Did EW Confirm Star Trek Into Darkness Villain’s True Identity? Not Really | TrekMovie.com
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Did EW Confirm Star Trek Into Darkness Villain’s True Identity? Not Really February 7, 2013

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Spoilers,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

As reported earlier, tomorrow Entertainment Weekly has a Star Trek Into Darkness cover feature with two collectible covers. Some fans have spotted something on the order page at Entertainment Weekly that seems to confirm the identity of the movie’s villain. Did it really? Well not exactly. See below [Warning: Spoilers discussed].  

 

 

EW Confirmed Khan?

As we reported earlier there are two collectible covers for the new issue of Star Trek Into Darkness. If you go online to the ew.com site to buy the one with Chris Pine and Benedict Cumberbatch, the cover title appears to confirm the true secret identity of Cumberbatch’s character (John Harrison). See image below…

Being that the cover story includes exclusive new images and on the record comments from JJ Abrams, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman and many of the actors from the movie is this actual "Khanfirmation." Actally, no.

Here is what is said about Khan in the actual EW cover story written by Geoff Boucher:

Unconfirmed rumors suggest that Harrison also goes by the name of Khan, the genetically upgraded tyrant portrayed by Ricardo Montalban in a February 1967 episode of the original series, as well as in 1982′s big-screen Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

In addition when EW sent TrekMovie the cover images yesterday the one in question was titled "Cumberbatch_Pine."

While it is true that Benedict Cumberbatch’s villain has been identified as Khan by TrekMovie.com (see spoiler article from last year – warning additional spoilers)…as well as other sources, this is still considered officially a rumor as it hasn’t been confirmed on the record by anyone related to the film. And that hasn’t changed. EW isn’t reporting any new on-the-record or off-the record-confirmation. It is possible that the "Khan" identity was just an over-zealous person from the EW website.  

UPDATE: EW Changes Order page

Not long after TrekMovie.com published this story, EW.com updated their site and removed the reference to Khan. Now both cover order pages have the same title "Kirk and Spock."


New order page at EW.com

Comments

1. njdss4 - February 7, 2013

Thanks for addressing this so quickly. It was going to bug me all day if I didn’t hear something about this. I still think we’re looking at a ‘Talia al Ghul’ situation like in Dark Knight Rises. Harrison is a cover name and he’ll reveal himself as Khan at some point in the movie.

2. M. - February 7, 2013

Khaaaan!!

3. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

“While it is true that Benedict Cumberbatch’s villain has been identified as Khan by TrekMovie.com (see spoiler article from last year – warning additional spoilers)…as well as other sources, this is still considered officially a rumor as it hasn’t been confirmed on the record by anyone related to the film.”

The words “by anyone related to the film” say it all.

4. 750Mang - February 7, 2013

Jesus…

5. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

Problem is a lot of people have trouble separating signal from noise.

6. Charles H. Root, III - February 7, 2013

whoa.

7. drumvan - February 7, 2013

i’m guessing the ew banner page gets changed pretty quickly. if not, it would appear to be khan.

8. AJ - February 7, 2013

4.

I’ll take Khan over Jesus in a Star Trek film any day.

If I want Jesus, I watch “Family Guy.”

9. Michael - February 7, 2013

It’s going to be “officially a rumor” until the day the movie opens.

But thems don’t change the facts.

10. Rose (as in Keachick) - February 7, 2013

So, in other words, nothing new…just more Khan nonsense…will it ever stop?

11. Josh C. - February 7, 2013

I will be wheelbarrowing crow in personally when the movie comes out and he’s not Khan

12. NuFan - February 7, 2013

Why are the media so dismissive of all the other wonderful, wonderful theories that trekkies have?

13. Captain Hackett - February 7, 2013

Fascinating

14. BatlethInTheGroin - February 7, 2013

The very idea that he’s playing Montalban’s character is entirely Khansensical. It’s obvious he’s not Khan.

15. NuFan - February 7, 2013

9

Yes, I hope nobody is holding their breath for any official confirmation.

16. Basement Blogger - February 7, 2013

@ 8

AJ says,

“If I want Jesus, I watch “Family Guy.”

That’s funny.

17. Jemini - February 7, 2013

I think that EW stuff just got lazy and they simply took the name from the IMDB page of the movie that for some reason no one has corrected yet.
You think that these guys could google it and find that the name is John Harrison.. but unfortunately most of the times they automatically go to the IMDB only.

18. Aaron - February 7, 2013

Good Job TM. Thank you.

19. Son of Jello - February 7, 2013

Having Khan in STITD would show a complete lack of imagination. And ST would look like it cannot move on from a plot line that was started in to 1960s.
(That’s 46years ago for those fans who are still living in the past and are demanding ST stay there).

20. pintobat - February 7, 2013

If you keep playing the game, JJ and crew will keep creating “secrets” for their projects in order to generate un-marketed buzz.

Nice going people.

21. Promo Boy - February 7, 2013

I have an EW subscription… so where the hell’s my issue?
Damned mail…

22. Jeffries Tuber - February 7, 2013

Montalban+Genomics=Bandersnatch Cumberbund

23. Son of Jello - February 7, 2013

21 Sorry about that I will get it back to you when I have finished with it.

24. njdss4 - February 7, 2013

The EW page has already been changed to say Kirk and Spock. Did they accidentally spoil an exclusive, or was it an innocent mistake?

25. Jovius - February 7, 2013

#17: I’ve been trying to submit a correction to that since John Harrison was revealed as his character, but it always gets stuck and doesn’t let me. We can only hope they make this correction themselves if enough people write in.

KHANNNNN!

26. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

Abrams is not going to hire a white Brit to play a man named Khan Noonien Singh. It’d be incredibly tacky and flat out wrong.

27. Basement Blogger - February 7, 2013

Let me say this before we start. I believe Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan. That being said let’s look at facts we can all agree on and perhaps look at other candidates than Khan. I’m not going to debunk since I’ve been accused of not keeping an open mind.

1. BC’s character John Harrison has superhuman strength, though he’s human looking. Leaked video, trailers.
2. Harrison is a member of Starfleet. EW article; see previous TM story. Alex Kurtzman’s comments.
3. Harrison is described as a terrorist. EW article; comments by BC.
4. Harrison is canon. Bob Orci interview from this site.
5. Harrison says he’s better at everything. Super Bowl trailer.
6. Harrison tells grieving father that he can save his sick daughter. First nine minutes of the move. Could be a Khan job. Oops, sorry about that.
7. Kirk doesn’t recognize Harrison. Asks “Who are you?” Super Bowl trailer.
8. Harrison says he’s coming back for his revenge. Announcement trailer.

Other than Khan, who are the other candidates.

Gary Mitchell. Gary Seven. Charlie Evans. (“Charlie X”) Trelane. Altered Klingons. Kor. Kang. Koloth.

Any others? Just remember superhuman strength, canon, and seeking revenge.

28. NuFan - February 7, 2013

24

Oh, my. That was quick. Did JJ place the angry phone call personally?

And some of you dare to say JJ doesn’t care about Star Trek anymore.

29. Craiger - February 7, 2013

Why go around saying you are John Harrison? I said this in a previous post wouldn’t Starfleet have Khan’s photo on file so they would know it was him? Unless Khan would be able to alter his appearance somehow?

30. MJ - February 7, 2013

“While it is true that Benedict Cumberbatch’s villain has been identified as Khan by TrekMovie.com (see spoiler article from last year – warning additional spoilers)…as well as other sources, this is still considered officially a rumor as it hasn’t been confirmed on the record by anyone related to the film. And that hasn’t changed.”

Thanks Anthony for reconfirming your breaking story from last year where you reported from multiple inside sources that Khan was confirmed as the villain.

CASE CLOSED !!!!!

31. Aix - February 7, 2013

Dear. These interns are messing with our minds.

32. MJ - February 7, 2013

@3 “The words ‘by anyone related to the film’ say it all.”

Your selection of this quote from Anthony cuts out the key context phrase. What he said was:

“it hasn’t been confirmed on the record by anyone related to the film.”

The key context phrase here that you chose to leave out is: “ON THE RECORD”

Big difference here, because people in the film OFF THE RECORD confirmed to Anthony last year that Khan is the villain.

Notice as well that Anthony uses the term, “this is still considered officially a rumor.” That certainly implies to me that Anthony is as confident in his Khan story now as he was last year.

This does it for me. This is pretty much the final confirmation that I have been waiting for.

33. Garth Faction - February 7, 2013

27

Garth. Garth fits.

But now I think the cat is out of the bag, and we just got spin…

34. MattR - February 7, 2013

#29. Well, considering how in “Space Seed”, they knew his name was Khan for a bit before realizing he was Khan Noonien Singh, it wouldn’t be too surprising that no one realized it was him.

35. Trelane The Squire Of Harlem - February 7, 2013

You would have to be an idiot to not see that Harrisson is a genetically advanced human being and even more of an idiot to not see whats staring us in the face. He is an augment and he lamented about family and said he was better at “everything”. Kirk did not know who he was in the trailer. He really hates Starfleet and Great Britian pissed him off. The IMAX preview confirms we are dealing with genetics.

Remember Neros incursion altered the timeline thus creating a new reality. The Botany Bay may have been discovered by someone else. It may have been found by another crew. Another branch of Starfleet. The ship drifted for 200 years. Nero altered the balance of power. Vulcan was a major major player in Federation affairs. What was the impact on the Federation? This movie will be awesome Can’t wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

36. Riker's Beard - February 7, 2013

He’s clearly not Khan.

37. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

32: “Big difference here, because people in the film OFF THE RECORD confirmed to Anthony last year that Khan is the villain.”

Where did AP ever say his source was from “in the film?” That’s news to me, my man. I don’t ever recall AP identifying his mystery source as someone “in the film” or who was unambiguously in a position to know.

Ever.

So post that link if you have it.

“This does it for me. This is pretty much the final confirmation that I have been waiting for.”

Sounds like you’re still vacillating, MJ. The “pretty much” cancels out the “this does it for me.”

I am committed to the position that Cumberbatch is not playing Khan.

Are you committed to the position that he is?

38. Scottevill - February 7, 2013

It’s either Khan or one of his flunkies from the Botany Bay. I’ve been leaning toward the latter but there’s no reason it couldn’t be Khan. The ethnicity thing could be disposed of with a joke.

“You don’t look like a Singh…”

“It’s called genetic engineering. Have you never heard of it or are you just a racist?”

39. caseylee4ts - February 7, 2013

I don’t post here often but I enjoy reading the comments. So I’ll add my two cents to this for what it’s worth…

I do not believe BC is playing Khan. Not only was Khan Indian, but nothing else before the Botany Bay was launched should have been changed. Unless the Supreme Court are REALLY screwing things up now, which I doubt. Also, the comment that Bob Orci made about BC’s character being canon… well since he’s in the new film, wouldn’t that now make him canon even if he’s never shown up before? I can’t remember if Bob Orci made a remark that we’d ever seen him before or just that he was canon.

All that being said, I don’t believe Khan is totally out of the picture. Some of the images from the trailers show what look like either coffins or stasis tubes. So BC could either be an Augment like some have suggested, or one of Khan’s followers on some sort of revenge mission against Earth.

I’d be willing to bet that BC dies at the end of the film and sets it up for Khan’s arrival in the next one. Something along the lines of, “You may have beaten me, but this is only the beginning. There’s someone far worse that you’ll have to answer to now.”

In short, I’m just saying I don’t think BC is Khan, but I think there’s some kind of connection to Khan.

And another curve ball to some, in case you’re not reading the Countdown to Darkness comic, Captain April does play a part in something… what that is we’re waiting to know in the next issues.

40. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

Spock Prime begins to have feelings for Uhura and competes with other Spock.
Spock Prime sabotages other Spock’s tether cable on the shuttle.
Spock Prime chases other Spock off the roof of Starfleet HQ.
Spock Prime gets locked in the brig and gives his katra to other Spock.
Other Spock become twice the man he was satisfying Uhura needs giving her more than just the fingers (Pon Farr).

41. Craiger - February 7, 2013

#34 – I don’t think they knew he was Khan when they first saw him in Space Seed. Didn’t they just know that they were genetically engineered super humans because of Lt. McGivers?

42. MJ - February 7, 2013

Would I bet my life savings on Khan? No.

Do I think its Khan? Yes.

If its not Khan, is is going to be Joachim or and equivalent charter? Most definitely.

Is there any change that the character is unrelated to the Khan story? No

Who has been saying Khan was involved for the past two years? Me, Red Dead Ryan, Basement Blogger, Craiger, a couple others.

Who was saying two months ago it was likely to be Gary Mitchell? You, and 75% of the people here.

43. MJ - February 7, 2013

“chance” not “change”

44. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - February 7, 2013

One things is certen. The Night Star Trek Into Darkness oppens. Trek Movie will be going Nut’s. Just like it did when Star Trek 2009 came out.
Anthony. I hope you have Trekmovie ready.

45. The Truth - February 7, 2013

I believe I remember Bob Orci (please forgive me, Bob, if it weren’t you) or one of the other creative staff saying that there would be some ‘face-melting’ in the film. Seeing as Khan (well, a broad-shouldered chap with pony tail and genetically engineered superhman swagger) was seen walking out of a bay containing tens of stasis tubes and all of the ‘I am better’, the jumping ten metres into the air and beating up some Klingons (who aren’t the weakest bunch in the Milky Way)… it’s difficult to think of the baddie being anyone else.

I think the Robert April speculation/rumour was well constructed and the silence surrounding Peter Weller’s character (who, incidentally, has his own starship) is deafening. I believe Weller is April, who’s got some vendetta with Starfleet following Pike’s captaincy of the Big E before him. April revives Khan (prior maybe to Nero’s demise), gives him a new identity and purpose to be a ‘one man weapon of mass destruction’… Of course, Khan’s no puppet, disposes of April and runs his own campaign of vengence against Earth and the wider Federation.

By the way, I’m loving Uhuru’s wetsuit!

46. MJ - February 7, 2013

DM, here you go –from Anthony’s story last year:

“TrekMovie has also confirmed this with a number of sources so we no longer consider it to be a rumor. Khan is back in 2013, however sources indicate that the film is not a rehash of “Space Seed,” the original Star Trek episode where Kirk and crew first encounter the genetic superman from the past.”

It says here, “confirmed this with a number of sources so we no longer consider it to be a rumor.” The only way Anthony could say this is if he had confirmation from inside sources…again, he says, “we no longer consider it to be a rumor.” To no longer consider it a rumor, he would need inside confirmation.

Now if you want to say that Anthony is a shoddy journalist and take that route her to question him, well I can’t prove anything in that regard. However, my opinion is that Anthony is a pretty damn good amateur journalist who is careful about what he says.

47. MJ - February 7, 2013

@45. Yes, Weller is most likely playing April. I would rate that as a 90% chance.

48. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

#45 – By the way, I’m loving Uhura’s wetsuit!

So does Spock Prime.

49. Craiger - February 7, 2013

Also with this new Universe couldn’t JJ make Khan not be from India? I found this at Wikipedia:

“The character was originally conceived of as a Nordic superman by scriptwriter Carey Wilber before his ancestry was changed in script revisions. Harve Bennett, executive producer for Star Trek II, chose Khan as the villain for the film.”

What if JJ uses that early version of Khan before it was changed?

50. K-7 - February 7, 2013

@48 Pon fracking farr…..yea, baby!!!

51. JR - February 7, 2013

likely not Khan, but posibly the result of opening a different cryo-chamer.

52. Cervantes - February 7, 2013

Gah, I Khan’t take much more of this uncertainty.

53. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

49 – Craiger

Then if he’s nordic, he wouldn’t be called Khan.

As was noted above, the timeline shifts when Nero arrives. Everything before it unfolded exactly as it did in prime, which means the Eugenics Wars happened just like they did before, and Khan and gang escaped on the Botany Bay, just like they did before. The same would apply to the Doomsday Machine, or V’Ger, or a multitude of other things.

54. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

#53 – As was noted above, the timeline shifts when Nero arrives. Everything before it unfolded exactly as it did in prime, which means the Eugenics Wars happened just like they did before, and Khan and gang escaped on the Botany Bay, just like they did before. The same would apply to the Doomsday Machine, or V’Ger, or a multitude of other things.

Not Spock Prime’s feelings for Uhura. Since he screwed himself over by entering this Jar Jar Abrahm’s universe and begins having feelings like other Spock.

55. K-7 - February 7, 2013

@53. Leif Khandrickson? Eric the Red Khan? Ragnar Khanbrok?

56. Luther Sloan - February 7, 2013

Harrison come back for vengeance because he was imprisoned by Kirk and Spock in 2259… this is the first part of the movie ;)

57. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

46

Yeah, that’s what I remember.

I think what has probably happened is that AP’s secret “sources” are not highly placed in the production. But let’s say they’re close enough to the production that they know the Botany Bay makes an appearance in the movie. Maybe they work in the VFX department, and they modeled the ship. Not necessarily that EXACTLY, but something like that.

Mention the Botany Bay and what’s the first thing you think?

Khan. Of course, there were 42 other super dudes aboard the Botany Bay. And I am fairly confident Harrison is going to be one of them, and not Khan. But Khan is the first one you think of, he’s who you know, and when you make that connection, you think you’ve confirmed who the movie is about when in fact your “confirmation” is mistaken because it was an assumption rather than a direct observation of who Cumberbatch is playing.

Filled with the certainty of your logic, you then go and leak that information to a select group of others, who believe it, and pass it on to their readers, who then believe it because they respect the outlet that is giving them that information.

That’s actually how people get misinformed on a global scale, until somebody has the good sense to begin looking at all the details of where the info came from and what the exact language was that got passed on initially from the source to the outlet. But in this case, none of it is available for examination. AP never even quoted an exact sentence he was told. He didn’t provide us with any language he heard directly — unattributed, of course. He digested it himself and gave us a conclusion.

So relying on APs source exclusively is like betting on a horse.

Now, to contrast that with how I roll: When I was doing my blog (TKR), I actually made JPG clips of things that I quoted so my readers could see the quote DIRECTLY with their own eyes. I wasn’t digesting or transforming that information in any way — not even risking the slightest chance that I could make a transcribing error. That’s how meticulous I was in protecting the integrity of the information — IN CONTEXT — I was passing on.

In short, I wasn’t CHANGING it. I wasn’t even RISKING changing it.

AP doesn’t do that, and none of us has any idea what he was told because he never even paraphrased anyone. He just gave us his conclusion based on what he heard.

58. Phil - February 7, 2013

Damn auto spell check….

59. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

55 K-7

Ha! Perhaps there was more genetic engineering going on than we realized!

60. MJ - February 7, 2013

@57. Well DM, I admit, your reasoning here is pretty compelling….now you’ve got me thinking again on this.

Thanks dude for the renewed crisis of confidence. I thought this was Khan-Day….but perhaps not?

61. Craiger - February 7, 2013

#53 – Why couldn’t a Nordic be called Khan?

Everything does change after 2233 when Nero arrives. Kirk was supposed to take Command of the Enterprise in 2265 not in 2258. Space Seed was in 2267, that is when the Botany Bay was originally found. I looked this up in Star Trek Memory Alpha. So right their the Kirk and the finding of the Botany Bay has been altered.

62. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

You ever see that experiment where a chain of people verbally pass on a message, and how that message gets distorted each time it gets passed, so that by the last person it is a completely different message?

Well, where are we in that chain?

We don’t know.

63. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

60. MJ – February 7, 2013

LOL!

64. Garth Faction - February 7, 2013

Nero going back in time would create a ripple effect, even affecting things BEFORE Nero. That’s rather simple. We know TOS did time-travel stories. The rebooted Kirk/Spock, when they go back into the past, could have done things to change the Khan sequence, so he is indeed different due to Nero.

65. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

61 – Craiger

Good point, but that wouldn’t alter his ethnicity in any way, just the circumstances surrounding his discovery.

66. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

Spock Prime is definitely going through PON FARR now. He can screw the Kohlinahr test and stick with the Kobayashi Maru.

67. MJ - February 7, 2013

Craiger, Ensign Red Shirt, All,

There is a very simple explanation for the Botany Bay getting discovered “early” in the nuTrek universe. From the point of the Nero attack, the events concerning Star fleet in the new universe changed enough that ships schedules and destinations were completely different within just a few years afterwards, thus allowing any chance starship to find Khan much earlier than in TOS universe.

This, by the way, is one of the things that really irritated me by the comics where they essentially repeated original Trek stories. Those stories in this new universe should mostly not be happening, because this Enterprise would not be showing up in those portions of space in those same years as for the TOS crew. It’s just dumb then to remake those old TOS stories.

68. Chris Roberts - February 7, 2013

They should officially announce who Benedict is playing…

on April 1st.

69. Peter Loader - February 7, 2013

You can still have a villain named Khan with nothing to do with the original. People’s preconceived notions will always get in the way of intelligent thought. Have to agree with dmduncan’s post no 63.

Not saying it is Khan… not the one we’re all familiar with anyway…

70. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

You can blame Mr. Cupcake for that. He is probably mad because Kirk is his CO now. Keenser too has some blame climbing on things making course changes. In fact That is why Spock Prime stayed back with Keenser on Delta Vega. He took advantage of Keenser being lonely for the loss of Scotty.

71. Craiger - February 7, 2013

Good point, MJ about the relaunch comics!

72. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

MJ

Agreed on the comics. Even though they’re a fun read, they make no sense in the context of the new timeline.

Like I said to Craiger, the timeline changing might alter the circumstances of his discovery, but wouldn’t fundamentally alter the character(i.e. his ethnicity)

73. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

Nero going back in time changed my name to Spock Prime, no relations with Optimus.

74. Vorus - February 7, 2013

One Question:

Has it ever been stated that BC calls himself “John Harrison” in the actual film itself?

75. Craiger - February 7, 2013

#72 – Sorry, didn’t know you were talking about ethnicity. However could the timeline change allow Khan to alter his appearance so maybe he could infiltrate Starfleet?

76. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

NO WAIT I WAS SENTINAL PRIME!!!

77. Lurker - February 7, 2013

Well, does Spock Prime tell this StarFleet about Khan, the Doomsday Machine, V’Ger, and etc? Would the writers even touch upon that aspect?

He definitely wanted himself and young Kirk to get together.

78. MJ - February 7, 2013

“but wouldn’t fundamentally alter the character(i.e. his ethnicity)”

Yea, but it may be that BC was just the best actor for the part and they cast him any…damn the references to his TOS heritage in India.

Think of it as an inconsistency that may seem problematical now, but then also consider that The Eugenics Wars never happened anyway in the 1990′s, so changing Khan’s back-story a bit more isn’t really all that damaging to the franchise.

This is perhaps just today’s version of wondering why in the hell in Where No Man Has Gone Before we see “James R. Kirk” on the headstone, when its James T Kirk in the rest of Trek.

In the end, it’s just something to live with and get over and have fun canon discussions about. Its really not that critical that he look like Montelban or be from India.

79. Rose (as in Keachick) - February 7, 2013

John Harrison possibilities -
Human
Human/hybrid – possibly Human/Vulcan
Augment
Khan or one of those guys who came with Khan on the Botany Bay – not that likely
*Shape-shifter (a la Fringe)

* This is an alternate universe, where perhaps the kind of technology that allowed for the development of shape-shifters in Fringe also occurred in this alternate universe. Those shape-shifters in Fringe would hardly be described as fully human, even though they have human/organic DNA. John Harrison is described as an “entity”. A Fringe shape-shifter could be described as more an “entity” with great intelligence and strength. I mean, this is a Kurtzman/Orci story.

A while back, I mentioned that Fringe and Star Trek may have things in common, apart from both being sci-fi, and in other respects, no so much or nothing in common.

I still keep thinking he is a vulcan/human hybrid like Spock, however he would hardly be described as an “entity”. Perhaps there is an entity guiding him.

80. Jerry Modene - February 7, 2013

ST09 happening several years earlier in the timeline could explain Spock’s emotionalism; he was much more emotional in “The Cage” than he was by the time of “Where No Man Has Gone Before”.

As for pon farr – I remember Dorothy Fontana suggesting that just because Vulcans *have* to do it every seven years doesn’t mean that they *can’t* or *don’t* do it in between pon farrs.

81. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

75 – Craiger

Yeah I think that’s the only way they could justify it.

78 – MJ

Definitely. These convos are all in fun. Catnip for canon junkies!

82. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

77 -

I believe there was going to be a novel that touched upon that, but the kibosh got put on it(along with other nuTrek novels) because Bob and gang want to build more of the universe before they let others start playing with it, and to avoid potential conflicts with the films. Having Spock Prime exist in that universe with all the knowledge he has makes him very valuable, both to the Federation as well as their enemies.

83. Disinvited - February 7, 2013

The trades just can’t help themselves:

http://hollywoodreporter.com/news/benedict-cumberbatch-wants-julian-assange-414703

Calling his character Khan.

84. Spock Prime - February 7, 2013

YES, Spock Prime will have his revenge on other Nero.

85. NuFan - February 7, 2013

83

Hah! JJ is going to have to place another angry phone call.

86. CanOpener1256 - February 7, 2013

“What we have here is … failure to communicate!”

87. MJ Kelly - February 7, 2013

I still think Harrison is the cover name for Capt April.
Seriously it clearly says he is a former starfleet officer who betrays starfleet.
Khan is not a starfleet officer.

April was and I truy believe that its something involving a reverse aged april ala the Counter Clock incident, hence why Kirk doesnt know who he is and then it explains why Harrison says he is better.

Comics SPOILER BELOW

And remember issue 2 of the comics indicate Aprils been missing for 20 years thought to have been killed.

88. Craiger - February 7, 2013

One thing is that they want the general movie going audience not to have know anything about the previous Star Trek episodes and movies not even ST 2009. Could they set up the sequel in a way that follows the comics but the general audience wouldn’t need to have read them.

89. L4YERCAKE - February 7, 2013

Hey folks, everybody here knows that Rober April is in the Countdown To Darkness comics series, right? As in, the one that Robert Orci is personally involved in?

Peter Weller’s character is a ‘CEO with his own starship’, not a canon character, Pike’s superior and probably Khan/Harrison’s inside man to back his infiltration into Starfleet, as in, Khan wants revenge, Weller probably sees a way to profit from it that helps justify the immorality of the whole thing.

I like how the anti-Khan crowd’s argument is, ‘Well, there’s no way it’s going to be Khan, but if it is, well, JJ Abrams ruined Star Trek, so who cares anyhow!’ :)

I think Carol Marcus is going to die in Star Trek Into Darkness…

90. No Khan - February 7, 2013

#83 That may prove it. Two mistakes now. I don’t think so! The Media must now know.

91. The Sinfonian - February 7, 2013

Khan Noonyensingh.
John Harrrrrisssson.

The lip movements aren’t completely dissimilar. Could they do it all in post?

92. matthew - February 7, 2013

@MJ: “Comics SPOILER BELOW

And remember issue 2 of the comics indicate Aprils been missing for 20 years thought to have been killed.”
_____
I’m skimming through and didn’t find this – the issue of “Where No Man Has Gone Before”?

93. Daniel Broadway - February 7, 2013

From this article…

While it is true that Benedict Cumberbatch’s villain has been identified as Khan by TrekMovie.com as well as other sources, this is still considered officially a rumor…

From last year’s article.

“TrekMovie has also confirmed this with a number of sources so we no longer consider it to be a rumor.”

Just sayin’…

94. Daniel Broadway - February 7, 2013

From this article…

“While it is true that Benedict Cumberbatch’s villain has been identified as Khan by TrekMovie.com as well as other sources, this is still considered officially a rumor…”

From last year’s article.

“TrekMovie has also confirmed this with a number of sources so we no longer consider it to be a rumor.”

Just sayin’…

95. Hat Rick - February 7, 2013

Is this a Khantest to see which rumor rules?

It is beyond my Khanstitution to read more of this.

I Khan’t bear to read more of this speculation.

People of ill health might even become inKhantinent.

At this point, I would almost bet that it’s Immanuel Khant. I mean, Kant.

Of course, it could all be one big Khan.

You’re welcome.

96. BatlethInTheGroin - February 7, 2013

#92: No, issue #2 of the STID prequel series.

97. BatlethInTheGroin - February 7, 2013

OK, given everything we now know, I think I’m nearly 100 percent convinced that Cumberbatch is playing Joachim, who is working with Robert April. I’d actually be willing to bet money on this.

98. matthew - February 7, 2013

@96: ah, i haven’t gotten those yet, as I’m waiting for the omnibus edition – thanks! :)

99. Ensign RedShirt - February 7, 2013

97 -

You’re joking, right?

100. MJ Kelly - February 7, 2013

#92

perhaps the following link will enlighten you

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/star-trek-countdown-to-darkness/id585451891?mt=11

also please note my name is MJ Kelly you might want to make sure you add the kelly at the end as to avoid confusion with another member

101. Jeremy - February 7, 2013

Um, “Not long after TrekMovie.com published this story, EW.com updated their site and removed the reference to Khan. Now both cover order pages have the same title “Kirk and Spock.”"

Seriously? You weren’t the first website to post this, I saw 3 other websites report it before trekmovie did heh. Was Comicbookmovie, Hypable, Collider, then you guys.

Let’s not try to act like they suddenly responded to your story, not to mention you failed to cite the websites who actually noticed the headline.

102. Gary S. - February 7, 2013

Variety once reported that there was not going to be any flying scenes in the first iron Man film.
How much you want to bet they got that from the internet?
Unless JJ And Co tell us , the only way to know the villains identity for certain is to see the film

103. Captain Kurt - February 7, 2013

I’ve said it before in another thread: I don’t believe the whole “Del Toro dropped out at the last minute and we hired BC – how lucky we were!” Was London in the story for Del Toro and the producers said, “gee, we made this London subplot so let’s rush and find a British actor to play the John Harrison character?” Was the character named Jaun Harrison for Del Toro?

None of that makes sense. What does make sense is that BC was in all along and the Del Toro situation has been a ruse. I think we will see Del Toro pop out of one of those tubes at the end and whisper “how long?” setting up you-know-who in Part 3.

104. Star trek lover - February 7, 2013

I say its Joachim. At the end they will show Khan leaving the BB, setting it up for the third movie. Khan getting revenge for Joachim’s death.

105. Jack - February 7, 2013

12. Media sites have been reporting on all these cockamamie theories all along — Mitchell, Gary Seven…

I still think the danger is alienating general movie fans who night worry that the film requires homework. Or will make them Trekkies by association.

106. Craiger - February 7, 2013

I was thinking even right after Nero’s incursion their could have been another Enterprise. Since this is an altered timeline we don’t have to stick with the six Federation Enterprise’s. The original Enterprise launched in 2245. The new Enterprise launched in 2258 in the AU. Maybe Captain April commanded an Enterprise before Kirk’s and he and that ship were considered lost and now April has returned for revenge against Starfleet?

107. Trekbilly - February 7, 2013

#104 — Hope you’re right!! I think Cumberbatch is a dead ringer for Judson Scott (Joachim)…

108. stunkill - February 7, 2013

@16 Thats not funny, that hurts.

109. BatlethInTheGroin - February 7, 2013

#99: No.

110. Captain Kurt - February 7, 2013

@104 and 107.

I don’t think BC is Joachim. Joachim is on the Botney Bay with Kahn, even in this timline. BC is John Harrison, an original augment who through genetics and science has mastered longevity. He has infiltrated Starfleet and has been looking for the Botney Bay. My guess is the Botney Bay has been captured by the Klingons.

111. Commodore Adams - February 7, 2013

STAR TREK XIII MUST BE RELEASED IN 2016 TO COINCIDE WITH ITS 50TH ANNIVERSARY, IT WOULD BE SPECIAL. IF STAR WARS IS RELEASED IN 2016…IT WOULD SHOW COMPLETE APATHY AND NO RESPECT.

112. WillH85 - February 7, 2013

Ugh

113. Trekbilly - February 7, 2013

#110 — sounds plausible!

114. Marshall McMellon - February 7, 2013

@17- “…and they simply took the name from the IMDB page of the movie that for some reason no one has corrected yet.”

I have an IMDB listing and I can tell you from personal experience, it fairly easy to get information ON an IMDB listing, but it takes a veritable act of congress to get it OFF of a listing once it’s there. I know this because there is some inaccurate information on MY listing and I have tried repeatedly for years to have it removed. They won’t budge. Fortunately it’s not damaging information or anything of that nature. Just inaccurate. Otherwise, if I were still in the business, I think I’d have to hire a lawyer to see some kind of movement there.

Anyway- just an FYI based on my personal experiences. With the site.

115. Marshall McMellon - February 7, 2013

#110- AaaaHHHHHhhhhh.

Nice theory. You may be onto something. :)

116. Daniel Broadway - February 7, 2013

The EW webpage still has something interesting in the URL which I have pointed out here…

http://i.imgur.com/bdc2ipB.jpg

117. CmdrR - February 7, 2013

It’s a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time til May!

118. indranee - February 7, 2013

JJ’s not gonna blow it this way, people. He’s laughing at our “superior intellect”.

119. Jim, London - February 7, 2013

Would stand to reason then that if this movie is taking examples of terrorism from modern day events that whoever Cumberbatch is playing would have similarities to Bin Laden et al…. My money still says he’s Khan

120. Ahmed - February 7, 2013

98 days remain before the movie come out & we still don’t know who is the villain !!! Paramount should release a statement & end this ridiculous secrecy, the time is past for such games.

121. MJ Kelsey - February 7, 2013

I believe that BC is playing Joachim, and It’s also pretty clear to me that Robert April is being played by Peter Weller.

122. sean - February 7, 2013

I suspect Cumberbatch is a relic of the Eugenics Wars, but not Khan. For one, the whole ‘member of Starfleet who turns on Starfleet’ does not fit Khan in any way. For another, I don’t think this group would ignore/alter his ethnicity by casting a white Brit in the role.

123. Michael - February 7, 2013

Do you think these long standing and well respected entertainment news outlets are being “careless” on purpose? You know, like they feel that with Abrams off doing Star Wars they don’t have to shut up anymore?

124. Basement Blogger - February 7, 2013

@ 33

Garth Faction,

Okay, I said I won’t debunk in 27 but I feel now we can discuss the other candidates and disagree. I still think it’s Khan. But I want to take a look at your guy Captain Garth.

Garth is from the ” Whom Gods Destroy” episode. That makes him canon. So far so good for your theory. Garth can shapeshift. Oh, he;s also insane. In fact that episode is kind of crazy. Okay, sorry for that. Don’t believe he’s superhuman from the episode. Otherwise, he would have killed Kirk. I could be wrong, but I don’t find anything in the episode to indicate that he wants revenge on earth. Maybe, he’s pissed because the Federation sent him hospitalized him.

I would not vote for Garth. I don’t see the superhuman strength part. The episode is kind of crazy too. It’s somewhat bizarre to extrapolate this episode into a big budget movie The one thing that I do like about it, there’s compassion at the end for Garth. That’s Star Trek. Tolerance. Compassion.

125. ajdczar - February 7, 2013

I agree with sean, and add that after watching the trailers and Ben in Sherlock, he doesn’t appear physically superior to my brother who was a nerd and ran track in high school (no offense Frank).

But seriously, unless he has taken the Captain America potion, I don’t buy it. And if he IS kahn, I will be disappointed for that reason alone.

126. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

I watched Futurama’s “Where No Fan Has Gone Before” for the first time.

Loved it. It was almost like discovering a new Star Trek episode done entirely for laughs.

127. DWNicolo - February 7, 2013

Looks like someone at EW brainfarted or had a Fruedian slip.

128. Randy H. - February 7, 2013

Waaaay back with #19, who said “Having Khan in STITD would show a complete lack of imagination. And ST would look like it cannot move on from a plot line that was started in to 1960s.
(That’s 46years ago for those fans who are still living in the past and are demanding ST stay there).”

I agree that it would show a lack of imagination. But as a fan of Trek for the past, oh, 40-something years, I’m a little insulted by the idea that good characters, good stories, and good science are somehow a bad thing because they have roots a half century ago.

If Abrams & Co. could only do half as well as the 1960′s production crew I’d be happy. As it is, with the bizarrely underwater Enterprise, absurd engineering design, and stupid name dropping (Delta Vega anyone?), I don’t have high hopes that this film will be a great SF film or a great Trek film. Happy to be wrong . . . and only time will tell.

129. Adolescent Nightmare - February 7, 2013

You can believe the fans who’ve been wrong every step of the way so far, or you can believe your eyes.

130. DiscoSpock - February 7, 2013

MJ Kelly and MJ Kelsey,

Are you the same person, and are you the person who use to make trouble here calling themselves MJ Tucker?

131. Giez - February 7, 2013

“he does a great Gary Mitchell” –

EW “Kirk & Khan”….

Really… Really?? Can we keep buying the Kool Aid? boborci come clean!

(never will)

132. The Original Spock's Brain - February 7, 2013

@122. sean ” I don’t think this group would ignore/alter his ethnicity by casting a white Brit in the role.”

You mean as opposed to casting a Mexican?

133. MJ - February 7, 2013

@130. Disco,

Yesterday these two new posters showed up, with “MJ Kelly” being critical of me like he/she knew me — and behaving just like “MJ Tucker” did several weeks back when he appeared out of thin air and acted like he knew me previously. Use of the “MJ” moniker seems to provide some people with a measure of fun here I guess.

Moreover, this MJ Kelly said that he got the idea for this name from a Tampa Radio show personality. Well,I checked into that, and that former radio personality was called MJ “Kelli”, not “Kelley.” Who would make a weird claim to their name like that and then not even spell it correctly?

And then this “MJ Kelsey” shows up a few hours later and posts? WTF?

I wish people would stop trying to bastardize my name here. Come on folks, have some originality please.

134. covette King - February 7, 2013

Here it is folks,

Botany Bay in
Khan out

any questions?

135. dmduncan - February 7, 2013

Reporting on this story (and so many stories, really) reminds me of the South Park episode, “Two Days Before The Day After Tomorrow.”

Tom the anchorman reports:

“Peril, crisis, and fear tonight as what appears to be a massive flood has overtaken the town of Beaverton, Colorado, home of the world’s largest beaver dam. Earlier today a break in the beaver dam which protected the town broke open trapping people in their houses and destroying their lives.”

Reporter Mitch: “Tom, I’m currently 10 miles outside of Beaverton, unable to get inside the town proper. We do not have any reports of fatalities yet, but we believe that the death toll may be in the hundreds of millions. Beaverton has only a population of about 8000, Tom, so this would be quite devastating.”

Tom: “Any word on how the survivors in the town are doing, Mitch?”

Mitch: “We’re not sure exactly what’s going on inside the town of Beaverton, Tom, but we’re reporting that there’s looting, raping, and yes, even acts of canniballism.”

Tom: “My God! Y-You’ve actually SEEN people looting, raping, and eating each other?”

Mitch: “No, no we haven’t actually seen it, Tom — we’re just reporting it.”

136. Ahmed - February 7, 2013

@133. MJ

These stuff happen when there is no unique sign-in process on this site & where we end up with imposters & fakers.

137. DeShonn Steinblatt - February 7, 2013

So no Khan, then?

138. DiscoSpock - February 7, 2013

Ahmed, MJ,

I suspect that these new MJ __fill-in-the-blankers are Stunkill, up to his old tricks again. We pretty much smoked out MJ Tucker as Stunkill, and now he’s reemerged here with the weird “K” names.

139. Commodore Adams - February 7, 2013

@20. pintobat – February 7, 2013
“If you keep playing the game, JJ and crew will keep creating “secrets” for their projects in order to generate un-marketed buzz.”

Yuuuup.

140. Commodore Adams - February 7, 2013

Hmm….

…..A Khan who’s pattern indicates four-dimensional thinking.

141. chrisfawkes.com - February 7, 2013

If it is Khan they will need to dump him on a planet at the end of the movie. They cannot kill him or TWOK never happens.

It won’t be Khan.

142. sean - February 7, 2013

#132

2013 is not 1966.

143. Ahmed - February 7, 2013

@ 138. DiscoSpock – February 7, 2013

“Ahmed, MJ,
I suspect that these new MJ __fill-in-the-blankers are Stunkill, up to his old tricks again. We pretty much smoked out MJ Tucker as Stunkill, and now he’s reemerged here with the weird “K” names.”

Might be a good time for Anthony to set his Phaser to “kill” & eliminate Stunkill from the site for good!

144. Dismayed - February 7, 2013

It’s amazing that everyone here can accept a completely redesigned Botany Bay if it shows up in the movie, totally updated wardrobes, completely different stasis pods etc., but god forbid they change Khan’s ethnicity…. Honestly kind of drives me crazy….

145. Dismayed - February 7, 2013

I think it’s obviously khan, khan inspired, or some story line that is an echo that probably leads us into a full blown khan movie for the third one.

One thing that’s come to mind that I don’t recall seeing said before… What if Benicio del Torro didn’t turn down the job? What if the writers came up with a two movie story arc that reveals khan in the next movie and they locked Benicio in already so that he can show up in the final scene of the second movie… And to throw us all off had him tell the world that talks fell through due to money. Wouldn’t that be a heck of a reveal?

146. MJ Kelly - February 7, 2013

130 nope, and if MJ feels I was being to critical of him then accept my apologies.

I explained my screen name yesterday, but I will explain it again.
MJ Kelly(and you can google this) was the number morning show host in the tampa bay market for 18 years, since I sure as heck am not going to post my real name on here like so many also choose to do, I decided to have my screen name pay tribute to my favorite Morning show host.

End of story.

If the other person took my comment in a hurtful manner than as a man I apologize.

147. MJ Kelly - February 7, 2013

Disco spock(interesting name by the way) Ahmed, how can I put you at ease. just wanna join in the conversation thats all.

148. MJ Kelly - February 7, 2013

136 I am all for a unique sign in, and know for a fact that wordpress has that option.

149. MJ Kelly - February 7, 2013

65 not necessarily Kirk and crew traveled back to 20th century earth several times prior to the Eugenics wars, its quite possible one of those trips altered the timeline.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe this is going to be a khan story at all, I really think its going to be a Robert April story, but anyone of prime kirk and spocks trips to the past could have easily altered the past.

Or who is to say that Archers trip back to WWII era earth didn’t have some effect. Its quite possible we are going to see element set up that pay homage to the NX-01 and Crew more than the mention of the prized beagle

150. Curious Cadet - February 7, 2013

@45. The Truth,

Since Bob Orci confirmed Weller plays a new character and is not from canon, then he cannot be Capt. April.

Weller is NOT April.

151. MJKelly - February 7, 2013

150 Technically speaking April is not from Official Canon.

152. Geoscal - February 7, 2013

JOAcHIm is JOHn HArrIson. In this time line Robert April finds the Botany Bay and accidentally kills Kahn and Joachim joins star fleet with the goal of eventually destroying it as Kahn was like a father to him. In the prime time line Kahn vows to avenge Joachim but in this one the roles are reversed. Just a theory I had after reading the IDW Kahn series. So looking forward to this movie!

153. MJ - February 8, 2013

@150.

Kelly is correct. Since GR said The Animated Series is not canon, then April is not canon.

154. Aurore - February 8, 2013

It is not Joachim. Nor is it Khan.

…Might be some kind of “thing”…. possibly a human with technological enhancements.

The six million quatloo man, or something?….I do not know.

At any rate, hopefully, a well-written, (brand new) character to the “canon”.

I would love that….

155. captain_neill - February 8, 2013

I wont be happy if it turns out he is Khan.

Cumberbatch is wrong ethinicity and as good an actor he is he wil be inferior to Montalban.

156. Red Shirt Diaries - February 8, 2013

Face it, Khan is in this movie, I don’t think it’s Cumberbatch but i do think he will awaken Khan by the end of the movie to set up the next one.

157. LOFC_Ed - February 8, 2013

We will NOT find out who the enemy is! We have to see the movie and find out. I went to an advanced screening In Leicester Square for the 2009 movie and intend to do the same with this one, so I won’t have to worry about spoilers of the villain!

158. Red Shirt Diaries - February 8, 2013

Orci has confirmed its a canon character and they wanted to put the Botany Bay at the end of the last film. Read the writing on the wall people and stop being in denial!

159. oliver - February 8, 2013

No way would Cumberbatch be inferior to Montalban. I take great exception to that. He is a world class actor. Get real pleaseeee.

160. Uncle Protein - February 8, 2013

I hope it is Khan, for no other reason that I want Chris Pine to copy Shatners Kirk and scream “Ohhh, Khaaaaaan! Ohhh, Khaaaaan!”

161. Garth Faction - February 8, 2013

124:

Being able to shapeshift isn’t superhuman?! WTF?

If you can shapeshift, you can heighten your body. He can augment it himself! He could have used Khan as a template, if he wanted, to make his body better.. once you can shapeshift you can easily become superhuman, doing away with imperfections. And your argument would make Khan not superhuman either.

Garth fits everything.

To say “the episode doesn’t fit.” Well, this would not be a repeat of the episode. His objectives would change because time has changed!

162. cloudynow - February 8, 2013

this is the alternate timeline, so the botany bay is found by some other federation ship > Cumberman is one of the augments or somebody else, may be a scientist, or a minor in-canon charachter who knows about the augments and stuff, obsessed with superhumanity, enhancing himself upto that point somehow, and through his obsession, may be creating havoc in federation just trying to revive khan & others. too much bitses and pieces, yes.
i think the ponytail guy walking out of the cargo bay (?) in trailers is khan and this is the finale of the movie > we’ll have kahn (may be they approached del toro for the next movie?) in the next movie, at the 50th anniversary of Trek. Since kahn is considered the best villain in trek lore, it somehow fits to celebrate the 50th with him.

163. mechasalesman - February 8, 2013

Clearly Harrison is not Khan…

He is Khan’s insane forgotten rival, who was only awakened in the crazy parallel universe, THE EVIL MADMAN ZHAN!

164. JimGrant1701 - February 8, 2013

#17, #25: I too have changed it on IMDB and get a confirmation. It then get’s changed back to Khan.

165. Adolescent Nightmare - February 8, 2013

Khan vs. SMAUG

166. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#153: Roddenberry never said the animated series is non-canon. Roddenberry was a proponent of the animated series. It was his weasel hack of an assistant, Richard Arnold, who said that–and he was later fired for ineptitude. The animated series has been referenced in TNG, Enterprise and the 2009 film (which contains actual dialog from the cartoon).

167. chrisfawkes.com - February 8, 2013

@164 Same here.

168. Jenna - February 8, 2013

Does anyone really think JJ would tell EW anything, with his penchant for secrecy?

Also what’s the deal with Harrison’s weird spine in the new photo?

169. Captain Kurt - February 8, 2013

@ 162

Yes, I agree. BC is an augment (possibly a decendant of Kahn?) that never made the Botany Bay voyage. Del Toro is set up to be Kahn. See my posts 103 and 110.

The only point I will disagree with you is that the Botany Bay is not found by a Federation ship. I think it is found by the Klingons, and that is how they fit in the story.

170. USSEXETER - February 8, 2013

I really hope we don’t see Khan in the movie. JJ & Company created an alternate timeline so they wouldn’t be bound by canon, so why would you want to recreate an awesome story that was the perfectly done? You’ve got this new timeline to do anything, so lets remake Wrath Of Khan? LAME!!!

171. RenderedToast - February 8, 2013

Cumberbatch absolutely cannot be Khan. That’s just really dumb from a physical and audible perspective (neither looking nor sounding like the character) and would be evidence that this team cannot have a single original idea.

Might it still be a fun flick? Yes, I have no doubt it’ll be fun. I’ll probably enjoy it, but throughout I would be reminded that all the fan service, all the posts to this site, everything all of them say about respecting the canon whilst taking it it a new direction is all standard Hollywood lies and the sooner Abrams & Co. get away from the franchise the better.

172. Dr. Image - February 8, 2013

Ok- the Klingons find the BB and wack Khan in the first 10 min. JH is one of his minions who escapes and starts shit.
You heard it here first.

Just get the damn nacellecaps right this time… (Takin’ you back!)

173. Curious Cadet - February 8, 2013

@151. MJKelly,
“Technically speaking April is not from Official Canon.”

Where is the “technical” evidence that he is not canon?

Gene Roddenberry does not own Star Trek, therefore he is not the final arbitrator as to what is and is not canon. CBS, which does own Star Trek, currently includes TAS as part of its official canon database, and as such: April is both technically and in practice canon.

Either way, you are missing the very important DISTINCTION in what Orci said:

Weller plays a NEW character that Orci CREATED.

Therefore, it is impossible that Weller plays April since Orci most certainly did NOT CREATE the character of April.

http://trekmovie.com/2012/07/14/exclusive-interview-roberto-orci-reveals-star-trek-sequel-character-details-talks-title-post-production/

174. The Sinfonian - February 8, 2013

John Harrison is the son of Robert April and Sarah [nee Harrison] April. The Aprils were British/English, (like Malcolm Reed in ST: Enterprise)… so it makes perfect sense, that their son, John, speaks with a British accent. John Harrison was also a minor TOS redshirt, this is “in canon”. In the JJverse, John is quite aware that Pike bumped his father off the Constitution Project, when it was turned on its head to produce the supercruiser Enterprise.

Mystery solved.

Gatt is Khan. Weller is the captain of the secret civilian ship that John Harrison serves on, likely as Science or Medical Officer. They’re the civilian “think Blackwater (a/k/a Xe, a/k/a Academi)” ship sent to retrieve the Botany Bay, acting upon information from Spock Prime. Harrison was expected to do something unethical/Section 31-y with the Augments. He sees something rotten in Denmark/Starfleet. He gets injected with something (cordrazine? just a few drops) or breaks under the will of a not-yet-fully resuscitated Khan… and goes off the deep end.

175. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#174: Why did you say “(like Malcolm Reed in ST: Enterprise)”? What did that have to do with the point you were making?

176. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#174: No, John Harrison was not a minor TOS redshirt. The TOS character of Harrison never had a first name indicated.

177. Moputo Jones - February 8, 2013

#174: If he’s the sone of two people with the last name of April, why would his last name be Harrison?

Also, Harrison, never named “John”, in TOS was a person of color. The actor that played Harrison was Polynesian.

Your ideas, while creative, make no sense.

178. Michael - February 8, 2013

If I order the Kirk and Oops cover will I now get the Kirk and Spock cover regardless?

179. drumvan - February 8, 2013

Ok- the Klingons find the BB and wack Khan in the first 10 min. JH is one of his minions who escapes and starts shit.
You heard it here first.
_____________________________________________________

we’ve already seen the first 10 minutes (9 actually) and that didn’t happen. harrison is already established on earth trying to save the little girl. they would have to retread and tell the klingon/botany story later.

180. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#172: Actually, that’s a pretty commonly suggested theory. Sorry, you’re not first. :)

181. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#172: Plus, since we’ve already seen the first 10 minutes, we know that isn’t what occurs.

182. DrkMatter - February 8, 2013

It’s Kahn.
Forget what he looks like, it really has little to no bearing on anything in SciFi. A few strokes of the pen, and anything can be explained. And remember, this is JJ’s universe. And after the money the first one brought in, CBS will let JJ, pretty much do whatever he wants.

Del Toro was in talks to play the main villain. Del Toro has a very Khan look about him.
Cumberbatch sent JJ a video of his take on the character. They loved it so much, they rewrote the script.

And last but not least, The original Star Trek II was about Khan. The new Star Trek II, is about Khan.

It makes a sort of geek logic, I guess.

183. Anonymous Coward - February 8, 2013

Khan or not, I feel like I have seen this movie already.
Kirk & Co chase some terrorist guy around Earth (reasons won’t really matter halfway through this mess- Judging from ST09, Abrams doesn’t deal in nuance (or coherence))- they catch him or they don’t but I don’t feel there aren’t any storytelling surprises from here on out. .
If Cumberbatch turns out to be Khan, that would show an even lower lack of imagination from everyone involved than I thought possible, fans included.

184. Captain Kurt - February 8, 2013

Could you imagine the movie Dark Knight where the Joker gets killed in the first 10 minutes during the bank robbery, and we are introduced to John Harrison, a new criminal mastermind and Batman foil?

Ah, no. Kahn is not killed at the start of the movie (aside from the fact we all saw the start of the movie.)

185. sean - February 8, 2013

#144

Set design is not the same thing as ethnic identity. Hollywood has a history of white-washing, and even the original casting of Khan involved the old ‘all browns are interchangeable’ trope. Recasting a guy named Khan Singh as a white Brit would be pretty egregious.

186. Jack - February 8, 2013

Are the comic guys ‘connected to the film?’

187. The Sinfonian - February 8, 2013

@185: “If you’ve seen one Indo-European, you’ve seen ‘em all.” Wouldn’t put it past the supremes.

@184. Madeline Kahn dies in the first ten minutes. Well, by 2259, she’d be dead already.

@175. Malcolm Reed was British. As were Robert April and Sarah. We have precedent for someone with a strong British accent in Trek. That’s the point. And it’s the 23rd century, people’s last names can be anything. Oh, and Cumberbatch doesn’t to look like Veto who played TOS Harrison, any more than Chris Pine has to look like Shatner, etc.

188. The Sinfonian - February 8, 2013

@186. The “comic guys” have their stories approved by and in consultation Roberto Orci. His connection to the film is left to you to consider.

189. Jack - February 8, 2013

185. Agreed.

190. Mel - February 8, 2013

If he is not Khan himself, maybe he is a descendant of him with the same ideas. That would explain his strength and why he doesn’t look similar to Khan. There could have been some whites among his other forefathers, too.

191. Jack - February 8, 2013

April was British in some of the novels, no? But did Jimmy Doohan use an English accent for April’s voice in the cartoons? Which non-canon source will be more canonical than the other?

192. Basement Blogger - February 8, 2013

@ 161

Garth Faction,

Please read my post again. Yes, Garth has paranormal powers. But I said Garth did not demonstrate superhuman STRENGTH. To make my point, I just watched “Whom Gods Destroy.” Garth can shapeshift but that does not give him superhuman STRENGTH. Let’s look at two instances in the episode where there is no proof of super STRENGTH. .

1. Garth throws a tantrum. In the control room when he can;t get to beam him up, Garth goes nuts and starts to beat the control panels etc. He does no damage.

2. Garth and Kirk fist fight. If Garth had superhuman strength like Cumberbatch in the trailers, he could easily defeat Kirk. He doesn’t. In fact, he has to pick up a chair to use as a weapon.

Again, this is a wild episode. , If Garth is the villain in STID, he’s going to be insane. I can’t see lines delivered by Cumberbatch in a wild , illogical and surreal nature. I mean is BC going to crown himself and declare himself the master of the universe?

As far as the different universe, you still cling to the power Garth does have. He’s a shapeshifter. But you see he has to be insane since it was the people of Antos who taught him to shapeshift to heal himself because of injuries which led to the insanity.

You then make this comment, “And your argument would make Khan not superhuman either.” If I may return the favor. WTF?

Please watch Space Seed again. Khan is a superhuman. He has super strength. Again, let’s look at the evidence, shall we?

1. First we know Khan has been bred or grown to be an advanced human. But take a look at the scene where he’s in the brig. He literally forces the door open with his hands. He then throws the security guard like a doll.

2. Khan crushes phaser with bare hand. When Kirk enters engineering, Khan takes his phaser and cruses it with his bare hand.

3. The biggest piece of evidence. Khan at the forty five minute mark, says to Kirk that he is FIVE TIMES STRONGER than Kirk. In fact, Kirk must use a pipe to beat down Khan.

Of course, Khan also demonstrated his super strength in TWOK. He picks up Chekov with one hand. Picks up a beam of the Reliant and throws it aside.

And we can all agree that John Harrison has super strength. Beats the daylights out of Spock who is stronger than humans. Makes a long leap without hurting himself. Picks up a very large piece of debris and uses it like a club to whack a Klingon.

193. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#191: Yes, April was British in the cartoon.

194. Ensign RedShirt - February 8, 2013

Bob Orci must be reading this stuff and laughing his ass off, watching all of us twist ourselves into knots trying to figure it out. The way they’ve been able to keep major details under wraps is remarkable.

195. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

Guys, come on, let’s have a modicum of common sense, OK?

* He’s not Khan.
* He’s not Mitchell.
* He’s not Garth.
* He’s not Harry Mudd.
* He’s not Kodos.
* He’s not a mutant tribble.
* He’s not the Salt Vampire.
* He’s not Q.
* He’s not Janice Lester.
* He’s not a Borg.
* He’s not a Pakled.
* He’s not Sherlock Holmes.
* He’s not Dr. Smith in human carrot form.

He’s John Harrison. And though that may be an alias, it is very, very clearly NONE of the above.

196. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

195. BatlethInTheGroin – February 8, 2013

He’s John Harrison. And though that may be an alias, it is very, very clearly NONE of the above.

*******************************************

Come on, we’ve been over this before.

“TrekMovie.com: OK, I want to try and get something out of you that is actually new about the movie. Kind of like you did on the radio show but I will name a guest actor in the sequel and you will say if they are playing a new character you created or one from the original Star Trek canon.

Roberto Orci: OK, I’ll play.

[After going through all the new cast members]

TrekMovie.com: OK and the big one, Benedict Cumberbatch.

Roberto Orci: Canon.”

http://sherlockology.tumblr.com/post/27250357823/bc-mitchell-denial

So, since there IS no John Harrison canon character, only a Harrison character, it’s reasonable to hold the belief that it’s a canon character not named Harrison. And of all canon characters, Khan most perfectly fits the description provided of “John Harrison.” And when you combine that with the fact that there has been numerous hints (especially the current ones on the official phone app), you really can’t say that he’s “clearly” not Khan.

Personally, I like this whole thing. I’ve gone from Khan, to an Augment, to some guy named John Harrison, and now I’m back to Khan. And before May, I expect to have had at least two other lead guesses.

197. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#196: Clearly, he’s not Khan.

198. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

192. Basement Blogger

1. First we know Khan has been bred or grown to be an advanced human. But take a look at the scene where he’s in the brig. He literally forces the door open with his hands. He then throws the security guard like a doll.

*******************

No, no, no, FIRST he summoned all of his yogic power, sucking in his breath and pressing his hands together, THEN he opened the door with his bare hands!

That’s very important to note, because it’s hilarious.

Then, when he woke up the other augments, they did the same sort of exercises. It looked like they were all preparing to give birth *LOL*

I tell you, if I see “Khan” do that in this movie, I’ll be a very happy man. *LOL*

199. Riker's Dad - February 8, 2013

It must be difficult for Anthony to deny news that has been confirmed to him lol

200. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

197. BatlethInTheGroin – February 8, 2013
#196: Clearly, he’s not Khan.

***************************

How so? Strong, brilliant, “better.” Sounds like Khan with me. Looks like Khan, with plastic surgery to conceal his identity and join SF

201. sean - February 8, 2013

#196

How does Khan perfectly fit, though? Khan wasn’t a Starfleet officer that turned on Starfleet (and it would take a pretty convoluted story to take the Khan character there) nor was he a white British dude.

A descendant of Khan? Possible. A fellow superman who escaped separately from the Botany Bay? Possible. A guy who was illegally engineered based on Eugenics research? Possible.

We still don’t know who Peter Weller is playing, and I think that’s because his identity will be a big reveal.

202. captain spock - February 8, 2013

my question is could John harrison have been one of the augment embryo from cold station 12…Star trek Enterprise tv series if so that could make him I’m reaching abit now Khans Father maybe?or khan him self or i hate to say this possable DR.Soong relative think of the possabitilys its an alterenate universe anything can happen right.

cold station 12 synops
A space station crew is held hostage as Dr. Arik Soong and his Augments work to obtain hundreds of Augment embryos in hopes of creating an Augment population.

they did have an two part (ulternate universe )episold from that series in the mirror darkly Pt 1 & 2

so is it possable that in the altternate universe time line in the tv series star trek Enterprise it could be the same universe the JJ Abrams verse resides. yes or no,or they can go from one time line into another & go back to one time line all gether

203. n1701ncc - February 8, 2013

From looking at the trailers … I think that Pike dies in this movie and that is the missing man fly over we see in the trailers is for Pike at his funeral.

As for the villian … Gary Mitchell could cure people, have super human power and Kirk may have asked the question because he no longer regonizes his friend.

Finally it is not Khan and I would be disappointed if it was. Casting is everything and do you really think that the Star Trek fan base will accept an English actor as Khan… Really think about it.

Look at how the crew was cast the actors are as close as possible to the orginal crew…especailly Spock , McCoy and Sulu… I do not think that JJ and Bob O would totally throw out the cannon to put an English actor in the place of Ricardo Montablan.

204. Garth Faction - February 8, 2013

192
He didn’t show it doesn’t mean he can’t do it if he is trained properly. If he can change the shape of his body, he can augment himself. He’s clearly superhuman and that would just be something he could learn.

205. holly - February 8, 2013

He’s not ANY old English actor. Imagine its the 1930′s and Laurence Olivier is available for your film. Its Khan.

206. Gary S. - February 8, 2013

Something I have always wondered about .
If the TOS Khan had Superhuman Strength,
How is it possible that three hits with a pipe will knock him down?
And Kirk outmatched Khan with Strategy and Guile in TWOK.
So, I am not seeing The Superior Intellect.

207. holly - February 8, 2013

You must have noticed Cumebrbatch’s spine is sticking out of his top. Is it protruding because he’s deformed due to genetic tampering.

208. Superman - February 8, 2013

*Sigh*

It’s not Khan.

It’s Joaquin.

Joaquin is the Spanish form of “Joachim,” a Hebrew word translated into Greek as “Joanan” and English as “Jonathan.”

John Harrison.

For all we know, Prime Khan called John “Joaquin,” while his name was always Jonathan.

And Joachin is a canon character.

Case closed.

209. SB - February 8, 2013

I haven’t read all the comments for this piece, but I’m sure there’s someone out there who claims one of the following…

• “K-H-A-N” is actually an anagram for “Nhak,” which is the Urdu word for the month of April.

* 23 seconds into the Japanese teaser trailer, Chris Pine has a piece of lint in his hair that conclusively proves it’s Gary Mitchell.

• Cumberbatch steps into a mud puddle during the Klingon sequence. Mud. Mudd. Harry Mudd. It’s so OBVIOUS.

210. Decker - February 8, 2013

Shaka, when the walls fell.

211. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

Not Khan. Nope. Not even a remote chance of that.

212. Travis - February 8, 2013

Wow! Look who finally said Benedict Cumberpatch playing John Harrison is a ” Alias “!!! How many times do I have to say that Benedict is playing KHAN! The evidence has been shown with proof… Duh!! I can tell by Benedict’s tone of who the villain is and I believe STID will be rockin the movie world!

Also too a word of advice from a life long ORIGINAL SERIES fan… Never trust what JJ Abrams is going to say…. After all what was that statement he said about not directing Star Wars Episode 7??….. Yeah I cracked the code!!!

213. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

201. sean – February 8, 2013
#196

How does Khan perfectly fit, though? Khan wasn’t a Starfleet officer that turned on Starfleet (and it would take a pretty convoluted story to take the Khan character there) nor was he a white British dude.

***********************************************

With the USS Kelvin incident, it’s safe to say that much of Starfleet’s ship traffic was altered. They didn’t know what the Narada was, or whether it was a vanguard for a bigger issue. With altered traffic, the Botany Bay, which had been floating around for a couple hundred years, could have been found much earlier. It also could have been found by Klingons or Romulans, whose fleet patterns and espionage units would have been changed in response to altered Federation patterns, and their own ignorance to what the Narada was.

So if the Botany Bay is found earlier, and if it’s found by someone less competent than the Enterprise crew, he could escape, acclimate himself to the “modern” world, and plot a takeover of sorts.

And really, in the Federation, the major hindrance to any plans he had, or the major asset to his plans would be Starfleet. So by joining Starfleet, he can work to dismantle Starfleet from within. All this would take is a plastic surgery kit, which you could probably buy from Walmart in the future, a false identity as “John Harrison”, which can probably be done through hacking or buying on the black market, and faking a British accent to go along with his backstory, which if Madonna can do, Khan could definately do.

And as for all that sounding convoluted, it’s only convoluted for fans. This can be explained WITHOUT showing the backstory by a simple, brief, expository like this:

Kirk: Grrr……you’re not Harrison at all, you’re….you’re….

Harrison/Khan: “Khan Noonien Singh. I was born the product of genetic engineering in late 20th century Earth. I, and others like me, ascended as the natural ruling class of the planet. But like all paradises, it was temporary. We escaped in a sleeper ship, awakened 20 years ago by a (Starfleet/Klingon) crew. Some of us were captured, some of us were able to escape. And now…we will have our REVENGE! *does the yogic breathing, hand clapping thing, then karate chops something hard*

If you read that aloud, it doesn’t take very long to say. And in the hands of a good actor, it can come off pretty well. Actually, I wonder if the expository bit that Pine said he would have had a problem with, but Cumberbatch didn’t, was a Khan backstory.
***************************

A descendant of Khan? Possible. A fellow superman who escaped separately from the Botany Bay? Possible. A guy who was illegally engineered based on Eugenics research? Possible.

We still don’t know who Peter Weller is playing, and I think that’s because his identity will be a big reveal.

*******************************
But if we go by the notion that Cumberbatch’s character is canon, and Weller’s is not, then he can’t be a descendant of Khan, he can’t be a non-Botany Bay escapee that wasn’t shown on the series, and he can’t be an illegally engineered guy that hasn’t been on the series. And Weller can’t be “revealed” because we won’t know him.

214. ScottC - February 8, 2013

213. LogicalLeopard : very plausible explanation why it could be Khan.

215. Spock Prime - February 8, 2013

It is confirmed that Spock Prime is back in this movie. Spock Prime realize for the universe to go back on track, he has to die. John Harrison is Gary 7′s boss and he is sent to get Spock Prime and had to fight Klingons to find something Nero has left with them. Capt. Robert April was the one who rescued Harrison trying to escape the Klingons and brought him to Earth.
Harrison majorly upset that he was not trying to escape from the Klingons but wanted to kill them off and then the Gorns and Tholians. Leaving Romulans left as the main (Alpha Quadrant) aggressors of the Federation so more Romulans appeared in the movies. Spock Prime with Keenser and cupcake saves the day by ….. I will not spoil the end.

216. Craiger - February 8, 2013

#213 – I like your theory, as I have said before I think JJ is now pissed that Khan possibly being the bad guy is getting out their and he wanted people to be surprised at who John Harisson really is, however If Khan applied to Starfleet Academy wouldn’t Starfleet have Khan’s file on record and know what Khan looks like?

217. MJ - February 8, 2013

@173 “Where is the “technical” evidence that he is not canon?

Gene Roddenberry does not own Star Trek, therefore he is not the final arbitrator as to what is and is not canon. CBS, which does own Star Trek, currently includes TAS as part of its official canon database, and as such: April is both technically and in practice canon. Either way, you are missing the very important DISTINCTION in what Orci said: Weller plays a NEW character that Orci CREATED. Therefore, it is impossible that Weller plays April since Orci most certainly did NOT CREATE the character of April.”

Sorrry, but you have completely misinterpreted this. Two points here on why:

(1) First point – you are wrong about GR and canon — GR has the first word on what is canon — period! If GR says its canon, then its canon. If GR says its not canon, its not canon.

And so, to be perfectly clear — The Animated Series in NOT canon, because that is what Gene decreed. Case closed!

(2) Point Two. The following is EXACTLY what Orci said regarding Weller and canon:

“TrekMovie.com: OK, I want to try and get something out of you that is actually new about the movie. Kind of like you did on the radio show but

“TrekMovie.com: Peter Weller”

“Roberto Orci: New.”

So, in the above, Orci is specifically asked by movie: “I will name a guest actor in the sequel and you will say if they are playing a new character you created or one from the original Star Trek canon.” So here, Orci has to pick from one of these two choices only — and so, if the character mentioned is not one from the original Star Trek canon” (and note the very specific phrase: “ORIGINAL Star Trek canon”), than Orci’s only other response can be to say: “New.”

CONCLUSION

As a result of this, based on the way the question was asked, Orci correctly stated “New,” does not rule out at all that Captain Robert April, a character introduced in The Animated Series — which is not canon (or at least not “ORIGINAL canon”) as defined by GR — so this does not rule out April as a non-original canon character in the new movie. Orci answered the question the only we he could answer it.

218. gingerly - February 8, 2013

Obligatory:

IT’S NOT KHAN, GOSH!!

219. gingerly - February 8, 2013

Listen to Superman.

Also me, because that’s what I believe as well. Check Cumberbatch’s lapel in the preview.

It matches’ Joachim (or Joachin)’s from Wrath of Khan perfectly.

And the actor resembles the guy who played him in Khan.

Now, the jury is still out on Robocop. But I truly hope he isn’t Khan either, because you know being 2013, we should be over whitewashing by now.

It certainly didn’t do Cloud Atlas any favors.

220. sean - February 8, 2013

#213

Sorry, but what you’ve described is *incredibly* convoluted. And not just for fans, for anyone watching the film. I don’t buy that story in the slightest. And I doubt they’d come up with something that complicated and then just brush it away with a single line of exposition.

As for canon vs non-canon – if he’s playing on the other Botany Bay survivors, he is canon. There were 72 of them in Space Seed, after all.

And Weller’s identity is clearly a reveal of some kind, otherwise they’d have just named him already and moved on. Even if he’s a non-canon character, there’s something there they don’t want us to know yet.

221. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

@214

Thank you!

@ 215

If Khan applied to Starfleet Academy, they would not have Khan’s complete profile on record. I think either Marla McGivers stated in “Space Seed” that records were incomplete at that time (probably due to the wars), and they thought that Khan might have been born in Northern India. Off topic, that’s an interesting point, because for all we know, Khan could have been born in England like many people of Indian descent, and moved to India (a country with a billion potential soldiers) to plot a takeover.

But back to the subject, I doubt Khan’s DNA would be on record. Right now, the only people who have DNA on record are usually criminals. If there’s a DNA record for Khan, it would probably have only belonged to the researchers who “made” him, and probably lost, destroyed, etc. Which makes it easy for him to create a false identity, tying his DNA to “John Harrison.”

But Khan’s biggest problem in joining Starfleet would be standard physicals. Khan’s physique is different than ours. Bones scanned him, and figured that he was 5 times stronger than us. Bashir got around medical scans, but then again, Bashir had VERY minor physical enhancements, enough that he would show no different, than…I don’t know, a professional darts player. His only physical enhancements were hand eye coordination, I think.

But, this is also something that can probably be gotten around. Khan stated that he was something of an engineer, I believe, so he could either make something or buy something that would create a false bio sign. And regardless, this is an issue only for bulletin boards, the average viewing public wouldn’t consider it.

222. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

Sorry, that last to 216, not 215

223. K-7 - February 8, 2013

MJ,

I find it interesting that in that interview that Anthony used the term “original canon.” One might conclude that he and Orci might have set that question up in advance the way that Orci wanted it to be asked; i.e. so that Orci could be truthful that April was not “original” canon.

Great deduction!!!

224. Spock Prime - February 8, 2013

Spock Prime did inform Star Fleet of all the dangers they faced in his timeline. He cheated a lesson learned from Kirk Prime. So It can’t be Kahn. When the timeline was altered so were some people in it. Carol Marcus Prime was not a part of Starfleet but in here she is. Harry Mudd is too for all we know. Praxis was not the fall of the Klingon Empire but was the Tribbles. We all know when ST-TMP came out it was explained that the Tribbles infected or was the cause of the strange foreheads the Klingons now have, hence the helmets to prevent the spread of the epidemic. But in this JJ-verse the tribbles are far more than what they appear. Keenser was experimenting with one on Vega Delta and created a Wookie for SW ep VII.

225. Craiger - February 8, 2013

#221 – Bashir was an Augment and he got into Starfleet. Unless some Augments can have advanced minds and not strength? Bashir was able to hide his Augmented abilities.

226. MJ - February 8, 2013

@223. Thanks K-7. Yea, I think Curious Cadet in post @173 failed to perceive the very specific working on the question on “ORIGINAL canon”. Using “original” with “canon” implies the older traditional Gene Roddenberry-decried definition of canon, which does include The Animated Series as canon.

227. cw - February 8, 2013

I haven’t read all the comments for this piece, but I’m sure there’s someone out there who claims one of the following…

• “K-H-A-N” is actually an anagram for “Nhak,” which is the Urdu word for the month of April.

* 23 seconds into the Japanese teaser trailer, Chris Pine has a piece of lint in his hair that conclusively proves it’s Gary Mitchell.

• Cumberbatch steps into a mud puddle during the Klingon sequence. Mud. Mudd. Harry Mudd. It’s so OBVIOUS.

Okay, that was the most awesome shiz I have read yet. Bravo sir.

When they say ‘canon’ you all just jump to the conclusion its from the TOS show or TOS movies. How do you know he isn’t someone from the 2009 movie? Someone nobody character that had a cousin die on one of those ships and went batshit on everyone? And superhuman strength? I saw him jump a long way, I have seen Neil Armstong do it too…….how do we know they aren’t on a low G planet or a ship with the gravity off? HOW DO YOU KNOW???

228. LogicalLeopard - February 8, 2013

219:

Joachim is a good option, and he does resemble him. Perhaps he’s going to rescue Khan, and that’s the “family” thing. It gets better when you follow the logic that Joachim was possibly born on Ceti Alpha V. Some have pointed out that Joachim appeared to be very much younger than Khan, so either he’s a Botany Bay augment with a babyface gene, or he is part of the BB crew’s attempt to populate an empty world.

Here’s an interesting theory that I think I and several other people have kind of touched upon earlier. The Botany Bay is found by the Klingons years back. When they find out who and what they are, they capture them and put them in custody in a place like Rura Penthe, or something more private, to experiment on them and maybe learn how to improve their own augment research that was abandoned after the bumpstopper fiasco in Enterprise. Joachim is born to Khan and another female augment, or created from DNA splicing,and escapes. He joins SF as a means to get his “family back”, and maybe learns that SF knows about the Botany Bay being recovered, and doesn’t care. So, he detonates the fleet.

Or better yet, the Botany Bay is found, Khan and some other augments escape and go underground, and Joachim is born. Later, Starfleet figures out who they are and what they’re trying to do, and arrests all of them, except Joachim, who they don’t know about or manages to slip away. He joins starfleet to up his access so he can discover what happened to his family, and get them back. His tinkering around on Qo’noS is just to cause another distraction to Starfleet. Detonate the ships in orbit, arrange for other ships to be on the border with the Klingons, do whatever you want on Earth, like spring your family from the cold storage units.

I like the Khan theory better, but Joachim could work.

229. AJ - February 8, 2013

224:

“We all know when ST-TMP came out it was explained that the Tribbles infected or was the cause of the strange foreheads the Klingons now have, hence the helmets to prevent the spread of the epidemic.”

Is that a joke?

230. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

Did you know that the middle name “Tiberius” came from the animated series? as did the name of the Vulcan capital city “ShiKhar and most important Spock’s mother’s maiden name of “Grayson” came from the animated series. The scene where Spock was bullied in the 2009 Star Trek Movie is a homage to the ST-TAS series episode “Yesteryear”. Roddenberry refused to give all creative control to Paramount but was not against the animated series. His name does appear on the credits as well. The animated series also included most of the original voices of all characters including Cyrano Jones and Harry Fenton Mudd.

231. Elias Javalis - February 8, 2013

The more i look into the covers the more i believe that John Harrison is kirks brother johny. Perhaps he had been augmented in some way To avenge starfleet. Bitterness..? Alteration of his later name?

232. Sherlock - February 8, 2013

230

I agree that the Animated Series is underrated and should be regarded as canon. However, there’s no way today’s Trek fandom will step any further than ‘Jar Jar Abrams ruined Star Trek’, ‘Nemesis ruined Star Trek’, ‘Enterprise ruined Star Trek’, ‘Harve Bennett ruined Star Trek’, ‘DS9 ruined Star Trek’ and thus discourage anyone from participating in producing a new movie, let alone a new series

233. Major Havoc - February 8, 2013

I remember, sometime after ST-TMP came out, I read somewhere that the reasons for the new look of the Klingons is the introduction of the tribbles that is why the Klingons hate Kirk so much.

234. Major Havoc - February 8, 2013

Star Trek – Captain Worf TV series is confirmed. Google it.

235. Major Havoc - February 8, 2013

And I heard William Riker is a horny women in this altered universe.

236. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

I don’t think the cast of TOS (Nimoy, Nichols, Takei, etc..) would do a project (the animated series) without the okay from GR. They were loyal to him as well as obligated for the responsibility they received as characters.

237. Major Havoc - February 8, 2013

I really think John Harrison changes his name to John Harriman and commands the Enterprise-B.

238. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

The ST-TAS episode “Yesteryear” Spock used the Guardian of Forever to go back in time to save himself (young Spock) from a Vulcan Ritual. In that series we got to see young Spock’s pet Sehlat named “I’Chaya”.

239. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

Finnegan, Kirk’s rival in Starfleet Academy. Surely he is still in Jar Jar’s universe.

240. Major Havoc - February 8, 2013

#227 cw

* 23 seconds into the Japanese teaser trailer, Chris Pine has a piece of lint in his hair that conclusively proves it’s Gary Mitchell.

That was not lint that was rice.

241. Sherlock - February 8, 2013

237

That would include two Enterprises to get fried next film… ;)
Haven’t we all lost an Enterprise last year already??

242. Jean Luc Pickard - February 8, 2013

History will remember the name “ENTERPRISE”.

243. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#217: Roddenberry did NOT say the animated series was not canon. Richard Arnold did–and he was fired for incompetency, and for pissing everyone off. Roddenberry was a proponent of the animated series. He’s also been dead for 20 years, and since then, TNG, Enterprise and the 2009 film have all referenced it. Heck, Enterprise even had a Kzinti episode planned for season five.

244. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

The bottom line: Those claiming Roddenberry de-canonized the animated series are simply incorrect.

245. Adam - February 8, 2013

Could the canon villain actually be Peter Weller’s character? There may be more than 1 bad guy…

246. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

I think it’s pretty much well-accepted that are two villains, yes.

247. Great bird of the Galaxy - February 8, 2013

Canon was considered by GR as: to what each individual imagined it to be.
GR wanted all fans to imagine the future as being more than just what it is.
So canon could be anything especially in an altered universe. Gene loved the theory of different dimensions as well as different universes and realities. He understood the that there is no constant in this time and universe except our ignorance to not accept it.

248. Great bird of the Galaxy - February 8, 2013

If you look in wikipedia under “Star Trek Animated Series” and Star Trek Canon” it says it all.

249. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

Spock’s love for Uhura is not canon. So why does Spock Prime have to suffer? Spock Prime loved Zarabeth and had a son “Zar” with her. Again because of the Guardian of forever.

250. MJ - February 8, 2013

correctoin on my post @226:

@223. Thanks K-7. Yea, I think Curious Cadet in post @173 failed to perceive the very specific working on the question on “ORIGINAL canon”. Using “original” with “canon” implies the older traditional Gene Roddenberry-decried definition of canon, which does NOT include The Animated Series as canon.

251. Ted C - February 8, 2013

I have now come to so hate the word Khan I may never be able to watch Space Seed or ST II again. Enough already.

252. DX7 - February 8, 2013

Found this over at AICN sounds interesting , but also bogus, since his introduction sounds similar to most “fake” plot posts:

I’ve seen a close to finished print of the film. I’m connected with the crew (can’t say how for obvious reasons) and wanted to be first to get this out:

Cumberbatch plays Khan…..but not how you think. At the beginning of the film, for about 7 1/2 minutes, we get to see grand highlights of the Eugenics Wars, which were fought during and on what appears to be early to mid 21st century Earth. I believe this has been revised form the 1990′s of the Original Series.

Cumberbatch plays John Harrison, who is given the code name Khan, and is a terrorist who is genetically engineered to be perfect….mentally, physically, in every way. There are about 500 of them and they were created to work as spies, soldiers, etc. for various governments. They rebel against those governments under Harrison/Khan’s guidance, believing that they are demi-gods and should be the new masters of the world, join together and take control of a third world country’s nukes, and nearly decimate the planet following a stand-off. ‘Khan’ and his group are killed, but their genetic material is saved….put on ice so to speak. Not sure if this nuclear was is referenced as the one that preceded discovery of warp drive in First Contact, but it seems so.

Jump ahead to the 23rd century where Peter Weller plays a scientist who believes he can clone Khan but tweak his DNA to remove the rebellious nature. Weller’s character’s name is Singh. He has a giant ego, and against the better judgement of Starfleet’s science corp., which includes Carol Marcus, he clones Harrison, who is to be trained and used for sensitive missions. We see one of these missions against the Klingons. During the mission, he regains his genetic memory of the 21st century Khan and goes AWOL. He begins to commit terrorist acts against Earth (the most spectacular being an attack on Starfleet that entails crashing a starship into hq.) for revenge due to the loss of his wife and ‘family’. Kirk and company get called into action to capture or kill him. Marcus and Kirk are romantically involved and Khan’s actions kill Marcus. The mission becomes personal for Kirk. All of this plays against the philosphical debate between Spock and McCoy as to whether they should kill him or bring him in as the human race is responsible for him.

In all, a great movie with a very different tone from the first. This one feels more like original Trek.

And I did warn you there would be spoilers.

My questions…

How does Robert April relate to this plot ? What about Noel Clarke and his daughter ? What’s the purpose of Harrison being given the code name Khan ? Unless he’s doing an Artemis Gordon disguise in India somewhere. Plus, we’ve already seen the first 10 minutes, so the Eugenics Wars Scenario can’t be at the beginning of the film.

Well see.

253. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#248: Keep in mind that you just cited Wikipedia–an information source that can never be trusted. So much of what is on Wiki is wrong.

254. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#250: Why do you keep saying that Gene Roddenberry called the animated series non-canon? He did no such thing. That was Richard Arnold, who was eventually fired for incompetency. Roddenberry was a proponent of the animated series. You are simply incorrect about this.

255. MJ - February 8, 2013

@243, Not only did Roddenberry view the animated series as not canon, this even came up in a discussion I had with him in the late 1970′s. I spent a 4-day weekend with Gene and others in DC in 1977, and he shared his general disdain for the animated series with our group. He did not consider it canon…period!

256. Craiger - February 8, 2013

What if the scene we see of Cumberbatch on the Klingon homeworld is Khan escaping from their after the Klingons find the Botany Bay first. The Klingons attempt to revive them on the Klingon homeworld and the first one is Khan.

257. Basement Blogger - February 8, 2013

As for the Joachim Faction, they have a better argument than the Garth Faction. Joachim is one of Khan’s augments. That would explain John Harrison’s super strength. That would still make STID a Khancentric story. Sorry for that. I still think it’s Khan.

But could John Harrison be from another Star Trek series? I can’t think of one character off hand.

Another question is Peter Weller’s CEO. I bet he’s got a pivotal part in the movie. My guess is that he’s the guy that defrosts Khan. Maybe he’s the son of John Paxton (Star Trek: Enterprise “Terra Prime”) , who was a terrorist that wanted to rid the earth of aliens. He defrosts Khan to use him to fulfill his father’s wishes. Look, it’s fun to speculate.

258. Rose (as in Keachick) - February 8, 2013

The TAS does not have to be canon for the present writers to use some of the stories and characters told in TAS for the purposes of doing this new Star Trek movie. However, once whoever/whatever gets put into STID (whether they be new, from a non-canon TAS or from a canon TOS or Enterprise), then that becomes canon.

Frankly, I do not see what the argument is about. It is silly.

259. Great bird of the Galaxy - February 8, 2013

#253

“an information source that can never be trusted.”

As with this topic of canon.

Once this movie comes out it becomes the viewer’s imagination to decide if it is canon or not. Jar jar Abram’s first Star trek was also a big battle field for trekies and trekkers in the belief of what was canon and what was not.

Orci was a great ST fan and Abram was not. So it could go either way. And what Orci considers canon many of us may or may not agree.

My point is what ever “Star Trek” movies, tv shows, comics, books, etc.. that were created were accepted and rejected by fans but now exists. It is done and is there as physical evidence of entertainment for all whiners.

I would consider a new enemy just as great as a new Khan. Hey it’s Trek not Wars.

260. Great bird of the Galaxy - February 8, 2013

# 254

“#250: Why do you keep saying that Gene Roddenberry called the animated series non-canon? He did no such thing. That was Richard Arnold, who was eventually fired for incompetency. Roddenberry was a proponent of the animated series. You are simply incorrect about this.”

You’re comment is also in Wikipedia. So what does that say?

261. MJ - February 8, 2013

@257. I’d rate it a 90% chance based on what we know now that Peter Weller is playing Robert April.

262. MJ - February 8, 2013

@258 “Frankly, I do not see what the argument is about. It is silly.”

To put it simply, if in STID, Weller is playing Captain April, then:

1. If TAS is considered “original canon”, then Bob Orci lied to Anthony in that interview.

2. If TAS is NOT considered “original canon”, then Bob Orci did NOT lie to Athony in that interview.

And since I have conclusively shown that TAS is not “original canon,” Bob did not to us, and his reputation will be fine when and if we see Peter Weller playing Captain Robert April in STID on 15 May.

That is what this argument is about. So you see, it is kind of important.

263. Great bird of the Galaxy - February 8, 2013

#255

Paramount and GR’s response to the success in syndication of the original live action series and fan pressure for a Star Trek revival led to The Animated Series . Why would he put his name on the credits. Plus he was one of two Executive Producers of the series the other being D.C. Fontana who all fans should know.

264. MJ - February 8, 2013

@263. You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion, however, is based on actually recalling GR discuss the animated series, and it was clear to me that he did not think highly of it.

265. Red Shirt Diaries - February 8, 2013

#264. Great Bird,

Gene “put his name” on Season 3 of TOS as well, but it is well documented that he largely “checked out” on TOS Series 3 to prove a personal point against the studio.

266. NuFan - February 8, 2013

251

But I love the name Khan. I love when it appears in Hollywood trade papers that can’t be erased by the canon police. I also love that IMDB is not allowing the canon police to delete the name Khan.

It is a lovely name. All of my future children will be named Khan.

267. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

# 264
I never implied that he disliked TAS. He just never took it seriously as he did with TOS. As stated by D.C. Fontana.

http://trekmovie.com/2007/07/22/dc-fontana-on-tas-canon-and-sybok/

268. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

#264
In other words I agree with you but I don’t agree with you. lol

269. MJ - February 8, 2013

@267. OK, I think you and I misunderstood each other — I think we are in agreement on this topic then?

270. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

#269

I guess We’re Right or wrong….

271. Roddenberry Prime - February 8, 2013

Well I guess this movie Kirk screams:

JOOOOOOOHHHHHNNNN!!!!

272. ME!! - February 8, 2013

Has it perhaps occurred that the person responsible for typing that up was referencing the fact that this is the “new” Star Trek with a “new” story/character relationship on the order of the classic “Kirk vs. Khan” one?

To put it into perspective, the same thing could have been said about Picard and the Borg or Picard and Shinzon…the “new Kirk & Khan”….in other words, this is the new version of the old story/relationship/rivalry.

273. gingerly - February 8, 2013

Just so you guys can see what I’m talking about.

Check Harrison’s lapel in this photo:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_men35rPTzn1re4elro1_1280.png

Now, check Joachim’s from Wrath of Khan:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_men35rPTzn1re4elro2_1280.png

Similar design, no?

274. ME!! - February 8, 2013

As for the TAS vs TOS thing with Roddenberry, Roddenberry thought of TAS as being canon at the time it was being done. Years later, he felt it wasn’t up to par with TOS (he was perhaps embarrassed by the fact it was a Saturday morning kids show in hindsight after creating the very successful TNG series) and so he stated the only canon episode of TAS was Yesteryear. After Roddenberry’s death, the people responsible for Star Trek decided TAS was canon afterall.

TAS is now considered the final two years of the five year mission and they ARE canon.

275. Xeos - February 8, 2013

274.
Is there a ‘source’ for this? As far as I know, and the consensus of multiple online Trek communities, is that TAS in its entirety is not canon.

TrekCore, TrekBBS, etc, the majority opinion is that TAS is not canon.

I personally have never watched it, i can’t get over the budget style 70s animation.

276. ME!! - February 8, 2013

@273: So?

Baron Karza from The Micronauts is a “similar design” to Darth Vader.

I just don’t get the whole “Oh my goodness!! One piece of his clothing looks slightly similar to a part of this other character’s costume!! It’s HIM!!”

Silly, ridiculous, lame attempt at trying to make a connection.

If Harrison has a connection to Khan and the Botany Bay crew, fine. I have no real problem with that. I’d rather it NOT be, but I can deal with it if it’s done in a very original and unique way so as to not be a literal, “I’m Khan in disguise” thing which I seriously doubt is the case. My take on it is he’s either genetically related to one or more of them, he’s a brain-washed (to his captors) one of them intended to be used as an agent, or he’s genetically engineered based on the work done by the people responsible for Khan and crew. Or, he’s got nothing to do with any of the above and Abrams, Orci & company are having one hell of a fun time with all of you.

277. ME!! - February 8, 2013

I must also remind you that Simon Pegg stated, rather angrily, that he’s “NOT Khan!” and there’s been some laughs shared about how people involved know the truth and find all the speculation amusing which would tend to tell me that you’re all wrong.

278. MJ - February 8, 2013

@277. Wow, that’s incredibly compelling evidence.

Sorry everyone. It’s not Khan. I was completely wrong.

:-)) lol

279. MJ - February 8, 2013

@274. You do not get to “rule” on this. Your pronouncements are meaningless. You are correct that Yesteryear was subsequently canonized, but that is the only single kernel of truth in your failed attempt to hold court and make pronouncements here like you are Gene Roddenberry or something. I knew the guy!

Nice try though!

280. Anthony Pascale - February 8, 2013

Roddenberry Prime/Great bird of the Galaxy/Jean Luc Pickard/Major Havoc/Spock Prime
banned for spamming and multiple names

goodbye

281. MJ - February 8, 2013

@280. Sounds like this dude was “the Sybil of Trekmovie.com.”

:-)

282. Michael Hall - February 8, 2013

“As for the TAS vs TOS thing with Roddenberry, Roddenberry thought of TAS as being canon at the time it was being done. Years later, he felt it wasn’t up to par with TOS (he was perhaps embarrassed by the fact it was a Saturday morning kids show in hindsight after creating the very successful TNG series) and so he stated the only canon episode of TAS was Yesteryear. After Roddenberry’s death, the people responsible for Star Trek decided TAS was canon afterall.”

That does indeed jibe with my memories of the man and what he was saying and writing at the time. However. . .

“TAS is now considered the final two years of the five year mission and they ARE canon.”

I’ll disagree with you there as no one gets to decide for anyone else what is to be considered ‘real’ Star Trek, which is why the whole ‘canon’ argument is the kind of nerd fetish spoofed for best effect on shows like “The Big Bang Theory.” It’s a franchise that includes several TV series, a number of feature films, one cartoon series, and various books, computer games, and other product tie-ins. Some parts of it are definitely more ‘official’ than others, but what you include in your own personal Trek universe (I’m happy to drop “And the Children Shall Lead” and include New Voyages’ “World Enough and Time” in mine) is entirely up to each fan, as it should be.

283. DiscoSpock - February 8, 2013

#282 What, Michael Hall, no name-calling today for people who disagree with you?

Still laughing a bit on you finally losing an argument here over your Julian Assange apologist shtick.

284. Gary S - February 8, 2013

273. wern’t there a lot of people here who thought Alice Eve was playing Sally Kellermans character from “Where No Man has Gone Before” because Alice had a hairstyle and uniform that matched Kellermans character ?
Clues through wardrobe can sometimes be misleading .

285. Red Dead Ryan - February 8, 2013

#281.

Sybil? As in a combination of Sybok and Cybill Shepherd?

286. Jim Nightshade - February 8, 2013

Hey Anthony and Bob Orci and all…..I did it…..kinda….in next weeks tv guide with walking dead on cover….page two after table c contents….inbox….under column fringe benefits…..I and my letter about fringe is mentioned…I’m the 2nd letter. Quoted….and commented ‘re series ending finale of fringe….in my letter I also mentioned stid and jj and Roberto Orci and trekmovie.com and my pseudonym here Jim nightshade but they only quoted two sentences of my brilliant letter…and used my real name but at least I was one of only two letters printed…neat huh….hope Bob orci sees this…..

287. MJ - February 8, 2013

@283. Yea, Dexter blew his top. I had never seen that out of him before — usual he is very controlled and presents reasoned responses, and generally behaves himself. I guess Red Dead Ryan’s and my comments hit pretty close to the mark.

Part of being able to post here is to have some degree of self-control to not overreact when you are proven wrong on something. When I have been proven wrong, I just flat out admit it and move on. Others though go into a sort of siege mentality and start name calling, etc. — taking things personally and getting unnecessarily combative.

288. MJ - February 8, 2013

@285

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_(1976_film)

289. Dismayed - February 8, 2013

The canon debate is silly. Why do people insist that Roddenberry is the “holder of the cannon?” For most of Star Trek’s history he was not in control of the franchise. He more or less bowed out during TOS season 3, was at times and wasn’t at times involved in TAS, was simply a consultant for the majority of the movies who had nothing but harsh, critical words for whoever was in charge of the franchise at the time (see the script review notes he sent to Harve Bennett… Wild stuff), and was really only firmly in charge of TNG during its first season.

The reason why canon changes and contradicts is because what is and is not cannon changes with whoever is currently in charge of the franchise. At the moment that’s the Star Trek Supreme Court. Deal with it, I think they’re doing a great job so far.

290. Red Shirt Diaries - February 8, 2013

@289 Tthese remarks show that you are either too young to remember Trek history from first hand experiencing it, or you are a poor student of Star Trek history. With a couple exceptions, such as Harve Bennett Trek movies, Gene controlled the franchise from its inception through about 1990. This is not open to debate.

291. Ahmed - February 8, 2013

Hey, maybe Cumberbatch is a Section 31 agent who got access to genetic enhancement methods left over by Khan!!!

Just my 2cents in these endless speculations.

oh well, at least, John “Yippee-ki-yay, motherf***er”McClane is back next week :)

292. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#290: Actually, that’s very open to debate–you’re incorrect.

293. BatlethInTheGroin - February 8, 2013

#255: Incorrect.

294. dmduncan - February 8, 2013

273. gingerly – February 8, 2013

Nice catch. But Khan had the same collar, no? And what about the other BB survivors? Maybe it was a uniform style.

I don’t think John is Joaquim. He may have been Joaquim when they were trying to cast Del Toro (and then considered Edgar Ramirez and Jordi Molla), but I think they changed him to John after they got Cumberbatch. Same crew, different member.

But the spinal ridges the new photo shows Harrison to have complicates things.

Doesn’t necessarily mean he’s Klingon, or a Klingon-human hybrid, since as far as we know the side effect of the genetic experiments that produced the Eugenics Wars supermen may have altered their spines as well…but Klingon is the first thing that comes to mind, AND Klingons ARE in the movie, so…

295. Jim Nightshade - February 8, 2013

Dmduncan you may have nailed it…..Klingon DNA affected by stolen augment DNA …..maybe they with time were able to make Klingon augments….so it Is related to Khan but not Khan as many of us said…Khan with a twist…brilliant…..if so why is he out for revenge…..

296. Jim Nightshade - February 8, 2013

Maybe Cumby is a human klingon hybrid who used to be a member of starfleet….they had to use a human to make the augment dna work with a klingon somehow??? And maybe hes poed about that and blames starfleet and earth somehow…

I apologize if others have already mentioned these….didnt read all posts yet…working on it hahah

297. K-7 - February 9, 2013

Gotta agree with the folks who noticed Michael Hall going ballistic on the Julian Assange thing. Never seen Hall react like that before. Perhaps we should cut the guy some slack as we all have a bad day now and then and doe stupid things that we regret later.

Michael Hall, everything OK with you? Don’t sweat the chatter here. I got your back.

298. Jack - February 9, 2013

282.”I’ll disagree with you there as no one gets to decide for anyone else what is to be considered ‘real’ Star Trek, which is why the whole ‘canon’ argument is the kind of nerd fetish spoofed for best effect on shows like ‘The Big Bang Theory’”

In my opinion, canon has little to do with the fans — it’s there so writers can manage continuity and decide when and how to change what they need to. So Captain Kirk isn’t an only child one week and then an uncle three weeks later. Plenty of shows (most), including Trek, messed this up, sometimes on purpose, sometimes because of different writers.

But for storytelling purposes — ‘is it canon?’ is a good question. Are the writers’ hands tied when it comes to a major change to something established previously? Sure, they’re never really tied — writers can always retcon stuff — but if there’s no continuity at all, it’s kind of hard to stay invested in an ongoing show…

I guess it is about the audience/fans after all — but it’s not always us quibbling about esoteric minutia… Canon can also be about good storytelling. If the first captain of the enterprise is suddenly Susan Sarandon when a previous episode has established it was Robert April, and there’s no (even half-hearted) explanation, than it’s either a mistake or a case of ‘we can change stuff if we need to, it’s our show.’ sometimes it might not detract from the story (Khan recognized Chekov but he wasn’t there that season: so what?) — but other times you might alienate your audience…

So, the hundreds of novels contradict each other and the shows — it makes sense that they’re not part of canon (sure TV/movie writers can decide to borrow ideas frim them if needed but they’re not obliged to make theirstories fit into allthose other stories).

They might be fine Star Trek, but they just don’t fit into the other storylines. And that’s part ofwhy Trek became so convoluted and it became tougher to tell good stories — it wasn’t because of fans, it was because they were telling stories in different time periods (the TOS movies suddenly had to be careful not to contradict TNG stuff) and over hundreds of episodes of different
series.

299. Dismayed - February 9, 2013

@290 unless you’re old enough to have seen everything first run and to have heard Roddenberry speak at cons I don’t think you’re older than me. You know I’m a big fan, have been from the beginning and am well aware of Trek’s history. What I think you and many others don’t understand is how corporate America works. Make no mistake about it, the rights to Star Trek and everything it encompasses were never Gene’s. he creatively managed to give himself some rights here and there, was almost always a consultant but like most consultants in the real world they just consult… No one is bound by anything they say… He had a lot of control over Phase 2, TMP, and TNG with decreasing power as the years went on. I’m not saying he wasn’t the guy that the writers went to for ideas or blessings, or that they didn’t try to be consistent with his wishes, but the bottom line is the studio owned Trek, whoever they put in charge at the time was at the helm, and that person helming the franchise sometimes listened to Gene and sometimes blew him off and ignored his inputs. That’s so well documented, his fights with the studio and whoever had creative control of Trek at the time so well documented, that there’s really no question to it. When folks like Gene L. Coon contributed so much to the universe sometimes in Gene’s complete absence is it really fair to think of Roddenberry in the way that we do? I don’t know, guess it depends on what you think of Steve Jobs and his relationship with Apple products was and their development I suppose. But in that case at lease Jobs really did have corporate control. I think most Trek fans tend to romanticize Gene’s role in Star Trek and don’t see the reality for what it was. That’s all I’m saying.

300. Dismayed - February 9, 2013

Also just want to point out since the guy didn’t have rights over almost everything he created this is why he was always coming up with creative ways to give himself rights over something… Be it inventing lyrics to the Star Trek theme or coming up with the corny IDIC pendant and then peddling it in his wife’s Lincoln Enterprises mail order catalog. A guy who has intellectual rights to Trek doesn’t have to do that. A guy who has creative control of Star Trek isn’t given the title of Consultant. I realize what the studio folks said publicly, but come on realize the difference between PR and office politics vs. the reality of how it really was.

301. Craiger - February 9, 2013

#296 – What if Cumberbatch is a Klingon/Human Hybrid and a Starfleet spy sent to influtrate the Klingon Empire. He is found out and escapes the Klingon Homeword when Kirk and Uhura are their. He blames Starfleet for abandoning him.

302. Craiger - February 9, 2013

Sorry I meant infiltrate.

303. Phil - February 9, 2013

@297. I have. The guy goes ape s**t on anyone who is negative about James Cawley’s fan films.

304. Jim Nightshade - February 9, 2013

Great comments Craiger…..sounds like its possible…its very creative idea too…wow….

305. Me - February 9, 2013

#45

This can’t be. April would have been in charge of construction. We saw the Enterprise being built in Star Trek XI.

306. Rose (as in Keachick) - February 9, 2013

Just a nitpick (my grammar nazi in me) -

“when Kirk and Uhura are their…”
“their” here is incorrect. Kirk and Uhura are THERE.
However, Kirk and Uhura take care of THEIR communicators…
—————————————————————————————————-
Canon is what Paramount – the franchise owner – decide it is, ie what goes on film. TAS is also on film. No declaration has been forthcoming as yet to how deleted scenes (also on film) are defined. Paramount needs to clarify this!

It is not up to us to decide what is canon. Bob Orci, no doubt after receiving permission from the franchise owner, has noted that what appears in the ongoing and countdown comics is canon, but only if what is shown in subsequent film does not override or contradict it. Film trumps all.

@ Bob Orci – Please confirm or otherwise.

307. Killamarshtrek - February 9, 2013

Anthony

If you and your ‘sources’ are so sure Cumberbatch is Kahn, please explain to me why he isn’t Indian?

308. Me - February 9, 2013

I can certainly confirm you’re going to be eating crow come opening night….
This morning, actors Benedict Cumberbatch and Alice Eve joined producer Bryan Burk at the BFI IMAX to show the first nine minutes of the upcoming movie – due to hit cinemas in summer 2013 – and answer a few questions. They were understandably tightlipped when it came to details, but we did learn that Cumberbatch’s character is in no way affiliated with legendary space psycho Khan, that Eve is indeed playing Kirk’s lover-to-be Carol Marcus, and that the entire movie will be converted into 3D, which is sure to enrage some purists.

309. captain_neill - February 9, 2013

As good an actor that Cumberbatch is, if he is Khan then he will not be as good as Montalban. Same as Pine who is good as Kirk but he is not as good as William Shatner, the man who defined the character.

310. JUSTOMTAV - February 9, 2013

It is Khan im sorry Talent beats skin color.
So BC’s complection is a non point.

Banicio Del Toro was originally cast as the character and he looks the part of Khan.

So many nods to space seed and Wrath of Khan in the promotional pieces for this film.

the Nod to spocks death in TWOK,
Carol Marcus.

Writers confirmed the villain is part of treks prime timeline.

“Im better” at what –”Everything”

The damn shot of the warehouse filled with cryo-pods.

311. NYCtrekcadet - February 9, 2013

The villian is Soran, from STG

312. Curious Cadet - February 9, 2013

@223 K-7,

It actually doesn’t matter whether April is considered canon or not, “original” or otherwise (and yes I noticed this distinction the first time I read the article).

Again — Weller plays a NEW character that Orci CREATED.

Therefore, it is impossible that Weller plays April since Orci most certainly did NOT CREATE the character of April.

Suggesting otherwise is like Al Gore claiming he invented the internet.

313. gingerly - February 9, 2013

@294.

“Maybe it was a uniform style.”

*nods* YES. It was a uniform style, which is my point.

Why would Benecio, a swarthy Spainish actor have originally played a blue-eyed blond??

That doesn’t make sense at all. I think he was Khan, and when the brought in Cumberbatch they changed his character to Joachim.

But Cumberbatch playing Joachim, whom he resembles quite a lot BTW makes perfect sense.

I can’t wait until this movie comes out so you all can eat humble pie, with the wild-no-sense-making theories.

314. gingerly - February 9, 2013

@228

I like your second theory better.

…But I don’t think he’s Starfleet. Call it a hunch, but I think he’s simply an augment with a rogue terrorist organization.

I think he’s gathered people to his cause by touting the morally gray things Starfleet has done, and likely tells his group that they are ultimately trying to rule space and control people.

I think Cumby’s character offers himself (as an augment) as a cure to the guy with the sick daughter in the trailer and proof that Starfleet,as part of Terra’s big government has been manipulating people and also with-holding science that can save people.

That’s why you see the shot of the father of the girl dropping his signet ring in the glass crying in the trailer, because he sees the ideals of Starfleet as a sham when they with-hold advances that can save his daughter.

315. K-7 - February 9, 2013

@312, Yes, Curious Cadet, but the question was worded such that Orci had to either answer one of two discrete responses in quick blasts from question to question…there was not time for him to elaborate or to get clarification on the question. Orci simply provided the answer that he felt was most correct between the only choices that Anthony allowed him in this rapid fire questioning: either NEW or “original” CANON.

So Orci said NEW since Captain April wasn’t in “original” CANON. I agree that this is an imperfect answer, but it is certainly a better answer that saying “original” CANON, which would have been a defacto lie.

Its’s as simple as that. No need to make this more complex that this. It is what it is!

316. Admiral Nogura - February 10, 2013

Watch the scene in the trailer with the pods/coffins again. Look who’s walking out of the room in the back. It’s someone with the same ponytail and uniform design as Khan in “Space Seed”.

However, I don’t think the actor is BC.

317. Curious Cadet - February 10, 2013

@315 K-7,

I disagree. I’m not the one making it more complex than it is. Since “original” canon is not defined, it makes more sense to lump April into original canon (I.e. Kirk, Spock, McCoy, et al during the original 5 year mission — which TAS is generally considered the last two), than to flat out lie.

Orci did not create April. April is not a new character. Parse this any way you like, but it is a flat out lie to for Orci to say he created Capt. April as a new character.

Given the choice of one of two answers, It is much more reasonable to forgive Orci that April is canon to TOS (assuming one is of the: TAS is not part of “original” canon, or canon at all camp), than saying he CREATED the character of Capt. April.

That said, if you are willing to accept this kind of bold deception from Orci, then I would suggest it is possible that Orci could have also created a brand new character to Trek canon, who is coincidentally named April, who just so happened to be the captain of a ship also called Enterprise. A character which has absolutely nothng to do with the character contemplated by Rodenberry or depicted in TAS. STID’s “Delta Vega” if you will.

But I suspect that will upset fans as well, and is counter to the spirit of preserving the franchise Orci continues to espouse to the fans. But if not that, and what you instead propose, then Orci is just flat out lying. And Orci says he does not lie.

318. DeShonn Steinblatt - February 10, 2013

Preserving the franchise has nothing to do with preserving your canon.

319. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

313: ” Why would Benecio, a swarthy Spainish actor have originally played a blue-eyed blond??”

Joachim/Joaquin are variants of the same name. In both SS and TWOK, Khan’s right hand man has that name. Yes, I know a lot of people try to make those two characters different characters, but I think the reality is that they were intended to be the same. I agree, in other words, with the Wiki article on their identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Tobin#Mark_Tobin). While he is a good storyteller, Nick Meyer’s attention to detail is sloppy. But regardless of that, my contention is that Del Toro was being cast to play the ORIGINAL from SS, who ISN’T blonde haired. He’s very “Latino” looking. And played by Mark Tobin, who looks nothing like Judson Scott.

“That doesn’t make sense at all. I think he was Khan, and when the brought in Cumberbatch they changed his character to Joachim.”

Therefore, it DOES make sense. They went back to the look of the ORIGINAL character when they were looking at Del Toro, Ramirez, and Molla.

That’s when I contend that the character’s name in the script was Joachim. Then, when they got Cumberbatch, they changed his name from (J)oachim to (J)ohn.

Cumberbatch isn’t playing Joaquim. Del Toro was. Cumberbatch is playing a different character from the Botany Bay whose name is John Harrison.

That’s my contention, although I admit it is possible they are masking his identity with that name. He may still be revealed as Joaquim and Harrison as his AKA. But he was never Khan. And I think Khan MAY be in the movie, probably during some flashback scene that explains Harrison’s backstory, or possibly at the end, y’know, a face seen through the glass of a sleeper pod in government storage — STID’s nod to Raiders of the Lost Ark. Something like that.

320. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

316. Admiral Nogura – February 10, 2013

Watch the scene in the trailer with the pods/coffins again. Look who’s walking out of the room in the back. It’s someone with the same ponytail and uniform design as Khan in “Space Seed”.

***

Except that “ponytail” is not necessarily the only interpretation of that. Cybernetic implant? The back of the head where a ponytail should be seems to be a favorite place to locate those things in SF movies. I think the bulky figure next to BC is most likely Joseph Gatt. I’ve compared the body types, and Gatt is a very broad individual that matches the figure we see there. I see no one else in the casting list who is a closer fit.

The figure on the left is also taller than the one on the right, and IMDB lists their heights as 6’1″ and 6′ respectively, so there’s a possible height match as well.

Isn’t GATT2000 supposed to be an Enterprise bridge crew member?

Well, since he’s linked to John Harrison in that photo, there’s an implication of collusion between them. Conspiracy. The Enterprise has at least one saboteur among its crew.

321. Disinvited - February 10, 2013

#299. Dismayed

Then you must be younger than me. I remember when Jobs was booted out by Mr. Pepsi.

322. MJ - February 10, 2013

@319 DM, just got through reviewing their photos, and I don’t see your reasoning that Del Toro or Molla fit the looks of Joachim/Joaquin (Judson Scott in TWOK). Joachim/Scott looks like a longer-faced version of Richard Dean Anderson if anything. Not seeing the hispanic looks you seem to be suggesting for him?

That Tobin guy is hardly seen in Space Seed, so that would be quite a stretch for them to model the new Joachim after him instead of the near-iconic Scott. However, even in this case, Tobin cetainly doesn’t look hispanic to me, though I will admit he looks a bit more credible towards looking at least something like Del Toro/Molla…but’s its a stretch to be sure.

323. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

MJ, considering Scott “near-iconic” is impossible for me. I see him as a very bad attempt by Nick Meyer to continue the right-hand-man role of Mark Tobin in SS, whom he looks nothing like.

You say Mark Tobin doesn’t look Latino? I think that’s wrong. I think the guy in this photo (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Joaquin) can play a number of roles — Spanish, Italian, Greek, Turk, Middle Eastern Jew. Judson Scott was a very poor replacement for this guy if that was Nick Meyer’s intention, and judging by the visual sloppiness of Meyer’s work (Time After Time had some of the laziest VFX you will find, as one example), I do believe that it was; since Meyer provides NO explanation for the character in TWOK to suggest we need to know anything new about him, I think that is simply because the explanation for his role was already provided. In Space Seed, which he hired Judson Scott to reprise.

Regarding the STID casting shenanigans, no one is suggesting that they were looking for an exact fit to mark Tobin’s Joaquin, just as no one suggests they were looking for a visual copy of James Doohan when they cast Simon Pegg as Scotty.

What they were looking for, I contend, was someone who fits the CHARACTER first introduced in SS, which Del Toro does — NOT the Judson Scott version perpetrated on us by Nick Meyer.

The choice of the character’s name is significant. Joaquin is not generally used as an anglo name, and these supermen were supposed to be leaders of global regions. One of the characters Khan greets as they stretch directly out of their sleep chambers has a German sounding name (I think it’s Otto), so from the very beginning I have understood them as a group of leaders with ethnic identities that made them appropriate to govern different regions of the globe.

Joaquin has always been either Latino or close to it, in my eyes. That is what I thought from the very first viewing of that episode, and I’ve never found a reason to change my opinion.

And yes, I know fans try to explain the difference between SS and TWOK…he has a slightly differently spelled version of the same name…he’s Khan’s son, yada, yada, yada…

But I don’t buy any of that.

When I look at Meyer’s work, I think here is a guy who loves a great story but who is not comfortable either with Star Trek canon or with the art of cinema, and that to me is why we have Joachim and Joaquin. He doesn’t care about details the way fans do. There’s nothing more profound to it than that regardless of what fans try to read into the differences.

324. BatlethInTheGroin - February 10, 2013

#306: “It’s not up to us to decide what is canon.”

On the contrary, it’s COMPLETELY up to us. Everyone who watches or reads Star Trek is free to accept and discard whatever he or she wishes. Paramount/CBS have no police force to stop that from occurring. The concept of “canon” versus “non-canon” is largely a fan construct anyway, and only really matters to the socially inept who take their hobby too seriously. It’s all fiction. None of it matters. Enjoy it or don’t enjoy it–and accept it or discard it. And that’s all there is to it.

325. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

Bottom line is, if you look at that Mark Tobin picture and you can tell that he’s NOT Italian, or Spanish, or Portuguese, etc, then you can do something I can’t.

326. boborci - February 10, 2013

What have we learned so far?

327. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

Something Klingony is up with John Harrison.

328. Ahmed - February 10, 2013

@ 326. boborci – February 10, 2013
“What have we learned so far?”

Nothing, Bob. You guys are not giving us any new information. We are just going in circle, Khan or not Khan, that is the question !!

btw, any idea when the trailer for Ender’s Game coming out ?

329. Rose (as in Keachick) - February 10, 2013

Some of the posters here (excluding Bob Orci and myself) are CHOOSING to go round and round in circles about is he Khan or not Khan? You do have the option to STOP.

#326 – What we know so far is:
* The big bad villain in STID is called John Harrison. John Harrison is highly intelligent with seemingly super physical strength, a member of Starfleet who has gone rogue, and speaks with a British English accent. He is able to offer help to the father of a very sick daughter. Other than that, we know nothing of his family, education, values and attitudes other than that he menacingly warns people that they are not safe.

* Alice Eve plays a young Carol Marcus, who seems to be some sort of expert in weapons technology. She also seems to be charmed and charm a young James Kirk, although the couple do not appear to have much time to do anything about their respective charming.

(NB: At this point, Carol Marcus has nothing to do with any Khan. Before she even hears about Khan, she needs to be well and truly f*cked and impregnated by one James Kirk, bear a son and move 20 years into the future, have a grown up son who doesn’t know his father is alive, because his mother lied to him and then see that son want to kill a man he does not know is his father. What’s more, Carol has no idea who the hell this Khan is…)

* Klingons wear ridge shaped helmets. Klingons were never seen wearing helmets in the prime universe.

* The Enterprise is able to be be under (sea) water for a limited period of time.
Another (Starfleet?) vessel is able to surface from below the waters of San Fransisco Bay and crash into what seems to be Starfleet Academy.

* A good part of London seems to in ruins. St Paul’s Cathedral seems to weather it all remarkably well. London seems to have had something of big makeover between now (2013) and 23rd century, with very tall, modern/futuristic looking buildings, many of which are partially destroyed, except, of course, for the Christopher Wren cathedral built between 1675 and 1711. An oldie but goodie, to be sure…:)

* Kirk and McCoy run through a red forest chased by pale looking aliens while Spock gets up close and personal with a raging volcano. Something about the Prime Directive gets mentioned and “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one”. Kirk and McCoy look kinda sexy in their tight fitting wetsuits…:)!

All in all, it’s shaping up to be rather good – perhaps a little preposterous in places… or not, but hey, I like preposterous.

What we don’t know is – who Peter Weller plays, other than a guy with his own ship!

How am I doing so far, Bob Orci?

330. MJ - February 10, 2013

@325. Here is the photo of Tobin.

http://www.aveleyman.com/ActorCredit.aspx?ActorID=26604

Yea, if you are all of a going to say, “Italian”, well maybe I could buy that…but what in the heck does Italian have to do with any of this? Maybe Anthony should be playing Khan then… ;-)

Not seeing any Hispanic looks here or minute resemblance to Del Tor and/or Molla. And remember, the Joachim in TWOK, who got a lot more screen time than the one in Space Seed, is lilly white…no, he’s not Italian either. ;-)

Still, it’s very possible that Joachim is Harrison, but it so, this comparison of looks isn’t the evidence that supports it.

331. MJ - February 10, 2013

@329 “Before she even hears about Khan, she needs to be well and truly f*cked and impregnated by one James Kirk.”

Sheesh, yea, OK, can you be any more direct about it please. :-))

332. MJ - February 10, 2013

Some really weird stuff I just ran across on TWOK:

http://badassdigest.com/2012/06/12/the-baby-that-was-cut-out-of-star-trek-ii-the-wrath-of-khan/

333. Jim Nightshade - February 10, 2013

bob orci did you see my post 286 ? if u get tv guide im in next weeks commenting on fringe..

334. MJ - February 10, 2013

Curious Cadet,

I agree with K-7. Given Orci was posted those questions where he had to pick either new or original canon, if April is the character, then I’d lean with the imperfect choice of Orci being more truthful by saying new, since “original canon” obviously mean Gene-Roddenberry-based canon (i.e. the traditional canon definition).

Neither response is really true, but NEW is more true than ORIGINAL CANON since April only showed up in a cartoon episode that even most of Trek fans barely recall in detail.

Seriously, when was the last time we all watched the April TAS episodes (not including recently when we found out he might be in the movie)? Be honest, folks? Me — about 4 years ago I think.

335. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

330. MJ – February 10, 2013

Not just Italian. I can’t tell what that guy is by looking at him and I’m Italian. I can’t tell what Andy Garcia is (Vincent Corleone) by looking at him either. It’s his accent that says more about him than his looks do. And what about Martinez from NYPD Blue — Spanish last name, but what about the actor? Italian or Espanol?:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=nick+turtutto&qpvt=nick+turtutto&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=F2EC9F1480E28A3F800B7453F8FA6D7683B3D735&selectedIndex=22

336. MJ - February 10, 2013

@335. Even if I granted you that (which is still a stretch in my opinion), that still doesn’t explain Judson Scott — he got a lot more face time in Star Trek than Tobin; and please don’t try to tell me that Scott looks Italian?

337. dmduncan - February 10, 2013

Yeah but Judson Scott was Meyer’s choice to replace Tobin. Why would the SC be more obliged to follow his appearance than Tobin’s? If the idea is that you have all these supermen governing various regions of the world, resembling the people that they govern, and that Joaquim perhaps was fit for South American leadership, then you pick an actor who fits that role. Mark Tobin/Del Toro fit it better than Judson Scott/BC do.

See what I mean?

338. MJ - February 10, 2013

I get where you are going, but the reason the SC might be more obliged to follow Scott’s appearance is because he got more screen time on a big stage (movie) than Tobin. I mean, I had to go back and watch Space Seed again recently to re-familiarize myself with Tobin, whereas Scott’s performance is pretty much ingrained on my brain…I think most would agree?

339. Curious Cadet - February 11, 2013

@334 MJ,
“Neither response is really true, but NEW is more true than ORIGINAL CANON since April only showed up in a cartoon episode that even most of Trek fans barely recall in detail.”

This is entirely a subjective opinion based on how you interpret Orci’s understanding of Anthony’s use of the word “original”, and whether an individual accepts TAS as canon.

Regardless, Orci is not merely choosing the word “New” in a vacuum. “New” is shorthand for “New character he CREATED”, just like Orci answers “Canon” instead of “the original Star Trek canon”.

Orci did not CREATE the character of Capt. April. Therefore, in this context, no matter how you interpret “original Star Trek canon”, answering “New” is the worst choice of the two if Weller is actually playing April, since April is and has been considered canon, if not “original” it is still based on the original cast and characters, and closer to truth than claiming he CREATED a character he did not.

Here is the EXACT transcription as reported by Trekmovie:

TrekMovie.com: I will name a guest actor in the sequel and you will say if they are playing a new character you created or one from the original Star Trek canon.

TrekMovie.com: Peter Weller

Roberto Orci: New.

If Weller is playing April, then Orci flat out lied, as there is no way he can claim credit for creating April.

Now, if Orci has merely created a character NAMED April, who also happens to have been the captain of a ship called Enterprise, but otherwise has nothing to do with the character introduced in TAS episode the Counterclock Incident, then the character is NOT April anymore, but rather a brand new character — in which case those people claiming Weller is playing April are still wrong, since they mean the character introduced TAS, as contemplated by Rodenberry since the early 60s.

Either way, there is no way Weller is playing April unless Orci lied.

340. Rose (as in Keachick) - February 11, 2013

#331 – Hey, give me a break here. I’m doing my best…:)

341. n1701ncc - February 11, 2013

Everyone all together now say Gary Mitchell.

Maybe Khan will pop up in Star Wars eposide 7 The Empire plants a Seed….

May Khan be with you

Lastly JJ and Khan can turn all the little Ewoks into Super strong Ewoks and bring Yoda back from the dead

342. MJ - February 11, 2013

@339. The fact that several of us disagree here on which answer from Orci would have more truthful proves in-and-of-itself that Orci was put in a bad position where he might have determined either answer as more valid than the other answer.

And therefore, this still proves my overall original point here.

343. K-7 - February 11, 2013

“The fact that several of us disagree here on which answer from Orci would have more truthful proves in-and-of-itself that Orci was put in a bad position where he might have determined either answer as more valid than the other answer.”

Well said, MJ. Yea, we can’t all agree here on which answer is more truthful, so Bob just did the best he could — he answered the one question he thought was more truthful than the other question. Some like Curious Cadet are free to conclude he lied, but others will conclude that the answer is OK given the Roddenberry definition of canon.

We can’t all even agree on this, so how can we expect Bob to pick “the right answer” here? The question ultimately was a bad one (sorry Anthony), and that is not Bob’s fault, nor is it our fault. Bob did the best he could given a bad situation.

Case closed.

344. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

Robert April is mentioned as the first captain of the original Enterprise in the Star Trek Encycolopedia, a book that is absolute canon-based. TAS isn’t included.

Gene Roddenberry suggested that Robert April be included into canon, even though he thought otherwise of TAS.

So Robert April is canon, unless Roddenberry flip-flopped on the issue, in which case, we really haven’t resolved anything.

345. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

Encycolopedia=Encyclopedia

Motherf*ckin’ typos!

346. MJ - February 11, 2013

@344. Hmm, the Star Trek Encyclopedia came out in the late 90′s. If you could point out to me that this fact was in the 70′s Concordance or Making of Star Trek or The World of Star Trek — the main reference books of the 1970′s during the Original Canon era, you’d sell me on this.

The fact that the Okudas put April as canon is their late 90′s book isn’t that compelling for me. Certainly, I would buy that their book has now established April as canon in today’s Star Trek; but remember, the question Anthony asked Orci specifically involved the term “Original Canon.”

So that’s why I would need to see something from the 1970′s to buy into this.

347. MJ - February 11, 2013

…and let’s also remember, if their was some obscure quote from Roddenberry about wanting April to be in canon, I doubt Robert Orci would have known about it. I have never run across that Roddenberry quote, and I have ton’s of printed stuff on Roddenberry from the 70′s and 80′s, and actually met the guy and spent a couple days with him and a group of folks in 77. So if he did really say that to the Okudas before he died, a lot us are not aware of it, including I suspect, Bob Orci.

348. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

I suspect that Gene Roddenberry did say something to Mike and/or Denise Okuda, or others involved with keeping track of what’s canon and what’s not canon.

Two quotes from the encyclopedia:

#1.

“We have stayed fairly strictly with material only from finished, aired versions of episodes and released versions of films. We have not used any material from the Star Trek novels or other publications. This isn’t because we don’t like those works (we’re quite fond of many of them, and we hope this information will be useful to our writer friends), but as with the Chronology, we wanted to create a reference to the source material itself—that is, the episodes and the movies. This way, anyone building on this Encyclopedia can be reasonably sure that his or her work is directly based on actual Star Trek source material. In a related vein, this work adheres to Paramount studio policy that regards the animated Star Trek series as not being part of the “official” Star Trek univers, even though we count ourselves among the show’s fans. Of course, the final decision as to the “authenticity” of the animated episodes, as with all elements of the show, must clearly be the choice of each individual reader.”

On one hand, the Encyclopedia, which is predominantly based on canonical Trek, includes Robert T. April as being the first commander of the original Enterprise NCC-1701, with the suggestion that despite TAS not being canon, that the character of April be included nontheless at the suggestion of Gene Roddenberry.

On another hand, TAS was (at the time of the books publication, at least) to be totally non-canon. However, parts of the show, specifically concerning canon surrounding Spock and Vulcan culture in general, have made it into canon, most notably the Vulcan arc during the fourth season of “Star Trek: Enterprise”.

On the third hand, the book does suggest that in the end, it is up to the reader to consider what constitutes “canon”.

In other words, while I have no hard proof that April is indeed canon, I have found no evidence to claim otherwise.

#2.

“April, is of course, totally conjectural, but is being included at Gene Roddenberry’s suggestion”.

I don’t discount MJ’s claims of Roddenberry’s de-canonizing of TAS.

It’s possible that later on, Roddenberry listened to the demands of fans and had the show made “officially” part of canon.

I think we are kind of stuck in some sort of anomaly when it comes to whether or not April is canon.

349. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

If April is in the sequel, he becomes canon, both in the prime timeline and the alternate one as well. Question, is, would he be considered the first captain of the original Enterprise in the prime timeline, or would he only be confirmed to exist, with his captaincy being circumstantial at best?

350. Curious Cadet - February 11, 2013

@346 MJ,

So just what exactly do you consider to be part of “the Original Canon era”?

351. MJ - February 11, 2013

@348. Very interesting — especially the comment that Gene wanted April included. I don’t doubt this then, but I wish they had footnoted that? Let me know if you see a footnote in the book for that?

So I can buy that April is indeed canon now. OK! Thanks!

That being said, the term, “original canon” likely would not include this.

You know, why would Anthony use that weird term, “original canon” instead of just “canon”. Perhaps Anthony knows more than he’s letting on about STID and wanted to give Orci an out by not having to expose that Weller is playing April?

352. MJ - February 11, 2013

@350. Well, that is the million dollar questions here, isn’t it?

353. MJ - February 11, 2013

A simple explanation could be that “Original” Canon is only associated with The “Original” Series episodes from the three TOS seasons. This is pretty restrictive, but the use of the term “original” fits here.

Anybody have a better idea???

354. MJ - February 11, 2013

Just found these definitions at Star Trek: The New Voyages:

Star Trek: Original Canon, for the actual TV episodes and movies as they originally aired.

Star Trek: Canon Remastered, for any alterations done officially to the original works.

Star Trek: TAS, for the actual animated series. Semi-canon to most people.

Star Trek: Officially Licensed Products, if you branch into novels, comics or games

355. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

The #2 quote is a footnote included under the April, Captain Robert T. description in the encyclopedia. There is even a photo of the character.

There is also this:

“2245: The first Starship Enterprise, NCC-1701, is launched. Captain Robert April commands the ship’s first five-year mission of exploration.”

So Captain April may just as well be canon. I mean, there isn’t anything on-screen to contradict this.

356. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

The photo is a picture of a live human being in a yellow command shirt, not a still from TAS. So he does have a bit of history, and an actual photo of him on the TOS Enterprise bridge.

357. MJ - February 11, 2013

Interesting. The early drafts of the Star Trek concept by Roddenberry for TOS had Captain Robert April in them. That is where Roddenberry first came up with him.

Is that photo some Photoshop thing that the Okuda’s came up with?

358. MJ - February 11, 2013

RDR:

“The Star Trek Encyclopedia uses a photo of Gene Roddenberry in an early-style uniform to illustrate its entry on April, as does the Star Trek Chronology for its entry on 2245.”

359. MJ - February 11, 2013

OK guys, I am kind of coming around to the point where I think Orci will be caught in a lie if Weller is playing April, as I am 90% convinced that he is.

360. Red Dead Ryan - February 11, 2013

I thought it was Roddenberry.

Since Roddenberry “played” April, and he was a big fan of his own creation, I think it pretty much cements the character in Trek canon.

Kind of funny, actually, it seems a bit egotistical of him to pick out a name and then use his own image to make him an actual character.

But then again, he created the show. Can’t say I blame him. I’d do exactly the same thing if I were in his shoes. :-)

The Encyclopedia and Chronology are both OFFICIAL publications, so that makes the April character official. They didn’t include any other TAS bits, so that has to mean something for the character of Robert April.

#359.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Bob lied. J.J Abrams lied about his plans to direct the next “Star Wars” movies, and Bob has admitted to lying about something on this site to do with the movie, though he retracted that supposed lie.

Well, I think we settled this one!

MYSTERY SOLVED!!!

CASE CLOSED!!!

361. MJ - February 12, 2013

@360. OK, you’ve convinced me. Case closed, and Orci probably lied given I’m pretty dame sure about Weller playing April. Yea, that must be his projected lie. LOL

PS: Curious Cadet, you were right as well! Cool!

362. Curious Cadet - February 12, 2013

@361 MJ,

Not that I care about being right in this, but the sticking point for me is claiming he created a character he did not, since canon is a much more fudgeable area than obvious plagiarism.

But I’m not yet convinced Weller is playing April. Though it is certainly a possibility.

Considering the whole “Delta Vega” issue from the last film, I would not put it past Orci to just recycle the name “April” which was arguably never part of canon, and therefore up for grabs.

Orci has some very specific thoughts on what is and is not canon. Paraphrasing, but I believe it boils down to: everything is canon, until contradicted by an official film. Perfect example, he considers his IDW comics canon, yet most notably the first Countdown series is contradicted by the film.

Given this, whether Orci considers April canon or not, it does not preclude him from tossing out canon completely and creating a brand new character named “April” having little to do with the character as first depicted in TAS aside from coincidentally having been captain of a ship called Enterprise. And If he doesn’t consider April canon, then in his mind, he’s just taken a name from the Star Trek grab-bag, and assigned it to a completely different character he newly created, just like “Delta Vega” in ST09.

This is actually not a very comforting thought either. About the only outcome that will save face for Orci here in my mind is that Weller is not playing a character named April at all.

363. Red Dead Ryan - February 12, 2013

Robert April is in the new “Countdown” comics. So I suspect he’ll be in the sequel.

364. MJ - February 12, 2013

Yea, the Countdown thing really solidified for me why Weller is playing April.

365. Curious Cadet - February 12, 2013

@363 Red Dead Ryan,

The original Countdown prequel to ST09, featured Data, Picard, Geordi, and Worf. None of whom were in the film.

Obviously there’s a good chance a character named April will be in the film, but my money is on April being played by Nolan North, or an as yet unnamed cameo. I don’t really see April being a central character, more like Robau in ST09.

366. Red Dead Ryan - February 12, 2013

#365.

Except Peter Weller is around the same age as April. And let’s not forget “April’s Gatling Gun” from the trailer.

367. MJ - February 12, 2013

@366. The prequel comics with April take place 20 years before STID. So Weller is obviously playing April in my opinion, especially given that he said “I have my own ship” and also confirmed that he was not playing in Alien.

368. MJ - February 13, 2013

“not playing an alien.”

Sheesh, that was a bad typo. :-)

369. Curious Cadet - February 13, 2013

@366 Red Dead Ryan,
First, there is absolutely no tangible proof anywhere of that gun being called “April’s Gatling Gun”. The only reasonable evidence so far calls it “April Big Gun” in a sound file seen in the ProTools video. This alone does not confirm a guy named April will actually be in the film, just that a weapon may have been named after him.

Second, the presence of that gun, named “April” or not, has nothing to do with Weller playing April. So what if Weller is the same age as April is supposed to be in the Prime Timeline? At this point in order to consider Weller is playing April, I have to assume Orci flat-out lied to us, and I’m not willing to do that yet — that is why my money is on Nolan or someone else.

Indeed the character in the comic looks just like Nolan!

@367 MJ,
” The prequel comics with April take place 20 years before STID”

How do you figure since Kirk is commanding the Enterprise when they discover April? At most the prequel comic takes place one year earlier than STID. Not sure how this applies to your theory anyway, since April looks to be 45-60 in the comics, and should look like he’s in his 30s if it took place 20 years earlier, assuming he plays the same April from TAS.

370. MJ - February 13, 2013

@369. I have not read the comic (tried to order it, but they ran out), but someone posted here that the backstory of April in the comics predated STID by 20 years? Is that not the case?

371. Curious Cadet - February 15, 2013

@370 MJ,

Well, at least the first one is not. The whole premise is Kirk and the Enterprise are sent on a mission of first contact and instead discover April. So it starts no more than a year before STID making the TAS April at least 63.

372. JJ - February 20, 2013

1.Gary Mitchell – Hence the blond nurse/doctor, she looks like the one from the tos episode who had Mitchells powers aswell.

2.Captian Garth – Voice says in trailer something about family and returning for revenge.

3.Khan – Same as 2 reason.

Or is into darkness a mix of wrath of khan and search for spock? Hence in one trailer the planet is blowing up with lava etc. If this is the case then villain is Khan or Gary mitchell in a mix formed together?

373. Dr. Soong - February 26, 2013

Wow these guesses are a fun read. I am not sure what to think either. Personally, if it is a twist on “Space Seed”, I think it shows poor creativity for Orci and Kurtzman. Why do an alternate universe and show the same stories with different effect?

Can a case be made for it? Sure. But if the objective is to make an alternate timeline with new blood as it were, I think even an original story based on “Space Seed”, falls short.

I still follow current ST trends on hopes for a new series (all of which rejected by Paramount according to Frakes, Singer and others), as well as written post TNG novels (2005 and on) which is steadily showing TNG era characters events from ST:Nemesis (timeline 2381) to just before Picard leaves the Enterprise E to become Ambassador to Vulcan in 2385 (“…All Good Things”, Star Trek Countdown #4 2009 comic, Star Trek TNG Cold Equations trilogy by David Mack) Though at this point in the novels they are about a year away from that event happening.

Okay I seriously digressed, anyway I guess what Im saying is that although I am all for some ties between the prime Trek timeline and the JJ Verse, I don’t think a remake of Kirk v Khan or Khan subordinates do the original actors any justice. Sorry, Shatner and Ricardo over the top acting cant be dupicated.

374. Dr. Soong - February 26, 2013

Having said all that there are rumors that Paramount wouldn’t discuss a new ST series until after Star Trek Into Darknes comes out. With J.J. going to Lucasfilm/Disney to do EpVII, the door may be opening to bring Star Trek back to television.

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