks to, the K/U kiss of the 1960s is completely false.
I agree. To be as groundbreaking as K/U kiss was then, it has to be, say, a kiss between Kirk and Spock. Or Kirk and McCoy. Or, I dunno, Scotty and Keenser. I’m not joking – just trying to show how shocking and brave that K/U kiss was then, and on a family entertainment show!
I watched a lot of Mission Impossible (mostly for Nimoy) and it was very noticeable how Barney, a black character, was not only restricted to black girls but he also fought only black guys – he was never shown hitting a white guy. Makes you really appreciate Star Trek more.

As for why S/U kisses are causing such a racket – I venture to guess it’s not because they are groundbreaking in any way, but because they affect Spock character a lot, and for many people Spock IS Star Trek. Spock is its icon, its symbol – what have you. Mess with him too much, take away too much of his Spockiness – people get upset.

And his Spockiness is him being an alien. Not fitting anywhere, but working on it all his life. That’s why comparison of Sarek and Amanda being an item does not work – Sarek fits. He is (was) at home on Vulcan. He’s at home in his house, with his wife (and Spock was never at home even at his house). There’s no conflict for him which is comparable to Spock’s.

New Spock looks like he already found his home – with Uhura. Because I’d hate for her to be a dame of an hour, like Romulan Commander or Zarabeth in TOS. She’s a regular, she’s a beloved character herself – if you deside to involve her with someone, she’s there to stay. And when I said I loved the thought of Uhura/Chekhov – I meant INSTEAD of S/U, not AFTER S/U. I wish she got involved with someone else in the first place, but if she’s with Spock now, it should be treated seriously.
But what it does to Spock – it removes his major internal conflict. The belonging. They love each other – so Spock becomes like Sarek, he fits.

And what’s left to explore?
The alien perspective, the logic, the Eastern vs. Western philosopy – remember all his TOS arguments with a Westerner Kirk about should they intervene in some society or preserve its balance? About respect for forms of life unlike your own etc.?
Well, that was pretty much out of the window in the end of the movie, when Spock tells Kirk not to show mercy to Nero.
Will he come back from that? Will he try to atone for this lapse of Surakian morality? If not, then how’s he still different from a regular Starfleet human officer? How can he still provide an outside perspective?

TOS Spock, Spock!Prime, stayed an alien even after he found peace with his humanity – he chose to be an alien on Romulus, to serve as a bridge, as an outsider with a fresh perspective, for yet another culture.
And he even got married before that – it was mentioned by Picard in TNG-”Sarek”. So he did found a home for some period of his life, but it wasn’t shown (as Spock with a home is not Spock) and when we see him in Unification he’s an alien again – and single again, we assume.

What I loved about St-2009 and “Countdown” is that “Unification” story was followed up – I do think it’s the most profound and poignant story, and very relevant to modern issues, and still unresolved. Spock’s quest for understanding between cultures is still unresolved, and appears to fail in both timelines. I’d hate for it being left like that, and hope it will get attention in the sequel.

But I digress. I wanted to say that there’s a reason people are protective of Spock character – as it’s a reason why he became such a beloved symbol. Yes, it’s a reboot, characters are not the same. But the very revival is due for reboot going to its roots, tapping the same beloved sources. There’s a reason they were so beloved.

Ok, not done yet. It’s not just Uhura relationship which changes Spock in the new movie.
It is also Sarek. He is so PC, so suburban American dad, so accepting – and one more internal conflict for Spock appears to be gone. No father issues. Yes, he’s still being picked on by classmates, but he can find at least a tacit understanding in nuSarek.
Watch TAS Yesteryear to see how old Sarek would have dealt with it – he’d make Spock feel like inadequeate dirt about this. And maybe, according to Unification-I, would’ve even added a few smacks of his own. And old Amanda would mostly side with her husband – she loved her son, but you’d get a feeling she loved her husband a bit more. They were nothing like a conventional family, none of them.
Spock didn’t feel at home even at his home – that’s the point. His stoic acceptance of this made us love him even more.
NuSpock was at home at his home, and comparing to old Spock, he got it so much easier. He wasn’t at home outside, in the Vulcan society. That’s the conflict that was shown, yes. For me – not enough.

So it’ll be interesting to see how S/U relationship could be developed while keeping Spock in conflict with himself, and an outsider. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but now, with a loving partner at his side, it’ll be trickier.

390. patrick - January 22, 2010

and just as ST2009 has masterfully expanded Trek’s popularity and fandom, i’d like to see the sequel do for Trek’s international acclaim. i understand even this Trek only did modestly well in some foreign-markets.

and i find that odd since i’d always heard that Trek-TV was broadcast all over the world in many languages.

perhaps now, with the new cast established, some top-name stars could finally start to appear in Trek.

391. Mel - January 22, 2010

There isn’t even one comment of someone who is against the S/U relationship in this thread, who is against it because Spock and Uhura are of different races (human and Vulcan). There is also no one who didn’t like it because Zachary Quinto is white and Zoe Saldana black. Yet many fans of S/U accused people who didn’t like it of racism.

There is also no one who didn’t like S/U who said that women with a job can’t have a relationship or that women in a relationship should give up their job and stay at home and be a housewife. Yet many S/U fans accuse opponents of such an attitude.

The best invalid accusation was so far when someone combined those reproaches and seemed to think that people who are against the S/U relationship want to have a time back when people with a dark skin colour were slaves or at least only accepted in lowly paid jobs in the USA.

I really wonder why some S/U fans think that someone who didn’t like it is a racist and/or sexist. Like there aren’t tons of other reasons why someone could be against it.

I for example are against it because I think the relationship comes out of nowhere, that those characters lack chemistry and the whole relationship seems forced to me because of that.

I also prefer to see other things instead of the S/U relationship. Every minute of screen time is precious. We don’t have here a series where we can watch every week an episode. A whole series also consist of countless of minutes. Instead we have a movie every three years with lowly two hours screen time. Even five minutes is much in such a situation!

I prefer to see every precious minute used to show other things. Like for example I rather see a Spock McCoy banter than a Spock kissing Uhura scene. I would have prefered to see more of the youth years of Kirk and Spock. The time could have been used to see more of Nero whose character could have been fleshed out a little more in my opinion. For me there are just many many things I find more interesting than the Spock/Uhura relationship.

All in all I would also prefer if they concentrate more on the Kirk, Spock, McCoy friendship. That was what TOS make so great for me. To see that three so different personalities are such good friends and could work so well together. More of that please and especially more of McCoy who didn’t have enough screen time in my opinion.

That by the way didn’t mean that I am against changes to the TOS universe. I for example think that destroying Vulcan was a good idea because of the possibilities it has for future movies. But that doesn’t mean that every change to the TOS universe is good just because it is a change. Not without reason is TOS still loved by many people decades after is was made. I don’t see a good reason to abandon the good aspect of the series. When it comes to the bad special effects, the cheesy costumes, a lot of woman being only on the show as optical decoration, love interests of Kirk and to play the damsel in distress, I am really for changes.

All in all I just prefer other things in Star Trek more then watching romances between main character. Feel free to accuse me of racism or sexism because of that or that I am old-fashioned. By the way I am not an old guy born in the 40s. I am a young woman who hoped to combine a professional career with a family life when I am a few years older.

392. Pro-Khan-sel - January 22, 2010

I say that the new film will begin with a battle with the klingons and then on the way to the next assignment, the botony bay is discovered.

393. Harry Ballz - January 22, 2010

Bob, a question…..

With Spock Prime having mind-melded with alternate reality Kirk……wouldn’t that give young Kirk a “mental imprint” of every adventure the crew had experienced in the Prime universe, and therefore an unfair advantage when his new crew now encounter anything remotely similar?

Kind of a “heads up” if you will……….

394. supremelurker - January 22, 2010

@391 Have a look at this quiz http://ankhesen-mie.livejournal.com/24009.html. #7 completely debunks your “came out of nowhere” line of thinking. And if urls aren’t allowed click my name for the link. My guess is the point of the quiz will be completely lost on you but oh well.

395. Hellcat Mary - January 23, 2010

I’d first like to address the fact that there are multiple levels of fandom, that don’t revolve around the romantic entanglement of two or more characters. Typically, ships are even what I consider to be a sub-fandom, especially in scifi, since they’re generally not the focal point canonically and usually just good, clean (right, usually not so clean) fun for the writer/artist/lurker.

I mean, you really can’t consider yourself a real fan, much less a ‘trekkie’, if you’re only going into the movies multiple times for what amounted to roughly 10 minutes of kissy face. There’s so much more to love about this franchise and this movie. (Uh, set visuals, special effects, acting, writing, camera work… I could go on)

Unfortunately, here’s the part where I have to slightly contradict myself. Star Trek is one of those scifi-action-what have yous that DOES have a relationship at its heart, right alongside the cool made up science and phasers and warp cores and alien women and interplanetary hijinks.

That being said, I do not find S/U unfitting simply because I might like another pairing better. In fact, I imagine only a small percentage of those who are discontented with S/U are only so because it’s just not their ship. I’m in that boat with everybody who loved everything in Reboot EXCEPT the romance, and I can’t imagine being so perturbed by something as relatively insignificant as a pairing (I have my own ships in fandom, of course, but I’ve never been against a cannon romance enough to not be able to look past it… before now) unless it really, truly didn’t work.

And this is why: It’s absolutely, totally, 100% unnecessary. As in it served absolutely no purpose. Even the reasons the writers gave for assigning the relationship felt like they only made up excuses for doing it after the fact, because somebody asked. I’m serious. Yeah, I sure as hell am one of those who had a WTF moment when it initially happened, but if the chemistry was there I could have gotten over it.

In case you were curious, it wasn’t there. In fact, it kind of felt like every scene between Spock and Uhura was just to let everyone else take a bathroom break, that’s how forced and out-of-the-blue it felt. It distracted from the storyline rather than enhancing it- which I feel is unacceptable. If you’re going to interrupt our scifi action bad ass Star Trek fun with a makeout scene, it needs to move me, not leave me confused. If you’re going to further excuse this interruption by claiming that it was to ultimately offer dimension and drive to the characters… well, perhaps it’s best that it not detract from most identifiable aspects of those characters’ established and long adored personalities.

I’d like to go ahead and rebuff as many ‘but it’s NOT TOS it’s NUTrek!’ arguments as I can. I know that. I get that. I revel in that. I’ll reiterate, I LOVE what they did with Reboot. I thought the line between homage and innovation was blurred BEAUTIFULLY. But I’m siding with the crowd who’s questioning where the epic Kirk and Spock friendship is going if Uhura is suddenly Spock’s central connection to humanity? Yes, to remain completely linear to the original series would be boring, and what would be the point of a remake, but if you’re going to seemingly disregard the central mainframe of the two primary characters’ development and further deviate from such an essential focal point of the entire series… well, what’s the point of calling it Trek?

So I suppose I’m mostly put off because:

a) it was, again, an unnecessary and ultimately distracting sub plot-point following in a sad Hollywood trend of EVERY movie, despite the genre, needing some generic romantic fanservice thrown in

and

b) it’s either going to chip away at the writers’ ability to form Spock and Kirk’s friendship into anything even as remotely poignant as it was in TOS, or force the writers out of a corner through a ‘quick fix’ (another Hollywood trend, and usually instituted through a couple lines) by eliminating the S/U relationship altogether, which cheapens the script

Neither direction I imagine will make any side of the demographic happy

So, KUDOS and CONGRATS and all other joyful things on reinventing Star Trek as a flagship of the scifi genre, and making everything really so kick ass visually stunning and keeping (for the most part) true to our beloved characters, and even when you weren’t true you made them SO COOL (for the most part). Excellent job.

I’m just hoping you don’t forget that in this particular franchise there IS a relationship at stake that matters very much to the integrity of the story, regardless if it’s romantic, friendship, bromance, or whatever else your little fan(girl/boy) heart wants to deem it

… But, then again, hopefully I’ll be surprised and it’ll all work out believably through the magic of good writing and I can go back to just enjoying my shiny new Star Trek for the photon torpedoes. (I’m already half over it, now that I’ve ranted my piece)

396. Jack - January 23, 2010

The uhura/Spock thing makes more sense after boborci’s explanation, but I got the sense while watching it that this had been going on for awhile before. Still, I think it worked. And Kirk not getting the girl worked brilliantly.

As for Khan, to mix properties and quote Janeway, “it’s not crunch time yet Mr. Kim”

I don’t think Space Seed was a great episode, it was a good episode, and was unwittingly a brilliant set up — don’t get me wrong – but I think TWOK worked so well for a number of reasons, and one of those was the passage of time… And not just the character of Khan himself. Frankly, there’s not that many new ways the story could turn out, unless Spock and Khan also hook up in the “damned elevator”… and there’s the danger of turning him into a generic Spiderman/batman/Bond villain (er, sort of like Nero, whose revenge plot was pretty Khan- like) I mean that as no slight to the writers — it’s tough to create a nuanced movie villain. I can’t think of many…

397. Jack - January 23, 2010

Ps. There was nothing in the movie to suggest that Uhura didn’t report the transmission… (it bugged me and I’ve thought about it). It wouldn’t have necessarily made it to every Captain in the fleet by the next day, unless she put it on her facebook page.

398. Kat - January 23, 2010

Dear Writers:

Spock/Uhura, whatever, I do not care about that. If you manage not to make Star Trek ‘The Notebook’ in Space, then fine.

@Jack:

See, I disagree about that: ‘Kirk not gettin the girl worked brilliantly’.

No, it didn’t. I already felt that the writers favored Spock A LOT, based on how Kirk was essentially a Frat Boy who got beat up a lot and Spock was Spock only snarky and bad-ass and a sexual being.

And that scene in the transporter room looked like this: Spock gets the girl! He is much cooler than Kirk!
That seemed like an unnecessary scene just to rub that in Kirks face.

Don’t get me wrong: I LOVE Spock. In TOS he was my favorite character. But I think he only works if you make Kirk as awesome as his reputation is and so far…none of that.
He deserves to ‘get the girl’. Because otherwise he’s not Kirk and he’ll mostly serve as an example for how much cooler Spock is.

399. Ralph Pinheiro - January 23, 2010

Mr. Bob Orci,

If you are using TOS as basis for the movie I think they should show a little of Telleritas, Andorians, Klingons which are important races of Star Trek.
For example, the bridge of the USS Kelvin, instead of showing a strange alien for trekkers (Alnschloss K’Bentayr) might have appeared an Andorian. I think that Andorians have good visual

400. TrekkieJan - January 23, 2010

I love this board! I love the comments. I still can’t get over how cool it is that boborci comes on and talks to us.

I am not a fan of Spock/Uhura because I have been a huge fan of Spock since the 60′s (you know, back when the only “ship” in Star Trek was the Enterprise. ^_~) I have also loved Uhura and Nichelle Nichols too, since the 60′s when she was a role model for a professional woman who held her own with the guys. A competent, intelligent, beautiful woman. (Yes, I’m a girl. An oldish girl. But a girl.) Star Trek, among other things, gave me a lifelong appreciation for people – and taught me how we should all work together, no matter where we are from and what color our skin.

To me, being in a relationship with someone does in part define a person and I am used to these two being separate people with their own strengths (although Spock clearly belongs at the side of his Jim.) I can’t get my head around why New Spock is so different in this regard. (And holy hells, yeah, wtf T’Pring? Isn’t he engaged in this universe? How did that change? That has been bothering me!)

What I appreciate about S/U in the new movie is that it’s giving me common ground to talk to 13-25 year old girls who either never heard of Star Trek before or thought it was too geeky. It’s fun to read on boards when they discover (and sometimes love) the old series. I hope the ones who came over here for this discussion stay and keep talking! You guys have promised them romance and I guess I can be polite while you deliver.

Because you, Bob, Alex and JJ, have brought Star Trek back and given it new life and new fans and for that I will forever be grateful. I can’t wait for the next one, truly. I’m already planning to see it 10+ times in the theater too – no matter who kisses who.

401. TrekkieJan - January 23, 2010

Also – kudos to whoever above said the real kiss to harmonize with that ground-breaking Uhura-Kirk kiss would be a Kirk-Spock kiss. So true!

I always wonder why Kirk has such a reputation as a horndog / ladies man. It’s apparent he had a lot of “old flames” from his Academy Days, but the only time he ever tries to seduce anyone in the show, it’s because he’s manipulating them because all else has failed and it’s a last resort. He doesn’t do it for kicks. Watch the shows! He’s forced into sex once, and marries after he’s lost his memory, once. I think that’s about the only time he’s ever shown to actually go all the way, as it were. And he’s not happy about the former, at all.

402. P Technobabble - January 23, 2010

I’m just speculating here, but I have to imagine that when the Supreme Court first sat down to discuss bringing Star Trek back to life, one of the KEY questions had to be: “How do we appeal to a wider female audience?” Star Trek, and probably sci-fi in general, has, historically, appealed to a young, male audience — hence the term “fanBOY.” I’m not saying there aren’t any female fans, but, in proportion, I think the males outnumbered the females. I am guessing the Supreme Court wanted to explore ways to make Trek more emotionally accessible.
When I brought my girlfriend to see Trek09, she knew very little about Star Trek history, and once saw part of TVH (a film that managed to appeal to everyone). She expected Trek09 to be full of aliens, space battles and other aspects of action-adventure. To her surprise (she later told me), there were numerous moments when she had tears in her eyes … the death of Kirk’s father… the death of Spock’s mother, and the Sarek/Spock conversation afterward… and the moment when Uhrua tried to comfort Spock. I think this speaks volumes to what the writers managed to accomplish on an emotional level, and redefine what my girlfriend (and, perhaps, many other women) thought Trek would be.
I’m not trying to speak for everyone, but if my girlfriend’s scenario was felt similarly by large numbers of females, then Star Trek has been lifted out of the “fanboy” state into something much more “sophisticated.” Absolutely nothing wrong with that….

403. Spooky - January 23, 2010

@boborci

I’ve been reading through the boards, and I just wanted to ask, for clarification purposes, the ‘harmony’ you’re talking about, do you mean harmonizing the Kirk-Spock friendship by symbolically giving Spock everything that Kirk has? I’ve noticed a few other instances of this kind of ‘harmony’ in your movie. Spock gets a dead parent because Kirk had a dead parent, Spock gets a stint at being Captain because Kirk was always the Captain, Spock gets a Villain out for personal revenge because Kirk got that in Wrath of Khan. That’s actually kinda… really clever come to think of it, though it still objectifies Uhura by turning her into a ‘thing that Kirk had that Spock gets’, which doesn’t exactly make me like the Spock/Uhura relationship… Still, the idea of harmonizing Kirk and Spock’s friendship is actually really interesting. Hell, Kirk gets Pike as a kind of mentor figure while Spock had that in The Cage. It kinda makes me wonder what other instances of ‘harmony’ there are that I’ve missed…

404. Lando - January 23, 2010

“Orci: We would like to remake Star Wars [laughs]”

Yes, that comment perfectly lines up with the Star Trek movie you wrote the script for.

405. Lando - January 23, 2010

“Orci: Because we were fans, we were so aware of how we would feel if we were fans watching a couple of jerks screwing it all up.”

And that’s what I’m thinking about you guys.

406. TrekkieJan - January 23, 2010

God, the haters get tiresome. Lando, I think I hear Cloud City calling!

407. "Check the Circuit!" - January 23, 2010

Bob Orci is the coolest guy I never met. What a class act! The fact that he even shows up here to “talk” with fans is a testament to his earnest desire to keep fans interests part of the formula that seemed to work so well. He responds respectfully to the good, the bad and the ulgy posts. (I only recall him “losing it” once…and the poster absolutely deserved it.)

Glad you’re here Mr O! Thanks for reviving our beloved frachise…and for letting us stay connected to the process in a way we’ve never been able to before.

Good Luck with Star Trek 2.0!!

408. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

Im curious as to how much of the story have Bob and crew developed to this point. Bob I know you cant/wont get into specifics but do you have a basic idea as to the arch of the story yet, or is it still in the “bouncing ideas of each other phase?

409. boborci - January 23, 2010

403. Spooky – January 23, 2010
@boborci

I’ve been reading through the boards, and I just wanted to ask, for clarification purposes, the ‘harmony’ you’re talking about, do you mean harmonizing the Kirk-Spock friendship by symbolically giving Spock everything that Kirk has? I’ve noticed a few other instances of this kind of ‘harmony’ in your movie. Spock gets a dead parent because Kirk had a dead parent, Spock gets a stint at being Captain because Kirk was always the Captain, Spock gets a Villain out for personal revenge because Kirk got that in Wrath of Khan. That’s actually kinda… really clever come to think of it, though it still objectifies Uhura by turning her into a ‘thing that Kirk had that Spock gets’, which doesn’t exactly make me like the Spock/Uhura relationship… Still, the idea of harmonizing Kirk and Spock’s friendship is actually really interesting. Hell, Kirk gets Pike as a kind of mentor figure while Spock had that in The Cage. It kinda makes me wonder what other instances of ‘harmony’ there are that I’ve missed…

—-

Something like that is right, although it is not always strictly tied to Kirk and Spock merely switching off — Nero’s fixation on Spock, for example, came from the idea of his history with Nimoy Spock being in the movie. And you could look at Uhura as choosing Kirk in one continuity and Spock in another. Her choice.

410. Mel - January 23, 2010

@394. supremelurker

Do you really expect that anyone involved in making the new Star Trek movie will say that the relationship comes out of nowhere? It is their “baby”, of course they find it perfect.

And there was really a relationship between Spock and Uhura in TOS, but it was only platonic. They were good friends. The whole crew, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scot, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov were good friends, a family. There is no indication that Spock and Uhura has a romance. It is just something people interpret into what they see. Yes, Spock is nice to her, supportive, he defend her if she is in danger, and so on, but does that alone mean that they have a romance? Can’t a man be nice to a woman without having a romance with her and of course vice versa? I think that they were just good friends. Fans of S/U just interpret something into it because they WANT that there is more between them. And the makers of Star Trek do it, because they want to legitimate the relationship in the movie. Of course they don’t say that it comes out of nowhere and has no basis in TOS.

There are many Star Trek fans who share my opinion that there wasn’t any Spock/Uhura relationship in TOS and that it comes out of nowhere in the movie. But I guess they are all racist to you because they don’t share your view.

Perhaps if the times in the 60s would have been different, there would have been a Spock/Uhura relationship in TOS. But they were what they were then. Even the famous kiss between Kirk and Uhura were not done out of their free will. They were forced. They couldn’t include a romance between Uhura and any white guy and therefore they didn’t. Spock and Uhura were just friends.

And now to your nice questionnaire which will probably prove in your opinion that I am a racist:

1. I wouldn’t never feel “horrified” when I see a white man kiss a black woman, or when a white man kiss a black man. In the case of Spock I don’t like him having a girlfriend and kissing her because I prefer it if there isn’t any romance between the main characters for the reasons I have written in my older post.

2. I like Zoe Saldana. She seems like a really nice person.

3. And she is of course very feminine.

4. I prefer it if he has no girlfriend at all. Why can’t he be single?

5. I watched all Star Trek series and movies and like them, some more some less but overall they were great. And I am a fan of Star Trek since I were a child. So I consider myself a huge fan. I am not sure if I am a die-hard fan because I am not sure what exactly that means. If that means that I am a huge fan, then yes I am a die-hard fan. If that man that I can’t accept no changes at all, then no I am not a die-hard fan. I don’t care if there are some changes. If the Enterprise looks different, that Vulcan was destroyed and that overall Star Trek was modernize. I also like it that Uhura was tougher than in TOS. But some changes I don’t like including the S/U relationship. But I also didn’t like some changes in the older Star Trek movies in comparison to TOS. The new movie isn’t different in this regard. Kirk having suddenly a son is for example something I didn’t like in one of the older movies. I like some changes, some not. I think that is quite normal.

7. I watch all shows, movies and heard some interviews and still think it comes out of nowhere like I said above.

8. Kissing a beautiful woman is not something which usual “hurt” guys. It may be different if he is gay, but even then it shouldn’t be a hardship for him to kiss her.

9. He didn’t behave very Vulcan at some times in the movie. Kissing Uhura in front of others isn’t very Vulcan, choking Kirk nearly to death and showing his emotions so openly isn’t very Vulcan, too. But it was an extreme situation for him that excuse his less then perfect control. He isn’t less of a Vulcan just because he is with Uhura, but I still prefer him as a single.

10. No.

11. That again Earth was threatened is getting old. That was done in enough Star Trek movies before. And I don’t like the S/U relationship. With everything else I have no problem. It is not like anyone died for real. It is just a completely fictional movie and those dramatic elements are parts of what make the movie great in my opinion. And Kirk just rescued Earth and probably the whole Federation. It is no wonder that they gave him for this the rank of a Captain.

12. No.

13. Yes.

14. He isn’t blind and she is an intelligent and nice woman so the answer is no. But that doesn’t mean that he has to be in a relationship with her.

15. Those two are also not blind so no.

16. I don’t imagine myself kissing Spock regardless who he kiss.

From your point of you some of my answers are “wrong”, so I guess I am for you a racist now. I don’t care that you think that of me, but you should ask yourself if you aren’t very intolerant. Accusing people of racism, who don’t share your opinion and aren’t a fan of S/U, is pathetic.

411. boborci - January 23, 2010

405. Lando – January 23, 2010

And that’s what I’m thinking about you guys.

——

Don’t forget all the other wonderful jerks who helped us screw this up!

412. P Technobabble - January 23, 2010

405. Lando

You’re just lookin to start trouble, right?
…….
I thought so…….

413. P Technobabble - January 23, 2010

411. Bob O

And you guys go right on “screwing” things up! ;-)
Lando can go make his own movies……..

414. Dreamer - January 23, 2010

“To me, being in a relationship with someone does in part define a person and I am used to these two being separate people with their own strengths (although Spock clearly belongs at the side of his Jim.) I can’t get my head around why New Spock is so different in this regard. (And holy hells, yeah, wtf T’Pring? Isn’t he engaged in this universe? How did that change? That has been bothering me!)”

Your own planet blowing up would likely change you in ways you never imagined. Also, he never really loved T’Pring. In TOS, I saw an episode where he was fooling around with some blonde woman, even while he was engaged to her. And T’Pring is mostly likely dead in this AU, anyway.

415. Dreamer - January 23, 2010

Well, at least I hope she’s dead. LOL.

416. P Technobabble - January 23, 2010

I think, to some degree, it is time to let go of the Prime Universe and not just assume so much of what once was will be the case — or have an effect — in the New Universe. Otherwise, we can ask a million “why’s,” or “why-not’s.” I don’t see how anyone could just sit back, relax and enjoy the New Voyages, while constantly trying to validate what happens now with what happened before. And it really isn’t like the Prime Universe was “before.” It’s just that because of our own linear thinking, and our relationship to chronological time, that it seems like there was a “before Trek,” and and “after Trek.” I think that this sort of thinking is somewhat erroneous. Trying to understand all the implications of quantum mechanics, and so forth, is like trying to look at your face without a mirror and, in some cases, actually being able to do so. It’s all pretty bizarre.

417. TrekkieJan - January 23, 2010

@ Dreamer

There’s a high probability T’Pring is dead after Vulcan implodes, of course. And yes, Spock is obviously rocked emotionally by the death of his planet, his mother, and the decimation of the Vulcan people. But his relationship with movie Uhura predates the disaster. (It could explain the PDA on the transporter pad.)

And we do not know if Spock loved T’Pring or not. We know they were bonded telepathically, enough so she knew when he went into Pon Far. He spends some time staring at her picture. We don’t know what he’s thinking.

We know he was pretty disgusted with her after her betrayal. He is not seen to “cheat on her” (if you can call it that) unless his mind has been altered.

Yes, he macked on the blond chick in This Side of Paradise in TOS, after being infested with mind altering alien spores. Prior to the spores, blond chick says Spock was not able to love her.

But really, every episode of TOS was written (and re-written – usually in a big hurry, sometimes during production) by different authors with different ideas and there’s all kinds of contradictions in “canon.”

One mind-boggling one – In Amok Time Bones and Jim spend half the show dragging the facts of Pon Far from Spock. In Season Three, he’s all chatty about it with another blond chick he just met. Must have been hard on the actors, who invested so much in their characters.

418. Dreamer - January 23, 2010

@TrekkieJan, here are my answers for you:

-His relationship indeed predated the destruction of Vulcan, but maybe in the TOS reality, he didn’t meet Uhura at the Academy, and in the AU, he does. Everybody’s timeline was changed, after all. I think Uhura replaced the function of the blonde woman in the AU.

-I think Spock did love that blonde woman. Doesn’t he say that he was happy for the only time in his life when he was with her…or something? And when he says “I’m able to love you,” I think he’s saying that he did love her, but was too repressed to do anything about it at first. In the AU, after his planet blows up, maybe he finds out he’s able to love Uhura.

-I also really don’t get the sense that he loved T’Pring, but was instead doing it out of family obligation. I think that he was more ticked over the fact that she almost made him kill Jim than anything else.

419. Abbie - January 23, 2010

The writers were smart with the Spock & Uhura relationship because it helped make Trek appealing to non-geek women, yet it wasn’t a huge part of the film. Who knew a Trek film could be such a good date movie? The opening sequence with Papa Kirk protecting wife and baby was another example of opening up the demographics. Those non-geek women won’t be expressing their opinions online, but I think JJ and the producers will think twice before breaking up their new golden couple. Spock can still be best buds with Kirk and McCoy – they’ll only have more to tease him about aka Big Bad Stoic Vulcan is really Uhura’s little lap dog etc. Lots of potential for hilarity. And then there’s the Pon Farr aspect if they decide to go there.

420. supremelurker - January 23, 2010

@410 As expected you did completely miss the point of the quiz, which was self-examination. In fact I don’t think you even read the entire post containing the questions. But hey enjoy that privileged bubble in which you live because you certainly couldn’t handle living outside of it.

For people actually interested in self-examination, here is the follow-up to the quiz http://ankhesen-mie.livejournal.com/24071.html and a quiz for U/S supporters http://ankhesen-mie.livejournal.com/25054.html

421. TrekkieJan - January 23, 2010

@ Dreamer – Good answers!

That’s a cool way to think of it! I love the idea that Uhura in this universe may have replaced the blond chick (who I never really cared about.)

I know there’s not much time in a movie to explain such things as – was Spock bonded to T’Pring in this AU? And if he was, did he consider it similar to a human engagement, with all the trappings of fidelity? (Spock describes it as “more than an engagement, less than a marriage.” Not very informative. But we are left with a feeling that there’s no real correspondence to human marriage.) Was his bond suddenly severed when she “died” with Vulcan – adding to his distress? But then, maybe some things are best left unexplained.

And I agree, Spock was mostly upset about Jim’s “death” in Amok Time. But he has that lovely bit of dialog about “having being not so pleasing a thing as wanting.” Leaves much to be interpreted. I love that so much of TOS is open to interpretation and the clever interpretations of the fans. Thank you for a nice dialog! Sorry to spam.

422. Red Skirt - January 23, 2010

#395. Hellcat Mary, excellent well articulated points. But you have clearly highlighted my point with your carefully considered argument:

You are bringing your ideas of what years of Star Trek canon tells you the relationship between Spock and Kirk is supposed to be.

Imagine the first audiences who sat down and watched Star Trek for the first time in 1966. It would have been at least three episodes before you really found out anything about Spock and even more before the stories stopped being almost exclusively about Kirk. If Spock and Uhura had been shown to be a couple from the beginning, I doubt anyone would have had a problem with it (all things being equal) and I seriously doubt it would have jeopardized Star Trek’s chances of becoming the franchise it is today.

No one has presented a cogent argument that suggests this relationship is a problem for any other reason than it doesn’t fit with established canon.

New audiences who never saw this franchise before will have no such preconceptions and bias against Spock & Uhura. So once again I say to anyone who has already accepted the movie’s premise of an alternate reality, open your minds, leave your prejudices at the door and for god’s sake let go of the canon!

The most humorous aspect of the argument against it is that most of those who oppose it, otherwise claim to have loved the movie, suggesting they completely embraced the idea of the alternate reality reboot. But to those who attempt to argue against the relationship against empirical ideas of the dramatic storytelling, I say you need to take a good long look in the mirror. You would not be arguing against it if you didn’t know it could be any other way. The fact you can’t see past what you’ve been presented for the last 40 years only frames your arguments as those of a disillusioned canonista rather than a legitimate criticism for an impartial observer, regardless if you have any other problems with the movie. You just can’t let this one go.

This is no different than someone who doesn’t like the way the new Enterprise looks – if it affects their ability to enjoy the franchise as presented this way.

I have no such investment in Star Trek as many of you and simply had no problem with Spock & Uhura, or Kirk as a fratboy (how many fratboys did I know in college who went on to become great men?).

I would have rather seen Uhura take charge in a leadership capacity, in much the same way young Checkov did with the transporter situation. Those are issues of importance to developing a main character (particularly the only woman) in a movie targeted at new audiences (and in this case old alike), rather than whether the characters do something out of place with their established counterparts who led completely different lives in a completely different universe.

Let the baggage go and open your minds, or present better arguments. ;-)

423. Nata - January 23, 2010

@409. boborci And you could look at Uhura as choosing Kirk in one continuity and Spock in another. Her choice.
I don’t get it – how it was her choice in TOS? Platonians made her and Kirk do it and they didn’t enjoy it one bit. It was on a whim they ended up together.
So don’t see how this forced kiss with no consequences for the characters is harmonized by a serious long-term S/U relationship (if we’re to believe they dated in Academy) with huge consequences for the character of Spock? It seems rather assymetric to me, story-wise.

Interesting thought about balancing Spock vs. Kirk, by giving them same things.
What I saw was more like Kirk and Spock switching places, and having totally opposing dynamic from TOS. It’s interesting to see where this can lead, but I’m taking Spock changes rather hard.

In TOS, Spock was an alien, and Kirk was the one (and only one) to make him feel at home. And Kirk was at home, secure on the Enterprise. Spock was devoted to Kirk because Kirk was literally his only cornerstone, as Spock was alienated from anything else. It took him TOS and couple of movies to get to feel at home with humanity.
Kirk was the lead and Spock was the follower, Spock was emotionally dependent on Kirk.

In the new movie it’s Kirk who’s alienated, it’s Kirk who had difficult childhood, who had never felt at home anywhere. Even in the Academy he’s still not quite there, still an outsider – with McCoy to support him, but basically powerless.
And Spock in the new movie is smug and secure and at home in the Academy – he’s respected by everyone, he’s friends with Pike, and he even has a steady girlfriend. He’s cool, superior and he’s got the power where Kirk has none.
In the new movie it is Kirk who appears to be fascinated by Spock, to be drawn to him. As Spock gets everything he wants, and is everything he wants to be.
I can’t see how this dynamic can be brought around to the TOS one – and why Spock should be so devoted to this Kirk, so emotionally dependent on him. And maybe it should not be brought around to TOS, and would not be – would go its own way.
But Spock was never ever having it all in TOS – he had his own strength to draw upon in TOS, and his Vulcan shields, and Kirk – but that came slowly. And audience rooted for him to get it, to fit and be at home. While in the movie I can see Kirk in that position. As an alien. Weird.

424. Kat - January 23, 2010

@ Nata: Wow, good post!

“And Spock in the new movie is smug and secure and at home in the Academy – he’s respected by everyone, he’s friends with Pike, and he even has a steady girlfriend. He’s cool, superior and he’s got the power where Kirk has none.”

Exactly my thoughts.

425. patrick - January 23, 2010

it’s predictable that since Uhura’s unexpected promotion to the bridge (whe she replaced the communications-officer assigned to that postion), a continuing relationship between two senior, superior officers would now be inappropriate, correct? so i suspect the writers will evolve the pair out of that situation. besides, just like TOS-writers ditched Janice Rand after the first episodes of that series so Kirk could be free to play the field, it’ll be useful to have Spock a single-man. and Zoe’s a BABE, so it’d be good if she’s free to seduce some other aliens too! i’ll watch! lol.

so the S/U relationship evidenced in ST2009 will add a nice back-story for the characters as the film-series progresses.

and i don’t see why people comment that the S/U thing was wrong because there was no hint of their attraction in TOS. if i recall, in the Prime-timeline, Spock and Sarek never resolve their differences before Sarek’s death in “Unification”. yet at the end of ST2009, they appear to have already reconciled after the death of Amanda and destruction of their home-world, Vulcan.

it does seem to me that somehow, it might have to be explained how Spock-prime will be hidden/protected so that every power-hungry despot (or money-hungry ferenghi) doesn’t hunt the aging Vulcan down for his secrets from the future. in fact, it might make an interesting allegory to today’s post-911 world to make it some kind of VP Dick Cheney-like Starfleet-type would demand that Spock be brought forth, and tortured if need be, to force him to share any information he has that might protect the Federation from whatever grave-threat that particular film presents.

426. The Disinvited - January 23, 2010

Throw around editing Nazi epithets all you want but one has to wonder if sentences such as these:

“We really immersed ourselves because we knew this is not ours, this is something that we were being asked to take of for a while.”

“that’s is how to reconcile.”

“I hope you don’t feel I am rejecting all that it human by perusing Kolinahr,”

in this report demonstrate proper regard for the subject of “award winning writing” that it covers?

427. Ironhyde - January 23, 2010

#317 boborci –

Touche.

428. StarTrekGal - January 23, 2010

Bob,
LOTS of people like S/U–it made sense in the movie for many reasons…and LOTS of fans are having fun with fanfiction explaining their backstory. The franchise is in good hands with you.

429. Ironhyde - January 23, 2010

#360 – Great thoughts. You’re very right about the impact of the genocide in STXI… They really made it something real for us, even though it was a fictive universe.

430. HugeTrek Fan - January 23, 2010

I think there should be Klingons and how they changed. Possibly bio warfare. I also think Dr Marcus should be involved and the for shadow of kirks son. This would be Super Dope

431. Anthony Pascale - January 23, 2010

Lando

warning for flaming, your final warning

432. bbgon - January 23, 2010

# I agree with what was said above: I’d like to see how Kirk is learning to be the captain, the development of the relationship between Kirk, Spock & McCoy right after the first movie ended. We haven’t seen it in TOS, and it would be a pity to lose such an opportunity now.

# >>>I’m less than enthusiastic about Spock/Uhura. I understand and accept the reasoning behind doing it for ST.09, but I definitely do not want to see Spock become a pointy eared human.

Second that!
The original Spock made such a long way (5-year mission, Kolinahr, The Motion Picture) to accept his emotions. And the young one just – whoooops! – and falls in love? and has a relationship? It kinda diminishes the character and his inner conflict.

And Star Trek has always been about Kirk and Spock. See it as frienship, love, bromance or brother love. Did they have any girlfriends in the movies? NO. Did they sacrifice everything for each other? YES. I don’t see how Uhura fits into the concept.

# To Shatner. We NEED him in the movie. Kirk and Spock need a beautiful and happy ending to their story with sunset and so on. C’mon, it’s Star Trek, people don’t die – especially the captain! And considering Shatner’s and Nimoy’s age, you might not get another chance to do that. [Now I really want to beg. PLEASE!]

# To the interspecies kiss: mmm, guys, I think Kirk kissed a plenty of alien women in TOS =)))

433. Anatoly - January 23, 2010

Spock/Uhura relationship was the worst moment in the new movie. I was watching it with teenagers (15-17 years old ) around in the theatre and it was obvious thing- they liked the movie- the strong and dramatic beginning, young Spock and Jim in the old car, Akademy and after that. It is very interesting to watch a movie with boys and girles when they chuckle together and hold the breath in exciting moment together. It creats mood.
But when Spock and Uhura were on the screen during the scene in the turbolift they started laughing. Loudly. All of them. It was supposed, that it will be the serious moment, as I understand. And sorry although I kept silence I felt the same. It was false.
I liked new Uhura but please let her be everything- good officer, good friend and nice woman, let her to save ship, Earth, Galaxy but break up Spock/ Uhura things. Star trek is not about their romance.
Star trek about Kirk, Spock and MacCoy. And Space and New Civilizations. And friendship.
So please add more scenes with MacCoy. Thanks.

434. gingerly - January 23, 2010

#432

And Star Trek has always been about Kirk and Spock. See it as frienship, love, bromance or brother love. Did they have any girlfriends in the movies? NO. Did they sacrifice everything for each other? YES. I don’t see how Uhura fits into the concept.

*shrug* McCoy fit fine. How is Uhura any different?

435. Mel - January 23, 2010

@ 420. supremelurker

I only answered your questionnaire on this thread to show you how fast it and therefore you come to the conclusion that someone is a racist without being one. But I obviously wasted my time.

436. bbgon - January 23, 2010

#72 I don’t get how K/S is racist or sexist?

#434 Kirk was the closest person in the Universe to Spock, as said in “The Turnabout Intruder”. Now it will be Uhura? So she will sacrifice the Enterprise for Spock (not literally speaking), she will help him to find peace with his human and vulcan sides… So what will Kirk do? There can be many friends (like McCoy is), but there can only be one “closest person”.

437. Boborci - January 23, 2010

433. Anatoly

no, we intended the transporter scene to be funny. The audience already knows about Spock and Uhura, but Kirk doesn’t. The fun us in watching his reaction.

438. patrick - January 23, 2010

yeah, i always took the transporter scene as being played for humor. and i considered it particularly entertaining AND most reminiscent of the Shatner/Nimoy TOS interplay (as in the truck-i love italian scene in ST4)

439. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

First of all, I can’t express how excited I am to see NEW STAR TREK fans, and posting on here, even if I think some of you are nuts and don’t realize the consequences of what you are asking for. Welcome aboard. It’s really cool to see NEW FANS again.

371: “He was pretty much old school Spockian in all other respects, snarky, haughty, sarcastic with that very human heart, etc.”

To me, quintessential Spock is the Spock of Enemy Within, the coldly logical advisor of Captain Kirk who explains it exactly the way it is, in contrast to Dr. McCoy who is all compassion. And Kirk has to put their advisement together to make the decision.

And the Spock of Shore Leave who cleverly tricks his Captain into taking a break.

“383. boborci – January 22, 2010 I’ll say this. We’re not going to pretend it never happened.”

Hey, as someone who is less than crazy about it, Bob, I would NOT advise ignoring it either. It happened. I think all the things you guys did in ST.09 set up some really emotional and dramatic things to happen for the sequel, and I’m looking forward to seeing those things happen. I feel the same way about Kirk’s promotion, and his being used as a mop. Those sorts of things are the perfect foundation to introduce some eye popping changes that get people excited.

“ 387. devon – January 22, 2010

dmduncan…. Man, No Offense but just as Kira Nerys said to Gul Dukat in the shuttlecraft during the episode “Indiscretion” from Deep space Nine, “You really do love the sound of your own voice!?!” Let it go already, we get it : you don’t support the Spock/Uhura relationship. But guess what, alot of us do and so did the writers as evidenced by the film itself. You’ll just have to swallow this one, or stop watching…

Actually I don’t love the sound of my own voice, and I’m going to keep lobbying against it with all my heart either until it’s too late or comments stop being addressed to me about it. Feel free to bypass my comments at any time. I’m not supernatural enough to command your eyeballs where to go and what to read. You liked S/U, I don’t. I’m not trying to silence the opposite opinion. I ask the same of you.

389: “As for why S/U kisses are causing such a racket – I venture to guess it’s not because they are groundbreaking in any way, but because they affect Spock character a lot, and for many people Spock IS Star Trek. Spock is its icon, its symbol – what have you. Mess with him too much, take away too much of his Spockiness – people get upset.”

Yes. Although I would never want to be Vulcan-like, I became interested in logic because of that character, and that’s just one way that Star Trek had a deep effect on my life as a kid. It literally helped to save my ass. I caught it in reruns. I came from a hard NYC neighborhood and it gave me a reason to get off the street corners and imagine a different kind of life, so Star Trek means different things to different people, and I have a lot of gratitude towards that show, which is displaying as passion for and against certain things here and now.

For some people it’s just a movie, but for still others it meant something important during certain formative years of their lives. I’m one of those people. I mean, the relationships among Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, the balance, and loss of balance, between logic and emotion — the stuff that I’m saying isn’t something I’m just pulling out of a hat on the fly; these are things the show made me think about when I was a kid, and I don’t want to see those things lost. I mean, the shape of the Enterprise is trivial to me compared to the allegorical meanings that each of the three main characters represented and made me think about.

Although the saucer of the Enterprise and Kirk in his command chair at the center surrounded by his advisers is also too mandala-like to be coincidental. Whether all the founders intended those things or not, TOS was full of symbolism that I want to see preserved.

And not only will leaving those things the same hurt or hamper the writers’ freedom, I think they are coordinates to be used to imagine how future stories should unfold without adhering to canon.

440. SpockSiren - January 23, 2010

437. Mr. Orci

It certainly is. And Spock gave a very true-to-self reply…

441. patrick - January 23, 2010

ditto to dmduncan (439). grew up in a tough philly neighborhood in a challenging family. so the parables and archetypes presented in TOS had quite an impact on how i processed the world around me and proceeded into it. also, growing up not knowing why i felt different (turned out i was gay when there was virtually no gay-community), Spock’s inner/outer conflicts resonated for me in ways i didn’t even understand at the time.

later, when i happened into managing videostores and then owning them, i instinctively approached my authority in a TREK-way – gathering my “crew’ for briefings to get their input, then making decisions.

so i can relate to that passion regarding the re-creation of the TREK-characters.

i don’t expect the current-writers of TREK to have to be bound by that. however, as fans themselves, i expect they’re aware of that element of emotional connection to that original TOS and would be pleased to have their TREK, like Roddenberry’s, inspire generations of young-people.

442. NinjaNinjaNinjaNINJA - January 23, 2010

7. Oh, heck yes.

443. Trek Lady - January 23, 2010

I am female, and have always been a fan of science fiction – without the need for romance. If I want romance, I will go to a romance film. Please don’t assume that romance is needed to attract women to the audience. Female sci-fi fans have always been around. Just because Hollywood only recently seemed to have discovered we exist, does not mean we need to be “catered to” as some sort of exotic demographic.

I am not a supporter of the Spock/Uhura romance for several reasons – mainly because I feel it has derailed the larger character arc of Spock’s emotional growth, and thus undercuts the importance of his relationship with Jim Kirk. I proudly admit to being a first generation TOS fan who has hung in there for 40 plus years, supporting this franchise all along – even when certain members of the “powers that be” declared that TOS fans did not matter and no one cared about Kirk and co. anymore. (The success of Trek 2009 is poetic justice on some level.) So yes, it matters to me that the reboot appears to be in danger of diminishing a relationship that was essential to TOS. If you are going to “remake” the characters to that extent, why bother with a reboot of old favorites at all? Why bother with the built in fan base? Why not start totally fresh?

I also find it out-of-character for Spock to openly engage in sexual intimacy with someone in front of crew members within what is essentially a military setting (Starfleet) or to have an intimate relationship with a student. Having such a relationship with a subordinate is not “logical” and obviously causes him concern as he goes so far as to ignore her career aspirations in order to avoid the appearance of favoritism. (I also feel S/U is potentially detrimental to Uhura – and this is an example… she almost loses her post on the Enterprise despite her abilities, and who do you think would get the “blame” if it were found out she was having a relationship with an instructor”? Likely, not the Vulcan “most distinguished graduate” of Starfleet.) Yes, this is “new” Spock, and is thus somewhat different with differing experiences, but take care that you don’t “alter” his basic character so much that he is no longer “Spock” at all…

However, if you can manage to balance the S/U relationship, while staying true to the Kirk and Spock friendship, giving the other characters the attention they deserve (especially McCoy who needs some loving) and telling an engaging story with a strong plot, a dash of action-adventure, a smattering of danger, some science, some wonder and a little humor, I will sing your praises. Not too much to ask, is it?

444. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

It’s funny how people can continually find something about the new “Star Trek” movie to argue about. I also find it interesting that up until now, most of the debates revolved around the engineering, the size of the Enterprise, the music and whether or not the original timeline still exists.
The number of comments regarding Spock/Uhura were few and far between in comparison to everything else. Until this thread. Judging by the number of comments, I would say at the moment the Spock/Uhura debate is equally as strong as the other topics. But I am sure something else will arise that will push this debate aside. But it is a lot of fun reading all the comments on each side of the debate.

445. bbgon - January 23, 2010

#120 Spooky

>>>What I worry about now, is that with Spock in a relationship with Uhura, why would it be Kirk who he would have all these important experiences with?

I totally agree with you. That’s what I wanted to say, but I have a little problem expressing my thoughts))

446. I am not Herbert - January 23, 2010

@Bob: For me, the cost for that snicker was too high…

totally out of character for both of them: they are both HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL BRIDGE OFFICERS, even if they both thought that he was gonna die; openly, publicly pussy-whipped Spock is ridiculous IMHO.

447. patrick - January 23, 2010

Spock being pussy-whipped for showing some warmth to his girlfriend? not sure about that. and, as i noted, Kirk and Spock have often enjoyed a quick exchange of jibes and humor in TREK.

one thing that occurred to me in this old-trek/new-trek analysis is something that’s observed in hindsight.

prior to the return of TREK in 1979′s TMP, the series was most-fondly remembered for it’s budget-limited sets (planets especially) and FX (remarkable in their day but already dated as TREK’s popularity developed in the mid 70′s). also, the rerun of TOS that so many of us grew up on where of even poorer quality, sometimes trimmed to fit addtional commercial in, and so on.

however, once TMP and TWOK arrived, showcasing fantastic FX that finally matched the GRAND dramatic acting and themes of TREK. now, after all these years, i don’t hear too many people complaining about good optical FX in trek since we’ve all grown accustomed to that as a given. even in the 4 post-TOS TREK-series, quality optical FX have been expected.

likewise, over time, the elements JJ, Bob, etc added through their TREK, will become familiar and add to the high-standards expect by fans and critics.

448. patrick - January 23, 2010

oops, sorry ’bout the typos in that last comment. the universal-translator was malfunctioning, i believe…

449. SpockLikesCats - January 23, 2010

I am very surprised and dismayed by the number of people who dislike the Spock/Uhura relationship seen in STXI. I’m an original Star Trek fan [since 1967]; I’ve seen Spock through the years, and I don’t believe for a minute that loving Uhura is a violation of his character.

Uhura is as ideally suited to Spock as Spock’s mother, Amanda, was to Sarek, Spock’s father. Uhura is highly intelligent, articulate, and an accomplished career officer. Spock is the same. Uhura IS a feeling being. Spock is the same [as stated in the movie and in the original series--Vulcans HAVE emotions; they suppress them]. Well, except for that scene on the Transporter Pad with Uhura, but I’ll allow for that at least once, because their odds seemed impossible to Spock, so he genuinely thought he might not see Uhura again.

Spock suppresses his emotions in the movie until after the death of his mother and his entire home planet. He allows himself to feel and show emotion in two brief scenes, after incredible goading by Kirk, and before his mission with Kirk to the Narada.

This Spock is younger than his counterpart in TOS. This Spock has experienced a different career path and run into an incredibly intelligent, dedicated officer who happens to be female and who happens to find him as attractive as he finds her. UHURA needs more to DO in the next film, but I don’t want her relationship with Spock to be over. It should just be a matter-of-fact, background relationship!

I’d also like to see a llittle more of DR. McCOY.

I want the WRITERS AND PRODUCERS TO KNOW: I saw this film TEN TIMES in the CINEMA because I LOVED SEEING SPOCK BEING LOVED.
Because I loved the character development of Kirk and Spock. Because I loved the way Uhura and Spock were portrayed as equals and mutually respectful lovers.

Don’t give in to the haters. Keep up the S/U relationship; just put it in the background and give the entire ensemble a “team” problem to resolve.

450. bbgon - January 23, 2010

#154
>>>She is an emotional center for him, and they (as a couple) center the movie in reality I can relate to and understand. I do not want to watch sexless Spock always struggling with his emotions. Been there,done it, now move on

Yeah, why do we need a Vulcan Spock? Let’s make him a pointy-eared macho, it’ll be sooo sexy!

451. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

Wow cant deny that more than a few folks are interested in the S/U aspect by evidence of this particular board. I still think it would be a good to add a Kirk romance as well to the next movie.

452. Dom - January 23, 2010

222. recumbentgoat: ‘Originally Roddenberry had wanted TOS to be more of an ensemble but had to focus on the main two/three because of the times’

No. That’s revisionist bull touted around from the TNG era onwards and used by certain former supporting actors of TOS as a stick with which to beat Bill Shatner. While the support were intended to get their own stories from time to time (Scotty as lead actor of the supporting cast got Wolf in the Fold for example) Star Trek was always a star vehicle, originally for King of Kings’ Jeffrey Hunter and later William Shatner.

Indeed, it was David Gerrold who came up with the idea of an ensemble cast for TNG thinking that they could change the characters around from time to time.

225. dmduncan

Of course, if Uhura gets killed off in the next movie, Spock might shut right down! ;) Sarek loved Amanda, although their passion was kept private. No one knew about Spock and Uhura until Vulcan got splatted!

Anyway, you can always rationalise things if you you think them through. You said:

‘And look at Enemy Within in which Spock unromantically spurned Uhura’s advances.’

Maybe they’d had a row?

‘Then look at Naked Time in which even under the influence of a virus Spock couldn’t let himself succumb to Nurse Chapel’s affections.’

Well, if he was seeing Uhura at the time, maybe he controlled himself long enough to get to Uhura’s quarters! ;)

‘Then look at Plato’s Stepchildren where Uhura voluntarily confesses how safe Kirk always made her feel.’

Maybe she’d been dumped by Spock and wanted to make him jealous! Maybe she’s a dirty slapper and fancies a quickie with Jimbo. Maybe she’s lining him up for a threesome with her and Spock when they get back to the ship!

239. Holo J

‘Also money in the Federation, now I know it s a touchy subject but on the whole it used to be they didn’t have it. Maybe there was a credit system of some kind In TOS but not dollars or cash of any sort.’

In TOS, it was quite clear that there was finance and people got paid for their work. A joke in STIV – a very enjoyable scifi-comedy Trek film – got taken way out of context and become an unnecessary part of the fascist utopia of the TNG universe.

281. whatever: ‘Sorry guys but Uhura spends the better part of the movie being insubordinate and disrespectful to her commanding officer.’

What, Pike?! :0

446. I am not Herbert: ‘@Bob: For me, the cost for that snicker was too high…’

What? Did someone die because of it. Did it cause an earthquake? Did it make Krakatoa erupt? It was a bit of fun in a fun summer blockbuster movie. Star Trek is meant to be fun, not a dry religious text. So S/U is different from before. So what?

453. Trek Lady - January 23, 2010

449 and others,

Most of the folks posting here who admit to not liking the S/U relationship are not “haters” merely because they have a different opinon. If you want HATE go someplace like “White-Pride” .com or some such trashy site and read their opinions of the Spock/Uhura romance. (If you can stomach it – I can’t.) THAT is “hate.”

454. gingerly - January 23, 2010

boborci

Some other random ideas…

Quadripartite, please! Spock, Kirk, McCoy, Uhura!

I’d love, love, some epic friendship banter between Bones and Uhura over the boys.

How about they visit a planet that does not look like Hoth or California? How about something completely hostile and alien as all get out? Like a demon class planet?

Please, give us some political and emotional fallout from the destruction of Vulcan.

…Will the Klingons be quicker to form an alliance with the Federation now that their fleet’s been decimated? How do the Romulans figure in this?

Let Bones say “He’s dead, Jim.” At least once. lol

As for the controversial romance! Real people maintain friendships, their professions, *and* romantic relationships just fine, without one taking away from the other.
…Mature grown-ups, that is. And Spock and Uhura do have these qualities, in spades. Um, can we get them speaking in Vulcan or Swahili, pleeease?

LOVED the Brewery. :D The most tactile tangible looking engineering room in Trek. It looked like a working space instead of a static place with LED lights.

Tell JJ, WE LOVE THE LENS FLARES!
Just *ease up* a bit. Don’t get like Micheal Bay w/ his swirly cam ballet. Also, his shaky-cam technique is *perfection*.
He’s the only guy who can do that without making me vaguely motion sick.

Continue with the awesome balance you have of letting everyone have their moment without it seeming forced, but still being a part of the narrative. Develop those characters. TEAM TREK is awesome!

Give us more awesome moments where everybody does their jobs ~amazingly~ and shit gets done.

…And don’t laugh but, I think the Gorn done right could be really interesting.

Just no more Khan. We’ve had him in some form or another… THREE TIMES, now. Get to the awesome space adventure epic optimism (like an old school Indiana Jones kinda feel in space!) and away from ~badder, darker, etc~

Allow Chekov to get his mack on with someone or heck Sulu. Asian men get no nookie in the movies. :(

When Uhura beams down with the away team PUT SOME PANTS ON HER. I understand on the bridge. But it just ain’t practical on alien terrain.

When you get more women, for Chapel, Rand, etc… May I suggest…
Mary Lynn Rajskub for Rand? Her resemblance to Grace Lee Whitney is *uncanny* And a lot of fans want Rosamund Pike for Chapel.

#1? Hmm, I don’t know… Maybe Eva Green? Keri Russell?
Jennifer Garner?

Okay, I’ve rambled on enough.

455. Red Skirt - January 23, 2010

#444, yup ryanhuyton, it is fascinating.

And it is propelled by those fans who just keep on beating those nostalgic drums of canon. Unable to open their minds and accept change to their childhood memories. Well this ain’t 1966 anymore, what worked for kids then doesn’t necessarily work today. And have you noticed almost every argument is the same: “but that’s not how Spock was developed over the last 40 years, it’s different than what was done before, and it can’t be or it won’t be what Star Trek has been in the past”. Yup, that’s a solid argument if I ever heard one. No, nobody here is obstinately clinging to canon. ;-)

456. gingerly - January 23, 2010

452.

Most of the folks posting here who admit to not liking the S/U relationship are not “haters” merely because they have a different opinon. If you want HATE go someplace like “White-Pride” .com or some such trashy site and read their opinions of the Spock/Uhura romance. (If you can stomach it – I can’t.) THAT is “hate.”

It’s funny you would say that. I looked at a messageboard, before realizing it *was* a white pride board and one of them actually saw the romance substantiated in the series, as canon.

From what I saw, they dismiss the entirety of Trekdom for being pro-diversity. Forget Spock and Uhura, Sarek and Amanda is what threw a wrench in their works, a white woman with a Jewish-based alien.

Spock/Uhura is a haflbreed with a black chick to them, two impure people. So, they don’t care *half* as much as folks here seem to.

457. Red Skirt - January 23, 2010

437. Boborci re: 433. Anatoly
“no, we intended the transporter scene to be funny.”

You need to get your eyes checked. He wrote “turbolift”, not “transporter”. You’d have to be a real idiot to think the turbolift scene was funny (as well as to think the transporter scene was serious).

Having said that Anatoly, kids laugh at all kinds of things in movies. They could have gotten a really stupid text during that moment. Or they were laughing uncomfortably. I know that scene made me very uncomfortable, as it should have. There were a lot of unexpected and mixed emotions playing out. But to assuage your limited experience, nobody laughed in my theaters during that moment any of the times I saw it.

458. Spooky - January 23, 2010

Y’know what I just realized? Spock Prime sort of represents us. He’s happy to see his friends again after so many years without them, but he still can’t help wanting to nudge them in more towards their TOS counterparts. He basically tricks Kirk into believing that they’ll all be doomed if he doesn’t single-handedly take back the Captaincy, and when XI Spock wants to go off and help repopulate the Vulcan species, Spock Prime’s like ‘Yeah, that’s all well and good, but you belong on the Enterprise, dude! Go be bffs with Kirk right now plzthx’ (sans the netspeak, obviously).

I guess that’s why so many of us expect the characters in this movie to be headed towards their TOS counterparts. Spock Prime kinda set up that expectation for us – and he delivered! Kirk DID wind up being Captain. Spock DID go back to the enterprise to be Kirk’s first officer and best friend.

459. patrick - January 23, 2010

there so many reasons, why fans of TOS might prompt TREK2009 creators toward the series roots.

one might be simply because even the best of the TOS-motion pictures suffered gravely from one weekness or another. and with the exception of TMP, remained limited in imagination and theatrical-spectacle due to Paramount’s diminishing budgets. seeing the producers of this film being given such a substantial investment from the studio, it’s only natural old-TREK fans would enjoy seeing adventures of their old crew with a new cast.

another reason, might simply be a simply suggesting a healthy dose of caution against too seriously remixing the TOS-formula that contributed to it’s success. if i was talking to Robert Downey Jr and he mentioned he was playing Holmes in a new movie where there’s no Dr. Watson character at all, i might mention a concern that that was a risky venture. at the same time, i respect creative artists right to craft their output to their own satisfaction. i assume they didn’t become writers simply to entirely rehash other people’s work.

finally, the fact that the TREK-scribes really honor us fans by interacting with us (here) and showing they’re interested in our feedback, properly encourages us to share that with them. even if it does perturb Red Shirt’s red-hot temper (although it’s great to see that ST2009 fans are as passionate as TOS-fans). lol.

460. Charla - January 23, 2010

Wow, where’s the love for Spock and Uhura? I loved watching every minute of it- and to the woman #433 with the teenage boys who laughed while S/U are in the elevator-

I need to say- So what if your BOYS laughed. That is why they laughed, they are BOYS because they haven’t a clue to loving someone in that way. I applaude them for their innocence in that area. I enjoy watching a movie that I am not embarrassed to sit with my teens. ST09 came close with Kirk and Gaila in bed, but thankfully stopped right before anything else happened. The elevator scene was emotional and not sexual. I didn’t hear anyone laugh in the 4 times I seen it in the theater.

The teens of course are gonna want the blow ‘em up scenes and “way too wicked” action figures. That is what Transformers 2 was for.

#443 I am female too and think the romance was appropriate in the movie. I am not someone who has to watch or even wants to watch mushy romance movies, but the way the romance was placed in the ST09 movie was refreshing. Just a hint of romance, enough to get your attention. I don’t think it makes Spock “whipped” either as another poster put it.

The transporter scene was priceless- I still laugh when I see Kirk and Scotty’s reaction to Spock and Uhura’s exchange.

Pick Pick Pick – I don’t know why people can’t be happy with what they get when the movie was a great success and ensures more of ST to come?

I say and I will always say,
I don’t think anyone or any other “team” could have pulled the movie off and it have the same impact as ST09 did.

461. Nata - January 23, 2010

@450:
That’s easy – just go back 5000 years and get your macho Cave!Spock, complete with sex and emotions. :) Or make him go through pon farr…
But Emotional!Spock only works in contrast with his repressed self. It’s both fun and poignant to see him occasionally let go. Leaves us wishing for more.

But to keep him always emotional is boring.
Spock fascinates because of his inner conflict. You resolve it – and there’s not much more to tell: they lived happily ever after, the end.

@449:
About wanting to see Spock to be loved – I can relate.
I first watched TOS in the 90s, fell in love with Spock and rooted for him and Chapel for exactly this reason: I wanted him to be loved and cared for.

But, in his own words – “wishing often proves more satisfactory than having”.
I see how Uhura now could satisfy that need which I think many female viewers felt in TOS.
But I could also see that having him in a stable, conflict-free relationship would turn him into Sarek – a Vulcan Who Fits, while Spock is a Half-Vulcan Who Doesn’t Fit, But Works For It.

Give him everything he needs and wants, take his pain away, resolve his conflicts – it makes a better story if it’s not on screen, but in viewers’ hearts, which go out to him.
If there’s nothing to yearn for, if he’s the guy who’s got everything, he’ll lose his appeal.
He can get it – but it has to be earned. And taken away so it could be earned again. In ST-2009 they had to kill his mother and destroy Vulcan to get him to the same homeless place as in TOS – or he’d be so content and smug in Academy and Star Fleet, and with Uhura at his side already. They had to break him down to make him Spock, to make people relate to him as to TOS Spock.

By the way, TOS Spock was married too, for some time before TNG “Sarek”. But it was left off screen and for the novels and fics.
When we see him onscreen again, he’s again an alien on Romulus, and alone. And breaks our hearts all over again – but then he woudn’t be Spock.

So I’d be careful to wish for happily ever after with Uhura in the rest of the sequels, even in the background – as they both could fade into said background then. There need to be conflicts and complications, so that we could root for him (and them, if so inclined) again. And not just professional conflicts – Spock’s main conflict is always internal.
Otherwise, if he’s all set and happy, everyone will be rooting for Kirk. Or McCoy. :) Which is OK but I’m a Spock girl, will always be.

And could I ask – could we stop calling names like “haters”?
I don’t hate Spock/Uhura, I just like K/S more, which I came to love first in ST2009, and then in TOS, while I’m still a bit nostalgic about Spock/Chapel.
So we like different pairings, big deal – nothing new in the fandom.
And some newcomers – female or not – loved new movie for romance, and some for bromance. And the movie industry is catching up on bromance appeal to the women fast and is catering for both – see Sherlock Holmes.

But I wish for the writers just to write the best story and not try to cater for everyone’s tastes in romance – even if it would be wise to not slam shut any doors (like Roddenberry always left a door on K/S interpretation a bit open). S/U is part of the new canon and it’s there to stay – my worry is about keeping Spock searching and growing, and not always happy so we could still dream about seeing him happy. ;)
And let’s come what may, or kaiidth, as Spock would say.

462. Spooky - January 23, 2010

@460 Nata

I second this comment so very much. A lot of the appeal of Spock lies in his struggle, not just in his pointy ears and exotic features.

463. Spooky - January 23, 2010

Oops, that was meant to be 161. Typo.

464. gingerly - January 23, 2010

#461

You refer to Sarek as a conflict-free Vulcan because of his relationship and then go on to reference the TNG episode that proves that assertion false.

Relationships, don’t change people into totally new people.

They’re still the same. They just have someone who *accepts* that person.

465. Spooky - January 23, 2010

@464
Sarek wasn’t conflicted about who he was as a person and how he could relate to those around him, he was only conflicted about his relationship with his son.

466. Red Skirt - January 23, 2010

#461. Nata, what kind of relationships do you have where you are always happy? Cause I sure would like to meet me some of them boys! LOL

“In ST-2009 they had to kill his mother and destroy Vulcan to get him to the same homeless place as in TOS – or he’d be so content and smug in Academy and Star Fleet, and with Uhura at his side already. They had to break him down to make him Spock, to make people relate to him as to TOS Spock.”

And there’s your own answer – and other’s if they are paying attention. Spock has to find acceptance all over again, and more importantly face the consequences of his decisions, now that most of his race is gone. The old “what have I done with my life” introspection if you will. Yes he has Uhura, but as I pointed out relationships ain’t all candy and roses. If Spock ever figures out the opposite sex, he’ll be the first person, alien or human, to do it!

Spock has as many emotional challenges now as he did in TOS, perhaps more. This is simply a different way of exploring them. Yet all I see is narrow minded thinking on this thread that there is no other way to explore them than was developed over the last 40 years. Clearly by your own argument, Spock has been given the same yet different path to explore and I sort of think that was the whole point of the alternate universe.

The real threat is not trying something different and disturbing a successful formula, but NOT trying something different and going down the same old path that ended up dooming an otherwise successful franchise.

What utterly cracks me up is that there is so much resistance to this little point from people who otherwise think this team hung the moon. Out of one side of their mouth they say: we absolutely trust your and respect you for your passion, dedication and care to the franchise. Out of the other they say: but you are clearly too dumb to have thought through any of these issues yourselves and you are going to casually ruin the very essence of the franchise with this one pairing. LOL

467. bbgon - January 23, 2010

@461
My comment was ment to be sarcasm. *forgot my sarcasm sign*
Of course I don’t want macho!Spock))

468. patrick - January 23, 2010

i don’t think it’s the S.U/ pairing that distracts me. if they wanted to have Uhura with a partner or Spock with a girlfriend at starfleet, that would certainly be new to the movies and interesting to see protrayed.

however, i was eager to see TREK2009 move Uhura’s character somewhat into the forefront (since she’s the only female lead in the cast). and for all of TOS’s graces, it’s advancement of woman wasn’t always too well-followed through on.

and considering that in any TREKflick the supporting cast gets at BEST 10mins screen-time, it wouldn’t be my preference to preoccupy Uhura’s appearance simply to perform as Spock’s girlfriend. as if there’d be nothing better for her to do but follow him around during her brief scenes.

these screenwriters are most clever guys and obviously well-intentioned in their handling of all of this, so i expect all of this has been thoroughly vented among them. and since they receive fan-feedback (here and at conventions), i’m sure we’ve added some suggestion they’ll consider.

469. Red Skirt - January 23, 2010

#468! Right on Patrick!

That’s where I felt let down. Everything in this new movie is brand-spanking new except the role Uhura plays, which is as dated as it was in seems to us now in the 60s. Someone summed all the principle’s contributions up earlier, but Uhura’s one accomplishment, and Bob Orci has likewise pushed this luke-warm tripe as well, was to confirm something that didn’t even seem important to her at the time which Kirk happened to eavesdrop on, to keep Kirk from getting thrown off the ship, which Pike would have never done after he thought about it for a minute since he wrote the frickin’ dissertation on the Kelvin! Oh and she looks real good in a miniskirt. ;-)

All I ask is that Uhura actually be responsible for one major thing that shows a conscious effort to defend the ship and demonstrate her contributions as vital and outstanding to the core team. I mean besides looking good in a miniskirt.

I also believe there may be a chance of that in the next movie because of Zoe’s statements about wanting to be involved in the action next time, and given her clout from Avatar, Zoe will get whatever she wants from JJ & Paramount. And I also believe these guys would be bone heads to send her on an away mission in the miniskirt, and I don’t believe they are boneheads.

470. Anthony Pascale - January 23, 2010

wow this thing is going to hit 500+

one would think it was about nacelles or something important!

471. Spooky - January 23, 2010

I think it would be great of Uhura was left in charge when Kirk & Spock go on an away mission. It would be so awesome to see her sitting in the command chair. At one point in the movie, they left Checkov in charge. He’s 17! o.O

472. TrekkieJan - January 23, 2010

Loving a lot that Nata has to say!
I’m one of those who doesn’t believe there’s a whole lot of canon to cling to. As I said in an earlier post, due to inconsistent writing, etc, TOS is a mire of contradictions. Sometimes Vulcan has a moon. Sometimes it doesn’t.
The most consistent part of it , ever, was the characters – and some of those took a few pilots and episodes to work out. (e.g. Spock.)
It’s the characters we TOSer;s (hee!) love, not the canon.
Besides being inconsistent, TOS was often silly, and sometimes terribly offensive, especially towards women.
I’m glad to have a reboot that gets rid of some of that awful dross. (And we get spiffy new effects, action, and cool lensflares as a bonus! Score!) Love having Pike in it and still want a damn TV spin-off with Captain Robau, DAMMIT.
But I want my guys to ultimately be recognizable as my guys. And that includes Spock *ultimately* acting like good old conflicted Spock, almost insanely devoted to Kirk. Somehow.
I just rewatched the scene in the movie where they talk about the AU and Spock says, “Our destinies have changed.” In other words, there’s danger again and people can get killed and things aren’t guaranteed to happen exactly the way they did before. He wasn’t saying that all had different personalities. There’s no real reason why much would change in Spock’s background. We’re meeting Spock at a younger point in his life than TOS, not in the Mirror Universe. The Kelvin attack might have changed some things about Star Fleet and ship designs and attitudes about Romulans, but it shouldn’t have changed age old Vulcan culture. (Although I suppose a toilet seat from the Kelvin could have landed on T’Pring and killed her. New spin-off! Dead Like T’Pring!)
From now on, sure, Spock should be changed. He’s suffered an imaginable blow. We TOSers are curious about his arc since it’s been compressed because of the destruction of his planet and his people and his father’s acceptance of Spock and admission of his love for Amanda – the latter two of which Spock had to wait about 100 years for in the other timeline. But during the course of the movie, it’s Kirk who’s changing. Spock’s like The Man right from the start, pretty girlfriend and all.
There’s no guarantee we old timers are going to get the Spock we know and love in the next movie. We may get Uhura’s logical boyfriend instead. That’s the breaks. And in any case, I’m happy for those girls who are enjoying the romance. There’s no need for hate.

473. patrick - January 23, 2010

yes, Uhura in the captain’s chair! but i don’t think she’d have the time since she’d be either in the turbolift or transporter room or bedroom with Mr. Spock all the time! lol

and one reason this discussion might/will reach 500+, anthony, is because you’re got such a fantastic site here! thanks so much.

474. Desstruxion - January 23, 2010

474 and counting

475. boborci - January 23, 2010

457. Red Skirt – January 23, 2010
437. Boborci re: 433. Anatoly
“no, we intended the transporter scene to be funny.”

You need to get your eyes checked. He wrote “turbolift”, not “transporter”. You’d have to be a real idiot to think the turbolift scene was funny (as well as to think the transporter scene was serious).

Having said that Anatoly, kids laugh at all kinds of things in movies. They could have gotten a really stupid text during that moment. Or they were laughing uncomfortably. I know that scene made me very uncomfortable, as it should have. There were a lot of unexpected and mixed emotions playing out. But to assuage your limited experience, nobody laughed in my theaters during that moment any of the times I saw it.

—–

Oops, you’re right. I misread the broken english! My mistake. What is not my mistake, however, is that scene. I stand by it. Would not change a moment of it.

476. boborci - January 23, 2010

446. I am not Herbert – January 23, 2010
@Bob: For me, the cost for that snicker was too high…

totally out of character for both of them: they are both HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL BRIDGE OFFICERS, even if they both thought that he was gonna die; openly, publicly pussy-whipped Spock is ridiculous IMHO.

___

Who is to say that in a futuristic utopia-ish society, workplace romance is a no-no? Perhaps it’s fine and allowed. After all, NASA is already having to deal with the potential sexual health of astronauts as they ponder prolonged space flight. May not be unprofessional at all at Starfleet. That view may simply be a remnant of our puritanical society that Starfleet outgrew.

477. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

Bob do you ever get any sleep lol?

478. boborci - January 23, 2010

477. Hugh Hoyland – January 23, 2010

Ha. Easy to check in on this site when you are at computer working anyway!

479. patrick - January 23, 2010

oh, and did i add my suggestion of having Shatner appear as the “evil” Kirk from the Mirror-Universe? that is, if Shat were to appear at all?

otherwise, i’d think simply having our familiar (but aged Kirk) appear again would simply detract from future features.

finally, caution against back-to-back stories in films produced years apart. i still recall the shock of TMP suggesting that it took place only about 4-5 after the final episodes of TOS. and how strange that made things considering Spock had aged so much and that Kirk had somehow developed a mound of clay on his scalp instead of hair? lol.

then TREK3 came right after TREK4 and so on. even though the actors were growing older and older, the film-stories seem to keep suggesting the characters where much younger than the TOS-actors now playing them on the screen. consequently, i’ve always thought that, whenever possible, the movie-plots might actually have longer gaps than the length between the film-releases. that way, with our actors growing younger than their characters, it won’t be odd trying to make 40years olds look in their 20′s (and so on)

480. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

I think its pretty clear that in TOS romance was quite common on board Star Ships.

481. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

I beleve that Star Fleet had a rather open view about sex as well, healthy sexual behavior that is, not promesquity (sp).

482. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#470 Heh! This might be the next debate: Which Enterprise has the “sexiest” nacelles?

483. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

Boborci: Ha. Easy to check in on this site when you are at computer working anyway!

What kind of work are you doing Bob, inquiring minds wanna know lol

484. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

What Star Trek 09 did was bring more depth to the chacters that we love IMO, or at least they brought them to us in a new light. It is refreshing to me anyways. I wasnt bothered at all by the S/U relationship, it added more depth to them both. Perhapes its Kirks turn.

485. Anthony Pascale - January 23, 2010

Bob, regarding that scene, you wrote

Would not change a moment of it.

Can you think of other any part of Star Trek you would change a moment of?

486. patrick - January 23, 2010

bob, i agree that simple work-place, military prohibitions against romances among the crew might ease as humanity gets itself a bit more sexually-sophisticated (maybe some of those Deltans helps us get it together!).

however, especially in light of Spock’s emotionally uneven behavior, it just doesn’t seem proper for a FIRST OFFICER to be dating another bridge officer. however, if that relationship is something you guys are so devoted to exploring, it’ll be interested to watch.

although i stand by my concern that it would preoccupy the character of Uhura’s screentime.

487. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

I think some people seem to be against the idea of romance aboard the Enterprise. Spock and Uhura both seem like mature adults to me. I’m quite certain both are capable of keeping their private lives in check while on duty. This is a new timeline. I think it is important to remember that the idea of it was to create new possibilities.

“Young minds, fresh ideas”. Admiral James T. Kirk

Star Trek III: The Search For Spock

488. Boborci - January 23, 2010

485. Anthony

there are a few exchanges in our earlier drafts that ended up in the novelization that I would prefer over our rewrites. I might also look again at the Kobayashi Maru test. I agree with the idea that we couldve explore a solution where Kirk tries to “get away with it.”

489. I am not Herbert - January 23, 2010

@Bob: I really liked the IDEA of a Spock/Uhura romance, just not how it played out, so easily and publicly.

I was hoping it would be taboo, and on the down-low… ;-)

490. Anthony Pascale - January 23, 2010

Bob

RE: Kobayashi and changes
Actually I disagree. I admit the first time I saw it, it wasnt what I always had imagined. But then i saw that it was actually perfect.

Kirk acts like a cocky jerk because he has contempt for the no win situation. That fits with Kirk in both universes, only this kirk is extra-cocky. We imagine the previous two times he showed brilliance at trying to beat the scenario, only to lose, realizing he cant win. For the third try he shows that contempt to the instructors, and then in the hearing he confronts them by saying ‘isnt the test a cheat’. He basically refused to lie down and accept a no win scenario. I am also glad the part with Gaela was cut out. It keeps it mysterious how he did it, and when that is shown people feel bad for her, making him just seem like a dick for using her like that.

So, in my book, i wouldn’t change that scene at all. The way I see it, he wanted to get caught. If he truly is a ‘genius-level repeat-offender’ he is no stranger to breaking the rules, and in this case I see that he is defying them to fail him for figuring out a way to beat the test.

However, here is a line I think the movie is missing, and it is quite simple. When the Narada is battling the Jellyfish and one of the romulan yells out “Sir, I am detecting another ship”

he should say
“Sir, I am detecting another ship [pause] it is the Enterprise” (cue dramatic music)

Of course this is a steal from Star Trek First Contact when the Defiant is fighting the Borg and the Enterprise E shows up, but it would show an ‘arc’ for the ship in the movie, just like Kirk and Spock have arcs. Early on the Romulans view the Enterprise as just another crappy ship they can blow up at will. But by saying ominously ‘it is the Enterprise’ it would show that the ship has grown into something to be feared. That isn’t just another ship, it is THE ENTERPRISE (let history, including time-traveling Romulans, never forget the name)

491. patrick - January 23, 2010

ditto, mr pascale

492. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

“I might also look again at the Kobayashi Maru test. I agree with the idea that we couldve explore a solution where Kirk tries to “get away with it.””

The deleated scene of the Kobayashi Maru worked very well.

493. S. John Ross - January 23, 2010

The problems I have with the Kobayashi Maru sequence are two:

(1) It includes the single dumbest line in the movie, when Nameless Tech Functionary Guy says (I may not have the exact line): “How did that kid beat your test?” when the correct line for anyone with intelligence above that of a puddle of mud is “How did that kid HACK your test?” No sentient creature would have been dumb enough to think that Kirk had “beat” it – it was very obviously a “cheat code” hacked into it. There was no implied mystery on that point.

(2) By simply installing a cheat and sitting there taking advantage of it, Kirk Redmatter satisfies Bones Prime’s observation that Kirk cheated. If we assume only two perspectives – those of Kirk Prime and Bones Prime – it can also jibe with Kirk Prime’s claim that he “changed the conditions” … since that could simply be a flowery way of saying he mashed in a cheat code (or had someone do so for him) … but that doesn’t account for the “commendation for original thinking,” because Starfleet would have to be five hundred shades of developmentally challenged to award such a commendation for such a simple, brute-force cheat.

My conclusion, therefore, is that Kirk Prime actually did something subtler and more clever – that he actually changed the conditions of the test to turn it from unwinnable to winnable, and then beat it (which Bones Prime would still, as the moral center of Star Trek, fairly define as cheating) … while Kirk Redmatter lacked Kirk Prime’s insight and sense of subtlety, so he simply installed God Mode and sat there grinning like a douche.

494. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

The Kobayashi Maru worked perfectly as it was in the movie. Part of that was due to maintaining a certain amount of mystery as to how Kirk “beat” the test. Classic scene.

495. VeratheGun - January 23, 2010

476. But people have remained basically the same for centuries. I reject the notion that in the future we will have conquered human weakness.

People still get jealous, they still fall in love, there’s still sex (which, based on the comments by some on this thread, is apparently a horror), people still get sick and die. Not that much about human nature is going to have changed.

Workplace romance is still going to happen, and sometimes, the parties will get burned. Badly.

Look, there will be people who think Uhura got her job based on being Spock’s girlfriend. Or on the fact that she’s smokin’ hot.

As a woman, I can tell you that freaking hurts. And it doesn’t help that there may be a kernel of truth in it. Kirk only knew who she was based on the fact that he came on to her in the bar.

496. gingerly - January 23, 2010

#494

And making Kirk look less of a jackass for using Gaila. I understand why that and the “Not Gaila” scene were cut and it was a smart move.

497. gingerly - January 23, 2010

495

Kirk only knew who she was based on the fact that he came on to her in the bar.

In relation to what?… I hope you’re not implying that the reason he went to her to back-up his claims was because he knew her from a bar.

Because I pretty clearly remember Kirk overhearing her talking about the 47 ships.

And people are going to think that *regardless.*

498. I am not Herbert - January 23, 2010

493. S. John Ross: “…Kirk Prime actually did something subtler and more clever… …while Kirk Redmatter lacked Kirk Prime’s insight and sense of subtlety, so he simply installed God Mode and sat there grinning like a douche.”

I MUST AGREE.

499. Nata - January 23, 2010

@464. You refer to Sarek as a conflict-free Vulcan because of his relationship and then go on to reference the TNG episode that proves that assertion false.
Nope, didn’t say Sarek was conflict-free. He simply fit in. He was at home on Vulcan. He wasn’t an alien there, and served as a contrast to Spock, who was an alien everywhere and didn’t fit on Vulcan. Or on Earth (which nuSpock does right away).

Sarek had conflicts, sure. I think that he was very conflicted about having a human wife and took it out on Spock. Like – OK I took a human wife, but I’m still a perfect Vulcan and I’ll prove it by raising a perfectly Vulcan son. Nope, my love for a human wouldn’t diminish my Vulcan stance in any way. And when Spock wouldn’t be a perfect Vulcan – whops, all hell would break loose. But that conflict didn’t make him less secure on Vulcan.

And again, my point wasn’t about perfect happiness in relationship for Spock, it’s about belonging, feeling at home. Not being an alien.
Having a family is not all roses and puppies, it can be a tough ride, but despite all this, you *belong*. It’s your home, your place. See Sarek above.

Spock in a steady relationship would be Spock who fits and belongs, not quite an alien.

I’m not thrilled with many things about nuSpock, Uhura not the main one, but we’ll see how it plays out. And the main essence of the character was preserved, it worked, the magic was captured – thanks to the writers and Quinto. So hoping for the best.

I hope he’ll stay an alien, an outsider with fresh and logical perspective, to be a balance for Kirk’s decision-making, and for Federation’s decision making, and won’t turn into pointy-eared human, as people here aptly put it.

I’m much more bothered by his glib dismisal of Kirk’s mercy for Nero, and hope it’s not the direction he’ll be going. Spock doing away with Surak’s legacy, turning into a super-commando, that would be much harder for me to take than him finding home too early.

And as for clinging to old ways – but that’s what reboot is doing! Reboot worked because it recaptured the old magic. Managed to get Kirk and Spock and others in differerent places in life but still recognizable.

Hee, and for those here who are suprised by so many posts on Spock/Uhura: here’re female fans fo you, those who some here lamented never existed. We’ve always been around, discussing this and that, but only now came on this board en masse. :)

But really, enough about S/U – I promise to shut up about it already.

What I wish to see in the sequels is the quest to get Vulcan back. And Romulus in the prime timeline. Kinda like St-234 movies. Voyage Home – it all broke down, but the heroes found a way to save it.

I don’t like double genocide being left to stand in Star Trek ‘verse.
Call me a sap, but Star Trek is about hope for the brighter future. It is optimistic by nature. Star Trek message is that humanity can solve its issues.
When Earth existence was threatened Enterprise crew went back in time twice – in ST-4 and in First Contact, and pulled it off. (Maybe more but I stopped watching after 1st Contact).

I’d love to see a difficult, messy, but epic quest to get Vulcan and Romulus back, and maybe, maybe end with them advancing a bit on Unification front, validating Spock!Prime lifelong mission.
End on an uplifting note, because Vulcan and Romulus are still us, representing opposing cultures of our own world.

500. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#496 Yeah, when I watched that deleted scene I was so glad they didn’t include it.

501. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

Yes! I’m 500th! Splendid!

502. patrick - January 23, 2010

to Nata (499) = the Vians (TOS “The Empath”) secretly moved all the humanoids on the planet Vulcan at the last minute. SURPRISE!

503. gingerly - January 23, 2010

#499

He wasn’t an alien there, and served as a contrast to Spock, who was an alien everywhere and didn’t fit on Vulcan. Or on Earth (which nuSpock does right away).

All I will say to this is that you assume that which is not made explicitly clear, *either way* regarding nuSpock.

And though I still disagree with your concerns, relationship does not undo who a character is nor his conflicts, I agree that female fans have *always* existed. :)

504. Charla - January 23, 2010

#496 I agree that leaving the additional footage of Kirk with Gayla helped him to not come off like a jerk-

Am I 500? LOL

505. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#499 Sorry, but prime Romulus and alternate Vulcan are gone for good. I personally don’t want a reset button.

506. Charla - January 23, 2010

Not even close! :P

507. Kruge - January 23, 2010

I think some people had worked out in their head what they wanted in a star trek movie, down to the details. And have a difficult time accepting anything that conflicts with their ‘dream movie’ and rejecting it, without trying to see if the one that was released has merit…they just WANT THEIR VERSION whatever that is.

In many cases there were scenes in this film that were not what i would have done, but often i thought ‘that is an interesting take’ like with Uhura/Spock or even the Kobayashi. This notion of Kirk making it into something like public dissobediance. Didn’t Pike want him in Starfleet because he had a ‘leap before you look’ attitude that he felt was missing?

Some of these purist people need to free up their minds and stop think so narrowly about Star Trek, especially now. Or they should just hudle around their DVDs, but they are going to miss out on the future.

that’s fine. I love old trek i love new trek, there is a way to deal with both. They don’t need to ‘fit perfectly’ as if that is the definition of ‘good’…ffs look at batman movies, those dont fit at all! But who would say that Batman Begins is a bad movie because it doesnt fit with Tim Burton’s Batman?

508. VeratheGun - January 23, 2010

495. Kirk first met her in the bar. Then he recognized her while in Gaila’s room. He remembered she was an expert in alien languages based on their conversation in the bar. Which led to his interest in her finding, causing him to jump up and not hide under the bed.

Later, it led to his seeking her out in the underbelly of the Enterprise, because he had put the pieces together while unconscious. Remember he jumped up and ran to find her? Which led to her getting a job on the bridge.

If he’d never came on to her in the bar, none of this would have happened. Why did he do that? Because he thought she looked really smart? Ha!

509. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

Sorry to break your heart and dash your hopes, Charla!

MMMMMMWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

510. gingerly - January 23, 2010

508

LOLOL…. But of course, shallow first impressions only go *so* far. And Uhura’s brain took her the rest of the way.

511. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#507 Well said. While there are still a few “holdouts”, I’d say most people who initially opposed the new “Star Trek” have come around. Most people who have posted on this site rank this movie highly. It might not be the favorite, but it clearly hit a home run with a lot of people. Most of us have at least one beef, ****cough, engineering,cough*** but good/great, like the characters,CGI,action etc outweigh any bad by a large margin.

And we have passed the magic number of 500, lets try to hit 1000 or better yet, 1701.

512. patrick - January 23, 2010

during the bar-fight, it might have been outstanding for Uhura to have motioned to the bartender (or opened a communicator to say something unheard) that suggests SHE is responsible for calling in Pike and his security-guards to break up the fight.

she’s so cool the way she’s amused and polite when refusing Kirk’s drunken advances. but i’d like to think Uhura would intervene when watching a bunch of guys, starfleet cadets no less, brawling like inebriated frat-boys. and most definitely when she sees him being ganged up on and beaten?

513. gingerly - January 23, 2010

512

She *did* intervene. She told them to stop it.

…And they chose to behave stupidly, why is it her responsibility to any more than that to save them from their egos, when they clearly indicated they didn’t want to be saved, by ignoring her?

514. patrick - January 23, 2010

i suppose it’s because she’s special = she’s Uhura.

515. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

The cut Gaila scene made Kirk look bad, but the cut scene where Kirk apologizes to the wrong green girl, while hilarious, REALLY made him look bad. That scene cracks me up. And Pine does it so well.

516. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

507 I dont think theres anything wrong with having a “dream” Star Trek movie. We all have one or at least certain elements we wish were different in the newest one. I have my version of a “great” Star Trek movie in my mind, and can watch it anytime I want, and I dont charge admission either lol. Either way I like the new Star Trek movie and look forward to the next one as well.

517. Weerd1 - January 23, 2010

I think the only thing I would change (besides the Scotty in the waterworks scene…) is have the ice world be Psi 2000 instead of Delta Vega. Then of course, when the waterworks scene does happen, Scotty could make a comment about never before having taken a shower with his clothes on….

518. gingerly - January 23, 2010

514

Well, there’s your answer. That’s why she did no more. Too classy. ;)

519. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

Bob, just finished watching Transformers again. Very funny movie. Every character in that movie is great.

Wondering: Did you guys inject a little of that Roddenberryesque hope for humanity’s future that you had Optimus Prime expound on, or was that part of the original Transformers too?

520. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

519: Excuse me Gingerly? Are you saying that was meant for me?

521. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#514 If a fight occurs at a local bar today, when using your logic, do you believe that bystanders should automatically jump in even at the risk of their own safety? Not unless it was a one sided beatdown with the victim’s life at risk. Same goes for Uhura. Even though KIrk lost the fight, he still managed to get in a few blows. His life wasn’t in danger.There was no reason for Uhura to intervene. It’s the bartender’s duty to ensure that nobody starts fighting, and even if a fight breaks out, the bartender has to call the police. In the movie, Christopher Pike orders everyone except Kirk out of the bar. Even though we didn’t see it, one would assume that the bartender or a patron called someone of authority.
That someone of authority happened to Pike, who was the cadets’ superior.

522. patrick - January 23, 2010

no, at the local bar, someone opens their cell-phones and call the police? or calls an ambulance. or takes pix of the wicked fight for youtube? lol

it’s the bartender’s duty, you say? and Uhura’s duty as a human being?

anyway, everyone’s flavor of TREK is certainly cool with me. i’ve just felt that TREK had some non-violence message somewhere once.

523. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#519 Wait, did you just say every character in “Transformers” was great? Even the highly overrated and overexposed Megan Fox? And the movie was funny? LOL! Oooooookay! I ended up falling asleep half way through the movie in the theatre, which I had never done before. And I do happen to like mindless smash em up movies! Oh well, to each his own. Whatever floats your boat:-)

524. gingerly - January 23, 2010

522

I think Kirk getting his ass handed to him for something so stupid was as much an anti-violent message as you could give in that scene.

…Short of breaking his limbs or killing him.

…But then we wouldn’t have rebooted Trek.

I’m sure bystanders took holographs of the fight. They’re just so small and stealthy in the future you didn’t see it! ;)

525. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

#522 I think the idea of violence in Star Trek is to show that while humans have become “enlightened” by the 23d century, sometimes peoples primal instincts arise. People can still resort to “primitive” behavior once in awhile, but that the goal is to rise above it.

526. patrick - January 23, 2010

or to demonstrate that one man (or woman) can make a difference.

be that woman, Uhura.

lol. however, even in the Prime-Timeline “Shore Leaves” Kirk said he always wanted to “beat the tar” out of his Academy nemesis Finnegan. so although a serious cadet in the Prime-Timeline it suggests he had repressed anger that might naturally surface in the NEW-Kirk

how about Uhura walks out in disgust?

527. ryanhuyton - January 23, 2010

“I’m sure bystanders took holographs of the fight. They’re just so small and stealthy in the future you didn’t see it! ;)”

Yeah, then the holographs were uploaded onto the 23rd century’s version of “YouTube”. Once KIrk became captain, people think to themselves ” Hey, isn’t that the guy who got his ass kicked at a bar in Iowa?”.

528. Spooky - January 23, 2010

@527
OMG Lol! ‘m totally gonna have that in the back of my mind while watching the sequels. Although by the 23rd century, everyone will probably have their own embarrassing internet trail.

529. patrick - January 23, 2010

and, i guess, with 23rd century medicine available, bar fights won’t be so consequential as they are today!

doc says, take 2 genetically-enhanced aspirins and call me in the morning….

530. moauvian waoul - January 23, 2010

Bob don’t change a thing. You’ve made star trek fun and sexy again.

531. Trekkie - January 23, 2010

I don’t like the Spok/Uhura is denigrating for the character of Uhura, she is making progress by relationship with senior officer instead her own capacity, besides Spock has taken the Vulcan way of life as his own, how come he begins a “emotional” relation with another person and most of all Uhura…

that’s what i think

532. boborci - January 23, 2010

ANTHONY P

interesting. happy to hear that!

533. boborci - January 23, 2010

507. Kruge – January 23, 2010

true, but i would expect nothing less of true fans!

534. boborci - January 23, 2010

505. ryanhuyton – January 23, 2010

Agreed. To quote another Captain

“There’ll be no going back…”

Captain Ramius

535. patrick - January 23, 2010

#526 oops my typo = “Shore Leaves”. gotta admit it sounds like a funny episode though.

536. boborci - January 23, 2010

498. I am not Herbert – January 23, 2010

And S. John Ross

The intention behind what ended up n the movie is that Kirk knew the test was a chat and wanted to expose it as such instead of pretending he actually beat it.

537. boborci - January 23, 2010

correction: a cheat

538. Spooky - January 23, 2010

@533 boborci
“true, but i would expect nothing less of true fans”

I think it’s a testament to how much we do love the new movie that we’re all here. If we just flat out hated it, we’d probably just ignore it and movie on. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, but I know that the more I love a story, the more I focus on the little things that bug me and prevent me from loving it even more. Paradoxically, if I really dislike a story, I wind up trying to focus on the one or two things I do like just to make it more bearable. So us complaining is really a good sign :)

I just wanted to mention that, because I can see how it might become disheartening to constantly be hearing complaints about your work. So just know that we love your new movie, we really do… except for that one teeny thing you did wrong that ruined it completely forever :P

539. patrick - January 23, 2010

#536
although it seemed during the actual simulation that Kirk’s apple-eating victory was merely cockiness, i felt his defense at the StarFleet hearing showed his more philosophical basis for opposing (and defeating) the Spock & the Academy’s “no-win senario” test.

540. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

#539 I agree, he simply does not believe in the no win senario. Its kind of those things that can go round and round. The test itself is a no win senario, its already a forgone conclusion, no one is going to pass it who takes it. This bugs him, bad enough to go thru a lot of trouble to actually beat it (sleeping with the Orian girl ect…). Eating the apple was kind of “thumming the nose” at whomever was giving the test.

541. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

I should have said he went thru a lot of actions, not trouble for obvious reasons lol

542. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

538: “I think it’s a testament to how much we do love the new movie that we’re all here. If we just flat out hated it, we’d probably just ignore it and movie on.”

Right. I didn’t put a single word on this site before the movie, and afterward…I hate to think about how much I’ve said so far.

493: “My conclusion, therefore, is that Kirk Prime actually did something subtler and more clever – that he actually changed the conditions of the test to turn it from unwinnable to winnable, and then beat it (which Bones Prime would still, as the moral center of Star Trek, fairly define as cheating) … while Kirk Redmatter lacked Kirk Prime’s insight and sense of subtlety, so he simply installed God Mode and sat there grinning like a douche.”

The Kobyashi Maru was a cheat because it plunged cadets into circumstances that there was no escape from. Every cadet that takes the test is basically railroaded from the start. There is no way to win a scenario where the conditions are so controlled as to permit no outcome other than loss. Understand, we are not talking about the intelligence of a cadet against an AI adversary where the cadet has a chance of winning. We are talking about plunging the cadet into a situation that is LITERALLY no win. Once one is IN a no win situation, the only way OUT is to alter the parameters of that situation, i.e., enemy ships losing shields so you can strike. Problem is it’s a no win situation from the start. Once the cadets enter the simulator their fate is forced.

Now you are suggesting that what Kirk Pine did wasn’t clever enough. I am suggesting that there IS NO CLEVER way to beat a no win situation. It will literally take a brute force alteration of the parameters from NO WIN to WIN, and however you do it, it’s going to end up looking exactly like what we saw in ST.09: A blatant alteration of the parameters of what formerly was a no win situation. It’s not going to look like Kirk’s brilliant strategy won the test because no strategy CAN win it.

543. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

And I’m sure Bob and Alex thought through that and wrote it the way they did because they probably came to the same conclusions.

544. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

And lets be clear about this: The parameters of the test HAVE to be strictly controlled to assure no other outcome than loss. If you DON’T have complete control of the parameters you CAN’T assure a no win outcome. So if it is literally a no win test, then any change anywhere is literally a change in the parameters of the test, and so there is no contradiction between ST.09 and TWOK.

545. Hugh Hoyland - January 23, 2010

542. well put.

546. dmduncan - January 23, 2010

One more before bedtime.

Bob: I was flipping through The Art of Star Trek (the 1995 book by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens), pages 160 – 161. A two page spread. Beautiful art by Andrew Probert showing the Enterprise in deep space with “self lighting.”

Have a look see. If there’s an opportunity in the next movie to show the Enterprise in deep space, away from any stars to light the ship, it would sure be pretty to see the Enterprise like it is on those two pages. Very dramatic. And realistic.

547. The Disinvited - January 24, 2010

#537. boborci

Re: Kobayashi Maru

I don’t think it would be that hard for you to revisit it if that is truly your desire. It’s not as if the movie ever played out the academic institution’s resolution of the matter. They could just as easily expunge the incident from his record and allow Kirk take the test for the “third” time again.

548. Mel - January 24, 2010

@ boborci

Will Keenser be in the next movie?

I hope so because he is one of the very few aliens we have seen on the Enterprise and the Enterprise needs more aliens! He also looks in contrast to Vulcans, Romulans and Orions not like a human with pointed ears or green skin.

If you include him in the next movie, please give him a cool unexpected ability. For example he could be a good fighter despite his size.

I also love the interaction between Scotty and him. More of it would be nice, too.

549. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#490

I must agree Anthony.

The first 2 attempts are the attempts I want to see also, I am curious what his first or even second attempt entails. Here is this young brash confident cadet thinking he can pass the Academy in 3 years not 4 and can beat any test. He attempts the KM for the first time and is confused and frustrated, he fails, any normal person would accept the defeat but not our hero, not our Kirk, he tries again, this time adapting and learning from the first failure, to his surprise he fails again.

Our hero is not willing to accept failure and realizes that the test itself is a cheat and he is out to expose the @!#$ suckers that did this, how can they do this to new cadets and him, the brightest and smartest/fearless person in the world. His father was the hero of the Romulan indecent and he is not going to fail and let down his parents/father like this, he will try a third time, this time beating it and exposing the instructors for the cheats they are, who are they to think they can fail me or anyone that is capable of passing.

Well done, boborci and alex.

550. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

*incident

551. The Disinvited - January 24, 2010

Re:S/U

Odd that no one has mentioned Spock Prime’s out of cycle tete-a-tete with the Romulan Commander.

Rather than fret about Uhura’s possible effect on the yet to be established KSM trinity maybe it’s time Trek considered the opposite sex side of the equation by giving Uhura a trinity of her own for the writers to explore?

552. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#493

Starfleet would issue commendation for original thinking as nobody dared to cheat or challenge the KM before. Cadets would just bend over and take it and not think twice about it, accepting defeat instead of challenging it.

Kirk is no regular cadet, he is the messiah of Star Trek, when the chosen one fails and fails, he will come up with a solution and a solution he did, he beat the test, got commendation for it and showed he no regular grunt, he is that 0.0000007% person you do not want to confront in space as a enemy. Kirk will seduce you, get what he wants, win and get applauded for it, if you stand in his way, your shields will be lowered and be presented a gift of photon torpedos, Kirk prime did the very same thing in Wrath of Khan so the KM fits into cannon also.

553. S. John Ross - January 24, 2010

#536: “The intention behind what ended up n the movie is that Kirk knew the test was a chat and wanted to expose it as such instead of pretending he actually beat it.”

And this intention was clear in the film (“clear” in that club-the-audience-over-the-head way, but clear). Hence, my (1) about the nonsensical response line. Given that RM Kirk clearly wasn’t even _trying_ to beat (or even pretend to beat) the scenario, there’s no explanation for anyone believing he had. That the cheat was a hack was immediately obvious to anyone present, inside the simulator, outside the simulator, or within 900 light-years of Sol. The line makes no sense … _except_ as an example of one of the most egregious Trek movie cliches: making Starfleet look like total boobs so Kirk can seem groovy by comparison (kind of like those short doors they use for undertall actors).

My conclusion, it’s important to note, isn’t that this version of Kirk’s “solution” to the Kobayashi Maru is somehow wrong or disrespectful or anything (I’m hip to the alt-universal groove) … just observing that, logically, it’s very unlikely to be the same solution that Kirk Prime employed in his own academy years … that it must be one of the points on which the Kirks diverge.

554. S. John Ross - January 24, 2010

#552: “Kirk is no regular cadet, he is the messiah of Star Trek”

Indeed, and due to a very high midichlorian count :)

555. I am not Herbert - January 24, 2010

@Bob: thanks for chatting with us! much respect and appreciation!

…i don’t always see it your way, but you are COOL in my book!!

556. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#553

I would have always envisioned Kirk trying to beat the test by getting Uhura to send a message in all dialects that he is here to take away dishonorable thieves aboard the KM and take them home for punishment and offer a gift(s) to the Klingons. The Klingons are intrigued and agrees to lower their shields to accept the blood wine and earth boars/earth woman. When the Klingons lower their shields and accepts the gift(s), the gift(s) are both poison and trojans, they are nicely wrapped photon bombs that detonate uppon arrival and simultaneously transports all survivors of the KM to the Enterprises sick bay. As additional multipliers of birds of prey decloak, the Enterprise heads home to earth at max warp. As Kirk gives the command to go home, the Enterprise is surrounded by infinite amount of bird of preys and the Enterprise is destroyed and Kirk fails.

This is by all means, the no win scenario, Kirk is frustrated and he is pissed and vows to expose starfleet/instructors for the cheats they are.

Do they know? I am James Tiberius Kirk, son of George Kirk and the famous lightning storm incident.

557. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

The second attempt would be of Kirk transporting all survivors of the KM on board the Enterprise 0.1secs before he launches torpedos at the KM. The KM simulation being un winnable starts to decloak infinite amount of bird of preys again and the Enterprise is destroyed yet again. Kirk goes to the bar and gets drunk after he fails the second time and meets our beloved green girl and realizing how he can beat the test fair and square ;)

558. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#554

LOL our Kirks got mojo

559. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

As a diehard Star Trek fan loved the movie, saw it three times and the DVD never leaves my DVD layer. I am also a fan of the S/U relationship, hope they stay together. Folks who think a professional military/civilian woman cannot do a job and have a relationship at the same time do not live in the real world. Who do they think their female colleagues go home to in the evening, blow up dolls? Also it is not ooc for Spock to be with a human or to be seen kissing one. Watching his mother die and his world blow up and expect it not to effect him emotionally, a Vulcan/Human hybrid, is totally unrealistic. Methinks some of the haters have motives that reveal hidden prejudices. I can understand if the sequels have the romance in the background, that is understandable Star Trek is mainly an adventure movie not a romance one. Perhaps a scene with Uhura using Spock’s sonic shower will be a good hint or the two of them leaving his room and walking to the mess hall or the bridge…;o)
Also my only beef with the movie was the idea that Vulcan were now an endangered species, do they not have Vulcan colonies in this reboot, would there not have been millions of Vulcan who did not live on the main planet but elsewhere, they were a spacefaring species for millenia way before humans?

560. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

I too loved the film, the only problem I had was the under developed character Nero in the movie and the missing 25 years. Would have been interesting to see the Narada crash land on a planet or something after the impact of the Kelvin and it took Nero 25years to fix or wait for the Narada to self heal or something.

The towel scene, I did not like. If they are able to do transwarp beaming and fly at speeds faster than light, surely they have a special device that changes your clothes and dries you at the same time.

I would have much prefered, can I use that special technologically advanced dryer now?

561. Anatoly - January 24, 2010

re 475 boborci
didn`wish to offend anyone , sorry,
but the idea of S/U romance still is very artificial for me

Spock is very young according vulcan culture, Uhura is absolutely adult according all cultures. What will happen in several years ? to compare with human marriage it is like to marry a grandmother peer – no future .

I`m not sure women like looking much older then their boyfriends.

Even young Chekhov is better then Spock in this case.

562. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

“I don’t like the Spok/Uhura is denigrating for the character of Uhura, she is making progress by relationship with senior officer instead her own capacity, besides Spock has taken the Vulcan way of life as his own, how come he begins a “emotional” relation with another person and most of all Uhura…
that’s what i think

To 531
There is no evidence Uhura being with her superior officer helps her career , in fact Spock almost gets her killed by ignoring her abilities and assigning her to
another starship, plus yout last comment makes no sense. Sarek lives the Vulcan way of life but that did not stop him marrying Amanda, a human woman and telling his son he did it for logical reasons .e.g his position. His statement implies love is illogical, love is very logical for humans, helps keep the species going.

To others unless you live in a bubble, a lot of folks meet the S.O at their place of work including in the military. Why assume Starfleet will be confined to our 21st century way of doing things or have american puritanical attitudes to sexual matters? To send a group of beings, if most of them are single on 5 year missions and not expect fraterisation amongst them is a load of tosh.
If that is how one envisions Starfleet then the rule would be only married beings can be assigned to deep space missions, can’t see them having a stupid rule like that.

563. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

559 – Actually, Spock kissing a girl is completely out of character, unless he’s high. But that aside, the scene was mainly there as the punchline to the “Tell me your name,” gag that ran throughout the movie. It was meant to be cute. (It was, actually. Adorable. And yes, tender. But mostly cute.) I do wish people would stop the accusations of prejudice. Would Avatar be a huge hit if we geeks had a problem with this? (Okay, admittedly, they were both blue. But still.) Star Trek has always been very good at showing us what the world could be like when we’ve left prejudice behind. I accept that, in this universe, Spock and Uhura are attached, although I still don’t understand it. I trust the writers to do something awesome with it.
One more thing: while I’m hopeful that, in the future, our puritanical ways and false boundaries will also be a forgotten thing of the past, there is a reason there’s a taboo against teacher/student and commander/subordinate fraternization, due to the imbalance of power. Not so sure that qualifies as puritanical but I accept that, for this movie, the writers have decided Star Fleet officers have risen above the need for rules against such misuses of power. /overthinking this.

564. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

“Spock is very young according vulcan culture, Uhura is absolutely adult according all cultures. What will happen in several years ? to compare with human marriage it is like to marry a grandmother peer – no future .

I`m not sure women like looking much older then their boyfriends.

Even young Chekhov is better then Spock in this case.”

Well depending what the age of consent is for the Federation, at 17 Chekov maybe jailbait. As for Uhura and Spock, any Vulcan that marries a human will more likely out live them, did that stop Sarek? No, he did it twice, plus I doubt S/A were the only Vulcan/Human couple in the universe, probably just the more famous or public couple. Anyway Uhura is younger than Spock and even if she
was older so what?
If that is your objection to the relationship its a pretty weak argument. Plus older woman and younger man are nothing new not even in our world, at the moment Madonna’s S.O is a 20 something, she is over 50. A female movie director, Sam Taylor Wood is 42 years old, her S.O is 19, the star of Nowhere Boy, Aaron Johnson and she is pregnant for him. The Northern Irish Prime Minister’s wife had an affair with a 21 year old, she is 60.
These may not be common pairings but they are not unheard of, and just cos others feel uncomfortable with it its not their business is it? So if S/U are longterm and she outlives him and ages before him mega that is a problem because????

565. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

“Actually, Spock kissing a girl is completely out of character, unless he’s high”

Spock kissing a grl in public maybe ooc, but not kissing a girl (this is not TOS Spock) but considering the circumstances he was going to his death who can blame him? I’m sure Terran Amanda spent her married years denying all physical affections from her Vulcan husband cos that would be so ooc for Sarek….. sure she did. (rolls eyes)

566. gingerly - January 24, 2010

OMG, I think just realized who Cupcake is, guys!

Cupcake = Finnegan

*just blew her own mind*

You cannot convince me that’s not his real name, nope.

567. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

565 @spocksgal – I can accept that this is not TOS Spock – with certain large reservations. There’s no reason to suppose Spock’s life prior to entering Starfleet Academy differed dramatically from his TOS timeline. (Butterfly Effect notwithstanding.) Destiny has brought the crew together on the Enterprise because they are largely the same people they will be in the Prime Timeline, just younger, except that Kirk has more obstacles to overcome in this timeline/AU due to the death of his father, etc. Spock actually looks rather on top of things – until his whole planet dies, that is.
We don’t know what Sarek and Amanda’s private like was like. TOS was actually pretty good at leaving some alienness and mystery to the Vulcan people, at least while it was in good hands. Later episodes and series demystified Vulcans to a rather sad extent, except when Leonard Nimoy had a guest starring role and brought the awesome back. This is actually a big part of the reason so many of us wanted this reboot – to get back to the roots of TOS awesomeness.
In TOS, Sarek and Amanda were obviously deeply in love. It is a different situation than Spock’s because presumably full Vulcan Sarek didn’t grow up bullied by Vulcan children. (It seems probably he took some flack after marrying Amanda, though, if children echo their parents’ prejudices.. But he was an empowered adult and had some Vulcan emotional immunity.)
TOS Spock also turned down the Vulcan Science Academy for Starfleet. There’s really no real reason to think this isn’t the way it went down in either timeline. Now, once at Starfleet, yes. Butterfly Effect obviously on full power. Spock and Uhura seem to be in a love relationship. Again, we don’t know the details but I’m kind of cool with not knowing.
And again, the kiss on the transporter pad was unprofessional and a little silly – and played great dramatically and comedically. Something TOS did, plenty of times.

568. bbgon - January 24, 2010

409 @boborci

>>>And you could look at Uhura as choosing Kirk in one continuity and Spock in another. Her choice.

Umm, when did Uhura choose Kirk? I thought it was Scotty, see The Final Frontier.

—-
It’s a pity actually, that it isn’t Scotty/Uhura now. They were so good together.

569. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

568 – Unexpected canonista that I seem to be, I always want to regard everything in the Final Frontier as crack – Scotty and Uhura included. But especially Sybok. I like to think of the whole movie as a bad dream Kirk had.

570. gingerly - January 24, 2010

568

Scotty is a decent guy and all, but honestly, Uhura’s out of his league.

Also, it’s nice to see Uhura having a choice in the matter, for once.

571. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

@568 LOL as bad dream for Star Trek V, good one! – I agree that the kiss in the transporter room in front of others comes across as unprofessional but it was a very unusual occurance. How often does a Starfleet officer go into battle seeing one’s beloved mother murdered in front your eyes and most of your race are dead? Going off to meet your own death like this focuses the mind of anyone including Spock. My objection to your point was you seem to think it strange Spock kissed a woman under any circumstances.

@569 Scotty/Uhura were not a couple in that film. Uhura was under the influence of Sybok , perhaps if it was made today then they would have paired them up since having a black woman kissing a white man on screen is not the end of the world anymore. But if that makes them a couple then Spock was deep in love with Leila Kalomi, spores or no spores lol

572. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

571 @spocksgal – In TOS, yes, Spock wasn’t a playah (unless mind-altered, or on an espionage mission) as many posters including me have pointed out above. Again, this is canon (for what that’s worth. TOS Canon is a pretty sad state of affairs.) I’m to understand Roddenberry spoke of Spock having relations with women in early discussions but these plans did not develop after Nimoy really sank into the role and is thus not canon. (Again, for what that’s worth – i.e. very little.)
However – Spock was always coolest at his most distant, partly alien unreachable self and when Nimoy had some control over the character that’s what we got, and that’s what we all liked best. (Coolness trumps canon.)
I think we can safely assume Spock is not a ladies’ man in the reboot, either. If he’s with Uhura, it’s most likely a deeply serious relationship. It’s probably fanon that Vulcans mate for life but judging from what we have seen of bonding etc. it’s not unlikely.
OTOH – this is the new timeline and Spock may have forsworn more of his Vulcan-ness at this point. I wouldn’t blame him.

573. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

571 – @Spocksgal again. I’m so sorry. I think I misinterpreted your post completely. You’re talking about the actual act of kissing, aren’t you? My bad. Yes, Spock kissed people. He is physically capable is kissing. His dad too, probably.

You know, It’s funny. I remember the night the episode aired with the Kirk/Uhura kiss. Aside from the fact that the episode was seriously bad second-hand embarrassment inducing, so that I had trouble looking at the TV, the kiss meant nothing special to me. I read later that it was controversial. Just shows, you have to be taught prejudice. Let’s not teach it.

And @570 – I had that thought that Cupcake was Finnegan too. Hee!

574. bbgon - January 24, 2010

@ 571
Scotty and Uhura were definetely a couple in The Final Frontier before Sybok appeared.
I’m not saying though, that they shoud be in the nuTrek, just a random thought.

575. Mammalian Verisimilitude - January 24, 2010

> Orci: [...] We always tried to keep in touch with our inner basic fan and not try and over think it, and we got lot of amazing feedback off the Internet and off of reading fan fiction

???!

Did he really, publicly admit to reading fanfic? I thought that was an absolute no-no for a professional writer for legal reasons.

576. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

~571 ” LOL as bad dream for Star Trek V, good one! ”

I wish I could take credit for it. Someone actually suggested that here, a year or so ago. I just cling to it like a life raft.

577. Max - January 24, 2010

S/U…? Didnt like it. Seems very unnatural.

578. Nata - January 24, 2010

@534. boborci
Agreed. To quote another Captain
“There’ll be no going back…”

And to quote the original Captain: “I don’t believe in no win scenarios.”
So some are more “no win” than others then? ;)

As for Kirk’s rebellion on Kabiyashi Maru – turned out to be one of my favorite scenes in the ST-09, especially when viewed in light of TWOK.

I love how they are both right – Kirk and Spock, I mean. And how they are both wrong – as Kirk got to realize in TWOK after losing Spock, and nuSpock in ST-2009 after nuKirk pulled them through.

Even though I wouldn’t call what they got in the end “a win”. Two major civilizations were lost. Maybe a pyrric victory…

579. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

@577 what is unnatural about Spock kissing a human female, his parents probably did it a lot.

580. spocksgal - January 24, 2010

Would love to have seen the outcome of what happened when they returned to earth. That’s the problem with movies not enough time to answer all those questions that they raise. I wonder if the reboot will lead to a tv spinoff?

581. Nata - January 24, 2010

@580. spocksgal
I wonder if the reboot will lead to a tv spinoff?

I dreamed about it after first seeing the movie. Imagine seeing this new cast every week on TV – mmm, that would’ve been awesome! Or maybe a mini-series, doesn’t have to be a full season.

But now with even the next movie so far away, I see how unrealistic that dream was. And when people talk about spin-off they are not talking about the new main cast but some peripheral characters and the new ones.

But I’m curious – wouldn’t the majority wish to see the main crew in the spin-off? Why not? Why it has to be about some other people (I mean, logistics of hiring all the cast aside)?

582. Charla - January 24, 2010

Ok Ryan! wanna go for 600? I didn’t think it would get this far overnight!

Ya gotta love this site, so many ideas, thoughts out here- good discussion for the most part.

583. Hugh Hoyland - January 24, 2010

I really dont see a new series for quite some time. Not for years to be honest, after they finish making the movies. But like you Nata I would love to eventually see it go full circle and have a re-boot of TOS. Bob and his partners have extensive writting TV experiance (lost, Alias, Hercules ect). I think they would put together a fantastic TV series based on TOS.

584. Hugh Hoyland - January 24, 2010

582 Im kind of new here, but Ive been on this site as much as possible of late, I mean where else can you post with someone (and maybe others) who worked on the movie and is now working on the sequel?! lol

585. "Check the Circuit!" - January 24, 2010

PLEASE…no reset buttons in the new Trek universe. Vulcan…gone.

No one can magically go back and stop 9/11 from happening. The repercussions of such a heinous act are the reality of life and the source of growth, healing and compassion. In a fictional universe, why not have drama that reflects reality.

How do the surviving Vulcans respond to their situation? Where will they live? How do they perserve their culture? Do they align on a plan or does a schism form? Interesting stuff!

The reset button is one of the reasons Star Trek grew stale in the last few years…IMHO.

586. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

I’d love a TOS TV series with this cast. I’m afraid they’re all movie stars now though and wouldn’t do it so I don’t have my hopes up.
Another Star Trek TV series would still be great though. I have a serious thing for Captain Robau and that’s why I keep suggesting a show based on the Kelvin. *laughing* He’s so bad-ass!!! Way too fierce to really be dead! (And Boborci, you don’t need to answer this and say he is dead! I’ll cry!)

587. ebonbird - January 24, 2010

@ 573. TrekkieJan – January 24, 2010

Do you mean that by talking about racism, prejudice, and bigotry, one promotes it? Sorta like, he who smelt it, dealt it?

Because if so, I’d like to state that I don’t agree with that sentiment. I’ve been reading @ http://derailingfordummies.com and think that sometimes, discouraging people from talking about racism, prejudice, and bigotry can be a distraction from dealing with the problem. In many respects, I’ve been a dummy (as described by the site) and I find the site useful reading.

588. gingerly - January 24, 2010

582

I *really* wanted to get to know Robau’s crew on the Kelvin. That’s a show I’d watch. :)

589. Charla - January 24, 2010

Oh! Oh! BOB!

I have a question, I don’t think I have seen it here before.

Will PLEASE make the next movie LONGER? :D We love you, you are our best friend, please? :D

I mean we do have to wait an awfully awfully long time until the next one. (Hmm, need more guilt here) ;)

I know that while your busy writing with Alex, there are many of us who would send you plenty of snacks, food, drinks to keep you going. (Can you just see all the food outside their doors?)

Ok I’m letting my imagination get away from me now. But I do make some mean cookies! :D

That’s it, just wanted to toss that question out there. I am going to watch LOTR trilogy next weekend and remembering they were about 3 hrs each, it made me wish for a longer Star Trek movie.

590. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

@579. spocksgal – what is unnatural about Spock kissing a human female, his parents probably did it a lot.

You are so cute! Stop it! But really, kissing isn’t even universal among human cultures on Earth. Who’s to say what aliens do to show affection? (And no, I don’t want to speculate. *laughing.* ) We’ve seen in TOS that Amanda and Sarek touch fingers as a kiss-like gesture. (However I am with you and think Amanda probably taught Sarek to kiss at some point.)

591. TrekkieJan - January 24, 2010

@587. ebonbird – Do you mean that by talking about racism, prejudice, and bigotry, one promotes it? Sorta like, he who smelt it, dealt it?

I don’t think that’s what I said. It’s certainly not what I meant. I merely meant that we should teach our children and ourselves not to hate. To do that, you pretty much have to talk about it. It’s also nice to see a show like Star Trek, where it’s not an issue, as a thing we can all aspire to. But even Star Trek is notably quiet about gays.

592. sunspot - January 24, 2010

Now that the Star Trek universe is operating in an alternate timeline, with so many significant changes already in place (Amanda’s death, the destruction of Vulcan, Kirk’s father’s death, Kirk’s family background, the Enterprise, the crew’s first mission, etc.) I truly hope that this new Star Trek sets it’s own corse totally distinct from the original and avoids the obvious temptation to revisit characters and situations from the original series. This alternate timeline/reality should now grow and stand completely on its own so that it neither detracts from the original nor uses it as a crutch.

593. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

556: “I would have always envisioned Kirk trying to beat the test by getting Uhura to send a message in all dialects that he is here to take away dishonorable thieves aboard the KM and take them home for punishment and offer a gift(s) to the Klingons. The Klingons are intrigued and agrees to lower their shields to accept the blood wine and earth boars/earth woman. When the Klingons lower their shields and accepts the gift(s), the gift(s) are both poison and trojans, they are nicely wrapped photon bombs that detonate uppon arrival and simultaneously transports all survivors of the KM to the Enterprises sick bay.”

But how is that anymore clever than what we saw happen? Either way you have a brute force alteration of the parameters; in your scenario Kirk just forces the Klingons to communicate and do what he wants them to do so he can win — and the simulated Klingons doing what he wants is exactly what happened in ST.09.

If I was Kirk, I would have done exactly what he did: Try to beat the Kobyashi Maru as quickly as possible, concerned that extending it with dramatic flourishes might get the test halted prematurely by the test monitors.

594. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

It’s easy to imagine a cultural distaste for sex amongst Vulcans, who reproduce by artificial insemination. They are a race of emotion controlling scientists. That would totally be within character for them.

595. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#593

That is why in the 3rd attempt he did what he did. My version is to capture what a young, brash, optimistic/smart Kirk would have tried before realizing that the program is a cheat itself.

596. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

If I asked you to write a story about a cat trying to climb a tree do you just show the cat sitting ontop of the tree without explaining how it got there or do you tell a well crafted story with trials and tribulations that included some creativity and excitement, with the payoff of the cat at the top of the tree?

In the sequel, they may flashback to Kirks first and/or second attempt if it somehow tied into the story and helped build character and outline a key situation.

597. Red Skirt - January 24, 2010

#553 – can’t believe I am actually commenting on this, but this particular debate is really confusing to me.

First how did Kirk do it? Logically given Spock designed it, hacking the program must have been a difficult thing to do. So how did Kirk do it if not by using the green woman? I actually have no problem with Kirk using a woman to achieve his ends. He did it a lot in the original series, why should this be any different simply because the girl is on his side? Has this Kirk turned a page in his moral development that Prime Kirk did not? Doesn’t seem bloody likely based on Kirks other behavior in this film. By cutting the scene where he gains access to hacking the computer, I came away scratching my head about how he did it, though at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter. He did it. But I think in doing so we skipped an important part of his character, assuming this Kirk continues to manipulate people as he did in TOS. If not, no worries – I’ll just assume he’s also a computer genius capable of manipulating data on Spock’s level in addition to being “Mr. Wonderful”.

Second, the test is a character study. Lots of people keep suggesting that the test itself was a cheat and Kirk was somehow a hero for “exposing” it. Frankly, I am floored by this. Has anyone here ever taken the Myers-Briggs personality test? It is a no-win test. There are no right or wrong answers, but a test to determine the kind of personality a person has. This is a pretty elementary comparison, but let’s say a person doesn’t like the personality profile they come away with. So they go back and take the test again, but this time cheats so the results are different. Who exactly does this serve? The test taker learns nothing about themselves and the giver gains no perspective on the candidate.

I am loathe to cite canon, which does not apply in this alternate universe, but if Kirk was so adamantly against the KM test, then why does he subject new cadets to it in Star Trek II? Because it serves a purpose.

I have no real knowledge of what goes on inside the military, but I would think not only are Myers-Briggs tests regularly given, but much more intensive tests of personality and character are given, particularly those stationed inside missile silos. Any military organization that hands the keys of a Star Ship over to some kid from Iowa is going to want to know how that cadet handles situations like these. Bringing this closer to home, surely there must be situations inside a Submarine, especially, which are no win scenarios. The test then is to see what happens when there is no way to save the submarine and see how the captain responds to the conditions. It also gives keen insight as to how a captain might think under pressure, and apply their skills, when they don’t know it is a no-win situation. As things continue to go from bad to worse, does the captain give up, panic, or do they keep coming up with innovative solutions to save the sub, perhaps even things that come very close to saving the sub (and might in real life), or do they merely go by the book. These are all things that are not only important to find out, but critical to know of any potential candidate to captain a submarine.

Finally, I don’t know how you could conduct such a test in which there was any way to win. At some point a submarine will pass the point of no return. At which point the test becomes about how the captain handles that. At what point is it clear to the captain this is the case? At what point does the captain admit defeat, if ever? How does the captain acknowledge this defeat? How does the captain govern their crew under such conditions? Do they even take the test seriously? The list goes on of things a military organization can learn about the character of a person they are going to put in charge of an expensive ship and the lives of dozens of crew. The stakes on a starship are even higher … doesn’t the Enterprise have over a thousand lives on it? How is such a test a “cheat”?

As for Kirk’s solution, I agree with you, S. John Ross , I was disappointed that Kirk’s unique approach boiled down to a “hack”. It would have been much more effective for me if he had noticed some minor flaw in the test having taken the test twice, which he was able to exploit in some unexpected way (tying into his being a rebel without a cause that other less brilliant and more disciplined cadets would have missed, as well as the logically thinking half-human Spock). I think this would have upset Spock much more than Kirk merely cheating.

But then, KM was a no-win scenario for Orci & Kurtzman, having to divine the solution for an idea that was created by someone else (for an alternate universe, no less). I just get the feeling they, like Kirk, may have cheated. ;-)

598. The Disinvited - January 24, 2010

I don’t think a Scotty/Uhura pairing should be that surprising. After all, in the TV series he’s the only known person to have actually died for her.

599. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#597

Anytime a cadet beats a test that is not winnable and then somehow gets onboard the USS Enterprise while on academic suspension and saves Earth, the Enterprise, the captain/colleagues in a mission against a crazy villain from the future surely deserves the key to the flagship starship no? No test can prepare for the real world, when shit hits the fan, you cannot take the test over, it’s do or die, sink or swim. Memorizing facts and data and then putting it onto a piece of paper means nothing, it is what you do with that information and how you apply it. Creativity cannot be taught, it is inborn.

Narada from future > 47 Warbirds
USS Enterprise with young Captain Kirk and crew > Narada from future
It is safe to conclude that USS Enterprise with young Captain Kirk > 47 Warbirds!

The KM is a walk in the park compared to his first real mission, the purpose of the KM simulation test is to experience fear, fear in the face of certain death, to accept that fear etc. Kirk has those qualities, he just doesn’t like losing and I don’t mind serving/having a Captain with that quality. Kirk goes against logic, rules and odds, he says jump and everyone says how high, he is our hero in Star Trek.

600. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

600.

601. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

596: “If I asked you to write a story about a cat trying to climb a tree do you just show the cat sitting ontop of the tree without explaining how it got there or do you tell a well crafted story with trials and tribulations that included some creativity and excitement, with the payoff of the cat at the top of the tree?”

I guess it depends on how much time you have and how many other things you have to get done in the time you have.

I’m not opposed to seeing flashbacks in the sequel, but as we all know, Bob’s oats all have to be organic. : )

The KM test is a cheat in the context of the film. Pike points out to young Kirk that Starfleet is losing it’s edge, and that Kirk’s attitude is something Starfleet needed. It was that “leap without looking” that Pike admired in Kirk’s father and saw in his father’s son.

Now, it’s that same stultified thinking we find in the KM test about what creates a no win situation. The no win situation in the KM is crafted and controlled by Spock who himself represents the problem Starfleet is having, and which Kirk is part of the solution for. It’s a problem that could’ve meant the destruction of Earth if Spock had remained in command and not been manipulated out of command by Kirk.

So while Spock thought the experience of fear, which he clearly states is the purpose of the KM test, was the most important thing, it was Kirk’s new thinking and disagreement which proved otherwise.

You cannot predict what a no win situation is in a vacuum for all people, and this is something which Spock and his test do not understand, which may well be a byproduct from growing up on a world with a homogenized culture where individual differences do not seem as well pronounced as they are in humans.

By thinking in no win terms and assuming the outcome, Spock would have virtually CREATED a no win situation, which is what he did by refusing to follow the Narada and rendezvous with the rest of the fleet in the Laurentian system, whereas Kirk would have found a path to victory within parameters that were not foreseen and unpredictable according to Spock’s logical way of thinking.

Spock assumes too much about what he knows and does not know and models reality further into the future than he has a right to do, whereas Kirk is more “I don’t know everything, let’s just see what happens. We’ll figure this thing out on the fly, or die trying.”

And the KM test is a reflection of this flaw, and that’s why it’s a cheat.

According to the KM test, Kirk was not fit for command. He cheated. But according to reality, according to which Kirk measures what is and is not a valid test, then it’s Spock who fails in the very design and purpose of the test, and the one who failed the test is the greater leader over the one who does what the test expects.

So those two guys had a fundamental philosophical disagreement, and Kirk was proven right. The first stirrings of the “logic is not enough” attitude of TOS.

602. Red Skirt - January 24, 2010

#599, if you’re going to address my argument, please try to stay on point. First, forget everything you know about James T. Kirk. Second try to remember KM is not a test to be beaten.

Do you know for a fact that KM’s purpose is to experience fear? What a pointless test since it is a simulation and everyone knows they won’t actually die.

As for Kirk, my guess is Starfleet has already found out all they needed to know about him from the first two times he took the test. Flaunting his disrespect for the “official” test demonstrates a character trait that has come up numerous times over the years and fits nicely with canon (not that it matters).

But this is not about Kirk, it is about whether the test is a “cheat” or not and deserves to be exposed for what it is.

As I pointed out above, it is a perfectly valid test. So valid that even after attempting to expose it, at least in the Prime universe Kirk learns to embrace it. That too is character development for Kirk. Brash young cadet doesn’t understand everything and has some thing s to learn about himself and the universe. Further, at least in the Prime universe, Kirk’s efforts didn’t seem to change the anticipation of understanding of the new cadets who take the test. They still try to beat the no-win scenario.

Not sure where you got the need to defend Kirk from what I wrote.

Of course no test can prepare someone for the real world, but I would damn sure want to get some idea what a cadet was capable of before I handed him a position of responsibility. That’s what tests are for, whether it is of knowledge or character.

603. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

602: “Do you know for a fact that KM’s purpose is to experience fear?”

What “fact” means in reference to a movie is not the same as what it means for the real world. That’s what Spock said it was. That’s as deep as the “facts” go until they are written deeper by Bob, Alex, and Damon.

“As for Kirk, my guess is Starfleet has already found out all they needed to know about him from the first two times he took the test.”

A point which I made months ago. All that was left was for Kirk to expose the test for what it was and to give Starfleet its own little test of character.

“Of course no test can prepare someone for the real world, but I would damn sure want to get some idea what a cadet was capable of before I handed him a position of responsibility.”

Which idea they got the first two times Kirk took the test. They got more than they wanted from Kirk with some work for extra credit during the 3rd test.

It’s only by the end of the movie, when the same people whose rebuke of Kirk was interrupted by a threat to Vulcan, who are then pinning a medal to his chest and giving him the Enterprise, do I get the sense that Starfleet understands they just got schooled by this guy.

604. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

602: “What a pointless test since it is a simulation and everyone knows they won’t actually die.”

And that’s not entirely true. I experience heart pounding fear in the movies even though I know I’m in no real danger.

I also get all worked up playing Wii tennis. I haven’t smashed a racket against the floor yet, but that’s coming. I know it.

605. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

Thanks dmduncan for the great reply.

606. Charla - January 24, 2010

Grats “some thoughts” on 600!

607. Nata - January 24, 2010

@601. dmduncan
So those two guys had a fundamental philosophical disagreement, and Kirk was proven right.
Way to miss a point of TWOK, which showed that no-win scenarios are real, and that you won’t understand it until you go through one. That everyone is mortal. Kirk had to learn it a hard way.

The parallel to that in ST-2009 is the death of Kirk’s father. He was in a personally unwinnable situation, he had no escape. But he did his duty.

KM is the test of character in face of death, of unwinnable situation. That’s how it was described in both TWOk and ST-2009.
I completely agree that it’s a kind of Brigg-Myers test, to study the responses of cadets in situations simulating those Spock in TWOK or Kirk’s father in ST-2009 had to go through.

And I love the idea that Kirk really passed the test in both TOS and reboot the first two times, showing great character in duress, scoring off the charts and what not.
But the 3rd time he went beyound that and changed the rules of the game, showing williness to not accept defeat in any way possible. And got commended for that not because he proved KM test wrong, but because he displayed yet another great command quality, on top of alreaday proven in KM.

So Kirk was both right and wrong here. His own real-life KM test is still ahead – when he’ll either face death for real, or will lose something so dear that no amount of win will negate the loss.
We are all mortal and all will have to face something like this at some point of our lives. KM test is unavoidable, and what really matters as how to behave when it comes.

608. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#602
“Do you know for a fact that KM’s purpose is to experience fear? What a pointless test since it is a simulation and everyone knows they won’t actually die.”

To quote Spock who designed the test, “Cadet Kirk, you somehow managed to install and activate a sub routine in the programming code, thereby changing the conditions of the test. Not only did you violate the rules, you also failed to understand the principle lesson. Furthermore you have failed to divine the purpose of the test, the purpose is to experience fear, fear in the face of certain death, to accept that fear and maintain control of oneself and ones crew, this is a quality expected in every starfleet captain.

When you are immersed into something be it roller coaster, movie or video game, that fear is there, good players can control that fear and beat the game/simulation.

“As for Kirk, my guess is Starfleet has already found out all they needed to know about him from the first two times he took the test. Flaunting his disrespect for the “official” test demonstrates a character trait that has come up numerous times over the years and fits nicely with canon (not that it matters).”

Yes, Starfleet only had a problem when Kirk violated the ethical code of conduct, ie. he cheated, hence the hearing and the debate between Kirk and his accuser Spock.

Why would I try to forget anything or everything I know about James T Kirk? He is the greatest captain in the history of Star Trek.

Jeffrey Hunter portrayed Captain Christopher Pike, commanding officer of the USS Enterprise, in the rejected Star Trek television pilot, “The Cage”. In developing the second pilot, “Where No Man Has Gone Before”, series creator Gene Roddenberry changed the captain’s name to James T. Kirk after rejecting other options like Hannibal, Timber, Flagg, and Raintree. The name was inspired by Captain James Cook, whose journal entry “ambition leads me … farther than any other man has been before me” inspired the second pilot’s title. The character is in part based on C. S. Forester’s Horatio Hornblower hero, and NBC wanted the show to emphasize the captain’s “rugged individualism”. Jack Lord was Desilu Productions’ original choice to play Kirk, but his demand for fifty-percent ownership of the show led to him not being hired.

William Shatner tried to imbue the character with “awe and wonder” absent from “The Cage”. He also drew upon his experiences as a Shakespearean actor to invigorate the character, whose dialogue at times is laden with jargon. Not only did he take inspiration from Roddenberry’s suggestion of Hornblower, but Shatner also based Kirk on Alexander the Great – “the athlete and the intellectual of his time”, whom Shatner portrayed for an unsold television pilot two years earlier – and himself because “the fatigue factor [after weeks of daily filming] is such that you try to be as honest about yourself as possible”. A comedy veteran, Shatner suggested making the show’s characters as comfortable working in space as they would at sea, and having Kirk be a humorous “good-pal-the-captain, who in time of need would snap to and become the warrior”. Changing the character to be “a man with very human emotions” also allowed for the development of the Spock character. Shatner wrote that “Kirk was a man who marveled and greatly appreciated the endless surprises presented to him by the universe … He didn’t take things for granted and, more than anything else, respected life in every one of its weird weekly adventure forms”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_T._Kirk

“As I pointed out above, it is a perfectly valid test. So valid that even after attempting to expose it, at least in the Prime universe Kirk learns to embrace it. That too is character development for Kirk. Brash young cadet doesn’t understand everything and has some thing s to learn about himself and the universe. Further, at least in the Prime universe, Kirk’s efforts didn’t seem to change the anticipation of understanding of the new cadets who take the test. They still try to beat the no-win scenario.”

I can see both points of argument, it is a valid test, yes. The problem Kirk had with it was it was not winnable and that was against his character trait. Kirk does not believe in a no win scenario, both Kirk and Spock have valid arguments during their debate at the hearing session.

“Of course no test can prepare someone for the real world, but I would damn sure want to get some idea what a cadet was capable of before I handed him a position of responsibility. That’s what tests are for, whether it is of knowledge or character.”

Sometimes the greatest athletes or employees was never drafted/hired or given a chance, when they got that chance they delivered in pressure driven scenarios and won championships/signed million dollar deals. Sometimes the best test is to just let them play and see if they sink or swim. I call this the untestable quality, that killer instinct and desire to win when the game is on the line. That is where legends are made, that nobody became that somebody and their story gets told through generations.

609. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#606

Thanks!

610. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

607: “Way to miss a point of TWOK, which showed that no-win scenarios are real, and that you won’t understand it until you go through one. That everyone is mortal. Kirk had to learn it a hard way.”

Oh no, Nata. There isn’t A point, there are MANY points depending on which context you are looking at. I’m looking at the one in ST.09. That doesn’t mean I forgot or am ignorant of his inability to cheat death in TWOK, although I’d like to point out that in TSFS he didn’t seem to be taking his real world KM test from TWOK lying down either! So in his second real world KM, Kirk won again, thus besting his youthful record of 3 tests for a win by one less attempt needed! : )

Anything Starfleet was looking for in Kirk’s test, and anything they wanted Kirk to see about himself, they all got the first time he took it, the way every other cadet did. The rest was Kirk testing the institution. As McCoy pointed out, “Nobody goes back for seconds, let alone thirds.” Except Kirk. And why? Surely not because he didn’t know what his own reaction to being railroaded would be. He already discovered that during test # 1.

So again, the rest was him testing the institution.

611. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

And need I point out that NOBODY faces a real world KM test until a real world moment? The KM test is a simulation that familiarizes you with your own reactions, but no simulation can replace a real world encounter with death — it can only give you a simulated experience, like sitting in the movies and being scared of some monster on the screen — and no one CAN have such a real moment until they are really facing it, and therefore Kirk got what he was supposed to out of the KM test as well as any test can give you a simulated experience, like every other cadet who took it. And therefore again, the rest was him testing the institution.

612. ryanhuyton - January 24, 2010

Somethoughts, congratulations for hitting the 600 comments barrier. On this site, anyone can be FIRST, but hitting 500 like I did or 600 like you did
is rare. It might have only happened 2 or 3 times before. No one can understand the feeling of “accomplishment” until they hit the high numbers. We’re part of a small club,LOL!

613. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

I mean, that’s what’s funny about TSFS: Kirk again hearkens back to his days of youthful revolt and breaks every rule in the book to cheat death yet again and GET SPOCK BACK!!! Now THAT’S priceless. He didn’t go staring at some blue sunset through a bottle of Romulan Ale, he cheated death again. Hahaha. Pine Kirk IS Kirk. Priceless.

614. Weerd1 - January 24, 2010

There seems to be an awful lot of supposition about how Prime Kirk beat the KM, particularly when all we know is:
“I reprogrammed the simulation to make it possible to rescue the ship…”
and
“I got a commendation for original thinking.”

Point one is completely in line with what we see in the new timeline. Point two MIGHT have occurred following the hearing which now never gets a chance to happen.

I would point out that in the book “Kobayashi Maru,” which I have seen our dear Mr. Orci reference in interviews, Kirk is cocky enough to have the Klingon commander in the simulation accept a hail and cower in fear realizing he is dealing with “THE Captain Kirk.” (Been a few years since I read it though, so perhaps I am misremembering.)

This Spock is, and should be, more like the Spock we see in both “The Cage” and “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” each of which bracket the timeframe of this movie. He smiles, he gets excited, and he’s perfectly willing to take life when he deems it logical. Hell, he even tries to get Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell while he’s laying passed out in bed! I have no issue with that Spock trying on a human relationship as he still tries to find what path he is going to choose. Remember also- the logical Spock we see in the majority of TOS is not resolved either! Indeed, he is so confused by how service on the Enterprise makes him feel, he leaves Starfleet to pursue Kolinahr, and can’t achieve it! Across the universe his mind is touched by the similarly confused V’Ger, who is supposed to think like a machine, but wonders, “Is this all that I am?” We don’t see a Spock comfortable with himself and his role until Star Trek VI, when he gives his logic speech to Valeris- and it certainly isn’t all-Vulcan.

Let me also point out what people have said here- Spock on TOS doesn’t kiss girls or beat up Kirk unless he is under the influence of something else. True, but those things (Naked Time, This Side of Paradise, All Our Yesterdays) don’t GIVE him those emotions, they only REMOVE his control, meaning every one of those feelings are roiling about under his Vulcan veneer. As Spock Prime tells NewKirk in this film, “Jim, I just lost my planet. I AM emotionally compromised.”

As far as Kirk and Spock go, I don’t think Mr. Orci and company changed a thing- they just shifted the context for who these characters are. The essentials are still quite present.

Scotty we could possibly argue about…

615. ryanhuyton - January 24, 2010

The Kobayashi Maru scene was “classic” Trek at its finest. Kirk’s cockiness. McCoy’s sarcasm. Spock’s reaction to Kirk “beating” the test.
Not knowing how he did it made it better.

616. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

Kirk beats Spock’s KM test at the academy and is rebuked for it by Spock himself. And later (TSFS), Spock’s life is SAVED by the very attitude he criticized in his youth. I love it! I like seeing how the new movie actually fits in so well with the older characters played by different actors.

Alternate universe whatever, Bob and Alex have indeed protected the souls of these characters well.

617. ryanhuyton - January 24, 2010

#616 Yup, that’s why the future of “Star Trek” could not be in better hands.
J.J Abrams Bob Orci and co. truly understand the characters.

618. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

I know TSFS is technically not the best Star Trek movie, but it did have some of the best moments ever. Kirk destroying the Enterprise, pulling out all the stops to rescue his friend, even enduring the death of his son. But never has Kirk’s tenacity been so well portrayed as in that film. As much as TWOK was Kirk trying to shake the rust out of his joints and suffering because he was not what he once was, TSFS was Kirk back in top form. And that moment at the end where Spock looks at McCoy, and McCoy just smiles and points to his head? Priceless.

619. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#612

LOL ryanhuyton, go us!

620. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

@617: Totally.

621. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#616 and #617

I agree, so hungry for part 2 and 3 and tv series…

622. ryanhuyton - January 24, 2010

#618 “The Search For Spock” is an underrated movie in my opinion. Not as good as “The Wrath of Khan”, “First Contact”, or “Star Trek”, but certainly up their with “The Undiscovered Country” and “The Voyage Home”.

Kirk realized the defeat of Khan came as an empty victory, since Spock had to sacrifice his life for the Enterprise. The value of Spock as a friend to Kirk was never made clearer than in this movie. Kirk ends up stealing the Enterprise, defying Starfleet orders, witnessing his son David’s murder, destroying the Enterprise and defeating Kruge and his gang. Captain KIrk sacrificed a lot to resurrect his friend. The closeness of their friendship was established on “The Original Series” and the first two films but TSFS cemented it for good. Also, a lot of elements were introduced that would influence the subsequent films and shows. Such as how one deals with death. Giving an alien culture more depth and background. And of course the ships. The Klingon Bird of Prey. The Excelsior. The Grissom. Spacedock. All of those would end up being seen more than once on various episodes and movies.

While “The Motion Picture” resurrected the franchise, and “The Wrath of Khan” setting the bar for sequels, it is “The Search For Spock” which arguably had the greatest influence on the future of the films and shows.

When Bob Orci writes the sequel, he might be wise to not just focus on TWOK or TOS, but also TSPS.

623. Red Skirt - January 24, 2010

I hate to break up the mutual admiration fanboy club, but …

#608 somethoughts Re: #602

“the purpose is to experience fear, fear in the face of certain death, to accept that fear and maintain control of oneself and ones crew.”

I stand by my point.

This is just bad writing and based on the dialogue and Bob Orci’s expanded explanation, I feel Bob failed to divine the purpose of the test. However, he redeems himself a bit by having Spock expand on what is expected from the reaction of “fear”, leading me to believe it is just muddy writing and he didn’t completely miss the point.

The KM test is NOT a “cheat” and Starfleet does not need to be shown-up for conducting it. Period. It matters not from what perspective it is analyzed.

As for how anyone reacts to movies and video games, I guarantee it is nothing like the way a person reacts in the actual situation. Not only do the cadets know it is a simulation, no attempt at realism is made by concealing the observation of the test. Why the hell would they have a window in the control room that looks into the scenario reminding everyone “this is only a test”. They didn’t even do that the first time. Dumb. Given the actual circumstances of the test that we are presented with onscreen, I have to conclude the point of the test is to see how well a cadet applies what they have learned in a situation that presents every failure scenario possible until ultimately the ship is destroyed. Folks they do this in NASA shuttle simulations, throwing the worst at the astronauts, sometimes even unrecoverable simulations. Why do it if it doesn’t prove anything?

I would have thought by the 23rd Century such tests could be more effectively so that the cadet may not even be aware it is a test. Perhaps some kind of virtual simulation? No this test as depicted wasn’t designed to put a cadet in any kind of real fear, but rather stress at having to make snap decisions, worrying if they are right or wrong and ultimately how well they handle that stress as the demands of the problem solving continues to escalate. Heck they even have tests today in which people are in a flooding vessel where there exists a real possibility they could drown if they fail to keep their wits about them and follow their survival training. There are even exercises in the military with live ammo being fired. That folks is real life threatening danger in a test. Spare me the movies and video games comparison.

In the end it doesn’t really matter. KM is behind us and there was never any resolution, so we’ll never know. Perhaps in this alternate universe, Kirk did not get the commendation, or perhaps Starfleet was so embarrassed they scrapped the KM test and just started putting the most undisciplined cowboys at the academy in charge of their best ships to see if they would live or die and take thousands of crew members with them. We’ll probably never know for sure.

624. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

623: “The KM test is NOT a “cheat” and Starfleet does not need to be shown-up for conducting it. Period. It matters not from what perspective it is analyzed.”

Yes it is. From Kirk’s perspective, a valid perspective, it is. It’s stale thinking from people who are pressing out cadets from a mold.

“As for how anyone reacts to movies and video games, I guarantee it is nothing like the way a person reacts in the actual situation.”

I think you are confusing the difference between simulation and reality here. When I am scared in a movie or feel excitement in a computer game, those feelings are not IDENTICAL to what I’d have in real counterpart situations, hence the reason for saying the things we experience in simulations are LIKE what we’d experience in real life.

We say they are LIKE each other BECAUSE they are NOT IDENTICAL to each other.

Simulations cannot tell us our precise reactions because they are simulations. What they can do is acquaint you with the kinds of self awareness that can modify your behavior when you encounter those situations that resemble the simulated conditions before you encounter them so that you have a trained response to something similar.

“There are even exercises in the military with live ammo being fired. That folks is real life threatening danger in a test. ”

Outstanding, Red Skirt. They are called “live fire exercises.” Point out to me something every MCRD graduate already knows from experience, why don’t you?

Unfortunately, having bullets fly over your head while you are crawling through mud is STILL a simulation because nobody is really trying to kill you, and you know that, so NOTHING replaces a real live person with a gun who wants to blow your head off. Nothing. And it is generally frowned upon to genuinely try killing the trainees. Somebody upstairs could get in trouble for those sorts of things. But simulations are valuable anyway, provided you don’t have a huge brain fart and get yourself killed, which has been known to happen on occasion.

625. Anthony Pascale - January 24, 2010

Just to be clear, I am not saying that Kirk is a ‘hero’ for ‘exposing’ the KM test. I am just pointing out that Kirk in any universe doesn’t believe in the no win situation. He refused to play their game of testing his character, he wanted to beat the test. That could be seen as heroic or possibly a psychological flaw that he cannot accept reality. Regardless, it is part of his personality in any universe.

As for the ‘hack’…i have always seen ‘changing the conditions of the test’ to mean that he changed the test, therefore ‘hacking’ the test in our modern parlance (or ‘cheating’), but that is all semantics. The notion of finding an exploit would actually mean he ‘beat’ the test WITHIN the conditions of the test, with no changes to the test. And that is not canon, that is ‘fanon’.

But I feel that this is all really not to the point of the new film. What they did with KM in the film, was tie it into the relationship of Kirk and Spock. Star Trek 2009 was a love story, not unlike the African Queen. We have two people who meet in conflict and eventually find a way to love and admire eachother…Kirk and Spock. They turned a famous part of Kirk’s past (the KM test), into the moment when Kirk and Spock met, and the beginning of their conflict. Both a conflict in action of Kirk defying the test and of philosophy of Spock’s belief that the test is one of character and Kirk’s belief that it was a ‘cheat’.

The screenwriters are not saying who is right, in fact they are really saying both are right. They discussed this at the panel but I didnt put it into the excerpts, but Orci and Kurtzman noted that one of the challenges for them was that they put Kirk and Spock into conflict, but wanted to be sure that the audience could relate to both.

This debate is an indication of that. We have two opposing philosophies (KM=cheat vs KM=character test). The inclusion of the KM in the film was NOT the ‘end’, as in serving the fans by finally showing Kirk’s famous beating of the test, it was a means to an end. That end was kicking off the conflict and showing the two clear philosophies of Kirk and Spock. Eventually we will see these two find a way to respect each others views and work together. That is paid off by the end of the film, when Spock asks to be Kirk’s first officer and Kirk says he would be honored.

626. P Technobabble - January 24, 2010

I think the K M test is one more of those “Trek-isms” that is completely open to interpretation, and who is to say which interpretation is the “right” one… or maybe they are all “right,” to some degree.

In TWOK, we have a dying Spock telling Kirk, “I never took the K M test. What do you think of my solution?”
In Trek09, we have someone asking Spock, “How did he (Kirk) beat your test?” If Spock designed the K M test, would he have needed to take the test? Would he have already known the solution? Or is there something that would randomize the test to such a degree that, as Kirk told Saavik in TWOK, “There is no correct solution. It’s a test of character.” And does that mean that Spock already knew enough about his own character to conclude that he need not take the test? Or is the alternate universe so completely different from the one where we know Spock never took the test?

There are many ways to look at this, I think, not just one. Does everyone reading these posts interpret each post in exactly the same way? Obviously, NOT! It does not invalidate each person’s interpretation. How many ways, do you think, are there to interpret what the K M test is all about, and what it meant to Kirk… apart from the fact that he didn’t believe in the “no-win scenario,” and believed the test, itself, was a cheat?

627. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

622: “When Bob Orci writes the sequel, he might be wise to not just focus on TWOK or TOS, but also TSPS.”

I totally agree with that. (Only Bob, if you guys are ever going to show an ancient wrinkled up Vulcan high priestess, don’t put hot red glossy lipstick on her. That’s just wrong, man.)

But TSFS had some of the best Trek material in it ever.

Kirk was a total rogue, and I’m still blown away at the sight of the Enterprise — THE ENTERPRISE — flaming through the atmosphere, while Kirk expresses his sense of loss, and McCoy tells him it was the right thing to do.

628. P Technobabble - January 24, 2010

625. Anthony

Yes, exactly, re: Kirk! He doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario, in both universes. I wonder, however, what the situation is with Spock. In TWOK, we only know that Spock never took the test, but we never had any indication that he designed the test. Could we make the stretch and say that Spock designed the test in the other universe, as well as in the alternate universe? I’m not sure about this….

629. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

626: “There are many ways to look at this, I think, not just one. Does everyone reading these posts interpret each post in exactly the same way? Obviously, NOT! It does not invalidate each person’s interpretation.”

I agree with that, but what I’m seeing is that some people have difficulty seeing it from Kirk’s perspective at all. They just want him to be flat out absolutely WRONG, no ifs, ands, or buts, and throw that prankster in the brig now please.

I don’t think it’s that simple. I think Kirk has a valid philosophical difference that made him test the institution itself, and sure, you could view that as a flaw in his character, but the guy became the best Captain ever, so maybe he has something to teach the teachers.

But it’s fun to see Kirk’s solution polarize fans into those who think he should be spanked with the flat side of a Denebian Slime Devil, and those who think he gave Starfleet the wakeup call it needed.

You might even say this forum is acting as a simulation for us to experience what our own reactions would be to someone in reality who did the same thing around us! And it’s fun to watch the results.

630. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

Hey Anthony, are you going to give comment-number milestone awards?

Like, #700 gets a plaque presented by Bob Orci, along with an offer to collaborate with the Supreme Court on the next Star Trek film?

631. P Technobabble - January 24, 2010

629. dm

“..They just want him to be flat out absolutely WRONG, no ifs, ands, or buts, and throw that prankster in the brig now please…”

Well, tough cookies for them, huh? We all know that Kirk wasn’t thrown in the brig, and (according to TWOK canon) he was commendated for “original thinking.” Perhaps we of the 21st century — still fundamentally the same as 20th century humans — have such a limited way of looking at things, we find it hard to comprehend what those 23rd century people will be thinking, from a completely different orientation towards how and what we think… Who knows? I’m open to it….

632. Wyatt Cain - January 24, 2010

Having Uhura and Spock choose to be with each other because of a mutual respect and attraction does not degrade or trivialize either character. It’s painfully ridiculous to carry on with that opinion. The anti S/U people on here are just a drop in the vast ocean of S/U supporters. Long Live Spock/Uhura!

633. Red Skirt - January 24, 2010

#626, you speak of character perspectives. I frankly don’t care what Kirk thought. I care what Starfleet thought and what is reasonable from the audiences’ perspective. I run red lights all the time because I think they are wrong to be there when no other traffic is present. But I haven’t met a cop yet who has agreed with me.

What Bob Orci said in #536 is this: “The intention behind what ended up in the movie is that Kirk knew the test was a chat and wanted to expose it as such instead of pretending he actually beat it.”

That suggested to me he was universally characterizing the test. I see now that his statement could mean that ONLY Kirk thought it was a cheat.

Either way, everything I wrote concerning the Prime Universe Kirk remains true – Kirk eventually learned that it was NOT a cheat (if indeed he ever saw it that way) , otherwise he would not have condoned it, much less participated in giving it in Star Trek II. What Kirk learns in this universe is anybody’s guess. But some people can only see it one way. Just like Uhura can’t date Spock because doing so will destroy his character.

The test as presented in the movie has value to an institution such as Starfleet. What an institution does with those tests is another matter. SImply because Kirk thought it was a cheat does not make it so.

634. syfy mango - January 24, 2010

SPOCK / UHURA are a great idea!! I mean really this in not the 1960′s… no need to make poor Uhura sit there beautiful, intelligent, yet totally sexless. Spock on the other hand had a fully Vulcan father who fell in love with a human woman. Spock is only half Vulcan, surly he call fall for a human too. I was a fan of TOS and I loved Spock, the new romance with Uhura makes him more of a paradox, there is so much more depth to him, it is refreshing. If they decided to get rid of the S/U romance it would just seem like they are going backwards to appease a bunch of whiny canon fanatics. ITS NOT THE SAME AS TOS, get over it!

635. S. John Ross - January 24, 2010

#597: “I’ll just assume he’s also a computer genius capable of manipulating data on Spock’s level in addition to being “Mr. Wonderful”.”

Given that this version of Kirk is a messiah, blessed with the midichlorian-rich blood of the True Kirk Bloodline and gifted with magical powers by the gods or fate (or, as Orci once suggested, a kind of “will” of the timestream), he can simply do anything without being challenged by it, so naturally he can do that and everything else (on the other hand, since he’s a tool [of fate], it also means he can never actually achieve anything or deserve credit for anything). It’s what happens when you reimagine a character as a mythic demigod rather than a more genuine, human hero making choices and sacrifices the audience can honestly relate to.

“Second, the test is a character study. Lots of people keep suggesting that the test itself was a cheat and Kirk was somehow a hero for “exposing” it. Frankly, I am floored by this.”

It’s yet another example of the same cliche: making Starfleet look incompetent because it’s easier to do _that_ than to actually do the work of writing real challenges and solutions for Jim Kirk. It’s easy writing to cast Starfleet as a band of sorry lunkheads in desperate need of Magic Kirkness … something ST09 sets to almost immediately with Pike’s laments in the bar scene, and which it returns to repeatedly whenever it needs to create the illusion that Kirk has greatness in him. Instead of being a test of character, the Kobayashi Maru becomes some kind of dishonest prank being perpetuated on the cadets, and Kirk the Messiah exposes it (exposes it in front of a tech so dim he thinks the test was “beaten” no less).

This cheap out is (sadly) nothing new … we’ve seen it in several other Trek films. But when choosing which cliches to celebrate and honor, and which ones to discard as damaging, I think O&K may have not only tossed the baby out, I think they made a point of keeping some of the bathwater.

“But then, KM was a no-win scenario for Orci & Kurtzman, having to divine the solution for an idea that was created by someone else (for an alternate universe, no less). I just get the feeling they, like Kirk, may have cheated. ;-)”

In fact, I think they literally changed the conditions of the test ;)

636. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

Good students do what is told and follow the rules.

Great students challenge ideas and rises above tests.

The KM simulation is a great way to showcase Kirk as someone who is destined for greatness, someone who challenges the teachers and bothers to ask why. He cheats not because he is a cheater, he cheats because he simply does not believe in losing.

Starfleet realizes this in the end and ruled in his favor. They know James T Kirk cheated because he wanted to win and he found a way to do it, hence being awarded for original thinking.

Before being beamed on board the USS Enterprise via Transwarp beaming by Spock Prime, Kirk says to Spock Prime, “coming back in time, changing history, it’s cheating.”

Spock Prime, “a trick I learned from a old friend.”

This scene illustrates clearly what both thought about, “cheating.”
The camera pans into Spock Prime and then closes in on Kirk, both smiling and nodding.

#623

I have seen many gamers freeze and not be able to function to their ability when faced with the possibility of dying in game, just look to any mmo raiding a dungeon with 40 other players where they fail because they cracked under the pressure of being able to heal or tank in a stressful situation.

I have played with many team mates in hockey where they couldn’t score that timely goal just because they froze and cracked under the pressure, so games is a great analogy to a simulation test trying to uncover character traits and tendencies when faced with danger/fear. The same can be said about poker live and online poker, players get scared to raise and lose the pot because they became afraid of losing.

All this goes back to Bob and Alex’s brilliant writing in explaining the function of the KM test, this maybe one of my favorite lines in the movie.

“The purpose is to experience fear, fear in the face of certain death, to accept that fear and maintain control of oneself and ones crew, this is a quality expected in every starfleet captain.”

This is the epitome of leadership and the difference between winners and losers.

637. Jack - January 24, 2010

590 (I think), I respectfully disagree, I think the “enterprise isn’t just another ship” stuff has been overused in Trek generally — I want the story (stories) to show me why it’s not just another ship, and not just another crew… The “legend” stuff got a little heavy in the movies, just in my opinion…

Even calling it “our newest flagship”felt a little off, in TOS there was always the sense that they were remarkable for what they were doing, but that they weren’t, you know, the A-team or anything.

Re: kobayashi maru, I think a line from McCoy, “damn it Jim, you’ve broken every damned record in this place and you STILL have to beat the unbeatable test? Haven’t you proved enough?” — maybe shorter and better written than mine, might have helped to show his mindset and accomplishments… I still like Gary Mitchell’s description of the over-serious Lt. Kirk, a walking stack of books.

And I don’t think the test is a cheat, and Kirk automatically a hero for beating it, as has been mentioned here,in Star Trek lore, or at least in Trek 2 — it’s still being used in Kirk’s time (and he’s supervising it) and the whole point is that he hadn’t really faced death, ever. But his having to beat it shows a pretty key part of his character… In trek 09 it was played for laughs, but I think it mostly came across that his having to win wasn’t just a lark – he’s pretty deadly serious about it…

638. S. John Ross - January 24, 2010

#636: “The KM simulation is a great way to showcase Kirk as someone who is destined for greatness”

Precisely. And … unfortunately.

Because RM Kirk is _destined_ for greatness (and the film hammers home that he is) he can never be anything but a tool. He’s a nothing. A loser.

639. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

#638

he⋅ro
  /ˈhɪəroʊ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [heer-oh]
–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4. Classical Mythology.
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
5. hero sandwich.
6. the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.

I think RM Kirk satisfies the majority interpretation of hero. Just because someone is destined for greatness does not make him any less of a hero. We know he is destined because we watched/observed another reality in which he was, so to preclude that he is destined for greatness is not too far fetched.

640. somethoughts - January 24, 2010

*conclude

641. S. John Ross - January 24, 2010

#639: “Just because someone is destined for greatness does not make him any less of a hero.”

Indeed. Many definitions of “hero” in mythology and high fantasy _require_ some manner of divine puppetry.

But as your post so ably demonstrates, there are many kinds of hero, and this is, again, a difference between RM Kirk and Prime Kirk … Prime Kirk was (in the TV series) the kind of “hero” that real men can be, the kind defined by their choices, their morals, their sacrifices, their losses, and their (within the fictional context) will.

It doesn’t make him less of a hero, by any dictionary definition. On this we do not disagree. But it does make him less of a man … in fact, it makes him less _than_ a man. It makes him a puppet, a tool. A nothing.

But, certainly, a heroic one, in the mythic/religious sense.

642. Kenji - January 24, 2010

Thank you for a delightful, refreshing film.

They aren’t many long-term Star Trek fans among us Japanese, but I feel most of them were highly impressed. It captured the new generation audience brilliantly as well. Which is why there’s gonna be a sequel! Touch wood, it will be engaging as its predecessor.

A new, threatening villain would be nice, but adding a situation that challenges a character emotionally would make the story greater. A death of one of the characters … especially someone who played a major role and has made a place in our hearts during the first film … Pike for example. We would never expect that coming after the near death he experienced in XI. And he definitely has become like a father figure to Kirk, so losing him … would be heart wrenching for Kirk and also for us all. Overcoming and accepting the death of someone close to your heart is a huge step forward to becoming a stronger individual … I want to see something strong and convincing like that.

About the Spock/Uhura fling. FMP, it was convincing … I felt that it happened from something Uhura felt she had to do to support Spock get a hold of himself; by taking in and expressing his repressed emotions through herself like a faucet. Spock accepting this made it feel romantic. I think it was really clever (of Uhura, and the writers). Thus, the transporter scene was not so contrived … and come on, it was funny. Yes, I wouldn’t mind seeing more of Scotty.

And Keenser. More Keenser.

643. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

633: “The test as presented in the movie has value to an institution such as Starfleet. What an institution does with those tests is another matter. SImply because Kirk thought it was a cheat does not make it so.”

And if I think apples are oranges I do not turn apples into oranges, either. Which is what we’ve got between what you and I are saying.

You could time travel back to the 50′s south and stand up for a black woman whom you don’t think should be made to give up her seat for a white woman on a bus, and the police probably wouldn’t agree with you there either — and the policeman would still be wrong for enforcing that.

Just because an institution does this or that or is looking for this or that doesn’t make it immune from criticism or challenge. Sometimes challenge and criticism is exactly what institutions need regardless of what they think is best.

634: “the new romance with Uhura makes him more of a paradox, there is so much more depth to him, it is refreshing.”

No. Throwing Spock into a full fledged romance, which he is not into in yet, by the way, doesn’t make him more of a paradox but LESS of one. It makes Spock indistinguishable from the surrounding humans and makes him LESS alien and mysterious.

Which is too bad, because what that really says is that some people would rather destroy Spock by owning him, rather than appreciate him for the unique qualities that he possesses as an alien. Some of you Spockaholics have the Midas Touch and are willing to destroy him by turning him into the thing that YOU value more rather than accepting the character for what he has always been. It’s that sort of “love” that turns the world into one big great ball of homogenized sameness. So much for respecting the diversity of Vulcan culture and mores. I guess for some fans it’s just NOT okay to be different. They seem only WILLING to accept you if you do, feel, and think exactly as they do.

Just don’t talk to me at least about the “dumbing down” of Star Trek if you get your wish.

641: “Prime Kirk was (in the TV series) the kind of “hero” that real men can be, the kind defined by their choices, their morals, their sacrifices, their losses, and their (within the fictional context) will.

It doesn’t make him less of a hero, by any dictionary definition. On this we do not disagree. But it does make him less of a man … in fact, it makes him less _than_ a man. It makes him a puppet, a tool. A nothing.”

How can he be a hero and not have choice? How can he be a hero if he is just a puppet?

He is a hero, if he is one at all, because his choices make him one. He doesn’t get that title any other way but falsely, sort of the way Gene Roddenberry did when people attributed things to him he didn’t do and he left the record uncorrected with his silence.

Kirk Pine is a hero in the same way that Kirk Prime was: Because of his choices which flow from being who he is. Now, if you want to say that he has the same spirit or soul, or that he is the same sort of person in both universes, so what? All that means is that Kirk is still Kirk in both universes and that what made him successful in one made him the same way in the other.

Most people would observe those qualities as indicators of a winner, not a loser.

Or are you really implying that Kirk Prime is a hero because he was accidentally heroic? If so, what has that got to do with the choice that you say marks the working man’s hero which by every measure I counted Kirk Pine satisfied?

644. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

642. Kenji – January 24, 2010

Thank you for a delightful, refreshing film.

They aren’t many long-term Star Trek fans among us Japanese,

*******

Kenji, if you are still there — do you have any ideas why that is so?

645. Bill - January 24, 2010

fairly sure this post will be lost in with all the others, but if anyone out there is reading, please bring Shatner in for a Cameo in the next film. To exclude him from this is truly a slight to the whole idea of Star Trek. He’s as important as Nemoy, as important as anything Star Trek ever could offer… even though he is an ass in real life, he should have a small Cameo in some manner to further the bridge between the old and new…

646. ryanhuyton - January 24, 2010

#645 As long as it isn’t forced. I have faith that Bob will come up with a logical way of having him in the sequel. If not, then it won’t happen. Of course, Shatner may have to settle for cameo or a smaller amount of screen time than he is accustomed to.

647. S. John Ross - January 24, 2010

#643: “How can he be a hero and not have choice? How can he be a hero if he is just a puppet?”

In the real-world sense, he can’t be. But in the mythological/demigod sense, he not only can be, but such an arrangement doesn’t even ping as unusual. Just depends on what kind of hero we’re talking about. I’m reasonably sure the kind that’s a roll or sandwich is also choice-lite on the hero’s part.

“Kirk Pine is a hero in the same way that Kirk Prime was.”

I disagree. See prior posts.

“Or are you really implying that Kirk Prime is a hero because he was accidentally heroic?” [...] “If so, what has that got to do with the choice that you say marks the working man’s hero which by every measure I counted Kirk Pine satisfied?”

I have made no posts about a “working man’s” hero, no posts about being “accidentally” heroic, and no posts that suggest these things by implication.

648. PhotonTorpedo - January 24, 2010

I’m going to go on a limb and say that a large reason why they aren’t taking the Kirk/Spock route is for bad publicity. But let’s be frank: That complex relationship between Kirk and Spock gave Star Trek it’s overwhelming beauty. Torchwood did it and society won’t be more open to such a relationship until it’s spoon fed to them. And isn’t that what Star Trek is all about? Stretching and opening the human experience to where almost no one would accept it, challenging the ideals of today and tomorrow? I think tossing the K/S concept into the past would be irresponsible if not an insult to not only the work everyone put into those two beautiful characters, but for what Star Trek stands for too. (Aside from it being half the fanbase.) Just too much of Star Trek material from each episodic reaction and even Roddenberry’s novel adaptation of the first movie is dedicated to it. I’m saying this as someone who was introduced to Trek through the new movie. At first I loved Spock/Uhura, until I began the original series and saw how much more coherent and passionate the Kirk/Spock was. It isn’t simply a matter of Fanservice. Kirk/Spock is just too important to Star Trek to ignore. Mr. Bob, Mr. Alex, you’ve recreated something wondrous that will never be forgotten. For the sake of Kirk and Spock as characters, please remember these words!

As a side note, Yes, please bring Shatner back. That last scene should have been filmed. I’m glad however that we at least got to know of it. Shatner Kirk meant too much to Spock Prime, and I think it would only serve to further increase the greatness and emotional impact of this everlasting series. And let’s be frank here: It’s Captain James T. Kirk. Let him and Spock have another go at that journey.

649. Charla - January 24, 2010

Ok, time to stop the bantering, and have some cookies and milk. I am bringing that back up to give all of you a time out. ;)

I still say a longer Star Trek next time too.

Anyone else feel this way? About the longer movie that is-

650. dmduncan - January 24, 2010

647: “In the real-world sense, he can’t be. But in the mythological/demigod sense, he not only can be, but such an arrangement doesn’t even ping as unusual. Just depends on what kind of hero we’re talking about. I’m reasonably sure the kind that’s a roll or sandwich is also choice-lite on the hero’s part.”

There’s nothing in the movie that casts Pine Kirk as a puppet of the gods, and he’s not Shatner enough to play like a HAM sandwich.

But I did see him decide to take Pike’s advice, I did see him space dive onto the drilling platform and saw him again decide to dive off of it to save Sulu, and I did see him decide to pursue Nero. Because that’s who the character is. No strings attached.

651. Phineas - January 24, 2010

@PhotonTorpedo. I’m confused. Do you mean Kirk/Spock literally or figuratively? Because, they were not gay. They were just deep friends…and they still can be in this new universe.

652. Jack - January 24, 2010

643: the fictional test is still around (in the original timeline, mind you, but kirk’s cheating was part of the story) decades after Kirk cheated. And Kirk himself is supervising it (“there’s no correct solution. It’s a test of character”)… I don’t think either movie is saying he was a hero because he cheated, or that his argument about the test is necessarily right (“the test is the cheat”) I don’t think it was something young James T. was doing for the greater good in either story, even if he was trying to prove a point. It’s one simulation in an academy presumably full of them. 30 years later, in the original timeline, anyway, he finally starts to get that he was indeed missing the point of the test — the idea that he won’t always be able to change the rules and avoid death, loss, emotion — even if he later got it in theory… No? Although, in this flick, it could be argued that his motivations are more than just pride… His dad died saving the ship, it may be even more important now for Kirk to do so… Pine played it that way, anyway.

653. gingerly - January 25, 2010

648

I feel your shipper fear, here. :)

But remember only subtext *has always* been the sole fuel behind K/S, despite all the space women Kirk slept with.

So, I believe the same will go on here, despite all the earth woman (*ahem* Miss Uhura) Spock sleeps with.

They certainly did give us subtext in the reboot. Hello, choking scene on the bridge.

So, I don’t see where they’re straying from TOS… It’s *still* subtext.

And I *definitely* don’t see any kind of conspiracy to squash K/S. :)

Narratively, it would not make sense to suddenly make them both bisexual, as that would be what they would have to be, as they’ve both enjoyed lovely women in the reboot. …And that wasn’t a “Poker Face” situation. ;)

It would do a disservice to bisexuals, adding to the stereotype that they are sexually *greedy* and it would not make sense at this point with what they’ve set up with S/U.

Spock goes from wanting to give his dying words of love to Uhura to suddenly professing his romantic love for Kirk?

I don’t think so. That never happened in TOS and it’s okay that it doesn’t happen in the reboot.

The slash will still thrive.

And I’m sure that in the tradition of TOS, there will be plenty more subtextual fuel for the OG slash ship. :)

654. gingerly - January 25, 2010

643. dmduncan

I just have one question. Have you ever been in a healthy loving relationship?

655. spocksgal - January 25, 2010

@643 I agree the test is flawed, if a military establishment wants to test a cadets reaction to fear in the face of death the worse thing to do is let them know it is a test.
I would have thought by the 23rd century the students can be beamed into an area and test their skills that way and not let the students know its all a holographic simulation.

“Throwing Spock into a full fledged romance, which he is not into in yet, by the way, doesn’t make him more of a paradox but LESS of one. It makes Spock indistinguishable from the surrounding humans and makes him LESS alien and mysterious.”

I disagree, Spock having a romance is no less alien than his father having one or any other other offworlder having one. You are implying non Terrans having a romance diminishes them as non Terrans?
The flaw with TOS (and it was probably down to budget constraints), they showed a human crew manning the flagship of a mixed species organisation called Starfleet, the military establishment for a multi planet group called The Federation with its one token non Terran on board named Spock. That is like in our time having earth’s UN peacekeeping force made up of 98% American WASPs with 1% Asian and 1% African. No mixed race military establishment can afford to have only race represented in its rank unless it wants to be charged with racism/speicism. Too many fanfics and fans seem to think Spock was the only alien in Starfleet and see him in that light. He was the only Vulcan in Starfleet but he was no token alien.

656. S. John Ross - January 25, 2010

#649 “Anyone else feel this way? About the longer movie that is-”

If Abrams directs again, sure. At such a breakneck pace they could run it an extra hour and it wouldn’t feel overlong :)

#650: “There’s nothing in the movie that casts Pine Kirk as a puppet of the gods.”

I disagree; it’s one of the many Star Wars elements on display (whiny farm boy is told by surrogate father-figure that he has Superior Blood in him, which is Superior in its Anointed Better Specialness …). And to be clear, I don’t just mean Pike’s beliefs about Kirk — those could be explained away as personal brute-stupid superstition on his part, and yet _another_ case of of the short-door cliche. I also mean Spock’s comments later in the film, which Orci has confirmed to (in his mind at least) represent a kind of willful universe, “acting” to preserve certain core possible scenarios across the timelines (I’m paraphrasing but, I don’t think in any way that misrepresents).

And of course, authorial intent is not canon, yadda-yadda, but I think I’m clearly on the record of holding canon in even greater contempt than this film’s dialogue ;) The other option is assuming that Prime Spock, too, is simply superstitious, but that’s an unsavory concept (and if it’s the case, in the next movie Leonard Nimoy might become the villain as he battles with Bendii Syndrome …)

657. spocksgal - January 25, 2010

@648 there was no Kirk/Spock love affair in the TOS unless you believe men can only show love and affection to each other if they are gay.
Which just enforces the stereotype of what is considered acceptable platonic hetrosexual behaviour based on some western hangup on how males can show friendship. I agree one can argue the case either way for a K/S relationship but what makes their pro argument more valid than a K/Mc, S/U, Sc/U?

658. captain_neill - January 25, 2010

569

Star Trek V is prob my least fav of the Star Trek movies but to me it is still canon despite some flaws regarding how fast they get to the centre of the galaxy

Although the new movie is a better movie, Star Trek V is canon to me yet the new movie is not.

659. TrekkieJan - January 25, 2010

Wow, awesome discussion, still going strong! I love reading the different points of view.

I’ve already put in my vote in previous discussions for a role for Shatner (and Nimoy together, please) in the sequel, and if it is ever possible, for Mr. Orci’s heartbreakingly beautiful but unfilmed Shatner scene to be put on a future DVD edition of IV. Please.

I’d love to see an Orci/Kurtzman Khan. Brilliant and commanding, he’d make a splendid adversary.

Beyond that, yes, new universe, not my father’s Star Trek, got it. (Although it never was my father’s Star Trek, it was mine. :D ) Have fun with writing the sequel, guys. Keep it amazing.

On a separate point, I would like to banish the notion that Shatner/Kirk always got the girl or even that he chased women. It’s untrue. For proof, there’s this site: http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/kisskirk.htm – the site is not for faint of heart but this page enumerates ep by ep who got the girl and why and is SFW. (I thought of posting my own version here, but with 77 episodes and several movies, it would be too long.) The point is Kirk was a gentleman. If he was romancing someone it was a strategy (and only happened in a very few episodes.) Spock was just as successful with the ladies, by the numbers (2). The one abiding love in TOS was Kirk and Spock’s.

660. innocent passerby - January 25, 2010

@657
there was no Kirk/Spock love affair in the TOS unless you believe men can only show love and affection to each other if they are gay.

LOL! So they DO show love and affection for each other, don’t they? Quite a lot, actually?
Seriously, though, that is not the point. Platonic friendship – all right, if you wish. Platonic love. “Two halves which come together to make a whole”. But it’s hard to deny that the very essence of TOS is this relationship between Kirk and Spock. And also, there’s McCoy, who DOES NOT have such an all-encompassing bond as they do (you’d have to be blind not to tell the difference), but he is equally important to the dynamics of TOS, which is exactly the thing that made it so great.

And now – you wish to put Uhura in his place? And instead of the trio, there’s this convoluted ‘love triangle’? Right, go ahead. A matter of taste, after all. It’s just not to my taste, not at all.
(Regardless, I’d absolutely love to see more McCoy in the sequel. Bones needs moar love!)

As Spooky (back at 120) has already brilliantly formulated, Uhura is going to be the most important person in Spock’s life. He may still somehow resemble old Spock (but all the fascinating gradual revelation of ‘emotions are OK!’ which took TOS Spock all the series & the first movie to achieve – it is lost, but whatever, that is not all that makes him Spock…) But – the problem is, in that case you inevitably lose K&S wonderful duo. It’s not a matter of slash, it’s a matter of general characters set-up. Again, it’s only a personal preference.

(Btw, Scotty/Uhura is pretty canon in TFF, I don’t see a way out of it at all.)

I’m sorry I’m raising all this stuff again, KM discussion is much more productive, but I had to put my two cents in.

661. Weerd1 - January 25, 2010

656- I think the counter to your argument is based around whether or not we accept the Prime timeline as actually BEING the “Prime” timeline. If it is in fact the first timeline where this set of similar events occurred, then the standard for what Kirk is was set by Kirk himself. Any subsequent timelines may push toward the events of the original, but it will still be up to the individual actors within the new causality chain to accept their role. I don’t think the writers are implying any form of consciousness (God forbid we get into a theological debate), but simply that time has a tendency to flow a certain way (something proposed by Spock in ‘City on the Edge of Forever”). Kirk as a creature of free will has the ability to swim “upstream” if you will, and does for much of his early life. When he does finally enter the academy, the Kirk skills and luck factor (which were certainly present in TOS) are helped along by the fact he is now following a path closer to the original timeline, and therefore with the flow time will have a tendency to follow.

Sure, there’s a “destiny” waiting for Kirk, but HE HAS TO CHOOSE to follow that path. He has to choose not to settle for an ordinary life, he has to choose not to just allow the KM test to beat him, he has to choose to defy the rules and tell Pike what he thinks is happening at Vulcan, he has to choose to try to take the Enterprise from Spock. Indeed Spock’s actions getting him off the ship simply demonstrate actors CAN choose to move in an opposite direction from the timeline’s tendency. Spock later has to choose for himself which path to take, and that path is to continue at Jim Kirk’s side.

We as the audience know they are making the right choices- within that realm though, those characters don’t know they are doing what they should, and that makes their choices heroic, despite what help may come from a timeline’s druthers…

Just my thoughts.

662. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#659

“I’d love to see an Orci/Kurtzman Khan. Brilliant and commanding, he’d make a splendid adversary.”

Just reading this makes me wish they go down this path and give us a story filled with both adventure(through space/time/character drama) and excitement.

As Amanda says, “Whatever you choose to do, you will have proud fans.”

663. P Technobabble - January 25, 2010

633. Red

“..SImply because Kirk thought it was a cheat does not make it so….”

True… but maybe it does. Maybe Kirk is right. Maybe the institution is out of touch with the people… sorta like Congress. Maybe there are a lot of people who, like Kirk, feel the K M test is bogus, but they don’t have the kahunas that Kirk does. We already know he’s a bit of a rebel. Even Prime Kirk would have to be considered a rebel for changing the conditions of the test. His justification is that he doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario. Maybe he’s right. Perhaps there is no such thing as the no-win scenario, simply because we can always make a choice of some kind. It doesn’t mean we always make the winning choice… we make mistakes, too. It’s Kirk’s attitude, however, that makes him the kind of Captain he is, not because he always follows the conventions of the institution — which he doesn’t. And, as he said in “Court Martial,” “Nothing is more important than my ship.” We haven’t seen this side of him, yet, in the new universe, but I imagine it will come through.
This is my perspective, for which I take full responsibility….

664. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

643. “I just have one question. Have you ever been in a healthy loving relationship?”

What a bizarre question. Why do you ask? You want names? Numbers? Poems? If you are asking out of an assumption that my arguments come from a place of not knowing what it’s like either to love or be loved, I would advise that you explore other possibilities for an answer, dear Gingerly.

656: “I disagree; it’s one of the many Star Wars elements on display (whiny farm boy is told by surrogate father-figure that he has Superior Blood in him, which is Superior in its Anointed Better Specialness …)”

The “Star Wars” elements aren’t “Star Wars” anymore than electrons were invented by Thomas Edison. Much older than that, and they exist for reasons which are demonstrably not stupid at all. While Star Trek taps into the same mythic material that Star Wars taps into, they both illustrate that stuff in very different ways. Kirk is NOT chosen by The Force, he just is what he is in both universes; unless you have a gripe about the notion that human beings are not blank slates, which would be a hard one to defend, I think, then there’s nothing to crow about regarding that Kirk turns out the same in both universes.

“And to be clear, I don’t just mean Pike’s beliefs about Kirk — those could be explained away as personal brute-stupid superstition on his part,”

Or perceptive insights on Pike’s part. Otherwise known as “thin slicing,” where one is able to make long term predictions from a few briefly observed variables. Again, no invocation of the “supernatural,” which I am not averse to by any means and at times prefer actually, is needed.

“I also mean Spock’s comments later in the film, which Orci has confirmed to (in his mind at least) represent a kind of willful universe, “acting” to preserve certain core possible scenarios across the timelines (I’m paraphrasing but, I don’t think in any way that misrepresents).”

Given how many times I have seen the movie now I am ashamed to say I am drawing a blank! Which of Spock’s comments do you mean?

Although I do not find the idea of a willful universe objectionable, I didn’t detect that implication in this film. But maybe I’m filtering it out?

Just as modern science does not do, this film does not touch upon the question of whether the universe is willful or not. You can provide that interpretation. Or come up with a different scenario to explain what you saw happen. But again, maybe I’m unconsciously filtering it out.

And this was part of a larger discussion in an earlier thread when I mentioned The Time Machine (2002). Where a given outcome (x) in your life is the result of a confluence between your life (r) and another event (p) at moment t1, and assuming, without any strings attached by ye gods, that x follows by any number of events other than p intersecting your life at moments OTHER than t1, i.e., t2, t3, t4, etc, then clearly, preventing a confluence of r and p at t1 to yield outcome x, isn’t going to alter the same outcome (x) from happening at t2, t3, t4 etc by means other than p (OR by p, if indeed it is possible for “event lines” to radiate from central points in different directions simultaneously, thereby intersecting other event lines at multiple loci, i.e, t2, t3, t4).

The only question is, is that the way the universe works? And the answer is, we don’t know. But it’s an interesting question and, within science fiction, a perfectly reasonable one to explore as was done in The Time Machine, and, one can argue (I just did), in Star Trek.

On the other hand is always the risk that it’s just as impossible as revisiting the past by slingshotting around the sun. But that’s part of what SF is for. But if we ask a difficult enough question, then only our descendants will know how wise or foolish we were. And maybe the question is so good that not even they will know.

665. Nata - January 25, 2010

@613. dmduncan
I TSFS Kirk got Spock back
Again missing the point. He got Spock back but he lost his ship and his son. He experienced what loss meant – that’s what it’s all about, as he never felt it before. He got the meaning of KM.
And some things stayed lost. He got Spock back but was he ever the same after this? See St-4. He got replacement Enterprise but I bet it was never the same – see St-5 where it’s all broken down. And the loss of his son still affects him in ST-6.

The point of KM goes so much deeper than an institution gimmick. Yes, it looked cheesy on-screen – it was clear it was a similuation in both TWOK and ST09. But like in any show, you have to accept that decorations aren’t real but then forget it and get past them, to be immersed in a story.

Maybe they could show the test in a cooler, more dire settings – but they trusted the audience to get the point.
And it was really hammered in in TWOK – first it is a test, and Kirk is cavalier about how he cheated it. Then in the end it’s real, and Kirk gets the meaning. In his own words: “I used to cheat death, but now I get it”. You can’t always cheat on this test, sometimes it is a no-win.

You chose to see as purely an academic test with weird rules, but they put so much more into it – and if the viewers let themselves think deeper, they’d enrich their experience.

And actually, KM goes full circle in ST09 as well – just not as heavy and obvious as in TWOK. Nobody gets Kirk’s father back – and Kirk himself is permanently scarred by it. And Capt. Rubau is dead too – sorry.

And Kirk himself shows that he got the point of KM, that Spock’s words did sink in – when he confronts Spock about his own behaviour in a KM-like situation. Spock is frozen in shock after Vulcan destruction, he clings to the rules and routines and won’t allow himself to experience fear of death, of loss, to act desperate – like TOS!Spock came to act in the end of Galileo-7, for example. While for Spock Kirk’s words sink in – that not accepting no-win till the end might, in this case, pull them out.

That’s the beauty of it – they both come full circle and see each others’s point in the end. Both are wrong and right and both learn from each other.
It’s… eh… harmonising, as someone here likes to say. :)

But if you chose to limit it to academic dispute – OK, but why limit when there’s so much more in there?

666. Red Skirt - January 25, 2010

636. “He cheats not because he is a cheater, he cheats because he simply does not believe in losing.”

Cheating is never acceptable, especially if you simply don’t like to lose. But, I accept this instance for the reason Orci states: Kirk wanted to get caught to make a point, even if he was wrong about the value of the KM test.

“Starfleet realizes this in the end and ruled in his favor.”

Not in the film I saw. Doesn’t apply here as we never saw the outcome of his actions in the alternate universe. Starfleet had an obligation to make an example of Kirk, whether you agree or not. I don’t believe that doing so would in any way would have slowed him down, or that they would have disciplined him in any way that would have undermined his potential, which I think they clearly recognized. But Kirk had to learn the value of not only the test (which he affirms in the Prime Universe), but to respect authority and accept the consequences of his actions, which I think he expected. Not throwing him out of the academy would have been their way of letting him know they respect what he tried to do, and encourage him to continue to push the limits.

“I have seen many gamers freeze and not be able to function to their ability when faced with the possibility of dying in game,”

I would hope that juvenile level of stress would have been vetted out of a cadet long before they ever got to Starfleet, much less into the KM simulator.

“I have played with many team mates in hockey where they couldn’t score that timely goal just because they froze and cracked under the pressure,”

That at least has some life-threatning aspects to it. Military exercises like full contact sports are inherently life-threatening. Just because nobody tries to kill you doesn’t mean there isn’t always a threat when working in a dangerous environment. Helicopters on routine exercises aren’t supposed to crash into each other, but it happens. Those are real tests that compel real fear in a person – that something could go wrong. This idea that video gaming or he movies is in any way the same, much less sitting in an obvious simulator room with instructors looking on, is just ridiculous.

But, considering your favorite line is the badly explained KM, then you obviously agree with me. The KM has real merit to Starfleet in weeding out the losers from the winners and Kirk was wrong to think of it as a cheat as he was ultimately vindicated by it.

667. bbgon - January 25, 2010

Roddenberry: “Also, dramatically, I designed Kirk and Spock to complete each other – and in fact, the Kirk, Spock McCoy triad to be the dramatic embodiment of the parts of one person: logic, emotion, and the balance between them. You cannot have an internal monolog on the screen, so that is a way of personifying it, getting it out where it can be seen – that internal debate which we all have within.”

So, 1. Kirk and Spock are designed as a whole. If you take them apart, they are not themselves anymore. If you make it Spock+Uhura, it’s not Spock anymore, because they don’t complete each other the way Kirk and Spock do.
2. The dynamic between Kirk, Spock and McCoy is essential. If you make it Kirk+Spock+Uhura, they don’t represent the parts of one person, because Uhura isn’t the same emotional being as McCoy. K+S+U is a trivial love triangle, K+S+M has a philosophical point in it, an idea.

And, for God’s sake, don’t call Kirk and Spock “buds”. Buds drink beer on Fridays together. Kirk and Spock are friends, or if you wish, “t’hy’la”, as two halves of a whole. It’s not a pairing, it’s the main point in the dramatical structure of Star Trek. Take it away, and it all falls apart.

668. bbgon - January 25, 2010

One more thought to my previous post:
Kirk without Spock – it’s like Holmes without Watson, Jeeves without Wooster etc. If Watson, or Wooster, or Spock hooks up with a girl, it’s end of story, no more development.
[And yes, Watson married, but the adventures continued only when his wife wasn't there]

669. Red Skirt - January 25, 2010

656. S. John Ross,

“Orci has confirmed to (in his mind at least) represent a kind of willful universe, “acting” to preserve certain core possible scenarios across the timelines (I’m paraphrasing but, I don’t think in any way that misrepresents).”

You are not wrong about this. I read Orci’s explanation of the science behind the alternate reboot on this very website and he did say that there is ample science to support the theory that the universe is guiding events on the quantum level by those events more often resulting in one particular outcome over another. So, Orci was operating under this scientific concept of “fate” when he wrote this film.

People see what they want to see. They see meaning in a film where there is none, they miss meaning when it was clearly intended, simply because they carry their own biases and prejudices into the film with them, much of which is rooted in the franchise canon for the last 40 years which they cannot let go.

670. gingerly - January 25, 2010

#664.

dmduncan – January 25, 2010

643. “I just have one question. Have you ever been in a healthy loving relationship?”

What a bizarre question. Why do you ask? You want names? Numbers? Poems? If you are asking out of an assumption that my arguments come from a place of not knowing what it’s like either to love or be loved, I would advise that you explore other possibilities for an answer, dear Gingerly.

There was no assumption either way.

Though, I had hoped that if you had, that would trigger a *click* in your mind regarding your arguments that being in a relationship totally changes a character and removes all conflict from one’s life.

Because anyone who *has been* in a healthy, loving, relationship knows that simply isn’t true.

…If you come into a relationship with issues? Your lover doesn’t
just magically fix things.

And it *definitely* doesn’t change who you are. If it does? I highly suggest relationship counseling, because you’ve got a problem.

That was one of the biggest wins with the writing here. :)

Because, I recognized how honest and naked and just plain *true* to life and what that means, the turbolift scene was!

It truly was one of the most mature and real *love* scenes that I’ve witnessed in a movie.

Real love is about acceptance of who one is, not changing them around to fit what you wish.

And that was shown *not told* in spades, here.

Uhura asked Spock what he needed. And he gave a Vulcan answer.

….And though it was clear that he truly was hanging by a thread, she didn’t force it, she did not try to make him step away and release some of that, like he *clearly* needed to.

She simply accepted his answer and *him*, as he was.

…Even though she *knew* him well-enough to be certain that he needed more, and even with the pain it caused her to see him choosing more of it….

She dealt with that unselfishly, telling him simply “okay”, gifting him with a smile, even through her tears…

And that, my friend, is what real, healthy, unselfish love is all about.

671. Red Skirt - January 25, 2010

#625. Anthony, I think your summary is about right. However,

“As for the ‘hack’…i have always seen ‘changing the conditions of the test’ to mean that he changed the test, therefore ‘hacking’ the test in our modern parlance (or ‘cheating’), but that is all semantics. The notion of finding an exploit would actually mean he ‘beat’ the test WITHIN the conditions of the test, with no changes to the test. And that is not canon, that is ‘fanon’.”

Kirk clearly says in Star Trek II that he “reprogrammed the simulator”. So to the extent canon even applies in the alternate universe, that is consistent. My interest is wether he did it himself, in which case he is the computer sciences equal to Spock, or he had help, which I think the green girl provided and stayed true to Kirk’s character of using people, especially women, to achieve a means of winning. I had no problem with that, too bad someone else did. But I suspect that young Kirk comes across as such a fratboy douchebag already that they felt people might really have a problem with his “destiny” if they pushed it further. One of my favorite lines is when he seems genuinely shocked to find out the green girl may be more of player than he is with the line “how many guys have you brought back?” to her room. That line by itself is enough to redeem this “ladies man”. LOL

Plus there is a big difference between finding a way to reprogram the test by exploiting an opening in the software unseen by the more disciplined minds (untrained to think a cadet would be so brash as to try), and simply exploiting a flaw in the test, of which I would expect none from Spock. The former is definitely changing the test, the later as you point out, is not. In that case of the former, it is far more interesting than just writing a hack and replacing the program, but it also shows keen observational skills and critical thinking on Kirk’s part., without necessarily making him a computer genius too.

Nevertheless, we are not told how it was accomplished, which perhaps works better for the Kirk-wanted-to-be-caught-to-shove-the-test-in-Star-Fleet’s-face-angle. The hack as depicted is certainly far from elegant. As I recall the whole simulator shuts down for a second and then essentially reboots. Yeah, he definitely wasn’t trying to get away with anything, but instead prove a point, right or wrong.

672. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

669: “People see what they want to see. They see meaning in a film where there is none, they miss meaning when it was clearly intended, simply because they carry their own biases and prejudices into the film with them, much of which is rooted in the franchise canon for the last 40 years which they cannot let go.”

Oh lordy. You are one of the best cases of the pot calling the kettle black I’ve seen in a long time.

665: “Again missing the point. He got Spock back but he lost his ship and his son. He experienced what loss meant – that’s what it’s all about, as he never felt it before. He got the meaning of KM.”

Nata, you can keep saying “miss the point miss the point” all you want and it ain’t going to be so.

You can’t take it literally that Kirk never experienced death before! The red shirts in TOS dropped faster than sedentary centenarians chased by screaming Marine Corps drill instructors in the first half mile of the NYC marathon.

Those were his people he lost, lives he was responsible for, whose loss ANY Captain, if he is worth anything will take personally. So if it doesn’t mean that, what DOES it mean? You go review TWOK and try to figure it out. It’s there.

“You chose to see as purely an academic test with weird rules, but they put so much more into it – and if the viewers let themselves think deeper, they’d enrich their experience.”

I’ve covered it already. I’m not the one who has a problem seeing things from different perspectives, the ones who say Kirk is just flat out wrong are. They are the ones having issues with challenges to authority. It’s the Red Skirts that are having the harder time seeing it from the more nuanced perspective. They are the ones who want the blunt end to be the only point there is.

“That at least has some life-threatning aspects to it. Military exercises like full contact sports are inherently life-threatening. Just because nobody tries to kill you doesn’t mean there isn’t always a threat when working in a dangerous environment. Helicopters on routine exercises aren’t supposed to crash into each other, but it happens. Those are real tests that compel real fear in a person – that something could go wrong.”

It’s just a really bad idea to lecture me on this, Red Skirt. Military exercises are not “inherently life threatening,” they are potentially so. And the mention of people dying in military helicopter crashes has particular relevance to me.

“This idea that video gaming or he movies is in any way the same, much less sitting in an obvious simulator room with instructors looking on, is just ridiculous.”

That’s your straw man, and no argument that I’m making. Your refusal to distinguish between what is identical and what is similar is foolishly stubborn.

667: bbgon: “Roddenberry: “Also, dramatically, I designed Kirk and Spock to complete each other – and in fact, the Kirk, Spock McCoy triad to be the dramatic embodiment of the parts of one person: logic, emotion, and the balance between them. You cannot have an internal monolog on the screen, so that is a way of personifying it, getting it out where it can be seen – that internal debate which we all have within.”

OH MY!!! Are you kidding me bbgon? Is that a genuine quote from Gene Roddenberry? Where can I find it?

Because I have NEVER read that quote, at least not that I can recall, and yet that is exactly what I’ve been saying in here. That is exactly what I got from watching TOS as a kid. That is exactly the case I’ve been defending here. To read Gene Roddenberry’s own words explicitly saying the same thing is a revelation to me.

And it’s the very foundation of my argument AGAINST turning Spock/Uhura into a full blown romance in the NEXT movie. NOT because “it’s 40 years old and some people can’t change blah blah blah wah wah wah…”

I mean if you want to point to a concrete way that Star Trek CAN be dumbed down, it’s to lose that point that Roddenberry is making by blurring the differences among cold logical Vulcan behavior, uncritical feeling, and the balance of those two things that LEADS.

673. gingerly - January 25, 2010

#672

And it’s the very foundation of my argument AGAINST turning Spock/Uhura into a full blown romance in the NEXT movie.

Turn into? It was demonstrated as one already, Star Trek XI.

But it seems many missed that.

674. bbgon - January 25, 2010

@672 dmduncan
I took the quote from here (http://www.allyourtrekarebelongto.us/prooflove.htm), it says [From: Shatner: Where No Man...: The Authorized Biography of William Shatner (Chapter 7 - Page 145, 147-8)]

675. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#672

LOL

676. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#666

“I would hope that juvenile level of stress would have been vetted out of a cadet long before they ever got to Starfleet, much less into the KM simulator.”

Try telling that to guild leaders online who build guilds based upon skill, ability, character traits of new recruits/gamers looking to play end game content in mmo. Just because it is in a virtual world/simulation does not mean character traits and the ability to handle fear/death can not be measured.

When you team mates die in the virtual world it has a big impact on your team/ability to function and to beat the content, most of the time, another attempt at the end game monster/dungeon cannot be made until the following week due to respawns/timing issues so that fear is real and is there.

I believe the KM simulation is to measure command ability and leadership and they are looking for cadets that have a certain quality, ie. being able to handle high levels of stress/fear and be able to perform ones duty.

677. boborci - January 25, 2010

What a great discussion on this thread. thanks to all, positive and negative — gets the mind going.

678. Anthony Pascale - January 25, 2010

Red skirt

Yeah, he definitely wasn’t trying to get away with anything, but instead prove a point, right or wrong.

Agreed. with the key line being ‘right or wrong’ I think a lot of the debate here seems to be based on the assumption there is a ‘right answer’ here. There is not. The scene and film are written so that you can agree with either Kirk or Spock, so that neither is wrong.

For all we know Kirk got a reprimand for reprogramming the simulator right along with his commendation for original thinking.

But again all of this is not the point. The KM scene is not a fan servicing opportunity to show how clever he is, it is a scene to show the audience what kind of man he is, a man who doesnt play by the rules and who doesnt believe in the no win situation. It also services the plot to create conflict with Spock, a conflict that is culminated when they differ on what to do: rescue Pike/attack Nero or rejoin the fleet. Spock sees attacking Nero as a ‘no win’, Kirk doesnt accept that ‘either we go down or they do’.

So for all those who want something ‘clever’…the clever bit is to use the KM test as an expose on the characters of the two key characters in the film and foreshadow their ultimate showdown.

And to be honest, how it was done in the prime universe is totally irrelevant. I imagine Kirk Prime’s solution may be different, but so whwat? As noted by Bob, here they are ‘harmonizing’ with canon. PineKirk’s solution certainly meets that guideline.

And back to the point of ‘right or wrong’. I think that many fan debates are based on the assumption that there is a ‘right answer’ on how to do things, and that answer is often the one they have imagined they want to see, and therefore everything else is ‘wrong’. I believe there are many ways they can have done things in STAR TREK 2009, and they could all be ‘right answers’

I really worry for those who have imagined things one way and feel that is ‘right’ (which it may be), but then feel that all else is wrong, regardless of merit.

679. Nata - January 25, 2010

@672. dmduncan
Those were his people he lost, lives he was responsible for, whose loss ANY Captain, if he is worth anything will take personally. So if it doesn’t mean that, what DOES it mean? You go review TWOK and try to figure it out. It’s there.
Ah-ha. Finally I can see where our cognitive dissonance is.
For me it is so obvious that Spock ain’t another redshirt or another crewmember with a different shirt color.
Spock is the closest person in the world to him, his second half (Roddenberry’s words which you loved), more than a brother.

Kirk is a captain and a soldier, he saw death and loss before, yes.
But it’s the first time in his life when death struck so close to home. See the end of TWOK, his own words to David – that only death of Spock made him experience true loss (and according to those words, even losing his brother on Deneva apparently didn’t hit so hard).
So if we don’t view loss of Spock as Kirk’s first true loss in life – like losing a child, a wife, someone closest to you – then we won’t agree on the meaning of TWOK and KM test.

Also, we can’t say that TSFS shows that Kirk was able to cheat death and real-life KM test of TWOK, because he got Spock back.
That’s not what happened there.
Kirk cheated and broke rules to bring Spock’s KATRA back, to lay him to rest on Vulcan, and to save McCoy from madness. That’s what he did.

He didn’t plan or hope to get Spock back alive – no one did. When that happened it was a MIRACLE, had nothing to do with Kirk, happened by divine providence, if you will (going by Genesis parallels).

And that’s important – because cheating implies conscious efforts to thwart fate. But Kirk accepted his and Spock’s fate, he experienced true grief and loss and accepted it.
One can also say that TWOK, and TSFS, was about Kirk experiencing humility – also his mortality and vulnerability. Getting a kind of miracle bestowed on you doesn’t negate it – just reinforces the lesson in humility, i.e. something may occur which you can’t influence or bring about.

And as for Roddenberry’s quotes about Kirk and Spock: there are many amazing ones, the man couldn’t help but waxed poetic about them and how they are a cornerstone of his work.
The quote about two halves of the whole, and also about KSM triumvirate, are from here:
Shatner: Where No Man…: The Authorized Biography of William Shatner (Chapter 7 – Page 145, 147-8)

680. TrekkieJan - January 25, 2010

@gingerly 653

~But remember only subtext *has always* been the sole fuel behind K/S, despite all the space women Kirk slept with.~

Kirk slept with two women in the course of the series and movies (as per my previous post) and neither negate the possibility of his having a relationship with Spock. I’m not counting Carol Marcus pre-series but for all we know David could have been lab made. She was a geneticist.

~They certainly did give us subtext in the reboot. Hello, choking scene on the bridge.~

I my opinion, this scene isn’t subtext. It’s a dramatic scene that people with a lot of imagination see as sexy. People who like to slash characters don’t need much to go on, bless their hearts.

But you should be aware that a great number of Kirk/Spock people are not actually fanfic writers who like to pair up people based on how attractive they find them. We just watched TOS with open eyes and saw a love for each other than was never challenged or matched by anyone else in their lives. That meant something to us. It’s vastly, heroically romantic. (I have nothing against slash, btw. Or fanfic.)

~Narratively, it would not make sense to suddenly make them both bisexual, as that would be what they would have to be, as they’ve both enjoyed lovely women in the reboot.

Why shouldn’t they be bisexual? Most humans are bisexual, at least functionally. Maybe in the 23rd century, if we’ve done away with the need for fraternization rules we’re also more open, accepting and experimental about sex. We see Kirk with an Orion girl. Maybe last week he was with an Orion boy. We don’t know, and you can’t say. And who’s to say Uhura is the first being Spock’s been with? Not me.

~It would do a disservice to bisexuals, adding to the stereotype that they are sexually *greedy* and it would not make sense at this point with what they’ve set up with S/U.~

I don’t know about doing a disservice to bisexuals. In fact, it might have struck a blow for sexual equality (although Roddenberry knew and we know the world’s not ready and these people had tickets to sell) but I agree, the present holders of the toybox have pretty much made their stand. Or maybe they’ll be brave and crazy and there will be an arc? (Not holding my breath.)

~I don’t think so. That never happened in TOS and it’s okay that it doesn’t happen in the reboot.~

Uh…Spock did give his dying words to Kirk in TWOK. And he frequently demonstrated his devotion, risking life and breaking rules for Kirk when nothing else so moved him. It was conceived and written and directed as a love relationship. Text, not subtext.

~The slash will still thrive.~

Of course it will. But speaking for myself, I don’t want to turn to slash. I loved TOS and felt the Kirk/Spock dynamic was central to it. It defines TOS and is what makes it special.

681. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

“But, considering your favorite line is the badly explained KM, then you obviously agree with me. The KM has real merit to Starfleet in weeding out the losers from the winners and Kirk was wrong to think of it as a cheat as he was ultimately vindicated by it.”

How is the test not a cheat when Kirk feels his first/second attempt warranted success? He does not believe in a no win scenario, that is his belief and how can you argue what he can or cannot believe in? This is what makes Kirk so awesome, the writers(TWOK) are telling the audience, this Kirk, he never loses, he’s a legend. How awesome is that?

It is very possible both Kirk and Spock are correct in their argument and this is resolved when, Kirk says to Spock Prime, “coming back in time, changing history, it’s cheating.”

Spock Prime, “a trick I learned from a old friend.”

Although Kirk and Spock debated about cheating near the beginning of the film, I believe they both reconciled here.

682. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

*#666

683. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

679: “Also, we can’t say that TSFS shows that Kirk was able to cheat death and real-life KM test of TWOK, because he got Spock back.
That’s not what happened there.
Kirk cheated and broke rules to bring Spock’s KATRA back,”

I think that’s a distinction without a difference. I read “katra” as “soul,” the essence of who Spock was, so he did in fact get Spock back which again is indicated in the end of TSFS when Spock, not yet fully recovered his past identity, asks Kirk why he would do all that he did, and Kirk answers memorably: “Because the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.”

So it’s really cool to me to see how the new film portrays the young Kirk in a way that I forgot he had already been portrayed in TSFS where without command of a ship and in many ways right back where he started as a youth, he says “what the hell” and goes totally rogue for what he thinks is the right thing to do regardless of what Starfleet is yet AGAIN telling him he has to accept.

So cool.

684. S. John Ross - January 25, 2010

#678: “As noted by Bob, here they are ‘harmonizing’ with canon. PineKirk’s solution certainly meets that guideline.”

It certainly matches up with the other example of “harmonizing” we’ve discussed ;)

“And back to the point of ‘right or wrong’. I think that many fan debates are based on the assumption that there is a ‘right answer’ on how to do things, and that answer is often the one they have imagined they want to see, and therefore everything else is ‘wrong’.”

And then there are other takes on it, explicitly (see post #553).

I think for _most_ of us, there is no “right” or “wrong” in this alternate universe, but there is “dimwitted” or “smart” and “brave” or “cowardly” and “original” and “derivative” and “challenging” and “cheap” and “passionate” and “workmanlike” and “skillfully and artfully done” and “ham-fistedly hammered into the audience’s face” and these paired concepts are more interesting to explore.

685. gingerly - January 25, 2010

680.

~They certainly did give us subtext in the reboot. Hello, choking scene on the bridge.~

I my opinion, this scene isn’t subtext. It’s a dramatic scene that people with a lot of imagination see as sexy. People who like to slash characters don’t need much to go on, bless their hearts.

Yeah, immediately after posting, I thought of the whole cave sequence as a much better example of what you mean.

~It would do a disservice to bisexuals, adding to the stereotype that they are sexually *greedy* and it would not make sense at this point with what they’ve set up with S/U.~

I don’t know about doing a disservice to bisexuals. In fact, it might have struck a blow for sexual equality (although Roddenberry knew and we know the world’s not ready and these people had tickets to sell) but I agree, the present holders of the toybox have pretty much made their stand. Or maybe they’ll be brave and crazy and there will be an arc? (Not holding my breath.)

Well, besides possibly using the tired love triangle trope, which I hate *with a passion*, it would be throwing the interracial relationship already set up, under the bus.

Basically, pitting two issues that are concurrent against each other. With one being seen as the *more worthy* .

…This is unnecessary when:

#1 There are plenty of characters who can be gay or bi or otherwise that won’t do that.

#2 The subtext is consistent with TOS, at least to me so far. And everything indicates that will continue, as per Roddenberry’s vision. Epic bromance, will be epic.

#3 “Uh…Spock did give his dying words to Kirk in TWOK. And he frequently demonstrated his devotion, risking life and breaking rules for Kirk when nothing else so moved him. It was conceived and written and directed as a love relationship. Text, not subtext.”

That they loved each other is text. That that nature of that love is sexual or romantic is subtext.

It’s text for you, and that’s awesome. :)

686. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#671

I think Kirk just wanted to win as he does not believe in losing and he seemed surprised he was caught, he was willing to risk suspension to win. This is something we have seen throughout TOS and the movies also. How many times has he risked court martial or his career to win?

I think he also wanted to show Star Fleet that he’s smarter than them and was hurt when Spock brought up the death father argument (punch below belt). Perhaps he felt by completing the KM sim and winning it, he can pass in 3 years not 4 years, something he vowed he would do.

687. Spot the cat - January 25, 2010

S John Ross

you may think you are clever but all your comments about ‘dimwitted’ etc are just skating around your continued trolling and flaming and general rudeness, which you have been warned about repeatedly

688. Nata - January 25, 2010

@683. dmduncan
I think that’s a distinction without a difference. I read “katra” as “soul,” the essence of who Spock was, so he did in fact get Spock back
I think someone is rewatching TSFS too many times and too recently (meaning me), to let this lapse of canon knowledge slide. :)

YES there is a difference between getting someone back for a proper burial, and getting someone back to life.
Kirk risked everything so that Spock soul could R.I.P. on Vulcan. He got Spock back so that he could get him buried properly.
So yeah, there is a BIG difference, like in between life and death.
Also he risked it for McCoy, who couldn’t survive Spock’s katra.

Being able to get not only Spock’s soul for the burial, but also an unalive body, and being able to fuse them together was a totally unexpected bonus. A miracle. Kirk didn’t count on it.

But again why I’m retelling the movie. :)

689. Nata - January 25, 2010

but also an unalive body
I meand an alive body of course.

690. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

Star Trek held a balance between the internal ontology of the Star Trek universe and the ontology of Star-Trek-as-art in OUR universe, which the functional relationships between the major characters addresses: Spock = cold logic, McCoy = uncritical compassion, Kirk = the balance between.

TOS maintained that balance under its creator’s guidance.
I agree with Star Trek’s creator on that issue.
I’m not opposed to Bob and Alex changing things.
That is not one of the things I want to see changed.

And where did my comment go which already clearly expressed that? That’s annoying, because I didn’t keep a copy.

691. Archie - January 25, 2010

I have a question, is there any possibility or how can I submit a story line to the writers? I have been a life long Trekie would be a dream come true to have one of the professionals take a look at my rough concept. I have a story line and some renderings of what I would like to see.

692. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

688: “Being able to get not only Spock’s soul for the burial, but also an unalive body, and being able to fuse them together was a totally unexpected bonus. A miracle. Kirk didn’t count on it.”

This is the point I was making about Kirk’s attitude regarding the Kobyashi Maru somewhere back in the neighborhood of post #521,389.

That unexpected bonus is the sort of thing that Kirk’s whole position about what’s WRONG with the KM stands on. Just do it. See what happens. Unexpected things will unfold. Don’t tell me what a no win situation is when you don’t know what a no win situation is yourself.

And that’s why Kirk DOES beat a real world KM test, because he’s STILL practicing that same philosophy he had way back when he was a cadet, and it serves him yet again in TSFS, because if he had merely gave up like he was told to (thanks for nothing, Starfleet) he would have lost both McCoy AND Spock — Spock yet again!

So it IS that same attitude he had in “cheating” on the KM test which leads to saving McCoy AND Spock. Starfleet in both cases is telling him to accept their ruling, and in BOTH cases Kirk’s character of disobedience when he thinks he’s right and Starfleet is wrong wins unexpected rewards.

693. S. John Ross - January 25, 2010

#687: “you may think you are clever”

I tend to use “clever” for works or ideas, not so much for people (I consider it – perhaps ignorantly on my part – sort of a “Britishism” to call a person clever, I think mainly due to how often David Tennant made use of it during his run as the Doctor, and there I go making myself miss him all over again … sigh …)

“but all your comments about ‘dimwitted’ etc are just skating around your continued trolling and flaming and general rudeness, which you have been warned about repeatedly”

Only rudeness, of the three, and then not at all recently, unless you count passive-aggressive allusion (but we have ample reason, in every facet of our lives, never to do so).

694. S. John Ross - January 25, 2010

#692: “(thanks for nothing, Starfleet)”

It’d be interesting to see some exploring of the history of the short-door cliche from the fannish perspective, I think. Certainly, the notion that Starfleet is often a self-crippling bureaucracy is one that has strong roots in TOS, but from the film era onward we often see it expanded to the full-scale miniature door against which Kirk can stand as a giant. :/

695. P Technobabble - January 25, 2010

I think the plot of Kirk getting Spock’s body and his katra back to Vulcan is one of those things that will always be open to interpretation… much like all of this K M perspective.
In TSFS, once it was determined that Spock’s katra was “given” to McCoy, Kirk asked Sarek, “What must I do?” “You must bring them to Vulcan,” was Sarek’s answer. And then Kirk was off to Genesis with the stolen Enterprise to retrieve Spock’s body. But Sarek never made any mention of Spock’s body, nor was there ever any real indication why Kirk should get Spock’s body… especially after Sarek had already told Kirk, “Only his (Spock’s) body was in death. He asked you to bring everything that was not of the body… his katra.” (I’m paraphrasing). So, we, the audience, simply went along with Kirk going back to Genesis to retrieve Spock’s body, in spite of the fact that it was never clearly defined WHY Kirk had to retrieve Spock’s body. We make that presumption, I think… we go along with the ride. I loved that movie, but I was never really satisfied with why Kirk didn’t just bring McCoy to Vulcan to purge him of Spock’s katra… And, as others have mentioned, even when Kirk decided to bring Spock back to Vulcan, it was not with the intention that Spock would be “reborn.” Do we always need everything to be explained in every minute detail? I don’t think so, but some people do. Do we need to know precisely why Kirk felt the K M test was something to be joked about? Nah, I don’t think so… That clearly was not the main ingredient of the movie. Just my 2c, of course.

696. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#691

I just post my ideas here, but I think if you do not feel comfortable with that, I have seen other folks leave their email address hoping they get contacted by boborci etc.

697. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#695

When they killed Spock in TWOK, was it their intention to bring him back in part 3?

698. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

A long time ago the great American philosopher William James was walking in the woods in conversation with some of his fellows when an argument broke out between two of them over whether or not a squirrel they had been watching moving about a tree, in the squirrelly fashion squirrels have a way of moving in, had indeed gone “around” (as in circumnavigated) the tree.

The men approached James for a solution to the argument. James listened. Each presented their case. And to their astonishment James told them that both were right. It was not an argument, he said, about what the squirrel was doing, but of how they were each using the word “around.” And in the context of how each was using that word, both were right.

699. Nata - January 25, 2010

@692. dmduncan
So it IS that same attitude he had in “cheating” on the KM test which leads to saving McCoy AND Spock. Starfleet in both cases is telling him to accept their ruling,
Again, it’s not about Starfleet – it’s about life and death and things above us and beyound our control. About thinks divine, or eternal – what have you.

Kirk broke rules and fought for his live friend and for the memory of his dead one.
He grieved over the death of Spock and he accepted it. He didn’t fight to get him back.
And when he got him back – again he didn’t know if Spock would even recognize him, or be anything like his old self. Kirk incredulous smile in the end says it all. It’s someone who got an unexpected gift and is humbled by it and grateful for it. Not someone who thinks – gotcha, cheated my way out of no-win again.

And Kirk did lose his son on his way, and he didn’t get him back. And he lost his ship – which was as big love of his life as it comes. Also didn’t get it back – got a replacement which didn’t felt the same.

Yes, there is another valid point here about a frog beating milk into butter and not drawning, and about fighting till your last breath and not accepting defeat.
But it doesn’t negate the first meaning that there are losses which can’t be fixed, and there are things beyound your control which you have to live through and bear.
Again, Kirk accepts death of Spock. He understands the meaning of losing someone dear. That’s the lesson he gets.
Doesn’t mean it negates the core of his being which is fight to the end.
Both the meanings are there, and both are much bigger than Starfleet.

700. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

wow 700

701. TrekkieJan - January 25, 2010

@gingerly

Well, besides possibly using the tired love triangle trope, which I hate *with a passion*, it would be throwing the interracial relationship already set up, under the bus.

I think you mean interspecies. ^_~ But I see your point. I pretty much hate romance in my scifi. I want great ideas, not life’s ordinary little ups and downs, with spaceship window dressing. But I agree with you in that the thought of a love triangle makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

~Basically, pitting two issues that are concurrent against each other. With one being seen as the *more worthy* .

I do see your point here also. And while I would say neither is more worthy, one is obviously more palatable to a general audience at this stage of the game.

~…This is unnecessary when:

#1 There are plenty of characters who can be gay or bi or otherwise that won’t do that.

Doesn’t that make this hypothetical character then token?

~Epic bromance, will be epic.

Your epic bromance sounds a lot like my buddy flick. No offense. I know you didn’t write this and I am glad someone’s enjoying it. :)

~That they loved each other is text. That that nature of that love is sexual or romantic is subtext. It’s text for you, and that’s awesome. :)

Thanks. Well, it was unsaid, but imaginable without much of a stretch. Currently, it’s not even seeable. We’ll see. :) But like I said, not holding my breath. Still a fun movie.
Thanks for a nice dialog. <3

702. S. John Ross - January 25, 2010

#698:

On Usenet [IIRC], many years ago, I saw a flamewar devolve into a semantic argument. When many of those present observed that it had devolved into a semantic argument, it then _further_ devolved into a larger argument over the _definition_ of the term “semantic argument.”

The original argument was – I swear to whatever works – an argument on Miracle Whip vs. mayonnaise.

Really. :(

703. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

699: “It’s someone who got an unexpected gift and is humbled by it and grateful for it. Not someone who thinks – gotcha, cheated my way out of no-win again.”

I agree with you here, Nata, but that’s actually the vindication of my whole position regarding Kirk’s attitude that unexpected things happen as a reason why you don’t want to bottleneck people into the same forced scenarios, because we are not all the same and some may think of things others fail to, but the KM test is an intentional throwing of the cadets under the bus to get them to feel what it’s like to be squished by a bus.

Which is what Kirk got first time he took the test, and all the rest was him testing the institution. See, we don’t KNOW why he took the second test. He might have been planning to beat it then but things didn’t go as planned, so he needed to schedule a third test and that was the one that worked.

And if Starfleet didn’t furrow its collective brow at a cadet who was doing something no one else had tried before and didn’t wonder if maybe something suspicious was going on, then that too sort of helps to portray Starfleet as the rusty thing Pike was concerned about.

704. ‘Star Trek 2′ Will Focus on the Villain | CloneMovie Latest movie news - January 25, 2010

[...] th­e m­­ajority of­ wh­at Orci and K­urtz­m­­an had to s­ay­ a­t a­ W­G­A­ n­om­in­ees screen­in­g­ of [...]

705. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

@700: Congrats, #700. I knew it wasn’t going to be me. Anthony, prepare his plaque.

706. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#705

LOL Thanks!

707. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

@702: Hahaha! Sounds like a scene from The Big Bang Theory.

708. S. John Ross - January 25, 2010

#707: You’re absolutely right :)

709. dmduncan - January 25, 2010

Also, in TWOK when Kirk admits, “I don’t like to lose,” that feeling of being railroaded rather than losing by HIS OWN failure can conceivably be the reason why he decided to game the KM as a cheat — NOT because he doesn’t understand that he CAN’T lose or face loss, but because he wants the loss to be HIS, not some framed failure.

“I don’t like to lose” does not mean “I don’t know how to lose” or I can’t lose.” It doesn’t mean that Kirk is in la la land and can’t face reality.

710. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#709

Nice, this is how I feel when I would play say a video game on the hardest setting and realize the computer would cheat in order to compensate it’s short comings against me. Nobody likes to play in a crooked game, be it a simulation for personality tests or poker.

711. The Disinvited - January 25, 2010

624. dmduncan

I agree with your general point but I think you may have given short shrift in the process to the fact that in the past deaths have occurred in livewire exercises and cadets embarking on such are very much aware of it. It’s still not the same and yet, neither is it perfectly analogous to the KM.

Which brings to mind my big problem with the KM as introduced in the 80s: why do they let the cadets know beforehand that they are about to undergo a simulation? I mean they’ve got this marvelous transporter tech so why not punk them into believing it is all real by beaming them aboard and let the mission unfold? I recall one 60s episode where it took Captain Kirk most of the allotted hour before he realized he wasn’t on a “real” Enterprise.

712. gingerly - January 25, 2010

#701

Awesome!

Though, I think you mean interspecies. ^_~

Nope. I meant interracial. :)

Humans are all technically one race. Vulcans, though humanoid, are another.

one is obviously more palatable to a general audience at this stage of the game.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that. I would say attitudes for both are shifting. Thank God. :)

Something New and Brokeback Mountain both did relatively well. But both had to be independently produced.

Again, competing does neither any good.

And…

~…This is unnecessary when:

#1 There are plenty of characters who can be gay or bi or otherwise that won’t do that.

Doesn’t that make this hypothetical character then token?

Not if it’s a main cast-member who’s character is treated with equity.

That he/she/other is just there to be marked off and not given the treatment as an individual person; that is what makes a token, a token.

But yes, thanks, cool convo. :)

713. The Disinvited - January 25, 2010

655. spocksgal

The Animated Series solved all that. And before anyone tries to hoist the “It’s not canon” flag, I remind you that the 2009 movie was the second licensed “filmed” Trek. TAS was the first.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/features/specials/article/66895.html

714. ryanhuyton - January 25, 2010

Congratulations, Somethoughts! You may have just made history by being the first person to hit 600 and 700! Well done!

715. Anthony Pascale - January 25, 2010

actually we have had a few threads go over 1000, including some shatner stuff, first look at enterprise, orci comments on canon in past, etc.

this is the first over 500 for 2010

716. ryanhuyton - January 25, 2010

Anthony, maybe you should think about holding a contest where the person who hits the 1701 comment mark gets a prize. And the rule has to be a comment(s) relating to the topic that you decide i.e sequel news, STO, etc. Not just “Yay, I am 1701!” but something more substantive.

717. spocksgal - January 25, 2010

@713 TAS was never shown where I live in Europe, is it worth watching?

718. somethoughts - January 25, 2010

#714

Thanks!

#716

opps LOL ;)

719. TrekkieJan - January 25, 2010

@ 712. gingerly

~Humans are all technically one race. Vulcans, though humanoid, are another.~

Interesting! I had not heard that before. Memory Alpha calls the Vulcans a species. (To be a geek. *^^* ) When I went to get my DNA tested I was told race was not a scientific term, only a social one. (i.e. you could not be tested for it.)

~I would say attitudes for both are shifting. Thank God. :) ~

Yes, shifting attitudes for the better are good. And you’re right. A bad attitude is a bad attitude. You can’t really quantify or qualify it.

~Again, competing does neither any good.~

No, it doesn’t. And in this case, I can’t compete. I was just complaining. *laughing at my own sour grapes posts* Sorry. *^^*

And trying to defend poor maligned James Kirk, who has the worst undeserved fanon reputation in the history of fandom. Seriously!

In the case of IX, my side lost the ship war before I knew it had begun. (And it’s my first ship war, too. I rather thought Kate and Jack were nice together, but not enough to argue with anyone over it.)

~Doesn’t that make this hypothetical character then token?

Not if it’s a main cast-member who’s character is treated with equity.~

And that character has a love affair with Kirk? *laughing* (This is me, still not holding my breath.) Anyway, random hook-ups in Trek would be less appealing (to me) than romance.

I think it would be hard to have a gay/bi main character in the sequel. For one thing, it would be so out of nowhere (unless it was Kirk and Spock. I’m not competing. Just saying.) For another, what would they do? Have Sulu stand up on the helm and yell, “I love men!” (I don’t mean to pick on poor Sulu.) But anything they did at this point would feel sort of arbitrary and pandering, tacked awkwardly onto the action and plot. OTOH, if anyone could do it, Bob and Alex could. (I’m not saying they should or will.)

Anyway, at this point it’s in their hands. We trust them to be cool and dig deep.

~But yes, thanks, cool convo. :) ~

Yes, it’s lovely talking to someone so eloquent, intelligent, and well, gentle.

Oh, I did mean to ask! I literally possess not one pair of slash glasses in my whole house. (Except that one old battered K/S pair, and I think I’d better put them away, in case they’re worth something some day. They’re looking a little fragile.) I saw no subtext of any kind in IX. What did I miss in the cave scene? O_o
(And how do you get those nice italics…? [i] like this..? [/i] )

720. Red Skirt - January 25, 2010

711. The Disinvited “why do they let the cadets know beforehand that they are about to undergo a simulation? I mean they’ve got this marvelous transporter tech so why not punk them into believing it is all real by beaming them aboard and let the mission unfold?”

I brought this up earlier as well. I’ve seen this scenario a number of times in numerous TV episodes where the new trainees were tested without their knowledge. It makes no sense that there would be a big observation window in the room to further mitigate the illusion.

That’s why I say the whole thing is ridiculous as literally stated by Spock that the intent is to experience “fear in the face of certain death”. However, because it is stated like this: “experience fear, fear in the face of certain death, to accept that fear and maintain control of oneself and ones crew”, I take it to mean “fear in the face of certain death” is poetic. The point is to face fear: fear of doing the right thing since the students don’t know the purpose: which is to evaluate how they behave under pressure.

But this is a pointless argument. Kirk is a special case. At least in the Prime universe we know for a fact that KM was not scrapped and Kirk endorsed it. While we don’t know what happened to KM in the alternate universe, it is highly unlikely that Kirk proved anything of the kind to Starfleet that the test was worthless, mainly because not every cadet is Kirk and standardized evaluation tests serve a purpose as part of an overall assessment of an “average” individuals abilities.

This is certainly a more valid perspective than, one of the most logical beings in the universe devised a test to subject cadets to “fear in the face of death” with no pretense whatsoever that a cadet was actually in any real danger.

721. mckena - January 25, 2010

I love, love, love Spock/Uhura, honestly that’s why I kept going back to watch Star Trek over and over again. I don’t think it downgrades Uhura’s character *at all*, a BAMF woman can’t choose a man without losing her kick ass-ness? Pfft, whatever.
And Orci, if you see this, please please please PLEASE no love triangle. Spock and Uhura seriously have something epic- don’t cheapen it!
*I* thought it was handled in this movie wonderfully.
Only two years to go ’til the sequel!

722. penny - January 25, 2010

There are some interesting comments about what should happen in the next movie here, but i thinkpeople should keep in mind that this is a two our movie, not a weekly series..
The Spock/Uhura realtionship is now established. The Kirk/Uhura flirtation has been established. Don’t chicken out now writers.

Now give us a kickass bad-guy. Some really amazing special effects and a Kirk/Uhura/Spock triad taking care of business and it will work. Pine/Saldana/Quinto can handle it. This is not our parents ST, they shouldn’t try to back track now.

Besides this was the first ST script to get a WAG nomination wasn’t it? Doesn’t that kind of tell you something.

723. Red Skirt - January 25, 2010

#722, penny there is definite merit in that Star Trek was nominated by the WGA. However, the WGA changed their submissions policies this year and less than half the nominees of past years were able to be considered. Some of the excluded films were “District 9,” “An Education,” “Fantastic Mr. Fox,” “In the Loop,” “Inglourious Basterds,” “The Road,” “A Single Man” and “Up.” Obviously, these films are getting a lot of attention outside of the WGA. So as you can see, the fact that this is the first Star Trek film to get a WGA nomination is not necessarily proof of anything except this particular Star Trek film was in the right place at the right time. Had the WGA not changed their eligibility rules this year, would Star Trek have still been nominated in place of some of the ineligible brilliantly adapted screenplays? I’m not so sure it would have been.

724. gingerly - January 25, 2010

#723

Had the WGA not changed their eligibility rules this year, would Star Trek have still been nominated in place of some of the ineligible brilliantly adapted screenplays? I’m not so sure it would have been.

And if the movie had been of low quality? You could be certain it certainly would not have been.

Conditions and exclusions contribute to *all* nominations, in all film award ceremonies.

Every reward, every good nomination is usually a result of a combination of hard work, final quality, and luck.

You just illustrated why this situation is no different.

Penny’s point still stands.

725. Red Skirt - January 25, 2010

#724, her point seems to be that this film’s script is better than any other Star Trek script simply because it was nominated by the WGA. Never mind that the WGA doesn’t just nominate film, but TV scripts as well and “our parents” Star Trek most certainly has been nominated by the WGA before. My point is, one has nothing to do with the other, especially when you consider how those scripts are chosen. From your list, “luck” seems to be the only factor in my opinion separating Star Trek of the past with the present one, as far as the WGA nominations are concerned. And you left out politics.

726. gingerly - January 25, 2010

#725

her point seems to be that this film’s script is better than any other Star Trek script simply because it was nominated by the WGA….

Hmm, I’m not seeing that here:

This is not our parents ST, they shouldn’t try to back track now.

Besides this was the first ST script to get a WAG nomination wasn’t it? Doesn’t that kind of tell you something.

…I’m just seeing that it was good enough to be nominated and so they must be doing something right.

So, they should stay the course. I’m not seeing anything about best ever…

But maybe, I’m missing something.

727. captain_neill - January 26, 2010

717

TAS is definitely worth the watch, it had some great stories and writers were among the ones who had worked on the origianl series.

728. S. John Ross - January 26, 2010

#726: “…I’m just seeing that it was good enough to be nominated and so they must be doing something right. ”

They did. Using the safest possible techniques, they constructed a crowd-pleasing tie-in product which made lots of money.

729. Star Trek Writers Talk About the Sequel : HeyUGuys – UK Movie Blog - January 26, 2010

[...] rehired to write the inevitable sequel and they recently held a Q&A at the WGA (reported by TrekMovie) and dropped a few clues as to what we can all expect from Star Trek [...]

730. Red Skirt - January 26, 2010

#726, I can definitely see her comments that way, you are missing nothing as her meaning has to be inferred regardless. I think my perception was colored by the fact that I knew Star Trek scripts had been nominated and indeed won WGA awards in the past. However, I still think it is a weak correlation since the way you see it as well suggests that the nominations and wins that the 60s series received and the nominations The Next Generation received, are also “proof” for her that the franchise should stay that particular course, which is completely different than the current one. I maintain the WGA nomination in of itself is proof of nothing of the kind, rather it is a snapshot of the best_and luckiest_work as compared to its competition in all genres at the time, not necessarily an endorsement of specific plot developments or artistic direction for adapting a franchise. By this logic, box office receipts equal quality. WIthout any knowledge of exactly what aspects people are responding to, it is foolish to second guess them, and I think often leads Hollywood down a rabbit hole attempting to repeat the same successful formula. Stay the course? No, push the envelope!

731. The Disinvited - January 26, 2010

717

I believe TAS was the first and only Trek to win an Emmy Award for the show itself as opposed to technical awards.

Don’t go into it with modern animation acclimated eyes.

730

I agree. There’s nothing unusual about Trek having nominations and awards.

732. S. John Ross - January 26, 2010

#730: “Stay the course? No, push the envelope!”

Amen, sister. Amen.

Now if only we can convince the creative crew.

733. Trekgirl-V - January 26, 2010

I had to put my two cents in. Writers please don’t end the S/U relationship.
There are much more who loved it than the haters on this board. You may want to break them up for a little bit. So that their story does not get stale, but they should come back together. They should be the next Princess Lei/Hans Solo sci-fi couple. I think there will be several movies to come. Kirk is supposed to be a ladies man. His true love is his ship. S/U may have surprised some at first, but it worked. Don’t end it.

734. gingerly - January 26, 2010

#730

And I just realized I’ve been involved in one of those petty nitpicky nerd arguments that really mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. :)

Ugh.

We all want the best Trek. And I think we mostly think this past Trek was awesome. :)

As for this?:

“Stay the course? No, push the envelope!”

Hell, yes.

735. Red Skirt - January 26, 2010

#734 – agreed. ;-)

My boyfriend is a writer, so I tend to get defensive about WGA stuff. My apologies as well. (And don’t feel bad, I get pulled into them all the time without realizing it.)

736. Hateya - January 28, 2010

To Orci and Alex,

I came here prepared to give Spock/Uhura a nod. Before I do, I must give you guys tremendous credit for a job well done because ten minutes of S/U was enough to set fandom spinning. I mean it… you guys are absolute GENIUSES!!!

Look. This is the reality. As long as these characters are under your pen, you are responsible for them, good, bad or ugly. They are yours. You’ve set Spock on this path with Uhura and you absolutely cannot back down from it.

Just because a sentient being is striving to control and/or suppress his emotions, does not automatically mean he does not need a connection. Spock having a connection with Uhura does not mean he no longer has internal conflict. It.does.not.work.that.way.

It’s really easy for someone who has never even remotely walked in Spock’s shoes to claim otherwise. A majority of people posting here have no idea what it means to be torn between two “races” or between two strikingly different cultures. Love makes it slightly easier to be caught between two worlds, but it absolutely does not end the conflict. Of

Not all S/U fans are here because we want to see an interracial relationship. Many of us are on board this ship because we want to see Spock HAPPY. I single him out because he’s the co-protagonist.

We want him to feel love. We want him to have a safe haven… a place to go when all hell breaks loose and guys… we want the hell to break loose often. Blow up something else big, please!!!! Hey, I’m a Star Wars fan, too. ;D

We don’t expect Spock’s personal struggle to end. His relationship with Uhura should logically make life far more complex considering they are now beyond the safety of Starfleet Academy grounds. Everything is different now. He’s no longer her instructor or academic supervisor, he’s now the FIRST OFFICER.

Whether unintentional or not, I believe we’ve already seen where Spock’s emotions nearly got Earth destroyed. Why did he refuse to go after Nero? Because it was illogical. Yes, of course, it was for the reasons he stated. There’s also another way to look at it. Uhura and Sarek were on board the Enterprise. Spock’s instincts as a sentient being would have been to protect his father and the woman he loved at all cost.

Love is illogical. It absolutely doesn’t make sense. If it did, it wouldn’t be love.

Don’t run away from the conflict Spock and Uhura’s relationship will generate Bob and Alex. Face it!

I’m perfectly okay if you beat them black and blue as long as they still love each other in the end. Bring on nasty aliens to kidnap one of them. Bring on Pon Farr. Bring in T’Pring. Heck, I liked T’Pring for having the audacity to *not* want Spock in the TOS. Instead, she wanted some beefed up guy who wanted to stay home and do her bidding.

As for Nyota Uhura, please keep in mind that she is *not* an American. She is listed as an East African woman and it would be nice to hone in on her origins. For one thing, it would be great if she had parents (with names), siblings, a definite region of origin. If it’s Kenya, then say so. Just mention these things somewhere please.

Give Uhura conflict, too. Make her more sympathetic towards Spock because she understands what it’s like to be torn between two cultures. Or switch it around. Her origins could actually generate the conflict between them. Just because these two people seem safe and secure on the outside doesn’t mean they are.

In the end, guys, it’s up to you. You make the decisions and you absolutely can’t sit around and worry about what fans will say. Look at these comments. The same people are posting over and over again. They (including me) don’t represent fandom as a whole.

You must do what is best for the characters *you* have created. They’re YOURS.

737. Trek Lady - January 28, 2010

“Many of us are on board this ship because we want to see Spock HAPPY. ”

I kind of thought he was happy in TOS – with Jim Kirk as his friend, or at least as “happy” as a Vulcan can be… content maybe? LOL!

And no, they didn’t “create” the characters… they borrowed them and revised them, but they didn’t “create” them.

738. Hateya - January 28, 2010

@Trek Lady,

I am absolutely certain Bob and Alex will understand what I mean by “create.” If they don’t, then I’ll be forced to question their credentials as writers. As I am fairly certain they’ll get it, the statement stands.

I have no qualms about Spock having Jim Kirk as a friend. Having Jim as a friend should not exclude Uhura as Spock’s chosen mate.

I also wish for Sulu, Chekov, McCoy, Scotty, Madeline, Gaila, Hannity, Cupcake, and a slew of Vulcans to be Spock’s friends, too.

739. dmduncan - January 29, 2010

736: “Not all S/U fans are here because we want to see an interracial relationship. Many of us are on board this ship because we want to see Spock HAPPY. I single him out because he’s the co-protagonist.”

Hateya, but why do you assume the only way for Spock to be happy is through romantic love?

On the contrary, Leonard Nimoy established the character’s equilibrium in a place where he was happy without romantic love, and even found suggestions that he was human “insulting.”

Let him be an alien. Let his ways be different to the point where we may have a hard time understanding them and yet let us see him satisfied, “happy” if you will, to be exactly the way he is.

That’s the meaning of IDIC.

Yet so many women keep wanting Spock to be just another romantic interest in a movie to the loss of his unique character. That’s the Midas Touch. I mean really, if they made Spock into this guy who has no trouble expressing his affection in public, why would he have trouble expressing other emotions in public as well? And he wasn’t particularly worked up on the transporter pad when he started making out with Uhura. It was very casual. So why CAN’T he laugh at a good joke too? Why CAN’T he cry when he feels hurt? Laughter expresses important emotions as well, so why can he only express affection and not other emotions? So that seems contrived to me, whereas those questions are answered when reflecting on Nimoy’s portrayal of the character. And the answer is that he CAN feel emotions, BUT —

Unless there are extraordinary circumstances (This Side of Paradise, Naked Time, etc.) which prevent him from doing so, then there is a disconnect between what Spock feels and what he does about it, very much like what a Zen master experiences, following his thoughts without reacting to them the way other people might, and this is the intrinsic character of the Vulcan race which Spock also possesses despite being half human.

Clearly, if Spock expresses the full range of human emotion that the human characters do, then there is literally no difference between him and the human characters besides a bowl cut, pointy ears, and the writer’s say so.

So I think the idea that we should see Spock and Uhura together so Spock can be “happy” sends the wrong message.

740. dmduncan - January 29, 2010

733: “Kirk is supposed to be a ladies man. His true love is his ship.”

Maybe we’ll get a love scene between Kirk in a spacesuit and the Enterprise, who’s a two timing byotch, seeing Scotty on the side.

741. dmduncan - January 29, 2010

But if you ARE going to give Kirk a love interest, a first love from his youth, perhaps, then I would like to NOT see Carol Marcus be that person.

How about a Native American actress/character in that role? New universe, remember? It’s not like Indians are over represented in film and TV, you know? And everyone knows the cultural makeup of the bridge in the 60′s was NOT accidental, so why not do more of the same now?

742. Josie010 - January 29, 2010

Curious! Why are people putting Prime Spock’s experiences on NuSpock? The writers have told us that this is an ALTERNATE universe, a RE-BOOT (hence: different), and someone even told us that this is not our father’s Star Trek! What is it about those VERY CLEAR statements (that denotes that things are going to be “totally different” ), are people not understanding? Prime Spock still has his experiences in “his’ universe. Just pop in your old TOS eps. and dvds; and there you go! NuSpock should be left “out” of the debate about what he would and wouldn’t do concerning his romantic interest as it relates to Prime Spock’s experiences in TOS. NuSpock is in a loving relationship with Uhura which is a MAJOR upgrade to his character arc in my opinion (so much can be fleshed out about his internal conflicts with this particular relationship alone). It’s my position that the old formula of TOS will not work for the new audience of today. The recycling of the antiquated trio and focus of K/S/B (regulating Uhura, Checkov, Sulu, and Scotty), to background noise “will not” work! What’s the point of rebooting the series if you’re just going to stick to what worked before? The new stuff is what’s interesting! The K/S friendship can be “one’ focus point “without” sacrifice to other characters (especially Uhura). Uhura/Spock “does not” take away from Kirk/Spock. There are just some things that Kirk can’t do for Spock that I’m sure Uhura is taking care beautifully!

To Orci and Kurtzman:

I commend you for taking the risk regarding the Spock/Uhura relationship! In my opinion, you have not only created something epic; you have given us the hottest couple to ever grace the sci-fi screen! :) The S/U relationship is a tremendous improvement to one anothers character arcs! I really like the different takes on each character, and I hope you will not abandon a very important aspect of what you’ve done to appease a certain audience. It is my hope that you will consider allowing S/U to continue for the duration of the movies lifetime. There is NOTHING wrong with having Spock have a best friend (and a bondmate), at the same time. As long as the relationship is treated with respect and regulated to beautiful subtlety (please no love triangle); I’m all for it!

Also, It seems that that some on this board is of the opinion that Spock is “totally’ happy by being friends with Kirk alone? Kirk is one bad dude if he can affect Spock’s “total happiness” to the point where Spock doesn’t need anything else! This is a completely incorrect assessment of his character as professed by Prime Spock himself in “All Our Yesterday’s” right before the show was canceled.

Dialogue:

ZARABETH: It’s not that I wish to return. This is my time now. I’ve had to face that. But it has been lonely here. Do you know what it’s like to be alone? Really alone?

SPOCK: Yes. I know what it is like.

ZARABETH: Yes. He gave me weapons, a shelter, food. Everything I needed to live except companionship. He did not want it said that he had me killed. But to send me here alone, if that is not death, what is? A very inventive mind, that man.

SPOCK: But insensitive, to send such a beautiful woman into exile.

The cold must’ve affected me more than I realised. Please pay no attention. I’m not myself. I’m behaving disgracefully.

I have eaten animal flesh and I have enjoyed it. What is wrong with me? I tell you you’re beautiful. But you are beautiful. Is it so wrong to tell you so?

ZARABETH: I have longed to hear you say it.
(They kiss, then he picks her up and smiles broadly)

SPOCK: You are beautiful. More beautiful than any dream of beauty I’ve ever known.
(He lays her down and ….

See. Spock is lonely regardless of his “happy friendship” with Kirk! Again, Kirk “cannot” give Spock some things he needs. Even TOS Spock understood that.

Rock on Spock/Uhura! :)

743. dmduncan - January 29, 2010

742: “Curious! Why are people putting Prime Spock’s experiences on NuSpock? The writers have told us that this is an ALTERNATE universe, a RE-BOOT (hence: different), and someone even told us that this is not our father’s Star Trek! What is it about those VERY CLEAR statements (that denotes that things are going to be “totally different” ), are people not understanding?”

It should hardly require pointing out but that invested emotions make the obvious less than noticeable, that were ST.09 literally “totally different” except for, I presume, the title “Star Trek,” then literally nothing would be recognizable between the original series and the rebooted franchise.

That all seven main characters, the premise of the show, the design of most of the sets, the boldly colored uniforms, and other things which I am forgetting to mention, all resemble those from TOS demonstrates that the reboot is not “totally new.”

The question therefore is not whether to preserve, but what to preserve and what not to preserve, and different people come down on different sides of the same question.

Hardly surprising, since Star Trek fans are not a monolith and not all even find the same things attractive within the franchise.

744. gingerly - January 29, 2010

@dmduncan

Let him be an alien.

I’m having trouble understanding why you think having a relationship (something many Vulcans had to do in order to reach a population of billions) magically changes him into a human.

745. dmduncan - January 29, 2010

@744: No magic about it. It doesn’t. Relationships are unavoidable. You have to have them if you exist. My issue is with the sort of relationship the women on this site have been quite vocal about wanting to see Spock have.

An emotional one. Hateya is right when she says that love is not logical. So you have to change Spock’s equilibrium from where Leonard Nimoy established it. You can point to all the episodes like All Our Yesterdays, Naked Time, This Side of Paradise, and it’s not going to change anything because as I’ve said, all those instances involved Spock compromised by extraordinary circumstances.

“I’m having trouble understanding why you think having a relationship (something many Vulcans had to do in order to reach a population of billions) magically changes him into a human.”

Okay, give Spock a full blown romance with Uhura. What exactly makes him alien then? Pointed ears? And what’s worse, what are the logical grounds for preventing him from expressing every other emotion humans have?

After all, if Spock and Uhura can play dueling tongues in public, why can’t he be the riot of the bridge with things like “A Vulcan, a Romulan, and a Klingon walk into a bar…” Why not smile? Tell jokes?

If you follow TOS there’s an answer to that, but if they make him what you want him to be there’s not. It’s just a contrivance, because that’s how the writers are making him. There’s no skeletal structure underneath his actions that controls his behavior.

There’s also lots of territory to explore here about Vulcans. How about using some imagination? What if Vulcans find sex distasteful and reproduce by artificial womb? Suddenly, that their numbers are down to 10,000 isn’t as problematic. They can start cranking out babies on their new home world as they require and without making every Vulcan woman barefoot and pregnant for the next 100 years.

The Vulcans are logical. They are also brilliant scientists. What would they do? How would they react?

How about following some of the actual consequences of making certain suppositions instead of oohing and aahing about how wonderful this or that would be? Extrapolate. When you extrapolate you don’t have to invent every single detail, because much of the work is done by following how the variables will unfold in time according to certain principles. In fact, contrivance may be defined as what happens when a writer thwarts the process to force an outcome he personally wants.

746. dmduncan - January 29, 2010

Also, (and this is not an argumentum ad Eugene-ium (fallacious appeal to Roddenberry)), but considering one of Roddenberry’s reasons for creating the Vulcans and the character of Spock can help to clarify what that “soul” of Star Trek is that Bob has expressed interest in preserving and carrying forward.

Which is that Roddenberry’s own life was so full of emotional turmoil that he wanted a character that was largely free of the sorts of problems that humans experienced because he thought it would be nice for a change, to vicariously experience through Spock something he felt his own life lacked.

Which again is a good way to reflect the human condition back to humans. But if Spock acts the same way then there is no mirror. There’s no contrast that points out the difference.

And “All Our Yesterdays” considered, Spock’s place of balance is his logical Vulcan self which acts as counterpoint (musical sense) to the humans around him.

Finally, I made the point earlier that there’s a balance that TOS kept between the imagined ontology of the Star Trek universe and the function of Star Trek as art in reflecting ourselves back to us. If you focus strictly on the ontological angle Star Trek soon starts to look like an inconsistent mess that strains credibility: Can Vulcans with GREEN blood and organs in different places produce viable offspring with humans (a way out perhaps if Vulcans DO reproduce by artificial means whereby those problems can be solved). But these questions are less important when you see Star Trek as turning metaphors into characters without making them seem that way, which then become the explanation for those otherwise unintelligible things. And this is probably the hardest balance to maintain because it’s the least obvious.

I am merely trying to point it out in the hopes that it will not be forgotten.

If Bob belongs to the Supreme Court of Star Trek then I am merely presenting a case before the court. Ultimately the decision rests with the judges.

747. Hateya - January 29, 2010

To Mr. Orci and Kurtzman,

Again, I want more Uhura/SPock because loving someone does.not.change.who.or.what.you.are even if you make compromises. Love requires compromise.

I have no desire for Spock to become more human, whatever that means. I desire him to be logical, emotionally-controlled and disciplined a majority of the time. This is the way of life he has chosen.

Nonetheless, there is a place for love, too. While it is true that Catholic priests don’t get married, priests in other faiths do. I added this just because for some weird reason this point comes up… although Spock is not a religious leader.

There are times when all sentient beings need something or someone else, namely a mate. Furthermore, having a mate does not mean one can’t have a friend or even a bromance.

Moving along because I’ll be pro-Uhura/Spock 24/7/31/52/365 and nothing will change that.

So far, I’ve requested 1) more Uhura/Spock; 2) making Vulcans appear more homogeneous and less xenophobic and now I’m moving on to 3) More Pon Farr.

Pon Farr! Pon Farr! Pon Farr!

Wait. I’m not seeking SexTrek. That’s what fan fiction is for. Instead, I wish to delve deeper into this biological imperative now that the PLANET Vulcan is GONE! You guys just didn’t take out a city or a continent, you obliterated the entire world.

How will Vulcans in general be affected by Pon Farr now? Spock is obviously in a more intriguing situation as well. I can think of four distinctively different scenarios.

And yes, Kirk can still be Spock’s friend in the process. He can risk his career and everything. Wait… been there… done that.

And when you write Uhura, Spock and Pon Farr, please keep in mind that she is African, seemingly East African… Please do not present her as a fool where this issue is concerned. Fanfiction has this covered. :D

Oh and about endangered species… you’ve created a HUGE problem for the Vulcans. Some obvious. Others not so much. Smallpox infected blankets are looking even more ominous now.

Thank you for your time gentlemen.

Hateya
A Uhura/Spock fan

748. Hateya - January 30, 2010

@dmduncan

I think I understand why we might have a communications gap. When I went into the theater, I expected to see Orci, Kurtzman and JJ’s vision of Star Trek. I didn’t go in there seeking Gene Roddenberry’s per verbatim. I mean with JJ on board, I basically expected to see something BIG blow up! He did not disappoint.

Where you’re seeing ONE Spock, I’m seeing TWO. By two, I mean two different guys, two different realities. My opinions regarding NuSpock are based on his existence ALONE.

I’m not revising SpockPrime’s life in my mind. When I watch TOS, I’m watching TOS. When I watch the 2009 movie, I’m watching the movie. With me, the two don’t actually cross paths beyond the basic themes.

If I just wanted TOS Trek, I would just watched TOS. It’s like going to a live concert and expecting the music to sound like the CD. Do.Not.Want.

I love the idea of “What if Spock and the others hooked up 8 years or so earlier and their destinies changed.”

NuSpock is NuSpock. SpockPrime is SpockPrime. NuTrek is the one where the entire planet Vulcan gets blown to smithereens and people care more about Uhura/Spock vs. Spock/Kirk than they do about the loss of 6 billion sentient beings. I’m guilty.

You know, I’ve never advocated destroying NuSpock and Kirk’s friendship and replacing it with NuUhura/NuSpock. I see no logical reason why NuSpock simply can’t have both relationships.

Rock on Uhura/Spock!!!

749. Trek Lady - January 30, 2010

“In my opinion, you have not only created something epic; you have given us the hottest couple to ever grace the sci-fi screen! :) ”

Yeah…and some of us are worried that THIS is where a lot of the cheerleading is coming from. Sorry, but I don’t find this argument sufficient reason to make such major shifts in “what made TOS work.” TOS has been epic and popular for over 40 years! Obviously, they got something RIGHT! I wonder if all these avid S/U fans are still going to be following the pairing 40 years from now… or will they latch on the the next “hot couple”?

Time will tell.

750. Josie010 - January 30, 2010

“Yeah…and some of us are worried that THIS is where a lot of the cheerleading is coming from”

Your commentary exude vexation to a statement that was made in a convivial sense. Since we are not privy to the opinions of every individual who accept and support the Spock/Uhura relationship, using the words a lot, many, most, etc. would be counterfactual. The fact that I used the word “epic” in my relation to the S/U connection is an alert to the fact that there is a position that I hold about the pairing that transcends just thinking they are “hot”.

“Sorry, but I don’t find this argument sufficient reason to make such major shifts in “what made TOS work”

No apology necessary when relating the exchange of opinions/ideas. The major shifts obviously worked since the project has been green-lighted for continuation (sufficient reasons or not).

“TOS has been epic and popular for over 40 years! Obviously, they got something RIGHT

Who made the conjecture that they did something wrong? ST is a great universe with many interesting (and not so interesting), spin-offs. But at the end of the day the ST franchise is in the business of making money. They obviously recognized that what appeased audiences in the time of TOS is not going to work for the audience of today, and that they need new ST fans to keep the franchise viable. They recognized that somethings had to be tweaked and updated if this dying franchise was to be resurrected from it’s long unfortunate slumber. Have they been successful? Absolutely! So I recognize that the ST:2009 crew also got it RIGHT! It’s the same characters in two different universes, having two different experiences. Some of us are finding what the new ST universe have shown us to be incredulous to TOS even though we’ve been told that this is an alternate reality.

“I wonder if all these avid S/U fans are still going to be following the pairing 40 years from now… or will they latch on the the next “hot couple”?

Why not? If the relationship is handled with the respect and consideration it deserves ( and is not regulated to a fleeting irrelevant moment), I can see them having the staying power that will propel them towards an endearing light for all time.

Time will tell? Indeed!

Spock/Nyota = greatness!

751. dmduncan - January 30, 2010

748: “I think I understand why we might have a communications gap. When I went into the theater, I expected to see Orci, Kurtzman and JJ’s vision of Star Trek. I didn’t go in there seeking Gene Roddenberry’s per verbatim.”

Hi Hateya. Actually, I didn’t expect a carbon copy either. If you look closely at what I’ve said you’ll see that the issue for both myself and the writers, as they’ve mentioned on previous occasions, was to keep the “soul” of Star Trek intact.

And I think we don’t all agree on what that soul is. So I’ve laid out a careful analysis that has many different and subtle points.

Some fans get upset that the Enterprise looks different or that the engineering set is a brewery, or that the timing of certain events does not match other plot points, and I don’t want to belittle those objections, but they are not what’s important to me.

What’s important to me is the philosophical structure of Star Trek, because that is one of the few parts of it that is timeless. Good ideas do not grow old. They do not collect dust or cobwebs. They do not look dated like spaceships from 1930′s pulp SF cover art.

Nor do I object to romance in the movies or, in principle, in Star Trek — not even for Spock! It’s been done before with Spock in TOS. My objection is an anticipatory one for the future, and my case is made to preempt actually falling into the trap of radically altering a character that is important to keep the same to maintain the unique philosophical perspective that Star Trek alone has managed to portray.

You see? My objection is not to changing things in Star Trek, but to changing THIS particular thing.

The disconnect is coming from those who see Star Trek as fantasy fulfillment rather than seeing Star Trek as popular art that shows us ourselves. Star Trek is both things, actually, but I’ve already tried to point out that it’s important to keep a balance between those two functions so that one does not overwhelm the other and it then becomes only one thing.

If it becomes mere fantasy fulfillment then you can really object that the current patriarchs have let some of the intelligence and subtlety of (TOS) Star Trek evaporate under their watch.

But arguing now from the imagined ontology of the Star Trek universe, Spock was always more in danger of losing control of his emotions because he was half human. Friendship with Kirk and McCoy makes more sense because it’s less challenging to his sense of identity because the same emotions from friendship with those two do not compare with the emotions a human has towards a romantic love interest the power of which, as most of us probably know, can overwhelm us emotionally.

Spock is not full Vulcan, so his identity as Vulcan is under more pressure, which a romantic relationship can only serve to threaten even more, thus moving his place of equilibrium to where he is basically a Romulan or pointy eared human.

My theory is that women find his dispassionate logic attractive, which then leads to fantasy fulfillment, identifying with the woman in Spock’s life. This then leads to the “Midas Touch,” wherein by having Spock in the way that they want him, in a passionate full blown romantic affair, a woman would destroy the very thing in him they find most appealing.

Spock would then be a radical departure from what Nimoy and Roddenberry created, and the conceptual structure underlying Star Trek would be changed in a way that makes it less intelligent — and all for an element which one can find in any chick flik in the queue.

I don’t see how anyone can view that as an improvement over TOS’s accomplishments.

752. dmduncan - January 30, 2010

And, also from the ontological perspective, it does no good to point out that Vulcans have relationships and reproduce. The culture of Vulcan is unwritten, and the trials an earth woman must endure living in such an alien culture are unexplained.

The disconnect between emotion and ACTION Vulcans must experience suggests certain inferences about their culture regarding how they reproduce.

Maybe they do so by artificial womb and shun sexual contact altogether. The pro Spock/Uhura faction would probably not find this very attractive.

Another possibility is that they reproduce in the conventional way but that the emotion-action disconnect makes sex very workmanlike and unexpressive between Vulcans. They do it NOT because they want to feel it the way humans do but because it is necessary to produce new offspring; after the important moment passes, they may simply dismount, put on their clothes, and go about their business. Again, not an ideal situation for most earth girls who want a Vulcan mate.

So there’s ways where romance with Spock might SEEM like a good idea but in practice turns out not to be very satisfying for MOST earth women at all.

At the very least, what I am mapping out above has the advantage of being imaginative and not typical human behavior in Vulcan garb and prosthetic appliances.

That too is what good SF is supposed to do.

From the artistic angle, Sarek and Amanda are merely a device to get a half human, half Vulcan character with conflicts to suppress so that we have more potential for Spock to encounter extraordinary circumstances that briefly imbalances him.

And that provides the advantage of being dramatically useful at times, but without permanently altering his function as counterpoint to the humans on the bridge and in the audience.

Again, “briefly” is the key word.

753. Hateya - January 30, 2010

“So there’s ways where romance with Spock might SEEM like a good idea but in practice turns out not to be very satisfying for MOST earth women at all.”

Then we have an agreement of sorts. This type of romance might not be very satisfying for some women raised in certain environments. However, this planet hosts a variety of women who exist within situations clearly beyond your intellectual experiences. The women you know and the women on your television do not represent all of us with a uterus. It’s not even close.

Uhura is a particular woman in a particular situation. The writers, with Zoe Saldana’s brilliance, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Uhura understood the limitations of their relationship. She absolutely knew how far she go with him. Understanding your partner is fundamental in a relationship. Obviously, prior to the movie, they’d already reached a consensus regarding the relationship boundaries.

You’re acting as if she spread her legs on the transporter pad and forced him to take her where all could see. Until that moment, their intimacy had been confined to the two of them and *I* expect it to continue this way in the future. A bulk of pro U/S fans (those who have written publicly) do not wish this relationship to be in the foreground. We get it.

If the relationship is pushed as a pivotal plot point, *we* expect it to be meaningful to the piece as a whole as it did in the 2009 movie.

In saving the most important issue for last – I’m absolutely appalled by your complete and utter disrespect for MOST women by implying that we are indulging in some sort of fantasy where Spock is concerned. For this reason alone, we shall speak no further because I am *not* Vulcan and I have no desire to showcase my temper in a public forum.

My stoic emotionally controlled logical husband would certainly think less of me if I did.

Uhura/Spock fans unite!!!

754. Hateya - January 30, 2010

I was remiss:

Uhura + Spock = EPIC GREATNESS and I intend to be here for the next 40 years cheering it on!!!

755. dmduncan - January 30, 2010

753: “The women you know and the women on your television do not represent all of us with a uterus. It’s not even close.”

Fair point, but it also applies to Spock who’s an alien, and yet you are arguing that he should be the sort of man in relation to Uhura that YOU want him to be, when he’s not even a (hu)man at all!

“A bulk of pro U/S fans (those who have written publicly) do not wish this relationship to be in the foreground. We get it.”

Oh I get that loud and clear. Which is why I’m arguing against it. I want the opposite. I have nothing against chick fliks. I just don’t want to see some weird crossover involving Star Trek.

“In saving the most important issue for last – I’m absolutely appalled by your complete and utter disrespect for MOST women by implying that we are indulging in some sort of fantasy where Spock is concerned. For this reason alone, we shall speak no further because I am *not* Vulcan and I have no desire to showcase my temper in a public forum.”

The comments you find objectionable weren”t intended to be insulting, just an observation.

However, it is your choice how to respond to them, angrily, indifferently, or with good cheer. So you can take insult where none was offered, if you prefer. I am not in control of your emotions, and I do not pull any strings that make you feel or react one way or the other. For that you must take full responsibility, especially when discussing things in a forum on the internet where so much is lost in translation. I have said nothing wrong or with any disrespect or malice in my heart. So my conscience is clean. : )

For the record, I find nothing insulting about it or the suggestion that it also applies to me. I identify more with Kirk than Spock, and when Kirk is making out with Gaila the green girl, that is also ME up there doing that, so I feel the same way, and I don’t think there’s anything “insulting” about it.

We live vicariously through the characters with whom we identify most. That I mentioned Spock in connection with the people on this thread who are so vociferously pro Spock/Uhura does not mean that it does not also apply to the rest of us in the same ways about other characters.

It does, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

In fact, I thought it well established enough a truism that I am surprised to see a few on this thread trying to turn it into a polemic against the fairer sex.

756. dmduncan - January 30, 2010

Uhura + Spock = EPIC BADNESS and I intend to be here for the next 40 years booing it off!!!

757. dmduncan - January 30, 2010

@754: ; )

758. Trek Lady - January 31, 2010

“Who made the conjecture that they did something wrong? ”

Perhaps that is the impression I get from all the comments along the line of “TOS was great, FOR ITS TIME but it wouldn’t fly with today’s audiences… ”

And what is this based upon? Conjecture? *I* am part of “today’s audiences” you know? As are friends and family. Or so we get sent out to pasture once we pass a certain expiration date?

“They obviously recognized that what appeased audiences in the time of TOS is not going to work for the audience of today….”

Then how do explain all those NEW Trek fans who were drawn to the film and have gone on to become big fans of TOS? (and juding from the comments on various journals and forums, there are plenty of them.) Obviously, something “worked” for them. Action/adventure. Complex characters. Epic friendships. Stories that make us take a second look at ourselves and our world… those kinds of things don’t go out of style.

But at the end of the day the ST franchise is in the business of making money. ”

True… everything is a “commodity” these days, but Trek also used to be about making us think. Trek 2009 made money. It was fun and exciting and fresh…but it didn’t make me think. I sincerely hope that the next installment pushes the envelope a bit, even at the risk of not being a blockbuster….

And as for the “dying franchise”… I heard it all when the big Powers That Be droned on and on about “No one “being interested in TOS. About how TOS was dead and the fans didn’t care about Kirk and company anymore and it was time for something NEW and FRESH!

So they sex up Seven of Nine and make a vulcan a sex object to appease the fanboys and bring in a “new” audience… but that dossn’t work for long, because people who really LOVE Trek long term are not into it solely for the sexy women or sexy men…. that is only window dressing and won’t hold an audience for long. There are always other “sexy” icons out there to steal the thunder.

So “new and fresh” turns out to be rather stale… so what do they do? They bring back TOS, and it turns out to be an amazing hit. And those of us who have been TOS fans all along – involved in fandom and writing our stories, sharing our art, going to conventions, meeting up with one another, etc. just nod knowingly. And mutter, “It’s about time they figured it out.”

So no. I don’t really want them to make “TOS” over into their version of “new and fresh” because I have seen where they goes… Tweak it? Update it? Make it a bit more edgy? Sure… But do so without destroying what makes TOS unique. TOS in not just another sci-fi show. It is a show that has endured for years despite outdates effects and cheesy costumes. And those of us who have been around loving it for 40 plus years are going to be passionate about it…. that is just the way it is!

759. Hugh Hoyland - February 1, 2010

I agree to a certain point. But keep in mind there’s difference between a TV show and a motion picture. Usually with a motion picture you get one shot, if it flops you likely wont get another chance at it. I think with a TV series theres a little bit more chance to tweak it and fine toon in order to bring in a larger audience or even a following. Thats why IMO the way they did Star Trek 09 was spot on. Yes it is “based” on TOS, but they approached it as movie, not as a glorified TV episode. The glorified TV episode approach is something that has held back Star Trek movies from the very start.

760. Hateya - February 1, 2010

@Josie010

“There is NOTHING wrong with having Spock have a best friend (and a bondmate), at the same time. As long as the relationship is treated with respect and regulated to beautiful subtlety (please no love triangle); I’m all for it!”

Yes… THIS!

Love triangle. Ugh. No. Uhura has made her choice. I do not even desire Uhura in the BIG THREE TRIANGLE. I don’t want her and Spock on either side of Kirk. No. Uhura and Kirk on either side of Spock could be fun… in fan fiction.

Seriously, it’s always interesting to talk to those who are concerned about this Spock and Kirk friendship. It’s somewhat startling how we perceive things so differently.

I always contend that Spock could have a mate and a best friend with little or no issue. The THREE-WAY friendship could still exists. I do not champion Uhura replacing McCoy as one half of Kirk’s sounding board. Do.Not.Want. This absolutely does not suit her current personality.

I also do not wish to see Uhura playing chess with Spock. I’d rather she practice Kendo with Sulu or spend time doing something ultra brainy with Chekov or hanging out with Scotty listening to the engines or creating new types of weapons to back up the phasers and torpedoes.

Nonetheless, the movie did provide us with a change in the friendship dynamic and that wasn’t Uhura’s fault (although inexplicably she has been blamed for this). It happened because another character changed…

Spock and McCoy are fine. They are almost exactly as we remember them and frankly I loved it. The “stallion” discussion was perfect. Karl Urban gave me the chills when he channeled DeForest Kelley.

So if Uhura didn’t muck this up for old fans, then who did? In the TOS, Kirk had the advantage of Spock’s logic and McCoy’s blatant emotionalism. He could draw the best from these two opposing personalities and make decisions that stemmed from his understanding of their arguments.

In the new film though, McCoy is more or less Kirk’s babysitter. Kirk… Kirk… in the movie is beyond extreme. For the most part, he’s as bad as he wants to be. The movie commentary even addressed this issue.

It was probably JJ who said that with the new Spock and Kirk friendship both men were free to be who they *are.* They would balance each other out. Later on, after Spock, Kirk and Pike returned, someone said that everyone was reunited. I presumed they meant Kirk with McCoy and Spock with Uhura. All’s well in the universe.

Therefore, McCoy’s role (at that moment) might have changed, but it wasn’t because Uhura is with Spock, but rather because KIRK was so wildly different with his rebel attitude.

Rock on Uhura/Spock!!!

761. Hateya - February 1, 2010

To Orci and Kurtzman

You guys really read fan fiction? Honestly?

762. Hateya - February 3, 2010

Keep Spock and Uhura’s love alive and kicking!!! Pon Farr will take you a long way. We need it!

763. Trekgirl-V - February 4, 2010

Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have revitalized the Star Trek franchise. (Which was getting a little tired.) You don’t see all this fuss about Transformers or even the Spider Man series. Orci and Kurtzman has got everybody talking again. If that’s not brilliant writing, I don’t know what is. Their instincts were right. Lets hope they don’t change.

736- Hateya – AMEN AND AMEN.

Spock & Uhura: Genius

764. Flying Sulu - February 6, 2010

I love the continual affirmation from Bob and Alex, and the rest of the production team, that we the fans are heard. Star Trek, like James Bond, Star Wars, Harry Potter and the other cross-medium epics somehow belongs to the public domain, no matter what the credits tell us. Of course the creative process for these guys is the soul of the work, but our collective shell of ideas really keeps the soul in check.

Having said that, I can’t wait to see how the canon is next interpreted! The ideas being thrown around are great, and it’s clear that there will be some Trek mythos involved in the Enterprise’s next mission.

Dare I list some personal wants?

- The Guardian of Forever is a great device for any time-travel related storyline, though two back-to-back timeline stories would be hard to handle.

- The Gorn is ripe for re-imagining.

- Where are all the Klingons?

- I fear the coincidences inherent, but J.J. did such a great job with the Smoke Monster on Lost, and as the greatest Futurama episode, “Where No Fan Has Gone Before” tells us, many narratives of TOS deal with “energy beings”. What kind of new threat can be found and what parables can be tied to the real world through it?

- Last thought: Reaching the edge of the galaxy was the subject of one or two tense and exciting classic Trek.

765. Anon - February 10, 2010

http://www.seetreklove.com/petition.php

Despite the reputation of the group itself, the next Star Trek should have this. I personally don’t care who it is- not specific ‘pairing’ or anything, seriously. That doesn’t matter, and I’m not even saying that it should go all brokeback on us and stop being the amazing sci fi action movie it is- far from it.

I mean, Star Trek broke down social walls in its day. Now it’s skipped over the gay rights issue and went to the interspecies relationship one… I mean, there’s nothing wrong with the Spock and Uhura thing at all, I’m not arguing for or against that. But really, to get into gay rights, to have a hero in an action movie have a homosexual relationship or affection? That would do allot of good. Through the years, it’s always been about the next generation being better and more accepting then the last. I mean, people laugh, but it honest to god would be a good thing, to have a well-respected action hero be gay. It could be Sulu simply as a reference to the amazing Takai, it could be Kirk and Spock as a reference to the infamous slash, hell, it could be freaking Scotty and whoever. Or Uhura.

And seriously- if you guys are actually reading this at all, look at the amount of people who signed that petition. In this day and age, I honestly think the movie would sell the same amount of tickets, if only because the amount of people who came to see the movie purely because of their devotion to gay rights would be equal if not greater to the amount of people who would not go because of their own homophobic beliefs.

766. regina - June 11, 2010

After spending the last hour reading this forum, I have now concluded that the issue that either annoyed or excited most people about this movie was, of all things, the Spock/Uhura relationship. I concur with the consensus that his new “development” was an amusingly devastating failure, and I confess it ended up alienating me – and four other people I know – from the entire new movie. I have rewatched the movie, because I like Pine’s acting style and the cinematography, but now I always fast-forward the parts with Uhura – and Spock. Spock, who used to be mysterious enough to become the embodiment of the entire Star Trek franchise…and is now totally boring and predictable.

Before I start this rant (rant=argumentation which will yield no results but is done for self-catharsis) I wish to emphasize two things:
1) I am by no accounts an obsessive “trekkie.”I do not own merchandise or speak Kingonese. I do not know all the TOS episodes by heart. I HAVE watched TOS series, however, and thoroughly enjoyed it because of its emotional impact, dramatic arc and unique characters.
2) I am not a gay fanfiction fan. I do not argue from a biased viewpoint. Therefore, if anyone actually does read this post, it would not be valid to call my arguments tainted by an intentionally queer-tinted outlook.

And now to the point: Why are we – at least those of us who understand the basic precipice of star trek – so very repulsed by Spock / Uhura – notwithstanding the obvious lack of chemistry?

Answer: because it is emotional and intellectual stagnation.

Good pieces of drama are successful largely because of their emotional core. In this manner, TOS had a very genuine core: Kirk, Spock – and to a lesser extent – McCoy’s friendship. IT WAS AN EXCELLENT DRAMATIC PROPELLER. The 2009 movie, trying to “break free” from the restraints of the past and the danger of re-hashing old formulas, tried to find a new emotional core. And guess what it is? Yup, that’s right! …It’s still the relationship between Kirk and Spock. Only now, it’s being plagued by a completely misplaced romantic sub-plot, completely purposeless in dramatic necessity and – most importantly, EMOTIONALLY STAGNANT.

Now, I wish to emphasize this very, very much: I am in no way advocating that there are homoerotic implications in any star trek relationships. I am not a supporter of seeing gay relationships where they don’t necessarily exist. I do, however, wish to point out the irrefutable truth about TOS and every subsequent movie that featured Kirk and Spock: in all those movies, Spock was an intriguing character exactly BECAUSE he was emotionally unavailable to a provocative extent. Spock was undergoing a transformation, aided by Kirk and co. – and vice versa – which was a major emotional core of the movie. THIS DRAMATIC DEVICE PROVED EFFECTIVE ENOUGH TO GENERATE MORE THAN 6 SEQUELS, FEATURING THE SAME CHARACTERS IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS.

Now, in the new movie, the writers attempt to rid themselves of this huge Kirk-Spock dynamic, which they obviously feel has become a yolk. They want to attract more fans – not only hardcore trekkers – but girls in their teens, sensitive females interested in romance flicks…etc. And so they consider the option of a token romance for a protagonist; and since Kirk would be much too conspicuous because already undergoing a “character transformation” in this movie, what is the next natural selection? Mr. Spock, of course.

Ok, so we need a redeemer woman for Mr. Spock. Who’s a random female we can use, who is nearby? In fact, who is the only female character in the original cast…? YES! Cue random and completely unprovoked/unjustified romance with Uhura – “because she’s there”!! Does it matter if it’s not Uhura, but some other woman? Of course not; observe Spock’s interactions with her and you will notice she has been robbed of all personality traits and become an utterly unremarkable, totally replaceable “female character template”…who has no real discerning traits except for uninspired “hard-to-get” attitudes.

I find two things very ironic about these choices the writers have made. If they believe that, by inserting this badly conceived romantic eye-candy into the script – regardless of those excuses they give us about “inter-racial kissing”, which is complete fluff – they have somehow managed to reveal things about Spock’s character, they should reconsider. Perhaps they have not realized it, but the director himself, as well as the actors, are still focusing on the Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic, in spite of everything else. Observe the early montage scenes; watch how the editing is laid out: young kirk –> young spock –> brawling kirk –> brash spock. Later on, when everyone is on the Enterprise, the editing is still alternating between Kirk, Spock, McCoy. The actors’ performances are geared to respond to this dynamic, because they can find chemistry to latch emotion to. On the contrary, there is absolutely zero chemistry between Spock and Uhura – or Spock and any other woman. In fact…THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. Being in an alternate timeline does not recalibrate a person’s character: the CHARACTER SPOCK would never have instituted a relationship with Uhura in the Academy to begin with – which ostensibly took place before the alleged “Vulcan destruction” emotional outburst.

The second ironic thing is that, by instituting this horribly implausible “love story” they have not only depreciated the brilliant work they have done everywhere else in the script…they have blocked their own dramatic potency! Sure the Spock/Uhura will continue into the sequel(s) – it’s too late to change it now, what with having gone to such pains to make this daring choice. No, the great irony is that this “strategically placed” romance was actually less profitable than they thought: since there was no chemistry or emotional motivation, a large amount of new spectators were left indifferent about it. On the contrary, people who had seen star trek before were very agitated by it. Those long-standing fans will probably go and watch the next sequel too, but they will not consider it to be at the same dramatic caliber as it could be. Result: you gain minimal new fans while alienating thousands – not just people who liked TOS, but people who didn’t find in this movie a really exciting “emotional core”!

And the final irony, ladies and gentlemen, is this: since the writers wanted a token romance in the plot, the ideals and values of TOS would have ultimately been better served if they had simply given Kirk a love interest – it would have been less disruptive to the narrative and damaging to the overall character arcs. Counter-intuitive though it may seem, what with Kirk already undergoing emotional stress, it would have been more plausible and emotionally compelling to watch him struggle with romance – if you ABSOLUTELY MUST have romance, that is. After all, Kirk is notoriously promiscuous and sensual. No harm done – fans would have expected him to be rid of this trivial love interest in the next movie, and the emotionally exciting “trek” of friendship and adventure would simply continue.

But now, by having Spock engage in a full-fledged, emotionally compromising romance, this script violates even the most basic of Aristoteleian laws: probability trumps possibility in all good plot-making!!!! It doesn’t matter if it’s theoretically possible for Spock to have an affair – which it isn’t. What is most important is that it is IMPROBABLE for it to happen. By showing him kissing(!?) Uhura (!!) IN PUBLIC(!!!!), they have made this entire relationship IMPLAUSIBLE and therefore, have revealed it to the keen observer for what it really is: a production hoax to sneak some ‘chick-flickness’ in the movie, so that teenage girls warm up to the franchise, too.

The reason why this new “relationship” presents such a fundamental shift of the movie’s emotional core is why so many people dislike it or wish to purge it. I assure you all, unfortunately, it will not be purged. Rather, it will most probably be digressed and expanded on. Prepare to see love interests for Kirk in the next movie as well, which, along with Spock’s Uhura, will turn one of the most effective adventure sci-fi stories into a conventional ‘action-packed romance!”

i hope what I’m saying will not come true, but I know it will, unfortunately. Prepare to watch a lot more of Spock and Uhura (!!???!!!) getting it on (!) and talking about how they started dating (!) Finally, at times of annoyance, remind yourself of this: what can we REALLY expect from an industry that came up with Transformers 2, for God’s sake? It couldn’t have possibly gotten better than this. We should be grateful they didn’t make a full-fledged make-out scene.

767. SpoUhura Rocks - June 28, 2010

Keep Spock and Uhura going please! They are BEAUTIFUL together. Some of us are interested in Trek beyond the Kirk, Spock, and Bones friendship (which is a racist ideal by the way. Which lets you know why so many of these “fans” want to keep it in place at the expense of other characters…especially Uhura). For those of us who are not stuck in the 60′s, and don’t want to see the same story line complete with its redundant boredom; I say keep doing what you are doing Orci & Krutzman. It is the new things in the Trek movie that shook things up, and made things interesting.

There is a reason so many individuals re-watched the movie over and over again; and there is a reason that the new movie brought in so many new fans; and it aint because of the Kirk and Spock friendship. The Spock and Uhura relationship did that! When individuals are this upset by Spock and Uhura’s ten minutes of interaction…there is something else that is really ugly at play here. How ten minutes of interaction between two characters can mess up an entire movie speaks volumes for the individuals that posture that position.

The more things change; the more they stay the same!

Keep doing what you’re doing!

768. Spock/Uhura Fan - December 11, 2010

Spock and Uhura FOREVER!!! I absolutely loved the fact that they were an item in this movie, and please, please keep it that way!!! I also loved the open door for a possible romantic interaction between Kirk/Uhura down the line – but keep her with Spock for the long haul!!!

Fantastic writing guys!!! Keep it up!!!

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