Analysis Of Promo For ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Episode 208 – “If Memory Serves”

Thursday’s Star Trek: Discovery episode “Light and Shadows” still has fans buzzing. One of the big topics was the reveal in the last moment that the numbers Spock has been mumbling were coordinates to Talos IV, the location and focus of the first Star Trek pilot “The Cage” where he and Pike encountered the telepathic Talosians in 2254, around 3 years earlier.

The teaser trailer for next week’s episode (titled “If Memory Serves”) attached to Thursday’s episode gave us our first glimpses of Michael and Spock’s trip to Talos IV. You can watch the trailer at startrek.com. There is so much going on, we have decided to give it the full TrekMovie screencap and analysis treatment. As usual, the following contains spoilers and our analysis includes some informed speculation as well.

Spock’s warning

The trailer starts with a warning voice-over from Spock. He says:

Spock (voice-over): I have seen a possible future. One that can be determined by our actions.

This is over the following segments:

Shuttle lands on Talos IV

Michael looks out on Talos IV

USS Discovery at warp with Section 31 ship trailing

Captain Pike on the bridge of Discovery

Dr. Culber attacks Tyler

Culber pushes Tyler over a table in mess hall

The crew watch the fight

Spock’s voice-over continues with his warning, saying:

Spock (voice-over): This can be the defining moment for multiple civilizations…millions of lives.

Spock in a cell, likely flashback to when he was in Starfleet psychiatric facility

Shuttle approaches a planet or some kind of space phenomenon

Red Angel

Pike looks pensive

Talosians on the surface of Talos IV

SIDEBAR: OMG New Talosians!

Ever since the Discovery panel at New York Comic Con in October 2018 we have known that season two would include a visit to Talos IV. But this trailer gives us our first glimpse of Discovery’s design for Star Trek’s first aliens. As the show has done for Andorians and Tellarites, the update looks pretty faithful, although the heads seem a bit smaller. But the veins are throbbing! We don’t get a look at the back of their heads to know if they still have that famed crack.

Talosians from TOS “The Cage”

Jeffrey Hunter as Captain Pike with Talosians

Jeffrey Hunter as Captain Pike, captured by the Talosians in “The Cage”

Michael asks for help from the Talosians

Back to the trailer, the rest of the promo is mostly focused on a scene which appears to show Michael Burnham seeking help for her brother from the Talosians.

Michael: Show me my brother’s mind.

Michael asks Talosians for help

Talosians concentrate

Michael enters a vision

Michael enters Spock’s mind

The promo then seems to show glimpses of a vision from Spock’s mind as seen by Michael Burnham. These images appear to be a mix of flashbacks and the possible future Spock warned about earlier in the trailer. They are presented below in the order seen in the trailer.

Young Spock bathed in red, possibly his first vision of the Red Angel

Adult Spock

Adult Spock wearing a mask in cold weather jacket

Red Angel

Young Michael running in a forest, likely when she ran away from home on Vulcan and the same night as Spock’s first vision of the Red Angel

Fleet of squid-like ships (likely related to the modified probe from the future that attacked Pike’s shuttle in “Light and Shadows”) firing torpedoes

Earth under attack, apparently from the fleet of squid ships

A burst of red energy

Something bursts out of the ground behind young Michael

The Earth is destroyed

Adult Spock cries

Young Michael pinned down

Spock’s back

The trailer ends with Michael coming out of her vision, apparently finding Spock now revived.

Michael awakes from her vision

Spock speaks to Michael about what she has seen from his mind:

Spock: Now you see

Spock talks to Michael on Talos IV


Star Trek: Discovery is available exclusively in the USA on CBS All Access. It airs in Canada on Space and streams on CraveTV. It is available on Netflix everywhere else. The second season debuted on All Access and Space on Thursday, January 17th, 2019, and on Netflix January 18, 2019.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Discovery news at TrekMovie.

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Bryan

To me, the new Talosians is a great example of how you do a reimagining. They’re perfect. Even the amulet is the same but modern looking.

Vulcan Soul

Agreed! They are like high-definition versions of the old ones. Squint and they would look the same.

kmart

Not seeing the similarity at all, given the frame grabs above, more like PROMETHEUS alien with an Andrew Stevens THE FURY vein. Do they look better in motion clips? Half of these frames, everything looks so damn BLUE (again.)

Tiger2

Do you at least like them though? I think they look great.

Vulcan Soul

“Half of these frames, everything looks so damn BLUE (again.)”

And the other half looks red/orange. I think they really don’t like GREEN :D

kmart

I’m color-blind, so I barely see green, but when I do, I don’t like it much. I like WILD WILD WEST level blue, supersaturated in a very contrasty way, not this kind of blue.

And I don’t like this version of them at all, probably because the original design still works for me. It’s not like a Tellarite whose nostril holes don’t even line up or some other gross fail from TOS, the CAGE Talosians simply looked good to me.

On a trek level, I don’t understand why they have such a PROMETHEUS strong look. This planet is .9 grav of Earth, which was reflected in what seemed to be their less substantial physical structure.

Sorry, don’t mean to go all trekkie on you, but if you can’t do it here, then where?

I am going to have a tough time not bringing this up to my wife, because she is staying info free till whatever time it is that we can watch season 2 (our TV is not compatible with any domestic presentation of the series, and the only way I’m going to watch an SF show on my little 26″ or 27″ computer monitor is if I’m getting it for free, so am guessing it will be May by the time we watch any of this.)

JAGT

The makeup design is fine, but they had a point in casting rather petite women as Talosians in “The Cage” – they were meant to look frail, atrophied, due to their life as (quite literally) “cerebral” beings. That lack of ambition paired with the voyeuristic nature of their undertaking was what originally disgusted Pike so much about them. I don’t mind the casting of a male performer, but he doesn’t really look physically weak.

The River Temarc

I don’t think they were all women?

All of the main Talosians were played by women in The Cage. Only one background Talosian was played by a man, Felix Silla (best known as Cousin Itt from Adams Family and Twiki from Buck Rogers)

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Unnamed_Talosians

I don’t mind the casting of a male performer, but he doesn’t really look physically weak.

Yep that’s the one thing that bothers me, they all should look a bit frail.

Let’s hope they did that through clever shooting angles, as for the Hobbits in Lord of the Rings…

The River Temarc

Not so much frail as a bit androgynous.

Marja

Not even that, so much. There’s a distinct “male” and “female” facial structure. Even their clothes are different. For a race that relies on their minds alone, it seems physical details such as this would be unimportant. [Really pickin’ nits here though.]

khambattafan

Bingo.

Marja

Agreed. That guy is Way too big. A “miss” on the part of the casting people.

Vulcan Soul

Can’t believe now I am the one to argue for the Discovery people (it goes to show we all place different enphasises in what’s important! ) but as someone below pointed out, the appearance of the Talosians is an illusion anyway and they had the chance to refine their looks to offworlders after the encounter with Pikes Enterprise four years earlier. Of course you could ask why would they, otoh they also created Vina’s illusion as a striking young woman which they didn’t have to if they thought looks are not important. They are not important to them but they clearly know they are important to humans so giving themselves a more sophisticated and imposing figure with offworlders (less frail – that surprise element of underestimation is lost now anyway after the Talos incident) gives them a psychological edge.

TG47

I’m really struggling with why anyone would be nitpicking the makeup and costumes for the Talosians.

They’ve managed to update them to high definition theatrical film standards, eliminate the cheesiness, and stay incredibly true to the original concept as possible. We’ll need to see the acting more fully to know if the Talosians have the same vibe.

Going back to the quarry on location seems inspired also.

Tamara Deverell said that doing the sets and design for the Talos of her childhood nightmares would be a ‘I have to do that’ moment. I’m looking forward to seeing the internal sets on Talos. (And hoping we get to see inside.). The Toronto crew have done well with giving us caves and crypts that don’t look like foam rocks with spray-paint.

Me to this is really obnoxious fanboy stuff. Any other franchise can re image there product and get a pass but Star Trek can’t. This is all B.S. I wish they would just go away or better yet stop watching disco.

A34

I feel the same way. I love Trek but you couldn’t pay me to be in the same room with most Trek fans.

PEB

That comment alone has been my reasoning for not having gone to the Las Vegas Con. I’m way too nervous to find out if it’s filled with one type of Trek fan or if it would truly feel like the Trek Mecca I dream of.

STLV is not like the Internet thankfully. I’ve found it to be a good vibe. I’ve gone the last couple of years and every time I get to the Rio and see the Trek decorations setup, I’ve felt like I’m among my people. There’s a Trekkie electricity to the air during that weekend. Remember STLV requires people to travel, and pay for a room, and pay for a ticket to the event, so it requires a certain amount of dedication. I’d say most of the people are there to socialize with each other (many people go there to see friends they first met online and/or only meet up with once a year at the convention) and see the Trek celebs, and check out the merch room, etc. People are generally friendly and inclusive. There’s folks from all generations of fandom typically represented there as well.

Sam

ST could reimagine itself as well, it’s just for a whole generation it elected not to. Which created false assumptions among 2nd generation fans about the franchise as a whole.

I wish in retrospect they could have gotten smaller or more frail-looking actors to play the Talosians. I’m also not particularly fond of the forehead ridge because we’ve just seen that kind of make-up too often on ST. But it’s done.

Tiger2

LOL, I think its the opposite. It was the original 1st generation TOS fans who didn’t think there could even BE a Star Trek without Kirk and Spock, much less a redesign of the whole thing. And even then I don’t think they were the majority or anything. I am also an original TOS fan had no problems with it at the time and still don’t.

But we have to stop putting people in boxes. Truth is after reading these boards for several years now, people’s tastes and attitudes doesn’t seem to align with any one generation or when they started watching the shows.

But to stay on topic I agree it probably would’ve been cool to have women stay in the roles but not a big deal. Most casual fans won’t care or notice.

Sam

It may have been a poor choice of words. I actually think a majority of TOS fans did reject TNG at first, or at least most casual ST watchers I new. However I wasn’t thinking about them. I believe the TOS films (along with early-to mid TNG) illustrated to audiences that ST was about change. But then having an extended period in which things did not change I think was a huge disservice.

I prefer to see things reimagined regularly, which I liken to keeping on top of your oil change. But it also means one doesn’t get to choose how they’ll reimagine it.

Tiger2

OK I understand better now. And it goes back to our other conversation on another page. Yes I would like to see a hard reboot in general but I guess the fear is most Trek fans will reject it since they consider the prime timeline definitive Trek and don’t want the 700+ hours of episodes and 10+ movies to be deemed moot.

Discovery did feel pretty different in first season but second season they are trying to make it feel much closer to the others now although it is a much better season as well IMO.

Sam

I think it’s also about timing. Ten years ago, a full TOS reboot on TV would be easier to imagine if Paramount and JJ Abrams hadn’t just (partially) done that in theaters. Today it would be easier to imagine in CBS was not already knee-deep in several re-imagined ST spinoff concepts that still conceptually fall within established continuity. However it’s also true that just about anything would encounter some fan resistance regardless.

I’m also mostly fine with what STD has done this year. I would personally prefer less hand-waving within the episodes themselves to highlight concessions that the producers already talked with us about in interviews (“Hey, I heard the Klingons are growing their hair back, is it true?”). However they’ve made their realignment towards more traditional Trek while still keeping it consistent with the foundation elements of S1, which I approve. Klingons still have their four nostrils.

Some of S1 though will always feel simply wrong. And that goes back to where I just put on a different pair of glasses for every version of Trek. What Sarek and SF were prepared to sacrifice to end the war will always be VERY far off in my head (as in practically nonexistent) during the 51 minutes that I’m watching “Journey to Babel”.

Marja

I watched TNG with great love from seasons 3 – 7. Seasons 1 & 2 had some really good eps, but I winced every time I saw an updated rehash of a crap plot from TOS.

Captain Creed

The original series does not hold up anymore. It you look at it through the cultural lens of the 60s it was made as a reflection of the time they were in. No way they would get away with a lot of stuff in this day and age. I argue that Discovery is basically a soft reboot and an obvious Retcon of TOS. I honestly think its time to reconsider a soft reboot of the original series. Keep the stories in continuity but build other modernized stories around them. Discover is a retcon and has re written a lot of canon or perceived canon. If the Kelvin Universe is not coming back, they should consider a new original series show.

Marja

I think they may do a reboot of TOS. I think it’s shaping up, with Pike and Spock and Number One. I’ll wait and see, but based on Pike’s popularity on DSC, it may materialize.

DPrescott

This is the thing, why are we even grubbing around in established continuity in the TOS period? Couldn’t Secret Hideout simply have negotiated to set a new show post TNG?

Ad Astra Per Aspera

I don’t think it’s the majority of Trek fans, it’s just a vocal few who are VERY loud and repeat the same arguments over and over and over again.

kmart

We haven’t seen them redo and ruin Talosians before, so this is something relatively new.

ML31

Thomas, any other franchise that re-imagines their product is doing a reboot. STD has gone out of their way to say this was not a reboot although everything we have seen on screen strongly suggests otherwise.

DPrescott

True, and if it didn’t have Trek in the title, it’s not a show i would be watching.

Marja

Hey! Those foam rocks were a critical part of my youth! ;^)

ML31

They are getting better but pretty much all Trek sets in caves, including this one, look like painted foam. There is a reason they use caves a lot. I recall Frakes saying something once that if it wasn’t for caves they would never leave the ship!

DPrescott

Imho the producers have modified the Talosian appearance more than updated.

German Trekkie

I also think the Saurians, Andorians and Tellarites are very good.

Marja

I love Linus! I wish they’d trim the Andorian’s cheek blades, but … [sigh] I’m not gonna nitpick bc I like the new more alien Klingons.

The River Temarc

I agree with this, but I don’t like the new ridge extending from the nose to the forehead. But that’s a quibble.

khambattafan

The forehead ridge seems like change for change’s sake. They probably thought the big heads by themselves were cheesy, but adding the forehead ridge makes them look too much like Voyager guest aliens of the week- generic.

Alex

Talosians look awesome. Also, I think we’re going to leave behind the episodic format and return to a more serialized format for the rest of the show – which, in this case, is good news, as the search for Spock was dragged out for too long.

Professor Spock

Michael Burnham sees a very dark future in Spock’s mind. Whoever the Red Angel can be has dark plans for Earth.

TG47

Professor Spock, It’s assuming a lot to say that the Red Angel has dark plans for Earth.

It could as easily be that the Red Angel has reached out to provide a detailed warning of what might be.

Marja

Yes, I agree; the Red Angel may be pointing out another “trouble spot” that will help them prevent whatever’s going to happen to Earth.

DPrescott

Is it just me or does the red Angel look a bit like Tilly?

Vulcan Soul

“There is so much going on, we have decided to give it the full TrekMovie screencap and analysis treatment.”

Thanks for the analysis, I was thinking the same! I actually watched it on YouTube in slow motion before to get a glimpse of that nasty mothership of NastyProbe! The stakes seem to be considerably upped in the next episode, either by revealing the true nature of the Red Angel or introducing another faction (the squids). Or both – maybe the Red Angel is protecting the Federation FROM the squid invasion? In any case, I’m not so hot on Earth being the target for annihilation AGAIN. Have Star Trek creators heard about the little theory that the universe does not revolve around the Earth? ;)

Nebula1701

Its the heart of the Federation though. Without it, there is no Federation. Also it’s the most relatable to the audience.

German Trekkie

Isn’t there a line of dialog that multiple civilisations are at stake? Maybe this mecha-squid-attack is going to hit multiple planets, but because it is Michael who conceives the visions she is most shocked about earth…

Professor Spock

Vulcan Soul Earth is the capital planet of the Federation so the perfect target.

Vulcan Soul

Which of course is part of the problem. Everything is anthropocentric on Trek no matter what they say, Earth’s outsized role which makes even less sense after Enterprise (Human backwardness compared to the Vulcans), English as “Federation Standard” etc. Of course we know the behind the scenes reasons and it helps relatability (as well as self-worth for some viewers, maybe ;-), but we shouldn’t use this built-in contradiction as justification why the madmen of this Galaxy always go after Earth (I guess in light of this we should “thank” JJ for blowing up Vulcan first in Trek09, although I’d have much preferred they dont blow up any planets!)

Tiger2

I hear what you’re saying VS, but I can understand why Earth is so important in Star Trek. For one thing we know Roddenberry basically used America itself as the basis of Starfleet and many believe the Federation itself. Now if you do believe that, look how powerful America had become in such a short time and its really one of the youngest countries on the planet and yet its the only real super power today although many argue E.U. as a whole is the other.

Anyway taking that in mind, America has created huge influence everywhere although its population is only 5% of Earths. But yet it touches so much from military through entertainment with shows like Star Trek itself. Most global policy only moves when America is involved. And yes because of its power and influence it has caused both envy and hate around the world and both valid depending on the issue. I use to teach English abroad and 80% of my students were learning it because they wanted to either go to America or be involved with it on a professional or cultural level because they saw its importance to the world stage and they were from countries literally thousands of years older.

That’s sort of what Earth has become in Star Trek. It has risen from this tiny planet with a young space force to become a huge player in a very short time just like America’s influence today. There is probably no Federation without it as we know it was the beginning of Archer’s idea starting with the Coalition of Planets. So its not that backwards even in the 22nd century. While it probably wasn’t on purpose I can see how Earth shifted itself into a global player by the 23rd century becoming a dominant force within the Federation.

Elrond

Well said, Tiger.

Sam

But at the same time, you would agree ST has probably had too many “Person/group X wants to destroy Earth because they hate the crew of the Enterprise” stories (particularly movies).

Is ST too American? Is that why the movies struggle to pick up an international audience?

Tiger2

Yes of course and again that’s what bothered me about so many of the films in fact, that so many revolved around trying to destroy Earth. The Kelvin movies the first two films ended at not just trying to destroy Earth but San Francisco…two freakin films in a row. But all three movie series are guilty of this. Two for TOS (TMP and TVH), one for TNG (FC) and two for KU (09 and STID).

But they seem to think thats what gets people to watch. And if ST is too American or not, maybe. ST in general encompasses very diverse characters and stories but the show is still told from a mostly American POV. But so are Transformer movies lol, so you got me.

Tiger2

I guess to be fair to the TOS films, neither machine wanted to destroy Earch so much as their immense power could destroy it unknowingly. Probably still a bit too Earth focused though.

ML31

V’ger was a child and in it’s immature rage was about to destroy all the ‘carbon units’ only because it thought they interfered with the creator. It didn’t see them as ‘true’ life forms anyway. The whale log did seem to be particularly malevolent for some weird reason. It was going to destroy everything on the surface just because it stopped hearing something that was impossible for them to hear in the first place. (eyeroll)

Sam

And actually the only films on that list I have trouble forgiving are Into Darkness and Nemesis. The (1st generation) TOS films I’m perfectly fine with because both of them are Trek movies the likes of which Hollywood will never make again.

Marja

I agree. There is far too much emphasis on Earth. Maybe the producers didn’t want to threaten Vulcan. But why not Andor or Tellar? But Earth brings a visceral response from us.

Vulcan Soul

Of course it creates a visceral response but you get kind of blunted after going to that well one time too often in recent years (kind of what happened with the Borg in Voyager!) Of course one could argue after last year’s inane threat of “destruction of ALL universes” in the mirror arc, destroying ONLY Earth is almost anticlimactic ;)

Tiger2

Actually your post just reminded, this isn’t about just Earth, but ALL life in the galaxy. Remember what Spock said in the last trailer before the season started that the Red Angel showed him ALL sentient life will be destroyed. We see Earth in the preview attacked but it is bigger than Earth in reality. No its not all universes like last season and just the galaxy, but since we are some of the idiots who lives in it, it still matters.

Vulcan Soul

“Actually your post just reminded, this isn’t about just Earth, but ALL life in the galaxy”

Fine, so much for anticlimactic ;)

But why does Spock say in above preview:
This can be the defining moment for multiple civilizations…millions of lives.

Shouldn’t that be Billions then?

Tiger2

That’s a good question since he actually says both in the trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o8kFyeOdfY

He says the line you quoted first at :06.
But then he says ALL sentient life in the galaxy will end at :36. So make up your mind Spock, is it just a few civilizations or is it EVERYBODY??? That’s quite a big difference there. ;)

Legate Damar

I was so distracted by the Talosians, I didn’t notice any of this other sfuff. Thursday’s episode should be awesome.

German Trekkie

I fear the hype! I am a huge fan of “The Cage” – but right now I admit to be pumped XD

Holden

I’ve been almost as excited about them since the first couple of episodes in S2 as about Spock’s return. It’s such a rich narrative space to finally return to.

Tiger2

I was one of the people who rolled my eyes when I heard they were coming back. But not because of them per se, just the constant need of nostalgia I felt they were going to do this season. Now I couldn’t be more excited to see them lol. They did such a great job setting them up.

Holden

For me, I think it’s a combination of them being such an iconic part of Trek that’s never been fully explored beyond the rejected pilot with the fact that the Cage/Menagerie storyline has so much room to explore, for Pike, Spock, Number One, and others.

For being Trek’s core foundational myth, it’s all such a, wait for it, “undiscovered country.”

Thank you. Be sure to tip your waiters.

Tiger2

Yeah I will admit this was pretty clever and to explore the first alien species of Star Trek that has been completely ignored since their introduction. In fact I don’t know why no one has ever considered visiting them again on the other shows or maybe they have but rejected the idea.

So its smart and it makes the prequel thing less annoying for me since they are genuinely exploring an area of TOS that fans are curious in seeing again. And it doesn’t feel like they are just adding more geeky minutiae to past Trek canon like how Klingos got warp power or something. This is really one of the true benefits of doing a prequel story.

Tiger2

I meant to say cloaking power and not warp power but you get my point. ;)

Holden

Of course.;)

Marja

Probably didn’t visit again bc of General Order 7 …?

Tiger2

It doesn’t mean they can’t revisit the story line. It’s Star Trek, they meet a group of them out in space or Q snaps his fingers and the crew of Voyager is zapped to the planet. Or they need they need the Federation help for a change and manipulate them to unknowingly bring them there. If they wanted to revisit them, its not hard.

Capt Steve

If Michael Burnham is the Red Angel, I’m going to roll my eyes so hard that I have an aneurysm.

Thorny

I’m still betting on Airiam. The squids try to use her against the Federation, but Pike & Co. turn her around and use her against the squids. This might be dangerously close to Best of Both Worlds territory, though.

Holden

I still think Airam is a vessel for someone else.

Tiger2

Apparently its someone from 500 years into the future, so I can’t see how that is Burnham unless she time traveled there or was put in some kind of stasis chamber ala Khan.

I’m still holding out its something completely new but if it is someone from the crew then my money is on Ariam since we don’t know much about her or how long she can live.

Holden

I don’t think it’ll be anybody completely new because that would deaden the emotional impact of the reveal.

Tiger2

I mean it could be from a species we know at least as others were thinking the Iconians previously. That theory now seems dead in the water but I don’t think whoever is in the suit itself has to be someone we literally know. But yes, I guess now that we know its a time traveler it would suggest it is someone we do know. I just really don’t want it to be someone like Spock or Burnham, that would feel ridiculous and convoluted to me coming from 500 years in the future (well I guess it can’t be Spock then lol).

But I can buy the A.I. theory it could be someone like Zora who has created a body for herself. Now that would be cool!

Holden

I don’t think there necessarily has to be anyone in the suit either. For now, I’m holding on to my mass hallucination theory (which is why I’ve been so invested in the Talosian angle for awhile).

I think the Zora argument has traction, if we believe the idea that every Short Trek has to connect back to DISCO.

Tiger2

They did say the Short Trek stories would be relevant to this season as we obviously saw Saru’s story. Calypso and Mudd’s story felt more like isolated outliers but it doesn’t mean they won’t have any influence on the season. It would be crazy if the Calypso story was actually the entire basis for the season and Zora is the one showing up. My mind would certainly be blown lol.

But the Talosians doing it as a mass hallucination would also be crazy but I don’t know how the time travel angle would fit in though. Why would they hint to it being from the future?

A34

People keep talking about a post Nemesis show, but I think a lot of people would love to see a post Calypso show.

Tiger2

Actually I would LOVE that idea too. Seeing what the Federation would be like a 1,000 years from now would be nuts.

A34

@Tiger2 From the hints in Calypso, I don’t think the Federation are the good guys.

Tiger2

Maybe, but it was so vague it really could go either way. And I would still like to see it even if they were. It could be a fight to take it back.

A34

@Tiger2 1000 years is such a long time. The Federation must be a distant memory. At least we know that the V’Draysh likes Betty Boop. They can’t be all that bad.

Marja

That’s been my theory for a while, that it’s Future Michael, but since last week when Ariam received all The Information and her eyes went red, I’m giving more credence to her as the RA.

Tiger2

OK help me help out here because so many seem to think its Michael, what ideas do you or others have how she happens to be 500 years in the future and then come back pulling off all these crazy acts without just telling them why she’s doing it? I’m not saying its wrong, on this show you can do literally anything if you are creative enough, but why or how would she be so far in the future? I just don’t see how its plausible. We have seen some people pulled into the future like Archer by Daniels but they never stayed.

Matthew Boesch

I’m hoping we get to see flashbacks of a re-imagined “Cage” episode.

Vulcan Soul

At the very least, I want to see Pike reminisce about his experience on Talos!

German Trekkie

I am expecting tons of references … maybe even too much. I mean, this is practically the direct continuation of “The Cage” since it’s before “The Menagerie” in the timeline. Will we see some of the alien cages? Will we see the nice singing blue plant? What about Vina? Will Pike share some thoughts on the mission? (i do not expect him to meet her or the talosians – I would absoulutely geek out over such a direct reference/continuation)!

Michael Hall

Yes, now that you mention it. What about Vina? I’m guessing she’s dead, but thay’ll definitely have to deal with her, one way or the other.

Thorny

Not sure why Vina would be dead, it is only three years later. She was in good health, just badly disfigured.

She looks alive in The Menagerie. Could be an illusion though.

Holden

Honestly, last night I briefly thought that maybe Vina was the RA. But I couldn’t put the other pieces together.

FloWo1701

Me too!

slvrpltd

these ships remind me of v‘ger.

Legate Damar

I wonder if Vina will be in the new episode. She should still be on Talos hanging out with an imaginary Pike at this point. It would be cool to see her again.

Honestly, I never understood why she stayed on Talos. Sure, she was ugly, but unlike Pike she was fully capable of living a full life without the Talosians help.

Michael Hall

Ugly, crippled, and addicted to illusion after eighteen years of captivity. Not much of a life to go back to.

FLB

Because the Talosians allowed her to keep the illusion of her beauty. She’d rather have that than face the truth and/or be free. She was willing to give up her freedom for comfort.

It’s this sort of character complexity that made TOS so different from other science fiction shows from that era.

Legate Damar

Maybe. I just wish that there had been some discussion of her returning, instead of Pike immediately accecpting it after he saw what she looked like.

Marja

Yes, Damar, one would think they could correct all of Vina’s structural problems with plastic surgery and other therapies available ….

That would blow Roddenberry’s idea, re-stated by FLB, that she preferred comfort over reality though.

TG47

I’m not sure that I can agree that The Cage is TOS, given how much Roddenberry had to give up in the second pilot to green-light the series.

But that’s one of things that makes this so fascinating. TNG was Roddenberry’s own reboot of his original concept, while DSC is quite deftly indulging our 55 years of ‘what might have beens’.

Mark Z

Is all of the Cage considered canon? Seems that the Menagerie changed things so that there’s no imaginary Pike on Talos IV.

TG47

Generally, the Cage has been considered canon since Roddenberry chose to release it early in TNG’s run (in a mix of colour scenes from the TOS episodes and B&W for the omitted ones).

It’s release seemed to be a definite decision by Roddenberry to demonstrate that (1) TNG was Trek as he envisioned it; and that (2) the TOS characters did not define what Trek is or is not.

The events of The Menagerie don’t really counteract anything from The Cage. It seems fairly simple: In 2254 Vina was given a fake Pike. Years later in 2267, the real Pike returns to Talos and is given an illusionary body to appear as he was in 2254 to join Vina.
It’s pretty easy to infer that the Talosians discontinued the fake Pike when the real one joins Vina in 2267.

Marja

No, Vina’s imaginary Pike only comes along after the events of “Menagerie,” which was a re-set of “The Cage.”

Unless the Talosians gave her an Imaginary Friend until real Pike gets injured ….

Actually, in “The Cage” the Talsoians do indeed give Vina an illusionary Pike to go off and frolic with.

They then re-purpose that footage in “The Menagerie” to show that the real (now crippled) Pike has beamed down successfully, and he has been given the illusion of a healthy body as he joins the waiting Vina.

Tiger2

I guess the question is does it count in canon from The Cage? Does Vina have an imaginary Pike now or do you think they will just avoid that and keep to what happened in the Menagerie?

Elrond

Thanks very much for this analysis! It certainly whets the appetite!

alphantrion

See I have no problems with the visual upgrades of the Talosians because this upgrade makes absolute sense and doesn’t take away the fact that they are Talosians, unlike the Klingon upgrade which went the wholly different route and only this season is trying to backtrack on that. If they had done something similar with the klingons in the first year I am sure there wouldn’t have been as much opposition. They could have done something totally different with the Talosians as well, but they kept the core of the designs intact. I think this is all many fans want, just to keep at least the core of the designs intact.

Denny C

Truth be told, we really have no idea what the Talosians actually look like. What we see is how they want us to perceive them. That said, my only quibble is that they should appear far smaller in stature.

PaulB

But…well…um–yeah, good point! Talosians can be retconned with impunity thanks to that. I agree about the smaller stature, though. It was part of the concept of their species, so losing that is slightly bothersome.

Tiger2

Wow great point. Never thought of that until now.

Vulcan Soul

I’m glad that NuTalosians show a better fashion taste as well in their illusions :D

swgs

Talosians = Butt Heads

PaulB

Then who are the Beavises?

Sorry. I’ll leave now.

Mark Z

Very original.

Spock Jenkins

CULBER fighting TYLER is intriguing beyond the obvious reason* – both Culber and Tyler are biological “simulacra”:

In Culber’s case, he is the REAL Dr. Culber, but with a recreated physical body.

Whereas Tyler is in all reality, a surgically-altered Voq, who thinks/acts – and for all intents and purposes – is TREATED as if he’s the real Tyler by everyone ( even though he absolutely ISN’T ).

I could see why these two would come into conflict.

*Voq-Tyler murdered Dr Culber.

Denny C

For all intents and purposes, The Dr. Culber we met in season 1 is gone. He was basically willed back into existence by Stamets and Culber may come to resent Stamets for bringing him back.

ML31

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever season 2 Culber is the “real” Culber.

c d

They look more like the aliens on the TV version of Alien Nation than Talosians but their veins are throbbing! That’s all that matters.

Douglass Abramson

The one in the foreground definitely does, which makes me wonder if Eric Pierpoint is making a return to Star Trek.

c d

So is Michael Burnham the Red Angel?

Jeffrey S. Nelson

I think the Red Angel is Gorgon’s good brother…

PaulB

LOL! Good call! That would be both hilarious and horrific!

Daniel Broadway

The shuttle isn’t approaching a planet, it’s a black hole. It looks exactly like the one from Interstellar.

Fred Javelina

That would be an interesting angle, do they need the black hole’s gravity well for some sort of slingshot maneuver? Or do they do something more exotic with it, like try to recover information from the other side of the event horizon?

John Barsh

It looks like the shuttle is approaching a black hole, not a planet in that scene. It looks like how the black hole looks in Interstellar.

Pikomen

Here’s a thought; Could the squid ships be from the (future) machine world in ST:TMP and the Red Angel be the Commander Decker/Ilia probe hybrid. The squid ships look vaguely V’Geresque. The machine world does have a track record of upgrading foreign probes and returning them to sender and Spocks mind meld with V’Ger did (will) short circuit his brain, albeit temporarily. Too much of a stretch?

Joe

Yeah, I also thought of the Voyager probe from TMP when this Disc probe came back upgraded but I didn’t think about Red Angel being Decker/Ilia.

Tiger2

What if…and I’m just going to say it, the probe that was sent back to attack Pike’s shuttle came from the Borg in the 28th century? I’m JUST saying! The Borg already assimilates biological species, but if they have become so advanced in the future maybe they are now able to assimilate actual machines and give them intelligence as well? I don’t think it is but wouldn’t exactly be a stretch. And I would love to know what the 28th century Borg is like!

And of course we know Roddenberry had toyed with the idea that V’ger was assimilated by the Borg in the first place. It’s never been canon but it doesn’t stop anyone from making it canon if they wanted to.

TG47

I suspect the Borg are done Tiger2.

While books aren’t canon, I don’t think CBS would have registered Star Trek: Destiny as a TV series title if they weren’t at least seriously considering that the IP in David Mack’s Destiny book trilogy needed protecting.

They are awesome, the last word on the Borg past, present and future and should be their own miniseries.

Tiger2

I suspect they have big plans in the future coming for them. I never read that novel but I know its a huge fan favorite.

The people making Discovery has said they would like to do the Borg, but the timeline makes it difficult. They may be thinking of something just for them but if the first season of the Picard show doesn’t hit it out of the park as much as CBS hopes I can see them being a big foe in its second season.

Honestly though if Paramount ever got it together and got another Kelvin film going, ditch Kirk’s dad (I guess they don’t have a choice now lol) and bring in the Borg for the next movie. They are in the Kelvin universe so they don’t have issue like Discovery does. They want butts in the seats and some big hype for those movies again that Beyond really failed to do, Kirk fighting the Borg would have people ecstatic. I think people would love to see how they handle them. And certainly more exciting than Klingons or another round with Khan.

Vulcan Soul

“if the first season of the Picard show doesn’t hit it out of the park as much as CBS hopes I can see them being a big foe in its second season.”

The Borg settling their score with Picard 25 years after First Contact? Count me in!

But if they ever revisit the Borg, they need to soft reboot them. By that I don’t mean the looks at all but they need to be an indestructable relentless menace again like in Q Who (ditch the Queen!) At the end of Voyager the Borg had become a joke with one tiny science ship destroying multiple cubes with Future Tech.

Fortunately nothing is easier to reconcile with canon than to reboot the Borg because they got the reboot built-in: just let them have assimilated powerful species (such as Species 8472) during their 20 year absence after Voyager and then return more terrifying than ever. That does preclude using them anywhere else but in Picard, unless they come from the future of course like the 28th century as you suggested.

Sam

I would rather be done with the Borg personally. Let them remain just a Berman Trek thing, same as Q. I don’t see any new territory to be explored in bringing them back.

We’ve also already had our one feature film devoted to them (and it’s still the best point of entry for new fans into the 2nd Generation, 1987-2005, era of Star Trek; the Star Trek 101 for that period of the franchise). The Borg are to TNG what Khan was to TOS, and the risk of over-saturation is comparable.

I’ve also never been fond of integrating TMP’s story with the Borg. Like establishing Khan’s supermen as the reason Klingons had flat forheards, it’s just another crossbreeding of elements I’d prefer to not see TPTB commit to.

Pikomen

@Tiger2 Yep. The squids as future borg are probably a more safe bet than a TMP connection unfortunately (Didn’t the borg assimilating the EMHs future-tech holoemitter spawn some squidlike in-vitro machinery in VOY? Can’t remember. ) Everybody loves the borg. I for one would love to see something more creative than yet another Borg time traveling storyline (not to take away from the perfection that is Star Trek First Contact).

Tiger2

I want to make this clear I don’t REALLY thinks its the Borg, but yes its plausible it could be them. Very least they should be on the list. And yes the episode you are thinking about from Voyager is Drone that produced a Borg that used squid tentacles to assimilate the holoemitter. So yes we have seen something like that before from the Borg. Great episode and loved the actor who played him.

But I actually agree with you, it would be better if we did see something new and a different villain entirely. While it doesn’t mean whoever sent the probe back are machines themselves it would be cool to have an actual all machine species on Star Trek. For some reason we have never seen that given all the aliens they have come across in the past. Maybe they think thats BSG territory only lol.

And one of my biggest complaints about Discovery first season is that they presented nothing new. It was in a new package but every story line and group were stuff we seen from other shows. Another reason why I’m loving season 2 more because its presenting a lot more unique and interesting ideas like the aliens living in the Mycelial network, the Ba’ul and of course the Red Angel story line. So something A.I. based would be another different direction.

But I wouldn’t complain if it was 28th century Borg either. ;)

Vulcan Soul

“it would be cool to have an actual all machine species on Star Trek.”

So Discovery should copy the Kaylon from The Orville? At least that would be a more worthy target of appropriation than the sophomore Orvillian jokes earlier this season ;-)

Tiger2

LOL, no. But I would like to see a machine based species. And it doesn’t have to follow the same evil A.I. trope that they want to exterminate humanity or anything.

Jai

“What if…and I’m just going to say it, the probe that was sent back to attack Pike’s shuttle came from the Borg in the 28th century?”

Tiger2, this could be taken even further:

The probe obviously infected Airiam. What if…the result is that Airiam actually ends up being the first Borg? Patient Zero? She then begins assimilating others in the galaxy, the process spreads…and 500 years later, 28th century Borg return an assimilated probe to the past, which infects Airiam…and the cycle continues.

More: The Red Angel turns out to be Airiam from the far future. The “mother of all Borg”, in more ways than one.

How’s that for a causality loop? ;)

PaulB

DSC’s Talosians look more like Klingons than the DSC Klingons do!

Jason C

They look nothing like Klingons.

PaulB

Even if I agreed with you, my statement would remain valid.

Professor Spock

Not Klingons

PaulB

Brilliant addition to the conversation, Professor. Read my reply to Jason C.

Ad Astra Per Aspera

This is- along with along your unessesarily responses- trolling.

PaulB

I made a comment that hurt nobody and attacked no one. You sniped at me personally in reply. It’s clear which of us is the troll. Bye now!

Mark Z

A troll is someone who participates in a discussion with the sole purpose of stirring up trouble and/or upsetting people. It has nothing to do with making personal remarks.

Marja

I think ad hominem attacks are over the line.

Ad Astra Per Aspera

There is a big difference between calling out somebody trolling and sniping. You knew exactly what you were doing when you made your original comment and you reinforced it with your rude remarks. You are trolling. And I am calling you out. Again.

Feel free to reply if you must but this will be the last time I bother to give you any attention unless you can add something productive to the discussions on this thread and not resort to making inflammatory comments and rudeness.

Bye.

PaulB

“And I’m calling you out. Again” HAhaHAhaHA! Get over yourself, pipsqueak. Your commenting history here isn’t exactly brilliant or polite, so get off your high horse.

I made a comment. I stand by it. but YOU have proceeded to attack me, insult me, and add NOTHING to the conversation–all because I made a joke that had nothing to do with you or anyone else here.

But yeah, *I* am the problem here. Sure, whatever strokes your fragile ego, AAPA.

My comment didn’t target or hurt anyone. It wasn’t a reply to anyone. It was inoffensive except to the chronically butt-hurt such as you.

There was nothing inflammatory or rude about my comment, but your replies are nothing but inflammatory and rude. Your hypocritical projection onto me is laughable.

Take your fight-picking to someone who cares. This isn’t the place for it.

Whatever is going on here, it’s now devolved into name calling. Time to move on folks.

Cervantes

Although I much prefer to look on the DISCOVERY show and it’s characters as being set in a kind of ‘re-imagined’, wholly separate, ‘alternate/parallel universe’ to the one featured in the original TOS show to begin with, rather than a direct prequel….I’m certainly interested to see what it’s particular ‘Spock’ and ‘Talosians’ will bring in the next episode!

While I remain dissatisfied with various aspects of DISCOVERY’s first and second seasons so far, the inclusion of a ‘Pike’ character and the current mystery of the ‘Red Bursts’/’Red Angel’ storyline have kept me intrigued to see how things get resolved.

I may find the likes of the DISCOVERY’s ‘tardigrade’/organic propulsion system to be as ridiculous a notion as a ‘Klingon’ being modified into a ‘Human’ or Section 31 being a NON-secret organisation after all….but as long as I separate these ‘creative choices’ from the TOS show’s universe, they bother me less. :)

I just hope that DISCOVERY’s unnecessary gore and swearing doesn’t carry over into the upcoming PICARD and SECTION 31 shows also, as it would be a pity if younger members of my family were excluded from being allowed to watch those versions of ‘Star Trek’ too, until they are much older.

Given it’s uneven and po-faced first season overall, I can’t honestly say I’d ever want to re-watch this particular show in future….but if I ever did, then I’d be tempted to re-edit certain episodes to give DISCOVERY a more ‘sanitised’ tone overall….which would lessen the gorier moments and remove any swearing altogether. I’d also get rid of the ‘Klingon’ boobie shots while I’m at it, and numerous ‘Tilly’ moments would certainly not be missed either.

Still, I’m definitely going to check out those ‘alternate Talosians’ next week, with their vertical forehead ridges as opposed to their thick-set brows. They still look great however, and the differences continue to suit my purposes when viewing this show. :)

Pikomen

I share your view of how Section 31 is being handled but I’m curious as to why you feel that klingon body modification in the service of intelligence operations constitutes discordance with TOS, considering Arne Darvin in TOS and DS9?

Tiger2

Arne Darvin was given cosmetic surgery only, ie, just changed his outside appearance. He was still very much a Klingon on the inside and why it took literally only seconds for Bones to determine he was one with a scan. And let’s be honest, at the time Klingons basically looked human anyway. All they did was lighten his skin and got rid of the facial hair, which they didn’t all have either. It wasn’t a big transformation compared to Klingons today.

In Tyler/Voq case, they went waaaaaay deeper than that, literally. They essentially created an actual human out of a Klingon as they not only made him look like the exact clone of another living person (which is common in Star Trek) but then somehow changed his Klingon DNA to human (how he was able to pass the medical scans), including of course realigning all his Klingon anatomy to be human as well. We’re not done yet! They also managed to give him the same memories of the former Tyler including his personality and behavior traits along with his speech patterns. All this for a guy I don’t think ever been in the same room with a human before.

In other words they went from (fairly plausible at least) changing one guy to fit in as human in TOS to a complete species transformation on Discovery. That’s something you only find in comic books and why it felt ludicrous on every level.

Professor Spock

Tiger2 Klingons should join the Federation in the future like the Picard show.

Tiger2

Uh, OK.

Pikomen

I hear you. I interpreted Cervantes as skeptical of klingon body modification in service of intelligence operations in general. Tech-wize it’s far beyond TOS. Still, maybe they figured the procedure a failure (At the end of the day they produced a Section 31 operative) and stuck to basic cosmetic surgery thereafter?!

Tiger2

OK fair enough. I didn’t get thats what Cervantes meant though. I read it as I stated that he was bothered by the complete transformation of Voq himself but I’m not going to speak for him of course.

And I just have to laugh how so many wanted to believe because we were going back to the 23rd century we were going to get more ‘primitive’ tech than we saw in the 24th century and now you have Klingons doing something I don’t think is possible in any century frankly. The Klingons should be winning some galaxy version of a Nobel prize over what they just pulled off.

Professor Spock

Tiger2 the Federation deserves a Nobel Prize, not just Klingons.

Tiger2

I was just joking obviously but if someone can surgically transform one species into another without any remnants of the former species existing they definitely deserve a few prizes over it lol.

Marja

It would’ve made so much more sense if they had laid Voq’s consciousness over Tyler’s. [Looking at that sentence it sounds ludicrous, but not as weird as what they did!] Per TOS the Klingons had something called a Mind-Sifter, so if they could do that, surely they could make Ash the guy they wanted him to be.

ML31

Dax did say the surgeon that worked on Davin did “good work”. Although she was thinking of the the post TMP Klingon look. ;)

The River Temarc

“I just hope that DISCOVERY’s unnecessary gore and swearing doesn’t carry over into the upcoming PICARD and SECTION 31 shows also, as it would be a pity if younger members of my family were excluded from being allowed to watch those versions of ‘Star Trek’ too, until they are much older”

This “swearing” was all of one word, in a pretty innocuous context. Surely the younger members of your family have heard worse on the elementary school playground. I for one don’t want a kiddified Star Trek, which means that people will swear as they do in real life, and that batleths injure people. If that means your kids need to be 18 to watch with your knowledge, so be it!

A34

I learned all my swear words on my first day of school. Trust me, kids have heard and said worst.

TG47

A34 there’s a big difference for a kid between knowing what it means and having a hero model an undesirable behaviour.

We encourage our kids to watch Trek to pick up good values and behaviour not to normalize language that will get them disciplined at school.

At least in the second season there is an ongoing conversation about Tilly’s use of inappropriate language.

But the gore and sexual images in season 1 and Point of Light went far beyond what we’re willing to have conversations about with our preteens.

There is a reason why Discovery is rated PG-14 not PG-8 like the rest of Trek. And 2 episodes were rated Adult Content 18+ in Canada.

The Orville is also PG-14, but we can avoid those with the kids without losing the thread of the series since it’s episodic.

A34

I see no difference. There are no heroes on TV, only actors.

Cervantes

@ A34 – Personally, I can recall how he likes of ‘Captain Kirk’ and others on TOS, and many other tv characters were ‘heroes’ of a sort to my young mind at the time. Still are in a sense. ;)

Sure, it’s only actors spouting whatever a scriptwriter comes up with at the end of the day, but I reckon it’s still a good thing for impressionable youngsters to have some worthy onscreen role-models to root for while they are at an early stage of development. Preferably ones they can watch without their parents feeling uncomfortable.

Cervantes

@ TG47 – Indeed. I was disappointed to find that Trek’s latest return to tv was going to have a much more ‘adult tone than previous versions, in the sense that there was an ‘F’-bomb, ‘Klingon’ sex, and intensely gory moments. I kinda expected that sort of thing from the mooted Tarantino movie, which would have been fine, if not to everyone’s taste…but I didn’t like it included for this tv show personally, as I felt it was too strong for much younger family members to absorb. Pity, as previous iterations of small screen Trek usually afforded good moral viewing for all ages, and allowed for family viewing together.

I understand how the initial makers involved in DISCOVERY may have thought they were giving a ‘hip’ makeover to the source material overall, by doing it this way…but it was as big a misjudgement as some of their other concepts as far as I’m concerned.

It’s interesting to see ‘Tilly’ has been admonished for her language by those now in charge of the show, and that’s something at least.

They have likely picked up on the fact that swearing probably isn’t a good thing for this show, and I doubt were likely to hear anyone else curse worse than ‘Tillys’ use of ‘tricking in future, lol.

Cervantes

‘frickin’ that should have said. Damn autocorrect. :)

Ad Astra Per Aspera

There are still people who believe that Discocery takes place in an alternate timeline? I genuinely thought that theory had died a very welcome death. Good heavens.

Tiger2

Because it doesn’t.

But this is just Cervantes thing. He literally repeats this in every posts he makes about it. I think its weird too but Star Trek fans have their own way about things. Sometimes people do forget this is all fiction.

Cervantes

@ AAPA and T2 – Yeah, it’s definately the only way I can get the best out of this particular show, although I suspect I’m not the only one.

I certainly realise it’s all fiction and ‘supposed’ to lead-in to the TOS show however…but it’s just my preferred method of trying to explain away the numerous inconsistencies and deliberate changes the initial DISCOVERY makers decided on.

It’s proved more fun for me to stick it away in a separate universe from the TOS universe, as a way to keep it integrated into the overall fictional Trek ‘multiverse’ for myself…rather than ditching it as something which is merely a total ‘re-imagining’ of the source era and it’s characters that doesn’t fit in anyway.

Others are welcome to disagree.

Mark

You’re not the only one. I also have to consider it an alternate timeline/parallel universe, until they do something that will reasonably reconcile to canon like they keep claiming they will.

Support Your Local Salt Vampire

The planets that Trek crews visit used to have remarkable resemblances to the mountains of Los Angeles County. Now they resemble quarries and hills of Ontario…

Professor Spock

Support Your Local Salt Vampire Star Trek Discovery is made in Canada not California. Canada is a beautiful place you know.

Marja

Yes, Canada is beautiful, and it has Ontario in it.

Professor Spock

Talos IV is a weird place. Spock is not crazy! He is Jesus Christ.

Mark Z

Not sure if you’re passing the Turing Test here. ;-)

PEWDIEPICARD

Star Trek Discrapery. Wasn’t Section 31 a secret organization? I”m pretty sure 100 years isn’t enough time for them to go into hiding and for people to forget about them. I mean hell, Vulcans live longer than 100 years. Another Kurtzmanism. Crapping all over everything. I pray Picard show is good and faithful to the Primeline.

enterprise1965

The writers are re-writing history.

From TOS The Menagerie, part 1

KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I’m certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the ONLY Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
KIRK: The Enterprise, commanded by Captain Christopher Pike.
MENDEZ: With a half Vulcan science officer named Spock.

Legate Damar

Well, that was just an illusion created by the Talosians, not the real Mendez. Besides, official Starfleet records might not mention that a stolen Section 31 shuttle craft visited the planet.

kmart

It’s only fake Mendez from the shuttlecraft onward, not at base. That idea is what was borne out in TMOST memos, at least.

Tiger2

Unless Section 31 kept Burnham’s and Spocks mission completely off the books? People who are bothered why Section 31 exists on this show, THESE are probably one of the reasons why, to clean up the canon mess they create. ;)

And of course it doesn’t have to be them at all. Don’t forget this story is really about time travel. Who knows what shenanigans will be done when its all over. The timeline could be altered where they never actually went.

Its Star Trek. This kind of stuff is not hard to get around, especially with a time traveler from centuries in the future, an advanced secret covert op group and a bunch of super telepathic aliens all sharing the same story line and who knows who or what else might show up. Don’t be too shocked if Q pops up in the last episode and reveals it was all him who did it because he was bored.

DaveCGN

Yeah but why would god need a starship, in that case the god-like Q need a futuristic technical suit? ;-)

Tiger2

LOL true although I’m not suggesting Q himself would be in the suit, but simply manipulates it. But yes I have seen the theory Q is the Red Angel in other places but its really not that guy’s style. ;)

And obviously I’m not being serious.

Maybe it’s the equivalent of Q doing drag.

TG47

If Fleet Command only knows the reason why, doesn’t it tell one right there that the crucial elements of the file are redacted.

There’s no reason to believe the redacted portions do not effectively contradict the available parts of the file on the question of which ships visited.

If the visit of another ship was part of the reason for the GO, any mention of its existence would be excluded from the unredacted sections.

Captain Creed

More than likely Section 31 kept in under wraps. First season they hid the existence of the Mirror Universe. I argue that this show is a retcon and a soft reboot. The original series does not hold up. I would love to see them develop more TOS characters. Give Uhura, Janice Rand, and Nurse Chapel some love. Women on the original series were damn props.

Marja

^^^ T H I S ^^^

Mark

So I re-watched The Menagerie this weekend and was struck by something. Why did Menendez show Kirk that file completely out of the blue. That scene is before Pike was kidnapped and before the Enterprise left without Kirk. There is no foundation to show the Talos IV file to Kirk at that point. Any theories? Already the phony Menendez and trying to set the stage for the rest of the episode?

Holy crap. YOU’RE RIGHT. I can’t believe in the nearly half-century I’ve been watching Star Trek that I never picked up on that.

Cervantes

@ Pikomen – in answer to your question above, I was meaning that I found the concept of DISCOVERY’s ‘Klingon’ physiology etc. being utterly transformed into the ‘Tyler’ character to be highly unconvincing in the ways that Tiger2 outlined.

On the other hand, as I’m looking on this show (and it’s forthcoming SECTION 13 spin-off) as being set in a different, ‘alternate’ universe to TOS anyway….then whatever, as anything goes….whether it’s bald ‘Klingons’ suddenly sprout hair or not, or whether it’s ‘Spock’ ends up with even more previously unheard-of siblings eventually, or not. ;)

The title of the final episode of this second series certainly has me curious how things may get resolved in all this, however.

Vulcan Soul

What is the title of the final episode? AFAIK that has not been announced yet.

Cervantes

@ Vulcan Soul – I didn’t name it just in case it hadn’t been widely announced, and some may not wish to know it yet at this point in the show.

I like the sound of it however, so will just say that ep. 11 has a two-word title. The first begins with p, and the second begins with i.

Also, there’s some interesting details on the PICARD show characters that are floating around today. They give a good idea of what that show will involve, if they prove to be accurate.

Karl

Perpetual Infinity is already out to the public

That’s not the final episode, that’s episode 11. There are 14 episodes in season two, the last 3 episode titles have not been revealed yet.

We (and other websites) wrote an article about the next wave of episode titles a couple of weeks back, so yeah I think it’s okay to use it in a comment.

Cervantes

Ah, I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.

Looking forward to what everyone will make of the PICARD casting news.

Vulcan Soul

Apart from the alien character, nothing groundbreaking. They really feel comfortable in not challenging their (America-centric) world view, which, incidentally, we were talking about above.

TG47

Sigh, regrettably too true.

Despite the sincere intent to have a diverse and woke cast for Discovery, the diversity represents a particular American demographic diversity.

The Expanse has managed to include 2 women of Indigenous background in main roles (Cara Gee and Frankie Adams).

One notices that all the main characters not from other planets are from the lower 48 even though the USA hasn’t existed for centuries.

Yes, there are South Asians in Seattle, but couldn’t Shazad Latin kept his accent and identity? Why did May Ahern have to be from California?

Including Michelle Yeoh as Georgiou was fantastic, and Picard is from France, but surely Star Fleet can have more recruits from outside the former US…especially when the market outside the US is paying for production of the show.

Fabio

When we began to see Pike beyond “The Cage”, we return to Talos IV. I figured this was going to happen.

Captain Creed

@ Anthony I really love this show. If you talk to Kurtzman ask him if Discovery is a ‘soft’ reboot of the Prime timelines TOS continuity. It seems like it is in my opinion. It is a retcon of the TOS timeline. I wonder how Discovery will reconcile what they have done and will do with the original series. I don’t think the original series holds up anymore. I would love to see a ‘soft reboot’ of the original series. If they have no intentions of going back to the ‘Kelvin Universe’ then we should get another series set in the Prime timeline. It should be set around the Original series episodes. When the original series was on back then,culturally it was a different time and a lot of the things they did back then, would not be on television today. Scotty saying ‘oriental’ makes me cringe when I hear it from the ‘Space Seed’ episode. You could still say that the events of the original series happened but perhaps not in the way they are on screen. Kind of like how Marvel comics acknowledges that the stories from the 60s are canon but we have to see them through a modern lens.

I am interested in seeing Pikes reaction to the Talosians. Discovery is so dope. I love it.

Earth being in peril #344.

Broaden your horizons guys. Earth is boring. Star Trek would probably be better off not featuring Earth at all.

Professor Spock

Jeyl Earth is important to Star Trek.

kmart

So important it was pretty much a rule to never go back there on TOS (except by accident or somesuch.) Threatening earth is a cheap gimmick, borne out by the decision to make TMP a movie instead of a tv show because it used that cheap gimmick.

GermanTrekkie

I admit its really getting old. TNG did it (i think) once with the Borg, and then in the movies it was done to death.
And in DISC it was just done in Season 1 (but not that well).
I look forward to the Talos stuff tho ^^

Thorny

TNG did it in “All Good Things…” too. Sort of. Well, Earth and all the universe.

Afterburn

Watch the Talosians erase Burnham from Spock’s mind… would that satisfy everyone?

khambattafan

A very learned Youtube channel claims all of Discovery is a Talosian illusion made for Mike. The mycelial stuff was conjured by happenstance because the Talosians enjoy eating mushroom stew.

Afterburn

That’s a little bit much. I don’t think they’d go that extreme. There’s also a channel that insists DSC was only renewed to avoid bad PR. SMH.

Bird of Prey

How about: The entirety of the Star Trek franchise except for the first few minutes of “The Cage” is a bunch of illusions for Captain Pike, because he actually never escaped from the Talosian menagerie… ;-)

Bird of Prey

Considering that Tyler LITERALLY murdered him, Culber’s reaction upon seeing him is… understandable.

(Also, I agree that the reimagined Talosians are looking quite good!)

Muse

Holy smokes, I just watched the trailer…I can’t wait for this week’s episode. In fact, I’ve been eagerly awaiting every episode this season. Haven’t enjoyed Trek this much in two decades. Viva Discovery!!

David Alexander Harrison

With the exception of the swapped ship sizes, that shot of the Discovery & a Section 31 ship at warp looks extremely similar to the Enterprise being chased-down by the Vengeance in Star Trek Into Darkness… I presume that is deliberate.

Marja

I am so glad TM staff do these promo analyses, because I must have missed 90% of the promo! Culber tackles Tyler! Lil’ Burnham runs away! Earth!

These promos whip by at top speed, so thank you all.

Professor Spock

Destination Earth

ML31

Talosians look OK to me. Although this is one case where I really didn’t see any need to make any big tweaks. The heads could be a little bigger and there was no real need for the added ridge running from the nose up. And it would be nice if they continued to use women for the roles. But that is real minor stuff. Sadly, though, it is looking like it is heading to a standard, ‘must stop the destruction of Earth’ type trope. I hope not. But would not be surprised if that is where they go.