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Orci Talks ‘New Discoveries’ For 2016 Star Trek Movie July 18, 2014

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman,ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

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Roberto Orci remains cautious but he had a little more to say about the 2016 Star Trek movie at a recent event – talking about the setting, character arcs and directing the film. Details below.

Orci Talks Star Trek 2016 Directing & Setting

Roberto Orci took time away from writing the next Star Trek movie to attend a premiere screening of his new El Rey series Matador, hosted by Latino Post and the United Latin American Citizens. Latin Post has reported more of Orci’s Star Trek comments from the Q&A. First up, Orci (while remaining cautious to avoid spoilers) also added a bit more detail on the previously reported comments regarding the setting of the next movie and the arcs of the characters….

Well, fans are a little bit nutty, so I have got to be careful with what I say, but I can tell you that it definitely takes place in [deep] space. They’re finally on their five year mission and that hasn’t been the case in any of the previous movies. The first two movies are set up to where the original series started. Now when you watch this movie, hopefully, you will see that Kirk, Spock and Bones and Scotty, Uhura, and Chekov are very close to the original characters that you saw in the original series and from [there] they’re going to hopefully discover some stuff that you haven’t seen before.

Also, in relation to the hubub over the status of Roberto Orci’s deal to direct the next Star Trek film. Bob has added a bit more detail to his previous comments, saying…

It looks like I may direct it; I am in the middle of proving to Paramount that I am the guy for the job.

More on the event at The Latin Post.


Orci with Latin Post’s Melissa Castellanos at Matador screening at Paley Center in New York (photo: Latin Post)

Comments

1. dmduncan - July 18, 2014

“…a little but nutty?”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCM6TZgTMI

2. Mike Stivic - July 18, 2014

With more Orci and less Abrams, this movie is probably going to be the best of the three thus far! I hope it has the sometimes spooky feel of the original show and more of the Kirk, Spock, McCoy relationship.

3. Son of Sarek - July 18, 2014

Patrick Stewart must costar in a search for Spock Prime to return him to his correct timeline. Cameo various TNG, DS9, VOY stars for good measure for the 50th extravaganza!

4. Ryan Spooner - July 18, 2014

I’m cautiously optimistic. If we can pull back from the full on action focus a little, and dedicate a bit more time to the characters, set pieces, space scenery, ships etc, then I’ll be happy.

5. Marja - July 18, 2014

1 Duncan, LOL!

6. Marja - July 18, 2014

4 Ryan, I’m in full agreement.

As for the “bring back Original/TNG/every other” cast member ideas, I’d say that folks are whistlin’ into the wind.

7. NuTrekRocks - July 18, 2014

I hope they take the example of X-men Days of Future Past, where the drama and action are balanced. I enjoyed STID, it was exciting and I had a rollicking good time watching contemporary issues be reflected in Star Trek..Now that the characters are established, lets take it up another notch like STID did from ST09. Lets have less action, more exploration, more of the triad, and a more cerebral sci fi experience this time. I want to walk out of the theatre and say, “wow, that is the smartest star trek film I have ever seen. I never thought of….” If audiences can swallow DOFP, Gravity, edge of tomorrow and Inception, then they can handle a sci fi adventure complete with ideas that challenge their intellect.

Good Luck Bob!!

8. Mike Barnett - July 18, 2014

We’re in good hands with Orci in the center seat. Paramount will make it official once he hands in the script.

9. CmdrR - July 18, 2014

Good story. Original story. Character focus. Minimal (if any) lens flares and fist fights.

I seriously doubt there’s enough backing to load up on fan-boy pleasing stunt casting. Many of the actors from the other series in the TNG era do not even look like they did (not a dig, just a fact) so why would you go there?

10. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

@9. CmdrR

“Many of the actors from the other series in the TNG era do not even look like they did (not a dig, just a fact) so why would you go there?”

Disney & Abrams just went there with the casting of Ford, Hamill and Fisher in SW 7!

11. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

“It looks like I may direct it; I am in the middle of proving to Paramount that I am the guy for the job.”

Paramount, stop wasting time, just get it on with, greenlight the movie & release it in 2016.

12. Son of Jello - July 18, 2014

“I am in the middle of proving to Paramount that I am the guy for the job”.

starlet.:)

13. Keachick (Rose) - July 18, 2014

Is anybody else busy proving that they might be the guy (perhaps a better person?) as well as Bob Orci?

Surely, the decision and signing of actual contracts should occur much sooner than later. Many of us believed that this had already happened.

14. Nony - July 18, 2014

“…Sulu, however, will be unrecognizable.”

15. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

@ 13. Keachick (Rose) – July 18, 2014

“Is anybody else busy proving that they might be the guy (perhaps a better person?) as well as Bob Orci?”

That is a good question, unfortunately we have no way of knowing if that is the case.

16. miko - July 18, 2014

Watch this space….doomsday machine

17. JR - July 18, 2014

Time to blow up the Enterprise again.

18. Lemingsworth Bint - July 18, 2014

If people wanted to see Picard again, they would have bought his blurays. But they didn’t, so don’t look to see your childhood favorites riding the coattails of nuTrek’s success.

19. Diskhanbobulated - July 18, 2014

“Well, fans are a little bit nutty…” is the new “Get a life!”

20. TrekMadeMeWonder - July 18, 2014

Steady as she goes, Mr. Orci.

Don’t be afraid to remind them that you have plenty of backup support from the movie experts here at TM! ; )

21. Tom - July 18, 2014

3 quick points for boborci

1. Looking forward to fall for 2 reasons. NFL and Sleepy Hollow!
2. Kudos to you and your agent!
3. Keep Shatner & Nimoy in mind for 50th anniversary movie! Knock Trek 3 out of the Park!

22. Disinvited - July 18, 2014

#19. Diskhanbobulated – July 18, 2014

I’m still parsing:

“I was a fan Star Trek forever;” — Roberto Orci

23. Mad Mann - July 18, 2014

17 JR

Aw, man, I really hope they DONT blow up the Enterprise!!!

Please don’t destroy the Enterprise! We saw that TWICE already in other Trek movies! Twice!

24. Phil - July 18, 2014

Not the slightest bit interested in a blender movie to celebrate the 50th anniversary. That’s the whole purpose retrospective TV specials serve.

25. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

@22. Disinvited

““I was a fan Star Trek forever;” — Roberto Orci”

Maybe he meant Batman Forever :-)

26. Tom - July 18, 2014

24 Phil

Lets not have a run of the mill average movie either

27. Chuckunit - July 18, 2014

You go, Bob. You’ve proved you have what it takes. Directorial technique can learned….passion cannot. Trust yourself, surround yourself with people you can trust to tell you the truth, and concentrate on telling us the story you want to see on that screen.

Folks, right here, right now, who is better equipped to direct this film? Who has access to better advice? He helped bring Trek back from the dead, and he helped make it succeed.

Have some faith, folks.

28. Red Dead Ryan - July 18, 2014

#25.

“Maybe he meant Batman Forever :-)”

Unless he decides to include homoerotic nippled rubber suits with oversized codpieces along with neon and bad acting, I would rather think he has better taste than that! :-)

29. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

@28. Red Dead Ryan

LOL

30. Disinvited - July 18, 2014

#15. Ahmed – July 18, 2014

Old guy nostalgia alert:

Reminds me of that old panel game show “TO TELL THE TRUTH” where 3 contestants each identify themselves as “My name is Roberto Orci.” and the panelists try to discern who’s the real Roberto Orci. If a deceiver gets the most votes he wins and gets to direct the next trek.

31. Red Dead Ryan - July 18, 2014

Yeah, I’m no fan of the “how many of the previous actors can we get into the movie for the anniversary” gimmick. “Star Wars” is different, as none of Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, nor Mark Hamill continued appearing in any SW production after “Return Of The Jedi”. Trek has featured countless cameos and crossovers — they’re no longer special.

A few Easter eggs — nods to popular episodes or moments from previous Treks — is okay, but just as long as it’s more “Skyfall” than “Die Another Day” in how they’re included.

32. B Kramer - July 18, 2014

Check out Bob O. and company with the POTUS (another famous ST fan of course.)

https://twitter.com/WValderramaBRA/status/488402160796073984

33. Disinvited - July 18, 2014

# 26. Tom – July 18, 2014

” Lets not have a run of the mill average movie either” — Tom

Now you’ve done it. I’m never going to get the image out of my head that Brewgineering also includes a mill as [gravity] well.

34. Disinvited - July 18, 2014

#31. Red Dead Ryan – July 18, 2014

Waddaya mean? STAR WARS had 2 count ‘em 2 movies between the 2nd and 3rd appearances of the principal character Yoda. For STAR TREK, it took 4 movies before its Yoda, Spock, returned.

35. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

@32. B Kramer

wow, this is a great picture. Bob is at the center of power; right next to President Obama :)

And Tony aka the Matador is there too, this is so weird; I just finished watching the pilot.

Thanks for sharing, B Kramer.

36. Tom - July 18, 2014

33 Disinvited

Sorry. You are right. I should not be conjuring up images of the Enterprise brewery!

37. Tom - July 18, 2014

I don;t think we will see cameos from all the different incarnations of Trek. I really think they should just do a small tribute scene with Shatner and Nimoy. We are seeing Nu Trek characters based on the original characters. So I think for this movie any special appearances should be limited to them

38. Ahmed - July 18, 2014

While Paramount is still thinking about greenlighting ST 13, Marvel announced release dates through 2019!

2015:
May 1: The Avengers: Age of Ultron
July 17: Ant-Man

2016:
May 6: Captain America 3
July 8: Doctor Strange

2017:
May 5: Untitled
July 27: Untitled
Nov. 3: Untitled

2018:
July 6: Untitled
Nov. 2: Untitled

2019:
May 3: Untitled

Source: Variety

39. B Kramer - July 18, 2014

@35 Welcome A.

40. Finnigan - July 18, 2014

OK, on the Five Year Mission, way out there in space. A good start, but after the poor writing of Star Trek Into Disappointment I remain skeptical. Mr. Orci, you have much to prove, if indeed Paramount gives you the job. I want to be optimistic, but the last movie gives me great pause. I have low expectations and I have been a Trek fan since it was running on NBC. Prove me wrong and I will be delighted to sing your praises. Let us down and I believe you will be driving a stake into Trek’s heart. Remember Roddenberry/Coon/Fontana and forget Michael Bay.

41. Newdivide1701 - July 18, 2014

“A bit nutty…” is very accurate.

Remember the term fan came from the word fanatic. And well let’s face it, we are nuts.

I mean we love the idea, some delusion, that we are the sole authority of what in this case Star Trek is suppose to be while in reality having a wavering clue as to what it really is.

I’ve seen this not only on Star Trek, but also with Superman Returns and Man of Steel.

42. Vulcan Soul - July 18, 2014

#23 After seeing that atrocity of a “re-imagined” ship up there again, all with those hideously oversized “sexed up” nacelles, I say:

Mr. Kirk, blow up this ship!

43. I am not Herbert - July 18, 2014

boborci talks a lot of sh*t… and that’s all it is… =(

44. Jemini - July 19, 2014

Love that parallel with Spock and why he relates to him, I get what you are saying here.
This reminds me that I always thought that in the fictional reality of trek things like racism and xenophobia probably are a lot similar to our world just instead of discriminating our own kind, here people discriminate non-terran people that are now “the other”. Uhura must have heard some ugly comments about her boyfriend being a vulcan and her choosing a mixed alien instead of a 100% human like her…while on vulcan and among vulcans we clearly saw how discriminated Amanda was and Spock too because one of his parents wasn’t vulcan. I love the scene and the way he said ‘my mother was human and earth is the only home I have left’ in the first movie..I find that part touching and bittersweet but quite symbolic of his emotional arc that here is accelerated compared to the prime reality .

As for the rest… No Nimoy or Shatner or anyone of the old actors making more cameos. They have lived their life, now let these people live theirs. We already have so many characters to develop and limited time to do so, I’d rather not have it used for the old characters I already know. I know what happpened to them but I want to know what happens to these people.

45. Jemini - July 19, 2014

PS: ‘nutty’ is most accurate LOL

46. Captain Slow - July 19, 2014

@ 44 Jemini

“We already have so many characters to develop and limited time to do so”

That’s actually a good point I hadn’t considered. Everyone wants more McCoy, but having a big Shatner subplot would make that next to impossible unless the movie was three hours long.

Also, we just had Kirk brought back from the dead in the last movie, having it happen twice in a row would be a bit unimaginative.

47. Stephan - July 19, 2014

44. Herbert

Funny. I think that when you are talking. ;-)

48. Jemini - July 19, 2014

46. Captain Slow – July 19, 2014

@ 44 Jemini

“We already have so many characters to develop and limited time to do so”

That’s actually a good point I hadn’t considered. Everyone wants more McCoy, but having a big Shatner subplot would make that next to impossible unless the movie was three hours long.

—-
yeah, I can see some of the old actors being fine with making a tiny appearance but I doubt Shatner would agree to make a small cameo. He’d want to have the same screentime and ‘importance’ in the plot that Nimoy got in the previous movies too, if not more.
I’m not here for that. Also not here for old characters or plots (or even just quotes or situations) being constantly shoehorned in the movie just because it’s the 50th anniversary.

Most of the general audience probably just want to see a sequel of the two previous movies they have watched and some closure given to these characters and story, like you expect from any trilogy. If not even a hope that the third movie can be so successful that it opens the door for more movies or inspires new series about these characters (or an alternate version of the others) I never read any of the critics or the more professional reviews asking the writers to bring back the tos characters or old stories. I feel some here ignore the core reason why the first movie was successful and positively embraced by many critics, even those who wouldn’t bet one single cent about more star trek movies. I love Nimoy but he surely wasn’t the main reason.
Though, his inclusion in the story as Spock prime did, at least, have a purpose. I felt he was a bit shoehorned in the sequel but in the first movie his character made sense and was in fact even necessary. I don’t know how one could replicate that with the other tos characters though.

49. Captain Slow - July 19, 2014

@ 48 Jemini

“He’d want to have the same screentime and ‘importance’ in the plot that Nimoy got in the previous movies too, if not more.”

I don’t have a quote handy, but I seem to recall Shatner said words to that effect in 2008 or so. And I doubt that he would feel any differently now.

50. The Keeper - July 19, 2014

Let me guess the next adventure. The Klingon’s steal the popsicle Khan and bring him to Talos 4 for much needed rest and relaxation.
The Talosians capture Khan and create a new race of super humans.
Enterprise is attacked in orbit and falls to an almost certain fiery death not before Kirk and Spock race across the ships brewery to save the day.
Mean while Chekov tries to beam out our would be heroes using the transporter but can’t get lock on them because the ship is vibrating too much.
Sulu instead beams to their location to help.
Doctor McCoy finds a tribble for no reason what so ever and uses a transwarp beaming device on them to repopulate Talos 4!

51. Tom - July 19, 2014

49 Captain Slow

Shatner does indeed have a big ego. Any role would be a pretty small one. I think a flashback could work in the context of the movie. If he did not move off his stance of 2008 then all bets would be off. If presented to him in the right way perhaps he would go for it. I recall someone asking him if he saw the scene Bob wrote for him in 09. He said he hadn’t seen it and would have to see it before making any decision. The team never showed it because they decided not to use it anyway. Would have been interested to see if he would have done it.

52. Disinvited - July 19, 2014

# 43. I am not Herbert – July 18, 2014, 47. Stephan – July 19, 2014

” boborci talks a lot of sh*t… and that’s all it is… =(” — I am not Herbert

” Funny. I think that when you are talking. ;-)” — Stephan

That’s NOT all it is:

http://news.discovery.com/videos/poop-shield-could-protect-astronauts.htm

It’s shields!

I believe Harry Balls pointed out it gives new meaning to poop deck.

53. Disinvited - July 19, 2014

oops make that Ballz

54. Tom - July 19, 2014

@ 44 Jemini

“We already have so many characters to develop and limited time to do so”

A few less FX scenes, a liitle less Keenser, One less Spock/Uhura kiss, One less brewery scene, One less Alice Eve striptease, One less kirk green alien romp. I take that back Alice, keep doing your thing. you are certainly “developed”. I am sure there is time to develop the new charcters as well as getting in a scene with Shatner and Nimoy(granted no large roles but something meaningful to the story). I think it would add a great character moment relevant to NuKirk and Spock friendship. Adds a great layer of meaning to what hopefully is a great story and movie. Yes we saw Shatner in Generations, Yes we saw Nimoy in the last 2 films. Seeing them again Together would be a special Star Trek moment acknowkedging the 50th but not impeding the movie or development of the new actors. I agree that any demand from a Shatner or Nimoy to have a major part of the plot is problematic and is ridiculous on their part. I do understand the position that it is not necessary. However it is the 50th anniversary, they are both still with us. I do not see it as a waste but a wasted opportunity if not considered

55. Disinvited - July 19, 2014

I can understand those that don’t want the next Trek movie to turn into on original BATMAN TV series (or its spinoff motion picture) or LAUGH-IN cameo fest with various actors living and dead popping their heads out various ship’s recesses and openings merely for a 50th anniversary nod.

OK, but what about something in the fx, set designs, props, costumes or other works of art on set? I mean if R2D2 can keep popping up surely there’s a way to put nods to 50 years of Trek into the background too this time around?

56. Tom - July 19, 2014

55 Disinvited

Lol. No way Bob would let that happen. Just look at the scene he wrote for Shatner for 09. Something like that which has some meaning to the theme of the movie. I always felt that the dialogue in that scene really captured the heart and soul of Star Trek.That should have been in the movie. It was a regret for Bob and he has a golden opportunity here to do something really cool that works and not a Laugh in with all the characters. i would just stop at Shatner and Nimoy. I think there will be some Easter egg props like you suggested

57. Edina Clouds - July 19, 2014

#53 oops, make that Hairy. :-p

How can we have Shat in the movie? I love the guy. He’s the reason i’m a Trek fan. But, seriously, not in this or any timeline is Chris Pine gona look that good when he’s 84. It would just pull me out of the movie seeing them together. ;))

58. Curious Cadet - July 19, 2014

@38. Ahmed,
“While Paramount is still thinking about greenlighting ST 13, Marvel announced release dates through 2019!”

Stop worrying about what other studios are doing with their franchises.

Paramount is taking its time to get it right. You know, just like Abrams and Orci took four years to deliver STID, they took their time and crafted the script to give us the best possible movie, and just look at the result … Oh wait …

59. Captain Slow - July 19, 2014

@ 55 Disinvited

“I mean if R2D2 can keep popping up surely there’s a way to put nods to 50 years of Trek into the background too this time around?”

That’s hardly comparable. R2-D2 was only in each movie for a few frames and takes no screen-time away from anything else.

60. Disinvited - July 19, 2014

#58. Captain Slow – July 19, 2014

Since that was exactly what I was suggesting, I’m not sure what you are finding it not comparable it to?

61. Captain Slow - July 19, 2014

@ 59 Disinvited

Sorry. I assumed you were comparing it to a more obvious nod such as an old actor and whatnot.

62. Ahmed - July 19, 2014

@57. Curious Cadet

Right :-)

63. smike - July 19, 2014

I’m looking forward to finally seeing some “deep space”, hopefully involving “strange new worlds” and “new life” instead of just destruction, super weapons etc… SFX on Trek should be mainly about CREATING not destroying. This is not Transformers, Star Wars etc…it’s Star Trek and none of the last couple of movies got that right… The last time we saw some exploring done on the big screen was… 1979! TMP!

However, showing the “five year mission” in one or two movies is a bit dull. I was hoping for a FYM TV show at some point. Even if there is a ST4 at some point, it’ll probably be the last one with this cast. The FYM will soon be over :-( Given they don’t follow into Marvel’s footsteps, giving us at least one movie a year! It’s not that hard to do…

64. Jemini - July 19, 2014

54. Tom – July 19, 2014

how can you know it would add a ‘great layer and meaning’ to the story if you don’t even know what kind of story they’re telling and if such cameos would even make sense there…

I find it most bizarre to imply that they should sacrifice the already limited screentime that the, you know, real characters of these movies have (that are, in large part, not so developed because they’re many and they have little time to do so) to satiate the pro-nostalgia feeling of some fans who can’t let go of the old characters and the old actors whose plot had ended a long time ago. Nimoy’s huge contribution in the reboot is still not enough…

” I think it would add a great character moment relevant to NuKirk and Spock friendship.”

and make said friendship more forced than it already is? Wasn’t Spock prime ‘you are destined to be friends’ enough for you? He has already ruined that relationship forever to me because he inevitably influenced them.
I want to see why these two specific people want to be friends (ditto for the rest of the crew) and are or will be friends, not get reminded over and over why the other two characters were friends and why, apparently, this other version of them from another reality doesn’t have the right to have the same free will that the tos characters had.

65. Admiral_Bumblebee - July 19, 2014

Make a borgified and resurrected Prime Kirk the villain with an invasion of the Borg in both universes as the plot and you would have Shatner in a big and interesting role. Having Nimoy in there wanting to help his old friend and rescue him and you would have both of the original cast in meaningful roles united at the end and “riding into the sunset”.

You could also include Picard, Data and some of the other series cast in supporting roles, helping in the fight against the Borg.

66. Matias47 - July 19, 2014

@ 58: “…they took their time and crafted the script to give us the best possible movie, and just look at the result … Oh wait …”

L …
O …
L …

67. Admiral_Bumblebee - July 19, 2014

Not in the least interested in just another (third) movie with only the nu-Trek cast. This would be just a run of the mill episode and that would be lame, especially for a movie that wants to celebrate the 50th anniversary.

68. Keachick (Rose) - July 19, 2014

Although I have suggested ideas as to how William Shatner could make an appearance playing a Kirk in this alternate universe, I do agree with Jemini. These nuTrek characters should be accorded to same free will as the original TOS characters got. There were no “prime” anybodies looking over their shoulders exerting influence, subtly or otherwise, or apparently busy trying to “fix” or “correct” anything. THERE WAS NOTHING TO FIX THEN. THERE IS NOTHING TO FIX NOW.

I don’t believe I have read anywhere from the TPTB that this third movie’s main purpose is to celebrate the 50th anniversary. This is just a wish expressed by various posters and Star Trek fans, however it is not a view that is shared by all.

69. Ahmed - July 19, 2014

@68. Keachick (Rose)

“I don’t believe I have read anywhere from the TPTB that this third movie’s main purpose is to celebrate the 50th anniversary.”

Roberto Orci: “If we’re lucky enough that everything goes right, then I’ll start to feel the pressure. Once it’s really happening, it’s like, ‘Oh, my God, the 50th anniversary! Holy, moly!’ As a writer, I feel the pressure as the returning screenwriter to this franchise. I feel it at the story level.’

Bryan Burk: “We’re definitely talking about the next one, but we haven’t talked about a release date. We don’t want to wait four years, the same amount of time between the last one and this one, but it’s going to be a big year to celebrate, hopefully.”

70. dennycranium - July 19, 2014

Mr Orci,
Please consider the following:
Hang NOBODY FROM A LEDGE EVER AGAIN, please.
Respect the universe and the physics/science, etc.
If you can beam someone down, you can beam them up.
Please NO Star Trek 90210 moments like in the last movie.
Scene in turbolift where Kirk is asking Uhura if she and spock are fighting.
Or when they are on Mudds ship. Please, no more of that.
Good luck, sir.

71. Curious Cadet - July 19, 2014

@69. Ahmed,

WHAT? I couldn’t hear you over the self-aggrandizing, hot air being spewed on this forum …

72. Keachick (Rose) - July 19, 2014

#67 – “Not in the least interested in just another (third) movie with only the nu-Trek cast. This would be just a run of the mill episode and that would be lame, especially for a movie that wants to celebrate the 50th anniversary.”

I was responding this comment as well as to what Jemini said. Perhaps it was not clear enough.

It had to do with the inclusion of other older Trek cast, as if this third movie could not be a good movie which could successfully celebrate the 50th anniversary without such inclusion, along with other ways that are hopefully being planned as I write and receive proper execution in due time.

In other words, the movie should be able to stand on its own as a good Star Trek film, irrespective of whatever else is going on.

73. Tom - July 19, 2014

64 Jemini

Correct in that I do not know the story. I would like to believe that IF they decide to do it then it would make sense in the context of the story.

I like your notion of giving the new charcters free will but realistically I cannot see them not being friends. The writers may toy with some turmoil and tension with the relationships. Just do not see the writers ultimately having Kirk and Spock ending up as something other than great friends. I think the new universe open up possibilities but there are some things in the universe that are familiar.

74. Jemini - July 20, 2014

67. Admiral_Bumblebee – July 19, 2014

Not in the least interested in just another (third) movie with only the nu-Trek cast.

—–

lol yeah, I wonder why does directors make all these Romeo and Juliet movies about that annoying dude called Romeo and that silly girl named Juliet
such a shame! why can’t them be about Macbeth or Othello, I ask. Silly directors and silly writers that force me to watch these movies.

also the other day I went watching a tennis game and I kept wondering why these silly people weren’t playing football.

75. Jemini - July 20, 2014

73. Tom – July 19, 2014

64 Jemini
” I like your notion of giving the new charcters free will but realistically I cannot see them not being friends”

I never said that they shouldn’t be. What I said is that they should be friends under their own terms and following their own paths as people.
The idea that they should be friends only because another version of them from another reality was is forced.
It doesn’t matter if they were friends in the other reality, they should become friends in this one too and they should show it rather than just say ‘they’re friends’ and let me take it so for granted.
Their relationship is the least exciting aspect to me for this very reason. I realize though that there is very little the writers can do about that but it’s the way it is.

frankly, the idea that two people having to be friends at any cost in all the realities and timeliness must be more a constant for the universe to preserve than the the whole vulcan and romulan planets and all their inhabitants, not to mention the lives of Amanda Grayson, Christoper Pike, George Kirk and the many other people supposed to live in the prime reality and that died in this one, is very pretentious to me.

76. Tom - July 20, 2014

75 Jemini

It was good that the writers took some characters and plot points and did change things up in the alternate universe. Kirk and Spock certainly do not have to be friends. In another universe they may not be. You are right though that is the way it is. It is just not something they are go to do. There are some constraints that we have to live with.

77. Trek in a cafe - July 20, 2014

The best tribute to the original series will not only exploration but extended dialog and clearly thought through drama with understandable stakes. Moments where the movie slows down and time stops. Where we really can think and we still don’t know what going to happen..,

78. Matthias - July 20, 2014

Abrams was good for re-launching Star Trek. Orci is good to continue Star Trek – in the cinemas and probably also on tv. In my opinion, Orci should be the Berman of the future – without irony! Although Berman did not always the things like Roddenberry would have done it, he brought Star Trek back for many years and in a good quality!

79. Cygnus-X1 - July 20, 2014

78. Matthias – July 20, 2014

Although Berman did not always the things like Roddenberry would have done it, he brought Star Trek back for many years and in a good quality!

Uh, not the movies, dude. And not VOY.

Berman was good enough at being an executive producer with creative people under him doing most of the heavy lifting. But when he took the creative reigns, especially in writing the movies, they didn’t turn out so good. The TNG movies on the whole were a disappointment. Even at their best, they were badly written and riddled with gaping plot holes.

VOY is also largely considered a disappointing series, though it had its moments. I would not hold up Rick Berman as a paragon of anything, really. He kept the lights on and Trek running, until finally running it into the ground with Nemesis being awful and ENT taking 2 seasons too long (some say 3) to get really good.

Truth be told DS9, for all of the good things about that series, was a step down from TNG—certainly in terms of ratings (a drop of almost 50%) and I would say also in terms of creativity and entertainment value, though perhaps that’s simply due to TNG being such a high bar.

I find DS9 much more enjoyable now that I can binge watch it on Netflix, but waiting a week for a less than satisfying episode, week after week during its original run, put me off of DS9 after the first two seasons. Whenever I talk to casual Trek fans, it’s always the same story—loved TNG, didn’t care for anything that came after it. And none of them have even seen ENT Seasons 3 or 4. They’d just already tuned out by that point.

80. Curious Cadet - July 20, 2014

@79. Cygnus-X1,
” ENT taking 2 seasons too long (some say 3) to get really good.”

The irony here is that TNG took just exactly as long to find its voice. The difference is how the world had changed. TNG was born out of a big three network monopoly, and a fledgling cable network system. By the second season of Enterprise, people were starting to record TV on their DVRs, and download media on the Internet. Berman clearly had gotten stuck in the past and become comfortable with producing Trek the way it always had been done.

81. Cygnus-X1 - July 20, 2014

80. Curious Cadet – July 20, 2014

I agree about Seasons 1 & 2 of TNG. Season 1 was just awful. I find most of it unwatchable. Compelling episodes, like Time Squared, started to crop up in Season 2.

By the second season of Enterprise, people were starting to record TV on their DVRs, and download media on the Internet. Berman clearly had gotten stuck in the past and become comfortable with producing Trek the way it always had been done.

What do you think that Berman should have done to adapt to the changing TV landscape?

82. Cygnus-X1 - July 20, 2014

Yet a couple more areas of STID where the writing is stupid:

The brig scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LThIRkpYtI

(1) Khan taunts Spock as not “savage” enough and then Spock proves him wrong when they face off later in the movie: “Mr. Spock, you can’t even break a rule; how would you be expected to break bone?!?” [we then see a one-shot of Spock for three seconds]. Perhaps you were wondering, during the fight scene at the end of the movie, why Spock did the unlikely, most uncharacteristic thing of breaking Khan’s arm? Well, he did it to prove Khan wrong: “See, I can break bone! Nanny, nanny, poo, poo!”

(2) Khan reveals that he’d hidden his 72 frozen buddies inside of the new, super high-tech torpedoes in order to then smuggle them all away. How was that supposed to go down, exactly?

SECTION 31 GUARDS: Hey, where are you going with all of those top-secret, super high-tech torpedoes? Must be six dozen of them there.

KHAN: Oh, don’t worry about it; it’s totally cool. Admiral Marcus told me to take them somewhere.

SECTION 31 GUARDS: Then how come we weren’t notified? Do you have like an official manifest or written clearance from the Admiral or something? Wait a minute…Aren’t you that unfrozen clone that Marcus has been forcing to work for him under extremely tight security because you’re a high flight risk and nobody outside of SEC 31 is supposed to know about you? Sorry dude, we’re gonna have to hold you here at gun point while we call Marcus. I know you’re super strong and all, but there are 4 of us with phasers set to kill pointed right at you, so I wouldn’t try anything if I were you.

Though, I must add that acting, photography and slick production values all work well together to create a feeling of tension in the following scene.

83. Jack - July 21, 2014

For God’s sake, no more nods to 50 years of Trek — doing a $200-million movie set in frickin’ TOS is enough of a nod.

And I really hope Orci isn’t listening to fans this time around. He should stay the heck away from this site for the next two years. I know, the chances of that are slim…

84. Jack - July 21, 2014

I’d also argue that Star Trek wasn’t about exploration — it was about the characters. Exploring the human condition, sure. In that Trek VI podcast, they made a great point about the characters still discovering themselves — and the audience doing the same — 25 years in, and how great that was.

I think we need these characters to evolve naturally I their own — and not me essRily make the same decisions and follow the same paths we watched the TOS mains follow already. Take advantage of the strange new world of the characters’ future.

85. Disinvited - July 21, 2014

#82. Cygnus-X1 – July 20, 2014

I’ve covered this before in a previous chain but maybe you missed it. You have to recall that in Khan’s previous two outings he was all about stealing the ship. Clearly, he anticipated the torpedoes being loaded on The Vengeance at some point which he then fully intended to later commandeer as his and their’s means of escape.

You need further proof? Khan goes rogue and nearly kills Marcus at the conference so you’d think by the time he watermelon’s the Admiral’s head that Khan’s every possible access has been purged from Vengeance’s systems but a few seconds later Khan’s in the captain’s chair taking potshots at the E with the ship clearly obeying his every command.

86. Sky Lukewalker - July 21, 2014

Have you read that the plot of Star Wars Episode VII allegedly involves Luke Skywalkers severed hand and his old lightsaber drifting through space and landing on the planet Tattooine where the new heroes find them and want to take them back to it’s owner?
Of course hand and saber don’t burn up in the atmosphere of the planet…

Is Bob Orci secretly writing the script for Star Wars Episode VII after all? ;)

87. Keachick (Rose) - July 21, 2014

#84 – You make good points.

88. Curious Cadet - July 21, 2014

@85. Disinvited,
“I’ve covered this before in a previous chain but maybe you missed it.”

Well I certainly missed it, because I’ve been espousing that particular scenario since day one, namely because nearly everybody who saw the film seemingly missed it too.

It’s totally convoluted, but perfectly executable plan. It unfortunately is totally manufactured feeling and essentially back-filled in from the moment somebody thought it would be delicious irony to make Khan’s own people the instrument of his destruction. It’s Seinfeld writing … Who recalls the episode where Kramer tells the story of slipping in the mud and ruining the pants he was wearing, the very pants he was returning to the store? It’s dripping with irony, but never mind it makes no sense — how was Kramer going to get home from the store after he returned the pants he was wearing? It doesn’t matter because the irony of the story kept everyone distracted through the entire episode.

Have you read the Khan comic? (Ha, punny) I haven’t, and frankly have no interest after seeing the predictable and hackneyed way in which Orci decided to reconcile Khan’s appearance … Indeed he made it a focal point after publicly deriding all of his detractors over that issue. But, I wonder if he explains the plan there?

The biggest problem with the torpedoes is that the audience is never filled in on what’s going on. It’s just bad writing … No horrible writing (or editing) that glosses over Khan’s “genius” in the story and requires the audience to fill in the backstory to appreciate it, assuming anybody actually cares.

I will address the point Cygnus raises about how Khan was going to do it, as Dmduncan first proposed it as a solution to the same question I was raising — how would Khan do it? In the comic preview I learned that Orci took the same old tired trope that in the big military bureaucracy, the right hand simply didn’t know what the left hand was doing (dmduncan possibly even unwittingly handed that idea to Orci right here on these forums). Khan hacked into the computer to send orders which appeared to be from Marcus and the Section 31 worker bees merely followed them. All I have to say about that dull piece of fiction is, Marcus deserved everything he got because he really was an idiot if Khan could pull that off in any way without Marcus finding out.

Again it’s all perfectly serviceable, if grafted onto the film like a big toe in place of one’s nose. But the sin of omission dooms them. It’s a case of the writers and director taking short hand with something they know intimately, at the expense of confusing their audience. It’s a beginners mistake, and shouldn’t have been made on a $200 mm feature film with 4 years to make.

89. IDIC Lives! - July 21, 2014

#82 Cygnus X1

I commented more on this on the “Orci Says More Canon Next Time” thread but I have to add, how did Khan get his buddies into the torpedoes in the first place? He had an entire Star Fleet warehouse to himself where they were stored by Marcus OR he pushed each cryo-unit in a wheelbarrow (ok, used a transporter) from where Marcus had them under no (??) security to where Khan could go to work all by himself, placing each one into a hollowed out torpedo? Or a torpedo so “new” that it happens to have a spot in it for a functioning cryo-unit?

Handy that in nuTrek, cryo-units look like caskets, somehow all the technology is within the coffin. Whereas in TOS, they approached the sleeper units as is still envisioned by NASA for space-going sleeper units, which are NOT deep freezes.

Or were Khan’s buddies not under Marcus’ control, were they on a sleeper ship somewhere and then Khan hauled them into the torpedoes? Did only Khan get awakened by Marcus? Where actually were his buddies in the first place?

I don’t expect to have to read a comic book to find out (even if “answers” are dreamed up), as I sit there in the theater, completely confused and dumbfounded.

This was a big budget film with time to make real quality. I know, I know, they got in a time crunch, whatever. As Keachick says, “Frankly, so what?”

“So what?” means mediocrity and often, downright stupidity.

90. Disinvited - July 21, 2014

#87. Curious Cadet – July 21, 2014

Hmmm…I could have sworn you and I agreed this whole superior intellect’s solution to “rescuing” those he loves as family by exposing them to even more danger from random happenstance by hiding them in munitions is screwy, etc.

I was just trying to explain to Cygnus what I surmised had to be on the writers’ minds as they wrote it — in spite of the fact that Paramount didn’t want the film goer to have to know Khan’s M.O.

Fascinating that one of them claims Khan’s plan was to forge shipping orders for state of the art secret weapons. I mean why would he have to put them in the torpedoes for that plan? Just put his people in the torpedoes’ shipping containers sans torpedoes. I mean how many people guarding the place would even have security clearance to see the torpedoes let alone allow them to open the crates and inspect top secret weapons?

91. TUP - July 21, 2014

So…ten years has passed between the end of STID and the beginning of the third movie? So they are on a ten year long five-year mission?

92. Cmd.Bremmon - July 21, 2014

I don’t know why the writers of these movies and TV shows can’t do some test screening at the script level; it would solve so many issues (Insurrection is too boring, Into Darkness doesn’t make sense, etc). I thought they finally figured that out with Star Trek 2009 working – not quite sure why it fell apart on Into Darkness.

Above all there was no excuse for Enterprise not getting it right off the bat. Voyager had made it abundantly clear that the TNG universe was just too boring to continue where the holodeck is more exciting than the technobabble and the extremely bland alien of the day which is why they went prequel to begin with… DS9 showed that long thought out story arcs that shook the foundations of Trek worked along with alien characters from races with actual culture (homeworld, religion, beliefs, something different than the blandness that was TNG, etc). Isn’t that why the powers that be selected a prequel in the first place??

Humans could be flawed (oh no, first contact gone horribly wrong, if only there was a prime directive), the economy would be in play (we need more dilithium crystals, colony XYZ is starving!!), the technology isn’t that great (disease, having to shoot to kill, ship breaks down, no beaming to save you), conflict (war with the Klingons, Romulans, how are these primitive humans going to make it??) and differing cultures (warrior emotional Andorians, logical pacifist Vulcans, isolationist Tellerites – how are they ever going to work together?? Maybe those flawed illogical humans somewhere in between can make it happen?). Canon even made it clear that the ships were primitive to the point they used nuclear weaponry.

So why, why would you write your pilot episode to have peace between the Federation and Klingons off that bat, have transporters, give them phasers on stun and make the Enterprise the Akira?!?!? The whole series after that was essentially ruined. They took what was supposed to be an exciting disastrous first contact with huge ramification for the future and made it boring, boring, boring.

You would not think you could make that boring that if you tried yet some how the Enterprise pilot succeeded in ruining the entire prequel concept. The only reason I can think of is that the writers just wouldn’t let go of TNG until they were shown the door in the third season. It didn’t have to end that way with some screenings (any Trek fan I believe would have brought up the issue of first contact with the Klingons).

93. TUP - July 21, 2014

I hope a couple of the new discoveries Orci mentioned is a coherent plot and respect for canon.

94. Jack - July 21, 2014

93. Me, I think canon (their reliance on it as a substitute for storytelling) was a big part of my frustration with STID, that and this cockamamie Sydney Field destiny crutch. Which is basically, all that happened before will happen again (Orci throws in bullshit QM reasons, and I can’t tell if he’s trolling, really buys it or both) but without the story doing the work to get you there. Sure, archetypes and age-old dramatic devices are great — but Kirk encountering Khan solely because it happened before is just lazy.

And I wish Orci was writing this thing like the comics don’t exist (so far, the comics have been a great opportunity to fill in the movie plot holes… why worry about the story making sense when you can retcon the sh*t out of it later on).

Things I liked about STID

1) no forced Shakespeare quotes/literary references… they worked when Meyer used ‘em, although by Trek VI, he was overusing them

2) the Nibiru visuals/aliens. We got a strange new world.

3) Most of Pike’s lines (possibly because Greenwood can sell anything.

4) the android GATT bald guy (intriguing sci-fi touch), oh, and that cool hoop thing that McCoy used to reach through the glass

5) more women on the bridge actually doing stuff, including a black woman at helm

6) subtle details riffing on past Trek without bonking you on the head with it, like the blown up Klingon moon and… well, I guess that’s it.

7) Er, hover stretchers in the hospital (I know, I’m, er, stretching), but the art direction/fx generally was good and Abrams has included lots of cool futuristic touches. Hopefully Orci’s Trek will look good and give us a real sense of being in the future (something TNG and beyond we’re terrible at)…and not just standard tv/movie futuristic touches, like animated holograms… this is really a continuation of point 4

8) Alice Eve pretending to examine the torpedo but really just twirling her hair or chewing her nails or something…

95. IDIC Lives! - July 21, 2014

#94 Jack

#94 Jack

Hi.
I’ll agree with you on these:
1)
2) STID does start out hopefully if a bit overly schmaltzily
3) Greenwood is such a GOOD actor
5)
7) Well, at times

I have to ask, is it good that Alice Eve comes off like this in every scene? because she does, IMO.

So, even though 4) and 6) stand between us, we do reach, man, as that space hippy said long ago.

96. Tom - July 21, 2014

New discoveries will help in that there wil be nothng to compare it too. When we see Khan in STID we autmatically think and compare to TOS Khan. In this film if we get something totally original, the character reactions and development will be unpredictable and new.

97. IDIC Lives! - July 21, 2014

Sorry, Jack, I think there is only one of you (double #94 Jack).

98. Keachick (Rose) - July 21, 2014

@ IDIC – Please refrain from quoting me, particularly when you take what I have written out of context, in order to prove…what exactly?

Yet more snide remarks directed at me – I should really keep a log but what would be the point? It is a matter of “Frankly, so what?” at this point.

UGH!!!

99. TUP - July 21, 2014

Cygnus – regarding the changing TV landscape, ofcourse Berman could not get networks to accept the idea that the Nielson ratings were flawed and that PVR viewership was important.

But the way to combat people not watching live is to make the product compelling. I watched Young and the Restless for 23 years. In the past six months I have stopped. But I remember racing home from school so I didnt miss it. Then when I worked, I’d record it and watch it as soon as I got home. Then I PVR’ed it and watched it everyday, then saved a week’s worth. Now, I still record it, but barely watch it and usually delete it or watch an episode if I “hear” about something interesting.

When people PVR shows, it becomes easier to miss them. Making it compelling is the only real way to combat that. Enterprise was the opposite of compelling, just like Voyager was. Trek hasnt been compelling since DS9.

100. Cygnus-X1 - July 21, 2014

89. IDIC Lives! – July 21, 2014

how did Khan get his buddies into the torpedoes in the first place?

That, too.

It’s not like Khan was smuggling out some small items that he could surreptitiously sneak into his pockets while the people supervising him and his work were looking away momentarily. Khan was the most dangerous, high-risk thing at Section 31. They wouldn’t have let him anywhere near his 72 frozen buddies. And if, for some reason, Khan did manage to get ahold the 72 Augments, Sec 31 would have gone on lockdown as soon as someone realized that the 72 Augments were missing. They’d have started searching the place and not let anyone leave until they found the 72 Augments. And with their bio-detectors, I imagine they’d have found the 72 Augments without too much trouble. The whole premise for both his and Marcus’s plan just seems ridiculous.

101. Cygnus-X1 - July 21, 2014

85. Disinvited – July 21, 2014

I responded to this post, but I think it’s in moderation.

The short of it is—remember the part where Scotty pitches a fit about “72 torpedoes of unknown payload?”

Well, the people loading the torpedoes on the Vengeance, if that had happened, would have known about their payloads in very specific detail.

102. Cygnus-X1 - July 21, 2014

99. TUP – July 21, 2014

Sure, Must see TV is better than “Don’t really need to see TV.

Enterprise was the opposite of compelling, just like Voyager was. Trek hasnt been compelling since DS9.

We can agree on VOY.

For me, DS9 has its compelling peaks—the Season 5/6 cliffhanger, and then the first 6 episodes in Season 6 until Sisko & crew regain control of the station. There are others, mostly in the second half of the series. There’s good stuff in the first 3 Seasons, too, but I wouldn’t call it “compelling.”

With the benefit of being able to binge watch it, the slow, deliberate character arcs of DS9 pay off more and I don’t mind the lack of other interesting stuff going on. But during its original run, I just did not have anything close to the patience for it.

Coming off of TNG, where each episode was pretty much self-contained and so many of them paid you off big time by the end of the episode, I just didn’t get DS9 at all. For the first couple of seasons, it was mostly the exact opposite of what I loved about TNG. Not much in the way of mind-bending plot concepts, mysteries to be solved or hypothetical science—DS9 was all about character arcs, character studies, interpersonal relationships and socio-political issues. TNG had all of that as well, but it was balanced out with the other stuff. Whereas TNG was a more versatile show, DS9 was more focused and more deliberate in its pacing. There’s some great stuff in DS9, but taken as a whole it’s much better than having to wait a week for each episode. Too many of the episodes just don’t pay off enough by themselves to justify the wait. As I sit here typing this, I can think of so many TNG episodes that are just great and really deliver. I can’t think of as many DS9 episodes like that. As I said, for me DS9 is much more appealing taken as a whole than most of the episodes are standing alone.

ENT Seasons 3 and 4 I find very enjoyable—considerably more so than DS9. People complain about the Xindi War being too obvious an analogue of 9/11 and so forth, but that doesn’t bother me. There’s a bit of silliness in the Aquatics, but the other species I find compelling. The Reptilians are downright menacing and creepy. The actor who plays Degra is great. I totally buy his performance in every episode. Even Archer becoming increasingly desperate and straying from the lighted path I found compelling. And the whole Delphic Expanse concept I found very compelling—the mystery of it and what’s out there—that’s the spirit of TOS right there. DS9 was obviously better for character development than ENT where 2 or 3 of the regulars were largely expendable. But, still, there’s some nice T’Pol and Trip development. Even Malcolm gets more interesting in Season 3 vis-a-vis Major Hayes. And then in Season 4, of course, we got the fleshing out of the Vulcans and Andorians, which I really enjoy.

103. Disinvited - July 21, 2014

# 100. Cygnus-X1 – July 21, 2014

“Khan was the most dangerous, high-risk thing at Section 31. They wouldn’t have let him anywhere near his 72 frozen buddies.” — Cygnus-X1

Hey, I agree but under that security estimation they wouldn’t have let him anywhere near information about transwarp transporting either — let alone the working prototype portable version thereof.

And one has to ask, why didn’t he just transwarpport his fellow Khansicles away to somewhere safe to begin with, instead of his elaborate subterfuge? Heck, the minute he got first access to them why didn’t he tag their suspended animation units with some sort of device (viridium patches?) so he could keep track of them at all times, instead of buffoonishly assuming they were later destroyed to begin with?

104. Disinvited - July 21, 2014

# 101. Cygnus-X1 – July 21, 2014

” Well, the people loading the torpedoes on the Vengeance, if that had happened, would have known about their payloads in very specific detail.” — Cygnus-X1

The minute the shuttle carrying them landed in the cargo bay Khan would have made his move. He wouldn’t have waited for the Chief Engineer to inspect and sign for them as they were being unloaded. Besides, in top secret operations, knowledge is compartmentalized — not everyone on board knew every top secret thing.

It is interesting that when Khan confiscated the torpedoes from Spock that he beamed them right into their lock and loaded launch tubes with no ill-effect to the Vengeance. It gives me pause to wonder if Vengeance’s engines are immune to Scotty’s concerns — in which case would V even follow the same protocol? Also, if Khan had followed Scotty’s protocol when he took the torpedoes from Spock, would he have been able to do anything about it?

105. P Technobabble - July 21, 2014

I’m looking forward to the “deep space” thing. Take us on a Magical Mystery Tour, Bob.

106. Cygnus-X1 - July 21, 2014

103. Disinvited – July 21, 2014

Hey, I agree but under that security estimation they wouldn’t have let him anywhere near information about transwarp transporting either — let alone the working prototype portable version thereof.

And with that security estimation Khan wouldn’t have been able to get onto the Vengeance. (Wait, how did Scotty get onto the Vengeance?) I guess there’s just no security at Section 31. In which case, why did Khan even bother with the whole cloak & dagger plan of hiding the cryotubes inside of the torpedoes? Seems like he could have just strolled out with the cryotubes on a wheeled cargo mover with a sheet draped over it.

SEC 31 GUARDS: Hey, what’s under that sheet?

KHAN:What sheet? Oh, this? This is disaster relief for the Vulcan orphans. Marcus told me to bring it to them like. Yeah, he said just take any ship.

SEC 31 GUARDS: …but don’t be gone too long, right? Haha, Admiral Marcus is a ball-buster, ay!

KHAN:His favorite piece of music is the Nutcracker Suite!

SEC 31 GUARDS:Haha…good times! Oh, one more thing…Somebody accessed the top secret transwarp being files without authorization. That wasn’t you, right?

KHAN:Nope.

SEC 31:OK, you’re cleared to leave, then.

And one has to ask, why didn’t he just transwarpport his fellow Khansicles away to somewhere safe to begin with, instead of his elaborate subterfuge? Heck, the minute he got first access to them why didn’t he tag their suspended animation units with some sort of device (viridium patches?) so he could keep track of them at all times, instead of buffoonishly assuming they were later destroyed to begin with?

Gah, you’re right. Yet another problem caused by the duffel-bag transporter conceit.

107. Jemini - July 22, 2014

Here I held a tiny hope that what happened to vulcan would be touched upon in terms of how it might have drastically changed a lot of things, and not glossed over completely. Someone mentioned the comics but really without those you wouldn’t even understand that Spock was possibly experiencing the effects of post trumatic stress disorder. I’m glad they exist but I totally agree that people shouldn’t need to read them to get some things happening in the movies. I wonder if boborci is still following them and helping the writer by approving what kind of stories he can tell. He must be quite busy right now where can he find the time? Do the comics still put little hints of the movie?

I also wonder why we don’t see so much of Spock alien heritage. Like why Spock never kisses Uhura the vulcan way too? lol I know that vulcans are humanoid and spock’s parents did more than touching fingers… and I know that the general audience relates to a human kiss or hug not a constructed alien gesture that means nothing to us… Still, it’s not impossible to put little hints of the vulcan side beyond the whole ‘vulcans are logical’. I get that he embraces his human side with her and then he’s a vulcan the rest of the time and it’s great and fitting but I think he’d want to also share with a significant other things that are part of his non-terran culture and after all his GF is someone who studies alien cultures and languages…
I don’t know, I guess I’m just curious about the differences. For example vulcans are touch-telepaths how does that ability play in their relationships?

108. Jemini - July 22, 2014

Aside from the vulcans I guess I’m also open about seeing aliens that are truly alien. Imagine Kirk (or better yet Bones) meeting some alien and he shakes their hand without knowing that in their culture it’s a great offence or a marriage proposal lol

109. Curious Cadet - July 22, 2014

@106. Cygnus-X1,
“Yet another problem caused by the duffel-bag transporter conceit.”

Correction: Transwarp transporter conceit.

Look, I’m not going to defend STIDs litany of problems, the biggest of which is the failure to explain coherently many of the concepts they present on screen. But you guys are really being too hard on the Khan’s plan thing.

Lets put this in another context — a German torpedo plant where concentration camp prisoners are being used as slave labor. A sympathetic German officer decides to smuggle out as many of the workers as possible. So he formulates a plan where he fabricates some paperwork that sends the usually well monitored torpedoes to a temporary storage facility overnight where the prisoners secretly climb inside. Then he has them sent on their way to a submarine, assigning himself as an escort. At one inspection point a suspicious soldier opens one to investigate but finds only active torpedo parts (concealing the prisoner). The torpedoes arrive on the submarine, and before the sub enters enemy territory, the officer opens the torpedoes and he and the prisoners commandeer the sub, and go sailing off to England and salvation. Yes it’s a convoluted plot, that stretches believability, but this is a typical Hollywood story that would have been nominated for Oscars.

As for not just beaming them straight to Klingon with the portable Transwarp technology — how about a dampening field to prevent top secrets being beamed out of Section 31?

Bottom line, there’s nothing inherently wrong with Khan’s plan, except they didn’t explain how it should have worked, and didn’t give enough information to allow the audience to reasonably assume how it worked.

So your main criticism holds — the audience has to do the heavy lifting (some hernia inducing lifting I might add) to make Orci’s convoluted story work, and that’s a hallmark of poor writing. But the plan itself? Not totally implausible, with a hint of originality, and well within the standards set by Hollywood. Could they have done better? You betcha. A lot better.

110. TUP - July 22, 2014

The question as to why Spock and uhura are never shown rubbing fingers, do you really think orci or his buddies have any idea what you’re talking about? Come on….not a clue.

DS9, for me, was the only Trek series that I was practically dying to watch every week. yeah, the first couple of seasons were ho-hum as all Trek was, finding its way, but once they did, I loved it. Great characters. great writing. Even the bad episodes were pretty good. Those are the guys that needed to be tapped to show-run Enterprise.

111. Cygnus-X1 - July 22, 2014

109. Curious Cadet – July 22, 2014

Well, but your German concentration camp example has as the smuggler an officer with clearance to falsify documents and carry out the plan duplicitously. My point was that Khan is, without question, the absolute least trusted individual at Section 31. Not only is he not filling out any transfer paperwork, but he’s never unmonitored for a second. And if someone false asleep on the watch and Khan gets a chance to sneak his buddies into the torpedoes somehow, whoever was in charge of the 72 cryotubes is gonna know as soon as they go missing. Putting aside for the moment that the security on the 72 cryotubes should be absolutely impenetrable (imagine trying to sneak all of the gold out of Fort Knox in the middle of the night without anyone noticing)….

So, how does Khan steal the 72 cryotubes, hide them in the torpedoes, dispose of what he’s removed from the torpedoes (and where does he hide all of that “payload” stuff, exactly? He throws it into the rubbish bin in the Section 31 men’s room?), such that the torpedoes are transferred out of Section 31 and onto the Vengeance before anyone notices that the cryotubes are all missing and before anyone notices all of the “payload” stuff lying around where ever Khan tries to hide it AND then manage to sneak out of Section 31, himself, and onto the Vengeance, which he must then seize control of before the cryotubes are reported missing and/or the extracted torpedo payload stuff is noticed?

I mean, does that all require some pretty lax security at Section 31, or what!

For a top-secret agency that has managed to build a super humungous secret starship with technology advanced well beyond anything in Above Board Starfleet, not to mention discovering Khan and his 72 buddies and keeping them all secret while Khan, the most dangerous man on Earth, is enslaved and forced to develop the aforementioned super advanced technology—again, all of which is kept top secret from the very service of which Section 31 is a part, i.e. Starfleet—Section 31 sure has some piss poor security when the plot requires it!

112. Cygnus-X1 - July 22, 2014

P.S. I realize that Khan wasn’t able to carry out his plan past the point of stealing the 72 cryotubes, hiding them inside the torpedoes, and then escaping from Section 31.

My original point was that, if security at Section 31 is so lax that Khan is able to steal the 72 cryotubes, remove their payloads (which he is clearly not allowed to do), hide the cryotubes inside the torpedoes and then escape, he should have just bypassed the whole torpedo smuggling part of his plan and simply tried to escape with the 72 cryotubes which he’s just managed somehow to steal.

But, of course, that wasn’t Khan’s plan because the writers wanted the cryotubes inside of the torpedoes as part of Marcus’s ridiculous plan to leave 72 extremely dangerous individuals alive and put them into the hands of Captain Kirk, trusting that Kirk would carry out his orders to the letter, instead of Marcus simply killing the 72 Augments quickly and easily in their cryotubes at Section 31.

113. Cygnus-X1 - July 22, 2014

110. TUP – July 22, 2014

DS9, for me, was the only Trek series that I was practically dying to watch every week. yeah, the first couple of seasons were ho-hum as all Trek was, finding its way, but once they did, I loved it. Great characters. great writing. Even the bad episodes were pretty good. Those are the guys that needed to be tapped to show-run Enterprise.

Well, there’s a lot of great stuff in DS9, particularly in the later half of the series. Ziyal’s death scene might be the most emotionally moving scene in all of TV Trek for me, and that whole episode and subsequent mini-arc, as I mentioned, is great.

There does seem to be two varieties of Trek fan, in terms of being a DS9 person vs. being a TNG person. The way that you describe your excitement about DS9 is how I felt about TNG once it got going. I couldn’t wait until Sunday to watch the new episodes and wouldn’t miss it for anything.

I have come to love how different DS9 is from TNG. DS9 lost nearly half the TNG audience, but they stuck to their vision and didn’t compromise the show in order to try and regain the lost viewers. As I said, it’s a very different style of show from TNG, entirely about human issues with far less science and far fewer mystery-solving episodes. I find the differences between the DS9 and TNG formulas very interesting and somewhat difficult to discern. The premise of VOY seems to have been a return to the TNG form, but instead of TNG’s A-Team of writers, VOY seems to have had the leftovers from DS9.

ENT was then an attempt at yet another new form of show—neither a return to TNG nor DS9. From the beginning it was always a wonderful looking show with the best production values up to that time in Trek TV. One way they went wrong with ENT is that they had characters who were expendable, as opposed to DS9 where all of the characters were very thoughtfully fleshed out and developed. Again, I’m at a loss to discern exactly how the ENT formula was different from TNG and DS9, though I sense that it was.

114. TUP - July 22, 2014

Dont get me wrong, I loved TNG too. I think TNG would have been as great as DS9 to me had the stories been more episodic in nature. I thinm the difference was, TNG was about the event in question whereas DS9 was about the people experiencing the event in question. Thats a generalization ofcourse and the actors in TNG made the parts their own and added personal touches. I always found with Enterprise it didnt really matter if the writer was brand new with no clue, the writing was that bland. TNG and DS9 had personality traits that were apparent from episode to episode, with DS9 being the more obvious.

Enterprise was bad on pretty much every level. Bakula is a fine actor and I loved Quantum Leap, but he was awful on Enterprise. One dimentional writing/directing/acting. And ofcourse, it all began with the execution of the premise which was incredibly flawed.

It was like the people in charge had the beginnings of a great concept but just didnt have the energy or desire to pull it off. You could tell they had been involved with Trek for too long and werent excited by it anymore. Every episode became paint-by-numbers. Not until the creative changes did Enterprise beging to live up to it’s potential but by then it was too late.

115. IDIC Lives! - July 22, 2014

#114 TUP

My sentiments exactly–regarding the other thread.:-)

116. Cygnus-X1 - July 22, 2014

114. TUP – July 22, 2014

Not until the creative changes did Enterprise beging to live up to it’s potential but by then it was too late.

But, again, think about when that was…Either third or fourth season, depending on your taste. For me, Season 3 is when ENT starting getting good. And that’s pretty much par for the course with respect to TNG & DS9.

TNG Season 1 and at least half of Season 2 are pretty awful. I won’t even watch Season 1. DS9 Seasons 1 and 2 are better than those of TNG, but still inferior to the rest of DS9. VOY was pretty tired and disappointing all the way through, with some bright patches here and there. The premise of the show had a lot of promise as did the concepts for the episodes, but too often they were just not well written, for whatever reason.

So, ENT taking two seasons to get good is not at all unusual. And when I speak positively about ENT, I’m usually talking about Seasons 3 and 4.

TNG was about the event in question whereas DS9 was about the people experiencing the event in question.

I was thinking along these lines as well. Actually, I was thinking Subjective vs. Objective, where TNG had more of an objective focus or point of view. A natural phenomenon that the crew must figure out how to cope with, a mystery that the crew must solve—these episode premises were much more ingredients of TNG than of DS9, and that’s also why science is a more prevalent ingredient of TNG, science being objective and dealing with objects.

ENT seems to have tried to be a hybrid of TNG and DS9, with more science/mystery/exploration/objective phenomena than DS9, but more serial character development and focus on human experience than TNG. The three-episode arc of The Forge, Awakening and Kir’Shara in Season 4 is, I think, a good example of ENT as a hybrid of DS9 and TNG. The whodunnit mystery and the investigation of that crime, with all of the science involved, is very much in the spirit of TNG, while the socio-political issue of the Syrrannites vis-a-vis Vulcan society as well as the mysticism of the katra and so forth feels like DS9, though the moral examination and indictment of the Head of Vulcan High Command is reminiscent again of TNG.

117. Jamie - July 22, 2014

Whoops, is Sulu going to turn rogue Mr. Orci?! ;) YES PLEASE

118. Curious Cadet - July 23, 2014

@112. Cygnus-X1,
“But, of course, that wasn’t Khan’s plan because the writers wanted the cryotubes inside of the torpedoes as part of Marcus’s ridiculous plan.”

This is really the bottom line, isn’t it? The story was back-filled to achieve a particular result, and therefore not thought out logically. Therefore, they weren’t able to offer the audience an explanation in the actual film, it took a comic book to help map it out.

And that’s where you’re missing out — Orci has already presented a plausible explanation for everything you deride about Khan’s plan in the Khan comic, which I take it you didn’t read. I’m not saying its great, just that it’s plausible. Going back to my Nazi concentration camp analogy — just take a cue from Stalag 17, the Great Escape or even Hogan’s Heroes: if not an actual German guard, a prisoner manipulating the system, and dressing up like a Nazi soldier. Or, one of the Jewish Ghetto Police the Germans trusted to help run the camp, befriended by a sympathetic Nazi (nobody said Khan did it by himself — Lt. McGivers come to mind?). All of this would be believable in context of such a movie.

Either way, Orci’s solution is reasonable if achingly derivative — then again I’m not sure Orci has written anything that isn’t patently derivative of something, if not outright plagiarized (cough, The Island, cough). And it’s this: Marcus wiped Khan’s memory and re-programmed him as John Harrison, complete with a brand new life. Therefore Khan became a totally trusted and controllable agent of Section 31. What Khan did, he did while pretending to be the dutiful and loyal agent Marcus believed he had created, after Khan’s superior genes reversed the programming. And he did it by secretly manipulating the computers, bypassing security protocols and even manipulating the surveillance Section 31 would have logically maintained on Khan, if not all of their agents. Then he sent orders seemingly sent by Marcus himself, and voila, he managed to get his people into the stealth torpedoes he designed and destined for the Vengeance which he also designed. All of this was Khan’s plan from the beginning, but we didn’t get a whiff of this from the movie.

And that’s the real problem here … There’s nothing in the movie to explain what Khan does, we get a methodical depiction of his destruction of Section 31, yet the rest of his rampage is seemingly off the cuff, with no explanation as to how it could have happened, and once he confesses to being Khan, it seems even more unbelievable, but once Spock outs him at the end, it just seems like you’ve been watching a whole different movie up until that point. And that’s just for the non-Star Trek fans … for those of us who know Khan, it’s a train wreck.

119. TUP - July 23, 2014

Cygnus, thats a good point. In the case of Enterprise though, i think the timing was coincedence.

Personally, I thought the Xindi arc was a step back. It was a desperation move on Berman’s part to take what he thought made DS9 so good (the war story) and execute it without any of the depth or interest that actually made DS9 so good.

Berman thought it was the concept and not the writing that made DS9 interesting so he thought anyone could write it. He was wrong.

Had Enterprise Season 4 actually happened during Season 3, the series might have lasted a few more years.

But even then the core concept was flawed so it was difficult to repair. The sandbox they were playing in had already been sullied so even if they built nice sand castles, they had the stink on them. By the time they brought in fresh sand, all the kids had moved on to a new playground.

120. Cygnus-X1 - July 23, 2014

118. Curious Cadet – July 23, 2014

Well, it doesn’t surprise me that Orci explained it all in a subsequent comic book. The whole plot is very comic-book-like.

MARCUS: If Khan wants his 72 friends back so badly, then I’m gonna give him what he wants. Let’s see how he feels about his 72 buddies when they’re raining down on him in the form of torpedoes! I’ll give Khan what he wants, alright… And then some! Muhuhuhahahaha!!!!

121. Cygnus-X1 - July 23, 2014

119. TUP – July 23, 2014

Personally, I thought the Xindi arc was a step back. It was a desperation move on Berman’s part to take what he thought made DS9 so good (the war story) and execute it without any of the depth or interest that actually made DS9 so good.

Interesting…

Can you elaborate a bit on what you think the Dominion War had that the Xindi arc was lacking?

Also, how do you think that the core concept of ENT was flawed?

122. Curious Cadet - July 24, 2014

@120. Cygnus-X1,
“The whole plot is very comic-book-like.”

Yes, and on that we can both agree. Orci is writing Transformers for Star Trek.

My guess is that Orci’s 5 year mission movie is going to be much closer to The Apple than The Galileo Seven.

By the way, even the comic story is badly written … Marcus actually says he knows Khan will eventually get his memory back … And yet he still does little to secure anything from Khan, much less Khan himself. And while I understand hacked computer systems, with something as important as the 72 cryotubes, Marcus doesn’t have a standing order to personally alert him in the event of anything concerning those tubes, regardless of how official any instructions may look? Forget Khan, what if someone else in Section 31 decides to hijack them and build their own uber-army?

Your criticisms are valid (as if you had any doubt), just not entirely for the reasons you think. Poor executions of the best ideas can often appear like a flawed concept in the first place. But retconing the story after the fact just ads insult to injury, and poorly executing the explanation is pouring salt into the festering wound.

And frankly Orci lost a lot of my respect by even addressing this issue in the comics, after publicly making such a big deal about how Khan’s skin color was irrelevant, indeed inappropriate to make him dark skinned, and then condescendingly defending the choices made in the movie did not require an explanation for thinking audiences. Whatever other weaknesses can be pinned to Orci, hypocrite is chief among them.

123. TUP - July 24, 2014

The basic premise of Enterprise was the most interesting idea for Star Trek since TNG (I include DS9 in there as well as the Space Station idea was boring on paper and in the first couple of seasons, but the excellent writing, acting and storylines vaslty improved what was their own flawed idea).

The prequel was exactly what Star Trek needed. Where it was flawed in how it was executed. I supose thats not a shot at the core idea but Berman’s core idea of a prequel that looks, sounds, feels like a sequal and rehases ideas was poor.

Season 4 got it right as a true prequel. Personally, I would have made the entire first season more about the development of the ship (which shouldnt have been called Enterprise but I understand why they did so). The show should have had more political intrique, more conflict. I didnt mind the basic premise that Vulcans were less than supportive but there wasnt much sunstance there.

As for the Xindi arc, it was just poorly written. perhaps I need to watch it again because, to be honest, its the season I saw the least of owing to my abject boredom with it. I found ideas and performances didnt flow organically. Archer “tortured” a prisoner for information because it was shocking not because it really flowed. And then it didnt seem to have a lasting impact unless there was a scene where they wanted to show the effect the situation had. But in those cases, it was manufactured.

I thought the Xindi as a species was uninteresting. The effects were poor. The end result of a Xindi weapons developer who has a crises of conscience just wasnt that interesting. It was too much of an eye-rolling commentary by rich left wing hollywood. And it drives me nuts when Trek aliens are just like us with the same voices, feelings, inflections etc. Season 3 was all very forgetable.

DS9’s war arc had real lasting effects from episode to episode, political and military intrigue, plot twists that made sense. When Sisko did things you wouldnt expect from a Starfleet Captain, it seemed to come from a place of real organic development. It just seemed more real. Even the lighthearted moments had reasons to exist. it was just better writing and acting all around.

Enterprise really had weak writing, weak directing and weak performances.

124. The TOS Purist aka The Purolator - July 24, 2014

I just want things to look less like “Mass Effect” and “Star Wars” and more like TOS. Not EXACTLY like TOS, of course – but just like how their colorful uniforms are recognizable as TOS, just “amped up” for the big screen. Ditch the iBridge and Budgineering and the cartoony exterior for something more true to the source material, but maybe with a few “nuts and bolts” to make it look more realistic. :)

125. Cygnus-X1 - July 24, 2014

123. TUP – July 24, 2014

The Xindi being uninteresting I can’t really defend. I found the Reptilians creepy and very effective bad guys. The other 4 species were less interesting as cultures per se. But I really enjoyed the performances by the actor who played Degra.

ENT Season 3 had a Desperate times lead to desperate measures thematic arc. The torture scene was part and parcel of that seasonal theme and Archer did it because he needed to in aid of the greater good of saving humanity. I can see maybe the thematic arc didn’t develop smoothly enough…maybe Archer was too quick to resort to such desperate measures without enough deliberation and soul searching. On DS9, this seasonal theme might have been more deliberately developed. But the seasonal theme never goes away, so I don’t know what you mean by that. It’s not as though ENT Season 3 is littered with moments where the crew just forget all about the mission they’re on, what’s at stake and how it’s all affecting them. The whole season is very dark.

ENT Season 3 did not have as many layers to it as the DS9 Dominion War. It was basically Archer & crew out in the mysterious Delphic Expanse searching for clues to track down the Xindi who are trying to destroy humanity. Archer’s objective is very straightforward—he’s a man on a mission. But, as I said, I enjoyed the mystery and exploration of the Expanse. And, while limited in scope, I also enjoyed the seasonal thematic arc. And I found it thrilling. The suspense and drama definitely worked on me.

With DS9, too often I’m just not moved enough by what’s happening, and it’s all happening so slowly and redundantly, like there’s too much dialogue being spent on inconsequential yapping—like the script needs editing. For me, it just too often lacks that extra 10% of oomph that would make it as compelling as the best of TNG. At the end of DS9 episodes I’m often left with a sort of Milquetoast feeling, like an opportunity for greatness was intentionally averted in favor of maintaining an even tone. But, taken as a whole, DS9 has a fantastic mood and feel to it, and the characters have so many dimensions to them and are very well developed.

This might all just come down to taste. I’ll have to watch ENT Season 3 again to remember what I liked and what might’ve been done better. To be continued….

126. TUP - July 25, 2014

I also think Enterprise came along at a bad time when dramas were starting to transition to a place of being more demanding as far as quality, message and performances. I recall Berman (or someone) talking about the change to episodic storytelling in Season 3 and he talked about that being the new trend in TV. Ofcourse that completely disregarded the fact DS9 did it years earlier.

Enterprise just wasnt good enough for modern audiences who demanded better storytelling and more realism.

They had a golden opportunity to connect the real world with the imagined Star Trek future and completely dropped the ball. They had flashes of potential too – I thought the uniforms were tremendous as “in-between” something from NASA and TOS. The Vulcan story had potential. The crew member who was afraid of space travel. The crew member who grew up on space freighters. It all had potential.

I know the studio was adverse to risk but it was all too safe. I would have pitched an idea that was more political/social thriller taking place in a world recovering from WWIII and the hope that came with alien contact that just happened to be set in the Trek universe.

But I digress…

127. Cygnus-X1 - July 25, 2014

126. TUP – July 25, 2014

I know the studio was adverse to risk but it was all too safe. I would have pitched an idea that was more political/social thriller taking place in a world recovering from WWIII and the hope that came with alien contact that just happened to be set in the Trek universe.

I’d be interested in your criticism as relating to specific episodes of ENT. It’s hard to know what you mean without specific examples from the show.

Your premise for a prequel series is intriguing. I’d like to see that show. But, it would be a different form of show, more akin to DS9 than ENT was trying to be. Your show removes the objective, space-exploration element that ENT had as a central thread.

This discussion has helped me a bit in terms of nailing down my issues with both DS9 and ENT, but I still find them difficult to nail down articulate. DS9 was a very mystical show. And being a fan of Ron Moore’s BSG, I suspect that the mysticism in DS9 was attributable largely to him. Again, the science is way in the background on DS9. It doesn’t really matter how the orb of time or whatver works or why such a contraption even exists; it’s just a way to get Kira into a time-travel story involving her parents and Gul Dukat in the concentration camp. I still enjoyed that episode, but there’s so much of that mysticism that it starts to bother me a bit.

The best example of it bothering me is the shameless deus ex machina of the Prophets making the Dominion fleet in the wormhole disappear in the episode where the Federation is fighting to regain control of DS9. That just took me right out of the moment. I mean, come on…if you’re going to have the gods intervene to save the good guy, at least give me more of a reason than because it’s his destiny and we want “the game” to continue. However, that aside, I love that episode.

128. dmduncan - July 25, 2014

I just strolled into and watched 20 minutes of Matador before a hint of what the show is about started to appear.

The Strain, however, is thrilling. That’s a series I would pay a subscription fee to watch.

129. TUP - July 28, 2014

Cygnus, I’d have to watch some Enterprise to get really specific and I havent for a long time. I think a lot of the acting bothered me. It wasnt up to snuff and I also attibute that to the storytelling and directing. Good directors can get a lot out of average actors.

I think Enterprise just seemed unoriginal. The most original concept told in the most uninspiring way. Like, at first they cant beam. Then they can. Then they spend an entire episode in peril because they dont have tractor beams and the vulcans that do, wont use them (if Im remembering correctly) – in that regard, THAT is interesting but it has no lasting impact.

I honestly think the one storyline I liked the most was Trip/T’pol because it actually seemed to progess and had some emotional depth. Trip was a good character played by a good actor.

But even T’pol bothered me in the sense that in canon Spock was the first Vulcan in starfleet, ok. So T’Pol is an advisor, no problem,. But then she joins the crew. Oh well. Like, you cant figure out a creative way to do what you want without violating canon? Those things drive me nuts. They NEED someone in the room who says “no, you cant do this” or “No, the character would not do that” and FORCE the writers to be creative in telling their stories and not taking the easy or cheap way out.

Enterprise just seemed so easy, safe, cheap, paint by numbers. Nothing mattered.

As for space exploration, my idea of a sociopolitical thriller would bring in exploration elements as the series progressed. In year one, where the story is the development of the ship and the political relationship between Earth and its allies, you can still do plenty of space…but as much as the show should have been about the early days of Trek, its also the early days of casual routine space exploration. So show us on the Moon. Show us on Mars. Have ship that lost contact after six months of deep space exploration and the mystery around that.

As we progress and the warp 5 ship launches, we truly slip into the unknown. Enterprise was too familar, too easy. Need to go to Quonos? We can be there in ten minutes. No no no. Terrible. In fact, off the top of my head doesnt my above scenario sound more interesting? The Columbus was fast tracked because of the Xindi, great. Well, perhaps the Enterprise gets fast tracked because the Deadelous (sp) goes missing. So the second season is the search for the lost ship and the terrors that ship encountered, the threats of space travel, the politics of dealing with Vulcan etc.

A prequel had a HUGE amount of wonderful story-telling opportunities and yet Enterprise just put out the same staff scripts week after week. It was uninspired to say the least.

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