Variety says Roberto Orci named director of “Star Trek 3″ | TrekMovie.com
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Variety says Roberto Orci named director of “Star Trek 3″ May 13, 2014

by Brian Drew , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman,ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

BREAKING: Variety is reporting that Roberto Orci, co-screenwriter and producer of the previous two Star Trek films, has been tapped to direct the third film in the rebooted franchise.

When approached by Variety to confirm, Paramount, Skydance Productions, and Orci’s representatives had no comment.

Orci, who will be making his directorial debut, is collaborating with newcomers J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay on the screenplay.  He had been lobbying to land the directing assignment, and needed to convince Paramount and it’s producing partner, Skydance Productions, that he could handle the demands of directing a major Hollywood blockbuster.

No details about the film are known, but the entire cast is expected to return.  J.J. Abrams and Bryan Burke will produce along with Skydance’s David Ellison.

Comments

1. Gdoggy - May 13, 2014

Ugh.

2. Mike Barnett - May 13, 2014

Make it so, Bob!!

3. John from Cincinnati - May 13, 2014

Yayyyy! Congrats boborci!

Make it so

4. Trekkie_Robert_79 - May 13, 2014

I’m hoping JJ, Lindelof, and Kurtzman were what was wrong with Into Darkness, and Orci makes us proud.

5. Diskhanbobulated - May 13, 2014

RIP NuTrek. It’s DEAD, Jim. Give it 10 years until the next reboot, or get it back as a weekly TV series where it should be.

6. Michael Stivic - May 13, 2014

This is great news for Star Trek and its fans!

Almost everything I didn’t like in the previous movies I came to find out were things that J.J. added or altered from the original script, which was better.

Now Bob will be able to do this on his own and he said he wanted to do a sci-fi/exploration movie. I can’t wait!

7. Trekbob - May 13, 2014

Glad to hear it!!! Congrats to the new Captain!!

8. Mike Barnett - May 13, 2014

4. Diskhanbobulated

It’s not dead. Bob’s taking the franchise to the next level and I’m looking forward to it.

9. Chingatchkook - May 13, 2014

I hope he does well. I had high hopes for STID, but kind of felt a little let down….the best Trek movies make me think and contemplate a little; I felt a little numbed at the machine gun pace.

10. justomtav - May 13, 2014

Oh no

11. Jeff O'Connor - May 13, 2014

Congratulations, boborci! I’m thrilled to have this confirmed. Keep these great films going for 4 and 5 as well and I’ll cook you a four-star dinner. Just as soon as I learn to cook.

12. Captain Smirk - May 13, 2014

Are they STILL trying to make us care about characters and situations from a universe that is alternate to the one containing all the beloved characters we actually cherish?

It’s a bit like beating the bottle of glue you got from the earlier horse incarnation.

13. Harry Ballz - May 13, 2014

Orci must think they’ve cranked out a great script if he’s willing to risk his directorial debut with this movie!

How about it, Bob? Is the screenplay as good as your pushing to sit in the “big chair” implies it is?

14. garth - May 13, 2014

make us proud bob. =)

15. Diskhanbobulated - May 13, 2014

6. Mike Barnett

“Aye. An’ if my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a wagon.” Remember Scotty scoffing at the Excelsior’s “transwarp” drive? That’s what “new levels” sounds like, with Capt. Styles directing.

16. Jeyl - May 13, 2014

I’m still waiting for Roberto’s response to my question.

17. VOODOO - May 13, 2014

Best of luck Bob!!!

P.S. It would be cool to have Shatner + Nimoy involved for the 50th Anniversary.

18. Drapera - May 13, 2014

OK Mr. Orci:
I heard you when you did the Mission Log Podcast talk about the “Nu Trek” films, and how some of the story decisions were not things you were happy with and were out of your control…it is all yours now baby! It is now your chance to shine! I, of course, am available for consultation if needed. Good luck and see you in 2016. Cheers.

19. Marja - May 13, 2014

@Bob Orci, wishing you success in your first directing venture.

May it be good, may it be thoughtful, and may it please move a bit slower with more time for our characters to think and talk with one another.

May it have less violence and more exploration.

May it please be a movie with no villain out for revenge.

MAY IT BE GOOD TREK that will live long, and prosper all of us.

Aye, man.

20. JABL - May 13, 2014

I hope this isn’t another Nemesis or Transcendence…

21. TJ Draper - May 13, 2014

**Star Trek **13**. Star Trek 3 was when they Searched for Spock, guys.

22. Mike Barnett - May 13, 2014

16. Marja

Wow! Well said.

23. Razorgeist - May 13, 2014

Mozel Tov! Not my first choice but Im looking forward to what you do with the franchise Bob.

24. Platitude - May 13, 2014

#16 makes great points. I liked ST09 and STID a lot, but it would be nice to see something more Trekey. Bob is a fan so that is a great start. Looking forward to it!

Hopefully more official news on the film will come soon!

25. Np - May 13, 2014

#10: Since your opinion of the films is very much the minority, your sarcasm falls flat. Most people DO care.

26. Mike Barnett - May 13, 2014

Bob Orci:

One request:
If you have money in the budget, please build an engineering set. The brewery kind of takes me out of the movie.

27. Scuba - May 13, 2014

Congrats @boborci. So glad to see it staying in “the family” and to a fellow Trekkie/Trekker!

28. Np - May 13, 2014

As long as the villain is NOT someone out for revenge, as long as no more episodes are regurgitated with classic villains completely botched, and as long as the film is nothing like the one-dimensional utter crapfest that is Transformers, this could work out well.

29. Dee - lvs moonsurface - May 13, 2014

The best of luck to Mr. Orci and Star Trek 3!

30. Commodore Adams - May 13, 2014

@16. Marja

Ditto!

JD did say this will be more of an exploration, classic trek style movie compared to Into Darkness, so I can only keep my fingers crossed.

@20. Mike Barnett

We got a warp core, not a cylinder filled with swirling antimatter but a warp core none the less. I also remember requesting Klingons and an epic monstrosity of a dreadnought ship…and we got it. I doubt they will build an engineering set, but I won’t say never.

I really would like to see more Klingons, I love Klingons, want to see and hear more from them.

31. Quatlo - May 13, 2014

Break a leg, RO.

32. Jonboc - May 13, 2014

Fantastic news! Congrats to Bob Orci! Sure, there’ll be the usual cast of grumblers and doomsday predictors, but regardless of their wants or desires, Bob is still in charge and that isnt going to change. So, I head off to bed tonight, knowing Star Trek remains in capable hands and the months ahead, leading up to the 50th anniversary of TOS, is going to be some kind of fun! Go get ‘em Bob!

33. Gorn Captain - May 13, 2014

Been coming to this site since it started pretty much to follow these new films. I’ve always enjoyed Orci coming here to speak with fans (maybe he’ll show up here now). I have mixed feelings though. First, I know Orci is a fan and cares about Trek. However, him being a first time director is a little worrisome. It has worked well for Trek in the past, and Orci will likely be mostly replicating the Abrams style, but we’ll see how it goes.

My advice to Orci would be to tune everyone out and make the Star Trek movie you want to make

34. Mad Mann - May 13, 2014

In other news, water is wet.

I knew this would happen for over a year now, ever since JJ went to the dark side.

35. Blake Powers - May 13, 2014

Congratulations Bob! Frankly, I hope you aren’t reading this.

36. Sebastian - May 13, 2014

Last nail in ST’s coffin…

37. justomtav - May 13, 2014

@25
Handing a big budget movie project and a tentpole franchise to a director with zero experience is never a good thing.

If he wants to direct that’s fine… start small.

also an amazing cast and the derection of JJ were the only enjoyable aspects of the reboots that otherwise (IMO) took a dump on all pre established trek…

38. Diskhanbobulated - May 13, 2014

Bob seems like a nice guy, but this scene from the ORIGINAL Star Trek III sums things up nicely, Darmok-style: TOS = the Enterprise, NuTrek = the Excelsior. Let’s see how things turn out… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k9Ukm9LaWg#t=434

39. Mr Tribble - May 13, 2014

Congratulations Bob Orci!

Now, please quit re-imagining the old TOS stories and write a good story with a new adventure, not necessarily with non-stop action. As someone said earlier, more dialog. But please make it a new subject, or at the very least, expound on something that might have been obscure in the TOS series.

Thanks and good luck

40. Mr Tribble - May 13, 2014

Oh, and no GD lense flares, please. If you can’t make it dramatic without that crap, seek advice from a more seasoned director that is not JJ Abrams!!
I’ve hated that crappy gimmick from the first.

41. section9 - May 13, 2014

Might be a good idea, @boborci, to take a look at what Manny Coto did for ENTERPRISE in its fourth season. We almost got the Romulan War!

Good writing, good acting, good stories!

All of it depends on the first thing: good writing.

Good luck Bob!

42. Vultan - May 13, 2014

Well, he is a fan. I guess that counts for something. Maybe. And because there were so many cooks on the last couple of movies, it’s hard to tell exactly what his involvement was, though I suspect the conspiracy parts were his.

So anyway, best of luck of with it, Bob, and please… no more conspiracies, evil Starfleet, giant ships/weapons, baddies out for revenge, and ripping off scenes from other movies and episodes. Trek can do so much better.

43. Joshva - May 13, 2014

@boborci. Do us proud. Bring back lots of characters for the anniversary like 7 of 9, Jean Luc, Worf etc. It’d have to involve timelines colliding

Good luck!

44. sisko - May 13, 2014

Congrats!

45. Phil - May 13, 2014

Good luck, Bob. And ignore the armchair scriptwriters who want everything thrown in the story blender, please.

46. NX01 - May 13, 2014

Fine Fine so start directing Bob get to work , we have a 50th anniversary to make!

47. ddesjardins - May 13, 2014

Where were you when Star Trek was killed?

Here, reading about this.

48. SirBroiler - May 13, 2014

Oh boy! I can’t wait to see what Female Kirk and Male Uhura do in the next movie. (Look it up)

Ugh.

49. Mike Barnett - May 13, 2014

45. ddesjardins
“Where were you when Star Trek was killed?”

When the credits rolled during the final Enterprise episode….I was in my living room saying farewell to an old, burnt-out franchise.

50. Elias Javalis - May 13, 2014

Very Glad Bob:) Keep the Warp Core heating and the upper pylons burning!!

51. Adam E - May 13, 2014

Congratulations, Bob!
Can’t wait to read your production updates here on TrekMovie.com! ;-)

52. jkimgant - May 13, 2014

This is amazing news!!!

53. Phil - May 13, 2014

@45. In a theater, watching Picard try to explain to B-4 about Data,. No, wait, it was watching Riker pilot Enterprise with a video game controller in Insurrection.

Apparently there is life after death…

54. WillH85 - May 13, 2014

Yay, the guy who tells fans who don’t worship his movies to eff off is directing. Should be fun. I hope we get Star Trek back on TV before too long with someone who’s familiar with what makes Star Trek Star Trek and isn’t just in it to make big bucks.

55. somethoughts - May 13, 2014

Bob you lucky guy :) congrats

56. somethoughts - May 13, 2014

Time Travel like X men, thanks

57. Steve - May 13, 2014

Congrats, Bob!
Now that you have the conn, could you somehow get some sort of rank identifier on those short sleeve female uniforms? Some pips perhaps?

58. Bill Peters - May 13, 2014

Why are people attacking Bob when they should be Congratulating him? you haven’t seen the Script he is working on and you haven’t seen the final work so stop attacking something like it will be the worst ever before you see it.

59. Phil - May 13, 2014

@45. It’s a toss up between Riker piloting the Enterprise with a video game controller, or Picard explaining Data to B-4….

On TV, Enterprise died about four episodes into the first season, though it got three and a half years of CPR before they pulled the plug.

60. Dr. Cheis - May 13, 2014

boborci, congrats!

61. Mitchell - May 13, 2014

Congrats Bob. It gives me hope and inspires me to see a writer become a director and a Mexicano at that, Sí se puede carnal!

62. PP - May 13, 2014

@54: That is a normal behaviour for Star Trek Fans… They say, that Star Trek is so humanistic and that Star Trek is absout human rights and an optimistic future and blabla – but in discussions you can see that they do not know what they were talking about.

@boborci: congratulations! I really look forward to see your work! :-)

63. Buzz Cagney - May 13, 2014

I’m still surprised nobody with experience seemed to want it.
Its like the first person that said he actually wanted it, got it!
On the positive side it would struggle to be much worse than Into Dorkness.

64. Buzz Cagney - May 13, 2014

#57 At what point is it ok to feel pessimistic? After 2 poor movies or 3?
Just so we know.

65. Cést la vie-Kirk - May 13, 2014

Good idea. I trust him to make a really good Star Trek movie, because he knows Star Trek! He was in contact with the fans, he is a fan himself.

I just hope, they will not only take a known idea and make it new. I want a whole NEW movie, a whole NEW story! And if that is real Trek, I will love it!

66. Cést la vie-Kirk - May 13, 2014

P.S.: And NO WAR!

67. Curious Cadet - May 13, 2014

@43. Phil,
“ignore the armchair scriptwriters who want everything thrown in the story blender, please.”

Yes, he already gave us that with STID. No need to repeat the same mistake twice.

68. seangh - May 13, 2014

Agree or disagree, it’s a good business decision. There will be continuity in this series now. Not a very brave decision, but a very safe one on the part of Paramount execs for what will likely be the last movie in this current Trek incarnation.

69. Ashley - May 13, 2014

Grats Bob! Now just tone down the lens flares even more please. xD

I also want to echo the sentiments about the engineering area. A constructed set would be nice, and with the Enterprise being partially refitted, might be a good opportunity to have it.

70. bgiles73 - May 13, 2014

I think Bob Orci will do a great job. I’m reminded of Spock letting Saavik take the Enterprise out of space dock in Wrath of Khan! ” For everything, there is a first time.” I’m just extremely happy that two of my all time favorite scifi franchises are getting a fresh new wind in their sails. I know it’s inevitable that Disney will break out that whip and Fedora and maybe JJ and Bob Orci can collaborate on that like Lucas and Spielberg. I wish you lots of luck Mr Orci. I’m sure you won’t let us down!

71. JohnR - May 13, 2014

Yes! Good News:-)

72. Cygnus-X1 - May 13, 2014

We still haven’t got an answer to whether this will be the last Bad Robot Trek movie. That’s really the most interesting issue for me.

73. Surak1701 - May 13, 2014

“Go, Bob!” (delivered in TWOK Shatner stylee as ship goes to warp.)

Top advice for you (from an unqualified presumptuous fan.)

The two most obvious big-canvas stories are probably (a) the suggested Federation-Klingon war and (b) a 21st Century time travel a la Voyage Home.

Both could be fun in a lot of respects, but both are arguably too unimaginitive as the primary story. War worked for DS9 (over a lot of eps) but it’s not really the spirit of Trek. Time travel could just result in a rerun of VH.

Few more minor tweaks….

1. Turn down the lights on the bridge. I’m surprised the crew don’t need sunglasses.
2. *Definitely* more Bones/triumvirate.
3. More suspense, ease off the action pedal a little.
4. Push the characters to their limits on a strange new world.

Keep the comedy and the mythology callbacks.

Take her out, Mr Orci :D

74. bluehawk - May 13, 2014

I’m surprised how many of you are so supportive of Orci. He and Kurtzman are what is wrong with Hollywood these days. They are studio pawns given franchises to write for so the studios can make millions at the box office based on brand recognition. They do the bare minimum of storytelling not caring about characters or plot but just a random of bunch of scenes to fill up runtime and make for cool trailers. All the films they’re credited for, their writing has been the worst aspect of said films. Abrams fast paced directing of Into Darkness managed to make it so you didn’t have to think about the writing but when the credits rolled and you really put some thought into it you realize there was no sense to the writing. So you got more pressure on you Mr. Orci. Now you have to direct your hackneyed scripts and I don’t think you are up to the task of distracting the audiences from your bad writing.

75. Son of Jello - May 14, 2014

Getting yourself Called a Director does not make you one. I think giving R.O. the job is aimless (being the last guy left in the room after everyone else has left is not the way to get allocate responsibility) If we were being honest we would all be on board with the
“Who wants to be a celebrity and direct the next ST movie”.
Just imagine a studio/stadium full of ST fans all vying for the right to direct the next ST. Only one can win but you cant break any ST law to do it. ex IDIC, Prime directive etc. There is no need to be a writer or director as ST people know anyone can do this job with disastrous results.(pick your own example). And it should be TV miniseries and not movies.

The Rules
.Rule one Kirk is dead he is not coming back
.Rule two Spock is dead he is not coming back
.No Klingons
.No Romulans
.No Borg etc…….
.No time travel
.No blowing up planets because you lack ideas. (remember your a custodian you don’t own the franchise)
.No people taking their clothes of and wearing underwear. (If you have to strip someone semi naked because you cant give them a few lines to make them someone we want to be interested in and not just to look at. You can get the F. out of the writing room there is to work for you here)
.No Blowing up, attacking, sabotage or refitting the enterprise. (were going with the STTMP Enterprise so suck it up princess) you have flexibility in redesigning the interior but only using rejected designs from the 60,70,80, (It has to look like a star ship that works and not something you walk past while in a shopping mall on your way to see a doctor about tribble rash down below)
.No new aliens or fly by night bad guys. Actually no bad guys at all.
.No original cast whatsoever No excusses (exceptions may be made for Alfred Bester)
.No Nazies, Romans, Cowboys, Omipitant beings, Lizards, or nepotism
.No refrences from other movies R2D2 (pork barreling) is not ST get him and his cohorts the F out of.

That should get you started don,t forget Lost was pointless nothingness so you well on you way to being a director of ST the miniseries. I hope I have removed all the plots that get rolled out when a new ST movie is made.

What happened to the mormon? Did he fall in his hat looking for the magic voice.

76. Visitor1982 - May 14, 2014

I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I really liked Star Trek 2009, but Into Darkness was sloppy all around.

Bring back Star Trek to TV. That’s where it really belongs.

77. Stephen Whelan - May 14, 2014

God not sure about this but will hope for the best. Please God do something original.
For the people moaning about him being a first time directer remember JJ was a first time director when he did Mission Impossible 3 and that was great

78. DJT - May 14, 2014

Let’s see what the future brings. Ahead full.

79. James - May 14, 2014

I think this is good news, I liked both of the new movies although if Mr Orci skim reads through these posts – I’d like to proffer up my own insignificant thought.

Please don’t feel the need to have a story about revenge. It’s been overdone in recent Trek films.

Good luck Bob.

80. Son of Jello - May 14, 2014

69. Hi Stephen You need to go back and look at both JJ Abrams and Robert Orci’s background in the industry. They are two very different histories Abrams didn’t go into directing cold and he did not do it without before working with people who knew what they are doing.

Ex William Shatner and Jonathen Frakes William Shatner got a directing gig because Leonard Nimoy had directed a star trek movie and he is William Shatner and we got ST5 and thats it. Johnathan Frakes had been building his experience and learning the role of a director for many years before he took on a movie the result First Contact good movie (thunderbirds was crap but you get used to that). So the comparison being J.F. is JJ and Robert Orci is William Shatner with a budjet of over 100mil and hopefully no desire to create rock monsters, inventing long lost relatives, singalongs and fighting cat women while scotty and uhura hint at a relationship (but then again)

The point being one knows what they are doing and the other doesn’t and ST has to survive them both again and they both get paid. And we get to pay to watch it

81. Stephan - May 14, 2014

Congratulations Bob! I wish you all the best in this new experience. I am curiuos about your vision of trek. And don’t let it get to you if there are haters and moaners because they are everywhere. ;)

Live long and prosper!

82. Vultan - May 14, 2014

Leonard Nimoy, William Shatner, Jonathan Frakes, and David Carson all directed TV episodes before they directed movies. Robert Wise, Nick Meyer, Stuart Baird, and JJ Abrams had previous movies. Bob Orci is the first true first-time director of the film series.

No pressure! :-D

83. rtrj - May 14, 2014

…and so it begins. Bob don’t let the destroyers get you down.
This can, and I think will, be the best Trek yet…

84. TOM DUMAS - May 14, 2014

CONGRATS DUDE!!!! I’M NOT EVEN WORRIED NOR CONCERNED. YOU ARE THE RIGHT MAN FOR THIS JOB!!! YOU KNOW TREK THROUGH AND THROUGH, AND I ALSO FELT YOU APPRECIATED THE FRANCHISE MORE SO THAN YOUR PARTNERS. DARE I SAY IT, “ITS ALL LOGICAL!!!!” BEST WISHES AND LUCK MY FRIEND!!!!! BRING ME ANOTHER SOLID ADVENTURE!!

85. Chris Roberts - May 14, 2014

@Bob Orci

Can’t think of a better fan for the job.

Make sure history never forgets the name… Enterprise.

:)

86. Jay Ley (UK Trekkie) - May 14, 2014

Bob.

This is a fantastic opportunity to repair the damage…

Its the 50th anniversary, so let’s do what X-men is currently doing, and what Dr Who has done so well over the last 50 years and have all the Captains back.

Its simple… In a nutshell Picard with Shatner in toe come through an anamoly to collect Spock Prime. For whatever reason there is some temporal sh*t going down in the Prime timeline (or some foe) and they need Prime Spock back… They convince him to reset the timeline meaning that what we have seen over the last 2 films would never have happened and somehow all the Captains are involved.

You could have Admiral Archer taking over Pike’s role as advisor to Kirk. Picard and Shat as the two coming to collect Kirk with Janeway and Sisko helping to defeat the foe (it could be the Borg?)

THAT WOULD BE FRICKIN AWESOME MAN!!!

87. Oscar - May 14, 2014

Very, very shortsighted decision, PARAMOUNT.
Why?
1. He has not experience.
2. He is a blacklisted guy. A huge number of trek fans despise him.
3. Blacklisted by critics. The vast majority think is a mediocre writer. They won’t give him any chance.
4. General moviegoers will say: Roberto Who?
5. His schedule is very busy.
6. If the director and 2 of 3 writers are no experiencing people, rookies,,the message is:

« this film is a small project, a meaningless thing»

7. He knows he is not the best choice to helm a star trek film, but he wants to shoot it because of his arrogancy He wants to be the Supreme Master .
8. A man who insulted the fans (« fu…you, shi..fans») should not be the director of this film)

Out consideration for the insulted star trek fans. Fans pay tickets.

9. If the next film is a disaster, no more star trek films, and ORCI, ORCI AND ORCI formula is death by suicide.

10. He do not deserves the nomination. He will shoot ST2016 because of a AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN OF LOBBYING.
In short, Politics, no talent.

88. Cervantes - May 14, 2014

So that’s that then. Congratulation to you Bob, as you must be delighted to get this opportunity.

As ever, the commenters here are a mixed bag of expectations, some cheerleaders, some naysayers.

While I admit I’ve mainly been in the latter camp over many aspects of this big screen re-imagining of TOS, I’m gonna *try* and bite my tongue during the production of this next instalment, until I see what you come up with.

I’m hoping that your third outing will prove to be the best ‘Nu’-adventure yet in this ‘alternate timeline’.

But as I like the concept that our actual universe is possibly just one in a far bigger, expanding ‘multi-verse’ of many…then it’s no big deal if I’m disappointed with this next movie too, as I can just continue to ‘imagine’ that this new rebooted movie ‘timeline’ has merely ‘split off’ from a totally different, alternate, movie universe to the the original TOS show to begin with…and that the ‘Enterprise’, ‘Next Generation’, and ‘Voyager’ shows etc, are also just part of that alternate Trek universe (along with the alternate ‘Kirk’ and events seen in the ‘Generations’ movie onwards, too!)

That way, my ‘unofficial’ Star Trek ‘canon’ will remain as ending at with the ‘Undiscovered Country’ movie (where the actual ‘prime’ Kirk survived onscreen)…and I can look on the rest as just so much ‘Expanded Universe’-type fan fiction to that! :)

But I hope your next instalment proves to be a really good ‘un for me overall, as I’ll then incorporate the ‘Nu’-trilogy it into my specific TOS-related ‘canon’ mentioned above…while *still* ‘imagining’ that the other shows and ‘Generations’ movie onwards are set in a seperate Trek universe to begin with.

You see, the thing that I’ve now realised is this – yes, this ‘Nu’-crew’s totally new traits and relationships have actually arisen from a new set of circumstances set in motion by ‘Nero’s ‘time-travelling’ intervention…but it can *also* be ‘imagined’ as effectively totally ‘scrubbing out’ what the ‘official’ events of the ‘prime’ timeline *would* have continued with if he hadn’t – the likes of the all eventual events and characters seen in all the ‘Next Generation’ shows and movies, for instance! Which suits me. So if I decide to embrace the ‘Nu’-movies, I won’t look on this rebooted ‘timeline’ as being a new kind of *prime* timeline which leads up to those shows either! Neither will I look on it as having been preceded by the ‘Enterprise’ show, although there might not technically even been a ‘past’ to this new timeline once ‘Nero’ created it…

Of course, the one I feel sorry for is elder ‘prime’ Spock…who remains a man stuck ‘out of his time’…but who knows?, perhaps he can return to his previous point in some way to undo ‘Nero’s intervention in the first place, by the end of this next instalment! I mean, what was the point unless he felt he could possibly ‘sort things out’ somehow?…

Sorry if I’ve bent any minds with all this nonsense…I look forward to the next movie! :)

89. Adama - May 14, 2014

@BobOrci

Congratulations!!! I can not vouch for you directing abilities (but I tend to think that you are going to surprise us in a very positivie way), but I cannot think of a better person to be responsible for the direction Star Trek goes from now on.
Make us proud!

Live Long And Prosper!

90. Mark Lynch - May 14, 2014

Bob Orci is a big fan and seems to know his stuff. I just hope that translates onto the screen now that he is directing.

I can only hope.

91. Spock's Bangs - May 14, 2014

Great to hear. Now if the fans with sour grapes because Frakes wasn’t chosen, to direct more adventures of Picard, will just go away for two years so I can anticipate the movie in peace!! Lol

FACT!

92. Exverlobter - May 14, 2014

Good luck, Bob. And Please keep the lens-flares. I like it. Dont listen to the haters.

93. Schultz - May 14, 2014

Haters will hate. I say let’s give him a chance. Jonathan Frakes was a big budget movie directing newcomer too, and his First Contact was a rather fine movie… plot holes galore, but still good Star Trek entertainment.

@boborci: Never forget, always be nice to the actors, take your time with them, listen to what they have to say, always commend them for their performances, even if you think a take wasn’t good. Worked miracles for me on TV.

94. Laughable - May 14, 2014

This is gonna be BAD!

95. Spock - May 14, 2014

Bob will do the job fine. I am very confident that we will get both a thrill-ride and a philosphically deep exploration story that will get to hour hearts and show ones and for all that the new trek is the better one. It might even go ironically on some of the last movies flaws with some deeper consiquences for the characters.

But most importantly. The Enterprise might go where no man has gone before as it should have been with into darkness already.

96. Mad Mann - May 14, 2014

Hey Bob, notice how Zach Snyder showed a pic of Batman and the Batmobile yesterday? And how Peter Jackson has those video blogs during production of his movies? And how Bryan Singer tweeted all those X-men pics? Please don’t be all “JJ-mystery-box” on us fans but rather show us some stuff! It hypes the movie, gets the fans excited, and brings positivity to a movie! Secrecy breeds the opposite: doubt and negativity.

Tell us who the big bad is, including casting, and tease some pre-production art!

Here’s hoping…

97. Frost - May 14, 2014

I have more faith in him than Lindelof and Abrams. I mean, guys, Bob Orci is actually a STAR TREK fan. The others were not. At best they attempted, or pretended to be. This could be the best one.

98. trekman_dave - May 14, 2014

Congratulations I for one am happy thay Star Trek is being made. I also don’t think throwing mud around will help the perception of its fans.

Well done

99. Cervantes - May 14, 2014

@ 85 Mad Mann – good points! While I guess there won’t be any kind of major re-design/refit of the ‘Nu’-Enterprise’s exterior, I’d sure like to see a preview of any ‘re-fit’ of the ‘Engineering Section’, if there is one…

And no misleading outright lies this time, like with the whole ‘Khan’ thing last time! :)

100. Carl - May 14, 2014

Oh, this should be good. And by ‘good’ I mean really, really bad.

101. star trackie - May 14, 2014

Music to my ears! absolutely loved the last two, I expect the third to be no different! And sure, keep the story under wraps, I don’t like to pickup a book and read the last chapter, but yeah, a tease here and there is ok. Bob Orci, you’ll know better than anyone, what can be released that wont compromise the story. Give us a glimpse of a new prop or new uniform or Shuttlecraft. That sort of thing is fun without blowing the whole surprise of the twist and turns in a film. Trek is in good hands. (Sorry Oscar! lol)

102. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

So here we are. Here we have it. Wanting to be as positive as I can with this post I’ll say – Good luck Bob! I suspect you will satisfy the studio’s expectations. I hope I’ll be at least as satisfied with your movie as I was with JJ’s ST’09.

An outspoken and avowed Trek fan in the director’s chair. Interesting.

103. Oscar - May 14, 2014

HORSE OF TROY THEORY.

A bunch of Orci fans , I said, Orci fans, it will not be enough to make a good film.
STAR TREK: SG ORCI is a formula for a disaster. As said previously,

1. A man whose arrogance is bigger than his talent is never a good business choice.

2. A star trek film directed by a John Doe director is not a good business choice.

3. A man who insulted critics and fans because they did not say «you are the best, pal, STID is the new CITIZEN KANE», because they are not a bunch of « yes sir» guys…is not a good business choice.

SO, if ST: SG ORCI is not a good business choice, why? You know the answer.«an AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN of lobbying»
Who is the director of this AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN of lobbying? JJ ABRAMS? I do not know it, but I think so. He is Bad Robot productions.

A. JJ Abrams does NOT like ST. He is now the director of the next SW film
B. SW is (in business) the main rival of ST.
C. SW is Disney. Disney crushes its rivals (at least, they try)
D. An Orci project is a low leves project for ST. A Abrams project is a high level Project for SW.
E. SW ABRAMS will overshadow ST ORCI.
F. If ST Orci is a fail, good for Disney. SW becomes the only sci fi super franchise. For decades.
JJ Abrams is a ST producer, and a SW producer. But his heart is in SW
Orci to direct ST, the winner is DISNEY

Horse of Troy theory

104. Mike Stivic - May 14, 2014

What if Bob makes a really great Star Trek movie that doesn’t necessarily include all the dumb, pointless action and mind-numbing speed. And fans love it, and it brings in new fans.

But doesn’t bring in the masses. And the studio is disappointed.

Will they pull the plug or just decrease the budget for Star Trek 4/14?

Does Star Trek HAVE to be as big as ’09 and Into Darkness or can Orci bring us back to movies allowed to be more for the fans, that will generate a solid box office, but not be tent-poles?

105. Bart - May 14, 2014

@boborci

Congratulations. You’re living out my fantasy; bringing your fanboy vision of Trek to life on the page and behind the lens. As the one big Trekie on the the BR team, I have faith in you.

Now, the obligatory (unsolicited) advice from a die-hard:

1. Please tell a great and exciting story without throwing in some kind of uber-villian, especially one bent on revenge. As fan you know that great Star Trek doesn’t need a baddie, it never did. I want a thought-provoking story, putting our heroes in life and death struggles, with decisions to make that could determine the fate of an entire planet or race. Maybe an environmental or natural disaster. (recently read the Trek novel “Mere Anarchy”…..loved it)

2. (plagerizing another poster here) “PLEASE LOVE THE ENTERPRISE IN EVERY SCENE” Before you start shooting, please re-watch TMP. Robert Wise knew how to film that great lady, Enterprise. Please give us some gorgeous shots of her soaring through the stars. JJ never gave us that in two movies. Kirk once said the Enterprise was “a beautiful woman and we love her.” Please show us how beautiful she is.

3. Love the Kirk/Spock/McCoy moments you wrote into the last film. Please give us more of them.

You have my full support. May the wind be at your back….

106. JohnD - May 14, 2014

This guy boborci cannot write so why do we think he can direct?

107. Exverlobter - May 14, 2014

In contrast to many here i like Action-Trek. However i dont like Action-Trek with sloppy scripts. And 2009 and STID had very, very sloppy scripts.
Id love Trek 2016 to be like a James Cameron film. Very big, but with a solid script. It should be possible that those two things can be combined.
Make it work this time Bob.

108. Oscar - May 14, 2014

Breaking news

the most important comic book movie site in the web

Comicbookmovie.com

says

«STAR TREK INTO GLOOMINESS: Roberto Orci will direct ST sequel»

Its fans ««hahahaha»

Oh, yes the truht is out there.

ST : SG Orci . Day one.

109. Christopher Doohan - May 14, 2014

I couldn’t be more excited about this. He IS the perfect choice for ST3. I think he will be a fantastic Director.

A BIG congrats to a great man!!

110. The Keeper - May 14, 2014

There’s really nothing more to say. I am extremely disappointed first by the fact the Orci was still attached to the writing team and second by Orci actually going to direct the mess he writes.

Farewell to the Star Trek franchise as it once was.

The mindless newbie fans have won.

111. MagicDan - May 14, 2014

Congrats Bob! Very excited for you! You can’t make every Trek fan happy of course, but who cares? You get to do the next Star Trek!

I really don’t think he’s going to let us down. All my hopes Bob!

112. Oscar - May 14, 2014

sorry, but I must ask Orci’s followers:

Would Disney choose an Orci guy to direct STAR WARS?

I think you do know the answer. In fact, a Roberto Orci guy is not the next SW director.

Maybe you think ST deserves worse. A rookie team and low profil project

What a weird trek fans are you.

113. Ralph Pinheiro - May 14, 2014

Mr. Orci. Congratulations on Star Trek new direction. TrekBrasilis (Brazil) wishes you luck in this mission. We can´t wait.

114. Bart - May 14, 2014

97:

I’ve been a fan of Trek since I was five years old, in 1975. I’ve loved every incarnation of the series (some more than others), have enjoyed all the movies (except for Nemesis), I’ve read the novels, I watch the web series, I’ve listened to the audio dramas. I know exactly what Gene’s vision is, I know why Trek is much more special that Star Wars and I know what makes great Trek. I get it all, dude.

And you know what…. I can still enjoy the BR movies for what they are. Summer blockbuster reboots of a franchise, that except for Pocketbooks and fan-made dramas, was in a long coma. The elements of the Trek I love are in there. Is it perfect? No, but then none of the screen voyages have been perfect. They’re made for a mass audience. It’s still entertaining story telling with the characters I love and recognized immediately. Every one of the actors have nailed their roles. I’d rather have this than nothing. And these movies have brought people into Trek that would never have been interested before. If even 25% of the people that loved the movies go back now and explore the history, we’re in better shape than we were before.

Bottom line, don’t classify everyone that enjoys BR Trek as a “mindless newbie fan”, because you’re dead wrong on that.

115. Commodore Adams - May 14, 2014

Congrats Robbert! Surely the best of times.

For a Star Trek fan to be directing a movie being released for its 50th anniversary must be a joy. You lucky man.

I wish you the best and success with this movie. Excelsior!

116. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

Oscar, my fellow TMP fan, I know you’re disappointed but I think you need to let it go and move on. The decision has been made.

Why not give Orci the benefit of the doubt? Repeating your same bullet points everyday on this site for the next 2+ years isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. Why not wait and see what he produces? If he fails then you can come on this site and say “I told you so.”

Relax….deep breaths…..

117. Oscar - May 14, 2014

101. BART.
Nemesis is better than Nutrek films. At least it has not a stack of plot holes and idiocies than stretches from here to Tellar. And better than Insurrection or Generations, «Nemesis is the worst trek ever», it was the slogan of the antiBerman aggresive campaigners. A common place antiBerman.
Berman haters, yesterday.
Today, Orci’ «yes sir» people.

And sorry, stop the revisionism. NU Trek characters are cartoonish caricature s of the original characters. And nu trek a cartoonish caricature of the original TOS.
This was, is and will be the Orci Trek. A caricature of the original TOS.

Orci will direct ST 2016 because

A. An AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN of lobbying.
B. a true director and a couple of real, news plotters would be a EXPENSIVE thing.
ST: SG Orci will be a cheap project , and PARAMOUNT wants a cheap project to finish the Abramsverse pseudo saga.

118. Commodore Adams - May 14, 2014

…..If only we could only convince Paramount to release all the movies in individual beautiful movie poster art cover steelbooks PROPERLY REMASTERED (camera negative style) for its 50th anniversary rather than box set after bloody box set with shitty HD quality transfers *cough Enterprise cough* and terrible cover art. In the Motion Picture, the Enterprise pulling out of space dock scene has a ton of black spots, especially on the underside of the dish, those are either on the camera lens or on the film negative which has to be cleaned or digitally removed. Paramount should give the 10 movies what they deserve not simply redress the box with the same footage. Give all the movies directors cuts, special editions, and extended scenes, ADD STUFF, DONT TAKE STUFF AWAY. I hate that they cut out the two Colonel Wes scenes in The Undiscovered Country.

Go back and look at all the versions of The Motion Picture box art. From the massive Laser Disc, Selecta Vision, Beta Max, VHS, DVD, they all had movie poster cover art, why the change. My blu ray box sets have photos of individual cast members on the covers, its shit.

Why can’t we have these.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5456/7095739551_63370de9d0_z.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/owainwilson/7099249155/in/photostream/

Why instead do we have this

http://images3.static-bluray.com/movies/covers/19793_large.jpg

and this

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dLGI8pxsGwQ/T9QcgZutaNI/AAAAAAAAMYg/MOJLnkfIYcs/s1600/Star_Trek_Next_Generation_box_set_slims.jpg

I hate that they just slap faces on the covers, I HATE IT!

119. Commodore Adams - May 14, 2014

@101. Bart – May 14, 2014

Could not have said it better myself. Im 31, been a fan since I was 4 years old, I’m not a newbie by any means and I love the new movies…You hear that Oscar, LOVE THE NEW MOVIES.

120. Pete S - May 14, 2014

I love this site and rarely post but today I say congratulations Bob. You know Star Trek back to front and you genuinely care about it.

People have their opinions about the franchise and rightly so but I believe you are the right person for the job and a tough job it will be.

Remember the history, the anniversary, the message and overall remember the fun?

121. Phil - May 14, 2014

Oscar. Just let it go, man. Not only is your Bad Robot bitterness consuming you, you are now spinning bats**t crazy conspiracy theories that this is all some massive plot on Disney’s part to shut down a competitor for good? There’s one massive flaw in your theory, that being that James Cameron wants his Avatar to be the dominate sci-fi/fantasy franchise in Hollywood. You’re looking at the wrong enemy, buddy.

You continue to ignore the handwriting on the wall, that BR’s Trek is the model moving forward. A 150MM budget isn’t cheap, Orci is an advocate, and to not put to fine a point on it, no one stepped up with an alternative, It is what it is at this point, and I would hope that Bob is paying attention to some of the more constructive criticisms at this point. You are free to beat the drum that what Trek needs is more Nemesis, but outside of you and three or four others, there isn’t much support for that.

122. star trackie - May 14, 2014

104 Oscar has sour grapes??

naaahhh, no way. Not Oscar the optimist! lol

123. Ensign Ricky - May 14, 2014

Scottys uniform is red.
Spocks uniform is blue.
You say Star Trek is dead?
I think so too.

124. dscott - May 14, 2014

Go Bob! I have faith in ya, screw the haters!

125. Commodore Adams - May 14, 2014

@ 104. Oscar

You and those like you are the problem. Granted we always want yin and yang but you’re so desperately trying to what, convince people of something? Those of us long time, hard core trekkies and trekkers that love the movie will not have our minds change by someone as insignificant as you. AntiBerman lol well your AntiOrci, no different that the Berman haters. Im 30, young when Star Trek TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT came out, I never got caught up in the “hatters” minutia, I loved them for what they are and watched them because I love them. As I said before even when I pop in TFF or NEM (my least fav movies) I have a smile on my face? Why, because I love Star Trek….ALL OF IT! Hell, TMP is still one of my fav Trek movies, cuz I love that 70’s retro sci fi. I love 2009, I love Into Darkness, why? 101. Bart said it best “The elements of the Trek I love are in there. Is it perfect? No, but then none of the screen voyages have been perfect.” And he is 100% correct. That comment hits the nail on the head, and don’t twist it, it does not mean we hate the explorational, classic trek formula that made it thrive for decades. The movies have NEVER been perfect, not even TWOK. But the elements of Star Trek that I love are there and the list is endless. Have you not heard of the saying ‘look for the good in something.’

The bottom line is that these movies (by whatever definition) are a success, which means Star Trek lives, lives on to one day have a chance at a new TV series utilizing the original formula that you love so much.

The only aspect of these movies and all of these debates you have to concern yourself with, is that YOU do not like them and that’s your problem. Don’t concern yourself with those of us CORE FANS that do like it.

126. LogicalLeopard - May 14, 2014

104. Oscar – May 14, 2014
101. BART.
Nemesis is better than Nutrek films. At least it has not a stack of plot holes and idiocies than stretches from here to Tellar.

*********************

Yeah, cause it’s totally believable that one of the most paranoid, jackbooted, security minded races in the universe, with one of the best secret police forces in the Beta Quadrant would fail to check persons coming into the Senate Chambers for devices that contain deadly radiation, like thalaron radiation. Oh, and they’d fail to notice that a Picard clone is rallying their subservient worker race, AND BUILDING A HUGE HONKING DEADLY STARSHIP DRIPPING WITH THALARON RADIATION ON THEIR DOORSTEP. *LOL* I mean, how exactly do you build a ginormous starship ON REMUS that’s bigger than a WARBIRD without ANYONE noticing? And when he “takes over” the Empire….wouldn’t every man, woman, and child have suppressed this coup? Romulans don’t seem the type to let a Human and a bunch of Remans take over their government. The capital city would have been obliterated from orbit by every available Warbird in the area if it came to that. But it wouldn’t because the police forces would probably be enough to repel an invasion. If it wasn’t, the Klingon Empire would have conquered them ages ago.

127. LogicalLeopard - May 14, 2014

104. Oscar – May 14, 2014

And sorry, stop the revisionism. NU Trek characters are cartoonish caricature s of the original characters. And nu trek a cartoonish caricature of the original TOS.
This was, is and will be the Orci Trek. A caricature of the original TOS.

*********************************

You can’t really compare Nu Trek characters to TOS characters, much more than you can compare Mirror Universe characters to TOS characters. Different timeline, different lives, different results. They will all be similar in some degree, if you believe in nature vs nurture, but you’ve outlined the main problem I think people have with Nu-Trek. They’re expecting it to be like TOS. It wont. That ship has sailed. You wont get another TOS movie, show, or anything, unless it’s animated. Three seasons, seven movies, an animated television show, and books. That’s TOS. Nu trek is nu trek. If you don’t like it, that’s very well and good. But don’t demand that it become more like TOS, because it’s not going to be. It’s like being upset that Gotham isn’t like the 60’s Batman TV show.

128. LogicalLeopard - May 14, 2014

Oh, and congrats to Bob!

Two words: Lens Flares.

I love them!

129. Bart - May 14, 2014

With Nemesis I couldn’t get past them completely ignoring the fact that Lore ever existed. It absolutely ruined the movie for me.

And I still have a soft spot for Insurrection. Maybe that’s because it was a Frakes’ movie, and he’s such an awesome guy, I’m going to like anything he does.

130. New Horizon - May 14, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFGfWrJR5Ck

In all seriousness though, congrats and all the best. It won’t be an easy task.

131. Khan 2.0 - May 14, 2014

Qapla’ Bob

132. NuTrekRocks - May 14, 2014

Congrats Bob Orci!!! Make Star Trek 13 our Skyfall.

133. smegger56 - May 14, 2014

If you can do as good a job as the 09 film but better, then brilliant. For me, you and your writing team need to give us a good story and screenplay for the third after ITD. I want to see the big E kick ass and I want to see the crew in actual danger.

Also, no cheap emotional pull like with kirks ‘death’. Have the balls to do something daring. Be dramatic. Go full on ‘vulcan destroyed’ kind of ‘OH SHIT’ for us. Don’t be safe.

Do it for us Bob :)

134. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - May 14, 2014

Congrats Bob! Please consider the deleted scene where Kirk Prime was in a holo recording to Spock Prime i cried when i read that scene!

135. shamelord - May 14, 2014

Remember to go where no one has gone before, Mr. Orci.
“Strange new worlds, new life, new civilizations”.

Best of luck!

136. Oscar - May 14, 2014

106.
You are right. I said: if this Orci guy will direct , the 25th anniversary film I’m done with ST films.
So, I’m done. If a guy insult me, he can not expect neither my love nor my money.
I’m sure a huge number of trek fans understand it. And they say, « I’m done, too.»

ST: SG ORCI will be an epic fail, because is a formula with rotten ingredients.

And the only guilty will be Roberto Orci, whose arrogance is bigger than his talent.

I can wait this foreseeble crash. I’m not pesimist, maybe you are rosewater dreamers, wishful thinking lovers…your dissapointment will be bigger than mine.

And yes, maybe my horse of troy theory is a mad thing. But You know, in a world where a guy is executive of a company A and, at the same time, executive of A’ main rival company…
You are a naif, if you do not think something is rotten in Danemark.

137. M - May 14, 2014

Maybe it’ll turn out he’s an awesome director. We can only hope.

138. Disinvited - May 14, 2014

“And huge congrats to my good friend Bob Orci on getting the ST3 gig. He has always been the most clued up of all of us on the OS. V excited.”

— Simon Pegg (@simonpegg) May 14, 2014

https://twitter.com/simonpegg/statuses/466486212908548096

139. Hugh Hoyland - May 14, 2014

I had read a few days ago that this was a done deal, but either way congrates Bob!!! :)

A few questions, I asked this before so maybe this time Bob will see and respond. What sort of visual style are you aiming for with this movie? More like how JJ Abrams does his? Or perhapes some of the other directors you’ve worked with. Or can we expect your own style?

Most if not all directors “borrow” from others so I was just curious Bob.

140. Trekboi - May 14, 2014

I don’t see this going well
Yes, it could be the others who were responsible for Into Darknesses flaws but the man has never directed a film before, we need an experienced name director for quality & promotion
I mean “Directed by Bob Orci” how are they going to sell that?

141. Disinvited - May 14, 2014

#121. Oscar – May 14, 2014

“And yes, maybe my horse of troy theory is a mad thing. But You know, in a world where a guy is executive of a company A and, at the same time, executive of A’ main rival company…
You are a naif, if you do not think something is rotten in Danemark.” — Oscar

And Nicholas Meyer only got the leg up to the director’s chair of his first Trek movie because his childhood friend was doing the hiring at Paramount at the time.

Pardon me, if in that, you seem to be a bit of a naif yourself, in regards to how things go in Hollywood.

Don’t know about Denmark but something is definitely rotten in Disneyland when nuParamount sells them their rights to Iron Man AND Indiana Jones from two completely different franchises. It is enough to make one wonder what they’d be willing to sell next?

142. Michael Hall - May 14, 2014

Having tangled with Roberto Orci in various threads on this site, I can only wish him godspeed and smooth sailing with this project. I’m not enthused by its prospects, but would sincerely love to be proven wrong.

143. The Keeper - May 14, 2014

Possible titles for the next and last Star Trek film ever:

Star Trekking Rewind
Star Trek To Boldly Go Where We’ve Been Before
Star Trekking To the Same Old Story.
Star Trekker Lies
Star Trek Smoke and Mirrors ( and Lens Flares)
Star Trek You Know the Story
Star Trek Redundancy
Star Trek For 4 Year Olds
Star Trek Seeking a Story
Star Trek Left Behind
Star Trek Lubes You Up and Bends You Over
Star Trek Forgetta About it

144. Captain Hackett - May 14, 2014

I wish you the best of luck, Bob!

I am looking forward to watching your movie as soon as it is released. :)

145. EJD1984 - May 14, 2014

Hopefully he’ll be able to finally give the Nu-Enterprise a proper engineering set.

146. Bill Peters - May 14, 2014

Good Greif, on Oscar and Keeper, you guys haven’t seen what Bob has Written or is making out of this Trek, you always seem to be on the attack, and Oscar now has wild Conspiracy Theories about why Bob was Chosen, Yet he gets a Vote of Confadance from Simon Pegg and Christopher Doohan, If Doohan is for him…I really have a hard time being aganist him sence Doohan has been Involved sence TMP when his Father was in it.

Oscar and Keeper, you both might want to see what Orci makes before acting like this is some Disaster….

147. LordCheeseCakeBreath - May 14, 2014

This is great news! Let’s get into some real space exploration!

148. Disinvited - May 14, 2014

# 124. Trekboi – May 14, 2014

” I mean “Directed by Bob Orci” how are they going to sell that?” — Trekboi

By not, you don’t HAVE to sell the director side to promote a film. In the old days, they’d just cast some name actor like Harrison Ford and sell THAT.

Of course, in the interim, either SLEEPY HOLLOW or HAWAII 5-O could become a ratings warhorse and record Emmy winner in which you’d market it as “From the man who brought you SLEEPY HOLLOW…Roberto Orci presents:”

149. SpockOut - May 14, 2014

Congrats Mr. Orci.

I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

I hope to see us come to the brink with the Klingons and have the Organians intervene. I’m sure many Trekkers would like to see things go in an entirely new direction, but I always loved that story and with today’s CGI and your creativity it would be awesome on the big screen. Add some gore and some alien tata’s for a PG-13 rating :)

SpockOut

150. rfk - May 14, 2014

Seems the combo of STID, ST2016 writing team, and level of involvement for BR have combined to cause credible directors pass.

Now I’m really excited about Cars 3 in 2016 (for the kids).

That said, fanboys will rejoice because they lack the sophistication to know any better.

Oh well.

151. GARY NEUMANN - May 14, 2014

ROBERTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

BUEN TRABAJO! :)

152. Tom - May 14, 2014

Bob
Agree with #134. Consider your deleted Shatner scene, sprinkled in with something where they could be together on screen.
Cant wait to see what you have planned but I really hope the script is strong and that is the reason why you wanted to direct it so badly.
Always appreciate the fact you come by and listen whether you take suggestions or not and regardless of whatever battles have ensued. The site is stronger with you than without you.

We need a great movie for so many reasons (50th anniversary, Long term success of Trek, Your Directorial future!!)

153. Gary - May 14, 2014

Star Trek
1966-2002
R.I.P.

154. Check the Circuit - May 14, 2014

Congratulations Bob! Best of luck as you take the center seat. Can’t wait to see what’s in store for us!

And don’t let the Haters get to you down.

155. Bill Peters - May 14, 2014

Bob Orci Set course for 2016 Maximum Warp and Make it So :) I have Faith you will give us an Awesome Trek.

156. thx1138 - May 14, 2014

Great news, now I am excited for the next film!

157. Magic_Al - May 14, 2014

Numbering rant again: the industry always counts untitled James Bond films from Dr. No (so the next one is Bond 24) even though post-Casino Royale Bond acknowledges no prior continuity (unless the Aston Martin is its Spock Prime). WHY DON’T THEY CALL IT STAR TREK 13????

158. Moe - May 14, 2014

Good luck, Bob Orci.

159. Nemesis4909 - May 14, 2014

I never doubted this would happen and sufficed to say I’m not happy about it.

A guy who’s made been partly (or largely) responsible for making a mess of Star Trek and Spider-Man is now allowed to direct Star Trek despite the fact that he’s never directed anything. What sense does this make?

Here’s my prediction – The 50th anniversary of Star Trek will be “celebrated” by a disappointing, thoughtless mess with far too many subplots that go nowhere and the needless cramming in of a name recognised villian in the name of fan service. Might I suggest The Borg Bob? They could still be ruined a bit more I think. How about The Borg and Khan in some universe destroying plot because that’s what Star Trek is now isn’t it? A summer action movie with little in the way of heart or intelligence and has long since abandoned the notion of telling something resembling a good story.

Rant over, I hope he proves me wrong but I have to say, not impressed with the track record so far.

160. Scott McC - May 14, 2014

Bob

Many congratulations. Your knowledge and love of TOS has never been in any doubt and I think you will make a great Star Trek.

Great to see the next film moving forward.

161. richard - May 14, 2014

congrats now make the 50th big bold an EPIC make it so!

162. Red Dead Ryan - May 14, 2014

Good for you, yo!

And don’t listen to idiots like Oscar the Grouch. Him and his ilk know they’re outnumbered by your supporters.

These haters and Talifans have nothing better to do than to try and tear you down and sabotage your efforts on the next movie. These extremists have been attempting to do that since before the first movie came out in 2009.

163. Strider - May 14, 2014

*sigh* Can we put this crappy series to rest now, and go back to real Trek?

164. AJ - May 14, 2014

Nope…No pressure…

165. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

“I’ve already told you what I heard, that Orci cock-blocked every director who came in for meetings on the project, making it look like anyone who helmed would be his dancing monkey. Who wants that when you already have pressure from the fans and the studio? Orci made a power move to guarantee his ass in the director’s chair despite a huge lack of experience. How did Paramount allow this to happen?” – Devin Faraci

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/nailbiter111/news/?a=100019#uqvmUMkdhPG6WyFA.99

166. smike - May 14, 2014

First I have to say that this MIGHT be a big chance to get a movie that is slightly different from the first two while still feeling like being part of the same trilogy…

While I would have prefered a bigger name such as Spielberg or Raimi for the 50th anniversary, a directing debute by one of the Supreme Court is definitely better than bringing in any second-rate director from outside.

Now we will see whether Orci is going to be our new Nimoy (good!) or Shatner / Baird (not so good!)… All of them were newbies to the bigscreen director’s chair back then so it’s not unusual for Star Trek to helmed by newcomers…

That said… it mainly depends on the script. I sincerely hope it’ll be a better effort than last time, not so much riddled with poltholes, conveniences, shoehorning and absurdity… STID is my least favourote Trek movie of all time and this was not the director’s fault… Maybe Orci will do a much better job behind the camera than as a writer…

167. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

“Perhaps Star Trek (sic) 3 will have super-super-blood.” =D

168. smike - May 14, 2014

BTW: Is it ORKI or ORSI?

169. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

I think some people are taking this too seriously. We aren’t talking about something sacred like the Bible, Constitution, etc. It’s just entertainment. Having watched Trek since the beginning, I’ve always dreamed of having Trek movies or TV shows that would be fun, big-budget blockbusters. BR/JJ/Orci/Kurtzman delivered! Were they perfect? Of course not.

Bob’s the showrunner now and I plan on supporting his vision. I just think it’s perfect that ‘one of us’ is directing the 50th anniversary movie!

170. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

Orci >>> or-see

171. Picard, Jean-Luc - May 14, 2014

Woop! Way to go Roberto Orci!!!

Wish list and random musings

Sulu is captain and had completed his first 6 months as captain of the USS Excelsior

Benedict Cumberbatch is missing from his sleep and revealed not to be khan but khans right hand man covering for him.

Khan is still asleep on the bottany bay adrift in space. Cumberbatch goes after Spock.

In a Days of future past type scenario prime and alt universe collide bringing Brent Spiners Data, Michael Dorn’s Worf and Patrick Stewarts Admiral Picard on board the USS Enterprise E into the alternate universe

The Borg are in it

Romulans and Klingons.

I like the lensflares so keep them.

Above all else this movie sets up perfectly a new USS Exelsior crew to spin off onto a TV series lead by John Cho. Maybe bringing Karl Urban along for the ride and sets up an animated series continuing the voyages of the USS enterprise voiced by Pine, Saldana, Pegg, Quinto, Eve, Yelchen.

More toys toys toys!

A better video game.

Involve aspects of Star Trek online too would be cool

Basically rather than have it feel like Abrams Trek vs prime trek, make it one Trek one love! It’s all relative rather than this is just a new franchise, tie it all together whilst keeping the current stuff accessible to new fans.

No Nimoy or Shatner… Maybe Shatner but also a big worthy A list actor or actress.

No boobs out

No Gi-Joe or transformers militaristic feel to it, a period piece, sweeping in scope and scale. Shot on location not on green screen and away from the usual locations around the paramount lot.

For a title: Star Trek The Voyage Continues. Or Star Trek The Continuing Mission, Or Star Trek Continues. Or even Star Trek Ongoing. Something hopeful, Star Trek was born, we Trekked Into Darkness, now let’s see these guys explore oh maybe even Star Trek: Strange New Worlds!

On a side note it would be awesome if Paramount and Disney had a bit of fun rivalry going on between Trek and Wars, all light hearted stuff and nothing that would affect the on screen productions but maybe some viral posters or campaigns with Kirk facing off with Han Solo or Darth Vader facing off with Khan.

More Cumberbatch!!!! I want my cumbie!

172. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

…as long as boborci is stirring the pot, it’ll be sh*t soup… =(

my prediction: LAUGHABLY *EPIC* FAIL =(

…but the dollars will be rolling in… =(

173. smike - May 14, 2014

@171: Some good ideas but I guess the plot will revolve around the Klingons, which absolutely makes sense given that they used to be our allegorical “Russians” in the 60s and 80s… With the Cold War refueled by the current crisis in Ukraine, it has proven almost prophetic to tease an upcoming war with the Klingons in STID…

I just hope it won’t be like that: Klingons capturing Kirk for the superblood in his veins and Spock stealing the Enterprise from spacedock to search for him on planet Tribble Prime…

You never know…

174. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 14, 2014

130. New Horizon

…and please, no more 20th century glass!

It breaks way too easy and in zero G becomes a real health hazard.

175. smike - May 14, 2014

I still hope they’ll shoot ST3 and 4 back to back for the 50th anniversary… two movies…one for May, the other one for September, right for the anniversary. They should be titled STAR TREK BEYOND and STAR TREK FOREVER…

176. Randall Williams - May 14, 2014

Congratulations Mr. Orci!

While I definately had issues with STID I did not have personal issues with
you. I wish you success in your directorial debut with a difficult franchise.

Here’s to your hopefully long career as a film director!

177. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

Oscar’s “Trojan Horse” theory is interesting… and it makes sense… =(

these people want to destroy (real) Star Trek intellectually, leaving a hollow deceitful vehicle for profit, pillaging OUR cherished brand name… =(

this is the (financial) victors re-writing history… and it sucks… =(

thanks boborci… =(

178. Indiana - May 14, 2014

@ 171. Picard

And then you woke up…Seriously dude?

179. smike - May 14, 2014

And yeah, also finally make this R-Rated Klingon spin-off movie directed by Quentin Targhantino :-))

180. Kenji - May 14, 2014

Whoa.

Saw this in Variety, ran over here to see what people think.

I’m concerned because TASM2 was wack apart from the fight staging and postconversion 3D.

I’m thrilled because the sideboot Trek09 was amazing, and because finally a full on Trek geek, one of us, will be calling the shots on the next feature.

181. William Bradley - May 14, 2014

Well, Bob, you are clearly a very smart guy and clearly a Trekker, er, Trekkie, ah, you know … :) … so knock it out of the park, man.

It’s the 50th anniversary Star Trek film, a dream gig.

So, no pressure then …

182. Phil - May 14, 2014

“I’ve already told you what I heard, that Orci cock-blocked every director…”

Loose translation: ‘What I’ve heard’ is synonymous with ‘I’m making up stories’ that suit whatever opinion is being foisted at the time. This clown either needs to cite his source or put a sock in it.

Even worse, the concept is just ludicrous on first look. If someone is seriously going to suggest that some other big name director got the run-around, well, who was that director? That would suggest that that anonymous big name director was pretty stupid to get ram-roded out of his dream gig by some wet behind the ears TV producer….

Then again, coming from this site main proponent of junk science and fake news, this isn’t a surprise.

183. PaulB - May 14, 2014

Bob Orci,

Best of luck, and all my hopes! I hope the added stress of directing will be countered by the reduced stress from resisting Lindelof’s bad ideas.

I keeed, I keeed! Lindelof’s been roasted enough…and this is about YOUR big moment.

Just remember that, whenever Paramount resists your Trekkie ideas, you can rally many fans to support you–if you, um, resist certain linguistic choices. ;)

GOOD LUCK! Keep a detailed journal–a Trekkie directing a Trek film?! That’ll sell.

184. TUP - May 14, 2014

Why I like this:

Hes a fan that will service us fans.

Why I don’t like this:

STID was a convoluted, contrived disaster that actually made Star Trek worse upon repeated viewings.

So really, it could go either way.

185. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

Parallel Worlds Exist and Will Soon Be Testable, Expert Says:

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pelletier20131227

186. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

Phil: re: ‘I’m making up stories’… (spinning)

pot, kettle, black… ‘nuf said? LOL!

187. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

…know what’s fake? having 5-day stubble with a shaved neck… =(

(do i *look like* a hard-working director? ..got my JJ cap, my chair…)

doot-dee-doo… doodley-doot… =P

188. Plum - May 14, 2014

@Boborci

Gratz Orci! Personally I’m interested in this team. A new director and two new writers. Who knows what they will come up with?

Just my opinion, but I don’t get too upset when a film or show doesn’t work out. Star Trek Into Darkness (grammar, it’s a thing) didn’t work out story wise, I likened it to a Roger Corman flick, but it could have been worse. It could have been Nemesis, which had some stuff that was just offensive, and that was written by an Oscar winner.

Warp speed Orci! :)

189. Mr. Zoom - May 14, 2014

I’m a bit nervous about Paramount handing the directorial reins of a $150 million tentpole to someone with *no* experience as a director. Seems like it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

No offense intended to Mr. Orci, I would feel the same way about anyone else with the same lack of experience.

But I would love to be proven wrong.

190. Phil - May 14, 2014

@185. I’m not the one making stuff up, your reference is. Produce one thing I’ve made up here, and I’ll gladly apologize.

I’m not going to hold my breath, it’ll take you a while…

191. Bamasi - May 14, 2014

If we get less lens flares, I’m going to chalk this up as a win.

192. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

Phil: to be clear (since you ask): IMO, u take what some others (and notably, myself) say, and “spin” (distort) it into something “more”, usually in an attempt to (falsely IMO) discredit, or create negative impression…

other than that, i will try to ignore your inanity… =(

193. Bart - May 14, 2014

189: I still want a few lens flares. I love the look of the new movies. It was too much in the first one….too many. JJ used some lens flare restraint by the second one. I don’t want to lose them completely.

194. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

Congratulations, Bob!

195. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

lens flares are a HACK move… but they dilate the pupils… so droolers love ‘em!

(it’s a nu-trek TM! it’ll have ‘em, but continue to tone-down…)
(don’t want to be TOO much of a joke…) =(

196. Corylea - May 14, 2014

Leonard Nimoy was a first-time director when he made “The Search for Spock,” and he was great, so brand-new directors CAN do a good job. There aren’t many people who have Mr. Nimoy’s talent or his dedication to making Star Trek GOOD, but maybe Mr. Orci will be one of them. I’m gonna cross my fingers and hope.

At least the people who wanted to put Khan in “Into Darkness” are out of the picture; perhaps Mr. Orci will do a reasonable job without their influence.

197. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

#75 – “.No blowing up planets because you lack ideas. (remember your a custodian you don’t own the franchise)”

Yet more idiotic rubbish from a naysayer. Who do you think signed off on the idea of planets being blown up, while, at the same time, demanding that the Enterprise not be destroyed? PARAMOUNT – the franchise owner!

“.No people taking their clothes of and wearing underwear. (If you have to strip someone semi naked because you cant give them a few lines to make them someone we want to be interested in and not just to look at. You can get the F. out of the writing room there is to work for you here)”

What? Still obsessed by the blink and you miss sight of (human) beings not being covered from head to foot? Oh dear…I see that you do not call for no more vicious kicking of a man while he’s down (Khan kicking Kirk on the Vengeance) or a little skull crushing (Khan killed Marcus that way) among all the no’s that you have outlined. Got it! UGH!!!
Who the hell are you to say that Bob should “get the F. out of the writing room”?
Anyway, what’s with all the no this, no that?

198. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

It’s Sink or Swim!

(Star Trek (sic) sinks, while boborci swims away with the cash…)

=(

199. Bill - May 14, 2014

Congratulations on the new job, sir. And good luck. If these comments are any indication your team has their work cut out for them.

200. JRT! - May 14, 2014

Oscar – what’s this 25th anniversary movie you speak of? Did I miss something? Just curious.

Also on CBM,another site I frequent,was how he got the job. Apparently it wasn’t by playing nice. Guess that’s Hollywood for ya. Although I DO enjoy it whenever I go there,lol! Which is every summer,on my way to Comic Con,and Christmas,which is just a nice relaxing vacation,lol.

Good luck Bob! I’ll be sitting on the fence till I see some footage or pics or whatever.

J-R!

201. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

@Bob Orci – Congratulations! It seems clear that you are seen as a person with great potential and capability, otherwise Paramount and the other investors would have passed you over for another with more directing experience.

I look forward to seeing your efforts. There is always a chance that I might be (very) disappointed but I seriously doubt that will be the case. So far so good!

I don’t think I need to repeat what I would like to see in a Star Trek movie that involves “my captain” and the other TOS alt-characters.

“Let’s ride” (BTW – I would love to see this younger Jim Kirk ride a horse. What are the chances?)

Are you getting this?
Good man…:)

202. NuFan - May 14, 2014

If I’m a mindless newbie fan, how come I’m the only one here that accurately predicted the STID plot? I think some old-timey fans have shown some tremendous stupidity here.

Oh, slow it down Bob. It’s too fast. I can’t admire the nacelles. Everything is so fast. We need some real Star Trek again so I can get some sleep.

Oh, well. We will just keep on winning and you can keep on losing.

203. Moshe - May 14, 2014

“No details about the film are known, but the entire cast is expected to return.”

Seriously? They’re bringing Benedict Cumberbatch back?

204. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

@ 182. PaulB – May 14, 2014

“Keep a detailed journal–a Trekkie directing a Trek film?! That’ll sell.”

Something similar to Peter Jackson production videos would be great.

205. dswynne - May 14, 2014

To everyone, pro and con on this matter:

If Orci succeeds in making a good ST3 film, then Bad Robot will continue to produce NuTrek (which may or may not have anything to do with a CBS-inspired TV series, since the point of the reboot is to allow Paramount to make ST films with its own mythology.

If Orci fails, then that’s the end of NuTrek, and BR’s association to the franchise. Does this means that there will be a return to the Prime Timeline? No, because its easier to do a reboot than do a film series using existing canon (not so with a TV series per se, since that aspect of the franchise exist separately from the films).

Nevertheless, I wish Orci well in his endeavors. :-)

206. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

#183 I am not Herbert – Gosh, you really are desperate to find *fault*, aren’t you?

Apparently, it is bad form in male grooming to have whiskers growing on the neck, hence Bob’s shaving of his neck. I agree with that view. Bob Orci looks fine – a properly groomed modern man, ie neck shaven but having stubble/start of a beard.

207. Bill Peters - May 14, 2014

201 I think they mean the Cast that plays the Big E’s Crew….

208. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

#201 – What I think is meant by “entire cast” are the seven actors who play the main characters, ie Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Uhura, Scotty, Sulu and Chekov. Benedict Cumberbatch, Peter Weller and Alice Eve were guest actors (cast).
Those seven actors have been contracted to be in three ST movies.

209. Bill Peters - May 14, 2014

Orci has given him the opportunity to work alongside some notable directors, including Michael Bay, J.J. Abrams, Jon Favreau and Marc Webb and I bet he will use what he has seen them do as Guidance for what needs to be done on this film.

210. Bill Peters - May 14, 2014

I wouldn’t be Surprised if Alice Eve is back for this Flim.

211. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

@ Bob Orci (in particular) –

I think I may have said this before…

Just to clarify – I am not so much pointing what should or should not have been shown in these two Star Trek movies, as I am commenting on how certain scenes have been either obsessed over (Carol in her underwear) or ignored (Marcus having his skull crushed by Khan), usually by the same people. Marja would be one of the few exceptions because she has commented on both scenes, either for its apparent sexism etc or for its horrific violence. This is similar to the comments made about scenes in the first Star Trek film, eg the bar scene from the point where Kirk acknowledges Uhura’s presence by commenting on the number of drinks she is ordering…to end where he is talking with Pike.

It is not the scenes, but the general, overall reaction (as far as I can tell) that confused me and now seriously bothers me. It is the appearance of a certain mental and moral ineptitude as well as the glaring hypocrisy that so many commentators demonstrate. Should this not bother others, including yourself, Bob Orci?

212. Phil - May 14, 2014

I’m kinda hoping that Cumberbatch and Eve take a pass on the next movie. Been there, done that.

213. Phil - May 14, 2014

@193. Apparently you haven’t seen TMP. Plenty of lens flares. Robert Wise, hack director.

Right….

214. Phil - May 14, 2014

@190. Really. You post fake news, I point out that it’s fake news. I don’t comment on it at all, so there’s no opinion or spin involved….

215. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

keep on spinnin’… =(

216. B Kramer - May 14, 2014

Congrats Roberto – you lucky, lucky son of a gun.

Shatspeare says: Great luck and for God’s sake don’t screw this up. No pressure, it’s only the golden anniversary. ;^)

http://whatculture.com/tv/10-reasons-why-james-t-kirk-is-best-star-trek-captain.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBN9jpooZoM&list=PLrMEncyd64BdDvYrb4wo3Orda8GcsvCSj

Vida Larga y Próspera

217. Phil - May 14, 2014

Well, now that the cat is out of the bag, what’s the over/under that director Bob will show up a frequently as writer Bob did?

218. Andrew - May 14, 2014

I’m encouraged by this news and wish Roberto Orci the best in directing the next Star Trek movie. Happy Paramount decided to keep the directing job in-family by picking someone who is familiar with Star Trek and the reboot Trek too. While I liked the action and scope of the last movie, I do believe the plot was a little muddled, but that to me stems from the decision to redo Khan and trying to make it different while also living up to Star Trek II. Now that they got Khan out of their system, the filmmakers and Orci can maybe try to tackle something new or something we haven’t seen in Trek movies before. That Bob Orci is a fan of Star Trek and knows it inside and out gives me confidence that he will direct and make a good movie that fans will appreciate.

219. Dion1701 - May 14, 2014

Two days, 200 plus comments and a whole lot of whining! Truly, if you want to knit pick you can find fault in every movie and each of the series including the original series itself. I love the show and am a huge fan but not every episode was great. Same goes for the films with the original cast or TNG cast. I say give Bob Orci a chance and let’s let his movie speak for itself. Trust me, all of you will be here commenting and arm chair quarterbacking after the release. I wonder if it’s a good or great Trek movie how many will apologize for their comments today and admit they were wrong?

Here is another easy point to all you would be critics. Bob Orci is out there doing what he loves. Can any of you say the same? What stopped you from going to film school or becoming a writer and telling the Trek stories the way you want them told? Braga, Moore, Piller, Orci and so on all did it. Write a graphic novel, start a fan based production and put your work out there for all of us and the world to make comment on. I would venture to say many of you would not have the courage to do so. It seems you only have the courage to sit in anonymity at your computers and tear someone else’s work apart. So brave of you.

What so many of you forget is Paramount does not care about the fans as much as they do the dollar and showing a profit to their investors. Since they write the checks they call the shots and they control a lot of the tone. The last two films did great at the box office which tells them something they are doing is right, even if we all feel it is a bit wrong. Star Trek 09 $257,730,019, STID $228,778,661 and the fan lovee The Voyage Home $109,713,132 – The new films DOUBLED what the best of the old films did. DOUBLE!

Were the last two films perfect? No, nor were the two prior to JJ’s new universe. That said they each entertained me and gave me a little escape to a universe I love. So give Bob a chance and stop your damn whining. You make the rest of us fans look bad.

220. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

We don’t need to see Khan again, which is a shame because Benedict Cumberbatch is good value. We’ve only just met the young Carol Marcus, so there could still be a good (alternative) story to tell involving her and Jim Kirk – or not.

I would like to see Jim Kirk be involved with a nice lady (human or other). It could make for an interesting sub-plot having Jim form a deeper relationship with the two Caitian women. A little exposition could tell us that Caitian women have always come as a *pair when Caitian women have romantic/sexual relationships with any man, especially if he is alien. I suppose that might be a little too “out there” for some, but for others, it might make for an original and fascinating interlude…

* This is not the same as the idea of Christine Chapel competing with Uhura for the attention/affections of Spock. The caitian females are more akin to being like two halves of a whole. They do not compete for exclusivity. They naturally share.

The Son of Jellos, Oscars etc are only too willing to negate, but unable to offer any actual alternative story ideas…I just can’t take these people seriously anymore…:(

221. Ensign Ricky - May 14, 2014

Congrats to Bob Orci! I know he’ll do a good job!

222. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

This is an interesting time for Bob Orci who clearly likes to be intellectually and physically challenged otherwise he would not have put his hat into “who will be the next director?” ring.

Directing a movie does require stamina. Two sayings keep popping into my head –
“Be careful what you wish for. You just may get it” and the other is an ancient Chinese curse, “May you be born in interesting times”.

Have a care and take care, Roberto Orci. Do yourself and us proud!

223. Phil - May 14, 2014

@216. Actually more then that. Bad Robot Trek has accounted for:

39% of all Trek movie revenue, domestically
23% of all Trek movie revenue, domestically (inflation adjusted)
61% of all Trek movie revenue, worldwide

It seems lost on a few people that without an audience, there is no Trek, and Bad Robot has delivered that audience. In spades.

224. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

Star Trek Out of Darkness

Written, Produced & Directed by Roberto Orci

Coming to a Theater Near You in Summer 2016

225. dmduncan - May 14, 2014

Congratulations and good luck, dude!

226. Bill Peters - May 14, 2014

219 Good Points.

Rose I find it hard to take those Individuals seriously anymore eather.

227. Curious Cadet - May 14, 2014

@215. Phil,
“what’s the over/under that director Bob will show up a frequently as writer Bob did?”

If he does, I’d say that’s real cause for concern …

228. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

223. Curious Cadet

Why?

229. NuFan - May 14, 2014

Is JJ still the boss, Bob? Will you have to be highly secretive with Star Trek 3?

230. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

@ 223. Curious Cadet – May 14, 2014

“If he does, I’d say that’s real cause for concern …”

Not necessarily.

===================================

It Doesn’t Really Matter Who Directs ‘Star Trek 3′

If there’s anything we’ve learned from the past two decades of blockbusting dominance, it’s that sequels are somehow not universally feared anymore. If there’s a second thing we’ve learned, it’s that studios are embracing franchising instead of stripping a popular movie for parts and hack-jobbing it into a 7-movie series composed mostly of direct-to-your-home schlock until it fails to turn a profit on diminishing returns.

And if there’s a third lesson, it’s that the insulation of studio filmmaking has largely made the director’s name irrelevant. Particularly when we’re talking about a third or fourth entry. [...] But, okay, prevailing wisdom says it’s not smart to give a $200m budget film to a first timer. It also says that rookie directors will rely on their DPs and department heads heavily. With those competing ideas in mind, I’d be willing to bet that Orci will be learning on the job with the largest safety net possible. It’s not like he’s soldiering out with credit card debt and a dream here. He’s partnering with a corporation with a half-billion-dollar interest in getting the product they want.

That’s not to say it’s impossible for him to screw it up or that directing a movie of that size is in anyway easy (because it’s insanely difficult), but there are a significant amount of safeguards in place here — including an established set of aesthetics — and Orci knows the Star Trek team and Paramount well enough to take full advantage of the veterans at his disposal.

He’s within the sphere of talent that renders his name sufficient enough for the task. Beyond that, the studio very well may see him as a team player who won’t fight when they offer notes or guide him toward exactly what they want in order to sell the most toys. He’s a close cousin to the commercial spec director brought up to the big leagues. The bottom line being that there is a system at work here much larger than the director.

The most interesting part of all of this will be how Orci does as the final arbiter of his own screenwriting. Maybe that’s what people are really afraid of.

http://filmschoolrejects.com/opinions/roberto-orci-doesnt-matter-who-directs-star-trek-3.php

231. Johnny807 - May 14, 2014

@Bob Orci

Contrats Bob! Personally, I feel like this just maked ST3 a better movie. It was Bob that new that the un-filmed Kirk scene would work despite what others said and it was Bob who knew and said to JJ that Trek fans would hate seeing the SSBN Enterprise play around in the bathtub so to speak.

For those that worry about his directoral prowess, he’s been a producer on more than a few movies and executive producer on more than a few TV shows so it’s not like he’s starting from zilch. Plus JJ is still going to be a producer for ST3 so it’s not like he won’t have any support.

I’m not worried. I’m excited. I’m excited that someone who has the balls to come onto the TrekMovie forums on a regular basis to get our opinions about Trek and to see how sharp and intelligent an audience he’s dealing with … I’m more excited than ever now that Bob Orci is at the helm. IMO this movie just got much, much better.

232. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

Bob Orci-

Congratulations again.

There’re two things I would love for you to correct/address in your Trek. (Well actually a great many things, but two that are relatively easy fixes/tweaks and at least one of which that would yield great dividends as to how the picture will be received, IMO) –

1) The lack of rank indication on the female minidress uniforms. You have to admit it’s more than a little illogical to not have them and there’s no justifiable reason for their absence. If there is I’d love to hear it.

2) Winona Kirk! Acknowledge her existence in some way please. If not an appearance then a photo or a hologram or at least a mention…something, please. The Kelvin sequence is hands down my favorite bit of NuTrek and I’ve expected to see or hear more about Kirk’s mom ever since. I think even a small nod to her, and Amanda Grayson for that matter, would add a lot of heart to the film and I know would be appreciated by quite a few of us. We all love and appreciate our Mothers :-)

I’ve brought up these omissions before and others on this board have as well, more than I. Addressing both would be pluses for your film. And as director and writer of the next the next Trek it’s certainly within your power to do something about these omissions. Please consider. TY

233. P Technobabble - May 14, 2014

One thing some Trek fans know how to do (to one degree or another) is speculate, second-guess, make demands, speak on behalf of all fandom, and so forth.
Yawn…

Congrats Bob. May the wind be at your back.

234. El Chup - May 14, 2014

Count me out. I still haven’t forgotten his disgusting rant against the fans.

235. c0mBaTkArL - May 14, 2014

I’m delighted by this news. Been a life long fan of all Trek since I discovered it as a boy in the early 70’s, and the new films didn’t let me down at all. Congrats Bob! Can’t wait to see what you have in store for us.

236. Phil - May 14, 2014

@230. Good op-ed piece, and it does speak to the heart of the qualified/not qualified debate here. It would be interesting to know who the competition was…if any.

237. The Batman - May 14, 2014

Best possible scenario: this movie tanks, Trek goes away in film for a few decades, Paramount greenlights a new series somewhere with Ron Moore behind the helm.

238. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

@ 236. Phil – May 14, 2014

“It would be interesting to know who the competition was…if any.”

Yep, would love to find out about that too.

239. Trekbilly - May 14, 2014

In case I didn’t say it before, allow me to say it again — CONGRATULATIONS BOB!!!! WHOO HOO!!!

240. Viking - May 14, 2014

High five, Bob! Now, ya gotta come up with a good title. Lessee…….you did it sans a colon in the last one, so just go all Mötley Crüe this time and throw a couple of umlauts in there. That would go great with the racing flames I keep asking to get painted down the side of one of the shuttlecraft…..*WINK* *WINK* *NUDGE*

241. dswynne - May 14, 2014

@224 (Ahmed): How about “Star Trek Beyond Silence”? Both my title and the previous film’s title is a play on the words of Dr. McCoy, back in ST’09, when he first met Jim Kirk:

“Space is a disease wrapped in DARKNESS and SILENCE!”

Perhaps the new threat wants to end life in the galaxy, and feels justified in doing so, for whatever reason, and without ill-will?

242. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

234. El Chup
He apologized about that. Everyone makes mistakes every now and then.

243. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

#232 – Yes. Is Winona Kirk still alive? Where is she? What about Sam? Could we not see them or at least hear about what has happened to them, what they are doing etc?

Oh dear, poor Bob – now he has indeed put himself into the hot seat…sizzle, sizzle…

The good thing about Paramount/Skydance… making this decision now is that Bob can get on with it and not wait for a director to sign off on things to do with pre-production etc, which is what happened with the making of STID when everyone had to wait until JJ Abrams made up his mind and became the movie’s official director. Honestly – that was not good.

Rumour has it (not stated fact) that principle photography on this third movie is to begin near the end of this year or early next year. This will give Bob Orci some five to seven months to get things ready. Perhaps things have already started, especially if the story is more character/dialogue driven…

244. Vger23 - May 14, 2014

This is good news. I am glad that Bob gets a shot at a dream job. I think he is the best shot for taking what is great about the new version of Star Trek that JJ started and adding elements from the old-school Trek we all know and love. This will be the best product for an anniversary film hopefully!

I don’t care about Bob telling folks to F-off. People in forums like this are cruel, ignorant, narrow and spiteful (everything Trek tries to teach us to avoid) and deserved to be put in their place. It’s one thing to voice an opinion…it’s another thing to attack film makers personally. I have no sympathy for what Bob and Simon Pegg said. If you were insulted by that, you probably deserved it.

As for having inexperience, let’s not forget that Nick Meyer was still relatively unknown and brought a great new perspective to Star Trek II. There’s no reason inexperience needs to be a pain point. I trust Bob because he loves Star Trek.

I’m looking forward to the outcome, hoping that the writing and direction are tweaked a bit more toward classic Trek while still maintaining the excitement and modern sensibility of the last two films. If it can be a little more character-driven, slightly slower-paced, and focus on a story that inspires wonder through a quest/exploration/discovery plot (no Klingon wars, no Khans, etc ) I will be ecstatic.

If you were brave enough to come out here and read, you’ll hopefully see that it’s the same 2-3 negative people posting the garbage. The rest of Trek fandom’s hearts are with you, including this 36-year superfan.

Bob, let your instincts guide you. Don’t try to make everyone happy. Just make your movie and let the chips fall where they may. And, MAY THE WIND BE AT YOUR BACK.

245. Xeos - May 14, 2014

Bob has been responsible for a lot of the fan favorite decisions over the recent years. I’m really looking forward to seeing his directorial debut.

246. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

@241. dswynne

“@224 (Ahmed): How about “Star Trek Beyond Silence”? Both my title and the previous film’s title is a play on the words of Dr. McCoy, back in ST’09, when he first met Jim Kirk:

“Space is a disease wrapped in DARKNESS and SILENCE!””

I like that.

247. Phil - May 14, 2014

@240 Star Trek: Born to Run.

I think Springsteen has a couple of Oscars on his shelf….I go see it 15 times with The Boss on board.

248. Timncc1701 - May 14, 2014

Bob, you are carrying the hopes of all ST fans. As the only member of the old Supreme Court with any background in Trek fandom, we are counting on you to right this ship. I wish you success in keeping the legacy of TOS intact. Please, more McCoy, more character development leading to a “correction” of the timeline….Please bring us closer to the one that started it all. Do that, and make it entertaining for today’s add audience, and you will have something. RESPECT THE CHAIR! please.

249. Viking - May 14, 2014

Bob, the ‘training wheels’ are off, so to speak, and this one is for the big Five-Oh. Have a party with the thing. You know, like Clifton Collins’ character Larry said in ‘Hellbenders’ – tie one on, drag it around ’til it’s dead……….

250. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

I do think BR has made it a little difficult for themselves taking the colon out of the titles. The title has to be a sentence that begins with Star Trek, makes sense and is terse and intriguing and not clumsy. And it needs to be original (or it would help if it were).

Was it ever revealed what the other possible titles were before …Into Darkness was decide chosen? They might very well opt for one of those, not unlike The Undiscovered Country which was the original title of The Wrath of Khan, being eventually used for STIV.

251. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

The colon was taken out of ONE title. There is no reason why it could not be put back into another title…sigh…

252. Viking - May 14, 2014

@247 Phil – I was thinking something a little more nihilistic, or Nietzschean, woven into the fabric of the soundtrack if it’s a Klingon storyline. A work by Richard Wagner, for example. A musical demarcation defining the existential dualities of the Federation and the Empire; their aggressive, confrontational Yang contrasting the more passive, cerebral Yin represented by the Federation.

Or we could just say to hell with it and throw some classic Van Halen in there. I’m a cheap date. LOL

253. Disinvited - May 14, 2014

#236. Phil – May 14, 2014

I goes with out saying that Cornish was definitely in negotiations.

254. Bucky - May 14, 2014

Big Orci fan and all the work he’s done with the franchise so far (even the comics, the Khan mini is amazing!) so I’m down with this.

On the flipside, I think I found the greatest quip on the Internet with a comment saying: “when the new Trek flick crashes and burns, this time it will have actually been an inside job.”

255. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

251. Keachick (Rose)

I could’ve sworn someone at BR said, way back when, that they weren’t going to use colons in their Trek films to differentiate them from the over TOS films. I may be misremembering this or misinterpreted what was said or it may have been an unofficial source. Sorry to’ve made you sigh Keachick. sigh ;-)

256. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

*other* TOS films

257. Finnigan - May 14, 2014

Congratulations to Captain Dunsel.

My expectations are so low for the next movie that nothing this guy does will really surprise me. STID was a huge disappointment and now they have put one of the people responsible for that pathetic script in the director’s chair.

258. 750 Mang - May 14, 2014

This should kill Trek for another five to ten years. Star Trek 3.0: The Search for Numb Tongue.

259. I am not Herbert - May 14, 2014

Re: It Doesn’t Really Matter Who Directs ‘Star Trek 3′

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrmZ30seKeM

260. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

256. Finnigan
257. 750 Mang

Trek was DEAD before these guys updated it so that future generations can enjoy new adventures for another 50 years. Remember, you have 700+ hours of prime Trek to enjoy along with always improving fan fiction.

261. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

#254 Sorry. I do not recall reading that but it does seem silly of Bad Robot to box themselves in like that. It is fixable though.

#256 – Oh dear…I can just that smallest of violins…

I think I should take a break. I am feeling grumpy and that’s not good…:(

262. Keachick (Rose) - May 14, 2014

edit: grumpy and tired. “I can just that smallest…” should read, “I can just HEAR that smallest…”

263. Disinvited - May 14, 2014

##236. Phil – May 14, 2014

In the article/interview written by Lindelof on K&O’s BR writing “process” for that WGA, West publication, it is my understanding that once the draft is done, they look to see which director’s voice the complete piece most closely matches and then they go after that person for director. In that case, I think it is a safe bet that Orci and JJ felt this script had a Cornish voice which is why they went after him. So the list was likely composed of director’s in that vein?

The only other straw that I can think of to grasp is there was that professional industry stats publication that claimed Bob worked with Del Toro on INTO THE DARKNESS so I can wonder if Benicio directing BR’s 3rd Trek might have been something that was on the table in his negotiations?

264. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

About the colons

============================

With numbers off the table, there’s always the trusty colon, but Lindelof said they want to steer away from that trend. “There’s no word that comes after the colon after ‘Star Trek’ that’s cool,” he said. “Not that ‘Star Trek: Insurrection’ or ‘First Contact’ aren’t good titles, it’s just that everything that people are turned off about when it comes to ‘Trek’ is represented by the colon.”

http://www.mtv.com/news/1689651/damon-lindelof-star-trek-comic-con/

265. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

263. Disinvited
“I can wonder if Benicio directing BR’s 3rd Trek might have been something that was on the table in his negotiations?”

I think that is grasping at straws. But on the other hand Del Toro does have a couple of directing credits to his name.

Whether in a good way or in a bad, I think Bob Orci’s Trek definitely has the potential to be THE most remarkable of them all. In a good way I hope.

266. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

264. Ahmed

Thanks Ahmed. I thought I’d read something like that somewhere.

267. Vger23 - May 14, 2014

I have a sneaking suspicion that the colon or lack thereof really has nothing to do with the quality of the film.

I also don’t think it’s something we should stress about.

Admittedly, I could be wrong…but it’s a fair guess I think.

268. Phil - May 14, 2014

There’s never a resected colon around when you need one….

269. crazydaystrom - May 14, 2014

Who’s stressing Vger23?

Interesting fact – years ago when my son was an infant I had a t-shirt made for him that had Vger printed on the front and the the number 23 on the back.

270. Viking - May 14, 2014

Colons. Violins. *grumble* Unbelievable.

SAY, FOLKS, HOW ABOUT THEM RED SOX???? :-D

271. dmduncan - May 14, 2014

264. Ahmed – May 14, 2014

With numbers off the table, there’s always the trusty colon, but Lindelof said they want to steer away from that trend.

“…it’s just that everything that people are turned off about when it comes to ‘Trek’ is represented by the colon.”

***

…because the colon has been the birth canal for so many Trek movies.

272. boborci - May 14, 2014

thanks, everybody.

273. Phil - May 14, 2014

@271. You’re welcome. And don’t you have a movie to make? :-)

274. MagicDan - May 14, 2014

Go get ‘em Bob! I’m behind you 100%.

And I’m not t a big fan of the new Trek, TOS / Original crew is what I like.

275. Mike Barnett - May 14, 2014

boborci:

Have fun!

276. Ahmed - May 14, 2014

@ 271. boborci

All the best in your new adventure

277. Harry Ballz - May 14, 2014

Bob, best guess, how many “tingle” moments are in the next movie?

278. Marja - May 14, 2014

Wish lists are a little embarrassing [171].

But.

– A little more thought and less action

– More discussion and a hella lot less person-to-person violence

– Yes! some camera-love on that beautiful new ship, but can the fins on the rear of the nacelles.Remember to show us the Enterprise is a beautiful lady and that’s why we love her

– McCoy as trusted counsel to Kirk and Spock, arguing the humanist viewpoint; McCoy doing medicine

– Uhura translating and [with C Marcus perhaps] in an action scene

– Spock and Uhura, steady on, Kirk and C Marcus tentative first steps

– rank insignia on the women’s minidress!!! I’m beggin’ ya.

– how about men in their underwear and women observing them? Heh!

279. James H - May 14, 2014

Bob, if you do anything different in this movie from those prior…please…

…no big, super powerful, dark bad guy ship.

For the love of God, please.

280. Navy - May 15, 2014

If only I could afford to produce Star Trek. I guess the best future trek will still be in my imagination.

281. Son of Jello - May 15, 2014

Keachick (Rose)

After last time I just fell conversation is a dead end with you.

Maybe you could get a T-shirt with “All hollow are the Ori” (sorry Orci) it fits in with the theme that some ST fans have that the writers directors and producers etc are their to be worshiped admired and are above being criticised.

282. Janice - May 15, 2014

Right a wrong from STID and bring back PIKE.

283. Hugh Hoyland - May 15, 2014

Hey Bob, I know your busy bro but I do have a question or two. I’m interested in what you have in mind visually for this movie. Do you want to continue the visual tone of what JJ did on the first two?

Or do you have something else in mind? And what directors influence your up coming style?

284. Killamarshtrek - May 15, 2014

Hi boborci.

Great to see you back on here.

I’m confident you’ll do a great job now that you’re in charge and can stick to your guns (no Khan, certainly not a british one, & no rehashed scenes from old movies)!

Oh… and how are you with lens flare?

285. Lurker - May 15, 2014

Congrats Bob – can’t wait to see this excellent cast and crew on the big screen again.

286. Elias Javalis - May 15, 2014

It would be interesting to hear the kind of budget it will have.

287. JimGrant1701 - May 15, 2014

I think it’s great news to have him directing! I also hope that the new “Anniversary” movie can have roles for William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and Nichelle Nichols as their characters are prominent in the new timeline and would be a nice added touch.

288. PaulB - May 15, 2014

Bob Orci,

My only advice on this film is “Avoid the avoidable complaints.”

Things like calling the Federation an armada, or having Khan refer to the Enterprise’s “aft” nacelle.
Minor, pointless, easy-to-fix things that lead to YEARS of idiotic arguments! (Self included–I’m guilty of nitpicking.)

Not-so-minor things like putting rank on the women’s uniforms, too!

No matter what, fans will argue about character and plot choices, but you can avoid much of the foolishness in our responses by avoiding foolishness in your script. (Seriously…aft nacelle?)

Oh, and work on your Vulcan salute so we don’t have decades of complaints about your too-tucked-in thumb. (So you speak sign-Vulcan with an accent…so what?) :)

Peace and best wishes!

289. Exverlobter - May 15, 2014

And now cast Vin Diesel as Kor/Kolloth/Kang.

290. TUP - May 15, 2014

Id like to see Kirk knock up Carol.

291. Jed - May 15, 2014

Best of luck Bob. I’m sure it will be the best trek yet!

292. Shatnerforthe50th - May 15, 2014

What I want to see is something epic, that spans the prime universe as well as the new one.

It’s the 50th anniversary. Bring in Shatner like you wanted in 2009. One final pairing of Shatner and Nimoy, like they brought in Tom Baker for the 50th of Doctor Who.

Use Doctor Who as a guide. They honored their anniversary brilliantly. I not only expect Trek to do as well, I expect them to top it.

You can do a run of the mill storyline at any time, but there’s only one 50th anniversary.

There can be no greater gift than Kirk Prime alive and well, and bringing Spock Prime home.

293. The Batman - May 15, 2014

I think it’s pretty clear that Paramount has lost its enthusiasm for and desire to support Trek. Giving a guy with zero directing experience the helm of the third film indicates that this is going to be the final film with this cast and crew.

*The regulars are doing well in other film roles and still have the now-preferable realm of high quality television to explore. While Pine and Saldana are busy with other franchises, the other guys will enjoy the freedom of taking on other projects.

*Into Darkness underperformed significantly enough for the studio to attempt to recoup some costs from that film and finish a trilogy, which was always the number discussed for these films.

*Orci getting the gig means this film will not be given the same attention the previous films were, nor the same budget. I have a feeling this movie will be more of a ship-based space film with less time spent on location or on expansive sets.

*The momentum gained from the first film was lost with the long gap between movies and the lackluster story, which critics derided along with fans.

This is great news for the future of Trek. While it will be hard to see Trek go away again, my feeling is that someone at CBS and/or Paramount will look at these three films and realize that the future of Trek is in television. There’s less money to be spent and more money to be made in producing a new series, especially if it’s made in the contemporary vein of short seasons of episodes that are crafted with quality and care.

A new series on a cable network (Viacom owns a few) would allow Trek to return to compelling storytelling, characterization, exploration, and yes, action and adventure.

The world of entertainment has changed dramatically even in the time since the first Abrams Trek film. Film is no longer the gold standard it once was, and CBS Paramount/Viacom has to see that they could invest less and make more with a quality TV series instead of three distantly-spaced films that cost loads more to make. The marketing of one Abrams Trek film alone could finance three or so seasons of a new Trek show.

294. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

Bob Orci:

The first two movies were great, in my humble opinion. But I’d like to chime in on the Enterprise again. The Big-E is the most iconic spaceship in history. They even have the TOS filming model at The National Air & Space Museum in Washington D.C. Give the Enterprise some love by showing off those gorgeous sets (except ugly brewery) along with the exterior. I can’t take it all in when the shots are 5 to 10 seconds.

“These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise” – – the Big-E deserves more screen time….BUT….don’t go overboard by duplicating long shots in The Motion Picture because that put the audience to sleep. Although if you do the long shots like Gravity then that would be way-cool. Gravity built up the suspense in a very effective way….including the music and sound effects.

Have fun, Bob!

295. Ralph Pinheiro - May 15, 2014

Congrats, Mr. Orci. I hope it works.

I just wanted to let you know how much many of us appreciate your commitment, and courage in to be the director of ST3.
I am certain that this work will be very fruitful,
You are highly qualified and enthusiastic and will benefit from yuor knowledge and experience in Star Trek.

Star Trek was a good and interesting film, but I always felt some frustration watching STID as it had leave me feeling that “there was just something missing” about it.

I miss old aliens: Andorians, Tellarites, vulcans, Orion Syndicate, gorns.
I miss star trek´s adventures.
I miss Kirk, Spock, McCoy.
I miss old characters: Harry Mudd, Chapel, Guinan, Janice Rand, Gary Mitchell, “Keras,” the Romulan Commander from Balance of Terror., Lieutenant Kyle…
I miss the spirit of Star Trek.

296. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

291. The Batman

Here we go again. Define “underperformed significantly” because I thought STID became the #1 box office compared to all the other Trek movies (adjusted for inflation). Also STID has a 87% critic rating on RT. Those are the facts. Perhaps you meant to say underformed in the USA market…but I still wouldn’t say it was significant. You must include worldwide box office when analyzing movies.

I’m with you regarding a TV series. I think there is a long range plan to launch a new TV series. I hope so because Trek can live up to its full potential on TV. They could save money by using the nuTrek sets and VFX models.

297. Luke Montgomery - May 15, 2014

Go Roberto!

You are the best thing to happen to Trek in decades and have the detailed insight and passion to make great things happen some more like you already have! Do not listen to the nobody’s nothings commenting and naysaying on this page who are just frustrated that their jobs serving fries at Arby’s are as dead-end as their nasty comments are.

298. Clinton - May 15, 2014

I skipped through all the comments, to simply say “Good Luck, Bob!” Looking forward to our 50th Anniversary Trek!

299. Bill Peters - May 15, 2014

Boborci, Congrats and I hope that what you do not only leads to new Trek after the 50th but gives you a chance to Continue with Trek for a long time and allows you to Direct other things as well.

300. Kraten - May 15, 2014

Congratulation Sir, Looking forward to the outcome, well deserved .

301. Trekboi - May 15, 2014

Maybe The title of the next film could be STAR TREK: REDUCTIVE
Co-directed by Lady Gaga?

302. Spike - May 15, 2014

Star Trek in the hands of a real Star Trek fan, this can only be a good thing,I could not be happier.

303. Marja - May 15, 2014

248 Timncc, It’s not a timeline, it’s a separate universe. So “correcting the timeline” makes little sense.

Plus it makes no dramatic sense. They created a “universe” and should stick to it for the sake of narrative freedom and honoring the character arcs of AltKirk and co.

Or do you want to see a re-creation of every TOS episode, just with the new cast?

304. Silvereyes - May 15, 2014

Bob, I trust you have made yourself aware of the reasons why some people didn’t like STID too much, as many of the same reasons keep coming back. This should give you insight as to what to avoid and what to concentrate on…

I have stated before that I don’t think using someone who has never directed before is a good choice, especially since I’m one of those people who is not a fan of STID (so-so on ST09), but if the choice has been made and you are Paramount’s choice, then I wish you luck.

305. Trekboi - May 15, 2014

Dion1701 – Forget something? like Inflation?

Star Trek TMP & ST IV made around the same as ST 09 at the US Box Office

Rank Title Adjusted Gross Unadjusted Gross Release
1 Star Trek $275,002,200 $257,730,019 5/8/09
2 Star Trek I $260,867,500 $82,258,456 12/7/79
3 Star Trek IV $229,804,900 $109,713,132 11/26/86
4 Star Trek ID $217,312,400 $228,778,661 5/16/13
5 Star Trek II $213,655,500 $78,912,963 6/4/82
6 Star Trek III $181,163,600 $76,471,046 6/1/84
7 Star Trek FC $165,101,400 $92,027,888 11/22/96
8 Star Trek Gen $143,641,000 $75,671,125 11/18/94
9 Star Trek VI $142,450,100 $74,888,996 12/6/91
10 Star Trek Ins $117,001,600 $70,187,658 12/11/98
11 Star Trek V $104,683,100 $52,210,049 6/9/89
12 Star Trek Nem $58,587,900 $43,254,409 12/13/02

TOTAL: $2,109,271,100 $1,242,104,402 –
AVERAGE: $175,772,600 $103,508,700 -

306. Curious Cadet - May 15, 2014

@296. Mike Barnett,
“Perhaps you meant to say underformed in the USA market…but I still wouldn’t say it was significant.”

Admitting STID significantly underperformed in the US, does not undermine the entire movie, which overall performed very well.

And yes, it significantly underperformed. I don’t know about you but $30 million dollars is not minor ($52 million in adjusted dollars). That can easily mean the difference between recouping a film and making a profit at all.

$229 million is an excellent domestic box office, but not when contemplating a $190 million budget. It means domestic viewership was way down over ST09, and is even worse because a substantial portion of that box office was higher 3D and IMAX revenue — the whole reason studios produce movies for those formats is to increase the box office. And what if STID had only made the same amount as ST09 internationally? The film would have only cleared $357 million, which probably wouldn’t have recouped its budget at the box office (though ancillary markets most certainly would have), and the general feeling about STID wouldn’t likely be so rosy now.

Now, the reasons why the domestic box office was lower most likely has nothing to do with the script, but that can’t be discounted. So, why can’t we discuss this like reasonable adults? The facts are facts. Both sides of this debate need to acknowledge the domestic failure for what it is and stop tying it to specific criticisms of the film for which there simply is no evidence, and likewise for using the films financial success to justify its creative greatness.

307. Marja - May 15, 2014

257 Finnigan, The point, made several times above your post, is that Paramount wants to make great profits off this movie. Paramount couldn’t give a care about the old, original fans. Money talks in the movie industry. As long as they’re producing films they will want to recoup their investment several times over.

The happiness of Trekfans [as opposed to general audiences] is up to Bob Orci now. If he can meld the two, attracting a general audience to a movie that will greatly please us, so much the better. Don’t hold your breath for old-style Trek; even if it gets back onto TV I doubt it will resemble what it used to be. Ever.
—————————————————————————————————–
271 Duncan, LOL
Even though I don’t always agree with you I can appreciate a demmed good cynical joke …
——————————————————————————————————-
279 James, I SECOND THAT.
– No big black ships, no crazy villains
– No space dives
– Having Kirk hanging from something is okay, but can we keep it to once per film?
– Same goes for “Enterprise rising” — it got old by the end of STiD. And a shame too, b/c it’s a beauty shot.
——————————————————————————————————
HERE’S SOMETHING I’D LIKE TO SEE, Spock and Uhura in their quarters, doing plot exposition over dinner. Or waking up responding to Red Alert.

And hey, I’m okay with women in their underwear as long as the men in the same scene are in their underwear too. EQUAL TIME EYE CANDY, Bob ;-) We ladies like to see some handsome males. And some of us even like to see them in romantic [not mere sexual] encounters with ladies.

I love the super-accomplished ladies in Bob Orci’s movies. Just please SPOILER don’t kill any off as happened to poor SPOILER at the end of ASM2.
——————————————————————————————————-
282 Janice, YES I COULDN’T AGREE MORE. Greenwood was such a lovely addition to NuTrek, I would love to see him “return from the dead” [it's Trek, it's been done before, God knows]. And who’s to say Pike didn’t get some Khan blood derivative from McCoy’s stock? BWAHahahaha

308. Trekboi - May 15, 2014

(my Spacing didn’t send through properly)

Dion1701 – Forget something? like Inflation?

Star Trek TMP & ST IV made around the same as ST 09 at the US Box Office

Rank Title Adjusted Gross Unadjusted Gross Release

1 Star Trek – $275,002,200 – $257,730,019 – 5/8/09
2 Star Trek I – $260,867,500 – $82,258,456 – 12/7/79
3 Star Trek IV – $229,804,900 – $109,713,132 – 11/26/86
4 Star Trek ID – $217,312,400 – $228,778,661 – 5/16/13
5 Star Trek II – $213,655,500 – $78,912,963 – 6/4/82
6 Star Trek III – $181,163,600 – $76,471,046 – 6/1/84
7 Star Trek FC – $165,101,400 – $92,027,888 – 11/22/96
8 Star Trek Gen – $143,641,000 – $75,671,125 – 11/18/94
9 Star Trek VI – $142,450,100 – $74,888,996 – 12/6/91
10 Star Trek Ins – $117,001,600 – $70,187,658 – 12/11/98
11 Star Trek V – $104,683,100 – $52,210,049 – 6/9/89
12 Star Trek Nem – $58,587,900 – $43,254,409 – 12/13/02

TOTAL: $2,109,271,100 – $1,242,104,402
AVERAGE: $175,772,600 – $103,508,700

309. Red Dead Ryan - May 15, 2014

#291. The Batman

“*The momentum gained from the first film was lost with the long gap between movies and the lackluster story, which critics derided along with fans.

This is great news for the future of Trek. While it will be hard to see Trek go away again, my feeling is that someone at CBS and/or Paramount will look at these three films and realize that the future of Trek is in television. There’s less money to be spent and more money to be made in producing a new series, especially if it’s made in the contemporary vein of short seasons of episodes that are crafted with quality and care.”

NOPE! These movies are all that we’re going to get for the foreseeable future. The BR movies are where it’s at now, and if you don’t like it, too bad. There will be no new television series for at least several years, and I doubt Paramount is interested in going back to the prime universe.

Paramount will simply replace the current cast when their time to move on has come, and we’ll still be seeing the same characters in the same universe, continuing on.

They sure as hell aren’t going to change the recipe now that it is proven popular among the patrons.

310. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

309. Red Dead Ryan

“Paramount will simply replace the current cast when their time to move on has come, and we’ll still be seeing the same characters in the same universe, continuing on.”

I agree. Just look at how they do that in other franchises (Batman, James Bond, etc.).

311. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

308. Trekboi

Any chance you could get the same data must use worldwide $$?

312. William Bradley - May 15, 2014

It should be obvious that Paramount has no particular plan for managing the Star Trek franchise, hence the departure of Abrams and the last minute pick of Bob Orci as a first time director.

Just as it became obvious it has no particular plan for managing the Jack Ryan enterprise.

So you’re indulging in spin as speculation.

Meanwhile, the Terminator reboot is already shooting.

313. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

I meant to say:
Any chance you could get the same data using worldwide $$?

I guess I should start multitasking because I’ve had a couple errors in today’s comments.

314. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

Dang it!!!

Should be: I guess I should stop multitasking because I’ve had a couple errors in today’s comments.

Time to take a nap or something…..

315. The Batman - May 15, 2014

Righhht…they’re going to recast these roles after the diminishing returns only continue with whatever Star Trek 3 manages to do.

Those of you who think movies are the future or will continue to be the focus of current Trek are in serious denial. It’s no longer 1996 or even 2009. The era of film franchises is going by the wayside. Sure, there are successes like the Marvel films and a few other franchises, but watch carefully when Marvel’s Netflix shows manage to succeed. The new media we’ve seen emerge in just the last decade is leading to a paradigm shift in storytelling and in the way in which audiences get those stories.

I’m not saying film is dead by any means. As a vehicle for a franchise that is already tired (say what you will about Trek 09 and Into Darkness, they did not resurrect Trek the way many hoped) film is an inexpensive and shortsighted narrative venue. Ron Moore made this point with his fairly recent comments on Trek:

“I think its home and its heart is really in television. That’s really what Star Trek is – the core concept is really a TV show…I think the features are good and I really admire what JJ Abrams has done with the last two films – I think it’s great – but the heart and soul of that franchise demands a return to television.

The kinds of stories that you’ll tell in the features space are not the kinds of stories that made that show so popular. The features all have to be action-oriented. They all have to have enormous stakes – the Earth or the Federation or the universe has to be in jeopardy – and the features always have to surround the Captain…and maybe one other character.

The TV shows were morality plays, they were more thematic, they were examining society in different ways. Sometimes the stakes were just one crew member’s life, sometimes the stakes were just one alien world or the Enterprise. You could do a story that was just about Data (Brent Spiner) or a story that was just about McCoy (DeForest Kelley) or about the characters who lived below decks on the Enterprise.

The TV show is really what Star Trek is to me. I think the features are great, but I think it has to return to TV if it’s going to remain an ongoing franchise.”

He’s absolutely right. There is NO long-term future for Trek in films. Once a Trek film fails at the BO and critically (which STID came close to doing) that will be the end of Trek movies. To believe otherwise is ignorant delusion.

Viacom may not be run by Trek fans like us, but they are intelligent people nonetheless. They (along with the rest of Hollywood) see the writing on the wall with regards to long-term franchising. If we were talking about Star Wars, which has always managed to remain relevant even when it went away for a significant amount of time, then film would be a viable franchise option. But much of Star Wars success in the last decade has come from TV (Clone Wars) and will continue to come from TV (Rebels.) Episode VII and the solo SW films outside the trilogies are just part of a larger whole now.

The same has to happen to Trek. I would bet good money we’ll see a new and very different Trek (different in terms of presentation, narrative, and production) in the next five years. That series will perform better in the long term (assuming it has the right creators/producers at the helm) than a series of far too brief and narratively narrow films in the same amount of time.

The audience today is savvy enough to accept a new Trek series with a different setting than Trek films. Let the momentum and buzz of a new and successful Trek series lead to new Trek films unrelated to the series outside of the setting of the final frontier.

Trek will never return to its past glory if it doesn’t embrace the new paradigm that has emerged in the last five or so years. Focused storytelling in brief seasons that put quality over quantity and offer audiences irresistible characters, stories, and heart. If a series about reanimated cannibalistic corpses and another about a high school teacher turned drug lord can succeed with the same approach if not the same stories or genres, than so too can Trek.

316. Phil - May 15, 2014

@312. Yep, and we’ve already been treated to the spectacle of Arnold explaining why it’s perfectly acceptable that his robot has gone soft and flabby. Considering Arnolds last three movies cratered, people who are predicting franchise failure are looking at the wrong franchise – it’s Terminator that’s going up in flames, not Trek.

317. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

#278 Marja – I give BIG ticks to every one of your suggestions on your Wish List. Yes, indeed. Bob O – The word…is given!

#281 – “Maybe you could get a T-shirt with “All hollow are the Ori” (sorry Orci) it fits in with the theme that some ST fans have that the writers directors and producers etc are their to be worshiped admired and are above being criticised.”

Maybe you could get a T-shirt with “All hollow and deceitful is Son of Jello”. How about that? If Bob Orci has read any of my posts to this site over time, he will know what I deem to be problems with the first two Star Trek movies. I have explained the reasons for my complaints on more than one occasion. Whether he agrees or has paid much attention, I cannot say, but then again, no one here can necessarily know that either. We just assume that since Bob contributes here that he is cognizant of the various viewpoints being expressed here, including mine which have, at times, been critical.

I am sick of you continually appearing to misunderstand and misrepresent posters like myself. You are a liar and an idiot…:(

The only thing I agree with about is that conversation with you is at a dead end!

318. Dom - May 15, 2014

Congratulations Mr Orci.

Given his love of the original Star Trek, I hope this film can stand alone, so references to other Trek movies and TV shows can be minimised. Just give us the ultimate big budget expansion of a Star Trek episode that could have been made in the 60s if they’d had the budget!

Good luck. :)

319. Thor - May 15, 2014

Why ‘Star Trek’ fans are upset that Roberto Orci will direct ‘Star Trek 3′ (from EW.com)

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/05/14/star-trek-3-orci-directing-rage/

320. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

They should attach a release date with the official Orci announcement.

321. boborci is a bad director - May 15, 2014

Pretty much guarantees I won’t be seeing it. RIP, Star Trek.

322. dmduncan - May 15, 2014

Special request for what i do NOT want to see in next movie:

Spock walks toward camera with fashionable nonchalance while an explosion that he sets goes off behind him which he doesn’t turn to look at.

323. TheFoeYouKnow - May 15, 2014

I want a reset button movie. The reset button is a staple of Trek story telling, and I want it. Somebody fights to and succeeds in restoring the prime timeline. Done and done, time to make some TV again.

324. MelyBelle - May 15, 2014

Congrats, Mr Orci!

As for me, I would love to see Ben Cross’ Sarek back in some fashion. Pretty, pretty please?

325. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

321. TheFoeYouKnow

I vote NO on going back to the prime universe. That universe is all played out because they made 10 movies to go along with 30 seasons of TV shows (including the animation series). Leave the prime universe for fan fiction, books and comics.

326. Chris Roberts - May 15, 2014

I wouldn’t be averse to a return to the prime universe. Got to be a good story though.

I’d pitch something heavily influenced by “Yesterday’s Enterprise”. Federation on the verge of collapse. The destruction of U.S.S. Kelvin as the focal point of history, where everything took a left turn.

327. Chris Roberts - May 15, 2014

I don’t think such a film precludes Pine, Quinto, Urban suddenly not being in a 4th film either. You just open the door for a universe wide redesign, that’s even more TOS reminiscent. Given their ages, it’d be set between TMP and TWOK during the second 5 year mission anyway.

328. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

There is nothing to restore. Why can’t people get that into their heads? What is so hard to understand? BR Star Trek – dumbed down? No way! It is so many in the audiences who are just too dumb to understand the concepts put forward in these two movies.

I am feeling grumpy again…

You know what the real problem that people like Son of Jello (and others) have is with people like me – It is not that I don’t see and explain what I think is wrong with aspects of ST09 and STID (because I have). The real issue is that I don’t see the problems that others have with these movies as being silly or problematical for me. Therefore, I am called a “worshipper of these writers, directors, producers…” because I don’t agree that the problems that others have are the same ones that I have. Not only that, they lie about me.

No – I don’t have a problem with the concept of portable transwarp beaming technology. I see its development as being one logical outcome of the equation that Scotty solved.

No – I don’t have a problem with the notion of “magic blood”. In reality, the term “magic” blood was never used in the film. Dr McCoy queried if this Harrison guy might not be some kind of superman.

Much later in the film, Dr McCoy referred to Khan’s “superblood” when he JOKED/quipped to James Kirk, just after regaining consciousness, asking Kirk if he felt despotic, power hungry – words like that. Dr McCoy was also diagnosing Kirk’s higher mental faculties and Kirk satisfied him with the wry reply, “No more than usual” – again a quip in response to a quip.

AFAIK, it is the d*ckheads among (papz) critics and viewers who came up the with the term “magic” blood and since then have got themselves totally knotted up over the whole issue.

If people are going to talk about magic – Well – Blood is not called “LIFE blood” for nothing. Also, there is still so much that is not known about the workings of blood, whether it be found in warm blooded creatures like humans or in cold blooded creatures. Blood is a kind of magic and always has been. All I see is that this Harrison/Khan’s blood is made of a slightly different kind of magic.

@Matt Wright – I am sorry about the contentious language but sometimes that is the only way to express things.

329. Bill Peters - May 15, 2014

I could see going back to the Prime Universe for a Mini-Series but the future of Trek is in the JJ Verse beyond a Mini-Series.

also 315 The Batman, while you points about Star Wars being on TV and Doing well there are Vaild, you Fail to mention that Star Wars the Clone Wars was only on Cartoon Network then the 5th Season on Netflix and now Star Wars Rebels will be on Disney XD, both Cable Operations, CBS has never been willing to run Trek on a Cable Network or the CW or any other Network that CBS doesn’t own.

I do think Trek can get to high days again on TV and in the Movies, I think that we have a chance for Star Trek 2016 to be the Skyfall of the Trek Universe and open up for more Films.

330. Bill Peters - May 15, 2014

Red Dead you been cool to me scene we first meet on this site way back before 09 came out…:) Live Long and Prosper my Friend.

331. Phil - May 15, 2014

Don’t need to see the prime universe in theaters again. Mini-series or made-for-tv movie would be fine….as long as they are exploring new territory. Fifty years of the ‘captain and crew’ format is enough.

332. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 15, 2014

I will be waiting for the next Trek with a renewed sense of wonder.

Considering the failure of many recent hollyweird tent-poles (STiD, Man of Steel, ASM2) I am really excited that Bob O has this opportunity.

He’s been part of some of those productions and I think he may be in a great spot to understand fully what decisions made such films terrible disaters. I am still hoping that he can craft a good tale while still providing all the sophisticated nuances that are important for a movie to become a true blockbuster. Including the score, fx, acting performances while bringing it in under budget.

I am willing to give Bob O a chance, and, I am expecting a very good Trek.
Does’nt have to be perfect, although I’d love that, but I am expecting a movie without ANY plotholes.

You have at least a year to fix those. Hopefully they are hard at work now and not reading TrekMovie! : 0 : )

333. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@ 328. Phil – May 15, 2014

“Fifty years of the ‘captain and crew’ format is enough.”

Agreed, they should ends Star Trek 13 with the entire crew dead & move on to a new format in the following movie.

334. Phil - May 15, 2014

@329. Come on, man, pulling out of your @$$ that STID, Man of Steel, and ASM2 are TERRIBLE DISASTERS is just off the charts stupid. Or are you chiming in on the notion that the only reason these films make money is because of the illiterate foreign audience, too….

335. Phil - May 15, 2014

@330. Nah, captain and crew works fine in theaters…

336. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@ 332. Phil – May 15, 2014

“@330. Nah, captain and crew works fine in theaters…”

oh I see, as long as it is NOT in the prime universe, then it is OK to keep doing the same old stuff over & over & over & over & over.

That must be Nu-Trek logic !!!

337. Curious Cadet - May 15, 2014

@310. Mike Barnett,
“I agree. Just look at how they do that in other franchises (Batman, James Bond, etc.).”

But this is NOT what happens in those movies.

Studios don’t “simply replace the current cast when their time to move on has come, and we’ll still be seeing the same characters in the same universe, continuing on.”

They reboot the movies around the new Batman, or Bond. For starters, Batman wore a mask, so in the 80s and 90s there wasn’t much to forgive. However, When they re-cast Christian Bale, we got a brand new origin story. They’re doing the same now with Spiderman. They did it three times with the Hulk. When they re-cast Daniel Craig, they re-booted Bond, and gave us a prequel origin story, completely redefining the character.

And that is what will happen here as well. They will replace the actors, and in all likelihood reboot the franchise, whether they give us a new origin story or not. Just put them in the same red, blue and gold uniforms, similar looking ship, and a guy with pointed ears, and the audiences who are making Star Trek a hit now, will continue to recognize it as the same thing. It will not be Abrams universe, it won’t be the Prime universe, it will be something new, and Kirk will be however the new director wants him to be, unencumbered by the baggage Orci and Abrams have heaped on him. Because that is what happens to franchises in 21st century Hollywood.

338. HubcapDave - May 15, 2014

So, after reading through the comments, it seems Bob Orci is the Star Trek equivalent of John Cena. All this back and forth would be easier if we all sat in and arena and chanted back and forth “Let’s go Orci!”, “Orci sucks!”

Speaking of wrestling and Star Trek, I just had an idea to cast Dwayne Johnson in his “The Rock” persona as Captain Kirk.

I could just see it now: “FINALLY! After five long years, Captain Kirk HAS COME BACK TO STARFLEET COM-MAND!”

“What is your name?”

“My name is Kha..”

“IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS!”

But I digress….I wonder if boborci will have time for us now with his new job…

339. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

334. Curious Cadet

Gotcha. That makes sense.

340. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

#333 What? Are you kidding?

“Space – the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise… boldly going where no man, no one, has gone before”.

What do you think the Starship Enterprise is and who do you think are boldly going?

Answer – The captain and crew on the Starship Enterprise.

We like the TOS format – captain and crew on the Enterprise exploring etc. TNG had it, VOY had it, and ENT had it. DS9 did not but found that it needed Commander Sisko to become Captain of the ship Defiant, following by Worf being commander?/captain? of the space going ship Defiant.

I voiced some time back a notion that nuKirk be TEMPORARILY (look up the word – IDIC, it seems, did not fathom the meaning of the word “temporarily”) reassigned to be commander of a planetary research station with Carol (possibly with wee one in tow) or, for an even shorter period, Kirk having to take over the administration of a new space station (with or without Carol – no baby).
The result on this site – I had truck loads of dinodung chucked at me by posters like IDIC, at the merest suggestion…:(

Ahmed, you may moan about what you see/fear as the same old, same old being told. If indeed, the same old does end getting told, many of *fan* like IDIC and others, have only themselves to blame. No, this is Prime or Old-Trek logic!!!

Are not Ahmed and TrekMadeMeWonder the same poster?…hmmm

341. Hugh Hoyland - May 15, 2014

You know with Bob getting this gig Im starting to think the studio doesnt think I can direct a Star Trek movie. I’ve been “lobbying” since 2010 to get the chance! :)

342. Hugh Hoyland - May 15, 2014

Hey Bob you may be around later. Can you fill us all in on what your plans are? Not story wise but visually, whats this film going to look like? I demand an answer! (not that I’ll get one) :)

343. boborci is a bad director - May 15, 2014

I guess dissenting opinions aren’t allowed here on TrekMovie.com. So allow me to rephrase my earlier comment which was deleted:

I am *so* happy Bob Orci is directing this film! I’ll definitely be the first in line when it comes out!

/s

344. Mike Barnett - May 15, 2014

It would be fun if Bob gave us (Trekmovie.com) an exclusive bit of news before the mainstream media get. Like release date, budget, filming location or a hint on the plot.

345. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@336. Keachick (Rose)

I was responding to Phil who said that “Fifty years of the ‘captain and crew’ format is enough.”. He stated later that this apply only to the prime universe, hence my second reply to him about Nu-Trek logic.

“Are not Ahmed and TrekMadeMeWonder the same poster?…hmmm”

Nope, we are not the same poster. Are you getting paranoid or what ?

346. Trekbilly - May 15, 2014

I think this cast was only signed for three films, right? So no matter how you slice it, this could be the last BR Trek film. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken…

347. captainspock - May 15, 2014

Why some star trek fans are upset that bob orci is directing trek3
(from E.W.com)
http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/05/14/star-trek-3-orci-directing-rage/

well i’m on several trek sites & alot of the feeling is mixed about bob directing trek 3, Captain Spock said good luck bob & congratulation on getting the job . Make it so!

348. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

#340 – I thought I had read on this site, a while back, that Ahmed and TrekMadeMeWonder were one and the same person. No, I am not getting paranoid, just enquiring as to whether my information is correct. Obviously, it is not.

#341 – Yes, Bad Robot, along with the main cast, are contracted to make three Star Trek movies. However, this does not necessarily mean that they might not make more after. Whether they make a fourth, fifth, whatever will depend on various factors.

349. Dom - May 15, 2014

Congrats Mr. Orci! Glad to hear you are taking the reins!

350. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@ 343. Keachick (Rose) – May 15, 2014

If the 3rd movie is a hit at the box office, I’ve no doubts that they will make a fourth one with the current cast.

They are still young, as well as cheap as The Hollywood Reporter article about Pine shows:

“Pine’s Trek deal gives Paramount an option on him for three films. His pay for the first Trek isn’t listed but the deal allegedly gives him $1.5 million plus up to $500,000 in backend compensation for the second film (which is currently in pre-production) and $3 million plus the $500,000 in backend for a third film, if it happens. He also gets 5 percent of net merchadising revenue from the exploitation of his name and likeness.”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/chris-pine-sued-this-means-war-star-trek-290478

351. Phil - May 15, 2014

@345. Sorry to hear the merchandising end of the deal didn’t pan out…

352. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 15, 2014

343. Keachick

You are in error. Sanitize. Sanitize. Sanitize.

Keachick. What do you want? A formal coming out? BTW. Harry Ballz and I go way back here. He can vouch for me. RIght, Harry? : )

BTW, I live in Pittsburgh – U S A.

353. Phil - May 15, 2014

@333. Since you brought it up, then go ahead – explain why we need more Nemesis in the theaters. This should be amusing. Bad Robot has had a decent run with visiting the early years, a new look at an old classic, if you will, so let it run a bit. There are plenty of venues out there, so what’s the problem with old Trek on TV?

There seems to be no pleasing some people….

354. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 15, 2014

And BTW, If you are interested. You can see my white shirt shoulder behind Gotham’s Mayor in the last Dark Knight. Its in the trailer, too! HA! Just one of my connections to the big screen.

My casting sheet even said Mayor’s Staff – Gotham’s CFO!

THere is more, but I hope that’s enough for you, for now, Keachick.

Now. It’s your turn! : )

355. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@348. Phil

Obviously no one wants more Nemesis.

BR will continues doing more Trek movies in the Alt-timeline, I don’t have a problem with that anymore. But why should we limit ourselves to just that?

Paramount should follows in the steps of Marvel & Lucasfilms & come up with spin-off movies set in the big Star Trek universe with different formats.

356. Marja - May 15, 2014

309 Red Dead Ryan “Paramount will simply replace the current cast when their time to move on has come”

SAY IT AIN’T SO! I want to watch Quinto as Spock until he’s 65 years old! [snicker]
Though I would like to watch him for the next six years or so. Along with Pine, Urban, Saldana, Pegg, Cho and Yelchin, as their respective characters. Some people will say what they will, I think these movies were admirably cast.
——————————————————————————————-
320 Duncan, Just for you, man [note soloist at 1:20]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqz5dbs5zmo
I know, you’ve probs seen it, but just to share with the whole class.
——————————————————————————————-
322 Mike Barnett, THANK YOU. I like the idea of a NuVerse with new Federation realities, diplomacy, threats, situations and … wait for it … the crew of Enterprise seeking out new worlds and new civilizations !
——————————————————————————————-
325 Rose, Some use “magic” blood disparagingly, I use it as shorthand. yes, it was a deus ex machinaafter Kirk’s death to “magically” revive him [and some felt that was a cheat to do it a few minutes after the character's moving death]. But it somewhat scientifically based, in that new discoveries happen with genetic technology all the time. So I’m not averse to its being used. It does introduce some problems in that universe, however. UNLESS McCoy or Section 31 or someone covers up the fact that it exists, it could Fall into The Wrong Hands. Then what? Is what they all want to know. As far as the portable transwarp device “making starships obsolete,” I and others have debunked that idea. To me it’s like equating someone flying a jet solo to someone commanding an aircraft carrier or a hospital ship. But never mind, I guess we all have our special drums to beat.
————————————————————————————————–
327 Bill Peters, Ah, if only Trek will get the same kind of worshipful coverage the Bond “Skyfall” did. Instead we’ll probably get an earful about geeks and nerds instead of how devastatingly handsome Pine and Quinto are, how beautifully their surroundings are designed and filmed, the beautiful “Spock ‘girl'” or “Kirk ‘girl'” and, oh, IDK, an appearance at the 2016 Olympic Games, for crissakes … Maybe the President of Brazil will agree to be “beamed up” or something. I’m still agape at the idea of the Queen and Daniel Craig playing Bond! whut !

For that matter it’ll be all “geeks and nerds” instead of how many astronauts, scientists, engineers, designers, web gurus, actors, and more were positively influenced by Trek. I’ve never heard that about Bond, but perhaps applications to MI-6 jump every time a Bond movie comes out.
————————————————————————————-
330 Jaysis, Ahmed, I hope that was a joke. I love the new crew. Plots and story consistency could def be improved but I love those actors.

And no, Ahmed, the point is NOT to tell the same stories over and over. At least as far as I know. Khan was a MISSTEP of the highest order, but the whole idea of an AU was, I thought, to allow a whole different Star Trek universe to evolve. [I STILL wish Cumby had been hired to play Captain Garth, angered by the machinations of Section 31, and fighting to get "his" (good) Starfleet back.]
————————————————————————————–
336 Rose, I used to think Herbert and TMMW were the same poster. As to that “other” poster, what can I say. I hope all that passionate energy is being devoted to a real-world issue.
————————————————————————————–
341 Trekbilly, Yeah, most were contracted for three films. There was a debate here a while back about whether Pine had signed for three or four; Greenwood was signed for two [which makes me sad, I'd like to see him again as Pike].

But for the Big Seven, the Trek films can be — as British actors say — “bread and butter films” which they appear in so they can finance other productions [Quinto: "Margin Call"] , or a certain lifestyle [Pine, contributing to charity], or star in independent movies or on stage [Quinto and Pine]. I’m sure [based on her high-grossing movies] Zoe Saldana and her heirs/heiresses will be living well for many years, and probably engaging in worthy causes. I imagine Karl Urban will too, on a smaller scale. I can definitely see him supporting Surfrider Foundation or a similar marine conservation cause.

357. Red Dead Ryan - May 15, 2014

TrekMadeMeWonder = That Other Guy.

As I said earlier, there will be no new Trek series for a long time. All we’re going to get are movies. And Bad Robot is the current production team.

If you don’t like it, fine. But don’t expect any alternative source for live-action filmed Trek (or cartoons for that matter). You’re going to have to satisfy yourselves with tv reruns, dvds/blu rays, comics, and novels.

It’s the BR movies, or nothing at all. Just that simple.

358. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@351. Marja

“330 Jaysis, Ahmed, I hope that was a joke. I love the new crew. Plots and story consistency could def be improved but I love those actors.”

That was a joke :) I like the new cast too, specially Urban, Quinto & Greenwood.

“And no, Ahmed, the point is NOT to tell the same stories over and over. At least as far as I know. Khan was a MISSTEP of the highest order, but the whole idea of an AU was, I thought, to allow a whole different Star Trek universe to evolve.”

And that was my problem with STID. I was looking forward to a fresh story in the new universe only to see them use an old villain for the 3rd bloody time.

Anyway, I hope that they will come up with something FRESH next time around, but my expectations are already low.

359. Harry Ballz - May 15, 2014

@347 TrekMadeMeWonder

“Harry Ballz and I go way back here. He can vouch for me. Right, Harry?”

Can I vouch for TMMW?

Well………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Nah, just kidding. I can vouch for TMMW, Keachick. We go WAY back!

He and I know where the bodies are buried. Funny, that’s usually just a metaphor.

Pittsburgh?

I spent a month in Pittsburgh once….August 1985. On business. Used to party at the bars down by the waterfront most nights. One bar encouraged the female patrons to ask male customers to dance by offering a grand prize of a tiny diamond ring to one lucky gal each night. The women asked every guy to dance, hoping to hit pay dirt. Good times.

You can learn a lot about a town when you spend a month there.

I remember Squirrel Hill as being a cute neighbourhood.

360. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@ 352. Red Dead Ryan – May 15, 2014

“It’s the BR movies, or nothing at all. Just that simple.”

No one said that BR movies should be limited to the adventures of Kirk & his crew, right ?

They should expand the franchise by releasing spin-off movies similar to what is happening with Marvel, Amazing Spider-Man & Star Wars movies.

361. Will - May 15, 2014

Great- a director who wants me to fuck off when I give reasons for not liking his writing.

362. Cygnus-X1 - May 15, 2014

260. Mike Barnett – May 14, 2014

Trek was DEAD before these guys updated it so that future generations can enjoy new adventures for another 50 years. Remember, you have 700+ hours of prime Trek to enjoy along with always improving fan fiction.

ENT was off the air for ONE YEAR (or less) before talks began with JJ Abrams to make ST09. So, please, let’s not pretend that Abrams and BR were some kind of saviors. And what they’re doing with the BR Trek movies is altering Trek’s brand and what Trek is going forward. Trek used to be a science fiction franchise. It’s not that anymore. When people talk about Trek going forward, they’re increasingly going to be thinking in terms of shallow action movies as opposed to thoughtful sci-fi movies.

363. OzK - May 15, 2014

If this is indeed a true report, then congratulations to Bob Orci. I hope you have a great time, tell the Trek story that makes your heart sing, and above all never ever let yourself be beaten down by the small minded, small spirited who congregate here. It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to be mean about it. So much spite, so much envy, so little generosity of spirit.

Go boldly, mate! And kick arse!

364. Mark James Tucker - May 15, 2014

It really shouldn’t surprise me that Rose is still acting the Know it All.
But I would have thought returning to the site after being gone a year she would have either been gone, or cleaned up her act.
Oh well at least MJ is long gone.

365. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

#351 – “SAY IT AIN’T SO! I want to watch Quinto as Spock…”

Yes, Yes, Yes, You got that right!
The thing is – lots of people love Kirk and his crew and that includes this nuKirk, Spock… I want to see more of these particular actors play those characters. I always thought that the casting for these BR movies was excellent and still do!

If Harry Ballz can vouch for TrekMadeMeWonder, then who am I to argue? Sorry about the mix up, TMMW and Ahmed!

I think that we may have already been a tiny clue about the next story in the article about the two new writers, Payne and McKay. It could be a story about exploring the real meaning of the Prime Directive and how it impacts on our protagonists – or not.

I just hope the story is not about war, either with Klingons, Romulans or anyone else. If there is a war, let it be far, far, far away from Kirk and crew and just something Kirk wishes he could lend a hand with, but can’t. What he is dealing with will be just as important, as in being morally defining, learning about forming good relationships, gaining of knowledge etc as any war. War is not only cruel and destructive, but really, really BORING…As far as I can see, most wars tend to be the result of lessons not properly learned and is dumb.

Let’s not be dumb!

366. Red Dead Ryan - May 15, 2014

“Star Trek” isn’t nearly as popular as the Marvel characters. Multiple Marvel movies can be released in the same year because there is a big enough fan base. The hardcores and casual fans, respectively.

On the other hand, “Star Trek” still relies considerably on the die hards (though the BR movies have increased the casual/new fan count immensely) who whine and complain about the smallest minutae.

No, one Trek film every 2-3 years will do fine, thank-you-very-much.

And btw, the “Amazing Spider-Man” movies were definitely less than amazing. Not sure it’s the right example to follow. No one was clamoring for a “Venom” movie, either.

367. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

#358 – So you are away for a year and the first thing you do on returning to this site is to criticize another poster.

What – you have no opinion on recent developments, like Bob Orci just been given the opportunity to direct the next Star Trek movie, the fact that two new young writers have presented a story that appear to have Bob inspired, along with his bosses…

Nice going – not…:(

Everyone’s a know-it-all, as far as they know how they feel and would like to have happen.

368. Ahmed - May 15, 2014

@360. Red Dead Ryan

“And btw, the “Amazing Spider-Man” movies were definitely less than amazing. Not sure it’s the right example to follow. No one was clamoring for a “Venom” movie, either.”

Regardless of what you think of ASM 2, the movie made a lot of money at the box office, in fact it made over $558 million so far.

And it is the right example since Bob is heavily involved with the expanding ASM franchise. Down the road, he may wants to try that approach with Star Trek.

369. Keachick (Rose) - May 15, 2014

Surely Bob Orci knows that the Spiderman franchise is different from the Star Trek franchise and is treating them accordingly?

Bob – thoughts?

370. Dswynne - May 15, 2014

While I think a tradition weekly series is no good, a cable-style format could work, which would prevent the monster-of-week syndrome from kicking it. Plus, it would allow the actors to do other things between seasons.

371. Son of Jello - May 15, 2014

Keachick (Rose)

Instead of getting angry and looking for ways to retaliate and working yourself up. Just take a deep breath and calmly read what has been written don’t just search thru post looking for something that’s make you angry and scratching around looking for something to take personally.

You fixate on such small issues (a word a lack of a ?) and ignore what was written and the context it was written in. Your always going to be angry Keachinik you don’t seem to want it any other way.

That’s what I mean by you being a dead end when it comes to communicating you don’t want to communicate you just want to look for reasons to become upset and opportunities to express anger an anger that I think is sometimes misdirected towards this sight and people who post on it.

372. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

I have re-read your post #75 which is what I was commenting on. I don’t know what other people think, but I found it to be stupid with all the no this and no that. I picked two examples to demonstrate this nonsense. Frankly, I don’t know what you are playing at, but I do know that past experience shows me that you love playing the ass card and that you dislike STID and the team who made the movie. You have not been backward about coming forward on that.

As far as expressing dislike, anger and stupidity, please do not discount your own contributions to this site in this regard.

373. Aurore - May 16, 2014

Why ‘Star Trek’ fans are upset that Roberto Orci will direct ‘Star Trek 3′

(Link if authorized, here) :

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/05/14/star-trek-3-orci-directing-rage/

“…Roberto Orci is one of those people who is simultaneously unknown and infamous. Why? Because: Internet etc, etc…”

“…Which means we probably have two years until we really see what a Roberto Orci Star Trek movie looks like — and two years of ambient skepticism or outright hostility about what a Roberto Orci Star Trek movie could be.”

______________

87. boborci – January 30, 2012

82. We dont pretend it never happened. We just know that only 3 percent of trek fans even post, and of that 3, less than half didn’t like uhura/spock, and the half of the three represents less than one percent of the general audience. Sorry.

http://trekmovie.com/2012/01/29/orci-explains-star-trek-sequel-script-polish-reveals-bit-on-time-passed-between-films/

….”Only 3 percent ” of Star Trek fans post.

[Or, at least, it seemed to be the case, at the time (according to Mr. Orci) .].

That is one of the reasons why, regarding the last two Star Trek movies I, personally , never considered what could be said on the Internet ( ” good ” or “bad ” ) , as an issue.

Moreover, being skeptical of Mr. Orci’s abilities to direct a movie can be done without hostility ; remaining civil while disagreeing is a… choice.

…As is focusing/writing articles/posts on the “one percent of interactions ” * which may occur online…sometimes…

:)

_______________

*

( Posts 1019 & 1028 ) :

http://trekmovie.com/2014/04/22/orci-and-kurtzman-to-end-film-partnership-orci-lobbying-to-direct-trek-3/#comments

________

P.S. : Star Trek ( 2009 ) revived my interest in the Star Trek franchise. And, years ago, reading a few negative reviews, articles etc, about it did not prevent me from enjoying the film… when I finally got a chance to watch it…

Today, I still consider it as an almost perfect film.

374. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

This article by Joseph Dickerson from last Sept is worth revisiting:

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/#more-36039

“When you now have two films that don’t live up to the basic premise of the concept… you have a problem.

Star Trek and other shows like it broke from that juvenile cycle and were adult stories targeted at intelligent viewers. Looking at Star Trek Into Darkness, one sees the same storytelling trend that other summer blockbusters are suffering from – an over reliance on action sequences and bombast, where visual effects supplant acting and story. It’s more like Space Cadet on the big screen than Star Trek.

(And the comments are great!)

375. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2014

@351. Marja,
“Though I would like to watch him for the next six years or so. Along with Pine, Urban, Saldana, Pegg, Cho and Yelchin, as their respective characters.”

You realize that’s just one more movie considering their average of 4 years between movies. If Orci gets his act together and the 3rd film is released on time and is a massive hit compared to the previous two movies, and they renegotiate with the cast who will all want a lot more money, and pay it … Then you might get a fourth movie in six years or so.

Of course if Star Trek is making that much money in six years, you might have a very hard time getting rid of the current cast considering how most of their careers have not exactly taken off. You might just have Quinto kicking around in 30 years in pointed ears … And Pine telling fans to “get a life” at conventions.

376. Durg Gross - May 16, 2014

They have been trying to KILL Star Trek for decades….I think they have finally served the franchise it’s final blow.

Here comes Mudd’s Women expanded to the big screen….man o man…at least he can copy the old 60’s script…add a few fillers and special effects.

377. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

368. Cygnus-X1
“This article by Joseph Dickerson from last Sept is worth revisiting”

Ugh. Why??

Per the site below, there were 553 hours of Star Trek before ST09 and STID:
http://star-trek.answers.wikia.com/wiki/How_long_would_it_take_to_watch_ALL_726_Star_Trek_episodes_AND_11_movies_back_to_back_nonstop

So one could score it this way:
Old-Trek 553 hrs.— Nu-Trek 4 hrs.

I would HATE to sit next to grumpy people that shake their heads and complain about almost every detail of the new movies. I am PO’d at superior intellectuals like Dickerson implying that I’m a slack-jawed juvenile that doesn’t get it….I’m not intelligent enough to realize nuTrek is not following the sacred mission statement (Space the final frontier…).

I do have enough intelligence to realize nuTrek is not your fathers Star Trek. But who cares? The father can enjoy 553 hours along with fan fiction. Let me enjoy the 4 hours of nuTrek without feeling like I’m betraying Trekdom. I love all the Trek TV/movies. A couple of my favorite movies are TMP and ST5 – and I think they are right up there with ST09 and STID.

Everybody knows what needs to be done. Have a theatrical movie every few years along with a TV series. The TV series can keep within the Trek mission statement while the movies can let loose a little bit and have fun by being a summer tent-pole movie. “The Best Of Both Worlds”

378. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 16, 2014

352. Red Dead Ryan – May 15, 2014

“It’s the BR movies, or nothing at all. Just that simple.”

I have no problem with the producers. Just their decisions.

I shamelessly cheer them on, but I do think there were serious deficiencies in the previous movie and ST09 did have its faults as well, Although of the two STiD was 200% better.

Despite what Benedict Cumberpatch would have you believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1FbAsEbdcE

I think its great that Bob O is at the helm. I really do. He has expressed his love for the original, again and again. I for one, am really pumped knowing that perhaps he will be taking the script home each night, and that he will not be treating this assignment as any typical 9 to 5 job. Hopefully his passion will result in a Star-studded 50th Anniversary EPIC Trek. (Title anyone?). Somehow some real buzz has to be started that will help kick off the excitement, Perhaps some sort of internet buzz could be created with a BIG name star being attached to Trek, or perhaps some extremely daring trek-styled marketing scheme. I don’t know. Perhaps the crew has to save the entire universe, or perhaps they have to even save God somehow! That couldn’t ever fail. Could it? : 0

But NO pressure, Bob. And no second guessing. That’s the hard part.

And, my best advice. Don’t be afraid to be a REAL dck on set to get exactly what you want – to the last detail. Seriously. Be a jerk if you have too. Demand a few extra takes on each shot, and do not tolerate anything less than perfection for any of your requests.

And if you find it in your ability as Director (and as a writer) to request that each cast member read an alternate line or two, that somehow is not related to the storyline, and you can sneak in a Star Trek 4 plotline at the same time you are filming ST3 – consider yourself officially encouraged and authorized as a representative from Trekkiedom to proceed with that plan.

And thanks, Harry!

Although, I am sure that no-one ever lies about being from Pittsburgh.

379. Cervantes - May 16, 2014

@ #370 Mike Barnett

553 hours of ‘old’ Trek in total to plough through eh?

Man, I’m so glad that I disregard every show and movie that came after the ‘Undiscovered Country’ as being just so much ‘Expanded Universe’ fan fiction set in an ‘alternate’ universe to the TOS one… :)

Looks like I dodged a bullet time-wise trying to keep up with anything outside of my own self-contained Trek ‘canon’!

380. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2014

@370 Mike Burnett,
“the movies can let loose a little bit and have fun by being a summer tent-pole movie. ”

I hear you. And I’m all for that. But whether now or in the future alongside a TV series, can’t we have fun Summer tentpole movie that respects the audience’s intelligence? Especially one as demanding as the Trek fan base?

Now this is only my opinion, but I don’t see that Orci has raised OR lowered the bar for Star Trek. He’s done the worst thing imaginable in that he left the bar exactly where the industry has currently placed it. STID was a very successful movie for Hollywood. But for Star Trek, it was no better or worse than anything that has come before it. And that’s the real legacy here. Yes this producing team revitalized the franchise like never before, and invited a brand new fan base, but they did it on Hollywood’s terms. As a writer, Orci has climbed onto the same well-worn saddle as all those who came before him, and let the well trained horse allow Orci to put it through its well rehearsed paces, delivering a performance indistinguishable from every other Summer tentpole at the box office.

People who defend the current franchise should be embarrassed to point to the nonsensical plot holes and other failings of previous Star Trek as an excuse for similar problems in the new movies. Now maybe Star Trek has to go through the homogenous Summer Blockbuster phase in order to recruit a wider paying audience that will sustain a more thoughtful, bar-raising movement for future films and/or TV, and there’s no augment that Orci is the guy for that. But let’s call a spade a spade. The faults are there, no better or worse than they have ever been. And the people who miss the old Kirk, Spock and Picard are always going to complain about that. But is it too much to ask that as long as we’re going down this current rabbit hole with Star Trek that we at least try to raise the bar a little over what has been done in the past and what Hollywood is currently doing in the present?

381. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 16, 2014

I shamelessly cheer them on, but I do think there were serious deficiencies in the previous movie and ST09 did have its faults as well, Although of the two STiD was 200% better.

Correction!!!

I shamelessly cheer them on, but I do think there were serious deficiencies in the previous movie and ST09 did have its faults as well, Although of the two ST09 was 200% better.

382. Gary 8.5 - May 16, 2014

I was wondering if that what you meant to say, thanks for the correction.!

383. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 16, 2014

Seriously.

384. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

@ 368. Cygnus-X1 – May 16, 2014

“This article by Joseph Dickerson from last Sept is worth revisiting:

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/#more-36039

(And the comments are great!)”

Speaking of the comments, a poster on reddit, crawlywhat, made this hilarious post:

“The Bajorans are, well, they’re like my children, I suppose. And like any father, I want only what’s best for them… Bad manners are the fault of the parent, not the child. My weakness is I’m too generous, too forgiving. My heart is too big.”

—Gul Dukat. (DS9 5×08 “things past”)

“I think the article above is akin to a child acting out against his parents. Makes it tough for some to listen, but since I am a loving parent, I read these comments without anger or resentment, no matter how misguided.”

—Roberto Orci

385. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

Now we know that Bob is a DS9 fan :)

386. VOODOO - May 16, 2014

Kind of off topic, but it makes me happy to know that the Millennium Falcon is flying over the skies of Abu Dhabi as we speak! Best of luck to J.J. Abrams and company as they relaunch Star Wars.

387. Ados - May 16, 2014

379.
Carrie Fisher lost 40 lbs for that film…

388. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

@379. VOODOO

I’m very excited as well, can’t wait for 2015.

389. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 16, 2014

Voodoo, now you can, too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fmItx0yV9s

390. Ryan Spooner - May 16, 2014

Congrats boborci, do us proud please :)

Also, please try and get back to some of the feel of the original movies. Like more long slow sweeping ship shots, and less of the hollywood-action-orientated fast moving shots we’ve had in the last couple of movies.

Star Trek is not just about the stories and characters, but the ships. Show more of the ships, both inside and out. The last two films feel like everybody is running everywhere, and you only see fleeting glimpses of things.

Even the USS Vengeance from the last movie… we never got a good look at it. Just some highly subjective shots, from stylized camera angles.

Thanks, that is all.

391. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

Interstellar – Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWdZVtXT7E

392. crazydaystrom - May 16, 2014

391. Ahmed

Interstellar – Trailer

Thanks Ahmed. I so want this to be great! Interstellar and Transcendence were my two most anticipated sf films of the year. I’ve still not seen Transcendence due to the pretty much universal bad reviews :-( Hopefully Nolan will satisfy.

393. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

==============================
George Takei’s take on net neutrality, Edward Snowden and the future of ‘Star Trek’

Washington Post: I don’t want to monopolize all your time. But before I let you go I want to ask you whether you think “Star Trek” could come back as a TV show. What would it look like? What would you want it to look like?

Takei : Well, the audience is obviously out there, which is demonstrated by the two rebooted movies. They were both enormously successful, and that’s why there’s going to be a third one. It’s not just the 50th anniversary [of "Star Trek"], but Paramount has pecuniary interests. They intend to make a profit on it. So I think there’s an audience for a television return for “Star Trek.”

Washington Post: In the rebooted universe, or the Prime universe?

Takei : I think in the Prime universe. Frankly, that’s the one I’m very comfortable with. And I find that more engaging, because you know, the rebooted one is essentially action-adventure and a terrific space opera. But what “Star Trek” did was, it used science fiction as a metaphor to comment on burning issues of the time. Certainly the times of the 1960s, but there are burning issues today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/05/16/george-takeis-take-on-net-neutrality-edward-snowden-and-the-future-of-star-trek/

394. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

Intersteller looks like the next great star trek ;-)
Can’t wait to see it!

395. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

@392. crazydaystrom

You’re welcome.

A sci-fi movie set in space & directed by Nolan, now that is a dream project.

396. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

#377 – “I am PO’d at superior intellectuals like Dickerson implying that I’m a slack-jawed juvenile that doesn’t get it….I’m not intelligent enough to realize nuTrek is not following the sacred mission statement (Space the final frontier…).

I do have enough intelligence to realize nuTrek is not your fathers Star Trek. But who cares? The father can enjoy 553 hours along with fan fiction. Let me enjoy the 4 hours of nuTrek without feeling like I’m betraying Trekdom. I love all the Trek TV/movies.”

Exactly. Thank you, thank you. You have expressed what I have been feeling so well. Each one of us have our likes and dislikes about what has been done in various series and movies, including the two latest movies. The problem is that so many people, who don’t like or appreciate the new films, have often not only criticised what they see as being wrong with the films but also the people who don’t perceive the same wrongs.

As far as Orci’s comment – “I think the article above is akin to a child acting out against his parents. Makes it tough for some to listen, but since I am a loving parent, I read these comments without anger or resentment, no matter how misguided.”

He was giving back what he (and others like me) have been getting for at least four years, except he was more polite, albeit a little patronizing. Then again, who have been the ones who have not only been really patronizing but also rude and insulting as well? Certainly not Bob Orci or most of the people who say they enjoy the two BR films. There be the truth.

397. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2014

@395. Ahmed,
“A sci-fi movie set in space & directed by Nolan, now that is a dream project.”

Now if only it didn’t star McConaughey.

The box office seems really down this year.

The Amazing Spiderman is down $10 million domestic over STID at the same place in 2013. Captain America is only $20 million over STID as it nears the end of its run. The Lego movie is the top box office grosser at only $254 million.

I expect Gozilla and Transformers will change all that, but still seems like a slow start. Perhaps Marvel really has over-saturated the box office?

All things considered, I’m not really looking forward to any movies this Summer.

398. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

397. Curious Cadet
“The box office seems really down this year.”

Maybe it’s down because of franchise fatigue.

399. Adam Bomb 1701 - May 16, 2014

#82 – According to Joan Winston, who helped organize the first NYC conventions, William Shatner was supposed to direct the 26th episode of “Trek”‘s third season. NBC passed on their option for the 25th and 26th episodes, and season three ended with “Turnabout Intruder” as the 24th.

400. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

Interesting that some say that box office returns seem to be down from this time last year. Maybe people are tiring of the big, noisy, over-the-top violent, action and are now wanting to see a different kind of action. Still, Summer upover is not quite there yet… When is it officially Summer and when do the holidays start?

I mean, it is all action, but action comes in different forms…

And now for something different – the “Button Factory”…LOL Nice one, CP!

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2014/05/pines-mantivities/

401. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

@Marja,

Check this article; it has a different take on Orci giving the helm of a major movie which may paves the way for women directors to direct big budget movies in the future!

===========================

By hiring Orci Paramount made a statement: a man with no hands-on directing experience is preferable to a female director with any experience. I heard about a number of directors who came in to meet about Star Trek 3; none were women. If you look back at Paramount’s recent history you see the last live action film they released directed by a woman was 2012’s The Guilt Trip, with a modest budget of $40 million….

Why don’t women get the budgets men get? The argument tends to be a circular one familiar to many post-college job hunters: you need two years of experience to get this entry level job. No women are given big budgets because no women have made big budget movies. This becomes an excuse for keeping certain people out of the game, an excuse that – if you look quickly – makes sense. Well, why would you entrust a huge budget movie with a director who has never had a huge budget like that? It’s simply common sense!

But Bob Orci breaks that argument.

Which means Bob Orci has just made a huge advance for women in film. By removing the ‘experience’ excuse from big budget filmmaking, Orci has opened the door to anyone to waste $150 million plus of the studio’s dollars. Literally every single woman who has ever directed anything is more qualified than Bob Orci. Which means Paramount, at least, is out of excuses as to why a woman shouldn’t be brought in to direct Transformers 5 or GI Joe 3 or any of their other tentpole pictures.

http://badassdigest.com/2014/05/15/2002s-k-19-is-the-most-expensive-live-action-film-from-a-female-director

402. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

Good article.

However, I suspect that Bob Orci does know something about how to use a big budget wisely, because he has had hands on involvement with the film making process, other than saying the words, “Action!”

Bob has said that he has been in the studio when they are filming scenes where direction is being given to an actor as to how to play a certain scene, and Bob Orci, at times, is quite likely explaining to both actor(s) and director how he envisions his own writing (or that of a writing partner) being translated onto film. I believe that Alex Kurtzman was also there as well sometimes, in order to see, advise, makes changes if and when deemed necessary.

Bob has already been part of the decision making process as to best use the budget etc, part of a director’s job, but never been credited for his contribution, because he has not been officially designated “Director”. He does seem the most logical choice in these particular circumstances.

As to whether other people who have had experience directing other genres automatically makes them more qualified than Bob Orci could be at directing this particular film genre, Star Trek – frankly, I am doubtful. Certainly any sort of experience would help though.

Re: Chris Pine’s Mantivities film and the “Button Factory”…:) – the thing is – there are different kinds of buttons.

Which sort of button are you, Chris Pine, and what presses it? That is the question.
And, No – do not tell me that I have to go see Mantivities to find out, because I don’t like the chances of me/anyone getting to see the film (in the cinema) here downunder. There is another option, of course, and that is that you fly me to LA to see the movie there. You can’t say I don’t try (and no, I did NOT writing “trying” in regards to myself)…:)!

Chris is probably too busy/disinterested to read this, but one can hope…

403. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 16, 2014

Long time, no post.

I’ll tentatively wish Orci well because I do remember that he and Kurtzman did a good job with ST09, and they wrote S/U really well there. It’s also true that so far Sleepy Hollow’s been good. JJ will still be there as a producer, probably giving directorial input when needed. So there’s hope, but then there also was STID. :/ God only knows what happens with Spock and Uhura (or anyone else) after that. I still feel bad for Uhura, and I have little hope that it might actually be a team film this time.

Anyway, my parting and humble reminder:

ST09: People made fun of the sub-group of TOS fans foaming off at the mouth over it.

STID: People made fun of the film (or were outraged by aspects of it), but seemingly most of that TOS subgroup was happy.

And with that, I’ll take my leave.

Good night and good luck.

404. VulcanFilmCritic - May 16, 2014

@402 Keachick. So Bob Orci would make a good director because he was “in the studio” when JJ was directing? Sheeeesh!
Well when I was a medical student, I was “in the operating room” (a lot) with some of the best surgeons in the US. That in no way qualifies me to pick up a knife and start doing open heart surgery.
@410 Ahmed is right. Hollywood has become a stupid boy’s club that has no intention of giving a woman a shot at being a director of action films. Even if she’s terrific.
Giving a complete amateur the reins of a major motion picture is just as stupid as giving me a knife and just as sexist as posting a sign on the door in huge block letters that says “NO WOMEN ALLOWED.”

405. VulcanFilmCritic - May 16, 2014

@402 Keachick. So Bob Orci would make a good director because he was “in the studio” when JJ was directing? Sheeeesh!
Well when I was a medical student, I was “in the operating room” (a lot) with some of the best surgeons in the US. That in no way qualifies me to pick up a knife and start doing open heart surgery.
@410 Ahmed is right. Hollywood has become a stupid boy’s club that has no intention of giving a woman a shot at being a director of action films. Even if she’s terrific.
Giving a complete amateur the reins of a major motion picture is just as stupid as giving me a knife and just as sexist as posting a sign on the door in huge block letters that says “NO WOMEN ALLOWED.”

406. Marja - May 16, 2014

375 Curious, OK, let’s make that “the next two or three movies.”
I think Paramount’s made enough money to negotiate new contracts with the actors, depending on how high a paycheck the actors demand. As I’ve said before, it’s a great “bread & butter” money-maker for any of the actors – a guaranteed gig with a decent payday.
And not all actors’ main goal is making the Hollywood “A” list. Some actors like to ACT, meaning, they like to do stage work and exchange energy with a live audience, and perform a play sequentially instead of skipping all over the script for filming convenience. They like to develop characters more deeply than is usually permitted of in Hollywood. The Hollywood “A” list has members who’ve done nothing but action movies with little depth of characterization involved.
If I were an actor I like to think I’d take Quinto’s route. Live fairly modestly. Make a few bread & butter movies in five years’ time to allow me to fund and act in productions I believe in. Appear in serious plays on Broadway. Don’t obsess over fame and youth and box office. That sort of thing.

407. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

377. Mike Barnett – May 16, 2014

I love all the Trek TV/movies. A couple of my favorite movies are TMP and ST5 – and I think they are right up there with ST09 and STID.

Well, there’s no accounting for taste, but I would only point out that you are well outside the mainstream (not only of Trekkies but of general audiences) in your taste regarding the TOS movies. STV is generally regarded as the worst of them and TMP usually ranks only slightly higher.

Everybody knows what needs to be done. Have a theatrical movie every few years

Not everybody knows what needs to be done.

Given that you love all movies and TV shows Trek, I think it’s fair to say that you would still love the BR Trek movies if they were to correct all of the problems that people tend to complain about, some of which are discussed in the article by Joseph Dickerson. Expanding on that, if the BR movies were made with the artistic sensibilities and values discussed succinctly but effectively by Nick Meyer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpOAdrezna0, they’d be better quality movies, faithful to the original spirit and aims of Trek, you’d like them just as well or better than you do now, and all of us dissatisfied customers would be happy and excited about them, too.

But, putting Orci in charge of BR Trek 3 sends a clear message (to me, at least) that we should expect more of the same, at best. And that means that Trek is still “broken.” And as much as you’d rather just enjoy the BR movies without the likes of me complaining about them, I’d like for Trek not to become permanently associated with shallow, fleeting, comic-book-style action movies which resemble the 40 years of pre-BR Trek only in the names and likenesses exploited.

408. Marja - May 16, 2014

380 Curious, can’t we have fun Summer tentpole movie that respects the audience’s intelligence? Especially one as demanding as the Trek fan base? … I don’t see that Orci has raised OR lowered the bar for Star Trek. He’s done the worst thing imaginable in that he left the bar exactly where the industry has currently placed it. STID was a very successful movie for Hollywood. But for Star Trek, it was no better or worse than anything that has come before it.

Yes, indeed, these are key words: “for Star Trek, it was no better or worse than anything that has come before it.” The devoted Trek fans who see only the original series or TNG as any good, or only the TOS movies, should realize that fact. Other Trek movies have been lamentable. Other Trek movies have had plot holes. Other Trek movies have in fact had some shamelessly hammy acting. Okay, for some of us Bad Robot uses way too much violence, and an overabundance of action and “driving the plot along” pell-mell, but these movies were audience builders, as I see it. [As you say, and I agree: Build a fanbase, then go to TV.]

I am 100% with you on “raising the bar.”

Better that than “crossing the bar” [old sailing term for dying].

409. Marja - May 16, 2014

401 Ahmed, The thing that many job-seekers [and probably many women directors] don’t have is

connections

and Bob Orci has those, and JJ Abrams’ blessing.

410. Marja - May 16, 2014

Oh, and women directors may not get big Hollywood gigs, but there are quite a number of independent film directors who are women, and Europeans as well.

Jane Campion – Agnieszka Holland – Sofia Coppola – Gillian Armstrong …. alas, I’ll need to look the others up, as they do not leap to my mind.

Yes, there are too, too few.

411. bigbang - May 16, 2014

401. Ahmed

No excuse for not hiring immigrant’s either, now!

412. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

407. Cygnus-X1
I like TMP because we went over 10 years without any new live action Trek. I acknowledge and agree that it is a very faulty movie…..but on December 7 1979, it was way cool to have my favorite Trek cast & the Enterprise the big screen.
I like ST5 because my favorite cast/characters had some really nice moments. Outside of that, it was a mess and it was made with low-budget special effects.

” I’d like for Trek not to become permanently associated with shallow, fleeting, comic-book-style action movies”
Solution: TV series….but make it something special so that it stands head and shoulders above all previous Trek TV series. I don’t have a creative mind to come up with a new concept that’ll appeal to mainstream audiences along with the Trekkies/Trekkers….but someone out there has an idea.

413. Marja - May 16, 2014

377 Mike Barnett, “I am PO’d at ["superior"] intellectuals like Dickerson implying that I’m a slack-jawed juvenile that doesn’t get it….I’m not intelligent enough to realize nuTrek is not following the sacred mission statement (Space the final frontier…). I do have enough intelligence to realize nuTrek is not your fathers Star Trek. … Let me enjoy the 4 hours of nuTrek without feeling like I’m betraying Trekdom.”

Yes, the Sacred Mission Statement [although I'd like to see a return to the idea at least], the Holy Trinity, the Uhura-only-opening-hailing-frequencies, The E Plebnista, for that matter, are from Trek’s PAST. I do think “exploring strange, new worlds” and “seeking out new life and new civilizations” is something many audiences would like to see, and I hope the movies work their way up to this. Perhaps the audience needs to form first, and be brought along. I know that sounds a bit patronizing, but then, I’m not asking for audiences to sit through a science lecture, either.

I love Trek. And Bad Robot is Trek. It’s just really energetic puppy/kitten Trek that can’t contain itself and wants to play with the shiny ball for a bit. It’ll grow up and settle down, and with the right leadership, can be a Trek more Trek fans will love, and welcome into their homes.

414. B Kramer - May 16, 2014

ST ‘Mirror Cracked’ preview:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=21631

More samples by the great John Byrne:
(scroll down)

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43808&PN=1&TPN=56

LLAP

415. dmduncan - May 16, 2014

BREAKING: Video just surfaced of Bob answering the question of how much he’s getting paid to direct the next Star Trek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l91ISfcuzDw

416. NuFan - May 16, 2014

As someone who actually is in the demographic, I can tell you a tv show will not be in the old universe and will not be made for old guys that like to live in the canon.

It can be as smart as it wants, but it will not be more canon for seniors.

417. NuFan - May 16, 2014

And Star Wars will be just as incredible as Star Trek and Star Trek 2.

418. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

@414. dmduncan

LOL

419. rfk - May 16, 2014

Thanks for the link to the EW article. Maybe I’ll forward it to a few veterans’ organizations, maybe someone there will have a hook to Hollywood.

420. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

#404 – “@402 Keachick. So Bob Orci would make a good director because he was “in the studio” when JJ was directing? Sheeeesh!
Well when I was a medical student, I was “in the operating room” (a lot) with some of the best surgeons in the US. That in no way qualifies me to pick up a knife and start doing open heart surgery.”

Sheeeesh yourself! Directing a fictional movie cannot compare with what a surgeon does in an operating theatre. To me, that is just a silly comparison.

Funny how suddenly posters are either engineers with so many degrees in this and that (MJ) or medical students studying under, wait for it…the best surgeons in the US. Somehow none of you manage to be or be taught by the *mere* ordinary, the good, the competent etc. I guess it is just the “American way”. Nobody can simply be “good enough”. Just making an observation…

421. Red Dead Ryan - May 16, 2014

Don’t forget about Kathryn Bigalow. She directed “The Hurt Locker” and “Zero Dark Thirty”, as well as some other movies.

“The Hurt Locker” won a “Best Film” Oscar and Kathryn Bigalow won the “Best Director” Oscar for the same movie a few years ago.

422. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

408. Marja – May 16, 2014

I don’t see that Orci has raised OR lowered the bar for Star Trek. He’s done the worst thing imaginable in that he left the bar exactly where the industry has currently placed it. STID was a very successful movie for Hollywood. But for Star Trek, it was no better or worse than anything that has come before it.

Yes, indeed, these are key words: “for Star Trek, it was no better or worse than anything that has come before it.” The devoted Trek fans who see only the original series or TNG as any good, or only the TOS movies, should realize that fact. Other Trek movies have been lamentable. Other Trek movies have had plot holes.

Well, I certainly disagree that BR Trek is no worse than the TOS movies. I see no basis for that equivalence.

Again, I’d just point out that citing certain flaws in the TOS movies is not a persuasive (or entirely logical) rebuttal to complaints about the BR movies; It’s an oversimplification.

It’s not just the mere existence of a single plot hole that makes the BR movies lower quality and dissatisfying, but the egregiousness and impact upon the final product of the BR plot holes in addition to the many and sundry other flaws and manifestly willful decisions made with regard to the entire approach to Trek, and to a lesser degree, to film-making. Again, I’d refer people to the Nick Meyer/TWOK clip which I posted above.

The plot of STID is riddled not only with plot holes but with other problems relating to the characters and their motivations and purposes within the story. I can say with confidence that none of the TOS movies (not even the god-awful STV, which was bad for other reasons) had as many plot issues as STID. And we have discussed the various other problems relating to both ST09 and STID at length previously.

The point being that the whole issue cannot be rightly dispensed with merely by invoking a (false) equivalence between the BR movies and the TOS movies. As for the TNG movies, there I would be inclined to agree to a proposed equivalence with the BR movies in terms of plot holes (though, as I said, plot holes are but one relevant issue).

423. Lemingsworth Bint - May 16, 2014

312.

Actually, Mr. Bradley, Paramount knows precisely what it wants from Star Trek for the foreseeable future.

It’s just not what you want.

424. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

Watch out Bob, Saldana might takes your job :)

=================================

Zoe Saldana Talks Directing Ambition

Saldana, who is already producing films through the production company she formed with her sisters, admits she definitely has ambitions to expand into another role: director.

“I’m a fan of Tony Scott, so it would be awesome if there was a female director who would do Man on Fire-type movies,” she says when asked what kind of films she would like to make.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/video-guardians-galaxy-star-zoe-704977

425. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

411. Mike Barnett – May 16, 2014

407. Cygnus-X1 I like TMP because we went over 10 years without any new live action Trek. I acknowledge and agree that it is a very faulty movie…..but on December 7 1979, it was way cool to have my favorite Trek cast & the Enterprise the big screen.

That’s how I felt about ST09. But it hasn’t held up well over time. And the pleasure that I got from watching it was ultimately rendered fleeting and empty. The story means nothing. It has no theme. The movie is basically a visual spectacle constructed out of events that, being Trek fans, we were naturally curious about. It’s exciting to watch a car chase that’s done well, regardless of why it’s happening. But after it’s over, you feel empty. At least, I do. What did that car chase mean? What was the point of it? To thrill me? OK, mission accomplished. But when I watch the car chase again at home, it’s not as thrilling. (“car chase” here is an arbitrary, generic event. I’m not referring to anything in particular in any of the BR Trek movies, but rather a generic, thrilling visual spectacle).

”I’d like for Trek not to become permanently associated with shallow, fleeting, comic-book-style action movies”

Solution: TV series….but make it something special so that it stands head and shoulders above all previous Trek TV series. I don’t have a creative mind to come up with a new concept that’ll appeal to mainstream audiences along with the Trekkies/Trekkers….but someone out there has an idea.

I agree with you that a TV series faithful to pre-BR Trek would be a solution and reasonable compromise if BR continues to make Trek movies. But the TV show would necessarily have to be run by a different production company (not BR) and have different writers (not Orci). Otherwise, the problems inherent in and intrinsic to the BR Trek movies would just be relocated to and perpetuated on TV. But do you think that Orci and BR are going to willingly let some other production company and another set of writers do a Trek TV series? Good luck prying their claws off the franchise from here on out. Note Orci’s “heavy lobbying” for this directing job. He and the rest of them will be lobbying even more heavily for an entire TV $eries.

426. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

Here we go with the “plot holes” description – again. These same complaints were also made about the first movie and upon examination, most were NOT plot holes at all. Just because someone does not like how a story is told or understand/agree with the motivations of a character does not necessarily mean that it is a plot hole.

Actually life could be described as one big *plot hole*. I think that maybe writing/presenting fiction is an attempt to fill in some of the plot holes in order to help us make more sense of the world…

427. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

426. Keachick (Rose) – May 16, 2014

You’re generalizing, not referring to specific events and motivations in the stories.

STID had more problems with plot holes than ST09.

ST09 had a poorly written villain with a weak motivation. ST09 had plot contrivances—like Kirk being marooned by Alt Spock on a planet just a few meters away from where Spock Prime is hanging out in a cave a la Ben Kenobi. And a monster just happens to chase him into that cave. Of all the places on the entire huge planet. What a nice coincidence. ST09 had unacceptably bad science—Red Matter, a little dab’ll do ya. One drop has the gravity of a mass 4 times the size of the Earth, and yet a little spaceship carries it around with no problem. It violates all known laws of physics. How is it possible? Never mind that man behind the curtain.

And so on.

428. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

*Sorry, with respect to Red Matter, one drop has the gravity of a mass 4 times the mass of THE SUN (not the Earth. typo).

429. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

425. Cygnus-X1

“Note Orci’s “heavy lobbying” for this directing job. He and the rest of them will be lobbying even more heavily for an entire TV $eries.”

G O O D!!!!

430. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

429. Mike Barnett – May 16, 2014

G O O D!!!!

Oh, you’ll like it no matter what. No need to limit your options. :-)

431. dmduncan - May 16, 2014

427. Cygnus-X1 – May 16, 2014

ST09 had unacceptably bad science—Red Matter, a little dab’ll do ya. One drop has the gravity of a mass 4 times the size of the Earth, and yet a little spaceship carries it around with no problem. It violates all known laws of physics. How is it possible? Never mind that man behind the curtain.

***

And didn’t TNG reference “neutronium plating” as the means of gravity generation aboard starships?

Same thing.

Why do you act like Bob is the guy who put inaccurate science in Star Trek? Star Trek has always been a cross between Euripedes and Marvel Comics.

GR didn’t much care HOW they would have gravity in space. The science of it didn’t matter to him. He just imagined the future the way he liked it and put it on TV.

432. boborci - May 16, 2014

424. Awesome! maybe she’ll let me produce her movies with her company!

433. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

430. Cygnus-X1 – May 16, 2014
“Oh, you’ll like it no matter what. No need to limit your options. :-)”

Yup. I enjoy seeing what professionals do with the franchise. And excuse me for enjoying nuTrek with my simplistic brain. You know what? Hollywood creates entertainment. They don’t create rocket science. I love being able to escape into the world of Star Trek. I don’t care about plot holes. Perhaps my brain is wired differently than yours….but I’ll take mine if it means I can enjoy movies and TV shows without getting hung up on plot holes.

434. Mike Barnett - May 16, 2014

432. boborci

Perhaps some day but I’d prefer you focus on taking my favorite franchise to the next level….and beyond (cough) TV series (cough). :-)

435. Keachick (Rose) - May 16, 2014

Cygnus – Give it a rest.

Yes, I was generalizing. For instance, the example you give about red matter is NOT a plot hole. So it violates all KNOWN laws of physics? What about the UNknown laws that may pertain to the universe out there that we do not know about yet, let alone, try to explain? “How is it possible?” Well, in the universe of the 24th century, red matter doing what it did is possible, because the writers said it was. That is all anyone needs to know. Having red matter shown to do what it does, according to the varying circumstances, is NOT a plot hole – period!!!

Gotta go. Bye

436. Ahmed - May 16, 2014

@ 432. boborci – May 16, 2014

“Awesome! maybe she’ll let me produce her movies with her company!”

I’m sure that Saldana won’t mind that at all :-)

btw, Syfy is producing a new sci-fi series based on ‘The Expanse’ novels, perhaps one day, you guys at K/O Paper Products, may want to take a look at other SF novels to produce for TV.

Novels such as The Night’s Dawn Trilogy & The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton , The Culture books by Iain M. Banks or The Revelation Space books by Alastair Reynolds & many others.

437. Adolescent Nightmare - May 16, 2014

Congratulations, boborci! Please do not change a thing with Star Trek!

438. Elias Javalis - May 16, 2014

432,

Bob i am very grateful you get to talk to us.

Please while directing tell Paramount about the Poor Greek Star Trek Fans – Paramount’s CEO was Greek, he he – and not to Stall the Movie this time, for 2 friggin Months!!!

As Always, I Support you 100%

439. Curious Cadet - May 16, 2014

@424. Ahmed,
“Watch out Bob, Saldana might takes your job”

Considering Orci’s qualifications, she’s like Ingmar frigging Bergman.

Watch out indeed …

440. Marja - May 16, 2014

421 RDR, I am embarrassed that I forgot to put her on the list! Bigelow got major props for “The Hurt Locker” but, though “Zero Dark Thirty” won awards, it was condemned by some progressive film critics [and progressives in general] because of its heavy reliance on US Government accounts.

Nevertheless. Hooray for Kathryn Bigelow! At least one major Hollywood film director who is female!
————————————————————————————————
422, 425 Cygnus/ “Well, I certainly disagree that BR Trek is no worse than the TOS movies. I see no basis for that equivalence … citing certain flaws in the TOS movies is not a persuasive (or entirely logical) rebuttal to complaints about the BR movies; It’s an oversimplification.”

It sure is. But it’s our way of saying that TOS and the movies prior to BR’s watch were not perfect. Many people here seem to think that all before Bad Robot was near-perfect Trek, oh except for Nemesis of course. I mean, come on. NONE of it was perfect. The closest to perfect, in the minds of many, was WOK. And it had a villain with a motive equal to Nero’s in Trek09 – revenge on the ones who killed his people and his beloved wife. It was space opera at its finest.

Now I loved WOK because of the Enterprise, her crew, their love for each other, their actions to save each other, and so on. Again, you and I differ on why and how we watch movies. Trek09 satisfied me with regard to character backgrounds and motivations [especially Spock’s], except for Nero.

And I disagreed to a great extent with the story arc for Kirk in the first two movies. But the character, as portrayed by Pine, has, for some reason, gotten to my heart a little more than many of Shat-Kirk’s depictions.

Yes, the science is sometimes ridiculous. Why do they need that huge ball of Red Matter when a lil’ dab’ll do ya? Because it looks good, I guess. And the hypodermic thing to withdraw Red Matter will give people the creeps. And they’ll put the Red Matter in a thing that looks like that Genesis thing in WOK. And so on. A lot of it is about how it LOOKS. What immediate emotional impact will the look and speed and so on have on the audience? They want to hit the young’uns in the guts so they’ll leave the theatre and say, “That movie was great! Go see it!”

I agree with you on the excessive [and sometimes nonsensical] action in BR Trek. And I agree with many of your points on story arcs, plotlines, well-founded drama and so on. But Trek, previous to BR Trek, does not always live up to your standards either, and I wish you’d acknowledge that. Trek is not – never has been – perfect. We can lobby for it to be better. We can plead with Bob Orci to listen to us, the fans. We can wish that Bob would vet his stories through you, Cygnus, and a couple of the other very perceptive writing critics. But I doubt that’ll happen.

Ultimately, the conventions of modern Hollywood movie-making are brought to bear, and these conventions do not often allow for the quality some of us might hope for. It is simply not done, or when it IS done, the movies do not make huge grosses as do Marvel movies.

I have noticed lately that the narrative line of life as some of us see it has been disturbed by electronic devices and shorter, multi-tasking attention spans. The young have a different way of thinking, and being in the world. It does not mean they’re stupid! It’s just a huge generation gap, bigger than that between myself and my parents [between us, our lives spanned the last century (yes, I had old parents)]. I am beginning to feel my style of life is becoming irrelevant. Some “next generation” folk do not always want a through line, they do not need it to enjoy a movie. You and I would love for them to appreciate what we appreciate, but … yeah, it’s going to be a bit harder for me to watch mass-market movies and TV in years to come.

I love “Mad Men” because it’s “narrative” and I think Trek needs to go there, on TV. But Trek can’t possibly do that in mass-market movies, and, my god, it doesn’t need to go back to pre-Bad Robot Trek, not even on TV. It just needs to be better-written BR Trek, with less crazy action and fewer nonsensical extrinsic happenings, plot devices and coinkydinks. I’m not sure BR can produce that kind of Trek, but I’m willing to chance watching it.

441. dion1701 - May 16, 2014

#308
#308

Look I know hot to use the internet too. I will give you inflation but Star trek 2009 still tops all of them. Not to mention the following article from the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/files/2014/03/franchises-charted.jpg
The first Star Trek movie was released in 1979 — a full decade after the original television show left the airwaves. That first film, “Star Trek: The Motion Picture,” has the second-lowest Internet Movie Database (IMDB) user rating at 6.3. But its worldwide box office gross was $139 million. Adjusted for inflation, that’s $454.8 million in 2014 dollars — putting it somewhere in between the inflation-adjusted returns of the two films in the rebooted film saga that began in 2009.
The two rebooted films are the top-rated by IMDB users out of the all 12 entries of Star Trek film canon — with 2009’s “Star Trek” earning an 8.1 and “Into Darkness” garnering a 7.9. The top-rated film featuring the original cast was “The Wrath of Khan” with a 7.8, while the Picard-helmed Next Generation crew’s top film was “First Contact.” Apparently, watching the android Data experience the thrill of physical sensation wasn’t enough to beat the special effects powerhouse of a J. J. Abrams production.
The first rebooted Star Trek film also tops Rotten Tomatoes’ freshness scale, with a 95 percent critic approval rate and a 91 percent audience rating. “First Contact” has the next-highest combined Rotten Tomatoes rating with a 92 percent critic rating and an 89 audience rating, while “The Wrath of Khan” has an even 90 percent on both. “Into Darkness,” the second of the films in the rebooted universe, earned an 87 percent freshness rating from critics and a 90 percent from the audience.
Assuming IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes follow the same trends as general Internet users, their audience and user ratings may skew towards the preferences of younger fans — so the findings from this data are likely not a perfect representative of the opinions of the entirety of Trek fandom.
But the reboot films average out to an even 8 in IMDB ratings, while averages of both of the earlier franchise grouping of films average out to a 6.7. (Note: For the purpose of calculating this average, “Star Trek: Generations,” which features the full cast of “The Next Generation” and three cast members from the original series, was counted for both.)

The point is the newer films may not be as popular with Trekkies, but the rest of the general public seems to like them. So who do you think wins? Be logical… crazy right?

Honestly Mr. Orci will do a great job. I personally have all the confidence in the world that he will not let you down. Also can you tell me what other writer or director has as much interaction with the fans as Bob does? For that alone we should be behind him! Again to my point – apply for a writing gig with Bad Robot and or paramount. I would love to see any of your work out there so you can see what it is like when the crazed Trek fans turn on ya. As Shatner once said “get a life”!

442. Phil - May 16, 2014

@427. So, what levels of bad science are acceptable? Is there a metric for that somewhere? FTL and transporters are okay, but exotic materials aren’t? And unacceptable to who, anyway? The sci-fi police?

443. Cygnus-X1 - May 16, 2014

431. dmduncan – May 16, 2014

>i?427. Cygnus-X1 – May 16, 2014 ST09 had unacceptably bad science—Red Matter, a little dab’ll do ya. One drop has the gravity of a mass 4 times the size of the Earth, and yet a little spaceship carries it around with no problem. It violates all known laws of physics. How is it possible? Never mind that man behind the curtain.

***

And didn’t TNG reference “neutronium plating” as the means of gravity generation aboard starships?

Same thing.

Why do you act like Bob is the guy who put inaccurate science in Star Trek? Star Trek has always been a cross between Euripedes and Marvel Comics.

That’s actually a really good question.

The issue and the important difference gets complicated quickly, though I’m happy to get into it.

To put it all very simply: Not all science conceits in science fiction are created equal.

There are certain purposes for sci-fi conceits, eg: This the only way to tell or further the story that we want to tell with the theme that we want to impart.

There are also differences between unknowns in science. Not all unknowns are created equal. Some conceits are plausible and some call attention to themselves as ridiculous and/or fantastical. Fantastical things are fine in LOTR, but not in Star Trek. The Star Trek universe is too closely related to the real world for LOTR-style fantasy to work.

Red Matter is a fantastical thing. It’s a deus ex machina, a magic wand being waved in the air to make something appear out of thin air, in this case a black hole (which isn’t even a physically accurate phenomenon to serve as the particular plot device for the purpose that it is used).

One of the tenets of Star Trek since the beginning was that it was science fiction. In TOS, fantastical devices were, as a rule, kept to a necessary minimum. Transporters were conceived because it was not cost effective to land the Enterprise on a planet each week. As such, the conceit of transporter technology served a well-defined and necessary purpose. And as such, it was not difficult for us to suspend our disbelief. “OK, so they have to get down to the planet. Now what happens?” And, in TNG, efforts were made to justify conceits like transporter technology. People were bothered by issues relating to the mechanics of re-assembling an object atom-by-atom, and so a clever TNG writer came up with the “Heisenberg Compensator,” to hypothetically resolve the problem of simultaneously knowing both the position and velocity of each atom in the object being re-integrated by the transporter. The scientific conceits were thoughtful, intelligent, knowledgeable and their production values were such that they spent money on a science consultant full-time. BR is so bad about their bad science that no one would ever think that they employ a science consultant. And so on….

444. Cygnus-X1 - May 17, 2014

440. Marja – May 16, 2014

I love Mad Men, too. That’s a good example of good writing.

I’ve never contended that the TOS movies were all perfect, but there are significant and important differences in their composition and in the approach to them as compared with the BR Trek movies. The Nick Meyer clip above addresses some of them. People here have addressed others.

I am 100% certain that Bad Robot is not the only production company qualified and willing to make a Trek TV show. I’ve seen what BR can do, and I find it fundamentally dissatisfying. At the risk of seeming melodramatic (It’s just a TVs show), I have an ethical protestation about the current BR approach to Trek. Trek got us to love it because it was a thoughtful, sci-fi, expand-your-mind-challenge-your-beliefs-and-make-you-think kind of show. Just look at the best of TOS and TNG, if nothing else. The difference between them and the BR approach is unmistakable.

445. Cygnus-X1 - May 17, 2014

442. Phil – May 16, 2014

@427. So, what levels of bad science are acceptable? Is there a metric for that somewhere? FTL and transporters are okay, but exotic materials aren’t? And unacceptable to who, anyway? The sci-fi police?

Yes, to the sci-fi police. And that’s me. I am the law.

Consider #443, then get back to me.

446. Cygnus-X1 - May 17, 2014

(For Keachick: JK I’m not really the law.)

447. I - May 17, 2014

First, let me say that I really don’t like NuTrek. It doesn’t feel like Star Trek. It’s more like a dumb Michael Bay action fest. But I guess that’s mainly due to fricking JJ Abrams, who boasted about how he “doesn’t get” Star Trek and doesn’t like it either; and so he decided to turn it into something he likes, sort of Star Trek/Star Wars hybrid. Well, fu** you, JJ. That lens flare magic didn’t fool me. I was glad to hear the news that he won’t be directing anymore. He’s gone now, and that’s a good thing. Nevertheless, he is still producing and his company is still in charge of making Star Trek movies. That’s a bad thing. But at least he’s not directing.

And now R. Orci is the new director of the third installment. Is that bad? As a matter of fact I don’t think it is. Although he was the (co-)writer of that stupid movie called “Star Trek” and another movie with a stupid title Star Trek into Darkness, he may turn out to be a good directorial choice. He is a Star Trek fan and already familiar with the stuff. I think that’s a plus and a better option than having Jar Jar in the director’s chair. And secondly, he’s only co-writing the film, which reduces the possibility that the plot will revolve around some tattooed cardboard villain (or any other Trek-related villain) seeking revenge. Those two new writers will probably introduce plot elements which are possibly more in line with classic Star Trek storytelling. Who knows, maybe there will be something intelligent in it. Remains to be seen. I have no hopes in regard to those movies (as long as they are done by BR), but I am willing to give Orci the benefit of the doubt, despite all, and I even think it’s a good decision to make him the director of that third and final movie.

448. Disinvited - May 17, 2014

#441. dion1701 – May 16, 2014

Re:Get A Life

The SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE writer Robert Smigel of Triumph the Insult Comic Dog fame wrote that skit, in which Shatner appeared, and is the actual author and creator of that line. When you fail to give proper attribution to Smigel as the voice expressing that sentiment and misattribute it to Shatner who was portraying this Smigel written caricature/parody of his public “Shat” image, you appear to be reveling in precisely the same crazed fan stupor that you appear to find so damning in others while simultaneously demonstrating that you haven’t a clear comprehension of scripting at all. In which case, it would not be wise for those prospective Paramount spec script writers, that you sought to advise, to give said advice any credence whatsoever.

#410. Marja – May 16, 2014

“… there are quite a number of independent film directors who are women, and Europeans as well.” — Marja

# 411. bigbang – May 16, 2014

“No excuse for not hiring immigrant’s either, now!” — bigbang

I’m not sure what the significance of this “European” or “immigrant” factor is for a director other than possibly having a better handle on the lay of the land as most Hollywood BlockBlusters are going outside of the U.S. to save costs on filming?

But be that as it may, the both of you are aware that Roberto Orci’s point of origin lies outside of the U.S.? Therefore his hiring clearly invoked no such excuses and I sincerely doubt hiring immigrant directors has ever been a problem for Trek as that line was crossed when they hired the Canadian, Shatner and later the Englishmen, Carson and Baird.

449. dmduncan - May 17, 2014

443. Cygnus-X1 – May 16, 2014

One of the tenets of Star Trek since the beginning was that it was science fiction. In TOS, fantastical devices were, as a rule, kept to a necessary minimum.

***

Spock using a ruby and a 60 watt light bulb to make a laser beam that cuts the lock off their cell door?

Slingshotting around the sun to go back in time to the 20th century?

Entering a mysterious barrier at the edge of the galaxy gives 2 crew members god-like powers?

They made it up. They counted on the same audience ignorance about science in the 60’s, to make their stories work, that they count on in movies today.

450. Captain Slow - May 17, 2014

The rules are very simple:

Pre-2009 made up science: good

Post-2009 made up science: bad

Personally, I’m just happy that technobabble is dead. No one in the new movies ever says things like “There’s too much quantum interference.”

451. Mike Barnett - May 17, 2014

Thanks everybody for the comments directed towards the science/engineer X1 earthling. I was getting worked up over X1’s comments and I had to log off my computer in order to meditate and calm down. ~sigh~

452. bassmaster22 - May 17, 2014

Meh. Seems like a step backwards between first time directors and lesser experienced writers. 50 years of trek handed basically handed over to the “in-training” team. Amazing that this would happen, and equally amazing that anyone is okay with this.

So we’ll just be getting another thoughtless blitzfest. Never thought I’d wish for Berman back.

453. Curious Cadet - May 17, 2014

@448. dmduncan,
“Spock using a ruby and a 60 watt light bulb to make a laser beam that cuts the lock off their cell door?”

He was the original McGyver!

______________
“They made it up. They counted on the same audience ignorance about science in the 60′s, to make their stories work, that they count on in movies today.”

You know I respect your usually well measured and thoughtful input here. And I know you were responding specifically to Cygnus’ arguments about TOS & TNG …

But please stop making this argument. The sins of the past do NOT justify the continued misuse of science, and other writing and directing shortcuts.

It’s 2014, Orci is using cutting edge science to justify his alternate universe, yet the overall science and narrative bar for Star Trek is being kept in essentially the same place it was when last we visited the Prime Universe on the big screen. There’s an element of hypocrisy there, and we as fans should demand better.

454. dion1701 - May 17, 2014

447. Disinvited

LOL I knew where the quote was from. But hey I figured it out, some of you just need to get a better sense of humor and not take this “fiction” so serious. Just enjoy the ride!

“Why So Serious?”

P.S. If you don’t think Shatner really has thought that at least once in his life you are kidding yourself.

455. I am not Herbert - May 17, 2014

…yeah, must agree w/ Cygnus-X1:

nu-trek is characterized not only by bad supposedly sci-fi writing in general,

but also by VERY BAD science, tech, and physics. (It shows no understanding)

it’s just shiny plastic *CRAP* in a “Star Trek” (sic) wrapper… =(

456. I am not Herbert - May 17, 2014

“Why So Serious?”

yeah! just sit back and drool! =D

nevermind that it *USED TO* have meaning… d’uh… =P

457. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

@452. Curious Cadet

“But please stop making this argument. The sins of the past do NOT justify the continued misuse of science, and other writing and directing shortcuts.

It’s 2014, Orci is using cutting edge science to justify his alternate universe, yet the overall science and narrative bar for Star Trek is being kept in essentially the same place it was when last we visited the Prime Universe on the big screen. There’s an element of hypocrisy there, and we as fans should demand better.”

Precisely. It always bugger me when some people keeps referring to the old movies/series that has plot holes/bad science in order to justify the problems in the new movies.

There is no excuse for anyone to repeat old mistakes, we should expect & get better movies. I mean, what’s so wrong in asking for a movie with a coherent story & character developments ?

458. Disinvited - May 17, 2014

#453. dion1701 – May 17, 2014

” If you don’t think Shatner really has thought that at least once in his life you are kidding yourself.” — dion1701

Well, what I do know is that Shatner’s been getting writer’s credits since 1956. And I am even more certain that if he had anything to do with the creation of those lines and thoughts expressed that he’d make darn sure he’d receive credit.

Besides, Smigel self-indentifies as a “comic bully” something the sketch drips with and with which Shatner somehow falters in “$#*! My Dad Says”.

At best, you might be able to claim he bought into Smigel’s conceit.

Another thing that is certain is that the book Shatner wrote with the self-same title as Smigel’s SNL line is lacking in much of the sentiments that Smigel himself expresses in his sketch script and as Triumph towards these same targets.

In Shatner’s own words, “I bought into the Trekkie stereotypes. In a nutshell, I was a dope.”

I’ll leave it to you to decide whether you wish to continue to express resonance with words actually attributable to the man you claimed to have quoted.

459. dion1701 - May 17, 2014

I get and can not help but agree with all of you on the science but the issue is we have all evolved. The original series showed us things that had not yet been imagined. Items like the communicator, pads and computers that answer us back where thought to be items of the 22nd century. Here they are commonplace in the 20th. At the rate technology changes can we really do justice to what would be the norm in 200 years? I mean if you want to be spot on with science would if be possible to travel faster then light and return without years passing on earth? Could you go to Warp Speed without the force of such acceleration killing you. Yes I know inertial dampers right….

It is science fiction, not science fact. You all know the transporter was created because they did not have the budget to build a shuttle set right?. It was done for the writers. So can we give the people making this “Fictional Universe” a bit of a break? I mean I would hate to see how some of you would be to DC and Gene if the original show was done now. For example – Sulu and a landing party trapped on a frozen planet having to warm rocks with phasers because the transporter are inoperable. HEY SEND A SHUTTLE CRAFT! But it is was and is just TV just like it is just a movie.

I will say @ 456 Ahmed – yes, a coherent story & character development are and should be key.

What gets confusion is looking at Trek as a whole. You have to separate the movies from the series. It was the series that inspired people. Star Trek the series cause many to go into science or become astronauts. The same goes for other generations that watched TNG. As a series the franchise can be inspiring! As a high dollar blockbuster for a major motion picture studio they have to fill seats. I would love nothing more then to see Star Trek back on television. I mean if Star Wars can have numerous animated series and some upcoming live what cant we have Star Trek. I would take a well done animated series in a heart beat.

Anyway, you can go on an on about this or that but I have a little story that puts it into perspective. I and my friends have been fans since we were kids watching the repeats of the original series in the 70’s One of our friends has a sister that never watched any Star Trek nor did she have the desire too. However my buddy talked his sister into going to see the 2009 Star Trek and she loved it. She is now a Star Trek fan. So as much as I hated a brewery used or questioned a few things, I have to say The movie was entertaining and it did it’s job be keeping Trek alive.

460. Marja - May 17, 2014

447 Disinvited, My comment about European women directors had nothing to do with “replacing Bob Orci” and everything to do with instilling a certain humane quality into popular film-making. Probably never happen, especially in the US.

I consider many International films [not including their "actioners"] to be very thought-provoking, questioning of human values, aware of the natural world, incisive concerning human foibles, history, and morality. In fact filmmakers all over the world are beginning to share their cultural experience with the world at large, some at risk of their lives [Middle Eastern women directors and Chinese directors such as Zhang Yimou, before China opened itself more to Western influence].

What I call “International film making” is the direct antithesis of American Hollywood film making [except for "indie" films], in which much of the action takes place in a seemingly hermetically sealed, solely plot forwarding, quintessentially American world, one in which the main characters deal with outside influences as problems to be solved, not lived with, in order to achieve their ends. And in which everyone lives in a perfectly designed home with only the finest accoutrements.

I realize that my comment was made down the thread from Ahmed’s original post about “women directors in cinema having an easier time in future due to Orci’s being hired as director-with-no-experience,” but it was intended as a comment on film quality, not specifically directed to Trek, which [in my opinion at least] is forever doomed to be on the mediocre side. Though emotionally moving, optimistic and inspiring, in its very special ways.

461. Marja - May 17, 2014

And yes, I’m perfectly aware that Mr Orci has Cuban antecedents and is from Mexico, and has made a success here.

But he also has forged connections with a director who’s becoming a huge name in Hollywood, and I don’t think that counts for nothing. I think it’s a pretty big factor.

I hope he does a fantastic job of Trek3 and does not resort to some of the facile plot-moving “mechanics” of the previous two movies.

462. Marja - May 17, 2014

449 and 450, Duncan and –,

Thank you. Couldn’t have said it better.

I do hope that Trek gets to more accurate science, but to view previous Trek as so much more scientific seems a bit … set in denial, I’m thinking. Now one thing that TOS did right was to consult with representatives from RAND Corp., to get a feel for likely future technology, and this sort of thing should continue. I would like to see Trek more solidly based in science. My point is, it’s not bloody likely in the Hollywood movies.

The fact that Cygnus is well-versed in science, along with several of our other posters, is clear. But we must acknowledge that TOS and subsequent Treks, with all their scientific fallibilities, still so impressed generations of kids that they were inspired to get into real, actual science.

I remember being saddened when I looked at astronomy books and realized the stars were way too far apart, even for ships to travel at warp speed to get from place to place in days. I was 11 years old, and unfortunately, total crap at math, so science was not a viable career alternative, and nor could I become a doctor like McCoy, but I could still dream, and be a humanist, two of the wonderful qualities Trek inculcated in me. Even with its imperfect science.

463. Marja - May 17, 2014

453 Curious, I respect you too.

But we need to realize that the expediencies of modern Hollywood do not accommodate great science in action films.

I don’t excuse BR for its sometimes lazy use of “science,” I’m just really tired of people arguing that it should be so much better. YES IT SHOULD. I get that.

But it’s not likely. They use things to move the plot along, and sometimes those things are sorta scientific. There’s a starship flying from Earth to Vulcan in about three minutes with no acknowledgement of time passed. There’s red matter. Yes, yes, yes, most of the science sucks.

Trek belongs on TV, where we can see more valid science, where we can see better narrative arcs, and where we can pause for breath to think.

We can want, we can comment, we can request, yes, we can even “demand,” but moviemakers do not always or even often respond to fans. They respond to the studios, now, studios which demand high profits and butts in theatre seats. And many of those butts belong to the young, and some of those young disinterested in much science, just looking for a good action flick.

If movie Trek manages to lead young people to explore science with interest, so much the better, wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles.

But if movie Trek [through wide audience interest and profit therefrom] leads to TV Trek, with more long form ideas, and more science [please god with NO technobabble], that will be truly wonderful.

464. Marja - May 17, 2014

455/6, Herbert, Trek still has meaning. I’m sorry you don’t get it, but stories are about people, and the people in the movies — for me at least — have characters that have meaning to me.

The science, meh. If you’re watching movies for strict science, I suggest documentaries, or “2001” — but warning, the ending of “2001” could be considered fantastical.

465. Keachick (Rose) - May 17, 2014

The latest BR ST films are not using bad science any more than was used in older series. This is not about justifying anything.

This is about the nature of real-world scientific enquiry and understanding. Real-world scientists are constantly arguing among themselves as to the validity of various scientific *theory* put forward, especially when it comes to topics like the nature(s) of black holes or about whether the speed of light can vary (re: mathematician Roy Kerr’s (and a few others) computations/*theory in 1963) or about the possibility of elements found in outer space that are not found or known about on earth or in space as we understand it now.

Also, it seems that it is OK to have an alien substance, dilithium crystals, in order to be the catalyst for warp drive, but not red matter (scientific name – not known). Since when do dilithium crystals look more “realistic” more “scientific” than red matter held together in large volume form? Who says that crystals don’t look as Cool as any amount of red matter kept safely in storage?

BTW – I have read a genuine real-world scientific explanation as to why such a chemical element, such as the fictional red matter, might be kept in such a manner. Unfortunately I cannot recall exactly what was explained, but apparently there are one or two substances today that need to be held in a similar manner, otherwise they are deemed unsafe. The explanation was posted some time ago, on the Star Trek (2009) IMDb message board.

These issues re red matter, various forms of black holes thought to exist etc were discussed nearly five years ago. They can be considered as being as valid, if not more so, as any other scientific notion/theory and therefore is defined as good science and it follows that these Star Trek films are GOOD science fiction. Red matter is not a fantastical notion, since it is not written as something found on earth, but rather in an alien environment, which also precludes it from being a plot hole.

LOTR/Hobbit stories/films all take place on earth, but not necessarily one that we humans have much, if any, memory of having lived in. The stories are based on human myth and legends…Using LOTR is not a good comparison.

The introduction of the alien substance, colloquially called Red Matter is NOT a plot; the kind of black hole created by red matter is NOT a plot hole; portable transwarp beaming technology is NOT a plot hole, H/K’s “superblood”, as Dr McCoy described it, is NOT a plot hole. All are consistent with what has already been explained within the fictional Star Trek universes, that exist 250 or 350 years from now, respectively.

Please – learn just even a little about today’s real-world scientific *theory* and about what constitutes a genuine plot hole etc.

BR Star Treks – “dumbed down” – my ass – no way.

As for understanding people’s motivations for doing and acting as they do – well, much has been written and argued about between various psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, philosophers, humanists, theologists, evolutionists and just about any Tom, Dick and his dog. Despite, or as a result, of all the various explanations and die-hard pronouncements about what and who we are or supposed to be as humans, still so much alludes us or just totally bamboozles and confuses…

Let’s get real here – just once!

466. Optimistic Doodle - May 17, 2014

So now we wait to get word from the man himself. I guess all we can do is talk to ourselves or…

TrekMovie.com meets Roberto Orci

Speaking of future movies, do you expect to be involved in a third Star Trek movie?
# Yes. I hope we are invited back. I would love to do another one.

What about a fourth, fifth and sixth?
# I would love to do nothing but Star Trek. However, I am aware that not necessarily being the best thing for Star Trek. I would want someone to tap me on the shoulder the minute it is stale. And I hope I have the self control and will to go “you are right, the best thing for me to do now is make a gracious and easy way for someone [male or female] to come in and continue on.”


http://trekmovie.com/2012/07/17/exclusive-orci-says-star-trek-tv-talks-getting-real-declares-movie-tie-in-comics-game-as-canon/

Fascinating.

467. Keachick (Rose) - May 17, 2014

“There’s a starship flying from Earth to Vulcan in about three minutes with no acknowledgement of time passed. There’s red matter. Yes, yes, yes, most of the science sucks.”

The fact that the time taken to get from Earth to Vulcan or Earth to Kronos is not properly explained in either movie has nothing with science fact or fiction. It has to do with an omission in the writing and/or editing. This is an issue that I have written to Bob Orci about at times when he seems to be hanging around this site.
To illustrate – a similar omission could happen in any story, like not relaying how long it may take to drive a motor vehicle between one US state and another, where the distances are known to be quite large, and yet the viewer is given the impression that the driving took little or no time at all, which you know, given the information you already have, is not possible.

It is the feeling given by the film makers that the time taken to do something is being time-compressed unnaturally. Kronos and Vulcan are not planets within our solar system and the impression I have, and I suspect many others share this, is that it would take at least two to three days to get to either of these worlds, going at warp speed. However, that is not the impression given in either of these two movies. I suppose this could be described as being a bit of plot hole because it is inconsistent with what the viewers already know or perceive to be true of either universe.

The fact that prime Spock was able to make use of an element not found on earth (so far as we know) to destroy a supernova is NOT bad science.

468. boborci - May 17, 2014

466. I still mean that. I but I may still have a wee bit of dilithium left in my engines for another ride;)

469. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

@ 468. boborci – May 17, 2014

“466. I still mean that. I but I may still have a wee bit of dilithium left in my engines for another ride;)”

Interesting, guess that mean we are going to see the cast do a 4th movie after the next one.

470. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

btw; congratulations, ASM 2 is about to cross $600M worldwide by the end of the weekend.

471. boborci - May 17, 2014

467. Hi. There is acknowledgment of time passing, though admittedly subtle. When Kirk passes out and then wakes up again in sick bay, Bones is in different clothes (his Stafleet uniform). Nice bit of impressionism on JJ’s part, I thought;)

472. boborci - May 17, 2014

469. Who knows what the future holds, but Star Trek is surely in it in some form or another, as it has been longer than I have been alive.

473. Optimistic Doodle - May 17, 2014

@468: Make it so! Optimism to you :-)

474. Mike Barnett - May 17, 2014

471. boborci
I feel like an idiot because I’ve probably watched ST09 a dozen times and I never noticed that….
Hmmmm…..what other subtle things did I miss?

475. Red Dead Ryan - May 17, 2014

Honestly, I think its high time that Cygnus moved on. He’s been rambling on and on continuously about the bad science (according to him) in BR Trek versus the good science (according to him) in the prime universe Trek.

He finds fault with Red Matter, but is perfectly fine with the Genesis Device, which turns a barren rock into a class M planet with varied climates and lifeforms in mere minutes?

Sheesh, gimme a break!

476. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

@472. boborci

True.

I take it that you are going to be very busy with pre-production & casting in the coming months. Hopefully you will keep us informed or even better, make production video diary, that would be awesome.

477. Keachick (Rose) - May 17, 2014

#471 – Hi there! Come on Bob – Most of us need something demonstrated or explained via the “sledgehammer” method…:)

Also, are you and JJ implying that Dr McCoy is a very slow dresser?…:) Sorry – first thought that popped into my head after reading your comment…

It didn’t quite work. Just a teeny wee bit more was required…

Oh well…at least I am not nitpicking about the same stuff that get so many others continually knotted up. I’m not sure if you feel this is a good or bad thing…:)

478. Disinvited - May 17, 2014

#474. Mike Barnett – May 17, 2014

First, I want to be clear that I am one of those AV geeks who just take it as a given the the passage of time is elastic on film and doesn’t necessarily have to have a one to one correspondence to its passage as demarcated by my watch, i.e. as in the passage of time in diffusing a bomb which has only 15 seconds left on screen but manages to consume 3 minutes of my time in the theater. So that has not been one of my bugaboos with their 2009 effort.

However, if an assertion is made that they cleverly indicated the passage of a great deal of time in going from Earth to Vulcan via medical personnel wardrobe changes then I am going to turn a critical viewing towards consistency in said time indicator in going back from Vulcan to Earth and largely because McCoy had a prominent presence in that return leg. If it is there, award kudos. If it is not, the mighty Marvel NoPrize for a nice try.

479. Stephan - May 17, 2014

@boborci:

I would love to see some “real” space shots in the next trek like in “Gravity” or the Interstellar-Trailer. I want to believe that Star Trek is in the real world / space, not in a fantasy world like Star Wars or Thor. The feeling of “real” scifi would be great. :)

480. Hugh Hoyland - May 17, 2014

@Boborci

Hey man, can you give us any ideas on how your actually going to shoot the movie? Is it going to similar to JJ Abrams style (visually)? Somrthing different?

481. Mike Barnett - May 17, 2014

Just got an email from Netflix:
“New Arrival! Star Trek Into Darkness is now on Netflix”

482. Cygnus-X1 - May 17, 2014

449. dmduncan – May 17, 2014

Spock using a ruby and a 60 watt light bulb to make a laser beam that cuts the lock off their cell door? Slingshotting around the sun to go back in time to the 20th century?

I kind of remember it, but I’d have to watch that TOS episode with the light-bulb laser again. If that’s all there was to it, then that was a mistake uncharacteristic of TOS. Slingshotting around the Sun to go back in time is actually based on a common astrophysical hypothesis that was going around at that time: that if you could slingshot around two black holes, they might accelerate you fast enough to go back in time. Remember STIV was made in the mid-1980s. Still, it wasn’t a particularly good scientific conceit, and does leave a lot of loose ends for the Trek world, just as many of the time-travel conceits and “time-trouble” episodes have. But, then, Trek TV subsequent to TOS did try to address those issues. They were clearly thoughtful about the issue and put reasonable care into trying to account for it—the Temporal Prime Directive; the Temporal police (or whatever they were called); addressing possible, unintended consequences arising out of time travel…—on the whole, they tried hard enough to address such issues that we find it reasonable to cut them a bit of slack if they didn’t always succeed.

The main point in the difference between TOS and BR with regard to scientific conceits: thoughtfulness and reasonable care. BR has shown A LACK OF thoughtfulness or reasonable care with regard to their scientific conceits, and their bad science is worse and more prevalent than it was in TOS. And they’ve had all the advantages of not having to think up the premise of their movie series because TOS already did the heavy lifting.

Entering a mysterious barrier at the edge of the galaxy gives 2 crew members god-like powers?

This one is more akin to the Genesis device, a conceit whose specifics are kept vague and is presented such that it does not appear to violate any specific laws of physics. Further, it’s a conceit which was necessary to tell a certain story, from which we get a good story and meaningful themes. We’re never told and we don’t know how the Genesis Device works. But in the story of TWOK, the Genesis Device as a scientific conceit is dealt with. Its potential effect upon the whole Trek world is actually one of the themes which we get from that very conceit. Thoughtfulness and reasonable care.

When TWOK ends (actually when STIII ends) the Genesis Device has been done away with. If the Federation still has the plans, they’re keeping them lock away. It’s not “out there” in the Trek world causing logical-consistency issues and plot holes indefinitely into the future like Red Matter or Magic Blood or a duffel-bag mega-transporter which can beam anyone to another quadrant of the galaxy instantly. Think about the implications of Red Matter for the BR Trek world. One drop, which you can carry around (in a duffel bag) can destroy a planet. Or Magic Blood. That one is fairly obvious. Bones hath cured Death!

They made it up. They counted on the same audience ignorance about science in the 60′s, to make their stories work, that they count on in movies today.

They did. But, to sum up, it’s not just an issue of “making something up“. Not all science conceits are created equal. They have different purposes within the story and they yield different benefits for their costs in terms of stretching one’s suspension of disbelief and violating the logical consistency (and thereby the believability) of their own world.

And what 453. Curious Cadet – May 17, 2014 said there is absolutely right. Trek should be getting better over time in such regards as science conceits, not worse. TOS had a full-time science consultant, so I’m inclined to think that they didn’t make many more such errors as the light-bulb laser, if any. And we give a TV show made in the 1960s more slack than a $150-$200 million dollar feature film made today. TOS INVENTED the entire premise of Trek. That more than earns their keep, despite the odd, uncharacteristic commission bad science. (I can’t think of any others like the light-bulb laser). TOS actually motivated many people to want to be scientists. Scientists were among the show’s biggest supporters.

BR, on the other hand, has simply exploited the names, likenesses and backstories invented by TOS, and they have more prevalent and worse bad science. They’re not thoughtful about their scientific conceits and they don’t come up with thought-provoking science-fiction. Say what you will about the Genesis Device, but you can’t deny that it raised the issue of hubris with respect to scientific and technological progress. Thoughtfulness and reasonable care.

475. Red Dead Ryan – May 17, 2014

Honestly, I think its high time that Cygnus moved on. He’s been rambling on and on continuously about the bad science (according to him) in BR Trek versus the good science (according to him) in the prime universe Trek.

Are we going to get into this sort of thing again? I don’t like what you’re saying so shut up and go away?

You’re oversimplifying the issue of bad science. All scientific conceits are not created equal. What it all boils down to is thoughtfulness and reasonable care. TOS may have made the odd mistake, but they obviously cared enough to have a full-time science consultant, and their thought-provoking science conceits were far more numerous than the odd light-bulb laser faux pas. Further, given that they’re standing on the shoulders of giants and have an embarrassment of riches in terms of budget, BR should be even better than TOS in terms of their scientific conceits. But, in fact, BR has been much worse and hasn’t made up for their sloppy science with thought-provoking scientific conceits yielding good stories and meaningful themes. In the BR movies, scientific conceits are only used as deus ex machina devices, and they are done stupidly, without thoughtfulness and reasonable care—a supernova threatening the ENTIRE GALAXY??? a freshman taking Astrophysics 101 would know better. Orci could have just gone any college campus one afternoon and asked any physics professor or astrophysics student. But he didn’t bother. $150 million budget for their science-fiction movie and they didn’t value science enough to spend a few thousand bucks on a science consultant for it. Thoughtfulness and reasonable care.

483. Keachick (Rose) - May 17, 2014

JJ Abrams needs to be congratulated because now there is a way to show the passage of time via the wardrobe changes made by the main characters. The flow on and continuing in the spirit of subtle impressionism is that we see Dr McCoy remove garments, and slowly put on clean garments, while the camera shows the front of his torso.

Where the journey is obviously a long one, which could include a trip made to New Vulcan, the same scene can be shown with both Kirk and Spock (not necessarily the two sharing the scene), changing from one set of clothing to another. Showing any or all these people, by themselves, taking a shower, sonic or otherwise, would also indicate the passage of time. The passage of time is not properly indicated by only seeing the head and shoulders of said gentlemen – just so you know.

The Kirk/Spock/McCoy triumvirate truly stepping up in the best of ways, especially since these characters inhabit such attractive bodies at this time.

Marja – what do you think of my idea, based on JJ Abrams’ keen sense of impressionism? Could you see, eg Spock and Uhura sharing a shower and then dressing into their uniforms before going on duty, as being an excellent way of indicating the passage of time? I can certainly see a similar scene working for Kirk as well.

484. Mike Barnett - May 17, 2014

Bob Orci:

Perhaps you could hire Cygnus-X1 as your plot hole/science consultant!

478. Disinvited
I didn’t get too hung-up in the travel time to Vulcan thingy but when I saw that for the first time in ST09, I remembered a line from the end of TMP where Scotty told Spock they could have him back on Vulcan after X-number of days.

485. Marja - May 17, 2014

475 RDR, Indeed, but I’m sure all the other science was much more grounded in reality ;-)

483 Rose, LOL, Yes indeedy, since we’ve seen the ladies changing clothes in the previous two films, I would fully support seeing the gents changing theirs. Or perhaps some mutual clothing removal between a gent and his lady. Spock and Uhura leap to my mind for some reason!

Or, as I’ve said, seeing any of our characters off duty with a friend or lover, having a drink and doing some handy plot exposition thru conversation, or going to sleep or waking up with a Red Alert disturbing their rest — indication of time again, and an indication that the crew of the Enterprise have private lives that are sometimes disturbed for urgent duties. 30 seconds to two minutes per scene so nobody has a heart attack over how long these “dreary” private scenes take.

Oh yes, since the uniform change for shuttle flights is now de rigeur, I am quite sure that Mssrs. Pine, Urban and Quinto could indicate the passage of time by slowly changing their uniforms, yes indeed, while discussing the mission. They’ve worked hard to maintain their wonderful physical appearances, so why not. As Spock says in WOK, “Sauce for the goose ….”

Now this will be sexism if a scene of undies-only men is displayed prominently in every magazine article and movie or TV advertisement.

484 Mike Barnett, Agreed! Cygnus — from all the comments he’s made regarding plotlines and story arcs and character motivations — would be excellent. I mean that sincerely! As to his relentless attention to matters of scientific accuracy, these might be the times Bob encourages Cygnus to go get some lunch ;-)

486. Marja - May 17, 2014

482 Cygnus “Say what you will about the Genesis Device, but you can’t deny that it raised the issue of hubris with respect to scientific and technological progress.”

So … Red Matter didn’t do this? Spock’s mission to save Romulus with this great Vulcan discovery didn’t backfire?

Scotty’s experiment in trans-warp beaming was not hubris? And he experienced no consequences? The consequences reverberate from Admiral Archer’s prize beagle to Khan escaping Federation justice.

Though I am still very bugged by the lack of security around Federation and Starfleet Headquarters and around Earth. Whut.

487. Disinvited - May 17, 2014

#483. Keachick (Rose) – May 17, 2014

Finally, we have an explanation for the necessity of including a Carol Marcus clothes changing scene: it was necessary to show travel time is elapsing reasonably in the on screen narrative! It harkens back to the original THE TIME MACHINE movie’s use of changing styles on the store window mannequin. And I thought THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. bongo wipes were clever in their day!

488. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

Over here in Canada, Showcase is showing Star Trek 09 tonight :-)

====================
Star Trek

The cast: Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, Leonard Nimoy
The Showcase synopsis: “Brash young James T. Kirk tries to live up to his father’s legacy as a vengeful, time-traveling Romulan creates black holes to destroy the Federation one planet at a time.”

The original 1960s Star Trek series was great. Although admittedly its go-to scenario involved a bunch of folks in blue and yellow uniforms staring off at a screen while looking kind of intense.

Sure, this worked nicely for 73 episodes, but let’s face it: present-day audiences want more razzle dazzle. That’s where the 2009 franchise reboot comes into play.

This time around there’s way more action. And I’m not just talking about Kirk getting it on with Uhura’s green college roommate – bah-ZING!

http://www.showcase.ca/blogs/5381/weekend-movies-superheroes-jet-streams-and-giant-sink-holes

489. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

@ 487. Disinvited – May 17, 2014

“#483. Keachick (Rose) – May 17, 2014

Finally, we have an explanation for the necessity of including a Carol Marcus clothes changing scene: it was necessary to show travel time is elapsing reasonably in the on screen narrative!”

Agreed! Next time we need a 10 minutes group shower scene & while we are at it, we should call the movie Star Trek Into the Shower :-)

490. dmduncan - May 17, 2014

482. Cygnus-X1 – May 17, 2014

The main point in the difference between TOS and BR with regard to scientific conceits: thoughtfulness and reasonable care. BR has shown A LACK OF thoughtfulness or reasonable care with regard to their scientific conceits, and their bad science is worse and more prevalent than it was in TOS. And they’ve had all the advantages of not having to think up the premise of their movie series because TOS already did the heavy lifting.

***

What I enjoy about good written SF is a story built around some hard scientific idea that is extraordinary, and that you just can’t do with any other genre.

ST.09 actually did do that by building an emotional story through MWI/QM.

But even if they could have done better — and by that I mean more hard science fictionish — I can’t agree with you that they did something uncharacteristic of Star Trek.

I think fans have worked much harder than the producers of the TV series ever did in trying to explain the science behind their nonchalant writing.

And Spock saying, in ST.09, that the supernova threatened the galaxy is like Spock saying, in STiD, that he’d be “happy to accompany the away team.”

You could certainly read it literally, but as Spock explains to Kirk in the latter scene, he DOES use colloquial expressions. That is, Spock DOES speak informally. Every word out of his mouth is not hard science. He is surrounded by humans and he has learned to use their expressions.

491. Disinvited - May 17, 2014

#482. Cygnus-X1 – May 17, 2014

Besides, dm is being a tad disingenuous trying to give the impression Spock was using some standard ruby crystals he found in a local outcropping or the local civilization’s drugstore. They were precursor’s of ST6’s Viridium patches, crystals refined by 23rd century industry so as to resonate a clear and strong return ping for transporter retrieval, a supped up version of our current rfid tag if you will. And the bulb clearly was indigenous and not of 20th century Earth manufacture with no indication of its wattage given or its efficiency as to producing visible light, i.e. it could have been producing visible lumens of an apparent earth standard 60 watt bulb while wastefully emitting 300 watts of infrared.

Not to mention the show’s entire energy producing 23rd century conceit is that the civilization has so mastered energy build up and release in di-lithium CRYSTALS so as to manipulate energies that the ship could manage to show up to said planet for the episode in the first place. I mean it stands to reason they might know a thing or two about building up enough energy between 2 “Federation” refined crystals to melt a lock using an available source of photons.

One thing I do know about in our real world is that actual prisoners don’t have any problems availing themselves of the electrical power extractable when such prison cell light source is provided. They rig wires from it and make mincemeat of their locks. Not as instantaneous, mind you, but still as effective an escape.

492. Keachick (Rose) - May 17, 2014

#482 – “It’s not “out there” in the Trek world causing logical-consistency issues and plot holes indefinitely into the future like Red Matter or Magic Blood or a duffel-bag mega-transporter which can beam anyone to another quadrant of the galaxy instantly. Think about the implications of Red Matter for the BR Trek world. One drop, which you can carry around (in a duffel bag) can destroy a planet. Or Magic Blood. That one is fairly obvious. Bones hath cured Death!”

I am beginning to think that you and others are complete idiots. You just don’t get it. You keep calling these plot holes. You have no clue as to what you are talking about. Red matter was not carried around in a duffel bag or anything akin to such nor would it be. Bones hath cured nothing of the kind. The portable transwarp beaming device cannot just beam anyone anywhere in the quadrant or replace starships, as some idiots have suggested.

It seems that those like Cygnus and I am not Herbert would rather Star Trek have their own idiot non-science than good science, which is what most of BR Star Trek contains.

I don’t know if there is not some supernova out there that might not threaten a whole galaxy or if one has not destroyed a galaxy already. I doubt you know either. Besides, it all depends on the size of the galaxy. Not all galaxies are the same size. Once again – stupid nitpicking.

I apologize but this stupidity is something that has been repeated over the last five years and no matter how many explanations, many of them scientifically based are posted, the CygnusX1 and others still insist on repeating this ignorant crap.

493. Jonboc - May 17, 2014

…the funny thing is watching these same folks arguing about the improbable merits of “Red Matter” and “magic blood”….in the context of a universe that has matter transportation, warp speed, Organians and Gary Mitchell.

Really??
LoL

494. Keachick (Rose) - May 17, 2014

I do wonder if nuKirk and Spock have discovered that 3D chess set yet…more ways to show time passing

Remember folks – it is NOT a sin to show skin and play a riveting game of 3D chess! They can be fully attired later. After all, how long does it take to throw on a gold, blue or red shirt. Obviously, a good deal of time for the good doctor…I guess there wouldn’t be time for a game of 3D chess or much else…LOL

Bob Orci – God, I love you guys…:)

495. dmduncan - May 17, 2014

491. Disinvited – May 17, 2014

You are joking, right?

496. Ahmed - May 17, 2014

@492. Keachick (Rose)

“I don’t know if there is not some supernova out there that might not threaten a whole galaxy or if one has not destroyed a galaxy already. I doubt you know either. Besides, it all depends on the size of the galaxy. Not all galaxies are the same size. Once again – stupid nitpicking.”

Absolutely true; galaxies comes in all shapes and sizes, from the very large like the IC 1101 galaxy to the a tiny marble sized galaxy like the Arquilian Galaxy, where you can put it on your cat’s collar!

497. Disinvited - May 17, 2014

#495. dmduncan – May 17, 2014

With regards to actual prisoners using electricity available from standard incandescent sockets to effect escape, no.

With regards to everything else in speculating about 23rd century tech, well it wouldn’t be STAR TREK if we couldn’t try.

498. Marja - May 17, 2014

496 Ahmed, “galaxies comes in all shapes and sizes, from the very large like the IC 1101 galaxy to the a tiny marble sized galaxy like the Arquilian Galaxy, where you can put it on your cat’s collar!”

My cat had an Arquilian Galaxy on her collar but lost it. Weeks later I find it under my refrigerator. No wonder my food tastes outta this world, ba-DUM-bump!

499. DarExc - May 17, 2014

Good luck boborci, keep up with the fun of the last two and don’t forget the past 5 series and you’ll do great in the “big chair” behind the camera.

500. Phil - May 17, 2014

@445. Well, as several other posters have done an excellent job pointing out the numerous flaws in your Trek science proposition, there isn’t much point in adding a few other examples I can think of.

Seems to me the Sci-fi police officer has no clothes. You may want to put a robe on to avoid embarrassing yourself further…

501. Buzz Cagney - May 18, 2014

#494 while I kind of get your point warp speed, transporters etc are very much central pillars of Trek and always have been. Red matter and KhanCureBlood were simply easy fixes. Easy, lazy and not at all clever. And thats what makes them hard to swallow.

502. Buzz Cagney - May 18, 2014

sorry, #493

503. Buzz Cagney - May 18, 2014

#484 A wardrobe change is too subtle and, in all fairness, I can do a complete change of clothes in about 45 seconds!

504. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

491. Disinvited – May 17, 2014

Thank you for the Trek due-diligence there. And…

Fascinating.

505. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

484. Mike Barnett – May 17, 2014

Bob Orci: Perhaps you could hire Cygnus-X1 as your plot hole/science consultant!

485. Marja – May 17, 2014

484 Mike Barnett, Agreed! Cygnus — from all the comments he’s made regarding plotlines and story arcs and character motivations — would be excellent. I mean that sincerely! As to his relentless attention to matters of scientific accuracy, these might be the times Bob encourages Cygnus to go get some lunch ;-)

I’LL DO IT!

So long as I can still come here and complain about plot holes and bad science in the new Trek movie.

Uh…wait a minute…

506. Elias Javalis - May 18, 2014

Bob, Can you describe Par. Execs reaction for the Treatment of the new Script?

Without revealing anything!

507. Stephan - May 18, 2014

506. Elias Javalis

I think, they hate it. ;)

508. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

486. Marja – May 17, 2014

482 Cygnus “Say what you will about the Genesis Device, but you can’t deny that it raised the issue of hubris with respect to scientific and technological progress.”

So … Red Matter didn’t do this? Spock’s mission to save Romulus with this great Vulcan discovery didn’t backfire?

Scotty’s experiment in trans-warp beaming was not hubris? And he experienced no consequences? The consequences reverberate from Admiral Archer’s prize beagle to Khan escaping Federation justice.

Orci and Kurtzman didn’t do it.

You’re doing it. And I know you well enough by now to know how much you like to do the writers’ jobs for them while you’re watching the movie. But, the difference between the Genesis Device and the BR examples is that the issue relating to the Genesis Device was actually discussed in the movie and presented as a theme. There’s a lesson talked about relating to Genesis. The ever-wary, old-fashioned country doctor, McCoy, raises the issue. No such thematic treatment by Orci/Kurtzman relating to any of their scientific conceits. Again, this goes to the purpose of the scientific conceit within the story.

Nick Meyer’s purpose was in the tradition of TOS (as he discusses in the clip above). Meyer was thoughtful about what he was doing. In the BR movies, the scientific conceits are always just for plot convenience (as, too often, are the characters’ behaviors) and nothing else. There’s no science about Red Matter or Transwarp beaming. They’re just a magic wands being waved in the air for the sole purpose of getting the characters from point A to point B in the plot. Kirk meets Scotty down on a planet. Why on a planet? Because Kirk has to run into Spock somehow, and Spock is down on the planet. So, how to get Kirk and new friend Scotty back up to the Enterprise? The deus ex machina of transwarp beaming. And nothing further is said about it. Same with Red Matter. This is why people complaining that BR Trek isn’t science fiction. The people making TOS and its spin-offs valued science. The people making those movies and shows had certain sensibilities about science. They were consciously making science fiction. BR lacks those values and sensibilities. They’re making comic-book-style fantasy/action movies.

Though I am still very bugged by the lack of security around Federation and Starfleet Headquarters and around Earth. Whut.

ME TOO!!!

Not a single guard, sentry, automated sensor, radar, sonar, distant-early-warning system, satellite GPS, phaser, laser, missile, air-craft or even a NET to provide the slightest defense against Khan’s lazy Sunday afternoon helicopter jaunt to attack the most important building in the Federation!

509. metronome - May 18, 2014

@496 Ahmed

But it was very clear which galaxy was referred to; the galaxy they reside in. And no supernova can destroy a galaxy of that size. Can a TNT explosion destroy earth? Can even an atom bomb destroy the whole planet? That’s absurd. And that’s only one of the absurdities in that movie. You can try to come up with some explanations, but none will hold water.

@493 Jonboc

All those concepts, like transporter, warp speed, and even Gary Mitchell’s extrasensory abilities have some scientific basis while red matter has none. And Kahn’s blood (and I intentionally spell it Kahn, because he is a Caucasian) doesn’t make much sense either. Although we could compare it to nano probes, for example, like the ones used by the ST race the Borg (in reality the nano technology is still in its infancy, but it is being applied), but then there are other problems like how could a more advanced technological achievement come from a less technologically advanced era, and so on.

I agree with Cygnus here. They have to work on that and fix such mistakes before they enter the script, let alone the screen. Star Trek has always been concerned with scientific concepts and application of such concepts in a fictional and hypothetical environment. To ignore that is to neglect one of the fundamental aspects of ST.

510. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

490. dmduncan – May 17, 2014

What I enjoy about good written SF is a story built around some hard scientific idea that is extraordinary, and that you just can’t do with any other genre. ST.09 actually did do that by building an emotional story through MWI/QM.

I enjoy that, too. But remember… All of the discussion relating to MWI/QM came from Orci here at this sitein advance of the movie. I agree that MWI/QM is a fascinating idea ripe for science fiction, but there wasn’t a peep about that issue in ST09. All there was in the movie was the premise of a parallel/alternate which has been utilized in Trek many times since its introduction in TOS, “Mirror, Mirror.” Orci simply lifted that idea from Trek past. Incidentally, in choosing the MWI/QM, Orci went with the least popular (among physicists) explanation for parallel universes—Cosmic Inflation (a field of study since 1980, recently corroborated by astrophysical evidence) would have been the best choice for a Multiverse rationale—but, I can’t fault him too much for that, as clearly put forth some effort. But, that’s about the only such effort at scientific care evidenced in relation to either movie, and again, it’s not even in the movie. For an example of how a related scientific concept can be thoughtfully used in Trek, check out treatment of extra-dimensional space in Star Trek Phase II, World Enough and Time.

I think fans have worked much harder than the producers of the TV series ever did in trying to explain the science behind their nonchalant writing.

Fans have the benefit of being Monday morning quarterbacks, that’s for sure. But, if you go back and watch especially TOS and TNG, there’s really no mistaking how much effort and thoughtfulness was involved regarding the science. TNG especially made use of theories that were pretty new at the time. The Heisenberg Compensator is a great example of reasonable care and thoughtfulness. There’s a fairly advanced Applied Science conceit right there, and it arose out of fans raising the issue over the years that transporter technology would have to violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (a decades-old, well-established physical rule). The folks at TNG obviously cared and valued science enough to address the issue with a rather clever, expeditious scientific conceit which hit the ball back into the fans’ court.

And Spock saying, in ST.09, that the supernova threatened the galaxy is like Spock saying, in STiD, that he’d be “happy to accompany the away team.” You could certainly read it literally, but as Spock explains to Kirk in the latter scene, he DOES use colloquial expressions. That is, Spock DOES speak informally. Every word out of his mouth is not hard science. He is surrounded by humans and he has learned to use their expressions.

Come on, now. This one is just unmistakable. That’d be like a professional scientist recounting a story about how a tusnami threatened his town by saying that the tsunami threatened the ENTIRE PLANET EARTH! There’s just no way. Not even if he was drunk would he say something so goofy unless he was joking. No, Spock’s “…galaxy…” error was definitely lack of reasonable care on the part of the writers. Again, that sort of obvious, entry-level mistake would not have escaped the attention of a science consultant.

511. Disinvited - May 18, 2014

#504. Cygnus-X1 – May 18, 2014

You are welcome. And for completeness sake here is a treatise on the Earth 21st century standard modern incandescent light bulbs’ efficiencies:

http://archive.today/fkG9W

As you can see (pun intended), it converts less than 5% of the energy it consumes measured in electrical watts to visible light and the earlier bulbs even less so. The point being most of the energy consumed is emitted in a form we can’t see and EasyBake Ovens put to better use.

Also our modern LASER metal cutters with similar problems in electrical energy conversion efficiencies start at 150W. In the century prior to our current one in which my state has “outlawed” them, incandescent bulbs of 300W power consuming variety in the commonly recognized shape with a slightly modified screw in base for the increased power transfer existed. I know because I own one.

To further hit home the point of the supposed common place “ruby” crystals used, the narrative clearly establishes that the crystals Spock used weren’t rubies but “rubindium” whose properties can’t help but be subjected to speculation as our culture hasn’t discovered it yet.

512. Disinvited - May 18, 2014

# 509. Cygnus-X1 – May 18, 2014

”All there was in the movie was the premise of a parallel/alternate which has been utilized in Trek many times since its introduction in TOS, “Mirror, Mirror.”” — Cygnus-X1

Actually, I believe it was introduced even before that, in THE ALTERNATIVE FACTOR with the TWZish bi-polarish Lazarus. Bandage OFF. Bandage ON.

513. metronome - May 18, 2014

@496 Ahmed

But it was very clear which galaxy was referred to; the galaxy they reside in. And no supernova can destroy a galaxy of that size. Can a TNT explosion destroy earth? Can even an atom bomb destroy the whole planet? That’s absurd. And that’s only one of the absurdities in that movie. You can try to come up with some explanations, but none will hold water.

514. metronome - May 18, 2014

@493 Jonboc

All those concepts, like transporter, warp speed, and even Gary Mitchell’s extrasensory abilities have some scientific basis while red matter has none. And Kahn’s blood (and I intentionally spell it Kahn, because he is a Caucasian) doesn’t make much sense either. Although we could compare it to nano probes, for example, like the ones used by the ST race the Borg (in reality the nano technology is still in its infancy, but it is being applied), but then there are other problems like how could a more advanced technological achievement come from a less technologically advanced era, and so on.

I agree with Cygnus here. They have to work on that and fix such mistakes before they enter the script, let alone the screen. Star Trek has always been concerned with scientific concepts and application of such concepts in a fictional and hypothetical environment. To ignore that is to neglect one of the fundamental aspects of ST.

515. Disinvited - May 18, 2014

#460. Marja – May 17, 2014

I thank you for the elucidation.

And I can’t deny pondering a Kathryn Bigelow Trek, either.

516. metronome - May 18, 2014

Oops. I didn’t see that my post was already there. I would delete 513 & 514, but it’s not possible. Doesn’t matter.

517. dmduncan - May 18, 2014

509. Cygnus-X1 – May 18, 2014

Come on, now. This one is just unmistakable. That’d be like a professional scientist recounting a story about how a tusnami threatened his town by saying that the tsunami threatened the ENTIRE PLANET EARTH! There’s just no way. Not even if he was drunk would he say something so goofy unless he was joking. No, Spock’s “…galaxy…” error was definitely lack of reasonable care on the part of the writers. Again, that sort of obvious, entry-level mistake would not have escaped the attention of a science consultant.

***

I just don’t agree with you. This is why I once said you are a true believer. You have a hard time seeing more than one reasonable interpretation of things. I’m not scientifically ignorant, yet Spock’s statement did not bug me from the first time I heard it, because I read it differently than you did.

That example isn’t comparable. Space is so vast that it easily makes one prone to exaggerated language about it. That’s why in Firefly it was perfectly acceptable for the characters to speak of the solar system as “the ‘Verse,” short for “Universe.”

Couple the loss of several important star systems — which is a more reasonable interpretation than literally the galaxy — with the aftereffects through the rest of the Federation, and the situation is vague enough and Spock’s statement conversational enough, that it could mean different things, none of them frustrating, at least not for me.

Even so, when scientists today talk about global warming being a threat to the planet or to life on Earth — that is pure 100% BS. I read one story which claimed that global warming was the greatest threat to life on Earth in the history of the planet!

Garbage.

Life on earth is doing fine after numerous mass extinctions and we may not even be here had the last one not happened. Life is a team sport. Sometimes players get retired.

Likewise, the planet will be fine. It’s human culture that will go up in smoke and will have to reform.

So we see that kind of language today by scientists who use it to influence emotions and call people to action. It’s not literally true even though they want you to think it is. And sometimes, as in the case of Firefly and Spock’s adopted colloquialisms, it’s just that people do not only speak literally; they also speak artfully.

510. Disinvited – May 18, 2014

“To further hit home the point of the supposed common place “ruby” crystals used, the narrative clearly establishes that the crystals Spock used weren’t rubies but “rubindium” whose properties can’t help but be subjected to speculation as our culture hasn’t discovered it yet.”

Well maybe you boys forgot, but NONE of what you said about your imaginary science does anything at all to make the science of that scene any better, and THAT is the context of the discussion which you are going outside of.

I’m not one of those who needs an accurate or plausible theory to back up what they are doing onscreen to enjoy the action — and there are no such theories for all the examples I gave. There is only what you choose to tell yourself so that you stop picking at the scabs.

So the question is, if one is willing to torque things that hard to explain something in TOS which has no theory to back it up, why would one not be willing to do the same for Red Matter in ST.09?

After all, Rubindium was also RED. You might even call it the first piece of RED MATTER that has all the properties necessary to move the story along by getting Spock out of his cage.

518. Curious Cadet - May 18, 2014

@508. Cygnus-X1,
“Not a single guard, sentry, automated sensor, radar, sonar, distant-early-warning system, satellite GPS, phaser, laser, missile, air-craft or even a NET to provide the slightest defense against Khan’s lazy Sunday afternoon helicopter jaunt to attack the most important building in the Federation!”

Know your audience. Something I think Orci took for granted.

I can explain it easily in Orci’s hell-bent desire to make his movie a metaphor for the changes brought about by 9/11. In 2001, security in the US was just as lax. Today, we are all hyper-aware of security issues, and no doubt another tragedy like the World Trade Center attack could not likely happen. So, the Federation naively took for granted it was safe as it always had been, which would have permitted the attack. The problem is, Marcus was portrayed as a security freak, and he was well past that kind of thinking, as it appeared was the Starfleet he controlled. And anybody following from the last movie would know the 9/11 moment already happened with the destruction of Vulcan. Moreover, the audience is well past that kind of thinking in the real world and there was no foundation for the analogy in the film.

But what kind of care could we expect from writers who had four years to crank out the script, but from all accounts only managed it in the 11th hour, while they were simultaneously producing and writing multiple TV series and film projects, and then tasked with grafting Khan onto their villain?

519. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

511. Disinvited – May 18, 2014

Actually, I believe it was introduced even before that, in THE ALTERNATIVE FACTOR with the TWZish bi-polarish Lazarus. Bandage OFF. Bandage ON.

You’re right. It occurred to me as I was typing, but I forgot to go back when I was done and look it up. The Alternative Factor was S.1, ep.27. Mirror, Mirror was S.2 ep.4.

Thanks again!

520. CecilofRil - May 18, 2014

Cygnus-X1 and most of the other “Nu-Trek” haters:

Let’s look at the deus ex machina for a moment. You complain that “deus ex machina” of “transwarp beaming” was used to get Kirk and Scott to the Enterprise from the planet. Well, how about the deus ex machina of the “Genesis planet” giving life to an (obviously) dead Spock? Or the deus ex machina that his consciousness is “kept alive” in Bones. Or how about the deus ex machina that they can “slingshot around the sun” (not once, but TWICE) to save the earth from a probe hell bent on destroying the earth after all the whales disappear.

Most of science fiction is rife with “deus ex machina.” The fact of which you are blind to, apparently. Except when it comes to BR Trek.

Let’s also discuss the “bad science” for a moment. Where are you drawing your conclusions from? I don’t get your references, since “bad science” is what science fiction is all about. Because some things don’t truly exist in the real world, the writers come up with them to create the illusion of “science.” I mean, c’mon. Total desert planets that can sustain life (miraculously) and transporters. That’s “bad science,” as characterized by yours (and others) posts. But, since they exist in the Prime Universe, then hey, let’s overlook that! But, Red Matter and “magic blood,” oh, that’s off limits! It’s like you just want to hate on Nu-Trek because it destroyed your “illusions” of what you think “Trek” is.

It might be time for ol’ CecilofRil to do what he does best. Review the Trek movies in an honest, “unbiased” way. I might need to pick them apart and see how they function according to your “rules” about “science” and “science fiction.” See if they hold to your “interpretations” of what you think the rules actually are. How about that?

521. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

517. dmduncan – May 18, 2014

Space is so vast that it easily makes one prone to exaggerated language about it. That’s why in Firefly it was perfectly acceptable for the characters to speak of the solar system as “the ‘Verse,” short for “Universe.”

In Firefly, they spoke of “the Verse” in order to be inclusive of everything or to exaggerate—“best pilot in the Verse,” for example. And the people talking like that in Firefly were the exact opposite of trained scientists and precise logicians, like Spock Prime. So, I don’t see that example as related.

Couple the loss of several important star systems — which is a more reasonable interpretation than literally the galaxy — with the aftereffects through the rest of the Federation, and the situation is vague enough and Spock’s statement conversational enough, that it could mean different things, none of them frustrating, at least not for me.

The only planet mentioned being in danger was Romulus. Spock wasn’t out saving multiple entire star systems.

Even so, when scientists today talk about global warming being a threat to the planet or to life on Earth — that is pure 100% BS.

Scientists don’t talk like that unless they’re dumbing it down for a lay audience. Climate change is a threat to humans and to other organisms, but not to the cohesion or integrity of the planet Earth. It’s not as though the planet is going to blow up as a result of climate change. When they speak about climate change being a threat, scientists are talking about the threat [to us]. That’s the implication—“to us.”

Spock saying “galaxy” can mean only one thing: He was concerned about the supernova being a threat to species across the entire galaxy, which is the inaccurate part.

An analogous example regarding climate scientists would be if they said that climate change was a threat to the solar system (or to the galaxy). Clearly that is not accurate. And it’s not as if “a threat to the galaxy” is a colloquial phrase used to mean various things that even a Spock who was dumbing down his precise account of the events leading to his being on Delta Vega in the Alternate Universe would have said. Spock was relaying information to Kirk. He had no reason to exaggerate anything, and it would be extremely out of character for him to do so, not only as a Vulcan but as a science officer! This one has nothing to do with my being a “true believer.” It was just sloppy writing.

522. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

511. Disinvited – May 18, 2014

You’ve sold me!

Let the record reflect that the light-bulb laser could have been physically plausible given the right materials.

523. Tom - May 18, 2014

I wonder how Bob is approaching the 50th anniversary movie? I mean is it just a movie that happens to be coming out during the 50th anniversary? Was it factored in any way into their thinking while writing?

524. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

518. Curious Cadet – May 18, 2014

I can explain it easily in Orci’s hell-bent desire to make his movie a metaphor for the changes brought about by 9/11. In 2001, security in the US was just as lax.

Today we know that the 9/11 attacks happened because the Bush Administration (Condi Rice in particular) did not act on information given them by US intelligence in advance of the attack. If Orci was going for that sort of a theme, he certainly gave no indication of it in the movie. The US had defenses against the 9/11 attack, but they were not deployed. There’s another theme that could have been explored in STID but wasn’t. Like you said, neither of those themes would have been consistent with the Admiral Marcus character and his motives in STID, anyway.

525. Disinvited - May 18, 2014

# 514. metronome – May 18, 2014

“…how could a more advanced technological achievement come from a less technologically advanced era, and so on.” — metronome

That’s an easy one. Because human history is rife with upheavals that causes setbacks, such as the destruction of the library at Alexandria, and then rediscovery of what was lost, such as in the Renaissance. The point being Trek history says another World War came after Khan’s rule. Thus whole branches of discoveries and knowledge could have been lost in that and Khan could be valuable as a master of lost technological and scientific knowledge. STID’s weakness is it didn’t bother to build on that aspect in which Khan would have been a Greek teacher to the Federation as the new Romans. Instead, they went with his superior intellect as some sort of biological supercomputer able to outstrip scientific advancement of any in the Federation, even the Vulcan’s with Daystrom’s duotronics at their disposal.

I’m not sure Khan as Trek’s Lex Luthor is necessarily a bad idea so much as STID squandered its opportunity to reboot him as such in an sensible and interesting fashion. This new role for Khan required an origin tale more than a goofy surprise “unmasking”. And I don’t mean an origin covering his antics 200 years prior but rather how he became Marcus’ Thomas Alva Edison.

526. Cervantes - May 18, 2014

The plain fact is, that some of us were hoping for something a little less ‘fantastical’ when it came up to made up plot devices for these new big screen Treks…and something a little more ‘believable’.

Sure, it’s a franchise that’s had it’s fair share of howlers over the years over the years when it comes to plot devices…but it just a pity that too many scripts and storyline plots these days, don’t match the sophistication of today’s effects technology. These reboots are certainly not the worst examples out there, but somehow I expected more for these new updated versions of Trek.

Still, if we can even tone down on ‘Keenser’ a little for the next one, then that will be an improvement going forward.

527. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

512. Disinvited – May 18, 2014

When I’m done with this run-through of DS9, I need to go back and re-watch TOS. Looking at the episode list, so many good concepts there….

528. Ralph Pinheiro - May 18, 2014

Mr. Bob Orci

Could you give me an up-to-date position about script?

529. Duncan - May 18, 2014

472. boborci – May 17, 2014
469. Who knows what the future holds, but Star Trek is surely in it in some form or another, as it has been longer than I have been alive.
————————————–
First, congratulations. I know you will do a great job.

*thumbs up*

Second, while I may be a massive Trekker, I have to also acknowledge that “Star Trek” and “Star Wars” are preventing science-fiction from growing. I want both franchises to live well into the future; however, I also think they have inadvertently caused problems for the genre. Outside of the “Star Trek” franchise, the only other ‘thought provoking’ science-fiction anthology is “Terminator”. When it comes to “Star Wars”, the franchise does not explore theoretical insights into human existence.

Can anyone name a ‘theatrical’ and ‘television’ science-fiction anthology, outside of “Star Trek”, in which examines the deeper aspects of our existence?

“Star Trek” and “Star Wars” need to stand aside, so that franchises ‘similar’ to “Serenity”/”Firefly”, “Stargate”, “Dune”, and “Millennium” can be turned into theatrical and television anthologies. FYI – “Millennium” the movie.

If ‘personal growth’ and ‘human evolution’ is to naturally occur, “Star Trek” and “Star Wars” should be overtaken by other franchises.

Even though I want “Star Trek” to live into the future, I also want to give movies such as “Prometheus” a chance to expand. “Prometheus” has so much potential. If the movie was allowed to breath, I think “Prometheus” can move out of pure horror and into the realm of “2001: A Space Odyssey”. Exploring the dark psychological aspect of our existence is just epic.

Again, I think you will do a great job.

I cannot wait to see what comes next.

Thank you for all your hard work.

530. Disinvited - May 18, 2014

#521. Cygnus-X1 – May 18, 2014

There’s something in the questions that dm asks and his style of writing that awakens memories I thought I’d never visit again.

Hugo Gernsback’s RADIO ELECTRONICS, building things from its pages, solder fumes…I was a very fortunate dude in the 60s. The Federal government had let lose funding for all sorts of public education in my school district with an eye towards technological advancements that I got to participate in. Field trips to The Naval Weapons Laboratory where I got to see (then cutting edge) lasers first hand, holograms, Cherenkov radiation’s eerie glow…

If, I may be so bold, I think what people don’t get about the type of science-fiction you and I enjoy is that it builds its speculations out of variations on preexisting themes in science and technology to use a musical analogy. It doesn’t set well with us when sf writers claim they have to throw the whole symphony out the window because their hero absolutely needs to be able to create blackholes on demand.

531. Marja - May 18, 2014

508 Cygnus, “You’re doing it. And I know you well enough by now to know how much you like to do the writers’ jobs for them while you’re watching the movie. But, the difference between the Genesis Device and the BR examples is that the issue relating to the Genesis Device was actually discussed in the movie and presented as a theme. There’s a lesson talked about relating to Genesis. The ever-wary, old-fashioned country doctor, McCoy, raises the issue. No such thematic treatment by Orci/Kurtzman relating to any of their scientific conceits. Again, this goes to the purpose of the scientific conceit within the story.

Nick Meyer’s purpose was in the tradition of TOS (as he discusses in the clip above). Meyer was thoughtful about what he was doing. In the BR movies, the scientific conceits are always just for plot convenience (as, too often, are the characters’ behaviors) and nothing else. There’s no science about Red Matter or Transwarp beaming. They’re just a magic wands being waved in the air for the sole purpose of getting the characters from point A to point B in the plot. Kirk meets Scotty down on a planet. Why on a planet? Because Kirk has to run into Spock somehow, and Spock is down on the planet. So, how to get Kirk and new friend Scotty back up to the Enterprise? The deus ex machina of transwarp beaming. And nothing further is said about it. Same with Red Matter.”

I think you’ll find, if you check the writing credits, that Nick Meyer was not the sole writer of WOK. Some gents named Bennett, Sowards, and Peeples had something to do with it, too, in the words of crusty AU McCoy ;-) But let us, going forward through my dissertation, remember: Meyer is of Our generation.

I, too, wish there had been conference room scenes with Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scott and Uhura discussing what the hell was going on and the scientific and moral implications of why it was happening and what they could do about it. In both NuTrek movies. But, [real-world] modern Tentpoles do not permit of slowing the action to have such. “WOK is so 32 years ago!”

Why was there no scene of Scott expressing his dismay about Starfleet confiscating his TransWarp equation? Oh, there was, Scotty mentions it in STiD in the “I thought we were explorers!” scene. Why was Scotty fooling around with it in the first place in JJTrek1? Because he was an engineer and scientist, and intrigued with a problem. [Sure came in handy though!] Why does TOS Scotty read technical journals?

I too have commented on the remarkable coinkydinks of a – Kirk getting cast off the Enterprise [and why, we might ask. Well, we may ask.] [Oh!] b – Kirk getting chased to a Certain Cave by a giant red thing. c – Why, look, here’s Elder Spock! d- Why can Elder Spock see Vulcan destroyed from a planet in proximity to Vulcan if Vulcan has no moon? [Now a novel- or fanfic-reader can tell you, the planet MAY be Vulcan's distant co-orbital "twin" planet, and MAY be designated Delta Vega by Starfleet but known by another name to Vulcans, but still ... close enough for Spock to see Vulcan's destruction in broad daylight? I doubt it. But Spock's expression was quite moving all the same.] e-WHY DESTROY VULCAN? Because it answers the plot of the AU arc, I guess. Disappointing, though. But moving!

Yes, I can be cynical and questioning and even condemning of many aspects of NuTrek, [and was about PrimeTrek as well] but I am weak, I am a pretty devoted Trek fan, meaning I love nearly all things Trek, though yes, I see their flaws. Like a dear spouse or friend, I still welcome Trek into my heart.

In my post #440 I address the problems as I see it of modern cinema [you should excuse the term being applied to Summer Tentpoles] as regard the differences between young and old folk, and here’s a little more, I hope it bears reading.

I recall a piqued Mr Orci commenting on “lazy viewers” who could not “fill in the blanks” in his scripts. Orci is close to a generation younger than I, and, I suspect, yourself as well, Cygnus. The generations following ours are used to elision in media and elucidating things for themselves on the internet [as we do here, ad infinitum, to my delight].

But many of them may not b*tch the way we older folk do about the way things are thought out or written. They’ve grown up on videogames [in which, I think, you, the consumer, can construct your character's background and make attributes for certain of her behaviors]. They’ve played The Sims, in which you [the consumer] construct an entire life, lives, a village, a city &c. The previous generation grew up on D&D, in which they also constructed characters and moved through a plot. Not always a very logically designed plot, but one ingeniously constructed to allow the characters to make life-or-death choices to achieve a goal. Tick, tick, tick.

This is not my way of saying these generations are unintelligent. It is my way of saying that they view media differently from the way we view media. For depth, they read books, or blog, or read other blogs examining questions of importance to them and share about it with friends. For passionate causes, they meet on the internet and in some cases, become Flashmobs to further freedom, democracy, or the 99%.

There is not the same amount of self-examination in mass pop culture, at least in our view; there seems no leisurely read-through of the Sunday Times; there seems no great coffeehouse discussion milieu, but there are coffeehouse poetry slams where the young speak of their life events and passions. It seems to some of us elders to be more public navel-gazing than we were ever comfortable with. Privacy of life and thought is not the same.

Is STID even 80% logical by our lights? No.

Does it make valid points? Yes, about war-mongering, about sympathy for the Devil so you can bend him to your ends, about hubris [lessons learned by Kirk and Marcus, certainly; Khan, doubtful], about feeling Too Secure To Be Attacked, and some others. About emotions, friendship, loveship [lessons learned by Spock and Uhura], yes.

Does it move people and events along like the analog clockworks on the bomb in Godzilla? YEP

And speaking of Godzilla, which was excellent for its genre, I made note of a First Person Shooter videogame type sequence in which the hero, having parachuted in to a site, goes seeking a goal … and thought, “ruh-roh, some of us already thought movies were going down the rabbit hole, look out now.”

Curmudgeonly yours, Dr. Marja McCoy

532. Mark James Tucker - May 18, 2014

IT looks like the 492 Rose Pity Party Express Train to fake victim lameville, has jumped the tracks yet again.

get over your self Rose

533. Marja - May 18, 2014

523 Cygnus, re: Curious comment
“Today we know that the 9/11 attacks happened because the Bush Administration (Condi Rice in particular) did not act on information given them by US intelligence in advance of the attack. If Orci was going for that sort of a theme, he certainly gave no indication of it in the movie.”

Didn’t Marcus WANT an attack on the Federation so he could justify “all-out war”? That fits in perfectly with the Truther claim that 9/11 was an inside job. That also fits in with the idea that he ordered no perimeter security at SFHQ [though Kirk was startled to note Security guards bearing huge phaser weapons in the lobby]. Many senior captains were dead after the attack and would not be there to question his actions. Conweeenient. However, this contravenes Marcus’s distrust in Khan. So maybe the message was, “the US was fat dumb & happy on 9/11 and the Federation was fat dumb & happy when Khan attacked them.”

“The US had defenses against the 9/11 attack, but they were not deployed. There’s another theme that could have been explored in STID but wasn’t.”

Yes, I would like to have seen some discussions on that, by god!

“Like you said, neither of those themes would have been consistent with the Admiral Marcus character and his motives in STID, anyway.”

Well, again, his motive was to fight the Klingons before they invaded Federation territory, to bring the war to them before they brought it to us. Consistent with Geo. W. Bush’s “war on ter’r” in which the US invaded a country that was not an actor in 9/11.

But to this viewer the pieces don’t all fit together in STiD. I re-watched it last night and sighed.

534. ironhyde - May 18, 2014

Best news I’ve heard from Star Trek since before STID. No good media, let alone any, came around for STID. But this news of Orci directing makes me very glad and satisfied. This is a good move by paramount. I wish Mr. Orci all the best.

535. Daoud The Sinfonian - May 18, 2014

Awesomesauce, boborci!
.
Wising you the best.

David

536. Phil - May 18, 2014

Well, it looks like Epix will be broadcasting Trek throughout the week, including STID. so there will be plenty of opportunity to scrutinize Epic bad science from start to finish…

Speaking of disasters, is everyone in the 23rd century a hipster?

537. Cygnus-X1 - May 18, 2014

533. Phil – May 18, 2014

Speaking of disasters, is everyone in the 23rd century a hipster?

If in the next movie Kirk sports a beard, upturned collar and anachronistic hat….

538. James - May 19, 2014

Orci might be bringing Trek back to TV as well!!!

http://news.sky.com/story/1154380/star-trek-to-boldly-return-to-tv-screens

539. Mike Barnett - May 19, 2014

534 James

Unfortunately, that article was from October 2013. I believe Bob has also said that CBS wasn’t interested in doing a TV series. I hope CBS will reconsider in a year or so. Launch a new series on September 8th 2016 – the exact date of the 50th anniversary (in the USA).

540. Curious Cadet - May 19, 2014

@529 Marja,
“But to this viewer the pieces don’t all fit together in STiD. I re-watched it last night and sighed”

Yes, I get the feeling Orci was writing a different movie than everyone else was making. Perhaps he will be a fine director afterall when he controls everything and the next film will make perfect sense. Of course we might just find the Emperor has no clothes. At least for the last two films he had the benefit of the doubt as a cog in the machine.

Either way my comments about security were in context of what the audience expects. And the audience expects security out the ying yang post 9/11. There was no groundwork laid for the audience to expect anything differently. As for the “truther” explanation, there was no groundwork laid for that either. Indeed, if that’s an interpretation Orci intended, the movie works awfully hard against it. For it to work, Marcus would have had to have completely manipulated Khan without his knowledge (which is an afront to the character of Khan), been working in consort with Khan and then double-crossed him, or more passively allowing Khan to unpredictably act and use his actions (whatever they may be) to his advantage (an affront to the character of Marcus). But nothing in the film sets up any of those scenarios, so we are left with what’s presented as one man acting alone, with only our own experiences from which to gauge Starfleets defenses — none of which make any sense in context with what is presented in-universe, nor our own real world experiences.

541. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

Nu-Kirk is walking with the Emissary!

http://www.startrek.com/article/first-look-the-q-gambit-part-2

542. I am not Herbert - May 19, 2014

CIA withholding information on flight MH370, and the Australian-led search for the plane off Western Australia is a waste of time and money:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/cia-withholding-information-on-flight-mh370-says-former-malaysian-pm-mahathir-mohamad-20140519-zrh0a.html

543. Hat Rick - May 19, 2014

I’ve been pretty vocal about my disappointment that it’s taken so long to even confirm that ST3 is in development. With Godzilla’s release this past weekend, there’s already talk of a sequel. It’s been more than a year since STID, and so far I don’t know that Paramount has confirmed that ST3 is due to be produced; it’s simply assumed.

I will once again complain about the fact that there is so little news about ST3 that the very fact that there is so little news is hardly noticed any more.

I’m glad we have this news of Bob Orci’s directorial assignment (as reported by Variety), but apparently even this is not official.

At this point, I should be seeing tidbits and promotional campaigns for ST3 if we are to see it in the next year or two. But so far, none.

At a similar point in 2010 in the aftermath of ST1 (2009), it seems we were all very much excited about ST2, but now ST3 still seems very distant and the chatter about it is almost nonexistent.

544. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

@539. Hat Rick

From IMDB:

Star Trek 3
Action | Adventure | Sci-Fi

The plot is unknown at this time.

Director: Roberto Orci
Writers: Patrick McKay, Roberto Orci, 2 more credits »

Production Notes from IMDbPro:

Status: Treatment/Outline
Comments: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay will co-write with Roberto Orci.

Trivia

In an interview, screenwriter Roberto Orci stated that Star Trek 3 would be more original and wanted it to stay in the classic Trek world.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2660888/

545. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

@539. Hat Rick

“At a similar point in 2010 in the aftermath of ST1 (2009), it seems we were all very much excited about ST2,”

And it took them FOUR YEARS!

546. Marja - May 19, 2014

539 Hat Rick, “in 2010 in the aftermath of ST1 (2009), it seems we were all very much excited about ST2, but now ST3 still seems very distant and the chatter about it is almost nonexistent.”

Maybe we learned from the lag between ST1 and ST2 not to hold our breath.

And, IAW Curious Cadet’s #536 pardon my satire, IMDB Pro:

Star Trek into Darkness
Action | Adventure | Sci-Fi

The plot is unknown at this time.

547. Hat Rick - May 19, 2014

Thanks for the response, Ahmed and Marja. It just seems like the excitement isn’t there for something of this scale. Are the fans finally changing their outlook, as Marja suggested? Whatever happened to all the debates about which Enterprise is the best version, Kirk versus Picard, who was the best doctor on TNG or on Trek as a whole, why Trek tech is way more advanced and powerful than Star Wars tech, etc., etc., etc.?

I actually miss those interminable debates. You know, guys, I was a regular on the AOL Trek boards and there just isn’t that kind of vehemence/interest anymore online, anywhere. I’m aware of various other bulletin boards but it’s just not the same. The intensity isn’t there.

Why oh why won’t anyone debate whether ST (2009) is better or worse than STID or whether the respective monster ships from each would totally destroy the Death Star? I miss that kind of crap.

548. Disinvited - May 19, 2014

#539. Hat Rick – May 19, 2014

Well, I was there in 2009 cautioning that people were building up what had occurred in that film to levels of meaning for Paramount that history shows weren’t warranted. Listen to Shatner reveal how it goes and note how familiar it seems:

https://archive.today/uvkXU

”Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, a smart, fast-paced, beautifully written and crafted film, had garnered terrific reviews, and made some money, but by the spring of ’92 was limping away from the box office, dragging a “disappointing” profit margin in its wake. The numbers? All told, the film had a budget of thirty million dollars and ultimately took in just over sixty million. And while doubling one’s investment is rarely described as “disappointing,” in Hollywood, where collagen cheek implants and pet psychics both make perfect sense, so does that statement. Let me illustrate.
Each of Star Trek’s first four cinematic voyages brought home just about a hundred million dollars at the box office. Star Trek V, my own beat-up, budget-begging baby, took in just over fifty million. Star Trek VI, a smash with the critics and bearing very good word of mouth, managed sixty, but no more. To Paramount’s bean counters, this was a sign from above. The glory days were clearly over. Knees jerked, numbers got crunched, backs got slapped, asses got kissed, and when all was said and done, Paramount’s suits decided to punt. It was time to switch to Plan B, a plan that would bring a fresher, younger, much much cheaper Enterprise crew to the silver screen.
Meanwhile, back on the television side of the Paramount lot, Star Trek: The Next Generation was rapidly making the jump from “cult favorite” to “runaway hit.” With good scripts, a great cast, and terrific special effects (for television anyway), the Enterprise redux spent the better part of 1991 proving itself as much more than just a pale imitation of the original series. But you already knew all that. What you probably don’t know is that even by the early spring of 1992, Paramount’s suits, along with the series’ Executive Producer Rick Berman, were already quietly planning to have the new series graduate to the silver screen. The film would be released two and a half years later, shortly after The Next Generation completed its initial seven-year television’ run. Berman told me:

Brandon Tartikoff was the executive who brought this all about. By the end of The Next Generation’s fourth season, he had already initiated a plan to take the series off the air just after our seventh. Y’know, a lot of the fans have been assuming that the studio decided only at the last minute to cancel [the series] and move it into the multiplex, but in fact, by the time it finally happened, it had been in the works for nearly three years.

In plainer terms, Star Trek’s graying, wrinkled, “classic” cast was officially doomed to the ice floes long before any of us ever officially saw it coming.
Meanwhile, given the green light, Rick Berman spent the better part of the next year facing dual dilemmas. First, he needed a whopping, surefire, motion-picture-sized storyline for his The Next Generation cast, and second, he knew that the premiere Next Gen feature would have to compare favorably with its half-dozen “classic” ancestors. It would also have to find some creative way to exorcise the ghosts of celluloid Star Treks past, to put three decades of “original series” history to bed, and to formally close the door on the “classic” franchise. At this point, the midnight oil started burning pretty frequently on the Paramount lot.

Holed up with screenwriters Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga, Berman spent endless hours downing takeout while tossing around rough story ideas. Hundreds of rejects found themselves wadded up in the trash bin before the trio hit upon something they liked. “What if,” they supposed, “we were to find Star Trek’s original cast in the U.S.S. Enterprise, battling against The Next Generation in their spiffy new Enterprise-D?” Bells, whistles, group hugs, fireworks…they’d cracked it! Ron Moore told me:

This was an idea that at first glance seemed unbeatable, I mean, imagine the hype of “Two crews in the war to settle the score, the brawl for it all — who will survive?” The best possible trailer you could ever hope to have for this picture would’ve found the two Enterprises battling against one another. We all loved the idea and tried our best, but we were never able to come up with any scenario that made both crews look heroic. No matter how we played around with this thing, somebody always came off looking like the bad guy.

Second problem: Add up the number of regular characters inhabiting both series, and you come up with an equation proving that “Classic cast plus The Next Generation is equal to 16 paychecks, 16 egos, and about 732,000 headaches in trying to keep all those wallets and self-images happy.” Despite the enormous dramatic potential, the “dueling Enterprise” storyline was scrapped in short order.” — William Shatner, GET A LIFE!

549. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 19, 2014

A 911-Trek storyline was a mistake.

Unless it’s a time travel story written in an attempt to blatantly expose what acutally ocurred.

They should have just named the damned movie – Star Trek 911.

550. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 19, 2014

544. Disinvited

Wow! Nioe post, Disinvited.

How they ever saw that scenario as an even battle is beyond me.

Picard would easily have a great advantage with a ship with 75 years of advanced technology. I would like to see some of the concepts, though.

551. dmduncan - May 19, 2014

521. Cygnus-X1 – May 18, 2014

Let the record reflect that the light-bulb laser could have been physically plausible given the right materials.

***

Let the record reflect that red matter could have been physically plausible given the right materials (i.e., materials that do exactly what the movie shows them doing).

Don’t fool yourselves.

552. dmduncan - May 19, 2014

The casts of Next Trek and Trek Classic battling each other in a movie is a terrible idea. It stinks.

553. Disinvited - May 19, 2014

#547. dmduncan – May 19, 2014

I’ve been patiently waiting for a post that I wrote in reply to Cygnus to come out of moderation that I believe went in because I used the word “ana|ogy”, so that I can address what for you is this apparent equivalency without being needlessly redundant.

Well, I guess it couldn’t hurt to repeat the compliment I made about there being something about your writing style and the questions you ask that awaken memories in me of long ago that I had pretty much resigned myself to believing I would not be able to revisit for the remainder of whatever long life I might have left. And I should formally express my gratitude to you for that as opposed to just leaving it implied as it was in that cloaked post. Thanks dm. It is always a pleasure to interact with you whether we see eye to eye or not.

554. boborci - May 19, 2014

545. TrekMadeMeWonder – May 19, 2014
A 911-Trek storyline was a mistake.

Unless it’s a time travel story written in an attempt to blatantly expose what acutally ocurred.

They should have just named the damned movie – Star Trek 911.

——-

Except it wasn’t a 911 story line. To summarize: Rogue admiral uses criminal for his own purposes by holding his family hostage Criminal escapes a targets Admiral and his peers of his own accord. Admiral sends Kirk on extrajudicial assassination mission. Kirks questions his orders and exposes rogue admiral as rogue admiral and brings terrorist to trial. Values of the federation upheld by Kirk and all. No federation complicity in any criminal activity that supports robe admiral.

555. What is it with you? - May 19, 2014

Boborci…

I think this is going to be a blast…

My only two wishes….

1) Shoot the ship like it’s in a car commercial. I love the new design and want to see her shine.

3) I want to see Kirk beat the baddie physically. Maybe even an enraged Spock. He’s supposed be a great fighter, but he just gets his ass handed to him again and again…

And a tiny little wish…

If love to see a little more of Kirk’s tactical cunning. Not saying he hadn’t gown any in the movies, but he hasn’t really shown his true brilliance. He’s supposed to be a genius – let’s see him impress Spock for once.

Other than that. I’m down with whatever you do!

556. Phil - May 19, 2014

@550. Well, that just drove a stake through twelve months of speculation about motive and complicity…

557. Gary Neumann - May 19, 2014

Tell the writers and director to watch COSMOS and feel the WONDER. that’s the kind of wonder we are missing!

558. Disinvited - May 19, 2014

#548. dmduncan – May 19, 2014

“The casts of Next Trek and Trek Classic battling each other in a movie is a terrible idea. It stinks.” — dmduncan

AAAAAAA…….GREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yet, seems born of similar sensibilities that sought to revisit Khan’s wrath?

But to muddy it somewhat, it does seem as if JJ’s E might be up to the task of taking on the Prime TNG E? Doesn’t it?

And is not as if my philosophy class never came up with scenarios where the problem had more than one equally moral solution. I just don’t see how you coherently get it to the point where each believes theirs is the only right course of action which leads to them taking potshots at each other.

559. Curious Cadet - May 19, 2014

@548. dmduncan,
“The casts of Next Trek and Trek Classic battling each other in a movie is a terrible idea. It stinks.”

No it’s brilliant!!

Think about it, Have Shatner, Nimoy, Nichols, Takei and Koenig, come from the MIRROR universe. They can battle Pine, Quinto, et al, and they can even have Nimoy play both his old self and his MIRROR old self, advising Quinto (even though he said he wouldn’t).

This gives all the old fans what they have been screaming for, and a good reason for the the old cast to be there.

LOL, I couldn’t keep a straight face.

But seriously, if that’s what they wanted to do, that might have actually made for an interesting movie, when everyone was still alive and young enough to do it in 1990 … and I came up with that out of the blue (how many hours did it take Braga?). The ending is easy — The Non-Mirror TOS Enterprise comes through time and helps Picard defeat the Mirror TOS crew, who are about to deliver the death blow to the Enterprise D (necessitating it’s decommission for the next film), and destroy the Mirror Enterprise once and for all. Shatner gives Picard a pat on the shoulder and tells him it looks like the future Federation is in good hands — passing of the torch accomplished and Prime Kirk doesn’t have to die by falling off a bridge, and the TOS Enterprise slingshots into the sunset.

Say what you will, but based on the old rationale behind making Trek films for a niche fan base, I really think that could have been a really fun movie that would have electrified the fan base. Basically the Wrath of Khan with the Mirror Enterprise and crew substituting for Khan and the Reliant.

560. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 19, 2014

550. boborci

Point made.

However, the inclusion of the dedication at the end of the film did make me wonder.

561. crazydaystrom - May 19, 2014

Just a little something about the next Trek, boborci, please! Some small, non-cryptic morsel, why don’t cha? Come on. It would mean so much.

562. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 19, 2014

554. Curious Cadet

I am onboard wit ‘dat!

“{*}” Standing ovation!! “{*}”

563. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

542. Marja – May 19, 2014

And, IAW Curious Cadet’s #536 pardon my satire, IMDB Pro:

Star Trek into Darkness
Action | Adventure | Sci-Fi

The plot is unknown at this time.

Now, that one I got. And it drew a snicker from me.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose, ay?

But, who knows…maybe Bob will do a complete 360 with BRTrek3, and it will turn out to be a great science-fiction movie worthy of the legacy of GR, TOS and TNG and the best of what has been represented in the past by the brand, STAR TREK.

One-Eighty, you stupid, spaghetti-slurping cretin! ONE-EIGHTY!

If I did a THREE-SIXTY, I’d go completely around and end up back where I started!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiCF1QdyxhM

564. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

545. Disinvited – May 19, 2014

Fascinating. Thanks for the excerpt.

565. Disinvited - May 19, 2014

#554. Curious Cadet – May 19, 2014

That’s one hurdle down. But no matter how you try, its budget is going to be bigger than Paramount will ever accommodate.

566. Mike Barnett - May 19, 2014

Bob Orci:

Any idea when official news regarding Star Trek 3 will be released to the public? Days? Weeks?
Perhaps Paramount/BR/Skydance are working on a budget and release date before they’ll have a press release.
I probably answered my own question. LOL.

567. boborci - May 19, 2014

What is the fascination with official press releases anyway?

568. Curious Cadet - May 19, 2014

@551. Phil,
“Well, that just drove a stake through twelve months of speculation about motive and complicity…”

Now if only it were actually on the screen … ;-)

569. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

548. dmduncan – May 19, 2014

Let the record reflect that red matter could have been physically plausible given the right materials (i.e., materials that do exactly what the movie shows them doing).

There’s a huge difference between those two conceits:

The light-bulb laser conceit is actually showing you the physics of what is happening, i.e. optical refraction (not technically a “laser”). You can do it yourself with any translucent medium that focuses light rays, such as kids (like me when I was one) are wont to do with a magnifying glass on a sunny day and whatever unfortunate objects happen to catch our attention as being potentially fun to burn a hole through.

The conceit in that TOS scene was onlyin the materials being used, and it’s not such a leap to have a light source and refracting medium sufficient to burn through heftier things like metal. The writers show you the physical process and simply ask you to imagine that the EM radiation supplied by the light bulb and the refracting properties of the ruby are a bit different than how they would be with common materials. In other words, the writers are taking care to (1) show you that they are being thoughtful about science; (2) show you that they are educated about science; and (3) demand relatively little from us in terms of suspension of disbelief.

It’s on the order of a scientific thought-experiment with the only hypothesis being: what if you could perform the common light-focusing trick with materials that differed from their common analogues in these specific ways: the EM source emits a different spectrum of energy which is shifted more toward the infrared, and the refracting material focuses that energy more acutely.

There’s none of that thoughtfulness and care involved in the Red Matter conceit. It’s literally a deus ex machina, a magic wand being waved to produce a plot convenience that the writers wanted. And this lack of care is one example of what people refer to as “lazy writing” by Orci and Kurtzman.

When we see Gandalf do his magic in LOTR, we get no explanation as to how it’s being done and we don’t much care because know that we’re in a fantasy world with different physical laws than our own world.

But Trek has always been set in a world very physically similar to our own. The premise of the franchise has always been a sort of hypothetical real-world but in the mysterious future. The writers, in TOS and TNG especially, took care to base their conceits on real science, in TNG often on cutting edge scientific theory.

So, what’s Red Matter? What physical process does it utilize? How does it work? How does a drop of Red Matter produce a localized gravitational phenomenon which typically requires as much mass as in 4 Suns? If the Red Matter is as massive as 4 suns, then how is the ship carrying around that huge glob of it? And how would people produce something so heavy in a lab? What’s it made of? Does it utilize some other physical phenomenon besides the warping of space by gravity in order to produce a black hole? If so, what? And so on.

Not all scientific conceits are created equal.

570. Mike Barnett - May 19, 2014

Bob Orci:
Honestly, I don’t know. Maybe because it’s always fun to talk about the latest news (official, unofficial) regarding our beloved Star Trek.

571. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

William Shatner posted this on reddit an hour ago

========================
[-] williamshatner

So delightful to see such spirited commentary.

True Orci is untested but is Star Trek that hard to do? He’s a writer with a ton of potential plot points, he has presumably a good budget and a good production team. What more could be asked for by a director?

I personally hope he does the Guardian of Forever – that seems the perfect vehicle to right the ‘wrongs’ and put everything back on track but that’s just my own opinion.

http://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/25yamm/star_dreck_why_hiring_roberto_orci_to_direct_star/

572. crazydaystrom - May 19, 2014

Bob…….?

?

Come on man.

Throw

Us

A

Bone

!

Don’t make me beg.

Ok, I’m beggin’ ya!!

573. Hat Rick - May 19, 2014

The reason we’re interested in official pronouncements is that without them, this could all be vaporware.

574. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

549. dmduncan – May 19, 2014

The casts of Next Trek and Trek Classic battling each other in a movie is a terrible idea. It stinks.

And I’m not surprised that they couldn’t think of a way to make it work. The only way that I can think of to have neither side come off as the defeated bad guy is for the conflict to have been based on a terrible mistake. TNG crew is somehow mislead or deluded into believing that TOS crew are evil or ignorantly dangerous or trying to do something evil or ignorantly dangerous.

–OR–

TNG crew correctly learns that TOS crew is trying to do something evil or dangerous, and it is the TOS crew who are only dangerous because they’ve been deluded.

TNG crew then has no choice but to destroy TOS crew. This way could work out in terms of preserving the moral integrity (and thereby the likeability) of both crews, but it still leaves our new protagonists going forward (the TNG crew) as the MURDERERS of our old heroes.

So, now the TNG crew has to suffer terrible guilt over the incident in order to redeem themselves in our eyes, and the whole thing becomes a terrible downer. Look at how awful Kirk’s death left us feeling due to the senselessness of it in ST:G. Imagine the entire TOS crew not only dying senseless deaths, but at the hands of our TNG heroes.

Ugh. What a mess.

575. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

@566. crazydaystrom

My sources are telling me that the movie takes place in SPACE!

Now that is a very good news, right? At last, we are away from San Francisco & Earth :)

576. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

@ 567. Hat Rick – May 19, 2014

“The reason we’re interested in official pronouncements is that without them, this could all be vaporware.”

Have no fear, my friend. You are not going to read in the papers that Bob left the project suddenly over ‘Creative Differences’ with the studio.

I think they are just trying to figure out release date & the budget before making any official announcement.

577. crazydaystrom - May 19, 2014

569. Ahmed-
“@566. crazydaystrom

My sources are telling me that the movie takes place in SPACE!

Now that is a very good news, right? At last, we are away from San Francisco & Earth :)”

Thanks but not good enough Ahmed, sorry. I need to hear it from the horse’s mouth. Or rather the horsey’s mouth. Um, Orci’s mouth! Well read it from his keyboard………umm….WHATEVER!!

It would mean so much Bob. Why don’tcha?

578. Mike Barnett - May 19, 2014

“The dream of turning useless into valuable has been alive since Midas touched items to turn them to gold. Now scientists have apparently cracked how to turn light into matter, just like Star Trek’s replicator.”

More info:
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/128947-star-trek-replicator-could-arrive-in-12-months-if-theorised-collider-turns-light-into-matter

579. Hugh Hoyland - May 19, 2014

I wonder who Bob is going to use as his Cinematographer?

580. Phil - May 19, 2014

@567. Beats me. We’d like to think it lends an air of legitimacy to a project…but then, the occasional press release continues to float out about Ghostbusters III, and we all know that project is dead,

581. Ahmed - May 19, 2014

@ 567. boborci – May 19, 2014

“What is the fascination with official press releases anyway?”

Nothing is real until it is written down :-)

582. Disinvited - May 19, 2014

#568. Cygnus-X1 – May 19, 2014

The only way I can think of to even up the odds in a battle is to come up with some reason the that the TNG E’s crew has to end up using the alt E and the Alt E’s crew takes the TNG E.

Let’s see…at movie open Scotty is using the Jupiter skunkworks to upgrade and repair the altE “drydocked” there after some encounter/advetnure/mission. TNG E shows up and the only facility able to provide advanced enough couplings to properly dock her is the Jupiter skunkworks.

That gets the ships together.

I’m too tired to flesh out how to get Picard and company off his ship but it seems obvious some emergency causes AltKirk ot consider taking Picard’s E as AltE is in no state to go anywhere.

583. Disinvited - May 19, 2014

#@ 567. boborci – May 19, 2014

“What is the fascination with official press releases anyway?” — boborci

For a tyro director? It’s a nicety and a form of proper introduction by the studio of you to the movie going public who otherwise are going to sound like a bunch of owls when they see your name on the movie posters.

584. boborci - May 19, 2014

583 — ha! good point!

Hey Paramount, where’s that friggin’ press release?

585. boborci - May 19, 2014

584. they probably have to look up how to spell my name

586. boborci - May 19, 2014

581 like WMD in Iraq?

587. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

578. Mike Barnett – May 19, 2014

The real achievement will be if they can make it energy efficient and cost effective.

The amount of energy being put into that system just to get the elemental particles (E-, E+) is way more than those particles are worth in terms of components for material goods. And what are they going to do with all of those spare positrons? They’re highly volatile and will mutually annihilate if they come into contact with electrons. And electrons are already easy to get anyway and without all of that trouble and positron by-product. And you can’t make things just out of electrons…except for electricity, that is. And we already have that. Frankly, the whole endeavor seems more academic than practical.

588. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

582. Disinvited – May 19, 2014

But at the time that ST:Generations was being hashed out, there was no such thing as the Alt Enterprise. The idea was for the TOS Enterprise to face off against TNG’s Enterprise (still “D” at that time).

589. Cygnus-X1 - May 19, 2014

580. Phil – May 19, 2014

How will we all find the strength to go on without a Ghostbusters 3?

There was so much more of that story to tell.

Please reassure me that Goonies 2 is still on.

590. Jamie - May 19, 2014

Congrats Mr. Orci! :D
2016 ain’t coming early enough… looking forward to the hints relating to the next film you always include in the ongoing comics. I’ve never seen a comic book series + film tie-in like what you guys are doing with Star Trek. Great work and god speed!

591. Jay Ley (UK Trekkie) - May 20, 2014

Bob,

Any chance that you will be taking some ideas from the Dr Who anniversaries?

Great chance to get all the captains together…

See post 86!

592. dmduncan - May 20, 2014

549. Disinvited – May 19, 2014

Thanks.

593. Lurker - May 20, 2014

Shatner is suggesting Guardian of Forever? I think a visit to Talos IV could also be interesting.

As far as Generations – they should have saved the script from Yesterday’s Enterprise and simply replaced the Enterprise C with the Enterprise A. The crews battling each other is nonsense. Working with each other to correct the timeline would have been in line with Star Trek and fun to watch.

594. K.J. - May 20, 2014

Bob,

It’s great to see you interacting with us fellow fans. Question; had you directed the last installment, was there anything you would have done differently?

Looking forward to seeing what a true fan like you will do with this franchise. I, for one have high hopes.

Also, I always love to see easter eggs and surprise cameos…have you thought of any for ST3? I Loved seeing Christopher Doohan in the last two, hope he gets a little more screen time this time.

595. Mike Barnett - May 20, 2014

587. Cygnus-X1

With my basic knowledge of electronics, that makes sense to me. Thanks. May I ask what you do for a living?
I get a kick out of articles about engineers & scientists work on Trek-like technology. I seem to recall research on other Trek technologies like warp drive, holodeck and transporter.

596. Mike Barnett - May 20, 2014

584. boborci – May 19, 2014
“Hey Paramount, where’s that friggin’ press release?”

Bob Orci:
:-) I didn’t mean to be a pest about that. You might think I’m out of my mind, but I’ve always been interested in the making of films or TV shows. It all started when I read ‘The Making of Star Trek’ back in the ’70’s. I think if I lived in southern California I would have pursued a career in ‘Hollywood’ – but I lacked the guts to move away from Minnesota. So that’s why I’ve been asking about press releases. Would you be willing to make the director’s gig official by telling your friends here at Trekmovie?

This is the book that got me hooked:
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Star-Trek-Stephen-Whitfield/dp/0345340191

597. Phil - May 20, 2014

@589. Sleep easy, Goonies 2 is still with us.

So is Terminator 5, though the old, flabby and slightly annoying T-800, which is eliciting a little less savory response….

598. Phil - May 20, 2014

@587. Yeah, I seem to recall a similar problem with the scientists announced they had ‘transported’ an atom in a lab experiment. Lot’s of chatter about Treks transporters, but it got buried in the article that it took a ridiculously massive amount of energy to perform the feat.

Besides, if I need any volatility in my food, there’s always Taco Bell. All the explosive results you want, for just a buck.

599. Curious Cadet - May 20, 2014

@588. Cygnus-X1,
“The idea was for the TOS Enterprise to face off against TNG’s Enterprise (still “D” at that time).”

I’m telling you, the Mirror TOS Enterprise crew battling the Ent. D crew. The non-mirror TOS Ent. crew shows up at the end and helps the Ent. D crew dispatch the Mirror E. The satisfaction of killing Kirk, Spock, et al, while simultaneously making them the heroes, and passing the torch. Having their cake and eating it too. That is a dream film for core fans, and could have been a ton of fun.

600. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#588. Cygnus-X1 – May 19, 2014

I knew I was too tired when I wrote that. Point taken. No AltE.

601. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#599. Curious Cadet – May 20, 2014

You are winning me over. One plus I can think of is if you can’t get an actor to stop delivering a line in a hammy manner, instead of wearing him/her down with 40 more takes. just give it to the mirror counterpart with a simple costume change.

602. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2014

599. Curious Cadet

I am still on board with that one.

It would probably be better suited for a kick off episode of “Star Trek 2375.”

603. Curious Cadet - May 20, 2014

@598. Phil,
“Besides, if I need any volatility in my food, there’s always Taco Bell. All the explosive results you want, for just a buck.”

Thanks Phil, I’m now imagining the Klingons exploiting a race of people with unique hyper-flatulents that rival anti-matter as a cheap alternative energy source. I imagine a Hellenistic bireme galley-like engine room with rows of alien slaves siting on special seats while being force-fed Klingon burritos. Explosive indeed …

604. Elias Javalis - May 20, 2014

584,

I Never understood Paramount’s tactic Bob,

…So much Secrecy, an other Member here pointed that also.

Granted, You, J.J and Co pulled a Small Miracle. You Made Star Trek Fresh and Exciting once again! I Really loved your Take of the Franchise!

But, eventually they must loosen up a bit.

605. Admiral_Bumblebee - May 20, 2014

Why not do some sort of crowd-creating of the story?
Wouldn’t it help the film to post the story beforehand so that Paramount could see if the story will appeal to Trek fans?
Some feedback from the fans could help, too and if the movie doesn’t work afterwards it is the fault of the fans, too and not just the director and the writers…

606. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#605. Admiral_Bumblebee – May 20, 2014

I can’t see the creative talent going much for it but I have to admit that I think the studio suits would go gaga over another method being available to scapegoat out their culpability if a movie falters.

607. I am not Herbert - May 20, 2014

no press release = no pride

(you don’t trumpet an if-y decision…)

…it would look like “rewarding” him for STID =(

608. Bill Peters - May 20, 2014

Ok Guys stop Harping on Bob and the press release, it will come I am beating they will release all the info they can at once such as Bob directing and a relase date ect

609. Mike Barnett - May 20, 2014

608. Bill Peters
I agree. The info will be released when it gets released :)

610. martin - May 20, 2014

I would love it if Roberto orci was given the chance to direct, he might do a great job, or there is even directors like tim russ, Robert Duncan mcneil and Jonathan frakes. which all have directing experience.

611. Cygnus-X1 - May 20, 2014

595. Mike Barnett – May 20, 2014

I’m not a professional scientist. It’s just something I studied in college and have maintained interest in as a hobby.

Holodeck technology is related to replicator and transporter. The idea is that the “pattern” of a given object (and there was a lot of talk of peoples’ “patterns” and the “pattern buffer” of the transporters starting with TNG) is programmed into the holodeck computer or the replicator computer, and the device then rearranges matter in accordance with the specifications of the pattern. I mentioned this before, but the main obstacle to that technology (besides the humungous, cost-prohibitive amount of energy that it would require) is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle—the position and velocity of a particle cannot both be known simultaneously, and the more precise your measurement of one becomes (say, the position), the less precise your measurement of the other becomes (the velocity). That’s a major obstacle when you’re trying to assemble (or reassemble) objects particle by particle.

As I mentioned, TNG addressed this issue with the “Heisenberg Compensator,” but that’s just a clever conceit. As far as I know, nobody has any idea what such a component might entail or how it might work. But, it was the best that the TNG writers could realistically come up with (after all, if they could’ve be more specific about the issue, they’d have surpassed the top physicists in the world at the time in terms of knowledge and research).

Warp drive is basically warping space so that the space in front of the ship (in the direction of motion) contracts and the space behind the ship expands. Warp drive thereby acts as sort of a constantly changing wormhole allowing the ship to traverse the fabric of space without having to accelerate to such high speeds. If you can imagine a red carpet, like at a hotel leading from the entrance into the hotel, and scrunching up that carpet so that it’s not as long due to the many folds in it. If you now walk over the scrunched-up carpet you can traverse the distance of the entire carpet in less time than when it was fully stretched out and flat, simply because the carpet now occupies less surface area on the floor, i.e. the scrunched-up carpet is “shorter” than the stretched-out-flat carpet. Well, warp drive involves at least one extra dimension, but the basic concept is the same as that of the scrunched-up carpet.

Speaking of warp drive, I actually just watched the DS9 episode Explorers (3×22) and the writers of that episode made a big mistake regarding warp drive. In the episode, Sisko builds an ancient Bajoran ship according to specs that he finds, and sets out to prove that the Bajorans could have flown that ship from Bajor to Cardassian space. Mid-journey, a surge of tachyon particles energizes the ship’s sails (which are like Hydrogen sails) and the ship accelerates to warp speed, thereby reaching Cardassian space. The mistake made by the writers was in thinking that warp speed was like sonic speed or light speed, i.e. a very high velocity, when it’s actually a totally different technology and mode of travel, as I mentioned above. Warp drive requires warp engines (nacelles) which warp space around the ship, as opposed to some form of propulsion drive (like impulse engines or ion drive) which propels the ship forward at higher velocities. I actually have a Star Trek technical manual around here somewhere which I could reference….

612. Curious Cadet - May 20, 2014

@611. Cygnus-X1,
“Warp drive requires warp engines (nacelles) which warp space around the ship, as opposed to some form of propulsion drive (like impulse engines or ion drive) which propels the ship forward at higher velocities.”

Now apply that to Transwarp beaming and help us all understand how a device the size of an overnight bag can transport a stream of deconstructed molecular information across the galaxy and reassemble it as the original.

613. Cygnus-X1 - May 20, 2014

599. Curious Cadet – May 20, 2014

I’m telling you, the Mirror TOS Enterprise crew battling the Ent. D crew. The non-mirror TOS Ent. crew shows up at the end and helps the Ent. D crew dispatch the Mirror E. The satisfaction of killing Kirk, Spock, et al, while simultaneously making them the heroes, and passing the torch. Having their cake and eating it too. That is a dream film for core fans, and could have been a ton of fun.

That’s actually not a bad idea. It’s a compromise rather than a flat-out usurpation of the franchise by the TNG crew over the TOS crew, but it does achieve an unmistakable passing-of-the-torch symbolism while also providing the Godzilla vs. Mothra sort of appeal.

Not bad, I must say. Could easily have been better than Generations. But, then, so could a can of room-temperature, year-old Spam.

614. Silvereyes - May 20, 2014

563. Cygnus-X1

“Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose, ay?”

Is this from Google translate or do you have a respectable knowledge of French vernacular?

615. Cygnus-X1 - May 20, 2014

612. Curious Cadet – May 20, 2014

@611. Cygnus-X1,
“Warp drive requires warp engines (nacelles) which warp space around the ship, as opposed to some form of propulsion drive (like impulse engines or ion drive) which propels the ship forward at higher velocities.”

Now apply that to Transwarp beaming and help us all understand how a device the size of an overnight bag can transport a stream of deconstructed molecular information across the galaxy and reassemble it as the original.

Exactly. It’s just too fantastical. The original TOS transporter conceit is already pushing it by re-materializing objects at locations without the aid of another transporter device to receive the information, provide the particles and re-assemble them as per the patterns conveyed. The original TOS transporter is apparently transmitting the actual, original particles of the disintegrated objects and somehow reassembling them at locations without the aid of another transporter device, which is already a bridge too far. At a minimum, you’d need another device at the destination location to do the job of reintegration.

But, OK, we understand that landing the Enterprise on planets was cost prohibitive, so they needed to solve that problem with the transporter conceit. We accept the necessity of it and suspend our disbelief. But, the additional conceit of compressing the whole transporter device from a spaceship with all of its power supply, computer and other technology into a duffel bag, and then the even further conceit of increasing the range of the transporter (which now fits comfortably inside a duffel bag) from planetary orbit to planet surface, to a quarter of the distance across the Milky Way Galaxy…I mean, the last winking pretense of science-fiction has now gone right out the window. The shark has been jumped. It’s now a magic wand being waved in the air to get Character X from Location A to Location B during a plot point.

616. Cygnus-X1 - May 20, 2014

614. Silvereyes – May 20, 2014

Just a few useful phrases at this point, I’m afraid.

617. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#611. Cygnus-X1 – May 20, 2014

Well, I suppose it is a good thing for you they recently got around to proving it:

http://www.examiner.com/article/heisenberg-uncertainty-principle-proven-accurate

618. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#611. Cygnus-X1 – May 20, 2014

OOPS PUSHED “SAY IT!” too fast before I include your compensator justification from same aritcle:

“The researchers note that the amount of uncertainty involved in measuring both the position and momentum of an electron has diminished in recent times due to work that has developed nanotechnology and an increasingly low energy method of detecting the momentum of an electron. The study proposes that uncertainty as proposed by Heisenberg may be minimized and potentially eliminated with technology that has yet to be developed. The brilliance of Heisenberg was he did this work with pencil and paper only.”

619. dmduncan - May 20, 2014

599. Curious Cadet – May 20, 2014

And that’s what stinks about it. You can tell that idea was hatched by a couple of dudes who had no hope for or concern about appealing to anyone but the most fanatical.

Not even all fans, but a certain group of fans.

Sometimes I come in here and I read things, and I feel like I’m poor Gordon Ramsey massaging his eyeballs in a nightmare kitchen where the restaurant owners are in denial that the food is bad, and are honestly mystified about why business sucks.

620. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#615. Cygnus-X1 – May 20, 2014

According to the Breit-Wheeler theory which is up for a test:

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-research-proves-light-can-be-converted-into-matter-by-man

“The proposed proof of the Breit-Wheeler theory involves two steps. Electrons will be accelerated to near the speed of light in a particle accelerator. The electrons will be fired at a thin strip of gold to produce high-energy photons. A laser will produce a second source of high-energy light similar to that emitted by stars from a gold hohlraum. The two light sources will be combined to form electrons and positrons. A hohlraum is a minute can-shaped object made of gold.

Most of the physicists that have reviewed the proposed experiment predict success. The production of matter from light will be the first time man has accomplished the feat. The success of this work will rank with the previous work of Einstein and is most likely to be a Nobel Prize selection in the future. The researchers claim that the discovery of how to make matter from light was relatively easy to develop.

Making matter from light may not seem to be so important to normal people. Making matter from light is one of the steps necessary for transporting objects from one place to another like in Star Trek.”

We may be on the verge of converting energy into matter.

621. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@ 608. Bill Peters – May 20, 2014

“Ok Guys stop Harping on Bob and the press release,”

Alright Bill.

Everyone, please leave Bob alone! No more questions about the bloody press release or even the movie. You are allowed to ask Bob about the weather only, okay ?

622. Sybock - May 20, 2014

I look forward to being the villain again.

623. Disinvited - May 20, 2014

#597. Phil – May 20, 2014

Can you imagine what a field day Dr. Who would have with his sonic screwdriver against the Terminators?

Wait a minute, a flip through the Paramount Press Releases to see if they are at least going to give Bob a dinner reveals:

http://www.paramount.com/news-and-social-media

Matt Smith IS in the Terminator reboot.

624. Mike Barnett - May 20, 2014

Bob Orci:
What’s the forecast for this weekend in LA? ;-)

625. Sybock - May 20, 2014

I have Shatner on the phone. He has some ideas.

626. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@623. Mike Barnett

Now, that’s the spirit!

627. Khan was Framed! - May 20, 2014

Spoiler alert: A vaguely familiar villain will threaten to attack Earth in a giant ship.

It seems Bob Orci loves Nemesis so much, he’s remade it twice. Can’t wait to see how he redoes it a third time.

Wait…yes I can, add this to the growing list of favorite franchises turned to garbage with Superman, Batman & Robocop.

And much like The next Superman, it will be the first in the franchise I boycott entirely based on staffing choices.

628. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@ 586. boborci – May 19, 2014

“581 like WMD in Iraq?”

Exactly! Once The Decider has the written September Dossier in his blessed hands, Iraqi WMD became as real as the air he was breathing!!

That’s the power of the written word & it is the reason why we are waiting for the “friggin’ press release” :-)

629. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@ 625. Khan was Framed! – May 20, 2014

“And much like The next Superman, it will be the first in the franchise I boycott entirely based on staffing choices.”

What Superman 2 staffing choices that made you want to boycott the sequel ?

“It seems Bob Orci loves Nemesis so much, he’s remade it twice. Can’t wait to see how he redoes it a third time.”

I don’t think that Bob will be that dumb.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to wait until we have more info & see the trailer first.

630. Mike Barnett - May 20, 2014

625. Khan was Framed!

Boycott? Come on buddy, we all know you’re going to see the movie. Maybe not in the theaters but for sure on DVD/Blu Ray, Netflix, etc.

631. CecilofRil - May 20, 2014

Ahmed:

I don’t think that is what Bill meant….

Hey Khan was framed:

While you are out boycotting movies, why don’t you explain your inane argument as to why you think Man of Steel (and consequently the sequel) is/will be bad? I mean, I thought it was probably the best damn reboot since Casino Royale. But hey, why don’t you share your opinion.

I can understand why the Dark Knight Trilogy may not have been to your liking. It wasn’t really for the “comic book fan,” as it used the outlines for the characters, and grounded the story more in reality.

Also, why don’t you share your opinion of Star Trek. Just saying “that’s a horrible reboot” isn’t enough. Sometimes (like Cygnus-X1) it is better to share your opinion so that people can respond.

632. dmduncan - May 20, 2014

I’m just so glad we finally get to talk to the director for a change.

633. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

El Rey Network has released a trailer for its new series “Matador” produced by Bob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N65wYRtNHrA

Hopefully El Rey will makes this show available on Netflix, similar to what they did with their first series, From Dusk Till Dawn.

btw, among the show producers is an Andrew Orci, is he related to Bob by any chance ?

634. Cervantes - May 20, 2014

@ #548 Disinvited –

Sadly, the ‘Generations’ movie proved to be a missed opportunity in quite a few areas overall…but it was interesting to see from your post that a kind of ‘TOS crew versus NEXT GEN crew’ face-off storyline was originally being considered!

But personally, I wouldn’t have really liked that concept either, due to some of the inherent negative problems associated with doing something along those lines, as mentioned at the bottom of your post.

However, what I *would* have loved to have see done at the time….was some sort of storyline which allowed for the TOS and NEXT GEN crews to *join forces together* for most of the movie…to deal with some aggressive threat that was causing wide-ranging chaos in the galaxy – ideally, either a whole war-mongering race of some sort (some other species to Klingons!)…or some extremely powerful, mysterious entity or object…as opposed to a lone humanoid villain who was missing his family!

As much as I liked Malcolm McDowell performance, I would have certainly preferred a storyline where both crews had been seen to be collaborating against a far more cinematically-exciting adversary than Soran was.

Anyway, this scenario would have come about by either the TOS crew travelling to the future to gain some kind of help with the crisis…or by the NEXT GEN crew travelling back to the past to try and avert the crisis in the first place…

Either way would have suited me fine, and once the problem was dealt with by the movie’s end, both Captains (or crews) would have gratefully acknowledged each other’s capabilities in a final farewell…before the crew that had ‘time-travelled’ in the first place, now travelled back to the point they originally came from… Roll credits.

Yes, it would have *still* involved the much-used ‘time-travelling’ trope, but I’d have definitely left the cinema a lot more contented if things had gone more along those lines at the time! ;)
__________________________________________________________

@ #571 Ahmed –

As far as those comments on reddit.com by ‘williamshatner’ go (if indeed it is he)…I’d personally love for this Nu-‘timeline’ to re-visit the ‘Guardian Of Forever’ structure in some way, in order to inject some much-needed mystery into the proceedings of these Nu-Trek adventures.

Now as much as I’d like to see Bob use it to revert this new timeline back to the ‘prime’ one somehow…I’m *not* actually expecting that, nor asking for it…so please bear with me…

No, despite it’s potential to undo the rabbit-hole we’ve entered with J.J.’s reboots, what I mostly love about the ‘Guardian’ is how ‘otherworldly’ and ‘inexplicable’ a device it was when I first saw that episode as a boy. And that booming voice! Just an awesome-looking device, and the scenes involving it made a huge impression on me at the time.

Like that other great TOS-related object – the ‘Doomsday Machine’, I reckon the ‘Guardian’ would make a terrific subject to ‘re-imagine’ for these Nu-Trek adventures…to introduce some much-needed Trek-‘mystery’ as I said.

It doesn’t need to be kept to it’s exact TOS shape and dimensions, seeing as we are in a new ‘timeline’ where the likes of the ‘Enterprise’ is radically altered in many ways…and while I’d certainly like to keep the sometimes-‘glowing’ look of the structure in some way, it could be made a bigger, more imposing size for the big-screen for this Nu-timeline, for instance.

I could certainly imagine it would make for some marvellously ‘cinematic’-looking moments when the Nu-crew come across it in some way…as well as it allowing for some moments of gravitas as it cryptically communicates with it’s discoverers… (as long as the script is good, that is!)

Thing is, although Bob wouldn’t need to use it as a ‘MacGuffin’ to restore the ‘prime’ timeline with it (and indeed, would not wish to I assume)…it could certainly throw open the possibility of an excellent scene with the elderly ‘prime’ Spock who would recall the danger of it’s potential to the Nu-crew…seeing as he’d remember it from his own original ‘timeline’…

What I’d love to see is a scenario where the Nu-crew (or *someone* from it) might be put in a position where they have to make a snap decision to enter it after all…due to someone or *something* else having done so, which could have catastrophic effects for the Nu-‘timeline’ and on those around at the point they enter the ‘guardian’…especially if it’s some kind of *space-monstrosity* that enters it!

Whatever, there’s huge potential scope for *who* or *what* could be written to enter this Nu-‘Guardian Of Forever’ in the first place…and *why* they’ve been able to access the vicinity of this strange structure to begin with too. On top of that, *any* kind of ‘re-imagined’ Nu-adversaries could *still* potentially be incorporated into this next movie…as they would be seen to be the consequence of *whoever* or *whatever* went through the ‘Guardian’s ‘time’-altering portal in the first instance.

So you could *still* have anything from a Nu-‘Doomsday Machine’ (I wish!) having to be dealt with…to a Nu-‘Klingon war’ having to be dealt with…to a Nu-‘Borg’ threat having to be dealt with…to a Nu-‘Tribble’ uprising if you wished…before the Nu-crew (or *someone* from it) could emerge hopefully victorious from the Nu-‘Guardian’ portal by the movie’s end…back to carry on with their current Nu-‘timeline’ adventures…

But at least the awesome ‘Guardian Of Forever’ device would have been introduced to new Trek audiences in this movie…or at least a Nu-version of it anyway. Which I’d be more than happy with! :)

As a last, different *possibility* to contemplate too – due to the fact that this Trek movie is set in a supposedly all-new ‘timeline’…rather than having a Nu-‘Guardian’ that merely allows for ‘travelling back in time…what if it could be ‘re-imagined’ as a gateway to totally ‘alternative’ universes instead?

In which case it could allow for a scenario where the Nu-crew (or *someone* from it) enters the portal to battle *whatever* adversary or threat in an ‘alternative’ universe to the Nu-universe for the duration of the movie…an ‘alternative’ universe that allows for an ‘alternative’ elderly Kirk to make an appearance, however brief! Which means that Shatner *could* appear *without* contradicting what happened to his ‘prime’ universe ‘doppleganger’ on that damned bridge!

Hell, Bob could even include a cameo by an ‘alternative’ elderly Picard ‘doppleganger’ too, during the Nu-crew’s adventure in this ‘alternative’ universe if he wished to, if that was the case…and the Nu-crew would just return to their own Nu-universe before the movie ends…

Roll credits once again. :)
__________________________________________________________

Let me just end with this brilliant little ‘talking’ model of the original TOS ‘Guardian Of Forever’ that I came across recently – I’d have killed to have had this on my bedroom shelf when I was a boy…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mws6nSzeJos

635. Keachick (Rose) - May 20, 2014

#629 – Ahmed has not held back on sharing his opinion of STID on this site. Regular contributors here should confirm this.

#554 – I think that was what my (longer) summary pretty much said which I wrote on this site nearly a year ago.

All this argument over one form of science fiction, ie TOS, not being the result of “lazy” writing, but “red matter” and “portable transwarp beaming” being “lazy” writing or whatever other derogatory description given, is just so much BOLLOCKS!

In reality, scientists are still trying to make the theoretically workable nuclear fusion idea to actually work and safely at that, in the real world, hence NIF, which is where some of STID was filmed. AFAIK, that has not happened so far.

Warp drive, transporter and its development, replicators, etc are all science-fiction and one IS pretty much equal to another. It is just arrogant to think that there may not be a substance akin to “red matter” and really stupid to expect a scientific explanation for how a fictional matter with alien properties should work and to call writers “lazy” if they don’t give one.

We were shown what it does in specific circumstances and we were all shown that this is powerful and volatile substance that can cause unexpected phenomena when activated in a slightly different circumstance. It needs to be handled with great care and held in a special container and accessed in a very specific way in order for it to remain safe and be used for the purpose it is intended for. Hopefully the red matter destroyed all of itself in the final explosion/implosion.

BTW, how many people can quickly and accurately describe the physics/mechanics of how birds fly. Yet we know they can fly and may also know that some birds are born without that ability. Do you know why? In a story, do you need to be told the scientific explanations behind flight or being flightless?

People seem able to accommodate the notion of warp flight, dilithium crystals and transporter technology from TOS TV but not red matter. The only reason you folk have trouble is because “red matter” is new, but much of what made TOS prime universe work have been around for 47 years. Red matter has only been around for five years. I guess it takes that long for some people to accommodate anything slightly new in the realm of (science) fiction.

Speaking of weather – Bob Orci, how is the weather right now where you are? Let me know…the Keachick is feeling meteorologically nosy, especially since someone did mention that the weather was all you could write about…:)

636. Bill Peters - May 20, 2014

I mean You guys seem to think you need to know everything Bob Knows, It will all come in good time and I for one don’t judge a film tell I have seen it or a friend or family member has.

I like that Bob comes here too talk but that doesn’t mean he has put out the hole scrip here,I sam sure he hears our thoughts and Ideas and uses them as he feels fit but that doesn’t mean you have to interrogate him like a Cardasian.

637. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@ 635. Keachick (Rose) – May 20, 2014

“#629 – Ahmed has not held back on sharing his opinion of STID on this site. Regular contributors here should confirm this.”

#629 is my post, to whom are you addressing this comment ?

638. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@ 631. CecilofRil – May 20, 2014

“Ahmed:

I don’t think that is what Bill meant….”

I know, was just joking with him :)

639. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@636. Bill Peters

“I like that Bob comes here too talk but that doesn’t mean he has put out the hole scrip here,I sam sure he hears our thoughts and Ideas and uses them as he feels fit but that doesn’t mean you have to interrogate him like a Cardasian.”

How dare you compare us to the Obsidian Order ? We are compassionate & tolerant, just like the Tal Shiar :-)

640. Ahmed - May 20, 2014

@634. Cervantes,

You got some really interesting ideas about the ‘Guardian Of Forever’. There are so many ways, as you put it in your post, in which the Guardian could be used in a future Trek movie. These ideas could ties in with Payne said in this video:

Payne: “We’re trying to set up a kind of situation where you really could — and not in just an ‘everything’s relative’ sort of moral relativism — you could be a good person of any creed or philosophical background and come down on both sides of how you should respond to this opportunity that the crew has…. that also has some pitfalls to it. Where you could argue very, very, very compellingly that ‘this’ is what you should do, and if you’re advocating ‘this’ then it’s actually evil.

It’s sort of the Adam and Eve thing, where should we eat the fruit or not eat the fruit? Well, there are some very compelling reasons why they should and why they shouldn’t. So, similar kinds of things here that really give the whole movie and opportunity to sort of play with that, and have people come down on different side and wrestle with it; then come to an ending where you can walk out and say, ‘You know, I don’t know what I would do.'”

http://trekcore.com/blog/2014/03/video-jd-payne-offers-hints-to-star-trek-3-plot-describes-moral-dilemma-for-enterprise-crew/

oh and it is the real Shatner who posted that comment on reddit. He joined reddit last year:

“Back in January, William Shatner boldly went where no Star Trek star had gone before, participating in an AMA (Ask Me Anything) event on online super-messageboard Reddit. In order to participate in the event — which allowed other Reddit users to literally ask Shatner anything they wanted over a designated time period — Shatner had to first sign up for a Reddit account.

He did — and now he’s taking the site to task for some of the things he’s seen as a user.”

http://arts.nationalpost.com/2013/02/13/william-shatner-vs-reddit-star-trek-vet-slams-site-for-racist-homophobic-sexist-content/

641. Mike Barnett - May 20, 2014

636. Bill Peters

I didn’t ask anything about the script – – just wanted to know if it was official that Bob got picked as the director.
I think it’s great that a Trekkie/Trekker is going to direct the 50th anniversary movie. And I can do my tiny part by promoting it to my family and friends. You know – word of mouth. ‘One of us’ is directing Star Trek 3!
So that’s why I wanted to see if it’s official. I think it’s safe to say it’s official otherwise Bob would have said something by now.

642. boborci - May 20, 2014

Cygnus-1

just to get your feet wet on the concept of the universe being non-local and the concept of quantum entanglement may get you thinking about how “traveling across the galaxy” is a scientifically valid concept” with this highly credible theoretical physics concept in mind. Been around for over half a century.

http://www.gestaltreality.com/articles/non-local-universe/

643. Bill Peters - May 21, 2014

cool Mike Barnett

644. Bill Peters - May 21, 2014

639. Ahmed

“How dare you compare us to the Obsidian Order ? We are compassionate & tolerant, just like the Tal Shiar :-)”

you mean like Tal Shair Under Selia or Under Donotra?

645. Marja - May 21, 2014

Can I just say

N O T I M E T R A V E L P L E A S E

and N O R E – J O I N I N G T H E U N I V E R S E S

[how the hell would that even work anyways?]

And gawd please don’t listen to some of these crazy ideas here.

Except for the idea somebody mentioned about us getting to see Kirk’s tactical genius where he does something that impresses even Spock!

646. Marja - May 21, 2014

Sorry the whatsit doesn’t recognize spaces …

NO TIME TRAVEL PLEASE GOD!

and NO RE-JOINING THE UNIVERSES!

criminey, WHY?!? We have a whole new one to play in!

647. Cygnus-X1 - May 21, 2014

642. boborci – May 20, 2014

Yes, “spooky action at a distance,” as Einstein described it.

I have several things to say about quantum entanglement and its implications with regard to the duffel-bag transporter scene in STID. But, I should subordinate my comments until after you have explained exactly how you based the duffel-bag transporter scene in STID on quantum entanglement.

648. Cervantes - May 21, 2014

@ # 642 boborci –

Thanks for the link to that ‘highly credible’ concept, as you put it.

Actually, I hadn’t read that kind of ‘theory of everything’ before, and it’s quite a mind-blowing notion…that’s if my own mind is actually mine to begin with to be blown…

Annoyingly, the very last paragraph of that article now makes me want to know *how* all the ‘energy’ it mentions came about in the first place!

649. Eyes Skyward - May 21, 2014

After DAYS OF FUTURE PAST opens, what’s the betting that Paramount will ask after Patrick Stewart’s availability in a similarly universe bursting appearance.

650. Cervantes - May 21, 2014

@ # 649 Eyes Skyward –

Perhaps, there are always possibilities at this point…

If there could be a worthy set-up conceived that would allow a way to involve Nimoy, Shatner, *and* Stewart onscreen in the same Trek movie as the current excellent Nu-crew, however briefly…then that would surely be ‘the best of all possible worlds’ to see onscreen . And a fabulous way to celebrate Trek’s 50th anniversary, of course.

Personally, I can think of no better ‘cinematic’-looking plot device than using the ‘Guardian’s portal as something the Nu-crew ventures into to enable a scenario that makes this possible…while being able to return to their original Nu-‘timeline’ afterwards.

In fact, if an adventure caused by entering the Nu-‘Guardian’ can’t be concocted to include either elder ‘prime’ Kirk or elder ‘prime’ Picard or even elder Nu-versions of them…then even merely seeing some ‘images’ of them shown by the Nu-‘Guardian’ would be wonderful in my opinion.

Bah, I know others around here are just as likely to want the Nu-crew to dive straight into the likes of a Nu-‘Klingon war’ storyline, and hang the ‘mystery’ of visiting strange, new worlds.

Ah well, you can’t please everyone Bob, so I look forward with great interest to where your own ‘creative choices’ lie with this next entry.

651. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#646. Marja – May 21, 2014

“N_O__T_I_M_E__T_R_A_V_E_L__P_L_E_A_S_E

and N_O__R_E_–_J_O_I_N_I_N_G__T_H_E__U_N_I_V_E_R_S_E_S

[how the hell would that even work anyways?]” — Marja

Something like this:

Picard Prime enters the Altuniverse to “rescue” Spock Prime. Upon picking him up Picard informs him that Federation Prime has passed its first “time” amendment to the Prime Directive and this tasks him with doing what starships’ captains having been doing without official sanctions all along: going back into this altuniverse’s past and “repairing” its timeline (see:Temporal Prime Directive). A good thing too, as once it is in sync with their home universe the resulting identical symmetry will cause the two to resonate starting a process of harmonious merging which will spit them back out to their Prime Home.

652. Cervantes - May 21, 2014

On top of the possible ways I previously suggested to ‘re-imagine’ what a Nu-‘Guardian Of Forever’ could be shown to be capable of, I’ve also thought about another potential ability too –

What if the mysterious and mind-bogglingly powerful Nu-‘Guardian’ device discovered in this particular Nu-‘timeline’ could actually let an onlooker *communicate* with others from another ‘time’ (or ‘alternative’ universe altogether, even)…even before they entered through it for some eason or another.

This extra ability could allow the writers even more scope and possibilities to come up with a storyline that allowed for some screentime for the likes of Shatner’s and Stewart’s characters, without either them or the Nu-crew physically having to share whichever ‘timeline’ they are from…

So just for instance, this could allow for a scene or two of a kind of all-powerful ‘video conferencing’ between all these characters from different ‘timelines’, where some kind of advice (or warning) is given by one set of characters to the others…and the Nu-crew have a dilemma in whether they enter the Nu-‘Guardian’ to try and sort some kind of problem out…

And this kind of ‘video conferencing’ could possibly be portrayed onscreen along these lines – the unknowably-powerful Nu-‘Guardian’ could deign to show some kind of large, thin ‘holographic’ representation of it’s Nu-crew onlookers to the elder Kirk or elder Picard characters who are seeing this ‘image’ at their end in their own, separate ‘timeline’ (or ‘alternative’ universe even)…and the Nu-crew could of course also see and hear this elder Kirk or elder Picard at their end too!

In this scenario the Nu-crew don’t even have to enter into a portal adventure that involves them going to the point where elder Kirk or elder Picard are ‘communicating’ with them from…so this could free things up even more for the Nu-crew to have an adventure written that will concentrate on just them and *whatever* adversary is deemed fit for this entry…

Ok, I’m done now, but I hope all this Nu-‘Guardian’ stuff gives some extra food for thought.

653. Silvereyes - May 21, 2014

651 Disinvited

“the resulting identical symmetry will cause the two to resonate starting a process of harmonious merging which will spit them back out to their Prime Home”

No disrespect to you Disinvited, but this is Gobbledygook technobabble nonsense. We’ve had enough of this with Voyager.

654. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#653. Silvereyes – May 21, 2014

Oh I admit that but so is “repairing” a timeline as in I was just playing with the TNG established norm which I don’t care for much either but it’s woven into its fabric.

But it should not be lost that Universes merging in and of itself is not an invalid concept per se; just that if they aren’t darn near identical the odds for surviving such an event aren’t good.

655. Bart - May 21, 2014

Oh God, no time travel and no more cameos by the original actors.

I love them but no more. I just want to focus on this crew, in this timeline and I don’t want any more crossovers and I don’t want anyone else out for vengeance.

Again, a great natural disaster story, something in the spirit of the “Mere Anarchy.” story, but something loaded with excitement, tension, and something with a deep philosophical life/death debate that Spock and McCoy can argue over.

Bob can do it, I know he can…He’s got his Trekkie Mojo on!!!

656. Son of Captain Garth - May 21, 2014

Great. The guy who wrote the cut-and-paste Into Darkness script is going to direct. The sequel made $38M less than the original–and that’s after the inflation of ticket prices after 4 years.

I can’t believe he badgered him into directing this movie. Isn’t the script going to do enough damage? Paramount is essentially rewarding his creative failure by giving him a larger canvas upon which to fail. I am definitely in the wrong line of work.

657. Mike Barnett - May 21, 2014

656. Son of Captain Garth
Yeah, it underperformed in the USA but I believe it is now the #1 Star Trek movie when you include worldwide box office and inflation. Worldwide spiked up quite a bit from ST09 and that is good news. We need worldwide interest in nuTrek so that the powers that be at CBS green lights a new TV series. I think pretty much all of us agree that Star Trek belongs on TV…..and just for the record, I’d prefer it to be on a cable channel or premium channel like Showtime. Most of the great shows are on cable these days. Not sure why that is.

658. I am not Herbert - May 21, 2014

642. boborci – the concept of the universe being non-local
648. Cervantes – if my own mind is actually mine

“…that article now makes me want to know *how* all the ‘energy’ it mentions came about in the first place!”

YES! =) FASCINATING! …these are the types of thought that led me to spiritual awakening! =)

for answers, I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Synchronicity-Key-Intelligence-Universe/dp/0525953671/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

659. I am not Herbert - May 21, 2014

Possible Intelligence Leak: Has Russia ‘Opened’ Files on ‘Nuclear’ 9/11?

(warning: has a couple of upsetting images…)

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/05/20/too-classified-to-publish-bush-nuclear-piracy-exposed/

660. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#652. Cervantes – May 21, 2014

One thing that always stuck with me about The Guardian was it said “I WAS MADE TO OFFER THE PAST IN THIS MANNER. I CANNOT CHANGE.”

That lead me to ponder that the rules that Spock and Kirk had to operate under in that episode weren’t necessarily the rules of time and space but rather the rules of the Guardian because it was made to offer the past in this manner.

Its parting dialogue even makes it sound like one of its purposes is to hawk time “tours”.

661. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#656. Son of Captain Garth – May 21, 2014

Well, it goes without saying that directors cut, but you’ve haven’t really delineated how his “pasting” as a director would be sub par?

662. Mike Barnett - May 21, 2014

647. Cygnus-X1 – May 21, 2014
“But, I should subordinate my comments until after you have explained exactly how you based the duffel-bag transporter scene in STID on quantum entanglement.”

The line below doesn’t explain it but it does put the Duffel-Transporter into something like an “unknown” category:

“There are always possibilities, Spock said.”
-Captain Kirk (TWOK)

663. I am not Herbert - May 21, 2014

..Shat recently put forth the Guardian of Forever… not a bad idea, IMO…

is that where this is coming from? ;-)

664. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

J.J. Abrams’ Note to the STAR WARS Cast and Crew:

“Dearest Cast and Crew, What an honor it is to work beside all of you, on Star Wars Ep VII. I can’t thank you enough, for all work past and future. Let’s take good care of not just ourselves, but of each other. Amazing, but true: the world awaits this film. Let’s give ‘em something GREAT. xo JJ”

http://screencrush.com/star-wars-episode-7-jj-abrams-note/

===============
Star Wars: Force for Change – A Message from J.J. Abrams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfNiC9iKM0Q

Too bad that he wasn’t that excited & forthcoming when he was making Star Trek!

665. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#655. Bart – May 21, 2014

It is rather an odd situation to burden the movie wing with celebrating Trek’s 50th. Our demands should be dancing on CBS’ desks that they take the anniversary seriously and produce network and cable products honoring same.

And I don’t necessarily have a problem with time travel per se but rather that for Trek, it evolved into what I call THE BIG GIANT RED RESET BUTTON where there’s a lot of sound and fury ultimately signifying nothing as it gets hit in the final moments of an episode.

666. Mike Barnett - May 21, 2014

664. Ahmed – May 21, 2014
“Star Wars: Force for Change – A Message from J.J. Abrams”

Maybe Bob Orci can do something like that for ST3!

667. Bart - May 21, 2014

#665 Disinvited- May 21, 2014

No argument from me on your first point. Trek belongs on TV and the fact that some of the best drama in the history of television is being produced right now, on cable, makes it even more heartbreaking that Trek isn’t there.

Give us 10-12 amazingly written episodes per season (off-network) and I’ll be the happiest fan alive.

668. Who cares - May 21, 2014

One thought, if this story is in fact true, and Bob has been given the director’s job for the next film, then that has to mean that Bob and his writing team must have gotten their first script draft in on time. If you all remember back in the inteview with JD (one of the two new guys working with Bob) he stated that Paramount had accepted their story pitch and they were to have their first script draft in by May. Well its May now, and if Paramount just gave Bob the big chair then obviously the first draft came in on time, or he wouldn’t have gotten the job.

669. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 666. Mike Barnett – May 21, 2014

“664. Ahmed – May 21, 2014
“Star Wars: Force for Change – A Message from J.J. Abrams”

Maybe Bob Orci can do something like that for ST3!”

YES!

And they should shoots the movie in Toronto & I will be more than happy to take a month off from my job & work for them as PA :-)

670. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 668. Who cares – May 21, 2014

“If you all remember back in the inteview with JD (one of the two new guys working with Bob) he stated that Paramount had accepted their story pitch and they were to have their first script draft in by May. Well its May now, and if Paramount just gave Bob the big chair then obviously the first draft came in on time, or he wouldn’t have gotten the job.”

Agreed.

671. Phil - May 21, 2014

A counterpoint to the discussion on the use of The Guardian. Like it or not, it was a fantastic device (amazing how the existence of these things were almost always just explained away as coming from some ancient and advanced race, usually extinct), that was used to great effect to create ONE memorable episode. The problem with doing it again (and again, and again) is that it’s been done – anyone remember Quantum Leap? Not sure I really need to see a Trek version of that.

672. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

# 670. Ahmed – May 21, 2014

@ 668. Who cares – May 21, 2014

I agree, deadlines are being met.

And what an odd situation that if any deadline currently isn’t being met, I’d say it is Paramount in getting the pr ball rolling. But maybe they are trying to precision time it for maximum effect? All, I can think is that PR better get some traction fast when it is set free.

673. Scuba - May 21, 2014

@boborci,

Out of curiosity, you had mentioned that there were some things about the past two films that you didn’t necessarily agree with, but got overruled on. Might you feel comfortable sharing one or two of these decisions? I am curious about some of the things the resident Trekkie was going to bat for.

674. boborci - May 21, 2014

648, cervantes

“highly credible” as I put it?

if you can higher authorities in the world of theoretical physics to have you present them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem

675. Tom - May 21, 2014

The Guardian would be a great concept. However werent there some legal issues involved with Harlan Ellison? I definitely think given the 50th anniversary that something should be worked in which honors The Original series (Talos IV would work too). As Bob originally stated , the alt universe would enable old and familiar devices that could be used in new ways with different outcomes. We also have been clamoring to see some totally new concepts. So hopefully the writing team has been able to strike a good balance with originality and some familiar things that we would like to see in a film being released during the 50th anniversary

676. Bart - May 21, 2014

No, I don’t want to see 80 year old William Shatner pop out of the Guardian, or anyone pop thru it to see him, or anyone else. No more gimicks. We had Spock there for a purpose in ’09. Both Spock and Khan felt thrown in there in the last movie; it didn’t really need either of them.

Let this crew stand on their own.

677. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 671. Phil – May 21, 2014

“The problem with doing it again (and again, and again) is that it’s been done – anyone remember Quantum Leap? Not sure I really need to see a Trek version of that.”

It was used just ONCE 50 years ago, I don’t see any problem at all of using it again.

But I guess the real reason why you don’t want to see it because it might open the possibilities of meeting some of the old cast, OH THE HORROR !!

678. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 676. Bart – May 21, 2014

“No, I don’t want to see 80 year old William Shatner pop out of the Guardian”

Bill is 83 years old.

679. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

===================
America’s linguistic melting pot

Other than English, Spanish is the most spoken language in almost all U.S. states. But watch what happens when you remove Spanish from the equation. Now there is the melting pot.

In Michigan, Arabic clocks in as the third most commonly spoken language.
In Minnesota, it’s Hmong.
In Oregon, it’s Russian.
It’s Vietnamese in four states – Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska and Washington.
It’s a Filipino language called Tagalog in Hawaii, California, and Nevada.
In four states, its Native American languages.
It’s French in 11 states.
And in 16 states, it’s German.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/20/americas-linguistic-melting-pot/?sr=fb052114linguisticmeltingpot130pVODtopphoto

680. Bart - May 21, 2014

@678. Ahmed- May 21, 2014

Is he? He does look damned good. Hope I age that well. But I STILL don’t want to see him in the next movie.

681. Bill Peters - May 21, 2014

675. Tom Yes,Harlan Ellison wants to be paid a lot for anyone to use The Guardian on TV or Movies, he tends to threaten to sue if you don’t want to pay him the ammount he wants for you to use it even if his asking price is too high for you to afford.

682. Bill Peters - May 21, 2014

CBS seems to have an unwillingness to syndicate a new Trek TV show on Cable, they seem yo right now have more interests are in crime drama and reality TV and Comedy then Trek, though I bet they will have a one shot special to celebrate the 50th like we did for other mile stones.

683. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#676. Bart – May 21, 2014

You might not want 80+ Shatner popping out at you, but he’s already doing it, in documentaries on cable, food shows, other TV shows’ episodes, talk shows, the Academy Awards, Priceline, and other commercials. and he’s been lobbying for a role in one of the new STAR WARS features.

It seems rather persnickety and futile to draw the line only at popping out of the Guardian.

684. Bart - May 21, 2014

@683. Disinvited – May 21, 2014

.”persnickety”, an underused word.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Shatner. Love seeing him springing up everywhere and hope he does so for years to come. He’s a national treasure, in two nations, as far as I’m concerned.

I just don’t want to see an old Kirk in the new movies.

He should not have allowed himself to be killed. I never needed to see (or even know) how my childhood hero met his end. And to pour salt on the wound, it was such a dumb plot line too.

685. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#316. Phil – May 15, 2014

And supposedly the T-800 was constructed to infiltrate and blend in with humans. Skynet would have to be the most idiotic AI imaginable if there weren’t variations on the model that looked flabby, or out of shape or old; or various combinations of all three, long before it developed the T-1000.

686. Disinvited - May 21, 2014

#684. Bart – May 21, 2014

Thanks for clarifying. I definitely understand the sentiment.

Do you find that your resentments are so strong that even if they could de-age him credibly, you’d still rather not?

How about as a voice on an animated TV Trek?

687. Phil - May 21, 2014

@686. Well, if you de-age him, in essence, you are creating an animated character anyway, so, yeah, let Shatner voice Jar Jar Kirk. De-aging very old actors, or reanimating John Wayne to be in the next Trek is just a stupid gimmick. I have no desire to see that anymore then I would a movie with every living (and apparently dead) cast member in it.

So, yeah. Been watching Trek since the 70’s, and I’d be the first person to not see it, and urge others not to as well.

The Guardian worked well as a fantastic device once. Use it again, and you are making an episode of Quantum Leap. Making WOK 2.0 was a creative dud. I’ve had my fill of Treks greatest hits….

688. Keachick (Rose) - May 21, 2014

#637 Ahmed – I have just come back to this site, so I have not read all the messages yet. The numbering of the posts seem to have gone askew because when I replied, post #629 was CecilofRil’s where he wrote “… But hey, why don’t you share your opinion.” CecilofRil is now post #631.

689. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 687. Phil – May 21, 2014

“De-aging very old actors, or reanimating John Wayne to be in the next Trek is just a stupid gimmick. I have no desire to see that anymore then I would a movie with every living (and apparently dead) cast member in it.

So, yeah. Been watching Trek since the 70′s, and I’d be the first person to not see it, and urge others not to as well.”

Good, don’t watch it. While you are at it, don’t watch Star Wars 7 as well, they have very OLD & UGLY people in that movie!!

690. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 688. Keachick (Rose) – May 21, 2014

“The numbering of the posts seem to have gone askew because when I replied, post #629 was CecilofRil’s where he wrote “… But hey, why don’t you share your opinion.” CecilofRil is now post #631.”

CecilofRil was addressing “Khan was framed” when he wrote that, not me.

691. Bart - May 21, 2014

@686. Disinvited – May 21, 2014

Animated TV series? Very interesting question. I

Here’s my problem with Shatner’s return, and I hope I can explain this properly, because I absolutely adore the guy, but I just can’t see him playing the role anymore. No matter what part he plays now, he’s Shatner. His persona has become bigger than any character. Even during Generations I felt like I was watching Shatner instead of Kirk. I’d never felt that way before.

So, if he could pull off the voice of Kirk without being too over the top, then I’d love to see another animated series.

But in the movies, I’d just want to see the new cast get an original story without relying on their prime universe counterparts.

692. Phil - May 21, 2014

@689. For that to be a valid comparison…..

You would have had to have some inside information that Ford, Fisher, and Hamill are being de-aged so they can revisit their glory days. Every indication so far has the terrific trio playing older versions of themselves. No issues with old or ugly people in movies, unless it’s pointless. Like shoehorning Shatner into the next movie would be.

693. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@692. Phil

” No issues with old or ugly people in movies, unless it’s pointless.”

Fair enough.

694. Keachick (Rose) - May 21, 2014

I agree with Marja. It is not that these concepts are necessarily so crazy. It is more a case of what can be told and reasonably explained in a 2+ hour film. The story needs to be kept simple (not the same as simplistic, btw) and straight forward, where the main nu-characters “get the floor”.

There are other ways in which all the Star Trek contributors – actors, writers, producers etc can be part of the 50th Anniversary celebrations and preparations should be underway by now and if not, why not?

I know that many do want to see some of the original TOS cast appear in one of these movies and valid suggestions have been put forward, eg Nichelle Nichols appear as nu-Uhura’s grandmother and similar for the other cast who are still with us. Because of what has already taken place in the prime universe and due to the fact that Vulcans can live far longer than even the healthiest human, Leonard Nimoy is really the only actor who can still play the original Spock, alongside the nu-Spock.

I do not know if it is negligence, hubris or whatever on anyone’s part, but if William Shatner still believes that he can pull off some damned good character acting, then his only option is to play nu-Kirk’s grandfather, great-uncle or some other older Kirk relative. So Bill Shatner – are you up for it?

@Bob Orci – writer, producer, director –
The next movie does not HAVE to be two hours long. If it is a good story, another ten minutes or whatever will not make a big difference and indeed, if done correctly, could well enhance the positive overall effect and increase viewer enjoyment. One or two skilfully placed, well written cameos with (some of) the original actors could be done without detracting from the main story, theme(s) and nu-characters.

If this cannot be done, with these scenes having a natural flow, then edit out and leave on the “cutting room floor”. Having said this, I do hope that an genuine effort to do it right will be made.

695. Keachick (Rose) - May 21, 2014

#690 Ahmed – Yes, I see now. You are right. My bad…:( I apologize.

696. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@694. Keachick (Rose)

“@Bob Orci – writer, producer, director –
The next movie does not HAVE to be two hours long. If it is a good story, another ten minutes or whatever will not make a big difference and indeed, if done correctly, could well enhance the positive overall effect and increase viewer enjoyment. One or two skilfully placed, well written cameos with (some of) the original actors could be done without detracting from the main story, theme(s) and nu-characters.

If this cannot be done, with these scenes having a natural flow, then edit out and leave on the “cutting room floor”. Having said this, I do hope that an genuine effort to do it right will be made.”

Well said. They really need to adds another 10-15 minutes to allow for more character moments. And if they could bring some of the old cast, great. If not, they could always put these scenes on the Blu-ray special edition or something.

“#690 Ahmed – Yes, I see now. You are right. My bad…:( I apologize.”

No need for an apology :-)

697. Bart - May 21, 2014

@694. Keachick (Rose) – May 21, 2014

Your Nichelle Nichols idea is excellent. If they want to pay tribute to the actors for the 50th, that’s a classy way to do it, as long as it doesn’t feel forced.

698. Who cares - May 21, 2014

@687/Phil. Do you happen to know the modern term for “broken record” by any chance? I ask because you have been a broken record with your inaccurate and silly “WOK 2.0″ comments for over a year now. Its getting pretty tiresome man.

699. Marja - May 21, 2014

655 Bart, YES. Thank you. We have had MORE than enough time travel in Trek to last a thousand lifetimes. The time travel paradoxes are worse than any plot devices engendered in a BR film.

and your 667, and others who speak of Premium TV Trek, I’m 100% behind a 10-12 episodes/year series of Trek in the NuVerse. As I’ve pointed out several times, Quinto has certainly been on episodic TV [10? 13? episodes for two seasons of "American Horror Story," which series is IMHO a new low in terrifying and disgusting television], which has still permitted him to appear on Broadway and produce other projects during each year.

I’m behind the idea of Premium TV Trek if it is available to people who don’t have the $$$ for cable TV. I strongly support the idea of Netflix or a similar platform. I don’t know about other folks, but Cable TV in my area of the country costs about $100/month for access to AMC and other semi-premium channels. HBO and Showtime bump that amount up another $30 or so. It’s ridiculous and a monopoly in most locales.

HBO and other channels produce “Game of Thrones” and such because they have big money from their subscriber base, and the quality of the programming wins the premium channel more subscribers. My understanding is an episode costs $1-2M to produce.
——————————————————————————————-
Mixing NuTrek and PrimeTrek, BAD IDEA in my opinion. I do like the idea of NuTrek crew perhaps seeing the PrimeTrek characters thru a Guardian of Forever or Vision Across Universes mechanism, but please, not as the main plot. Yikes.

700. Lurker - May 21, 2014

Kirk is dead – please leave him that way.

There is no magical Genesis device, Guardian of Forever, slingshot effect, Gary Seven time traveling device, Borg nano technology, or anything else for that matter that can or should be used to bring him back.

Let him rest in piece under a pile of rocks.

701. Marja - May 21, 2014

675, Tom,There are always legal issues when Harlan Ellison is involved, LOL

677 Ahmed, I think Phil’s point was that time travel has been probably the most over-used device in Trek. Personally, I’m tired of it.

694 Keachick, “The Amazing Spiderman 2″ clocked in at two hours 20 minutes. I hope to heck they can take at least that long with Trek3. Trek deserves to be high quality character-orienting thinking peoples’ drama, and that means including science fiction as opposed to “SWars”-style sci-fantasy.
——————————————————————————————
I really can’t say I want to see an animated Trek. What I saw of the videogame was painful to watch, even though the actors did their best at voicing it.
——————————————————————————————-
I still like the idea I voiced a few months ago, a scene in which a very senior-ranked group of elders are celebrating their 50th reunion as a crew, toasting and good-naturedly ribbing each other in a bar or other venue, overheard and seen by the NuTrek Seven, and Kirk could say something to McCoy like, “I hope we’ll all be lucky enough to celebrate together in 50 years” with McCoy riposting, “Yeah, but I hope I’ll still be around to celebrate with you. They really miss their doctor.” … NuCrew could be there to celebrate the launch of the Enterprise [right after the ceremony we saw at the end of STiD]. And … unexplained, PrimeSpock could be part of the group.

The movie could open in this way, then off we go on a grand adventure.

702. Cygnus-X1 - May 21, 2014

662. Mike Barnett – May 21, 2014

The line below doesn’t explain it but it does put the Duffel-Transporter into something like an “unknown” category:

“There are always possibilities, Spock said.”
-Captain Kirk (TWOK)

OK, but putting aside the physical issues (still waiting for Bob to explain how he envisaged quantum entanglement as the basis for the duffel-bag transporter scene at the time that he wrote it), what does that conceit do to Trek and to the believability of the Trek world?

Can people just instantaneously beam anywhere across the galaxy now in Trek? Trek has always been about space travel by means of space ships. Do people still need space ships in Trek?

The duffel-bag transporter scene was different in one important respect from the transwarp beaming scene in ST09, and yet in STID Scotty implies that Khan’s duffel-bag transporter is that same transwarp beaming device from ST09. If at the time that he wrote it, Bob envisaged quantum entanglement as the basis for the duffel-bag transporter scene in STID, then what accounts for the difference vis-a-vis the transwarp beaming scene in ST09? Or, did Bob only base transwarp beaming on quantum entanglement for STID, and he based it on some other science for ST09? Or, is “quantum entanglement” just an ex post facto explanation that he’s come up with now, years after he wrote ST09 and STID? Bob, these are questions for you. Inquiring minds want to know (“I want to know!”)

The main point being: Is there anything that can’t physically happen whenever and where ever Bob feels like having it happen in the Trek world now? Is the Trek world now like Middle Earth, a fantasy world where anything can happen and the how of physical events is largely irrelevant? The how of physical events is what we call, “Science.” Is Science now largely irrelevant in Trek? Is it the status quo modus operandi for Trek now that the writers will write fantastical stories with a lack thoughtfulness and care regarding the scientific implications of it all, and then…maybe…if enough people complain or express confusion about it, they’ll explain it away by making vague reference to the most mysterious, least understood areas of science? Oh, um…transwarp beaming duffel-bag transporter…sure, here’s a book on quantum entanglement…the answer could be in there somewhere…you figure it out.

It doesn’t seem like the way that things should be done in science fiction.

703. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2014

@662. Mike Barnett,
“The line below doesn’t explain it but it does put the Duffel-Transporter into something like an “unknown” category: There are always possibilities, Spock said.”

Yes, there are always possibilities … some more realistic than others.

How many fans thought the ‘emergency transporter’, the size of a postage stamp, that Picard used to beam himself back to the Enterprise at the end of Nemesis was a good idea?

So did somebody say, well that was a really dumb idea, but it were the size of a gym bag, then people can believe it could transport a person across the galaxy? Or was it a case of, well that’s canon (never mind not in the alt universe yet), so if something the size of a postage stamp could do that 100 years in the future, then something bigger could do more in 2259?

Here’s the thing, you’ve got a brand new universe, but instead of making it better than what came before, they are making the exact same mistakes, and fans like you are giving them a pass with quotes from TWOK.

704. Bill Peters - May 21, 2014

Bart-Harlan Ellison wants to be paid a lot for anyone to use The Guardian on TV or Movies, he tends to threaten to sue if you don’t want to pay him the ammount he wants for you to use it even if his asking price is too high for you to afford.

this is why the Guardian hasn’t been used

705. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@ 704. Bill Peters – May 21, 2014

“this is why the Guardian hasn’t been used”

Actually IDW comics is releasing his original script to comics in a five issue miniseries “Star Trek: Harlan Ellison’s The City on the Edge of Forever: The Original Teleplay.”

“Star Trek: Harlan Ellison’s Original City on the Edge of Forever Teleplay #1 (of 5) will be available in June and is under license by CBS Consumer Products”

http://www.idwpublishing.com/news/article/2754/

http://www.startrek.com/article/first-look-trek-comics-for-june

706. Marja - May 21, 2014

702 Cygnus, “Can people just instantaneously beam anywhere across the galaxy now in Trek? Trek has always been about space travel by means of space ships. Do people still need space ships in Trek?”

Criminey, nowadays we have small jet aircraft. Do those obviate the need for aircraft carriers?

NO.

707. Keachick (Rose) - May 21, 2014

#702/#703 – Really? Oh please…

Yes, Bob Orci, now be a good man and answer these people’s questions because I am tired of reading their silliness.

Oh wait – Bob – you did answer. I guess you will just have to keep answering. Maybe something will sink in…sigh…I can but hope…

I am not Herbert – I have been talking about synchronicity off and on for five years, since the release of Star Trek 2009. I first mentioned it on the Star Trek 2009 IMDb message board and later when I started posting here. I explained this concept in relation to how Kirk just happened to meet prime Spock on Delta Vega and pointed out examples that I had heard people tell and of what I had myself experienced.

Way ahead of you, mate, and I suspect I always have been.

708. Marja - May 21, 2014

702 Cygnus, “The main point being: Is there anything that can’t physically happen whenever and where ever Bob feels like having it happen in the Trek world now?”

Agree with you here. The science fiction should be extrapolated from science reality or possibilities, not created out of whole cloth. That IS a dismaying aspect of NuTrek, but again, they only have about 2 hours every 3-4 years, and can’t spend time on exposition. What they present should be something we can recognize as future science.

709. Who cares - May 21, 2014

@701. Personally I love time travel stories, time travel, time loops, and alternate/parallel dimension stories are my absolute favorite sub-genres of science fiction. It goes all the way back to my early childhood and reading “The Time Traders” and “Galactic Derelict” by Andre Norton, and of course watching TOS.

I’ll shell out money for a Trek film involving time travel faster than for one without it, and I will never get tired of time travel in Trek.

Not trying to start a fight, just giving an honest opinion.

710. Commodore Adams - May 21, 2014

@ 708. Marja – “2 hours every 3-4 years” “recognize as future science” an apt response.

@ 709. Who cares
Same, I’m a sucker for the time travel sub genre. I love all the time travel episodes from TOS – ENT.

711. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2014

@706. Marja,
“Criminey, nowadays we have small jet aircraft. Do those obviate the need for aircraft carriers?”

Well I agree with this. The conclusion does not follow the argument. It’s hyperbole.

Nevertheless, it does raise concerns. If people can just beam instantaneously across the galaxy, and using a device the size of an overnight bag to boot, as has been demonstrated in the last two movies (so it’s a thing now) then there’s no more need for Journey To Babel episodes when they go back to TV. Exploration, defense patrols — yes, but sending a patient to a starbase for surgery, a prisoner, a student … how about just going back to Earth during your weekend off while on Space Patrol. Suddenly the Enterprise is no longer cut off from Starfleet while in deep space. That would probably eliminate about half the episodes from TOS. And I just don’t think that’s something they should be doing.

712. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@709. Who cares, 710. Commodore Adams

I’m with you there. Lets not forget that some of the best sci-fi movies involved time travel/time loop ..etc

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek 09
Planet of the Apes
The Terminator franchise
The Time Machine (1960)
Escape From The Planet of the Apes
Source Code
12 Monkeys
Back to the Future franchise
Groundhog Day
Looper
Primer

713. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@711. Curious Cadet

“If people can just beam instantaneously across the galaxy, and using a device the size of an overnight bag to boot, as has been demonstrated in the last two movies (so it’s a thing now) then there’s no more need for Journey To Babel episodes when they go back to TV.”

Well, they could always keep it in Area 51 with very limited access :-)

714. Cervantes - May 21, 2014

@ # 674 boborci –

Bob, it seems that you’ve misinterpreted my response to your # 642 comments concerning your link to that complex ‘quantum entanglement/nonlocality’ article you mentioned. But no worries, as it was probably just due to the way I worded my first sentance.

Having read that article (and then a couple of others on the same thing just afterwards), I actually meant the theory did indeed seem to be widely accepted by theoretical physicists over the years, when I replied about it.

And while it’s not the kind of thing that I’ve previously studied up on, it’s certainly mind-blowing stuff… – I mean, the fact that particles that are billions of light years apart seem to be able to have an instantaneous (much faster than light speed!) effect and interaction with each other…and be able to transfer their ‘information’ between themselves, regardless of the ‘distance of space’ separating them…well, that’s certainly a profound concept to get your head around. And certainly defies how we normally perceive the way things work in the universe overall.
__________________________________________________________

699. Marja – May 21, 2014

‘Mixing NuTrek and PrimeTrek, BAD IDEA in my opinion. I do like the idea of NuTrek crew perhaps seeing the PrimeTrek characters thru a Guardian of Forever or Vision Across Universes mechanism, but please, not as the main plot. Yikes.’

The old nugget of whether it would be good to see certain actors/characters re-united onscreen in these latest reboots, or not, will remain a source of differing opinions amongst everyone here…but just to clarify Marja, I wasn’t actually proposing that that be the main plot.

The discovery of a Nu-‘Guardian’ device on some as-yet-unexplored planet in the Nu-‘timeline’ would have just been a way to inject something ‘mysterious’ into the movie…as well as giving a type of ‘moral dilemma’ for the Nu-crew in whether to go through it, or not…as well as allowing for a way to bring certain other characters into the proceedings, if it was wished by the makers.

Thing is, unlike the original TOS episode it was featured in (which most of the current new audience have probably never seen, sadly)…it could have been shown to be situated on a planet that a landing party get to explore this time around…allowing for a build-up to it’s reveal. And with today’s effects technology, an interesting amount of life on that planet could be included in a set-piece or two, before we get to the ‘Guardian’ itself…whether the planet was supposedly made to seem ‘long dead’ or seen to be still lush instead.

However, the MAIN adventure in this kind of set-up would occur once the Nu-crew (or *someone* from it) decide to enter through the portal. It’s this adventure that would take up the majority of the running time, *whatever* the enemy they have to face, after having gone through it.

In fact, the storyline could have even been made to take place over TWO movies, to keep the outcome uncertain for a little longer in the scheme of things!

And if anyone’s interested in my suggestion of the Nu-‘Guardian’ having the capability to show an extremely advanced kind of ‘inter-timeline/universe’ holographic communication between certain characters, if wished by the makers…then here’s where I got the notion for that – scroll way down this page to the information under the heading that says ‘Weak coupling’, and read what it says there –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

At the end of the day, it’s not as if any of these ideas are gonna influence the course of things in any way, as the writers have *already* come up with the kind of storyline they want to do. I was just giving an idea of the things I’d have personally liked to see included, if given a choice.

715. Who cares - May 21, 2014

@710 Ahmed & 712 Commodore Adams.

There are also a great many wonderful episodes of various TV series outside of Trek that dealt with time travel/time loops etc. Like that great time loop episode on SG-1 where every time the loop reset Teal’c got hit in the face with a door (except the one time he shoved the door back into the same poor “regular extra” who got hurt all the time) and O’Neil spent one loop driving golf balls through the stargate. Or for that matter Stargate Continuum where Col. Sheppard became a living grandfather paradox after B’all killed his grandfather, the captain of the ship bringing the stargate from Egypt to the US.

Not to mention Trek’s older cousin Doctor Who which revolves around time travel, and tesseracts, though not the way Marvel Studios uses the term.

On the “fantasy” side of the time travel spectrum Charmed had a few good time travel stories, including the final episode. Sleepy Hollow’s Ichabod Crane is a kind of time traveler, though I do not currently believe he will be able to return to the past physically (I leave open the possibility to be proven wrong next season, looking at you Bob ;)).

Time Travel is a big part of what got me into reading Superman comic books too. Superman’s “classic” (or Pre-Crisis to comic book readers) history includes spending part of his teen years 1000 years in the future (30th/31st century) as a member of a team of teen heroes inspired by his legend. In a nice twist Superman considers this teem to have actually taught him the very heroic ideals that they say he inspired them for.

That team btw is the one that met Captain James Kirk and his crew a while back in the comics. The Legion of Super Heroes/Star Trek crossover, which was very well done. There you see, just like I tell all my friends, eventually my stream of consciousness always loops back around to Trek. :)

716. Adolescent Nightmare - May 21, 2014

I should point out that I’m going to win the Star Wars contest so there is no reason for anyone else to enter. Just go back to dufel bags and pointless attempts to bring back the past.

717. Son of Captain Garth - May 21, 2014

#661: Cut and paste as in the script for STID, as well as ST09 both had elements from previous Treks. ST09 had another “eject the warp core” and “angry Romulan with a bigger ship” and another “scaly thing forcibly put into the body for interrogation”; STID had KhAAAAAAAAAAAAAn, major elements of TWOK literally lifted from it for STID, another “angry guy with a bigger ship,” section 31, etc. So, as a director, perhaps Orci will continue his “creativity by Xerox” approach and just steal visuals as well, like the lens flares (let’s hope not), visual elements from other franchises (like JJ’s two-film homage to the project he really wanted–Star Wars). Maybe the Enterprise will transform into a fighting robot, etc.

#712. The fact that you can point out three Trek films alone that have used time travel might be part of the problem. How many Trek TV episodes? Hell, if you’re going to cannibalize Trek, why not go whole hog? Why not have Wesley Crusher come back in time and save everyone by cloning Porthos, because they don’t have cute Captain’s mascots in the future and the Federation of the 24th century is being threatened by a huge, mysterious garbage can that has a glowing soccer ball hanging on the end of it? Why, you may ask, is Porthos in the 23rd century of Nu-Trek? Because when Eric Bana’s character went back in time, it caused a causality ripple that caught up Porthos, which then changed the timeline of Enterprise so that Archer will never become the great ambassador he was destined to become. Somehow, despite all of the convoluted quantum mechanics, Wesley managed to build a bubble around him using a tachyon pulse. He was able to return Porthos to Archer, thus effectively hitting the reset button once again. Maybe Orci could squeeze in a couple of lines from Insurrection and Nemesis to save money on rewrites.

718. Mike Barnett - May 21, 2014

703. Curious Cadet
“Here’s the thing, you’ve got a brand new universe, but instead of making it better than what came before, they are making the exact same mistakes, and fans like you are giving them a pass with quotes from TWOK.”

Yes I am giving them a pass because 99.0175% of the fans out there could care less about the stupid duffel-transporter. 99.0175% of the people who view Star Trek movies or TV shows are in it for the entertainment value, not some known scientific theory.

Sometimes these Trekmovie comment boards can put me in a sour mood. ~sigh~

719. Ahmed - May 21, 2014

@718. Mike Barnett,

“99.0175% of the people who view Star Trek movies or TV shows are in it for the entertainment value, not some known scientific theory.”

99.0175% !!! Did you get that number from Gallup or PEW ? :-)

720. boborci - May 21, 2014

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/05/20/matador-el-rey-first-look/

721. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2014

@718. Mike Barnett,
“99.0175% of the people who view Star Trek movies or TV shows are in it for the entertainment value, not some known scientific theory.”

That’s good, because as a devout Mormon, Payne may well write into canon that the universe was created 6,000 years ago, and all of the human race descended from Adam, himself the image of the sole creator of all things, who now currently resides on the planet Kolob, which the Enterprise might just visit in the next movie (finally they’re going to give Star Trek V the respect it deserves).

But as you say, that’s all OK as long as the audience is entertained.

722. boborci - May 21, 2014

“OK, but putting aside the physical issues (still waiting for Bob to explain how he envisaged quantum entanglement as the basis for the duffel-bag transporter scene at the time that he wrote it), what does that conceit do to Trek and to the believability of the Trek world?

… the additional conceit of compressing the whole transporter device from a spaceship with all of its power supply, computer and other technology into a duffel bag, and then the even further conceit of increasing the range of the transporter (which now fits comfortably inside a duffel bag) from planetary orbit to planet surface, to a quarter of the distance across the Milky Way Galaxy…I mean, the last winking pretense of science-fiction has now gone right out the window. ”

———-

The complaint you have, as you stated above, is one of distance. And I quote “the to then even further conceit of increasing the range… to a quarter the distance across the Milky Way Galaxy… [is] the last winking pretense of science fiction…”

Perhaps you should read the summary again. Quantum entanglement is cited as evidence that the universe is NON-LOCAL. Meaning, distance is an illusion, and therefore not a barrier. So your conclusion that a greater distance is a problem is also an illusion.

723. boborci - May 21, 2014

Cygnus-1

Hi again.

The theory referred to as Quantum Mechanics may seem like a “vague reference to the most mysterious, least understood areas of science” to you, but is actually an old, well established theory, and considered to be the most successful theory in the history of science.

http://www.newscientist.com/topic/quantum-world

As to your notion that we backed into the theory after complaints, I’ve discussed ad-nasuem on this very site that the internal logic of the 09 movie can only be explained by conforming to this very theory. Spock and Prime Spock’s final conversation refers to this, as does the fact that Spock Prime remembers his past from an alternate universe, which can only be explained by the muti-universe theory which is based, too, on Quantum Mehcanis. You can ask the others to point out the exact references or elaborate and I’m sure someone will accommodate you. Sleep well!

724. Harry Ballz - May 21, 2014

Bob, if memory serves, right about now……you’d be serving up one of your exquisite abstract convoluted clues as to what the next film is all about….so vague that the Sphinx would be proud.

Well?

725. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

# 694. Keachick (Rose) – May 21, 2014

” I do not know if it is negligence, hubris or whatever on anyone’s part, but if William Shatner still believes that he can pull off some damned good character acting, then his only option is to play nu-Kirk’s grandfather, great-uncle or some other older Kirk relative. So Bill Shatner – are you up for it?” — Keachick (Rose)

Since he already played Kirk’s dead brother in the series, I don’t see why not. The only thing is, like Harlan, he likes to be paid.

And since I’ve brought him up, I really don’t get why others have no problem with what we now know as CBS milking characters and stories for 47+ years that they had absolutely no hand in creating having bought them from Desilu, but Harlan, who actually did have a hand in it, they would have just abandon all his rights to compensation because he’s profited from them “long enough”?

And as the matter has reached a settlement, as long as CBS sticks to its terms, there is no obstacle to using CotEoF.

http://variety.com/2009/film/news/ellison-paramount-settle-lawsuit-1118010298/

# 715. Who cares – May 21, 2014, #710 Ahmed & #712 Commodore Adams.

For me, it was Norton’s DEFIANT AGENTS, which is why I don’t have troubles with it per se, I just have a problem with how Trek came to later employ it to resolve conflict as A BIG RED BUTTON that when you hit it everything goes back to exactly the way it was and no character has a chance to learn anything from the experience.

That’s what makes Harlan’s story so powerful as each of the characters that enters The Guardian faces consequences for their travels in time. And we know Kirk suffered his when he gets back and says “Let’s get the hell out of here.” — a line which had its own censor battle when it first aired such that it was know as television’s “Butler” (GwtW) moment.

I have often pondered: what if McCoy hadn’t saved Keeler; how long would his time trip have been? Or would it have been a case of all Kirk would have to do is ask The Guardian to return him?

726. DJT - May 22, 2014

Any openings on the *ahem* Supreme Court? I’ve got some spare time coming up. Maybe a paralegal spot? Parking attendant? “Mr Orci can I get you some coffee?”

Just sayin’. Get some of that 3% in the mix.

727. Admiral_Bumblebee - May 22, 2014

I think most people here should think a bit more out of the box. Casual moviegoers will recognize William Shatner as James T. Kirk. If he is playing someone else there are some people who will not get it. They will think that it is James T. Kirk. It is an iconic role that Shatner played and people will always see him as James T. Kirk.
So if you include Shatner into a Star Trek movie he will be James T. Kirk for the audience and in order to avoid confusion you would have to really include him as James T. Kirk,
The same with Patrick Stewart. He is Jean-Luc Picard (or Professor X but that would not make sense in a Star Trek movie). So if you include Patrick Stewart he would have to be Jean-Luc Picard.

And I have to say that I don’t want to see some generic TV-Trekking-episode for the 50th anniversary movie of Star Trek. It has to be something epic. And what could be more epic than a multi-universe spanning story in which Patrick Stewart would be back as Jean-Luc Picard and William Shatner would reprise his role as James T. Kirk?

It would be a marketing coup like it was the case with bringing the old cast of Star Wars back to the series.

I really can’t imagine that the casual moviegoer would be that much interested in a generic Star Trek episode adventure on the big screen. Hell, even I as a Trek fan am not interested in that…

728. Elias Javalis - May 22, 2014

It would be Good to see the 2 Abrams Universes as reference Movies,

a. What can i contribute to make Trek better, infusing elements from wars,
b. The exact opposite.

729. Who cares - May 22, 2014

@727. Not so fast there Admiral, some years back there was an X-Men/TNG crossover published by Marvel Comics which took place immediately after First Contact as the temporal rift they opened to get home instead deposited them in the X-Men’s universe and time (though the X-Men in the comics have access to extraterrestrial tech at least the equal of TNG).

I don’t recall if Professor X and Captain Picard met face to face in the story but thinking about Sir Patrick playing that double role makes me smile. Maybe Disney/Marvel (and Fox I know) and CBS/Paramount could work out a deal for a TV special for the 50th as well as the next theatrical release. Just kidding, about the TV special thing, the comic book is real.

@725. I get your point, I really do, but maybe I am a little more willing to forgive some instances. For instance, the most obvious “reset button” in Trek (IMO) would be at the end of “Year of Hell Part 2″ when Janeway had the ships attacking the temporal dreadnaught to drop their temporal shields before the temporal core exploded and literally reset time across a wide section of space. This resulted in the events of YOH never happening, either for the Voyager crew or for anyone else, so Seven never actually got to keep what she learned assisting a blinded Tuvok. Janeway lost her realization that she could not in fact do everything alone, and so on.

But because when Janeway reset time she undid all of the damage wrought on the timeline by the story’s villain, even the damage his work did to his own people. She restored literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of worlds and their people, hundreds of billions of lives, some of the other ones have been more questionable though I will admit.

One of the ones that bugs me the most though isn’t because it has time travel. There is an episode of Enterprise where a number of Borg, casualties of the failed attempt to stop First Contact, were discovered in the Arctic, and later revived, assimilated the scientists that discovered them, took a ship and made a beeline for Borg space.

My problem comes down to one basic point, I feel it is out of character for either Jean-Luc or Starfleet’s Temporal Investigations to have left that contamination in the past in violation of the Temporal Prime Directive.

I mean come on they sent a whole group of ships out to pick up the pieces of Enterprise D so the primitive inhabitants of a neighboring planet wouldn’t someday stumble across it after they had already discovered interplanetary travel. But they didn’t send someone back to pick up all the Borg bodies and tech from Earth’s past???

Hey I can nitpick with the best of them when I want to :).

Anyway I’m gettin’ tired, almost 2:30 Am out here, later all

730. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#703. Curious Cadet – May 21, 2014

My problem with the duffel-bag transporter, is while it might make some sort of fashion statement, it doesn’t make technological design sense for the culture it was designed for.

Does it make any kind of a sense as a “backup” or emergency transport on an away mission? No. Use it on Iotia and while you’ve made a successful exit, you’ve left behind a bag with an advanced piece of technology to contaminate the culture.

Does it make any kind of sense for soldiers to use it in the battlefield? Nope. Use it to get out of sticky combat situations and you’ve handed the enemy a bag with all your transwarp beaming secrets inside.

Now I suppose these problems could be addressed with a built in self-destruct but then one has to ask “Why didn’t Khan’s bag have one?”

Release the bag for general public use and it will require some sort of program to clear the streets littered with duffel bags.

I supposed a double bag system where you use one to transport the other bag ahead to your destination and that transported bag self-actuates and retrieves you holding the first bag. But that sure seems clumsy and again, why didn’t Khan employ it?

731. Johan Albrechtsen - May 22, 2014

Thought you guys might enjoy this :-) I interviewed James McAvoy at an X-Men junket recently, and knowing that he’s a HUGE trekkie, I asked him about acting opposite Captain Picard. Loved his impersonation of Stewart! :-)

http://youtu.be/MJouhNnf_zc?t=7m44s

Rock on, fellow trekkies!

732. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

723. boborci – May 21, 2014

The theory referred to as Quantum Mechanics may seem like a “vague reference to the most mysterious, least understood areas of science” to you, but is actually an old, well established theory, and considered to be the most successful theory in the history of science.

As to your notion that we backed into the theory after complaints, I’ve discussed ad-nasuem on this very site that the internal logic of the 09 movie can only be explained by conforming to this very theory. Spock and Prime Spock’s final conversation refers to this, as does the fact that Spock Prime remembers his past from an alternate universe, which can only be explained by the muti-universe theory which is based, too, on Quantum Mehcanis. You can ask the others to point out the exact references or elaborate and I’m sure someone will accommodate you. Sleep well!

Bob, by “a vague reference to the most mysterious, least understood areas of science” I was referring specifically to quantum entanglement, but the entirety of Quantum Mechanics is actually among the least understood fields of science. That’s what the top particle physicists in the world say. Richard Feynman, one of the pioneers of QM said, “I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.”
Steven Weinberg, another Nobel laureate and QM giant, said, “There is now, in my opinion, no entirely satisfactory interpretation of quantum mechanics.”

Quantum Entanglement is basically just an observation of a strange phenomenon which appears to be a regular aspect of our universe, but nobody really knows how it works or why it happens. If Feynman and Weinberg don’t understand it, you can be sure that no one else does.

And I have said many times at this site that I give you credit for discussing the QM/MWI as relating to your ST09 Alt Universe premise, though the topic of QM was extra-curricular to your movie and not discussed in your movie at all beyond a vague, unspecified reference to an “alternate reality.”

Incidentally, as I have also said a few times at this site (once earlier in this thread, I think), of all the rationales for a multiverse, the MWI/QM is the least popular among top physicists as it lacks any direct evidence. If you had bothered with a science consultant for your $190 million Trek movie, he’d likely have suggested going with the theory of Cosmic Inflation as the basis for a multiverse.

Direct evidence of Cosmic Inflation in the form of gravity waves was actually observed earlier this year. It’s an extremely exciting area of science that would have been an awesome inclusion for your movie. And it would have made you look very smart and inspiring today, given the discovery of gravity waves earlier this year. Yet another missed opportunity.

At any rate, I’ve never taken issue with the Alt Universe premise of ST09, and you’ve never made any references to QM in your movies (beyond Uhura remarking, “an alternate reality?”). And the Alt Universe premise was already provided for you by Trek, anyway—from TOS “The Alternative Factor” (as Disinvited pointed out) and “Mirror, Mirror” to the various TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT episodes which utilized the Alt Universe premise.

The point being, I haven’t criticized you regarding the scientific basis for your Alt Universe premise, and I haven’t criticized you for referencing QM in general. My criticism is regarding your reliance upon increasingly fantastical conceits, like red matter, duffel-bag transporter, magic blood which have far-reaching and pervasive implications for Trek and for which you provide little or no specific scientific basis in your Trek movies.

You don’t appear to have thought through the duffel-bag transporter at the time that your wrote it, save perhaps a vague notion that it might be explicable via quantum entanglement. And there’s not even any indication in STID that quantum entanglement was supposed to be the basis of the duffel-bag conceit. And, as you’re not giving any specific explanation here for how you envisaged that it was supposed to work, I can only assume that you didn’t really think it through and didn’t consult with a scientist about it.

733. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

722. boborci – May 21, 2014

The complaint you have, as you stated above, is one of distance. And I quote “the to then even further conceit of increasing the range… to a quarter the distance across the Milky Way Galaxy… [is] the last winking pretense of science fiction…”

Perhaps you should read the summary again. Quantum entanglement is cited as evidence that the universe is NON-LOCAL. Meaning, distance is an illusion, and therefore not a barrier. So your conclusion that a greater distance is a problem is also an illusion.

Yes, Bob. I know what quantum entanglement is. But, “a vague reference to the most mysterious, least understood areas of science” is actually all that you are providing. I was waiting for you to briefly explain exactly how you envisaged quantum entanglement as the basis for the duffel-bag transporter at the time that you wrote it, but as you’re not offering any such explanation, I’ll go ahead and raise some concerns about it:

In order to get pairs of entangled particles—presumably one pair for each particle in Khan’s body plus every other object on his person to be transported—those particles have to be generated together, in the same place. So, while it has been observed that entangled particles can affect each other in certain ways even after they have been separated by vast distances, i.e. non-local interaction, the genesis of that relationship is local.

So, what? So, this means that, if your duffel-bag transporter operates via quantum entanglement, the first thing that Khan would have needed was a pair of entangled particles as stand-ins for every particle in his body plus everything on him. I should note here that this collection of particles would have the same mass and occupy the same volume as the things being transported, i.e. Khan + his stuff.

The collection of to-be-Khan entangled particles would then have to be stored at the location where Khan would ultimately want to end up. In the scene from STID, that location was Kronos, a planet roughly 100 light-years from Earth, in the Beta Quadrant. The transportation process—and this has been discussed by very reputable physicists, like Brian Greene—would then work like this:

As I said, entangled particles are generated in pairs, and we now have two sets of entangled particles—each particle in one set has an entangled counterpart in the other set. One set of particles is at the destination location on Kronos (presumably in some sort of human-sized chamber attached to a scanning device), while the other set would be somewhere else.

A device (presumably the one inside the duffel bag) would then scan both Khan + his stuff as well as the other, non-Kronos set of entangled particles (i.e. the set not at the destination location on Kronos). The scanner maps the differences between the particles in the non-Kronos set vis-a-vis the non-entangled set comprising Khan + his stuff.

That information is then communicated somehow to the chamber on Kronos which houses the other set of entangled particles. The Kronos chamber (and its scanning counterpart to the duffel-bag device) would then apply the information relating to how the non-Kronos particle set differs from all of the particles making up Khan + his stuff. The set of particles on Kronos now takes on states which specifically (and by design) differ from the states of all the particles in the non-Kronos set. The Kronos set now becomes Khan + his stuff, and the former set of particles making up Khan + his stuff on Earth is destroyed in the process. Presumably the non-Kronos set of particles remains on Earth (or where ever it was).

My concerns:

(1) Where was the non-Kronos set of particles? (Obviously it wasn’t in the duffel-bag because it wouldn’t fit in there.)

(2) Presumably, the non-Kronos set of particles would have to be near the device scanning it. If not, how would the device know where to look for the non-Kronos set without a signal from the non-Kronos set to the duffel-bag device communicating their location and basically saying to the duffel-bag device, “hey, I’m over here. scan me!

(3) If the non-Kronos set was housed in a chamber at some third location (See how much of your job I am doing for you here, Bob?), then where was that location? Why weren’t we shown it, even if just for one second of screen time?

(4) The “transwarp beaming device” which you conceived for ST09 is implied by Scotty in STID to be the same technology as Khan’s duffel-bag device. However, in ST09, Scotty and Kirk transport from Delta Vega to the Enterprise, a location where Scotty has never been before and which therefore could not contain a chamber filled with an entangled set of to-be-Scotty particles. Also, since Scotty invents and builds the transwarp beaming device on Delta Vega (and extremely quickly, I might add!! I mean, WOW!! Instant, fantastical technology—just add water!!) there could not have been a set of entangled to-be-Kirk particles on the Enterprise, either. Even if the duffel-bag device in STID were to be based on quantum entanglement, the transwarp beaming device from ST09 can’t be, as it’s missing necessary components. So, what accounts for these two, obviously different technologies which Scotty implies are the same?

(5) Back to the duffel-bag scene in STID…the duffel-bag device would have to communicate its particle mapping (the non-Kronos set, and the soon-to-be-destroyed Khan + his stuff set) to its counterpart technology (chamber + scanner) on Kronos, 100 light years away. That means the signal from the duffel-bag traveling at the speed of light would take around 100 years to reach Kronos.

In Trek, there is the subspace communications conceit, which allows for communications between faraway places apparently instantaneously. This conceit does not withstand scrutiny, but we recognize that it is necessary in order to tell Trek stories in a limited amount of time. Communicating between faraway places is a basic premise of Trek, and there’s just no way around that. So, as with TOS-style transporter technology, we suspend our disbelief because the benefits that we get from the conceit are worth its cost in terms of believability.

But, your duffel-bag transporter isn’t worth its cost in terms of believability. Khan didn’t have to instantaneously beam to Kronos in your story. Khan could have fled the scene of the crime in any number of ways that were more believable.

One of the complaints by myself and others is that you are standing on the shoulders of the giants who created all of the scientific conceits (not to mention all of the characters and backstories) which you have at your disposal to exploit in your movies, and yet you don’t even bother to write within the bounds of those conceits which were conceived by necessity.

Instead, you pile further conceits atop of the ones provided for you, conceit atop conceit atop conceit, until the eventual result is so fantastical that it no longer seems like science fiction or like Trek. You don’t bother explaining or even hinting at a scientific basis for conceits like your duffel-bag transporter and Red Matter, and we can only conclude that the apparent lack of thoughtfulness and care with regard to the scientific basis for your technological conceits is exactly what it appears to be.

If you’d bothered to have a science consultant for your movies (like TOS and TNG regularly employed) then you’d have based your technology on actual science and your movies would have reflected that. But, your approach to Trek seems more akin to comic-book movies, which by their nature are fantastical and lacking in thoughtfulness and concern for scientific values and sensibilities.

If you had scientific bases for your duffel-bag transporter and Red matter, you could have shown them, even by way of graphic implication, with very little screen time—literally a few seconds apiece. The fact that you didn’t bother with any of that can only be interpreted as you not having bothered to think through the scientific implications of your technological conceits beyond a vague sort of, well, it might be explicable with quantum entanglement. And what’s Red Matter, then? Is that quantum entanglement, too?

Why don’t you hire a science consultant for your $150 million science fiction movie, for crying out loud? What, it’s not worth the expense to keep Star Trek scientifically valid and relevant? You’ve had everything handed to you on a plate in terms of Trek; don’t you think that you could give a little back, or at least show some respect for the artistic tradition and body of work that you are exploiting? Or, if comic-book movies are really more your style, then why don’t you go specialize in comic-book movies and let someone with Trek values and sensibilities do Trek?

734. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

711. Curious Cadet – May 21, 2014

@706. Marja,
“Criminey, nowadays we have small jet aircraft. Do those obviate the need for aircraft carriers?”

Well I agree with this. The conclusion does not follow the argument. It’s hyperbole.

Right, I didn’t mean: do they need spaceships at all. But I have seen this concern as implied by the duffel-bag transporter raised in reviews critical of STID.

The next time in Trek that someone is going on a mission somewhere on a ship, we’ll be thinking: Do they really need to the ship to be doing this? You mentioned one scenario. Another would be some sort of man-hunt to capture a dangerous person or to rescue a person in jeopardy. No need to leave the comfort of your living room now for either of those types of missions.

A Federation space station has been attacked overrun by hostile aliens. The situation would be grim…if not for the magical duffel-bag transporter! Just beam the good guys from the station to the comfortable, well-decorated lobby at Federation HQ, and beam the bad guys into jail cells. Beam a crew of engineers, maintenance personnel and an officer from Federation HQ to the station to tidy up the place and put everything back in order, and what in pre-BR-Trek would have been a seriously troubling event and plot premise is now but a minor inconvenience. No need to call in the cavalry, just unzip the duffel bag and it’s Miller time in no time flat.

735. Vultan - May 22, 2014

So they’ve developed a scientific theory to explain convoluted movie scripts? Cool! They can call it the Orci Hyperbolic Multidimensional Expanse. When things don’t add up in a story, don’t worry, in some reality they do.

Science!!!

736. metronome - May 22, 2014

@712 Ahmed

“Lets not forget that some of the best sci-fi movies involved time travel/time loop ..etc”

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek 09
Planet of the Apes
The Terminator franchise
The Time Machine (1960)
Escape From The Planet of the Apes
Source Code
12 Monkeys
Back to the Future franchise
Groundhog Day
Looper
Primer

——-

Star Trek 09? Really?
Please tell me it ended on your list by mistake.

It’s more like one of the lousiest sc-ifi movies ever! Exploding planets, supernovas that threaten galaxies (!), “red matter”, and so on…. We’re not in 1950s anymore, it’s 2000s!

And, btw, Groundhog Day isn’t really a sci-fi movie. It doesn’t involve any time travel. The repetition the main character experiences is based on the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence.

737. Keachick - May 22, 2014

CygnusX1 – Why do watch any Star Trek? What about the fact that TOS consistently showed Enterprise crew beam down to planets they had just discovered and then beam back to the Enterprise again. That’s a huge conceit that has never really been explained, yet we continue to watch the various series and movies, all with this transporter technology, and just take it as a given for this particular story/series.

The transporter technology shown in the first TOS episodes can probably only be explained by some form of quantum entanglement that future scientists could set in motion and control at will – most of the time… The same applies to warp drive, which has a starship going many times faster than the speed of light, which so far has not been proved possible either.
As Bob and the articles mention, distance is not such an issue and this also allows for subspace communication to occur.

The truth is that this alternative way of the *universe* operating is as likely governed by certain principles or *Laws*, if you will, as does this *universe* we are only just becoming familiar with, operates according to certain *Laws*. I think that they operate simultaneously and may well overlap more often than not. The Laws/principles are simply not understood and may never be, due to how the way that much of the human brain functions. This kind of brain function is important to our physical survival in the “world” that we need to live in.

However, just because it seems so fantastical, not apparently scientifically based/proven, does not mean that we have, or indeed, should ignore it.
LOTR’s Wizard Gandalf is mentioned – well this wizard appears to be capable of experiencing and functioning within both kinds of realities simultaneously. It is just who and how he is…

Star Trek is just as scientifically valid and relevant now as it has always been – or not!

#642 – Reading the link that you provided reminded me of some of Buddhist Dharma translations that I read many years ago. People were saying similar 2/3,000 years ago (maybe more). This is not new. Gestalt is just one of the later ones to hit on these concepts.

Bob Orci – please – do not be dissuaded by people who clearly do not grasp even the tiniest smidgen. If they did, they would not be writing post #733 and the like.

738. Keachick - May 22, 2014

And all this angst over an alien chemical compound colloquially called “red matter”. Honestly, I cannot believe the general stupidity demonstrated by so many here.

OK – I am quite tired and all this is making me frustrated, irritated, grumpy. I need to go…before I get moderated…:( for saying something that should not be said.

See ya! Need to get a good night’s sleep – yeah, that might help!

739. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

737. Keachick – May 22, 2014

Your comments suggest that you are reading some of my posts but not others. Either that, or you are selectively cherry-picking certain points while ignoring others.

Either way, answering your questions would require me to reiterate much of what I’ve already said. My suggestion would be to scroll back up and take note of certain points that I’ve made, such as those regarding the TOS transporter conceit and differences between good technological conceits and bad ones, necessary conceits vs. unnecessary conceits. Also the traditional values and sensibilities of Trek that attracted legions of loyal fans over the decades and inspired so many people, including astronauts, to become scientists.

740. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

737. Keachick – May 22, 2014

And it’s not just the duffel-bag transporter, magic blood and Red Matter.

It’s mistakes like a supernova threatening the entire galaxy. Like Spock’s magical space suit which keeps him safe inside a volcano while the much larger and presumably more technologically advanced Enterprise and shuttle pod can’t fly over the volcano to rescue Spock because of the heat. It’s the Enterprise parking underwater for reason.

And then there’s the most un-Spock-like Spock Prime, who violates the Prime Directive to save an alien culture but then refuses to violate it to save himself—that is, when he’s not crying and having his regular emotional freak-outs. It’s the plot-driven approach to the movies, rather than a character or theme-driven approach of the TOS movies. It’s the lack of thematic and character development. It’s the shallow meaningless of it all. It’s the valuation of meaningless, unnecessary action scenes (like the monster chase) over what could/should have been places for character, thematic and conceptual development. And so on….

741. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

P.S.

Oh, I almost forgot one of the worst ones….

It’s the 10-second space voyage from the Klingon Neutral Zone back to Earth, 50 light-years away! Hey, why didn’t TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT think to do that? Voyager didn’t really need to spend 7 years trying to get back to Earth from the Delta Quadrant 70,000 light years away.

Let me guess……quantum entanglement?

742. Cygnus-X1 - May 22, 2014

Corrections: 740. Cygnus-X1 – May 22, 2014

It’s mistakes like a supernova threatening the entire galaxy. Like Spock’s magical space suit which keeps him safe inside a volcano while the much larger and presumably more technologically advanced Enterprise and shuttle pod can’t fly over the volcano to rescue Spock because of the heat. It’s the Enterprise parking underwater for *NO* reason.

And then there’s the most un-Spock-like *ALT* Spock, who violates the Prime Directive to save an alien culture but then refuses to violate it to save himself….

743. Cervantes - May 22, 2014

Re: my previous # 714 post –

Although I described how I’d have loved to see the movie open with the crew discovering the Nu-‘Guardian’device during an exploration of the planet it’s located on…and then also described how the *main* storyline could involve *any* kind of Nu-situation/or Nu-adversary to be tackled, once the Nu-crew entered through it…I then completely forgot to mention how I’d have loved to see this kind of set-up resolved at the end of the movie (or 2-parter even) – so here’s how I’d have liked to have seen the conclusion work out… –

Once *whatever* Nu-situation/or Nu-adversary had been sorted out during the *main* adventure in the movie (perhaps with unforeseen consequences or deaths even…), the Nu-crew (or *most* of them anyway…) would finally emerge out of the portal back to the point in the Nu-universe where they originally discovered it…and then would face yet another dilemma…whether to try and obliterate the device altogether (but would disagree on what consequences that could have, if destroyed…and be worried about any lowly lifeforms on the planet could evolve to the point of using it too)…or to leave it alone, and just try and ensure that no other human or other lifeform would ever gain access to it’s ‘time’/’universe’-tampering capabilities.

The mystery of who the ancient, advanced race were that created it in the first place could be covered/discussed in some way…as well as *why* they wished to create it in the first place…

…but *whatever* the differing views of the Nu-crew who are speculating on the best way to deal with the device by the end of the movie…we’d eventually conclude things with a final scene that shows the device and it’s creator’s planet has been completely ringed with many heavily armed ‘Federation’ ships on constant guard…

Roll credits. (well a guy can wish, at the end of the day!)
__________________________________________________________

@ # 723 boborci –

Damn you for linking to that awesome ‘NewScientist’ site…as there’s so many amazing and mind-bending articles on there that I’m going to have to subscribe to it, to get all it’s info.! It should keep me going for days…

However, I’ve had time to have a look at this particular recent one, and have discovered that there’s a couple of interestingly conflicting theories when it comes to the ‘multi-verse’ possiblilities…

It’s spread over 2 pages and describes truly profound stuff for either theory, and it’s got an easier-to-understand graphic which comes about half-way down the 1st page – click on the ‘(see diagram)’ link which is highlighted in blue text. Great stuff! –

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22229692.600-quantum-twist-could-kill-off-the-multiverse.html?page=1#.U33Zp0ZOVlY

But *hatever* you and the writers come up with Bob, even if it’s a full-blown ‘Klingon war’ or a ‘Borg falling in love with a Tribble’ storyline…I’d just ask that you can try to squeeze *some* kind of mind-expanding ‘big idea’ theory discussion into the proceedings somewhere, if even briefly. There’s so many subjects on that site alone, that could be used to blow audience’s minds in a scene or two, if brought up. :)

744. Cervantes - May 22, 2014

That should have said *whatever* not *hatever*, by the way. There is no room for *hate* on this forum… ;)

745. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2014

@734. Cygnus-X1,
“The next time in Trek that someone is going on a mission somewhere on a ship, we’ll be thinking: Do they really need to the ship to be doing this?”

Well, after Khan transwarp beamed himself to Kronos, weren’t most people thinking: why doesn’t Kirk just transwarp beam himself with a group of security personnel to Kronos and apprehend Khan and transwarp beam him back? Oh right, because then they couldn’t address the story point and fire the torpedoes where Khan had hidden his people.

The biggest problem with Orci’s entanglement argument, is he’s selectively applying the technology inconsistently with the rest of universe he’s created.

If quantum entanglement can be said to work as Orci claims, and a device the size of a gym bag can accomplish the task for a single individual, then why use warp drives at all? Why waste any time traveling anywhere when you could simply build a quantum entanglement drive that instantaneously transports your ship and your entire crew wherever you want?

And that in a nutshell is what’s wrong with transwarp beaming as Orci is currently defending it. It’s not power, or distance, or theoretical application, it’s the IMPLICATION for how that technology will affect the things we accept are Star Trek. And that is true of most of the new plot contrivances Orci has introduced, whether based in any kind of science or not.

746. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#745. Curious Cadet – May 22, 2014

Not even that, why didn’t Marcus eliminate the middleman and his ship and just transwarp beam in his torpedoes at Kronos and let them drone strike Khan as many times as needed for him to not just be merely dead but the most sincerely kind of dead?

Which is why I say Marcus’ convoluted Rube Goldberg plans are evidence something drove him stark raving looney tunes mad. I’d sure like to know how he managed to escape his Starfleet mandated pysch-evals? And Khan for that matter too? I mean he was a member of Starfleet, yes?

747. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#745. Curious Cadet – May 22, 2014

And yeah, I know Marcus was setting Kirk up to start a Klingon/Fed War but he still could have sent him to the neutral zone to take the fall AFTER Marcus dispatched Khan via transwarped beamed Torpedoes. I mean what’s another Marcus lie in his grand scheme of things?

748. Bart - May 22, 2014

Speaking of Klingons, while I would very much like to see them in the next film, I do hope the main storyline isn’t a Federation/Klingon War.

I have high hopes that Kirk’s re-dedication to the Enterprise at the end of the last movie was actually there for a reason.

749. Admiral_Bumblebee - May 22, 2014

The transwarp beam is really strange…
Khan could have transwarp beamed into the conference room, planted a bomb, transwarp beamed out and detonated the bomb – then everyone would have been dead for sure.

Such elements should be better explained in a movie. Why is only Khan using this device? Why is he using it only once?
The same with the parallel universes in ST09. It never was explained properly. Mr. Orci explained it so that it was a common concept in quantum physics but how is everyone in the cinemas supposed to know that without explanation in the movie?

I really hope that such things will be much better explained in the next movie – ON SCREEN!

750. Who cares - May 22, 2014

Geez Cygnus, I have understood the Quantum Reality theory since I was 11 and it was used in the live action Superboy TV series (1988-92) in a great two parter (well great for the Salkind’s lowest budget Superman related project) called “Roads not Taken”.

The teory has been around for a LONG time, and has as much validity as another theory that cannot be proven or disproven by our current level of technology, namely the Theory of Relativity, which cannot be proven or disproven conclusively until we have the ability to accelerate a probe or craft to near lightspeed.

Seriously you keep going over and over the same tired complaints again and again despite the fact that they have been discussed ad nauseum, and on top of that you won’t even bother to include all of the information pertaining to those points. Take Red Matter for instance, it was established in TNG that the Romulans use artificial singularities (black holes) to power their ships. They have to make those somehow, we just got shown part of the process. Similarly for the Hobus disaster the first “Countdown” mini-series, which is the lead-in to ST09 makes it clear that the Hobus Supernova wavefront is moving at FTL speeds because it was caused by experiments with subspace weaponry by the Remans.

Come on man you sound like one of those NPR/AM talk radio conspiracy nuts who won’t even look at the easy to find common knowledge that disproves their ridiculous conspiracy theories.

751. I am not Herbert - May 22, 2014

745. Curious Cadet: “The biggest problem with Orci’s entanglement argument, is he’s selectively applying the technology (sic) inconsistently with the rest of universe he’s created.”

FULL AGREEMENT (it’s a convenient “explanation”…)(after-the-fact)

nu-trek is an inconsistent mess (at BEST!!) =P

752. Bart - May 22, 2014

I hope never to see transwarp beaming, ever ever ever again.

753. I am not Herbert - May 22, 2014

750. Who cares?: I DO.

easy to find common knowledge? …you don’t know WTF you are talking about… (propagandist)

754. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 22, 2014

723. boborci

So it’s not the same universe?

Hate to be a pain, but technically, doesn’t this mean Paramount has abandoned it’s main copyright protection for Star Trek, for years now, by not adhering to the specifics of what made Star Trek a brand name?

This different parallel universe idea is still so way off from what we should be enjoying onscreen as Star Trek its beginning to really bug me.

Help me, Spock! I want my original series back!!!

755. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

Guys, it is just a Sci-Fi movie, not a science documentary.

Bob should be focusing on writing a better Trek movie with a great plot, not a movie about Quantum Entanglement !!

756. I am not Herbert - May 22, 2014

yeah, it’s just a lazy plot device, like magic blood: magic super-transporter!!

(easy way of connecting post-its on the “big board”) LMFAO! =D

nu-trek compromises REAL Star Trek by implying that it’a all stupid fantasy… =(

757. I am not Herbert - May 22, 2014

…it’s not a science documentary, but it’s also not a self-deprecating farce! =P

758. I am not Herbert - May 22, 2014

More CIA documents confirm validity of leaked Monroe JFK UFO document

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-cia-documents-confirm-validity-of-leaked-monroe-jfk-ufo-document

759. I am not Herbert - May 22, 2014

Marilyn & JFK were killed because they were going to tell us the truth… =(

760. Bill Peters - May 22, 2014

:) 755. Ahmed I agree he should make the best Trek he can, hit a home run with trek’s 50th.

761. Marja - May 22, 2014

711 Curious, “[because of the duffel bag transwarp device] there’s no more need for Journey To Babel episodes when they go back to TV.” Nah. I think gathering diplomats along the way to meet one another, hash out preliminaries, and eventually arrive at a planet or central space station for negotiations, could still be done.

But, one could write a story in which all TW transporter devices are found, confiscated and destroyed by Starfleet. The only place the theory would reside would be in Scotty’s mind [and probably in some distant heavily secured Section 31 vault]. And — plot here — there could be a move by Scott and the Ennterprise crew to destroy it so Section 31 would no longer have it, while the agency is after Scotty to wipe it from his mind. Probably ranging into sci-fantasy here, but wth.
——————————————————————————————–
719 Ahmed, No, he got it from the Pew!-Pew! Poll of general audience teen guys who go to see action movies in the summer ;-)
——————————————————————————————–
740 Cygnus, First, please don’t invite someone to scroll back over 700+ posts to find your salient points in a discussion, as you did Keachick in your #739. At least give the post number so people can look in that vicinity. I’m very annoyed that TM doesn’t have a search function for posts on a thread and even more annoyed when people say, “read my previous posts.” Presumably you know where they are, or at least the vicinity, and can copy and paste your salient points. If not, reiterate your point so the rest of us can keep up. Thanks.
———————————————————————————————-
Second, in your #740, “… And then there’s the most un-Spock-like Spock Prime**, who violates the Prime Directive to save an alien culture but then refuses to violate it to save himself—that is, when he’s not crying and having his regular emotional freak-outs. It’s the plot-driven approach to the movies, rather than a character or theme-driven approach of the TOS movies.”

“** I’m sure you mean AU Spock. AUSpock refuses to violate [the Prime Directive] to save himself” b/c he was certain he could get in and out of the volcano without being seen by the populace. If he’d known he — or the advanced technology [Enterprise] that got him in there — would be revealed to the people, he would never have gone in the first place. So, yes, he was being sneaky, and violating the letter of law of the Directive, but TOS Kirk and Spock did not balk at doing that either.

And being that AU Spock has quite recently witnessed the death of almost all of his own race, I think his reasoning is valid, although based in emotion. I don’t for a moment imagine AU Kirk tried to dissuade him from the idea. Kirk may even have come up with it originally, leaving the “technical details” to Spock and Scott, because compassion is a huge part of young AU Kirk’s character. It’s not tempered yet by experience.

It is AU Spock, not Prime Spock “crying and [freaking out]” which, while it may not strike you as a character-driven approach to an entire movie, IS a character-driven approach to the AU character and the formulation of AU Spock’s adult personality. Recall he is around 28 y/o in these movies, not 35 or so as he is in TOS. Recall he has experienced more tragedy in the short time period elapsing over the first two movies than most people would experience in several lifetimes. Death of a parent, right in front of him, and the genocide of his race.

Now you will argue that these things happen for the sake of plot convenience and that may well be true, as it is true of many events in the BR movies, but it does not violate the character of PRIME Spock, who remains much the same as he has ever been, though he was deeply affected by the genocide of the AU Vulcans. AU Spock is AU Spock and does not, and will not, have an identical personality to Prime Spock, as his life has been changed by experiences Prime Spock never had in the Prime Universe.
———————————————————————————————
RE: Transporters … in order to function [even if the breakdown and reassembly of a person and their memories to a molecular level were possible], do they not require a transporter pad at each end? How, then, do people beam down to planets with no such technology? Because, Trek Science.

Okay. That has NO basis in reality. Not even a glimmer as much as the concept of Warped or Folded Space.
———————————————————————————————
750 WhoCares, “Come on man [Cygnus] you sound like one of those NPR/AM talk radio conspiracy nuts…”

NPR doesn’t broadcast nationwide on AM radio and now has only one phone-in broadcast, “The Diane Rehm Show,” which is very well monitored by its estimable host so listeners are spared the nutcase theories to which you refer. Includng NPR with the likes of many hate-filled broadcasts on AM radio is inaccurate.

Unfortunately, in the interest of “equal presentation of ‘left’ and ‘right'” — completely out of proportion with actual left- and middle- and right-wing real-life representation of such beliefs in the population, btw — NPR has begun including many more far right-wing “think tank” personalities than in previous years in discussions during its news broadcasts, without identifying them as such, and nor does it identify the middle-of-the road “think tank” representatives. They no longer give air time to true “left-wing” representatives, but for the rare occasion when we hear from Senator Bernie Sanders. The “left wing” is now purported to be made up of people like Obama and Clinton, whose politics can be equated with the moderate Republicans from the 1970s. My my, how politics have changed. And the media with them.
[NPR and media rant over]
[my Trek rants will never end]

762. Randall Williams - May 22, 2014

I found this interesting passage while skimming “Star Trek 3″ on IMDB:

“In an interview, screenwriter Roberto Orci stated that Star Trek 3 would be more original and wanted it to stay in the classic Trek world.”

If that is indeed what is going to transpire with the new writers all I can say
is “Bravo!” Basing Trek on previously existing original series scripts was
understandable but disappointing to me.

Hats off to Mister Orci and Company! Good Luck!

763. Oscar - May 22, 2014

762.
The whole thing is starting to feel like a Ponzi scheme: « Do not worry if it is not great. The next one will dazzle you»

but that is what you said last time.

So, sorry , he does Not deserve more chances. He will direct this pseudo star trek because is the cheapest solution and because of a lobbying campaing. But he is not a director. He is only a mediocre formula writer. He is toying with ST and with star trek fans.

If you have rotten ingredients, the final formula only can be a botched work.
Do you like mirages and rosewater dreaming? Ok.
Dream today, nightmare tomorrow.

764. Phil - May 22, 2014

There is actually a fairly easy explanation for the backpack transporter – the transporter isn’t in the backpack, all it is is a triangulation device, and the off-site transporter locks on to the device at point A and delivers it to point B. There is precedent in Trek canon for this:

– It’s established that transporters use tremendous amounts of energy.
– Site to site transportation exists.
– Single use technology exists
– Paper thin security in Starfleet makes access to this system easy.
– The existence of The Guardian probably utilizes similar technology, which may have been reverse engineered.

Knowing what we know about quantum physics now, it’s safe to assume there will be some advances made in the next couple hundred years. And as a plot device, it’s not an issue to accept that there are some limitations to the technology, such as energy usage.

765. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

Even “Gravity” got some of the science wrong but it was still a great movie.

http://www.popsci.com/article/technology/neil-degrasse-tysons-awesome-twitter-rant-about-science-errors-gravity

http://science.time.com/2013/10/01/what-gravity-gets-right-and-wrong-about-space/

766. Phil - May 22, 2014

@763. Breaking news, Oscar. He got the job. Whether or not you think he ‘deserves’ another chance, the studio disagrees with you.

Time to find something else to complain about.

767. Who cares - May 22, 2014

@I am not Herbert. I will not even wast my time arguing with you. You have long since proven you have lost all grip on reality.

768. NuFan - May 22, 2014

Wow, Oscar! Congratulations on your suddenly improved English!

I’m just glad the movie companies finally know about sockpuppeting.

769. Elias Javalis - May 22, 2014

Bob, 2 questions,

– Are you Guys of the Writing team trying to rid the Federation of its Pacifist Nature, (because of the Mega Fleet Marcus was developing?)

– Then Starfleet is no longer a peace-keeping Armada but a Combat Unit. How do you intend to preserve the Core directive Starfleet stands for?

Thank you!

770. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#764. Phil – May 22, 2014

The movies dialog precludes your explanation by clearly identifying the device:

SCOTTY: Captain!
I found this in the crashed jumpship, sir.
– This is how the bastard got away
.
– KIRK: What do you mean?

SCOTTY: It’s a portable
transwarp beaming device.

KIRK: Well, can you figure out
where he went?

SCOTTY: I already did, sir.
And you’re no gonna like it

771. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2014

@746. Disinvited,
“Which is why I say Marcus’ convoluted Rube Goldberg plans are evidence something drove him stark raving looney tunes mad.”

It’s clear evidence the writers didn’t read their own scripts before stamping “final” on them and turning them over for production prep. Marcus is a fictional character, he can only behave the way he’s written to behave.

772. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 22, 2014

Scotty’s best guess?

I never had a problem with the Trenswarp beaming device(s).

Like Phil, I considered that there was much more to that scene than we got to see on screen.

773. Phil - May 22, 2014

@770 No it, doesn’t….

Back in the first movie, Scotty didn’t have a ‘transwarp’ transporter, he had a regular, standard issue transporter that became a transwarp device when old Spock showed Scotty the equations that it allowed it to function as transwarp device. Unless Scotty was involved with the development of portable devices offscreen (which may/may not have happened) Scotty would not known about a portable device, let alone what one might have looked like.

So, lets assume that Starfleet does have a portable transporter. Then Scotty might have recognized it, as it’s programming would have been altered with the confiscated equations Scotty would have been complaining about later. So, his statement would have been true, to the extent that what he held in his hand was a transwarp device. That doesn’t preclude the existence of another component of the device that exists elsewhere off screen. It’s never explained how the device works, how many components it has, or any other specifications. By virtue of the fact that Scotty was able to triangulate a destination, that almost requires that there be some off screen component (somewhere) that allowed the transport to be completed…

I’m not necessarily defending it’s use, all I’m trying to point out is that it just can’t be dismissed out of hand on the basis of a dislike for the writer. Most Trek science is very fake, it’s the ability to craft a reasonable backstory behind it that make the suspension of disbelief possible.

774. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 22, 2014

760. Bill Peters

I say we are looking forward to thismovie SO MUCH, that probably ALL OF US HERE would pay for it in advance. Like – today!

You guys at Paramount are missing some profit making!

775. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

# 749. Admiral_Bumblebee – May 22, 2014

“Why is only Khan using this device? Why is he using it only once?” — Admiral_Bumblebee

Presumably he’s using it because it was an invention that came from Khan’s top secret Menlo Park style labs.

He’s using it only once because even though it’s portable, transporters in Star Trek have never been shown to be capable of including themselves in their transport process.

See my msg 730.

776. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2014

@761. Marja,
“Nah. I think gathering diplomats along the way to meet one another, hash out preliminaries, and eventually arrive at a planet or central space station for negotiations, could still be done.”

But in reality, why? What diplomat wants to pack and unpack and spend a week in the void of space in a cramped starship, when they could beam straight to the conference location on beautiful RIsa, and hob-knob with the open-minded locals after business?

___________
“But, one could write a story in which all TW transporter devices are found, confiscated and destroyed by Starfleet.”

Yes “ONE” could. Marja, I love you, but this is the crux of my complaint — Orci’s screenplays require the audience to do a lion’s share of the work to make sense out of his threadbare stories. Not so much with ST09, but STID really requires reading the comic books to get “the rest of the story” as Paul Harvey would say … and even then, there’s plenty of questions remaining … STID alone could spawn an entire industry of ancillary comics, movies, and novels just to explain the essential details which were glossed over in the movie.

777. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#773. Phil – May 22, 2014

You are confused about what the word “portable” means.

port·a·ble

adjective: portable

1. able to be easily carried or moved, especially because of being a lighter and smaller version than usual.

My wall-mounted tv doesn’t become “portable” just because a can walk around with its remote in my pocket and activate it from a variety of locations.

I understand how and why you are trying to reason this but it just doesn’t fit the engineer’s description of it. And what you are describing is better labelled a remotely activated transport.

778. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2014

@773. Phil,
“old Spock showed Scotty the equations that it allowed it to function as transwarp device”

The reason that was acceptable, whether you liked the implications of what it made possible, is because it was a full-fledged transporter that was modified — one could easily assume more power tied-in, or using the base’s targeting antenna, or any number of other things to make the use of this technology palatable. The gym bag transporter just flips the bird at any reasonable expectation a life-long Trek fan has, and introduces all kinds of future story traps due to its existence. Indeed, lest we forget Orci acknowledged this in the related criticisms that followed its first use in ST09 by telling us that they couldn’t use it again because Spock erased it. I called BS on that response then, and it seems I was right. Perhaps Orci didn’t flat out lie, but he certainly wasn’t forthright about it.

_____________
@775. Disinvited,
“transporters in Star Trek have never been shown to be capable of including themselves in their transport process.”

I believe the Emergency Transporter Picard uses in Nemesis TRANSPORTS ITSELF!!

779. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 22, 2014

Is’nt firing a transwarp beam across the galaxy aimed directly at the Klingon home-world a violation of the Organian Peace Treaty?

Seems like some kling’ on Kronos would have noticed that. (: 0

780. Phil - May 22, 2014

But it’s never been established that you physically have to be on a transporter device to be transported – otherwise you could beam down to a planet all day long, but never transport back. So, if all a regular transporter needs is two sets of coordinates, regular means of fixing those coordinates would be sufficient to communicate to the operator what needs to be done. Obviously, there’s more involved with a transwarp transport…particularly if it’s being initiated remotely, so, yeah, it’s not that much of a stretch for the backpack to be considered portable

Again, we can play semantics and parse the script word by word all day long, in the context of the movie it just wasn’t that much of a head scratcher. I can sit here and think up all sorts of transporter, emergency transporter, and portable transporter protocols all afternoon. For the purposes of the story, it was sufficient. Could a lot of this chatter been avoided with a little more exposition on Scotty’s part on how the bloody thing worked, yeah. Problem is, the minute new Trek gets sucked into the technobabble black hole, it suffers the same fate as old Trek. If I have to choose, I’d rather enjoy Trek that’s a little lighter on the fake explanations of fake science then see it become another mind numbingly dull in technobabble.

781. Phil - May 22, 2014

…mind numbingly dull EXERCISE in technobabble.

Sorry. An edit function would be nice.

782. Mike Barnett - May 22, 2014

Technobabble-heavy episodes of Berman-Trek are annoying, IMHO.

783. Marja - May 22, 2014

776 Curious,

DIPLOMATS ON RISA! “they could beam straight to the conference location on beautiful RIsa, and hob-knob with the open-minded locals after business”

There could be a mystery there too, except only the officers of the Enterprise would take part, not the ship … aww, darn, no “Journey to Babel 2″

“… the crux of my complaint — Orci’s screenplays require the audience to do a lion’s share of the work to make sense out of his threadbare stories.”

So, Orci will never accuse ME of being a “lazy viewer” LOL! Besides ….
THUS IS FANFIC BORN!
——————————————————————
All y’all fussing about the transwarp beaming device … Scotty had it in his hands. And it had the coordinates programmed in, which we viewers could see. Khan left it behind [illogical of him]. So I’m falling in with the idea that he had several “pads” stowed in various locations through the galaxy. How he did all that in a couple of months beggars even my imagination, what with him being so busy designing a huge ship that materializes overnight by today’s shipbuilding standards, and devising weapons, and all that. Superman indeed.
——————————————————————
As to the original transwarp beaming Kirk and Scotty did from Delta Vega, yes; Spock entered Prime Scotty’s equation into the Delta Vega shuttle’s transporter console. And AU Scotty “recognized” or instantly understood “his” transwarp beaming formula.
——————————————————————-
Yes, folks, many of you are right beyond my powers to respond, because I don’t read Science well … but what you say sounds for realz …

I took a nap today and woke up with the Arthur C. Clarke quote in my mind: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Maybe Bob is an extraterrestrial who’s learned how to write Hollywood Scripts That Sell, and is using his society’s technology in the scripts — and chuckling as he watches us try to explain their “magic”!

What an amusing idea ….
——————————————————————————————
Meanwhile here’s another quote from Sir Arthur …

…we cannot predict the new forces, powers, and discoveries that will be disclosed to us when we reach the other planets or can set up new laboratories in space. They are as much beyond our vision today as fire or electricity would be beyond the imagination of a fish.

That’s what I’m talking about!

784. Marja - May 22, 2014

Curious Cadet, I love you too!

785. Omni - May 22, 2014

Hopefully he does badly enough to end his career and NuTrek in one fell swoop.

786. Marja - May 22, 2014

785 Omni, “Don’t hold back, doctor, tell us how you really feel.”

Yeee-owch!

787. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2014

@780. Phil,
“Could a lot of this chatter been avoided with a little more exposition on Scotty’s part on how the bloody thing worked, yeah. Problem is, the minute new Trek gets sucked into the technobabble black hole, it suffers the same fate as old Trek.”

As far as I’m concerned they’ve already gone down the same rabbit hole TNG did, just avoiding the technobabble problem for the moment.

I totally agree with you, nothing in what Scotty says prevents the “portable transwarp beaming device” from being a remote control for a super-duper-mega-powered beaming station. And accepting that is what it is, certainly solves that problem (after a lot of work on the part of the audience). Nevertheless, understanding how it works changes NOTHING about whether the thing should even exist or not.

One of the things that drove me nuts with the TNG era was that there was nothing the transported could not do. They wrote themselves into so many corners with with stored pattern buffers, and reversing disease and old age, and resolving genetic issues, and on and on, that they had to come up with reasons why something they did before wouldn’t work in the exact same situation again, which is where the technobabble came in. And that’s exactly what Orci has done here — and not just with the transwarp beaming device.

There’s absolutely no difference from TNG with respect to what these easy solutions to the big problems do to the overall integrity of the story and the franchise. I thought those days were behind us.

788. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

=======================
Gareth Edwards And Gary Whitta Onboard For Star Wars Stand-Alone Film

In addition to the episodes of a new Star Wars trilogy, Lucasfilm and Disney have begun development on multiple stand-alone movies that will offer new stories beyond the core Saga. Gareth Edwards will direct the first stand-alone film, with a screenplay by Gary Whitta. The film is due out December 16, 2016.

Gareth Edwards blazed into the filmmaking forefront with his acclaimed work on Monsters, a film he wrote, directed and served on as cinematographer and visual effects artist. The skill and vision readily apparent in Monsters earned him the high-profile spot directing this year’s smash hit Godzilla.

http://starwars.com/news/gareth-edwards-and-gary-whitta-onboard-for-star-wars-stand-alone-film.html

789. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

“The film is due out December 16, 2016.”

I guess no winter release then for Star Trek 13.

790. B Kramer - May 22, 2014

“These Are the Voyages” S2 ‘Metamorhosis’ excerpt:

http://www.thesearethevoyagesbooks.com/metamorphosis.html

791. Marja - May 22, 2014

789 Ahmed, Here’s hoping Trek3 beats that release date by a couple of months. Opening, say, around September 8, 2016.

792. dmduncan - May 22, 2014

732. Cygnus-X1 – May 22, 2014

“And I have said many times at this site that I give you credit for discussing the QM/MWI as relating to your ST09 Alt Universe premise, though the topic of QM was extra-curricular to your movie and not discussed in your movie at all beyond a vague, unspecified reference to an ‘alternate reality.’ “

MWI/QM was so central to the plot — regardless of how much it was explained — that that story would not have had the same meaning or impact without it. The creation of an alternate younger universe just before Kirk is born, where Kirk loses his father, has a harder life, and yet still manages to make the choices that get him to almost the same place where he is in another universe, IS the movie, and it all depends on that particular SF element.

The fact that they were able to pull that story off without a lot of tech speak is one of those things that makes the film so good.

“Incidentally, as I have also said a few times at this site (once earlier in this thread, I think), of all the rationales for a multiverse, the MWI/QM is the least popular among top physicists as it lacks any direct evidence. If you had bothered with a science consultant for your $190 million Trek movie, he’d likely have suggested going with the theory of Cosmic Inflation as the basis for a multiverse.”

I’ve never before heard anyone suggest that those two theories were mutually exclusive. What source are you looking at that suggests MWI/QM does NOT occur in an inflationary universe?

793. dmduncan - May 22, 2014

Will watch Matador. El Rey is entertaining.

Should be on a loop in Man Caves everywhere.

794. Keachick (Rose) - May 22, 2014

#740 – Your thinking is muddled. You are dealing with two separate issues, not just one.

One issue is – the technology and alien substances referred to in both these Star Trek movies

The other issue is – how the story is told as in characters’ dialogue and behaviours.

“And it’s not just the duffel-bag transporter, magic blood and Red Matter.

It’s mistakes like a supernova threatening the entire galaxy. Like Spock’s magical space suit which keeps him safe inside a volcano while the much larger and presumably more technologically advanced Enterprise and shuttle pod can’t fly over the volcano to rescue Spock because of the heat. It’s the Enterprise parking underwater for reason.”

These are not mistakes. Vulcanologists already use similar suits so that they can get very close to where the volcanic action is. Is it so unplausible to think that development of these suits would not improve, thereby allowing Spock to do what he did in the opening STID scenes? The Enterprise could fly over the volcano and just get low enough in order to beam Spock back, despite interference. The shuttle craft was much closer to the site of eruption and it was the volcanic ash that caused the shuttle’s electronics to go phut, not the heat. That was the gaffe that the writers etc made there. Kayla Lacovino pointed that out in her article to this site soon after STID was released.

Having the Enterprise parked underwater was part of the backup plan. What’s more, it worked. If memory serves, the story told us that beaming anyone/anything in or out of the volcano, where the device needed to be detonated to prevent further eruption, was difficult, even impossible from orbit because of the ionic/radiation etc coming from the planet, probably due mostly to what the volcano was spewing out. Therefore, the vessels had to be as close as possible, without being detected by the resident population. Enterprise making like a fish was not only doable (for a period of time) but reasonable. I am not sure why they could not beam Spock back to the submerged Enterprise…not close enough? no line of “sight” perhaps? Bob Orci?

The thing is – a lot of people would poopoo the notion of a volcano being able to destroy a whole planet (as one knows it), yet most of those people seem not to know that they have such a volcano in their own country – ie Yellowstone, USA.

“It’s mistakes like a supernova threatening the entire galaxy.” I do not perceive this as necessarily a mistake. The genuine and real mistake is in the repeating of a proposition that a supernova could not possibly threaten an entire galaxy, which is the implication behind the above statement. I mentioned in a previous post that galaxies can vary in size and we have never been told just how big the galaxy is that Romulus inhabits, nor has there any indication of just how far away this world, other than not that close.

The comments to my post, in this regard, were humorous, but also a bit facetious and negating of my analysis. The humour I can deal with…:), but not the negation of the fact that I presented, ie galaxies vary in size (#496 and #498 in response to my post #492).

Who says that Kronos is 100 light years or that the Klingon Neutral Zone is 50 light years away from earth? Is that actually part of Star Trek canon? I do not recall such.

Saying a movie is “dumbed down” means, to me, that no deductive thinking is necessary on the part of an audience. This is how both BR movies have been described and yet, on the other hand, there are some people (possibly the same ones) who complain that not enough explanation/exposition is given about certain aspects shown in the film. For goodness sake, make up your minds.

795. CecilofRil - May 22, 2014

717. Son of Captain Garth

“#661: Cut and paste as in the script for STID, as well as ST09 both had elements from previous Treks. ST09 had another “eject the warp core” and “angry Romulan with a bigger ship” and another “scaly thing forcibly put into the body for interrogation”; STID had KhAAAAAAAAAAAAAn, major elements of TWOK literally lifted from it for STID, another “angry guy with a bigger ship,” section 31, etc. So, as a director, perhaps Orci will continue his “creativity by Xerox” approach and just steal visuals as well, like the lens flares (let’s hope not), visual elements from other franchises (like JJ’s two-film homage to the project he really wanted–Star Wars). Maybe the Enterprise will transform into a fighting robot, etc.”

I am sure someone has addressed this already, but felt the need (after reading this particular comment) to address it personally. Because I feel that this person doesn’t know what Trek movies really are…

Since when did Trek *not* have an idea ripped from earlier episodes or movies? Like, for instance, First Contact. Elements from Best of Both Worlds, that episode where the Enterprise is being cleaned by the barium laser-thingy, Picard becomes a badass in that episode (just like he did in FC), etc. Or the entire plot of Insurrection being a re-hash of the episode where Wesley becomes a Traveler and the Native Americans needed to be moved from the planet about to be annexed by the Cardassians. Which, incidentally, gave birth to the Maquis that played a part in DS9 and Voyager.

Also, let’s examine your “argument” about STID and compare it to ST09 and TWOK. Yes, ST09 had a villain in a big ship hell bent on revenge, but Marcus in ID wasn’t out for revenge. Neither was Kahn, because Kahn was just doing what comes naturally. Killing beings less than himself. Wasn’t that the point in Space Seed? Isn’t that what his original style was, so to speak? So, your “argument” about that isn’t really valid, because yes, there was a big ship, but they weren’t on a “revenge” mission. As for TWOK, I seem to remember that the Miranda class vessels weren’t larger than the Constitution class vessels. It seems that the Miranda class used the saucer of the Constitution class and just the nacelles on the bottom for propulsion. It seems that Constitution class vessels are a bit larger, because of the dedicated engineering secondary hull. Which is why the design of the Galaxy and (Ent-E) class of ships were of similar design. Ergo, you have a villain that takes the Reliant by force, not with any help from Starfleet officers (that were working with him by choice). He is bent on revenge, but he wanted the Genesis device for himself for AFTER he killed Kirk. Because he just wanted to kill Kirk then continue his mission. In 09, Nero just wants to create a galaxy free of the federation, ergo, he starts with Vulcan (to revenge himself upon Spock) and then wanted to destroy all planets in the Federation. So, he wasn’t ALL about revenge as much as mass genocide of the Federation, starting with Vulcan (because Spock Prime is a Vulcan Ambassador to Romulus when he “failed” them). So, I don’t see where you are getting some of your material.

As to your last part: What “xerox” are you talking about? They were both individual movies with interesting characters who are shades of the characters we as Trek fans grew up with. It’s like Casino Royale, we see M (Judi Dench) alongside a new Bond. Same here. But, I guess with you, you can’t see the characters as they interact with the old ones. I don’t get where you are seeing JJ wanting to do Star Wars since before 09 Star Wars VII wasn’t even in George Lucas’ mind, let alone in any form of production. It wasn’t until JJ was on the set of STID that he got the call to direct. So, wherever you are getting your “information” is false. And, why would the Enterprise change into a “giant, fighting robot?” What, do you think that boborci can’t tell the difference between Star Trek and Transformers, a franchise he and Kurtzman left after Revenge of the Fallen (to work on ST09)? I mean, I think you are just ranting to rant. Why don’t you calm down, watch the movies again, come up with some logical arguments and get on topic.

796. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

@794. CecilofRil

” And, why would the Enterprise change into a “giant, fighting robot?” What, do you think that boborci can’t tell the difference between Star Trek and Transformers, a franchise he and Kurtzman left after Revenge of the Fallen (to work on ST09)? ”

Perhaps he read the IGN interview with Bob last January where Bob made a joke about a Transformers/Star Trek crossover

===================

IGN: As a fan, do you have a fantasy crossover that can’t happen because of rights issues?

Orci: [Laughs] I’d love to see the Enterprise go to Cybertron. What? Paramount owns both. You mean in the Spider-Man universe?

IGN: Yeah…although, tell me about that! What would that look like?

Orci: Maybe the Enterprise would get the technology to transform itself into other things. The Enterprise becomes Voltron, how about that?

IGN: The world would melt down.

[Please note: this doesn't translate to print as well, but Orci - who wrote both Transformers and the Star Trek reboot - is joking about the Enterprise/Cybertron crossover.]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/16/the-amazing-spider-man-2-writer-on-sinister-six-oscorp-unifying-the-villainsa-possible-eddie-brock-venom-and-the-future-of-the-franchise

797. Bill Peters - May 22, 2014

774. TrekMadeMeWonder- nope they will do better to have it on the 50th it will allow people to be excited and see it.

Ok I know many of us who are fans would have loved to have had a Riker movie or a post TNG movie but because of something with Nemesis, Parmount went a new direction that has widened Trek and it likability ouyside the core audance.

798. CecilofRil - May 22, 2014

795. Ahmed

Since he (clearly) meant it as a joke, I don’t see where he (garth) is getting this argument from. But hey, if you feel that you have to take his words as gospel, then maybe we should let him turn the Big-E into Voltron and take the fight to the Decepticons. That might actually be pretty epic.

But, it still doesn’t explain most of his argument about “xeroxing” the elements from Star Trek, when many of the previous movies use elements from other Trek shows and movies. That is where I am getting that from.

799. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

=================================

‘And the Sky’s the Limit': The Writers of the ‘Star Trek: The Next Generation’ Series Finale Look Back, 20 Years Late

Twenty years ago, Star Trek: The Next Generation writers Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga faced the TV writer’s equivalent of the Kobayashi Maru (that’s a no-win scenario, for you non-Trekkers out there): Not only were they tasked with scripting the first TNG movie, 1994’s Star Trek: Generations, but they also had to craft a two-hour series finale that would put a bow on Star Trek: TNG’s seven-season TV run. And oh yeah, write both scripts at the same time.

The result: “All Good Things…,” the immensely satisfying and beloved TNG finale that aired May 23, 1994 — twenty years ago this week. When Yahoo TV reached out to Moore and Braga to speak about the finale, they both seemed surprised to learn it’s been twenty years since it first aired. And shockingly, neither has actually watched the episode in the two decades since. (“Maybe I will for the Blu-ray or something,” Moore laughed.)

But both graciously spoke to us at length about their memories of writing and filming the landmark episode, including how they landed the coveted assignment, the comedic subplot that didn’t make it into the final script, and why they think “All Good Things…” turned out so much better than Star Trek: Generations did.

https://tv.yahoo.com/blogs/tv-news/star-trek-the-next-generation-series-finale-all-good-things-20-years-later-ronald-d-moore-brannon-braga-223132059.html

800. Bill Peters - May 22, 2014

@BobOrci, is there a way you cpuld have Q do a cameo in the movie even if Kirk&crew don’t know he is Q?

just musing….

801. Bill Peters - May 22, 2014

or have Guninan in the film she would fit and Mrs Goldberg has expressed intrest.

802. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#794. CecilofRil – May 22, 2014

“…but Marcus in ID wasn’t out for revenge. Neither was Kahn…” — CecilofRil

When STID started, Khan is under the mistaken belief that Marcus has killed his entire “family” after discovering them hidden in the torpedoes.

His entire motivation from frame one until a momentary respite when Sulu threatens him with the torpedoes IS revenge. Which he resumes immediately after he believes Spock has killed them all when he detonated all of the torpedoes transferred to Vengeance.

Although, halfway into the respite he does revert to the form that you note before resuming the revenging.

I would say that it is a common theme between WoK and STiD that Khan seeks to avenge himself upon those he feels are responsible for the death and destruction of his and his own.

803. boborci - May 22, 2014

what are other good trek chat sites?

804. Ahmed - May 22, 2014

@ 803. boborci – May 22, 2014

“what are other good trek chat sites?”

Star Trek subreddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/

TrekCore
http://www.trekcore.com/

Trek BBS
http://www.trekbbs.com/

805. Phil - May 22, 2014

http://1701news.com/

806. Disinvited - May 22, 2014

#803. boborci – May 22, 2014

If you build it, they will come.

http://www.badrobot.com/startrek

807. Captain Slow - May 23, 2014

@ 803 boborci

You’re not leaving us are you?

808. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

#807. Captain Slow – May 23, 2014

He was asking about “chat”. That’s a specific type of DARPAnet function older than the World Wide Web. It’s a form of exchange using live typing akin to how the deaf use a telephone.

Its oldest implementation is IRC (Internet Relay Chat) which is where a lot of individual typists join a communal channel that allows them all to see what each other has typed at the same time. Quite similar to the modern Instant Messaging but without a pop up window when new messages are typed in. IRC uses a chime

So Bob may have a formal announcement of some kind to make that he’d rather have an informal Q&A with fans afterwards rather than a Press Conference with Entertainment “reporters”.

809. Keachick (Rose) - May 23, 2014

If Bob does have a formal announcement, I hope he will share it here as well, at the same time. Also, I do hope we are not annoying or boring him too much. That would be a shame…:(

810. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

#807. Captain Slow – May 23, 2014

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Memory_Alpha:Chat

“IRC (Internet Relay Chat) is a text-based chat medium. In short, it is the predecessor to instant messaging clients most people use today. Although somewhat antiquated, it is still in use and is a great alternative to proprietary and closed-off chat media. Memory Alpha has a registered channel on the FreeNode IRC network; for IRC-savvy users, simply join #memory-alpha on irc.freenode.net.

If you are unfamiliar with IRC, or are behind a firewall preventing you using it, visit http://webchat.freenode.net/. Enter a nickname of your choice and enter “#memory-alpha” in the “Channels:” text box. Then click “Connect” after solving the CAPTCHA.” — Memory Alpha

811. Oscar - May 23, 2014

December 16, 2016, STAR WARS spin off.
Directed by GARETH EDWARDS, Godzilla’s director.

So, this Star Wars spin off has a true director, A successful director.
Star Trek has …an Orci guy.

It «seems Abrams wants a real, true, good director to helm Star Wars’ spin off. But he does not want a real, true, good director to helm Star Trek.

812. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

745. Curious Cadet – May 22, 2014

It’s the IMPLICATION for how that technology will affect the things we accept are Star Trek. And that is true of most of the new plot contrivances Orci has introduced, whether based in any kind of science or not.

I agree. The implications for Trek of Orci’s increasingly fantastical conceits is one of the things I’ve been complaining about.

And I think that the issue of Implication goes hand-in-hand with the lack of care and thoughtfulness regarding science in the BR Trek movies that I’ve also been complaining about.

If Orci had bothered with a science consultant for those movies, the consultant would likely have offered advice regarding the Implications of proposed technological conceits, in addition to providing solid scientific bases for how such technology might be possible given certain reasonable provisions and assumptions.

813. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

749. Admiral_Bumblebee – May 22, 2014

The transwarp beam is really strange…

Khan could have transwarp beamed into the conference room, planted a bomb, transwarp beamed out and detonated the bomb – then everyone would have been dead for sure.

Such elements should be better explained in a movie. Why is only Khan using this device? Why is he using it only once?

That all depends on exactly how Orci envisaged the device working. He said it was generally based on quantum entanglement, and the only scheme for that that I know of is the one that I referenced, which would have required two chambers, each filled with one set of the pairs of entangled particles that Khan would have to have generated somehow. So, in order to duffel-bag-beam into Star Fleet HQ, Khan would need to have stored on of the particle chambers + plus the particle-processing device at the exact location that he wished to appear inside the building. Given the total lack of security inside HQ during Khan’s lazy Sunday afternoon attack, storing the rather voluminous chamber and device doesn’t seem like it would have been prohibitive. So, yeah…why didn’t he just do that? You raise another valid question, and there is zero reference or implication of any scientific basis for the duffel-bag device in the movie. So, we don’t even know how it was supposed to work, and obviously neither does Orci, so your question can’t really be answered.

814. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

750. Who cares – May 22, 2014

Well, hang on…You’ve misunderstood me.

I wasn’t really complaining about the MWI/QM. That was just a sort of extra comment. I’ve said several times, including twice now in this thread, that I give Orci credit for thinking to base the Alt Universe premise on the MWI/QM, even if that does happen to be the least popular and compelling of the multiverse models, and even if he didn’t explore or discuss that concept in the actual movie, which would have been great.

And I’m not just repeating the same things. I’ve been responding to very specific comments. The Romulan technology…that would be an interesting thing to explore. Zero mention of it in the movie.

If I can impress upon you but one, single point in all of this:

Since TOS, the thoughtfulness and care regarding Science in Trek has been one of its defining appeals. There’s a difference between a magic wand and a technological conceit based on solid science. Orci’s technological conceits in the Trek movies have been magic wands with a total lack of regard for any scientific basis. Go back and watch TOS and TNG especially to see how they treated technological conceits. They weren’t always 100%, and some were better than others, but the difference in approach is unmistakable. And it’s not just some BS complaint on my part. It’s the difference between science fiction and fantasy. And Trek has always been science fiction.

815. Captain Slow - May 23, 2014

@ 808 Disinvited

I don’t know. He said “what are other good trek chat sites?” which to me implies that he considers Trekmovie a good Trek chat site and that he’s asking about what others are good. I don’t know if he’s talking about an actual chat room or just a site where people can talk to each other. Either way, I’m hoping it doesn’t mean that he’s planning to go somewhere else.

816. Ralph Pinheiro - May 23, 2014

I think Orci should adopt Manny Coto strategy in Enterprise: make good use of STID’s ideas (Klingons, five years mission), leave to one side the Khan´s blood, transwarp, Vengeance, and make a different story, more linked to the original series.

817. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

761. Marja – May 22, 2014

740 Cygnus, First, please don’t invite someone to scroll back over 700+ posts to find your salient points in a discussion,

Well, she was missing my whole line of reasoning. I’ll try to organize it into a brief summation after I’ve gone through the rest of these posts that I haven’t read yet.

RE: Transporters … in order to function [even if the breakdown and reassembly of a person and their memories to a molecular level were possible], do they not require a transporter pad at each end? How, then, do people beam down to planets with no such technology? Because, Trek Science

Right, I addressed that example specifically.

The whole TOS transporter conceit is fantastical. But, it was necessary due to the limited budget of the show. We all know that, and so we all accept it.

But, as I said, the transporter is already so fantastical that writers shouldn’t be piling further and further conceits atop it! It’s already an AMAZING device, and since it was necessary for TOS, that genie is out of the bottle. Use it, but don’t abuse it.

I’ll try an summarize a bit here.

When considering a technological conceit, Trek writers should consider the following:

(1) Is this conceit necessary? If it isn’t, then don’t do it. There is already such an enormous WEALTH of technological conceits in Trek that unless you really need a certain conceit in order to tell your story, or unless you’ve got some other good reason for needing a certain conceit (like budgetary constraints), then don’t do it. Use you BRAIN and THINK of a way to tell your story without weakening the integrity and believability of the Trek universe. Be conservative with technological conceits. There are already enough of them to last for many decades’ worth of stories.

(2) Is there a compelling, thought-provoking or inspiring scientific basis for your tech conceit? No one’s going to ask you for the schematics of your device (well, almost no one), but you should be putting forth genuine effort at basing your tech conceit upon science to the highest degree practicable. Or at least enough to fool most of us. Don’t take advantage of our willingness to suspend our disbelief. That’s lazy writing.

(3) What are the Implications of your tech conceit upon the “world” that you are writing in? Some people in this thread have raised quite valid points about the duffel-bag transporter and its implications for not only the events in STID, but also for Trek in general. Is your conceit going to create problems going forward regarding the integrity and believability of the Trek universe? Will your tech conceit be injecting plot holes into Trek stories henceforth (like the duffel-bag transporter and magic blood)?

(4) Cost/Benefit Analysis. What are the benefits of your tech conceit in terms of necessity for telling a certain story or developing a certain theme? What are the costs of your conceit in terms of its effect upon the entire story and the Trek universe going forward? Is your conceit doing a service or a disservice to the Trek franchise? Will your conceit be a headache for future writers who have to think up ways around the plot holes that your conceit implies? As Curious Cadet mentioned: Why don’t entire ships use the duffel-bag transporter technology to instantly appear halfway across the galaxy in their ship? Or, why does anyone in the Federation have to die now that there is magic blood?

818. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

764. Phil – May 22, 2014

There is actually a fairly easy explanation for the backpack transporter – the transporter isn’t in the backpack, all it is is a triangulation device, and the off-site transporter locks on to the device at point A and delivers it to point B.

That’s an interesting idea, but it doesn’t apply to the duffel-bag device in STID. Firstly, it wouldn’t account for the problem of distance—100 light years from Earth to Kronos.

Secondly, Bob has offered quantum entanglement as the basis for the duffel-bag device. This mans the device is not simply a triangulator.

Obviously there was no evidence of any scientific basis for the device, so we are just speculating ex post facto.

The site-to-site transporter was invented in VOY, and I think that it was a very bad conceit. It’s got implication problems for all of Trek and it’s just a bridge too far in terms of piling conceit upon conceit. VOY was bad about its tech conceits. The show was lacking in creativity and ideas, so they reverted to the formula of deus ex machina to resolve the episode conflicts. They did Trek a disservice by introducing the site-to-site transporter.

819. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

Bob is probably getting bored with us :)

Or he is looking for a bigger audience; after all, there are just few people around here on trekmovie.

820. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

792. dmduncan – May 22, 2014

MWI/QM was so central to the plot — regardless of how much it was explained — that that story would not have had the same meaning or impact without it. The creation of an alternate younger universe just before Kirk is born, where Kirk loses his father, has a harder life, and yet still manages to make the choices that get him to almost the same place where he is in another universe, IS the movie, and it all depends on that particular SF element.

No, what you’re referencing is all attributable simply to the existence of a multiverse with infinitely many universes such that all possibilities that can happen do happen. There are several proposed ways to get to the infinite multiverse in physicis. MWI/QM is the least compelling way in that it lacks any direct evidence. Cosmic Inflation is a much more compelling and substantiated way to get to an infinite multiverse. You’re right that both MWI/QM and Cosmic Inflation (and the “Brane” collision model) are not necessarily mutually exclusive as far as we know, but if you’re going to pick one of those to base your multiverse on (as Orci did extracurricular to ST09), then Cosmic Inflation would be a better one to go with than MWI/QM. Again, it’s not a big point, more of an aside. But, given that Orci went with MWI/QM, I would have loved to see a bit of discussion about it in the movie, as it’s a topic that can blow your mind in no time flat.

The fact that they were able to pull that story off without a lot of tech speak is one of those things that makes the film so good.

I’m not advocating quantity of tech speak so much as quality of it. I’m sure you’ve noticed that a person thoroughly knowledgeable about a topic has the ability to explain it simply and succinctly, using relatively few words. ST09 and STID dispensed with scientific knowledge altogether—in the movies, at least.

821. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

#813. Cygnus-X1 – May 23, 2014

“Given the total lack of security inside HQ during Khan’s lazy Sunday afternoon attack, storing the rather voluminous chamber and device doesn’t seem like it would have been prohibitive. So, yeah…why didn’t he just do that? You raise another valid question, and there is zero reference or implication of any scientific basis for the duffel-bag device in the movie. So, we don’t even know how it was supposed to work, and obviously neither does Orci, so your question can’t really be answered.” — Cygnus-X1

Well, Khan’s schemes, indeed, seem to lack the elegance of simple efficiency. But then again, WoK established that Khan eschews that favoring schemes where his enemies get a dramatic reveal of exactly who it was that defeated them.

#815. Captain Slow – May 23, 2014

You have a point. Mine was born of the knowledge that the man seems quite prolific in availing himself of all sorts of opportunities to contribute on all sorts of Trek themed communication technology.

822. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

794. Keachick (Rose) – May 22, 2014

#740 – Your thinking is muddled. You are dealing with two separate issues, not just one.

I’m dealing with more than two. My thinking isn’t muddled, you’re just having a hard time following my general reasoning.

These are not mistakes.

Yes, they are. You’re simply wrong on this point. They are clearly errors.

That was the gaffe that the writers etc made there. Kayla Lacovino pointed that out in her article to this site soon after STID was released.

And that is what I was referring to. All of your going on about vulcanologists is totally irrelevant. Scotty says that the issue is “THE HEAT,” with regard to both the Enterprise and the shuttle. The implication therein is that Spock’s magical suit can withstand more heat than the Enterprise and the shuttle.

The genuine and real mistake is in the repeating of a proposition that a supernova could not possibly threaten an entire galaxy, which is the implication behind the above statement. I mentioned in a previous post that galaxies can vary in size and we have never been told just how big the galaxy is that Romulus inhabits, nor has there any indication of just how far away this world, other than not that close.

Rose, Romulus is in the Milky Way Galaxy. Everything in Star Trek is in the Milky Way Galaxy. The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across. It’s a relatively large galaxy. A supernova exploding in the Milky Way is like an electron jumping from one orbit to another in a Sodium atom somewhere on Earth as considered from Mars. Totally inconsequential.

Who says that Kronos is 100 light years or that the Klingon Neutral Zone is 50 light years away from earth? Is that actually part of Star Trek canon? I do not recall such.

Saying a movie is “dumbed down” means, to me, that no deductive thinking is necessary on the part of an audience. This is how both BR movies have been described and yet, on the other hand, there are some people (possibly the same ones) who complain that not enough explanation/exposition is given about certain aspects shown in the film. For goodness sake, make up your minds.

There’s nothing to make up. People say criticize the movies as “dumbed-down” because (1) action has largely replaced drama, dialogue and thematic development; and (2) science has been thrown out the window. There might be additional reasons for that particular criticism.

823. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

794. Keachick (Rose) – May 22, 2014

Who says that Kronos is 100 light years or that the Klingon Neutral Zone is 50 light years away from earth? Is that actually part of Star Trek canon? I do not recall such.

I think I got that from Memory Alpha. It’s a general estimate given 40 years of Trek and stories involving Kronos and the Klingons. In Star Trek, the Milky Way Galaxy is divided into 4 quadrants—Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta. Earth is in the Alpha Quadrant. Klingon is in the Beta Quadrant. DS9 was set next to a wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant. VOY was set in the Delta Quadrant.

The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across. That means it takes like 100,000 years to travel from one end to the other. Our galaxy has around 100-400 BILLION stars in it. That’s incomprehensibly large, which is why there’s no need to go outside of the Milky Way to another galaxy in Trek. Kronos is in the Beta Quadrant, but toward the side that borders with the Alpha Quadrant. I’ve seen a Trek map online that shows all of the planets and their locations, including Earth and Kronos. At any rate, Kronos is like 112 light years from Earth. Warp speed has varied throughout Trek (not counting the ridiculous depiction of space travel in STID), but maximum warp by the TNG scale is around 1000-2000 times the speed of light. That means that traveling 100 light years at maximum warp would take around .05 – 0.1 years, which is two weeks to a month. Traveling 50 light years at maximum warp would take one to two weeks. And this is generally in line with space travel in TOS and TNG. No one’s asking for precision, just not absurdity.

824. Cygnus-X1 - May 23, 2014

CORRECTION: That means it takes *LIGHT* 100,000 years to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other.

825. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

#817. Cygnus-X1 – May 23, 2014

“The site-to-site transporter was invented in VOY…” — Cygnus-X1

Unfortunately, that isn’t entirely accurate as the first occurrence of site-to-site transport was in the movie THE VOYAGE HOME when Scotty used the Bird of Prey’s transporter to beam everyone out of the hospital elevator and NOT to the transporter pads in the ship but to the park outside.

826. Captain Slow - May 23, 2014

I never actually thought that the transporter in the bag sent Khan all the way to Quo’nos (Kronos was a Greek god). In the Truth About Tribbles comic Scotty beamed a tribble across many light years all the way to Earth by using the subspace relay stations. I just assumed that Khan did the same thing, especially as there was a video posted a while back that showed a screen from Marcus’s office and there were several dots near the Klingon border that were labelled “Transwarp network”.

Also, even if it was possible to beam someone across the galaxy it wouldn’t eliminate starships. For one thing, how would you get back? And then in this time the transporters seem to be very unreliable. Spock couldn’t be beamed out of the volcano unless the Enterprise was right over him and it’s almost impossible to beam up a moving object. So it would be too impractical and dangerous to use as a replacement for ships.

827. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

As 2016 schedule is fills up like crazy, there is nothing official from Paramount yet!!!

828. Bill Peters - May 23, 2014

807. Captain Slow i think that bob is just asking where else he can talk to fans but he’ll stick around here too, just to get more talk time with fans everywhere.

829. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

# 825. Captain Slow – May 23, 2014

“And then in this time the transporters seem to be very unreliable. Spock couldn’t be beamed out of the volcano unless the Enterprise was right over him and it’s almost impossible to beam up a moving object. So it would be too impractical and dangerous to use as a replacement for ships.” — Captain Slow

The transporters using the old equations, yes. But in the 2009 movie Mr. Scott, himself, explains how extremely more accurate and reliable the the equations have to be to pull transwarp beaming off to a destination traveling at warp, and since they do, the unreliability doesn’t appear to be inherent to the device itself, but rather its software. I will give you that Mr. Scott’s wild ride through the plumbing indicates it is still is not entirely without some risk. I just contend Scott’s long-winded explanation of what it took to use it to get on a ship moving at high warp indicates that for destinations not at warp its equations are safer than their current standard ship to surface equations.

Your transwarp tranporter network does make all kinds of sense for what Phil was seeking to address, but if it really did appear on screen as you say, the implications are that transwarp beaming is being adopted in this version of Trek in a big way.

It will be fascinating to see which way they go with it. Will it be like the early ARPAnet and be around for 20 years till they make it publicly manageable?

830. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

#828. Disinvited – May 23, 2014

I said it was being “adopted” but I think I really meant “embraced”.

831. Disinvited - May 23, 2014

#825. Captain Slow – May 23, 2014

Let’s not give in to pedantry. It is “Kronos” on screen in screenings for the English reading deaf and those with other audio challenges. Not to mention in the captioning for other languages. So I take as an acceptable compromise “canon” Earth language transliteration, most especially for English.

For example, even though Beijing attempts to address perceived wrongs in Peking, neither quite does justice to what the people actually living there label their city.

832. Oscar - May 23, 2014

May, 2014 and ST, the anniversary film,
Has Not release date
Has not script
Has not title
Has not budget
But it has
No -director guy to direct it
and three writers,
Two of them are a couple of John Doe, no writing experience boys
And Roberto Orci,alias creative bankruptcy,

This is a mess.

Who are the guilties? The producers. Abrams and his people. The same people who made ST INTO LUDICROUSNESS.

A vast majority of true trekkers are angry because of this situation.
Star Trek kidnaped by a bunch of peolpe who despise STAR TREK and their minions, pseudo trekkers.

833. Chris Doohan - May 23, 2014

Okay, let me be the first to say it. OSCAR is a #$%^ A-hole.

Like the others, your anger is derived from extreme ignorance. I think Trek is in VERY capable hands.

There, I said it…. I feel better now.

834. Hugh Hoyland - May 23, 2014

@833 Chis Doohan

Hear, hear. Trek is alive and kicking on the big screen and hopefully one day on TV and not deader than a hammer like it was before Bad robot took over.

835. Scuba - May 23, 2014

@Chris Doohan, @Hugh Hoyland

PREACH!!!

836. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

Changing the subject…

Something I’ve always wondered. I bet I’m not alone here. Maybe you can all help me out here.

How do some poster manage to change their typeface to italic or bold?

In the past I’ve tried throwing code like [i] [/i] in there. No luck.

Thanks in advance!

837. ados - May 23, 2014

Oscar…that post proves you are an inverse Einstein

838. Oscar - May 23, 2014

833,
Sorry, pal, but ST2016 has not release date, has not script, has not budget, has not title, but , yes, it has a no-director to helm the film, two John Does writers and Orci, an mediocre formula writer…true or not true?
And who are the guilties? The tea party guys? NOPE. Obama and his boys, Nope. Yogi bear and its pal Boo Boo? Nope.
The producers. JJ Abrams, and Orci.
Abrams does not want an Orci guy to helm the star wars spin-off, but he thinks it is ok to helm STAR TREK…
Why?
Because he despises ST…and Orci says he is a huge fan of STAR TREK, but he prefers Spider-Man Project first, and ST is only his week end toy.
Trekkers must be critics , not a bunch of yes sir people and minions.

839. Keachick (Rose) - May 23, 2014

#833 – Chris Doohan – Good man. Yes, I totally agree.

Oscar has no idea about anything, yet insists on being a rude #$%^ A-hole.

BTW, I hope to see more of you in the next film. You go, Chris!

840. Keachick (Rose) - May 23, 2014

No, Oscar – It is more like mediocre armchair no-nothings who think it is OK to slander another person – “Why? Because he [Bob Orci] despises ST…”

Enough already!

841. Scuba - May 23, 2014

I like how Oscar just called @Chris Doohan “pal” with clearly no idea who he’s talking to. haha.

842. Phil - May 23, 2014

@833. Hey, you just said what a bunch of people are thinking.

Part of me wants to this this guy is some repressed fourteen year old living in a basement in Moscow somewhere, but he’s just creepy enough that if funky mail starts showing up at BR or Paramount, that a restraining order may be necessary.

843. Phil - May 23, 2014

@838. Actually, Oscar, if you had been paying attention…
Release date – late summer, early fall 2016
Script – Yep
Budget – Probably in the 150-170MM range
Title – not even relevant at this point
Writers – Yep
The guilties?? Only in the dark recesses of your mind, amigo.
Abrams – Numerous successful collaborations with BR, so JJ has his back

Actually, Trek needs fans, and if you had also been paying attention, several posters who support current efforts can hardly be called sycophants…oh, that’s a big word, lets try ass-kissers. There’s nothing wrong with calling a dud a dud – but give credit where it’s due as well.

Oh, and apparently your non-stop bitch-fest had no effect, the studio hired the guy THEY wanted, not who you wanted.

844. Silvereyes - May 23, 2014

833 Chris Doohan

It felt really good reading what you wrote. Thank you…

845. Keachick (Rose) - May 23, 2014

#822 – “I’m dealing with more than two. My thinking isn’t muddled, you’re just having a hard time following my general reasoning.”

There is little reasoning to follow. You keep repeating yourself over and over and you keep mixing up separate issues, which does the discussion a disservice and shows a lack of clarity.

[Keachick's comment] “That was the gaffe that the writers etc made there. Kayla Lacovino pointed that out in her article to this site soon after STID was released.”
Cygnus – “And that is what I was referring to. All of your going on about vulcanologists is totally irrelevant.”

Well, why didn’t you say so? I was the one who mentioned the gaffe made about “heat” being the cause of the shuttlecraft’s problems – not you. What I wrote about vulcanologists today is not totally irrelevant. The further down you go into a volcano, the greater the heat, so therefore it is quite plausible to imagine that suits capable of coping with inordinate amounts of heat while keeping their occupants safe would have been developed and/or the present ones improved upon. Heat was a problem for Spock, but not so much for the shuttle, but the heat would have not helped…

About these “conceits” you talk about – well, how about you give that a rest. The reality is that much of these technological developments only appear to be “conceits” because they have not come about yet (perhaps they never will) and so therefore they are obviously difficult to explain – we take it as given that certain technological developments, as first presented in Star Trek TOS, work in the Trek universe(s), (supposedly our own future) and will continually be developed and refined. It is also a given that discovery of other alien materials will occur and that a use for them could be found – for better and/or worse.

One conceit, or is it more in the nature of deceit, is you going on about Orci, no one else, being responsible for this, that and the next thing in the BR films – things you don’t like. It is a deception and lazy (also something naysayers love to describe these writers…) to write this. Roberto Orci was one of a team of writers, producers and director. Roberto Orci still is. Being director will give him more say in the final outcome of the film, but he is still part of a team!

JJ Abrams will also have a say – after all, it is his production company, Bad Robot, that has been contracted to make this major movie. He is still producer. Don’t think for a minute that he won’t be involved in some way or other. Bad Robot is JJ’s “bread and butter”…

846. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2014

@826. Captain Slow,
“I never actually thought that the transporter in the bag sent Khan all the way to Quo’nos”

Well there’s nothing in the film that backs that up. We’ve seen how transwarp beaming works — it got Kirk & Scotty directly from Delta Vega onto the Enterprise light years away with no intermediary relay (since Spock literally “invented” it for the first time in the universe on the spot using the equipment Scotty had on the base). In STID Scotty says he got there using transwarp beaming. Why use the same name as that previously demonstrated if it’s not the same technology? The comics aren’t cannon, and “Transwarp” network, if it’s actually in the final film, could mean anything from where a transwarp transporter is installed, to locations they regularly transwarp to and from with or without the use of transporters (transwarp has other uses). And while you could be absolutely correct, that this is what Orci intended, NOT ONLY is is NOT in the film, but ORCI has already CONFIRMED Khan beamed straight from Earth to Kronos, with his quantum entanglement explanation. If he had wanted to set the record straight he could have right there.

So let’s face it, we now live in universe where Section 31 has likely perfected Transwarp beaming (as possibly evidenced by the “Transwarp network” you point out), has been successfully used twice in as many movies, both under less than ideal conditions. Starfleet is not going to just trash that technology because it was invented by Marcus. Even if it’s top secret for others in the Federation, the formula resides in Scotty’s head, and the entire crew of the Enterprise knows about it. So from now on, whenever they need to get someone, or something across the galaxy, all they have to do is build a transwarp transporter, or come up with a reason they can’t if doing so would otherwise kill the story.

847. Marja - May 23, 2014

817 Cygnus, No one’s going to ask you for the schematics of your device (well, almost no one)

Whew, thank God! ;-)

Generally, I agree with your points here; in fact your writing of these points reminds me of a wonderful book by Peter Nicholls called, “The Science in Science Fiction,” regarding technology and its use in any world constructed by an author. Not only an excellent resource for viewers and readers, but for writers.

One of the basic premises of writing a science fiction story — called world-building, by Frank Herbert, I think — is ensuring that everything in that “world” functions logically in accordance with the rules of that world. And that consequences result from the use or misuse of the technology.

Overbuilding on scientific conceits is certainly not new in Star Trek — several people have already commented here about the transporters, and how by TNG there was “nothing they couldn’t do” …

As far back as Trek’s animated series [TAS] I remember an episode in which the problem was solved by putting people through the transporter to regain their original form [I think it was the episode in which everyone was turned into a baby, yikes]. And mirabile dictu, they were “cured”! Which led me to think [as a young teen], “If this works, why do they have a doctor?”

“Transwarp beaming” was — one hoped — a limited conceit invented to get Kirk and Scott o/b Enterprise in 2009. So Starfleet confiscated the equation [I'm not sure how they could do this, since Scott retains it in his noodle]. But it pops up again in STiD, probably because it’s employed by Section 31, and Khan uses it. I’m not sure why this happens. Is it because everything has to happen in one day in the NuVerse? Why couldn’t Khan have arranged off-planet transport and gone undercover to the place he needed to be?

From one use of this thing, yes, come too many other plot contrivances. I imagine that Bob and Alex had their reasons, primarily that whole thing with Klingons and 72 torpedos. My mind is not so good at multi-tasking, so I’m not great at keeping up with all the twists and turns.

And I’m not sure so many twists and turns are even necessary, because the great character writing Bob does could certainly entertain us [well, me, at least] … again, I think some of this twisty-turny triple-action plotting happens because of the younger audiences, and their being accustomed to “bells going off all around them.”

I sometimes picture wide-eyed kids saying, “I know! Why don’t we …” and then supplementing the initial dream statement with “because, _____ because_____, because_____! … yeah!” Of course this is the way fiction writers go about their business, but they have to slow down their process enough for readers/viewers to understand and RELATE to what they’re reading/seeing.

I think that may be some of the trouble we’re having here. NuTrek isn’t “slow” enough for me! [clearing throat] by which I mean, of course, it’s not analytical and philosophical enough, ahem.

For this viewer, one or two of the thru-plot action elements, plus the Enterprise crew finding out how to outsmart Khan/Harrison/I-wish-he-had-been-Garth, with the fine dialogue and character backgrounds established, would have done very nicely. But as I’ve said before, I’m older, and it’s not that I want “sedate” Trek, I just want Trek that’s not so ACTION!-y. I’m a believer in the build-up of suspense that comes out of actions founded in character. Yes, Bob, remember us old folk :-)

I also adore the Enterprise [and love the new model], and hate seeing her get the holy cr*p beat out of her every time. Just once I’d like to see that magnificent lady give as much as she gets, blast for blast. And the brilliant Kirk using his superior tactics [see C.S. Forrester's Horatio Hornblower or Patrick O'Brian's Jack Aubrey]!

Watching STiD the other night, after many months of discussion here, what I saw was wonderful characters being “put through their paces” and superior acting [and emotions evoked] crammed in between action set pieces, which “sell” Summer action movies. This is why I’m a strong advocate for Trek returning to TV, where they’ll have time and “space” to stretch an arc over 3 – 5 or even 10 episodes, with lots of good chances for character and dialogue.

Will we see an entire movie exploring all the results of this technology? I hope not, but I hope a logical way is found to put those genies back into the bottle.

[Don Pardo voice: This rant brought to you by "Doggie Downers"!]

848. Red Dead Ryan - May 23, 2014

Nah, I believe Oscar is living out of a trash can on some street somewhere. He has no friends, and no one likes him. Explains why he’s so “grouchy” all the time! :-)

*Oscar The Grouch* will never, ever say anything positive on this site. He lives to rip into nuTrek and and to tear down Bob Orci.

849. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@845. Keachick (Rose)

“Roberto Orci was one of a team of writers, producers and director. Roberto Orci still is. Being director will give him more say in the final outcome of the film, but he is still part of a team!”

No, he will have the final say in the coming movie because he is the writer, producer & the director.

850. Marja - May 23, 2014

846 Curious, This is interesting, because in Alan Dean Foster’s novelization, Khan has transport points he goes through on the way to Kronos. In other words, he doesn’t go from Earth to Kronos in one beaming. He beams to Point A, from A to B, and so on, ultimately arriving at Kronos. I think the novelizations are canon.

851. Marja - May 23, 2014

845 Rose, I’m using “conceit” for “conception/idea” … there is no insult intended to O&K. I think that’s the way Cygnus is using it too, but I’ll leave his interpretation to him.

852. Marja - May 23, 2014

836 Chris, Use the angle brackets vice [ ], and you’ve got it down. So for italics, angle bracket angle bracket, and to end the italic function put /i between the angle brackets.

853. TreMadeMeWonder - May 23, 2014

825. Disinvited

That’s because Scotty did not account for the rate of decent of the elevator and the crew actually ended up below the Klingon BOP.

A mistake that Chekov was able to account for in ST09. : 0

854. Keachick (Rose) - May 23, 2014

#849 – I think an explanation given was that H/K bunny hopped across to Kronos, using the transwarp beaming device.

I have seen bunny hopping and racing a cat at the same time, around my property, for real!

Oh, I love these cute *cheesy* moments!

And they could happen in the next Star Trek as well given the willingness and imagination of the writers/director…Just make yourselves (more) aware
of the subtle, “fragile” and delightful that life can also be and INCLUDE it!

Are you getting this, Bob Orci?

Marja – I do think that CygnusX1 is using the word “conceit” as you suggest. However, it comes across to me as meaning more than the obvious one…:(
Good man.

855. Keachick (Rose) - May 23, 2014

Marja – Ooops… if only there was an edit function.
I suspect that you are a good woman. It is also possible that Bob Orci could be a good man. You two people, obviously being the bright individuals that you are, should be able to decipher what I meant (#853)

856. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

851. Thanks Marja. I’ll give it a go.

[i] testing [/i]

857. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

[] testing [/i]

858. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

[ ] testing [ /i ]

859. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

[ ] testing [/i]

860. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

[ i ] testing [ /i ]

861. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@ 855. Chris Roberts – May 23, 2014

“[i] testing [/i]”

You need to put them inside a bracket.

See this page for HTML tags, you will find what you need under “Text Formatting”

http://www.simplehtmlguide.com/cheatsheet.php

862. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

Cheers, Ahmed. Looking at that link… wrong type of brackets perhaps?

testing

863. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

YES! That’s it! Brilliant. Thanks.

Sorry. You get used to one form of code elsewhere, and it’s just slightly different here.

864. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@862. Chris Roberts

No problem.

865. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

In case anybody needs to know…

These ones and within b or i. An additional / to end the section of text you need formatted differently.

Ta for your help, Marja & Ahmed.

866. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

These ones “”.

867. Chris Roberts - May 23, 2014

Okay so they keep going invisible. [ha!] But it’s the v keys pointing left or right. Shift plus comma or full stop.

868. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2014

@849. Marja,
“I think the novelizations are canon.”

I don’t think they are. Only what’s on the screen.

We discussed the novelization to some extent after the movie came out as it filled in many of the holes in the stoy, and indeed transporting through multiple stations to get to Kronos makes much more sense. I’m not even sure ADF didn’t extrapolate that himself based on his years of experience writing Trek, and attempting to attain a novel length page count from a film that is 80% action and 20% dialogue.

However, that is not what Orci is saying now. He’s saying it’s possible through quantum entanglement (which renders the illusion of distance irrelevant), to go from Earth to Kronos in one jump, just as Kirk and Scotty jumped directly from Delta Vega to the Enterprise. While that is not canon either, it comes directly from the “horses mouth” as to intent.

869. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@ 841. Scuba – May 23, 2014

“I like how Oscar just called @Chris Doohan “pal” with clearly no idea who he’s talking to. haha.”

Who Is Chris Doohan and Why Is He Saying Those Terrible Things About Oscar ? jk

PS: five strips of gold-pressed latinum for anyone that recognize the reference :-)

870. Scuba - May 23, 2014

@868 Ahmed

Who Is Harry Kellerman and Why Is He Saying Those Terrible Things About Me?

871. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@869. Scuba

“Who Is Harry Kellerman and Why Is He Saying Those Terrible Things About Me?”

DABO! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a WINNER
.
I gave you my precious five strips of gold-pressed latinum! (crying)

Guess it is my bad luck that you are familiar with Dustin Hoffman old movies :-)

872. Marja - May 23, 2014

866 Chris, I think you’ve got it now.

For review —

To begin italics
shift,comma = first angle bracket. Open end encloses i
shift,full stop = second angle bracket. Open end encloses i

shift,comma = first angle bracket. Open end encloses i
shift,full stop = second angle bracket. Open end encloses /i

The same thing works with the letter b to do bold type.

Took me a while to figure it out, so I thought a review would be helpful.

873. Marja - May 23, 2014

838 Oscar, There is a huge difference between CRITICS and CONDEMNERS.

One criticizes with an eye to improving the book, author’s future product, film, or music.

One condemns merely to talk about faults. To blame. To vent anger. That is what you are doing.

If you have valid criticisms, fine. But all we’ve heard from you is ranting against Orci, Abrams and Bad Robot for several weeks now.

Their product isn’t perfect. To some, it’s objectionable, but these people are still offering valid criticism: saying”the product you’ve shown us could be better,” and “here’s how the product can be improved.” Or, “I don’t understand the material as presented. Can someone help me understand it?”

What do you hope to do with your ad hominem attacks? Attacking Orci isn’t going to help anything, because he works for Bad Robot and Paramount, and from what you’ve said, there’s no hope of improving any product from these sources.

874. B Kramer - May 23, 2014

Saw “X-Men: Days of Future Past” – pretty interesting imho.

Guess who shows up from the TOS era (some spoilers). Hint, a legendary
starship Captain trying to solve his own time travel problems:

http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20140523__X-Men__Days_of_Future_Past___Trippy_mutant_time-travel.html

LLAP

875. dswynne - May 23, 2014

@846 (Curious Cadet): To paraphrase Spock in TWOK, “You lack 3-dimensional thinking”. One, Scotty could easily be under threat of persecution to never reveal the nature of the transwarp beaming. There is such a thing called “full disclosure agreements” that, especially on the Federal level, can get you prosecuted. Two, why would Section 31 allow transwarp beaming be made public, when you have an advantage over your local enemies? Three, in the novelization on STiD, it explicitly stated that Khan made preparations to utilize the transwarp beaming process, which involved a series of hops (not unlike a computer network) to a know destination. And, four, since the Enterprise is going into unknown space, there is no guarantee that transwarp beaming is possible or practical. We don’t know the range of a single beam (minus the relays), and that doesn’t prevent a would-be foe from killing you, if you lack the time to prepare. Beaming from orbit is easier than beaming between two star systems, and would be practically costly to beam from unknown space to the nearest Federation outpost. Besides, there are a number of things that could go wrong, including interference from a foreign body (alien or natural).

And quite frankly, the fact that you are still hung up on this transwarp beaming thing, you might as well turn in your sci-fi card, since it’s obvious you lack an imagination, or faith in the writers’ ability to tell a good story.

876. Marja - May 23, 2014

At the risk of raising more controversy, or of boring those who’ve already read this, I give you …

http://www.the-editing-room.com/star-trek-into-darkness.html

It’s a humorous take on what we’ve been chatting about for awhile. I should say bitingly funny.

Especially those transporters. Spotty little buggers.

877. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@875. Marja,

Thanks a lot for the link, I didn’t see this before.

My favorite parts so far :
===========================
CHRIS PINE

We’re still not allowed to use Simon’s magic beaming trick for some reason so I’m taking a shuttle down to the Klingon homeworld “Kronos”

TREKKIES

But that’s not how it’s spelled! This movie sux!

CHRIS PINE

Like anybody gives a $hit what you neckbeards think. I’m going down to the planet with Zachary and some redshirts. Oh and you too, Zoe.

ZOE SALDANA

Yes! I actually get to go on a mission and do something useful like all the other boys for a change!

CHRIS PINE

Not really. You’ll basically spend the whole trip whining about how much you think your boyfriend doesn’t love you, completely ignoring the fact Zachary’s an alien whose entire culture is based on suppressing emotion. I mean were you really that surprised?

ZOE SALDANA

Still, it beats sitting on my ass with a D cell battery jammed in my ear.

JOHN CHO

And I’ll give away our position to the Klingons by broadcasting a hollow threat to Benedict. Yay me!

…………………….

BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH

My real name is

(with mouth opened as wide as a human mouth can possibly open)

KHAN!!!

TREKKIES

Nooooooooo!!! He can’t be Khan! He’s white! And English! Instead of a Mexican guy with a thick accent trying to pass as a North Indian Sikh! This isn’t canon! This isn’t canon! THIS ISN’T CANOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!!

(head explodes)

CASUAL AUDIENCE

What the hell is a “Khan”? That’s not supposed to mean something, is it?
……………………

KARL URBAN

My God! All 72 torpedoes contain a member of Benedict’s murderous super human crew!

CHRIS PINE

Huh? Why wouldn’t Peter Weller just kill them instead of risking them escaping or us discovering them? And how are the torpedoes still even explosive? This makes no sense.

KARL URBAN

Damnit man! I’m an actor not a screenwriter!

CHRIS PINE

Apparently neither are the actual screenwriters.
=======================

LOL, this is so much fun.

878. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2014

@874. dswynne,
“Beaming from orbit is easier than beaming between two star systems, and would be practically costly to beam from unknown space to the nearest Federation outpost. Besides, there are a number of things that could go wrong, including interference from a foreign body (alien or natural).”

My hat’s off to you. So many made up scenarios in order to circumvent the continued use of transwarp beaming.

What a rich and fertile imagination you have. Hopefully the writers are just as inventive as you since they will have to likewise negate not just transwarp beaming, but ALL these technologies they’ve created that would otherwise give them easy solutions for just about any dilemma they create for their heroes.

______________
“it’s obvious you lack an imagination, or faith in the writers’ ability to tell a good story.”

There’s no faith to lack … I saw STID. I know they lack the ability to tell a good story.

But that has nothing to do with the problems of transwarp beaming, nor the myriad of other new technologies Orci introduced which require convoluted technobabble explanations like the lengthy one you had to come up with to circumvent further use. Rick Berman would be proud. I’m so glad we’ve entered a new era in Star Trek.

879. Jonboc - May 23, 2014

Is Oscar making noise again? Since his posts are always full of empty prattle, I just skip over them.

880. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

Two more :)

=============================

CHRIS and BENEDICT dive over to PETER’S SHIP in a redo of the SKYDIVING SCENE from the previous movie, except HORIZONTALLY.

ZACHARY QUINTO

In the meantime I’ll call up my older self for some future spoilers. What can you tell me about Benedict, Leonard?

LEONARD NIMOY

Why the hell are you wasting your time talking to me on Skype instead of calling Starfleet for backup or warning them about Peter Weller’s plan?

ZACHARY QUINTO

Uh…

LEONARD NIMOY

Are you going to do this EVERY time you get into trouble? I thought this was a reboot? Shouldn’t you be having new and different experiences that would render the future knowledge from my time-line completely useless?

ZACHARY QUINTO

Well…

LEONARD NIMOY

Go swallow a knife jackass.

(cashes check)

(leaves)
——————–
CHRIS goes inside the REACTOR ROOM and DROPKICKS the ship back to life because THAT’S HOW YOU REPAIR COMPLEX MACHINES.

ZACHARY QUINTO

Chris! You saved us! Now I understand the meaning of friendship, and all it took was for you to get fatally irradiated.

CHRIS PINE

Good for you. Errk!

(dies)

ZACHARY QUINTO

Cumberbaaaaaaaaaaatch!!!!!!!!

881. Marja - May 23, 2014

Ahmed,

I definitely don’t agree with everything in the satires, but between that “script,” “How It Should Have Ended,” “Honest Trailers” and Red Letter Media’s review by “Mr Plinkett,” I can laugh instead of feeling ticked off about some of the script problems. Mr Plinkett, in spite of the crudity, really makes me laugh, and appears to be a longtime Trek fan.

Also the first minute of this one [HISHE] is hilarious …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8

“Harrison”: “C’mon guys … Khannn. Ring any bells? Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan?”
McCoy: “What’s ‘Star Trek’?”
Kirk and Spock: [SHRUG]

882. Ahmed - May 23, 2014

@880. Marja

After watching STID in theater last year, I was really pissed off, and watching these videos only made me more angry. But nowadays, I just laugh.

In a way, I just accepted the fact that the new Star Trek movies are just summer action movies, you watch it once & then move on to the next movie. The key is to have low expectations when you go in to watch the new movie.

The Good news that there are plenty of other new Sci-Fi movies that are coming out in the next couple years, as well as Star Wars :)

883. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

#875 – I did enjoy reading the link you provided. Some of it repeated the wonky/silly interpretations that have come since the release of STID, but it was funny…:)

One thing that really amazes me is the fact that CP, ZQ, KU and the others can be here on earth doing other work etc in 2014 as well as being “out there”, when I had always believed that it was people named James T Kirk, Spock, Dr Leonard McCoy and others who were out there in that alt. universe using the superblood to revive dead tribbles etc.

One minute Chris Pine is sporting a well groomed greying beard and blue shirt and pants and the next minute he is clean shaven and wearing dark pants and gold tunic, hanging off something or kicking the warp drive thingy into alignment. Yep – gotta be some kind of quantum entanglement and Chris using plenty of Neutron Cream.

884. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

@Chris Pine – I would like to know what space travel is like; what getting laid by alien women is like; and how you make it back to earth 2014 and be driven around by a blonde woman. I know – space travel makes for lousy drivers – just see how prime Kirk drove in A Piece of the Action – very badly…:)

Also, what happened to all those tribbles that you had stashed in a car in a Californian desert? I hope you have been good to them…

Bob Orci – Do you know? This is a need to know moment!

885. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

825. Disinvited – May 23, 2014

Unfortunately, that isn’t entirely accurate as the first occurrence of site-to-site transport was in the movie THE VOYAGE HOME when Scotty used the Bird of Prey’s transporter to beam everyone out of the hospital elevator and NOT to the transporter pads in the ship but to the park outside.

OK, let me rephrase:

The PORTABLE site-to-site transporter was invented in VOY.

The issue that I’m calling attention to is the size and portability of the device as a further conceit piled atop the already fantastical TOS transporter. As I said previously, the TOS transporter already had the internal logic problem of re-integrating people and objects at locations (down on planets) where there was no second transporter present to receive the matter stream and do the job of re-integrating it. Adding portability to that causes the problem of Implications for Trek, it’s not necessary to tell Trek stories, and it’s just too much in terms of fantasy tech.

The transporter in that scene in STIV is working in the same way as it always worked in TOS. The only difference being that instead of the people being transported from the hospital to the ship and re-integrated there, the matter stream is sent to the park and re-integrated there (somehow) just as it was done in TOS when people would beam down to planets and re-integrate in a field somewhere.

886. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

845. Keachick (Rose) – May 23, 2014

There is little reasoning to follow. You keep repeating yourself over and over and you keep mixing up separate issues, which does the discussion a disservice and shows a lack of clarity.

[Keachick's comment] “That was the gaffe that the writers etc made there. Kayla Lacovino pointed that out in her article to this site soon after STID was released.”
Cygnus – “And that is what I was referring to. All of your going on about vulcanologists is totally irrelevant.”

Well, why didn’t you say so? I was the one who mentioned the gaffe made about “heat” being the cause of the shuttlecraft’s problems – not you.

I didn’t say anything about vulcanologists because it wasn’t relevant to my point. I thought it was obvious what my point was and what I was referring to. In STID, Scotty clearly states that the issue is “THE HEAT.”

That’s in the movie, Rose.

887. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

845. Keachick (Rose) – May 23, 2014

If you find my comments to have little reason or clarity, there’s not much that I can do about that. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

888. Captain Slow - May 24, 2014

I was on Trekcore earlier and in the comments there was a guy called MJ! Whether it was the same one I don’t know but it certainly seems possible.

889. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

This is why having actual co-ordinates, ie starting point and destination point is essential for any transporter technology to work. The destination co-ordinates are what get programmed which cause the person or object to rematerialize once the co-ordinates programmed in have been reached. This means that there has to be a way of determining just what those destination co-ordinates to a high degree of accuracy, which is why space ships are essential when it comes to exploring new areas of space where precise co-ordinates and various other conditions are not known. Distance has never been the main problem but it does have a bearing. Knowing the precise destination co-ordinates can be.

This is also why the hand held communicators, ones worn on the wrist or comm badges are so important, because these are constantly updating the co-ordinates as the person having them or wearing them moves about using various modes of transportation, ie on foot, in a vehicle, in another ship. The communicators, in their various forms, are also transporter devices. Inability to communicate with ship/other, I think, also means that transporter/teleportation is not possible either, due to either being out of range, interference or malfunction.

Obviously there is a point where they will be out of range distance wise, which is what the transwarp beaming technology attempts to overcome. It is dangerous though, because of the greater precision needed in pinpointing far off destination co-ordinates, which need to be known in advance. That’s why we still need explorer ships like Enterprise, among many other important and fun things.

The co-ordinates for the planet Kronos (and various parts) are known. Obvious H/K must have known exactly where he wanted to be on Kronos and so could be very precise when it came to programming the destination co-ordinates in his own personal portable transwarp beaming device and every destination co-ordinate between earth and kronos, if what he did was to bunny hop.

890. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

#885 – “In STID, Scotty clearly states that the issue is “THE HEAT.””

I never said that “heat” wasn’t the explanation given in the movie. I know that’s what it says. I knew that on 9 May 2013. It was I who mentioned the gaffe and why it was such. You only mention the explanation of “heat” being a mistake, obviously, and my reference to present day vulcanologists’ attire was irrelevant but did not say why.

The fact is that it is pretty damned hot in or near a volcano, so it would not be hard for people in general to accept the explanation given in the movie for why the shuttles electronics fried. However, in this case, the heat was not the biggest issue, which Kayla Lacovino pointed out through giving people information and which I reiterated in this thread. My reference to vulcanologists’ attire was not irrelevant, not when it came to Spock’s situation, being down inside a very hot volcano.

891. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

#812 – “…the lack of care and thoughtfulness regarding science in the BR Trek movies…”

One of the problems that the BR team have had to deal with in doing these new Star Trek movies are the inconsistencies inherent in much of TOS TV series, upon which these movies are based. TOS had many different writers and directors, which was good and bad for the series. The *science* was not always consistent. What is sneeringly referred to as “magic” and “fantastical” was the stock in trade for many a TOS episode. The very first episode to screen on US television was the Mantrap where the alien was a shapeshifter no less…

There was never any clarity given as to how far the various empires like the Klingon or Romulan ones were from the earth or the Federation. Vulcan, we were told, took perhaps two to three days to get to – from where exactly – eg in Amok Time, Kirk said that they get Spock to Vulcan in a couple of days, but that was NOT from earth. The Enterprise was invariably the “only ship in the quadrant”, but what quadrant, how big was this quadrant, which planets were part of this quadrant – these are answers that we rarely ever got told. The meaning of “quadrant” seem to vary…

The truth is that there seemed to be a lack of care and thoughtfulness shown by writers/producers when it came to making the original series. Overall what has been presented – science wise, more than anything, are interesting concepts like warp drive, transporters, replicators etc along with a certain vagueness and inconsistency associated with these ideas and how they work in practice.

Somehow the present writers have tried to make sense of this and update certain concepts to be more in line with what some scientists are theorizing as to what might be possible in the future and about what the real nature of life and the universe could be. The writers are not necessarily being lazy or conceited at all.

The demand for action action action has not necessarily made the present producer/writers’ job any easier in many ways, because it requires compression of dialogue and exposition. However, slowing the overall pace needs to happen. Relentless, especially if (a lot of) violence makes up much of the fast paced action, can be too overwhelming for many; it can be draining, even headache inducing. It is not KIND.

Be kinder to audiences. That may be the hardest but also the most worthwhile of any endeavour. Unfortunately, what effort is made will not be appreciated by many, but there are also many others who may well appreciate, and even love it. Be bold.

892. Oscar - May 24, 2014

My point
The main 2016 movies have release date

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/schedule

Superman v Batman (May,2016) is shooting right now.

But Star Trek 2016 has neither release date, nor script, nor title.

Why? Because Mr Abrams is very busy with his dear STAR Wars.
Because Orci is Very busy with amazing Spider-Man and because they both are very busy with the «aggressive lobbying campaing» pro Orci.
So, are they good star trek producers? No, they are not.
In fact, they are horrible producers.

893. Oscar - May 24, 2014

If you do not know why STID is a ludicrous film and the worst Star Trek film ever , you should read a bit more, for example this

STID DECONSTRUCTION in

http://www.io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

894. Stephan - May 24, 2014

892. Oscar – May 24, 2014

Funny. You sound like it is a scientific theorem, that STID is bad. You can say what you want and provide all the links of the world, you won’t change my opinion: I think it is one of the best Trek movies!

I think it is a mistake trying to convince everyone of your opinion. If you didn’t like it, fine. But you behaviour feels a little bit like a Jihad.

895. B Kramer - May 24, 2014

887 Captain S, possible. His account there starts around the same time he got banned here. As of now, he has 666 comments there, interesting coincidence. ;^)

896. B Kramer - May 24, 2014

887 Yep it is (from a thread there re same topic here):

13 days ago

MJ: No, Orci did, after that Orci-basher “Ahmed” poster over at Trekmovie.com baited him into a very public fight that got international coverage on the Internet. The gave that dude his 15 minutes of internet fame at an embarrassed Orci’s expense. Given all of the abuse some fans give this guy, I commend him for being so patient as long as he was before that incident…I doubt many of us could have done any better with bashers like that dude constantly telling him that his work sucks and is not appreciated by fans. That was shameful.

Ahmed: MJ, Greetings from “Orci-basher”, Ahmed!!! I see that you are back to your old games but this time on Trekcore! Tell me, how many aliases did you made up this time? 8 like you did on Trekmovie or it is too early to do that :-)

The K7,DiscoSpock, etc, etc etc. guy makes some lame apology to Ahmed. Moderator tells them to cool it and they kiss and make up.

897. Ahmed - May 24, 2014

@895. B Kramer

“The K7,DiscoSpock, etc, etc etc. guy makes some lame apology to Ahmed. Moderator tells them to cool it and they kiss and make up.”

LOL, for the record, we didn’t kiss :)

But yeah, it was MJ. We had that little exchange & then I just skipped over his other comments. He was basically continuing his crusade to defends Nu-Trek & Bob all against all enemies, foreign and domestic! He already had a run-in with couple guys over there!!

One of the posters asked him

“How long have you been engaged to Bob Orci?” :-)

898. B Kramer - May 24, 2014

Ahmed

Yeah I laughed when I read that.

How could you keep this exchange from us? :^)
I guess you didn’t want to bring old drama again.

The nerve of this guy. He’s calling you shameful when he made an absolute and utter shambles of this board for years: an absolute shameless hypocrite. Whenever I read his ramblings I am incredulous.
He lied so much that I can’t believe anything he says. This board has
become so much more stable since his exorcism. Anyways moving on.

Best

899. Ahmed - May 24, 2014

@897. B Kramer

“How could you keep this exchange from us? :^)
I guess you didn’t want to bring old drama again.”

That was my main reason, there was no need to talk about that nonsense again. Things are a lot better here without all the fake conflicts that plagued trekmovie in the past.

900. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2014

@884. Cygnus-X1,
“The issue that I’m calling attention to is the size and portability of the device as a further conceit piled atop the already fantastical TOS transporter.”

That’s really the only issue I have with Transwarp beaming.

People who say we lack imagination simply don’t get it.

It doesn’t take much imagination to come up with a device that can do ANYTHING.

It takes a lot of imagination to come up with a device that can perform limited functions and discover ingenious ways to apply that limited functionality to solve a particular problem.

It takes NO imagination to create a brand new device that easily solves the specific problem you’ve created.

Lack of imagination is not the problem here … I along with many other very creative Trek fans, after years of practice, can easily reconcile every vague technology Orci introduces to solve his convoluted plot problems, and then use that very same process to figure out how to prevent it from being used in the future. Wanna know how Khan got to Kronos? Blah, blah, blah, technobabble, blah, blah, blah, made up BS, BLAH. Wanna know why they can’t use it again in the next movie to solve the same problem? Rinse, repeat …

The transporter technology is perhaps the best example of this principal in action. Next to the Enterprise itself, it is the most associated technology with Star Trek — “Beam me up Scotty”. Essential to the ability to produce the series on a budget in the 1960s, TNG turned it into a panacea for all manner of problems they wrote themselves into. It was predictable. What happened to the days of Scotty’s admonishments in The Doomsday Machine: “A cranky transporter’s a mighty finicky piece of machinery to be gambling your life on, sir.” But, as you astutely point out, the transporter as envisioned in TOS was fantastical enough. Taking the TNG approach during what is supposed to be a decade earlier than even TOS took place, is a breach of trust with the fans, if nothing else.

And now Orci has continued the Berman/Braga tradition: ‘if you’re too lazy to work out an inventive solution, then just make some crap up — the implications for future use be damned’. And no one seems to care that after the outcry over transwap beaming’s first use in ST09, and Orci seemed to promise he wouldn’t use the technology again, stating Spock erased it; he just does it again. It makes him look disingenuous at best — or REALLY lazy. Whatever the excuse, it certainly gives us an idea of what to expect in the next film.

901. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

826. Captain Slow – May 23, 2014

I never actually thought that the transporter in the bag sent Khan all the way to Quo’nos (Kronos was a Greek god). In the Truth About Tribbles comic Scotty beamed a tribble across many light years all the way to Earth by using the subspace relay stations

Just to get an idea of the distances involved and the implications of the conceit to send transporter signals via subspace communications technology…

Up until the BR movies, transporting had a range limited roughly to the distance between a planet surface and some altitude of orbit above that planet. Kronos is about 100 light years from Earth. The number of normal relay stations required for that transport via traditional transporter technology would be calculated as follows:

Distance from Earth to Kronos: 100 light years (1,000,000,000,000 miles)

Traditional transporter range: 20,000 miles (roughly high orbit)

Number of transporter relays: 500,000,000.

It would take five hundred million relays to send a transporter signal from Earth to Kronos via traditional transporter technology, which as has been said, is already quite a fantastical conceit. Reminds me of that old SNL skit parodying the Total breakfast cereal commercials: It would take 500 bowls of Total to equal the fiber in one bowl of Super Colon Blow (and then we see a cereal-eating man lifted up into the air atop a mountain of cereal bowls).

Also, even if it was possible to beam someone across the galaxy it wouldn’t eliminate starships. For one thing, how would you get back? And then in this time the transporters seem to be very unreliable. Spock couldn’t be beamed out of the volcano unless the Enterprise was right over him and it’s almost impossible to beam up a moving object. So it would be too impractical and dangerous to use as a replacement for ships.

Well, Orci has already made the transporter fit inside a duffel bag. You’d simply take a spare one with you to send you back. Or, heck, why not just make the device even smaller, like the size of a wrist watch. Just throw a half dozen in your fanny pack for your jaunt around the galaxy.

902. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

899. Curious Cadet – May 24, 2014

It takes a lot of imagination to come up with a device that can perform limited functions and discover ingenious ways to apply that limited functionality to solve a particular problem.

And it also takes imagination, ingenuity and scientific knowledge to come up with a device that’s based on actual science. You need to know how nature works and what would be possible given certain, specific components which are not yet available but which could plausibly be available in the future. This is how TOS invented communicators which led to cell phone design and how TNG invented what is today called the iPad.

TNG did get a lot more tech-dependent than TOS, but for my money they were still smart about it enough of the time that it wasn’t too much of a problem. And the tech conceits were usually necessary premises for telling particular stories—for example, the exocomps in The Quality of Life (6×9). I just reference that as an obvious example of the conceit being necessary for that story to be told, i.e. the theme of emergent sentience and trying to define it.

VOY then started jumping the shark by relying too heavily on tech conceits to get the protagonists out of jeopardy. It was lazy writing, typical of that series.

I have a hard time understanding how some people aren’t getting this point, but maybe it would require taking the reliance upon fantastical tech conceits to its logical ends such that the conceits become so ridiculous that it’s clear to everyone how it can be a problem. As you said, it doesn’t take imagination to invent a device that’s not connected to the natural world or one which can do ANYTHING.

903. Oscar - May 24, 2014

893.Stephan
Because, it seems, you are a very dogmatic guy. Rational arguments are more important things than faith. I am a rational trekker, not a fan-atic. If a trek movie is full of idiocies is full of idiocies is full of idiocies…it is not the ragnarok…. ST 2009 and STID are not sacred books. A true trekker SHOULD have a critic, open mind.
Never mind, your faith, my arguments…

904. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2014

TESTING:

People, please do your post text formatting testing on another thread, NOT one that is about to hit 1000 where actual ideas are being exchanged.

905. Oscar - May 24, 2014

901. Cygnus.
You are a very smart and intelligent pal, but your language and curious cadet’ s are differents, you speak science, he speaks theology.

Nu trekers want to believe. No matter logic. They want to believe. If the sacred movie directed by the « savior of STAR TREK», says A, B, C, it is A,B,C,. End discussion.
They can argue, but their arguments are pure theological exegesis, not rational science.
This the kind of fans Orci likes.
A propos, I protest strongly against the insufferable and enterely dogmatic Nu Trek.

906. Red Dead Ryan - May 24, 2014

Damn….

907. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2014

@902. Cygnus-X1,
“TNG did get a lot more tech-dependent than TOS, but for my money they were still smart about it enough of the time that it wasn’t too much of a problem.”

There were a lot of far out conceits used in TNG, which didn’t seem particularly rooted in hard science. And the transporter in particular I’ve decided is like a drug. I was disappointed that Enterprise started beaming people as quickly as they did … again I think for many casual and hard core fans alike, it’s not Trek without the transporter. And by the third season, even ENT was starting to do fantastical things with that technology that had barely been approved for human transport.

I’m not saying I don’t prefer all technology used in Star Trek to be firmly rooted in at least known theoretical science, but at the end of the day, who among us is to say that something that seems particularly magical today won’t be clearly understood by science in 200 years?

Of much greater concern is that they use these “technological” solutions to their problems with some restraint. The more magical a solution appears by today’s standards, the less believable it will likely be. And the more the characters in the movie depend on unbelievable technology, the more unsatisfying the story is likely to be.

I would argue that the more enjoyable Trek episodes were the ones in which they were stripped of technology and had to figure out problems on their own without it, or by making use of the known limitations of it. City on the Edge of Forever, Arena, Shore Leave, TWOK, TVH, FC, etc.

And while I understand why Abrams would chose to skip over the dull explanations of how all the newly invented fantastical technology used in his Trek films works, he’s also all but walked away from the franchise. He doesn’t have to worry about how the shortcuts used in the films he directed will have to be circumvented in the next film so the audience doesn’t wonder why a crewman has to die when McCoy could just whip up some Khan-serum, or why Scotty can’t just beam across the galaxy to save the day with a portable transwarp transporter so the crew must instead face peril — so they can have a STORY. Indeed, it’s not the explanation of how the fantastical technology worked that required most of the elaborate technobabble in the TNG era, it was the explanation of why that technology wouldn’t work ‘this time’ that I recall took up most of the screen time.

908. Bill Peters - May 24, 2014

833. Chris Doohan – I will trust a man with you name and Stature in Trek over the Opinion of fans cause you have a more Direct Connection to Trek then most of us fans do. I hope you get in the next flim.

909. Ahmed - May 24, 2014

@ 909. Bill Peters – May 24, 2014

“833. Chris Doohan – I will trust a man with you name and Stature in Trek over the Opinion of fans cause you have a more Direct Connection to Trek then most of us fans do.”

Huh?

I’m sure that the people with “Direct Connection to Trek” are very happy to have such a loyal fan like you !!!

Just don’t jump off the bridge if the “Direct Connection to Trek” tells you to do that :-)

910. Ahmed - May 24, 2014

@ 906. Oscar – May 24, 2014

“A propos, I protest strongly against the insufferable and enterely dogmatic Nu Trek.”

Paramount hired Bob to write & direct the next Trek movie, you can’t change that fact. If you don’t trust Bob at all, then I suggest that you skip the next movie.

I didn’t like STID but I will go & see the 3rd movie with a much lower expectations.

911. Bill Peters - May 24, 2014

I trust him when he talks about Trek and BobOrci.

912. Phil - May 24, 2014

@902. People get your point, you hate the Bad Robot version of Trek. The problem is you have tried to rationalize your position by making a argument that scientific accuracy is the standard to which the moves should be judged. The problem is, you have to presume that no one has seen Treks 1-10, because if they had, they would know that bad science is abundant in Trek. I watched WOK this morning, still considered the gold standard o Trek movies, and it’s loaded with bad science and continuity errors. Further, you are not helping you cause because you are now admitting old Trek also has it’s share of bad science. You’ve stripped away your own intellectual rationalization, I’m afraid. All that’s left is personal preference, and that, by itself, is a valid point.

913. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

@ Ahmed re #896’s quote from MJ on another site – In this instance, MJ was right. You did bait Bob Orci and you did behave shamefully on that particular day.

However, there is one thing that you do have over MJ, and this is important – you are not a hypocritical sockpuppeting a-hole like MJ, who did use some of his aliases to be quite cruel, twisting unceremoniously and without conscience what I would write etc, at times. Often “their” target was me.

Yes, I was a victim but I have managed to survive it!

Although Matt Wright says that MJ’s sockpuppeting seemed to start with the release of STID, I believe he was doing this stuff well before that date.

914. Who cares - May 24, 2014

@Matt Wright or any other moderator.

This guy Oscar continues to make comments claiming someone else is not a “real” Trek fan. This was specifically declared to be an Instaban offense on this site by Anthony Pascale, if you guys care at all for the integrity of this site you need to uphold the rules Anthony laid down, and that doen’t mean just close the thread down, because the only one guilty is Oscar.

You guys banned MJ for sockpuppeting but you have so far refused to enforce this rule with Oscar, and for that matter with I am Not Herbert, who has comitted the same offense.

915. Marja, RULLY Ticked Off - May 24, 2014

888 bkramer, ahmed, anyone who’s on TrekCore as a user,

WTF, “the registrar is not accepting new members at this time”

Guess they don’t know or care that StarTrek.com shut down its boards last month. I left ‘em a pi*sy message in their Guest Book. Pis*y for me that is. Dinks.

Ah, the caring for fans. It almost breaks my heart with its sweetness.

THANK YOU TREKMOVIE FOR BEING AN OPEN FORUM.

916. Marja - May 24, 2014

888, Captain Slow, sorry. Not bkramer.
————————————————————————————————
886 Cygnus, Yes, and I think Sulu mentions that “the heat is frying our coils,” and Uhura says later that “the heat is frying [Spock's] comms.” Let’s hope it didn’t fry anything else of Spocks ;-)

Tho’ Rose does have a great point as spelled out by Karla Iacovino, modern vulcanologists have suits for exploring the cooler parts of volcanoes. I can imagine the improvement of that technology.

What is curious, and has been mentioned in our other threads, is that both the shuttle and the Enterprise are affected by volcanic heat, when both can enter a planet’s atmosphere with little or no deleterious effect. Somehow I doubt the volcanic heat exceeds the heat of atmospheric [re-]entry.

917. Marja - May 24, 2014

889 Rose, This is also why the hand held communicators, ones worn on the wrist or comm badges are so important, because these are constantly updating the co-ordinates as the person having them or wearing them moves about using various modes of transportation, ie on foot, in a vehicle, in another ship. The communicators, in their various forms, are also transporter devices. Inability to communicate with ship/other, I think, also means that transporter/teleportation is not possible either, due to either being out of range, interference or malfunction.

Well, to my knowledge they work with the transporters [as you say here] as location devices, but they are not transporters in their own right. A person missing hir communicator needs to have/find someone else with a communicator in order to beam up easily. Otherwise their unique biological signature must be located via the ship’s sensors, a tricky prospect if biology of native life and Enterprise crew are similar.

And heaven knows those transporters are tricky devils, if you look at their “behavior” in the Bad Robot movies, my goodness, I’d be as phobic as McCoy about them if I were in the AU! Can’t beam someone up but can beam them down, can snatch people from mid-air, can’t work through a volcano’s “wall” but can work in line-of-sight, &c.[I can see the thing about the volcano "wall"/magnetics because magnetic and ion "interference" always used to be a big issue -- as in the "Mirror" episode -- but on and off the garbage barges in San Fran, for heavens' sake?] In the old days, Scotty would be in the Transporter Room troubleshootin’ those puppies almost all the time if they showed “behavior” such as that in the BR movies!
——————————————————————————————–

Does anyone else wonder if BobOrci got tired of all our carping, sometimes quite reasonable carping? I hope he’s still checking the site, at any rate.

918. Marja - May 24, 2014

891 Rose,

The transporter has always been a sloppy problem, even in TOS; Scotty spent a hella lot of time fixing the thing. I agree that TOS was all over the place in terms of its own established “reality,” this is a point I’ve cited again and again only to hear that TOS’s science is sensible within its own universe. Well, yeah, I guess. Shapeshifters ["Man Trap"] and exile in a planet’s past ["All Our Yesterdays"] and boys with the power of destruction ["Charlie X"] and so on, introduced mind-bending concepts that we Trek fans now accept, with varying degrees of skepticism.

I would simply say that “there are more things in heaven and earth … than are dreamt of in [today's] philosophy. One hundred years ago, would anyone have believed a theory of Quantum Mechanics was even possible? How about the search for the Higgs boson? I assume that by Trek’s time [always remembering Trek is fictional] such science will be much better understood and perhaps even in everyday use.

Re: your The demand for action action action has not necessarily made the present producer/writers’ job any easier in many ways, because it requires compression of dialogue and exposition. However, slowing the overall pace needs to happen. Relentless, especially if (a lot of) violence makes up much of the fast paced action, can be too overwhelming for many; it can be draining, even headache inducing. It is not KIND..

I CANNOT AGREE MORE — especially with your point about the compression of dialogue and emotional moments. Everything “must” be rushed and therefore heightened to make any kind of emotional impact; e.g., it’s not “enough” to kill one billion Vulcans, we have to blow up the entire planet with a death toll six times that. [Same applies to Romulus, except for the means of planetary destruction.]

It’s not enough for Kirk to be close enough to death to make Spock think he’s dead, Kirk must actually die — only to be revived with Khan’s advanced blood products a few minutes later, movie time, lessening the emotional impact for many viewers. Now if they pursue this in the next movie [What effect does the extract of Khan's blood have on Kirk? Will he be indestructible? Will he win every fight? Will he become power-mad?] to explore philosophical questions, I could go with that. Problem is, Khan himself will probably return.

There are so many questions and interesting new technologies and changes in Starfleet that we must have Trek come to TV in its Bad Robot incarnation, in order to examine/alleviate the impacts of all these — and “explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations” &c.

919. Commodore Adams - May 24, 2014

Mr. Orci, a possible Z axis Enterprise maneuver? C’mon, it would be cool, just like the ocean rise. Have only seen it in All Good Things and possibly once in DS9 with the Defiant. Coordinates all over the place, yet ships alway plod along on the horizontal. Since the “faster than light, no left or right” rule was dismissed (USS Vengeance knocking the enterprise out of warp would have torn it apart) A vertical maneuver would be cool.

920. Ahmed - May 24, 2014

@ 916. Marja, RULLY Ticked Off – May 24, 2014

“888 bkramer, ahmed, anyone who’s on TrekCore as a user,
WTF, “the registrar is not accepting new members at this time””

I had the same reaction couple months ago when I saw that message but then one of the users directed me to this message from Trekcore admins:

===========
Due to an influx of spam registrations, we have had to close our registration system until we can determine how to prevent the SPAM registrations… If you want to join our community, simply send

webmaster[AT]trekcore.[DOT] a message with:

Username (What you will log in as):
Display Name (What will be displayed to other users, can be same as username):
Email Address:

We’ll set up your account manually and create a temporary password – Sorry for the inconvenience!

http://theomegasector.com/index.php?/topic/19328-new-registrations/
===========

This is only to participate in their forums! If you want to comment on their articles, then you will need to sign in using either your gmail, Facebook, twitter or Disqus accounts !!!

I didn’t feel like using any of my personal accounts on a public forum, so I just created a new Disqus account

http://disqus.com/profile/signup/?next=http%3A//disqus.com/

Trekmovie by far is the best Trek site where you don’t go through all that stuff just to share your views.

921. Ahmed - May 24, 2014

oops, that should be

webmaster[AT]trekcore[DOT]com

922. B Kramer - May 24, 2014

Some more random mj comments at Trekcore.

On Introduction to Trekcore:

I hope to bring my uncannily correct predictions and deduction to this site over the next two years concerning Trek 3. I predicted Khan as the villain, based on some very minor clues, over 2 years in advance of STID.

Re Bob Orci directing: (He congrats then states:)

I will say this. If he goes on to become a major Hollywood director in the years to come, all of the “archived posts” of his ultra-radical political commentary and just dumb-ass conspiracy theory ideas will come back to bite him in the ass at some point down the road.

Re Nasa awards Shatner Public Service Metal:

Sheesh, that picture is a bit unflattering. I hope that stage they were standing on was reinforced. ;-)
Seriously, congrats to the Shat! (Atleast he congratulated him for once. Posters there defended Bill re his age & appearance).

http://trekcore.com/blog/2014/05/nasa-awards-william-shatner-public-service-medal/

923. Keachick (Rose) - May 24, 2014

#918 – Marja “It’s not enough for Kirk to be close enough to death to make Spock think he’s dead, Kirk must actually die”

Yes, I agree that would have been a better way to do that scene. Spock could still do his “khaaaaan” scream – rather he didn’t though, only to find that Kirk hadn’t died in front of him but was so near death and that Dr McCoy really had his work cut out for him. The discovery that Khan’s “superblood” have incredible regenerative powers would have made Dr McCoy more determined to see if this blood, transfused into Kirk, could bring him back from the brink of death. Whichever way done, it was a missed opportunity to see Bones (and Karl Urban) do his curmudgeonly country doctoring stuff in order to save the life of his near-death friend and captain. Far better than watching Khan and Spock kick and punch each other on floating barges – like we’ve not seen enough kicking and punching already in the film. Just boring, monotonous and horrible!

It is not so much that a planet gets imploded with 6 billion plus inhabitants. It is just that there was little time given for anyone (characters and audience) to actually digest just what had happened to Vulcan. Too much compression of dialogue and emotion, like no real time to show shocked silence, disbelief, tears welling up – all normal expressions. This was when time dilation should have occurred, because that is often how it feels when something really bad happens, like hearing about the death of someone close. It can seem a little surreal and everything is in a sort of “slow motion”. This is what should have been illustrated far better than it was.

What little we got briefly took place in a lift between Uhura and Spock, and then a lot of people bitched about that, claiming that Uhura was trying to make out with Spock. Holy moly. Truly, what the f*ck is wrong so many people today?

I think this is why these films have been likened to other genre movies where lots of over the top destruction occurs and the characters are just well -meh about it all, (as if to say, well, it’s only a movie…) That is NOT what the characters should be intimating at. That’s more like the role of audiences, the film makers and actors who play those characters might take on.

924. Disinvited - May 24, 2014

# 891. Keachick (Rose) – May 24, 2014

“The very first episode to screen on US television was the Mantrap where the alien was a shapeshifter no less” — Keachick (Rose)

The saltvampire was NOT a shapeshifter. However, like the fictional vampire, it did have the ability to cloud human minds so that it could appear as whatever they expected the research scientist’s wife to look like which is why it looked different to all 3 landing party members.

# 917. Marja – May 24, 2014

“I can see the thing about the volcano “wall”/magnetics because magnetic and ion “interference” always used to be a big issue — as in the “Mirror” episode …” — Marja

But here’s the thing: Materials that have their own magnetic field actually lose their magnetism at high temperatures. It literally erases it which allows it to be imprinted with external magnetic fields (such as the one being generated by the electrical currents in the earth’s core rotating dynamo) as the magma cools.

To be clear, what I am saying is the magnetized walls of a dormant volcano loses all its magnetism when it becomes active generating heat so intense it melts the coils of a shuttle.

So there couldn’t have been any significant magnetic interference.

925. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

907. Curious Cadet – May 24, 2014

Of much greater concern is that they use these “technological” solutions to their problems with some restraint. The more magical a solution appears by today’s standards, the less believable it will likely be. And the more the characters in the movie depend on unbelievable technology, the more unsatisfying the story is likely to be.

Yes, exactly.

Regarding tech conceits in TNG, I’d have to go through and look for ones that might have wandered off the scientific reservation. Overall they were conscientious and smart enough about it, and the payoffs were worth the costs in terms of believability enough of the time that I was happy. Conceits like the omnipotent Q I could have done without.VOY was when they really started jumping the shark. And BR Trek has just made farce out of it.

926. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

914. Who cares – May 24, 24, 2014

This guy Oscar continues to make comments claiming someone else is not a “real” Trek fan.

Someone was doing that to me last week, and I agree that them be fightin’ words at a Trek fan site. But, I haven’t seen Oscar disparage anyone as “not a real Trek fan.”

905. Oscar – May 24, 2014

Oscar, I certainly can appreciate your displeasure with the BR Trek movies, but maybe consider trying to be a bit more constructive in your phrasing and less personally disparaging of Orci, Abrams or anyone else, especially regarding issues like the release date of the next movie. I understand that you don’t like what they’ve done with Trek, and I don’t like it either, but consider commenting about the specific things that you don’t like and how you think they could be made better. Then people can actually respond to your specific points about Trek.

927. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

912. Phil – May 24, 2014

No.

You’re misrepresenting my position. I have never made the issue as black and white as being solely about scientific accuracy. Scientific accuracy is one issue—pertaining to facts of nature such as what supernovas do—but it’s by no means the only issue. There’s a collection of issues, all related to the science and tech conceits in the BR Trek movies. I’ve also not lumped the TOS movies in with the TNG movies. The TOS movies were much better.

Regarding TWOK, we’ve discussed its tech conceits in the past here, but go ahead and name some that you find problematic—besides the Genesis device, which was obviously a very fantastical conceit, but one that earned its keep by giving rise to the very theme of scientific hubris and overconfident scientists creating things that shouldn’t be created, not to mention driving the entire story—Khan lusting after the object of ultimate power and so forth. The Genesis device (and the planet that it gives rise to) also served as the centerpiece for the story’s death/rebirth motif vis-a-vis Spock but also vis-a-vis Kirk dealing with getting old.

928. Son of Captain Garth - May 24, 2014

Cecil: There’s a difference between playing in the established playground of Trek vs. being so creatively bankrupt that you lift literal dialogue and plot elements from previous films. The last THREE FILMS IN A ROW have had the same “angry guy with a bigger ship” (Nemesis, ST09, STID); STID actually lifted characters, dialogue and plot points from TWOK, yet did it so clumsily as to be insulting. All of the ripping off is just window dressing for lazy writing; it’s not an homage, it’s not quite a remake, it’s just a contemptuous attitude towards the franchise and fans and if you adjust ST09 and STID for ticket price inflation, STID falls even shorter of ST09 than the, what, 40 million less it made than its predecessor. So, in shortchanging the die-hard fans, they haven’t brought in new ones, either. Yet the writer and producer of this failure are given yet another shot at it. Nice job, Paramount. I hear Warner Brothers is going to give Joel Schumacher another shot at Batman, too. Wait . . . they’re not? I wonder why . . . .

929. Cygnus-X1 - May 24, 2014

Khan in STID was an exemplar of BR’s comic-book approach to Trek.

The Khan character of TOS was already stronger and smarter than normal people, and in that regard he was unusual enough and his unusual attributes served a well-defined purpose in the original TOS Space Seed as well as in TWOK.

But, Orci and the other writers couldn’t just use the Khan character as he was in canon. Like everything else, they had to turn Khan into a comic-book villain — INDESTRUCTO! Punch him in the face 50 times and he doesn’t even blush! Chop off his head and he grows another! Try to stab him through the heart, and his heart repels the blade…and then it punches you in the face!

Actually, BR’s Khan is more like Medusa in Clash of the Titans, but instead his blood becoming scorpions it cures death! Just carry around Khan’s blood, much as Perseus carries Medusa’s head in a bag, for instant supernatural effects!

930. Marja - May 24, 2014

901 Cygnus, Here’s some puerile humor

Khan used Super Colon Blow to get to Kronos! “Yes, you just pour a bowl and BLOW!”
—————————————————————————————————
923 Rose, [Kirk's death and "instant revival"] was a missed opportunity to see Bones (and Karl Urban) do his curmudgeonly country doctoring stuff in order to save the life of his near-death friend and captain. Far better than watching Khan and Spock kick and punch each other on floating barges…

I was okay with Spock trying to get Khan to arrest him, the running chase and the jump up to the barges was exciting. Having this intercut with McCoy working in the lab and seeing to Kirk’s life functions and cussing as he tries to figure out how to save Kirk’s life, then back to the action down on Earth.

The brutality of the Khan and Spock fight was over the top. I would far rather have seen a few body blows/blocks and a neck-pinch from Spock that was semi-successful, then Khan grasping his head [threat of imminent death] — then Spock hits the psi-points and disables Khan! Thus the psi-points are used for Spock to understand death [his contact with Pike], then to nearly inflict it with a taboo means of mind invasion and harm [Khan threatening Spock's life]. Then there could be a scene where Spock reflects on this with Kirk, or McCoy, or Uhura, or all three … how we sometimes become what we despise in order to save what is precious.

It is not so much that a planet gets imploded with 6 billion plus inhabitants. It is just that there was little time given for anyone … to actually digest just what had happened to Vulcan. Too much compression of dialogue and emotion … no real time to show shocked silence, disbelief, tears welling up … This was when time dilation should have occurred, because that is often how it feels when something really bad happens … It can seem a little surreal and everything is in a sort of “slow motion”. This … should have been illustrated far better than it was.

Agreed. Kirk and Uhura as two emotional focal points should have been the ones showing the shock, possibly tearing up; McCoy, angry disbelief, Spock — well, I recall in TOS’s “Immunity Syndrome” Spock nearly passed out from the shock of 400 minds screaming … I have no idea why he didn’t hit the floor in the AUverse. He should have woken up in the Medbay, advising McCoy to leave him alone, “I’m fine Doctor.”

The thing is, Kirk and Sulu were on-planet, having disabled the drill platform, and were falling to be beamed up by Chekov. They meet Spock in the transporter room and Kirk thinks Spock is crazy to go down there. So the only character we are “with” as the planet is actually shown imploding is Prime Spock, whose reaction is sorrowful and dignified. AUSpock has seen his mother fall to her death and materializes, absolutely stunned with grief. It is powerful. Chekov’s face … sorrowful and stunned he could not succeed in beaming Amanda up when he had just got Kirk and Sulu safely to the ship. I still would have liked to see more of our senior crew’s reactions.

What little we got briefly took place in a lift between Uhura and Spock, and then a lot of people bitched about that, claiming that Uhura was trying to make out with Spock. Heh. Well, some of them wanted it to be Kirk hugging and kissing and comforting Spock, but nevermind. Others seem to think there is absolutely no room for kissing in an action movie [phooey!]. Uhura really helped the audience to understand the sorrow she felt for her loved one, and helped us see that Spock is trying to function with his grief, and we see that she and Spock depend on one another. Quinto’s tiny emotional cues in that scene are marvelous, and Saldana not only looks beautiful in tears [a rare attribute for most women], her whole aspect is one of soothing, unconditional love.
—————————————————————————————————
924 Disinvited, Well I’ll be! I learned something … I never knew that about magnetic fields and heat.

931. Marja - May 24, 2014

Re my 931: Sorry, the paragraph was MEANT to read

I was okay with Spock trying to get Khan to arrest him, the running chase and the jump up to the barges was exciting.I wish they had intercut this with McCoy working in the lab and seeing to Kirk’s life functions and cussing as he tries to figure out how to save Kirk’s life, then back to the action down on Earth.
—————————————————————————————–
Cygnus, Re: Oscar,

You do criticism. Oscar does condemnation. Criticisms can be helpful and intriguing to discuss; the latter is a complete waste of time.

932. Marja - May 24, 2014

920/21, Ahmed,

THANK YOU for this. I shall get to it straightaway and perhaps see you over there, too. Like you, I’m shy of using my “real” email &c. to sign into Disqus so thanks for the idea of how to sign in on that, too.

I will probably not have the same screen name over there but chances are you’ll recognize my writing “voice” ;-)

933. Captain Slow - May 24, 2014

@ 901 Cygnus-X1

Ok, it does sound completely impossible when put like that. However, in DS9 it was said that the Dominion’s transporters had a range of several light years. And some of the information about transwarp beaming came from Spock Prime who must have had knowledge of more advanced transporter technology than anyone in the 23rd century. So perhaps he was able to boost the range to a few light years and the relays did the rest.

934. Phil - May 24, 2014

@927. The problem is, it’s becoming very black and white. The more you mine pre-BR Trek for references, inadvertently, all you are doing is illustrating that pre-BR Trek has all the same faults you are chastising Bad Robot Trek for. So, if this is a difference that makes no difference, then what are you all worked up about?

Genesis is the very embodiment of everything you believe is wrong with BR Trek, yet you seem perfectly happy to gloss over that as a nothing more then a useful plot device to resurrect Spock (Genesis vs. Khan blood debate, anyone?) . Now, I’m one of those guys who would have been perfectly happy if they had left Spock dead, ignored the protomatter bulls**t (sorry, yet more fantastical bad science…say, Kirk ate some protomatter fruit. How come he didn’t explode?) and just moved on. WOK could have been tweaked to either ditch Genesis all together, and whatever movie was shot in place of SFS might have got the crew back to saving the universe a bit sooner.

All movies are creative endeavors, which leaves plenty of room to play should have, would have, could have games all day long. It comes down to personal preference, which is okay, but this fatal flaw you keep trying to illustrate just doesn’t exist.

935. metronome - May 25, 2014

@833. Chris Doohan

I don’t know if you are really Chris Doohan, but if you are, you should know that you really come off as an a-hole with your rude verbal insult of Oscar. IF you are Chris Doohan (and again, I’m not sure that you are), I must say that I really like Star Trek Continues and your role in it. I have only words of praise for it. That is REAL Star Trek. J.J., on the other hand, has been making junk with the name Star Trek attached to it. I’m sorry, I have to disagree with you. Star Trek is currently NOT in the good hands. However, we can’t judge something that hasn’t been done yet (3rd movie), only that which has been done so far. So, a new chance for the new director.

936. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

# 930. Marja – May 24, 2014

“…recall in TOS’s “Immunity Syndrome” Spock nearly passed out from the shock of 400 minds screaming … I have no idea why he didn’t hit the floor in the AUverse.” — Marja

The thing is, I believe that the hyper-accelerated consumption of Vulcan by the artificial red matter induced black hole is meant to suggest that it occurred so fast that there wasn’t time for any Vulcan to scream out; let alone realize what was happening. However, then they negate that by having Spock’s Mom, a mere human, scream on the way down.

Their 2009 movie has more than a few moments where it appears the script had a basic sound structure but some other factor was running around with an apparent “Wouldn’t it be cool if we did this?” attitude adding things here and there without a care as to how it might affect the narrative’s basic flow and commitment to a certain logic.

In STiD, people seem to lay this it at Lidelof’s feet. But there was a writers’ strike in 2008 during principal photography, such that it seems more than likely it lays at JJ’s struggling to write without really writing feet.

Also, I always had a sense in the Prime Universe that Spock for some reason rode Chekov a little harder than the rest of the crew which Chekov deflected with his Russia-did-it-first humor.

In the altverse, I expected more so with Chekov’s facile ability to be scapegoated in Amanda’s death, but I can’t recall a moment in either film where Spock expressed even the most minor of annoyances with him?

937. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#934. Phil – May 24, 2014

Actually, this is an age old struggle in science-fiction, it starts with the Gernsbackian hard approach which demands that everything in a science-fiction tale be backed up with equations proving that the only reason whatever is proposed isn’t common to our timess is that it is too resource and/or economically expensive to achieve, and goes to the other extreme where writers don’t like any sort of creative restraint and want to rename the genre SF for Speculative Fiction.

My love affair with science-fiction definitely has its roots in the ideals expressed by Hugo Gernsback, but by the time STAR TREK came along I’d say I’d developed a more laid back approach. The writer doesn’t have to write a scientific proof of the novel elements he or she introduces in their narrative, but it at least had to be extrapolated from something preexisting in science and technology that did have one.

So humans have been been genetically (through selective breeding of life forms) and physically modify the surface of a planet (Earth) using simple tools for thousands of decades. So postulating a more advanced tool/technology, GENESIS, that does this more efficiently, gets a pass. However, in the next film claiming that it gets this ability from using something invented out of whole cloth called protomatter of which science currently has no idea or samples with which to measure or ascertain possible properties, doesn’t.

Red matter has the same problem as protomatter compounded by the fact that at the time of the script being committed to page the scientific community was just beginning to start the first attempts to look for the creation of artificial blackholes and eventually glean data with which to determine their properties which would given better definition as to what something like Red matter would have to be like.

What about rubindium? Well, the “-ium” implies the writer understands that there are undiscovered elements in the Periodic Table. Putting it there, gives it certain boundaries which is why I’m inclined to give a pass, but at the same time I am fully cognizant why a fellow Gernsbackian wouldn’t.

938. Captain Slow - May 25, 2014

@ 935 metronome

I can’t speak for him, but I think his problem was that Oscar was being rude about people Chris Doohan is friends with.

939. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

930. Marja – May 24, 2014

Khan used Super Colon Blow to get to Kronos! “Yes, you just pour a bowl and BLOW!”

I get it! It’s a fart joke!

940. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

933. Captain Slow – May 24, 2014

However, in DS9 it was said that the Dominion’s transporters had a range of several light years. And some of the information about transwarp beaming came from Spock Prime who must have had knowledge of more advanced transporter technology than anyone in the 23rd century. So perhaps he was able to boost the range to a few light years and the relays did the rest.

You raise an interesting point there about the Dominion.

Just in terms of believability, it seems like you can get away with giving more fantastical technology to mysterious alien cultures on the other side of the galaxy (1) when there’s no direct line of cultural development between them and humanity; (2) when the alien culture is supposed to be mysterious and highly advanced (as the Dominion were written to be); and (3) when doing so furthers the mystery and mystique of that alien culture. What you then have is a bad guy thematically related to the alien in Predator, wherein the challenge of the protagonists was to find a way to defeat an enemy that was so technologically advanced, using only their ingenuity and guts. The Borg are another example of this.

But, see, the fantastical technology of the alien in Predator served that specific PURPOSE in the story, and it seems like it did with respect to the Dominion and the Borg, too.

On the other hand, when we see characters based on real-life humans two or three hundred years in the future, we expect a certain continuity between them and ourselves. We know what’s technologically possible today, and we can sort of extrapolate how one might get from our level of technological advancement to that of our progeny in 200-300 years.

But, you have to be careful about having fantastical alien technology get into the hands of humans, unless it’s for a very specific and well-defined purpose within the story. Otherwise, the real-life basis for the world (which has always been fundamental to Trek) starts to break down, and you start getting more of a Star Wars setting where the world and its characters are by design not at all related to humanity: “A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away…”

Also, you have to be very careful, as has been mentioned, about the IMPLICATIONS of the tech conceits upon the believability of your world, its characters and upon the art “form,” meaning Trek TV and movies and the logistics of composing them. If you corrupt the Trek world with too many overly fantastical conceits, you start losing the cohesion and believability of it. Before you know it, you’ve ventured into the realm of fantasy and getting back to science fiction might be very difficult or impossible.

But, I can’t stress the issue of PURPOSE enough. A smart tech conceit is not only linked to the real world somehow (such as by details regarding its scientific basis), but it also serves a well-defined PURPOSE within the story, and this purpose should be one that only a tech conceit such as the one being proposed can satisfy. Otherwise, why weaken the believability of your world (assuming your world is derivative of the real world)? The PURPOSE, as used herein, relates to the story being told, a theme of that story, often relating to certain meaningful implications for characters in the story.

The Genesis Device, as I mentioned in #927, is a good example of a tech conceit which served some very well defined purposes. Yes, it’s an incredibly fantastical conceit. But it earns its keep in terms of theme, story and motif yield.

941. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@929. Cygnus-X1,
“Like everything else, they had to turn Khan into a comic-book villain”

Does this mean that now that Orci has stylistic control over the movie that Kirk and crew will get new skin-tight muscle suits?

Maybe levitating jet packs so they can fly through the air, and invisible body shields/exoskeletons to make them super strong, and quasi-invincible?

And they already have portable site to site transporters (forget they are also transwarp capable), so they can teleport anywhere they want. Spock is already telepathic … Hey they’ve got the makings of x-men here without the genetic mutations … Then again Kirk has been infused with Khan’s blood so who knows …

942. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

934. Phil – May 24, 2014

Genesis is the very embodiment of everything you believe is wrong with BR Trek

It would have been without all of the purposes that it served for the story. You’re not getting the issue of earning its keep and cost/benefit of the conceit.

I totally agree that the Genesis Device was incredibly fantastical…maybe too fantastical. I’m not saying that it was necessarily a perfect conceit. Perhaps all that the Genesis Device did for TWOK could have been achieved with a scaled-down, more believable conceit. I honestly don’t know. I’d have to really think about that. But there’s no denying what the Genesis Device did for TWOK and the PURPOSES that it served. Because the Genesis Device conceit gave us so much benefit—it’s the centerpiece of the whole story, it drives the story, gives us a thoughtful theme, serves as a MacGuffin for the villain, serves as a backdrop and provides object metaphor for the death/rebirth motif, which itself drives the character development—one tends not to question the need for it. Compare that with the duffel-bag transporter in STID which was totally unnecessary. It served no greater purposes for the story, and wasn’t even necessary to achieve the mechanics of the plot point—Khan could have escaped in other, more believable ways.

You have to consider all that I’m saying and not keep reducing it all to just “the device,” itself (“device” meaning the object, the piece of technology and how believable it is, in and of itself) There are issues relating to the device, itself. But there are other issues as well—among them Literary Purpose, Implications for the world of the story (and for the Trek franchise in toto).

943. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@940 Cygnus-X1,
“But, you have to be careful about having fantastical alien technology get into the hands of humans, unless it’s for a very specific and well-defined purpose within the story.”

Good points, TOS knew this full well when they captured the cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident. It was decades later before the federation agreed not to develop cloaking technology. So what kept TOS from using it? Because that would have gotten them out of too many situations too easily thus reducing the drama in the story. Just like a portable transporter that can beam anyone, anywhere, anytime. Unlike TOS & TNG, STID did not have the good sense to leave transwarp beaming well enough alone.

Now here’s a point about the Genesis device — if it had been used in STID some here would be going out of their way to justify it, using quantum entanglement no doubt. But the big difference between the Genesis device and the fantastical technology used in Bad Robot Trek, is that Genesis didn’t work. Therefore, we only had to accept it once, suspend our disbelief knowing full well there would not be future implications for it. And it pretty much did exactly what they said it would — it didn’t behave inconsistently from how they showed us it worked. But again, for me it’s not the fantastical technology itself, but the implications it has on future story-telling.

944. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

937. Disinvited – May 25, 2014

Red matter has the same problem as protomatter compounded by the fact that at the time of the script being committed to page the scientific community was just beginning to start the first attempts to look for the creation of artificial blackholes and eventually glean data with which to determine their properties which would given better definition as to what something like Red matter would have to be like.

By “artificial black holes” are you referring to concerns at the time relating to the Large Hadron Collider first going into service?

By referencing protomatter and Red Matter, you’ve reminded me that I’d asked Bob here about Red Matter shortly after ST09 came out and his explanation was that he’d based it on Dark Matter. His line of reasoning was basically that since Dark Matter is an unknown, mysterious, naturally occurring substance, why not Red Matter, too?

But this line of reasoning just takes the most superficial aspect of Dark Matter, i.e. its mysteriousness, and uses that alone as license to create a fantastical substance, as you say out of whole cloth, which appears to violate the laws of physics (and therefore of the Trek world). Dark Matter is mysterious in that it interacts gravitationally with ordinary matter while remaining (as yet) invisible to us. But, Dark Matter is thought to be extremely abundant in the universe. It’s thought to be present in amounts on the order of normal matter. It’s not like some magical stuff where a pinch of it has the gravity of 4 Suns. Not all unknowns are equal. There’s a difference between not knowing why we can’t see a thing which otherwise exhibits properties conforming to the rest of nature, versus not knowing how a thing completely violates the known laws of physics and behaves in a way discordant with all observations, measurements and even theoretical research relating to the natural world.

945. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

# 933. Captain Slow – May 24, 2014, 901. Cygnus-X1

FWIW, T(O)S gives evidence of long distance transporters existing in the Milky Way — just not The Federation. In the episode, ASSIGNMENT EARTH, Gary 7’s bosses employ a powerful enough to directly transport between star systems transporter. The episode hammers it home that it IS a transporter because its signal is so powerful (and compatible) that it causes the Enterpise’s transporter to lock on, intercept, and reintegrate the being using it.

At no time do the transwarp transporters as realized in the two latest films give an on screen indication of this type of power being employed. In the 2009 effort, it is done with a conventional transporter which we know from ASSIGNMENT EARTH does not even match the power of the one in Gary 7’s office “safe”.

I think it is reasonable to assume that transwarp transporting is highly efficient and its energy requirements are low.

946. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

941. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

Maybe levitating jet packs so they can fly through the air, and invisible body shields/exoskeletons to make them super strong, and quasi-invincible?

Yeah right, they’re awfully close to that already. I think if Orci actually took it that far, the people who don’t understand the complaints about the comic-book-ness of BR Trek would finally see how it’s a problem for the franchise.

943. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

TOS knew this full well when they captured the cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident. It was decades later before the federation agreed not to develop cloaking technology. So what kept TOS from using it? Because that would have gotten them out of too many situations too easily thus reducing the drama in the story. Just like a portable transporter that can beam anyone, anywhere, anytime. Unlike TOS & TNG, STID did not have the good sense to leave transwarp beaming well enough alone.

Right, exactly. In TOS, cloaking technology served the purpose of giving the Romulans and Klingons a tactical advantage over the Federation, just as did the alien’s technology in Predator, also cloaking technology, actually. (I wonder if there was direct influence there.)

But the big difference between the Genesis device and the fantastical technology used in Bad Robot Trek, is that Genesis didn’t work. Therefore, we only had to accept it once, suspend our disbelief knowing full well there would not be future implications for it. And it pretty much did exactly what they said it would — it didn’t behave inconsistently from how they showed us it worked. But again, for me it’s not the fantastical technology itself, but the implications it has on future story-telling.

Right, good point. And the fact that Genesis didn’t work played into the scientific/technological hubris theme. Again, Genesis served well-defined purposes within the story.

947. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

945. Disinvited – May 25, 2014

I really enjoy Assignment: Earth. I’d like to know more about the whole plan of how it was supposed to be a spin-off series. I love the whole 1960s look, feel and vibe of it. I really need to read Cushman’s These Are the Voyages! Think I’ll order that now, actually!

948. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@945. Disinvited,
“I think it is reasonable to assume that transwarp transporting is highly efficient and its energy requirements are low.”

This is not reasonable to assume at all. It’s as specious as it gets.

They also don’t give us an indication they don’t employ substantial power. We have no idea what kind of power resources Spock tied into the shuttle’s transporter system. Captain Slow is speculating about subspace relays, yet that’s not in the film either.

And who knows what’s powering the transwarp duffle bag … Red matter? Khans blood?

949. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

BTW, I’ll be out of town from Mon until Thurs and probably not checking the comments until I get back.

950. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

# 944. Cygnus-X1 – May 25, 2014

“By “artificial black holes” are you referring to concerns at the time relating to the Large Hadron Collider first going into service” — Cygnus-X1

Not the “concerns” because I never had any, but what the researchers said they were going to keep an eye out looking for evidence that lead to the less well-informed to have them.

“But this line of reasoning just takes the most superficial aspect of Dark Matter, i.e. its mysteriousness, and uses that alone as license to create a fantastical substance, as you say out of whole cloth, which appears to violate the laws of physics (and therefore of the Trek world).” — Cygnus-X1

Indeed, the worst abuses of the “Speculative Fiction” extremists are of the type “If I can imagine it then I should be able to use it.” Contrary to the fact that plenty of things people dream up don’t ever get a patent because they don’t work.

951. Ahmed - May 25, 2014

I think it is fair to say that as a result of Nero incursion; Nu-Trek 23rd century technology is far superior to the 24th century prime universe tech.

The Narada with its Borg weaponry tech & prime Spock with his future knowledge, which he was more than willing to share as we saw with the Skype session in STID, clearly caused a ripple effect in that new timeline.

952. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@951. Ahmed,
“Nu-Trek 23rd century technology is far superior to the 24th century prime universe tech.”

Yes, and it’s all thanks to a 20th century genetically superior Earth man, who picked it all up in less than a year, but understands it better than Prime Spock and Transwarp-beaming-inventor-and-all-around-miracle-worker, Scotty. Makes perfect sense to me.

953. Ahmed - May 25, 2014

@952. Curious Cadet

“Yes, and it’s all thanks to a 20th century genetically superior Earth man, who picked it all up in less than a year, but understands it better than Prime Spock and Transwarp-beaming-inventor-and-all-around-miracle-worker, Scotty. Makes perfect sense to me.”

Of course, Khan is better at EVERYTHING :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Sa6oUUByE

954. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#948. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

I was speaking in terms of dramatic presentation. ASSIGNMENT EARTH establishes what the effects of more powerful than normal transporter beam should look and sound like.

The first use of the transwarp transporter was from the dimly lit Ice Station Vega where it would be equally specious to argue that it had a fully functioning warp core to power it. Its effects had no indication of abnormal transporter power. Clearly its power wasn’t on the level of Gary 7’s beam or else one would have expected altEnterprise’s transporters to have locked onto it and tried to retrieve. In which case, altSpock would have been aware what had transpired and not been so clueless in interrogating Kirk and Scott about how they arrived, as in he might not know what type, but he’d have known it was some kind of transporter.

In fact, Enterprise didn’t detect any kind of energy whatsoever only intruders and that only because Kirk opened the pipe hatch. I’ll argue that that instance of its use clearly seems to have utilized so little energy that it was “undetectable”.

955. Bill Peters - May 25, 2014

935. metronome – people like Chris Doohan and Bob Orci on this site have to be the Real McCoy (pun kind of Intended) to post under that name here, so if it says Chris Doohan, it is Chris Doohan.

956. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

953. Ahmed – May 25, 2014

Cumberbatch has such gravitas…that voice…I’d like to see him in an SNL-style parody reading off a grocery list or something with that voice…

But the dialogue they gave him there is unwieldy in places. The plot is so convoluted, I get the impression that the actors didn’t really quite understand all of it, but they did their best to act like they did, which is obviously their job.

957. Adolescent Nightmare - May 25, 2014

Patrick Stewart looks older than Ian McKellan now.

958. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#952. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

Don’t confuse the altMr. Scott with the same Mr. Scott who actually completed his journey of discovery and went on to invent it. I’d argue Prime Scott (and perhaps Prime Spock as well) has a breadth and depth of understanding, and wisdom about transwarp transportation that neither altScott nor Khan possessed at the end of the 2009 effort.

959. Adolescent Nightmare - May 25, 2014

Hooray for Chris Doohan! Boo on the sockpuppets!

960. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#957. Adolescent Nightmare – May 25, 2014

I feel sorry for the neck biter fans. The half-life of an actor of a forever young vampire character, just can’t be that long.

961. Lemingsworth Bint - May 25, 2014

Yes, hurrah for Chris Doohan. Since telling off obnoxious fanboys is obviously very good for one’s career, we may see Chris directing one day.

962. Adolescent Nightmare - May 25, 2014

Godzilla wasn’t that good. I hope they didn’t hire him because it’s going to be Boba Fett vs kaiju.

963. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@954. Disinvited,
“I’ll argue that that instance of its use clearly seems to have utilized so little energy that it was “undetectable”.

Here we go again. I won’t get sucked into one of these endless debates that is based on speculation and specious reasoning. There is no “reasonable assumption” here, just what makes you happy.

You’re conflating Gary 7’s transporter beam with transwarp beaming. There’s no basis for that. We have no idea how transwarp beaming works, yet you claim because it doesn’t seem to work like alien technology that just so happened to be compatible with Prime Starfleets, which may have NOTHING to do with with alt Starfleets (do you know for a fact that NuTrek’s transporter tech is identical to Prime Trek’s?), that Transwarp beaming must work on some other principle that requires very little power (because we didn’t see Spock plug it into a warp core, which may not even be a requirement), and is otherwise incompatible with ALT Starfleet’s transporter technology — the very same technology that Spock adapted for Transwarp beaming in the first place. And for all we know, Khan’s duffle bag was merely a remote control for Marcus’ mega-tronic-super-duper-hyper-site-to-site-transwarp-beaming-device.

But enjoy that delusion based on nothing. I’m not saying it’s either. I’m saying they jumped the shark with it. Period.

The fact that the Enterprise didn’t detect the beam in ST09 is just one more poorly thought out fly in the ointment, nothing more. Not only will transwarp beaming get you anywhere in the galaxy you want to go in an instant, it’s completely undetectable, and now you propose it works on two AA batteries! Wow, why DIDN’T Marcus just beam all those torpedoes to Khan’s exact position and get rid of him and start the war that way?

964. Adolescent Nightmare - May 25, 2014

960

What?

965. The Observer - May 25, 2014

Marja,

Perhaps StarTrek.com shut down it’s boards because Paramount has decided to move forward without fan comment?

966. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#963. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

Well, if there’s anything to be said, I think I’m finally getting a handle on some of the pronouncements you make with respect to these fictions.

“Wow, why DIDN’T Marcus just beam all those torpedoes to Khan’s exact position and get rid of him and start the war that way?” – Curious Cadet

I already asked as much in msg 746. We should note that killing Khan via undetectable transporter is not a sure fire way to start a war but since Marcus doesn’t seem to be the type that planting evidence is beyond, well, it just gives him one more opportunity to rub his magic transwarp lamp.

967. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#964. Adolescent Nightmare – May 25, 2014

Twilighter ilk. Since vampires supposedly have some sort of ageless immortality, actors that portray such have a more limited window of viable portrayal compared to actors portraying starship captains.

968. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

So the Genesis device gets a pass because it didn’t work but not the portable transwarp beaming device because it is shown to work (in one particular instance)? Okaaay – I can see the logic in that *conceit – NOT!

So it is OK to show a technology to be used once, but not OK if it continues to be used, because of its “implications”? Whaaat?

Today we have a plethora of technologies, eg in medicine, which we could assume can get used by anyone, anywhere, any time, but many don’t, for a variety of reasons. It might be a reasonable assumption that a good third of the present day human population have never heard of CT or MRI scans, let alone have access to either, even when many infirmed might benefit from the diagnoses that use of these technologies could provide. So just who are these *anyone’s* – either now or in a alt. 23rd century ST universe?

Showing Khan using Scotty’s equations to develop his own transwarp beaming device did serve two purposes.

First – Harrison/Khan had far superior intellect and had access to the equations (no doubt hacking S31 computer firewalls or whatever they are called) and could use those calculations to further develop the idea for his personal use. The fact is that there was no way that just “anyone, anywhere, anytime” could use such technology. Scotty was denied access to his own calculations.

Second – use of allowed H/K to escape earth’s boundaries…

The implications of this technology does seem that, without safeguards put in place, this particular technology, and further developed by Khan, cannot be easily detected by the sensors of that time.

Just like many technologies today finding their way into the wrong hands pose a threat to some supposed top secret work going on etc and/or to the welfare of the wider, larger public, so too can various technologies of the future pose similar threats to future generations. Care and vigilance is needed…

969. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

Whatever energies are involved in transwarp beaming, a couple of things seam certain:

1. It isn’t powerful enough to operate while the Narada’s drill is active.

2. It isn’t powerful enough to operate through the walls of a Nibiru volcano at close range.

970. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#968. Keachick (Rose) – May 25, 2014

Let’s be clear. At the end of STII, the Genesis device worked. It wasn’t until the retconing of STIII with the introduction of the line-crossing “protomatter” that it was transformed into a “failure.”

971. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

“Not only will transwarp beaming get you anywhere in the galaxy you want to go in an instant, it’s completely undetectable, and now you propose it works on two AA batteries! Wow, why DIDN’T Marcus just beam all those torpedoes to Khan’s exact position and get rid of him and start the war that way?”

No, from what we have been shown, the transwarp beaming device can get two people from one part of a galaxy to another (but only if destination co-ordinates are known), and risky at that. There is no suggestion that the same device could beam 72 torpedoes as well to just anywhere. This technology is in its infancy and worked successfully for three people – total, one of whom ended up in the process of drowning because he was beamed into the water coolant piping on the Enterprise.

Yeah – this is certainly something that could be relied up to beam anyone, everyone, anything irrespective of size, nature of object(s), just anywhere, any time. Yeah right – and my grandmother flew to the moon…sigh…:(

The other aspect here is that the Admiral Marcus’s of this world are warmongers. They live for battle with lots of ships, with his being the biggest, big guns, big explosions… Diplomacy, or nothing more than a skirmish in order to “set things right” are not his style. Marcus sees Kirk, Spock et al as being far bigger enemies than even the Klingons, simply because Kirk/Spock believe in peaceful solutions and are prepared to even sacrifice their careers, even lives, so that another people may not get taken out by a giant volcanic eruption. Such people have no place in Marcus’s world, hence his desire to get rid of Kirk/Spock et al one way or another.

Of course, Marcus never meant to save either Kirk or any of his crew. The Enterprise, with the crew lead by these particular senior officers, young though they are, represent the very antithesis of who the Marcus’s and Khans are.

972. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

#969
“1. It isn’t powerful enough to operate while the Narada’s drill is active.”
When the Narada’s drill was operating on Vulcan, no one had the transwarp beaming calculations…
Yes, Kirk and Spock were able to beam aboard the Narada while it was drilling into earth’s core.

“2. It isn’t powerful enough to operate through the walls of a Nibiru volcano at close range.”
They did not have the transwarp beaming technology. They had use of normal transporter technology which could not be used because of the “ionization” etc effect.

I would hazard that transporter “beaming” has a different effect and function than other kinds of “beaming” that are more weapon-like in nature.

973. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

#924 – Re: ionization, which Spock described was the situation inhibiting the use of transporter, from orbit

“Ionizing radiation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ionizing (or ionising) radiation is composed of subatomic particles, ions or atoms moving at relativistic speeds, or electromagnetic waves on the short wavelength end of the electromagnetic spectrum that carry enough energy to liberate electrons from atoms or molecules, thereby ionizing them. Gamma rays, X-rays, and the upper vacuum ultraviolet part of the ultraviolet spectrum are ionizing, whereas the lower ultraviolet, visible light (including laser light), infrared, microwaves, and radio waves are considered non-ionizing radiation (although lower ultraviolet can still create some ionization).[1]

Typical particles include alpha particles, beta particles and neutrons, and also such as mesons that constitute cosmic rays.[2][3]

Ionizing radiation arises from a variety of sources, such as bombardment of the Earth by cosmic rays, the decay of radioactive materials, matter at extremely high temperatures (e.g. plasma discharge or the corona of the Sun), or acceleration of charged particles by electromagnetic fields (e.g. lightning or supernova explosions). Ionizing radiation can also be generated by the production of high energy particles in X-ray tubes and particle accelerators.

Ionizing radiation is invisible and not directly detectable by human senses, so radiation detection instruments such as Geiger counters are required. However, in some cases ionising radiation may lead to secondary emission of visible light upon interaction with matter, such as in Cherenkov radiation and radioluminescence.

It is applied in a wide variety of fields such as medicine, research, manufacturing, construction, and many other areas, but presents a health hazard if proper measures against undesired exposure aren’t followed. Exposure to ionizing radiation causes damage to living tissue, and can result in mutation, radiation sickness, cancer, and death.”

974. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@969. Disinvited,
“1. It isn’t powerful enough to operate while the Narada’s drill is active.”

OK, I’ll bite, why do you say this? Since the drill was NOT active when Kirk & Spock beamed to the Enterprise.

———————–
“2. It isn’t powerful enough to operate through the walls of a Nibiru volcano at close range.”

And why on Earth do you say this?

975. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

#972. Keachick (Rose) – May 25, 2014

You yourself said “The technology” is just “transwarp beaming calculations”. If they have Mr. Scott, they have “The technology” on Nibiru just as they did to beam aboard the Narada at Earth. At best, they might be breaking an order, but a little order ignoring just isn’t BIG enough compared to wholehog breaking of the Prime Directive?

“Like you said we need to stay invisible to Nero or he’ll destroy us.
If Mr. Scott can get us to warp factor 4 and if we drop out of warp behind one of Saturn’s moons, say Titan. The magnetic distortion from the planet’s rings will make us invisible to Nero’s sensors. From there, as long as the drill is not activated we can beam aboard the enemy ship.” — Chekov from 2009’s STAR TREK

Also note, he’s saying one or the other transporter is not affect by “magnetic distortions”.

976. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

# 974. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

“OK, I’ll bite, why do you say this? Since the drill was NOT active when Kirk & Spock beamed to the Enterprise.” — Curious Cadet

Because Chekov said he could not beam them if it was active and Scotty agreed.

977. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

A little something for Marja…:)

“I can’t wait til they go to Earth for hunchback whales!
Spock is gonna look so hot with a headband and aerobics gear!”

A quote from a poster on the STID IMDb message board.

978. Disinvited - May 25, 2014

# 974. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

A review of the Cc reveals Spock declares Chekov “Correct.” in response to McCoy casting aspersions with regards to his age in this and Scotty saying it might work.

979. Phil - May 25, 2014

Why are we assuming Genesis didn’t work? It did exactly what it was supposed to, they just needed to stabilize it on a planetwide scale. The Genesis cave seemed to be holding together just fine, and the proto-apple Kirk chowed down on didn’t cause him to explode. As it was a prototype 90% of the way to the finish line, why would we presume it was just dropped?

Also, the Klingons quickly surmised the weapons potential of Genesis. I’d have to assume that some admiral, somewhere, would not mind having a couple of these doomsday devices in his arsenal if some form of mutual assured destruction existed in the 23rd century as well.

So, we have fantastic devices in both universes. Why have we decided they are okay in one universe, but not the other again? Maybe if NASA or Elon Musk gives one of these movies the official okie-dokie we can all just move on….

980. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

Obviously, transwarp beaming is not just calculations.

This does pose a question, put by many others, as to how prime Spock and Scotty could use an old shuttle’s transporters pad and computer tech and do such an upgrade, so that it could use the later transwarp beaming technology successfully…OOPS…Bob Orci? Explain please…LOL You do realize that it would not be Star Trek if it did not have gaffes like this…:)

What makes you think that Scotty has everything in his head and can recall every bit of calculation accurately? Scotty might be a genius, but even geniuses need help via being able to physically access the calculations they have written down. The other aspect is that this Scotty has only just been given his older counterpart’s solution via prime Spock. Remember that everything to do with calculations associated with transwarp beaming remained with prime Spock on Delta Vega, the ice planet. There were only two transporter pads, for Kirk and Scotty. They did not have the computations in order to make any adjustments to the Enterprise’s transporters.

It does seem that alternate universe standard transporters can beam people/things further than the same could in the prime TOS universe. This would explain how the Enterprise managed to beam Kirk and Spock onto the Narada on Earth from Saturn. Neither ships were moving, therefore no transwarp beaming was necessary.

981. Keachick (Rose) - May 25, 2014

#952 – “Yes, and it’s all thanks to a 20th century genetically superior Earth man, who picked it all up in less than a year, but understands it better than Prime Spock and Transwarp-beaming-inventor-and-all-around-miracle-worker, Scotty. Makes perfect sense to me.”

Yes, it can make sense – ref my post #980.

This issue has been raised before as to how apparently easy it was for Harrison/Khan to understand 23rd century sciences. As has been pointed out –

1. Khan was already familiar with the sciences, theories and hypotheses of the late 20th century, so if some of present date theories did actualize, it would be a matter of “So that’s how they finally did it!”

2. Today there are people (in the minority) who are very gifted intellectually. One or two have PhDs in this and that by the age of 20. There are the savants. I would think that it is a given that none of these had the dubious advantage of being genetically engineered to have much superior physical and intellectual abilities. However, this character Khan did have such done to him. It really should come as no real surprise that this H/Khan should be able to do what was shown, given that the work in improving weapons technologies etc was his only focus.

Marcus was doing what Hitler and Stalin proved themselves very adept at – holding guns to the heads of family/crew or others in order to force a skilled member of such a family/group to do their bidding.

982. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2014

@976. Disinvited,
“Because Chekov said he could not beam them if it was active and Scotty agreed.”

And what does that have to do with Transwarp beaming? They were talking about conventional beaming.

Likewise on Nibiru.

We have no idea what transwarp beaming’s limitations are. And in any event, what does being powerful enough to overcome a close proximity electromagnetic field have to do with transmitting a beam from one side of the galaxy to another?

983. Who cares - May 25, 2014

@926. Its not just fighting words, it is a bannable offense at Trekmovie.com according to the site’s owner Anthony. As for not having seen Oscar say that then just look at this thread comment 792.

http://trekmovie.com/2014/04/22/orci-and-kurtzman-to-end-film-partnership-orci-lobbying-to-direct-trek-3/

Thats just the first time I saw him do it, not the last.

984. Ahmed - May 25, 2014

Just came back from “X-Men: Days of Future Past”, it was the best X-Men movie ever. I loved watching the old & new cast working together even with the short time that Patrick Stewart & Ian McKellen got on the screen.

Quicksilver was the best new mutant, his scene at the Pentagon was so funny & amazing in the same time.

The future Sentinels were the perfect terminators, an unstoppable ruthless killing machines & the post credits scene in ancient Egypt was very interesting.

I’m definitely going to see it again on Tuesday.

985. Phil - May 25, 2014

@983. Oscar has gone out of his way to point out that nu-Trek fans are not the real deal, nothing more then BR sycophants and Bob Orci groupies…

986. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

979. Phil – May 25, 2014

Why are we assuming Genesis didn’t work? It did exactly what it was supposed to, they just needed to stabilize it on a planetwide scale. The Genesis cave seemed to be holding together just fine, and the proto-apple Kirk chowed down on didn’t cause him to explode. As it was a prototype 90% of the way to the finish line, why would we presume it was just dropped?

In STIII, David says, “Genesis doesn’t work. I can’t believe they’d kill us for it.”

But, you make a valid point. The people funding the Genesis project might well have felt differently.

Also, the Klingons quickly surmised the weapons potential of Genesis. I’d have to assume that some admiral, somewhere, would not mind having a couple of these doomsday devices in his arsenal if some form of mutual assured destruction existed in the 23rd century as well.

This I’m not sure about. I can’t recall Star Fleet in the 23rd Century in the Prime Universe ever being portrayed in such a way as to suggest that they’d keep mass extinction weapons on hand, just in case…though, it is possible.

So, we have fantastic devices in both universes. Why have we decided they are okay in one universe, but not the other again?

It’s not about which universe they are in, it’s about their (1) PURPOSE in the story; (2) IMPLICATIONS for the story and for future stories in terms of plot holes and the cohesion and believability of the Trek-world setting; and, overall COST/BENEFIT to the story, i.e. what do they yield in terms of driving the story, thematic development, motifs, character motivations, etc.

I’ve put the most important bits in caps and italics as you keep ignoring them for some reason.

987. Cygnus-X1 - May 25, 2014

985. Phil – May 25, 2014

@983. Oscar has gone out of his way to point out that nu-Trek fans are not the real deal, nothing more then BR sycophants and Bob Orci groupies…

Oscar, you shouldn’t do this. It precludes amicable discourse when you state at the outset that the other side is, by its very nature, not valid.

988. Marja - May 26, 2014

951, I’m skipping a bunch of posts here, so at the risk of saying something that may have been said,

When the Narada entered the region of space where it destroyed the Kelvin, it created the AU [hmm, what does that mean for the Kelvin...?] This was the day of Kirk’s birth.

Technology advanced quickly because of this new threat to the Federation [that didn't know it was a multiverse Federation]. Having seen the advanced technology on Narada, I imagine the Federation got a Manhattan Project-type program underway toute suite. I also imagine that since the Klingons imprisoned Nero for 25 years that the Klingons [and perhaps Federation spies] were able to reverse engineer many of Narada’s systems.

[which I'm still wondering why did a Romulan mining ship have all those weapons ... ] [so many questions!]

Anyways, I was shocked as I re-watched STiD for the first time in months to realize that yes, indeed, Khan was captured by Starfleet AFTER the destruction of Vulcan. So presumably, the Vengeance and all the advanced weaponry and ALL that jazz got built in what, a year?

Remember that TNG episode when Data changed out hundreds of isolinear chips in seconds?

I’m thinking that’s how fast Khan must have been working

989. Marja - May 26, 2014

Sorry my #988 was in response to this response to Ahmed at 951

952 Curious Cadet @951. Ahmed, “Nu-Trek 23rd century technology is far superior to the 24th century prime universe tech.”

Yes, and it’s all thanks to a 20th century genetically superior Earth man, who picked it all up in less than a year, but understands it better than Prime Spock and Transwarp-beaming-inventor-and-all-around-miracle-worker, Scotty. Makes perfect sense to me.

990. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#982. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2014

Establishes the bare minimum power requirements to perform and what maximum power levels can be achieved under its initial implementation.

Given its first use in the altuniverse was to a ship at Warp far outside the Vulcan system because these altships move farther in shorter periods of time, I think it is safe to claim its signal must be able to overcome more than a standard transporter. Also, it is a simple matter of probability in space that the more space is traversed by the transwarp beam, the more likely something that can interfere will be encountered and have to be overcome.

If conventional alttransporters can work from the moons of Saturn to Earth, then what were the needs of all those shuttles at the Jupiter skunkworks? I mean one of the first rules of operating a covert facility is to minimize observable traffic heading for and coming from the secret location. Also remember, the Prime Federation at that point in time had cargo transporters.

Ocam’s suggests the more likely use of transwarp transporter is the correct assumption.

Besides, if conventional transporters can work in the presence of magnetic distortions so powerful that hundred year advanced Romulan sensors enhanced by superior Borg tech can’t overcome why would the magnetic fields of a volcano be any sort of obstacle?

991. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#988. Marja – May 26, 2014

Recall, Khan is a product of our time. I think it is safe to assume that at the minimum he set up a research and production facility as a combination of Menlo Park and Ford’s assembly line enhanced by whatever improvements the intervening hundreds of years brought to such.

992. Curious Cadet - May 26, 2014

@990 disinvited,
“Ocam’s suggests the more likely use of transwarp transporter is the correct assumption”

You are confused. Transwarp beaming did not exist during ST09, except for Prime Spock’s experimental transport of Scotty & Kirk to the Enterprise.

993. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#973. Keachick (Rose) – May 25, 2014, 930. Marja – May 24, 2014,

From STiD’s closed captions:

“Do we have use of the transporters?

– Negative, sir.
– Not with these magnetic fields.

KIRK: I need to beam Spock
back to the ship.”

See Curie Point:

http://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/curie_point/

“High temperatures can disturb this process of magnetization. Thermal energy makes the iron atoms jiggle back and forth, disturbing their magnetic alignment. When the vibration of the atoms becomes too great, the atomic magnets do not line up as well, and the iron loses its magnetism. The temperature at which this occurs is called the Curie point

Inside the earth, there is a core of molten iron. This iron is at a temperature above the Curie point and therefore can’t be magnetized. Yet the earth is magnetized, with a north and a south magnetic pole. The magnetic field of the earth comes from an electromagnet, that is, from electrical currents flowing inside the liquid metal core.” — Exploratorium

994. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#992. Curious Cadet – May 26, 2014

Your interpretation that it was Spock Prime’s “experiment” is contradicted by this STiD line:

Scotty: “How about Starfleet confiscating my transwarp equation?”

and Starfleet couldn’t have confiscated it until they knew about it which would have been AFTER the battle with the Narada at Earth.

995. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#980. Keachick (Rose) – May 25, 2014

You know, going along your lines that it doesn’t necessarily have to eliminate ships, it occurs to me that if transwarp beaming is as efficient as the narrative suggests to me, then it could become a new locomotive engine to add to a starship.

In the first TV series, an android construct based on an alien scientist named, Miranda, “transported” the entire Enterprise many lightyears away.

996. Curious Cadet - May 26, 2014

@994 Disinvited,

As usual you have completely lost me. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Transwarp beaming did not exist in ST09 to beam from Titan to the Narada.

Transwarp beaming was confiscated from Scotty after he developed it sometime between the end of ST09 and STID, we don’t know when. The Enterprise transporters presumably did not have transwarp capability to be of any use on Nibiru. There is no justification that it was being employed at Marcus’ skunkworks since shuttles are used for routine transportation throughout Starfleet where transporters would have otherwise been used in the Prime universe. Hence, all of your conclusions are specious at best.

If you have some other point, then like I said, I’ve missed it.

997. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#996. Curious Cadet – May 26, 2014

Only that your interpretation of the events is not the only one:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transwarp_beaming

“There, Spock provided Scott with the equation for successfully achieving transwarp beaming, which, by the time Spock had traveled back in time, Scott had already perfected. Upon viewing the equation, Scott noted that it had never occurred to him to think of “space as the thing that was moving.” With this formula, Scott was able to beam himself and Kirk from Delta Vega to the USS Enterprise, which was traveling at high warp towards the Laurentian system. Later, Scott was able to use this technique again, to beam Kirk and Spock’s alternate reality-counterpart from the Enterprise, which was in orbit of Titan, to the Narada, which was orbiting Earth. (Star Trek) ” — Memory Alpha

To widen you perspective to other possibilities. Not saying this trumps your view. Only trying to get you to acknowledge that yours is not the only possible interpretation of the events that unfolded on screen.

“There is no justification that it was being employed at Marcus’ skunkworks since shuttles are used for routine transportation throughout Starfleet where transporters would have otherwise been used in the Prime universe. Hence, all of your conclusions are specious at best.” — Curious Cadet

I’m sorry but I find your assertion that Marcus had the technology but wouldn’t use it to further conceal his Jupiter skunkworks operation while leaving Khan free to do whatever wanted with it, equally specious.

You seem to be dismissing that Jupiter was a covert operation. The number of shuttles heading directly there in which Scotty merged was akin to painting “TOP SECRET BASE” in stunning laser light show big enough to be see with conventional optics from Earth.

998. dmduncan - May 26, 2014

820. Cygnus-X1 – May 23, 2014

“No, what you’re referencing is all attributable simply to the existence of a multiverse with infinitely many universes such that all possibilities that can happen do happen. There are several proposed ways to get to the infinite multiverse in physics. MWI/QM is the least compelling way in that it lacks any direct evidence.”

Well if you think that then you do not understand ST.09 OR why Bob himself says that MWI is the only theory by which the entire movie makes sense.

The MWI is clearly implied by the discussion on the bridge regarding the alternate reality created by Nero’s incursion, by Spock Prime’s warning to Kirk, AND by Spock Prime’s admission to the other Spock that he was misrepresenting the danger to Kirk (both of which themselves imply the avoidance of the Grandfather Paradox to which MWI is a solution). What the film is saying is that the Grandfather Paradox is avoided because the MWI is TRUE.

“Cosmic Inflation is a much more compelling and substantiated way to get to an infinite multiverse.”

But again, Cosmic Inflation is not relevant here. It’s off the point, given that you get to BOTH the same way.

The MWI/QM merely emerged as a more logical alternative to the weirdness implied by the Copenhagen Interpretation, as exemplified by the Schrodinger’s Cat experiment.

999. Ahmed - May 26, 2014

X-Men: Days of Future Past made over $302 M in just four days worldwide!

1000. Stephan - May 26, 2014

Juhuu! 1000!

Sorry for that. ;)

1001. Ahmed - May 26, 2014

@1000. Stephan

Bloody hell, I missed it by just one post !!! :)

1002. Stephan - May 26, 2014

1001. Ahmed

;)

Must seem like I have spend the whole day to wait and click in the right moment. ;)

1003. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#995. Disinvited – May 26, 2014

Correction the name was “Losira”:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/That_Which_Survives_%28episode%29

“Spock’s analysis proves crucial, for Spock discovers that the Enterprise has been put through a molecular transporter and then reassembled slightly out of phase”

1004. Ahmed - May 26, 2014

@1002. Stephan

Yup lol

1005. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#1001. Ahmed – May 26, 2014

Never count your posts until at least a few days later when all the ones in moderation shake loose.

1006. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#995. Disinvited – May 26, 2014

Correction: her name was Losira.

I have a post in moderation that explains further.

1007. gingerly - May 26, 2014

Congratulations, Bob Orci!!

Can I just say, thank you so very much for listening and actually doing something to correct the many issues I many other fans have had with the way Hollywood deals with diversity?

…I am particularly happy with everything you’ve done with Abbie Mills and the whole gang on Sleepy Hollow (Irving, Jenny, Jeremy, Crane and Katrina)

I spoke up many moons ago on this very site, and you literally put so much of what I and other fans of color who typically aren’t heard, said into practice and it’s paid off. :)

It is exceptional that that show actually has more people of color on the cast then TV’s default setting, but it’s not a plethora of stereotypes, but simply an awesome fantasy/horror show.

You listened and now you have a hit TV show on your hands in Sleepy Hollow. :)

As for Trek…

Bold new directions please.

Trust a good story with characters you care about and a narrative that makes sense.

Many fans talk about how glad they are that Sleepy Hollow characters make logical choices (secrets aren’t kept but told right away, and cops are called to the scene for back-up before madness goes down).

PLEASE, implement that in the next Trek.

Don’t have the characters do illogical things simply because “it looks cool” we’ll be able to tell.

What creates tension is the quality of the situation NOT the shininess of the explosion.

Give us something we don’t see coming. Surprise us with a narrative that takes unexpected twists and turns.

Give us that feeling of collective awe in exploration from our crew. That is Trek at its purest.

Give us characters interacting in unexpected ways. McCoy hanging out with Uhura or Marcus hanging out with Scotty.

Give us some maturity from our primary crew, especially Kirk. He’s earned it now.

Don’t be afraid to slow the pacing down to 80’s levels, at points, so we develop that plot, get invested and digest things.

Not everything has to whizzbang!

I want more of the alien-life forms aspect of Trek, please thanks and for the love of all that’s good and holy, no more Khan.

Thanks again for listening. :)

It’s going to sound pathetic, I actually cheered, had a mini-celebration, and near had a tear in my eye, when I saw Nicole Beharie was the co-star (not the background supporting character) on Sleepy Hollow.

I’m a scifi/fantasy fan, who is also a black girl.

Nicole is only the second black girl, I’ve seen star in an American sci-fi/fantasy genre TV show.

The other is Firefly, of course. :)

1008. Curious Cadet - May 26, 2014

@997. Disinvited,
“Only that your interpretation of the events is not the only one:”

I never said it was. It is the most consistent with what we see on screen. You’re really reaching to tie all these other things together.

And again you lost me with this passage from Memory Alpha you supply in support of your theory:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transwarp_beaming — “Later, Scott was able to use this technique again, to beam Kirk and Spock’s alternate reality-counterpart from the Enterprise, which was in orbit of Titan, to the Narada, which was orbiting Earth. (Star Trek) ”

Please show me where this happened in ST09. Also, Scott did not beam himself and Kirk to the Enterprise, Prime Spock did, so that’s the first problem with the Wiki entry. Transwarp beaming was perfected by Prime Scotty before Spock went back in time, so no; nobody was using transwarp beaming aside from Prime Spock in the first movie.

_____________
“I’m sorry but I find your assertion that Marcus had the technology but wouldn’t use it to further conceal his Jupiter skunkworks operation while leaving Khan free to do whatever wanted with it, equally specious.”

You’re conflating events that have no on screen support. There is nothing in the film that suggests Transwarp beaming is in regular operation, and nothing that says the use of shuttles (as seen liberally used throughout both films in lieu of transporters) has anything to do with the use, or lack thereof transwarp beaming. You’re grasping at straws with this power consumption issue, distance, detestability, and magnetic fields connection. None of these things have been shown consistently in either film, add to that, there are no guarantees anything works in the alt universe the way it is understood to work in the very well fleshed out Prime universe. God help the guy who tries to write Bob Orci’s Guide to the Enterprise.

______________
“The number of shuttles heading directly there in which Scotty merged was akin to painting “TOP SECRET BASE” in stunning laser light show big enough to be see with conventional optics from Earth.”

I have no idea what your point it here. They had to find a way to get Scotty in, and the filmmakers took the lazy way out and stole a scene from Star Wars, or Independence Day or whatever their influences were, never mind it makes no sense in the universe they created in Star Trek, and it certainly doesn’t prove transwarp beaming one way or the other. Now that’s specious.

1009. Curious Cadet - May 26, 2014

@997. Disinvited, MORE^^^^

And maybe you’re getting hung up on whether I believe Marcus was using transwarp beaming, or not. Maybe he was, who knows. But again, whether he was using transwarp beaming, or conventional transporter technology via relay stations proves nothing vis-a-vis other attributes of transwarp beaming, because we know NOTHING about how technology in this universe functions.

1010. CsMisi - May 26, 2014

I really don’t get some people. First of all Star Trek is sci-fi = science fiction. Some of you don’t get the fiction part as I see … Too bad.
From my point of view Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness could be well plausible, if we see that they are set 250 years in the future. I would like to point out where was the world in the 18th century and please explain every marvel of the 21st century to an 18th century man. Explain LED TV’s, iPhone’s, Lamborghini’s, rocket’s, Moon travel, Mars explorers, Voyager 1-2, galaxies, quasars, gamma ray bursts, exo-planets, planes etc. etc. etc. I hope you all see my point, that some tech could well exists without explanation with today’s knowledge. Go, enjoy the movies. I have accepted, that Nero’s interference has changed the timeline, get the technology develop even faster. 25 years is a long time too, just go and see what happened since 1990 …

1011. Curious Cadet - May 26, 2014

@1009. CsMisi,
“I hope you all see my point, that some tech could well exists without explanation with today’s knowledge.”

I think you’ve missed the point as well, that introducing some fantastical technologies get in the way of telling good stories. Don’t miss the forest for the trees.

For instance … let’s say an author in the 18th century was telling the story of a future society, and put his hero in peril, but he imagined a small device that allowed the hero to contact anybody in the world without physical connection, and they would arrive and save him. Perhaps the readers might wonder at this magical concept, and magical it would be, almost unbelievable in fact. But imagine that author continued on to write a series of future books, and every time the hero got into trouble, he produced the magical device and was saved. Soon, even audiences of the time might decide it was boring, where’s the drama and suspense if you know the hero will always have this particular out. Or perhaps, they would reject the first book as a whole because the concept is just too unbelievable. So the author mixes it up and has to come up with reasons the magical communication device won’t work next time, but he has to keep coming up with new reasons so the audience won’t get bored by the predictability of malfunction. And likewise, sometimes the device has to work so it won’t be predictably broken.

Now let’s jump ahead to Star Trek. All of the original technology they have created is mostly fantastical to us as it is, and most of it has the capability to save the heroes unlike we have today. And for 50 years Star Trek has had to walk a tight rope to balance the use of that technology and crafting an engaging, unpredictable, yet believable story. Now Abrams comes along and decides to add a whole bunch of new fantastical technology to the Trek universe without considering the consequences and imbalance it will cause with future storytelling. What seems cool and exciting in the moment, becomes a lead weight tied around the leg of good storytelling, some of which is almost too unbelievable to accept. That’s really at issue here, not whether some of us lack the ability to imagine fantastical future technology that we can’t understand today.

1012. Keachick (Rose) - May 26, 2014

Prime Spock remained on Delta Vega with Keenser, because there were only two transporter pads on the shuttle. Somehow prime Spock and nuScotty together were able to use the primeScotty’s transwarp beaming computations to allow the shuttle’s standard transporter technology (it seems they were able to modify the present tech to allow the new transwarp beaming tech to work). Kirk and Scotty beamed aboard the Enterprise while it was at warp. Touch and go business.

Prime Spock no doubt wondered if, by using the “new” transporter tech, he could beam himself and Keenser back to earth from Delta Vega. Neither planets were going at warp speed, unlike the Enterprise. Whether he managed to do that was not shown or alluded to. However, by the end of ST09, both prime Spock and presumably Keenser were safely back on earth. Getting prime Spock back to earth could have been achieved using more conventional modes of transportation.

I think it is more safe to say that the transwarp beaming calculations were confiscated from prime Spock and it is also possible that nuScotty did not get to see and study what his prime counterpart’s solution was and how he reached it, at all after this, let alone in any detail. Just saying that he realized that it was space that was moving would not have necessarily provided him with the correct solution either, but would have taken him in the right direction.

On the other hand, Khan did have that time. Whether or not, Khan had legal access or not, is beside the point here.

1013. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

# 1008. Curious Cadet – May 26, 2014

“You’re conflating events that have no on screen support. There is nothing in the film that suggests Transwarp beaming is in regular operation” — Curious Cadet

In that universe’s Mr. Scott’s own words “I told him that I could not only beam a grapefruit from one planet to the adjacent planet in the same system, which is easy by the way, I could do it with a life form.”

I interpret his “which is easy by the way” to mean cargo transport between planets in adjacent orbits via conventional alttransporters is easy but they are not capable of doing so with life forms. Ergo, the only way Scotty could transport two life forms from the Enterprise in position above the Saturnian moon, Titan, to a ship orbiting Earth is via some novel transporting method.

The only other interpretation I see is that transwarp transporting of cargo between adjacent planet’s was easy before Prime Spock showed up which runs counter to your contention that transwarp transporting didn’t exist prior.

I think I see your position on the first transwarp transport in the aU.

I recall Scotty doing things while looking at the equation Spock entered into the shuttle’s console while K&S chewed the fat and then interrupting K&S with “Aye laddie…” when everything was ready.

But you are contending Spock modified it right then and there when he entered it without Scott’s help.

Back to STiD, if those relay stations exist as you speculate (We note there is no on screen evidence they do.) I think that would mean Marcus was more than likely using them. Khan, all by his lonesome, couldn’t cause them to spring into being.

My point being Marcus inconsistently uses the tools at his disposal. His plans often lack the elegant simplicity that can be found in rational thought.

And I agree there’s no definitive way to resolve how things work in the inconsistent altU.

1014. Keachick (Rose) - May 26, 2014

#1011 – So what you are saying is that the writers cannot show any advances to the technology that legitimately exists in this Star Trek universe 200+ years from now, because it might get in the way of good story telling.

I suppose that TV shows showing cops and others driving in the latest model vehicle with no hands cellphones in order to communicate with people and the vehicle is able to travel faster with automatic transmission is an unwarranted *conceit* because having this vehicle makes the capture/rescue etc more easily achieved, even at times *predictable* and so gets in the way of good story telling for then on. Oh, the implications…sigh…

Am I to infer from this is that what automatically makes for better story telling is if we show are our heroes driving heavier, more clumsy vehicles, which go at slower speeds and where the gear stick needs to be in constant use and where these vehicles are more likely to break down, because they are much bigger gas guzzlers than the cars of today?

The point is that no technology is perfect, whether it is an old car from the 1950s (which can also be a very reliable vehicle, given enough gas and regular maintenance), the latest 2014 vehicle with all the latest tech, a 23rd century starship with a warp core and transporters, or a later development of transportation devices which allow for individuals to be beamed onto a ship travelling at warp speed. Each type of technology I have mentioned all have their inherent problems, some more dangerous than others, and some just more damned annoying when they break down.

Stories told as a result of the breakdown of some form of technology have always been around and many are really good stories. Just because a fictional technology is shown that does not make sense to many now (and perhaps never will, because maybe the tech is truly fictional) does not mean that it cannot be the device used to tell a damned good story that show the various responses that people have to a situation provided by the use or unsuitability and/or breakdown of such tech.

You’re wrong – Curious Cadet and CygnusX1 and others – I do get what you are saying and I think it is the biggest conceit of all.

1015. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

# 1012. Keachick (Rose) – May 26, 2014

” Prime Spock remained on Delta Vega with Keenser, because there were only two transporter pads on the shuttle. Somehow prime Spock and nuScotty together were able to use the primeScotty’s transwarp beaming computations to allow the shuttle’s standard transporter technology (it seems they were able to modify the present tech…” — Keachick

Which reminds me to ask, why couldn’t Uhura and Sulu use their shuttle’s transporter to rescue Spock? They were already “line of sight”; whatever that means? Why’d it have to be the E? Didn’t they have other shuttles if theirs wasn’t up to transporting?

And I am sorry, that “line of sight” line makes no sense for a ship that operates 3 dimensionally and then some in space.

1016. Keachick (Rose) - May 26, 2014

“I interpret his “which is easy by the way” to mean cargo transport between planets in adjacent orbits via conventional alttransporters is easy but they are not capable of doing so with life forms. Ergo, the only way Scotty could transport two life forms from the Enterprise in position above the Saturnian moon, Titan, to a ship orbiting Earth is via some novel transporting method.

The only other interpretation I see is that transwarp transporting of cargo between adjacent planet’s was easy before Prime Spock showed up which runs counter to your contention that transwarp transporting didn’t exist prior.”

So what is this AUScotty doing on a grimey cold outpost then, if his calculations had already managed to give Starfleet a means of transporting cargo great distances via Scotty’s transwarp beaming device? Scotty said he had trouble convincing anybody that his hypotheses could work, including the notion of being able to transport a fruit from one planet to another. He was frustrated with Starfleet for their lack of vision, foresight etc. Then he decided to use Admiral Archer’s prized beagle (one could assume that one of the few in Starfleet supporting AUScotty’s research was the elderly Admiral Archer). Unfortunately, the dog got *lost*…A big Ooop – hence him being trundled off to a cold, inhospitable nowhere outpost with only Keenser and a tribble for company.

The other important factor is Kirk’s reaction when the young Scotty started talking about his theories, like transporting fruit from one planet to another “which is easy by the way”. Kirk had no idea who this Scotty was and looked at him as if Scotty was raving nuts. The only person who understood Scotty was the older prime Spock.

From Kirk’s expression, I think it is easy to assume that none of Scotty’s theories about more advanced ways that transporters could be used were necessarily even known about by a great many, let alone, some of the notions that this younger Scotty was working on, became actualities used by Starfleet. Kirk would have known if cargo was transported via TSWB (transwarp beaming). He didn’t.

1017. Keachick (Rose) - May 26, 2014

“Which reminds me to ask, why couldn’t Uhura and Sulu use their shuttle’s transporter to rescue Spock? They were already “line of sight”; whatever that means? Why’d it have to be the E? Didn’t they have other shuttles if theirs wasn’t up to transporting?”

The shuttle’s systems were being fried by the “heat” or otherwise and made non-functional. Sulu and Uhura had to leave the shuttle in order to save themselves. Spock had not planted the cold fusion device and set it to detonate. I guess there were other shuttle craft but the decision was taken to get Spock out the fastest and *safest* way possible, by using the much larger E and its transporters to get Spock aboard, using line of sight. The fact is – the film did say that there was too much interference as to make the transporters pretty unworkable and unreliable, especially if the Enterprise remained in orbit. I suppose they could have sent down a couple of shuttle craft, one as a backup, but then, there was a fear that it could be seen by the inhabitants.

The reality was that either a shuttlecraft or the E herself would get briefly seen by some of the inhabitants, unless everything went totally off with clockwork precision, but that did not happen. Frankly, fear that a pre-industrial people might see a strange ship come out of the sea and fly to the sky and then gone is hardly a reason not to do what they could to try to save these people, given that Starfleet and Enterprise had the technology that could render a volcano inert, at least for a time…It is also not a good reason not to try to save a crewman’s life.

1018. Anthony Thompson - May 26, 2014

Trekmovie: Are you going to do an article about the recently opened ‘Star Trek: The Exhibition’ in Minneapolis / St. Paul at the Mall of America? Whatever happened to news about all things Trek?

1019. Vultan - May 26, 2014

#1015

Putting aside the shuttle and line of sight for a moment, wouldn’t it have been easier to just stay in orbit and robotically send the device into the volcano? We pretty much have the tech to do that now (drones! probes! oh my!).

I guess in the future they’d rather just send in the foreign guy. ;-)

Really though, it would’ve been nice if the writers had worked on that whole sequence a little more—well, a lot more. Sure, a nice visual of the Enterprise rising out of water. Next time they just need to earn it… because as is… it doesn’t make a great deal of sense.

1020. Disinvited - May 26, 2014

#1016. Keachick (Rose) – May 26, 2014

If Kirk did have the look you describe, I don’t recall him giving what Scotty said any deep mathematical musing. I doubt he was giving Scotty’s utterings much of his concentration. Kirk was more than likely reacting to the general concept of a “cargo transporter” between planets. And if that is as preposterous as you say his facial expressions relate, then it argues that the Titan transport had to be something novel, at least as novel as Scotty retrieving two targets from different locations to the same transporter pad at the same time.

How about a compromise? Scotty didn’t get the whole interstellar aspect of his Primeself’s transwarp equations, but in understanding the clue about looking at space itself as moving, he figured out enough of his own altequations to get it to work using E’s transporters from Titan to Earth?

# 1017. Keachick (Rose) – May 26, 2014

“The fact is – the film did say that there was too much interference…” — Keachick (Rose)

To be precise it said there was too much “magnetic” interference which I have already shown via the Curie Point that science doesn’t support, i.e. as the temperature in the volcano rises, as depicted, any materials with a magnetic field would have said field erased thus lessening any “magnetic” interference not increasing it.

Frankly, there is more evidence for magnetic effects in the icy coldness of Saturn’s rings as suggested in STiD than 2009’s volcano magnetics.

And the smallness of a shuttle decreases the chance of being spotted, whereas the hugeness of the E practically guarantees it. If Kirk wanted to give any kind of service to the Prime Directive (and make his 1st officer “happy”) besides lip, he should have sent a couple of shuttles (Have them fly a stacked formation. If the bottom one closest to the volcano can’t lock on before getting overcome by heat, have the shuttle on top ready to transport immediately after the bottom one has to slip away.) whose transporter likely would have succeeded as science dictates the magnetic interference would have been practically non-existent in that heat.

Throw away question: Where are Spock’s STV’s rocket boots when he needs them?

1021. crazydaystrom - May 27, 2014

1020. Disinvited
“Throw away question: Where are Spock’s STV’s rocket boots when he needs them?”

He left them in the Prime Universe. He was in such a hurry he forgot to pack them.

1022. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

#1019. Vultan – May 26, 2014

Agreed.

However, in the Prime universe it does seem prior to the Kelvin incident, from our current time forward, mankind seemed to alternate between a love affair with AI and robotics and just as quickly abandonment of them.

Imagine what Kirk’s E computer AI might be like if NOMAD’s (launched in 2002 by an unidentified contemporary space agency) AI had caught on and survived WWIII?

Given Marcus’ grab from the past to advance the future attitude. I have to wonder if he might have pursued using what knowledge Khan might have had of NOMAD’s development in his previous era to track down a copy its original programming to “upgrade” Vengeance’s computers?

Just some fun speculation. I know no one wants to see another WHERE NOMAD HAS GONE BEFORE movie. Besides, NOMAD might never rendezvous with TanRu in the altuniverse and go anywhere.

1023. CsMisi - May 27, 2014

1011. Curious Cadet I don’t agree with those theories. Not everything has to be explained on-screen.
Like the “magic transporter”: Why would day use this magic transporters instead of space ships? I can see explanations, like Enterprise has a well know course, so they try to transport taking into account that course. But it has gone bad this way too as Scotty got into water and not in safe zone. Maybe Khan could transport to Qo’nos because he was already there, and new the precise coordinates. But transporting to unknown world is impossible because you don’t have the map to the unknown worlds so you could beam 1000 miles up in the air, or 3000 feet below water … And they could introduce a safeguard as explanation of why this isn’t used on a day to day basis: after 10 or 15 transports with this device you could die … Only because it wasn’t said on screen in the movie it doesn’t mean it is safe.
Or let’s try to resolve the Scotty and Prime Spock on Delta Vega: Prime Spock could very well know that this is risky, but there is no other choice, and they took a risk (which almost killed Scotty btw). What would have been a better solution? Let’s way to a fast ship and maybe we can catch up with the Enterprise before Earth is destroyed? Or what would have been a better solution?
Augmented blood could be explained why will not be used a second time as well. As Bob Orci is consultant to the ongoing Star Trek comics, I hope they will make a comic issue, where after a year Kirk has problems because of that blood, nearly dies and they decide that the miraculous augmented blood isn’t as safe in long term as it was thought …
I really don’t think everything can be explained on screen, and that some of the “miracles” could be cleared up on the future of the franchise.

As for the miracle device: many Star Trek episodes had miracle resolutions, in every single series … So this isn’t like Star Trek is touching the miracle plot for the first time …

1024. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

# 1023. CsMisi – May 27, 2014

” Like the “magic transporter”: Why would day use this magic transporters instead of space ships?” — CsMisi

I contend it doesn’t have to be an either/or.

In the episode, THAT WHICH SURVIVES, the Losira automate was able to “transport” the Enterprise 900 light years away from her artificial planet using her molecular transporter.

Why not nudge the tech to have transwarp transporters onboard “transport” the starships around the galaxy? It is still the best strategy when exploring strange new worlds to do so safely making observations from an orbiting platform before transporting away teams to a planet’s surface.

And these starships can still have warp drive much as the current warp ships have impulse engines so that the captain can use whatever means of propulsion best fits the situation.

1025. Khan 2.0 - May 27, 2014

Empire magazine have done a movie list poll (greatest 301 movies of all time)
http://www.empireonline.com/301/

(dunno if anyone recalls I posted about it here #16:
http://trekmovie.com/2014/04/04/bye-bye-robot-releases-new-tng-movie-posters/ )

anyway results are in:

STID made it to #245
http://www.empireonline.com/301/list.asp?page=6

ST09 at #188
http://www.empireonline.com/301/list.asp?page=11

but (drumroll please…) TWOK at #89!!
http://www.empireonline.com/301/list.asp?page=21

what a result!

thanks to everyone who voted

1026. Mike Barnett - May 27, 2014

1018. Anthony Thompson – May 26, 2014
“Trekmovie: Are you going to do an article about the recently opened ‘Star Trek: The Exhibition’ in Minneapolis / St. Paul at the Mall of America? Whatever happened to news about all things Trek?”

Trekmovie has been on life support for the last year because the site owner has been absent. There are a few great volunteers that are doing their best by keeping things going until Anthony Pascale returns.

I’m not sure if Star Trek: The Exhibition warrants an article on Trekmovie since it’s a travelling exhibit and it’s been in a few other cities before MSP. I live in Bloomington MN, site of the Mall of America, and I haven’t heard much news about the exhibit [Kind of like the upcoming Star Trek 3 Director. Sorry Bob Orci! ;-) ]

Here’s a link to it if anyone is interested:
http://www.mallofamerica.com/attractions/view/star-trek-the-exhibition

Of course I’ll have to go see it so that I can get a photo of myself sitting in the captain’s chair on the classic bridge!!

1027. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 27, 2014

If you Treanswarp to Kronos, are you not traveling a vast distance faster than light, and even fast than Warp?

Are you not also traveling back in time?

Relativity speaking? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity

So the question for Scotty would have been, “Where did he go and, when?”
Or, am I wondering too much about this?

1028. Adolescent Nightmare - May 27, 2014

The comics already explained transwarp beaming and the limits it has. Ignoring the comics is not permitted because boborci oversees them.

1029. Dswynne - May 27, 2014

I don’t have a problem with the use of super blood. Just because it cures human illnesses, that doesn’t mean the serum derived from Khan’s blood will cure alien diseases. Remember, Khan and company were augmented based upon human science, from 300 years prior to the events of STiD. And besides, check up on the transhumanism movement. People within that movement are already advocating human enhancements across the board anyway, so, whose to say that 23rd century humans won’t possess the physiology of a Khan anyway? Relax…

1030. Dswynne - May 27, 2014

Oh, one more thing. Check out the ‘Halo’ video game series, which touches upon the need to augment humanity for deep space travel. In fact, the twist is that the augmentation in humans, via the Spartan program, is not an enhancement, but rather a restoration of humanity’s true potential, lost thanks to alien intervention. Neat stuff.

1031. NuFan - May 27, 2014

1028.

Hi, AN. I think he wants a science lecture at the end of each scene because he wants the movie to bomb.

1032. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

Interesting:

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/we-look-at-paramounts-big-gamble-on-robert-orci-and-85774945062.html

“When Paramount held the first screening for “Star Trek Into Darkness,” Robert Orci was one of the people who showed up to introduce the film, and during the Q&A afterwards, it was immediately clear that Orci wanted to be the director of the next film in the series. He treated it as a joke, but it didn’t matter. The desire on his part was palpable, and I’m not remotely shocked to see that he’s now been confirmed as the director.

Orci and Kurtzman have, for the vast majority of their studio movies, been at the beck and call of someone else. Producers. Directors. Studio executives. And what I’ve noticed is that they seem to be the masters of movies that work in five minute segments but that rarely work as a coherent whole. To me, that suggests that they’re good at the basics of writing a scene or writing characters, but that they are so willing to incorporate every whim and fancy from anyone working above them in the production food chain that they lose sight of the big picture.” — Drew McWeeny, HitFix May 15, 2014

1033. Keachick (Rose) - May 27, 2014

I do think that a lot of people are looking at these issues in the wrong way. Yes, the obvious scientific gaffes made in STID and other Star Trek need to be reduced, eg the ones that Kayla Lacovino outlined in her article here just after STID’s release.

The opening scenes dealing with the crisis facing this newly discovered world of Nibiru were more about what the ethical/moral response of the Enterprise crew had to the situation they saw before them. It certainly would have been easier for everyone if there had been no interference at all (of any kind whether it is deemed scientifically valid or not) that affected Enterprise’s standard transporter systems. Yes, they could just beam the cold fusion device down into the core of the volcano and set to detonate at a particular time and none of the inhabitants get to see anything, other than the volcano stop erupting. However that would not have created any real ethical/moral dilemma for the captain and crew.

The fact that the Enterprise had to enter the planet’s atmosphere and hide underwater, while a shuttle craft had to get as close to the volcano as possible and winch Spock down with the device (because they thought beaming of anyone/anything was too risky, therefore not getting what needed to get done), meant that the likelihood of the inhabitants seeing something that the Prime Directive says that they shouldn’t, was greater.

What’s more, they had a technology that could render a volcano inert (for a certain period of time, at least…who knows how long?). Were they just going to sit and watch while much of this world go kablooey(?) while sensors took measurements… or were they going to attempt to prevent this from happening, because they had the means to do so and they were right there, when they could have just as easily been in a whole different sector of space?

And what about this “altering of destiny” and “playing God” that Pike screamed accusingly at Kirk and Spock later on? On any site that I have been on that has discussed these scenes, nobody questions the correctness of the accusations that Pike made. It is assumed that he was right in all that he said to both Kirk and Spock after the Nibiru incident.

Well, No – he was not right in every respect. He was right in calling out Kirk for describing the situation pertaining to Nibiru as “uneventful”. It was clearly anything but. Kirk should not have lied and he was rightly sanctioned for that.

Pike was NOT right when he accused them of “altering of destiny” and “playing God”. In order to say that a destiny (ie future) has been altered, you need to know what that future was to start with, and only God (however you imagine this God) knows that. Pike and Marcus had no more idea about what Nibiru’s destiny was supposed to be than Kirk or Spock had. Yet Pike etc presumed to call out Kirk and Spock for “altering destiny” and by doing so, put themselves in the position of “playing God”.

The only factor here is that the Enterprise was there when Nibiru was about to go into “meltdown” as it were. Aboard this ship were people, with the technology and know-how and having certain beliefs which guided their actions. Could not this be *destiny* – the fact that the Enterprise was there and not somewhere else?

The science and tech has always been a bit “out there” and shakey, according to many. Why wouldn’t it be? Star Trek is trying to tell stories about a future 200+ years from now, when many discoveries have been made that have not occurred yet now and may never happen.

Concentrate of what the characters are saying and doing, not the *science*!

1034. Adolescent Nightmare - May 27, 2014

Hey boborci. Yahoo called you Robert again.

1035. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

#1034. Adolescent Nightmare – May 27, 2014

If only Paramount would put out a proper press release, then they could spell his name correctly while calling him “the noted director from Italian cinema”. LOL

1036. Marja - May 27, 2014

1015 Disinvited, Nowhere is it shown or stated that the AUshuttles have transporters. They lowered Spock into the volcano on a cable, which snapped as they tried to bring him back up. The shuttle was extremely unstable; that is why the cable snapped and that is why they had to leave the scene, ditch the shuttle, and swim to Enterprise.

Re Yr #1020, again, I don’t think the shuttles are equipped with transporters. Now if the stacked shuttles had each had a Vulcan fishing lure, they might have been able to get him out.

And LOL, “Where Nomad has Gone Before” — that’s what they should’ve called ST:TMP ….
——————————————————————————————————
1019 Vultan, the device had to be out of the magma to work. If they had beamed it down, they couldn’t know exactly where it would land, while Spock, on a cable, would be able to aim himself toward an “island” of rock among the magma. He was lucky when the cable broke that he landed on rock instead of getting steamed like a mussel.

I think the basic question of “why did they put Spock inside the volcano?” is “because JJ thought it would look neat.” And it did, cinematically it was a beautiful visual.

1037. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

# 1036. Marja – May 27, 2014

“Nowhere is it shown or stated that the AUshuttles have transporters.” — Marja

Oh yes they did. Take a look at the Ice Station Vega scene again. That thing with the wonky emitters that Scotty was talking about was, in fact, an AU Shuttle and they used its standard Transporter modified by Mr. Scott’s transwarp transporter equation to beam onto the E from Vega.

1038. Keachick (Rose) - May 27, 2014

Yes, I don’t think that in TOS time (prime or AU) the shuttlecrafts had transporters. By the time TNG came around, the shuttlecrafts were equipped with one or two transporter pads. The shuttlecrafts were used as an alternative to transporters or additional to.

Yes, Spock needed to be quite precise as to where he placed the device, in order for the detonation to have maximum effect. Also, it looked visually exciting, intense and beautiful.

It was also about what my post #1033 talked about. At least, that’s how I interpreted those scenes and the ones that followed.

1039. Keachick (Rose) - May 27, 2014

#1037 – Oh, that’s right. The AU shuttles did have transporters…but that’s beside the point, because the transporters were not reliable because of Nibiru’s atmosphere.

1040. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

# 1039. Keachick (Rose) – May 27, 2014

“Oh, that’s right. The AU shuttles did have transporters…but that’s beside the point, because the transporters were not reliable because of Nibiru’s” — Keachick (Rose

You are confusing the ionoshpere which exists on the upper most edge of the atmosphere in space with the whole atmosphere. A Shuttle flying well below the ionoshphere in the atmosphere near the volcano would not experience any interference from it. This is exemplified by the E, itself, going well below it to get around that peccadillo, as well.

1041. Ahmed - May 27, 2014

@1032. Disinvited

“it was immediately clear that Orci wanted to be the director of the next film in the series. He treated it as a joke, but it didn’t matter. The desire on his part was palpable, and I’m not remotely shocked to see that he’s now been confirmed as the director.”

If the Yahoo report is correct that Orci hinted at his desire to direct the 3rd movie a year ago, then the report by Devin Faraci about Orci scaring off other candidates during the search for a director might be true!

Interesting.

==================

Now Orci will be pretty much calling the shots. Bad Robot has serious control over Trek, and with JJ off in Star Wars land (and being famously unable to do two things at once – he couldn’t even get serious about STID until the press for Super 8 was over), Orci’s going to have free reign. He was already positioning himself as the boss of this film; sources tell me he’s been scaring off good directors for months by having meetings where he made it clear they’d be following his orders. And Orci has a visual template; Star Trek 3 is just going to look like the other two, except a little less artful.

http://badassdigest.com/2014/05/09/can-roberto-orci-make-the-best-star-trek-reboot-film/

1042. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 27, 2014

About my point above @ 1027.

I think in the Cage they used to call out the warp speed as a time factor.

Is there room enough in Trek for thinking about how science could explain a transporter sending someone three light years away, and not having them travel into the past three years?

How does Warp, the Transporters, time dilation and velocity all factor in?
And isn’t it a bit silly to be arguing about a cold fusion bomb while not discussing how Trek keeps all its time and star trekking straight.

This all might make a good read if anyone could explain how Trek gets away with all the Realativity issues when it comes to the application of different means of locomotion or teleportation.

1043. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

#1042. TrekMadeMeWonder – May 27, 2014

If I understand the concept of Warped space travel correctly, the ship exists in a warp bubble outside of normal space and so is not constrained by the flow of time in normal space. It then uses extremely strong gravimetric fields generated by the warp or transwarp engines to fold normal space such as the desired location in normal space approaches faster that it can traveling through normal space. When the ship reemerges into normal space and its destination, there is a moment for its systems to resync up with standard Universal Coordinated Time.

1044. boborci - May 27, 2014

1007 gingerly

thanks for watching!

1045. Keachick (Rose) - May 27, 2014

#1040 – OK. Thank you, Disinvited. I think that you are right and that’s what got me confused. I knew the problems had something to do with ions which prohibited the Enterprise from beaming anyone or anything to the planet below, which is why it had be on the surface, ie under the water.

(The thing is – I have on the IMDb STID message board and some keep saying how silly the writers were for not having Spock or the device beamed down from orbit and also confusing the use in these scenes of the standard transporters to the transwarp beaming transporter used in other scenes in both movies)

So they could use the transporters once the Enterprise was below the ionosphere, however the reason they did not beam Spock or the device was because he needed to be very precise as to where he placed the device, otherwise, once detonated, it may not have the maximum effect sought after. Spock refused to be brought back to the shuttle, even after he realized that he was on his own, because he wanted to complete the mission. After all, he was now down in the volcano where he needed to be.

Kirk took the decision to use the Enterprise to go beam Spock back and he only just made it back. Compared with saving the world and getting Spock back alive, Kirk saw that a few people seeing the E rise out of the ocean and speed off into the heavens as no big deal. Kirk was right – no big deal!

I could explain why I think he thought it was no big deal, but perhaps some of you might like to explain why it was no big deal. The answer is NOT because Kirk is an immature, reckless, impetuous jerk and whatever other derogatory names that people are so keen to label this young Kirk with. That has been such a LAZY answer to almost everything.

1046. Keachick (Rose) - May 27, 2014

I think that we, in NZ, are going to see Almost Human some time this year but I don’t know when. Of course, one of the big factors here is seeing kiwi Karl Urban do his thing in a US TV series. I have no idea what the series is like. Reviews have varied, but I am looking forward to seeing it. I see that IMDb star rating gives the series 4 out of 5 stars.

1047. Keachick (Rose) - May 27, 2014

#1041- I see you wasted no time, Ahmed. Let the insidious rumour mongering begin.

Sources say – yeah right. What about these so-called sources? And how would this Devin Faraci know this, “And Orci has a visual template; Star Trek 3 is just going to look like the other two, except a little less artful.” It would not be coming from Paramount, Bad Robot, Bob Orci or anyone associated with making this third film, unless they were looking to be fired and heavily fined for Breach of Contract.

Please – no more of this malicious rumour mongering shit! This is really a case of – if you can’t say something nice, then don’t say anything, especially when there are no facts in evidence to back up anything nasty that is said.

1048. Harry Ballz - May 27, 2014

Bob Orci

Isn’t it about that time where you provide us with your usual cryptic clue as to the storyline of the next movie?

It’s almost a tradition. You make the clue so vague and abstract that nobody can glean the answer, but it sure is fun to pick away at it.

C’mon, throw us a bone, big guy!

1049. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

#1048. Harry Ballz – May 27, 2014

I saw an interview with J.D. Payne where he said his partner and he had a confab with JJ on the story concept and they agreed the next sequel should explore strange new worlds.

It surprised me that JJ actually found the time to engage in that. Not sure what that portends.

I know you are skeptical but I think Bob has the chance to produce “something wonderful” to quote Arthur C. Clarke.

1050. Disinvited - May 27, 2014

#1041. Ahmed – May 27, 2014

That makes him sound like JR Ewing.

Things have been so lackluster in regards to Trek’s anniversary hype, I think I’d welcome the drama of Bob pulling a Dallas move for all the Bad Robot marbles just for the buzz it would produce about Trek.

1051. Harry Ballz - May 27, 2014

@1049

Thanks for the reassurance, Disinvited!

1052. Marja - May 28, 2014

1037 Disinvited, Are all the shuttles in the AU identical?

1053. Star Trek Nemesis blows, is the point - May 28, 2014

#1050 Disinvited – May 27, 2014. “Things have been so lackluster in regards to Trek’s anniversary hype…”

Why would there be any hype? Nobody outside of Star Trek fans really cares about the anniversary.

That aside, the Star Wars comparisons are hilarious. Get back to me when any one Star Trek movie has made as much as the original Star Wars film.

Also, to those who say Nemesis is better than nuTrek, and then saying that someone who thinks that way should stop the revisionist history – no, revisionist history is what you’re engaging in. That movie was crap. Total crap. Stuart Baird was a terrible directing choice for that film.

1054. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

# 1052. Marja – May 28, 2014

“Disinvited, Are all the shuttles in the AU identical?” — Marja

Perhaps not, but given the size of the AU’s Enterprise shuttlebay and the decrepitness of the one shuttle at Vega, it would be shocking if only a few in the E shuttlebay had transporters. But then you only need one for the proper course of action on Nibiru.

Allow me to restate that: having proven that some AU shuttles have transporters, it would be shocking to find that on the flagship of the Federation, none of the shuttles in its voluminous shuttlebay had transporters.

1055. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

# 1053. Star Trek Nemesis blows, is the point – May 28, 2014

“Why would there be any hype? Nobody outside of Star Trek fans really cares about the anniversary.” — Star Trek Nemesis blows

Apparently, Creation Entertainment and CBS, which licensed it, do as they already opened and closed last month THE OFFICIAL STAR TREK CONVENTION which was advertised as “This year’s convention also celebrates the 50th anniversary year of Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry’s amazing legacy.”

” That aside, the Star Wars comparisons are hilarious. Get back to me when any one Star Trek movie has made as much as the original Star Wars film.” — Star Trek Nemesis blows

I think its comparing apples and oranges but since you asked, STiD only had a run of 17 weeks and took in $228,778,661 domestic which exceeded 1977’s STAR WARS seventeen week domestic total of $184,397,772.

“Stuart Baird was a terrible directing choice for that film.” — Star Trek Nemesis blows

Given his 2 previous efforts and the fact that plenty of the first series’ television directors were equally clueless about Trek but managed to make respectable episodes, I disagree. I place the blame on the cronyism that produced Nemesis’ wretched script and Paramount’s suits constantly seeking ways to short sheet its Trek movie productions.

My NEMESIS bona fides:

Based on its advertising campaign and trailers heralding its release, I boycotted its theater run. Never saw it.

To be fair to it, I have tried several times to watch it on free TV but have been unable, to date, to see it through to its final frame. Just can’t manage it.

My Bad Robot Trek bona fides:

Enjoyed the 2009 effort as a good B movie movie. Didn’t have much use for it as a Trek movie other than it proved my long debated with other fans contention that those iconic roles could be recast with credible actors and the universe wouldn’t implode on itself.

Had such low expectations going into STiD that apparently I experienced something different than a significant contingent of those going in with their exorbitant highs from 2009. Make no mistake, as a movie movie STiD is a bit of a mess. But I came away from it with a glimmer of something Bob promised he’d manage to get into it even though I was absolutely certain he’d fail. A small and yet not insignificant something that even the worst of the first series episodes possessed. Something that felt like Trek.

It’s not much to hang my hat on, but I choose to do it. You may well point out that the potential for failure is definitely there. But I feel that if Bob goes after the next installment passionately as seems indicated by his winning the director’s chair, that he just might deliver “something [Trek] wonderful”, and it’d be a sight better than what the bean counters at any Paramount (new or old) could come up with, given, as you say, that they don’t care about the anniversary.

1056. Lemingsworth Bint - May 28, 2014

Did this Drew McWeeny person really need to complain about his own failed screenwriting career in an article about Bob Orci becoming the king of all things Trek?

This is why fanboys have no credibility with Hollywood.

Well, that and the fact their computers will only allow them to post links to negativity. Weird virus there.

1057. Who cares - May 28, 2014

@1037. Perhaps the shuttle Scotty had on Delta Vega is the AU version of the long range warp shuttle Spock used to get to the Enterprise in TMP and therefore has equipment not on a standard shuttle? Just a thought.

1058. Silvereyes - May 28, 2014

1048 Harry

Do you remember maybe a year before the release of STID, Bob asked us on this board what was another name for the deflector dish? That set everybody wondering why he was asking, how the dish could be so important in the plot of the movie that he would bother to ask… That’s what he does. He just throws whatever out there and watches how the trekkies feel all implicated and fall over themselves trying to get their opinion in… Well, I only saw STID once from start to finish and it was on a crappy 1990’s TV in an Edmonton hotel, so I thankfully don’t really remember much, but I don’t think the deflector dish had anything to do with anything, did it?

Cheers my friend!

1059. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

History shows that the most famous person to complain of the “nattering nabobs of negativism”, one Spiro T. Agnew, resigned in disgrace from the vice presidency of the United States of America presaging the downfall of the Nixon Administration, and was later disbarred in his home state.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/may_2_1974/

Followers of the concept of Kharma claim it is most unwise to use negativity to attack negativity.

1060. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

#1058. Silvereyes – May 28, 2014

It was referenced in key bit of dialogue on how to get power restored:

Scotty: Someone has to hit the manual override.
[to Chekov]
Scotty: Uh…Laddy, there’s a switch.
Chekov: It’s behind the deflector dish. I’ll bridge the switch.

1061. Curious Cadet - May 28, 2014

@1054. Disinvited,
“having proven that some AU shuttles have transporters, it would be shocking to find that on the flagship of the Federation, none of the shuttles in its voluminous shuttlebay had transporters.”

Specious though it is, I am in FULL agreement here.

The Enterprise D carried shuttles with transporters, and since the technology of Alt Trek rivals that of 100 years in the future Prime Trek, I would be stunned to learn that The Alt Enterprise didn’t carry a single shuttle with a transporter.

I think the biggest problem Orci has with his version of Star Trek, is that the majority of the audience has seen Star Trek before.

This then is illustrative of the argument that Abrams Trek is complete reboot and has nothing to do with Prime Trek, other than Nimoy’s participation. And I would argue as I have been since Prime Spock arrived (as hinted at by by himself), that Nimoy is not playing the same Spock we were first introduced to in 1966, before all the time travel started. It changes nothing if old Spock came from some parallel universe in which perhaps he never died.

These unanswered questions harken back to 1966’s THE ENEMY WITHIN, in which for some inexplicable reason they didn’t bother to send a shuttle down to retrieve Sulu when the transporters were malfunctioning. Now it’s almost 50 years later, and writers are still creating problems that must be debated endlessly to resolve logically. How did they do it before the internet? I guess at conventions? In which case perhaps the arguments were better thought out and not spewed into debate piecemeal.

By the way, for all those clamoring for a return to the Prime Universe and pick up where Prime Spock’s departure left off … I wonder if they realize that Prime Scotty has already invented transwarp beaming and it will be in wide use in the Prime universe no doubt. Whatever people think about the Alt Universe being canon, Prime Spock IS canon, and has already contributed to a few major canon changes in the Prime universe, so indirectly Abrams Trek is changing the Prime universe too for better or worse.

1062. Bill Peters - May 28, 2014

1060. Disinvited and 1061. Curious Cadet I should point out that in TOS the Shuttles didn’t have Transporters, once again your trying to put something that was in TNG Into TOS, this is a an Alternative TOS Timeline.

1063. Who cares - May 28, 2014

@1061. The only people whose opinion on “canon or non-canon” matters are the owners of the franchise, in this case Paramount and CBS.

Fans do not decide what is or isn’t canon, never have, never will. The very concept that the fans get to make that decision is one of the most ridiculous conceits in the history of Trek fans.

1064. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

#1061. Curious Cadet – May 28, 2014

I am unclear as to what meaning you are applying to your usage of specious there, but it is beginning to dawn on me that you just enjoy saying I’m wrong even when you agree with me.

“I wonder if they realize that Prime Scotty has already invented transwarp beaming and it will be in wide use in the Prime universe no doubt. ” — Curious Cadet

Which is why I advocate taking the “in for a pound, in for a dollar” approach.

Unlike Transwarp engines, which we know Mr. Scott has a healthy disrespect for, transwarp beaming is all Scottys’ in both universes. The way to neuter the “they don’t need a ship” cries is for Scotty to make it new way to move the entire ship around as Losira did with her molecular transporter. Embrace it. Move ships around with it. Trek voyages continues.

The ships can still have warp drive just as warp ships have impulse engines.

Limitations can be built in as dramatically needed as this is the ground floor of a burgeoning treknology on the page.

1065. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

#1062. Bill Peters – May 28, 2014

Unfortunately, there is no “try” on our part, in the 2009 movie Scotty’s Federation Starfleet Shuttle, presumably the one he used to get to Ice Station Vega in the first place, had, at minimum, a two pad transporter and presumably a third as Kirk asked Prime Spock to leave with them.

#1063. Who cares – May 28, 2014

That’s a fine thing to assert, but as a matter of history that hard line never held fast. And it most certainly was true that in the beginning neither Desilu nor NBC had anything to do with Trek canon. NBC, if anything, tried to decimate it, with its memos but failed to hold sway.

And Uhura’s first name, for example, was not created by either Paramount or CBS.

1066. Who cares - May 28, 2014

@Disinvited. And Uhura’s first name was not canon until it was used in ST09, with the approval of Paramount and CBS.

Simple fact is that any number of fans can declare one of the movies (like STV) or series (like Enterprise) non-canon and it will never make them correct. Take Star Wars for example, for years Lucas had allowed the “Expanded Universe” material to be considered canon, he even declared the Force Unleashed games to be an official chapter of the Star Wars sags. This year the new owners of that franchise declared the entire expanded universe to be non-canon, and that is the final word on its status. The fans get no say, I sure as heck wouldn’t have discarded the whole thing, but I accept the decisions of the franchise owners because that is how it works.

1067. Danpaine - May 28, 2014

1046. Keachick (Rose) – May 27, 2014

I LOVED Almost Human. Wonderful new sci-fi. Innovative, immersive, good writing, great chemistry between the leads. You should enjoy it very much when it comes your way.

So, in their infinite wisdom, Fox of course cancels it after one season. What a waste.

Meanwhile that mindless reality-tv-crap keeps on flowing.

By The Way, I see the ball being dropped big-time regarding the 50th anniversary. Hope I’m wrong.

1068. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

#1066. Who cares – May 28, 2014

I think you miss my history invocation. Roddenberry was the initial keeper of Trek canon not corporate entities you and others would invoke. And even at that, it remained fluid versus toeing a hard line.

But perhaps it is better explained by the “official” line as it was 4 years ago?:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100628174255/http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/help/faqs/faq/676.html

“As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn’t a single voice or arbiter to decide. Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was accustomed to making statements about canon, but even he was known to change his mind.

In the publishing world, there used to be two exceptions to the novel rule: the Jeri Taylor- penned books “Mosaic” and “Pathways.” Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters and were to be considered as references by writers on the show. Now that the show is over, some of those events may never be incorporated into a live action format, so the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation.

With regard to the Animated Series, there are a few details from the episode “Yesteryear,” written by D.C. Fontana, that reveal biographical background on Spock and planet Vulcan. Details from this episode have been successfully incorporated into the canon of Star Trek (such as in “The Forge”) and now that the Animated Series is out on DVD, we hope that even more can make its way in!” — CBS

And here is proof that there are more things in heaven and canon than are dreamed of in your philosophy:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/canon.htm

1069. Bill Peters - May 28, 2014

Yea the one Scotty had had a Transporter, that doesn’t mean all Starfleet Shuttlecraft on the Big E have Transpoters.

Also funny that someone Mentioned ‘Yesteryear” from TAS, the Diolge In between Spock and his Father in 09 is actually taken from “yesteryear”

1070. Marja - May 28, 2014

Re: shuttles. The shuttle Spock Uhura and Sulu were on was small; the shuttle in which cadets were transported to Enterprise sat something like 24 people; the shuttle Kirk, Spock, Marcus and McCoy take to Enterprise looked to seat about 10. Shuttles differ in size/ seating capacity.

Sulu’s Uhura’s and Spock’s mission was to drop Spock and his mighty Ice Cube into the volcano via cable, and fetch him back up the same way. Why they anticipated no need for transporters is open to interpretation, probably a Dramatic Moment on the part of the writers and director.

The “Flagship” argument does not seem so relevant to me. In order to have as many shuttles onboard as possible to meet various functions, it seems only logical to have shuttles of different sizes and seating capacities.

1071. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

#1069. Bill Peters – May 28, 2014

All the shuttles don’t have to have transporters. All it takes is one in the altE’s extra large shuttle bay inventory to meet the parametric needs of Spock’s volcanic rescue with a smaller profile vessel as opposed to a starship..

#1070. Marja – May 28, 2014

and functional capabilities.

I suppose an alternate rescue could be effected via a shuttle equipped with a tractor beam.

FWIW, from Ex Astris Scientia’s canonical vetting of the 2009 movie:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/stxi_ships.htm#shuttles

Standard shuttle 1 General description
This widespread 23rd century shuttlecraft, in service at least from 2255 to 2258, is equipped with several seats. It has two engine pods on the top on either side, and one engine in the center of the rear wall.

Known shuttles
Bardeen 70172
Dimassa (01) 12091
(Name unknown) 78072
(Name unknown) NCC-1701/9

Annotations
1) These shuttles (called “Military Shuttles” on production sketches) are commonplace in the years 2255-2258. They belong to the complement of Starfleet Academy, of the Enterprise, of other starships and of the Delta Vega Outpost. There exist different interior layouts, with seats facing forward, facing inward, or with transporter pads.

2) The shuttle’s angular general shape is in the tradition of the good old Galileo. The pods may be only impulse engines or thrusters for atmospheric flight, but in case of Delta Vega this wouldn’t help a lot to leave the planet.

Class specifications
Length: approx. 12m

1072. Keachick (Rose) - May 28, 2014

One of the problems that has been debated here and elsewhere is the premise that since transwarp beaming technology (in its infancy) now exists in this AU universe, that it is automatically being used on ships like the Enterprise. Then come the questions as to why these new fandangled transporters can’t do this and that. Well, they are not – they are the standard transporters.

First, as explained by an understandably very upset and angry Scotty in the film, he had all his calculations etc confiscated so that not even he could properly study his counterpart’s computations. This new TSWB technology was never in general use in the movie.

What I keep reading is that somehow many people did not pay attention to what Scotty said, the fact that Section 31 does a lot of secret work/research, information of which is not ordinarily available to just any and all Starfleet members. However, these audiences have got angry and go on about “plot holes” etc, because they expect to see a standard transporter be able to what a TSWB device might do.

It is like someone who discovers that a new Lamborghini car has been made and then expects that standard Toyotas will do what this prototype Lamborghini is supposed to do. It seems not to matter that this new car is not yet available for sale and this has been clearly iterated.

1073. Bill Peters - May 28, 2014

I am hoping that Bob Orci puts more stuff in 2016 that hints at stuff from past Trek or do things like he did for the lines from ‘Yesteryear’ in 09.

1074. Bill Peters - May 28, 2014

Isn’t NCC-1701/9 the Degnation for ShuttleCraft Galileo

1075. Mike Barnett - May 28, 2014

I thought it was NCC-1701/7

1076. Disinvited - May 28, 2014

#1072. Keachick (Rose) – May 28, 2014

During our lifetimes and shortly before it, governments oftn try to suppress scientific papers in the name of “national security”. It rarely achieves its stated goal of preventing others from being able to use it (See:Khan using same) and almost always invariably flags that which was sought to be kept secret with a tag of “having been achieved” which is almost as bad as having the secret out as research entities in competing bodies now know to allocate resources in pursuit of its “rediscovery” as it now perceived as a line of inquiry without possibility of ending up a dead end, i.e. there will be a return on this investment.

Also, rarely does confiscating a discoverer’s “equation” put said discoverer’s mind at ease in regards to the verboten subject. Nothing about that act prevents him or her from dreaming up alternative methods (often superior) of filling in the gap – especially now that they KNOW it can be done.

Also keep in mind Starfleet couldn’t have confiscated Scotty’s equations prior to their knowing about them which means at the end of the 2009 movie with the E rising out of Titan’s atmosphere that Scotty was free to use anything that he dreamed up to that point about safely using transwarp beaming to save they day. He had and still has a big key to the puzzle, he now knows the correct way to look at it. Confiscating his equations won’t rob him of that proper outlook.

1077. Marja - May 28, 2014

As I said, the equation is in Scotty’s “noodle” and to rid him of it Starfleet would have to use inimical means.

He may need to experiment to get it just right again, but as you say, DisIn, he’s on the right heading to get there.

1078. Keachick (Rose) - May 29, 2014

Yes, I agree. I meant to qualify my comments by saying that at least the young Scotty, even though he had the final calculations solving the TWSB puzzle confiscated, had been put on the right track when he noted that it was space that was moving… I think that Scotty was more upset that he had trusted it to Starfleet’s safekeeping and had been let down by seeing it getting into the hands of a murdering terrorist and he using it in order to effect his escape.

I thought I had already done that in an earlier post – perhaps not…I have been commenting about the same topic on another site. I am also quite tired right now and still got son to pick up and it’s dark, cold and wet…

1079. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 29, 2014

I would be thinking that Scotty would be seriously re-evaluating his life and the cosmos after the Spock revelations of his “inventions” in ST09.

I mean what do you do now that you have apparently achieved a life-long dream, without ever having the experience of achieving that goal. It’s kinda like stealing and I think it would take the wind out of Scotty’s sails, just a bit.

But then again, I am sure he may be re-enthused knowing that there is so much more ahead of him as an engineer to create beyond the technical instrumentations and engineering. But then again he seemed to be able to create a Transwarp beaming device in ST09 – within just a few minutes!

So what is there left to do for Scotty in his carreer?

1080. Buzz Cagney - May 29, 2014

#1079 invent transparent aluminium. His crowning achievement. ;)

1081. Disinvited - May 29, 2014

#1079. TrekMadeMeWonder – May 29, 2014

ummm…I believe the character answered those questions already in the TNG episode featuring the Jenolan and the alien Dyson Sphere ending with Picard giving him a shiny new shuttle so that he could keep on keeping on.

1082. Phil - May 29, 2014

Oscar and Herbert haven’t been by in a while. You don’t suppose they were one in the same?

1083. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

998. dmduncan – May 26, 2014

Well if you think that then you do not understand ST.09 OR why Bob himself says that MWI is the only theory by which the entire movie makes sense.

The MWI is clearly implied by the discussion on the bridge regarding the alternate reality created by Nero’s incursion, by Spock Prime’s warning to Kirk, AND by Spock Prime’s admission to the other Spock that he was misrepresenting the danger to Kirk (both of which themselves imply the avoidance of the Grandfather Paradox to which MWI is a solution). What the film is saying is that the Grandfather Paradox is avoided because the MWI is TRUE.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. I think you’re confused regarding the various multiverse scenarios, of which MWI is but one. I’ll try to simplify it all…

If we are indeed living in a multiverse with infinitely many universes, then all things which can happen will happen in at least one of the universes (actually in infinitely many universes). Extending this statistical fact to Trek, all variations of the TOS backstory would have happened in at least one universe. Bob told us that BR Trek is premised upon an Alternate Universe in an infinite multiverse, in which Alt Universe certain events happened, namely the events in ST09 and STID. By the nature of infinite sets and a presumed infinite multiverse, every other possibility in Trekdom has also happened. For example, there’s a universe in which all of the events of ST09 occurred, except Kirk was wearing a red shirt the whole time for some reason. And so on…

The MWI is merely one scenario leading deductively to the conclusion of an infinite multiverse. The MWI was arrived at basically by reasoning that every possible quantum event is happening in some universe. Therefore, goes the reasoning, there are infinitely many of these universes, each filled with its own set of events. The MWI is one of several observations/deductions suggesting the existence of an infinite multiverse (or, at least an extremely large multiverse).

Cosmic Inflation has corollaries which also imply the existence of an infinite (or extremely large) multiverse). The value for Dark Energy is another aspect of the universe which has been interpreted to suggest the existence of an infinite (or extremely large) multiverse. The number of possible dimensions for cosmic string vibration is yet another.

There’s nothing in ST09 which specifically ties the Alt Universe upon which it is premised to the MWI as opposed to Cosmic Inflation or to any other argument, deduction, model or scenario leading to the conclusion of an infinite multiverse. We only came to know about the MWI as being related to ST09 because Bob told us, during pre-production of ST09, that the he’d premised the existence of BR Trek’s Alt Universe upon the MWI. That’s it. The relevance of the MWI with respect to ST09 was entirely extracurricular, meaning that there was nothing about it in the movie; just Bob talking about it outside of the movie.

Yes?

1084. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

1011. Curious Cadet – May 26, 2014

Well said.

1010. CsMisi – May 26, 2014

I really don’t get some people. First of all Star Trek is sci-fi = science fiction. Some of you don’t get the fiction part as I see … Too bad.

It’s not that we don’t get the fiction part. It’s that the fiction part is supposed to be premised upon and comprising science. Hence SCIENCE fiction as opposed to fantasy or just plain, nonspecific, general fiction. For example…

All life on Earth is based on carbon molecules. This is a scientifically derived fact. But, what if…there was life on planet ZAYBORR, and that life was based not on carbon molecules, but rather, on silicon molecules?

That’s a bit of fiction for you right there, but it’s based upon scientific research and hypothesis. There are exobiologists today who have a realistic belief that there might, in fact, be extra-terrestrial silicon-based life. It isn’t known to exist as yet, and might never be known to exist. It might be discovered at some point that silicon-based life is actually not possible. But, today, with our current body of knowledge, silicon-based life is a regarded by scientists as possible.

So, there you have one, small example of what science fiction means. Yes, it’s fiction. It doesn’t really exist. But, it’s premised upon things that do exist, the details of which are analyzed and a certain conceit or “what if” is then supposed thereupon. In this case, the “what if” is simply: instead of carbon for life, what if silicon?

It’s fiction, but it’s fiction that involves SCIENCE. That’s why it’s called science fiction, and that’s what Star Trek has been about since its inception.

1085. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

1041. Ahmed – May 27, 2014

Brutal treatment of Orci in that article, but still an interesting article.

1086. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

1043. Disinvited – May 27, 2014

Re: Warp technology…

I think the idea is…being that space is warped around massive objects (like planets and stars), nacelle engines artificially (at least, this is how it’s been hypothesized by physicists) warp the space in front of the space-faring vessel, such that the vessel traverses more space per distance traveled in the direction of motion than it would by traversing unwarped space. Basically, it’s like scrunching up a rug in front of you, and then walking across the scrunched-up rug. You traverse more rug in less time because it’s scrunched up, i.e. warped in a spatial dimension. I’m not exactly sure, though, if the warping effect is supposed to be into a 4th spatial dimension or only in the three spatial dimensions with which we are familiar. I’m not sure whether physicists are clear or unanimous on this point, either.

1087. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

1053. Star Trek Nemesis blows, is the point – May 28, 2014

Also, to those who say Nemesis is better than nuTrek…

Nobody says this.

From what I’ve seen, the only movies in contention for a ranking lower than Nemesis are Generations and STV. Take your pick.

1088. Disinvited - May 29, 2014

#1084. Cygnus-X1 – May 29, 2014

And yet, there’s something about the fact that in the twenty-one days that the article’s been up that this has yet to be addressed:

“If there is an ounce of ability in Roberto Orci it’s his time to shit or get off the pot – this is his moment, and if there’s every[sic] going to be a time to for Orci to prove that he’s not a witless, untalented hack of a stooge, this is it.” — Devin Faraci

that takes its edge off, just a bit; don’t you think?

1089. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

I don’t know what you mean by “takes its edge off.”

Faraci is obviously critical of Orci, but he’d also opening the door to BR Trek 3 and, to paraphrase Christopher Pike in ST09, challenging Orci to do better.

If BR Trek 3 is great, then we might reasonably conclude that the problems with the first two movies were related to JJ Abrams, D. Lindelof, et al.

If not, then not.

I found the “stenographer” point interesting. It seems to comport with the movies and the other bits of behind-the-scenes info that have trickled out about them.

1090. Disinvited - May 29, 2014

#1086. Cygnus-X1 – May 29, 2014

Actually around message now numbered 117, Oscar said it.

Of course, if your declaration was an estimation of the cachet that those saying it carry, then, never mind.

1091. Disinvited - May 29, 2014

#1088. Cygnus-X1 – May 29, 2014

I was speaking of the ungrammatical use of the word “every” for “ever” in leveling the criticism at a fellow writer of being an “untalented hack”.

If you are going to go for the jugular, you have to bring your “A” game. When you don’t, it takes the edge off.

1092. Ahmed - May 29, 2014

@ 1088. Cygnus-X1 – May 29, 2014

“I found the “stenographer” point interesting. It seems to comport with the movies and the other bits of behind-the-scenes info that have trickled out about them.”

There was an article on Forbes about O/K that agrees with that assessment indirectly.

===============

From Transformers to The Proposal, Orci and Kurtzman have proved that they know how to do the impossible: make movies that audiences like and studio heads love.

What executives, including DreamWorks’ Snider, really like about the pair is that they still think like TV producers–aware of every cent they are writing into their scripts. On Cowboys & Aliens, for example, DreamWorks had secured the rights to the comic book years ago but let them lapse because it couldn’t figure out how to make the movie work.

Orci and Kurtzman got the project moving by figuring out how they could produce the film without breaking the bank. For example, instead of an invading army of aliens, there’s a team of alien commandos. Fewer aliens equals a smaller budget.

“Instead of having a studio executive hack away at the story because of budget, you have people there who can write a very good solution to any problem,” says Snider.

http://www.forbes.com/2011/05/17/celebrity-100-11-roberto-orci-alex-kurtzman-films-secret-weapons.html

1093. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

1090. Disinvited – May 29, 2014

Ah, OK.

Also, whoever said “beck and call”

I don’t remember if it was you or that writer, but whoever it was…

That’s a definite no-no.

1094. Disinvited - May 29, 2014

#1092. Cygnus-X1 – May 29, 2014

It was the article’s author, Drew McWeeny.

1095. Cygnus-X1 - May 29, 2014

1093. Disinvited – May 29, 2014

Yeah, if you’re making that kind of mistake, you’ve no business writing an article for public consumption.

1096. Ahmed - May 29, 2014

Drew McWeeny was also mistaken when he said that O/K are:

“the masters of movies that work in five minute segments but that rarely work as a coherent whole.”

Five minute!! it is more like 90 second segments.

1097. dmduncan - May 29, 2014

1083. Cygnus-X1 – May 29, 2014

There’s nothing in ST09 which specifically ties the Alt Universe upon which it is premised to the MWI as opposed to Cosmic Inflation or to any other argument, deduction, model or scenario leading to the conclusion of an infinite multiverse. We only came to know about the MWI as being related to ST09 because Bob told us, during pre-production of ST09, that the he’d premised the existence of BR Trek’s Alt Universe upon the MWI. That’s it. The relevance of the MWI with respect to ST09 was entirely extracurricular, meaning that there was nothing about it in the movie; just Bob talking about it outside of the movie.

Yes?

***

No. Bob doesn’t have to use the term MWI in the movie anymore than he has use the phrase “Grandfather Paradox” in the movie, anymore than he has to use the word “anguish” in the movie to see the pain of the characters, anymore than he has to use the word “cocky” in the movie to show Kirk behaving that way. So when you say there was “nothing” about MWI in the movie…well…if by “nothing” you mean no verbal acknowledgement of it I would agree, but I would still challenge the assumption that only what is clearly and verbally stated is “in” the movie, since ideas can be equally well represented by a series of events and sentences about them as opposed to simple proper nouns naming the things you are trying to find.

The question is can you make reasonable inferences from the action and dialogue that correctly match your perception of what the writers are doing, to their intent?

The answer is yes.

When, during the bridge discussion, Spock references Nero’s incursion as leading to an entirely new chain of events, that is one direct piece of evidence that Nero’s incursion has CREATED an alternate timeline. That is MWI.

When Spock Prime warns Kirk that no one must know of his existence, he is creating a false impression in Kirk of danger that does not exist. Taken together where we learn the danger is non existent from Spock Prime himself when he meets his other self, and we again have a direct reference to the Grandfather Paradox to which MWI is one of the proposed solutions. In effect, there is no paradox because the two Spocks are not the same, they are from different universes, so that if the older should kill the younger, no paradox would result.

That’s not only MWI, but MWI as it relates to the Grandfather Paradox. Now that is not mentioned as such in the film, but to anyone who has studied the MWI solution to the Grandfather Paradox, what they are doing should be recognizable.

So Bob’s intent was clear apart from his confirmation of that intent.

Whether you accurately grasped his intent is another matter and will differ with individuals. But it wasn’t an accident that I saw it. I saw it because of my familiarity with the ideas he was writing into the story regardless of whether he called them the names I would have been looking for, or not.

Those things came out in the story for me to see because those are the things he had in his mind when he was writing it.

The sort of multiverse you are referencing is not the best way of explaining what we saw and heard in the movie. But MWI is.

1098. Who cares - May 29, 2014

I don’t know if this is a good thing or not, but I am willing to wait and see. Link

http://io9.com/roland-emmerich-is-rebooting-stargate-with-a-movie-tril-1583557171

1099. Captain Slow - May 30, 2014

@ 1098 Who cares

You know the sound the Excelsior made when Scotty sabotaged it? That’s what my brain is doing right now. I’ve been wanting a Stargate reboot ever since Atlantis ended, but not with Emmerich. They will probably turn it into a shallow disaster movie with none of what made the series so good.

1100. Cygnus-X1 - May 30, 2014

1097. dmduncan – May 29, 2014

When, during the bridge discussion, Spock references Nero’s incursion as leading to an entirely new chain of events, that is one direct piece of evidence that Nero’s incursion has CREATED an alternate timeline. That is MWI.

I’m not sure about this. Those 30 seconds of dialogue might be equally appropriate in other scenarios comprising linear time in a multiverse. Alt Spock there is basically just saying, “Nero has changed our future from what it would have been without Nero.” But, wouldn’t this be equally true if Nero had gone through a wormhole into an alternate “bubble” universe with linear time in the Cosmic Inflation scenario? Or into an alternate “brane” universe? It’s really just the idea of Nero going from one universe into another in which time is linear that’s being referenced, not necessarily that the mechanism for the incursion is related to the universal wave function.

“Chain of incidents” just refers to linear time. If you drove over to my place right now, and a few hours from now there was a knock on my door, that would be a different “chain of incidents” than the one in which you never came over. And certainly, I am not expecting the you-coming-over chain of incidents as I sit here typing this. And then if you and I go out boozing and I’m late to work tomorrow, I might well characterize the situation as you having “created an entire new chain of incidents that could not have been anticipated by me prior to your incursion into my life.” It seems like it’s really just the concept of linear time being referenced and not necessarily the universal wave function playing out in linear time wherein each event that would have collapsed is instead occurring in an alternate universe which the very occurrence of the event somehow creates.

But, OK. Perhaps Alt Spock using the phrase “chain of incidents” is enough to tip the scale in favor of the MWI over the other scenarios, if you’re looking for it. That particular sort phrasing (also “branching”) is more associated with MWI jargon.

When Spock Prime warns Kirk that no one must know of his existence, he is creating a false impression in Kirk of danger that does not exist. Taken together where we learn the danger is non existent from Spock Prime himself when he meets his other self, and we again have a direct reference to the Grandfather Paradox to which MWI is one of the proposed solutions. In effect, there is no paradox because the two Spocks are not the same, they are from different universes, so that if the older should kill the younger, no paradox would result.

But, this bit is not dispositive of the MWI over other multiverse scenarios.

The Grandfather Paradox would likewise be a non-issue in a Cosmic Inflation “bubble” universe and in a “brane” universe. Any scenario involving a person traveling from one universe into another would obviate the Grandfather Paradox.

So, a qualified agreement on the first point, but not on the second.

1101. Cygnus-X1 - May 30, 2014

P.S.

And the fact that we only got a hurried 30 seconds about the physical phenomenon goes to my point. The existence of a multiverse is a mind-blowing thing! The MWI, Cosmic Inflation and Brane scenarios are also likewise mind-blowing! I’m not suggesting that the characters should have stood there giving us a brief tutorial in modern physics, but there are other things that could have been remarked about with respect to what was going on that would have made us think and that could have expanded our minds a bit, certainly if we were totally unfamiliar with the three aforementioned multiverse scenarios. They could have inspired a new generation of physicists with another minute about the phenomenon, the related possibilities, their impact upon the lives of the characters, etc…explaining and expounding upon it a bit. Instead they just threw in a quick lip-service as with everything else…yada yada “new chain of incidents…alternate reality”…yada yada “family”…. The BR Trek movies give us mere, superficial gestures of themes and ideas as opposed to going deeper which, if you recall, is what Bob promised during pre-production that they’d be doing with STID.

1102. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2014

@1099. Captain Slow,
“They will probably turn it into a shallow disaster movie with none of what made the series so good.”

You can bet it will have a LOT more battles and action oriented scenes. I think the original Stargate movie holds up incredibly well, but I notice myself that the middle exposition section where they develop the characters in the old village does drag by today’s standards. I can almost guarantee we will end up knowing a lot less about all of the characters.

1103. Disinvited - May 30, 2014

#1099. Captain Slow – May 30, 2014

Excuse me, but that is the same illogic I’ve been confronted with since the television incarnation of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER.

It is one thing to express your desire to have your favored TV spinoff rebooted, but it is quite an irrational another sort of thing to wish ill will and visit all sorts of disaster upon the original producers and/or creators without which you absolutely would not have the thing whose lack of a reboot/return you lament.

Face it: it is a matter of historical fact that because of the first productions that these people were responsible for creating, something which you acknowledge as “wonderful” directly resulted. You absolutely would not have it to marvel over without the other. They are inseparable.

That these original creators are still around in the business to revisit their original creations is something unusual and marvelous in and of itself. That they are being given a chance to actually do so, amazing. Your dismissing of these efforts as eventually producing something shallow and lacking is not only impudent and disrespectful (Not only for the original production but for that which you regard as wonderful.), but flies in the face of logic and the lessons of history.

It is a non sequitur to erroneously draw the conclusion that your marvelous thing only derives its marvelousness from the complete and utter failure of someone else.

STARGATE: SG-1 did not exit, and both it and STARGATE:ATLANTIS did just fine.

The most elaborate BURNING MAN ritual for STARGATE:SG1 would have had absolutely no effect on STARGATE:INFINITY’s success or lack thereof.

All STARGATEs before it were removed and STARGATE:UNIVERSE still fizzled.

The only hint, that history gives, is that if BUFFY and STARGATE are revisited by some of the ones responsible for getting the originals made in the first place, then something wonderful may eventually result. Given that, I think it is worth the risk to let them go into production sans the moans and groans.

1104. Ahmed - May 30, 2014

==============================
‘Ant-Man’ Director Contenders Include Adam McKay, Ruben Fleischer

Marvel Studios is moving fast to make good on its promise to keep its July 17, 2015, release date for Ant-Man.

Sources say Rawson Thurber, Adam McKay and Ruben Fleischer are among a group of directors that are meeting with the studio to replace Edgar Wright, who abruptly exited the long-gestating project last week over creative differences

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ant-man-director-contenders-include-707976
==============================

How could they allow this news to be leaked? Marvel has no clue whatsoever about keeping a secret!

Poor Marvel, they need to learns from Paramount. The suits at Para never leaked the names of the other “contenders” for Trek 3 gig, this is how you run a tight operation.

1105. Disinvited - May 30, 2014

# 1104. Ahmed – May 30, 2014

” The suits at Para never leaked the names of the other “contenders” for Trek 3 gig, this is how you run a tight operation” — Ahmed

LOL. Try peddling that to Cornish and Orci.

1106. Who cares - May 30, 2014

@1104. When Wright decided to tweet about leaving Ant-Man it took the whole “secrecy” thing out of Disney/Marvel’s hands. It’s not their fault he has a twitter account and felt like sharing, maybe they should have told Joss Whedon and Tim Gunn not to make public statements, but since Wright and Joe Cornish (who was Wright’s co-writer on Ant-Man) decided to make it public what difference does it make. They will be fine, and so will the movie. I hear that Gunn is possibly being considered for Ant-Man now, since he has finished Guardians of the Galaxy.

1107. Who cares - May 30, 2014

PS. I mean its not like Ant-Man is the Highlander reboot that has been through 5 directors and one star without even leaving the script-writing phase.

1108. Ahmed - May 30, 2014

@1105. Disinvited

We know that Cornish was out since December, after that we didn’t hear anything about other contenders until May 9th when Deadline reported that Orci is the frontrunner. Variety then confirmed that he is indeed the director.

In all these reports that came out in just one month, we heard nothing about the other contenders. So, either Para is better at keeping secrets than the NSA or there were no real contenders!!

1109. I am not Herbert - May 30, 2014

Edgar Wright left Ant-Man?!? bummer… =(

1110. I am not Herbert - May 30, 2014

Today, in a series of historic votes, the U.S. House voted to prohibit the DEA from undermining state marijuana laws.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2014/05/series-historic-votes-us-house-prohibits-dea-undermining-state-medical-marijuana-and-he

1111. I am not Herbert - May 30, 2014

Flight MH370: mystery cargo continues to raise questions

Flight MH370: search crews were looking in the wrong place

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/flight-mh370/57641/flight-mh370-search-crews-were-looking-in-the-wrong-place

1112. I am not Herbert - May 30, 2014

Flight MH370: Scientists question methods and the politics of the search

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-scientists-question-methods-and-the-politics-of-the-mh370-search/story-fniztvne-1226928975742

1113. Disinvited - May 30, 2014

#1108. Ahmed – May 30, 2014

I recall JJ commenting on Webb and Cornish, and Deadline is the sponge right under Paramount’s leaks.

I think it is disingenuous to suggest JJ chose to comment on those names totally free of any Paramount desire to gauge the waters, or that Orci’s name got “sourced” from anywhere but Paramount.

1114. Ahmed - May 30, 2014

@1113. Disinvited

Abrams was responding to a question by HitFix regarding a rumor that Rupert Wyatt was being considered for Trek 3.

“He’s incredibly talented, and we’d be lucky to have someone as talented as Rupert. But there are things we’re focusing on right now before the director, which is just sort of the fundamentals of where the story is gonna go.”

That was back in September.

1115. Ahmed - May 30, 2014

The future is now, Trek tech are becoming real!

Researchers in the Netherlands take a step toward Star Trek like teleportation

http://dailydigestnews.com/2014/05/researchers-in-the-netherlands-take-a-step-toward-star-trek-like-teleportation/

Star Trek-style ‘tractor beam’ created at university
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-27636019

Microsoft Adding ‘Star Trek’-Like Translator to Skype
http://www.newsmax.com/scitech/skype-translation-language-microsoft/2014/05/28/id/573727/

1116. Captain Slow - May 30, 2014

@ 1103 Disinvited

My issue is that the director is someone famous for making shallow disaster movies. It could turn out to be good, and I certainly don’t wish him any ill will. I hope it all turns out well. This is probably the only hope for one of my favorite franchises. I’m hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

1117. Disinvited - May 30, 2014

#1114. Ahmed – May 30, 2014

Ok, from that and this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140310144454/http://latino-review.com/2013/08/exclusive-we-know-who-the-top-contender-is-to-direct-star-trek-3/

“I guess y’all wanna know about who might be directing STAR TREK 3 if it ever goes. Heard Joe Cornish BUT also heard he’s on a list of names.

I’m NOT saying Joe Cornish is the guy, but what I am saying is the he is definitely one of NUMEROUS contenders.” — from the tweets of elmayimbe (@elmayimbe) circa May 23, 2013

We can reconstruct Bob’s whack-a-vole [sic] directors list. Hardly seems as if Paramount’s “leaks” were successfully being plugged?

1118. gingerly - May 30, 2014

@boborci

You just made my day. :)

1119. Disinvited - May 30, 2014

#1116. Captain Slow – May 30, 2014

Thank you, for acknowledging that. LLAP

1120. Disinvited - May 30, 2014

Always assuredly suspected, but stunning to see the true source of the ambivalence towards Trek’s legacy:

http://cdn.ifoldsflip.com/files/aT0yMzIzMDUmcD0xJnY9MSZjbWQ9diZzaWc9YjZjMGM1YWU4OTQyMGYwNzc1NTMwOGJjMTVlZjkzZmY%253D/-w-1080-80.PNG

“The truth is because it was so important to the studio that we not angle this thing for existing fans. If we said it was Khan, it would feel like you’ve really got to know what ‘Star Trek’ is about to see this movie. That would have been limiting.” — JJ Abrams

Also snippets of this:

http://www.thescifishow.com/2013/05/blog/interview-jj-abrams-talks-star-trek-into-darkness/

appear in articles throughout the web since StID’s release but nary a hint of the so much more behind them. Samples from the mouth of one JJ Abrams:

“Now you can just make your movie. That’s the thing that’s so crazy. There are so many opportunities, tools and resources that it’s unbelievable. The thing that you’re recording this conversation with can be used to make a movie. No, of course it’s not a Canon 5D or Red Cam but the fact is most everyone has access to some form of moviemaking so the beautiful answer now is – make your movie. There’s nothing stopping you. You could actually create the thing using off the shelf software and hardware. And I understand that not everyone can afford that equipment but it’s readily available. So whether it’s about renting or borrowing or owning and anyone it seems has within their reach the tools to access their movie. So I would say make your movie and distribute it to the world the second you’re finished with it.

It’s an amazing thing how many movies at Bad Robot we’ve seen and filmmakers we’ve met with simply because we saw their work. There’s a filmmaker we’re working with now from Germany, we saw his stuff online and talked to him and flew him in. He’s doing some work with us now. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed but my advice is follow your bliss. Make your movie. If it’s good it will get noticed.”

“It’s a weird thing, it’s not seen this way, there is something kind of romantic and comedic about Star Trek.”

“I, like you, was never really a Trek fan. I never really got it. It was a little boring to me, frankly. I don’t know why you didn’t like it, but I was just never interested in it. And I tried. Really. My friends loved it so I was like, ‘this time I’m going to get it’. And I’d sit down and watch an episode and be like ‘nope’, and I’d just go.

But the thing for me is that, I think at the core of it, the imperfection is the thing that makes me feel like I have a way in. I never had that swagger that Kirk had so I wasn’t him. I was never as smart or logical as Spock so I wasn’t him. I wasn’t as grumpy as Bones, I was never Sulu or whatever. I might have been Chekov but I didn’t feel it. I just never found my way in. So that imperfection – and you know, Chris Pine, and all the cast actually, but Chris and Zach at the centre – they’re so willing to be vulnerable and not have the answer and be terrified, and they’re never afraid to be seen as imperfect.

A lot of these handsome young actors want to protect their image and that actually can hurt their image sometimes because they’re not willing to be as vulnerable. So for me the thing that makes Chris and Zach so cool is their willingness to be uncool.”

1121. Who cares - May 30, 2014

@Captain Slow. All that may be true about Emmerich, but I would still like to see a Gao’uld mothership wipe out the White House, after all Emmerich does like to blow up the White House and he never got to in Stargate. :)

1122. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 30, 2014

1100. Cygnus-X1,

That might just have JJ re-thinking his marketing for the next Trek.

Star Trek – An Alternate time to come, in a galaxy with strange new worlds far, far away…

1123. dmduncan - May 30, 2014

1100. Cygnus-X1 – May 30, 2014

I’m not sure about this. Those 30 seconds of dialogue might be equally appropriate in other scenarios comprising linear time in a multiverse. Alt Spock there is basically just saying, “Nero has changed our future from what it would have been without Nero.” But, wouldn’t this be equally true if Nero had gone through a wormhole into an alternate “bubble” universe with linear time in the Cosmic Inflation scenario? Or into an alternate “brane” universe? It’s really just the idea of Nero going from one universe into another in which time is linear that’s being referenced, not necessarily that the mechanism for the incursion is related to the universal wave function.

***

No, because the alternate universe it would have been is the universe Spock left. Spock didn’t just slip sideways, he went back in time. Nero’s incursion created an alternate universe at the moment he entered it; he created a copy of the past that was identical to the one his own universe had until the moment he entered it.

You are focusing on the tiny parts that help your case, while ignoring the rest of the story that does not support it.

The “chain of incidents” began with the attack on the Kelvin, altering the flow of “history.”

The history Spock is referencing is the history we remember them having. You understand that? It’s Spock Prime’s history. it isn’t the history of an alternate bubbleverse where the same characters happen to have an edition of themselves.

There are at least three separate points that imply MWI. The alternate universe created by Nero, the alleged paradox, and the fallacy of the alleged paradox. Those are the things that tell us what Bob was thinking, even without MWI directly mentioned in the movie. And if I wanted to stretch it to a fourth thing, I would cite Spock Prime’s confusion in the cave about Kirk not being the captain, i.e., Spock’s failure to understand at that moment that the PAST was, in fact, different from the one he came from — including his attempt to “right” things by getting Kirk in command.

In some small way, Spock is trying to “fix” a universe that was altered by his own actions. He is trying to repair the “damage” he caused.

MWI in ST.09 is not “extracurricular” at all. It directed the plot.

1124. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2014

@1101. Cygnus-X1,

“And the fact that we only got a hurried 30 seconds about the physical phenomenon goes to my point. The existence of a multiverse is a mind-blowing thing!”

I recall reading Orci’s “official” statement about this being intentionally left ambiguous to allow casual audiences only familiar with the “Back to The Future” time travel model, to see the film that way (grandfather paradox and all), rather than try to educate them in quantum physics. For Star Trek fans who would understandably be alarmed by the erasure of the Prime universe, the film includes all the clues to make it clear this is another universe.

The question for me is now that Orci is in control, will he correct the mistakes of the previous two films, giving us a more in depth story with better science, and more developed characters; or will he alone, or in consort with a studio nervous about their first time director and forcing their involvement, give us more of the same, non-stop action, full of violence and fantastical conceits to make a thinly sketched out story and characters appeal to the masses?

1125. Mike Barnett - May 30, 2014

;-)
The Best Parody Films for Every Genre
http://www.hollywood.com/card/movies/57072627/the-best-parody-films-for-every-genre#233688/0

BEST SCI-FI PARODY: Galaxy Quest
We can’t wait for the ‘Galaxy Quest’ sequel, ‘Galaxy Quest inside Blackness.’

1126. Captain Slow - May 30, 2014

@ 1121 Who cares

There was a funny post on the Gateworld forum:

“it will be the the next generation of youngsters with kick ass attitudes saving the day from an alien invasion through the Stargate; which has been hidden under the White House, the recurring gate use inadvertently triggers a seismic calamity in the Earth’s crust”

1127. Marja - May 31, 2014

Oh my god, is anyone else praying that GeekNation changes its stupid patronizing GEEEEEEK logo? I hate having to page past it! Yecchh!
————————————————————————————————–
1124 Curious, will [Orci] correct the mistakes of the previous two films, giving us a more in depth story with better science, and more developed characters…?

THE HOPES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS REST ON YOU BOB ORCI. Please give us more Trek-ish Trek. I know you can do it, because I love the way you write the characters. More character interaction and less ACTION! PERIL! ‘SPLOSIONS! More science. Based on DMDuncan’s and Curious Cadet’s statements, I’d say you’ve got that down. For myself, I heard the dialogue on the bridge among the characters discussing “other versions of us” and was just fine with it. I sure liked it better than the ole’ Time Travel Paradox stuff — at least we got an alternate universe ….
——————————————————————————————————

1125 Mike B, actually a great Galaxy Quest 2 movie would be a parody of the Original Cast movies, when everyone’s 20 years older than in the previous movie …

Paging Tim Allen, Alan Rickman, Sigourney Weaver, Sam Rockwell, Darrell Mitchell, Tony Shalhoub and Missy Pyle….! And Enrico Colantone for a hilarious reprise of his alien guy with the helium voice :-)

1128. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1120. Disinvited – May 30, 2014

It’s pretty amazing, isn’t it? These are the people in charge of Trek.

“The truth is because it was so important to the studio that we not angle this thing for existing fans. If we said it was Khan, it would feel like you’ve really got to know what ‘Star Trek’ is about to see this movie. That would have been limiting.” — JJ Abrams

I mean, how much less appreciative of the people who supported Trek when it was going the way of the dodo—i.e. the fans—could they possibly be? It’s remarks like this one from Abrams that leave me puzzled as to why so many fans are still so happy and optimistic about the future of the franchise. Hey dummies: They’re flat-out telling you that these movies aren’t for you. In fact, it’s so important that these movies be regarded as not being for you that they went waaaaay out of their way to make sure that the general public didn’t get the idea that these movies were for you! They botched the marketing just to avoid the faintest appearance that these movies might be for Trek fans!

“I, like you, was never really a Trek fan. I never really got it. It was a little boring to me, frankly. I don’t know why you didn’t like it, but I was just never interested in it. And I tried. Really. My friends loved it so I was like, ‘this time I’m going to get it’. And I’d sit down and watch an episode and be like ‘nope’, and I’d just go. But the thing for me is that, I think at the core of it, the imperfection is the thing that makes me feel like I have a way in.

Yeah, but for JJ the “imperfections” about Star Trek are the things that made it characteristically Star Trek! hmm…I never liked that logical Vulcan character…too dull and boring. Let’s make him into an emotional train-wreck instead. And I don’t like all that brainy sci-fi…who wants to wonder at things and ponder the meaning of the story when you can be FEELING the whole time instead? Who says pandering to peoples’ emotions is always bad? People who think too much, that’s who. Let’s nix all that egg-head sci-fi and literary-theme stuff and make sure there’s plenty of tear-jerking at the beginning of the movie to get the audience emotionally invested. We’ll have somebody very likeable get killed, and then the audience will care about what happens in the rest of the movie and we can just rock their socks off with nonstop action and titillating visuals!

1129. Captain Slow - May 31, 2014

@ 1128 Cygnus-X1

I think it depends on your perspective. J.J. often says that it’s more for general audiences than fans while Bob Orci says that it’s for both. And as a fan I’m sure he would want to make a movie that the fans would like.

I wonder though, when J.J. says that his friends tried to get him to watch but it was too boring to him, so what episodes did he watch? I know he said once that after making the movies he went back and enjoyed TOS more after seeing different episodes. I hope the episodes that he liked more weren’t Spock’s Brain or The Way to Eden. Because most people when trying to interest someone in Star Trek will show them the classic episodes like COTEOF or The Doomsday Machine.

1130. Disinvited - May 31, 2014

Well let’s see what’s on CBS/Paramount’s mind today:

http://www.startrek.com/article/celebrating-the-30th-anniversary-of-star-trek-iii

Well, I suppose that’s something.

1131. Who cares - May 31, 2014

@Disinvited. Holy crap, how did I not know Maltz was Dan Fielding, I loved Night Court. Thanks Disinvited.

1132. Disinvited - May 31, 2014

#1129. Captain Slow – May 31, 2014

Yes, he did say that but the was missing piece was that it was a STUDIO mandate. It never occurred to me that the reason STID came and went without me being aware of it in my local theaters in the U.S. was not because of typical Paramount incompetence, but because they specifically targeted me in a successful antimarketing campaign to keep me from showing up for fear that I might appear with a Trek demeanor and/or accoutrements that might frighten off their REAL customers.

At first blink, it seems so ludicrous that any corporate entity could make something that they clearly plaster STAR TREK upon and actually think their REAL customers would be shocked that actual (What’s that scary word they use to boogify those fans? Oh yes.,,,) TREKKIES might show up. And yet, I can’t deny the effectiveness of their anticampaign as reflected in the Domestic hit STID took.

1133. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1123. dmduncan – May 30, 2014

OK, we’re getting a bit complicated now. Firstly, I’m not ignoring anything. I think the issue is that we have different understandings of the MWI. I’m going to reference some sources and make some comments about your interpretation of the MWI. If I get anything wrong, just cite some source explaining where I went wrong and I’ll learn something new.

No, because the alternate universe it would have been is the universe Spock left. Spock didn’t just slip sideways, he went back in time.

Yes. I agree. Spock Prime went back back to a previous point in time, in an alternate universe.

Nero’s incursion created an alternate universe at the moment he entered it; he created a copy of the past that was identical to the one his own universe had until the moment he entered it.

No. Nero and Spock were playing out their whole save Romulus storyline in the Prime Universe at a point in time that is FUTURE to the point in time where Nero entered the Alt Universe. In the MWI, universes branch off from previous universes at every possible quantum event. This process of branching off creates myriad universes, each with an alternative history of events from the others. The result is a multiverse littered with myriad universes, each differing to some degree—great or small—from each of the others (which is the same result in any infinite multiverse model—bubble or brane).

The process that you are describing as Nero creating or “branching off into” a new, alternate universe is what happens at every moment of a quantum event. The MWI portrayal of Nero branching off into another universe would not have involved a black hole. It would just be Nero doing what Nero does at every given moment, and at each of those moments, for every quantum event occurring, a new universe is branching off, each with its own version of Nero going about his business.

The whole black hole device in the movie implies only that Nero was traveling from one universe in the multiverse into another universe in the multiverse; it says nothing about whether those universes are bubble universes, brane universes or MWI universal wave function universes.

The following description comes from the Bryce Seligman DeWitt, Quantum Mechanics and Reality, Physics Today, 23(9) pp 30–40 (September 1970). He coined the term Many Worlds Interpretation:

Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual “world” (or “universe”). In lay terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large—perhaps infinite[2]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.

Here is my understanding of how this plays out. To keep it simple, let’s say that you and I are sitting in a room observing a quantum event—say, something like the double-slit experiment—which has 3 possible outcomes, call them Q1, Q2 and Q3. You and I both observe the occurrence of Q1. Then, you and I go to a bar for a drink.

There are two alternative histories or ways that the quantum event also played out, namely a history in which you and I saw Q2 happen and also a history in which you and I saw Q3 happen. Both of those alternative histories are still playing out in their own branches of universes, which, by now, have each given rise somehow to myriad further universes, each universe branching off from the one which preceded or gave rise to it.

The version of you and me which saw Q2 happen had the same history up to that point as the version of you and me which saw Q1 happen and the version of us which saw Q3 happen. We then somehow split off or branched off from the universes in which Q1 and Q3 happened and went on our merry way doing whatever we did in that universe after we observed the quantum event. Incidentally (no pun intended), the “somehow” herein is totally unknown and unsupported by any physical evidence.

But, let’s go back to the bar. You and I are sitting there chatting about how we saw Q1 happen and how cool it was, but wouldn’t it be even cooler if we could somehow redo that incident but this time see Q2 or Q3 happen instead of Q1. And then I say, But we can, mein freund! All we need is a wormhole connecting our universe at this point in time to the universes in which Q2 or Q3 happened, which was obviously in the past relative to us now. Lucky for us, I just so happen to have a little jar of Red Matter in my pocket (I never go anywhere without it, see) and voila we now have our wormhole! We go through it and arrive at the point in time in the universe where Q2 happened just as it’s happening. We’ve traveled back in time and into an alternate universe. But, then you say, Wait a minute…if this alternate universe that we’re now in is, in fact, a product of Cosmic Inflation and actually has nothing to do with MWI, would there be any telltale signs?

So, we look around, but don’t see any telltale signs because there aren’t any. The fact is that while we have traveled via a wormhole from one universe in the multiverse into another, nothing about our mode of travel or our voyage gives any indication about how those two universes formed. The premise of an infinite multiverse implies the existence of universes with all possible alternative histories, including universes in which Q1, Q2 and Q3 happened.

The “chain of incidents” began with the attack on the Kelvin, altering the flow of “history.”

OK. But this can just be a chain of incidents in linear time, i.e. a statement acknowledging causation.

The history Spock is referencing is the history we remember them having. You understand that? It’s Spock Prime’s history. it isn’t the history of an alternate bubbleverse where the same characters happen to have an edition of themselves.

Says you. This is just you interpreting the events ex post facto in terms of MWI. Given the dialogue and events in the movie, it could just as well have been Nero traveling from the Prime Universe into a bubble or brane universe with a very similar history, of which there might be infinitely many. Again, the MWI doesn’t require a black hole or worm hole for the branching off or creation of new universes. That the characters traveled through a black hole into an alternate universe says nothing about the mechanism or cosmological model by which that alternate universe was formed.

There are at least three separate points that imply MWI. The alternate universe created by Nero,

I disagree. MWI doesn’t create new universes via black holes and there’s nothing in the movie to suggest that Nero creates the Alt Universe by traveling through the black hole into it.

the alleged paradox, and the fallacy of the alleged paradox.

Definitely no. The “paradox” bits just tell us that the Alt Universe is, in fact, an another universe in a multiverse as opposed to the past in the Prime Universe.

And if I wanted to stretch it to a fourth thing, I would cite Spock Prime’s confusion in the cave about Kirk not being the captain, i.e., Spock’s failure to understand at that moment that the PAST was, in fact, different from the one he came from — including his attempt to “right” things by getting Kirk in command.

This is a bit confusing, not sure exactly what you mean here. But, it seems like the same sort of reasoning that Nero employed to seek vengeance by killing off the Federation in an alternate universe. It’s not actually the same people, but in the past that Nero’s killing off, but it doesn’t matter to him—they’re close enough, and the best that he can do to satisfy his thirst for vengeance (Also, Nero might not even understand that he’s in a different universe. All of these sort of issues would have been great to explore and make reference to in the movie). And for the same reason that Nero can feel hatred for the Alt people (assuming he knows he’s in an alt universe), Spock can feel compassion for the Alt people.

In some small way, Spock is trying to “fix” a universe that was altered by his own actions. He is trying to repair the “damage” he caused.

Sure, but this is no different from anyone trying to make up for his effects upon a civilization. Spock’s actions created the black hole allowing Nero to travel through it into the Alt Universe and cause all sorts of mayhem. Spock feels understandably responsible for it all. He’s a guy with a conscience.

MWI in ST.09 is not “extracurricular” at all. It directed the plot.

No, Nero wanting to kill innocent people and Spock wanting to stop him is all that you’re referring to. Neither of these motivations is shown in the movie to have anything to do with MWI.

To put this all simply, everything in ST09 that you’re trying to view as related to MWI could just as well be related to one of the other multiverse models. Any model entailing or allowing for an infinite multiverse would provide for universes containing every possible variation of the Trek characters and their backstories. In the movie, Nero travels through a black hole from one universe into another. Spock follows him. Nero adversely affects the lives of the people in the Alt Universe and Spock Prime wants to mitigate the damage. Let’s review the pertinent dialogue between Alt Spock and Alt Kirk:

ALT KIRK: But you say he’s from the future – knows what’s gonna happen? – then the logical thing is to be unpredictable!

This bit positions Kirk as speaking for the audience who doesn’t yet know that the events in the movie hitherto have taken place in an alternate universe as opposed to merely in the past but in the same universe. Most (if not all) time-travel movies up to this point have involved traveling back in time but within one’s own universe, which gives rise to the Grandfather Paradox. With this bit of dialogue Orci & Kurtzman were informing the audience that this movie is different from other time-travel movies, and that they shouldn’t assume that Nero knows what’s going to happen for the rest of the movie.

ALT SPOCK: You’re assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. The contrary, Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the U.S.S. Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.

Here, Spock is driving the point home by saying that the future that Nero comes from stems from a different past than the one represented by the events presently occurring in the movie. This line by Spock was designed to be ambiguous, so that it would make sense both to people who were thinking in terms of the old time-travel model, i.e. occurring in the past of the same universe, and to people who might raise the issue of the Grandfather Paradox. (I remember Bob saying this here at the time.) Though, I think the exchange favors too heavily those thinking in terms of the old time-travel model, and winds up being confusing to people thinking in terms of alternate universes.

1134. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1124. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2014

I recall reading Orci’s “official” statement about this being intentionally left ambiguous to allow casual audiences only familiar with the “Back to The Future” time travel model, to see the film that way (grandfather paradox and all),

Heh, I just made reference to that in a long ass response to dmduncan.

I think that intentional ambiguity about the time-travel mechanism has caused a fair bit of confusion.

1135. Ahmed - May 31, 2014

1132. Disinvited – May 31, 2014

“At first blink, it seems so ludicrous that any corporate entity could make something that they clearly plaster STAR TREK upon and actually think their REAL customers would be shocked that actual (What’s that scary word they use to boogify those fans? Oh yes.,,,) TREKKIES might show up. And yet, I can’t deny the effectiveness of their anticampaign as reflected in the Domestic hit STID took.”

Didn’t Bob mentions a “study” where it said that Trekkies are scaring off mainstream audience ?

==============

254. boborci – January 6, 2014

However, research indicates that the biggest deterrent to a general audience watching Trek are TREK FANS THEMSELVES!

http://trekmovie.com/2013/12/31/happy-new-year-from-trekmovie/
==============

So, the problem is NOT with the script or the marketing or anything related to the actual movie, it is with US, we are the problem!

1136. roy - May 31, 2014

As a viewer my only concern about Bob Orci in the director’s chair would be his lack of experience. If he had directed a couple of mainstream films or independants, maybe a few plays, I’d be more comfortable. To be fair if rumours are true and he makes a Trek film that is successful both commercially and artistically, in the Trek world, he’ll be in the company of Nicholas Meyer, Leonard Nimoy, Jonathan Frakes and JJ Abrams and none much experience in the director’s chairs in terms of films. Mr Nimoy directed a few tv episodes of Shatner’s hit show TJ Hooker and Mr Frakes had directed a handful of TNG tv episodes. If Mr Orci fails and Trek bombs on both fronts commerical and artistic, he’ll be lumbered in with legendary film maker Robert Wise, William Shatner and Stuart Bair.

1137. Disinvited - May 31, 2014

#1135. Ahmed – May 31, 2014

I think he was joking. I believe the popularity of CBS’ THE BIG BANG THEORY the world over, if anything, has removed that stigma, if it ever truly existed. In fact, I’d argue general audiences go to BR’s Trek movies and are disappointed when they don’t see something they can identify as a real life Sheldon and company in line.

Besides if it was real research why didn’t Bob provide a link or otherwise identify the research? He’s never been one to shy away from such.

But I’ll tell you what IS real: when you actively market against “undesirable trekkie elements”, your domestic haul takes a significant hit. I’d love to know what Paramount’s bean counters made of that.

1138. Disinvited - May 31, 2014

#1134. Cygnus-X1 – May 31, 2014

Not sure this adds anything to your discussion but FWIW the November 2007 version of their script:

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Trek.html

Seems to indicate that Spock Prime was actually planning conventional Prime Universe time travel via red matter black hole to get a second chance to stop the Supernova before it could destroy Romulus but Nero futzed it all up.

1139. dmduncan - May 31, 2014

1133. Cygnus-X1 – May 31, 2014

No. Nero and Spock were playing out their whole save Romulus storyline in the Prime Universe at a point in time that is FUTURE to the point in time where Nero entered the Alt Universe. In the MWI, universes branch off from previous universes at every possible quantum event. This process of branching off creates myriad universes, each with an alternative history of events from the others. The result is a multiverse littered with myriad universes, each differing to some degree—great or small—from each of the others (which is the same result in any infinite multiverse model—bubble or brane).

***

Yeah, sure, universes in MWI branch off at every moment where a different potential outcome is possible. I don’t know how many times I pointed that out on this site, how many times I pointed out that technically a narrative under that scenario is created by the writer by following the branches of his choice, or how many times I suggested a future movie to go deeper into that as a central part of the story.

But I (and I think this is Bob’s point as well) am talking about a movie in which MWI is represented as a key feature of the plot and the only theory that makes best sense of the movie, and you are talking about MWI independent of the movie and in ways that it was not represented as if that is the movie’s mistake rather than yours.

The movie does not contradict MWI the way you mention it, but it didn’t have to deal with that degree of resolution to tell that particular story.

You’re working too hard, man. ;-)

1140. Marja - May 31, 2014

1135, Well, just look at the Geek Nation logo, in the story above this one. Would the average teenaged guy [the audience they're trying to attract] want to be associated with such? Hellz I’m a Trekfan, and I find it off-putting.

“Trekkies themselves” may also refer to the fact that Trekfans like to debate to the nth degree any aspect of the movie or the series [as shown, popularly, on "The Big Bang Theory"] so the general movie audience may think “I’m just not going to ‘get’ it, and who cares anyway, just a bunch of geeks who [again, as popularly portrayed] live in their mothers’ basements and wear silly costumes.”

I think the primary problems with Paramount’s US marketing of STiD were:
[1] no theatre previews until a month before release [most movies market about 3 months out]; [2] no large lobby displays for three months in advance [Marvel had Iron Man 3 up from three months before its release] just a crappy little grey and black poster [to mimic 'The Dark Knight Rises,' apparently] tucked into the glass display cases alongside many other movie posters in their identical glass display cases; — it was not colorful, nor designed to attract the least bit of attention from anyone except apocalypse movie fans; [3] no talk-show publicity until the week before release! [4] no TV ads until two weeks before the release. Only one week before release did Paramount release the beautiful full-color “character” posters, and even then, they were not standee posters [at least not in my local theatre].

The colorful standee posters should have been up months before; talk show appearances, a month before, brief TV ads could have gone up a month before, expanding into 30-60 seconds in the two-three weeks before, movie previews should have been out six months before [as was done with ST2009], even if they just featured a dramatic fly-by of the Enterprise, a few seconds of tense dialogue, or even just the logo and the title — three screens — with dramatic music, “coming summer 2013 — Star Trek — Into Darkness” — cripes, three months before they had cuts showing Cumberbatch’s face, and the Enterprise crew’s, why did they not use them? Was it the Cursed Magic Box?

The US publicity SUCKED. I think they might’ve been devoting the dollars to overseas publicity, but they should not have ‘dissed’ the American, and hugely supportive, loyal Star Trek audience and casual Star Trek fans. Christ what a hose-up.

1141. Marja - May 31, 2014

Okay, yeah, the nine-minute preview counted for something, but I think that appealed primarily to people who were already fans of Trek. And it was the ONLY movie preview of any sort until the last month before.

1142. dmduncan - May 31, 2014

1138. Disinvited – May 31, 2014

Seems to indicate that Spock Prime was actually planning conventional Prime Universe time travel via red matter black hole to get a second chance to stop the Supernova before it could destroy Romulus but Nero futzed it all up.

***

And that is really what it was, but with MWI added to create a new element in Star Trek. The Grandfather Paradox REQUIRES that version of time travel to work with MWI.

1143. dmduncan - May 31, 2014

Sorry but if you are reading ST.09 as if we got into just another Mirror MIrror universe, then you are fabulously misreading the entire tone of the piece.

Some people prefer a dissected frog to a living one, I suppose.

1144. dennycranium - May 31, 2014

First of all, congratulations BobOrci.

As someone who gets to make Star Trek as well- (I’m 1st AD at Star Trek Phase 2)
Please consider the following:
Have a good script, PLEASE.
While I understand the need for the alternate universe please respect what happened in the TOS universe before.
Star Trek, at it’s best, was when they used the Kirk, Spock, McCoy relationship and created drama between the three of them. Wrap your story around the 3 of them and then build on that.
It was based on Naval command structure and crew respected that.
Please, NO Star Trek 90210 moments like we had in the last film, where Kirk asks Uhura if she and Spock were fighting. That’s unprofessional for a commanding officer to do that.
Captain Kirk is our hero- He got knocked on his ass so many times in the last film. When Khan showed up on the Klingon planet he was on his ass as well when they had the scenes on the Vengeance. KEEP HIM ON HIS FEET! And no more hanging Kirk or anybody from a ledge or precipice. (What is it with that, anyways?)
Star Trek also operated in a specific universe when it came to physics, science and the capabilities of the ship. Respect that, it’s like the rules of baseball. If you start pitching from 2nd base, it ain’t baseball anymore.
The Enterprise can travel up to warp 9. I second the opinion of a previous poster- once it reaches warp speed, LET’S SEE IT! It’s a beautiful lady, all the warping space around it detracts from the Enterprise.
If you can beam someone DOWN, you can beam them UP.
If there is a space battle, the Enterprise shoots phaser BEAMS not little red spitballs at the attacking ship.
It has shields that deflect incoming fire, it’s visually exciting to see shield impacts as well.

I understand it’s show business and that you have to get bums in the seats in the theater, so please, remember us- the core fans who keep Trek alive in between films and respect the universe and we will come see it again and again.
Please, no public outbursts of “I get to direct movies, and you don’t!”
You’ve been given the helm of our precious ship.
Treat her like a lady and she’ll always bring you home.

1145. dennycranium - May 31, 2014

One more thing?
Please build a believable engineering set.
That overbuilt Dyson vacuum for a warp core didn’t work.

1146. Phil - May 31, 2014

That settles it, the next movie just needs to be a fake physics lecture.

1147. TrekMadeMeFat - May 31, 2014

Congratulations, Bob!

Remember to market against undesirable trekkie elements! STID had a little too much trekkie stuff in it.

1148. Keachick (Rose) - May 31, 2014

I have just come here and have not read all the latest comments – quite a few.

Star Trek TOS was always a mixture of science based fiction, fantasy, pseudo-science and ordinary fiction where it concerns human behaviour. To expect this series to be somehow different will mean that it is no longer the Star Trek TOS that I knew. The original series had it all and so should this series of films.

It is really a question of whether your imaginations and sense of fun and adventure can handle it. If you can’t, then I guess we are stuck with the least imaginative, least fun and morally dubious showing of more war like scenarios, fist fights, kickings and punchings – like we haven’t seen way too much of that shit already.

Stop boring me!

1149. Keachick (Rose) - May 31, 2014

#1101 – “The BR Trek movies give us mere, superficial gestures of themes and ideas as opposed to going deeper which, if you recall, is what Bob promised during pre-production that they’d be doing with STID.”

Going deeper in what way?

They could have had a scene where Admiral Pike has a genuine discussion with Kirk and Spock over the meaning of the Prime Directive and how this concept might play in various situations. Then again, some audiences would find that boring (not me, though); they would wonder if this is all the film is about etc and think it was “too talky” and want the film to “move along”. I suspect there could a few posting here who would feel similar.

The alternate universe concept was not fully explained until we met prime Spock and then have the two Spocks meet and both live at the end of the ST09 film. Up until then, what happened involving the side effects of the use of red matter, prime Spock and Nero was only hinted at. People were just asked to watch the film play out while not fully comprehending exactly what was going on. I think they call that LIFE.

Well done, Bob Orci and co.!

1150. Keachick (Rose) - May 31, 2014

James T Kirk – “I don’t know what I am supposed to do. I only know what I can do.”

My better half thinks that this statement sums up who Jim Kirk is, in his basic nature.

My understanding here is that life is full of “supposed to” and often times, are in contradiction with one another. The “only know what I can do” is how a person is able cut through all the contradictions and carve out the route/path that makes the most sense to that individual, given their own knowledge and level of wisdom and understanding (which will vary from one person to another).

1151. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1139. dmduncan – May 31, 2014

Yeah, sure, universes in MWI branch off at every moment where a different potential outcome is possible. I don’t know how many times I pointed that out on this site, how many times I pointed out that technically a narrative under that scenario is created by the writer by following the branches of his choice, or how many times I suggested a future movie to go deeper into that as a central part of the story.

OK, but just to be clear, this means that you agree that Nero did not create a new universe by going through the black hole; and that by going through the black hole Nero was, in fact, going to a previous point in time in an alternate universe which existed before Nero entered it and which closely resembles the Prime Universe. This means that the Alt Universe of ST09 could have arisen by any multiverse model and is not necessarily related to MWI. This is an important point, not just because it settles the issue of whether MWI was really discussed or referenced in the movie—and this means that the movie’s time-travel device was not necessarily related to MWI—but also because people tend to get confused about the whole time-travel device, largely due to the intentional ambiguity about it in the dialogue.

But I (and I think this is Bob’s point as well) am talking about a movie in which MWI is represented as a key feature of the plot and the only theory that makes best sense of the movie,

But, that’s the whole point here: MWI doesn’t make any more sense of the movie than Cosmic Inflation or Brane Cosmology. Any of those three multiverse models works equally well for explaining ex post facto where, exactly, Nero and Spock Prime traveled to via the black hole. There’s really nothing in the movie that’s any more relevant to or derivative of MWI than of either Cosmic Inflation or Brane multiverse models.

and you are talking about MWI independent of the movie and in ways that it was not represented as if that is the movie’s mistake rather than yours.

I only went into that whole explanation to show that the movie isn’t necessarily based on MWI any more than it could be said to be based on Cosmic Inflation or Brane Cosmology. You took issue with my saying that MWI was really just “extracurricular” to the movie and the movie doesn’t actually get into MWI or even necessarily reference it.

The dialogue between Alt Spock and Alt Kirk that I quoted previously, in which Alt Spock explains that Nero has set into motion a chain of events is not necessarily a reference to MWI. The whole alternate universe premise could have been based upon any multiverse model and is not necessarily referential of MWI.

I’ve said this a few times, but I’ll say it again: I give Bob Orci credit for discussing MWI during pre-production of ST09 and for bothering to actually know one possible physical model upon which his movie’s time-travel/alternate-universe device could be based. But, he could have done so much more with regard to either MWI, Comic Inflation or Brane Cosmology in the movie, even without having the characters speak any of the scientific jargon.

I’ve already mentioned a couple of issues in this whole exchange that could have been fascinating to explore in the movie—Does Nero actually know WHERE he is? Does he know WHO he is killing? If so, what’s his rationale about it? How does he feel about it? Is it enough to satisfy him? And if Nero DOESN’T know where he actually is (in an alternate universe as opposed to a previous point in time in the Prime Universe), what might happen if Nero were made aware of his true location? Would that information affect him at all? How does the Alt Universe of ST09 differ from the Prime Universe (apart from the events occurring after Nero’s incursion)? Are the differences between the two universes attributable to one of the multiverse models? Are they attributable to MWI? Was there an incident in the past, before Nero’s incursion, when the Alt Universe branched off directly from the Prime Universe? If so, what are the implications for the relationship between the Alt and Prime Universes?

The movie does not contradict MWI the way you mention it, but it didn’t have to deal with that degree of resolution to tell that particular story.

The movie didn’t have to deal with any specific details relating to the multiverse model on which it was based, but it would have made for a more mind-blowing and a more sci-fi movie. I only listed the ST09’s multiverse premise as one of the areas that might have been done differently to make the movie more sci-fi, given the lack of science in what was supposed to be a science fiction movie.

You’re working too hard, man. ;-)

Heh – Cheers!

1152. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1146. Phil – May 31, 2014

That settles it, the next movie just needs to be a fake physics lecture.

Ha!

But seriously, the trick is understanding the science well enough that you can make it very simple and base your movie on it without confusing anyone (unless you want to). If you ask me, O&K’s approach of making the time-travel device in ST09 intentionally ambiguous was plenty confusing. And just consider the plot of STID. Pretty much everyone here has admitted that it was confusing to some degree or another. So, if they’re making the movies confusing with their current approach…Imagine a movie that was conceptually deeper, more based on science, more mind-blowing and trippy, and not necessarily more confusing. Interested?

1153. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1143. dmduncan – May 31, 2014

Sorry but if you are reading ST.09 as if we got into just another Mirror MIrror universe, then you are fabulously misreading the entire tone of the piece.

I don’t think it’s about tone. I think it’s either a misunderstanding of MWI by the writers and/or intentional ambiguity on their part in an attempt to blend the old movie time-travel device with the concept of an alternate universe so that it would make sense to people thinking about it both ways. The result, however, is that it’s probably more confusing to both groups of people.

ST09 is actually both a time-travel story and and Mirror universe story blended into one. It’s a good idea but it’s the only big scientific concept in both of the BR Trek movies, and they didn’t do much with it beyond using it as the device to get Nero and Spock Prime into the Alt Universe.

1154. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1143. dmduncan – May 31, 2014

Actually, when you mentioned “tone” I was reminded of the movie Donnie Darko which tried to make use of a mysterious physics concept but wound up being confusing and not making sense because, admittedly, the writer didn’t really understand the concept or what he was doing with it.

1155. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

P.S.

But, I still enjoyed Donnie Darko for what it did do well and in spite of its confusion.

1156. dmduncan - May 31, 2014

1151. Cygnus-X1 – May 31, 2014

OK, but just to be clear, this means that you agree that Nero did not create a new universe by going through the black hole; and that by going through the black hole Nero was, in fact, going to a previous point in time in an alternate universe which existed before Nero entered it and which closely resembles the Prime Universe. This means that the Alt Universe of ST09 could have arisen by any multiverse model and is not necessarily related to MWI. This is an important point, not just because it settles the issue of whether MWI was really discussed or referenced in the movie—and this means that the movie’s time-travel device was not necessarily related to MWI—but also because people tend to get confused about the whole time-travel device, largely due to the intentional ambiguity about it in the dialogue.

***

No. It means that Nero (or Spock, take your pick; however you want to split the hair) DID create an alternate universe by going through the black hole (or by creating a black hole) into the past of THEIR universe.

It makes no sense at all to say they were going back to a previous point in time of a different universe. It would just be a different universe altogether, and not “the” past at all.

Spock and Nero went into the past that had been THEIR past prior to the moment of their entry into it, and different thereafter.

That’s why Kirk ruminates about the future he might have had if he had known his father and why Spock Prime feels a need to “right” things by getting Kirk where he belongs — in charge of the Enterprise.

That’s also why there IS NO going “back” to the universe he came from for Spock. Why he just settles in place. In MWI you can’t go back. It’s not a simple alternate universe you can visit, like Bermuda.

MWI is implicit in the entire story. It’s not tacked on as an afterthought. it guides what the characters do and how they behave.

1157. Keachick (Rose) - May 31, 2014

#1151 – Re your comments – paragraph nine.

Nero did realize where he was and that, in this universe, Romulus still existed, unlike the place where he had come from where his homeworld, Romulus had been destroyed by the supernova.

Nero waited for prime Spock to come through (what took years for Nero, but only moments for Spock) so that Nero could get hold of the Jellyfish and the red matter. Nero knew that he could use this volatile chemical from the prime universe to bring about the destruction of Vulcan and any other planets he did not want around, in the same way that he had seen the supernova implode. Nero wanted to exact vengeance on prime Spock for failing to save prime Romulus and to ensure that this alt. Romulus was safe from the Federation and anyone else he deemed enemies of the Romulan Empire.

It was all explained in the movie and the confusion sorted when Nero had the conversation with his prisoner, Captain Pike. This scene provided another piece of the puzzle.

1158. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1156. dmduncan – May 31, 2014

We’re going in circles. I already address all of those points. And now you’re doubling back and saying that the black hole might’ve led to the past of the Prime Universe.

Firstly, saying that the black hole lead to the past of the Prime Universe doesn’t make sense (1) within MWI; nor (2) with respect to the Grandfather Paradox. You were touting ST09 for obviating the Grandfather Paradox a couple of posts ago and now you want Spock Prime to be socializing with his Prime Universe self in the past.

The MWI is all kinds of screwy and is a much more convoluted and, in my humble opinion, unlikely scenario for the multiverse than Cosmic Inflation or even Brane Cosmology. But, OK…

In the MWI, as is described in the Dewitt quote that I gave previously, every single quantum event occurs in a universe and the result of this is a multiverse littered with universes which all differ from each other to some degree—from a miniscule, unnoticeable degree in closely related universes, to a large degree in distantly related universes. I’ll post the quote again here for reference:

The following description comes from the Bryce Seligman DeWitt, Quantum Mechanics and Reality, Physics Today, 23(9) pp 30–40 (September 1970). He coined the term Many Worlds Interpretation:

Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual “world” (or “universe”). In lay terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large—perhaps infinite—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.

If we’re going to adhere strictly to the MWI, then there is no, single “Prime” Universe because every universe that each of the Trek characters has inhabited throughout his/her lifetime has been branching off from a previous universe and branching into multiple universes at each quantum event since the birth of that universe. So, at best, the “Prime” Universe is a collection of closely related universes as viewed via the MWI. So, if you say that Spock goes back to a previous point in time in the Prime Universe, I have to ask, “which Prime Universe?” And, of course, the moment that Spock Prime gets to where ever it is that he went, versions of him are immediately branching off in their own respective universes and within a minute there are roughly a kagillion universes each with a newly arrived Spock Prime in them, and each Spock Prime naturally thinks of himself as the one and only and is not aware of the others.

No. It means that Nero (or Spock, take your pick; however you want to split the hair) DID create an alternate universe by going through the black hole (or by creating a black hole) into the past of THEIR universe.

No! The dialogue from the movie that I posted between Alt Kirk and Alt Spock is there specifically to disabuse the audience of the misconception that Nero and Spock traveled back in time within their own universe. It’s also there to let the more savvy know that the Grandfather Paradox has been obviated. If Nero and Spock were meddling about in their own past, they might do things that ultimately lead to their own deaths or cause significant changes in future actions prior to the future point in time when they went through the black hole, thus preventing them from going through the black hole in to the past. But they obviously did go through the black hole into the past because doing so is what caused their past selves to prevent their future selves from doing so. And there’s the Grandfather Paradox.

It makes no sense at all to say they were going back to a previous point in time of a different universe. It would just be a different universe altogether, and not “the” past at all.

Yes, it would technically be a different universe. I was speaking in shorthand because this whole thing is annoyingly convoluted. What I literally meant by going back to a previous point in time of a different universe is that they went into an alternate universe which is very similar to their own, and in that very similar universe went back to a point in time analoguous to a past point in time in the Prime Universe. For example, 5:32AM on June 6, 1868 in the Alternate Universe might be almost exactly the same as 5:32AM on June 6, 1868 in the Prime Universe given that the Alternate Universe and the Prime Universe are very similar and have similar histories. So, instead of saying ALL OF THAT I’m just gonna say “the past of an alternate universe”.

Spock and Nero went into the past that had been THEIR past prior to the moment of their entry into it, and different thereafter.

So, then we’re back to the Grandfather Paradox. If the two men changed their own past, then the two men who traveled back to their own past grew up differently than the two men who traveled back to their own past. And round and round we go.

You’re ignoring the fact that Bob said so himself that the dialogue between Alt Kirk and Alt Spock was intentionally ambiguous in order to cater to two time-travel devices, i.e. the “old” Back to the Future device and the new, alternative universe device. Just accept that as fact and work through the rest from there. You’ll see that there’s actually nothing in the movie specifically basing it on MWI, and it’s not nearly as complicated as you’re trying to make it.

If you just accept that Nero and Spock Prime traveled into an alternate universe, just like in the Mirror universe episodes in every Trek series, and combine this simple plot device with the intentionally ambiguous language which can simply be interpreted as I explained previously—people reacting to and lamenting events which have occurred, just as people do in real life—everything is very simple and makes perfect sense. Use Occam’s Razor here, if that helps you. Which is more likely, the simple way or the totally screwed up convoluted way that nobody can understand?

1159. Cygnus-X1 - May 31, 2014

1137. Disinvited – May 31, 2014

I think he was joking….Besides if it was real research why didn’t Bob provide a link or otherwise identify the research? He’s never been one to shy away from such.

His subsequent comments about it made it pretty clear that he wasn’t joking. I don’t think it was a planned announcement on his part. Maybe he just said it out of frustration and then realized it wasn’t so flattering to Trekkies to be told that they’re the problem. He seemed to express regret about what he’d said shortly thereafter and then said no more about the issue.

1160. Marja - June 1, 2014

1149 and 1150, Rose, I agree, that statement of Kirk’s sums up his young character extremely well. This is the founding of his “seat of his pants” thinking [improvisation in urgent moments], and as he gains more experience he will become the master of what he can do [as in, work around what the hidebound by-the-book dingdongs at Headquarters expect] to achieve a better solution than originally envisioned. And I loved that moment in the movie, because he’s saying, to Spock, “I may have come across as a “know-it-all”/”smartass” in the past [Kobayashi Maru & other events in ST09], but I don’t know the proper moves here, except what I can do right now to help.” THAT’s why I love this Kirk. He makes mistakes but he’s humble enough to admit he’s feeling his way through.
——————————————————————————————
1151 Cygnus, “with regard to either MWI, Comic Inflation or Brane Cosmology” wait … comic inflation? Is that a fart joke? Oh. Just a typo. Durn it, and here I’d hoped you were sinking to my level. I seem to have had a Brane Drane.
——————————————————————————————
1156 dmduncan “Spock Prime feels a need to “right” things by getting Kirk where he belongs — in charge of the Enterprise.”

Which is kind of illogical, since they’re in a different universe, why is Prime Spock feckin’ around with AUKirk like that? Maybe in the NuVerse Kirk wasn’t meant to be captain, but first officer. It was a really forced storyline there and an odd determination by Elder Spock, IMHO.

This and all the “flow of time into familiar patterns” stuff seemed a little over-explanatory. We’re in a different universe. That’s all I needed or cared to know, really. These folks who started out a certain way, much as they had in another universe, were changed 25 years before [Nero's incursion and the changes in the Federation and Starfleet as a result, and George Kirk's death] and changed yet again by other life experiences [Battle of Vulcan].

“In MWI you can’t go back. It’s not a simple alternate universe you can visit, like Bermuda.”

LOL. Yep, and that’s why I like the concept SO much better, really.

[I know, I know, probably very simplistic of me, not being a reader of science like Cygnus I over-simplify and completely miss certain points, but as a viewer, I was ever so glad to do without the time travel paradox and all the usual crap.] Let’s just feckin well branch off into new adventures.

I enjoy science fiction, I’m not saying I’m an idiot, but the time paradox stuff has always REALLY bugged me. So [if I were Bob, I'd have said] “let’s cut the BS, and do an alternative verse based on the infinite universes model. Then we can have young Kirk and crew and all new adventures.”
———————————————————————————————–
Having read some of the comics starting with “After Darkness,” I’m concerned that we’re gonna see a mess o’ Klingons, Section 31, and Kirk & Co. battling the corruption that Section 31’s power has bred in Starfleet. Bleah. I’m hopeful that they’ll get all that storyline over with in the comics, and the third movie will be a new spacefaring adventure. With, maybe, new aliens, new civilizations ….

1161. Cygnus-X1 - June 1, 2014

1159. Marja – June 1, 2014

Cute.

But, wouldn’t a fart be more of a comic deflation?

1156. dmduncan – May 31, 2014

“In MWI you can’t go back. It’s not a simple alternate universe you can visit, like Bermuda.”

Oh, I forgot to address this bit.

I don’t remember Spock Prime’s exact line…I recall something like, “For me there is no going back.”

Again, this doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with MWI. The black hole that brought Spock Prime into the Alt Universe was a random phenomenon, not one deliberately created with precise measurements intended to lead from the Prime Universe into that particular point in time in that particular alternate universe. The Federation doesn’t have the technological knowledge to created wormholes with predetermined “mouths”, as the openings are called in physics. Spock Prime can’t go back to the Prime Universe because he doesn’t have the ability to recreate a black hole or wormhole to take him there. Even if Spock cooked up some more Red Matter (assuming he knows how to make it) and shot it out into space hoping for the best, the black hole that it created could lead anywhere…to any of an infinite number of universes.

Are you seeing the pattern here? There is nothing in ST09 that specifically ties the Alt Universe to MWI. There just isn’t. The dialogue between Alt Kirk and Alt Spock about “whatever our destinies may have been…yada yada…they’re different now…yada… was just written that way in order to represent the time-travel device as the old (within a single universe) model for the benefit of audience members familiar with only that model of time-travel in movies. Again, Bob said his himself. But, let’s have one more look at it…

ALT SPOCK: (1) You’re assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. (2) The contrary, Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the U.S.S. Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, (3) thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.

Let’s analyze it line by line, keeping in mind that this dialogue was intentionally ambiguous and meant to be understood when viewed as premised upon both upon the old (within a single universe) model of time-travel in movies and this new model (alternate universes).

(1) You’re assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold.

Alt Kirk (positioned herein on the side of the unknowing audience) assumes that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold because Alt Kirk has assumed (as many audience members would) that Nero is from “the future” in the old time-travel-movie sense, meaning from the future in the same universe. That’s how you see it if you know about the alternate universe premise of the movie (because Bob told you beforehand).

(2) The contrary, Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the U.S.S. Kelvin, culminating in the events of today…

If you’re in the old-time-travel crowd, you interpret this line in the same way as time-travel was depicted in Back to the Future, wherein future people can go back into the past and alter their own futures. So, to that crowd, Alt Spock here is saying future guy Nero doesn’t really know what’s gonna happen in the future any more because he’s altered it by his actions in the past.

However, if you’re in the alternate-universe-time-travel crowd, you interpret this line under the assumption that Nero comes from a very similar alternate universe, i.e. the Prime Universe, and the events of Alt Spock’s and Alt Kirk’s universe, i.e. the Alt Universe, would have been roughly the same as in Nero’s universe during that time period if only Nero hadn’t switched universes and messing things up in Alt Spock’s and Alt Kirk’s universe. The basic statement of fact being made here by Alt Spock is: Nero’s past actions have consequences for us here and now. And this would obviously be true even without the whole time-travel, universe-jumping conceit.

(3) thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.

The old-time-travel crowd interprets this as meaning that future guy Nero has come back in time and changed the past a la Back to the Future, and therefore the future is now uncertain for everyone, including future guy Nero.

And the alternate-universe crowd interprets this as meaning that the Alt Universe, however similar it was to the Prime Universe and would have remained so if not for Nero’s meddling in it, will now unfold in a way that is significantly different for all of the people affected by Nero’s actions in it—the destruction of the Kelvin and so forth.

See, it’s all actually pretty simple conceptually, in spite of the ambiguous dialogue. You just have to keep in mind that each reference to the time-travel device is meant to have two meanings: one meaning if Nero traveled to a previous point in time in the same universe, and another meaning if Nero traveled to an alternate universe that is very similar to the Prime Universe but which will obviously unfold differently in certain ways due to Nero’s meddling in it.

Again, there’s no MWI here. It’s not that complicated, just intentionally ambiguous.

1162. Cygnus-X1 - June 1, 2014

Well, my long response seems to be in moderation queue.

My post script to that:

I think that Bob’s main reason for bringing up MWI during pre-production of ST09 was to legitimize the whole Alternate Universe premise for the Bad Robot Trek movies. If you recall, at that time there were a lot of people here up in arms or at least somewhat concerned about what would become of Trek if it was permanently shifted to a new universe. In order to reassure people that the Alt Universe premise wasn’t just some pie-in-the-sky bit of whimsy, Bob raised the MWI has a scientific basis for how alternate universes might actually exist. He was rooting the premise of the new movies in science by referencing MWI, nothing more. Again, I give him credit for this, though I’d have gone with Cosmic Inflation. But, again, this is a relatively minor quibble.

1163. Phil - June 1, 2014

Bring on the physics lectures in Trek! Oh, wait…

http://business.nd.edu/ask_more/commentary.aspx?id=10739

Just what do you mean, they are boring AND useless, too? There’s proof positive that at least a few people find them….arousing.

1164. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2014

@1159 Marja,
“This and all the “flow of time into familiar patterns” stuff seemed a little over-explanatory.”

I agree. It was all a bit like Marty McFly in a radiation suit, standing over his teenage dad with a Walkman hooked up to his ears, telling him about his “destiny”.

Prime Spock is a bit of a pill, which is why I said early on they need to get rid of him. Many of us said the urge to pump him for information would be too much to ignore if he were left alive, and sure enough, despite Orci’s assurances to the contrary they went right back to the well in STID — Prime Spock, Transwarp beaming … Heck I’m surprised they didn’t find a way to work red matter in there …

Perhaps it was one more case of needing him to validate this new Trek as the newly improved great white Khan was re-introduced to fans … Hey kids, remember, this IS Star Trek … See there’s Leonard Nimoy!

1165. Disinvited - June 1, 2014

#1158. Cygnus-X1 – May 31, 2014

I’ll have to dig it up and review the chain but I very clearly recall being there when the notion was proffered that “research” showed this and I challenged it immediately, and no reference was provided to back it up.

I challenged it because the notion was as old as the hills. My earliest recollection places it on Harlan Ellison and his struggles with Gene. He pretty much said it as much as an estimation of Roddenberry and then when the fan flack hit extended it too them as well.

Its floated around ever since. According to Google, it first surfaced in Trekmovie.com’s own comment chains around December of 2007 with the claiming Trek fans were Trek’s own worst enemies by Jeff Bond

http://trekmovie.com/2007/12/09/john-logan-on-new-star-trek/

“But on the other hand, reading these comments, I still feel like we Trekkies are Star Trek’s worst enemy.” – Jeff Bond

who then took it later, in July of the following year, to where he dates [1980-1981] the “inspiration” for its prostelytization:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/archive/index.php/t-222713-p-3.html

“I heartily agree, and it’s something I’ve said before, that sometimes the fans are Trek’s worst enemy. I remember having a conversation with another fan a year or so after the release of Star Trek – The Motion Picture and offhandedly commenting that I would have liked to have seen a little more conflict between the characters. This young woman practically went ballistic…” — jbond

The closest I’ve come to finding “official” research is something they are so proud of that it can only be found in archives not maintained by CBS:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.startrek.com/boards-topic/33346847/star-trek-s-worst-enemy

1166. Keachick (Rose) - June 1, 2014

#1164 – Transwarp beaming was what both Scottys were working on. Prime Spock gave alt Scotty the solution at an earlier time in the alternate universe compared with when prime Scotty arrived at the solution in the prime universe. What we were told was that this was Scotty’s work all along.

In ST09 Prime Spock proved himself to be a bit meddlesome, manipulative, controlling, especially concerning Kirk. When prime Spock realized that alt Kirk was not captain, he immediately set about trying make it so this Kirk did become captain, even though he could not have been familiar with all the variables pertaining to this alt existence, which included this young Jim Kirk. This was a case of prime Spock willing things to be as he knew them and felt comfortable about and actually belonged to the past of the universe that he had come from, but not necessarily also belonging to this alt. universe he had stumbled into.

Perhaps it was through the mind-meld that PSpock realized that young Kirk’s true potential (ie like “turning death into a fighting chance”…) but still, there can be no denying the particular hubris of this older Spock.

Herein lies part of a problem that this alt. Kirk has to face that did not appear to one that the prime Kirk needed to deal with. This young Kirk is being pushed around, kicked and punched (quite literally all too often) by obvious enemies and by those who give the appearance of being an ally (like Admiral Marcus – head of SF), not to mention someone who is out of his time and place telling this younger man what his “destiny” is.

“I don’t know what I am supposed to do. I only know what I can do.” Words said by a clear thinking person who has had to push aside all the distractions and nonsense and focus on who he is (right now) and what he can do.

1167. Ahmed - June 1, 2014

3 weeks since Variety ran that story and yet, no official confirmation from either Paramount or BR.

Maybe the whole thing is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs

1168. Ahmed - June 1, 2014

Don’t expect news about the next Star Trek movie at comic-con 2014!

========================

Roberto Orci ‏@realboborci

“@Conspiracyin559: Hypothetically of course…would you say that maybe, possibly we’ll hear something about Next Trek at ComicCon?” Nope!

http://twitter.com/realboborci/status/472765013178847232

1169. Cygnus-X1 - June 1, 2014

1165. Disinvited – June 1, 2014

I’ll save you the trouble: no reference was provided.

But, that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t serious when he said it. People didn’t respond well to the comment, so he immediately dropped it. “Reference” didn’t enter into it.

1170. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2014

@1168. Ahmed,
“Don’t expect news about the next Star Trek movie at comic-con 2014!”

This is the worst possible thing Paramount could do. Every studio in town is shopping not only their films, but their TV series at comic con. This is the single biggest showcase for marketing new projects, comic franchise or otherwise to the desired masses.

It suggests to me they have no idea what they are doing …

Is Disney withholding Star Wars from Comic Con?

1171. TrekMadeMeFat - June 1, 2014

“When we think of a franchise that would be much better off without its fans, we think, first and only, of Star Trek.”

I may tell you who said that someday. It would doubtless surprise you.

1172. Ahmed - June 1, 2014

@ 1170. Curious Cadet – June 1, 2014

“Is Disney withholding Star Wars from Comic Con?”

Of course not

=============

Kyle Buchanan @kylebuchanan

Star Wars 7 casting announcements will come soon, but I’m told that Disney will hold the title reveal until Comic Con. Worked for Marvel…

9:45 PM – 23 Apr 2014

http://sdccblog.com/2014/04/will-san-diego-comic-con-2014-be-the-year-of-star-wars-episode-vii/

1173. Cygnus-X1 - June 1, 2014

1163. Phil – June 1, 2014

Yes, well, as if this needs to be said…

I do not now nor have I ever advocated physics lectures in Trek movies.

On the contrary, a well-informed writer can give you quite a bit of information via character dialogue without it seeming academic or abstract. If you’ve a good understanding of a concept, you’re able to simplify it and base a story on it while keeping the dialogue almost entirely colloquial. It’s the old saying: If you truly understand a concept, you can explain it to a 5-year-old.

1174. Ahmed - June 1, 2014

@ 1169. Cygnus-X1 – June 1, 2014

“But, that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t serious when he said it. People didn’t respond well to the comment, so he immediately dropped it. “Reference” didn’t enter into it.”

Yep, after his first comment, Bob posted this:

367. boborci – January 7, 2014

“Wasn’t drinking wine.

I am sharing with you research that I have seen. That is all. Not lashing out, not trying to be a dick. Just me, the writer/producer of these movies, being trasparent about things. Perhaps more transparent than I should ever be, but that has been my style all along.”

And the next day, it was just a joke !!!

418. boborci – January 8, 2014

“I keeeeed!”

1175. Ahmed - June 1, 2014

@ 1170. Curious Cadet – June 1, 2014

“This is the worst possible thing Paramount could do. Every studio in town is shopping not only their films, but their TV series at comic con. This is the single biggest showcase for marketing new projects, comic franchise or otherwise to the desired masses.
It suggests to me they have no idea what they are doing … ”

They are basically repeating what was done with STID marketing by ignoring comic-con completely. Marvel dominated Comic-Con 2010 when they brought in The Avengers, 2 full years before the movie release date.

And now Bob is saying that they have no plans whatsoever to go to Comic-Con 2014, what a brilliant marketing move from them!!!

1176. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2014

@1175 Ahmed,
“And now Bob is saying that they have no plans whatsoever to go to Comic-Con 2014, what a brilliant marketing move from them!!!”

Well, you know, he’s a first time director … He MUST know what he’s doing …

1177. Tom - June 1, 2014

Surprising. They were smartly at Comic con prior to 09 and it worked out well. Now everyone is doing it and they did not do it for STID. Perhaps 2015?

1178. Son of Captain Garth - June 1, 2014

#1118 Gingerly: Hi.

1179. Bill Peters - June 1, 2014

Most likey we will get a Teaster Trailer or something at Comic Con in 2015….

1180. Disinvited - June 1, 2014

#1174. Ahmed – June 1, 2014

I remember that. And I was just composing a reply to remind Cygnus that people strike back in anger all the time with little regard for the truth, or rather more regard for what the wish to be true. Doesn’t make it so. Often only marks how deep the insecurity that allowed the imagined blow to smart psychologically in the first place.

So if the point is that his intent was to strike back and hurt was real, then I agree. But any suggestion that he was wielding any REAL, and by that I mean dispassionate peer-reviewed science based, research to back up what he and Paramount desperately want to be true, is specious.

# 1175. Ahmed – June 1, 2014, 1170. Curious Cadet – June 1, 2014

Is this really a surprise given what JJ said is Paramount’s marketing model of not giving any hint that their Trek might appeal to fans?

I mean until I found that, I always puzzled what JJ meant when he said that STID wasn’t even for fans of his first Trek?

Now, it seems evident, that Paramount has a deep seated phobia about any Trek they back appealing to any kind of a Trek fan, even the new ones that are only attracted to the Trek they themselves, nuParamount, financed.

And as my grandfather might say less refinedly, “The time (ComicCon) has come for them to do their business or get off the pot.” I say to Paramount “Have the courage of your convictions. If you truly and honestly believe the fans stand between you and billions, then you have to pull the trigger. You have to jettison us. We fans who go back 50 years often reference The Great Bird of the Galaxy as a form of blessing. I encourage you to flip that meaning, come to ComicCon 2014 and literally give it to us.”

I tire of your wishy-washiness in attempting to market what license gives you the right to produce as I did of old Paramount’s similar lack of decisiveness in its ownership in the 1970s.

And now, as the the anger fades, I realize I’ve always had STAR TREK regardless of what you suits decided to do, and I’ve just now entered the nascent phase of just ceasing to care about Paramount Trek period. If you ever change your mind, I’m fairly sure you know where and how to reach me and others like me. If not, more’s the pity.

1181. Tony - June 1, 2014

ummm.. I have a bad feeling about this?

1182. boborci - June 1, 2014

every body relax and trust the the universe will unfold as it should.

1183. boborci - June 1, 2014

1181 and stop quoting that other space franchise;) Not my problem;)

1184. Stephan - June 1, 2014

1183. Boborci:

There is another space franchise? I would know that. ;-)

1185. Stephan - June 2, 2014

By the way, I was in London at the weekend and attended Star Trek Into Darkness – Live in Concert with and by Michael Giacchino in the Royal Albert Hall. It was very impressive and almost sold out. But not only the music was phenomenal. I have to say Into Darkness is still one of my favourite Star Trek movies. And the audience was thrilled as well. They laughed very often and applauded and cheered not only to the music but to key scenes of the movie. A few persons were cheering in a positive way when Khan revealed his name.

I write this because I want to say that at least the 5000 persons in the Albert Hall thought that Into Darkness is a great movie.

By the way: Really great performance by Giacchino and the orchestra and the choir. @bob: make sure, you get him back for your trek movie! ;)

1186. Picard's Fish - June 2, 2014

Boborci – is “the universe will unfold as it should” a hint about the next movie?? ;)

1187. Marja - June 2, 2014

Re: ComiCon We can hope Trek3 will be announced at Comicon 2015, when there may even be footage to show.

I hope they have a lot more sense than in 2013, and market this thing! Maybe even bring the stars to ComiCon, because that’ll help make it HUGE in the US among genre fans of many stripes. Plus the media are covering ComiCon in ever-increasing numbers.

1188. Mike Barnett - June 2, 2014

@ 1187 Marja

I hope that the Star Trek 3 marketing folks go back to the ST09 model and have a presence at Comicon 2015. I also wish they could come up with a fun teaser that is shown in theaters a year or so before ST3 is released. I thought the “Under Construction” trailer was THE best.

Bob Orci:
I understand that there are probably valid reasons for you to be tight lipped about Star Trek Five-0 ;-) but looking ahead to when it’s in production, I sure hope you’ll still be able to talk with you friends here on Trekmovie or your Twitter account.

1189. Ahmed - June 2, 2014

@ 1182. boborci – June 1, 2014

“every body relax and trust the the universe will unfold as it should.”

Indeed, Master of Zen :-)

1190. Ahmed - June 2, 2014

@1187. Marja

“I hope they have a lot more sense than in 2013, and market this thing! Maybe even bring the stars to ComiCon, because that’ll help make it HUGE in the US among genre fans of many stripes. Plus the media are covering ComiCon in ever-increasing numbers.”

Their lack of interest in promoting the movie at comic-con is really astonishing. This is the one big event in the year where every major & small company come to market their upcoming products & build up major buzz about them.

For comic-con 2014, all they need to do is to bring the writers & some of the cast to talk in general about the movie.

In 2010, Marvel didn’t have footage of The Avengers, they just brought in the entire cast & that was more than enough to generate buzz for months.

1191. Tom - June 2, 2014

#1182 boborci

“The universe will unfold as it should”. Love it. think the universe should have Spock Prime end up on Alternate Universe Talos IV living out his days with illusions of Kirk Prime similar to the hologram scene(hint hint). Why would Spock Prime go to Talos? Bendi syndrome perhaps? Spock prime back on Talos would bring balance to the force..i mean universe and allow it to unfold as it should.

1192. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2014

@1186. Picard’s Fish,
“Boborci – is “the universe will unfold as it should” a hint about the next movie?? ;)”

Yes Orci is confirming that Nimoy will slingshot around the sun after helping New Vulcan get started, and return to the Prime Universe, overshooting his own time and landing in the past, where the brand new cast of Star Trek for the next 8 years, will be in the middle of Where No Man Has Gone Before, just as it was 50 years ago. Nimoy, not wanting to screw things up again and contaminate the timeline gives himself the Vulcan death grip and is buried on the real Delta Vega once and for all.

1193. Ahmed - June 2, 2014

@1192. Curious Cadet

LOL

1194. Cygnus-X1 - June 2, 2014

1192. Curious Cadet – June 2, 2014

Nimoy, not wanting to screw things up again and contaminate the timeline gives himself the Vulcan death grip and is buried on the real Delta Vega once and for all.

That is funny.

I’m surprised it’s never been done in a parody, like on Family Guy or something.

1195. Cygnus-X1 - June 2, 2014

1180. Disinvited – June 1, 2014

And as my grandfather might say less refinedly, “The time (ComicCon) has come for them to do their business or get off the pot.” I say to Paramount “Have the courage of your convictions. If you truly and honestly believe the fans stand between you and billions, then you have to pull the trigger. You have to jettison us. We fans who go back 50 years often reference The Great Bird of the Galaxy as a form of blessing. I encourage you to flip that meaning, come to ComicCon 2014 and literally give it to us.”

That I’d like to see. It would be awesome and actually quite satisfying for the likes of me. It seems they’ve all but written us off anyway; just come out and divorce us in public. Ostracize the freaks! Cast us out of the village! Might makes right, and he who pays the piper calls the tune!

The sad part is that Trek must have been plenty profitable for all those years from TMP up to the end of ENT. So, Paramount were making money while still caring (presumably, at least somewhat) about the fans.

1196. Keachick (Rose) - June 2, 2014

#1173 – “If you’ve a good understanding of a concept, you’re able to simplify it and base a story on it while keeping the dialogue almost entirely colloquial. It’s the old saying: If you truly understand a concept, you can explain it to a 5-year-old.”

I guess this explains how my then 14 and 16 year olds were able to understand the concept discussed and shown in Star Trek 09 re prime/alternate universes etc upon first screening. However, it took various people months, even years to *get it* into what they consider(ed) their bright, adult noggins. Who knows what some five year olds would make of it, but then again, we tend not to listen to what can “come out of the mouths of babes”.

1197. Keachick (Rose) - June 2, 2014

“every body relax and trust the the universe will unfold as it should.”

Oh Bob! Are you saying, along with prime Spock, that you know what is meant or will unfold? I need me those crystal balls and quick…:)

If I may make a correction – “every body relax and trust that the universe will unfold as we work and hope.”

I know – another reason not to like me. I want to like and be liked, but other *things* seem to get in the way…sigh…

I do not see any good reason why there should necessarily be a presence at Comic Con 2014. At this stage, they are (hopefully, as the universe is unfolding) working on fine tuning the script but there is no film or anything else to show regarding the next movie. However, if rumours are correct that principle photography for this third movie will begin early next year, then there should indeed be something to show at the 2015 Comic Con. That would make sense!

1198. Marja - June 2, 2014

1197 Rose, “if rumours are correct that principle photography for this third movie will begin early next year, then there should indeed be something to show at the 2015 Comic Con. That would make sense!”

And would help draw in a huge audience for Trek3 in the US, including some sci-fi/fantasy/other fans who may not have seen it before.

I am still baffled that they didn’t do 2012 ComiCon.

1199. Marja - June 2, 2014

1185 Stephan, You lucky duck! I can only imagine. It must’ve been awesome.

Yes, indeedy, they need to bring Giacchino back for Trek3. I loved the score for STiD … the change from “Nero’s Theme” to “Harrison’s Theme” was just great.

1200. Ahmed - June 2, 2014

@1198. Marja

“I am still baffled that they didn’t do 2012 ComiCon.”

THE MYSTERY BOX! It is just a speculation on my part but I guess Abrams didn’t want anyone to peek inside his precious box :-)

I bet that he is very upset over Star Wars set photos that were leaked online today.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/06/02/star-wars-episode-7-set-photos-secret-pics-new-creature/

1201. Disinvited - June 2, 2014

For those interested in history:

At the 2006 ComicCon:

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/star_trek_xi_logo/

“be sure to drop by the Paramount booth (#3914) today for your very own mini one-sheet.” of the poster with 2008 marking the year of release.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060805140946/http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/19575.html

“The production team that now holds the creative reins for the next Star Trek movie project has released a piece of artwork this weekend (to coincide with Comic-Con) that provides a Polaroid of an era past, as well as a vision yet to be revealed. With this familiar imagery, the direction of the next movie is now officially open to speculation.

J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof are the film’s producers; Bryan Burk, Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are executive producers. The film is slated for release in 2008.

The first people to get their hands on this iconic image are those who visit the Paramount Pictures booth this morning at Comic-Con in San Diego.” — CBS

Paramount also allowed the Con to float the story that the only original series style sets in existence (recreated for ENTERPRISE:In a Mirror Darkly) were being auctioned. Thus, clearly indicating that the era’s designs would be updated and/or changed in some fashion.

1202. Stephan - June 3, 2014

1199. Marja

Yes, indeed it was. :) The hall is so gigantic and there are no “bad” seats because it is build like the colosseum. The orchestra was fantastic and it worked very well with the film being shown simultaniously.
In the end there were standing ovations and Giacchino conducted a track from his new planet of the apes – score as encore.

1203. Disinvited - June 3, 2014

Meanwhile in a franchise far, far away:

Oscar winner Lupita Nyong’o signed for Disney’s STAR WARS sequel.