UPDATED: Trek 3 writer speaks about Trek for the first time – VIDEO | TrekMovie.com
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UPDATED: Trek 3 writer speaks about Trek for the first time – VIDEO March 16, 2014

by Matt Wright , Filed under: ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

JD Payne, half of the new writing duo working with Roberto Orci on the 3rd Trek movie, spoke with two Latter-day Saint focused publications about being a life-long Trekkie, his faith as a Mormon, and working with Bad Robot and his long time friend and writing partner Patrick McKay. Click on to keep reading and see a new video interview with him.

jd-payne-02

From LDS Living:

On working with Bad Robot and getting the call to work on Trek 3:

“I’ve done a few projects with JJ Abrams’ company Bad Robot now,” he explains. “We’ve developed a really solid working relationship.” So solid, in fact, that he and his writing partner made it on the short list, as Payne recalls, “A friend over there came to us and said, ‘So we’ve got a new project to discuss with you guys. It’s very preliminary but. . .’  And we were just sort of waiting for it, and then they said, ‘It’s Star Trek Three.’”

On Trek 3:

A Star Trek fan since 15, for Payne, it was a dream finally come true.

So what’s in store for Star Trek fans? “I can’t really talk about much of what it is,” laughs Payne, though he did share, “At its core, Star Trek has always been about adventure, exploration and wonder, with an optimistic sense of the future, and all its possibilities. It’s a massive playground; we’re so excited to be diving in on it.”

Read the full interview over at LDS Living

From Mormon Artist:

There has been quite a bit written about the fact that the upcoming Star Trek will be your first produced script. However, you are pretty seasoned—how many screenplays have you written in total?

Star Trek will be our ~17th script from the first one we wrote when we were in college; our tenth from the time we got agency representation (though only seven of those have officially been in development at a production company and studio). I’ve read that the industry average is thirteen scripts in development for every one that ends up getting produced. I’m definitely still bullish that several of our other projects will make it to the silver screen, so we’ll see how that ratio ends up working out with our slate.

How did you first become involved with Bad Robot? What was it like to work with J. J. Abrams and the group involved with the film?

We had a great initial general meeting at Bad Robot, after which we pursued a project that came to be known as Boilerplate. From there, things took on a life of their own. We feel like we share a creative sensibility and point of view with J. J. and his team. They’ve been fantastic to work with every step of the way on each of the projects we’ve developed together. It’s a relationship we feel very fortunate to have stumbled into.

I could go into more detail about the nuts and bolts of the collaboration, but I should probably leave it at that. People think Edward Snowden got exiled from the country for the NSA Wikileaks scandal; in actuality, I heard his real crime was leaking a super-secret pizza recipe from the kitchen at Bad Robot’s offices.

Read the full interview on Mormon Artist

UPDATE 3/17/2014

TrekMovie regular Ahmed found a 90-minute interview with JD Payne from a Mormon film festival last month. The first 11 minutes are about the next Trek movie. Payne reveals that his first meeting with Bad Robot about Trek 3 was nearly a year ago in April 2013.

Comments

1. Buzz Cagney - March 16, 2014

A Trek fan since he was 15? So whats that, 18 months or so? :)
Seriously, hopes are high for these new boys.
Do well for us!

2. Corylea - March 16, 2014

I like what Mr. Payne has to say in this interview; some of the best TOS scripts had interesting moral questions, and I’d love to see some actual intellectual content in the new script and not just explosions.

Exploration, a positive future, and a sense of wonder all sound like important parts of what made the original series so compelling. Please, Mr. Payne, don’t let Mr. Abrams talk you into another empty “mystery box” script; give us a script like “The Devil in the Dark” or “Journey to Babel,” one that has those elements that you talked about in this interview.

Oh, and go talk with Leonard Nimoy, if you can. He directed #3 and #4 and understands a lot about making Star Trek movies. Pick his brain all he’ll let you. :-)

3. Beamer - March 16, 2014

@#2 I am more than pleased that they’re finally going back to allegorical storytelling. The new trek can have all the action it wants, but Trek at it’s core is Allegorical and told with universal themes.

4. Ahmed - March 16, 2014

@ 1. Buzz Cagney – March 16, 2014

“A Trek fan since he was 15? So whats that, 18 months or so? :)”

LOL

5. Ahmed - March 16, 2014

@ 2. Corylea – March 16, 2014

“I like what Mr. Payne has to say in this interview; some of the best TOS scripts had interesting moral questions, and I’d love to see some actual intellectual content in the new script and not just explosions. ”

Lets just hope that Bob will allows him to do that.

6. boy - March 16, 2014

Trek 3 should have depth and strong story telling with a lot of character interaction. The film should not have shallowness, superficiality and excessive action like STID.

Take a cue from Gravity.

7. Hat Rick - March 16, 2014

Hmm. Well, the Church of Latter Day Saints has an interesting philosophy of what happens in terms of outer space. Or at least it used to. I looked it up when a certain Presidential candidate ran a few years ago. If you don’t know what the church’s outlook is or was, I’m just gonna let you guys Google it and find out.

I somewhat remember that one or more bigwigs at NASA were also Mormon during NASA’s heyday.

Maybe everyone already knows this LDS / space stuff and I’m just a newbie. If so, sorry about that.

Boldly go!

8. njdss4 - March 16, 2014

Someone with a fair amount of history with Bad Robot makes me think that he’s just a younger version of the writers for the last two Trek movies. I’m still hoping that we’ll get a Trek movie that feels a lot like the most recent Bond film, Skyfall, which was also a 50th anniversary movie, but I doubt it’ll be that good.

9. ziplock9000 - March 16, 2014

“At its core, Star Trek has always been about adventure, exploration and wonder”

This is something JJ never understood or cared about. I wish him the best.

10. smike - March 16, 2014

“At its core, Star Trek has always been about adventure, exploration and wonder, with an optimistic sense of the future, and all its possibilities…”

I REALLY hope this is exactly what Trek 3 is all about… give us strange new worlds to explore and that sense of wonder we’ve been missing from almost all more recent Trek movies… We don’t need another giant super star destroyer or any other kind of doomsday scenario as in the last six movies.

11. Ahmed - March 16, 2014

I think it is time for them to do a proper interview with one of the trade magazines. The two interviews with Mormon sites were conducted a while ago, the first one was on Feb 25 & the second one on March 7, yet we just found out about it this week!

12. DJT - March 16, 2014

I don’t know if these writers are old enough to appreciate TOS. There is a certain cultural momentum behind TOS and ST in general. Perhaps you had to live through the times to appreciate what ST meant to people, relative to the real world.Whatever the case, Bad Robot has dumbed it down. Sure, there is much more action and it has been given relative life, but if I hear the word “torpedo” uttered ever again, I’m sure I will puke. Maybe it’s a sign of the times.

But I know what I like and don’t like. I don’t want to see Bro Kirk or Emo Spock. I don’t want to see relationship Uhura or metaphor McCoy. I want to see and feel the pulse of the original TOS. I also don’t think it’s the current actors fault, because they are very good in other things. I think the fault lies elsewhere and it is not in the stars.

13. Ahmed - March 16, 2014

In other news:

=========================

Chris Pine convicted of drink driving

The judge at Ashburton District Court this morning accepted Pine was remorseful, noting he pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity and had complied with police. However his application for discharge without conviction was declined and he was disqualified from driving for six months. Pine was also ordered to pay $93 in reparations.

The actor, who played Captain James Kirk in two Star Trek reboot blockbusters, was stopped during what police say was a routine drink-driving operation near the mid-Canterbury town of Methven on March 1.

He had been in Canterbury shooting Z for Zachariah, a Hollywood science fiction film set after a nuclear war.

In court this morning, Pine’s lawyer argued a conviction would be “devastating” for Pine’s career, saying it would make it difficult for him to travel for work.

The court heard Pine returned a blood alcohol reading of 113mg to 100ml. He has since made a large donation to CureKids – around four times any fine the court could impose.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Chris-Pine-convicted-of-drink-driving/tabid/418/articleID/336128/Default.aspx

14. Platitude - March 16, 2014

“At its core, Star Trek has always been about adventure, exploration and wonder, with an optimistic sense of the future, and all its possibilities.”

This is a good sign!

15. Ahmed - March 16, 2014

Looks like the writing team feel the pressure of the 50th anniversary!

From the LDS interview:

“The movie is set to come out in 2016—the 50 year anniversary of Star Trek’s initial TV release. With a laugh, Payne says, “So no pressure, right?””

That echo what Bob said in the Shatwatch 2014 article

” 202. boborci – February 21, 2014
Will 50th affect story? Yeah. More pressure;)”

16. Ran - March 16, 2014

Oy Vey…

17. Jerry Modene - March 16, 2014

So what’s this about being too young? I wrote ten ST stories back in the mid-70′s, when I was 17. ;-)

18. Jonboc - March 16, 2014

#3 “@#2 I am more than pleased that they’re finally going back to allegorical storytelling. The new trek can have all the action it wants, but Trek at it’s core is Allegorical and told with universal themes.”

I really don’t know how this myth got started and took root, but no, Star Trek is NOT about allegorical storytelling. It never has been. At its core, it’s about space based, action/adventure and exploring how normal people react and overcome abnormal situations. Were there stories that paralleled modern events?, Yes, but in 79 episodes, they were far and few between. This imaginary standard that people hold the new movies to is just that. JJ’s movies honor the spirit and ideas of TOS just fine. Anyone who thinks otherwise, I can only conclude, needs a refresher course in TOS 101.

The new movies are not based on TNG, nor Voyager, nor Ds9…not Enterprise…the movies are based on TOS. That they retain the spirit of the original series, along with the series’ superb balance of action/adventure, humor and romance is all that is required. Carry on Bob Orci and company. Cant wait to see what you deliver for the 50th anniversay!

19. Vultan - March 16, 2014

We’ve had several Trek movies in a row with an emphasis on revenge, super weapons and people fighting on platforms. A movie about exploration and a central thought-provoking idea, with of course a good dose of action and adventure (far from Earth!), would be a welcome change.

20. CmdrR - March 16, 2014

JD & Patrick (and Bob)…

Welcome to the lions’ den. It won’t take you long to see that Trekkies are — urm — a bit difficult.

Seriously, I truly hope you take full advantage of Trek’s 50th Anniversary year to give us a new story that has ideas, optimism, adventure, and characters. Please don’t just pick the bits that have made money before. Don’t mine laugh lines from past films. Please… Boldly Go into Trek’s NEXT 50 years with something original, fresh, and fun.

Thank you!

21. LongIslandTrekster - March 16, 2014

If anyone doubts the next movie will involve Klingons in a major way I have some swap land to sell you!

Isn’t the more interesting question what happens after the new Star Trek 3?

The real interesting discussion should be the persistent rumors that Seth McFarland is lobbying to bring Star Trek in one form or another back to television.

My gut tells me it will happen and it will be animated. But, I hope that Seth is able to navigate the Paramount / CBS corporate suits to convince them to give it a go for another live action series.

22. Mad Mann - March 16, 2014

Salt Vampire in 2016!

Yeah, I’m totes jelly of these guys. I just hope they don’t mess it up.

23. richpit - March 16, 2014

I understand that you all are using “LDS” as a shortening of “Latter Day Saints”, but I can’t help but think of Star Trek IV. “I think he did a little too much LDS”

24. Vultan - March 16, 2014

#17

I disagree. (And yes, recently around the holidays I watched a TOS marathon.) Even episodes heavy on space battles, like Doomsday Machine and Balance of Terror, have greater things to say than the noise of explosions.

25. Hat Rick - March 16, 2014

Strikes me as a bit much that Pine was convicted given that many other such defendants would have been able to strike a plea deal that would have resulted in a nonconviction for such a charge, which is a relatively serious one. I’m not referring to the monetary aspect of the penalty, which is entirely inconsequential given Pine’s wealth, but the fact of the conviction itself.

I once thought that New Zealand was a progressive jurisdiction. Now it appears otherwise.

What are New Zealand’s policies toward more serious crimes? I doubt it is as harsh as the United States toward violent felonies, for example, and if it is more forgiving of violent felonies, what is it doing bringing down the hammer on Pine for this offense?

I hope that Pine’s lawyer can get this conviction expunged given the passage of time, as it may, indeed, impair his future travel and therefore career possibilities.

26. Hat Rick - March 16, 2014

^^ Referring to plea deals in the United States, not necessarily New Zealand or any other country.

27. Mitchell - March 16, 2014

Our hopes and dreams travel with you JD & Patrick.

28. B Kramer - March 16, 2014

17: “Many of the conflicts and political dimensions of Star Trek represent allegories of contemporary cultural realities. Star Trek: The Original Series addressed issues of the 1960s,[4] just as later spin-offs have reflected issues of their respective decades. Issues depicted in the various series include war and peace, the value of personal loyalty, authoritarianism, imperialism, class warfare, economics, racism, religion, human rights, sexism, feminism, and the role of technology.[5] Roddenberry stated: “[By creating] a new world with new rules, I could make statements about sex, religion, Vietnam, politics, and intercontinental missiles. Indeed, we did make them on Star Trek: we were sending messages and fortunately they all got by the network.”[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek

29. Gary Neumann - March 16, 2014

Tell them to catch cosmos. Amazing show! :-)

30. tom vinelli - March 16, 2014

Nice comments , however we been over this before, in the end it will be an action film once again..hope i’m wrong , but I doubt it

31. StelArian - March 16, 2014

I dont belive people seeking God in Star Trek. I really hope, our new writer keep his faith to himself and not use Trek to send religious messages.

32. Keachick - March 16, 2014

I don’t know if Chris Pine could appeal his conviction or whether it would be worth his while. His lawyer, Marilyn Gilchrist, did seek non-conviction but the Judge denied it.

Given that NZ is looking at dropping the legal limit to .05 instead of what seems to be the present .08 limit, (I thought that the new legislation was already in place), the conviction and disqualification does not seem too undue. Chris Pine’s blood-alcohol reading was 1.13 which is not just a little over the limit but well over. He has not been fined, which the Judge could have also handed out and he is not doing prison time. It was noted that this was his first offence.

I am really sorry to say this but Chris Pine was DRUNK. He should not have been allowed access to keys to any vehicle. He may have thought he was OK and even appeared OK to others, but clearly he was not. He posed a serious danger to himself, his passenger and anyone else who may have been on the same stretch of road that night.

Chris Pine has received a bit of Kiwi style Toughlove and unfortunately, I suspect that it might not be before time. I do wonder how many other times he has done similar, believing himself to be safe/OK. He was lucky but no way OK or safe.

I am thankful that I am not praying for his recovery as he lies (perhaps, seriously) injured in a NZ hospital or worse still, mourning his death. God knows – it really is hard being a *fan* sometimes. He and I are strangers, yet I am weeping at the very thought of what I have just written…:(

I agree with the judgement, given how far over the limit he was.

33. Who cares - March 16, 2014

So I just watched TOS season 3 epsiode “That Which Survives” for the first time in many years, and what do I see, I see another instance of interstellar transporters on top of Assignment: Earth, only this time the entire ship was transported 970 light years, and they hit warp 14 on the way back, 14.1 actually. Granted that was because the engines had been tampered with and the warp reactor was running wild.

So that is like 10 instances of interstellar transporters I have counted now, from throughout the franchise, not counting the reboot movies because I am looking at how many times it was used in the older versions. Some of them are slightly borderline I will admit, I am not sure if transporting Seven of Nine off of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant of the 24th century to the USS Relativity in the Alpha Quadrant of the 29th century, then to Voyager in multiple different time periods and physical locations, from Earth to the Delta Quadrant, should count. I am counting beaming a Romulan commander from a ship in the Alpha Quadrant in the 23rd century through a wormhole to the Voyager in the Delta Quadrant 24th century.

I love this franchise.

34. Keachick - March 16, 2014

#25 – Well, NZ has no Death Penalty. We threw that out in 1959.

I do not know what the various penalties can be, depending on the crime committed. Obviously, people who commit violent crime receive a prison sentence, which can vary…

A DUI causing injury will get you prison time, as well as loss of licence. Obviously, the penalty increases if your DUI driving causes death.

I do not think that plea bargaining is as common here as it appears to be in the US. Basically, the Ashburton District Court could not care less who Chris Pine was (celebrity or other status) or how wealthy he might be – he drove whilst drunk so he loses his right to drive for period of time – in this case, six months. The Judge said that he would be treated like any other offender charged with the same crime, ie Justice is blind.

35. Son of Jello - March 16, 2014

wouldn’t it be a better idea if he wrote a B.S.G. script it seems it would be more up is alley and fitting the storytelling format.

36. Son of Jello - March 17, 2014

If you do some research on white bead and the option for good for you bred that has substance. You will find your answer to why J.J.A. has shown that he lacks and never will have the depth to deliver on a genuine ST script. As much as I may have supported what J.J.A. Was trying to do with ST. Abrams is the guy with the sign demanding the 99c white bread and retaliating against a better more dense and full filling bread as there is no profit in trying to open people up to something new.

Look back on J.J.A.s work and you can seen that the theme running thru all his work is No substance, No depth, No real respect for the Audience rinse and repeat. Just a man who seems to have got a job (SW7) that is going to expose him as the manufacturer of white bread that went stale when we reached adulthood J.J.A.s method is to treat us like children who are startled by a cheep light show (a torch/flash lite) and ideas are so beyond recycled even the words spoken in his movies are looking for another agent that gets them a movie where they can flex there meaning and deliver on engaging the audience.

Its the bottom line and not the movie that is important its the cash that it can spew forth into the lazy hands of ST current custodians that write the script and they know that all you have to do is deliver 99c bread no one will complain about anything or be full filled wiser or entertained

Woe is us who have to explain to ourselvs that it wasen’t all that bad at least it wasen’t ST5. Its been 2 moves ditch the current people they haven’t and cannot deliver on a script of any worth. When J.J. A. F.U. SW7 there will be a coming together of fans of 2 very significant franchise who are really going to want an answer as to Why is J.J.A. getting away with delivering uninteresting unworthy boring B.S. that has the substance of a fart in an open jar.

We choked down Lucas 1-3 but Abrams ain’t Lucas and ST fans know whats coming down the script sewer for SW7. Sorry SW fans we really feel for you we will be there for you when it is over.

37. Geriatricfool - March 17, 2014

@18, Jonbloc, the allegories were no myth, they were an essential ingredient of TOS. Corylea, I too am hoping for a strong and original storyline, and please, not just explosions. However, I don’t feel hopeful. I’ll give number 3 a go, but may have to retreat to the glory days of the 79 episodes and 6 films

38. Son of Jello - March 17, 2014

13. Ahmed
Its a pitty that actors don’t have the balls to take it like a common person. Actors don’t really ad to any function of society as the court case shows they don’t live in a world that any of us would recognise ei we go to prison for breaking the law. The judge gets a sob story from a pretty below average actor (have you seen another movie he’s in just to see C.P acting. No I didn’t think so). Stick the drunk driver in jail and let there be truth in Justice.

But the poor dear might find it difficult to go to work…………… People meet their death at the hands of drunks in cars. C.P. needs to man up and take what is due him like a drunk black working poor person would have to without question if they were in C.P. position.

39. moonwatcher - March 17, 2014

This might be the wrong place to ask this but….any word on the ongoing possibility that Paramount might someday pony up and release a Blu-Ray version of Star Trek: The Motion Picture -The Directors Cut? Or do they see Blu-Ray as dying format with no return on investment? As they would have to render all those new effects in HD. I saw the original HD version streaming on Netflix the other day and the visuals never looked better, and with my internet speed, I’m sure that was not much more than 720. I can only imagine what they would look like in 1080p! I might be in the minority here, but I think this film holds up better then most of the Trek films, and the STTMP -Directors Cut DVD release was a vast improvement. Come on Paramount….make my day…go Blu-Ray!!!

40. Son of Jello - March 17, 2014

38. moonwatcher

Sorry moonwatcher there is no profit in rewarding the audience with entertainment (even if it is just visual enhancement) as the recent STITD dvd/blueray releases have shown us. Its not about delivering a product but milking the audience for extra cash for content that was going in the bin anyway. And how many different distributors had a piece of this content and another having another piece of content.ST may be thought of as a franchise but the truth is moonwatcher you like ST are a commodity to be managed for profit and gain. And at the moment what you want ain’t worth Jack right now.

Its a bit sad you seem like a reasonable person with a reasonable request. Pity your not Cris Pine you could have said it was to hard for you to go to work and someone would have bought you a mint condition one of a kind STTMP remastered Bluray and a couple of hookers to your house.

41. Son of Jello - March 17, 2014

12. DJT

“Perhaps you had to live through the times to appreciate what ST meant to people, relative to the real world”

How hysterical an American from the late 60s referring to the real world. Is this the world that to quote Khan (the kick ass Kirk Douglass from Spartacus style Khan from the1982 ST)

Admiral? He didn’t tell you how
Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into
exile on this barren sand heap with
only the contents of these cargo bays
to sustain us?

CHEKOV
You lie! On Ceti Alpha V there was
life, a fair chance to –

KHAN
This is Ceti Alpha V! Ceti Alpha VI
exploded six months after we were
left here. The shock shifted the
orbit of this planet and everything
was laid waste. Admiral Kirk never
bothered to check on our progress.

I think these lines go a long way to summing up Americas attitude to its internal movement’s (hippies American values towards its enemy who are only trying to survive in a world where America has disenfranchised the independence of other countries).

The point being
“Admiral Kirk never
bothered to check on our progress”

Kirk is America never seeing the end result of its actions towards others. The 60s were a free for all party for Americas self appointed Moral Superiority over other cultures they never understood. (even now). It was the suburban comfort of not having to confront the world it was a part of and seeing its place and its self for what it was and is, just a country forming a part of a larger community.

Khan is the world returning to America and asking WTF did you and do you think your doing to us. Revenge is a dish best served cold its very cold for America in the world right know.

42. Disinvited - March 17, 2014

#30. tom vinelli – March 16, 2014

None other than TIME magazine appears to endorse your position:

http://time.com/26809/star-trek-chris-pine-guilty-dui-in-nz/

“Hollywood ACTION [my emphasis-Disinvited] star Chris Pine pleaded guilty to charges of drunk driving in New Zealand on Monday after being pulled over earlier in the month, according to the Associated Press.” – David Stout, TIME

43. Cygnus-X1 - March 17, 2014

33. Who cares – March 16, 2014

So that is like 10 instances of interstellar transporters I have counted now, from throughout the franchise, not counting the reboot movies because I am looking at how many times it was used in the older versions.

I’m not sure if you’re mentioning this in relation to issues that have been brought regarding the duffel-bag transporter in STID. If so, I’d just point out that the issue is not just increasingly fantastical technology, but how it’s used and how it serves the story.

44. Disinvited - March 17, 2014

#38. moonwatcher – March 17, 2014

I support your call for a remaster, but I am probably more concerned that they restore the original 70mm 6 channel sound and offer it as a listening option than rejiggering the FX yet again. But I understand your concerns and that that genii is already out of the bottle.

45. Disinvited - March 17, 2014

#25. Hat Rick – March 16, 2014

There’s Progressive and then there’s MADD. Personally being a part of two family lineages each helmed by a living raging alcoholic patriarch during my formative and young adolescent years, well..you know…I tend towards throwing in with the mothers.

46. star trackie - March 17, 2014

I’m digging the vibes I’m getting from new guys and their relationship with Bad Robot. They are young though. I hope they can draw the line between TOS and TNG. TNG was an ok space show, but it lacked so much of Star Trek that made StarTrek Star Trek…its hard to call it Star Trek! Say that 5 times fast! lol Can’t wait to see what’s in store for the 50th anniversary!

47. Disinvited - March 17, 2014

#23. richpit – March 16, 2014

The Kirk character was saying that about the Spock character. Maybe missionaries bicycled their way out that far? Perhaps a variant of LDS would especially catch on in New Vulcan where certain historic “traditional” unions promoted in ts formative years could only be seen as logical in a campaign to restore the population back to its original numbers asap?

48. Marja - March 17, 2014

23 Richpit, LOL I thought of that too! In fact I cannot stop thinking about it

From “Mormonism” blog: “Harris replied that if his companion could only see [the Moon] as he had, he might well call it beautiful, explaining that he had actually visited the moon, and added that it “was only the faithful who were permitted to visit celestial regions.”

Ruh-roh

49. Who cares - March 17, 2014

@Keachick. I don’t know where you get your “facts” but if Pine’s Blood Alchohol content had been 1.13 he would be dead now, death occurs at about .60 BAC, though the possibility first occurs at .30 BAC, Chris might have been at .113 BAC, well over the legal limit of .08 BAC, but he could never possibly hit 1.13 BAC. You gotta pay attention to those decimal places, the smallest difference changes the number completely.

50. Who cares - March 17, 2014

1.13 Blood Alchohol Content would mean a persons blood was more than 100 percent alchohol by the way, that is medically and mathematically impossible.

51. Obsidian - March 17, 2014

Huh. I thought they’d tell us the entire plot, villain, and who’s playing him or her, a trailer, and a 4 minute scene.

52. Obsidian - March 17, 2014

Huh. I thought they’d tell us the entire plot, villain, and who’s playing him or her, a trailer, and a 4 minute scene.

53. Obsidian - March 17, 2014

Huh. My comment posted twice. :D

54. Ahmed - March 17, 2014

@49. Who cares

You are correct, according to Variety, it was 0.11

“Police told the court that a blood test found Pine’s blood-alcohol level was 0.11 percent, which is over New Zealand’s legal limit of 0.08 percent. ”

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/chris-pine-pleads-guilty-to-dui-in-new-zealand-1201135828/

55. DeBeckster - March 17, 2014

I just want an interesting, original story, please.

56. Stephen Higgins - March 17, 2014

At least he’s not Steven Moffat ….

57. Jon - March 17, 2014

#18: No offense, but I would say the exact same thing about going back to Trek 101 for actual ST fans who liked STID :) .

I have seen numerous interviews with Roddenberry where he directly states that ST at its core is meant to be allegorical and reflect the relevant issues of the human condition.

Here’s a short interview where he does pretty much unequivocally state the above that was filmed around when TNG was getting ready to premiere:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30CyfAIhn6Y

You are certainly welcome to your opinion certainly and I don’t begrudge you it, but I can say that all of my friends who also have enjoyed previous Trek offerings…ALL of them…did not like STID much primarily because it so forcefully abandoned Trek’s core principals in their learned opinions.

With that said, I am encouraged by Mr. Payne’s comments here and hope that the next movie will reflect his stated vision of ST (which I mostly share).

Again, not trying to be mean here :) and don’t take the above the wrong way…I am actually rather fascinated by the ST fans who liked STID and how they can see something so differently than I did…

Is this the principal of the IDIC at work here :) ?

58. Keachick - March 17, 2014

As Phil did explain, it is the different way in which the blood-alcohol count is measured. The alcohol limit has also been expressed as .8, which puts his level on this scale at 1.13.

“A roadside breath test was positive and a subsequent blood test also found him over the limit at 113mg/100ml. The legal limit is 80.” Marlborough Express/NZ Herald.

#38 – Chris Pine sought legal counsel as was his right under NZ law. His counsel requested non-conviction as per an accused rights and as per her obligation to her client. “Judge Joanna Maze refused to discharge him without conviction because she said she was “*OBLIGED TO TREAT OFFENDERS ALIKE”.” *My emphasis

In other words, Chris Pine was not given any special treatment by the Court. Because it was noted that he had not appeared in court before, he had not caused the injury or death of anyone, putting him in prison was not warranted. She did impose disqualification from driving for six months, which is what happens if you are found to be DUI, especially if you have the amount of alcohol in your system that Chris Pine had when he was stopped. She did not fine him, as she could have. She did seek reparations from him – pay Court costs/blood-alcohol test. She noted that he had made a donation to a NZ Charity organization which was SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any fine she could impose on him.

One could cynically say that his donation was about getting some good publicity, but then again, I doubt the charity cares too much about that aspect, given that, in all likelihood, it could certainly do with the money.

It is possible that the Judge might have been able to not convict, just fine him the maximum and issue a warning has his blood-alcohol just been a little over the limit, eg 83mg/100ml, but it was not. It was much higher and she could not ignore that, hence the conviction. I am not sure if Chris’s lawyer could appeal the length of time he has been disqualified from driving, seeking a reduction from the six months to say three months. Perhaps that is what is being discussed as I write this.

Now, Son of Jello, stop talking crap!

59. Ahmed - March 17, 2014

@57. Keachick

“She noted that he had made a donation to a NZ Charity organization which was SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any fine she could impose on him.”

Not really a significant donation, it was just “more than four times his fine.”

The fine was $93, meaning that the donation was about $400. Not a significant number for an actor like Pine.

60. Michael Hall - March 17, 2014

*Sigh” Sorry to see Chris Pine, who definitely has some talent, acting like the Trek 2009 version of James T. Kirk.

(And yeah, the assertion that TOS was largely not allegorical storytelling is just plain absurd.)

61. Keachick - March 17, 2014

The NZ$93 was not a fine – it was reparations.

“She convicted him and he was fined $93 in reparation for the blood test, and disqualified from driving for six months. No fine was imposed because he had made a sizable donation to charity Cure Kids.” NZ Herald

The minimum fine imposed for a traffic infringement is $80 for a speeding offence (no alcohol). Being even slightly DUI can bring a fine of $250. Many defendants can be fined a lot more, depending on the circumstances, even when alcohol has not been a factor. At a guess, I would say that the donation would have been at least $1,000 – quite likely, more.

62. Phil - March 17, 2014

For clarity, the blood alcohol content is reported as a percentage in NZ, so what we would see here as .08 reads .8 there, and .11 here would be 1.1 there. Gotta do a little math, people.

A lot more is being made of this then is necessary – to be suggesting that Pine isn’t anything more then Rob Ford is just without merit at this point in time. The guy made a mistake, and is making amends for it. No reason to be whipping out the scarlet letter at this time…

63. The Keeper - March 17, 2014

Maybe JD here can write a half way credible screen play.

Let’s just hope that Retardo Oreo doesn’t over shadow any plot lines with his idiot view of the Star Trek world.
He already ruined the scared Khan story and killed off Trek fans favorite Capt Pike for no good reason other then we liked having him there…Lord only know’s what crap Retardo Oreo will drop on us.

64. Phil - March 17, 2014

@62. Let me guess….you’re eight, right?

65. The Keeper - March 17, 2014

@63.
Which would be 8 yrs more then your own simpleton and accepting views of Retardo’s writing abilities….just sayin..

66. Red Dead Ryan - March 17, 2014

#62. The Keeper,

I think you are El Stupido Amigo with your kindergarten-level, cookie-brained remarks which are better posted on TrekMORONS.Com. :-)

67. The Keeper - March 17, 2014

@65 Oh yeah, now I’m afraid…not.
And if you love Retardo’s writing, then there is no further need to seek out and post at TrekMORONS.com when right here is perfectly suited for that as proven by yourself ;-)

68. Spock's Bangs - March 17, 2014

ah yes, Mr. Keeper….take your adolescent prattle and return to Lost in Space where you belong. That is all.

FACT!

69. The Keeper - March 17, 2014

@68 Spock ‘s Bangs I’m sure you as blind as a bat and that is more fact then you can swallow.
Don’t worry about what I say.
Retardo already publicly and directly told us fans “F*CK YOU”
He wasn’t reprimanded by Paramount for his actions by tainting the Star Trek brand, he was rewarded with yet another gig writing the 3rd film.
So he’s right now laughing at me and Paramount for pointing all this out and laughing at you who will embrace what ever bilge water he writes.
What more could he possible do to alienate the long time fans who have been responsible for keeping the franchise alive all these decades?
I myself do not know, but I am sure we will all find out in the 50th anniversary film.

70. Commodore Shaggy - March 17, 2014

@31 – I guess you missed out on DS9 then and the spiritual Bajorans. TOS also has had storylines where spiritual or God concepts have appeared. Dr. McCoy’s objections about the Genesis Device come to mind too.

I doubt these writers will interject their religious beliefs into the story although in LDS theology belief in life on other worlds has been a part of it since 1830.

71. Matt Wright - March 17, 2014

@ Spock’s Bangs and The Keeper knock that stuff right now, or you guys are done here.

72. Keachick - March 17, 2014

I don’t know who or what this Retardo Oreo may have said, but I do recall a writer letting go an F-bomb in response to ONE (1) poster’s comments here. That happened sometime back. An argument which shall not be named between two people who shall not be named. Call it a Trekmovie Voldemort moment.

73. Marja - March 17, 2014

THANK YOU MATT WRIGHT

wank gets so repetitive, hostilities rising, eventually boring the frk out of everyone else.

WE WHO WERE ABOUT TO LEAVE SALUTE YOU SIR.

74. Diskhanbobulated - March 17, 2014

22 Mad Mann

“Yeah, I’m totes jelly of these guys.”

WTF? Why not just SPELL THE WORDS “totally jealous” instead of that hipster slang? Ugh.

That said, your idea to bring back the salt vampire would be awesome. NuBones needs his own story, he’s been ignored for the most part in the first two films.

Hope those kids can write a decent script, otherwise it’s RIP NuTrek. Just bring back the real, Constitution class Big E and make us all happy. And, yes, a story that’s not revenge-based would be peachy.

75. Diskhanbobulated - March 17, 2014

22 Mad Mann

“Yeah, I’m totes jelly of these guys.”

WTF? Why not just SPELL THE WORDS “totally jealous” instead of that hipster slang? Ugh.

That said, your idea to bring back the salt vampire would be awesome. NuBones needs his own story, he’s been ignored for the most part in the first two films.

Hope those kids can write a decent script, otherwise it’s RIP NuTrek. Just bring back the real, Constitution class Big E and make us all happy. And, yes, a story that’s not revenge-based would be peachy.

76. StelArian - March 17, 2014

@70. Commodore Shaggy:

Religion is part of life. And there is lot in Star Trek but in a “monitor” point of view. This is something I like. Star Trek itself never promote “divine spirituality” as solution. On the same time there clear respect to individual “faith”.

First time I hear for LDS and after reading wikipedia I’m still not sure what those guys are selling.

I’m OK if Star Trek comment about religion. I just don’t want to see it got used as a delivery platform.

Welcome on board JD Payne and Patrick McKay :)

77. Diskhanbobulated - March 17, 2014

Sorry for the double-post, malfunctioning replicator?

78. Ahmed - March 17, 2014

Continuing my “research” into the new Star Trek writers, I came across this first video of J.D. Payne talking about Star Trek, writing & other stuff.

The video is 90 minutes long. It was taken on February 8th at the 13th LDS Film Festival 2014.

The first 11 minutes are about Star Trek XIII where he reveals that the first meeting regarding Star Trek XIII was conducted back in April 2013.

Enjoy the video :)

============================
LDSFF 2014 Hollywood Insider: Conversations With Film Industry Leaders – JD Payne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s90IqsMPmkA

============================

After watching the video, I’m excited now to have him on board. He seems to know what Star Trek is all about, just hope that he will not listen too closely to Abrams ideas !

79. Finnigan - March 17, 2014

How could it be worse that STID which had a pathetic script? Let’s say good bye to the bad guy with a vendetta, the absolute comic portrayal of Captain James T. Kirk, and for the love of all that is sacred, let’s lose the lens flares.

STID was horrific. Please, you youngsters, bring us the spirit of TOS and do something better than the last two attempts which were underwhelming and mediocre.

Happy St. Paddy’s Day Jimmy, me boy!

80. moauvian waoul - March 17, 2014

!

81. Ahmed - March 17, 2014

@Matt,

Might be a good idea to update the article with the new Payne video.

82. Buzz Cagney - March 18, 2014

#75 totes jelly? pmsl
Looks like we have another aspiring Bad Reboot writer in the making!

83. AskMen - March 18, 2014

You people do realise that when a writer for any new Trek says anything to do with ‘going back to roots’, ‘respecting what has gone before’ or whatever … they’re just paying lip service. As soon as the movie comes out, you’re confronted with the same stale turd you were served up the last two times.

I refuse to be conned anymore.

84. Hat Rick - March 18, 2014

I hate it that there is so little Star Trek movie news in the news.

I am also not getting a good feeling about the new writers.

It looks like maybe the guy who said that Star Trek is on the wrong track months ago was right — and I was one who said that he was wrong at the time.

85. Mad Mann - March 18, 2014

@ 75 Diskhanbobulated – March 17, 2014

I’m 39 years old, I really don’t talk like that. I was just trying to be funny and topical. Whatevs.

Any-who, Bones does need to be part of the plot, a fuller story and not just comic relief. I don’t think that having Nancy Crater or her sucky-face alter-ego is the way to go, though. While I like The Man Trap, it’s not a cinematic type of episode to construct a movie around.

How awesome would it be to see a character arc for Dr. McCoy? Even give him a love interest? And have his actions and/or interests drive the story? Truly see that McCoy is Id to Kirk’s Ego and Spock’s Superego.

Ah, it is to dream. I doubt these new writers have any idea about that.

86. Gary - March 18, 2014

Star Trek TOS was at its best the first two seasons when many of the stories were written by well known Science Fiction writers. I wish Bad Robot would go that route. Maybe then we would have a more thought provoking story.

87. Eric Holloway - March 18, 2014

#85 Gary, well said sir. My thinking as well. Personally I wish we could get a reboot of the reboot. It’s funny how these writers/directors all think that Star Trek is Paramount’s answer to Star Wars…it isn’t. The stories seen in TOS built up drama and suspense before the action was let loose. Kirk was a confident, strong leader who also had good physical strenghth and knew how to handle himself in a fight. Sure he could get licked, but he wouldn’t go down easy or quickly. He was very intelligent, well read and respected not only himself but those around him. He was also smooth with the ladies but not vulgar. You know Kirk’s reputation with the ladies? Even in the real world we live in it is well known and we never saw as much of him or his conquests as we did in these last two films and yet no one is talking about them. It was implied sex but we never saw them in their underwear, we never needed to as the overall story was better. Now his ability to woo the ladies is being exploited for shock value alone. Sensationalism for the sake of itself doesn’t make a great film, respect for the characters and good writing does. Look at 2001: A Space Odyssey for example. That movie after all these years is still on many lists as being a great sci-fi movie. I’m sure there are still art houses that show this movie to this day and many people still remember when they first saw it and remember it fondly. It didn’t have a lot of flashy action to it but it is still remembered and played on TV. Will these latest ST movies have the same fate? Only time will tell, but I doubt it. What we would love to see is a combination of great drama sprinkled with some action, not the other way around this time.

88. Jon - March 18, 2014

Had to post this (and apologies if it’s already been posted)…it’s a paraphrase from a recent posted quote from a very famous TOS writer (whom I shall not name) on how the next film should end that put me in stitches when I read it the other day…it’s so perfect!:

Kirk wakes up next to Bob Newhart in a bed. He turns to Mr. Newhart and says that he just had the most horrific dream…

Indeed…the perfect way to undo the terrible, nearly irrevocable damage done to the Trek name by STID! :) :)

89. Jefferies Tuber - March 18, 2014

I don’t doubt for a moment that these guys get Trek and have the chops. Bad Robot is a machine that churns out television writers. So to all those who say, ‘Trek is fundamentally a television experience,’ you should be grateful the property is in Bad Robot’s hands.

The real question is, did they hire these guys to take us one more step into darkness, or to take us back into the light? In a narrative sense, Kirk’s lifelong journey into darkness, from his father’s death and his troubled adolescence to the events of the last movie, is only a “story” if these two acts are prelude to a redemption. The return to order. Kirk’s rediscovery of his higher self.

If Trek is about optimism, then I will read optimistically into the hiring of a Mormon dude.

90. smike - March 18, 2014

While I’d really prefer Trek 3 to be about exploration and that certain sense of wonder, I highly doubt it will be. Maybe this time, it’s a good thing they are heading for a Klingon story. It’s common knowledge the Klingons were designed as ficticious versions of the Sovjets / Russians back in the 60s. With tensions between Russia and the West currently reaching a new all-time high, it is only fitting to have the same with Klingons and the Federation.

Apart from that: there are MANY things so totally wrong with STID which is IMO the worst of the twelve Trek movies, but being without allegorical content refering to current events is nonesense. It had a VERY topical issue: drone attacks on “terrorists” in other countries…

However, the script was so full of plotholes, illegit plot devices and shoehorning it hurts. It was basically a good idea but awfully executed in most parts…

91. Marja - March 18, 2014

79 DisKhan, Actually “wtf” is internet- AND text-speak, unless you were in the military, where it’s been standard for decades, usually used with respect to authority :-).
——————
89 Jeffries, I’m 98% with you, as long as the Mormon dude doesn’t imbue our Trek characters with a love of a particular religion, or religion in general. Respect paid is fine, but to a point, per StelArian’s post at #76 above.

92. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

@ 90. smike – March 18, 2014

“While I’d really prefer Trek 3 to be about exploration and that certain sense of wonder, I highly doubt it will be. ”

Payne said in the video that since the first movie was an origin story & the second one was a revenge & manhunt story, the 3rd movie should “get back to the sense of exploration & wonder & the optimistic sense of the future that Star Trek has at its core”.

I was very pleased to hear him say that.

93. I am not Herbert - March 18, 2014

not happy about trek being created from a religious POV, but would be hard-pressed not to be any worse that what we’ve gotten so far… =(

I’ll take mormons over catholics/jews (cabal) any day!

NZ’s handling CP’s DUI perfectly! glad no loss of life! Good on ya’! =)

(CP’s lawyer is also handling it perfectly) ;-)

94. I am not Herbert - March 18, 2014

Marja: …not to mention SNAFU & FUBAR ;-)

which both apply to nu-trek! =D

95. I am not Herbert - March 18, 2014

…for you Bruce Greenwood fans: i recommend

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Below/60024909?trkid=13462100

In this thriller, an American submarine stumbles upon a downed British hospital ship while navigating treacherous waters during World War II.

has Zach Galifianakis too ;-)

96. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

The Force is strong this morning :)

==================================
STAR WARS: EPISODE VII Takes Place 30 Years After RETURN OF THE JEDI; Starts Filming in May

Disney and Lucasfilm are excited to announce that principal photography on Star Wars: Episode VII, directed by J.J. Abrams, will commence May 2014, and will be based at London’s historic Pinewood Studios.

It has also been confirmed that Star Wars: Episode VII is set about 30 years after the events of Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi, and will star a trio of new young leads along with some very familiar faces. No further details on casting or plot are available at this time.

Star Wars: Episode VII will release in theaters on December 18, 2015.

http://collider.com/star-wars-episode-7-timeline-cast/
==================================
It is like 1997 all over again, very exciting times :)

97. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

Interesting, the video of J.D. Payne talking about Star Trek at the 13th LDS Film Festival 2014 was removed this afternoon !!

But you can still watch the relevant Star Trek part of that missing video from Trekcore Youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnOmQrCVaq0

It was a very good video, I wonder why it was deleted

98. Weerd1 - March 18, 2014

What an incredible swarm of negativity. I miss what this site and the fans on it used to be. Good-bye.

99. Buzz Cagney - March 18, 2014

#98 oh how negative of you!

100. I am not Herbert - March 18, 2014

Ahmed: Thx for the link!

…apparently they serve some strong coffee at those LDS meetings! =)

…also, nice to see Corky in the audience ;-)

NextGen knowledge is good, but TOS would be better… =(

…now they need a director who kisses butt like that! =D

101. Michelle - March 18, 2014

I would like to see Kirk, Spock and MCCOY as the essential three. Uhura has driven me crazy the last two movies. She is whiny, clingy and generally overall annoying.

Also, Spock and Uhura have NO CHEMISTRY. They are basically boring.

McCoy is not ignored, but he should be a much bigger part of the story.

Also, I don’t want to see Earth in the third movie. Only outer space. Entirely on ship would be nice, but I can stand some alien planets.

Trek 2 was basically a rewrite of the first movie.

102. Daoud, The Sinfonian - March 18, 2014

Ahmed: Good find on the TrekCore having saved the relevant part! A shame the LDS film group took it down.

There’s something very unexplained and interesting about Damon Lindelof and Alex Kurtzmann not being involved going forward. I get a sense the Bob Orci was overruled on a lot of script decisions since he was outnumbered… and on those script decisions Bob ended up looking like Cassandra and JJ wishes he’d gone Bob’s way. At least that’s how it seems.

If Into Darkness had stuck with Bob’s idea of actually just using Harold Ericcson/John Harrison, a Khan colleague, and left Khan in one of the 72 torpedoes, that right there would have saved a lot of the damn film, and left Khan for when they could get the right actor to portray him.

103. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

@ 101. Daoud, The Sinfonian – March 18, 2014

“Ahmed: Good find on the TrekCore having saved the relevant part! A shame the LDS film group took it down.”

I’m not sure if it was the LDS group that took the video down. After all, it was there since February 8 & was only removed this afternoon after it was posted here & on other Trek sites !

If I was a suspicious guy, I would say that either Bob or Bad Robot asked for the video to be taken down.

104. Bill Peters - March 18, 2014

like they talk about next gen while Creating Star Trek 3,….

105. Keachick - March 18, 2014

http://www.mormon.org/faq/law-of-health

This confirms what I thought I knew about Mormon beliefs. They are not unlike Seventh-Day Adventist beliefs in this respect. I was brought up SDA which meant no alcohol at all, ever. However, my father smoked, much to my mother’s chagrin.

Mormons may refer to abstinence from these substances (see link above) as Law, but this is a later construct. It is not law as Jews and most Christians see the Ten Commandments as being Law, God’s Law, or the later injunction by Jesus, “This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.” (John 15:12)

In the Old Testament, warnings were given about the perils of consuming (too much) strong drink – people tend to infer this as a reference to alcohol, but as far as my understanding goes, there was never any actual law forbidding consumption of such substances. In the New Testament, Jesus himself is said to have changed water into wine at a wedding feast – made from fermented grapes where a by-product is alcohol.

It really comes down to taking a moderate, considered approach when it comes to whether one will drink any kind of alcohol, how much, where and when. If, for an individual, that means no consumption at all, then that is their choice and vice versa.

106. shamelord - March 18, 2014

Mr. Payne, don’t you lose those beautiful Trek ideals on the way to production!

107. Mad Mann - March 18, 2014

@ 101. Daoud, The Sinfonian

That’s what I always suspected. That Orci really does “get” Star Trek, but Lindelof, with his pushy-ness and huge ego, fought for all the stupidity (including the use of Khan and TWOK death scene) in STID. I know I read that Orci was against that stuff at first, but relented to the mighty Damon. This is why I am really optimistic about this next movie, no Lindelof! Yay!

I am no kiss-ass by any means, but I do trust Orci. I will call him out on certain things (med bay?) but I feel that Orci will not go for cheap Trek usages like Khan and instead craft an original story filled with exploration, wonder, adventure, and yet show the true triumvirate of Kirk-Spock-McCoy. And, in true Roddenberry fashion, there would be the subtle examination of the human condition.

108. Stephan - March 18, 2014

Ok, after having seen the interview, he sounds competent to me.

He seems like a nerd but one of the more sympathic and cool nerds which are modern since big bang theory at the latest. ;-) I like how he can joke about his trek knowledge in public and how creepy it can seem to muggels while showing how proud he is to be a trek fan at the same time.
He has a twinkle in his eyes while he is talking, that is always a good sign.

I don’t want to interprete too much in one interview. I am just trying to find some words for what my intention tells me.

I have good feelings for trek 13.

109. Phil - March 18, 2014

@104. My wife is an RN at a SDA hospital in Loma Linda, CA. Setting aside the religious calling of their institution, the community in Loma Linda has kept active a long standing study on dietary habits and longevity. There are three communities on the planet where longevity and overall health have been documented to this extent, and it’s not a coincidence that Loma Linda is among the three….it’s not uncommon that people live very healthy well into their nineties.

The cafeteria is vegetarian, and the irony isn’t lost on me that the families of patients will gripe about the food (usually without trying it), and drag their 300 pound @$$es in to visit, carrying in pizza and burgers. The proof is right there, yet people won’t put the burgers down….

110. TrekMadeMeWonder - March 18, 2014

I am encouraged by the recent Orci observations here.

Very enlightening.

Still yearning for BIG Trek news, though.

Interesting post @93, 95. I am not Herbert.

111. Marja - March 18, 2014

94 Herbert, I am hoping Trek3 will not be FUBAR or SNAFU.

104 Keachick, Alas, they are anything but moderate on their rates of childbirth. And if Mitt Romney was a typical example, I find that sad and somewhat frightening, in view of his political beliefs. I don’t care if people are Conservative, but I do care a lot when they try to impose their beliefs, religious or moral, on others outside their belief systems.

112. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

@ 110. Marja – March 18, 2014

“Alas, they are anything but moderate on their rates of childbirth. And if Mitt Romney was a typical example, I find that sad and somewhat frightening, in view of his political beliefs.”

Payne was jokingly telling the audience in the video: “We are to write & to procreate”

113. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

Forget to add “here”, “We are here to write & to procreate”

114. Ahmed - March 18, 2014

The first 10 minutes from Captain America: The Winter Soldier is online, for now !

================================
Watch the First Ten Minutes of CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/MarvelFreshman/news/?a=96320

115. Ensign RedShirt - March 18, 2014

I love how a couple of people in here somehow lay blame for STID square at the feet of Damon Lindelof, with no proof whatsoever, and absolves everyone else, including the director, who also happens to have been the producer.

These films, more than many others, are a group effort. If you love the films, the credit goes to all of them. If you hate them, the same applies.

To assign blame to one person without having been involved in the process and having no inside knowledge whatsoever is absolutely absurd.

116. Diskhanbobulated - March 18, 2014

85. Mad Mann – March 18, 2014

Sorry for sounding a bit harsh there, didn’t mean to come off like that. Had a long day. We’re about the same age, anyway :)

Karl Urban is indeed spot-on for McCoy, what a shame he’s been pretty much overlooked so far. We’ve had enough of the Uhura/Spock thing, it’s time for our country doctor to get his own arc as you said!

117. Keachick - March 18, 2014

#110 – I did not write anything about childbirth rates among Mormons or anybody else. I talked about attitudes towards the consumption of alcohol in particular.

118. I am not Herbert - March 18, 2014

…some of them DO have kids poppin’ out like a damn clown car!! =P

…nevermind that overpopulation is our BIGGEST PROBLEM! =(

STOP PROCREATING!! (I guess it’s their only pleasure, besides writing LOL)

and yes, alcohol is DEATH IN A BOTTLE.. (cannabis is better) ;-)

119. Marja - March 18, 2014

111 Ahmed, I was actually responding to Keachick saying that “Mormons are moderate” but think Payne’s joke shows a good sense of humor about himself and his beliefs.

114 Ens Redshirt, Y’know how there’s one guy at the party who convinces everyone else to drive down the rural highway after dark with the car’s lights off, and everybody goes along cos they think it’ll be really cool? Damon Lindelof is that guy. IMHO.

115 DisKhan, I don’t think the Spock/Uhura thing and more of McCoy are mutually exclusive! In fact I would find it quite amusing if McCoy were to advise them on something, together or separately ….

116 Rose, I didn’t say that you talked about their rate of childbirth. You did, however, say they are moderate in many things, which is true enough, but childbearing is not one of those things. That said, their families seem to be close-knit and mutually supportive.

120. Hat Rick - March 18, 2014

Yeah, as I guessed, not very nice news about Star Trek these days even on this board, and there’s a lot of commentary that just makes me sad. I don’t care about anyone’s religious persuasions; I just care about good Star Trek, and if anyone can direct me to the promise of it, then please let me know.

I personally like the LDS. I’m not seeing a whole lot of “this is going to be great science fiction,” however, coming from any of these comments or whatever. So, I’m tempted to just bide my time and wait this whole Star Trek cycle out. So little Star Trek news. So little time left.

I’m tired of it.

121. Keachick - March 18, 2014

Marja – You misunderstood me. My last paragraph was me giving my view on alcohol consumption in general – take a moderate, considered approach.

I don’t think that insisting that everyone abstain from drinking alcohol, tea, coffee and tobacco (all legal substances) because a latter day *prophet* gets the idea into his head that this is the law of God etc is being that moderate. It is his opinion. Indeed, much of the Bible is open to interpretation, hence all the various denominations.

I had not seen/read JD Payne’s statement, “We are here to write and to procreate”. LOL! It seems that JD Payne is married, however there was no mention of children.
I have actually believed something similar, for myself, ie from the earliest time, I have always had the notion that if I was not meant to have children, I would not have been born female. That’s just me. I have three children and a cousin of mine has seven children but her brother and his wife only have one child (they chose not to have any more). None of the family are LDS…

122. Marja - March 18, 2014

120 Hat Rick, I’m a teeny bit more hopeful about the movie now, at least Payne loves Trek … I just hope any morals are ones that all Trek fans can embrace.

Maybe there won’t be any pointless UNDIES! scenes this time :-D

123. Keachick - March 18, 2014

#120 – Frankly I do not think that whatever science fiction writers bring into Star Trek movies is going to please that many. Far from it.

Most, if not all, of the concepts that the writers have already brought have been rubbished by someone, even though I do think they do have merit, eg the portable transwarp beaming device. Given what has already been explained in the first Star Trek about the technology, such a device seems quite feasible and credible, ie good science fiction, but no…Oh the angst that such an idea has caused to so many. Then there is the continuous misunderstanding and nonsense repeated about what people erroneously refer to as “magic blood”…grief…:(

How is hearing that two young writers have joined the K/O writing team not “nice” news? What – is there something in their teeth, on their breath…?:)

Not that I am looking to get people started again on that or anything else…

124. Mad Mann - March 19, 2014

@115. Ensign RedShirt

RE: Lindelof’s Adverse Effect on Star Trek

I based my assessment on the following observations
–ST: First Contact DVD audio commentary by Lindelof and Anthony Pascale. Lindelof continuously makes fun of the movie and Star Trek in general throughout.
–Twitter. Several instances of Lindelof’s snarky, aloof, superior attitude towards almost all franchises including Trek.
–Orci once stated that it was Lindelof’s idea to use Khan. Orci stated he was against it at first, but then relented to Lindelof. (Orci did state that Lindelof was right. But I think he was just being polite.)
–Lindelof, in an interview, stated that Khan to Kirk is analagous to the Joker to Batman. This is so off the mark.
–In Orci’s podcast interview, he seemed to really understand what Star Trek is about, which did not really translate to screen in STiD. My hypothesis is that much of Orci’s wishes were squashed in that committee you mentioned. True, it was not just Lindelof that had a negative impact, but evidence suggests he was a major part of it.
–Lastly: Lost’s final episode. ‘Nuff said.

125. Jim Nightshade - March 19, 2014

Hey why cant all you negative trek haters ever get it and comment with politeness and respect for the many hard working people involved in making the trek movies and respect for those of us who do not share your bile filled rude and uncaring comments against jj,bob orci, et al and trek in general…you may have some valid opinions but if you really are a trek fan then use a little bit of idic thought and respect n allow those who do not agree with you the right to at least not to have to keep reading your rude disrespectful hate filled diatribes repeated ad nauseum…no movie is ever perfect but there seems to be so much fan hatred spewing filth its hard to believe any of you are really fans or like trek at all. Why are you guys even here reading news you dont want to hear? Go bitch somewhere else if you cant discuss pros and cons in a civilized matter…you embarass me that supposed fans of trek can be so petty rude n hate filled…bottom line its only a movie you guys act like stid is the worst trek movie ever..far from it in my opinion….why dont you guys all spread your hate on some trek haters site cuz you are not trek fans and i think matt n company here have been very patient n restrained dealing with you guys…let go of your hate it leads to the dark side…opps wrong movie but you know what i mean…its less fun every time i come here reading these same rude hate filled crap showing no respect for trek n fans who dont agree with you….discuss oros n cons all you want but im sooo tired of the hate n rudeness n filth from supposed trek fans who should be tolerant of views other than yours…

126. dswynne - March 19, 2014

@111 (Marja): Mormons don’t impose their cultural/religious views on anyone. In fact, having been targeted for persecution by both government and non-government parties in the past for their beliefs, back in their early days, they are very supportive of the philosophy of self-determination. Coupled with the fact they they believe in a strong work-ethic and charity, it is surprising that you could come off as, well, bigoted, simply because of the 2012 Presidential Race. Disappointing.

127. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Stealth Technology Seizure Behind Malaysian Flight 370 Hijacked by US Navy to Island of Diego Garcia…

…within 24-hours of off-loading this “highly suspicious” cargo load bound for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, the two highly-trained US Navy SEALS assigned to protect it, Mark Daniel Kennedy, 43, and Jeffrey Keith Reynolds, 44, were found dead under “suspicious circumstances.”

128. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

“There were 20 Chinese software engineers in the aircraft, riding as passengers, and they were working for Freescale Technology in Austin, Texas, and they had the intellectual property of an open patent. In other word[s], a patent had been applied for, but yet — not yet granted. And the ownership of that patent was 20%, 20%, 20%, 20% and 20% for the U.S. Corporation named Freescale. And until that patent is granted, there is no ownership,” McConnell said.

129. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Freescale’s shareholders include the Carlyle Group [!] whose past advisers have included ex-US president George Bush Sr and former British Prime Minister John Major. Carlyle’s previous heavyweight clients include the Saudi Binladin Group, the construction firm owned by the family of Osama bin Laden.

130. Phil - March 19, 2014

@126. Just stop.

131. Jim Nightshade - March 19, 2014

i already read about the chinese software engineers on board…so they were bringing a stealth tech item back to china from malaysia? horrific if true that anyone wouldnt mind wiping out 300 lives for it…..then again many worse things have been done….i just hope the plane wasnt taken to put a nuke on it for detonation in new york or israel etc…

132. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@ 120. Hat Rick – March 18, 2014

“Yeah, as I guessed, not very nice news about Star Trek these days even on this board, and there’s a lot of commentary that just makes me sad. I don’t care about anyone’s religious persuasions; I just care about good Star Trek, and if anyone can direct me to the promise of it, then please let me know.”

Watch the TrekCore clip of the Payne interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnOmQrCVaq0

The guy got me excited when he talked about the need for this movie to be about exploration, science fiction & the optimistic nature of future Trek.

@ 121. Keachick – March 18, 2014

“I had not seen/read JD Payne’s statement, “We are here to write and to procreate”. LOL! It seems that JD Payne is married,”

He talked about it in the original 90-minute video that was removed yesterday, for some mysterious reason, after the video was shared on Star Trek sites !!

He was talking about his life in LA & working as tutor, meeting his girlfriend who became his future wife & that where he mentioned that “We are here to write and to procreate”.

133. Tom - March 19, 2014

Hopefully they do stay true to TOS , adventure, explorations etc. Especialliy for the 50th anniversary. The problems occur when you hear “we want a make a good movie, not just a good Star Trek Movie” Pandering to big budget popcorn action flicks gets thrown in there since studios want to make the big bucks. Sometimes that ends up infringing on telling a true sci-fi TOS type story. Which goes back to the premise of where it is better to tell such stories in a TV series. Hopefully Bob and the new guys can succeed!

134. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

we are in a police state =(

we have NO FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY =(

we are IN “the matrix”… =(

WAKE UP!!!

135. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Ahmed: yeah, yeah…

Boborci spouts all of that exploration, science fiction & optimism BS too!

Do you believe HIM?

136. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Jim Nightshade: I doubt that anyone was killed (unless they crashed it)

they are probably being “detained” for “national security”… =(

137. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

..wait ’til you find out the Truth about 9/11 (false flag)… =(

138. Tom - March 19, 2014

134. I am not Herbert

Have to take their word for it, and wait and see. Totally understand your skepticism. I trust Bob but I think sometimes outside influences cause you to make concessions whether it be a director, studio etc. It’s like a politician that goes in with a good intent and gets beaten down by the system.

139. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@ 134. I am not Herbert – March 19, 2014

“Ahmed: yeah, yeah…
Boborci spouts all of that exploration, science fiction & optimism BS too!
Do you believe HIM?”

I do to some degree. Payne is not as seasoned as Bob, he is still fresh & from what I seen & read so far, he seems to have a good idea about Star Trek.

Watch the video & you will see him getting excited about the prospect of doing something different from the previous two movies.

He said that given that the 1st one was an origin story & the 2nd was a manhunt story, the 3rd movie should “get back to the sense of exploration & wonder & the optimistic sense of the future that Star Trek has at its core”.

But I was a bit worried when he talked about Abrams giving him advice on story writing & such. I don’t want him to adapt Abrams “mystery box” crap.

Of course, we will have to wait until we see the movie.

140. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Tom: that’s apologist BS

Boborci’s crimes are intentional =(

did GR get “beat-down”?

141. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

OF COURSE he’s “optimistic”!

CHA-CHING$$$

142. Jon - March 19, 2014

#111 (Marja). Not to get too political, but I must point out that there are plenty of folks of both sides of the political aisle that always seem to want to force their views on us all. For examples from the Left, look no further than the previous mayor of NYC (Bloomberg) and all of the Nanny state laws he tried to pass (right down to the size of a soda you were allowed to drink).

Don’t unfairly pigeon-hole Conservatives only into that category is all I am saying :) .

143. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@ 139. I am not Herbert – March 19, 2014

“Boborci’s crimes are intentional =(”

Dude, we are talking about a movie here. There were no “crimes” committed here.

You know how much I disliked STID & had a few arguments with Bob about it but at the end of the day, we need to remember that we are talking about a movie. People have different views about it, some hate it very much & others like it. So, don’t take it way too hard.

144. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

it is not “just a movie” (well, it shouldn’t be, anyway) =(

(real) Star Trek is not “just a TV show”… =(

i am using the word “crime” figuratively… ;-)

Star Trek is MY modern mythology and moral compass!

i take it’s defiling seriously… =(

145. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Bloomberg was trying to help STUPID americans from killing themselves with sugar…

Type 2 diabetes with those fries…? d’uh… ok… =P

146. Red Dead Ryan - March 19, 2014

I am not Herbert,

Knock it off already. You’ve derailed this thread into political trolling with your condescending (and in the case of the missing plane) insensitive posts.

No one cares about your “conspiracy theories”, nor do they appreciate being labelled “STUPID”.

Again, knock it off or take it elsewhere.

147. star trackie - March 19, 2014

#124 “Go bitch somewhere else if you cant discuss pros and cons in a civilized matter…”

They wont go. They know Bob, at least used to, come around here (years ago, when it was a fun site to visit) so they get some kick from bashing, relentlessly, the dead horse in hopes Bob will shine his attention on their pathetic little existence. This site is but a shadow of it’s former glory, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Bob has taken a cue from the many other old regulars who have left this place. This was a really fun place to talk Trek, but Anthony let the place die on the vine and now its just “I hate Into darkness” I hate JJ” I hate Bob Orci” over and over and-yaawwn-over.

Enough of my rant, please carry on with the same tired nu-Trek bashing that has over-run this sad site for the past year. And yell it as loud as you want, no one is listening.

148. LogicalLeopard - March 19, 2014

147. star trackie – March 19, 2014

Bob still comes around. He was on another thread, maybe last week. This is the utter madness that makes this site so enjoyable for me to check out from time to time, because here you have a roomful of complainers that don’t like new movies, and instead of watching the old material (there’s a lot of them, you can keep yourself quite busy) they come on and complain about how the new movies are horrible. But at the same time, you’ve got an ACTUAL MOVIE PRODUCER who just pops in from time to time, and chats back and forth with the fans. To his credit, he doesn’t seem to take much of what the negative people say to heart. But he does address some points that fans have had IN THE MOVIES *LOL* Like the whole Kirk being promoted too fast angle, which plays a central part in the movie. We’ll probably hear a crack about Khan’s magic blood or something in the next movie. So, here you have a movie producer that actually listens to the fans, and is responsive to a degree, but everyone STILL complains *LOL* It’s madness, and God help me, but I kind of like it. Although I think debating endlessly about theories regarding STID kind of hurt my initial appreciation for it (Although I liked the first one, I’ve liked it better on every rewatch), I still had loads of fun.

149. Stephan - March 19, 2014

By the way: Any news about anthony? We didn’t hear from him since nearly a year, did we? I am seriously worried about him. I mean, I think he would have said goodbye if he didn’t have the time to manage trekmovie anymore or had other priorities in life. But nothing since a year worries me…

Does anyone know more?

150. Stephan - March 19, 2014

144. I am not Herbert – March 19, 2014

“Star Trek is MY modern mythology and moral compass!”

, says the guy who doesn’t like religion and dogmas.

Funny. ;-)

151. Cygnus-X1 - March 19, 2014

86. Gary – March 18, 2014
87. Eric Holloway – March 18, 2014

Hear, hear.

152. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@125. Jim Nightshade, 147. star trackie & 148. LogicalLeopard

“Beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they.”

Guys, calm down, listen to Master Yoda & don’t get seduced by the Dark Side. After all, it is JUST a movie :-)

153. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@ 149. Stephan – March 19, 2014

“Does anyone know more?”

Matt Wright tried couple times to contact him, I sent him an email on the address provided on the site, no reply. I hope he is alright & is just taking a long vacation or something.

154. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Red Dead Ryan: It’s OBVIOUS that YOU don’t care… ;-)

don’t foist YOUR views on us as being those of the majority…

speak for yourself… and please quit yer bitchin’…?

155. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Stephan: nice try, but you don’t know what you’re talking about… ;-)

156. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

here’s one for you Read Dead:

Sarah Palin’s new ‘Murica show looks amazing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZsyleWw2Qc

157. Kevin - March 19, 2014

@147. star trackie – March 19, 2014

A lot of us regular TrekWeb readers moved over to Trekcore after TW died. They keep putting out new updates on stuff like the comics and Blu-rays, and they seem to be getting movie news before TM anymore. Their forum is pretty good.

158. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@157. Kevin

“Their forum is pretty good.”

Their forum is LOCKED, they don’t take new users because

“The administrator is currently not accepting new membership registrations.”

159. Kevin - March 19, 2014

@156 Ahmed

“Due to an influx of spam registrations, we have had to close our registration system until we can determine how to prevent the SPAM registrations… If you want to join our community, simply send webmaster@trekcore.com a message with:

Username (What you will log in as):
Display Name (What will be displayed to other users, can be same as username):
Email Address:

We’ll set up your account manually and create a temporary password – Sorry for the inconvenience! ”

http://theomegasector.com/index.php?/topic/19328-new-registrations/

160. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@159. Kevin

Thanks for the info. I wasn’t aware of that.

161. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

Trekcore uncovered more stuff from the original video

==============================
JD Payne Offers Hints to “Star Trek 3″ Plot; Describes Moral Dilemma for Enterprise Crew

Payne: “We’re trying to set up a kind of situation where you really could — and not in just an ‘everything’s relative’ sort of moral relativism — you could be a good person of any creed or philosophical background and come down on both sides of how you should respond to this opportunity that the crew has…. that also has some pitfalls to it. Where you could argue very, very, very compellingly that ‘this’ is what you should do, and if you’re advocating ‘this’ then it’s actually evil.

It’s sort of the Adam and Eve thing, where should we eat the fruit or not eat the fruit? Well, there are some very compelling reasons why they should and why they shouldn’t. So, similar kinds of things here that really give the whole movie and opportunity to sort of play with that, and have people come down on different side and wrestle with it; then come to an ending where you can walk out and say, ‘You know, I don’t know what I would do.’”

http://trekcore.com/blog/2014/03/video-jd-payne-offers-hints-to-star-trek-3-plot-describes-moral-dilemma-for-enterprise-crew/
===============================

Is he talking about THE Apple :)

162. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Ahmed: now THAT is interesting! no wonder they took it down!

yes, he IS talking about the Apple (and purposely avoiding the word) ;-)

Thank You, My Friend! =D

163. TrekMadeMeWonder - March 19, 2014

Star Trek Rapture (?)

164. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

…that’s a dangerous rabbit-hole for religious people to go down… ;-)

…but done correctly, that could be a GREAT, EPIC story! ;-)

…unfortunately, aside from the unknown writers, i have NEGATIVE-ZERO faith in this crew to pull it off… =(

165. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Star Trek ASCENSION!! =D

166. Tom - March 19, 2014

#140 I am not Herbert

Well only Bob knows if his crimes are intentional
Keep in mind GR did get beat down. That is why they did the second pilot.

We can whine and gripe all we want (as annoying and fun as it could be), but at the end of the day we have to wait for the final product. If it stinks then look forward to seeing you here whacking them some more.

167. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

Star Trek: The Last Temptation of Kirk

168. crazydaystrom - March 19, 2014

165. I am not Herbert
“Star Trek ASCENSION!! =D”
166. Ahmed
“Star Trek: The Last Temptation of Kirk”

Haha guys! I submit-
Star Trek: The Greatest Story Ever Told

No wait. No colons. It would be-
The Greatest Star Trek Story Ever Told!

Or

Star Trek’s Life of Brian

No, wait again. BR’s fourth Trek film should be the humorous one. It’s canon, you see.

Just sayin’

169. Stephan - March 19, 2014

155. I am not Herbert – March 19, 2014

“Stephan: nice try, but you don’t know what you’re talking about… ;-)”

Then please enlighten me. ;-)

170. Xplodin_Nacelle - March 19, 2014

Re: #10 Smike

Well said!!! You summed it up perfectly.

I loved the first five minutes of STID, on Nibiru. I really thought it was going to be a real strange new worlds type of story.

By the first scene of London being bombed, I knew it was another shoot ‘em up, blow stuff up motion picture.

Terrorism, & yet another Starship battle won’t draw a mainstream audience’s interest.

Please producers, make Trek III a lighthearted film.

171. Lurker - March 19, 2014

“#170
Terrorism, & yet another Starship battle won’t draw a mainstream audience’s interest.”

So let’s see, if a bunch of heroes stop a real bad guy from taking over the Earth again, the mainstream audience won’t be drawn to that? You better tell them to stop making Avengers 2 right now then.

And after seeing STID several times, I don’t remember seeing any Starship battle.

172. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@171. Lurker

“And after seeing STID several times, I don’t remember seeing any Starship battle.”

You don’t remember watching the BIG BLACK SPACESHIP (TM) USS Vengeance beats the hell out of the Enterprise ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma8-WRh3IGM

But, it is understandable, STID is a forgettable movie after all.

173. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@170. Xplodin_Nacelle

“By the first scene of London being bombed, I knew it was another shoot ‘em up, blow stuff up motion picture. Terrorism, & yet another Starship battle won’t draw a mainstream audience’s interest.”

I’m afraid that you are mistaken, my friend. The audience love shoot ‘em up, blow stuff up movies. In the summer, people go to watch action & explosions, the bigger, the better. It is the nature of summer movies.

174. Phil - March 19, 2014

Hey, new writers, don’t be too quick to blow off the comedy reviews. Some of this stuff was spot on in it’s analysis…

http://screen.yahoo.com/screen-junkies/star-trek-darkness-honest-trailers-093353749.html

175. Marja - March 19, 2014

126 Wynne, I guess you can say that I’m “bigoted” against Mormon beliefs. But religion is a choice unlike sex and color. Until the 1970s the Mormons didn’t allow black people to become elders in their church. Their stand on women and employment is old-fashioned, to put it politely, and their stand on homosexuality even worse, to the point of excommunicating their own young. That’s all okay, nobody says I have to be a Mormon. But I do have a real problem when it comes to religion affecting law and the life choices of people not affiliated with that religion.

172 Ahmed, It wasn’t a battle so much as a takedown :-p

176. Song of fire - March 19, 2014

@101. Michelle – March 18, 2014
I would like to see Kirk, Spock and MCCOY as the essential three. Uhura has driven me crazy the last two movies. She is whiny, clingy and generally overall annoying.

Also, Spock and Uhura have NO CHEMISTRY. They are basically boring.

McCoy is not ignored, but he should be a much bigger part of the story.

Also, I don’t want to see Earth in the third movie. Only outer space. Entirely on ship would be nice, but I can stand some alien planets.

Trek 2 was basically a rewrite of the first movie.
———————————————————————————————–
===========================================================
There we go again

Considering how kirk is the biggest whiner and biggest jerk of all the characters, You have no right to attack uhura and not call out Kirk as well.

He is the one that whines the most and yet gets everything handed to him, He is the one that went from suspended cadet to captain, yet you a girl have no problem with that but you tear down the female character.

Really???
the only reason why you hate uhura is because she is getting in the way of your slash shipping.

As for Spock and Uhura having no chemistry,Not even you believe that because if you did you would not find Uhura so threatening to your mcspirk dynamic.

The writers nailed their relationship in star trek 2009 in a good way but in STID it was poorly written like the rest of the film.

Next time come up with a better reason to hate on Uhura.

177. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

religion was NOT A CHOICE for me… I WAS INDOCTRINATED =(

LATER on in life (adulthood), THEN i had the free will to REJECT it

generally, you are programmed from before you are born…

but i agree that free will is “god-given” =)

if you cannot exercise free will, you cannot grow… LL&P

178. I am not Herbert - March 19, 2014

Stephan: the best i can do, is tell you that your statement is a non-sequitur
(it doesn’t make sense) good luck! =)

179. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@168. crazydaystrom – March 19, 2014

How about we combine the two titles :)

The Last Temptation of Kirk: The Greatest Star Trek Story Ever Told

180. Ahmed - March 19, 2014

@174. Marja

“172 Ahmed, It wasn’t a battle so much as a takedown :-p”

lol, yep.

I wonder if the Enterprise’s computer got a phobia of BIG BLACK SPACESHIP (TM) after the last two encounters :-)

181. Michael Hall - March 19, 2014

@ 161 Ahmed–

Thanks for the summary. Not much to go on, but I like what Payne has had to say so far. I’ve been underwhelmed by the Abramsverse, but give us a great third film and all will be forgiven. :-)

182. Dswynne - March 19, 2014

@174 (Marja): So, by your logic, you should also be anti-American because of the history of the United States towards minorities, women, homosexuals, immigrants, foreign nations, etc. Wow. Personally, I like to think that people are individuals first, and that every one of us has the capacity to grow and evolve in a dynamic way, and not be judge by the actions of one forebears. Yes, blacks weren’t allowed to be Mormons. Now, they are. Just like a number of American institutions, including the US Armed Services, blacks weren’t allowed to join as full members. Now, not only are there black soldiers, but many have risen to great heights., like General C. Powell, being the most well-known today.

My point is that a person should be judge by his or her merits, not because of one’s association, and vice-versa. You may not like Romney because he is not what you look for in a politician that you would support, but him being a Mormon has very little to to do with his politics. Sen. Harry Reid of NV, Majority Leader for the Democrats in Congress, is a Mormon, so Mormons can fall on any part of the political spectrum. But it’s just surprising that any ‘Trek fan can be prejudicial, by painting an entire group with a single brush based purely on politics. Depressing.

183. Jim Nighshade - March 20, 2014

they are reporting possibly finding wreckage from the malsysia flight off australia if so then lives are lost….if it was terrorism n they have the passengers they will probably kill them…most terrorists these days seem to prefer death n destruction n hate to hostage taking…pray for the passengers…

184. Disinvited - March 20, 2014

#172. + 178. Ahmed – March 19, 2014 ,174. Marja – March 19, 2014

Apparently, what happens in Warp, stays in Warp and all that debris K & K were dodging like FROGGER was NASA space junk still in orbit from our era?

185. Jim Nighshade - March 20, 2014

152 ahmed….hehheh kinda ironic you are tellin us its only a movie…myself n another already stated that as well….i am just so tired of all the hatespeak on here when posters n discussions here used to be mostly intelligent n polite discussing pros n cons kinda like debate 101 instead of hateful rants 101 which is all we seem to get these days…

186. Marja - March 20, 2014

180 DSWynne, So, by your logic, you should also be anti-American because of the history of the United States towards minorities, women, homosexuals, immigrants, foreign nations, etc. I think you’ve extrapolated my “logic” beyond all reason thar.

I’ve never made any claim to be perfect. And I’ve seen other opinions on this site from “broad-minded” Trek fans that have beggared my imagination. Yes, I’m prejudiced against formal religion, because of the evils people around the world have done in its name. I have personal reasons for my feelings.

Sorry to have disappointed you. Have you never been disappointed in the people on this board before? Wow.

I’m leaving the subject alone now.

187. Son of Jello - March 20, 2014

What I find so disapointing in this forum is people will back away from their stance on something out of concern of what people may think of them, Making whatever it is there saying meaningless and a pointless. It really shows that you don’t belive what you are saying. Its great to have an opinion but no one seems to be to clear on where they are going with it. It comes across as you wanting and needing someone to tell you to shut up and to tell you you are wrong Its an odd way to get reasurance obout who you are and where you fit in the world.

188. Son of Jello - March 20, 2014

Oh about the indoctoration regardless of your feelings towards Bob Orci you would all kiss his ass because hes rich.

189. Son of Jello - March 20, 2014

184. Marja

I’ve never made any claim to be perfect. And I’ve seen other opinions on this site from “broad-minded” Trek fans that have beggared my imagination. Yes, I’m prejudiced against formal religion, because of the evils people around the world have done in its name. I have personal reasons for my feelings.

It reads like you watch to much television and you trying to sound clever like a person you saw in a TV show. People on TV are not measuring sticks for us to judge ourselvs by. You need to express yourself with your own individual words and don’t try to repackage what others say. There are words in your statemant that are only heard on TV. Your not a person on TV dont use them

190. crazydaystrom - March 20, 2014

180. Dswynne
“But it’s just surprising that any ‘Trek fan can be prejudicial, by painting an entire group with a single brush based purely on politics. Depressing.”

Yeah I hear ya Dswynne. For me it’s nearly depressing but no longer a surprise. Not for a long time now. Oh well, the ‘I’ in IDIC does stand for INFINITE. You take the good with the bad. Such is life. But I do remember when Trek fandom was a much desired and greatly appreciated refuge from the negativity of the real world. It is less so anymore.

Still and yet I’ve high hopes for this next outing. 2016! Fifty years of Star Trek! And as many years of my fandom. One half of a century of loving appreciation and $ support! I think we, all of us fans, deserve something special to mark that achievement.

I almost said I had the highest hopes for the 50th but that would simply not be true. Come on BR and Paramount! “Bring it on home to me!” (as the song goes)

191. crazydaystrom - March 20, 2014

183. Jim Nighshade
“…i am just so tired of all the hatespeak on here when posters n discussions here used to be mostly intelligent n polite discussing pros n cons kinda like debate 101 instead of hateful rants 101 which is all we seem to get these days…”

Used to be…mostly…

192. crazydaystrom - March 20, 2014

186. Son of Jello
“Oh about the indoctoration regardless of your feelings towards Bob Orci you would all kiss his ass because hes rich.”

Perhaps you’re speaking about yourself Jello. I dunno. But from your statement I would infer you would be surprised than some (perhaps many, perhaps most of us would not bend that way. I’ve know and spent time with a cupplafew millionaires in me life and have never had any desire to kiss ass, figuratively OR literally.

Well-
(Full disclosure) There was this one attractive woman…
But that’s not a story for here. Bless her heart ;-)

193. crazydaystrom - March 20, 2014

*known* *my life*

194. Dswynne - March 20, 2014

@184 (Marja): Fair enough, but for the record, I not claiming that I am perfect, either. All I am saying that as Trekkie, one is obligated to become better as he or she SEEKS to understand the world around him or her. Back when I was younger, I can safely say that my religious upbringing indoctrinated me into certain ways of thinking that could be seen as a negative in a normative sense. But by embracing the concept of IDIC, I learned to let go my preconceived notions of other people, traditions and what have you, and seek the positive aspects that can be applied towards creating a better future. Yes, there are aspects of religion that is repugnant, but you can say that about a number of movements that have sprung up over the eons that have had aspects in them that weren’t so good for people, and not necessarily of the religious variety (ie. capitalism, socialism, communism, etc.). But within them all, there are hints of a desire to create a utopia that can enhance people lives, something that is admirable, even if the practical considerations are flawed. Ergo, I can separate practices of Mormonism from the individuals who partake them.

But, agreed, we’re done.

195. spocky - March 20, 2014

I realized STID was a pointless exercise once they replayed the ending from the first movie at the end. The new Star Trek should be called “Earth Rangers” – they can all take Kahn-blood vitamins, defend Earth from revenge villains and beam to other worlds via transwarp.

196. LogicalLeopard - March 20, 2014

180. Dswynne – March 19, 2014

Well said!

184. Marja- March 20, 2014

Being prejudiced against organized religion because of what people have done in it’s name would also make you prejudiced against a lot of things that people have used to excuse or further their goals. Hate the shooter, not the gun. Especially, in the case of organized religion which has been responsible for many good things in the world, and has people working silently every day to improve the lives of their fellow man. For every Westboro Baptist Church that appears to be fueled on hatred, there’s probably a thousand churches hosting free dinners for people who need them. For every jihadist with a suicide bomb, there are probably thousands of Muslims giving alms to the poor.

197. I am not Herbert - March 20, 2014

unfortunately, in this country religion is a political sledge hammer… =(

people blindly do what their church tells them to… =(

and they are told to vote republican (against their own interest) =(

IMHO “religious” people tend to be extremely prejudiced and bigoted… =(

198. Mad Mann - March 20, 2014

So. Titles. What could they possible call the next Star Trek movie? Let’s see, they won’t use numbers or colons. And it seems they want to use “Trek” as a verb in the title. And I would hope they avoid the over-used words “dark” and “rise.”

Here’s some thoughts:

“Star Trek Boldly”
“Star Trek Carefully” (sorry, but it was too easy)
“Star Trek Into the Final Fronteir”
“Star Trek From Oblivian”
“Star Trek Through Year Five”
“Star Trek Through Strange New Worlds”

I kinda like “Star Trek Boldly.”

199. Ahmed - March 20, 2014

@ 195. spocky – March 20, 2014

“The new Star Trek should be called “Earth Rangers” – they can all take Kahn-blood vitamins, defend Earth from revenge villains and beam to other worlds via transwarp.”

lol, I like that.

200. moauvian waoul - March 20, 2014

Before all you “open-minded” religious folk get sanctimonious, (whoops, too late) you should try living in Utah TODAY. …Or perhaps you already have. ;)

As far as the next movie … Not sure if they get it. There’s a fine line between homage and parody. I think they may have crossed it.

201. T'Cal - March 20, 2014

198. Mad Mann – March 20, 2014
So. Titles. What could they possible call the next Star Trek movie? Let’s see, they won’t use numbers or colons. And it seems they want to use “Trek” as a verb in the title. And I would hope they avoid the over-used words “dark” and “rise.”

Darn! I was thinking: ST: Rise from Darkness

202. T'Cal - March 20, 2014

Or ST: Darkness Rises

203. Phil - March 20, 2014

Well, Herbert, opinions are like @$$holes. Everyone has one, and they all stink.

How’s that for a platitude? What’s next, another lecture on tolerance, and how everyone who doesn’t see things your way is a sheeple?

204. Keachick - March 20, 2014

Marja has good reason to feel as she does toward formal religion and the influence it can have in politics where laws get made that affect believers and non-believers alike.

It seems that recent laws made in Uganda have been largely ignored. Uganda has instituted, or should I more accurately say, instigated, probably some of the most draconian laws to be seen anywhere in recent times. It has outlawed homosexuality and anyone, male and female, can be arrested and end up in jail (for a long time) for simply being a homosexual, irrespective of whether they are sexually active or not. Furthermore, if another person actually knows that a person is homosexual and does not report this to authorities, they can also end up in jail.

At the time those supporting the law changes were seen marching with banners “Homosexuality is a sin against God”, and other similar referring to a religious attitude/stance on why this new law should happen. This was/is about the fundamentalist Christian and Muslim groups influencing, or could it be better expressed, hijacking, that country’s lawmakers to impose their own dubious beliefs/morality on an entire population.

People can and do have agendas and some of those agendas can be anything but truly open, kind and decent.

Having said this, I am fairly sure (and can only hope) that JD Payne and Patrick McKay are also cognizant of the fact that many people of goodwill do not share their beliefs and do not want to have some law telling them what they can or can’t eat or drink, and what they do in bed and who with and in what circumstances.

Indeed, there is actually a comment made in the New Testament that reiterates pretty much what I have just said. I cannot recall the passage, but I do recall having read it. It is curious how this particular text/scripture is rarely, if ever, quoted.

BTW – I have read the entire New Testament right through – once and have read various selected passages on many other occasions.

205. I am not Herbert - March 20, 2014

Phil: you’ll just have to wait and see… ;-)

in the meantime: don’t put words in my mouth?

are you religious? republican? hmmm… ;-)

thx for your “opinion”… =)

206. LogicalLeopard - March 20, 2014

204. Keachick – March 20, 2014

Well, the thing that people forget about laws is that they ALWAYS affect people who may not believe in them. What difference does that make whether the person’s beliefs are regimented by a religious tradition, by a cultural tradition, or by other methods? You have states with particular religious affiliations that pass laws banning conduct that doesn’t conform with that religion whether it be Islam, Christianity, etc, and then you have states who have secular traditions that ban religious expression. I remember hearing that French schools were banning hijabs, crosses, yarmulkes, Stars of David, etc, in schools. Then you have countries where their traditions are just cultural traditions, but they enforce them on everyone, no matter what they believe.

You mentioned Uganda and it’s laws against homosexuality. That a Christian or Muslim edict? Maybe, but do they also ban fornication (sex outside of marriage) and adultery, and enforce the same standards? If they do not, they probably aren’t really enforcing their religion. And it probably isn’t much of a “religious” belief, rather than, “We just don’t like homosexuals.” You often notice this occurrence in many different situations, and I think it’s because people are most comfortable legislating/judging against people who commit transgressions against their norms, not their religious beliefs. In that case, you can’t blame the religion, you blame the people who are hypocritical.

207. I am not Herbert - March 20, 2014

supposedly, we live in an enlightened society: i.e. we stipulate separation of church and state (supposedly)(i’m looking at you, red states)

where supposed religion drives law, it is always a veil for hate and intolerance (i’m looking at you AZ et al)

some supposedly religious people are well-intentioned in this… but they are trying to do it by INFRINGING ON YOUR FREE WILL =(

others (republicans) are just hypocritically using religion to manipulate… =(

208. moauvian waoul - March 20, 2014

206. In the case of Uganda it was a Christian group from the United States who previously attempted and succeeded in passing a law there making homosexuality a violation punishable by death. They rescinded that law do to the international outcry.
It’s easier to agree with tradition when you’re in the majority.

209. Keachick - March 20, 2014

Logical/Leopard – You do indeed make some good points. Perhaps it can be as much that some religious tenets are hijacked by various people and used as an excuse to enforce their own hatred, phobia etc on everyone else. They manage to play on the fears and other (like not being re-elected…) to influence legislators to bring this about.

However, within a secular society such as *ours*, nobody is saying that a person cannot be a Mormon, a Catholic, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Muslim et al or be imprisoned for simply being a homosexual. Although no system is perfect and yes some of the more secular pronouncements do seem to discriminate against certain groups, it does not constitute a criminal offence to be a member of any religion per se and nor should it.

#208 – You are kidding me. My better half immediately *quipped* “American interventionism, eh!” That is just so bad!!! I guess with that little nugget of information, Marja and I really can rest our cases.

210. Ensign RedShirt - March 20, 2014

Wow. Things have gotten WAAAAAAY off topic in here.

211. Ahmed - March 20, 2014

@209. Keachick

“You are kidding me. My better half immediately *quipped* “American interventionism, eh!” That is just so bad!!! I guess with that little nugget of information, Marja and I really can rest our cases.”

You may want check the following links about the connection between American Christian group & that law in Uganda:

============================

Rachel Maddow Show – US influence helps draft Uganda anti-gay bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V10frgsoB54

How Uganda was seduced by anti-gay conservative evangelicals

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-antigay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html

212. Ahmed - March 20, 2014

@ 210. Ensign RedShirt – March 20, 2014

“Wow. Things have gotten WAAAAAAY off topic in here.”

You can blame Payne for talking about THE APPLE :)

“It’s sort of the Adam and Eve thing, where should we eat the fruit or not eat the fruit? ”

But yeah, the discussion went to a different direction overnight!

213. Marja - March 20, 2014

DSWynne, Son of Jello, Logical Leopard, et. al, My personal feelings are mine alone. I’m sorry I had the temerity to express them on the board about anything but Trek. [However I have noted a number of people who do the same, and made the mistake of feeling free to do so.] God forbid I should speak negatively of something I feel strongly about. Then I made the mistake of trying to be conciliatory with those who disagree.

Let me put it this way, folks. I dislike organized religion specifically for the use some people make of it. For the limitations they put on people who did not choose to join their specific religion. I despise it in the countries where people are beaten, put to death, and otherwise harmed because they do not adhere to the same practices as the fundamentalists among them.

I hope you will excuse my not making a thorough outline and editing my thoughts completely logically in my original post. After all, everyone at this site is extremely careful about expressing their opinions, aren’t they [sarcasm, for those who don't recognize it]. I usually do try to express myself carefully, but I was very foolish not to do so. I am probably being foolish now because I am angry. I have been judged and found wanting by people I usually respect on this board. To all of you, I apologize for having an opinion different from yours. Yes, I am a Trek fan, and Trek early on opened my eyes to what prejudice of the unreasoning can do to those who do not share those unreasoning prejudices.

I live in the state of Florida, where certain people, on the grounds of their religious beliefs, but in very careful language so as not to give that away to the undiscerning, are taking the initial steps on the way to banning abortion. Where sex education is not taught in schools, and it is forbidden for schools to provide contraception to teenagers. [Knowing teenagers, this seems to me ridiculous, but never mind all that.] Soon they may pass a state law allowing physicians, nurses and pharmacists to refuse services to those who do not adhere to their religious beliefs and prohibitions. But, this is my opinion, and the last time I intend to discuss it here. It might offend you religious folk. Or non-fiction critics.

Someone made an excellent point. Try living in Utah. i have the choice not to visit there and I will not. Ever. I feel bad for those who live there who do not believe as those who’ve pushed through those state laws do.

As for Son of Jello, I do not own a television. I read. Oh, and I check in here. Whoops.

You who have criticized me, forgive my weakness in trying to mediate with you instead of getting into a pi$$ing contest. You’re as intolerant of me and my personal opinions about things not related to Star Trek as I am to organized religion.

I appear not to have permission from several of you on expressing my personal opinion. Oh, no I am not one of the righteous. I hope y’all can find it in your great Christian hearts to forgive my terrible offense.

Bye for now.

214. Nx01 - March 20, 2014

Just write the movie and film it. It has already been another year. People are getting older. I don’t want to wait 5 years again. At this rate they are going to miss the 50 th aniversary.

215. moauvian waoul - March 20, 2014

Yeah Kea. Sad but true.
But I digress.
Back on topic! Into Darkness was awe-ful!!!
There we go!

216. Disinvited - March 20, 2014

#209. Keachick – March 20, 2014

Well, here in the States the bullying over being open about it in high school often results in a defacto death penalty when it doesn’t run its course until a death results (Often suicidal but death as the result of the direct act of others, unfortunately, occurs too.) results.

Heck I recall reading a news report on this side of the millennium on how one of my Southern states had imprisoned a heterosexual married couple for engaging in a mutually consenting act behind closed doors in their own private hotel room that was on their books as illegal as well as the same sex ones of which we speak of being against this state’s law as well.

But to bring this back to Trek, I was just as floored by that story’s revelation that more than a few of my united states have laws on the books declaring sexual activity between each of the mutually consenting individuals in a married couple, outside of a very narrowly defined norm, as illegal, as I was to read recently that, yet again, a Southern TV station engaged in the “accidental” blackout methods employed against PLATO’S STEPCHILDREN in the 60s when it “accidentally” had its commercial break extend too long so as to conveniently edit out a scene featuring a same sex married couple in a positive non-stereotypical light in one of its airings of its highest watched network drama.

217. Ahmed - March 20, 2014

@216. Disinvited

The more I watch Fox News or read conservatives sites, the more I feel that Red States are living in a different timeline from the rest of the country.

@ 214. Nx01 – March 20, 2014

“Just write the movie and film it. It has already been another year. People are getting older. I don’t want to wait 5 years again.”

I second that, just get it on with the movie & bring it out asap.

218. Ahmed - March 20, 2014

@213. Marja

Don’t feel too bad about expressing your personal opinion. Just like everyone here, you can express your views freely & others can disagree with you.

219. Curious Cadet - March 20, 2014

@212. Ahmed,
“You can blame Payne for talking about THE APPLE :)”

It’s worse than that.

Aren’t the setting up the exact same kind of moral dilemma that was at the center of STID? Seriously. We had that. Move on. One thing about Star Trek was ALWAYS its sense of self-assured righteousness. Kirk lectured the warring primitives on the virtues of the US Constitution and all was well. Kirk dies for his poor judgement, was resurrected and given a second chance. Let’s let the characters be fun and exciting again. No more internal divisive moral dilemmas. Kirk has learned his lesson. It’s time for him to take command, and his crew to follow. No more second guessing themselves and each other. Go out and blow up a supercomputer, violate the Prime Directive, but do it with aplomb for a change.

AND AHMED, you notice suspiciously now, a certain group of people have all been absent from these forums now for weeks. That’s got to be more than a coincidence. I mean a dozen DIFFERENT regular posters, all from different IP addresses, who all simultaneously stop posting at once for the same extended time period?

220. Keachick - March 20, 2014

#210 – Not way off topic – just segued a bit onto a related issue.

#212 – Marja – you made valid comments.

“But I do have a real problem when it comes to religion affecting law and the life choices of people not affiliated with that religion.”
Exactly.

One could ask why there has been so much discrimination against women, black people, homosexuality etc. I would have to say that religious values do and have played a big part in why the laws have been what they have been. Churches have condoned slavery but don’t now; many still discriminate against women when it comes to women being priests or similar – one could probably go back to one or two *gems* that the apostle Paul wrote about where women stood in the scheme of things and of course, there have been (quite ruthless) sanctions against those who are found to be homosexual in orientation. The Catholic Church still considers homosexual activity to be a sin, pointing to Old and New Testament scripture.

None of these constitute actual Law, but more often the opinion of an apostle, prophet or other, but nevertheless they have had a heavy influence on law making over the centuries affecting all citizens. It is not to say that none of the opinions/instructions given lack validity, but they are just opinion, guidelines.`

These attitudes are likely to have influenced foreign policy and which immigrants get preferential treatment. The Vietnam War took place on foreign soil where the majority of the population was made up of Buddhist peasants who could go Communist. One was pagan and the other atheistic/evil. So what if a few Buddhist peasants get napalmed. They are not like us God-fearing folk; they don’t believe as we do…Now US and other troops have been in Iraq and are still in Afghanistan – once again, they are not like us and what’s more, they’s got OIL!

US politicians win elections by appearing to be God-fearing and religious and the Armed Forces are always lifting up prayers, even if their missions can, at times, be deemed morally dubious.

This may seem simplistic but it is more radical, as in I think it goes to the root of what influences powerful politicians who can affect so many people by their actions.

221. Ahmed - March 20, 2014

@219. Curious Cadet

lol, our friend RDR is still around, as for the rest, guess they are on Spring break or something :)

222. Keachick - March 20, 2014

#216 – At the risk of writing a cliche, are you kidding me?

Anyone would think that you are a nation of peeping toms! What – is there a sliding scale whereby if she does not give him quite the right blow, she gets arrested? So there IS a right/legal way to f*ck? Gosh, you learn something every day. Never mind that I got banged up anyway…and to think my first favourite (married 12/3/1992) and me could have been breaking the law all this time…beggars the imagination…holy crap…pardon my French.

That is really quite disgusting, a bit sicko actually and I am not talking about whatever some married couple might get up to in what should be considered PRIVATE. What – do the cops need to pass good peepie exams before they get to go on the beat?

Is it any wonder that someone like Chris Pine appears so paranoid about his need for privacy and ends up doing *silly* things on foreign roads? Even though these laws may not apply to the State of California, they do represent an overall cultural mindset that allows for what is perverted and nosy. Poor b*stard!

I guess it also explains why so many people were obsessed with a *blink and you miss* sight of a Carol Marcus in her underwear. As people babbled on about how sexist it was etc, they still managed to show the *offending* scene over and over…it’s actually funny if it weren’t so sad. It seems that so many experienced a guilty pleasure at seeing someone that only peeping toms or peepie cops doing peepie duties might get to see – a job that itself should be criminalized.

223. Red Dead Ryan - March 20, 2014

Yup, I’m still here, CC! Scroll the thread and you’ll notice a couple of posts from me.

Anyway, I’ve just been chilling out here, reading the interesting conversation going on. :-)

224. I am not Herbert - March 20, 2014

…now this is how it should be! =)

…you people make me PROUD to be a Star Trek fan! =)

Peace be with you, brothers and sisters! =D

LL&P

225. Red Dead Ryan - March 20, 2014

Maybe you ought to settle down a bit, Keachick.

226. Son of Jello - March 20, 2014

192. crazydaystrom

When push comes to shove you will bend you don’t have a choice. (1% and diminishing) Knowing a few rich people in passing is hardly a strong grounding to base an opinion on. Nice attempt but ending with worrying about a pretty girl ass I hope you were not going for credability.

speaking for and about are two different things.

227. Son of Jello - March 20, 2014

192. crazydaystrom

You didn’t describe them as people you described the money they have……. Conditiond and indocterated into being poor. And greatfull to be in the presence of rich people, your betters

228. Keachick - March 20, 2014

#225 – Yeah, if you say…whatev. Seems like Son of Jello could do with taking your advice as well.

Why does Son of Jello suggest that we should/would kiss Bob Orci’s ass? Is there something about that man’s particular ass that, well, is very kissable? I need to know these things…:)

229. Captain Slow - March 21, 2014

Okay, in the Mission Log podcast Bob said that the movie should be as original as possible, have a sci-fi mystery, and focus on the Kirk, Spock and McCoy friendship.

And now JD Payne says that the movie should be about adventure and exploration with the crew having to make a very difficult decision.

To me this sounds like it could be the best Star Trek movie ever. Like classic Star Trek on a huge scale, which is exactly what is needed for the 50th anniversary.

230. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

228. Keachick

Well said Keachick missing the point as always. Its not his ass that im talking about it your relationship with him. How exciting a rich guy from the movie industry is talking to us and actually listening. Did anyone see STITD you got paid lip sevice, and so wound up with anticipation just to spend an overly long time with a movie no one will remember. Honestly its only people like you who will keep the memory of this movie alive and still no one will be listening to you. Why didnt you realise you were lying to yourself before you even went to the movie

231. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

228. Keachick

Do you honestly belive that STITD was made by people who took you or ST seriously.

232. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

213. Marja

Sorry for asking Marja, But what does that answer have to do with me?

233. Marja - March 21, 2014

Son of Jello, Your #189.

It reads like you watch to much television and you trying to sound clever like a person you saw in a TV show. People on TV are not measuring sticks for us to judge ourselvs by. You need to express yourself with your own individual words and don’t try to repackage what others say. There are words in your statemant that are only heard on TV. Your not a person on TV dont use them

As I said, I don’t own a television. I read. I have not owned a television since, hmmm, 2001.

By the way, thanks for the writing advice. I’m not sure exactly what you’re suggeesting. I use too many long words?

234. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

233. Marja

Unless your 13yo I don’t see your point. Its the way you use langage that reeks of television.

“I’m not sure exactly what you’re suggeesting. I use too many long words?”
pure TV. nobody talks like that.

“I’m not sure exactly what you’re suggeesting. I use too many long words?”

I can imagine some sitcom girl with a waitress uniform with her hands on her hips saying this line (you go girl). But the boyfriend? (insert charactor here) learns something from this pointless answer and everything is ok in the end

I would have to assume there is a lot of ST in that pile of books. Which is based on a TV script.

235. Marja - March 21, 2014

229 Captain Slow, Okay, in the Mission Log podcast Bob said that the movie should be as original as possible, have a sci-fi mystery, and focus on the Kirk, Spock and McCoy friendship. … And now JD Payne says that the movie should be about adventure and exploration with the crew having to make a very difficult decision.

In that case I’m looking forward to ST3!

236. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

233. Marja

sorry Marga to clarify

“I’m not sure exactly what you’re suggeesting (pause and cut to reaction shot boyfriend etc) I use too many long words?”

cut to comercial

Audience. Oh no know what will happen

Audience. Drinks or takes a toke

And were back

237. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

235. Marja

“In that case I’m looking forward to ST3″

rinse and repeat

238. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

For those of you wondering where Anthony is I think it kinda went like this.

Anthony is the gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEwbfnCpKA4

239. Hat Rick - March 21, 2014

This place is a mess. Matt and others are doing their best but the fact that the owner of the site is in absentia is very puzzling.

240. crazydaystrom - March 21, 2014

226. & 227. Son of Jello

Ummmm ok Jello. Evidently you’ve got it all figured out. *sarcasm*

241. Ralph Pinheiro - March 21, 2014

Payne said something about first draft in may. Is ti rigth?

242. Captain Slow - March 21, 2014

@ 241 Ralph

Lets hope so. Once there is a completed draft it is much easier to find a director.

243. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

240. crazydaystrom

*sarcastic* Apparently you needed to stop and think about it.

Ummmm

244. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

239. Hat Rick

Hey Hat Rick be grateful for this sight. If it was this one http://www.starwars7news.com/ you don’t get to say anything, especially if it has the “d” word.

245. Kevin - March 21, 2014

@241 Ralph

I think that was his timeline for the outline, the video at Trekcore has his timeline description.

246. Who cares - March 21, 2014

@Son of Jello. Man I don’t know where you live, but out here where I live, people lots of people would quite easily use a sentence just like the ones Marja used. This concept of yours that “only people on TV talk like that”, is just about the dumbest thing I have ever read from you. If you socialize with people that incapable of using basic language, I would suggest finding a new social circle.

247. Red Dead Ryan - March 21, 2014

This site is deader than week-old roadkill!

248. Phil - March 21, 2014

A couple of chimps flinging feces here, and the entire thread falls apart. What were we supposed to be talking about, again?

249. Ensign RedShirt - March 21, 2014

RDR -

There isn’t a whole helluva lot going on at the moment In Trekland.

250. Disinvited - March 21, 2014

#233. Marja – March 21, 2014

Since almost every word uttered on television is written a priory, I believe Son of Jello just accused you of writing like a writer.

251. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@ 229. Captain Slow – March 21, 2014

“Okay, in the Mission Log podcast Bob said that the movie should be as original as possible, have a sci-fi mystery, and focus on the Kirk, Spock and McCoy friendship. And now JD Payne says that the movie should be about adventure and exploration with the crew having to make a very difficult decision.
To me this sounds like it could be the best Star Trek movie ever. Like classic Star Trek on a huge scale, which is exactly what is needed for the 50th anniversary.”

We been there before with STID, when Bob & the rest promised us an amazing story. We ended up with Khan!

Not going to fall for that again, I will keep my expectations low & wait till I see the movie.

252. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@247. Red Dead Ryan

What do you think about Payne now, after reading the interviews & watching the video ?

253. Disinvited - March 21, 2014

#250. Disinvited – March 21, 2014

“a priory” should be “prior”.

254. I am not Herbert - March 21, 2014

Missing Malaysian Airlines Plane

http://goldenageofgaia.com/2014/03/21/message-from-matthew-and-ashtar-via-suzy-ward-march-20-2014-missing-malaysian-airlines-plane/

“All persons aboard the missing airliner were relocated…”

255. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

=======================

Captain America’s to-do list includes ‘Star Trek’

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/21/captain-americas-to-do-list-includes-star-trek-and-steve-jobs/

256. Hat Rick - March 21, 2014

Yeah, tired of seeing no supervision from above on this site. This could have been avoided.

Matt and Kayla and everyone else — please don’t give up.

Seriously, has anyone put out an APB (all points bulletin) to figure out where Anthony is? It’s depressing that one of the best Trek sites in the universe has fallen into this kind of super-blah status. I checked the Wikipedia and there’s nothing on this recently, although yes there’ve been times of extended absences.

It’s not even just this thread. It’s just a sense of rudderlessness. If there’s nothing else out there, then let’s maintain this as a group effort. But if Anthony is truly missing, why the hell don’t more people care?

We should care!

257. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

209. Keachick – March 20, 2014
Logical/Leopard – You do indeed make some good points. Perhaps it can be as much that some religious tenets are hijacked by various people and used as an excuse to enforce their own hatred, phobia etc on everyone else. They manage to play on the fears and other (like not being re-elected…) to influence legislators to bring this about.
*************************

Very true, in many cases certain things are hijacked, manipulated, and flat out skipped over to justify a particular course of action. Take slavery for instance. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to think, “Uhm….we really shouldn’t treat people in a subhuman way because they look different.” But since slavery is profitable, and stays profitable by treating people in a subhuman manner, there was an entire body of “science” constructed to “prove” the subhumanness of blacks. And even religious ideals were hijacked, in the case of the “Curse of Ham.” Interesting story, Ham finds his father drunk and naked (uncovered) and instead of making an attempt to cover his father and avert his eyes, he looks at him. So, Noah curses him. Or rather, his son, Caanan, saying his son would serve his brothers. So it’s not even a “Curse of Ham”, its a Curse of Caanan, which one with a bit of Bible knowledge could deduce that Noah was referring to the Caananites who were eventually conquered by the Hebrews. Nothing about black people whatsoever. But how many people were picking up bibles and finding that out for themselves? How many people were able to read, period?
**********************************

However, within a secular society such as *ours*, nobody is saying that a person cannot be a Mormon, a Catholic, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Muslim et al or be imprisoned for simply being a homosexual. Although no system is perfect and yes some of the more secular pronouncements do seem to discriminate against certain groups, it does not constitute a criminal offence to be a member of any religion per se and nor should it.

******************************

Our society may seem secular, but it was founded on religious traditions. Which makes it different from France, in which the modern state was founded as a secular nation. During the revolution, the French actually tried to redo the calendar to 10 days instead of 7 to get rid of the religious affiliation. Our country at least had a respect for religion at it’s beginning.

But really, the main thing here is that our society is also a pluralistic society. If you have an idea, or an inclination, and people support that idea or inclination, you can make it law. Religious groups are naturally organized, and thus positioned to pool resources to get laws passed. But now, even atheists are organized, and pool their resources to get laws passed. And other lobbies that have nothing to do with religion. A couple decades ago, no one supported gay marriage. Now most of the country does. That’s just the nature of a pluralistic society – you want something done, you plead your case before the public and pool your influence to gain political power.

258. Hat Rick - March 21, 2014

I’m thinking of giving up on Star Trek. For anyone who knows me, that’s a serious sign of trouble because I pretty much grew up on the whole Star Trek thing.

I know I’m just kidding myself. I’ll never give up on Trek.

But the fact that I’m writing this…. well, you just do the math.

This is damned peculiar, as Bones would say. Damned peculiar.

259. Hat Rick - March 21, 2014

I’m thinking of giving up on Star Trek. For anyone who knows me, that’s a serious sign of trouble because I pretty much grew up on the whole Star Trek thing.

I know I’m just kidding myself. I’ll never give up on Trek.

But the fact that I’m writing this…. well, you just do the math.

This is damned peculiar, as Bones would say. Damned peculiar.

260. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@256. Hat Rick

“But if Anthony is truly missing, why the hell don’t more people care?
We should care!”

IIRC Matt did try to contact Anthony several times & he even contacted Anthony’s sister to check on him but didn’t get an answer or something.

I sent him an email on July 21, 2013 to the email address provided on this site, tonyp [AT] trekmovie [DOT] com & got no reply.

It is like the guy vanished or don’t want to be found!

261. crazydaystrom - March 21, 2014

243. Son of Jello

240. crazydaystrom
“*sarcastic* Apparently you needed to stop and think about it.
Ummmm”

You make me laugh Son of Jello. Well, chuckle really. Thanks (crazy as that may sound).

262. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

213. Marja – March 20, 2014

DSWynne, Son of Jello, Logical Leopard, et. al, My personal feelings are mine alone. I’m sorry I had the temerity to express them on the board about anything but Trek. [However I have noted a number of people who do the same, and made the mistake of feeling free to do so.] God forbid I should speak negatively of something I feel strongly about. Then I made the mistake of trying to be conciliatory with those who disagree.

*********************

Hey, I don’t know what anyone else was saying, but I never said you didn’t have a right to feel the way you did. This is a forum. Ideas are expressed, challenged, defended, discussed, and learned from. *shrugs* That’s what we do. You expressed your opinion, and I expressed mine. My point could have basically been summed up to say “disliking religion for it’s negative effects is kind of like disliking guns for their negative effects” but hey, if you hate guns, you hate guns. That’s where you are. That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it.

You know, the whole Prime Directive thing is really probably one of the best, and hardest lessons from Star Trek. It’s about live and let live, even when you don’t agree with how they live. It’s a bear of a thing to actually DO though, which is why they were never able to stick to it totally in Trek *L* But sometimes intervention has horrific unforeseen circumstances, even when you’re doing “the right thing.” You just feel you’re doing the right thing.

263. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

259. Hat Rick – March 21, 2014

When you say you’re thinking of giving up on Star Trek, what do you mean? You’re giving up on all of Star Trek: meaning all the series, movies, books, comic books, toys, games, etc? Or are you just giving up on the new movies? I like the new movies, but if a person doesn’t like them, it’s hardly “giving up on Trek” if you don’t watch them. There’s plenty of good books, and old shows to watch. And if after 20 years you’re blessed enough to still be living and decide to change your mind, I don’t anticipate the movies will be gone from the face of the earth. When Voyager first came on, I watched the first few episodes, didn’t like it, and stopped watching until the later seasons, which I still watched inconsistently. But I just recently gave it another try, and I’m really appreciating the first season more than I did when I was a teenager.

So, it’s not that big a deal if you’re talking about the movies. Give up on them. *shrugs* You may, or may not come back to it. There will probably be more Trek published in one form or another to enjoy, and a massive amount of old episodes to watch. So unless the next series (I think there will be one eventually, you can’t have a property like Trek and just let it sit when people are supporting it in droves) is based in the New Universe, you’ll be fine.

264. crazydaystrom - March 21, 2014

251. Ahmed

We been there before with STID, when Bob & the rest promised us an amazing story. We ended up with Khan!

Not going to fall for that again, I will keep my expectations low & wait till I see the movie.”

Lowered expectations is probably the best defensive ‘safety mode’ for those of us who found STID other than stellar. *sigh* But as I indicated above, my expectations are only downgraded from highest hopes to merely high hopes. I’m a Trekkie and want to be awed and blown away by my beloved franchise. And I know “There are always possibilities”. Trek’s 50th should be an anniversary that’s something satisfying and something for us fans to rejoice about. *sigh* My fingers are crossed.

265. I am not Herbert - March 21, 2014

Re: giving up on trek…

i feel the same way, about the Oakland Raiders… =P

Mark Davis is not much better than Al Davis… =(

266. Cervantes - March 21, 2014

I see the writers are hinting at a storyline where there is a difficult decision to be made along the way…where there are very good reasons for doing it, and equally very good reasons for not doing it.

Sounds intriguing I initially thought…until I realised that this could just be referring to something involving blatantly breaking the ‘prime directive’ (again) for some reason…or to choosing to ‘travel back in time’ (again) for some reason. I certainly hope it’s not the latter.

Unless it’s to pre-emp ‘prime Kirk’s ridiculous demise of course. ;)

267. Cervantes - March 21, 2014

‘pre-empt’ dammit.

268. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

219. Curious Cadet – March 20, 2014
@212. Ahmed,
“You can blame Payne for talking about THE APPLE :)”

It’s worse than that.

Aren’t the setting up the exact same kind of moral dilemma that was at the center of STID? Seriously. We had that. Move on. One thing about Star Trek was ALWAYS its sense of self-assured righteousness. Kirk lectured the warring primitives on the virtues of the US Constitution and all was well. Kirk dies for his poor judgement, was resurrected and given a second chance. Let’s let the characters be fun and exciting again. No more internal divisive moral dilemmas. Kirk has learned his lesson. It’s time for him to take command, and his crew to follow. No more second guessing themselves and each other. Go out and blow up a supercomputer, violate the Prime Directive, but do it with aplomb for a change.
*******************************

Very good observation! Personally, I don’t mind if they revisit it if they do it well, but I certainly can recognize that it’s been done before. And it’s always done in the series. And yes, there’s a risk in trying to reinvent the wheel. Khan’s blood was the apple, or one of the apples, in the last movie. Unless you come up with a compelling moral dilemma and execute it in a refreshing way, you might lose some audience.

269. crazydaystrom - March 21, 2014

256. Hat Rick

“I know I’m just kidding myself. I’ll never give up on Trek…

But …This is damned peculiar…”

Pretty much how I feel Hat Rick. I keep telling myself it’s all going to be alright. And I have faith that sooner or later, one way or another, it will.

God! The new cast is so good and the sfx are so impressive! The ingredients for truly great new Trek are there. If only…if only…

It’s gonna be alright crazyday. It’s go a be ALL RIGHT! * he said to himself*

270. Keachick - March 21, 2014

Son of Jello – Stop trolling. You are being offensive and stupid.

271. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

264. I am not Herbert – March 21, 2014
Re: giving up on trek…

i feel the same way, about the Oakland Raiders… =P

*********************************************

*LOL*

You know, I do have to point out that I don’t think the JJ&CO get enough credit for separating the timeline. Many people say that they don’t consider it canon, when….really, it has nothing to do with the original timeline. If they made a new series tomorrow set post ST09, the only differences would be the destruction of Romulus and Remus, and Spock being presumed dead. And that wouldn’t keep him from presumably making a guest appearance, because he could always find his way back to the Prime timeline.

But I get what many people are feeling who are dissatisfied with it. It’s like your Raiders example. It’s not that they want to swear it off as being canon, it’s just that they support the franchise, but feel increasingly worse about giving over their dollars for a subpar product run by questionable leadership. *shrugs* I don’t feel that way, but it’s a legitimate opinion. I think it’s a slightly more aggressive version of how I felt about the Next Generation movies. They were never all that great to me. Sure, Generations was pretty good, although I would have gladly cashed it in for Seasons 8of TNG at the time without hesitation. First Contact was okay, but not stellar. Sharks were jumped the minute Picard mamboed in Insurrection. The shark had run aground and started to stink when Crusher and Troi chatted casually about the firmness of their chests. And Nemesis…well, that ellipse right there covered it.

But I don’t really think I was considering NOT spending money on it, just getting to the point where I wasn’t feeling like I was getting a quality experience at the movies. Then again, my opinions might have been different if internet culture was like it is now back then. I would go into Star Trek chat rooms back then, but they were roleplaying oriented, so I don’t think there was much scathing criticism toward the end.

272. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

264. I am not Herbert – March 21, 2014
Re: giving up on trek…

i feel the same way, about the Oakland Raiders… =P

*********************************************

*LOL*

You know, I do have to point out that I don’t think the JJ&CO get enough credit for separating the timeline. Many people say that they don’t consider it canon, when….really, it has nothing to do with the original timeline. If they made a new series tomorrow set post ST09, the only differences would be the destruction of Romulus and Remus, and Spock being presumed dead. And that wouldn’t keep him from presumably making a guest appearance, because he could always find his way back to the Prime timeline.

But I get what many people are feeling who are dissatisfied with it. It’s like your Raiders example. It’s not that they want to swear it off as being canon, it’s just that they support the franchise, but feel increasingly worse about giving over their dollars for a subpar product run by questionable leadership. *shrugs* I don’t feel that way, but it’s a legitimate opinion. I think it’s a slightly more aggressive version of how I felt about the Next Generation movies. They were never all that great to me. Sure, Generations was pretty good, although I would have gladly cashed it in for Seasons 8of TNG at the time without hesitation. First Contact was okay, but not stellar. Sharks were jumped the minute Picard mamboed in Insurrection. The shark had run aground and started to stink when Crusher and Troi chatted casually about the firmness of their chests. And Nemesis…well, that ellipse right there covered it.

But I don’t really think I was considering NOT spending money on it, just getting to the point where I wasn’t feeling like I was getting a quality experience at the movies. Then again, my opinions might have been different if internet culture was like it is now back then. I would go into Star Trek chat rooms back then, but they were roleplaying oriented, so I don’t think there was much scathing criticism toward the end.

273. LogicalLeopard - March 21, 2014

Oh, by the way, long overdue Wild ST3 Theory #1:

When he talks about “the fruit” (yes, that’s the correct term -the Bible never calls it an apple, just fruit), is he possibly referring to….DUN DUN DUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

Gary Mitchell?

The serpent said that the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would make Adam and Eve like God. Gary Mitchell developed godlike powers in Where No Man has Gone Before. It’s the first aired pilot of Star Trek. The 50th Anniversary of Star Trek is coming up. Maybe the moral struggle is whether or not Gary Mitchell has the right to exist in the universe with his powers. Maybe Gary tries to help people with his powers, but Kirk thinks he’s too powerful to be allowed to have freedom, and tries to maroon him or kill him. Also, the fact that he’s a friend would make it more of a moral dilemma.

274. Marja - March 21, 2014

248 Phil, Are you counting me as a “chimp flinging feces”? Really? I wonder why you haven’t stepped into the middle of some of the previous $hitstorms here. Holy crap. So to speak.

In fact, I think this discussion has been far lower in the “feces” quotient than many I have seen on various TM threads, usually involving MJ et. al.

Note I have not once demanded an apology, called anyone a liar, stupid, a$$hole, or any of the usual insults from those guys. But no intervention asked for when they were carrying on.

Damned peculiar.

275. Marja - March 21, 2014

256 Hat Rick, “why don’t more people care?”

I think we “gave up on caring” about Anthony after about three months. After many concerned inquiries here, and from his cohorts Matt and Kayla, no response. At all. Pretty obvious he didn’t care much about this board by that time, and by association, those of us who post here.

Unless, god forbid, he’s ended up somewhere where there is no means of communication available. Say, that Undiscovered Country ….
———————————————————————————–

Personally I hope that the next movie does not end up with the new Trek timeline “rejoining” the old timeline. Ugh. Stay in this one with myriad possibilities for new stories and without the weight of previous, encyclopedic, massive, extensive Trek mythology. Stay fresh!

276. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@273. Marja

“Stay in this one with myriad possibilities for new stories and without the weight of previous, encyclopedic, massive, extensive Trek mythology. Stay fresh!”

Stay fresh, indeed! Like they did with STID. Not only it was another bloody revenge movie but they brought Khan back as well.

I don’t have any high hope for a fresh/original story. I would be just happy to see an action movie with a story that make some sense. That is all, nothing more & nothing less.

277. Phil - March 21, 2014

@272. No, not counting you amongst the feces flingers. It’s pretty obvious who the folks are who are just repeating things they hear, saying inflammatory things just to stir the point. It’s pointless to engage them, and equally pointless to lash out in frustration, which, sadly, I’m guilty of doing on occasion. If we are to have that brave new world envisioned by Trek, it’s going to take everyone setting aside their bias, and uniting over that which they agree. So, yeah, it’s disappointing to see a few individuals blanket smearing those they don’t agree with with broad generalities, which are usually baseless to begin with. So I’ll pull up a chair and watch…

@273. Pretty sure Anthony isn’t dead. That is public information. The internet being what it is, AP hasn’t been doing much of anything on line lately. He never struck me as a prepper, but he’s definitely off the grid these days…..I do like the site. Liked it better when it was more active, and had adult oversight. AP didn’t have a lot of tolerance for feces flinging chimps….

278. Keachick - March 21, 2014

So my comment to Son of Jello about his posts, one of which was directed at me, got booted, but Logical/Leopard’s post appears twice…I’m sure it’ll get sorted soon…

OT – Chris Pine is going to be back on stage doing a play in July/August at the Massachusetts Theatre Festival. Nice.

CP’s drinking/driving offence has not gone unnoticed by NZ’s local comedians/satirists…He got mention on TV3′s Seven Days and Jono and Ben at Ten, last night (Friday, NZ time). Some of it was quite funny like (paraphrasing) – *Chris mentioned to the court his concern about being put into the small Ashburton prison because he feared a cell inmate would go where no man has been before*…then there was a comment relating to legal jargon as in “…What does “discharge without conviction” mean?… It sounds more like a half-hearted wank” and something like it is now Scotty who says “Jim Beam me up!”…:)

*As a point of fact, Chris Pine remained silent throughout the court proceedings. His legal counsel spoke on his behalf.

And the Jono and Ben at Ten show used footage from both Star Trek movies…along with a bit of ribbing…There was also mention of it being a bit of a strange time and the comment went “It seems that it is not just Chris Pine who needs to clean up his act”.

Setting aside my own bias, I do think that most people here actually like Chris Pine, especially those who had met him, but, like the Judge, simply could not ignore what he had done. He got a ribbing, but hey…

As a New Zealander, I am happy to see him come here again and I really hope he does.

279. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

Blastr brilliantly summoned Payne’s idea for Star Trek XIII

==============================

Payne said:

“We’re trying to set up a kind of situation where you really could — and not in just an ‘everything’s relative’ sort of moral relativism — you could be a good person of any creed or philosophical background and come down on both sides of how you should respond to this opportunity that the crew has…. that also has some pitfalls to it. Where you could argue very, very, very compellingly that ‘this’ is what you should do, and if you’re advocating ‘this’ then it’s actually evil.

It’s sort of the Adam and Eve thing, where should we eat the fruit or not eat the fruit? Well, there are some very compelling reasons why they should and why they shouldn’t. So, similar kinds of things here that really give the whole movie and opportunity to sort of play with that, and have people come down on different sides and wrestle with it; then come to an ending where you can walk out and say, ‘You know, I don’t know what I would do.”

Whew! That’s a lot of words to basically say, “We’re exploring moral gray areas,” isn’t it?

http://www.blastr.com/2014-3-21/star-trek-3-writer-drops-first-intriguing-clues-about-next-movies-plot

280. Marja - March 21, 2014

234 jello, You don’t know a flippin’ thing about me. I haven’t read a Trek novel in a decade. And if you watch enough television that you know how all the sitcom and other plots go, you have no credibility when you criticize me.

274 Ahmed, Stay fresh, indeed! Like they did with STID. Not only it was another bloody revenge movie but they brought Khan back as well.

I know, I know. I’m sick of revenge movies too. And big black scary ships. And Kirk getting promoted. And ….

I was speaking of the timeline alone, thar. They could definitely make better, non-revenge, non-Earth-centered, story choices for that timeline.

275 Phil, Thanks for letting me know; I hated to think of being thought a “f-f”!

I was very happy to see all of AP’s posts in the weeks before STiD opened; that involved a lot of work on his part. Regarding his tolerance for wank, it depended on the sex of the poster and subject. He was tolerant of some outrageous sexism [y'know, stuff like "nice ta-tas!"] [not to mention he posted the UNDIES! pic over and over. He was not so tolerant for those who called the sexists out. Though the UNDIES! topic wore out its welcome pretty quickly I definitely noticed a bias on his part. But, y'know, I'm a woman, and we're "supposed to put up with" rascally guys.

I think Matt is doing a good job, especially in view of his full-time work [this site was AP's main work]. I can remember some wank that went on and on during AP’s tenure.

Matt knocked off a number of mysterious posters when he took MJ off …. I guess Cygnus also got knocked off; I miss his reasonable “gentleman of the opposition” posts before he got so wanky. He made some mighty good posts about writing.

276 Rose, SonofJello’s posts seem to be non-sequiters lately. Thanks, by the way, for your support of my points re: organized religion.

‘What does “discharge without conviction” mean?… It sounds more like a half-hearted wank”’ … LOL.

277 Ahmed, They have to make it sound like they’re doing SOMETHING ;-)

281. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

246. Who cares.

Its not the people I hang with and talk to (I don’t base what I say on my Immediate surroundings). Its listening to the way people talk you can hear that people learn to communicate by watching television. Its a very limited range of words and its the same words in the same format over and over.

“I’m not sure exactly what you’re suggeesting I use too many long words?”

Use your own words to express what you need to say not what you think you should say and how it should be said. Which is where the TV dialogue comes in which is fine for Television but not for outside Nobody should want to sound like they are reading from a script or thinking that they sound clever because the person they heard say it did. What person the TV person who isnt a person at all dont take your cues from them. Because you wont sound like an actual hart pumping human you will sound like someone from TV and nobody talks like that.

Circles go round and round I don’t use them. (no offence to the wheel of course)

282. Keachick - March 21, 2014

I am not sure that anyone has been “feces slinging”. People have been forthright in their expression/opinion about issues that, albeit loosely perhaps, relate to this thread. JD Payne’s religion and his attitude toward it has come up as part of the thread posted here.

The only mention of a part of the anatomy responsible for feces production, the ass, was made by Son of Jello and a rather silly, crude, clicheed comment at that.

My comments, eg one at #277, have really nothing to do with the article posted here and subject of discussion, but hey, this is certainly not the first time, nor I suspect the last time, people might not go on a ramble (Oops…did I write ramble?) discussing other topical, but even less connected, subject matter. On the other hand, the topic that has related to Chris Pine, ie alcohol use/abuse might relate, as a contrast, to the other fact that JD Payne and Patrick McKay, do not drink alcohol at all.

I don’t intend to derail, but so much here is just mostly negative comment about STID, and people having no faith in the writers, on and on and on, regurgitated over and over, punctuated every so often with posters making crude innuendo about how I and others kiss (Bob Orci’s) ass.

Besides, as I have said before, I am not much of an ass kisser kinda gal. I am more of a front and centre kinda gal…:)

283. Red Dead Ryan - March 21, 2014

MJ and co. will be back, you can count on that.

284. Keachick - March 21, 2014

Son of Jello – Perhaps there is something mysterious happening downunder that has various people fritzing out, eg Chris Pine, Son of Jello, German tourists shitting in Christchurch redzone homes…

http://www.3news.co.nz/Video-Tourists-illegally-squatting-in-quake-houses/tabid/423/articleID/336352/Default.aspx

Whatever it is, in your case, please take it somewhere else. You are not making any sense and are being rather offensive with it.

It’s all getting to be a bit much.

285. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@281. Red Dead Ryan

Check #252

286. Red Dead Ryan - March 21, 2014

As for the topic of feces, I don’t give a sh*t. So let’s just cut the crap already. :-)

287. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

280. Keachick

a rather silly, crude, clicheed comment at that……………. I’m thinking British TV

288. Red Dead Ryan - March 21, 2014

I’m not really concerned about Payne. I don’t know too much about him or his work to form an opinion. Seems like a nice guy, but until I see something he’s written, the jury is till out on whether or not he is a good writer.

289. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@286. Red Dead Ryan

“but until I see something he’s written”

No chance of that since none of his 16 scripts are online anywhere. For Hollywood writers, there are so little information about them.

Maybe if you know someone from the Mormon church, you will get a chance to read the script he wrote for the church :)

290. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

280. Keachick

might relate, as a contrast
People have been forthright
albeit loosely
subject of discussion
regurgitated over and over, punctuated every so often with posters making crude innuendo

Im thinking documenteries and British period dramas.

I like how you went all folksy at the end so we knew it was ok for us to come back next week.

291. Keachick - March 21, 2014

“a rather silly, crude, clicheed comment at that” Yes I made that comment in relation to your entire post #230, which was specifically directed at me.
What about *my relationship* with Bob Orci? or the comment made about me lying to myself? and so on.

And what the hell has this got to do with British TV?

Right now, the only person who seems a bit too cognizant with ass is you – playing the ass card as you are.

I will say again, Son of Jello – Stop Trolling!

292. Keachick - March 21, 2014

No, Son of Jello, it is called ENGLISH.

293. Son of Jello - March 21, 2014

Keachick

That albiet loosely sounds like an interesting person. People have been forthright that he might relate, as a contrast or a subject of discussion. Puncutated every so often with crude inuendo regurgitated over and over.

294. dswynne - March 21, 2014

It’s funny how people on this board are worried about Payne bringing his religion into his work, when: a) there isn’t any evidence that he has done so in the past, and, b) there have been MANY ‘Trek themes that had religious allegories throughout the franchise. Quite frankly, it’s disgusting that we as fans are threatened by faith and religion to such a degree that we become oblivious to the point of why such allegories are used in the first place. Me thinks that Trekkies are not the enlightened fans we pretend to be…

295. Keachick - March 21, 2014

#290 – As a matter of fact, I have watched neither a British documentary nor a British period drama for a while. However, I do *confess* to watching the latest series of Sherlock – with Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman. This is a fine British series which showcases the unpredictability of the Sherlock character, as well as maintaining the impeccable standards of television production that many have come to expect from the BBC.

“That albiet loosely sounds like an interesting person. People have been forthright that he might relate, as a contrast or a subject of discussion. Puncutated every so often with crude inuendo regurgitated over and over.”

You don’t know how to use those words or grammar right,
or should I say, You don’t know how to use the words meaningfully within a proper context and your grammar is incorrect. You have only managed to construct one correct sentence. As for the rest of the comment, it is poorly constructed and does not make sense.

Now I’m gonna go shovel shit back to its owner. Hard yakka, but someone’s gotta do it!

296. Matt Wright - March 21, 2014

@ Son of Jello and Keachick — okay guys time to calm down, take a little breather here and stop feeding off of each other.

297. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@ 294. dswynne – March 21, 2014

“It’s funny how people on this board are worried about Payne bringing his religion into his work, when: a) there isn’t any evidence that he has done so in the past,”

Guess you didn’t read the interviews!

He co-wrote “Goliath”, a script based on the Biblical tale of David and Goliath. It was widely anticipated by Christian blogs, one of them said

====================
Here’s what I like about it:

It uses the Bible as a source text.
It’s building interest in Biblical stories.
The plot seems fun, and dark, and crazy and exciting.
It gives this story a fresh face by shifting perspectives.
At the end of the day, it tells the same core message of the original David and Goliath story: “God can use the least likely of heroes to triumph over evil.”

http://one3productions.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/new-goliath-script-is-awesome/

=====================

Payne is also working on “a project for the Church entitled The Last Days of Mormon (Remnant Pictures producing)”

http://mormonartist.net/interviews/jd-payne/

And he said:

“I’ll read my scriptures in the morning before starting my writing for the day to kind of get in the flow of inspiration.”

http://ldsliving.com/story/75007-to-boldly-go-where-no-mormon-has-gone-before

=====================

All these interviews & video were conducted with Mormon groups, he didn’t give a single interview with trade magazines, yet.

298. Jack - March 21, 2014

Hey, Orci. If The Amazing Spider-Man 2 is great, I’ll mail you $5. But if it’s lousy, you mail me $15.

Deal?

299. Jack - March 21, 2014

BTW, it looks like these fellas are well-versed in fiction (ducks, and sneaks out the back).

300. Marja, ruhlly ticked now. - March 21, 2014

281 Jello, So, let’s see, you think YOU sound clever? “hanging with,” ” its the same words in the same format over and over.” First, you have a little trouble writing, as seen below; you don’t seem to understand the rules of punctuation.

Use your own words to express what you need to say not what you think you should say and how it should be said. Which is where the TV dialogue comes in which is fine for Television but not for outside Nobody should want to sound like they are reading from a script or thinking that they sound clever because the person they heard say it did. What person the TV person who isnt a person at all dont take your cues from them. Because you wont sound like an actual hart pumping human you will sound like someone from TV and nobody talks like that.

Your omniscience is amazing! And I’m really enjoying the way you’re dictating what kinds of words, sentences &c. I can use to meet with your very high standards. [SARCASM]

If I say “a bit of a” that’s what I mean. You’re not being a full wanker, you’re being a BIT OF A wanker. Not the full wank. But you seem like you’re ready to blow at any time. I mean blow up, excrete a lot of wank all at once. You’ve just been doling it out so far.

I’ve had enough. Just wanted to communicate, er, say, my piece first.

301. Eric Cheung - March 21, 2014

I’ve cited movies like Close Encounters, ET, Contact, Master and Commander, and Gravity as models I think a Trek movie should follow. But I think I can sum up what I want in a Star Trek movie in two words “Nobody dies.”

Can we make that happen at least? Star Trek IV (another movie I think came the closest to what Trek on TV had been) was the only other film not to have anyone die.

I’d like to see a Trek movie like that

302. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@298. Jack

You should watch Captain America 2 instead. The reviews are in & people are impressed with the movie.

========================

Critics Salute ‘Captain America’ as One of Marvel’s Best Yet

So far, critics are almost unanimously saluting the film directed by Anthony and Joe Russo (best known for their solid TV work on “Community” and “Arrested Development”) from a screenplay by Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely (who also penned last fall’s “Thor: The Dark World”). In fact, Armon Warmann of HeyUGuys calls it “Marvel’s best standalone film yet and easily the best representation of the character on screen thus far.”

http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-news/critics-salute-captain-america-one-marvel-best-yet-024113950.html

303. Keachick - March 21, 2014

I am not sure why Ahmed is so concerned about JD Payne and his co-writer presenting a story which may be written from a particular perspective. JD Payne has been open and honest about who he is and what is important to him as a person. If his beliefs do influence the story, we will know that, because he has told us something about himself. This is a great deal more than we get to know about many other writers and producers.

A Paramount CEO will be one among others (the ones with the cheque book) making a final determination on whether or not they will sign off on any story outline presented and allow the next stage in the film’s production to go ahead. Do you any of you know who these people are, where they stand on various issues and what agendas, personal or otherwise, they may have, which could very well be a major influencing factor on whether a story gets told? I don’t!

Many people see much of the Bible itself as simply being an historical record which also entertains various myths.

304. Marja, ruhlly ticked now. - March 21, 2014

Jello, one last thing. Would you like to make a comprehensive list of the cliches that bother you?

Then I can ignore it.

-end Jello transmission-

305. Keachick - March 21, 2014

Today (NZ time) is 22 March.

How remiss of me, before now, not to extend happy birthday wishes to William Shatner who turns 83!

One of the good things about living here is that I can wish a person happy birthday twice…:)

Happy Birthday, William Shatner, who played that competent, kind, handsome captain so many years ago and then turned around years later to truly entertain me once again with the Denny Crane character (Boston Legal). Have a good one, Bill Shatner! All good wishes and blessings to you!

306. Phil - March 21, 2014

@303… Yep, it’s tomorrow. Today. And my Dodgers are playing baseball in Australia.

307. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@302. Keachick

Perhaps you can tell me why the original 90-minute interview with J.D. Payne at the LDS Film Festival was removed from Youtube hours after the video link was posted on Star Trek sites ?

The video was there on the Youtube channel of the LDS Film Festival since February 8th.

308. Red Dead Ryan - March 21, 2014

#305.

Maybe whoever posted it did so without permission or that it was only meant to be up for a limited time.

Good news on the “Captain America 2″ front. One of my highly anticipated movies of the year. Same for “Amazing Spider-Man 2″, even though I did not care for the first.

309. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

@ 306. Red Dead Ryan – March 21, 2014

“Maybe whoever posted it did so without permission or that it was only meant to be up for a limited time.”

Nope, it was uploaded by Robert Starling, a writer- producer, who is organizing the LDS film festival. There are some videos from LDS 2013 film festival still there & many other videos, so it is not about limited time.

Not to mention the timing of the removal, just hours after it went online on Trek sites, make it very

“Same for “Amazing Spider-Man 2″, even though I did not care for the first.”

I watched the first one & wasn’t impressed, going to ignore the second one. Might watch it on DVD later on.

310. Ahmed - March 21, 2014

That should be “made it very suspicious”

311. moauvian waoul - March 22, 2014

“Me thinks that Trekkies are not the enlightened fans we pretend to be…”

It could be that some here find such limitless examples of intolerance, both historically and in our daily lives, disturbing. If the religious have developed a bad reputation, they don’t have to look far for the cause. Attempting to pass laws in every state in the US and in virtually every country aimed at those they don’t deem righteous is an ugly business. And it’s not only “sinners.” Example: Back in 2010 religious groups succeeded in dissuading the national chain Lowe’s from sponsoring a television series that featured a Muslim family in a positive light. After organizing a boycott the show was subsequently cancelled. When they cite freedom of religion, I don’t think they’re referring to all religions. I’m really not too suprised that Trek fans would frown on such a long litany of intolerance. Maybe you should save some of your disgust for those who commit such acts in a creator’s name.

312. Marja - March 22, 2014

311 waoul, What really gets me is when they play “victim” to “religious oppression.” When their religion has ruled the Western world for a millenium.
————————————————-

Okay folks let’s remember J.D. Payne’s writing partner’s name, Patrick McKay. Mr. Payne’s gotten a lot of attention on this thread [because he did an interview], but he’s said how important their writing partnership is [they've been writing together for over a decade]. So as someone who appreciates writers and acknowledgement, I wanted to say “Kudos!” to Patrick McKay too.

313. Disinvited - March 22, 2014

#311. moauvian waoul – March 22, 2014

About as much amazement for me to realize how many of those regularly hear the story of “The Good Samaritan” in their hallowed halls and yet so obviously miss and/or ignore its point.

314. moauvian waoul - March 22, 2014

Marja- ;)
Disinvited- …or Love Thy Neighbor.

315. T'Cal - March 22, 2014

The writers aren’t going to listen to us, the most splintered group of “fans” any franchise has ever had. They simply can’t satisfy us, but they have a shot at satisfying the movie going audience. They will write what they want to write, as they should. Have at it, gentlemen, and I will be there to watch the final product.

316. Allen Williams - March 22, 2014

I though 2009 was good. The second one felt like 50% star wars and 50% rip off of wrath of khan. I thought it was entertaining, but by far the worst star trek movie I’ve ever seen. Make it more trek like and make it original. If you do that you’ll have me for Star Trek 13 (its not 3 so screw anyone that says otherwise)

317. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@312. Marja

“Okay folks let’s remember J.D. Payne’s writing partner’s name, Patrick McKay. Mr. Payne’s gotten a lot of attention on this thread [because he did an interview], but he’s said how important their writing partnership is [they've been writing together for over a decade]. So as someone who appreciates writers and acknowledgement, I wanted to say “Kudos!” to Patrick McKay too.”

Payne & McKay wrote about 16 scripts, we don’t know anything else about him. Payne called him the Irish guy in the interview :) & I guess he is not a Mormon.

I tried to find any interview with Mckay but nothing so far.

318. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@ 315. T’Cal – March 22, 2014

“The writers aren’t going to listen to us, the most splintered group of “fans” any franchise has ever had.”

That is a myth. Just go to Star Wars fansites or Lost, BSG & you will see the same thing over there. People are not alike & they shouldn’t be.

“They will write what they want to write, as they should. Have at it, gentlemen, and I will be there to watch the final product.”

Good for you, guess you are the type that will watch any movie regardless of the story, as long as it has relentless action, right ?

If that is the case, I’ve good news for you. Transformers 4 is coming out this summer, you better book your ticket now.

Here, take a look at upcoming summer masterpiece

Transformers Age of Extinction – Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HPIH5JCak

319. Dswynne - March 22, 2014

@297 (Ahmed): People here were already making the case how they would be offended if Payne’s perspective influences his writing BEFORE you posted your evidence. My comment was based on that dynamic. Also, my overall point still stands: any one who is offended by having religious themes in ‘Trek forget that the franchise had many such things, and are not the enlightened fan that he or she thinks he or she is. A good story is a good story and if a moral could be learned that enhances the ideas of ‘Trek, all the better. I just hope that Payne, who is working with Orci, will be able to come up with a story that will advance GR humanistic themes.

320. Dswynne - March 22, 2014

@311: Thing is, the boycott by a private group is perfectly legal under our US Constitution, just like it is your right to do the same. My only problem in this discussion how it is acceptable to stereotype a class of people based upon the actions of a few. Christianity and religions have many denominations with their own interpretation of their scriptures, and people tend to forget this. Not every Christian group will promote homophobia; just compare the differences between Baptist and Methodists, for instance. I know it’s hard at times to make such distinctions, being human and all, but growth is a trying experience, and part of that growth is being aware of our own weaknesses. Otherwise, why bother perfecting society if we’re not going to be better ourselves?

321. dennycranium - March 22, 2014

While I understand it’s show business- you need to get bums in the seats- please honor the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic.
Please respect what came before- if you can beam someone down, you can beam them back up.
The ship can travel to warp 9.
It shoots phaser beams-not spitballs.I know this is nitpicking but it jars me out of the Trek universe I know.
Think of it as a baseball diamond. We don’t pitch from second base or run to third first.
Keep Kirk on his feet. He was on his ass too many times in the 90210 installment.
Action, while necessary- should serve the story and not be gratuitous.
Have an intelligent well fleshed out bad guy/s
I was sooo disappointed with Star Trek 90210.
Please get it right this time.

322. steve-o - March 22, 2014

Happy Birthday William Shatner! I WAS SUPRISED to not see a special article in celebration of the Shat.

323. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

Happy Birthday William Shatner :-)

324. Keachick - March 22, 2014

Ahmed – “Good for you, guess you are the type that will watch any movie regardless of the story, as long as it has relentless action, right ?
If that is the case, I’ve good news for you. Transformers 4 is coming out this summer, you better book your ticket now.”

This is what I would describe as sort of clicheed, because these sentiments have been repeated so often in the past by so many. The comments above are also presumptuous and distort what the previous poster actually wrote. This could also account for the outburst of a certain writer about what the same poster quoted above said at an earlier time.

So tired of this sort of, if I may quote an actor (who shall not be named), “…nonsense and b******t”.

I see it is 22 March, so Happy Birthday, William Shatner!!!

325. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@324. Keachick

What, you don’t like Transformers 4 ? Shame on you :)

326. moauvian waoul - March 22, 2014

320. Not trying to indict all religious people. I’ve known too many. Explaining why some good folks have reservations, and rightly so. You can choose to ignore it’s legacy if you want.

More pressingly: I thought there were attempts by the writers to implement some of the ideas fans have expressed in this site, an I appreciated them. I just thought the film failed in so many ways it never mattered. That’s what made me wonder if they really getTrek. Not that we here could agree on what Trek is. ;)

327. moauvian waoul - March 22, 2014

320. …but I wouldn’t entirely disagree with you.

328. Son of Jello - March 22, 2014

315. T’Cal

If all they are doing is making a movie why make a ST movie? That’s right ST is franchise (comodity) so they don’t really have to do anything.

Why are you looking foward to a bunch of lazy writers taking your money?

are you sure your not a confused SW fan?

329. Marja - March 22, 2014

319 Wynne, This is a problematic discussion because it touches on closely-held sensitivities. I will use an example of why I feel as I do by citing an example from Star Trek.

DS9 explored the influences of religion. For KiraNerys, religion was a comfort, something she could rely on when her heart was troubled. She loved the other people of her religion and would support them. The character Kai Wynn, however, was an examination of the perversion of religion to the ends of power. THAT is my primary objection to organized religion: that people who act like Kai Wynn, who believe they can use their position to wrest power from the people who don’t understand the terrible, selfish intents beneath her veneer of respectability. She uses her position of power and respect to pervert her own religion.

Your 320, Let us just agree that there are “so-called Christians” and “real Christians.” The former believe in shoving their particular set of beliefs down others’ throats [demonstrating with hateful slogans at military funerals, making pronouncements about God punishing the US], to the point of using our US government, military power and tax dollars to achieve the “Pax Americana;” to stop the freedom of choice of individuals; to change the US government to the point of ending “entitlements” for the working poor, the old, the sick, and those who’ve served in the US military. They are perfectly free to practice their beliefs without interfering with the rights of others, but they insist on interfering with the private lives of other people.

In my own life, I practiced a more benign form of fundamentalist Christianity, which lasted the whole time I read thru the New Testament [the teachings of Christ] until I read the Old Testament [in which, IMO, God behaves like a jealous, homicidal teenager]. Since believing in the entire Bible was a tenet of the religion I was practicing, I had to leave because I had repugnance for, and a deep philosophical difference with, the OT.

I came to realize that Truth has many forms for many people, and one “truth” should never be imposed on others. I object with all my heart to people like Paul Ryan, who use their so-called Christianity to forward a selfish agenda. I love those religious leaders who have stepped forward in favor of human rights.

I have no objection to boycotts in principle, but the example of Lowes used above shows how so-called Christians can demonstrate their own bigotry with little objection from the majority. Imagine if a group of Muslims had done the same thing against Christians!

Suffice it to say that I believe that “Star Trek” should treat religion from an objective point of view. Whether certain characters admire or practice religion should be something private.

330. Marja - March 22, 2014

And now, back to our regularly scheduled Star Trek discussion

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WILLIAM SHATER!

Still going strong, god bless him!

331. Basement Blogger - March 22, 2014

I listened to the whole J.D. Payne lecture about a week ago or so. There is news. Trekcore put the last few minutes of the lecture on its site even though the whole lecture was deleted. Here’s my review of his lecture.

1. He’s a Trekker. Yeah, he named dropped TNG’s “The Best of Both Worlds.” He also used the term “bat’lteths.”

2. He recognizes that Star Trek may raise ethical questions.

3. He knows and likes jazz. Okay, that’s more along my interests but he talked about John Coltrane. Which means, Mr. Payne, you’re getting on my good side.

4. Hollywood screenwriting for big budget movies is very conservative, even when it comes to font. By the way, it’s courier for you aspiring screenplay writers. Syd Field was right.

5. He’s a devout Mormon. Well, come on he’s lecturing at a Mormon film festival. Hold on. There’s Mormon cinema? I gently tease the Mormons. Oh by the way, there is Mormon film.

The question becomes does it effect his writing. He talked about the difficulty of being asked to write a scene that had a sexual assault. That would be difficult for anyone. But then he talked about how a gay person’s reaction to him when he found out he was a Mormon. Remember that Mormons are opposed to gay marriage and led the fight to make gay marriage illegal in California. So don’t expect him to write the screenplay for “Shades of Grey, the Sequel” or the film adaption for “The Book of Mormon.” For that matter don’t expect him to work with Trey Parker and Matt Stone. (creators of South Park and the episode “All About Mormons”, Orgaz……o, and The Book of Mormon)

I can’t see his devout faith interfering with Star Trek unless there’s an explicit sex scene or some type of negative take on Mormons. But was the lecture taken down for the gay comments which were not controversial at all? I found nothing negative about them.

6. There was a competitive process for the new guys to assist Bob Orci. They had to compete with other writing teams.

7, Here’s the big news. Paramount accepted the writing team’s pitch. I assume that Orci was a major part of the process. Anyway, they are to produce the first draft of the script in May. That came at the one hour, twenty five minute mark. Trekcore has that part below.

Important stuff. Bob has mentioned that there is no director yet because there’s no script. A good script may lure a director who has the ability to work with script approval.

Trekcore latest video of Payne lecture.

http://trekcore.com/blog/2014/03/video-jd-payne-offers-hints-to-star-trek-3-plot-describes-moral-dilemma-for-enterprise-crew/

332. Marja - March 22, 2014

dang typos, sorry!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WILLIAM SHATNER!!

333. Son of Jello - March 22, 2014

324. Keachick

relentless action
you better book your ticket now
because these sentiments
account for the outburst
repeated so often in the past by so many

334. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@ 330. Marja – March 22, 2014

“dang typos, sorry!”

“SHATER” in Arabic means smart, so you are spot on :)

335. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@331. Son of Jello

“relentless action
you better book your ticket now”

These are my words, not Keachick. Guess that make me a TV person as well :)

336. Son of Jello - March 22, 2014

333. Ahmed

Don’t read them line by line they belong to me know.

337. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@336. Son of Jello

LOL

338. B Kramer - March 22, 2014

Happy Birthday to the one and only Bill Shatner: the original caesar among the stars & originator of the classic Captain Kirk swagger.

Congrats on your new show and being 83 yrs young. Keep boldy going strong and inspiring us. All the Best.

(And go Habs go. ;^)

339. Ahmed - March 22, 2014

@331. Basement Blogger

Great summary, thanks a lot. I only managed to watch the first 45 minutes & the next day it was removed from Youtube!

“I can’t see his devout faith interfering with Star Trek unless there’s an explicit sex scene or some type of negative take on Mormons. ”

So, no more foursome for Kirk this time, come on :)

There is no reason for a Trek movie to have a negative take on the Mormons, my concern is the opposite.

“Important stuff. Bob has mentioned that there is no director yet because there’s no script. A good script may lure a director who has the ability to work with script approval.”

What Bob said here doesn’t make any sense at all. If it was the case, then why they were talking with Cornish back in May & later in December ? Also, studios do hire directors sometime before there is a script.

340. moauvian waoul - March 22, 2014

You know, I too learned how to talk watching tv. My parents warned me not to watch too much but I enjoyed Star Trek particularly. Now…I…speak…like…this… with…random…dramatic…pauses…sprinkled…constantly…throughout…my…sentences.
“I…Am…Captain…Kirk!!!”

341. Son of Jello - March 22, 2014

The homophobia in devout people shows there is a big percentage of humanity where love is denied and human interaction between people is not allowed or acknowledged. We all no the lengths religion will go to to deny others their humanity. And there expecting this guy to wright about it.

342. moauvian waoul - March 22, 2014

341. Insightful.

343. Jack - March 22, 2014

Aside: Trek #31 was sorta fun. A Watchmen reference plus the classic ‘the ship is alive!’

344. Jack - March 22, 2014

Thanks Ahmed. It looks good. The trailer alone is more compelling than the entire season, so far, of Agents of SHIELD.

345. Marja - March 22, 2014

331 Bernie, Well, there’s a point in Payne’s favor, he likes jazz!

[I'll be interested to see if Parker and Stone do a satire of Trek3 ... South Park's "Mormon" episode was hilarious, as was their take on other religions in the "religion camp/magic Dreidl" episode :-D

BUT ... Now I'm worried: is the movie only going to run 1:25??

Or is that just the projected time for actually having actors speak words? Meaning, YIKES, 20-25 minutes of ACTION ACTION ACTION?

Yes Jello, 'relentless action' [that is how the moviemakers and stars described it in the publicity].

In any case, LESS THAN TWO HOURS??? wtf

Someone help me understand this … I hope to heck the movie is AT LEAST two hours long, I’d rather 2:15 or 2:25 …. [sigh]
—————————————————-

341 Hello Jello, We can agree on that, most definitely. My dear friend of 30 years had to keep his sexuality a secret from the military, in which he served with distinction [military terminology] for 23 years. He could not let them know b/c he might have been kicked out. Have you ever heard how many superb US military Arabic translators were kicked out during the Iraq war b/c they were gay? Now THAT was stupid.

346. Captain Slow - March 22, 2014

@ 339 Ahmed

“What Bob said here doesn’t make any sense at all. If it was the case, then why they were talking with Cornish back in May & later in December ? Also, studios do hire directors sometime before there is a script.”

A script isn’t required for a director to sign on (see J.J. and Star Wars) but a lot of directors wouldn’t be willing to sign a contract unless they know exactly what they’re being asked to do. So Cornish (and Rupert Wyatt, if that rumor was true) may have said “Let me see a script.” and they told him that it won’t be ready until May, and so he left for more immediate work.

347. Son of Jello - March 23, 2014

I wonder what the alternate universe William Shatner did for his birthday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AphxyjrH4SE

But for real with C.P.

348. Son of Jello - March 23, 2014

I have a good idea for a William Shatner TV show where ST fans come to settle their diffirences.

It would be called “Shatnerdome” two fans enter one fan leaves.

349. Hat Rick - March 23, 2014

This thread is becoming unwieldy. I’ve only looked at a few postings in the last minute or two, but I came across T’Cal’s, which said, if I might summarize, that since the fan community is so fragmented, the writers will do their own thing to appeal to the movie-going audience. I think that that’s a wise comment.

The problem with Trek now is that it is truly rudderless. There is no guiding personality for it. Abrams has moved on to do Star Wars. The previous leadership, the TNG / DS9 / VOY / ENT generation, have lost power and aren’t likely to resume the mantle. The classic generation has largely become unavailable.

So, honestly, there is no captain of the ship, which I think is symbolized by this site itself.

There are fan productions — much in the way that there are individual stewards of this site. In fact, the Trek – TrekMovie parallels are striking.

And by the same token, fans are puzzled and unhappy, and wondering if they’re wasting their time.

Trek is still one of the biggest entertainment franchises out there, but the value of leadership is not to be underestimated. At this point, the closest we have to that are the writers, but — with all due respect — they are not making their influence felt as leaders, but as hard-working officers who seem to be awaiting direction from some sort of central command.

If central command consists of corporate leadership, then perhaps Trek will turn out — not strangely — to be a corporate product after all, first and foremost. And that’s a bit sad.

350. Son of Jello - March 23, 2014

348. Hat Rick

I don’t agree with T’Cal the writers were left to their own devises and we got JJAST1 and JJAST2 both of which are style over substance. And she still wants more. Which is why I asked her if she was a confused SW fan

Abrams was at the tiller and crashed on the rocks and made a speedy exit to SW (which is where he wanted to be in the first place) leaving the crew to explain what happened. (but like lost who knows, cares or wants to remember) J.J.A. was never really concentrating on what it was he was steering (like C.P. driving a car) or where it was going.

Leadership is overestimated (leadership is a romantic dream) the last leader didn’t care and didn’t want to really be there which is why ST is in the mess it is in now. Having people standing around waiting for leadership sends the ship to the ocean floor.

ST has from the day the first scene was shot has been corporate it is financed by a corporation for the perpose of making profit.

The ST we have know is overstated but if left alone to be what it is (small time niche TV) then it has the ability to be what it is subversive with its ideas and story instead of the overblown pompus windbag that it has become.

351. Cervantes - March 23, 2014

@ 347 Son of Jello -

Nice. Between an ‘Amok Time’ intro. theme and Bill throwing his 2 cents in, that already sounds like it could be a lot more fun than some of the dross on our screens these days!

@ Everyone in general –

The occasional overuse of ‘lens flares’ aside, J.J. was certainly able to shoot some good-looking sequences…although he unfortunately managed to include a lot of things that quite a few of us thought were dubious, or would have been better left on the cutting room floor.

But I remain of the opinion that a franchise only needs a *certain type* of ‘teamleading’ director with a passion for the subject matter to steer it’s next instalment into something really special…and something that most of us will be really happy with overall. But it needs to be someone who’ll try and encourage the studios and writers to completely disregard any of the more groan-worthy notions that they may come up with.

However, whether it’s a complete unknown or not, it will be pure pot luck if we end up with someone like this…as even talented ‘A-list’ directors such as Steven Spielberg and Ridley Scott are just two examples of the many experienced directors out there that are capable of very mis-judged moments sometimes. But hopefully, the studio will choose a director who can move things forward in some kind of intriguing and impactful way for the next movie.

Even the (as yet) little-known Gareth Edwards seems to be successfully doing for the ‘Godzilla’ reboot – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBwsUD7jYCI I have a feeling this will have a wholly different vibe to the earlier Roland Emmerich version, and the same will eventually come with a future Trek instalment, I’m sure.

The current nu-cast has worked out pretty well overall, but good choices for storyline and dialogue is definitely required…*no matter* how good a ‘visual’ director is. For anything that aims to be more substantial than a one-off ‘popcorn’ viewing, that is.

(If not, I can always add the next one to my list of previous entries I’m currently having to ‘fan edit’ to my own preferences, too) ;)

352. T'Cal - March 23, 2014

The point I am making is that the writers shouldn’t listen to us as they will never please even a majority of us. I want quality work as much as the next ST fan. Unfortunately, so many here are so bitter about the latest itteration of Trek that they have written it off despite it being incredibly successful, much more so than the last two film versions. I have enjoyed them a lot, STID even more than the first since that one had a lot more plot holes.

Yes, I am committed to attending the next Trek movie – not because I just blindly take anything Trek, but because I form my own opinions. I don’t rely on a bunch of whiners who see any change in their Trek universe as blasphemy. Thank God the internet was not around during the beginning on TNG as it would’ve been cancelled due to the rampant negativity of Trek’s own fans. Then none of these conversations would be taking place since Trek would just be a bunch of elderly TOS diehards. Trek evolves, gains new fans, and loses some old ones. Or they end up here whining.

I’m hoping for another successful movie.

353. Cervantes - March 23, 2014

@ 351 T’Cal -

I can only imagine some of the comments about that new ‘Star Trek TNG’ thing, if folks had been been able to vent online at the time…

…I’d have been one of them! ;)

I certainly hope for another successful movie though, and not merely in box-office terms. There’s been plenty of movies over the years that haven’t deserved their financial success. But I remain optimistic that something better is still possible from this current ‘timeline’, depending on who’s directing and writing going forward.

354. Dswynne - March 23, 2014

@326: It’s not about ignoring anything; it’s about putting things into their proper perspective, and I seriously doubt that someone like Orci would feel comfortable in working with a zealot, if said person was insistent on injecting his or her religion into their work. And personally, I am sick of this hand wringing that occurs whenever religious and spiritual themes are brought up. Trekkies should not be afraid of tackling tough issues while doing so with a smile and a sense of confidence. After all, we’re suppose to be bold, yes?

355. Dswynne - March 23, 2014

@329: Marja, I am not going to respond, since you have indicated that you were done with this topic. However, I do want to thank you for contributing your thoughts nevertheless.

356. Ahmed - March 23, 2014

345. Marja

“BUT … Now I’m worried: is the movie only going to run 1:25??

In any case, LESS THAN TWO HOURS??? wtf

Someone help me understand this … I hope to heck the movie is AT LEAST two hours long, I’d rather 2:15 or 2:25 …. [sigh]”

He was talking about the original 90-minute video that is no longer online, not the length of the next movie.

357. Optimistic Doodle - March 23, 2014

I wonder how exactly Star Trek 3 will translate the 50th (Original) Anniversary…

358. Son of Jello - March 23, 2014

352. T’Cal

The point I was trying to make was the latest STs are a bombastic mess. Sure the last few treks before JJ are not that good but they were ST. Im not asking them to listen to me and make a ST movie that I want to see.

The information about ST and what it is about and how it should be handled goes back nearly 50 years. If you cant look at the source material and see what it is you are working with and taking that on board then your just making a movie which is what JJ did and what you are asking for.

Just a movie about nothing but big audience and big return which has nothing to do with ST.

And to be clear they don’t have to listen to us and give us what we want, they have to listen to ST which quite clearly they haven’t done. If you want money and profit you cant take an accountant’s approach because that mindset does not fit ST.

3rd time lucky, Are you a confused SW fan flash blinded and dazed from 9 hrs of prequal light sabers (oops sorry G.L. lazer swords)

359. Keachick - March 23, 2014

Opinions vary as to whether the latest Star Trek films are a “bombastic mess”.

#358 – to T’Cal – “Are you a confused SW fan flash blinded and dazed from 9 hrs of prequal light sabers (oops sorry G.L. lazer swords)” (you forgot the question mark) What?

I like to think, am hoping, that this is the kind of comment (quoted above) that Chris Pine might have been referring to when he said, “…internet…spew nonsense and b*****t.”

360. Karl X - March 23, 2014

We need more depth and story telling. I won’t mind a 2 hour 30 minutes film to see this and actually have the characters interact more. I don’t like the excessive fast pacing of STID and the shallowness that went with the film.

361. Keachick - March 23, 2014

#329 Marja – BINGO! You are right. What some of these people do appears not to be even consistent with guidelines given in the New Testament by people like the Apostle Paul. The Book of Romans?

I agree – Most of the Old Testament is horrible.

362. Basement Blogger - March 23, 2014

A few more things about Payne’s lecture…

@ 339 Ahmed

Payne talked about the lack of originality in Hollywood, he kind of defended it. He brought up the idea that Shakespeare’s plays were not original except for The Tempest. This kind of went along the lines to screenplay writing. He talked about the first twenty or so minutes of a movie, there must be some kind of action. I did not take that to mean explosions.

But just read and study Syd Fields’s book on screenplay writing. The first twenty minutes must have some kind of action. There are plot points that cause the action to move forward. Nothing new to screenplay writing. That’s why I bought a copy of the screenplay to MASH because to me, it was a little outside of the box. Regardless, nothing new in his lecture to anyone who studied screenplay writing. It’s very conservative. And yes, use the ancient font of courier.

He talked about Goliath. Yes it’s about that Goliath. First, it was about taking stories that had no one had rights to and turning them into movies. Goliath was the Terminator according to Payne. He talked about turning the tale of Midas into a movie. The most interesting film he worked on was the future adaptation of “Boilerplate.” based on a website and comic. The way I remember it, was that Boilerplate was a robot built to fight wars so there would be no human losses. Payne talked about the robot and human interaction, i.e. feelings between the two. Let me put it this way. It sounds like a great idea for a movie. Was it this, that led to LDS video being taken down?

Overall, it was a very interesting lecture. By the way, Payne’s a physics major. I wish I was there. Being a Christian, the Mormon stuff went over my head. He seemed like a very nice man. He was willing to entertain questions after the lecture and he must now be getting inundated with screenplay pitches. He said he couldn’t read them. Can’t blame him. There are always legal concerns.

@ 345

Marja,

Yeah, Payne talked about John Coltrane. Kind of floored me. It had something to do with the language of writing. But it was clear he studied jazz and liked him. Makes it hard for me to dislike Payne even if I think Paramount is treating us badly by dumping new, cheap writers on us. But you know what James T. Kirk said,

“Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.” Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock.

As far as Stone and Parker, the South Park episode “All About Mormons” was funny. I’m sorry if it made fun of the Mormon religion. But if you watch the episode, the actual Mormon characters come off as very nice people. The movie Orgaz….o , (1997) is about Mormon po….n star. That Mormon is portrayed as a good guy. I have not seen “The Book of Mormon” but would like to since it won the Tony for Best Musical.

Let’s hope the first draft of the screenplay due in May will be great. I hope it’s so great that Paramount will be able to lure a major director. Hey they’re saving money with writers and will film out of California. Maybe Paramount will give Star Trek’s fiftieth anniversary film, the directorial talent that it deserves.

363. Dee - lvs moon surface - March 23, 2014

#361 Keachick

I’m very concerned about, if you know what I’m talking about! You know I’m not talking about the old testament!

364. Keachick - March 23, 2014

Mormons would consider themselves to be (Protestant) Christian as well, except that they have done some add-ons to what they consider “biblical”, whereas the Protestants did some subtract-outs, which means that the Protestant bible is shorter than the Catholic bible.

All I can say, everyone should be grateful that English-speaking countries, at least, are by and large, secular and should remain so!!!

I do not want or need to be some religious bureaucrat what I may believe…I am a Free Spirit!

365. Ahmed - March 23, 2014

@364. Keachick

“All I can say, everyone should be grateful that English-speaking countries, at least, are by and large, secular and should remain so!!!”

Perhaps you should go to red states first before you make that statement!

366. Marja - March 23, 2014

333 Jello, Free form poetry! I like it.
————————————————————–
358 Jello, Movies are Big Business. We’ve talked about it on this forum and a year or more ago, director Steven Spielberg made public his concern about this. For a movie to succeed it has to “hit” all the “points” on the “movie audience expectation meter,” if you will. When it comes to financing productions, film studios want something that will “hit” the audience in such a way that they’ll come back for repeat viewings and buy the DVD and so on. This is part of why it seems to us that Trek has “lost its soul” in the movie iterations. No, not really, it’s trying to win a huge audience [and a great many non-Trek fans] to please the corporation which placed its “million-dollar” bets on it.

I give O&K credit for putting socio-political themes into STiD, even though they got subsumed a bit in the final cut, cue RELENTLESS ACTION. And there was character growth too, for Kirk, particularly [whew] and for Spock. They spread the heroism around a little, some for Kirk, some for Spock, some for Uhura, some for McCoy [but not enough], and some for [yay!] Scotty. Chekov got to pull someone to safety and try to rescue the engines … [huh?] And Sulu got to sit in the big chair and be implacable. Thing is, Trek has a lot of characters, so the writers did pretty well in giving each some “moments.” In a TV series, we’d see these characters getting featured in rotation over the hours, writers wouldn’t have to cram in a bit here and a bit there.

So, it’s not that anybody wants “soulless Trek” or “Trek that’s not up to our vaunted standards,” it’s that we want Trek to be a success [many here count it as a hollow success] and survive long enough, and attract audience enough, to move to TV.

352 T’Cal, yes, thank heavens the internet was not around at TNG’s outset, because the first two seasons pretty much sucked. So, let’s see, that’s about 50 hours of television before we saw some really good episodes? NuTrek has only had four hours ….

356 Ahmed, thanks! I looked at Bernie’s post about it … “the 1:25 mark” is another example of Our English Language In Action — there’s always room for confusion ;-)

360 Karl X, SECONDED! Let’s have a longer movie and more Enterprise crew interactions!

Wynne, it was a good discussion. Thanks.

367. Keachick - March 23, 2014

#365 – I should have qualified that statement.

Way too many peeping toms masquerading as people of religion and conscience.

This reminds me of a conversation I had a while back with a Catholic who was going to a meeting to try to stop the Civil Union Bill from being passed, allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally formalize their relationships. He asked me if I was interested as I often attend Mass. I said, “No. I am not interested. It is nobody’s business what other people choose to do in private.” He was concerned that this would cause further marriage breakdown in society. I said that it is not gay people who are getting separated/divorced. It is married people who either made a mistake in the first place by marrying that person or have lost the plot along the way, etc…

Basically, I see a lot of this legislation as being a bit unholy and invasive. It really should be a case of telling some of these religious fundies to mind their own business because, if they are like the rest of humanity, they will have more than enough business of their own to mind!

368. Keachick - March 23, 2014

Edit my post #364 -
“I do not want or need to be some religious bureaucrat what I may believe…I am a Free Spirit!”

I mean to say – I do not want or need to have some religious bureaucrat tell me what I may believe and how I might express this…I am a Free Spirit!

369. I am not Herbert - March 23, 2014

Detective Dee and the Mystery of the Phantom Flame

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70153561?strkid=2040688437_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70153561

When unexplained spontaneous combustions kill a pair of dignitaries in 7th-century China, Detective Dee is called on to solve the mystery.

Tsui Hark kicks ass! =)

370. Phil - March 23, 2014

@331. Good job, Bernie, digging that nugget out. That got buried in the TrekCore synopsis, and hints at a 3rd quarter 2016 release.

371. Disinvited - March 23, 2014

#366. Marja – March 23, 2014

There’s BIG business with its focus on mass markets and then there’s:

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_bet/2014/03/kickstarter_neil_young_veronica_mars_how_hard_core_fans_drive_the_entertainment.html

the HARDCORE fans who drove/drive the business:

”When 3 million of us pledged $480 million to Kickstarter projects in 2013, we didn’t establish any new industries or shake up any old ones. Instead, we identified ourselves as the early adopters: the hardcores, the überfans. We’re the kind of people who, in absence of Kickstarter, would have bought the special edition of a Veronica Mars DVD or paid extra for better seats at a Neil Young concert. We’re the kind of people who download all the value-added content in our favorite video games. When something’s labeled “collectible,” we’re the ones collecting it.

We’ve always been around, and we’ve always spent big on our favorites. Historically, however, we’ve been hard to find. There’s been no precise means for figuring out how many of us exist for any given show, artist, game, or movie. For years, TV networks, record labels, game publishers, and movie studios have made educated guesses about our size and our spending power. They’ve counted up special-edition sales. They’ve noticed who buys concert merchandise and who doesn’t. They’ve tuned into our message-board debates and Comic-Con meetups. But they haven’t really counted us, so much as they’ve counted on us, as influencers of the broader market—emissaries of geekdom on missions to Middle America.

These days, we are the market. We make up a fraction of the total audience for any title, but we have the potential to account for the bulk of the revenue. We’re the 20 percent who would be happy to buy 80 percent. In some cases, we’re the 10 percent who would buy 90 percent. And when we fund Kickstarter campaigns, we subsidize those products for everyone else.

When faced with free downloads, most fans will opt for them; the hardcores will pick up the slack.

Kickstarter has been more successful than any other platform in monetizing the gulf between hard-core and fair-weather fans. But the pattern has been playing out for the better part of a decade now. Mass-market consumers are growing accustomed to paying less and less for entertainment, and the hardcore have been picking up the tab. When Radiohead released the album In Rainbows in 2007 through its own website, it offered consumers the ability to pay any price they wanted for the download. ComScore estimated that, of the 1 million or more who downloaded the album in its first few months of release, 62 percent chose to pay nothing at all; the bulk of the rest paid between $0.01 and $4. But in addition to the digital honor system, the band offered a special-edition box set for close to $80. It sold about 100,000 copies of the set, dwarfing the revenues earned from more than a million downloads of the standard album.

In Rainbows wasn’t the first or last time a band made a killing on a collector’s set. But the album’s release was a fascinating experiment in the economics of free choice. When faced with free downloads, most fans will opt for them; the hardcores will pick up the slack, and then some.

Economics has a phrase for this phenomenon: price discrimination. It means that a distributor offers the same, or similar, goods to different segments of a market at different prices. Price discrimination allows a manufacturer or distributor to capture more value for its product by addressing the fact that not everyone is willing to pay the same. Most people won’t pay more than $9.99 for an album on iTunes (if they’ll pay at all). But a fraction of fans will pay $80 or more for, by and large, the same material in somewhat different packaging. If a brand offers everyone in the market the same good at the same price, it’s leaving a lot of money on the table.

Special-editioning has been a savvy move for content publishers, even though it’s bound and weakened by its reliance on lagging indicators. Kickstarter, on the other hand, shifts things forward. It allows publishers to identify, and sell to, the special-edition set in advance. And it’s no wonder that the dynamics of a successful Kickstarter campaign resemble those of a special-edition presale.

We can think of Kickstarter as a market segmentation vehicle: It enables content creators and distributors to get a lot smarter about identifying—and upselling to—their hard-core fans. At the same time, it allows those fans to buy a sort of emotional fulfillment. The Veronica Mars movie didn’t need to rally all 2.5 million Veronica Mars TV fans to be a success. It just needed to reach the mighty 4 percent who cared the most deeply.

Every project has its 4 percenters, and Kickstarter gives them a voice in the market to match their dedication. Their numbers aren’t legion, but their influence and buying power can’t be denied. So tomorrow’s content creators should get comfortable with thinking small. That’s where they’ll win big.” – Jon Nathanson, THIS IS HARDCORE, SLATE.com, March 18 2014 4:54 PM

372. Son of Jello - March 23, 2014

359. Keachick

bombastic mess
flash blinded and dazed
chris pine might
spew nonsense and bullshit
?

373. moauvian waoul - March 23, 2014

354. Um…yes. We should be bold. Definitely.
I wasn’t referring to the writer. I don’t know him. I was referring to the the tendencies of dogma to convert, repress or oppress those who refute their mythology. I believe that anyone who thinks they know what happens after death is not only full of **it, they are **itting themselves. But to then judge others (formulating public policy) when, by the tenets of their own faith, are specifically told not to, not only makes them bad, but bad at the very thing they purport to represent. There is this tendency to use faith as a weapon and those who don’t share this view should push back and fight back, and wrest power and the moral high ground from those who would try to claim it for their own purposes, forgetting that pride is still one of the seven deadly sins. After all there is only one commandment in the NT – love thy neighbor – and they can’t even get that right.
If this is rambling, please forgive me ;) it’s very late.

374. Keachick - March 24, 2014

#333, #371 – Free form poetry?

I am not sure if I should feel flattered or not with you using my words, out of context, in the way that you are.

375. Son of Jello - March 24, 2014

373. Keachick

I should feel
my words
of context
that you are
my words
of context

376. Son of Jello - March 24, 2014

373. Keachick

01000001 01110011 00100000 01101100 01101111 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100001 01110011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100110 01100101 01100101 01101100 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101100 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100010 01100101 00100000 01001111 01001011

377. Disinvited - March 24, 2014

#375. Son of Jello – March 24, 2014

01010000011000010110100101101110001000000110100101110011001000000110000100100000011001100110010101100101011011000110100101101110011001110010111000100000010011110110111001100101001000000111010001101000011000010111010000100000011011000110010101110100001001110111001100100000011110010110111101110101001000000110101101101110011011110111011100100000011101000110100001100001011101000010000001100101011101100110010101110010011110010111010001101000011010010110111001100111001001110111001100100000011011100110111101110100001000000110001001100101011010010110111001100111001000000110111101101011011000010111100100101110

378. Disinvited - March 24, 2014

375. Son of Jello – March 24, 2014

I wondered why you put in all those spaces.

01010000 01100001 01101001 01101110 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100110 01100101 01100101 01101100 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110 00100000 01001111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01101100 01100101 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101011 01101110 01101111 01110111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100111 01110011 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101111 01101011 01100001 01111001 00101110

379. Son of jello - March 24, 2014

377. Disinvited

01101001 01110100 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101011 01100101 01110011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100110 01100101 01100101 01101100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100001 01101100 01110111 01100001 01111001 01110011 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100010 01100101 01110100 01110100 01100101 01110010 00101110

380. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

Y’know, the funny thing about the whole issue is that no one would have probably said a word if Payne said he was a Buddhist, even though Buddhism is organized religion.

381. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

Or……if he were a Sikh *LOL*

382. Phil - March 24, 2014

What’s actually amazing is that Bernie uncovered a legitimate piece of news in this interview, which is seemingly being ignored, in favor of a rather pointless debate by people who seem offended by the existence of people who value faith.

Yeah, let me demonstrate my enlightened level of tolerance by explaining how intolerant you are. Living in a perpetual state of offence must be depressing.

383. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

381. Phil – March 24, 2014

Yeah, let me demonstrate my enlightened level of tolerance by explaining how intolerant you are. Living in a perpetual state of offence must be depressing.

****************************

You said it!

384. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

379. Probably true. But they don’t have the same reputation. They don’t have a political agenda. (Outside Tibet)

385. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

381. War a Christmas much?

386. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

‘Cause if there’s one group that isn’t in a perpetual state of offense and outrage it’s Christians. Like, for instance on this site. And the fact that Mormons are leading this charge on who should be allowed to marry is perfect. No sense of irony there. Yup, live and let live. That’s their motto.

387. rocketscientist - March 24, 2014

“Y’know, the funny thing about the whole issue is that no one would have probably said a word if Payne said he was a Buddhist, even though Buddhism is organized religion.”

That’s the truth right there. It never ceases to amaze me how the mere mention of someone being Mormon leads immediately to negative assumptions on how that person will behave.

I’m a moderate Catholic Democrat who married into a Mormon family. My in-laws, nieces and nephews are all Mormons and I love them a lot. It always ticks me off when I read the completely ignorant bigotry when ANY story involving a Mormon comes up. I certainly don’t expect any proselytizing from Mr. Payne in his screenplay for the most ST script, because, guess what, it’s never happened to me. I married into a Mormon family and they have never ever been anything other than kind, gracious, and respectful of my beliefs.

All this crap about them forcing their religion on others is just plain wrong. Guess what, they have a stake in society too. They can vote and they can fund campaigns and candidates that are compatible with their values, which are based around the traditional nuclear family. In that regard, I think we would all due well to emulate them, since imo the American family, which is the bedrock of society, is weakening.

Yeah, they don’t like gay marriage. Why? Because they don’t want it taught to their children in school. That would encroach on their teaching the values and religious beliefs they wish to impart on their children. IMO, they’re probably being a bit paranoid on the effect of secular gay marriage on the schools (there will be SOME impact, probably very minor), but I do understand why they feel the way they do, they love their kids and want them to be with them in heaven.

But none of them I know have ever preached persecution or intolerance of gays or lesbians. I did see, in the wake of prop 8, pro-gay marriage marches on Mormon temples with signs saying “Mormon Scum.” I wonder how the Mormon children felt about that? I did read about envelopes of white powder sent to the Mormon church authorities in Utah. I did read about vandalism at Mormon churches (including my brother-in-laws).

And the ironic thing is that the Mormon population in California were what, about 3% or less of the total population? Obiviously, non-Mormons were responsible for prop 8 passing. And yet, the Mormons got all the blame because they put a lot of money into the campaign. The black folks who voted got an explicit pardon pardon from the pro-gay marriage side despite almost all of them voting for prop 8. It was simply more PC to focus all the rage and hatred on the Mormons, because they were such a small minority and because blaming blacks would hurt the gay-marriage, mixed-raise marriage civil rights analogy. It was politically motivated and expedient and not based on what actually happened.

As for how Mormons treat gays, there have been gay church officials now at the church level. There is, at least at the lower levels, more outreach to gay students at BYU. I think the younger generations of Mormons are more sympathetic and compassionate wrt homosexuals. They might still not agree with it, but I do think they want to show that they aren’t haters and that they will treat them with compassion. In that regard, I know that my brother-in-laws wife hasn’t ostracized her gay brother at all, though he has left the church. They still love him and have him at all their family gatherings.

As someone said in an article I read, personal religious belief is really the last acceptable bigotry in the US. Since I’ve been married to my wife, I’ve really come to realize this in a personal fashion. It’s so ironic that people first came to this country to escape religious persecution and now those sentiments are rising again. To me, it’s unkind, hateful, and just un-American.

My kids just might end up Mormon in the end (they are being raised Catholic, so probably not), but I would hope that if so, they won’t be treated badly or made to feel that they are different from their schoolmates because of it, like my wife was in school.

I’m not a hater and I’m not teaching my kids to hate or be intolerant of ANYONE. It’s wrong and incompatible with what I believe are the values of being an American citizen as well as a Christian (or Mormon, if you don’t believe Mormons are real Christians). I would hope that others would feel the same way, although I know now that that obviously isn’t the case.

Dr. H

388. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

383. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014

But it’s still organized religion, and people have been bashing organized religion. As for your comments on 385, we live in a pluralistic society. People who are of like mind, whether that be a political philosophy, moral philosophy, moral philosophy derived from religion, or whatever, have the right to band together to make political change. You mention marriage. Which is not only a civil proceeding (if that were the case, civil unions would be the rule of the day for heterosexuals and homosexuals), but a religious/spiritual one. When I got married, I went and got my piece of paper from the Court, but there was a requirement that it be “solemnized” by someone. Why? Because it’s historically a religious/spiritual situation. So, therefore, the main population of people who are designated to “solemnize” marriages, clergymen of all religions, have their hat in the game already. And they have a right to speak on the subject, because it almost certainly will affect them.

I think what people are objecting to on this site is the fact that a writer, who happens to be a Mormon, is being judged by his religion before he even delivers a product. That’s unfair and silly. Gene Roddenberry is known to be an atheist. But Star Trek, especially the series, isn’t known to be a work of atheism, is it? It has some pretty overt religious overtones, at times. And if he does use a religious theme, like say the “fruit of Good and Evil” thing, what of it? It’s a pretty typical human conflict – do we pursue knowledge at any cost? Literature and film is chock full of examples of this, when knowledge and wisdom severs relationships and causes strife. Some people may think of it in terms of the Bible/Torah. Other people might think of it in terms of Prometheus, giving fire to humans. Others may think of it in terms of Darwin, facing ostracism and shame for the name of science. Your background may shape how you identify with the theme, but it’s essentially a very human theme. Take Spock’s death in TWOK, or Kirks death in STID. The Bible says “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Did a religious person write the script for TWOK? Who knows, and who cares? It’s still a concept that all of us can identify with, no matter what religious or secular traditions we come from.

389. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

Sorry, I meant “fruit of the tree of knowledge” above.

390. Son of jello - March 24, 2014

If it weren’t for Athiest’s you would all be irrelevant.

And yes your right, no one should have to tolerate what the devout delivers into society. Religion is the meaning of intolerance, ignorance,oppression and brutality. It just cant keep its hands to itself or its nose out of other peoples lives. It not a good idea because it is well thought out and considered it just destroys anything that may go against it. Thru corrupting the workings of government for it’s own gain, Compleatly misunderstanding the role of science and infiltrating schools with its doctrine.

There is no excuse for the behaviour of religion and I’m not going back 100 or 1000 plus years for and example I’m talking yesterday a couple of minutes ago and right now, in a couple of minutes time, tomorrow and into the future. Its not the non beliver that needs to come to terms with religion because there are no terms.

It’s “the dog ate my homework” of the rational world.

391. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

388. Son of jello – March 24, 2014

Religion is the meaning of intolerance, ignorance,oppression and brutality. It just cant keep its hands to itself or its nose out of other peoples lives.

*****************************

So, what’s the difference if you replace the word “religion” above with “morality” or “politics”? Arent those equally “intolerant” entities that foster intolerance, ignorance, oppression, and brutality? They “cant keep their hands to themselves” either.

392. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

LogicalLeopard. Damn dude you wrote a lot. I’m still tired from last night. You being a heathen is hard work.
I’m trying to make sure I’m reading you right. Sorry.
Yes it’s organized religion, and I have issues with that, but I have a harder time with those trying to impose their will. Especially when I can see and understand the consequences of their actions and motives. Some religions meddle more than others. Christianity may be the worst in this regard. Not that it should be prohibited, I just don’t agree with how it seeks to govern. People of course have the rights to their own beliefs. It just should not be held higher than other peoples beliefs. Yes, Star Trek has dealt with the big questions, as it should, as all exploration should, and all important discussions should. There were episodes that dealt with religion quite harshly as well. The Apple and the Return of the Archons jump to mind. I’m sure there are a few others. I guess what I’m getting at, for me it isn’t the questions that I find objectionable, it’s the answers. Those imposing their answers on us all.

393. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

Correction: You KNOW, being a heathen is hard work.

394. Ahmed - March 24, 2014

I was among the ones who were concerned with the apparent influence of Payne’s faith on his works but now I think that we should give him the benefit of the doubt & hope for the best.

And lets remember that he is co-writing the movie with 3 other people, Bob, Alex & McKay.

And from what Bernie mentioned, we may not wait for long before we hear news, probably by May.

395. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

389. LogicalLeopard. Remember religion is not a democratic institution.

396. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

Ahmed! Stay strong! Don’t waver! Hold the line! These zealots can smell weakness.

397. Ahmed - March 24, 2014

@ 394. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014

“Ahmed! Stay strong! Don’t waver! Hold the line! These zealots can smell weakness.”

lol, we are not at war :)

Payne is a new writer, none of his previous scripts were produced, so this is going to be his first movie. I think it is fair to wait & see the outcome. I would feel more at ease if he wasn’t that outspoken about his faith, but that is irrelevant now.

Also he is a TNG fan & I like that :)

398. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

395. :)

399. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

TNG?!
This is indeed war!!

400. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

390. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014

*L* I’m still tired from last night too, but it was a rather unheathenish cold that kept me awake. But anyway, you talk about people imposing their will upon others. Well, I submit that is the very basis of law. When you pass a law, any law, you are by definition imposing your will upon others. And we do that all the time. Organized religions that become politically active, or people who vote for/against politicians because of their faith get the brunt of criticism, because they are the most visible. But we have a lot of moral/cultural laws that transcend religion, and no one cares about it. You probably don’t loose much sleep worrying over the US laws regarding polygamy/polyandry, and I don’t either. But isn’t that kind of a weird law? Why can’t groups of adults form polyamorous unions of mutual support? The current prevalent thought is that it’s really no business what consenting adults do in their homes or what they do sexually or who they decide to love. But no one’s really talking much about overturning that little legal nugget. Why? Because although such relationships are historical, they are culturally and morally foreign to us. So we oppress the small amount of people who would choose to pursue such arrangements. It’s funny too, because there doesn’t even seem to be a concentrated effort against polygamy/andry, it seems like it’s just an nonverbal, longstanding “Nope.”

That’s only one example, if we give it thought, we could come up with lots of examples of how lawmaking impedes upon our rights. If you’re a libertarian, you could come up with more than others *L* But that’s the basis of law in this country, communities decide upon what should be legal and what should be illegal, and then when public opinion changes, the law changes. Sometimes, if there is an overriding legal truth, the law changes before the public sentiment does. But it’s usually driven in some matter by public sentiment. That’s the system.

401. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

LogicalLeopard
Sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better. Actually I was just working late. And early.

All true. A particular religion should not be the sole basis for a law. That’s the reason for separation of church and state. If it is then it should be challenged, and we are in agreement. I’m not an anarchist. Our laws SHOULD transcend religion. Our morality should reflect the beliefs and rights of all citizens, not just those of a certain faith. A fallacy I’ve heard repeated is that murder is illegal based solely on the Judeo-Christian moral code, when murder is illegal in every country around the world.

Side point: Doesn’t affect your point but I can report with great confidence. polygamy is alive and well in Utah. Like pot in San Francisco.

402. Disinvited - March 24, 2014

#399. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014

And this is indeed science:

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25403829/big-bang-tremors-validate-stanford-physicists-theory-birth

”In the beginning, there was nothing.

And then, in an explosive instant: Everything.

That explains not just Stanford physicist Andrei Linde’s landmark theory, but also his moment of epiphany, in Moscow 30 years ago, that transformed our understanding of the beginnings of the universe. Astronomers announced new findings last week that, if corroborated, validate his pioneering vision that the universe was born in a fraction of a second, expanding exponentially from a size smaller than a proton.

Last Monday, a team of scientists reported that a telescope at the South Pole had detected gravitational waves that are the first tremors of the Big Bang, when the universe was a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second old.

Linde is riveted by the possibility that the explosion didn’t just create us — but billions of other universes governed by different physical laws. It is a comfortable concept for a mind that grew up under Soviet dogma and distrusts any single authoritarian system — including monotheistic religions ruled over by a single God. He said he is more attracted to polytheistic Eastern philosophy.

“Even if one tries to interpret our results in religious terms, I think that it would be such a waste of energy for ‘God’ not to use this way of creating a universe — to take a milligram of matter and then the universe does the rest of the job by itself, producing infinite number of universes,” he said.

If there was a creator of the universe, was the work signed? Is there a hidden message? The inflationary expansion could make it too huge to read, he concedes. But perhaps the message is encoded in the laws of that universe — legible only to physicists. The thought brings him joy.

“Maybe God is a physicist hacker,” Linde laughed. Then he turned quiet. “I am not so sure this is just a joke.” – “Stanford: Big Bang tremors may back physicist’s universe-birth theory”
By Lisa M. Krieger, San Jose Mercury News, 03/23/2014 10:12:50 AM PDT

403. Jemini - March 24, 2014

the writers said similar things about star trek into darkness too….

anyway, welcome to the new writers. Learn from your friend Orci who wasted way too much time with us: stay away from trekmovie xD xD

—————–

119. Marja
115 DisKhan, I don’t think the Spock/Uhura thing and more of McCoy are mutually exclusive! In fact I would find it quite amusing if McCoy were to advise them on something, together or separately ….

—-
Reading this site is like listening to the cover of the same song over and over.
I’m always so amused by the so called McCoy “fans” thinking that Spock having a girlfriend if the reason why McCoy doesn’t get the same amount of screentime Kirk and Spock get..

{sarcasm required in the ‘McCoy fans’ assertion, I don’t think people really care about him the way they claim to and I had been in this fandom long enough to see through the disingenuous stuff some fans say. You think that if people cared about McCoy and their ‘issue’ really was him getting more screentime, they’d complain about *Scotty* getting more screentime than him in the last movie or them introducing a new character – Carol – who also took screentime that could have been used to developed the existing characters . Coincidence though – if you believe in them – they complain about the only more prominent female character being important for one of the two dudes.
2009 called: they want their wank back.}

404. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

Morality and religion are to separate things. The “Christian” United States allowed slavery for centuries and in doing so allowed murder and rape and all sorts of horrible abuses, and discrimination is alive and well and seems to thrive in our most conservative/religious regions. I know technically we don’t have a religion but Christians are quick to point out was historically has been Christian and remains so. The rest of us just say it’s only run by them. While it is true that abolitionists were instrumental in freeing the slaves, it is also true that the religious used the bible to justify the continuation of this terrible institution. The Southern Baptist were created based on this idea. Religion cannot sadly navigate the simplest if moral issues what value is it? I submit to you, religion has nothing to do with right and wrong., only with attempting to secure an eternal life. A rather selfish act I do believe.

405. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

395. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014
389. LogicalLeopard. Remember religion is not a democratic institution.

***********************

On the contrary, there are democratic functions to many religious organizations. The pastor of my church died just over a year ago, and we are currently in the midst of not only electing a pastor, but restructuring our constitution and by-laws. There’s a lot of parliamentary procedure and things to the latter, but it’s funny how there are so many democratic functions to a church that normally doesn’t operate in what we would call a “democratic” way. Most church organizations have bodies of elders, cardinals, etc,, that allow for some “democratic” methods. Even the early church in the Bible had councils of elders who came together and deliberated on certain issues, with prayer.

But really, what’s important to realize is not whether religions are democratic, but that Democracy allows for religious input, through the principles of pluralism. If enough people feel the same way on a certain issue, they can lobby representatives to get legislation passed. Usually, those people form organizations, like say…I dunno, an organization that wants to prohibit oil drilling off the coast of South Carolina. Those organizations may consist of several organizations with interested parties, maybe the vacation industry, fishing industry, environmentalists, etc. With religion, you have people who are already organized to a degree, efficient, and more importantly, passionate about the subject. So, you see a lot of religious organizations involved in politics because of those qualities.

406. Ahmed - March 24, 2014

On a lighter note

==========================

CBS Announces The First Official ‘Star Trek’ Beer

You may never be able to pilot a Bird of Prey, but later this year, you’ll be able to live the Klingon lifestyle in one way: by drinking the same beer as the fictional aliens.

Klingons are fond of proclaiming Heghlu’meH QaQ jajvam (“Today is a good day to die,” for those of you who don’t speak the language). But as any Star Trek aficionado knows, when they’re not fighting to the death or vocally announcing debts of honor, they’re all about the partying. With the upcoming release of Klingon Warnog — the first officially licensed Star Trek beer — you can be, too.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/cbs-announces-first-official-star-690596

==========================

I’m glad that CBS is working very hard to keep Trek alive (sarcasm )

407. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

Disinvited. I’ve been following that development.
I too am very excited about the ramifications, as I understand them. :)
Even if I barely “mastered” long division.
Thanks for the article.
Love me some existential **it.
Any thoughts?

408. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

Ok correction: if religion cannot safely navigate the simplistic of moral issues what good is it?
Sorry, my phone

409. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

LogicalLeopard
I meant democracy for all, not only the devout.

410. Vultan - March 24, 2014

Amazes me to see people being so concerned about religion being used in Trek when it’s been a major component for a very long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyiWkWcR86I

411. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

LogicalLeopard
I’m hogging the thread. Let me say a agree with your second point, but we should be vigilant that is for the greater public good.

412. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

Sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better. Actually I was just working late. And early.

*******
Thanks, I appreciate it! And I hope your work schedule improves soon as well!

*******************************

All true. A particular religion should not be the sole basis for a law. That’s the reason for separation of church and state. If it is then it should be challenged, and we are in agreement. I’m not an anarchist. Our laws SHOULD transcend religion. Our morality should reflect the beliefs and rights of all citizens, not just those of a certain faith. A fallacy I’ve heard repeated is that murder is illegal based solely on the Judeo-Christian moral code, when murder is illegal in every country around the world.
*******************

Well that’s the thing, whether or not a religion is the sole basis for a law is really more of a cultural issue. You have the United States, which has/had a lot of Christian oriented laws that reflected the people who comprised the country, but you still had enough people in the “other/dissenter” category or just flat out wise people, who realized that this country shouldn’t endorse a particular religion. Hence the Establishment clause in the first amenedment. But that doesn’t mean that people who live in certain areas aren’t going to compose law that reflects their beliefs. Hence the concept of Federalism.

Arguably, our laws transcend religion in many or most aspects. But you’ll never go without a religious aspect, because law is based on morality, and religions can be looked at as “organized morality” in a respect. The key word is organized – if you’re organized, you’re in a better position to influence the passing of law. Our laws can’t reflect the beliefs of all citizens, because our citizens believe different things. There are some moral codes that are almost universally agreed upon, like murder. Murder isn’t a Judeo Christian concept, but some of the specific statutes may be shaped, or the discussion about those laws may be shaped, by the Judeo Christian concepts regarding murder. Take the debate about same sex marriage in the United States. The opposition seems to be wholly or mainly from the Christian right. However, it skips over the fact that marriage has consisted of opposite sex partners (of different numbers) in virtually every society in the world until recently. Homosexuality has been permitted, encouraged, or sometimes even revered in different cultures, but marriage has been wholly a heterosexual affair. There are only two cultures off hand I know of in which homosexual marriage has taken form – there’s an ethnic group in Africa where women were “married” to other women in certain circumstances, and I think I heard about an ancient Chinese pairing of men in the same manner. However, in different countries, they may express different reasons. In here, it’s a Christian opposition, in a Muslim country, it’s Muslim opposition, God knows what it is in China, which may be nominally atheistic. Or countries which have other belief systems.

******************************************************

Side point: Doesn’t affect your point but I can report with great confidence. polygamy is alive and well in Utah. Like pot in San Francisco.

***********************

Oh, things are alive and well, they’re just not legal. Like how there have been homosexual couples living as married far longer than marriage has been allowed. And you usually notice that the first couples who rush out for a marriage certificate have considered themselves married for decades. And the legality of it is what is in question, because we’re talking about passing laws. Even with marijuana laws – people have argued for ages about the intoxication effects, comparing them with alcohol. But until recently, it’s been met with a big old public “Nope.”

413. Keachick - March 24, 2014

Re: your comment about polygamy/polyandry

I recall a few years’ back discussing the topic of whether the law (here in NZ and elsewhere) should allow same-sex unions/marriages and I wrote that the legislators would no more allow for same-sex marriages than they would rescind the laws against polygamy or polyandry. It seems that I was wrong.

Monogamy wins to the point where people can be prosecuted if they are found to be married to more than one person at a time. This does not necessarily make the present laws more moral than another. It is just easier…

The problem is that it is Christianity and Islam who have had, and continue to have, the worst track record when it comes to imposing on the whole of a society a set of rules that many within a community do not believe is right, for them. Legislating is always a balancing act and unfortunately many do not see much in the way of balance and justice is certainly not always blind (fair), as our ideology insists that it should and needs to be…

What some posters are saying to me about what is happening now in the red states of the USA is another example of what many people are concerned about.

It is not that other *religions have not behaved badly at times, but for people living within a more *western* style culture, some of the negative actions of those purporting to be Christian or Muslim simply cannot be overlooked.

*Buddhism has been regarded as having probably the cleanest track record of all the major religions at least in this respect – until recently – ie what’s been going on in Sri Lanka…

414. LogicalLeopard - March 24, 2014

404. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014
Morality and religion are to separate things.

**********************

That is true. They are two very different things. Religion usually consists of an organized moral code, however.

***********************

The “Christian” United States allowed slavery for centuries and in doing so allowed murder and rape and all sorts of horrible abuses, and discrimination is alive and well and seems to thrive in our most conservative/religious regions.

**************************

Ahhh, and that’s what I’m getting at! *L* Why was Christianity used to justify slavery? Not because it actually condoned the utter horror of the Transatlantic Slave Trade, but because powerful, rich men wanted to keep slavery because they were making money off of it. I think I’ve spoken about the Curse of Ham before, in which “theologians” constructed a horribly non-biblical justification for slavery. But they were able to do that because people didn’t care, didn’t read their Bibles, or couldn’t read period, and didn’t have the resources or education to study the thing out. Or, like I said, flat out didn’t care, as long as the labor is being done. Christians who did figure it out, however, were the first people involved in the abolitionist movement.

But really, you have people “abusing” religion for their own purposes. That’s the big problem, not religion itself. But religion is only one culprit, we use racism, nationalism, xenophobia, income levels, all sorts of things to justify bad things.

*****************************
I know technically we don’t have a religion but Christians are quick to point out was historically has been Christian and remains so. The rest of us just say it’s only run by them. While it is true that abolitionists were instrumental in freeing the slaves, it is also true that the religious used the bible to justify the continuation of this terrible institution. The Southern Baptist were created based on this idea. Religion cannot sadly navigate the simplest if moral issues what value is it? I submit to you, religion has nothing to do with right and wrong., only with attempting to secure an eternal life. A rather selfish act I do believe.

************************

Religion can navigate the simplest of moral issues, but like a compass, it’s only useful if used correctly. It can also be used incorrectly. And most religion has a moral code of right and wrong. Securing the eternal life, or favorable life, or favor of God or gods is secondary to the moral code, which is necessary for the goal.

415. Son of jello - March 24, 2014

391. LogicalLeopard

Thanks for making my point, People cant make the distinction between politics and morality (I never used that word but thanks for bringing it up) and their religion. Religion has nothing to do with the first two and should not be included with either.

As far as what goverment’s do to us, that’s a tangible problem that can be solved. Its the authority that we allow Polotics to have and the disinterest we have in it that causes the intolerance, ignorance, oppression, and brutality.

416. Ahmed - March 24, 2014

An epic “X-Men: Days of Future Past” trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6acRHWnfZAE

417. Ted C - March 24, 2014

I wonder who they will get to play Sybok and what name they will use in the press release to hide his character from the public.

418. Ahmed - March 24, 2014

The best marketing strategy is to give all the characters, with the exception of the crew, fake names to keep the movie fresh & mysterious!

While you are at it, they should release a COUNTDOWN TO comics with a story that has nothing or very little to do with the actual movie.

419. Jack - March 24, 2014

I don’t know what you guys are worried about — Battlefield Earth was awesome!!!!!

(starts weeping).

PS. Interesting conversations here lately. I’m happy that the boards are policed less than under previous administrations,

420. dswynne - March 24, 2014

@373 (moauvian waoul): I guess you haven’t heard of “mandatory diversity training” in the workplace, where a type of speech code is put into place out of fear of offending the sensibilities of someone, rather than just the offended dealing directly with the offender without HR getting into things. Or, more recently, how there is a push by Facebook CEO Sheryl Sandberg, who wants to ban words in order to foster a climate helping young girls achieve prominence (ignoring the fact that Sandberg used the corporate climate to become a better manager). In fact, your fears would be validated if, and only if, any group (political or otherwise) uses the government to enforce their agenda. THAT, my friend, should be more of a concern, rather than simply hold a belief that is different or even repugnant from yours. Even the sciences are not immune to dogma, especially since there are some within the environmental movement who want to stifle debate, such as RIT professor Lawrence Torcello, who want to jail those who oppose the agenda of the IPCC. Now, whether or not you think climate change deniers are wrong is one thing, but to use the power of the government to censure an opposition is just as dangerous as having a theocratic regime in charge.

In other words, dogma is not necessarily just a religious term…

421. Marja - March 24, 2014

403 jemini, Agreed, most of it!

I really like your point about Scotty in STiD – he got lots of screentime and nobody whined about him “taking time away from McCoy” … they only seem to think if anybody takes time away from anybody else, it’s Uhura’s fault. It’s what I call the “boys club no girls allowed” syndrome.

I do think there are legitimate McCoy fans out there, I for one love him.
————————————-
I see there is a lot of rich theistic/atheistic religion/morals discussion here, which I will comb through in a few hours!
————————————–
For those of us who don’t speak “binary” is there a translator program, or would you be kind enough to translate it for us? [Unless it's wank, of course]

422. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

Yeah Dswynne, I’ve heard of it. Thanks. Doesn’t really worry honestly. The world is changing. Other people matter these days. The Facebook thing doesn’t register either. Now people saying they know the mind of God and are going to save me from myself through legislation worries me. The self-righteous are a dangerous breed.

423. moauvian waoul - March 24, 2014

LogicalLeopard. That’s the problem, you can justify anything when you claim Divine knowledge. The bible contradicts itself. It also mentions slavery several times but passes no judgement except how one should treat their slaves. That’s way it was justified in the South. I think we need a more contemporary moral code. It was a long time ago. Eating shellfish is as bad homosexuality according to the Old Testement. Don’t see anyone passing laws against Red Lobster.
Yes religion influences laws and government. Undeniably. And I believe the more so, the worse.
If it’s only as good as the practicing individual we should probably find a better system.
I know. I know. You don’t agree. :)

424. Who cares - March 24, 2014

@Logical Leopard Re: legality of polygamy in Utah.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2014/02/sister-wives-prompts-pro-polygamy-ruling-and-debate-in-utah/

425. Vultan - March 24, 2014

#423

There was a sequel to the Old Testament. It ditched a lot of that wrathful stuff in favor of love, peace and forgiveness. I don’t recall anything about Red Lobster, but I’ve never been into minutia like ancient menus. Anyway, I just ignore the nonsensical entries and concentrate on the positive ones.

You know, like the better episodes and movies of Star Trek. And it would be silly to say something like… if it’s only as good as JJ Abrams perhaps we should find a better franchise. Nah, I don’t give up that easily.

426. Tom - March 24, 2014

# 357 Optimistic Doodle

“I wonder how exactly Star Trek 3 will translate the 50th (Original) Anniversary…”

Good question. Wonder what they will come up with. They already sprinkled the two movies with plenty of references etc to the Original Series. I still think a Shatner -Nimoy end credit scene would be unique and special. Great way to celebrate the anniversary

427. Phil - March 24, 2014

Sorry, but ‘Hey, you KNOW that guy is Mormon, don’t you?’ is just as offensive as ‘Hey, you KNOW that guy is gay, don’t you?’. Dogma is dogma, regardless of if it’s secular or religious in origin, and all of it is fairly useless.

From the content of this thread, The Undiscovered Country is looking like the Citizen Kane of Trek movies here.

Well… I see we have a long way to go. – Chancellor Gorkon

428. Basement Blogger - March 24, 2014

On J.D. Payne’s religion…

First, thanks Phil for your nice words.

My take on Payne’s lecture was not to put down the Mormon religion. It was clear he’s devout. As a Christian, there are things I disagree with the Mormons on. As a liberal, I disagree with their views on gays. I want to add that there was a time when black Mormons could not be priests in their church. Link. However, that position has changed. There is racial tolerance in the church. That being said, I hope their position will change as it relates to gays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism

I want to add that the Mormons I know are wonderful people. They are friendly and kind. There are many Mormons in the public eye. Sen. Harry Reid. (D-Nev.), former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney. Science fiction writer Orson Scott Card.

What I got from Payne was that his religious beliefs could collide with his work on screenplays. Could he write a romantic gay scene? I don’t know. Kelsey Grammer is a real life conservative yet he brilliantly played a liberal in Frasier. See episode, “The Candidate.”

I don’t think Payne’s Mormonism will have any effect on the next Star Trek movie. There’s not going to be an explicit sex scene. Not that kind of movie, folks. Look, I didn’t detect any proselytizing in the movie of Card’s “Ender’s Game.”

Regardless, remember Payne’s a Trekker. He seems to have an understanding about Star Trek. He talked about the ethical issues that the show raised. He talked about Trek’s space exploration. So again in the words of Captain James T. Kirk from ST3: The Search for Spock,

“Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.”

I’m going to try to keep an open mind.

429. Son of jello - March 24, 2014

421. Marja

01001110 01101111 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01101101 01100101 01101110 01110100 00101110

430. Son of jello - March 24, 2014

421. Marja pathetic

For those of us who don’t speak “binary” is there a translator program, or would you be kind enough to translate it for us? [Unless it's wank, of course]

Marja your last few lines express a very devout take (attack plan) on an argument. Fist there is ignorance. Then you attack. And then you undermine. Making the whole conversation about whether the person who said it is a wanker or not. A simplistic statement that has nothing to do with what was said but “That persons speaking binery Wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker. I just li wanker wanker wanker ke to say wanker wanker wanker If you rea wanker wanker d what was wanker wanker wanker said yo wanker wanker u would look wanker wanker foo wanker wanker wanker li wanker wanker wanker s.

If you don’t like what is being said to bad but show some decency and effort and least read it before going strait to a simplistic one word statement to describe you lack of understanding. You have no idea what the conversation was about.

You have made the most pathetic statement I have ever seen on this forum

431. Harry Ballz - March 24, 2014

@430 Son of Jello

“You have made the most pathetic statement I have ever seen on this forum”

Wow, SOJ, you must be new to this site.

The comments posted here over the years are vile enough to curl your pubic hair!

432. Son of jello - March 24, 2014

431. Harry Ballz

Yep and I will include myself (somewhat) in making those statements. Time to take a break,I have to iron a few thing out. :)

433. Marja - March 25, 2014

430 Jello wtf?!

and nor will I have any idea what your binary convo’s about unless you translate it. What I was saying was, if it’s wank, don’t bother. If it’s not wank, other folks might be interested to know what you have to say. You have many interesting things to say, even though I don’t agree with all of them.

Perhaps I made an assumption that it could be wank because … when bi-lingual people stop speaking English and switch to speaking their other language, e.g., Spanish, with a bi-lingual friend, you might figure they’re saying stuff they don’t want you to hear.

The fact that you’ve personally singled me out and fussed at me several times for writing in a … I don’t know, pedantic? educated? manner just makes me keep my antennae up for not “speaking as ‘everyday people’ do” …

… and there you go yourself, speaking as only binary speakers can do.

You can see what I mean, right? It didn’t jibe with what you had said to me several times, that’s all.

434. Marja - March 25, 2014

417 Ted C, Shylock? Psy-bot? Soy Riot? Tieback? Spy Rot? Lie Back?
———————————
420 Wynne, “Now, whether or not you think climate change deniers are wrong is one thing, but to use the power of the government to censure an opposition is just as dangerous as having a theocratic regime in charge.”

Naw, better that we leave governing to the oligarchs who profit from denying climate change … who also contribute so many millions of petro dollars to their favorite political campaigns that the other side don’t stand a chance.

There is science, and there is interest group-funded “science” …

435. Marja - March 25, 2014

428 Bernie, “There’s not going to be an explicit sex scene. Not that kind of movie, folks.” DANG IT THERE GOES MY HOPE FOR A PON FARR SCENE

436. Marja - March 25, 2014

371 Disinvited, While I’m heartened that fans were able to Kickstart a movie based on “Veronica Mars,” I don’t think the same would work for Trek … not Trek with great SFX anyway, or great actors.
————————————————————————–

re my 435, consider this: It’s prohibited to show sex, but it’s not prohibited to show killing. What a fascinating society we live in ….

437. Basement Blogger - March 25, 2014

@ 430, 432

Son of Jello, wow. You really took Marja’s comment completely wrong. With humor she asked for a translation since you guys are writing in binary code. And if the translation was something, offensive then forget about it. That’s what she meant.

You are the one who attacked. Good grief. Yeah, take a break. Maybe go see your doctor and have him prescribe some tranquilizers.

438. Disinvited - March 25, 2014

#407. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014

Well, don’t know if this is interesting enough, but I was pondering those posits that say say time is composed of discrete units, quanta if you will, and whether those discretions (to Norm Crosby it) each represent a separate timeless universe. Each with identical laws of physics but in different states that are as if a single frame from a movie or a page in a flip-book animation, and whether what we perceive as time is just us jumping these universes in a manner similar to flipping a page or the frame?

#421. Marja – March 24, 2014

If you want to decoder ring it (A singular enjoyment from my youth.) it is ASCII.

However, on this side of the millennium there’s an ap for everything:

http://www.roubaixinteractive.com/PlayGround/Binary_Conversion/Binary_To_Text.asp

Not mention another singular pleasure that I realized at the age of 7: that of NOT having an exclusively all boys club.

#436. Marja – March 25, 2014

You miss the point. The hardcore phenomenon discussed prior to Kickstarter is what allowed Trek to survive to be able to realize the mass marketing potential that it has. It’s not a binary either/or. What Kickstarter has done is create a mechanism by which Trek’s hardcore can be specifically quantified and maximally profited from in advance of the mass marketing – instead of moving target lagging behind it. That is a significant development for Paramount/CBS in regards to their decades of floundering around trying to figure the correct monetization of Trek as a maximal profit generating phenomenon.

With that brass ring mere millimeters away from their grasp, it seems to me that to blithely turn away and continue to put all the Trek eggs into one unified and singularly focused mass market basket is what would be foolhardy.

Maybe I read it wrong, but I believe that article lays out a fundamental principle that is taught in Econ 101: Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. That and Kickstarter-like phenomena can shed a much clearer light on which of those other baskets should be filled to spread it around in a robust Trek-themed marketing portfolio?

While I am sure many can assert that new Paramount’s backing of their Trek is better than any entity has done for a Trek since its creation, I doubt any can credibly argue that it has been as robust as their backing of TRANSFORMERS, GI JOE, MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE, etc. and why is that? After all these years and all the data they inherited, newP still holds back, hedges and is as unsurefooted of Trek marketing as ever in a clear indication of this.

Geesh, running too long. Look, the article itself even explains that the ever more expensive SFX that you find essential to a Trek movie’s survival isn’t sustainable by a bargain hunting networking mass market. I’m not sure that SFX is a given but if it were, it seems clear that what the article suggests is true: If you are looking for bleeding edge SFX demanded by the mass market, the only mechanism to successfully fund it will be by reaching the hardcore in a Kickstarter campaign? No?

439. Cygnus-X1 - March 25, 2014

280. Marja – March 21, 2014

Matt knocked off a number of mysterious posters when he took MJ off …. I guess Cygnus also got knocked off; I miss his reasonable “gentleman of the opposition” posts before he got so wanky. He made some mighty good posts about writing.

Ay!

I appreciate your appreciation, but I’m not wanky! Maybe guilty of a bad joke or two, though they’ve always been funny to me, and as such, sincerely offered as plausible amusement for the public.

440. NuFan - March 25, 2014

438 Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

Then why did you put all your eggs in the old universe basket? Looks like that it is you that is refusing to diversify.

441. Who cares - March 25, 2014

@Son of Jello. weren’t you the one, incorrectly and unfairly, criticizing people for “using TV language that real people don’t use”? Rather hypocritical of you considering absolutely nobody speaks in Binary, ever.

442. Cygnus-X1 - March 25, 2014

402. Disinvited – March 24, 2014

And this is indeed science: http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25403829/big-bang-tremors-validate-stanford-physicists-theory-birth

It is indeed.

And it’s very Trek-related science, too.

Alan Guth authored the theory of Cosmic Inflation in 1980, and it was basically about a mechanism for how the universe expanded to look the way that it does now. A few years later, Guth’s theory was further developed and modified by Andre Linde and Alexander Vilenkin into Eternal Inflation, which includes a very Trek attribute:

Basically, our universe sprang forth out of a rapidly expanding energy field called the Inflaton Field. A quantum fluctuation in the Inflaton Field caused a portion or “bubble” of the Field to “decay” into the stuff that makes up our universe today—matter and space. Then, our universe slowed its expansion. But the rest of the Inflaton Field would have kept on expanding at its breakneck rate.

Once the process of Inflation got started—and there are different models for when, exactly, the process began—there’s no known reason why it would ever have stopped. So, after our universe crystalized out of the Inflaton Field, the Field would have kept on expanding and yielding other universes as it went by the same process that our universe was formed. According to the theory of Linde and Vilenkin, this process would go on forever—Eternal Inflation.

This means that, if Linde and Vilenkin are right, there are many, many—perhaps infinitely many—universes out there. And if there are really infinitely many universes, then by statistical probability, there are other versions of YOU out there (just like the Evil Kirk in TOS “Mirror, Mirror” and Nu Kirk from BR Trek, etc.). To put it more simply, one of the corollaries of Eternal Inflation is that anything that CAN happen WILL happen in the set of existing universes, i.e. in the multiverse.

I think it is also strongly suggested that the process of Inflation predated the existence of our universe, though there are conflicting models about this. It’s also compelling that the existence of a multiverse has been suggested by findings in other areas of physics, such as String Theory.

The detection of gravity waves recently is solid, direct evidence not only of the occurrence of the Big Bang, but specifically of the occurrence of Cosmic Inflation. And if Inflation is actually eternal, as Linde and Vilenkin show in their model, then we now have evidence that we are living in a multiverse!

Here’s another article on the discovery of the gravity waves: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/

443. Red Dead Ryan - March 25, 2014

Usually when someone posts or says something in another language with their friend, or directed at someone else, whatever they’re saying tends to be some sort of insult or trash talk.

444. LogicalLeopard - March 25, 2014

413. Keachick – March 24, 2014

Monogamy wins to the point where people can be prosecuted if they are found to be married to more than one person at a time. This does not necessarily make the present laws more moral than another. It is just easier…
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Well, marrying opposite sex couples is “easier” from the point that you don’t have to go back and reword/rewrite statutes, marry less people, keep track of less marriages, less paperwork, less money for companies that cover spouses, but it’s hardly a good argument if you believe marriage is a human right. All you have to do is make it clear to people that each spouse has to be informed of the marriage, and that’ll satisfy the arguments presented regarding bigamy. And really, who practices bigamy anymore anyway? There aren’t too many “traveling salesmen” who have a wife and kids in Ohio and a wife and kids in North Dakota.
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The problem is that it is Christianity and Islam who have had, and continue to have, the worst track record when it comes to imposing on the whole of a society a set of rules that many within a community do not believe is right, for them. Legislating is always a balancing act and unfortunately many do not see much in the way of balance and justice is certainly not always blind (fair), as our ideology insists that it should and needs to be…

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Imposing on the whole of society a set of rules that man within a community do not believe is right for them. That’s basically a description of law itself. Many people object to almost every law passed, but they’re bound by those laws. Christianity and Islam are the largest religions, but most of the time, at the time when those laws were passed, the majority of the community was in agreement with them. And when the majority of the community no longer agrees, the laws get changed. That’s how law works. No need to blame a particular group. And remember, those religions didn’t “impose” the laws, they simply had the support of the political bodies to impose laws.

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What some posters are saying to me about what is happening now in the red states of the USA is another example of what many people are concerned about.

**********************

Well remember, the same works for “blue states.” There are “red” people in “blue” states who are upset at the laws in their society. How many skinny “red” people in New York, or business owners, are objecting to the dietary laws that are being enforced, and belief they should have the right to determine what they eat and when? That’s a small example, but the point is someone is always inconvenienced by law.
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It is not that other *religions have not behaved badly at times, but for people living within a more *western* style culture, some of the negative actions of those purporting to be Christian or Muslim simply cannot be overlooked.

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Well, if people can overlook the positive actions on a daily basis, why not the negative? *LOL* Sorry, that’s kind of flip, but it’s true to a degree. Negative things make the news. Positives don’t. Everyone heard about the head of the Westboro Baptist Church dying recently, right? But how many pastors of churches who regularly feed the poor make the news? Or Muslim leaders who spend much of their money to help the poor and disadvantaged, here and abroad?

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*Buddhism has been regarded as having probably the cleanest track record of all the major religions at least in this respect – until recently – ie what’s been going on in Sri Lanka…

************************************

Well…..there’s that…..

445. LogicalLeopard - March 25, 2014

387. rocketscientist – March 24, 2014

Great points! And that’s really the issue: whether you agree or disagree with people, that doesn’t mean you have to demonize them (no pun intended) and that doesn’t mean they don’t have a place at the table in this democracy.

446. LogicalLeopard - March 25, 2014

409. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014
LogicalLeopard
I meant democracy for all, not only the devout.

*************

Democracy is for all. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Democracy doesn’t mean “Oh, keep your religion to yourself, and don’t dare vote according to your religious values.” It means, EVERYONE has a place at the table, everyone can present their point, and everyone has the opportunity to shape the country. EVERYBODY.

447. LogicalLeopard - March 25, 2014

423. moauvian waoul – March 24, 2014
LogicalLeopard. That’s the problem, you can justify anything when you claim Divine knowledge. The bible contradicts itself. It also mentions slavery several times but passes no judgement except how one should treat their slaves.

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When you think about the time that Paul and others were living in, during the founding of the Christian Church, you understand why Christian slaves were advised to obey their masters and hopefully win them to Christ. Because, although a new religion wasn’t in and of itself as likely to bring Rome down hard on Christianity, a slave rebellion would.
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That’s way it was justified in the South.

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Eh, not really *LOL* I mean, this is what I’m talking about. Anyone who was a serious, devout Christian in that time couldn’t have supported the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Bringing slaves over in filthy barges, sitting in their own filth, dying of disease and suicide, breaking up families, whipping people for minor offenses or no offenses, rape, etc……yeah, that’s not exactly Christian. People might have used that as an excuse, but they were in it to make money.

To use another example, would you blame science for slavery? There was a large body of “science” on how black people were inferior to whites, and subhuman. Of course that was to perpetuate the business and assuage people’s consciences. But if we wouldn’t blame science, why religion?

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I think we need a more contemporary moral code. It was a long time ago. Eating shellfish is as bad homosexuality according to the Old Testement. Don’t see anyone passing laws against Red Lobster.

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If you’re versed on Christian concepts, you’ll understand that Christians are not bound by the Law of Moses, or the Levitical Law. The law served as a “schoolmaster” until the coming of Christ. There are some concepts within the law that have been eliminated (not contradicted, as people say) through the New Testament. Dietary laws are specifically addressed in the New Testament. However, so is the “wrongness” of homosexuality. So, this is why there are no laws against Red Lobster, but people still protest gay marriage and such.

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Yes religion influences laws and government. Undeniably. And I believe the more so, the worse.
If it’s only as good as the practicing individual we should probably find a better system.
I know. I know. You don’t agree. :)

**************************

Well, I’m not sure what you’re talking about – if what is only as good as the practicing individual in regards to religion or politics? *L* If its the first, you’re right, I don’t agree. Every person who espouses any philosophy is subject to hypocrisy, whether it be a secular philosophy, a political philosophy, or a religious philosophy. People say “live and let live” on one hand, and then they say, “Those freaks aught to be stopped” on the other hand. Our beautiful country threw boxes and boxes of perfectly good tea in Boston Harbor to protest the right of their country to tax them, and later formed another country where the tax code is infinitely greater and more complex. Even fiction, lets look at the Prime Directive – Its the most important rule that we break every week. You can’t single out religion as the only, or worse culprit. But if it makes you feel better, the Bible is very implicit on how many false doctrines, hypocrites, fake people, etc, there will be, so it’s all according to schedule.

448. LogicalLeopard - March 25, 2014

Oh, and by the way….has anyone seen this great movie called Star Trek Into Darkness? I watched it again last night, and I’m telling you, it gets better and better with every re-watch. It’s a pretty nifty update of the franchise. Lots of nice little touches, like the TOS whirrs and whistles when the father is setting up his workstation, about to blow up the Kelvin memorial. Not only is Scotty funny, but he’s a great Mary Sue (am I using that term correctly?) perspective for the fans. Don’t think the Enterprise should be underwater? Neither does Scotty? What’s with all the hunting down of “illegitimate children” and vengeance, cuz Scotty thought we were explorers. Great maturity arc for Kirk, great to finally see Kirk LOSE and discover at a young age that there is a such thing as a no-win scenario (unless you have Scotty to save the day).

And the death scene….I’m telling you, I’m a big giant ball of machismo, but that gets the liquid doing the rhumba on the edge of my eyelids. It doesn’t fall, no, but it comes close. I don’t know if I really noticed it, or realized the significance before, but it looks like Kirk tries to do the Vulcan salute when he dies. Telling Spock, who ironically died fighting the other Khan, to live long and prosper. And the Khan yell was totally appropriate. Thought so then, know so now. Spock’s yell made more sense than Kirk’s did. After all, Kirk was buried alive….alive….alive…..alive…buuut, didn’t they have communicators? Or wasn’t it a chance, within, oh, the next year, few months, that someone was going to come by and check on the station, do a life signs check, and find them there? But Kirk was DEAD. And he died right after Pike, who Spock mind melded with prior to his death and felt what he felt. And oh yeah, about a year or so AFTER SPOCKS WHOLE PLANET DIED. So its pretty safe to say that Spock is emotionally compromised enough to yell at Khan, who went back on his word and attacked the Enterprise in such a manner that it knocked the warp engine out.

Just a good movie. Certainly more enjoyable than the majority of the TNG movies. Only a smidge less enjoyable than some of the TOS movies, and that’s only because watching the TOS cast is…well, watching the TOS cast. Lots of fond memories and fuzzy feelings for those people who watched the original run, or watched the reruns like I did when I was a kid shortly before TNG came out.

449. Keachick - March 25, 2014

Son of Jello first started commenting on the wording style of my posts here and then began copying phrases that I had used in an above post, out of context, to write, what Marja described as “free form poetry”. Then he commented on Marja’s style, then quoted me again, and now this binary stuff.

It feels a bit off…

450. Keachick - March 25, 2014

Yay! Living downunder can be good, because it is now 26 march, 9.45am.

This means I can say – Happy Birthday, Leonard Nimoy who is also 83, like William Shatner. Have a good one, Leonard!

451. Disinvited - March 25, 2014

#442. Cygnus-X1 – March 25, 2014

Excellent response. Exactly what I was addressing by posting that.

#440. NuFan – March 25, 2014

It is beyond me how anyone can seriously come away from a post where I said it is NOT an either/or binary proposition and erroneously claim that I advocate what you claim. The closest I came to something remotely akin to your claim was saying that IF nuTrek’s success is truly is built on bleeding edge SFX over all else then it is not economically sustainable by the likes of nuParamount which is still holding to the patterns of old Paramount’s business attempts to wrestle with Trek.

#443. Red Dead Ryan – March 25, 2014

That is a fear and not a universal axiomatic truth. The fear can easily be dispelled as false because this is the WORLD wide web and English is NOT the mother tongue of a vast many who peruse here. Likewise, just because English is the majority of the posts contributed here, doesn’t mean that first language speakers of German, French, Spanish, nay even Binary if such truly exist, etc. will discover that the vast majority of those posts are made solely to talk smack about them. That is, your “usual” claim is a non sequitur; it does not follow.

#447. LogicalLeopard – March 25, 2014

You lost me at the part where altSpock after being emotionally compromised in the 1st film, learned absolutely nothing from that experience, phoned himself in the second film so as to be ready for any and everything that his Khan would be capable of throwing at him, and still was so surprised by that Khan’s actions that he still allowed himself to, yet again, become so emotionally compromised as to yell “KHANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!” and yet still had the presence of mind and clarity of logical thought to successfully deploy a Trojan horse against him?

452. Disinvited - March 25, 2014

#449. Keachick – March 25, 2014

This is going to bug me all day:Something, in what vestige of my youthful eidetic memory circuits that remains, is firing an alert that someone associated with the recent movies has a birthday between Shatner and Nimoy. It can’t be Chris because I’m certain you’d be all over it. But for lack of a better word for it, it “feels” like someone on that level is being referenced in those cobwebs of my mind.

453. Keachick - March 25, 2014

First, Son of Jello and now Disinvited going on some kind of fritz.

Leonard Nimoy (aka TOS Star Trek Mr Spock) was born on 26 March 1931, four days after William Shatner (aka TOS Star Trek Captain James Kirk). William Shatner was born in Montreal, Canada and Leonard Nimoy was born in Boston, USA. They were both born into Orthodox Jewish families.

Chris Pine (aka TOS Star Trek alt. Captain James Kirk) was born on 26 August 1980 in Los Angeles, USA and not into an Orthodox Jewish family.

In NZ, where I am, it is now 26 March – hence, Happy Birthday, Leonard Nimoy!
Does that clarify things for you?

454. Disinvited - March 25, 2014

#449. Keachick – March 25, 2014

I ferreted it out. It wasn’t nuTrek. It was Trek owning CBS’ show:THE BIG BANG THEORY’s Jim Parsons.

455. Disinvited - March 25, 2014

#447. LogicalLeopard – March 25, 2014

BTW I always wondered why if prime Khan truly wanted to leave prime Kirk buried alive, didn’t he blast Regula I to bits? I mean he acts as if he didn’t just have his posterior handed to him because of Kirk’s skill at operating things (such as, oh I don’t know, Regula I’s transporters?) via remote control?

Not to mention Prime Spock and Kirk right after his buried alive retrieval staring at a tactical display showing Khan parked right outside of Regula I and they don’t remotely order that station’s fusion reactors to blow?

456. Red Dead Ryan - March 25, 2014

#450.

“That is a fear and not a universal axiomatic truth. The fear can easily be dispelled as false because this is the WORLD wide web and English is NOT the mother tongue of a vast many who peruse here. Likewise, just because English is the majority of the posts contributed here, doesn’t mean that first language speakers of German, French, Spanish, nay even Binary if such truly exist, etc. will discover that the vast majority of those posts are made solely to talk smack about them. That is, your “usual” claim is a non sequitur; it does not follow.”

Well then how come they can’t just say it in plain English to whomever it’s directed to or about?

If I see a couple of non-English speaking people laughing, talking, and pointing at me then its plain obvious they’re making fun of or insulting me.

Same goes for this site. Most people here speak English, at least the ones who post. The articles are written in English. Most of us are unilingual. So when someone directs a post at someone else (who only speaks/reads/writes in English) in a language other than English, its clearly not done for complimentary reasons.

And in the case of Son Of Jello’s Binary code-speak, I think it was a matter of him thinking he’s more clever than everyone else when in fact it smacks of condescention and the “I am smarter than you so let’s see if you can keep up with me” attitude.

457. lostrod - March 25, 2014

Totally off topic here, but …

Just completed my seventh Bataan Memorial Death March at White Sands Missile Range this past weekend. It will be my last in military status since I officially retire next January.

However, I intend to continue to participate in a civilian status. Would love to see Star Trek fans participate in an event that celebrates the human spirit to overcome incredible odds.

6,200 folks from around the globe participated this year!

Anyone interested in the event can check out:

http://www.bataanmarch.com/

I did see a Darth Vader mask at the White Sands Missile Range Museum. It would be nice to have a Star Trek presence as well …

Regards.

458. Disinvited - March 26, 2014

#456. Red Dead Ryan – March 25, 2014 t can be used that is clear

Well, first off, your notion that there exists a version of English that is simple, precise and clearly understood by all is a myth. Plain English doesn’t exist. All one well spoken English speaker has to do to disabuse oneself of this notion is go to any local shopping mall and listen to the reigning sought after demographic speak it.

I can even go you one better. I am 3rd generation descended from European immigrants who didn’t speak a lick of English who immigrated half way around the globe to another land where the local tongue wasn’t English nor was it theirs. However, to encourage investment in that foreign land and its peoples, waves of immigration from various and sundry other lands, none of which shared a common tongue, were encouraged. A non-English based conglomeration of this Babel of tongues began to emerge as an expedient way to conduct business in this land. My ancestors, not specifically but as a part of a collective immigrant whole of peoples from their common place of origin, realized that the wealth and power in this land had centered on a few, truly minority native English speakers so they adapted the operating business lingo to appear more like English to more effectively deal with those powerful few even though what they ended up with was far from it as far as most English speakers the world over were concerned. And yet, the U.S. “annexed” this land and their children born after that time became, as I learned at a family multigenerational reunion first hand, xenophobic U.S. citizens who can’t understand if they can speak “plain” English why can’t any other English is a second language person?

And yet in the “English” they mastered apparently “plain” and common sounding phrases, such as “My mother, she like (sic) you.”, parse to nothing like I have ever come across in any English that I was ever taught in any entity at which I matriculated.

To them it means “My mother wants to see you.”

As a person who actually learned to speak a second language, I believe the answer as to why non-native speakers jump out of speaking English is that it is one thing to be able to speak another tongue, it is quite another thing to actually “think” in a non-native tongue. So when the opportunity presents itself in a stimulating conversation to go “native”, as it were, it is amazingly easy to unintentionally slip out and not even be conscious of it.

Also, I was born and raised in the South of these United States, and I can assure you that having “plain” English spoken is in no way a guarantee of a conversation free of hidden insults and hidden meaning. Dixie Southerners have(had? maybe it’s mellowed since last I was there decades ago?) ways of insulting “yankees” right in front of their faces and leaving them none the wiser.

459. Disinvited - March 26, 2014

#457. lostrod – March 25, 2014

Good on you, Sir. My Great Uncle of the first generation of naturalized citizens of which I recently spoke, lost his life at the hands of the enemy during that march across the jungle in WWII as their prisoner of war.

My thanks for your service and your service in this.

460. Marja - March 26, 2014

HAPPY BIRTHDAY LEONARD NIMOY!
love and happiness to you sir!

461. Marja - March 26, 2014

458 Disinvited, well, when I hear “bless your heart,” I have to decide from the context whether or not I’m being insulted … but yes, as a “plain-spoken” Yankee I have run into the subtle insult occasionally.

Or perhaps “often,” seeing that I may not have a flippin’ clue half the time ;-D

462. LogicalLeopard - March 26, 2014

451. Disinvited – March 25, 2014

You lost me at the part where altSpock after being emotionally compromised in the 1st film, learned absolutely nothing from that experience,

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Wait, what? Learned absolutely nothing from that experience? What do you mean by that? That’s less of a “learning” experience than a grieving experience, followed by an acceptance experience.

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phoned himself in the second film so as to be ready for any and everything that his Khan would be capable of throwing at him, and still was so surprised by that Khan’s actions that he still allowed himself to, yet again, become so emotionally compromised as to yell “KHANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!” and yet still had the presence of mind and clarity of logical thought to successfully deploy a Trojan horse against him?

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Your timeline is a little off on that.

1) Spock phoned altSpock telling him how dangerous Khan was, or basically, be ready for anything and everything

2) Spock does so, having the presense and clarity of logical thought to do so.

3) Kirk dies saving the ship

4) Spock becomes emotionally compromised to yell Khan.

Now, I’m not saying that Spock was “roaming the halls weeping” ever since Vulcan and Pike, but I would imagine it’d work like this – Vulcan dies, it’s emotionally compromising, but he’s able to hold it together (other than when choking out Kirk), and suppress those emotions. They’re kicking around space, then he has a near death experience (which I left out before) Alright, it’s scary, but he held it under control. Then Pike dies and he mind melds with him. Leaves him shaken, and unwilling to feel those emotions again, probably because he’s also getting flashbacks of Vulcan and his own NDE. Then Kirk dies. Right when he’s starting to discover the meaning and complexity of friendship. He becomes emotionally compromised.

I can tell you from experience, sometimes things just catch up with you. I remember that when I was young, I used to cry at about every other funeral. At the funeral of a relative I really wasn’t close to, I’d be crying for the relative at the last funeral who I was close to and DIDN”T cry for at the time. Emotions are tricky. It’s fair to say that with all of the stuff Spock has been through in the last two movies, he would yell Khan.

Another angle to it is that he’s yelling at Khan for precisely the same reason Kirk did – he got beat by him. Spock saves the day by blowing up Khan, saves the ship by refusing to abandon it and staying on the bridge until the engines mysteriously kick in (facing death again) and thinks the threat is over. Until Jim turns up dead. It’s like when George Brett hit that homer, and then found out that the umpire disqualified it because he had too much pine tar on his bat *LOL* If you don’t know what I’m talking about, google that and see if there’s footage. That’s a great moment of a guy losing his mind *LOLOLOL*

Wow….I’m rather more tickled at that analogy than I should be, imagining Spock coming off a bench with his arms waving. They should have had Solok do that in “Take Me Out to The Holosuite.”

463. LogicalLeopard - March 26, 2014

455. Disinvited – March 25, 2014

BTW I always wondered why if prime Khan truly wanted to leave prime Kirk buried alive, didn’t he blast Regula I to bits? I mean he acts as if he didn’t just have his posterior handed to him because of Kirk’s skill at operating things (such as, oh I don’t know, Regula I’s transporters?) via remote control?

Not to mention Prime Spock and Kirk right after his buried alive retrieval staring at a tactical display showing Khan parked right outside of Regula I and they don’t remotely order that station’s fusion reactors to blow?

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Yeah, there’s a bunch of things that could/should have gone different. We might attribute Khan’s actions to his either wanting Kirk to suffer, or eccentricity, but really, I’d think Khan being a superman and all didn’t get to rule almost a quarter of the earth by behaving like a Batman villain.

But really, it is what it is….a device to move the plot along. I’m becoming more and more comfortable with things like that. There were probably a dozen similar situations like that in STID. Can’t beam Khan away because he’s moving. But you can beam Uhura and Spock onto a moving platform, and Adm. Marcus beamed Carol away while she was moving around the bridge. You have all of these ships parked around Earth, yet no-one intervenes or gets close to render assistance to the Enterprise and Vengeance. Yeah, Marcus could have ordered them to stand down, but no one thinks to sling a tractor beam around them when they start drifting towards earth? Or, come on, at least DESTROY THEM BEFORE THEY REACH ORBIT AND LAND IN A POPULATED AREA. *LOL* Just thought about that right now. But hey, it’s all about fun. My standard is, if you think about a point like that during the movie, it’s poorly executed. But if you think about it after the movie, or better yet, after repeated viewings, it’s fine, because the film did what it was supposed to do – hook you in and suspend your disbelief.

464. LogicalLeopard - March 26, 2014

Deleted Scene from Star Trek Into Darkness

Officer: Starfleet Orbital Defense to Starfleet Command, we show two starships; one identified as the USS Enterprise, the other unidentified, but carrying Starfleet CINC, both are plummeting towards the planet. Life signs detected aboard both ships. The USS Bradbury and USS Lexington are moving in to tractor. Should those ships not reach in time, request permission to fire orbital defenses and prevent ships from landing in populated areas.

Starfleet Command: Belay that.

Officer:………………uhm, repeat traffic, Starfleet Command?

Starfleet Command: Belay that. Per CinC, everything is fine, all officers commanded to stand down.

Officer: But….present speed and course say that the Enterprise will land in downtown Sao Paulo Brazil, the unidentified ship in Findlay, Ohi…..wait….unidentified ship setting new course. Estimated landing…..SAN FRANSICO, STARFLEET HEADQUARTERS!!!

Starfleet Command: Stand down, that’s an order from CINCSTARFLEET. Don’t you know you can always trust Peter Weller in a movie?

465. Cygnus-X1 - March 26, 2014

461. Marja – March 26, 2014

well, when I hear “bless your heart,” I have to decide from the context whether or not I’m being insulted

I read recently that “Bless your heart” is usually intended as an insult in the South. I think it’s supposed to be condescension, as in talking down to someone who’s trying their best but just doesn’t have the wit or mental faculties to figure things out.

But, the issue that you raise is actually one step removed from an insult, sort of a meta-insult: Whether the other person THINKS that they are insulting you. It’s not just whether you feel insulted, because if you don’t feel insulted and don’t know that you’re being insulted, then why would you care? But, we do care, because it bothers us that the other person may think that they are insulting us. And we can’t have that. I mean, who do they think they are? They’ve got some nerve thinking that they can think that they are insulting US.

466. crazydaystrom - March 26, 2014

Happy Birthday Mr. Nimoy!!
You’ve been my favorite Star Trek performer for since 1966 and I don’t expect that to ever change!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

It makes me incredibly happy that you have truly lived long and prospered!

467. TwoGunGunnar - March 26, 2014

Now that they’ve pointlessly rehashed Khan, next they’ll do Tribbles or Borg. Again. And it will be set against Kirk growing from a brash and immature reckless young kid into a mature and responsible man. Again. Still.

As long as we don’t get anything new, I’ll be happy. Because when it comes to Star Trek, as a true fan, I have no interest in anything new or different. I want the same thing over and over and over again. I’m glad the filmmakers understand this…there’s no way I’d want to see a Star Trek story involving anything new and unfamiliar.

468. Tom - March 26, 2014

Wow 83 years old. I still hope that Bob and team include them in some way for the 50th anniversary if they are ready willing and able.

469. Keachick - March 26, 2014

As it now says March 26 on my screen, I can say again

Happy Birthday Leonard Nimoy! You have a good one and good new year!

470. Keachick - March 26, 2014

Wow, Disinvited – what you say about English speaking and writing may be so in general terms. Think context – here on this thread, what is being said by and to posters here now.

However my correct(?) assumption here is that Red Dead Ryan was writing his comment #443 in relation to what was being written by a poster on this thread on this site, ie Son of Jello’s binary which seemed to be a response to what I, Keachick and Marja had both told this poster about how he referred to our usage of words and phrases in a derogatory manner. He used our words to put us down and derail the discussion and finally resorted to use of binary. In this particular context, it is hard not to believe that the use of binary was intended as some kind of insult against us two posters.

471. B Kramer - March 26, 2014

Happy Birthday Leonard Nimoy – surely the best of times.

http://mashable.com/2014/03/26/spock-party-tips/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilFzLb9D2fQ&feature=kp

“Logic is a tweeting bird”

LLAP

472. LogicalLeopard - March 27, 2014

467. TwoGunGunnar – March 26, 2014

As long as we don’t get anything new, I’ll be happy. Because when it comes to Star Trek, as a true fan, I have no interest in anything new or different. I want the same thing over and over and over again. I’m glad the filmmakers understand this…there’s no way I’d want to see a Star Trek story involving anything new and unfamiliar.

********************************

I don’t think the filmmakers care much either way, because they know they’ll get flack either way. They introduce elements that are familiar to Trek fans, and maybe unfamiliar to non-Trek fans, and they get flack for “rehashing” things. If they changed it completely and did something unique, they’d get flack from people saying, “Man, what is this? It doesn’t even seem like Star Trek?!” So they probably go with trying to make a good, Star Trek centered, entertaining movie. They’ve been successful, in my opinion. Twice.

473. Curious Cadet - March 27, 2014

@280. Marja,
“Matt knocked off a number of mysterious posters when he took MJ off …. ”

Is that what happened? Yeah, there were a dozen “associates” who “coincidentally” vanished with his disappearance, as if they were the same person.

Trekmovie just ins’t the same place without every other post accusing someone of being a “sock puppet”, or concluding a scathing personal straw-man argument with “Fact!” or “Case Closed!”. How are we supposed to know what to think without the same chorus of voices serendipitously chiming in only to support one another’s particular position?

The debates have been largely way too lucid and productive here lately. Somebody needs to bring a stop to this! ;-)

474. crazydaystrom - March 27, 2014

473. Curious Cadet

” Yeah, there were a dozen “associates” who “coincidentally” vanished with his disappearance, as if they were the same person.

Trekmovie just ins’t the same place without every other post accusing someone of being a “sock puppet”, or concluding a scathing personal straw-man argument with “Fact!” or “Case Closed!”.”

Yeah CC. We used to say as kids “When you point a finger at someone the other fingers on that hand point at you.” I guess as far as sock puppetry goes around here…”Case Closed!”

“Fact!”

475. Marja - March 27, 2014

Curious, heh – we could always bring up [1] conspiracy theories [2] screen ratios [3] politics, [4] pasty Khan khasting, [5] LOOK UNDIES! or [6] Kirk/Spock romance fans vs. Spock/Uhura romance fans for Contentious Posting Redux, but let’s not.

Daystrom, naw, I don’t think Curious is one of ‘em. I could be wrong, but although s/he [I think 'he'] agrees here and there, I haven’t seen him consistently hammering away at the same ol’ blah-blah-blah along with “the crowd[s]” on either of the usual opposing sides.

THANK YOU MATT for discontinuing the wank when you see it.

I miss MJ’s reasonable posts. He was doing okay for about three months … until the Screen Ratio Arguments, then it all went down the road to ruin….

476. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

Wait, did I miss something ? Was MJ banned from the site ?

As CC mentioned, I did noticed the absence of MJ & the rest of his faction but I thought they were just away or something, not that they were banned.

477. Marja - March 27, 2014

477, Ahmed, All I know is that they got into some major wankitude a week or two ago; Matt asked them to cool it, and they didn’t. BOOM!

“… and his faction” LOL

478. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

@477. Marja

“All I know is that they got into some major wankitude a week or two ago; Matt asked them to cool it, and they didn’t. BOOM!”

oh ok, interesting!

Sometime it was like a civil war going on here, so “faction” seemed the “right” way to describe that group ;)

479. Who cares - March 27, 2014

I personally find it a little strange that MJ would get banned when far more offensive people like Son of Jello and William Bradley are not. Just my opinion, but even on MJ’s worst days he was never as bad as those two’s best days.

480. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

@479. Who cares

William Bradley is not here anymore as well.

And I don’t think he was banned, perhaps MJ is just not interested anymore.

481. Phil - March 27, 2014

Moderators have put people on time out before. MJ has walked away before, so if he was banned it must have been something really out of character for him, considering some of the stuff I’ve seen here recently.

482. Phil - March 27, 2014

Went to my first Mormon service last night. No one was eating the children, no virgins sacrificed, no women abused, just honoring some teachers within the school district. Who knew, they seem to put some value on public education. Had you not noticed the referenced to the Prophet Smith, you could just as easily have been in a Catholic or Lutheran service.

Concerns about the writers faith are way overblown. Comments about their experience, or lack of it, are fair game. If someone has an axe to grind about faith in general, take it somewhere else. People of faith are an asset to any community. Dogma detracts from it. Case closed.

483. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

@482. Phil

“Case closed.”

Wait, you can’t say that. That is RDR’s trademark. By using it, you are violating his intellectual property :)

Side note: There is no such thing as “case closed”. Everything under the sun is subject to review/modification/change.

484. moauvian waoul - March 27, 2014

482. You seem to speak from only your experiences.
They the only ones that matter.

485. LogicalLeopard - March 27, 2014

482. Phil – March 27, 2014
Went to my first Mormon service last night. No one was eating the children, no virgins sacrificed, no women abused, just honoring some teachers within the school district. Who knew, they seem to put some value on public education. Had you not noticed the referenced to the Prophet Smith, you could just as easily have been in a Catholic or Lutheran service.

Concerns about the writers faith are way overblown. Comments about their experience, or lack of it, are fair game. If someone has an axe to grind about faith in general, take it somewhere else. People of faith are an asset to any community. Dogma detracts from it. Case closed.

************************************************

*LOLOLOLOL* No human sacrifices? No abuse? No children with teary eyes in the back pews going, “This is horrible…one day we’re going to grow up and be socially accepted for mocking our faith and everyone elses with a wildly popular cartoon. We’re not going to sell out and incorporate the words and concepts of Joseph Smith into popular science fiction franchises from the 60′s like those uncool kids in the front pew.”

486. Phil - March 27, 2014

@483 Would not be the first time I’ve been guilty of copyright infringement.

For all the back and forth that has gone on on the topic, you are the only person who presented a legitimate reason to be questioning a motivation based on faith. And questioning is a legitimate duty of an individual in a free society. Most of what got tossed around were vary broad based indictment based on a personal bias, dogma, if you will, with little or no basis in fact. The facts, are that people of faith, be they Mormon, Jewish, Islamic, or any other community, are assets to their community, and their contributions are largely unnoticed because they are taken for granted. It’s when some idiot straps on a explosive vest or burns a cross on someone’s lawn that people of honor have to discern who these people are speaking for. Though I consider myself a person of faith, I also push back when I see a broad based attack on any group, because when an exception is presented as the rule good people are attacked unnecessarily, sadly, a lot of that has gone on here in the name of tolerance. And it should stop.

To that end, it’s commendable that our new writers find value in their faith. It’s also commendable that they made a professional pitch for the next Trek project, and I trust their familiarity with the brand will allow them to prepare a quality product. There really are not any negatives here, unless the next movie sucks…

487. Disinvited - March 27, 2014

#470. Keachick – March 26, 2014

Again, I get that that was the fear. But here are the translations of binary contributed by him:

“As long as you feel something,your going to be OK”

“it makes you feel there is always something better.”

“No comment.”

Cold hard data that demonstrates those binary fears were indeed not fact.

For me, it just seems weird to have expanded Trek fandom from a core group where everyone learned the lesson of DEVIL IN THE DARK to one where few know what that episode was about? Not a put down, just an observation that I find fascinating.

488. Phil - March 27, 2014

@484. My own experiences would include a decent understanding of history, the abuses that occurred within it, and how they were resolved. No where have I suggested that institutions of faith were anymore immune to the corruptions of power then their secular counterparts. If history is to be of any use as a guide, it’s been the rise of education and freedom of the individual that has been the most effective counter to these corruptions of power. We cannot be naïve, it’s not within our nature to eliminate the competitive drives from which conflict will arise, the best we can hope for is to continue to learn and grow to minimize the damage from that conflict.

489. Who cares - March 27, 2014

@Ahmed. A number of the comments on this thread make it sound as if MJ was banned so thats where I was getting that, if I am wrong I am glad to be.

As far as William Bradley goes I am aware he does not come around anymore, and thank goodness for small favors, but he was also never banned despite the fact that on multiple occassions he committed banable offenses as defined by Anthony.

490. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

@489. Who cares

“As far as William Bradley goes I am aware he does not come around anymore, and thank goodness for small favors, but he was also never banned despite the fact that on multiple occassions he committed banable offenses as defined by Anthony.”

Well, Anthony never gave him a warning or banned him during these episodes.

491. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2014

I don’t where MJ is right now. I seem to recall a few weeks ago Matt kicking him off a thread where he was arguing with someone else.

William Bradley still showed up once in a while, though he hasn’t for a couple of months.

492. Keachick - March 27, 2014

Unless the moderator specifically tells us that a certain poster is banned, we have no way of knowing anything for certain.

People do get busy, go on holiday or just get disinterested or have no wish to contribute to a particular topic being discussed or whatever. They will come back when they are ready and want to…or not.

#486 – I agree. People of faith have contributed a tremendous amount that is good, even wonderful. This cannot be overlooked and I am certainly not one to do that. I am looking at a bookmark that has been lying around and on it is written the *Prayer of Francis of Assisi – no more truer and more beautiful affirmation/prayer to have been handed down to us by a person of Catholic Christian faith from way back when. Some things endure because they need to and should and this is one of them.

Re: the issue of people of various faiths writing movie scripts – I have not condemned these people for doing so. I have no problem with JD Payne or anybody else contributing their skills so that a good third Star Trek film can get made. It just appears that I was the first to notice JD Payne’s admission and belief in his Mormon faith and wonder how this might influence his story writing. I was curious and excited. Nothing has changed in this respect for me.

As I said before, legislating/law making for a society of people who can be diverse in how they feel, experience, understand is a tough balancing act and perhaps it is meant to be, if we (irrespective of our faith/beliefs particular to us an individuals) are to have fair laws and a harmonious society. I do think that a truly humanist (secular) society may be the best way to achieve that worthy goal.

(And no, I do not think that mayors have the right to tell others what they can and cannot eat – ref. New York Mayors embargo on sale of certain food items – I am not sure quite what that is all about, but it does not sound good.)

Unfortunately, abuse of power and privilege is a very human trait, one of the more unpleasant ones. It takes people of goodwill and conscience to see it for what it is and stop it. Goodwill and conscience are other very human traits, of the better kind.

493. Gary Neumann - March 27, 2014

I WONDER…

About who could be the Director of this third installment of the movie…

Any ideas?

494. Cygnus-X1 - March 27, 2014

488. Phil – March 27, 2014

The facts, are that people of faith, be they Mormon, Jewish, Islamic, or any other community, are assets to their community, and their contributions are largely unnoticed because they are taken for granted.

I didn’t get involved in the whole Mormon discussion, but you’re making a sweeping generalization here that is not accurate.

I’m sure that many gay people who’ve been oppressed would not agree that their faithful oppressors oppressing them in the name of their faith are “assets to their community who contributions are largely unnoticed.”

I’d also venture to say that the families of people who’ve died due to lack of certain medical treatment, such as what could have been developed via stem-cell research that was banned by the faithful, would not be so appreciative of their efforts but would surely have noticed them.

Women who’ve wanted/needed abortions, due to rape, incest and a variety of other circumstances would likewise not be so appreciative of efforts by the faithful at imposing their religious views/opinions upon those who don’t share them.

And then, of course, the “religious right” who, in addition to the aforementioned, vehemently campaigns for public policy which is antithetical to the teachings of their supposed prophet, such as policies that increase the wealth of the richest at the expense of everyone else. Also, they’re anti-Science and, in practice, they promote ignorance of the natural world when knowledge of it contradicts their faith.

The only point I’m trying to make is that it’s not accurate to generalize about religious people one way or the other. There are some who really are assets to their community and try hard not to hurt good people in the name of their religion, and there are some who campaign vigorously for policies that have and will continue to hurt entire swaths of good people. And there are some who are in between.

As for Trek, I think that the franchise has been extraordinarily conscientious, thoughtful and fair in its treatment of religion across its 5 TV series and in film so far.

495. Phil - March 27, 2014

Hard to say, but it’s safe money that whoever it is will have probably worked with JJ/Bad Robot/KO before.

496. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

@ 494. Phil – March 27, 2014

“Hard to say, but it’s safe money that whoever it is will have probably worked with JJ/Bad Robot/KO before.”

Yeah, and with the suggestion of a budget cut, they will probably hire one of the “new talents” at BR/KO!

497. moauvian waoul - March 27, 2014

438. Disinvited.
Dude you just made me smile. I do enjoy the whole multiverse – string theory of everything. Not heard that one thought.

498. Who cares - March 27, 2014

@Ahmed, Bradley didn’t really start his descent into being a total feces spewing troll until after Anthony disappeared shortly after STID came out. Anthony warned Bradley several times before he split, but Anthony has not been seen or heard from on here since, so naturally he wasn’t around to ban Bradley. The mods still running this site now though should be using the same rule set that Anthony put in place, but sadly that is not what I see around here anymore, which is part of why I only rarely post here anymore.

Another part is the bizarre choices of what news gets a story and what doesn’t, I mean I disagreed with Anthony on that sometimes, I still wonder why Brent Spiner doing the voice of The Joker on the Young Justice animated series didn’t get a story. Regardless Anthony certainly would have put up a story about Tim Russ reprising Tuvok in Star Trek Online, which Matt and the others have not bothered with. Despite the fact that they cover Russ’s involvement with Renegades, and the release of the Mac client for STO. I just don’t get what is going on with the selective coverage of stories, I suppose maybe the news about Russ in STO could have been an “Exclusive” story for another site, maybe Trektoday, Trekcore, or even the official Star Trek site, but you would think that by the time they put up the story on the STO Mac release they could include a note about Russ, since the Mac release was months after the mission with Russ’s voice was released.

Anyway rant over, see you all in a week or so

499. moauvian waoul - March 27, 2014

No human sacrifice? Surprised ? Really? Maybe this will surprise you. Do you know why there a black people according to Mormon faith? Supposedly they were a tribe of Mormons who sinned against God and were turned black as punishment. No grey area there. (Forgive the pun). Not much room to negotiate either since it’s an inherently racist notion. And since we’re sharing our personal experiences with Mormons I will quickly do the same. While I was living in Utah I witnessed many incidents and heard of plenty more but this one I stands out. I had a close friend who would visit me from Atlanta. She was African-American. We were at a restaurant where we were not served and eventually had to take the hint. Closest table to the server station. We got plenty of looks and were followed in stores by security but there were people who would not even speak to her, but only to me. This was downtown Salt Lake City. It was the worst she had ever bee treated and she’s from Georgia. The problems with racism didn’t end in the late 70′s I’m sad to report, and they aren’t going to end anytime soon. Oh then there was that time I went out to PF Changs with a Mongolian friend… I think I’ll save it for another time.

500. moauvian waoul - March 27, 2014

The concerns some people have are real.

501. Keachick - March 27, 2014

#498 – Yes, they are!

502. Phil - March 27, 2014

@497 Hey, you know what?? The KKK was populated by white men. Therefore, white men are racist, right? Seriously, if you’d like to trot out every single failing of any particular group or creed, I can match you offence for offence with some atrocity completely and totally rooted in secular thought. That isn’t the point – the point is, people figured it out. Antiquated notions fell by the wayside. We don’t live in a feudal society anymore where people were bartered or treated as property. We don’t ostracize race. We are getting there with women and orientation. It didn’t happen because collectively we woke up one morning and decided to stop, we got there because courageous individuals stood up and moved against the tide, sometimes at the cost of there own life. And frequently these were people of faith leading the charge. the point is, right is right, regardless of motivation. Yeah, it really sucks when someone does something stupid, but I’m no more going to label Mormons racist for the actions of an individual anymore then I’d label Caucasians racist because of the existence of the Klan.

503. moauvian waoul - March 27, 2014

So when people are wronged that don’t resemble you or agree with you, even if it’s well documented and institutionalized and lasts for centuries and may result in hardships and death, well they need to get over it, but you can be outraged when your feelings get hurt because someone doesn’t agree in your superior moral stance. How Christian of you. Your response was disappointing if not unexpected.

504. moauvian waoul - March 27, 2014

Here we go. In this corner: the straight white, endangered and oft oppressed Christian male with massive, powerful arms and a long reach but thinned skinned with short-term memory loss, still living in the past…

And in this corner: the takers…
:)

505. crazydaystrom - March 27, 2014

475. Marja
“Daystrom, naw, I don’t think Curious is one of ‘em.”

I don’t either Marja and wasn’t implying that he or she was. But I can see how my post could be mis-inferred that I thought so.

I apologize Curious Cadet if you thought I was pointing a finger at you. I was not. Just MJ and her or his sad and unholy legion of iterations. smh

506. Rick - March 27, 2014

This message board has gotten way out of hand lol

Also, what’s this I hear about Pine drunk driving? That’s disappointing to hear.

I’m curious to see how the new writing team does, as I was overall less than impressed by STID. I hope we don’t have to wait another 4-5 years for the next one. Also less death and revenge and more exploring would be nice this time around. And more focus on the characters. I’d like to see more Bones getting involved in the big decisions and start showing the evolution of the triumvirate that they are meant to be. More screen time for the other supporting cast, less of that Spock and Uhura crap and please, I love Nimoy but no more convenient calls to prime spock. I enjoyed the cameo in st09, but the last one was just silly.

I think the entire cast does a great job, but I’ve been less than pleased with how some of the characters have been written. Bones was nothing more than the comic relief in STID, and sulu and Chekov? They had about 10 lines total between the two of them. I won’t even get into the rest of the crew, but I’m really hoping things change for the better in the next one.

507. Curious Cadet - March 27, 2014

@76. Ahmed,
“I did noticed the absence of MJ & the rest of his faction but I thought they were just away or something, not that they were banned.”

LOL … yes they all got a group rate vacation package together and are off on a desert island without internet access for almost a month now… Haha I didn’t know you had such a sense of humor.

508. Ahmed - March 27, 2014

@507. Curious Cadet

“yes they all got a group rate vacation package together and are off on a desert island without internet access for almost a month now…”

Why not? They are probably relaxing at Temtibi lagoon on Risa as we speak ;)

509. Cygnus-X1 - March 28, 2014

283. Red Dead Ryan – March 21, 2014

MJ and co. will be back, you can count on that.

And how do you know this, exactly?

I ask because the way that you’ve phrased that is very curious: “MJ and co.”

It’s as though you’re saying that where ever MJ goes the others are sure to follow.

Since a few people have mentioned it, I just scrolled back through some of the threads where “MJ and co.,” as you put it, were all echoing the exact, same idiosyncratic demands and leveling the same bizarre accusations and charges at people. And, I noticed something very curious indeed…

Whenever MJ would get upset/angry about something, there would be up to 7 other identities who would immediately chime in, echoing the same, bizarre sentiments, in much the same language and particular style of phrasing.

And these other identities would often post to each other criticisms/insults about a poster with whom MJ had taken issue. The chorus of identities echoing the exact, same demand or accusation would grow, giving the impression that many individuals had all arrived at the same conclusion and were expressing the same sentiment. Though, it was often a twisted, nonsensical conclusion and a mean-spirited sentiment intended to stifle, oppress and derail certain topics of discussion and run off posters who expressed certain points of view.

And I found it very bizarre and confusing that so many individuals should arrive at the same, weird conclusions. And I found it rather peculiar that these people had such loyalty to MJ as to never express anything less than 100% support and agreement for his bizarre accusations and demands. I also found it weird that “MJ and co.” would so often accuse others of posting under aliases. It seemed a strange paranoia.

And then there was the incident a few weeks ago when MJ was shut down by the moderator, and all of the identities that regularly echoed MJ’s bizarre accusations and demands suddenly, immediately stopped posting, all at the same time.

What do you think about all of this, Red Dead Ryan? And how is it that you are so confident that “MJ and co.” will be back? And how would you explain “MJ and co.” acting in such a unified, monolithic manner? I’m very curious about these strange goings on.

510. Disinvited - March 28, 2014

#506. Rick – March 27, 2014

Fairly certain you didn’t intend this, but by leading off with the Chris Pine bit, you created in my mind the impression that you were curious to see what kind of script the new writers would come up with drunk.

Which got me musing and amusing about a HANGOVER type Trek adventure. TwoGunGunnar suggested that the next film will be a tribble rehash although I don’t see how as the tribbles are clearly known in the altuniverse and obviously have been researched? Maybe if McCoy’s Supertribble got loose? Could be a fun way to give McCoy more to do and in resolving this tribble trouble have McCoy’s solution also unintentionally neutralize the the superblood immortality “problem”? Heck, it may be stretching it too far for a comedy but his solution could even make Khan and his acolytes more amenable to traditional 23rd century justice? Of course, that could make McCoy a wrath target (If his cure for Kirk and arming of the torpedoes hasn’t already done so.) …?

511. crazydaystrom - March 28, 2014

509. Cygnus-X1

“283. Red Dead Ryan –
“MJ and co. will be back, you can count on that.
And how do you know this, exactly?”

I know your question wasn’t directed at me Cygnus but I think the situation might have a comic book analogy where the ‘bad guy’ always returns eventually even if he’s been ‘killed’. So unless he or she has been perma-banned from this site MJ will most likely make a grand (and inglourious) return. It may even be a humbled return, or back in another persona, lie low and when it’s least expected – ATTACK!! Because attack is apparantly his (or her) wont.

Anyway-
Enough about that person. I’m so glad there’re so many other interesting and exciting movies in the news and on the horizon because it distracts from my lack-of-Star Trek 50th-news anxiety. I know there’s still time but this old dog wants to be thrown a bone. And one with some meat on it! Dammit!!

512. crazydaystrom - March 28, 2014

510. Disinvited

For me, I want NEW, want INTERESTING, want EXCITING, want INTRIGUING, want SMART SCIENCE FICTION ADVENTURE set in the Star Trek universe!!!! And in 2016. This could happen! Just not sure if it will.

513. crazydaystrom - March 28, 2014

And oh yeah – WANT STAR TREK BACK ON TELEVISION!
It’s there Trek can fulfill its first, best destiny. :-)

514. crazydaystrom - March 28, 2014

And I don’t want a Tribbles/I Mudd/TVH-type humorous outing.

Sorry to’ve quadruple posted, friends. I’m done.

515. Disinvited - March 28, 2014

#513. crazydaystrom – March 28, 2014

Well, at this stage of my existence I’d much rather an Ellisonesque award winning script for a Trek movie. But I do not intend to let my fear that a humorous script will heap more disrespect on Trek from comic circles, dissuade me from giving one a chance if Paramount so deigns to celebrate the 50th in a lighthearted Trek vein. Fun funny Trek can be quite entertaining when done well.

As for tribbles NOT being in a Bad Robot Trek, well, that ship has sailed; they’ve appeared in all their Trek to date. So, it is going to be very awkward to excise all tribbles from it now – especially given how prolific the little buggers are. It seems only logical that whether they are wanted by the fans or not there are going to be tribbles in the next film.

From the series we know: “They are born pregnant.” I, for one, have to admit to being somewhat curious as to whether a resurrected tribble revives in this selfsame state? Perhaps an answer not worthy of building an entire film around, but if the next outing addresses Kirk’s revival on any level it is difficult to see how they leave the superTribble out of it?

516. Ahmed - March 28, 2014

@509. Cygnus-X1

“And then there was the incident a few weeks ago when MJ was shut down by the moderator, and all of the identities that regularly echoed MJ’s bizarre accusations and demands suddenly, immediately stopped posting, all at the same time. ”

I think you mean this incident from “Star Trek Continues releases second episode “Lolani”” thread

” 597. Matt Wright – March 3, 2014

@ MJ – yeah dude we’re done here. I’m not going to allow you to play these games any more.”

So the gang, as I used to call them, are actually one person, MJ!

With the exception of RDR who I think was just going along with “them”, all these other posters were the alter ego of MJ who were basically saying the same thing & coming online at the same time!

Very interesting!

517. Rick - March 28, 2014

@510 Disinvited

LMAO!

Well, I’m down with anything that gives Bones a big chance to shine. Especially Karl Urban, who is think is the best of the reboot cast. To bad they don’t utilize him better, they lucked out getting someone convincing has him. They should use him more wisely.

518. Ensign RedShirt - March 28, 2014

It became very obvious a few weeks back that he was sockpuppeting on a massive scale. Anytime he got into a disagreement with someone his “friends” would all magically appear to agree with him and attack whoever he was arguing with. He created an incredibly toxic atmosphere. It’s been so much more civil and relaxing the last few weeks.

519. crazydaystrom - March 28, 2014

514. Disinvited
#513. crazydaystrom – March 28, 2014

“Well, at this stage of my existence I’d much rather an Ellisonesque award winning script for a Trek movie.”

As well Disinvited, as well. Something of that caliber would be a dream come true for me.

“But I do not intend to let my fear that a humorous script will heap more disrespect on Trek from comic circles, dissuade me from giving one a chance if Paramount so deigns to celebrate the 50th in a lighthearted Trek vein. Fun funny Trek can be quite entertaining when done well.”

Well I certainly will take what’s given and hopefully be entertained by it. And would even hope to be impressed by it. Yeah I agree humorous Trek outings can be quite entertaining. But I’ve always been put off at first when a Trek ep or movie turned out to be a ‘funny Trek’. It’s always taken me a bit to come to appreciate those. It took me fifteen or twenty years to understand the love for ‘The Trouble With Tribbles’. I think it has something to do with discovering, as a child, Star Trek after having been watching Lost In Space for a year or two.

When Star Trek came on the scene the serious tone of the show was like a revelation to me of what ‘serious’ science fiction could be on screen. Anytime Trek was ‘funny’ I felt it was lesser (just my opinion, of course). And when TVH was released it managed to both entertain me AND at the same time annoy me because of the years I would have to wait to get more of my ‘serious’ (worthy) Star Trek. It was the same thing with the Ferengi eps of DS9.

I have grown to love pretty much all of the humorous Treks, especially TVH, but I really don’t want that for the 50th anniversary film. Perhaps in a 50th TV celebration special but for me, not the movie.

If I had my druthers…

520. Cygnus-X1 - March 28, 2014

515. Ahmed – March 28, 2014

So the gang, as I used to call them, are actually one person, MJ!

With the exception of RDR who I think was just going along with “them”, all these other posters were the alter ego of MJ who were basically saying the same thing & coming online at the same time! Very interesting!

It is very interesting, isn’t it.

And, to be perfectly frank, I am surprised to see that Red Dead Ryan was not among the vanished. As I was scrolling through the threads where MJ’s aliases were in full effect, I began writing down the names of posters who would make the same, puzzling demands/accusations as MJ, and who would regularly gang up on whomever MJ was trying to silence and/or run off.

Of the 10 names on my list, Red Dead Ryan and Basement Blogger were the only ones to continue posting after MJ was shut down. What those two have in common with the vanishing aliases is their curious habit of demanding, often on behalf of some unspecified group of people (“we”), that people cease discussion about certain topics forthwith: “We’re tired of your talking about so-and-so; you need to stop or go away,” etc. Maybe they’re not among the MJ aliases, but merely followers, as you say; I’m honestly not sure. But I do find it all very curious.

517. Ensign RedShirt – March 28, 2014

It became very obvious a few weeks back that he was sockpuppeting on a massive scale. Anytime he got into a disagreement with someone his “friends” would all magically appear to agree with him and attack whoever he was arguing with. He created an incredibly toxic atmosphere. It’s been so much more civil and relaxing the last few weeks.

Ain’t that the truth.

I first took notice of it last Summer when MJ and 5 or 6 of his aliases suddenly and without provocation began repeatedly demanding that I cease my discussion with people about the plot of STID. Our discussion was going great and was a lot of fun, and nobody was upset or being mean to anyone. It was really a productive, stimulating, fun discussion. And, all of a sudden, from out of nowhere, there were like 6 identities who were all equally FURIOUS and PANICKED about the discussion that the rest of us were having.

One by one, MJ and these 5 or 6 others “pleaded” that I stop responding to people who’d addressed thoughtful comments to me about STID, and demanded that I discontinue discussing that topic. It was a bizarre thing for one person to say and surreal to see 6 or 7 people saying it in unison. I didn’t suspect at the time that they were actually all MJ, but I did keep noticing those same identities behaving in like fashion henceforth. And when they all disappeared suddenly along with MJ a few weeks ago, it clicked.

521. Disinvited - March 28, 2014

And the winner is:

http://www.deadline.com/2014/03/despicable-me-2-2013-most-profitable-movie-universal/

DISPICABLE ME 2 as 2013′s most profitable film of 2013. Took out STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS in first round:

http://www.deadline.com/2014/03/fast-furious-6-star-trek-into-darkness-despicable-me-2-profit-most-profitable-movies-2013/

“The Bottom Line: Star Trek’s sequel cost $190 million, per our experts. How can that film live long and prosper when that happens, stacked against a film that grossed twice as much, at less than half the cost?

The Winner: Another first-round rout. The good news for Star Trek is, even without Abrams, Paramount and Skydance are formulating another sequel and continuing one of Hollywood’s most enduring franchises. In this matchup though, it’s no contest. Despicable Me 2 is pouring off $394.5 million in profit, by our estimates. By comparison, Star Trek generated $29.9 million. ” – “2013 Most Valuable Blockbuster – How The Minions Came To Rule Hollywood” By MIKE FLEMING JR | Friday March 28, 2014 @ 10:00am PDT, DEADLINE|HOLLYWOOD

522. Who cares - March 28, 2014

Frankly the people talking smack about MJ right now have always been the far, far more offensive bunch, the people stating MJ made “bizzare” claims are the ones I have seen making the most reality deficient statements. So far as the continuing accusations of sockpuppetry I would say that unless you are a Moderator and can check IP numbers that you should shut up and not assume that a post is from a puppet just because it agrees with someone you dislike, I am reading all these comments in the anti-MJ circle jerk here and if I wanted I could claim they are all from Cygnus because most of the posters in this group never post anything unless they are agreeing with Cygnus, but I won’t cause I am not a mod and I can’t prove it.

Oh and remember MJ and Red Dead both accused me, wrongly and with no trace of logic, of being a puppet for I am not Herbert so don’t even bother trying to say I am just a puppet for MJ because I dare to disagree with the “people” who say he was a puppeteer.

I know I said I would be back around in a week or so, but stupidity pisses me off.

523. crazydaystrom - March 28, 2014

519. Cygnus-X1

And, to be perfectly frank, I am surprised to see that Red Dead Ryan was not among the vanished.

Same here. I’m pleased RDR is real and actual IF he is (as opposed to a sock puppet).

It’s funny, I’d NEVER even heard of a ‘sock puppet’ before, at least this connotation of the term, until all the accusations of it on this site. In fact I was surprised that -
1) someone could even get away with doing it (naive of me, considering what people do get away with in this computer age)

And

2) anyone would even feel the need to do something like sock puppet.

This is an entertainment franchise website forum fercrissakes! Why the need to do that?!? (again, this old man can be naive but this didn’t strike me as a place to have to be on guard for deception of that type and to that degree).

It clicked for me when someone pointed out the possibility and when I thought about it it all then made sense. As I indicated unthread I learned as a youngster, the accuser is often (though not always) guilty of what he accuses others of. It’s sad. smh

524. Ahmed - March 28, 2014

@521. Who cares

With all due respect, you are wrong. But I do get where you coming from, you two shared same enthusiasm for STID & were the true defenders against all the “HATERS”.

See you in another week, bro :)

525. Phil - March 28, 2014

Went back and looked over the thread in question, and considering that the individuals MJ was responding to were pretty repulsive, I’d be surprised if he got banned for that. Looking at Matt’s comment it’s more conceivable that he was suspended for a period of time.

There’s a problem in the conspiracy theory – back before AP went MIA, AP was pretty vocal that sockpuppeting was an instant-ban offense, and MJ was an active poster during that time. He wasn’t banned then, and it’s unlikely he was sockpuppeting recently. If he was, then he deserved to be shown the door – he knew the rules.

526. B Kramer - March 28, 2014

521 emm…jey! (oh sorry I just sneezed), You must be sadomaschistic .

“Sorry about your friend, but as we say on earth c’est la vie.” -JTK

522 Crazy D: Amen.

519 Very articulate Cygnus as usual, but a word to the wise: don’t fall into the trap of giving that “person(s)” anymore attention at all. He got way more then he deserved and the resulting chaos on this board for years. Some of his alternates are still here. He’s dying to get you banned by bringing up his antics again.

LLAP

527. Cygnus-X1 - March 28, 2014

524. Phil – March 28, 2014

Well, you totally missed the meaning of it all, then.

MJ wasn’t “responding” to people. He instigated and made up the whole thing, just as he and his aliases did a regular basis.

And if you haven’t noticed that at least 7 other identities also disappeared at the exact same time as MJ, then you really haven’t been paying much attention to it all.

528. Red Dead Ryan - March 28, 2014

I just want to mention how interesting it is that people on this thread are now commenting about how “civil” this site has become minus MJ are now themselves derailing this article with their own less-than-respectful innuendo and mud-slinging.

Ironic, isn’t it?

And fascinating to see “B Kramer” show up to reinforce Cygnus. Really fascinating.

529. B Kramer - March 28, 2014

527 The Boy Who Cried Wolf : no one believed him anymore.

530. Cygnus-X1 - March 28, 2014

527. Red Dead Ryan – March 28, 2014

Yes, it is rather interesting. Interesting indeed.

I am sorry that you feel disrespected, though I don’t see why you should feel that way. Surely you can understand and sympathize with people making a sensible observation. I was just looking for some clarification as to how you are so confident that “MJ and co. will be back” and how it is that you know that his “co.” will follow where MJ goes? How do you know all that?

Sorry again that you feel disrespected and distracted from the topic at hand. I’m moving on to more inspiring topics now. No need to dwell on what has already been pointed out.

531. Ahmed - March 28, 2014

@527. Red Dead Ryan

You forget to demand AN APOLOGY from everyone here, I’m very disappointed in you!

532. Cygnus-X1 - March 28, 2014

530. Ahmed – March 28, 2014

I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t funnily apropos.

533. Ahmed - March 28, 2014

@532. Cygnus-X1

lol, RDR can be very annoying sometime but he always makes me smile when he says stuff like that, he is a funny guy :)

534. Ahmed - March 28, 2014

Back to the topic.

I must say that I’m pleased & impressed when I saw that Payne is giving screenwriting course to the women of his community. The guy must be really busy right now but still, he manages to take time to do that. I’m beginning to like him more now :)

J.D. Payne teaching Screenwriting Course at Utah Women in Film 2014, the pictures were taken by Emily Ann Roth

https://imgur.com/a/NnfB7

535. Keachick - March 28, 2014

Ahmed – you seem to working up to playing the ass card big time. This is the kind of card that had a certain writer who shall not be named throwing a big F bomb at you. Stop being… aggravating.

RDR is under no obligation to reveal to you anything or why he may or may not know something.

It is pure speculation that MJ (and others) have been banned. Only Matt Wright (or other of this site’s administration) can say – so to all of you:

CEASE AND DESIST! (as they say).

536. Marja - March 28, 2014

Awhile back, we were speculating that TrekMovie was about to go the way of the dodo, because at that point Matt Wright and Kayla I. had not yet taken up the work of overseeing the site. MJ had proposed beginning a new site, and I sent him an email asking to be included in notifications if he opened the site. Then Matt and Kayla began managing TrekMovie and discussions of an alternative website went away. But MJ still had my email address.

This is an alternate email address, and I haven’t opened it in a few days. I opened it today, and found this. MJ is checking out this site, I think that’s what led him to send the note.

Hi Marja,

I’ve noticed you and others posting about wondering where I have been. I must confess that Matt has kicked me off the site. I actually agree with his decision and respect it, as I am not happy myself with my recent behavior on the site. My personal goal is to get back to personal-IDIC, and not to get so obsessive on winning arguments, etc. I kind of gradually became a troll, and I am not proud of that. I believed my own hype after the Khan thing, and some of my actions then gradually spiraled out of control.

And I apologize to you, Matt and everyone for anybody who I may have trolled on at Trekmovie. And to those like RDR, Phil and others, I am really sorry that they will have to face the negative JJ stuff without me being around to support them in the future.

If you like. you can post my words here to others who are wondering what happened to me, I am fine with this.

Best Regards, MJ

So there you are, I hope this will end speculation on the part of anyone. Sad news, and perhaps a lesson here, folks?

537. B Kramer - March 28, 2014

Keachick not you too. cue Twilight Zone music. ah well figures.

538. Ahmed - March 28, 2014

@535. Keachick

“RDR is under no obligation to reveal to you anything or why he may or may not know something.”

Are you his lawyer ?

539. Keachick - March 28, 2014

Ahmed, B Kramer – Stop trolling. And no, Ahmed, it does not take a lawyer to work that out. Never seen the Twilight Zone – heard about it though. Don’t care either way whether I ever see it or not. What figures?

The only thing I can figure here is that two posters are playing the ass card by being aggravating and oh soooo duuummmmb!

Howzat?

540. Red Dead Ryan - March 28, 2014

Oh, I don’t feel disrespected at all. I was referring to your guys’ behaviour towards MJ.

Oh, and thanks Keachick! :-)

P.S.

I think most of us here (myself very much included) have acted like jerks towards each other at times. Maybe we ought to acknowledge that so we can move on from this?

541. Curious Cadet - March 28, 2014

@530. Ahmed,
“You forget to demand AN APOLOGY from everyone here”

LOL — I forgot about that … that’s right up there with “Case Closed!” and “Fact!” Hi-Larious.

@522. crazydaystrom,
“I’d NEVER even heard of a ‘sock puppet’ before, at least this connotation of the term, until all the accusations of it on this site. In fact I was surprised that -
1) someone could even get away with doing it”

At the risk of raising suspicious eyebrows, as I understand it, hiding or changing an IP address is a piece of cake, especially for someone who is tech savvy. There are proxy servers and software that can easily do that. So different e-mail addresses for each of your “personalities”, and assign a new IP address each time you log onto your ISP with a respective address. It takes a little time, but with multiple computers (desktop, laptop, iPad, phone, etc.) it’s fairly easy to set up. As I understand it, that’s what they do here, verify e-mail addresses and check IP addresses. And the site’s anti-spam software filters out suspicious IPs. However, I would imagine maintaining multiple sock puppet accounts would be tricky because you have to make sure you don’t confuse which one is tied to which address. As this is a ban-able offense, I’m thinking somebody got sloppy.

542. Marja - March 28, 2014

506 Rick, “I think the entire cast does a great job, but I’ve been less than pleased with how some of the characters have been written. Bones was nothing more than the comic relief in STID, and sulu and Chekov? They had about 10 lines total between the two of them. I won’t even get into the rest of the crew, but I’m really hoping things change for the better in the next one.”

Not sure, but I don’t recall Sulu and Chekov having a whole lot of lines in TOS or in any of the movies. There was the dreadful comic bit of them in STV TFF. There was Chekov in STII WOK. Hmmmmm … what other crucial bits were there. Oh yes, Captain Sulu in his ship in STVI?

Nothing else that stood out to me. In this AU, Sulu and Chekov are still secondary characters to the Big Four — which used to be the Big Three, but now has a female in their number, so yay! Big Four! Maybe they will get larger parts in the next movie, to compare with Scotty’s in STiD. IDK.

543. Marja - March 28, 2014

465 Cygnus, “I read recently that “Bless your heart” is usually intended as an insult in the South. I think it’s supposed to be condescension, as in talking down to someone who’s trying their best but just doesn’t have the wit or mental faculties to figure things out.”

Yeah, but it is also used in sympathy, e.g., “Mary Alice is havin’ such a hard time since her momma died; her brothers are all trying to lessen the amount of her inheritance, when she was the one who stood by her momma through the Alzheimers and all that, bless her heart.”

544. Keachick - March 28, 2014

#540 – Yeah – the AWESOME FOURSOME!

545. Marja - March 28, 2014

516 Rick, the idea of a comic subplot involving “McCoy’s Miracle Tribble” is fun. I don’t think they’d build a whole movie around it, but some hilarity could definitely ensue, and I think all the actors in the films have good comic chops.

546. Keachick - March 28, 2014

Oh Yes, especially Simon Pegg and Chris Pine (Neutron cream, anyone?). Definitely – Bring on the tribbles…

Besides, after what these guys have been through what with losing a whole planet to a maniac and then being betrayed and almost destroyed by another maniac, it is about time they went exploring and got to enjoy themselves meeting some of the more decent, kinder and trustworthy of folk who must also inhabit that giant thing called space. Menosia comes to mind. There may be a type of Caitian species on that planet as well – not sure…:)

547. Dean - March 28, 2014

@506 rick

Agreed rick. I’d like to see more exploration too. Don’t get me wrong I enjoy all the action, but I’d like to see them actually travel to other planets/galaxies and check things out as well.

And a Urban was the best casting choice they could have made I think, besides Quinto as Spock. I’m waiting for the Kirk, Spock, Bones team to actually start forming too as their relationship together evolves more. I think we’re gonna be seeing more of them in the next film, it seems to me that it’s one of the biggest thing fans keep asking for. And Bob has mentioned before he wanted to give more Bones. Those three actors play off each other so well, I’m looking forward to more.

Oh and Prime Spock showing up for a third time? Let’s not. Leonard Nimoy is an icon but I think the movie will do just fine without a third cameo.

548. Kamin - March 28, 2014

@499 Moauvian waoul

I was saddened and troubled by the experience you recounted of your time in SLC. I’m sorry you experienced unkindness there. That said, I wanted to follow-up on your comment:

“Do you know why there a black people according to Mormon faith? Supposedly they were a tribe of Mormons who sinned against God and were turned black as punishment.”

First of all, black people have been around for thousands of years, and the Mormon faith was only officially organized in 1830, so your claim doesn’t make a lot of sense. I assume you’re referencing an episode mentioned in the text of the Book of Mormon itself, which (without getting into debates about the text’s historicity) on its own terms purports to have taken place in the mid 6th century BCE. Now, these people were living about 2,500 years before the Civil Rights Act, so it’s important to recognize that they were making sense of their world using the tools / attitudes prevalent in their own cultural context.

That said, if you read the Book of Mormon and come away thinking that it promotes racism, you kind of missed the point. The entire book chronicles the millennia-long in-fighting between two peoples– partially caused by the very racial prejudice described in the episode you alluded to– which ultimately ended in a bloody genocide. The book is a cautionary tale against such inter-group hatred. Reading it and arguing it that it promotes racism would be like reading Moby Dick and arguing that it’s a propaganda piece for the whaling industry.

Apologies for getting so off-topic on a Trek forum, but for me, Star Trek is a wonderful force for bringing people of all backgrounds together over something we love; it saddened me to see someone, even innocently, presenting out-of-context, half-truths that only serve to spread contempt and divisiveness. There’s enough of that in the world at large– we don’t need it in Trek-Land too!

549. Picard, Jean-Luc - March 29, 2014

Until Star Trek returns to our TV screens, Star Trek will always be playing second fiddle to Star Wars.

CBS had their chance to go big with Trek in 2009 when they turned down JJ Abrams proposal of a multi-platformed franchise which included movies, TV shows, big scale merchandise roll out, video games and the like built upon the new crew on the new Enterprise.

That was their chance to take Star Trek into a whole new world but they opted out in favour of what we have now which has been one brilliant movie in four years and a shitty tie-in game.

My opinion… Either CBS gets their act together along with Paramount and works out a deal which would allow Bad Robot creative control over the franchise allowing for the profits to be split between the three, or they sell it to someone (ideally Bad Robot) who would actually make something of it rather than pandering to the die-hard fanboys.

I’m throughly looking forward to Star Trek 3 but if the studio’s cant work out a deal to ensure that the future of Trek is a prosperous one then Trek 3 will be just as financially average as Into Darkness was, no matter how awesome Into Darkness was.

The brand needs revitalising, and IMO the way to do that is to hit the ground running with the plan Abrams had for Trek in 2009.

550. Disinvited - March 29, 2014

#545. Marja – March 28, 2014

Or at least an animated short preceding the main feature? Animated STAR TREK won Trek its first Emmy. It would be a nice 50th anniversary treat.

551. Disinvited - March 29, 2014

#549. Picard, Jean-Luc – March 29, 2014

If you peruse the SLATE article I referenced around message #371 and the DEADLINE HOLLYWOOD one around #521. You would see that that is precisely the wrong move for CBS to take to maximize their Trek profits at this time.

Not that I ascribe any prescience or Trek business acumen to their actions to date – only pointing out that Trek fans are darn lucky the path it has gone down was not that which you advocate in light of the new information that Kickstarter provides to all the parties involved.

The Slate article made it clear to me that the rudderlessness of the old Paramount approach on Trek was they really didn’t have a clue. It didn’t wane because they ended up producing too many Treks at the same time. It waned because they didn’t know what they were doing and had resorted to throwing various bowls of spaghetti on the wall and hoping some would stick.

Besides, there’s no logic to what JJ claims given his stated approach to the hardcore fans.

First he states, that his Trek doesn’t need hardcore Trek fans and that he is NOT specifically targeting them in the Trek product he intends to produce. Then various Bad Robot spokespeople say there is nothing to fear for the oldguard from their “new” Trek because they’ll still have their old movies, episodes, merchandise, etc. that they can enjoy to their grave.

Then, JJ starts whining to CBS that his shinny new Trek can’t take the competition from all the hardcore merchandise CBS is allowing to reach market. He demands CBS pull all Trek that is not his Trek.

Well, I don’t know how Bad Robot expects me to still enjoy my old Trek if CBS is not allowed to market it to me in new formats. My Beta video tape player fails to proceed. HD DVD lost the format wars; eventually hardcore with Trek on that format will have to move on to the next thing.

I’m sorry but my SoCal located nose smells something rotten in Burbank when I’m told never fear I can still enjoy my old Trek and then it is asserted that unless all venues through which I can enjoy said old Trek are removed, the new Trek can’t succeed.

552. Captain Slow - March 29, 2014

@ 549 Picard, Jean-Luc

Has it ever been confirmed that J.J. wanted to do all of that? I know it’s never been denied which is suggestive but I don’t know if he’s interested enough in Star Trek to be willing to do so much with it.

@ 550 Disinvited

Yes! Unfortunately i don’t see any way for there to be a live-action series with this cast but an animated one would be ideal.

I do think though they made a mistake by killing Pike because he would have been a good lead character for a live-action series not set on the Enterprise.

553. crazydaystrom - March 29, 2014

522. Who cares
“Frankly the people talking smack about MJ right now have always been the far, far more offensive bunch, the people stating MJ made “bizzare” claims are the ones I have seen making the most reality deficient statements.”

Yeah Who Cares, I’ve been talking a fair amount of ‘smack’ here about MJ. It’s because he attacked me in a rather bizzare and fairly vicious manner for reasons I suspect I’ll never understand. That lead to aggravation and, now, venting and no small amount of schaudenfreude at his being “kicked off” this site. Probably not the most mature of actions and feelings on my part but, I think, at least somewhat understandable all things considered. But I feel confident I have not been “far, far more offensive”, if offensive at all, to him or anyone else here.

“So far as the continuing accusations of sockpuppetry I would say that unless you are a Moderator and can check IP numbers that you should shut up and not assume that a post is from a puppet just because it agrees with someone you dislike,…”

That is absolutely NOT the reason for my suspicions. It’s more, to be cliche, it quacked like a duck so most likely is one. I don’t have proof and wouldn’t bother to waste the time to find any even if I could.

As to the “anti-MJ circle jerk here”, as you put it, it will end sooner or later, probably sooner. I’m done with it as of this post.

I’m certainly not perfect (to state the obvious) but I am pretty much all about an IDIC-y sort of a pie-in-the-sky-Pollyanna-peace and love kind of coexistence. I believe we CAN get along, and SHOULD try to do just that. One big happy fanfleet, as it were. I think that sounds fantastic (though probably in every sense of that word). Some folks seem to prefer sowing DIScord and DISharmony…they love to DIS!

And I f MJ is not guilty of what I suspect him to be, I offer sincere apologies.

554. dmduncan - March 29, 2014

Hey! What happened to MJ, and what did Matt Wright’s cryptic remark to MJ on the Lolani thread (after which he seemed to vanish) mean?

Did Matt catch MJ sockpuppeting and get permabanned?

555. dmduncan - March 29, 2014

Religions are individual. If you mention religion in general terms as negative, you are an anti-religious bigot.

There’s an interesting interview video on YouTube with a guy who got badly burned in a plane crash, had a near-death experience, and survived.

He asked a being who had visited him and who he described as an angel what the correct religion was. The answer he got back?

The one that brings you closer to God.

556. Phil - March 29, 2014

@555. That sums it up right nicely. Thanks.

557. Curious Cadet - March 29, 2014

@554. dmduncan,
“Did Matt catch MJ sockpuppeting and get permabanned?”

While it is quite suspicious that there are almost a dozen personalities
who regular showed up and posted in clusters with MJ, all of whom also instantly vanished at the same time he did, one would think if he was perpetrating such an elaborate sockpuppet scheme for as long as he was on these forums, that he would easily be back posting under another name.

Then again, a brand new ID would take some time to establish before launching into the same sort of rhetoric, lest he be immediately recognized, to say nothing of several new IDs all supporting each other in chorus. And if you can’t play the same old “games” Matt cryptically mentioned, then what’s the point?

558. Ahmed - March 29, 2014

I was thinking at the beginning that the gang was just a bunch of STID fans who were following MJ but after the Bob incident last year, I begin to notice that all these people were posting in the same time & not once disagreeing with each other.

I don’t know if MJ was banned for sockpuppeting but it is a telling sign that none of that group posted again after that comment from Matt.

559. dmduncan - March 29, 2014

557. Curious Cadet – March 29, 2014

Every time I came back after an absence I’d find the thread in disarray over some new sockpuppeting claim and counterclaim. Ugh. Those are not good reasons to revisit this place.

Anywho.

Come on Hollywood people. Let’s get that next movie in the can before California gets canned by The Big One!

Do any of you guys who actually live out there prepare for such things with food and water storage?

560. Red Dead Ryan - March 29, 2014

Nice to see dmduncan back. At least we know he’s not a fabrication. :-)

I highly doubt MJ was sockpuppeting. K-7 and the others were posting here well before Anthony went AWOL. I would think that if MJ was sockpuppeting all this time, he would have been banned several years ago. Others were banished for sockpuppeting.

There is also the issue of multiple addresses. I would think if MJ were keeping multiple IPs, somewhere along the way he would have tripped up.

No, I think Matt banned him from that thread, but not the site, most likely for flaming or trolling.

561. Cygnus-X1 - March 29, 2014

557. Curious Cadet – March 29, 2014

While it is quite suspicious that there are almost a dozen personalities
who regular showed up and posted in clusters with MJ, all of whom also instantly vanished at the same time he did, one would think if he was perpetrating such an elaborate sockpuppet scheme for as long as he was on these forums, that he would easily be back posting under another name.

OK, I’m really not wanting to get bogged down in this, but unfortunately it appeals to my analytical nature, and now another person has brought it up, so this is the last thing I’ll say about it.

It is my opinion that what you mentioned previously, about having multiple IP addresses, is what MJ was doing. And that he is still posting here under at least one of the identities that I mentioned previously, if not others.

If you look at past threads, such as this one: http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/21/star-trek-has-called-me-and-im-going-to-serve-bob-orci-talks-trek-on-mission-log-podcast/

You can clearly see a pattern, especially from post 1018 to 1058: One identity introduces the idea of silencing the active discussion about STID, and then, one by one, the other identities all pile on with the exact, same demand and in the same attitude—passive/aggressive, starting out polite and then growing extremely insistent and demanding, until finally I relent and gave in to their (his) demand.

And if you look through other threads, you’ll see the same sort of behavior exhibited by these same identities. They would all arrive at the same, unusual conclusions as they mischaracterized and misrepresented what other posters would say in order to silence and/or run them off. And they all used similar phrasing and texting, too.

It is extremely hard for me to believe that 8 or more individuals would independently arrive at the same, weird conclusions (for example, when they all accused Dom of accusing them of making “death threats”) and then be so emphatic about such an unlikely, idiosyncratic notion. The identical behavior exhibited by all of them was just too idiosyncratic, and the way that they all selflessly supported and reaffirmed each other, never disagreeing with each other about ANYTHING, was just too extreme a display of loyalty and solidarity for so many people (outside of a religious cult or something).

Anyway, MJ and his aliases used to accuse me of posting under different names, and it never bothered me because the idea seemed ludicrous and silly (though, now, obviously, I understand why he would make that accusation). So, if Red Dead Ryan isn’t the same person as MJ, then I don’t see that what I am saying should be too upsetting to him. I am simply making a substantiated observation that is very hard (for myself and others) to ignore.

Given what I’ve noticed in the above posted thread and others that I’ve gone back to analyze, I’d be extremely surprised if it wasn’t the case that Red Dead Ryan is simply one of MJ’s aliases like the others that appear to be clearly on display in the above-posted thread—unless there was some surreal explanation for it all, and the other identities were somehow not “sockpuppets,” either. Because they all, including RDR, exhibited the same, exact characteristics, as you can see in the above-posted thread and others.

If Red Dead Ryan was the only one in “MJ and co.” who wasn’t a sockpuppet, then I’d imagine that he would feel like something of a fool for falling in with a group of 7 or more non-existent people; I sure would if it happened to me. Sorry if I’m wrong about this, but I don’t think that I am.

562. Cygnus-X1 - March 29, 2014

559. dmduncan – March 29, 2014

Every time I came back after an absence I’d find the thread in disarray over some new sockpuppeting claim and counterclaim. Ugh. Those are not good reasons to revisit this place.

I’ve been coming here since 2007 and I’ve never seen anything like this. Anyway, we were done talking about it until you brought it up again specifically asking about it.

563. Ahmed - March 29, 2014

Any Breaking News, news or anything about the movie ?

It is almost a year since the release of STID & no official press release of any kind. It is like 2009 all over again, right after ST2009 was released, there were lot of talks about working on the sequel right away & we all know how that story ended!

564. Phil - March 29, 2014

@559. Well, yes and no on my part. I have some bottled water, and the ability to purify what’s in the house. I always have canned goods on hand as well. And while this was more by accident then design, when my kids were younger and ‘had’ to go camping, I hung on to the gear after I lost interest. I don’t have the minimum recommended by the Red Cross, and nothing in the car.

I’d wager most people are unprepared, though, and just figure that the gov’t will ride to the rescue. ….just like Katrina. As long as there are stores to loot, everything will be just fine.

565. Ahmed - March 29, 2014

Was googling Chris Pine, looking for any recent interviews where he may have talked about ST 13 & this was on top of the search results !!

===================================

Chris Pine Boozing Hard Because of Career Blues?

CHRIS Pine has developed a drink problem over his flagging career, it has been claimed.

The actor — who was arrested on suspicion of drunken driving in New Zealand on March 1 — is apparently depressed that his last movie, Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit, bombed at the box office.

And Pine’s friends fear his drinking is starting to have a major effect on his life.

“It’s getting harder and hard to keep his lifestyle a secret,” a source revealed to American tabloid the National Enquirer.

“Hopefully, this DUI is the wake-up call he needed.”

http://www.showbizspy.com/article/269410/chris-pine-boozing-hard-because-of-career-blues.html

===================================
I think stuff like that is what made Pine avoid social networks

566. Cygnus-X1 - March 29, 2014

Any source citing The National Enquirer should be summarily dismissed as tabloid garbage.

Frankly, I don’t understand how what The National Enquirer has been doing regularly for decades has not been found by a court to be libelous and that organization shut down.

567. Keachick (Rose) - March 29, 2014

Having preparedness as individuals in terms of food and water storage etc can be problematical. Truly bad weather and earthquakes are unpredictable in nature. We have a three bedroom house and a separate double garage. So where should we store such items? In the garage? What if it is taken out by an earthquake and everything left unusable, if it has not disappeared in the gaping hole that earthquakes can produce? Then there is that grey liquefaction (stuff that Christchurch got a lot of) which can ooze out of the earth getting into everything, ruining everything, hard to walk through and harder to remove.

Keeping stocks in the house can be problematical for the same reason. I guess the best idea is to keep a little bit of what is necessary in both places. Areas for storage can also be a problem for some people.

What I do is to always keep my kitchen cupboards stocked with the basics. As soon as I run out of say, tins of baked beans or fruit (very good standbys in an emergency – can be eaten hot or cold), UHT milk which does not require refrigeration or clean water and which has a shelf-life of six months if left unopened, basic requirements for baking – flour, baking powder, sugar, salt, essences… these are not expensive and do not take up much space. As soon as batteries for TV/DVD remotes, torches, etc are depleted, useless, they get replaced by the next shopping day, which could that day or in three days’ time. So there is always an immediate replacement on hand and another in reserve, at the very least. I try to make a point of knowing what needs replacing and getting it replaced – pronto.

We have about 10 litres of fresh dew water sitting in the corner of the dining room. My husband uses that water for his sleep machine because he suffers from sleep apnea, but in an emergency, that water can be rationed as drinking water. Those bottles are replaced frequently and there is always a spare one.

I think that this is the best that anyone can do, other than hope for the best.

568. Phil - March 29, 2014

@563. Come on, man, they are referencing The National Enquirer. The same folks who continue to insist Kennedy faked his death, and Elvis is still alive. We live in the 24 hour news cycle, and there isn’t a celeb who has issues out there that TMZ doesn’t hound 24/7. If they don’t have anything on the notion that CP is drinking himself into an early grave, it’s probably because he isn’t.

569. Phil - March 29, 2014

@565. The gov’t always says to plan on being on your own for the first 48 hours after a disaster. If Katrina illustrated anything, it should be more like a week. The most important commodity will always be water – while it’s a good idea to have some stored (I have six gallons/27 liters), most folks don’t know that there is probably another 40 gallons or so available between toilet tanks and water heaters.

It actually sounds like you have a decent plan – asides from keeping a kit in the car, and some walking shoes that’s a reasonable set of provisions. My neighbor is a cop, so I’d expect him to be prepared, and I can think of only one other neighbor who has anything resembling provisions put away.

570. Disinvited - March 29, 2014

#559. dmduncan – March 29, 2014

I live in 50yo converted orange grove tract that for decades had an uncapped open well that had burbling running water at its bottom on a part of the tract that was still being used for agriculture. Eventually the last vestiges of farming in the area collapsed and for the longest time I kept wondering if it was going to take a child’s death for the city to cap that well? Couple of decades back they saw fit to so do before any deaths could occur. I’m probably the only one of the locals that still knows where and what it is. For all the decades it was open I could not only hear but look down an see the clear water. Never stopped flowing even through two of the strongest quakes in the area. I count it as an asset.

My father took me camping and fishing so I have some skills in that. He was an avid gardener and took me on tours of gardens in the area. He also liked to stop and get samples of various area fruit trees and plants for grafting into plants for edible and flowering things he desired, so I know where open edibles are that can be collected. Don’t have a root cellar but I know what one is and how to dig one to help unrefrigerated food last longer.

Got canned goods. Big jugs of water. Hand crank radio.

I know how to outhouse it but prefer not to dig one as it’d most likely foul the well water. Have a relation who lives within walking distance that has a septic tank so I expect to be a regular visitor for a spell.

My war-wearied Army Veteran father hated firearms, refused to own one, and passed this disdain on to me. I don’t own any either but neither am I ignorant of them. I wouldn’t consider myself proficient but I have discharged them and know what to expect if ever I judge that I must have recourse to one. My father and I, his son, descend from a line of males proficient in the use of firearms for the hunting of wild boar. Needless to say, that half of my blood relations and those that live nearby don’t cotton to my silly notions.

I doubt that I am organized enough to bug out if my abode were to collapse. Probably, would have to work out some scheme to risk entering it for supplies.

Was this the kind of thing you were looking to get a feel
for?

571. dmduncan - March 29, 2014

560. Cygnus-X1 – March 29, 2014

Sorry. I wasn’t part of any of those and have no idea how many times you guys rehashed it.

572. Curious Cadet - March 29, 2014

@567. Phil,
“If Katrina illustrated anything, it should be more like a week”

If Katrina illustrated anything, it’s don’t put your college drinking buddy with no credentials for running the thing in charge of the federal emergency management agency. Therefore, the amount of supplies you need is directly proportional the competency of the current FEMA director.

573. dmduncan - March 29, 2014

Hell, I just wondered if earthquakes tended to make Californians who get them more survival conscious. Probably not. I think that in some odd way they are probably looking forward to an opportunity that earthquakes bring to live again.

But hey, it was fun learning you’re unarmed and prepping to prep. ;-)

574. Keachick (Rose) - March 29, 2014

I probably need to have more water than we normally have in reserve. We do have some water purifier. Apparently even a good bleach will do – 1 drop per litre of water, though I can’t vouch for the taste, but it should not taste any worse than tap water (I am referring to Auckland, NZ tap water).

We normally carry water in the car and a First Aid kit, though the kit is old. Our dog, Shadow, the one with her own unique fartitude…:), always goes wherever we go in the car and has to remain in the car sometimes and she needs water, especially in the summer months. We have her water in a 2 litre icecream sitting on the floor of the back seat and, being the lady that she is also, there are no spillages.

We probably need to check the First Aid kits that are in the house and cars.
Thank you for reminding me, Phil.

The other item we do need to get is a small gas cooker – one with a couple of elements, in case the power is out for an extended period, so we can heat water and have hot food.

I try to allow for all possible contingencies, from being without both mains power and water, or being without one or the other, having both supply but being cut off from shops and other facilities for a time or whatever other variable a natural disaster may bring… I just hope that I have not forgotten anything utterly crucial.

575. Keachick (Rose) - March 29, 2014

Gosh, the mere thought of a firearm or a weapon of any sort was the furtherest thing from my mind….hmmm…until I read the above post here on a US internet site.

576. Phil - March 29, 2014

@570. Well, the rollout of the ACA certainly demonstrated that bureaucratic incompetence is no respecter of party affiliation. Lets not turn a friendly conversation about disaster preparedness into a pointless political debate, shall we?

@568. I would not be considered ‘pro gun’ by some people in society, but I do keep a small caliber rifle in the home. I was discussing food sources with my son in the event of a disaster, and he was horrified when I suggested there were enough squirrels and bunnies around to keep us in protein for a bit. Never been hunting, but I’ve cleaned a few fish, a squirrel can’t be that different now. Doubt we’d be cut off from civilization long enough to worry about planting some veggies….

577. dmduncan - March 29, 2014

I am pro gun. Pro lawnmowers, telescopes, flatware. I’m an all around pro tool dude.

578. Red Dead Ryan - March 29, 2014

I’m more of a pro duct tape and chewing gum guy myself.

Pro masking tape as well. Don’t even get me started on glue sticks! ;-)

579. Marja - March 30, 2014

572 Curious, LOL. “Brownie” did a “great job” thar, didn’t he.

As I live in Florida we have a “Hurricane Season” from 1 April – 30 November. I have a plastic tub fulla batteries, sterno, and a ‘ stove with 3 cans of butane, along with other camping supplies. I have neighbors with guns! They’re nice folks, though we are somewhat politically divided. But I don’t think they’ll shoot me if I should come asking for a cup of flour after a disaster. When tropical storms crop up in the Caribbean, big bottles of water begin cropping up in my house.

Everyone should remember a “best by” date is not the same as an “expiration” date. It may not taste great after the best by date, but it’ll still be edible before the expiry date. Canned goods don’t seem to have either date, at least the ones I have. Come next month, I’ll be stocking up on canned goods again [meh]. Come November, I’ll donate things to the Food Pantries; I don’t have room for them all … and so it goes.

I can’t say I have a complete bug-out kit in my car, but I could probably pull something together in 30 minutes or so. Since we usually have at least 18 hours’ warning before hurricane storm surge/landfall, I’m not complacent exactly, but I’m a little more relaxed than I was when I lived in California. Though in California I was rather fatalistic … which could have proved fatal ….

I need to get one of those wind-up radios.

574 Rose, There is probably a great NZ website you can check for a complete list of recommended Disaster Preparedness gear.

And Rose, Don’t worry, some of the tabloids in the US would be sued in the UK for libel. Sadly the US has no restrictions on “free speech” when it comes to anyone in public life, including actors and celebrities. [I don't think it was particularly useful to know that President Clinton had a series of affairs and misbehaved in the Oval Office; really, keep it zipped, but did I need to know about it? The media's obsession with it was a great way to keep citizens from attending to real news.]

All the same, some celebrities subjected to lying gossip have brought successful lawsuits. I think the article got a ton of “hits” because it’s bad news about a celebrity, and ‘who doesn’t like that!’ [I don't, for one, but there is no accounting for the taste of Americans.]

576 Phil, I’m never shy about political debates and don’t consider them pointless as long as they’re done in a spirit of debate [without nastiness]. But I do not remember President Obama congratulating Secretary Sibelius on what a “great job” she did rolling out the ACA, which was an unmitigated embarrassment. I believe he apologized to the citizens for it, in fact. Not that that would be any great help to the people affected, but at least it shows some respect for the hurt or inconvenience caused to them.

580. Disinvited - March 30, 2014

#577. dmduncan – March 29, 2014

My father taught me to be armed with my wits. However it should probably be noted that I feel our anti-guns in the home stance was probably fueled in both he and I because we were the eldest of 6 offspring and well aware that the odds of a lock not withstanding the assault of that much curiosity. I had a brother who at the age between 3 and 4 could and would disassemble anything down unto its individual components. Drove my Dad nuts as, of course, the tot couldn’t put it back together again. My Dad was mechanically minded so my brother rarely did much damage as my Dad could reassemble something useful but he found it darn irritating not to be able to use something on demand.

Also his father, my grandfather, was an alcoholic unto his death for as long as either of us knew him. As you can surmise, guns and alcohol is not quite a formula for personal family safety.

So you might say we were not so much anti-gun as pro-armory far from inquisitive young hands and boozing older ones.

#579. Marja – March 30, 2014

As you can possibly surmise from my time in the South, I survived my fair share of hurricanes. One thing I recall, there was always plenty of water and as long as you knew how to distill it – moonshining being a common activity in the local hills as well as common family knowledge via my aforementioned grandparent – we never feared for lack of potable liquid.

Plenty of fuel in available firewood in my day there. Here in SoCal they’ve instituted no burn bad air days. I figure if an earthquake gets that bad, I’ll just start a campfire and Gov. Brown, himself, will come with the National Guard to arrest me. I’ll be arrested but I’ll be saved. *LOL*

581. Cygnus-X1 - March 30, 2014

579. Marja – March 30, 2014

I can vouch for the non-perishableness of canned goods.

Went backpacking in the Grand Canyon years ago and found a cache of canned goods by the trail that some previous hiker had left behind for anyone who needed them. The cans were totally rusted, though their labels could still be read. As it was my first cross-country hike and I’d run out of food, I ate two of them right out of the can and was totally fine. They tasted fine, too. I think that as long as there’s no bulging out of the can, a sign of bacterial growth, they should be safe to eat. Obviously if you open the can and it smells and/or looks horrid, you’re not going to want to eat it, either.

582. Tom - March 30, 2014

I know many of us felt that the Nimoy cameo was useless in STID. However I really hope that does not deter the team from having Shatner and Nimoy involved in the 50th anniversary in some way. Of course they would have to be ready willing and able. I had proposed for Bob and team to do a Marvelesque end credit scene.Also if the do a Anniversay special they could include them in that way instead. Have them shoot a “last scene” and include it in the special. Having Nimoy was an important part of Trek 09 not so much so for STID, but to have a 50th anniversary and not to include them in even a small way I think would be a shame

583. Disinvited - March 30, 2014

#582. Tom – March 30, 2014

That only holds if altSpock is supposedly emotionally compromised by Khan’s “shocking” unanticipated actions. I take the slightly different approach that altSpock is keeping his dead parent “alive” by leaning more towards his human side than Prime Spock felt the need. He’d probably deny it to himself and others, possibly only admitting to honoring her in some small way. Nevertheless, I believe the point of Nimoy’s scenes is to show that altSpock has learned from his friend, Kirk, to “adapt the odds” so as to make it possible to win in the face of a deck stacked overwhelmingly against you.

It also served as a way to signal to fans of the 2009 film and Trek in general that New Vulcan had been located, and settled successfully with working phone service.

584. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@583. Disinvited

“It also served as a way to signal to fans of the 2009 film and Trek in general that New Vulcan had been located, and settled successfully with working phone service.”

LOL, true. The Skype session with the living Goole aka Spock, was the high point of STID :)

585. crazydaystrom - March 30, 2014

579. Marja

“As I live in Florida we have a “Hurricane Season” from 1 April – 30 November.”

Marja,I live in coastal South Carolina, Charleston. Hurricane Season is a concern for us here too. We don’t get hit as often you guys do down there but it happens, most notably Hurricane Hugo back in ’89 which hit us ‘bullseye’ when it landfell. That was something I’ll never forget!

And believe it or not we have the possibilty of an earthquake to worry about here as well. The largest and most active fault east of the Mississippi, the Woodstock Fault, is only about twenty miles inland from here. We have minor tremors and quakes all the time and we’re overdue for a ‘big one’ which experts say is an inevitability. The last big one occurred back in the late 1800′s and leveled the city. It could be felt as far away as Chicago!

So hurricanes, earthquakes, flooding….no lions or tigers but, yes, bears in the forests near here, oh my! All that and texting drivers to boot! Still a great and beautiful place to live.

I do have emergency water, canned goods and my camping equipment. Lots of batteries and some solar chargers too. Though my main emergency plan is to evacuate if a hurricane’s headed this way. Gotta survive at least thru 2016 :-)

586. crazydaystrom - March 30, 2014

578. Red Dead Ryan

LOL! Big fan of duct tape myself! 8th wonder of the modern world, we used to say. Haha

And Marja-
“…there is no accounting for the taste of Americans.”

Americans taste fine. Particularly served with fava beans and a nice chianti. *rimshot!*

587. Tom - March 30, 2014

#583 Disinvited

I liked the Nimoy scene . I just don’t want some of the negativity towards it stop them from having Nimoy and / or Shatner involved in some way for the 50th Anniversary

588. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

579. Marja – March 30, 2014

576 Phil, I’m never shy about political debates and don’t consider them pointless as long as they’re done in a spirit of debate [without nastiness]. But I do not remember President Obama congratulating Secretary Sibelius on what a “great job” she did rolling out the ACA, which was an unmitigated embarrassment. I believe he apologized to the citizens for it, in fact. Not that that would be any great help to the people affected, but at least it shows some respect for the hurt or inconvenience caused to them.

***

That kind of apologism is why things stay the same in American politics.

Barack Obama is a weird mashup of Jimmy Carter and Richard Nixon, and a liar who is emboldened to lie by a media which he owns, and a population who is willing to excuse whatever he does through the rationalization that the alternatives would be worse.

589. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

Well it’s good to see quite a few of you do think about your own welfare should disaster strike! I think most people are planning to be rescued in a worst case scenario. Even if you do get rescued in a few days or a week, don’t underestimate how much suffering you can endure in that short time.

And duct tape is essential!

590. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@588. dmduncan

“Barack Obama is a weird mashup of Jimmy Carter and Richard Nixon, and a liar who is emboldened to lie by a media which he owns”

Guess that you watch too much Fox News & Hannity !!

Obama is not perfect in anyway or shape but he is not working in a vacuum. The GOP sole mission is not creating jobs or providing health care to the American people. Their mission is to obstruct anything & everything Obama do, just to humiliate him.

The GOP is good at obstructing, doing their best to limit voting for minority. They voted 50 times to repeal ACA & not once for gun control, even after kids were massacred.

New G.O.P. Bid to Limit Voting in Swing States
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/30/us/new-gop-bid-to-limit-voting-in-swing-states.html

Steve King wants ‘better obstructionists’
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/steve-king-obamacare-104077.html

Lawmakers pass more blame than bills in do-nothing Congress
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/politics/do-nothing-congress/

The GOP of shutdowns, obstructionism and capitulation to the far right is back
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/09/the-far-right-gop-is-back

591. crazydaystrom - March 30, 2014

587. Tom

On one hand I found the Spock Prime cameo to be incredibly gratuitous. But on the other hand for the 50th a Shatner/Nimoy appearance would be ok for me and apropos of the anniversary year. I like your idea of a Marvel-type after credits scene.

But I think more than any movie appearance of any of the old cast I’d like a two or three hour television special with as many cast members from ALL the series there to honor Trek’s beginnings. I don’t know what Paramount and CBS have in mind but I pray they don’t flub this. Star Trek’s 50th won’t be the most important thing in the world but it DESERVES to be recognized and truly honored.

592. Tom - March 30, 2014

591 crazydaystrom

I also hope they don’t flub this and a special that you described would be great. I would welcome guests from all the series. I think it would be so cool to see a scene with Shatner and Nimoy 50 years later!

593. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@591. crazydaystrom

“But I think more than any movie appearance of any of the old cast I’d like a two or three hour television special with as many cast members from ALL the series there to honor Trek’s beginnings.”

That is a great idea, I would love to watch a TV movie/miniseries that incorporates various elements from most or all of the TV series. Hopefully someone at Paramount/CBS will think BIG & EPIC when they plan for the 50th anniversary.

594. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

590. Ahmed – March 30, 2014

Think I’m that easy, do you? Maybe even which “side” I’m on?

It could be that I pay attention. Maybe that’s why I was able to call his election as president when the pundits were all sure Hillary would be the democratic nominee, and why I accurately predicted his continuation of so many Bush policies at the same time, despite all his fine sounding talk to the contrary.

You think acknowledging a fault here and there makes you objective? It’s a masquerade, my friend. That kind of thinking enables every foul thing that happens in politics and will happen in politics.

Link posting and GOP hatefesting is a symptom of denial.

Obama’s supporters–if not already there–are dangerously close to being members of a political cult.

595. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@594. dmduncan

“Link posting and GOP hatefesting is a symptom of denial.”

For the last five years, the GOP opposed & still do the ACA, did they come up with an alternative health care plan ? Nope

Show me something that the GOP did for the better of the country, anything, beside shutting down the government or making it hard on people to vote ?

596. Keachick (Rose) - March 30, 2014

“It also served as a way to signal to fans of the 2009 film and Trek in general that New Vulcan had been located, and settled successfully with working phone service.”

True – and no doubt there is someone there to “mind the store” as well…
ref. a quote from Kirk from a TOS episode – it has amused me for the last 40 odd years…:)

597. Phil - March 30, 2014

@588. Oh, I’m not one to shy away from a good debate, either. Disaster preparedness, on the part of the individual, should not be a donkey vs. elephant sideshow.

You actually have a decent description of Obama there. While I’d admit acknowledging Hillary didn’t have a lock on the nomination, I’d assumed that at some point that the media would recognize he was an empty suit. Obama had a couple of Rick Perry moments, but the media just glossed them over. By the way, you for that Carter/Nixon mashup, you forgot to mention that Obama had Reagans tailor, and is apparently well supplied with Teflon suits….

598. Keachick (Rose) - March 30, 2014

I have googled several definitions for ACA. One is the American Association of Chartered Accountants…

What does ACA stand for in the context of this discussion?

599. Keachick (Rose) - March 30, 2014

I have found tapes of various sorts in the house, including duct tape…

600. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@ 598. Keachick (Rose) – March 30, 2014

“What does ACA stand for in the context of this discussion?”

The Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare

601. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@597. Phil

” I’d assumed that at some point that the media would recognize he was an empty suit. ”

And Bush was the smartest president that the United States ever seen, right ?

602. crazydaystrom - March 30, 2014

593. Ahmed

“That is a great idea, I would love to watch a TV movie/miniseries that incorporates various elements from most or all of the TV series. Hopefully someone at Paramount/CBS will think BIG & EPIC when they plan for the 50th anniversary.”

I was thinking more of a documentary sort of thing, Ahmed, similar to Captain’s Roundtable, panel discussions or an interview type show with movie and series highlights. Something like that. I really don’t see a TV movie or miniseries of that scale happenning, as great as that might be. Too unwieldy and logistically difficult to pull off. But CBS could and would do it I would be one giddy Trekkie for sure! :-)

603. crazydaystrom - March 30, 2014

*IF* CBS would or could

604. Captain Slow - March 30, 2014

The Prime Spock scene wasn’t essential but it was nothing like the complete waste of the character that was Unification.

605. Keachick (Rose) - March 30, 2014

#579 – “The media’s obsession with it was a great way to keep citizens from attending to real news.”

Yes, yes. After that ridiculous and salacious (there goes that peeping tom mentality again) Clinton/Lewinsky debacle, it actually turned out that important piece of legislation or event was happening that the US Government of the day did not want the ordinary citizen to get wind of. I can’t remember what it was exactly or whether there were any serious repercussions (short or long term), but now anytime I read about a person in office being found to have some illicit liaison with prostitute or other, I immediately think, “OK, what is being covered up that is of real significance?”

I think we all should be getting wise to this ploy by now.

606. Phil - March 30, 2014

@601. And why would you assume that?

607. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@ 606. Phil – March 30, 2014

“@601. And why would you assume that?”

Maybe because like you I watch too much Hannity! After all according to him, Bush was tough with Putin & outsmart him, unlike Obama, the weak empty suit Prez !

btw If the GOP is so smart, how come 9 of the 10 poorest states are Red States ?

10. Oklahoma
9. South Carolina
8. New Mexico
7. Louisiana
6. Tennessee
5. Alabama
4. Kentucky
3. Arkansas
2. West Virginia
1. Mississippi

http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/09/21/americas-poorest-states/

608. Phil - March 30, 2014

@607. Well, considering that I’ve never had much to say about the Bush presidency, and when discussing any president I find that comparison shopping is generally a waste of time. Generally, presidents are transitional or transformational. In my lifetime, there has been only one transformational president, which was Reagan. Clinton should be on the list, but wasted a lot of his potential, and I was born about four months after Kennedy died. So, with everyone else being transitional, the only real debate was how did they manage not to screw things up any worse then they did?

Oh, and I wouldn’t be so quick to declare one party stupid at the expense of the other – the top ten list of states dealing with fiscal mismanagement lit littered with blue states. As I stated earlier, bureaucratic incompetence is no respecter of party lines. Neither is corruption, if you have been watching the headlines coming out of Sacramento…

609. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@608. Phil

The Democrats are not as dumb as the GOP for sure but they do have their own problems. No one is perfect in DC, it is a matter of degree.

Speaking of American presidents, everyone should watch “My Fellow Americans”, the Jack Lemmon & James Garner movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8NNXi4-yxQ

When I get tired of politics, I watch that movie to get a good laugh.

610. Phil - March 30, 2014

@609. Right now, the GOP’s wounds are self inflicted in so much that there is a tremendous void in leadership. Capable conservatives such as Condoleezza Rice are content to sit on the sidelines while the rodeo clowns fall all over themselves. No one with an ounce of intelligence considers Perry or Bachmann or even Christy a leader. Problem is, the Democrats wounds are a result of institutionalized incompetence. Anyone with firing synapses understands that the monumental bungling of the ACA wasn’t an aberration, but business as usual for the donkeys. The nation looks at that great laboratory of democratic governance, California, where for all practical purposes the GOP doesn’t exist, and sees that it’s impossible to accomplish anything here anymore with democratic leadership. Go ahead, say it with a straight face that Joe Biden would be an excellent president.

I’d have no issue with Hillary in the WH. I could probably hold my nose and vote for Bloomberg, if he ran. Rice is a shoo-in, and clearly the GOP had the wrong Mormon on the ballot last time around, when Huntsman was clearly the better choice…it’s a shame that the next election is shaping up to look a lot like the last one.

611. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

595. Ahmed – March 30, 2014

Show me something that the GOP did for the better of the country, anything, beside shutting down the government or making it hard on people to vote ?

***

I don’t have an appetite for red herring just now.

612. Cygnus-X1 - March 30, 2014

610. Phil – March 30, 2014

Capable conservatives such as Condoleezza Rice are content to sit on the sidelines while the rodeo clowns fall all over themselves.

Are you referring to the same Condoleeza Rice who, after stonewalling for the majority of her 9/11 Commission testimony, finally revealed that as National Security Adviser for GW Bush, she received an intelligence memo prior to 9/11/01 entitled, “Bin Laden determined to strike in the US,” and did absolutely nothing in particular about it?

Problem is, the Democrats wounds are a result of institutionalized incompetence. Anyone with firing synapses understands that the monumental bungling of the ACA wasn’t an aberration, but business as usual for the donkeys.

What “monumental bungling?” Are you referring to the problems with the website that lasted all of a month and a half? Are you aware that Medicare had more technical problems than the ACA in the years after it was implemented in 1965? What you’re pointing out is just how effective the GOP/right-wing is at re-writing history and promulgating misleading or downright false information. The problem with the Dems isn’t incompetence. The problem with the Dems has long been and continues to be lack of strong leadership. Obama, for all of his attributes, has not been a strong enough leader, either of his party or of the nation. He hasn’t adequately nor effective marshaled his fellow Dem troops against the relentless Republican onslaught that began in 2009, and he hasn’t been as publicly active at supporting his own policies as has been needed during his presidency.

The nation looks at that great laboratory of democratic governance, California, where for all practical purposes the GOP doesn’t exist, and sees that it’s impossible to accomplish anything here anymore with democratic leadership.

According to the articles that I’ve regularly been reading this year, Jerry Brown has totally turned CA’s economy around and accomplished a great deal. So, no idea what you’re referring to.

Go ahead, say it with a straight face that Joe Biden would be an excellent president. I’d have no issue with Hillary in the WH. I could probably hold my nose and vote for Bloomberg, if he ran. Rice is a shoo-in, and clearly the GOP had the wrong Mormon on the ballot last time around, when Huntsman was clearly the better choice…it’s a shame that the next election is shaping up to look a lot like the last one.

Here I partly agree with you. Biden, for all his experience and abilities as a politician—and these are substantial and impressive—does not convey the seriousness and gravitas necessary for an American President. He’s just too prone to bumbling his words, for starters. Though, he’d make a better president than any Republican simply because he wouldn’t be beholden to the GOP’s worst yet most controlling element, i.e. the Tea Party.

I totally agree with you about Huntsman, but he was just very much the wrong guy at the wrong time for a GOP which has become extremely and irrationally right-wing. But, you’re way off on Rice.

613. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@610. Phil

I’m a little worried that the Democrats have only one candidate, what will they do if Hillary didn’t run ? Biden is out of the question, no one will take him seriously.

As for the GOP, it looks like we will see familiar faces again in 2016 with the addition of few wacko birds like Cruz. Hopefully Jon Huntsman will runs again, he was probably the only sane Republican in 2012.

@611. dmduncan

“I don’t have an appetite for red herring just now.”

Right!!

614. Basement Blogger - March 30, 2014

@ 520, 561

Cygnus

I’m shocked… shocked that you, Cygnus make allegations without evidence. You’re not a time traveler from the Inquisition, are you? Maybe you were giving advice to Sen.Joe McCarthy in the past?

First let me get this out of the way. and satisfy your curiosity. I am not a Communist. Sorry. I am not MJ. My real name is Bernie Wong. My friends use my real name on this blog at times. You can look at my blog and see where I live. Yes, I have a self deprecating pen name but it’s not there for me to spew out hatred anonymously. You know the real person who makes the real opinion is me.

Second, Red Dead Ryan is not MJ. Wow, to even imply this is absurd. You claim to have been here since 2007, how little you have observed or maybe read. MJ is from Southern California. RDR lives in Canada, I believe he lives in Vancouver. I have seen them fight. I have bitterly fought with both before. So unless you want to accuse me of being schizophrenic, it makes no sense to allege that we are MJ.

Now unlike you and your feeling about STID, I can see some of your theories. I once questioned K-7 as to why he seems to appear when MJ is here. He wrote that he and MJ were friends and they email each other. I asked hem if he and MJ disagreed on anything. K-7 likes Shatner and MJ does not or not the recent Shatner. But you need to realize that K-7 followed MJ when he left before. So it’s no leap of logic that K-7 might follow MJ. Is K-7 really MJ? Don’t know without proof. Since MJ’ was here a long time and so was K-7, Anthony Pascale would have caught it by now.

I find it hilarious that you put all your critics in the “they are MJ” or “they’re foolish followers.” Hey maybe we’re all Bob Orci. Do you also keep an “enemies list?”

However, here’s the “case closed” moment. According to Marja, MJ emailed her. MJ says he was banned for trolling. @ 536. I will miss MJ. He and f fought like dogs and cats. But he also fought posters who manufactured facts out of the air. Regardless, MJ says he was not banned for sock puppeting. It was for trolling. Again, I could be wrong and maybe Matt can correct this, maybe it was for multiple reasons but MJ says it was for trolling.

Why don’t we get back to Star Trek 3 okay? The news is that Paramount accepted the writers’ pitch. The first draft of the screenplay is due in May. See video posted at 331.

615. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@614. Basement Blogger

“However, here’s the “case closed” moment. According to Marja, MJ emailed her. MJ says he was banned for trolling. @ 536.”

I only noticed that comment now, thanks for pointing that out. It does shed more lights on that issue. I never thought that RDR & MJ were the same person since I know that RDR lives in Canada like me. But gotta say that I’m not sure about the rest of the group.

“Why don’t we get back to Star Trek 3 okay? The news is that Paramount accepted the writers’ pitch. The first draft of the screenplay is due in May. See video posted at 331.”

Although Payne mentioned that in the video but Bob didn’t confirm it yet & we are still waiting for any word from Paramount.

Summer 2016 is filling out with movies every week & yet nothing about ST 13, maybe they are planning for Fall 2016 release!

616. Frank - March 30, 2014

I have no faith in this team including Roberto. Sorry but the last film was a total garbage. A very bad Star Trek TWOK wanna be. To be told by Simon and Roberto various “nasty things” I am not interested in their poor Trek.

It is time to go BACK to the original time line and move forward.

617. Red Dead Ryan - March 30, 2014

Well, I think its a red herring arguing about which party (Democrat, Republican) is better for America. In my opinion, neither party has acted responsibly. Both are in it for their own interests, and both represent the corporate elite. Their policies may differ on a few fronts, but both tend to shut out the other when it comes to debating policy.

As for Obama, he’s been exposed as a liar and a fraud. Bush Jr. is still worse, but not by a lot. Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Bush Jr., Obama are the worst presidents so far.

I certainly would not expect Hillary Clinton to be any better than Obama. It’s more likely she’d continue (and even expand) Obama’s controversial policies such as drone strikes and spying.

And up here in Canada, we’re starting to see that same type of deceit and bullying creep into our politics. Prime Minister Stephen Harper has fired/silenced many scientists who question his plans to expand tar sands oil drilling and shipping. The PM also is changing the rules surrounding elections to exclude certain people (primarily from indigenous) from being allowed to vote. There was also the robocall scandal that sent thousands of voters (non-Conservative) to non-existent polling stations. Not to mention his disregard for First Nations people, many of whom are being thrown into prison for no reason.

He’s also given the green light for resource companies to ruin the environment in Canada, and to stripmine poor South American countries. Oil companies like TransCanada and Enbridge are immune from prosecution should a big big spill occur on the west coast. Not to mention he’s made it legal for companies to hire cheap foreign workers to replace Canadians.

Unfortunately, there really isn’t a viable alternative. The Liberal party isn’t really a whole lot different, and its leader, Justin Trudeau, is acting more like a comedian on a nightclub tour. The NDP are fading away.

618. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

MJ just came through to me while I was on my Ouija board. He says he’s in sockpuppet rehab and apologizes for all the trouble he caused, and that he’s working hard to integrate all his separate online personas into one.

He says his wife is standing by him through these challenging times.

619. Ahmed - March 30, 2014

@616. dmduncan

lol, any chance that you contact Bob through your Ouija board to find out info about ST 13 ? :)

620. B Kramer - March 30, 2014

616 thanks for the update dmd ;^)

for the mj-’klan’:

http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Pathological-Liar

621. Red Dead Ryan - March 30, 2014

I hear CNN will be spending the next month analyzing MJ’s sudden disappearance.

They’ll be having their “internet security” analysts on hours at a time, going over the same bits of nothing hoping to find something. And when they do find something related to MJ’s disappearance, they will then find out that it was a false lead, apologize, and start the whole process over.

You’ll be seeing a lot of this in the coming weeks:

“BREAKING NEWS: An internet identity sharing similar syntax and typos to that of the missing MJ have been discovered on some obsolete Star Trek news website. Reuters reports possible lead was discovered two days ago. Currently being analyzed by some dude in someone’s basement in some city in some state.”

622. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

615. Red Dead Ryan – March 30, 2014

There is no political system that cannot be outsmarted by bad people, and our systems have been corrupted.

But there’s still plenty of people willing to invest blind faith in these systems because they have nothing else to believe in. If THIS doesn’t work, they’re screwed. There’ is nothing else there, they think, except Hobbesian chaos.

623. dmduncan - March 30, 2014

617. Ahmed – March 30, 2014

Alas, no luck. Bob booted me out of his Ouija network.

624. Red Dead Ryan - March 30, 2014

#619. dmduncan

Yeah, we’re constantly being bamboozled and yet, people continue to re-elect the same politicians who’ve screwed us over countless times before.

I keep hearing the “its your duty to vote”, “the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know”, “you have no right to criticize if you don’t vote”, etc.

I’ve always felt my non-vote was a vote. I voted not to vote for anyone because I felt no one deserved my vote. I still believe that.

I think we need a “none of the above” option on our ballots. And make it mean something. If “none of the above” gets more votes than any of the other candidates, that seat up for grabs stays empty. It might just work to keep the candidates on the straight and narrow.

But, then again, I think most people think charisma = being a good leader. Some of the worst people in history showed great charisma and charm.

“None of the above” obviously isn’t charismatic, so it probably wouldn’t stand a chance.

625. Cygnus-X1 - March 30, 2014

Say Goodbye to Blu-Ray!

Sony And Panasonic Release 1TB Optical Discs:

http://wonderfulengineering.com/goodbye-to-blu-ray-sony-and-panasonic-release-1tb-optical-discs/

626. Red Dead Ryan - March 30, 2014

And of course, the politicians wouldn’t allow for “none of the above” to be on the ballots anyway. It would be too great a threat to their place in power.

The next Canadian elections are worrying a lot of pundits who fear its being rigged. The watchdogs are being silenced by the Conservative bullies.

If its going to be rigged, how can anyone be criticized for not voting?

The only good news in all of this is voter turnout is decreasing, so hopefully one day something might change. Maybe.

627. Red Dead Ryan - March 30, 2014

http://thebea.st/1hMN2eJ

A convicted killer and registered sex offender is running for governor of California.

628. Marja - March 31, 2014

One of the main advantages Republicans and their Far Right-wing brethren enjoy is that of a Unified Message. They reinforce each other with recommended talking points. They hammer these talking points into any discussion on interview programs. They stay on point. They have a major propaganda network, FOX, founded by conservative Roger Ailes, on which true journalism is seldom practiced [but true journalism is seldom practiced in any major venue; I can't even trust NPR anymore, they're now an "echo chamber" too]. And before you, my loyal opponents, bring up MSNBC, yes, it’s a liberal mouthpiece, but does not enjoy the same wide distribution on cable networks as FOX does.

They are “disciplined” per the Gingrich/Hastert Republican House of Representatives.

In the 1990s the Republican House introduced many changes to the rules under which they conduct the nation’s business. Among these changes was the rule that allows appointment of Committee Chairs based on “their loyalty to the Party.” [hmmm.] Also Hastert’s “Majority of the Majority” ‘rule’ said, don’t bother trying to introduce a bill on the floor if the majority of the majority won’t vote for it. [Well, there goes any true bipartisanship.]

The point is, their message is more unified because of their agenda and their verbal adherence to that agenda and their unwillingness to discuss things outside their talking points.

The Democrats have always had a big tent. A really, really big tent, under which are welcome so many diverse causes as to be somewhat counter to a standard Unified Message. One month they’re talking about legislative limitations on gun ownership [crazy, huh, wanting to keep civilians from owning AR-15s and similar high-power automatic weapons?], then, gay marriage, then, something like the Lily Ledbetter equal pay act, then, pro-choice legislation. In short, we can’t adhere to an agenda because our agenda is always changing due to our inclusiveness.

Now, some accuse Obama of being an “empty suit” and an ineffective leader. They would be correct IF: Obama had gotten as little done under a majority Democratic House and Senate as he has with the significant obstructionism of the opposing party. I guarantee that if the Democrats had won the majorities of the House and Senate, we would have something very close to a Single-Payer Health plan today, Immigration Reform would have happened by now, some manner of legislating guns so crazies can’t get their hands on battle weaponry, and so on. The fact that he has been stymied at EVERY turn by the obstructionists makes me sneer everytime someone calls him an ineffective president.

Yes, there are things about Obama that make me nervous, such as his not dismantling the Patriot Act, which is a frightening bill to civil libertarians, such as continuing and refining the deployment of drones, and more.

Yes, he is better than the alternative, under whom I would have lost most of my retirement and ability to live. I’m still watching Paul Ryan and his ilk. I’m really not sure I care to remain living in any United States they are running.

629. Keachick (Rose) - March 31, 2014

#624 – This guy looks and sounds like a total scumbag.

Who are these people who want to carry around guns and knives? This is real sicko stuff.

630. Marja - March 31, 2014

608 Phil, “Clinton should be on the list, but wasted a lot of his potential”

What do you mean? He and Gore balanced the budget of the United States, and in about two years, W. Bush succeeded in blowing that all to the hot place.

Or are you referring perhaps to things he could have got done if Kenneth Starr weren’t so intent on learning the dimensions and description of the Clinton peen from Ms Lewinsky? And wasting some $40M to $70M total [estimates vary] of taxpayer money in this witch hunt after failing to find the suspected misdeeds in the Whitewater deal, which he was initially assigned to investigate?

631. Marja - March 31, 2014

If I could, I would vote a straight Green ticket, but b/c Greens are not beholden to the oligarchs, I doubt I’ll ever see the day. I vote Democratic [least of evils], but am pretty far left of them. Today’s Democrats resemble the Republicans of the 1960s and 70s. Moderate. Very.

RDR, you are probably right, but I don’t see it doing citizens a lot of good. Legislation needs to happen, without legislation we’d have no government, no structures to serve the common good [schools, fire protection, roads and bridges that work, laws against murder, that sort of thing].

The day we get money out of politics? THAT is the day I will rejoice.

I’ll probably be in heaven then. Right near Kurt Vonnegut.

632. Disinvited - March 31, 2014

#620. dmduncan – March 30, 2014

Try the Tarot net. Although I’m a little fuzzy on whether the root has the same connection as the cards?

622. Cygnus-X1 – March 30, 2014

And goodby to single movie purchases on disc. It’ll be collections, anthologies, and libraries of movies from now on.

633. Matt Wright - March 31, 2014

Hi all,

Just to be clear, MJ was banned because of trolling and sockpuppeting.

I don’t want to get into a bunch of mud slinging about it since we’ve managed to be a calmer place since then. But yes MJ was using up to eight different aliases to railroad his point since May 2013 (when STID was released). He has since apologized and I’ve had a good exchange with him over e-mail, he understands my reasons for keeping him off the comments for now.

634. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

630. Marja – March 31, 2014

Or are you referring perhaps to things he could have got done if Kenneth Starr weren’t so intent on learning the dimensions and description of the Clinton peen from Ms Lewinsky? And wasting some $40M to $70M total [estimates vary] of taxpayer money in this witch hunt after failing to find the suspected misdeeds in the Whitewater deal, which he was initially assigned to investigate?

You’re absolutely right about this. Bill Clinton obviously had his flaws, as do we all, but Bill’s flaws were really purposefully exploited by Ken Starr and presumably the GOP/right-wing on whose behalf he was going after Bill. Hillary was sort of mocked for referring to it at the time as a “vast right-wing conspiracy,” but she had a point. It was clear from the day that Bill Clinton became president (the result of a three-way election in which Clinton received less than 50% of the vote) that the GOP regarded him as illegitimate and assume the goal of getting rid of him however they could. Of course, that attitude and behavior on the part of the GOP has not changed in the years since Clinton, nor do I expect that it will until they get back the presidency.

635. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

Thanks for the update, Matt.

636. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@633. Matt Wright

“MJ was using up to eight different aliases”

Bloody hell!

Thanks for the clarification, Matt.

637. Marja - March 31, 2014

634 Cygnus, “Of course, that attitude and behavior on the part of the GOP has not changed in the years since Clinton, nor do I expect that it will until they get back the presidency.”

Hellz, Cygnus, they kept up that attitude all during W Bush’s presidency … I don’t see it changing, ever, as long as they can exploit their success at the propaganda strategy “tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth” — these are “truths” at least in the eyes of the gullible, or those threatened by the exposure of the lie.

Watch the words, I always say. “Cui bono?” Who benefits from getting people to believe a certain message? From this I can pretty much divine why the Right promulgates certain beliefs.

Yes, yes, they will say but you lefties believe big government is the cure for everything. Well, big government is more help to the middle and lower classes than minimal government, with minimal regulation. Laborers would suffer without OSHA protections, without limitations on the hours management expects them to work. In fact the “right to work” is clever code for “doing labor without protections from a union.”

One of my primary concerns about smaller government is deregulation of the energy, agriculture and manufacturing sectors. Pollution will become worse than it already is; food quality will become even more than it is now, with accompanying human suffering; laborers will suffer from unsafe working conditions even more than they do today in mines, for example. Due to reductions in personnel allowances and the budget for such personnel to travel, inspections of facilities, the food supply, and machine works have been slashed.

Right now, the middle class suffers a large tax burden with larger government, BUT MOSTLY BECAUSE big business gets taxpayer-funded Corporate Welfare, and the top 1 – 2% of the rich pay about 1/3 of the tax they used to pay. Rates were as high as 91%, then lowered to 70% by the 1970s. Now they pay somewhere around 30%. I haven’t seen many benefits accrue to the middle and lower class from this; in fact income differences have become even vaster than they used to be [well, unless you go back to the age of the Robber Barons. Again, many of today’s superrich inherited their wealth; they are not the “entrepeneurs” so vaunted by the Right. Those folks may be quite wealthy, but they have nothing on the superrich.

638. Keachick (Rose) - March 31, 2014

So was MJ using these various aliases before 2013 as well?

He and a group, which did include RDR, were rather cruel to me around the end of 2011. It all got so convoluted I cannot remember just what some of the disagreement was about, but I did feel that I was being ganged up on. Part of me wanted/needed to withdraw completely from this site at that time, but another part of me felt that I had as much right to comment here as anybody else.

It was not long after I first came to this site that I realized that MJ could be an ass, but I did not think that he could be such a big one.

639. Disinvited - March 31, 2014

Difficult to know what exactly these revelations about MJ mean to me and as to whether I should risk derailing Trek talk to address it much.

Seems certain that if he ever contributes to these parts again, how I respond will never be quite as it was.

Well, live and learn.

640. TrekMadeMeWonder - March 31, 2014

636. Ahmed – March 31, 2014

Makes me look like the golden boy around here.

But, hey. At least I fessed up on my own.

TrekMadeMeWonder AKA, Other Guy.

641. TrekMadeMeWonder - March 31, 2014

BTW. Spidey 2 looks real fun, if you can get past Hollyweird’s bastardizing the of characters. I mean Spidey 1 was OK fun, but man the decisions they made in production. Sheesh. Made Star Trek 2 almost as intelligent.

Though, you should only go to see it after you’ve seen Cap 2 4+ times.

642. Curious Cadet - March 31, 2014

@636. Ahmed,
“Bloody hell!”

Fact? Case closed? And of course: MJ owes everyone on this forum an Apology? ;-)

I’m not sure why this surprises you. It was really pretty obvious, and I’m floored anyone believed this wasn’t the case, much less defended him as of late. I stopped responding to MJ, K-7, Disco Spock, et al a long time ago. There simply was no point as “they” were never interested in debating but rather beating a straw man into the ground to discredit the person who offered any point of view with which MJ disagreed, and resorting to personal attacks if that didn’t work.

643. Basement Blogger - March 31, 2014

I’m sorry to hear that MJ was also sock puppeting. I had suspicions as I have said before.but was unwilling to make the accusation without evidence. That’s why I questioned K-7.

I’m going to miss MJ. Contrary to some opinion, he and I did not agree with everything. There was aggressive debating. I liked Star Trek 2009 but was critical of it. He really liked it. We both defended STID. And we both took a lot of heat for concluding that Khan was in that movie. I always thought he was right that Star Trek should have a place at San Diego’s Comic Con. I will also say this. He fought people who made things up on these boards.

@ 638. There was a time in 2010 when a group of us banded together to set a record of posts. It was a time where Anthony had taken a leave. The site was slow. But a group of us, Keachick, MJ, Harry Ballz, Emperor Mike, Vultan, Dmduncan and others posted over twenty four hundred posts. I thought it showed the world that the site was still alive. You, Keachick, and MJ didn’t fight then. I’ve fought with you, Keachick since then. But I don’t hold any bad blood. And I hope you don’t have any towards me. We found some agreement on STID. So I hope you can forgive MJ.

But I hope this ends the speculation regarding RDR and myself. Red Dead Ryan is not MJ. I am not Spock. Um… sorry for that. I am not MJ.

644. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

638. Keachick (Rose) – March 31, 2014

Trekkie Jan said the same thing last year. I hope she comes back. As a writing instructor she had some good insights. Now that you mention it, I used to stay away from this site because of MJ also. I’d check in from time, there was always this “MJ” who was inordinately rude and nasty to me, I guess because I tended to be critical of Star Trek ’09. I suppose I finally decided, as you did, that I had as much right as anyone to express my opinions and began participating here more regularly last year, trying to ignore MJ as best I could. Hopefully Dom will come back too at some point.

645. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

637. Marja – March 31, 2014

I don’t see it changing, ever, as long as they can exploit their success at the propaganda strategy “tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”

They really have mastered the art of the massive misinformation campaign. And the advent of FoxNews, the president of which is Roger Ailes, of course, cousin to GW Bush and former RNC Chairman, has helped a great in that regard.

Don’t even get me started on their policies. Their deregulation advocacies are nothing short of ridiculous. Remember the Repub Primary debates in 2012 when they were all trying to top each other over the number of Fed Gov agencies that they’d each shut down as president? The Dept of Energy, Dept of Education, Dept of Commerce, IRS, Environmental Protection Agency…the Republican Party jumped the shark in 2010 and I don’t see them un-jumping it any time soon. Golly, fellas…what would happen if you geniuses got into power and did everything that you’re vehemently pledging to do? We’d have Americans getting sick and dying left and right from un-inspected food, toxic pollution, contaminated water…generations of uneducated citizens…sorry, like I said, don’t get me started.

646. Disinvited - March 31, 2014

#640. TrekMadeMeWonder – March 31, 2014

I can’t speak for how Matt views things now but as I recall when I felt the need to change my own handle, Anthony didn’t object to changes. He just wanted us to be open about it and I believe he had a rule that once you contributed 1 post under some name to a thread that you were stuck with it till the thread’s close – at least that’s what I seem to recall him telling me about changing my handle. He really did not seem to care if some had a different unique name for each comment thread but if ever someone who seemed to like doing that got confused about which name was for what thread and accidentally posted two different names in the same thread: permaban loomed.

I base that on a hazy memory of a contributor here who liked to post in TNG themed articles as a TNG character, TOS as TOS, DS9 as DS9, etc. and a lecture from AP to the poster that he’d allow it but as a long term thing he didn’t think it was wise because if the name juggler unintentionally crossed threads resulting in two different handles in the same thread, he/she risked permaban in all threads which just wasn’t worth it for that little bit of fun in AP’s estimation.

I don’t want to create a picture of Anthony as an ogre about it – he wasn’t. He overlooked typos and add-on word changes to handles (especially in regards to handle collisions) all the time.

It’s been so long since I’ve had recourse to it that I barely remember where but I believe there’s some place around here that lists the “rules”. The ABOUT section, maybe? Dunno, things have changed since way back then.

647. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@642. Curious Cadet

I didn’t suspect that at all, was just thinking that K-7 & the rest were just ganging up with MJ on anyone who disliked STID. Only after the Bob issue that I begin to notice the timing, they used to post in the evening for example, and of course the similar aggressive attitude.

@643. Basement Blogger

“I will also say this. He fought people who made things up on these boards.”

oh sure, he fought it by making up eight different personalities, nice !

Sorry but I lost all respect for the guy. If he felt so insecure about his own views that he made up fake personalities to attack others & in the process degenerating the level of discourse on this site, then it is all the better that he was found out & banned.

648. Disinvited - March 31, 2014

Maybe this is what I was recalling?:

http://trekmovie.com/about/privacy-statement/

“If we are alerted to something we deem inappropriate in any way (this includes but it not limited to: harassing other commenters, trying to post as two different names in the same comment chain, and/or repeated uses of inappropriate language), we may delete it at our discretion.”

649. Matt Wright - March 31, 2014

@ 646 — Your scenario of occasional name changes is not the same as what was happening here more recently. MJ purposefully used multiple fake names in the same article comment chains to push his view point and thus via his multiple “people” stomp all over people who disagreed with him.
I knew it was happening to some degree, but I didn’t really do a through look into it until more recently, when I found the 8 other names he had used over time.

@Keachick – Not that I have seen, his multiple identities stuff started around the time of Into Darkness’ theatrical release when people disagreed with his views on the film.

650. Disinvited - March 31, 2014

#649. Matt Wright – March 31, 2014

Sorry, if I gave you the impression that I was addressing your specific MJ decisions. To the contrary, I agree with them wholeheartedly. However I welcomed the opportunity it gave you to state clearly once and for all what MJ had done. What I meant was that I can’t speak for how tight a reigns you hold with regards to changing names now that you are defacto in charge of the call – not implying MJ changed any of that, only that you aren’t Anthony and I only have knowledge of his views on it hazily recollected.

What I was addressing was that what TrekMadeMeWonder described to my mind would merely be regarded as name change and not on the level of MJ’s offenses and the fuzzy line that had to be crossed for that MJ level to be reached.

651. dmduncan - March 31, 2014

645. Cygnus-X1 – March 31, 2014

Whew! You sound like a True Believer–and the worst kind. That is, one who thinks the “facts” are all on his “side,” and that all his emotional conclusions follow inexorably from the facts.

652. TrekMadeMeWonder - March 31, 2014

Geez. Now I am going to have to re-read some long ago arguments and who it was that was ganging on me when I brought up, what I thought was a valid 911 smoking gun.

I don’t need to repost that video link I challenged you all with, do I?

653. dmduncan - March 31, 2014

MJ had 8 aliases? Hilarious–and very nutty. That means he was having conversations and disagreements with himself in order to convince people his aliases weren’t the same person.

But there was evidence he was doing it. 1. So many of his “friends” sounded exactly like he did. There’s a signature in the way people express themselves, and all his buddies had his signature. 2. He was paranoid and often the first to accuse others of sockpuppet attacks against him. Which signifies that he was afraid people were doing to him what he was doing to others. MJ’s paranoia was due to a guilty conscience.

“The wicked flee when none pursueth.”

It was impossible to believe that MJ had so many devoted defenders who all sounded just like him, and that his paranoid obsession with sockpuppet attacks had no roots.

654. crazydaystrom - March 31, 2014

It’s been pointed out the phrases that “The Faction” used repeatedly. The most telling one was the one used most -

“I agree with MJ.”

I’m not sure if it was a permaban, as I feel it should be, but if it wasn’t I think it should be a ban for not less time than the duration of the immature and abusive offense.

655. Phil - March 31, 2014

@652. No one cared about it then, and nothing has changed since then.

656. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@ 654. crazydaystrom – March 31, 2014

“I’m not sure if it was a permaban, as I feel it should be, but if it wasn’t I think it should be a ban for not less time than the duration of the immature and abusive offense.”

Agreed.

@652. TrekMadeMeWonder – March 31, 2014

“I don’t need to repost that video link I challenged you all with, do I?”

Thanks but no, we spent endless hours on that topic back then, no need to go through that again.

657. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@ 653. dmduncan – March 31, 2014

“MJ had 8 aliases? Hilarious–and very nutty. That means he was having conversations and disagreements with himself in order to convince people his aliases weren’t the same person.”

Yup, like the countless times he was acting as a mediator between “K-7″ & myself !!

658. TrekMadeMeWonder - March 31, 2014

I am still on that page, and many others, until the truth is found out by all.

But, I respect youz guys’ space here.

659. Keachick (Rose) - March 31, 2014

Thank you, Matt Wright.

Basement Blogger – I cannot recall having any major disagreements with you. In fact, at one point, when there was much debate, you were the one who pointed out how I was going wrong in my approach to dealing with some of the animosity levelled against me.

Elsewhere, I have been warned about a poster who I am told is not all they appear to be. Just don’t know who you can trust. I don’t know – just don’t get this stuff…:(

660. Dee - lvs moon surface - March 31, 2014

And then the question that I ask myself … was it? is? just MJ all the time? Yes, because I suspect someone is playing the same game elsewhere! Yikes!

661. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

651. dmduncan – March 31, 2014

Whew! You sound like a True Believer–and the worst kind. That is, one who thinks the “facts” are all on his “side,” and that all his emotional conclusions follow inexorably from the facts.

I mean…I suppose you could say that I’m a true believer in what I see with my eyes and hear with my ears—i.e. that I am not a solipsist—as that is how I came to know the “facts” that I mentioned. I think that most people agree that when you hear somebody say something, and then you repeat what they’ve said more or less verbatim, that what you are citing qualifies as “fact” for the purposes of discussion.

The alternative, I suppose, would be to conclude that those Republican candidates were lying, pandering to the most extreme faction of the right-wing, or otherwise being disingenuous and insincere. I don’t know what you regard as “emotional” about taking people at their word. In any case, you give me the impression that I am happy to disappoint you with whatever it is that I am “the worst kind” of.

662. Disinvited - March 31, 2014

FWIW I was listening to the commentary track of THE ADVENTURES OF BRISCO COUNTY, JR. and Cuse and Campbell said that originally the characters to carry the series were conceived as a quad: newspaperman chronicler, lawyer, rival bounty hunter and Brisco, but by the end of the pilot film the newspaperman was obviously redundant. Campbell goes on to observe that a triad is what really works to carry a series.

An interesting observation, however, no doubt, there are those fans who view Comet, his horse, very much as a fourth character wheel helping to hold up the coach and make things roll smoothly. And then there’s Dixie a strong female character that, unfortunately, only appeared in 7 of its 27 episodes and the pilot movie.

Anyway fodder for the Trek trinity discussions?

663. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

647. Ahmed – March 31, 2014

@643. Basement Blogger “I will also say this. He fought people who made things up on these boards.”

oh sure, he fought it by making up eight different personalities, nice !

657. Ahmed – March 31, 2014

Yup, like the countless times he was acting as a mediator between “K-7″ & myself !!

That’s pretty hilarious, I got to admit.

Now that you mention it, I recall him acting as mediator between me and his “Disco Spock” alias once.

664. Matt Wright - March 31, 2014

@650 – Disinvited — Gotcha, no worries.

665. Keachick (Rose) - March 31, 2014

MJ was the one person who constantly confused rumour with fact, making them out to be synonymous. Rumour is definitely not fact. A rumour may at some point be proven to be an actual fact, but until that happens, a rumour is just that – a rumour aka speculation only.

MJ congratulated himself on getting it right about Benedict Cumberbatch really being Khan, going on as if he knew it to be a fact. It was only rumoured, until officially announced, which did not happen until release of STID. Yet MJ would browbeat everyone with his “rumour” citing another rumour as proof of a fact…holy moly – so f*ckwitted.

Dee – Are you thinking that this other poster could be another alias for MJ? Surely not?…

666. Keachick (Rose) - March 31, 2014

How could MJ have got away with it for as long as he did?
Out of curiosity – what were his aliases?

667. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

665. Keachick (Rose) – March 31, 2014

Rumour is definitely not fact. A rumour may at some point be proven to be an actual fact, but until that happens, a rumour is just that – a rumour aka speculation only.

Interesting…you’ve reminded me of the line from The Usual Suspects: A rumor’s not a rumor that doesn’t die.”

It’s a bit of a tricky word play, but I just noticed that it clears up when you reverse the two parts of the sentence: A rumor that doesn’t die is not a rumor. Meaning that if it doesn’t die it becomes regarded as fact—or, I suppose, as urban legend—and no longer qualifies as “rumor.” I guess it’s just a witty way of saying that rumors either die or graduate to higher levels of credence.

668. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@ 659. Keachick (Rose) – March 31, 2014

“Just don’t know who you can trust. I don’t know – just don’t get this stuff…:(”

Trust No One!

@666. Keachick (Rose) – March 31, 2014

“Out of curiosity – what were his aliases?”

Most of his “gang” for sure, K-7 & Disco Spock among them, I think. Only Matt Wright can tells us.

669. Vultan (a non-MJ personality) - March 31, 2014

Congrats to Matt for laying down the law here. I have noticed this site is a bit more hospitable since Sybil was banned.

670. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

666. Keachick (Rose) – March 31, 2014

Out of curiosity – what were his aliases?

I’ll offer my list, though obviously Matt is the only one who can confirm it.

This is what I have for his regular aliases, though in that thread that I referenced previously there was another one called “Silvereyes” that I think was also an MJ alias:

(1)MJ
(2)K-7
(3)Garak’s Pride
(4)Dave H
(5)Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle
(6)Red Shirt Diaries
(7)Disco Spock
(8)MJB

671. Dee - lvs moon surface - March 31, 2014

#665 – Keachick

sounds impossible? … yep … but believe me what you just described about the rumour makes the thing seem definitely possible …

THE THING is unbelievable… at least in my experience with the thing!

672. dmduncan - March 31, 2014

661. Cygnus-X1 – March 31, 2014

You see what with your eyes and hear what with your ears? Republican lies and complicit Fox News deception? And do your eyes and ears stop working when Democrats, Obama, and non-Fox networks are involved?

Railing against Republican lies and complicit media deception–as if lies and deception are what you really care about–is absurd in the context of the past five years of the Obama presidency.

Your concern with facts seems to go only so far as they make your case, and therefore it’s not facts that really matter to you or you would be universally concerned about who failed to speak them.

673. Dee - lvs moon surface - March 31, 2014

#665 – Keachick

btw, for my experience it is watching us! Yikes!

674. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

672. dmduncan – March 31, 2014

Yeah…OK, well, food for thought.

To say that I am not interested in a political argument of the kind that you are raising is to understate my feelings about such an activity. Been there, done that X1000. The internet is full of accessible reputable information for anyone who is interested.

675. dmduncan - March 31, 2014

Sad and amazing that MJ put that much effort into deceiving people. And then used Marja–was it?–to try and get the message across that he was banned for trolling, not sock-puppetry!

And that last item seems especially detached from reality–trying to get that message in here to control our perception of him, and hoping Matt would not contradict it.

676. dmduncan - March 31, 2014

674. Cygnus-X1 – March 31, 2014

To say that I am not interested in a political argument of the kind that you are raising is to understate my feelings about such an activity. Been there, done that X1000. The internet is full of accessible reputable information for anyone who is interested.

***

Oh I couldn’t have said it better. And while it would be easy for me to prove my point about this administration, I refuse to get into any political link-posting wars.

But I am disappointed that there aren’t more democrats sounding like I do. There should be more. A lot more.

677. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@670. Cygnus-X1

“(1)MJ
(2)K-7
(3)Garak’s Pride
(4)Dave H
(5)Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle
(6)Red Shirt Diaries
(7)Disco Spock
(8)MJB”

Yup, that sounds right.

678. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

Looks like Bob is busy with the new Latino network, El Rey.

==================================

Alfred Molina to Co-Star in El Rey’s Kurtzman/Orci Drama ‘Matador’

From Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman (Star Trek, Sleepy Hollow), the story chronicles the unlikely rise of Antonio “Matador” Bravo (Gabriel Luna), a popular soccer star who uses his fame to cover the fact that he’s a skilled covert operative executing missions for a little known branch of the CIA.

The character’s notoriety gives him access to powerful circles of corruption and villainy. The drama will explore how Matador balances his double life as he questions his true identity while balancing his most dangerous mission yet.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/alfred-molina-star-el-reys-690511
==================================

It sounds great, will give it a shot.

679. Marja - March 31, 2014

651 dmduncan, I know you directed your comment at Cygnus, but he was responding to me, so I’ll let you know my thoughts on “true believers.”

I think emotional arguments are made on both sides; since I am human I speak of things that affect me as a human being. Call me a “true believer” if you like, I’m only listening to debates with a critical ear and the “evidence” presented by the different “wings” of our political spectrum.

I stand to lose a great deal if the government- and “entitlement(*)”- cutters have their way; i.e., my entire retirement and my social security, which have been promised me for four decades, since I started working, and later, serving in the US military. I am up-front about what I stand to lose. I am not rich, nor even upper middle class; and like many Americans I stand to lose a great deal if the oligarchs [and the politicians over whom they have far too much influence] have their way.
—————————————————————————————–
(*) As a writer I am also sensitive to “coded” language; “entitlement” brings up the negative connotations many of us have about people who act “entitled,” such as playboys, frat house boys, Reagan’s fictional “welfare queens,” those who claim things that don’t entirely belong to them. If they were termed “funds owed,” “retirement funds,” or “retired workers’ emergency funds,” say, I’m sure the Right would quit talking about them as negatively as they do now.

The Right is superb at “messaging” — that consistent hammering at the consciousness, using the same words and phrases again and again — and at using coded language to say what they really mean, to those who “get” the code.
—————————————————————————————–

I look at evidence, as well. That’s why I assert that “Supply Side Economics” is a fairy tale the rich tell themselves to justify screwing middle-class workers and the working poor. It’s not a workable economic system and hasn’t been since the “Reagan Revolution.” Reagan’s own architect of the system, David Stockman, has since admitted that it was indeed “Voodoo Economics.”

680. marja - March 31, 2014

661 Cygnus, I think that most people agree that when you hear somebody say something, and then you repeat what they’ve said more or less verbatim, that what you are citing qualifies as “fact” for the purposes of discussion. Well, they certainly qualify as subjects under debate, but I think perhaps “fact” is a stringent word that does not necessarily apply.

And there, in a nutshell, is the problem with contemporary “news” media. Now they are more like “claim-spreading” media. It seems most “news” outlets are not interested in journalism [objective reporting of fact] but in “opinion-ism,” or citing the claims and opinions of various think tanks as mouthed by their pet politicians.

your 670, nah, I think Silvereyes is different, unless MJ is Canadian. Silvereyes is from Ontario or Quebec, I forget which. As for Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle, I always thought that was the name of one of the so-called feminists who hates everything related to Spock and Uhura’s relationship. I could be wrong though.

OK 662 Disinvited, I’ll bite. I think, in keeping with today’s moviegoing audience, there should be a “fourth wheel” and not a horse, either. [In fact I would "bridle" at a comparison between her and a horse (and here I whinny with laughter).]

Here’s how I see it. Uhura is to Spock what McCoy is to Kirk. And no, “slash” fans, that’s not what I mean. [At all.] She is the emotive, communicative friend of Spock, who is the factual scientist, and is not so good at communicating things in a palatable fashion to his human compatriots. McCoy is the humanist philosopher to Kirk’s decision-making man of action. I think the four of them could have some excellent and philosophically interesting/exciting arguments as Kirk decides what actions to take. And sometimes, perhaps disastrously, makes the decision they were all hoping he wouldn’t.

675 Duncan, I’m a Green at heart, and hold my nose and vote Democrat, because Greens don’t stand a snowball’s chance in the hot place of winning the presidency or even a senate seat. And being of a somewhat socialist bent, were I able, I would vote to re-elect Bernie Sanders. My hat’s off to the Liberal Democrats, god bless ‘em, it’s harder and harder to speak as they do and not be branded the next-worst thing to a “commie pinko.”

I think lying is endemic in the political arena, and that’s what makes it hard for people without a critical ear to separate the bafflement with bullshit from the facts. I will never say the Democrats deal strictly in fact; they’re political, so of course they’re going to lie. Sadly, it’s how poorly they “packaged their message” that lost them the House and Senate in 2010.

Thing is, few Americans receive education in how our government works, and so they think the presidential elections are the be-all and end-all in deciding our country’s policies, domestic and foreign. Nope.

Marx once said that “religion is the opiate of the people.” Besides the religious who believe in kindness in many cases, and the crazy stuff, in other cases, many Americans seem far more interested in “March Madness,” the Superbowl, the doings in “Duck Dynasty” land and in the Kardashian households to attend to things that really matter, but what the hell, I’m saying this on a Star Trek news site. Self awareness is half the battle, innit.

Trekmovie and fanfic keep me off the streets, I like to say, but I do make time to attend to what the Florida State Legislature and the US Congress are up to, and I’m sure you do, as well.

Our opinions may differ vastly, but lord bless us, at least we’re aware of the politics going on around us that will determine, to a fairly large degree, the course of our existence in this country we love.

681. Keachick (Rose) - March 31, 2014

#670, #676 – If you are right, one or two of those posters made my life here a misery…:(

682. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

678. Marja – March 31, 2014

It’s not a workable economic system and hasn’t been since the “Reagan Revolution.

And the only reason that it was workable back then was because the national debt was small enough that quadrupling it over the 12 years of Reagan and GHW Bush didn’t have the impact that it would today. They basically pumped $1 trillion (in 1980s dollars) of economic stimulus into the US economy by borrowing it to fund their Voodoo Economics tax policies. The 10-year-long, on-again-off-again recession and cost-push inflation due to oil scarcity in the 1970s were finally cured by the Fed’s ultra tight monetary policy under Paul Volcker’s leadership in the late 1970s and early 1980s, combined with energy policies that decreased US dependence on oil and an increase in the global supply of oil. The Voodoo Economics of Reagan’s day (“Reaganomics,” some called it) won’t fly simply because too many people are too worried about the national debt. Technically, we could probably do it for a few years and be fine, though maybe not for another 12-year spree.

683. Cygnus-X1 - March 31, 2014

I kind of garbled that last post.

What I meant to say is that the problems of the 1970s were finally cured by mid-1982 or so, and the 12 years worth of idle production capacity and slack in the labor market were like a fully-fueled Ferrari with the engine running just waiting for its gas pedal to be nudged. Pumping $1 trillion in stimulus into the economy and having a perma-grinning president who was a trained actor filling the people with confidence surged the economy forward. It was easy, in retrospect, to attribute the economic expansion of the 1980s (which was still considerably less of an expansion than those of the 1960s and 1990s) to Voodoo Economics and conservatism in general. The economic data, however, show that the majority of Americans saw more quickly rising wages in the 1970s than in all of the decades since. Anyway, technically we could do Voodoo Economics again today if it were politically feasible, but it isn’t.

684. B Kramer - March 31, 2014

670 & 676 Cygnus & Ahmed re List:

“Just how many of you are there Mr. A-to-z?’

It would be fun to reverse engineer some of those jokers discussions. Some of the doozies were for example: explaining the definition of hypocrite, mentioning himself with the likes of Christ and Ghandi etc. but moving on:

Cumberbatch And Eve Reunite for GQ Style Photo Shoot

http://www.startrek.com/article/cumberbatch-and-eve-reunite-for-gq-style-photo-shoot

685. Lemingsworth Bint - March 31, 2014

I think I am an MJ sockpuppet. However, I am also the Curious Cadet-Disinvited family of sockpuppets.

I like to cover all the bases.

686. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@683. B Kramer

“Cumberbatch And Eve Reunite for GQ Style Photo Shoot

http://www.startrek.com/article/cumberbatch-and-eve-reunite-for-gq-style-photo-shoot

Nice shot!

We can rest assured now that ST 13 will feature a time travel plot where Khan and Dr. Carol travel to 21st century Earth looking for the fruit of knowledge that is hidden in Disneyland :)

687. B Kramer - March 31, 2014

686 La ya Ahmed. You gave the story away. ;^)

LLAP

688. Ahmed - March 31, 2014

@686. B Kramer

“686 La ya Ahmed. You gave the story away. ;^)”

lol, I take it that you speak Arabic ? :)

689. Buzz Cagney - March 31, 2014

How dysfunctional must a person be to feel they need to ‘invent’ multiple personalities in order to attempt to prove their arguments and ‘win’ arguments in the vacuum that is the internet! Its pretty messed up.

690. Basement Blogger - April 1, 2014

@ 663

Ahmed.

Touche. I agree that there was hypocrisy in pointing out the facts that others made up when MJ was lying about himself. But like I said, I’ll miss his pointing out stuff that comes from nowhere. I remember a small non-controversial comment where a poster said Star Trek was bigger than Star Wars as a franchise, i.e. bringing in the dough etc. MJ was quick to point hat was not correct. I complimented MJ to sticking to his principles when there were delays for STID. You see he supported Bad Robot but when they messed up, he was not an apologist.

@ 670

Cygnus

IN DEFENSE OF SILVEREYES

You need to stop insinuating that other people are MJ without proof. I think it should be clear to you that I am not MJ and neither is Red Dead Ryan. (Your cryptic comments @ 520, 561)

You now implicate Silvereyes. Could Matt straighten this out? Yes. But I’ve had conversations with Silvereyes at Chat. By the way, MJ did not hang out at Chat because we’re supposed to get along over there. Anyway, I had a question regarding how the Canadians speak French and how the French speak French. Silvereyes answered it. (Chat @ 240) Silvereyes says he’s from Canada and speaks French. MJ is from Southern California, I believe he lives near San Diego. So unless, MJ knows how the Canadians speak French, I argue that Silvereys is not MJ. At least have some evidence before you accuse somebody.

Just because somebody disagrees with you does not mean they were MJ. And just because somebody disagrees with you doesn’t mean we were followers of MJ. As I have said, there were strong disagreements between MJ and myself over the years.

@ 659

Keachick, (Rose)

There was an epic dust up between you and I on a Chris Pine thread. If Anthony saw it, he would have shut it down. Trust me he’s deleted posts I had on politics and when he was last here told MJ and I to cool it when we found more evidence of Khan. You see MJ and myself were getting attacked about our conclusion that Khan was in STID. You know us. We had to defend ourselves. Anyway, it’s past history.

Rose, I will always remember how you got your moniker. I think it was MJ that asked the question on that Green Hornet thread. . You posted the Wikipedia article. Kea is a mountain parrot, I believe it’s the only one in the world. And it exists in one place. Your homeland. New Zealand.

691. Curious Cadet - April 1, 2014

@675. dmduncan,
“Sad and amazing that MJ put that much effort into deceiving people.”

The complicated technical side masking IP addresses, creating multiple back stories and personalities, the sheer amount of time managing all these aliases, and spent participating in these forums. MJ claimed a lot of things, and now there’s no way to know if any of it was true. But one thing I hope wasn’t true is that he’s a 50 year old engineer holding three degrees, married and raising a son. Because behavior like this does not exist in a vacuum.

692. TrekMadeMeWonder - April 1, 2014

686. Ahmed

Those two looked as bored as I must have looked – looking at that photo.

Although Eve did remind me of Juliet Lewis on NBK.

This would be a better shot by comparison.

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/Juliette-Lewis-as-Mallory-in-Natural-Born-Killers-5.jpg

693. Mike Barnett - April 1, 2014

670. Cygnus-X1

Not “MJB”! That was me before I switched to my real name.

694. Matt Wright - April 1, 2014

Yep Silvereyes is an occasional poster, he’s been posting since 2009. His IP address is from Canada and the e-mail he uses is a real address. So I wouldn’t worry about Silvereyes.

Guy’s please, let’s not turn this whole thing into a McCarthy-era witch hunt.

695. Silvereyes - April 1, 2014

@ 694 Matt

Well, thank you for clearing that up Matt. Witch hunt is right. On what is anyone basing their assumption that I would be MJ? No don’t answer that, it was a rhetorical question…

@670 Cygnus-X1

Oui je suis de Montréal et je parles français, alors fichez moi la paix avec vos idioties!

696. Keachick (Rose) - April 1, 2014

#694 – On the issue of IP/email addresses -
When I first posted to this site, I could use my address that I used elsewhere – a NZ ISP address ending in “@xtra.co.nz”, which is a standard address used by thousands of NZers, because Telecom is the largest internet provider here. Then suddenly, probably a bit more than a year ago, none of my posts using this email address would appear here. My son (being a tech-capable teen, as opposed to his tech-nong mum) had actually given me an address to use which was/is “@gmail.com”. This is the address I have to use now.

I wonder if it is something to do with your *end*, Matt Wright. It’s just a bit strange really. I would rather use my co.nz one because this is where I am writing and posting from, and barring a miraculous major financial windfall, I cannot see myself being anywhere else, either short term or long term.

@Basement Blogger – It is funny but I cannot recall much of any real “dust up” I have had with you. I am sure you are right. Perhaps it was something to do with Chris Pine being sued by his previous agency… That thread provided for some controversy. What I can remember has been your general reasonableness and even a little kindness shown to me on a couple of occasions.

On the other hand, what I have taken away from other posters, including some of what MJ has written, has not been one of general care/kindness, especially if he has been all these other posters as well, as some have suggested, then this behaviour has a rather cruel streak attached to it. Not nice at all…:(

697. Keachick (Rose) - April 1, 2014

I see it is 1st April in your time. Unfortunately, shocking news was brought to our attention here in NZ about the fact that our national bird, the endangered kiwi, might well be on the dinner menu in the future.

http://tvnz.co.nz/seven-sharp/kiwi-kai-video-5882262

When I saw this, I was more than a little upset…:(

698. Disinvited - April 1, 2014

#694. Matt Wright – April 1, 2014

Well, having lived through that while quite young and its aftereffects on my father who was asked to sign a loyalty oath while the enemy’s bullets were whizzing by in Korea, I can only concur. However, I can’t help but note that things first felt McCarthyish around here for me when he who shall not be named started flinging around equally spurious sock puppet accusations and essentially accused me of being a sock puppet sympathizer if not one myself in a classic McCarthy guilt by association move.

To turn this towards Trek, I always felt the Cardassians were meant to be Trek’s attempt to address McCarthy but I don’t think it was ever clear how TNG/DS9′s Federation righted the regime’s wrongs other than using them to say “this is wrong.”?

699. Vultan - April 1, 2014

#697

Haha! April Fools! Had me believing it for a few minutes.
Good one.

700. Cygnus-X1 - April 1, 2014

697. Keachick (Rose) – April 1, 2014

You know that was an April Fool’s Day joke, right?

701. Disinvited - April 1, 2014

# 406. Ahmed – March 24, 2014

“On a lighter note.” – Ahmed

Was this your signal that the Trek brew would be a “light” beer? Because wouldn’t that be the purview of that other franchise’s “Saber” ale?

702. Cygnus-X1 - April 1, 2014

It was pretty funny. “Dave”s nonchalant attitude yielded some good one-liners.

703. Hugh Hoyland - April 1, 2014

Has anyone heard about a director yet (even a rumor)? I’ve been fishing around online but so far the buzz seemed to stopped at Cornish.

704. Cygnus-X1 - April 1, 2014

698. Disinvited – April 1, 2014

I’m curious, did you take the Cardassians to be modeled after a specific culture, like the Nazis, or did you take them as a sort of amalgamation of imperialist conquerors?

705. Ahmed - April 1, 2014

@701. Disinvited

“Was this your signal that the Trek brew would be a “light” beer? Because wouldn’t that be the purview of that other franchise’s “Saber” ale?”

“One Master to rule them all”, Master JJ :-)

706. Disinvited - April 1, 2014

#703. Hugh Hoyland – April 1, 2014

ANOMALOUS FILM DIRECTORS’ JOURNAL reported that Paramount in a directing coup just signed William Shatner to direct under a budget deal where whatever he can save from the $150 million budget by filming under cost can be used to finish his first Trek film for its Director’s cut Trek 50th anniversary honoring release.

#705. Ahmed – April 1, 2014

JJ Brew Meister for the brews that are true.

707. Disinvited - April 1, 2014

#704. Cygnus-X1 – April 1, 2014

I believe I got the impression that the Cardassians were meant to represent the worst aspects of the best of Earth’s contemporary civilizations at the time of filming. At least that’s the way I took it.

So for me the Nazis weren’t it, but the worst of the U.S., U.K., Japan, Israel and Canada was.

708. TrekMadeMeWonder - April 1, 2014

694. Matt Wright

Now hold on, Matt!

If we would have listened to McCarthy when he had something to day, perhaps we would’nt have so many commies in charge of such things as… (sorry, I cannot discuss that here).

Video anyone?.

709. Ahmed - April 1, 2014

@706. Disinvited

The ANOMALOUS FILM DIRECTORS’ JOURNAL is wrong.

My sources inside BR told me that Matt Reeves met with JJ & Bob last night at the Chateau Marmont restaurant & that he was hired to direct Star Trek 3. The shooting will begin on June 6 in Hawaii. My sources confirmed that with his bodyguard who was there at the dinner.

710. Keachick (Rose) - April 1, 2014

Yes, bodyguards must be the most knowing of all, given what they must be privy to, especially at venues like the Chateau Marmont restaurant…

Obviously none were DUI but it could be that we will see much (blood)wine, Saurian Brandy and the non-synthehol genuine Scots whiskey, not to mention the four vodkas, on hand/a-flowing in the next Star Trek movie. Don’t need no some LDS/teetotalling Payne writer influence here…:)

Ooops…:/

#700 – Yes…
I did think, at first, that it might be for real, but surely not?. However, my better half asked if I remembered what date it was, to which I replied, “Oh crap….LOL!”

711. dmduncan - April 1, 2014

691. Curious Cadet – April 1, 2014

Nah, I don’t think that was true either. I mean he may have some kind of engineering degree / background, but you don’t have to worry about your airplanes falling out of the sky because of him.

MJ took care not to cross his real identity with his made up ones, but once upon a time he did make a few mistakes too soon after putting me into search-and-destroy mode, trying to take me on in here with his “buddies,” the upshot of which is that he made it easy for me to discover that his real identity IS online and that he’s protecting it from being associated with his comments in here for good reason.

I was going to “out” his real identity the next time he tried to start a fight with me, but then decided it was too heavy-handed a response, and thought that a guy who does what he does would trip himself up someday without my help. I was confident that, ultimately, patience would suffice.

He’s definitely got wires crossed somewhere, and he deserves to have been booted for the unpleasantness that he single-handedly created with the tentacles of his octopus-onality, but he’s not REALLY a monster who deserves to be humiliated beyond redemption.

You might say that what MJ thought he was doing in here was…playing a GAME?

712. Disinvited - April 1, 2014

#709. Ahmed – April 1, 201

Well, a flea I rescued from Shatner’s prized Pomeranian says your source was woozy from JJ’s aftershave lotion and misunderstood their negotiations with Matt to helm the conversion process of Shatner’s opus STAR TREK V to JJ jawdropping 3D using Bad Robot’s groundbreaking SynchroVox process developed to take Trek to the next level.

Fikki Ninke reports Paramount so pleased with NOAH that the next Trek flick script will be full of God and WATER! And there is no better director available that can give God direction than the experienced big head directing master, Shatner.

So up your periscopes Trekkers, The Enterprise is gonna make like a fish.

713. Red Dead Ryan - April 1, 2014

TESTING…….

10…..9…..8…..7…..6…..5…..4…..3…..2…..1….

¤¤¤¤¤¤·······⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙⊙○○○○○○○○●●●●●●●□□□□□□□□□□■■■■■■■♡♡♡♡♡♡♥♥♥♥♥~~~~~~~~~~~PSSSSHHEEEEWWWWWWWWW……..

KA-BOOM!!!!

Oh, hi! Don’t mind me. Just testing out my personal-size Death Star!

714. Curious Cadet - April 1, 2014

@712. Disinvited,
“So up your periscopes Trekkers, The Enterprise is gonna make like a fish.”

Wouldn’t surprise me. The only reason the Enterprise didn’t land on planets and swim underwater before is because it would be too expensive to land the ship on a planet every week in the original series. So it’s high time somebody corrected that situation, now that money is no object. STID’s Nibiru underwater excision was just a prelude of things to come.

That and we’ll find the crew of the Enterprise now wears “magic underwear”.

715. Ahmed - April 1, 2014

@712. Disinvited

I just hung up the phone with my dear friend Ray, THE Ray Donovan! He said that Fikki Ninke doesn’t know $#%t & that he stands by his previous report.

“Mark my word, it is Matt Reeves, pal!” he said. I tell ya, you can’t argue with Ray, if he said it is Matt, then it is Matt :)

He did however confirmed your report that” The Enterprise is gonna make like a fish.”, a big one, for sure!

716. Ahmed - April 1, 2014

@714. Curious Cadet

“That and we’ll find the crew of the Enterprise now wears “magic underwear”.”

LOL

717. Keachick (Rose) - April 1, 2014

Ooh – Enterprise making like a fish – again and “magic underwear” – I’m all there – just you try stop me…:)

718. Marja, aka Dr Phyllida - April 1, 2014

691, Curious, while we’re postulating [gossiping? hmm], I submit that perhaps he has been manic when doing the sockpuppet thing. If he has three degrees, he would seem to have enough capability to keep all those identities straight. When people become manic [and I know this from personal experience] they can become quite hostile [mania's not all about costly shopping sprees and energy to clean out the garage in an hour].

Or perhaps it’s a personality disorder that could “demand” he change people’s opinions to agree with his, no matter what it took. There seemed to be a cycle: the sockpuppetry, followed days later by calmer posts, then posts that showed he’d got riled up again. IDK, just theorizing, and I feel a little trashy for it.

All goes to show, as the New Yorker cartoon put it, “On the internet, no one knows you’re a dog.” We don’t know who the other people here are [except for one Bernie W.]

Despite this, I feel this can be a pretty friendly place, except for the occasional a$$hat. I am grateful to Matt for monitoring, and frankly feel, with all due respect to AP, that Matt — who can’t check in as often — seems to do a better job than AP did on “keeping down the creepy.” IMHO.

719. Disinvited - April 1, 2014

# 716. Ahmed – April 1, 2014, 714. Curious Cadet, 717. Keachick (Rose) – April 1, 2014

No doubt woven from the Tribble’s and Khan’s shorn magic locks.

720. Keachick (Rose) - April 1, 2014

My sources, who are impeccably reliable, are telling me as I write, that the next Star Trek film will see Pine/Kirk turn up on the bridge of the Enterprise wearing only this magic underwear, due to a transporter malfunction. However, that is not the end of malfunctions – apparently all the captain’s uniforms and civies have been vented through the ship’s airlocks. When the captain attempts to put another uniform or any piece of clothing, it immediately disintegrates, except for the magic underwear.

First Officer Spock and engineer Scotty are at a loss and Scotty is concerned that he will lose his miracle worker status. The explanation that some kind of spatial anomaly could be the cause has been given. However, many crew, especially the females, seem to appear to have a permanent smile of a gentle, wistful kind as they are made aware of their captain’s new attire…

This can only be good!

It is hoped that writers Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman, JD Payne and Patrick McKay will confirm this substantiated rumour sooner rather than later, however, given that this third Star Trek is made by JJ Abrams Bad Robot Production Company, it is likely that the Mystery Box will remain in place.

Patience, friends, patience!

721. Marja - April 1, 2014

704 Cygnus, certainly Gul Dukat [Marc Alaimo] was modelled after those Nazi officers running the concentration camps, who had “affairs” with the Jewish internees and convinced themselves they were decent fellows who treated their charges kindly. He also had the same overweening personality as that sort of person.

Cardassians in general strike me as more modelled on the Soviets of the ’50s/’60s; holding trials at which verdicts were pre-determined; secretive, untrustworthy, but educated people with some refined tastes, devoted to their government and survival of their culture.
————————————————————————————————-

712 duncan, “You might say that what MJ thought he was doing in here was…playing a GAME?” Yes, that sounds about right, and it was one he HAD to win. Look at the lengths he went to ….
————————————————————————————————–

Going to look up Matt Reeves, but remembering this is April 1.

722. Marja - April 1, 2014

Well … Reeves appears to be a friend of JJ Abrams.

But how the heck would he fit filming Trek3 in before he directs the next “Apes” movie in 2016??

723. Ahmed - April 1, 2014

@ 721. Marja – April 1, 2014

“Well … Reeves appears to be a friend of JJ Abrams.

But how the heck would he fit filming Trek3 in before he directs the next “Apes” movie in 2016??”

Abrams asked Matt that very question at the dinner last night, Matt stated that he is honored to direct Star Trek & the truth is that he couldn’t care less about the damn dirty apes!

724. dmduncan - April 1, 2014

Hey, whoever owns an iPad and hasn’t discovered it yet should go and buy the Sky Guide app for $2. You set your location and hold your iPad anywhere and it gives you a night view of that part of the sky that shows constellations, stars, nebulas, satellites that are moving as you watch! You can locate the ISS and Hubble telescope. You can actually identify a star or planet in the sky by holding your iPad up at it and seeing it on your iPad and then tapping it for more information. You can see where the sun is behind the earth at night and where the moon is. It tracks the sky in realtime as you move your iPad around. I just can’t say enough wonderful things about the app. It’s the coolest. If you are curious about which star or object is what in the night sky, I can’t think of an easier or more fun way to find out than with this app.

Check it out here:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sky-guide-view-stars-night/id576588894?mt=8

725. Red Dead Ryan - April 1, 2014

Ah, “magic underwear”– could come in handy should an “accident” occur during an away mission. Nanotechnology allows for expansion (for potential butt size increase), self-cleaning, and self-sewing.

Who knows, one may be stuck on a planet with a hostile climate and scary monsters with nowhere to relieve oneself. :-)

726. Vultan - April 1, 2014

#724

I have that app. It’s awesome stuff! I mean… seeing the sun under your feet! Simple but effective.

727. dmduncan - April 1, 2014

726. Vultan – April 1, 2014

I bought the satellite plugin for another $2, so I can search for any of 250 satellites and it will show me where it is at the moment. It appears that the ISS and Hubble are only visible when I’m sleeping.

A most amazing app.

728. Keachick (Rose) - April 1, 2014

OT – I just feel that I need to say this –

I see that Chris Pine is driving his car – solo. I don’t know if any restrictions have been placed on him, re driving, since his NZ conviction but it does seem that the fact that he was disqualified from driving here has made no difference. He can drive back in the US as if he’s done nothing wrong. I guess if you can afford a good lawyer who can plea bargain (or whatever it’s called), you can almost get away with anything. It just makes a mockery of laws made that are actually meant to warn and protect people. The fact that he was driving to the Chateau Marmont, a hotel/restaurant that is well known for selling expensive wines (with or without a meal) kind of adds “injury to insult”.

It looks rather disgusting. This is not just about Chris Pine. He is part of a culture that seems to allow for (gross) inequality under the law. I doubt that an ordinary American citizen convicted, as he was, for a similar crime would be allowed to drive anything, even if it meant losing his job, and even his home.

Chris Pine may go on about the “dissolution of privacy” (USA Today 17 January). His whole tenor re social media and privacy (which he needs to define, since he has criticized other people for making public which he deems should be private) does look a little meh? in the face of his drunk driving conviction handed down to him in NZ.

When you drive anywhere with 113mgs of alcohol in your body on an empty stomach, you pose a threat to yourself and anybody who happens to be on those roads. This is a PUBLIC matter. The fact is that NZ roads adhere to the same international system when it comes to road markings, signage, speed limits and the generally accepted .08 or 80mg/100ml alcohol limit.

The conviction and disqualification should mean something wherever a person is. At least, a space ship can “drive” itself. A car can’t.

I feel outraged. I am sorry but that is how it is.
Damn it!!!

729. Vultan - April 2, 2014

#727

I saw an ISS flyover a few years ago. Even though it was just a dot lasting for a couple of minutes, it was still impressive to see. And I was lucky enough to catch a MIR flyover a month or so before it was de-orbited. Another dot, another good memory.

Some enterprising (forgive the pun) Trekkie should create a Trek version of that app. Hey look, it’s Spacedock!

730. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

#718 Marja – hi ya doc :) – I recall suggesting a while ago that everyone reveal their real first names. My suggestion was clearly ignored.

I know the names of three posters with Bernie Wong being one of them. Jack revealed his first name sometime back and Harry Ballz revealed his name/surname and well, my name is Rosemary, which is often shortened to Rose by family. I guess it does not matter, since people can make up anything they like. The internet – ’tis a strange place…

People will speak their minds and sometimes it is just horrible drivel. There is always talk of free speech and yet people seem so scared or could it be indifference at times? I don’t know. I recall sometime back asking some posters here to just write where they lived, as in (closest) city or state and what time it was at the time of writing. People couldn’t even give me the time of day, literally, except for Phil. Why? Bored, disinterested, scared?

Before the internet, people had penpals. These were people who may have lived in other countries who may never get to meet the other. It was good to receive one or two photos of them and where they lived, in order to put a face to a name. I guess this is what email and facebook, set to personal, can do now. Also, people could present their views on topics of the day to newspapers and have them, along with their full names, published. It was quite rare to see “Name withheld by request”. People still do that – at least, here. Maybe some use what was called a “nom de plume”, but not everyone. I had two letters published in the NZ Herald and a local newspaper (on different topics/different times) and I used my full name. My husband has just had two letters published in the local newspaper and has used his full name. His letters give information on a local problem and how to deal with it.

Yet, here we are on the internet, corresponding with people, among 100′s of millions, on the other side of the planet sometimes, and everybody seems so bloody scared. Chris Pine may have some *legitimate fears, given that he has become a public figure, but what about the rest of us?

It’s all rather confusing…and sad.

*Except when he decides to get behind the wheel of a car – after how many drinks was it again? He should not be drinking alcohol. He should not be driving. He needs to earn the trust back of other sensible and considerate road users. This is a public concern.

Part of me feels I should apologize for my *ramblings* but another part says – Nah!

731. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

PS It is now 12.08am, Thursday, 3 April, in Auckland, NZ.

Nightie night all!

732. Who cares - April 2, 2014

@Keachick. For gods sake woman he just got a frikin DUI, he didn’t hit anyone with his car, he didn’t cause any property damage, and there are only a minority of US states that suspend a drivers license for a DUI, and even then it has to be a DUI comitted in that state, not another US state, not another country. If Chris was driving in LA then I am quite sure he was driving legally. According to the news reports even his NZ drivers license is only suspended temporarily. Chris has not and will not ever have to go to court in the US for a DUI in NZ, not happening ever, and it wouldn’t for anyone, of any economic level, that is just ridiculous.

733. crazydaystrom - April 2, 2014

730. Keachick (Rose)

“Part of me feels I should apologize for my *ramblings* but another part says – Nah!”

Haha! That’s the spirit Keachick! :-)

Btw, I’m Nathan in Charleston, SC. I’m an longtime fan since TOS first season. I think somewhere along the line I’ve mentioned all those facts here. I think.

734. Red Dead Ryan - April 2, 2014

Good to see Keachick still obsessing over Chris Pine again. I was getting worried there for a second.

That space app sounds cool.

735. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#722. Marja – April 1, 2014

Isn’t it obvious? The next planet Enterprise heads for is THE planet of the Apes that Pierre originally wrote about. Thus spreading production costs across two productions while allowing simultaneous filming of both.

736. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 730. Keachick (Rose) – April 2, 2014

” I recall suggesting a while ago that everyone reveal their real first names. My suggestion was clearly ignored.”

My first name is Ahmed from Calgary, Canada.

737. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 735. Disinvited – April 2, 2014

“#722. Marja – April 1, 2014

Isn’t it obvious? The next planet Enterprise heads for is THE planet of the Apes that Pierre originally wrote about. Thus spreading production costs across two productions while allowing simultaneous filming of both.”

Brilliant!

738. Cygnus-X1 - April 2, 2014

728. Keachick (Rose) – April 1, 2014

I’m sensing perhaps some love lost between you and Chris Pine (though obviously only in one direction). Have you now ceased being a “Pine-nut?”

739. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 718. Marja, aka Dr Phyllida – April 1, 2014

” Or perhaps it’s a personality disorder that could “demand” he change people’s opinions to agree with his, no matter what it took. There seemed to be a cycle: the sockpuppetry, followed days later by calmer posts, then posts that showed he’d got riled up again.”

Yeah, the guy sure got some issues to come up with all that just to defends his personal views.

“I am grateful to Matt for monitoring, and frankly feel, with all due respect to AP, that Matt — who can’t check in as often — seems to do a better job than AP did on “keeping down the creepy.” IMHO.”

Agreed.

740. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@734. Red Dead Ryan

So RDR, no comment from you yet regrading the MJ revelations ? Perhaps you are still thinking that MJ & co are coming back ?

741. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#726. Vultan – April 1, 2014

Aps? Aps? We don’t need no stinkin’ aps! I recall very clearly while atop the Blue Ridge Mountains in Pennsylvania in the middle of the night in 1970 seeing the Telstar satellite about the size of a softball rotating with its solar panels glistening while traveling in its orbital arc. And years before that, while prepping my newspapers for delivery, seeing a comet with a tail that nearly reached across the entire pre-dawn sky.

And eclipses, in various manner of ken and locale through the years of my life and resorting to Almanacs. Those were the days…

Not that I don’t appreciate a fine ap.

742. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#730. Keachick (Rose) – April 2, 2014

This may be one of those things that is uniquely American and not easily understood by other cultures but in the early days of the American Revolution against King George, America’s Founding Fathers resorting to anonymous letters with pen names quite frequently to get their message across. Ben Franklin even wrote letters to the editor (himself) so he could make his points in reply. And this carried on into the politics of the young nation and its electioneering and wasn’t just limited to intellectual discourse. Frankly, I’m not sure some of those freely published letters of yore would be allowed to see the light of day in any modern day letters to the editor print publication or forum such as ours?

743. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#732. Who cares – April 2, 2014

Surely.you are aware of the movement that lead to harsher penalties for driving inebriated? You must be able to conceptualize that MADD very likely doesn’t take your view? Nor, would you expect people, such as myself, who have a family lineage riddled with alcoholism and experienced the results of alcohol fueled acts of others first hand, to be as lenient in their views?

One of my grandfathers was a functional alcoholic. In an example of that, he could manage to drive himself home drunk without killing anyone, but I wouldn’t have wanted any court in the land to go easy on him for that accomplishment. And in spite of that, he still manged to get himself arrested and convicted for bootlegging when alcohol was an illegal drug in the U.S..

744. Phil - April 2, 2014

@730 I’ve always been Phil, and have also provided a professional license number that, if Googled, pretty much lays bare all information available to the State of California, or what I’ve chosen to share publically
Google 0G82338 and see for yourself.

And if you live in California, I’d be happy to sell you some !n$ur@nce. Yeah, using that word gets you sucked into the filter.

745. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

#742, #743 – Thank you.

Who Cares – this is a matter of concern and it is not just about Chris Pine. If it were just about him, we could say “So what? That’s his business” but driving while being intoxicated becomes everyone’s business because of the potential danger that person may pose not just to themselves, but to anyone else in the vicinity. I cannot believe I am even having to say this, let alone, repeat it. He cannot be trusted in this respect – his arrest for being not just a wee bit over the .08 limit but quite a bit over proved that. This loss of trust applies to anyone, not just Chris Pine. It is that we know about it. I am sure he would rather keep it quiet, not have anyone know about it, but we do…

“Damn those papz and social media. Hate ‘em”. No *privacy*, nothing’s secret anymore and shut the f*ck up, Keachick” – CP. Eh, Chris – am I right?…:(

Perhaps it is because I could be a genuine “pinenut”. My better half has called some of my “obsessiveness” as being more in the line of being tenacious.

Alcohol abuse is a public issue, even more so than smoking per se is. Maybe we have lost the plot here a bit, need to get a better understanding on alcohol and smoking and see these issues in a more balanced way (ref. what seems to me to be excessively restrictive laws as regards smoking). Smoking does not make a person drunk, which, in turn impairs their judgement, cognitive functions etc.

If a person is drinking, they can’t be smoking. If a person is smoking, they can’t be drinking. In my limited experience, in yesteryear when smoking was OK in bars etc, I would see people my age smoke a lot more as they chatted and giggled than they would drink. Just me musing here…

746. Red Dead Ryan - April 2, 2014

I do think MJ will be back. By what Matt posted a few days ago, it sounds like he’s been suspended for awhile, not outright banned.

The others? I don’t know. But MJ would.

I seem to recall a while back Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle mentioning being female.

747. Phil - April 2, 2014

I suspect MJ will be welcomed back as well. The way Matt spoke, some he makes his penance and promises to behave it sounds like the suspension will be lifted.

I didn’t always agree with him, but was able to agree to disagree. That, and he was constantly a thorn in the side of the JJ haters, always a plus. Yeah, we both live in CA, and I’m not an alias.

748. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

Oh, and Hi to Nathan, Ahmed and Phil!

749. Khan was Framed! - April 2, 2014

This third film basically writes itself:

The Vulcans cannot maintain a healthy gene pool with the destruction of their home world, so they are forced to make peace with the Romulans to ensure the survival of their race.

This would obviously infuriate the Klingons, who are already gearing up for war with the Federation.

So you start off with a Romulan ship carrying a peace envoy to New Vulcan being attacked by Klingons in the Nuetral Zone right before it was to meet the Enterprise for an escort.

When they rescue several escape pods that make it over the border, Kirk & Spock find Sybock, Spock’s illogical half-brother who was sent as an Ambassador to Romulas by Sarek & Spock Prime.

Now we have external conflicts & internal confilcts as Spock’s loyalties are tested; War with the Klingons? Or let his people die out?

Writes itself.

750. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

In the spirit of my tenaciousness about certain things (they may vary), I have seen first hand what alcohol abuse by a pregnant woman can have on the baby.

We have come to know a couple. She is clearly a person who was born suffering from foetal alcohol syndrome. It has affected her mental abilities – *IQ approx. 85 and she has a multitude of health problems, which has included alcohol abuse. She was abandoned by her mother when she was about three. It seems that her mother preferred drunkenness over caring and being with her little girl.

She is now 40 but looks a lot older. Most of her life has seen her legs covered in psoriasis but those are the more obvious physical problems.

I am not making this up. Perhaps this is also why I appear to be a bit “obsessive” over these issues.

* Where the average IQ goes between 90 and 110/115

751. IDIC Lives! - April 2, 2014

@Matt Wright,
I have been a Trekker since the mid-70s, I campaigned for the first shuttle to be Enterprise, I campaigned to have ST:TMP made, I wrote early fan-fiction. I have been a professional writer for over 30 years and Trek was my inspiration.

I would like to give you my pov on the Comments Section of this site:

It is not just MJ and his sock puppets which keeps it less than it could be. When I first came here right as STID was to be released, there was a person with the moniker TUP and several others who gave amazing critiques on the characters, the dynamics, the spirit, the writing, the directing –all of the creative process–which made Original Trek a legend which just keeps going.

Several of us pointed to the Original canon when it seemed the new film was off the tracks and yet I (and others) looked forward to STID and improvements which could be made “next time.” We were respectful, we had ideas in keeping with Trek philosophy and canon, and it was an interesting site to visit.

And then the ubiquitous Keachick presented her way-off-the-tracks idea of a script for the next movie in which Kirk would hand “The Chair” to Spock, and skip at least part of the 5 year mission to make a nest on a research station with Carol Marcus and the as-yet non-existent David in the nu-universe. Keachick put forth her idea that Kirk could maybe manage the research station. Our reply that this simply WAS NOT TREK. Keachick responded that we were disgusting and intolerant.

Yes, Keachick has the right to her opinions. However, several people, including myself, calmly, intelligently pointed to the very core of Star Trek being Kirk as starship captain on a 5 year mission. When someone’s opinion is just ridiculous—? All good discussion was forgotten as we/I tried to explain why this idea was indeed ridiculous.

Yes, I got angrier as I was called names, dismissed, whined at by Keachick, so that she could leave her idea in tact, perhaps to submit, she said, to JJ or to someone. I thought, “My God, this couldn’t happen, what if they listen to her? ” After all, STID was already off the canon tracks in some ways but nothing like this absurd concept.

You must understand here what Trek means to us. To come on a site full of ideas and wanting to chat, and to have someone impose this absurdly-off-the-tracks idea not in one post but on and on and on and on. She would not present it and then be quiet.

I remember TUP losing patience and calling her “Stupid.” And of course he never heard the end of that one. She cried, she whined, she called names but somehow the names she called us, we were supposed to just tolerate. We were the bad guys.

TUP and the others are long gone. I only check in to see the new articles and quickly scan the comments – enough to know MJ had sock puppets. I made the comment several months ago that there are 4 or 5 people on the site, plus their sock puppets.

It is true, this is like walking into the high school lunch room. There are maybe 12 people who usually say something. Maybe 10.

Marja is one of them. She makes intelligent comments except, she defends Keachick like a lion defends his mate. She patrols me the few times I do reappear and reads the riot act, condescendingly saying I must act right. Not sure who made her the police.

Back to the days before the release oif STID: In the heat of the Kirk-nests-with Carol–Battle, Keachick called me “cruel and malevolent.” I HAD NEVER CALLED HER A NAME.

I was shocked. I had not expected to be “malevolent” – a word reserved for Hitler and maybe Admiral Marcus. She had called me names all along only because I set down a strong opinion against this bright idea of hers for the next movie. But she is Keachick so she can say these things, you see.

I was so shocked I changed my moniker to “The Malevolent One” and then disappeared from the site after one last comment. Marja of course was still ranting at me, saying I was no IDIC LIVES because I was mean to Keachick.

Yes, this is a silly rehash, Matt. But you look at this thread. Anyone with some good Trek ideas and comments is going to run away, because what is here?

Keachick preaching/languishing about Chris Pine
Sock puppet reprimand.
Keachick preaching/expressing DUI/Pine.
Marja and someone having a politcial discussion, a relief, and I’m with you, Marja, on that
Keachick again, Kirk with his pants off next movie? Gods, I hope not.
Keachick again, preaching against drinking, smoking

I don’t drink and I never smoked. Not the point. The point is:
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OF THIS ON A STAR TREK SITE.

Interspersed are a few comments from the old lunchroom gang who have grown incestuous. You need some new people to talk with! But no one wants to come.

A very few have been indulged, double-indulged, defended, apologized to by others. It is like there are untouchable commenters on this site who can go off on any tangent. Almost everyone else has had a battle with her, and then apologized to, and she is indulged some more.

Saving Chris Pine ain’t gonna happen by posting over and over on this site. And I doubt he needs saving. Goodness gracious, it was an end-of-filming party, get over it!

You can kick me off for this comment. Or probably not allow this comment in the first place. I repeat my original statement: There is more wrong with the dynamics of this Comment Section than MJ and his puppets. One consistent weakness is that one person is over-indulged and ubiquitous when she gets going on some off-track subject.

Marja, you can call me intolerant and very bad yet again. It simply is not true and I will NOT be checking your comments. As others have decided, this site is not for me, not worth the BS one goes through trying to have interesting conversation on STAR TREK.

752. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 746. Red Dead Ryan – April 2, 2014

“I do think MJ will be back. By what Matt posted a few days ago, it sounds like he’s been suspended for awhile, not outright banned.
The others? I don’t know. But MJ would.”

What others, there is only MJ, dude. I guess it is fine with you & perhaps you even agree with what he did!

@ 747. Phil – April 2, 2014

“I suspect MJ will be welcomed back as well.”

You are wrong & I guess from your post that you have no problem with the fact that MJ created all these other identities just to cause conflict & problem among us!

“That, and he was constantly a thorn in the side of the JJ haters, always a plus. Yeah, we both live in CA, and I’m not an alias.”

You should follow in his step then & create 10 more aliases to be “a thorn in the side of the JJ haters” as you put it.

753. B Kramer - April 2, 2014

746 RDR Can you explain why your posts were exactly like mj’s aka Mark Jensen from California for many many posts when you’re from Vancouver?

754. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

IDIC is the one who is an obsessive liar.

She keeps harping on about my suggestion, among others, about Kirk and Carol having a child and he being a TEMPORARY administrator on a planetary research station or something similar. If she had bothered to read further on just a little, I myself dismissed this idea and not because of her nasty rantings about how much she loves Star Trek and canon. I did not need her bitching criticisms to rethink my ideas. I was musing about possible stories, sub-plots, for chrissakes…just as others were doing but she went off her nut because the mere notion of Kirk/Carol parenthood for some reason, freaks her out so badly, so insanely.

As for canon, these stories are set in an alternative universe and each time a new story is told and portrayed on film, that then becomes canon. In other words, canon is not static and nor should it be.

I am sick of being picked on IDIC. I apologized for calling her malevolent but she can’t let it go. Instead she comes back some months later to rehash stuff that has been…

My story about Kirk in his magic underwear was a quip, based on other people’s imaginings of Enterprise making like a fish and crew having magic underwear. This was happening around 1 April – you know, April Fool’s Day.

Get a grip, IDIC!

755. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@753. B Kramer

“746 RDR Can you explain why your posts were exactly like mj’s aka Mark Jensen from California for many many posts when you’re from Vancouver?”

RDR was simply following his leader MJ.

Heck the guy is still defending MJ even after all these revelations & making up excuses like “I seem to recall a while back Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle mentioning being female.”

I guess that RDR probably miss getting help from the other “gang” members, K-7, Garak’s Pride, Dave H & the rest of MJ support group!

756. Red Dead Ryan - April 2, 2014

B Kramer,

No, I’m not from Vancouver. I live in Victoria, on Vancouver Island which is next to Vancouver, which itself is on the west coast of the mainland.

Also, my posts weren’t like MJ’s. His often included a fair number of typos.

I happen to be a better speller. :-)

Is this good enough for you? Or are you just looking for a fight?

Ahmed,

I actually don’t really care about MJ’s sockpuppeting. It really doesn’t concern me. Not one bit. And you’ve got to admit though, it was quite a show!

757. Red Dead Ryan - April 2, 2014

I haven’t defended MJ, Ahmed, had you bothered reading my posts. I merely surmised that Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle may have been a genuine person, not a sockpuppet.

Fact is, none of us know who the sockpuppets were. Everyone is just guessing. Only Matt and MJ knows for sure. And I think its this fact that is eating away at Ahmed, B Kramer, and a few others here.

This is just driving you up the wall, isn’t it, Ahmed? :-)

758. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@756. Red Dead Ryan

“I actually don’t really care about MJ’s sockpuppeting. It really doesn’t concern me. Not one bit. And you’ve got to admit though, it was quite a show!”

Go figure! I’m not surprised at all by that.

759. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

edit: “…being picked on BY IDIC…”

760. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@757. Red Dead Ryan

“Fact is, none of us know who the sockpuppets were. Everyone is just guessing. Only Matt and MJ knows for sure. And I think its this fact that is eating away at Ahmed, B Kramer, and a few others here.

This is just driving you up the wall, isn’t it, Ahmed? :-)”

Nope, we can all figure out who were the other puppets. What really surprised me that you are not one of them. After all, you sounds a lot like one of his puppets.

761. B Kramer - April 2, 2014

757 Very funny RDR / Mr Knowles. No it’s not eating us and the main players are obvious.

762. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

Well, for the record, I don’t need to sockpuppet. It seems that me just being me, Keachick, is more than enough for some people. Touche…:(

“one person is over-indulged and ubiquitous when she gets going on some off-track subject.”

What – and not those who had the discussion about GOP, the virtues or otherwise of various US presidents, ACA, not to mention, much earlier the discussion about 9/11 conspiracies etc etc, as well as the discussion about religion and politics in the modern 21st century world. I don’t know, but they seem to be “going on some off-track subject”.

I have to ask seriously just what of real interest, relevance has IDIC contributed to this site this year. She has posted twice, I believe, and both times, they have been to misquote one poster and criticize another. If I didn’t know better, I could think that IDIC was trolling just coming here to yank chains and be nasty and provocative.

763. Marja - April 2, 2014

Rose, et. al., I am, really, Marja, from North Florida. I don’t reveal my town b/c it’s small enough for people to discover my real identity, and I don’t let that out on the internet. No insult intended to anyone.

Re your 754, fer godsake don’t interact. I haven’t words to describe the anger, but I am resisting.

764. dmduncan - April 2, 2014

Well, if JM is welcomed, it will be to a near total loss of credibility, which he will not regain without the sort of contrition and humility that I think it is difficult for MJ to find. This is not apologizing to one person for an honest mistake.

Using a mob of 8 aliases to try and bully so many people on a STAR TREK BLOG, of all places, into silence? That’s comically deranged.

If you can’t make an argument on your own — without fake personalities creating the illusion that you have popular (and REAL) support — then you can’t make an argument.

MJ has been a baaad boy, and he deserves a long time out before he’s allowed to socialize with others again.

And I applaud Matt for doing some Sheriff-ing around here once more. Now I don’t have to scroll past so much manufactured drama in almost every thread to find comments that are interesting.

765. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@763. dmduncan

Well said.

“Now I don’t have to scroll past so much manufactured drama in almost every thread to find comments that are interesting.”

Yep

766. Phil - April 2, 2014

@752. Well, you would be guessing wrong. I do place some value on redemption and if he’s convinced Matt of the error of his ways, is contrite, and promises to behave he should be allowed to return. Let’s keep some perspective here, this is a Trek message board, not Conclave. We aren’t electing a new flippin Pope here…

There was a stretch here when I was a bit more abrasive then I am now, and when that was pointed out I’ve made the attempt to be more civil. It was MJ that pointed that out, so I have no issue in returning the favor. I doubt there are many here qualified to cast the first stone….

767. dmduncan - April 2, 2014

Well that’s enough about that. I hope that MJ really does regret what he did, and that he gets the sort of self-consciousness out of this episode that will help him avoid doing it again in the future.

Getting busted could end up being a very positive development in his life. I hope he takes the opportunity.

768. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 765. Phil – April 2, 2014

“Let’s keep some perspective here, this is a Trek message board, not Conclave. We aren’t electing a new flippin Pope here…”

Sure, this is not a federal case after all, right ? :-)

769. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

Still no news about ST 13!

770. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

Re – my post #720 -

For some reason, these impeccable sources are now informing me that whatever malfunction is occurring on the Enterprise to cause Captain Kirk to be only in his magical underwear, is now affecting the ship’s first officer, chief medical officer, communications officer and engineering/weapon’s officer. Whatever clothing they attempt to put on simply disintegrates. They feel quite fine, other than not being able to wear anything other than the underwear.

It is also being reported that part of the underwear is beginning to disintegrate, leaving these five people wearing what could best be described as G-string magical underwear.

Being the totally professional crew that are stationed on the Enterprise, work continues as usual with only the slightest gentle, wistful grins appearing on faces of crew who see or know about the anomalous attire of these five officers.

Scotty is still non-plussed and has resorted to seeking out his non-synthehol brew from the bowels of the Budgineering section of the Enterprise.

That’s all I have. These sources can be a little unpredictable but I can vouch for their honest reliable rumour-sharing. Indeed, they are able to put fact to shame…

Bob Orci – Are you getting this? I hope so. You need to.
Good man!

771. Phil - April 2, 2014

@751. Wow, you’ve been doing a slow burn over this for ten months? That ain’t healthy!

772. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#763. dmduncan – April 2, 2014

As near as I can determine, MJ’s last posts were directed at B Kramer and Cygnus X-1. I suppose it is some sort of badge of honor to have had their well reasoned responses to his determined to be so threatening as to need a 9 poster majority to dispel their points and make his palatable?

773. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 769. Keachick (Rose) – April 2, 2014

“It is also being reported that part of the underwear is beginning to disintegrate, leaving these five people wearing what could best be described as G-string magical underwear.”

LOL, that sounds a lot like Bertram Chandler’s story “The Cage”. If you didn’t read it yet, you should do so.

Here is the synopsis from Wikipedia:

“In his ironic short story “The Cage”, a band of shipwrecked humans wandering naked in the jungles of a faraway planet are captured by aliens and placed in a zoo, where, failing in all their efforts to convince their captors that they are intelligent, some are dissected. Eventually they become resigned to captivity and adopt a small local rodent as a pet, placing him in a wicker cage. Seeing this, their captors apologise for the mistake and repatriate them to Earth, remarking that “only intelligent creatures put other creatures in cages.””

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._Bertram_Chandler#Writings

774. Vultan - April 2, 2014

I guess MJ was just practicing his own backward version of IDIC.
Different [key]strokes for different folks.

775. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#769. Keachick (Rose) – April 2, 2014

Re: my 742

You are welcome.

Re: my 742

You are welcome.

Re: Rumors

And I thank you very much for returning altUhura to the underwearer scenes she so rightfully earned as first female member of the future crew to disrobe in the 2009 effort. Preceded only by the male future crew member, Kirk, himself, who you already un…err….addressed.

As for Carol, the jury’s still out as to whether she was ever legally adopted by Kirk as a member of his crew as Pike did for him?.

776. Vultan - April 2, 2014

Though maybe it’s best we stop talking about him. I’m sure it’s feeding into that massive, Shatnerian ego of his… and his… and his… and his…

777. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@775. Vultan

“Though maybe it’s best we stop talking about him. I’m sure it’s feeding into that massive, Shatnerian ego of his… and his… and his… and his…”

Yep, lets not waste more time on the puppetmaster.

778. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

Wasn’t it always MJ who was going on about FatShat and putting William Shatner any time that he could?

Wow – still trying to get my head around this revelation…

#774 – You are welcome also. The next movie will prove to be a truly awesome sight. I can already hear the ka-ching of tills at the gyms – though there is no need to overdo it now, peoples…CP, ZQ, KU, ZD, AE!

At the end of STID, Carol turned up as a member of the crew. Kirk welcomed her aboard and she replied that it was nice to have a family again.

779. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

Apologies to Zoe Saldana – I meant to write ZS.

780. dmduncan - April 2, 2014

Funny stuff here, man. And remember: Redemption comes AFTER the penance, not before.

So is Bob involved with El Rey?

I’m really digging From Dusk Till Dawn. It’s good. Watching it right now. That one dude does a pretty good Clooney bobblehead impression.

And oh! I didn’t think there was another woman on the planet who could follow Salma Hayek, but whoever that woman is they cast in her role, she’s doing it.

781. dmduncan - April 2, 2014

Or should it be bobbleheaded Clooney impression?

782. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 779. dmduncan – April 2, 2014

“So is Bob involved with El Rey?”

Yep, he & Alex are producing a new CIA series called ‘Matador’, I posted a link to the THR report at #678

“I’m really digging From Dusk Till Dawn. It’s good. Watching it right now. That one dude does a pretty good Clooney bobblehead impression.”

Great, I’ve the series on Netflix but didn’t watch it yet.

783. Vultan - April 2, 2014

Wow…

http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574896/nasa-suspends-contracts-with-russia

Ever see “2010″?
The movie, not the year. We all saw that.

784. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#777. Keachick (Rose) – April 2, 2014

Good, then the underwear triad is complete. We have a movie poster people!

785. Curious Cadet - April 2, 2014

@763. dmduncan,
“Well, if MJ is welcomed, it will be to a near total loss of credibility”

LOL, that’s the other one I forgot –

1) Fact!
2) I Agree with MJ!
2) Case Closed!
3) I demand you apologize!
4) You have lost all credibility here!

Oh the irony.

786. Disinvited - April 2, 2014

#737. Ahmed – April 2, 2014

For further confirmation, we need only look to the bottom of this page:

“TrekMovie.com is represented by Gorilla Nation.”

CASE CLOSED!

787. Ahmed - April 2, 2014

@ 785. Disinvited – April 2, 2014

“#737. Ahmed – April 2, 2014
For further confirmation, we need only look to the bottom of this page:
“TrekMovie.com is represented by Gorilla Nation.”
CASE CLOSED!”

LOL, I never noticed that Gorilla thing until now :)

“CASE CLOSED”, LOL I loved it

788. B Kramer - April 2, 2014

782 Vultan & Guys:

Speaking of Hal 9000:

http://profile.yahoo.com/G2KOHTH6FXUCTQS25SQ77VWJVA
This is of course the evil Hal (Be sure to scroll down)

http://disqus.com/yahoo-G2KOHTH6FXUCTQS25SQ77VWJVA/

https://twitter.com/maj_10000

789. Keachick (Rose) - April 2, 2014

#784 – Would that not be the “magical underwear quintet”? Yes, indeed, a real movie poster – sources say that is a distinct possibility. Can only get better.

You are very welcome to one and all.

790. B Kramer - April 2, 2014

788 Forgot to add this is the more devious version Hal9000mj.

791. Phil - April 2, 2014

@783. I wonder when NASA is going to break the news to Richard Mastracchio that he’s going to need to find his own ride home from the ISS…

792. dmduncan - April 2, 2014

783. Vultan – April 2, 2014

2010…2010…

Aah, yes, the year after ST (2009)…

That was The Year of Posting Dangerously.

793. dmduncan - April 2, 2014

The El Rey network is cool. I like how they’re marketing it.

794. Cygnus-X1 - April 2, 2014

751. IDIC Lives! – April 2, 2014

One of the two guide rules that I try to adhere to here is:

Don’t tell people what to say (or not to say).

The whole point of this comment section is for people to express themselves—primarily about Trek-related issues, but of course there’s bound to be digression as in regular in-person conversation.

I think that I adhere to this rule pretty well. Even as bad as MJ and his sockpuppets got with all of their bullying and trying to oppress dissenting opinions, I don’t think that I ever told him what to say or to go away or to shut up. I could be wrong about that, but I don’t think that I did. If I did, it was very rare.

It’s unrealistic to expect that everyone here will be talking about what you feel like talking about. But there’s nothing stopping you from scrolling quickly past posts which don’t look interesting or which have been contributed by posters whose remarks you tend not to appreciate. And when you see a comment that you do find worthwhile, there’s nothing stopping you from rejoining it and the discussion related to it. The worst thing about MJ was that he did try to prevent people from discussing certain topics and expressing certain types of opinions.

But, now that he’s gone, I don’t see anyone else here who might be a barrier to your joining in or starting a discussion about whatever Trek-related issue interests you. Neither do I see off-topic discussion as any barrier to your posting on-topic. On the contrary, I think it’s more likely that people will rejoin your Trek-related posts than off-topic posts.

So, go ahead and talk Trek. No one is stopping you, and you might find yourself attracting less frequent posters as well as regulars to your remarks.

If you don’t find Keachick’s Pine obsession remotely interesting—and I would not blame you for feeling that way—then just scroll right past it. If you post something interesting related to Trek, your comment will likely be prioritized by most posters over the majority of off-topic discussion.

795. Cygnus-X1 - April 3, 2014

764. dmduncan – April 2, 2014

I agree with you 100%.

I would also add that, even in MJ’s email to Marja that she posted, it was clear that MJ’s attitude here was, at its core, combative. To him, this is a battlezone—Us vs. Them, JJ haters vs. JJ fans, Right vs. Wrong, the Majority vs. the Minority, and whatever other factions might be construed out of various differences of opinion on any given day. Even in that email he expressed regret that Phil and RDR would now have to battle against “the JJ haters” without his help. It doesn’t seem like that kind of an attitude is something that will just disappear. If he did come back, he’d be fuming out the ears and biting his tongue in half, at best, trying to suppress his urges to beat down and drive out the JJ haters and various other infidels like he used to do.

796. Cygnus-X1 - April 3, 2014

785. Curious Cadet – April 2, 2014

HA!

The apology demand was by far the most bizarre of them all, in that his sockpuppets would all emulate such a weird, passive/aggressive self-righteousness. It used to just dumbfound me. One person being ridiculous like that—OK, people have their own idiosyncrasies—but when the sockpuppets would all do it, it was a strange thing to behold indeed.

797. Phil - April 3, 2014

@794. Don’t tell people what to say (or not to say)….

Disclaimer: Depending on the topic, results may vary.

798. Curious Cadet - April 3, 2014

@796. Cygnus-X1,
“One person being ridiculous like that—OK, people have their own idiosyncrasies—but when the sockpuppets would all do it, it was a strange thing to behold indeed.”

It’s a classic herd pile-on mob mentality. Another irony, as MJ often railed against “group-think” yet he created his own group to think just like himself.

Is it any wonder a specific few left behind in MJ’s wake were thought to be his sock puppets? How sad to wake up and find the majority you thought you were accepted into turns out to be a lone often irrational voice, making many of your own contributions just as ridiculous by their isolation. There’s safety in numbers — quite a different thing when you’re the only guy parroting the bully; would some of these few people have been as antagonistic and myopic without a herd of devotees steamrolling their way over an unsuspecting dissenter?

I have a friend with Asperger’s, who often falls into mimicking the behavior of the most dominant person in the room, through no fault of his own. Sometimes I have to tell him to back off when the alpha happens to be a jerk. It’s a security mechanism, and makes him feel accepted, when often he is just used as a tool of a skillful manipulator to control the room. It’s sad and I hate to see my friend fall into such a social trap. But I think it’s much worse when a person does it of their own unimpaired volition.

799. Disinvited - April 3, 2014

#794. Cygnus-X1 – April 2, 2014

But in telling IDIC that aren’t you telling her or him what NOT to say?

You aren’t Cygnus. Your collision with X1 as changed your primary function.

Your logic is…FAULTY….FAULTY…

#783. Vultan – April 2, 2014

Double dipped: Beta and DVD.

#795. Cygnus-X1 – April 3, 2014

FWIW in my years of interacting with MJ, I often viewed his posting style as a veteran of flame wars hewned by more than few engagements before he found his way here. He seemed to so often fall back on standard flame warring techniques when he did not like having some assertion challenged.

800. Ahmed - April 3, 2014

Aliens are coming!

========================================
Bill Clinton hopes when aliens visit Earth ‘it’s not like ‘Independence Day’

The former President admitted if aliens “visited someday, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

“I just hope it’s not like ‘Independence Day,’” he joked to ABC’s Jimmy Kimmel Wednesday night, predicting extraterrestrial visitors might actually help quell bipartisan tension in Washington.

“Think of how all the differences among the Earth would seems small if we felt threatened by a space invader,” he wondered.

The 42nd President assured viewers though that there is not a government conspiracy to cover up an alien invasion, explaining how during his administration his staff reviewed records on Area 51, the Nevada military testing center, and Roswell, the New Mexico site of a purported UFO sighting.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/bill-clinton-universe-article-1.1744087

801. Disinvited - April 3, 2014

#680. marja – March 31, 2014

Well, FWIW I don’t believe the series ever clearly asserted Comet’s sex. In reality Comet was actually about 4-6 horses. The beauty horse was Sparky, a male, that set the iconic look that all the others were made up to emulate. Thanks, you gave an excuse to rewatch BRISCO to see if and how many times Brisco referred to his horse with a masculine appellation. My inkling is that it was male but I have to know for certain.

meanwhile:

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/study-movies-with-women-in-prominent-roles-earn-more-money-1201151474/

Paramount has every reason to place Uhura more prominently in their movies. Dare we say “Even the Captain’s chair?”

802. Cygnus-X1 - April 3, 2014

799. Disinvited – April 3, 2014

But in telling IDIC that aren’t you telling her or him what NOT to say?

I’m offering a suggestion not making a demand or trying to stifle him. He can do whatever he likes, but the opinion that I am offering is that he would have a better time simply talking Trek, if that’s what he’d like to do, than trying to govern the discussions had by others. I realize that I used colloquial phrasing.

803. TrekMadeMeWonder - April 3, 2014

” 737. Ahmed – April 2, 2014

@ 735. Disinvited – April 2, 2014

“#722. Marja – April 1, 2014

Isn’t it obvious? The next planet Enterprise heads for is THE planet of the Apes that Pierre originally wrote about. Thus spreading production costs across two productions while allowing simultaneous filming of both.”

Brilliant!”

And yet the IRS STILL chases after the Tea Parties?!

- Matt

804. Who cares - April 3, 2014

@Keachick. How in the world did you so completely miss my point? Your supposed response to me has so very, very little to do with what I said that it is literally impossible for me to believe that you actually read what I wrote.

In the simplest terms, I read a rant from you about Chris Pine driving himself to a restaurant for a meeting with Bad Robot, then driving himself again when he left, with you assuming (and therefore making an a– of yourself, because that is what assumptions do) that he had consumed alcoholic beverages while at the restaurant, despite the absolute impossibility of you knowing what he consumed. You also stated that it was “disturbing in the extreme” that he was allowed to drive after his DUI in NZ.

I didn’t even get into the ridiculous nature of your first assumption before, I will go over that now. I work in a restaurant that serves alcohol. I can drink for free at the end of my shift anytime I want to. I have not had a single drop of alcohol in over a decade. When I was a child my parents took us to Pizza Hut every month (the Book It program, I got free pizza every single time). Pizza Hut, at least in the US, serves Beer, my parents never ordered any. Just like any person is not required to order alcohol just because the restaurant serves it. So unless you were sitting at Chris Pine’s table and watched him drink alcoholic beverages you have no possible idea if he had a single drop, and you never will.

Aside from that, like I said before there is no state in the United States that ever has or ever will suspend or revoke a person’s driver’s license for a no victim no property damage DUI. Even your own NZ courts only suspended Chris’s NZ license for 6 months, they have no legal rights to do anything to his American license, and while 6 months is quite excessive for the circumstances I suppose it fits in with a nation that felt a single line in 2 plus hour movie (Argo, “The Kiwis turned em away”) was worth having a national conniption fit over.

Drunk Driving may be a problem, but I am pretty sure it is more widespread, per capita, in NZ that the US. I know that here in the US DUI/DWI numbers dropped 63 percent among those drivers over 21 between the years of 1991 and 2012. In New Zealand during that same period drunk driving arrests averaged 30,000 a month. In the US in 2010 there were a total of 1.4 million people arrested for DUI for the entire united states.

Now the US population, according to the 2010 census, is roughly 313 million people, so that 1.4 million DUI arrests is less than 1 percent of the population. New Zealand has a population of 4.4 million (roughly) so then 30,000 people a month times 12 months equals 360, 000 people a year arrested for DUI. When compared to the total population of the country it is easy to see that drunk driving is a lot bigger problem, per capita, for NZ that the US. So how about you worry about your country and let us worry about ours.

805. Who cares - April 3, 2014

Sorry small correction to my last post.

I said that no US state would suspend or revoke a driver’s license for a DUI that does not involve injuries or property damage, and what I meant was that they won’t suspend or revoke someone’s license for such DUI in ANOTHER COUNTRY, they will suspend you if you do it here. Was typing too fast there.

806. Curious Cadet - April 3, 2014

@802. Cygnus-X1,
“the opinion that I am offering is that he would have a better time simply talking Trek, if that’s what he’d like to do, than trying to govern the discussions had by others.”

Exactly. Good advice. So much of those endless debates attempting to control the discussion just ate away at the refresh time on the screen, especially on a mobile device, and ground away at any discussion of the actual subject at hand.

Again the irony is thick here in that MJ and his “cronies” complained about STID “haters” coming onto a movie thread only to complain about it, yet he would routinely go onto a TNG, ENT, or fan production thread and become the hater himself, like he wasn’t getting enough of a fight on the STID threads managing a group assault of 8 aliases on an unsuspecting dissenter. Like so much of the recent revelations, it made no sense.

We would all be wise to skip over posts we’re not interested in, and ignore those who make no sense rather than engaging them in fruitless debate. I simply disengaged from interacting with MJ when it became clear he wasn’t interested in understanding my point. I made the mistake of taking on an alias or two before I got wise and figured out they were all him. Finally I just began skipping over any posts with those 8 usernames. Not that this forum is rife with sock puppets, but certainly there are some who simply are looking to antagonize rather than debate. So let them have their say, because trying to shut them down is exactly what they are looking for, just like MJ was clearly trolling for people to shut down.

807. Disinvited - April 3, 2014

#805. Who cares – April 3, 2014

You might want to make an addendum about U.S. courts or at least the government going to that extreme and beyond for non-citizens. I just caught a news snippet about some prominent in the U.S. foodie lady, Nigella [TASTE], having her whole U.S. enterpise/franchise gummed up just because of a recent interview on the Tellie she did in England where she admitted she had once done drugs.

There’s probably more to the story but it seemed clear she wasn’t convicted or arrested for this so not even a DUI arrest or conviction. And the significance of this is to Trek is that several of the new crew of actors aren’t U.S. citizens and it appears they better keep on their toes about such things.

808. Disinvited - April 3, 2014

#802. Cygnus-X1,

Thanks for the elucidation and the excellent advice.

809. Buzz Cagney - April 3, 2014

I am surprised to see those that have doubts about JJ described as ‘haters’.
The simple fact is that there is no shortage of people that feel Abrams movies, particularly Into Darkness, are simply not very good and don’t stand too much scrutiny. Its not a reason to hate him but I think it is fair to point out the shortcomings, of which there were many and glaring.
He has the ball for at least one more Trek movie and its down to us to demand he does better. Simply rehashing past Trek’s is a con. Jeez, he even rehashed much of ’09 in Darkness, and that isn’t good enough,
Demand better.

810. Keachick (Rose) - April 3, 2014

#804 Who Cares
What are you talking about? Re-read my post #728 -
“I see that Chris Pine is driving his car – solo…The fact that he was driving to the Chateau Marmont, a hotel/restaurant that is well known for selling expensive wines (with or without a meal) kind of adds “injury to insult”.”

You made the comment about some meeting with Bad Robot at the Chateau Marmont Restaurant. That was NOT mine. I had no idea why Chris Pine was there, other than to presumably enjoy the fine cuisine and finer wines, which the Chateau Marmont of West Hollywood is well known for. Google it. It comes with a map ‘n’ all…sigh…

As well, I, Keachick (Rose), was the one to inform others of the outcome of the Court case here in NZ – stating conviction and disqualification from driving for SIX months. I never said that he was not allowed to drive ever again and frankly I don’t know what you are on about.

My understanding is that the law does not allow for that person to drive any vehicle, irrespective of what they may or may not have eaten or drunk. And yes, countries do take note of whatever convictions etc a person may have, especially when it comes to a country providing visitor visas etc.

811. Captain Slow - April 4, 2014

Before it was confirmed that MJ was sock-puppeting I’d seen some people saying that it was unlikely because he’d be bound to slip up at some point. Well if you read the comments in the article about the first STC vignette when the 4×3 vs. 16×9 argument started, you’ll see that a lot of it was MJ vs. DiscoSpock. But in the Lolani thread they were in complete agreement. Could it be that he forgot which aliases were supposed to be on his side?

812. Marja - April 4, 2014

809 Buzz, “having doubts” and condemning and calling those of us who liked, even loved parts of, the JJ movies, are two different things. Not that you did this, I’m just saying I didn’t like my intelligence insulted because I “like movies made for dummies.”

806 Curious, “So much of those endless debates attempting to control the discussion just ate away at the refresh time on the screen, especially on a mobile device, and ground away at any discussion of the actual subject at hand.”

That is one reason I have decided to no longer engage with the individual Cygnus was encouraging at #802. Drove me nuts and angered me with passionate, combative “knight errantry”. To the point of boiling mad. And it was a case of “WINNING” an argument, not coming to a draw. Jaysis on a popsicle stick.

813. I am not Herbert - April 4, 2014

9/11 and other lies

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/04/03/357016/americans-are-blinded-by-agendas/

814. Keachick (Rose) - April 4, 2014

#805 – “that they won’t suspend or revoke someone’s license for such DUI in ANOTHER COUNTRY, they will suspend you if you do it here.”

#807 – “I just caught a news snippet about some prominent in the U.S. foodie lady, Nigella [TASTE], having her whole U.S. enterpise/franchise gummed up just because of a recent interview on the Tellie she did in England where she admitted she had once done drugs.”

Can anyone not see the damnable, arrogant hypocrisy here?

Nigella has never been charged and convicted of anything yet her business get screwed, but an American citizen can put his life and/or others at real risk of injury or death and is charged and convicted for doing so, but can do what he likes back home (in the US), because well, the welfare and safety of people in other countries don’t really matter at all and nor do their laws count for anything. He never got sentenced to doing prison time or anything.

This issue is not just about Chris Pine per se. It might explain though the way some of the US/UK media reported the incident as in going on about “hot and sexy” he looked as he came out of the court and remarking on the styling of his denim outfit…Ye gods…there is nothing hot and sexy about being convicted with a DUI. The Judge said that it was not a movie set, yet some of the media seemed to have treated the incident as it were just that. Of course, Chris could say, as he left, that it was going to be OK. My God!

The attitude stinks!

On top of that, you only had to go on some US gossip sites, to see that not much was said about the incident, but instead the morons quickly went back to their “regular programme” of going on about Chris’s closet gayness and his “beards”, or his not being gay but does whores ie about what THEY think is really going in his sex life (without any evidence).

People sure have a f*cked up view of what is actually private (ie none of their goddamn business) and what is public.

Yes, I am ranting a little, but that is because I am pissed off with the kind of attitude I see being expressed. Not so much obsessed but more in the way of being tenacious about what I see as something being not right/being off and needing to say so!

815. Disinvited - April 4, 2014

#809 Buzz, 812. Marja – April 4, 2014

I can only speak to my own experience. I said upfront that I enjoyed much of the entertainment products JJ and co. produced. I said I found their 2009 effort a good, B type science-fiction film that I thrilled to in my youth. Unfortunately, I voiced that it didn’t find it very much of a STAR TREK and I wouldn’t categorize it as one in explaining about it to non-fans in my circles who were considering going to see it but I would say that it was an entertaining popcorn sci-fi action film. I did however note that I didn’t think they’d get much about what made Trek a phenomenon from it.

For that, I was excoriated and labelled a hater.

For even the most non-hater comment such as something along the lines of, “I applaud JJ’s dedication to committing his work to 35mm film but most raving about it are paying premium prices to not view it in this, the form of his true artistic vision, which he proudly globetrotted.”, that hater scarlet letter would be trotted out

As you can surmise my nick reflects this.

And God forbid, I or anyone else should defend TMP against unflattering groundless publicity hype of the 1980s or 2000s.

Marja, as you can probably guess from our interactions, I easily commiserate with your having to endure the mirror of this.

I am however a bit surprised that as I have many times noted that my first favorable memory of Leonard Nimoy was watching and enjoying ZOMBIES OF THE STRATOSPHERE as a youth, that I have never taken a hit similar to yours for that. Gives me pause to consider the possible youthfulness of those attacks?

816. Disinvited - April 4, 2014

#811. Captain Slow – April 4, 2014

It is difficult to know how far to go in responding to this. Matt elaborated, in a more appropriate forum, which further disquieted me about MJ’s actions, but I’m not sure any forum, including that one, would welcome being dedicated to MJ’s rule breaking subterfuges.

I will say this, that I am probably the only one still posting here qualified to address his rehabilitation as a JJ standard bearer.

I remind people that MJ, and not Ahmed, immediately followed by myself were the first here to pop Bob Orci’s cork.

817. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@816. Disinvited

“I remind people that MJ, and not Ahmed, immediately followed by myself were the first here to pop Bob Orci’s cork.”

Yep & then when Bob said back in September that he is leaving Trekmovie, MJ was up in tears & declared that he is also leaving in solidarity with his good friend Bob, forgetting to mention that he is leaving behind 8 other aliases to carry on as his attack dogs!!

And when Bob came back, guess what ? MJ was back in less than 5 minutes with his GRAND RETURN handle, the guy was clearly a lunatic.

818. Keachick (Rose) - April 4, 2014

I guess I was not the only one this MJ and his merry band managed to upset/piss off over time.

Then again, MJ is still receiving attention he obviously so desperately seeks…one way or another.

819. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@ 818. Keachick (Rose) – April 4, 2014

“I guess I was not the only one this MJ and his merry band managed to upset/piss off over time.”

Well, that a$$hole made it very hard to have any kind of civil discussion among the fans here with his constant aggression & attacks on anyone who disagree with him, in the process some people stopped coming here to avoid all that headache.

820. Curious Cadet - April 4, 2014

@812. Marja,
“And it was a case of “WINNING” an argument, not coming to a draw. Jaysis on a popsicle stick.”

It’s the sad old joke: “I can’t come to bed yet, somebody on the Internet is wrong”.

MJ was clearly obsessed with winning, regardless of tactics. Sometimes I would get caught up following a thread MJ was manipulating, and shake my head at how ridiculous he was coming off in it, despite his loud protestations of how reasonable and intelligent he was being. It was enough to know any reasonable person would likewise realize this. Many of his posts and those of the other aliases were often the height of comedy, and he came off as an ignorant buffoon the more agitated he became. Yet speaking to your point, somehow there was never any end to willing victims prepared to spend hours and days in these juvenile arguments — come to think of it, he may have even waged a few of these arguments with himself in hopes of drawing others into taking sides.

821. Captain Slow - April 4, 2014

@ 820 Curious Cadet

“come to think of it, he may have even waged a few of these arguments with himself in hopes of drawing others into taking sides.”

I’m pretty sure that’s what happened with the STC inconsistency I mentioned earlier. He forgot that DiscoSpock wasn’t supposed to agree with him.

822. Phil - April 4, 2014

I’m not defending sockpuppeting, but since AP abandoned ship, there’s been a fair amount of it going on, and not just perpetuated by the late great MJ. At best, that makes a lot of the whining going on now about it disingenous, as the folks who constantly harp on how horrible JJ Trek is are going on like there was only one individual, MJ,who was the proponent – now that he’s discreditied it’s open season on new Trek.

There’s plenty to be critical about in the new universe, to be sure. However, there are a substantial number of new people out there who like the direction it’s going, understanding that Bad Robot resurrected a dead film franchise, and turned it into something that people who have never been to a convention want to see. That said, there are plenty of defenders of new Trek here, and for those with a fondness for reinventing TOS, there’s the fan film threads. If it’s a tongue bath you’re looking for that’s the place for you.

823. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@ 822. Phil – April 4, 2014

“I’m not defending sockpuppeting, but since AP abandoned ship, there’s been a fair amount of it going on, and not just perpetuated by the late great MJ.”

Are you aware of other people who made up 8 aliases like your dear friend ? If you do, please enlighten us.

“At best, that makes a lot of the whining going on now about it disingenous,”

“whining”, where did I heard that term before ? ah, it was “the late great MJ” & his cronies who love to label any critics as whining & haters.

It sure looks like you are “not defending sockpuppeting” !

824. Phil - April 4, 2014

@823. You protest to much, my friend. If you are of the opinion that because a proponent of the new franchise has been discredited that it somehow lend credibility to the notion that it’s a passing fad, you’d be sadly mistaken.

No, I’m not defending sockpuppeting. I do consider myself a proponent of the new franchise, though. It has some bugs to work out, but it is the future. The issue now is to make voices heard to continue to urge Bad Robot to improve the product. If you’d like to keep harping on sockpuppets, maybe the moderators will create a special thread for you.

825. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@ 824. Phil – April 4, 2014

“If you are of the opinion that because a proponent of the new franchise has been discredited that it somehow lend credibility to the notion that it’s a passing fad, you’d be sadly mistaken.”

Where did you get that weird notion ? I’m not talking about NuTrek here, that is a different topic. I’m talking about the toxic atmosphere that was caused by your dear friend.

As for NuTrek, I liked the first one, the ST2009 but really disliked STID. I will go & see the 3rd one when it come out, but this time with a lower expectations than before.

“If you’d like to keep harping on sockpuppets, maybe the moderators will create a special thread for you.”

You are not going to tell me what to say & where, mister.

826. Phil - April 4, 2014

@825. Perhaps not, but you made your point a week ago, and everyone gets it. You’re butt-hurt. That ships, sailed, and if you think that going on about it marginalizes anyone who may have agreed with MJ on occasion you’d be mistaken about that, too.

Like it or not, it’s time to move on.

827. dmduncan - April 4, 2014

822. Phil – April 4, 2014

Oh come on, now, that’s not fair. Who defended ST.09 more than I? Who? And I think I did a much better job of it than MJ ever did, without once–EVER–using sockpuppets to silence anyone.

If I didn’t defend STiD the same way it’s because I didn’t think it was nearly as good a movie.

I don’t care if it IS a Star Trek blog. How you win, as Ender Wiggins would say, matters. And I do not miss the total absence of empathy and desperation to prevail that was driving MJs sockpuppetry, which made the forums dully repetitive and not worth reading.

If you can’t silence someone with better arguments, then by what logic should they otherwise be silenced?

828. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@ 826. Phil – April 4, 2014

“@825. Perhaps not, but you made your point a week ago, and everyone gets it. You’re butt-hurt. That ships, sailed, and if you think that going on about it marginalizes anyone who may have agreed with MJ on occasion you’d be mistaken about that, too.
Like it or not, it’s time to move on.”

“whining”, “butt-hurt”, it doesn’t looks good when a puppet is trying to take the role of his late dear puppetmaster.

829. Marja - April 4, 2014

820 Curious, It was another individual to whom I was referring, one who kept hammering at Keachick for what I considered a somewhat “what-if” /”never-happen” idea on her part, not something to argue so passionately against. This person kept it up for weeks, blam, blam, blam! and was terribly insulted by something Keachick said in a moment of equal passion; the two of them took over a huge part of the thread for about a week. I made a mistaken attempt at “mediating” and thus [because somehow I was now responsible for Rose's behavior] drew endless condemnation from the hurt individual, while Rose saw my point. For reference, I give you #751 in this thread.

I was not “protecting” anyone, I was simply lobbying for civil communications, but never mind. This person could not or would not hear it and began hammering at me. While the arguments they made were very well-written and mostly came over as a lot more in-depth than MJ’s usual, their posts were equally — if not more — a case of hurt passion and arguing to win.

Some points we can make, but even after thorough debate, we cannot necessarily win each other over to our particular viewpoint and must often agree to disagree. A “draw,” if you will.

When people get beyond that point I consider them unreasonable — as I did MJ, “et. al.,” LOL. For a few months, after some reasonable intercession by a few of us, MJ cooled his jets a little and tried diplomacy in communication, but sadly, that didn’t last. I, too, noticed MJ’s slip-up between “MJ” and “DiscoSpock.” That raised my antennae.

At least W. Bradley, long may he remain absent, had the guts to sign his real name [and thus show everyone how much he was trying to control a given discussion].

830. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@829. Marja

“I, too, noticed MJ’s slip-up between “MJ” and “DiscoSpock.” That raised my antennae.”

I had no idea that you are an Andorian :-)

831. Marja - April 4, 2014

831 Ahmed, I’m an Aenar – I can read minds, too ;-)

832. Ahmed - April 4, 2014

@831. Marja

LOL

833. Captain Slow - April 4, 2014

It’s slightly sad that the most exciting thing that’s happened in the Star Trek world for months is a revelation about a blog poster. We need news!

834. Ahmed - April 5, 2014

@833. Captain Slow

“We need news!”

Indeed. Last month we found out more information about one of the new writers & according to Payne, the script will be done in May. So hopefully, we will hear news by that time about hiring a director or at least a release date.

835. Curious Cadet - April 5, 2014

@834 Ahmed,

Amazing isn’t it? How long did it take 3 professional Hollywood script writers and confessed Star Trek fans to hack out STID? And two new guys, fresh off the boat, and with no credits to their name, knock out a brilliant new Star Trek script in less than 6 months? Ouch.

836. Ahmed - April 5, 2014

@835. Curious Cadet

Ouch indeed :-)

On the other hand, the new guys have one project to work on, while Bob & Alex are taking new projects every day to the point that I lost count of how many movies & TV series they are working on.

837. Ahmed - April 5, 2014

In other news

===================================

BOX OFFICE: ‘Captain America’ Smashes April Opening Record With $90M To $93.9M Estimate For Disney/Marvel

Captain America: The Winter Soldier has stormed into this weekend’s box office taking charge of audiences across the nation, breaking April records and taking over the movie social media universe. The picture is playing strong across the board with solid A CinemaScores.

In terms of Marvel openers, it’s in the Top Ten, ranking No. 7 above last year’s Thor: The Dark World ($85.7M opener) and X-Men: The Last Stand ($102.7M) which bowed in 2006. With a strong international run, it will have made roughly $200M worldwide.

http://www.deadline.com/2014/04/box-office-captain-america-smashes-april-opening-record-with-90m-to-95m-or-higher-estimate-for-disneymarvel/

838. Disinvited - April 5, 2014

#827. dmduncan – April 4, 2014

Agreed.

And for those few who find less than total enthusiasm for Bad Robot’s Trek damnable, I can only point out that in my review of STID I said that while it is a flawed film, I feel Orci delivered on his promise that it would be something that I would recognize as a STAR TREK. Now I can definitely see why its passionate Trek fan critics might deride it as heavily cribbing from a previous work, but having enjoyed SF TV series that meet their episodic commitments by doing what I call “clip” shows that minimize an episode’s production requirements, I, for one, won’t criticize it for that.

My back story on that, clip shows used to drive me up the wall because they were usually so obvious, so awkward and so inartfully done. I’d knee-jerk dismiss them right off. But then STARGATE SG-1 found away to do it that made it clever and fun. And so my opinion of such things evolved to be more accepting when a production feels the need to resort to such a thing to meet its commitment, as long as they do it with a dash of panache and some intelligence.

It should be clear that I find STID a mixed bag. I’m not sure I find it as well done a B-movie actioner as their first effort. However, that wasn’t what I was looking for given what Bob telegraphed. I feel his team delivered something he promised in that it feels like a STAR TREK to me. I neither regard it as the worst Trek ever made nor the best. If I had to pigeonhole it I think I would call it a “safe” Trek. If had anything that I’d prefer to communicate to him personally about it, it might be something along the lines, “OK, you did what you said. Now do better.” However, knowing that he regards himself as a fan, I can’t imagine with his next Trek bound to be regarded as an “anniversary” Trek whether he desired such a weight or not, that he probably feels the stress of striving to achieve that regardless of my sentiments, and no matter how much he can lean on his young recruits.

And I regret the domestic marketing of STID was so lackluster that I missed an chance to catch this STAR TREK in the local theater.

One final observation about a production resorting to shows made primarily of clips of previous aired episodes, this usually comes about due to a lack of personnel and resources brought on by encroaching holidays and/or severe time constraints.

839. Disinvited - April 5, 2014

# 836. Ahmed – April 5, 2014, 835. Curious Cadet

If you think back to those thrilling posts of yesteryear, I believe you will oddly discover that, in this, MJ agreed with you as regards to the amount of actual time spent on STID’s script during those 4 years.

840. Who cares - April 5, 2014

@810. Your “understanding” is flat out wrong. Chris’s NZ drivers license, and ONLY his NZ drivers license was suspended. NZ has NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER in any other country. Chris’s California USA license is not affected IN ANY WAY by NZ courts. So long as Chris is in the United States or any other country besides NZ where he has a drivers license he can drive COMPLETELY LEGALLY. Also NO the US does not enforce DUI penalties from foreign countries, like NZ, against citizens. No matter what you think about it the only place Chris is not allowed to drive is NZ, he can drive all he wants in the USA, until he gets a DUI HERE.

That is, once again, the entire point I was making. Once again you missed it so completely that it is obvious that you did not even bother reading what I said. I am completely aware of where the Chateau Marmont i, and that is the very heart of my point. Chris’s NZ Drivers License, and ONLY his NZ Drivers License is temporarily suspended. Chris’s California USA Drivers License is completely unaffected and since the Chateau Marmont is in Los Angeles, California, USA Chris was driving legally, so long as he did not drink alcohol while he was at the Chateau Marmont, which I cannot know any more than you could.

The United States does not enforce foreign DUI convictions against its own citizens since those other nations do not conform to US standards for DUI, and for many other reasons, no amount of arguing from you will change this basic FACT. You very clearly have no understanding whatsoever of the nature of international laws, I actually do, I studied the subject out of curiosity. Seriously just google “Does the USA enforce DUI penalties from foreign nations”. A driver from NZ who had his license PERMANENTLY REVOKED, as in never ever getting it back, could immigrate to the USA and get a valid license in the USA with no problem. Its the same thing even within the United States itself, a driver whose license is revoked in say Nevada could move to say Ohio and get a license from that state without much hassle at all.

This is the last time I will try to explain this very simple fact to you. Chris cannot drive legally in NZ for 6 months, but he can drive in the USA legally whenever he wants, because NZ and the USA are independent sovereign nations.

Oh and I mentioned Chris being there for a meeting with Bad Robot because the first person to mention that restaurant on this thread was talking about a Bad Robot meeting that was held there, just scroll up and look for yourself, if you can manage that. It is simple deductive reasoning that if Bad Robot had a meeting there, and Chris was seen arriving there on the same day, then Chris was there for the meeting, DUH.

Now I am going back to reality, maybe you should try visiting it once in a while.

841. Keachick (Rose) - April 5, 2014

The picture I was referencing said nothing about a meeting, just that he was driving to/from the Chateau Marmont. That is speculation on your part as to why he could be there, other than eat and/or drink (either alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverage).

Chris Pine does NOT have a NZ drivers licence. He was driving here on an International Drivers Licence which was issued on his US licence. I am not sure what international law provides for here. One I don’t doubt is that the driver must abide by the laws of the land he is driving in. One aspect is that what worried Chris Pine was that he would not be allowed to drive in Canada for the next six months because of the disqualification, so it does seem that international law applies to such a licence.

The fact that the USA will not enforce DUI penalty of their own if a person has been arrested and convicted of being (well) over the generally accepted limit of .08 elsewhere, should actually cause you (ordinary Americans) some concern. What – will just the fact that they can get a US licence suddenly make them safer drivers? As for reality, I think that maybe it is you, Who Cares, who needs to visit it once in a while.

On the other hand, Chris Pine and others like Jim Toth (Reese Witherspoon’s new husband) can still drive after being found to be DUI, is not really my (NZ’s) problem. (Like NZ does not have enough fuckwits to bother us anyway). Jim Toth was picked up DUI and he had his wife and three children as passenger, one of them their new baby…but hey…meh…

So you have to wait until these people crash their cars, injure/kill themselves or others, until the law says that maybe we should take their drivers licences off them. Now how stupid is that?!

842. Cygnus-X1 - April 5, 2014

Well, we’ll see about brilliant.

The bar is pretty low going into BR Trek 3. A coherent plot will be regarded as success. An original story, too. And if we don’t scratch our heads wondering why the story’s villain is so gosh darned upset — that’s a trifecta right there.

843. Marja - April 5, 2014

835 Curious, “brilliant script” … that is yet to be determined :-}

836 Ahmed, Since Alex K is not listed as one of the scriptwriters for ST3, I assume he is the O&K Paper Products rep on hand for all the other projects, with Bob in and out as he supervises the Trek3 writers.

Re your 837, Ahh, if only Paramount could leave Marvel Comics-type adventures to Marvel, and do Sci-Fi stuff that doesn’t try to duplicate their popcorn smash-em-up movies. OTOH, was Ender’s Game a Paramount picture? If it was, hurrah, Paramount.

I do like Marvel’s humor. And I like humor in my Trek.

844. Cygnus-X1 - April 5, 2014

838. Disinvited – April 5, 2014

And for those few who find less than total enthusiasm for Bad Robot’s Trek damnable, I can only point out that in my review of STID I said that while it is a flawed film, I feel Orci delivered on his promise that it would be something that I would recognize as a STAR TREK.

Well, I have to disagree with you on both points there.

I didn’t recognize STID as Star Trek. For starters, STID didn’t really have theme. Not a strong, well developed one, anyway. The protagonist, Kirk, really doesn’t learn anything through the story. There’s not actually an “arc.” He loses his command at the beginning of the story for an irrational decision that’s never really explained and which defies the internal logic of the story, but then he gets his command right back 10 minutes later. No lesson learned there. The monologues by Khan in the brig, and by Kirk at the end of the story, each pay lip service to a would-have-been theme—”family” for Khan and “becoming the evil that you’re fighting against for Kirk referencing Marcus—but these weren’t really themes of the movie, as they were never developed and didn’t affect the resolution of the story. Additionally, STID wasn’t really science fiction. It was an action movie, whose only thoughtful sci-fi element had been ripped off from Trek past and never really explored in STID. “Genetic engineering” was more of a backstory than anything else. STID certainly gave us nothing to think about, except maybe wondering what the plot was supposed to be.

Now I can definitely see why its passionate Trek fan critics might deride it as heavily cribbing from a previous work, but having enjoyed SF TV series that meet their episodic commitments by doing what I call “clip” shows that minimize an episode’s production requirements, I, for one, won’t criticize it for that.

A clip show would have been better, but STID wasn’t even a clip show in that they tried to reproduce the scenes/elements that they lifted from TWOK, but in combination with and in circumstances which were not appropriate for those scenes/elements. In TWOK, the meaning of Spock’s death for Kirk is supported by two decades worth of friendship, suffering and adventures together. Further, Spock’s death teaches Kirk a lesson: facing death, which he’d hitherto always managed to avoid or cheat his way out of. In STID, none of those elements are present, so the death scene plays like a mindless aping of TWOK. Also absent from STID is the meaningfulness of Kirk’s self-sacrifice—”The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…or the one” which was not a theme of the movie up to that point, but rather yet another lip-service having been dropped into the dialogue in order to very superficially set up the forthcoming death scene rip-off. I could go on and on here…suffice it to say that I am not nearly as forgiving of STID as you are.

845. Curious Cadet - April 5, 2014

@836. Ahmed,
“On the other hand, the new guys have one project to work on, while Bob & Alex are taking new projects every day”

Or, O&K already had their Trek fan script idea in their back pocket they’d been working on since college, that became STID, just like the new guys. Once that one was burned off, O&K had nothing else. Take Khan out of STID and it could have been a Jack Ryan story. So I’m guessing the new guys interview went something like this: “Pitch us your Star Trek story idea … Wow! You’re hired!”

@842. Marja,
“was Ender’s Game a Paramount picture? If it was, hurrah, Paramount.”

It was not. Lionsgate made that one, and there likely won’t be another as it barely made its $110 million production budget back at the box office, and won’t break even after everyone gets their take, and they recoup marketing expenses.

846. boy - April 5, 2014

More news on trek 3 please

847. Curious Cadet - April 5, 2014

CORRECTION@844^^^^

“O&K already had their Trek fan script idea in their back pocket they’d been working on since college, that became ST09″

848. Ahmed - April 5, 2014

@ 842. Marja – April 5, 2014

“836 Ahmed, Since Alex K is not listed as one of the scriptwriters for ST3, I assume he is the O&K Paper Products rep on hand for all the other projects, with Bob in and out as he supervises the Trek3 writers.”

I think that Alex is still involved as a writer, Bob said so when he was asked about Alex departure as a writer.

=======
“697. boborci – December 17, 2013

Rumors of Kurtzman’s lack of involvement are premature. amazing that entertainment journalists cant get anything right, even though our industry is not classified, though blame probably goes to dip$hit agent leaks. No matter. Story development going well.”

http://trekmovie.com/2013/12/06/new-writers-added-to-trek-3/

849. Keachick (Rose) - April 5, 2014

I was wondering what happened to my post answering Who Cares post #840. Now I realize that the filters knocking the words, written in full, like f*ckwit, has deleted my post.

First, Chris Pine does NOT have a NZ Drivers Licence. He was granted an International Drivers Permit which was issued on his US licence. Also, at the time of his arrest/conviction, his lawyer stated that because of the conviction/six month disqualification, he feared that he would not be allowed to drive in Canada. So it does appear that driving on an INTERNATIONAL Drivers Permit does have a different set of laws applying to the person using such a permit.

I was referring to a picture which showed him driving to/from the Chateau Marmont. There was no reference made as to why he was there he was there at the time the picture was taken. Therefore, Who Cares, it is speculation on your part that Chris was there for a meeting with Bad Robot.

I find the laws that you have described, well, somewhat peculiar. What – so you are saying that all it needs to suddenly make a person a safer driver, ie not DUI, is to simply move state, country and have a new licence issued – no questions asked, no restrictions or anything. Seriously?

Another issue is that you say that no restrictions are placed on drivers who are found to be DUI, even if they are well over the generally accepted limit of .08, other than a fine (just more revenue gathering). I take this to mean that the law won’t step in and place any restrictions on a person who is (consistently) driving with way too much alcohol in his system, until this person crashes, injures himself or perhaps injures or kills others as well. What – does someone have to have their life ruined and/or others die first? How care-less and stupid is that?

I feel like someone crying in the wilderness that is full of stupidity, carelessness and indifference. Does anyone hear me?

850. Keachick (Rose) - April 5, 2014

Cygnus-X1 – Your take on STID is different from mine, but then I don’t keep harping back to a 30+ year old film set in a different universe/timeline. I just watch what is happening to the people – this Kirk, Spock…in the “here and now” of this alternate universe.

Spock was angry at finding and then soon losing a real friend, on top of everyone else he had lost already and he focused his anger and grief on the man responsible for this latest loss, Khan. Quite possibly, this was the “straw that broke the camel back”, hence the scream. How hard is that to understand? Obviously, it is, for some people…sigh…:(

Frankly I don’t give a sh*t about Space Seed or TWOK. In fact, I am really beginning to hate those two entries in the Star Trek story franchise. People have made a bloody big deal out of these two old farts of shows…UGH!

851. Marja - April 5, 2014

844 Curious, I guess “Ender’s Game” didn’t make much b/c of OSCard’s homophobic remarks [well, apparently they fit with his religion or something]. The movie just didn’t have enough head squishin’ kidney kickin’ violence I guess ;-p

845 Rose, there are certain things that may not translate fromone country to another, as in the measurable presence of alcohol in the blood. in the USA it’s 0.08 as the legal limit. If NZ’s is 0.06, then Pine would be legal here.

International agreements may apply as well. IDK. Something like extradition treaties, only involving other laws.

I agree that drunk driving is a crime, but as long as the judgement to get into a car and drive is up to the driver, it’ll happen. How many young adults do you know who exhibit common sense, let alone when they’re under the influence? “They’re immortal,” I say, every time a college student zooms past me in a big giant pickup truck, music pounding, a cellphone to his/her ear.

In the US there are roadside “screenings” on holidays, sports game days, and so on, when drinking is a huge part of the day … police set up a roadblock and test likely drivers for alcohol. So, better not have alcohol breath. This is a preventive measure. There are in certain states, different laws that cover DUI; in FL there is an automatic sentence minimum 4 years prison time for a hit and run accident where the driver has been imbibing.

Penalties have increased greatly after a 30-some-year campaign by Mothers Against Drunk Driving, founded by a woman whose child was killed by a drunk driver. They used to be incredibly lenient with drunk drivers in the US.

[PS, Rose, do let's try to avoid that "FW" term. Yeah the other guy was pretty insulting, condescending, but try to stay on the higher ground. He has valid points, but i didn't like the way he talked to you either(You can only imagine the language I wanted to use to She Who Shall Not be Named at 751). ]

852. Marja - April 5, 2014

843 Cygnus, Further, Spock’s death [in STII:WOK] teaches Kirk a lesson: facing death, which he’d hitherto always managed to avoid or cheat his way out of. In STID, none of those elements are present, so the death scene plays like a mindless aping of TWOK.

Oh, pshaw! The need for Kirk to give his own life to save those he rashly risked teaches him a lesson, and he certainly faces death! He has learned from Spock, who was willing to give his life to save Nibiru [albeit in an unauthorized mission], that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That his own need for revenge is so puny next to the lives of his crew.

In a way that brings even more poignancy to the scene, because of all that should have been, with Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise, with Kirk and a deepening friendship with Spock. Kirk knows what could have been because of his meld with ElderSpock (in the first movie). Spock, who was willing to give his life, sees the consequences outlined several times: first, his own impending death in the Vulcano, second, from Uhura’s point of view, when she challenges him on his lack of concern for dying, third, his own POV as he watches Uhura risk her life to talk with the Klingons, fourth, when Kirk has saved the ship by entering the warp core.

Spock has begun to respect Kirk by now, he’s seen Kirk’s caring [albeit undisciplined, overt caring, while Spock's is disciplined and understated] and he’s seen his humility [1] when Kirk turns the ship over to him and [2] when Kirk sacrifices himself, partly atoning for his errors and bad judgement which killed members of his crew and has risked the ship. As Kirk lies dying, Spock feels a veritable avalanche of deaths sweeping toward him: his mother, much of his culture, his planet, Captain Pike, and now this guy who nearly became a good friend to him. Again, it’s What Could Have Been. And the losses with the impending loss make him crazy.

Still and all, I really would have preferred Spock to have roared, “NO-O-O!” just the same way he did when he almost killed Kirk on the bridge in the first movie. Oh shucks, Lindelof.

853. dmduncan - April 5, 2014

835. Curious Cadet – April 5, 2014

Who said the script was brilliant?

Since Hollywood hypes everything, that translates into “good” or “good enough for Star Trek.”

But even if it were brilliant, there’s a long hazardous road from a good script to making a good movie out of it.

838. Disinvited – April 5, 2014

I would call STiD uninspired. They were trying too hard and came up with a weak story that they used big action set pieces to compensate for.

The result is that it’s watchable, moves fast, but is unfulfilling.

854. Disinvited - April 5, 2014

#843. Cygnus-X1 – April 5, 2014

“…suffice it to say that I am not nearly as forgiving of STID as you are.” – Cygnus-X1

And I get that.

I’m not able to recall anything that makes me aware of your take on their 2009 effort so I’m not saying the following applies to you but I offer as window perhaps into my approach to it.

I suspect that the reason I veer from the pack of those disappointed in STID is that while I saw the 2009 film as a decent film film, it just did not register as Trek for me. Now I understand that the nascency of all those involved, the characters and the ship was enough for many to forgive much. However, for me with my long dance with Paramount both old and new, I wasn’t desirous of nor looking for nascent Trek. Clearly, I had a lowered bar of expectation going into STID than the many pouring the champagne in 2009 and I doubt anything I can now say will bridge that gap.

I will now address your concerns with regards to Kirk not learning anything. In focusing on Kirk, I believe you may have totally missed why they flipped TWOK. The hero’s journey in STID was not Kirk’s but Spock’s. And perhap’s more significantly for Trek exploring areas it had never done before it was a Spock with a Significant Other and they worked together in that relationship to bring the bad guy down in a traditional Trek non-lethal manner.

At the beginning of STID, it was made clear to me that Spock still hadn’t come to terms with his loss in the previous flick. The human mind has an astounding ability to cause that which it fears most to manifest. He was in a dangerous dance with it that threatened not only continued loss by way of losing his own life but that of his relationship as well (hopefully not in that order). And on the way to losing his position on the E he learns and is bewildered to discover that he has a friend and wasn’t being very good at returning the friendship by way of being a good one, as well.

Now I would have preferred if they had kept Greenwood’s Pike viable, but if you are going to have have him die it is only righteous Trek that Spock be there however disquieting it is that the death itself had to be a part of Spock’s journey. And in that scene, I got the first inkling that Spock was off on that Trek of learning new things about himself and others.

I believe I’ve made my point and don’t have to belabor it by enumerating everything Spock learned by the film’s end.

I disagree with you that Kirk learned absolutely nothing. However, I have to concede what he did learn was relatively minor compared to Spock.

855. dmduncan - April 5, 2014

I would compare Chris Pine to an airplane that can’t get more than 100 feet off the ground.

If Chris is having problems related to the trajectory of his career, it may just be because of where he thinks he ought to be as opposed to where he is.

Pine may just have to resign himself to having William Shatner’s career instead of Harrison Ford’s. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing given how well it’s paid off for Shatner.

856. Cygnus-X1 - April 5, 2014

852. Disinvited – April 5, 2014

The reason I focused on Kirk is that he’s the one who lost his job and his father-figure (though he gets his job right back after his father-figure dies), not to mention that he’s the captain of the ship that comes close to being destroyed by Marcus and the task falls to Kirk to save the day.

I think you’re doing the job of the writers for them, with regard to Spock’s hero-journey, as I’ve seen several people do when appraising STID generally. I don’t see any journey for Spock in that story, not a significant one, anyway. The fight scene vs. Khan at the end means absolutely nothing. It’s not indicative of some sort of relationship issue between Spock and Uhura. If anything, the fight scene vs. Khan demonstrates that Spock HASN’T learned anything vis-a-vis Uhura, because the one thing that she’d have liked him to have learned, the one and only issue between them in this story, is for him to consider her before going off and risking his life like he does in the volcano at the beginning of the story. And what does Spock do at the end of the story? He runs off in an emotional rage to risk his life again chasing down the genetically engineered superman single-handedly. But, go ahead and enumerate, if you’d like to. What did Spock learn, what was his character arc, and what scenes/dialogue demonstrate/develop Spock’s lessons?

857. Disinvited - April 5, 2014

#850. Marja – April 5, 2014

Agree about Kirk learning, and that Spock’s “Khaaaaaaaaaan!” was too inside the ballpark and cutesy for the emotions that scene had aroused up unto the laughter it induces. I know sometimes writers feel a scene gets too heavy and that humor is required to keep an audience engaged, but if they thought that moment called for humor, it was just plain a mistake.

#851. dmduncan – April 5, 2014

And I agree. Fits my definition of “SAFE” Trek as a good way to kill an hour or two but ultimately unfulfilling.

858. Marja - April 5, 2014

854 Cygnus, “I think you’re doing the job of the writers for them, with regard to Spock’s hero-journey, as I’ve seen several people do when appraising STID generally. I don’t see any journey for Spock in that story, not a significant one, anyway. The fight scene vs. Khan at the end means absolutely nothing. It’s not indicative of some sort of relationship issue between Spock and Uhura. If anything, the fight scene vs. Khan demonstrates that Spock HASN’T learned anything vis-a-vis Uhura, because the one thing that she’d have liked him to have learned, the one and only issue between them in this story, is for him to consider her before going off and risking his life like he does in the volcano at the beginning of the story.”

Actually the fight scene is a weird sort of resolution to the S/U relationship issue. Before he runs off to fight Khan, Spock is on the Bridge with Uhura. They confirm that Khan is on the ground in San Fran. Spock looks at Uhura, who is equally enraged by Kirk’s death. They exchange a gaze of agreement and she says, tears in her eyes, “Go get him.” At which point Spock runs off, beams down &c. &c. Then as the fight is going south and McCoy has made his conclusion about the effect of Khan’s blood on the tribble [whut], Uhura beams down to “redeem” Spock from killing Khan and to save Kirk’s life by bringing Khan back alive.

So yeah, one has to do a lot of work to get to a place where it makes sense b/c the movie goes by so fast. I only got all this after I saw it five times.

As to the hero’s journey of Spock, it started in the first movie. This time we do seem to be following Spock as the “lead” of the Star Trek movies, which I’m perfectly happy with.

The TOS movies are space opera adventures. These movies are adventure space operas. IMHO we need more space and less adventure, I’m fine with the amount of opera.

And I echo the sentiment that PIKE SHOULD HAVE LIVED, cripes. A near-fatal injury would have done, one where Pike thinks he’s going to die. I’m just mad they killed off Amanda, Vulcan, and Pike. Grr!

859. Keachick (Rose) - April 5, 2014

Marja – The alcohol limit is the same as for the US for now, which is still .08. Chris Pine measured .113 which is quite a bit over the accepted limit of .08 for both NZ and the US. Therein lies my point.

But whatev… his drink/driving habits are your problem, like all the other American citizens who just get fined and carry on driving, with no apparent restrictions placed on them. Chris left NZ a day or so later. Shame really – he might have had to take a good look at what he is doing re his overall alcohol consumption and his apparent belief that he is somehow safe to drive with that level of alcohol in his blood stream. Then again, it has become all too obvious as why he appears to have rather cavalier attitude, given what I have read here…

Actually I used the FW word relating to drunk drivers in NZ, as “we have enough of our own FWs here…” . I never directed the term at Who Cares, but obviously filters just picked up that word/spelling and went delete.

860. Marja - April 5, 2014

Rest assured, Pine’s living in California, where the cops and highway patrol are pretty sharp.

Although he’s a star and could probably hire good legal team if needed, so who knows. Mel Gibson [feh!] had numerous drunk driving charges. OJ Simpson was rich and he got off on murder.

My hope is that Pine’s arrest and arraignment and all that happened in NZ was a “come ta Jesus” moment and he’ll keep his s*it together. For some reason I thought NZ had recently lowered the legal limit to .06? But yeah, .113 is not good, not good at all. Shame!

Disappointing behavior, but again, he’s still fairly young and may have thought, “oh, just this once” and got caught up short.

Stardom and paparazzi and all that intrusive s*it make some people bonkers. I just thought Pine had more sense. He seems quite intelligent, but book-smart doesn’t always make life-smart.

861. Captain Slow - April 5, 2014

@ 843 Cygnus-X1

“I didn’t recognize STID as Star Trek. For starters, STID didn’t really have theme. Not a strong, well developed one, anyway.”

I disagree. Khan asks the theme of the movie and makes it quite clear: “Is there anything you would not do for your family?”. That drives everything about the story.

862. Captain Slow - April 5, 2014

@ 843 Cygnus-X1

“I didn’t recognize STID as Star Trek. For starters, STID didn’t really have theme. Not a strong, well developed one, anyway.”

I disagree. Khan asks the theme of the movie and makes it quite clear: “Is there anything you would not do for your family?”. That drives everything about the story.

863. Captain Slow - April 5, 2014

Sorry. I hit the button twice.

864. Disinvited - April 5, 2014

#843. Cygnus-X1 – April 5, 2014, 856. Marja – April 5, 2014

Marja’s right. I’ve only seen STID twice but i got that Spock and Uhura arrived at the conclusion together to sic him on Khan the first time around. She was not his superior officer when she told him to “Go get him!” that was a decision they made together as a couple as opposed to what he.at the beginning of the movie.

865. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

#851 – “…that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That his (Kirk) own need for revenge is so puny next to the lives of his crew.”

When Kirk first volunteered to find and kill Harrison/Khan, Kirk was lead to believe that none of the crew would face any danger; that it was a simple search and destroy mission (of one man). However, clearly this was not the case. Two things happened – first Spock appeals to Kirk’s knowledge and importance of Starfleet regulations and that Marcus’s orders violated those and that of Kirk’s own conscience. Kirk’s true heroism was coming into play when he gave the orders to find Khan and bring him back to earth for trial. He had pretty much let the revenge motive go and simply wanted to see justice done through proper, legal means.

Then it becomes apparent that the Enterprise has suffered serious sabotage and has been left stranded on the edge of Klingon space. Kirk not firing on that side of a supposedly uninhabited part of Kronos, because of his conversation with Spock who appealed to Kirk’s integrity, meant that they did not get destroyed by a Klingon armada. When Kirk did as Spock advised, he, indeed, no one had any idea what was to come.

The mission he lead, although secret, was authorised by the Head of Starfleet himself. Not all relevant information was forthcoming, hence Scotty’s resignation, yet Kirk felt obliged to do as his commanding officer had ordered. The truth was that Kirk and the Enterprise were set up. Kirk own reason and conscience caused him to not kill Khan but bring him back. His mistake was to tell Marcus what he was doing. Then again, why wouldn’t he? Marcus may have ordered H/K’s death, but surely Marcus would see that the right thing to happen was that Khan face trial. Instead, Marcus shows his true colours and attempts to do what he had planned and planned that the Klingons would do for him…

I saw that apology “I am sorry” that Kirk gave on the bridge just before Marcus was to fire on them and destroy them, was about not being able to do anything, as captain, to save anyone. He was sorry about how it had all turned out, that death awaited and how he wished it wasn’t so.

Kirk’s real problem is that the person of power who had him lose his command and then grant it back to him and give the orders was, in actuality, a conniving, warmongering a-hole. How do you get past that?

866. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

856. Marja – April 5, 2014

You’re right about the Uhura/Spock bit. But, I still don’t see a hero’s journey for Spock in STID, not a significant one, anyway. Perhaps the superficial outline of a hero’s journey that might have been—that’s the most I can maybe see in STID.

Agree with you that it was a bad gimmick to kill off Pike at the beginning.

867. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

859. Captain Slow – April 5, 2014

I disagree. Khan asks the theme of the movie and makes it quite clear: “Is there anything you would not do for your family?”. That drives everything about the story.

That’s hardly a theme and it doesn’t particularly drive the story. It comes off as a stilted pitch to the audience that the writers dropped into the dialogue in a lame attempt to have an overarching theme for the story they’d all but finished. “Shit, we need a theme. The last movie didn’t have a theme. Make Khan’s fondness for his buddies the theme of the whole movie. It’ll work because the good guys are all helping each other out like they normally do.”

Notwithstanding that Khan flatly states it as his motivation (no subtle crafting by the writers there), he didn’t need the excuse of avenging his 72 buddies to go ape-shit on Marcus. Khan is genetically engineered to be super aggressive and super dominant and he’d been treated like a slave by Marcus for some time. I believe Khan when he says that his buddies are important to him, but he’d likely have sought revenge on Marcus anyway. This weakens Khan’s motivation. But what really renders Khan’s motivation ludicrous is that as far as Khan knows, his stated motive for trying to kill Marcus would not have helped his buddies in any way! Khan tries to kill Marcus out of revenge because he thinks that Marcus has killed his buddies, an act that, while it might bring satisfaction to Khan, would not have helped his dead buddies at all! So, what’s Khan really “doing for his family” by trying to kill Marcus? Nothing! The writers just threw that line in there as a lame gesture of a theme.

Further, neither Kirk nor Spock does anything out of character, unusual, unexpected or otherwise special out of a heart-swelling sense of familial love…nothing that we are shown, anyway. The whole “family” theme is kind of a weak one to begin with, but I can see how it might have been thoughtfully developed into a strong, overarching theme for the movie: For starters, you’d take time in the story to show characters conflicted and making certain decisions based on familial considerations, but there was none of that in STID. All we got was Khan telling us in one line that this story is about “family” and family is what motivated him to go after Marcus, which as I said, is as much a display of selfish bloodlust as familial love.

I agree that there was an *attempt* at having the overarching theme of STID be familial sacrifice, but it was a lame attempt that resulted in a theme that is ankle-deep, if it can be regarded as a theme at all. Compare the familial sacrifice “theme” of STID with the much more developed themes of TWOK, STIII and STVI. Those movies really are driven entirely by their themes. And those themes are very meaningful.

868. Marja - April 6, 2014

863 Rose, What I was saying is that, seeing Pike get killed made Kirk want to take action. He is a man of action and at that moment he went to Marcus’s office, the action he wanted was vengeance against the one who had caused the death of his father figure.

As they travel out to find “Harrison,” Spock reminds the angry Kirk of Federation law. I got the sense that Spock was hoping Kirk would come back to himself and make a more life-affirming choice than killing. Kirk recognizes that Marcus might not be on the up-and-up with his insistence on “taking Harrison out” … and determines to bring him back for trial.

Then the shee’ hits the fan and Kirk has that horrible moment of realization that he was completely led astray — Marcus used Kirk’s own feelings against him — and that Marcus is completely off his nut. And his entire crew is going to die. Revenge is a puny thing next to the lives of those who depend on your leadership. Kirk’s youth dies right there.

869. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

Correction:

Further, neither Kirk nor Spock does anything out of character, unusual, unexpected or otherwise special out of a heart-swelling sense of familial love…nothing that we are shown, anyway apart from the Kirk self-sacrifice which was lifted from TWOK.

870. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#858. Marja – April 5, 2014

And their superiors may still be starstruck with his Dad who played the CHP officers’ boss on CHiPS. Unfortunately, in CA celebrity can still occasionally be wielded as a get out of jail free card if the crime is regarded rightly or wrongly as “‘victimless”.

871. Marja - April 6, 2014

868, Cygnus, well, okay, I had answered your previous in great detail and wiped it out twice by some frikkin random touchpad stroke. Dammit, they were some good points too.

It was a neat reversal though. I saw WOK about 17 times, and knew it almost beat-by-beat, so I could appreciate the reversal for every nuance.

I think you have a much more developed sense of distance and critical thinking when it comes to scriptwriting; I appreciate all the points you made in your long post about what short shrift the overarching theme is given. I think to some extent the writers wanted us to fill in the blanks, and some of us poured our hearts into doing just that.

I love the characters in these new films. Kirk hasn’t been best served so far, I’m hoping for better in Trek3. As I say above, I think his youth died when Marcus was about to destroy the Enterprise.

I also think that your critical distance may come from the fact that you don’t appreciate the use of our beloved characters in these more action-packed films. That they are violating, on some level, the films you’ve known and loved for two-plus decades. And I understand that. I feel the same, to a degree.

I think all the action has cost these films some of that loyal audience [especially as I recall some remarks in this here site]. But I appreciate these characters as slightly different than they were in TOS. Still learning so they can reach the level of professionalism they have by the first TOS. I don’t know, I guess I get really caught up in the emotion and can’t distance myself as well. And I want to see these characters grow and have new adventures, weekly adventures!

STII:WOK would not be a summer blockbuster, and, alas for the NuTrek movies, they are being made and marketed as such. My hopes are that they bring it to TV and can downsize the action and upsize the character studies and philosophy and science that we’ve loved since days of yore.

872. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#867. Cygnus-X1 – April 6, 2014

I am unclear as to what you are referring to as doing something as “out of character”. It is my understanding that STID takes place immediately after the end of the 2009 film. At most, a mere handful of months away. Any action the E crew members take towards bonding or forming stronger bonds as a family unit in STiD would be “out of character” as to what we got in 2009.

Also, the end of STID takes place an entire year after Khan’s capture where I got a very strong sense that the surviving E crew members were far more trusting and stronger as a cohesive “family” unit under Kirk’s command than the more dysfunctional one of 2009 and STID’s opening.

873. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#869. Marja – April 6, 2014

Man I hate when that happens. Fortunately, I recall that ctrl z is my friend. it undoes what you did and if you hit too many of those ctrl y brings you forward.

874. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

Marja – Late last year, the Government here mooted that the legal limit was to be lowered to .05 and at the time of Pine’s arrest, I thought it had been. But it has not been and in fact, there has been nothing more said about the proposal. The limit is still .08 in NZ.

It seems that they have dropped the limit from .08 to .05 in New South Wales, Australia.

Another problem now is tiredness while driving and the negative impact that can have on accident rates etc. I think that may be as big a problem as driving under the influence of alcohol and/or other drugs.

875. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

“Jim Toth, who was driving, was found to have a blood alcohol level of 0.139 and was arrested and charged with driving under the influence and failing to maintain a lane…The couple was released on bond at 3:30 AM the same day… When Witherspoon’s lawyer and her husband appeared in court on May 2, Toth pleaded guilty and was ordered to complete 40 hours of community service, an alcohol-education program, and one year of probation; Witherspoon pleaded no contest and was fined $213.”

This occurred on 19 April 2013. I believe there were three children in the car as well, one of them their 6 month old son. What does probation mean, in this context? Is Jim Toth still allowed to drive?

I wonder if Chris, instead of being disqualified, has to do some community service and do an alcohol-education program. That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

I am sorry if I seem obsessed. Perhaps I am a bit. Stuff like this does concern me and I think it is best to think and speak about it when it is a bit topical (CP’s court case occurred less than 3 weeks ago) rather than at random.

876. Captain Slow - April 6, 2014

@ 865 Cygnus X-1

The way I see it is that the family theme and the revenge theme drive everything. My take is that what the movie is saying is that even for people you care about more than anything, there are some lines you must not cross. For instance:

When Khan thinks his crew is dead his first thought is revenge.
He gets Thomas Harewood to help him by bombing the Section 31 building.
Then when Pike is killed Kirk’s first thought is revenge.

So at the beginning all these characters are willing to kill people in the name of their families. Spock then convinces Kirk to capture Khan instead.
Then at the end Kirk puts aside his hatred of Khan to stop Marcus. Kirk doesn’t even think about revenge anymore but it’s all Khan cares about.
Then when the Enterprise is about to be destroyed Kirk sacrifices himself, and only himself, not letting Scotty go with him.
Finally Spock goes after Khan to get revenge for killing Kirk but if he had killed Khan then they wouldn’t have been able to save Kirk.

Anyway, that’s how I interpreted it. Unfortunately we never see why Khan had to be alive when they sucked his blood but we just have to assume it was necessary.

877. Curious Cadet - April 6, 2014

@865. Cygnus-X1,
“All we got was Khan telling us in one line that this story is about “family”

For my money that was classic Khan manipulation. Khan had to have known all about Kirk. Kirk saved the galaxy from Nero and was promoted from cadet to captain. Google searches about Kirk must have shut down the Federation servers. Khan knew why Kirk pummeled him on Kronos, and that told him all he needed to know in order to manipulate Kirk to get what he really wanted … The Vengeance, which he tells Spock he is going to use to continue his work — conquering the galaxy and purging it of inferior beings, which is what Spock tells us he was doing on Earth in the 90s. Assuming Khan really believed he thought his crew was killed by Marcus, his actions were hardly motivated entirely by his desire for revenge — he enacted a plan to ensure his survival to continue his work. And that’s where the movie went off the tracks — Khan is so much more than a character who is the victim of circumstances, and was shoe-horned into a story that could have had much greater resonance had Harrison been a more sympathetic character.

878. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#873. Keachick (Rose) – April 6, 2014

DUI conviction carries with it an automatic suspended license in the state of CA in the US. The only modifications are the court can grant a license restricted to essential life needing routes such as to and from work, needed medical treatments and groceries. I may be mistaken has I could be confusing any of a number of her court paroles and house arrests onto this one conviction but I believe Lindsay Lohan caught the wrath of the court while having such a restricted license when it was discovered her vehicle got a parking ticket outside a nightclub far from any of the limited routes,

879. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

869. Marja – April 6, 2014

It was a neat reversal though. I saw WOK about 17 times, and knew it almost beat-by-beat, so I could appreciate the reversal for every nuance.

I guess this point is just an issue of taste. I’m extremely familiar with TWOK also, and I found the death-scene rip-off to be in extremely poor taste.

I think you have a much more developed sense of distance and critical thinking when it comes to scriptwriting; I appreciate all the points you made in your long post about what short shrift the overarching theme is given. I think to some extent the writers wanted us to fill in the blanks, and some of us poured our hearts into doing just that.

Yes! Thank you!

I also think that your critical distance may come from the fact that you don’t appreciate the use of our beloved characters in these more action-packed films. That they are violating, on some level, the films you’ve known and loved for two-plus decades. And I understand that. I feel the same, to a degree.

This is true. And it’s not even the premise of a new take on the characters that bothers me. I’m totally fine with the concept of having an entire set of movies or even an entire series set in the Alt Universe. We’ve seen that before in the “mirror universe” episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9 and STE, and those episodes and that premise were generally well received. I’ve even seen a few people remark in the Enterprise Season 4 thread that their favorite episodes from that season or from the entire series were the “Mirror” ones.

The problems with the BR Trek movies voiced by fans and critics alike all relate to the writing and style of filmmaking. As you alluded to, these are action movies rather than the more thoughtful, philosophical science fiction that was Trek for the 45 years leading up to Bad Robot taking over the productions. There are many components to the problem of Bad Robot being the production company—and it would be an interesting analysis on its own—but to (try to) keep it simple:

While JJ Abrams has demonstrated his skills at crafting a film that is visually titillating and thrilling, his style of filmmaking is basically a collection of techniques that has nothing to do with Star Trek. As he’s said on several occasions, Abrams never particularly liked or “got” Trek. He never had any interest in Trek until the opportunity arose for him to use it as a vehicle to get into movies. So, BR Trek is basically a mix-and-match job. Mix the iconic characters of the 45-year-old Trek franchise with this new style by this guy Abrams who really doesn’t care about Trek beyond his own career advancement, add direction by Paramount based on their market research to make the movies more action-packed in order to appeal to international audiences, and out come the Bad Robot Trek movies, which many people have complained don’t look or feel like Star Trek, for reasons which should now be obvious.

I don’t know, I guess I get really caught up in the emotion and can’t distance myself as well.

That’s one of the things that really irks me about the BR Trek movies. They purposefully set up scenes at the beginning of the movie to tug on your heart-strings so that you’ll become emotionally invested in a rather weak story which has many flaws and would not otherwise earn your emotional involvement on its own merits. To wit: Beloved character Pike getting killed off at the beginning of STID; George Kirk dying while his wife is giving birth to his son—could you possibly think up a more pathos-evoking situation than that? (It *kind of* reminds me of how people criticized “The Passion of the Christ” for using a 20-minute long, brutally graphic torture scene to evoke feelings of pity in the audience which ultimately turn into guilt and anger at the Jews for betraying Jesus.)

I fell for it, too, with both ST09 and STID in the theater. But after speaking to people about the movies and reading some of the in-depth reviews—especially with regard to ST09, which I had a much higher opinion of immediately after seeing it in the theater than I have now watching it on DVD—I was able to gain some perspective and distance, as you say. I don’t mean to make this sound as though I was convinced not to like the movies. I had already noticed, particularly with ST09 which I LOVED in the theater, that it wasn’t holding up well over time on repeat viewings. When I started trying to figure out why that should be the case, I began noticing the aforementioned pity-mongering (for lack of a better term), among other issues. And then when I began stepping out of the moment and thinking about the construction of the story, the house of cards started collapsing, if you will.

My hopes are that they bring it to TV and can downsize the action and upsize the character studies and philosophy and science that we’ve loved since days of yore.

That would be great, but for that we’re going to need a new production company running the show and a showrunner who is not only a good writer and has a good, critical eye for writing, but one who actually understands and CARES about Trek for its own sake as an art form and appreciates the cultural influence and import that it had for the 45 years leading up to BR. Just look at how much technology Trek has inspired, for starters. Look at these iPads that everyone has now—straight out of TNG!

880. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

872. Disinvited – April 6, 2014

I am unclear as to what you are referring to as doing something as “out of character”. It is my understanding that STID takes place immediately after the end of the 2009 film.

I mean that there’s nothing particularly “family sacrifice” about the movie, beyond Khan’s weak revenge motive and the parts lifted from TWOK. STID contains a gesture of a theme as opposed to an actual theme. A theme is a lesson, usually a moral lesson, or at the very least a concept that is developed in such a way as to show you something meaningful.

What did you learn from STID? And if you didn’t learn anything, was there at least a rich, meaningful, elucidating or otherwise thought-provoking illustration of a lesson that you already knew? For me, there absolutely was not. STID *tells* the audience that it is about family sacrifice as opposed to *showing* family sacrifice (developing that theme in meaningful detail).

881. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

876. Captain Slow – April 6, 2014

I’m not saying that your interpretation of the events in the story is wrong. But those events don’t really add up to much of a theme. See what I said in #880.

882. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

877. Curious Cadet – April 6, 2014

@865. Cygnus-X1, “All we got was Khan telling us in one line that this story is about “family”

For my money that was classic Khan manipulation

Yes, I agree.

And that’s where the movie went off the tracks — Khan is so much more than a character who is the victim of circumstances, and was shoe-horned into a story that could have had much greater resonance had Harrison been a more sympathetic character.

Excellent point.

Having Khan crying in the brig over what he thought was the loss his buddies was a weird and confused action to write for that character.

If Khan is actually just crying to gain Kirk’s sympathy in order to manipulate him, it would be consistent with Khan as a ruthless sociopath, but it weakens the whole attempt at a familial sacrifice theme (being that Khan’s emotion about his buddies is fake). And if Khan is crying because he’s actually upset about losing his buddies, then, as you say, he comes off as a victim of circumstance which is very out of character. I’m glad that you pointed this out, because when I saw the movie in the theater I felt somewhat confused by that scene and unsure what to make of it.

883. Curious Cadet - April 6, 2014

@879. Cygnus-X1,
“STID *tells* the audience that it is about family sacrifice as opposed to *showing* family sacrifice (developing that theme in meaningful detail).”

It’s hard to make that argument when Kirk clearly sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise. But I understand your overall point.

Had Pike actually sacrificed himself in the process of dying, say to draw fire from Kirk and allow him to finish his attempt to take down Khan … That would have had even more emotional impact. But like so many of the “themes” in the film. They felt disconnected and unrelated to the whole.

Yes Harewood sacrificed himself, and Section 31 in the process, to save his daughter, but why? His daughter had already been saved. Where was the motivation to fulfill Khan’s terms? Or was Harewood just a man of his word regardless of the consequences?

And what of Kirk sacrificing himself, Uhura, Spock and the guards on Kronos? Had Khan not shown up, they would all have been dead. What was the message there? In order to follow Spock’s advice he violated regulations, defied a superior officer, and put his entire crew and the Federation at risk, with no auorization. I guess his demotion after Nibiru had no impact on him afterall.

And what of Scotty sensing danger to the ship in the torpedoes, yet turning his back on his “family” rather than stay and assist to ameliorate the perceived threat in any way possible?

Yes, you can weave together any kind of message from random events in a movie, but that doesn’t mean you’ll have a very pretty result. STID wanders around these and other themes, but generally lacks any focus to drive a particular message home. You can’t say the movie did not show us sacrifice, but you can say it didn’t do a very good job of informing us why it was important.

884. dmduncan - April 6, 2014

Killing Pike was needless, unrequired. It was that checkbox on their list of things to do that read “kill somebody important.”

885. dmduncan - April 6, 2014

Kirk would not have been mad if he didn’t lose somebody important? So all the people who joined the military after 9/11 to make the evildoers pay, and lost their own lives in the fight, did it because they lost somebody in the towers that day?

Last night i was watching Aliens and the thought occurred that corny stuff happens in movies because writers and directors don’t have the imagination to get what they want out of a scene without writing it unrealistically.

Example: Ripley is hanging with her arm twisted around a ladder wrung while a creature that must weigh upwards of 3000 pounds is supporting its weight by holding on to her ankle!

The creature is SUCKED out of the airlock by the mighty vacuum leaving Ripley strong and able enough, after that massive creature lost its grip on her ankle, to climb her way up out of the vacuum.

I guess Ripley just DIDN’T look strong enough a woman to suit Cameron’s taste until he wrote that part.

886. Ahmed - April 6, 2014

Star Wars: Episode VII is already shooting !

==========================

Disney Chief Reveals ‘Star Wars: VII’ Casting Almost Complete, Says Film Is Already Shooting

The new Star Wars — episode 7 in the nine-picture franchise — has already begun filming and most of the cast is now in place for the movie, Disney Studios chairman Alan Horn revealed April 2. “We have a lot of them [in place],” he said about the main actors, whose names have not been disclosed. “We’re just not completely done yet.”

Horn acknowledged there had been some problems getting the script right. “It’s all about the screenplay,” he said. “It has to be screenplay, screenplay, screenplay.” Asked if the screenplay was fully where it needed to be, he added: “It actually is now.” The script has been co-written by Lawrence Kasdan and J.J. Abrams, following an early draft by Michael Arndt.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/disney-chief-reveals-star-wars-693950

887. crazydaystrom - April 6, 2014

Thanks for the link Ahmed. These are very interesting times for genre films. But it goes without saying – Want Trek news! NEED Trek news!!!

I guess it didn’t go without saying.

888. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

#882 – “In order to follow Spock’s advice he violated regulations, defied a superior officer, and put his entire crew and the Federation at risk, with no authorization. I guess his demotion after Nibiru had no impact on him afterall.”

What? It was Admiral Marcus who violated regulations by ordering Kirk to find and kill Harrison in the first place. It was Spock who reminded Kirk of the regulations and his orders from Marcus were the ones that violated regulations and were morally wrong.

Kirk did not put his entire crew or the Federation at risk. It was Admiral Marcus who did that. Kirk tried to correct that.

889. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

#881 – “And if Khan is crying because he’s actually upset about losing his buddies, then, as you say, he comes off as a victim of circumstance which is very out of character.”

Anyone can be a victim of circumstance and that does make anyone in or out of character. Khan is not God, even though he may erroneously see himself as being someone/something like that, which means he can also be a victim of circumstance.

As for emotional behaviour like crying for the loss of those loved, well, Mafia men, who do all kinds of despicable acts, will be seen sincerely weeping at the funeral of their child or that of someone close within his own family. People are complicated, even those with obvious sociopathic tendencies. Harrison/Khan was human, hence the appearance of these contradictions.

890. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

#878 -Thank you, Disinvited, for your explanation. It was kinder and more informative that what Who Cares has been doing.

Suspended is a word I take to mean as something TEMPORARILY non-functional, not operational. A student gets suspended from attending school because of some infraction, but after the suspension is lifted and the student can return. So when I read this word in connection with a drivers licence, I take it to mean something similar to the temporary 6 month disqualification that was placed his international drivers licence if he remained in NZ.

It sounds more like a person has had their license stamped with something like “Restricted” detailing what those restrictions are and how long they remain in force. Could this be what Chris Pine has? Or, as I suspect, the whole business of his disqualification and reason just gets wiped clean, as if of no consequence or concern?

891. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

Oh, for an edit function – I missed one or two little words out and left one in. I do re-read my posts before I press “say it!” but still…oh dear…anyway, I’m sure you can work it out…:)

892. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

883. Curious Cadet – April 6, 2014

You can’t say the movie did not show us sacrifice, but you can say it didn’t do a very good job of informing us why it was important.

Right, I agree. You said it better than I did. What you said is what I mean by “developing the theme.” STID sets up the issue of family sacrifice as a potential theme in terms of exposition by providing several examples, but doesn’t bother developing the issue into a theme. As you said, they showed us a bunch of events but didn’t show why they’re important, what they mean, or how they might be relevant to our lives/humanity—there’s no lesson in STID, moral or otherwise. “Sometimes people sacrifice for people they care about” isn’t really a lesson but rather a mundane observation. “So what?” is the follow-up question that the writers didn’t bother trying to answer with regard to their would-be theme.

893. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

883. Curious Cadet – April 6, 2014

P.S. And also, as you suggested, some of the examples of familial sacrifice weren’t so good. Kirk’s sacrifice at the end is the best one, though of course it was just a variation on TWOK. But Khan and Harewood don’t provide particularly good examples of familial sacrifice if that were going to be developed into a theme. Even Spock’s would-be self-sacrifice in the volcano wasn’t a good example in that it was totally unnecessary and brought on by a decision (to interfere in the natural development of that culture) that defies the internal logic of the movie as Spock’s character would never have made it.

894. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

885. dmduncan – April 6, 2014

Example: Ripley is hanging with her arm twisted around a ladder wrung while a creature that must weigh upwards of 3000 pounds is supporting its weight by holding on to her ankle!

I see your point, but to be fair, the alien queen could have weighed much less than that. Consider how light yet strong insects are for their size. It’s because they don’t have much water in them. Humans are roughly 65% water and water is relatively heavy by volume. The aliens in the “Alien” movies, however, might be composed of substantially less water. They could also be made largely of very strong yet very light carbon compounds, for example. But, if we start tugging at that thread, questions arise that we’d rather not have to answer, like: how do they drive their space ships? If they are able to grip tools and technology with their over-sized claws, then how come we never see them use a single tool over the course of the entire set of movies?

895. dmduncan - April 6, 2014

894. Cygnus-X1 – April 6, 2014

Well…light weight material is relatively light weight, and a large amount of it is going to weigh a large amount. That creature was a LOT bigger than Ripley’s robot suit. And with all the crap oozing from the aliens when they open their mouths or being splattered every time one gets shot, they look look like they carry a lot of liquid under the armor.

I don’t accept that Ripley hangs on to that sized creature without joints disconnecting in several places and her writhing in agony out of the airlock with the creature.

And what exactly was it that pulled the creature out of the airlock? It was too weak to support itself? Arthritis in the hands, maybe? Or were we supposed to believe that the vacuum suction that Ripley fought her way up the ladder against was so strong that the alien couldn’t hold on–while Ripley could, carrying all that creature’s weight?

896. Marja - April 6, 2014

873 Disinvited, Thanks, I learned about Ctrl-Z awhile back, thank god. I tried it both times. Apparently what I had done twice — and by accident — was navigate away from the comment page! Criminey. Sometimes I hate this touchpad. I’ll make a note about Ctrl-Y, but IDK, would that have helped in my situation?
—————————————————————————————————
880 Cygnus “What did you learn from STID? And if you didn’t learn anything, was there at least a rich, meaningful, elucidating or otherwise thought-provoking illustration of a lesson that you already knew?” I have reiterated these above. And I think lessons about the emptiness of revenge and the harm done in its achievement are good ones for the target audience, who have a large series of videogames and other movies telling them that revenge is perfectly appropriate. For our generation these movies starred Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood, for the new generation there are a whole host of these.
—————————————————————————————————
882 Cygnus, “If Khan is actually just crying to gain Kirk’s sympathy in order to manipulate him, it would be consistent with Khan as a ruthless sociopath, but it weakens the whole attempt at a familial sacrifice theme” Not really, because Khan pretended to be a victim of circumstance and wept to manipulate Kirk [whom he has undoubtedly researched]; Kirk was doing what he was doing because of his familial feelings about Pike, and his underlying sense of justice on the whole — wanting to stop this terrorist at any cost. Khan called up for Kirk the sacrifice of his own father “anything you would not do for your family” — George’s family of crewmembers on the Kelvin and Kirk’s own family.

As Keachick points out, socio- and psychopaths are experts at pushing people’s buttons to achieve their goals. They appear perfectly reasonable and emotionally “human” while doing so. But they feel no guilt.
—————————————————————————————————-
883 Curious, “Had Pike actually sacrificed himself in the process of dying, say to draw fire from Kirk and allow him to finish his attempt to take down Khan … That would have had even more emotional impact. But like so many of the “themes” in the film. They felt disconnected and unrelated to the whole.”

I agree wholeheartedly about Pike, whom I would rather had died [if he "had" to die] taking heroic self-sacrificing action. As it was his death was empty [like real-life deaths often are, but this is "Star Trek"]. And the “check off the emotional impact box” by killing someone important is manipulative of the audience.

These are some of the flaws [along with those noted by Cygnus] that occur, because I think there is often a rush to finish production, to keep the movie under a certain time limit, so they rewrite scenes that would have made more sense for the film even before shooting. Or not. Maybe they want to keep people like me coming back again and again to seek the deeper themes and use our emotion to retcon how the scenes link up for the characters.

After I’d viewed the movie five times, I began to feel emotionally exhausted and yes, manipulated by it, but still, it has a lot of valuable fodder for angsty fan fiction, which I love to write.
—————————————————————————————————-
885 Duncan, Thank you for making this point. Injustice makes good people angry, and they seek a solution or resolution to the injustice. Kirk being a man of action who seeks justice [I know I keep saying that, but to me, that is a core element of his heroic character], he seeks to remedy the injustice. Unfortunately vengeance clouds his vision.

Some people joined up after 9/11 to seek vengeance; others joined up because they felt bringing the force of the US to bear on Al-Qaeda would put a stop to their horrible brand of terrorism. These latter volunteers for the service are the ones I admire more.
—————————————————————————————————-
893 Cygnus “Spock’s would-be self-sacrifice in the volcano wasn’t a good example in that it was totally unnecessary and brought on by a decision (to interfere in the natural development of that culture) that defies the internal logic of the movie as Spock’s character would never have made it.” Remember, this is an AU and this is a different Spock to our dear TOS Spock. This Spock has suffered considerable losses in his life and thus is sensitive to the loss of an entire culture/race. I have a feeling Spock may have thought he could “get away with” a mission to save without being seen, which was a fine distinction he made with regard to the Prime Directive, embracing this technicality to resolve the natural planetary genocide. He was upset with Kirk for “violating the Prime Directive” by revealing the Enterprise to the Nibiruans.

Also — another familial point — Spock does this in violation of his usual consideration for Uhura, ignoring “family” to achieve what he might have seen as a restoration to balance that which was upset by the destruction of Vulcan.
—————————————————————————————————-
Something I find interesting is the fact that, while I completely empathized with Spock in the first film and developed some positive feeling for Kirk [namely that he felt bad about what he did to Spock and later pulled Pike's -- and Earth's -- hash out of the fire], I saw many more flaws in that film because it was a simple “operatic villain seeks revenge on those he thinks guilty by punishing innocent people” plot.

At least STiD touched on some themes close to my heart; i.e. the emptiness of revenge-laden violence to answer violence or abuse; manipulation of the innocent [thus gullible] by the powerful and inimical forces or individuals; the creation of secret, ungovernable agencies; and the impact of terrorist actions on ordinary or heroic people.

897. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#885. dmduncan – April 6, 2014 894, Cygnus-X1 – April 6, 2014

I get the point that you are trying to make, but I have difficulty with your throwing your weight around in the weightlessness of space?

Also, thanks, as I was looking for a good excuse (To answer the question: does the ship have artificial gravity which could be a countering force?) to rewatch that film again.

898. ? - April 6, 2014

maybe they should revive gene roddenberry with the super blood and ask him how to write the next movie! XD

899. dmduncan - April 6, 2014

897. Disinvited – April 6, 2014

The giant mech suit fell on top of and pinned the alien queen mother to the outer airlock door and then Ripley tried to climb up out of the airlock to escape.

I suppose that might compel someone to make the case that the door had gravity and that once it opened…

Hilarious.

One piece of awkward leads to another.

900. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#896. Marja – April 6, 2014

Hey, the least I could do given that you’ve made my burden so easy in responding here such that all I need type is, “Yeah, what she said.”

Also, your mileage may vary but I have found in Firefox, at least, that most times if I can get back through the “go back one page” button’s history that even if the comment square was blank it will restore what was there.

#893 Cygnus

And while I’m reflecting on Marja’s eloquent replies, I want to take time to express my appreciation for your loyal opposition as she did earlier.

You make some excellent points about the rickety nature of the skeletal structure on which they chose to hang this tale and I appreciate your doing that.

After we are done with this discussion, we probably are still going to disagree and that’s okay. Along the way, some very interesting ideas were exchanged and concepts brought to light. And at the end of the day that’s all I ask of a STAR TREK.

#890. Keachick (Rose) – April 6, 2014

You are welcome and thanks, your contributions in this are appreciated as well.

Geesh, I suddenly feel as if I am making an acceptance speech at the Oscars, and don’t want to neglect mentioning anyone.

DM, CC, and Captain Slow you know I respect and appreciate your contributions as well.

Matt, Kayla, … I think I hear the orchestra drowning me out.

901. dmduncan - April 6, 2014

And if the rush of the ship’s air outward was strong enough to make the alien queen mother lose her grip, then why didn’t Ripley, who was much weaker, lose her grip first? Why was Ripley’s little noodle arms the strongest link in that chain?

902. Disinvited - April 6, 2014

#898. dmduncan – April 6, 2014

Or that the ship was accelerating in the opposite direction, but for how long would such a possible course correction need to last? Answer: Only long enough to keep from breaking her ankle. LOL.

903. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

895. dmduncan – April 6, 2014

Yeah, I think you’re right.

904. Keachick (Rose) - April 6, 2014

#896 – “As Keachick points out, socio- and psychopaths are experts at pushing people’s buttons to achieve their goals. They appear perfectly reasonable and emotionally “human” while doing so. But they feel no guilt.”

Yes, I agree that socio- and psychopaths are experts at pushing people’s button, but that is what I meant by my comment above. The comment I was referring to was the notion that Khan could not also be a victim of circumstance or could not feel the loss of those close as the rest of us might. I disagreed with those notions.

Actually Khan was indeed a victim of circumstance, in this timeline, at least, if we are to include what the comics reveal about this person’s early life. I once asked, I think it was round about the time of release of STID, if Khan could be deemed to have the same level of freewill that the rest of us supposedly have. I asked this because of the experimentation and genetic manipulation performed on this individual at an early age. There has yet to be a discussion, let alone any kind of answer.

I do recall seeing an early episode of the TV series Dexter which said that this man Dexter has learned to act as if he cared as others seemed to in order to appear *normal*, had to learn and constantly monitor his behaviour to the outside world, even to his girlfriend, so that he would not be “found out”. A mentor of sorts had realized that Dexter was a born killer, who seemed to feel nothing, lack any kind of sympathy or empathy, and taught him to channel his killer tendencies into killing only those who had themselves got away with murder. This is why Dexter became a cop, so that he would have a better way of knowing who was innocent and who was not.

I do not know if Khan is anything like Dexter. If he is, then so was Admiral Marcus. After all, Marcus fired on his own people in order to achieve his aims.

The present day military talk of collateral damage. The President orders drone strikes etc and people, some of them American citizens, are locked up without access to legal representation or trial and torture does go on.

Hmmm….

905. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

896. Marja – April 6, 2014
899. Disinvited – April 6, 2014

Marja, what exactly did STID teach you about the “emptiness of revenge?” It teaches you not to seek revenge because it didn’t work out for Khan? I just don’t see anything there. If you want an “emptiness of revenge” theme, TWOK did it fantastically well. But I don’t get anything out of STID on that.

As Disinvited said, we’ll probably still agree on a number of issues. Some things just come down to taste. But, the one further point that I would offer is this:

I believe that, while you both found more of value in STID than I did, if STID had been written, paced and composed better—having a better developed theme, a villain with a stronger motivation, more coherent plot, and some of the wall-to-wall action scenes replaced with substance, i.e. if STID were remade with heed paid to the criticisms made by myself, Curious Cadet and others—you, Marja and you, Disinvited would have liked the movie MORE than you already do. In other words, I believe that addressing criticisms raised would have made for a higher caliber movie that all of us would have enjoyed more.

906. Cygnus-X1 - April 6, 2014

899. Disinvited – April 6, 2014

#893 Cygnus And while I’m reflecting on Marja’s eloquent replies, I want to take time to express my appreciation for your loyal opposition as she did earlier.

Cheers! Right back atcha.

897. Disinvited – April 6, 2014
898. dmduncan – April 6, 2014

I think we can take it as given that the ship had some form of artificial gravity like ships in Trek. Otherwise, yeah, it would have been one logical inconsistency followed by another in a somewhat ironic sequence of events.

Still, I should point out that Aliens is one of my favorite movies. It’s not perfect, but for a sci-fi/horror/thriller it comes pretty damned close. Actually, I could go for watching that again right now, too. I would also like to mention how disappointed I was in James Cameron’s Director’s Cut of Aliens. The original cut was much better. Kind of a head-scratcher as to how Cameron could think that revisions such as restoring the scene with the auto-fire machine guns, during what had been the most effectively suspenseful and fear-inducing scene perhaps in cinematic history, would make for a better movie. The Director’s Cut strikes me as Lucasian (George) in that respect.

907. Curious Cadet - April 6, 2014

@888. Keachick (Rose),
“Kirk did not put his entire crew or the Federation at risk. It was Admiral Marcus who did that. Kirk tried to correct that.”

STID had a very complicated script to follow, but close examination shows this statement to be inaccurate.

Marcus told them to fire untraceable torpedoes from the edge of the Neutral Zone into an unoccupied area of Kronos to take out Harrison, which Kirk was more than willing to do. There were no regulations governing Marcus’ orders as acknowledged by Spock, who questioned their morality for executing a man without a trial, and the potential for starting a war with the Klingons. This is all confirmed with dialogue from the movie.

Kirk, eventually giving into Spock’s concerns, took it upon himself to disobey Marcus’ orders, personally violate Klingon space and attempt to capture Harrison, all substantialy increasing the likelihood that they would get caught, recognized, traced back to the Enterprise, convicted as spies, and ensuring intergalactic war with the Klingons. This was made all the more likely as Kirk went ahead with the plan even though the Enterprise was disabled and might be discovered before they could repair the damage so as to reasonably be expected to escape to safety should Kirk’s mission go wrong. And Kirk did all of this without consulting with anyone else, and forcing his crew to be accomplices in this new plan that did most likely violate any number of regulations, chief among them: crossing the Neutral Zone! At least in “The Enterprise Incident” Kirk behaved insanely to spare his crew after intentionally getting them captured.

So Kirk is guilty of defying a superior officers orders, morally questionable though they were, but carrying a significantly lower degree of risk than the reckless plan Kirk embarked on, which Spock didn’t seem to have any trouble with — despite the fact that it violated specific regulations, increased the odds of failure, dooming themselves, and the Enterprise, as well as starting a war with the Klingons — all to give an unquestioned murderer a fair trial that would likely result in his execution anyway.

Marcus may have lit the match, but Kirk threw gasoline on it. Yes he corrected one morally questionable aspect of Marcus’ orders, but he compounded several other moral and legal ones in the process.

908. Keachick (Rose) - April 7, 2014

#906 – You have got to be kidding me? So firing torpedoes on the planet of Kronos would not have started a war with Klingons, as opposed to simply taking a shuttle craft with a small crew to find an individual? Riiight….You are also trying to tell me that so long as you don’t cross the Neutral Zone, you can fire “great big torpedoes” at anyone and that does not violate anything? How do you consider this more moral than what Kirk did?

“all to give an unquestioned murderer a fair trial that would likely result in his execution anyway.”
I assume you mean “unquestionable”. So, like Marcus, I see you would have people play fast and loose with the justice system as well. Given that the Federation do not execute, whatever sentence handed down would not have been death. If Marcus’s plan had been carried out, Khan’s death would have occurred without the opportunity of a fair trial and war between the Federation and Klingons would have more than likely broken out.

Even if Kirk, Spock and Uhura had been captured, tortured and then killed, the Klingons would have found that the mission was to find/capture one non-Klingon person hiding out on their world and NOT to invade/start a war with the Klingons. Indeed, even Uhura told them the reason for her, Kirk and Spock’s presence there and warned them of the criminal in their midst.

The other thing of note is that the shuttle they were using, apart from not being a Starfleet vessel, was NOT armed. This would have been something the Klingons would have soon become aware of, therefore they could not claim that Kirk had any real hostile intentions towards their world. However, firing “great big torpedoes” says otherwise.

Yes, it was a hell of a risk but Spock and Uhura understood that this was the better option, given that such options as there were, all stunk.

909. Marja - April 7, 2014

904 Cygnus, “what exactly did STID teach you about the “emptiness of revenge?” It teaches you not to seek revenge because it didn’t work out for Khan?”

At the risk of repeating myself, The crew of the Enterprise suffered heavy losses and was nearly lost with all hands. I should think that was a “come to Jesus” moment for Kirk, and underlined the one he had when Marcus determined to destroy the Enterprise. Kirk may have, at last, understood the reasons behind much of his leadership training at the Academy!

I have said this a few times and say again, in case Mr Orci or the new writers look at this board, YES, I would appreciate it, in the next movie, if some of the Action!!! sequences were replaced by moments of more substance. Although I have to say I enjoyed watching “Run Spock Run!”

906 Curious, “defying a superior officers orders, morally questionable though they were, but carrying a significantly lower degree of risk than the reckless plan Kirk embarked on, which Spock didn’t seem to have any trouble with — despite the fact that it violated specific regulations, increased the odds of failure, dooming themselves, and the Enterprise, as well as starting a war with the Klingons — all to give an unquestioned murderer a fair trial that would likely result in his execution anyway.”

The beginning of his reckless plan, which begat truly terrible consequences, was to claim Khan so he could be tried by the Federation. Then Khan convinced him [using the "family" deception] to go along with a crazy plan. You know, the kind of plan where the hero, convinced, says, “It just … might … work!”

Agreed on your point about better writing making me like the movie better. I think instead of having my heartstrings jerked all the way through, it would have been better for them to engage my rational mind along with my heart, and reward rational thinking. They badly used Spock, when we further consider the plot’s flaws. At least Spock should have warned Kirk about the dangers of the plan snowballing into disaster: normally , he would have at least conjectured and reported.

But, to be consistent with my earlier arguments, Spock may have gone along because he himself was still emotionally compromised from all the terrible events he’d been through personally. Another heartstring plucked for me, but it fits in with the emotional line of the story: Spock is supporting his brother in arms, who tried, to their mutual regret, going along with that crazy “save the Nibiruans without being noticed” idea, no matter which one of them hatched it.

“At least in “The Enterprise Incident” Kirk behaved insanely to spare his crew after intentionally getting them captured.”

Kirk, in that third-season episode, was 36 years old and had had over a decade of experience, during which he came up through the ranks and had the supervision of seasoned captains. By this time he had learned well how to “baffle his opponents with bullsh*t.” And accomplished two ends: sparing his crew condemnation and getting Spock “inside” the Romulan command [I have mightily resisted a crude joke at the woman Romulan commander's expense and urge others to do the same].

899 Disinvited, Thanks for your comment on my comments, if I may say it that way. You’ve made quite a few points I heartily agree with; you conceptualize things that I don’t manage to.

I, too, appreciate Cygnus being “loyal opposition” — it’s nice to debate with an opponent who’s not hysterical or nasty.

And I appreciate your tip about Ctrl-Y — I’ll make it a point to come here in Firefox mode from now on.
——————————————————————————————–
Matt Wright, I see you rightfully withheld a further statement by MJ, whose missive I tried to post last night. I woke up today uncomfortable with the idea that I had submitted his apologies [and arguments!] on his own behalf — that I was being sort of a “mouthpiece” after you had banned him — and I appreciate your own logical projection that it would lead to further nonsense on this board. There were some denials there which did not fit with the general statements of apology within it.

910. Curious Cadet - April 7, 2014

@908 Marja,
“Kirk, in that third-season episode, was 36 years old and had had over a decade of experience, during which he came up through the ranks and had the supervision of seasoned captains.”

Exactly. This Kirk has all the power of being captain but none of the temperment. He jumped eagerly at Marcus’ immoral plan, then compounded it by making his entire crew complicit with his additional immoral and illegal actions. Not only was he prepared to fire the torpedoes Marcus gave him, but only after he invaded Klingon space, putting his crew directly in harm’s way, and engaging in a mission where if discovered would have exposed the Federation’s hand. The Klingons are not rational people, they’re not going to listen to a lot of explanations about why Kirk was there or who sent him, they’re just going to see an invasion of Federation spies led by James T, Kirk, Starfleet’s greatest hero. Kirk’s decision to send Uhura out to reason with them, after entertaining they come out shooting like Butch and Sundance, demonstrates how naive he was. They would have all been dead, or imprisoned for spying had Khan not come along and killed all of the Klingons. The Enterprise would have been impounded, the crew killed, and the ship likely used in the first attack on the Federation, all of which would have happened if not for Khan.

To see Kirk’s actions any other way is to view them through Rose-coloured glasses.

But I don’t see these as failures of Kirk’s, rather the failures of writing. As dmduncan is fond of saying, the writers had a list of tick boxes they needed to check, and they needed to get the crew onto Klingon to capture Khan, to show us how bad a dude Khan really was, no matter what Kirk had to do to get them there. But they just didn’t think. If they did they would have realized that they knew exactly where Khan was (in order to use the torpedoes in the first place) and could have just beamed him into the brig using Scotty’s transwarp beaming technology from outside Klingon space.

911. Cygnus-X1 - April 7, 2014

908. Marja – April 7, 2014

At the risk of repeating myself, The crew of the Enterprise suffered heavy losses and was nearly lost with all hands. I should think that was a “come to Jesus” moment for Kirk,

Marja, I didn’t know that your reference to revenge was in reference to Kirk.

It might’ve been a come to Jesus moment, but they didn’t bother to explore that as a theme. It’s a shame, really. Yet another missed opportunity.

Compare the self-reflection scene in TWOK after Spock dies where Kirk is talking to David and realizing/admitting that he’d never faced death up until that point. It wasn’t a long scene, but it was an important one that added a whole level of substance and meaning to the story. The most that I can recall along these lines from STID was Kirk’s little speech to Star Fleet at the end. But that was really just lip-service, again, the gesture of a theme—phoning it in after the script was done. “Yada yada sometimes we become the thing that we’re fighting against yada yada…this is a good example of why I complain about this movie (and ST09) as being superficial and shallow. Again the writers come up with a kernel of an idea for a theme, but then give it the most superficial treatment imaginable. We never got a scene where Kirk comes to grips with himself having crossed certain moral/ethical lines in pursuit of Khan and revenge-satisfaction, or Kirk having a dramatic moment-of-truth confrontation with Spock or someone else where the overly wrought captain is forced to admit that he’s become (ing) disturbingly like Khan. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if you played out a great scene like that in your imagination, assuming that it must have happened at some point during the story but they just didn’t show it to us. ;-)

912. Phil - April 7, 2014

@908. Looking at conversation where you guys are drilling in on specific behaviors, I keep coming back to my hunch that the omission of even a small amount of exposition that could have clarified so much was a deliberate act. I don’t like it, but being deliberately vague on so many important plot points seems almost self serving for the production team, in so much that if a production tanks, they can always fall back on a ‘well, I never’…argument in it’s defense.

Bob doesn’t admit to perceptions of a less then stellar effort. He’s happy to take his victory laps when discussing the box office, critical reception, or some positive aspect they created in the Trek universe. Bring up something negative, suddenly it’s not their fault. Lindelof seems to be taking the fall for STID, just like Bob was quick to blame Bay and Kruger for the offensive stereotypical robot rappers in Revenge of the Fallen. The STID script has been picked apart plenty. ST 09 was a good movie, but it’s plenty obvious the writers felt the need to address the few glaring plot holes it created. So, we ended up with them throwing all the proposed fixes in the blender – while hoping for a good outcome, all we ended up with were more lumps. Reminds me of the saying ‘if you can’t blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bulls**t’. While I enjoyed the movie, it is baffling….

My point – I think the studio probably insisted on some new direction for this. Bob is a fan, Bad Robot has done well by Paramount. I’m hopeful that new writers, a new director (would not be surprised if someone unexpected gets the job), and a renewed focus on Trek, as opposed to shoehorning in plot twists, phaserfire, and old characters gets us a Trek movie that builds on the promise of 09. If Khan and Carol return, then it’s more ‘greatest hits’…at which point we should all be very concerned.

913. Matt Wright - April 7, 2014

@ Marja — Actually that was automatic, since MJ is banned, any use of his name means the comment gets held for moderation for me to see what it is. I didn’t even know you tried to post it. I see it now of course, if you’d prefer I can just delete the pending comment, it’s up to you and how you feel about it.

914. Disinvited - April 7, 2014

# 905. Cygnus-X1 – April 6, 2014, 898. dmduncan – April 6, 2014

I agree more does not necessarily mean better.

The problem with the ship having gravity is then why wouldn’t the gas just stay in place as the atmospheres do on the planets? Why would it rush out?

Some possibilities:

1. Gravity on the outside skin of the craft is greater than on the inside surfaces. But who wants a micro and macro collision attracting spacecraft like that?

2.The ship is accelerating such that the effect is greater than its internal artificial gravity.

If we think of the forces dislodging the Alien as being those realized through turbulent and chaotic (possibly cyclonic) air flow instead of a unidirectional force in the direction of the opened door then the question is “Is it possible to separate the two under such circumstances and have one remain safe and intact and the other suffer severe damage and release from the other?” My personal experience with cyclones and hurricanes says if the turbulent air exiting the craft is cyclonic in nature, then the answer is, yes.

915. Ahmed - April 7, 2014

@909. Marja

Don’t allow that guy to use you as his “mouthpiece” as you put it. If & when the ban is lifted, then he can do it by himself.

916. Disinvited - April 7, 2014

#912. Phil – April 7, 2014

Well, I did say that I feel that what they ended up with is what I felt was “Safe” Trek. But I don’t think Bob set out with that in mind. And I am not sure how it ended up that way? Maybe it has something to do with the collaborative effort or that there were just too many cooks, or JJ spending too much time at the movieola dreaming of what it would be like to direct STAR WARS?

Whatever was draining the Trek out of this script, I believe Bob found some way to counteract it. I picture him as McCoy injecting the dead tribble with restorative serum; I’m not sure he knew what to expect from his efforts but it paid off to some small degree. I would not consider the operation a total success. But I’ll give Bob a pass on it. He delivered something that felt like a Star Trek. Certainly not the best one, but definitely not the worst. And while generally I prefer Trek not be or play it safe, I’m satisfied with STID as a placeholder, for now.

917. Curious Cadet - April 7, 2014

@908. Keachick (Rose),

I’m going to respond point by point, something I don’t usually do, because you make a lot of inferences and accusations that just aren’t intended.

1) “So firing torpedoes on the planet of Kronos would not have started a war with Klingons, as opposed to simply taking a shuttle craft with a small crew to find an individual? ”

No, I didn’t say this at all. I’m simply contrasting the orders as given to Kirk in the context of the movie. Without a doubt firing torpedoes into Klingon Space would be cause for war. However, Marcus said they were untraceable and “invisible to Klingon sensors” (whether they were or not), and therefore, given Marcus’ plan vs. Kirk’s plan, there was a much better chance that Marcus’ plan would achieve its goals without implicating the Federation, or getting anyone killed.

2) “You are also trying to tell me that so long as you don’t cross the Neutral Zone, you can fire “great big torpedoes” at anyone and that does not violate anything? How do you consider this more moral than what Kirk did?”

Again no. Spock & Kirk are flat-out telling you that in the movie — Marcus’ orders do not violate any regulations. And I never said anything about Marcus’s orders being more moral. However, Kirk in attempting to clean up the moral ambiguity of Marcus’ orders creates his own moral problems by putting his crew at risk and making them complicit with breaking regulations. He’s trading one bad decision for another. And not only that — Kirk has practically begged Marcus to do it — he’s as morally corrupt as Marcus here. And don’t get me started on how Kirk tried to do the right thing in ST09 by offering to save Nero and Spock actually told him not to.

3) “So, like Marcus, I see you would have people play fast and loose with the justice system as well. Given that the Federation do not execute, whatever sentence handed down would not have been death.”

Again no. Please separate what happens in the film from what I personally believe. And the Federation absolutely does execute at this time — In “The Menagerie” it is clearly stated the only death penalty left on the books is going to Talos IV. As this is a good 8 years before that episode took place, who knows what other death penalties are on the books? And this is a completely different universe, so who knows? Execution or life sentence, it is unquestioned that Khan is a terrorist and a murder, not to mention a traitor — putting others at risk to carry out a formality in the courts is a foolish waste of lives and in this case, more likely to start a war. Heck the Klingons might start a war just from knowing that Khan is on their planet should the Federation try to retrieve him through diplomatic channels. Plus it would reveal transwarp beaming to them. And Marcus knows something Kirk doesn’t — Khan’s a weapon the Klingons would exploit if they knew about him, but either way, Kirk knows he’s a top agent who can give top secrets to the enemy, and who’s apparently turned traitor. He’s more than a criminal, he’s a threat to the security of the entire Federation. So covert is the only way to go if you’re going to do it.

MORE>>

918. crazydaystrom - April 7, 2014

913. Matt Wright
Isn’t the passing of messages through a third party something of a circumvention of the ban? I understand about the first message and was myself curious what ‘Multi-fan’ had to say about the events but it seems like this could lead to him having his way with the forum again, as it were.

Of course whatever you decide is fine. We appreciate all you’re doing. Thanks.

919. Curious Cadet - April 7, 2014

@908. Keachick (Rose), MORE>>

4) “If Marcus’s plan had been carried out, Khan’s death would have occurred without the opportunity of a fair trial and war between the Federation and Klingons would have more than likely broken out.”

As I pointed out above, no it would not have. It is far more likely Kirk’s reckless path would have started a war, and in fact, had Khan not shown up, that’s exactly what would have happened, and everyone on the Enterprise would have been killed too.

5) “the Klingons would have found that the mission was to find/capture one non-Klingon person hiding out on their world and NOT to invade/start a war with the Klingons.”

If they kill everyone, how would the Klingons have found out what the true mission was? And why would they believe anyone? Was Khan going to turn himself in and confess (and even then, why believe him)? The Klingons are far from reasonable, as shown in every early Star Trek episode — Kirk’s words form Errand of Mercy: “they don’t take prisoners”. And from everything we were told in STID, the Klingons wanted war as much as Marcus did. Why would they treat invasion of their sovereign space as anything less than an act of war? This is all compounded by the fact that Kirk is an officer in Starfleet, known throughout the galaxy as the man who defeated Nero. For him above all people to be wearing civilian clothes and piloting a civilian ship, instantly brands him a spy and makes his actions suspect, as well as those of his crew, and the presence of The Enterprise. Nothing they say will be believed.

6) “therefore they could not claim that Kirk had any real hostile intentions towards their world. However, firing “great big torpedoes” says otherwise.”

Again, Kirk was armed, though his ship might not have been, and he was prepared to kill Klingons. Klingons died in the pursuit of his unarmed ship. His intentions clearly were hostile. Combined with the fact he was behaving covertly suggests his intentions were other than honorable from the Klingon’s point of view. Now as far as Kirk knew, according to Marcus, the torpedoes were stealth and untraceable. As far as the Klingons would know, there would be an unexplained explosion in an uninhabited section of Kronos. Would they care? Probably not. But if they chose to investigate would they even think to see if they came from space? And if they did, given what Marcus said about them, would they even be able to tell they came from the Neutral Zone, much less the Federation? Based on what Kirk knew, there was little chance for starting a war this way. However, Kirk’s actions all but guaranteed it.

920. Disinvited - April 7, 2014

#910. Curious Cadet – April 7, 2014

” If they did they would have realized that they knew exactly where Khan was (in order to use the torpedoes in the first place) and could have just beamed him into the brig using Scotty’s transwarp beaming technology from outside Klingon space.” – Curious Cadet

I believe the fact Kirk was given not 1, not 2, not 3, but 72 torpedoes to dispatch the sole individual, Khan, would tend to argue against any such knowledge. In fact, I’d argue that that number of weapons to take out the one man is very definitely what led Kirk to change his course of action in that he got an inkling that there’s something not quite kosher about Marcus’ order.

It seemed clear Marcus expected Kirk to fire all 72, if that’s what it took, regardless of the mass genocide that would result even if the warheads were only equivalent to standard issue torpedo yield.

921. Phil - April 7, 2014

@918 Impossible to enforce, unless the person fessed up to it. Marja had some second thoughts and went public with it, and I inferred from Matt’s comment that he was good letting Marja make the call. A completely appropriate response from all parties.

922. crazydaystrom - April 7, 2014

921. Phil
“…I inferred from Matt’s comment that he was good letting Marja make the call.

Yeah I did too, Phil. Just seems that if turns out to be an ongoing thing, and I’m not saying that it is or has been, the spirit of the ban has been lessened, if you will, or corrupted. I’m fine with whatever Matt and Marja decide on this. And am enjoying the decidely less-hateful Trekmovie.com.

923. Curious Cadet - April 7, 2014

@920. Disinvited,
“t seemed clear Marcus expected Kirk to fire all 72″

Dialogue from the movie is clear:

“You park on the edge of the Neutral Zone, you lock onto Harrison’s position you fire, you kill him and you haul ass.”

“Once we’re en route, I want you to transmit a targeted comm burst to Harrison’s location.”

“I am detecting a single life sign in the Ketha Province.”

“Mr. Sulu, I think we found our man.”

It seems everyone was highly confident that it would be no problem to locate Harrison, even from the Neutral Zone.

I’m not sure what the number of torpedoes and payload has to do with it, beyond speculation. The Ketha Province is completely uninhabited. We have no idea what kind of payload they carry, nor whether their impact will have any effect on Kronos outside of the target area. Marcus seems to suggest they won’t by his confirmation with Spock that the area is uninhabited.

Also, Marcus never told Kirk to fire the entire payload at Khan. That was all on Kirk, or more specifically Mr. Sulu. Marcus could have simply given Kirk the torpedoes as an upgrade to his armament as the fleet’s flagship. If I had to guess based on Kirk’s inconsistent behavior, I would say that threat was communicated out of the same anger that prompted him to pummel Khan with a dozen inaffective punches, and since Sulu is the one who actually threatened it, likely his nervous inexperience with being in command for the first time.

I don’t think Kirk thought twice about it. Neither did Spock, since he never mentioned it, even after Scotty resigned over it. In fact, that’s one of the of the big problems with the plot as presented — why would Kirk under any circumstances fire all 72 torpedoes? Since we know Marcus planned for Kirk to get caught, we now know the torpedoes probably weren’t invisible to the Klingons, and they would have traced them right back to the Enterprise parked, and disabled, at the Neutral Zone. Marcus was probably planning that however many Kirk used to kill Khan, whatever remained would be used defending the Enterprise against the Klingon armada, and any left unfired would be destroyed along with the Enterprise and all witnesses, thus starting the war Marcus sought.

924. Bob - April 7, 2014

They’ll screw this one up too.

925. dmduncan - April 7, 2014

909. Marja – April 7, 2014

Matt Wright, I see you rightfully withheld a further statement by MJ, whose missive I tried to post last night. I woke up today uncomfortable with the idea that I had submitted his apologies [and arguments!] on his own behalf — that I was being sort of a “mouthpiece” after you had banned him — and I appreciate your own logical projection that it would lead to further nonsense on this board.

***

Ha ha, of course it will lead to further nonsense. It already is. He’s still trying to dominate and is being somewhat successful, which is positive reinforcement to keep doing it.

926. Disinvited - April 7, 2014

#923. Curious Cadet – April 7, 2014

Well, I definitely disagree about Sulu. He made the threat because that was Marcus’ (and Kirk’s) authorization.

Kirk has to think with the information he’s given. Under what possible scenario could he make sense that he is supposed to use the bulk of top secret untraceable EXPERIMENTAL (OK maybe that’s why they needed 72 to assure a kill.) long range torpedoes that his own Chief Engineer warned would be a crap shoot in terms of leaving the ship combat viable if blindly resorted to in said combat?

I don’t have the movie at my disposal so correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t E drop out of warp on the edge of the Klingon Empire only to discovered that its warp core was out of whack and nobody on the ship let alone in its command thought, “Damn, Scotty was right.”?

The intel Sulu has got from the Mudd ship excursion is that Klingon Patrols travel in threes. He has to wonder “How long are these top secret untraceable torpedoes going to remain so if I have to use them against patrolling Klingon starships if they pursue the fleeing landing party across the Neutral Zone?”

927. dmduncan - April 7, 2014

923. Curious Cadet – April 7, 2014

I can’t speak about what Kirk, Spock, or any other character probably thought, but I do wonder what the writers thought.

Was Marcus planning to rendezvous with and destroy the Enterprise himself all along (thus getting rid of ALL the evidence) when he says he never meant to spare Kirk’s crew?

928. dmduncan - April 7, 2014

914. Disinvited – April 7, 2014

Writers and directors underthink. Fans fix their mistakes by overthinking.

929. Disinvited - April 7, 2014

#927. dmduncan – April 7, 2014

After rewatching it, I slo-moed it and the Alien had a grip on her shoe which was what slipped off causing it to exit the vehicle. Of course the question then becomes “How low an artificial gravity did that ship have for that shoe to stay on so long?” And of course the answer is “as long as it takes to serve the product placement.”

Funny thing is I couldn’t make out the shoe brand. Reebok?

930. Keachick (Rose) - April 7, 2014

“The beginning of his reckless plan, which begat truly terrible consequences, was to claim Khan so he could be tried by the Federation. Then Khan convinced him [using the "family" deception] to go along with a crazy plan. You know, the kind of plan where the hero, convinced, says, “It just … might … work!””

That is just nonsense. Kirk had already decided to bring John Harrison back to stand trial. He could have killed him but after considering what Spock had said, decided to do what was more morally defensible. He was not about to change his mind, even after Harrison revealed himself to be this Khan and told of what Marcus had done. In fact, when Kirk realized he needed to enlist Khan’s help, he was very clear that he would see to it that Khan stand trial and answer for his crimes. Kirk did not need anymore “convincing”.

Yes, Kirk was ordered to fire on Kronos in order to kill Harrison. At this point, Kirk knew only a small part of the story re John Harrison and he had witnessed Harrison fire on SF Headquarters. In fact, it was he who disabled the helicopter and got a really good look at this terrorist firsthand. He could formally identify Harrison as the perpetrator, probably the only person who could.

Well, that’s the problem with going “covert”. People become laws unto themselves, with no need to account for anything. Kirk and Spock decided to do what was legal and be accountable.

I am too tired right now to attempt to explain – again – my view of what occurred and why it needed to happen as it did. Kirk did not create any more legal and moral dilemmas that were already in place as soon as Kirk volunteered for this illegal, covert mission.

Klingons are not the only irrational ones… my glasses are just fine and very pretty as well…Thank you…

931. Keachick (Rose) - April 7, 2014

edit: “…any more legal and moral dilemma that WERE NOT already in place…”

932. dmduncan - April 7, 2014

928. Disinvited – April 7, 2014

I am torn between commenting and speechlessness at the increasing wackiness.

933. Vultan - April 7, 2014

Yep, it was Reeboks Ripley wore in Aliens. And that’s really what the Queen was after—the shoes. Because the movie is essentially about womanhood, or as James Cameron sees womanhood.

Children, eggs, and fighting over shoes. Makes perfect sense. ;-)

934. Marja - April 7, 2014

@ Matt Wright,

Please withhold the comment that was forwarded to me. I don’t think it would really add a great deal to the previous comment. Suffice it to say, he’s very sorry; he made apologies to many people here, he will behave better in the future &c.

Thanks for holding the comment pending my decision.

935. Marja - April 7, 2014

928 Duncan,Yes, I think Marcus was just that evil. What did he care about the hundreds of crewmembers of the Enterprise as compared with the glory that would accrue to him for preventing *millions* of deaths in the war Marcus thought was sure to occur?

& 929 LOL, Trekfans are very good at RetCon. I’ve spent years having fun in just that way, either writing “between the scenes” or “scenes we’d like to see” fanfic. We love to hash these things out on these threads — it’s fun to see what other possibilities and explanations there are — and we may just be giving the writers some food for thought. It could happen!

936. Marja - April 7, 2014

913 Phil, It could be that the writers leave some things murky because — should there be a TV series out of this Trek — they can fill in the gaps later and have more flexibility. Though it seems to many of us that putting the genie back in the bottle with Transwarp Beaming and Khan’s Life-Giving Elixir is going to be a challenge.

Then there is the darker thought, at least in my mind, that the movie rushed by apace and some points were deliberately left confusing so that fans would see the movie several times to make sense of it. That’d get the box office numbers up for sure.

937. Marja - April 7, 2014

931 Rose, “The beginning of his reckless plan, which begat truly terrible consequences, was to claim Khan so he could be tried by the Federation. Then Khan convinced him [using the "family" deception] to go along with a crazy plan. You know, the kind of plan where the hero, convinced, says, “It just … might … work!””

I was talking about Kirk accompanying Khan to the Vengeance. When Kirk thought Khan was accompanying him.

938. Marja - April 7, 2014

My 938 to Rose

i.e., I admire Kirk for accepting Khan’s surrender. But Kirk should have let Khan stay in the brig.

939. Curious Cadet - April 7, 2014

@930 Keachick,
“Kirk and Spock decided to do what was legal and be accountable.”

I’m pleased that you see Marcus’ actions for what they were. But that sentence is absolutely wrong. Kirk and Spock embarked on even more covert illegalities in order to be “accountable”. Sorry but that’s what’s in the film — it’s not opinion. They took it upon themselves to violate actual regulations without telling anybody in authority. That is the definition of covert. And Marcus had nothing to do with those plans, so they have to take full responsibility for them. As the old saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right. And Kirk and Spock embarked on a whole host of wrongs to make Marcus orders right.

940. Curious Cadet - April 7, 2014

@926. Disinvited,
“Well, I definitely disagree about Sulu. He made the threat because that was Marcus’ (and Kirk’s) authorization.”

Sulu is the only person in the entire film who threatens to unleash all 72 torpedoes on Harrison. Nobody else ever suggests doing that, much less authorizing that. Kirk was NEVER told to use all 72 torpedoes he was given, so there is NO such scenario out of which he has to make sense. The fact that all 72 torpedoes can be loaded at once, as later noted, suggests that it would not be unusual for the Enterprise to carry 72 or more loaded torpedoes, particularly when embarking on a dangerous mission near enemy space.

Further, there’s nothing “experimental” about the torpedoes. Marcus says only this about them: “As part of our defensive strategy, 31 developed a new photon torpedo. Long-range and untraceable, it would be invisible to Klingon sensors.”

_______________
“I don’t have the movie at my disposal so correct me if I’m wrong…”

You really should Google up the transcript. It makes this so much easier, as I am doing nothing but quoting what’s in the film. But I don’t really follow your point after that.

941. Cygnus-X1 - April 7, 2014

934. Marja – April 7, 2014

@ Matt Wright, Please withhold the comment that was forwarded to me. I don’t think it would really add a great deal to the previous comment. Suffice it to say, he’s very sorry; he made apologies to many people here, he will behave better in the future &c.

I mean…look, I really don’t want to be talking about this issue — REALLY — but, seriously? This guy was an unmitigated asshole to people here for YEARS — YEARS! I am not exaggerating. I have quite intact memories of visiting this site every few months since 2007 and all too often having my comments rejoined by this “MJ” who seemed to go out of his way to be nasty and mean to me in response to my comments regarding whatever Star Trek issue I was commenting about. And he had this unmistakeable attitude that he was THE BOSS of this site. I don’t think that anyone will deny that. And how many people did he drive off over the years? I know specifically of several, and I didn’t even bother trying to keep count, as I wasn’t aware of what he was doing.

And come to find out that he’d been manipulating and lying to everyone here for the better part of a year, and AS SOON as he is caught, he begins apologizing and promising to be good and so forth? I mean…come on…. Look, I really don’t want to spend any more time on this, but the guy has many, if not all, of the attributes of a sociopath. I’m sorry. I seriously don’t want to go ad hominem on anyone here. But that guy stands out as…how shall I put it…”distinct” from all of the other posters I’ve seen at this site. The only other posters that I’ve ever seen here be as nasty as MJ were responding to him and had been instigated by him into a combative posture. And we find out that MJ had a whole psychological warfare strategy with regard to this site. He fake posted as 8 non-existent people for the sole purpose of silencing people with views that differed from his. That’s not just some accident or “gosh, I didn’t realize that I wasn’t being nice this whole time.” OK, I’m done with this. Back to Trek!!!!

942. Cygnus-X1 - April 7, 2014

914. Disinvited – April 7, 2014

The problem with the ship having gravity is then why wouldn’t the gas just stay in place as the atmospheres do on the planets? Why would it rush out?

That’s called “diffusion.” It’s a physical property of matter, which tends to move from an area of greater concentration to an area of lesser concentration. Outer space is an area of EXTREMELY lesser concentration. Compared to the atmosphere that we breathe, outer space is basically empty. So, when you open the cargo-bay-doors of a spaceship, all of the air in the ship will naturally rush out into the empty vacuum of space.

943. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

#932. dmduncan – April 7, 2014

Only half serious, I was having fun with it. Vultan, came up with the response I was expecting.

#933. Vultan – April 7, 2014

LOL. Excellent. And why wouldn’t the Queen covet them? Reeboks are not only stylish but they provide great ankle support.

#940. Curious Cadet – April 7, 2014

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on the orders to use all 72 to dispatch Khan. However I will note Spock used all 72 against him and they still weren’t enough to do the job Marcus intended which I believe supports my contention.

#941. Cygnus-X1 – April 7, 2014

I get that but if Earth norm gravity on a tiny ship isn’t enough to hold on to it then what I was missing is that it had to be pressurized in a tiny space for the living beings from Earth to be able to breath it?

944. Cygnus-X1 - April 8, 2014

942. Disinvited – April 8, 2014

I get that but if Earth norm gravity on a tiny ship isn’t enough to hold on to it then what I was missing is that it had to be pressurized in a tiny space for the living beings from Earth to be able to breath it?

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking, but you seem to be correlating artificial gravity with artificial atmosphere, both on a space ship. Don’t correlate them. They’re both artificial things being re-created on a spaceship (that’s the conceit) and not the same things as their counterparts on Earth (or any other planet). The artificial gravity on the spaceship is not necessarily related to the air that they’re breathing on that ship.

945. Cygnus-X1 - April 8, 2014

When the cargo-bay-doors open, the air in the ship rushes out into space. That has nothing to do with the artificial gravity on the ship.

946. Cygnus-X1 - April 8, 2014

Technically, the diffused air, after it’s left the cargo bay and rushed out into the vacuum of outer space, might remain hovering around the ship—depending on how the ship’s artificial gravity worked—but that’s not really relevant to the above discussion.

947. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@942 Disinvited,
“I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on the orders to use all 72 to dispatch Khan.”

With all due respect there is nothing to disagree about. I have a transcript of the movie, NOBODY ever orders Kirk to fire all 72 torpedoes at Harrison. Sulu comes up with that all on his own. Kirk tells Sulu exactly what to say — “You tell him you have a bunch of real big torpedoes pointed at his head and if he doesn’t play nice you’re not afraid to use them”. And then Sulu says something else. In my estimation, this is somebody second guessing the mess of a plot line these torpedoes are, and the writers trying to explain how Marcus planned on getting rid of all the torpedoes with Khan’s people in them … unfortunately none of it makes any sense.

————————-
“However I will note Spock used all 72 against him and they still weren’t enough to do the job Marcus intended which I believe supports my contention.”

Earlier you mentioned that the resulting explosion would have been genocidal to Kronos. Now you say it supports the opposite. As a fan, you can come up with any old convoluted explanation from the writer’s train wreck of a script to explain anything you want. The probability is that this was yet another poorly thought out exposition by the writers. The torpedoes couldn’t very well do the damage they should have caused, and leave behind anything with which to decimate San Francisco when the Vengeance crashed. But the fact is, there’s nothing in the movie setting up the need to fire all 72 torpedoes. The fact that it is said they can pinpoint Harrison and thus surgically take him out, one torpedo should do the job. Based on what the average movie-goer knows about real torpedoes and has seen in Star Trek, no more than a couple would be needed to assure the job done. And unless Marcus said something like “we had to compromise the payload in these torpedoes to make them stealth so you’ll have to fire all 72 to equal the impact of one normal torpedo — make them count because you only have one shot with all 72 of them”, then Kirk has no reason to expect he will have to fire all 72.

But based on what’s actually said in the movie, this is Mr. sulu being over zealous, as driven home by McCoy’s ham-fisted line “Mr. sulu, remind me never to piss you off”. It’s the setup for an eye-rolling punch line. Nothing more.

948. Phil - April 8, 2014

@936. Given the apparent shadiness some Federation representatives seem to represent, I’m still of the opinion that this Federation might actually be on the verge of evolving into the Terran Empire. There are problems afoot when a Starfleet Admiral can just decide to take the Federation to war and civilian oversight is either oblivious to it, or complicit in the action. Asides from Kirk and Spock going Lone Ranger to fix the problem, I can’t recall anything from the story suggesting there were consequences to the actions…

I can understand some vagueness to minor subplots, but that wasn’t the case with STID. Every major plot point was a bit fuzzy, at best.

949. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@936. Marja,
“the movie rushed by apace and some points were deliberately left confusing so that fans would see the movie several times to make sense of it.”

This. Would. Explain. So much. ST09 had similar problems too, but nothing like STID. Not sure if it’s Orci or Abrams.

One thing is for certain, these guys would produce one frustrating murder mystery. Even after it’s out on BluRay with transcripts available, people would still be asking how the murderer got into the bedroom locked from the inside. We’d only know who the murderer was because the movie told us, even though the evidence points to someone else.

950. Vultan - April 8, 2014

#943

Probably best not to look at Aliens too closely. In reality a creature like the Queen most likely wouldn’t be able to support itself under normal conditions. Exoskeletons make for lousy support in large animals.

951. Cygnus-X1 - April 8, 2014

942. Disinvited – April 8, 2014

I get that but if Earth norm gravity on a tiny ship isn’t enough to hold on to it then what I was missing is that it had to be pressurized in a tiny space for the living beings from Earth to be able to breath it?

I understand now what you were asking.

Yes, the air on the ship is pressurized to re-create the pressure of Earth atmosphere. The force of the pressurized air diffusing out into space is stronger than the force of the artificial gravity on the ship.

952. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

# 940. Curious Cadet – April 7, 2014

“You really should Google up the transcript. It makes this so much easier, as I am doing nothing but quoting what’s in the film.” – Curious Cadet

I tried but I was unable to find any legitimate verifiable source which is odd as closed caption transcripts of filmed Trek are usually readily available.

http://www.simplyscripts.com/s.html

#947. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

“Earlier you mentioned that the resulting explosion would have been genocidal to Kronos. Now you say it supports the opposite” – Curious Cadet

You say that as if it were mutually exclusive. Need I remind you that the crew of Vengeance did not survive. It was a massacre at the very least even with that’s ship’s reduced crew requirements, and I’m sure even you would admit that its increased size meant that it could have easily housed numbers far in excess of the E’s 400 from which would we could estimate a maximum possible 72 torpedoes death yield.

I’ll try to ease off on some of the STID script’s hype: Marcus thought it would take mass killings on the level of using all 72 torpedoes to rid himself of Khan, but Spock’s actions proved him wrong in that the mass killing of the Vengeance’s entire crew failed to bring about Khan’s demise.

When I think of Marcus’ plan in regards to Khan and instigating a Klingon war I’m reminded of Meyer’s quote from TWOK, “You’ve managed to kill just about everyone else. But like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target.”

953. Phll - April 8, 2014

@949. Which is strange, as Sleepy Hallow is basically a murder mystery, and it’s a decently written show. I’m assuming that because Bob has writing credits, that he’s actually writing ….

954. Phll - April 8, 2014

Lets not get to excited about what 72 torpedoes can do. When they went off in Vengeance all they did was blow a hole in her side. Apparently their superior ability was in range, not yield.

955. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@952. Disinvited,
“closed caption transcripts of filmed Trek are usually readily available.”

Which is what I have. I downloaded it shortly after the BluRay came out, not sure from what site. This appears to be the actual file name for the subtitle file so I presume it’s allowed to post:

Star.Trek.Into.Darkness.2013.720p.BluRay.x264.YIFY.srt

_______________
“Marcus thought it would take mass killings on the level of using all 72 torpedoes to rid himself of Khan, but Spock’s actions proved him wrong in that the mass killing of the Vengeance’s entire crew failed to bring about Khan’s demise.”

Again, nowhere in the movie does Marcus ever indicate he wants Kirk to fire all 72 torpedoes at Harrison. Saying that was his order is unfounded speculation at the very best.

And Vengeance’s entire crew was about a dozen people based on the film, so I think you meant “potential crew” per your argument. But as Phil pointed out, very little damage was done, certainly nothing on a genocidal scale. And I agree with Phil, the superior ability was likely in range, and targeting ability. If we are going to drag out your interpretation to the nth degree, then perhaps all 72 torpedoes were required to be fired in order to assure at least one found their target considering the distance from the Neutral Zone to Kronos. But I maintain that is a ridiculous premise in general, for which there are better solutions as I have proposed.

956. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@953. Phll,
“as Sleepy Hallow is basically a murder mystery, and it’s a decently written show. I’m assuming that because Bob has writing credits, that he’s actually writing”

I don’t disagree. However, any TV series will have a team of writers, some as many as 9 or more for a network drama. While I’m sure Bob is writing, the degree of his contribution is definitely questionable considering what else is on his plate. One argument for the series excellence is the numerous other contributing writers are raising the overall bar. The other is that Abrams is the influence that is lowering the bar for Orci’s writing in Star Trek. Or a combination of the two.

957. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

#950. Vultan – April 8, 2014

You posted that and not only had I rewatched it but I checked out the extras where they show the puppet system of external wires and pulleys to do just what you typed. I got a vivid flashback of how very right you are.

BTW I was aghast to discover that I was totally fooled by the loader which Cameron designed from the ground up.Thought it was a real exo-suit Hollywooded up, but it was a life-sized (as well as other sizes) puppet, just like the Alien Queen.

#951. Cygnus-X1 – April 8, 2014

Now we are in sync. Yes, gotcha. Thanks.

958. Ahmed - April 8, 2014

@ 953. Phll – April 8, 2014

“@949. Which is strange, as Sleepy Hallow is basically a murder mystery, and it’s a decently written show. I’m assuming that because Bob has writing credits, that he’s actually writing ….”

Bob only wrote the first two episodes of the series, “Pilot” & “Blood Moon” while Alex wrote 4 episodes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sleepy_Hollow_episodes

959. Phil - April 8, 2014

The point being, on Sleepy Hallow, is that they (collectively) have a quality production to their credit – it does demonstrate that they are capable of producing content with substance. Obviously, to what degree, will be up to the individual to determine.

It’s easy for us armchair critics to elevate or marginalize materials or individuals based on personal bias. BSG isn’t devalued solely because Ron Moore was involved with ST:Generations, easily one of the worst Trek movies ever made. K/O and BR are businessmen as well as creative talents, I’d like to think that they understand that in order to continue making money with this franchise, they need to do better with their next effort. They have shown themselves capable with other projects, so they need to show themselves capable with Trek again.

960. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

#955. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

“But I maintain that is a ridiculous premise in general.” – Curious Cadet

Well. if you are going to start asserting that STID has some flimsy and ridiculous premises. Then you may recall from our previous discussions on other aspects of this film that I have to agree with you – but then where will this exchange go?

In a half-hearted attempt to redeem it, allow me to say that at the end of the day Admiral Marcus seemed to be one serious nutter, and, if indeed he was, his ridiculous actions make some sort of script sense, but this has to shred the whole notion of Starfleet Psych Evaluations of officers in command. And to some degree, the scene where Kirk shirks and shakes off McCoy’s request, indicates the writers were aware of this.

#948. Phil – April 8, 2014

You may be right. The above does further support your Terran notion.

#954. Phll – April 8, 2014

I have to agree to yield ambiguity. I indicated as much when I said “…if the warheads were only equivalent to standard issue torpedo yield.”

However, doesn’t a lower yield increase the likelihood of needing to resort to using more and not less?

961. Ahmed - April 8, 2014

@959. Phil

“K/O and BR are businessmen as well as creative talents, I’d like to think that they understand that in order to continue making money with this franchise, they need to do better with their next effort.”

You are mistaken in your thinking. Why they need to do better next time around when they managed to make ” two biggest Star Treks in a row with best reviews ” & the fact that STID made more than $467,365,246

962. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

#955. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

Thank you very much.

Now I know how Marcus beamed Carol off the E:

1290
01:17:39,400 –> 01:17:40,811
- SULU: Shields are dropping.
- We’re defenseless, sir.

963. Keachick (Rose) - April 8, 2014

#939 – “@930 Keachick,
“Kirk and Spock decided to do what was legal and be accountable.”
I’m pleased that you see Marcus’ actions for what they were. But that sentence is absolutely wrong. Kirk and Spock embarked on even more covert illegalities in order to be “accountable”.”

You are not making sense at all. And, what about this bit about you being pleased that I see Marcus’s actions for what they were? I have ALWAYS seen these things, right from 9 May 2013.

I do not see that Kirk and Spock were being more covert, illegal. As I said before, how is firing, unprovoked, torpedoes on a planet constitute less covert illegalities, than going down on that planet in a vessel that is unarmed, and only carrying weapons that a person can be reasonably able to carry?

Both are violating foreign territory/air space, but the plan that Marcus would have had them carry out will have caused much more collateral damage, than the mission that Kirk and Spock embarked on. That is my point. Who was Kirk to turn to get authorization? I suppose he could have suggested his amended plan to Admiral Marcus, then again Admiral Marcus had been more than clear from the outset as to how he wanted this Harrison guy dealt with. This was even before the attack occurred on SF Headquarters. Just how aggressive and adamant Marcus was even caused Pike to raise his head…(Kirk was too busy trying to work out what was in the bag).

We saw just how Marcus dealt with Kirk’s transgression – to blow them all away. *Justice* swift and sure…:(

It seems that this James Kirk can’t win any which way, either in this alternate Star Trek universe, or with most viewers here in the 21st century. He keeps getting done for doing the more right thing, or the less wrong thing. He is being dumped on by all and sundry for preventing loss of life (Nibiru) and for minimising whatever collateral damage could have taken place had he fired any of those long range torpedoes.

(Just because an area of a country/planet is not inhabited does not mean that anybody fires missiles/torpedoes at it, that either now or in the future, those people are not going to notice and take action. In fact, Marcus was counting on it!)

I don’t think that either Marcus or Kirk intended that all 72 torpedoes be fired, however once the first one or two had hit Klingon, then it is more than likely that the Enterprise would need to use the rest…once again, Marcus was counting on it.

Sulu’s threat was more of a bluff to flush out/get a response from Harrison – it worked! As we know from the prime universe, Kirk could be something of a good poker player…

And yet so many people complain that these latest Star Treks are all action whizz bang presenting no moral or other conundrums worthy of careful consideration on the part of viewers. Surely, you jest…this oft copied and repeated statement has to be one of the biggest jerk-offs within the last five years…holy moly. Sorry, had to say it – finally!

964. Keachick (Rose) - April 8, 2014

Edit – “(…does not mean that IF anybody…those people LIVING IN THAT COUNTRY/PLANET are not… In fact, Marcus was counting on the fact that they would!)”

“…one or two had hit KRONOS…”

Sorry about the silly mistakes.

Anyway, must get on. As my sister put it, when sending photos of our mother’s present condition, “…auditioning for a horror movie”, I need to visit a hospital to see my mum who had a nasty fall, requiring part of her head to be stapled. When my sister arrived at the hospital and got to see just how much blood mum had lost, she promptly fainted. She is OK. Mum is lucid, ie knows where she is, who we are, what day it is etc, but far from ready to be discharged.

As I said – must get on. Au revoir…

965. Keachick (Rose) - April 8, 2014

darn it – “We saw just how Marcus MEANT TO DEAL with Kirk’s transgression – to blow them all away.”

That’s better…bye

966. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@959 Phil,
“They have shown themselves capable with other projects, so they need to show themselves capable with Trek again.”

Agreed. I am the first to say that no one individual is responsible for STID. It seems like a collective hive of bad decisions. The deleted scenes seem like confirmation of this. No wonder the DVD extras were spread out over multiple offerings, with the deleted scenes being offered unnanounced in the most obscure of them. Perhaps the simplest explanation is that the production script included everything but the kitchen sink, and despite over 3 years in the crafting, was still undergoing major changes even as the cameras began to roll, by all involved, right through the final cut. I’m no filmmaker, but that just seems like a poor way to make a strong film, and suggests to me that nobody knew which version of the film they were making at any given time.

967. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

##955. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

About Vengeance;

1597
01:33:00,920 –> 01:33:02,604
The ship is designed
to be flown by minimal crew,

1598
01:33:02,720 –> 01:33:03,767
one, if necessary.

And that’s all they wrote. So, as you yourself would point out, we have no information on how many crew members would be required for combat – only that it takes as few as one to fly it.

Based on the swarm of shuttles Scotty successfully hid among to enter, it would be reasonable to assume more than a few were aboard.

968. Phil - April 8, 2014

@961. Your premise is valid if you believe that everyone in the entertainment industry believes their own PR. Clearly, studios and production companies debrief, so there is no doubt that occurred with STID as well. The question will be, did they learn from the STID experience? That remains to be see,

@964. Rose, I have no idea how old your mom is, but as she bumped her head, if the hospital didn’t do some imaging, insist on it. Older folks are a bit more susceptible to strokes from blows to the head, that can be prevented if caught early. Best wishes for a speedy recovery to mother Rose…

@960. Yes, it would. While I addressed the comment to you, it was generally aimed at speculation that the Khan torpedoes were capable of planetary genocide.

969. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

#966. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

Generally, I agree, but then there’s CASABLANCA

970. Ahmed - April 8, 2014

Sony screened The Amazing Spider-Man 2 in UK today, ASM 2 is written by Bob, Alex & Jeff Pinkner

==========================
Early Reactions to THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2

Given the sheer magnitude of Sony’s marketing, it may feel like we’ve already seen The Amazing Spider-Man 2, but in fact the film had its first public screening just a few hours ago.

As such, the first reactions to director Marc Webb’s superhero sequel are now online and the verdict is…kind of all over the place. Some were over the moon about the pic, some more reserved, and others downright negative. The one agreeable factor seems to be the film’s unevenness, as even those who ultimately enjoyed the effort admitted that it was a bit scattershot.

That’s the risk you run when you up the ante in the villain department and inflate the scope of the film (which is also in service to expanding the Spider-Man universe for future films).

@olilyttelton

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2: Terrible. Not so much a movie as a bunch of scenes, almost none of which are any good.

@montimer
In spite of a slightly shaky opening, I really enjoyed The Amazing #Spider-Man 2. Garfield and Stone are fantastic. Wonderful chemistry.

@FrankieDaWriter
The Amazing #Spiderman 2 gets it all quite right: emotional punches, humor, thematic strength & character development. A. Garfield is superb

@emmdib
Amazing Spider-Man 2 is tonally all over the place and bungles some key beats, but it’s hard to dislike a movie so goofily open-hearted.

@Direlogue
Also the makers should probably look up subtlety in the dictionary. There is WAY too much foreshadowing #SpiderMan

@craigstevens
Really enjoyed The Amazing #SpiderMan 2. Andrew Garfield is fantastic. The closest comic book to screen Spidey so far.

@joeursell
Amazing Spider-man 2. Decent, but it’s like the film is on steroids.

@nigelfloyd
Spider-Man 2. Marc Webber pulls the legs off the re-booted franchise – slowly, painfully and without pity. #Spider-Man #Spider-Man2

http://collider.com/the-amazing-spider-man-2-reviews/

971. Phil - April 8, 2014

@967. Oh, don’t forget about twice as big, three times as fast. Advanced weaponry, whatever that means…

972. dmduncan - April 8, 2014

933. Vultan – April 7, 2014

Funny!

973. Keachick (Rose) - April 8, 2014

#968 Thank you, Phil.

The hospital did a CT scan soon after my mother was admitted. All was OK.

This is OT – but I thought that you guys in North America, especially those living on the West Coast, may find this *interesting*

http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/local-blogs/off-pat/9917013/Why-is-the-Beehive-radio-inactive

974. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@967. Disinvited,
“Based on the swarm of shuttles Scotty successfully hid among to enter, it would be reasonable to assume more than a few were aboard.”

Not necessarily. Those shuttles could have been doing anything, including dropping off supplies, picking up various construction crews, etc. Moreover, regardless of what is said, given that Khan is the one who designed it, wouldn’t he defeat his own purpose by requiring a massive crew fro combat? Moreover, he effectively fired a volley of crippling torpedoes at the Enterprise all by himself, unless he managed to rally Marcus’ battle-crew around him.

But I believe the point you are trying to make is that a lot of people were killed in the 72 torpedo explosion? Here’s the thing. If there was anybody else on that ship, much less dozens of weapons specialists, would they not have immediately come to the bridge and tried to stop Harrison?

975. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@960. Disinvited,
“at the end of the day Admiral Marcus seemed to be one serious nutter… the scene where Kirk shirks and shakes off McCoy’s request, indicates the writers were aware of this.”

They hung a lantern on the problem, eh? Well look, Marcus was clearly out of his mind. But if Marcus did order Kirk to fire all 72 torpedoes, even in Kirk’s bloodlust for revenge I think he would have gotten suspicious. Spock most certainly would have said something about it, and it definitely would have come up when it was discovered who Carol actually was. So that’s the main problem with it — nobody questioned it, and it was never explained, notwithstanding that the order was never actually given in the movie.

Would Kirk have actually fired all 72 torpedoes at once? Doesn’t seem likely. But he was definitely prepared to use them, even fired Scotty to have them on board. Interesting then that Kirk left the actual decision to Sulu to fire the torpedoes. Would Sulu have actually fired all 72 of them at once? I would hope not. But that begs the question, under what circumstances would Sulu have fired them? Or would he have mounted a rescue mission? And did Kirk actually give him authorization to fire them at Kronos, or just permission to bluff with them? But then, if Sulu wasn’t authorized to fire them, when did Kirk think he would use them, enough to accept Scotty’s resignation?

Now let’s look at the final mystery … why did Kirk want Sulu to broadcast a message to Harrison to tell them they were coming for him? What does that do besides let Khan know to ask how many torpedoes Marcus gave Kirk so he would surrender? I mean, when Obama sent the Seal Team into Pakistan to get Bin Laden, did they send a radio transmission into the compound alerting them to surrender or they would fire drones? No. Why would Kirk do it here? Plus, wouldn’t that potentially risk tipping off the Klingons that they were there by transmitting “a targeted comm burst to Harrison’s location.”?

976. Disinvited - April 8, 2014

#971. Phil – April 8, 2014, 974. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

FWIW from this exchange initiated by Spock:

“Search the enemy ship for signs of life.

1887
01:53:12,280 –> 01:53:14,203
Sir, there’s no way anyone survived.

1888
01:53:15,480 –> 01:53:16,641
He could.”

We know whatever those torpedoes yield were 72 were enough to get everyone else BUT Khan killed.

From Carol:

“He’s been developing a ship

1284
01:17:02,040 –> 01:17:03,280
that has advanced warp capabilities…”

From Khan answering Kirk:

“Tell me everything you know
about that ship.

1400
01:23:00,560 –> 01:23:02,324
Dreadnought class.

1401
01:23:02,400 –> 01:23:04,084
Two times the size,
three times the speed.

1402
01:23:04,160 –> 01:23:07,004
Advanced weaponry.
Modified for a minimal crew.

1403
01:23:07,080 –> 01:23:10,004
Unlike most Federation vessels,
it’s built solely for combat.”

Khan says what I first quoted in my other post afterwords, while on the Vengeance. But none of that answers the question as to why it was built so BIG and then modified for minimal crew operation? It seems self-evident by the spaciousness and breathable atmosphere throughout it is meant to be able to transport a lot of living beings? Invading
troop transport function? Flight support crew for all those shuttles; not to mention with all that surface area in a combat situation the repair crew complement needed to engage the enemy must be substantially greater than Kirk’s ship needs? I mean look at the results of the tango with Spock: E survives and Vengeance destroyed. Any thoughts?

977. dmduncan - April 8, 2014

975. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

I think the inference we are intended to make from how it was written is that all 72 were meant to be fired. Why else were these new long range torpedoes loaded except to strike Kronos from a normally impossible distance? If they (the writers) only meant a few to be fired, which is all they would have needed, then that is all that had to be loaded.

Whether it ultimately makes sense or not, and how well you can make explanations to defeat that logic, I think the idea is that Marcus wanted ALL the evidence gone, and Kirk was being used to help do that.

I’m just not sure if they meant us to think Marcus’ plan was to secretly destroy the Enterprise (and get rid of all the evidence) himself with the Vengeance from the moment he sent Kirk on the mission with all the torpedoes.

I think you can read it either way unless they put something in there which I missed to exclude either possibility.

978. Keachick (Rose) - April 8, 2014

#975 – I think that Kirk and Spock had decided that this was not going to be so covert. Going to Kronos in civilian wear meant that Kirk could say that he did this on his own initiative (which, by this time, really was) in order to hunt down and arrest this criminal who was hiding on the Klingon homeworld. That is what Lt Uhura explained and appealed to the Klingon code of honour, which, as we know, from TNG, can be an important part of Klingon culture.

In this way, Kirk could truthfully say that he was on a personal mission and that Starfleet had not authorized any contact, let alone, attack on the Klingon world. Neither Kirk, Spock or Uhura were dressed in regulation SF uniforms, and Kirk told the two security officers accompanying them, to change into civilian wear, because he did not want any Klingon they may meet associating their actions with Starfleet. One hell of a big risk, but at least, if they did die, they could do it with a clear conscience.

Remember that it was actually Kirk who looked this H/K person in the face and KNEW that he was responsible for the attack on SFHQ and for the death of his friend and mentor, Admiral Pike. At first, he just wanted revenge, but later, simply justice and was going to see it done.

Bear in mind, when Kirk fired Scotty, he had not yet given much, if any, thought to what Spock had just discussed with him on the shuttle on the way to the Enterprise. What’s more, he was dismissive of Dr McCoy’s ministrations. He curtly told both Spock and McCoy to report to their stations.

979. Keachick (Rose) - April 8, 2014

“I think the idea is that Marcus wanted ALL the evidence gone, and Kirk was being used to help do that.
I’m just not sure if they meant us to think Marcus’ plan was to secretly destroy the Enterprise (and get rid of all the evidence) himself with the Vengeance from the moment he sent Kirk on the mission with all the torpedoes.”

Bingo. Marcus knew what those torpedoes contained and did not want Kirk to know about it. He just wanted Kirk to use them and cause a fire fight in the process with the Klingons, leading to all out war. As soon as Marcus got the communication that Kirk had captured Khan and that there was no battle with the Klingons, Marcus got out his real big ship with real big guns and came to finish them all off. One way or another, that annoyingly *well-intentioned rule breaker and those who clearly have his back would be gone, along with Khan and his crew/family, who had also become troublesome for different reasons.

* It is obvious that Marcus has little or no respect for human or any other life, other than how it might serve his interests. That became abundantly apparent when he said to Kirk, “I was never going to spare your crew.” Marcus was also the one who had Kirk sent back to the Academy for violating the Prime Directive and lying in his report. Demotion would be an understandable response, but sending him back to school – well, that is a little over-the-top. It is a wonder Marcus did not throw Kirk out of Starfleet altogether. Perhaps he wanted to but was outvoted.

By the end of the film, I could see that Kirk really got up his nose, for all the *wrong* reasons, as in Kirk, Spock… cared about the living and that everyone should be given, if possible, a fighting chance to survive, even the unknown, primitive Nibiruns…. the very antithesis of who Marcus and Khan were.

980. Marja - April 8, 2014

941 Cygnus, Yep, I should have put all that after my “suffice it tos say” in quotes. I’ve seen evidence myself of the back-pedaling behavior, followed again by nastiness. It happened late last year — subject behaved for about two or three months, for awhile trying to keep things nice and reminding others to do the same … then let slip the vicious! vicious! dogs of war.
——————————————————————————————————
948. Phil “@936. Given the apparent shadiness some Federation representatives seem to represent, I’m still of the opinion that this Federation might actually be on the verge of evolving into the Terran Empire. There are problems afoot when a Starfleet Admiral can just decide to take the Federation to war and civilian oversight is either oblivious to it, or complicit in the action.”

Wow, this is an interesting idea. Especially coupled with the horrible notion of genocide mentioned above. Killing much of the Klingon race would indeed leave a huge power vacuum in the Alpha Quadrant. Beginnings of the Terran Empire? But nipped in the bud.

OR … IS … IT …!
——————————————————————————————————
967 Rose, Hope your mum is doing better now. Sounds like quite a nasty shock for all concerned.
——————————————————————————————————
977 Duncan, One question occurs to me there. From Marcus’s POV why NOT destroy the Enterprise and the whole crew. There wouldn’t be any forensic evidence after a matter/anti-matter explosion would there? “Gee Senator, I don’t know WHAT went wrong. Must’ve been those tricksy new torpedoes. One minute she’s sailing along pretty as you please, the next, BLOOEY!”
———————————————————————————————————
RE: SLEEPY HOLLOW

I’ve taken advantage of “certain viewing capabilities” and watched a couple of episodes. Seems to me there could have been a much more gradual reveal of the Evil Afoot in episode one, which would have allowed an episode or two more to explore the building trust and friendship between Ichabod and Abbie, and a more impactful reveal of What It Is. By revealing so suddenly, they seem to have set themselves a task repeatedly — and hugely — raising the stakes concerning the Terrible Events to unfold.

Nevertheless it’s watchable and verbally witty in parts, and Mr Mison is certainly … er … fun to watch, as is Ms Beharie, so, yeah, why not? [And I'm sort of gritting my teeth waiting for the big conspiratorial Freemason thing ... surely it will come, as Washington is one of the characters in the past who is deciding what Ichabod Crane was doing for the Americans' side ...]

981. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@976. Disinvited,
“We know whatever those torpedoes yield were 72 were enough to get everyone else BUT Khan killed.”

That exchange was in regard to the Vengeance crashing into San Francisco. It had nothing to do with the torpedoes, at least exclusively.

Honestly, I don’t have any idea what your point is anymore. Are you trying to say that the Vengeance had a crew of 2000 people who perished when the torpedoes exploded? Seriously what are you getting at?

982. dmduncan - April 8, 2014

980. Marja – April 8, 2014

Yeah, and that’s why he would want all the torpedoes on board. No loose ends.

983. Curious Cadet - April 8, 2014

@977. dmduncan,
“I think the inference we are intended to make from how it was written is that all 72 were meant to be fired.”

I think this is what they decided after they realized they screwed up. Sulu’s line comes out of nowhere, and certainly is NOT what Kirk told him to say.

I’ve already accepted that I can see a reasonable scenario where all 72 might need to be launched, which is due to the long range from the Neutral Zone, so the entire payload might need to be fired to ensure at least one hits its target. But is that what they really intended?

Oh who knows, they really thought they had come up with a clever twist with the 72 torpedoes, and probably convinced themselves anything was reasonable to make their twist work.

What’s more suspicious? Upgrading the flagship’s torpedo payload with 72 of the most advanced torpedoes Starfleet has available, or giving Kirk 72 torpedoes and telling him he has to fire all of them at one man on which they have the capability of fixing a targeting lock to get him with just one?

The way I see it, Marcus expected them to sit on the edge of the Neutral zone and fire several torpedoes killing Khan. But because he sabotaged their ship, they would not be able to get away. And since Marcus lied and the torpedoes were completely traceable, a Klingon armada would soon engage the stranded Enterprise which would commence firing the remaining photon torpedoes to defend itself against the attack. Whatever they failed to fire would be destroyed as the Klingons finished off the Enterprise.

But Kirk didn’t do that. And Marcus had to come finish the job himself. I can’t imagine Marcus wanted to be anywhere near the Neutral Zone when the Enterprise was destroyed. My question is, now that he had to zip out to Klingon space and do the job himself, how did Marcus intend to explain the destruction of the Enterprise and start his war?

984. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#981. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

Well, for Spock to be able make that call, he clearly learned more about Khan’ resiliency from his older version. Something that I’m beginning to wonder if Marcus had any kind of handle on?

If Khan could leap 30 feet in his native environment and seemed even more super on the Klingon Homeworld from the Landing Party report, Spock would start having some doubts early on that low-yield individual long range photon torpedoes (which we can infer from STVI aren’t likely factory set to lock onto gaseous anomalies or singular biological units) would ever have been enough to achieved Marcus’ stated goal.

We know from Scotty’s firing that Kirk & crew weren’t being allowed access that would allow reconfiiguringg the torpedoes as was done in STVI. So with a super man being a moving target, Spock must have concluded the chance of one of these torpedoes dispatching Khan was at best a crap shoot, especially since Marcus wasn’t allowing them to properly vet the devices which not only would have integrated them into the warp field which was Scotty’s concern but allowed them them to exploit all their capabilities. As it was, with Marcus holding back info, Kirk and company would be forced to only use them within standard torpedo firing protocols with an added kick of extended range. But what good are long range drones if all you can do with them is fire them as conventional weapons? Better than nothing I suppose… And if Marcus preset them to lock on Khan, … well I suppose it’s a good thing they never had to fire them at Klingons while Khan was in custody.

Anyway, you seem to be coming around about Marcus’ expected use of all the torpedoes, so there’s probably no need to further probe this.

#983. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

“…how did Marcus intend to explain the destruction of the Enterprise and start his war?” – Curious Cadet

That’s simple: he blames it on the Klingons as his covert ops must be pretty good at covering such things up such as a HUGE ship being built just a stone’s throw away from Earth, the heart of the Federation. At least on TNG, when they covertly developed that cloaked ship, they had the good sense NOT to try to hide it in what had to be the most trafficked area of The Federation.

985. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

@984. Disinvited,
“Anyway, you seem to be coming around about Marcus’ expected use of all the torpedoes, so there’s probably no need to further probe this.”

OK M J …

I can do it too — Occam’s Razor!! (Perhaps the most ignorantly misused term on this forum).

Seriously, that was the biggest load of nonsensical hindsight speculation I have read around here in a while.

Now we can agree to disagree.

986. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#983. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

I’ll grant you this: For Scotty to park a shuttle on that ship and wander around it even while it engaged in combat – not to mention, he, Kirk and Khan traipsing right up to the bridge, later. Well, Vengeance clearly did not have an adequate amount of security crew members to patrol its immenseness before Marcus took it into a combat situation.

Also, an unidentified intruder is detected on board, quite possibly Khan himself for all Marcus knows, and all he has to spare is 1, count him, 1 security person?

I’ll also give you: Given Khan says it only needs one to fly it, regardless of what size, big or small, Vegeance’s crew is, why didn’t all available rush the bridge when Scotty fired?

A fan would fill in that Khan did as he did in SPACE SEED in taking over the E, but then why didn’t he do that when he first boarded Vengeance? Too easy?

987. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#985. Curious Cadet – April 9, 2014

The “Occam’s Razor”, I get.

But The “M J”, OUCH!

Especially, in regards to giving me cause to recall the constant insinuations that I was you.

988. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#980. Marja – Tuesday, April 08, 2014 10:12 PM, 982. dmduncan – Tuesday, April 08, 2014 10:18 PM

“Must’ve been those tricksy new torpedoes” – Marja

Sound reasoning, but I doubt Marcus would want to shine a spotlight on the torpedoes after taking steps to totally obliterate them.

989. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

Disinvited,

Because he was always condescendingly saying “you’re coming around” if you even aknowledged his position, like there was only one point of view — his.

Indeed, now I wonder if those accusations that we were the same person might have been him attempting to throw me off the trail … Could yours be a ninth alias? ;-)

Many of your points @986 I addressed @974. If dmduncan is correct and the writers intended us to infer that the orders were to fire all 72 torpedoes (however many more unaddressed problems that creates), then likewise we were clearly supposed to infer that the Vengeance was minimally crewed.

990. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#989. Curious Cadet – April 9, 2014

No condescension intended. I just digested your:

983. Curious Cadet – April 8, 2014

“I’ve already accepted that I can see a reasonable scenario where all 72 might need to be launched, which is due to the long range from the Neutral Zone, so the entire payload might need to be fired to ensure at least one hits its target. But is that what they really intended?” – Curious Cadet

While typing my 984 in reply to your 981, which is why I just let that part trail off rather than bother to revise it.

991. Phil - April 9, 2014

@986. Well, security has always been the Achilles Heel of all Trek universes. It should be no surprise that a combat ship in the Federation, one designed to operate with a minimal crew, had virtually no automated security as well as personnel.

992. Ahmed - April 9, 2014

@991. Phil

” It should be no surprise that a combat ship in the Federation, one designed to operate with a minimal crew, had virtually no automated security as well as personnel.”

The most advanced ship in Starfleet & it had no automated security or personnel ? Yeah, that make PERFECT SENSE!

The fact that something was done stupidly in previous movies doesn’t make it ok to do the same stupid thing AGAIN.

993. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#991. Phil – April 9, 2014

No argument there. But I was also touching on Khan’s assertion that only 1 of the crew was necessary to fly it. Granted some personnel had to address whatever Scotty did in Engineering, but what were those other guys doing on the bridge after Scotty ignited the intruder alert? CC was right to point out that the rest of the crew should have rushed to address a security threat, and yet they didn’t, time and again.

Khan also said that the ship was designed solely for combat. Doesn’t it also stand to reason that it would be manned only by personnel likewise combat ready?

994. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#992. Ahmed – April 9, 2014

I get your point and I support your call for smarter Trek, but isn’t it a little late to put the Red Shirt trope back into the bottle? A missed opportunity, it being a new universe and all, but a little late after the 2009 film, no?

995. Ahmed - April 9, 2014

@994. Disinvited

I have no problem with the Red Shirt trope at all. Heck I even like it. It is just hard to believe that a very advanced ship like the USS Vengeance will be without security of any kind, be it human or AI. But again, this is coming from the same collective mind that gave us the amazing transwarp beaming!

“A missed opportunity, it being a new universe and all”

Yeah, a new universe with NEW & FRESH stories :)

Third time’s a charm, I guess. Hopefully Payne & McKay will come up with something interesting & exciting next time around.

996. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#995. Ahmed – April 9, 2014

Well, I did wonder that if a younger Scotty could figure out how to reboot the equivalent of an M-5 computer’s weapon’s systems, why couldn’t the older Prime Scotty in THE ULTIMATE COMPUTER? But that’s just fanning.

997. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

@993. Disinvited,
“But I was also touching on Khan’s assertion that only 1 of the crew was necessary to fly it. Granted some personnel had to address whatever Scotty did in Engineering…Khan also said that the ship was designed solely for combat.”

I think you may be missing the forrest for the trees, and again, I’m not really sure why it matters whether there were other people on the Vengeance or not (especially since having them there only compounds the irritating loose threads with which to easily unravel the shoddy fabric out of which STID is constructed).

Taken in aggregate, Khan is saying the ship was built for combat and only one person is needed to operate it.

The purpose of the writers telling us Khan designed the ship and that its designed for combat and can be “flown” by just one person, is to give us some insight into how the ship can be used. We know from TSFS that the entire ship can be automated and run from the bridge, even taken into combat, as long as the ship keeps the upper hand. We also know how superior the Vengeance is to any other ship. We also know Marcus plans to destroy the Enterprise, so he would want as few witnesses on board the Vengeance as well. Who knows, perhaps he planned on jettisoning his own crew into space as soon as the Enterprise was dispatched. He definitely wasn’t planning on going into battle anyway. He probably planned on popping back to Earth under the guise that he was sitting on the toilet the whole time (especially since it only takes 10 minutes to travel between the Earth & Kronos now).

And then there’s Khan, who had no problem battling the Enterprise all by himself (unless it is your contention that Marcus’ crew then stepped up to aid Khan as their new leader). So I think it’s safe to say the writer’s intended us to infer there was no other crew on board the Vengeance.

998. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

@992. Ahmed,
“The most advanced ship in Starfleet & it had no automated security or personnel ? Yeah, that make PERFECT SENSE!”

I’m willing to throw them a small bone on this one. It’s a top secret ship, kept at a top secret facility. So the implication is that anyone going in or out of the ship is tracked, and should be there, eliminating the need for any serious on-board security. The Vengeance is further seemingly impregnable eliminating the need for internal defenses in space. This further plays into Marcus’ hubris that he is in control of anything. After all, he was planning on a quick trip to the Neutral Zone to destroy the Enterprise with a minimal crew from his top secret base. What did he need internal security for?

The real problem, then, first arises at the top secret facility where Scotty just waltzed in unnoticed, and then it’s compounded by the fact that the guy that found Scotty doesn’t check in with anyone, nor is noticed gone missing. I believe the writers were counting on the bridge being distracted by the computer shutdown allowing Scotty, Kirk and Khan to go unnoticed. And who knows, maybe Scotty knew how to recognize and avoid ship detection systems prior to that. Think about it — ST09 already set up that Kirk and Scotty would have gone unnoticed on the Enterprise after their transwarp beam-in had Kirk not had to open a hatch to rescue Scotty.

999. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#997. Curious Cadet – April 9, 2014

Well if I am not seeing the forest you are not seeing the trees. STID clearly shows on film that there’s more personnel than just Marcus on Vengeance. Also, what I’ve been doing is agreeing with you in that once that Vengeance bridge crew member reported “a hangar door open on deck 13″ why didn’t those bridge personnel and what few others the film showed jet down to that hangar to repel boarders? That they were already, and if not that going to be, under attack would be the logical conclusion that a so-called combat-ready crew would draw. Instead, we get the lot of them acting like combat doofuses from the Admiral right down to the guy that found Scotty wasting time asking questions instead of taking action.

Clearly the Vengeance and her crew’s combat unreadiness is one answer to your question as to why not a one of them successfully lifted a hand against Khan.

The other thing I’m trying to get you to see is (maybe if we put aside the 72 torpedo part of his Trojan Horse, it would help?) that interaction between the crewman and Spock establishes that Spock took lethal action against Khan but Khan transcended it. It doesn’t matter at what point after Spock set the wheels in motion that his action became fatal to life, my point is that it establishes that Khan (and his blood) transcends lethal force which the script later hammers home with McCoy and his tribble.

This is why I rambled about that I don’t think Admiral Marcus thought this whole thing out or had gathered all the info on all of Khan’s abilities after reviving him. It is a script weakness that reduces Marcus to a mustache twirler in that of what practical sense (other than relishing in the irony and poetry of it. Two birds and all.) does it make for him to try to use weapons of Khan’s own design and unauthorized modifications against him? As it is I’m left wondering how effective could they possibly have been if they only just figured out how to arm and disarm them by a fortuitous accident?

If Marcus really wanted to get rid of that “evidence”, Popsicles and all, he should have just dumped them unarmed in some innocuous sun. Making them part of some elaborate plan was just a prescription for disaster for those two aspects his intended goals.

1000. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#998. Curious Cadet – April 9, 2014

True about the 2009 E’s security but then again, I don’t think, after that battle, Spock had hubris about it being “combat ready” against Nero either? Wasn’t that why he opted for the Laurentian System? Maybe we could throw them a bone that once Kirk took the chair he plugged that particular hole?

1001. Phil - April 9, 2014

I’ll take Khans comment about a crew of one as a minimum compliment, but at an operational level Vengeance could have had thousands on board, depending on mission parameters.

As far as Starfleet security being paper thin, it serves as a plot device, nothing more. The ‘intruder alert’ alarm goes off when the story calls for it, and is silent when the story calls for that. This wild inconsistency can be seen in WOK, and it’s just continued from there….

1002. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

@999. Disinvited,
“Well if I am not seeing the forest you are not seeing the trees.”

What I meant is that it seems you are focusing on a lot of complex minutiae to prove a point, which is murky at best.

I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you’re saying in this post, other than I’m not sure why we’ve been picking apart details which don’t really seem to have anything to do with your final summary here.

_____________
“my point is that it establishes that Khan (and his blood) transcends lethal force which the script later hammers home with McCoy and his tribble.”

I don’t know if that’s true or not, nor whether that was the point the writer’s intended us to infer. Clearly, Khan’s blood has recuperative powers, but what about the final moments of the film, other than it’s seemingly implausible, makes you think that?

The bridge was relatively protected from the torpedo blasts, and the crash. We already know Khan is more resilient than normal humans, but what does that have to do with Spock’s attempt to disable the Vengeance? Did Spock hope the blast would kill Khan? Maybe (if so what happened to his desire for a fair trial?). But based on the movie I saw, anybody on the bridge would have survived that blast, not just Khan. In fact the ship was still somewhat functional afterwards. Did Spock know the Vengeance would plunge to Earth? Who knows. Did Spock anticipate Khan would be in such a hurry to escape he would jump 30 meters? Doubtful. Again based on the somewhat implausible presentation, I feel like there’s a fair degree of certainty a normal human might have survived the crash on the bridge of the Vengeance as well. Khan’s ability just helped him get away faster.

I guess what I”m saying is I don’t understand the logic you are using to knit a connection between Spock detonating the torpedoes on the Vengeance and Khan’s ability to transcend lethal force.

1003. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#1002. Curious Cadet – April 9, 2014

There were 6 bridge officers and 2 security guards stunned by Kirk’s trio entering the Vengeance bridge. Is it your contention Khan took the time to kill them all after they survived the crash as they were all on the bridge together. Remember, E scanned for signs of life and only one was found.

1004. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

@1003. Disinvited,
“Is it your contention Khan took the time to kill them all after they survived the crash as they were all on the bridge together.”

Well, Khan wouldn’t very well want to keep fighting them when they regained consciousness now would he? What did he do with Kirk, Scotty & Carol? I’d conjecture (and that’s what ALL of this is) that your answer lies more in that direction.

1005. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#964. Keachick (Rose) – April 8, 2014

Hope, your Mom’s doing well. Phil’s right. From my personal experience, an MRI brain scan is better for the elderly. I had a tangle with my Dad’s brain care. I argued for an MRI scan. They only wanted to do a CT. They got their way. Then they left him unattended on the X-ray table and he fell. Didn’t even tell me until after a second scan which as you can surmise was a sudden medically imperative MRI.

1006. Disinvited - April 9, 2014

#1004. Curious Cadet – April 9, 2014

Actually, what Khan didn’t do with Carol makes little sense at all. Unless we conjecture that Kirk wisely kept from him that she was Marcus’ daughter? Possible, as I doubt while he was in the Brigg that he was privy to ship to ship communications. But isn’t it part of Khan’s strategy to know everything there is to know about his adversary? If not, shouldn’t it be?

I mean if I understood prime Khan’s vengeance seeking m.o. doesn’t he tend to relish returning like for like? Shouldn’t altKhan have used Carol to bend Marcus to his will, if he was aware of her true status?

So you believe Khan honored his specific deal to return Spock’s crew and then added a coda, “Here’s some change.”?

Interesting…

I know neither of us holds Memory Alpha as the final word BFWIW it lists the stunned Vengeance personnel as presumed killed in the crash.

1007. Phil - April 9, 2014

@1006. Interesting thought. Some speculation…

It’s very possible, assuming Khan accessed a terminal on E, that Carol Marcus might still have been listed as Carol Wallace on the ships manifest.

As Marcus was on E at the direction of her father, presumably she was also attached to Section 31 in weapons development. Unless Marcus kept every aspect of his covert activities hidden Khan would have probably put two and two together back when he was still working for Marcus.

Agreed with Khans MO. He probably broke her leg to keep her from running off, figuring he would inflict a little payback on her, while dad watched in retaliation for the pain inflicted on Khans family. There’s probably enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Khan knew who she really was….

1008. Marja - April 9, 2014

983, Curious, Marcus’s explanation? Ummm, “It was a terrible accident! Enterprise must have had a warp core breach!”
———————————————————————————————————–
995 Ahmed, “Third time’s a charm, I guess. Hopefully Payne & McKay will come up with something interesting & exciting next time around.”

As a fellow fan, I do want to give my wish list:

“‘something interesting, brainy, understandably paced & with less pointless action’” next time around.
———————————————————————————————————–
997 Curious, “He definitely wasn’t planning on going into battle anyway. He probably planned on popping back to Earth under the guise that he was sitting on the toilet the whole time (especially since it only takes 10 minutes to travel between the Earth & Kronos now).”

LOL!!!

Your 1002, ” Did Spock know the Vengeance would plunge to Earth? Who knows.” I’m troubled by the idea that if he DID know, WhyTF didn’t he contact SFHQ to let them know a big package was on its way to SanFran, special delivery? As others have pointed out many times, WhereTF was planetary defense all this time? Were they all doing training excercises outside the Sol System? Cripes.

Maybe Spock thought it pointless based on their ineffectiveness against Khan’s attack on HQ in the first place … logical conclusion. Aggghhh! Starfleet’s attention to internal security is demmed spotty. Consistency, ever a wobbly point in Trek …

1005 Disinvited, Sadly, that seems to be the modern medical MO … emergent care after the fact, rather than preventive care. Also, emergent care enables them to charge a hella lot more to Medicare. Truly caring MDs and RNs are constantly battling profit-oriented hospital admin in an effort to properly do their jobs. Some MDs, sadly, may not do the battle b/c of their own paychecks. I know I sound cynical. We need single-payer healthcare in this country!

1009. Curious Cadet - April 9, 2014

@1006. Disinvited,
“I know neither of us holds Memory Alpha as the final word BFWIW it lists the stunned Vengeance personnel as presumed killed in the crash.”

I don’t disagree that it is logical to presume that the crew were killed. One way or another I believe they were killed. I happen to think Khan beamed them into space where there was no chance of them interfering, along with Marcus’ bloody corpse. However, if the ship crashed while they were still passed out, I would expect them all to be killed as well, as their limp bodies were jettisoned into the hull, breaking their necks and worse, unlike Khan who could protect himself, or at least put on a seatbelt. If anyone could survive the crash of the Enterprise-D in Generations, as most did, then why couldn’t the crew of the vengeance otherwise survive their crash?

And Khan absolutely knew who Carol Marcus was. He made it his business to know absolutely everything about Marcus. I agree it was yet one more problem with this script and a missed opportunity. However, Khan wasn’t interested in manipulating Marcus anymore, or Carol at this point. He had what he wanted with the Vengeance, and a means to get his people back, so at this point he just wanted Marcus to shut up. Besides, nobody could be bothered with Khan’s character development up to that point, so why should they start then?

1010. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

#1007. Phil – April 9, 2014

Carol wasn’t on the E at the behest of her father. She went rogue because he had shut her out. It was solely her own personal mission in search of the truth.

1011. Keachick (Rose) - April 10, 2014

This is my third attempt at posting this. I had the *temerity* to type the word in$$$ance in full, so the filters deleted it. I forgot. What’s with the trekmovie filter? Real upid’s day staff!

Thank you, Disinvited, Marja, Phil… for your interest in my mother’s wellbeing.

My mother is lucid, not at all dozey or out of it. She was given a CT scan when she was first admitted and later an X-ray for a suspected wrist fracture. Both came up good. She is just very sore and bruised. Her head injury was a flesh wound requiring quite a few staples/stitches. She did loose about one litre of blood but so far has not needed a transfusion. They plan to keep her there for about a week in order to observe, do any necessary tests and to ensure that healing goes as it should.

I am confident that if there became a need to do an MRI that the medical staff would have one done. When my younger son suffered from what appeared to be an epileptic seizure, he was admitted to a public hospital, like my mum now, and within a couple of hours received an MRI. The test did not reveal anything untoward, but he does take anti-seizure medication, as he had three more seizures since that first one.

My mother is in another state-funded public hospital, Auckland Hospital. She does not need any ins&rance, nor do I, in order to receive full medical care free of charge. All I have to pay for is the parking and possibly an ambulance bill. These hospitals are tax payer funded – wouldn’t want or have it any other way…

1012. Phil - April 10, 2014

@1010. Or at least that’s her story. Just how does one ‘go rogue’ in a command structure? People don’t just show up for a ship assignment, either today or in the future. She either forged her orders, which is unlikely because she was requested by Kirk, or someone else had to conceal her true identity, which didn’t work to well as Spock was able to figure out who she really was in a hurry. I understood what she said, there are just way to many loose ends around her appearance on E to just write it off as a lone weapons designer investigating on her own. I also understand it’s not necessary to show us all the infrastructure behind the building of Vengeance, super-duper torpedoes, or anything else Marcus was doing covertly to prepare for war with the Klingons – even in the 23rd century, it takes factories, lots of raw materials and manpower to build all this s**t. That’s why we can’t conclude this was just an Admiral and his daughter going rogue….

Weird that I, Mr. Anti-Conspiracy, see way to much circumstantial evidence with the presence of Carol Marcus to just write it off as coincidence….

1013. Curious Cadet - April 10, 2014

@1012. Phil,
“Just how does one ‘go rogue’ in a command structure?”

This is yet another flaw with the story. It becomes clear the collective group of writers and producers wanted certain things to happen, and really weren’t concerned about the details behind making it happen, as they ticked them off their list.

However, Carol was definitely involved with section 31. She knew about the torpedoes, she knew about the Vengeance. Considering the access she had to Starfleet’s top secret black ops organization and resources, I think she could have pretty easily managed to get herself assigned to the Enterprise with all the proper credentials.

“Captain Inexperience” there was seemingly more interested in chasing tail, getting hammered, breaking the rules and lying about it on official reports, dreaming of the 5 year mission, and as of late, obsessed with the revenge of his mentor Pike. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if he had little idea what was going on administratively with his ship, much less cared.

And a combination of those two things got him on board the Enterprise. Only Spock who seemed more than offended at her unexpected arrival, had a reason to look into her assignment deeper.

– BUT YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING QUESTION –

If Carol plays into a conspiracy theory here … what role are implying she had?

The most immediate and interesting I can imagine is that she was the saboteur. In which case, Marcus was planning all along to show up and rescue her before the Klingons began their attack.

1014. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

#1012. Phil – April 10, 2014

There seems some confusion on your part.

I am agreeing with you that Carol worked for her Dad as part of some secret outfit (Section 31?). Spock ferreted out that her orders were forged because he deduced her real identity of Carol Marcus from the fact that her mother’s maiden name was “Wallace” which she used as her new last name (Which means Khan’s intellect is less than superior if he didn’t come to the same conclusion, assuming he never met her until he was on the E?)

Also note, in her confession to Kirk that follows Khan’s capture, for those that care, Carol identifies the long range torpedoes on Kirk’s ship as prototypes which apparently Kirk didn’t even know as he was given so little information about them. In fact, she even tells him that she doesn’t know what they are when he asks. This makes me wonder if killing Khan was ever really part of the Admiral’s Plan for Kirk and his E? Seems the lack of info was more a prescription to accidentally blow themselves up next to the Neutral Zone, and blame the Klingons. Because, If Carol hadn’t been there, it sure seems as if something would most likely have gone wrong loading and/or firing them? And I am even more convinced that the Warp engine sabotage was the result of the torpedoes unknown systems and fuel being improperly introduced into the Warp engine proximity, exactly as Scotty hinted.

Here’s the gotcha:

“[CAROL]Mr. Spock. You startled me.

668
00:42:02,120 –> 00:42:03,610
[SPOCK]What are you doing, Doctor?

669
00:42:03,720 –> 00:42:05,609
[CAROL]- Verifying that the torpedo’s internal…
[SPOCK]- You misunderstand.

670
00:42:05,760 –> 00:42:07,728
What are you doing aboard this ship?

671
00:42:07,800 –> 00:42:10,644
There is no record
of you being assigned to the Enterprise.

672
00:42:10,840 –> 00:42:12,171
[CAROL]Really? That must be
some sort of mistake.

673
00:42:12,280 –> 00:42:14,567
[SPOCK]My conclusion as well, Dr. Marcus.

674
00:42:15,440 –> 00:42:18,125
Except that you have lied
about your identity.

675
00:42:18,320 –> 00:42:20,721
Wallace is the surname of your mother.

676
00:42:20,800 –> 00:42:23,041
I can only assume
the Admiral is your father.

677
00:42:26,400 –> 00:42:27,765
[CAROL]Mr. Spock.

678
00:42:28,320 –> 00:42:30,846
I’m aware that I have
no right to ask this of you.

679
00:42:31,040 –> 00:42:33,930
But please, he cannot
know that I’m here…”

And here’s her confession/explanation and/or rationalization:

“[KIRK]Are the torpedoes in the weapons bay?

988
01:02:43,360 –> 01:02:44,885
[CAROL]Loaded and ready to fire.
[KIRK]What are they?

989
01:02:45,160 –> 01:02:46,491
[CAROL]I don’t know.
That’s why I forged my transfer

990
01:02:46,560 –> 01:02:47,846
onto your ship to find out why.

991
01:02:47,920 –> 01:02:49,649
I do apologize for that.

992
01:02:49,720 –> 01:02:52,530
By the way, if I caused you
any problems, I am sorry.

993
01:02:52,600 –> 01:02:53,886
I’m Carol Marcus.

994
01:02:54,040 –> 01:02:56,042
[KIRK]- James Kirk.
- Torpedoes.

995
01:02:57,120 –> 01:02:59,282
[CAROL]My father gave me access
to every program he oversaw,

996
01:02:59,360 –> 01:03:02,011
then I heard he was
developing these prototype torpedoes.

997
01:03:02,080 –> 01:03:05,641
When I went to confront him about it,
he wouldn’t even see me.

998
01:03:05,760 –> 01:03:07,888
That’s when I discovered
the torpedoes had disappeared

999
01:03:07,960 –> 01:03:10,088
from all official records.

1000
01:03:10,400 –> 01:03:12,084
[KIRK]And then he gave them to me.”

1015. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

Something to keep in mind about about the prototype torpedoes:They where shielded which means their power source was active.

1016. Keachick (Rose) - April 10, 2014

#1012 – “She either forged her orders, which is unlikely because she was requested by Kirk…”

Incorrect. She was NOT requested by Kirk. He had no idea who she was. Spock asked Kirk if he had and Kirk replied, “No. I wish I had”. Spock was obviously miffed by her being assigned as, once he was back on board, who could Kirk possibly need other than Spock? Spock was behaving, in that moment, like an egotistical jerk, to which Kirk correctly replied, “The more the merrier”.

1017. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

FWIW Just found a better formatted movie lines source. When the Hangar door was reported open to the Admiral, he correctly identified the source as Khan.

1018. Curious Cadet - April 10, 2014

@1015. Disinvited,
“Something to keep in mind about about the prototype torpedoes:They where shielded which means their power source was active.”

So it’s your contention that Marcus didn’t want Khan taken out?

Just a few points of order — Carol’s line about the prototypes may have been left over from a previous draft, or added after the Marcus scene. Regardless, there’s no proof that the torpedoes Marcus gave Kirk were the same “prototypes” Carol recalls — in other words, by the time he gave them to Kirk they may have been production models, especially since all evidence of them disappeared completely. And I’ll add my usual question for you, so what if they are prototypes, how does that change anything?

Second, the idea that they were shielded doesn’t necessarily mean they were active (powered) shielding. Lead is a passive shield. Who knows what they will have 300 years from now.

And finally, you conclude that: “I am even more convinced that the Warp engine sabotage was the result of the torpedoes unknown systems and fuel being improperly introduced into the Warp engine proximity, exactly as Scotty hinted.”

But i don’t see any evidence of that. All Scotty warned about was a shift in the magnetic field from firing the torpedo with an unknown payload. He didn’t say anything about fuel or proximity. If the torpedo were generating some kind of measurable interference, THAT is something concrete that Scotty would have grounds to refuse them on.

So sorry. I am totally unconvinced the torpedoes themselves had anything to do with the warp core overheating, especially since Chekov confirmed the problem was caused by a substantially damaged coolant leak.

Marcus wanted those very traceable torpedoes fired at Kronos to take out Khan and provoke the Klingons over the border to start a war, and he wanted to ensure the Enterprise was a sitting duck waiting for them, the only way to do that would be to have an on board agent (in case they repair the damage), or to be prepared to take out the Enterprise himself, as he ultimately did.

1019. TrekMadeMeWonder - April 10, 2014

No wonder it was difficult to figure out what the federations beef was with the Klingons in TOS.

If the darker alt-verse politics are any indicator, the Klingons may have had good reason to be agressive towards the Federation in the primary universe, as well.

I think that’s may be the chief difference between the more innocent 60′s Trek’s and today’s harsher sensibilities.

1020. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

#1018. Curious Cadet – April 10, 2014

“So it’s your contention that Marcus didn’t want Khan taken out?” – Curious Cadet

Not so much that but that his primary purpose for the E was clearly to serve as Klingon War starting fodder. If Kirk managed to take out Khan, it would be icing on the cake. Marcus previously judged Kirk as a screw up and that was what he was counting on in placing the E on the edge of the neutral zone. Taking out Khan was secondary and problematical at best given Marcus’ elaborate plan to accomplish it relied on so many unknowns and variables.

I think the fact that they were exactly 72 units containing 72 human Popsicles argues against them being standard “reliable” production line units. And if I gave you that, it is clear Khan heavily modified all 72 placing them right back into the untested prototype category as not a 1 had been test fired under that new configuration.

A prototype is a preliminary model in which problems are expected. Your going on about lead and claiming no power is facetious given we know you know it was powered up to keep the popsicles viable.

We also know from this:

Khan:”The turbo-lifts are easily tracked and Marcus would have us in a cage. This path runs adjacent to the engine room. They know they won’t be able to use their weapons here without destabilizing the warp core, which gives us the advantage.”

that anomalous energy discharges near the engines disrupt the warp core.

“THAT is something concrete that Scotty would have grounds to refuse them on” – Curious Cadet

What are you talking about? He DID refuse them on concrete grounds.

“Chekov confirmed the problem was caused by a substantially damaged coolant leak” – Curious Cadet

He most certainly did NOT:

Chekov: “Sorry, sir! I don’t know what happened! The core overheated, I had to activate the emergency stop! It must be a coolant leak, I need time to find it. Sorry, Captain.”

Note: Chekov DID NOT KNOW what happened. He supposed that it must be a coolant leak but at no time in the film did he find and CONFIRM IT.

So, sorry, I am totally unconvinced.

1021. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

#1018. Curious Cadet – April 10, 2014

My apologies, I found the part confirming the found coolant leak. I stand corrected.

1022. Disinvited - April 10, 2014

#1018. Curious Cadet – April 10, 2014

Here it is:

Chekov: We found the leak, sir, but the damage is substantial! We are working on it.
Kirk: Any idea what caused it?
Chekov: No, sir. But I accept full responsibility.

1023. Marja - April 10, 2014

1016 Rose, That’s one read on the situation, and the comical one usually assumed by most viewers. Or the ones who insist Spock is “jealous of Carol” for … well, for reasons of their own.

My take was, Spock was suspicious from the instant she introduced herself. And during that scene, if you ignore the comic ["jealousy"] overlay, you can see Spock thinking, thinking, thinking,,,,

“WHAT is she doing here? And WHY?”

Spock is XO of the Enterprise. He would see every change to the personnel complement, last-minute or no. He had never seen her transfer. You don’t get assigned to a ship by just waltzing up to the captain with some orders out of nowhere.

1024. Marja - April 10, 2014

I’m also wondering in a plot-twisty sort of way if Carol is part of Starfleet Intelligence, as opposed to Section 31, the latter being her father’s organization. She’s going to find out what her dad’s up to, but with the backing of the straight types high up in Starfleet.

She’s able to get the orders through for that reason, but whoops! they forgot to convince Spock, the Executive Officer …!?

[thus proving 'Military Intelligence' is an oxymoron, even in the 23rd century]

1025. Curious Cadet - April 10, 2014

@1020. Disinvited,
“What are you talking about? He DID refuse them on concrete grounds.”

No he didn’t. He refused them on not knowing what the payload was and a potential reaction given a hypothetical situation. If he could have pointed to an actual disruptive energy wave pattern being emitted by them, then he might have had something.

I have already proven you wrong on this point with the actual dialogue from the movie. Scotty was concerned about the effect of an unknown payload caused by the FIRING of he torpedo, and NOTHING else.

As for your prototype argument — I’d say 72 torpedoes sounds like they were in production. You may recall, when Harewood blew up Section 31, there were many torpedoes in the room. So 72 were hardly the limit of available torpedoes. And whatever Khan did to them would have no bearing on their effect on the Enterprise as far as Marcus knew, considering they had not been tested that way. Now perhaps Marcus rigged the torpedoes to explode. Who knows. It was NOT ADDRESSED anywhere in the movie, along with anything to substantiate your conjecture. Yes we know they were powered to support the life canisters, but if unusual power waves were enough to cause a substantial coolant LEAK in the warp core, then Scotty didn’t mention it. The shielding of the payload, and the power to the cryo tubes, don’t necessarily have anything to do with each other — especially if this problem you have with errant power waves were a real one – then they would want to shield the torpedoes in a way that made them appear inert, right?

So as far as I can tell the torpedoes had nothing to do with the sabotage on the engines. And why go to the trouble of stranding the Enterprise at the Edge of the Neutral Zone if the torpedoes are just going to blow up the warp core when fired anyway? And what good does blowing up the Enterprise do? The Federation is NOT going to let Marcus retaliate against the Klingons. They will insist on going through diplomatic channels. And where is the evidence the Klingons were involved? Marcus needs to provoke the Klingons to attack the Federation for his plan to work, and none of what you propose facilitates that. The only thing blowing up the Enterprise gets Marcus is rid of the 72 cryotubes. Khan is left alive on Kronos, and could conceivably come back to haunt him. So much for getting rid of all the evidence.

I’m sorry, none of this adds up as a plausible explanation, nor was likely intended by the writers based on what was actually in the movie.

1026. Curious Cadet - April 10, 2014

@1020. Disinvited, MORE^^^^

But I will give you this … maybe Marcus didn’t care if Khan was killed or not. Maybe he thought the Klingons would eventually take care of him (more on that later). In which case, why sabotage and strand the Enterprise at the Neutral Zone and risk that Kirk might not fire the torpedoes? To keep him there. If Kirk fired the torpedoes, then the Klingons would come finish him off, and launch their attack on the Federation. If he didn’t, he would be stuck there until Marcus could show up and permanently disable the Enterprise, and fire the torpedoes at Kronos himself, and the Klingons would again show up and finish off the Enterprise.

I mean what was the plan had Khan not gone rouge, and Kirk not eagerly volunteered for the mission? How was Marcus going to get the Klingons to cross the Neutral Zone and start his war? The Vengeance seems to be the obvious answer.

Now if Khan was intentionally stranded on Kronos to be killed by the Klingons, then Marcus likely beamed him there and planted the portable transwarp device (which never actually worked) in the wreckage for Scotty to find.

On the other hand, Khan was a top agent that knew all of Starfeet’s secrets. And he was incredibly smart, and well trained. Could Marcus really risk that Khan wouldn’t be able to trade all of that information with the Klingons for his freedom? What good would his war do if Khan was telling the Klingons how to defeat him at every turn?

1027. Cygnus-X1 - April 10, 2014

Trying to make sense of the plot of STID is like a one-legged cat trying to bury turds on a frozen pond.

During their space face-off, Marcus tells Kirk that he (Marcus) was trying to kill Khan and the other Augments by having the Enterprise launch the 72 torpedoes at Khan on Kronos. No, it doesn’t make sense that the Admiral Marcus character would do something so stupid and reckless that needlessly jeopardized his whole plan that he’d spent a year or whatever developing, but the movie does contain that plot hole. Marcus’s ridiculous plan was for Enterprise to fire the 72 torpedoes at Khan in order to kill all 73 of them. That much is evident.

1028. Vultan - April 10, 2014

#1027

“Trying to make sense of the plot of STID is like a one-legged cat trying to bury turds on a frozen pond.”

Oh, that’s so wrong… but it’s so right!
Haha, thanks for the laugh.

1029. Disinvited - April 11, 2014

#1025. Curious Cadet – April 10, 2014

“I have already proven you wrong on this point with the actual dialogue from the movie” = Curious Cadet

No you didn’t. First, he was concerned with what was inside as non-specified general concern:

Scotty: “Aye, sir. I was just explaining to this gentlemen, that I cannot authorize any weapons on board this ship without knowing what’s inside them.”

Then he was concerned with the fuel which he never explained what the problem was with regards to that:

Scotty:” Due respect, sir, but photon torpedoes run on fuel. Now I cannot detect the type of fuel that’s in the compartments on these torpedoes, because it’s shielded.”

then he got around to your payload concerns.

Scotty:”It’s a radioactive catastrophe waiting to happen. A subtle shift in magnetic output from, say, firing one or more of six dozen torpedoes with an unknown payload, could start a chain reaction which will kill every living thing on this ship. Letting those torpedoes on board the Enterprise is the last straw.”

Which clearly is the worst case of his problems with the torpedoes.

It’s clear he has more than just the one concern with them. And I dare say its more than just the ones revealed in that exchange.

“Now perhaps Marcus rigged the torpedoes to explode.” – Curious Cadet

A reasonable assumption given Dr. McCoy discovered they had a built-in feature to be used in precisely that manner which Spock exploited and apparently Khan was unaware of.

“… then they would want to shield the torpedoes in a way that made them appear inert, right?” = Curious Cadet

Your assertion is reasonable. However all the units have to do is lose their shields or just power them down for just a moment in my scenario to disrupt the engines perhaps leading them to overheat and overtax the coolant system in some unanticipated way leading to extensive never seen before damage and the leak.

“And what good does blowing up the Enterprise do?” = Curious Cadet
What good does blowing it away with the Vengeance (Which apparently has everything else BUT disruptors.) do? I’m not trying to say Marcus’ plans make sense but it is consistent with what Marcus says he planned to do all along to Kirk and his crew, and now is going to use his bad@ss ship to execute.

Khan and the Klingons are warriors. I am uncertain of any scenario where they meet and don’t recognize each other as such and start fighting, but instead, sit down and make nice. I’d say the bigger threat is that Khan might actually conquer the Klingon Empire and become its Emperor.

My only thought was that as Marcus had enlisted Khan as a secret agent, then he must have had a contingency to “burn” him such that the Klingons would not consider anything he might offer reliable.

But then I’ve already expressed that I believe Marcus inane for expecting the Khan modified torpedoes to work perfectly anyway. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have expected that Khan might have modified them to soft land without exploding at some predetermined location if they were ever fired with his people inside?

#1026. Curious Cadet – April 10, 2014

Now you are talking. You anticipated almost my every thought.

“What good would his war do if Khan was telling the Klingons how to defeat him at every turn?”

Well, I’ve expressed my doubts about that, but you do cause me to recall that the writers like old war proverbs:

“Better to have an enemy you know, than one you don’t.”

Khan and his kind were defeated once before. Maybe Marcus, in his hubris, believes sicing him on the Klingons to become their eventual ruler will ultimately lead to the downfall of both. But then again, covert ops often involve seemingly inane moves “for the greater good”?

1030. Disinvited - April 11, 2014

#1027. Cygnus-X1 – April 10, 2014

LOL.

Vultan is correct.

1031. Marja - April 11, 2014

Cygnus [1027], If we didn’t enjoy slidin’ around like cats on ice [FOUR-legged cats in future, PLEASE] we probably wouldn’t be here. We’d be checking some BORING website where the only speculation is stuff like, “what size is Kim Kardashian’s behind, really?”

Look at it this way, my friend, we’re keeping each other off the streets, running down the strange by-ways of the cities of imagination :-p

1032. curious Cadet - April 11, 2014

@1029. Disinvited,
“It’s clear he has more than just the one concern with them.”

Scotty’s concerns are just that — concerns; and conjecture. They aren’t concrete problems. They’re “what ifs”. Not knowing what’s inside something and guessing whether it might do you harm under a specific set of circumstances is not the same as it DOES do something specific you can point to as a reason to refuse them onboard. The very dialogue you posted proves that.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg on your wild speculation bobsled.

You are taking the tiniest puzzle piece and going way out on a limb trying to make it fit. At the risk of sounding like that certain someone with multiple personalities, Occam’s Razor actually applies here. Of all the probable explanations supported by the evidence actually in the movie — yours saying highly modified torpedoes which lay inert until they spontaneously came to life at some predetermined moment to direct a highly targeted undetectable beam at the coolant system to create a substantial leak and force a shut down of the warp core at a specific location in space, then are further rigged to explode upon use, thus destroying the Enterprise, without engaing he Klingons in any way, just to get rid of Kirk without doing anything to Khan, is a far more convoluted plan than the one Marcus proposed, however flawed. And if Kirk decided not to fire the torpedoes, I guess they are rigged to explode at a predetermined time anyway? I mean look at all the improbable things you’ve proposed they have to do to explain the events of the film, which only result in the destruction of the Enterprise, for some reason, without starting a war with the Klingons, and explained it all by hanging it on Marcus being “insane”. But congratulations you’ve created the red-matter of STID. Marcus is “crazy”, but nothing about that plan of yours makes sense.

And now you propose Marcus expected Khan to be the eventual ruler of the Klingons? And that’s a good thing because he will lead to their their downfall? Marcus wants a war, and that goal seems to avoid it completely. Moreover, you really can’t imagine a scenario where Khan can convince the Klingons to talk to him, and merely begins a non-stop fight warrior-to-warrior until the last man standing? Then you don’t know Khan at all and weren’t watching the same movie I was. He’s at least as brilliant a tactician and manipulator of people with his words as he is a capable warrior if not more so. All Khan has to do is transmit one Starfleet backdoor security code to the Klingon high command with a note saying there’s more where that came from to get their attention, and take it from there.

Look you can believe whatever you want, just like Keachick believes Kirk did the right thing with his ill conceived plan despite getting everyone killed (if not for Khan). But that doesn’t make it right. For me the question is, what were the writers trying to do in STID and did they succeed? And it’s pretty clear its an indictment on how the US engages in covert warfare that bypasses the judicial system, with Khan shoehorned into it, in which they partly succeeded. All this other stuff you’ve been pushing is pure fantasy, most of which is not supported by events in the movie, nor does it provide any allegorical commentary on current events as intended by the writers.

1033. Ahmed - April 11, 2014

@ 1027. Cygnus-X1 – April 10, 2014

“Trying to make sense of the plot of STID is like a one-legged cat trying to bury turds on a frozen pond.”

@1031. Marja – April 11, 2014

“Cygnus [1027], If we didn’t enjoy slidin’ around like cats on ice [FOUR-legged cats in future, PLEASE] we probably wouldn’t be here. We’d be checking some BORING website where the only speculation is stuff like, “what size is Kim Kardashian’s behind, really?””

LOL that is so hilarious, thanks guys for the laugh :-)

1034. Phil - April 11, 2014

@1024. Well, when you consider the Carol Marcus arc…
She’s there at the beginning, presumably at the behest of her father, the Admiral….
She’s there at the end, after the smoke clears, not charged with any crimes, and still a member of Starfleet….
The best possible explanation is that she’s a plant. And if she’s attached to Starfleet Intelligence, that’s the best possible explanation for her fathers reaction towards the end – he didn’t actually know she was on board. All of her other actions are clearly consistent for someone who is staying close to the situation.

It still does not answer the overriding question, though. Marcus was not going to war with the Klingons with one super-duper starship and a handful or torpedoes. So, who’s complicit? Starfleet, who had all this activity going on right under their noses? Starfleet Intelligence, as you may have surmised Carol is an agent of? The Federation Council?

It’s a year later, and it appears little has changed, and there’s Carol, assigned to Enterprise. So, who knew what, and when did they know it?

1035. Disinvited - April 11, 2014

#1032. curious Cadet – April 11, 2014

“Scotty’s concerns are just that — concerns; and conjecture.” – Curious Cadet

I think the problem with Scotty’s speech is the writers’ intent. We are meant to draw a 9/11 connection in these 2 movies. Having him essentially argue that the Enterprise is not a military ship was in service to painting a picture that is meant to shine a light on why we have to put up with inspections on public transports today. I think his concerns are more concrete than most TSA screeners’ reasons but their metaphor is muddled which is leading me to understand your approach and concerns in this.

I think we were meant to feel between this scene and the way Spock uses them that a homegrown terrorist’s (Marcus) bombs got past screening.

“yours saying highly modified torpedoes which lay inert until they spontaneously came to life at some predetermined moment to direct a highly targeted undetectable beam at the coolant system to create a substantial leak and force a shut down of the warp core at a specific location in space, then are further rigged to explode upon use, thus destroying the Enterprise, without engaing he Klingons in any way, ” – Curious Cadet

Point taken. I had concerns when I wrote with regards to the razor but you are adding twists I didn’t intend. I never meant that the coolant system was the specific target only that its damage could be explained as result of energies disrupting the warp engine leading to emergency shutdown because of overheating. The coolant system damage was incidental. And while we are at it, Mr Concrete Cadet, Checkov never gives a concrete reason for the coolant system damage only that he “Doesn’t know.” And for my money there’s too much “I don’t know.” all around being said by this movie’s operatives who believe they are on delicate mission to end Khan in a legal war action against his terrorism that avoids igniting a war with the Klingon Empire. The actual purpose of which they “don’t know” is to ignite said war.

“I mean look at all the improbable things you’ve proposed.” – Curious Cadet

I’m just following the same improbable reasoning in the writing in which we are meant to believe the super-intelligent Khan squirrels away his family, for their safety mind you, in explosive torpedoes that he modifies to accommodate them but neglects to modify to install safeguards so as NOT to explode while “protecting” them.

“Marcus wants a war, “- Curious Cadet

Indeed, and he can still have his war while Khan hammers away from the inside and he, Marcus at the outer edges.

Look Marcus is head of a Covert Ops. That is Mission Impossible territory, Regime toppling generally doesn’t make sense outside its halls. And, I was toying with it as I indicated with “maybe”. I’m not hanging my hat on it, just exploring Marcus’ possible reasons for stranding him there.

“He’s at least as brilliant a tactician and manipulator of people with his words as he is a capable warrior if not more so.” – Curious Cadet

Humans, yes. Klingons? He never spoke a word of their language in this film. Not even a translated proverb. The only skills, in regards them, the film reveals is that he knows how to deal with them as a warrior in battle. Also, as the series ENTERPRISE is considered part of these films’ history, the Klingons would recognize him as an augment and he would be immediately labelled “Contagion X” – to be exterminated and it would not be that big of a leap for the Klingons to consider his being there an act of biological warfare by The Federation and go to war right then and there. And Now, THAT I believe would be Marcus’ plan in stranding Khan there or at least a backup plan at their homeworld. After all, Khan isn’t the only one that can “transmit … to the Klingon high command”.

And to return to improbable expectations, what kind of Starfleet is this where an Admiral fully expects a rational captain to start taking potshots at a an extremely well armed and fortified empire’s homeworld with his ship disabled? Right at the beginning of STID Kirk, as a captain, learns that no matter how well planned, things can go wrong. It doesn’t matter how supposedly untraceable and undetectable the weapon is, things can go wrong. The fact that the ship is disabled hammers home, things can go wrong.

I mean even Marcus appears to know this:

Marcus: “Long range and untraceable, it would be invisible to Klingon sensors. I don’t want you hurt, but I want to take him out. You park on the edge of the Neutral Zone, your lock on to Harrison’s position, you fire, you kill him and hall ass.”

So why does he irrationally believe Kirk is going to fire the torpedoes before Kirk restores his ability to follow Marcus’ order to “…haul ass.”?

1036. Keachick (Rose) - April 11, 2014

I think that the sabotage of the Enterprise’s warp core happened before Marcus intended it to happen…

“Look you can believe whatever you want, just like Keachick believes Kirk did the right thing with his ill conceived plan despite getting everyone killed (if not for Khan). But that doesn’t make it right.”

The plan was ill-conceived from the start, as far as getting everyone killed was concerned. I initimated that Kirk did the *less wrong thing by not firing the torpedo(es) to kill Khan and going after him so that Khan could face the judicial process. Who says that, in the scenario that STID presented, there is absolute right way as opposed to an absolute wrong way? Kirk and Spock decided to go the more right way, ie following the (slightly) more high moral ground, even it meant going against superior officer orders, which were covert anyway.

This is not a case of “two wrongs don’t make a right”. The STID scenario here is a case of choosing the “lesser of two evils”.

*(I refer to my post #963 – “…He (Kirk) keeps getting done for doing the more right thing, or the less wrong thing…”)

1037. Keachick (Rose) - April 11, 2014

Oh wow – Has anyone seen this? Now, if only they would come downunder…sigh…

‘Star Trek: Live in Concert’ Sets Course for San Diego Comic-Con
10 April 2014 5:28 PM, PDT | Variety – Film News | See recent Variety – Film News news »

The “Star Trek” film franchise is going on tour with a live concert series in May that will dock at San Diego Comic-Con in July.

The concert will feature the score composed by Michael Giacchino for J.J. Abrams’ “Star Trek” and “Star Trek Into Darkness” films, with a live orchestra performing the music as the films unspool on screen.

CBS Consumer Products, Paramount Pictures, 21st Century Symphony and Orchestra, the Gorfaine/Schwartz Agency, and Img Entertainment are producing the tour.

The six-city tour will kick off May 24 in Europe (with performances in the U.K. and Switzerland) before the U.S. premiere in Houston on July 18.

The Philadelphia Orchestra also will perform “Star Trek Into Darkness” at that city’s Mann Center in late July. Performances are also planned for Canada in March 2015 from the Sony Centre in Toronto.

The Comic-Con performance will take place July 26, with the San Diego »

Of course, it would be even better if Michael Giacchino and the orchestra also performed the film scores to the other movies in the franchise or excerpts – some lovely film music there as well!

This is the kind of entertainment I go for…:)

1038. Curious Cadet - April 11, 2014

@1035. Disinvited,
“Humans, yes. Klingons? He never spoke a word of their language in this film. Not even a translated proverb. The only skills, in regards them, the film reveals is that he knows how to deal with them as a warrior in battle.”

This back and forth is tiresome.

No the film didn’t show Khan speaking Klingon. It did’t have to, because he’s a character we know outside the movie. And don’t you think a genius like Khan who could close the gap between his knowledge of 20th century technology and 23rd century technology to design the most sophisticated weapons within the Federation in less than a year could also learn to speak flawless Klingon, just like he developed a flawless English accent? And by your own argument, you’d have me consider Khan was going to conquer the entire Klingon Empire by brute force without speaking a word of Klingon as part of his, or Marcus’ plan? You short change Khan, and everything we know about him by limiting his ability in this way in order to win your argument that he was not a liability and did not need to be taken out, when clearly he was. And now he’s a contagion? So the plan was that the Klingons would take out Khan because he was a contagion? Which is it? So far you’ve not made a convincing case for either.

And you still haven’t explained what blowing up the Enterprise without provoking the Klingons to attack first gets Marcus. If that’s all he wanted, he didn’t need to cripple the Enterprise, just plant a bomb on a timer to destroy it, no need to count on Kirk doing anything. You keep saying Marcus was insane, so he was making irrational decisions, as justification of this wild speculation of yours, but the overall plan as presented in the movie seems pretty sound. What did Marcus want to do? He wanted the Klingons to attack the Federation so he would have an excuse to fight the war. How was he going to do that? Strand a Federation ship near the Neutral Zone, and fire torpedoes at Kronos (from the Vengeance if necessary). The Klingons will get rid of the evidence when they come looking for who fired the torpedoes. That’s a pretty solid plan. And it would have worked had Marcus not tried to use Khan as the rationale.

_____________
“So why does he irrationally believe Kirk is going to fire the torpedoes before Kirk restores his ability to follow Marcus’ order to “…haul ass.”?”

Kirk changed the plan. He decided to take the Enterprise to Kronos. The sabotage was meant to keep him from getting away after he fired the torpedoes, but since he decided to go beyond the Neutral Zone, the Enterprise was shut down before they reached Kronos, forcing them to cross open space twenty minutes longer than anticipated. And yet Kirk went anyway, with no guarantee the ship would be able to haul ass when he returned. Perhaps Marcus did size up Kirk pretty well and expected just that from him — reckless, seat-of-his-pants-crew-endangering-report-forging-promoted-too-soon, kid. I don’t think he has to be especially irrational to assume the worst of Jim Kirk, who as Carol Marcus put it, has a “reputation”.

And nothing was ever said about those torpedoes that connects them to that leak. Meanwhile, Carol was suspiciously lingering around Engineering under the guise of getting a look at the torpedoes.

1039. Phil - April 11, 2014

@1036. Yeah, a friend of mine has vendors tickets, and a spare. Debating to go or not, conventions aren’t my thing, but my son is a Doctor Who fan….

I should find Bob and introduce myself. Hopefully he won’t hit me….

1040. Disinvited - April 11, 2014

#1038. Curious Cadet – April 11, 2014

“[Khan could] …learn to speak flawless Klingon, just like he developed a flawless English accent? And by your own argument, you’d have me consider Khan was going to conquer the entire Klingon Empire by brute force without speaking a word of Klingon as part of his, or Marcus” – Curious Cadet

I was just following the line of reasoning that you employ that if the film doesn’t show it then it is not a skill he has, yet. No argument, that he can acquire it but learning an Earth language and/or accent is one thing, but mastering a totally unfamiliar alien tongue and culture so as to be fluent enough to successfully negotiate and manipulate them to his advantage in that short amount of time? Well, I have my doubts. I remind you that this is early in the Federation history and the best negotiators in it prior to Khan’s awakening are failing with respect to negotiations with the Klingons.

I will say this, if I accept Khan as this super expert Klingon negotiator that you would have, then Marcus totally wasted him. He should have been employing Khan in that capacity so that the Federation would have had the upper hand in all their dealings. And what did Marcus need with the movie’s convoluted plan to start The Klingon War? Khan could have easily manipulated them in negotiations to start one at the time and place of Marcus’ choosing. Heck, John Harrison could have written Uhura’s Academy course texts on “How to Speak Fluent Klingon”.

Uhura, herself, was a prime example of how knowing the language is a far cry from being able to negotiate well in it, and we are meant to believe she is the resident expert. I know Khan is super and all in this movie, but it is as if your reasoning compels me to accept he learned all he needs to know watching Uhura fail.

“The sabotage was meant to keep him from getting away after he fired the torpedoes, but since he decided to go beyond the Neutral Zone, the Enterprise was shut down before they reached Kronos, forcing them to cross open space twenty minutes longer than anticipated. And yet Kirk went anyway, with no guarantee the ship would be able to haul ass when he returned.” – Curious Cadet

You want me to accept that while you find plausible that the coolant system had an unshown (and undetectable by Chekov after the fact) bomb with a timer, any one or all of the other 72 bombs that the movie shows on screen as indeed having timers…well, that they could be employed to that end, is just too fantastical?

And the film lost me as to why the E had to continue crossing enemy space for 20 minutes, if they were going to use Mudd’s ship? I meant it’s a ship. Couldn’t it have covered the space to Kronos while the E finds a good place to hide?

1041. Disinvited - April 11, 2014

#1038. Curious Cadet – April 11, 2014

“And yet Kirk went anyway, with no guarantee the ship would be able to haul ass when he returned.” – Curious Cadet

You have lost me here. You are equating Kirk’s decision to execute an unauthorized covert undercover extraction against Marcus’ orders with being equivalent to obeying Marcus’ orders to fire what you contend are state of the art weapons at the Klingon Empire homeworld and that he wants them safe by by hauling ass immediately thereafter..?

The two do not equate. A starship firing weapons at an enemy for any reason is a potential combat situation requiring combat readiness.

Besides, I don’t know what movie you saw, but Mudd’s ship was, indeed, in a ready to haul ass state, which it did immediately after extracting Khan. And, if need be, was in a far better state to make a run for the Neutral Zone on its own than the E was at the time of this mission. Which is why I found Kirk’s reasoning plausible.

1042. Curious Cadet - April 11, 2014

@Disinvited 1040 & 1041,
“No argument, that he can acquire it but learning an Earth language and/or accent is one thing,”

Oh I see, because English and Mandarin are so similar?

“You have lost me here.”

And you’ve lost me. I’m done with this.

1043. Curious Cadet - April 11, 2014

@Disinvited 1040 & 1041,
“No argument, that he can acquire it but learning an Earth language and/or accent is one thing,”

Oh I see, because English and Mandarin are so similar?

——————————–
“You have lost me here.”

And you’ve lost me. I’m done with this.

1044. Curious Cadet - April 12, 2014

@1036. Keachick (Rose),
“Kirk did the *less wrong thing by not firing the torpedo(es) to kill Khan and going after him so that Khan could face the judicial process.”

Just out of curiosity, if the movie had played out identically up until Mudd’s ship got to Kronos, but this time the ship lands safely avoiding detection of the Klingons; and as they exited the ship Khan opened fire on them, and they shot back and killed Khan — would that have been OK too?

1045. Keachick (Rose) - April 12, 2014

#1044 – That is a ridiculous question. Kirk, Spock and Uhura could, of course, defend their lives if they had been attacked by Khan or anybody else. If that meant that Khan was killed, then that would constitute self-defence. However, Marcus’s original plan, if followed, would in no way constitute self-defence, quite the opposite. The plan was an offensive operation.

You need to look at the intent of a course of action taken along with everything else. Premeditated is the not the same as self-defence. Kirk and his officers’ intent was NOT to kill Khan, but to bring him back to earth to stand trial. All three were very clear on this.

Perhaps I need to watch the film again, but I have always been under the impression that Kirk parked the Enterprise in the Neutral Zone near Klingon space.

1046. Cygnus-X1 - April 12, 2014

1035. Disinvited – April 11, 2014
1038. Curious Cadet – April 11, 2014

Kirk changed the plan. He decided to take the Enterprise to Kronos. The sabotage was meant to keep him from getting away after he fired the torpedoes, but since he decided to go beyond the Neutral Zone, the Enterprise was shut down before they reached Kronos, forcing them to cross open space twenty minutes longer than anticipated.

I’ve only been scanning your debate, so forgive me if I’ve missed the main point of contention, but if you guys are both trying to explain STID’s plot holes in your own way, there’s no particular reason why you’d reach an agreement.

Marcus’s whole scheme for Kirk, Khan, the 72 Augments and the Klingons was absurdly reckless and poorly planned as presented in the story. Marcus had no way of knowing whether his sabotage of the Enterprise would occur before or after Kirk had fired the torpedoes at Kronos. And telling Kirk to fire the 72 Augment-laden torpedoes at Khan on Kronos was an absurdly uncertain and reckless way for Marcus to accomplish his stated goal of killing those 73 people. It’s the sort of behavior you’d expect from a wild-eyed, berserk, rabid madman, not from a brilliant and cunning Star Fleet Admiral who’d spent a year plotting to achieve very specific ends.

The Admiral Marcus character is simply written in a logically inconsistent manner, so you’re both naturally going to fail at trying to make sense of his behavior. Likewise with the other characters and plot holes in the movie. It’s just bad writing, nothing more.

1047. Keachick (Rose) - April 12, 2014

Correction: The Enterprise lost power so there was no choice but to remain “parked” there until a way could be found to get the ship going again. As I said, I think the timing of the sabotage happened a bit earlier than planned for.

I do not think that Carol Marcus had anything to do with the sabotage.

Phil – Why presume something about a character when the film itself is quite clear about a character’s reasoning, evident in the eventual outcome for that person? This is a fictional story.

1048. Keachick (Rose) - April 12, 2014

I was not aware that Marcus told Kirk to fire all the torpedoes at Kronos in order to kill Khan. Marcus gave Kirk (and the audience) the impression that he was providing the flagship of the fleet with the latest weapons technology. Only later did Kirk (and we) find that these torpedoes were carrying more than high explosives…

1049. Curious Cadet - April 12, 2014

@1046. Cygnus-X1,
“Marcus had no way of knowing whether his sabotage of the Enterprise would occur before or after Kirk had fired the torpedoes at Kronos. And telling Kirk to fire the 72 Augment-laden torpedoes at Khan on Kronos was an absurdly uncertain and reckless way for Marcus to accomplish his stated goal of killing those 73 people.”

This is what you get for missing staff meetings. Nowhere was it ever said in the movie that it was Marcus’ plan for Kirk to fire all 72 torpedoes. And however the sabotage was accomplished it had to allow the Enterprise to get to the Neutral Zone, but not to get very far away after its mission. You say he had no way of knowing, but then, no one has any way of knowing anything will happen as planned unless directly supervised, and even then…

I’m not trying to defend the badly constructed story, but there is nothing inherently wrong with Marcus’ overall plan to start a war. Strand a starship on the edge of Klingon Space, fire torpedoes at Kronos, let the Klingons come looking and find a Federation ship seemingly responsible and then launch their attack in retaliation. World War I started over much less than that. The question that has to be asked is how was Marcus going to do it had Khan and Kirk not come into the picture?

The problem in debating it is that people don’t look at the actual clues, they take something like misremembering Marcus told Kirk to fire all 72 torpedoes, and then start creating all sorts of other hypotheticals which have no basis in the film. Had Kirk fired only a few of the torpedoes, the Klingons would have arrived and destroyed the Enterprise and the rest of the payload. Problem solved. Now, as for getting rid of Khan, did Marcus take too much of a risk depending on technology to take care of that problem? Maybe, but then you have to remind yourself, the US routinely takes out its enemies using similar drone technology today. How is this any different?

And then there’s the sabotage. Was the saboteur on board? Was Marcus waiting nearby in the Vengeance all along to pick up his operatives before the Klingons showed up? And to make sure things didn’t go wrong? He told Kirk he never intended to let his crew live, because they were all meant to die at the hands of the Klingons to get rid of the witnesses.

So it seems like Marcus, however insane he was, had the bases pretty well covered. But like everybody else, he made the mistake of hanging his plans on an untried, and reckless, fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, and therefore unpredictable captain.

1050. Curious Cadet - April 12, 2014

@1045. Keachick (Rose),
” Kirk, Spock and Uhura could, of course, defend their lives if they had been attacked by Khan or anybody else. If that meant that Khan was killed, then that would constitute self-defence.”

So, if in the act of killing everyone at the Starfleet meeting, Khan had been killed by Kirk who was able to pull out a weapon and shoot him, that would be OK?

1051. Phil - April 12, 2014

@1047. Well, that’s what’s driving the conversation right now – the film isn’t clear at all about who she is, or why she’s there. The presence of Carl Marcus is definitely a sub-plot, and discounting that she’s there in a damsels in distress trope, the only thing we are presuming is if she has connections in the Trek universe beyond Section 31. I’d be one thing if there was speculation that she’s really a singing Von Trapp, but that isn’t the case. At the end of STID, the obvious bad guys are dealt with. The Admiral is dead, and Khan’s back in the freezer. It was way to big of an operation for there to not have been co-conspirators. Carol Marcus, on the other had, who had operational knowledge of the Admiral’s plan, was deeply connected to Section 31, and probably knew about Khan, is a free woman at the end of the show. It’s a legitimate question to ask why?

1052. Cygnus-X1 - April 12, 2014

1049. Curious Cadet – April 12, 2014

Nowhere was it ever said in the movie that it was Marcus’ plan for Kirk to fire all 72 torpedoes.

Here’s what Marcus says to Kirk: “You park at the edge of the neutral zone, you lock on to Harrison’s position, you fire, you kill him, and you haul ass.”

Yes, technically, Marcus doesn’t say “…you fire ALL 72 TORPEDOES THAT I HAVE GIVEN YOU,” but that is what is implied for the following reasons:

(1) All 72 torpedoes are special long-range torpedoes that have been designed for precisely the type of long-range use that Marcus is ordering Kirk to use them for.

(2) Marcus later reveals that his plan included the destruction of the Enterprise with all hands. So, it’s not as if Marcus would have wanted the Enterprise to hang on to some of the torpedoes for use when the Klingons came in pursuit. The Enterprise was supposed to have been dead in the water and a sitting duck by that point, also part of the plan.

(3) Marcus also later reveals that his plan included the deaths of all 72 Augments inside the torpedoes, “to spare” Kirk from the horror and yada yada. Killing all of the Augments means firing all 72 torpedoes, as stupid as that plan is, to begin with.

(4) Khan’s death is the most important part of the plan because Khan knows what Marcus has been up to. So, why spare any of the specially-suited torpedoes in the expense of killing Khan. There’s no reason to.

In summary, there’s really no reason NOT to assume that Marcus intends for Kirk to use ALL of the torpedoes that he’s been given for that mission. Obviously many valid criticisms can be made of the writing in STID, but I don’t think that particular line of dialogue is one of them. If the lack of specificity in that line confused you, then I can entertain the notion that maybe the line should have been more specific. But I really think that there are enough context clues there to convey the meaning of Marcus’s order and plan.

You say he had no way of knowing, but then, no one has any way of knowing anything will happen as planned unless directly supervised, and even then…

I’m not getting into solipsism here. I’m staying within the parameters of plausibility. If Marcus had, say, installed some kind of mechanism on the Enterprise that sensed when one or all of the torpedoes had been fired at Kronos and then that mechanism would trigger the warp core failure (perhaps delayed by a few minutes to give a chance for all torpedoes to be fired, or whatever… there’s a hundred ways it could be done), then that would have been a reasonable precaution to make sure that the Enterprise didn’t get stranded BEFORE firing the torpedoes. I thought up that idea in real time just now as I was typing it. I didn’t even have to pause for a minute to think about it. And that idea, or something of the kind, didn’t occur to the brilliant Star Fleet Admiral over the course of the year or more that he spent hatching his enormously important and consequential scheme.

1053. Ahmed - April 12, 2014

@1051. Phil

“Carol Marcus, on the other had, who had operational knowledge of the Admiral’s plan, was deeply connected to Section 31, and probably knew about Khan, is a free woman at the end of the show. It’s a legitimate question to ask why?”

Easy, the Federation Prosecutor’s Office granted her an immunity in exchange for evidences against the Admiral.

You really need to watch “24″, they do that all the time :-)

1054. Keachick (Rose) - April 12, 2014

I’m not sure where my post is, as in I hope, I think I clicked on “say it!”

#1052 –
Admiral Marcus did not say that Kirk needed to fire all 72 torpedoes just to kill one man. Kirk, even in his unhinged state of mind, would have seen that as crazy overkill. Kirk would only have needed to order firing a small volley of torpedoes on the area where Khan had been identified as being in, to affect his death. The rest of the torpedoes would have been used defending the Enterprise against an armada (correct usage of word here) of Klingon battle ships which would have been sent when the Klingons realized that their planet was subject to a hostile attack.

With the engines being damaged, the Enterprise was a sitting duck and I doubt it would have taken the Klingons long to despatch it, along with the remaining torpedoes with Khan’s crew. Chekov did manage to get some power back to the engines but advised against engaging warp drive, which meant that impulse drive would have been the only *safe* way of getting the ship moving again. This is no match for heavily armed Klingon ships with warp drive.

Had Marcus’s plan worked, the Enterprise would have been gone, either by the hands of the Klingons or by Kirk himself. In order to prevent the Enterprise, with all of its state-of-the-art technology, and crew falling into enemy hands (ruthless, by all accounts) he could well have ordered Self-Destruct. One way or the other, Marcus would have achieved his goal.

However, the Enterprise never fired on Kronos…

#1050 – “So, if in the act of killing everyone at the Starfleet meeting, Khan had been killed by Kirk who was able to pull out a weapon and shoot him, that would be OK?”

I am sorry, but this is just getting dumber and dumber. Are you trolling or something? I mean – seriously?

That is exactly what Kirk did – he got a weapon and fired on the helicopter in order to disable it/the person inside it who was firing on the SFHQ. So were other personnel doing the same.

The INTENT was self-defence, just as it was later on Kronos. No one at the Starfleet meeting had attacked anyone at that point in time. They were being attacked.

On Kronos, Kirk, Spock and Uhura, and two security personnel, had flown in on an unarmed vessel and the only weaponry the five had was what they could carry on their own person. They were all clear about their objective – to capture Khan and bring him back to stand trial on earth. Their INTENT was NOT to kill him. That was Marcus’ intent, ie to kill Khan, which Kirk rejected.

On the issue of morality and legality, going covert tends to be about heading into murky waters, morally and legally. It is just a matter of how far down a person is prepared to go into those ick waters. It becomes a matter of degree. Marcus would have had Kirk and the Enterprise go all the way down. Kirk/Spock decided to go a less “murky/dirty” route.

1055. Keachick (Rose) - April 12, 2014

Oh dear, the first post did turn up, so I must have clicked “say it!”

Oh well…sigh…

1056. Disinvited - April 12, 2014

#1046. Cygnus-X1 – April 12, 2014

I believe you have fingered the crux of the problem.

However I don’t think it would be unfair to characterize the main problem in our debate is CC believes Marcus’ plan to be sound while I believe it to be nuts. A panicky desperate attempt to put a fire out that the Admiral himself started using any liquid, i.e. means, available without noticinging that the label says “gasoline”

Too bad there is no canon way to find out what Marcus’ secret plan was to start the Klingon War before Khan messed it up.

1057. Curious Cadet - April 12, 2014

@1054. Keachick (Rose),

Thank you. I’m just trying to get a handle on your tolerances.

So if Kirk is defending himself its OK to kill Khan.
If Kirk is defending others it’s OK to kill Khan.

Now another hypothetical, and given this is Star Trek, entirely possible. What if at the end of the movie when Kirk is realigning the injectors, that the act of kicking them back online while the warp core is active combined with plunging in a gravity well somehow resets the time line, and Kirk finds himself at the staff meeting minutes before Khan’s attack. Kirk immediately realizes where he is, tells Marcus it’s a trap with no time to explain, makes a dash for the emergency heavy weapons, blows out a window and kills Khan before he can start firing the weapons. Is that OK?

1058. Curious Cadet - April 12, 2014

@1052. Cygnus-X1,
“that is what is implied for the following reasons:”

You INFER your opinion because:

(1) Section 31 was full of those torpedoes. There weren’t just 72 of them.

(2) Why would Marcus care if the Enterprise still had some torpedoes left. A dead ship might get off a few shots, but in the end the Enterprise would be completely destroyed, torpedoes and all, by the Klingons. In fact, the Enterprise firing some shots makes the entire story that much more plausible. But Ive already presented all is in previous posts.

(3) Intimating the intended deaths of the occupants of the torpedoes does not mean explocityly by being fired at Kronos, as I explained in 2 above.

(4) Why fire them all if it’s not necessary? Does Obama send a dozen drones to get one man when one will do? Is it not possible that the bigger the explosion on Kronos, the more questions it raises?

You are welcome to believe whatever you want, but I don’t see the movie implies this explicitly, nor that I am too dense to get it. Here’s the thing, if a superior officer hands a soldier an AR15 with a hundred round clip, and orders that soldier to empty the clip on an enemy soldier who is trapped on the opposite side of a fence with no idea he’s about to be shot, don’t you think that might raise some questions with the soldier about to pull the trigger?

—————————-
“I didn’t even have to pause for a minute to think about it. And that idea, or something of the kind, didn’t occur to the brilliant Star Fleet Admiral”

Again, how do you know that the sabotage wasn’t handled in a similar way? If firing all of the torpedoes wasn’t a requirement as I contend, then all that matters is distance traveled. Perhaps all the device needed was to confirm the Neutral Zone had been reached and then allow an minimal additional travel time before popping the cork on the leak? Nobody in their right mind would violate regulations and cross the neautral zone without authorization, which is grounds for starting a war, right? Had Khan not betrayed Marcus, perhaps Marcus would have ordered an obedient and loyal captain in the fleet to go to the Neutral Zone and fire some torpedoes on Kronos for any made up story he wanted, just like the fiction he gave Kirk about the torpedoes being untraceable and invisible. This officer is loyal to the core and Marcus doesn’t worry he will do it, but if anything does go wrong he’s standing by in the Vengeance to fix it. So Kirk would seem like the perfect patsy to start his war, and Khan the perfect excuse, which just dropped into Marcus’ lap.

1059. Cygnus-X1 - April 12, 2014

1054. Keachick (Rose) – April 12, 2014

Admiral Marcus did not say that Kirk needed to fire all 72 torpedoes just to kill one man. Kirk, even in his unhinged state of mind, would have seen that as crazy overkill. Kirk would only have needed to order firing a small volley of torpedoes on the area where Khan had been identified as being in, to affect his death.

Not necessarily. That would all depend on where Khan was and how accurate his whereabouts were detectable by the Enterprise. Being that the Enterprise was extremely far away—a few light years away, on the Federation border of the Neutral Zone—pin-pointing Khan’s location on the planet Kronos might well have been a problem. They knew that Khan was in the Ketha Province, but I imagine that’s a fairly sizable swath of land. Firing all 72 torpedoes could have been perfectly appropriate to accomplish the goal of making sure Khan was killed. But, you’re right about the lack of specificity in the dialogue pertaining to Marcus’s plan. We are left to make certain assumptions.

The rest of the torpedoes would have been used defending the Enterprise against an armada (correct usage of word here) of Klingon battle ships which would have been sent when the Klingons realized that their planet was subject to a hostile attack.

It’s possible that Kirk, on his own, might have decided to keep some of the torpedoes for use when the Klingons came in pursuit. But, there’s no reason to assume that when (1) the Enterprise had such a massive lead on any Klingon ships that might set out in pursuit of the Enterprise, and (2) the Enterprise had its normal weapons complement, we can assume.

But the point isn’t even whether Kirk would have decided, on his own, to deviate from Marcus’s orders—clearly Kirk did deviate, and clearly his deviation allowed him to discover what Marcus was really up to. The point simply the logistics (or lack thereof) of Marcus’s plan as stated in the dialogue and presented in the movie. It’s reasonable to assume, for the aforementioned reasons, that Marcus intended for Kirk to fire all of the torpedoes at Khan on Kronos. Being that part of Marcus’s plan was for the Enterprise to be a sitting duck and be destroyed by the Klingons, obviously Marcus would not have made it a part of his plan to leave the Enterprise still heavily armed after its warp core failure. Marcus’s plan was: (1) Enterprise fires all the torpedoes at Khan; (2) Khan and the Augments all dead; (3) Enterprise warp core failure; (4) Klingons kill Enterprise; (5) Marcus has justification to declare war on Klingons. This was all clearly stated by Marcus in the dialogue. There’s no reason why Marcus would have ordered Kirk not to fire all of the torpedoes at Khan; on the contrary, that would actually go against Marcus’s plan.

1060. Cygnus-X1 - April 12, 2014

1058. Curious Cadet – April 12, 2014

(2) Why would Marcus care if the Enterprise still had some torpedoes left. A dead ship might get off a few shots, but in the end the Enterprise would be completely destroyed, torpedoes and all, by the Klingons.

Maybe, maybe not. Why risk it? Why leave the Enterprise more heavily armed than necessary? There’s no reason not to have Kirk fire all 72 torpedoes.

4) Why fire them all if it’s not necessary? Does Obama send a dozen drones to get one man when one will do?

We don’t know that it wasn’t necessary. As I just wrote in #1059, the Enterprise was firing on a planet a few light years away. They knew the province that Khan was in, but maybe not he precise location. Leveling the whole province might’ve been appropriate for the task. And with regard to modern-day warfare, numerous missiles are fired at single buildings when those buildings are heavily fortified. The US military did this in Iraq when they were hunting Sadam Hussein’s two sons. They’d fire a bunker-buster bomb, then directly on the heels of it would come another missile, maybe more.

But, OK. I will grant that the dialogue could have been more specific, perhaps should have been. I wasn’t implying that you are too dense to get it, but possibly reading too much into it. But, even in your interpretation, Marcus’s plan includes having all 72 Augments die. You don’t dispute that, right? I don’t see how you could dispute it, as the dialogue does clearly include Marcus stating that much. My point was not with regard to whether Marcus planned for all 72 Augments to die consequent to being fired at Kronos or consequent to the Enterprise being destroyed by the Klingons. EITHER WAY Marcus’s plan was too stupid and reckless for his character. As important as it was to dispose of the 72 Augments, a Marcus with half a brain would simply have killed them all on Earth. Open up their tubes and kill them. Nice and quiet. No risk. No mess. The whole Augment-laden torpedoes part of the plan was absurd and logically inconsistent with the Marcus character. The writers start the movie off with Marcus as a real person, and then turn him into a mustache-twirling comic-book character. “Muhuhuhaha! I’ll give Khan back his buddies, alright!”

1061. Curious Cadet - April 12, 2014

@1060. Cygnus-X1,
“I will grant that the dialogue could have been more specific, perhaps should have been.”

I will definitely agree to that. The idea that Kirk needed to fire all 72 torpedoes because they couldn’t target Khan is sort of negated by Marcus’ dialogue you previously posted to me: “You park at the edge of the neutral zone, you lock on to Harrison’s position, you fire, you kill him, and you haul ass.” — “you lock on to Harrison’s position”. Evidently they had the technology to do just that. And as the only life form later confirmed in the entire abandoned province, it’s just that much easier to believe.

————————-
“The whole Augment-laden torpedoes part of the plan was absurd and logically inconsistent with the Marcus character.”

I don’t disagree with your evaluation of the job the writers did with Marcus. However, I don’t find it that implausible. Marcus had a year to plan this, trying to come up with the perfect way to invisibly induce the Klingons to attack. And just before he’s ready to execute it, Khan goes rogue and practically gift-wraps everything he needs to make it happen. He’s probably giddy with how brilliant he’s been. But he’s also angry that Khan has spurned him so publicly, and is seething for revenge. So in his hubris, buoyed with the delight he feels from the good fortune Khan has provided, Marcus feels invincible, and makes irrational decisions. What could be a more poetic way to exact revenge than to fire his own people at him? Marcus probably even applauds himself at thinking as viciously as Khan would, which was the stated goal of reviving Khan in the first place. The Enterprise is going to be destroyed anyway, so it doesn’t matter if Kirk doesn’t use all 72, nothing could go wrong. He wouldn’t be the first smart person to be brought down by his ego. In fact, the arguably intelligent writers of the film were brought down by how brilliant they thought their 72 torpedoes idea was, which they clung to despite the obvious problems shoe-horning it into the film.

1062. Cygnus-X1 - April 13, 2014

1061. Curious Cadet – April 12, 2014

So in his hubris, buoyed with the delight he feels from the good fortune Khan has provided, Marcus feels invincible, and makes irrational decisions. What could be a more poetic way to exact revenge than to fire his own people at him?

But Marcus isn’t poetic. His character is cold and calculating to a fault. Poetic justice isn’t what he’s after, but rather safety and security for the Federation won by his clandestine strategic maneuvering.

I’ll concede that maybe Marcus didn’t care exactly how many torpedoes Kirk fired a Khan because he figured that any left over would be destroyed when the Klingons attacked the crippled Enterprise. The relevant dialogue lacks specificity, so we are left to guess and assume. But I’m not having the whole Augment-laden torpedoes plan as consistent with the Marcus character. The only reason Kirk discovers the Marcus’s whole plan and ultimately joins forces with Khan against Marcus is because he (Kirk) opens up one of the torpedoes. Needlessly putting that extremely sensitive evidence (and those potentially dangerous Augments) in the hands of Kirk was just too much servicing the plot at the expense of the characters. The stupid Augment-laden torpedoes drive the entire plot. From them we get Scotty quitting the Enterprise and off doing re-con and discovering the Vengeance, we get Kirk seeing the evidence supporting Khan’s story, etc….

1063. Cygnus-X1 - April 13, 2014

P.S.

And I’m dubious of the whole “you lock onto Harrison’s position, you fire…” too.

They can pin-point the exact position of a person on a planet several light years away? This seems like another of the increasingly fantastical technological conceits in the BR Trek movies, along with the duffel-bag interstellar transporter, red matter and so forth. I mean, could Picard’s Enterprise do that? If so, why’d they ever have to go to any planet to search around for anyone? Why does anyone in Star Trek have to look for anyone else down on a planet, for that matter? Just lock onto your subject’s position on another planet from the comfort of your office desk and do whatever.

1064. Cygnus-X1 - April 13, 2014

…and by “whatever” I mean, beam him into your office, shoot torpedoes at him, beam him a birthday cake, maybe beam him a birthday cake with red matter icing, you know? Go ahead and mix it up. It’s BR Trek! Anything goes!!

1065. Disinvited - April 13, 2014

#1054. Keachick (Rose) – April 12, 2014

“With the engines being damaged, the Enterprise was a sitting duck and I doubt it would have taken the Klingons long to despatch it, along with the remaining torpedoes with Khan’s crew.” – Keachick (Rose)

I think what people are forgetting is these are bleeding edge LONG RANGE torpedoes which can rain down on the enemy before they can get with range to fire said enemy’s weapons on ENTERPRISE. Also, because of the various forces, etc. in space the weapons systems must function accurately under a variety of conditions, automatic weapons lock must be adaptive to some degree, i.e. the more you fire a particular weapon the more accurately the automate can estimate the weapons lock for the prevailing conditions, especially in regards to a brand new weapon it has never fired before. And not only that but the humans themselves, can adapt with experience gained after firing each shot.

When Marcus set about to perfect his plan he had to consider the worst case (for him) scenario(s). What I would like to know is what did he plan to do if:

1. ENTERPRISE arrives at edge of neutral zone.
2. Locks on to John Harrison.
3. Fires 1 long range torpedo.
4. Lucky shot! Confirmed kill.
5. ENTERPRISE Hauls ass either before coolant bomb can disable it or because resultant damage was not enough to disable or it just plain failed?

Now in this one:

Marcus (and Kirk) knows from Uhura’s intercepted transmission in the 2009 film of the battle the Klingons lost against Nero’s reclaimed Narada that the Klingons are willing, at most, to sacrifice the destruction of 47 Klingon Warbirds in a battle.

1. ENTERPRISE arrives at edge of neutral zone.
2. Locks on to John Harrison.
3. Fires 1 long range torpedo.
4. Lucky shot! Confirmed kill.
5. Coolant bomb disables E.

Kirk has 70 long range torpedoes left with a range that reaches as far back as the Klingon Homeworld.and 45 Klingon Warbirds to dispatch before they get in range of the E to use their weapons. Marcus probably underestimates Kirk’s cunning, but as fans, do we really feel comfortable declaring “Given those resources he’s toast; not even Prime Kirk could come up with some plan, strategy or bluff to prevail?”

1066. Disinvited - April 13, 2014

#1065. Disinvited – April 13, 2014

Err….71 are left. So even better for him.

1067. Curious Cadet - April 13, 2014

@1062. Cygnus-X1 –
“Needlessly putting that extremely sensitive evidence (and those potentially dangerous Augments) in the hands of Kirk was just too much servicing the plot at the expense of the characters.”

I’m in total agreement with this. That’s really what we’re debating, not whether aspects of the story on film as presented are possible within the universe they’re presented.

So back to Marcus — I concede poetic justice is not the right way of looking at this for Marcus. How about, “Alright son, you wanna defy me, and you’re stupid enough to try and do it by putting your people inside torpedoes? Then how about I ram them right up your a$$”. Is it inconsistent with everything else we saw of Marcus? Maybe. But we didn’t see enough of Marcus. Perhaps because of the models on his desk, I always imagined Marcus as being romantic about war itself, and could see him spending evenings with Khan, delighting in discussing war with an actual 20th century warlord, in his study surrounded by actual books, and battlefield dioramas he constructed himself. Marcus came off as a jilted lover to me at the end when discussing Khan, and nothing sparks passion, and makes people do foolish things like a lover’s quarrel. I believe Marcus let Khan get too close to him, and thought his relationship went beyond the bounds of why he originally woke Khan — and I would expect no less from what we know about Khan’s manipulative powers. So the torpedo move was a spiteful one, it made no sense as part of his outward persona, but then no one is truly two-dimensional.

But in terms of writing a movie, it’s one more ridiculous twist that the audience has to suspend of their already thinly-stretched disbelief. We simply don’t know enough about Marcus from the film for that behavior to make sense.

Agreed the ability to “lock onto Harrison” from the Neutral Zone falls firmly into Red-Matter territory, transwarp transporting, and magic blood. It all erodes the ability to tell a suspenseful story with so many easy outs available — forcing the writers to find ways to find ever more restrictive ways to eliminate those options.

But as far as torpedoes, let’s take Kahn’s crew out of them. The plan works fine. Load a ship with new “stealth” torpedoes, which have greater range and are untraceable. Why would you ever fire a conventional torpedo again, especially in a culture where money is not an issue? Send the ship to the neutral zone and fire some. With the ship disabled, having a surplus to fire in battle, even 71, isn’t much against an armada. It’s not like one torpedo, is going to do much damage against a heavily shielded Klingon ship anyway. But here’s food for thought, and yet another point where the film could have been more clear: Let’s say when Marcus gave the Enterprise the 72 long-range “stealth” torpedoes, and assuming with the intent for Kirk to fire them all, did Marcus remove all of Enterprise’s existing complement? Because if he didn’t, the Enterprise was just as prepared to defend itself after firing all 72 new torpedoes. We know from the movie the Enterprise could load 72 torpedoes at once, but was that the limit it could load and carry? And if so, WOW what a COINCIDENCE!

1068. Curious Cadet - April 13, 2014

@1062,63,64. Cygnus-X1 –

P.S. Just so my position is clear, I’m making a distinction between the poorly developed story, and what’s actually in the movie.

It is ridiculous that Marcus intimates they can just “lock onto” Harrison from the edge of The Neutral Zone to target him for the torpedo, but yet, that’s what the film tells us. And if you contest that’s not clear enough to know, then consider this: the Enterprise stopped 20 minutes from Kronos, and even at warp 1, that’s still a long way from Kronos — yet even from that considerable distance the Enterprise is able to detect a single life sign in the Ketha Province.

Do I like it? No. But in context it unfortunately makes sense.

1069. Disinvited - April 13, 2014

#1067. Curious Cadet – April 13, 2014

FWIW We know Khan worked on other projects besides the torpedoes. In the quote in my message 1014, Marcus’ daughter says he gave her access to everything except when the torpedoes came up, that project was when he began behaving out of character by her own observation.

1070. Keachick (Rose) - April 13, 2014

#1057 – My tolerances? Yikes. So you want me to go all “Minority Report” on us here now? I have no idea. Do you?

#1059 – How do we know how far Kronos was from the edge of the neutral zone? Why is it necessarily light years? Marcus talks about these torpedoes – but how long range?

So far as “locking onto”, knowing exactly where Khan was, is that not what the Enterprise managed to do? Sulu relayed the co-ordinates to Kirk as he flew the shuttle into that area of Kronos…and, guess what, Khan was within cooey of those coordinates. This also puts to rest this notion that Kronos had to be necessarily light years within that edge of the neutral zone. After all, a small shuttle craft was able to make it to Kronos within a short period of time. Did it have warp drive? It did not appear to have such or else Kirk did not see the need to engage it, given the relatively short distance they had to travel.

The assumption also being made here is that this type of new long range torpedo had not been tested before. Why would that be the case? I would suggest that it had been tested and did have these capabilities. Who says that they only made 72 of them?

That bit in the film, just after Kirk realizes that they are not moving nor likely to in a while, he says something like, “That’s 20 minutes we don’t have” – that always confused me. However, none of what anyone is saying here explains it either. Need to watch again…:)

1071. Keachick (Rose) - April 13, 2014

Re: the notion of Kirk being able to go back in time and it was to be an accurate replay -

Given what he knew, he would not have gone after Harrison/Khan, he would have gone after Marcus. If he had killed Marcus then, Kirk may not have gained much, certainly not for himself, because he would have been charged and convicted of murder. He would have rendered himself pretty much useless…In his defence, Kirk could have given the coordinates for where the Vengeance etc was being built, but even then, he probably did not know who else (very high up in Starfleet and/or UPF) may have been involved in developing these secret weapons and ship(s). Still, the murder charge, conviction and sentence would stand.

Kirk knew that he and the other personnel were not able to stop Khan inflicting death and destruction on SFHQ. The only way Kirk could stop Khan was by crippling the copters engines, but Khan still had his escape route and the copter was heavily shielded. Khan was going to escape…

The only other sensible and legitimate option that Kirk had, may have been able to do is to prevent Pike becoming mortally wounded. How Pike living may have affected future events could be an interesting story.

Going after either Marcus or Khan would be a silly path to take…if only Kirk had the hindsight that he/we have now…but that is not how life often works, whether for better or worse.

Life is all about twists and turns, some bigger and more life changing than others…so what’s the problem here, people, with writers presenting twists? It would make for a dull story indeed and something that no one would bother debating, discussing etc 11 months after the movie’s release.

Some may lament the apparent silliness of STID story. I lament much of the silliness that is far more immediate.

1072. Curious Cadet - April 13, 2014

@1070/71 Keachick (Rose),

I see you changed the conditions of the test. Very clever.

Then how about an easy one: back to the moment on Kronos where Kirk & paty lands, but this time evading the Klingons. They see Khan, and orders him to surrender. Khan turns and runs. Kirk and company pursue, but quickly realize they are no match for Khan. They then drop to one knee and stun him, but it has no effect. So what do you do next? Do you try and kill Khan with your weapon? Or do you return to the Enterprise and fire the torpedoes? Because clearly they will never catch him on foot.

By the way, yes the Mudd ship has warp capability. It is an interstellar smugglers ship. But why the confusion. How do you know Kirk didn’t go to warp? It’s not like we saw the 20 minute trip to Kronos in real time. Moreover, the Enterprise was traveling at warp when Chekov shut it down — 20 minutes from Kronos (at light speed!). Even at warp 1, that necessarily means a substantial distance. But now, instead of zipping through at warp, the Enterprise is just a sitting duck in space for twenty minutes while Mudd’s ship completes the trip, both ways!

1073. Disinvited - April 13, 2014

# 1070. Keachick (Rose) – April 13, 2014

“After all, a small shuttle craft was able to make it to Kronos within a short period of time. Did it have warp drive?” – Keachick (Rose)

It wasn’t a shuttle. It was a trade ship.

Sulu: “Acting Captain Sulu to shuttle-bay two. Please have the trade ship we confiscated during Mudd incident last month, fueled and flight ready.”

And I would say to be competitive or in service to Amazon of that era, it had to be a warp capable starship.

Here’s what some other fans think:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/K'normian_trading_ship

“The assumption also being made here is that this type of new long range torpedo had not been tested before. Why would that be the case? I would suggest that it had been tested and did have these capabilities. Who says that they only made 72 of them?” – Keachick (Rose)

Even if some torpedoes had been tested. It is for certain they hadn’t been tested AFTER Khan modified the fuel tanks and made added demands on their power source to keep his Popsicles viable and made other changes for shielding which would have either made more weight changes and/or made further demands on the source of power and propulsion of the 72 that were placed into service of this task (This I why I fully expected that if they had been fired in Kirk’s mission the first few volleys would have missed.) If they had been tested, then some of Khan’s people would have already gone BOOM and there would have been no getting him to surrender.

1074. Keachick (Rose) - April 13, 2014

#1072 – No, you do not fire torpedoes at a country or world because that turns out to be the only way you can bring a person you deem to be a criminal/terrorist down.

The only recourse Kirk and party would have is to return to the Enterprise and consider the mission to capture Khan a failure – this time. However, there will come a time… The hunting down and capture of criminals/serial killers can take time.

As for time taken to get to Kronos from the stranded Enterprise, I don’t know. I thought that the E was stranded on the edge of the neutral zone and that the only way they could hope to capture Khan alive was by taking in the small Mudd ship and physically bring him back, whether by hand or beaming him aboard this rather small trade ship. The main reason they used the Mudd ship was because it could not be identified as being a Starfleet vessel.

I get the impression that Kirk would rather have caught Khan alive without the Klingons knowing anything, but decided that because they were captured, to be open and honest about why they were. Kirk probably figured that there was a good chance they might run into Klingon, given they were going to the Klingon homeworld, which is why he brought along the resident xenolinguist, Lt Uhura. They were determined to bring Khan back to stand trial and were going to do their darndest to make it happen – WITHOUT committing an unprovoked hostile act on another world.

1075. Keachick (Rose) - April 14, 2014

Golly gosh – where is everyone?

1076. Jackson Roykirk - April 14, 2014

Can’t wait for the next film. I just have two questions:

1. When will the 3rd Abrams Trek film be released?
2. Will it be the last of a trilogy (like the Nolan Batman films)?

I think it’s pretty clear that summer 2016 will be the expected release target. 50th anniversary of Star Trek and all. And yes, it will be 1 year after The Mouse House releases Abrams’ Star Wars Episode VII, so the SW hype will have tapered off. No, I’m not a Trek vs. Wars partisan. Yes, it makes sense to schedule your tentpole franchise film around competing tentpole franchise films.

And is a trilogy is enough for this Trek generation? Three and out might be perfect. The origin story, then a re-imagining of (arguably) the greatest villain of ST:TOS, then a bittersweet closure story that will send our heroes off to future adventures. That would avoid the hassles (cast contract negotiations), and pitfalls (running out of good story ideas) and harsh realities (aging actors, box office variance) that a long-running film series would run into.

1077. Curious Cadet - April 14, 2014

@1074. Keachick (Rose),
“No, you do not fire torpedoes at a country or world because that turns out to be the only way you can bring a person you deem to be a criminal/terrorist down….The hunting down and capture of criminals/serial killers can take time.”

“Deem” a criminal/terrorist? Do you dispute that Khan is a criminal and a terrorist? The movie was extremely clear on that point, I thought. The trial was merely a formality. So the capture of criminals can take time, eh? Like the hunt for Osama Bin Laden?

Nevertheless, I see I have to propose yet another scenario — So everything happens as it did right up to Kirk confronting Khan. But this time instead of surrendering, Khan runs off (lets say he didn’t hear Sulu’s broadcast about the 72 torpedoes) leaving Kirk, Uhura and Spock standing helplessly in the carnage of the dead Klingons, many of whom they killed (“defending themselves”). The security guards, whom we never see again, are most likely victims as well. By your assessment, the three of them must return to the Enterprise without Khan, to come searching another day. But what if Khan stays on Kronos? Once the Klingons figure out what happened, there will be no going back to Kronos to get Khan. And Khan knows all of Starfleets top secrets. We know from the movie, that Khan intends to continue the work he was doing before he was frozen, which Spock tells us was the mass genocide of anyone he deems inferior. But now, Khan is out of reach. Free to come and go as he pleases to wreak havoc on the galaxy, perhaps even making a deal with the Klingons and compromising the Federation’s security in the process. And Kirk has to go back and tell Marcus that happened. That not only in trying to avoid firing torpedoes in a hostile act on Kronos, they failed to take down Khan. Instead they illegally crossed the Neautral Zone (in of itself an act of war), invaded a sovereign world (an act of hostile aggression in anyone’s books), illegally killed Klingons in the process, and alerted the Klingons to this act of aggression, thereby increasing the probability of war, especially if Khan ever reveals himself to them. In the meantime, a KNOWN criminal and terrorist is left free to continue to engage in his criminal activities. Thousands if not millions of lives will be lost before and IF Khan is ever brought down.

Now what would you do?

——————————–
“As for time taken to get to Kronos from the stranded Enterprise, I don’t know.”

Well, I do, having referenced the closed captioned transcript which you can easily Google and obtain for yourself if you don’t trust us. The Enterprise was stranded 20 minutes at-warp from Kronos — in Klingon space, as confirmed by Kirk’s remark that they are in “enemy space”. The plan was evidently to swing by Kronos, beam up Khan, whom they had a fix on from 20 minutes at-warp away, and be off before the Klingons knew what hit them. Mudd’s interstellar trade ship evidently did not have transporters or they would have used them.

1078. Disinvited - April 14, 2014

# 1074. Keachick (Rose) – April 13, 2014

” I get the impression that Kirk would rather have caught Khan alive without the Klingons knowing anything, but decided that because they were captured, to be open and honest about why they were.” – Keachick (Rose)

And I think instead of telling the whole truth which clearly was a mistake, they should have told a variation that fit the dressing they had already put on it: They should have said the individual they were after had a price on his head that made it worth their while to try and collect it. Then offer the Klingons a deal (You never know when someone might be a Republican.) with some upfront Klingon lusted after goods already in the trade ship’s stores and promise of more from another location where one of the parties in this deal can’t just kill the others and take all the valuables.

Come to think of it, as they had a Trade ship in their possession, I’m surprised Spock hadn’t already extracted from the Tradeship’s computers a list of trading contacts that would have made this whole operation in Klingon space go smoother from the git go?

1079. Cygnus-X1 - April 14, 2014

1067. Curious Cadet – April 13, 2014

@1062. Cygnus-X1 –
“Needlessly putting that extremely sensitive evidence (and those potentially dangerous Augments) in the hands of Kirk was just too much servicing the plot at the expense of the characters.”

I’m in total agreement with this. That’s really what we’re debating, not whether aspects of the story on film as presented are possible within the universe they’re presented.

So, just to be clear, the issue that you and Disinvited were debating regards the construction of the story, how certain plot devices and plot points conspicuously serve the plot as opposed to following naturally consequent to or arising out of characters’ motivations and arcs or even being in service of a strong theme. To put it another way, the construction of STID is too plot-driven as opposed to character-driven.

Obviously I think that’s true, but I also think that some of the characters (Marcus) are logically inconsistent within the story, and some (Khan, Spock) have been “re-imagined” by the writers as lesser versions of what they used to be.

I don’t recall any evidence in support of the “lovers quarrel” premise between Marcus and Khan. Khan seemed a slave to Marcus from the get-go. If memory serves, according to Khan, he did Marcus’s bidding because Marcus was holding Khan’s 72 buddies hostage.

1080. crazydaystrom - April 14, 2014

1075. Keachick (Rose)

“Golly gosh – where is everyone?”

Hi folks. I’m still around Rose. Quite a discussion going that’s been going on here. I do enjoy the absence of negativity here these days but the absence of news re the next movie is a bit of a downer for me. And I’ve never been one to really get into discussions on the minutia of story points and character motivations. Particularly on a film that doesn’t move me to do so. I watched STiD again this weekend and I still find it to be a beautifully produced ably acted Star Trek trifle. My opinion, of course. That does not lessen my love of the franchise and the TOS characters (my favorite crew). Nor my hopes for a great and satisfying Trek 50! Fingers still crossed.

1081. crazydaystrom - April 14, 2014

OT-

Anyone else here excited about Transcendence? I believe it opens this week and I’m expecting some fine science fiction with this one.

1082. moauvian waoul - April 14, 2014

548. Kamin – if you’re still out there.

While we may draw a different conclusion or more importantly, understanding of the effects such conclusions have had on the greater community, I appreciate your obviously sincere feelings and heartfelt apology. It isn’t necessary that you or I apologize for the acts done by the larger society, I believe, just that we try to understand that there may be others who have different experiences and concerns, and that we respect those. That is something you have certainly mastered.
Take care. :)

1083. Keachick (Rose) - April 14, 2014

#1077 – “The trial was merely a formality. So the capture of criminals can take time, eh? Like the hunt for Osama Bin Laden?”

Well, the hunt for Osama Bin Laden did take time, didn’t it?

So now I know where *you* stand on the need for trial and how you dismiss the notion of “man to have his day in court”, ie the judicial system. Kirk was not made aware of who John Harrison really was and what his story was. Kirk also told this Khan, later when Kirk was co-opting Khan to help him go aboard the Vengeance, that Khan would stand trial (ie nothing had changed re Khan’s status as a criminal), where among other things, Khan would get to tell his side of the story – because there are generally at least two sides to any story.

However, it seems that you don’t want that and in the case of Bin Laden, we’ve never heard his story, nor have independent sources been allowed to verify that the man killed is in fact Osama Bin Laden. This just makes a mockery of any sane, creditable judicial system.

Hostile acts – well, Kirk’s decision was the lesser of two evils. Either way, in order to get this guy Harrison/Khan, they were heading into those ick murky depths, a less than honest route. Firing torpedoes at an area of a world, that is supposedly uninhabited is a MORE aggressive, hostile act than what Kirk and co. decided to do.

So are you calling people who cross from Mexico into the US illegally hostile aggressors, when they have not necessarily stolen, lied, hurt or killed anyone? Interesting…

As far as speculating on what this individual Harrison (because that is who he was to Kirk at this point) would do, well Kirk had not been given all the information about this individual and nor it seems had Carol Marcus either, so he would have had a lot of speculating and inferring to do. That was not within his mission or brief. Kirk had seen for himself how dangerous H/K could be…Kirk had no reason to suspect that Marcus was *lying by omission* about Harrison/Khan and of what H/K was really capable of being and doing.

*So Kirk gets booted back to the Academy for lying by omission, when what he and co. did was to save a people from certain death, at that point in time. Meanwhile the Admiral, Head of Starfleet, lies by omission in order to attempt to prevent a man from being given a fair hearing, get his own people killed and bring about a war in the process.

Yet so many audience have been so very quick to dump on Kirk big time, but not so much on Admiral Marcus. That has been my definite impression as I have read the hundreds of posts since the release of STID in May 2013.

Seriously, why is that?
Enough of the bs.

Frankly, anyone can speculate (in hindsight), crystal ball gaze etc, as you have done, Curious Cadet. Kirk acted on the information he had to hand at that time and had no reason to suspect it to be unreliable. The fact that he found out later the what’s, who’s, why’s does not undermine the decision he took earlier. We all act on what we believe and think is true. It is really a question of whether you are making the more moral, right and just judgment at the time of having to make it. Kirk did that.

1084. moauvian waoul - April 14, 2014

What?! The reign of terror is over? The wicked witch is dead. It’s safe to come out? Say it ain’t so Toto!
Though I’ve been guilty of throwing around a few colorful metephores at him. It’s become so civil around here lately, and quiet. …Almost toooooo quiet.

1085. Ahmed - April 14, 2014

Payne & McKay are getting ready for a new project!

============================

‘Star Trek 3′ Writers Are Working on New Version of ‘Flash Gordon’?

When the comedy Ted hit theaters in 2012, we got a taste of Flash Gordon all over again, albeit in the form of coked up 80s film star Sam Jones. But now it looks like the hero who was given his own sci-fi film and turned into a cult classic (with a catch theme song from Queen) will be given a facelift for an all-new adaptation on the big screen.

Over the years, there have been a few attempts to rework Flash Gordon, and now another try is coming together with J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay, the duo behind the script for Star Trek 3, developing the hopeful project that is currently striking a deal for studio home. More below!

Payne and McKay are relatively unknown writers, but they’ve gotten work after writing an adaptation of Boilerplate for Bad Robot and also a stylistic take on the Biblical tale of Goliath. None of their scripts have been turned into feature films yet, but their writing has certainly turned some heads.

This new version is said to go back to the core of the comic strips by Alex Raymond from 80 years ago. FilmDivider has the report, and say the new version will “reclaim Flash Gordon from his current reputation in the way that Tim Burton redirected the public conception of Batman.”

http://www.firstshowing.net/2014/star-trek-3-writers-are-working-on-new-version-of-flash-gordon/

1086. crazydaystrom - April 14, 2014

1085. Ahmed

“Payne & McKay are getting ready for a new project!”

*sigh*
You know…I’m not even going to say it.
*sigh*

Where are they supposed to be on the next Trek film? I mean how far along?

1087. Ahmed - April 14, 2014

@ 1086. crazydaystrom – April 14, 2014

“Where are they supposed to be on the next Trek film? I mean how far along?”

Payne said that they will submit the script in May, at least that is what he said in the video back in February. But there is no official confirmation & Bob is not sharing any info or even doing interviews these days.

1088. Curious Cadet - April 14, 2014

@1083. Keachick (Rose),
“So now I know where *you* stand on the need for trial and how you dismiss the notion of “man to have his day in court”, ie the judicial system….where among other things, Khan would get to tell his side of the story – because there are generally at least two sides to any story.”

You have no idea where I stand. Khan’s “story” makes absolutely NO difference as to what he’s guilty of doing. There is NO justification for anything he did. Who cares if he has a backstory? Having his day in court changes nothing with respect to his terrorist actions. Perhaps it may get Marcus indicted, but it does not mitigate Khan’s actions. And that’s the point. And I do not disagree with you that Khan should have his day in court. I disagree with you as to how important that is in context with the actions of STID.

___________________
“So are you calling people who cross from Mexico into the US illegally hostile aggressors, when they have not necessarily stolen, lied, hurt or killed anyone? Interesting…”

No I am not. That’s your straw man argument.

1089. Marja - April 14, 2014

1075 Rose, I’ve been checking in and out, but the torpedos argument started getting old for me … though I do think Cygnus [as he often does] made a great point about the movie being too PLOT-driven when it should have been more CHARACTER-driven.

With such great characters, it makes me sad that they resorted to so, so, many confusing, rushed plot points to speed pell-mell [with stops for head squeezin' kidney-kickin' violence along the way] to the end.

I am really hoping McKay and Payne don’t get too distracted with Other Projects [rully! "Flash Gordon"?? WHY.] to do a really thorough, good writing job for Trek’s 50th — shades of STiD all over again.

I’ve a bad feeling the Klingons will feature largely in Trek3 :-(

1090. Keachick (Rose) - April 14, 2014

#1072 – “I see you changed the conditions of the test. Very clever.”

Why – thank you…:)

#1057 – “What if at the end of the movie when Kirk is realigning the injectors, that the act of kicking them back online while the warp core is active combined with plunging in a gravity well somehow resets the time line, and Kirk finds himself at the staff meeting minutes before Khan’s attack. Kirk immediately realizes where he is, tells Marcus it’s a trap with no time to explain, makes a dash for the emergency heavy weapons, blows out a window and kills Khan before he can start firing the weapons. Is that OK?”

My contention is with this scenario – why would Kirk necessarily choose this path, since he would know the outcome already? He already knows that any amount of firing on the helicopter/Khan would not make any difference because using available firepower was not how he disabled the helicopter first time around. He also knows that Marcus is duplicitous and would surely want to arrest him.

I think it was not long after they started discussing the matter that Kirk realized that this meeting could be a trap. In your scenario, could Kirk have even been able to do as you suggest before being stopped by security personnel? I doubt it.

You, Curious Cadet, changed the conditions, by allowing Kirk to have foreknowledge and information that he did not previously have. Therefore, there is no guarantee he would make the same decision again or the one you suggest. I wrote that a good legal option would be to actively try to save Pike’s life.

I have just seen the latest posts –
“You have no idea where I stand. Khan’s “story” makes absolutely NO difference as to what he’s guilty of doing.”

I wrote “you” with *, as in meaning that what you appear to be saying seems to be in line with a great many other people’s thinking about these issues. As for Khan’s story making no difference, is that not what Kirk intimated to Khan, when Kirk told him that he would still stand trial? In other words, whatever mitigating circumstances Khan might have, Kirk still witnessed what he had done and wanted him to answer/pay for that crime. The STID Kirk story was not allowing Khan to get away with anything.

Marja – The bit about whether Marcus meant Kirk to fire all torpedoes or some is old and a bit silly really. However, what is being discussed is not about how many, but whether the order was at all OK in the first place. It was not.

This may well be the crux/allegory of the STID story as in – how do we hunt down terrorists?, why is it not so important that they get their day in court but serial killers can (nobody doubts the shocking horror and suffering that serial killers inflict)? If you go in and simply kill the terrorist(s) then no one gets to find out all of the facts/truth and of course, there is no need for any legal representation etc and all those other *annoying* little “niceties” that we think are important, or are they?

Many people, including me, have a definite impression that just about anyone can be labelled a terrorist or someone having terrorist connections. All it may take is agreeing with a particular line of reasoning which goes against what various toffs deem to be “national security”. Hell, after this, I might get targeted as being some sort of “terrorist affiliate” or some such shit.

As soon as Khan got called a terrorist, then all his legal rights flew out the window in STID and obviously they do today as well…and that’s OK?

1091. Curious Cadet - April 14, 2014

@1083. Keachick (Rose),
“Firing torpedoes at an area of a world, that is supposedly uninhabited is a MORE aggressive, hostile act than what Kirk and co. decided to do.”

You keep saying that. But let’s see what actually happened in the movie:

What we know —

Marcus said at the staff meeting: “42 men and women are dead. One hour ago,I received a message from a Starfleet officer, who confessed to carrying out this attack, that he was being forced to do it by this man, Commander John Harrison. He’s one of our own. And he is the man responsible for this act of savagery. For reasons unknown, John Harrison has just declared a one-man war against Starfleet. …And in the name of those we lost, you will run this bastard down. This is a manhunt, pure and simple, so let’s get to work. … This man has shown willingness to kill innocent people, so the rules of engagement are simple. If you come across this man and fear for your life or the lives of those nearby, you are authorized to use deadly force on sight.”

Kirk then says: “If he really wanted to damage Starfleet, this could just be the beginning.”

Shortly after that statement, Khan attacked them, murdering untold innocent victims.

Khan is therefore unquestionably guilty of being a murder and terrorist intent on doing continued harm to the Federation.

He then flees to Kronos where the Federation can’t get to him, either physically or through diplomatic means, because Marcus tells us: “He knows if we even go near Klingon space, it’d be all-out war.”

He also is a top agent, whom Kirk does not know whether he may be defecting or not.

Marcus tells us that Section 31: “were developing defense technology and training our officers to gather intelligence on the Klingons and any other potential enemy who means to do us harm. Harrison was one of our top agents.”

So, Khan is a top agent working for a division of Starfleet whose primary purpose was to gather intelligence on the Klingons. So it goes to figure that the agents, especially a top agent, would know how to speak Klingon pretty well in order to gather this intelligence. Now Khan’s taken his top secret knowledge of Starfleet to Kronos, where starfleet cannot even approach without starting war. And he has signaled his intent to cause harm to Starfleet, which with transwarp beaming and a safe base of operations, Khan can continue his criminal terrorism and murder of innocents, alone or in consort with the Klingons.

1092. Curious Cadet - April 14, 2014

@1083. Keachick (Rose), MORE^^^^

Now we have Marcus’ plan to take out Khan:
1) From outside Klingon space, potentially violate treaty terms, and fire an untraceable torpedo into an uninhabited area of Kronos, which will lock onto Khan and take him out.
2) The Klingons will note an unexplained explosion in an area of the planet the clearly don’t care anything about. They will investigate and likely conclude a meteor strike likely caused the explosion, or finding a concrete source with nothing else to go on, classify it as unsolved and move on forgetting about it. No one else dies because of Khan.

Now we have Kirk’s actual effort to take out Khan:
1) Clearly violate the Neutral Zone and terms of the treaty by taking a heavily armed Starfleet vessel directly to Kronos.
2) Strand a heavily armed Starfleet vessel in Klingon space in violation of treaty.
3) Take a non-Starfleet vessel to Kronos, clearly traceable to the stranded Starfleet ship, dressed as civilians and thus classifying them as spies.
4) Have the Enterprise broadcast an open channel transmission to the surface of Kronos, signaling their illegal presence.
5) Illegally enter Kronos sovereign territory, evaded a Klingon patrol, resulting in the death of said patrol.
6) Resist arrest by Klingon authorities.
7) Confront Klingon authorities brandishing weapons.
8) Assists Khan in killing Klingon authorities, likely resulting in the death of Hendorff and another security guard as they are never seen again in the film.

Now, who has engaged in the more aggressive treaty violating behavior, resulting in the additional loss of life in the name of Khan?

Clearly Kirk’s reckless plan did. The follow up is that the Klingons investigated, and discovered someone decimated a Klingon patrol. Fortunately for Kirk, Klingons are either complete idiots in the forensics department, or they managed to get away without leaving any Starfleet fingerprints. But surely the Klingons would have discovered evidence that a K’normian trade ship had been there. Perhaps footage of the pursuit recording by the patrol ship, or captured by satellite surveillance. Either way, the Klingons are now likely headed to the K’normian home world to torture and kill innocents who had nothing to do with Starfleet or Khan.

Now let’s go back to my last hypothetical: had Khan not surrendered, you would have Kirk go back to the Enterprise, empty-handed, two of his crewmen dead, and entire Klingon patrol dead, leaving Khan alive to continue his terrorist activities, posing a substantial liability to the Federation should the Klingons capture him and manage to obtain top secret information from him. They simply head back and report to Marcus what happened, hoping that neither Khan nor the Klingons do anything that result in the further loss of Federation life, including the K’Normians who may or may not have been members of the Federation at this time, until such time they have another opportunity to capture Khan, which thanks to Kirk having put the Klingons on alert would have likely been a very long time.

1093. Disinvited - April 15, 2014

#1088. Curious Cadet – April 14, 2014

Be that as it may, there IS something to be said for not killing a primary witness, if at all possible, BEFORE you indict and try all the other possible co-conspirators in his lengthy list of crimes. This may explain why at the end of STID it appears Khan is not killed but refrozen.

#1092. Curious Cadet – April 14, 2014

“He knows if we even go near Klingon space, it’d be all-out war.”

And yet, during the course of STID both Kirk and MARCUS so do and then some. This line of reasoning seems to dictate that the Klingon War has already started. Marcus might be dead but he got what he wanted.

1094. Keachick (Rose) - April 15, 2014

@Bob Orci -

Since you were one of the writers of this script that we are so busy picking to bits, who is more correct as to what was the better way to go – the Admiral Marcus route or the route Kirk (with Spock) decided to take?

Is Jim Kirk a genuine hero or a reckless upstart, as many here would have us believe?

A proper response would be appreciated. Thank you.

1095. Keachick (Rose) - April 15, 2014

If the Enterprise was stranded in Klingon space, when the Vengeance turned up, there were now two Starfleet ships in that space, one much bigger and having a much more powerful weaponry. Yet there were no Klingon ships seen giving chase, just Marcus(Vengeance) chasing Kirk(Enterprise)…

By the time the Vengeance turned up, the Enterprise had been sitting there (in Klingon space?) for quite a while.

1096. Marja - April 15, 2014

I got a kick out of the sound effect for Vengeance overtaking the Enterprise. She kinda sounded like the biggest B-17 bomber ever.

1097. Curious Cadet - April 15, 2014

@1079. Cygnus-X1,
“To put it another way, the construction of STID is too plot-driven as opposed to character-driven.”

Yes. The filmmakers came up with a bunch of cool stuff to do and then forced the characters to do things they might not otherwise do to make it happen.

————————-
“I also think that some of the characters (Marcus) are logically inconsistent within the story, and some (Khan, Spock) have been “re-imagined” by the writers as lesser versions of what they used to be.”

And while I would agree all of that is true to some extent, when debating the movie, if it’s in the movie then it must be explained in context with the film. And by and large it is, regardless of wholesale changes to the original material.

————————-
“I don’t recall any evidence in support of the “lovers quarrel” premise between Marcus and Khan. Khan seemed a slave to Marcus from the get-go. If memory serves, according to Khan, he did Marcus’s bidding because Marcus was holding Khan’s 72 buddies hostage.”

That’s because we don’t really know anything about Marcus, except he has a penchant for building and displaying ship models. Anything we know about who else Marcus is as a three dimensional character must be extrapolated from that. Based on Carol Marcus’ behavior, I would also say the admiral is a doting father, and likely a big softe around his daughter out of the public eye.

The character we do know the backstory of is Khan (and lord knows none of it is from STID). Khan is a master manipulator. Even if Khan knew Marcus was holding his people hostage from the beginning (and the IDW comic retcons that he didn’t), Khan is too smart to let Marcus know he was cooperating for that sole reason. He would have won Marcus’ trust and confidence. One could argue that’s why Marcus relaxed his iron fist giving Khan any opportunity to reclaim his people. If Marcus then was the romantic who built dioramas of great battles in his basement, and read every biography of every great leader there was, debating over the downfall of historical dictators over dinner, then I can see Khan playing on that to get close to Marcus — telling him how grateful he is for the opportunity to put his skills to work for such a great 23rd century mastermind, and Marcus is “smitten” with having a real life 20th Century warlord in his midst who “understands him”. That is the only explanation I can see for Marcus’ behavior at the end. Kirk already knows all about Khan, so why (other then to serve the plot) does Marcus wear his heart on his sleeve and go on and on about Khan and what he’s done? He’s going to destroy the Enterprise anyway, right? Why not just verify Khan is onboard and then cut communications and blow the ship apart in Klingon space? What Marcus did is “spurned lover” behavior. Marcus wants to vent to someone and Kirk is the only person he can vent to about it, because he’s going to kill him.

But like I said, none of that is actually in the film, and that’s one of the problems. We don’t know who these characters are, only what they do — much of which makes no sense.

I imagine part of this is the studios fault too. My guess is few of the decision makers know much about Star Trek, so they figure put some guys in charge who are big fans of the show and they can’t go wrong considering the success of ST09. They watch the directors cut and even though it doesnt make much sense they dont know anything about Star Trek, so maybe its supposed to be this way. But the suits do know from box office and I’m sure the domestic drop-off of STID told them something. Guess we’ll see with the next film.

1098. Cygnus-X1 - April 15, 2014

1097. Curious Cadet – April 15, 2014

@1079. Cygnus-X1,
“To put it another way, the construction of STID is too plot-driven as opposed to character-driven.”

Yes. The filmmakers came up with a bunch of cool stuff to do and then forced the characters to do things they might not otherwise do to make it happen.

We agree! Cheers!

I stop short of speculating on events not shown or even alluded to in the movie. That’s a potentially interminable mess that I don’t need to get into. I agree that Marcus’s behavior, specifically the Augment-laden torpedoes, is possible within the context of the movie; I just think it’s too stupid for that character. But I think we’ve reached a reasonable meeting of minds on this issue.

Regarding this:

I imagine part of this is the studios fault too. My guess is few of the decision makers know much about Star Trek, so they figure put some guys in charge who are big fans of the show and they can’t go wrong considering the success of ST09. They watch the directors cut and even though it doesnt make much sense they dont know anything about Star Trek, so maybe its supposed to be this way.

I could be wrong, but I actually think it was a bit more insidious than this on the part of Bad Robot. I think that they purposefully made the movie confusing and difficult to follow—mainly by having it be fast-paced and not bothering to explain things—exacerbating the confusion already intrinsic to the plot, in an effort to trick the audience into thinking that the movie was deep and clever. “That movie went right over my head, but I’m sure it all makes sense. The people who made the movie must be really intelligent and deep!”

1099. Ahmed - April 15, 2014

Another “dark” Trek fan film *sigh*

==============================

Star Trek – Horizon

Star Trek: Horizon is a feature-length film set during the time of Enterprise (the fifth Star Trek series).

The Coalition of Planets, a young alliance of worlds led by Earth, is at war with the Romulan Empire. Desperate for a chance to gain the upper hand in the war, the Coalition forms an alliance with T’mar, a Romulan deserter, in the hopes that she can provide valuable intelligence on her former masters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6lvauYhw70

==============================

1100. TrekMadeMeWonder - April 15, 2014

1095. Keachick

I agree, Keachick.

I’d say, the Vengeance was the most foreboding Star Fleet ship I’ve ever seen in the “Federation”.

The concept and presentation were pretty good, except that is was constructed in deep space. That really threw me. But, the Vengeance was impressive onscreen, and the thought that such an instrument could be used for Vengeance, made it all the more scarier!

1101. Curious Cadet - April 15, 2014

@1098. Cygnus-X1,
“The people who made the movie must be really intelligent and deep!”

Haha! I know Hollywood people and that’s certainly not beyond any of them.

But in the case of STID, I feel like it’s more of a case of too many cooks, or in this instance, too many Gordan Ramseys. I recall at the time STID was coming out there was an article in Variety I think, which called Damon Lindelof “the most powerful writer in Hollywood”. If that’s what the industry press thought of him, what must it have been like to work with him?

Orci goes on about how harmonious and lovey-dovey it was working with all the personalities in the writers room, but I can’t help but imagine a struggle for point of view, which at the end of the day is probably the thing most lacking from STID. What exactly is the message? Seriously, I imagine Orci stomping his foot yelling “no no no, we cannot have a terrorist with brown skin!!!”. I can only imagine the series of compromises between what Lindelof wanted, Orci & Kurtzman wanted, and Abrams wanted. I’m sure the studio had a few notes of their own, along with the actors — all of whom appeared to be climbing the ladder to stardom no doubt inflating their egos proportionately. And that’s exactly what comes out on the screen — sausage, a bunch of good individual ideas ground together and extruded into a Star Trek casing.

1102. Phil - April 15, 2014

@1099. Yep. Another shoot’em up fan film. Who knew….Sounds too much like a BSG wannabe.

1103. Phil - April 15, 2014

There’s to much splitting of the hairs on which side of the neutral zone Enterprise was sitting on. If Enterprise enters the NZ, it’s a violation of Klingon space. If she stays on the Federation side of the fence, and starts lobbing in long range missiles…it’s still a violation of Klingon space, and they would have been justified in sending out ships (or launching their own missiles) to intercept.

The Klingons are apparently overrated. They spotted the small ship, but missed the really big ones. Apparently their planetary defense grid isn’t operational yet. It also seems really easy to transport to the home world without anyone noticing. So, strap a transwarp transporter to 10,000 torpedoes and just beam them all to the Klingon home world, program them to detonate on rematerialization, and celebrate the victory. Admiral Marcus, you just defeated the Klingon Empire. What are you going to do next? I’m going to Romulan-Land!