Jonathan Frakes Talks ‘Star Trek: Enterprise’ Regrets And Optimism For ‘Legacy’ Spinoff

Since starring as William Riker in Star Trek: The Next Generation, Jonathan Frakes has worked his way into more iterations of the franchise as an actor and as a director than anyone else. He is optimistic about continuing this trend into the future; however, there is one Trek appearance from two decades ago he regrets.

Enterprise finale was no “valentine”

When Star Trek: Enterprise was canceled in its fourth season in 2005, it brought to an end the continuous stream of Star Trek television production that had begun in 1987 with TNG. To celebrate the end of an era that included 25 seasons of Trek spread over 4 series, executive producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga transformed the Enterprise finale “These Are The Voyages” into what they called a “valentine” for the fans. Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis reprised their roles of Riker and Troi using a framing device that took place in the Enterprise-D holodeck. Turning the finale into a TNG crossover was not popular with fans of Enterprise, who felt the show’s characters were not getting the proper focus. It turns out that Jonathan Frakes agrees, as he told Variety:

We didn’t quite fit. It was sold as, ‘Oh, come on and do the episode, it will be a Valentine to the fans’ — it wasn’t a Valentine to the fans. The fans didn’t want to see us. Scott Bakula was such a mensch about it, but all these other ‘Trek’ shows went seven seasons. Nobody wanted to be on a ‘Star Trek’ show that didn’t get to go to seven. And the inherent insult in having characters from another series that had done well come in to essentially close the books on his episode — it just felt so wrong to me. I mean, it was a good episode. We had a blast doing it in many ways. The more I think about it, the more I hear from fans about it in particular, it may not have been the best choice we’ve made on ‘Star Trek.’ Again, they’re not all home runs. It’s just unfortunate that that was the last episode of that show.

Troi and Riker in the Star Trek: Enterprise series finale

Marina Sirtis as Troi and Jonathan Frakes as Riker in the Star Trek: Enterprise series finale

Frakes talks Discovery series finale and hopes for “Legacy”

Frakes’ latest connection to the franchise was directing the very well-received Strange New Worlds/Lower Decks crossover episode “Those Old Scientists.” In an extended profile interview in Variety (conducted before the SAG-AFTRA strike), the Trek vet talks about that episode and a number of his other directorial highlights throughout the franchise.

His next connection to the franchise will be for another series finale, this time for Star Trek: Discovery. Paramount+ decided to make the upcoming fifth season the final one after filming was complete on the season as well as a two-part season finale. Frakes talked to Variety about filming the first part:

I directed the first half of the finale of Season 5, which turned out to be the real finale. So that was a very emotional end as well. When we did it, we didn’t know it was the end. And then [‘Discovery’ executive producer and director] Olatunde Osunsanmi had to go back up and do two or three days of new stuff to actually make the finale the finale.

Of course, Jonathan Frakes played a huge role in the recent third and final season of Star Trek: Picard, appearing in every episode and directing two of them. He has made no secret of his ambition to be involved in the “Star Trek: Legacy” potential spin-off envisioned by executive producer Terry Matalas. Frakes tells Variety:

I think they can’t deny not only the fan reaction, but the fact that the numbers put the show at the Top 10 on the streaming charts. And that season of ‘Star Trek: Picard’ was arguably the among the best seasons of any ‘Star Trek’ — I think we all agree on that. I mean, ‘Star Trek’ fans are loyal. It’s not millions and millions of people, and it’s not the youngest fandom in the world. But I am an eternal optimist, and I believe in a perfect world, they will find the assets and the energy and hire Terry to put together this ‘Legacy’ show and that will, in fact, come to fruition.

Marina Sirtis as Deanna Troi and Jonathan Frakes as Will Riker in “The Last Generation”

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And that season of ‘Star Trek: Picard’ was arguably the among the best seasons of any ‘Star Trek’ — I think we all agree on that.” – love ya Frakes, but no…we do not all agree on that. Picard 1 was eh…ok, Picard 2 was bad. Picard 3 was eh…ok.

Speak for yourself.

Yup. Speak for yourself.

Actually, Frakes was the one saying, “we all agree on that,” not nkc. nkc clearly said, “we do not all agree.” So nkc clearly said he was not speaking for everyone — Frakes was the one suggesting that he was.

Your disagreement should be with Frakes, not nkc.

I don’t always agree w/ UppderDecks-NormalNecks but yeah…I clearly was speaking for myself. And – go back and look at the Picard S3 episode review threads here, I’m not the only one. I’m not saying I hate it. But 100% love and thinking it’s the best of ANY Star Trek…he’s just doing what creatives do. There’s a 20 year waiting period before you can criticize a project – especially if you want to keep getting paid in that franchise

Same here, Frakes was speaking for everyone, not you

Well if you people are going to start speaking for yourselves, then I might start speaking for myself, and no one wants that.

S3 was amazing. Perfect? No, but still amazing.

S3 felt wonderful because of the full (almost) TNG reunion and for all the other nostalgia. But I have to admit IMHO the story itself sucked.

But I have to admit IMHO the story itself sucked.


Like, the founder off set was following the borg why exactly? And I will admit the idea of humans being assimilated in such a way does cme from Voyager but the way they went about it was just uugghhhh

I agree SO much!


Oh please. Take away all the nostalgia, all the easter eggs, all the cameos, all the fan service and there was barely anything left.

Oh please. Take away all the nostalgia, all the easter eggs, all the cameos, all the fan service and there was barely anything left.

Agreed. Unfortunately, for many, that was enough though.

It was enough for a taste. Not to support and entire series long run. Even nostalgia gets old.

Hey, I was grouchy about S3 before it aired, and when I embraced the fan service suck episodes 1-5 were very enjoyable. Episode 6 entered the Pandering Zone, from there it was all mailed in.
So it was kinda sorta enough, Mr. Frakes gatekeeping aside.

I tend to agree. And as someone who does not feel a lot of nostalgia for TNG I feel like my perspective on it is more balanced. The front half wasn’t too bad. The trope of Picard’s long lost son was a tired one but beyond that the story was acceptable. Once Amanda Plummer was dealt with it felt like there was nothing left. The story fell apart completely. At that point nothing worked. Including the “what’s behind the door” mystery. Mainly because I never cared about Picard Jr to begin with.

All that said it was overall certainly better than most of the Trek we’ve been getting lately. But I found Insurrection better than Picard S3.

Season 3 of Picard is my absolute favorite of NuTrek by miles. I’ve seen it 3 times now. Absolutely love it!

I still gotta give it to SNW my friend :)

I like SNW too, certainly better than Picard season 1 and 2 and ALL of Discovery. 😉

But prequels will never be as good for me as a sequel show when done right.

love ya Frakes, but no…we do not all agree on that. Picard 1 was eh…ok, Picard 2 was bad. Picard 3 was eh…ok.

Well said — you nailed it with this statement, dude. S3 was great acting and good for TNG re-union fan service elements, but S1 was actually better Star Trek — problem solving and real science fiction, unlike the Star Warsy S3 action adventure.

“S1 was actually better Star Trek”

lol you high? Or just trolling?

It was science fiction and had thoughtful problem solving — that’s what TNG always did. S3 was space-opera, action adventure — more like Star Wars with space zombies — it was very un-TNG like.

It is what is is — and I’m not saying that this means that S3 wasn’t much more popular than S1, because it obviously was. But S1 was much more like TNG that we all know and love than S3 was. You are kidding yourself if you disagree.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

Saying it was better Trek isn’t saying it was classic – I’d agree with the observation and extend the benefit of the doubt to season two as well. Season 3 was beautifully made (IMO), and the actors were all on their Trek A game, but the story was a clusterf**k even by action movie standards. It was a success, as it drove viewers to a failing Streamer platform.

I don’t see how S3 was anything remotely like Star Wars. It *clearly* wears its TOS movie influence on its sleeves. But you do you.

A lot of people have commented on this, including the podcasters on this site. For example here it’s summarized very nicely from the r/Picard moderator on Reddit:

Season 3 seems to have been influenced by Star Wars elements.

Data’s trench run and gut feeling mirror Luke’s experience during his own trench run.Deanna’s ability to sense their location is reminiscent of Leia’s feeling at the end of The Empire Strikes Back when she locates Luke.Jack, like Vader, desires to rule the galaxy and is swayed by the Queen (who represents the Emperor).The Queen embodies the Emperor in several ways, including the Star Wars sequels’ portrayal of the Emperor resurrecting himself and consuming the life force of others to heal (similarly, the Queen sustains herself by consuming her own kind).Picard leaving Riker and Worf to save Jack parallels Luke leaving his friends and sister to redeem Vader.Riker and Worf’s actions are akin to disabling the shields for the second Death Star run.The final sequence, where the central beacon of the Borg cube is destroyed and the cube explodes, is a clear homage to the Death Star’s destruction.
And there are many more comments like this. This is far from just me noticing this.

Interesting though how you did not contest my comment about space zombies being a part of the season (well, not really, since they obviously are…lol)

Frakes, it was ok. Of all of nu-trek, possibly argue it was in the top 2 (SNW still by far gets the vote). In all of trek, not even a top 5.

I loved Season 3 as well. But it doesn’t mean there couldn’t be room for improvement either. I’m hoping that’s what will happen with the Legacy show if it comes to fruition.

lol is that you Kurtzman? Or Akiva? Picard S3 was pretty much universally praised and even brought back the hardened nu-Trek haters. Most fans are sick of lethargic prequels that go way off the canon rails. Time for the grown ups to take charge again and keep moving the franchise forward into the 25th century. #StarTrekLegacy

Again, really?

I feel kind of sad and embarrassed for you that you need to make fun of people who just don’t share your opinion on this.

The irony of wanting to “keep moving the franchise forward” … whilst also praising Picard S3 which was nothing apart from fan service, cameos and nostalgia to a time when Trek was good.

There was very little forward-looking about season three. It was very much a coda — sometimes a good one that mostly honored its source material, but hardly proof-of-concept for a 25th century show.

I agree with the idea you’re advocating — all of the prequels have been underwhelming. But I don’t see how a 25th century show will benefit from Jack Crusher, the La Forge brood, and so on. A “Star Trek kids” concept is going to suffer from the same flaws as the prequels; namely, being too closely bound to the original.

The most promising parts of S3 as an audition for LEGACY were the new Starfleet characters: Shaw, T’Veen, and Ohk. But they killed off most of those.

There was very little forward-looking about season three. It was very much a coda — sometimes a good one that mostly honored its source material, but hardly proof-of-concept for a 25th century show.

Yeah, it was OK as one-off, sentimental fan service giving closure to TNG, but by no means does it provide a model for a follow-on series.

The irony of wanting to “keep moving the franchise forward” … whilst also praising Picard S3 which was nothing apart from fan service, cameos and nostalgia to a time when Trek was good.

I’d go a step further and label that as hypocrisy.

Why the hell would Kurtzman be against Picard’s success. He is a producer on it. Changing the name of the Titan was lame in my opinion.

Agreed! For me, SNW Season 1 was the best season of modern Star Trek.

100% agreed!

Yeah. It was good. But it was was mostly nostalgia. If those were original characters. It would still be a good season but nowhere newar the best of Star Trek.

“Picard 1 was eh…ok, Picard 2 was bad. Picard 3 was eh…ok.” Was it? Oh, ok. Thank you for the correction of Frakes.

I agree with seasons 1 and 2 being ok at best. Season 3 was far better and a fitting end. The character Rafi was ridiculous. Calling Picard “JL”?? Really? She was a throw away character for sure.

There is a lot to take in here:

These are the voyages was a great episode
Star Trek Picard S3 was amongst some of the best Trek ever

My favourite is, the 2 or 3 more days of writing to make the S5 Discovery finale the real finale (says it all about the quality of writing on that show)

Personally I can not imagine anything worse for Star Trek at this moment in time than a “legacy” show created by Terry Matalas, but if the ratings are there then it will happen no doubt.

I am mildly excited for a 4th Kelvin movie, but Trek on TV is dead and the movies are only worth watching because they are at least better written than the shows, there is less time in 2 hours to get it so wrong, but the Kelvin movies are not where they should be either.

I really miss Star Trek, we have not had it since 2005, almost 20 years now

as much as I think Discovery is mediocre at best, I don’t think that they had to do a bit of retrofitting to make the season finale a series finale is indicative of anything beyond them not knowing it was going to be the series-ender. I’d rather they get the opportunity to do something than do a ‘Turnabout Intruder’.

Absolutely agree! I am not huge fan of Discovery either but they deserve better than that. Hopefully the new material will give it a proper send off. They did launch a new era of trek and some of the characters and plot lines were pretty decent. For me though it just never came together as a whole. Here’s hoping season 5 lives up to its most devoted fan’s expectations!

Personally I can not imagine anything worse for Star Trek at this moment in time than a “legacy” show created by Terry Matalas, but if the ratings are there then it will happen no doubt.

Agreed. And I don’t thing the ratings will translate over to a non-TNG cast reunion show — that’s a huge assumption that the studio execs are not likely to buy into, nor should they.

I think it was a fun, if imperfect, one-off season, and we all just need to move on now, including Matalas.

I think the studio is more likely to do a DS9 and Voyager nostalgia show now if they are going to base their decisions for new productions on the Picard S3 ratings.

That’s the beauty of the Legacy show, you can add more DS9 and VOY characters on the show too.

The Legacy show is not a TNG sequel it’s a TNG era show. That’s why Seven is Captain of the Enterprise and not Geordie or Worf.

But the ratings, hype and fan love is too big too ignore. Paramount+ needs real hits if it’s going to survive. This is an absolute no-brainer!

Terry Trek is what excites a lot of the base right now and for good reason! 😎

It’s the direction that Star Trek should have gone, forward not boldly going backwards again after the lackluster Enterprise. Instead we get 3 rebooted Kirk movies and 2 more prequal series.
For those that mention it in nearly every post about Matalas season 3 movie style send off as being pure nostalgia.
What exactly is SNW then, now we have Kirk popping up every other week ffs. Disney like puke inducing musical coming up and cartoon comedy crossovers, ‘look how diverse our episodes are’, erm no thanks when half of season 2 is instantly forgettable. Yes there is a crowd that like this lighter more comedic Star Trek.
I want a real Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager sequel series that explores a more interesting timeline for me in which the Legacy series will go.
TG1701 like you that’s the Star Trek that excites me.
I loved Twelve Monkeys which is a lot better than much of the Star Trek we have be watching and unlike a lot of Sci fi series had a great finale. There is no reason Matalas could not make a very good Star Trek series that would at least be different than SNW.

I’ll speak strictly for myself and say I have never been much of a prequel guy and why Enterprise, he Kelvin movies and Discovery never truly excited me when they were all announced. Of course I was curious about all of them and with the Kelvin movies and Discovery, I was just ready for more Star Trek by then so that alone kept me invested.

But I will be very honest, the announcement of Picard was really the first time since Voyager ended I was generally excited for more Trek. It wasn’t just about bringing back an iconic character and actor back to the fold, it was just nice, FINALLY, we are moving forward again in a franchise that is ABOUT moving forward. If they made more Kelvin movies, I would’ve watched them. And same for DIS every season as well, but it was the Picard show where I really became invested as long time fan again because while it was going back to nostalgia bait, all possibilities were possible again. We don’t know where any of it is going anymore. If they brought back any legacy characters, it would be a continuation of their story and not just filling in to things we kind of knew about as most prequels do. “Hey, I bet you didn’t know THIS about Khan, did you??” Oh Kahless, just fucking kill me now.

Now I generally like SNW, it’s fun and it’s nice to be back on the original Enterprise, especially for us old TOS fans. But am I begging for more of it, no, I’m not. I love Pike and Spock but we already know where those stories will ultimately end. Hell, we know where the Enterprise story will end lol. That’s why it’s very hard for me to get excited for prequels, but I do enjoy SNW a lot. But if that was the show that premiered in 2017 and NOT Discovery, people would’ve been much happier IMO instead of a lot of eye rolling they when they were told yet ANOTHER prequel was coming. But who knows, they may have hated the idea more than they hated Discovery lol. At least Discovery didn’t feel like a rehash.

And yes I love 12 Monkeys as well. I was a fan of it the first day it aired ad I’ve even gotten a few posters here to check it out and they all seemed to have loved it. Matalas proves how creative and solid his story telling skills are and why I would love a new Star Trek show by him; one where he has all the creative power from the start.

OMG second time today I responded to the wrong person. 🙄

Typing on a new phone can be a pain.

LOL no worries!

Cool! 👍

Most Trek fans agree, time to end prequels.

Well I don’t think you need to end them, but there has to be a balance at least. Someone somewhere got it in their head that fans really wanted more prequels and from what I see that’s never really been the case. People were iffy on Enterprise from the start, but I understood why they decided to go that way at the time. Star Trek had been running continuously for 15 years and 21 of those seasons in the 24th century (although UPN itself wanted another sequel show actually and where the problems started). So the idea was interesting even if the execution of it was flawed.

With the Kelvin movies, they were attempting to restart the entire franchise to gain new fans and with the original iconic characters. Again, didn’t like it personally and I been a fan since the late 70s, but I certainly understood it although It ended with mixed results similar to Enterprise but hey they gave it a shot…and a lot of money lol.

But Discovery I feel was an absolute mistake to keep going backwards. By this point fans wanted to go forward again and give us a setting where anything and everything was possible again. People really wanted to see a post-Nemesis universe, be that 10, 20 or 50 years after the fat. They obviously realized it was a mistake when they sent the show to the 32nd century but probably a bit too late by then because many had just soured on the show overall.

Now people had easily accepted SNW but that was for two reasons. A. They just really liked Pike and the idea of being back on the original Enterprise but also B. Because by then there were already 3 post-Nemesis shows on the air and a fourth one on the way. I guarantee you if it was ONLY SNW and that’s it, the complaints of not going forward would still be there even if people liked the show.

But I will be very honest, the announcement of Picard was really the first time since Voyager ended I was generally excited for more Trek.

Well, I agree with this. But the problem (to extend my Bond analogy) is that Picard was a bit more like NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN. We’re no longer seeing Picard in his prime; I actually liked the way that the series embraced that fact.

Yeah I can’t disagree with this either. I didn’t have a big problem with him being older. No he wasn’t the same Picard, but some ways that was a positive. Early TNG Picard was not someone you wanted to have a beer with. I do love the fact the character has opened up so much in 30 years.

In fact one of the biggest applause the finale got at the IMAX screening was when Picard first offered to play poker in 10 Forward. People LOVED that lol. Its kind of weird, he comes off older….but yet cooler lol.

For real bro! 👍

For many people, Star Trek should always be going forward, not backwards.

And I’m a 90s kid and when I first got into Star Trek I really only cared about TNG/DS9/VOY. That’s my era of Star Trek, what I really only watched regularly for decades and wants more of it.

But I think it’s a generation thing too. If you are someone watching Trek in the 60s, 70s or 80s many of them want more prequels and love stuff like Enterprise/JJ verse/Discovery etc. But for most fans who started in the 90s to now want Trek to keep going forward because it’s what most of us knew

I’m not saying everybody of course I’m just speaking in general. I’ve seen people my age or younger want more TOS or ENT. I also seen people who grew up with TOS to keep going forward as well and hate the prequel stuff. But most younger fans want more TNG era stuff and because a lot of those actors are still around.

But I’m not anti prequel either. I really like Enterprise a lot today. But originally just couldn’t care about when the Federation was formed, how did Starfleet first meet the Andorians and all of that. Complete snooze fest for me bro. All this happened centuries ago so why do I care??? I stopped watching that show after 12 episodes. But as I got older and more got more into Star Trek in general I did start to enjoy it more and today watch it quite a bit, especially seasons 3 and 4. Love both of those.

Also why I like SNW today too. I still don’t care to know how Spock and T’PRING will break up or how boring NuKirk and Spock first met; it’s all a big shrug to me. Those guys been dead for awhile now too. But it’s a least a good show again that actually feels like Star Trek. I don’t actually care about any of the canon stuff but and when will Sulu first show up; but they are at least exploring again and telling fun sci Fi stories. That’s what I care most about on any show.

But hopefully we’ll get more of that on the Legacy show and follow characters again who we haven’t seen die already. 😉

There is some of that. But I still would like to go forward. I’d just like to go forward from TUC. :)

I would be down for a prequel to the TNG era too. That’s about 70-80 years before TNG starts so lots to cover. I really would love to see the Federation first contact with Carsassians and that went so wrong?

“[I don’t care about how] NuKirk and Spock first met; it’s all a big shrug to me”

Exactly. It’s like “they were military officers assigned to the same ship.” They don’t need to be Drinking Buddies That Go Way Back.

Yeah I never once watched TOS or the movies thinking ‘I wonder how these two met?’ as if it was some huge mystery or story point. Since they are both Starfleet officers I imagine they met on the ship they are working on together. If they met sooner than that, fine, I think all you need is a line and that would be it because IDGAF since it has zero bearing in the show itself.

How Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader is a real question and you can make a story out of it (even if still ultimately a bad one). The Spock/Kirk thing is just more minutae and utterly unnecessary to show, but this is how prequels work.

That goes into the same category as “How did Han Solo get his name?”

Both SNW and PIC are nostalgia. The HUGE difference is that PIcard is a serialized show with one season long plot. If you get that wrong everything for the season and maybe even the series is doomed. SNW is Episodic. They can be whatever they want from week to week.

Indeed. Too often they decide to be crap.

Yes there is a crowd that like this lighter more comedic Star Trek.

It’s very much like SUPERMAN III and Roger Moore-era James Bond. Some people adore it, and indeed their voices tend to be loud, if only due to survivorship bias. But they won’t sustain a franchise that otherwise seems cartoonish and creatively bankrupt.

I actually e-mailed Tim Lynch, TNG reviewer extraordinaire, just before DISCO premiered to ask whether he was planning to review the new series. His response suggested to me that he wasn’t even planning to watch. I didn’t always agree with his take on TNG, but while I obviously don’t speak for him, I share enough of it to suspect that if he has tuned in, he seems little worthwhile.

I will take it continuing VOY but man at this rate I want a DS9 follow up to just be about following up on DS9 so it can’t be neglected. Sorry to be a donkey but after the way Vadic was thrown away I would rather DS9 follow be its own thing or just continue in LD because so far LD has been proving they can. I’m waiting to see if they bring the Breen back though before I fully judge there but also LD being its own thing is good too.

Oh agreed man! With our conversation from last week you know how much of a DS9 I became. I started out watching Trek with Voyager but DS9 ultimately won me over that show but still love them both and down for either one to continue.

But I don’t think we will get a sequel of any show. We are kind of getting a Voyager sequel with Prodigy but that’s now been cancelled. But most of us want those characters in live action anyway even if you liked Prodigy. My own girlfriend loves Voyager but can’t really get into Prodigy because it feels too much like a kids show to her (but love it a hundred times over Lower Decks).

I’m down with anything that gets us more 24thor 25th century Trek though. And would love more DS9 stuff on Lower Decks next season too.

I don’t think we will either. Especially what I particularly want which is actually follow up on the Dominion proper (mostly the Jem’Hadar and Vorta).

In case anyone gets upset about me saying this, it won’t happen and I know that, I’m just being gay. Go ramble about how fans just want legacy characters to someone who cares. Since LD has Jeffrey Combs, I want to see Weyoun in the LD style. It will never happen but I think it’d be cute.

I think that would be awesome too

The problem is a DS9 follow up would be so hard to do. Rene Auberjonois and and Aron Eisenberg have sadly left us. Avery Brooks and Alexander Siddig have both commented numerous times that Trek is behind them and they aren’t interested in returning. Dax was killed off. The best we could do is a DS9 follow up show is with Captain Kira and a brand new cast of supporting related to the original ala the hypothetical Legacy show.

I do agree and I never wanted all of the old characters back in the first place. What I wanted was something more like Prodigy but what I really really want is just a new crew exploring the gamma quadrant more. With an update on how the Dominion is doing that you can find a way to do without Odo. If we get any of the people from DS9 back, Kira at the station is good and also some of the Vorta. Like uh Molly Hagan if she’s still around and acting. Eris being seen again would be nice. And of course I’d never say no to seeing Weyoun again but I know that’s very unlikely.

Sure, I would be down for all of that, I’m just saying it might be a hard sell to the studio. Picard itself was never really a true success even with Sir Patrick Stewart till they brought the entire TNG cast back in S3


Eris being seen again would be nice

I do wish we had seen Eris more than once.

A large check would change Siddig’s mind pretty quick I think. Remember all the BS about Spinner feeling that way…and that he ends up playing a force-fitted character every year on Picard as Kurtzman keeps cutting him checks…lol

I think you start a new follow-on show with Kira, Jake and Siddig, and you find a way to bring back Jadzia as well…that’s enough to work with.

Give Ezri another chance though. It’s not her fault they brought her in so late and threw her at relationship after relationship.

I agree it’s not Nicole Deboer’s fault. She was just given a crappy role and acted with it. I get what they were trying to do with turning a Dax into a Counselor but her first best destinies were always as a warrior or a technical scientist / Engineer

I don’t think it was her career either. I can see Dax being a counselor working and besides isn’t it a part of trill’s entire thing to do something different with every new host? I think it was just when she was introduced and why she was so giving her a second chance might go a long way to helping fans adjust to her.

Sure. Might be true about Siddig. Not Brooks tho, his health from what I hear can’t take it.

Exactly. P+ only has 2 franchises that can pull in top 10 streaming ratings. The Yellowstone franchise and Trek. Those alone are not enough.

Exactly man. P+ is a better service than the embarrassing CBSAllAcess, but I still just watch because of Star Trek. I bet you most people here mostly because of Star Trek. They might watch other things on it but most pay for it due to Star Trek. I don’t know anyone who has it now.

And it’s not a bad service but competition is just too high these days. Someone said it may not make a profit for another four years. They need as much Trekkie money they can get. A Legacy show will easily bring in the money. If it’s really good even more.

Yes. I have P+ just for Star Trek and other tv show reruns. P+ is nowhere near Apple TV+ or Netflix or even MAX without Trek behind it.

I’m no fan of P+ but to be fair according to USA Today (take that for what it’s worth) P+ is listed as the 5th most subscribed to service. Apple is #7.

I’m not surprised Apple is that low. The biggest problem with that service is they don’t have a real library. There are no IPS or brands like all the other sites. They put out a lot of original content, a lot of it good, but it’s still not something you have to keep all year either. There are a lot of shows I really gotten to like on it, the latest Silo which I never even heard of until a month ago and watched it. But there is probably 1-2 shows running at a time that people want o see and at $7, it’s easy to just cancel that and wait for a few to end and binge. I’ve already decided to do that for Foundation and I liked season one. But sorry, I can’t afford to keep all these services to just watch ONE show. I do it with Star Trek but very rarely the others.

There’s not much point to a DS9 coda. DS9’s story has been told, and two of the three most important characters can’t be reprised. Brooks no longer is acting and shows no appetite for a return; Auberjonois is sadly no longer with us.

I agree that a VOY coda might work as another one-off miniseries.


I just wouldn’t be very surprised if the suits at P+ decide it is a good idea to mine existing properties for some easy subscriptions because they got good results with Picard S3. Not that I would complain if they did do that.

The assumption is a Legacy show would have the Enterprise G with Seven in command. She is a fan favorite character and alone could probably pull in ratings.

Maybe. But it’s not equivalent to Stewart, Spinner and the full TNG cast reunion. I don’t think that all transfers just because you have her, and I like her too…but it’s not like she’s Shatner, Nimoy or Stewart…and VOY is not as popular or as well known by the general public as TNG and TOS are by a long shot.

True, but conversely Jeri Ryan has had a long career post VOY, She has a huge fan following even if she is not James T Kirk or Jean Luc Picard or even Data.

A few years ago — it may have been back when VOY was still on the air — I saw an episode of “Family Feud” in which the survey-says question was “name a Star Trek character.”

The answers were all TOS and TNG, except for one; that one exception was Seven of Nine. I think she’s weaved her way into the cultural zeitgeist.

Wasn’t Voyager one of the popular shows streaming on Netflix at one point? I thought I had read that somewhere.

Voyager is very popular today. And yes it was one of the most restreamed shows on Netflix and 7 of the top 10 replayed Trek shows were Voyager episodes. BUT I think part of it had to do with those shows having the Borg around. And people are shocked why the Borg showed up in three straight seasons of Picard. Fans claimed to be tired of them but looking at the viewer scores of all their episodes, they have no problem bringing in people to watch them again and again.

And I think we also have to remember the majority of Trek fans are casual fans. They are the ones who will watch a show because a legacy character or Q or the Borg is in an episode and will watch that over and over again. And yeah with Q back, that’s even another reason the Legacy show would be popular and probably why season 2 was still a hit even though most thought it sucked.

I had hear that too. I’m a bit skeptical of that though given that that supposed level of popularity wasn’t able to prop up Prodigy.

tbh it’s because of how people look at animation. As you’ve seen here with quite a few people, people will refuse to watch animated stuff. So it’s not the fault of Voyager at all, it’s just that people think animation is lesser than live action. Which I guess is fair. They’re actually both equal in my opinion but that’s just that, my opinion.

Of course people will say it’s the fault of kids but honestly if we really want to point fingers and blame people for it. They need to pointed at Paramount for how badly they mismanaged things.

It has nothing to do with Voyager. In fact reading about the show the past year, most people who are watching it are only doing it because Janeway was on it and why I suspect she’s even there, to get more adults invested.

It’s like suggesting TAS failed after two seasons because there was too much Kirk and Spock on the show.

And I don’t think it’s just animation because LDS is still going strong but I think like TAS branding it a ‘kid’s show’ is what kept most people away. Sure I agree being animated already had a big strike against it, but calling it a kid’s show is ultimately what doomed it more than anything IMO.

And I also agree, Paramount has to be blamed too. First off, they show half of season one but then waited nearly a year to show the second half. A LOT of people complained about it because I’m guessing a lot of kids just moved on by then. Then I guess the weird scheduling issue they had with Nickelodeon just didn’t help. Originally it was just suppose to air on Nickelodeon since they ordered it. And then we heard it was going to be on P+ too, but after it aired on Nick. And then that was changed and P+ got it first because my guess is they thought it would be better to target the Star Trek fans first and have more Trek content on content starved P+ for them to watch.

It may not have had much of a difference but maybe it should’ve aired exclusively on Nick first and not break up the schedule so much in its first season. Maybe none of that would’ve mattered but since it was made for kids, then make them the priority first and us oldies would catch it later.

Most of the viewers are there because Captain Janeway from Voyager is in it, therefore It has a lot to do with Voyager. You can’t say one of these is true without having the other be true.

And therefore I think I’m right on this — I think it’s simply that the amount of voyager fans set isn’t nearly as large as the next generation set of fans because the next generation fans are certainly propping up lower decks to ratings success, regardless of how they feel about animation,

Agreed as well. In fact I had no big interest to watch it until I heard Janeway would be on it because I don’t like animated shows in general and they made this one sound too kiddy. But being a huge Voyager fan I was into the idea after that.

It could still not be for me but I told myself I will watch the first season no matter what. If I can watch Discovery, this can’t be too bad right? 😉

This ended up being way better than I thought. I still had some issues with it in the beginning but by episode 10 of the season I knew this was the show for me, Janeway or not.

But I think there were too many others like me for dismissing the show before it even started. Or they just felt it wasn’t interesting enough.

I still want it to find a new home of course but now it’s a better chance Janeway will pop up on love action on the future now so glass half full I guess.

And you can’t blame the kids. Star Trek is really an older thing and it still more a niche for a lot of people out there. They been trying to get more normies to like it but it’s not something people can really love unless they give it a real chance. I made this point for myself I never gave it until college but most of my old friends or family ever got into it to this day.

Yeah that’s true, there is a better chance we will get a live action Janeway sooner than later now which is what most fans want anyway. And Matalas wanted her to show up in Picard as well, but yeah, money. ;)

And you can’t blame the kids either, it’s just not a show that relates to them as others even though I thought the show did an amazing job to attract them. But I’m not a kid nor have any, so I don’t pretend to really know. But if it does get a new home, who knows, it may still be a good chance to attract more of them.

It definitely was and it kind of sucks now leaving that service where more people were exposed to it to be on a much smaller site like Paramount+. At least the shows are still on Netflix worldwide.

Agreed. I mean if it’s a Seven show in the 25th century on the Enterprise with the possiblity of TNG/DS9/VOY characters showing up versus an Academy show with a bunch of teenage newbies in the 32nd century and some DIS characters, it’s not even a contest lol. People would flock to watching a Seven show. Maybe not as much as Picard, but pretty up there IMO.

Again, the petition for it is twice the number of the Pike show and we saw how much people wanted that. You can’t talk both sides out of your mouth pretending a Pike show can be a hit but somehow the Legacy show would be a dud when there seems to be waaaay more people pushing for it and many fans were already suggesting a Seven spin off show as far back as Picard season one. First there was the Fenris Rangers idea in season 1. In season 2, it became the Captain Seven Stargazer show. Now it’s FINALLY a real possibility with her being Captain of the Enterprise. It’s a no-brainer of epic proportions.

That’s why it’s more of a when than an if because people have wanted a Seven show literally every season now and Matalas was smart enough to hone in on that. Even Akiva Goldsman said he wants it made and it should be, but he likes money like every Hollywood producer.

You said it all man!

And I was pushing for a Seven show the minute she showed up in the first trailer. 😂

A Seven show over a Silly Tilly Academy show with a bunch of CW teenagers in the 32nd century finding true love for the first time or a very special episode where the 17 year old Andorian understands what teamwork means is certainly a hard choice.

Yeah fans can’t wait to watch that dribble in a century most people don’t even care about starring one of the most annoying characters in Star Trek next to Neelix…and Neelix. Maybe she won’t star in it but these hacks made her a first officer and then a ‘teacher’ at the Academy although she’s literally 900 years out of date with everything. Expect to see her Academy President when it starts though because hacks have to keep being hacks.

Legacy show with one of the most popular and iconic character in Star Trek exploring again on the ENTERPRISE with other legacy characters dropping in from time to time…I don’t know man if that can work? Just sounds so risky?

But an Academy show no one was begging for based on one of most hated shows in Trek in a century that has no bearing with any other Trek show or legacy characters with a bunch of teenagers sitting in classrooms..where do I sign up to watch????

Trekkies are counting down the days for that dreck. 🙄

TNG proved 35 years ago that you can make new characters popular and you will still get devoted fans if you have a good show. It happened again with DS9, then again with Voyager. Didn’t go as well with Enterprise lol, but even that show is more popular with younger fans today. But Star Trek has proven you don’t need a ship full of iconic legacy characters, 1 or 2 is really all you need and you have an audience. In the 90s you didn’t need ANY iconic characters to make the show a hit but today is a different story I imagine.

The point of the Legacy show will attract old fans who want to see Seven and whoever else pops up (because we all know there will probably be Worf, Riker or Janeway with a recurring role of some kind and build even more buzz) but then bring in new characters as we saw with the bridge crew that will eventually get some new fans on their own. But let’s not kid ourselves, none of these shows are going to bring in a large subset of new fans at this point. It’s not the old TNG days or the 90s when you can bump into a show on a network and try it out for a season. Especially a service doing as badly as P+. But it will definitely bring in more fans who wants a live action post-Nemesis show again and this time focus more on exploration or strange anomalies, ie, the 90s or what SNW has been doing every week. ;)

And for the record, I am for the Academy show, but the argument seems to be that show will bring in a ‘younger’ set of fans and I just don’t really buy that. Prodigy sadly proved that’s really easier said than done. Star Trek is not great at being market growers, that’s exactly why every show on now is geared to old fans and not new ones. Prodigy was the first show they said was specifically made to draw in new fans and it was cancelled after one season. I don’t think teenagers will suddenly start watching Star Trek because there are 18 old Klingons and Cardassians around making out.

The Seven show will get an audience instantly, the same audience PIC, SNW and DIS got in the beginning anyway, if not more. There is not a single reason not to put this show on other than Paramount just might be too poor to make it lol. And btw, Matalas confirmed in the Shuttle Podcast interview why the Khan show didn’t happen. That’s the show he was originally hired make. But once they started to budget the Picard show, they realized it was going to be very expensive and there was not enough money to make a Khan show, so it was cut. And probably why Lower Decks got the green light instead because it was just cheaper to make. ;)

So if they just can’t afford the Legacy show, I can see that as a possibility obviously why it wouldn’t get made. But in the long term it will probably bring in more money and views than the Academy show even if that’s cheaper.

Wow that’s interesting about the Khan show. I completely forgot that was a thing at one point. 😂

Like why would you make a show about a guy stuck on a barren planet for 10 years? The show is called Star Trek, I want to see people on starships exploring, not another Adolf and his Augment cronies hanging out on a boring planet for 5 seasons but I digress. I just don’t get Kurtzman obsession with Khan. The character died, move on.

As far as new people watching Star Trek because they know the characters I can tell you for a fact new fans don’t care or remotely know the difference about ANY of it because I was one of them. I didn’t start watching Trek until my first year in college. The only character name I knew growing up was Kirk. I didn’t even know who Spock was. I recognize the character but I never learned his name until college. I knew Picard and Sisko but that was only because I came across an article about Emissary before DS9 started. I actually knew who Data was. That was really the only Star Trek character I actually knew something about at the time and that he was an android. How, I couldn’t tell you.

And I have to stress I got through 18 years of my life knowing completely zilch about any of it and I’m American. I used to live in Asia where people may have heard the show Star Trek but absolutely nothing beyond that. And I’m even talking about after the Kelvin movies came out. I knew people in Japan and China and it was a completely foreign concept to them like anime is a completely foreign concept to most people over 30 or 40 today. Sure they may tell you they heard of anime but it stops there. The idea any of these characters are household names outside of mostly western countries is laughable. Star Trek has never been a thing worldwide. Maybe more now thanks to the internet and more of it recent years but most people in many places of the world still couldn’t tell you the difference between Kirk and Sisko.

For a lot of people out there who don’t watch the show or science fiction in general, all of it is still a blank unless you know someone who watches it. I’m guessing anyone who watches any of the new shows today but never watched Trek before is either because someone they know watches some of it or they have Paramount+ and they try it out of curiosity.

For the overwhelming majority of new fans it’s all a complete blur to them as it was to me. I only watched it because a friend and someone I was dating at the time were hardcore fans and how I started watching Voyager.

To be clear about the Khan show, it was actually just a mini-series. Nic Meyer was going to write it and then Matalas would actually make it. It was only going to be 3 episodes IIRC. But that proves that Trek isn’t given some huge unlimited budget when they had to cancel a 3 hour miniseries to make way for Picard (and definitely the right decision ratings wise at least). They are suppose to be doing a podcast with it now, but we’ve heard zilch about it since, so who knows. I wouldn’t have mind seeing the miniseries but yeah that money can go to stories NOT regurgitating the past over and over again with dead characters.

And your point about people not knowing Star Trek if they never really been exposed to it is definitely true. I think 30 or 40 years ago, people could at least make a distinction between TOS and TNG because that’s all that was at the time and TNG was really everywhere after third season. They still may not know anything about the shows, but they certainly knew they existed.

Now, it’s very different because it’s been on so long and there are so many shows now, for most complete newbies they can’t tell you the remote difference from any of them today, again, UNLESS they been exposed to it on a real level. But if they haven’t, it’s all Klingon to them at this point. I will say TOS is certainly considered the most iconic, but that doesn’t mean everyone even knows what TOS is either, certainly in most parts of the world where Trek has never been popular.

I’ve gone through this thing myself, but it’s with Dr. Who. That show has been on as long as Trek has. It has the same loyal and nerdy following. It hasn’t made any real spin offs like Trek but because there is always a different Doctor, it sounds like the show gets constant reboots. It has more episodes than Star Trek does. They are basically equal at this point.

And I can tell you two things about the show. The main character is an alien named Dr. Who and he travels in a phone booth. That’s my entire breath of knowledge lol. I can’t tell you a single other character on that show. I couldn’t pick out one actor from it eitehr outside of one of them because they were part of the MCU. That’s how I found out they were part of Dr. Who. ;) I couldn’t tell you how many shows there are, if they had any movies, nothing. And I like sci fi lol, Dr. Who just never appealed to me personally. But if you don’t like or watch sci fi at all, then yeah you’re much more in the dark with these franchises.

And you say you never watched Trek until you were 18. I never even heard of Dr. Who until I was 17 lol.

And that’s considered just as much of an iconic show if not more so than Star Trek in a lot of places (certainly the U.K. ;)). But ‘iconic’ is very relative depending on who you ask and where you live. ;)

Actually now that you mention it I do remember that Khan was only supposed to be a mini series and I remember Meyer showing up on Star Trek day to talk about the podcast thing. No one seemed like they were that interested in it though so not a big shock it didn’t happen.

And people are sick to death of more prequels. I don’t care about the podcast story either but may listen if others like it I guess. For me Kahn died long ago so it’s all a big shrug.

And I’m pretty clueless on Dr. Who as well! 😂 I actually seen a few episodes when the new show started up in 2005 but it just wasn’t my thing personally although my uncle actually became a big fan of it and watched it regularly. Not sure if he’s been watching it lately. That show has been getting a lot of backlash like Star Trek lately too and I remember him complaining about the last few seasons.

I think Star Trek and Dr. Who has the same problem with new people and they stay away from it because it sounds too sci fi and nerdy. But also like you said there is way too much of it today and most people have no idea where to start and trying to understand all the characters and backstory to the whole thing probably feels too overwhelming so they never try.

When I talk to people online who wants to at least try it I always tell them to start with TNG since it doesn’t feel or look as outdated as TOS and of course it’s still very popular. I would probably tell others SNW is a good place to start now too since it feels a lot like TNG and TOS but updated…and there isn’t 178 episodes. 😂

But that is the one positive about the franchise, once you give it a real chance and you like one show it usually does get you interested in the entire franchise. Even when I started with Voyager I just thought I would watch that show only and when it was over, that would be it for me. I had no interest to even watch the other shows or movies.

Twenty five years later I’m still watching! 😉😎

End of the day, Star Trek is still more of a middle tier franchise, that’s just the reality. I know some fans don’t want to hear that but it’s the truth. The show has been around for 57 years now, but if you go up to a teenager today and ask them if they watch it, most will probably never seen it or could tell you much about it. But if you ask them about Star Wars, MCU, Transformers or Harry Potter, I’m guessing over half of them will have seen all of these and can tell you plenty. Even older adults will probably be able to tell you way more about those other franchises than anything about Star Trek if they don’t personally watch any of them because A. it’s just a lot more exposure of those in popular culture and B. they probably just have kids who are into those brands a lot more too. Of course Star Trek is very mainstream, but it’s never been super popular with the masses either. I will say the time it hit biggest in popularity was obviously the early 90s which I feel is when Star Trek was at its peak. I still think that was when it was super popular because it was everywhere at that time. It had a lot to do with TNG’s rising popularity but the franchise as a whole was at it’s peak. TOS was officially ending but more people were watching that in reruns than ever probably since it first entered syndication. People who started with TNG were now watching TOS too, including several of my friends. You couldn’t get away from Star Trek then, merchandise was everywhere, there used to be entire Star Trek merchandise sections in toy or department stores. It was constantly on the news. TV guides biggest sellers was when a Star Trek actor appeared on he cover. I LOVED those lol. Every time a new show like DS9 and VOY came around brought tons of headlines in the mainstream news. When Kirk and Picard were on the cover of Time Magazine before Generations came out, you know you arrived lol. It was a fun time to be a fan back then. But since then it has regressed a lot. I will say when the first Kelvin movie came out, that was the second time it landed big on the popular culture radar. But I still don’t think it made the franchise itself more popular though, not like the 90s. Yes more people were exposed to Star Trek because like TNG back then, a lot of people saw that movie who had never seen Star Trek before and average people were talking about it again. But it never really took off beyond just more people watching those movies specifically. I don’t think it got many more into watching TNG or TOS or their movies. But to be fair, it’s a reboot, it wasn’t designed to be part of the old shows. But the movies never became anything more than a fun summer movie and not turn them into bigger fans. That was obvious because even when STID and Beyond came out, there was practically no merchandise for it. The movies didn’t raise all tides the way the shows did in the 90s. And we saw by the time Beyond came, it feel back to mostly the geek circles mostly caring. As far as the new shows (getting back to the topic lol), again I think they have attracted SOME new people but I’m guessing there are tons of people out there that doesn’t even know these Trek shows even exist now. If you’re not in the bubble or own P+, they don’t exist in the real world at all, not like the classic shows did. Again NO merchandise to speak of in any stores. I’ve never seen someone wearing a DIS cap or T-shirt on the street, ever. I have not seen any of these shows in the news except when Patrick Stewart announced he was coming back for Picard. You do get stuff like Comic Con at least, but again that’s for the nerds and all of them know about Star Trek regardless. But for the masses and regular people, there is just no real buzz. Sure for US there are plenty of buzz (ready for the musical soon ;)), especially since Picard season 3 aired this year. But if you’re not already in the bubble or been a fan at least since the 90s, it’s very easy to ignore these shows altogether. because unless you have a friend or coworker saying they should give DIS or LDS a chance, I doubt most know anything about them. But to end this on a more positive and uplifting note, I agree… Read more »

And you might be right that the Legacy show would simply be too costly to do. They probably cancelled Discovery because it was just getting too expensive for them and not enough people watching.

We been hearing how all these services are trying to cut down the spending (Disney spent over $200 million on six episodes of Secret Invasion and it looked like a FOX show and it was awful) so I can see that as being the sole reason. But even if it cost more than the Academy show that would still be more worth it in the end because that has a built in audience and would be just as big as Picard in its first season. You bring in a few more legacy characters you probably have one of the biggest Trek shows around.

But Paramount is probably pinching pennies these days, especially when they’re biggest movies this summer like Transformers and Mission Impossible are under performing.

What it needs is another JJ verse movie! I’m almost positive that could maybe break $300 million today. 😂😂😂

Of course they can’t afford to make any of those either.

Trek has always been first and best on TV and this generation is no different. Trek on TV is not dead. Both Picard and SNW hit the top 10 streaming lists. Conversely Kelvin movies cost MCU level of money to make but don’t even get a 3rd of the returns. In the movies is where Trek is dead at the moment, not TV

Picard S3 is going to age terribly. Once people get over all the nostalgia and fan service, they’ll realise there’s very little left except for a paper thin plot and an utterly ridiculous and over the top finale.

I love Enterprise more than most. But they did have some bad episodes like all the shows. And for sure, THESE AREN THE VOYAGES was one of the worst ones. If not the absolute worst of the series.


In other words, not dead at all. :-)

Frakes’ love for STAR TREK is wonderful. I hope he continues to get opportunities to work on both sides of the camera in this universe. I worry about Paramount’s financial health affecting any future projects though. And with the union strikes going with no end in sight, that will do further damage to streaming subscriptions/revenue.

I agree with Frakes that “These Are The Voyages” was a good episode, but a bad choice for the series finale. It would have been fine if Enterprise was going to get a 5th season.

At that point, Enterprise was already so bad that that ep seemed like a positive breather from all the crap eps of that series. I’m fine with it, and the series absolutely needed to end at that point…stick a fork it it.

Good or bad, love it or hate it, the ratings speak for themselves. That show literally replaced with a Britney Spears reality show which itself got cancelled in 2 seconds flat. UPN as a whole was always doomed and the only show to really survive was Next Top Model

Yeah, because even within each and every season, the # fans watching dropped every week. You can’t blame network dynamics on that. The fans stopped watching, and stopped making the attempt to watch it, because it just wasn’t very good Star Trek.

You see fans dropped the show continually ever year, and within every year, fans dropped the series week-to-week. And at the time, I remember many fan friends of mine, over time, giving up on Enterprise and just not wanting to watch it anymore.

It was a failure. No excuses.

Now perhaps today, in retrospect, and with sentimentality thrown in, people like it more, so it’s less of a failure now…OK, I can buy into that some. But it definitely was a total failure back in the day — that’s a fact — it deserved to be cancelled, period.

I agree it in of itself was a failure. but while viewership dropped year after year, the seasons of the show itself got better. If we got a season 5 we would have had the Romulan war. Also, the network itself was a HUGE issue. Before the CW was formed UPN was not in nearly as many markets as the previous Trek shows in syndication would be able to hit. Heck Voyager only survived because #1 thats all UPN had at the time and #2 Jeri Ryan.

I need to give it another watch. I actually liked S2 the best, but it’s been 12 years since I watched it last, so perhaps now I might appreciate the Manny Coto seasons more? And I have the BR set that I got on-sale a few years back.

I have to admit, I liked the idea of the Temporal Cold War, just not always how they went about it. Also, it’s been decades, someone can finally tell us who future guy is!

Did you realize that the only reason the Temporal Cold War concept was included was because UPN demanded some sort of future element on the show? Braga & Berman had no intent and didn’t want to do it. When the demand was placed Braga used an idea for another show he had and tweaked it to fit the Enterprise show. But neither were really happy with the concept. Probably why there weren’t a lot of episodes that dealt with it.

If they waited a few years as Berman suggested and probably put Enterprise on when people were missing Star Trek again, the show would’ve been fine. Maybe not amazing in terms of ratings but better. Fatigue was a thing at the time. I know, because I stopped watching and I watched every show when they came on for 14 years. By that point, it was like ‘more???’. But yes Enterprise had problems obviously and a reason why others stopped watching. But no more than most shows did, both old and DEFINITELY the newer ones.

CW never was profitable either. It is why the Arrowverse has been put out of its misery. And Superman and Lois will probably be cancelled after one more season, which is much reduced in budget.

TATV was an absolute disgrace especially when compared to how great Demons/Terra Prime was.

I agree though it would’ve been fine if it was a fun one off episode but they still killed Trip which was a huge mistake. 🙄

That’s probably one of Trek s finales for me.

Yeah, Trip’s death seemed rather pointless and unnecessary.

Yeah totally unnecessary. Braga said he would bring him back in another season or movie. But too little too late.

Yeah, that was literally Brannon Braga just doing it because he said he felt like it. Not sorry he is gone from the franchise after that. He killed Kirk and Trip both in the worst ways possible.


It was a bad decision. What did Trip sacrifice himself for? So Archer can get to a speech in time?

Trip’s death seemed rather pointless and unnecessary.

I should point out that it was a holo-novel. Every bit of historical fiction, even the sainted OPPENHEIMER, takes some liberties with the truth. (No, Oppy didn’t meet Niels Bohr by saving him from eating a poisoned apple.)

Sure, but I don’t think Oppenheimer killed off any historical figures who actually lived for decades after the events of the film.

Luckily Trip technically only died in a holodeck recreation. It would be so easy to bring him back and not defy canon.

Yeah I can buy that for sure and Riker was just being an idiot with the holodeck. Silly Riker.

They couldn’t have killed Trip if they had a 5th season. And certainly wouldn’t have.

That’s true. Braga confirmed it himself a few times. They knew the show was over and wanted to go out with a more somber tone. I still think it was dumb, especially knowing Star Trek and shows has a way of coming back.

The problem with Frake’s comments it that it is based on a false assumption — that the high ratings from the TNG cast reunion season of Picard will directly translate to a Legacy series that does not bring back that cast in a fan service extravaganza like S3 of Picard was.

There is no reason to assume that a Jack+Seven-based series gets very high ratings simply because the full TNG cast reunion, one-off spectacle we just all viewed got those ratings.

Apples and oranges.

And without the fan service and sentimentality to fall back on, the limitations of Matalas’s storytelling, including his penchant for action-adventure space opera, I don’t think will work for a multi-year series…or will end up getting the same fan hate that DSC got.

My mistake man, responded to the wrong post! 🙂

No worries, I accidentally did that with Tiger2 last week myself.

LOL believe me I remember

Yeah, he roasted me good on that one — and I deserved it. LOL


The Pegasus is one of my favorite episodes of TNG, and it always sits weird with me that they tried to shoehorn the Enterprise finale into that. It doesn’t really fit the story, and certainly the actors ages don’t fit either.

I think if you were going to These Are The Voyages right, it would have to been 1) not the series finale of Enterprise but just a one-off episode in the middle of the season and 2) have the framing story be Troi and Riker on the Titan instead of during TNG.

It is interesting that when watching The Center Chair documentary series, Manny Coto states that Braga and Berman wrote the episode and produced the episode to show he was not involved. He obviously didn’t agree with it.

I’ve actually thought that the framing might have been better placed during “Chain of Command II,” when Jellico relieved Riker of duty, and the latter had to decide whether to pilot the shuttlecraft that was mining the Cardassian ships.

Great news for me…there are 10 episodes left of Discovery! 😉

Bad news for me…there are still 10 episodes left of Discovery. 🤮

I tease people…I tease. I’m not holding my breath this season isn’t going to be less horrible than tha last four seasons but I’m crossing my fingers. I’m just ready to move on from this show personally.

Had it not been for the pandemic delays, it’s likely the fifth season would have streamed last year, and we’d be moving on the sixth. This cast deserved a true final season; Paramount should have been decent enough to at least give them three extra episodes, so that they could have a “final adventure” that had nothing to do with the already written/filmed/produced fifth season.

I actually don’t disagree too much but end of the day it comes down to views and money. I mean at least Discovery got 5 seasons and reshot the finale to feel like an ending. Look what they did to Prodigy. That’s a total disgrace and they are selling off a show with it’s second season already done.

Any show they could’ve better treated was that one. But it all comes down to money and not loyalty end of the day. If that was the case we would probably be on the fifth JJ verse movie now too. But one movie bombed and they spent 7 years trolling the fans over it instead.

They pretend to love Trek and it’s fans but they only care when enough of us do. When that stop being the case and enough stop watching they wash their hands and just move on.

What they did to Prodigy was ridiculous They have so many more shows that aren’t famous franchises they could have cancelled. Like can we just cancel reality TV for once?

That’s what really hurts, because Prodigy is a tiny show at the end of the day, they weren’t paying for it like Discovery and they are both part of the same franchise that Paramount+ keep pointing out as being the ONLY place to watch it all. Not anymore assholes.

It’s just a major blow. Again, I accept its cancellation. Not happy about it, but if its not hitting even their minimum viewership and it probably wasn’t, then it should be cancelled. But selling it off is another thing entirely; although I have heard people say that could be a positive if whoever ends up buying it gives it more seasons. If that’s the case I won’t complain as much but I have low expectations of that happening.

Oh and I finally went and looked at the Hageman brothers resume and these guys are heavy hitters in the animation world. I had no idea they made that many animated movies on top of shows and most have been very strong both critically and box office. In fact, they turned two of their other shows into movies.

So I can see why they wanted them to do this project, not only did they have a strong track record, they gone on to make their projects into bigger franchises. And now they were making a show that was already part of a big franchise. They probably had a bigger plan in mine to make this show a success and then turn it into a movie series because they don’t have to spend $200 million for their animated movies. ;)

So I think as sad as it is, the show must have been basically DOA by the time it started because they had no problems getting at least two seasons or more for their other shows.

Yep. I’ve been a long time LEGO Ninjago watcher. LEGO Ninjago movie didn’t do too well at the box office but it was a very decent movie. They were a major part of why it even got more seasons to begin with, it was only supposed to have two but people loved it and demanded more and got more.

Yeah I saw the original LEGO movie, I had no idea they were involved in any of those. And wouldn’t it be cool Star Trek got a LEGO movie or TV special?? Star Wars has some really fun LEGO specials on Disney+. Sadly I don’t think our franchise is big enough to get stuff like that

Star Trek actually could get one. The LEGO’s newest show, dreamzzz, actually had a few Trek and Trek parody references in the first season. There was a helmet that makes the chirping noise of combadges for example. It’s just if they’ll go to LEGO and work with them to make it.

It’s just that Paramount needs to go to LEGO and say hey we want to do a LEGO Trek special can we work together on it.

Unless I’m mistaken, the Trek license has been with a direct competitor of LEGO (called BlueBrixx) for quite some time. So probably no LEGO movie unless they change that.

I know. I have my issues with where the Trek license is but that’s a conversation for another time. This conversation was me saying that that is what Paramount would have to do if they wanted one.

I’m not holding out hopes for the season but maybe the re vamped finale

No one seems very excited about next season even after hearing after it’s been cancelled. I’ll watch it and hope for some Picard season 3 turnaround (and I liked Discovery season 4 more than I liked Picard season 2, so that should tell you how much I was in the dumps about Picard). But I’m still not very encouraged. It looks and feel like same ole…bad.

Yeah and I am one of those that has practically no hope. But in the back of my mind I keep hoping the finale will like go back in time or something and erase the monstrosity that is what they think of the 30th century.

But didn’t they go forward in time to erase all the monstrosity they did in the 23rd century? 😂🙄

I think the finale maybe they will jump to the 40th century so they can screw that century up and turn everyone into cryers there too!

I’ll meet you halfway on this. If they can have an ep where the whole lower decks series is shown to just a dream a live action character is having, then I will accept an episode which erases the whole 30th century thing.

Picard season three was the best season of Trek ever!

I still wouldn’t go that far personally. For me Prodigy first season was the best actually. But yeah in terms of it’s nostalgia moments, real drama and stakes and a return to stronger dialogue and writing again, I think Picard S3 is a big contender even with its flaws. It felt like it had both gravitas and real adults were back in charge again, something missing from all the other shows IMO and that obviously includes Prodigy. ;)

I’m liking SNW season 2, but it’s a huge step down in the dialogue and story department save for 2 or 3 episodes so far this season. With Picard, I loved 8 out of the 10 episodes, about the same I loved for season one of SNW.


That season could not hold any season of DS9’s jock strap, let alone any season of TOS.

You think S1 of Picard is the more truer Trek XD

Yes, and I will repeat why Picard S1 is truer to TNG than S3:

It was science fiction and had thoughtful problem solving — that’s what TNG always did. S3 was space-opera, action adventure — more like Star Wars with space zombies — it was very un-TNG like.

It is what is is — and I’m not saying that this means that S3 wasn’t much more popular than S1, because it obviously was. But S1 was much more like TNG that we all know and love than S3 was. You are kidding yourself if you disagree.

See this above — this is my explanation for why I think this.

Now you go ahead and come back and give me a really clever once sentence putdown, because those little asinine, juvenile quips are all you got.

Wow I seem to be agreeing with you a lot on this particular article. Nothing has ever been done that can beat City on the Edge of Forever or Best of Both Worlds.

Yeah, well said. You and I agree on a lot of stuff. It just so happens that I can admittedly be somewhat dickish on stuff I disagree on with people, so disagreeing with me is probably more memorable for you. LOL

LOL all good!

DS9 FTW. My formative teenage years were spent watching TNG. TNG was my first sci fi TV love, and ever shall be. And still, DS9 is a better show. It just is. No Trek has matched its highs or its consistency. Even the “shaky” first couple season were better than, say, 30% of TNG, 67% of Voyager, and 88% of SNW.

That said, I’m still young enough that half of TOS is virtually unwatchable. Sure, there’s the occasional Balance of Terror, but otherwise… damn.

DS9 FTW. My formative teenage years were spent watching TNG. TNG was my first sci fi TV love, and ever shall be. And still, DS9 is a better show. It just is

Agree 100%

I will say it’s the best NuTrek season so far. 😎

The reason S3 was good for me at least was because it was pure nostalgia for TNG. It’s hard to say it was better than TNG when it is based on bringing back TNG

I can listen to Frakes talk Star Trek all day long!

And I think most people will agree, it’s better for Frakes to direct the finale of a cancelled show than to star in one via holodeck. Obviously he agrees too. ;)

I do feel a little bad for Discovery that it sounds like they wanted to really advertise and promote the last season and I read the original kick off to that was suppose to be at comic con. But with the Hollywood strikes going on full force right now they may not be able to do much of that now.

And I fully agree with Frakes on the Legacy show .And if people are interested Terry Matalas was on the Shuttle Pod podcast this past weekend for a nearly 2 hour interview and it was great. It’s on YouTube. He added a few extra bits about working on season 3 and of course is very interested in doing the Legacy show. And looking at all the comments from that interview, that seems what most fans want as well.

Honestly, I think it’s really just a matter of when and not if at this point. People want to be back in that era again. The fanfare over it has made that very clear. They want to see those characters and I don’t mean just the TNG characters obviously. SNW is great and people seem to generally like the animated shows too (yeah, Prodigy, I know) but in terms of the fanbase, it really feels like it wants more post-Nemesis live action shows and not the 32nd century, something a bit closer to home and more relevant to the universe. ;) Picard season 3 is really want most fans wanted season 1 and 2 to be. And now that they got a real taste of it, most seem to want more.

We really don’t know where the future of Trek is at the moment with all the insanity over the strikes and Paramount not being in the strongest place these days. Basically SNW and LDS are really the only continuing shows on right now and who knows long they will go? Yes there is the Academy show but until that really gets up and running, who knows? But my guess is the Legacy would be the next show after that if the Academy does still come around. We’ll get more 25th century adventures one way or the other!

Especially if Legacy can find a way to have some episodic stories with serialized character development. That may be the ticket to bringing back a lot of fans. As much as I love serialized storytelling it didn’t work so great for seasons 1&2 of Picard. Also most fans don’t seem to prefer it and it’s still ultimately a business.

Yeah I hope as well. I thought season 3 mostly handled their story fairly well and stuck to landing, but there were still episodes that just felt like they were spinning their wheels and had some plot holes. I think SNW works better just being more episodic. The Legacy show doesn’t have to be that either but I think they can add standalone stories here and there. At least not where every episode is tied to everything else. Enterprise did it the best in season 4 IMO.

The way I see Paramount seems to want to have only one live action show and one animated Trek show on at the moment, disregarding the standalone movies. So if any new live action show comes out in the near future I feel like they’d wait for SNW to end one way or another. They want to consolidate their resources and not concentrate on too many things at one time when it comes to Trek. So I don’t actually see the Academy and Legacy shows existing at the same time. What they can do is change the Academy show to have elements of the Legacy show or incorporate elements from both shows to create a single show.

Yeah this could be true, but it’s kind of sad it went from being committed to having 5 shows on a year to now just keep two shows on, one live action and one animated. I know this is just your opinion and you know how much I like and respect you but I really hope you’re wrong. ;)

But I probably will concede if a Legacy show happens, it will probably be after SNW ends or if the Academy show is dropped.

I do agree it would be less moaning at least if they moved the Academy show to the 25th century and so we can have Worf be the most intimidating Academy teacher ever, but I suspect they want ‘the Burn’ angle for the show. I think that’s a big reason why it even exists. You move it to the 23rd or 24th century, then its just another school drama or Harry Potter in space some of the bigger haters like calling it lol.

Agreed and I hope I am wrong too but my observations about the whole streaming situation and the strikes in Hollywood makes me think that many streaming services will or need to cull or minimize their products or streamline them in the long run.

I feel you’re right as well. I’m just personally hoping if that’s the case then just ditch the teen Academy show no one is begging to watch and replace it with the Legacy show since that’s clearly what a lot of fans want.

I think it’s time for a Star Trek that not only takes place post nemesis, but also gets back to it’s science fiction roots. A show for the audience who craves hard hitting science fiction and exploring new worlds.
We have enough Star Trek for the young audience. We’ll soon have a second teen series, SFA. SNW and SFA should be enough for that audience. I’m sure they will both be fantastic at pulling in kids who love rom-coms, musicals, and that sort of thing.

Given they do multiple Trek show for multiple fan submarkets now, I like your idea of a new series that takes the approach of a harder sf treatment of Stark Trek. I’d be all for that.

Agreed, leave the cringy crap with the prequels and give the fans proper Trek post-Picard.

Agreed as well. That’s why I loved Picard season 3 it felt like adults and drama again in a real science fiction environment and pushing the universe forward.

I like the lighter and fun shows like SNW and LDS and why I love the crossover so much. But I want more grown up Trek again like we got with Picard.

Although I didn’t like the episode at all the last SNW episode with M’Benga PTSD felt like a real adult show for a change. But that show is probably better to stay lighter and have Pike cracking dad jokes, cooking in his apron and doing musicals. I don’t know if it works as a dark or ultra serious show IMO. The Gorn stuff is fine though.

Yes, last week’s episode actually did seem geared towards adults, which was refreshing. And as to Pike being reduced to mainly comic and/or background relief this season so far (I did like his show of rage in “Lotus Eaters”, also refreshing), I’m pretty disappointed.

It was refreshing I just don’t know if it will just be the exception and not the rule. With Picard it has felt like the adult show, but just a pretty bad one. But season 3 I liked how the characters all had real authority but they can still crack jokes too. So it wasn’t just people angry or depressed either, you saw all their personalities shine! And it was never turned into melodrama like Discovery is every season. 🙄

I don’t mind SNW being a lighter show but it would be nice to have Pike be a little more stern and not just everyone’s cool uncle all the time. It’s a big reason why I didn’t like the last episode because they made him look too naive and weak. He just kind of shruggs at what his officers are going through and how someone ended up dead over it. And then he just kind of shrugged at that too.

This should’ve been the episode we saw some real passion in this guy and s real fire in his belly like we see with Picard, Kirk, Sisko, Archer or Janeway whenever they were confronted with stuff like this.

Yes, totally agree with you. Harden up the content, get actual sci-fi writers involved, and make it all post-NEM going forward. And no on-screen weeping please, unless its well-deserved.

I like the way you think man! 🙂👍

Strange New Worlds has been greenlit for a third season, and Lower Decks a fifth season. The Starfleet Academy series and the Section 31film have also been confirmed. There is no reason we can’t have a Picard-sequel set in the early 25th century.

I think Matalas did a wonderful job with the third season of Picard, but if a sequel series does move forward, I would prefer it not be called Legacy. I don’t hate the name “Star Trek: Legacy,” but that does not suggest moving forward. Give me the Enterprise-G, give me Captain Seven, Commander Raffi, Jack Crusher, and Sidney La Forge. But give me stories with the other new characters who survived the finale, give me new stories that involve new characters. Give it a FRESH name.

To me, Star Trek: Legacy sounds like it should a series of 90-minute one-off stories featuring legacy characters from every past iteration of Trek.

I don’t agree, “Star Trek: Legacy” is a name 100% about the future – what kind of legacy has been left by the 21 years of TNG-era, 4 years of ENT-era, and maybe even 3 years of PIC.

And as for “a series of 90-minute one-off stories featuring legacy character from every past iteration of Trek” sounds about like a perfect Trek formula to me!

That is simple not true…from the dictionary:

The long-lasting impact of particular events, actions, etc. that took place in the past

What are you even taking about? The key element of that definition is “long-lasting impact”. How is that not something concerned with ‘what will happen next’?

You’re the one who said it’s 100 freaking percent about the future, not me. When you say that then you’re also saying it’s 0% about the past — that is how percentages work.

Mean what you say, say what you mean. And then please don’t blame me because I just read exactly what you wrote — and you clearly said 100% about the future, which means 0% about the past.

You’re the one who said it’s 100 freaking percent about the future, not me. When you say that you’re saying it’s 0% about the past

Mean what you say, say what you mean. And then please don’t blame me because I just read exactly what you wrote — and you clearly said 100% about the future, which means 0% about the past.

..sorry for the repeated post.

What is O’Brien up to? Well we could have a fun little O’Brien/Bashir adventure and maybe involve Garak. 90 minutes, check, one and done. Maybe there could be an “engineering problem” Starfleet has to solve and we get together all the legacy engineers that are still alive/around. Or we could see one last adventure with Takei or even Shatner. We could go back and see Beverly and Jack Crusher before the events of PIC S3. Perhaps a pre-PIC adventure featuring Raffi and Rios. Short Treks was the perfect vehicle for one-off storytelling that could have been expanded into a longer format. That was a sorely missed opportunity, and hopefully the S31 film is the first step in correcting that. These are the things I think about when I think Legacy.

I loved PIC S3, and I want the continuing adventures of Captain Seven (fingers crossed though it would return to a mostly episodic format like SNW), but if that show happens give it something new, give me stories about the Titan crew that did actually survive the PIC finale. Give me new characters, show me the geopolitical landscape of 2504. Give me new scientific adventures.

One thing about Bashir and s31 that has always stuck with me is to see if there was a reason behind the reason for recruiting/exploiting him, like The Village wanting #6 to ultimately become their man in THE PRISONER. A great way to open up an s31 movie would be to have a bedraggled O’Brien hauled into some s31 haunt and see that Bashir is ‘running’ it.

Totally agree bro! 👍

And you’re right we got many of the centuries covered now: SNW/23rd century; LDS/24th century: SFA/32nd century. So we need a show to continue in the 25th century. That’s ‘present day’ Trek for me.

And would be fine with a name change too.

These are the Voyages was a bad episode PEROID .
The only thing good was the last 3 minutes .
The only thing to remove the bitterness of it ,is the realization that it was not the true History of the Enterprise NX-01 last voyage .
Riker on the D was using a Holo Novel based on the historyof the ship , to work out his issues .
Like the episode, The Royal ,it takes bits of history and changes the narrative to reach a dramatic conclusion .

Jake and Rose didn’t ride the Titanic and Trip did not die on the Enterprise .
As a matter of fact , He is living off the grid with T’pol on Vulcan
One day we will see what really happened .
Thats my story an I’m sticking to it .
Till then lets hope they decide to bring back Enterprise as a limited series The Romulan War ,year 1

Regarding the desires for a show with 7 and the others… I’m reminded of the great Spock line from Amok Time.

After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.”

Yeah but you can say that with everything though. That’s how so many of us felt after the first two seasons of Picard. For me Seven was one of the best things about those seasons. It’s still not saying much (and she was stuck with Hot Mess Raffi in season 2 which made it worse) but still fun to watch.

But I love Seven. I’m pretty convinced I only became a Star Trek fan thanks to her.

Well, her appearance on Voyager was a boost. And I found that her arc improved the show. Don’t feel the same about her on Picard, however. Any of the seasons.

Not exactly surprised bro! 😂

And people used to call me a Kurtzman hater.

You don’t like anything, so for you it is always true.

Incorrect. There is quite a bit of Trek I like. TOS. A number of TNG episodes. DS9. VOY was well done overall and I liked Enterprise from the start. 6 of the 10 TOS & TNG films were good. As was 2 of the 3 KU films.

So please… Next time you post something think it over before showing yourself to be amazingly ignorant.

Your constant negativity about Trek is public record. You are also often very rude when people point that out to you.

Once again you posted something ignorant without thinking it through. You are wrong. I just proved to you all the Trek I like.

2nd: You are obviously confusing me with some of the other regulars who can be stunningly rude. I’ve never once called anyone out for disagreeing with me.

Please think before you respond to me again.

Your constant negativity about Trek is public record. You are also often very rude when people point that out to you.

How about: your constant negativity about nuTrek is public record. The rude part is definitely being proven.

That dude loves to dish it out, but then fawns this fake-ass moral high ground BS when you push back on him. The funny thing is, he has some really good posts and I agree with him frequently. It’s unfortunate that he feels the need to whine so much when he’s called out on his arrogant insults schtick.

I don’t “dish anything out” except opinions. You yourself are the self admitted jerk here. You are describing yourself. Certainly not me. And you know it. The only people who have claimed I have been “rude” were people who were just annoyed that I dared to offer up a different opinion. Hell, you’ve done it yourself.

Patton on Montgomery sums up my response to you:

Hell, I know I’m a prima donna — I admit it! What I can’t stand about Monty is he won’t admit it.

I guess I feel weird jumping in here since this sounds like a ‘family’ dispute lol.

But I don’t have any issues with what you say here at all man. In fact the first message I remember reading from you was putting down Lower Decks constantly and I love that show personally. But I still ended up agreeing with some of your points about it. They are just TV shows, it’s OK to like or hate something and to express it. If you’re insecure how strangers talk about fictional shows, that says more about you than them. Put your big boy pants on, it’s not that serious just because someone hates VOY or SNW (and I like them both).

And the hypocrisy here is unbelievable. I wish I can tell you how I really feel about some people here because they can’t handle negative opinions when it’s something they like but have no problem telling the rest of us why something they hate is worthless over and over and over again.

From what I can tell about you is you don’t do that. You’re definitely not overbearing and you don’t try to tell others what to say or how to say it either. You don’t try to control the boards or insult anyone when they something bad about a show you like. That’s toxic behavior I don’t tolerate. 🙄

But you just say why you hate about something. And you don’t get triggered over things either like I don’t and then writing it in every thread even when that’s not the topic.

I respect all of that. Sure it would be cool if you like shows like LDS and SNW more, but totally agree on your views on Discovery and a lot on Picard. We’re NEVER going to agree on Nemesis though lol. That’s just one of the most utterly bad stories in Trek history for me and to this day my most hated thing in all of Star Trek. But I digress and it’s cool you like it if course! So I’m not getting on your case about your opinion and some people who are criticizing you should actually learn from you how to give an opinion without chastising others over theirs.

It’s unbelievable some have the nerve to call you out with their ridiculous behavior.

Not sure who you are talking to with this response. I love SNW, Lower Decks, Prodigy, and Picard. Nor am I rude.

I wasn’t calling you rude. I was agreeing with you. And getting more technical so he couldn’t bury his head in the sand anymore.

Ah, I misread it. Thanks for the clarification.

The “bury his head in the sand” certainly seems aimed at Salt Vampire….

Where is it proven?

It doesn’t exist.

Calling people ignorant is sure being rude but okay I’m out.

No. It’s not. If that is your bar for “rudeness” heaven help you when you encounter actual rude people.

Calling people ignorant is sure being rude but okay I’m out.

For everyone except ML31. For him, FREE PASS, because he knows he’s a nice guy!


Seems you subscribe to the adage that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth.

How sad for you.

Your constant negativity about Trek is public record. You are also often very rude when people point that out to you.

Got any evidence of that?

Of course you don’t. Never let the facts get in the way of what you wish were true.

Your constant negativity about Trek is public record. You are also often very rude when people point that out to you.

I am a façade free zone — what you see is what you get — no spin BS and no pretending otherwise.

Just let the guy say what he has to say. Who cares if it’s to say he doesn’t like something. Personally I feel more motivated to express an opinion on something I don’t like. To each his own. The whiners are the ones complaining about people expressing negative opinions. Get over it.

But you and I admit we can be dicks…that dude believes his own press releases about what a great guy he is…lol

So what? Or maybe that’s just the way you see it. Honestly compared to other posters I’ve never seen ML be directly rude, despite what some here say. I find him quite tolerant to criticism in fact (more than me).

I rather live and let live than jump on the schoolyard bandwagon and pile on the guy… At some point you just realize that people have their own personality and accept it. Hey that’s why we’re buddies now! But there’s a line that can’t be crossed and things I will never accept… Some have crossed it and they can burn in hell of course…

Me and ML31 disagree ALL the time, but I’ve never found him rude or insulting; he’s just passionate and firm about his opinion. I think that’s fine and why I enjoy talking to him even if I want to put my head through a wall at times lol. He’s never called me a single name, accused me of being hateful and we fight ALL the time. Because we respect each others differences of opinion and leave it there like adults. It’s certainly gotten heated a few times here or there but we always move on…again like adults.

But if others are that bothered by it, then I’ll say it for the thousandth time, this is why we need an ignore button. It would make stuff like this go away where it doesn’t always get so personal. And as you know I been at the target of this a few times myself.

And shocking, everyone is negative here when its something they hate, everyone. I’ve read the same hundred posts from certain people why they think Lower Decks or Discovery or Picard or Kelvin movies or Enterprise or SNW or whatever someone thinks is a supposed plight on humanity sucks; and they never shut up about it either. Read this thread lol. So I don’t get the problem at all? We all do it, some just do it better than others. ;)

But if others are that bothered by it, then I’ll say it for the thousandth time, this is why we need an ignore button.

An ignore button is an excellent idea.

Yeah I’ve only been calling for one for 10 years now. Maybe if I mention it again, that will finally do the trick lol.


Also agree! ,👍

It’s a big reason I don’t type more here.

I’ve advocated for an “ignore button” in the past. I’ve also since abandoned the suggestion. Not because I no longer would like to see it. But because it doesn’t look like it will happen. Therefore my “ignore” button is to see the handle of the person I wish to ignore and then skip the post. Interestingly all but 1 I have done that to has been banned. And I don’t even endorse banning anyone. As horrid as those posters were I’d rather they still be here. Not a fan of the banishments.

At any rate, yes, everyone repeats their opinions quite often. I’m just as guilty of that as anyone else. And I’ve never ripped on anyone for doing it. In fact, I find it odd when people do. But if that’s what makes them happy they can knock themselves out. I still have the option to stop reading if I don’t feel like reading it again.

Yeah that’s certainly true lol. And I only mention it when flair ups like this happen. One of the reasons I like this board BECAUSE there is not a lot of moderation and people are free to say anything they want here. But same time there should be a little more moderation when people start personally attacking others. We’ve seen time and time again how that gets out of control like I feel is happening with you right now.

Like I said, we definitely have our arguments, but I actually enjoy talking to you the most even though we don’t agree on many things, especially with Kurtzman Trek lol. We actually agree on pretty much the classic shows with the exception of TNG, which I know you don’t hate, but at the bottom for you with the older stuff. And that’s obviously OK. It’s really the new shows we see differently on…because I mostly like them lol. But you’re mostly positive on the older shows and movies…minus TVH lol.

But it’s also why I like talking to you, I feel while you are a bit too negative at times, you always spend time pointing out why and give your points; that’s all anyone can ask for. I have never seen you attack anyone for disagreeing with you. And I have made my points clear why I’m not a huge fan of Picard and Discovery many MANY times lol. And as I said, everyone here commenting to you goes on and on and on and on and on about stuff they don’t like either, so I don’t get why they are drawing you out? It’s a bit ridiculous frankly.

I agree with you that Salt Vampire doesn’t have much of an argument about complaining about ML31’s negativity — yeah, too bad he doesn’t like that; sure, so what?

However, I don’t see what the big deal is on why Salt Vampire can’t call out Ml31 for being rude — he’s been rude to many here, as you and I have. And I have no issue when someone calls me out for being rude — you know what I do, I admit it. Why would I try to pretend I’m being 100% nice all the time? Who is that fooling?

And so what I find irritatingly humorous about the dude is that he acts so “I’m above the fray” and thinks he’s such a nice guy here. That’s BS, lol — my opinion. As Dirty Harry once said:

A man’s got to know his limitations.

Like I said, if that’s the way you see it, meaning you think he’s rude, then so be it. I have never to my recollection seen him being rude. Sorry. And I’m rude to those jerks who go with insults. That’s not being rude, it’s an eye for an eye. Frankly rude is not how I would describe you either…

On opinions, my man Harry said:

An opinion is like an a$$hole; everybody’s got one.

I will indeed admit it if I’ve crossed a line. I guess the only thing the line I see is a reasonable one. Many think merely the act of disagreeing is rude.

Also admitting when you’ve been a jerk doesn’t make it OK, either.

BTW, one of your comments to this dude recently was:

You are clearly an older individual, with a very passive-aggressive attitude towards the younger generation.

So that’s OK, but Salt Vampire can’t push back?

So you’re scrounging the bottom of the barrel just to call me out? This is certainly not a recent comment. I do remember having discussions with him years ago, but I have since moderated my reactions, as I have with you. With your last post though I may revise that. Not cool.

And Salt was complaining about ML posting a negative opinion. Maybe I said that to ML for different reasons? Besides from what I can tell we’re probably very close in age…

You better hope they don’t implement an ignore button, you won’t get replies from anyone. People will be too busy trying to pull out the knives out of their backs.

My point was that you got into it with him before as well, that’s all, so why deny Salt Vampire his strong response?

But yeah, as I mentioned, it was not the negative thing that bothered me either, but I think he was fine to call him out for being rude without you and others making a federal case about it.

Salt called him out because he was negative, and that’s my point. I’ll be plenty negative when posting on DSC and you on LDS. That’s fine. Who makes the rule that you have to post only on positive stuff? I’m not following that rule.

Everyone here is negative at times, so I don’t really get it? I haven’t been very negative on this thread for example, but others I been plenty. So what? We’re here to express our feelings about a TV show, good and bad. I have never once, ever, told someone they shouldn’t talk bad over something I like just like I would never listen to anyone who tries to tell me the same. We had a guy like that here recently and he’s gone for a reason.

Message boards are here to openly express your opinion, if you can’t let others do that, then that’s more your problem than theirs. And I really like Salt Vampire as well. We get along great but you just have to let people say what’s on their mind or just keep scrolling.

Exactly. Different people have different things to say in their own way. We’re here to talk about stuff in an adult respectful and tolerant way, and Tiger2 that’s always the way you write your posts so kudos to you.

Well that other guy didn’t get the boot because he was fighting with everyone but also for being a d.i.c.k about it!

If you want to tell me why Discovery isn’t a soulless show with bad stories, whiney characters and ridiculous subplots, sure I’ll listen and maybe agree I’m being too harsh. But don’t call me names or threaten to ‘report’ me because you can’t handle that opinion either.

And it isn’t your job to ‘police’ the boards either. So if you want to feel offended over everything when no one is even talking to you, then you shouldn’t be here.

3 dots, is that Morse code? I’m old but not that old…


I’d still like a 4th Kelvin film with Chris Pine. I thoroughly enjoyed him in Dungeons and Dragons. But we can’t always get what we want. I mean i also want Man of Steel 2 with Henry Cavill, and a Luke Skywalker tv series on Disney plus. Not gonna happen.

I dearly love Star trek, if i didn’t i wouldn’t have collected all 9 feature films on Laserdisc, and bought season 2 of TOS on Laserdisc. All from Japan. Bought all the 4K discs. I gave the TOS HD DVD i have to a friend. I absolutely loved Picard season 3 and i can’t wait for the Blu-Ray.

I was never insulted by that Enterprise episode – but it didn’t work particularly well.

The Pegasus framing was clunky (why that episode?) — and it clearly looked like time had passed for our TNG crew (Pegasus was filmed in 1993 and Voyages was filmed in 2005).

The idea was kind of cute, but not for a series finale.

Have just been returning to S3 via the score – which is mostly a cool and inspired take on familiar sounds and themes. It has a grandeur that I somehow missed while diving into the visuals. Indeed, S3 was a cool experience and it would be great to see more. It gets even better at the second watch. Other than S2 which now really seems awful (to me). S1 – better than I remembered it, some fine ideas and acting in it.

They could (not saying they will, not in a million years) bring back Enterprise as an animated show and we can get those last three seasons. Maybe Manny left notes for season five. Bring back Trip, along the fake death-secret spy plot line of the novels. Oh, it would be glorious if it happened and was done passably well. Quasi-related subject: any Legacy show needs DS9 cameos, that was a sad omission in Picard, and no, Worf does not count. What would be neat (and this is finally the connecting thought) is to have Jolene Blalock guest on Legacy as T’Pol’s daughter (from Trip? alive or from cells?). It would be a way to kinda bring back an Enterprise character without time travel, holodeck simulations, or chilling in a transport buffer for 200 years. Please, discuss vigorously.

Turnabout Intruder is still the worst series finale in Star Trek history, not These are the Voyages. Women can’t be Starship Captains. Women act with hysteria. That is misogyny writ large.The only thing i’m fond of is Shatner’s overacting as Lester. His Mutiny Speech.

I think the reason why Picard Season 3 was so favorably received was that it was so reminiscent of past-Trek, something a large segment of the audience has been missing for many years. To have a Trek where people actually act like Starfleet officers, talk to each other instead of simply emoting, crying, or screaming all the time, and have stories where the problems are solved by teams of people who respect each other and work together is a stark contrast to Discovery or any of the recent movies.
Yes, the “fan-service” and having an actual reunion of the characters certainly helped (particularly after how badly other franchises had squandered those opportunities in recent years) but that was all secondary to the fact that the way the characters related to each other was finally familiar to these fans.
The script, dialog, and story was no better or worse than other recent Trek, what really made it work was ultimately its heart.