Confirmed: First Draft Of Star Trek 2016 Script Complete | TrekMovie.com
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Confirmed: First Draft Of Star Trek 2016 Script Complete August 12, 2014

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman,ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

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The next Star Trek movie (and thirteenth in the franchise) has passed a big milestone. A month ago we reported that Roberto Orci and co-writers  Patrick McKay and JD Payne were "in the middle" of scripting the movie. Now, Orci exclusively tells TrekMovie the first draft has been completed.

First Draft Complete On Star Trek Into Darkness Sequel

As is his custom, Star Trek 2016 co-writer (and expected director) Roberto Orci dropped by the TrekMovie comments section to interact with the community in the last couple of days, making comments in the article about how he and Alex Kurtzman will be producing some monster movies for Universal. On Saturday morning, Orci gave an update on progress for the Star Trek project, noting with the following comment:

boborci:
p & m & I wrote, "fade out" yesterday on first draft. things are moving.

The ‘p & m’ bob is referring to is [JD] Payne and [Patrick] McKay, Orci’s co-writers on the next Star Trek movie. TrekMovie has confirmed with Orci that he is referring to the first draft of the Star Trek script. Orci tells TrekMovie:

First draft is done


Bob Orci and his co-writers have finished their first draft for the next Star Trek movie

Finishing the first draft is a big milestone for the ‘development’ phase of the movie. Orci has stated that he expects to start shooting the film next spring, with pre-production starting a few months prior. If Paramount likes the way things are going, then the next steps (while additional drafts are being developed) would include finalizing Orci’s directing deal, setting a budget for the film and of course setting a release date. While Paramount has announced that the next Star Trek film is part of their 2016 line-up, they have yet to set a date for it or other big movies for that year (including Transformers 5). Although just yesterday they did set a June 3, 2016 date for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, after Ninja Turtles scooped up $65M in domestic sales over the last weekend.

TrekMovie will be providing updates on the Star Trek 2016 movie project as they become available.

 

Comments

1. Admiral_Bumblebee - August 12, 2014

Hopefully with Prime Kirk, Prime Spock and Prime Picard in meaningful roles!

2. scifib5st - August 12, 2014

Great, now let start on CBS for a great 50th Ann. show!

3. Elias Javalis - August 12, 2014

Yeah!!! Roberto!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4. boy - August 12, 2014

Orci please remember

ORIGINALITY IS KEY.

5. Dee - lvs moonsurface - August 12, 2014

YAY!

6. Marja - August 12, 2014

Haha, AP, love the headline … signifies a little foreboding thar

Ohhhhhh lawd let it be good let it be good let it be good let it be good let it be good let it be good let it be good let it be good ….

7. Picard, Jean-Luc - August 12, 2014

I’m not fussed about seeing Prime Kirk or Spock but I’d be happy to see them base the 3rd movie on the current Star Trek Ongoing “Q Gambit” comic book series which puts some much needed context into the alternate timeline and ties both prime and alternate timelines together.

The one gripe I have about the new movies is that they don’t feel as much a part of this amazing franchise but rather separate anomalies. 3 movies in and I think they should have the confidence to bring it all together so that future Trek’s can take place in either timeline.

8. Picard, Jean-Luc - August 12, 2014

And yes!!!! There needs to be a new TV series in the works for CBS to announce it at the 50th Trek celebrations.

All this talk about there being no Sci-Fi on TV right now is perfect for Star Trek to relaunch itself as well as the genre on the small screen.

Get some weight behind it too, Neil DeGrasse Tyson seems to spring to mind as a perfect choice for science consultant.

Also bring back the pioneering spirit, lets not just see the holodeck back… lets see some new pioneering technology being imagined up, something that isn’t yet a possibility or reality.

Also also lets not have a recast of TNG but something totally new set onboard a totally new Enterprise.

9. CmdrR - August 12, 2014

Star Trek the 13th? The Night No One Boldly Came Home

Fingers crossed that it’s a truly original and interesting story.

Good luck Bob Orci!

10. jimfinity - August 12, 2014

A resounding YES! to Admiral_Bumblebee’s comment! Give Kirk-Prime and Spock-Prime and peaceful, happy ending…before it’s too late~

11. TUP - August 12, 2014

@1 – YES!

12. Ahmed - August 12, 2014

Perhaps it is about time for a Trek horror movie, this is after all Star Trek THE 13th :-)

Good luck to Orci, Payne and McKay!

13. Khan 2.0 - August 12, 2014

random one word stuff Im hoping for:

May…Spacedock…KirkFu…Refit…Doomsday…Chapel…Decker…Reliant…Excelsior…Picard…Archer…Prime…Klingons…Borg….Shatner

14. MattB - August 12, 2014

I would love to see Picard and Next Gen incorporated in some way… Giving Picard a send off similar maybe to what Kirk got with Generations. Only better!

Hopefully the next film will be more thoughtful and steady.. what ever it’s about… Looking forward to what happens.

15. John Gill - August 12, 2014

Would love to see Q in the next movie, as he discovers the timeline has changed and he wants to “toy” with it, to his advantage, but then discovers that even HE has limitations when it comes to space and time in an alternate universe…

16. Phil - August 12, 2014

Well, now that it’s starting to look official, I suppose the complaining about Bad Robot raining famine, pestilence, and death on the stained memory of all that was holy-Trek will ramp up accordingly….

Que the whine-fest from Oscar in three..two..one…

17. Digsthenutrek - August 12, 2014

Finally!!! This is exciting news. I can’t wait to see what the crew does next! Let’s boldly go where no trek has gone before!

18. Charley W - August 12, 2014

(Yawn) So which city do you destroy in THIS one?

19. star trackie - August 12, 2014

Great news! Love the new universe and can’t wait for more adventures. My only complaint is that we don’t see these guys every week on TV!

20. Marja - August 12, 2014

CmdrR, Star Trek the 13th? The Night No One Boldly Came Home

Or No One Boldly Went Where No One Has Gone Before

21. Marja - August 12, 2014

@ Bob Orci

ALL THE SAME GOOD LUCK AND HOPE YOUR TREK WILL INDEED “GO WHERE NO ONE HAS GONE BEFORE” !

22. Valley Forge - August 12, 2014

Excellent. Best of luck for a wonderful film. The only thing that I don’t want to see, is the Prime characters making an appearance (save that for a new series, 2016, I hope). It’d be a great thing to have these films stand out on their own and maybe even become their own series, one day (the reverse of the previous films).

23. Hillary - August 12, 2014

Oh my God…Oh my God…
After a half year…there is only a draft script?
Poor-poor Paramount.
We’re very sorry for your loss.

But, the biggest problem is that, Boborci and the others are here on this webpage.
To take inspiration from 1000 Trekkies is to go the wrong way.
The new generation was born and they will be more and more…and they are the market. Not some old fan.
Sorry Orci, but we love you.

24. colinar - August 12, 2014

good luck Mr Orci, all the best! we are all looking forward to this!

Thrusters on full…

Greetings from Athens.

25. somethoughts - August 12, 2014

Q

26. Mike Barnett - August 12, 2014

Well, that’s good news!! Hopefully this 1st draft will result in Bob Orci officially getting the director’s gig along with an exact release date.

27. Randumb Thots - August 12, 2014

The Guardian of Forever sends an Enterprise crewman back in time to the 1960s where he tries to make a living by creating a sci-fi television show based on his experiences in the future. The crew must follow him back and pose as the actors playing the fictional versions of themselves in order to infiltrate the production, retrieve their crewman, and restore the timeline.

That’s right, I went there. Come at me.

I do believe that new ideas are desperately needed but seeing as how it’s the 50th anniversary celebration I’m kind of okay with them using all the callbacks in the world for this one. I hope they make it fun above all.

28. Lt. Bailey - August 12, 2014

One step closer….

I still say that someone or the studio do some kind of pre-publicity at next years Star Trek Con(s) to fire the crowd/fans up. Ideally, if Creations could get Bob Orci to appear at the Vegas con in 2015 in order to give us something before the film opens.

Anyway, lets give it a chance as Bob may turn out the best film yet, we never know until we see it.

29. Corylea - August 12, 2014

Congratulations on finishing the first draft! I hope it’s a great script, and I wish Mr. Orci the best of luck in bringing that script from idea to filmed reality.

I hope this new script will bring us a more captainly Kirk and not someone who seems like a child with ADHD. I also hope for a firmly Vulcan Spock and not someone who cries, screams, and tries to beat someone to death. Can we have a logical scientist, please? One who’s wildly intelligent, extremely ethical, and Vulcanly restrained? I’m also hoping for at least one mind meld and at least one neck pinch, because I love those Vulcan superpowers. :-)

30. ado - August 12, 2014

There is one story not yet told….where is the new Vulcan Homeworld???

31. Nony - August 12, 2014

Glad to hear. Though hope, not unlike resistance, is generally futile, I do hope that the ladies are being respected, that there is a bit of character development for Bones, and that the sadly neglected Kirk/Bones friendship is being addressed.

32. DC - August 12, 2014

Are you guys sure that’s the real Roberto Orci leaving comments here?
Still, if it’s true, it’s good to know they have a first draft completed. Just be sure not to rush things along. When you rush, that’s when disaster happens.
Enough with wishing prime Kirk, Spock and even Picard would show up. Haven’t we had enough hand-holding already? You say you want something fresh and new but you don’t trust these writers to do it? I thought the idea was to pass the torch along. Well, the idea to “passing the torch” is to eventually let it go. You know? Either trust them with it or don’t. I personally think the training wheels need to come off.

33. DarExc - August 12, 2014

I’m hoping this is the last new Kirk movie and we can move on to something else after. I’m enjoying them but I don’t love them.

34. Phil - August 12, 2014

@27. Wasn’t that Galaxy Quest?

35. Disinvited - August 12, 2014

33. Phil – August 12, 2014

“Wasn’t that Galaxy Quest?” — Phil

More like GALAXY REQUEST.

36. Christian - August 12, 2014

Bob orci, why no working together with Many Coto? He created some of the best episodes Star Trek has ever seen at season 4 of Enterprise. That was amazing. Maybe one could ask him for some ideas?! It would brilliant. Thi nk about Dexter. One of the best Shows I have ever seen.

Best wishes from Germany :-)

37. James Hams - August 12, 2014

Erm to the guy who said prime Kirk . . .

Big problem. . . He’s dead Jim

38. AJ - August 12, 2014

Yes, but what is CBS going to do to celebrate Trek50? Re-re-re-re-release everything, for sure, but what else?

39. Valley Forge - August 12, 2014

37.

Hopefully, a new series. Which reality, though? Prime? Alternate?

40. dswynne - August 12, 2014

boborci-

Are you guys at BR restricted from making video-on-demand movies through Netflix or something by CBS? I mean, technically, you’re only making movies, not a series…

41. Lainey Dudley - August 12, 2014

All I can say is, you better bring it Mr. Orci or there’s gonna be some very disappointed people out here!! I’m hungry for something totally new and extraordinary. Please don’t disappoint me.

42. Keachick (Rose) - August 12, 2014

OT – Happy Birthday Captain Pike aka Bruce Greenwood – b. 12 August 1956.

Even though it is RIP Christopher Pike, it is greetings and many happy returns to Bruce Greenwood. Have a good one, Bruce!

43. Keachick (Rose) - August 12, 2014

Only two weeks away from Captain Fine’s next birthday. Gosh, how time flies…

44. Anthony Thompson - August 12, 2014

1. Admiral Bumblebee

Hopefully NOT. If you want a nostalgia trip, dig out your old DVD’s (or, in your case, probably VHS tapes).

45. Jon - August 12, 2014

#12

Perhaps it is about time for a Trek horror movie, this is after all Star Trek THE 13th :-)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nahhh…they already did this with STID.

Sorry, I simply could not resist…let the “old fogey” charges start flyin’ :) .

46. Plum - August 12, 2014

Wow! First draft already! Makes me think someone has a great idea and is raring to go! Great news. :)

47. james - August 12, 2014

Good luck Bob

48. Chingatchkook - August 12, 2014

If the word ‘Khan’ is uttered anywhere in this script, I shall let out a loud war cry and commit Seppuku. That is all.

49. Patroclus - August 12, 2014

Why was my post about hoping that Mr. Orci had included an “organically grown” gay crewman deleted?

50. Cygnus-X1 - August 12, 2014

16. Phil – August 12, 2014

Phil, nobody beats you to the punch.

51. Commodore Adams - August 12, 2014

“And its an exciting time am I right”

Good luck Bobby!

A movie for the 50th. Would be nice to have some 50th anniversary TV special, but something less cheesy than the 30th anniversary hosted by Ted Danson. Just watched it the other day on youtube, it makes me cringe its so cheesy and just weak. Other than Ted Danson, you have trek fans like Tom Hanks, President Obama, Daniel Craig, Kelsey Grammar, Eddie Murphy, Ben Stiller, Seth MacFarlane to name a few.

Would be nice if Paramount would clean up the movies and release extended or directors edition steel books with movie poster box art. Enough rereleasing the same old upresed movie. Go back to the film, clean it up, get those black smudges out, add in any deleted scenes (especially in the Motion Picture and Undiscovered Country).

And an announcement for a new TV wouldn’t hurt either.

52. Cygnus-X1 - August 12, 2014

35. Disinvited – August 12, 2014

33. Phil – “Wasn’t that Galaxy Quest?”

More like GALAXY REQUEST.

bada-BING!

53. ados - August 12, 2014

51

Mr Orci is no fan of Tom Hanks…i’m done tilting at that particular wind mill..i forget why Mr Orci has a problem with Tom…but he does…

54. Gary Neumann - August 12, 2014

EPIC BOB! :)

55. Starhawk - August 12, 2014

Awesomeness. But please release your STITD script for fans to read?!

56. Trekbilly - August 12, 2014

Excellent news! Hope there’s some GORN in that draft! :-)

57. Platitude - August 12, 2014

Wishing the best for Bob & co. My family raised me on Trek, and we all loved the last two movies and are excited for more.

58. EM - August 12, 2014

Soooooooooo…..what’s it about?

59. boborci - August 12, 2014

53. ados

I LOVE Tom Hanks. Just wish he didn’t support the lone gunman theory behind JFK death.

60. boborci - August 12, 2014

by the way, TrekMovie, Star Trek the 13th is hilarious. too good.

61. boborci - August 12, 2014

41. I know! no pressure;)

62. Vultan - August 12, 2014

“Fade out” and not “Fade to black”?

Well, this movie is gonna suck.

63. Commodore Adams - August 12, 2014

@ 53. ados – August 12, 2014

Im not here to dispute or confirm that. I’m also not talking about a movie or TV show, I’m talking about a televised gala event type thing, celebrating 50 years of trek. As I said there was a 30th anniversary star studded TV event hosted by Danson, but as I said, its dated and even then was a big corny and didn’t really present the grander and impact of Star Trek.

64. Craiger - August 12, 2014

Hey Bob do you plan on another Hawaii 5-0 / NCIS LA Crossover? This time with McGarret. It be funny to see Hetty and McGarett cross paths.

Also anymore thought to remaking The Final Countdown?

65. Trip - August 12, 2014

All it takes is a little push… Hopefully things will get moving now that there is a first draft.

I refer to this John Lennon quote (after the Beatles broke up) about any potential inclusions of references or homages in 13: “…you have all the old records there if you want to reminisce.” Let’s keep the references in their original films please.

66. Hans Aufmacock - August 12, 2014

That’s great. 2016 is right around the corner. Don’t fuck this up.

67. Captain Smirk - August 12, 2014

Finally, the “Captain Harry Kim” movie we’ve all been screaming for! Er… or not.

68. Jonathan e - August 12, 2014

Congratulations to all involved! Best of luck moving forward. Can’t wait for 2016!

69. I Khan Believe it's Not Butter. - August 12, 2014

While I did enjoy Star Trek 09, STID was a major let down for me.
I lost fate in Orci as an original thinker and writer of good stories.
He showed his utter disrespect towards the fans that have kept Trek alive.
I’ll probably skip this installment.
Outside the current crop of newbies I suspect most of the franchise supporters will skip this also…which will be a large portion of the studio’s expected business.
I’ll simply watch some of TOS and movies.

I’ll also drop in to see if there has been any encouraging news, but from what I’ve been reading that’s not likely to happen.

70. Marja - August 12, 2014

65 Trip, agreed.

71. Joe - August 12, 2014

Great…two full page dark out ads in a row…come on trekmovie….

72. Jonboc - August 12, 2014

Nice to hear the first draft is finished! Congrats writers! Can’t wait to see what imaginative awesomeness awaits during the 5 year mission in the darkest, deepest, unexplored regions of the universe!

73. Jamie - August 12, 2014

Great news!!! Hope Mr. Orci, Mr. Payne, Mr. McKay, and everyone else involved is having a jolly good time cause that always shows on screen. ;)

74. Disinvited - August 12, 2014

#62. Vultan – August 12, 2014

”“Fade out” and not “Fade to black”?” — Vultan

Didn’t you hear? Outage is the new black.

75. Viking - August 12, 2014

Bob – give Simon a little more Scotty-ish tasks to perform this time around. Like a scene on the hull with a giant socket wrench, bitching about the spark plugs or something. LOL

76. Mike Barnett - August 12, 2014

69. I Khan Believe it’s Not Butter

Cheer up, buddy! This will be Orci-Trek, not JJ-Trek. Bob is one of us, a Trekkie/Trekker. The franchise is in good hands.

77. Thomas Anderson - August 12, 2014

http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/kennedys-elite-dynasty-got-decimated-pt/

@boborci

The above is an interesting read on JFK

78. dmduncan - August 12, 2014

Good news. How many drafts left to go?

79. Commodore Adams - August 12, 2014

@ 69. I Khan Believe it’s Not Butter

I can understand and sympathize, but we all know, even from day one 1964/65 that the first pilot had to be changed (forced to be changed by network executives) for more fisticuffs gun slinging action. Where No Man Has Gone Before is drastically different than The Cage. It was after that change, that new formula of Trek which included Kirk, Spock and McCoy that people fell in love with. Personally, I love The Cage. These new movies are a new formula, the mixture might not be right, it might not work for everyone, but its all we have right now.

Bottom line, though, it still holds true what Gene said, and that is not to dumb it down assuming its playing to a dumb audience. More thought provoking less bang bang.

I believe they’ll pull it off. After JD mentioned this movie asking bigger questions, walking out of the theatre asking yourself, “what would I have done”, keeps my faith alive.

80. Keachick (Rose) - August 12, 2014

#53 Yes, but there are all those others. It would be great if President Obama were able to show his trekkie nerd whatever side. I believe this is now his second and last term in office as president, so being part of the 50th anniversary of Star Trek could be a cool send-off for a US president…:)

81. Harry Ballz - August 12, 2014

Bob Orci

I still think a time travel movie about someone going back to try and prevent JFK’s assassination is commercially viable.

But, hey, that’s just me.

82. USS Enterprise B - August 12, 2014

Bob, this is the first time in over ten years that a Star Trek movie will be made / released around the same time as a Star Wars movie (2002 was the last time this happened with ST Nemesis & SW II). Most of the attention these days is going to SW VII, but I am giving both ST III & ST VII equal attention. What can you bring to the table to give ST III a leg up on SW VII? I believe in you, but we need a game changer to keep the public eye on new Star Trek! What you think??

83. Buzz cagney - August 12, 2014

Ok, so isn’t this the point in the production of the last film that they crossed out all the original bits and went scurrying back off to all the movies that came before for inspiration?
Be brave this time, Bob. Something new is what is needed.

84. Harry Ballz - August 12, 2014

Buzz, my old friend, how are you?

85. Amber - August 12, 2014

Stay same actor. I don’t want reboot new actor. I’m excite to hear new movie :)

86. Curious Cadet - August 12, 2014

@81. Harry Ballz,
“I still think a time travel movie about someone going back to try and prevent JFK’s assassination is commercially viable.”

You’re absolutely right Harry. Bad Robot is already producing a nine hour miniseries based on exactly that — Stephen King’s “11/22/63″. That’ll be it on the subject for a while I reckon. Gene Roddenberry’s dream for Star Trek II will have to sit on the shelf a little while longer.

87. Buzz Cagney - August 12, 2014

I’m ok thanks Harry. And yourself?

I’m assuming you’ve seen the Red Dwarf episode where the Dwarf crew find themselves in Dallas and have to persuade a time-travelling JFK that he must assassinate himself to protect his legacy? Now that really is the only Lone Gunman theory that i’m willing to buy into! :)

88. Hillary - August 12, 2014

82. USS Enterprise B
I understand you, what do you mean.
And totally agree with you.
Moreover, a good ST might have defeat SW.
The market does not need hilarious story (do not just be funny). In that case, Orci give a role to Adam Sandler and Ben Stiler.
I’m beginning to understand William Shatner’s words. He’s right… :-(

89. Hillary - August 12, 2014

76. Mike Barnett
I would like to attention you. Primarily, J.J. is a director. (At ST). If a writer/writers stay the same, the franchise stayed on the same hand! ST ID equal ST XIII.
A movie based on a good story. If the story is mid-level, a good director just tries to would a castle from “sh.t”.
The script of the ST ID is mid-level, and J.J. took this story to its maximum potential.

90. French Trekker - August 12, 2014

Bonne chance to Orci’s team.

And please, please, bring back Shatner to say goodbye properly this time…

91. Cygnus-X1 - August 13, 2014

74. Disinvited – August 12, 2014

”“Fade out” and not “Fade to black”?” — Vultan

Didn’t you hear? Outage is the new black.

You’re on fire!!

92. Cervantes - August 13, 2014

So many possibilities for Bob & co. to have chosen to go with the latest NuStoryline at this stage…

Will it be NuKlingons?…NuBorg?…NuKhan (again)?…NuQ?…or some other character (or device) culled from past Trek series/movies, but given a Nu re-imagining?…or will it be a completely new NuCharacter (or device) altogether that we’ve never seen before?…or will it even be a mixture of more than one of the above?…or will it even be an ‘undoing’ of certain events of the past, such as ‘Prime’ Kirk’s poorly realised demise?…or even a return to the ‘Prime’ timeline somehow?

Some of you will have your own preferences, while others will be happy to take what they get from the current writers.,,but at this moment we have the ‘possibilities’ to look forward to.

And I have my own preferences of course (although the latter two options are highly unlikely, sadly!), but either way I hope I can like whatever direction the writers have chosen the NuStoryline to take.

However, apart from the announcement of a new ‘Trek’ show, the other thing I would dearly love as part of the 50th Anniversary celebrations would be…an announcement to say that Robert Wise’s Director’s Cut of ST:TMP was getting it’s effects work remastered for a Blu-ray upgrade.

Good luck with your mission Bob, wherever you have chosen to take us all.

93. Janice - August 13, 2014

42. Keachick (Rose) – August 12, 2014

” OT – Happy Birthday Captain Pike aka Bruce Greenwood – b. 12 August 1956.

Even though it is RIP Christopher Pike, it is greetings and many happy returns to Bruce Greenwood. Have a good one, Bruce!”

YES—Happy Birthday to Admiral Pike (Bruce Greenwood).
I would be absolutely elated if somehow Admiral Pike made an appearance in the new movie. If that’s not possible i’ll be taking a pass—-. They made a huge mistake with Pike in STID. He should still be alive.

94. Admiral_Bumblebee - August 13, 2014

Will there be as much secrecy around this movie as there has been around the last two, Mr. Orci?
Or will you use some elements as announcements to generate interest for the movie?
For example if you would bring back William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and Patrick Stewart, would you use this as an announcement or would you keep it as a surprise?

95. Timncc1701 - August 13, 2014

Boborci, thanks for caring enough to keep listening to the fans here. I am encouraged by reports that this will be about the 5 year mission of exploration and not about more peril to Earth. I am hoping that the characters move closer to prime universe maturity. Respect for having the thick skin to hear all comments. May the wind be at your back.

96. Scooter - August 13, 2014

I hope the next movie stands on it’s own and not on old story lines and characters. You have a new ship, new actors, new time line. Make better use of it.

97. Scooter - August 13, 2014

I hope the next movie stands on it’s own and not on old story lines and characters. You have a new ship, new actors, new time line. Make better use of it.

98. drumvan - August 13, 2014

thanks for the update boborci and anthony. great to have you both back at it! feeling like “old times” again.

99. I Khan Believe it's Not Butter. - August 13, 2014

@ 76. Mike Barnett – August 12, 2014
69. I Khan Believe it’s Not Butter

Cheer up, buddy! This will be Orci-Trek, not JJ-Trek. Bob is one of us, a Trekkie/Trekker. The franchise is in good hands.

Mmm, my problem isn’t with JJ’s direction, which for the most part was flawless and a good match with new Trek.
If Orci is with us, then why on Earth would he go with a badly conceived redo of Khan base mythos?
You really think JJ at some point said “Bob, I want a Khan based story line to piss off the fans”

Sorry, but Bob Orci is responsible for that horrible choice…and I am sure he will do it again.
If he directs, Lord only knows what mess that man will create.

100. JimGrant1701 - August 13, 2014

Hope it’s a sequel to Star Trek and not STID. I think we’re in good hands with Bob Orci.
Don’t care so much about the prime characters, but would love to see Shatner, Nimoy and Nichols as older versions of the characters. Please no 24th century stuff.

101. Disinvited - August 13, 2014

# 97. I Khan Believe it’s Not Butter. – August 13, 2014

” You really think JJ at some point said “Bob, I want a Khan based story line to piss off the fans”” — I Khan Believe it’s Not Butter.

I don’t think JJ used those words exactly, but actually I think JJ, who is a writer in his own right, did pretty much that. Or rather I believe Lindelof pitched it and JJ bought Khan hook, line, and sinker including the convoluted reasoning “I can’t make STID just for fans. I have to make it for the non-fans using a Trek super villain that they’ve most likely heard of.”

102. Curious Cadet - August 13, 2014

@91. Janice,
“They made a huge mistake with Pike in STID. He should still be alive.”

There are several ways this could be accomplished.

1) The most obvious: Khan’s Magic Blood — Pike was put into stasis and revived later after the effects on Kirk’s resurrection were studied.

2) Pike created an interactive hologram of himself (like Jor-El in Man of Steel) which he bequeathed to Kirk allowing him to dispense sagely advice and continuing to mentor Kirk in the event of his death.

3) Through another time travel trip, The Enterprise ends up in yet another parallel universe where Pike is still alive. (Conversely Pike comes through an inter dimensional rift from another universe).

4) The body that was killed was a clone of Pike’s and the real, still paralyzed body, remains in stasis where his consciousness was transferred back using the Camus II device Marcus found, thus putting Pike back into a wheelchair as destiny requires for the universe to “heal itself”.

5) Pike was a Corby-type android (developed much earlier due to Nero), and simply needed to be repaired.

6) A shape-shifter (Garth?) masquerades as Pike in the next movie. Either to gain Kirk’s trust in a new story, or they visit the Shore Leave planet, or Excalbia, where Pike is recreated for Kirk’s amusement or a test. Alternately, the next movie is the mission to Talos IV where Pike is created as part of an elaborate illusion. (OK, this would not really be Pike, but it would get the character back).

7) Should Orci continue to borrow entire plot lines from the Harve Bennett movies, Star Trek 3 sees Kirk & Spock stealing the Enterprise to inter Pike’s body on Talos IV, a mission Spock tricks Kirk into doing (with the assistance of the Talosians), in violation of Federation law.

8) The next movie opens in Kirk’s bedroom, and find’s Kirk and two cat-women in bed the morning after. Kirk wakes with a massive headache, checks his communicator and realizes he’s late for a meeting with Pike, throwing what’s left of a bottle of Romulan Ale in the recycler. When he arrives at Pikes office with Spock, Pike rewards him for his industrious thinking on Nibiru with a 5 year mission, and Kirk realizes the events of STID were all just a dream … But one that taught him some valuable lesions which he carries with him, vowing never to let such events happen under his watch (nor to drink black-market Romulan ale with strange cat-women again).

9) or my favorite — Pike appears as a spirit, along with Spock’s mother and George Kirk, a la Star Wars with Ben, Yoda and Vader. Pike’s disembodied voice will be heard motivating Kirk during moments of doubt or confusion, saying “trust your gut, Jim”.

So never fear, with Orci at the helm, there are endless ways Pike could be brought back.

103. Curious Cadet - August 13, 2014

@100 Curious Cadet MORE,
“one that taught him some valuable lesions which he carries with him”

In re-reading I just realized I was auto-corrected to “valuable LESIONS”, rather than lessons. Combined with a night of debauchery with strange cat-women, I just got an idea for Orci’s next sophomoric sight-gag — an alien STD that causes his groin to swell up enormously, so Bones has to meet him on the way to Pike’s office and give him an injection to reduce the swelling. It’s a classic Bones lecturing Kirk about the importance of protection (and a valuable lesson for teen audiences), with Spock rolling his eyes, while passing women stare at his crotch and giggle (with Kirk milking he attention of course), and the swelling just going away as Pike steps into his office where they are waiting. HI-Larious!!

104. Ahmed - August 13, 2014

@ 78. dmduncan – August 12, 2014

“Good news. How many drafts left to go?”

A good question.

105. ncc-73515 - August 13, 2014

maybe this time, the Enterprise will have to face a small, white, and friendly ship.

106. TUP - August 13, 2014

Boborci should send me a copy of this draft. I will punch it up for him. Free. ;-)

Also, I agree Pike should not have died in STID. it was a wasted moment in an effort to give some emotional motivation to Kirk. Didnt work. And as motivation for the silly Spock/Uhura argument, it was even worse. If Pine was to die, it should have been him in the “Spock” WoK role, dying in the irradiated chamber at the end or, even better, being saved by the “magic blood” and thus giving us another “good” example of the universe “fixing” itself by giving us Pike from The Menagerie. Oh well.

107. Red Dead Ryan - August 13, 2014

#105.

“maybe this time, the Enterprise will have to face a small, white, and friendly ship.”

In 2016, the Enterprise will go head to head with a certain small and white ship from a galaxy far, far away……the Millenium Falcon.

Just not on the same screen, unfortunately. :-)

108. Elias Javalis - August 13, 2014

Bob, more Mechanical Seat – belts for the Crew please;)

109. michaelknaepen - August 13, 2014

@boborci

Please carefully read post nº 4 and a personal request: please don’t lie to the fans again, like the reboot lie & the direct Kahn lie. I am a die hard fan,but can deal with the alternate universe. I don’t like being lied to straight in the face, though. A no comment, or we want to surprise the audience, or whatever, would have worked for me.
Now best wishes and break a leg for the biggest project of your life! Fifty Years Trek, our 20th century culture “Odyssey saga”.

Live Long And Prosper

110. Ahmed - August 13, 2014

@109. michaelknaepen

“please don’t lie to the fans again, like the reboot lie & the direct Kahn lie. I am a die hard fan,but can deal with the alternate universe. I don’t like being lied to straight in the face, though. A no comment, or we want to surprise the audience, or whatever, would have worked for me.”

As far as I recall Bob didn’t lie to us, he evaded giving direct & clear answer but he didn’t lies.

Abrams, Simon Pegg & Alice Eve are the ones who lied openly about Khan.

111. Mr ATOZ - August 13, 2014

Would love to see Rand, Kyle and Chapel in this movie!

@boborci just something to note as you make Trek 3. Please give us a better blu-ray release loaded with extras. STID was such a disappointment. Congrats on getting the first draft done!

@62 you’re an idiot

112. Marja - August 13, 2014

A belated Happy Birthday indeed to the handsome and gentlemanly Bruce Greenwood. [He's exactly six days younger than I am!] [Wish I looked so good]
—————————————————————————————————–
101 Disinvited I don’t think JJ used those words exactly, but actually I think JJ, who is a writer in his own right, did pretty much that. Or rather I believe Lindelof pitched it and JJ bought Khan hook, line, and sinker including the convoluted reasoning “I can’t make STID just for fans. I have to make it for the non-fans using a Trek super villain that they’ve most likely heard of.”

Yep. This is what I’ve thought for some time, because it was my impression that O&K did not want to do Khan.
——————————————————————————————————
105 ncc-73515 maybe this time, the Enterprise will have to face a small, white, and friendly ship.

At the very least, a small ship. That’s a color other than BIG BAD BLACK. Plenty of colors in the spectrum.
——————————————————————————————————
106 TUP And as motivation for the silly Spock/Uhura argument, it [Pike's death] was even worse.

Erm, actually, I think the motivation for Spock and Uhura’s discussion [which was "silly" in your opinion, and quite justified in mine], it was Spock’s descent into an active volcano and his willingness to die for the Prime Directive when he could be rescued. [I have had problems with their being in company with others during the discussion, but believe the discussion between them was warranted.] Of course some people will do all they can to belittle the coupledom of Spock and Uhura. Fie!

I DO AGREE WITH YOU on this I agree Pike should not have died in STID. it was a wasted moment in an effort to give some emotional motivation to Kirk.
——————————————————————————————————–

113. Disinvited - August 13, 2014

# 112. Marja – August 13, 2014

” I DO AGREE WITH YOU on this I agree Pike should not have died in STID. it was a wasted moment in an effort to give some emotional motivation to Kirk. ” — Marja

I agree too. But I fear a ST3 resurrection resolution of it even more. Because the reasoning is going to be: there’ll have to be a price, and I don’t think I want to endure Kirk’s mother’s or Chekov’s death. One thing I will hold in its favor: I doubt it will derail a more promising narrative in the Trek film after it

114. Chris Roberts - August 13, 2014

By accident or by design, the Enterprise & crew find themselves back in 2233 and have an opportunity to save the U.S.S. Kelvin. How? They seal the original “lightning storm in space” exit point BEFORE the Narada came through in the first place.

Spock would ironically be the one who’d debate with Kirk about not doing this… even though he’d ultimately have as much – if not more to gain.

In leading up to that, you just continue to portray the universe Nero created descending into chaos and destruction. Then have fate hand the Captain more than self-interest as a motive. Somebody aboard the U.S.S. Kelvin becomes as important as Edith Keeler… but instead of a necessary destined death, the more straight-forward absence of a figure who’s continued existence would’ve been a positive influence on history.

Narada is lost, never to be seen or heard from again. While Nimoy Spock still arrives in 2258 to settle down in his own past. Hiding himself away on Vulcan and keeping out of history’s way… aside from a chance meeting with Sarek. Meanwhile elsewhere we see the Enterprise in orbit and aboard is Quinto Spock serving under Greenwood’s Pike. Coming from Earth to rendezvous is the U.S.S. Farragut and there among her crew we find Kirk, Bones and Scotty. Recent graduates Sulu, Uhura and Chekov are transferred over from the Farragut. Before heading off, Kirk catches his first sight of the Enterprise… Bones says something to snap him out of an eerie feeling.

115. Chris Roberts - August 13, 2014

By the time you get to a Star Trek fourteen, the film opens aboard a wholly CG take on the U.S.S. Enterprise motion picture refit first seen in 1979. Same cast now based in the Prime Universe, heading off on the second Five Year mission. All decked out some uniform we’ve never seen before, that falls between the pastel jumpsuits and maroon jackets.

116. Daoud, The Sinfonian - August 13, 2014

In honor of Star Trek The 13th, I won’t be surprised if @boborci will insert a redshirt character cleverly named Jason! And he better be Ensign Jason Del Trame, because unless I missed it, we still haven’t had a character named in honor of our departed friend British Naval Dude.

117. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

81. Harry Ballz – August 12, 2014

Aaah. Harry, I was wondering why your tone toward Bob seemed uncharacteristically hostile, lately.

The best way to prove someone wrong is to do what they think cannot be done.

Is it too big to raise the money yourself to make? Or do you just want to sell it off?

118. Cygnus-X1 - August 13, 2014

117. dmduncan – August 13, 2014

81. Harry Ballz – August 12, 2014

Aaah. Harry, I was wondering why your tone toward Bob seemed uncharacteristically hostile, lately.

I remember that, too.

And actually, I would like to see Harry’s movie more than what Bob is probably going to turn out. I’d suggest maybe one of the fan productions, but Harry’s story would probably be too costly to make. I don’t think it can be shot all on studio sets.

119. Hugh Hoyland - August 13, 2014

Bob, how many draft’s do you think it’ll take to get it right? 6,12 a case? :]

120. Harry Ballz - August 13, 2014

117&118

Thanks for the interest, guys!

My screenplay, The Grassy Knoll, reached the semi-finals in a worldwide Creative Awards competition, so I’ve had some nice feedback on it.

There are only a handful of sets needed for the story, so it wouldn’t cost that much to make.

121. I Khan Believe it's Not Butter. - August 13, 2014

@104. Ahmed – August 13, 2014

@ 78. dmduncan – August 12, 2014

“Good news. How many drafts left to go?”

A good question.

Answer: After the studio OK’s the completely original story line using new characters,villains and places we never saw before, a second and third step evolution will return us to a NuKhan story since he’s still out there…and Orci still believes we fans actually want that despite our objections to the very idea of another Khan story.

122. Chingatchkook - August 13, 2014

@81. Harry Ballz- It’s already been done. Read Stephen King’s novel 11/22/63. Awesome novel, great story…I hope they make a movie out of this one.

123. Keachick (Rose) - August 13, 2014

Interesting because I have even asked Harry Ballz here why he seems so very belligerent of late toward STID. Then I remembered that Harry sometime back kept wanting feedback from writer Bob Orci on a script he submitted for Orci’s attention. I gather that Bob Orci did not give (enough) favour that Harry had hoped for or could not see the screenplay making it to film, hence the anger expressed here. I am sorry if that is the case.

I am pleased that your screenplay, The Grassy Knoll, has done well and you have received nice feedback. Maybe you will be able to put it to film. That would be a good thing for you, Harry, to concentrate on.

However, it does come off as being a bit of sour grapes/bad loser syndrome when you are angry, especially when, in one or two comments, I thought I was reading something that I am not Herbert or Oscar might have written. That’s just the feeling I have been getting.

Harry Ballz – you have proven over the last four years that you and I have been coming to this site that you are better than that. Please – for your sake, mostly – let us have some of the *real* Harry Ballz back.

Take care, Harry Ballz – the one and only…:)

124. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

120. Harry Ballz – August 13, 2014

If you haven’t seen it yet, you really should try to watch Tales From The Script, which is a good documentary from various scriptwriters’ points of view of what it means to work in Hollywood.

You should not feel bad if your script didn’t get the treatment you think it deserved because it isn’t always a measure of the quality of what you made.

Some great, successful movies almost didn’t get made because someone else with the money in Hollywood thought the idea was either crap or wouldn’t work.

It’s part crap shoot, part timing, part who you know, and part willingness to fit in with how things get done out there — more, I think, than it is about how good what you wrote is.

That’s why I always promote the DIY attitude.

Hey, I’d be happy to read what you wrote if you want the feedback.

And if you really feel strongly about it, try raising the money for the production yourself.

125. Harry Ballz - August 13, 2014

Please, everyone, remember the chronology of my comments.

Way back, when I was engaged in feedback with Bob Orci regarding my script, and he was kind enough to read it and give me nice feedback on it, we were all posting comments here regarding Star Trek 2009. I really liked ST 2009 and said so.

More recently, I’ve been extremely negative in my comments regarding STID, not because of “sour grapes” at Orci regarding my script, but because I really hated STID, straight and simple.

When one of the most powerful people in Hollywood agrees to read your script, you don’t lash out at them after the fact.

As we’re all adults here, I have simply stated my blunt opinion regarding STID, as it would be disingenuous of me to give false praise to STID, especially if It were with the goal of pandering to Bob Orci.

Some of you here may resent my critical remarks regarding STID, but I can assure you my comments are specific to that movie and no other motivation.

126. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

122. Chingatchkook – August 13, 2014

Tell that to Stephen King. Harry did it first.

127. Harry Ballz - August 13, 2014

WITH no other motivation

128. Harry Ballz - August 13, 2014

@126

that’s true. I filed my screenplay with The Library Of Congress at. Least 10 years ago, long before King published his book.

Oh, and I read King’s book 11/22/63 when it came out. He bases his story on the idea that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman in Kennedy’s assassination. Absurd.

129. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

125. Harry Ballz – August 13, 2014

Well I hear you, man. The more I watch STiD the less I like it. I still love ST.09, however.

But I’m not sure Bob appreciates the nuances of our positions.

130. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

I was watching ST.09 yesterday, in fact, and was marveling at how smoothly everything fits and works together. I even caught something I hadn’t before:

Pike says to Kirk “you can be an officer in 4 years, have your own ship in 8.” So the writers showed there a sense of what it normally takes to get your ship, and it’s a time period that tracks more closely with what we might expect. So it’s not like, as some allege, that they were totally unaware of how long it should take Kirk to get a ship when they gave it to Kirk after such a short period of time at the end of the movie.

Whether you agree with their thinking or not, it shows they KNEW it should normally take a longer time. So it wasn’t an ignorant blunder by the writers as some tried to make it seem.

131. Harry Ballz - August 13, 2014

I LOVED Star Trek 2009 when it came out. I saw it 4 times in the theatre and have watched it a dozen times more on DVD. the first time I saw it in the theatre, my face was sore after it was over, as I had been grinning like a fool for the whole 2 hours.

That is why I was heartbroken by STID.

132. boborci - August 13, 2014

94. I cant tell you the answer to that;)

133. boborci - August 13, 2014

78. dm

as many as it takes!

134. boborci - August 13, 2014

109. I never lied. check the record:)

135. boborci - August 13, 2014

116. thanks for reminding me. He’s going in!

136. Mad Mann - August 13, 2014

Harry, I agree about STiD. It had some very cool moments, and then some very frustratingly bad moments. And I also really liked ST 2009.

I do have faith in ST the 13th, though. I believe that since Lindelof is gone, a lot of what worked against STiD should be gone as well.

My favorite thing about ST 2009 as a whole is how it all flowed organically. The humor, especially, was due to character’s perception of events and other characters’ differences. The humor in STiD, however, felt forced and too cliche at times and just fell flat. And then so did certain plot points and reveals. “I am Khan” fell very flat.

I am cautiously optimistic about this one….

137. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

133. boborci – August 13, 2014

Good answer.

138. Gary Neumann - August 13, 2014

who else is going in bob? :D

139. Keachick (Rose) - August 13, 2014

I agree with those who think the biggest mistake was to have John Harrison actually turn out to be Khan (Noonien Singh – according to the ongoing comics). John Harrison should have just been that and, if Khan had to get a mention at all, he (Khan) still be in cryostasis with his English crewman out and about in this alternate 23rd century…

I believe this is how Bob Orci had originally written the character, but got vetoed by the Supreme Court who seemed to think that it was a good idea to bring Khan back and then have him played by Benedict Cumberbatch.

Nevertheless, BC did a good job and I have no trouble with the Kirk/Spock twist on TWOK movie – an interesting homage. I would have preferred if Spock had screamed “Nooooo!” rather than “Khannnnn!”.

Anyway, this is all water under the bridge, as they say. Yes, the movie could have been better – hindsight being the wondrous thing that it is. I was disappointed that Khan had been included in this film – third time – sheesh already, but I’m not heartbroken about it or anything else.

Bob Orci (Hi!), if he has read my missives, will surely know what have me “take wing” and fly as a kea(chick) needs to and it has little to do with space battles, punch ups, kicking, cities being destroyed etc. He knows this from my very first posting to this site more than four years ago (just for the record). However I got it anyway, along with the “busyness”, ie look of the bridge.

I’m OK though. I need to be. I see that much of the action genre film making does reflect (and perhaps reinforce) the cynical, almost dystopian, mindset that is in prominence in much of our (western) society. Even when one is trying to be positive, no one can be *too positive*; it must be tempered with *grittiness*. A hero must be a bit badass, especially if he is *pretty* looking and so it goes on…all this is just so much bs.

Anyway, I hope you, Bob, Patrick and JD can bring to us, or me at least, what is truly lovely the Star Trek way and leave dystopia behind, just for a couple or so hours… Can you do that?

140. Michael Hall - August 13, 2014

Try as I might, it’s just impossible for me to get into the mindset of those who loved Trek 2009 but detest STID. Both films have pretty much the same weaknesses in terms of plotting and structure–no, I won’t get into that argument again at this point–but at least the latter tries, however fitfully, to be about something, has a much better-motivated villain, and is even more visually spectacular. No criticism intended to those who feel differently; I just honestly don’t get it.

141. Curious Cadet - August 13, 2014

@126. dmduncan
“Chingatchkook, Tell that to Stephen King. Harry did it first.”

Back @86. I wrote that Bad Robot is already producing a nine hour miniseries based Stephen King’s “11/22/63″.

So that’s that. Harry May have done it first, but Bad Robot is producing King’s time travel novel for TV first. Interesting connection between Harry, Orci and Bad Robot. But there’s surely no conspiracy there.

142. Curious Cadet - August 13, 2014

@134. boborci,
“I never lied. check the record:)”

Well that’s at least your second lie then, since you admittedly lied about lying. Unless you were lying about lying about lying; in which case, then this is your, um, second lie (still).

143. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2014

I liked Star Trek 2009 but was critical of it. To me, it was Star Trek Lite. I mean check out the documentary on the DVD where they had a section called “What can we learn from Star Wars.” Yeah, what I saw on the first movie was Star Trek told from a Star Wars perspective.

You must ask yourself of any Star Trek movie, “Is it Star Trek?” And so we must define what is Star Trek. I go to The Great Bird of the Galaxy, Gene Roddenberry, for that answer. By the way, the first BR movie was dedicated to him. Anyway, he wanted Star Trek to be science fiction that had substance. That means the show or movie had ideas whether they be political, philosophical or scientific. Letter of GR, paragraphs two and three.

http://trekmovie.com/2010/11/30/letter-of-note-gene-roddenberry-defends-star-trek-the-cage-pilot/

I kept an open mind on Star Trek Into Darkness even though I thought bringing Khan into it was a big mistake. When I saw it, I was delighted. It was Star Trek. There were multiple ideas or themes in the movie. The Prime Directive. War. The war on terror. Death. Life. Revenge. Friendship.

I have seen STID three times at the theater. IMAX. 3D. And 2D with my brother and sister who are Trekkers though not as passionate as I am. They loved STID. You see we are the quiet majority that made STID the highest grossing Star Trek movie ever.

I have seen STID many times on Blu Ray and EPIX. . And there are things that you may have missed. I marvel at Chris Pine’s Kirk. He’s young and is beginning to mature. This is not Kirk of the TV series. We’re not there yet. But watch Pine’s face as he changes his mind about killing Khan and instead follows Spock’s advice not to. He announces to the crew that they’re going to capture him. It’s a scene where we see a little of the Shatner-Kirk wisdom beginning to grow. There’s also a Guantanamo Bay metaphor at the end. (Think about the fate of Khan’s crew.) And Cumberbatch’s Khan is an awesome display of acting.

To Bob Orci,

Congratulations on getting the keys to the Enterprise. I have always said you should be Star Trek Czar. That’s because you’re one of us and you get Star Trek.

Captain. The word is given. Warp Speed.

144. boborci - August 13, 2014

143. basement b

nice! thank u:)

145. Phil - August 13, 2014

@139. STID has been getting played pretty extensively on one of the cable channels here in SoCal…for all my mouthing off about the movie earlier, on multiple viewings it’s not that bad. To your point, I’ve been paying attention to the flow of events, and for the most part, if Harrison had not been reveled as Khan the movie could have played out exactly as shown, with a few tweaks…I still don’t like the third segment, but it would have been a bit more palatable had they just left it Cumberbatch as Harrison.

It’s armchair screenwriting at this point, it is what it is.

146. Mad Mann - August 13, 2014

I just thought how weird it is flipping between Shark Week and what’s going on in Ferguson. It’s like Discovery wants us to trend #sharkweek on Twitter, but #ferguson is number one, I think.

I think this would make great fodder for a Star Trek movie. The people fighting back against what both government and corporations want us to follow. UFP would be forcing people to not worry about end of universe, but crew of Enterprise uncovers plot and saves both the universe and creates transparent government.

Anyway, Power Rangers? Really? Is that better than Viewmaster?

147. Cygnus-X1 - August 13, 2014

130. dmduncan – August 13, 2014

Whether you agree with their thinking or not, it shows they KNEW it should normally take a longer time. So it wasn’t an ignorant blunder by the writers as some tried to make it seem.

I haven’t seen anyone argue that it was an ignorant blunder.

The issue that people have is that Kirk ascending to the captaincy in such a rushed and haphazard manner, especially given the way that his personality and character were presented (immature, loose cannon, inexperienced), came across as overly fantastical.

The writers obviously found this a valid criticism, as they then demoted Kirk in STID in a plot point that seemed to be leading to a redemption theme for Kirk. But, then, of course, they completely undid that plot point and scrapped the redemption theme by re-advancing Kirk to the captaincy 10 minutes later in the movie, thus rendering his demotion a shallow, superficial gesture, like every other would-be theme in the BR Trek movies. Not to mention that the demotion was consequent to a nonsensical Prime Directive would-be theme.

148. Harry Ballz - August 13, 2014

@147 Cygnus-X1

“The writers obviously found this a valid criticism, as they then demoted Kirk”

I’m sure the writers would say they demoted Kirk, just to have him promoted again, in an attempt to prove that he was inevitably destined to command the Enterprise. The timeline repairing itself and all that.

Horsesh*t on line one!

149. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

@140: And you don’t have to get it. Maybe you should just treat it as one of those things that, understand it or not, exists.

For me the difference between ST.09 and STiD couldn’t be clearer. ST.09 is a much better MOVIE.

Ticking off a list of checkmark boxes is a bad way to make and evaluate a movie, because a good movie is more than a series of good ingredients. It’s not as if you can say, “Oh STiD has more of a message, ergo it’s a better movie,” or “STiD has a better fleshed out villain, ergo it’s a better movie.”

I mean, try to cook that way and see what happens.

STiD may have a set of more carefully deliberated on pieces in it that match what some fans think Star Trek should be about, but they don’t fit together or harmonize as well, and evaluating the quality of a movie is, to me at least, about evaluating how it works as a whole.

There should be a rule, for instance against raiding your own material for the sequel. If it was cool that the Enterprise rose out of clouds or there was a space jump in one movie, don’t try to duplicate that in the next movie. Do something different that is ALSO cool.

Otherwise it’s like one of those one hit wonder bands that tries to duplicate their success by coming out with a song that sounds just like the hit they had…but with different lyrics…

STiD also had a number of awkward mood transitions — Kirk asking McCoy about the tribble, Spock’s touching speech to Uhura punctuated by the impact of Klingon disruptors — that are symptomatic of pieces that were individually well thought out but didn’t fit well next to each other.

And one sign of a good movie is parts that fit well next to each other.

Normally you would keep writing the thing until all those awkward bits smoothed out. But that didn’t happen for STiD.

But you know, I don’t even really want to rehash all this about STiD any more. I’m over it, and hoping for the best next time around.

Bob is the right guy to direct and I hope he enjoys the hell out of the job.

150. Cygnus-X1 - August 13, 2014

140. Michael Hall – August 13, 2014

Try as I might, it’s just impossible for me to get into the mindset of those who loved Trek 2009 but detest STID. Both films have pretty much the same weaknesses in terms of plotting and structure–no, I won’t get into that argument again at this point–but at least the latter tries, however fitfully, to be about something, has a much better-motivated villain, and is even more visually spectacular. No criticism intended to those who feel differently; I just honestly don’t get it.

I largely agree with you.

Nero is a very badly written character, if you stop and think about his motivation. And ST09 didn’t even have the shallow gestures of themes that STID had. ST09 really wasn’t about anything other than exposition and plot. There was certainly no theme arising out of the conflict between the villain and the protagonist.

However, I do understand why people tended to find ST09 more entertaining than STID:

ST09 was new. It was a new concept, a new approach at Trek, a new style of filmmaking. That newness carried it a long way. All of the characters and their backstories (well, some of them) had to be introduced. Again, all new stuff about characters in whom we were already vested going in.

And ST09 doesn’t suffer as badly from plot convolutions as STID does. ST09 is filled with ridiculous plot-contrivances (like the whole Delta Vega part), but they’re not as confusing as the plot of STID, which many people found hard to follow.

The most confusing part of the ST09 plot was the time-travel plot device, but people tended to forgive that by suspension of disbelief as is typically required in sci-fi. They just chalked it up to somehow making sense, and the writers must be really smart and can’t be blamed for writing something so smart that it went over our heads. I think that this effect was intentional on the part of the filmmakers—cutting the movie together at a very fast pace with sparse dialogue to create the impression that it was a smart movie, even too smart for much of the audience.

But, in terms of the variety of problems that plague STID, they’re all present in ST09, but to a lesser degree. Weakly written characters, plot contrivances, inadequately explained backstories and plot points, bad science, problematic tech conceits, lack of a meaningful theme—they’re all there in both movies.

ST09 was just more entertaining and flowed better, due to its newness and lack of plot convolutions that plagued STID. But, STID has a few individual scenes that I found more powerful than any in ST09—namely, Pike’s death and the scenes with Khan and Marcus, both of whom, as problematic as the writing was, were still better villains than Nero; and perhaps the greater value in Khan and Marcus was as much due to the performances of the actors as to their parts having been a bit more fleshed out. I mean, Nero was just awful. Paper thin. What a badly written character. It’s hard to imagine that people got paid to come up with Nero.

151. Cygnus-X1 - August 13, 2014

*hard to believe, I mean

152. Cygnus-X1 - August 13, 2014

143. Basement Blogger – August 13, 2014

There were multiple ideas or themes in the movie. The Prime Directive. War. The war on terror. Death. Life. Revenge. Friendship.

These were more premises and plot points than themes.

There was no moral takeaway from STID. If TOS was a show based on moral allegories, as Nick Meyer put it, then what was the moral lesson that you took away from STID? There really wasn’t one. Not a meaningfully developed one, anyway. Kirk’s speech at the end of the movie is meant to summarize the movie’s theme as warning against becoming as evil as your enemy by your desire to take vengeance upon him, but the movie wasn’t really about that. That was a gesture of a theme, not a real theme.

153. Keachick (Rose) - August 13, 2014

Starfleet did not promote to Kirk to captain again. Kirk offered himself to be the one to go get/do in this terrorist Harrison. Admiral Marcus gave him what could be called a field promotion in what he told Kirk would be a covert operation. As Kirk said, he could go after Harrison, whereas regular Starfleet officers could not.

Pike made a case for Kirk’s reinstatement as Captain Pike’s first officer on the Enterprise. Although, in other circumstances eg out in deep space, Kirk would become captain upon Pike’s death or incapacity (which would have been later officially ratified – maybe), that was not a certainty here.

I never see any of this as the timeline repairing itself. Perhaps that was what the writers had in mind, but frankly it is neither here nor there. These people still have to deal with what is presented to them, just like anybody else anywhere/everywhere else.

154. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

And I really have no idea how Bob truly reacts to reading criticism of his work. My only guide is that I am a very tough critic of my own stuff, and because being that makes me better I think it’s good to give feedback to others where I think it may be welcome. So it really is given out of respect and an honest desire to be useful.

I’m not Roger Ebert making a living by offering this stuff. It would be less time-consuming to not offer it at all, and it’s not as if I have nothing else to do.

155. Just Another Salt Vampire - August 13, 2014

Dear Bob Orci and the powers that be,

Now that the technology exists to create a credible three-legged Edosian, could we please, please, please see an appearance by Lt . Arex?

Please?

Thanks.

Sincerely, Just Another Salt Vampire

156. Michael Hall - August 13, 2014

Cygnus X-1,

Really excellent posts. They address my question directly and honestly. . . and without any unnecessary condescension, which is much appreciated. FWIW I’ve really come to appreciate what you bring to these boards, even when we disagree.

It may well be that Trek 2009 flows better, is more of a piece and thus works better as pure cinema than STID. Frankly, it’s so full of things that bother me as a fan of Trek, science fiction, and drama, that my judgement may be clouded in that respect. After five years and multiple viewings, that probably won’t change. So be it. Personally, I think the recently released, fan-produced short PRELUDE TO AXANAR works better than both of them as Trek and as cinema, and by a long stretch.

157. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

By far the most powerful scene in either of the movies was George Kirk’s death. STiD has nothing even closely comparable to that.

Pike’s death was a checkmark box: Kill major character! And it felt just as forced. All I took away from that scene was incredulity that they had sacrificed a power-piece like a pawn, which I would not have been thinking were I busy wiping tears.

158. dmduncan - August 13, 2014

“Every time I get out…they PUUULL me back in!”

159. Buzz Cagney - August 13, 2014

#120 wow, that’s very impressive Harry. Well done.
And i’m with you. Trek ’09 had me grinning from beginning to end- with breaks in between to wipe away a few tears. It wasn’t perfect but it was damned bloody good.
STiD was just a disappointment in comparison. Too much repetition of what we’d seen before.
Still, onward and upward for the next one. Confidence is, surprisingly, high for this one.

160. Cmd.Bremmon - August 13, 2014

@ 143

Those themes in STID were in my opinion dumbed down or poorly explored (disappointing since I loved, LOVED Star Trek 2009 and at first watching even got into STID):

Prime Directive – Kirk violates the Prime Directive and gets a slap on the wrist from Starfleet as if it was no big deal to them. In TOS it was clear that entire starship crews were supposed to self destruct or let entire populations wipe themselves out to avoid interference with primitive cultures. When Kirk violates the Prime Directive in TOS he does so playing with the rules / grand justification (Klingons, balance of power, computer already interfered, whatever) and Starfleet never really gets involved, because if they did there would be consequences.

War – What was the real message on war here? The good guys are going to become the bad guys so there is no real war? Kahn is a misunderstood sympathetic character who just wants to save his family? I know we are all big on the progressive slants these days but it pretty much made Kahn boring. If you want to play that game why bring in Kahn who should have been the ultimate evil villain and then the Klingons, the Soviet Union from TOS? Why not come up with something new if you want to explore this grey area instead of boring down the evil?

War on Terror – Kahn takes out Starfleet Command but it turns out Starfleet Command are the bad guys. Ironically the crazy Starfleet Command was the one thing they got right from TOS so I didn’t mind that, I did mind the dumbing down of Khan and the Klingons. They took the not boring ultimate bad guy from Star Trek II the Wrath of Khan who was responsible for genocide, Eugenics wars, believing everyone should be slaves to his superiority and make him a boring poor misunderstood misused guy whom we should feel sympathy for. I guess there is a message there, it’s just counter to the one they wanted to hint at.

Death – Even if you die, super blood will save you?

Revenge – What revenge? Kahn getting revenge on Starfleet for stealing his family? Spock getting revenge on Kahn? It’s right when it’s Spock, it’s wrong when it’s Kahn? Don’t get the theme.

Friendship – I guess Kirk did sacrifice himself to save his crew…. just like Spock did in Star Trek II. I guess I can go with that, especially since the saving grace of Star Trek Into Darkness was that you can try to take out all the good vs evil, wagon train to the stars fun of Star Trek TOS as much as you want but Captain Kirk, Spock, McCoy arguing emotion vs logic is fun to watch and the characters Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Chekov, Uhura, Sulu just scream entertaining heroes.

SIDE NOTE – I really hated how the Enterprise was again inconsequential… I loved Star Trek 2009 and got it – the Enterprise was facing 24th century technology but even then put up a fight against all odds. Did we really need to have the Enterprise incapable of putting up any resistance? Next movie if we have Klingons and we are going to do a ship battle can we see a D7 cruiser go up against a Constitution evenly matched in all but the skill of their commanders? Master and Commander remains one of the Star Trek movies ever made. Alternatively set the movie 20 years from now when the Enterprise is reclassified a freighter or something.

161. Keachick (Rose) - August 13, 2014

The best part of Kirk’s speech was deleted from the blu-ray/DVD versions…:((

UNACCEPTABLE

The fact that Cygnus and others appear not to have taken away any moral lesson is surely not the fault of the writers, because others did. The other aspect here is that Star Trek should not necessarily be about saying what the solutions should be, ie this is right and that is wrong, but present situations that require people to think about how they might solve a particular problem or whether or not they agree with what the characters believed and how they behaved.

The movie presented two opposing points of view on how the prime directive should be interpreted, along with the issue of lying and loss of trust.

It is up to the viewer to understand what may be presented, or not. I cannot understand why some of you cannot see what I see – honestly.

162. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

155. Michael Hall – August 13, 2014

Thanks, I enjoy your comments as well.

I’m excited to see what Alec Peters does with Axanar—more excited than I am about BR Trek 3—but, I’m hoping that it’s built around a meaningful theme and character arcs and isn’t just plot, dramatic scenes and production value. Obviously, Peters and his crew are competent technicians. I’m sure that Axanar is going to be tight and look great. And the pacing in the Prelude was even good, which is no easy accomplishment. But, I hope that Peters doesn’t fall into the BR trap of all sizzle, no steak—turning out a great looking production that is largely devoid of meaning.

163. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

#159 – Really? Unbelievable – what movie were you watching?

Kirk loses his command, his ship and gets kicked back to the Academy. Besides, prime Kirk was always *violating* some aspect of the prime directive. Then again, how does one actually define what this directive really means? Humans merely being in space may well the biggest violation of the prime directive – period. Perhaps that was the point of this part of the film – I don’t know. I think, I muse…

As for the rest – wow…:(

Gotta go now – for real.

164. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

156. dmduncan – August 13, 2014

By far the most powerful scene in either of the movies was George Kirk’s death. STiD has nothing even closely comparable to that.

I knew that someone was going to mention this.

I don’t give the George Kirk death scene as much credit because it was as cheap ploy to get the audience emotionally invested at the beginning of the movie. Getting the audience to feel sympathy for a woman giving birth while the father of her child sacrifices his life for them is not much of an accomplishment. Just like torturing an innocent child to elicit resentment for the villain would be a cheap ploy and not much of an accomplishment. Yes, the scene succeeds in eliciting emotion, but it’s cheap and the emotional effect is largely disconnected from the rest of the story. The tears were jerked out of us by George Kirk dying don’t really pay off the Jim Kirk character in the rest of the story. The beginning scene is a set piece, emotionally disconnected for the most part from the rest of the story…

Pike’s death was a checkmark box: Kill major character! And it felt just as forced. All I took away from that scene was incredulity that they had sacrificed a power-piece like a pawn, which I would not have been thinking were I busy wiping tears.

I agree with you on Pike’s death also being a cheap ploy at the beginning of the movie to get the audience emotionally invested. (That’s the BR Trek recipe. Look for someone to get killed off at the beginning of the third movie.) My appreciation of that scene is really due to the actors’ performances.

The interplay between Pine and Greenwood works well (for me, anyway) and, cheap as it was to kill him off, the emotion evoked by the death of Pike actually has meaningful (or would have been meaningful if the writers hadn’t blown it) ramifications for the story as a whole.

In a better written script, the emotional tone of Pike’s death would have gradually built and transformed into anger and hatred as Kirk became consumed by his desire for revenge. That’s what the movie was supposed to be about, anyway, according to Kirk’s monologue at the end.

But, mostly, it’s the performances of Pine and Greenwood that make the scene for me. It’s not just the plot point of an important character (the favorite BR Trek character for many of us) dying that makes the scene emotional, but the nuances in how the actors play the scene.

By contrast, the emotion evoked by the George Kirk death scene is mostly attributable to the premise—a father dying as his wife gives birth, with very effective sad music played over it—which is a tear-jerker from the word go.

The interplay between Pine/Weller and Pine/Cumberbatch also works well. These aren’t terribly important points for me. The movie has so many flaws, that I’m really just trying to point out the bright spots where they exist, and I’m totally fine with people not appreciating them as I do. But, it’s mostly the performances that I appreciate in STID. The actors give us some good scenes in spite of the shortcomings in the script.

165. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

*the bright spots where I see them, I should say.

166. Miko - August 14, 2014

50th anniversary!!!!

You have got to open the movie like this…enterprise comes into veiw the crew discover something (your story mr orci) , then pan round there faces and fade out to….”the original tv series opening” but reimagined with the new ship and chris pine saying “space the final frontier…..etc” then we see the enterprise zooming past various planets, especially the iconic red one from the 60’s opening.
Blah blah…take us into the story.
I just saved trek 3, with one swift move…oh and throw in the uss constellation and the doomsday machine for good measure, ok…good!

167. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

CygnusX1 – Just about everything comes off to you as a cheap ploy or conceit or it seems to me.

I do think that the writers have left so much unwritten and unexplained especially about the young James Kirk’s life and how his widowed mother of two young boys coped. The impression is given is – not that well. When Winona said to George, “I can’t do this without you” she may have been totally serious. Not all women can cope that well on their own rearing children and children do need their fathers, or a good supportive male role model. It appears that young Jimmy missed out on much…

I also see the same bright spots that you see, but also a lot more.

Is it a bit contradictory for people to say that not only was STID’s story was dumbed down but also convoluted? I mean – which is it?

168. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

#159 – “War” – When the story takes place, there was no war. The Federation and Starfleet were not at war. Admiral Marcus feared that the Klingons could be gearing up to start a war, but that had not happened. All that Marcus reported was that the Klingons had attacked one or two Federation outposts. It was Marcus who was busy building a big warship and new long range weaponry. What the Klingons were doing, well Marcus could have been right…but that’s no reason to fire on their planet unprovoked.

The fact that Marcus called the ship Vengeance meant that he was confused between war for the sake of revenge as opposed to a war that could come about, despite legitimate efforts to resolve grievances, antagonisms in a fair and just manner.

The lesson – Sometimes good guys can do bad things and need to be stopped before they go too far.

“War on Terror” – You seem to think that the film was saying that Khan, because Kirk allowed him to explain his perspective, “*Kahn is a misunderstood sympathetic character who just wants to save his family”.

Why would you think that? Kirk made it very clear to Khan (and the audience – you only need to listen) that Khan was a prisoner who was being taken back to earth to stand trial for his terrorist crimes and that justice (not vengeance) would be served. Kirk did not falter in his resolve. Khan did have legitimate grievances but that did not make him particularly sympathetic.

If these sentiments are believed and shared by a great many Americans, about how (suspected) terrorists should be treated, it is no wonder that Guantanamo Bay exists, rendition occurs, imprisonment without access to legal counsel or trial has become part of the American way of late.

Obviously, the “lesson” from STID in this respect, has not been understood or learned – quite the reverse. This is truly disturbing.

* At least the name KHAN could be spelled correctly.

“Death” – Yes, well, superblood did mean life that for one dead tribble and one just dead James Kirk, but only under very extraordinary circumstances and even then, Dr McCoy had his work well and truly cut out for him. Generally speaking though, without having access to Khan’s blood and having the correct component in the right quantity, death is still final, ie dead…

“Friendship” – well, STID provided little free time for these characters to develop good friendships through sharing of recreational pursuits so I guess it was shown in how they got on with one another while on duty. Kirk was fairly easy going, similar to how TOS Kirk was most of the time. This would have allowed for some positive crew interaction that was not just about their duties.

“Side Note” makes no sense. Master and Commander was not a Star Trek movie.

169. dmduncan - August 14, 2014

They are working on a new movie. Let’s start looking forward again.

Anthony: News, please! And step on it!

170. Tiger - August 14, 2014

Congrats on the first draft Bob! Let’s just hope this is more original and written better then STID…much better!

171. Picard, Jean-Luc - August 14, 2014

Regarding Star Trek Into Darkness…

The fact that so many fans enjoy aspects of it and hate other parts of it, suggests to me at least that it was a brilliant Star Trek movie, something fans will pick a part for years to come. That to me is the sign of a great movie. whatever you may feel about Star Trek Into Darkness, it has provoked debate.

What hurt Star Trek Into Darkness from breaking over the 1bn mark was all the stuff surrounding it. The four year wait between Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness clearly sucked all the momentum out of the success of the 2009 movie, that was a huge mistake made by Paramount, CBS and Abrams. Not listening to Abrams regarding the marketing and branding of Trek beyond the 2009 movie was another ridiculous mistake made by CBS who seemed to make it incredibly difficult for anything to be done with Star Trek between 2009 and 2013.

The mystery of Khan, the random date changing by Paramount, the fact it was squeezed into the tightest of opening dates between Iron Man and Fast & Furious, both of which will always cater for a larger audience. And then we have Star Wars…

Star Wars presents a problem for these Star Trek movies. Since Star Wars has smashed its way back into the mainstream spotlight, Star Trek will have a huge job in muscling back into the spotlight. For reasons I’m unsure of to the mainstream, there’s no difference between them. It’s just that over the years Star Wars has been better at marketing to the mainstream than Star Trek has…

So personally the way I see it is that Star Trek by 2016 should be well on its way back into television through either Netflix or on standard TV. Star Trek’s home is on TV. Regardless of there being no Sci-Fi on TV at the moment, Star Trek should pioneer the genre’s return.

Let me preface this by saying I enjoy and like the movie to this day, when I saw it at the cinema my jaw was firmly fixed to the floor, honestly I’ll love anything Star Trek. Its brilliant seeing Star Trek done in this size and scope. The acting was brilliant, the special effects were jaw dropping… But…. It’s not the strongest Star Trek movie ever and there are bits of it that I get irritated by.

I liked the whole section 31 thing but why wasn’t anyone aware of Admiral Marcus? Why was the Vengeance so blatantly a villainous looking ship and where did Marcus get his crew from? I think a better story would have showed how this universe’s Starfleet was a bit more defensive after Vulcan was wiped out and explaining that so that the Vengeance would have been a ship built like any other Starfleet ship and not shrouded in secrecy, I’d have liked to have seen a Starfleet that was all in agreement that it needed to be more militarised.

Why do Khan? Cumberbatch is an amazing actor and could have played a new villain to even become Star Treks best villain as John Harrison or someone else! Starfleet themselves could have been trying to breed the perfect red-shirt soldier to defend Earth and the planets in the federation with one of those soldiers being Cumberbatch…. He could have played a character on the run from starfleet after wiping out the installation where they were creating this new breed of red-shirt soldiers.

It’s well documented by Abrams, Bob, Kurtzman and Lindeloff that to not do Khan would have begged questions from fans of this revived universe, but why would those questions have been a bad thing? Keep fans wanting Khan whilst doing something original.

Making the audience think about the reasons Starfleet had changed would have been an interesting angle to approach Into Darkness and having our crew come to terms with and then try and convince Marcus that Starfleet had to stick to the prime directive.

As the master of mystery I expected more from Abrams, I expected something new, something original rather than making a very large homage to Wrath of Khan.

I don’t feel nearly as strongly as some fans do regarding the whole ripping off Wrath of Khan but I can understand why many fans were simply tired of Star Trek stories harkening back to “the glory days”

What the next Star Trek needs, regardless of whether its on TV or the big screen, is an original story, something that is as new to fans as TNG seemed to TOS, something that pushes the boundaries of what we know to be Star Trek not just through bigger ships, louder explosions but through basing a story on issues that effect us today.

The monologue read at the start of every episode of TOS and TNG is where this movie should kick off, not by exploring aspects of stories we’ve already seen in the past, but exploring something new.

Whilst exploring the unknown is something I think all of us would like to see, I’d also like to see this crew and this universe become more a part of the established Star Trek timeline. I think much of the problem fans have with this new universe isn’t so much that the scope and size of each of the movies resembles the size and scope of Star Wars, it’s that it feels disconnected with the rest of the franchise.

There is an argument to be had about the direction these two movies have taken Star Trek in, I do think more needs to be done to return Trek to exploration of new worlds and civilisations and through that spirit of exploration and adventure we find out something about our own lives. In essence I think a more intellectual approach to the next movie whilst maintaining the fun and adventure, size and scope.

Finally as I realise I’ve rambled on quite enough… CBS and Paramount need to get a grip and look at the recent success of Guardians of the Galaxy… Star Trek is a known universe with known characters yet if it can replicate the success that movie had with a focused and dedicated marketing strategy then we should all be so lucky.

Confidence in the brand is so vital and I just don’t see anyone involved in making Star Trek being all that confident about it. That desperately needs to change.

172. Michael Hall - August 14, 2014

“I don’t give the George Kirk death scene as much credit because it was as cheap ploy to get the audience emotionally invested at the beginning of the movie. Getting the audience to feel sympathy for a woman giving birth while the father of her child sacrifices his life for them is not much of an accomplishment.

Yes! And furthermore, why does the crew of the Narada even allow George Kirk to make his noble suicide run without backing off or blowing him out of the sky? For all of its emotional impact the scene as written and structured just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, just as the Enterprise being built in a Iowa cornfield and Spock’s witnessing Vulcan’s destruction from a distant planet don’t make any sense. But going for a cool visual or emotional effect irrespective of the story’s internal logic, scientific reality or plain common sense also seems to be part of the BR recipe, and I mean no disrespect to some obviously talented people when I suggest that a Bob Justman or Gene Coon would have torn such stuff to pieces and sent the writers to bed without any supper, long before it got anywhere near a camera.

That said. . .

“They are working on a new movie. Let’s start looking forward.”

I agree, and wish Mr. Orci nothing but the best.

173. Curious Cadet - August 14, 2014

@128. Harry Ballz,
“Oh, and I read King’s book 11/22/63 when it came out. He bases his story on the idea that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman in Kennedy’s assassination. Absurd.”

Harry, I don’t think King spells out Oswald acted alone. Oswald is merely a trigger man, and since he is stopped from ever pulling the trigger, there is no way to know in the book, whether his bullet was even the one which killed Kennedy. Multiple gunmen are never precluded from his premise. And I really enjoyed the twist in which time creates a situation where no one is able to witness the shooting of the general. In my estimation, this is how Oswald’s presence on the 5th floor of the schoolbook depository should have been handled, but I reckon King figured he couldn’t pull the same stunt again, and he probably does believe Oswald was the lone gunman (or at least one of the gunmen). In other words, I don’t like knowing that Oswald was ever on the 5th floor, much less in that sniper’s nest. But I suppose the evidence of Oswald coming down the stairs is so overwhelming as to put him in that position, no matter what his actual contribution to Kennedy’s death.

Even though 11/22/63 is going to make it on screen first, I’d still love to see what you’ve come up with involving multiple gunmen. So I hope you do manage to get your project on video soon! But please assure me it doesn’t not involve Klingons! Haha

174. Curious Cadet - August 14, 2014

@163. Cygnus-X1,
“The tears were jerked out of us by George Kirk dying don’t really pay off the Jim Kirk character in the rest of the story. The beginning scene is a set piece, emotionally disconnected for the most part from the rest of the story…”

And they attempted to do exactly the same thing at the beginning of STID. We may have forgotten that the preview with the Hobbit premiere originally opened the film with Harewood and his wife driving to visit their terminally ill daughter. — 1) open the film with a scene to emotionally invest the audience and jerk the tears out of them — CHECK.

But it didn’t work. It was sad for sure, parents watching their little girl die, but having Harrison ominously offer to help is not the same payoff as George Kirk dying to climactic music. So Abrams was evidentially finally convinced to move it to the number two spot and open with a much more effective action open.

No doubt it was written and intended to mirror the same effect they achieved with George Kirk’s death in ST09. Tick the boxes, tick, tick, BOOM.

175. Ralph Pinheiro - August 14, 2014

Bob Orci, I wish you good luck and success in your work.

You are all aware of the problems and success you experienced in ST and STID.
You has more knowledge of Star Trek than all of them in Bad Robot and Payne & McKay are young minds and with fresh ideas.

176. Darryl G - August 14, 2014

Bob,
Congrats on being promoted. Just one thing. Can we please get real phasers on both the ship and hand weapons? Phaser banks are much stronger than the star wars style ship blasters and the phew, phew, phew of the hard phasers appears kinda wimpy compared to the phasers in the original.

Your enterprise is supposed to be a better ship than the tv series version, so make it so….

177. Mel - August 14, 2014

In one of the Star Trek TOS novels the Enterprise has a Horta as a crew member, which was a really nice addition in my opinion. Is there any chance that we will see a Horta on the Enterprise or somewhere else in the next movie?

178. TUP - August 14, 2014

Marja – unless Im mistaken (only seen STID three times, all I could stomach), Spock used Pike’s dying as motivation for his explanation to uhura about the fear Pike felt when dying or something like that. It was an awful death on many fronts. The idea that anyone could grab a small vehicle and attack the executive briefing room at Starfleet HQ shortly after a major terrorist attack is laughable.

As much as I like Pike, I am not in favour of a resurrection because it would be silly at this point…UNLESS ofcourse they do the epic I envision and “correct” the timeline, ending with film with the timeline back to “normal” and Pike then re-appearing.

The problem with the “timeline correcting itself” idea is the lame excuse of that concept. This idea Bad Robot “freed” itself from canon and yet invoke canon whenever they want is contradictory. The somewhat throwaway line by Spock Prime was inserted to explain away the canon fodder so that the writers could a) have fun with references and b) use canon to market the film while claiming they had freed themselves and everything was new and original when it wasnt. They wanted their cake and to eat it too and that helped give us the mess of STID.

And unfortunately, because that was a mess, now at a time when we should be getting a really good feel-good epic with Shatner, Stewart etc, the writers are forced to go the other direction out of fear of sinking into a parody due to the mess of STID. Sad, really.

Only in Star Trek do people whine about the age of the actors and needing to go young and new and fresh. Star Wars casts Ford, Hamil & Fisher and everyone cheers. X-Men casts Stewart etc to return and everyone cheers. In Star Trek the suggestion of using Shatner and Stewart is met with “what? Come on, lets go younger and original”. Ridiculous.

The gravitas that Shatner and Stewart would bring to the 50th Anniversary of Star Trek would be incredible. Talk about a gift to Paramount in promoting the movie, just their names in the credits would buy them PR they could only imagine.

179. Picard, Jean-Luc - August 14, 2014

Since I rarely post here, here are some opinions I have on the two new movies:

Pros:

They’ve reintroduced Star Trek to a broader audience

The style and scope of them is amazing, this universe looks beautiful

The acting is second to none especially the main cast.

The casting has been superb, each of the main 7 are cast amazingly well. They all get the characters they’re portraying without falling into parody. They walk that line between convincing and parody incredibly well. Cumberbatch and Weller in Into Darkness added a huge amount of credibility to those roles too and had Cumberbatch been playing anyone else but Khan, no one would have had a bad word to say about his performance.

The ships especially the look of the Kelvin inside and outside was superb.

Cons:

It’s all style over substance in many cases

Too much has been taken from Star Wars to create this Star Trek universe

It’s lost a lot of its charm by being a little less classical and more rock and roll

it’s not pioneering anymore (and hasn’t been since Voyager really)

Exploring the final frontier hasn’t happened (yet)

These characters have yet to really cement themselves into the franchise and the universe they’re meant to be a part of.

I like the new Enterprise but when we consider the fact that JJ Abrams is re-creating the Millennium Falcon like for like inside and out as it was seen in the original trilogy for Episode 7, why wasn’t the same done with the Enterprise? The designers could have easily re-created the original series Enterprise and made it look incredible for the Big Screen to us fans and newbies, it’s the most iconic space-ship of all time and has a timeless design to it, it did not need to be made into a hot-rod.

Whilst every care is being taken to maintain the style of Star Wars, I feel the very opposite was done to Star Trek because of the fear that it looked too outdated… It didn’t and would have looked brilliant had the original 60’s style been given more depth and attention to detail for the big screen.

I agree that the phasers from the ship and weapons should all be redesigned to look like the weapons from the prime timeline ships, a beam of light emitting constantly from the ship and weapon rather than the current setup.

Had this been a series of movies set 100 years AFTER Picard and Janeway’s era in the same timeline then fine, technology changes, but since you went back (regardless of it being an alt timeline) the ships and tech should have more closely resembled if not completely copied like-for-like the design and style of the tech and ships from the Original Series.

The Star Trek universe is as important to maintain the integrity of as it is to maintain the integrity of the Star Wars universe. So far the integrity of the Star Trek universe has been compromised by the addition of an alternate reality. I would very much like for OUR prime reality to continue… And this is coming from a fan who by and large enjoyed both Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness…

Finally, the alternate universe idea hasn’t worked. Instead of creating a relevant universe for new fans to enter the franchise from, it’s become a “cheap imitation” of its former self. Rather than enticing a new generation of followers into the fold, we have the casual movie-goer watching these movies people who couldn’t care about the history of Star Trek or why it’s so important to it’s fans. You have not only created two movies that suck all the importance out of Star Trek, but two movies that haven’t actually managed to entice that new fandom it so desperately needed after Enterprise. Rather than going in a completely new direction it has resorted to borrowing ideas from the prime timeline… It has reduced Star Trek to the level of Transformers, GI:Joe and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in all honesty and has divided not just the franchise but the fan-base. In an era of movies and franchises that are doing nothing but expanding on their established universes and characters, it would be nice for Star Trek to do the same, tie it back into the one, Prime Timeline.

180. Dennis C - August 14, 2014

If we can tell a story that doesn’t involve destroying planets, leveling cities, seeking revenge or characters getting in touch with their feelings I’m on board with this.

And lose the lens flares!

181. dmduncan - August 14, 2014

172. Curious Cadet – August 14, 2014

Uh! Did you just give away the ending???

182. dmduncan - August 14, 2014

178. Picard, Jean-Luc – August 14, 2014

I like the new Enterprise but when we consider the fact that JJ Abrams is re-creating the Millennium Falcon like for like inside and out as it was seen in the original trilogy for Episode 7, why wasn’t the same done with the Enterprise?

***

Noticed that JJ Abrams is far more reverential to his preferred franchise, have you?

Saboteur!

183. Bassmaster22 - August 14, 2014

So in other words, they successfully recycled a bunch of previously unrelated plotlines into a single film so they can please the fans with two hours of head nods.

Wonder what we’ll get. A whale seeking probe? Destruction of Praxis? V’ger?

I hope the writers are smart enough to know that the fake timeline should have diverged enough to not have anymore unrealistic coincidences.

New writing or no writing. Thanks-

184. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 14, 2014

178. TUP

With all that logic and sense in your last post, I thinking you must be a blue collar guy.

The suits just don’t have very good senses like yours, these days, do they?

185. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 14, 2014

176. Darryl

Way to go!

I am thinking the new Star Trek writers should really be watching TrekMovie’s every post!

186. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 14, 2014

164. Cygnus-X1

What ever you do. Don’t see Guardians!

Hailing frequencies closed.

187. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

The Klingon moon, Praxis, has already been destroyed in this new timeline. There is no such thing as a fake timeline. You are either in one or other timeline. It is called Life.

188. Harry Ballz - August 14, 2014

@124 dmduncan “Hey, I’d be happy to read what you wrote if you want the feedback”

dmduncan, I’ve always admired the intelligence to your comments and I would really appreciate it if you’d take the time to give my script a read.

My email is michaelappleton@outlook.com. If you write me, I will post here with the first few letters to your email, and you can corroborate if that is, indeed, you. After that, I will forward my script.

189. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2014

I like “Star Trek Into Darkness”. Not as much as “Star Trek” ’09 though.

I didn’t mind Pike’s death. (Not that I wanted him to die, but that’s due to how well Bruce Greenwood played him) It works in the context of the movie. Kirk loses a mentor via a chain of events/actions unleashed by Admiral Marcus. Marcus was the main bad guy, whose attempts to use John Harrison/Khan as his pawn in planned war against the Klingons ends up backfiring as Khan goes rogue and targets Starfleet Headquarters in revenge.

Admiral Pike’s death was collateral damage caused by Marcus. People die everyday as collateral damage from the actions of others, particularly those in power.

My beef, though, is that there should have been a short flashback sequence explaining Khan’s change of appearance. I know they did it in the comics, but still, it should have been covered in the movie. It was simply too important, running time be damned.

Also didn’t like the underwear scene. There was absolutely no call for that.

And Spock yelling out “KKHAAANNNNN!” was a bit forced. Spock didn’t know Khan long enough. But I did like Kirk’s self-sacrifice scene.

Scotty was great in this movie. I like how he stood up for his convictions, doing the right thing and not just blindly following orders. It’s only when Scotty resigns that Kirk begins to question Marcus’ motives, which then leads to Kirk maturing as a leader as the movie goes on.

As for Khan’s “magic blood”, it really isn’t much of a stretch. We know in real life that some people’s blood/immune system is resistent to HIV/AIDs and other illnesses. Factor in genetic engineering, and the fact that Kirk’s body wasn’t damaged to the point of recovery, and the scene depicting his resurrection isn’t that far-fetched.

I also really enjoyed the visual effects, especially the space-jumping scene.

Overall, STID is a very good movie. But not quite up there with the first, which was a near-perfect Trek movie and reboot.

190. Valley Forge - August 14, 2014

To Bob Orci.

Is there any chance that any of the other media for the Alternate reality is canon? The Star Trek Ongoing comics, 2013 game (which I personally loved, I don’t understand all of the hate and am still hoping for another game).

Also, may I request, in “Star Trek XIII”, that a direct telling of the fact that the Prime reality is still ongoing is in the film? It would clear a lot of things up for some fans that believe the Prime reality is gone. Just having Spock say that the reality Spock Prime arrived from runs parallel would work.

Also, having Spock mention to Kirk that he was told by Spock Prime that Kirk was born in a barn in Iowa and then mentioning to Kirk that he is technically an alien would be a humerus joke (that would offend Kirk, most likely).

Anyway, I just wanted to express some ideas, I hope they aren’t the worst in the world. Good luck on the third film, I’m hoping for a 2016 release. I really enjoyed the first two alternate reality films.

191. Valley Forge - August 14, 2014

An added thought to my joke line would be, “My counterpart noted that where his Kirk was born in a barn in Iowa, you, Captain, would in this reality be technically considered an alien to Earth.”

Anyway, how is everyone, today?

192. Ahmed - August 14, 2014

@ 190. Valley Forge – August 14, 2014

“2013 game (which I personally loved, I don’t understand all of the hate and am still hoping for another game).”

Abrams himself hated that game & blamed it for the not so great domestic box office !!

=======================

J.J. Abrams said in an interview with GamerHub this week that Star Trek: The Game — which generated terrible reviews and crummy sales — “was obviously a big disappointment to me.”

“For me, emotionally, it hurt because we were working our asses off making the movie and then this game came out and it got — this isn’t even my opinion — it got universally panned,” he said. “And I think that it was something without question that didn’t help the movie and arguably hurt it.”

http://deadline.com/2013/09/j-j-abrams-gripes-about-star-trek-video-game-a-big-disappointment-to-me-587013/

193. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

I agree with your summation, Red Dead Ryan.

I find some of the criticisms leveled against this movie quite silly. One of them has been the showing of the Enterprise rising up through clouds and water and the space jump scene that were similar to those in the first movie (ST09). So what? Honestly? We don’t criticize movie and TV series makers because they will show people driving cars or being on aeroplanes in all or any piece of film depicting current methods of transportation.

Well, people in the future may need to make such space jumps for various reasons and starships could be within a planet’s atmosphere (or even ocean perhaps) and shown making its way through, up and out… it would be no more different than showing a car being driven in our time and place (earth, 2014).

I never found the idea of a genetically engineered human being’s blood possibly having remarkable regenerative powers as silly or daft. Dr McCoy described Khan’s blood as being superblood. Given the right conditions, it just might be possible for that blood to bring a (newly) dead tribble back to life and even a newly dead human back. It was clearly easier for the tribble, possibly because it is a smaller, and less complex being biologically and because it had not been exposed to the radiation as Kirk had been. This superblood clearly could not bring back all who had died and the notion that some people have that this film suggested that it would/could is nothing short of ludicrous. Just very dumb thinking.

Yes, I agree that some explanation was required as to how this Khan’s (presumably Khan Noonien Singh) appearance had altered somewhat. However, my guess is that it was being left open…the ongoing comics do give some explanation, but I prefer my own…:)

Anyway, I am hoping for less brutal action in the next film, more fun, interesting dialogue between the (main) characters and a lovely story – is that possible, p & m & o?

194. Cervantes - August 14, 2014

As someone who felt it was unnecessary to see NuAdmiral Pike killed off in the last movie, I’d like to see a way where the excellent Bruce Greenwood could be shown onscreen again.

If they don’t revive him with some NuKhan’s ‘magic blood’ nonsense, then a straightforward way to include the actor in the next one could be this method – just have a kind of ‘flashback’ moment where NuKirk has a ‘thoughtful recollection’ of NuPike offering him some words of wisdom to him in the past, about something or other.

I certainly agree with those that were disappointed to see his character killed off, as he gave the first 2 reboots some much needed gravitas.

195. Valley Forge - August 14, 2014

@194. Cervantes

He was a great part of the two films. If he can’t return, then seeing Admiral Jonathan Archer’s alternate reality self, would be a welcome feature. An aged Scott Bakula role.

If he and Kirk start to form a bond, that would be a nice touch. Perhaps a flashback, of the three that assists in Archer’s addition to the story after Pike’s passing.

196. Tom - August 14, 2014

#178 TUP

Great points. I really hope that they do come up with something new and fresh (no reworked episodes)BUT iat the same time could still utilize the great history of this franchise. Is it not possible??

197. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

#195 – That could work. It would be good if both Bruce Greenwood and Scott Bakula each got a part in the next film.

They cannot revive Pike with Khan’s specially engineered “superblood” because he has been dead for too long. For all we know, Pike may have been cremated.

This so-called superblood, I suspect, is something developed to allow for people going into longterm cryostasis and to be safely brought out of it, among other things. This means it may be that the other members of Khan’s crew may have a similar component in their blood, but Dr McCoy did not have time to find out. He already knew whose blood worked and he needed more of it.

198. Valley Forge - August 14, 2014

@197. Keachick (Rose)

Exactly. A flashback (perhaps in a video file, or a mind meld) may be the best option.

I’m still curious to see if Kirk has any superior strength, or mental capability, now.

199. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

186. TrekMadeMeWonder – August 14, 2014

What ever you do. Don’t see Guardians!

heh – I’m not planning on it. ;-)

200. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

167. Keachick (Rose) – August 14, 2014

CygnusX1 – Just about everything comes off to you as a cheap ploy or conceit or it seems to me.

I’m just calling it as I see it. The production values, music and performances carry the script to a point, but when a viewer starts to question the characters’ behaviors (which, granted, not all viewers do), the movie’s strengths simply can’t cover up the gaps and deficiencies in the writing.

Is it a bit contradictory for people to say that not only was STID’s story was dumbed down but also convoluted? I mean – which is it?

The would-be themes—doing anything for your “family;” Kirk’s epilogue at the end about becoming your enemy; the Prime Directive bit—were dumb. I wouldn’t say that they were “dumbed down,” as they were never really built up and developed. It’s like the writers came up with some ideas for themes on the back of a napkin over lunch and just penciled them into the script with the intent of developing them later, but never did and the penciled-in parts made it into the final cut.

(continued below…)

201. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

I just cannot get the rest of my response to Keachick through this filter. I’ve tried several variations on spelling of suspected verboten words, and it never goes through. Let’s see if this goes through.

202. Yanks - August 14, 2014

@ 59. boborci – August 12, 2014
53. ados

I LOVE Tom Hanks. Just wish he didn’t support the lone gunman theory behind JFK death.
=================================================

That’s hilarious coming from a 911 truther…

203. dmduncan - August 14, 2014

174. Curious Cadet – August 14, 2014

Didn’t work that well in STiD but it DID work — and very well — in ST.09.

ST.09 was not the product of reflected upon success with a previous ST movie, and therefore it was not the product of being removed from the inspiration that made the first movie so good.

Inspiration is being “in the moment.” Reflecting on the inspired separates you from the inspiration, because if you are reflecting on it you are not immersed in it, you are not feeling it.

204. Ahmed - August 14, 2014

Bob talking about the frustration of Latinos in Hollywood:

“It’s no accident that (Rodriguez) and I got together. I’ve been in the industry 10, 15 years. He’s been in it longer. It took us that long to even meet. It took us that long to even pitch each other something. Why is that?

“I think it’s because I’m going through the studio system learning my thing, trying not to raise hell, trying to (earn) my stripes, and he’s doing his thing,” … “And it takes a minute for it to occur to all of us to get together and raise hell. Finally, it’s all coming to the surface, and the frustration is justified and real.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/roberto-orci-talks-latino-underrepresentation-hollywood-article-1.1903421

205. Disinvited - August 14, 2014

# 171. Picard, Jean-Luc – August 14, 2014

” Not listening to Abrams regarding the marketing and branding of Trek beyond the 2009 movie was another ridiculous mistake made by CBS who seemed to make it incredibly difficult for anything to be done with Star Trek between 2009 and 2013. ” — Picard, Jean-Luc

There was nothing to listen to. As I broke it down here:

http://trekmovie.com/2014/08/07/orci-kurtzman-to-produce-vampire-chronicle-movies-for-universal/#comment-5229386

JJ’s demand for an unprecedented monopoly was a scapegoat to explain away his 2009 product licensing failures or at best a total red herring from his own “confusion” about what his surveys were telling him.

And I am absolutely flabbergasted that posters in these parts have actually convinced themselves in this that Disney is actually going to accommodate his whim by clearing the shelves of all SW I, II, III, IV, V and VI videos, games, merchandise, books, etc. just because someone somewhere might get confused and mistakenly not buy a Bad Robot version R2D2 toothbrush when VII is released.

206. Disinvited - August 14, 2014

#201. Cygnus-X1 – August 14, 2014

You have to remember its not just the words we discussed but their character sequences. If they pop up anywhere, it gets snagged.

As in:

ana|ysis gets flagged for ana|

207. NuFan - August 14, 2014

Star Trek 2 is better than Star Trek 1.

208. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

213. Cygnus-X1 – August 14, 2014

206. Disinvited – August 14, 2014

Half of my posts are now disappearing.

209. Disinvited - August 14, 2014

#208. Cygnus-X1 – August 14, 2014

Well I sure hope you heeded my caution about typing A Pascale’s full name and spinning in your chair. ;-)

Well there is a too many posts in a certain time frame [I think its about 2 hours] and the censorbot flags you as a spambot. I think it doesn’t clear until midnight. But that can’t be it because how did you post the message I’m responding to?

I know I’ve experienced a weird thing where the filter seems to be different between two or more of this site’s servers. When that happens it gets really weird. Messages keep appearing and reappearing. I see one numbering while another live poster sees things numbered different.

Since I know you’ve invoked the name of he who should not be named, I wonder if too many posts in that queue is what sets this off?

210. M J - August 14, 2014

This is great news from Bob !!!!!

211. M J - August 14, 2014

@202. Yanks, I agree completely.

212. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

Is this the same MJ who used to post here and was banned for sockpuppeting?

213. M J - August 14, 2014

Yep.

I apologize for my past actions — to you and everyone here. I offer no excuses.

I just went a bit nuts and I spiraled out of control in a negative way.

It won’t happen again.

That is all I am going to say on my past here…other than, again, I apologize to everyone, and it won’t happen again.

214. CmdrR - August 14, 2014

boborci — We really really would appreciate a shout out to Del Trame… (or just sneak in a visible BND on some read-out. We’ll freeze it and be thrilled. So will Del’s mom!)

135. boborci – August 13, 2014
116. thanks for reminding me. He’s going in!

215. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

#200 – “but when a viewer starts to question the characters’ behaviors (which, granted, not all viewers do)”

Surely, that is part of what Star Trek was supposed to be about – giving viewers pause to consider the merits or otherwise of one or more of the characters’ behaviours . Did Kirk do the right thing in saving the Nibiruns? What does the prime directive mean? The movie gave two interpretations – which is the more correct one in the particular instance told about in the film? Why should viewers not question, if they want to?

This notion of a “ploy” or “conceit” – is not the function of good drama to engage people’s emotions and intellects in varying degrees, to provide them with a reason to keep watching? I know that battles and explosions engage many, but clearly Star Trek has always been and is more than that.

There are those who seem cynical about the opening scenes of the first film (ST09), where George Kirk gives his life to save the crew, which included his very pregnant wife, and their son is born on the same day. I guess they could have had the widowed Winona get back to earth and have the baby there – that would be equally plausible/reasonable. However, the baby was on his way out the same day that Nero made his incursion and everything got speeded up. Therefore, little Jim was born just before his father died…I know, such a ploy, real tear-jerker stuff

Another story could be told about a very sick son lying in hospital on a ventilator. The family are distraught; the doctors say there is not much hope, however the son rallies a bit. Then, on the morning of his father’s birthday, he takes a turn for the worse and dies. More dramatic tear-jerker stuff – oh gee, what a coincidence that the son dies on his father’s birthday. Let’s slam this story for such conceits etc…

EXCEPT – my brother-in-law was on a ventilator and did die on his father’s birthday – FACT.

When I read people going on about movies like ST09 the way some have about that opening scene, I am reminded of my own family’s real life experiences.

216. Phil - August 14, 2014

@213. No worries…though you know as well as I there are a few here who will beat you about the head and shoulders forever over past indiscretions…forewarned is forearmed.

217. M J - August 14, 2014

Thanks Phil.

I deserve a beating, so I’ll take it like a man if it get’s nasty.

218. Michael Hall - August 14, 2014

Well if that really is you, I’m glad you’re back, and doing okay.

219. Son of Jello - August 14, 2014

201. Cygnus-X1 – August 14, 2014

It is a pretty random set of values when it comes to the posts being allowed thru or not. Hopefully it is on a case by case basis as swearing can get my posts deleted and other times swearing is fine. I think it is down to how tactfully you can express yourself

220. Keachick (Rose) - August 14, 2014

Perhaps it is the length of the post, although that has rarely been a problem in the past. Of course, there are some non-swear words that will automatically get a post deleted. This site has a quirk or two in this respect.

Just type in what you think could be the “offending” word and see if it appears here. Just carry on until you find the one that does not show here. I guess then it is a matter of spelling it incorrectly or using a synonym could solve the problem.

I had to do that once and I’m sure that one or two people wondered what I was doing but I did find the “offender”.

221. Captain Slow - August 14, 2014

First of all, congratulations to Bob and the gang for finishing the first draft. Anyone here who’s ever tried to write a script knows how hard that is.

Now, in regards to the discussion that’s been going on about theme, I agree with a lot of what Basement Blogger said about how STID had a much deeper story than ST09, which didn’t really have a theme at all (but was still awesome). I just don’t see how anyone can say that STID was shallow and had no theme. I wrote a long post once examining the theme and how it drove almost everything in the movie.

My interpretation is that the message of the movie is that no matter what, nothing good can come of revenge. And this is demonstrated in the heroes and the villains. The most important part of this is that Kirk and Spock are able to overcome their desire for revenge, but Khan and Marcus are not. Which I felt was a nice development from ST09 where they happily destroyed the Narada.

222. M J - August 14, 2014

@218

Thanks Michael !

223. Cygnus-X1 - August 14, 2014

I guess the “feeling” wasn’t “mutual” after all.

224. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

209. Disinvited – August 14, 2014
219. Son of Jello – August 14, 2014

Well there is a too many posts in a certain time frame [I think its about 2 hours] and the censorbot flags you as a spambot. I think it doesn’t clear until midnight. But that can’t be it because how did you post the message I’m responding to?

Good question.

I know I’ve experienced a weird thing where the filter seems to be different between two or more of this site’s servers. When that happens it gets really weird. Messages keep appearing and reappearing. I see one numbering while another live poster sees things numbered different.

This is exactly what happened to me. I posted a detailed to Keachick early this morning, then checked from work at lunch and it hadn’t posted. It still hadn’t posted when I got home in the evening, and then I started noticing that half of my posts wouldn’t go through.

Fortunately I’d saved it before posting it initially, and started editing it in various ways. I removed all reference to the BR-associated writer who frequents this site. There were no “four-letter” words, but I respelled “stoooopid” (this was not in reference to a person, but to the behavior of a character in a movie), and still it wouldn’t go through.

I’m going to keep trying to get that one through, because I think it’s actually a good summation of the problems in STID in response to a simple, but good and relevant question from Keachick about the writing on STID that got me thinking as I was responding about the approach of the aforementioned writer.

225. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

P.S. And I even sent an email to the “tips” asking about the issue, but haven’t received a response yet.

This is all weird and highly irregular.

Especially the block on the name “A-Pascale.”

226. M J - August 15, 2014

@223

Anthony’s return changes everything from my perspective. That is what’s new.

It’s not an accident that Bob is all of a sudden providing real movie info updates again on this site.

227. Valley Forge - August 15, 2014

I had an idea for the opening of, “Star Trek XIII”.

If the film started, instead of ended, with Kirk starting the entire “Space…the final frontier” line, followed by the cast and title, wouldn’t that be a great reference to, “The Original Series”?

Though I enjoy the films jumping right into the action, I do kind of miss the opening titles.

228. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

226. M J – August 15, 2014

It’s not an accident that Bob is all of a sudden providing real movie info updates again on this site.

He’s just finished his first draft. What has there been to “update” people on until now? He mentioned a while back that he was working on it.

229. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

I wonder if Anthony even knows how mean and nasty you were to people and what a menace you were to friendly communication and the sharing of information in general. Your comments over at that other site recently have been of the exact same, ad hominem attack variety that was your stock in trade here.

Frankly I’m shocked to see you back here. The first time that anyone but Phil or Red Dead Ryan starts agreeing with you, there will be no way to know if it’s a real person or just you again trying to propagate a deception about the persuasiveness and value of your own remarks.

230. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

And Anthony coming down so hard on other people recently while he lets you back in is equally disturbing. What sort of message does that send? That it’s better to have sinister intentions and be psychologically malicious toward people over a long period of time than to be thoughtlessly crass in one’s phrasing here and there.

231. Keachick (Rose) - August 15, 2014

I agree that it is hard to feel good about MJ’s return. I am sorry but that is how it is. All the sockpuppeting and twisting of words – I have had enough of that recently from IDIC – sickening, pathetic and not necessarily as harmless as one might think.

232. Keachick (Rose) - August 15, 2014

ie the twisting of words, the quoting out of context, the repetition of falsehoods with regard to what I have written previously – IDIC.

233. M J - August 15, 2014

Cygnus and Keachick,

Like I said, I apologize! That will not happen again. Choose to believe that or not, but I won’t be doing sock-puppeting ever again…lesson learned.

You seem to be wanting some explanation from me, so I will try. My trying to defend nuTrek got way out of hand. I lost my personal Kobayahsi Maru scenario — I tried to change the rules of the game to “win” against what I saw was a lot a negativity towards JJ, Orci, etc. That was a faulty proposition — people are entitled to their opinions, and are even entitled to be rather rude about it if they want..it’s not my place to “win” against those people.

Now I am back to just being a Star Trek fan with an opinion. If people don’t want to accept that, I can live with that. I certainly understand why in some people’s minds, I will never be welcomed back here. I get it! No hard feelings from my end to to either of you.

234. M J - August 15, 2014

“Frankly I’m shocked to see you back here. The first time that anyone but Phil or Red Dead Ryan starts agreeing with you, there will be no way to know if it’s a real person or just you again trying to propagate a deception about the persuasiveness and value of your own remarks.”

Those guys were never banned, and I’m sure, even though we frequently agreed on stuff in the past, that they would not in the least appreciate me or anyone else trying to use their identities.

You don’t like me and don’t want me back — and you certainly have some legitimate reasons to feel that way. But please don’t use that a strawman argument crux yourself to try to win arguments — that is where I went wrong.

235. Captain Slow - August 15, 2014

@ M J

The thing is, you didn’t just do it to defend the films. It was also to support your own opinion such as the aspect ratio argument every time Star Trek Continues released an episode.Because of that you alienated people who might have shared your views. I will however, give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’ve turned over a new leaf.

236. Son of Jello - August 15, 2014

224. Cygnus-X1 – August 15, 2014

I think the people who moderate this forum (machine or human) can be pretty lenient most of the time. My posts about Bob being a bronnie and my link to this picture

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/rock967online.com/files/2013/03/bronie.jpg&imgrefurl=http://rock967online.com/this-bronie-is-why-nobody-takes-your-hobby-seriously/&h=477&w=640&tbnid=e9UyXc95AsqFOM:&zoom=1&docid=0zDQ0aU-oakGdM&ei=mBbGU62QFcXLsASN0YH4DQ&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a

Was OK but anything posted about Zoe Saldana around the same time was not getting thru and it was no where near as direct as my comments about bob.Which makes me wonder weather the posts are being moderated on a more personal basis depending on who the post is about. With my bob comment having a link (above) to a guy with a dummy in his mouth and wearing a nappie holding a MLP is fine. But my comment’s about Zoe were being moderated to the point of posting becoming pointless as nothing was getting thru I don’t think this was a computer glitch and I found I was censoring myself to a point where what I wanted to say no longer existed.

I have been given a strong impression that some comments about people are more moderated than others to the point where some celebrities in articles are protected from negative comment’s (Zoe) while with others (bob) cops it big time.

Its a very contradictory system that’s been smelling a little fishy since I returned to this forum.

237. Michael Hall - August 15, 2014

Let go of the anger, folks. Really. As the tragic events of this week should remind us, life is just too damned short to take this stuff so seriously, particularly differences of opinion over the virtues of a TV/movie franchise. Trek can fun, thought-provoking, even inspirational–but at the end of the day it’s not worth a single moments’ rancor towards anyone.

Want to live long enough to witness the birth of that bright future Gene Roddenberry talked about? Be the change you want to see. We can’t buy that future, or make it; we can only embody it in ourselves. I don’t know all that much given the half century-plus I’ve been around, but I’m utterly convinced of that.

238. PaulB - August 15, 2014

#213 MJ: Welcome back! I think you’ve got the right attitude–don’t talk about the past–but I see you’ve already been dragged into it anyway. Don’t let them rehash it! You’re back, you apologized and promised your better behavior–’nuff said. (Of course, if you backslide, all bets are off.)

Now, let’s go pick on Takei for a while! HE deserves it!

Peace!

239. Disinvited - August 15, 2014

# 234. M J – August 15, 2014, #235. Captain Slow – August 15, 2014

I have to agree with Captain Slow.

If you had been singular in focus, I still don’t think I’d understand the extreme need you had to resort to socket-puppeting but it would have been a lot easier to forgive.

But you went off the rails on so many other topics and I for one seemed to be the focus of one of your unique forms of attacks: On the one hand telling Matt how much you liked me even if you disagreed with me and on the other sock-puppeted hand bashing me mercilessly for daring to not share or understand your views on topics that had nothing to do with Bad Robot’s Trek movies.

I still haven’t made up my mind about you and your return. It is a crutch that you could easily fall back on with a little more awareness of your limitations in your past attempt.

Meanwhile, I’m left a little skittish. Since your return, every time I detect a little snark in posters I haven’t noticed contributing since your absence, I’m left wondering “Is MJ just being more clever about being detected this time? Is he really sorry or just sorry he got caught?’

Also, a little more contrition like maybe avoiding the topic all together while posting on your new outlets would make you seem more sincere:

“…An+hony Pascale left after not being able to handle all of the bickering of that unruly crowd of posters over there.” — MJ

Now, I ask you MJ, what evidence did you have in posting that this month on trekcore that this was in anyway true and isn’t it also true that you were a major part of that “unruly crowd of posters” when A Pascale was here?

240. crazydaystrom - August 15, 2014

233. M J
“I tried to change the rules of the game to “win” against what I saw was a lot a negativity towards JJ, Orci, etc.”

That doesn’t explain your tearing into me about something that had nothing to do with Star Trek. It was unreasonable, unintelligent and immature. Fairly sadistic just because you could get away with it. smh

241. TUP - August 15, 2014

Picard – you make a great point about Star Wars. Like I said too, when the new Wars was announced, the fandom waited on pins & needles hoping for the announcement of the original cast with their ages, weights etc. In Star Trek the idea of Shatner or Stewart returning is laughed at with rolling eyes. Why the contradiction?

Ofcourse, Star Wars has always been treated with more respect. Partly Trek has itself to blame.

Its another great contrradiction that the Kelvin was realised so well inside & out and yet the Enterprise looked like it was designed by Apple. There really was also no good reason to make it so much larger than the original. What difference did that make to the story? none. They just wanted it to be “bigger” rather than respect the concept of the original ship.

My caveat to the that is, rather than use the Kelvin, they could have used the Enterprise we know in the opening and destroyed it. If I recall correctly, that idea was considered by the writers and dismissed for some reason ( BobOrci??), But imagine the film opened with the camera sweeping over the hull of the original 1701. Inside, we get a modern update on the original bridge. Wow would that have been the coolest thing ever. Captain Robert April commanding.

Paramount would have received a ton of free PR with clips of the inside and out of the original ship. Punching up the scene so that the ship performs far beyond its design (hinting at the legendary status it *would* have acheieved) and perhaps an almost knowing and yet subtle stroking of the chair by Kirk just before its destruction. Thats how you start a movie. Shocking. And it really tells the viewers that Nero screwed everything up.

The fact Pike would later become Captain of the new Enterprise (and to be honest I have no issue with the ship from that moment on being the Enterprise-A, that one extra letter doesnt disturb me at all and it allows them to not only stick within a certain bit of canon, but to use the E-A design as a guide so rather than the iBridge, we get a modern update on the Trek VI bridge).

I’ve never understood the things the writers chose to stroke themselves over when it comes to canon and the opportunities they missed, big time.

And I bring this all back to my firm belief that the fandom wasnt clammoring for NEW characters in OLD Trek. They were clammoring for OLD Trek in a NEW world. If there was technology to give us a 35 year old Shatner and Nimoy et al with new effects etc, thats what the fans wanted. So this idea that they had to change the characters is laughable. If the entire hook of the new films is that we get to see young Kirk, young Spock etc, then show us that. What we have are NEW and DIFFERENT characters called Kirk & Spock and I think thats where some longtime fans were turned off.

As for attracting a new, broad audience, they would show up for anything that was good. Write a great story and punch up the action later rather than writing a bunch of big bang set pieces and trying to wrap a story around it later. This isnt Transformers.

242. TUP - August 15, 2014

@221 – No doubt the writers had a story. it just wasnt a very good one. It was sort of a cliche in that Marcus was George Bush, Klingons were terrorists..I dont know who Khan was supposed to be, Hamas? Misunderstood (ugh).

I think they neglected the characters in favour of the story they wanted to tell, fitting the characters into that instead of having a story flow organically from the characters. For example, Khan was not the Khan we all know, not even close. They completely changed him to fit into the story they were trying to tell about how the bad guys arent always that bad and are maybe just misunderstood and do bad things when they really bad guys (ie. US government) start sticking their nose in and manipulating them. if the government wasn’t so bad, then Tim Mcvie wouldnt have blown up the building in OK, so as bad as his action was, it was more the governments fault. uh huh. Lame. And the wrong perspective.

Marcus was far more interesting then Khan and his perspective had merit. It was weird that they chose to examine the misunderstood perspective of Khan who *was* a brutal dictator and make Marcus one dimensional. Weller also was far more interesting to watch than Cumberbatch (not saying he’s a better actor, just more interesting with the material both had here).

Presenting Kirk as the pawn between Pike’s view of Star Fleet and Marcus’ would have been far more interesting. Remember, Pike also had a view of Star Fleet that wasnt really accurate (peacekeeping armada). As a top Admiral, thats what he wanted Star Fleet to be. That was his influence. Marcus saw it as something else. That contrast was interesting. Kirk should have been played between that with both acting as potential father figures. Marcus’ position should have tempted Kirk (to the Dark Side). The lesson Kirk ultimately learns (when Pike, not Kirk sacrifices himself at the end) would be that Pike’s way *was* the better way, but that peace required sacrifice, leadership required a willingness to accept death. Ofcourse, this is all harkens back to the Kobiyashi Maru which these writers also screwed up (completing changing it from how it was explained in WoK and taking away Kirk’s cleverness and evidence of tactical genius).

*sigh*

243. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@ 230. Cygnus-X1 – August 15, 2014

“And Anthony coming down so hard on other people recently while he lets you back in is equally disturbing. What sort of message does that send?”

Well, it is clear that Anthony is steering the site back to its original mission, to promote Abrams-Trek.

In less than two weeks, he gave warning to three people, coincidentally with anti-NuTrek views, for not respecting others. Then he made that long comment claiming that Abrams saved Trek & now he brought back the biggest NuTrek attack machine!

Obviously, this is his site but he needs to be less biased & apply the rules to everyone, not just the ones who have different views than him.

As for MJ, I seen his posts in two other sites & there was no change from that combative attitude that he showed here. Guess we will wait & see.

244. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@226. M J – August 15, 2014

“It’s not an accident that Bob is all of a sudden providing real movie info updates again on this site.”

Back to your theory, the one you posted on the other site, that trekmovie is becoming irrelevant & not getting any news from the producers & you encouraged people to go to other sites ?

Bob was coming here almost every week & more frequently after the story broke about him taking over from Abrams. While at the other site, the homepage was filled with DVD/Blu-ray release info, Trekmovie posted news stories on a regular basis.

But I can see why you feel that way after the return of AP!!!

245. michaelknaepen - August 15, 2014

@boborci

thank you for answering. since you’re in command, you’re going to be responsible. JJ, via the staff, lied twice to the established fandom.
It made me feel that the fans are a bunch of weirdoes that need to be silenced in order not to “damage” the project / business.

TY

246. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

233. M J – August 15, 2014

Cygnus and Keachick, Like I said, I apologize! That will not happen again. Choose to believe that or not, but I won’t be doing sock-puppeting ever again…lesson learned.

Yeah, “lesson learned” after you’d been getting away with it for half a year and finally got caught.

You seem to be wanting some explanation from me, so I will try.

No, I really don’t want any kind of an explanation from you. The last time that it was brought to our attention here, just a few weeks ago, you were the same old menace, personally attacking posters at another site. And I’ve been alive long enough to know that people generally don’t change their fundamental character and never so quickly. Your M.O. here before you got kicked out was to misrepresent the comments of other posters in order to foment ill-will amongst them for your own purposes. And it’s become something of a joke around here in the months since—all of your apology-demands and other antics.

And, of course, on top of all that was the massive-scale deception of creating 8 or more false identities for the purposes of trying to bully, silence and run off the people whose opinions you didn’t share. Even going to the lengths of having fake “personalities” for each of your false identities whom you would have occasionally quibbling and disagreeing with each other in order to make your big lie seem more believable—and it totally worked, that’s the most disturbing part.

I’m not going to mince words here. I’m not sure if you’re clinically a sociopath—though your pattern of manipulation and saying whatever you think you need to say in order to get what you want suggests to me that you might well be—but I am sure that you are a dishonest, mean-spirited person and I am not interested in anything that you have to say.

247. BringBackKirkPrime - August 15, 2014

I would love to see Kirk Prime in this movie–it would be a great nod to the 50th. If it’s just the current versions of the characters, then this movie is just going to be an ordinary movie and nothing special.

The 50th should be special.

See Doctor Who.

They did it right. I expect more from Trek than Doctor Who, and they did a hell of a job with Doctor Who.

248. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

And, already it’s beginning…

234. M J – August 15, 2014

“Frankly I’m shocked to see you back here. The first time that anyone but Phil or Red Dead Ryan starts agreeing with you, there will be no way to know if it’s a real person or just you again trying to propagate a deception about the persuasiveness and value of your own remarks.”

Those guys were never banned, and I’m sure, even though we frequently agreed on stuff in the past, that they would not in the least appreciate me or anyone else trying to use their identities.

You don’t like me and don’t want me back — and you certainly have some legitimate reasons to feel that way. But please don’t use that a strawman argument crux yourself to try to win arguments — that is where I went wrong.

I’m not making any straw man argument.

Phil and Red Dead Ryan were the only people who expressed wanting you back after you were banned. If they agree with you, it won’t be any mystery. It’s if other people start joining your posse and piling on, especially if they’re people who don’t post often or ever, that we won’t know if they’re actually you.

Simply put, by bringing you back, Anthony is undermining the credibility and respectability of his own site. And, I’m afraid that what Ahmed says at #243 occurred to me as well:

Well, it is clear that Anthony is steering the site back to its original mission, to promote Abrams-Trek.

In less than two weeks, he gave warning to three people, coincidentally with anti-NuTrek views, for not respecting others. Then he made that long comment claiming that Abrams saved Trek & now he brought back the biggest NuTrek attack machine!

There’s no good reason to bring you back other than to set you loose to attack people who criticize the BR movies. This site had become so much more civilized and pleasant after you were banned. I mean, the difference was night and day. Bringing you back after now, even as you’ve continued your nasty old ways at other sites, not to mention bad-mouthing this site, makes no sense if the goal is to promote friendly discussion and sharing of ideas and information (centered around Trek, of course.)

So, I’m gonna go ahead and put an email up for anyone else who wants to stay in touch if this trend continues and I suddenly disappear: Cygnus-X3@hotmail.com

249. M J - August 15, 2014

@238 “#213 MJ: Welcome back! I think you’ve got the right attitude–don’t talk about the past–but I see you’ve already been dragged into it anyway. Don’t let them rehash it! You’re back, you apologized and promised your better behavior–’nuff said. (Of course, if you backslide, all bets are off.)”

Thanks PaulB. That’s exactly what I am going to do.

@Disinvinted @Crazydaystrom @Ahmed @Captain Slow

You all bring up some good points. Again, my apologies to all of you.

@Cygnus X-1. Keep the mega-posts coming. I deserve it.

@Michael Hall — thanks again, Michael.

250. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

I’ll do as I please.

And “deserve” has nothing to do with it.

251. M J - August 15, 2014

@250. No problem

Question: What is wrong with Anthony Pascale returning the site to being a more positive web site that focuses on the new movies, and who thus gets us all exclusives and other inside information from the flims?

That is what this site always was until Anthony started missing large periods of time starting in 2010, and then was out for over a year this last time.

I’ll agree with Ahmed that Trekcore has it’s limitations, but I don’t see the constant level of negativity towards the new movies there, or anywhere else on the web for that matter, that I see hear when Anthony is not around to supervise.

252. Oscar - August 15, 2014

Beh, who needs nu trek 3 ,we have the guardians of the Galaxy and their sense of wonder…Marvel universe is the future and its succesful is not a secret: just respect the characters and fans and you’ll make a great film…You’ll make the guardians of the galaxy…
NuTrek lacks of sense of wonder and talent. That is wy no future for it.

Marvel’ space branch is the future, neither nu trek nor STAR WARS, Marvel’s space branch…tv shows included: a nova corps the series in a couple of years.
Wait and see.
Warlock, Kree, Skrulls, eternals, inhumans,, nova corps, chitauri, the Celestials,The guardians, the badoon, etc, etc, developed in a cinematic/tv universe…wow
Nu Trek is not necessary. Paramount knows it, because of it, Ninja Turtles 2 is a high priority and nu trek 3, nope.

253. Tom - August 15, 2014

MJ’s back and everyome(mostly) forgives!
Now with a new commisioner we can forgive Pete Rose and get him in the Hall of Fame

254. Mike Barnett - August 15, 2014

251. Oscar

If you feel that way then why are you here?

255. TUP - August 15, 2014

@247 – Agreed. And Stewart too. In fact, I would ask Paramount for a few bucks for casting since it’s the 50th Anni and get whomever I need. Since Riker and Troi left the E-D, you dont need them. Data was killed. Dont need him either. You could have the E-D in the film with virtually no other TNG cast. I wouldnt complain if they used Spiner and Dorn though.

I dont see a need for any other TOS cast members either other than Nimoy & Shatner.

256. Silvereyes - August 15, 2014

MJ

People need to get a grip on perspective. So MJ made mistakes and went a little ballistic sometimes, but he admitted his wrongdoings and apologized. What more do you want? He did questionable things on an online forum, so what? it’s not like he slept with your mother or killed your dog!

Being vindictive in this context is worse…

Besides, wasn’t he one of the first to predict that Harrison was in fact Khan?

257. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@255. Silvereyes

Are you # 9 ?

258. M J - August 15, 2014

@256.

So I am going to be allowed back here, and withing 24 hours, I start by stealing Silvereye’s ID, with Anthony and Matt probably watching my every step???

Even if I was as Machiavellian as some of you think I am, you should all know that I would never do something so obviously stupid as that. Come on, man, give me some credit for not being a moron who wants to get banned again ASAP.

259. Harry Ballz - August 15, 2014

COME ON EVERYBODY, GROUP HUG!

:>)

260. Keachick (Rose) - August 15, 2014

Unfortunately, Cygnus has pretty well summed up how I feel as well in his post #246. MJ and his sockpuppets did not just twist the words of people who did not like nuTrek, he did it to others, like me, those who have no real problem with these new films. It was often about topics that had little, if anything, to do with Star Trek. MJ moniker would play the “friend” while his other aliases would demean, twist words and meaning and make fun of what a poster had written.

You destroyed my trust, MJ. You used MJ to play at being a nice person, while you used your other aliases to undermine and twist. Sometimes I felt like I was the only one you did this to, but it seems that others have also suffered because of your behaviour. That makes you one sick bastard.

What is worse, the administration here allowed this unconscionable behaviour to continue. Perhaps it was due to the lack of proper security and adequate verification concerning everyone who posts here – I don’t know, however it was not until Matt Wright took over, that your ruse was apparently discovered and you were banned, along with all those sockpuppets.

I know that this is past history and I need to let it go, for my sake. However, this is the first time I have been able to say to MJ just how I felt when I found out these other posters were you, MJ, all along. You had me in tears sometimes way back then and I am a bit tearful now. I take comfort in the notion that allowing tears to flow (if they must) can be very healing…

261. M J - August 15, 2014

@259.

Thanks, Keachick, I get it. And I apologize for hurting you.

262. Valley Forge - August 15, 2014

@247. BringBackKirkPrime

I’m not sure that too many people like that idea. It wouldn’t make sense story-wise and those behind the writing-off of the character wouldn’t like that. However, bringing in future alternate reality Kirk (William Shatner, with blue contact lenses) would be something that people may get behind.

The Prime Kirk has passed on and the writers of his death wanted him to go through the entire human cycle of life and death. Bringing him back would take away from that.

263. Keachick (Rose) - August 15, 2014

#243 – Ahmed – Stop stirring.

The people who have received warnings have been me, Keachick, IDIC, and others. As you well know I am more pro nu-Trek films than anti, yet AP saw fit to warn me in the same way that he warned IDIC who is clearly anti-nuTrek films. Your statement is not valid. AP also told all who wrote about “poo” to cease and that included me.

If this site was so pro nuTrek to the point where it excluded all postings that presented opposing views, then why are you, TUP, Cygnus -X1, Oscar still able to post here?

264. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@257. M J

lol,

Perhaps you created that identity a long time ago, kept it as a backup for times like now :-)

btw, check the new Sean Bean series on TNT “Legends”, about an undercover FBI agent with multiple identities. The agent totally immerses himself in the new personas to a point where he begin to question his own real identity. Sounds Intriguing, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivAbsRvTAso

265. M J - August 15, 2014

@Valley Forge @Keachick

To show folks I am committed to be more positive, I hereby pledge that I will NEVER saying anything negative about William Shatner ever again.

And I commend the Shat for not responding to all of Takei’s nastiness of late.

@Silivereyes. Thanks, man, for the second chance with you.

266. M J - August 15, 2014

@264

LOL. Kind of like a “Safe House” if things fell apart for me like they did?

I have set my DVR for Legends. Love Sean Bean. The show seems to be getting buzz.

I was really disappointed how Falling Skies kind of went completely lame this season. I actually stopped watching it after three episodes. The whole Hiltler Youth analogy and the fast growing hybrid powered superchild/woman were just dumb-ass.

267. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@262. Keachick (Rose)

I was talking specifically about three people, I am not Herbert, Harry Ballz & El Chup.

“Your statement is not valid. AP also told all who wrote about “poo” to cease and that included me.”

He warned El Chup first & only after I pointed out that you also used the same language that he gave you warring as well.

268. Son of Jello - August 15, 2014

259. Keachick (Rose) – August 15, 2014

Nicely expressed Keachick :)

269. Valley Forge - August 15, 2014

@264. M J

Don’t get me wrong. The Prime James T. Kirk is my favorite character. I just am not big on the idea of bring another Prime character into the alternate reality. Spock being separated from his friends and such is an example. You can’t help, but feel bad, for him.

William Shatner as a future alternate reality James T. Kirk, however, could be a good way to do it, though, he’d have to wear blue contact lenses for the role.

270. M J - August 15, 2014

@263

“The people who have received warnings have been me, Keachick, IDIC, and others. As you well know I am more pro nu-Trek films than anti, yet AP saw fit to warn me in the same way that he warned IDIC who is clearly anti-nuTrek films. Your statement is not valid. AP also told all who wrote about “poo” to cease and that included me.”

This seems completely contrary to Cygnus’s claim about the site being so incredibly civil since I was not participating…just saying….

271. M J - August 15, 2014

@ Son of Jello,

Dude, my apologies go out to you as well. Sorry!!!

272. Silvereyes - August 15, 2014

263 Ahmed

Silvereyes is not MJ. It’s me, a real person who’s been on here since 2007 or so… Connected to the Great Harry Ballz on LinkedIn (so there, my reality is absolutely validated!)

Now drop it…

273. NuFan - August 15, 2014

243.

Well, that’s funny. I always thought the mission of a site called trekmovie.com was to bring back the old universe and get rid of the young fans before it’s too late.

274. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@ 268. M J – August 15, 2014

“This seems completely contrary to Cygnus’s claim about the site being so incredibly civil since I was not participating…just saying….”

Yes, you missed the GREAT CIVIL WAR between the various aliases of me, Keachick, Cygnus-X1 & the rest .. /S

You just can’t help yourself, can you?

275. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@270. Silvereyes

Sure.

But sometime it is hard to be certain when in the past “Dave H” & “K-7″ gave us their “biographical history” as well!

276. dmduncan - August 15, 2014

A toast to future Trek, with Bob at the conn! May the way ahead be clear! And the wind, sir, at your back!

277. M J - August 15, 2014

@272

Ahmed, LOL. Let’s just not pretend that when I left, all of you were sitting in that famous Ewok campfire scene, everyone being happy and together as one and celebrating the end of MJ Palpatine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBrLHMCTDAA

:-))

PS: Thanks for the link on Legends. I have set my DVR.

PS2: I gave up on Falling Skies after Ep 3 this year…the show really got silly and is a shadow of it’s former self.

278. dmduncan - August 15, 2014

Welcome back, MJ! I presume you’ve come alone? ;-)

279. Keachick (Rose) - August 15, 2014

Ahmed – And I was talking about myself, along with others, who have been warned within the last few weeks. AP told all commenters to cease with the “poo” comments. He did not name names in his blanket warning to the site. For the record, it was El Chup who first talked about feces, which was inappropriate. Unfortunately, I brought up a reference to a can of worms – not good of me. The fact is that the present moderator sought to shut all of this down, no matter who was writing it.

The fact/truth is that Harry Ballz and I am not Herbert have been over the top with their negative comments and I think that Harry Ballz has even acknowledged that he had gone too far. The moderator was not warning these other posters, as well as me, not for being either pro and anti nuTrek, but because we have taken our comments too far – as in “stunk up the place”, the “poo” comments, “can of smelly worms”. On balance, AP was right and I apologize for my “smelly worms” comment.

Ahmed – Do not twist the truth of why these warnings were given.

280. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@277. M J

“PS: Thanks for the link on Legends. I have set my DVR.”

You are welcome, enjoy the show :)

I stopped watching Falling Skies this season, it was just awful.

There are many new shows this summer to choose from. If you looking for shut your brain off & have fun type of show, then watch “Under the Dome” or “Matador”. Or if you are in a crappy mood & looking for depressing show where people cry all the time or do crazy stuff for no reason, watch the new Lindelof show “The Leftovers”!

281. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@279. Keachick (Rose)

“AP told all commenters to cease with the “poo” comments. He did not name names in his blanket warning to the site…. The fact is that the present moderator sought to shut all of this down, no matter who was writing it.”

Here is the sequence of that exchange in “Pegg: It Makes ‘Perfect Sense’ For Orci To Direct Next Star Trek” thread:

16. El Chup
20. Keachick (Rose)
23. El Chup
24. Keachick (Rose)
28. Keachick (Rose)

And then, this

29. Anthony Pascale – August 11, 2014

“warning to Chup
that kind of language and attack just isn’t the type of thing to do here.”

The warning was giving just to El Chup, not you.

After that

“31. Ahmed – August 11, 2014

@29. Anthony Pascale –

“warning to Chup
that kind of language and attack just isn’t the type of thing to do here.”

Just out of curiosity, what about this ?”

And at last

32. Anthony Pascale – August 11, 2014

282. Al - August 15, 2014

Some may not like it…but this 3rd film should star a the captains from all the series..bring them all together for a mission.

283. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@279. Keachick (Rose)

My response to you is gone or it is stuck in the moderation queue !

But in any case, go to the Simon Pegg thread & see the exchange between you & El Chup.

284. Valley Forge - August 15, 2014

@281. Al

That wouldn’t work. Unless it showed some threat battle Archer and then show it battling Kirk (before his death) and then Picard, Sisko and then Janeway. Then, it moves to the alternate reality and battles new Kirk.

Otherwise, I wouldn’t think that it would work, story-wise.

285. crazydaystrom - August 15, 2014

249. M J
“@Disinvinted @Crazydaystrom @Ahmed @Captain Slow

You all bring up some good points. Again, my apologies to all of you.”

Apologies excepted with the exact amount of sincerity they were given. Not one iota more.

286. Harry Ballz - August 15, 2014

@272

Silvereyes IS who he says he is. He is a GREAT guy. Please accept him.

YO, DMDUNCAN, DOES YOUR EMAIL HAVE “COMCAST” IN IT?

287. Ahmed - August 15, 2014

@285. Harry Ballz

Thanks, Harry.

288. dmduncan - August 15, 2014

285. Harry Ballz – August 15, 2014

It does indeed, Mr. Ballz!

289. Red Dead Ryan - August 15, 2014

#243. Ahmed,

“Well, it is clear that Anthony is steering the site back to its original mission, to promote Abrams-Trek.

In less than two weeks, he gave warning to three people, coincidentally with anti-NuTrek views, for not respecting others. Then he made that long comment claiming that Abrams saved Trek & now he brought back the biggest NuTrek attack machine!”

Okay, here are the facts. “Star Trek: Nemesis” bombed at the box office in 2002. The ratings for both “Star Trek: Voyager” and “Star Trek: Enterprise” went on a downward path as the seasons went by. Trek merchandise wasn’t selling nearly as well as it did during the eighties and early to late nineties.

Paramount and CBS understood the numbers. “Enterprise” didn’t get a fifth season, and “Nemesis” was the final TNG movie.

Paramount and CBS agreed to reboot the franchise. They brought in J.J Abrams and Bob Orci, who delivered brilliantly with “Star Trek”, a movie that not only appealed to old time Trekkies like myself, but brought in new fans.

“Star Trek Into Darkness”, while not quite as good as it’s predecessor, set new Trek box office records as the highest-grossing movie in the franchise.

So, yes, Abrams did save the Trek franchise from obscurity. You may not like the movies, but you have to admit that they have been financially successful to keep new movies being made, perhaps (at least down the road) movies that may be more to your taste.

Also, this site was founded shortly after the announcement of the reboot back in 2006. This site naturally follows developments in regards to the reboot movies, but also covers a lot of non-reboot, or prime universe canon stuff, as well.

And I would like to welcome MJ back to the site.

As the warden from the “Shawshank Redemption” prison once said:

“The place wasn’t the same without you!” :-)

290. Disinvited - August 15, 2014

# 258. M J – August 15, 2014

“Come on, man, give me some credit for not being a moron who wants to get banned again ASAP.” — M J

I believe in any 12 step recovery program that it isn’t merely enough to profess not to do moronic things again, you have to lay bare and confess the exact moronic thing that you did that caused you to hit rock bottom.

291. Jonboc - August 15, 2014

MJ is back! Well well well. Good to see you. You know, I always suspected you were behind the usual brigade that always showed up to rally your cause. LOTS of clues, and it was annoying as hell. But when your discussions got away from the usual tit- for-tat with regulars, I actually enjoyed your posts…when it was 3 pages of arguing with Keachick or anyone else, I just scrolled on by. Sounds like you’re trying to mend some fences and I really hope your intentions and apologies are sincere. I look forward to some good discussion about Trek 3. Welcome back!

292. Phil - August 15, 2014

@289. Already has. I’m not needing a daily posting of the sin list, and I doubt most others are no longer interested in the tale, either.

293. Keachick (Rose) - August 15, 2014

#282 – Well, I have read the posts on the Simon Pegg thread. I am not sure what point you could make that has not already been made.

Anthony gave us (ie all posters) a warning about not discussing that particular subject again. The fact that AP called out El Chup first is because he used the language first. I suspect that post timing had something to do with Anthony not calling me out as well, which he did later when it was pointed to him.

The exchange is over and it is time to move on. In fact, I thought everyone had done so.

294. Commodore Adams - August 15, 2014

Ummm..whatever happened to “Bob Orci just told me they’ve had a meeting with CBS to revive @StarTrek on TV…This made me v excited” – Joe Michalczuk, Oct 2013.

Im actually glad that JJ/Bad Robot never got to control all merchandising for Star Trek. Movies, TV show, Games, Comics all in alternate timeline, um yea no. How can you stop making Shatner or Nimoy merchandising infavor of ONLY the new stuff? It would not have been competing with itself, it would have been making money side by side. Im glad CBS has TV rights, it might protect Star Trek in a way that if a new TV does emerge it might be in the style and universe we all know and love, while Paramount keeps plodding along with NuTrek. I think JJ’s idea of multi platform media/merchandising is better suited to Star Wars, it just is, and I think it will work extremely well for Star Wars. For Star Trek, it just didn’t feel right.

Since ENT ended everyone from Jonathan Frakes, William Shatner, Michael Dorn, Ron Moore (LOVE HIS WORK), Brannon Braga, Bryan Fuller, Bryan Singer, JJ, and Bob Orci have all been interested in making a new trek.

In my opinion I think with Ron Moore, Bryan Fuller, and Bryan Singer teamed up would make a killer Star Trek series. Ive always like Braga, Coto, Piller, and Behr, but Moore, Fuller, and Singer are the creators, producers, and writers for the job.

295. Hugh Hoyland - August 15, 2014

I’m not into the “Nu Trek vs “Old Trek” battle, its all Trek to me. I’m just glad that the franchise was brought back from the dead with two very well done movies that are entertaining as heck IMO.

Trek is alive [on the big screen that is, hopefully on T.V. soon to] so lets sit back and anticipate “Trek 3″. And hopefully Bob will share some of the details about the story and production as time goes by. :]

296. Commodore Adams - August 15, 2014

To those of you who shall remain unnamed, stop filling up these articles with posts of your petty bickering! There are about 4 or 5 of you…half of you start the fire, the other half stoke the fire. Keep a mussel on it! I’ve learned to censor myself online, its a challenge…still, its difficult, but it can be done and its for the better. I type out things in anger or frustration, read it, and say, shit I can’t post this, I delete it and move on.

I want to read responses with substance, opinions I agree with, and perspectives different than mine, not high school drama from I am assuming people older than 35 going on 13?

Nausicaan: “Coward. Like all Starfleet. You talk and you talk but you have no guramba.”

297. Commodore Adams - August 15, 2014

@ 294. Hugh Hoyland

I agree, Im not into the nu trek vs old trek battle, but I think..im almost certain that people are entitled to have preferences, no? I wouldn’t spend extra money on the steelbook editions of the new movies if I didn’t like nuTrek, but I do have a preference, and its highbrow intelligence, something NuTrek does not provide or fulfill. Entertaining, yes, visually satisfying, without question, but morally and ethically fulfilling…not even a quarter tank, and that is what gives me the most joy, satisfaction, and fulfilment when it comes to Star Trek. What am I watching right now as I type? TNG on blu-ray. NuTrek is flashy and gaudy, something Trek never was. Im just saying I want Moore and other veterans who have matured over the years to head up a new TV show. Moore was young when he did TNG, now with Battlestar under his sleeve, he (like Riker as Diana said) is more seasoned. And I think with the additional talents of Fuller and Singer could really give us something solid and highbrow.

171, 179. Picard, Jean-Luc – August 14, 2014
and
143. Basement Blogger
also expressed it well.

298. Cygnus-X1 - August 15, 2014

270. M J – August 15, 2014

This seems completely contrary to Cygnus’s claim about the site being so incredibly civil since I was not participating…just saying….

Oh, are you “just saying?”

The difference was that when every other person at this site has a squabble with someone, it’s always limited to two people, or three at most. And it’s very easy to avoid. We can simply scroll past the squabble and it’s not all that inconvenient.

Whereas you make it impossible to ignore the squabble because you misrepresent and mischaracterize what other people say in order to instigate fights between people. This practice of yours makes it difficult to have friendly discussions; not only because you manipulate people into resenting other people by your tactic misquoting, misrepresenting and mischaracterizing what your target says, but because your target then has to correct the record in order to proceed with the discussion that they’re trying to have.

In short, your tactics leave people with two choices: using myself as an example—either ignore you and have my words misquoted and misrepresented so that people get the wrong idea about what I really said and meant; or get sucked into having to engage you in argument in order to finally correct the record. And when that process is over, you simply start the whole process over with another misrepresentation of my words or on another person.

Some examples from memory: You somehow convinced Marja, whom I am friendly with, that I was demeaning women. This got her feeling resentful, which led her to push back and make remarks that caused me to feel offended, and round and round, while you just incited the whole thing. Eventually I was able to convince Marja that I have nothing but respect for her and I didn’t say anything that was intended to sound demeaning, but it took an awfully long time to get to that point. And of course, it was a total waste of time.

Another example is when you twisted a comment by Dom, who had made reference to “death threats” by crazy fans over…Spock’s death in TWOK, I think it was. You somehow managed to twist that innocuous comment into meaning that Dom was accusing you or one of your 8 aliases of making death threats. You and your aliases then all piled on Dom for 4 days demanding an apology from him until eventually he gave in. And that was the last that we saw of Dom for several months. Actually, here’s that incident: http://trekmovie.com/2014/02/09/star-trek-continues-releases-second-episode-lolani/

Nobody else here perpetrates psychological warfare on people, which is what you do. So, yes, compared to you it’s been very civil here in your absence. You may have these other people fooled, but I’m not buying your little reform act for a second. You’ve been up to your same old routine at other sites in the time since you were banned from here. The notion that you’ve suddenly changed as a person overnight is ludicrous.

But, if you want to demonstrate a gesture of good will, I’ll give you an opportunity: Ignore my posts. Do not address me. Do not engage me in discussion. Pretend that I don’t exist. And I will happily do the same in return.

Because, frankly, nothing that you say is going to be worth the time and effort that it takes me to untwist your twisting of my words. Deal?

299. Disinvited - August 16, 2014

# 291. Phil – August 15, 2014

“Already has.” — Phil

No he hasn’t. And I wasn’t asking him to list all his sins.

It should be obvious to all who read my posts that I’ve had to deal with my share of addicts in my personal family tree.

This isn’t about me seeking an opportunity to personally flog MJ. This is about him realizing that he’s on a road of recovery and that he’s going to have to work at least as hard to get out of the hole he dug for himself in his aberrant behavior as he did in digging the hole in the first place. And to start down that recovery road, he has to know when and where he hit rock bottom. Publicly acknowledging it helps him in recovery because it becomes real for him when he stares it in the face in that stark uncomfortable fashion.

Ultimately, allowing MJ back into these forums where there were plenty of enablers for his bad behavior(s) prior to his hitting bottom and many apparently more than willing to take him down that enabling road again, isn’t good for MJ or his recovery. Especially if his recovery is too much of a downer to be allowed to unfold in these very forums were his very real problem was allowed to fester and grow.

I am rather appalled that the fandom Bjo Trimble introduced me to in the 1970s, one that always tried to help seems to have evaporated to be replaced by one that is all about the party and avoiding the “downer” of anything that might actually help one of our own to tread the straight and narrow.

It is quite possible that I am too close to this in my personal life to be reading this room accurately so I am only going to discuss my feelings rather than categorically assert something as so, but it feels to me as if the vast majority are only willing to weep at the untimely ends of addicts and not interested in anything that might actually prevent it.

In saying that, I seem to be personally realizing some very interesting emotions at this moment in regards to being a victim of bullying. I don’t think I can quite find the words but it occurs to me that it would be nice if trekmovie instead of the one #chat chain had ones for various recoveries.

300. Captain Slow - August 16, 2014

@ 293 Commodore Adams

“Ummm..whatever happened to “Bob Orci just told me they’ve had a meeting with CBS to revive @StarTrek on TV…This made me v excited” – Joe Michalczuk, Oct 2013.”

I believe J.J. has said twice that CBS isn’t interested in a new Star Trek series. Meanwhile, a new Star Wars cartoon comes out, Marvel has Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D, and DC has Gotham. So they’re letting Star Trek be completely overtaken by the competition. Joseph Mallozzi and Paul Mullie of Stargate are also busy working on a new sci-fi space-opera series. So come on CBS, give us more Star Trek! How hard can it be?

301. JRT! - August 16, 2014

Guardians was a fun movie. S’all.

J-R!

302. Jonboc - August 16, 2014

#299. “So come on CBS, give us more Star Trek! How hard can it be?”

To be fair, they were burned pretty good by Enterprise…which wasn’t a bad show. The failure of Enterprise, along with Nemesis tanking was the writing on the wall that the numbers needed to make Trek viable just wasn’t there. Audiences were tired of it, and understandably so. After all, it had been almost 20 years of the same o-same o. Trek needed to prove it was still relevant, and Bad Robot did just that. Yes, it needs to come back, but I’m sorry TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise fans, it can’t resemble any of those. If a new Trek series has any of those old show runners at the helm, it’s toast…that’s not what present day audiences want to see. Trek has evolved once again, there is a new audience ready to accept it, and that’s a good thing.

303. Captain Slow - August 16, 2014

@ 301 Jonboc

“I’m sorry TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise fans, it can’t resemble any of those. If a new Trek series has any of those old show runners at the helm, it’s toast”

I completely agree. What most people I see who want the Prime universe back actually seem to want is TNG season 8 or ENT season 5. There is just no way that’s possible, and to many that’s not even remotely interesting.

What I think is needed is to go back to the spirit of The Original Series. Have a small group of interesting characters going out and having adventures while finding cool stuff.

Some people have suggested a Sulu series with John Cho. That could work provided there was more to it than that to make it interesting. One idea I thought of recently is having a concept similar to Sliders where the ship is stuck traveling between universes. That might be interesting if a little expensive.

304. Stephan - August 16, 2014

Just saw a video with picard speeches:

http://youtu.be/YJS18wQZd5Q

How I miss those. Patrick Stewart really has gravitas. That’s why we need a series because I don’t know it that can be done in the movies?

Or Boborci, prove me that I’m wrong. ;) I would love to see something like that in Trek 13.

305. Ahmed - August 16, 2014

“The crowdfunding campaign for “Star Trek: Axanar” — a fan-funded “Star Trek” film — has raised more than $200,000, donated through the website Kickstarter, blowing well past the original goal of $100,000.”

http://www.space.com/26839-star-trek-axanar-kickstarter-fan-film.html

Sorry, Phil :-)

306. Cygnus-X1 - August 16, 2014

Wasting no time, Phil activates the *Harlan Ellison* signal, which illuminates the skies above Los Angeles with the *HE* emblem to alert the writer and guardian of official franchise production that trouble looms on the horizon. . . .

307. Ahmed - August 16, 2014

@305. Cygnus-X1 –

LOL

308. Curious Cadet - August 16, 2014

@306 Cygnus-X1,

What do you suppose would happen if some industrious fans started producing a Nu-Trek series, based in the Abramsverse, but with better writing and stories?

Better yet, a Nu-Trek episode where the Nu-crew encounters the Guardian of Forever, and properly explores QM-MWI as it impacts time travel in Nu-Trek?

309. Dilithium_doublebock - August 16, 2014

Jeez. Away from the site for a few months and look what I’ve missed: sock puppet shenanigans, the return of AP (welcome back), and Mr Orci is responding again. Cool. Speaking of which …

@boborci. What sort of Kirk Delivery System will this movie be? Any hint of frat boy or all serious? Will there be any scenes that establish why the crew trusts and follow him?

@62 Vultan. Good one! That made me laugh.

310. Disinvited - August 16, 2014

#308. Curious Cadet – August 16, 2014

” What do you suppose would happen if some industrious fans started producing a Nu-Trek series, based in the Abramsverse, but with better writing and stories?” — Curious Cadet

I think they’d be quashed just as the 4 Abramverse spin-off novels were replaced by the less well-written Young Adult Academy novels to “…not risk stepping on the toes of JJ Abrams and his team as they craft the Star Trek sequel… ” as A Pascale put it.

311. boborci - August 16, 2014

309

good questions…. dealing with them head on!

312. Phil - August 16, 2014

@305. So what? Mr. Peters has already stated he’ll make whatever the hell Trek he wants, and he wants to make a live action version of Starfleet Battles. 200K is twenty thousand people ponying up twenty bucks, so clearly there is a small market for people wanting some more pew pew zap zap klabowie in their Trek, and as you and your buddy Cygnus just worship and adore their efforts, you should be thrilled about this….

Oh, wait…what was your objection to BR Trek again?…too much pew pew zap zap……….oops…

313. Phil - August 16, 2014

Bad math…ten bucks….Still a great deal for someone to make your own battling starships reel. Now, with even more ‘splosions!

Enjoy the show guys. Really, buy copies for your friends…..

314. Ahmed - August 16, 2014

Don’t be a “hater”, just chill out, Phil.

315. Cygnus-X1 - August 16, 2014

308. Curious Cadet – August 16, 2014

@306 Cygnus-X1,What do you suppose would happen if some industrious fans started producing a Nu-Trek series, based in the Abramsverse, but with better writing and stories?

Better yet, a Nu-Trek episode where the Nu-crew encounters the Guardian of Forever, and properly explores QM-MWI as it impacts time travel in Nu-Trek?

Well, I’d expect Harlan Ellison (whose cantankerousness I generally appreciate, I should say) to either maintain the same degree of concern or to be even more concerned (though, why he’s concerned in the first place is something of a mystery to me). As for our friend Phil, whom I kid in good humor, I’m not sure if he’d be equally *concerned* about a fan production set in the BR universe. I would hope that his position would be consistent like Ellison’s, but we’d have to ask him. And since we’re on Phil…

312. Phil – August 16, 2014

and as you and your buddy Cygnus just worship and adore their efforts, you should be thrilled about this….Oh, wait…what was your objection to BR Trek again?…too much pew pew zap zap……….oops…

Well, Phil, you do make a valid point. And if you read my comments in the most recent AXANAR thread, you’ll see that I was critical in the area that you raise and that I expressed concern about the full-length film having a story centered around a meaningful theme and not falling into “the BR trap” of being meaningless action and more sizzle than steak.

However, I would add that Prelude to Axanar is impressive as a piece with very little action and plenty of dialogue that succeeds at being very tight and not dragging at all. And the ultimate effect of the dialogue-rich, low-action 20 min. Prelude, judging by the reactions of the people who enjoyed it, was to get people intrigued about the world in which the full-length film will be set and to anticipate plot points lightly touched upon in the Prelude.

So, while I didn’t find the Prelude to be perfect, I did find it to succeed in one major area where the BR films are extremely weak (and obviously the Prelude is also impressive as a technical accomplishment, as are the BR movies).

316. Cervantes - August 16, 2014

Hmmm, Bob came back…Anthony’s returned…and now M J has resurfaced…hell, it’s like old times!

While I’ve disliked many things the ‘Nu’Trek movies have included (as well as *not* included) so far, I’m still interested to see what the next reboot may bring us all. I look forward to the journey here along the way, and I’m sure there will be plenty of opinions either way again.

317. Cygnus-X1 - August 16, 2014

310. Disinvited – August 16, 2014

” What do you suppose would happen if some industrious fans started producing a Nu-Trek series, based in the Abramsverse, but with better writing and stories?” — Curious Cadet

I think they’d be quashed just as the 4 Abramverse spin-off novels were replaced by the less well-written Young Adult Academy novels to “…not risk stepping on the toes of JJ Abrams and his team as they craft the Star Trek sequel… ” as A Pascale put it.

Oh, I agree with this. I’d be surprised if CBS licensed fan productions set in the BR universe while BR are still making their movies. Too much likelihood for stepping on toes there. However, after BR has finished with Trek and moved on, I wouldn’t mind seeing some fans reboot the BR movies or make productions set in that universe, as you say, with better writing and stories.

318. Tom - August 16, 2014

# 311 boborci

Will there be any scenes that establish why the crew trusts and follow him?

One answer to 309

KIRK/SHATNER (V.O.)
I look around at the new cadets now and
can’t help thinking… has it really been
so long? Wasn’t it only yesterday we
stepped onto the Enterprise as boys?
That I had to prove to the crew I
deserved command… and their respect?

319. Randall Williams - August 16, 2014

81. Harry Balls

There is a HBO adaptation of Steven Kings book “11/22/63″ in which the
main character goes back in time to stop Oswald from shooting JFK.

Sorry but that has already been done!

320. Curious Cadet - August 16, 2014

@319. Randall Williams,
“There is a HBO adaptation of Steven Kings book “11/22/63″

What is your source for that? My understanding is that Bad Robot is producing it as a 9 hour mini-series, but no network has yet bought it. Hulu might be in the mix, among others.

321. Harry Ballz - August 16, 2014

@319 Randall Williams “has already been done!”

As I mentioned in a subsequent post, I wrote my screenplay years ago, long before King published his book. Also, my script depicts how it was a conspiracy behind JFK’s death, whereas King’s premise is that Oswald was alone in killing Kennedy, which is completely absurd.

Stephen King had to keep his premise simple for his story to work. My story, If I may say so, is far more compelling, with a more realistic depiction of the facts regarding the assassination.

dmduncan is currently reading my screenplay. Maybe he’ll be kind enough to provide feedback here.

322. Hugh Hoyland - August 16, 2014

Hey Harry, any chance you have link to your screenplay? I’d give it a read. Sounds interesting.

323. Harry Ballz - August 16, 2014

Hugh, I very much appreciate your interest. At 59 I’m a dinosaur and don’t know how to link to save my life. Write me at michaelappleton@outlook.com and then I will post here citing just a few letters of your email. Once you confirm that I am correct with what I posted, I will email the script to you. I would love to hear your feedback.

324. Curious Cadet - August 17, 2014

@321 Harry Ballz,
“King’s premise is that Oswald was alone in killing Kennedy, which is completely absurd.”

I have to apologize for one thing I said back @173 about whether Oswald is depicted as the lone gunman. While I don’t think King specifically states Oswald was the lone gunman, he does make it clear he is a trigger man. However, since Kennedy lives when Oswald is removed from the situation, it would suggest Oswald was the sole gunman, or at least responsible for the two shots which struck Kennedy. Of course one could make the argument that the other gunmen were not to fire until Oswald fired the first shot.

I remembered several other time travel films revolving around Kennedy assassination, and found this article.

http://www.syfy.co.uk/blogs/bullet-time-sci-fis-obsession-kennedy-assassination

The most interesting is the one in which the CIA is disbanded as a result of Kennedy living. It’s interesting that the scifi UK blog omits the Dr. who episode.

You know it strikes me now that Roddenberry’s attempt to make Star Trek II about a time traveling Klingon preventing Kennedy from being killed, tread firmly on City On The Edge of Forever territory (I can even see Kirk holding Bones back from stopping the fatal shot), and in large part seemingly inspired the events of First Contact.

325. Oscar - August 17, 2014

Star Trek into darkness USA, $ 228,778,661 (total earnings in 120 days)
The Guardians of the Galaxy, $ 222, 281, 000 in 17 days!
So, who needs an Orci or an Abrams?
And The Guardians is not SW..It is obvious now Abrams team and Abrams reboot did not work so well…
ST NEEDS a new reboot, new people, it needs sense of wonder, and no more gijoe stuff.
Nu trek is not about space exploration and it is not space opera,
What is Nutrek? Because it is not The Guardians and it does want to be Interstellar, it seems.
Maybe, it is nothing, and because of it no future at all.

326. Mike Barnett - August 17, 2014

325. Oscar

NuTrek has 2 new writers and a new director who also happens to be one of us. Why not wait and see Star Trek 13 before writing it off? You might be pleasantly surprised.

327. Hugh Hoyland - August 17, 2014

323 Harry, done and thanks.

328. Osca - August 17, 2014

326.
Nu Trek 3 has a couple of would be writers and a would be director…
They are not my people. They are the people who destroyed the most important Sci fi canon…what for? For making a couple or three of gijoe trek…
I repeat, Paramount and bad robot guys destroyed the most important cinematic/tv universe and their only plan was a couple of gijoe movies.
I mean, they had no plan.
Marvel, DC, SW they have good plans, they want to develop huge cinematic/ tv universes. ST had it and they destroyed it…again Spock, again Kirk, again only the alpha quadrant and the rehearsal of old tales…I’m sick of Spock and Kirk. ST IS FUTURE. It is not an infinite revival of nostalgia…this is pure anti trek. It is not the only antitrek stuff…

In TOS brain was more important than brawn, and tricorders more than pistols..in this nutrek stuff they only want brawn and pistols…

They are not my people, My people love and respect ST soul. We are being led by a man who has not other goal than his own vanity.

STID was a anti trek mess, and Orci should carry the can. He should NOT.
They promoted him…
Paramount, ya gotta be kidding us?

329. dmduncan - August 17, 2014

One has but to read ACSoS for the answer to how Kirk should be.

Kirk shouldn’t be frat boy OR all serious. Kirk was all serious in STiD, and by that I mean MOROSE (but for the beginning), and I didn’t think it worked well.

Kirk should have humor, but the humor shouldn’t be at Kirk’s expense.

330. dmduncan - August 17, 2014

Harry, I got the download. I had a concert yesterday so my day was long and busy. I will set some time aside after I recover and read it all at once, and then give you the feedback here.

331. Cygnus-X1 - August 17, 2014

167. Keachick (Rose) – August 14, 2014

CygnusX1 – Is it a bit contradictory for people to say that not only was STID’s story was dumbed down but also convoluted? I mean – which is it?

The would-be themes—doing anything for your “family;” Kirk’s epilogue at the end about becoming your enemy; the Prime Directive bit—were “dumb.” I wouldn’t say that they were “dumbed down,” as they were never really built up and developed. It’s like the writers came up with some ideas for themes on the back of a napkin over lunch and just penciled them into the script with the intent of developing them later, but never did and the penciled-in parts made it into the final cut.

Spock’s behavior throughout the story is “dumb.” He goes off violating the Prime Directive to save a primitive culture, but then won’t save his own life by reason of not wanting to violate the same Prime Directive. (To say nothing of the bad science on display throughout that volcano scene.) Then, a few minutes later in the movie, it becomes evident why we had to endure Spock’s “dumb” volcano death-wish antics—so that Uhura could get upset about it and we’d get a would-be arc for the Spock/Uhura relationship, which, like the would-be themes, is never developed and has no bearing upon the outcome of the story.

Then Spock has his typical BR movie meltdown when his co-worker (Kirk) whom he has known for a short time dies. Spock goes off on a rampage and his girlfriend has to beg him not to kill Khan because they need his magic blood to save Kirk even though there are 72 other guys on the Enterprise, one of whom is already out of his cryotube and ready to use because they put Kirk in that tube, whose blood McCoy could be using or at least testing/analyzing while Kirk lies preserved in the cryotube.

Anyway, I think that’s enough on the “dumb” character arcs.

And the plot was convoluted and had gaps. This was a pretty common complaint, so I don’t think that I need to go into it much. Suffice it to say that Admiral Marcus behaves like a ridiculous, mustache-twirling comic-book villain for the purpose of having a plot twist. Marcus’s behavior doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, and Khan’s whole Section 31 backstory is inadequately explained, the cumulative effect of which is a plot that tended to confuse people. Wait…what was the deal with Marcus and the torpedoes and Khan exactly? Did Marcus want Khan’s 72 buddies dead? If so, why didn’t he just kill them in their cryotubes? “If Khan wants his friends back so badly, I’ll give’em his friends…in a hail of torpedoes! Muhuhuhahaha!!” It’s very comic-book-like, and sacrifices the believability of a character who was meant to be serious for the sake of a plot twist.

But, again, this confusion seems to be what the writers regard as “smart” writing, based on past comments by one of the writers here in response to these sort of points being raised. That just appears to be the mentality and approach to the writing of these movies—if you’re confused, you’ll conclude that the writers are smarter than you. And I’ve read similar complaints about the writing in BR TV shows—plot twists that go nowhere.

Anyway, long story short (too late), “dumb” and “convoluted” are not mutually exclusive problems/criticisms. The themes and character arcs are “dumb,” while the plot is convoluted.

332. dmduncan - August 17, 2014

Les Liaisons Dangereuses was made into movies twice in as many years: Dangerous Liaisons in 1988, and Valmont in 1989. Then again in 1999 as Cruel Intentions.

if Harry’s idea is the better, it would be worth making regardless of King’s book-into-miniseries or movie.

Hollywood has done stranger things than that. Example: We got TWO separately released PREquels to the Exorcist made from the same shot footage.

I saw each at the theaters. Both sucked.

333. Gary 8.5 - August 17, 2014

Welcome back MJ.
Good Luck!
It seems like a great time of new beginnings here at TrekMovie .

334. Tom - August 17, 2014

I know this has probably been covered at some point but is NuTrek or Orciverse alternate reality the same concept as what was seen in TNG episode Parallels?

335. Cygnus-X1 - August 17, 2014

334. Tom – August 17, 2014

I know this has probably been covered at some point but is NuTrek or Orciverse alternate reality the same concept as what was seen in TNG episode Parallels?

Yes, they are both based on the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of Quantum Mechanics. The only difference is that in ST09, the characters not only travel to a parallel universe (as does Worf in in TNG Parallels), but also to a previous point in time within that parallel universe.

More specifically, the characters in ST09 travel back to a past point in time at the intersection where the Prime Timeline of universes deviates from the BR Alternate Timeline of universe: the Prime Time line of universe continues onward to unfold as we all know it from Enterprise, TOS, TNG, etc….while we veer off and follow the events occurring in the newly-formed Alternate Timeline of universes which has recently split off from the Prime Timeline of universes.

Hope that wasn’t too confusing. The short answer is yes.

336. Gary 8.5 - August 17, 2014

I Loved Parallels.
I always felt bad for the alternate universe Troi, not being reunited with her
Worf.

337. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2014

@ 152

Cygnus, you’re wrong again..

God forgive me for quoting Reagan. But “There you go again.” You bend any fact to fit your narrative which is “I hate Bad Robot Star Trek.” This time you have no idea what a plot point is.

WHAT IS A PLOT POINT?

By your definition, the themes of Star Trek Into Darkness were plot points. And while themes can be plot points, the themes in STID were not, at least for the most part. I mean by your definition, any theme is a plot point. You could look at TOS’ “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” and conclude that the aliens’white-black skin are plot points. They are not. It’s a theme about how illogical racism is.

Let’s look to screenplay expert Syd Field for the definition of a plot point. First, remember that most movies are built into three acts.

“A plot point is any incident, episode, or event that “hooks” into the action and spins it around into another direction- in this case, Act II and Act III. ”

“Screenplay”, Syd Field, pp. 13. 1994.

In his book, Field uses the movie “Chinatown” often to demonstrate how a screenplay works. The first plot point in that movie is not the theme that rich men can kill and get away with it. It happens when the real Mrs. Mulwray (Faye Dunaway) comes and tells P.I. Jake Gittes (Jack Nicholson) who she is. We are now hooked into the mystery as why would a fake Mulwray would dupe Gittes.

The idea of the Prime Directive is not a plot point in STID. It’s always been a theme of Star Trek. It’s importance is that Kirk violates it to save Spock. But this doesn’t propel the action to Act II. The movie’s not about the Prime Directive. Kudos to Bob for SHOWING why the Prime Directive is important. After seeing the Enterprise save them, the aliens start to worship it as a god. Regarding the Prime Directive, we could also talk about Roddenberry’s dislike to American foreign policy such as involvement in Viet Nam but that’s another topic.

So what is the first plot point for Star Trek Into Darkness? It is when Harewood (Noel Clarke) bombs Section 31. One could argue it occurs when Khan… oops Harrison meets Harewood at the hospital and says “I can save her.” But the actual incident that spins this film to Act II is the bombing.

Some of the other themes in STID are not plot points. War and the war on terror are themes. They serve as motivation for Admiral Marcus. Themes are important but they may not be plot points no more than existentialism is the plot point to TNG’s “The Big Goodbye.”

If I may quote Sean Connery from “The Untouchables”, “Here endeth the lesson.”

@ 210

MJ,

First, let say, “Welcome back MJ.” By the way when you left, Cygnus had insinuated that Red Dead Ryan, Silvereyes and myself were your alter egos. If he had known better, he would have read some of the bitter fights that you and I have had in the past.

Of course, we had agreements too. Which may have led Cygnus to believe you and I were the same person. But those agreements are the positive things. We deduced that Harrison was Khan. Oops. We worked on that posting project in 2010 to show the world this site was not dead. I’m glad you’re back. I appreciate your logic.

338. Tom - August 17, 2014

Cygnus-X1

Thanks. Good explanation

339. Cygnus-X1 - August 17, 2014

337. Basement Blogger – August 17, 2014

My goodness, what a lovely fellow you are. Always a pleasure.
But, you do have an uncanny knack for accusing me of doing precisely what you are doing. In this case, “bending any fact to fit your narrative.”

My words, which you have cherry-picked to suit yet another rant aimed at me:

143. Basement Blogger – August 13, 2014

“There were multiple ideas or themes in the movie. The Prime Directive. War. The war on terror. Death. Life. Revenge. Friendship.”

152. Cygnus-X1 – August 13, 2014

These were more premises and plot points than themes.

There was no moral takeaway from STID. If TOS was a show based on moral allegories, as Nick Meyer put it, then what was the moral lesson that you took away from STID? There really wasn’t one. Not a meaningfully developed one, anyway. Kirk’s speech at the end of the movie is meant to summarize the movie’s theme as warning against becoming as evil as your enemy by your desire to take vengeance upon him, but the movie wasn’t really about that. That was a gesture of a theme, not a real theme.

Whether or not The Prime Directive, War, The war on terror, Death, Life, Revenge and Friendship are each best described as “plot points” or “premises” was not my main point. Following your example, I’ll cite the Wikipedia definition of “theme” in aid of explicating my main point:

Themes can be divided into two categories: a work’s thematic concept is what readers “think the work is about” and its thematic statement being “what the work says about the subject”

In this case, I was referring to the lack of a well-developed thematic statement. It is for this reason that I referenced Nick Meyer’s summation of TOS as being about moral allegories. None of the concepts that you listed are well-developed thematic statements in STID. The story does not say much about any of them, and none of them is the central lesson that the story is organized around imparting.

Were Kirk’s death and Pike’s death “plot points?” I’d say yes, but a rigid adherence to definitions was not my main point. There’s no real statement or lesson about Kirk’s death nor Pike’s death (nor about the death of anyone else in the story) so “death” not a theme in that respect (i.e. a thematic statement); and neither have I heard anyone say that they think that STID is “about” death. Because it isn’t. So, “death” is neither a theme in that respect (i.e. a thematic concept).

Is “death” a plot point? Do Pike’s death and Kirk’s death “spin the action in another direction?” An argument could be made for the application of that label, yes. Is “revenge” the premise of STID? An argument could be made for that, yes: Kirk is driven to avenge the murder of his mentor, Pike.

The story, however, teaches us nothing about revenge. The story “says” nothing particularly meaningful about revenge. Kirk, in his epilogue, tells us that he’s learned a lesson about revenge, but his statement does not match up with the story hitherto—what he tells us the moral of the story is supposed to be wasn’t actually the moral of the story. This is what I refer to as a “gesture of a theme.”

340. Keachick (Rose) - August 17, 2014

Yes, it does.

Kirk was all for going after Khan and doing exactly as Marcus had ordered, ie take out this terrorist whom he had actually seen kill Pike by firing on his location with torpedoes. Kirk was grief-stricken, angry and wanted revenge – now. However, after having heard Spock suggest to him that Marcus’s orders were not legal, McCoy aghast at the idea of pre-emptively firing on Kronos, having Scotty quit on him and having a little time to think once the Enterprise got underway, Kirk made the shipwide announcement that he would be finding and bringing this John Harrison back to earth to stand trial for his crimes. Instead of seeking revenge, Kirk was now seeking justice, and justice meant not killing this man but allowing him his day in court…

Perhaps, it is not apparent to many, but revenge is not generally the same as justice, and it needs to be justice that we should seek, not revenge. In Kirk’s epilogue (much of it deleted in the DVD version), he spoke about his own experiences, ie seeing that in seeking revenge, he was becoming not much different from the perpetrator in his attitude. An example of this is how Kirk kept angrily dismissing Dr McCoy’s valid requirement that he be medically checked out. Strictly speaking, Dr McCoy as ship’s Chief Medical Officer, should have written Kirk up, but he didn’t because of his friendship…

341. Cygnus-X1 - August 17, 2014

338. Tom – August 17, 2014

Cygnus-X1 Thanks. Good explanation

And you, my friend, are quite welcome.

342. Cygnus-X1 - August 17, 2014

340. Keachick (Rose) – August 17, 2014

once the Enterprise got underway, Kirk made the shipwide announcement that he would be finding and bringing this John Harrison back to earth to stand trial for his crimes.

This happens around the midpoint of the story.

That’s a pretty quick lesson. And a pretty small character arc.

What’s the rest of the movie about?

343. Cygnus-X1 - August 17, 2014

Actually, that happens well before the midpoint of the story, before they even go to Kronos, capture Khan and learn about the whole Marcus/Khan backstory/scheme.

344. Marja - August 17, 2014

339 Cygnus, The story, however, teaches us nothing about revenge. The story “says” nothing particularly meaningful about revenge. Kirk, in his epilogue, tells us that he’s learned a lesson about revenge, but his statement does not match up with the story hitherto—what he tells us the moral of the story is supposed to be wasn’t actually the moral of the story. This is what I refer to as a “gesture of a theme.”

Yeah, but [I know you'll] correct me if I’m wrong, but the overarching theme to me was one of Hubris, Revenge and their Resulting Costs — to our psyches, to our friendships, &c.

Which somebody cited as, ” ‘Revenge is bad, mmmmkay?’ Big deal!”

Well, it is a big deal. Marcus: Hubris. We’ll start — and win — a war with the Klingons using this superbad technology my tool “Harrison” has built. Revenge: Khan — on Marcus, with collateral damage — for the “loss” of his 72 cryocans o’ whoopass [a confusing plot point thar, I'll grant ye] — Revenge: Kirk, after loss of his father figure [which did not need to happen, I should think; seems an assault on SFHQ would suffice to move Kirk] — Resulting Costs: many deaths, and Kirk, and sooo many people were disappointed that he “sprang to life 10 minues later invalidating the whole death thing”.

What I took away from that was Kirk’s willingness to sacrifice his life — and the actual fact that he did — for his crew, and his learning that there are Real Costs [a real-life Kobayashi Maru] to captaining a ship and crew, that you don’t always luck out and win the day.

The fact that McCoy engineered a cure for irradiation [yes, bad science] does not invalidate this theme for me. And I think the general audience were moved by this, and relieved to see that Kirk was not dead after all. Some more critical types may have said, “Well, that was manipulative as hell,” and after seeing the movie a few times, many critics here said the same.

But remember — many of the critics here know STII [and therefore were hugely disappointed by this reversal of loss, which was so significant at the end of TWOK].

Even though Spock, in effect, sprang back to life in STIII, which is one of the reasons I felt a little “meh” about STIII. It’s hardly more realistic for a captain to steal a starship to rescue his friend than it is to reward a young pup like Kirk was at the end of ST09 with a command. But, to each their own.

345. Vultan - August 17, 2014

I didn’t think there was anything wrong with Kirk putting his life on the line to save the ship, or even bringing him back from the dead. What I didn’t like, and I think this is the main gripe of most fans/critics, is the WAY they did it, repeating the famous TWOK reactor scene nearly beat for beat.

They needed to be more creative than that.

346. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2014

@ 339

Cygnus,

Thank for your “compliment” on calling me lovely. Let me return your kind words. You are so “fair” and “logical” when it comes to Bob Orci and STID. This site needs more people like you who are “not obsessed” with one movie. I mean when we read your posts you clearly have moved on from disliking STID.

So please let me gently criticize your “amazing analytical prowess on film.” You say “Were Kirk’s death and Pike’s death “plot points?” I’d say yes[.]” The whole point of your argument was to say that life and death were not themes in STID.

But let’s stick to film experts, shall we? Syd Fields says ” A plot point is any incident, episode or event, or event that “hooks’ into the action and spins it into another direction-in this case, Act II or Act III.” Pike dying was not the event that spun the action into Act II. It was Harewood bombing Section 31. The bombing leads Starfleet to hunt Khan er… Harrison. There’s no meeting of Starfleet officers UNTIL Harewood bombs Section 31. Pike’s death is a result of the bombing, i.e., the meeting of Starfleet officers and Khan’s opportunity to kill them all.

Let me continue to compliment you. Hollywood needs more people like you. People who don’t understand art, and film and shoot from the hip. I’m shocked… shocked that Paramount has not contacted you. Let me praise you even more. The world needs more people like you. We need more Cygnuses who think with only the way they feel and don’t analyze stuff.

347. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

I managed to delete my response to Cygnus’s question and I have no idea how…doh

I think the themes that STID had were about showing the effects of warmongering, vengeful behaviour and abuses of trust.

Marcus was abusing the trust of many of those within Starfleet to engage in his secretive construction of a state of the art warship and long range weaponry and other things that would not be necessarily sanctioned if most knew about them and that would have likely included using a man from another century and threatening to kill his crew if he did not play ball. However, Marcus, as Head of Starfleet, could cover up what he was doing by having it “Classified”. Much of it was hidden in plain sight in a massive facility near Jupiter went pretty much *unnoticed* because, after all, Starfleet must know what they are doing and they are the good guys. There must be a good reason…(Actually, I think that most in Starfleet are basically good people)

Kirk realized with the help of Spock, McCoy and Scotty, that his desire for revenge was clouding his ethical judgement and knowledge of what actual Starfleet regulations/protocol demands when it comes to dealing with criminals. He then sought justice and never lost his resolve in this respect.

I agree with Marja that Pike did not need to die in order to illicit such an initial response from Kirk. It could have been that Pike was in a coma on life support and the prognosis uncertain. There was nothing more that Kirk could do for his captain Pike, but he could go get the SOB who did this to Pike and the others. This could have been his thinking and I think it would have worked just as well…

Marcus’s warmongering had him seek any opportunity to pre-emptively strike at the Klingons and start a war. He was prepared to use his own Starfleet officers under his command to do this, even when it meant betraying their trust and using them as fodder, collateral damage. Kirk and Spock (and that crew of the Enterprise) would be the perfect patsies as far as Marcus was concerned. After all, Kirk had violated the tenets of the prime directive in order to save a race from destruction and his first officer, so once Marcus’s real intentions were properly known, the likes of Kirk would become more than an irritant in his ability to instigate all out war and the vanquishing of the Klingon Empire for once and for all.

I have already posted on this thread or another the issue related to lying and how this undermines genuine trust.

348. Oscar - August 18, 2014

346
More pseudointellectual talk about gijoe trek into darkness. Sorry, this film is not a book of Kant. It is only a mindless pastiche. Seriously, some people have serious problems, if they think an abramsverse film has some meaning…
C’mon, Abrams hate s intellectual stuff in his movies. He is the antiRoddenberry.

Lincoln, by, Spielberg has intellectual stuff. But, STID? It is very ludicrous, seriously. What next? Transformers and the soul of the machines. A essay?

349. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

You have absolutely nothing positive to offer to anyone, only criticism. If anyone has serious problems, it is you. Obviously you feel that this abramsverse film has no meaning and is mindless pastiche from the getgo, yet you come here to repeat your rantings over and over and over, month after month and now refer to my comments as pseudointellectual talk. Well, at least I make an effort to make intelligent comments, not something you have ever managed to do, so far as I can tell.

If STID lacks any intellect, then how come I can find much to write about, just by using what is shown in this film as examples of trust/loss of trust, self-sacrifice, the difference between revenge and justice and other things?

Whoever said that STID was the book of Kant or was about Lincoln? It is its own story, with imperfections just like anything else. To compare these films to Transformers is just so been done – monotonous and so dumb.

Move on and take your boring rancor elsewhere.

350. star trackie - August 18, 2014

#339 ” …It is for this reason that I referenced Nick Meyer’s summation of TOS as being about moral allegories.”

This whole approach is part of your problem. As it is for many around here. Nick Meyer’s summation is wrong. It’s the highbrow bandwagon that so many fans hop on to. In reality, SOME of TOS was about moral allegories, but a lot of the time is was just nothing but plain old imaginative fun adventure. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You and so many more are trying to paint Bad Robot in a different color because the color doesn’t suit you, when in fact the colors of JJ Trek and TOS are one and the same.

351. star trackie - August 18, 2014

347 Oh dear, I see Oscar’s Prattle valve is leaking again.

352. Curious Cadet - August 18, 2014

@344 Marja,
“It’s hardly more realistic for a captain to steal a starship to rescue his friend than it is to reward a young pup like Kirk was at the end of ST09 with a command.”

I don’t follow your point with this (and that’s rare). On the face of it, it’s not OK that Orci is repeating the mistakes of the past. It was always a dumb plot contrivance that only one ship was available to pursue the Enterprise … They knew exactly where Kirk was going after all. But that continues to be a tired cliche in film after film where Earth is involved — the Enterprise is the only ship available to save the planet! Of course if your point is that anyone who accepts that as plausible must accept that promoting Kirk from cadet to captain is too, I would only argue that two wrongs don’t make a right. It’s been 30 years since TSFS … Poorly thought out plot devices masked by spectacle should be a thing of the past. Film makers should strive to do better.

353. TUP - August 18, 2014

No more talk of MJ please. So tiresome.

One of the many many problems with modern Trek films is the new Time Travel rules. It just doesnt ring true and is unsatisfying. any long time fan of Trek or an old fan who lapsed was probably very confused by Spock Prime not returning home and the heroes not even tyring.

They made the change due to laziness (they didnt want to spend the sequel trying to return Spock home) and to “free themselves from canon” and then proceeded to make the most canon-rich (and canon-violating) film yet. Makes not sense. Pure laziness.

And yes, a film can be both stupid and convoluted at the same time.

354. Phil - August 18, 2014

At this point I’m not sure what a scene by scene reconstruct of what STID is about accomplishes. The people prodding this debate have their own agenda they are promoting, namely that the only people who can return Trek to it’s ‘pure’ form (which is really a laughable premise in and of itself) are the producers of fan fiction, so all objectivity is out the window with these discussions. It’s been pointed out, ad nauseam, that all the issues they perceive in Bad Robot Trek also exist in the previous movies, and all the TV shows. So, when you strip away the bulk of their protests, what’s left? Diversion, or prattle about anti-Roddenberry, or lengthy dissertations about a return to some nirvana about balanced film makings. Basically, if you can’t blind them with brilliance, baffle them with bulls**t……

Trek is the icon it is because of what it represents AS A WHOLE body of work. The concept that we can overcome petty differences, that the prejudices and bias we all have don’t have to define us. That we have value for what we are. That there is hope. And while I can entertain that perhaps STID could have done a better job as an example of the craft, you cannot make the argument that STID isn’t Trek – it does embody the most basic of Trek themes, and you can’t ask for more then that.

355. Disinvited - August 18, 2014

#353. Phil – August 18, 2014

I agree STID, for me, is a recognizable Trek. However, I think that it is entirely another matter altogether as to whether I can ask more of it or even 60s Trek as I did when it first aired.

356. Tom - August 18, 2014

353 TUP

“One of the many many problems with modern Trek films is the new Time Travel rules. It just doesnt ring true and is unsatisfying. any long time fan of Trek or an old fan who lapsed was probably very confused by Spock Prime not returning home and the heroes not even tyring.”

Perhaps IF they decide to include Nimoy in this movie, they could give the character of Prime Spock some closure. We could learn where his place is in the Nutrek timeline or like you mention, the possibility of returning because he is “out of place”. Of course doing this would have to make sense in the context of the story they are telling for this movie.

357. TUP - August 18, 2014

Phil – you’re flat wrong. People can be critical of STID without wanting 60’s era Trek. We can dislike what we’ve been given and want better. It’s not our jbs to write better Trek. Guys like orci get paid a lot of money to write GREAT Trek and have thus far failed miserably.

The sad thing is, some fans on here do have better ideas.

The starting point for the next film should have been a Paramount directive to “celebrate the 50th anniversary with an epic”.

358. Ahmed - August 18, 2014

Collider reporting on this very article:

“Now Paramount will take a look at the script, offer notes, and things will move forward from there.[...] Of course, Orci and his ex-writing partner Alex Kurtzman have a reputation for being two of the most studio-friendly screenwriters in the business, so I have a feeling that Paramount will like Orci’s screenplay just fine.”

http://collider.com/star-trek-3-news-roberto-orci/

=============================

Must be good for business to have such a fine reputation !!

359. star trackie - August 18, 2014

#357 ” Guys like orci get paid a lot of money to write GREAT Trek and have thus far failed miserably.”

In your opinion. In my opinion, they have done a fantastic job of making Trek fun and relevant again. So there you have it. I am beyond delighted with the new movies and will, no doubt, continue to enjoy them while you will not. To quote Jim Kirk, “C’est la vie.”

360. TUP - August 18, 2014

The point should not be the impress the easily impressed. Its easy to debate popularity because that is box office, pure and simple. Transformers movies were very popular. But almost universally critically panned. They (outside of the first one) were just awful and a lot of that was in the script.

When we get to opinions on quality that is subjective of course and I would never begrudge anyone who liked the two Trek movies. Ill say it again, I LIKED the two Trek movies. But as a long time Trekkie who really appreciates the franchise and loves the characters, those two films did not stand up on repeated viewings. They got worse each time,. And thats because they LOOKED good, the ACTION was good, and many characterizations and performances were good. But once you strip away the awe and excitment of the first or second viewings, you start to look athe film more critically.

And to me, they just werent good enough. If it was creative decisions, I could at least say hey, I disagree with the decisions but it was done well. Unfortunately, there just isnt any excuse for some of the short cuts, bad writing, bad choices and bad plots. There was so much more they could have done. I almost think the writers were too close so there was too much agreement. no one to say “hey, you know what, this isnt bad, but this would make it so much better”.

361. Marja - August 18, 2014

352 Curious, It’s been 30 years since TSFS … Poorly thought out plot devices masked by spectacle should be a thing of the past. Film makers should strive to do better.

I agree with you — and NuPike — on this!

Agree that tired plot devices, especially all the focus on EARTH! should be a thing of the past.

362. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

#352 – “It was always a dumb plot contrivance that only one ship was available to pursue the Enterprise … They knew exactly where Kirk was going after all.”

I assume you are referring to STID and the “only one ship” was reference to the USS Vengeance captained by Admiral Marcus. If so, it is no wonder that you, and perhaps many others, have yourselves so tied in knots about this film.

No, they (the rest of Starfleet) did not know where Kirk would be. Remember – the whole mission was COVERT, done in secret, off the record. So why would Marcus send other ships after Kirk, so they could learn what the SECRET mission was, thus voiding the covert nature of this action? Another fact was that when Uhura tried to get through to Starfleet command, she was blocked and only Marcus was able to receive the message being sent, ie that Harrison/Khan was alive and in custody aboard the Enterprise and that they were bringing him back to earth. That was clearly not what Marcus wanted to hear.

Marcus went after the Enterprise and Starfleet was not in the loop. He made sure of that. When the battle came close to earth, Marcus would have told the fleet to stand down which he could legitimately do as Head of Starfleet.

As for the time when the Enterprise had lost all power and was going to crash into the earth, it was all happening so fast. What could any other earth vessels do, other than rescue those getting out of the Enterprise via escape pods? The authorities no doubt called for a general evacuation, but everything happened so fast that there was little time to do much of anything, re the Enterprise or the Vengeance.

I suppose Starfleet could have ordered that the two ships be destroyed, but it was too late when it came to the Vengeance (plus the V had extra shielding etc). In the Enterprise’s case, once any ship saw that the Enterprise was under power again and able to manouevre away from earth, then there was no need to carry out the destruction order.

363. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

344. Marja – August 17, 2014

Yeah, but [I know you'll] correct me if I’m wrong, but the overarching theme to me was one of Hubris, Revenge and their Resulting Costs — to our psyches, to our friendships, &c.

Yeah, sorry, I just don’t see it. I see no support in the story for what you’re saying. And neither have I seen any critical reviews, btw, saying that they found STID to be an allegory about revenge. This is not a movie that will be referenced in literature or film classes for having a solid, meaningful, well-developed theme. Of that I am certain.

364. Marja - August 18, 2014

348 Oscar Sorry, this film is not a book of Kant.

Gosh, I bet millions of viewers would flock to see a book of Kant realized on the big screen.

The best a filmmaker can do is touch on philosophical themes.

Sorry, Oscar, but your cant doesn’t play well.

365. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

346. Basement Blogger – August 18, 2014

Now I can cross have an Trekkie online bromance off of my list.

I have as much right to discuss STID or any other topic as you do.

Implying that I should “move on,” while you continue to make comments about the movie, is neither fair nor logical.

But, wait…you just accused me (yet again with the ad hominem accusations) of being neither fair nor logical.

Oh, shoot. Did I just point out your hypocrisy again? I’m sorry, that was not my intention. Guess I really can’t stop myself “shooting from the hip.”

366. Marja - August 18, 2014

TUP, “celebrate the 50th anniversary with an epic”.

If the “epic” includes shoehorning in the TOS crew, because “the original actors need to be in Star Trek once more” before they pass on, I’m not so sure Paramount would make that a directive.

Paramount’s directive is “make a film that’ll make money and entertain audiences.” I doubt the target audience would be very interested in the sorts of “epics” that have been proposed here in other threads [then TOS Kirk comes back to life and saves the day; &c.]. The target audience is young, new to Trek, and some may be fans of TOS, a love passed on by their parents or grandparents.

How many blockbusters have you seen that feature 70- to 80-y/o actors [grand- or great-grandparent age] to the target audience in more than minor roles?

Yes, it’s very unfortunate that Trek is scheduled for Summer Blockbuster Season [I've said this many times], but I don’t think an epic as previously proposed would make it over even a junior Paramount exec’s desk. Sorry.

367. Harry Ballz - August 18, 2014

Not to get involved in this VietNam, but here is an observation……

When people here were criticizing each other with personal attacks, some said, “never mind character assassinations! If you didn’t like the movie, be specific, give examples!”

So, some here embraced that advice, and started to post detailed critiques of where (in their opinion) the movie was flawed.

And now, what do we get? People saying, “enough with the rehash of scenes from STID. It’s been done to death!”

I think dissecting a movie, scene by scene, is a good way to discuss the merits, or detriments, of said film. Far more constructive than calling each other names.

368. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

350. star trackie – August 18, 2014

This whole approach is part of your problem. As it is for many around here. Nick Meyer’s summation is wrong. It’s the highbrow bandwagon that so many fans hop on to. In reality, SOME of TOS was about moral allegories, but a lot of the time is was just nothing but plain old imaginative fun adventure. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Well, there’s not much to say in response to this. The vast majority of Trek fans cite Meyer’s TWOK as the best Trek movie. “Plain old imaginative fun adventure” is not mutually exclusive with moral allegories. The appeal of TOS was that it had both. The BR movies have neither.

I don’t see much “adventure” in STID. ST09 had a bit more, I’ll grant that. But it’s not as fun when there’s no deeper meaning to the story. Not to the “highbrow” likes of me, anyway. If your criticism is that my approach is too highbrow, then I’ll take that as a compliment. (In the same discussion, I’ve got one person implying that I’m dumb and thoughtless and another saying that I’m too highbrow.)

But I’ll also add that smart and fun/adventurous are neither mutually exclusive. A good sci-fi/action movie is both. It appeals to people on a primal level but also has deeper levels for those of us who appreciate that. The best movies have a meaningful lesson or intriguing concept/notion that everyone can take away from the story.

369. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

But people like me and Marja are taking away deeper meaning from STID than you seem to be able to do, Cygnus. What does that say about an audience and the movie itself?

I am not sure what “highbrow” or “dumb” means in this context. I guess it is a matter of whether someone gets/understands what themes and allegories there may be or does not. Just because some people are not able to see something does not necessarily mean that it is not there.

If we took that attitude with dogs, we would not have sniffer dogs at airports or helping humans hunt in the past. Dogs can smell way more than any human is ever capable of smelling/detecting. Just because some of us can’t smell that well, or at all, does not mean that a scent does not exist.

370. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

352. Curious Cadet – August 18, 2014

It’s been 30 years since TSFS … Poorly thought out plot devices masked by spectacle should be a thing of the past. Film makers should strive to do better.

This is an important point that gets forgotten about.

BR are standing on the shoulders of all of the writers that came before them over the previous 45-50 years of the franchise. They’re using pre-established concepts and pre-developed backstories. (And they’re not adding much of their own, btw.)

The point being that BR should be IMPROVING upon the mistakes of the past 45-50 years, not repeating them. The BR writers should be analyzing the mistakes of the past and avoiding them. But this has not been the case. In fact, they have not only repeated the mistakes of the past in terms of plot holes, etc., but done far worse in those respect PLUS added new problems in terms of bad science, problematic tech conceits and poorly written characters.

371. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

354. Phil – August 18, 2014

At this point I’m not sure what a scene by scene reconstruct of what STID is about accomplishes. The people prodding this debate have their own agenda they are promoting, namely that the only people who can return Trek to it’s ‘pure’ form (which is really a laughable premise in and of itself) are the producers of fan fiction, so all objectivity is out the window with these discussions.

I guess you’re not one for analysis.

And, I haven’t seen anyone state the position that you are attributing to everyone who sees problems with the BR approach to Trek.

Certainly some of the fan productions are much more reminiscent of the spirit, values and sensibilities (not to mention the look and feel in productions like Continues, Phase 2 and Farragut) of TOS, but I haven’t seen anyone say that only fan productions can improve upon the failings of BR. I’d love to see someone like Ron Moore take over franchise Trek production. I really don’t understand where you get these wild notions from, Phil.

372. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

One of the many many problems with modern Trek films is the new Time Travel rules. It just doesnt ring true and is unsatisfying.

I can’t speak to whether it satisfies, but the new time travel device would have rung more true if it had been explained better in the movie. The 30 seconds that they spend on this mind-blowing phenomenon (and the only worthwhile science in either of the BR movies) served only to confuse the audience. Again, the makers of the film seem to have relied on their strategy of fast-pacing to convince the audience that their inability to understand what’s happening must be attributable to the writers being smarter than them. If you watch that 30-second scene in ST09 where Alt Spock “explains” the time-travel phenomenon, it seems anything but designed to elucidate the issue. And the use of the phrase “altered the flow of time” by Alt Spock really confuses things, being that the “flow” or rate of time-passage has not been altered, but rather the universe(s) or “timeline” in which the events in the story are occurring is what has changed. So, the confusion about the time-travel issue is due to a poorly written explanation which is exacerbated by the pace at which the scene plays out.

360. TUP – August 18, 2014

The point should not be the impress the easily impressed. Its easy to debate popularity because that is box office, pure and simple. Transformers movies were very popular. But almost universally critically panned. They (outside of the first one) were just awful and a lot of that was in the script.

And this is a good point. Even many of the people who defend the BR movies would agree that Michael Bay movies are cheap thrills, at best. And yet Michael Bay keeps getting work because his movies sell tickets. So much for box office grosses as the standard of excellence.

373. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

353. TUP – August 18, 2014

But as a long time Trekkie who really appreciates the franchise and loves the characters, those two films did not stand up on repeated viewings. They got worse each time,. And thats because they LOOKED good, the ACTION was good, and many characterizations and performances were good. But once you strip away the awe and excitment of the first or second viewings, you start to look athe film more critically.

And my feelings are pretty much the same.

I enjoyed both movies in the theater, but I never watch them at home now that I see all of the problems with them.

The reason for this has a lot to do with technology. Modern movie-making technology allows filmmakers to make audio-visual spectacles that will entertain even without a story.

You can see a great action sequence on screen and get a thrill out of it, even if it’s just a set piece without a greater story. Add titillating visuals, compelling sound fx and moving music, and you’ve got good chunk of your action movie right there before you’ve even put pen to paper.

Add to all of that the famous and beloved Trek characters, the audience being familiar with their backstories before the movie even starts, set it all in outer space in the future—which is inherently interesting and mysterious—and you’ve got much of your BR Trek movie without a word of dialogue.

374. Craiger - August 18, 2014

I liked ST 2009 but I think they still could have respected the original timeline by doing a complete remake and not used time travel. Could they have made a complete remake action packed and character driven? Some of the crews first assignments were boring right?

375. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

Cygnus – you just keep repeating the same cliched criticisms over and over.

Frankly, the only genuine tech/science problem I see is about having a device that could nix a volcano in its tracks. This tech needs to be very precise and even then certain (unforeseen) environmental complications might arise from the use of such technology, even if it did work in the short term.

Stopping a volcano is not necessarily a good thing in the longterm. Most of the city I live in is made up of dormant and extinct volcanoes – there are a number of suburbs with the name Mount… and that mount was/is a volcano. However, Auckland is a place where almost anything can grow well (both exotic and indigenous), because of the climate and richness of much of the earth and this is because the volcanic activity has been recent in geological terms. Some of it goes back only a few hundred years, if that. Rangitoto, a large dormant volcano sitting in the middle of the Waitemata Harbour, blew up about 650 years ago, approximately, which makes it a baby, geologically speaking.

Auckland *boasts* of having about 60 volcanoes and only half of those are deemed to be extinct.

As you can see, there may be negative repercussions from trying to prevent volcanic and other earth spewing, shaking, moving activity and positive results from allowing nature to take its course.

What I am saying has nothing to do with the Prime Directive as has been explained within any Star Trek iteration.

376. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

Speech is but one means of communication.

377. DaddlerTheDalek - August 18, 2014

Good luck Bob Orci!

378. Tom - August 18, 2014

366 Marja

I do think the objective would be to make a financially succesful movie. I do not think using TOS actors would hurt this. I agree that the roles would not be featured roles. I think the movie should work on different levels. The movie should work for the young audience that is new to Trek. It also could and should work on a different levels for long tome Trek fans as well. Its like watching The Simpsons. Young kids can watch it and enjoy it but the humor touches adults too. They may each comprehend different aspects of the humor but everyone comes out entertained. I am sure it is not easy to do but Bob and team did a pretty good job of it on 09

379. Tom - August 18, 2014

I wonder if JJ is ticked at Bob for giving away Fade to Black. Not only gave away next Trek but spoiled the ending to SW Episode 7

380. Franco - August 18, 2014

Mr. Orci. If this is an “alternate time line” many of us die hards would love to see even a glimpse of what is going on in the prime universe. Most of the 50 years of the existence of this beloved franchise took place there, so to show us something there would make some people very happy. A movie to commerate those 50 years that does not include that doesn’t seem fitting.
Thanks
Franco

381. Gary 8.5 - August 18, 2014

378. What are you talking about?

382. Tom - August 18, 2014

379 Gary 8.5

Just joking about JJ and his secrecy

boborci:
p & m & I wrote, “fade out” yesterday

383. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2014

@ 365

We agree on something. Yes, you have every right to talk about any topic you want. And if that topic is Bad Robot’s Star Trek , 24-7, , then we look forward to you pointing out how evil Bad Robot is . We look forward to your “fairness’ and “logic” when it comes to Bad Robot Star Trek. and Bob Orci. With your “wisdom”, let me say I’m shocked… shocked that Bob did not contact you to write the script for Star Trek 3.

You then accuse me of making ad hominem attacks. Let me use a phrase the kids use. ROFL. This is what the phrase “pot calling the kettle black” means. I mean you would think I accused you of being a sock puppet. Hold on. That’s what you did to me and others. It’s kind of obvious that you can dish it out but can’t take it.

ooking forward to more Cygnus, kindness, fairness and logic.

384. Disinvited - August 18, 2014

# 362. Keachick (Rose) – August 18, 2014

” No, they (the rest of Starfleet) did not know where Kirk would be. Remember – the whole mission was COVERT, done in secret, off the record. So why would Marcus send other ships after Kirk…” — Keachick (Rose)

Marcus would send other ships precisely because they did NOT know about the covert mission. With those ships he could have made the same accusations that he did about Kirk from the captain’s chair of Vengeance and expect the captain of the other ships to successfully carry out his orders to stop the rogue captain Kirk who was colluding with the known terrorist, Harrison. As to how he knew where Kirk was, he could claim that the increased scans and intelligence operations in the last known sector of where Harrison fled uncovered Kirk.

385. Jonboc - August 18, 2014

373 Cygnus “I enjoyed both movies in the theater, but I never watch them at home now that I see all of the problems with them.”

So, by that standard, I guess you never watch TOS, TOS, movies or TNG and it’s spin-offs as they are riddled with similar “problems”.

386. Disinvited - August 18, 2014

# 375. Keachick (Rose) – August 18, 2014

” What I am saying has nothing to do with the Prime Directive as has been explained within any Star Trek iteration.” — Keachick (Rose)

How so? In RETURN OF THE ARCHONS, Prime Kirk successfully argued that the Prime Directive only applied to “healthy” cultures. I ask you, what could be a more “unhealthy” culture than one exploded by a volcano?

STID’s only problem is its Kirk is too young to have thought it up and successfully defended his original plan for that reason which would have resulted in the Nibiri being monitored for further “unhealthy” developments. He’d still get a reprimand for being seen but it wouldn’t have been as big a deal. And in the hands of a Prime Scotty and Kirk would have probably been claimed that some technical glitch caused them to emerge and been seen by the natives in the first place.

The other thing that bugs me about the Nibiri scene, is you have this great technical marvel hiding under the water, and they could not cook up some masking weather phenomenon by firing phasers into the water to generate steam clouds to mask their ascent? I’m fairly certain the Enterprise could survive a steam bath — not to mention probably already being in hot water (figuratively and literally) with the active volcano nearby.

387. Son of Jello - August 18, 2014

386. Disinvited – August 18, 2014

I don’t think the idea of steam as a cover would be a slow and gentle process. I don’t know how hi the temperature is on the Enterprises phasers, but if they could heat up the surrounding water into steam (enough to conceal a pretty big object).

If you tried it you would get a huge underwater explosion with the steam trying to expand in a pressurised environment and may be closer to a depth charge next to the hull rather than a convenient desguise. Unless your trying to outsmart the natives by blowing up and sinking. :)

388. Disinvited - August 18, 2014

#387. Son of Jello – August 18, 2014

You are not picking up on the fact that I assume that at that point the water has already been pre-heated by the active volcano. The change in temperature is not likely to be as extreme as you imagine and we already know from the series’ episodes THE ULTIMATE COMPUTER and A PIECE OF THE ACTION that the phasers energy output is tuneable. My microwave’ll boil a bowl of cold water in 3 minutes without exploding. I assume the E can get pre-heated seawater to steam above it in the time it takes to rise from below. It took time for it to rise out of the water with no steam — your question would then be did they have enough time to create a steaming veil to mask their maneuver? It is within the SF movie fudge factor that the heroes always arrive just in the nick of time.

But here’s another poser: Why is the Nibiri reveal regarded as any more damaging than the one in STIV when Kirk revealed a Klingon Bird of Prey’s advanced alien civilization spaceship to whalers of primitive 20th century Earth?

389. Keachick (Rose) - August 18, 2014

#384 – Yes, I suppose Marcus could have done that, but he didn’t in this film and I suggested a reason why he did not.
If you want to rewrite the story, then that’s your call. However, I am working with what was shown on the screen and have no wish to rewrite anything.

“How so? In RETURN OF THE ARCHONS, Prime Kirk successfully argued that the Prime Directive only applied to “healthy” cultures. I ask you, what could be a more “unhealthy” culture than one exploded by a volcano?”

What are you on about?

I have been the one arguing all along that I believe that Kirk, Spock and co. were right to use the technology they had to prevent further eruptions which would allow for the continued existence of the Nibiruns. The fact that a few of the people got a brief glimpse of a vessel emerging from the ocean and flying through into the heavens was not a big deal. Other posters have argued to the contrary and some say that Kirk was wrong on every point. That has never been me.

If you have read my other comments over the past few weeks on this issue, you will see that I question the fairness and validness of providing assistance to a more advanced race while denying similar to a race that is more primitive. Natural disasters like earthquakes and volcanoes do not discriminate who gets to live and who doesn’t simply because of having more advanced technologies etc. If you are in the way, then you are screwed, no matter who you are.

This notion of playing *favourites*, ie OK to render technological assistance to one but not another facing the same circumstances (a naturally occurring disaster) something which is determined solely by whether first contact has happened, is tantamount to playing God.

One thing that confused me was why Kirk and McCoy were even on the planet, taking their religious icons, scarpering off and then hanging the icon from a tree, not long before they leapt off the cliff into the ocean. There was no need for anyone of them to be there and at all visible. The only ones who needed to be off the Enterprise “starsubmariner” were those in the shuttlecraft – Spock, Sulu and Uhura.

The other issue is that I was talking about how volcanic activity on earth over time can have environmental impacts that are not necessarily bad in the long term, except for any life there at the time of these earthly outpourings…:( I was speaking from a geological perspective. It had nothing to do with Star Trek or Trek’s Prime Directive concept.

390. Commodore Adams - August 18, 2014

Prelude to Axanar is amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/user/startrekaxanar

PLEASE SUPPORT THE STAR TREK AXANAR KICK STARTER!
Let’s make this movie happen!

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LLAP

391. Son of Jello - August 18, 2014

388. Disinvited – August 18, 2014

I don’t think the steam will work to well as a cover it wouldn’t rise to high, then you would have to move it along with the ship. Depending on wind direction it could take a while to get to the volcano even if the wind is favourable and the steam cloud quite large. It would be better to use a shuttle or probe as a distraction maybe generating its own cloud of steam or generating a kind of gaseous anomaly as a distraction while the Enterprise moves to a less visible location before breaking the surface.

They could have gotten away with the E being some kind of sea monster in the low lying mist while most of the attention was on the shuttle or probe flashing some lights from inside the steam cloud going in the opposite direction. It would be better if they thought they saw something in the water rather than a huge ship appearing before them. Or even a plan B or C ready for when things went wrong they could have generated a kind of flash bang as they breached the water it would have been more confusing to the natives of the planet and they may have been able to explain it to themselves as an act of their own god rather than completely destroying their cultural belief system.

Unfortunately the whole exercise was just an excuse the have the E rise out of the water and damn the natives.

The bird of prey would have been attributed to a new Russian bomber (that would have been a good excuse to increase military spending) or just another drunken tale about flying sea monsters from a group of fishermen. If they are whalers there is a good chance what they were doing was illegal and in US waters not something they would be advertising.

392. Marja - August 18, 2014

Rose, But people like me and Marja are taking away deeper meaning from STID than you seem to be able to do, Cygnus. What does that say about an audience and the movie itself?

It says, to some people, that you and I are just busy as little beavers filling in the plot and that we’re working really hard to do the writers’ jobs for them. [shrug]

393. Cygnus-X1 - August 18, 2014

383. Basement Blogger – August 18, 2014

I mean you would think I accused you of being a sock puppet. Hold on. That’s what you did to me and others. It’s kind of obvious that you can dish it out but can’t take it. Looking forward to more Cygnus, kindness, fairness and logic.

Is that what this has all been about? You’re harboring a grudge about my having thought that “Basement Blogger” was one of the many aliases of [he who shall not be named] back in the crazy days of February 2014?

Look, it was nothing personal. The whole “sockpuppeting” thing came as a complete shock to me, as it did to pretty much all of the other regulars here. When I realized the whole sockpuppet transgression, I went back through some of the threads one day and tried to figure out who the sockpuppets were. I correctly guessed at least 6 of them, but I also made a few wrong guesses.

The truth is that the whole incident left me rather suspicious and wary. But after that one incident of my guessing who the sockpuppets were, I never said peep about it again.

I have no idea who you are. There is no way for me to verify that you are not so-and-so. That is why I dropped the issue immediately. So, what do you want from me? You want me to apologize to you publicly for having thought you an alias of so-and-so 6 months ago? How can I do that when I don’t know who you are? The fact that I immediately dropped the issue is the best that I can honestly do. I admit my ignorance.

But, in the words of James T. Kirk from ST06, I cannot confirm or deny events I did not witness. I’m leaning toward believing that you’re not so-and-so, but he was extremely devious, even going so far as to have different personalities and staged arguments amongst and between his many aliases, so I can’t really be 100% sure. Honestly, your being so antagonistic toward me hasn’t helped matters, because that’s something that you have in common with “him.” If you’re not him, then I apologize. What more can I honestly say about it?

394. Marja - August 18, 2014

389 Rose, Supposedly McCoy and Kirk were trying to draw the natives away from the volcano.

Very weird, in view of the fact that if that baby blew, it would’ve belched lava and gases far beyond where the Nibiruan village was.

I think it was more in the way of “Let’s have a comedic scene with Kirk and McCoy” ….

395. Disinvited - August 19, 2014

#391. Son of Jello – August 18, 2014

I like your more energy efficient sleight of hand approach.

But i would still like to point out that once the E generated a fog bank to rise into, then it could use its phasers to create a wall of steam between it and the natives to obscure itself as it heads to the volcano. Hopefully approaching from the side of the volcano away from the natives .

But you know I was just thinking “Too bad they seem to not have flash bang grenades to temporarily blind the natives.” and then it just occurred to me that using your guised shuttle they could have just stunned them. The natives are likely familiar with lightning which active volcanoes are known to generate and probably would have just wrote it off to that.

In regards to the whalers seeing the Klingon ship, I only brought that up because while we might make distinctions the Federation as depicted never has in regards to the Prime Directive they seem to consistently take the position that all contaminations are equally bad for all civilizations that aren’t being asked to join. Kirk might have a legal loophole in that he could argue the Federation and its laws didn’t exist in 1987. It would be expected there would be ex post facto prohibitions in Federation Law.

396. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

385. Jonboc – August 18, 2014

So, by that standard, I guess you never watch TOS, TOS, movies or TNG and it’s spin-offs as they are riddled with similar “problems”

That is a valid point.

And my answer is partly what I said in my post here #370.

But also that the TOS movies and episodes and the TNG episodes that I enjoy have significantly fewer such problems and are also much richer in what the BR movies are lacking—character and thematic development.

I don’t watch the TNG movies because they are as bad (or worse) as the BR movies in terms of plot problems. If you go back to the STIII 30th Anniversary thread, for example, you’ll see that we had a very productive discussion about all of the plot problems in that movie, but also about all of the good stuff. There’s simply not as much good stuff, to put it simply, in the BR movies partly because the wall-to-wall action scenes take up so much of the movie that there’s little left for character and thematic development.

397. Basement Blogger - August 19, 2014

@ 393

Cygnus,

A couple of things. If you don’t like BR Star Trek, that’s fine. But I get tired of you bending facts to fit your narrative. Example: I point out themes in STID but you have to say no just to be negative about the film. It’s like I say something about STID and you’ve got to find some twist to make it negative. I could say Chris Pine has great hair and I’m sure you would find something to counter that just to be negative to the film. You do that with others who support STID. YES, IT’S YOUR PREROGATIVE TO HAVE AN OPINION,AND TO DISAGREE WITH ME.

But don’t expect your logic to go unchallenged.. I used to defend you on the 2009 film but now you go out of your way to find anything wrong with STID. What next? STID causes global warming? Yeah, some of us, like Red Dead Ryan and MJ, HIS NAME IS MJ, challenged you.

And from your post you tarred your opponents as MJ. That’s not fair, or logical. Making those false accusations is part of your problem. That’s what’s wrong here. There’s no evidence other than I agreed with MJ on occasion that we were the same person. You take facts and bend them to a narrative. Basement Blogger disagrees with me so he must be MJ. Sorry, if I don’t like people who do that. You see I like critical thinking. Making decisions without thinking leads us to trouble. Maybe today it’s an auto accident. Tomorrow, an innocent person gets convicted. Or maybe we go to war over nothing like Iraq.

Second, I’m a regular here. And most of the people know me. I am not and never have been MJ. I guess I shouldn’t find it shocking that you still have doubts that I am not MJ. If you had read any time I’ve announced my name or looked at the hyperlink of my blog, you would know it. So for your edification, my real name is:

Bernie Wong. I live in Cincinnati, Ohio. See the hyperlink to my blog I take the name of Basement Blogger as a self deprecating joke since bloggers get the reputation of operating in the basement. Regardless, I won’t hide behind a keyboard. You know who I am. Let me put it this way. If you Googled my name and my work, you would find my phone number. .

By the way , MJ lives in Southern California, and that’s where his internet address is. .

398. Son of Jello - August 19, 2014

I like the lightning idea and if the E was traveling towards the natives the with the phasers firing first would work. But i like my sea monster idea better its the lumpy look of the new E that I think would make it work the bridge dome and the top of the narcelles barely showing in the mist would be lock ness monsterish Its the mystery that makes things interesting not the spectacle.

It would have more interesting visually for both the plot audience and the natives being introduced to the enterprise with mysterious lightning and a murky monster shape. And it would have fit in visually with the theme that they were trying for. The darkness living inside the federation.

399. Son of Jello - August 19, 2014

397. Basement Blogger – August 19, 2014

Hi I am of the opinion that MJ is poison for this sight just his presence recently has caused a disruption and reignited conflict between posters that should have stayed in the past with MJ and his behaviour. It has brought back bad memories of what this person is capable of doing to people in this forum. Its not that he should not be forgiven but he does not understand or appreciate what people have done and continue to do for him. I do know each time he abuses this place his world becomes smaller and smaller until the chance of being forgiven will no longer exist.

400. Son of Jello - August 19, 2014

395. Disinvited – August 19, 2014

The Federation and its laws didn’t exist in 1987

Yep prime Kirk would flip them off with this on the way out the door with some booze and kitty alien action under each arm.

401. Disinvited - August 19, 2014

# 394. Marja – August 18, 2014

” 389 Rose, Supposedly McCoy and Kirk were trying to draw the natives away from the volcano.” — Marja

More like away from it because of the looming “cold” front. I mean what good is stopping the volcano if you freeze the natives to death? I offer as further evidence that Spock waited until he heard from Kirk that the natives were in position. Why would he wait to set off the cold seal if it posed no threat?

402. Michael Hall - August 19, 2014

“373 Cygnus “I enjoyed both movies in the theater, but I never watch them at home now that I see all of the problems with them.”

So, by that standard, I guess you never watch TOS, TOS, movies or TNG and it’s spin-offs as they are riddled with similar “problems”.

Answering only for myself I can give you my opinion that, far from perfect as it was, TOS was not typically “riddled” with the same kinds of plot holes, errors in logic and bad science that plague the Bad Robot films. The reason? It was produced by adults, for adults. Read “These Are the Voyages” (or even David Gerrold’s book about the making of “The Trouble With Tribbles”) to see what a gauntlet the TOS writers had to run to get their scripts approved by the likes of a Roddenberry, Coon, or Justman. Not that their own creative judgement was infallible by any means–but for a while, at least, they treated each episode of their silly, low-budgeted space opera as an opportunity to create something special. Trek, for them, was not just disposable entertainment, or merely the latest installment in an endless series of projects. They took pride as craftsmen, whether they cared anything for science fiction or not, did the best they could with the limited resources available, and treated their show like it was something built to last. Which is why it has.

403. star trackie - August 19, 2014

#402 “They took pride as craftsmen, whether they cared anything for science fiction or not, did the best they could with the limited resources available, and treated their show like it was something built to last. Which is why it has.”

But has it? There are many, some of those being friends of my nephew (who is 23) that watched the new movie with no IDEA that there was an old TV series. That’s how relevant Trek had become with there being no presence on TV. The old series weren’t sought out. They weren’t revered. If they were known it was by bits on Family Guy or Robot Chicken. Bad Robot has made young people aware of Star Trek. They don’t all seek out the original. but with it on Netflix, many are. That alone has made the new movies worthwhile.

404. Michael Hall - August 19, 2014

A Tale of Two Conversations:

A. E. Van Vogt, famous SF writer: I have an idea for a story that–

Bob Justman: Too expensive.

Gene Coon: How does this relate to our characters?

Gene Roddenberry: What’s the theme? Where’s the story?

Bob Justman: Your idea doesn’t make any sense.

Gene Roddenberry: Our characters wouldn’t act like that.

Gene Coon: Maybe D.C. Fontana could do something with it.

(Van Vogt slinks away. He never did make a sale to Star Trek.)

Bob Orci: Hey J.J., check this out. Guy did a Photoshop composite of the Enterprise being built in the Long Beach shipyards.

J.J. Abrams: Neat!

Bob Orci: Everyone always assumes the ship was built in space just because that makes sense. Let’s show them that they’re wrong. I see young Kirk after he’s just gotten his ass handed to him by some Starfleet thugs in a bar fight, watching His Destiny being put together in an Iowa cornfield. The music swells; it’s a powerful moment.

J.J. Abrams: Kewl!

405. Curious Cadet - August 19, 2014

@395. Disinvited,
” they could have just stunned them.”

Yeah, they could have just stunned them. There is at least one episode of TOS where the Enterprise stunned a group of people on the planet, as I recall (which was it?). That would have made more sense – draw natives to cliff edge, create fog bank, rise into it, stun the natives while concealed in the fog, rescue Spock. But then they wouldn’t have violated the Prime Directive and there would be no demotion of Kirk, which truly wasn’t even needed.

I do like your retcon of drawing the natives away from the volcano because of the cold. That makes sense. Sadly, that isn’t what the filmmakers were thinking as shortly after the natives clear the area a giant glob of magma destroys the building they were just inhabiting, thus explaining to the audience why Kirk and McCoy were doing what they were doing (well it least it explains Kirk, why the chief medical officer is putting his life in jeopardy is another matter).

And that brings me to another point, if they were so concerned about the prime directive, why were McCoy and Kirk allowed to wear monastic robes, which reflected nothing like the attire the natives had ever seen before. What happened to the good old days of dressing up to resemble the natives? Oh right, then there would be no wetsuit to show off the actors physiques (such as they were) in the next scene.

406. Mike Barnett - August 19, 2014

404. Michael Hall
“Everyone always assumes the ship was built in space just because that makes sense.”

I don’t think it’s a stretch to have a starship assembled and launched from earth. Today’s spacecraft are done that way and I don’t see why a giant starship couldn’t be done the same way. Just disconnect all moorings while the thrusters are engaged and then transition to impulse engines and away she goes.

407. Curious Cadet - August 19, 2014

@384. Disinvited,
“Marcus would send other ships precisely because they did NOT know about the covert mission.”

Excellent point. But just FYI, this conversation had nothing to do with my original statement, which I just realized whatshername, in usual fashion, got completely wrong in her never ending zeal to disagree with just about everybody about everything. My original statement was in respect to TSFS — Starfleet knew exactly where Kirk was headed — Genesis — they could have intercepted the Enterprise anywhere along her course, even if the excelsior was the only other ship in Earth orbit at the time. But perhaps the other ships were all off in that troublesome Laurentian system. Either way, I wouldn’t have even known this had I not been trying to figure out why you were even discussing this as I make it a policy to otherwise skip over her typically ill-informed and confusing posts.

408. Curious Cadet - August 19, 2014

@393. Cygnus-X1,
“Is that what this has all been about?”

LOL, you know what the great irony here is? M J regularly accused numerous contributors of being sock puppets of each other, especially if someone disagreed with him. Entire reads were devoted to it! LOL people on this site are so hypocritical.

Sadly it seems we are back to demanding apologies from one another.

While I don’t always agree with you, and I didn’t always disagree with M J, the difference between the two of you couldn’t be more apparent. I’m frankly stunned by anyone who would rather hitch their wagon to him, rather than make amends with you.

409. TUP - August 19, 2014

@ Marja – if Paramounts assigned the writing task of the new film to Orci with the directive to write an epic with Shatner, Nimoy and Stewart in important roles and Orci’s reply was “ugh its gonna be tough to shoehorn those guys in”, I’d thank him for his work and move on to a better writer. I agree with you, dont shoehorn them in. Write a great story that uses them.

Is Harrison Ford shoehorned into Star Wars VII? I doubt it.

And to expand on my previous point about the movies looking good but having no substance, Cumberbatch is the perfect example. He’s a great actor, no doubt. First time I watched STID, I was almost mezmerized by his performance. But on repeated viewings, I became bored. It was obvious we were watching a great actor say words in a wonderful way. But those words meant nothing. All sizzle, no steak.

As for the THEME of STID. The theme was simple – it was a liberal commentary on the United States foreign policy. That was really obvious.

410. TUP - August 19, 2014

Keachick claims to be taking a deeper meaning from STID. That is hogwash. STID becomes worse, the deeper you try to go. You can invent all the silly deep emotional meanings you want but the movie doesnt hold up as anything more than a mindless action flick.

Also, I agree with (was it Cygnus) who doesnt watch the new movies. I own them. Watched them once. Even when I see them on TV, I glaze over them. But when the TOS films are on TV, even though I own them, I usually channel surf, pause on the TOS film and find myself sticking there and watching them.

You also can’t compare watchability of TOS episodes. Because to appreciate TOS you have to look past the 60’s technology. And I disagree with whomever said TOS wasn’t always a high-minded allegory. I havent seen all the episodes recently, but the first season for sure had a meaning in virtually every episode. Man vs Man. Man vs Machine. Man vs Himself. Always something underlying even if it was “light” and often a rehash of a prior “meaning”.

But all that is moot. Trek became known for the human allegory. And these two films have little substance. Surface emotion. Surface meaning. Its like a script machine wrote them not real life humans who should understand depth a lot better than they seemingly do.

Studios like these guys. They produce big blow em ups that are entertaining and marketable and on budget. But doesnt Orci strive for more than that? Wouldnt his greatest accomplishment be not the givens of Trek being a spectacle, but critics pointing to the quality and depth of the story?

STID was so bad in many ways that it made Trek09 worse. Thats an accomplishment I guess.

411. Disinvited - August 19, 2014

# 405. Curious Cadet – August 19, 2014

” Yeah, they could have just stunned them. There is at least one episode of TOS where the Enterprise stunned a group of people on the planet, as I recall (which was it?).” — Curious Cadet

One of the ones I already mentioned in regards to adjusting the ship’s phaser energy output: A PIECE OF THE ACTION.

There was a hit going on, on Kirk’s “piece” conference. He had Scotty stun everyone within a block radius of their building using the E’s phasers.

412. Disinvited - August 19, 2014

# 405. Curious Cadet – August 19, 2014

” And that brings me to another point, if they were so concerned about the prime directive, why were McCoy and Kirk allowed to wear monastic robes, which reflected nothing like the attire the natives had ever seen before. What happened to the good old days of dressing up to resemble the natives?” — Curious Cadet

I took away from the “Were you seen?” exchange between Kirk and Spock that Kirk and McCoy were not known to have left the ship with disguises such as the robes so they must have found them on the planet, i.e. the reason we don’t see the keepers’ of the scrolls in robes is because Kirk and McCoy stole their robes. As for why McCoy was there, I figured for his exobiology expertise in regards to his medical training, i.e. to determine that the volcano did indeed pose a danger to the natives and that hot lava wasn’t a dietary staple of theirs for example?

413. Harry Ballz - August 19, 2014

@409 + 410 TUP

TUP, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said in those two posts.

STID was SO bad that I find it actually diminished the goodwill I felt for ST09.

And I’ll tell ya, a movie has to be pretty horrible to erode your liking of the previous movie in the series.

414. Ahmed - August 19, 2014

It is official, Cumberbatch will plays Khan!
.
.
.
Shere Khan of the ‘The Jungle Book’ :-)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/benedict-cumberbatch-joins-jungle-book-726146

415. star trackie - August 19, 2014

#410 ” And I disagree with whomever said TOS wasn’t always a high-minded allegory. I havent seen all the episodes recently, but the first season for sure had a meaning in virtually every episode. Man vs Man. Man vs Machine. Man vs Himself. ”

You should watch the episodes again. And take off the rose colored glasses this time. Sure those traits could be found in some of Trek’s episodes. They could also be found each week on Bonanza and Gunsmoke. Even a Honeymoooner episode or Andy Griffith. It wasn’t lofty filmmaking, it was formula filmmaking 101. What set it apart was its surroundings and it’s creativity. Roddenberry sold it as a Western in space, and that’s what it was.
Most mainstream fans, those outside of fandom, remember the characters. The moments. They remember Spock and McCoy arguing. They don’t remember how bigotry was explored in Balance of Terror any more than some “lesson” on prejudice from some Bonanza episode where the town bully cuts off the pigtail of a Chinese immigrant. They remember how funny Hoss was.
Hard core fans, especially TNG fans like to think of Trek, in general, as some great revelation in entertainment, teaching tolerance and exploring the “human condition”. Well, it did that. Sometimes. And sometimes it was just about a bunch of likable sorts in some weird fantastic adventure. Trek into Darkness was every bit as good a slice of Star Trek as most of the episodes and even BETTER than some, Alternative Factor, Spock’s Brain and Is There In Truth No Beauty come to mind. TOS is not some great philosophical revelation about the “human condition”. Never has been. That’s just a sound-bite that has been used over and over again because it’s convenient.

416. TUP - August 19, 2014

Wrong @415. Especially when you read the background information. Those episodes might have come across lacking deep meaning, but it was there. I dont sit around watching TOS. I like them but the 60’s technology doesnt do it for me. So no rose coloured glasses here.

Its a moot point anyway.

417. Phil - August 19, 2014

The folks who keep preaching divisiveness continue to miss an important point – Trek is always more then the sum of it’s parts. When I see someone say current Trek isn’t Trek because (insert real or perceived slight here), and can then point out the exact same flaw elsewhere in the franchise, all that does is take away from what made Trek special. It’s a shame, because once the argument is invalidated, then all we get are personal attacks (well, you’re obviously not a true fan)….if STID wasn’t your cup of tea, there’s nothing wrong with that, but that doesn’t make it any less Trek then any of it’s other less then noteworthy episodes. Trek is in good hands with Bad Robot – if I have a complaint, Paramount never has an issue patting itself on the back and showcasing Trek as an achievement of the studio, it would be nice to see them promote this asset a bit more aggressively then they have been.

418. star trackie - August 19, 2014

#416 ” I like them but the 60′s technology doesnt do it for me. So no rose coloured glasses here.”

That means you’re watching from TNG tinted glasses, which is even worse. Completely different animals TOS and TNG. It’s no wonder you don’t like Bad Robot Trek, they are, indeed, nothing remotely similar to TNG. Nor should they be.

419. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

397. Basement Blogger – August 19, 2014

A couple of things. If you don’t like BR Star Trek, that’s fine. But I get tired of you bending facts to fit your narrative. Example: I point out themes in STID but you have to say no just to be negative about the film. It’s like I say something about STID and you’ve got to find some twist to make it negative. I could say Chris Pine has great hair and I’m sure you would find something to counter that just to be negative to the film.

This is simply not true. I don’t know how you could have this impression from my posts. I discussed VERY SPECIFIC reasons why find your alleged “themes” not to be well-developed themes or even themes at all. And I’ve gone on quite a bit about the things that I do appreciate in those movies. In fact, the ACTING has been one of the things that I have repeatedly said that I like.

But don’t expect your logic to go unchallenged.

I don’t have any problem with my logic being challenged, especially if it’s done constructively and I can learn something from it. But you are misrepresenting my logic and challenging the logic of a straw man, not mine. I don’t know how it could be more clear that my logic is not as you characterize it.

And what I get tired of is you consistently criticizing my motives and my character instead of my reasoning. I think you’ll find, if you bother to look, that I like to keep discussions friendly and as factually-based as possible.
You, on the other hand, have consistently attacked me on a personal level. This is something that you have in common with so-and-so and why I honestly thought you one of his aliases. If you’ll look at the discussions that I have with other people, you’ll notice that we disagree and argue about issues but we don’t attack each other personally. I’m trying to be nice to you here, but you’re not making it easy.

420. Michael Hall - August 19, 2014

@ 406 Mike Barnett–

“I don’t think it’s a stretch to have a starship assembled and launched from earth. Today’s spacecraft are done that way and I don’t see why a giant starship couldn’t be done the same way. Just disconnect all moorings while the thrusters are engaged and then transition to impulse engines and away she goes.”

LOL, if you say so. Maybe a launch track, a la WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE, would also help.

I think you missed my larger point, though. I don’t have any particular issue with the writers putting aside basic science, canon, or even common sense in the interest of a good story point, drama, or even a striking visual image. TOS and the sequel series were certainly not above doing such on occasion. My problem with the BR films is that they’re at it constantly. Given the vast amounts of time and money they have at their disposal as compared to the staff who put TOS together, it just comes across as plain sloppiness.

421. Marja - August 19, 2014

410 TUP, Keachick claims to be taking a deeper meaning from STID. That is hogwash. STID becomes worse, the deeper you try to go. You can invent all the silly deep emotional meanings you want but the movie doesnt hold up as anything more than a mindless action flick.

Y’know, you can be pretty flippin’ patronizing. Yes, Keachick — and I — and others — CAN invest all the deep emotional meanings we want. We are individuals with opinions trying to discuss something and you can’t dictate to us from your perch on high as if yours were the only reasonable point of view.

Everyone is here to express an opinion. Try expressing yours with a little less of a high-n-mighty [patronizing as f88k] tone, mmmmkay? Then I might continue reading your posts. We’ve agreed at times, but I won’t be spoken of, or to, as if I’m a silly eejit.

422. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

419. Cygnus-X1 – August 19, 2014

…instead of *just* my reasoning.

423. Marja - August 19, 2014

417 Phil, once the argument is invalidated, then all we get are personal attacks (well, you’re obviously not a true fan)….if STID wasn’t your cup of tea, there’s nothing wrong with that, but that doesn’t make it any less Trek then any of it’s other less then noteworthy episodes. Trek is in good hands with Bad Robot – if I have a complaint, Paramount never has an issue patting itself on the back and showcasing Trek as an achievement of the studio, it would be nice to see them promote this asset a bit more aggressively then they have been.

Thank you for saying this. I do get fed up with being patronized because I like ALL of Trek, even NuTrek, and accused of being silly/delusional/whatever.

And I agree most heartily that Paramount need to promote Trek VIGOROUSLY. Starting in Fall 2015 would be nice; it’ll be Trek’s 50th anniversary in the next year. They’ll have some film in the can, and I’m sure they can cobble a preview out of that, even if it’s just faces, the logo, and Giacchino’s terrific music.

Not sure why Paramount treats Trek as the red-headed stepchild — seems like it would make a hella lot more money, especially in the US and Europe, if they promoted it more.

424. TUP - August 19, 2014

@418 nope. Wrong again. I love all Trek. I have my favourites ofcourse (DS9) but I love them all. My point was to say I am not biased towards TOS. I dont want the new movies to be like TOS. I want them to be their own animal but I want them to BE Star Trek.

If you’re using James Kirk, I want him to be James Kirk. If you’re going to reinvent a character completely, call him something else. Khan was maybe the best example of this, of writing a character that was absolutely not Khan, and then calling him Khan.

425. Michael Hall - August 19, 2014

@ 415 Star Trackie–

“You should watch the episodes again. And take off the rose colored glasses this time.”

Thanks for the advice, but I can see those episodes pretty clearly (i.e. warts and all), thanks. And I still don’t agree with your premise that they were mostly just about entertainment, or that Roddenberry had nothing more on his mind than selling a Western where the principals rode a spaceship instead of a nag. Contemporaneous documents from the time tell a different story, as do the shows themselves. The series naturally had all of the trappings of the era in which it was produced–fisticuffs, high adventure, colorful costimes, etc.–but during the first season and much of the second (and, yes, even occasionally in the third) it was primarily a show about ideas. Not necessarily deep ideas, mind you, and the social messages could often be laid-on with a trowel. But they were clearly there–and your claim, correct or not, that general audiences don’t remember the show for them is irrelevant to that fact.

Your thesis about TOS seems to me to be more about justifying Bad Robot’s treatment of the property, rather than taking an honest look at TOS and the qualities which have enabled it to endure for five decades. It reminds me of George Lucas’ statement, after THE PHANTOM MENACE’s critical drubbing, that the original STAR WARS wasn’t much liked by the critics either. Both claims ignore history, and the facts.

(And I’ll agree with you about “Spock’s Brain” and “The Alternative Factor,” but for my money “Is There in Truth No Beauty?” is waaay better science fiction and drama than INTO DARKNESS. STID does have the better space jump, though.)

426. Marja - August 19, 2014

409 TUP, I got so peeved at your opinion about “silly reasoning” that I forgot to give my response to this, if you’re still reading my posts, that is:

write an epic with Shatner, Nimoy and Stewart in important roles and Orci’s reply was “ugh its gonna be tough to shoehorn those guys in”, I’d thank him for his work and move on to a better writer. I agree with you, dont shoehorn them in. Write a great story that uses them …. Is Harrison Ford shoehorned into Star Wars VII? I doubt it.

I doubt it too, because Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, and Mark Hammill played characters who are part of a continuing storyline in the Star Wars universe, and can thus pass the torch to the younger generation. Star Wars videos have played over and over in households throughout the world, many more households than Star Trek, regrettably. Trek generally deals with more complex moral themes and more technical [and technobabble, in after-TOS iterations] issues than Star Wars. Star Wars is based firmly in the myth of “The Man With a Thousand Faces.” It is a myth that runs through many cultures and thus has huge multi-cultural appeal.

Star Wars is also assisted by a HUGE merchandising success on the part of what we Trek fans used to sneeringly call LuCASHfilms. There are Star Wars sheets, pajamas, lunch boxes, dolls, costumes, blah, blah blah and this saturation of goods on the market has been happening for DECADES [as opposed to Trek's smaller merchandising efforts -- even back to Lincoln Enterprises days -- now revived and made more popular because of the Abrams films and the rise of Geek culture].

To bring back the other TOS characters, the entire movie would need to be constructed, IMO, around a convoluted MWI plot which would quadruple the science-fiction “sins” of Trek2009, to include the actors we all love. We Trekfans, that is.

To the general audience, they may still recognize Picard, because Stewart hasn’t aged so much in appearance. Dee Kelley has passed on to the stars, and so has James Doohan; so you’re speaking of including only octagenarians Shatner and Nimoy, and Stewart, whose age is around the same as Harrison Ford’s … and following fannish “original timeline characters” logic, why not Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula? And for that matter, Nichols, Koenig, and Takei?

The whole plot would be written TO include characters from another timeline, and would be addressed as a fan letter. To general audiences, it would be a mystery, or worse, an even more convoluted plot than we’ve had so far. I don’t think it would necessarily be a good movie in the hands of an experienced director and masterful writing team.

At the risk of insulting sensitive TOS fans, I think the idea of having Grandfather Tiberius Kirk and so on is more feasible, or cast the TOS actors as Admirals and advisors at SFHQ. I don’t think it’s reasonable to construct an entire movie around them. IMHO.

427. Ahmed - August 19, 2014

417. Phil – August 19, 2014

“It’s a shame, because once the argument is invalidated, then all we get are personal attacks (well, you’re obviously not a true fan)”

Funny, getting lectured by the same guy whose very first comment in any new thread is to complain about potential complainers!

Same guy who call the fans who disliked STID “Haters”, now complaining about personal attacks!

428. Ahmed - August 19, 2014

@426. Marja

“To bring back the other TOS characters, the entire movie would need to be constructed, IMO, around a convoluted MWI plot”

Or you could just have a group Skype call in the same manner of STID & Spock Skype session :)

429. Marja - August 19, 2014

There are some people here who are the only ones who know what Star Trek is.

Apparently.

In their opinion.

430. TUP - August 19, 2014

Marja – I enjoy your posts. Well thought out. Dont have to agree to respect the effort.

And I do disagree…lol

Again, if Im paramount and I assign Orci the task of writing an Epic using Shatner, Nimoy, Stewart (and that would be my directive, that it must include them but can include others if the story warrants it) and he said “well, I can do it but its going to be complicated and convoluted”, I would think ‘so what, so were the first two’ and then I’d thank him and dismiss him.

A GOOD writer can write a GOOD movie with those characters.

Off the top of my head and taking into account the first two films, I’d use Q. Now I am in no way suggesting that its the best solution, just one solution.

Off the top of my head, the “teaser” would be the Enterprise (newbies) in some sort of awesome, action packed adventure, they resolve it and as they are about to warp away they come across a distortion. Through the distortion comes a ship. An unrecognizable ship to our heroes but unmistakable to us – the Enterprise E (to be honest the Enterprise D works a lot better but then you have to use the entire TNG cast).

Picard appears on screen “Captain Kirk, you dont know me…but something you did caused a terrible event to be set in motion and we need your help to prevent the destruction of the Universe. Are you familear with Ambassador Spock? We need to find him, then to find a friend of his…the man you are to become Captain.”

Kirk: “How is it possible you’re hear Captain?” Camera pans out to reveal Q. Picard: “May I beam over, Captain? We have a lot to discuss.”

Intro.

Then they go get Spock Prime, go get Shatner (maybe bringing him in for the latter third of the film). You can spend very little time on back story and get right into the action, the chase (whatever it might be).

It can be done.

The use of the original Star Wars actors has nothing to do with what Star Wars is. Because 99% of the complaints when you mention using Shatner etc in a new Trek movie is “he’s so old. He’s so fat. he doesnt look like he did 30 years ago.” Why dont those complaints apply to Ford and Fisher etc? I know the Star Wars fans are different and only got those actors for three movies. But the point is the same. Good story = good reason to use them.

Hell, Stewart isnt that old. Stewart and Shatner would sell this film in ways Paramount cant imagine. During promotion period, imagine having those two, Nimoy, Pine, etc all out there shilling the flick? Fanatstic.

And as for the other original cast members, you dont need them and the fans wont care. If the story calls for them, great, use them. I think Frakes could *maybe* pass for his younger self if they wanted to do E-D which is more recognizable than E-E. But using E-E means you dont need anyone but Stewart. Dorn would be the next best well known TNG’er, him and Spiner. I think a cameo by Spiner would be okay using de-aging technology. In fact, one line explanation would make an aged Data make sense.

“:Why would they make an old android?”
Data: “My creator did not make my appearance that of an eldery man. In fact I have chosen to age my appearance as it naturally would if I were human.” Voila. Or sign Hiddleston to play Data (dead ringer).

There, off the top of my head.

431. Phil - August 19, 2014

@427. Well, to not put to fine a point on it, they are what they are. You can set your watch to them, it’s a non stop gripe fest attempting to twist the very core of what Trek is supposed to mean to promote their own agendas. So, yeah, when someone writes a novel relying on what they believe to be the stupidity of the reader to make their points, cherry picks comments, broad brushes entire segments of the fan base as simpletons, and is generally condescending and rude to anyone who doesn’t happen to agree with their own narrow vision of the franchise…yeah, those folks are complainers.

As you’ve seen fit to cherry pick – yeah, commenting on the complainers is kinda like commenting on the swallows returning to San Juan Capistrano. Even if the observation isn’t made, you know it’s going to happen, because with out exception it’s the exact same whine since BR came on board. Yeah, we get it – there isn’t a thing these guys will ever do right in your eyes, and you’ve only made that point a few thousand times now. It’s like listening to George complain about Shatner…everyone just rolls and thinks, for Christ sake, just give it a rest….knowing it’ll never really end. There’s been plenty of back and fourth about the pro’s and cons on STID, most of it has been very interesting….and then there’s that one little undercurrent of constant negativity that really causes me to wonder how petty some people can be. So, if you are going to try and marginalize me as a complainer….try a little harder next time.

432. Ahmed - August 19, 2014

@431. Phil

In other words, fans should just shut up & only express their appreciations and gratitude that we have a Star Trek movie in theaters every 3 to 4 years!

433. Keachick (Rose) - August 19, 2014

#407 – “But just FYI, this conversation had nothing to do with my original statement, which I just realized whatshername, in usual fashion, got completely wrong in her never ending zeal to disagree with just about everybody about everything.”

Whatshername is known here as Keachick, Rose or Kck (shorthand).

Yes, you are correct. I do disagree with the above statement you made. Then there were comments re sea monsters etc…The Nibiruns had a written language – think about it…sigh…:(

Right now, the cold mountains beckon me. I shall take wing. It is better than being around here at this moment.

One more thing – I realize it is belated –

@ Marja – Happy Birthday and many happy returns on the day (18 August) and always. Nice *knowing* you…:)!

434. Gary 8.5 - August 19, 2014

So Bob,Anything new to add ?

435. Keachick (Rose) - August 19, 2014

#352 – “It was always a dumb plot contrivance that only one ship was available to pursue the Enterprise … They knew exactly where Kirk was going after all.”

followed my post #362-
“I assume you are referring to STID and the “only one ship” was reference to the USS Vengeance captained by Admiral Marcus.”

I knew something didn’t read right. So, instead of either you, Curious Cadet or Disinvited, clarifying which movie the poster was referring to, you, Curious Cadet, choose to insult me with your post #407. This is just lazy and rude.

#416 – “Wrong @415. Especially when you read the background information. Those episodes might have come across lacking deep meaning, but it was there.”

Really? And what if it is someone like me who has never had much access until recently to all this “background information” that would help me grasp the “deep meaning” of TOS TV series?
This could be put another way – “Those BR movies might have come across lacking deep meaning, but it was there.”

Your statement at #416 reeks of hypocrisy…UGH!!!

436. Disinvited - August 19, 2014

# 435. Keachick (Rose) – August 19, 2014

” I knew something didn’t read right. So, instead of either you, Curious Cadet or Disinvited, clarifying which movie the poster was referring to…” — Keachick (Rose)

I don’t know what your meaning is here or what you are trying to imply but I had nothing to contribute towards msg 352 up to your reply in msg 362.

352 was in reply to Marja’s 344 which dealt with STID as Cygnus-X1 continued in his 363.

I was only addressing your STID flawed assertion in an STID discussing chain of replies that Marcus couldn’t have sent other starships after Enterprise because they didn’t know Enterprise was on a secret mission.

I don’t possess the ability to read minds so as to know that CC was ignoring your replies and thus NOT giving tacit approval to your interpretation in his silence. And likewise, I can’t raise an eyebrow and know what you don’t know so as to fill you in.

One thing seems evident: you and CC are not communicating and it is probably best that you not waste anymore of your time in so trying.

437. Ahmed - August 19, 2014

Another “brilliant” idea from China!

====================================
Chinese Theaters Test System of Onscreen Text Messages During Movies

Theaters in major Chinese cities have starting experimenting with “bullet screens” on which audiences can send text messages commenting on the film, which are then projected directly onto the screen.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/chinese-theaters-test-system-onscreen-726204

====================================

China, the gift that keeps on giving!!!

438. Marja - August 19, 2014

372 Cygnus, And the use of the phrase “altered the flow of time” by Alt Spock really confuses things, being that the “flow” or rate of time-passage has not been altered, but rather the universe(s) or “timeline” in which the events in the story are occurring is what has changed. So, the confusion about the time-travel issue is due to a poorly written explanation which is exacerbated by the pace at which the scene plays out.

Yeah, that definitely would have been a good “conference room discussion/ argument/ philosophical questions scene” for the Enterprise leadership. But, y’know, that might have taken all of three minutes or so and taken away from … of course … ACTION!
————————————————————————————————————
430 TUP 99% of the complaints when you mention using Shatner etc in a new Trek movie is “he’s so old. He’s so fat. he doesnt look like he did 30 years ago.” Why dont those complaints apply to Ford and Fisher etc?

Where you bean, garbanzo? Those were early complaints on the boards. “They’re so old! Fisher is so fat! Hammill looks nothing like!” Only Ford has managed to stay in good shape and still, bless him, looks like a senior citizen, albeit a verrry handsome one. [I think part of the reason he's still in reasonable shape is that he did action roles well into his middle age.]

Shatner, though he stays very fit in the equestrian way, strong core, strong legs, back, glutes, has gotten rather large ’round the middle and neck, one must admit. I heard some rumor a long time back about prednisone [prescribed for many physical conditions] but don’t know if it’s true. Perhaps it’s just his body type — he’s more of a mesomorph than a Nimoy-esque ectomorph. I know he certainly could perform in a movie, but fear that his appearance might prompt some irreverent fan of STIV to quote Scotty: “thar be whales here!”

At any rate the scenario you describe sounds like a good two-part TV episode, but I don’t think it’d sell as a movie …
—————————————————————————————————
433 Rose, Thank you for the birthday wishes. Alas, I am six days senior to our dear “Admiral Pike,” Bruce Greenwood, so am an Aug 6 baby, but I appreciate your good wishes!
—————————————————————————————————
437 Ahmed, re: more “brilliance” from China: Ugh, just …. ugh

439. BatlethInTheGroin - August 19, 2014

“Hopefully with Prime Kirk, Prime Spock and Prime Picard in meaningful roles!”

No, no, and no. I’d rather the film be good, not fan-pandering.

440. BatlethInTheGroin - August 19, 2014

#23: You’re being a melodramatic child.

441. Jonboc - August 19, 2014

437 “Theaters in major Chinese cities have starting experimenting with “bullet screens” on which audiences can send text messages commenting on the film, which are then projected directly onto the screen.”

Geez-Louise, why don’t they just leave the house lights up and pass out air-horns. I find it amazing that, somewhere out there, somebody not only thought up this idea… but someone else, holding the purse strings,gave it the green light!

442. boborci - August 19, 2014

434. Yes. I’ll add the 50th Anniversary movie;)

443. Harry Ballz - August 19, 2014

Bob, you sound like you’re planning on giving the next movie some extra “OOMPH” to commemorate the occasion.

Is that the case?

444. Valley Forge - August 19, 2014

Hey Bob, may I recommend, if you ever do bring William Shatner back to the role of Captain Kirk, that it be the future version of the alternate reality Kirk? Blue contact lenses included. That’d probably be the best way, as many fans want to see his return and many others wish for the Prime character to remain deceased, as he had a full human life cycle.

445. Harry Ballz - August 19, 2014

@444

So, if Bob elects to have it be Prime Kirk, thereby putting his own spin on it, would that then be a spin cycle?

Cue the tune “Dirty Laundry”

446. Keachick (Rose) - August 19, 2014

Sorry, Disinvited – It has become a bit convoluted.

No need for those rude remarks about me by Curious Cadet though.

Re: STID (no other Trek movie)
Marcus did not send ships because he wanted to keep the whole mission a secret. Remember that communications between the Enterprise and Starfleet were being jammed and the only person who appeared to know about Harrison/Khan’s recovery was Marcus himself. This can also explain and be explained by the absence of any other ships, other than the USS Vengeance. Kirk was half-expecting ships from Kronos, certainly not that big black ship coming from Federation space…

I believe that I agreed that Marcus could have sent ships out to capture the “rogue” Enterprise, but that is not what the film showed.

#438 – Marja – Oh dear… first I thought your birthday was 8 August (8/8) then 18/8. Finally, I have it correct and that you were born on 6 August. Good. Got it Yay! It is now firmly filed away for future reference. BTW, my better half’s birthday is on the 8th August, which I thought yours originally was, but not far off – just a couple of days.

Bruce Greenwood was born in the same year as my other half…so am I to conclude that you are actually two DAYS older than my Chris and six DAYS older than Bruce G? Not just a fine month but year as well…:)

August looks like a good month – Marja 6/8; kiwi Chris 8/8; Bruce Greenwood 12/8; Gene Roddenberry 19/8 and the other fine Chris 26/8.

Re: William Shatner physicality –
I think it is his body type that mostly accounts for how he looks as he has aged. Chris Pine’s body type is more like Leonard Nimoy’s – ectomorph – longer torso, leaner, with narrower shoulders. I think that Nimoy has not naturally filled out slightly because of ongoing health problems, which have had the reverse effect on his physique. Chris Pine seems to be a more muscular ectomorph in a healthy way than Leonard Nimoy.

It is not just the obese who are likely to suffer heart attacks, but also thin people like Nimoy who are also prone to heart attacks and strokes.

William Shatner appears to be a reasonably healthy older mesomorph, while Chris Pine appears to be a healthy younger ectomorph (although if Chris keeps up the smoking, his future internal health (despite outward appearances) may not be so good – ask Leonard Nimoy).

To sum up: the young prime (Shatner) Jim Kirk was a good looking healthy mesomorph with brown eyes and the young alternate (Pine) Jim Kirk is a good looking healthy ectomorph with blue eyes. Vivre la difference…:)!!!

What’s not to love?!

447. Keachick (Rose) - August 19, 2014

#444 – Gosh, let’s not have a William Shatner wearing blue contact lenses play an older alternate universe Jim Kirk. What – a young ectomorph grows into an older mesomorph? Not good, not good at all.

The closest that William Shatner can get to play any Kirk is by being a male relative to the alternate Jim Kirk. That overcomes the problem of the two actors having different body shape and eye colour.

There is no real reason why creating such a character could not work. It would take a bit of good scripting and a willingness on the part of Shatner and co…Bill, what about it? Do it for me, Rose(mary) who has *loved* you as a Kirk since *forever*!

448. Marja - August 19, 2014

441 Jonboc, LOL, I can hear the Vuvuzuelas now … every time the Enterprise scores a hit on the opposing ship …

445 Harry, per the fans on this site, Bob Orci might relate to the lines,
“kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down …”

link, if permitted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0xr31XbSOU
’cause it’s a demm good song :-)

446 Rose, no worries! You’re right, August is a great month o’ birthdays; Along with our Trek stars it also gave us Lucille Ball, David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson along with Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Your hub and I are in some great company!

449. Valley Forge - August 19, 2014

@447. Keachick (Rose)

That would work, for me. A relative would be interesting.

450. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

408. Curious Cadet – August 19, 2014

Cheers!

451. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

409. TUP – August 19, 2014

As for the THEME of STID. The theme was simple – it was a liberal commentary on the United States foreign policy. That was really obvious.

I agree that was one of the attempts at a theme. Marcus = Cheney; Klingons = Islamists; STID = 9/11-“Truther” speculation. But, there’s no real moral derived from this.

Referring back to the above definitions (and I should thank Basement Blogger for prompting me to look that up), the aforementioned does seem like the most prominent thematic concept, i.e. the most likely candidate for what STID is “about,” but it’s not a thematic statement.
There’s no moral takeaway from that “theme.”

Marcus is clearly a bad guy. He’s written as mustache-twirling villain who tries to deviously kill the good guys. Once the cat’s out of the bag, there’s no subtlety to the Marcus character at all, apart from what Peter Weller was able to add by his nuanced performance.

So, with regard to this attempt at a theme, the moral of the story is that Marcus is bad. There’s no arc. No development. Nothing to explain. Nothing for us to learn. Nothing to illustrate. Marcus is clearly in the wrong. He tried to kill the good guys! That’s the very definition of “wrong” in a movie like this! Marcus’s ends-justify-the-means deviousness is not much more a theme than a man walking up to an innocent woman on the street and murdering her for no particular reason. It’s easy to see that it’s “wrong.” So, what?

So, “Marcus is bad,” is really not substantial enough to be a thematic statement. And it’s not strong as a thematic concept, either, because the movie tries to be “about” something else. Note how nobody here, other than you, said that the theme of STID was the Marcus/Cheney/911-truther thing. As a thematic concept, it obviously wasn’t very strong.

STID also tries to be about “revenge.” Kirk’s epilogue pays lip service to, and tries to pass off as the movie’s thematic statement, a warning about self-consuming revenge. Khan takes revenge. Kirk wants revenge. And Spock goes after revenge. Revenge is a recurring thematic concept. One might fairly say that STID is “about” revenge. Even the title, “Into Darkness,” ties into revenge as the movie’s thematic concept. The big problem is that the movie says nothing meaningful about revenge. As Marja put it, “Revenge is bad…mmkay?” That’s pretty much the beginning and the end of it. There’s no illustration, no elucidation, nothing meaningful for the audience to relate to because Kirk abandons his whole “revenge” lust before he learns any lesson about it. It’s like a Kirk made a half-hearted effort at being revenge-driven, like Khan in TWOK, but then decided that it wasn’t for him before that motive caused too much inconvenience for anyone in the story.

So, long story short (too late): there’s no real thematic statement in STID. And the thematic concept is schismatic. The movie doesn’t know whether it wants to be about “revenge” or about a 9/11-Truther-styled indictment of “the ends justify the means” as a rationale. The end result is that the movie does neither of them well. Both thematic concepts are present, but neither bears out any meaning upon the overall story in the end. We get no lesson about revenge and no lesson about “the ends justify the means” as a rationale.

452. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

P.S.

Actually, I erred. Basement Blogger did list “War on Terror” among his candidates for the themes of the STID.

453. Cygnus-X1 - August 19, 2014

P.P.S.

re:As Marja put it, “Revenge is bad…mmkay?”

The movie doesn’t even say this cohesively, being that there’s no implied lesson for Spock’s vengeance. Nor, really, for Khan’s vengeance. Only Kirk, we are told (literally, by the character, himself), has learned a lesson about revenge. Though, as I mentioned, the epilogue is not supported by the story theretofore.

454. Keachick (Rose) - August 20, 2014

Seriously, Cygnus-X1 – what is the matter with you?

455. Keachick (Rose) - August 20, 2014

“Only remember this: to seek justice is a good and noble thing, to seek revenge out of hatred is something that will devour your very soul.” ―James Mace

This is what was starting to happen to Kirk after Pike had been killed and the Headquarters fired upon. He was aggrieved and angry; he ignored his doctor, his first officer, allowed his chief engineer to quit, simply because he wanted to get Harrison, fire on him, kill him, even if it meant firing on another planet. He was not being rational and Marcus used that grief and desire for revenge.

The story does support that Kirk learned a lesson about revenge fairly early on, but still had to deal with an admiral who turned out to be a warmonger who thought nothing of breaking rules to suit his own agenda – ie to bring the Klingon Empire to its knees. Why Marcus was so angry with the Klingons one can only conjecture – perhaps someone he loved was killed in one of those colonies that Marcus mentioned that the Klingons had attacked. Overwhelming desire for revenge played a part to the point where he even named the new warship, Vengeance.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201402/don-t-confuse-revenge-justice-5-key-differences

Then there is this – giving a different perspective:

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/08/176583581/op-ed-the-nonexistent-line-between-justice-and-revenge

Spock was as deeply affected by Pike’s death as Kirk was. Spock was with Pike as he died and felt what Pike felt through the mindmeld. Pike had also been Spock’s commanding officer. In fact, Spock was the one who queried the mission, instead seeking justice for Harrison/Khan’s crimes by upholding Starfleet regulations. Spock did not seek revenge, even though he had as much *reason* as Kirk did.

456. Cmd.Bremmon - August 20, 2014

On revenge – Spock gets revenge on Kahn at the end and that is celebrated; he even gets to save Kirk as a result of his revenge. Kahn got to get his revenge on Cheney, er, Marcus who is the real bad guy of the movie right? I don’t see the penalty for revenge in this movie. Ironically the only guy not seeking revenge was the bad crazy incompetent bad guy – Marcus.

On the theme – Honestly I think the theme of a “liberal commentary on the United States foreign policy” is what they were going for but it just wrecks the movie apart from the first viewing where you don’t really notice the plot holes. In retrospect it just feels like the writers today couldn’t make Kahn the villain he was in Space Seed or Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and only realized it half way through making the movie. If they can’t have “Wagon Train to the Stars”, Kahn can’t be a guy who because he is genetically superior he and his like should rule the galaxy and the Klingons can’t be the Soviet Union because it doesn’t fit the a liberal commentary on the United States foreign policy… why do TOS?

Marcus had to end up the bad guy even though he clearly was incompetent/deranged to fit the liberal statement – they can’t have the “Cheney” be competent after all, but wait, he has to be dangerous… He can’t have supporters so the Vengeance ends up with like 20 crew members. He can’t have any real defendable justification so the Klingons end up persona non grata on their own homeworld. He has to be super evil though so he decides to blow up the Enterprise even when it makes little to no sense and the Enterprise can’t put up a fight. Then they throw in Kahn and have to reduce him to poor super soldier misused by evil Cheney (a major waste of a legendary villain) and it just snowballs.

Kahn SAVES a young girl in this movie because Kahn is not allowed to be as bad as Marcus/Cheney. Is this the same guy in Space Seed/TWOK who believes he is genetically superior than everyone and thus deserves to rule. Kahn just doesn’t fit into the narrative and I don’t see why they couldn’t have left him out and saved him for a movie hat can make him an epic villain like Space Seed or St II:TWOK. I think the biggest plot hole then comes at the end – Kahn kills the bad guy and to prevent the audience from realizing that the have accidentally made Kahn the hero he has to fly his ship into San Francisco for NO REASON. Let’s be honest – the Kahn of TWOK on killing Marcus would have proceeded to take the Vengeance and TAKE OVER EARTH.

Why does Kahn run to the Klingon Empire if he was fighting them this whole time. Could they have Kahn collaborate with the Klingons (Klingons and Kahn team up to destroy the Federation?) – oh wait… while that would be cool it wouldn’t fit into the liberal commentary… er, let’s make it so you can fly all the way to Qo’nos.

The alternative theme is that in the rush for the liberal commentary Kahn ends up the poor super solider misused by the government and Star Fleet ends up the bad guys to the point the entire media narrative makes no sense to the point Earth is a couple minutes from Qo’nos and one can fly all the way to the Klingon homeworld.

457. Cmd.Bremmon - August 20, 2014

@ 455
I don’t see Marcus as going for revenge against the Klingons but in going too far and breaking all the rules to stop the enemies of the Federation. I mean did the Klingons really do anything to avenge? I just don’t get that in the movie.

458. Curious Cadet - August 20, 2014

@457. Cmd.Bremmon,
“I don’t see Marcus as going for revenge against the Klingons”

He’s not. That’s a complete misread of the movie, or more likely a pro-Abrams retcon doing the writer’s job and filling in the plot holes. But you’re right, it’s NOT in the movie, nor the point.

However, I will say this, and while it’s not explicitly stated, or explored in the movie, Marcus does seem to be seeking revenge against Khan. I’ve said before when he shows up to confront the Enterprise, Marcus strikes me as a jilted lover, hell-bent on getting back at Khan for abandoning him, turning on him, and making him look like a fool — why else the deluded fire-all-72-torpedoes-filled-with-supermen-at-Kronos plan? That’s the kind of thing an ex-lover does, irrational, personal yet “poetic” attacks intended to settle the score, like boiling your pet bunny on the stovetop, etc. So, for me, there is some revenge motive there for Marcus. It’s just unfortunately, as pointed out by others, extremely out of character for Marcus. And I realize that I may be just as guilty of doing the writers job here with that explanation, but I can assure you it’s for no other reason than trying to make sense out of this film. What I’m not doing is completely fabricating a “what-if” scenario about Marcus’ past which has nothing to do with anything depicted in the movie to justify his actions.

459. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

456. Cmd.Bremmon – August 20, 2014

On revenge – Spock gets revenge on Kahn at the end and that is celebrated; he even gets to save Kirk as a result of his revenge. Kahn got to get his revenge on Cheney, er, Marcus who is the real bad guy of the movie right? I don’t see the penalty for revenge in this movie. Ironically the only guy not seeking revenge was the bad crazy incompetent bad guy – Marcus.

That’s right. Well said.

There is no real penalty for revenge and “something about revenge” is not really the moral of the story (i.e. the thematic statement of STID). The only character whose lust for revenge doesn’t entirely pay off, one might say, is Khan.

Khan does succeed at taking revenge upon Star Fleet—he kills and wounds a bunch of the top brass, most importantly, Marcus—but he also gets caught. Perhaps if Khan had simply asked Star Fleet for help and protection (even from a safe distance) from the twisted Admiral Marcus, who’d been using him as slave labor, Marcus’s unlawful activities might have been exposed and maybe he’d have been imprisoned. Then, Khan would have had a better chance of getting his 72 buddies thawed out and they could all retired to Tahiti or Risa or where ever while they plotted to reconquer the Earth. Or, at worst, Khan could have lived out his own life as a celebrity. So, revenge doesn’t entirely work out for Khan.

But, even so, the story obviously wasn’t “about” Khan’s revenge (like TWOK was). And it wasn’t really about Kirk’s revenge, as the good Captain gives up on that 1/3 of the way into the story. And it wasn’t about Spock’s revenge, as this was glorified in the movie and the story says absolutely nothing about it.

We’re really homing in there on exactly why people got the impression of STID as “muddled” and “a mess.” The movie simply doesn’t know what it wants to be about. The clearest thing about this movie, if you’ll pardon the irony, is that the writers had no clear vision for this particular story. Apart from “because that’s what they were hired to do,” the writers had no clear purpose for why they were telling us this particular story.

460. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

458. Curious Cadet – August 20, 2014

Though, I do see your point about Marcus.

I suppose the irrationality of his “torpedoes up the a$$!” mustache-twirling plot can be regarded as vengeful. And I suppose that’s what gets him discovered by Kirk. Though we really are doing the writers’ jobs for them here, because there’s absolutely no indication of a revenge motive for Marcus in the movie. We’re filling in a big blank and trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make much sense on its face with respect to the Marcus character. And, Marcus’s plot obviously doesn’t work out for him, either. But, also obviously, the movie is not about Marcus’s revenge.

461. Boborci - August 20, 2014

How cute that some of you want your morals handed to you on a platter — like South Park;)

462. Curious Cadet - August 20, 2014

@459. Cygnus-X1,
“Then, Khan would have had a better chance of getting his 72 buddies thawed out and they could all retired to Tahiti or Risa or where ever while they plotted to reconquer the Earth.”

Good point. But of course none of that is what motivates Khan (well except for the plotting to re-conquer Earth part). I take it from Space Seed that Khan is circumspect of revealing his true identity because he knows he’s guilty of war crimes. STID goes so far as to retcon and clearly spell out that Khan was a genocidal mass murderer (something Space Seed clearly does not intend to support), just in case we became so sympathetic from Khan’s crocodile tears earlier that we forgot he was supposed to be the real bad guy. So Khan too has become a black and white moustache twirler himself. I don’t necessarily see Khan going to the “proper authorities”, but who knows, he’s a master manipulator and tactician, perhaps that’s exactly the approach he would have taken.

Unfortunately, it seems all Orci took away from Khan was the cartoonish persona depicted in TWOK, a movie in which Khan was rightfully consumed by revenge, and presumably driven insane during his ordeal on Seti Alpha V. The Khan we are presented in STID should have been the cool, calculating, intelligent character we saw in Space Seed. The “peaceful” leader of 1/4 of Earth’s population in one of the most volatile areas of the world would not be possible by a revenge seeking madman. We saw little of this Khan in STID, most likely because the movie lost focus and couldn’t decide whose story to tell. So we got a thin veneer of character from each of them … only the talent of the actors themselves gave us any depth onscreen. So we are told Khan’s true nature is to revert to a revenge driven madman when challenged. But based on what they showed us it makes no sense. Khan knows Spock would never blow up his people, so given his superior intellect, he should have realized he was double crossed, even before he asked for active torpedoes to be beamed over. But considering the spectacular crash we saw and the awesome destruction caused, it’s hard to believe any ship, including the Vengeance could have survived, much less in one piece. Since it did and Khan designed it, shouldn’t he have known it would survive and his best chance for survival being to crash land it in an area where he could get away safely? But instead he seeks revenge, all but assuring he might die and have no ability to get true vengeance, much less rescue his crew and fulfill his mission of “mass genocide”.

463. Cmd.Bremmon - August 20, 2014

@ 458 / 460
I see Marcus as being like Valaris and Cartwright in Star Trek VI – they think that they are “saving Starfleet” as opposed to seeking any real revenge. They are crazy, delusional, warmongering, etc as opposed to vengeful in my humble opinion.

As for the torpedo plan I thought that was just to silence Kahn after which he let’s the crazy conspiracy out of the bag as opposed to any revenge; if he sends a starship in then they have the opportunity to capture Kahn. Side note – when watching the first time thought that sending a starship to Qo’nos would potentially lead to war but obviously you can walk right in no problem by the end of the movie.

With Kahn does he really do anything wrong up until firing on the Enterprise after getting the torpedo tubes. If you take TWOK and “timeline discrimination” out of the picture this Kahn 1) bombs an evil Starfleet bent on war potentially preparing for genocide 2) saves a young girl that Starfleet can but won’t save 3) saves the Starfleet crew sent to arrest them on Qo’nos 4) runs away outside the Federation where do they really have any jurisdiction to arrest him? 5) Kills the super evil crazy Starfleet Commander who is the real bad guy in the show.

Indeed the only reason Spock beams over torpedoes (the first strike in the Kahn/Enterprise conflict?) is because of Old Spock telling him that his Kahn was a crazy dictator and the “worst threat, etc”. Potentially Kahn is even justified with an added sensor scan on firing on the Enterprise since they didn’t return his crew (his FAMILY right?).

This to me just isn’t the Kahn who thought he was destined to rule the cosmos because he was genetically superior and really only lost because he hated Kirk for killing his wife. Here he drives into San Francisco when Marcus is dead for no apparent reason while his “family” is all alive on the Enterprise let alone any strategy for galactic domination. Quite frankly, new Kahn combined with incompetent crazy Marcus equated to some dull villains compared to say TWOK.

464. Phil - August 20, 2014

@461. Come on Bob, it isn’t any worse then people developing their political positions from bumper stickers or internet memes…..

465. D D - August 20, 2014

Hopefully an original action packed story that follows the original series theme of boldly going where no man (one) has gone before, just like the first Star Trek Reboot. Please no more Prime Spock, or Kirk or whoever or the retelling of an old story. They have had their time and it’s time for the new cast to stand by themselves.

466. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@ 461. Boborci – August 20, 2014

“How cute that some of you want your morals handed to you on a platter — like South Park;)”

Yeah, too bad that you have to deal with “lazy viewers”!

467. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

461. Boborci – August 20, 2014

How cute that some of you want your morals handed to you on a platter — like South Park;)

Again with the my movie is just too subtle and smart for you attitude?

Bob, STID is ALL ABOUT spoon-feeding.

You re-advance Kirk to the captaincy 10 min after you demote him so that we don’t have to worry that Captain Kirk might not be captain any more. Your Admiral Marcus character was about as black-hatted, mustache-twirling a villain as they come in Hollywood movies. You introduce the idea of Kirk struggling with his desire for revenge, but then you just drop that theme 1/3 of the way into the story. And we scarcely ever have to go more than a few minutes throughout the course of the movie before we get an action scene—because that’s what we need to keep us interested, right? Because we’re all children and we lose interest if things aren’t moving around enough on-screen.

I don’t want morals and concepts necessarily handed to me on a platter nor spoon-fed to me, but I do want them to be well thought out and DEVELOPED throughout the story. I want meaningful themes and concepts that are well illustrated. I want the movie to have a higher purpose than just financial and career interests. Yes, you can do both. There’s no shortage of examples.

468. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

P.S.

I should say that I want the movie to at least seem like it has a higher purpose. I want it to at least seem like the people telling the story are trying to communicate something meaningful, something that is important to them.

469. Cmd.Bremmon - August 20, 2014

@461
Bob, ironically I think trying to serve morals handed on a platter is what wrecked STID movie.
ST 2009 for me was awesome because it was a fun movie and you let the morals fall whey may just like TOS. Yes in TOS there were morals but they derived from the action and in general then don’t end up black/white (“I’m a soldier, not a diplomat!”.
STID it felt forced on the moral front to the point I think it really left massive plot holes. For the first viewing I thought it was very entertaining though. My question is was there ever a script where the augmented Klingons resurrected Khan; it just seemed like there was a script there borrowed from that all the Qo’nos elements came from?
Also next movie, please, please, please… let’s see the Enterprise as a heavy crusier. It can get crippled, destroyed whatever, but at least let her hold her own. I submit it would be more entertaining to watch a D7 face off against the Enterprise than another supership cripple the Enterprise in a shot (Balance of Terror vs. ANY TNG episode).

470. TUP - August 20, 2014

I didnt hear much complaining about the Star Wars actors but I’m not usually on the internet Wars boards. But Disney did the right thing – hired trainers to work with them. Fisher and Hamil both got in better shape. Certainly good enough shape to pass for 60-something versions of their characters.

William Shatner could drop 20 lbs. But I dont really care either way. He’s 80 whatever years old.

Ill take him anyway they can get him, but making him ANYTHING but Prime Kirk is just so short-sighted in my opinion.

471. PaulB - August 20, 2014

#461 boborci: No, we want our morels on a platter.

We want our morals woven skillfully into the fabric of a compelling narrative that explores ethical concepts rather than merely stating that such things exist, while simultaneously respecting basic science and striving to offer us new frontiers and unseen vistas explored by intriguing characters.

You’ll deliver that, right? The compelling narrative, not the platter of mushrooms. :)

472. boborci - August 20, 2014

469. Heavy Cruiser. Yes!

473. boborci - August 20, 2014

471.

narrative seemed clean to me.

Kirk ordered to illegally kill terrorist.

Kirk defies orders.

Finds out terrorist motives not as simple as he thought.

etc…

How is that not clean? Are you sure your political views aren’t clouding your judgement? ;)

474. Keachick (Rose) - August 20, 2014

So are the themes and morals too messy and convoluted to properly understand or are they being spoon fed to “lazy viewers” as Ahmed describes others as being? Speak for yourself, Ahmed…oops, my apologies, you were speaking for yourself…:/

Apparently, according to the critics here, it is both…LOL

“So, for me, there is some revenge motive there for Marcus. It’s just unfortunately, as pointed out by others, extremely out of character for Marcus.”

This is the first time that we have met this character Marcus. How do you know what is “extremely out of character for Marcus”? Not everyone is open/out there with any desire for vengeance.

I agree that Marcus was more about “saving Starfleet”, “protecting the Federation from the enemy” (namely Klingons in this case) and considered that offence was the best defence. He was prepared to break rules, betray the trust of his own and even destroy those who served under him and he, as the Head of Starfleet, felt that it was quite *legitimate* for him to behave this way, but not for others.

475. TUP - August 20, 2014

@451 Cygnus – a great post again!

They missed a great opportunity to actually say something. Im a bit tired of the anti-conservative agenda in Hollywood so the War on Terror plot was a bit a let down anyway but at least in that there are lessons to be learned. Trek needs to provide a message without preaching. This movie is, if you can find the message, preaching.

Khan shouldnt have been in it at all. (It pains me to say that as I was one of the vocal supporters of using Khan but this story was no good for him at all).

Marcus should have been elevated. For me, Peter Weller owned this film. We can talk about the talents of BC all we want but Weller was INTERESTING every time he was on film. He speaks in such an “easy commanding” manner. He’s almost stilted with just a touch of the right kind of arrogance and emotion. When he called Kirk “son”, I loved it. It conveyed a lot in one word and the inflection he used. I wouldnt be surprised if “son” wasnt even in the script and Weller added it.

As an aside, as goofy as it might have been, I desperately wanted Marcus to say “Dead or alive, you’re coming with me”.

Anyway, Marcus as a “shade of grey” bad guy, Pike as the peace lover. Both as father figures in a way to Kirk, both pulling him in either direction. Both making reasonable points. Both being sort of right and sort of wrong. Leaving Kirk to HAVE to make up his own mind, make his own decision, decide whats right and wrong for him. Through this, we might have been shown the defining moment that made James Kirk the man we all know him to come.

They blew it with the terrible Khan angle and the fact they are incapable or too lazy to write depth. They kept it very surface emotional instead of exploring deep meaning.

476. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@ 474. Keachick (Rose) – August 20, 2014

“or are they being spoon fed to “lazy viewers” as Ahmed describes others as being? Speak for yourself, Ahmed…oops, my apologies, you were speaking for yourself…:/”

Ever hear of sarcasm ? Perhaps it is hard a concept for you to grasp !

The term “lazy viewer” was coined by none other than our dear friend Bob Orci

=====================
740. boborci – September 29, 2013

“When someone says “lazy writing” my first thought is “lazy viewer” who has to have everything spelled out for them, while simultaneously complaining that the movie us not mentally challenging.”

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/21/star-trek-has-called-me-and-im-going-to-serve-bob-orci-talks-trek-on-mission-log-podcast/

477. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@474. Keachick (Rose)

“Apparently, according to the critics here, it is both…LOL”

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL OMG, that is so FUNNY!!!!!!!!

478. Keachick (Rose) - August 20, 2014

“When someone says “lazy writing” my first thought is “lazy viewer” who has to have everything spelled out for them, while simultaneously complaining that the movie us not mentally challenging.” Bob Orci

This is exactly what many posters had been and are doing here on this site and elsewhere as well, hence my comment above.

No, sarcasm is not difficult for me to grasp. I have been known to use sarcasm myself on occasion, except that I was not being overly sarcastic with regards to your comments. You are always going on about lazy writing by Bob Orci and co., yet I find some of the comments made by you and others here really lazy. Some insult my intelligence and general sensibilities.

Glad you found my comment so FUNNY!

479. Cmd.Bremmon - August 20, 2014

@473
Bob:
” narrative seemed clean to me. Kirk ordered to illegally kill terrorist.
Kirk defies orders. Finds out terrorist motives not as simple as he thought. etc…”

Where this falls apart is the use of Khan and how much plot modifications were required to make it so he has “terrorist motives not as simple as he (Kirk) thought” i.e. has some justification. Khan’s motive in Space Seed is that he is genetically superior and thus should rule to the point Starfleet bans genetic modifications and is letting that girl die in the movie. You take this away to give Khan has some justification because the big bad guy is Marcus and make it so that Khan has to brought to justice. In doing so you dumb down Khan…. he is a sympathetic freedom fighter up until he kills the bad guy and then in order to give Kirk something to do you have him do a kamikaze into San Francisco for no good reason. Khan in TWOK blows himself up rather than surrender; if Kirk in bringing Khan to justice ends up having to kill Khan as in TWOK is that illegal because he didn’t bring him to justice? A better choice then would have been say Robert April like the comics; a real misunderstood terrorist/freedom fighter. That would have worked better – the “terrorist” could have had a noble motive and you could have really made Marcus the big bad guy like you want (Star Trek Insurrection for instance, boring as hell, but you could have gone that route).

The Khan of Space Seed/TWOK really would have used Starfleet or the Klingons to take over and not vis versa; the fun in watching him there is that he is a master strategist to the point he almost beats Captain Kirk and Spock. When you watch Space Seed are you upset that Khan wasn’t given a civilian trial and was instead marooned by a military tribunal? No – because he tried to kill everyone and take over the ship (although in STID he does far worse bombing cities) – also adding excitement to the Trek universe in that a Starship Captain far from SFHQ has to make the call of who lives/dies.

480. PaulB - August 20, 2014

#473 boborci: You mistook my comment. I wasn’t commenting on STID. I was merely stating hopes for Star Trek the 13th. No retroactive commentary implied.

Are you sure your hypersensitive ego isn’t showing through? :)

481. Keachick (Rose) - August 20, 2014

#479 – Where, in STID, does it intimate that the girl is dying because genetic modification is not allowed anymore? We are not told what the girl is dying from. Perhaps it is an illness that came from another world and the inoculation failed…I don’t know…anything could the cause for her fatal illness. It is just that this Khan thinks that a particular component contained in his blood will save the little girl.

Khan in Space Seed was not marooned by a military tribunal. He agreed with the conditions that TOS Kirk put before him – that Khan and his people would make a home for themselves on the planet found for them. It would be challenging but Khan and his crew felt up to it.

In TWOK, Khan felt betrayed by Kirk, because he did not check on them and believed, because of this, that Kirk was responsible for the death of his wife. Khan’s desire for vengeance was not particularly rational, partly because it prevented him, with the crew, from taking advantage of the fact that they now had a ship that could take them anywhere, as Joachim pointed out…Khan stole the Genesis device, which is what had Kirk go after Khan. They were after each other for different reasons.

Yes, the BR writers could have gone this route, that route, the route over there, the route over here, but that is all moot.

STID’s Harrison/Khan did not have worthwhile motives at all for having Section 31 blown up or firing on SFHQ. Khan thought that Marcus had killed his crew, so Khan exacted revenge on Starfleet installations. Curiously, they were small, as in 42 killed in London and probably about 20-30 people dying in SFHQ, making a total of 72! The “eye for an eye” concept?

However, what Khan informed Kirk and others was that the Head of Starfleet was holding 72 people in cryostasis and threatening to kill them if their *leader* ie, he/Khan, did not do as Marcus wanted, something that definitely went against what Kirk and co. had been lead to believe Starfleet stood for. Khan alerted them also to the fact that Marcus was pursuing his own warmongering agenda and taking advantage of his position to do unsanctioned and illegal activities. It was this that Marcus did not want Kirk or anyone else (other than those “in the know”) to find out about.

One thing more – stop mentioning TWOK and then bitching about how alike STID is to TWOK and how unlike STID is to TWOK. This is as bad as complaining that STID’s story is a convoluted mess, while, at the same, complaining that it had morals etc placed on a platter because it was so simple, dumbed down.

God – give me strength – such twisted thinking.

@Bob Orci – how are you holding up?

482. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

475. TUP – August 20, 2014

@451 Cygnus – a great post again!

They missed a great opportunity to actually say something. Im a bit tired of the anti-conservative agenda in Hollywood…

***

Tired of the anti-conservative agenda? Cygnus would skewer Republicans, conservatives, and Tea Partiers like Vlad the Impaler if it was legal.

Hilarious to see you two getting along so well!

See? All Trek fans need to overcome their politics is a common enemy to unite them. Which in this case appears to be Bob Orci.

483. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 20, 2014

345. Vultan – August 17, 2014

“I didn’t think there was anything wrong with Kirk putting his life on the line to save the ship, or even bringing him back from the dead. What I didn’t like, and I think this is the main gripe of most fans/critics, is the WAY they did it, repeating the famous TWOK reactor scene nearly beat for beat.

They needed to be more creative than that.”

– – –

Well put!

——-

357. TUP – August 18, 2014

“The starting point for the next film should have been a Paramount directive to “celebrate the 50th anniversary with an epic.”

– – –

One thing big productions often screw up, is the big EPIC picture.
No pressure there, huh?

—–

475. TUP – August 20, 2014
@451 Cygnus – a great post again!

“They missed a great opportunity to actually say something. Im a bit tired of the anti-conservative agenda in Hollywood so the War on Terror plot was a bit a let down anyway but at least in that there are lessons to be learned. ”

– – –

Anti conservative agenda? What conservative aganda? I seriously do not think the political actions taken these past 12 years as being anything conservative.

Please reword. : 0 : )

484. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@ 482. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

“See? All Trek fans need to overcome their politics is a common enemy to unite them. Which in this case appears to be Bob Orci.”

Bob the uniter :-)

485. Keachick (Rose) - August 20, 2014

“What I didn’t like, and I think this is the main gripe of most fans/critics, is the WAY they did it, repeating the famous TWOK reactor scene nearly beat for beat.”

Actually that is what I liked about the scene, with the twist being that Kirk had done the self-sacrificing instead of Spock in this alternate universe.

I am not a big fan of the Khan scream though. I could understand why Spock may have felt that need, but I would have preferred a big “Noooo!” Anyway, the scene did not happen quite beat for beat because that yell should not have been there.

Kirk in TWOK screamed “Khan” under slightly different circumstances. Kirk had an out – “days meant hours, hours meant minutes”… nuSpock in STID had no out.

486. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

476. Ahmed – August 20, 2014
473. boborci – August 20, 2014

Bob, the whole “lazy viewer” notion, us wanting “morals handed to us on a platter,” etc. in response to the issues being raised here, is really baffling.

Look at the degree of detail that we’ve gone into here analyzing your movie and pinpointing exactly where the problems are. Do you honestly believe that all of the issues raised about STID—the logic problems, the convoluted plot, the lack of a clear, well-developed thematic statement for the story, the lack of character arcs—are attributable to us being too intellectually lazy and not sufficiently intelligent to understand your movie? Do you really believe that your movie was just too smart for us?

And, if so, how could you possibly believe this given the degree of detailed analysis that we’ve gone into here? Do you really believe that the problem is that we just don’t want to put forth the effort to THINK?

And, is that the problem with all of the critics, too? Even one of the fan film producers—who has produced a very impressive short and obviously knows what he’s doing—has remarked that STID was “a mess.” Is everyone who found problems with STID just too intellectually lazy and not smart enough for your movie?

487. Jonboc - August 20, 2014

#481 “God – give me strength – such twisted thinking.”

LoL I feel your pain! Reading these forums can be a challenge at times. It really is like politics…the detractors of Trek Into Darkness always feel they need to take the opposing side, even if it contradicts an earlier stated position…why? No good, rational, reason…just because the other side has to be wrong…whether they are or not! Have mercy! lol

488. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

475. TUP – August 20, 2014

As an aside, as goofy as it might have been, I desperately wanted Marcus to say “Dead or alive, you’re coming with me”.

Ha!! That would have been hilarious.

489. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

462. Curious Cadet – August 20, 2014

The Khan we are presented in STID should have been the cool, calculating, intelligent character we saw in Space Seed. The “peaceful” leader of 1/4 of Earth’s population in one of the most volatile areas of the world would not be possible by a revenge seeking madman. We saw little of this Khan in STID, most likely because the movie lost focus and couldn’t decide whose story to tell.

Two good points here.

Yes, the movie lost focus and pretty much gave up on all of the character arcs.

And, it didn’t occur to me, but you’re right about how Khan should have been portrayed. This is an important point regarding the internal logic of the story: Even though STID is set in the BR Alternate Timeline, Khan and his buddies were frozen BEFORE this timeline split off from the Prime Timeline. So, I see no reason why a man frozen in the 1990s should be any different when he’s thawed out in the Alt Timeline as opposed to being thawed out in the Prime Timeline (TOS Space Seed). He’s the same man in both Timelines because the events which have served to differentiate the Alt Timeline from the Prime Timeline, as far as I can tell, would not have affected a man in suspended animation.

So, at the moment that Khan is unfrozen in the STID backstory, he’s the EXACT same man who was unfrozen in TOS Space Seed. The character differentiation begins after he’s unfrozen, consequent to the environment that he’s exposed to and so forth.

So, while STID’s Khan had different experiences (than TOS Space Seed Khan) after being unfrozen—being forced by Marcus into slave labor for a year or so while his were buddies held hostage—I don’t see how these events could have such an effect upon Khan’s personality that would lead him to be so different than he was in TOS Space Seed.

In Space Seed, Khan is a confident, uber-masculine leader of men. Manipulative, but mature. He has a hot temper, but he’s generally a strategically-minded, rational thinker and actor.

In this light, Khan’s antics in STID don’t make much sense.
He pointlessly attacks Star Fleet HQ, thereby harming his chances of getting what he wants most—his 72 frozen buddies. And his crybaby scene in the Enterprise brig also seems rather out of character. Space Seed’s Khan, after escaping From Section 31, would have used his charm, charisma and strategic-mindedness to persuade Star Fleet that Marcus is a menace who should be locked up. Then the manipulative Khan would have further tried to persuade Star Fleet to unfreeze his 72 buddies and let them go live in peace somewhere. “Surely a society as progressive and civilized as the Federation wouldn’t leave 72 human beings frozen indefinitely,” Khan would argue.

490. boborci - August 20, 2014

475.

“this movie is, if you can find the message, preaching.”

do you see the logical contradiction in that statement?

491. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

482. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

Stop trying to sow discord. I can appreciate the complaint about overly preachy Hollywood movies. If a theme has value, it can stand on its own merits without the movie or TV show necessarily having to tell you, “This is good. This is how you should think.” Personally, I didn’t find STID overly preachy, but I did get very frustrated and annoyed, for example, with VOYAGER in that respect.

492. boborci - August 20, 2014

479

this aint “Space Seed.” It’s a different universe.

493. boborci - August 20, 2014

488

exceptwe know therewas no K in the90’s. reality caught up with Canon.

494. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

491. boborci – August 20, 2014

479 this aint “Space Seed.” It’s a different universe.

You’re missing the point. Re-read my post #488.

It’s a different universe, but Khan was frozen BEFORE the Alt Universe existed—before the Alt Timeline split off from the Prime Timeline. The differences in the universe have been occurring outside of Khan’s cryotube while he’s been in suspended animation, not interacting with anyone or experiencing anything outside of his cryotube.

492. boborci – August 20, 2014

488 exceptwe know therewas no K in the90′s. reality caught up with Canon.

What do you mean there was no Khan in the 90s? In Space Seed we learn that Khan was at his height of power in the 1990s.

From: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

By 1993 a wave of the genetic “supermen”, including Khan, had simultaneously assumed control of more than 40 of Earth’s nations. From 1992 to 1996 Khan was absolute ruler of more than one-quarter of Earth’s population, including the regions of Asia and the Middle East. Considered “the best of tyrants”, he severely curtailed the freedoms of his subjects, but his reign was an exception to similar circumstances in Earth history – lacking internal massacres or wars of aggression….

495. Mike Barnett - August 20, 2014

492. boborci – August 20, 2014
“exceptwe know therewas no K in the90′s. reality caught up with Canon.”

Whoa! You just blew my mind!

496. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 20, 2014

Perhaps bob orci is sayin that there was Another incusion in our own past.

I see another TrekMovie headline coming outta’ this one.

497. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

490. Cygnus-X1 – August 20, 2014

482. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

Stop trying to sow discord.

***

What is it that you think you are doing with your endless beating of a dead horse, Mr. Peacemaker? It’s hard for me to fathom the unhappiness you must have to unceasingly hound Bob Orci as if every time is the first time.

Do you know how to relax? There’s a new movie coming out, man. In no time at all you will have all new bad things to say about Bob Orci and his movie. Why even wait? You can get started crafting those bad reviews right now.

498. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 20, 2014

493. Cygnus-X1

Perhaps there is a gap in StarFleet’s knowledge of the Earth’s relative recent history. Perhaps Khan had so over-ruled the world that we went into a kind of fascist techno-darkage for the next 100 years.

I always wondered why StarFleet would risk going “into the past” to gain knowledge of Earth History, as in “Return to Tomorrow.”

499. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

Am I even allowed to respond here?

500. boborci - August 20, 2014

496. ha!

on a more serious note, I considered telling the story, to conform with reality, that K ruled the earth secretly in the 90’s, and history did not record this fact until it was discovered in our future. I would’ve been called a “conspiracy theorist.”

501. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

501. boborci – August 20, 2014

on a more serious note, I considered telling the story, to conform with reality, that K ruled the earth secretly in the 90′s, and history did not record this fact until it was discovered in our future. I would’ve been called a “conspiracy theorist.

If history didn’t record Khan’s rule of the Earth in the 1990s, then how was it “discovered” in the future?

And how would it be that the ruler of one quarter of the Earth’s population kept his global activities a “secret?”

502. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

499. boborci – August 20, 2014

Sounds like a good TV show.

And you are right. You would have been. And if you continue explaining, you will be.

503. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

498. TrekMadeMeWonder – August 20, 2014

Cygnus-X1 Perhaps there is a gap in StarFleet’s knowledge of the Earth’s relative recent history. Perhaps Khan had so over-ruled the world that we went into a kind of fascist techno-darkage for the next 100 years.

OK, but even if that were the case, it wouldn’t change the events of the past: Khan was still frozen aboard the Botany Bay in 1996, well before the Alt Universe split off from the Prime Universe. The issue you’re raising is entirely separate from the issue of Khan being unaffected by the differing events of the Alt Universe.

504. boborci - August 20, 2014

500. Cygnus

Thats why I didnt do it. I would’ve been called more of a conspiracy theorist than I have already been called.

but to answer your question more directly,here is the headline:

Historyisclassified. Wenever know what really happened until years later. As an example, the files detailing what was known about the JFK assassination are not scheduled to be declassified for years!

You can’t honestly believe that the nightly news means a god damned thing!

505. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@499. boborci

“that K ruled the earth secretly in the 90′s, and history did not record this fact ”

Sounds like a “New World Order” conspiracy theory!

506. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

496. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

I wasn’t “hounding” anyone.

I was analyzing the movie with other people because I find that an enjoyable, informative and educational pastime.

If you don’t like film ana|ysis, then don’t ana|yze films. But, I don’t see how trying to incite a political argument between friendly people is a more noble pursuit in your view.

507. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

496. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

I wasn’t “hounding” anyone.

I was ana|yzing the movie with other people because I find that an enjoyable, informative and educational pastime.

If you don’t like film ana|ysis, then don’t ana|yze films. But, I don’t see how trying to incite a political argument between friendly people is a more noble pursuit in your view.

508. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

Not a theory.

509. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@ 506. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

“Not a theory.”

Don’t know if you’re addressing my comment, but if you are, do you mean that the New World Order is real ?

510. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

505. boborci – August 20, 2014

500. Cygnus Thats why I didnt do it. I would’ve been called more of a conspiracy theorist than I have already been called.

If I’m understanding you, your idea was that Khan’s rule of 1/4 of the Earth’s population would have been kept classified and the classified files only made public in the distant future.

Personally, I don’t have any problems with conspiracy theory as a premise for a movie. But that particular premise seems too far-fetched. Keeping files pertaining to a relatively small, covert government agency classified is different from keeping secret the activities of someone so well known and infamous that he ruled 1/4 of the Earth.

511. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 20, 2014

Same explaination, Cygnus-X1.

The records were just wrong after so much time in the hands of Khan and his forces in the two-thousands.

Starfleet did go into the past to gain knowledge of what actually went on before the Khan event.

Still sounds like good Trek fodder.

But what it does not cover is a good explaination for the lack of a true indian actor in the role of Khan’s. What? Is it so hard to sell tickets in India that they could not get one good Indian actor to make the movie more complete?

I certainly would not have had any trouble accepting a true indian actor in the Khan role, and in fact, I longed to see it. And I understand the explaination, but it is still a sore point for the production and character.

512. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

505. Cygnus-X1 – August 20, 2014

Oh I can do that too. BEHOLD!!!:

I wasn’t “inciting a political argument” between people.

I was ana|yzing the seeming paradox of persons with opposite politics that would otherwise put them at odds here acting in agreement, because I find that an enjoyable, informative and educational pastime.

If you don’t like paradox ana|ysis, then don’t ana|yze paradoxes.

513. Mike Barnett - August 20, 2014

503. boborci –
You can’t honestly believe that the nightly news means a god damned thing!

That became more obvious to me as I grew older….and wiser!

514. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

*Didn’t mean for that last paragraph to be in italics.

515. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

507. Ahmed – August 20, 2014

Absolutely. Specifically, it is an oligarchical goal that many of the policies we have had for a long time were enacted to achieve.

516. boborci - August 20, 2014

508. love that you are bitching about something I didn’t do, while providing real world evidence (JFK file) that history is classified.

517. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

514. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

Oh I can do that too. BEHOLD!!!:

I wasn’t “inciting a political argument” between people.

The difference is that you are talking ad hominem about people here, whereas I was discussing a movie with people here. I haven’t even been discussing politics in this thread, so your comment isn’t even relevant in that respect. Anyway, this is boring.

518. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 20, 2014

Now there is something to protest about – > JFK file. ; |

519. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

515. Cygnus-X1 – August 20, 2014

Ad homi- *yawn*

“Boring.” Exactly what reading your repetitive complaints is like for some of us, completely unbeknownst to you, apparently. Like an annoying hum that won’t end. At least STiD is over in two hours.

520. Tuzer - August 20, 2014

I would like to see “The Romulan Wars”.
The mythical battle between UFP and the RSE.

521. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

514. boborci – August 20, 2014

BTW, I regard the JFK “conspiracy theory” as being in a class apart from all of the others. There’s just too much eyewitness, first-hand information indicating a conspiracy that it seems almost willfully ignorant to dismiss it on the basis of it being just another “conspiracy theory.”

522. Jonboc - August 20, 2014

#504. ““that K ruled the earth secretly in the 90′s, and history did not record this fact ”

Sounds like a “New World Order” conspiracy theory!

Not really, just a device to serve the story they wanted to tell. Works for me.

Bob, one thing that I was curious about, if you’re still around…was the end fight, where Spock beat down Khan with that piece of machinery, an intentional parallel to Kirk beating Khan in Space Seed (using that mysteriously dense plastic lol)? I don’t know if the similarity was by design, but I dug it! When Spock rang Khan’s bell with that, I was like, YES! That’s some Jim Kirk-fu right there!

523. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

521. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

There’s a simple, easy solution for what ails you:

Don’t read my comments.

524. Mike Barnett - August 20, 2014

515. Cygnus-X1

So let me get this straight. You are brushing off the conversation with @boborci because it’s too boring? What the heck is the matter with you?

525. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@dmduncan & Cygnus-X1,

Come on guys, we are talking about a movie, not the ultimate fate of the universe! There is no need to turn it into personal attacks, chill out.

526. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@521. Mike Barnett

“So let me get this straight. You are brushing off the conversation with @boborci because it’s too boring? What the heck is the matter with you?”

Cygnus-X1 was talking to dmduncan, not Bob.

527. boborci - August 20, 2014

519. Will get blamed for parallel, but that was the intention:)

528. boborci - August 20, 2014

518

Awesome! we agree!

Weird thing, ain’t it?

529. Mike Barnett - August 20, 2014

523. Ahmed

My bad. Sorry Cygnus-X1.

530. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@boborci

Perhaps you should produce/write a movie about JFK assassination, given your passion for that subject.

531. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

520. Cygnus-X1 – August 20, 2014

521. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

There’s a simple, easy solution for what ails you:

Don’t read my comments.

***

Your posts are often so very long. Though I can spare myself the trouble of reading them, who is going to give me the time back that I waste getting past those massive icebergs?

532. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

525. boborci – August 20, 2014

Awesome! we agree! Weird thing, ain’t it?

We probably agree on quite a bit that’s not related to film ana|ysis.

533. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

532. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

Your posts are often so very long. Though I can spare myself the trouble of reading them, who is going to give me the time back that I waste getting past those massive icebergs?

You live in a liberal State, right? There’s probably a social program to compensate you. ;-)

534. dmduncan - August 20, 2014

522. Ahmed – August 20, 2014

Oh Ahmed, you are no fun.

535. Cygnus-X1 - August 20, 2014

531. Ahmed – August 20, 2014

@boborci Perhaps you should produce/write a movie about JFK assassination, given your passion for that subject.

That’s a good idea, if you mean a documentary.

Speaking of which, I should point that I watched JFK: Evidence of Revision at Bob’s suggestion here years ago and it’s pretty amazing. I mean, I’d like to see it culled down to the basic ideas and each one of them responded to factually in the form of rebuttal, as the amount of information in that series is so massive. But, if even 10% of it is accurate, the implications are mind-blowing.

536. Ahmed - August 20, 2014

@ 531. dmduncan – August 20, 2014

“Oh Ahmed, you are no fun.”

lol, sorry :)

@532. Cygnus-X1

“That’s a good idea, if you mean a documentary.”

No, I meant a feature film similar to “The Day of the Jackal” that address some of the unanswered questions.

537. Harry Ballz - August 20, 2014

Make a feature film to answer questions pertaining to the JFK assassination?

Why not a time travel sci-fi thriller where the audience gets to see why there was nobody found behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll right after the shooting. There WAS somebody there, but they had disappeared by the time the crowd ran up the knoll to see.

538. Son of Jello - August 20, 2014

503. boborci – August 20, 2014

If you are interested this should help you put the conspiracy behind you. It was all a terrible accident http://watch32.com/movies-online/jfk-the-smoking-gun-5629
This was aired in 2013 :). His death was an ACCIDENT.

539. Keachick (Rose) - August 21, 2014

Cygnus – “He pointlessly attacks Star Fleet HQ, thereby harming his chances of getting what he wants most—his 72 frozen buddies.”

Bloody hell – go watch the film and pay attention. Khan attacks SFHQ because he believes that Marcus has already killed his 72 frozen buddies, which is what Marcus threatened to do if Khan did not play ball.

Note the number of people who were actually killed – 42 at Section 31 in London and between probably 20-30 people at SFHQ. He attacked small SF areas – not areas where he knew there could have been hundreds of people. It was payback.

Later, he went apeshit/lost it when he got his hands on the Vengeance, he beamed the 72 torpedoes from the Enterprise to the big ship, then the torpedoes detonated. The Vengeance sensors might have picked up if the freezer-folks were in the torpedoes or not, but the normal Enterprise sensors could not. Khan started firing on the Enterprise immediately but when the torpedoes detonated, he may not have realized that his crew was not in the torpedoes anymore, hence his anguished scream. It was then that he set the navigation to target SFHQ since the ship was going down anyway.

Why am I having to tell people what actually happened in the film all the time?

540. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2014

Honestly…….STID works as a movie. It’s not convoluted, nor is it “dumbed down”.

On the other hand, some of the comments blasting the movie could be considered “dumbed down” judging by the fact that numerous posters either haven’t been paying attention to the movie, or that they just can’t help laying on the hate simply because they didn’t get the movie they wanted.

I honestly can’t read posts by Cygnus anymore simply because it’s one long diatribe after another. Same old complaints rehashed over and over.

541. Keachick (Rose) - August 21, 2014

#528 – “Though I can spare myself the trouble of reading them, who is going to give me the time back that I waste getting past those massive icebergs?”

Well, I guess it is better than being on the Titanic…

542. boborci - August 21, 2014

son of Jello

aware of this theory. read jFK and the Unspeakabke and get back to me on putting it behind u:)

543. TUP - August 21, 2014

Boborci – perhaps a better term would be “preachy” as opposed to preaching. But dont try to get cute. if you want to reply to criticism reply to it. Dont be critical of the framing of a statement that you are surely smart enough to understand the point of.

Personally I dont think the story was well written enough to be overly preachy but the message was clearly one about US foreign policy and how the terrorisits arent that bad – they do bad things because our government made them do it. it was bad for Khan to orchestrate the London attack but hey, he had a good reason because he was sad about what our big bad government did to his people.

Thats a clear message in the film. Just not a very good one. Khan was absolutely the last character that should have been used in that way. It wasn’t Khan.

As someone else pointed out, this Khan was the same Khan from the Prime universe, having been ‘frozen’ prior to the timeline split. The argument will be that the influence on Khan since being awoken by Marcus changed him into the character we saw in STID. Hogwash. If you want to go down that road, use a different character. Personally, I was on board for using Khan. I was even willing to give BC a chance since he’s a great actor though he looks nothing like the character he was portraying (which was important in the casting of Kirk and Spock). But the character of Khan was written so poorly, there was no redeeming it.

The film lacked focus. I find it great that Bob interacts with fans on here and I dont expect him to respond to all the criticism but I find it a bit odd that he seems to discount the criticism. Does he really think STID was a great film even after reading some pretty insightful criticism of it?

544. TUP - August 21, 2014

Regarding “Lazy Viewer”. Im the one Bob referred to as a Lazy Viewer. I will tell you this right now, that summed up Bob pretty quickly. Defensive and not very insightful. He painted a lot of people with the same brush. ‘oh you didnt like or appreciate my movie? Then its your fault for not getting it’.

Bob, you guys wrote a convoluted mess of a film. Details of which have been spelled out here many times by many people. I guess we’re all lazy? I guess when we spend out money many times over on all things Trek, we’re lazy? Maybe the fans should stop being that lazy then if we just dont “get” Bob’s version of Star Trek.

When I first called STID lazy writing it wasnt because I needed everything explained to me. It was because they missed multiple opportunities to make the film better. Orci and his partners seem very good at turning in simple movies that appeal to the masses and will never get any consideration for the quality of the content. I think that’s lazy. If it’s not lazy then it means these writers have basically capped out their abilities as writers.

Bob – it IS possible to write a big action-packed blow em up movie with quality story telling. Give it a shot.

545. I am not Herbert - August 21, 2014

JFK (and Marilyn) were killed by the (secret) gov’t (CIA/Bush/Illuminati/Nazis) because they were going to tell us the truth (about Galactics, etc…)

546. TUP - August 21, 2014

491. boborci – August 20, 2014
479

this aint “Space Seed.” It’s a different universe.

***PLEASE tell me you know your own time split happened WAY after Khan was frozen. I mean really…

I asked this before and its rolling around in my brain again. What research did you, Bob, do to prepare for Trek 09 and STID? Did you fully immerse yourself in Star Trek by watching all of TOS and the TOS movies? Clearly someone watched the end of WoK but your Khan was so completely unlike the Khan we knew in Space Seed that I cant imagine you guys watched it.

The excuse that he’s been influenced by different forces since he was “unfrozen” by Marcus is weak. It might have merit to a degree but that in lies the problem. You guys want to say “canon doesnt matter anymore” everytime a fan complains that you’ve strayed too far from the source material and yet you want to be patted on the back everytime you invoke canon. If you want it both ways, fine but with a character like Khan, it needs to have some familiarity.

In my theatres when watching STID, the Khan reveal was met the first time (more rapid fans) by laughter and some scoffing. The second time, by silence. Was that what you were going for?

547. Curious Cadet - August 21, 2014

@540. TUP,
You’d be surprised at how validating a full bank account can be with respect to one’s work.

548. TUP - August 21, 2014

Cygnus – I actually find Bob’s idea about Khan secretly ruling parts of Earth intriguing and the idea that it would be known at the highest levels but classified until later is also very interesting with a basis in reality. Im not sure that works in a film because of the time it might take to explain it fully. As a TV show, it sounds like a great premise.

As far as world leaders go, Khan was pretty young at the time he was expelled from Earth. An idea that he was a behind the scenes puppet master for some time before taking control himself is plausible. So at the time (the 90s) he may not have seemed like a Hitler-level commander but as the truth came out in bits, the reality might have been revealed. I like that.

On the other hand, I have no problem with retconning Khan to being a world leader prior to WWIII rather than the 90’s. if I recall Space Seed correctly, Spock said records were fragmented. Khan wasnt recognized by anyone, even the ships historian. If they unfroze Hitler, I’d suspect he’d be recognized. Thats a big clue.

Regardless, the classic character of Khan was done a terrible dis-service by STID. I suspect that that was less Orci’s influence which might partially be why he’s the only writer from STID remaining for the third film.

549. I am not Herbert - August 21, 2014

…just saw ASM2: it sucks =(

Thanks boborci, for making Peter/S-M into a mook-ish Witwicky… ;-(

even the Stan Lee cameo sucked! LOL! …and Gwen Stacy is smart?!? LOL!

now I hate nu-spider-man as much as nu-trek… =(

550. TUP - August 21, 2014

@544 Absolutely. lol But at this level of writing you’d hope the writers are more introspective and self-aware.

Anytime I have ever written anything, the feedback I get is generally in line with what I already thought. So when someone criticises me, I usually agree with their points. And the things people like, I also usually agree.

I’d love to know more details of the writing process on these films and see the notes that went back and forth from all parties involved. Because they seemed to miss some obvious spots for improvement. Im sure some of them were cosidered (making the Kelvin the Enterprise) and dismissed for what they considered valid reasons. But Id love to know.

Bob – get a detailed “Making of” book published. Ill buy it right now.

On the subject of the redone WoK scene done beat for beat, I actually liked it. I will say on repeated viewings, it *does* lose something and I see why people didnt like it. It had be on the edge of my seat, almost like reliving a past memory the first time I saw it. I cant criticise it. I also liked the Khan scream by Spock and felt the editing of that line into the music of the next scene was actually perfect, though some people in my theatre did laugh.

What I did find wrong about it was who died. Should have been Pike, not Kirk. Would actually have been more emotional. I didnt get the emotional pull between Spock & Kirk. I just dont think there was enough between the two by this point in the movie and it actually relied on our knowledge of the pair’s future to be moved by it. It also meant immediately undoing it. I *did* love the Spock/Khan chase scene (except the goofy super human jumps and stuff). I thought it was rip-roaring and intense. A lot of foot chase scenes are guys sort of running whereas this was them running at full intense speed. Very well done.

Had it been Pike, it would have been more emotional in a few ways. For the long time fans, it would immediately trigger in us that feeling of ‘uh oh, here’s where he sacrifices himself’. In The Menagerie, we never saw how Pike was hurt, only told of it but the results were so horrific that had it been Pike in the reactor room, I think it wuld have invoked some very uncomfortable emotional responses. And for fans and new viewers, the fact Pike was the best character in the two films and the most likeable, it would have been more sad. No one believed Kirk was dead. They would have believed Pike could die.

And rather than have the lame magic blood that fixes Kirk good as new, it would have allowed for the saving of a very damaged Pike. So you get an ending of the film with both sadness and dispair and hope and anticipation. Whereas Pike is laying in a hospital bed, crippled and disfigured, he’s alive. But the question to us and maybe to Kirk is, ‘was it worth it’. It allows for a real commentary on sacrifice required for leadership. Imagine Kirk/disfigured Pike scene. With Kirk in his dress uniform on his way to the speeach shown at the end. The contrast in the two. Maybe you even get a POV shot of the speech as Pike’s empty, slightly sad eyes look out from his hospital room…maybe he even “beeps” as we transition to the end credits.

Maybe that doesnt leave the audience cheering for the 5 year mission but it does invoke far more emotion, makes the audience think and shows real consequences for the actions of the characters.

551. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 21, 2014

546. I am not Herbert

I tried to warn you guys about ASM2.

Let’s all hope that his Trek is a singular vision from Bob Orci, then we will surely know weather to praise or dismiss his production.

Anyhow, Perhaps you will like this cut of ASM2 better. IT IS BETTER!

The Amazing Picker-Man 2″

http://www.pitcleanup.com/

Remember! Don’t Litter!

552. Ahmed - August 21, 2014

@ 551. TrekMadeMeWonder – August 21, 2014

“I tried to warn you guys about ASM2.”

Well, the fact it got 53% score on rottentomatoes & that it is the lowest grossing Spider-Man domestically is a telling.

553. TUP - August 21, 2014

Who wrote ASM2?

554. Ahmed - August 21, 2014

@ 553. TUP – August 21, 2014

“Who wrote ASM2?”

Take a guess ?

A relentless action movie with a hero destined for greatness. One of the villains- there are too many villains in ASM 2- is seeking revenge & looking for the magic blood!

555. Keachick (Rose) - August 21, 2014

#543 – “Personally I dont think the story was well written enough to be overly preachy but the message was clearly one about US foreign policy and how the terrorisits arent that bad – they do bad things because our government made them do it. it was bad for Khan to orchestrate the London attack but hey, he had a good reason because he was sad about what our big bad government did to his people.”

The message is only about US foreign policy if you are actually know or are interested in what the US is doing of late, otherwise it is a film dealing with themes that have made up much of human history – unfortunately. People have always done bad things because (they claim) that others did bad things to them first. It is that cycle of vengeance operating – part of samsara.

However, if we are going to look at this story as an allegory to US foreign policy since 9/11, how has the US’s (in particular) been much different from Khan’s? Al Queda (or Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, as we were first told) was responsible for destroying New York’s Twin Towers and attacking the Pentagon… so the response is to bomb Iraq back to the stone age…then, ooops…Iraq was not responsible for the terrorist attacks in the USA, as many were telling the US Government at the time, but would they listen? No. No apologies given. Now Iraq is in political, social and economic chaos, where fundamentalist Islamist factions fight for supreme rule and people who don’t want to be part of any faction are screwed.

Since 9/11 the US has “cried me a river” to the world, but people from this same country can’t abide the notion that a Khan (upon believing that he has lost his entire crew/family) might actually shed a genuine tear because of what he has been put through, seems to speak volumes to me, and it ain’t nice.

This is what I am getting from this discussion, particularly from posts like the one quoted above.

And that’s apart from all the nitpicking and continual use of phrases like “lazy writing” and so it goes on…:(

556. Ahmed - August 21, 2014

@555. Keachick (Rose)

“However, if we are going to look at this story as an allegory to US foreign policy since 9/11, how has the US’s (in particular) been much different from Khan’s? Al Queda (or Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, as we were first told) was responsible for destroying New York’s Twin Towers and attacking the Pentagon… so the response is to bomb Iraq back to the stone age…”

In the early hours after the attack, the media & DC were pointing fingers at various groups from p Al-Qaeda to Iraq & Iran. Once it was clear that Al-Qaeda was the one behind the attacks, everyone was focused on Afghanistan, not Iraq.

The Neocons in the Bush administration then start planning their war on Iraq on the pretext of removing WMDs from the hands of Hussein.

Get a copy of Bob Woodward books on the Iraq war ‘Plan of Attack’ and ‘State of Denial: Bush at War, Part III’ for more background on the events leading to the war.

557. TUP - August 21, 2014

Keachick I almost dont know where to begin with your post.

Just because some people dont see the theme in STID that it’s about US Foreign Polocy doesnt make it any less true. It just means it went over their heads. And while they might enjoy STID on the surface for its action, that shouldnt excuse the lack of quality deep storytelling.

By the way, you’re also very wrong about 9/11. Off the top of my head (Im fairly sure I dont need to go look any of this up), the US did not claim or tell the American’s that Hussein was responsible for the attacks “first”, as you stated.

It was always Bin Laden. And he was being hidden in Afghanistan. The Americans gave the Taliban an ultimatum to give up Bin laden or be deposed. They chose not to comply and were deposed.

The US occupation of Iraq is far more complicated. The first Gulf War, when George HW Bush was President, never actually ended. Iraq agreed to a cease fire and had a long list of conditions to comply with which he routinely broke. There is no doubt that the W admin wanted to go in and take out Hussein. And they looked for connections with Bin laden. But the pretense for invasion was not 9/11, it was mainly that Iraq might have WMD’s and supported terrorism. Both of those things are true by the way. Most people seem to think of WMD’s as nukes. But Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds. Chemical Weaponry are WMD’s. So he did have them. He just didnt have others or more.

The secondary pretense for war was less talked about (and in my opinion Bush’s key mistake). Saddam repeatedly violated the cease fire terms and multiple UN resolutions. He thumbed his nose at the UN. Technically speaking, that should have triggered the end of the cease fire. The US got side tracked over thw WMD’s because they knew it would be easier to sell that to the American people and they trusted their flawed intelligence. They should have focused on the cease fire and the UN resolulutions. At the time, the UN was totally cowed and inaffective. Good thing I wasnt President because I would have withdrawn from the UN.

The US *was* justified in creating a coalition to take out Saddam. They just focused on the wrong reasons (but lets not forget that Saddam claimed to have WMD’s – if I tell you every day that I hope you die and then I start saying I have a stockpile of weapons at my home that I will use on you if you make me angry, do you think the cops will storm my house or wait until I demonstrate use of those weapons?). They also didnt have a reasonable exit strategy.

But educating you isnt my job.

As for Khan, I dont really have an opinion of whether he would cry for his people or not. I tend to think he would. He was VERY emotional, though moreso to the anger, rage, violence, bitterness range but in Space Seed he was certainly shown to be loving and romantic. I can buy he would cry. But you cant just look at one scene in a bottle. Khan was so poorly written (as was the entire film) that that scene came across as a desperate effort to get the viewer to feel sorry for Khan. It didnt feel organic at all. Kirk confronts the vile killer and he…weeps. Come on.

It was right out of “How to get a cheap emotional response from your audience” 101.

558. Keachick (Rose) - August 21, 2014

STID’s Khan was not that much different from the original Khan seen in Space Seed and TWOK. Cumberbatch Khan also came off as well educated, charming (less so than in Space Seed), well spoken, manipulative, confident of his superiority (mental and physical) to others and a bit of a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” as seen at the end of film, where once he got the upper hand showed just how ruthless he could be.

This (Cumberbatch) Khan could be as benign a dictator as the Montalban Khan was reported as being. He would take genuine care of those under his rule, so long as they did not cross him. Then you would see a very different side of this person emerge…:( (Ask nuKirk re the vicious kicking he received).

559. Keachick (Rose) - August 21, 2014

TUP – No, the allegory did not go over my head. I just chose to look at this movie as being set in a time that is not our own and see the dynamics operating as being those that have been in operation over most of human history – ie A did this bad thing; No, B did it first so we did it back; No, we did not, says A; Yes, you did and look what you’ve done now, says B; and it goes…on and on. All the while, both are likely doing things to undermine the other side and the real loss ends up being the destruction of truth and common sense.

Why do you keep shoving your own emotional response, or lack of response, on others, especially the writers, as to what was shown in the movie? Obviously the film makers did not get that “cheap emotional response” from you, nor from others either it seems. Oh dear…there’s another fail right there on the writers’ part…sigh…:(

I guess it is possible for someone like Khan to fake tears, but it served him no purpose because neither Kirk or Spock saw his tears as he hid that side of himself from them.

Why might that be? Let me venture a theory – because “big boys don’t cry” could be one. Khan did not want to appear weak (tears translate to weakness for many) in front of his captors, but still needed to tell his side of the story. Khan weeps because, finally, someone is prepared to listen to him and what has mostly been expressed before by him as angry vengeful violence, is allowed to be poured out in the form of tears (hidden from Kirk and Spock’s view).

No, the movie did not say that we should be nice to terrorists or whatever. Kirk was very clear and adamant in his resolve about bringing this terrorist Khan to justice. Kirk reiterated this to Khan before they set off for the Vengeance. Kirk told Khan that he would do everything he could to protect Khan’s crew, because, for one thing, Kirk knew that these frozen people had committed no crime in the here and now, but Khan had. The other reason was because he understood that Khan did have a legitimate gripe against Marcus, but that, in no way, nullified what Khan did, some of which Kirk saw with his own eyes.

The movie was actually quite self-explanatory in that respect but nevertheless…gosh, do I need to further dumb it down for you?

560. boborci - August 21, 2014

547

post hoc ergo propter hoc. nonetheless, the reverse is more instructive:)

561. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

@560 boborci “post hoc ergo propter hoc”

Oh yeah?? Well, cum hoc ergo propter hoc! So there!

(I know, another fallacy, but, hey, it sounds good)

562. TUP - August 21, 2014

Kirk had no problem working with Khan. His resolve was not absolute. He turned too quickly.

Khan turned from Kirk and Spock and only showed the audience his tears because that was the intent of the writers, to get an emotional response from us, not from Kirk and Spock.

I can appreciate your perspective and drawing comparions between this Khan and Khan “Prime”. I dont dislike Khan so much as his placement in this story. They changed Khan’s motivations. Yes WoK showed us that he could be blinded by rage and there *is* a comparison to be drawn there in that in WoK he would do anything to avenge the death of his wife and people that he blamed on Kirk and in STID he would do anything to avenge his people on Marcus. I get that.

Firstly the problem is the casting. BC is a great actor. All wrong for Khan.

Secondly, the film was just too convoluted, too bulky. It fell off the rails. There was both too much happening and not enough. Ill say again, Marcus was the most interesting character and he got shafted. Pike got shafted too. That was ill-conceived, the idea to kill him. One might say his death was the engine that propelled the plot and Kirk’s quest for revenge and his need to “learn”, (ie. his arc) but none of the emotion felt real.

STID had the makings of a great film. Im not sure if the writing team just didnt understand Star Trek or the characters or if they were just on autp pilot. I know a lot of people blame Lindelof. I guess we’ll find out on opening night of this next film who was to blame.

If orci delivers an epic worthy of the 50th Anniversary, Ill be the first to come on here and tell him I was wrong about him (but not about STID… ;-) )

563. TrekMadMeWonder - August 21, 2014

I never stop learning new things here. Hell, even old things are new again.

Does anyone even give a click these days?

564. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

TUP, I can see that you have a keen understanding and appreciation for film.

I would very much appreciate your feedback on my screenplay.

If you write me at michaelappleton@outlook.com I will post just a few letters of your email on this thread to see if it is you, and once you confirm that point, I will send you the script.

What do you think?

565. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

@563

Careful, TMMW, someone is likely to tell you to go click yourself!

:>)

566. Keachick (Rose) - August 21, 2014

So Bob Orci and co should have written a different story? – but they didn’t!

STID is the story they told and it is neither particularly convoluted, “bulky” (oh look, there’s another word) or dumbed down. I doubt that any story they told would have satisfied some of you since you are so ready to rewrite so much to suit your own specific interests and desires, as to what should have been, shouldn’t have etc etc. Some of it does not necessarily make any more (or any less) sense than what was actually in the movie, which some of you either miss completely or don’t pay attention to because it does not suit.

“but none of the emotion felt real.” – So you keep saying…

Well, take some advice – GET OVER IT and move on!

567. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 21, 2014

Another good one, Harry! ; )

568. TUP - August 21, 2014

Hahahahaha I love that. “Hey you fans on a trek site? Yeah you. Stop talking about Star Trek here. Get over it. Go away ”

Makes sense.

I actually really liked Trek 09. I’ve loved many trek films
So I don’t where you get the idea or the balls to accuse people of
Never being satisfied. If you loved STID then great! I wanted it to be better. I expected it to better. It was a let down. Pure and simple. And my opinion is at least as valid as yours.

569. dmduncan - August 21, 2014

537. Harry Ballz – August 20, 2014

This weekend I will sit down and read it. During the work week I can’t focus on anything else but the dozen projects I have going at work.

570. dmduncan - August 21, 2014

Khan secretly ruling his portion of the Earth is a good TV premise. The perfect title for such a show was recently taken by a new show that just came out:

Tyrant.

571. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2014

TUP,

Iraq got rid of it’s chemical and biological weapons. Anything left over was too little to actually cause significant harm to any population.

U.S airstrikes took out several chemical weapons factories during the first Gulf War, and the U.N destroyed the remaining stockpiles during the rest of the nineties.

Saddam was bluffing. He was concerned about his arch-enemies in Iran, who actually were (and still are) building nuclear weapons. Iran was his greatest enemy, ahead of the U.S. He was fearing an Iranian-backed overthrow by Shia Muslims in his own country.

Certainly Saddam violated the cease-fire, but, Iraq was also in a deadlock with another of America’s long-time enemies, Iran. Not to mention that al-Queda and the Taliban were the other beneficiaries of the war. The Afghan war was arguably lost once the invasion of Iraq began, and Iran was handed a political and military victory at the expense of Bush’s and later, Obama’s, Iraq blunders without having to fire a single shot.

And yes, Iraq is now fully Obama’s responsibility. No more passing the buck back to Bush. Iraq and Syria burn while Obama is busy goofing off and golfing.

572. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

560. boborci – August 21, 2014

547 post hoc ergo propter hoc. nonetheless, the reverse is more instructive:)

Well, since we’re speaking Greek…

I believe that quid pro quo is what Curious Cadet was implying.

“Something for something,” i.e. story for $money$.

Of course, everyone’s got to make a living. But, it would be nice if the story seemed to have a purpose further beyond mere pecuniary reward.

Plus ultra — Tal vez lo conoces. ;-)

573. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

548. TUP – August 21, 2014

Cygnus – I actually find Bob’s idea about Khan secretly ruling parts of Earth intriguing and the idea that it would be known at the highest levels but classified until later is also very interesting with a basis in reality.

Khan ruled over 1/4 of the Earth’s population—that’s roughly 1.5 billion people in the 1990s. How did THE POWERS THAT BE keep such a basic, general bit of information totally secret from so many people for so long? Osama Bin Laden ruled over far fewer people than that, and look at how many of the common folk know his name.

Are you thinking that Khan was maybe like a shadow ruler who pulled the strings of the titular ruler? This is not the impression that I got from Space Seed nor from the Khan character. The impression that I got was that Khan was an uber-masculine, super charismatic, charming leader of men. A leader out in public, persuading his flock to follow him. Not some secretive puppet-master lurking behind the scenes….

574. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

*didn’t mean for that sentence to be in Italics.

575. Basement Blogger - August 21, 2014

@ 540

“I honestly can’t read posts by Cygnus anymore simply because it’s one long diatribe after another. Same old complaints rehashed over and over.”

Amen. Maybe I shouldn’t agree with you since Cygnus might accuse you and me of being sock pockets. Er… never mind about. Better watch out Dmduncan, you could be on Cygnus’ list.

And before Cygnus can say he apologized, let me point out that he still has doubts that I am not MJ.

Cygnus says , ” IF YOU’RE NOT HIM, then I apologize.” @ 393

Cygnus, there are no “ifs” “ands” or “buts.” I am not MJ. There should be no doubt if you tried to think about it. At time MJ was banned, RDR and I were still posting.

Sincerely,
Bernie Wong from Cincinnati, Ohio.

@ 554

Ahmed says about The Amazing Spider-Man 2,

“A relentless action movie with a hero destined for greatness. ”

Did you fall asleep or go to the bathroom during the Peter Parker-Gwen Stacy scenes? The film was more than just action, it an enthralling romance. Their story was lovely and charming.

But let’s look at the source material, shall we? It’s based on a comic book. There is plenty of action in Spider Man books along with the personal drama. The movie reflected that. But what about the personal drama? Parker can’t commit to Gwen because he’s worried that his crime fighting might bring harm to her. Comics do have a lot of action, maybe it’s too relentless for you. My last comic book was Mass Effect: Invasion. Given the themes in Mass Effect, there was a lot of action inn this book.

Of course, your comment is about making a complaint about STID when it comes to “relentless action.” Let’s look at TOS. I see plenty of action. Phaser fights. Space battles. Kirk without his shirt. A lot of fist fights. And I mean a lot of fist fights. Yep, there are also ideas. Scientific. Philosophical. Metaphor. Hold on. Was there some of that in STID? Why yes. Remember Spock telling Kirk that killing Khan… er Harrrison with a missile without a trial was wrong? The United States killed American citizen al-Awlaki with a drone missile strike.in 2011. And I don’t weep for him but find it disturbing the guy was killed without a trial. See, metaphor. There’s more but I’ve discussed that many times.

And you got it wrong if you think Peter Parker is seeking “greatness” . He is not destined for “greatness. Maybe you fell asleep during the scenes involving the little boy dressed as Spider-Man. Let me go over this with as little plot spoilers as possible. Remember the little boy dressed as Spider-Man facing The Rhino? It’s about everyday people becoming heroes. It’s a theme that goes back to Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man.

The only thing that’s “great” about Peter Paker is his power. And one of the biggest themes in the Spider-Man is ‘WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.” So Spider-Man uses his power to help people. Alexander the Great, Parker isn’t. He’s just your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.

Let me end this post with what Spider-Man creator Stan Lee would say.

“Nuff said.”

576. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2014

Yeah, I didn’t care much for “The Amazing Spider-Man 2″, myself. There just wasn’t anything new. Electro was boring, and Jamie Foxx clearly didn’t have enough to do. The fight scenes looked straight out of a video game. The story seemed to be a mish-mash of plots from the previous films, including the Sam Raimi movies.

I don’t blame Bob for this, as “The Amazing Spider-Man 1″ was underwhelming, as well. I don’t think Marc Webb was the right director, despite his last name.

The Hans Zimmer score was very good, though. Interesting sound.

577. dmduncan - August 21, 2014

How did governments keep the secret?

Easy. By not keeping HIM a secret. The secret is not in his existence, but in the extent of his power. which few believe is as great as it is.

He’s a kind of super boss ruling a super mafia that operates parallel to and in control of visible government. Some people know what he is, some suspect but and can’t prove it, some have tried to prove it and were never heard from again, and to the great majority who are too far removed it is all just hearsay. Farfetched conspiracy talk beyond what they can understand.

For Khan, the use of a “democratically elected” government would be the means of keeping the secret.

People believe what they see. Control the image and you control their beliefs. It’s the trickery of magicians, and it works well. That’s why every four years people rush to vote for politicians that they know are telling them lies, and they vote for them as if this time they are telling the truth.

People are willing participants in their own deception, and that makes them easy marks. People want to believe that they have a choice, a say in their government, and if you provide them with a good enough illusion that they have it, they are happy, and not only do they not question it — they attack those who do.

Very clever trick.

578. dmduncan - August 21, 2014

BB is not MJ.

579. dmduncan - August 21, 2014

Hey, I LIKED ASM2. Even though I argued that Gwen Stacy should not die and should replace MJ as Spidey’s love interest (Bob, thanks for not listening — AGAIN!), the way she died was poignant. That was a beautiful (and therefore powerful) scene, and it paid off so well because of the time they took to develop the relationship between Peter and Gwen throughout the movie.

That was, for me, the best scene out of ALL the Spiderman movies.

580. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

Basement Blogger is Bernie Wong. He’s a good guy. I’ve known him for years.

581. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

@569 dmduncan

Thanks, I look forward to your valuable feedback.

582. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2014

Basement Blogger lives in Cleveland, Ohio. He has his own blog.

583. dmduncan - August 21, 2014

Basement Blogger (Bernie Wong) is a Chinese American guy who spends most of his time smoking weed, and wackin’ off in the basement of his mom’s house to headshots of Holly Hunter.

I mean, come on, man. Holly Hunter.

584. Curious Cadet - August 21, 2014

@550. TUP,
“What I did find wrong about it was who died. Should have been Pike, not Kirk.”

I think we’ve all said this at various times, but brilliant summation. I don’t agree with you on all points, but this one you nailed.

——————
“As for Khan,”

I think what people keep forgetting is that Orci retconed and painted Khan as a genocidal mass murderer whose main goal is cleansing the galaxy of inferior species. That includes all of humanity. But this is NOT Khan’s goal from Space Seed. Never was. He was a leader and a ruler, and the genetic inferiority was not an issue for him before Orci started writing the character. Otherwise it’s hard to imagine Kirk, Bones and Scotty would ever admire him.

But again, you nailed it on the crocodile tears shed for his captor’s benefit. Would Khan ever open up like this to total strangers in Space Seed and show that level of vulnerability? Doubtful. Alone with McGivers, sure. Kirk and Spock, no. He needed to win them over — he needed to win US over; blatantly obvious. Did he mean them? Possibly, but as you say … there’s nothing organic about them. Boo Hoo. I’d love to know where the direction to cry first originated … the script, the director, or the actor.

585. Ahmed - August 21, 2014

@575. Basement Blogger

I didn’t care for the movie, the pacing was terrible & the plot is so messy with so many villains crammed in the movie to the point that it felt like a 2 hours trailer to the Sinister Six movie.

“Did you fall asleep or go to the bathroom during the Peter Parker-Gwen Stacy scenes? ”

You’ve got a lovely attitude, you know that? I’m beginning to understand why Cygnus-X1 might think that you are one of MJ’s aliases.

586. Ahmed - August 21, 2014

@ 576. Red Dead Ryan – August 21, 2014

“Yeah, I didn’t care much for “The Amazing Spider-Man 2″, myself. There just wasn’t anything new. Electro was boring, and Jamie Foxx clearly didn’t have enough to do. The fight scenes looked straight out of a video game. The story seemed to be a mish-mash of plots from the previous films, including the Sam Raimi movies.”

Right on.

“I don’t blame Bob for this”

You are aware that he co-wrote the movie, right ?

587. boborci - August 21, 2014

573. Dont get me started on Bin Laden!

Let’s just say that our world views accept different realities. As I said before, the details of what our government knew about JFK’s murder won’t be declassified for years, That is a fact. which part of that fact don’t you understand? which part of: “the most powerful man of the most powerful country was killed on the street in broad daylight, and we can’t know the details until 2025,” dont u get as empirical evidence of massive historical secrecy? are you getting enough oxygen? are u awake? do you actually give a shit about anything that matters? Wake up!

588. boborci - August 21, 2014

573. and meanwhile, as I said before, this has nothing to do with STID! we didnt pursue that idea. Yiu are now bitching about an idea that wasnt realized? are u okay? Im worried about u.

589. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

Bob, I don’t get it….you seem to feel that the JFK assassination is of extreme importance, and yet you don’t have any interest in doing a film about the assassination.

May I ask why?

590. Marja - August 21, 2014

This whole thing of “Khan was the same Khan” doesn’t make sense.

There were two universes: the TOS [Prime] universe and the AltVerse. Each was going along, existing, until Nero’s Narada penetrated the AltVerse after the use of RedMatter in the Prime Universe.

Right?

So how would the Khans of each universe be the same? The Spocks are not the same.

591. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

587. boborci – August 21, 2014

Chill !

Remember, I support your suspicions with regard to the JFK assassination.

But, as I said previously, you’re comparing some very specific details that might plausibly have been kept secret by a small group of elected officials within a national government to something that would be a very basic fact of life and general walking-around knowledge to anyone with eyes and ears. Keeping details relating to JFK’s murder secret is a far cry from keeping the fact that JFK was President secret.

Now, if what you have in mind—and I don’t know because you haven’t been specific—is that Khan might’ve been something akin to one of the Iranian mullahs who are the real power-brokers in that nation whose president is merely a titular figurehead, then that’s a bit different. But, the fact that I know about these Iranian mullahs just from reading the news goes to my point: It’s obviously not a secret.

My best guess as to how you might get Khan to be totally in the shadows with that much power and influence would be to have him be sort of a leader of one of these super-duper global “secret societies,” like the Trilateral Commission or the Illuminati or the Masons. But again, the fact that I know all about the paranoia relating to David Rockefeller, the Rothschilds, and so forth goes to my point.

More importantly, however, is that I just don’t see the character, Khan, as he was portrayed in Space Seed (and in TWOK) as being this sort of shadow ruler. I don’t see Khan as, for example, the conspiracy theorists imagine David Rockefeller to be. David Rockefeller is someone whose personality seems more consistent with being the man behind the curtain. He comes from what was once the wealthiest family in the world, which everyone knows, and he’s always shunned the spotlight. He doesn’t want attention. He’s a banker, not a rock star.

Khan, on the other hand, has an ego that is too big to be kept in the shadows. He wants the world to know his name how powerful he is. He wants the women of the world to know how powerful (and handsome) he is. Khan is the prototypical alpha male. He’s not staying in the back room while someone else gets all of the glory that should be his.

“…You gotta get the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, you get the woman.”

592. boborci - August 21, 2014

589. U cant top Oliver Stone’s “JFK.”

also, a weird theory I have read, but that i have to evaluate seriously, is that, when something is put in a film, it becomes dismissible precisely because it was in a a “hollywood” movie. Google the psychology of psy-ops for more info. tricky.

also, do you remember how much Stone was attacked? Even before JFK came out, Risky business. You saw how much shit I got for STiD. and it isn’t really detailing anything other than accepted history.

593. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

588. boborci – August 21, 2014

573. and meanwhile, as I said before, this has nothing to do with STID! we didnt pursue that idea. Yiu are now bitching about an idea that wasnt realized? are u okay? Im worried about u.

I’m not bitching about it!

I was merely asking my friend TUP what he had in mind because I was curious.

594. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

Marja, the Spock of the new universe is different because he was influenced by the events after Nero’s arrival.

Khan was frozen long before Nero came along, so he should be EXACTLY how we remember him.

595. boborci - August 21, 2014

591. I guess I would argue that if u know somebody’s name, they are not in charge. Japanese style;)

596. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

@592 boborci

Yes, but sometimes a film can cover a historical event without diminishing it.

“Titanic” comes to mind.

Hmmm, telling a fictional story with a true historical event as the backdrop.

Sounds both compelling AND commercially viable to me.

597. boborci - August 21, 2014

591. as,clearly, JFK, was not in charge. He was killed by those who were, right? what are their names?

598. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

590. Marja – August 21, 2014

There were two universes: the TOS [Prime] universe and the AltVerse. Each was going along, existing, until Nero’s Narada penetrated the AltVerse after the use of RedMatter in the Prime Universe.

Right?

Nope.

The Alt Timeline/Universe in which the BR movies are set did not exist until the incursion of Nero. The Many Worlds Interpretation is that universes are constantly splitting off from each other at every quantum event (or set of events). Think of it like cells multiplying, but trillions upon trillions of them splitting off from their antecedents every second.

When the black hole appeared in ST09, the presumption is that it did not appear in the Prime Universe/Timeline. A universe split off from that Prime Timeline in which the black hole appeared (the black hole being a set of quantum events). Actually myriad universes would have split off at that time, each of them with a version of the black hole, but the BR movies are set in one of universes and the subsequent series of universes which were borne from it—the set of universes which is now referred to as the “Alternate Timeline”

599. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

@597

Lyndon Baines Johnson and a host of allies.

Oh, was I supposed to wait until the other guy answered? My bad.

600. boborci - August 21, 2014

596.

hear you onTitanic, but Titanic doesn’t call into question the publics basic assumptions about reality:)

I like you script!

601. boborci - August 21, 2014

599.

ha!

602. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

@600 boborci “I like you script”

Thank you, Bob. That is both generous and gracious of you to say that.

Much appreciated.

603. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

Bob, I like it when you come here late at night.

I know it’s only 11:20 PM in California, but I find, around this time, you let your hair down a bit……nice to see.

604. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

597. boborci – August 21, 2014

591. as,clearly, JFK, was not in charge. He was killed by those who were, right? what are their names?

Larry, Curly and Moe?

There’s no just ONE GUY “in charge” of the US and certainly not the world. There are competing interests and competing interest groups all vying for power. In the case of JFK, the pro-Viet Nam interventionists—the 1950s/60s analogue of the ideologues known today as NeoCons—were one such interest group, and the CIA was sympathetic to them. The CIA at that time obviously had enormous power. And, yes, we do know the name of the CIA Director at the time: John A. McCone.

That was the guy “in charge” of the CIA, but not of the entire US government. As it happens, in the war of competing interests, in November 1963, the CIA won that engagement. But the fact that support for the VietNam War dramatically dwindled over the course of the ensuing decade, eventually leading to the withdrawal of the US from it, suggests that perhaps the CIA did not win “the war” of which the JFK assassination was merely one engagement or battle.

605. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

P.S.

I don’t mean just the CIA, but the coalition of groups whose interests clashed with the policies of the Kennedy Administration. Perhaps LBJ was part of it. There are quite a few first-hand witnesses who say that he had directly knowledge and/or a direct role. The Mafia, the CIA, LBJ, the Southern Segregationists—all of these groups had serious conflict with Jack Kennedy.

606. Harry Ballz - August 21, 2014

Cygnus-X1

I have spent 20,000 hours over the last 40 years studying every aspect of the JFK assassination.

Trust me, LBJ killed Kennedy. There were others involved, but he was the driving force behind it.

607. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2014

Khan was the same in both timelines up until the points in time when the Botany Bay was discovered. Khan became vengeful in the nutimeline decades earlier due to him being used as a pawn by Admiral Marcus and his fellow supermen being placed in torpedoes to be fired onto the Klingon homeworld to not only start a war with the Klingons, but to also (very conveniently) rid himself of a “problem”.

Khan in the prime timeline became a madman decades only after Ceti Alpha V became nearly inhospitable along with Kirk not checking up on him and his followers, with the resulting death of McGivers, his wife. Khan snapped at that point.

“Space Seed” featured a more level-headed and rational Khan, who Kirk could negotiate with, albeit after an after an attempted takeover of the Enterprise.

In STID, Khan was out for revenge from the start.

Both versions of the character were similar, but obviously nuKhan was altered (physically, and phychologically) by Marcus moreso than that of Khan by Kirk in the old timeline (at least during “Space Seed”). KirkPrime unintentionally turned Khan into a madman due mostly by not checking up on him. Marcus, on the other hand, intentionally altered Khan to the point where Kirk could not negotiate a peace with him.

608. Cygnus-X1 - August 21, 2014

606. Harry Ballz – August 21, 2014

That is what his mistress has said in public.

And that is pretty compelling evidence. There’s every reason in the world to keep that sort of information to yourself, especially if you believe that forces within the US govt have conspired to perpetrate a coup d’état. I’m sure there’s a rebuttal to her story, but I haven’t heard it.

609. PaulB - August 22, 2014

The more Bob Orci writes in this forum, the less I want to watch any movie by him. I’m sure I’m the only one here reacting that way, but oh well.

It doesn’t bode well for Trek that its current caretaker enjoys sneering at and insulting fans in such childish ways.

I guessing staying off social media is one more good idea that escaped boborci…to the detriment of Star Trek.

610. PaulB - August 22, 2014

-609 That should be “I guess staying…” (Just trying to avoid sneers about my typo.)

611. Captain Slow - August 22, 2014

Harry, I don’t know if you’re familiar with a podcast called Scriptnotes. It’s done by two professional writers and on some of their episodes they have what they call a three-page challenge where you submit the first three pages of your script and they will critique them and suggest any improvements. You should consider submitting your script there. You might get some useful advice and maybe someone influential will find out about it.

If you’re interested, go here:

http://johnaugust.com/threepage

612. star trackie - August 22, 2014

609 “The more Bob Orci writes in this forum, the less I want to watch any movie by him. I’m sure I’m the only one here reacting that way..”

Yeah, pretty much. lol

613. Curious Cadet - August 22, 2014

@493. boborci,
“we know therewas no K in the90′s. reality caught up with Canon.”

Perhaps not in this universe.

I can’t believe this statement came from the QM MWI theorist of Star Trek and creator of Fringe.

Riddle me this … When Captain Kirk goes to bed at night, does he watch his fictional exploits as played by William Shatner in a 1960s TV series on ‘Netflix’ to entertain himself as he drifts off to sleep?

Maybe that was his real motivation to join Starfleet, as he had the exact same name as the fictional James T. Kirk, and seeing the Enterprise being built in that corn field — the same ship he knew from his favorite TV show as a child — was when he knew Starfleet was his destiny, and he was born to command the Enterprise. Too bad he didn’t remember watching Space Seed.

614. Captain Slow - August 22, 2014

Something that I think should have been done in STID was state that Khan and the Eugenics wars all happened in the 21st century. This would have cleared up a whole lot of issues.

For instance, in both Space seed and TWOK everyone says that Khan was from 200 years in the past. But the 23rd century – 200 years = the 21st century, not the ’90s. Plus Spock’s statement that the Eugenics wars was the last of Earth’s world wars, which First Contact put at around 2050 means that it make things far more consistent.

615. TUP - August 22, 2014

Cygnus – notwithstanding Bob’s weird attack on you for asking ME a question, I think my opinion on how to handle Khan is hard to explain. I might get roasted for this, but there are aspects to canon that is okay to alter. But its a dangerous process, a slippery slope to go down.

Khan’s backstory was pretty well established in Space Seed. But the good thing about Space Seed is that it left open the possibility that not everything was accurate.

I guess when I first learned Khan was going to be in STID, despite the film makers lying to their paying fans, I was excited about the prospect of a modern bring-to-life of Ricardo Montalbhan’s character. Not a complete reimagination. Would Chiwetel Ejiofor make a great Pike? Im sure he would. Would that be great casting? Probably not. For obvious reasons. Khan in STID was in trouble from the moment they cast BC. Only BC’s talent sort of saved it from a performance perspective, but he couldnt make the script better, the dialogue better, the directing better, the story better or make himself look and sound and feel like Ricardo’s Khan.

One could arfue that STID’s Khan was in-line with what we later found out about him in WoK, that he could be brutal and violent and filled with rage and thirst for revenge. One could argue that those that wanted the more romanticised Khan from Space Seed were wrong because this Khan was influenced by his time with Marcus to, in effect, speed up his devleopment into the Khan from WoK but with the younger mentality, a more tactical mind-set. Those are good points. But thats not the Khan we wanted to see. Thats a different character.

I think the writers got too excited about “new twists on old favourites”. I dont think they fully appreciated the iconic nature of the universe they were being entrusted with. It shows. Not just in the way Khan was written, but in smaller scenes and characters too, Sarek being one of them (and they missed a great opportunity to serve Canon and create a wonderful “reunion” scene between Spock and Sarek in Trek09).

getting way off point here. If done carefully and with the eye towards fleshing out and making things better and more sensical, canon can be changed…or exanded upon. There is nothing to say that the “1990’s” as Khan’s timeline wasnt wrong. It makes sense that it was wrong, that the “records were fragmented” meant the details were wrong or perhaps even maliciously so. Moving the Eugenics war to the mid 2000’s makes more sense now and actually in keeping with First Contact which showed a world that Im not sure was advanced enough to have those sleeper ships (WWIII I know…).

So yes, I *could* imagine an idea where Khan was a back ground player, one of the really upper 1% pulling strings behind the scenes. In todays terms, lets assume that Khan exists now and somehow pulls the strings of the leaders of ISIS…and Iran..and Russia. Etc. In the end, the “controlling 1/4 of the population” rings true. It *might* explain why they were sent off world in a sleeper ship and not killed. Being given the opportunity to escape by fellow shadow government types who are not so much allies but like-minded to an extent they “defeat” Khan but banish him rather than kill him. If that makes sense.

Records and details would no doubt be classified until some indeterminate time in the future, but WWIII destroys databases and hard drives, leading to the fragmentation of the more rare and classified records. Perhaps the super soldiers and the Eugenics war, the importance of such were backburnered behind the more “public” WWIII, which might explain why Khan was clearly not in the history books (no one recognized him).

Thats off the top of my head, but it’s an intriguing idea.

616. TUP - August 22, 2014

@Captain Slow – we are of the same mind. If a quality writer with care comes along, he can retcon some of Trek history to make a bit more sense. Eugenics war and WWIII were either the same thing or one led to the other or were different wars happening at the same time. Either way, it makes sense to morph them into the same event.

617. TUP - August 22, 2014

Hmmm a couple of my posts seem to have disappeared.

618. Curious Cadet - August 22, 2014

@616 TUP,

Here’s how Khan came to overt power as described in Space Seed during the 1990s, while not happening in our recorded history.

From a strictly chronological interpretation of Star Trek canon, the pivotal moment occurs at the beginning of Tomorrow Is Yesterday, which precedes Space Seed. This may be the only episode of TOS which notably, and with profound implications, begins on another set of characters other than The Enterprise crew. In fact, if you tuned in late the evening this episode aired, you might think you were on the wrong channel, or Trek had been preempted during the first few minutes, as this episode begins on Earth in the 1960s, featuring Capt. John Christopher.

To the extent Star Trek was ever our ‘literal’ future, that lasted for the first 21 episodes only. With Tomorrow is Yesterday, the episode begins in our past, but the twist is that the Enterprise and crew that appears from the future is from a parallel universe which had a very different past, just like Prime Spock and Nero in ST09. When that Enterprise returns to their own time, they also return to their alternate reality and we the viewers follow them for the rest of the series. And it is their past in which Khan came to overt power as described in Space Seed, not ours. Knowing what we do about QM MWI, Trek NEVER returns to our reality again. This explains virtually every inconsistency with our actual history and Trek’s.

Problem solved, so let’s all please stop debating how Khan’s fictional past conflicts with our factual past, much less use that as an excuse to justify taking sweeping liberties with the character.

619. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 22, 2014

618. Curious Cadet

Brilliant idea! Especially when I mentioned it 1st above @ 498. BWHAAA!!!

I think its great that the old writers always seemed to throw in a few lines that makes me wonder for minutes about what they were thinking.

Kinda’ like in the Miri episode, when the Enterprise arrives at a planet with the exact proportions of Earth. Then they just move on from there and never address it again.

Bonk! Bonk! Those damn, dirty, Grups!

620. Captain Slow - August 22, 2014

@ 616 TUP

Thank you. But respectfully, we’re not really of the same mind. I am a big fan of both JJverse movies and am really looking forward to the next one.

621. Ahmed - August 22, 2014

@boborci,

How come you never wrote an episode for The X Files ?

Reading your comments here, you sounds like the perfect guy to write about mysterious government conspiracies!

“also, do you remember how much Stone was attacked? Even before JFK came out, Risky business. You saw how much shit I got for STiD.”

Well, it didn’t hurt your career at all. In fact, you’re the new master of Star Trek after all the “shit” that you got.

So have no fear, go ahead and make a movie about JFK. An indie movie where you will have more freedom to say what you want about this subject.

622. TUP - August 22, 2014

@620 Captain Slow – well we are of the same mind about retconning Khan. Retkhaning?

I also enjoyed both modern Trek films. Just felt they missed too many opportunities to make them better. I was very intrigued and impressed with their concept to use Spock Prime as a plot device. But Im not even sure the writers understand why they did that anymore. The change to the established Trek time travel rules really messes with a lot of Trek history.

623. TUP - August 22, 2014

@ Curious Cadet The problem with that idea, that every thing that happens changes into a new alternate universe is it sort of breaks down the importance of the characters. Its why the MWI theory in 09 rubbed me the wrong way since these arent OUR heroes. We dont need to care about them. Nothing that happens matters. If Kirk died and stayed dead it doesnt matter because OUR Kirk still lived.

Its a great cover for canon violations but I think most fans prefer to think of the characters as being the same characters in the same universe, OUR universe. We can all get past the inconsistancies that come with a TV and film property that lasts 50 years. Its the careless or uneccesary canon violations that irk some of us.

Using the writer’s own assertion that the Trek universe in the new films was the same as the “Prime” universe until Nero arrived, it means Khan in STID is the exact same Khan from Space Seed. And then we have problems. Many of them.

624. TUP - August 22, 2014

For a successful Hollywood writer, Bob sure whines a lot. Haven’t writers learned from a very young age that criticism and “taking shit” comes with the territory. I would say, if you dont want to take shit, write a better film. If the films you write are the best you can muster, well, then I guess we should direct our complains to Paramount.

Im most curious to see how the third film looks and feels compared to the first two. With orci’s influence over the third film, we shall see if some of the concerns of the first two, especially STID, were, as some people seem to think, more the responsibility of Lindelof.

625. Cygnus-X1 - August 22, 2014

615. TUP – August 22, 2014

One could argue that those that wanted the more romanticised Khan from Space Seed were wrong because this Khan was influenced by his time with Marcus to, in effect, speed up his devleopment into the Khan from WoK but with the younger mentality, a more tactical mind-set.

OK, but he still shouldn’t be a crybaby.

Tactically speaking, attacking Star Fleet HQ was a dumb move if Khan’s most important goal, that he would do “anything” for, was to get his 72 buddies back. He doesn’t even try to sus out whether his buddies are still alive? He just assumes that Marcus has killed them and proceeds to ruin a good opportunity, by appealing to the fair-mindedness of Star Fleet, to not only get his buddies back, but also to get Marcus locked up?

This behavior by Khan is either dumb or indicative of his valuing revenge above all else, including his “family.” But, then, if his family is secondary to his revenge lust, then why all of the crying and whining about them? Was that for Kirk’s benefit? Space Seed Khan wouldn’t cry like that. He’d use his charm and charisma to manipulate Kirk, not a pity play. Even if he had been under Marcus’s thumb for a year or however long it was supposed to have been.

There’s too much crying in these BR movies. They’ve got the logical Vulcan character crying… whaaa! My mommy died and now I am easily upset! …the prototypical alpha male character crying… whaaa! I irrationally jumped to the conclusion that Marcus had killed my friends and now just the thought of them all being dead, even though I know they’re all alive and in the next room, makes me upset! whaaa! I mean, come on! There’s no crying in Star Trek…

There’s no crying in Star Trek!

626. Ahmed - August 22, 2014

@625. Cygnus-X1

“There’s too much crying in these BR movies.”

LOL

http://carrinth.deviantart.com/art/Star-Trek-Into-Darkness-Everyone-Cries-373710341

627. Cygnus-X1 - August 22, 2014

P.S. That list bit was more a parody than a serious statement of values: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ZMO8jhbwg

628. Cygnus-X1 - August 22, 2014

626. Ahmed – August 22, 2014

Right!

629. TUP - August 22, 2014

@ Cygnus Great points once again.

Spock’s emotional issues are another example of the writers missing their mark with a character. Im sure Spock is fun to write because he’s such a deep complicated character. The every day human things we do become special when Spock does them. The problem is, the writers didnt fight off the urge to get “special” with Spock. Spock being sad, mad, romantic, whatever is interesting only in contrast to his “unemotional”, cold, stoic, professional personality. When he’s being Spock 99% of the time, that 1% of the time when he is more human becomes special. It makes examining the human condition through Spock so interesting and effective. Its why most Trek includes a non-human character that doesnt fully understand humans so that they can be used as the tool to examine ourselves.

Spock in these films isnt special because he’s ALWAYS emotional.

I also agree that Khan’s actions were in keeping with his characterization as a master military strategist. That was part of the weakness of the plot. You can almost imagine the writers getting notes that say “why would he do this, that doesnt make sense, that would never happen” and the writers saying “ah come on, the answer is ‘just because'”. But I think Khan was shoehorned into the film.

Someone explain why Marcus needed Khan in the first place. And how did he know about Khan? I havent seen STID in awhile, what was the official explanation, that because of Nero they do more long range scanning and just came across the BB? And Marcus, head of Starfleet, head of the most advanced military in the galaxy thinks to himself “Perfect! A man from the 20th century! Who has ZERO knowledge of modern warfare or even knowledge of advancements over the past 200 years. He’s exactly what I need to develop the most advanced and sophisticated weaponry every seen”. What? That doesnt make any sense. None at all.

630. I am not Herbert - August 22, 2014

…the JFK assassination, properly addressed, will rip the lid off of EVERYTHING… ;-)

the dark cabal will be exposed… the Golden Age can be manifested… =)

we will see the Truth… and we will be invited to join the “Federation”… =)

631. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 22, 2014

629. TUP

You gotta’ admit it, Trekkies. He’s making a lot of sense, here.

That was my primary bitch about the Khan character. A man that much outta time, just would not be the best choice to assist in the design all that great SF tech.

But then again, isn’t that what made Khan so unique? His ability to learn and adapt? Still. It does not seem like the best plot line to be used and still remain so unexplained onscreen.

632. boborci - August 22, 2014

630

Ha! Yes!

633. boborci - August 22, 2014

609. Paul

Genuinely curious about your reaction. What troubles you about my mixing it up with fellow fans. I would think it would be welcome. Maybe not. Please elaborate, if you can!

634. boborci - August 22, 2014

624. Lindelof is a genius. You can see it after merely speaking with him for two seconds, If I have ever said anything that seems to blame him for anything, I apologize. He is amazing. Lost was not an accident.

635. TUP - August 22, 2014

@631 Thank you. Ofcourse I meant to write that Khan’s actions were *not* in keeping with his characterization. Forgot a word there…lol

Also, they inject humour artificially. I was aghast when Spock cracked a joke as the Nero was being pulled into the black hole. Worse the joke was about letting Nero and his crew die. Talk about tone deaf.

636. Who cares - August 22, 2014

“There is no crying in Star Trek”

Hmmm, interesting, I guess then that in Balance of Terror I didn’t see a young woman crying about her dead fiance. Or in TNG’s The Child I guess Troi didn’t cry when Ian left. I guess I also did not see Sisko screaming and crying as he was dragged away from his wife’s body. There are more but I think I have made my point. People who make comments like that just make them selves look like they never actually watched the franchise.

637. Harry Ballz - August 22, 2014

I think Cygnus X-1 was riffing off the Tom Hanks character in A League Of Their Own, when he berates one of the woman baseball players who is crying when he barks, “You’re crying??!! There’s no crying in baseball!!”

638. I am not Herbert - August 22, 2014

who’s in charge? who controls the money… the Federal Reserve.

Who are the Federal Reserve? International bankers. BIG MONEY.

OIL Money (Bush/LBJ) Weapons Money (Military/Industrial Complex)

MONEY that is used to program and CONTROL the populace…

…as economic SLAVES =(

MONEY that will do anything to retain it’s secret grip over terrestrial humanity… who has all the money? who do they serve? hmmmm….

639. Harry Ballz - August 22, 2014

@638

How about The Black Pope? Does everyone answer to him?

640. Who cares - August 22, 2014

@Harry. Tom Hanks is a shitty actor and I never watch anything he is in, last Hanks movie I forced myself to sit through was Big. I will admit that I watched Bosom Buddies when I was a kid, but that was my parents’ choice of show not mine.

Madonna’s (ex?) husband Guy Ritchie may be pretty good Director but she is not an actor at all.

641. Ahmed - August 22, 2014

Speaking of Tom Hanks, who should guest star in the next movie ?

I would love to see any of these actors & actress in ST 13:

Michael Fassbender, Lennie James, Jodie Foster, Ralph Fiennes, James Badge Dale, Don Cheadle, Christoph Waltz, Sean Bean, Keri Russell or Jake Gyllenhaal.

642. TUP - August 22, 2014

Ton Hanks is shitty? Hmmm. If the last movie of his you watched was Big, you’re doing yourself a dis-service. Watch Philadelphia. Watch Cast Away. He’s a good actor.

I used to hate Denzel but his movies are always good and he’s always good in them. I’d like to see him as an Admiral or Captain in a Trek movie.

For the kiddies, I like Zac Effron.

Id like to see a strong female role that isnt just T&A or there solelty to emote like Uhura. Jodie Foster would be good. There are many really. Would have loved to see more of Winona Ryder…

643. Mike Barnett - August 22, 2014

642. TUP

Any fan of Star Trek has to like Hanks in Apollo 13.

644. Ahmed - August 22, 2014

@ 643. Mike Barnett – August 22, 2014

Apollo 13 is a good movie, almost as good as Philip Kaufman’s ‘The Right Stuff’.

645. TUP - August 22, 2014

Ofcourse! How could I forget Apollo 13 where the suspense was off the charts even though we all knew how it ended. Maybe Ron Howard would direct Star Trek.

646. Mike Barnett - August 22, 2014

I miss those days in the 60’s and early 70’s when men set course for the Moon. Driving the moon-cars was the greatest thing ever. I wish Nixon would have picked Mars as the next big thing. Instead he picked the space shuttle. While the shuttle was way-cool and ditto for the ISS, we’d have a colony on Mars by now – using interplanetary spacecraft. With our troubled world, it sure would be a nice distraction to fully fund a Mars mission right now. Have the Chinese, Russians, Europe & USA go on a joint mission. When they land on Mars, they can play Rock, Scissors, Paper, Spock to see which one of them will be the first to step on the surface of Mars. ;-)

647. Keachick (Rose) - August 22, 2014

I don’t see Bob Orci sneering at posters here, but the same can’t be said for some posters. It is a wonder he comes here at all, because the same people keep piling on their own confused muck onto him over and over.

I think Bob Orci was pointing out what I have also been saying with regards to what was told in STID – the reality of what can be hidden in plain sight. Only within the last few years has the public got access to the various political/military goings on and research that occurred in Britain during WW2. People at the time knew that there was a lot that was being kept secret, “classified”, ie hidden in plain sight.

Today there are massive buildings the size of football fields (Hollywood has a few), where access to the buildings, or parts of, is off limits to anyone who does not have a special pass, keycode whatever and they are bound by confidentiality agreements which forbid them from speaking/writing about whatever takes place in those buildings. A huge building that is incapable of being hidden from anyone (remind anyone of the huge installation near Jupiter in STID), yet very few of us have much of a clue as to what really happens in one of these places. Hollywood studios maintain strict security and access and they are just making movies and television series (most of them fictional); pharmaceutical companies do the same etc etc and then there are buildings that do weapons research and manufacture – all HIDDEN in plain sight!

People know that *stuff* goes on in those buildings and some of it will feel suspicious but they don’t know for sure and nor can they know. They also know that once politicians get elected to high office, there is every chance there will be compromises made in the region of stated policy that got this person elected in the first place and that ethical/moral considerations will, in all probability, suffer. It is simply a matter of degree as to how much and we all (or, at least, I do) vote with our fingers crossed.

There is just so much that is hidden in plain sight that we no longer even *see* it or *know* it and/or feel powerless to do much or even know where to start…

648. TUP - August 22, 2014

So…. if someone doesnt “get” STID its because the true meaning and depth was purposely hidden. lol Okay.

I think there is a very different standard of behaviour between fans and the actual film makers. If someone tells Bob to go F himself, I’ll pay him on the back for replying in kind. But if I recall, Bob told a fan to F off awhile back, unprovoked. He’s a bit defensive. I can appreciate the love he has for his work and I think its super cool that he interacts with fans here. I just find that the things he chooses to respond to are either “light” (understandable) or defensive. Im sure he doesnt have the time to spend engaging in lengthy and mature discussions with intelligent and insightful posters (like Cygnus and others) but I’d love to read it.

@ Mike Barnett – No kidding eh? Obama gutted the space program. I was pretty excited when Bush challenged NASA to get to Mars. Its a real shame we arent focused on that anymore. Some of the general public dont see the benefit. They see it as a waste of money. But man, if they would open their minds to it, and NASA rallied support, we’d be on Mars in no time.

It will happen eventually but maybe it will take a Chinese flag on the moon to change public perception.

Then again, we never went to the moon did we? Or is it we have secret bases there and routinely go to Mars today?

649. I am not Herbert - August 22, 2014

…”we” DO have a base on Mars.

but only the secret gov’t knows of it / uses it… ;-)

google: solar warden ;-)

650. Harry Ballz - August 22, 2014

Q: When the staff are off duty at this base on Mars, where do they let off steam?

A: Why, at a MARS BAR, of course.

(runs and hides)

651. Mike Barnett - August 22, 2014

649. I am not Herbert – August 22, 2014

I wouldn’t be surprised if there is such a thing as Solar Warden. We saw a silent wing shaped object the size of an airplane go over our heads in 1991. We were star gazing with a telescope and saw this thing blocking the stars as it went over our heads. We would not have noticed it if we were just casually looking up at the sky. Was it E.T., Secret Warden or a prototype for the B-2 bomber? I worked in aerospace and the shape I saw is nothing close to the B-2 or anything else in the industry.

652. Sam - August 22, 2014

No more delays or you will loose a lifelong fan!!!!!!!

653. I am not Herbert - August 22, 2014

Mike Barnett: thanks for relating that… =)

my guess: one of “our” secret craft, or the greys (who have a pact w/ the cabal)

yeah, advanced propulsion has no need to look similar to known aircraft ;-)

(but they do “cloak” themselves sometimes, to look like regular planes)(sound too, but sometimes they forget to turn this on…) ;-)

654. Curious Cadet - August 22, 2014

@634. boborci,
“Lost was not an accident.”

No, it was a train wreck.

655. Mike Barnett - August 22, 2014

654. Curious Cadet – August 22, 2014
“No, it was a train wreck.”

No, it was an airplane wreck ;-)

I happened to enjoy Lost. Our whole family enjoyed it….except maybe the ending.

656. Curious Cadet - August 22, 2014

623. TUP,
“Khan in STID is the exact same Khan from Space Seed”

Yup and that’s true regardless of whether we’re watching the crew of the Enterprise from the first 21 episodes of TOS, or every episode that came after Return to Tomorrow being from a different universe. The one place Khan isn’t the same is in our universe, because he can’t exist. There’s one thing Spock said to Kirk that negates any possibility of Khan existing even if you believe he could have as a shadow government and conformed to everything else said about him in Space Seed — “would you reveal to war weary populations that some 80 Napoleans might still be alive?”. This means that the 1990s population knew of the supermen, and that they were responsible for ‘bombing whole populations out of existence’, and thought them all dead and defeated. It’s fun to speculate how Khan could have existed right under our noses, but let’s be real, it’s a complete stretch — that’s not how he was written, nor what was intended.

The only way to fix this is to retcon the date, or realize that Star Trek takes place in a fictional universe, not our own, and accept that their 1990s were different than our own. It changes nothing. But if we insist Star Trek is our actual future, then we also have to ask why they don’t know about a TV series called “Star Trek” from their past that accurately duplicates their reality in every way.

I’m the first to agree with you that QM MWI sucks from a dramatic point of view, and I suspect so does Orci which is why he seemingly went out of his way to erase any references to it in ST09, and admittedly made the film ambiguous to permit audiences to enjoy it “Back to the Future” style. But Marja is also right, there is no reason why we can’t care for the plight of these characters depicted on screen as much as the originals. We’re all human afterall. And even though we’re intellectually aware there are infinite Kirk’s in infinite universes, a healthy percentage of them dead and dying, we are subjected to this one’s story, and that’s where our attention is focused and our emotions vested. Perhaps if Kirk had died and Spock said, ‘it’s OK, we may have lost Kirk in our universe, but hey, an infinite number of Kirk’s live on in an infinite number of universes, so let’s be happy for them, and the fact we have two of me!’ Perhaps then, we might feel differently. But Orci carefully avoided calling attention to that in the movie. Only when canon is applied does it become a problem. Does anyone care about the Riker in Parallels who blew up trying to prevent Worf from returning his ship to the Borg?

But I’m in total agreement with you about Khan in STID, my point is simply that just because the 90s came and went and there were no eugenics wars does not give anyone permission to change the character from how he was first depicted. “Reality caught up with canon, so Khan’s white and British now”. Right.

657. Curious Cadet - August 22, 2014

@655. Mike Barnett,
“except maybe the ending.”

I don’t know anyone who enjoyed the ending. And that’s generally what I mean. The ending kind of ruined the whole thing for me. If Lindelof is the genius Orci says he is, then perhaps he’s too smart for his own good.

The second season of “Lost” dropped almost half it’s first season audience, including me. Clearly he was not smart enough to figure out how to sustain his show that season. I came back halfway through the third season, and was attracted by the time travel scifi aspects, which drove away many of the original audience who believed they had been duped into watching a different kind of mystery. And then Lost rode a series of peaks and valleys and then crashed and burned beyond recognition in the end. So if that’s what makes a genius, well I know more than I thought. But at least Orci’s admiration for Lindelof explains in part the horrific ending of an otherwise good series — “Alias”.

And then I’ve personally spoken with Lindelof for two seconds. So perhaps I’m just not smart enough to recognize his genius, I’m sure is what Orci would say.

658. Ahmed - August 22, 2014

@ 655. Mike Barnett – August 22, 2014

“No, it was an airplane wreck ;-)”

lol, nice one :)

“I happened to enjoy Lost. Our whole family enjoyed it….except maybe the ending.”

Same here. Not only I watched the series from the beginning to the end, I was discussing the episodes the next day with the other staff in the office, trying to figure out what the heck was happening.

It was an amazing time & I was planning to re-watch the whole series after the finale, then came the ‘End’, it was such a huge letdown. I didn’t bother to re-watching Lost again until last year.

It is still one of my all time favorite series even with that crappy finale.

btw Lindelof is working now on a new HBO show called ‘The Leftovers. This time, he explicitly stated that the big mystery of that show will NEVER be answered!

The show was so boring at the beginning that I was about to remove it from my DVR, but some of the later episodes were interesting enough that I kept it.

659. Curious Cadet - August 22, 2014

@658. Ahmed,
“It is still one of my all time favorite series even with that crappy finale.”

I can’t say that, because it’s not something I can watch and enjoy individual episodes like I can other things. I can watch TOS over and over and over and never get tired of it. The same for MASH. Those are all time greats for me.

What I will say is similar to what you hinted at … For me it is one of my all time favorite TV experiences, even with the ending. And sadly, I think the binge watching phenomenon really do a disservice to a series like LOST. In the case of Lost, the journey was so much more rewarding than the destination. But for those who binge watch LOST, and I have a few friends who missed out on it in real time, they devoured the episodes like licking a Tootsie Pop to get to the alluring center, only what they found wasn’t quite so tasty. So sadly they missed out on the best part … The long slow build up and dissection of the mystery. And then they’re left with a series that relies on that mystery to enjoy it. I will never watch LOST again for that reason. Whereas Breaking Bad I did binge watch, but every episode is compelling and doesn’t simply string me along with the tease of obscure and, what I know know are, pointless clues to entertain me — there’s real substance in every episode which will keep me coming back. Lost is nothing without the mystery. In fact there’s a lot of similarities with STID … A lot of poignant moments that pass for drama, but they’re little staged vignettes that stand alone like the island they take place on, rather than contributing to the overall story. As has been said, anybody will cry watching a new mother lose her husband in a sacrifice to save his family, but such a moment cannot sustain one through an entire movie. It’s a hollow trick, which in the end is all Lost seems to be constructed of.

660. Red Dead Ryan - August 22, 2014

#650.

“Q: When the staff are off duty at this base on Mars, where do they let off steam?

A: Why, at a MARS BAR, of course.”

***Snickers*** Hee hee!

—————————————————-

Also, anyone calling Tom Hanks a sh*tty actor needs to get real. “Philadelphia”, “Saving Private Ryan”, “Catch Me If You Can”, “The Green Mile”, “Apollo 13″, “Captain Phillips”, the “Toy Story” trilogy, “Forrest Gump”, the list goes on. Those movies are regarded as modern classics, with Hanks being outstanding in every one of them.

661. Marja - August 22, 2014

642 TUP I can’t believe you used to hate Denzel

But I am in total agreement … would LOVE to see him as a good guy in the next Trek movie. Maybe he could appear to be bad at first [he plays that very well] and turn out to be good [he plays that very well too]! I really want to see him in a nonviolent good guy role again …

662. Marja - August 22, 2014

639 Harry, Methinks Herbert has been watching too much X-Files. Or perhaps that show was planted to make us think the people who believe what it shows are cray-zeee as bedbugs?

663. Marja - August 22, 2014

Ah, I hadn’t read Bob Orci’s comment up the board thar, but PsyOps are truly amazing. It’d be interesting to see if Chris Carter has connections with ‘em ….

Note, “X-Files” aired on … wait for it … FOX

664. Cmd.Bremmon - August 22, 2014

@481. Keachick (Rose) – August 20, 2014
#479 –” Where, in STID, does it intimate that the girl is dying because genetic modification is not allowed anymore?”
Khan’s blood is not magic (sigh, at least I hope it wasn’t supposed to be) but a result of him being a product of earlier genetic engineering technology. The Federation no longer allows this technology to be used because genetic engineering is bad. Ironically this is one of the few world isn’t black/white but shades of grey STID allows making it one of the more interesting parts of the movie. These are topics that spark controversy, thinking, debate; some TOS sci-fi action vs TNG soap opera. Can you see for instance how the concept of a Prime Directive where the Federation allows bad things to happen to Primitive societies that they learn form mistakes, etc and officers cheat to get around and the Prime Directive that isn’t necessarily even enforced regardless of the politics of our time sets up more exciting stories?

“Khan in Space Seed was not marooned by a military tribunal.”
(The senior staff are in dress uniform again.)
UHURA: Record tapes engaged and ready, Captain.
KIRK: This hearing is now in session. Under the authority vested in me by Starfleet Command, I declare all charges and specifications in this matter have been dropped.
MCCOY: Jim. Agreed you have the authority

“STID’s Harrison/Khan did not have worthwhile motives at all for having Section 31 blown up or firing on SFHQ. Khan thought that Marcus had killed his crew, so Khan exacted revenge on Starfleet installations. Curiously, they were small, as in 42 killed in London and probably about 20-30 people dying in SFHQ, making a total of 72! The “eye for an eye” concept?”
Sigh… Khan thought that Marcus had killed his crew, so Khan exacted revenge on Starfleet installations as you say so yourself, the head of Star Fleet Command was instigating genocide supported by Section 31 and the fleet to the point they build a ship twice as large as the Federation flagship at the time; if we were talking Robert April instead of Khan he’d have been the hero of the movie in shutting down Marcus. EXCEPTION – the end of the movie where Khan who has killed Marcus suddenly decides that he hates the building of SFHQ that he is going to take out San Francisco too instead of taking the Vengeance, repairing it, getting his people back, etc. Khan turns into a bad guy but I think more because someone wanted to show SFX of a starship hitting a city than any grand Khan vs. Enterprise crew conflict.

“Yes, the BR writers could have gone this route, that route, the route over there, the route over here, but that is all moot.”
I just don’t get how the guy who brought back Hawaii Five – O and Star Trek 2009 didn’t make it so on STID. We could have ended up with a TOS movie to add to the library that would be re-watchable and entertaining to the max, maybe setting up a trilogy to rival the Genesis Saga. After the spectacular set up that was Star Trek 2009 I continue to feel STID was a missed opportunity that threatens to put the franchise back to a post-Voyager state (i.e. hiatus).
Please let the next movie be a fun, thought provoking, out side the box, action packed, fun, epic Star Trek TOS movie.

665. Marja - August 23, 2014

The most compelling TV I’ve seen recently is “The Killing.” Yes, I binge-watched the whole thing and am starting over. It’s like a really great Scandinavian series of mysteries set in Seattle.

I love how the human impact of a murder on families, street kids, a military academy is shown, all the human reactions, sorrows, deceptions, self-deceptions, and the slow, methodical investigations the detectives do, while dealing with professional and personal problems, particularly Mireille Enos’s Sara Linden trying to be a mother to her son. The young detective, Holder, is played by the incredible Joel Kinnaman. I was amazed to learn he is Swedish! In the program characters are always calling him “Slim Shady” and so on b/c he’s a white guy speaking “hip-hop/street” lingo.

666. French Trekker - August 23, 2014

Star Trek 2016 must not be only an original story and a good film.

It is the occasion to celebrate a wonderful 60 years voyage, to the eyes of the world. And sadly the last occasion to say goodbye to Shatner and Nimoy together.

It should, no it MUST feature those both glorious actors.
As 2 people wrote here, X-Men and Star Wars, 2 franchises “younger” than Star Trek, did make return their glorious actors.

Why the hell Star Trek could not ?

@boborci : I can just hope that you had all this in mind and planned to feature Shatner and Nimoy in your first film. So please… make it so…
Otherwise, even if the story is good, I fear you’d be remembered as the guy who wasted the last occasion to honor Star Trek properly.

667. French Trekker - August 23, 2014

Ho my … my message was number 666 and I beg for Shatner/Nimoy return.

Diabolic demand ?

668. Cmd.Bremmon - August 23, 2014

Thinking about the response regarding not realizing that the girl is dying because Starfleet has banned genetic engineering; it suddenly occurs to me that the writers don’t realize that their plot holes, their rush to make Marcus the bad guy makes the movies real message that the government cannot be trusted, even one as noble as the United Federation of Planets. 20 years from now when no one gets that the torpedoes=drones and no one gets that the movie expects the military to arrest people in foreign lands even when they fight back all that is left is a message of the US Tea Party that government goes out of control; granted this is consistent with TOS where in basically every Starfleet bureaucrat is pretty much nuts.
Starfleet cannot enforce it’s Prime Directive and plays fast and loose with the law. Starfleet Command ends up being run by a crazy lunatic that ends up using Khan. Khan saves a girl where the Federation can and/or does not. Khan (a bad guy?) is the only element that stops the crazy Federation. When Khan himself goes off the deep end, the Federation cannot save San Francisco. At the end of the movie it is better to head out where no one has gone before with no government then to stick around and deal with the crazies.
There is no socialist utopia there.

669. Tom - August 23, 2014

666 French Trekker

Would love to see it happen. Just don’t think the movie will “feature” them. That implies a larger role that I am not sure would be in the cards but we’ll see.

670. Curious Cadet - August 23, 2014

@668. Cmd.Bremmon,
“Thinking about the response regarding not realizing that the girl is dying because Starfleet has banned genetic engineering; it suddenly occurs to me that the writers don’t realize that their plot holes”

I’m always amazed by those who post in these forums who are quick to call others ‘dumb’, and lambast others for not understanding the film, when they themselves don’t understand entire aspects of franchise canon, and often misunderstand, misquote, and misremember what’s on screen, asserting their opinion as fact. Then lash out with hurtful insults, while crying foul when others reply in kind.

But your analysis is spot on. My feeling about STID has always been that Orci had a story about 9/11 he wanted to tell, and decided to use Star Trek, even though it wasn’t the most appropriate vehicle for it. Star Trek had plenty of cautionary tales such as this, but the best of them put the Enterprise on the outside of it, stumbling into a civil war of another civilization, playing mediator, or helping expose internal corruption and conspiracies of other worlds. But Starfleet was always above the fray, and could err on the side of moral superiority, if not bureaucratic predictability. I get that Orci wanted us to see the problem was within us, which is probably why the entire cast was white. But, people tend not to care for having a finger pointed directly at them, especially in their entertainment, and in doing so decimates the utopian future Roddenberry wanted to show with the Federation — the potential of the human race working together in peace and harmony now, by learning the lessons through other less developed worlds via Star Trek. But Orci tells us, forget all that peace and harmony stuff — instead the more things change the more they stay the same. Might as well stop trying. What’s the point if everything’s going to be the same 300 years from now, but with smarter iPhones?

671. Harry Ballz - August 23, 2014

@666-7 French Trekker

French Trekker, from Montreal perhaps? We know it’s you, Shatner! Nice try!

672. Disinvited - August 23, 2014

#670. Harry Ballz – August 23, 2014

Oh come on now Harry. William Shatner might be many things, but he is NOT a French Canadian Catholic.

673. Disinvited - August 23, 2014

#628. Cygnus-X1 – August 22, 2014

No? Then maybe the kind that can that result from too much laughter? Like when I stumbled across this writing credit for 2009’s STAR TREK: THE IMAX EXPERIENCE

https://www.google.com/search?q=TREK+“IMAX+EXPERIENCE“+JENDRESON

http://www.movietickets.com/movie/mid/70380/n/Star-Trek-The-IMAX-Experience

674. Disinvited - August 23, 2014

#628. Cygnus-X1 – August 22, 2014

To see the writers’ credits at movietickets.com click on:

Read Full Production Details

675. Harry Ballz - August 23, 2014

@672 Disinvited “Shatner….is NOT a French Canadian Catholic”

No, Disinvited, he is a French Canadian Jew.

CLOSE ENOUGH!

:>)

676. Curious Cadet - August 23, 2014

@665. Marja,
“The most compelling TV I’ve seen recently is “The Killing.” Yes, I binge-watched the whole thing and am starting over.”

I loved the Killing. I binge watched it as well, but haven’t started season 3 yet. And I agree I could easily watch it again, and again. The only problem with the Killing that I had was it is so slow paced and gloomy that I tended to fall asleep because I made the mistake of watching it after dinner and before I went to bed on a school night. Not because it wasn’t compelling, but because it has a natural lulling effect, the music especially is quite static and probably contributed more than anything else. That and lying on my couch in the dark!

677. Disinvited - August 23, 2014

# 675. Harry Ballz – August 23, 2014

” No, Disinvited, he is a French Canadian Jew.

CLOSE ENOUGH!” — Harry Ballz

Not when it comes to having irrational superstitions about the number 666.

;-)

678. Keachick (Rose) - August 23, 2014

#648 TUP – “So…. if someone doesnt “get” STID its because the true meaning and depth was purposely hidden. lol Okay.”

Are you referring to the contents of my post above, #647? If it is, try stop being a moron just once, if you would be such a good chap?

“Im sure he [Bob Orci] doesnt have the time to spend engaging in lengthy and mature discussions with intelligent and insightful posters (like Cygnus and others) but I’d love to read it.”

No, Bob Orci appears to not have time to reply in any great detail to anyone’s posts, whether they be intelligent, insightful or otherwise. I would have thought that, after all this time, that would have been obvious to such “intelligent” , “insightful” posters such as yourselves. Hey, I guess not…
Like, as Kirk said of Spock once that he had been on *LDS and “It’s his way…”…:)

Perhaps Bob may be “doing some LDS” with his two young LDS co-writers…Oh my…:)

Gosh, I have only just come online after nearly 24 hours being elsewhere, and look what I walk into…oh dear…I know I can be so patronizing…what to do, but honestly, really?

679. Keachick (Rose) - August 23, 2014

#657 – “So perhaps I’m just not smart enough to recognize his genius, I’m sure is what Orci would say.”

Actually most people are not smart enough to recognize genius, not until some time later, if at all. I am not saying that Lindelof is necessarily a genius nor am I saying that, in fact, he may not be, ie a genius…

Too cryptic for some here? Oh well…Here I go again…what to do?

Gotta go!

680. Ahmed - August 23, 2014

@678. Keachick (Rose)

Do you ever read your comments before hitting ‘Say it’ button?

You never fail to come off as a rude, angry & obnoxious person in most of your comments. It is like you’re actually enjoying insulting people all the time.

681. Curious Cadet - August 23, 2014

@680 Ahmed,

Maybe that’s why Chris Pine thinks people who post on the Internet are wasting their time creating a caustic environment in which to spew their nonsense and bull$#*!

682. Ahmed - August 23, 2014

@681. Curious Cadet

In a way, he is correct. I used to respond angrily to comments made by MJ & his “friends” last year & in the process I was rude. Nowadays I try to ignore these types of comments or be sarcastic in my comments.

But I don’t understand people who are ALWAYS angry & rude no matter what the subject is. I see that a lot on Politico, Facebook, Reddit & other forums & social networks.

683. Keachick (Rose) - August 23, 2014

#680 and #682 – I guess you do not like my opinions because they call out the sloppy reasoning of those whose posts you do agree with and this is why you exaggerate about how I am always being a rude, angry and obnoxious person. You may ignore some comments, but you still manage to be as rude and provocative yourself, just like you were with Bob Orci.

Another like TUP accuses me of saying to fans who constantly go on about how bad STID was, despite getting what happened in the movie wrong (oh, but that is of course the writers’ fault because the film was so convoluted, so TUP and co. say, when it suits them) to “go away”.

Actually what I wrote was “move on” and these words are not necessarily synonymous. “Go away” usually has one specific meaning, as in physically go away, leave, do not remain; whereas the words “move on” can have a literal and figurative meaning. This is why I wrote “move on”, not “go away”.

For that reason, among others, is why I wish he could stop playing the moron…oops bad girl, so rude, never mind that his response to my comments are not intelligent or particularly polite either.

#681 – “Maybe that’s why Chris Pine thinks people who post on the Internet are wasting their time creating a caustic environment in which to spew their nonsense and bull$#*!”

This is the very REASON why I called Chris Pine out on what he said – it is so generalized and is in itself what constitutes a continuing “caustic environment”, as you put it, Curious Cadet.

Well, clearly it seems obvious to me that Chris Pine must have been referring to you and Ahmed as being one of those people. Why wouldn’t he, given that he has given no explanation as to which people, what people?

I mean you are the ones constantly going on about how awful STID is, how the writing was so bad, so lazy, how it should have been this or that, but wasn’t, because of the hacks in charge of making these films, who don’t get it and are all about making loads of dosh at the expense of creativity and following GR’s vision in order to make “real Star Trek”. Those who don’t agree with many of your assessments are ignored or are browbeaten with longwinded repetitive posts about how so little of the movie made sense etc, repeating themselves and others. Often they would harp on about irrelevancies that had little, if anything, to do with the actual story and theme(s).

What’s there to be particularly *nice* about?

684. Ahmed - August 23, 2014

@683. Keachick (Rose)

“Well, clearly it seems obvious to me that Chris Pine must have been referring to you and Ahmed as being one of those people. Why wouldn’t he, given that he has given no explanation as to which people, what people?”

I think we should call for an independent public inquiry to look into Chris Pine comment & to find out the people he was referring to!

@Curious Cadet, please join us in this fight for the truth.

We all deserve to know the WHOLE TRUTH!

685. Cygnus-X1 - August 23, 2014

673. Disinvited – August 23, 2014

Ha! It’s on the Village Voice site, too: http://www.villagevoice.com/movies/star-trek-the-imax-experience-783182/

What a strange thing.

I can only imagine Eric Jendresen’s reaction…

686. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 23, 2014

One thing is for sure, Pine had plenty of opportunity and pretty good sources on which to base comments about posting on the net.

687. Basement Blogger - August 23, 2014

@ 585

Ahmed says, “You’ve got a lovely attitude, you know that? I’m beginning to understand why Cygnus-X1 might think that you are one of MJ’s aliases”

Then Ahmed says @ 680

“Do you ever read your comments before hitting ‘Say it’ button?”

This requires an Internet phrase the kids use. LOL!!! I point out that your two sentence review (554) of The Amazing Spider-Man 2 leaves out one of the main areas of drama, that being the Peter Parker-Gwen Stacy romance, with a joke and you can’t take it. You can dish it out but can’t take it. In fact your complaint is laughable in light of your treatment of Bob Orci and your similar remark to Keachick. . Talk about the pot calling kettle black.

688. Ahmed - August 23, 2014

@687. Basement Blogger

“In fact your complaint is laughable in light of your treatment of Bob Orci”

Ha! I see that you’re still stuck in that old argument back in September. In case you haven’t noticed Bob & I are on good terms since that incident. Just as a reminder, Bob was the one who overreacted by attacking Joseph Dickerson but I guess context is not important!

“I point out that your two sentence review (554) of The Amazing Spider-Man 2 leaves out one of the main areas of drama, that being the Peter Parker-Gwen Stacy romance,”

That is your opinion, which I don’t share.

689. Basement Blogger - August 23, 2014

@ 583

Dmduncan,

I don’t do that human activity in the basement. And I’m not talking about smoking the wacky weed. It’s too cold down there for that. Now maybe Harry Ballz can withstand the cold. The reason for that is because he’s Harry.

How did you know I got a thing for Holly Hunter? When I see an attractive woman that I’m flirting with I grab my heart like William Hurt did when he saw Holly Hunter at the party in “‘Broadcast News.”

690. Harry Ballz - August 23, 2014

@689 Basement Blogger

Bernie/BB, I’m glad to see you’re still with us.

A while back you seemed rather disenchanted with this site and were about give it the heave-ho.

I’m glad you decided to stick around. I enjoy your posts.

From what you once described, you have a pretty stressful job. How’s everything going in your life these days? Good I hope.

691. French Trekker - August 23, 2014

Sorry man, I’m a “Truefrench” as they say, from south of France.

For the record, I had the surprise a few years ago that Gates Mc Fadden bought a little house from a friend of mine near my hometown.

It was the occasion to have a drink with her and she’s a very nice and kind person by the way :)

692. Harry Ballz - August 24, 2014

@691 French Trekker

I’ve been to France, but only to Paris. What a grand city. Majestic. Loved it.

I’m looking forward to seeing the rest of your beautiful country.

693. Disinvited - August 24, 2014

#689. Basement Blogger – August 23, 2014

As the French bird says “Que incredibles!” anyone that appreciates the fineness that is Holly Hunter can’t be all Brad.

694. Disinvited - August 24, 2014

#685. Cygnus-X1 – August 23, 2014

The earliest, I’ve dug up so far for its introduction is May 6, 2009.

I’m sure there’ll be scoffers but I take for this to have occurred and gone uncorrected during its run as a further indication there was more to Jendreson’s script development than true believers care to admit.

695. Basement Blogger - August 24, 2014

@ 690

Harry,

Thank you for your concern. You do know that I was joking about you in 689. You see it’s a self deprecating joke. Dmduncan said that I do a certain human activity in the basement which is too cold for that. You see, it’s hard to do that human activity when it’s too cold. I was having fun with your moniker by saying being more Harry would make it less hard to do that human activity. You see having more Harry Ballz would make things warmer , easier and less hard…… Okay, I’ll admit I’m not an expert in that activity.

@ 691

French Trekker

Sounds cool to have a drink with Gates McFadden. I hope you have met our other French Trekker, Aurore. She likes to fly her starship around Paris though I have told her to stop. Going to warp in the atmosphere is not a good idea.. :-)

Check out her ship over Paris.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnUpJw5sahg

696. Curious Cadet - August 24, 2014

@684 Ahmed,

Perhaps this will help:

Bob Orci, please tell us what Chris Pine really meant and who he was talking about when he said those awful things about people who use the internet, like yourself, and confirm it could not have included his beloved Pine-nuts. Please don’t let us twist in the darkness!

;-)

697. Curious Cadet - August 24, 2014

@692. Harry Ballz,
“I’ve been to France, but only to Paris.”

I really thought this was going to turn into a randy limerick … Boy was I disappointed. ;-)

698. Disinvited - August 24, 2014

# 697. Curious Cadet – August 24, 2014

” I really thought this was going to turn into a randy limerick … Boy was I disappointed. ;-)” — Curious Cadet

If, by that, you mean he really dropped the ballz on that one, I don’t see anything he said precluding that.

699. Harry Ballz - August 24, 2014

I once took a trip to France
Trying to get in a girl’s pants
She said meet me in Paris
I did, and things went amiss
I never had much of a chance!

700. Ahmed - August 24, 2014

@696. Curious Cadet – August 24, 2014

“@684 Ahmed,

Perhaps this will help:

Bob Orci, please tell us what Chris Pine really meant and who he was talking about when he said those awful things about people who use the internet, like yourself, and confirm it could not have included his beloved Pine-nuts. Please don’t let us twist in the darkness!

;-)”

LOL

701. Keachick (Rose) - August 24, 2014

Basement Blogger was responding to the comments made here now.

BTW, Ahmed, what has Bob Orci’s response to Joseph Dickerson’s article got to do with the response he made to you because of what YOU wrote, not what Joseph Dickerson wrote? Do not fudge the issue.

Orci did not like/agree with the article (neither did others either, for that matter), but it was YOUR behaviour that sparked his most angry response, the one that got greater internet media coverage than anything else. You are clearly proud of your behaviour and don’t show the slightest understanding or apology for your own rude and provocative ways for then or now.

Curious Cadet definitely does not get it either with his repeat of what Chris Pine said earlier this year (which, unfortunately, was not Chris’s finest moment, for reasons that I have elaborated at other times), followed by his question to Bob Orci re the Pine comments. The question is a bit daft, since how would Bob Orci know what Chris meant, since he is not Chris?

Of course, you and I know why you mention what Chris Pine said (or was misquoted or quoted out of context – not sure) seven months ago with regard to *people* who post on the internet. This has nothing to do with genuine discussion on what might be deemed correct behaviour or otherwise, because there are likely plenty of articles around that discuss the positive and negative effects of being on the internet (writing or just reading) can have on some people. No, you chose to quote Chris Pine in order to make your comments towards me more personal in nature. That makes you a pillock.

You all think that you are being so clever and funny…Hahaha – not.

702. TUP - August 24, 2014

@ Curious Cadet – I agree to an extent. We *can* care about these characters but not because they have names “Kirk” and “Spock” because they arent the same Kirk and Spock. Thats what the MWI did. We can care about them if, dramatically, they are written as characters we care about. I dont care about them yet.

The entire WoK homage scene (which I repeat, I liked for what it was) relied on us as viewers caring about Shatner’s Kirk, and Nimoy’s Spock and understanding the generational friendship between the two. It played on our love of THOSE characters and the WoK. Which is why this whole idea of “freeing from canon” rings hollow.

And thats the root of the issue. These film makers havent decided what Star Trek is. Is it new original takes on the TOS concept? Is it a time travel epic where our “hero” from the future went back to the past? Is it the exact same characters we know and love but pre-TOS? What is it? Is it canon or is it not? They arent focused on what they want it to be.

Marja – My issue with Denzel was I found that he played the same uber arrogant character in every film. Super ego. And then I read an interview with him where he was directing something and he remarked that the hard part was working with young actors because he knew his performance was always going to be perfect, but he had to worry about theirs. And I thought wow, what a D bag. But the majority of his films are great. I think FLIGHT really changed my mind. It was just so good. And he showed more vulnerability.

703. TUP - August 24, 2014

Hey Keachick, if you want to insult me for “getting the movie wrong” at least point out how so. So then I have something specific to respond to and make you look like an idiot.

For someone that spend a lot of time whining about everyone else, you sure are quick to insult people. A lot of internal bitterness in you it seems. Maybe go stare at your framed pictures of Pine’s bare ass and calm down.

@Curious Cadet – I also agree that there i no issue with Retconning Khan’s time in power from the 90’s to the mid 2000’s. Until ofcourse we hit 2050 and it still didnt happen…lol

704. Curious Cadet - August 24, 2014

@702 TUP,
“The entire WoK homage scene…relied on us as viewers caring about Shatner’s Kirk, and Nimoy’s Spock and understanding the generational friendship between the two”

Yes, it did. And it makes me wonder what someone who went to see Star Trek for the first time in their lives thought. We all know the history between the two in the a prime universe, so I agree we’re supposed to superimpose that on the new guys. It rang hollow for me, because I don’t see a deep meaningful relationship between Kirk and Spock yet. That’s why it’s should have been Pike. But what did a first time audience think? Would they have simply reacted to the drama of the two characters? Did it resonate on a human level? Were they able to respond to the sacrifice and death as much as we did during the original scene in TWOK?

705. Tom - August 24, 2014

Have the Paramount execs read the first draft yet? As Ted Knight said in Caddyshack ” Well, We’re waiting”

Could Bob be on a second draft? Could he be signing the dotted line to direct because they loved the draft?

706. Keachick (Rose) - August 24, 2014

#648 TUP – “So…. if someone doesnt “get” STID its because the true meaning and depth was purposely hidden. lol Okay.”

and I asked here of you, TUP, here –

#678 – “Are you referring to the contents of my post above, #647?”

And this is TUP’s response above –

#703 – “Hey Keachick, if you want to insult me for “getting the movie wrong” at least point out how so. So then I have something specific to respond to and make you look like an idiot.”

followed by a personal insult by the same TUP and who simply get over the fact that I actually shared part of an original story idea with this site and appeared obsessed with the notion of Pine’s bare ass (a picture of which I doubt even actually exists).

“For someone that spend a lot of time whining about everyone else, you sure are quick to insult people. A lot of internal bitterness in you it seems. Maybe go stare at your framed pictures of Pine’s bare ass and calm down.”

What is GLARINGLY OBVIOUS is that TUP did not answer my question,
“Are you referring to the contents of my post above, #647?” A simple yes or no would have sufficed. This is the third time I have now posted this question. If the answer is Yes, then I have already given my response which TUP has not liked but has no answer for except to refer me to look at (non-existent) pictures of Pine’s bare ass.

What more can I say – any internal bitterness has coming from TUP and co., all because they didn’t get the exact movie they wanted and are griping about it ever since and keep writing silly stuff, instead of answering a simple question. I am guessing the answer was Yes…

707. Keachick (Rose) - August 24, 2014

darn – meant to read “…who simply CAN’T get over the fact…”

708. boborci - August 24, 2014

cam, and will not speak for Pine:)

709. Harry Ballz - August 24, 2014

Bob, I’m not clear on what that means.

710. TUP - August 25, 2014

Keachick – you called me a moron. I responded in kind referring to making you look like an idiot. That was wrong of me. You need no help from me in making yourself look idiotic.

And yes, obviously, I was referring to your post at 647. The idea that the people who disliked STID or felt the plot, meaning, arcs etc were less than fleshed out simply didnt “get” the film and see its meaning it idiocy. If you make a movie and people dont get it, is it the fault of the audience or the film makers? Pretending STID is so intellecual that many long time Trek fans wouldnt understand it is laughable.

If Im Bob, I’m happy that the general public at large liked the movie. That assures I make lots of money and get repeat bookings as writer etc. But if I truly care about the source material then its sites like this that I go to to see how the core fans perceived the film. And rather than argue, get defensive or swear at those fans, I take what they say to heart. We’re not all right all the time. But there are enough Trek fans of the same mind that they are likely on to to something. STID just wasnt good enough – the characterization of Khan was awful and the lame death of Pike was a major disappointment that didnt move the plot along in the emotional way it was intended.

711. TUP - August 25, 2014

@Curious Cadet – I think to new fans the WoK homage probably played like a normal “death” scene. And to be fair, that sort of fan servicing is needed in these types of films. Where they write something that is perfectly acceptable as a new concept to a new viewer but has meaning to fans.

For example, having Bones’ nurse be Christine Chapel. A newbie wouldnt even give it a thought. Thats a nurse, thats her name, so what. To us fans, its important.

I would suspect that on viewing 1, the WoK scene meant more to long time fans. On subsequent viewing it probably meant more to newbies. Us long time fans got past the emotion and nostalgia and saw it for how lame it was. And we probably wondered why it wasnt Pike in that chamber.

Actually question for BobOrci – was there every any consideration to Pike being the one sacrificing himself in the chamber at the end?

712. Gary 8.5 - August 25, 2014

711.If Pike did not die until the end ,
Kirk would have been first officer throughout the film and unable to be part of the main thrust of the story .

713. B Kramer - August 25, 2014

671 Balls u nuts.

714. Disinvited - August 25, 2014

# 712. Gary 8.5 – August 25, 2014

” 711.If Pike did not die until the end ,
Kirk would have been first officer throughout the film and unable to be part of the main thrust of the story .” — Gary 8.5

Non sequitur. In their 2009 effort Pike did not die and Kirk was able to be the main thrust of that story.

715. Disinvited - August 25, 2014

# 709. Harry Ballz – August 24, 2014

” Bob, I’m not clear on what that means.” — Harry Ballz

In Bob’s parlance, “cam” most likely refers to “camera” but it could also be a reference to James Cameron.

Bob can’t possibly even approach speaking for anyone having to do with Paramount’s next Trek until said Paramount signs off on the script. Can he?

716. Ace Hamilton - August 25, 2014

Which are you leaning towards: Star Trek: Mission Accomplished or Star Trek: The Deciders?

717. Who cares - August 25, 2014

@TUP. Hanks is a good actor in your opinion, in my opinion he is not. I am sure there are actors that I think are good that you do not, that is just how it goes. I tried to watch Castaway, walked out of the theater. I do have kids, and despite my deep, deep, hatred for the Disney corporation, I have seen all of the Toy Story movies, and I will give Hanks credit for a decent voice acting job.

I made it about half way through Apollo 13, sadly it is less acurate than Gravity, and as I have mentioned before I expect more accuracy from movies “based on a true story”, or like Gravity supposedly taking place in the real world, Apollo 13 doesn’t have it.

718. Keachick (Rose) - August 25, 2014

TUP – You might have read my comment but you obviously did not understand it. Let me clarify –

My comment at #647 was to do with a number of posters calling out the “bad writing” of a story which tells of having such a huge facility apparently “hidden” near Jupiter where Admiral Marcus and his various anonymous supporters were having a massive warship built and the rest. The main objection from commenters was to do with how ordinary members of Starfleet and others would not have known about this installation etc. To them, the story did not make sense.

I explained in my post above #647 (and in another a little while back) how the story could make sense and showed how, in the PRESENT day, similar occurs. That is what that post was about. I thought I had been clear.

However, TUP decided to write this – “So…. if someone doesnt “get” STID its because the true meaning and depth was purposely hidden. lol Okay.”

I was nonplussed by this comment and asked if he was referring to my comment at #647? Unfortunately, I also said that if the answer was Yes, then he was being something of a moron, because his comment above was NOT what I was getting at in my post #647.

My post that referred to similar present day situations has been met with

* a simple question that has gone unanswered (but it has, though, hasn’t it?)

* repeating what an actor said some time ago, asking another person to speak for that actor

* reference made to that same actor’s naked rear end and pictures that, quite likely, do not exist.

If you want idiocy – there, you have your idiocy. The ones responsible for this idiocy – none other than TUP and Ahmed (why am I not surprised?…:( )

I rest my case.

719. Keachick (Rose) - August 25, 2014

Not forgetting Curious Cadet…

720. TUP - August 25, 2014

Keachick, I dont know whether you’re serious and just a less-than-intelligent troll with a massive ego and Pine’s butt’s wallpapered all over your bedroom or if this is a gimmick account for you. In any event, you spend more time whining about other posters than discussing Star Trek. Get over it or get lost.

@ Who Cares – Yeah I hear ya. I think Tom Hanks would be good in Trek because he likes Trek (if I recall, he was up for the Cochran role in First Contact) and is a big name that would sell tickets. But the draw back might be that he’s too TOM HANKS and would take you out of the film whenever he’s on screen. He’s too contemporary.

Its too bad Weller was a one and done. If he had been introduced in 09 and used throughout, it would have been great. He’s a very good unique actor.

@Gary 8.5 – Pike dying at the end (in my opinion, being critically wounded but not dying) would require the movie being changed but that would only be to it’s benefit. If Marcus played the other side of the same coin to Pike and was another father/authority figure to Kirk, it creates a scenario where, throughout the film you dont know if Kirk will do the right thing or wrong thing, whether he will embrace Pike’s ideals, Marcus’ or create his own somewhere in the middle. I think Pike’s sacrifice becomes much more emotional, much deeper as a result than Kirk’s magic ressurrection.

The glaring issue to me is that Pike making it to the end would seem to take away Spock’s great chase sequence since Kirk would no doubt be the one wanting to go after Khan. They would have to include a reasonable way to keep it as same (Kirk opening the chamber against advice to try and save Pike, thus, exposing himself? Not enough to do permanent damage, but enough to be in sickbay for the chase sequence?

721. Keachick (Rose) - August 25, 2014

OT – Today it is 26 August and right now it is sunny, blue skies with scattered grey/white clouds and temperature on the cool side – at least where I am, in Auckland – time 8.00am.

So this must mean – HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CHRIS PINE (Captain Fine) and so fine you are too!

More to come…:)

If you would be so kind, Bob Orci, please pass on any/all of my birthday greetings to Chris Pine. I’m pretty sure that you would be able to. Thank you, Rose.

722. Keachick (Rose) - August 25, 2014

“And yes, obviously, I was referring to your post at 647. The idea that the people who disliked STID or felt the plot, meaning, arcs etc were less than fleshed out simply didnt “get” the film and see its meaning it idiocy. If you make a movie and people dont get it, is it the fault of the audience or the film makers? Pretending STID is so intellecual that many long time Trek fans wouldnt understand it is laughable.”

TUP – “Pretending STID is so intellectual that many long time Trek fans wouldnt understand it is laughable.”

I have never said that STID was “so intellectual” and nor have I pretended anything. This is all coming from you. Stop projecting your own emotional or intellectual adequacies/inadequacies onto others, especially me. I don’t like it. What’s the matter with you?

Never mind…:((

723. TUP - August 25, 2014

Keachick is my biggest fan! Well she’s a bigger fan of Chris Pine’s butt (look over your should Chris). You sure do go to a lot of trouble to prove your superiority over others when all it does is confirm you’re a raving moron. I’d also call you a ****ing **** with her ****** shoved ***-wise in your ****. But I think that might get my post deleted. I keed I keed.

724. French Trekker - August 25, 2014

@692. Harry Ballz

You’re welcome !

South of France is very different from Paris but it has its charm too.

725. French Trekker - August 25, 2014

@695. Basement Blogger

Didn’t have the pleasure to meet her, but I’d love to :)

726. Ahmed - August 25, 2014

@TUP,

I think we should listen to the Admin & stop replying to Keachick .

===========================

219. Admin – July 21, 2014

Keachick

It may be best for you to stop taking everything so seriously and personally. We really don’t have time to get into all these flare-ups and invariably they generally involve you complaining about one poster or another.

Everyone else, maybe stop replying to Keachick.

Chill pills all around please
===========================

Activate “Ignore” mode NOW :-)

727. Keachick (Rose) - August 25, 2014

I never mentioned Chris Pine’s butt – you did. I think that Chris should be more concerned about you, TUP – really, honestly. I live 14,000kms away. What about you, the one who keeps bringing up CP’s naked anatomy, not me?

Now I am being all superior apparently, because I query your non-answers, I query the fact that you mention irrelevancies in order to derail discussion. However, it seems that you have no trouble being all so bloody superior in just about everything you write, whether or not it makes any sense at all.

In fact, that’s been your theme all along – Look how superior I (TUP) am because I can call out writers about how bad their writing was over and over and over, saying nothing new. You, TUP, indeed manage to imply that because you are an old fan, you lack the intellectual capacity to understand the new BR films, other than tearing them apart, with little reason or logic. One example –
“TUP – “Pretending STID is so intellectual that many long time Trek fans wouldnt understand it is laughable.”’

I don’t have to pretend anything. I am one of those “many long time Trek fans” (I saw my first Star Trek in 1968). You little snot! Why wouldn’t long time Trek fans understand STID any less or any more than younger fans/others?

TUP – You are an arrogant, small minded, simpleton who is also one big ugly snot/snob! There I have said it.

You can ignore me all you want. It is obvious that you have already, because you would not keep writing the silly bs that you do write, imagining that I am doing something when I am not.

I have not complained about anyone to the Admin. Where is the point in doing that?

728. TUP - August 25, 2014

Ahmed, you’re right. She’s a piece of work (among other things). Time
To ignore.

729. Curious Cadet - August 25, 2014

@711. TUP,
“I think to new fans the WoK homage probably played like a normal “death” scene.”

Did it? A casual viewer even watching TWOK, saw Kirk and Spock in intimate situations leading up to the death scene. It was clear these two care for each other. Throughout the film, their easy camaraderie, if for no other reason than they had been working together for two decades, read as special and important. When Spock died, it would have been sad for anyone given the setup.

But George Kirk sacrificing himself to save his newborn child even as he names the child while knowingly facing death, was sad without knowing a thing about the characters. Kirk’s death likewise was as hollow. It was a sad situation, hero of the film sacrifices himself to save the ship. How can the audience not react? Emotions by the numbers. But where was the setup for the friendship that would send Spock off the deep end emotionally? Or the setup for Pike’s death for that matter? There was no substance in these deaths. We never saw the bond, the friendship between Kirk and Spock. There was no scene, much less scenes, where they established the basis for the audience to feel Spock’s pain, or grieve for Kirk the way Spock’s death impacted Kirk and crew in TWOK.

Maybe audiences today are used to such manipulative death scenes, and in that sense it was “normal”. But it certainly didn’t carry with it the weight or impact the sacred ground on which Orci decided to trample should have imparted.

730. Who cares - August 25, 2014

@Curious Cadet. “Sacred ground” Come on man stop trying to act like Star Trek is more than it is. Nothing about Star Trek is now or ever will be sacred. It is just an entertainment franchise, a body of fiction, nothing more, nothing less.

Star trek is no more sacred than the Brady Bunch, Lost In Space, The Addams Family, Charlie’s Angels, Rescue 911, Person of Interest, NCIS, or any other TV and/or movie series ever made.

731. Cygnus-X1 - August 25, 2014

730. Who cares – August 25, 2014

@Curious Cadet. “Sacred ground” Come on man stop trying to act like Star Trek is more than it is. Nothing about Star Trek is now or ever will be sacred. It is just an entertainment franchise, a body of fiction, nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, man… How could you possibly think this? Even people who aren’t Trek-fans can appreciate the influence that Star Trek has had on Western culture above and beyond mere “entertainment.”

Star trek is no more sacred than the Brady Bunch, Lost In Space, The Addams Family, Charlie’s Angels, Rescue 911, Person of Interest, NCIS, or any other TV and/or movie series ever made

Yeah? Did The Addams Family espouse a well articulated and developed world view? What was the Charlie’s Angels philosophy, exactly? What were the life-saving technological inventions inspired by the Brady Bunch? How many astronauts and influential scientists were inspired into their fields by those other shows?

I’m going to bite my tongue here and leave it at this: Your value judgment has obvious flaws.

732. B Kramer - August 25, 2014

731 When fans saw the original WOK Spock death scene many cried genuine tears: that is what is special-sacred and powerful. Even crew on set were crying behind the scenes.

When fans saw the Kirk STID “death scene” they were laughing and moaning.

Sorry re all those shows you mentioned, ST is in a league of it’s own.

733. Li'l Shat - August 26, 2014

@732

You just can’t flip that scene. However clever these lazy writers thought it might be, you can’t take the literal decades people had viewing the evolution of Kirk and Spock’s relationship culminating in Spock’s meaningful, relevant and poignant death, and then flip it around to make NuKirk die while Spock screams “KHAAAAANNNN!!!!” and then have NuKirk resurrected moments later via Khan blood tested on dead tribbles. The impact is not the same.

For one thing, there is no meaningful relationship yet between Kirk and Spock. Oh, I know the second movie tries to force it, but you just can’t. You can’t do in two blockbuster movies what took decades to forge before.

For another thing, when Spock died, it was handled with real grace. In this STID popcorn flick, Kirk died and came back–within minutes of dying and in the same movie! It’s just not the same as the Wrath of Khan. It’s not a mirror image, it just isn’t. It’s a cheap emo version of what went before.

And don’t even get me started on Weak In Love Spock having to phone Strong Solitary and Out of His Timelime Spock in order to decide what to do.

That was weak and totally undermined the new crew’s ability to take care of themselves. And Khan wasn’t even the most formidable enemy the original crew faced! He just happened to be the most popular villain due to the second original crew’s movie’s success, so since we’re making movies and all, we have to try and bank on that success.

734. TUP - August 26, 2014

You all make wonderful points (except for Keachick, she’s not capable of making wonderful points).

The writers completely relied upon the emotional success of WoK and the knowledge fans had of the decades-long relationship between Kirk & Spock to “make” that scene in STID. It didnt really play right either. In TOS, when Kirk was thought dead, Spock didnt have an emotional breakdown. His emotion and friendship was played much for subtle and for the benefit of the show. And yet here he is, breaking down and it ring hollow. Its almost as if he is reacting to the decades long relationship. We could believe the pain if it was Nimoy and Shatner. Quinto and Pine, not so much.

But hey, they freed themselves from canon right? Unless they need some dramatic or emotional oomph. Then it’s “helllllooooo canon”.

I also agree that the scene likely didnt play that well for new fans. While I said it played as a “normal” death scene, that doesnt mean it played as a “good” death scene. On its own, it was “okay”. The undoing the death minutes later and thus mocking of whatever emotional reaction the viewer had really did it a dis-service. If they had left Kirk dead, then it would have meant more but ofcourse they couldnt do that, which is why the Kirk “death” was a bad idea to begin with. Make it Pike, let the “blood” save him but not restore him and now you’ve some consequences. You’ve got a lesson for Kirk to learn from, a burden for him to carry. STID wrapped things up too neatly.

When Bones looks over at the tribble and it moves, there was actually groans in my theatre. It was SO heavy-handed. It was an anvil dropping from the cieling. I almost want to give Orci a pass because I cant believe he had anything to do with the magic blood storyline. @BobOrci please confirm or deny. But that narrative was different than anything in 09 so I presume it was Lindelof. From the very out of place “What are you doing with that Tribble” to the sudden movement of said Tribble and realization the blood had magic properties, it was an anvil thread of a storyline and completely silly within the more realistic context of the film.

Again, I’d love to know from BobOrci was it ever considered to have Pike “die” at the end rather than Kirk?

735. Who cares - August 26, 2014

@Everyone. There is nothing sacred about Star Trek and never will be. I 100 percent stand by my statement and I will go one further. Anyone who thinks there is something sacred about Trek is delusional at best, absolutely bat—- crazy at worst. It does not matter what “influence” it may or may not have had or any other d–n thing, it is a TV SHOW. Try making the world and people around you more important than a TV show and maybe, just maybe, we human beings might just find ourselves living in a better world someday. Obsessing over fiction will never get us there.

736. Curious Cadet - August 26, 2014

@734. TUP,
“But that narrative was different than anything in 09 so I presume it was Lindelof.”

Lindelof’s a genius.

737. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 26, 2014

735. Who cares

I’ll take the challenge.

Sorry. but one of my favorite memories is staying up way, way, way past bedtime to watch Trek come on at 3:30 in the morning, Just to watch all those original episodes on the old family color t.v. set, which was often out of tune and always required several antennae.

I was only 16 at the time, and the whole experience damned near ruined my high school education, but I will never forget all those nights racing through space on the back of a Warp engine, with a crew that seemed to be capable of anything.

Who cares? I do. And that is what is what is sacred for me, with Trek.

738. boborci - August 26, 2014

I like Keachick.

Like that she is getting reaction out of some that some will never get out of me again:;)

A good standard for each of your responses might be: if anyone affiliated with the movie said it, what would press say?

739. B Kramer - August 26, 2014

735 wc, go watch “Lost in Space” S2,&3 they’re more suited for you.

740. Disinvited - August 26, 2014

# 730.&735. Who cares – August 25, 2014

” It is just an entertainment franchise, a body of fiction, nothing more, nothing less.” — Who cares

“Try making the world and people around you more important than a TV show and maybe, just maybe, we human beings might just find ourselves living in a better world someday. Obsessing over fiction will never get us there.” — Who cares

To live in a better world, one has to be able to imagine it. According to the inventors of the cell phone and the MRI, to cite two examples of many, STAR TREK directly facilitated that in attributing the show as to their inspiration and focus.

Your attempt to pigeonhole it as nothing more than LOST IN SPACE betrays an extreme prejudice that it would take to completely ignore the impact history shows that STAR TREK had on the culture that produced the people that watched it – dare I say: religiously?

741. Disinvited - August 26, 2014

# 738. boborci – August 26, 2014

” A good standard for each of your responses might be: if anyone affiliated with the movie said it, what would press say?” — boborci

An interesting enough thing to invoke, but you do realize that in the 50 some odd years that Trek has existed, no matter how eloquent the fan, the popular press would manage to say something dismissive and in some way demeaning?

Your intent is reasonable enough, I’m just not sure reality is in any way capable of cashing your check, as I am sure you yourself, in reflection, will admit in your own positive, and yet ignored in this manner, experiences as a fan with said press?

742. Ahmed - August 26, 2014

@735. Who cares

“There is nothing sacred about Star Trek and never will be.”

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but for the rest of us Star Trek is more than just a TV show. Look around you & see how it has impacted life directly & indirectly.

NASA : The Science of Star Trek

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/star_trek.html

Forbes: 8 Star Trek Technologies Moving From Science Fiction To Science Fact

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2014/06/24/8-star-trek-technologies/

NSA director modeled war room after Star Trek’s Enterprise

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/nsa-director-modeled-war-room-after-star-treks-enterprise/

STAR TREK – How It Changed The World

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6mYewGt2VY

743. Mike Barnett - August 26, 2014

TUP:

The producers can’t please 100% of the audience. That would be nearly impossible. If you are very lucky, 90 to 95% of the audience would walk out after the movie with positive impressions. Based on critic/audience reviews, STID falls into the 85-90% approval range. So you and the other nuTrek haters are among the approx. 10 to 15% who don’t like STID. THE SILENT MAJORITY, like Keachick (Rose) and myself, approve of the movie.

I went to a couple showings in the opening days, the audience was full of Trek fans (obvious because of the costumes they were wearing), and there were NO GROANS or BOO’s during the reactor scene. A good chunck of the audience clapped when the credits started to roll. I went the first night with three family members who don’t watch Trek and they did get emotional when Kirk was dying. My young-adult children liked the fast pace of the movie. I’ve gone on record (not that it matters) wishing that we, the audience, could catch our breath every once in a while so that we can fully absorb the high energy scenes that just happened. I actually long for more interaction between the characters, especially Kirk, Spock & McCoy. My fingers are crossed that Bob will make that so in Star Trek 2016.

I’m just letting y’all know that Rose isn’t alone in her opinions. I’ve been watching Trek since 9/8/66 and NuTrek is finally the major-league big-budget movie franchise that I’ve been waiting for.

744. B Khan - August 26, 2014

743 Saw STID 2 times at the cinema & most assuredly, I tell you there were moans and nervous laughter at: I am Khan, reactor death scene and Kahnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn among others.

745. TUP - August 26, 2014

@Boborci what did the press say when you told a fan to F off? ;-)

There will always be (and should be) a higher standard for those involved with the film then fans on a message board. Personally, I love that Keachick goes nuts everytime someone disagrees with her. But it doesnt it surprise me that you like her while ignoring many of the well thout out criticism of the film. Human nature I guess.

@Curious Cadet – Is that sarcasm regarding Lindelof? I dont know his work specificially enough to know either way. I just recall many being weary of his input prior to STID and then after the release many people assuming his influence is what derailed the film as compared to the “tighter” effort of 09. Plus, wasnt he the “genius” behind Lost and the guy that admitted in an interview that the writers had no clue what they were doing plot-wise on that show (and it showed, to the terrible detriment of a wonderful concept).

Actually speaking of Lost, I meant to comment as some were discussing it the other day. I never watched it first run but binged on it on Netflix a year or so ago (maybe two). An astounding debut episode. Fantastic first season. Great characters. Great concept. Great narrative. And a MASSIVE disappointment until the finale.

When they addmitted they created major plot points with no idea how to get out of it or what the end result was going to be, it sure showed. So many cool ideas ended up disappointments. Many groan-worthy moments too.

But I enjoyed the finale. its difficult for a great show to have a great finale I think. Sometimes shows try to hard and fail. Other times you just cant live up to the hype. I enjoyed the ending. I found it satisfying and provided closure on the characters if not the multutude of dangling plot strings.

Watching Shatner’s TNG documentary last night (very good BTW), it occured to me that TNG had a tremendous finale. This past weekend, True Blood ended and while many fans seem to be whining about it, I enjoyed it very much. Cheers comes to mind as another really good finale. Seinfeld, not so much. Sopranos was okay but was never going to live up to the hype and sort of collapsed under it’s own weight and simply ran out of time.

746. Cygnus-X1 - August 26, 2014

729. Curious Cadet – August 25, 2014
734. TUP – August 26, 2014
733. Li’l Shat – August 26, 2014

@732 You just can’t flip that scene. However clever these lazy writers thought it might be, you can’t take the literal decades people had viewing the evolution of Kirk and Spock’s relationship culminating in Spock’s meaningful, relevant and poignant death, and then flip it around to make NuKirk die while Spock screams “KHAAAAANNNN!!!!” and then have NuKirk resurrected moments later via Khan blood tested on dead tribbles. The impact is not the same.

I agree with you all, of course.

And I would add that it’s not just lazy writing. Yes, there is lazy writing in STID—conclusions stated or implied by the dialogue and events that are never actually worked through for the benefit of the audience; i.e. things “told” rather than “shown,” (like Kirk’s lesson-learned epilogue; and Khan’s escape-from-Section-31 backstory) to paraphrase a classic writing lesson.

But, in addition to the lazy writing is another factor over which the writers had no control and over which they will likely have no control in the upcoming movie: time.

Every bit of info that has come to us has indicated that Paramount has been ordering up these BR movies baked according to a certain recipe, a recipe which most notably comprises a much larger serving of action than Trek movies (and good movies, in general) have relied upon in the past.

The foreign market LOVES ACTION! Can’t get enough action! Wall-to-wall action! The characters must not stop RUNNING to and fro! Please, whatever you do, by God, don’t stop the ACTION! Or, we’ll lose interest!!!

The point being that even if the two frat boys (and Bob) manage to write a really good script, they’re not likely to have the time to meaningfully develop it on screen. Yes, the ripped-off WOK death scene in STID comes across as shallow and superficial (and shameless, IMO) because it’s trying (and failing) to imitate the emotional resonance of a decades-long relationship come to an end in TWOK, but instead with two characters who, not only barely know each other, but who simply haven’t been through much together. But, the cheap imitation in STID is also a victim of a simple lack of one important resource—(wait for it)—time.

No matter how good the script might be (and almost no one has argued that STID was a good script), there’s no substitute for screen-time as an essential ingredient for characters interacting with each other and developing their relationships within the story.

No matter how snappy and clever the dialogue might be between two characters (not that the dialogue between Kirk and Spock in STID was particularly snappy), if we only experience their relationship for a few seconds of screen-time here and there before we’re asked to empathize with one of them over a tragedy that befalls the other, we’re simply not going to be emotionally invested with regard to the meaningfulness of the relationship.

We might feel as we would for any generic re-creation of a tragic event on-screen—like the husband sacrificing his life as his wife gives birth to their child in ST09—but our feelings will not carry over to the story as a whole, nor particularly to the characters. It’ll be more like, His buddy just died. As opposed to, His friend of 15 years, with whom he has endured and suffered these events—A, B & C—and whose relationship has grown from A to Z, has just died in “this” particular manner the implications of which are “so-and-so.”

In short, and if you’ll pardon the cheese: you just can’t fake quality time. Even in a movie. (Well, you can, to a degree. But not to enough of a degree when your movie has to be as action-packed as BR Trek 3 most likely has to be.)

747. TUP - August 26, 2014

Very good points Cygnus. I think that answers a lingering question in my mind about why some things rang hollow or seemed out of place – because they didnt have time to properly develop organically. I really disliked the Scotty/Kirk scene where Scotty leaves the ship. It seemed so forced just to have Scott end up on the big bad ship. Almost eye rolling.

When they try to include things for emotional depth it comes across like its being shoe-horned in. The Nimoy scene being another example. Its wonderful to see him again and given the choice, I’d rather see Nimoy in a pointless scene of a poor film than not at all. But literally that scene was pointless and only served to create more questions about Spock’s time in the past and his intentions and boundries. Like he wont divulge the future (even though its a different future) unless you ask? Then he will tell? Hmmm.

It also served to reveal the writers’ true motivations with the MWI nonsense. Quinto Spock asks Spock Prime if he ever came across Khan. Hey, what a coincedence…! The implication being that Khan was as dangerous to the past crew as he was to the future crew. It seems to me that the writers want to be in the past of the characters we know but were so fearful of being constrained by canon that they came up with the silly “canon freeing MWI” crap. In reality, even though we have 50 years of Trek on screen, they could have done a straight time travel film and have OUR characters exist in the same past universe without screwing with canon too much, since they clearly love to use canon to invoke an emotional response. They had a fear that proved to be unfounded.

748. Mike Barnett - August 26, 2014

@744. B Khan – August 26, 2014
“743 Saw STID 2 times at the cinema & most assuredly, I tell you there were moans and nervous laughter at: I am Khan, reactor death scene and Kahnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn among others.”

Whatever. I just wanted to let people know that the audience in my two showings did not react to those scenes like that. NuTrek haters make it sound like the moans, groans, occurred at all showings during the opening weekend.

749. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 26, 2014

Just thinking of Next Gen’s Finale.

I thought they did a great job summing up teir series with that great last episode. Trouble is, That type of treatment would be great for Treks next picture.

I wonder. Is bob orci is contemplating such a storyline for trek’s 50th?

I certainly would not mind, especially if it covers ALL 5 Trek series, and even if it encroatches into Next Gen’s ending theme a bit.

750. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 26, 2014

748. Mike Barnett

Not a Nu-Trek-Hater. But IMO, those scenes needed some help, structurally.

But who am I to say. The movie was entertaining, if not also frustrating to watch.

751. B Kramer - August 26, 2014

No problem Mike. Saw STID on opening day with some friends in 3D and that’s what I experienced. Saw it again in IMAX a week later with friend, the audience reaction wasn’t as bad but still had some of the same reactions.

(BTW I didn’t post as khan originally, it was changed from kramer by someone somehow -funny anyways -best.)

752. TUP - August 26, 2014

@ Mike Barnett – its not fair (and a rather lazy criticism) to call anyone who critiques the new films as NU TREK haters. I dont hate them. It feels like I often have to remind people that I LIKED the movies. I liked 09 more than STID. I liked 09 more BEFORE I saw STID actually. I am thrilled as a Trek fan that we finally got big budget treatments. But it’s almost laughable that the much smaller budgeted films had more depth, more emotion and spoke more to the source material and the fans then the new films with all the resources these film makers have.

If Paramount was going to spend so much money, why not have an action packed film AND wonderful drama and characters?

For the record, I saw STID in the theatre twice. Opening weekend and a couple of weeks later. Opening weekend was hardcore fans, many in “uniform” and reacting, cheering, laughing, etc along with the film. The “I am Khan” scene elicted a few gasps, and a few laughs. Second viewing with a less hardcore crowd that wouldnt have known all the spoilers, it was less of a reaction but the reaction was some “whhhaaat?” like a WTF reaction. Disbelief. Because CLEARLY this wasnt Khan.

I wonder what the reactions were of the test audiences…?

753. TUP - August 26, 2014

@749 – I agree. if I had my way, the new movie would use Nero’s arrival as the basis for the main plot point. Something that is tearing space/time apart. Make it a generations-spanning epic. Doesnt need EVERY character from all of Star Trek. But if Im the studio my directive would be to include Shatner, Nimoy and Stewart in KEY roles and include anyone else that fits organically. While *certain* writers might recoil under those “constraints” I am sure there are a ton of great writers who would LOVE to write that film.

754. Curious Cadet - August 26, 2014

@750. TrekMadeMeWonder,
“The movie was entertaining, if not also frustrating to watch.”

Exactly. It was a fine Summer popcorn flick. It did what it was supposed to do, it ticked all the necessary boxes as it cranked out the story into a sausage case. Audiences could check their brains at the door, and relax for the ride. Foreign audiences had very few subtitles to read. In that sense it was a good movie. Of course audiences came away with positive impressions. I even give it high marks on entertainment value.

The frustrating part was that it wasn’t a very good Star Trek movie.

755. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 26, 2014

Y’know.

The Lost in Space series was mentioned above as an example of a bad t.v. series, but in many ways the resulting big screen adaptation was so much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64QCCJzkMiw

Arguably, even better than STiD was a good Trek movie. LIS it had very few plot holes, and successfully upgraded many parts of the show.
I enjoyed the 1998 Lost in Space. Unfortunately, it did not prompt a sequel – that’s saying a lot, too.

756. Keachick (Rose) - August 26, 2014

Thank you, Bob Orci.

In my post #647, I was being serious, pointing out the similarities of what was shown in STID to what is going on now in our world, possibly under our very noses, yet we don’t know (for sure).

For my efforts, I was fobbed off by people making totally inappropriate comments about an actor’s bare ass (not once, but four times and on his birthday) and generally sneered at and dismissed.

TUP – how contemptible of you to use another person and my expressed affection for same as a pawn in whatever it is you think you are trying to achieve here. One thing I do know – it ain’t good.

The Admin. noted that I tend to take things too seriously, too personally. However, it is difficult not to sometimes, when I am trying to make a serious observation and explanation only to get comments that completely derail my original observations.

I know exactly how Bob Orci felt when he told Ahmed to “get f*cked” or whatever it was. TUP (along with his mates Ahmed, Cygnus and Curious Cadet) was doing the same to me. TUP would not answer my question, just as Ahmed would not explain to Bob Orci what STID was about, how he (Ahmed) understood, other than getting a response tantamount to “the film sucks” – not a good enough reply from someone who had damning the movie for weeks/months.

Yes, I realize that there are many older fans who have enjoyed the latest BR Star Trek films. I have expressed my thoughts as to what could have been done better or not at all, but I have also looked at what was interesting and worthwhile about the latest movie and have said so. Others, like Marja, have done so as well, which I do hope that Bob Orci et al have taken, what I believe and hope has been constructive criticism, under advisement.

757. Keachick (Rose) - August 26, 2014

To Chris Pine – now that it is 26 August upover

Happy Birthday and many happy returns for the year and always

“Why was he born so beautiful
Why was he born at all
The angels brought him down from heav’n
To shine a light for all”

A lady gave me this, from a book of hers (have no idea what). (my better half is also a Chris). Perhaps this may apply to you in some portion?

“Chris(topher)
Language/cultural origin: Greek
Inherent meaning: Bearer/carrier of Christ
Spiritual connotation: Anointed
Scripture – Galatians 6.17 (NIV)
‘Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus'”

Have a good one, Chris!

(Please – Bob Orci?!)

758. Curious Cadet - August 26, 2014

@745. TUP,
“Is that sarcasm regarding Lindelof?”

Yes, see Orci’s remarks @634.

I am a bit surprised you liked the ending of LOST. For me it was as bad as the ending for ALIAS — same producer, different writing team, coincidentally all three converged on STID, producing a very unsatisfying Star Trek film (NOT necessarily a bad MOVIE).

LOST was made all the worse since the fans guessed all the obvious endings during the first season: they’re dead, they’re in purgatory — and the producers denied those options. Then they had the gall to actually make one of those obvious solutions the actual ending. They had 6 years to come up with anything more original and much less predictable, and yet they still ended it that way. And on top of everything, effectively lied about from season one, whether intentional at the time or not.

759. Cygnus-X1 - August 26, 2014

752. TUP – August 26, 2014
754. Curious Cadet – August 26, 2014

@750. TrekMadeMeWonder,
“The movie was entertaining, if not also frustrating to watch.”

Exactly. It was a fine Summer popcorn flick… The frustrating part was that it wasn’t a very good Star Trek movie.

Ditto for me.

And further, the movie’s best attributes really had nothing necessarily to do with Trek. The space-jump of Kirk and Khan was thrilling. A great action sequence. But it might just as well have been two other characters in some other action movie doing that scene—in fact, that would have been better. Weller and B-Cumb were compelling, but could have been two bad guys in some other movie.

If STID had not been associated with Trek in any way, I’d have enjoyed it more. Sure, all of the writing problems would still have been present—and they do substantially diminish the movie on repeat viewings (after we’ve had time to think about the plot and the characters)—but I wouldn’t care as much. Just like I don’t care all that much about Iron Man’s magical suit in Iron Man 3 that flies all the way from Tennessee to NYC in 3 minutes of screen time to save the day. Yeah, it’s stupid. But I didn’t necessarily expect much more going in. And it doesn’t seem like any particular travesty to the original source material.

The problem here is that the BR Trek movies are using the source material in a largely different way than it was meant. I’m not going to rehash that whole argument again, but if you look at TOS, TNG, DS9 and the TOS movies, in particular, there is an unmistakably different artistic sensibility to them. The aforementioned Trek series and movies weren’t based on Kirk and Spock running around and action scenes most of the time. They just weren’t.

Action scenes used to be used to pay off the drama. In the BR Trek movies, that relation is almost reversed: the movie is so brimming with action that the dramatic scenes are more like the pay-off in explaining why all of the action has been happening. Khan attacks Star Fleet HQ and later we get a brief explanation as to why in the form of a dramatic scene in the Enterprise brig. Another set of action scenes and we finally get a dramatic pay-off in the form of Admiral Marcus confirming Kirk’s detective work and finally clearing up the whole convoluted plot.

The following is an exaggerated analogy meant to illustrate the point, but the BR Trek movies are sort of like turning Shakespeare’s Macbeth into an action-thriller. I’m all for action-thrillers, but Macbeth was never meant for that purpose and it’s a travesty to simply use that classic play as generic source material for your action-thriller. If you want to make a wall-to-wall action, run-around, shoot’em-up action movie, don’t use rich source material that was originally meant to be thought-provoking, sociopolitical allegory and conceptual science fiction—come up with new characters and a new “world” of your own. If you’re going to stand on the shoulders of giants, don’t just rip them off. Add something to the rich legacy that they’ve left you.

760. Disinvited - August 27, 2014

I agree, that LIS film story resonated with me on on far more many levels. It was written by Akiva Goldsman who you might recognize from his Bad Robot collaboration on FRINGE and also for his other written film contributions:

Practical Magic; A Beautiful Mind (Won Academy Award); I, Robot; Cinderella Man; The Da Vinci Code; I Am Legend; and Angels & Demons.

761. TUP - August 27, 2014

why does Keachick go on and on like a crazy person? I literally burst out laughing when I read her posts. Talk about obsessive. Time to get over it honey bunches.

@Curious Cadet – I had the advantage of knowing very little about Lost when I sat down and binge watched it. So the end was satisfying to me because I dislike those finales where we are offered no clue as to the future of the characters. Lost finale was good in the sense of closure and it was emotional. There was a lot left open though. I found Lost set up these great mysteries and then provided mundane answers. To me, the art of mystery is that once something is revealed, it all makes sense. Lost too often revealed something and everyone would go What The F8Ck? Its easy to “swerve” the viewer. It harder to write content that is mytsterious AND satisfying.

I dont want to seem like Im insulting the writers because I am sure they are all very accomplished and very smart and very technically sound. Whereas if you asked me to sit down and write a script, not a chance. I simply dont know how. But I dont feel like these writers are particularly exceptional. If you went to any creative writing school and hired three grads, they’d likely put together a technically proficient script, but only their particular creative talents would dictate whether it was just another script or a really insightful, wonderful story. These guys are technically sound, but not particularly talented as story tellers.

And I say that from the perspective of watching the Trek movies and seeing way too many opportunities to make the films better without cutting down the action. They missed so many chances. Some of those might have legitimate reasons like making the opening ship in 09 the Kelvin instead of the Enterprise (though the idea that seeing the E destroyed in the opening would tufn off fans is pretty lame IMO but at least its a real reason). Oh welll….

@cygnus – once again, a great post. STID would have worked better as a stand alone futuristic spy thriller/actioner than a Trek film. In fact, much like Die Hard with a Vengeance was a non-Die Hard script that later had the lead characters name changed to suddenly become Die Hard (and didnt fit in with the original Die Hard premise), its as if these Trek movies, particularly STID were an already-written script that someone spent about three hours changing names and locations to make it Star Trek.

762. B Kramer - August 27, 2014

733 Agreed.

763. B Kramer - August 27, 2014

I too enjoyed the LIS film.

764. Disinvited - August 27, 2014

One thing emerges clear to me:

STAR TREK being sacred is at best an ill fit, but to many in numbers still significant, it remains sacrosanct.

765. Keachick (Rose) - August 27, 2014

You wrote that you were going to put me on ignore, so why are you commenting on my posts? One of the posts was not directed towards you or anyone else, except Bob Orci and only Bob Orci, on this site. Ignoring also means not commenting.

When it comes to me sending Chris Pine or anyone else for that matter, birthday greetings or other, this site is a messenger, a delivery system, for me which I hope is able to fulfil my wishes. Until the admin. of trekmovie.com tells me otherwise, I shall continue to do as I have done here. I am doing anyone any harm – quite the reverse. You, TUP, on the other hand, are!

766. Keachick (Rose) - August 27, 2014

Oh for an edit system: should read, “I am NOTdoing anyone any harm” which is true.

767. TUP - August 27, 2014

I never said I was going to ignore you Keachick. You’re far too amusing (in a sad way) and I get far too much enjoyment out of your craziness.

Messenger to fulfill your wishes where Chris Pine is concerned? More like fulfill your fantasies. “Excuse me Mr Pine, may I have an autographed photo of you…no no, not your headshot, your ass-shot”.

768. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 27, 2014

Keachick (Rose), try not to be offended by the ill use of the simple txts people type here.

BTW. Its funny to see who pops up when you Google image search your name. I would love to have a photo to think of when I read your posts. Since I’ve already poseted mine, let’s see yours!

Just wondering. TMMW.

769. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 27, 2014

You, too, TUP (photo).

770. boborci - August 27, 2014

761 calling her “honey bunny” is sexist:)

771. Disinvited - August 27, 2014

# 770. boborci – August 27, 2014

” calling her “honey bunny” is sexist:)” — boborci

OK, but how about something somebody actually called her: honey bunches?

772. boborci - August 27, 2014

same

773. Keachick - August 27, 2014

Coming from TUP, “honey bunny”, “honey bunches” is a putdown and derogatory because that is what this poster is about – putting me down and sneering at what I write on this site. I also find TUP’s constant reference to Chris Pine’s ass crude and rude. It is inappropriate and taken completely out of context.

I do not know if “honey bunny” or “honey bunches” is sexist per se, but it is not a pleasant reference given this particular context.

I would ask that TUP refrain from making any further references to Chris Pine’s ass (or anyone else’s, for that matter) or to calling me other than Keachick. Thank you.

774. Tom - August 27, 2014

Keachick,TUP

Usually really enjoy both your posts, however we should treat this like a political debate. Make your arguments and then move on. Seems like just sniping at this point. Seriously you are both better than this. This is not meant to sound like a lecture just an opinion.

Bob. give us something new to talk about the movie. Just a morsel so we can talk or argue about something new :)

775. boborci - August 27, 2014

started the casting process today for other characters. any favs people wanna see in space?

776. Cygnus-X1 - August 27, 2014

775. boborci – August 27, 2014

started the casting process today for other characters. any favs people wanna see in space?

Some might like to see more of Chris Pine.

Perhaps you should promote him to Rear Admiral.

That would be a move that at least some fans could get behind.

(Sorry)

777. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 27, 2014

Is that a casting call for Trek , bob?

If so count me in! I was Gotham’s CFO in Dark Knight Rises. I got blown up in the stadium scene, but the character could be a good cross-over to any genre, or even revived in space after a treatment at an experiment stasis lab in India! Yes. That could definately work! ; )

Or, how about good old JFK in space. He deserves to make it there, he being the true creator of Star Fleet. Seriously, if you could write that scene I would be impressed!

778. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 27, 2014

776. Cygnus-X1

BTW, Cygnus that is funny.

779. TUP - August 27, 2014

Cygnus you’re a gem!!

Bob, “Honey Bunches” was meant to be dismissive not sexist ;)

How does one post pictures?

Bob – Denzel. But I assume you’re casting lower level parts (unless I’m off base). I’m partial to the two Anna’s – Camp and Kendrick.

780. Keachick (Rose) - August 28, 2014

TUP – If you did not know if I was a male or female, would you have called me “honey bunches”? Supposing I was male and expressed similar about Chris Pine, I have to wonder what the LGBT might have to say about your comments?

Interesting…hmmm.

On reflection, Bob Orci may be right in that it is not only a dismissive comment, but a sexist one at that.

The sad part of all this has been that the birthday of an actor who plays a major role in these new BR movies has gone unnoticed and replaced by petty comments that have nothing to do with my post #647 which sparked this nonsense and which is nothing but pathetic deflection. Nor have these stupid comments made about Chris Pine’s ass (more deflection) got anything to do with my wishing Chris good wishes upon his turning 34 years old.

TUP – you are certainly no candidate for any Good Samaritan Award.

How about it if people here actually acknowledge Chris Pine’s birth with some (genuine) pleasantries, belated though they are now. It does no one any harm to express good wishes towards another, whether they be close or a stranger.

Bob Orci – as for casting guest actors – like to see Tom Hardy – don’t know who he would play (just not Shinzon – please) – just musing…

781. Disinvited - August 28, 2014

#775. boborci – August 27, 2014

Mira Sorvino and Sarah Silverman come immediately to mind.

Probably any of the cast from JJ’s REVOLUTION would do a bang up job.

782. Valley Forge - August 28, 2014

@775. boborci

Alice Eve as Carol Marcus would be a nice return. To see Kirk and Carol start a relationship that would eventually end up with David would be a nice touch.

New casting, Martin Sheen is great, Stephen Lang is great, perhaps Tom Hanks in some Starfleet role (somehow), Damian Lewis.

I know it was done in the comics, but, if done in the film, James Marsden, or Billy Burke as Gary Mitchell could be good.

Is there any intention for any actors from previous, “Star Trek” series, or films to return? Any hints to plot, characters, story, year of setting? Anyway, good luck on the new alternate reality film. I enjoyed the previous two, the comics and the game.

783. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 28, 2014

I said it before. Justin Bieber as Charlie X.

It’s a no-brainer. It brings in the youth , it sells headlines. This thing sells itself!

And I can’t even imagine the parties, EVERYDAY on the set!

784. French Trekker - August 28, 2014

@775 boborci

Olivia Wilde if I remember correctly stated in the press that she’s a die hard fan of Star Trek. She’d love to participate, even with tons of make up.

And she’s a lovely actress too which is even better :)

Otherwise I have another idea, but I don’t think you heard about him : how about William Shatner ?

(Qui ne tente rien n’a rien…)

785. Mike Barnett - August 28, 2014

@775. boborci
….any favs people wanna see in space?

Maybe Matt Damon, Hugh Jackman plus throw in a couple Trek fans for some sort of background role….to represent 50 years of Trek fandom.

786. Tom - August 28, 2014

775 boborci

“started the casting process today for other characters. any favs people wanna see in space?”

Can we also red this as they like the first draft and evrything is a GO?

787. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 28, 2014

786. Tom

I’m thinking… YES!!!

788. Harry Ballz - August 28, 2014

Bob,

I, Harry Ballz, volunteer to play the Wookie in any crowd scene.

Oooops, wrong franchise!

Well, then, hell, just shave me and put me in ANYWHERE!

789. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 28, 2014

Careful, Harry.

Remember, your last name!

790. Harry Ballz - August 28, 2014

TMMW, tell me, if they hide me in a big crowd scene, where you can hardly see me, would that be considered being BALLZ DEEP in the movie?

791. Gary 8.5 - August 28, 2014

Harry has a good idea here.
I volunteer for Wookie#2!

792. TUP - August 28, 2014

Keachick – trust me, I wasnt being dismissive of you because you’re a woman. I was being dismissive of you because you’re a pathetic, self-absorbed goof. Now here, Ill play the accordion and you dance like a trained monkey…ready, 1…2…3…talk about me:

wink wink

As for casting, call me crazy but I like Effron.

793. Disinvited - August 28, 2014

# 780. Keachick (Rose) – August 28, 2014

” On reflection, Bob Orci may be right in that it is not only a dismissive comment, but a sexist one at that.” — Keachick (Rose)

Indeed, but I wonder if the Oats cereal people have ever got wind of this?:

http://www.postfoods.com/our-brands/honey-bunches-of-oats/

794. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 28, 2014

Like I was in DKR? Yup. That is very Ballz deep.

795. Keachick (Rose) - August 28, 2014

#793 – It is all about context. Just like other references made here by TUP and others – ie, taken completely out of context, therefore totally inappropriate, inane and offensive.

Perhaps there is someone who actually understands where I am coming from.

#792 – Gosh, is that the best you can do? Personal non grata.

796. Keachick (Rose) - August 28, 2014

Oh Harry, Harry…I can’t wait!…:)

797. Keachick (Rose) - August 28, 2014

Harry – What is it that you think needs shaving and why? Need to know…:)

798. Ahmed - August 28, 2014

@ 775. boborci – August 27, 2014

“started the casting process today for other characters. any favs people wanna see in space?”

Any of these guys would be nice :-)

Michael Fassbender, Lennie James, Jodie Foster, Ralph Fiennes, James Badge Dale, Don Cheadle, Christoph Waltz, Sean Bean, Keri Russell or Jake Gyllenhaal.

And I take it that Paramount approved the script since it won’t make any sense to start casting before that, right ?

799. Cygnus-X1 - August 28, 2014

I suggest a time-travel twist where Harry Ballz plays Lyndon Baines Johnson, Vice President of the US who has traveled from October 1963 forward into the 24th Century to carry out a preemptive strike against the Enterprise crew because he read Harry Ballz’s screenplay about Kirk & co. traveling back in time to prevent the JFK assassination and mistook it for a real plan to foil his presidential power-grab. (“Harry Ballz” is both the actor playing LBJ and also the character in the story who wrote the screenplay about preventing the JFK murder.)

But, entangled in ironies within paradoxes, the devious LBJ’s plot backfires by actually giving Kirk the idea of going back to stop the JFK assassination as depicted in Harry Ballz’s screenplay.

The drama builds to a climactic mano-a-mano fight scene on a catwalk over Dealy Plaza between the courageous Captain Kirk and the snarling, villainous LBJ. And just as LBJ gets the upper hand and is about to knock off Kirk, Harry Ballz (the writer of the screenplay featured in the plot, not the actor playing LBJ), having remained “Ballz deep” in the background of the story up to this point (as is his wont), emerges from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll and tosses a tiny drop of red matter at the nearly triumphant LBJ and a life-saving rope to Kirk. A spiraling black vortex appears just long enough to swallow LBJ while Kirk swings on the rope to safety

And the good Captain is thus rescued from a hairy situation by a “Harry” situation.

KIRK: Thanks, Harry. [wink] I owe ya one.

Whereupon Harry Ballz reverts into the background without asking a single question or uttering a single vocalization (as a cost-saving measure; budget on this one has been cut back down to $150 million or so and CGI ain’t cheap).

Oh, and the actor playing LBJ has to be credited as “Harry Ballz,” not by his real name.

800. Tom - August 28, 2014

Wow. Things are moving. Casting already after a first draft. Really sounds like Paramount liked it. Kudos Bob , Patrick., JD!!!

801. crazydaystrom - August 28, 2014

775. boborci
“any favs people wanna see in space?”

Sure-
Aaron Paul
Chiwetel Ejiofor
Viola Davis
Nathan Fillion
Sarah Paulson

And I second Ahmed’s James Badge Dale and Lennie James suggestions.

And I’d actually like to see a Lady Gaga alien.

Of course Tom Hanks would almost be too much to even dream of. But to make this list the most eclectic that’ll be offered, probably, how about a (Trekkie) Taylor Swift cameo?

802. crazydaystrom - August 28, 2014

And Bob I’ve been thinking about this off and on for a couple of weeks or more now but how about a scene, one not explicit or prurient, that implies something happenning with and between Spock and Uhura that’s intimate, passionate and (potentially most interesting) alien (this is science fiction, after all)! A very quick scene, not unlike the one from STID with Kirk and his cat-ladies, that perhaps begins with a camera shot in Uhura’s or Spock’s quarters, (the two of them off-camera), but we hear dialogue between them (in Vulcan, without subtitles for the sake of mystery) the sound of which implies that something’s going on between them that’s personal and in some way ALIEN….VULCAN! Then have them interrupted by a comm beep or something. Nothing vulgar of course or even necessarily envelope stretching (unless you want to) but something like I described here. Quick and PG-13 but designed to make us scratch our heads and go hmm?!? (in a good way)

I believe something like this has been suggested on this forum before. I think it could work and be intriguing as long as too much time isn’t wasted on it and the lines of good taste aren’t crossed.

803. Mike Barnett - August 28, 2014

775. boborci
“any favs people wanna see in space?”

I’d like to add to my fav list:
Jennifer Lawrence
Charlize Theron

804. Valley Forge - August 28, 2014

@802. crazydaystrom

Not bad. Have that seen at the beginning and one with Kirk and Carol at the end, with her mentioning leaving for Regula I to work on the Project Genesis. It would be a nice touch to set up a possible fourth film (that could, or could not, bring back Khan for his vengeance).

805. Keachick (Rose) - August 28, 2014

Cygnus-X1 – Didn’t Harry say he needed to shave? Oh hang on – I’m getting my “hairy” with my “Harry” mixed up. So you would have my dear Captain Fine do my more hanging?…OK then…:)

Some good actors have been mentioned here. I guess it depends on the role(s). Gosh, I would love to see Benedict Cumberbatch again with Chris Pine, but Ben not be Khan again…oh dear…what to do?…:(

I like the energy between these two actors.

Bob – any ideas?

806. Dee - lvs moonsurface - August 28, 2014

Mr. Orci? Zoe Saldana is pregnant, I suppose that when the shooting begin, the baby already has arrived, but … this fact somehow will affect the dynamics of Uhura in the film’s plot? were you thinking about that when writing her part on the movie?

807. Keachick (Rose) - August 28, 2014

Has anyone look at the poll lately about whether or not Spock and Uhura should continue their relationship in the next movie? Interestingly, the poll results so far very clearly favour the continuation of the relationship. And why not?

808. Harry Ballz - August 28, 2014

@799 Cygnus X-1

Cygnus, I’m impressed with how much thought you’ve given this. Nice.

Keachick, It’s pretty funny, considering I’m not a hairy guy to begin with.

809. Captain Slow - August 29, 2014

@ 775 boborci

Casting already? I wasn’t expecting that to start for months.

I can’t think of any specific actors I’d like to see. All I can suggest is to maybe add more color and variety to the cast.

810. TUP - August 29, 2014

Please cut the Uhura/Spock relationship if only because these writers seem to have a hard time writing realistic relationships AND within the context of a military setting. I’d have no issue with it if it was more subtle but there were a couple of scenes that were cringe-worthy.

It also forces the Spock character into an emotional role which brings us back to the idea that Spock as a tool to comment on humanity works when he’s a cold, calculating “machine” *most* of the time so that his emotional moments mean more, as opposed to being emotional most of the time.

If you respect the characters and source material please watch TOS and write them as such.

811. Cygnus-X1 - August 29, 2014

Yeah, please no more patent emotionalism from the Vulcan character in this movie.

If Paramount orders up “more emotion” or whatever, just write a new character for that purpose — “Emotional Dave” or something. And whatever the situation, Emotional Dave can find it gut-wrenching. He’ll be like the red shirt for emotion, freaking out in order to let the audience know that the situation has become serious. Just don’t over-do it. If you have Emotional Dave freaking out about mundane things like his laundry, the audience will stop caring. Jack Black might be a good choice to play Emotional Dave.

And please don’t kill off yet another character at the beginning of the story to get the audience emotionally invested. You already killed off Kirk’s Dad and Pike, who for many of us was your best character. No more blood sacrifices. This time, try to earn the audience’s emotional investment with a compelling story and character arcs.

812. Disinvited - August 29, 2014

#811. Cygnus-X1 – August 29, 2014

While I understand and support you motive, nonetheless if Emotional Dave becomes the most popular character in Trek history, I don’t think I’ll ever forgive you. ;-)

813. Cygnus-X1 - August 29, 2014

812. Disinvited – August 29, 2014

LOL!

814. Cygnus-X1 - August 29, 2014

Oh, and another thing…

This third movie would be the perfect time to break up Spock & Uhura, by putting Spock on the path to the Kolinahr and having Uhura take an active interest in a female crew-mate. You’ll kill two stones with one bird by, as TUP mentioned, using the Spock character in a manner resembling the purpose for which he was originally intended—PLUS—satisfying the demands for a gay character in a Trek movie.

Hooking Uhura up with Carol Marcus seems like a natural move, as both of these characters have reasons by now to be sick of men: Uhura has had it with her self-absorbed, emotional basket-case boyfriend and Carol is tired of feeling like a sex object in the presence of her Captain. And Spock, tired of his girlfriend’s hen-pecking and whining—as she’s the only character more emotional than he—will be quite happy to have his mind on other pursuits for a time. It’s win/win/win/win. All of the characters win (except for horny Kirk) and, most importantly, the audience wins!

815. crazydaystrom - August 29, 2014

804. Valley Forge
“@802. crazydaystrom

Not bad. Have that seen at the beginning and one with Kirk and Carol at the end, with her mentioning leaving for Regula I to work on the Project Genesis. It would be a nice touch to set up a possible fourth film (that could, or could not, bring back Khan for his vengeance).”

Thanks VF. Yeah when it was first announced that Carol Marcus would be a part of the new Trekkings I’d assumed her character arch would inevitably lead to Regula, Genesis and, before that, David of course. I’d still like to see those stories told, except as TUP noted-

810. TUP
“…because these writers seem to have a hard time writing realistic relationships AND within the context of a military setting. I’d have no issue with it if it was more subtle but there were a couple of scenes that were cringe-worthy.”

Subtle and non-cringeworthy. Amen. No more sucking face on the transporter pads.

811. Cygnus-X1
“…please no more patent emotionalism from the Vulcan…

I couldn’t agree more Cygnus. Spock is no longer as mysterious and exotic and as a result is less interesting.

816. crazydaystrom - August 29, 2014

814. Cygnus-X1
“This third movie would be the perfect time to break up Spock & Uhura, by putting Spock on the path to the Kolinahr and having Uhura take an active interest in a female crew-mate. You’ll kill two stones with one bird by, as TUP mentioned, using the Spock character in a manner resembling the purpose for which he was originally intended—PLUS—satisfying the demands for a gay character in a Trek movie.”

Ha! THAT would be VERY interesting Cygnus! Just can’t imagine it happenning. Well actually I could only imagine it. And I think I will ;-)

Hooking Uhura up with Carol Marcus seems like a natural move…

Not sure I agree. But talk about boldly going!

817. TUP - August 29, 2014

@ Crazydaystrom – re: transporter make out session. Unbelievably bad. This is a MILITARY organization. My God. “But…but…but if we dont show Uhura LEAVING HER POST to go play kissy face with Spock before he leaves on a dangerous mission, how will we ever convey that she cares about him? PLUS, we get that super duper cool look from Kirk when he realises they are a couple.” Just awful.

In fact, almost everything was awful about Spock/Uhura. Please let someone who has been in a few relationships write those scenes because evidently, none of these writers have.

Cygnus – tremendous! I’d go with Uhura/Nurse Chapel myself. This would also give these writers the chance to have attractive women in states of undress without it being gratuitous.

I like Carol but I’d prefer to see her in a cameo where she says goodbye to Kirk. Maybe as he walks away, she subtly places her hand to her abdowmen (though the timing doesnt quite work does it?).

818. crazydaystrom - August 29, 2014

Uhura and Carol or Chapel! OH MY!!!

And some say Trek couldn’t be a billion$ franchise! Hahaha!

819. Mike Barnett - August 29, 2014

@810. TUP

I was killing time today by watching TOS on Netflix. “The Cage” shows Mr. Spock on the Enterprise under the command of Captain Pike. Spock is more human-like than the ‘mostly’ emotionless Spock that we see in the rest of the TOS episodes/movies. A couple examples: Spock is touching musical plants on Talos IV…while smiling. And he yelled ‘THE WOMEN” on the transporter pads later in the episode.

It’s not a reach to say that the Spock we see in The Cage, is similar to the Spock we see in ST09/STID. Now that ST2016 takes place during Kirk’s 5 year mission, I think Alt-Spock will be more like the Prime-Spock that we’ve seen in the TOS episodes and movies. Right @boborci?

820. Marja - August 29, 2014

775 Bob Orci,

Denzel Washington!!!

821. Keachick (Rose) - August 29, 2014

Same old, same old from the same posters. I could say more but I won’t, re Spock losing it/crying over the death of Kirk. The saddest part is that I should actually feel the need to explain even this.

Fortunately, the poll results so far (re S/U relationship) don’t agree. I can take heart. I can assume that Bob Orci is cognizant of this.

822. Marja - August 29, 2014

802 daystrom, Yes, I’ve been suggesting a “Spock and Uhura wake up together as a Red Alert goes off” scene for as long as I’ve been on the boards here.

Perhaps they exchange words in Vulcan on the Turbolift on the way to the Bridge. I would suggest the Vulcan be subtitled, though. A long look, a quick kiss, Vulcan style [if others are present] or Human, and the word k’hat’n’dlawa, “[you] who are half my heart and soul”.
————————————————————————————————–
TUP, re: transporter make out session. Unbelievably bad. This is a MILITARY organization. My God. “But…but…but if we dont show Uhura LEAVING HER POST to go play kissy face with Spock before he leaves on a dangerous mission, how will we ever convey that she cares about him?

Uhura was [per the novelization and probably the script, too] hooking up a special monitor so Enterprise could track Spock during his mission. Thus, she says, “I’ll be monitoring your frequency.”

I would be more comfortable if that scene had taken place between them in private, as I would have been with the “discussion of Spock’s death-wish” on the way to Kronos. But I do enjoy that they depict the love this couple shares.

PLUS, we get that super duper cool look from Kirk when he realises they are a couple.” Yes, it’s a comic moment. I know some people would like their Star Trek to be completely humorless, but I’m not one of them, especially with Chris Pine’s gift for comedy. Kirk was reacting not only to the kiss [and proof of the couple's intimacy], he was reacting to hearing Uhura’s first name for the first time.

Just awful. … In fact, almost everything was awful about Spock/Uhura. Please let someone who has been in a few relationships write those scenes because evidently, none of these writers have.

So you’re saying couples have never had an uncomfortable discussion in front of others? That that is not realistic? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

823. Keachick (Rose) - August 29, 2014

#822 – “Uhura was [per the novelization and probably the script, too] hooking up a special monitor so Enterprise could track Spock during his mission. Thus, she says, “I’ll be monitoring your frequency.”’

Now that seems reasonable. So Uhura was doing her job as well as giving her man a goodbye kiss. I am assuming here that she had already hooked up the same special monitor to Kirk earlier?

I tend to think that Kirk already knew Uhura’s first name (Nyota), but he wanted to hear either Spock or Uhura or both actually say the name out loud to him…that was the ‘game’ the three had going on. It was started by Uhura when she and Kirk first met in the bar, which Nyota Uhura told Spock about…
(After all, Kirk was going out with Uhura’s roommate, Gaila. Gaila would have known Uhura as Nyota and Kirk only needed to ask…)

824. crazydaystrom - August 29, 2014

822. Marja
“802 daystrom, Yes, I’ve been suggesting a “Spock and Uhura wake up together as a Red Alert goes off” scene for as long as I’ve been on the boards here.”

Yes I knew someone had, just couldn’t remember who :-)
My suggestion is it’s something other than their sleep that’s interrupted. As I said I’d like something “intimate, passionate and alien” implied. That, as opposed to a public and unprofessional makeout session, would be more interesting and appropriate I feel. Much more.

When the Spock/Uhura relationship was first shown, or rather, when I first heard the rumor of it, my first reaction was ???…NO!!!! But I pretty quickly (after the shock had worn off) thought better of it and decided it might not be such a bad idea. I still feel that way but am absolutely unhappy with how the relationship has been presented sofar.

825. Marja - August 29, 2014

824 Daystrom, only thing is, the screenwriters have to gauge how alien to make such a thing … will it “speak” to the audience? Will they understand what’s going on? A kiss, waking up together, well, most folks understand that. I wonder if the mass audience would even know what a “Vulcan kiss” [the touch of index and middle finger to the partner's same fingers] meant?

826. crazydaystrom - August 29, 2014

822. Marja
“Uhura was [per the novelization and probably the script, too] hooking up a special monitor so Enterprise could track Spock during his mission.”

Ok, sure. Like Keachick said, that seems reasonable. But why oh why not show her doing that? Film is a visual medium. Alfred Hitchcock once said if you wanted to understand his characters’ motivations watch what they do, not listen to what they say. I don’t need to have everything layed out before me to understand a movie but showing Uhura hooking up a monitor would’ve been clearer storytelling and better science fiction. IMO.

823. Keachick (Rose)
“I tend to think that Kirk already knew Uhura’s first name (Nyota), but he wanted to hear either Spock or Uhura or both actually say the name out loud to him…that was the ‘game’ the three had going on. It was started by Uhura when she and Kirk first met in the bar, which Nyota Uhura told Spock about…
(After all, Kirk was going out with Uhura’s roommate, Gaila. Gaila would have known Uhura as Nyota and Kirk only needed to ask…)”

Hmm, never thought about it that way but I can go along with that.

827. crazydaystrom - August 29, 2014

825. Marja
“only thing is, the screenwriters have to gauge how alien to make such a thing … will it “speak” to the audience? Will they understand what’s going on?”

Certainly true but I would say the trick is to present it in a way that’s open to multiple interpretations, several (if not all) of which could be valid. Sort of like jokes that a younger person or child could find funny but an older person might find humorous for more or other reasons. It doesn’t take ‘genius-level’ writing skills to do this, but it does require a certain cleverness.

828. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 29, 2014

Hey. I got five words for all youz trekkies..

JOAN COLLINS AND WILLIAM SHATNER.

829. Dee - lvs moonsurface - August 29, 2014

#823. Keachick

“(After all, Kirk was going out with Uhura’s roommate, Gaila. Gaila would have known Uhura as Nyota and Kirk only needed to ask…)”

maybe … but, I doubt that Kirk talked with Gaila about anything besides the information that mattered to him in relation to the Kobayashi Maru test … after all, in the deleted scene where Kirk apologizes to Gaila it took for him to realize that the green girl with whom he spoke, it was not Gaila.

830. Commodore Adams - August 29, 2014

I wonder if the first draft has been read through and given a thumbs up or needs tweaking.

831. Disinvited - August 29, 2014

# 830. Commodore Adams – August 29, 2014

” I wonder if the first draft has been read through and given a thumbs up or needs tweaking.” — Commodore Adams

Well. I’m fairly certain a decent casting process requires resources, i.e. money, which I don’t think they go down to the Transformers’ sets and harvest from the money trees?

So Paramount must have opened their purse strings on this and it is not unreasonable to assume that they must be happy about something?

832. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 29, 2014

A Joan Collins cameo in the Nexus would have saved Generations for me. ;: 0

833. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 29, 2014

Just makin a point that a good part of Kirk for me ws his love interests.
Funny, but I don’t recall anything serious, relationship-wise, after 2 movies.

Discounting the alleged romance Pine is having with our Rose Keachick.

834. Keachick (Rose) - August 29, 2014

#829 – That scene was deleted for a reason and this is the reason why I was pleased that the STID blu-ray/DVDs did not have Special Features containing “Deleted Scenes”. It means that what you see on the final cut is what the story tells and nothing else. I am not sure what is available now though.

Gaila said to Kirk that she loved him. This leads me to think that the two had been seeing, sleeping with, doing whatever together for more than just that night. Therefore, it is possible that a comment about Gaila’s roommate might have made, even if went like – Gaila, ” Jim, Nyota won’t be back till late…”

835. Keachick (Rose) - August 29, 2014

“Funny, but I don’t recall anything serious, relationship-wise, after 2 movies.”

Who said there was?

“Discounting the alleged romance Pine is having with our Rose Keachick.” Haha…are you sure that it is “alleged”?…:)

836. Disinvited - August 29, 2014

# 832. TrekMadeMeWonder – August 29, 2014

” A Joan Collins cameo in the Nexus would have saved Generations for me. ;: 0″ — TrekMadeMeWonder

When I first saw GENERATIONS that was my thought as well, but then I couldn’t come up with a rational reason why his memories of Edith would age her in the Nexus?

837. Marja - August 29, 2014

833 TMMW, Could be something building up with Kirk and Carol Marcus. I’ll be interested to see if as many people whine about that [if it happens] as whine about Uhura and Spock.

838. Cervantes - August 30, 2014

@ # 811 and #814 – Cygnus X-1

Brilliant, I *really* want to have an ‘Emotional Dave’ character worked into the script now, if it would allow for Nu-Spock to become a somewhat less ‘emotional’ and ‘controlled’ character overall.

The only new casting for this new movie that I’d particularly want out of Bob is William Shatner, to be honest…and ideally in elderly ‘Prime’ Kirk mode…*somehow*.

But hell, since the opportunity to include him in these latest movies has been well and truly missed, maybe he’d make a good ‘Emotional Dave’ redshirt to give me a laugh at least?…

And count me in on your nuUhura/nuCarol Marcus hook-up idea in this alternative timeline too, to satisfy all those ‘meaningful relationship’ moments that some crave so much about. I mean, we could have yet another flagrant ‘underwear’ scene involving nuKirk being told to turn around by both nuCarol *and* nuUhura as he catches them in their skimpies together. Imagine his face!

Yesiree, I’m now awaiting this latest alternative timeline storyline with great interest.

839. Cervantes - August 30, 2014

That should have said …if it would allow for Nu-Spock to become a somewhat less ‘emotional’ and more ‘in-control’ character overall, before anyone takes offence. It sounds like I meant Uhura ‘controlled’ him the way I’d written it, which I didn’t, lol.

840. Harry Ballz - August 30, 2014

I heard the reason they couldn’t use Edith Keeler in Generations is because Harlan Ellison owns the rights to that character, and they didn’t want to pay the fortune he would be asking to use her.

841. Disinvited - August 30, 2014

#838. Harry Ballz – August 30, 2014

At that time, it well could have been as I believe that was before the Christmas ornament settlement which allows CBS to publish the comics, etc.

842. Disinvited - August 30, 2014

#775. boborci – August 27, 2014

Is this:

http://bostonherald.com/business/media_marketing/2014/08/tripled_california_film_tv_tax_credit_heads_to_gov_jerry_browns

too little too late? Or does this open the possibility of a STAR TREK shoot coming back home? I’m assuming the Guv’s going to sign.

843. Jemini - August 30, 2014

775. boborci – August 27, 2014

started the casting process today for other characters. any favs people wanna see in space?

—–

I’d love to see Sarek again (can I just say that I love that Spock might have a different – better – relationship with his father in this reality? I loved their scenes in the first movie! so poignant) but I know we won’t unless the story is set on new vulcan…

844. Jemini - August 30, 2014

814. Cygnus-X1 – August 29, 2014

Oh, and another thing…

This third movie would be the perfect time to break up Spock & Uhura, by putting Spock on the path to the Kolinahr

————-

so you’re saying that the movie shouldn’t have any Kirk/Spock friendship either?
because last time I checked, friendship does require the expression of some feelings and love too because friendship is no less an emotional relationship than a romantic non platonic one. Even the Spock/McCoy banter requires that Spock has feelings otherwise how can he have any of his irritated reactions?

“using the Spock character in a manner resembling the purpose for which he was originally intended”

which is…? stereotyped sidekick nerdy friend (poc) of hero who gets no life outside of that friendship because in the 60s there can only be one dude front and center?

People keep projecting here. ‘Originally’ Roddenberry had never intended Spock to be a robot or a monk, but I had been called crazy or someone who ‘twisted’ reality when I posted the direct quotes stating that even a S/U thing was his original plan that he couldn’t purse only because of the context of the 60s (where the Kirk/Uhura kiss itself, forced and all, was still controversial for the sole fact that involved an interracial couple) and because the show got canceled… so what can I say?

as for the kolinahr thing you keep mentioning, it seems to me that some people obviously don’t understood the point and the reason, in the first place, why Spock never completed that path in either reality and why HE SHOULDN’T do it because it goes against who he really is. There is a reason why Spock Prime couldn’t succeed, and he didn’t even have a romantic relationship.
the characterization of reboot Spock – putting aside the realistic differences between characters due to the different reality – is more or less quite consistent with movie era prime Spock. They simply accelerated his emotional development and explained you why in context.

anyway, pretending that Spock must choose to be only a vulcan is an old tiring topic and is like saying that he should deny his mother (which he loves) and a very important part of himself. Like asking a mixed child to choose between their black and white parent and embrace only one culture to get accepted by that group.
Not to even mention that the idea of the vulcans itself is flawed here. Even if Spock had been a 100% vulcan, he’d still have feelings because guess what? they actually have more feelings than the humans (that’s why they’re so scared of them and they control them) In reality, Spock is very much his mother’s son and his father’s son, in ways (for the latter) he most likely didn’t realize in tos because he never truly got the chance to know a different, private, side of his father. In his attempts to look more vulcan than vulcans, tos Spock did the same mistake that other humanoid races do with their stereotyped perception of the vulcans. Perhaps because as a hybrid it was easy for him to blame his human side for everything and he was indeed subjected to that stereotyped ‘all control’ facade by the other vulcans since he was a kid enough to believe that if he had feelings or flaws those must have been only human and not vulcan.

You don’t give enough credit to the vulcans (and to Spock tbh). It’s quite an interesting race precisely because deep down they aren’t truly that ‘alien’ compared to the humans. They’re contradictory and still mysterious in some regards.

845. Khan 2.0 - August 30, 2014

@775 started the casting process today for other characters. any favs people wanna see in space?

Ray Liotta would be cool as either a hero or villain. Michael Biehn? Rutger Hauer? Tim Dalton? HFord? (Starfleet head type guy cameo) Arnie? (Klingon villian) Stephen Collins? (Matt Decker), and of course shatner/stewart somehow (maybe spiner and some of the others too)

846. Cygnus-X1 - August 30, 2014

842. Jemini – August 30, 2014

Look, I’m trying to break up an annoying couple and you’re not helping.

I don’t know which TOS you watched, but the one that I watched didn’t have Spock gushing emotion to Captain Kirk unless there were unusual circumstances, like he was infected by a virus or something. Spock’s largely suppressed “irritation” was usually the extent of his emotionalism and also typical of how Vulcan characters have been portrayed under normal circumstances (i.e. not Pon Farr, etc.) in Trek since.

Bottom line: Alt Spock is annoying and the goal is to make him less annoying. Nixing his once-per-movie emotional meltdowns and his relationship with Uhurua would make him less annoying and restore dramatic purpose to the character.

847. Khan 2.0 - August 30, 2014

@775 boborci

oh and Sean Bean as several have suggested already would be epic (some Starfleet military badass)

848. Dee - lvs moonsurface - August 30, 2014

#834. Keachick

Yep, I’m not a believer in romantic Kirk, I’m really curious to see if Kirk will lose his “reputation”, in Trek 13. Convince me, Mr. Orci! :-)

849. Marja - August 30, 2014

@Bob Orci — how about just some good actors/actresses of color. I would like to see more people of color with speaking roles, not just seen in the background. I loved seeing Lt. Darwin at Navigation. More, please! African-Americans, Latinos, South Asians, Chinese … Aliens too!

And … as I said earlier … Denzel !

I’d also love to see Sarek [Ben Cross] again. What’s up on New Vulcan?

850. Marja - August 30, 2014

834 Keachick, as I recall Gaila referred to Uhura as “my roommate!” when Kirk asked why he had to get under the bed. “She’s back early!”

Even if they did love each other [I kinda hope so], when she talked with Kirk, Gaila may have spoken of Uhura by last name [as one does in the military] or as “my roomie/roommate” in much the same way we say, “my husband, wife, boyfriend, teacher” &c.

And Uhura definitely wanted to be known as “just ‘Uhura’.”

851. Jemini - August 30, 2014

846. Cygnus-X1 – August 30, 2014
842. Jemini – August 30, 2014

‘I don’t know which TOS you watched, but the one that I watched didn’t have Spock gushing emotion to Captain Kirk unless there were unusual circumstances’

I don’t know which TOS you watched, but the one that I watched didn’t have a Spock so unemotional and robotic like some of you paint him here.
If I were to list you all the times he smiles and expresses emotion without any outside influence messing up with him, the list would be endless..
He was way more emotional than what some of you make him out to be.

The point though is not just him expressing emotion but him feeling it. You can’t tell me that friendship doesn’t require him to have feelings and can’t tell me that making him the robotic stereotyped vulcan you want him to be wouldn’t inevitably affect and sacrifice his other relationships too that I’m not sure you’d want them to delete..
I don’t know what to tell you if according to your standards he’s more ‘out of character’ with his girlfriend than with Kirk. Most of the things I see people complaining about his character in the movies (his anger, the death scene, his homicidal and revengeful feelings, crying and screaming and so on) were not even related to his relationship with Uhura. They’re all interactions he has with Kirk.
Yet, people here only point fingers at his (generic) relationship with Uhura as ad honimen argument against romance (or more like, men expressing feelings for women. Because we have already established that according to some fans dudes being emotional and acting not professional for other dudes is fine and allowed)

tl dr: you can’t have the cake and eat it too

852. DaddlerTheDalek - August 30, 2014

Casting already? You are fast Bob!

853. Jemini - August 30, 2014

850. Marja – August 30, 2014 + Keachick,

Personally, I think Kirk could have found Uhura’s name if he wanted but he just wanted HER to tell him ;)
I can buy him not knowing because I get the feeling few people call her Nyota…
besides, the expression on his face (LOL) when he heard Spock saying it seemed sincere to me

If my memory isn’t wrong she’s the only one, among the crew members who interact the most with him, who had never called him ‘Jim’ either (Carol called him like that in one scene and they like knew each other since 10 minutes lol) always just ‘captain’ or ‘sir’ but they’re definitely friends now and cared a great deal for one another in stid.

854. Cygnus-X1 - August 30, 2014

851. Jemini – August 30, 2014

You can’t tell me that friendship doesn’t require him to have feelings and can’t tell me that making him the robotic stereotyped vulcan you want him to be

That “stereotype” is BASED on TOS Spock!

He was the prototypical Vulcan character! Literally!!

And he wasn’t emotional in TOS most of the time. He just wasn’t. Do you really believe that the Spock character’s wild popularity during the TOS run was attributable to him being more or less like a human character? Just go back and read the articles about it. Hell, read any article about TOS Spock. He’s always referred to as the “logical” “unemotional” or “emotionally repressed” character. That’s what he’s known for and that was essential to his dramatic purpose in TOS, particularly vis-a-vis McCoy in the troika.

Spock’s emotionalism in The Cage was an aberration in that it was a pilot episode filmed 2 years prior to the beginning of TOS and the writers (and Nimoy) didn’t have the Spock character down yet. Once TOS began, Spock was no longer smiling at flowers and so forth. Unless, as I mentioned, the circumstances were unusual—like he was under the influence of a virus, a spell of some kind, the Pon Farr, etc.

855. Khan 2.0 - August 30, 2014

@775 boborci

also be fun to see Michael Ironside sporting a Starfleet uniform (an admiral?)

856. TrekMadeMeWonder - August 30, 2014

I say, go watch “The Cloud Miners” and you will see how emotional Spock should ever be, In a relationship, or on duty,

857. Keachick (Rose) - August 30, 2014

I do not like the idea of breaking up what seems to be a good relationship, whether it be a real-world one or a fictional one. No, Cygnus and others, you will not get any help with me on this issue.

Let the Spock/Uhura relationship stand because for now, it seems to be ticking along quite nicely and there is no reason for it not to continue along in that direction.

Romantic – “fanciful; impractical; unrealistic”
This was one of the definitions given for the word.

TOS Kirk could be quite romantic at times. Unfortunately, because of how this nuKirk has been written, there has been no opportunity for this younger Kirk to reveal that side of himself, which he does have, even though it may not necessarily be what is generally expected by many people.

It is more than likely that neither Kirk nor the Caitian ladies saw anything long term coming from their liaison of which we got a quick glimpse, but certainly one of the girls did not want him to leave – I see the romance here as being defined by the above – fanciful, impractical, unrealistic, along with being mutually enjoyable. Then again, perhaps I am just an incurable romantic…yous got a problem with that?…:)

I have written this before, way back, that I thought that one or both of the Caitian women could have been present with Kirk in the bar commiserating with him when Pike walks in…That would have given some continuity and a little ‘romance/cuteness’…oops *sorry – not allowed cuteness* according to those who write, over and over… about how much is just so wrong with Bob Orci’s and co.’s efforts.

Bob Orci – let cuteness reign, I say!…along with a little Spock/Uhura rumpy pumpy with a Vulcan twist – old term, just came to me as I write…:)!

858. dmduncan - August 30, 2014

689. Basement Blogger – August 23, 2014

How did you know I got a thing for Holly Hunter?

***

Call me The Man From Shambala, where the people have strange and mystical powers. ;-)

859. dmduncan - August 30, 2014

Harry, I read your script. I could see that as a SyFy channel original. With the modest SPFX and excellent use of newsreel footage your script calls for, I could see it made, true to the story, on a low budget.

860. dmduncan - August 30, 2014

Gee Bob, there’s LOTS of people I would like to see cast in Star Trek. How about some general details of the types you are looking for?

Middle aged authority types? Male, female? Info like that. It’s hard to give useful suggestions without knowing some general parameters.

861. dmduncan - August 30, 2014

So I saw how you could do Khan as a secret ruler. Aldritch Killian from Iron Man 3 is the model.

See, everybody knows Killian. His existence isn’t secret. He’s a research scientist, people know his name, they have interactions with him, etc. But they do not know he is The Mandarin.

Now substitute “an engineer of sorts” for “research scientist,” and the democratically elected head of a unified Asia for the phony Mandarin actor, Trevor Slattery.

862. Harry Ballz - August 30, 2014

@859

dmduncan, thanks for taking the time to read my script! I appreciate it.

863. dmduncan - August 31, 2014

@862: Strong opening, strong finish. I liked how you managed to turn a bad guy into a good one. Clever use of real news footage to support your premise.

And was that an homage to Star Trek: The Cage, with the laser cannon and the illusory wall?

864. Harry Ballz - August 31, 2014

@863

dmduncan, nice catch on the laser cannon blasting away at the door. I guess it was an homage on some instinctive level.

Two questions:

Was the motivation of the antagonist, Alex, clear as you read it? I’d like to think there were layers to his intent and actions, but maybe I’m too close to it. I want to convey that Alex was desperately trying to protect his father AND, by doing so, finally gain his father’s respect.

Did you like the way history turned out the way it did BECAUSE a time-traveler came back and tried to influence a change?

865. dmduncan - August 31, 2014

864. Harry Ballz – August 31, 2014

“Was the motivation of the antagonist, Alex, clear as you read it? I’d like to think there were layers to his intent and actions, but maybe I’m too close to it. I want to convey that Alex was desperately trying to protect his father AND, by doing so, finally gain his father’s respect.”

Yes, I got that clearly. And it was easy to see things not just from Ben’s POV, but from Alex’s. It’s almost as if you grew up watching Star Trek.

“Did you like the way history turned out the way it did BECAUSE a time-traveler came back and tried to influence a change?”

Liked it. You kept me guessing there. I didn’t know how it was going to turn out when the initial attempt to “fix” things failed.

The sunglasses and not knowing how to open a bottle of coke were nice touches. I wouldn’t know what a bottle opener looked like or what it was for either.

You mention MK-ULTRA to the reader of the script (not the audience), and I suppose that if you want to do that you might work the name into the story somehow, perhaps as part of the brainwashing montages.

866. Marja - August 31, 2014

Cygnus, well, here we go again. If you watch Nimoy’s expressions throughout TOS [not including "The Cage"] you will see annoyance, amusement, puzzlement, surprise, shock, &c. Those are reflections of humanity: the ability to be irritated, amused, puzzled, surprised, and so on. TOS Spock also spoke of having to control his emotions. He has emotions and shows them, albeit subtly. TOS Spock also had the ability to communicate with his mother back on Vulcan. She says “You haven’t spoken with your father in eighteen years” in “Journey to Babel.” Emotional repression is not so healthy — at least for a Human.

Also his father, 100% Vulcan, married a 100% Human.

You will, perhaps, note that NuSpock was quite logical most of the time in STiD, even in his talks with Uhura. It was only after the possibility of a long friendship with Kirk [as told him by TOS Spock] was ripped away [not to mention all that had gone before, his planet and people destroyed, his mother dying] that he became emotional, or in your book, “crying and screaming all over the place”. [Again I restate that the "Khan scream" was out of place, but would not have been offended by a brief "Noo!"] I think your rejection of NuSpock comes out of your dislike of AbramsTrek and a view of TOS that is, perhaps, rosy in color.

Again, please remember that this Spock is 28 or 29 y/o, not [assuming that TOS Spock graduated SF Academy at 20 y/o] 38 y/o. I don’t know about you, but the difference between the way I behaved at age 28 and 38 differed considerably.

867. Keachick (Rose) - August 31, 2014

General Comment –

The same posters keep repeating the same stuff over and over, while dismissing anything new that might come along that explains aspects of STID that they clearly overlooked, choose to ignore or they do as TUP did to me.

What bothers me is that, to *ALL of us, Chris Pine (and the other actors) is a stranger. We only *know* him through the characters he plays, like Jim Kirk, and from whatever interviews he may do… It seems that it’s been OK to comment on Pine’s bare ass (a comment taken completely out of context and where he was playing James Kirk), make comments about how actors might look etc (eg, too fat, too skinny) on and off screen and say other rude and stupid things and yet when I wish the same stranger (ie Chris Pine) a happy birthday on his actual date, I have been told that I am being a silly fangirl or whatever and put down because I have wished this stranger a good birthday.

It seems that it is deemed OK by most to make fun of and denigrate actor(s)/stranger(s) but not OK to wish the same person or people many happy returns on their birthdays. Am I missing something here?

* except for Bob Orci

868. Marja - August 31, 2014

@bob orci, Viola Davis would be great as a captain or admiral. She has authority and passion.
————————————————————————————————–
856 TMMW, And an audience could speculate on whether ol’ Spock did the deed with Droxine or not. I’d guess you fall on the “not” side.

As a character in a drama, Spock is open somewhat to interpretation. Some lean toward the “human being repressed, a constant battle for the character” [which Nimoy himself said] and “a totally emotionless, logical character” which some men tend to see. [shrug]

869. Keachick (Rose) - August 31, 2014

Some posters have challenged the notion that Spock should be so emotional over the death of someone he did not know for very long. They also point out the emotion expressed in TWOK over Spock’s death had more legitimacy, because Kirk and Spock had known each other for far longer than these AU Kirk and Spock had.

My answer is – so what? I do not think that we can measure the extent of *legitimate* emotion expressed simply by gauging how long individuals may know each or how well. People can be acquainted, associated, work alongside another and yet still not necessarily know that much of a more personal nature. If that person dies, they may be upset, shed a tear and then move on. Yet, if another person dies, whom they have only just met but have developed a real bond of friendship/emotional intimacy, then it is likely that the survivor could be more than a bit bereaved. Time is only relevant to a degree.

Another factor to consider is how the injuries/deaths of complete strangers can affect rescue workers at times. Many of these people working in those fields, like fire rescue, ambulance, paramedics (many experienced and “hardened”) can often need counselling in order to come to terms with some horrific and tragic situation that they find and these dead/dying people are complete strangers to them, and yet these emergency workers can *lose it* – not necessarily at the time during the rescue/recovery, but soon afterwards.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason at all to call out Spock for his lapse into emotion or that expressed by both Scotty and Uhura, upon seeing their captain die.

I have never understood why this scene (other than the actual Khan scream perhaps?) should bother these same posters, despite reasoned explanations given, taken from real-life experience. One really has to wonder…:(

870. Cygnus-X1 - August 31, 2014

866. Marja – August 31, 2014

He has emotions and shows them, albeit subtly.

And you find that Alt Spock shows his emotions “subtly” as well?

Marja, he’s about as subtle as a Jerry Springer Show guest.

The whole point is that when TOS Spock showed emotion, it meant something that he was showing it. That’s why those “subtle” little displays of emotion were focused on, often with a bit of musical accompaniment to emphasize, say, his vexation at McCoy’s all too “human” behavior.

I think you know as well as I do that TOS Spock did not have an emotional meltdown every movie or every episode.

871. Marja - August 31, 2014

Again, TOS Spock had not experienced the loss of planet, race and family member all in one day. AND HE WAS 10 YEARS OLDER, AT LEAST. I think it’s remarkable heNuSpock’s able to maintain the control he has, for 95% of each movie.

“Emotional meltdown” is rather patronizing male language, usually used to describe a child or a “hysterical woman” — when in fact the entire movie was driven by the emotions of Human MEN, and the illogic thereunto pertaining. Make Khan into a genocidal engineer. Use him by keeping his “family” hostage. Begin a “preemptive” war against the Klingons. Take revenge on your captor, wreak havoc upon his organization, revenge, destruction, revenge &c.

You and I have argued the merits and disadvantages in the script of the movie, and in many things I agree, but Spock is not the only one “guilty” of emotions, and his emotions were brief results [anger at Khan] rather than movers [Marcus's fear, and desire for domination, Kirk's desire for revenge, Khan's desire for revenge, and the huge consequences of those]. Spock’s brief desire for revenge in the first movie ended in shame and being relieved of his command, and in the second movie, nearly resulted in two deaths, Khan’s and Kirk’s [if you count the latter, because he was already dead, but SCIENCE!].

And yes, I’m quite aware that these mens’ emotions were designed to propel the action-y plot along, investing the audience along the way.

872. Marja - August 31, 2014

Also, this Spock, who is at least a decade younger, has only been seen over four hours of screen time. TOS Spock we saw for 79 hours of TV plus 12 hours of movie time. So yeah, he had some time to evolve and started older and wiser.

Not only that but in the Meta sense he was one side of a triangle in TOS: Emotion/Humanity [McCoy], Decision/Balance/Judgement [Kirk] Reasoning/Science [Spock]. And every week we saw this clearly delineated dynamic. Nowadays, it seems to me, with advances in psychology and the knowledge of sublety and changeability of individuals in drastic situations, and the effects on them [PTSD, formerly known as "battle fatigue"], we can show deeper emotions in a scientifically-oriented character or cold logic in a doctor doing triage. To be fair, Kirk’s doubts were often portrayed in TOS.

873. Harry Ballz - August 31, 2014

@865 dmduncan

That’s a really good point about MK-ULTRA being mentioned in the dialogue.

dmduncan, I can’t thank you enough for taking time out of your busy schedule to read my screenplay. It’s mucho appreciated!

I sincerely believe the story is good enough for a feature film, but maybe HBO could produce it.

874. Cygnus-X1 - August 31, 2014

871. Marja – August 31, 2014

“Emotional meltdown” is rather patronizing male language, usually used to describe a child or a “hysterical woman”

If you have an issue with that phrase, it’s 100% on you.

It is a very appropriate phrase to describe a person who nearly strangles his commanding officer to death over a few choice words, and as you acknowledge, nearly kills the guy that is needed to save his captain (even though Khan really wasn’t needed because McCoy had 72 other Augments at his disposal).

Again, TOS Spock had not experienced the loss of planet, race and family member all in one day. AND HE WAS 10 YEARS OLDER, AT LEAST.

This is not the issue that we’ve been arguing.

Maybe Q showed up and put a spell on Alt Spock to make him hyper emotional all the time. Maybe Spock contracts a chronic strain of that virus from TOS The Naked Time that made the crew all crazy.

This particular issue that we’re discussing is not the internal logic of the movie regarding why Alt Spock is so emotional; this particular issue is that the writers chose to write the Spock character this way, to begin with.

Writing the character this way does away with his grace and dramatic purpose. He’s no longer significantly different from humans and other Trek species, and therefore, no longer functions in the role that the Spock character was originally written and intended to function in, i.e. as a philosophical counterpoint and dramatic counterweight to the emotionalism and passion exhibited by the other characters, yada yada.

875. Disinvited - September 1, 2014

# 874. Cygnus-X1 – August 31, 2014, 871. Marja – August 31, 2014

“Emotional meltdown” is rather patronizing male language, usually used to describe a child or a “hysterical woman” — Marja

I’m not sure about the language, but I don’t think either of you have fingered why, for me, the scene signaled Spock was having an “emotional meltdown” in confronting Khan with his fists of fury.

We have established in the course of two films that Spock and Uhura share this powerful emotional bond: they are definitely in a relationship and are to be thought of as a couple. However, when Uhura tells him to stop wailing on Khan, he’s having nothing of it. In fact, I was half-expecting her to have to stun him as well and was anticipating the sickbay stun recovery bed scene as a crucial fork in their relationship (Would Spock thank her for stunning him or would they part realizing there’s a wall they both didn’t know was there between them that they just can’t hurdle?), instead of his responding to her “explaining” further.

My point is why did Uhura have to explain anything to Spock to get him to stop? Do any of us actually believe that if it had been Sarek wailing on Khan and Amanda tells him “Husband, STOP!” that she’d have to explain further that they needed Khan to save Spock to get him to cease?

Granted STID does establish that for S&U there’s trouble in paradise, and it seemed that in that fight scene the writers were building on an opportunity to have their relationship grow, but one of them pesky scribes decided to just take out a hat pin and pop it, and that was all there was to that.

876. Marja - September 1, 2014

Cygnus,

Spock is not “hyper emotional all the time” during the movie. If you can bring yourself to watch it again, you will see that he only becomes emotional at Kirk’s death and when he’s chasing and beating on Khan. The rest of the Spock “emotion” is within Nimoy parameters.

Disinvited,

I think the writers were just spelling out for those who had checked their iPhones during some moment of McCoy’s explanation or the beamdown nonsense that “we need Khan alive” so they could use his blood. Because in the first movie, all it took to stop Spock whalin’ on Kirk was Sarek’s, “Spock!”

I found that part a violation of character, when Spock kept going at Khan. First he was trying to take him down to take him prisoner, then defending his own life, then … whew. Well, Khan had kicked Spock’s phaser over the edge, so I guess I can accept the “extra help from a garbage scow” part. But once Uhura beamed down to stun Khan, that should have been the end of it — unless Khan woke up again.

877. Cygnus-X1 - September 1, 2014

876. Marja – September 1, 2014

Spock is not “hyper emotional all the time” during the movie.

Yes, yes, I know.

I was just speaking generally, illustrating the point regarding Q and/or some other arbitrary cause—it could be anything—that the writers might choose in order to get the character how they wanted him to be. In the case of ST09 and STID, it’s “more emotional.” Because that’s what the global focus group research indicates that the foreign market wants—“more emotion” and “less Trek,” less of that “unemotional, logical” character that Star Trek is known for.

878. Jemini - September 1, 2014

875. Disinvited – September 1, 2014

“My point is why did Uhura have to explain anything to Spock to get him to stop? Do any of us actually believe that if it had been Sarek wailing on Khan and Amanda tells him “Husband, STOP!” that she’d have to explain further that they needed Khan to save Spock to get him to cease?”

except, in the S/U scene it was the first time Spock was told that they needed Khan alive and why.

further, in their previous scene Uhura had actually been the one who gave him ‘the permission’ to go after Khan and possibly kill him for what he had done. Uhura had wanted to avenge their friend (and all the people that died for khan’s fault) too and if she doesn’t want to kill Khan anymore in the end when she stops Spock is only because she knows in that moment that he’s the only chance to save their friend. Something that Spock doesn’t know yet, and she tells him.

I’m not sure we can compare Spock and Sarek in this instance. The problem in this kind of reasoning is the fact that we clearly don’t have any example of Sarek in the same situation and how he’d react to Amanda. You don’t know. And even if we did, we’d still be talking about two different people, after all, whose individuality (not matter if they share genes and might share similarities) should be taken into consideration.
I could make a different example here: perhaps Spock is more affectionate or expressive with Uhura than Sarek was with Amanda (at least he doesn’t seem to be scared to kiss her in public, while Amanda could only get a vulcan kiss) but this doesn’t mean that the bond between Sarek and Amanda was less profound than the one between S/U or that Sarek loved his wife less.

anyway, I think it’s in their history (the vulcans) that their violent powerful feelings almost destroyed their race pre-Surak. They feel deeply than humans, otherwise why you think they are phobic about the feelings and they seek control so much?
So, I don’t think that the idea of a vulcan getting so out of control in their anger that he won’t even listen to the ones he loves, is so far fetched…
The interesting thing is that some people always assume that if Spock is being too emotional that should be blamed on his human side only… but I don’t think it’s that simple because maybe sometimes what we are seeing might be his vulcan side that he can’t control because his control in that moment is entirely human.

In tos we don’t see much of that, true. But like others said, he was older there and he never lost his planet (and didn’t have a romantic relationship with uhura, for that matter)
Since he wasn’t the main character (only kirk was, and even kirk was still influenced by the limits of the time), most of him was filtered through what the main character and those close to him perceived of him.

I think the same would happen with every character if they were upgraded from supporting to protagonist status. You’d have to necessarily see a difference.
It’s a bit like for some iconic villains, sometimes you have this villain who is a one dimensional character when he’s playing the antagonist of the main hero.. and a writer decides to make him the protagonist too and unfolds his own story.. and suddenly he has these layers you had no idea in other depictions of him that he could have but at the same time it isn’t really a contradiction of what came before because what came before had simply never touched that aspect of the character.

879. Keachick (Rose) - September 1, 2014

Spock was not “hyper emotional” and I do not see the need to write such hyperbolic nonsense. None of the main characters were overly emotional all the time. They had their moments, just as people do now. I think Spock just “lost it” (I do wonder how many of the other surviving 10,000 Vulcans have not been “losing it” as well, on many occasions perhaps…)

What I find interesting, when examining both movies, is that it is the human female, Nyota Uhura, who has been the (lone) voice of reason. We see this in the bar scene in the first film, where she is yelling to the cadet to stop punching Kirk and being ignored, even though these cadets were supposedly saying that they were looking our for her – yeah, right…:(

Sorry – more to come. Gotta go…

880. dmduncan - September 1, 2014

Spock is hyper emotional now. Where before he controlled a disconnect switch between how he may have felt and how he behaved, now he just lets it all hang out.

Not an improvement on the original.

And what makes it worse is that in STiD they try to make it seem like he’s this logical character, but it isn’t meshing with how he acts. the characterization is off. It took Leonard Nimoy some time to settle in to how to play the part, and that was ignored in favor of a reinvention where there really isn’t a good explanation for why he goes from Mr. Logical to the Incredibnle Spulk so easily. Kirk’s death just doesn’t cover it.

And that’s telling because it suggests that the Spock that Nimoy made wasn’t good enough. And if you want Spock to be the center of the movie, getting the girl, proving he’s the better man to be in charge of the Enterprise, then you do have to ignore Nimoy’s contribution, because Spocks’ place in TOS was to the side, not the center.

You can only put Spock in the center by weakening Kirk, and that is what finally settled in me as unacceptable in STiD, and what will make or break the next movie for me.

So I hope that doesn’t happen. I did not like Kirk much at all in STiD, and that is one big thing I go to a Star Trek movie to do

881. dmduncan - September 1, 2014

873. Harry Ballz – August 31, 2014

Netflix and Amazon are now also producing, rather than just aggregating, content. That may be a new marker for screenplays you can take a shot at.

882. Disinvited - September 1, 2014

#878. Jemini – September 1, 2014 , 879. Keachick (Rose) – September 1, 2014

“further, in their previous scene Uhura had actually been the one who gave him ‘the permission’ to go…” — Jemini

And that is precisely my problem with the scene: Spock initiates the attack on her say so, fine, but he won’t acknowledge her saying to stop. Something’s wrong with their relationship in that picture. Marja says she thinks it is because the writers decided that it was more important for them to use her character as an ersatz greek chorus than keep the couple’s interactions in mind in that scene. I think she may be right that that explains the “real” world reason why the scene seems oddly constructed to me, but nevertheless what the “real” reason was, as fans we have to try to make sense of what unfolds on the screen.

Rose, the point to keep in mind is Spock has already “lost it” for his dead planet when he was wailing on Kirk in the first movie and yet ONE word, just one word from Sarek, i.e. his son’s name, and he stops. If the writers really were trying to cash that “emotionally compromised” check, yet again, in that scene in STID then, for me, it was a case of their going to the bank once to often with that one.

Maybe this is just a case of another real world scene in my life being reflected on the screen and it fires up things for me, the individual, that for others just don’t register: one of my grandfathers was a mean drunk and by that I mean that when he was on the sauce he was a wife beating and child beating monster, not in anyway limited so as his lubricated violence was catholic. So when I see the more powerful member of a couple exhibiting violent acts and unwilling to cease when the other says so my “OH OH!” alarm just goes off for that couple.

Now, I certainly think it would be a mistake for the Spock character to be brought down the Ant Man mate beating road, but it would be nice as a scene of the couple’s relationship growing if he asked her to undergo some shared Vulcan ritual with him to address this potential problem for their relationship and bind them stronger even if he tries to paint it as he is only doing the logical thing for her protection.

883. Keachick (Rose) - September 1, 2014

Bear in mind though that Sarek is Spock’s father, a male he has known all his life and has always been the “father/authority” figure in Spock’s life.

The point is, following on from my previous post, is that Uhura seems to be the voice of reason and emotional stability, whether it be for Kirk, Spock or other. While Kirk was trying to beat the crap out of Harrison/Khan, it was Uhura calling for him to stop; it was Uhura calling for the cadets to stop; it was Uhura calling for Spock to stop. In fact, the only person who listened to Uhura in this respect was Kirk. Kirk is also the one who has gained himself the dubious reputation of being the “womanizer”…hmmm?

Spock was still emotionally compromised in STID. However, this does not mean that he is an emotional basket-case all the time. Spock could maintain his balance well most of the time, very well in fact, but he was more easily triggered into giving way to emotional outbursts than would have normally been the case, had not events like seeing his mother die, having his entire world implode and then watching someone he had come to realize could be a good friend to him, die before his eyes. Spock’s frustration reached boiling point because that he was absolutely powerless to save Kirk at this stage (he did not know about the tribble experiment).

Khan unfortunately became Spock’s focus on whom he poured out all his anger and pain over everything. Khan did not help matters at all because he was one of the main causes and he was exerting physical and emotional pain upon Spock. Spock’s primeval Vulcan makeup came to the fore, which is why Khan was screaming when Spock did the mind-meld. Khan was still very strong though so Spock had to keep on fighting for his life. He had gone beyond listening to anyone and had to have a damned good reason why he should not kill Khan, or at least, keep punching and punching, on and on. Uhura gave him the reason to stop.

“If the writers really were trying to cash that “emotionally compromised” check, yet again, in that scene in STID then, for me, it was a case of their going to the bank once to often with that one.”

Have none of you any idea about genuine grief? Sometimes it can be a case of going to the bank again and again, until the rawness of grief etc is finally spent and/or other changes are made.

884. dmduncan - September 1, 2014

marker = market

885. Marja - September 1, 2014

883 Rose,
“If the writers really were trying to cash that “emotionally compromised” check, yet again, in that scene in STID then, for me, it was a case of their going to the bank once to often with that one.”

Have none of you any idea about genuine grief? Sometimes it can be a case of going to the bank again and again, until the rawness of grief etc is finally spent and/or other changes are made.

Thank you for saying this. Those of us who’ve had grief or traumatic experiences can re-live them for years after, with the accompanying emotion. I think this is all they are showing with Spock. Yes, the Meta reason may be those fans across the world, but again, Spock was his usual logical self for 90% of the movie. Even in the face of his own death in the volcano.

886. Cygnus-X1 - September 2, 2014

885. Marja – September 1, 2014

Spock was his usual logical self for 90% of the movie. Even in the face of his own death in the volcano.

But in the volcano scene, he chooses to die for the sake of the same Prime Directive that he’s already violated, according to Prime Universe canon and the implied logic of the movie (in the absence of no other explanation for what the “Prime Directive” is). He violates the PD by choosing to interfere with the natural evolution of a primitive culture, and then decides to let himself die rather than let that same culture see a UFO. How is that kind of willingness to die logical? To me it comes across like drama queen with a Martyr Complex.

887. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 2, 2014

Spock’s “Vulcan” suit while impressive, was lacking, because it needed Gravity Boots.

888. TUP - September 2, 2014

Marja – you misunderstand. Ofcourse couples have had uncomfortable conversations in front of others. Sitting in a lounge off-duty? Sure. During a mission? Awful. And Im sure it was written that way to combine the personal conversation with a mission so as to keep the movie moving along. It was the wrong decision.

The writers probably thought it didnt matter. If this was Transformers, the audience likely wouldnt stop drooling long enough to notice (I kid) but this is Star Trek. Realism is more important. This isnt Science Fantasy, its Science Fiction.

I agree with whomever said (was it you Marja) that showing relationship moments between them in private would be fine. It might even be good. That way Spock doesnt have to act all emotional and wishy washy while on duty.

889. TUP - September 2, 2014

@823 Keachick (ofcourse). So its okay for one officer to kiss her superior romatically while on duty in front of others? It was a terribly mis-placed scene. And it wasnt needed.

890. TUP - September 2, 2014

Keachick you fail to grasp even the simplest concepts yet again. My issue with Spock weeping over Kirk in STID was not so much that it rang hollow because they were not depicted as that close, it simply wasnt in keeping with the character. Additionally, the emotion wasnt poignant because this Spock is an emotional mess throughout both films. If he was the Spock we know (not including The Cage), then his break down at the end of STID would have been shocking and meaningful.

Unfortunately it *still* would have been over the top. These writers like to drop anvil’s. I didnt like Spock’s “f you” tone in 09 when he rejected the science academy because I didnt think it was in keeping with the character but I accept it for the purposes of story-telling. But Spock breaking down was too much. Imagine that scene (as bad as it is over-all) with Spock *fighting* back tears, clentching his jaw, his emotional evident in his eye…his grief turning to rage the entire time his face remaining virtually expressionless. He orders the transporter officer to “beam me down” but Uhura or someone tries to interject and he snaps the order again “beam me down!”, barely controlling the rage.

His intense chase, his violent fight, it all means more if the emotion is bubbling just beneath the surface, not over-flowing over it.

Ill second the motion for more Sarek. He was under-serviced somewhat.

They screwed up his relationship with Spock in 09 and missed a great “emotional” scene later on. When Spock gets into the fight with the bullies, Sarek should not have given Spock a pep talk about choosing his own path. He should have told him in no uncertain terms that he must choose the Vulcan way if he is to be accepted. Basically, he needed to endorse the bullies’ actions. That would have validated the split between father and son, that Spock, hurt and in need of his fathers’ love, felt betrayed by it.

Years later when Sarek is the only one who snaps Spock out of his (stupid) attack on Kirk and then has the heart to heart with him, it would have meant a lot more.

891. loghaD - September 2, 2014

@775. boborci – August 27, 2014

“any favs people wanna see in space?”

A long shot, I guess, but:

Depending on how “The Red Shirt Diaries” develops, it might be really fun to have the main actress (Ashley Victoria Robinson) be in the film as a redshirt extra.
A sort of in-joke, suggesting that Ensign Williams might really have been on the Enterprise all along.

http://www.theredshirtdiaries.com/

892. TUP - September 2, 2014

@879 you make some good points even if unintentionally.

Spock suffers the loss of his entire home planet and the vast majority of his family including his beloved mother – and the best we get is Spock Prime *telling* us that Spock is emotionally compromised. It takes significant goading from Kirk to get a reaction from Spock. And yet Kirk “dying” in the course of his duties (something Spock would have previously been exposed to) gets this massive out-pouring of emotion? HOLLOW.

if the point was to show us how deeply Spock was impacted by Kirk’s death, it was just too far out of reasonable expectations. I said before and I will say it again, these writers chose the plot device of MWI to supposedly free themselves of canon yet the STID reactor scene ONLY WORKS when future canon is factored in.

As the viewer, we are being emotionally prodded because of WoK AND Spock’s reaction is supposed to be our reaction when considering the depth and enormity of the Kirk/Spock friendship which only matters when you consider their future. As a viewer, we should be emotional about that special, generational friendship ceasing before it really began. but to use Spock as the emotional stand-in for the audience was not acceptable because it simply didnt make any sense.

That brings us back to the question Bob Orci has thus far refused to answer: was it ever considered for Pike to be in Kirk’s place in the STID reactor scene?

As for Uhura as the voice of reason? Meh. The bar fight was a bad scene anyway. It was very juvenile. If these were teenage boys at the school dance, then okay, maybe. But Starfleet cadets some with SECURITY training, others going into the Officer Corp? Come on. “duuuhhhh is he bothering you duuuhhh” *drool*. Give me a break.

Uhura wasnt the voice of reason when she risked hers and Sulu’s lives over the volcano. She wasnt the voice of reason when she initiated an emotional personal conversation in the midst of a serious, dangerous mission. She was stereotypical emotional woman who has to confront her man about his feelings at an inappropriate time because she’s a girl. Im surprised there was no witty line about it being that time of the month for her. Maybe that line was cut.

I’ve never been of the belief that only a woman can write a strong woman. But there are plenty of examples of men who cant write strong female roles. These guys cant. I bet they were all on-set the day Alice Eve filmed her underwear scene.

893. TUP - September 2, 2014

Also, while you might want to use Uhura being the one to call for the physical violence to stop on two occasions as evidence that she’s the voice of reason, one could also sumise that she’s a weak woman who cant stand violence and is too weak to do anything about it other than bat her eyes and say “come on boys, enough is enough”. Im not sure which side I come down on (while actually I am) but it says one of two things about the writers.

As others pointed out, *this* Spock is simply not the same Spock played by Nimoy. Why the change was made is anyones guess unless Bob wants to chime in. Was it deliberate? Is it simply a lack of knowledge of the character?

Personally, I think the writers have an affinity for Spock moreso than Kirk. Spock as the tool by which we judge and thus comment on and understand humanity is clearly very attractive to writers. But Star Trek doesnt work without Captain Kirk. It can work without Spock. it can work without Bones. Maybe not as well. But Kirk is THE central character.

But in these two modern films, that has changed. Spock is the action hero, the strong silent type, the emotional & vulnerable boy trapped in a man’s body. he is every sterotypical man. They weakened the character to make it easy to tell their story. And, I think, because they dont understand Kirk. If they did, they’d see he is actually far more complicated and thus interesting than Spock. Spock is actually pretty simple as a character. Kirk isn’t.

This is evident in how they break down the Kirk character. Arrogant womanizer. Brash egotist. Thumbs his nose at authority. A so-called genius only because they tell us he is but never show it. They dont get the character. maybe they dont like William Shatner and are taking it on under-serving the character, who knows. But its pretty sad.

894. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

TUP – You clearly have little respect for the female nature. And so what if it did happen to be “that time of the month” also? I could write more here, but I won’t. It would take too long and frankly I doubt you have the insight/intellect to understand anyway. You may read this as a slight, but unfortunately it is simply a reality. You can take small comfort in the knowledge that I do not think you are the only one here who appears to be a little lacking in some areas.

“She wasnt the voice of reason when she initiated an emotional *PERSONAL conversation in the midst of a serious, dangerous mission.”

Except that it wasn’t just personal. Kirk quickly realized that. He did say, “Do you need to do this right now?” or something to that effect, then on quick reflection, noted that Uhura was right. I would argue that this conversation had on the shuttle on the way to Kronos was an appropriate place as any other, given Spock’s refusal to speak of it anywhere else. They were heading into danger again and both Kirk and Uhura needed to know where Spock stood. It came off as quite organic. This was NOT just a personal thing between Spock and Uhura and Kirk quickly realized this.

As for bar fights and the reasons for them – they usually occur among ADULT males and I suspect that they come about due to slights made against another, whether it be very personal or about race, sex and/or politics, just like what happened in that scene from the first movie.

#889 – As for PDA, so what? There is such old fashioned thinking going on here and I doubt will mean anything to those going into space and facing whatever… These objections remind me of a time when it was thought that athletes having sex the night before a big game or competition would impair their performance. This has been proven to be one big load of bollocks and, in fact, it seems that, at times, the reverse can be the case.

895. TUP - September 2, 2014

Keachick…hahaha I love that my remarks went over your head. I wasnt saying “gee is it her time of the month”, I was saying I was surprised the writers didnt include a line like that due to the stereotypical male-oriented way they were writing the female character.

Kirk didnt acknowledge that the PERSONAL conversation was relevent. He didnt want to deal with uhura’s BS and cowed to ger aggresiveness. Again, stereotypical of male writers. That scene also showed how little Uhura had come to respect Kirk.

As for bar fights, again you miss the point. I managed a bar for many years so I have seen more fights than I can count, fights over more stupid things than I care to remember. But in almost every instance it was immaturity that escalated the situations. Im just surprised that the writers chose to portray members of Starfleet in such an immature way. Im not saying they should never have someone popping off but it was a pretty lousy reason. It was, again, stereotypical of Cupcake to immediately want to intimidate someone who was flirting with uhura. it underminded uhura as a strong woman and reduced her to being perceived as cupcake’s property or a weak little girl in need of protecting from a guy who was doing nothing but talking to her.

It was just a weak cause for the fight. The fight served its purpose but there were better reasons to get there. In fact, off the top of my head, having Kirk insult the ship (after perhaps insulting command first) to harken back to Scotty’s fight with the Klingons in an episode of TOS would have been more effective. It was just too childish.

Also, your example about athletes is wholly irrelevent. Terrible comparison. If someone here is actively in the military and can tell me that its perfectly okay for an officer to have a publicly known romantic relationship with a subordinate officer and that subordinate is perfectly okay to walk up and kiss her superior officer on the lips as he is leaving on a mission while both are on duty in front of other superiors and subordinates, then I will stand corrected. But that scene came across as forced.

I see a trend – no subtly with these writers. Anvils, anvils everywhere.

896. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

Wow, TUP, I do have to wonder if you really are trolling or playing devil’s advocate.

Why should anyone “stand violence”? What does that mean? Lt Uhura can “stand violence” as well as anyone and has proven that she is prepared to fight, do what needs to be done, alongside any man. The fact that she questions the need for gratuitous violence and calls for same to stop is what makes her the voice of reason.

To dmduncan’s comments: This is not a matter of who is better, stronger etc. Sometimes Spock was the “centre” and other times Kirk was. To write these characters from a win/lose perspective is silly and wrong. I do not think that the writers have done this. It is more about what you choose to see…

Kirk, as captain, has greater power than anyone else on the ship, but also various duties, responsibilities. One of his areas of power and duty is in that of delegation. We saw him delegate, as was his prerogative – first, when he put Sulu in temporary command while he headed to Kronos, and then Spock later on. This did not make Spock or Sulu suddenly stronger and him weaker, nor vice versa. They were simply fulfilling delegated responsibilities aboard the Enterprise, as per the captain’s orders.

Spock, as first officer, has to be able to take command of the ship at any time in the absence of the captain or per his captain’s orders. That is one of his duties as first officer. He fulfilled his duty as first officer in this respect.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Kirk was simply making use of Spock’s strength/ability according to the demands of a particular situation, ie have Spock be (acting) captain. Kirk was also using his own strength – intuition, physical/mental capabilities, according to the same demands of the same situation. This does not make either Spock or Kirk any “weaker” or any “stronger” than the other. These people (try to) operate as a co-ordinated team.

Another aspect I realize is that it was Kirk who was prepared to listen to Uhura (unlike Spock) when on the shuttle. Later, Kirk responded to her calls to stop hitting H/K. This is one so-called “womanizer captain *hornypants” that many women could feel a great deal of attraction towards – hey, Jim Kirk actually LISTENS as well!

897. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

No, it did not go over my head. Yes, as you say, immaturity is usually the cause of most bar brawls and I said that much of it happens among ADULT males. You did not correct me on that. So, in fact, what the writers depicted in that scene is in line with what can and does happen today – ie that bar fights are instigated by adult males upon others, yet this is what you wrote –

#892 TUP – ” It was very juvenile. If these were teenage boys at the school dance, then okay, maybe.”
The SF cadets were not teenage boys.

The scene with Cupcake was about these males’ insinuation that Uhura needed protection, which they failed to do anyway. The scene did not make Uhura (look) weak at all. She was as strong as she was when she entered the bar, ordered the drinks and had a young Kirk flirt with her. It was more a case of “Oh god, so men can still be jerks in the 23rd century, and still ignoring the voice of reason”. Women, generally speaking, have always had to be *strong* and in ways that men could not imagine or cope.

The only anvil I see/hear here is the one you are banging and my head does hurt so…

898. dmduncan - September 2, 2014

883. Keachick (Rose) – September 1, 2014

Have none of you any idea about genuine grief?

***

Now what do YOU think?

899. dmduncan - September 2, 2014

And the fact that you guys are making these PTSD arguments for Spock sorta proves how human — how THE SAME AS US — he has become.

That isn’t the character that Nimoy made famous.

900. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

TUP does not seem to understand that these stories take place in the 23rd century in an alternate universe to the stories told in the TV and movie TOS series.

Star Fleet is not strictly military, so the strict rules of conduct do not need to apply. Besides, rules of conduct and other change in organizations over time anyway.

No, my comparison made about athletes is not irrelevant. It is on point. It is about how attitudes can change (along with rules) because of what is discovered about human behaviour, psychology, physiology, sexuality etc. My impression is that in competitive sports, the training could be extremely rigorous and military in style. You were not just playing another team; you were playing against an adversary which needed to be “slayed”, “annihilated”, “vanquished” – I can’t remember the various terminologies used, however it must have felt as these sportsmen were preparing for a military operation almost and that losing was not/could not be an option etc… In order to keep player discipline and focus, it was considered that any sexual liaison before a battle…oops before a game, could undermine the players’ strength, resolve and focus. This has been found to be incorrect.

If one applies the same observation to a Starfleet of the future, then some PDA among crew (not sexual – kissing is not necessarily sexual) could be deemed as OK, normal, even helpful, boosting morale. This does not mean that all crew needs to do PDA. Some might just want to get on with their duties without any further ado and forego the rest. What it does allow for is individuals being and doing what they feel OK about, before/as they go about their duties as a member of a landing party, for instance.

Starfleet is not a “male only” domain, although I seriously suspect that there are those males here who think it should be and resent any notions of what might be deemed as “feminine encroachment”. Well, what can I say? Well, woman is here – she has done, is doing and will do!

901. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

#899 – Actually I think that it is nuSpock’s human half that is maintaining his balance and capacity to think, reason and get what he needs to get done. It is his Vulcan side that is out of control, eg the mind-meld Spock did on Khan which had Khan screaming – this indicates to me that Spock (because of everything that had happened) snapped and reverted to original Vulcan behaviour which almost destroyed their race.

Vulcans, we have been told from Star Trek canon, have more powerful emotions than humans and it were these powerful negative emotions which almost brought about the destruction of the Vulcan race, until Surak came along and brought with him techniques, one of which is the Kolinahr, that allowed Vulcans to be able to suppress most, if not all, of these overwhelmingly powerful emotions. These successful techniques were passed down from generation to generation and are also part of (both) Spock’s eduction, even though he also possesses a human side.

#898 – Is this a trick question?

Grief can come in many forms and it is not always about losing someone to death. It is an inescapable sadness associated with loss due to illness, death, major changes in life like divorce, betrayal. There is often anger alongside the sadness depending on the what, why and how’s. One can feel all of these emotions at the same time. Sometimes there can be denial, as in you just carry on as normal as if nothing has happened, sometimes there is simply numbness etc.

My father died on 31 March 1991, yet I dreamed that he is still alive the other night and woke up perplexed. He was sick for a long time – congestive heart failure. He went through stages, but finally his heart gave out. I remember crying uncontrollably over a few nights several weeks before he actually died because I could feel the end coming and there was nothing anyone could do. I also felt angry because of what he had said to me which upset me so deeply and can weigh on me even now if I am not careful. My father died not understanding nor being able to apologize. I was so aggrieved at seeing him slowing deteriorate – he was someone who had a great sense of humour, who would whistle Lehar or Gershwin in the shower. I don’t hear that laugh or whistle anymore…

I am crying now. As I said, is that a trick question?

902. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

I have not failed to grasp anything, TUP. There goes that anvil again.

Young Nimoy/Spock did NOT experience what the young Quinto/Spock had. That is the simplest concept that you have failed to grasp.

Nimoy/Spock’s vulcan world was safe; both his parents were alive and well, and when his mother did die, it was from old age. What bit are you not grasping? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, so goes the old expression.

903. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

My father died on 31 May 1991. I am not sure why I wrote March but I think that the child I was due to have should have been born on 16 March (ETD), but that did not happen, due to a blighted ovum.

There is another little piece of grief – finding out at 10 weeks of pregnancy that there is no baby and having to have the pregnancy terminated (the other meaning of termination). All that nausea for nothing. I know it is not nearly as bad as having a full on miscarriage – ask my aunt about that grief, or a still birth (ask also my aunt).

People cope; they get on with it and they maintain their balance, but still the memory, the grief can well up.

Just try to imagine what it is like for someone like Spock, having to deal with so much loss. NuSpock is not crying and wailing all over the place all the time. Most of the time he is as rational, competent and dignified as TOS’s Nimoy/Spock was. Yes, one does sense a certain anger, rage in nuSpock but there is a reason for that, one that TOS’s Nimoy/Spock did not have.

904. TUP - September 2, 2014

Holy crap Rose. You are one stubborn SOB. What a miserable person you must be in life. Yes I guess your view is the only correct one. *rolls eyes* Go back to drooling over your Chris Pine nude pictorial pop-up book. The adults here will continue to discuss the film.

905. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

TUP – “Kirk didnt acknowledge that the PERSONAL conversation was relevent. He didnt want to deal with uhura’s BS and cowed to ger aggresiveness. Again, stereotypical of male writers. That scene also showed how little Uhura had come to respect Kirk.”

What? There goes the anvil again.
Yes, Kirk did actually, by agreeing with Uhura when she stated her observations as per Spock’s behaviour. Uhura was respectful to Kirk, acknowledging his query and asking with a please and captain to just give her a moment. Uhura was not being rude or aggressive. In fact, it was Uhura’s gaining permission from Kirk to say what she wanted is what forced Spock to explain his feelings and actions to both Kirk and Uhura and even to himself perhaps. Remember that earlier we saw how both Uhura and Kirk expressed frustration about some of Spock’s attitude/behaviour.

Perhaps Kirk could have agreed with Uhura’s observations but also said, “This is not time or place” but he didn’t, because, at that point, there was no need to shut down the conversation.

Kirk and Uhura have come to respect each other a lot since the first movie.

906. Keachick (Rose) - September 2, 2014

I was giving my perspective which does not concur with yours. I have explained my reasons in a fair amount of detail, relating everything back to what was told in the two Star Trek movies.

However, all you manage to do is swear, patronize and insult me and actor Chris Pine with your own childish, frat-boy illusions/fantasies of pop-up book of a nude Pine.

Now, TUP, I suggest you go do some growing up and come back when you have gained some emotional and intellectual maturity. You can also take your sexist remarks elsewhere as well.

I am not a SOB. I am female.

907. Marja - September 2, 2014

893 TUP, Spock is actually pretty simple as a character. Kirk isn’t.

I agree with you on Kirk, but IMO you couldn’t be farther off the mark than you are with Spock in this statement. In fact that is the problem I see stated again and again. Some people think Spock is a simple character. He is not.

Glad Nimoy doesn’t read this!

908. Marja - September 2, 2014

886 Cygnus But in the volcano scene, he chooses to die for the sake of the same Prime Directive that he’s already violated,

As he says later to Pike, “Vulcans embrace technicality”, so I imagine that he thought he could save the race, sight unseen, until the shuttle got FUBAR’d. Saving a race sight unseen vice interfering with their culture [appearing as gods, destroying their computers, &c. -- which, I must remind you, TOS Kirk did again and again] may have struck Spock as a bargain more acceptable than watching yet another planet be destroyed.
———————————————————————————————————-
888 Yup, TUP, it was me. Meta: set up a private S/U scene, design the scenery, lighting, &c &c or, just shoot the scene in the ship on the way to Kronos to show the passage of time. Dramatic: not so great, but then, as Keachick points out, Kirk might just be curious to know if Spock has a death wish.

I want to address further of your comments later, b/c it’s bedtime for Bonza.

909. Keachick (Rose) - September 3, 2014

Marja – What is Meta?

910. Keachick (Rose) - September 3, 2014

That was the point of why Uhura made the comment “Good thing you don’t care about dying”. As she said, she had tried to discuss things with Spock but she was getting nowhere. I think the fact that Kirk agreed that she did have a point was when Spock realized that it wasn’t just Uhura being “all emotional because she was a human female” (rather dismissive/sexist thinking) but a matter to do with being human (male and female).

I am not sure that Kirk might just be “curious” but rather “concerned”. When someone has a death wish, then his focus and concern might not be as it needs to be when dealing with a dangerous situation involving others.

911. Cygnus-X1 - September 3, 2014

907. Marja – September 2, 2014

I understand what his rationale in the story was.

And I would restate the same criticism about it.

912. Disinvited - September 3, 2014

I think this notion that somehow the writers get to cash the “emotionally compromised” check more times for NuSpock because Ambassador Spock didn’t have the same connections is an interesting one, save for the fact that in the first movie the writers used Ambassador Spock to introduce this whole notion including his line “I am emotionally compromised.”

And it introduces the viewer to the notion that the whole 2009 movie’s raison d’être is that Ambassador Spock was first emotionally compromised by the deaths of his Romulan brothers and sisters (Recall that he got to know them far better than the earlier abstract concept of merely distant relations, later, in his character’s appearance in TNG.) that he failed to prevent in their obliteration by the supernova. And, while in that state, took fateful actions that caused the nuverse to be.

So Ambassador Spock is in no way experiencing less emotional compromization than nuSpock and logically, in my view, has reasons to be experiencing even more.

913. Jemini - September 3, 2014

899. dmduncan – September 2, 2014

And the fact that you guys are making these PTSD arguments for Spock sorta proves how human — how THE SAME AS US — he has become.

That isn’t the character that Nimoy made famous.

_______________
And yet, irony….

“Of all the souls I’ve encountered in my travels, his was the most … human”

But what can canon know about the characters…..

I don’t think Spock purpose was being just another human (simplicistic) but he allegorically IS one of us and I think some of you don’t understand the character that much but want to lecturize the reboot writers here about ‘canon’.
Perhaps because it’s not Spock who is some people’s favorite but either way, your interpretation isn’t less valid than theirs.

He has some of the best and most poignant scenes in these movies but those are completely wasted for a side of the audience who will never get it but then they claim it’s the writers that are dumb…

914. Jemini - September 3, 2014

Re:why s/u didn’t have their moment in private
Because Spock had no private moment in this movie, unlike the previous one. If he did, you’d probably have his ptsd hinted better just like in the comics. The last movie, if you notice, was more from Kirk’s pov than Spock’s, thus a scene must be useful for him too ..hence why s/u have the convo in his presence.

They tried and needed to kill different birds with one stone too as they didn’t have that much screentime for everything.
The s/u scene is pretty much about Kirk and Uhura being a bit ‘allies’ there b/c in both their relationships with Spock they had a similar issue.
At the same time, it’s an opportunity for Spock and Uhura to have a moment as individuals as well as a couple that, the way the story is structured, they couldn’t have in other moments. Of course one has to care about the characters to get why the moment is important.
Also in the words of JJ, the conversation turned an otherwise useless and boring transition scene into a moment that reveals something about the characters and make them real. There are many moments like that but somehow it’s always only the female character who is accused of being unprofessional while Kirk, McCoy, Scotty are given a free pass when they are expressing their feelings on work and in missions and to a figure of authority who becomes just ‘Jim’. When dudes are not professional it’s just a fun scene but the moment a woman is given the same agency suddenly people nitpick about now the characters must only do their work and this should be a documentary about the NASA without any hint of personal stuff between the characters. Be careful what you wish for when you are nitpicking and using the unprofessional argument here. As usual, hypocrisy abound. Again, can’t have the cake and eat it too.

915. Disinvited - September 3, 2014

So what I am supposed to accept is that 200 years in a future where the ship’s chief medical officer has cured death, it still takes months going nigh on a year after the 2nd in command declared himself too “emotionally compromised” to command to that same cmo to be treated for his PTSD?

And isn’t it a fair question to ask why Kirk, who by this time has only learned all too well the dangers of putting an emotionally compromised individual in command, thinks nothing of putting Spock back in command of the E even though as captain his cmo must be keeping Kirk informed of Spock’s tendancy to relapse while undergoing this apparent long term treatment?

916. Cygnus-X1 - September 3, 2014

914. Disinvited – September 3, 2014

And isn’t it a fair question to ask why Kirk, who by this time has only learned all too well the dangers of putting an emotionally compromised individual in command, thinks nothing of putting Spock back in command of the E even though as captain his cmo must be keeping Kirk informed of Spock’s tendancy to relapse while undergoing this apparent long term treatment?

But, this is an Alt Universe, so there are new rules.

In the BR Alt Universe, the heavily armed Federation flag ship operates on a “three strikes” policy for all crew members. Alt Spock gets three emotional meltdowns, no more than two of which can be attempting to kill his captain, before being put on involuntary medical leave. That leaves one more, possibly another attempted murder, to make the third movie “more emotional.”

917. Keachick (Rose) - September 3, 2014

#912 – The story was not about the older Ambassador Spock. Yes, it is likely that the much older prime Spock would be dealing with major grief but he is NOT a main protagonist. What’s more, the older Ambassador Spock did not have his planet destroyed, see his mother die, see his mentor/captain Pike die and later a new found friend, James Kirk, die as a young man. The younger alt.Spock did.

What folk here seem to be forgetting is that most of the crew witnessing the destruction of Vulcan could be emotionally compromised in some way. It would be a matter of degree. People can still function – ie go to work, take care of family and home, engage in hobbies etc, despite their grief. In fact, resuming normal activities is often the best way to help people cope with the devastation they have encountered. It is the “when you fall off a horse/bike, then you need to get straight back on” lest your fear of injury/pain takes root and you find you are unable to get back on – ever.

I think this is the route that is being taken here with nuSpock. He is trained as a scientist and first officer of a starship. Let him resume normal duties…because nuSpock can keep his composure and can be reasonable as well as any human facing similar circumstances. Kirk was also dealing with his grief over the death of Pike, which had only JUST happened.

However, Admiral Marcus abused Kirk’s genuine grief and initial desire for revenge for Pike’s death by allowing Kirk (and Spock) to go on an illegal, crazy and dangerous mission. There is a difference between allowing people to resume their normal legal activities and routines, when they are ready, and abusing someone’s emotionally compromised state to have them do what is illegal and dangerous.

918. Keachick (Rose) - September 3, 2014

#913 – “He has some of the best and most poignant scenes in these movies but those are completely wasted for a side of the audience who will never get it but then they claim it’s the writers that are dumb…”

YEP

919. Marja - September 3, 2014

909 Keachick, “Meta” is the real-world reason something in a fictional universe happens. At least that’s my understanding of it. I should probably just say “real world reason” and “fictional reason.”

920. Cygnus-X1 - September 3, 2014

“Meta” generally signifies “one level higher” of analysis.

For example, if physics is the ana|ysis of how physical things behave at a fundamental level, then metaphysics is the ana|ysis of that fundamental behavior in abstract, non-physical, “higher” terms. Such as: a pane of glass causes light passing through it to refract, but what is a “cause”, where does “cause” ultimately derive from, and what does it mean to “cause” something to happen?

So, in fiction, “meta” might signify, for example, a self-awareness by fictional characters of their own fictitiousness (as though they were “real-life” people ana|yzing their situation from “one level higher,” i.e. from the real world looking down into the work of fiction.

921. Marja - September 3, 2014

909 Keachick, “Meta” is the real-world reason something in a fictional universe happens. At least that’s my understanding of it. I should probably just say “the-real world reason” and “the fictional reason.”

922. Disinvited - September 3, 2014

#917. Keachick (Rose) – September 3, 2014

I didn’t write these lines that were spoken on screen:

” SPOCK PRIME
Jim. I just lost my planet. I can tell
you. I am emotionally compromised.”

The writers did.

Having Ambassador Spock say that directly contradicts your assertion that the planet destroyed wasn’t in any way “his” and therefore his being emotionally compromised by it is somehow less poignant. And if the planet was his, then so was the woman who went down with it also his mother.

Take a moment and think about what you are asserting. Nero’s whole motivation for doing what he is doing is because he, Nero, is absolutely convinced the Ambassador feels diametrically the opposite about his targets than what you are asserting.

923. Keachick (Rose) - September 4, 2014

#922 – I never wrote that Ambassador Spock was not emotionally compromised by what he saw happen to planet Vulcan. He was. In fact, I indicated that in my post #917.

“What’s more, the older Ambassador Spock did not have his planet destroyed, see his mother die, see his mentor/captain Pike die and later a new found friend, James Kirk, die as a young man. The younger alt.Spock did.”
Yes, this is what I wrote. Perhaps, in order to clarify further, I should have written “…James Kirk, die WHEN HE WAS a young man…”

In fact, it was the older prime Spock who explained that his younger counterpart would be as emotionally compromised as he was. Therefore, one could not necessarily expect this nuSpock to be, do, cope in exactly the same way as the younger (Nimoy) Spock did. TOS Nimoy/Spock did not see his mother die as his world imploded. nuQuinto/Spock did!

I can’t be clearer than that…

No, this Vulcan was not prime Spock’s world, but they were still Vulcans, all 6 billion of them and the event still had a psychic impact. They were still his people, as he obviously felt a connection, whether in this or any other universe.

924. Keachick (Rose) - September 4, 2014

Life is life, no matter how universes, and we are a part of that Life.

925. Keachick (Rose) - September 4, 2014

edit: “…matter how MANY…”

926. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 4, 2014

All this silly banter about Spock’s emotions. This never should have happened. And, it should all fall apart. According to the top brains on the planet!…

“Hawking and many other physicists find CTCs abhorrent, because any macroscopic object traveling through one would inevitably create paradoxes where cause and effect break down. In a model proposed by the theorist David Deutsch in 1991, however, the paradoxes created by CTCs could be avoided at the quantum scale because of the behavior of fundamental particles, which follow only the fuzzy rules of probability rather than strict determinism. “It’s intriguing that you’ve got general relativity predicting these paradoxes, but then you consider them in quantum mechanical terms and the paradoxes go away,” says University of Queensland physicist Tim Ralph.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-travel-simulation-resolves-grandfather-paradox/

This speaks well for the next Trek. I hope Bob o was paying attention. His silence will be very telling.

927. Ralph Pinheiro - September 4, 2014

John Eaves (designer of the Enterprise-E) announced on Facebook that he’s begun work on the next Star Trek movie, his eighth. He clarified that he’s working on props along with Andy Seagel. Ryan Church and Tim Flattery are designing the new ships.

In other words, they have just begun pre-production.

928. crazydaystrom - September 4, 2014

927. Ralph Pinheiro – September 4, 2014
“John Eaves (designer of the Enterprise-E) announced on Facebook that he’s begun work on the next Star Trek movie…

In other words, they have just begun pre-production”

Cool. Wondering-

Has Bob O. been officially named director?

Is there a chance the nuE will get an exterior design tweak by Church or anyone?

Will this next Trek be THE ONE that truly fulfills my Star Trek hopes and dreams?

I’ll stay tuned. Same Trek time. Same Trek channel.

929. Commodore Adams - September 5, 2014

Its been almost a month, just wondering if there are any update on the script? Have the execs read it? Is it good to go after a few tweaks or are there major changes to be made?

LLAP

930. Disinvited - September 6, 2014

929. Commodore Adams – September 5, 2014

” Its been almost a month, just wondering if there are any update…” — Commodore Adams

No such word out of Paramount but they did slot release dates for two more sequels to its already slotted Jul 7th TERMINTOR sequel:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/paramount-unveils-release-dates-terminator-730623

931. Commodore Adams - September 6, 2014

@930. Disinvited

Right on. Im excited for Terminator: Genisys.

932. Valley Forge - September 6, 2014

@927. Ralph Pinheiro

Excellent find. I’m very eager, for this film.

933. Valley Forge - September 8, 2014

Since it is the 48th birthday of, “Star Trek”, do you think that we’ll get any updates on the next film, today?

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