Our final update regarding the big Star Trek Universe panel at San Diego Comic-Con focuses on one legacy show that hasn’t got a lot of attention in the new Star Trek shows on Paramount+, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Bringing back DS9 characters?
Picard will be connecting even more characters from Star Trek: The Next Generation and at least two characters from Voyager are appearing on Star Trek: Prodigy, but Deep Space Nine has not been getting the same level of attention in the 24th-century Trek shows. One upcoming exception came from the Comic-Con trailer for Lower Decks, which revealed the show will visit the station in season 3. and the panel with showrunner Mike McMahan promising “you might see some friendly faces in there.”
During the Q&A at Comic-Con, a fan asked executive producer Alex Kurtzman if there have been any discussions about “looking again at [DS9] and bringing us up to date on those characters.” Kurtzman was careful in his answer but did reveal there has been some talk about the show:
I’m trying to answer your question without revealing anything. I think you’re always having conversations about the history of Star Trek. And obviously, Sisko is a critical, critical figure for everybody. So conversations definitely have been had.
In addition to saying there have been discussions about DS9, Kurtzman’s comment about not “revealing anything” indicates there is at least something coming related to DS9 beyond what was shown for Lower Decks. A good guess might be a visit with one or more characters from the series during the third season of Picard, which has been hinted at by showrunner Terry Matalas. Michael Dorn’s Worf will be on the show, of course, and yes, he was a main character for a good part of DS9, but that’s not likely to be what Matalas meant, as Worf is there as part of Picard’s TNG sendoff season.
Kurtzman went on to explain what it would take to revisit DS9 and/or those characters:
What I’ll tell you is that, for us, we don’t want to just launch into something without going, “Oh, we have now a new idea.” A new reason to do it, a way to turn it in a new direction so that it’s not just repeating the thing you’ve seen before, but it’s also honoring the thing that you love. So if we ever do go down that road, other than what we’re already doing on Lower Decks, I think we would all want to make sure that it was coming from that place of being able to tell a new story while honoring the old one.
So it doesn’t sound like Deep Space Nine will be a big factor in either of the two Star Trek shows that Kurtzman said were currently in development. And for what it’s worth, the show is getting some big attention from IDW Publishing, who announced a new ongoing Star Trek comic book series that will focus on Sisko returning from the Bajoran wormhole after the DS9 series finale.
Yet more to come from SDCC 2022
There is still more to come from our Comic-Con coverage. Stay tuned to TrekMovie.com for more news from San Diego, and check out the rest of our San Diego Comic-Con 2022 coverage.
Keep up with all the Star Trek news out of San Diego Comic-Con here at TrekMovie.
There’s little that could be done to improve on DS9, so outside of a couple of legacy characters showing up somewhere that are still in the service, I’d say don’t bother.
NBC’s Battlestar Galactica reboot seems to have died on the vine (I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m mistaken about that). I’m good with that, for the same reason. Ron Moore’s BSG was damn close to perfection, so don’t mess with it.
I find myself in complete agreement and total disagreement with you simultaneously.
Phil, your Ron Moore BSG comparison kind of unintentionally proves the opposite of you your suggestion here, since it already was a new version of an existing BSG series from 25 years before?
So why shouldn’t DS9 get that second series 25 later just like BSG did, as you unintentionally point out here?
BSG was a complete reboot of a crappy show. In general I prefer reboots to bad projects rather than reboots of good projects. Of course, that is not an absolute. Just a generalization.
Nah, the original series was actually pretty good for 70’s TV series, and had a ton of fans. If not, it would never have been rebooted.
I was the prime age for digging BSG back in the late 70’s. (Early teens) And I just saw it as a very sad Star Wars rip off. It was truly awful.
Nah, for what it was, it was a good looking series with great TV VFX for it’s day, decent acting, great music and had a solid following that persevered over many years — all of which convinced Universal to eventually reboot it. The only reason it got cancelled was because it was too expensive to produce for a TV series of that time.
It’s fine that you don’t like it though.
The one thing it had going for it was it has a really good opening theme. But while expensive it really didn’t have the viewers. They tried to squeeze it with the cheaper “Galactica: 1980”. But that crashed and burned as well. The reboot wasn’t because Universal wanted to. It was Ron Moore who decided the reboot it in a radically different way. Better. I know there are some who liked it, though.
Galactica 1980 had one great ep with Starbuck and a Cylon trapped on a planet together and needing to cooperate. The rest of the eps were bad.
You are incorrect about it just being Moore wanting to reboot it, as Glen Larson had been working with Universal for several years on a new movie or TV series, but then Moore came in an got the project. So Universal was going to do something — it was not just Moore showing up and pitching this to them cold as you are suggesting.
BSG was perfection right up to the finale but IMO the final few eps kinda dropped the ball.
Yeah… The finale was amazingly predictable. But there are far worse finales out there.
Do you know that a Babylon 5 reboot is in the pipeline? Wouldn’t it be insane if let’s say DS9 got a modern version at the same time?! With the history, the shows share, it would cause a lot of internet drama.
But in all seriousness, the B5 reboot will be helmed by J.M. Strazincky, and I have big hopes for it, but for DS9 I would wish for a continuation with the OG writers like they did break the 8th season in the doc What we left behind. It looks like Kurtzman is open to a lot of things these days, kinda looks like they figured it out the hard way, that you need to work with what came before in Trek to have the fan base onboard.
Yea, but it’s going to be on the CW, which is a red flag for me. But I am hoping for the best.
I remember fondly when DS9 and B5 were on at the same time in the 90’s for a number of years — that was such a great time to be a sf fan.
I would actually like to see a BSG-type reboot for Space:1999… of course they would have to change the title to Space:2099 or something. But it would be interesting to see what someone else could do with it in this day and age.
I always found Brooks acting curious. Not as wooden as Frakes but definitely very strange.
Not that DS9 ever hooked me. B5 was by far the better show.
It was never a competition for me, both of those shows knocked it out of the park.
Agreed. It was so awesome to have new eps of both shows airing for that several year period!
I’ve always thought of both of them as comparable. It was a good time to be a fan of space based sci-fi.
It sure was. Star Trek in particular. I’m a TOS guy but I still consider the 90’s to be the Golden Age of Star Trek. Plenty of decent series’ and feature films at the same time. It’s never been better than that.
Yea, until the second half of the 90’s anyway when you could start to see the Berman era getting too comfortable and formulaic with Voyager…that mediocre series that was definitely a step down from TNG and DS9, and it was the harbinger of the disaster that was looming at the turn of the century with Insurrection, Enterprise and Nemesis — the three headed disaster that nearly killed the franchise.
I think what halted things was the dreaded franchise fatigue. It does exist. Not sure how Marvel is getting around it. Every movie they make is practically the same movie yet they still make millions. But Trek not being nearly as popular did indeed suffer from it. When Voyager ended I thought it would be a good idea to go a year or two before starting another series. But Enterprise did come and I feel like setting it in the time frame it was was a good idea and made it feel fresh. Nemesis suffered from the glut of Trek as well as a lack of promotion.
I feel the same way. I was loving Trek all the way through the end of Voyager. By the time Enterprise started, unlike you I wasn’t feeling it because it was a prequel (never liked the idea) and I thought the show was boring first season and gave up. But I also thought DS9 was boring its first season too. Honestly I was kind of tired of Trek by then BUT if I liked Enterprise more at the time I would’ve kept watching.
You know my feelings on Nemesis but after I saw that movie I felt Star Trek definitely needed a break lol. But on the TV side, they should’ve waited a few years before Enterprise came on. I think it was just too much.
Funny you mentioned that. After seeing the overated Dr. Strange movie this Spring, I passed on the new Thor, and I’ve kind of decided to skip Marvel movies going forward. Might make an exception for GOTG 3, but that’s about it.
OMG, don’t get me wrong as I love Frakes, but comparing Brooks acting to Frakes is like comparing Steak to Spam. LOL
Avery Brooks is a fascinating actor with a unique blend of stoical naturalism and expressive theatricality. Definitely unusual for mass market television of the 1990s, so “strange” is one way to put it.
Speaking of acting, I’ve never gotten past the pilot of Babylon 5 due in part to the acting and direction, which to be nice could be called “campy,” but might be more accurately called atrocious. Don’t tell me… it really picks up in season 3 when Lorne Greene and Grace Lee Whitney show up as part of The Boron Arc. To be clear, I’m willing to overlook the Atari graphics and shoddy production value that made it look cheap even in 1995.
Well that was a rather misguided decision by you, because the predominant acting issue with the pilot was the wooden actor in the lead role, who they then replaced with Boxliter for every subsequent episode.
Woops for you! They replaced O’Hare at the end of season 1 not because of his acting but because of his psychotic mental state that meant he couldn’t work anymore.
Which of course is why they brought him back for two episodes the following year and while he also was on the Cosby show and episodes of law and order right afterwards. Sure there were some reports talking about what you suggested, but everyone who watched the show knows his wooden performance was the reason he absolutely had to get replaced.
Boxliter is a superior actor and MJS jumped at the chance to bring him in. If they wanna hide behind that excuse, so be it, but we all know why it had to happen.
Lorne Greene and Grace Lee Whitney ?!?! When did they appear in Babylon 5??
Beware of “genius reviewers” here who see one ep of a multi-year series and then show up here to make fun of the series and tell us all it it sucks because of their opinion of one ep. That’s both moronic and intellectually bankrupt.
You are not alone friend. Brooks liked to ham it up, I thought he was fantastic as the ”Bond villain” in that episode I can’t remember it’s name for that reason. It suited him perfectly. He’s acting style was strange indeed(and not a good strange)
100% disagree. DS9 is brilliant so is Avery Brooks. He is my favourite captain on par with Patrick Stewart’s original Picard. Never watched or cared for Babylon 5 but I doubt strongly it is even in the same solar system as DS9. Now that I speak of it, indeed I saw some episodes. I found them ridiculous.
Well, it is IP. Of course there’s always going to be discussions about using it again, again, and again. It’s what these big companies do. Just like there will always be discussions within McDonald’s about bringing back the McRib.
Having said that, I wouldn’t mind a taste of DS9 again. It was a great show, mostly.
And by “taste” I mean something limited like an old TV reunion movie*, which is what Star Trek: Picard should have been all along, in my opinion.
*Just not terrible like those reunion movies from the 80s and 90s, okay. I’m still trying to forget A Very Brady Christmas.
What, you didn’t like “Rescue from Gilligan’s Island”?
Ha, I saw that one too! But the only thing I really remember about it is Gilligan telling everyone about this ‘Star Wars’ movie he saw. That, and don’t they end up on the island again? It’s fate, I tell ya.
Those reunion TV movies are awful
Yeah, I said that. Which ones did you watch?
I would love for Ben Sisko to “return” on The Orville and see Dr. Finn and say something like, “Cassie? Is that you??”
Suppressing my gag reflex with that thought…..
Not Ben Sisko but I would love to see Avery Brooks on the Orville.
I don’t want to revisit DS9 unless it’s written/run by Ira Behr.
100% this! Wouldn’t that be ideal.
I just realized that Ira Steven Behr is almost 70 years old. So I’m not sure he’d want to go through all the stress of running a TV show again.
However, looking at IMDB page, he seems to have taken an executive producer’s position on a new scifi series that hasn’t been released yet. On the one hand, that suggests he hasn’t retired. On the other hand, his involvement in that shows probably reduces the chance of him taking on something based on DS9.
68 years old, wow!!!
Next thing you know we will have and 80+ year old leading one of the new series’. That’s not gonna happen. Just retire already.
That goes without saying! 100000000% agree!
If I never see that guy’s stupid goatee again, it’ll be fine by me.
Meh. If girls can dye their hair purple guys can dye their goatees purple
Yeah … if they should learn anything from the debacles Picard Season one and two were, it’s that you really shouldn’t touch legacy characters unless you have someone there, who actually knows how to write them. He doesn’t have to run the project but have him be a consultant that has the power to veto really bad ideas. Maybe let him pick the writing staff.
I really wish SNW had a consultant with veto power.
Agree 100%. Ira Steven and the lead writers / producers of DS9 were brilliant. Under immense stress, time pressure and limited budget they managed to write 26 mostly great episodes! Nowadays they can’t even manage to write 10 decent episodes even though they have „unlimited“ resources and a lot of artistic freedom.
Sad but true. DS9 had TWICE the episodes shows like Discovery and Picard has and yet it run circles around them. When it got very serialized in the end, the show was mesmerizing to watch and the Dominion war went on for 5 seasons (although they didn’t really declare war until the end of season 5).
I just don’t understand how you can only produce 10-13 episodes a season like PIC and DIS does and yet half of them still feel like complete filler? It boggles the mind.
As well as SNW…
DS9 is my favorite of the new-Trek Berman shows. I wouldn’t say the episodes were “mostly great”. Like my favorite, TOS, there are still a lot of dog episodes there. That’s to be expected. But the ratio of good to bad episodes on DS9 was pretty darn good. And like you said, they were creating 25-26 episodes a season! 2.5 times more than the current nu-Trek gives us. Yet somehow they were able to more consistently produce better content than the group that has no deadlines, nearly unlimited resources and supposedly “artistic” freedom like you said. The one and only one aspect the new shows do better than the older ones is in SPFX. This current crop of Trek writers and producers I guess one might say they have an edge in production design but if so it is a slight one. I shudder to think what this group could create if they were given 12 weeks to write 10 new episodes.
I consider the story of DS9 to be finished. It is unnecessary to bring anyone back. It’s a series I prefer to be left alone.
I 2nd that. I fear it would just ruin a good thing.
In hindsight, I think bringing Sisko back might be a mistake if only because he’s just too serious of a character. He is the most serious and tortured of all the Star Trek characters. But Bashir with his lightheartedness would be wonderful. Vic Fontaine being the ageless hologram that is all about entertainment like the LDS crew would fit in perfectly. Ditto with quark. Might be nice to see the current state of the Ferengi with Negas Rom.
Depending on how they’re bringing him back it would really undermine the Ending of DS9, which was very important to Avery Brooks. In the original draft he just left after a short goodbye. But he insisted to have an I’ll be back line in there (don’t remember the actual line) because he didn’t want to play into the stereotype of black fathers leaving their families.
So having a story, where he was gone for 30 years wouldn’t work.
IIRC the line was something along the lines of of maybe I’ll be back in a year, maybe I’ll be back yesterday. It spoke to the fact that Sisko’s life was not linear and he could exist at any point at any time.
In Universe, yes. But it was put in vor a very real world reason.
I honestly don’t have too much of an issue if Bashir or Jake Sisko show up on Picard or some other show of the right time frame. Just don’t want to see a DS9 centered show. I feel that has been done.
I dunno. The story of the Dominion war is certainly finished. But there is still a very big whole in Trek canon such has how the Federation, and Bajor and DS9 in particular, recovered from the War. I think it might be nice to see that. How did the entire Alpha quadrant get from the point of the end of the Dominion War to the point where Romulus blew up (not that they are related)
Whatever Avery Brooks agrees to do, if he does, will be good. Might not be perfect, but it will be good. And a huge win to get Brooks back to add more to the mythos of “The Sisko.” What happened to him? Kassidy Yates and their daughter? Jake, the writer? What does a human being in 2500 do with a deeply spiritual identity?
Seems to me there is a very good chance Michelle Forbes and Nana Visitor will return in PICARD or LOWER DECKS. A nice setup for the next story about the Bajorans, setting an ideal setting for a season of an 2500 anthology series after PICARD… Sisko, Kira, Janeway, Seven, Chakotay, etc …. Even Elnor and Geordi’s daughter. Lots of potential.
I think Avery Brooks is done with acting. He didn’t even record any new material for the DS9 documentary being happy for them to use previous interviews. I don’t think it’s down to any issues with being a part of Trek but more just wanting to enjoy other aspects of life and feeling like he’s said everything that needs to be said.
It might sound mean but I like to believe Ro is dead or in jail. Not that I have anything against Ro. But she was a Maquis VOY tells us those who weren’t lucky enough to be arrested were all wiped out. and I kinda hate it when all of our heroes always magically survive or are forgiven.
Tasha and Jadzia died because the actors left. Trip died because the show ended and Bragga was bored. Spock died and immediately came back (Thank God). Tasha came back with yesterdays enterprise and Sela. Jadzia sorta came back with Ezri. Someone needs to die and stay dead.
Everyone comes back. Just ask Shaxs.
The Return of The Sisko!? Benjamin deserves a movie, no less.
And please, the original creative team has to be onboard. Ira Steven Behr and his favorite writers. I know it could be possible.
The unfortunate truth is that AFAIK Avery Brooks doesn’t want to come back. He is done with Hollywood and happy teaching. To quote somewhat StarTrek VI he’s done his bit for king and country.
I have a feeling he will return if certain conditions are met.
I just hope Kurtzman don’t replace him with a new actor.
Rene and Aron I understand. But Avery, his return to the franchise will be a big surprise.
It seems likely that Kurtzman is mostly referring to the Lower Decks DS9 episode which will certainly see some voice cameos, not to mention some cameos on Picard S3 (excluding O’Brien sadly). As for bringing back DS9 a’la Picard, I think that is unlikely, if not impossible to do so in a satisfying way. We’ve lost some key actors, and Brooks has gone into seclusion and is very unlikely to return to the roll outside of perhaps a voice cameo (which alone would be remarkable). If there is ever a Voyager reunion show, which I think is more likely, some of the DS9 characters could be part of that story.
But I can’t help but feel that “Picard” has shown me that revisiting these shows and characters isn’t as rewarding as I hoped, with a few exceptions here and there. I’m hoping S3 of Picard makes me feel differently, but they just haven’t handled this well. They really need the original producers and writers for shows like this. That’s why I prefer they just stick to what they’ve been better at, making their own shows from scratch.
Honestly, I would be WAY WAY happier with a DS9 and Voyager HD/4K restoration.
I agree with you 100% about Picard. It hasn’t been a great return at all frankly. HOWEVER I will say people have responded to all the legacy characters well, from the Rikers to Q and of course Seven of Nine. They have all gotten pretty big fanfare on the show and any issues about them are not the characters just the writing of them. But I think the people making these shows sees the positive wave of fanfare every time a legacy character is announced. And I wouldn’t be surprised episodes when they first appear in gets the bigger spikes for views or rewatches. I didn’t love season one of Picard at all, but I rewatched Nepenthe about six times now.
I think Picard season 3 will be the ultimate test because it’s really the first of these shows that is bringing the entire cast from a previous show back and they know this has to be REALLY good. And a lot of people from the behind the scenes of TNG, DS9, VOY etc are back for this season (but sadly none of the writers). So I think it’s going to feel the closest to TNG era than the first two seasons of Picard certainly did. Fingers crossed anyway.
I don’t need a DS9 revival show or anything but I do want to see DS9 characters part of future shows the same way we have TOS characters in the Pike show. I don’t want a TOS revival show either but I hope the characters stick around in future projects. I assume that will be the case for TNG era characters going forward as we are already seeing in PRO, LDS and PIC.
Picard has a few invaluable episodes and scenes that are among my favorite in all of Star Trek, Nepenthe and the first 3 episodes of Season 2 (which is why the failure of the season was so crushing). And then there are a few scenes and moments that are incredible, including the Data and Q farewell scenes. I’m holding some skepticism for season 3 because I fear they won’t have enough story or budget to pull this off in a satisfying way, but I have faith in Terry Matalas. But I’ve also come to the conclusion that while I love Disco and SNW, I don’t find it nearly as must-watch as something like Picard or even LD. I’m much more invested in that universe and those characters so I’m there on the dot when the new episodes publish, not necessarily so with SNW even if I think it’s a better show. It’s a strange realization that only streaming could reveal ;)
So sure, if you were to ask me what I would want to see most, nostalgia bait will always work for me, even if I think they seldom make great shows.
I think we are in total agreement! ;)
I agree Picard definitely has some great episodes, no doubt. In fact I rewatched the first episode of season 2, Star Gazer two days ago. That is a fantastic episode and what convinced a lost of us season 2 was going to make up for season 1 if you thought that season sucked. Sadly it was not to be. But yeah, there are definitely some strong moments and probably a good half dozen episodes out of both seasons I could happily rewatch. But again, being so serialized just makes it hard.
Of course I’m still very cautious about season 3 now too. I was one of the people singing Matalas praise when I heard he was creating season 2. But it sounds like it’s season 3 that is telling the story he really wants and he’s the sole show runner this time so we’ll see. They sadly only have one last time to get it right.
And while I do like SNW a lot, for me I too am more interested in the 24th/25th century era of shows and where I’m more focused on because the mythology and legacy characters of that era is so much greater you can play with. And since PIC is a sequel to that era you can still do anything you want with it. The idea of going back to the ramifications of the Dominion War 20 years after the fact which we will see in Picard is something fans wanted to see for years now.
I think SNW is good so far, but it’s still a prequel at the end of the day so there are still story telling limits of what they can do. But it can flesh out the 23rd century a bit more like they are doing with the Gorn. And also with TOS characters pre-TOS, which is a lot of fun so far.
But the problem is that the ONLY parts people have responded well too are the legacy characters. So far minus seven that makes up like 20% of Picard, most of which is Brent Spiner who isn’t even data.
Granted that will change in season 3 to be sure. But more important than the characters being there is how they interact with each other no how they are written. What remains to be seen is if this new production and writing staff can recreate the magic of TNG with our beloved character acting the way they did when Ron Moore et all were writing for them? Because all I have seen so far is *hugs* miss the old days or *stop being an ahole Jean Luc*
I don’t want good old days talk or stop being mean to the android. I want ENGAGE
EDIT: edited for quality assurance purposes.
I agree of course. I’m not saying show casing legacy characters was enough for the show, it clearly wasn’t. Only saying it proved how much fans really wanted to see them again so not surprised why season 3 has become what it is. The reality is they (CBS) probably wanted it to be a TNG revival show all along because they knew it would create more excitement with the fanbase; but it still doesn’t mean it would be good. Hopefully it will be though.
But that’s another thing, according to one of the people who watched season 3, they DO act like their old selves and in fact says Picard acts and feels like old Picard himself. He hated how Picard was portrayed in the first two seasons and that in this one he is more commanding and decisive. That’s partly made me a little more excited that Picard doesn’t just feel like a bumbling grandpa like I feel he’s been.
I hope Season 3 is just footage of the other actors, in full makeup and costume, slapping Stewart for dragging everyone into whatever he thinks Picard is.
Also, let’s think about how all the TOS movie time in total is about 12 hours. And half of those movies aren’t that great.
They actually aren’t better at making Trek shows from scratch. They are just as bad at it.
I agree. Picard has been a complete disappointment. The direction Jean-Luc Picard when is something that is so out of character for the man, that it’s not believable.
The story for Season 1 was horrible, followed up by a equality horrible season 2. While I think there was some good story in the ravel about his mother, that too was hard to swallow. Are we to believe that in the 24th Century one would not become aware of the suicide of their mother as Starfleet Security did their background cheeks on academy applications?
Add in that they went out of their way to unnecessary kill of characters, it was just a bad two season. There was no reason till kill Maddox, and frankly, when the producers failed to get the original actor back, they should have abandoned using him as a character. The recast Icheb, and then killed him a a middle finger to the original actor because they did not like his politics. They killed Hugh for no reason at all. They created and killed a Riker/Troi child with a stupid storyline, again for no reason. They offed Chabon off-screen in Season 2 for no reason.
I do have high hopes for season 3.
This is clearly just second information but apparently some people have already seen a rough cut of season 3 and according to some it is a night and day difference to the first two seasons. And one of the people who supposedly seen it hated the first two seasons as well. So that gives me some hope we are in for a better season just beyond seeing Geordi and Worf again. But this person has said it’s really the best of everything when we think of TNG and Star Trek in general so I’m getting more excited about it.
But I also agree, I think what put off fans about season one was killing off so many characters. It’s a show you obviously have to have stakes involved but to kill off so many legacy characters and in such half hearted ways like Hugh and Maddox made people more upset than anything.
It’s exactly why so many hated Generations. If you’re going to kill off Kirk, the most iconic character in the franchise, you have to do it in a way that feels earned and not just to do it. Same issue with Data in Nemesis. Same issue with Trip in These Are The Voyages. People hate a lot of these stories for good reason, but a big part of is just killing off beloved characters. And why season one of Picard got a lot of hate on top of everything else.
Yikes. I hope you are right tiger but I heard the same of season 2. And to be fair season 1 and season 2 we’re night and day different. But that didn’t make s2 better past the first 2 eps.
As for killing off characters in Trek, Trek has a BAD record with this. They’ve done it justice once and only once with Spock. But to be fair, when they did it right, MAN did they do it right!
but when they didn’t?
tasha, meaningless death.
jadzia. Meaningless death.
Trip. Braga threw the die.. again meaningless and pointless.
at least SNW gives death meaning. Unless S2 changes that.
Hope I’m right too! But with season 2 everyone who saw it advanced only got the first three episodes IIRC. And those were at least decent. Episode 3 dropped but I think people just told themselves it will pick up quickly after that..it didn’t. ;)
Tasha and Jadzia wasn’t great either but those were actors leaving the show so they had to move on from them. And I didn’t like how Hemmer was killed in SNW either. It really weakened the show but I’m willy to see who they replace him with. Grateful it’s not with Scotty at least.
I still don’t consider Icheb a “beloved” character. Or that other one or two episode guy whose name I don’t even recall. I think we kinda knew Kirk was going to eat it in Generations. They didn’t handle that very well but I will say this… What we ended up with was much better than the original version the test audiences absolutely hated. I saw it. It was just awful. And I still think it salvaged by the line “It was… Fun.” I thought the Data end made plenty of sense. Data’s journey could only go so far. And it very much looked like he grew as far as he possibly could and his last action was the totally human sacrifice to save the crew. Trip was a symptom of a bigger problem. A lot of problems with TATV and the Trip death just added to that pile.
Lastly, I’ve heard past stories of people who have seen early episodes of these shows before they are streamed to all who have claimed they’ve been really solid. Thus far, none of them have been correct. So I’m really not interested in what those who have seen it already say. I am thinking people that say that are just Paramount plants trying to drum up interest.
Hey, I never said Icheb either. ;)
But I think many do love the character because there was so much outraged seeing him die, but it was probably just how brutal he was killed off too. The character was back on screen after 20 years to basically be tortured and killed. I think that was the instance the show was starting to lose people.
We agree with most of the other stuff although I didn’t love how Data was killed and had problems with it. But it wasn’t that bad, I think people A. hated Data was killed and B. he didn’t get to say goodbye the way Spock did in TWOK. But it was 100 times better than Kirk’s death. I like Generatios in general but so much of that movie just makes no sense.
And I’ve already said people who saw ‘past shows’ of Picard only saw the first 2-3 episodes. I read or watched nearly every review of the first two seasons of Picard I could get my hands on at the time and it was only the first 3 episodes in both seasons, which most of us loved too or at least thought it was decent before things really went downhill. That’s why the critic reviews for Picard and Discovery are so high but the audience ratings are so low because the critics are only going on the opening episodes where the rest are judging the entire season.
In this case, some people got to watch all of season 3. So they are judging it by the entire season for a change. Of course you can still not agree with them but it’s a different situation. And one of the people who I know watched it is Robert Meyer Burnett. I have no idea if you know who he is but take my word for it, he is NOT a fan lol. This guy is a bigger hater of Secret Hideout than you are. He’s hated all the Kelvin movies and every new show including SNW. He thought Picard has been some of the worst Star Trek that has existed and considers it his worst show in the franchise. He gave up on Discovery by season 2 because he thinks everything about that show is plain dumb. So for him to like season 3 of Picard is pretty eye opening since this guy has been dogging all things NuTrek for over a decade now. Of course it’s still just his opinion but the season really won him over. I have my issues with modern Trek and certainly Picard but generally like most of it, so I’m hoping I can be won over like him since Picard is still my least favorite.
I’m still surprised at the negative reaction to Icheb’s fate, myself. I thought it was a rare good creative decision on the part of the writers. 7 needed motivation. Icing Icheb was the obvious and best choice to provide it particularly in the way they did it. The only better choices available would have been Janeway or the Doctor. The Dr can’t die, being a program and all, and no way was anything like that ever going to happen to Janeway.
Regarding Data’s demise… Both your theories sound plausible to me. Especially the annoyance that Data didn’t get a “final moment” with Picard or Geordi like Spock had with Kirk. That one really rings true to me as I have found that many TNG fans come across as a bit envious of TOS when it comes to the feature films. Spock got a better death scene and TOS got the better finale. Which is also where the concept of “we need to give TNG a ‘proper’ goodbye’ comes from. To me, if they did give that to Data it would have felt like it was copying that Kirk-Spock moment in WoK. They needed to do their own thing. And I really liked that Data said nothing to Picard. Uttering only “goodbye” when he fired the phaser. I feel like the look they shared said everything that needed to be said.
Regarding the idea that a person who has not liked anything made by Secret Hideout was good with Picard S3 has liked what he saw… I guess that could be a good thing. But I still have learned my lesson. I do not give two sh!ts what anyone or anything says about a Secret Hideout show before it streams any longer. I cannot trust anything. Secret Hideout has lost all benefit of the doubt after what they did with SNW. At this point I’m thinking that if they make anything even mediocre it’s by pure accident. It feels like to me they aren’t even TRYING to make decent Trek. Yes, I know. They are but that reality only makes things worse.
For people worried that DS9 characters was getting the shaft on the new shows versus the TOS, TNG and VOY characters will probably feel a lot more happy in the next few years. DS9 being my favorite Trek show by far, I think those characters are about to get a big resurgence soon. Obviously some will appear in Lower Deck soon but it sounds like there are bigger plans going forward.
I think we will see a few of them next season on Picard too. Matalas dropped a nice bit of news a few days ago that when we see Worf again, his story line will heavily be involved with the Dominion war! That alone got a HUGE smile out of me. But I wouldn’t be surprised he’s possibly with 1 or 2 of his DS9 crew mates as well. It would be a little odd if the season involves the Dominion war but no one else from DS9 is part of it. Prepared to be wrong but really hope I’m not!
Either way it’s just great to see this era of Star Trek and characters all roaring back again! The 25th century era is what I’m most excited about going forward because the potential is there to use legacy characters and story lines we haven’t had in 20 years.
I’d love to see some form of DS9 revival as we are seeing TNG and Voyager get brought back via Picard and Prodigy.
Avery Brooks’ apparently permanent retirement from screen acting leaves a major hole in doing that, although with such a rich ensemble you could probably build a worthwhile project around Kira, Bashir, et al.
Sisko and Odo would need to be recast, and if you’re taking a deep dive into secondary characters, so would Nog.
Odo being a changling is an easier recast but I personally don’t see a reason to recast any of the characters. Whilst it would be great to see Sisko back his story does already have an ending so if Brooks doesn’t want to be part of a potential revival then simply don’t include him. Likewise Odo got an ending too and given the size of the extended DS9 cast and the likelihood that we’d also be getting introduced to new characters it’s unlikely we will get to see all of them return anyway. Therefore there’s simply no need to include Nog, just find a way to honour his legacy.
Definitely agree! And I been one of the people who thinks Brook’s time with Star Trek was done but now I’m coming around he may in fact be coming back. Probably not in Lower Decks or Picard but future shows feels like a bigger possibility now. They know how much the fanbase wants to see Sisko back or at the very least bring him back into the fold. So maybe he may show up at some point.
But if not, as you said there is still a huge amount of characters they can use for future shows like Dad, Kira, O’Brien, Bashir, Garek and on and on. The possibilities are endless.
How could you recast such pivotal characters and don’t you think the other cast would have something to say about that? Avery Brooks hasn’t done much screen acting since finishing DS9 and he didn’t record any new material for the DS9 documentary. I think the chances of convincing him to come out of retirement are unlikely. But it would be great to get some of the other characters.
I didn’t say anything about recasting anyone David. I assume all those characters would be played by their original actors unless the actors just don’t want to come back or something.
I don’t think Brooks is a guarantee or anything. I fully agree he’s probably still one of the hardest to convince to come back. But we could’ve said the same thing about Stewart and Mulgrew as well and they are now both back. They talked Nimoy out of retirement to play Spock again. Have to give it to Kurtzman, he has a pretty good track record getting a lot of these people back. He probably just guarantees a ridiculous amount of money at them but hey it’s working lol.
Oh and ‘Dad’ was supposed to be ‘Dax’ lol. Just in case people are confused.
I did. I find it a bit presumptuous to assume all you need to do is wave a red jumpsuit and throw some Benjamins Avery Brooks way, and he’s going to come a-running. Rene Auberjonois and Aron Eisenberg have found their way to Sto-Vo-Kor, so there’s that. Jadzia was killed off. I’m sorry, but a DS9 reunion is really going to be contrived. There may be a reason Ira Stephen Behr isn’t attached.
First off, I mostly agree with you. As I said I don’t think Brooks is begging to come back to Star Trek. I have been saying that for a long long time now. Until THIS article, I was convinced we would never see Brooks as Sisko again and we still may not. But there could still be talks behind the scenes that they are interested in bringing him back and how that can be done. But it doesn’t mean he will be back.
But then look at Patrick Stewart. He has said in past interviews he turned down many ideas for years from others who wanted him to play Picard again after Nemesis (I would love to know what so of those other ideas were ;)). But of course someone FINALLY convinced him to come back in 2018. It took nearly 20 years but it happened. So you never know right? Kurtzman seems to have a way of convincing these people to come back since he and Bob Orci got Nimoy to come back for the Kelvin movies and later Stewart and Mulgrew for their new shows.
But I also think there are two different track of discussions happening. One side, like me, is just suggesting we will see more DS9 characters in the future on other shows or spin offs. I think that’s all Kurtzman is suggesting like how we seen TOS, TNG and VOY characters show up on other shows. But then there is the other group suggesting we’re getting a DS9 reunion which I don’t think is the case at all. So I don’t think you have to worry about that.
But of course this is par for the course when it comes to this stuff. It was the same thing when Kurtzman suggested we would see more crossovers in future shows which to me just meant we could see Burnham show up on Picard or SNW or something. But to others that meant “WE’RE GETTING AN AVENGERS LEVEL STORY LINE!!!!!!” Um…maybe, but the guy didn’t say that lol. And of course the first crossover happening is just a few characters from LDS going to SNW just like similar crossovers we saw in the 90s.
I think the same mentality is happening here. I don’t think Kurtzman is saying anything more than they would like to see a few DS9 characters back in future shows. MAYBE one could have their own spin off like Picard or Janeway but it would be more of a direction like what they are doing with Janeway in Prodigy. Maybe Bashir will come back in a Section 31 show or something completely different.
For all we know, the DS9 story we’re getting in LDS may be the one and only time we’ll ever see those characters on the station again. So I wouldn’t over think it…at least not yet. ;)
As for Brooks and Sisko, he may just be asking the guy to show up in one episode of a show IF they are talking at all. It doesn’t mean he wants him to lead a new show or anything so who knows? But if they did pull a miracle and got Brooks back to play Sisko again, even just as a one time deal, that would still be an exciting day!
I have no special insight whatsoever but my gut tells me that Brooks is done with it for good. Which is fine as I really like the completed Sisko story and like Kirk, consider his book closed. And Mulgrew and Stewart were just an offer away from returning to those parts. I also feel that Bakula would do it in a heartbeat provided he had time from his other work.
Again could be true. The thing about Star Trek is that pretty much every main character on every show has made an appearance somewhere else when asked. The ONLY main actor from a show (that I know of) that has turned down all offers to be on other shows or films was Nichelle Nichols. She turned down offers having roles in Voyager and Generations. But as far as I know every other actor from TOS to VOY at least has taken something when offered. Doesn’t mean everything, but something. Stewart has turned down offers to play Picard in the past after Nemesis, but yes someone finally convinced him to come back (for better or worse ;)).
But maybe Brooks will follow Nichols lead as the second actor to turn down any roles outside of DS9.
Well… They could reuse Dax with anyone but Terry Farrell is likely out with Jadzia being dead and all. And I think it’s a bit of a stretch to bring back yet another person from the dead. Or will they go the evil twin route again?
I was suggesting Erzi Dax. ;)
See above 😁
They could reuse Terry Farrel if Ezri has one of those rituals where she visits her pst lives
Just my opinion, but seeing them show up on Lower Decks in some comedic fashion is not all that compelling to me. Just fan service on steroids.
Yeah I know your opinion on Lower Decks lol. But I think it’s going to be tons of fun to see them on the show. I got goosebumps just seeing the station in the trailer. And they may not all be comedic but I’m OK if they are. It’s still nuts LDS is the show that will have two big crossovers this year.
You are correct, mainly because LDX is nothing but fan service on steroids. It’s all they do.
I’ll happily keep taking those steroids! ;D
I dunno if you remember but up until SNW I felt that other than Spock (the ambassador of all shows Trek) TOS has gotten the shaft in new trek. A constitution class uss janeway? Seriously?! Ok. anyways…
DS9 has been seriously been under utilized and I totally agree with that. And I can’t wait for DS9 the station to come to LDS. Having said that, I’m not sure LDS is the best show for it unless you are using lighthearted characters like Bashir or Vic Fontaine. Kira and esp Sisko are just to serious for a show like that.
as much as I do not like DISCO, I would like to see the status of the gem quadrant and the station I the 2nd century. Are they are stupidly technologically backwards as the federation is? Or is that just an alpha quadrant thing?
I thought TOS was represented plenty in the first two seasons of Discovery. The other shows a little less because it’s been a century later so naturally the focus won’t be as high. That’s sort of how it was in the older 24th century shows too. But even all of those generally hailed them as iconic. And LDS actually mentions TOS a lot. It’s a big reason I love that show so much. But now that we have SNW and half the TOS cast is on that show, you no longer have to worry about that. ;)
Yeah can not WAIT to see DS9 on Lower Decks. We knew it was coming because McMahan said awhile ago DS9 characters were coming on the show next season. I just didn’t expect to see the station itself. And it’ll be fine. I pointed this out in another thread, DS9 is a serious show but it also had most of the comedic and light hearted episodes in the franchise. There is way more comedic episodes in DS9 than there were in TNG and VOY. Most of them were Quark episodes but DS9 has proven the characters can be comedic fodder when a story calls for it. Every episode is not always The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight or Far Beyond the Stars. There is also episodes like Our Man Bashir, Bada-Bing, Bada-Bang, In the Cards and Take Me Out to the Holosuite among others. DS9 can let its hair down from time to time so not worried if it’s more a comedic or lighter side of the show.
And I trust McMahan 100% so excited to see how they pull it off!
Very Interesting 🤔 what Alex Kurtzman said about Deep Space Nine. Notice how he specifically mentioned Sisko? I think they’re talking to Avery Brooks about coming back and playing Captain Sisko one more time. Since the comics are considered canon now since April 2019 and Trekmovie has even pointed out how the new Star Trek comic tells the story of Captain Sisko’s return from the Wormhole, I think we’re gonna see the on screen return of Benjamin Sisko real soon.
My theory is that Alex Kurtzman wants to do a Picard-type show for ALL of the Star Trek Captains. So I think we’ll get Star Trek: Janeway, Star Trek: Sisko, Star Trek: Archer, and the last one will be Star Trek: Kirk (since they have to wait a few years for Paul Wesley to be the same age William Shatner was when he played Admiral Kirk.) eventually. And by telling the story of Sisko’s return in the comic first, then they don’t have to go through the baggage of telling it on screen so they can just focus on whatever the story is that will involve Benjamin Sisko in it. I’m all for it 🙂 ❤️!
I’ve wanted to see Avery Brooks on one of these new shows for quite awhile now 🙂. With next year being DS9’s 30th anniversary, I think we’ll get a big announcement then about Captain Sisko and Avery’s return to the role at either Star Trek: Las Vegas or on Star Trek Day. And we may even get an extra gift next year too from Paramount in regards to DS9, the show itself. We may find out next year that Paramount has been working on remastering it and is releasing it during it’s thirtieth anniversary. Paramount remastered First Contact without telling anybody and it was on Paramount+ last month. So they could be working on a DS9 remaster without anyone knowing.
I hope so 🙂🤞. Live long and prosper, Trekmovie 🖖.
Yeah dude I actually thought about you when I saw this news last weekend. I been saying I don’t see Avery Brooks coming back but I might be eating my words. Bringing Brooks back to play Sisko would be just as big of news when Stewart and Mulgrew announced they were coming back. So fingers crossed!
And I would love a Captain’s show! Every year they could do a season with a different captain: Archer, Kirk, Janeway, etc. That would be fun and we know Akiva Goldsman slipped in Archer’s name discussing a potential anthology show so I think a lot of these ideas are being discussed. Whether they will happen or not is a different story but a captain series show highlighting all these legacy characters would be another no-brainer.
Fingers crossed 🤞, Tiger2! And my idea for a Captain show, it’s just logical. You just look at what Kate Mulgrew has said and Alex Kurtzman has hinted at, it just makes sense. Now they might not be called what I called them.
The shows may have different titles. Like the Janeway show? Maybe 🤔 it’s the name of whatever new ship we’re getting this season on Picard? And the same goes for my Sisko show idea?
They’re giving him command of a new ship in the comics called the U.S.S. Theseus. So maybe the show that features Sisko in it will be called Star Trek: Theseus? It would be an apt title where Sisko is concerned 🙂. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, look up Theseus.
I did and that character from Greek mythology perfectly fits Captain Sisko and where he’s at when he takes command of the Theseus. There are endless possibilities for titles for the shows I’m speculating about. I just really have a feeling that we are gonna get a different show for each Captain, eventually. I even read an article with Terry Matalas where he talked about how to bring back Enterprise and now, with Scott Bakula not a part of the Quantum Leap reboot anymore, this idea of Terry Matalas’ might become a reality 🤞.
That was nice what you said about me, that you were thinking about me when you heard this about Avery Brooks. The same thing happened to me 🙂. I was thinking of you because I know you love DS9 and Avery Brooks just as much as I do 🙂. Live long and prosper, Tiger2 🖖.
Yeah I agree with all of this. I think EVERY thing is on the table at this point. They are trying to capture millions of fans who probably rewatch the old shows endlessly these days thanks to streaming and it just makes sense to revisit as many legacy characters as they can. I mean what’s crazy is every legacy captain is part of all these shows now EXCEPT Sisko and Archer. Those are the only two not appearing on any of these new shows and my guess is both of their time is coming. It may not be a captain’s show but I have to think things like that are being considered.
I’m sure I said this to you before but I have a feeling Janeway will be on Picard next season. As you said Mulgrew has been throwing a lot of hints out lately its only a matter of if and not when. Can you imagine a scene where Admiral Janeway is now talking to First Officer Seven?? That would great. Janeway would be a proud mama to see how far Seven has come! And now that Boimler and Mariner are showing up in live action next year, it only accelerates Janeway’s return IMO! ;D
And I looked up Theseus. Yes it fits Sisko for sure lol!
Naming sequel’s after the characters returning seems to be a hollywood thing IMHO. The sequel to cheers was Frasier. The sequel to Friends was Joey. Now the sequel to TNG is Picard.
Well, I’m not the most creative when it comes to titles 🙂. But I did say in one of my above replies that they could even name Sisko’s show after the new ship that he’s getting in the comics, the U.S.S. Theseus. Theseus is from Greek mythology and if you don’t know who he is, you should look him up because Theseus’ description also fits Captain Sisko perfectly. So that name is perfect for Captain Sisko’s ship and maybe even for his show?
After the success of Picard, whether you like it or not is up to you, it looks like Alex Kurtzman wants to do a show now for each of the Captains and that’s why I was playing around with what the show’s titles would look like. Those aren’t the titles they will be but they could be. But a lot of
TV shows are just one word. For example : Taxi, Cheers, Seinfeld, M.A.S.H., Bewitched, Hunter, Friends, Moonlighting, Roseanne, Coach, Benson, Soap, etc etc.
So it’s not just sequels to TV shows that are only one word. Sometimes it’s easier to remember a title if it’s only one word. And if it’s just one word, it stands a better chance of getting stuck in your head and you’ll watch it again 🙂. At least that’s my assumption anyways for why there is such a proliferation of one word named TV shows in Hollywood.
Live long and prosper, amirami 🖖.
I agree with you regarding the one word titles. But remember Trek once tried that with Enterprise and they reversed it after 2 seasons. But maybe it would work this time? Who knows. Star Trek was exhausted by that point but is revitalized now. Let’s hope it stays that way!
regarding Sisko and Theseus, it’s certainly an interesting idea. So long as they don’t expect audiences to have read the upcoming comics to understand the story. As I mentioned elsewhere comics rarely remain canon even if they are meant too. Disney threw out everything when they bought Star Wars. The Star Trek 2009 countdown comics were meant to be prime universe canon but other than Spock and the destruction of Romulus everything in ST Picard refutes it.
LLAP good Sir! 🖖
The Star Wars comics that Marvel publishes right now are considered canon by Disney. They have been canon since 2015. The old Star Wars comics before 2015, Legends I believe they call them, are not canon. But there is stuff that happens in the comics that affects the books and they’re even pulling characters from the comics into the Star Wars TV shows now.
The same thing could happen to Star Trek and it might start with this new Sisko comic because he’s got a new ship and a new crew and they wouldn’t be doing all this setup if they didn’t have an endgame in mind. Also, the Picard Countdown comic that came out a couple of years ago in 2020, which Paramount said was canon, was crucial in introducing Laris and Zhaban to Picard and showing how they came to be at Picard’s vineyard when the show began. I mean, you don’t have to read the comics. But, because they’re considered canon now, they just flesh out everything more.
And Sisko’s show may or may not deal with the Theseus because he’s probably retired by 2403 or whenever the show takes place. But there may be characters introduced in this comic that they use on the show, like Star Wars is doing now with their comics. I’m just saying that there is a reason why Paramount is introducing this ship and these characters right now at the same time it’s being rumoured that Avery Brooks is returning to Star Trek. But it’s not required reading and you’re right about that 🙂.
Live long and prosper, amirami 🖖.
I agree with 100% of everything you have said. All I am saying is till we can slingshot around the sun we don’t know the future. These corporations can be bought. Out or merge or what have you. Money dictates Hollywood and things can change in the future and comics are easier to change than media. I guess I am saying I have been burned by comics one too many times. But that’s just me. Don’t let me wreck it for you. 😁
I don’t think the comics will ever really be considered canon. That’s what the then powers that be said about the Star Trek 2009 countdown comics when they came out. But Picard and it’s own comic prequels completely refute almost everything those previous comics dictate.
The comics published after April 2019 are considered canon by Paramount. The comics published prior to 2019, such as the Countdown comics from 2009, are not canon. The article was on Trekmovie back in 2019 before the Year Five comic came out and people were wondering if that was going to be considered canon or not. Paramount said that it was canon.
That’s when they said that anything published after April 2019 is canon. That’s why the overall tone of the comics has changed. Each comic now feels like it’s a “lost chapter” or could fit right into a season of the show that it’s for. But, in the end, it’s really your choice on if you want to accept the comics or not.
I choose to accept them since Paramount, the owners of Star Trek, has said that they’re canon and that’s good enough for me 🙂. Live long and prosper, amirami 🖖.
Oops, I just saw this now. I didn’t mean to repeat myself to you moments ago. My bad!!
I hope Paramount sticks to their guns and it remains canon. But tbh they don’t have a good track record with that. The JJ crew under Paramount said the same in the 2000s. Who’s to say when the next generation after Kurtzman and crew take over they won’t change their minds again?
ignoring canon in the movies and TV is very hard because it has such a large audience. But comics have a couple thousand at best. No casual Trek fan will have or will ever see the adventures of Sisko and Data in the Comics.
side note. Little confused now Data is alive post Nemesis but I guess I’ll have to read to find out 😁
Peace and Long Life 🖖
Yes, you’re right, Star Trek comics do have a small audience. But Paramount has been publishing less of the Star Trek novels in the hopes of getting more people to read the comics. By the end of this year, there will have only been 3 Star Trek novels published. Whereas with the comics, there will have been almost 20 comics published this year, not including graphic novels.
See the vast difference 🙂. Because they made the comics canon in 2019, Paramount wants more eyes on the comics. But, like we already said, it’s not required reading 🙂. On a side note, the new comic with Captain Sisko in it takes place in 2378, one year before Nemesis.
That’s how Data’s alive because Nemesis hasn’t happened yet.
Live long and prosper, amirami 🖖
Ahh so Sisko comes back pre nemesis? Interesting. Well I hope you are right about the comics. Tbh I’m going to bide my time and see. But if you are right down the line I will buy a whole bunch and start reading.
Alwaya, always, always up for some DS9! Also, I will bet you credits to navy beans that Vic Fontaine shows up on LDS.
Hee! Love the shout-out to “Catspaw”!
Love that expression… What was the officer’s name, Lasalle?
OH! I never even thought of that! Vic would be the PERFECT character to show up! He fits in perfectly with the whole these of LDS.
Folks say the Avery Brooks won’t come back. I don’t think that’s accurate. The person in the media who knows him best is Cirroc Lofton and he’s made it clear that Brooks would return to Trek. I think he’s no different then all the other more prominent actors in the franchise. They want meaty roles and not cameos. Shatner, Stewart, and Mulgrew have all said this. It’s just that Brooks no longer makes public appearances. But people like Lofton and Ira Steven Behr have said Avery Brooks is still talking to them about DS9’s legacy. He was involved behind the scenes with the documentary. He just said he didn’t have anything new to say. Give him a great story and I think he will return.
Exactly, Eric 🙂! I’ve said on here numerous times about how Cirroc has stated that Avery still wants to act and it’s Hollywood that turned it’s back on Avery. But everyone on here keeps saying that he’s retired. I choose to believe Cirroc Lofton over what anyone on here has to say because Cirroc still visits Avery and he has dinner on Sunday nights, he said on his podcast, with Avery and his wife.
So until Avery Brooks himself actually says that he’s retired, I choose to keep believing that he will return some day, just like Jake and Kasidy were waiting for Captain Sisko to return from the Wormhole one day 🙂. And that return has started with that new Star Trek comic coming out in October that features Captain Sisko returning from the Wormhole. We’ll probably get an announcement about Avery Brooks returning to play Benjamin Sisko next year since that’ll be the 30th anniversary of DS9 and I can’t think of a better time to announce the return of Avery Brooks and Benjamin Sisko back to Star Trek, can you 🙂? Live long and prosper, Eric 🖖.
I agree. And fill up his suitcase with Benjamins if that is what it takes!
Absolutely 🙂👍! Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖.
They could start bringin DS9 back by remastering it.
I’ll always secretly hope that the DS9/VOY remaster project announcement is just around the corner. I can’t imagine it not happening eventually, even if they’re just waiting it out until AI upscaling is virtually flawless or something (if that’s even possible, I don’t know these things).
Yea, I think a couple more more years of the AI upscaling to mature, and we will finally get it in HD.
Why would they do that when the TNG remaster was a profit failure?
Nah, sure the BR’s didn’t make as much $ and they had hoped, but the investment has easily paid off by now with streaming, broadcast, etc. But they aren’t going that overly expensive production route again given the AI remastering technology is getting close to providing a software-based solution within the next couple of years where they will be able to HD remaster the series at an equivalent level of quality to TNG HD, but at a fraction of the cost.
They will get around to doing this because the have to preserve their catalog investment in DS9 and Voyager for years to come. But it’s going to be a software solution.
And that was 10 years ago. 10 years before, DVDs with full seasons were the newest thing after years of expensive VHS in low quality with only 2 episodes.
Time has passed on and there should be a cheaper way to achieve better quality.
That was 10 years ago. Other, newer shows aren’t also bought on BR, nevertheless they make profit of it.
It may happen, DaveCGN. Next year is the 30th anniversary of DS9 so they could be working on remastering it right now. They had a remastered First Contact on Paramount+ last month and nobody knew about that or that Paramount was working on remastering it. So it’s possible that Paramount could be working on DS9 right now in order to have it done in time for it’s 30th anniversary.
I hope 🤞 🙂. Live long and prosper, DaveCGN 🖖.
Considering that the cost of remastering DS9 and VOY combined is the cost of basically two episodes of Discovery, it would be really annoying if they did not do it at some point.
Agree 100%. It is so annoying watching DS9 on SD on Netflix. Until season 6 it looks shit
What’s the point of that?
What’s the point of showing them in almost VHS-low-quality on HD viewscreens which demand higher and higher quality?
TOS and TNG got their remastering and revival. DS9 and VOY are the next thing.
It’s really unconscionable that they haven’t done that yet. Voyager, too. I get it’s expensive, but these are assets which need to be future-proofed. They’ll pay for themselves handily over time.
Never mind DS9, get Ensign Ro back! I really wanted Michelle Forbes to sign up for the long term on the Enterprise.
I still remember being bummed out that that didn’t happen.
My advice to Kurtzman:
Stop farting around with the Starfleet Academy and Section 31 series concepts, and give us a DS9 follow-on series that has at least has Sisko, Kira, Jake, Bashir and Quark. And find a way to bring Jadzia Dax back (how about an ep where Ezri Dax is dying and a clone of Jadzia is found in storage and we get Jadzia back). And have Leeta back, but have her now as a career Starfleet officer — update the sex symbol character to a professional female officer that is more consistent with the Star Trek of today.
They need to get off their buttts and make this happen ASAP as these actors are not getting any younger. Section 31 and Academy should be pushed back so that we get this soon.
I’m one who believes DS9 is at the top of any list for best Trek productions, but I’m not hot for anything that reeks of fan service or the multiverse trope for DS9. If we’re going to revisit another legacy location, let’s at least give continuity its due. Sisko is gone. Jadzia is dead. Odo is really liking life in the Great Link. Leave him there. Kira has likely ascended to some higher level of secular governance on Bajor. There’s no reason to shoehorn Leeta into a Starfleet uniform, there is plenty of opportunity for her to have become a civilian professional or leader as well….so, how is a story dealing with resurgent Cardasia or the Dominion a horrible thing, keeping it from rounding up the gang for one last ride across the cosmos? That’s what season three of Picard is shaping up to be. Will I watch that? Yeah, but I’m not feeling too good about it.
I hear you, but as someone else pointed out, the key here would be to bring Ira back and let him run with it. I would trust him to give us a good new series that is follow-on to DS9 that is not just fan service.
However, if Kurtzman says, “hey Akiva, give me a DS9 2.0 concept,” then I immediately start worrying.
And that’s literally Kurtzman’s problem. Every single person he has hired to produce and wring his shows have been bad at their jobs. Since he is likely here for another 4 years at least his best maneuver would be to turn over the hiring reigns to someone who knows, you know, actual imaginative people who can create good satisfying shows in the Trek world without stepping all over what came before.
Cool story bro
LOL, whatever, dude.
I can’t agree. I’m no fan of the current generation as a whole. I kinda can’t even watch DISCO at this point. I’ll only tune into PIC because of the TNG cast and because like TNGs season 3 I hope they grow the beard. But LD is fun if not a little ridiculous. Prodigy is fun and great for me even if it is meant for Kids. And SNW? There hasn’t been a Trek show with such a solid first season since TOS, appropriately.
I get the feeling that there are fans who are starving and are confusing mediocrity for greatness because of that. We went for so very long without a Trek show, then comes the horrid Star Trek Discovery to lower expectations so when the other shows come and are not quite as bad people are just expecting hot garbage and whey they don’t get it think it’s way better than it truly is. When starving a saltine can be confused for a Ritz.
I do think their best effort has been Prodigy. It feels like it really wasn’t made for kids, to be honest. And DS9, Voy and Enterprise all had WAY better first seasons than SNW.
“…Voy and Enterprise all had WAY better first seasons than SNW”
Lol, and pigs can fly now.
The idea that SNW had better first seasons that the three I mentioned is in the LOL flying pigs category. At least they didn’t crap all over their source material.
I don’t think Avery Brooks wants to do a replay of DS9. If he returns, it will more than likely be to his own show. His return from the Wormhole is being told in a new Star Trek comic and that’s probably so they don’t have to touch on how he returned from the Wormhole on screen and the comics are considered canon now by Paramount since April 2019. If we get a Benjamin Sisko Star Trek show, it may feature the ship that he’s the Captain of in the new comic, which is the U.S.S.Theseus.
It sounded like the one and only time that we’ll get to see DS9 is on Lower Decks and we’ll get to see a couple characters in Picard season 3 besides just Worf, of course. Also, I don’t think the other female-led show that Alex Kurtzman and crew are working on is Section 31. Yes, I think one show is the Academy show with Tilly. But I think the other one is the Janeway show that’s been hinted at a lot lately.
That would feature a female lead and I also think that Seven is gonna go to that show after Picard ends, if she doesn’t die on Picard that is 🙂. Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖
Hi Johnny, I am just curious if you personally know Avery or any of his friends or family? I ask this because I’ve noticed in a lot of your comments you come across like you have some inside knowledge of what he wants to do on a new Star Trek series?
I would also point out that a Kira-led DS9, where she is now the head of DS9, and Sisko is a recurring character (say 3 eps per season), would check all of the boxes in terms of the female lead, plus bringing a much older Brooks back, who may not want the workload of a full series, but does want to return.
The “Star Trek: Sisko” sort of approach doesn’t get me all that excited. I would want the show to be tied to DS9. And although they claim the comics are canon, I have no doubt that they wouldn’t worry to much about overriding any of that if needed to support a new live action series.
Nope, I’m not personally connected to Avery, I wish I was 🙂. But I listen to Cirroc’s podcast and he basically fills everybody in on what’s going on with Avery on there. Plus these actors who played these legendary Captains back in the ’90s are just not gonna come back for a rehash of the same thing. What would they even do with DS9 now that’s not a rehash of the original show?
That show covered every topic it could over it’s seven year course so what’s left? It’s like Alex Kurtzman said above “they don’t want to do a rehash of DS9. If they can come up with an original idea, then they would touch on it”. So me having a personal connection with Avery Brooks or not has nothing to do with my comments. It has to do with not repeating what they’ve already done.
That’s why Sir Patrick Stewart, when he signed on to Picard, said that he did not want to do a TNG-redo. He wanted Picard to be different from TNG. I’m pretty sure the amazing actor that Avery Brooks is would probably want to do the same thing with Captain Sisko. Considering Avery’s age, Captain Sisko would probably be retired so he would have no reason to go to DS9, unless the story warranted it.
Much like Picard had no reason to go to the Enterprise-E during the first two seasons of his show. It’s only logical, One Lion. Putting Sisko on DS9 for no reason is just fan service. As for Nana, I’m more than happy to see her return.
But does she want to return? Nana’s life is a lot different than it was in the ’90s and she’s older now herself. I think if they came up with a Captain Kira show it might entice her to come back and they give her her own starship. But once again I don’t see her coming back to play Kira if she’s only on the station still because then it would be a rehash of what she already did.
The only way to really bring DS9 back would be to bring in all new characters and I’m not sure if Alex Kurtzman wants to do that. Maybe, who knows? If you read Alex Kurtzman’s words above, the way he talks about DS9 being on Lower Decks, it’s kinda final sounding, like we’re only gonna see DS9 on Lower Decks and that’s the last time that we’ll see her. But that’s just the way I inferred things.
Maybe you inferr things differently? So, no, I don’t have a personal connection to Avery but I know how magnificent of an actor he is. All you have to do is watch A Man Called Hawk to know that Avery is not going to just return for a cameo. It would have to really be something that he could sink his teeth into.
But this is just my opinion 🙂.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖.
You make some good points. I think we would both agree that while Stewart originally wanted STP to be different from TNG, we’ll that has been a mixed bag so far, and so now the third season is deviating from that approach and is definitely going more in the fan service direction with a TNG reunion and with most of Picard’s S1 and S2 crew “jettisoned” — so Stewart’s idea kind of flopped and now we are sort of getting TNG again, which is not what he was originally intending for STP to be about.
So assuming Picard S3 is as great as well all hope, well that would prove Patrick Stewart largely wrong on his original desires for STP — and that would highlight why a sequel series to DS9 might be better than some new adventure for Sisko since it.
Hopefully Brooks is paying attention to this and is noting how Stewart’s show, despite it’s best intentions to do something new, ended up falling back to a sequel/reunion season. “Star Trek: Sisko” I am just not all that excited about. I think it’s got to at least have Kira, Jake and Bashir on it. Just my personal opinion though.
Are you being silly now, One Lion? Of course Jake would be there. And Kasidy and the daughter that Kasidy gave birth to after he went into the Wormhole, she’d be there too. And it doesn’t have to be called Star Trek: Sisko.
They can call it Star Trek: Theseus after the new ship he’s going to be commanding in the comics. If you don’t know who Theseus was in Greek mythology, I suggest you look him up because I did and that name applies perfectly to Captain Sisko. There’s all types of stories they can do with Benjamin Sisko. He’s Benjamin Sisko, a legend unto himself.
Besides they have time before they get to Sisko’s show. The Janeway one is the most likely choice for the next 25th century show. And I didn’t say we might not see people from DS9, One Lion. I said that we wouldn’t see DS9. I definitely would expect Ezri to show up because of Dax’s connection to Sisko.
I think Bashir’s gonna be in Picard season 3 now more than ever because of what Terry Matalas said over the weekend. He said that Worf’s actions during the Dominion War are going to play a big part in season 3 of Picard. I have a funny feeling that the next season of Picard might be bringing back the Quickening. And that’s why I think we’ll see Bashir next year on Picard.
You gotta use your imagination, One Lion 🙂😄. Don’t just think so rigidly 🙂.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖.
I like your deduction on the Quickening regarding Worf and Bashir on S3 — that fits pretty well with what we are hearing.
Johnny, it’s not so much me being rigid as it is seeing what worked on Picard — the new directions for Picard didn’t work that well, so they are going TNG reunion instead. They should learn from that regarding DS9 hopefully. That’s all I’m saying.
BTW, I am not a big Ezri fan though — I miss Jadzia. Given Data, Spock, Picard and others got new life, they should find a way to bring her back and make that central to the first couple of eps in the new DS9 series.
Also, I am not a huge Janeway fan, but I get that I am in the minority on that, and that is fine. Honestly, the Janeway series possibility and the Academy series possibility don’t get me very excited. I would much rather that we either get a Seven-led series, a Yeoh Section 31 series or a DS9 2.0 series.
Well, Seven will probably be on the Janeway show, One Lion. The Janeway show will probably be named after whatever the new ship’s name is in season 3 of Picard and that will be the show that has Janeway and Seven on it. As long as Seven lives, though. Because Jeri Ryan has hinted that she may die in Picard season 3.
I don’t know if she was making a joke or not but she did mention earlier this year that Seven might not survive season 3 of Picard. If they are dealing with the return of the Quickening next year, then there’s probably an even higher chance that Seven might not make it. And Terry Matalas has also hinted that there might be a high body count next season on Picard. That was in one of his tweets.
But if Seven does survive Picard season 3, then she will more than likely go with Admiral Janeway onto whatever live action show she’s gonna be on. Thank you for telling me that I had some good thinking going on in regards to the Quickening coming back. It’s just a feeling I have but it’s getting stronger the more I hear about Picard season 3. Also, about Dax, it doesn’t have to be Ezri that we see in the Sisko show.
It can be a whole new Dax. Ezri could’ve gotten injured or was killed during the Synth attack on Mars and they had to find a replacement for the symbiote so we could get a new Dax. I can’t think of a logical way to bring back Jadzia. Her neck was snapped by Gul Dukat and then Worf ejected her body into the heart of a sun so that she could go to Sto-Vo-Kor.
Now Spock was on Genesis so he still had a physical body to come back to. Picard died and had his mind uploaded into the body of a Golem android but he still had a physical body. Jadzia has no physical body so there’s nothing for her to return to. But she still lives on in the symbiote so she’s not really gone.
A lot of people love Jadzia Dax. Terry Farrell wanted to leave DS9 and go do Becker and that’s why Jadzia had to be killed off. I know it’s tough to lose a character you love. I love Captain Kirk and I had to watch him die in Generations and there’s still a physical body for him around and stupid Paramount still doesn’t want to bring him back!
And that was mostly because Paramount wanted to stick it to William Shatner because of how much money he wanted for Generations 😄. And look at Captain Sisko, I love him too. He’s another one of my favorite characters. I had to wait 23 years for them to finally tell the story of his return from the Wormhole and in the story that’s in the comic, since it’s set in 2378, it’s only been 3 years in Star Trek time and in reality it’s been 23 years 😄.
So, trust me, I know it’s hard to lose a character you’re invested in and that you love and you want them back more than anything. As long as we get a Dax, speaking for myself, I’ll be happy. Because a piece of Jadzia will always be in that symbiote, know what I mean? It’s also okay not to be the biggest Janeway fan.
I completely understand that. But that may be what’s coming next. The Section 31 show needs Michelle Yeoh and she’s doing voice work for Avatar 3 -5 right now and then she’s got a ton of movies afterwards. They should just turn the Section 31 thing into three 2 hour movies and put them on Paramount+, like the Ceti Alpha V thing they’ve been working on for a long time that’s now going to be a podcast.
Because Michelle Yeoh is just so super busy for the foreseeable future. I don’t see where she would find the time to shoot a 10 episode show on top of her busy schedule. The Section 31 thing just seems futile to me. But maybe it might happen, who knows 🙂?
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖.
All reasonable comments. The only disagreement I would have with you on these remarks is that I don’t think either Ryan or Mulgrew would want to work together on a multi-year series again. Sure, superficially, it appears that they get along now, but that doesn’t mean that either wants to work every day with each other. They may say the right things on this in public, but I have serious doubts that either would want to do this.
Can I prove this. No. Do I suspect it’s likely. Yes.
I doubt it. It look like they buried the hachet years ago. It’s not a Takei/Shatner situation. ;)
But here is what it comes down to. I am generally a forgiving person myself and I have made up with some people who I perceived as having F’d me over in some way years back. Am I comfortable and cordial having dinner or spending a bit of time with these people, sure. Would I wanna work with them on 60 hour work weeks for five months every year… no way! I think you are ignoring basic human nature here.
This happens in Hollywood ALL the time. The fact most people didn’t even know there was an issue between the actors until after the show ended is also pretty common because actors just power through. I have no doubt if Janeway and Seven was on a show together they would do it because it’s been 20 years and they hashed out their issues even if they aren’t besties. If they are both that interested in doing a live action show full time at least.
But per usual, all of this is nothing more than huge hypothetical. I don’t see them on the same show again full time unless it’s a Voyager revival or something and it’s the last thing I would want personally (but of course will still watch the hell out of it lol). At BEST if Seven is given a show Janeway might show up in a few episodes a season so I think that would be more than fine even if they still didn’t like each other.
I agree with you, One Line, that Jeri Ryan did have bad times behind the scenes of Voyager. But I read an interview with Kate Mulgrew back in 2015 where she said that she took responsibility for her actions. She also said, in the same interview, that she apologized profusely to Jeri Ryan for what happened and that Ms.Ryan accepted her apology. Now, you may ask yourself, how do we know that she accepted the apology?
I’ll explain that right now. Robert Beltran played the mediator between Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan on the Voyager set and he even stated at conventions how bad it got behind the scenes. He said, in 2019, during a Voyager panel that he himself would never return for a Voyager reunion because of everything that took place behind the scenes on that show. But look who’s back now on Prodigy 🙂?
If Ms.Mulgrew didn’t apologize to Ms.Ryan for her actions back on Voyager and if Jeri didn’t accept it, then I don’t think Robert Beltran would’ve agreed to return to play Chakotay on Prodigy, would he? So I think Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan have buried the hatchet. But what better way to prove that then by doing another show together? It all depends, though, on if she survives Picard season 3.
Because, if the Quickening is back, then I think that it has mutated into a super sized version of the virus. That could be really bad for anyone who comes into contact with it. The Picard show does not shy away from death, that’s for sure. A Captain Seven show would all hinge on if Jeri Ryan wanted to commit to doing another show for another three years.
And from everything that I’ve read from her or heard her say, she feels like the Picard show also represents a conclusion to Seven’s story arc as well. There’s a beginning, a middle, and an ending. I’d like to see Seven continue on myself. But we don’t know anything about what’s coming in Picard season 3 yet so let’s not count our chickens before they hatch 🐣🙂.
If she does survive, then I think it more than likely that she’ll be on whatever show that Janeway’s gonna be on. Call it a hunch 🙂.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖
Hi Johnny. thanks for that background. Please see my response to Tiger2, as it also covers my response to some of your remarks above.
But also you are correct in that if she dies in this season then this whole discussion is irrelevant.
I understand where you’re coming from, One Lion, but I seriously doubt they work 60 hour work weeks, especially since there’s only 10 episodes in a season now, not 26 anymore. Plus, if Seven is the lead in the show and Janeway is more of the co-star, then that would mean that Janeway would have less screen time than Seven would so why couldn’t they make that work? They’re both professionals. Or it could be vice versa and Kate Mulgrew could be the star again and Jeri Ryan the co-star and then she would have less screen time with Ms.Mulgrew.
There are ways to make it work. It’s not an impossibility. And the money will always dictate an actor’s actions. If they throw enough money at these two women, they will put aside their differences, especially since the film time for these new shows is a lot different than the old ones.
And if they do still have a problem with each other, then they can do what they did with Al Pacino and Robert De Niro in Heat. Neither one of them filmed that diner scene in the movie at the same time with each other. They weren’t face to face but they made it look like they were and this was 1995. If they could do that back then, then imagine what they can do today without these two actresses actually being near each other and if they still had a problem with each which I don’t think they do but who knows, right?
And, you’re right, if Seven doesn’t survive Picard season 3 than this whole conversation is moot 🙂.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖
Johnny, like many, you were suckered in believing an urban legend on the making of Heat, my friend. De Niro and Pacino did in fact film that classic scene together. They did not rehearse the scene at all though and just went with it creatively as great actors do (and BTW, they have been friends since the 1960’s). That’s why it’s one of the greatest scenes in cinema of all time, and is also why I have the 4K Blu-Ray Special Ddition on advance order to be one of the first movies I am going to watch on my just delivered 4K projector. And I’ve also preordered the novel, Heat 2, on Audible. I am a huge fan of that movie. (BTW, I highly recommend the documentary autobiographical film, “Val,” about Val Kilmer’s life)
Regarding Ryan and Mulgrew, OK, if Ryan is the lead, with Mulgrew supporting, I could see that potentially working. I would be surprised though if Ryan would sign onto a multi-year show in which she was a supporting character to Mulgrew — sure, they are professionals, but to commit to that situation for multiple years…well, you know what they say: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
PS: You are right though regarding if enough $$ is offered for this — that can have a way of changing actors minds, especially aging actors who might feel this is their last chance at a big payday, and have kids and grandkids to support. But I would not be surprised if it would take more cash than expected to bring them together on a multi-year series given what I have covered here.
I am a huge fan of that movie myself and if I was “suckered”, as you so eloquently put it, then that’s a surprise to me because I read about this from the director of Heat himself, Michael Mann. He talked about having to film that scene with each actor separately. I’ve also seen the footage online of Al Pacino sitting in the booth and across from him was nobody but the camera. And then Robert De Niro came in and I saw Al Pacino leaving and as he left, they took his microphone off of him and De Niro sat on his side of the diner table with no Pacino across from him.
I also saw this footage when it was shown on Entertainment Tonight and Access Hollywood. They showed it when they were celebrating Heat’s 20th anniversary. So I’ll believe my eyes, my friend, and what Michael Mann said and the footage that was shown on Entertainment Tonight and Access Hollywood over the word of a person whom I’ve never met, if you don’t mind, One Lion 🙂. I also have the book coming, Heat 2, and the book is a prequel, not a sequel, and I’ve got Heat on DVD and Blu Ray also and that’s enough for me.
I’m a big Michael Mann fan myself and have been since the movie Thief came out back in the ’80s. It’s sad what’s going on with Val Kilmer. He has trouble speaking because he had throat cancer. His daughter says he’s doing fine, though.
And I’m glad to hear that 🙂. I:ll look up that documentary about Val Kilmer, thanks 👍! I understand your point about Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens 🙂.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖
No, it is unequivocally a scene with both of them in it. What happenned was that after Heat was released, there were many theories about that sequence with the reasoning being that De Niro and Pacino did not shoot for the scene together because we don’t ‘see’ them together. This is false, and is a result of Mann’s directing style for that scene. Also the coffee scene was not rehearsed because De Niro wanted it to be organic.
If you want proof, then to go to Youtube and watch the Christopher Nolan session with Mann, De Niro and Pacino, starting at about 17 minute mark. Search in Youtube for: “Robert De Niro, Al Pacino and Michael Mann Reflect On 20 Years Of ‘Heat’ With Christopher Nolan”
There is also a still photo in an old Vanity Fair of them both at the table together during filming, and Mann also had a third camera filming both of them, but he did not use any of the footage from that camera.
So yea, that urban legend has been demystified. They filmed the scene with them together at the table…fact…case closed.
BTW, your info is a little wrong on the Heat 2 novel. It is both a prequel and a sequel with alternating chapters (think Godfather Part II).
Also, when you watch the Kilmer autobio film, Val, you will see that he is doing OK despite losing his voice (as you mention his daughter says) — it’s on Amazon Prime.
Man, you get so excited about being right, don’t you? You must be told that you’re wrong all the time a lot. As for the Heat panel, I’ll watch it. I like Christopher Nolan a lot so it should prove interesting.
Also, the listing on Amazon for the Heat 2 novel says it’s a prequel that is set in 1989 but also takes place after the movie because there’s a manhunt going on for Val Kilmer’s character. I was just going by what I read six months ago because that’s when I pre-ordered the book back in March. Maybe that’s why Michael Mann has a co-author on the book? Mann writes the past story and the co-author writes the present?
That’ll be interesting if it’s true. I just looked it up and the description did change. It covers 1988-2000. That’s a lot of time and the book’s only 480 pages.
Before when I pre-ordered it, it was 600 pages long it said in the description. It comes out in two weeks. Good, that’ll give me something to read during these heat waves that are going on where I live 🙂. And I already said in my last message that Val Kilmer’s daughter said that he’s doing okay and I said that I was glad to hear that.
And, once again, I will check out that movie because I do have Amazon Prime, thanks 👍.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖
Dude, what’s with getting all personal with me here? I thought you and I had gotten past this, but yesterday in another post you are making snide remarks about my rigid thinking, and now today you are insulting me that I must get told I am wrong a lot in my personal life? WTF?
Heat is one of my fav movies of all time, and I have watched and read nearly everything ever produced on it, and have a signed Val Kilmer Heat movie poster even. So I was excited you brought it up in that I could share my knowledge on it, including the Heat 2 book, which I have been following the developments on for a long time.
I am politely asking for an apology here, otherwise I recommend we go back ignoring each other’s posts if you can’t help yourself concerning these snide personal quips that you keep including in our conversations?
First of all the comment was from yesterday, not today. And I’ll give you an apology once you give me an apology. You told me I got “suckered”, like I’m some type of fool or an idiot who gets taken advantage of a lot. Re-read your last two replies to me.
If you don’t think you were being snide or slick with me, then, yeah, we should stop talking again. But, if you can see where you went wrong in how you spoke to me and offer an apology, then I will apologize for what I said. Capisce?
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖
That is not equivalent. I said that it was an urban legend that suckered many people into believing it, you included. But I apologize if this came across as insulting to you, but my intention was to poke fun at the urban legend on that which persists to this day. Sorry.
You insulted me personally by suggesting I must have people in my personal life telling me that I am wrong all the time. That’s a direct and personal type of insult that reflects on my character, those around me, and my integrity.
Capish, bubbie? :-)
Yup, and you implied that I got suckered and I took that personally because I deserve respect and I felt disrespected, just like you just did, so I took that as a personal attack against me. But you apologized so I’ll apologize. I’m sorry for getting slick 🙂. One final thing about Heat, I think that’s cool that you have a movie poster autographed by Val Kilmer.
I’d like to have a poster that was signed by both Robert De Niro and Al Pacino myself. That would be awesome! But I’m sure that’s probably something very expensive to come by. And I hope the book lives up to the movie.
I have my doubts now because the book, in print, is only 480 pages. I think there’s going to be a lot of jumping back and forth and I think it’s gonna make the book confusing. I hope not 🤞 but there is a reason why Michael Mann is doing the sequel to Heat as a book and not a movie, especially since he said that he got this idea for a sequel to Heat not too long after he did the first movie. Sorry, that was two things about Heat, One Lion 🙂.
Live long and prosper, One Lion 🖖.
Yea, I am also nervous that the book won’t be great — hoping for the best. I suspect if the book it a hit, we might then get a movie…we’ll see.
PS: Yea, a movie poster signed by all three would be great. I think Pacino and De Niro are hard autographs to get though. Also, I have a Tombstone movie photo of Val as Doc Holiday that he signed.
…Ebay has some signed movie posters by De Niro, Pacino and Val — about $1000 to $4000 is the going rate depending on quality. etc. Some clown is trying to get $850 for a Tom Seizmore signed Heat poster…yea, sure dude, good luck with that. Lol
I agree with all of this. I think all their issues have been resolved years ago once they got away from the show and Mulgrew could see the person she was. But I don’t see them being on the same show full time anyway unless we are discussing a Voyager revival and I really hope not.
There was an article on here just a few weeks ago that talked about how Kate Mulgrew thinks the time is right for a Voyager reunion so if it’s something that’s being mentioned to reporters by her then, obviously, someone from Alex Kurtzman’s camp is talking to her about it. But, once again, I believe we’re getting a Star Trek: Janeway show that is in the vein of Star Trek: Picard and that will probably serve as a Voyager reunion as well. Will Seven be a part of it? I don’t know.
Jeri Ryan and Terry Matalas have both mentioned that Seven might not survive Picard season 3 so Seven’s fate might already be determined, especially if the Quickening is returning, which I think it is. Also, Jeri Ryan has said in interviews that she sees Seven’s story on Picard as a complete story. Seven might not be going anywhere after Picard’s done. But, if she was, then it only makes sense that they would put Seven in whatever the Voyager reunion project is and that’s all I’m saying.
Just a month ago, Tiger2, you were all set and ready to see a Janeway show or a Voyager reunion and now you say you don’t want to see one? I don’t know what changed your mind but my opinions stay the same and I still believe that we’re gonna get a Picard-style show for all the Captains, eventually. Live long and prosper, Tiger2 🖖
A Janeway show and a Voyager reunion are two different things like the Picard show and TNG is! I mean Prodigy is also a Janeway show, but she’s not back on the Voyager with Chakotay and Tuvok either. That’s all I mean. I have no issues seeing her or any of the characters again, I just don’t want it to be a reboot of Voyager itself, but sure it’s going to have elements of that show just by her presence alone.
I would love a Janeway show as her as an Admiral but still in the Alpha Quadrant and dealing with new characters. I would expect some Voyager characters to show up just like all the TNG characters showing up in Picard, but not a total rehash either.
But I guess the issue is how people define the word ‘reunion’. Some people it just means seeing all the same characters in a room together which I’m OK with. But if it meant everyone is now basically doing the same thing as before and all on the same ship 20 years later, then no, that’s not what I want. Notice how Patrick Stewart in interviews for season 3 keeps stressing its not a TNG reunion show. He seems to mean what I mean that they will be together but the characters will have grown and live different lives, which we already saw that in season one with Riker and Troi. So I think that was perfectly done and can’t wait to see more of it with the others.
But I have NO doubt they are thinking of another Voyager show. I been saying this forever, everything is probably on the table. We now got a TNG revival season, so I have no doubt if that blows the ratings (or whatever) through the roof that will open up other ideas with a reboot of Voyager, DS9, TOS, etc. Even Enterprise. It doesn’t mean any of it will happen but of course it’s probably all being considered. Frankly I hope none of it happens (EXCEPT Enterprise because it never got a real send off). I want to see the characters again but in a new life and place. ie, to see them grow, not stagnant. When the TOS movies had the same characters on the Enterprise doing the exact same jobs 20 years later that’s the very definition of stagnation. We all understand why it was done of course, but it was very unrealistic at the same time.
So I hope you get what I mean? I LOVE seeing all the characters back, I have no issues with that. But I also don’t want a repeat of what we already got 20, 30, 50 years ago either. Do something new and interesting with them and to their credit they ARE doing that for the most part.
As far as Seven being done, yeah they seem all over the place lol. Matalas says Seven might be done but he’s also stated several times he would love to see a Seven/Raffi spin off show. So would Jeri Ryan. Maybe they will give her ‘closure’ in the season but I doubt that means killing her off. They know it will not only upset fans it will kill any potential appearances for one of the most popular characters in the franchise. Maybe they will do it but I doubt it. There will probably be several more post-Nemesis shows in the next few years, it would be ridiculous to kill off some of your biggest legacy characters and they already killed off a lot of those lol. But none of them have been MAIN characters either except Data but he was already dead anyway.
I get your points, Tiger2. I should’ve probably been more clear because I think when Kate Mulgrew mentioned about a Voyager reunion, sorry about that, I think she was thinking more the same thing as you. We’re gonna see the characters and where they’re at in this point in their life, like the Picard show. I don’t want to see stagnation myself 🙂.
But it’s funny you mention the TOS movies getting stagnant and they never did for me. I just knew that there were multiple missions that the Enterprise went out on with Captain Kirk at the helm and he was the only one I wanted to see as the Captain of the Enterprise, even when he was an Admiral 🙂. Spock and McCoy stayed out of loyalty and friendship to Captain Kirk. The Enterprise was Scotty’s true love so he was never leaving her anyways.
Uhura did leave for a little while but I can’t recall where she went to and Chekov went to Starfleet Security which I thought was strange because he never showed an interest in security before. And Sulu became Captain of the Excelsior. Spock became Captain of the Enterprise. A lot happened in six movies, Tiger2 🙂.
The characters growed but the reason why they always came back to the Enterprise is because she’s their home. The Enterprise is where their hearts lie at. So that’s why they always came back. I don’t see that as stagnation because they became a family and they wanted to be together.
That’s what friendship is about – building bonds that can last a lifetime 🙂. So I don’t see the TOS movies as being stagnant. About Seven, I don’t want her to die either but Terry Matalas did tweet out that we should expect a high body count in Picard season 3. That’s why I think Seven might not make it.
But we’ll just play it by ear for now until Picard season 3 comes out 🙂.
Live long and prosper, Tiger2 🖖
Yeah I think if they were to do a Janeway show it would be different. I don’t think it would be different in the way Picard was. I think Janeway will still very much be part of Starfleet and they may even come up with a way they have to send her back to the Delta Quadrant just like we’re seeing in Prodigy now. So I think it’s fine to have elements of Voyager of course and find ways to get some of the other characters back, but not a redux like the way the TOS movies did mostly.
As far as the TOS movies, I don’t really disagree. Obviously I get it. For most fans TOS are those characters on the Enterprise. You can’t mess with that formula too much. But same time it is a LITTLE ridiculous. Take Spock, his entire career has been serving on that ship. I always describe Spock as the Kobe Bryant of Star Trek lol. That’s where he started his career and mostly ended it, at least as a Starfleet officer. Now of course by TNG we saw him in a totally different place which was great to see. But he was on the Enterprise for nearly 40 years and was never even its captain even though he was a freaking captain lol. Starfleet would’ve been begging Spock to lead his own ship, especially with someone with so much experience. Instead he was on a ship that is so old they were going to decommission it in TSFS.
But of course as you said, it’s their home so you can justify it, its just not realistic even within the universe of Star Trek itself. Most of these officers go on to at least a few ships in their careers. And of course TOS was never as developed as the other shows meaning we never got those ‘where is my career going’ discussions like you got on TNG, DS9, etc. You would think Chekhov, Scotty and Uhura decided they were assigned to the Enterprise for life once they got there.
Again, it’s fine, I wouldn’t want it a different way either. The TNG and TOS movies were extensions of the shows so that was the expectation. But I think as Picard showed once too much time has passed then it just feels like a regress. If it HASN’T been 20 years but more like 3-5 years then OK it would be easier to swallow to have a Voyager or TNG redux. At least most of them on the ship. But after awhile it does feel ridiculous.
I know for some people who may know my handle and see me push for legacy characters in these shows and films my posts may come off contradictory. But it’s not, I have no issues seeing old characters, just as long as you are taking them to new places or experiences. I think what they did putting Seven of Nine in Picard was absolutely brilliant! They could’ve put Riker or Geordi in her role but instead put in a legacy character that has never interacted with him before. We got to see a different dynamic between two characters we love. That’s what they should be doing MORE of.
That’s why it was cool to see Worf on DS9. It was great to see that character in a different environment. Do more things like that with these characters in the future. Have Kira working with Janeway for some reason. Bashir is now working on a colony with Tuvok and Barclay. There are sooo many possibilities now. Just don’t go for the ‘obvious’ route all the time with these characters. That’s why sequels are always better IMO. And with so much time between classic Trek and modern Trek you can do a lot more with them you probably couldn’t back then.
But I never been into redoing any of the shows. It just doesn’t interest me. I was only interested in the Pike show because we never saw those adventures and it would be fun to see what Spock was like pre-TOS. But I have ZERO interest in doing another TOS show. None. So it will probably be made lol. But I think it’s a possibility for all of the old shows on some level now because nostalgia is the in thing and that’s always been true for Star Trek.
But if you just want to reboot TOS and TNG, that’s fine too. But I rather they didn’t.
See, Tiger2, the thing is when the TOS movies were made, Gene Roddenberry still had control over them. That’s why him and Nicholas Meyer butted heads, fiercely! Nicholas Meyer wanted to take the TOS characters in one direction and Gene Roddenberry kept saying no. So people were only allowed to do so much with those characters before Gene stepped in and said that they went too far.
All the stuff you like about Star Trek came after Gene passed away. I just read an article that had an interview with Ron Moore in it and he said that when he first approached Gene about doing the episode “Family” for TNG, Gene rejected his idea because Captain Picard is supposed to be on the Enterprise and warping off to strange new worlds, not down on Earth in a vineyard drinking wine. And just so you know “Family” is one of my top five episodes of TNG. My point is this, you’re talking about two different eras when it comes to the TOS movies and the Star Trek shows of today.
Paramount now owns Star Trek. They didn’t back then. Gene only allowed people to play in his sandbox and with his characters, but only if they put them back the way they found them. So I think it’s unfair to compare the TOS movies to the more modern era of Star Trek because who knows what Star Trek would’ve been like in the ’90s if Gene lived?
He did not like the concept for DS9 and I read about that in a two book set called The Fifty Year Mission. Star Trek’s original intent was to hold a mirror up to our society. It was a different morality play every week. In the original Star Trek show, there were not enough ships in the Federation to worry about advancing your career.
The Enterprise was seen as the flagship. There’s no where else to go once you’re on the flagship. Every other ship would be considered a step down when you’ve already reached Starfleet’s flagship. Starfleet not having enough ships can be seen in the episodes “The Ultimate Computer” and “The Doomsday Machine”.
Every ship in those episodes looks like the Enterprise and that’s because Starfleet was still in it’s early stages and still working on designing different ships. But the Enterprise was the prize of the fleet so, once you’re there, why would you want to leave? This is the problem right here with constantly expanding the Star Trek mythos. Because people forget that Starfleet was still in it’s infancy stages when Captain Kirk took command of the Enterprise.
In the original Star Trek, there was nothing mentioned about what came before, except for Captain Pike and Captain April. But because they keep trying to tell new stories with Star Trek, people have forgotten about certain things about Starfleet from TOS, such as the size of the fleet. And this is probably why they want to reboot TOS now. Because, if you really look at it, there is stuff that is contradictory to other stuff that was established in TOS but that is being overwritten by everything else that comes out. But what can I do about it, right?.
All I can do is just sit back and enjoy it 🙂. But it is unfair to compare the TOS movies era to the modern era of Star Trek, Tiger2. I’m very happy with those movies and I don’t think about what might’ve been. Because back then the only focus was on the Enterprise and Admiral/Captain Kirk.
And, yes, I do like seeing the Star Trek characters interact with one another. That is cool to see! But, back when TOS and the movies were around, they were the only characters in Star Trek. There were no other known characters for them to interact with like there is today.
So it’s really not fair to compare the two eras but it’s your choice 🙂.
Live long and prosper, Tiger2 🖖
Dude I wasn’t comparing the TOS movies to modern Trek. I said I completely understood why and I also said I had no problems with that. I was only talking about it from an in-universe POV and that officers generally move around to different posts during their careers. Even on TOS people were coming and going on that ship.
But as I stated, I understood why they didn’t change the formula for the movies and at that time it was only TOS, so it was a one track mind set because there was nothing else. Once TNG and the others came as you said, then yeah they could experiment a little more but they still kept to the basic premise of TOS, which was fine.
And while Roddenberry definitely had his issues and a bit obsessive with his property to the point he was starting to treat it like a religion and not a TV show, I always give him credit for creating TNG. TNG really does change the game in such a way I don’t know what Star Trek would’ve looked like today if it failed. But I’m going to say not for the better. In fact I think it would’ve been popular but at a level closer to BSG where they rebooted the same show, just modernized for today’s audience over and over again. The next one that is suppose to land on Peacock is rebooting it with the same characters as before. Fine but it’s not expanding its universe like obviously Star Wars and Star Trek is doing. IF that was the case, I know I would’ve gotten bored and moved on long ago.
They wanted Roddenberry to basically just redo TOS and obviously that’s what Phase II would’ve done. But I think once the movies showed up and those actors would be tied to doing those then he knew he had to shake up the universe and he did. Again, he got a little TOO involved to the point he treated TNG like some kind of Manifesto of what the future of society is suppose to be like and anyone who wavered from that was fired. But I think Roddenberry was willing to try different things even if he still stuck to the basic outline of what Star Trek was.
Now today you can do a lot more things with it and tons more characters and now eras are involved. Of course the Starship setting still reign supreme but it’s understandable because for most people it will always be about exploration before anything. I still like to see them mix it up more and still want another starbase show. NOT DS9, but something in that direction.
But if Roddenberry was running it today frankly I think it would’ve died off by early 90s. Not because he can’t make new ideas, but he’s way too rigid with them and why so many others are credited with keeping it alive from Coon to Fontana to Bennet to Berman to Pillar to Behr to Abrams and Kurtzman. You may not like all these people but they have had success, at least at some point to keeping Trek alive and moving it forward. For me Berman will always be the biggest in that circle (sorry haters, I love Berman!). And while people complained it was starting to feel all the same, he didn’t rely on nostalgia as overkill which Kurtzman is now doing mostly with Roddenberry and Berman’s characters (but clearly working lol). But I think all of them should be credited.
But back in the 80s Star Trek was more monotone and still mostly about people being on the Enterprise although its still about that lol, but much much diverse today in its settings and premises and why it thrives!
Again, I have people I have resolved past issues with, but who I would prefer not to work with every day with for 5 months per year, and repeating for multiple years, and I am guess they would probably feel similarly about me. It’s just human nature, dude.
Now lots of $ can perhaps get me to change my mind on this, but it would be more $ I would ask for than if I didn’t have any negative history with that person. That would be mental cost-benefit calculation for sure.
Your job is not THEIR job man, that’s all I’m saying. Actors work with other actors and directors all the time they don’t always get along with, especially if they think it will be a big boost to their careers. There are actors notoriously difficult to work with and yet people still do because it still helps their careers just by being in the same show or movie with them. There are tons of A-hole directors or producers out there people would stand 100 feet from at a party but yet still work with them anyway because that’s how a lot of Hollywood works unfortunately. If you’re a big enough actor you can choose who not to work with but the majority don’t have that power.
And yes they made up YEARS ago so I think they will be fine. They show up at conventions together all the time now. They are also older today, so they probably moved on from the drama long ago. You disagree, fine, it’s all hypothetical until there is a show they are both on to know which I don’t see happening anyway. That’s why these arguments are funny, majority of them are about things that haven’t happened or probably never will.
I hear you, and I get your opinion. I just think you guys put too much weight on public appearances in front of fans – my opinion. I am not as convinced as you two are that their public behavior equates to them wanting to work together from Monday to Saturday five months a year for the next several years. And I don’t think you have to be an actor to deal with that — it’s human nature in any profession. Especially as successful people age in their careers, they tend to more selective about the people they are willing to work with. That’s all.
No worries, and as you said, it’s not likely to happen anyway. And it’s certainly possible that I am just plain wrong on this.
OK, understandable. We can move on now!
True 💯🙂! I like Rick Berman myself, Tiger2. I told you that I love Enterprise and that’s Rick Berman’s baby right there. I like all the people you mentioned. I don’t have problems with any of them.
And I agree with you on everything.
Live long and prosper, Tiger2 🖖🙂
They could easily do both series if they committed to making them unique and interesting instead of similar to some other thing that audiences (and Trek fans) know. Academy would be better if it didn’t go into space too often, which would be a tough sell to Paramount, I think, but it’s what would give the show some juice. Can still do space sims and the holodeck, but it should be more of a soap opera with the occasional real interpersonal stakes that the audience cares about. Section 31 should be Mission: Impossible — discrete events, not season-long galaxy-spanners. Or, you know, whatever. These are both concepts with a chance to give us something different. Personally, I don’t need to see spinoffs and continuations or remixes of legacy characters. TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT (kinda sorta) tried to give us something new each time out. That’s a better legacy to revisit, in my mind.
Good thoughts, dude. Yep!
Quark needs a sitcom.
Sure, why not. They’ve already graffitied TOS and TNG. Let these impulse demons do their worst.
Because I really liked DS9 I’d prefer that Secret Hideout not touch it or the characters in any way shape or form beyond a fan serviced cameo on LDX. Sorry but I don’t trust them to do the show justice. They’ve already screwed with TOS. Let’s not do the same to the best show of the Berman era….
It’s the inverse of Data’s line in “Darmok”: The situation is analogous to understanding the grammar of a language but none of the vocabulary.
SH definitely knows the vocabulary, but it has no concept of DS9’s grammar.
LDX sounds so cool as an acronym! It reminds me of THX!
I saw someone else use it a couple of years ago and felt it the appropriate abbreviation.
I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that there will never be a DS9 or Voyager revival, but that (like Janeway and Seven) characters and storylines from those series will show up in current or future Star Trek shows.
And I’m hoping you’re right. I love all these characters but we don’t need anymore reboots or revivals. I didn’t even like the idea of doing a TOS reboot with the Kelvin movies. It looks like they DID get their way for a TNG revival in Picard, but it’s only one season and more of a proper goodbye that Nemesis didn’t do, so its a little different. And frankly after two bad seasons of that show, that’s really the only direction that can even excite me now.
The ONLY show where I want another ‘season’ of is Enterprise. That’s really the only show I want a revival of because it ended too prematurely. I’m not holding my breath for it but its the one I think deserves more seasons.
All the others had their time. They all got a proper ending. I’m ALL for seeing the characters again but do something NEW with them like what we got in Picard. I love the idea of seeing Worf Captain of another Enterprise with a new crew. That’s NEW! But I don’t want to see these old characters redoing roles we seen them do 30, 40 or 50 years ago. It’s exactly why I don’t like the Khan idea because you can’t do anything with the character besides sitting him on Ceti Alpha 5 and we know how that turns out already.
It would be nice to see the crew back together during the romulan wars. It would just have to be onboard a new ship (NOT named Enterprise!) because the crew was so young when it was decommissioned and the actors are so much so experienced now. And Trip has to be alive. Federation historical records got his death wrong. Canon retcon I will be happy to live with #BecauseIFeltLikeItBrannon
Actually it would be great if they were on the refit NX-01. It started as an idea when Enterprise was still on the air and was possibly to be used if they got a season 5. But Picard last season officially made it canon. Maybe it’s refitted at the start of the story the way the Enterprise was in TMP.
And yeah Trip has to come back. I don’t care how they explain away his death. Make it part of the story if they have to. I know he was brought back in the novels as a Section 31 agent.
If we are fortunate to get new Enterprise show absolutely Trip needs to be back. I think it easy. All they have to do is just say it was a holodeck recreation of a made up situation using the historical characters from Enterprise. It never really happened.
Even if it’s not Sisko, I hope someone from DS9 will be in LD S3. I’m hoping for Bashir and O’brien myself.
Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Worf looks FANTASTIC!
Having a series based on Sisko, even a mini-series, would be great. I know that in the novelization of the finale, Sarah hinted that his corporeal existence was over, which to me sounds like he died. This is not something that was mentioned in the episode itself. Also, in the DS9 novels, Sisko did return, but these are non-canon. So, I would love to see them bring Sisko back, but I would also be happy to see what’s happened with Kira, Bashir, and Ezri Dax, among others.
In the show his life is not linear. The Prophets are not linear. So technically there is no such thing as being”over” 😁 Done and done!
Please bring back DS9! That would be so incredible awesome!
I speak for virtually nobody when I say that I don’t care if Sisko ever comes back. He’s the most overrated character in all of Star Trek. I love him at times — he’s terrific in “Take Me Out to the Holosuite,” for example — but overall he’s just a big nothing for me. There are entire half-dozen-episode stretches where he may as well not even be in the show. Bleh, who needs his missing-in-action ass?
Now, Bashir or Garak or Quark or Kira or Ezri? More of them, please, absolutely. And Worf, obviously.
Worf has always been so confusing to me. Are you a commander of DS9/Defiant? Are you a commander on Enterprise E (Or Captain )? Are you Ambassador to Q’onos? Like dude, pick one!
Worf is the Wolverine of Star Trek.
You speak for me Bryant. I agree with 100% what you say.
Alex Kurtzmann is that guy in every company that isn’t really good at anything especially the job he’s doing but for some reason allways knows exactly what his bosses want to hear. Which keeps earning him promotions even though pretty much everone else in the company would be more qualified for the Job.
An excellent description. I think we’ve all seen people who are truly not very good at their jobs but have successfully conned their superiors they really are. I know I have.
You guys are so harsh lol.
Good God no, SH have done enough damage as it is.
I just don’t get the same feelings when you revisit characters with animation. It doesn’t feel real at all, and there is an emotional wall that is put up. Even if the characters are voiced by the same actor, it needs to be live action for it to feel real. It will be cool to see DS9 back on Lower Decks (I am certain Quark will be involved), but until they suit up and put on the prosthetics, it just feels like a weird fan fiction.
ForMe, I would need Avery Brooks As Sisko to be interested in this.
His return seems unlikely to me.
Maybe Kurtzman is scared to touch something as perfect as DS9 in case of screwing it up
Hopefully, because he screwed up basically everything he touched
Oh how I wish he was that self aware….
Brooks was a badass at times in the series and when he was not overdoing it stood out as comparable to Kirk in terms of smarts and command presence. It was those odd times that he emoted over the top and it came off strange. My favourite captain after Kirk