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Star Trek Into Darkness Easter Eggs – Blu-ray edition September 11, 2013

by Matt Wright , Filed under: DVD/Blu-ray,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

Star Trek Into Darkness is now on home video, so we’re updating or original Easter eggs article with the appropriate screenshots. With repeat viewings, and the ability to pause your copy, there are opportunities for you to spot some fun ‘Easter egg’ tidbits put into the movie. See below for our selection of Into Darkness Easter eggs.

 

STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS EASTER EGGS – Blu-ray Edition

Of course Star Trek Into Darkness includes some big homages and reverences to Star Trek history including Khan, Section 31 and beyond which are key parts of the film. But there are also some more subtle ‘Easter egg’ references to Star Trek history and beyond included in the film. Some of which you may have already spotted and maybe some you didn’t.

 

Kirk’s Menage a Caitian

Kirk is seen in bed with two Caitains (according to STID scribe Roberto Orci) – a feline species first introduced in Star Trek: The Animated Series with the character M’Ress.

catgirls

tff_cat_lady

 

Daystrom

Pike and Kirk are called to a meeting with admiralty in the Daystrom Conference Room at Starfleet HQ. A reference to Dr. Richard Daystrom the inventor of the duotronic computers used in TOS (TOS: “The Ultimate Computer”).

daystrom_conference_room

daystrom

 

Spacefight future history

In Admiral Markus’ office among other historical space flight vehicles, such as a Saturn V rocket and a Space Shuttle, there are also models from Star Trek’s future history, including the U.S.S Kelvin (from Star Trek 2009) NX-01 (Star Trek: Enterprise), the NX-Alpha (warp 2 test ship from the Star Trek: Enterprise episode “First Flight”), Cochrane’s Warp ship (Star Trek: First Contact), and the Enterprise XCV 330 “ring ship” (as seen on the wall of the rec deck in Star Trek: The Motion Picture , in a painting on the wall of the 602 Club in Star Trek: Enterprise, and rendered in the 2011 “Ships of the Line” calendar).

The models were made by Quantum Mechanix for the movie, see our article for more.

marcus_spaceflight

 

Mudd Incident

Sulu says over the comm system to ready the impounded trade ship from “the Mudd incident.” This is a reference to the prequel comic “Countdown into Darkness” and that story’s involvement with Harry Mudd’s half-Bajoran daughter.

mudd_ship

 

Mr. Hendorf

“Cupcake” gets a proper name: Hendorf. Which is an homage to another red shirt with the name from TOS “The Apple”.

stid_hendorf

tos_hendorf

 

Ketha Province

The region of Qo’noS the team go to is the Ketha Province, which is where General Martok (Star Trek: Deep Space 9) will come from in the Prime timeline’s future.

stid_ketha

martok

 

McCoy’s Tribble

Doctor McCoy has a Tribble in sickbay, used for testing in the movie. McCoy already has this Tribble when the movie opens thanks to the adventures of the ongoing comic book series where they faced the Tribbles in “The Truth About Tribbles”.

stid_tribble

The Truth About Tribbles

 

Nurse Chapel

Carol Marcus mentions her friend Christine Chapel who had told her of Kirk’s “reputation.” Chapel is of course a recurring character from the original Star Trek (played by Majel Barrett Roddenberry in TOS). The character was also mentioned in the 2009 Star Trek film and was part of the USS Enterprise medical staff at that time, before leaving for a deep space assignment (apparently chased off by Kirk’s womanizing ways). She may be the blond nurse seen very briefly in this ST 2009 screencap.

st09_maybe_chapel

 

The Gorn Babies

While McCoy boasts about his “legendary hands” during torpedo surgery he mentions that he had given a cesarean section to a pregnant Gorn and that the eight live-birth babies bit him as they came out (Star Trek The Video Game).

mccoy_famous_hands

 

Dr. Boyce

The attending physician’s name on the biobed monitor by Kirk when he wakes up in the hospital in San Francisco is Dr. Boyce, a reference to the ship’s doctor in the first Star Trek TV pilot “The Cage”, which is also where we first met the Prime timeline version of Pike.

boyce

boyce

 

MUSICAL EGGS

Amok Time Sting

As mentioned in an interview from April with Michael Giacchino, he was compelled by a fan on Twitter to include something from TOS at the last minute. That homage is the classic “Amok Time” fight music sting, which is heard very briefly after Spock beams down in a foot chase after Harrison through San Francisco. It starts at approximately the 1:54:20 mark, it’s just a couple of notes lasting only 2 seconds.

spock_amok

amok_time

 

Beastie Boys

Kirk is listening to an antique record of the Beastie Boys “Body Movin’ (Fat Boy Slim Remix)” while ‘entertaining’ twin cat-like ladies. This is a callback to young Kirk joyriding to “Sabotage” in Star Trek 2009, Kirk’s general interest in antiques in the Prime timeline, and thirdly, the Beastie Boys is a personal favorite of director of J.J. Abrams.

kirk_record_player_beastie_boys

 

ABRAMSVERSE EGGS:

Kelvin

The archive blown up in London is the called “Kelvin Memorial Archive”, named for George Kirk’s ship destroyed by Nero in Star Trek (2009). The name of the U.S.S. Kelvin itself is from J.J. Abrams own family, it was his grandfather’s last name. This is of course in addition to the more apparent homage to Lord Kelvin of the eponymous temperature scale.

kelvin_memorial_archive

 

Alcatraz

Alcatraz Island in the San Francisco Bay is taken out by the USS Vengeance, a possible nod by the producers to the quickly canceled Abrams show on FOX named Alcatraz.

 

Slusho

In the bar by the Port of San Francisco where Scotty and Keenser are blowing off steam about resigning from the Klingon mission, the bar tables have a rotating light-up “Slusho!” orb in the middle. Slusho is from Abrams’ Cloverfield.

stid_slusho

 

ILM’s R2-D2 EGG

As with Star Trek (2009) and many other ILM productions, there is a hidden R2-D2 in STID. Blink and you’ll miss him during the Vengeance firing on the Enterprise and ripping a hole in the hull while at warp.

stid_r2d2

That little droid sure gets around…

 

POSSIBLE EASTER EGGS

Praxis?

As the team approaches Qo’noS, there is a hulk of a dead moon, implying that the Klingon moon of Praxis was already over-mined in this timeline (Star Trek VI). As usual the writers are being coy and won’t say for sure that it’s Praxis.

stid_praxis

tuc_praxis

This seeming early destruction of Praxis may be related to a Section 31 operation that John Harrison carried out before the events of the movie. There is a reference to a “Praxxis Project” barely visible in the redacted text of the “leaked” Starfleet Memorandum document about Harrison found on AreYouThe1701.com [they appear to have misspelled the name, if it is indeed supposed to be in reference to the Klingon moon]. To see the memo for yourself read our article.

 

Bay Stadium?

It may be that the floating/hovering Bay Stadium that was seen in the Star Trek Enterprise episode “Home” is in SITD. The version in the film is a circular stadium/coliseum instead of the rectangular in shape seen in ENT.

stid_stadium

bay_stadium_2

 

Carol “Wallace”

Carol Marcus’ mother’s maiden name was Wallace, which is assumed to be an homage to Janet Wallace (TOS “The Deadly Years”).

wallace

Comments

1. Eric - September 11, 2013

I absolutely LOVED seeing Praxis all torn up! ST:VI is my favorite of the original 6 films (sue me) and it made me squeal in theaters :)

2. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 11, 2013

“That little droid sure gets around…”

Apparently, he does… :-)

3. KevinA Melbourne Australia - September 11, 2013

R2D2: Droid Trek!

4. star trackie - September 11, 2013

Great stuff. Great movie. Also, the atmospheric ambiance of the Klingon homeoworld was very “otherworldly” like that sounds of Talos 4, if not the same effect. it was music to my Trekkie ears! These guys know their TOS!

5. crazydaystrom - September 11, 2013

hmmm. Cool stuff. Thanks.

6. T'Cal - September 11, 2013

Fun stuff!

7. Razgriz - September 11, 2013

Daystrom was also used in the Star Trek Armada PC games, and I could have sworn I’ve heard it in an episode of one of the series as well.

8. Danpaine - September 11, 2013

Nice article, Matt. Nice screenshots.

9. X - September 11, 2013

I still can’t believe they did a tribble-human blood transfusion…

10. pilotfred - September 11, 2013

most of it i already picked up however a few,sweet

11. Vultan - September 11, 2013

So… are the Klingons in big trouble with Praxis again? Wasn’t it supposed to mess up their atmosphere or something? “They are dying,” yes? Peace talks? Federation outreach?

Kind of a big deal….

12. Zip - September 11, 2013

Nice, Been doing your homework. I only caught 1/2 them in the theatre.

13. Steve-o - September 11, 2013

I dont like how “human” the caitians looked. google image them….
some of those are a little much, but i think more of a feline look would have looked better.

14. BatlethInTheGroin - September 11, 2013

If Orci is saying those are Caitians, then he’s on drugs. Clearly, they are NOT Caitians, as Caitians are fur-covered.

15. BatlethInTheGroin - September 11, 2013

And Hendorf was named in the comic long before STID.

16. BatlethInTheGroin - September 11, 2013

And Slusho long predates Cloverfield.

17. JimJ - September 11, 2013

GREAT movie and fun stuff! I caught them all except R2D2. Not surprised about that little guy, though. I am guessing JJ will put something Star Trek into his Star Wars movie???

18. Mad Mann - September 11, 2013

I love the shots of Qo’noS. While I am not totally happy with the production designs on the new movie, especially the bridge and engineering, I absolutely LOVE the designs of the Klingons. That shot of Qo’noS just oozes with coolness.

I’m so hoping for more Klingons in the next one, and maybe some more Klingon easter eggs….

19. Ahmed - September 11, 2013

‘Star Trek’s’ Alex Kurtzman Talks Khan, Kirk’s Journey & Carol Marcus’ Underwear

http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2013/09/10/star-treks-alex-kurtzman-talks-khan-kirks-journey-carol-marcus-underwear/

20. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 11, 2013

OK. Now I am waiting to see the Enterprise, or at least a shuttlecraft in Star Wars 7.

21. Mr. Anonymous - September 11, 2013

Are there any hidden easter eggs on the discs themselves? Like, secret menus somewhere?

22. South African Dude - September 11, 2013

Slusho was in Alias already was it not,

Anyhow, excellent article, made me smile

Satisfying to actually know all the references. I am also rewatching every trek incarnation in chronological order before finally watching STID (Again) he he he – It’s so wonderful to revisit the universe, prime or jjverse.

23. Trekboi - September 11, 2013

In Australia we don’t call them “Easter Eggs” we usually only call the hidden special features on discs “Easter Eggs” so when I saw this article I got excited & thought there were some hidden featurettes on the disc :(

24. Jason - September 11, 2013

Some bloody deleted scenes would’ve been better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

25. The Keeper - September 11, 2013

The best Easter Egg would have been discovering the hidden story…

26. Simon - September 11, 2013

@23 – aaaand we have our first threadcrap.

@22 – yes, I thought the article would be about hidden special features on the newly released BD/DVDs. Not subtle references to things known since it was released theatrically.

27. sean - September 11, 2013

Slusho usually makes an appearance in every Abrams production, all the way back to Alias. It was also in the 2009 Trek, as Uhura orders ‘the Slusho mix’ at the bar.

Also, callbacks like the Ketha Province and Dr Boyce are pretty deep catalog stuff, so it always surprises me when people cry that Orci or the production crew in general aren’t Trek fans. Only Trek fans would even bother to make those kinds of references.

28. Trekboi - September 11, 2013

I spotted most of them, except Boyce, the stadium & R2D2

29. CAPT KRUNCH - September 11, 2013

Why no deleted scenes????? There has to be some, right?
There had beeter be some TREK eggs in the next STAR WARS movie, right J.J.???

30. bmar - September 11, 2013

For that matter – it’s not an easter egg, but if you read the text on the monitor at the London Archive/Secret Weapons facility, at approximately 18:56 into the movie it reads:

WEAPONS SUMMARY: STEALTH FUNCTION SUCCESSFULLY ACTIVATED VIA REMOTE CAPABILITY AFTER LAUNCH. TORPEDOES THEREFORE FALL WITHIN TREATY SPECIFICATIONS BANNING CLOAKED OR PRE-EMPTIVE WEAPONS. REMOTE STEALTH CAPABILITY TO BE DISCLOSED SOLELY AT THE DISCRETION OF THE THEATER COMMANDER/ADMIRAL AND ONLY TO THE CAPTAIN OR FIRST OFFICER OF PARTICIPATING VESSEL. THOUGH CHIEF ENGINEER WOULD TYPICALLY REQUIRE AND BE ENTITLED TO DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS OF ANY CARGO ON BOARD, SECTION 31 HAS BEEN GRANTED SPECIAL ACCESS PRIVILEGES PERMITTING DISCLOSURE ONLY AT THE DISCRETION OF THE THEATER COMMANDER/ADMIRAL.

This basically teases out the whole “Scotty says no” scene later.

31. bmar - September 11, 2013

Also – re my post above, you have to love the idea of Starfleet bending the rules, which apparently prohibit the launch of cloaked weapons.

“Oh, these cloak AFTER they launch, so we’re not launching cloaked weapons, strictly speaking.”

32. Star Trek is Broken! - September 11, 2013

Star Trek is broken and STID flopped and the next film should be scrapped in favour of a new tv series with new characters written by the very best SF writers around (not by the writers of big blockbuster films like Transformers) and be all about exploring the unknown so who cares about all these so called homages in the worst Trek film ever made!!

33. Commodore Adams - September 11, 2013

@ 1. Eric. I agree, to see Praxis was a great nod, and ST VI is still my favourite movie by far. ST II is a little over rated, it does have the layers and depth an interspecies conspiracy does.

I loved Into Darkness, it is fantastic. I’ve watched it twice since I purchased it yesterday (yea I love Star Trek and I have a problem lol) I love not only the obvious reasons this movie is Star Trek but all the subtle things they put into this movie as indicated in this article. I can’t wait to see what they come up with for the next (and expected final) movie in this series.

Would have been cool to see those Klingon ships uncloaking when they surrounded Kirk and crew on Mudd’s ship but technically Klingons have not obtained the cloak tech from the Romulans yet. But with Narada Romulan/Borg tech, who know what kind of ships the Klingons will have if indeed there is a Klingon conflict in the next movie.

34. Bob the Evil Klingon Supervisor - September 11, 2013

Early in the film when the sick child is given Khan’s blood the sound effects t used as her vital signs improve is the same effect used during the Genesis demonstration TWOK.

35. Elias Javalis - September 11, 2013

The moment Kirk says..”oh be damned” about the cryo-tubes and the Enterprise’s warp core shuts down – there is a music cue reminiscent of Khan’s pets in Star Trek II : TWOK..!

36. TUP - September 11, 2013

I watched the film last night and I hate to say that I like it less on repeated viewings. I very much enjoyed it the first time I saw it.

I think now I pay more attention to the logic holes especially when a little bit more creativity would explain them. For writers that claim they spent a lot of time discussing cannon, there seemed far too many examples where they said “shhhh, no one will notice.”

I watched with my gf who is not a Trek fan but did enjoy the 2009 movie. She had “heard” Khan was the bad guy and as soon as BC appeared she said “is that the guy that’s supposed to be Ricardo Montalban?” She wasnt buying it.

Reading the story where Oric explains that they wrote the movie with an original character and then made him Khan just because they could really disappointed me. That’s not at all in keeping with writers who truly care about that character. They shoehorned him in. As soon as they cast BC, that should have been the hit over the head they needed to change the story.

In theatre, I loved the death scene homage to WOK. It gave me chills. I wanted them to go even further with the dialogue. In watching it at home, I can see why some fans felt it took them out of the movie, almost like it was a parody.

However, I still maintain they ended the movie on a wholly unsatisfying line from Kirk. Ofcourse his final line should have been “Second star to the right. Straight on til morning.” Even in theatre I expected that line to come. It was set up perfectly. Not sure how the writers missed that one.

37. Khan 2.0 - September 11, 2013

what about some of the costumes which were highly reministant of previous ones:

-TMP style uniforms at certain points (Admiral Pike/Marcus, McCoys white medical tunic)

-McCoys medical T shirt (straight out of TOS)

-Kirks leather coat in the QonoS scenes (reminiscent of Shatners Trek III coat)

-the cloak/coat Khan was wearing on QonoS recalled Khans costume from TWOK (the way he was wrapped up at the start – like Khan on Ceti Alpha V and also the ribbed collar of his jacket, being highly reminiscent of Khans TWOK brown outfit)
http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/itskhan-collar.jpg

-Spocks volcano spacesuit looked abit like his TMP/VGer excursion one. It was even orange

plus also:
-the Klingon ships (the way they landed was very similar to end of Trek III)

-the exterior of the dock holding the Vengeance resembles the Epsilon IX Station (TMP)

-The safety belts that Spock, Sulu, et al wear (NEMESIS – deleted end scene)

-like the Amok Time thing, im pretty sure there were TWOK Horner cues are used in the score (e.g. in opening, in the ‘My Name is Khan’ scene)

38. Killamarshtrek - September 11, 2013

Has anyone noticed the music from when the ships land on Kronos is VERY reminiscent of the ‘Ruk’ music from TOS ‘What Are Little Girls Made Of’?

39. sean - September 11, 2013

#32

“However, I still maintain they ended the movie on a wholly unsatisfying line from Kirk. Ofcourse his final line should have been “Second star to the right. Straight on til morning.” Even in theatre I expected that line to come. It was set up perfectly. Not sure how the writers missed that one.”

I don’t think that would have worked at all. It fit in TUC because that was their final mission together. It was Kirk’s last act of defiance. It would have seemed very out of place in STID.

40. Daoud - September 11, 2013

Yeah, if one wanted to lift a line, it would have better with “Thataway.”
.
(As in the script, throw that away? ;) )

41. TUP - September 11, 2013

It would have worked because they were flying into the unknown. What actually struck me was Kirk and Spock seemingly having no plan as to where they were going. Do they not have to file a flight plan? Ofcourse they could have been joking (which Kirk telling Sulu to take it out would imply he had a course entered already).

But Kirk asking Spock where he wanted to go, Spock replying it was up to Kirk and it being the beginning of Starfleet’s first five year mission into unknown space, I think the line would have worked perfectly to convey that sense of adventure and unknown.

42. The Keeper - September 11, 2013

Space, We’ve seen it all before.
These are the repeated voyages of the starship Enterprise.
Sent out on an all expensed paid five year mission.
To avoid new life forms and pass by new civilizations.
To boldly go needlessly where we don’t need to go again.

43. PEB - September 11, 2013

The gray coat and slacks uniform (without) the hat really looks like an early version of the TMP film uniforms. If they were re-colored red, had the belt, with a few other minor tweaks… It works as a precursor. In my mind at least. Have watched the movie 3 times since buying it and I still like it. I feel the same way about it as I did Mass Effect 3, great fun, really enjoyed it, was great up until the ending (in Star Trek’s case, it was the whole realignment sequence and San Fran dash but got good again from the hospital scene to the final warp). And like replaying Mass Effect 3 with the extended ending, after rewatching ITD, I’m okay with it all. The 3rd installment can and should be better but this was a solid film.

44. Marja - September 11, 2013

12 Steve-O and 13 Batleth, Agreed.

I retcon it by saying there are a number of Caitian sub-groups : )

There’s M’Ress, the lion-like group, the Caitians from the TOS movies [STVI?] also? the lion-like group, and there’s this group of ??? Caitians who look human except for the thingies on their necks and their earlobs, whut. Haha, Kirk “got some tail” [rolly eyes]. Were they afraid of grossing people out with what MIGHT have appeared to be bestiality?

19, yep, I want to see a Constitution class starship at some spaceport : ) Only a “Connie” will do.

22 Trekboi, one could only wish, I suppose, MAYBE someday if they ever do a “complete” DVD release ….

28 & 29 bmar, holy crap, good catch. I have a prob with the wording, though: THEATRE Commander? For the most part [except for “Cadet” which would be “Midshipman”] Starfleet uses Naval terminology and this sounds ground-related. Would be “Area Commander” in the USCG anyways. On the “weaselly” wording re: cloaked, yup, nesty politik has entered the Starfleet : (

33 Khan2.0, yep! Though McCoy’s “medical T-shirt” was not an EXACT copy. It was silver, for one; TOS McCoy’s was blue. But I loved the tribute. Urban wore it well.

45. TUP - September 11, 2013

39 – I thought the San Fran chase was one of the best chase sequences I’ve ever seen. It was very well directed and acted, showing a lot of emotion and intensity. Spock’s psi-attach was a very nice touch.

46. Sebastian - September 11, 2013

When they said ‘easter eggs’ I was kind of hoping that there were more hidden bonus features on the otherwise paltry blu-ray release, and not things I mostly noticed already when I saw the film in the theatrical release.

47. JB - September 11, 2013

There is a post over at Trekweb.com about a deleted scene in Marcus’s office that shows a TOS Constitution-class model hanging from the ceiling. Does anyone know if this is genuine?

48. bmar - September 11, 2013

40. Marja – Pretty sure that “THEATER” is used in Navy too. Know there are some more military types who hang out here, I think they could confirm. I remember hearing in my history classes about the “PACIFIC THEATER” during WW2 and that meant land, sea, air – the whole shebang.

49. BatlethInTheGroin - September 11, 2013

#31: “oh be damned?” I’m quite sure Kirk never says that, since that phrase makes no sense.

50. BatlethInTheGroin - September 11, 2013

#38: Please try again, but with humor. Thanks.

51. Marja - September 11, 2013

41 TUP, I like the chase too. I felt the fight got a bit too brutal, but I liked the Psi attack too. I imagine Spock was hitting Khan with the loss of six billion Vulcans …. 72 is as nothing to that.

44, bmar, yeah, okay, I was in the CG, and we used “OSC” – On-Scene Commander for the leader in an oil spill cleanup or overseeing the operations at major sea disaster, or “Area Commander” for someone administratively directing and overseeing, say, the Pacific Area.

Yes, the Pacific Theatre referred to a specific sector of a world-wide war involving land sea and air forces.

45 bmar, “Oh be damned” makes sense to me, but I read historical novels : )

52. TUP - September 11, 2013

47 – the brutality of the fight was important. It paid off Khan’s taunting of Spock earlier as being unwilling to break bones when required. And showed his blind rage and the loss of Kirk. it was a young, less-in-control Spock and I loved it. I only wished he had overcome Khan on his own without Uhura’s help. Her beaming down just as Spock overcame Khan would have been better in my opinion, leaving us with the question, would Spock have killed Khan…

53. spock - September 11, 2013

The plant on one of the trees in the nibru jungle reminded me of the plant gertrude Sulu had in his quarters in Man Trap

54. spock - September 11, 2013

#48 when Spock was beating on Khan it reminded me of the scene in the first movie when he was beating on the bullies.

55. TUP - September 11, 2013

#50 excellent point.

56. James - September 11, 2013

Loved the film, really love the easter eggs. Thanks for this article – I hadn’t spotted some of them!

Is it true that a deleted scene in Admiral Marcus’ office shows the TOS Matt Jefferies Enterprise hanging from the ceiling?

57. Khan 2.0 - September 11, 2013

@50 – yes indeed – also Kirk beating Khan with a piece of equipment in Space Seed (another role reversal -like Kirk dying – this time its Spock v Khan- in this timeline its pretty much Spock whos the main character – Kirk even says it – its not me…its you Spock)

58. Dunsel Report - September 11, 2013

If only they had hidden away the Easter Egg of a compelling story.

59. Matt Wright - September 11, 2013

@ 56 – “Is it true that a deleted scene in Admiral Marcus’ office shows the TOS Matt Jefferies Enterprise hanging from the ceiling?”

I saw that on Twitter, TrekCore is trying to authenticate it. It supposedly comes as a bonus when you buy the Xbox Live digital edition of STID.

60. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 11, 2013

I can’t wait to get my own copy of STID – another week before its release here. Whether I get just the DVD or the ‘all singing, all dancing’ Blu-ray version will depend on what actually is available on the versions released here.

…“Second star to the right. Straight on til morning.” – no, in my opinion, that would not have been appropriate in STID. That is a quote from Peter Pan, who also known as the ‘boy who never grew up’. To have an aging Kirk say it resonates very well with me and my interpretation of Kirk’s character; to have a very young Kirk say it – not so much…

61. Harry Ballz - September 11, 2013

Never saw STID at the theatre. Bought the DVD and watched it last night.

Boy, they really stunk up the place with this one.

The storyline was absurd. There was absolutely no need to use Khan and we, the audience, don’t have enough history with these rebooted characters to care about Kirk’s “death”. Yawn.

It was simply a bunch of action scenes strung together. Pure crap.

I really wish I hadn’t bought the DVD, as I won’t be watching this movie again.

62. Aurore - September 11, 2013

“I really wish I hadn’t bought the DVD, as I won’t be watching this movie again.”
_______

Send it to me.

I haven’t watched it yet.

(Waste not, want not.).

:)

63. Lords of Kobol Book - September 11, 2013

In the special feature “Rebuilding the Bridge,” there’s a closeup of a control panel that seemed to be a homage to “Knight Rider” to me: http://i.imgur.com/ZoI3ZOf.jpg

64. VorlonKosh - September 11, 2013

I thought Spock’s mind meld was Spock relaying to Khan that all his augments did not blow up with the ship and in reality were all okay…that is why Khan looked surprised and jumped away to another barg.

65. Bird of Prey - September 11, 2013

Shouldn’t Caitans have fur?
These two are apparently felines who have removed their hair! <— There is a non-PG pun hidden in there! ;-)

66. Ahmed - September 11, 2013

@ 62. Aurore – September 11, 2013

“I haven’t watched it yet.”

How come ?

67. Nony - September 11, 2013

I get the feeling the writers wouldn’t have dared use that Chapel line if Majel had still been alive to see the movie. Imagine them having to admit to her that her character is no longer part of the crew and the only reference to her is that Kirk slept with and then forgot about her. Sigh.

Also, there’s a specific reference to the Gorn c-section in the game — Bones is telling Kirk over the comm that Sulu stunned a pregnant Gorn, he decided to try and save the baby, and when he got it out it bit him. It was only one baby then, though, not octuplets.

68. Phil - September 11, 2013

@59. Why would it matter, anyway? Didn’t Marcus also have a model of the super secret USS Vengeance on his desk, too?

69. The Keeper - September 11, 2013

Yes, we know and understand that these new Star Trek films are aimed at the “NEW” fan, but lets not cheat all fans “old ” and ‘new’ and “yet to join” from the original story telling experience either.
Don’t treat “US” or the General Audience as Stupid mindless plods only there for the pop corn and butter.
If the new team of writers wants to make this Star Trek as different as possible, then why tread over old sacred ground?
Why not evolve new stories with new unheard of villains and situations while throwing a little bit of real science, social commentaries and human experience at us in a fun and exciting way?
Plus slipping in all that Star Trek trivia stuff for die hard fans to find…

70. Danny - September 11, 2013

The picture quality of this Blu-ray is the clearest I’ve ever seen. The scenes with Kirk talking to Khan behind glass, the detail on Kirk’s shirt looks so clear it’s like he’s standing in the room with you.

71. Captain_Conrad - September 11, 2013

Anyone know if the Catian chicks are single?

72. PEB - September 11, 2013

@68, from someone who LOVED the new movie, that was a problem. You almost forget about it when watching it the first time but then when you can go back and rewind you’re like “…if this was supposed to be a secret ship, WHY is it on his desk for EVERYONE to see and ask ‘hey marcus, what ship is that? never seen that in the fleet before.'”
Would’ve preferred to see JJ’s Enterprise model there as the next evolution of starship. But what’s done is done.

Anyone know where you can get your hands on a JJprise that’s better quality than the hot wheels one and smaller than the toy? I just want to display it on my desk along with my Art Aslyum refit Enterprise.

73. Marja - September 11, 2013

52 TUP, Yeah, I got that about Khan cracking that Spock couldn’t break a rule, how could he be expected to break bone, so Spock broke his … er … arm, but gosh I disliked the bone crunchin’ in STiD.

57 Khan2.0, Maybe that’s why I like JJTrek so much … I still wish Spock was the captain and Kirk his First Officer : p

64 Vorlon, interesting, I thought Khan was trying to shake off the thought Spock sent him.

65 Bird of Prey, I saw what you did thar ; )

67 Nony, I hate that the women Kirk sleeps with are “disposable.” And I especially hate that they did that with Chapel. I’d love to see Chapel on the Enterprise giving McCoy some guff! I would also love to see Gaila again, she was a wonderful character, used too too briefly. ST: needs more women characters! Actually appearing on the screen!

Ooh! Here’s an idea. Chapel’s back on the Enterprise and has to give Kirk a shot, and BOY does he regret his previous behavior. [snicker]

71 Conrad, I’m sure Kirk knows but I doubt you could ask him : )

Actually when I watched the “rebuilding the Bridge” and looked at how many beautifully tailored costumes there are in the movie, and so on, I’m gettin’ a pretty good picture of where the $190M went. I loved those dress uniforms, man. I just wish Spock had said, “You are out of uniform, Captain,” when Kirk was walking around outdoors with his hat off. BAD Jimmy. BAD boy.

I love that Dr. Boyce Easter Egg catch. Good one.

74. izmunuti - September 11, 2013

The Beastie Boys had a mutual affection for Star Trek, with references in both songs and at least one video (if memory serves).

75. Dennis C - September 11, 2013

The name Kelvin is actually a nod to JJ’s grandfather, if memory serves. His last name is Kelvin.

76. Colin - September 11, 2013

The San Francisco Bay Stadium was located adjacent to San Francisco, not across the bay. See here:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:San_Francisco_Bay_Stadium.jpg

We have a Shuttle 7 in the film. It would have been sweet if the shuttle was named Galileo. Alas, it was not to be. The model bore no name.

77. Joe - September 11, 2013

Keep these articles coming. I love the detailed inside info and I don’t want to hand over $.01 more to the lazy writers and director that cut and paste this mess together.

78. porthoses bitch - September 11, 2013

What puzzles me the lost video sales by letting me buy a blu ray and including a dvd. And a digital copy…I give those to my friennds…all the studios do it.. just seems crazy. Last week I bought Sharknado same deal..my Big Bang Theory same thing. Next week World War Z…..again.

By the way I bought the Target version of STID… hard copy of the extras and some good coupons including 2 bucks off WW Z !

79. Robman007 - September 11, 2013

Vengeance used a variant of the M-5 computer as well.

80. John in Canada, eh? - September 11, 2013

As others have noted, usually “Easter Eggs” refer to hidden treasures on a DVD (or Blu-Ray) disc, so named as you have to hunt for them using special gestures. This article is a nice list of “Callbacks” to other moments in the Franchise – but other than the R2D2 sighting, most of these are plainly visible, so aren’t technically ‘Easter eggs.’

(But again, a nice list!)

81. John in Canada, eh? - September 11, 2013

By the way, just saw all 10 of the original & TNG movies in the new Blu-ray collection set at Costco (Canada) for $79 – a great deal!

82. sean - September 11, 2013

#41

The line isn’t about the unknown, though. It’s about Kirk refusing an adult responsibility (to return to spacedock for decommissioning) and being defiant one last time. STID is about a young, defiant Kirk accepting adult responsibility, so the line actually would have played against the movie’s themes.

83. sean - September 11, 2013

#80

An Easter Egg is an inside joke or hidden reference, so these are indeed easter eggs. The term also encompasses hidden items on DVDs/Blurays, but is not limited to that.

84. Buzz Cagney - September 11, 2013

#4 no question about that, they definitely know their TOS. If only they could come up with a cracking story they’d be unbeatable.

85. TUP - September 12, 2013

The line would have played to Kirks sense of adventure and unknown. And a lot better than what we got.

The secret ship on display in the admirals office…. Yikes. What idiot allowed that? I actually engaged in a tense debate with a buddy after our first viewing about that. He said it was the secret ship and I said no way, that makes no sense. I was wrong.

There just seemed to be such a lack of quality control. They really need (and are certainly not the only ones) a continuity producer who’s sole job is to pick apart all the logic holes and canon/continuity violations. I can accept some logic leaps but the ones I can’t accept are when there is a better or easier way to avoid it or when the hole is too big to over look

For example

– Kirk being able to call Scotty on a hand held communicator from such a distance. I can accept that. Sure it would be more plausible if there was some dialogue staying they needed to use communications relays or Scotty had to answer on a “wired in” unit but for the sake of moving the film along I can accept it

– proximity of everything. I can accept this in moving the movie along.

– trans warp device. Can’t accept this. A small device capable of beaming between worlds undetected? Eliminates the need for space travel. It was stupid. Khan should have used his ingenuity to escape.

– super blood. I can accept khans blood has healing properties. There was never anything in canon to state otherwise. But Bones specifically said he used the blood to create a synthetic “cure”. Thus Bones has cured death. It wasn’t even a matter of having a limited amount of blood. He synthesized it! The solution would have been Kirk not actually dying but being gravely injured.

– the HORRIBLE tribble scene. Unbelievably hack-ish lead-pipe style hiring us over the head with a foreshadow. Takes me out of the film every time I see it. I can’t fathom how that scene made it to the final cut.

– the illogic of Marcus’ plan involving khan in the first place. I don’t care how smart khan is he’s 300 years behind. WOK established that he didn’t fully grasp advanced technology but now he’s designing futuristic weapons? Come on. It was such a leap in logic simply because the writers needed a reason for Marcus to have thawed out khan. Why was Marcus even looking for khan? How did he know to look for khan? If he hasn’t stumbled upon khan would he never have set about creating war?

As for the fist fight mind meld, I think it was obvious Spock was “psi” attacking him.

86. OLLEY OLLEY OLLEY - September 12, 2013

Is anyone else ticked off with the campaign of stonewalling that occurred before STID even went into production?

“soft prep” in a hotel bar
“we want to take our time to make a great film and not be rushed into making a bad one”
“JJ wants to make sure that everything is perfect”

Only to get this Junk?

I watched Red Letter Medias review of STID and disagreed with only one thing. I would not recommend it, even if I was getting a cheque from the studio.

87. Dunsel Report - September 12, 2013

#86: I agree with you wholeheartedly. It seems clear that despite the talk of “taking our time to make a great film,” STID simply did not receive the amount of care and attention to detail that ST09 did.

While the ST09 script may not have been any better than STID’s — it’s online and it’s full of bro-dude cuss words in the stage directions, i.e. “A f——- FACE shows up on the Enterprise!” — it seems like J.J. took the time to make every moment as funny or impactful as possible. Here everything just seemed kinda underdeveloped, including Khan.

88. Spock's Bangs - September 12, 2013

86 “Is anyone else ticked off with the campaign of stonewalling that occurred before STID even went into production?”

Hardly. Can’t argue with the results, Into Darkness was great!

89. fatmanbruno - September 12, 2013

ever wanted to be transported away when shopping with the mrs – here’s how!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4RbF2tjTt0

90. Jason Medeiros - September 12, 2013

This is for you Bob Orci:

You would think the following would be big news on this site:

STID is currently sitting at #1, 2 and 18 ( various editions) for Blu Ray Sales in the U.S., when adjusted for worldwide sales, it sits at #1, 2, and 18 and worth noting ST09 has shot back up to #12 due to the popularity of STID ( http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/top.php ). STID is not only owning home video sales, it was also the #7 movie of 2013 ( http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2013&p=.htm ). Too bad Star Trek is “Broken” huh? It was doing WAY better than this before you guys came along. Sarcasm at maximum power Captain.

91. Danpaine - September 12, 2013

62. Aurore – September 11, 2013
“I really wish I hadn’t bought the DVD, as I won’t be watching this movie again.”
_______

Send it to me.

I haven’t watched it yet.

(Waste not, want not.).

———————————————————

You can have mine. I fell asleep in front of it last night….

92. star trackie - September 12, 2013

Thanks Jason, does my heart good to see Trek kicking ass and taking names! People and fans who love the movie don’t haunt message boards and blogs, they vote their aproval with their $$!! While the doom-and-gloomers repeat over and over, to anyone that will listen, how horrible and “broken” Trek is now, hoping if they repeat it enough people will believe it. Sorry, haters, It ain’t working!

93. TUP - September 12, 2013

@92 – thats not entirely fair. Regardless of what is written online, good & bad, it will ofcourse only represent a small number of the wider fanbase. And I do believe people will more likely take time to complain than compliment. But thoughtful criticism shouldn’t be ignored.

94. Curious Cadet - September 12, 2013

@73. Marja,
” I still wish Spock was the captain and Kirk his First Officer : p”

You know what’s interesting about that? Spock was Pikes xo for a LONG time, and then became Kirk’s for a long time in the a prime Universe. Whereas Kirk rose to command a starship rather quickly by comparison. While admittedly exploring Spock as a captain in the new universe would be interesting, it seems to be out of character with what we’ve seen in the prime universe. Indeed, Bones is virtualy harassing Spock about his “first command” in the Galileo 7, and I actually believe Spock when he says he’s not interested. It seems to me what motivates Spock is his quest for knowledge. In that regard he is the perfect science officer, an aspect of his character I don’t feel we get much of in this universe. I fondly recall the scenes where Spock and McCoy worked side-by-side in the lab together. Granted watching Spock process information is not the most exciting thing, but it’s a fundemntal aspect of who he is. All the focus on this action-oriented stuff is a bit out of character for Spock, or at least compromising of that which is at his core.

95. Jason Medeiros - September 12, 2013

@92 Thank You and I agree. Truth be told, this is my first time doing this. I was so frustrated I couldn’t keep quite anymore. The yellers and screamers ( I’m not including people who’s opinion differs from mine but can have intelligent debate) have to realize they are a very vocal minority. The people have spoken with their wallets and Star Trek is not only successful but it’s actually cool again and certainly not “Broken” I’ll never forget when ST09 came out and while some of the same yellers and screamers were angry that JJ didn’t shoehorn Shatner in somehow, my two female cousins (at the time ages 18 and 14) showed up at my house and excitedly asked me if they could borrow my DVD’s of TOS. They not only loved ST09 and STID, but they retroactively fell in love with everything that came before. You see, this is how you grow a franchise, so kudos to Orci and company for Boldly taking Star Trek in a new direction and building a whole new generation of fans. I actually greatly appreciate the fact Bob even engages us despite the venom he sometimes encounters. Name any other Hollywood person who would do the same. I’m actually surprised he didn’t blow up sooner.

96. Data - September 12, 2013

Well U guys missed a very important easter egg…its the line uttered by Kirk to Spock in the movie but it is the easter egg in the sense it perfectly demonstrates what JJ did with Star Trek franchise. Read it as JJs’ dialog towards the trek fans

“I have no idea what am supposed to, I only know what I can do””The Enterprise and her crew needs someone in that chair who knows what he is doing, its not me”

97. BatlethInTheGroin - September 12, 2013

#80: That is incorrect. These are, indeed, Easter eggs. The term does not just refer to hidden extras.

98. BatlethInTheGroin - September 12, 2013

#80: That is incorrect. These are, indeed, Easter eggs. The term does not just refer to hidden extras.

99. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

Caitains.

No one has mentioned them.

Personally I was disappointed by there rendering. The tail looked like an afterthought, and Trek missed an opportunity to truly make this a real eye catching scene.

If I were to direct this scene, those girls would have been in makeup all day getting their hair put on all over their bodies, and their fingers would have been very paw like. Like in the cartoon image. Why did they get this so wrong? I’ve been waiting to see Caitain-like woman covered in fur for some time (since TAS), IU can’t believe I am still wondering what that would look like. And there is not a good pic like that on the internet, anywhere!

Seriously, Caitains? Their tales even looked like a special effects afterthought. Similar to how they gooed the eyes of the medic that helping Kirk’s mom at the start of ST09.

Try better the next time you try using a Caitain character.

100. Curious Cadet - September 12, 2013

@90. Jason Medeiros,
“This is for you Bob Orci…STID is not only owning home video sales”

Do you work for Paramount or Bad Robot?

I think this is genius, have Bob Orci snap at a fan publicly so that all the “boycott the video for Abrams and Paramount’s multi-edition-extras cash grab” talk gets turned into, “support Trek from the haters and buy the video”. ;-)

I think Star Trek’s success is great, but what they’ve done with the BluRay/home video is a slap in the face to the fans and supporters (those primarily interested in the extras), and promoting the sale of the BluRay is only going to come back and hurt the true fans and supporters of Abrams Star Trek and Star Trek in general, as the studios will use the success of this release as justification to double-dip, nickel and dime, and generally offer less for more to the fans.

Sometimes we have to change our focus so you can see the forest and not just the trees …

101. ME!! - September 12, 2013

Those models did NOT include a Saturn V (the rocket that took men to the moon). They DID include an Ares V, however (which is the rocket NASA was developing to carry men back to the moon & on to Mars before some moron decided to scrap the project & turn it into something else).

And since Trekmovie didn’t bother to give us a link to the full set of images of those ship models:

http://www.qmxonline.com/news/stid-history-of-starflight-models/

Each can be clicked on for a larger version.

102. LogicalLeopard - September 12, 2013

96. Data – September 12, 2013
Well U guys missed a very important easter egg…its the line uttered by Kirk to Spock in the movie but it is the easter egg in the sense it perfectly demonstrates what JJ did with Star Trek franchise. Read it as JJs’ dialog towards the trek fans

“I have no idea what am supposed to, I only know what I can do””The Enterprise and her crew needs someone in that chair who knows what he is doing, its not me”

***********************************************

Wow….I’m sorry you missed the significance of that line. Take the new movies for what you will, but for those who don’t consider it to be “Trek”, enjoy it for what it is: Alterna Trek. The equivalent of the “What If” comic books, or a “Choose Your Own Adventure Book.”

That line says volumes about their correct analysis of Kirk. Take Kirk out of his Prime reality, and throw him into a world where he has little to no parental governance and pain from having a father he didn’t know. Well, we’d like to see it turn out correctly, but when you take a smart, brash, amorous man and remove parental involvement, you get a juvenile deliquent like nu-Kirk oftentimes. But because he has that propensity for greatness, it shines through at times.

So, after mixing ability with luck in the first movie, Kirk is promoted far more quickly than he was in the Prime universe, and he finds himself doing something that he’s not used to – failing. Eventually, it starts to chip away at his confidence, but not his desire and “Kirkness”. So he says, “I have NO idea what I’m supposed to do, I only know what I can do.” It’s rather brilliant, I think. The line really forshadows his Engine room “death”, which….yes I’ll say it….was more tragic than Spock’s death. Not a better scene, just infinitely more tragic. The poor guy was running around the universe with no idea what he should be doing, but knew enough to do what he could do. And to me, there was something kind of suicidal about the whole thing too. He had already failed MISERABLY taking on Marcus and Khan, so it’s less of a cold calculation/noble sacrifice like Spock’s, and more of a “Somebody’s gotta do this, and it might as well be me. Scotty doesn’t deserve this, he’s worth 100 of me. ” But at the end, like us all, he got scared. Man, my heart went out to him. Like I said, we all know and love the Spock death scene….but this one was very realistic and complex. If anyone didn’t feel that in the theatres, they’re a green-blooded hobgoblin!

103. Jason Medeiros - September 12, 2013

@100 No, I don’t work for Bad Robot or Paramount, if I did, I would’ve made Admiral Marcus a descendent of John Frederick Paxton, but in all seriousness, I wasn’t commenting on the what they did with the extras with which I agree with you, I was addressing the idea that Star Trek is somehow “Broken”

104. Chain of Command - September 12, 2013

I wish ILM would stop with the R2 D2/ Star Wars homages already.

105. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

Curious.

The box does say, “Star Trek into Dark-ness.”
Not, “Star Trek into Dark-ness Extras.”

I would recommend that you just be satisfied that you are buying a good expensive Hollywood production in BluRay HD and leave the extras for later when you are browsing the net.

Clip provided cause it makes for a chewier post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J-v9u42h_k

106. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@100 Curious

“I think this is genius, have Bob Orci snap at a fan publicly so that all the “boycott the video for Abrams and Paramount’s multi-edition-extras cash grab” talk gets turned into, “support Trek from the haters and buy the video”. ;-)”

You know, I wouldn’t put it past them…

Still, I’m not so sure about the long-term effects of such a strategy, if in fact that’s what it is. Frankly, I knew I’d never get this film on DVD/Blu-Ray after seeing it once. That was well more than enough for me… All this cash-grab-Orci-“loses it” huckabaloo had nothing to do with a decision I made months ago… I’m glad I was never on the fence about making a purchase.

107. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@#86 OLLEY

“I watched Red Letter Medias review of STID and disagreed with only one thing. I would not recommend it, even if I was getting a cheque from the studio.”

But they didn’t recommend it. The guy that did recommend STID only did so because he was being paid by the studio to do so, and that was of course a joke. What they were saying is that’s how bad STID is.

And before anyone jumps on the word “bad,” of course it is a subjective term…

108. rogerachong - September 12, 2013

Although the novelization is not strictly canon being a book it should be able to deal with some gaps that might appear on screen. From the novel some points for what its worth.

Red shirt Hendorff (cupcake) is killed by the Klingons on Qo’nos during the big fight / shootout. In the film both redshirts strangely disappear from the film after Uhura talks to the Klingons.

On Khan Teleporting: He doesn’t go straight from Earth to Qo’noS, it’s more that he does bunny hops with each one requiring more power to go a greater distance. The final hop is from a cargo ship or station which uses so much power that it completely burns out the transwarp/transporter device which prevents anyone from following after him.

The film shows that it wasn’t a direct beaming to Qo’nos because if you look closer when Khan appears on Qo’noS he’s wearing a coat that he wasn’t wearing in the jump ship while attacking Starfleet. So clearly he could not change his clothes while beaming directly from the small ship to Qo’nos.

See problem solved for all those who do not pay close attention

Once again in the novel they say that Spock only armed one torpedo and the rest detonated when the first exploded and then there was a chain reaction. Look closely at the film and there is a number on the first torpedo that detonates. Five points to those who noticed that. The first torpedo to explode in the Vengeance bay is #6660. Is that a coincidence boborci, a message maybe?

Easter eggs are fun and can be a really good eyeopener. It also shows that some are too quick to jump on the hate bandwagon. LLAP and have some FUN!

109. Eric - September 12, 2013

@7 – Daystrom Institute is where B4 is sent in the novels set after Nemsis. It is also metioned at the end of the STNG comic Hive that came out last year from IDW.

110. Ensign RedShirt - September 12, 2013

I’m waiting until they release a definitive version with ALL the extras. The way Paramount Home Entertainment marketed this release is a disgrace. I completely understand the appeal of the retail incentive, but when you need to purchase 4 or 5 versions of the film in order to secure all the extras, that’s just outrageous.

As far as Bob Orci goes – I highly doubt that he staged that little incident just to enhance home video sales. Having a very public tiff with parts of the fan base will do nothing to enhance the product. That was the absolute last thing Paramount’s marketing department wanted to see.

111. Curious Cadet - September 12, 2013

@102. Jason Medeiros,
“I was addressing the idea that Star Trek is somehow “Broken”

And on that point, I agree with you!

I will also go so far as to say Star Trek has never been broken, despite what some fans of STID think. If TFF didn’t break it during the second season of TNG, NEM during the second season of Enterprise surely couldn’t.

It was a sensationalist article that if nothing else drove an enormous amount of traffic back to Trekmovie and correspondingly kept the income flowing into Anthony’s bank account to support his rehab wherever he may be.

112. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@ Ensign Redshirt

Oh, I agree that it’s not likely at all that his blow up was part of a plan. I actually think someone with the power to make so is the reason why Mr. Orci isn’t doing anything online anymore, to minimize the damage. He didn’t just stop tweeting, he deleted the account. That says something to me.

I guess what I’m saying is that I, at least, can’t fully put anything past whoever does their PR and marketing work. These are the same people that thought it was okay or even a good idea for Mr. Abrams to do a bunch of interviews where he mostly talked about Star Wars, and that was his promotion for STID (?), along with “I don’t care about the fans…” That was one thing that I did find confusing. Was he talking about the fans of ST before ST09, or was he also including the people that were Star Trek fans because of his work??? Perplexing is all I’m gonna say… I did like the Jon Stewart interview he did, though, in spite of that…

And on the Star Wars being a main focus of every interview, I don’t know. All I can think of is that SW is more popular, and so I guess they were hoping that would help somehow. I don’t see how, though. I don’t see how him working on a film people haven’t seen yet, and won’t see for years, is going to persuade them to want to see a film he just made and wants them to see… I just give up on that one.

113. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

“…correspondingly kept the income flowing into Anthony’s bank account to support his rehab wherever he may be.”

So you know what’s going on with Anthony? Do tell…

114. Curious Cadet - September 12, 2013

@107. rogerachong,
“Red shirt Hendorff (cupcake) is killed by the Klingons on Qo’nos during the big fight / shootout.”

Orci has already indicated that unless we saw Herndorff killed, then he didn’t necessarily die. He’s a popular character. I suspect if he was originally killed, they rethought this in post and considering Orci’s comments, he will be back.

115. Curious Cadet - September 12, 2013

@110 SUA,
“These are the same people that thought it was okay or even a good idea for Mr. Abrams to do a bunch of interviews where he mostly talked about Star Wars”

Not likely. I doubt Paramount had any control over Abrams at that point. He may have contractually been required to go on these press junkets, but his agenda seemed to have little to do with promoting STID and everything to do with promoting himself.

I rather got the impression that Disney and Abrams announcement in Decemeber that he would be directing and producing Star Wars came as a surprise to everyone including Paramount. Based on what we know about various turmoils with CBS and Paramount marketing, and Marvel’s difficult dealings with Paramount, it’s not hard to imagine Abrams got fed up with them. He notoriously walked away from his TV deal at Disney, where presumably he had a strong relationship, for more money at Warner Bros. loyalty does not appear to be his strong suit.

116. Ensign RedShirt - September 12, 2013

110 -Spock/Uhura Admirer

Yeah I saw that he closed up his Twitter account. Once the blow up got picked up by the mainstream media he needed to lay low. I don’t think he went to the STID party the other night either. Also read that he lost a lot of Twitter followers after the “tiff”.

As far as JJ’s interviews go – I agree that he struck a very odd tone in many of his STID interviews. Something you have to understand about him – he’s approaching a Spielberg-like level where he can do or say whatever he wants, so he might not feel obligated to toe the party line when he’s doing interviews. His relationship with Par/CBS is a little shaky and that doesn’t help matters either.

117. rogerachong - September 12, 2013

@112 I am willing to petition the producers to resurrect cupcake as well, if it came to that.

The novel also stated that Uhura had to make a special link so Kirk could call Scotty back on Earth. It was not supposed to look as easy it seemed in the film.

118. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@113 Curious

Well that’s interesting. I haven’t really followed any of his deals with whatever studios he works with. On the loyalty front, I kind of think that’s just Hollywood. Being fair, if his films didn’t do well enough, they’d toss him to the side and move on to someone else… But I do think that if you can develop strong relationships, that those aren’t necessarily easy to come by, and so maintaining them could be worth while. I don’t know…

@ Ensign Redshirt

I didn’t know that he lost a lot of followers, but I’m not surprised…

“As far as JJ’s interviews go – I agree that he struck a very odd tone in many of his STID interviews. Something you have to understand about him – he’s approaching a Spielberg-like level where he can do or say whatever he wants, so he might not feel obligated to toe the party line when he’s doing interviews. “

Well, I absolutely love Star Trek 2009, but it isn’t The Color Purple or Schindler’s List… So, I don’t know about any of this either… I just hope he does a really great job at executive producing the next Star Trek film. I really hope it works out well. I’d like to be able to add another film to the ’09 movie that I have. Best of luck to them.

.
.
.

And count me as another person who’d like to see Cupcake back. :-)

119. Ensign RedShirt - September 12, 2013

@ Spock/Uhura Admirer

I’m not comparing Abrams and Spielberg based on quality or body of work(there is no comparison, after all). What I meant was that JJ’s influence level in Hollywood right now is at Spielbergian levels. The studios will let him do whatever he wants.

120. TUP - September 12, 2013

One of my favourite aspects of the film was Marcus. Peter Weller was great. He has a very natural way about him. The character was very much akin to Paxton that you know the extended universe will relate them at some point.

However if Marcus had uttered the line “dead or alive, you’re coming with me” I would have stood up and applauded. No such luck.

121. OLLEY OLLEY OLLEY - September 12, 2013

@ 88. Spock’s Bangs

“Hardly. Can’t argue with the results, Into Darkness was great”

Your “results” state that Grown Up 2 was better.

122. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@Ensign Redshirt

“What I meant was that JJ’s influence level in Hollywood right now is at Spielbergian levels. The studios will let him do whatever he wants.”

Well then I hope he wants to do more of a character based Star Trek story about the original crew that treats Uhura better this next time around…

123. LogicalLeopard - September 12, 2013

@112 I am willing to petition the producers to resurrect cupcake as well, if it came to that.

***********

From Memory Alpha:

“In the novelization of Star Trek Into Darkness, Hendorff is killed by a Klingon wielding a bat’leth. In the film he is among the security detail guarding John Harrison following his capture. ”

Sooo….if he’s seen on screen after the Klingon fight, then he survived it. He’s not dead.

124. TUP - September 12, 2013

I specifically wondered what happened to the two security red-shirts as they seemed forgotten about once Khan surrendered. I looked for Cupcake as part of the security detail and while there was someone that looked like him, I didnt see him.

125. Alex - September 12, 2013

I dont think these count as “Easter Eggs”. Shouldn’t easter eggs be considered as something hidden?

You know, when you tap play 4 times, then push up, down left, left, and some new screen pops up so that you can view hidden clips from the movie, or some sort of funny clip of the actors?

126. BatlethInTheGroin - September 12, 2013

#125: No, these are Easter eggs as well.

127. rogerachong - September 12, 2013

@120 Check the Blue Ray again. I don’t see cupcake either or the other redshirt who Kirk only addresses as “Lieutenant” in the team bringing Khan into custody on the Enterprise. ( Will appreciate feedback from those who have the Blue Ray, DVD or Download of course). Memory Alpha is wrong on the second part of their statement I believe.

128. Anthony Thompson - September 12, 2013

Don’t forget the shuttle named ‘Takei’!

129. ironhyde - September 12, 2013

wow, how racist is the recasting of Hendorf? I bet Roddenberry very deliberately cast a non-white in that role because of the importance of racial inclusion in the Star Trek ideology. Giving a fat American the name of a slender, South Asia… yeaahh,, as a homage? I really want to LOL at this, but it’s a little too racist / shocking / disrespectful even for a laugh…

130. Disinvited - September 12, 2013

What I find interesting in pieces like this:

http://mancave.cbslocal.com/personality/luke-mckinney/

with suspiciously convenient timing of publication on a CBS [owner of STAR TREK] controlled site, is what is avoided. Many here have pointed out that even the best of Trek has the ripest of moments that can be skewered. And yet, this piece by a CRACKED published author avoids mention of not only the notorious INSURRECTION but TWOK and TVH.

Accuse me of picking up the conspiracy theorist slack around here but I think something is being floated or possibly even guided in response to recent events.

What’s puzzling is what possible influence could CBS’s preference, that that the image of TWOK and TVH be unscathed so that the next sequel could maximize ‘success’ in possibly revisiting aspects of them, have on Paramount or vice versa?

It is also interesting that in Luke Mckinney’s CBS bio it says he’s “for hire.”

It appears triskaidekaphobia may be the least of the next movie production’s worries.

131. Marja - September 12, 2013

94 Curious, I’ve always thought that bit in “Galileo 7″ was the dumbest part of the episode. There is no way, NO way, Spock would have reached LCDR without commanding missions before. Also, why wasn’t McCoy on the Bridge in, say, “The Man Trap,” about having command of the Enterprise for an hour? Cripes, that was so, so, dumb of the writers. I cannot say enough how much it irritates me.

I will say, though, I recall Prime Spock saying in TOS that he didn’t want command several times. And, as you say, “It seems to me what motivates Spock is his quest for knowledge.” But, I put a lot down to the AU — if we think back over 25/26 years of AltSpock’s existence, isn’t it possible that Starfleet regs would encourage officers to advance through the ranks [in today’s military it’s Up or Out], not just in their specialty? Or isn’t it possible that Spock’s personality itself may have changed just that small amount?

99 TrekMadeMe, Yeah, I’ve talked about my disappointment with the Caitians on another thread here. Maybe Paramount was afraid of certain implications some people would draw [bestiality, Furries]? IDK but like you I think they missed a HUGE opportunity to show Kirk’s wide-ranging tastes when it comes to females! If they are Caitians, they’re a subspecies. And what’s with the marks on their necks? Even some tabby-like markings that could have been done with simple makeup would have been an improvement, I mean, whut.

102 Logical, Brilliant analysis of what they did with Kirk in STiD. The scene was doubly tragic to me b/c it represents a loss of Kirk’s huge potential. Personally [I know we’re in the minority here] I thought the scene was great, up till KHAAANNN!

Also the fact that he admits, “”The Enterprise and her crew need someone in that chair who knows what he’s doing. It’s not me. IT’S YOU, SPOCK.” This is a realization of his limitations and took a huge dose of humility, two attributes Kirk will need if he is to be as great as TOS Kirk [TOS Kirk in the best episodes, that is].

123 Logical, I’d sign it. I love Cupcake. I also want to see Gaila again.

129, Umm, ironhyde, I’m not sure we saw the same picture. Original Hendorff looked caucasian to me. And the name Hendorff sounds German, not South Asian. I’d see your point if he had a South Asian name.

132. sean - September 12, 2013

#130

Actually he does mention Insurrection:

“Star Trek IX was so bad they could have simply skipped a number and it would have been less embarrassing for the sequels”

133. Sunfell - September 12, 2013

I liked the cheeky audio easter eggs that were slipped into the aerial chase on Q’NoS: I heard everything from TIE fighters, to pod racers, and even a prop-driven aircraft.

134. ironhyde - September 12, 2013

131 – By South Asian, I mean he appears to be Indian. Or potentially Spanish, I suppose. He’s not American. Caucasion is a shape of the skull. African’s are causasian. I’m talking about skin colour.

135. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

Talking about Easter Eggs…

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/06/29/william-shatner-has-tsa-mishap-that-ends-with-him-being-pantsless/#

136. LogicalLeopard - September 12, 2013

127. rogerachong – September 12, 2013

Thanks for the clarification. I haven’t gotten any of the home versions of the movie yet, so I didn’t know. But like Orci supposedly said, if it didn’t happen on film, he can still be brought back..

129. ironhyde – September 12, 2013

The picture of the actor I see on Memory Alpha for the original character of Hendorff looks white to me. Tanned, yes, but brown hair, Cacausian features.

The actor is a night and day difference from the current Hendorff, but the only thing that indicates they’re the same character is a non-canon/questionable canon comic book, just because nu-Hendorff/Hendorff II is involved in a version of the same episode the original was in. They don’t have to be the same person. Someone probably looked through the list of redshirts, closed their eyes, pointed a finger and said, “Hendorff. That’ll work.” just to stir a little connection with the series.

131. Marja – September 12, 2013

I have to say that I’m oddly fascinated by Hendorff. Not that he seemed to be much more than comic fodder, but I’d like to see his background and history. What makes him so protective of Uhura? Or does he just hate pretty boy Iowans? *L*

137. LogicalLeopard - September 12, 2013

134. ironhyde – September 12, 2013
131 – By South Asian, I mean he appears to be Indian. Or potentially Spanish, I suppose. He’s not American. Caucasion is a shape of the skull. African’s are causasian. I’m talking about skin colour.

**********************
Are you looking at this picture?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hendorff

I’m not sure what you are talking about. Caucasian is not a shape of the skull, to my knowledge, and Africans (at least the sub-saharan variety, as is the case with my chocolate self) are not Cacasians. We fall under the “Negroid” persuasian. High school science taught me that the three main races were Negroid, Mongoloid, and Caucasoid.

But anyway, the actor looks perfectly white/caucasian to me, and his name is Mal Friedman. He just looks like he has a bit of a tan.

138. LogicalLeopard - September 12, 2013

131. Marja – September 12, 2013

Logical, Brilliant analysis of what they did with Kirk in STiD. The scene was doubly tragic to me b/c it represents a loss of Kirk’s huge potential. Personally [I know we’re in the minority here] I thought the scene was great, up till KHAAANNN!

***********************

Thank you! *L* I really thought it was probably one of the worse deaths I’ve seen in Trek. It’s bad when people die, but it’s even worse when people die and they havent fulfilled their potential. And him being scared, and how it really brings you face to face with mortality just puts the cherry on the top. I was in the theatre thinking, “I’m holding it together, but if there are bagpipes, I think I may loose it *LOL* Chris Pine did an excellent job through the whole movie. And the writers did a good job too with the characterization. Have you ever heard anything more gut wrenching than, “I’m sorry?” I don’t know if we’ve ever seen a crew backed so competely into a corner, about to be butchered, and instead of everyone bravely soldering on, the captain actually apologizes to the crew. Brilliant.

As far as KHANNNNNN!!!! I think I’m in a further minority *LOL* I actually liked it! I thought it was a fair break from Spock’s vulcanness. When you look at the emotional strain of his people dying, his mother, his captain, and now his friend…the friend that he didn’t know he had until, oh, about 13 seconds before he died, it’s totally appropriate for him to loose it. Some people have pointed out that Marcus was more responsible than Khan, but who cares? I was caught up in the moment, and so was Spock. It was kind of a glimpse at what early Vulcans might have been like. They probably could care less who did what, if you were connected to a slight, they were going to bomb you to pieces *L* And Spock takes off like a…..like a Spock Bomb. *LOL*

All I ask is that anyone using Spock Bomb as a band name give proper credit during interviews.

139. TUP - September 12, 2013

@131 Crusher held Commander rank, did she not? And Troi went for her Commander rank having obviously never commanded anything.

140. TUP - September 12, 2013

I agree. I liked the “Khhaaannnn”.

141. pock speared - September 12, 2013

@32 star trek is broken.

you have curious definition of “flopped”. i really wish orci would take the time to tell you what he told the other loser.

142. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@#136 Logical Leopard
” I have to say that I’m oddly fascinated by Hendorff. Not that he seemed to be much more than comic fodder, but I’d like to see his background and history. What makes him so protective of Uhura? Or does he just hate pretty boy Iowans? *L*”

I would love to see a little bit of their friendship on screen. I imagine they had some classes together early on at the academy and became good friends…

On the original Hendorff thing, I tend to go off of whatever the actor’s race is if it’s not alluded to somewhere in the show or film. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mal_Friedman

I’m going to guess that he’s either white or at least half white. Frankly, it just looks like he went to the beach a lot to me. I’m happy with the Cupcake we have…

143. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

^Ooh, The first half of my response bunched together with LL’s. This part is mine:

I would love to see a little bit of their friendship on screen. I imagine they had some classes together early on at the academy and became good friends…

144. Disinvited - September 12, 2013

#137. LogicalLeopard – September 12, 2013

It’s been a while so I’m not saying something couldn’t have changed since then, but my Physical Anthropologist instructor of my college Physical Anthropology course taught me that there are no science based race divisions of homo sapiens sapiens as they all interbreed and the offspring produced are fertile.

145. Alex - September 12, 2013

@ #126…These are tie-ins to other parts of the Star Trek universe…NOT Easter Eggs.

Has anyone found any REAL easter eggs?

146. danielcw - September 12, 2013

Where are the 47s?

The last movie had at least 2

This is a Star Trek movie, from the creator and some writers of Alias.
Alias and the modern Trek series were full of 47s.

147. NuFan - September 12, 2013

There should be a contest to find R2D2 in the next one.

148. Marja - September 12, 2013

136 Logical Leopard, “When you look at the emotional strain of his people dying, his mother, his captain, and now his friend…the friend that he didn’t know he had until, oh, about 13 seconds before he died, it’s totally appropriate for him to loose it. ”

Agreed; I’ve been saying this [I believe Spock has PTSD and therefore this makes sense] since day 1 of STiD’s release. I just wish Spock had screamed, “NOOooo!” the way he did in 2009 right before he tried to kill Kirk. Full circle, and no stupid “KHANNN” to excite the tempers of those who think WOK is the best Trek evah. As for Kirk’s death and Spock’s line, “…because you are my friend” I was a total wreck, doing everything I could not to sob. Between that and Pike’s death scene, lordy, I used a few tissues. Pine and Quinto were both sterling throughout.

139 TUP, “@131 Crusher held Commander rank, did she not? And Troi went for her Commander rank having obviously never commanded anything.” In today’s Navy Crusher and Troi would be in a different “career path” from line officers [who serve on the Bridge and command the ship, or stand in a position to do so in time of conflict]. In the Army doctors and nurses have a different career path. USCG doctors definitely have a different arc of career advancement than line officers do.

The problem with Spock [not that I have any problems with Spock, ; ) ] is that he is in a Line Officer position serving as XO and Bridge officer. The TNG “take” on Crusher/Troi is [to me] patently ridiculous. While their training for command did allow for the show’s two female characters to be in “commanding positions” it was a silly idea on its fictional surface. Not a silly idea for role models for girls. It just didn’t fit with the service as established.

The one thing that did make SOME sense [in “All Good Things”] was that Captain Beverly Crusher ended up commanding a Medical vessel [similar, I think to today’s MERCY]. For that she would have had some line officer training, but as the ship would necessarily act in Neutral fashion [not taking part in any war activities, but being strictly a medical vessel, there to help anyone], she would need training in navigation, engineering and the like, enough to direct officers in those specialties, and command training and diplomacy to do the leadership/starship command thing, to deal with crew and other ships.

142 SUA, I think it was more a case of Hendorff having great respect for Uhura [who’s probably a leader in their class, top student, &c.] and his despising “townies,” especially Loser Townies, as Kirk appeared to be.

You’ll note this phenomenon in many towns where there are military installations. Yeah, Hendorff and his pals went into that bar knowing they were Starfleet and thus ‘superior to these “landlubbers” who weren’t bright enough to choose a career in Starfleet, or, worse, not bright enough to get in.’ In the mid-1970s I lived in a small town in NE North Carolina. I was from outside the area and the only folk I felt anything in common with were the Coasties assigned to the local air station, the largest on the East Coast at the time. They were from out of town, from the Northeastern or Western U.S., and were “outsiders” like me, and also generally an intelligent population, as opposed to many of the “locals” I interacted with. There were some bright locals, make no mistake, but most of the folk I ran into didn’t care much about the things my NE US education taught me to be interested in. That said, I had an English teacher in the tiny NE NC town who was one of the brightest teachers ever, and she was as “country” as they came. But she loved literature. And she kicked my ass intellectually!

149. Marja - September 12, 2013

Correction to my last; “The one thing that did make SOME sense [in “All Good Things”] was that Captain Beverly Crusher ended up commanding a Medical vessel [similar, I think to today’s MERCY]. To do that she would have had some line officer training, but the ship would necessarily act in Neutral fashion [not taking part in any war activities, but as a medical vessel, there to help anyone]. Crusher would need training enough to direct officers in “ship-driving” and engineering specialties, and would have command and diplomatic training in order to be a leader and command a starship, and to negotiate “safe passage” with possibly hostile ships.

150. Disinvited - September 12, 2013

#148. Marja – September 12, 2013

Having seen STID [Yep, Aurore finally caught it.], I concur with your Spock’s PTSD diagnosis. Prime Spock said as much in the 2009 flick when he told Kirk (9 months ago?) that altSpock was “compromised.” Also, I’m not sure exactly where and when it was established in Trek but I recall some Vulcan explaining that it’s not that Vulcan’s don’t feel but they feel far more intensely than other beings with emotions can possibly comprehend.

But one thing I doubt the filmmakers ever intended was the peels of laughter that it triggers in others when he waxes “KHHHHAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!”.

151. Phil - September 12, 2013

In other words, Spock has one hellva ulcer….

152. Vultan - September 12, 2013

#150

Exactly. It’s as if the filmmakers had never seen the many spoofs of the Khan scream over the years. The people in my theater certainly had—lots of groans and giggles.

153. Marja - September 12, 2013

Lordy, I’m sure they hearkened back to George Costanza at the end of that Seinfeld episode. Jaysis.

I still wonder how Quinto managed to do it. It proves he has great acting ability that he could bring such authenticity to an otherwise titter-worthy line.

As Jon Lovitz used to say in his Master Thespian bit on SNL …. “ACTing!!!”

154. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@Marja #148

“142 SUA, I think it was more a case of Hendorff having great respect for Uhura [who’s probably a leader in their class, top student, &c.] and his despising “townies,” especially Loser Townies, as Kirk appeared to be. “

I picked up on that too, and I agree, but I also think it’d be nice if they were more than just passing acquaintances.

On your personal experiences–Very interesting. I’ve had some small town family members I’ve visited, and it’s interesting to see the difference in community and attitude. I wouldn’t say it’s over all better or worse, just different. You point out a good stereotype to thwart. Location doesn’t determine intellect or talent necessarily. Small minded people can reside in large upscale and (sub)urban places, while big minded people can live in small towns, and vice versa.

155. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 12, 2013

@150 Disinvited

“Also, I’m not sure exactly where and when it was established in Trek but I recall some Vulcan explaining that it’s not that Vulcan’s don’t feel but they feel far more intensely than other beings with emotions can possibly comprehend.”

I don’t know if it’s said anywhere else, but Sarek essentially tells child Spock that in ST2009.

Sarek:

“Emotions run deep within our race. In many ways, more deeply than in Humans. Logic offers a serenity Humans seldom experience. The control of feelings, so that they do not control you. “

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie11.htm

This is something the 2009 movie did well: Provide beautiful exposition. In STID, the PSTD should have been better addressed, the way that emotion was addressed in ’09. That’s just my opinion, though…

156. Marja - September 13, 2013

155 SUA, Some of the PTSD – viz. Spock’s self-destructive yet heroic tendencies – was explored in the comics, but not addressed as such.

And thanks for putting in that quote from Sarek in 2009 about emotions running deep within the Vulcan race. It seems as if some folks haven’t seen the same movie we have! Nor have they ever caught TOS Spock’s emotional expressions, or … well, ST is different things to different people.

I’m pretty sure deep Vulcan emotions have been explored elsewhere in Trek but it speaks loudly that “the ancient drives [Pon-farr] are … strong” … that could only be relieved by combat to the death or by marriage… and that Surak had to bring Vulcans to Logic because without it the Vulcans would have killed each other in civil wars. They were a passionate war-like race [the Romulans left Vulcan in days of old and kept the warrior tradition].

And, of course, fan fiction explores much of this Vulcan emotion in detail … : )

157. Mama Horta Was Exploited For Perguim - September 13, 2013

I am unsure because of the limitations of my TV, but if I’m not mistaken it looks like one of the future San Fransisco skyscrapers has the paramount logo near the top, in the background as the shuttle carrying Kirk,Spock and Carol Marcus ascends to the Enterprise

158. Aurore - September 13, 2013

@ 150. Disinvited – September 12, 2013

“…Having seen STID [Yep, Aurore finally caught it.]…”
_______

That’s right.

So, what did you think of it?
(If it is not indiscreet .).

Talk to me.

:)

159. Khan 2.0 - September 13, 2013

sounds like they might be giving some sort of explanation of Khans changed appearence: ________________________________________________

GEEK: Will the events of Star Trek Into Darkness somehow color the version of Khan we’ll see, despite the fact that it will be an earlier version?

MIKE JOHNSON: It will, but only after Khan is revived. His life takes a dramatically different course than it did “Space Seed” and Wrath of Khan. To tease it a little bit: the circumstances of his revival affect him both physically and mentally in unexpected ways.
http://www.geekexchange.com/khan-mike-johnson-on-the-upcoming-idw-comi c-book-miniseries-76677.html
——————————————————————————–

160. Curious Cadet - September 13, 2013

@158. Khan 2.0,
” the circumstances of his revival affect him both physically and mentally in unexpected ways.”

Interesting, he makes it sound like something happens when they awaken him on the Botany Bay that necessitated it. We know his unit failed almost 10 years later in Space Seed — perhaps a fire? But here’s the thing, Khan’s super blood can repair irradiated (burnt) tissue, so a fire should be no problem for him either.

Hard to imagine an explanation that will rationally explain not just an appearance change, but a change in race and dialect.

Moreover, if Orci endorses any in-universe explanation for it, he becomes a hypocrite because they then confirm Khan is a dark-skinned, South-Asian terrorist, the whole reason he claims they cast Cumberbatch, whom they’ve now literally white-washed.

Frankly, showing Montalban going in, and Cumberbatch coming out would be laughable anyway.

161. Dave in RI - September 13, 2013

Judging from that picture of the two women, never would I suspect they were
Caitain at all. They look like to regular human females to me. Why bother calling them “Caitain” if you’re not bothering to give them any cat-like attributes?

What a waste

162. Dave in RI - September 13, 2013

“two” regular human females, not “to”

Darn typos!

163. TUP - September 13, 2013

The Khan yell didnt really ellicit laughter in my theatre, though my buddy chuckled. The “I am Khan” reveal got more groans and “WTF’s”.

They best not even try to explain why Khan is different and just decide that for the sake of the universe, he’s the same guy. It was a bad decision from the beginning and there’s nothing they can do about it now other than to reveal he was lying and he’s not Khan, which is exactly what should have happened in the first place.

– The reveal that he was pretending to be Khan to protect Khan would have worked so much better. It would have let them use Khan in the marketing (since the surprise was not that he *was* Khan but that he wasn’t).

– It would have increased his motivation for protecting his “family”

– It would have suitably explained the difference in appearance etc

– It would have made Spock Prime’s appearance mean something if he revealed to Spock that the man calling himself Khan wasn’t Khan at all, leading to Spock using that information to defeat him.

– It would have set up future stories (either movies or books)

– It would have increased the drama of the Augments by showing how skilled any of them could be, not just Khan

– It could have led to an awesome reveal shot at the end when the camera pans over Harrison’s cryo tube, but then scans over to the next one to reveal the face of Ricardo Montalban.

I can’t fathom that this thought never occured to the writers. It would have made the movie so much better.

As for Spock’s command experience, it certainly is silly that he’s never had command before. Perhaps in TOS, we can assume Bones meant an off-ship mission. In the new universe it actually is more easily explained since we know Spock was in the Science field and working at Starfleet Command (though over-seeing a command test without command experience seems rather odd) and became Kirk’s first officer suddenly as a result of their experiences together. In the Prime Universe, he was Pike’s first offier for years so one would presume he commanded the ship and away missions multiple times.

164. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

142. Spock/Uhura Admirer – September 12, 2013

I would love to see a little bit of their friendship on screen. I imagine they had some classes together early on at the academy and became good friends…

***************************************

You know, my theory is, Hendorff was a secret admirer of Uhura’s who was too afraid to approach her. Finally, one day on the Enterprise, after ST09, he works up the courage to just GO to her quarters and profess his undying love for her….then he sees her give Spock a peck on the lips. *LOL* He’s horribly depressed, tells his friends about it, and they tell him….

“Uhm…dude….are you the LAST person to know about that? You didn’t notice how they were always together at the academy?”

“N…no….I thought…he was her teacher, and I….”

“But dude…he’d come out of her dorm room at like, 0500 sometimes…”

“I thought he was helping her STUDY! Introphasic Biochemistry is HARD, I barely made it through myself, and I’d go without sleep for DAYS…”

“Really? What about all those times she’d go down to the vending machines wearing an oversize blue shirt?”

“I…..I thought that was Gailas?”

“Gaila can’t fit that shirt. And, she’s not sciences division.”

“Well…….”

“Weren’t you there when the doors were malfunctioning in Barracks C? The door opened up, and EVERYONE saw them making out together on her bed.”

“W…we…had Field Medicine that semester. I thought he was giving her CPR…”

“CPR?”

“Well, yeah….”

“…….”

“What??”

“Hendorff my friend….your powers of observation and deduction are astounding. Remind me never to go on an away mission with you.”

165. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

162. TUP – September 13, 2013

I’ve done this mannnyyyy times before, but I’ll do it again.

Whats the problem with it being Khan? I mean, I know people may have not wanted it that way, but why are they so opposed to having it be Khan? Because he looks different? Well, first of all, EVERYONE looks different, second of all, it’s not like we haven’t dealt with people looking radically different before (I’m looking at you, Klingons), and thirdly and most importantly: he’s got an EXCUSE to look different!

Khan is a historical figure. He’s instantly recognizable to any 5th grader who walks near him. In our society today, we have a whole internet ruckus about whether Nicholas Cage is a vampire because a picture of someone from the 1800’s looks like him. What kind of ruckus would happen in the future, where there are probably cameras everywhere and social media on steroids?

I’d think if I wanted to recruit Adolf Hitler for black ops today, I’d at least ask him to shave his mustache. But if this is the 23rd century where Orions can be altered to look like Andorians, don’t you think that they’d buy a plastic surgery kit from Walmart and give him a disguise and secret identity? That’s so basic, it doesn’t even really warrant discussion in the movie.

166. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

148. Marja – September 12, 2013
********
I definately think he had some sort of PTSD working. Old Spock said as much, that he knew that Young Spock wouldn’t be emotionally or mentally fit for command, or at the least could be rendered emotionally or mentally fit for command. I thought the Khannnn was a nice in-joke, but to some people, I can understand how it would bring you out of the scene. It brought me out of the tragedy of the scene (which I needed) because I looked at it as a clever in-joke that the average non-Trek fan woudln’t get.

167. TUP - September 13, 2013

@164 except Khan is *not* instantly recognizable in the Star Trek universe. Space Seed clearly established the fact that the crew had no idea who these people were and that “records of that time were fragmented” which led to the debate of whather Khan and his followers were bad guys or not.

I supported the idea of using Khan but not in this way. I liked the idea but not the execution. Because, as Orci even said, they wrote a story that could have been anyone and then decided to make that “anyone” be Khan which immediately removes any specialness that comes with using the Khan character.

They claimed they wanted a different take on Khan but we didnt get a different take at all. We got the same cold, calculated character bent on revenge, willing to do anything to preserve his way of life. Their efforts to make him more sympathetic failed because no matter how “sad” he got or how much he “loved” his followers, he was a cold-blooded murder.

The film actually established that Khan is not “known” when Spock calls Spock Prime and asks him about Khan. Neither Spock nor Kirk seemed to recognize the importance of who Khan was when he revealed his identity and Khan had to explain the back story.

There was nothing about the viewers knowledge of Khan from Space Seed and WOK that came into play in STID. Harrison could have been Khan or just plain old Harrison. He could have been Mudd. He could have been Finnighan. It simply didnt matter.

We werent given any real explanation as to the point of the Augements to begin with and no disucssion about Eugenics to establish the moral implications (that we got with Space Seed). WOK relied on fans enjoying the movie more because they knew the history which was reasonable. But for the new Universe to expect fans to know details of Space Seed and WOK to appreciate STID is not reasonable.

It simply lacked the emotion of WOK and Space Seed. STID didnt even really take the time to give us any emotional basis for Marcus either. The actor owned the role, thankfully, and only the inclusion of Carol Marcus provided any sort of emotional depth. Otherwise, the plot, characters etc were all cardboard.

And I say that as a fan of the movie.

168. Russell Meyers - September 13, 2013

162 – Yes! I totally agree.

169. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

164 except Khan is *not* instantly recognizable in the Star Trek universe. Space Seed clearly established the fact that the crew had no idea who these people were and that “records of that time were fragmented” which led to the debate of whather Khan and his followers were bad guys or not.

***************************

But they had a picture. And if they had a picture, he’d be instantly recognizable to SOMEONE. Especially with facial recognition software. So, out of billions of humans, it only takes one to start a firestorm.

Or, say the person isn’t human, but from another government. Say the Romulans get tipped off that John Harrison may be an agent. They do a facial recognition check to find out more about him, and come up with some guy that lived a couple hundred years ago. The lowly Uhlan doing the check is bored, so he reads a bit more about him….and finds out that Khan may or may not be accounted for. Takes it to his superior, the superior gets curious and suspicious, because a possible genetically altered human is a big deal, and another firestorm starts.

If there’s a sliver of a possibility, it’s worth changing the way he looks. This is not contemporary plastic surgery we’re talking about. Starfleet docs…regular CMO’s do this all the time, in the episodes that deal with the crew going down to an alien planet, etc.
******************************

I supported the idea of using Khan but not in this way. I liked the idea but not the execution. Because, as Orci even said, they wrote a story that could have been anyone and then decided to make that “anyone” be Khan which immediately removes any specialness that comes with using the Khan character.

*************************

But that gets into the realm of overthinknig the situation. It could be anyone, but it IS Khan….so how does it stand up when evaluated on it’s own. Assume Khan is Khan, and evaluate the way they use the character and his performance. This is hard to do, because most of us are attached to Ricardo Montalban’s version. But then again, we’re attached to ALL of the previous versions. And to me, this film didn’t do a horrible job in portraying Khan. He isn’t as charming as the Khan before, but this did give the opportunity for us to realize how ruthless and brilliant he is.

************************************

It simply lacked the emotion of WOK and Space Seed. STID didnt even really take the time to give us any emotional basis for Marcus either. The actor owned the role, thankfully, and only the inclusion of Carol Marcus provided any sort of emotional depth. Otherwise, the plot, characters etc were all cardboard.

********************************

That’s the issue: You CAN”T compare it to Space Seed or TWOK. Those are all seperate works. The only thing you can take from those works is – does this seem in character, given the circumstances? Is it conceivable? I think the answer is yes. About Marcus, I’d like to see more of her too, but we’re not GUARANTEED to have good Marcus content on this movie, any more than we’re guaranteed to have good Worf or Troi or Data content on any given week of TNG. We just say, “Well, I’d like to see more of Marcus in the future” and hope that we do.

As far as emotional depth, I’ve already spoken about the Kirk arc in this movie. If some of the movies most emotional scenes don’t conjure up emotion for people, like the death scene, or better – the “I’m sorry” scene, I don’t know what to say other than I think by paying attention to minor details, and comparing them to other movies/episodes makes us miss the forest for the trees.

170. Aurore - September 13, 2013

“…Moreover, if Orci endorses any in-universe explanation for it, he becomes a hypocrite because they then confirm Khan is a dark-skinned, South-Asian terrorist, the whole reason he claims they cast Cumberbatch, whom they’ve now literally white-washed.”
____________

This is not the way it works, my dear James.

May I call you James?

You see, James, I believe the fans will be deemed responsible for this in-universe explanation if it is endorsed by Mr. Orci. We will all be his accomplices, if you will.

As you remember, “we” were listened to:

( From a list of “highlights” in an interview posted on this very site ) :

-Looking to continue with “a mix” of new story ideas, and using elements from classic Star Trek that will “harmonize with canon”, but “still open to something fully original and we will not do a remake”.
-Orci on interacting with fans at TrekMovie.com “The opinions become party of my internal focus group”
-Comments from fans have worked their way into meetings with “The Supreme Court”
-Orci uses his interactions to gauge responses and get a sense of where the fans are at, noting “Knowing where fans are is as important to us as pleasing the new audience”

http://trekmovie.com/2010/01/24/exclusive-roberto-orci-gives-star-trek-sequel-update-more-video/

In all seriousness Curious Cadet, and since many loved the sequel, should some people voice any concerns over the type of explanation you were mentioning, in my opinion, they will/would be referred to as “haters”…I meant to say “purists”.

Still, regarding the third installment, there’s much to look forward to, in the months to come…

“You can see we’re online, checking very much as fans what the Star Trek sites are saying, so we’re open to anything for the third movie – we just want to make sure we’ve learned the lessons from the first two. ”

http://trekmovie.com/2013/03/31/orci-kurtzman-talk-into-darkness-next-star-trek-in-official-mag-4-new-images/

…If Khan reappears in the next Star Trek , it will probably be because the… “vast majority”… of fans “demanded” it …as they did before, I suppose (which is probably one the reasons why Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing film in the franchise today. I must remember this, as time goes by.)…

:)

171. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

159. Curious Cadet – September 13, 2013

Hard to imagine an explanation that will rationally explain not just an appearance change, but a change in race and dialect.

***************************

I’ve said numerous times before, being a spy would account for the change in race and dialect, but here’s another thing I’ve never thought of: Perhaps the change was not so much to hide Khan but for a specific purpose we don’t know about. Perhaps he had to duplicate a specific person, or a specific “type” of person, and kept the identity because it was the first one he was established under for Starfleet.

But here’s the REAL deal: They’re not going to probably GIVE us an explaination, and they really shouldn’t have to. Plenty of more obvious things have gone unexplained in the past, like the Klingon forehead thing that took, what, over 20 years to explain? And fans have been allowed to speculate on them until they were explained, or if they were never explained. You paint yourself into an unecessary corner when you explain too much, because for starters, Trek fans are probably not going to like it WHATEVER way you do it. Sometimes there can be MAJOR backlash, like with SW and Midichlorions. Everyone liked the vague explanation of the Force and was fine with it until George Lucas torpedoed it with an explanation.
****************************************

Moreover, if Orci endorses any in-universe explanation for it, he becomes a hypocrite because they then confirm Khan is a dark-skinned, South-Asian terrorist, the whole reason he claims they cast Cumberbatch, whom they’ve now literally white-washed.

****************************************

I’d like to point out again that Ricardo Montalban was white too. He was born in Mexico, but he was born to two Spanish parents. Spaniards are Caucasian, not the Caucasian/Native American blended peoples we describe as “Hispanic” ethnically.

172. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

A word of caution: Although it’s nice to hear what writers, producers, etc have to say about characters/plots/etc off screen, only what happens onscreen is important. Don’t let that detract from your enjoyment of the movie.

Like the “Caitians” up there. That was kind of a bummer for me, because I had accidentally read a spoiler that there were going to be Caitians in the movie. Then I go, and see two human ladies with tails. It makes me think, “Wow….why couldn’t they have shelled out some money and made them REAL Caitians?”

And the answer is probably because they wanted real Caitians, but some producer said, “Do we really want to show Kirk engaging in what looks like bestiality to some, or weird “furry” nonsense to others? Give em tails, but make them look like regular women.”

But the WHOLE point is, if I look at them as not being Caitians, but women with tails, it changes the whole way I look at things. They weren’t CALLED Caitians on screen, so it’s malleable.

173. Aurore - September 13, 2013

“….I’d like to point out again that Ricardo Montalban was white too. He was born in Mexico, but he was born to two Spanish parents. Spaniards are Caucasian, not the Caucasian/Native American blended peoples we describe as “Hispanic” ethnically.”
______

I see your point.
You’ve said so numerous times before. In a way.

:)

And, you also said this :

“Ahhh…gotcha. So, what I gather that you’re both essentially saying is that they should have made the original situation ‘right,’ or attempted to make it right, by casting an Indian in the role, or at least interviewing someone from that region. I get it. Very valid point, because from what I understand, there’s no evidence that anyone other than Hispanics were approached about the part etc etc…” ( for more ; post 1576):

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/28/into-darkness-second-week-polls/#comments

174. TUP - September 13, 2013

Where to begin.

STID was not the highest grossing movie because Khan was in it. Period.

@168 – you can’t make assumptions based on what you *think*, only what we know. We know that in the TOS time frame there clearly was not any way to establish the “face’s” identity. STID takes place years before Space Seed. Someone recognizing Khan was not possible. Period.

Moreover, it wouldnt even be a concern of Marcus. How many CIA agents are undercover right now? People obviously know them. But they run in the shadows. Khan wasn’t running around making himself known. And when there was a “picture” of him, it did not identify him as Khan. So no, there clearly was no record of this man being Khan. Period.

You cant evaluate the use of Khan on its own because it’s not an original character. He *must* be evaluated based on what we know. And frankly, I believe that was the intent of the writers. They claimed they wanted to do a different take on Khan, a Khan “unfrozen” early. But in my mind, aside from the shock value of the reveal, there was no point to him being Khan. Nothing. Space Seed triggered the ligitimate debate of eugenics, of perspective. WOK was straight revenge, the superior being versus the aging veteran. We didnt get anything close to the depth of either of those issues here. And as I said, the one issue was the terrorist doing bad things for good reasons…except he was a cold blooded murder. just because Marcus was also a cold blooded murder doesnt redeem Khan in any way.

I do agree the emotional scenes were emotional. But too many others lacked emotional depth. Even Pike’s death lacked depth. He really was murdered like a chump. I wanted to see him fighting back, saving lives, sacrificing himself like he did in the Prime universe. I understand meaningless deaths can be emotional but Pike’s shouldn’t have been. His should have been the example to Kirk – accepting a “no win situation” and doing everything you can to save whomever you can. Instead, he was shot down too quickly. There was no honour or bravery in his death.

175. TUP - September 13, 2013

@171 – you’re reaching. We could just as easily explain away Khan’s look as little green men from mars kidnapped him and burned his face off. There are always reasons to explain plot holes. The point is knowing the differences between reasonable plot holes that have obvious reasonable explanations that, on TV might be more fully explained through exposition and plot holes that just dont make logical sense.

Khan looks different because they went with BC instead of BDT. The problem is, the rest of the cast was specifically casted due to their resemblence (in various degrees) to the original cast. They should have adjusted the story to accomadate BC.

You cant just reach for an explanation because it’s “possible”, no matter how remotely. The “spy” explanation doesnt hold water since NO ONE would recognize Khan as clearly established in Space Seed.

176. Xplodin_Nacelle - September 13, 2013

Don’t forget Spock’s orange spacesuit in the volcano – a homage to his TMP spacewalk suit.

177. Aurore - September 13, 2013

“STID was not the highest grossing movie because Khan was in it. Period.”
______

Hence what I said :

“(which is probably one of the reasons why Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing film in the franchise today. I must remember this, as time goes by.)…”

Although this comment of mine was partly made in jest, time and time again, I’ve read on this site and elsewhere, that including Khan in the movie would be good for business, so to speak.(Of course, that opinion was not shared by everyone.).

I personally do not know why the movie is the highest grossing film in the franchise…yet.

I may find out when I see it.

178. TUP - September 13, 2013

There are reasons. But Orci’s sense that 2009 and STID are the highest grossing because they are the best isn’t true. it *could* be true but “best” is subjective.

They are the highest grossing because the Studio got behind the idea of massive-budget, summer action flicks and hired a very hot producer to over-see them. If they had felt that way about TNG, even in 2009, that TNG movie would have been the highest grossing, merely because of the budget and support.

STID is a fan-pandering, epic action film and I enjoyed it. I like the fan-pandering but I get a sense these writers know Trek but dont really get Trek and too often the fan-pandering moments made it seem like parody rather than homage.

179. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

174. TUP – September 13, 2013

@168 – you can’t make assumptions based on what you *think*, only what we know. We know that in the TOS time frame there clearly was not any way to establish the “face’s” identity. STID takes place years before Space Seed. Someone recognizing Khan was not possible. Period.

***********************************

Well, I submit that I CAN make assumptions based on what I think. That’s kind of what we’re encouraged to do with movies/television. Everything isn’t filled in for us, so there are things that we can assume/guess/come to a personally satisfactory conclusion on. You can’t say that there wasn’t a way to establish the face’s identity in TOS, because we can do that NOW in 2013 *L* Why is it a stretch to beleive that they can do it in TOS era? I probably can’t think of a TOS example at the moment, but they had hand scans and retinal scans, and voiceprint analysis in TOS, right? I seem to remember seeing those things in the TOS movies. Facial recognition software is not out of the question.

You cant rule out that Khan wouldn’t be recognized. They had a picture of Khan in Space Seed. It doesn’t matter if most of the crew (that we know of) didn’t recognize him, or even McGivers didn’t recognize him (I don’t think she did right off), but you’re telling me that there’s not a 5th grader studying the Eugenics wars or a history buff that’s not going to know Khan when he sees him? But like I said later, who knows why his appearance has changed? Could have been he needed a specific identity for a specific mission that called for a British man, and never changed it. This is such a small point it doesn’t warrant much speculation. If Sulu is suddenly a large black man, ask questions. But if Khan is working as a spy and looks different, you don’t have to think long about why he looks that way.

***********

Moreover, it wouldnt even be a concern of Marcus. How many CIA agents are undercover right now? People obviously know them. But they run in the shadows. Khan wasn’t running around making himself known. And when there was a “picture” of him, it did not identify him as Khan. So no, there clearly was no record of this man being Khan. Period.

You cant evaluate the use of Khan on its own because it’s not an original character. He *must* be evaluated based on what we know. And frankly, I believe that was the intent of the writers. They claimed they wanted to do a different take on Khan, a Khan “unfrozen” early. But in my mind, aside from the shock value of the reveal, there was no point to him being Khan. Nothing. Space Seed triggered the ligitimate debate of eugenics, of perspective. WOK was straight revenge, the superior being versus the aging veteran. We didnt get anything close to the depth of either of those issues here. And as I said, the one issue was the terrorist doing bad things for good reasons…except he was a cold blooded murder. just because Marcus was also a cold blooded murder doesnt redeem Khan in any way.

I do agree the emotional scenes were emotional. But too many others lacked emotional depth. Even Pike’s death lacked depth. He really was murdered like a chump. I wanted to see him fighting back, saving lives, sacrificing himself like he did in the Prime universe. I understand meaningless deaths can be emotional but Pike’s shouldn’t have been. His should have been the example to Kirk – accepting a “no win situation” and doing everything you can to save whomever you can. Instead, he was shot down too quickly. There was no honour or bravery in his death.

**********************

Moreover, it wouldnt even be a concern of Marcus. How many CIA agents are undercover right now? People obviously know them. But they run in the shadows. Khan wasn’t running around making himself known. And when there was a “picture” of him, it did not identify him as Khan. So no, there clearly was no record of this man being Khan. Period.

*****************

There’s a scene in Space Seed where they find a computer file picture of Khan. It didn’t identify him as being Khan?

And regarding CIA agents, plastic surgery isn’t as easy today as it is in the future. Bashir is a surgeon, but he fixed up Sisko, O’Brien, and Odo to look like Klingons pretty easily, and could reverse it just as easily. This has happened in other series as well.

You cant evaluate the use of Khan on its own because it’s not an original character. He *must* be evaluated based on what we know. And frankly, I believe that was the intent of the writers. They claimed they wanted to do a different take on Khan, a Khan “unfrozen” early. But in my mind, aside from the shock value of the reveal, there was no point to him being Khan. Nothing. Space Seed triggered the ligitimate debate of eugenics, of perspective. WOK was straight revenge, the superior being versus the aging veteran. We didnt get anything close to the depth of either of those issues here. And as I said, the one issue was the terrorist doing bad things for good reasons…except he was a cold blooded murder. just because Marcus was also a cold blooded murder doesnt redeem Khan in any way.

*****************

nu-Khan can be compared to Khan-prime only as far as how he character behaves.But you cant compare STID to Space Seed and TWOK. Like you said, this is an alternate take. This is not Space Seed, and certainly not TWOK, it predates both of them with very different circumstances. SS talked about eugenics. This is NOT the point of STID, it was more about the ends that a nation will go to protect itself, even in “ressurecting” an intelligent, but brutal weapon. Evaluate the movie on what it’s trying to say.

But interestingly enough, Khan has never been a terrorist. He’s either been a leader as in SS and TWOK, or an instrument/weapon of the government. In this case, I suppose he’s like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now, a “soldier” that went rogue because of his personal concerns. In this case, he’s motivated by his “family.” Cold blooded murderer? Nope, he’s just paying SF back for what they did to him. Instead of the nice, pleasant reception he got in SS (Hey Khan! Welcome to the Enterprise, feel free to plop on a comfortable shirt and kick back with a few technical manuals), in STID he was woken up and threatened *LOL* (Good morning Mr. Khan. We know who you are, we know what you did, and you’re working for us now. Or else, we’ll kill everyone you have left from your world. So…..John Harrison, that sound like a good name?)
**************************

I do agree the emotional scenes were emotional. But too many others lacked emotional depth. Even Pike’s death lacked depth. He really was murdered like a chump.

********************

Totally agree with you there *L* Crawling away from weapons fire and being shot in the butt is not really dignified *LOL* For what its worth, I liked the scene when I first saw it….I cheered for him to make it across the floor, but knew he was going to end up toast.

180. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

178. TUP – September 13, 2013
There are reasons. But Orci’s sense that 2009 and STID are the highest grossing because they are the best isn’t true. it *could* be true but “best” is subjective.

They are the highest grossing because the Studio got behind the idea of massive-budget, summer action flicks and hired a very hot producer to over-see them. If they had felt that way about TNG, even in 2009, that TNG movie would have been the highest grossing, merely because of the budget and support.

STID is a fan-pandering, epic action film and I enjoyed it. I like the fan-pandering but I get a sense these writers know Trek but dont really get Trek and too often the fan-pandering moments made it seem like parody rather than homage.

***********

I pretty much agree with all of that. Maybe not the TNG part though – you need an overhaul for people to jump on to it. If a person didn’t see Insurrection or Nemesis because they didn’t like Star Trek, no amount of budget, explosions, or hot producers was going to change their mind. Actually, I still get the same response from people I know about the first movie. You ask them if they saw it, and they say, “Oh no, I don’t like Star Trek.”

But one other reason the second movie was successful is because the first movie was so GOOD. Word of mouth got going, people who wouldn’t normally have seen it if it was TNG or DS9 or whatever, saw it and liked it. It’s a fresh jumping on point, where you don’t have to know or appreciate much about ST to grasp it. You can go in with the normal stereotypes people think about Star Trek (transporters, warp speed, Spock has no emotions, Kirk drinks green booze and sleeps with women, or drinks booze and sleeps with green women,e tc) and have enough knowledge to appreciate the film.

181. TUP - September 13, 2013

I agree.

I think the reason STID didnt hit TDK like upper momentum was because the movie wasn’t as good and BC’s performance was as iconic as they had hoped. He was good, no doubt, but like I said, I didnt feel any emotion behind it.

RM could chew scenery with the best of them but you freakin felt it.

I actually believe Shanter’s performances in WOK and Search for Spock far exeeded anything in STID also. The movie was a summer action film. It had enough fan-pandering to make me a little giddy. But now, months later, watching the Blu-Ray, the weaknesses are more obvious and the fact it came up short of greatness annoys me.

182. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

181. TUP – September 13, 2013
I agree.

I think the reason STID didnt hit TDK like upper momentum was because the movie wasn’t as good and BC’s performance was as iconic as they had hoped. He was good, no doubt, but like I said, I didnt feel any emotion behind it.
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Yeah, I suppose I can agree with you a little there…you’re dealing with a different sort of subject matter than the first movie, which is a bit more subtle and has the ability to off-put some people. The whole military aggression, Borne-type bad guy is something that you either like or you dont. In the first movie, I think it showcased the crew more than the villian, even though this movie had a solid story about Kirk’s development. BC’s performance could never really be iconic, because you can’t replace an icon with an icon….well….maybe…..if you considered Caesar Romero or Jack Nicholson’s Joker to be iconic, Heath Ledger sure burned them out of people’s memories *LOL* But I think that there wasn’t enough story dedicated to Khan to make him interesting or iconic. He wasn’t even the only bad guy.
*************************

RM could chew scenery with the best of them but you freakin felt it.
*********************

True. But the reason why BC couldn’t do the same thing is because of the way Khan was portrayed in Space Seed and TWOK, especially the former. All the focus was on him, and he could slink around the soundstage and make a lasting impression. Most of this movie focuses on other things. Khan only talks a few times in this movie, on the planet, in the brig, and on the other ship, but there’s more action going on in the way of the character.

**************
I actually believe Shanter’s performances in WOK and Search for Spock far exeeded anything in STID also. The movie was a summer action film. It had enough fan-pandering to make me a little giddy. But now, months later, watching the Blu-Ray, the weaknesses are more obvious and the fact it came up short of greatness annoys me.

********************

Saw it once alone in the theatre, then at the drive in with my wife (Yes, we’re still married even though I told her I was going without her the first time *L*) and havent’ seen it since. The second time I saw it I liked it more. Maybe I’ll rent it over the weekend and see how I like it.

As far as Shatners performances….I gotta say, best actor award for this movie goes to Pine, and he did a better job than Shatner. I love his portrayal of the little weird things, which he may have added himself. Like his reaction to Spock before they go into the Daystrom room. And of course, the classic reaction to Scotty when he hung up on him *LOL* And the casualness and realness of his acting with the Uhura turbolift scene. And of course the rest of the emotional stuff, “I”m sorry” and “I’m scared” in the death scene. Dude, he even killed it as a corpse! *LOL*

But I admit, this is in the eye of the beholder. And part of it is because i’m absolutely smitten with the development of AlternaKirk….it’s just such a GOOD story….it’s almost like what should have happened with a character like Tasha Yar, who is the only Trek character who rose from humble beginnings that I can think of at the moment. But seeing Kirk die (even if we know everyone always comes back) was like seeing Yar get eaten by the Exxon spill…..only more emotional because it was done wayyyyyy better.

So maybe I’m overrating Pine’s performance because I like nu-Kirk so much. But Pine did a good job.

And to clarify, I don’t have a man-crush. I have a character-crush *LOL* Is that possible? I suppose so.

183. TUP - September 13, 2013

I agree about Khan in this film which is maybe why I am disappointed. He could be anyone whereas the only two prior appearances of the character were very, very memorable…iconic. He didnt have enough to do.

To be honest, I could have handled no Khan and just Marcus as the bad guy because I liked Weller’s performance the best in this movie. He has a very natural way about him. No Khan would have let them showcase Weller more, flesh out his character, give us more about him and his family and thus, more about Carol.

I like Chris Pine very much. I am more impressed with the little Shatner-esque touches he adds (him walking onto the bridge at the end of 2009 for example). But Shatner was unbelievable in WOK and SFS. WOk was really an example of everything about Kirk, good and bad. And the scene following David’s death in SFS was an unbelievable performance by Shatner.

I get that this new Kirk is developing. But I’ve had enough of doubting Kirk and reckless Kirk (swinging back and forth between the two extremes). I want to see the confident Kirk, the master tactician etc. Maybe not master, but getting there.

And I thought Bones was very under-served in this movie. His 2009 performance was a wonderful portrayal of the character and homage to the original. His STID performance was parody. I think the writers are too close to the material to judge it objectively. For example, the “metaphore” scene was eye-rolling bad.

I think they need to tone down Kirk’s humour also. What was funny in TOS was Kirk’s somewhat smarmy bemusement at things (such as Spock/McCoy), but this Kirk is a bit too goofy for my taste.

184. LogicalLeopard - September 13, 2013

To be honest, I could have handled no Khan and just Marcus as the bad guy because I liked Weller’s performance the best in this movie. He has a very natural way about him. No Khan would have let them showcase Weller more, flesh out his character, give us more about him and his family and thus, more about Carol.

***************

Yeah, I agree. I’m obviously not opposed to Khan, given my defense of him, but I can certainly see that they could have made a better movie without him….I could take Weller as the standalone villian, with maybe Harrison being a rogue agent that they are chasing around for most of the movie. Maybe an augment created by Starfleet, that’d be interesting. A nice ethical debate on whether you’re allowed to “fight fire with napalm.” Weller did have an easy way about him that was very entertaining.

Of course though, this wouldn’t have alleviated people’s complaints. They would have talked about how it was disgracing Roddenberry with the good guys being corrupt bad guys, etc. *LOL* It’s funny, but having Khan as the villian actually probably SAVED them some fallout, hen you think about it.

As to Shatner, I don’t mean to undercut his performance…..trying to sit and missing the chair is classic, and really hit the spot with how emotional he was. I think he actually ad libbed that, I believe….I can’t recall.

As to Nu-Kirk, I think his arc will be more complete in the next movie. He’s died himself, almost gotten his whole crew killed, etc. There’s really no where to go but up in the next one *LOL* But he’s hopefully gained much needed perspective from the events of this movie, and will probably approach things from the more classic Kirk esque tactician approach.

I could have used more Bones in this one, but then again, I could have used more everybody. The problem with movies over episodes is that the characters never get all the attention we’d like them to.

As for Kirk’s humor….well, yeah, I can see how people could want it toned down…and I think it will be. He’s maturing. But i think the humor is spot on for Kirk’s development. Lots of smart people use sarcasm as a weapon, especially young people. Kirk struck me as sort of the kid who sits back and makes fun of everything who is suddenly put in a position of responsbility. He wants to do the best he can, but he occasionally lapses into the juvenile antics he’s used to.

185. NCC-73515 - September 13, 2013

The switch to open the emergency door to the radiated corridor looks and works like the deflector dish maglock override in First Contact!

186. TUP - September 13, 2013

Yeah I see your point about Kirk’s humour. I think its more the reaction. he sort of has this exaggerated funny reaction which isnt really in keeping with Kirk. He was always dignified, even when being funny or playful.

I think they do a good job of giving all the principles something to do but Bones loses out to the Spock/Uhura romance which is really flat in my mind. They have no chemistry and it bordered on unprofessional too often. And it likely took away from Kirk romance which is more important to his character.

I actually think a more interesting story that could have focused on Marcus would be the xenophobia. I know Enterprise explored this (with Peter Weller no less) but it would work well for a people about to launch the first long-term deep space mission. it would tie Marcus to Paxton (for us diehards), dove-tail nicely into the Kilingon issue and foreshadow that there is a segment of high ranking Starfleet personel that want to destroy other races/enemies (Trek VI)

187. Curious Cadet - September 13, 2013

@171. LogicalLeopard,
“I’ve said numerous times before, being a spy would account for the change in race and dialect”

That goes out the window the minute he hisses out that his name is Khan. If at that moment he also changed from his British accent, to anything else, then maybe I could buy that explanation. But he doesn’t. And we know why — Orci didn’t want to cast a dark-skinned guy, and the bad guy always sounds more evil with a British accent. But in-universe, it makes no sense. Whether Khan altered his appearance for an assignment or not, he’s not the kind of guy who ruled most of Asia under the proud name of Khan Noonien Singh (which for Khan was less than a year earlier) and then feels happy about changing his identity as a result of being forced into indentured servitude and doing the bidding of a physical and intellectual inferior. Yet right to the bitter end, Khan continues to masquerade as John Harrison in appearance and speech. That’s so crazy he makes Montalban look sort of sane. I mean he’s not Madonna.

So you’re tasked with providing and in-universe explaination for which there cannot be one because the reason Khan is a white British dude is because he is, and no effort was made to distinguish John Harrison from Khan to suggest any other explanation than Khan has always looked and spoken this way — a 100 percent reboot plain and simple; none of this, ‘QM MWI, everything was the same before Nero showed up nonsense’.

And whether Montalban was a white Hispanic, has no bearing on Orci’s intent. Orci did not want kids to see the movie and see a brown terrorist (which acknowledges he understands Khan should have dark skin). If Orci condones IDW’s switch from a dark-skinned Montalban last seen in Space Seed to a white-skinned Cumberbatch in STID in a comic, which is most certainly going to be seen by kids; then he is a hypocrite, and it casts serious doubt on his explanation for Cumberbatch being cast, because despite his white veneer, Khan was established as a brown terrorist. If Ossama Bin Laden had undergone some kind of skin lightening, shaved his beard, plastic surgery to change his appearance, spoke with an English accent, and otherwise changed his identity; I doubt people would suddenly see him as a white man (and he had every reason to, just like Khan, so why didn’t he?). If anything it would confirm the stereotype — oh, he really wasn’t one of us! He was a brown-skinned terrorist, just like all the others!

188. TUP - September 13, 2013

Where has it ever been stated that Orci didn’t want a dark skinned terrorist? I thought the role was Del Toros and he backed out?

189. Curious Cadet - September 13, 2013

@188 TUP,
Seriously? Way too much water under the bridge. Have you been living under a rock? I’m gonna have to let you google that one for yourself … Here’s a hint: he wrote it right here on trekmovie the week after it was released in the US, and it was the hot topic of discussion for a month.

190. Ensign RedShirt - September 13, 2013

@Curious Cadet

If you want to hang someone for the change in Khan’s ethnicity, go after Abrams, not Bob. It’s the director and producer who approve of the casting, not the screenwriter.

I completely agree with you that the change in ethnicity is total BS.

191. Curious Cadet - September 13, 2013

@190 Ensign Redshirt,
No doubt Abrams shares some blame, but
A) Orci already took the blame for rejecting a non-white actor being cast as Khan, and
B) Roberto Orci is a producer of Star Trek

192. ironhyde - September 14, 2013

137 Logical Leopard

Same picture.

It really is about the skull shape. Look into it. I’ll give you this as a place to begin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blumenbach_beautiful_Georgian_skull.png

Also,
“He looks like he has a bit of a tan” ?
— um, yeah. I suspect his is not of the same racial inclination as their homage. That’s my point. I don’t think it’s a “tan”. I think this could have been our hint at how Khan would turn out under this regime..

193. ironhyde - September 14, 2013

137,
Also – In Physical Anthropology:

Drawing from Petrus Camper’s theory of facial angle, Blumenbach and Cuvier classified races, through th
eir skull collections based on their cranial features and anthropometric measurements. Caucasian traits were recognised as: thin nasal aperture (“nose narrow”), a small mouth, facial angle of 100°–90°, and orthognathism, exemplified by what Blumenbach saw in most ancient Greek crania and statues.[20][21] Later anthropologists of the 19th and early 20th century such as Pritchard, Pickering, Broca, Topinard, Morton, Peschel, Seligman, Bean, Ripley, Haddon and Dixon came to recognise other Caucasian morphological features, such as prominent supraorbital ridges and a sharp nasal sill.[22] Some anthropologists in the latter half of the 20th century, used the term “Caucasoid” in their literature, such as Boyd, Gates, Coon, Cole, Brues and Krantz replacing the earlier term “Caucasian” as it had fallen out of usage.[23]

The physical traits of Caucasoid crania are still recognised as distinct (in contrast to Mongoloid and Negroid races) within modern forensic anthropology. A Caucasoid skull is identified, with an accuracy of up to 95%, by the following features:[24][25][26][27][28]

Little or no prognathism exhibited—an orthognathic profile, with minimal protrusion of the lower face.
Retreating zygomatic bones (cheekbones), making the face look more “pointed”.
Narrow nasal aperture, with a tear-shaped nasal cavity.

Other physical characteristics of Caucasoids include hair texture that varies from straight to curly,[3] with wavy (cymotrichous) hair most typical on average according to Coon (1962), in contrast to the Negroid and Mongoloid races. Individual hairs are also rarely as sparsely distributed and coarse as found in Mongoloids.[3]

Skin color amongst Caucasoids ranges greatly from pale, reddish-white, olive, through to dark brown tones.[3]

Fyi.

194. Curious Cadet - September 14, 2013

For anyone supporting the Abrams/Paramount cash grab, here’s a good article explaining just what extras you’re missing depending in which retailer exclusive version you chose to buy, or not to buy.

http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/09/into-darkness-exclusives-part-i-video-vam/

195. Curious Cadet - September 14, 2013

@192 ironhyde,

I understand the points you make, but I don’t really see it. Take a look at this picture. All three men, including McCoy appear to have the same “tan”, and the skull shapes and facial features between the two red shirts are relatively the same.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x05hd/theapplehd0024.jpg

It was filmed in July in LA, so most of the actors likely had real tans that were enhanced by darker makeup to even out their color, and sunburns.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x05hd/theapplehd0076.jpg

While I do agree that the actor may have a mixed heritage, there’s not enough evidence to suggest he’s been whitewashed. And as I compare him to his STID counterpart, if you were to fatten up the TOS actor, I can see a certain similarity.**

That said, I have been a critical voice of Abrams poorly diversified Federation in both films. The number of actual principal non-white characters is minimal, much less those principals with major roles. In fact, it’s hard to believe STID is as white as it is considering Paramount’s focus on the international market. It’s as if Abrams went out of his way to defy Paramount’s wishes.

**as for similarities between actors, no matter how much Orci likes to state it, likely most anyone born after Kirk is not the same person as they were in the Prime universe (even Kirk can’t technically be the same because he was born prematurely resulting in incomplete development that Prime Kirk got). Conception times would be altered, birth dates would change, different sperm and eggs would combine, different external influences would affect the formation of the embryo, so while her parents still raised a girl named Nyota Uhura, she can’t be the same Uhura from the Prime universe. And in cases of characters like Hendorff, had a different parent altogether.

196. TUP - September 14, 2013

I must have missed that. If orci did in fact deliberately reject a non-white actor as Khan because of some politically correct notion than it would mean he is absolutely out of touch with reality and of sufficient power to do a dangerous amount of damage.

Besides which, I’m not sure anyone would equate a Latino actor with Middle East terrorism.

If orci was in any theatre for the reveal and heard the groans I hope he’s come to realise his mistake. It was significant arrogance to use Khan in the way they did.

197. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

@Marja #156

” 155 SUA, Some of the PTSD – viz. Spock’s self-destructive yet heroic tendencies – was explored in the comics, but not addressed as such.

Yes, I remember being told that by some of the people here and at the bbs that read the comics. I think that’s a big problem with how they wrote STID. Comics are for comic book fans. Big-budget movies are supposed to be for general audiences. Assuming that general audiences ALL read your umpteen comic books in the 4 year period between films is just, I’m sorry to say it, silly. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I really do hope that they can address Spock’s issues head-on in the next film, and they need to get S/U right this time around and really take some time with them. They need it after how they were written/directed/produced in STID.

” And thanks for putting in that quote from Sarek in 2009 about emotions running deep within the Vulcan race. It seems as if some folks haven’t seen the same movie we have! Nor have they ever caught TOS Spock’s emotional expressions, or … well, ST is different things to different people.

I’m pretty sure deep Vulcan emotions have been explored elsewhere in Trek but it speaks loudly that “the ancient drives [Pon-farr] are … strong” … that could only be relieved by combat to the death or by marriage… and that Surak had to bring Vulcans to Logic because without it the Vulcans would have killed each other in civil wars. They were a passionate war-like race [the Romulans left Vulcan in days of old and kept the warrior tradition].”

It’s one of my favorite quotes in the movie. They really did a good job with the dialog and the overall story making sense in ST09, and I hope they can return to that. Yes, some people did seem to not pay attention to the fact that Vulcans do feel and they seemed to be trying to even re-write TOS to suit their preferences. I’m not sure why anyone would think this is necessary, I guess it’s a way to try to be “right,” but all I can say it that a preference is a preference and nothing more…

I do hope the follow up on the destruction of Vulcan since that was such a big part of the ’09 film. It only makes sense to see how the Vulcans are getting on after that. I’d imagine their need for logic after such an emotionally distressing time must be at an all-time high. The only thing I wonder is if it’s possible to be able to go through with Kolinar while one is still dealing with shock and grief. Probably not… The few healers that are left must have a lot on their hands, and a need for selecting and training new healers must be great…

“And, of course, fan fiction explores much of this Vulcan emotion in detail … : )”

Yes. I have found that to be true also. I’ve come across some fiction dealing with Vulcans, Spock, and S/U that is very nice… :-)

————————–

@#164 LL

“You know, my theory is, Hendorff was a secret admirer of Uhura’s who was too afraid to approach her. Finally, one day on the Enterprise, after ST09, he works up the courage to just GO to her quarters and profess his undying love for her….then he sees her give Spock a peck on the lips. *LOL* He’s horribly depressed, tells his friends about it, and they tell him….”

I could imagine that Cupcake probably had some kind of secret crush on her as well, but I think he just kept it to himself. I don’t think Uhura would have ever had Spock come to her dorm quarters. They would have been the most discrete couple possible. And I think he would have waited until she wasn’t taking any of his classes anymore to pursue something with her, something that they both fell into and then fell in love…

““Uhm…dude….are you the LAST person to know about that? You didn’t notice how they were always together at the academy?”…”

Hee hee. Funny scenario, but I’m sticking to the “they were very discrete” theory. Thanks for the ficlet. :-)

198. ML31 - September 14, 2013

I just listened over and over for a couple of minutes around the 1:54:20 mark for the notes from Fried’s Amok Time music and just couldn’t hear it. i heard an amped up version of Spock’s theme. That is all. I’m usually pretty good at hearing these things too.

For the record, while the core problem I had with this movie still exists (Tired Khan story, Kirk’s “death” and Spocks emotional reaction) I am forced to concede that it worked better viewing at home than the theater.

199. Curious Cadet - September 14, 2013

@197 SUA,
“I don’t think Uhura would have ever had Spock come to her dorm quarters. They would have been the most discrete couple possible. And I think he would have waited until she wasn’t taking any of his classes anymore to pursue something with her, something that they both fell into and then fell in love…”

It’s a matter of canon per Bob Orci and the IDW comics that Uhura pursued Spock aggressively, literally the minute after she completed his class. Spock seemingly had no interest otherwise and appeared surprised at her revelation and the prospect of her proposal, within a “few months” Spock increased their level of intimacy with a mind meld that revealed one of Uhura’s most tragic moments in life.

200. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

@194 Curious

I just looked at your link and read this:

“There’s so many different VAM packages out there, it seems that even the official site can’t keep it all straight – so let’s see if we can’t clear this mess up, starting with the video exclusives.”

That’s bad…

201. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

@ 199 Curious

Thank God I don’t read the comics then… The fanfiction stories that I read from a very popular and well regarded fanfic writer were fantastic–especially compared to that… No offense to anyone that likes the comics…

In the fanfic canon that I read, Uhura became Spock’s teacher’s aide after completing his courses while she was in her final year or so of study at Starfleet. They worked together side-by-side and, over time, they both slowing gained admiration and more of an attraction to one another that they eventually could not deny. Things nicely moved on from there. I MUCH prefer this version of events over the comics you’ve outlined…

202. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

Correction: I think she was a junior in Starfleet (if it’s a 4 year program) when she was his aide and they fell for each other, and in her final (senior) year they started dating and dealt with the anti-fraternization charge. It wouldn’t hurt to read those stories again. They were very nice and well thought out…

203. TUP - September 14, 2013

I could do with the end of the romance. It’s very ice cold and is used to create too many comedic moments at the expense of professional realism. Zero chemistry. And it forced the writers into very little time for Kirk romance aside from portraying him as a blatant womanizer which is sort of the surface perspective of the character but not the reality in my opinion

204. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

I think you’re in the minority, TUP. They mishandled S/U in STID, but they were sizzling and beautiful in ST09. Their story was a highlight of the film. Kirk completely dominated STID. If he didn’t get a “romance,” then it wasn’t because of S/U. Frankly, I prefer to see him get his bearings as captain first before worrying about having a steady girlfriend. Based off of what I know about the TOS counterpart, Kirk wasn’t the long-term relationship kind. That’s why if they have to spend more time on Carol and put her with someone, then I’d chose Bones… She’s not very popular in fan-fiction, though, but she seems to be JJ or the creative staff’s new toy, so I guess we’ll see what happens…

Personally, I’ll have to know that they handled S/U well and give them really good writing and screen time to make up for this film in order for me to watch the next one. That’s also true for a number of S/U fans I’ve come across… And once again, they were something new fans, some old fans, and critics alike praised about ST09. I’ve read many reviews that share my hope in Spock and Uhura getting back on track.

205. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

^In addition, I think if they do end up doing more with her, then they might go the “Scotty” route where she takes up about a third of the film while the original cast gets crumbs. I think that would be a mistake…

206. Marja - September 14, 2013

174 TUP, Sorry to be so late to the party … “I do agree the emotional scenes were emotional. But too many others lacked emotional depth. Even Pike’s death lacked depth. He really was murdered like a chump. I wanted to see him fighting back, saving lives, sacrificing himself like he did in the Prime universe. I understand meaningless deaths can be emotional but Pike’s shouldn’t have been. His should have been the example to Kirk – accepting a “no win situation” and doing everything you can to save whomever you can. Instead, he was shot down too quickly. There was no honour or bravery in his death.”

I would say that, in a situation where he was under fire, Pike was taking action. Despite having a leg[?] shot up, he was dragging himself to cover to report and ask for support from SF forces [to save everyone]. Right after that he did get shot down, and I regretted he couldn’t have done more in a more able-bodied way before that happened, dragging others to safety, and so on. Kirk rushing off to try to end Khan’s attack showed Kirk’s initiative and genius in action, and I wish Pike could have been showing similar genius in action in the conference room.

So while I agree with much of what you say, I dispute that ‘there was no honor or bravery in his death.’ There would have been if he hadn’t been crippled by that leg shot early on. There was at least honor in his trying to get support to save the group ….

207. Curious Cadet - September 14, 2013

@206 Marja,

I also don’t buy Orci’s comment that Spock was learning more about the human condition by mind melding with Pike as he died. Not that it’s not true, mind you, because whatever Spock was actually up to, he couldn’t help but not learn something about the human condition. But how does it relate to the rest of the film? Where was the payoff for this seemingly arbitrary moment?

On it’s face morbid and creepy. Why wasn’t Spock trying to resuscitate Pike instead of probing his dying mind? With Kirk there was nothing he could do … but Pike?

Considering the *Ahem* homages to TWOK, why wouldn’t we expect the mindmeld to be some sort of “Remember” moment? And then there’s the pointless way Pike died.

No I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Pike, one way or another.

208. Disinvited - September 14, 2013

#179. LogicalLeopard – September 13, 2013

I think where your logic is fails is: I live in SoCal, a part of the world where people dress up as historical figures more than just the masquerade parties that are still celebrated around Halloween and New Year’s. When I see an undeniably indistinguishable from the real deal Hitler walking down the streets my goto thought isn’t “Adolf’s been in suspended animation for nigh on 70 years and returned to exact his revenge!”

Now to be fair to your point, there have been news reports of Final Solution survivors having near heart attacks when stumbling across these facsimiles, and I just read of a 90yo Concentration Camp guard that’s going to be put on trial for war crimes. But my point is most people’s conclusion upon seeing someone 300 years later that looked exactly like Khan in his prime, would not be that that person WAS, in fact, the historical figure. It would be rationalized in any of other of number of ways.

Even if we were to postulate extensive use of facial recognition (which seemed really weak and easily defeated by makeup in CONSCIENCE OF THE KING) following the Nero revenge, do you honestly think the Feds would not have pared down the database to only those living or missing/unconfirmed dead of their century?

209. LogicalLeopard - September 14, 2013

187. Curious Cadet – September 13, 2013

So I’m formulating a response to your point about Khan not reverting to an Indian accent, and I’m thinking initially….well, why would he? He’s been going on so long (he’s had the identity for a year) why switch? Because it’s more comfortable? No, Hindi, or whatever language he originally spoke would be most comfortable. He’s spent a year in this identity, and speaks English (much to my chagrin as an American) flawlessly. Just because he tells someone who he is doesn’t mean that he’s going to lapse into an accent.

And then it hit me.

What language WAS Khan speaking in Space Seed?

Was he speaking English? Well, Kirk & Co speak Federation Standard, right? So, aren’t those two different languages? Maybe Khan was speaking Hindi, etc, and the UT just made it “sound” like accented English. I know this is sort of Fourth-Wall science, but I never really thought about this before. When we talk about Scotty’s or Chekov’s accent, really, it’s probably just a regional dialect of Federation Standard. So maybe Khan in this movie isn’t speaking Engish, he’s speaking English-Accented Federation Standard. He’s never spoken Hindi-Accented Federation Standard, so he wouldn’t lapse into the accent.

Well, whatever’s true, I think the real point behind this is that accents are so artificial in Star Trek, and television in general, they mean almost nothing in themselves. Like with Khan. If we want to be technical, Khan from Space Seed/TWOK didn’t have a Hindi accent. It was just some weird thing Ricardo Montalbon devised that sounded foreign, and since we knew Khan was Indian, we assumed it was a Hindi accent. Listen to Khan, then anyone of Indian or Pakistani descent, and you’ll know this is true.

As far as what Orci intended, that’s low priority for me. We can debate whether or not the “whitewashing” of the character was valid. I’d probably tend to agree with you on many points. But I’m more concerned about whether or not it’s possible to accept the different look as valid in-universe. And I believe the answer is unquestionably yes.

210. LogicalLeopard - September 14, 2013

197. Spock/Uhura Admirer – September 14, 2013

Oh, that was an exaggerated joke *LOL* I would like to see Sad Sack Hendorff, but that’s something that can be resolved in the comics or future novels. As far as Hendorff and other characters, I would like to see a bit of lower deck action in the next movie. Maybe a brief scene with Hendorff, Darwin, and Lobot, or other auxilary characters. And when I say brief, just a few seconds of discussion about something.

211. LogicalLeopard - September 14, 2013

208. Disinvited – September 14, 2013

#179. LogicalLeopard – September 13, 2013

I think where your logic is fails is: I live in SoCal, a part of the world where people dress up as historical figures more than just the masquerade parties that are still celebrated around Halloween and New Year’s. When I see an undeniably indistinguishable from the real deal Hitler walking down the streets my goto thought isn’t “Adolf’s been in suspended animation for nigh on 70 years and returned to exact his revenge!”

************************************

The key difference between Adolf & Khan is this – Sleeper Ship technology. Sure, records are sketchy around then, but I believe it was stated that a good amount of supermen weren’t accounted for at the end of the war. And if you have sleeper technology, you have the possibility that they’re sitting in some underground bunker on Earth, some uber secret facility off planet, or they’re the grandparents of some far flung Earth colonists. Given that, who knows if there are history/conspiracy nuts who have been actively looking for them? People still look for Amelia Earhardt’s plane, because it’s an unsolved mystery. That’s enough justification to be cautious and change his identity in itself.
*****************************************************

Now to be fair to your point, there have been news reports of Final Solution survivors having near heart attacks when stumbling across these facsimiles, and I just read of a 90yo Concentration Camp guard that’s going to be put on trial for war crimes. But my point is most people’s conclusion upon seeing someone 300 years later that looked exactly like Khan in his prime, would not be that that person WAS, in fact, the historical figure. It would be rationalized in any of other of number of ways.
********************************

Most people wouldn’t notice, more still wouldn’t care, but there’s always that one obsessive nerd out there *LOL* But even still, Starfleet is full of PhD caliber historians like McGivers. So, you’ve got a significant IN HOUSE contingent of people you have to worry about, not just the conspiracy nuts I mentioned previously. And Khan was given a public identity (Commander John Harrison), so it stands to reason that he had to interact with Starfleet at large. Kirk said he didn’t exist until a year ago,so he’s had dealings with the Starfleet rank and file. All it takes is one person to say:

“Dude…..so that guy eating across from us in the mess hall? Right over there? TOTALLY looks like Khan Noonien Singh. I should know, I dressed up like him in 2nd Grade Advanced Asian History. Wanted to go as Genghis Khan, but was allergic to the mustache. Hey, you don’t think…..I mean, they had sleeper ships back then….”

“Dude, shut up, you’ve been drinking tranya….”

“No, no, no……hey, watch this…..HEY! HEY KHAN!!!!!! KHAN NOONIEN SINGH!!!!”

“Shut up!”

“Hey….uh….wait dude…he looked at me….”

“That’s because you’re yelling across the mess hall like an idiot”

“Well, yeah but…..dude..you don’t THINK….”

***********

Even if we were to postulate extensive use of facial recognition (which seemed really weak and easily defeated by makeup in CONSCIENCE OF THE KING) following the Nero revenge, do you honestly think the Feds would not have pared down the database to only those living or missing/unconfirmed dead of their century?ho

***************************

I don’t remember all of Conscience of the King…..but he was recognized by Kirks’ friend, right?

As far as the database, I’m not talking about an official database. I’m talking about either a funny online search, like something that you plug in a historical figure, then wait for a result about who best matches it. Like an online, social media kind of joke thing. Put in Henry the VIII, get George Hossenfelter of Cestus III. Or, a deliberate search of someone, like the Starfleet Historian I spoofed above, compared pictures of the two together.

Now, granted, the chances of this may not be very good. You have to have someone first of all see Khan, then recoginize that he looks similar to Khan, then follow up on it. But if Admiral Marcus was wiling to launch missles at the Klingon Homeworld to cover up his mistake, plus kill an entire crew of innocent Starfleet personnel, why wouldn’t he take an HOUR to hook Khan up with a Starfleet doc and change his identity?

212. LogicalLeopard - September 14, 2013

By the way, I just watched STID for the first time on video, third time overall…..and that Kirk death scene gets sadder EVERY time I see it. I’m a big burly he-man, and am not prone to crying much, but those saline bombs were halfway up my tear ducts this time…..that scene SUCKS emotionally to watch. It’s that stupid, brilliant score of Michael Giacchino’s that twists the dagger, too!

I loves me some “Ship….out of danger?” and Kirk almost blubbering during Spock’s funeral, but…..this one is worse. “Spock…I’m scared…..help me not to be…” See? The tears went a quarter up the duct right then? Forget this, I’m going to sleep *LOL*

213. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 14, 2013

^@LLeopard

Oh, I figured it was, and I got a little tickle out of it. I think seeing Hendorff would be nice with the other officers as well. Darwin is also surprisingly popular in some of the ST fan communities I’ve visited for a character that wasn’t really featured in STID. I think it’d be interesting to see her interact with Sulu since she’s Chekov’s alternate. Oh, and I think I’m a bit more generous. I think 30 to 60 seconds would be good. ;-)

214. Curious Cadet - September 15, 2013

@209 Logical Leopard,
“I think the real point behind this is that accents are so artificial in Star Trek, and television in general, they mean almost nothing in themselves.”

I don’t disagree. Montalban spoke with his own Mexican accent, far more preferred than his painful attempt to do a Japanese accent when he was cast as a Japanese character in Hawaii Five-0. I can’t imagine how his Hindi accent would sound. In fact British is a preferred accent given the history of the region (which I wouldn’t have wanted to hear Montalban do either).

But as dmduncan was fond of saying, we’re getting caught up in the details.

It’s not about the accent per se. My point is this: there was no effort whatsoever to show Khan was any different from John Harrison. As I understand your contention, John Harrison was a role Khan was playing to go undercover for a specific assignment that required him to pass as a white British man, and that accounts for the appearance change and accent. Therefore, Khan — and to be clear we are speaking of Khan Noonien Singh, the genetic and intellectual superior to over 1/4 of the Earth’s population from the Middle East to Asia — continued to behave exactly the same as we were first introduced to him as John Harrison, after he “dropped all pretense” and announced he was Khan. If they had done anything, anything at all to distinguish between the two, I’d say there was reason to believe his appearance had been changed for whatever reason. The accent would have been the most obvious way to deal with this. But they could have done anything else to show his outward appearance and affectations were reviled by him, but they didn’t, and I can’t imagine any reality where the Khan I met in Space Seed would be OK with that.

You can dismiss Orci’s intentions all you want, but canon doesn’t support any of these theories either. Once we start trying to reconcile Cumberbatch’s appearance with Montalban in universe, the explanations just go further and further out on a limb. Yes, one can say anything about anything we see on screen which is not otherwise definitively explained. But saying Khan had a mission where he had to look, act and sound a particular way, and then was so used to looking and behaving that way he just continued it stretches credulity. As I said earlier, he’s not Madonna. Once we go down that particular rabbit hole to reconcile something like this, then you can say that about any character — Kirk could be an alien shapeshifter sent to infiltrate Starfleet.

But at the end of the day, whether you accept Orci’s intent as a priority or not; what I’m stating is that everything Orci has told us about why Khan is not played by a non-white actor should dictate what happens in the IDW Khan backstory. Because his objection to casting a non-white actor is a moral one, there is no way he should allow Khan’s appearance to be altered from that of Montalban to Cumberbatch. And for this reason I continue to maintain that we will see Cumberbatch depicted as Khan in the 1990s, perhaps even a retconed reason he has a Punjabi Sikh name in the official canon IDW comic.

What I’m not saying is that your convoluted scenario couldn’t be possible — in fact its one of the few, however unrealistic, that accounts for all of the differences; just that it’s unlikely to be the in-universe reason we are officially given.

215. Curious Cadet - September 15, 2013

@214 re: 209 Logical Leopard MORE^^^^

I mean can you imagine this scene:

Soon after awakening his followers:
Khan — ah Joaquin, my old friend and trusted lieutenant. Good to see you breathing fresh air again!
Joaquin — ummmm, who are you?
Khan — I’m Khan. Khan Noonien Singh, ruler of 1/4 of the Earths population from the Middle East to Asia.
Joaquin — Dude, I know Khan, and you’re no Khan.
Khan — how dare you, I am your physical and intellectual superior …
Joaquin — well you talk like Khan, but you’re all pasty white and speak with a British accent, and you don’t look anything like him …
Khan — ohhhhh thaaaaaaat … Well, when your lives were being held hostage to force me to work for this inferior intellect, I was ordered into this undercover assignment where I was made to pose as this British guy, and it was so much trouble to go through the hour of surgery, and learn the Chelsea dialect; it’s very complicated really; and after living that way for a time, I just kind of got used to it. It’s actually a nice change from that whole Indian Sikh thing with that Mexican accent I was sporting, and I don’t have to do any of that meditation/stretching stuff anymore, or wear my hair long, I mean how do women think with all that hair in their face, and white people don’t make as much fun of me as they used to … What do you think?
Joaquin — no I was right the first time, you’re not Khan, kill the infidel!!

216. Marja - September 15, 2013

207 Curious, “No I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Pike, one way or another.”

[gleefully clasping hands together] Oh I DO hope you are right, I do I do I do ….

209 Logical, [a comical moment if I may] – I KNOW! – Russell Peters as Khan! He can do ALL kinds of accents ….

212 Logical, It’s those damned violins and cellos … [snif] … I think the same music used upon Pike’s death … Those moments were emotionally raw and the music made them incredibly moving. I cried at least twice during my first STiD viewing. It was okay, I was among Trekfans : )

217. LogicalLeopard - September 16, 2013

214. & 215. Curious Cadet – September 15, 2013

It’s not about the accent per se. My point is this: there was no effort whatsoever to show Khan was any different from John Harrison. As I understand your contention, John Harrison was a role Khan was playing to go undercover for a specific assignment that required him to pass as a white British man, and that accounts for the appearance change and accent. Therefore, Khan — and to be clear we are speaking of Khan Noonien Singh, the genetic and intellectual superior to over 1/4 of the Earth’s population from the Middle East to Asia — continued to behave exactly the same as we were first introduced to him as John Harrison, after he “dropped all pretense” and announced he was Khan. If they had done anything, anything at all to distinguish between the two, I’d say there was reason to believe his appearance had been changed for whatever reason. The accent would have been the most obvious way to deal with this. But they could have done anything else to show his outward appearance and affectations were reviled by him, but they didn’t, and I can’t imagine any reality where the Khan I met in Space Seed would be OK with that.

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I get what you’re saying. It would have been nice to see some sort of shift, either in his acting and demeanor or his accent, which is the easiest way to let the audience know he’s a different person. If not the accent, he could have taken on Montalbon’s (or something like it) kind of cool, suave demeanor.

I’ve discussed why I didn’t think there was a need to drop out of the accent before, but I submit that the reason why we didn’t see any change in demeanor is because we’re seeing the true Khan all along. A ticked off, devious plotting Khan. Not the “Starship? How nice, I’ll think I’ll take it from you idiots right after this Yoga” leisurely Khan from Space Seed, and not a “I”ve just spent years daydreaming about how I was going to spoonfeed you portions of your own liver while sitting in a bunker in a hostile environment” Khan from TWOK. This is a Khan that has adjusted to higher stakes with his hands tied, without an army (platoon?) at his disposal. He’s been embarrased. “Welcome Khan, nice to meet you. You’re our slave. Go run errands.” So he’s doing everything as quickly and efficiently as possible. If they ever do another one with Khan, hopefully we’ll see more of the Space Seed version, confident, charming, with an army of augments behind him. But the Khan we saw was just trying to get his family back first. But I think we get a fair share of the arrogance, superiority, and plotting of the original, just amped up due to the situation.

And also, remember, the “reveal” of Khan was to the audience, not to Kirk & Co. They knew him as Harrison, but I don’t recall Khan ever masquerading as Harrison, other than looking like him and talking with the accent he did. He didn’t plead and say, “No, really, I’m John Harrison. I’m a Starfleet Officer!” As I remember, Kirk asks, and Khan tells him immediately.

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Yes, one can say anything about anything we see on screen which is not otherwise definitively explained. But saying Khan had a mission where he had to look, act and sound a particular way, and then was so used to looking and behaving that way he just continued it stretches credulity. As I said earlier, he’s not Madonna. Once we go down that particular rabbit hole to reconcile something like this, then you can say that about any character — Kirk could be an alien shapeshifter sent to infiltrate Starfleet.
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I”m sorry, I should clarify the whole point I’m discussing this. When you’re watching Star Trek, or any movie, suspension of disbelief is integral to enjoying the movie. If I see something that looks wrong, and after two minutes of thought can come up with a feasable explanation, then the matter is settled and I can continue to enjoy the movie. If I have to go into a bunch of mental gymnastics to do that, and still can’t come up with something pleasing, then it’s a plot hole that distracts.

There were a few issues that came up with this movie where I thought, “Er….what?” But they didn’t distract from the movie, because I was able to settle them quickly. The writers aren’t going to explain EVERYTHING, and in a case where you can come up with a quick explanation, they shouldn’t have to. I know we’d LIKE them to, but you drag a movie when you carry those burdens. So, my assessment on Khan is just what I believe is a logical explanation that comforts me until I get a real one, or even if I don’t get a real one. Khan’s appearance is one of the LEAST problems I had with this movie, and I think it’s personally one of the worst criticisms, right behind “How can the Enterprise go underwater *LOL* But we all differ on those quibbles, but I just think it distracted some people a bit too much.

By the way, here are some bigger quibbles I had:

Spock’s total disregard for the temporal integrity: Wonderful to see Leonard Nimoy again, I had no clue he’d be in the movie. But….did Spock HAVE to basically let the WHOLE BRIDGE CREW know that there was an older version of himself running around the same time? *L* Couldn’t he take that call in the Captain’s ready room?

No help from Earth: There were a bunch of ships in the system, right? A firefight happens near the moon, and not so much as a Workbee shows up? To paraphrase Marcus, “There’s a war coming, and who’s going to defend us? YOU???” Well, apparently NOBODY is going to defend Earth *LOL* If two ships can show up, slug it out over the moon, sit there stranded, drift towards earth, and FALL INTO ORBIT with no problem! The Klingons don’t have to invade, they can just warp their space trash into orbit of earth and dump it into the atmosphere.

I try as much as possible to prevent things like that from keeping me from enjoying the movie, and although they didn’t stop me from enjoying it, those were two things I still can’t really resolve well.
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Khan — ohhhhh thaaaaaaat … Well, when your lives were being held hostage to force me to work for this inferior intellect, I was ordered into this undercover assignment where I was made to pose as this British guy, and it was so much trouble to go through the hour of surgery, and learn the Chelsea dialect; it’s very complicated really; and after living that way for a time, I just kind of got used to it. It’s actually a nice change from that whole Indian Sikh thing with that Mexican accent I was sporting, and I don’t have to do any of that meditation/stretching stuff anymore, or wear my hair long, I mean how do women think with all that hair in their face, and white people don’t make as much fun of me as they used to … What do you think?
*************************************

*LOL* Well, yeah, that would make for an awkward reunion if Khan woke anyone up while he was still looking like he did. I’m thinking he’d alter himself back to his original look before he did that. Remember, the rest of the augments were hostages. I’m assuming that Khan’s plan was to get them away from Earth once he took care of Starfleet Command. After that, it’s probably not much of a big deal to get the changes taken care of. Like I’ve said about plastic surgery before: at least by DS9 time, it seems a cinch to alter skin color, head shapes, even teeth shapes, such as in the case of Obrien who had to get his skin color altered to appear Klingon.

218. LogicalLeopard - September 16, 2013

216. Marja – September 15, 2013

209 Logical, [a comical moment if I may] – I KNOW! – Russell Peters as Khan! He can do ALL kinds of accents ….
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*L* I’m not familiar with Russell Peters, but hey, it may work *LOL* You know, one Trek moment I found suprisingly good was when Seven of Nine was exhibiting those multiple personalities. I don’t remember why that was now, but I do remember her playing a Bolian hairdresser *LOL* Maybe SHE could play Khan, she can obviously play different characters simultaneously.
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212 Logical, It’s those damned violins and cellos … [snif] … I think the same music used upon Pike’s death … Those moments were emotionally raw and the music made them incredibly moving. I cried at least twice during my first STiD viewing. It was okay, I was among Trekfans : )
*******************

Yeah, that Giacchino guy is horrible, with his violins, cellos, and…and bassoons, or whatever! He really poured salt in the wound that was caused by an already stellar acting job. I had to be macho during the showing and make sure no tears…er….excess testosterone, leaked out through my eyes. It’s surprising that I didn’t have to yell, “Tears, where do you think you’re going??!?! GET back down there!!!”

219. star trackie - September 16, 2013

I watched into Darkness with my parents last night. They loved it! They knew who Khan was, from the TV show and the movies, and they were blindsided when “Harrison” revealed his true identity. And they were on the edge of their seats the rest of the movie. See, there are fans, like me. Like my folks. Like everyday people, who really loved Star Trek the original series. People like my uncle. My Dentist. Some teachers. But they weren’t and aren’t fanatical. They just like it and enjoy it, but they don’t live and breathe it. It’s not a hobby for them. They don’t haunt message boards and they don’t collect action figures or read novels or tech manuals. They just like it. That’s who Trek is appealing to again and in a big way. The fanatics however, are a boisterous bunch, in an uproar while the new casual fans shrugg it off, smile, and say how good it was…and move on. And I know, arguing back and forth is part of the fun for some. But any notion that this movie is broken is just plain silly. The fans love it. The fanatics, be it Next Genners or Khaniphobes, however…well…just read these boards for their opinions, they’re very easy to find! lol

220. Nick - September 16, 2013

JOHN de LANCIE
Voice of the Dreadnaught Computer? (Uncredited.)
Nick (Visalia, CA)

221. Marja - September 16, 2013

217, Logical, “Spock’s total disregard for the temporal integrity: Wonderful to see Leonard Nimoy again, I had no clue he’d be in the movie. But….did Spock HAVE to basically let the WHOLE BRIDGE CREW know that there was an older version of himself running around the same time? *L* Couldn’t he take that call in the Captain’s ready room?”
he didn’t even have to do that – If the addresses had been changed to “Ambassador.” “Commander.” The audience would know they are both Spock. I blame Lindelof, possibly erroneously – nothing like underlining an obvious point ….

“No help from Earth: There were a bunch of ships in the system, right?”
Hmm, maybe all the ships had to go somewhere else to get new captains and first officers after they all got killed off at SFHQ? hahaha, right.

“A firefight happens near the moon, and not so much as a Workbee shows up? To paraphrase Marcus, “There’s a war coming, and who’s going to defend us? YOU???” Well, apparently NOBODY is going to defend Earth *LOL* ”
I laugh, sadly laugh, right along with you.

These, along with the COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY “REVEAL” OF KHAN, were two of the biggest plot holes in the whole. I say “completely unnecessary” because the majority of the moviegoing audience had no idea who Khan was, and neither did the Enterprise crew, even the encyclopedic Spock. So “Khan” had little significance to any but Lindelof, who probably thought the inclusion would tickle Trekfans and maybe stir some memories on the parts of folks who’d casually watched TOS or seen TWOK. It ultimately did neither and made a ridiculous point in a pretty good movie.

222. Keachick - September 16, 2013

John Harrison calling himself Khan is not a plot hole.

223. Matt Wright - September 16, 2013

@ 220 – Nope, the Vengeance computer was Bill Hader. We covered it in a previous article when STID was in theaters.
http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/18/snls-bill-hader-has-star-trek-into-darkness-voice-cameo-more-tidbits-from-cast-credits/

224. Disinvited - September 16, 2013

#211. LogicalLeopard – September 14, 2013

Hmmm…maybe this is a residual retcon holdover from one of the novels but I’m fairly certain in the episode The Enterprise crew is surprised that Khan had access to a working hibernation spaceship. Thus, I am not certain that was considered a possible out for him and company at the time of his departure. At least, I think we can presume that in this regard they covered their tracks?

I am fascinated by your scenario where some 23rd century CSI team would be busy trying to solve these serial Eugenics Wars reenactors’ deaths as Khan offs the annoying questioners seeking to know how he got it so right. Any guess on how many Khan would have to deal with before he’d think “I’m going to need a disguise.”?

As for your other topic on accents: this isn’t much, but in the 1960s we deduced from Scotty’s quarters decor and Chekov’s excessive Russian pride that it was a fad at that time to honor one’s 20th century ancestors by mastering as close as possible how one of them would be presumed to have spoken the planetary wide known language of English of then. The reason the accents were “off” is most of the 23rd century citizens used surviving recorded TV and motion picture entertainment as historical references.

We also presumed that mastery of multiple languages was common in the Federation education system as a requirement and that English was one of them.

Evidence that the Federation crew knew and spoke perfect English:

In TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY, when Kirk beams down into the Air Force facility of 20th century Earth to recovery to reconnaissance footage, he sports no universal translator. And even if he had, it would have been confiscated when he was captured and there would be no way they would have given him access to it. Yet, during interrogation Kirk understood their questions and they understood his answers.

In the movie TVH nobody sported UTs when roaming about San Francisco, but even if they had Chekov’s clearly wouldn’t have been functioning when he was talking to that cop. And yet, other Californians, understood his question enough to answer “Alameda”. But again, he was captured and interrogated, and there was no way his captors would have given him access to any of his devices, including a UT if he had one.

225. LogicalLeopard - September 17, 2013

219. star trackie – September 16, 2013

See, there are fans, like me. Like my folks. Like everyday people, who really loved Star Trek the original series. People like my uncle. My Dentist. Some teachers. But they weren’t and aren’t fanatical. They just like it and enjoy it, but they don’t live and breathe it. It’s not a hobby for them. They don’t haunt message boards and they don’t collect action figures or read novels or tech manuals. They just like it.

****************

And that is why Star Trek continues to win at the box office, and probably in DVD sales too. The casual fan will go see it, and like it. The obsessive fan will go see it and like it, and if he/she really likes it, they’ll see it multiple times. The obsessive, pessimistic fan will complain about it on message boards from the time the next film is announced, through the revelation of each and every tidbit about the movie, AND STILL go see it at least once, to verify how bad it is *LOL* And the casual person off the street who isnt’ very familiar with Star Trek will watch it and like it. It’s brilliant, really.

226. LogicalLeopard - September 17, 2013

he didn’t even have to do that – If the addresses had been changed to “Ambassador.” “Commander.” The audience would know they are both Spock. I blame Lindelof, possibly erroneously – nothing like underlining an obvious point ….

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That would have made it better, although it’s credible to believe that there are two Vulcans with the name Spock. However, when you combine that with the body of the message, about encountering Khan, and the fact that if Spock can recognize himself as an older man, then the crew should be able to recognize him as an older man. You know….I GUESS many people might not have noticed….maybe they thought he was Spock’s grandfather, and maybe they thought Spocks’ grandfather was a Vulcan Intelligence agent or something, who knows…..but that’s too close for comfort, in my opinion.

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Hmm, maybe all the ships had to go somewhere else to get new captains and first officers after they all got killed off at SFHQ? hahaha, right.

********************************

*LOL* Yeah, right…..that’s one I’m still trying to find a credible reason for. I thought it was strange that Mudd’s ship was able to make it onto Qo’noS without being shot down in Orbit. I would think that a small craft would not be approved to land on Qo’noS without being inspected in orbit. But who knows? Maybe they bribed someone, maybe Mudd bribed someone and had records on the ship and they were allowed to safely pass. But posing as an arms dealer and landing safely on a planet cannot be compared to SLUGGING IT OUT IN ORBIT, DESTROYING EACH OTHER, THEN FALLING INTO ORBIT *LOL* If I were in San Fransisco, I’d surely join in on the class action lawsuit against Starfleet. What? You can’t protect us against TWO SHIPS? Two ships from STARFLEET?!!?!? *LOL*
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These, along with the COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY “REVEAL” OF KHAN, were two of the biggest plot holes in the whole. I say “completely unnecessary” because the majority of the moviegoing audience had no idea who Khan was, and neither did the Enterprise crew, even the encyclopedic Spock. So “Khan” had little significance to any but Lindelof, who probably thought the inclusion would tickle Trekfans and maybe stir some memories on the parts of folks who’d casually watched TOS or seen TWOK. It ultimately did neither and made a ridiculous point in a pretty good movie.
************************************

I wouldn’t say Khan’s reveal was a plot hole. That’s the story they went with, that’s the story they told. Was it necessary? Well, no, but then again, it’s not necessary to have ANY of the Characters in this movie. It could be Robert April and Co. But this is what they wanted to do, and that’s what they did.

Also, I’m not going to say that the crew of the Enterprise didn’t know who Khan was. When Khan revealed himself, Kirk didnt’ say, “Khan? Chaka Khan? What do you mean, Khan?” And he seemed to accept it, by asking him why would Marcus thraw out a 300 year old frozen man or something to that extent. But the thing about Khan they didn’t know is how capable he was. No one would know that, because no one had actually LIVED among human augments for a while. They may make the mistake of thinking that he’s like a Vulcan – stronger and smarter, but the mistake is that Vulcans don’t seem particularly dangerous. Human augments are predators. Kirk eventually figured it out in the wonderful line to Scotty on the Vengeance, “I’mmmmm pretty sure we’re helping HIM….”

As far as Khan being in the movie….well, I agree it could have been a different person, but I kind of liked it. BC gave a good performance, and I think he portrayed a different side of Khan – the business side. Space Seed’s Khan was sort of happy go lucky. “Thanks for thawing me, Captain…..now If you’ll please surrender your ship and your women, I’ll be on my way.” TWOK Khan was a revenge oriented Khan. He spent years dreaming about exacting his revenge on Kirk (and probably working on his lines for when he killed him *LOL*) But this Khan is one that has been shamed. He’s been treated like a slave, with his people held as hostage. He was ticked off, and it showed through the movie. He looked like a caged animal, which is exactly what he was – caged by his captive “famiily” and waiting for the first chance to strike.

I saw a comment on YouTube yesterday, which highlighted something I COMPLETELY missed *LOL* Khan derides Spock, asking “You can’t even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone.” The comment said, “So, how’s that arm doing, Khan?” *LOLOLOLOL* And as you may remember, in the fight with Spock, Spock audibly breaks Khan’s arm over his shoulder *LOL*

That was another interesting aspect of Khan’s manipulation – of course you need to come between the Captain and First Officer to foment confusion and get your way, but it seemed like he just really didn’t like Spock .*L* I think that he just didn’t like Vulcans in general – they’ve got all this physical strength and all of this intellingence, but do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with it, according to Khan’s mindset. They serve as the lapdogs of the same stupid, inferior humans that were responsible for ousting Khan from power in the first place.

But interestingly enough, Khan’s arrogance and underestimation of Spock led to his downfall, just like his arrogance and underestimation of Kirk led to his downfall in TWOK.

227. LogicalLeopard - September 17, 2013

224. Disinvited – September 16, 2013

Hmmm…maybe this is a residual retcon holdover from one of the novels but I’m fairly certain in the episode The Enterprise crew is surprised that Khan had access to a working hibernation spaceship. Thus, I am not certain that was considered a possible out for him and company at the time of his departure. At least, I think we can presume that in this regard they covered their tracks?
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As I remember, and I could be wrong as well, I don’t think they were suprised that he had access to a working hibernation ship, because the technology existed. I think they were suprised that the hibernation ship was still WORKING after 300 years *L* Which is amazing in itself.

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I am fascinated by your scenario where some 23rd century CSI team would be busy trying to solve these serial Eugenics Wars reenactors’ deaths as Khan offs the annoying questioners seeking to know how he got it so right. Any guess on how many Khan would have to deal with before he’d think “I’m going to need a disguise.”?
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The answer is none. Khan says that the idenitity of John Harrison was created for him the moment he was awakened out of his sleep. Starfleet did it immediately, so I’m guessing they altered his apperance immediately. And by immediately, I’m saying, once they got him back to Earth, discovered who he was, and decided to use him.

As far as the “23rd Century CSI team”, it’s more like just guys who still sit around in their underwear and go online in the 23rd Century. Or history sleuths. Conspiracy theorists. If there are working sleeper ships in 1996, then ANYONE who came up missing from earth during that era would be able to get away. Actually…..even probably Hitler *LOL* There are still people today who think Hitler escaped from Germany, but people in the Star Trek world could probably think he escaped to Alpha Centauri as an old man.

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As for your other topic on accents: this isn’t much, but in the 1960s we deduced from Scotty’s quarters decor and Chekov’s excessive Russian pride that it was a fad at that time to honor one’s 20th century ancestors by mastering as close as possible how one of them would be presumed to have spoken the planetary wide known language of English of then. The reason the accents were “off” is most of the 23rd century citizens used surviving recorded TV and motion picture entertainment as historical references.
**********************************

Well, we have two things. One, you have the real world situation – Accents were used because they were entertaining to the audience. But in universe, if you have Federation Standard, they don’t need to watch recorded TV to get the accents. When Federation Standard became the central language, people would still still speak their own language, and even when they forgot their original language, they’d still speak it with the regional accents of their their nation, most likely. If someone made Spanish the Universal Langauge tommorrow, my Spanish would feature a heavy American accent, Japanese speakers would speak it with a Japanese Accent, Mexicans already speak it with a Mexican Accent, Chileans speak it with a Chilean accent, etc.
*********************************

We also presumed that mastery of multiple languages was common in the Federation education system as a requirement and that English was one of them.

Evidence that the Federation crew knew and spoke perfect English:

In TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY, when Kirk beams down into the Air Force facility of 20th century Earth to recovery to reconnaissance footage, he sports no universal translator. And even if he had, it would have been confiscated when he was captured and there would be no way they would have given him access to it. Yet, during interrogation Kirk understood their questions and they understood his answers.
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Well, remember, Kirk may know English because he’s from Iowa. So would Bones, Sulu, and Scotty. Uhura’s from Kenya, I believe, so she’d probably speak English too. The only problems would be Chekov and Spock, who may know English because it’s his mother’s language.
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In the movie TVH nobody sported UTs when roaming about San Francisco, but even if they had Chekov’s clearly wouldn’t have been functioning when he was talking to that cop. And yet, other Californians, understood his question enough to answer “Alameda”. But again, he was captured and interrogated, and there was no way his captors would have given him access to any of his devices, including a UT if he had one.

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I think thats a flub more than anything. But if he had his communicator with him, then that’s the Universal Translator, right?

The UT is a technology that doesn’t always conform to reality, because it’s a plot device that you assume is always present. By DS9 Era, UT’s are implanted in people, right? Quark had one installed I believe in Little Green Men. Not sure how it went in TOS, I thought the communicator worked as a UT even when it was closed somehow. But who knows?

228. Curious Cadet - September 17, 2013

@217 Logical Leopard,
“If I see something that looks wrong, and after two minutes of thought can come up with a feasable explanation, then the matter is settled and I can continue to enjoy the movie. If I have to go into a bunch of mental gymnastics to do that, and still can’t come up with something pleasing, then it’s a plot hole that distracts.”

OK, I suppose I would agree with that.

In the case of STID, and ST09 for that matter, Abrams helps with this process by movie so quickly you don’t have time to even do this.

Nevertheless, look how many hoops we’ve had to jump through to even remotely explain Khan’s appearance change well after, in some cases, multiple viewings of the movie.

As far as Khan’s appearance being a plot hole, I would say it is only a plot hole in context of Orci’s pontification to the fans regarding QM MWI which supposedly governs this entire reboot. If Kirk were suddenly recast by a black actor in the sequel for some reason with no explanation, then for the fans it would most definitely be a plot hole. General audiences might not even notice.

For my edification, while I find it mildly amusing to retcon Khan’s appearance in-universe; it’s so convoluted at this point, that I prefer to accept what I consider a revelation that Abrams Trek is and always has been a pure reboot with no allegiance to any prior canon, regardless of Orci’s protestations 4 years ago to the contrary.

Therefore, what started this whole discussion: my prediciton is that there will be no explanation for his appearance change in the forthcoming IDW comic, because there will not be an appearance change.

229. LogicalLeopard - September 17, 2013

228. Curious Cadet – September 17, 2013
OK, I suppose I would agree with that.

In the case of STID, and ST09 for that matter, Abrams helps with this process by movie so quickly you don’t have time to even do this.
*******************

That’s a very good point. As in the case of the Earth fight, I don’t think I noticed the absense of ships until until after the movie. Which is a good tactic, I suppose *L*

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Nevertheless, look how many hoops we’ve had to jump through to even remotely explain Khan’s appearance change well after, in some cases, multiple viewings of the movie.
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Wellllllllllll…..I dunno. I think Khan’s appearance was rejected by most fans not because it didn’t make sense in-universe, but because they objected to the change or “whitewashing” on its face. It’s like the other major debate – the Enterprise going under water. I am still astonished at how many people protested that (other than Scotty, *L*) but I think it was the fact that they just didn’t LIKE it.

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As far as Khan’s appearance being a plot hole, I would say it is only a plot hole in context of Orci’s pontification to the fans regarding QM MWI which supposedly governs this entire reboot. If Kirk were suddenly recast by a black actor in the sequel for some reason with no explanation, then for the fans it would most definitely be a plot hole. General audiences might not even notice.
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Sorry, I haven’t had enough coffee today, what is QM MWI? *L* But see, that’s the difference with this and say, Battlestar Galactica, where white men became white women and black men became Asian females *LOL* Kirk would have NO reason in universe to be recast as a black man. Khan pointedly tells Kirk that a new identity was prepared for him when he was awakened. It’s logical that if he needed a new identity, a new face would go along with that, given the simplicity of doing so. Actually, it’s kind of funny, but….I would think it’d be easier to give a person a new face than a new identity
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For my edification, while I find it mildly amusing to retcon Khan’s appearance in-universe; it’s so convoluted at this point, that I prefer to accept what I consider a revelation that Abrams Trek is and always has been a pure reboot with no allegiance to any prior canon, regardless of Orci’s protestations 4 years ago to the contrary.

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See, that’s the thing though….It’s not a ret-con yet, unless there’s film of Khan crawling out of the cryotube looking like BC. Abrams’ Trek is not a pure reboot, because Spock Prime was present in the first one. And he confirms that he’s from the Prime universe in this one too. Now, it’s a version with some continuity flaws, mind you, but it’s still a continuation (in alternate reality) of the first. I don’t expect for Trek writers to do as much research as we do. When you slave yourself to details that much, you can end up with a less interesting, but technically perfect movie. Besides, all of the foregoing Trek didn’t slave itself to continuity, and rebooted stuff too. For example, allthough the appearance of the Enterprise in the new movies is hard to explain, the Klingon forehead thing was even HARDER to come up with. That was a plot hole that existed for, what, 20 years? Until DS9 at least addressed it, and ENT closed it up.
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Therefore, what started this whole discussion: my prediciton is that there will be no explanation for his appearance change in the forthcoming IDW comic, because there will not be an appearance change.

******************************

I’m going to take that bet. I think they will. But whether they do or don’t, it’s not canon. Only what occurs on film is canon, and perhaps things from print that make it to the screen. Orci I think retread his earlier canon claim on this website, I believe.

230. Curious Cadet - September 17, 2013

@229 Logical Leopard,
“Abrams’ Trek is not a pure reboot, because Spock Prime was present in the first one. And he confirms that he’s from the Prime universe in this one too. Now, it’s a version with some continuity flaws, mind you, but it’s still a continuation (in alternate reality) of the first. I don’t expect for Trek writers to do as much research as we do”

QM MWI = Quantum Mechanics Many World Theory. Just because Spock Prime is present does not mean that the Abrams’ alternate reality universe stems directly off the Prime universe in which Spock originated in the Cage. Orci has alluded to this a number of times, suggesting that Enterprise might actually have taken place in an alternate universe to TOS, and that’s the universe in which Abrams’ movies take place. Nimoy may be the original Spock, or he may be a Spock from the Enterprise alternate reality, which actually has a different future from that we saw in TOS, TNG, et al. In fact Berman/Braga may have unintentionally rebooted the franchise with their prequel.

As for how much research they do, Orci said they did extensive research, including using Memory-Alpha extensively, not to mention the number of producers who claim to be hard core fans. So I cannot dismiss their lack of attention to detail in this matter, especially since it is they who drew the whole alternate reality line in the sand and made it the issue it has become. I will stick to my opinion that Abrams Trek was always meant to be a complete reboot and the casting of Cumberbatch is proof positive, regardless of the producer’s stated intentions. And considering that, I don’t have to worry about reconciling Abrams’ films with canon.

——————————-
“Kirk would have NO reason in universe to be recast as a black man. Khan pointedly tells Kirk that a new identity was prepared for him when he was awakened.”

But you can’t really say this. As far as I recall, it was never said that Khan was a field agent. Anything beyond designing starships and weapons and generally helping Marcus devolve Starfleet into a more primal fighting machine, is pure speculation. I feel now you are equivocating between several positions. If Khan adopted the persona of Harrison for a mission and retained the look and accent out of habit; then that is a different thing than just having his identity concealed to prevent casual identification as Khan (which does not require a complete ethnicity or accent change), about which you are also assuming means an appearance change not expressly stated. So the threads of this quilt are quite delicate, and pulling on any of them starts to unravel the whole thing. A Black Kirk can be explained in the same vague way, something as simple as his previous conversion into a Romulan to steal the cloaking device, and just hasn’t had time to convert back or became comfortable with it, as you suggest to explain Khan. I mean that’s what we’re suggesting here … a major character’s original appearance completely altered off-camera, with vague reference as to why because its not germane to the plot of the current film. It’s interesting to think what they might do if something happened to Pine (god-forbid) and they had to replace him for the sequel. Would they pull a Bewitched and just ignore it? Or would they offer some explanation for the appearance change?

——————————–
“I’m going to take that bet. I think they will. But whether they do or don’t, it’s not canon. ”

Well, the last word from Orci I believe is that he considers the comics canon until contradicted on film. And even there they have been clever. Mike Johnson explained how STID does not contradict the IDW comic in Kirk’s claim that he has not lost any crew for instance, despite the fact numerous losses occurred. So however Khan is depicted in the comic it is most likely the only ‘canon’ that will exist — since you point out, it’s a low-priority matter with respect to the films. So we shall see whether Orci betrays his position on Khan with a Montalban to Cumberbatch makeover depiction merely to appease the hardcore fans.

231. Curious Cadet - September 17, 2013

Here’s something interesting: it looks like Khan #3 will be out in December, so the Khan series should be released in October. Cumberbatch is pictured as Khan on the first three covers, with the third looking like the launch of the Botany Bay. That means it’s likely the first 3 comics are going to be about Khan’s origins and the Eugenics wars.

If that’s true, then unless they are just trying to keep the transformation secret, it means Khan will be portrayed as Cumberbatch for the entire thing. Otherwise, people will be looking at Montalban for half of the 6 issue series, with the odd juxtaposition of Cumberbatch on the cover and Montalban inside.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2013/09/december-idw-publishing-trek-comics-2/

Looks like we’ll know for sure in a couple of weeks.

232. Logicalleopard - September 17, 2013

230. Curious Cadet – September 17, 2013

QM MWI = Quantum Mechanics Many World Theory. Just because Spock Prime is present does not mean that the Abrams’ alternate reality universe stems directly off the Prime universe in which Spock originated in the Cage.
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Gotcha. This is true. Either way, it remains an animal of its own.
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As for how much research they do, Orci said they did extensive research, including using Memory-Alpha extensively, not to mention the number of producers who claim to be hard core fans. So I cannot dismiss their lack of attention to detail in this matter, especially since it is they who drew the whole alternate reality line in the sand and made it the issue it has become. I will stick to my opinion that Abrams Trek was always meant to be a complete reboot and the casting of Cumberbatch is proof positive, regardless of the producer’s stated intentions. And considering that, I don’t have to worry about reconciling Abrams’ films with canon.
*******************************************

Well, I wasn’t disparaging their research, I’m just saying that Abrams & Co don’t have the same research capabilities that a fully loaded bulletin board like this has. Why? Because although they look at Memory Alpha, and have some fans, alleged or otherwise, on message boards there is always someone that can pull something out of their hat and say, “Wait….but what about this, which happened here?” Someone on a message board could have JUST watched a particular episode that pertains to an issue last night. Call it “nerdsourcing” if you want. We all have incomplete Trek knowledge, but with a message board, someone probably remembers a minor detail that others might not have. Due to the secrecy involved in the Trek projects, they don’t have the luxury of running a script past 50-100 odd Trekkers to mistake-proof it. That’s all I was saying.

——————————

But you can’t really say this. As far as I recall, it was never said that Khan was a field agent. Anything beyond designing starships and weapons and generally helping Marcus devolve Starfleet into a more primal fighting machine, is pure speculation. I feel now you are equivocating between several positions. If Khan adopted the persona of Harrison for a mission and retained the look and accent out of habit; then that is a different thing than just having his identity concealed to prevent casual identification as Khan (which does not require a complete ethnicity or accent change), about which you are also assuming means an appearance change not expressly stated.
___________________________________________

So here are the exact lines from the movie:

Kirk: I looked up John Harrison. Until a year ago, he didn’t exist.

Khan: John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was awoken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause. A smokescreen to conceal my true identity. My name….is…Khan.

Khan also says later: Alexander Marcus needed to respond to a uncivilized threat in a civilized time, and for that, he needed a warrior’s mind. My mind. To design weapons and warships. (Spock Interchange) Marcus used me to design weapons. To help him realize his vision of a militarized Starfleet. He sent you to use those weapons. To fire my torpedoes on an unsuspecting planet. And then he purposely crippled your ship, etc, etc.

So from that last paragraph, you’re absolutely right. He was used to design weapons and starships. Is it pure speculation to suggest otherwise? Sure, I freely admit that, if we take Khan’s account to be reliable.

But take a look at that first part again, the Khan reveal. Marcus creates a fiction the moment he awakens Khan. Why? If he’s sitting in a Section 8 bunker, there’s no reason to make an identity for him. He could be sitting next to a time captured Albert Einstein, Lord Nelson, Zephram Cocrane, etc, designing weapons and drinking Starbucks, and no one would be the wiser. The very fact that he MADE a secret identity, like I said, if Khan can be trusted, is indicative that he had SOME reason for it. Whether this means that he was a field agent, or whether it meant that he needed to be free to walk among Starfleet personnel who were not privy to top secret information, that’s up to anyone’s guess, but the fact an identity was created seems to mean that he needed one. And if he needs an identity, the plastic surgery option kicks in to complete the identity. It could be possible that he was given a British identity because he was held at the Section 31 facility in London, and either needed to have access, or was granted access to the world outside of the Kelvin Archive building. THATS speculation, as well as the plastic surgery itself, but I think it’s GOOD speculation and enough to satisfactory explain the change to anyone viewing, I would think.

Remember, the reason I went down this line in the first place is because I said as long as I can think for less than two minutes and come up with a reasonable explanation for something not explained on film, I’m fine, and I don’t consider it a plothole.
***********************************************************************************

So the threads of this quilt are quite delicate, and pulling on any of them starts to unravel the whole thing. A Black Kirk can be explained in the same vague way, something as simple as his previous conversion into a Romulan to steal the cloaking device, and just hasn’t had time to convert back or became comfortable with it, as you suggest to explain Khan. I mean that’s what we’re suggesting here … a major character’s original appearance completely altered off-camera, with vague reference as to why because its not germane to the plot of the current film. It’s interesting to think what they might do if something happened to Pine (god-forbid) and they had to replace him for the sequel. Would they pull a Bewitched and just ignore it? Or would they offer some explanation for the appearance change?
*************************

I don’t think it’s unraveling at all. Like I said, Khan alluded to the fact that he was given a new identity in the film. He didn’t say what all went into that, although BC’s acting could pull off such droll dialogue (First Admiral Marcus forged a new birth certificate for me. John Harrison, born in Clacton-on-Sea, Kent, Essex, England. Father: George Harrison. Alexander Marcus is such a Beatles fan. Have you heard of the Beatles, Kirk? I had Sir Paul McCartney flown to Mumbai to play at my 40th birthday celebration. We recreated the rest of the group with holograms.)

Er…back to the point. Khan alluded to the fact that he was given a new identity. It’s not unreasonable to think that a change in appearance went with the new identity. However, if Kirk is played by a black man throughout the whole movie, without any explanation or allusion to what might have happened, that’s a totally different situation. However, if circumstances forced the role of Kirk to be played by a different actor, I don’t think they would say anything at all,they’d pull a Darren. Or should I say pull a Saavik? As long as the actor is reasonably similar, it is no problem.

233. Logicalleopard - September 17, 2013

231. Curious Cadet – September 17, 2013

Here’s something interesting: it looks like Khan #3 will be out in December, so the Khan series should be released in October. Cumberbatch is pictured as Khan on the first three covers, with the third looking like the launch of the Botany Bay. That means it’s likely the first 3 comics are going to be about Khan’s origins and the Eugenics wars.
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Oooh….thanks for bringing this to my attention! I’ll keep my eyes open for the previews, and try to take a peek at a collected version later. I’m a cheapskate, and I wait until my library buys the collected versions before I read these. I remember when comics were a buck *L* I can’t pay four bucks unless I REALLY need to see something.

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If that’s true, then unless they are just trying to keep the transformation secret, it means Khan will be portrayed as Cumberbatch for the entire thing. Otherwise, people will be looking at Montalban for half of the 6 issue series, with the odd juxtaposition of Cumberbatch on the cover and Montalban inside.
************************************

Well, that’s the thing, comic book covers are notoriously inaccurate as to the story inside of them. This is for a few reasons, chief of which is the fact that the cover artist is not usually the story artist, and thus is not in regular communication with the writer and story artist as to what’s inside. I think they’re just given a brief idea of what they need to convey. As for Star Trek, a lot of these covers are painted I believe, and don’t reflect the art inside of the book, or the story. They’re just made to look pretty so people will buy the book. And actually,that’s the purpose for ALL comic covers. So putting BC on the cover is less about preserving a secret and more about pushing books. BC will sell more books than Montalbon, because the movie goer and casual/non Trek fan may pick it up and say, “Oohh…there’s that guy from the movie. I think I’ll give this a try. They may look at Montalbon and not know who he is, or not wish to read it because it’s the “old Khan,” maybe thinking “old knowledge” is needed to appreciate the book. Old fans will pick up the book regardless of who is on the cover, page through it, and find old-Khan inside, I believe.

Like I said, I’m betting it’s MontalKhan inside of the first few books.They’ve read the reactions and criticisms. To completely retcon his appearance, especially given his name, is rather absurd. It could be done….maybe to suggest that he was the REAL Khan Noonien Singh, playing the man behind the curtain to the MontalKhan we know – who is actually a stand in for him. But like I said, that’s more farfetched than the solution that I think is pretty obvious – plastic surgery. I’d bet eight trillion non-existent quatloos on that.

I hope we see very soon. Like you said, it should be October at the latest. I hope it’s like other comic books, and ships a month earlier than the date on the cover.

234. Curious Cadet - September 17, 2013

@232 Logical Leopard,
“but the fact an identity was created seems to mean that he needed one. And if he needs an identity, the plastic surgery option kicks in to complete the identity. ”

All I will say about that is everybody needs an identity, especially after a 9/11 event. Marcus couldn’t very well show up with a guy who doesn’t exist and just get everybody at Starfleet to ignore the fact he doesn’t have any credentials, especially since its the very thing a guy like Marcus would be pushing for — know who everybody and everything is, monitor all their correspondence, track their movements. If Marcus said, “hey don’t worry about this guy, he’s with me”, somebody would start investigating Marcus pretty quick.

The appearance alteration only matters if there’s a chance Khan could be identified, and along with that, entire convolutions of logic, based on what we got. Speculation must enter into this to explain it, otherwise it makes no sense.

On the other hand, there’s plenty of stuff in STID that makes no sense that they intended to satisfy some plot development, so anything’s possible.

Only a couple of weeks to see what they do with this little hot potato.

Oh, and BTW, I fully intended “black Kirk” would have a line of dialogue that suggested he changed his identity for some purpose without going into details, like “well Jim, you wouldn’t have had to change your identity to infiltrate that encampment for the last 6 months if you had just let Scotty do his job in the first place”. It’s really the same thing as what you are proposing — a character changed his identity for some purpose, and for whatever reason did not change back after the pretense could be dropped, leaving the audience to speculate the details.

235. LogicalLeopard - September 18, 2013

@232 Logical Leopard,

All I will say about that is everybody needs an identity, especially after a 9/11 event. Marcus couldn’t very well show up with a guy who doesn’t exist and just get everybody at Starfleet to ignore the fact he doesn’t have any credentials, especially since its the very thing a guy like Marcus would be pushing for — know who everybody and everything is, monitor all their correspondence, track their movements. If Marcus said, “hey don’t worry about this guy, he’s with me”, somebody would start investigating Marcus pretty quick.
****************************

But like I said, if Khan didn’t leave Section 31 headquarters, he wouldn’t need an identity. He would be working with a group of secret agents that know how to keep things secret. And they know how to not ask questions? If Khan ever has to deal with a Section 31 agent who didn’t have clearance for some reason, Marcus could just say, “Work with this person. You don’t need to know who he is, that information is classifiied.”

So obviously, Khan needed to interact with people outside of Section 31 in STARFLEET (which is why he was given a Starfleet identity) and/or people in the general public.
*******************************

The appearance alteration only matters if there’s a chance Khan could be identified, and along with that, entire convolutions of logic, based on what we got. Speculation must enter into this to explain it, otherwise it makes no sense.
*******************************
Well, like I said, the whole thing is speculation. Anything that’s not expressly stated is speculation. But this is decent, logical, speculation. Khan is a historical figure. There are pictures of what he looks like on file. Starfleet employs historians. Historians are likely to be familiar with Earth history, and Khan. And the fact that many augments were unaccounted for. It’s an OFF chance, granted, but there’s a chance.

But lets backtrack. Khan was given a specific identity, with the name John Harrison. Not to suggest that a person of Indian descent wouldn’t have that name, but why not Vikram Patel? The name almost suggests that they wanted to totally distance themselves from Khan. And to do that completely, a change in features would help.
*********************************************

On the other hand, there’s plenty of stuff in STID that makes no sense that they intended to satisfy some plot development, so anything’s possible.

Only a couple of weeks to see what they do with this little hot potato.

*******************************

And that’s the point *LOL* There are many things that don’t make sense, but if you can make sense of it with some insightful speculation, it’s not much of a problem. The Klingon head thing was something that we all just had to accept, without any sort of logical explanation. People guessed that there were two races, people guessed that the TOS Klingons were humans raised by Klingons to present a false face to humans, but I’m pretty sure no one guessed that it was the result of correcting a genetic engineering experiment that got caught up with a flu virus *LOL* That’s what you call a gigantic hole. That’s what we should worry about, not little holes that you can plug rather easily, in my opinion.

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Oh, and BTW, I fully intended “black Kirk” would have a line of dialogue that suggested he changed his identity for some purpose without going into details, like “well Jim, you wouldn’t have had to change your identity to infiltrate that encampment for the last 6 months if you had just let Scotty do his job in the first place”. It’s really the same thing as what you are proposing — a character changed his identity for some purpose, and for whatever reason did not change back after the pretense could be dropped, leaving the audience to speculate the details.

*****************************************

Then that would be fine, in that case. Well, maybe people wouldn’t receive it well, but the talk of a “Black Kirk” would get tons of publicity *LOL* But the thing is, in story, Khan may not have had time to change back, or it may not have been in his best interests. He appeared to have free reign in London at the beginning of the movie, so I’m assuming that he was probably still “on duty” with Section 31. So if he couldn’t change it then, he probably didn’t have the time to change it later. He’s got, what, 24 hours between the bombing and his assault on SFHQ? Then he’s on Qo’noS. Then he’s in custody. Then he’s fighting, Then he’s in custody again at the end of the movie.

Now heeeeerrreesss the tricky part, where the “false face” would no longer hold up. If they decide at some point to do another movie involving Khan, they need to make sure that he doesn’t have any time or access to get his “first face” back. Maybe the augments are all shipped to a safe location, maybe a secure facility on Ceti Alpha IV. Something goes wrong, they awaken, someone awakens them, what have you, and they start setting their plans in motion and neglect to change him back. That’s more problematic, because as you humorously mentioned before, that’s REALLY tough to explain to the other augments. *LOL* It can be done, if they all wake up together and notice that everyone is present but Khan, and realize that Khan is who he says he is after he supplies information that only they would know.

But that whole scenario is years out and uncertain. For one, you don’t know if they’ll ever touch Khan again. Judging by all the complaints that they have gotten from fans, it doesn’t serve a point to serve up something old for the fans. And the general public may have liked BC’s performance, but I didn’t hear many cries for a Wrath of Khan remake. Plus, BC’s star is rising so meteorically, it’s a question if he would even WANT to go back to it. Of course, they could just get an Indian actor at that time to play Khan, but if it was bad enough to put BC’s stunning performance against RM’s performance, and have people reject it because they liked the original, why put a new actor against both RM AND BC?

I think when they closed the door on the augments in the film, they closed it for good. The reaction this movie got from many fans (or at least the loudest ones) proves that you CAN’T do things just because you think it’s going to please fans, because chances are it wont. People have complained about the militarization of Star Trek for years, especially given DS9. But how many comments do we read about what a good job this movie did in restablishing the explorer concept? I didn’t see many myself. I heard a lot of “All this is shooting and explosions” though.

236. TUP - September 18, 2013

On first viewing I assumed Spock’s mind-meld of Pike was to ease his suffering. I was actually disappointed when it seemed to be some sort of probe into the human condition on Spock’s behalf. I suppose it could be both.

It sort of explained why Spock was cold to Uhura or cold about death and risk in general – he wasn’t devoid of emotion, just the opposite.

But frankly, the Spock/Uhura romance has jumped the shark. It needs to go.

I also think they missed a great opportunity with Pike. I accept he had to die for Kirk to truly stand on his own. But he should have been the one dying at the end. You’d get twice the homage that way (WOK and Pike being irradiated nearly to death in the Prime universe). It would have been the example Kirk needed.

Ofcourse it would have screwed up the Khan/Spock fist fight which I liked very much. A Kirk/Khan fist fight wouldn’t have worked since Kirk couldn’t match Khan physicially.

But ultimately, Pike should have gone out in a blaze of glory, not laying on a conference room floor. Imagine that scene with a badely injured Pike, grabbing a rifle off a dead security office, fighting his way back to his feet and blasting back at Khan, allowing others to escape knowing all the while he was going to die.

237. Curious Cadet - September 18, 2013

@235. LogicalLeopard,
“if Khan didn’t leave Section 31 headquarters, he wouldn’t need an identity…If Khan ever has to deal with a Section 31 agent who didn’t have clearance for some reason, Marcus could just say, “Work with this person. You don’t need to know who he is, that information is classifiied.”

And then all it takes is one James Snowden to blow the lid off the whole thing. That one kid who doesnt have clearance and figures out who he is. That’s why giving him an “official” identity is important even if he’s only sequestered securely at Section 31. Further, considering how ‘soft’ we are told Starfleet is and how much Marcus needs a 300 year old criminal for advice on how to be tough, there is no gurantee that Section 31 is as secret as we understand such organizations today. Even within Section 31 there may be no such thing as people without identities. A mysterious guy sequestered away in a dark room churning out weapon and starship designs might be completely foreign concept for Section 31 and raise a number of questions Marcus didn’t want to deal with.

This was one of the truly stupid things about STID. Khan should have never been given free run of Starfleet as was implied by the film. How could he possibly be lurking around a hospital without someone in section 31 knowing exactly where he was? Hard to believe Marcus was that stupid, which is why I prefer to see everything Khan did as acting on the orders of Marcus. Yet another reason to establish an ID for Khan early on, as Marcus never knows what situations he may need to insert Khan into. Marcus is a smart military man who is prepared for anything.

But here’s the thing … The IDW comic will establish ‘canon’ for all practical purposes until the next movie comes along that addresses Khan. It will lock in Khan’s appearance pre-STID, and it will presumably confirm his identity as the same Khan from Space Seed, whether or not his appearance is altered. This is the only tool Orci has at his disposal to solidify his intent. But as you point out, it will not be canon.

And thus the opportunity exists that regardless how the comic deals with Khan’s appearance that Harrison never really was Khan Noonien Singh, but merely represented himself thusly to protect his leader, or any number of other valid reasons. And despite those who think this would not make any sense, I think it would make for a very interesting twist in a follow up film that actually made Khan and his life and goals the point of the story, not merely a catalyst to get Kirk irradiated to death and magically revived. Especially a film in which you allude Cumberbatch may not be available to reprise his role.

238. LogicalLeopard - September 18, 2013

And then all it takes is one James Snowden to blow the lid off the whole thing. That one kid who doesnt have clearance and figures out who he is. That’s why giving him an “official” identity is important even if he’s only sequestered securely at Section 31. Further, considering how ‘soft’ we are told Starfleet is and how much Marcus needs a 300 year old criminal for advice on how to be tough, there is no gurantee that Section 31 is as secret as we understand such organizations today. Even within Section 31 there may be no such thing as people without identities. A mysterious guy sequestered away in a dark room churning out weapon and starship designs might be completely foreign concept for Section 31 and raise a number of questions Marcus didn’t want to deal with.

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Judging by what we’ve seen of Section 31 in previous episodes, there’s not much chance there are any Snowdens present. This is an agency that the majority of Starfleet doesn’t know about it, and it’s been in existence for hundreds of years, by DS9 time. They’re pretty good at keeping a secret. And regardless, there are probably dozens of Section 31 officers who know exactly who Khan is, because they were there when he was unfrozen, trained, etc. Why the identity amongst them?

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This was one of the truly stupid things about STID. Khan should have never been given free run of Starfleet as was implied by the film. How could he possibly be lurking around a hospital without someone in section 31 knowing exactly where he was? Hard to believe Marcus was that stupid, which is why I prefer to see everything Khan did as acting on the orders of Marcus. Yet another reason to establish an ID for Khan early on, as Marcus never knows what situations he may need to insert Khan into. Marcus is a smart military man who is prepared for anything.

***************************

Hence the ID AND the speculated appearance change. Be prepared for anything. As far as Marcus’s stupidity, I’m with you. I’d maybe unfreeze Hitler, but I”m not unfreezing Hitler if he’s got the mind of Albert Einstein and the fighting abitlity of Bruce Lee, no matter HOW many family popsicles I have. If I unfreeze you, and you’re smart enough to not only learn about starship technology in less than a year, but design BETTER starships than people who have been designing them for 20-30 years, I think you can also figure out a plan to kill me and get your family back.

But it probably boils down to hubris. Maybe Marcus was so obsessed with winning his war, he thought Khan’d be interested in saving the human race from annihilation, and he could just put a phaser pulse in his head when the job was done. He was wrong.

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And thus the opportunity exists that regardless how the comic deals with Khan’s appearance that Harrison never really was Khan Noonien Singh, but merely represented himself thusly to protect his leader, or any number of other valid reasons. And despite those who think this would not make any sense, I think it would make for a very interesting twist in a follow up film that actually made Khan and his life and goals the point of the story, not merely a catalyst to get Kirk irradiated to death and magically revived. Especially a film in which you allude Cumberbatch may not be available to reprise his role.

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I much prefer the straightforward answer, but you’re right, it’d be an interesting twist. And I don’t think Khan just was merely a catalyst to save Kirk’s life, I think he fit perfectly into the savagery of war concept, portraying how a war machine eventually begins to eat at itself and become uncontrollable. Khan is a chemical weapon. He’s a drone strike. He’s every dirty thing about war personified. And this film was about overcoming war and beating the swords into plowshares.

239. TUP - September 18, 2013

I think that over-thinks the writer’s intent. I just dont see that.

I dont think the gaping plot holes occured to the writers unfortunately. I think they thought we’d eat it up because it’s Khan and BC’s performance was so good. But as one poster stated, his performance was almost too chewey. First time I saw it, I loved it. Upon successive viewings, I find it cartoony.

As over the top as Montalban could be, I believed his portrayal. And was the point. He was the leader not only because he was the smartest, but because he was a cult leader (shown in how easily he turned whatshername who became his wife). BC’s portrayal was an actor acting. RM’s portrayal was “real”.

And Im getting impatient with Kirk’s development. I know he’s young Kirk but lets get on with it. Shatner’s Kirk was far more interesting because those rare moments when he showed vulnerability were so great. Pine’s Kirk is a self-conscious brawns-before-brains, wuss.

240. LogicalLeopard - September 18, 2013

239. TUP – September 18, 2013

As for the acting, it’s all a matter of opinion. I think believability is subject to the beholder, and also, it’s affected by our willingness to accept the actor as well. I started watching Sherlock before I watched this movie, and I loved it, so obviously that affected my reception of BC. But so does RM. No matter how good of an actor BC is, he’s still not RM – I say that not in terms of acting, I’m just saying that since RM was the first, there’s a built in hurdle to accepting him in the role. And that’s the same with all of the actors, actually.

As far as Kirk’s development, I’m pretty sure he’s going to be much more fully developed as it were in the next movie. He learned a lot of hard lessons in this one, and I think he’s progressed to the point where they’ve told the story they had to tell. Kirk couldn’t be fully developed in this movie – he was a screw up, did one thing, admittedly a HUGE thing in saving Earth, and got jumped up to captain. You can’t make a part two without dealing with the ramificaitons of that. This movie did a brilliant job with that. As far as vulnerability, as I’ve said before, you don’t get much more vulnerable then “‘I’m sorry” on the bridge. That’s a classic.

I like this version of Kirk. It’s been a very interesting ride. Kirk is accessable, most people understand what it’s like to waste your potential or live below your destiny. Either they’ve done it, or seen someone who did it. This Kirk is all of Kirk’s smarts and boldness with none of his experience. And what happens with smarts and boldness. Like Pike said, sooner or later, you’ll get everyone under your command killed. It played out perfectly.

241. Keachick - September 21, 2013

“But they had a picture. And if they had a picture, he’d be instantly recognizable to SOMEONE.”

How do you know there was a picture identifying this man as being Khan – Khan Noonien Singh, to be precise? There was no mention of such in the film, only Spock’s question about a man who calls himself Khan to prime Spock. Documentation was fragmented or more likely, when Marcus found the sleeper ship, he destroyed much or all of what records the ship may have contained.

I do not know what backstory the IDW comics will give about this Harrison/Khan, but it does seem that, according to an Orci tweet (I believe), it was no coincidence that only one person, Spock prime, spoke of a Khan Noonien Singh, the man he knew.

I could be wrong, but I still maintain that this man is neither Khan Noonien Singh nor necessarily John Harrison, which he claims is a name Marcus gave him…One explanation that my better half came up with is that many of the 73 crew may have decided to take the same name, Khan, as in Princes of their own domain, with this white English man, ruling the English speaking world…

242. Keachick - September 21, 2013

#236 – “But ultimately, Pike should have gone out in a blaze of glory, not laying on a conference room floor.”

Not this rubbish again. People keep saying the same kind of thing about how prime Kirk died. Pike died because he was mortally wounded. This is just hubris to suggest that there is a right or wrong way for people we see as heroes to die, like prime Kirk or Pike. At the time of their deaths, neither committed crimes against any other and in Kirk’s case, he helped prevent the destruction of a star and its dependent planets.

Their LIVES are the blaze of glory!

243. Keachick - September 21, 2013

I see there has been discussion about the Caitian females. Actually, neither the names nor race was mentioned in the film at all. In an article posted here which gave details of the 9 minute 3D trailer, they were referred to as cat-women – that’s all.

I made a comment that they might be Caitian females (ref. TAS)….Ooops However, when people finally saw the scene, the two female did not look much like the TAS Caitians, apart from the long tails similar to those seen on the large earth cats. Whether it was my inference, which set off a chain reaction of everybody referring to them (sight unseen by most) as Caitians, I don’t know. But it does seem that Damon Lindelof did confirm that the two cat-women were supposed to be Caitians.

As for Kirk being involved in a full-on relationship, well, TOS has him being with one or two women for several months, up to a year or more. Carol Marcus did not conceive David as a result of some casual affair. There was more to it. Kirk, at this time, had little if anything of any real command experience.

I have always maintained that Kirk needs to develop a healthy, intimate relationship with a female, perhaps not totally exclusive, and if this results in the patter of tiny feet, then so be it. Clearly, both Kirks are complex people. Prime Kirk did not fully acknowledge that Starfleet and the Enterprise could not provide everything and he became rather bitter and lonely in his older age.

However, it does not have to be this way for this alt. Kirk. Whether or not it will be this Carol Marcus who is right for him, not sure. I think she could be something of a bitch in this timeline as well…perhaps he may *enjoy* these game playing types but hopefully he may have an epiphany of sorts and gain some genuine insight…

244. Curious Cadet - September 22, 2013

Here’s one I just noticed: The hexagonal tiles outside the Niburu ceremonial building as Kirk and McCoy are exiting resemble the tiles around the V’Ger nerve center at the end of TMP.

245. TUP - September 23, 2013

Creatively, Orci et al can kill Pike any way they choose. But it stood out to me that it was a chump’s death. I realise in life, sometimes good people, even heroes die in less than spectacular fashion. But I was looking for something that specifically harkened back to Pike’s fate in the Prime universe – that of a hero, knowingly sacrificing himself for others.

The fact Kirk immediately sprung into action while everyone else stood there or laid there annoyed me. I wanted Pike to stand his ground. In essence, drawing the comparison between Pike and Kirk, the mentor/protege, father/son relationship with both men immediately springing into action in extraordinarily heroic manners.

In Kirk’s case, it was in a tactical manner. In Pike’s, it should have been grabbing a phase rifle and standing his ground. It would have been the opposite of what one might expect and thus showed us a different depth to their characters.

As for Kirk Prime’s death – his death was great, especially Shatner’s “oh my”. It was everything else about that movie that killed it. And a valuable lesson for Orci – Trekkers will accept a lot, even some plot holes,but when you can fly a starship through those plot holes, we will reject it.

246. Keachick - September 25, 2013

#245 – How can a person “stand their ground” if they have been mortally wounded?

Sorry, but the attitude expressed here and echoed by many others over other heroes’ deaths disgusts me. You have completely devalued who Pike was. It makes me sick.

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