Five More ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Season 2 Episode Titles Revealed

CBS has yet to officially reveal any Star Trek: Discovery episode titles beyond tomorrow’s tomorrow’s episode “The Sound of Thunder,” however due to the series airing in Canada on the Space cable network, titles are available to see in regular TV listings.

Episodes 7-11 of Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 get titles

The following titles come from the TV listings site TV Passport. (While not official, the TV listing site has proven accurate in the past.) As before, there are no synopses available for these episodes, but we have added some of our thoughts on them. There are also previously released publicity images for a couple of these episodes.

UPDATE: Titles have been subsequently removed from TVPassport, so the following should be considered very much unofficial and possibly not final titles.

Episode 7:  “Light and Shadows ” (February 28)

Based on the information in the CBS images and the fact that we know episode 6 focuses on Saru, we’re pretty sure this episode is the first appearance of adult Spock, played by Ethan Peck. The concept of Light and Shadow also refer to good and evil or truth and lies, which could tie into the science vs. faith theme for the season. It could also indicate a return of the Section 31 storyline, which is an ongoing plot thread of the season.

Ep #207 – Pictured: Ethan Peck as Spock (CBS)

Episode 8:  “If Memory Serves” (March 7)

This is a common idiom for remembering past details. Spock uses the idiom in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home when he recalls Earth’s “dubious flirtation with nuclear fission” during the 20th century. There have been hints that time travel could be involved in the second season.

It is also possible that this episode involves flashbacks to Spock and Michael’s past, which have been seen before on Discovery, including in the season two premiere which featured a young Spock and Burnham. If Memory Serves is also the title of a satirical play by Jonathan Tolins.

Episode 9:  “Project Daedalus” (March 14)

Daedalus was a skilled craftsman in Greek mythology. He created the Labyrinth on Crete, in which the Minotaur was kept. He also famously, created wings for himself and his son Icarus, who was warned not to fly too high.

In a more Trek related reference, Daedalus could refer to the Star Trek: Enterprise episode “Daedalus,” which featured the inventor of the transporter Emory Erikson, whose name was added (very subtly) to the Discovery title sequence this season. There was also a real Project Daedalus which was a study conducted in the 1970s by the British Interplanetary Society to design a plausible unmanned interstellar spacecraft. We also know that this episode was written by Michelle Paradise and directed by Jonathan Frakes.

Image of the transporter with notation of Emory Erickson in Season Two title sequence

Episode 10: “The Red Angel ” (March 21)

Of course one of the central mysteries of the second season is the Red Angel, which appears around occurrences of the seven bursts. The Red Angel also appeared to Spock at a young age and the one publicity photo for this episode features Spock, so it seems as if the Discovery crew may finally come face-to-face with the Red Angel in episode 10.

Ep #210 – Pictured: Ethan Peck as Spock (CBS)

Red Angel as seen in the Season Two title sequence

Episode 11: “Perpetual Infinity ” (March 28)

This one is perhaps the most mysterious of the titles. The title could be suggesting the concept that the universe is infinite and ever-renewing. This is an idea we’ve heard from Stamets this season; in “Saints of Imperfection” he references “Lavoisier’s Law,” which states “nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.”

Still more to be seen

This latest reveal of titles takes us most of the way through the second season, with just three more titles to be revealed for the fourteen-episode long season.


Star Trek: Discovery is available exclusively in the USA on CBS All Access. It airs in Canada on Space and streams on CraveTV. It is available on Netflix everywhere else. The second season debuted on All Access and Space on Thursday, January 17th, 2019, and on Netflix January 18, 2019.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Discovery news at TrekMovie.

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FireDevlin

Hate all you want, but as an old TOS guy I am loving this season. Anson Mount does Jeffrey Hunter proud.

90s trek

I’m enjoying this season too. I was fond of season 1 as well.

Chingatchkook

Loving what I see also. They’ve knocked this season out of the park, it’s been great.

G1 Convoy

Thank you I agree Totally this there is only one Meh Episode but other then that its been Great

UthertheGreenShirt

Totally agree Mr. Mount has been awesome and I would love to see him in his own series.

Young Picard

Time for Star Trek: Early Voyages (Pike, Number One, Spock, etc.)

Tiger2

Definitely enjoying it MUCH more this season for sure! :)

2278

Discovery’s not my cup of tea, but I will say they have made many improvements for season 2.
And to throw it out there again Discovery would have worked way better as a sequel show instead of a prequel. :P

Danpaine

I feel exactly the same way, 2278, as to both of your points.

ML31

2278, I’m right there with you. On both counts.

Marja

2278 Oh well. It’s not. [shrug]

THX1138

Same here, we’re loving Discovery in our household and we’re all Trekkers.

ML31

Well, it started out promising. But the last couple of episodes have not continued that trend. But I agree.. Mount has been the proverbial breath of fresh air. As well as Reno. Who has been amazingly underused.

Scooter

Agree 100%. I would love to see a Pike series with Mount. Not happening but still…

Marja

I have a feeling it might. Based on popular demand, maybe, I imagine the producers, having been so careful to cast an actor the caliber of Mount, have had this in the back of their minds for a while.

I would much rather see “Pike’s Enterprise” than a “Section 31 show.” Unless that latter show is folded into “Discovery” …?

Marja

Personally I like Anson Mount much better! Pike is a bit more “collaborative” than I might like, but is a warm contrast to General Lorca.
The writing this season seems a bit uneven, but still I love the show!

Peter Stevens

I agree, Anson Mount is outstanding and Discovery is all the better for having him.

Chuck Abernathy

I do love what they are doing this season. I think this season is closest to realizing Trek’s potential as conceived, with the added bonus of series- and season-long arcs.

JonBuck

There’s going to be at least one time travel episode this season. They’re hitting as many Star Trek Tropes as they can. Not that that’s a bad thing. They’ve mostly hit the mark on them so far. We may even get an explanation why the Discovery has held station for a thousand years in Calypso.

Vulcan Soul

Agreed and agreed. They dropped the hint before that ALL Short Treks are tied to season 2 so they gotta address that one somehow.

Tiger2

I hope so! Time travel is one of my favorite things about Star Trek and they basically hinted last episode that’s whats coming. And I agree as well, they are hitting all the classic Trek tropes and most of them have been done fairly well so I hope they keep it up.

And it would be cool if we actually get a tie in to Calypso. It would prove this show can think outside the box as the others but I think last episode already proved that.

Martin

I am kind of hoping that the Discovery must be abandoned at the end of the season and the show just becomes “Star Trek” for season 3, aboard the Enterprise.

Corinthian7

Who knows maybe Discovery will follow 2 separate paths with half the crew joining Pike and the others signing up with Georgiou and Tyler…

Vulcan Soul

I also think their announcement that the Space Hitler show will follow-up Discovery after season 3, and that in general these new shows shows are not running concurrently necessarily, could also mean that Discovery will not continue past season 3. Even the (supposedly much more successful) Picard show is only planned to last three seasons.

martin

I think by not running concurrently, their idea is that the new episodes won’t be on at the same time. Last year, they stated a goal to have new Trek on as many weeks of the year as possible. with 3-4 shows, they could have 40-48 weeks of the year be new shows. That means that Trek fans would possibly keep their All Access all year – I know that I would. Right now though, it will get clicked off on my Amazon subscriptions page at the conclusion of season 2, and picked up when Picard starts.

Spiked Canon

I’m not wishing for it but since we have other Trek stuff rolling out I’m ok with it, especially if Anson Mount leaves.

Corinthian7

@Vulcan Soul I don’t think this would necessarily constitute a failure on Discovery’s part though.If you think about it Fuller’s original vision was as an anthology show so there wasn’t really a long term plan for this crew but if it potentially spawned multiple spin offs then it would have to be considered a success in the bigger picture. I personally think the days of shows running 7 seasons are long gone. Who knows maybe 3 is going to be the new 7.

Joe

I thought I read once somewhere that they have a 5 year plan for Discovery

Corinthian7

Possibly they do now Joe but I believe it was originally conceived it was as anthology.

Captain Robert April

I’m starting to wonder if the anthology is actually going to be who is Discovery’s captain for the season.

Vulcan Soul

“I don’t think this would necessarily constitute a failure on Discovery’s part though.”

I didnt say it’s a failure. I’m ready to move on to new shores after the next season though. If they don’t give us the legendary Pike Enterprise spin-off, enough with the prequels already. A decade of a good thing was deemed too much (TNG-Voyager), now 20 years of prequels nobody asked for is entirely enough already.

Land O'Calrissian

That would be a stupid idea. So no.

Lando

You have been warned before, stop with the bullying and personal attacks, or move on.

Spiked Canon

Oh I’d really like an explanation for Calypso. Best short Trek btw

ML31

By far it was the best short Trek. And it wasn’t even close.

Captain Robert April

Calypso existed in a universe where Star Trek does not exist.

Who cares

Incorrect Captain April.

Captain Robert April

I am being sarcastic. Yes, the USS Discovery was technically part of the short trek, but that was the extent of “Star Trek”. NOTHING else about the short was “Star Trek” and as a result it was in most concerns garbage.

Sam

If time travel is recognized as a ST “trope” (God, I absolutely hate that word) then they shouldn’t use it again. Perhaps ever.

How many more Timelines, Past Tenses, Future Tenses, Time and Agains, Future’s Ends and Before and Afters do we really need? Because there’s been at least two of those humdrum episodes for every one Yesterday’s Enterprise or City on the Edge of Forever. Tell me that isn’t a problem.

Most fans can’t even imagine a time travel story in which the word “timeline” isn’t spoken. Fix the timeline restore the timeline correct the timeline always timeline timeline timeline.

Two of the most sublimely clever uses of time travel on ST are the 2009 movie and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. And yet fans seem unwilling to appreciating why (here’s a hint, it relates back to what I said in the previous paragraph).

And what’s wrong with Calypso remaining an unexplained oddity? Why does everything on ST need to be explained? What can you possibly add to it that doesn’t instead take away from it?

ML31

” Because there’s been at least two of those humdrum episodes for every one Yesterday’s Enterprise or City on the Edge of Forever.”

My feelings exactly.

“Two of the most sublimely clever uses of time travel on ST are the 2009 movie and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. ”

You lost me there. TVH was terrible in so very many ways and one of them was the fact that they could just time travel on a dime pretty much whenever they want.

“And what’s wrong with Calypso remaining an unexplained oddity?”

I agree with this one, too. I loved the short but have no burning desire to learn the circumstances of Discovery being in the condition it was.

eric2

This is literally the first time in thirty+ years of fandom that I’ve ever heard a fan use the word “terrible” in reference to The Voyage Home.

ML31

TVH is not universally loved. There are many who loathe it for many very good reasons. I can only think that if you’ve never heard anyone say that about that gawd awful movie then in 30+ years of fandom you’ve never met a large sampling of fans. I personally know a number of people who hated it. I know some who loved it. Made for some fun discussions.

Holden

Personally, I love Voyage Home. It was probably my main “gateway drug” into Trek when I was a kid in the 1980s. But, yes, ML31 is right to point out that it definitely has its fair share of haters among Trek fans.

Sam

I’ve long held a suspicion that fans at large were at least dismissive of The Voyage Home, and that the generational influence of Berman Trek over fans was a very likely factor. I’ve also suspected fans dismissed it because it wasn’t “dark” enough (TWOK, TUC and FC too often being cited as favorite ST movies, in as much as you could describe any of them as “dark”) or because it perhaps just didn’t have enough spaceship shots in it to please some fans.

But all that said I’ve only ever met one other person who claimed it was a “terrible” movie. For the most part, I believe the critics in their assessment of movies in general. And critics who hated TVH (or TWOK or ST09 for that matter) were in a very obvious minority.

I’ve heard both fans and fan magazines jokingly liken the whale probe to either a cigar or a tootsie roll, but I’ve never been able to take such claims seriously. Berman Trek frankly wishes its small-screen aesthetic could imagine the kind of imposing, mysterious or abstract visuals which The Voyage Home (as well as The Motion Picture and ST09) regularly utilizes.

The ST convention right here in town famously cheered that Into Darkness was the worst ST movie ever, and even that claim seems excessively hyperbolic and mean-spirited. Whereas at least there we’re talking about an admittedly heavily-flawed movie. But we’re also talking about a movie franchise that includes the likes of The Final Frontier, Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis.

I could definitely see the argument that TVH was an overrated movie, even though I no longer share that opinion. But hate is too strong a word, and I can’t take such claims seriously in regards to one of ST’s widely acknowledged better movies. I don’t even hate Nemesis, which really is a lifeless, tone-deaf picture.

ML31

The problem with Voyage Home was not because it wasn’t ‘dark’ enough nor was it because of a lack of outer space. One of my favorite episodes is Trouble with Tribbles. So ‘darkness’ has nothing to do with it. In fact, going light after the previous two I still think was a good move. The problem is it wasn’t ‘light’. It was just preposterous. It was the lifeless, tone deaf movie you referenced in your post. Into Darkness was Wrath of Khan compared to Voyage Home.

Sam

I’ve never claimed to speak for anyone who dislikes the movie. And anyway no one’s ever going to admit to disliking it because it doesn’t have enough spaceship shots. However making hyperbolic comparisons or borrowing other people’s choice of words as ammunition does not alter the general consensus. It’s your prerogative if you want to go into what you find preposterous about the movie. But you Sir, are in a minority on this particular issue.

Holden

“They could just time travel on a dime pretty much whenever they want.” You know, this is actually one of the big reasons why I always didn’t like ‘First Contact’ as much as others, speaking of classic Trek movies. Just reconfigure the warp field to recreate the vortex! They pack in a few deus ex machinas in the final minute or two of that film.

As for TVH, a slingshot around the sun does also open a big can of worms, but at least that sequence was pretty epic in its rendering!

ML31

See… I place “recreate the vortex” right there with “slingshot us around the sun”. Both are just as silly and both pretty much mean they can time travel with great ease. The difference is, First Contact was a vastly superior movie to Voyage Home. So if the movie is good such things can be overlooked. But if the movie is bad, such things are just piling onto the heap of badness. Also, I felt the time travel sequence in TVH was bizarre. Not in a good way, either. What was up with the floating heads that didn’t even look like the actors? But I digress…

Tiger2

I don’t want to sound glib here, but do people really care how they explain the time travel? I mean its been established long ago Starfleet has the ability to time travel just as they have the ability to transport or warp. And this was established waaaaay back in TOS when the Enterprise casually went back in time to do ‘historical research’ in 1968. Starfleet was already sending ships in the past for observation missions. So time traveling at great ease has been part of the show literally from the beginning.

Sure most of the time (no pun intended ;)) when they gone back its usually by an accident of some sort but its not like they can’t go back on their own whenever they want to. So ‘how’ has never been an issue because they have multiple ways of doing it. That’s the entire reason why the Department of Temporal Investigations and Temporal Integrity Commissions were created for the shows because someone realized the Federation had invented the use of time travel since the 23rd century and had to explain how any yokel can’t just travel back and do harm on a bet. And that says nothing of all the non-Federation advance species who can time travel as the Borg tried obviously.

So the explanations of how they time travel doesn’t really matter at this point. It’s well known they have both the technology and know how to do it, they are just given a lot of rigid rules not to do it outside of a mission or special circumstances.

Sam

I care. I hate expository BS like “If the Borg CHANGED HISTORY why are WE still here?”//”The TEMPORAL WAKE must have somehow PROTECTED US from the CHANGES in the TIMELINE.” If anyone can’t see how trite, how ridiculous, how unnecessary and how technically WRONG that choice of wording is then I don’t know what to say.

Recreating the Bog vortex however was never an issue with me. It was obviously the only way the crew was ever going to get back. Any other TT method would have been asymmetrical from a storytelling standpoint. And there’s practically no other place in the script to even establish rebuilding the vortex as a priority. It’s just another example of Berman Trek’s signature technobabble pretending that its “science” is something other than magic, when it really isn’t. Not to mention the technobabble shortcuts necessary in translating Berman Trek to the big screen (“Computer, mid-twenty-first century civilian clothing.” Who what huh?)

I don’t believe in fansplaining discrepancies between Classic Trek, Berman Trek or any other version of Trek. It’s very obvious Berman Trek never had any intention of acknowledging TOS’ method of time travel, and that Roddenberry himself considered much of TOS to be apocryphal anyway where TNG was concerned. And that’s the real story. So, The Voyage Home, “Tomorrow is Yesterday” and “Assignment Earth” never happened — according to both TNG and Berman Trek as a whole. “The Naked Time” DID happen, being as it’s specifically referenced in its TNG counterpart episode, but no one in Starfleet ever saw it possible or practical to reproduce the ship’s timewarp from TNT. Every version of Trek acknowledges its own interpretation of Trek history and its own laws of physics.

Computer, green juice, extra green.

Tiger2

I wasn’t talking about the temporal wake (although I have no problems with it), I was simply talking about how they time travel in general. They have established they have known how to do it for at least a century at this point. If they couldn’t get home via the vortex, they could’ve gotten home by all the other ways Starfleet has used in the past. And I don’t understand what you mean by asymmetrical form of story telling. But this idea that they would somehow be stranded in the past is ridiculous at this point. Starfleet uses time travel like it uses warp drive, its simply discouraged from being used.

I don’t get your last point, its all canon so it all happened. And it doesn’t matter what Roddenberry thought, he probably would consider half the films as non-cannon either. But he doesn’t own the franchise and the guy has been dead for a long time regardless. And your assumptions aren’t facts so I’m not going to waste my time with that argument. And its not TOS alone that has time traveled. ALL of these shows have done it over and over and over again. They all got home just fine.

And man you don’t like Berman Trek, we got it lol. But no one forced you to watch every episode and film.

Sam

Asymmetrical would be starting the movie off with one method of TT and finishing it with another. If Data announced he’d plotted a course around the sun to get them back to 24th century it would not only be a huge Who What Huh? for casual audiences not intimately familiar with ST, it wouldn’t be as tightly written or as cohesive a movie.

A good comparative example would be if Back to the Future came across the money to execute their original scripted ending, with Marty and Doc triggering an nuclear explosion at the NV test sight to charge their DeLorean for its return trip. Take the movie apart and look at how much story symmetry you’d lose.

All (filmed) ST is canon, but not all canon is created equal. TMP is the least canon ST movie (along with TFF, which the studios would probably rather just forget) because almost none of its creative personnel shaped the trajectory of its sequels. ENT is the least canon series going fwd because it’s the least mainstream in terms of how many people watched it (no need to remind me of the instances in which it HAS been acknowledged).

Roddenberry DID regard many aspects of the films to be non-canon, which is why TNG mostly ignored them (along with half of TOS). His attitudes and revisionist preferences shaped TNG which in tern shaped Berman Trek, and are therefore not without relevance.

It is not a complaint or even necessarily a criticism to observe that Berman Trek, with its temporal vortexes and temporal rifts, operated under different laws of physics than Classic Trek. Rick himself regarded TVH’s method of TT as silly (I’ve read the interviews) and he was probably right. Either way it is clear his team never had any intention of using or acknowledging “slingshot maneuver” TT in any of their episodes. You already know this. And there is nothing in canon which directly accounts for this discrepancy, not even Temporal Investigations. That is fan supposition. Meanwhile *numerous* other TOS premises were likewise ignored by TNG because they were considered too silly (and a *few* of them got acknowledged by some of Berman Trek’s post-TNG spinoffs *eventually*).

The Kelvin movies themselves received a lot of flack for once again operating under very different laws of physics (and astrometrics) compared to past Treks, which no alternate timestream alone can account for.

Also in Berman Trek’s defense, I have too often argued that every creative regime SHOULD reinvent and reinterpret ST to their liking. My issues with Berman Trek, which I consider to be a largely texture-less version of ST (it did NOT start out that way), are actually unrelated to this discussion or any of the points raised in my previous post (which I have re-read just to be sure).

But with all respect, “no one forced you to watch every episode” seems like an apologist argument. There are still many scattered portions I have NOT seen (mostly VOY), and it hasn’t been for lack of trying. Shouldn’t one at least WANT to stay interested enough to continue watching? Is that holding it to an unreasonably high standard? And is it not also cause for concern with what CBS Trek wants to do with its five-year plan of multiple spin-offs (despite their promise to give each production its unique style, which remains my strongest cause for cautious optimism)?

Tiger2

OK I get your point about the asymmetrical story. And I can agree with that.

The rest is just a looong rant. I get your point about the other movies being less canon but they are still canon, so it doesn’t matter. YEs, every show does things differently than the other shows but everything is still acknowledged to have happened even if they don’t directly acknowledge or follow it.

In fact, all of TOS time travel was acknowledged in Trials and Tribbulations (another great TT episode) when Department of Temporal Investigations visited Sisko and cited Kirk had 17 temporal violations. So yeah, all of Kirk’s time travel craziness was acknowledged which also means they were very aware of how he traveled through time (I always wondered did that include the Nexus since he traveled through time that way to get to the 24th century). But it wasn’t ignored either.

And I didn’t mind the JJ films using time travel a different way either, I just accept for Star Trek its never been consistent. But I know a lot of fans hate this version of it and it is confusing lol. To this day I thought it was a brilliant idea though and still defend it.

As far as why you kept watching something you hate, fine, I get it but I find it funny people were telling me to stop watching DIS after I complained about it for 15 whole episodes but then some of these people apparently watched and complained about Trek for 10-20 years lol. If I was still complaining for over a decade then I would’ve asked myself what am I doing but our love of Trek is strong even when we hate it. ;)

Sam

Tribbulations makes no specific reference to any of Kirk’s supposed 17 temporal violations or the details involved. Those violations could refer to any number of untold stories. They could all refer to “City on the Edge of Forever” which at least isn’t implicitly contradicted in Berman Trek to my knowledge. Their mention was merely a “Ha ha we all know Kirk was a loose canon don’t we wink wink.”

In every Star Trek TT story it is automatically assumed (often with dramatic ticking clock urgency) that the crew’s only way back is however they got there. Never once is an alternative means even mentioned. And no subsequent version of ST since the TOS movies (including Berman Trek and now CBS Trek) has ever acknowledged the slingshot maneuver as a thing. In fact TNG strongly implied it wasn’t in Time Squared. And you have Rick himself going on record saying TVH’s method of time travel required too much suspension of disbelief. Fans very often ask why Picard’s crew didn’t “simply” TT during adventure XYZ, and the answer is they couldn’t. That’s the correct answer when you already know the people in charge were never going to write that story. At some point it just quacks like a duck, and this is not a complaint but an observation.

Every version of ST has some varying degree of incompatibility with every other. I’ve mentioned there were several other TOS premises that were also too problematic for TNG/Berman Trek (and likely CBS Trek as well), and I was speaking of their science and physics in general (not just TT) when I brought up the Kelvin movies (though I actually like their assumptions re TT because they make redundant a lot of the now-quaint concerns presented in too many Trek TT stories of the past).

Off topic, this is at least the second time you’ve dismissed one of my posts as being a “long rant.” You don’t get to do that. Someone has taken the time out of their day to reply to your points, however lengthy a post that might require, and it’s not up to you to interpret their tone of voice for them because their counterpoints were inconvenient or you weren’t prepared to understand an alternate perspective. I already presented my one gripe about how TT is explained upfront, and it has not been a point of discussion since. I was in fact defending FC’s other TT transgression that had been previously cited, which respectfully makes you the one challenging me on these other points.

I’ve also never played the “Why are you watching if you don’t like it” card. I don’t know who on here has, but I just assume everybody’s watching for the same reason I am. I missed a lot of the latter-day Berman stuff because lack of motivation caused me to stop remembering when it was on. But if I actually hated it (instead of letting three of the four series into my collection) it would be a lot easier to dismiss.

Tiger2

Dude it doesn’t matter, the point is its canon. If they know Kirk went back in time, then they obviously know how he did it as well. I mean c’mon. My only point is your weird assumption is not a fact. Everything that happens on these shows are canon, so that’s all that matters even if they don’t acknowledge every aspect of it.

And sorry some of your posts are too long of a rant. I’m not saying you can’t rant, we all do it, but its multiple paragraphs saying what you could’ve said in one, so its hard to respond to all of it. Of course many of us are guilty of that at times, including myself. I’m just telling you why I don’t respond to all of it because its a bit overwhelming sometimes. I’m not saying you don’t have a valid argument, it just an overly long one at times.

Tiger2

Oh but I will say I agree with you about the JJ verse movies and their usage of TT. Even though I was never a huge fans of the movies (but liked them) I do agree its use of TT was not only good but well thought out and tried to convey to real science. It was incompatible compared to past Trek theories of TT but it worked IMO and a great example of trying to do something new with the franchise.

UNFORTUNATELY it didn’t do itself any favors as many Trek fans didn’t really like the idea of it being so different and now dismiss the movies outright. There are people who thinks the new Picard show should just ignore Romulus being destroyed altogether, that wasn’t the ‘real’ Spock who went through the blackhole and just present the the post-Voyager era as if it never happened (which I’m sure you seen my posts where I argued against that many times here). It’s weird, many don’t like the movies because it doesn’t effect main canon but then one area it does, the destruction of Romulus, they want that erased from existence anyway.

So it was an innovative way to tell a story but it seem to have alienated a lot of the fanbase in general because it didn’t align with the previous forms of TT (I know thats not the ONLY reason so many hate them, but that is a major issue). Maybe thats why they are so afraid of skirting from the prime timeline of the other shows and movies. Sadly Trek fans can be a fickle bunch when it comes to this stuff.

ML31

For me, I can accept that time travel is possible in Trek. But I sorta feel like it is something that ought to be super hard and ultra dangerous. In some stories, like First Contact. trivializing the process is necessary for the plot. And to an extent I can live with that. Provided it is not something that gets overused. Which I guess is subjective.

Tiger2

I understand that, but it isn’t and has never been. Thats why this is so confusing to me. I literally gave Assignment Earth as an example time travel was a very easy and apparently common thing to do even in TOS time. And no one touched it lol. But TOS is what established time travel as something anyone can do and they confirmed it again in TVH.

The only reason why it looked rougher there because they were in an old Klingon vessel.

But its funny people are acting like time travel is not a common thing when its been established its been that way since the 23rd century. Only Archer’s time was time travel considered something unknown and exotic at the time and of course TCW changed all of that.

Sam

Assignment Earth is an oddity even for TOS, you have to admit. It almost belongs in the same company as the two pilots, for existing outside the parameters of normal TOS (and apparently being a backdoor pilot itself). First time I caught it in re-runs I actually tuned into the following episode (which of course turned out to be Specter of the Gun) thinking there would be more.

It’s your prerogative if you want to cross-reference stories from multiple versions of Trek and reconcile the discrepancies with fan supposition. But it requires an active choice on your part, and while a lot of fans do it not everybody does. I can’t speak for 31, but to me there’s nothing to reconcile. They’re all updated, modernized reinterpretations of the original concept. I don’t care to have the discrepancies reconciled, I prefer appreciate them for what they are.

If I try every brand of root beer at the various grocery stores I’m not going to take it home and mix them all into a pitcher. That would defeat the purpose.

Tiger2

Regardless its canon. Thats the only point being made. Starfleet has established they know how to time travel. And its Starfleet, if they are invested in every other scientific endeavor then TT would be another one, right? I just don’t understand how after literally centuries of TT people would say its hard? Its clearly not that hard when you are constantly doing it by accident lol.

And unless something is rebooted, then yeah all the stories are connected and fans will naturally find a way to reconcile it all. I mean that’s the reason there are so many arguments over the shows history and events because they all take place in the same universe.

And I’m the guy who has been whining for a loooong time now I would PREFER they reboot the show in general and so other stories (like Discovery) could just take a life on their own and not have every plot point tie in to an episode made thirty years ago. But they AREN’T doing that, so here we are.

And your root beer argument is flawed because in Star Trek it IS mixed together. Thats why there are a plethora of references and cross overs between all the shows and films. None of it lives in a vacuum including the JJ movies. Picard has met almost every captain from Kirk to Janeway. He didn’t meet the captain of Discovery yet but I have a feeling if CBS gets its way that’s now coming too…probably via time travel lol.

But none of this is a big deal, its just entertainment end of the day. The fun of it IS trying to make it all fit, especially for something as big and vast as the Star Trek universe has become.

Sam

Well let’s talk about reboots, since we appear deadlocked everywhere else (and if you’ve ever whined on this subject I either missed it or didn’t register it as such). What would a reboot of the show look like in your mind? Is ST09 a hard reboot? Or a soft one? I would argue hard. I think it pays lip service to being an in-continuity (“soft”) reboot, and that Orci/Kurtzman had enough reverence/respect for ST’s traditions to push for that direction in the development phase. But they also knew how to pitch it, which I think is where much of the fan cynicism comes from. If you stripped away TMP~Everything Else, and the studio had complete freedom to choose any director-for-hire, even knowing their movie might be forgotten in six months, they might check off the exact same boxes Orci/Kurtzman did. Recast with younger stars, choose ONE veteran for a cameo (wouldn’t matter if it’s the same role), tell a simple adventure that does not dig too deep into the mythos, and reset continuity. All of these are “typical” decisions for making a popcorn movie out of a TV show. Re your Kelvin comments above, CBS could have gone either way with Kelvin Trek as far as I was concerned. They could have reciprocated, or chosen not to. Having agreed to reciprocate they still have options. They could avoid entirely getting into the “science fantasy” specifics of Big Cosmic Supernova. Or they could present the Supernova in a more scientifically accurate context. Either choice represents the same case-by-case Supreme Court decision making Berman Trek would have applied when bringing back elements of TOS into their shows. What would you consider a soft reboot? I would argue almost every phase of ST began with a soft reboot. So The Motion Picture was one. Encounter at Farpoint was one. And definitely STD is one. But I would also take it a step farther and say The Wrath of Khan is one as well. Berman Trek I don’t think had its own soft reboot, unless you count Farpoint. Thing is, I already think of early TNG as being VERY compatible with TMP, perhaps even 100%. Whereas mid-TNG kind of morphs into the homogenization of late TNG, establishing the foundation for Berman Trek’s TNG spinoffs (including ENT) to follow. By which point I no longer feel there’s a strong connection with TMP. The Final Frontier is the most obvious “apocryphal” ST, in the eyes of both Roddenberry and fandom, and I think it’s worth assessing here. This one has real problems logistically. Berman Trek won’t contain it (it would unravel both DS9 and VOY if you tried). And it’s even contradicted as early on as TNG’s The Nth Degree. STD’s continued need for its “spore drive” in search of the Red Angel tells me it wouldn’t otherwise conform to TFF either. Interestingly, I think Kelvin Trek is the only post-Bennett version of ST with lax enough parameters to (hypothetically) contain TFF. But TFF also does not contradict anything prior — not TOS nor the TOS films (except perhaps TUC which mostly ignored it). TFF is particularly well settled into the parameters established by TWOK and subsequent films. The Undiscovered Country is also interesting in that it ignores a lot of established TNG (mostly because the level of research needed wasn’t practical for a different creative team), but ends up re-shaping TNG’s and Berman Trek’s mythos to a degree. It’s in fact the most widely-acknowledged TOS movie where Berman Trek was concerned, even though its operatic soundtrack and design aesthetics couldn’t place it further apart. VOY’s Flashbacks provides an interesting glimpse of TUC through a Berman Trek filter. TUC I don’t think of as even “soft” reboot material, but it does test its boundaries more than any other ST that’s not at least a soft reboot. It was Nick Meyer with a lot more clout than he’d had on his previous Treks. The other movie that did this was Nemesis, which is (unfortunately) the best counter-argument for having kept the style copesthetic on Berman Trek. Whatever the story was with Stuart Baird, Berman Trek’s tightly knit family of ST veterans couldn’t contain him. TMP (along with some late Phase II artwork) is actually what I visualize a fully TNG-compliant version of TOS would look like — out in the ether of imaginary possibilities. A TWOK-compliant version of TOS would probably appear similar, just with brighter primary colors (per TOS) and most (if not all) of TOS’ 79 episodes remaining intact. TOS ‘homage’ episodes of Berman Trek (Relics, Tribbulations, Mirror Darkly) I think exist in a kind of pop-cultural nexus of sorts, reserved for TV shows already in the latter seasons and a time when shows in general had a LOT more episodes in them (and episodic… Read more »

Tiger2

First off, I appreciate the thoughtfulness behind your post. Although you lost me at ‘Supreme Court decision’? What does that refer to? I know you don’t mean the actual court obviously.

As far as your post, look, I’m going to be very honest with you, but you clearly has thought this through longer than I have lol. Not in a bad way, but just reading it and trying to keep up what fits where, what cancels what out, what you consider a soft reboot vs hard etc, etc is a bit dizzying for me man and I been a Trek fan since the 70s lol. I know for you it works and that’s great. For me, I don’t think that hard about it to be honest with you.

But I understand why you do it, because it makes sense but for me, I honestly just just keep it simple to what ‘eras’ the shows/movies mostly exist in. And IMO, there has been no hard reboots, only soft ones (although the JJ movies are the hardest I guess) because as said they all connect to one another. For example I consider TNG a soft reboot to TOS because I imagine that was the entire point being so far ahead. And that includes DS9 and VOY being in the same period. Then Enterprise has its own soft reboot because its the 22nd century and so there is a different language and history from the others. Of course I definitely think DIS a soft reboot (and thats part of the problem being so close to TOS). But yes if I have to cluster what I consider ‘soft reboots’ them I guess it would be (in order) ENT, DIS, TOS, TOSmovies, TNG+DS9+VOY (obviously the biggest) and JJ verse (always put this last since technically they were created from the 24th century period). So 6 definitive eras of Trek so far. DIS is the only odd one out because it aligns so closely to TOS but yet it feels nothing like it. JJ verse gets away with it being in another universe.

And to be honest I don’t do the Berman, JJ, Roddenbrry, Kutzman Trek thing. I do it here with other nerds but Star Trek is just Star Trek to me. I don’t really make a distinction, they are all my kids end of the day. Some are just better behaved than others lol.

So why I think even less about it. Star Trek is just Star Trek. Its 50 years old and hundreds of hours so of course its going to look different and even contradict at times. Thats OK, I’m not that rigid, a lot of different people (hundreds of writers and producers) worked on it at one point or another crossing multiple centuries and now universes, so I get some things won’t fit as much. The fun is making it all fit as much as possible. :)

And also canon wise, if it happened in one, then it happened all of them, unless noted other wise like the Kelvin movies. And nothing is ‘Apocryphal’. If it happened on screen, it counts, period. And why I’m so adamant that the Romulus explosion stays as canon even if others want to discount the JJ verse. And also because if everyone decides what is non-canon according to what they think sucked, how do you have a conversation. Trek fans are nerdy and fickle enough lol, that should be the one stated rule IMO. Just muuuuch easier for me.

When the Picard show gets here I’m guessing that will be considered another soft reboot for me since it will be removed from the other 24th century shows being a few decades ahead. God this is fun!

Sam

The Supreme Court thing was something Orci/Kurtzman referred to when making canon-based decisions for their movie. A crude example might be “Kirk Vs Whale Probe sets the precedent that temporal mechanics on ST are such-and-such.” At any rate I think their Supreme Court got them in trouble with fans.

A year later they were launching the Kelvin comic tie-in series and one of them made a comment like “Obviously we’re the one’s currently determining what’s canon for now” and again got themselves in trouble with fans. However I think on both occasions they more or less described what’s been the process whenever there’s been a regime change behind ST.

Sounds like we checked off most of the same things. I didn’t include ENT as reboot personally because I feel like a staff change would be prerequisite.

As for doing a full reboot (with no prior association if I understand correctly?) I wonder how possible that would be now that we’ve already rebooted with Kelvin Trek (and fans remain obsessed with the primary distinction being between Kelvin and Prime). I think if anyone did it it would have to be Paramount on the film side. Though I wonder if a CBS merger wouldn’t be the best thing for the film franchise at this point (I just don’t know if I’d want to see it go to Kurtzman as part of their five-year deal). I wonder if a merged CBS/Paramount would consider keeping ST film and TV separate like DC comics does. All loose speculation of course.

As for canon not all being equal, I don’t think it bothers anyone if they never acknowledge episodes like Threshold or Spock’s Brain. With TFF I think there really are just problems ST doesn’t want to deal with, such as Spock having a half-brother (whether that’s still and issue after STD) or Enterprise jumping halfway across the galaxy in seven hrs. On top of it not being regarded as a good movie.

For my part I can’t un-know the seeming intentions of the filmmakers based on the trends they set, and what they seem willing to do or not do. That’s been my experience ever since ABC broadcast TWOK (on what turned out to be a bad reception night for our translator) midway through TNG’s S1. And contrasting both Treks at the time I already kind of figured Roddenberry’s TNG could take or leave most of the existing movies at that point. Turned out to be mostly right.

Picard show should be fun. It’s encouraging that CBS is promising a different staff for every ST project. And I’m glad it isn’t “just” the post-VOY/Nemesis spaceship-based series that so much of the fan community seems to want.

Tiger2

But I said this before, while TT is VERY easy to do in Starfleet, its obviously very frowned upon because of the inherit dangers of it, so they are probably told to never do it under any circumstances (unless ordered to ala Assignment Earth). And its also why we saw creations like Temporal Investigations show up and other agencies whose job is to handle time travel restrictions. They had to somehow enforce it once it was done as often as it was, even if 90% of the time it was an accident.

In fact out of all the stories of TT, Kirk was really the only captain who purposely used time travel to solve a problem in TVH but that was obviously very extreme circumstances. Most of the time it is done by accident but its clearly an easy thing to do in Star Trek.

Tiger2

I don’t know, I guess its just how you see things. To me at least, time travel is just part of the franchise and one of those Trek plot lines like the crew getting stuck on a planet, aliens taking over the ship or accidentally finding humans on another planet among many others. Its just part of the what Trek is. And as I mentioned in another thread some of the best and iconic episodes are time travel ones and been everything from introspective to funny. And all the films had great time travel stories, two that you mentioned.

Now that said I agree, you can do it too MUCH which I think Voyager probably did but its not like anyone is suggesting DIS do a bunch of them but one every once in awhile wouldn’t hurt either. Especially if its good.

As far as Calypso, I agree they don’t necessarily need to do anything more with it, but if they came up with the story because it was always part of a bigger plot line just like visiting Saru’s planet was in his Short Trek then I’m pretty excited to see where it all goes.

But honestly I’m just glad to see Discovery feeling like Trek again and its not just about wars and who is secretly a Romulan agent like season one. I’m much more invested in the stories they are telling now.

Marja

Tiger, There was a secret Romulan agent? What’d I miss? ;^)

Tiger2

LOL, it was just an example. Although I been joking I wouldn’t be surprised if we found one this season. My money is on Tilly for sure! ;)

Corinthian7

I’m with Tiger on this one I love a good time travel episode and there’s nothing wrong with fixing timelines in my opinion. I get why some people might think it’s overused and maybe they’re right, I don’t particularly have an interest in watching a show set on a time ship or following temporal investigations but time travel still works as an event for me.

Tiger2

This is exactly how I feel too. I don’t want Star Trek to be a time travel show or anything and they probably over did it with the temporal cold war on Enterprise (but I know that was mostly done as a mandate from UPN to not have it feel like a complete prequel show).

But overall time travel is one of my favorite things about Star Trek. I probably can pick 20-30 of those episodes I really loved. For me, its easier to say which ones I didn’t like vs did (oddly enough I was never a huge fan of Year of Hell like so many others seemed to be. I liked it, but it wouldn’t be in my top 10 time travel episodes). But stories from Timeless to Past Tense and All Good Things have all been amazing IMO.

I’m not expecting anything grand if DIS does one, but it will just be fun to see another one. And that was probably why Sanest Man was my favorite last season by far (and the only episode I’ve seen more than twice for DIS first season) because of the time element. They did such a good job with that one I think it will be fun to see a full on time travel story.

Corinthian7

It’s funny you should say that because I was always a little bit disappointed with Year of Hell. I think a lot of that is because I think there had been rumours at the time that this story would be done as a season arc so I felt a little short changed with a two episode timeline reset story. Plus I think there were other episodes that had similar concepts that were done better. Yesterday’s Enterprise springs to mind.

Tiger2

I heard that too and I’m pretty glad they didn’t do that tbh because I would’ve wanted more wide ranging stories in general (and Voyager made 25 episodes a year, it would’ve been a little too much IMO). But I would’ve been fine if it went a bit longer though. I think for me it was mostly the hard reset that bothered me. Its obviously not a new thing in Trek but it felt like it was wrapped up WAY too easy considering how many times they altered the timeline in the story. I rewatched it again a year ago and still felt the same way. But OK I guess we are getting off topic lol.

As for DIS, there are now theories that the Red Angel could be a time traveler itself. And I saw a CRAZY one today it could be future Spock lol. I really, really hope not but I can see this entire story line ultimately being a time travel story of some kind, especially since the Red Angel brought humans to a new planet post WW 3 and still helping them 300 years later. It could all be tying in to a future event they know is going to happen and trying to stop.

Jai

“As for DIS, there are now theories that the Red Angel could be a time traveler itself. And I saw a CRAZY one today it could be future Spock lol.”

I’m thinking it could actually be future Burnham. The silhouette seems to be female. So…this may be a glimpse of Burnham’s fate at the end of season 3, if DSC really is going to last for just three seasons. Spock etc will discover the Red Angel is Burnham at the end of season 2, and the final season shows how she gets from “here” to “there” ;)

Tiger2

Wow an even more interesting theory. I don’t know if they are going to go that big with it though but its interesting how Red Angel has gone from being another species entirely to now people thinking its someone we already know from the future.

I do believe its possible its someone time traveling but I don’t know if I buy its someone from the crew itself. But I been wrong many times before, including when I was quite adamant its no way Tyler was Voq. That would have to be one of the dumbest things done in Star Trek I said at the time. And I was proven both wrong and right. ;)

Marja

Well, if you’re talking archangels, in the Bible, Michael is the one who leads God’s armies against the Evil One

Ometiklan

It was originally Brannon Braga’s pitch that “Year of Hell” would last a whole season, but the powers that be shot it down. For me, learning this was one of the most interesting bits of Voyager trivia because it would have meant fulfilling Voyager’s original premise of lost, alone, and with no support network but for real. I am sad it was not done.

As for being too much “Hell” over a year, I think they would have broken it up more with a lot of “anomaly of the week episodes” with the overarching Krenum Imperium story to tie it all together. I also think they wouldn’t have gone with the hard reset at the end of the year. Sure you can wipe out one or two episodes of “reality” from canon (see this or “Course: Oblivion”), but I can’t see them thinking they could wipe out a whole season of character developments (what little there was in Voyager).

Tiger2

I guess I would’ve had to seen how they would’ve done it but knowing how badly many time travel stories gets screwed up the longer they go, I’m trying to imagine how they could’ve done it an entire season and not have a plot hole ridden mess by the time it was over. But maybe if they did what you said and it wasn’t always time focused but did other things, it may have worked.

Corinthian7

@Tiger2 Interesting. It does potentially make sense that the red angel is a time traveller and therefore one of the principles like Spock or Burnham. I recall Anson Mount saying that one of the goals for the character was to show that what happens to Pike in Menagerie wasn’t a tragic end but a victory for the character so maybe he becomes the Red Angel through The Talosians. This might add another layer as to why Spock was so certain that he had to get his former captain to Talos lV.

Fred Javelina

He is a Minbari not born of Minbar…

Sam

I don’t deny time travel is one of those characteristic aspects of ST. It’s even the reason why the 2009 movie’s built-in reboot mechanism actually worked (and worked appropriately). I also don’t know of any other sci-fi/space/time-travel franchise that could have used that one. Dr Who already had its own long-established “time to re-cast” reboot mechanism. But I think certainly with ST a lot of these traditions/habits/formula are worth reevaluating with every generation. We’re in 3rd Generation now, with a dash-B on the end of it if you want to examine just the TV side (CBS Trek). So what goes? Versus what gets carried over from 2nd Generation (Berman Trek)? Memory Alpha counts no less than 54 time travel episodes for ST altogether (though “Past is Prologue” is their only STD mention for some reason). Now is that really OK considering how few of them are actually good? (I only come up with 21, and I did that by not discriminating which episodes on the list I thought actually qualified as being time travel “stories”). For my part I don’t believe something should be done again once it’s already proven successful. You wouldn’t make the Buffy musical episode again. In ST time travel terms, that means recognizing once you’ve already made “Yesterday’s Enterprise” and your latest treatment is just another variation of it. My uncle bought me the time travel DVD set several years back, just because he didn’t know better. Now I can’t find it, and may not have held onto it. But you can be sure DS9’s Tribble and Ferengi Roswell episodes made the set, as did the Jake/Sisko episode. You can be sure that both “Endgame” and “Year of Hell” made the set, even though the latter is not cataloged as tt on MA. ENT may not have been represented at all. But even in a hand-picked “best episodes” set you could see the creative wheels spinning — and eventually grinding. You see classic TOS starting out with strong character-driven tt stories in which the temporal mechanics were still very sketchy. You see the point where character and high-concept achieved a balance with stories like “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, and you witness where high-concept started giving way to gimmick or technobabble with some of TNG’s latter efforts and with DS9/VOY. Though no one wants to argue that “Little Green Men” or even “Year of Hell” shouldn’t have been made (I don’t). I do know however that I’ve gotten more than enough technobabble “explanations” involving bogus temporal forcefields that allowed characters to (safely) witness/exposit disruptions across space and time, or Everything Washes Over resolutions that begged the question of whose story/experience this was anyway (Jammer on his site actually predicted the prior week exactly how YOH would resolve just from the Next Episode teaser)… while perhaps NOT ENOUGH instances of someone like Nick Meyer, or even Orci/Kurtzman, stepping in and deciding “To f*** with the space/time continuum; the STORY here is the whales, the STORY is Kirk’s and Spock’s first mission together, etc.” At some point you’ve just had enough stories about the space/time continuum almost coming to an end. There’s not the time to go into the reasons why I actually believe The Voyage Home is the best ST movie (they are several), however from a tt perspective I’ve always found it ingeniously refreshing how Kirk avoids mentioning anything eye-rollingly specific when sending his crew out with orders to be careful. I love that the movie is NOT about Kirk’s glasses or Checkov’s gun, and it knows it. Regretfully, if I were running a ST writer’s room, I would at this point make it a standing order that we weren’t doing tt stories, period. This would NOT eliminate them from consideration though. Someone could still challenge the room with the perfect tt story that ST had never conceived of before. It just wouldn’t come from the seven-out-of-ten writers unfortunate enough to have taken my instructions at face value — which would be sort of the point. Make sure that any new tt story really does pass the test for being fresh and interesting. CBS also has the opportunity to reinvent ST just like every version prior (NBC/Classic Trek, Roddenberry Trek, Meyer/Bennett/Nimoy Trek, Berman Trek, Kelvin Trek)… to which they’ve shown varying degrees of promise in general — it’s still kind of all over the map at the moment. But one thing they could do with tt, if they really must play with it, is work on evolving it further as a sci-fi concept. That might mean coming up with a *consistent* theory of temporal mechanics and committing all future stories to it for the duration of CBS/Kurtzman’s five year deal. This theory could be the predestined paradox, or it could be the often-assumed danger of multiple or “lost” realities… Read more »

Sam

Well my own reply re time travel vanished into the Bermuda triangle after I refreshed, maybe I wrote something that triggered it into Purgatory, maybe it will come back, but it was too long to repeat in any case.

I agree overall STD has gotten better, although the last two eps I don’t think I enjoyed quite as much. We may be approaching the point where the show’s 2nd staff shakeup again threw the series off trajectory.

eric2

That’s a good observation about the “restoring the timeline” plot being beaten to death. Those plots inherently lack drama because of course the timeline will be restored. It’s become a lazy well the writers have been going to since… I wanna say First Contact?

To further your point about unoriginality, too, I’m looking at that list of episodes and I’m having a really hard time telling which ones are which.

On the other hand, though, I think there is a longer list of episodes that did some good dramatic stuff (or at least novel things) with time travel than you are giving credit. Time’s Arrow, All Good Things, The Visitor, Cause and Effect, Tapestry, Little Green Men, Time Squared, A Matter of Time, We’ll Always Have Paris … etc. Of course the recurring theme here is that none of them had to do with “restoring the timeline.”

Also, I’ll fight you to the death about “Past Tense” being a bad episode, haha. IMO, that’s a great example of a worn out sci-fi trope being used to tell a good allegorical story. (The themes of that episode are still super relevant.)

Sam

If Past Tense is the one I’m thinking of, it may be worth revisiting in that it resembles where we’re actually going more than any other “dystopian” interpretation of ST’s 21st century (EU, WWIII, etc). I mostly recall some generic beam-down encounters experienced by Kira and Miles, as well as that expository technobabble temporal forcefield that reared its fearful head again in First Contact. And that may just be unfortunate recollection on my part throwing the larger picture out of context.

ML31

I’d be willing to fight you on “Past Tense”. Although DS9 was the best of the spin-offs they still had bad episodes. It was tired and worn and 100% ridiculous. It was silly then and it continues to be silly now. Nothing allegorical about it in any reasonable way. The one where Sisko was Benny was so much better it was immeasurable.

Marja

Agreed Eric2. It was chilling to re-watch a couple of months ago, in view of present-day developments.

Tiger2

Its always surprising when I come to these boards because until now I had no idea people hated Past Tense lol. Of course not everyone would like it but I never met anyone personally that had an issue with that story until now. Like you, I think its a time travel story done right and hitting on a relevant issue. And I like the few time travel stories where they don’t necessarily go into our past but Star Trek’s past like First Contact and Past Tense did. Its always fun to see how the past helped shaped present day Starfleet.

ML31

My problem with Past Tense is that they created a super ridiculous situation that is very difficult to buy into. There was absolutely nothing “chilling” about it. It was just absurd. The moment they started talking about “sanctuary districts” I knew the episode would be terrible. Doing future history requires coming up with something that the viewer can buy has possibly happening. What they degenerated society into was just many steps too far. It just wasn’t DS9 at it’s best. The time travel story that I have been jonsing to see for ages is to go back on Vulcan. In fact, I had always felt The Voyage Home would have been FAR more interesting if they had done the same story but set on Vulcan of the past. We’ve never seen it and it would be nice to see the humans forced to fit in instead of Spock.

Tiger2

OK fair enough, but actually the idea of the sanctuary districts wasn’t that unrealistic as oddly enough L.A. city council was considering moving homeless people into one area of the city AS they were making the episode that year. And I remembered that because I’m from L.A. and it was a hot button issue at the time. Memory Alpha has a blurb about it discussing the episode:

“While the episode was filming, an article in the Los Angeles Times described a proposal by the Mayor that the homeless people of that city could be moved to fenced-in areas so as to contain them, in an effort to “make downtown Los Angeles friendlier to business.” Alexander Siddig has commented on the amazing coincidence: “The episode was almost a cinematic version of that statement by the LA council.” (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion) As Ira Behr comments the plan was “to put aside part of downtown Los Angeles as a haven, nice word, a haven for the homeless.” Similarly, as Robert Wolfe says, “That was what the Sanctuary Districts were, places where the homeless could just be so no-one had to see them, and literally there it was in the newspaper. We were a little freaked out.” (Time Travel Files: “Past Tense”, DS9 Season 3 DVD, Special Features)”

So not as far fetched as you think and this was 1994. ;) It didn’t happen obviously but it does prove much of the fake history that has been presented in Star Trek hasn’t been completely out of bounds. I mean no more than genetically altered men taking over the world lol.

ML31

I can buy Khan Singh taking over 1/4 of the planet more than I can buy into governments creating “sanctuary districts”. And for the record, I have heard of such strategies to coral homeless in a number of cities. And it was not even close to what was presented on DS9. (And please, do not read that as an approval)

A similar issue appears in the show The Handmaid’s Tale. (never read the book or saw the earlier movie) Mrs ML31 and I watched the first season recently and my problem was the situation was just too absurd to get past. It was so absurd that there was a scene towards the end of season 1 that elicited howls of laughter from me. It was so amazingly goofy that it crossed the line to outright comedy.

Tiger2

No offense but I don’t really buy that. You can somehow believe someone could create super advanced genetically altered people who could end up taking over half the world and then of course escape via sleeper ship to float through space where their bodies can survive in stasis for centuries, but you have a hard time believing this same universe would have governments creating a zone just for homeless people? Dude, c’mon!

And even after you said you have heard similar measures? They don’t exactly have to be like DS9, its the point that governments considered such things in the first place. Star Trek has always been tackling social issues, usually in the extreme. And I don’t find that an extreme when Star Trek has predicted everything from Eugenics wars to every lawyer on the planet being murdered post WW 3. Star Trek has always presented its Earth history as an incredibly violent, in-humanizing and chaotic one. We always say we want a future like Star Trek, but none of us wants its past lol.

I didn’t read your second paragraph so forgive me, but the second I read Handsmaid Tale I stopped. I plan to watch that show and don’t want to get spoiled. ;)

Land O'Calrissian

Well, we’ve known there would be a time-travel episode since before the season even began, so that’s no surprise.

Tiger2

Actually I didn’t know that! When was this confirmed?

Season 2 was kept pretty tightly under wraps. There were fans making guesses, but I can’t think of anything anyone said officially.

eric2

I’d be happier if Calypso was just left unexplained, but if they are going there I would wager on a scenario where they abandon the Discovery for a thousand years only to pick it up again later in the future and bring it back. Sort of a situation like Data’s head in “Time’s Arrow.”

Holden

It’s odd: it feels like just yesterday that I was sick of time travel in Trek. Maybe it was rooted in the convolutions of the Kelvin timeline. But now I kind of miss it. I hope it is a rumor that turns out to be true.

Vulcan Soul

Of all these titles, and apart from the Saru episode next week, Project Daedalus has me most curious as it suggests some standalone aspects rather than more cut up soap opera and storylines galore (unless they are repurposing the Daedalus name for something new) Are they gonna tie the invention of transporter technology to the Red Angel arc?

90s trek

Daedalus is first a foremost out of Greek mythology.

Yeah, and the original Daedalus has created wings to flee a labyrinth. Maybe it is a connection with the Red Angel…

Who cares

Is Spock wearing a Section 31 outfit?

Martin

When Section 31 captured him, he was in his hospital robe. The only clothing they have on their ship is all black.

Marja

LOL that must be depressing as hell

It’s very stylish though. Being a Vulcan he probably selected the very best in S31 couture

Sarek’s outfit from the end of season one was almost a S31 outfit, but in dark brown leather. We’ve seen Michael in another dark brown leather outfit in the later trailers for season 2 as well. So I guess the Sarek family digs that look.

Kevin

“If Memory Serves” is something Spock said in STAR TREK IV

GarySeven

Star Trek II

Jack

“If memory serves, Regula I is a scientific research laboratory.”

I gotta say, when the Abrams movies had young-ish Spock repeat lines from the TOS movies (that Sherlock thing and “the needs of the many…”), it really bugged me. Can’t we just write for the character instead of recycling Recognizable Things Spock Has Said? Sure, a “fascinating” or two are expected, I suppose, if they must — but let’s not turn the guy into Fonzie.

So I hope they don’t do that here.

*I realize that this is only an episode title, so far.

Land O'Calrissian

This isn’t a reference to anything. “If memory serves” is a common phrase. Stop melodramatizing. Sheesh.

Marja

People use phrases throughout their lives. Jaysus

Tiger2

Why would that ‘bug’ you though? KU Spock is still suppose to be the same as PU Spock with the same personality and upbringing. It would be weird if he didn’t say similar phrases.

Marja

Spock said “if memory serves” a time or two in TOS, as well. Maybe more than two times.

Captain Robert April

If Memory Serves, it seems like he said that on the bridge of the Bounty. It’s been a while since watching it though…

G1 Convoy

I think Episode 9: “Project Daedalus” my actually Refure to Daedalus Class Starships and we may actually see one one screen for the first time

Vulcan Soul

One way or another, it would fit their stated goal for this season to tie Discovery more tightly with established Trek canon (which we think of as afterwards, but which may be before as well)

JonBuck

That would be cool. I’d love to see more callbacks to Enterprise, myself. Like the Xindi and Sphere Builders. Possibly the Temporal Cold War.

Vulcan Soul

Me too! In retrospect Enterprise feels much better done than at the time, especially in light of the canon discussions back then! The division and controversy pales in comparison to the Abrams movies and Discovery.

Marja

It pales beside the newer controversies? My god, and I thought these have been bad!

Vulcan Soul

“It pales beside the newer controversies?”

I mean at the time the outrage about “too advanced technology” was huge, especially about the “Akiraprise”, but compared to Discovery, they actually handled this part of canon pretty deftly. They even gave the interiors a submarine feel. And though we have to retcon that the NX may have inspired Akiras design cues later, the actual details of the ship were clearly pre-23rd century (not to forget, they picked a fan favorite with the Akira design and not a never used, butt-ugly draft design that was discarded for a reason). So not at all a “visual reboot” like Discovery with 24th century ships and technology, not to speak about all the redesigned aliens.

ML31

Regarding redesigned alians… I loved what they did with the Andorians on Enterprise. Using the antenna to express emotion was quite clever.

Marja

Indeed, ML31. I kind of wish they were sticking with that look, and not using Disney Maleficent cheekbones and voice-enhancing tech, but heck, I grew to love the new Klingon look. But now that’s been replaced by the NEW new Klingon look.

Thorny

Dear God, no. The Temporal Cold War ruined Enterprise.

Vulcan Soul

“The Temporal Cold War ruined Enterprise.”

Just because they never had a real plan for it and never properly resolved it. It was an interesting concept that could’ve elevated the pretty random and lackluster second season.

Captain Robert April

It was definitively one of the worse plot lines of the series. The Xindi arc was better, but season 4 was a couple steps up.

Jack

I’m worried that finally seeing Spock might be a little anticlimactic after the buildup. Same with this whole Red Angel mystery.

I’m hoping to be proven wrong.

I’d love some nuance (ex. a more complicated, less hammy Georgiou) and grown-up storytelling.

Marja

Yes Jack, Georgiou is regrettably hammy, but the Emperor has been pretty hammy from the beginning. Too bad, bc Yeoh can be subtle, as in “Crazy Rich Asians”

Vulcan Soul

You’d hope the Space Hitler show will at least provide some cheese with all that ham! ;)

Marja

Let me hasten to add, though, that I did like Yeoh as Prime Georgiou. I think of her as “Mother” Georgiou :^)

Boze

Erickson’s “credit” was there in season 1 too. But the season 1’s transporter pad was vertically rotated so it wasn’t entirely obvious what it is. It’s in the same frame with mek’leth.

ML31

Spock utter’s “If memory serves” in WoK. When recalling that Regula One is a scientific research laboratory. That is where I recall the line.

And forced to admit that adding Erickson’s name to the transporter in the titles was a nice touch. Showing they can get some Trek things right when they try hard enough. :)

Land O'Calrissian

They didn’t add it–it was already there last season.

simon

the Red angel is himself from future trying to talk to him about the other timelines….so this is why we see the 2 enterpize…

Not a fan of how Trek has abused time travel stories. Traveling in time seems to be as easy in the Federation as stealing a starship. Spock and Pike’s Excellent Adventure, anyone?

Marja

I don’t like the temporal paradox as a philosophical problem to begin with. I am fine with multi-verses though.

jako

A Pre TOS Enterprise Show… meh. not really.
Give us New characters and new storys!

jako

Timetravel is so overused! True, its a Trek Trope and they have done it all the Time and so on.

But fellow Trekkies… is this really what you want? Do you really want a new Star Trek that is basicly a patchwork of old Star Trek?

If you ask me… I would love a Trek that breaks ALL the rules. A Brand new Trek that keeps the universe but dont give a damn what old trek did.

I I dont mean Disco… no. Disco is just weirdly uninspired. Its not really new, not really old its just very mediocre.

I dont want gore and violence and… Space Hitler. Thats not what i mean with different.
I want different in terms of what DS9 Did to TNG.

They basicly kicked off from inside of TNG´s best Episode and established a very strong connection to TNG by doing this. But than they just did a lot of new stuff. having a Station, having a Wormhole permamently present, having important recuring villians (done before but not like Dukat), having grey support characters like Garak… having alien Protagonists like Quark. All that was new… it broke the rules and established new ones to trek.

So… this is what i want.

And its the writers Job… not the fans job to do so. And they dont really deliver.
Its entertainment… bland and bad entertainment with few points of light in it!
But where is the brave and the bold? They said its the boldest Show on television…
Excuse me? Where? What in Disco is bold and new.

Its a TV Show like other TV Show that keeps telling you that your characters are Cool, crazy, fancy and that stuff but what in Disco is actually thought provoking?

And no…. making Space Hitler a S31 Agent is not Thought Provoking. Because its basicly just a vehicle for her to be… cool, crazy and fancy!

Its sad but there is no deepness in this sky!

David Reynolds

Great. Skinny-jean Spock. Just what we need. Go ahead and add a man bun while you’re at it.

Danpaine

We already have a guy with one of those. One is (more than) enough.

Tiger2

LOL!

Kevin Lee

Episode 7: Is that Spock’s knuckle hair?

Episode 8: Looks like Spock’s footprint

Episode 9: Smells like Spock

Episode 10: Is that Spock I hear?

Episode 11: Spock-a-riffic

Ostasa

I hope so that episode Daedalus would feature Tau’ri ships…

R. W. Tompkins

I don’t know how many CBS subscribers dropped out after Season 1 ended – I did. I do wish they would commit to a 22 to 26 episode season. Star Trek will always be this services’s moneymaker. It’s good that they are moving ahead with the Picard project. I know Sir Patrick takes good care of himself, but age always makes me nervous. I hope they resolve the B4/Data question even if it’s just a knockoff line. It was suitably addressed in the comics preceding the first Star Trek Kelvin timeline movie.

As to the subject at hand, Section 31 is being overused in Discovery at this point, since no one in the NextGen era even really knew it existed until it popped on DS9. Perhaps the proposed Section 31 series with Michelle Yeoh will come to the point of how and why it went so far underground.

Discovery is slowly coming hand to glove with TOS. I wondered how they would work the Mycelial [sp?] Network out of the series since TOS doesn’t even hint at it, but it appears the writers have its disappearance into Star Trek oblivion well in hand.

Looking forward to Ethan Peck’s appearance as Spock. He looks good. I always wondered if Spock would ever reveal his ‘first name’ [ You could not pronounce it, according to TOS Spock]. It’s probably a script hiccup that will be eternally ignored. Probably for the best, even though it would seem that many Vulcan males have a name beginning with the S sound and ending with hard K sound. Be tough to differentiate between one and the other at a Vulcan convention without another denominator.

I probably won’t be around to see it, but I can imagine after Discovery meshes into the beginning of TOS that CBS could film the lost 2 seasons of TOS and the time between TOS and TMP and TMP to Wrath with new actors filling the beloved roles. It appears the Kelvin movie timeline is on its last legs anyway. Television was always Trek’s strength. There was a reason why Paramount never committed to a large budget for the original movies until Nemesis broke the bank. Even so it was ‘only’ budgeted at $60m. It was laughable that they built the Bridge set on a gamble and it was only used in a couple of battle snippets….

I hope they conclude the Kelvin timeline in the next couple of movies if they even make those.

For some reason, as much beloved as Star Trek is, it will never be a super movie franchise along the lines of Marvel or Star Wars. It’s a puzzle that may never be solved. Discovery is proving the old gal still has TV legs [even though these episodes look like moderately budgeted movies] even after countless episodes and 13 movies…..