Terry Matalas Gives ‘Star Trek: Legacy’ Update; Alex Kurtzman Hears Fans “Loud And Clear”

The series finale of Star Trek: Picard wrapped things up nicely, but it also set up what could be a spin-off show. In a series of interviews, Picard showrunner Terry Matalas has talked about his hopes for this “Star Trek: Legacy” follow-up show, and Alex Kurtzman weighs in on the fan enthusiasm for it.

Making room for Legacy?

Even though the Picard finale set up what could be a spin-off series, Terry Matalas has made it clear in a number of interviews that there is no current development work happening on Star Trek: Legacy. He outlined how the show would have to fit into a pretty full (and expensive) Star Trek slate for Paramount+, telling SFX Magazine:

These shows are expensive to make. They currently have two shows, with Strange New Worlds and Starfleet Academy [beginning production in 2024] and I think Paramount would have to financially justify a third one. I think the way they look at it is that they’re well-stocked. So unless fans can convince them otherwise, that’s certainly the point of view at the moment.

Matalas talked to CinemaBlend about how the head of Star Trek for Paramount+ has a plan for the franchise:

I think Alex [Kurtzman] has a plan for the Star Trek universe and I think he has to figure out how all these things play out, right? I don’t think he wants to rush into anything. He’s got two great [live-action] shows happening right now, Strange New Worlds and Starfleet Academy, and the Section 31 movie. So, you know, they’re pretty well stocked. At the same time, I think there’s a demand for this. I would say the fans should be loud and tell the world what they want. And maybe one day we’ll be able to do it…The fans are heard, but they should keep doing their thing.

LeVar Burton as Geordi La Forge, Brent Spiner as Data, Gates McFadden as Dr. Beverly Crusher, Michael Dorn as Worf, Marina Sirtis as Deanna Troi, and Jonathan Frakes as Will Riker in “The Last Generation”

Kurtzman not rushing into Legacy

Even with all the planned Star Trek projects, Matalas told Variety that he and Kurtzman are still talking about the spin-off idea:

Alex and I talk all the time. If it’s something that’s going to be done, we want to make sure we don’t rush into it. We want to make sure we do it right. That’s where we’re at with it, I say coyly. At the moment, there’s nothing developed on it. But we talk all the time.

For his part, Kurtzman made it clear the door to Star Trek: Legacy is open, telling Fox LA:

Anything is possible. We’ve heard the fans loud and clear. There’s obviously more story to tell. So, we’ll see.

The #StarTrekLegacy hashtag has only grown since the series finale, and a fan petition calling for the show is approaching 30,000, which is the same level of support seen by the petition calling for a Captain Pike/USS Enterprise show after the Discovery season 2 finale in 2019.

Michelle Hurd as Raffi Musiker, Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut as Ensign Sidney La Forge, Mica Burton as Alandra La Forge, and Jeri Ryan as Seven of Nine in “The Last Generation”

Legacy would pick up right after the Picard finale

The season finale showed Captain Seven of Nine starting a new mission on the USS Enterprise-G (the rechristened USS Titan). Speaking to Collider, Matalas said that is where he would want to pick things up in Star Trek: Legacy:

I think I would want it right there with them. I think the idea of Captain Seven, Jack Crusher, Raffi as Number One, the La Forge sisters, and Esmar and [Mura], I would love to see the crew of that Enterprise out there as the next generation, mixed in with a lot of these legacy characters again. I think that they’ve never been better and more interesting.

The finale also included a mid-credits scene featuring John de Lancie as Q to have a quick chat with Jack Crusher. Terry Matalas spoke to Entertainment Weekly about the Q/Jack scene and how it sets up Jack’s story for the Legacy show, saying “Oh yes, I do” when asked if he has a specific plan for the future of this character. Matalas also told EW:

Jack’s got a lot to do, let me tell you.

And what about Captain Shaw? Apparently being killed off in episode 9 isn’t stopping Matalas, who told SFX Magazine “[W]e do have plans for a Shaw character – specifically Todd Stashwick – to be a part of Legacy.

Jeri Ryan as Seven of Nine and Tim Russ as Tuvok in “The Last Generation”

Legacy would add characters from Voyager, DS9… with TNGers returning too

But it’s not just about Jack and the new characters. Speaking to Fox LA, Matalas discussed what characters he would like to see in Legacy:

It’s about Seven of Nine. It’s about Jack Crusher. It’s about the La Forge sisters. It’s about what else is going on in the galaxy with the Deep Space Nine characters and the rest of the Voyager characters… Honestly, some of these [TNG characters], I’m not ready to say goodbye to. I think in a lot of ways, Jonathan Frakes, LeVar Burton, Michael Dorn, Gates McFadden, they’ve never been better. They are at the top of their game and I want to see more.

All of the above-mentioned actors have expressed their interest in returning for a possible Legacy show. And Picard star Patrick Stewart told Variety he would be happy to pop in to check in on his on-screen son Ed Speleers:

…certainly, there is a wonderful future for Ed there, I’m sure of it. And if I can occasionally crop up to offer a little bit of comedy myself, then I shall be happy to do that.

Gates McFadden as Dr. Beverly Crusher, Patrick Stewart as Picard, and Ed Speleers as Jack Crusher

The third and final season of Picard is available exclusively on Paramount+ in the U.S., and Latin America, Europe and elsewhere. It is also available internationally on Amazon Prime Video in more than 200 countries and territories. In Canada, it airs on Bell Media’s CTV Sci-Fi Channel and streams on Crave.

Keep up with news about the Star Trek Universe at TrekMovie.com.

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Legacy Trek actors aren’t getting any younger… The simple solution would have been to delay or cancel Star Trek Academy to make room for Legacy. That’s what people are excited about.

I concur completely on the ridiculous ‘Starfleet Academy’ idea no matter what time era its in, DISCO 31st century or TOS, or TNG era….let us have a series with real grown-up and experienced adults taking the helm of starships….’LEGACY’.

Or compromise and turn the ‘Prodigy’ animated show into the ‘Starfleet Academy’ animated show.
Give Trek fans what the deserve and need, instead of force feeding us the live action ‘Starfleet Academy’ show.

…At least this article gives a shimmer of hope for the ‘Legacy’ show, and maybe Kurtzman is buying time to plan it out before any formal announcement, along with the likely writers strike which would further delay all productions and delay any planned announcements. I wonder if Picard S3 met or over-shot expectations…the ratings and critical/fan review are overall positive.

Kurtzman and CBS-Paramount is not as inept as Kathleen Kennedy-Lucasfilm, making production announcements that are shelved and/or canceled! I’m sure they are learning from Disney-Lucasfilm’s mistakes and go slow on development announcements until its a sure thing to be greenlit. Production budgets are tight and shrinking these days at Paramount and other studios.


The only appeal an ACADEMY show would have for me would be if some genius was able to cast a Ray Walston level actor as Boothby. Doubt he is alive in 30th century or whenever DSC is now.

it’s the age of AI – you can cast anyone….

That’s very early days, I’d prefer not to see zombie versions of great actors (zombie versions of zombie actors might be okay, but who really needs to see Roger Moore back as Bond?)

Ooh, snap!

Yes I would love another Boothby for this show.

Christopher Lloyd would make sense since he already rebooted a Walston character. I also would like Peter Capaldi or Werner Herzog.

32nd Century.

Brian May of Queen injured himself a while back with some extreme gardening. Will he do?

They are trying to grow the brand with the Young Adult demographic with Starfleet Academy. I get that, but I also get that most older fans don’t want that. I will give it a shot, but I was disappointed by the announcement.

Or they could do what they used to and just do a show the whole family can enjoy. None of the 90s shows were meant for kids, but we watched them as kids and became life-long Trekkies.

Precisely. Somehow Star Trek reached its 50th anniversary, and attracted new fans, without slapstick comedy, kiddie fare, and teen melodrama. It boggles the mind why anyone thinks this is going to work now.

paramount botched the 50th anniversary and ST needs new younger fan base.

kiddie fare’?

a lot of sophisticated animation out there that caters for families, exactly what ST needs.


a lot of that in ST through the years too

I totally agree, I would love to see Legacy, Hopefully with some other ‘young’ Starfleet officers such as Naomi Wildman.

Discovery is in 32nd Century.

The other issue is locking up Matalas.

If they take a while to make a decision on this, Matalas could move on to something different and become unavailable to be the showrunner.

It’d be ironic indeed if Matalas took a gig on GQ and wasn’t available to do this show; Par’s one hand not informing the other about what needs to happen, or at least do so in a timely manner.

He would be perfect doing a Star Wars streaming show — maybe that would be the best, he get’s a major career bump, and works more on shows that are in his fantasy-action-adventure comfort zone, and Trek moves forward with more shows that are closer to Star Trek’s brand of science fictions rather than Star Wars’s brand of science fantasy.

Maybe McFarlane will snag Matalas if The Orville is renewed.

That would be a win-win for all involved.

I’d be fine with it. I think The Orville universe has potential – if it’s renewed.


No I want Matalas working on more Star Trek. Why would you not want the guy that fans want to see more shows from? And they already have great people working on The Orville.

I think Matalas is smart, he’s not going to take anything that will be long term when he knows there is a chance to do his own Trek show. This guy lives and breathes this franchise and he’s not going to make a Bryan Fuller mistake and take a dozen different jobs. This guy only talks about Star Trek for a reason.

I agree make the show people WANT even if it means not making the show only the producer wants. No one is excited about a SFA show

Any time someone says “No one wants” or “No one is excited about” a project, it’s pretty much never an accurate statement. The best you can say is that there are people who aren’t excited about it. I’m sure a lot of people DO want it and ARE excited about it. You don’t speak for fandom, and online boards like this one are almost never a good barometer since there are so many negative people who post to them.

100% correct

This is true, someone will always want something. The question is do people want it enough? If we saw what ultimately happened with S 31, I would say the Academy show is in the same arena. Now maybe NOT as bad because people just didn’t love the concept and truly Georgiou on top of that, but there is also probably a reason we have not gotten an Academy show even though the concept has been around decades now.

And the other problem for the Academy show is that’s already being dubbed the CW teen show in space and that’s not going to attract the same people who love stuff like SNW and PIC S3. It just isn’t.

That said, people may love it, but now that fans got a taste of what the Legacy show is, it’s going to be damn hard to convince them otherwise.

There is a way out here. Move the Academy show into a TV movie also to test the water and make Legacy the next series now whilst the momentum is hot!

A win win for Kurtzman and Matalas in my book.

Yeah certainly a good compromise and I think why many are cool with the S 31 movie.

Or they can still do the show, but maybe just fast track the Legacy show first, because I think it’s important to their overall plans. So it doesn’t have to be cancelled, just maybe do that one after. But ironically I thought maybe what they were doing with SNW and the S 31 show would just come later…but I was clearly wrong on that. ;)

I would reverse that. Let’s do a Legacy movie first so that we can see if the concept can stand on it’s own once all of the TNG reunion fan service/nostalgia elements are removed. Because I, for one, am concerned about the storytelling aspects from Matalas once you remove all that (because their were a lot of bad plotting BS and JJA/Star Wars-like elements), and a TV movie that will need to stand on it’s own storywise without all of the nostalgia is what I would like to see first.

Lets do a Legacy movie first, before greenlighting a series. I want to see Matalas prove that he can deliver quality Trek without the nostalgia/fan service.


I have thought a couple times it might be interesting if they converted the movie franchise into making one lower budget movie per year with a more reasonable Star Trek plot (i.e. not a universe ending revenge plot).

However, a similar thing might work well for a TV show too if they made 2-3 two hour standalone movies per year instead of one drawn out 8 hour movie.

I’m sure there are some kids excited about it. I mean, I wanted an Academy show when I was younger, but based in the Berman era of Trek. I think it’s fair to say that the demand for a Legacy show outweighs the demand for an Academy show. That’s all people mean. You’re not seeing fan campaigns for SFA like Legacy’s getting.

I agree. If they moved to the Berman era the show would have wider appeal. I personally prefer it in the 32nd century but fine for either period.


‘no one knows anything’ – william goldman

Please stop the GATEKEEPING. You DO NOT speak for all fans.

This ‘put my favourite thing first!!!’ campaigning was exactly the kind of thing I was getting anxious about a month ago.

I was serious when I said that I was concerned that we might be getting some of the 1970s-type fandom behaviour.

Fans who wanted a live-action Phase II show took out out ads demanding NBC pull TAS from production and scheduling. This didn’t get TOS Phase II made, and it still took 5 years to get TMP.

Personally, I welcome the enthusiasm for another 25th century show. I support it generally even if I find the E-G ensemble presented in the Picard finale less than ideal, and continue to have concerns about the truly bleak situation Starfleet found itself in.

What I don’t wish to see is our conversation here becoming groups of fans pitted against fans. TrekMovie has always managed to keep gatekeeping in check while maintaining fairly open dialogue. I hope this can be maintained.

What I don’t wish to see is our conversation here becoming groups of fans pitted against fans. TrekMovie has always managed to keep gatekeeping in check while maintaining fairly open dialogue. I hope this can be maintained.

Agreed. And some of these fans are getting so emotional and defensive about this…sheesh!

“What I don’t wish to see is our conversation here becoming groups of fans pitted against fans.”

I totally agree, though if truth be told, you just described nearly 60 years’ of fandom. There have always been socially dysfunctional people, gatekeepers, “true fan” elitists, and others who give fandom a bad name, and sadly, there always will be

Please stop the GATEKEEPING. You DO NOT speak for all fans.

You’re taking him awfully literally. Woe betide you if you ever meet a political consultant (“the American people want X”).

Even pundits — who aren’t trying to sway people to their side — tend to talk about the electorate wanting Y after elections, even though tens of millions of people voted against the outcome that prevailed. Linguistic shorthand is a thing.

Woe betide you

Dude, no one ever said this to me before…VERY COOL !!! I am going to reuse this ancient phrase.

Woe betide you

Ten points for the archaic language!


Please don’t tell me what I or others don’t want.

I’m really happy to know that one show willing be carrying on in the 32nd century. If it has a Magicians vibe, all the better.

Many people here thought there was no interest or market for Lower Decks or Prodigy. Now they’re the most popular new digital animation shows on Paramount Plus.

That’s not saying much. Paramount+ lost $1.8 billion last year – they don’t need to sink more money into things that mainly are going to prop up a producers ego…and I guess TG47 too.

Just dropped in to make a personal jibe?

Pleas don’t. I’m old enough to have been around when the bitter fan campaigns against TAS were raging in the 70s. Also for when the TOS diehards were campaigning against TNG and making new fans lives miserable at cons in the late 80s. Rinse, repeat. Don’t have patience for another cycle of this franchise-sabotaging stuff.

If you can show me any streamer that made a profit last year, I’ll be happy to see it.

Paramount’s PlutoTV with its ad-supported model is raking in money as the global leader in that market.

Also, Paramount (unlike Disney) never stopped releasing physical media which, as it turns out, is a significant revenue generator.

Tiberius Mudd had it right elsewhere on this thread when they pointed out Paramount needs to attract the under 40s while also getting revenue from the older audiences.

So, different shows for different demographics. Accept and chill out please.

For the record I’m actually am a bit excited about the Academy show…but it’s nowhere near my excitement for the Legacy show lol. It’s the Section 31/Pike show situation all over again. Most fans were not excited about that show even after it was announced. But everyone seemed excited a Pike show…and look who won out. ;)

I like the Academy show because it IS different and I always say Star Trek should try to expand. An Academy show in the far future is as different as you can get lol. But yeah my dream is really to have more 25th century Star Trek, with or without legacy characters because I love to see these story lines grow and clearly I’m not alone in that.

We’ll see, but I think just like SNW, Paramount is getting the message loud and clear…again. ;)

I think Academy should’ve been done in the 25th Century, if at all. 1/4 Betazoid Kestra (Riker and Troi’s daughter) is enrolled there according to Matalas, on an early admission basis (suck it Wesley /s). Also, Elnor would be in his fourth year if they choose to pick on on that thread.

At this point in the timeline, you’ve got some incredibly exciting things happening, from the Romulans trying to pick up after the supernova, to the aftermath of the Borg transporter-based assimilation event. You know that the academy midshipmen would have at least been affected by it, especially if they were on rotation on a posting that used transporters.

Strategically, keeping it in the 25th century then allows it to share the universe with Legacy, which means that audiences that might not necessarily be interested in a young-adult type show might at least be inclined to tune in. Especially if the kiddos are fretting over Prof. O’Brien’s notorious Isolinear Compute Theory exam.

If it’s a matter of wanting to keep Mary Wiseman, you can still cast her as a descendant of one of her family members. God knows how well the Soong genes seem to be conserved.

I certainly get that and I have said that would probably be the best compromise for fans who just want more 25th century era stories. As you pointed out there are tons of things happening right now they can pick up and include in the show.

I think the reason it’s in the 32nd century besides just wanting to expand that era or bring in some Discovery characters is that they could have a specific story line set up they can only tell in this era, like the Burn. I feel there is probably an angle that only works if its there and they probably feel more people will be interested in it once they know about it.

Of course all that said, they can still just do the show in the 25th century. I know it will make tons of fans happy. I’m personally fine either way but I would still prefer the 32nd century setting just because it could be a radically different show due to it.

I agree with you about Academy. My concern is that there’s a good chance it’s about Tilly and her students, who don’t interest me in the slightest. Tilly is so damn annoying as a character. The teacher-student concept is a good one, but I dread having to see Tilly carry a show. I hope I’m proven wrong, but I don’t think she has the acting chops for it.

Yeah not a big Tilly fan either. I always thought she was way more annoying than funny; sort of the way other people view Neelix.

I don’t mind her but if she’s going to be the lead on this show some are assuming that’s way more of a turn off for me. But like you if she is there, I hope I’m proven wrong too.

Cool it with the broad claims of what “everyone” or “no one” wants. Let’s all move on now.

Thank you. Gatekeeping is the exact opposite of what fandom is supposed to be about.

I am much more looking forward to the new Academy Series. Please don’t presume to speak for all fans.

Completely agree! If they would like to then Starfleet Academy can be the next movie after Section 31. Put the brakes on the Academy show and punch it with Legacy!

Pleas stop demanding that whichever show fits your preferences comes first.

You’ve just had a full season of something you loved and want more of. That’s great, but don’t ask for projects that will appeal to other subscribers get shoved aside.

It takes a long time to get a series to production. SNW premiered 3 years after its backdoor pilot in Discovery season 2.

This Academy show will build on and use sets and virtual staging already created for Discovery.

This is an idea that’s been percolating since at least the 80s. Getting the show from development to greenlit was a 5 year journey. Meanwhile the core Trek fanbase (including me) continues to age. This show is very needed.

Man, if they do borrow so much from Discovery (sets, etc.) I hope they don’t borrow their scriptwriting and plotting. I could do with more SNW/LDS/PRO/PIC-type stories and fewer plodding DIS-type stories. Also, I think SNW did a much better job with the StageCraft LED wall than DIS; hope all Trek versions improve on its use.

It’s a different showrunner and writers room, but likely the same production team that gave us Discovery.

That’s reason alone I have more faith in the show. If it was Michelle Paradise again, I would be totally against it and probably be on the side of the people who just want it cancelled.

Pleas stop demanding that whichever show fits your preferences comes first. You’ve just had a full season of something you loved and want more of. That’s great, but don’t ask for projects that will appeal to other subscribers get shoved aside.

Well said!

Delay for sure at least, I think! Also isn’t the coming season of ST: Prodigy set up to basically be an academy show. (Spoiler Alert) The whole cast of kids are now in Star Fleet being trained to be Star Fleet officers, so… Why not let that live there. And since live action TV is so very expensive, bet on a sure-fire hit. No other season of modern Star Trek has rated as highly as this season of Picard. This logic doesn’t seem that hard to follow to me. So, let’s refit the Titan to live up to the name Enterprise and let Terry bring Paramount+ another sure-fire hit show. Can you imagine a world where there’s ST: SNW and ST: Legacy both on TV? That world would be heaven!

The Prodigy kids were made noncommissioned warrant officers. They will be on Janeway’s ship next season.

Even Janeway couldn’t get the Academy to admit them ahead of others who have been competing for entry.

Yeah, I think this is why people are getting passionate about it. Paramount only has a certain amount of money and real estate for Star Trek, so something’s got to lose for something else to win. The way they’re putting it, they’re doing SFA instead of Legacy because that’s all they can do right now. If it’s a binary choice, SFA loses to fan demand for Legacy. If Paramount had the budget for both, then fine. Do both. But the legacy actors are aging and only have so much left in the tank. You can’t wait years to do a show with some of them. But a show with kids in it? That can be postponed.

Well, Star Trek Academy can play in all timelines. But the Stage Budget Officers would cry big tears because of some Sets..

SNW Timeline
ST: Legacy Timeline
Discovery Timeline

They could go there and make some Short Treks episodes that covers all of these Timeline.. But as i said.. Actors and Set is the key

I understand that impulse but at the same time, people have been speculating about a Starfleet Academy series since before TNG. The idea has been kicked around for decades and its basically just time to pull the trigger on it and let it sink or swim. However, they could prioritize Legacy as a full series and make Academy a series of TV movies that would be timed to spin off into a full series down the road. The alternative would be to do a series of Legacy films but the downside to that approach is that it would likely take a few years before it could transition into a show which brings back the problem of the older actors ages.

I think they decided to pull the trigger because they were out of ideas prior to PIC S3’s success. I haven’t heard any other ideas from Kurtzman other than an Academy and Section 31 show. Maybe there’s a reason no one did an Academy show for decades – it’s not THAT in demand.

And you may get your wish Jordan. This literally happened with the S31 show and SNW. They may just push ahead with the Legacy show and delay Academy…for another four years lol.

I don’t think that WILL happen yet, but yes there is obviously precedence.

Actually, the Academy show could BE the Legacy show, quite simply actually. Just get it away from that 32nd.

I don’t really have an interest in the Academy series, Picard series 3 was the best Star Trek since First Contact. Legacy for me….

I have to say, the enthusiasm for this is amazing. I know an unofficial Facebook poll asking what would fans want – the Academy series or the Legacy series. Most fans favor the Legacy series and its a lopsided poll!

One series does not exist then and so no one’s even seen one episode. Apples and oranges — that poll is nonsensical.

I remember a LOTR fan poll on AOL back in the 90’s where the majority of fans said they would always prefer the Ralph Bakshai animated LOTR movie to the upcoming Peter Jackson movies….lol

Point taken.

LOL it’s not even remotely a question. It’s like who do you want to see Kirk or Spock on the Enterprise in an era you know and love or new kids going to class 900 years in the future? Do you want to see Riker or Seven on the Enterprise again in an era you know and love or once again new kids going to class 800 years in the future?

That’s the issue, nostalgia and familiarity will always win out over something new and radically different. And I bet you Paramount is asking the same question.

It will always win out for fans over 45 Tiger2. Others not so much.

But Paramount+ knows that it can’t succeed as the streamer for guys over 45.

For my teens, who as you know were raised on Trek, absolutely not what attracts them.

They ‘never got into TOS’ despite watching all the movies. They drop into occasional episodes. Seeing legacy characters on SNW is a big yawn for them. It’s Discovery S2 that got them into Pike.

They checked out of Picard mid S1, absolutely nothing will convince them to give S3 look.

Without LDS and Prodigy, they would have checked out of the franchise completely.

Obviously I mean long term fans. That’s always going to be an easy question. There are people who want another TOS show and I’m guessing most of them are in their 60s. But yeah I can’t see them that excited over a teen Starfleet Academy show; especially if given the choice between them.

In that case I would actually choose the Academy show…because prequel.

They are not about to do an about face on Academy in less than 2 months from when it was announced… However, Academy is no further along than Section 31 was for years… I doubt we will hear about a full replacement of Academy with Legacy, but I would expect Legacy announced sometime during the SNW season 2, and then they will act like Academy is still very much alive, but it will just start to fade away.

Kurtzman’s deal was also through 2026, no? I wouldn’t be surprised if Metalas and/or Frakes is part of the renewal of the deal with Secret Hideout, putting one or both of them actually in charge of Trek and letting Kurtzman do some other projects. That would also be 10 years of Kurtzman…

Paramount can tell that the most successful shows have been the ones with the least Kurtzman direct involvement – Picard Season 3, SNW, Lower Decks.

This. Academy seems like a teenager show, and there will always be teenagers actors, but as you say this actors are not getting any younger. We can’t expect to have Captain Seven in ten years, that will be Admiral Seven at that point. And TNG actors are going to retire (or worse) sooner or later. Legacy has to happen now .. or it will be never.

Legacy Trek actors aren’t getting any younger…
Which is all the reason you need for not building a show around actors where age makes a long term commitment an issue. The folks who clamor for Shatner to get one more outing in the center seat miss this point all the f**king time….

Yeah but this is a misnomer. The legacy show is not about the TNG characters. When the Enterprise warped out, Seven, Raffi, Jack and the rest of the bridge crew from the Titan were on it. It wasn’t Riker, Worf, Data and Troi. People, including Matalas has made it clear the next show is about the next, next generation, ie, the youngins. They have said this many times. The final episode made that abundantly clear. And yet people seem to keep saying its a TNG continuation show or something. It’s N-O-T!

Not to be busting your chops here, but the folks pitching a fit for this are all expecting their warm fuzzy TNG cast security blankets to be dropping in. Frequently. Further, does anyone think Matalas will be able to resist dipping the story bucket into the nostalgia wishing well? I don’t.

I think it’s pretty unrealistic to expect them to have been developing Academy for so long, announce it and put it into proper pre-production, and then completely change course several weeks later.

Yes, that’s how I’d handle it also for sure!!!!

Who says Legacy will include any of the TNG cast?

Oh please dump starfleet academy for this…even the latest strange new worlds trailer has a vibe I’d rather see replaced with Star Trek Legacy style storytelling. The powers that be really thought Picard season 3 was going to be a fan service dead end…now they have all this mainstream buzz and all they have on deck is Disco derivative stuff.

I want to keep SNW. It’s awesome.

I agree, they should NOT dump that series at all. It ranks up there with Picard Season 3.

Dump Academy, bring on Legacy!

Man, I can agree with preferring Legacy to SFA (as concepts, since SFT is not fleshed out for us fans yet), but I really enjoyed SNW. SNW wasn’t perfect, but so enjoyable; and I liked their approach even if some of their choices were a bit conservative or didn’t work as well as intended. And the trailer for S2 looks just as good, and if they actually pushed things further this season like they have been touting, I can’t see it turning out less than great!

But this is what kills me. They HAD to know once you bring in all the legacy characters back and dump them on a starship for literally 10 episodes that it will excite fans.

Because this is what the fan base wants. To me the Legacy show isn’t remotely different than SNW. It’s legacy characters fans grew up with and love being back on the Enterprise. One is a prequel and the other is a sequel but they are both gunning for literally the same fans who grew up with TOS and TNG. SNW has become a huge hit because they brought back those elements and obviously so did Picard season 3.

I mean when you have fans literally crying because you brought back these characters and ships with ratings that are probably some of the biggest for a Trek show on P+, it’s insane not to find a way to keep that going.

People want their comfort food Star Trek. They got it with SNW and Picad S3. That’s just the reality even if fans like me want to see new things. But most want the familiar and in today’s Hollywood where taking risks is less and less these days, that will usually win out.

Who are “they,” though? Paramount hired Secret Hideout to develop and produce Star Trek shows. Secret Hideout hired Terry Matalas to help them finish up their deal with Paramount to produce three seasons of Star Trek: Picard. Terry’s pitch for season three was okay’d by SH and then approved by Paramount and then it happened under a tight budget (this might be the first season of a SH Trek show that didn’t go overbudget? Maybe the animateds have avoided this fate, too) — great! But Picard was just an obligation SH had to finish. They really were excited about what’s after Disco and Picard and that’s where we get Academy and S31. And now Paramount is telling their Star Trek brand manager that they have less money for future projects so the development path has narrowed.

Paramount is taking its cues from Secret Hideout first, since they’re the entity under a deal to manage Star Trek for them. Matalas is trying to pry that relationship apart with his public comments — it may or may not work! I don’t think this is any sort of misread. Secret Hideout has brought back legacy characters in every show that they’ve made for Paramount. The people running both entities were not around in the 90s. They can only react well after the fact. The people making Star Trek thought they were making people their comfort food Star Trek already.

What I mean is everyone knew a TNG revival show already had massive potential to be a huge hit…so why not just keep going that direction? Even Kurtzman said he wanted the entire TNG cast back from the beginning but he was listening to Stewart unfortunately. Now that they got them…well yeah!

And to be honest I don’t really see them being all that ‘excited’ about the Academy show OR S 31. Both of them were announced five years ago as potential shows. S 31 was obviously meant to be a show and now it’s just a one off movie. But it could still be good obviously but they knew fans were not excited about a show.. The Academy show probably got approved because they are trying to reach younger demographics and I do feel because they want to keep the 32nd century era going because it’s new and they can bring on DIS characters, but I also imagine it will probably be a much cheaper show to make as well.

And I don’t buy they didn’t know what they had considering 3 of the 5 shows are literally based around 90’s shows and characters. They hired Mike McMahan because that is the guy who wrote a comedic season 8 TNG outline years ago and knew his passion for that era. Same for Matalas.

Now all that said, I’m not really disagreeing with you. In fact I’m having a deja vu to 2019 when I was saying what you were about Section 31 and SH has a plan already and don’t expect a Pike show anytime soon because they were ‘excited’ about S 31…and looked what happened. ;)

So sure you could be completely right. And yes if it is just a money issue then they will probably stick to the Academy show for now. But they had no problem changing gears once when fans were shouting for the Pike show, I can see the thing with the Seven show; especially since no one seems all that excited about an Academy show. I am but I really feel like I’m in the minority lol. And yes I admit I would prefer the Seven show IF I had to choose.

And people were pushing for a Seven show two minutes after she appeared in the Picard trailer lol. Seem like the direction to continue in once you knew Picard was leaving and fans were already begging for a spin off.

The next year is going to be fun to see where all this goes.

They are really stuck because they *should* be trying to fetch new fans abut the only way they get numbers is by catering to the 40+ crowd. Tough spot.

Completely agree. It’s a super tough spot lol.

The only way Academy works is if Discovery ends up being a simulation inside of a 25th-century Starfleet Academy student’s holo-deck exam and they stay using rules which allow it to stand out rather than fight others in a crowded market. It could be the 26th century, 27th – just get rid of “The Burn”; or stay away from it. It hinders marketability.

Making TV/Film nowadays and trying to find new fans is not to target a demographic. Young people are not stupid and they know when they are being sold something; if it has so many different ideals it’s portraying to create “connections” it loses its own identity and creates none that are deep.

– If it isn’t part of the current must-watch talk around schools (Stranger Things for example) it will be seen as “Ah.. that has some stuff that was important to me, like so, last year.” – When writers write for the young by trying to engage with “what is hip” – They are always failing and come off “square”.

I was in love with Star Trek: The Next Generation as a kid. It was must-watch TV because it had its own vision and stuck to it while being smart, insightful, hopeful, and funny. Its world was basically alien and the opposite of anything else. “Future Utopia – very little conflict amongst each other – explained how everything worked, how and why”. It never tried to steal my love and attention, it earned it by being grown-up and treating me as if I was a grown-up. It felt like watching a show that was always of its own. What else could be compared, on television at the time to Star Trek: The Next Generation?

It didn’t treat me like I was a kid or teen, its content related to obscure yet rational concepts, you got “Space Mysteries” which had a cast that was engaging in this world that was so unlike our own…it stood alone thanks to the script world rules developed and kept for it.
Shows rarely keep a strict “book” or “ruleset” anymore… or if it had one, it will break it eventually. This is basically what is missing from countless television – “Be true to the source and what came prior; stand as a unique “vibe” – It’s hard to do without hitting someone over the head with it, but it’s doable.

While I enjoy Strange New Worlds because I’m already a Star Trek fan; it’s nice to see new Star Trek even if it isn’t… what I think of as “Star Trek” when I could imagine watching it and saying “Pretty cool.” and turning on Guardians of the Galaxy instead.
This is why nostalgia is not an excuse for when something does well like Picard Season 3 – it plays a role, but it reminds us of a time when a week to week you could have a mind-blowing episode like the Inner Light – it was tied to the characters and the world, but it wasn’t tied to a narrative thread that had to keep interrupting exploration of the story – the ability to be obscure, yet relatable; most season’s of television have an over-arching plot that used to be done better in a single episode of TNG.

I honestly can’t figure out why THEY don’t already know this about Star Trek. It’s not Star Wars, It’s not Battlestar Galactica, It’s not Dr. Who – It’s Star Trek. Be Star Trek and you’ll find the new fans for being unique.
Unique gets all the #’s and Instagram likes or whatever people do – nobody is paying attention to the profile that is kind of like a bunch of others but not as interesting.
Just be the same; you didn’t need a make-over, to begin with – you just ran “Hollywood” stupid into what used to be brilliant (TNG films). People got tired… and then you did it again Kelvin style. It’s not Star Trek’s fault it didn’t make X amount of money; it’s the entire thing.
Just be the most cohesive well-story-crafted show/film you can be. Trying to be the big Summer grossing film should never be part of the creative process or strained upon it.

Come on now. Don’t think about the teens – they want to be older anyway; it’s a bizarre time of life that oddly fits with the bizarre stories Star Trek told when I was growing up… Don’t make it obvious it’s about the money… it spells sell-out to that demographic and it’s a double fail. if you write for them you write beneath them and nobody wins.

I don’t think they’re stuck. Basing a show around Picard’s kid, Geordi’s Kids, and Seven of Nine, can appeal to both young and old.

Crazy thing is, they’ll make more money doing Legacy.

Yeah I think so as well. They will probably save money making the Academy show, but long term the Legacy show just has so much more potential to make money.

But Tiberious Mudd said it, they want a show with a younger demographic and can expand the base. But it’s just no guarantee it will do that. Both LDS and PRO were also made for younger people in mind, but I have no idea if that’s working for either show or if the majority are just older fans watching them? I hope PRO really is gaining a younger base because that was the point. I’m sure LDS has gotten some younger and newer fans but I’m guessing the overwhelming majority of people watching that are older fans too.

All said and done, the Academy show may end up the same. With the Legacy show, they know they will be getting older fans but they will be getting them in droves!

Will they?

Short run thinking. The streamer already skews old while Netflix is drawing in the under 30s.

There are a lot more older people and they have money.

The youth population is declining and is quite poor.

Clearly someone thought so or no one would’ve asked an 80 year old actor to revive an old role in the first place.

It’s the way the nautical writing is that makes it special. “Port thrusters to (digits) degree – it acts like an actual starship and starship crew rather than just flying around having fun… in TNG every episode was filled with using the technology in a way that allowed the viewer to understand it – to learn how the ship works; while keeping a serious tone you’d expect upon a bridge of a starship. The idea if the future had aliens and space travel – as close to real life as possible.
What SNW misses is the moments that make great tense drama – you can do so much with stating coordinates and showing close-up shots of actors rather than a comedic caper with fight scenes.

The human element is explored with relations of characters, but… What does anyone actually do on the ship? Why do they do it, how do they do it – is it all really just that easy?

  • It’s tiny yet simple things that writers of the newer Trek shows seem to totally miss as being a core foundation of what Star Trek is…

For me, a fan service dad end is precisely what it was.

Would love to see Star Trek Legacy happen, however I don’t want them canceling another Trek show to “make room” for it.

I’d rather see a Star Trek: Legacy much more than either the Academy and Section 31 show. With Disco ending and SNW as an episodic show, Legacy could fill in that serialized gap for a Trek show.

They’ve already reworked the Section 31 concept into a movie. I could see a possible Legacy storyline with Section 31 and Bashir, but a standalone story about the adventures of Emperor Georgiou…. I don’t know. Probably the best decision is to do a one-off.

I can see that as well. The irony is I remember saying that about Section 31 and the Pike show when people were arguing what should get made first. I remember suggesting just bring Pike on the S 31 show at the time and have the Enterprise involved with them for a mission if you want to sort of do both shows and have a 23rd century based show.

The same idea might happen with S 31 and now a 25th century based movie and could bring in more legacy characters so fans will get their fill and convince some of the naysayers to watch the movie.

I think I would want it right there with them. I think the idea of Captain Seven, Jack Crusher, Raffi as Number One, the La Forge sisters, and Esmar and Mira, I would love to see the crew of that Enterprise out there as the next generation, mixed in with a lot of these legacy characters again. I think that they’ve never been better and more interesting.

Who are Esmar and Mira?

I think they meant Mura the Bajoran helms officer. Esmer is the other officer featured. The bald alien not sure the race. Guess they would get time to flesh them out. Hopefully episodic like SNW.

As long as they’re not given the Official Melissa Navia Short End of the Stick. I always kind of felt bad for her that she was, basically, the only SNW main cast member who got no storyline of her own last season. Per her comments, though, she got more to do in the upcoming season.

Hopefully I like Ortegas.

I interpreted this as a rhetorical question, rather like “Jimmy Who”?

2 of the 3 bridge crew that had speaking parts. The third one (the Vulcan) was killed.

Esmar was the communications officer, Mira is probably a typo (Mura, the tactical officer.)

This cast lineup is so uninteresting to me. I only really like Seven.

I despise the character of Raffi, not to mention having her as first officer breaks the tradition since DS9 to have a male/female split between captain and first officer. I doubt they will be having an all-male combo ever again.

And do we need both La Forge sisters? The second one who is Levar’s real daughter is boring.

I agree with much of this. Matalas killed off his two best creations, Shaw and T’Veen. And I’ll pull my hair out if we get another magical resurrection of the former. If you create a character you want to use again, don’t have him die in the story.

Jack Crusher was a compelling enough character for one season, but I don’t feel drawn to an entire series with him.

Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut was much better than Mika Burton; the latter didn’t harm the series, and she had a relatively minor role (again leveraging the nostalgia). But in the context of a full-time series, relying on stunt casting of real-life offspring is a path to disappointment.

Ultimately, if they do this legacy series, they’re going to have to create some additional interesting characters, the way that SNW did.

Totally agree about T’Veen. You could tell she would have played a Vulcan very well. Even with the few lines of dialogue, she was a presence.

I like to give Kurtzman a lot of credit for the great stuff he’s done for this era of trek. This guy get a lot of online hate.

  1. After introducing Pike on Discovery he heard the well response the character got and gave Strange New World a go. He moved Discovery to a new time period after complaints about the show not fitting with canon.
  2. He recognized the talent of Terry M and made him the show runner for the final season of Picard.
  3. He brought back Patrick Stewart and Kate Mulgrew
  4. This one isn’t exactly Kurtzman related, but including the fan films, Kelvin Verse I feel like a lot of fans are behind the wheel of the Trek franchise and are allowed to show it.

Yeap, seems for me to be someone that get his Job done and that counts, right?

He moved Discovery to a new time period after complaints about the show not fitting with canon.

There is a saying: out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Did something go down between Matalas and Brent Spiner and Marina Sirtis? This is at least the third interview I’ve seen where he’s praised the other TNG cast but not them. Plus they were mostly absent from the promo tour when he would be involved.

Could be nothing most likely or they’re just over it but just something I’ve noticed.

I’ve read elsewhere that Sirtis wasn’t terribly happy with her character’s part. Siritis did appear on The View, but Spiner did very little promotional work. And this certainly wouldn’t be the first time there was bad blood between a producer and actors, that’s for sure.

For what it’s worth, Spiner had LOTS of good things to say about Matalas at Planet Comicon KC just a couple of weeks ago.

It’s a question at this point.

Marina Sirtis lives in the UK. She had to literally fly out the morning after a successful one-woman play had its final night in London’s west end in order to show up on set at Picard. So, that shows commitment.

On the other hand, she missed the premiere but showed up on the Trek cruise the next week. One guess is that she was underwhelmed with Troi’s role in the finale, or as she’s mentioned, the last flights to and from LA nearly killed her dogs, so she’s limiting her time away from the UK.

Spiner is the more surprising. He’s in the US. There’s always the possibility of ongoing negotiations around his character.

Just looking around, the West End thing was for seasons one. Apparently this season, Matalas said she was only available for two months to film. However she’s been out at cons and on the cruise saying she was available but they just didn’t use her.

I think it’s interesting Spiner did Zoom in for the TNG reunion interview they did with Matalas for The NY Times while the author says Sirtis declined.

I don’t think think the actors have any bad blood with each other but it’d bum me out if Spiner and Sirtis weren’t happy with how what’s probably the final TNG bow ended.

Spiner is just over it I think at this point. He gave an interview where he said he basically only came back this time because he wanted to work with his friends, which fair enough.

I have thought something was up between Matalas and Sirtis for a while now. I don’t think it’s anything malicious, but I get the impression they didn’t vibe and that she didn’t like her story other than when she was working with Riker. I saw a clip someone posted elsewhere of her talking about how much she loved her experience on season 1 and where that left Deanna. Since they basically rewrote Nepenthe and their storyline from season 1, I wonder if that’s what it’s about.

As for the promo though, she was only in the last three episodes in any meaningful way. I doubt she wanted to do press and have to spend the whole time saying ‘just wait seen weeks, then you’ll see me!’ when everyone is talking about their storylines this season.

To be fair, Spiner also got very late into the game in Season 3. But i think it is more that “Capt. Budget” is the King not Matalas and so many things got “denied!” also the little Deadline Demons was flying without mercy over their heads. They need to make cuts, even if they hurts

Or until the next paycheck. ;-)

Well, I’m sure they’d all come back again if something gets going. Despite wondering if Sirtis and Matalas didn’t vibe, she’s one of the ones saying she’d love to come back and do more and has been since last fall lol.

From everything I’ve seen (all of it conjecture, of course) it seems like it’s just a case of an actor thinking their part was too small or not significant as other some of the other cast members. I mean, Riker had a lot more to do than usual.

She had to literally fly out the morning after a successful one-woman play had its final night in London’s west end in order to show up on set at Picard.

What was the play, out of curiosity? I assume it’s not playing any longer…

Marina lives back in the UK now so would largely be unavailable. And Brent blows hot or cold on reprising Data depending on the day of the week. Also got the impression he held out for a LOT of money last season.

I think it’s more of her living in the UK, distance and time zone are issues. I would have thought she’d do a lot of UK press, but she’s been very quiet. I hope she’d come back if asked – Troi’s character is so much better now even with the limited appearances.

I think it’s more of her living in the UK, distance and time zone are issues.

IIRC, at least five airlines ply the nonstop route between LAX and LHR: BA, VS, UA, DL and AA. Of course, maybe she was a fan of the sadly-cancelled NZ001 flight, which was rumored to be popular with B-list celebrities who had only business class, and not first, written into their contracts, and who found NZ a superior product. (I sure was! I once sat a row behind Dame Kiri Te Kanawa on it!)

Spiner said in a funny way “they basically locked me in a cave for spoiler reasons”. Remember; He was originally mentioned as playing Lore.
Also I only heard both Terry and Brent always saying great stuff about each other and how both loved the role of Brent in season 3. About Sirtis and Matalas I have no idea.

I would definitely prefer this to SNW.

I definitely would not. I was a strong advocate for a Pike-based show, and love SNW. I waited years after Discovery not to mention decades after The Cage was finally released on VHS.

I’m also looking forward to seeing more of the gorgeous brightly lit 32nd century in the Academy show as well as Yeoh in the event movie.

Nice that folks have diverse tastes and that Kurtzman’s at the point that he’s got a group of showrunners who can lead and champion in different eras.

Let’s not get into demanding that one thing gets canceled so that our own market subniches get satisfied first.

Agreed. Matalas was doing Kurtzman a favor by finishing up the third season obligation, but it’s not his franchise. Let the people in charge continue their wildly successful authorial vision of the future. No need to revisit the past.

I definitely would not. I was a strong advocate for a Pike-based show, and love SNW. I waited years after Discovery not to mention decades after The Cage was finally released on VHS. I’m also looking forward to seeing more of the gorgeous brightly lit 32nd century in the Academy show as well as Yeoh in the event movie. Nice that folks have diverse tastes and that Kurtzman’s at the point that he’s got a group of showrunners who can lead and champion in different eras. Let’s not get into demanding that one thing gets canceled so that our own market subniches get satisfied first.

SO WELL SAID — 100% Agree !!!

You know how much I want the 32nd century to continue. It’s the biggest reason why I want the Academy show lol. But I have to be honest obviously, people seem very disappointed in how the 32nd century has been presented so far and I obviously include myself in that. I obviously blame it on Discovery because it’s a bad show and has squandered it so far, but I’m still optimistic the potential is there to do amazing stuff with it.

For me, I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I want both a 25th century show and a 32nd century show. I agree with Matalas the 25th century is ‘present day’ Star Trek, but I really love the idea of seeing it’s future as well. And I think the Legacy show will happen, it’s only a matter of when which I been saying for months now.

And no I don’t think they should cancel the Academy show for the Legacy show. But it’s so hilarious because I remember alllll the posts I used to write suggesting the S 31 show was going nowhere no matter how much fans pleaded to have a Pike show and look what happened. ;D

So yeah you can tell fans not to ‘demand’ anything, but the problem is they actually got the results they wanted. In fact to the point a S 31 show never happened at all. It seems like the movie (which I’m also looking forward to) is only being made to keep their promise to Yeoh and do something with it and because P+ now wants to do Trek films.

Maybe the Legacy idea will be made into a movie, but maybe that could wind up being the Academy’s shows fate as well if Paramount simply goes with fan sentiment…they did the last time.

Tiger2 there’s a huge difference between asking people to stop demanding a show NOT be made so that they will get what they want sooner vs asking them to stop advocating for Legacy.

The second is great (hey, I signed the petition), but the first is completely uncool.

It’s the kind of divisive fan nastiness than gave us nothing for half a decade after TAS was canceled.

Let’s not cheer on a pull back from Academy please. It’s a different product in a different niche. Canceling it won’t get my teens or others to watch Legacy. A movie unconnected to a show isn’t the mechanism to build a new audience.

If it’s got a profitable business case, it needs to happen. As did Prodigy and Lower Decks despite all the predictions here about how people didn’t see the value in them.

Kurtzman’s on a roll with hiring great creators and showrunners. Let’s give it a chance.

Dude I agree with you 100%…but do you know where you are man? ;D

That’s like asking liberals to NOT want Trump to go to jail regardless if he loses again in the next election. Some people just want it all! And look it’s going the other way too. There are some people here adamant there shouldn’t be a Legacy show. Sure, they are in a vast minority lol, but they are here. They have the right to say it. And I disagree with both.

I’m on your side. As I said, I don’t think it will be either/or situation, we’ll most likely just get both. And I have also been the one reminding people the Academy show has originally been in development since 2018…it just got the green light this month. Picard season 3 ended Thursday, yeah it may take a little longer than five days to announce something lol.

In other words, R-E-L-A-X! I have faith in Kurtzman. As much as people still dub him as Satan incarnate, he gets it, he does. He knows what a home run this entire season has been and how important these characters are to the fans. Who wouldn’t want to give more of that if they could?

And I’m pretty sure there will be new Trek shows coming for another five years at least. If the Academy show happens, this will probably be the next thing in line because it’s a sure bet. But people want things YESTERDAY!

Canceling it won’t get my teens or others to watch Legacy. 

At the risk of being overly snarky: you’ve been gauging Trek by your teens’ reaction for several years now. How much longer are they going to be teens?

Wow it’s almost like 13 to 19 is 6 years. Incredible. That’s more than several years.

My point being, that these teens are probably close to college-freshman age by now. It’s time for them to stop being Philis-teens art-wise and deal with adult-themed literature. That doesn’t have to be STAR TREK; but what are they going to do when they read (say) William Faulkner?

I interview applicants to my undergrad alma mater, and I’m profoundly skeptical that TG47’s teens are typical of anything; his kids seem to have somewhat childlike tastes (or at least that the message they’re sending when their parents are watching).

Sometimes I ask applicants to name a favorite movie; thankfully, I get a lot more sophisticated answers than “Prodigy” or its ilk. (In fairness, applicants to Prestigious University aren’t necessarily typical, either.) Still — and setting aside sentimental cases like Beverly Cleary or Dr. Seuss — I’d be deeply concerned if a rising college freshman couldn’t engage with anything deeper than kidlit.

It would be a profound mistake to infantilize STAR TREK to cater to this demographic.

No, just no! I really want LEG but not at the expense of SNW. That’s the only show more important than a potential LEG… But you know, Paramount seems to be re-evaluating SNW anyway so maybe, this will happen…

Why do you think SNW is being reevaluated?

The third season has been greenlit. Preproduction is complete, and principal production should begin in May.

Now, Paramount is taking renewals one season at a time, but in the streaming world even a third season designates a show as a hit.

They’re not canceling SNW. It’s their flagship Trek show now. Don’t know why people are even suggesting it.

What are they re-evaluating about SNW? It just got a new season along with LDS. I think it will be fine for the next two years at least.

SNW has the support of Paramount. I think they will get their 5-year mission and then segway into TOS. (Were I Ethan Peck and Paul Wesley? I’d be pretty excited. If all goes well, they’ve got work for the next 10 years.) The Enterprise sets can quickly be redressed as another ship, and Par+ can tell any story they want with any crew. It will be less expensive to make and timed correctly? The mini-series and movies can build excitement as a new series or season approaches. Legacy has Enterprise G built, and they can do similar stories. SA will most likely be made in Toronto on the DSC sets.

“I think they will get their 5-year mission and then segway into TOS. (Were I Ethan Peck and Paul Wesley?”

God, that sounds awful.

SNW is more on the creation track. Where Picard 3 reused the past. We need shows like SNW now so that future can be written for shows like Picard season 3 can be happen again

SNW can only go so far as its storylines will be hamstrung by not to distant future canon. We no nothing of the 25th century so whilst Legacy might reflect on where older characters are now, it is clearly setting its sights on the future with Captain Seven and a bunch of new characters at her side.

As much as I like SNW, I just don’t really buy this argument either. SNW first season did nothing but remind us of TOS story lines and characters. It’s season finale (which I loved) did nothing but recreate Balance of Terror, just starring Pike this time. It reused the past over and over again just like Picard did. It only did it a little less because McCoy, Sulu and Scotty isn’t part of the show…yet.

How many Gorn have we seen in TOS? So alone this is “New” sure they buildup on the TOS Wisdom. But they did expand the TOS Universe at that point

Perhaps SNW are lucky to be in New Lands, but we know their crash barriers for some, like Spock, Uhura and Una and others that made an appearance with Kirk.

Discovery into the far Future had none of it and that could be the reason. Their Worldbuild had not really time to evolve enough

So, i stay with my “creation track”.

TOS is like an very good Big Cheese with big Holes and SNW are about to fill them with Good Stuff :)

But that’s my point, the fact that they are even using the Gorn in the first place. They are obviously using them due to their appearance in Arena. I would’ve preferred if they just created a new species entirely to fight. I’m not against them using the Gorn, but I would’ve liked someone new, especially to avoid canon issues.

But I really just posted because your argument doesn’t seem to hold up. You cite Picard for using past things like the Borg but SNW is literally doing the same thing. So I guess I’m just confused lol. In fact, the biggest complaint about SNW is that the show basically regurgitated story lines from the other shows and not doing enough to stand out on its own. I really liked the first season but I do hope that changes next season.

Paramount is pot committed to SF and SNW. Too bad it’s heretical to even consider broadcast options at this point. The CW is basically dead, SF Academy could’ve landed there. Could they get a Legacy show onto CBS, perhaps? There’s more money in network, and Jeri Ryan might still just barely be a face / name who could fit in with their network stars.

Broadcast TV is in decline, with ad revenue trending down. Blue Bloods, the longtime mainstay of CBS’ Friday night lineup, was only renewed because the producers figured out a way to cut the budget by 25 percent (pay cuts all around). No way something like ST: Legacy would be fit there.

A show in its 13th season (Blue Bloods) automatically costs more than a show in its first. And as expensive as a Star Trek show is relative to typical scripted shows — the cost to create a fake future, plus CGI, makeup FX, etc. — Legacy would have some of its up front cost defrayed (some of the ship sets, some of the costumes already fabricated for Picard). You’re correct that ad buy is in decline as viewership erodes. I am wondering aloud if the licensing they’d get from a network would still bring the project closer to profitability and therefore make more financial sense in the short-term than just deficit spending to drop it on their streaming platform.

Otherwise, there’s not going to be a Legacy-type show until after Strange New Worlds ends or Starfleet Academy is proven to be a flop (which if none of the new shows have been, then that one won’t be either). P+ clearly only has the budget for about 20-25 episodes of live action per calendar year (and some of that winds up being animated content instead of live action, of course) and I just don’t see how this projection comes to fruition in the next 24 months without some outside the box thinking. Kurtzman has control of the franchise through 2026 and Academy and Strange New are higher priorities — that there’s no more streaming money for a third show means there’s almost zero chance of a third show happening contemporaneously with his. Then again, maybe Paramount Accounting and Marketing can get together and figure something out.

Blue Bloods is in its 13th season. That’s way more expensive than a show in its first, even though Treks have greater upfront costs because of all the stuff they need to make for their fake future. In the case of Legacy, some of the sets and costumes have already been fabricated. Just trying to imagine a scenario that could lead to a third show being made because right now P+’s budget is limiting them to two shows at a time. I don’t see this project happening in at least the next 24 months, and I think by then the clamor will have died down. Maybe the marketing and accounting teams at Viacom can put something together to make it make sense, though. I will keep my phaser on skeptical.

Your point about budgets is spot on.
Wall Street is pressuring the streamers to start turning a profit. IIRC, Disney + is not profitable.

A solution might be a Par+ premium service.

For an extra $5 to $10.00 a month, those fees will support Trek and Yellowstone budgets. Period projects, whether in the past or future, are expensive, whereas Young Sheldon is probably significantly less.

Par+ can give premium members early access to the shows/movies as a bonus. The other tier(s) might wait longer to see the episodes.

I would gladly pay a few $$ upcharges, provided it funded more or provided a stable funding source to continue existing Trek shows.
I’d also happily contribute a few extra $$ to help provide low-cost or free Par+ service to veterans, or other deserving marginalized groups.
Star Trek is about hope, and if I can help bring that hope to people whose financial circumstances prevent them from enjoying Par+ content? I can give up a bag of Doritos or a Costa Lotta Latte from my local baristas.

This seems controversial, but it’s not broadcasting anymore, and it’s more like “narrow-casting.” Advertisers covet certain sections of the viewers which are constantly being fragmented as more viewing choice arrives.
In my experience, people either like Star Trek or they don’t.
There need to be more viewers to put Star Trek on broadcast television.
Star Trek has always been revived due to fan demand.
We should consider that it will cost us more $$ to keep it going profitably.
The suits who fund it want a return on investment.

True. I just watch YouTube these days and almost never turn on the TV.

It’s crazy that they’re still pushing the Starfleet Academy idea and haven’t dropped it or put it on hold when Picard 3 got so much positive buzz and goodwill. What is the target audience for this series anyway? Isn’t it the same audience as Prodigy? Or do they see it as a spin-off from Discovery? My guess would be that Academy becomes a limited event series and they start Legacy by 2025.

The Academy show is all about bringing in a young, desirable demographic so they can charge higher ad rates. The Legacy idea may be very popular here, but it seems Paramount has concluded that if they want their streaming service to grow, they need to do the Academy show.

Exactly. It’s a demographic they have not hit yet. They are covering all the bases.

I wish some of my brethren in the group of us older fans would stop being so selfish about their fan service/nostalgia and get the brains back in order…lol

It’s interesting: there was lot of fanservice in this season of Picard. To the point where, honestly, I wished they would have eased up on it a little, especially in the last two episodes. But a lot of fans on this board really loved it. On the other hand, if you go over to TrekBBS, the posters there weren’t nearly as enthusiastic about the fanservice. But you’re right. Paramount+ is a business, and they can’t build their streaming service solely on the backs of legacy ST fans.

The entire season was fanservice to a point where it was completely derivative, from the music to the actors to the visuals. The story was simply a well-written and produced best-of of the 90s Trek era, nothing more. It didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would, because the essence of what was so good about Star Trek, what excited me as a fan, was just there.

That being said, it might be smarter to get the essentials right and then expand from there than to make a 31st century high school drama that could be completely unrecognizable from a brand standpoint. And I don’t necessarily see why a Titan series with the current cast and some additions would stray further from the idea of a potential younger audience than a Starfleet Academy series.

My worry is that Starfleet Academy simply has nothing to offer to anyone. The idea isn’t new. If I remember corretly, it was the original idea way back in 1990, before they pitched The Undiscovered Country, and has been floaring around since then.

Well I do see your point here — obviously, if the SFA series sucks, then they should not make it. Given Kurtzman’s recent decisions and hiring’s though, he is on a roll now with hit after hit and creating a team that produces good Trek for all markets and demographics, so I think he has earned that trust now from the fans. That’s why I welcome something new like SFA.

he is on a roll now with hit after hit

There is a phrase from the Bush pere era that comes to mind: “he was born on third base, and thought he hit a triple.”

It’s a demographic they have not hit yet. They are covering all the bases

Whereas I think it’s high time to jettison this shibboleth that young adults are only interested in young adult genre series.

It’s worth remembering that Christopher Nolan’s cerebral science fiction and comic book movies (Inception et. al) have outperformed everything Star Trek recently, including Tiny Toon Trek.

Series like SMALLVILLE were popular because they were well-acted and expanded the Superman legend.

Rather like “Ohio always decides presidential elections,” this is the kind of marketing folk wisdom that will hold up until it doesn’t.


Just awesome, dude! I am going to use this word now as well.

Yup. Spot on about reasons for Academy show.
That said, am crossing my fingers Legacy will also get a green light.

I think both will happen, the Academy show will most likely just come first, that’s all. But are they done making new Star Trek shows for eternity after that? I’m going to say no. ;)

I think it’s much more likely that Legacy gets a movie — I don’t think it’s going to be a series, probably ever.

I just can’t see Legacy working as a movie. The whole point is to bring back older characters and older storylines and there just isn’t room in a single movie to cover more than one or two story points (for example: the collaboration between the changelings and the other big bad in PIC s3 was a bit underdeveloped ultimately) and more than a handful of Legacy characters. Maybe a two-part movie that covers one DS9 plot and one VOY plot and fuses them together somehow could work? But even then, if that was the one shot these legacy characters are going to get, how do you work in the 10-14 “main” characters from the 90s shows without giving most of them only glorified cameos?

On the other hand, Legacy would work really well as a series. Each episode could have 2-3 guest characters, and their own character-based story, for Seven and the main crew to help solve. Could even go the ENT season 4 route and have several 2- or 3-part stories as needed per season. Later episodes could connect to or benefit from earlier storylines and character/plot developments. Seems tailormade for a series approach.

Well I am not completely opposed to this, my concern is that Matalas would not be the right person for that though. I just did not like his Star Wars/JJA approach to this season, and the fan service/nostalgia elements covered that up this time, but I don’t see that working for the long term on a series.

Bring in someone else then an I would warm up to this more.

Personally I see them doing both, a movie and a show lol. The show will be as you say and will stick to Seven being on the Enterprise but will bring in legacy characters from TNG, DS9 and VOY here and there as PIC season 3 did (well only in theory with DS9 sadly).

But a movie could focus on a character directly like a Janeway, Worf or Kira movie. Something specifically about them, the way Picard was originally sold to us and that Kurtzman said they want to do in the future.

But the Legacy show will be the classic TNG based show being on the Enterprise in the 25th century. Have legacy characters but still lean on the new guys. The movies can be heavily legacy based if they want and could make a lot of ‘event’ stories bringing TNG faces fans really want to see again in their own story.

Right now SH has an embarrassment of riches. They have legacy characters fans are still craving for as both the fanfare and the ratings proved. I am ALL for new things and I still want the Academy show to happen. But I bet you Alex Kurtzman is reading this website and all the others like it and the guy see where the wind is blowing. It’s literally why the TNG cast ended up in the third season as it is.

“What is the target audience for this series anyway? Isn’t it the same audience as Prodigy?”

I have to think that with what’s essentially a live-action college show, they’re aiming older than the Nickelodeon CG cartoon demographic.

I think the other hurdle to a Star Trek Legacy series is that they would likely need to move production out of California unless they get those specialized incentive packages again. But if you move production, it’s harder to get the legacy actors and production personnel to participate. Picard S3 really benefited because of its filming location in close proximity to all of the talent.

Other than Patrick Stewart, production in Ontario isn’t a significant issue.

The legacy cast wouldn’t primarily be TNG cast. Matalas has already run a 4 season show produced in Toronto, and unlike Trek, they didn’t have their own studio and local EPs for production.

Jonathan Frakes is in Toronto regularly as a director already. It’s hours closer for Marina Sirtis. Spiner, Burton, Dorn and McFadden could make the trip for a few weeks here and there.

If they really must do this series, then…

I really don’t need to see, except for occasional cameos, more of Stewart, Spinner, Sirtis, and McFadden.

I would be fine with Dorn in one of the lead roles, and with Frakes and Burton in regularly occurring roles (several eps per season).

I’m genuinely curious as to the history on Starfleet Academy, since it’s a series that they’ve been talking about doing for forever, and whether it’s a concept Paramount committed to and the Discovery production team (who make up a lot of the behind-the-scenes people) are trying to build an idea and characters around it. Or if it was something where someone involved had a great take on it that sold the studio on doing it. And, honestly if I’m being cynical, I could also see Starfleet Academy as a series they’re doing to keep the Discovery production crew employed as a stopgap.

Given the options, I would much rather see Legacy than a Starfleet Academy series, since I feel like what we’re going to get is a young-adult fiction (love triangles and young teens trying to prove themselves) mixed with Top Gun show in the Star Trek universe.

Also, my guess is that if they do announce a Legacy series, they would wait to do it at one of the Star Trek events. It also probably wouldn’t work to do Legacy as a series of movies, given that you have to amortize production costs, and that’s easier to do over 8-10 episodes than individual films (unless you lowball the budget and do crappy production).

And, given how money’s tight, the SFA show allows them to leverage existing assets and fill the show with young, very cheap lead talent and fairly low-cost locally available Canadian talent for recurring roles and guest stars. From a business perspective, it’s almost a no-brainer.

Basically, the Paramount/Star Trek version of doing a cheap CW show. The Star Trek equivalent of doing Gotham Knights.

Basically, yes.

It was originally rumored for CW before CBS sold their stake.

We never saw that. Kurtzman’s always suggested it was for streaming.

It seems more that you and others are spamming your attempts to gatekeep another show that may fit a demographic you personally don’t care about.

As most know here, I’m an older parent of teens. Our kids were avid Voyager fans as preteens but Picard put them right off.

They watch Discovery and SNW but those shows aren’t a great fit for them. Lower Decks and Prodigy get a better follow.

They aren’t looking for old-style CW shows though. I doubt based on Discovery’s high production values that this will be a ‘cheap’ show.

It will benefit from the gorgeous 32nd production design and props already created, lower production costs in CBS own soundstages and tax incentives.

That is however why Paramount has already announced that Picard is the last California-based production. If a 25th century show happens, production will be in Ontario.

Great point.

This makes me wonder: will they stick to a cadets on campus show (essentially a “bottle show” that uses established sets and possibly local Canadian locations) or will their be “training missions” or other scenes that get us international or interplanetary scenes? If the former, yeah, costs could be nice and low, but if they go into space the budget would be higher (or maybe they can use the StageCraft for more planets/locations but still keep the show “grounded”).

Given we just saw and entire season of Star Wars masquerading as Star Trek, Top Gun masquerading as Star Trek seems like a step in the right direction given that would be less fantasy based.

You know what? We get it. You didn’t like this season. You’ve made your opinion clear. But if you feel the need to spam the comment section trying to dismiss any excitement or enthusiasm for a continuation of “Legacy,” go for it if that gets your jollies off.

I am sharing my Star Trek-related comments on this season, just like you. I care about the franchise, and my personal opinion is that P+ should not move forward with the Legacy series right now. You disagree, which is fine, but your emotional outburst is sort of embarrassing for you and I would imagine for others reading it. As a great Trek character once said:

You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing.

PS: I find it kind of silly that when 90% of the comments here seem to want this series, that my comments seem threatening? One therefore might conclude that you don’t have much confidence in you own opinion on this given how uber-defensive you are on this?

LOL you’re the one that seems threatened since you have to come into every comment section and spam it to cry about people liking Picard season 3 too much.


I’m confident in “Legacy” because it’s a show most people actually like. You’re the one that seems out of touch and doesn’t seem to understand Star Trek or Star Trek fans, since like you said 90% of the comments are in support of something that you don’t get. With every comment you prove the point of how out of touch you and the minority here are.

For the sake of argument, if on a given topic, there is a small minority that is out of touch, then what should we think about someone from the vast majority providing defensive, emotional posts that make fun of the minority view, and tries to browbeat them into silence?

I’m confident in “Legacy” because it’s a show most people actually like. 

The show that people “actually like” was TNG.

There is no guaranty that translates into a success for a derivative “Star Trek kids” show. While the second half of the season failed to live up to the hype, it was at least entertaining and allowed us to indulge in some nostalgia. Once Picard & Co. exit stage right, and the LEGACY characters have to stand on their own two feet? I’m much less confident in its staying power.

But if you feel the need to spam the comment section trying to dismiss any excitement or enthusiasm for a continuation of “Legacy,” go for it if that gets your jollies off.

Again, it’s called “literary criticism” (or “pretending we’re Siskel and Ebert,” at least). The surest way for a project to fail is to enforce ideological conformity and groupthink; the origin of the term “groupthink” was literally an attempt to explain the policy failures that lead to the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Once Picard & Co. exit stage right, and the LEGACY characters have to stand on their own two feet? I’m much less confident in its staying power.

I agree — I am not at all confident that Matalas can give us quality Trek when we take away the fan service and nostalgia, which carried this season and covered up a lot of JJA-type weaknesses of Matalas’s storytelling.

The surest way for a project to fail is to enforce ideological conformity and groupthink

For sure!

I do hope they greenlight it, There are so many dangling plot points from seasons one and two, and it would be good for them to be addressed.

Given a Choice of Academy or Legacy. Legacy by a Massive Landslide!!!!!

If they were originally planning to have 3 live action shows simultaneously (SNW, SFA, S31), then it’s a good thing S31 is being downgraded to a movie, to redirect the funding to ST Legacy. I seriously doubt Kurtzman is gonna dump SF Academy.

I don’t think an event movie with an academy award winner is a ‘downgrade’.

In fact, it seems likely that we’ll be getting more one-shots with legacy characters.

I agree though that after 5 years in development, the Academy show will happen. They need to hold onto the younger fanbase that Discovery attracted and build it. Others like me will be happy to have it just because we’re invested in the 32nd century.

Maybe this goes without saying, but the success of SFA will depend on the showrunner. However much the series inherits from DIS in terms of sets, costuming, setting, etc. (which, minus the flame shooters, is generally very high quality), I don’t think I will like a series that follows DIS story approach. If their showrunner has a different approach, I would hope it would be different enough to me interesting to me.

The showrunner worked on Nancy Drew, which had more positive critical takes than its high school show competitors. She also worked on The Magicians as a writer under Myers.

All this suggests it will be a cut above CW norms certainly.

I’m personally hoping that some of the excellent 32nd century recurring characters will appear, particularly Kovich.

I don’t think an event movie with an academy award winner is a ‘downgrade’.

Holy George Clooney as the Caped Crusader, Batman!

The whole “throw multiple series at a wall and see what sticks” is seriously diluting the Star Trek brand. It is making it more difficult, not less, for new entrants to become fans. Look up the term “cereal aisle effect.”

Mainstream critics were far less enthusiastic about the PICARD finale than people who have already drunk the kool-aid, and even among the latter I would say reviews were mixed. They should focus on doing one series well, rather than, what, five mediocre series.

That 1990s marketing analogy fails when the customer is being cued and funnelled to the group of cereal boxes that match their established tastes.

We’re even not in the same supermarket market anymore.

What’s been offered to my teens by the algorithms doesn’t look anything like a wall of Trek.

That 1990s marketing analogy fails when the customer is being cued and funnelled to the group of cereal boxes that match their established tastes.

First off, I fail to understand the importance of cereal aisle effect (allegedly) being a 1990s theory. Pasteur’s germ theory of disease is about 200 years old; it’s still valid, even if we understand it much more deeply than he did.

Second, the theory clearly remains relevant today. See, e.g., BOUNDED RATIONALITY, a 2020 book about the subject authored by (among others) an aptly-named Rafaella Misuraca.

Third, setting the grunge era aside, I’m not sure that your caveat applies. Cereal takes up an entire aisle of a store; but even if you cue and funnel, you’re still presenting consumers with, say, a third of an aisle to peruse. That’s still quite a bit of choice overload, particularly for basic products.

Finally, in a note adjacent but perhaps still separate from the cereal aisle effect: there’s a lot of evidence that once a phenomenon becomes the domain of hard-core consumers, it becomes “mysterious” and inaccessible to new consumers.

A few years ago, I read an interesting article about the market for bicycles. The gist of the article was that non-bicyclists liked the idea of riding bikes, but that they were bewildered when they actually entered a bike store and interacted with hard-core bicyclists. Part of this was the cereal aisle effect again — they were confronted by choice overload what with the number of bikes available and how to customize them — but it went beyond that. Newbies felt intimidated by the community of hard-core bike enthusiasts, which they felt was unwelcoming.

There was a good INSEAD case study that also identified this phenomenon as adversely affecting the wine industry. Again, lots of people were enthusiastic enough about wine in the abstract (your teens no doubt excepted!), but hard-core oenophiles, and choice overload, turned them off. Like Geordi LaForge — who felt Picard was judging his unrefined palate in “The Bounty” — real-life new wine drinkers felt judged by arrogant, hardcore oenophiles. The yellow tail brand of wine (note the hip non-capitalization) successfully tried to capitalize on this problem by narrowing the number of choices available and simplifying them.

Frankly, I think all of Secret Hideout would do very well to read that case study, because they’re positioning Star Trek in the opposite way of what yellow tail did. They’re expanding the number of product offerings and making Star Trek all about inside baseball. To understand what’s going on in LOWER DECKS, you practically have to have a degree in Trekspertise; you need more than a passing familiarity with about 20 years’ worth of prior shows. PICARD and SNW aren’t a whole lot better. This has got to be intimidating to new fans.

Star Trek conventions similarly ought to go out of their way to welcome new fans; as things stand, they really don’t. Every year or two I go to a big ideas festival that takes place annually over new year’s. It was founded about 30 years ago, and there’s a huge network of people who go every year. This has the potential to be really clubby and unwelcoming to newcomers (who have to be nominated to attend, not that it’s a huge barrier if you’re a decent networker). But the organizers go out of their way to combat this; they give first-time participants a different colored nametag, an “orientation” on the day before, a special day camp for their kids, etc. It helps that everyone who attends is a panelist, not just an audience member.

I really would like Star Trek Legacy…

Me too

Maybe it is time for Kurtzman to take a walk..

to the commissary to get lunch. Otherwise hush.

I still can’t believe Seven is the captain of the Enterprise. How cool is that? I want to see more of the characters for sure. Ashlei sharpe chestnut and Ed Speleers were great together. Great chemistry between the two and fabulous actors. I want to see how that develops. Sign me up for Star Trek: Legacy

I second that emotion!

It’s amazing. Yeah most of us saw it coming by episode 2 but for it to happen is still so damn cool!

I’m still on a high about the whole thing, even with my nit picks. I haven’t felt this way probably since DS9 ended. I just really loved this season overall and yeah, I want more of it.

What a simple decision, just cancel making Starfleet Academy

It’s not that simple.
A show typically is in development long before it gets announced. To abandon a project is expensive, and it’s throwing money away.
It also alienates talented people who work in front of and behind the camera.
If they take this route, Paramount might have trouble attracting and keeping talented people.

Pass on young and the restless in space outside of some grander story/plot. TNG, VOY were terrible outside season 3 where they got an injection of a TOS movie epic arc. DS9 had the Dominion War that it was good, but can you redo that?
If I want to see a starship exploring space I’ll watch SNW where starships aren’t a dime a dozen, the bridge looks awesome and there is more unexplored space with lessons to be learned.
Picard S3 worked only because it had a real cool plot, the Borg getting be to evil again to the point they manipulate changlings with a path to completely replacing organics in the form of Robo-Picard, Picard ending up compromised by the Borg explaining why he ditched his friends and built an evacuation fleet out of robots programmed to act as slaves, Crusher not trusting Picard enough to let him know he had a kid, the “new” Starfleet being thrown out and replaced by TOS movie style ships, that was all awesome!
So on Legacy, if it is TNG continued then no, but I’d be open to a Season 3 type arc where we get more epic TOS movie type stories. Sure, throw in some legacy crew but get a good epic story. I don’t know do they have to rebuild starfleet because so many were lost, maybe elements of the changlings conquer a part of the galaxy and start reverse engineering both robo-Picard and Borg tech that you could have living starships/changlings in space, something epic that you happen to need a lot of these old characters brought back (like Season 3) than I am in!
I DO love the neo-Constitution class crusier though, just give her a better bridge. I’m open to Seven of Nine or whoever as long as they get a cool story. Jack Crusher also should have some PTSD as he, like his Dad, physically assualted half of Starfleet, that guy could get a cool redemption story.
Yeah, I cried about the Enterprise when i was 6 years old watching Star Trek 3 but I am 40 now and a Dad that I am not going to bawl like a baby on seeing some fake nonsensical bridge with some old character. And I don’t think new viewers are going to as well. Now that being said, I am open there to being a niche of 90s people that will just cry all the time on seeing so-and-so with so-and-so, so maybe there is a niche series or movie?!
BTW, anyone watch the Starship launch test?!? Now THAT was epic!

Starfleet Academy will be dead on arrival in my opinion. Bin it now, before too much time and effort is sunk into it. There’s a reason that Picard Season 3 had the fanbase energised. Let them eat cake indeed.

In-universe, Raffi and Seven could easily get Elnor on board (I am assuming he’s still alive until such time as dialog says he isn’t). I’d hope any absence would be down to Evan Evagora’s schedule or desire, rather than the writers simply not caring.

Likewise. I’d like some spotlight on the first Romulan in Starfleet. Plus I think Elnor and Mura could have some interesting interactions, given how Elnor’s an outsider several times over, but Mura seems to have managed some degree of cultural assimilation.

He’s all wrong for the chemistry of a Legacy show. He rightfully remains tucked away in the back of the toybox. Maybe one day he can do an episode or two.

Why is money an issue here? Is their budget being eaten up by the S31 movie? Or is it something else that hasn’t been announced yet? I don’t know how much SNW costs but SFA shouldn’t be that much. We actuallycan have all three plus the movie.

Paramount seems to be under dire monetary pressure and they need to cut back on streaming expenses. Unfortunately, they will have to choose between SNW and LEG… because Kurtzman is not going to let go of SFA and they need younger audiences…

It’s a really boring reason. Money isn’t “free” anymore (interest rates > 0%) and so firms are being pressured by all shareholders to reduce costs to increase profitability / lower debt burdens so that their shares gain enough value to be sold and cover losses in other areas of the portfolio.

Also, after all these years, long-term profitability in streaming remains unclear.

Sad but true.

I think an easier solution is to do a legacy movie and then see how that goes given it won’t have the fan service and nostalgia that was the main point of this last season of Picard.

I’m sorry, I missed the memo where Star Trek and all other IP material released in the 21st century were not fan service and nostalgia plays? This is a weird argument to make. Academy, Discovery, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Strange New… all playing on nostalgia, all indulging in fan service — Paramount is counting on fans to save their streaming service. And Star Trek has been aping Star Wars since at least JJ’s 2009 and when they’re not doing that, they’re folding in Marvel elements. It’s a cosmic gumbo of rehashing stuff people did better last century.

Yeah, they are ALL nostalgia bait lol. SNW, LDS, PIC, PRO, DIS and the Kelvin movies all played on nostalgia and fan service, some just more than others. The irony is I thought DIS was going to play that hand the hardest once season 2 came around but being thrown in the far future is what made that show actually stand apart from the rest.

But all the other shows are nothing but fan service. Why is Kirk on a show dealing with a ship he doesn’t take command for at least another 5 years and oddly hanging out with a Khan descendant? Fan service. The same reason Burnham is Spock’s sister. The same reason Admiral Janeway will be in command of the Voyager A to find Chakotay on Prodigy next season. The same reason Mariner is friends with Riker and served on DS9 on Lower Decks. The same reason Seven is now Captain of the Enterprise G. It’s all the same thing lol.

All these shows (and movies) lives and dies by legacy characters and they are all clearly pushing harder on them the longer these shows goes, not less.

Paramount knows what it’s doing and why I won’t be shocked if a Legacy show happens sooner than later now that fans had a taste and want more…much more. ;)

Why is Kirk on a show dealing with a ship he doesn’t take command for at least another 5 years and oddly hanging out with a Khan descendant?

Don’t forget his brother on the crew roster, too.

Yeah…don’t remind me.

But Picard S3 was fan service and nostalgia ON STEROIDS, obviously — it was a freaking reunion show.

If you like your Star Wars in your Star Trek, good for you. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t correctly point out when I SW in Trek.

But you gotta admit, it’s so funny how see a number of the same fans here who always complained about the SW elements in the JJA Trek movies now sweeping that all under the rug given we just got all that in Picard S3…lol

DATA: Reporting as ordered, Captain.
PICARD: Well, Data, as you can see, we’re back where it all started.
DATA: We must leave immediately, sir.
DATA: Any further delay would put us all at grave risk.
PICARD: Why? What is the source of that risk? The energy field?
DATA: I cannot say.
PICARD: Data, you sound as if you’re stuck in a feedback loop. You certainly can say. You have free will, you have a choice.
DATA: My silence is not by choice, sir.
PICARD: Not by choice? Are you somehow being controlled by that force? Did Geordi miss something when he examined you?
DATA: Geordi’s examination was exemplary.
PICARD: Then why are you compelled to disobey my orders? How? During the missing day, were you contacted by Starfleet? Did they order you to conceal the truth from us?
DATA: I cannot answer that. We must leave, sir.

Awesome — Yeah, I get that! :-)

In Picard S3, Data Calrissian did a great job with those crazy awesome piloting skills getting the Millennium-D into the center of the Death Cube to destroy it just as the Picardwalker father and son team clashed, but then shrugged off the negative controlling force and came to together to destroy Borg Queen Palpatine….all in parallel with Han and Princess Seven doing the the important support mission in the same system.

CRUSHER: I’m sorry to call you here so early, but we couldn’t wait until oh seven hundred hours. We think we may have an explanation for the odd occurrences around here. Commander.
LAFORGE: This is going to sound pretty wild. Somehow, we’ve entered what seems to be a temporal causality loop. We think we’re stuck in a particular fragment in time, and we’ve been repeating that same fragment over and over again.
TROI: Is this what’s causing our déjà vu?
CRUSHER: Yes, but it’s more than that. In déjà vu, you only think you’re repeating events. We actually are.
LAFORGE: Our theory is this. Every time the loop begins again, everything resets itself, and starts all over. We don’t remember anything that happened before, so each time through the loop, we think it’s the first.
RIKER: You mean we could have come into this room, sat at this table and had this conversation a dozen times already?
LAFORGE: A dozen, a hundred, it’s impossible to tell. We could have been trapped here for hours, days, maybe years.
CRUSHER: If what we’re saying is true, those voices I heard might have been echoes from previous loops.
LAFORGE: It’s the same thing with the phase shift in my visor. After-images in time.
PICARD: If you’re right about this, how did it happen? How did we get there?
DATA: I have a hypothesis that may explain that, Captain. I have analysed the recording Doctor Crusher made. Most of it is quite ordinary. One hundred fifty discussions about ship operations, two hundred fifty two conversations of a personal nature, five couples engaged in romantic encounters.
PICARD: Your point, Mister Data?
DATA: There is evidence of some sort of disaster aboard the Enterprise, severe enough that the Captain ordered all hands to abandon ship. I have isolated three segments of the recording that are crucial.
WORF [OC]: A highly localised distortion of the space-time continuum.
DATA [OC]: Collision course. Impact in thirty six seconds.
PICARD [OC]: All hands, abandon ship! Repeat, all hands abandon

Dude, that entire exchange is a metaphor for this entire season we just watched. LOL, THANKS !!!

This is a weird argument to make. Academy, Discovery, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Strange New… all playing on nostalgia, all indulging in fan service 

Right, and most of them were pretty lousy. And of those that weren’t (e.g., the first half of PICARD, “Momento Mori”), the high points came when they tried to stretch the characters, rather than amp up the nostalgia.

A few years ago several major streaming services wanted to come out with a bang and spent All The Money on flashy things. A few years later when it’s clear they’re not all going to be as successful as Netflix was when it was basically a monopoly, ambitions are being scaled back.

If you are listening to the fans, forget about Starfleet Academy. The disco 32nd century has sucked and a watered down version of it is even worse an idea.

Why didn’t they just cancel DSC and do a 2hr wrapup movie to tie the loose ends? d

Most likely because of contracts with the Canadian Government. They provide a substantial tax break for TV/film production in the country.
There is probably a provision for clawbacks should an agreement end early.
This is mainly to keep the behind-the-camera people employed.

No thanks, one season of Star Wars masquerading as Star Trek was enough for me.

The loudest voices on social media have never represented the fan base, and certainly not the paying subscribers. Most people watch and get on with their lives. Go to the complaint threads and you’d think every product breaks all the time. If they listened to social media, they would have cancelled DS9 and VOY, Discovery after one episode, no SNW, no LWD (it got picked to pieces before it aired), no Prodigy, Picard would have lasted an episode, so no season three and no Legacy.

The send-off is done and the closure for TNG that many thought was still needed was provided in spades, so let’s please move on now.

Matalas running a show with the TNG nostalgia/fan service element removed would be a disaster. We’ve had two Star Wars directors/showrunners in the last 14 years now — JJA and Matalas — that’s enough Star Wars masquerading as Star Trek for me for quite awhile.

Time to move on.

being real. I don’t trust him with DS9 characters after that season. But if this gets made I’ll just have to see how it goes.

Yeah, you know, I’d be willing to give him the second movie (after S31) to do something with Legacy — then we can test whether he can do true Star Trek stories when the fan service/nostalgia elements aren’t covering up all the weaknesses and SW elements in his storytelling. And only if he proves he can do that would I then trust him with a full series.

who is clamoring for a Starfleet Academy show INSTEAD of a Legacy show?! they really screwed up that announcement. NO ONE would rather see tilly and company in the 32nd century over Seven and the G in the 25th century.

cancel Academy and greenlight Legacy! Kathleen Kennedy and Disney announce and cancel new SW projects almost daily why can’t Kurtzman and Paramount+?

also i like the idea that Shaw comes back by having Seven donate her nanoprobes to revive him like she did w/ Neelix on VOY. that would be an interesting arc for him w/ Wolf 359…hating the borg and then being saved by their nanoprobles. but then again what would his role be? they could go artsy fartsy and have shaw be in Seven’s subconscious like Six was w/ Baltar in BSG or the dad in Six Feet Under

Are we sure about that? Discovery wouldn’t have run as long as it has if people didn’t watch it. It’s more reasonable to assume that Tilly and Discovery are wildly popular. These decisions don’t get made on a lark. There’s hefty market research and financial modeling behind this greenlight. Paramount thinks this is going to work not because of their gut but because of the data. Article comments might not reflect reality!


I think ‘wildly’ is probably too strong of a word lol. But yes, I do agree people obviously watch the show. But let’s also be honest, no one is really crying that it’s ending either. Even people who call themselves fans seem fine thats its ending; probably because there are other Trek shows they still like on.

All I know is I haven’t seen a single online petition to keep Discovery going the same way people want the Legacy show (and it has a petition lol). As far as the Academy show, do I think people will watch it? It has Star Trek in the title, so yes lol. But do I think people will be excited for it on the level the Legacy show would? Not even close and I’m a supporter of the Academy show as well. But to me it’s like SNW and S 31 again, one is a no brainer, the other is controversial by its existence alone. It was pretty easy to see why SNW is starting a third season and S 31 ended up a TV movie.

Do I think the same thing will happen here, at the moment I don’t. BUT I was also the guy that was convinced we would not see a Pike show anytime soon because I thought they were so confident over making S 31 happen and I was so happy to be so wrong lol.

Could history repeat itself? Sure. Will it. we’ll see.

You do not speak for all fans.

I just sat through a season of Return of the Picard that I enjoyed for the TNG closure/fan service elements, and held my nose up at the Trek masquerading as Star Wars elements. I can live with that and accept the joy from the reunion elements that I got from it…but that is all I need in terms of more Star Wars-like stuff from Matalas.

I certainly do not need to see “JJ Matalas’s” version of The Picard Awakens in the near future.

Now thanks. YES, I WOULD PREFER Starfleet Academy to Legacy.

Matalas should make a career move to Disney/SW — he’d be great doing SW streaming series, and I wish him the best.

Jeeez… Matalas isn’t JJ, he’s Dave Filoni, our saviour… And yeah, Star Trek doesn’t have to masquerade as Star Wars or vice versa because they both are the same genre: space opera! I have no issues with them becoming even more alike. Trek has never been hard sci fi à la The Expanse and that’s a great thing. It’s a colorful space western…

From one dude to another, I am truly happy for you personally that you are getting exactly what you want for Star Trek, even if it differs from what I am looking for.

Also I’m wondering. What’s being done to bring in more of the representation that we’re losing with Discovery. Yes blah blah blah wah Disco sucks because it exists I don’t really effing care about how people feel about disco. This is not a comment to discuss that, you have everywhere else to whine about it.

But you do realize, that with Disco ending, so ends the only representation for gay men in the entire franchise. There are gay men in no other show, just ones that the actors wanted to be gay but weren’t allowed to actually canonly say it like Malcolm Reed and Garak. The only trans rep goes with it too.

Every time I latch onto a new character and go “that one, I want that one to be romantically interested in other men”, they die. So I keep waiting for more representation beyond Paul Stamets and Hugh Culber.

The Academy show will almost certainly prioritize representation and if it doesn’t there’s no rational reason for its existence.

True but it sure would be nice to have representation in other shows too.

And you can bet that this is going to be another solid reason why I believe we are NOT going to get a Legacy series. We maybe get a TV movie or two, but I seriously doubt this series ever happens — it’s too much targeted at an older Trek fan demographic, plus other issues like the diversity challenge you mention and the Stars Wars like storytelling that Matalas likes are more good reasons to never do it.

Regarding in more detail your point on gay characters, I was tremendously disappointed that Seven and Raffi were not shown as a gay couple this season — they totally back-tracked that, and at the end of this season, you get the impression that Worf is now interested in Seven (which probably gives relief to the Red State types watching the show). WTF? WHY?

Being real again. I fully think disco haters are why we don’t see that rep anywhere else. I know people here don’t intend for it to be that way but I fully think that the backlash was also interpreted as against the characters in the show and the representation that they provided. It’s unfortunate but that’s my main theory for it.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. It’s sad.

I don’t agree with this. We got multiple bisexual and non-binary characters in the years since Culber and Stamets were introduced, and I don’t think that would have happened if there was a concerted effort to avoid a purported backlash to having two gay men in the main cast of a show. You don’t create a character like Captain Angel if you’re kowtowing to that kind of pressure. And to be frank, I didn’t see that much of a backlash to the show’s representation until season 3. I could easily be misconstruing a prejudicial agenda in what criticism Burnham and Georgiou were getting in seasons 1 and 2, but didn’t see that with Stamets and Culber. If anything, it was Culber being a Bury Your Gays trope at first that got people riled up as far as I could see.

I am reserving my outrage about there not being enough gay men in Star Trek for the older shows and for after Section 31 and the Starfleet Academy show’s cast and characters are announced.

Well if one is going to bizarrely confine this to gay men and a transsexual character and exclude gay women, then you can say that since it avoids the elephant of the room of P+ inexplicably retreating from the Seven-Raffi relationship.

I think the rather obvious concern here is that Matalas, who is really trying to get his Legacy show greeen-lighted, didn’t want to take the risk of having his lead (Captain Seven) being focused on by media and the anti-woke morons as gay.

That’s why this backing off the one main character lesbian relationship THEY HAD ALREADY SET UP is so inexplicably disappointing. And no, we should not sweep it under the rug because there are two gay men in a single show and one trans character that shows up once a season on one series. Trek can do better than that, and gay women should have some presence in the franchise — or at least freaking not reverse them to straight (which is foreshadowed with Worf/Raffi for sure).

My post was in reply to someone who was lamenting a lack of gay male characters in Star Trek, you can refer back to that post for context. Also, FYI transsexual is an outdated term.

Again, you are seeing what you want to see, saying Matalas is erasing a gay relationship from Star Trek and replacing it with a straight one which I still cannot for the life of me see at all. If a gay couple isn’t allowed to break up like adults but still display loyalty and affection for one another, then that’s a ridiculous standard to hold gay relationships to. The fact that they were a couple was not ignored, Raffi and Worf were an interesting pairing, and not in a romantic way, you are actually the only person I’ve seen pick up on that.

If a gay couple isn’t allowed to break up like adults

Dude, that is the freaking problem — P+ was too chicken-shit risk adverse to even show us much of their relationship with each other in the first place, which makes the breakup that much more laughable and useless to anyone who cares about LBGTQ representation on Star Trek.

FYI, my cousin refers to themself as “transsexual,” so I will be sure to tell them when I see them next that Ian on Trekmovie has proclaimed that that term should no longer be used. LMFAO

I think you are confusing “risk-averse” with plan ol’ remedial writing. Few heterosexual relationships in current Trek are any better than what we’ve gotten with Seven/Raffi, and I think you are making a leap to cast unnecessary aspersions on the producers’ intentions.

The term “transsexual” is no longer in regular use, and is far more personal than “transgender.” It should only be used if an individual identifies that way, as in the case of your cousin. It should NOT be used as a blanket term, and no character or actor in Star Trek has been identified as such. I work with advocacy groups and I’ve done PSAs for LGBT organizations, and that is the official guidance we’ve adhered to. Our community doesn’t have a set of commandments, so anyone can choose to ignore this advice, but I’m simply giving you an FYI.

Well you can work with all the organizational leaders you want to, but I have family members, workmates and many friends who fit within the LBGTQ+ life-space (“LGBT” is about 10 years out of date, BTW), and that term is alive and well in todays discussions between diverse people in real-world conversations. I will be sure to let them know though that these organizations and their consultants aren’t that supportive of them using this term anymore…lol

And I think you are making a leap to cast unnecessary aspersions on the producers’ intentions.

First, budgets are constrained, and the BS anti-w-oke movement is gaining traction in the business world with some corporations reducing their risk, so yeah, I am conjecturing that the P+ producers and suits may have gotten weaker on the diversity front in Trek due to all this. I am not claiming this is a fact, but given the inexplicable cancelling of the Raffi/Seven relationship when it has just been started certainly gives one pause. It it quacks like a duck, flies like a duck and swims like a duck, it is most probably a duck. Secondly, your comment gives me the impression that you think I am personally attacking these producers — no, but I am realizing the business pressures they are under and I do think they could have done more here to at least let that gay relationship between two key characters continue, especially given that the Stamets-Culber couple is going away given DSC has been cancelled — so I agree with Gritizens 100% on this!

Look it up if you don’t believe me about that word, ffs. And please tamp down your condescension towards me, it’s totally unnecessary. I didn’t try to belittle you and expect to be treated the same way in kind. I was using my real-life experience as a professional and a friggin’ human being in the LGBT+ community to give you hard-learned information. I once watched a 50 year old gay man get his ass handed to him by a 30 year old GMHC board member for using the word “transsexual” instead of the more-inclusive “transgender” in a line of copy, so there is also a generational component to it.

I think your conjecture about the business pressures Paramount faces flies in the face of the existence of characters like Captain Angel, Mariner’s onscreen relationship and the very fact that Seven and Raffi became a couple to begin with, to say nothing of how Discovery is stacked with LGBT+ (don’t lecture a gay man on how he abbreviates his community please) actors and characters.

Picard is still a tv show which has story elements to satisfy. Keeping Raffi in the show but trying a long distance relationship or being on the Titan complicates the story compared to giving her demons to fight with only Worf as a foil and Seven having Shaw as her quasi-antagonist. It’s clean, and it has a purpose. A gay relationship isn’t holier than any other in terms of needing to be kept whole despite how it might disrupt storytelling. Seven and Raffi were a rocky couple, they broke up, Raffi stayed at her side in the final crisis, now they serve on the same ship and anything could happen. It’s not The L Word, but it’s also not abject cowardice.

Discovery hasn’t even aired its last episode yet and SFA hasn’t begun casting. All this conjecture is just calcifying preconceptions and insinuating things that haven’t necessary come to pass and do a disservice to these producers based on flimsy circumstantial evidence. So you can support his position, it’s a laudable one, but turning that into the symptom of a sky is falling representation problem is not logical or productive.

You misunderstand me. I am talking about real people in real conversations, not policy wonks and organizational meetings. And I was trying to by funny with my quips, but obviously that did not come across (no offense, but you seem tightly wound with zero sense of humor when we have these back-and-forths on any topic?). But hey, for coming across as being condescending, I apologize.

For the rest of this, we are going to have to agree to disagree. And with my comments above on Stamet’s-Culber with DSC’s cancellation and Raffi-Seven’s relationship being inexplicably terminated, I also answered the question you had for me in your other post…so for that, we are going to have to agree to disagree as well.

I am also fully supportive of Gritizen’s points on this, but if you disagree with some of that, please take it up with him.

I did. You chimed in with your typical cheerleader schtick and replied to things I said selectively.

Thanks for the half-hearted apology. You came across as dismissive of my experience and worth as a source of information earlier and I found that to be disrespectful. You referred to Captain Angel is a way which the character or actress has never been identified, so I was trying to give a helpful FYI. That it happens to align with what GLAAD of all organizations advises is food for thought. Doesn’t change that plenty of individuals happily identify as transsexual.

It could have been a much more polite conversation. We just do not have the same sense of humor, I often detect a sort of gleeful mean-spiritedness in your posts and that’s not my cup of Earl Grey. It’s a big universe, I’m fine with dialing back on replying to you, that will save us conflicts I’m sure.

OK, 100% apology for all that. I don’t take discussions here on a Trek fan web site as seriously as some, but I need to be more sensitive to those people like you who do.

Doesn’t change the fact that there aren’t any more right now. It’s 7 years since Discovery started, we had multiple shows since and there’s no other LGBT men anywhere. They really just have no excuse. And yeah sure they could announce those cast and characters and tell us absolutely nothing about them so we could get hyped for there maybe being a gay man among them and watch it turn out to be the same old as always: there’s one to three couples between a man and a woman and everyone else just isn’t given a relationship. And maybe if we’re lucky a woman will be bisexual.

What’s stopping them from taking a guy character in a show they have running now and saying that he’s bi or gay. Literally nothing, that’s what. They can give us more right now. They just don’t want to.

What’s stopping them from taking a guy character in a show they have running now and saying that he’s bi or gay. Literally nothing, that’s what. They can give us more right now. They just don’t want to.

Exactly! Kid Rock shoots some beer cans and Bud fires people — the anti-woke morons seem to gaining traction right now. Trek fans should not be satisfied with two gay men in supporting role and a trans person who shows up once a year.

Right. Trek can and should be less willing to play it safe here.

It’s 2023 and there are gay male characters all over television. In shows. In Hallmark Christmas movies. In advertising. It is not a controversial decision anymore to include one in a show anymore, certainly not more than having non-binary or transgender characters or actors, which Trek has admirably embraced doing. If we were to compare the number of LGBT+ characters in Star Trek right now against the world’s population, I’m pretty sure Trek would come out an ahead in terms of representation of demographics.

The fact of the matter is that Culber and Stamets are still carrying the torch for the gay male demo and Discovery isn’t ending until next year. I just don’t have the same burning desire to see gay or bisexual male characters in more of the shows, not unless there’s a great reason for it besides just “Because.” It could easily feel like tokenism if it’s not done right and meaningfully, something that happened with Gray IMO.

I’m not saying it’s not worth pressing TPTB for another gay male character, but I prefer not to cast aspersions that this demo is being intentionally excluded again. Not yet.

Sorry, but I am backing Gritizens 100% on this one. As he said:

Trek can and should be less willing to play it safe here.

And he has summed up the problem in one sentence. We really don’t need to make it more complex than that.

It is what it is! Gritizens, well said!

How are Lower Decks, Picard, Discovery and Strange New Worlds playing it safe when it comes to LGBT representation? Gritizen’s thesis that you are cheerleading is based around there only being two gay male characters in the current crop of shows. That’s a perfectly reasonable thing to be critical of, but you need to back up the argument that Star Trek as a whole is playing it safe when there are so many LGBT actors and characters overall in those 4 series. Otherwise your “Well saids!” ring as hollow as usual.

Poorly said.

(I’m joking!)

Worf interested in Seven? Where did you get that idea from? I don’t believe the Seven and Raffi’s relationship was back-tracked. They were at “it’s complicated” in season 2, and in season 3 there was simply no room for that story. Doesn’t mean there’s no story to tell there, just not at that time. I’m sure if Legacy happens with them, they’ll go there. Not sure I feel it’s a good idea though, for Raffi to be number 1.

I meant that last scene with him and Raffi, so Raffi, not Seven, sorry.

Thank you for that correction. I still don’t see it. She calls him a friend and he doesn’t seem sad about that. It’s a mentor/mentee relationship.

I would encourage you to watch the final scene between them again and look at the sort of confused pause and close up of Worf’s facial expressions — I certainly took that as showing his feelings were Raffi were more than friends/mentor, and I think Matalas in foreshadowing what he wants to do with these characters in Legacy, if it ever happens.

I did. I 100% do not see what you see in that scene.

OK, fair enough — we both interpret it differently then.

I was tremendously disappointed that Seven and Raffi were not shown as a gay couple this season…WTF? WHY?

I suspect it’s because they wanted to be able to present Raffi as Seven’s first officer with a straight face. “This is someone with whom, years ago, I had a short-term flirty relationship with for a few weeks” is not itself particularly realistic or good leadership, but perhaps at least less disqualifying than “I’m sleeping with my first officer.”

What? I did not see the Worf/Seven thing at all. If anything, his humorous line to Raffi acknowledging that she and Seven have a fraught romantic relationship reinforces the two women’s bond.

And I don’t agree with any of your reasons why a Legacy show isn’t a good idea:

Who cares if the demographic is older? It’s a streaming series and a 60 year-old’s $10/month is worth exactly the same as a 25 year-old’s.

There is zero reason a Legacy show can’t be diverse and representative. All Trek series have ethnically diverse casts and Seven and Raffi being revealed as bisexual isn’t something a series starring both of them would ever hide. There’s no basis for surmising that a Legacy show would not acknowledge or include other groups like gay men, and Ensign Esmar is non-binary.

And the Star Wars criticism is difficult to countenance as something which makes business sense for Paramount to consider. I agree with you that borrowing/copying from Star Wars isn’t great for a Trek shows’ creative bonafides, but again there’s no reason to think a Legacy series would do that once more. And even if they did, what is Paramount going to say? “Oh no, you’re copying from the most successful sci-fi franchise of all time, one that paved the way for TMP and JJ Abrams used to propel his Trek films to 9 figure box office grosses. Don’t do that!”

And the Star Wars criticism is difficult to countenance as something which makes business sense for Paramount to consider. I agree with you that borrowing/copying from Star Wars isn’t great for a Trek shows’ creative bonafides, but again there’s no reason to think a Legacy series would do that once more. And even if they did, what is Paramount going to say? “Oh no, you’re copying from the most successful sci-fi franchise of all time, one that paved the way for TMP and JJ Abrams used to propel his Trek films to 9 figure box office grosses. Don’t do that!”

So given that, I am sure you would agree with me then that many of the same fans here who criticized the JJA movies for having too many SW element, but who are so conveniently silent now on this (i.e. giving it a “free pass”), are total freaking hypocrites?

Sure. But who cares? The appeal of entertainment is in finding something to latch on to that speaks to you. That can easily override deficiencies elsewhere in a movie or show, and who is to say that the way that tips the scale for someone isn’t valid?

Matalas oversaw a show which brought back a bunch of TNG and Voyager characters with dignity, lovebombed us with nostalgia nuggets, and managed to squeeze st least a couple actual quality episodes and some promising new characters in in the process. Your mileage may vary as to whether that tipped the scales for you, but I gave up on a purity test long ago for enjoying entertainment. There’s no science to it and there’s no prize for not being a hypocrite if you find enough in something that you love.


Cool, thanks!

So childish.

To be fair gay and lesbian representation can still happen on the Legacy show. We obviously know about Seven and Raffi, but there can certainly be other gay, trans and non-binary characters on that show too. SNW doesn’t have the representation DIS has either but the sparks are there with Captain Angel and Chapel. And I have a feeling we will see more of it next season too.

But yes, I don’t think anyone can argue that Discovery hasn’t done it the most or the best. It is definitely a reason people have turned off from that show and that it’s too ‘woke’ (ugh), but that show is ending soon anyway. So yes the Academy show can certainly take up the mantle but it doesn’t mean SNW and the Legacy show can’t pick up the slack either.

I don’t know about Chapel and Captain Angel but they’ve kinda hinted Number One and Erica Ortegas. Which is good, more representation for lesbians is always good.

But since straight people are sure represented in every single show then why can’t gay men and lesbians also be represented in more than one. (Although lesbians kinda have been.) What’s stopping them from saying Boimler is bisexual. Or Pike or… Wow we’re kinda limited on men to pick in live action shows right now. Spock would be nice but too risky probably although I would perfectly willing to take that risk. Which is why I ended up latching on to Liam Shaw and onto Hemmer because making them gay or bisexual would be much less of a risk, they’re new characters.

Captain Angel is trans (but not a main cast member obviously but we know will be back at least one more episode). Chapel was hinted at being bi, but I suspect that won’t go anywhere since they are obviously digging into the ‘romance’ with Spock next season.

And yeah, Number One and Ortegas could be lesbians. I would be OK with that lol.

As for other issues, I hear you obviously. It is funny practically every show minus Prodigy seem to have one lesbian or bi woman on them, but no gay men. I guess I’m saying the obvious but probably because it’s easier to accept women as gay in society. Again it’s one of the things I think Discovery got right. They came out the gate with a full on gay romance between two men, but that’s probably due to Fuller running the show at the time and was adamant gay characters will be there. But they have kept to that and introduce others. I think Discovery is a really bad show but it’s one positive is at least it’s representation.

But hopefully the other shows will catch up a little more in time.

I really hope they do.

I forgot that Captain Angel was trans. Oops.

Captain Angel is sexy, smart and dangerous regardless of the pronoun. I hope we see more of that character.

Also, anyone paying attention to the trailer can see that Ortegas has a thing for Kirk this season, and we already have established Number One is her mentor/parent figure.

I think you mean La’an.

Whoops, yes, my mistake. Thanks for catching that, my friend.

They’ve kinda hinted Number One and Erica Ortegas. Which is good, more representation for lesbians is always good.

These people are COMMAND CREW in a MILITARY ORGANIZATION. Straight, gay, or bi, they shouldn’t be sleeping with each other, full stop.

Nobody said anything about sleeping with each other. And that’s never stopped Trek when it comes to straight couples. So if you have a problem with people wanting to see relationships in Trek, take it up with the fans that want straight relationships instead of just the LGBT fans.

How many straight couples in Star Trek have been sleeping with each other?

– Picard and Nella Darren similarly decided AGAINST having a relationship in “Lessons,” very much for the textbook reason that the captain should not be sleeping with subordinates.

– Picard and Crusher decided AGAINST having a relationship in “Attached.”

– Riker and Troi had a *past* relationship in TNG. (This was admittedly not so post-NEMESIS, but I would argue that is a special case, in that Troi appears to be outside of the command structure of the ship; see below.)

– Worf and Dax were married, yes. It also worked out disastrously from an organizational behavior standpoint, and the episode implied that Worf would never get a command as a result.

– There was that soon-to-be-married couple in “Balance of Terror”; it was also implied (based on lines in “Who Mourns for Adonis?”) that one of them would have to leave the service, or at least transfer to a new post.

– No one was sleeping with anyone on the NX-01; that was part of the reason I liked the series. It was a realistic depiction of a military command structure, like TOS.

– In VOY, of course we saw them jettison this principle with abandon: Chakotay-Seven (in the last episode), Tom-B’Elanna, etc. But VOY is sui generis, because its crew had every reason to believe they would live out their lives in the Delta Quadrant, and that they were now on board a generational ship. Even there, Janeway and Chakotay decided against a relationship after “Resolutions.”

– Then there is DISCO, where we see a relationship between Stamets and Culber. This is, of course, a same-sex relationship, which was not what we were discussing. But there, too, Stamets is shown to be more a scientific researcher who joined Starfleet to test propulsion systems, more than a career officer. And he’s also described as an Einstein- or Musk-level scientific intellect; like it or not, genius-level folks at the very pinnacle of their fields often get a little more leeway than mere mortals.

Finally, in those rare instances where we have seen intimate relationships between crewmates, they are, at least, not between a CO and subordinate.

I suppose you can argue that, however bad fraternization may be from a leadership perspective, Starfleet differs from the modern military in that many missions last several years, far from port: the proverbial five-year mission. (Then again, 1701-D seemed to return to port frequently enough.)

Starfleet Command may feel that the organization cannot ask crew members to forego romance, or at least sex, for that long and still have a qualified applicant pool from which to draw. Starfleet therefore allows some leeway for relationships where they are not in the reporting chain of command. “Pen Pals,” where we saw a married couple serving on the Enterprise-D, suggests this is indeed the case. Even there, however, Wesley’s mentor told him not to assign married couples to the same team.

Look, I get this is Hollywood and not a 100% faithful depiction of military life, and they’ll occasionally want to show romance between officers for dramatic reasons (cf. Worf-Dax). And as noted above, there might be reasons for Starfleet to be more lax on fraternization than conventional 21st century militaries.

But a relationship between the captain and XO is just a bridge too far. It would engender an absolutely toxic — nay, poisonous — environment on the ship.(STARGATE SG-1 handled this issue quite well; it repeatedly implied that O’Neill and Carter would have gotten married, had it not been for anti-fraternization rules. I have even read that the final, unproduced movie would have had a retired O’Neill engaged to Carter.)

I once turned down a job at a startup-ish company I really liked, primarily because the CEO was dating the COO (who interviewed me). I knew that arrangement would torpedo a serious emerging growth company. (Sure enough, the COO eventually left.) Similarly, every so often you find a naive political candidate or newly-elected congressperson who, in a genius move, decides to appoint his or her spouse as an advisor or even chief of staff. News flash: you can’t fire your spouse if something goes wrong. The best-run offices on the Hill had a virtual Chinese wall between member and spouse.

If he wants his LEGACY series, Matalas was right not to resurrect the Seven-Raffi relationship; “we had a short relationship for a couple of weeks long in the past, and it’s long over” is at least a way of acknowledging this point.

Okay hold up. Either sit down and read what I actually say and ask me if you don’t understand it or just stay away from my comments period. Okay?

I don’t want to talk about couples sleeping together or anything like that. I just want. More representation. For the LGBT community. I’m not at all asking for couples on the same ship. I literally just want. More LGBT characters. That’s it. That’s not something to debate! I literally just want to see more men who romantically prefer other men! I’m literally not asking for them to date someone on the same ship or even at all. idk give them a civilian boyfriend back home, whichever planet that may be. That’s literally all that I want.

I literally just want. More LGBT characters.

Since I see no one upthread arguing that we should have fewer LGBT characters, I am mystified what triggered this truculent reply.

At best, I see @UpperDecks suggesting (without any real evidence) that some studio executive might have opposed the idea.

sit down and read what I actually say

What you actually said — quoting verbatim — was “they’ve kinda hinted [at] Number One and Erica Ortegas. Which is good, more representation for lesbians is always good.”

To which I have replied that because Number One is Ortegas’ CO, they should not be in a relationship, hinted at or otherwise. The same is true of Seven and Raffi. Well-run organizations (perhaps allowing for some leeway in the case of family businesses, etc., which Starfleet is not) prohibit people in a relationship from reporting to one another or occupying the top leadership positions.

They keep this policy for very sound reasons:
(1) If a direct report royally screws up, you can usually fire him; not so if he’s your husband.
(2) If the relationship goes south, the organization is potentially exposed to sexual harassment/hostile environment lawsuits.
(3) The reports may take decisions in the interests of their relationship, not the interests of the organization.
(4) Other employees may perceive favoritism in terms of things such as doling out the best work assignments, compensation, etc.

None of this precludes “more representation for lesbians.” It merely says that it would be very poor representation to show lesbians who are both senior command crew, with one reporting to the other, having a relationship with *each other*.

just stay away from my comments period. Okay?

Not, that is not OK. This is a blog: a public forum. People are going to engage on the topic at hand, and you will find they sometimes disagree with you.

You come in, assume I said something when I did not, I said that nobody was talking about that and despite that you go on talking about that. On top of that, you’re literally saying that one of the only breadcrumbs of representation in terms of relationships that the LGBT community gets is something that should be taken away because it’s not professional.

I’m angry right now and I’m trying my best to control it. For real. All that I want is more representation for us, not less. That’s. Literally. All. I’m. Asking. For. Okay?

Mariner is bisexual. So that’s four out of five Trek series right now with LGBT+ characters. I don’t share your worry that gay and bisexual men are being abandoned yet. It’s a Watch This Space issue.

Okay but Mariner is a woman. They could have given us more LGBT men already but they haven’t. I know to wait. Waiting is all I’ve ever done. I’m happy for all of the LGBT women we’ve gotten. They just really have no excuse for there not being more LGBT men yet. Absolutely none. But yes yes I’ll just have to wait. Because all we do is wait. And in the meantime I’ll just watch us lose Paul Stamets and Hugh Culber so we’ll be down to 0 LGBT men.

Dude, I fear that Matalas wants Legacy so bad the he was just too risk adverse to continue with the progressive advancements that we got in DSC. One might imagine his thought process (I am exaggerating a bit to demonstrate my point, obviously):

“TNG reunion with lot’s of Nostalgia and Berman-era fan service — check. Make it action-adventure like Star Wars — check. Bring back as many guest characters as possible — check. Bring in Picard’s mystery son with a British accent and who looks like James Bond and nothing like Jean-Luc — check. Avoid any L-G-B-T-Q stuff and revert Seven and Raffi back to straight to avoid any media fuss with the current w-oke backlash — check.”

Okay, the escalation you took for that last supposition is seriously 🧐.

There were horses, a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.


Your POV is entirely valid, and I’m sorry if you feel dejected by the state of representation at present.

I personally think the last 6 years have been a massive leap in the right direction and don’t feel the need to demand more right now, or see a sinister agenda to exclude gay men from the franchise. I felt Discovery has been a bit flat footed with how it has approached LGBT representation (quantity over quality) after starting off so well with how Culber and Stamets were introduced. So my priority is seeing good representation, not tokenism.

Woe betide any person for getting into a relationship with that high-maintenance, loud and annoying person.

If there needs to be a delay, perhaps the next P+ streaming film after Section 31 could be a Legacy movie to bridge the gap between PIC season 3 and LEG season 1.

It could be that gap or it could be a movie that shows the year we skipped in the PIC finale. Show us how Starfleet rebuilds and gets to what we see in the finale. Either way, it’s good with me!

but who asked for the academy show (if it’s Disco era?)

Certainly seems like there is far more excitement over legacy than continuing to try to squeeze interest out of Disco – but – I also recognize it’s kind of an echo chamber in the various Trek forums so who knows

Who asked for Star Trek: Kids-of or Star Trek: Nepotism?

I support a 25th century show, but they really need to dial back on trying to buy interest in characters through their legacy character parents.

To transfer the excitement for Picard Season 3 to another show featuring a new crew is a mistake. I loved seeing the OG TNG crew in action one more time. I have little interest in watching a new show with 7 of 9, Jack and Raffe.

That’s close to the long and short of it.

I can’t wait. The story continues and we sprinkle in great actors from TNG/DS9/VOY where appropriate, develop the La Forge family, etc

I would love to see a Legacy show over anything else. It makes room for the old and the new. To coin a phrase, the best of both worlds. Ahem.

You know the old adage, “Don’t read the comments”? Well, I shouldn’t have read the comments. :)

I knew I would see a barrage of people shouting some variation of “Cancel Starfleet Academy!” Which is exactly what happened. The truth is that the money for Starfleet Academy is already in the process of being spent; the production is underway and probably past the point of no return. And there’s no reason to reverse course anyway.

It’s true that Starfleet Academy probably isn’t going to appeal to the same bastion of fans that want Legacy to happen. But that’s not a bug; it’s very much a feature. Starfleet Academy has been greenlit precisely because, like Prodigy before it, its whole aim is to go after a mostly unreached demographic — young people. With Starfleet Academy, they’re bringing in NEW fans, not servicing the existing ones.

But don’t worry. Legacy *will* happen. It’s only a matter of time. If Paramount Plus determines that the venture will be profitable, they will pursue it.

Well production for the Academy show doesn’t even until next year. No one has been cast for it nor is there an official starting date, so plenty of time to cancel it. There are hundreds of shows that gets pilots, millions spent on them and still never see the light of day. So it wouldn’t be a huge shock if this got cancelled or delayed at this stage. This is same company that supposedly hired writers and a director multiple times for the next Trek movie and all got cancelled just the same.

Now all that said, I do think there is push to make it happen, so it probably will. But the chorus for the Legacy show is only getting louder by the week and it may be hard to ignore it. But also agree the Legacy show will happen, it’s only a question will it be before or after the Academy show. But it’s obvious this is the next live action show in the pipeline regardless. How can it not?

I think we’re more or less on the same page, although I hope Paramount doesn’t change course on Starfleet Academy. Nor do I think they will. Bear in mind that I’m looking forward to Legacy as much as anyone (I literally can’t wait to see what they come up), but I also love having new shows that push the boundaries forward with new casts and new situations. Plus, count me as a fan of the far future setting which Discovery has only barely started to explore. I want the franchise to keep expanding in that direction; the world-building there holds so much potential.

Yeah I definitely think they should stick to their guns and make the show.

But yeah make the Legacy show too lol. The only issue I see is fans are worried A. after the Academy show, it may be the last Trek show for years and B. They are just impatient lol.

I guess I’m more calm about all of this because I’m fine with either one but I’m pretty convinced they will both happen. People have to remember it took 5 years to get the Academy show a green light. Now that they got it, I can’t blame them for wanting to push through.

But that said I don’t think anyone saw just how well received until Matalas turned in what they had and they knew they were sitting on something big. Now they figured it out AFTER the fact but they obviously just expected to wrap the show up and then later probably do something in that era.

Dude I was at the L.A. IMAX screening. There was just a wave of enthusiasm you could feel in that theater. There were tons of executives there along with the big names like Kurtzman and Metalas. People went up to them saying the same thing, they want more of this. Hell I told Metalas the same thing lol. So when Kurtzman said he heard them loud and clear, he was at that IMAX, he literally heard it said very loud and very clear lol. So what do you do with that?

So you have both of these ideas conflicting with each other. It’s more bad timing than anything. So we’ll see but if they stay with the Academy show, great. They buckle under pressure from all the death threats and fast track the Legacy show instead, even better. ;)

For me, I’m just happy we are getting more post-Nemesis shows first and foremost. That’s more important than anything for me.

I get that they want to bring in new fans. And a young, new cast is a way to do that. But, man, I just realized the one thing that would get me happy as an opener to SFA would be a broadcast address from Chief/Professor (?) Miles O’Brien to a new academy class. But, as all indications are that this show will be in the 32nd century, such an address seems unlikely, unless they want to frame it as “for the first class to start post-Burn, here is an archived address from the first Academy class to start after the Dominion War of the 24th century.” !!!

Long story short: setting Academy in the 32nd would preclude most (but not all) Legacy character appearances. Which would have been a nice potential for the show; in addition to drawing in new, young audiences, you could have some built-in appeal to Legacy fans too. Oh well.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think setting Starfleet Academy in the future precludes legacy cast appearances, although I will grant that it precludes legacy character appearances, if you catch my distinction. Imagine an Academy of the future, in a diminished but rebuilding Starfleet, where instructors are in short supply and therefore sentient holograms are pressed into service. Why not build those holograms in the likeness of some of Starfleet’s most famous heroes of the past 900 years? You could literally pull in *any* legacy actor.

Oh I’m here for holo teacher Jeffrey Combs

Discovery has already built a younger demographic for the 32nd century. Academy will need that.

If you think the 15-30s we’re watching Picard, you are mistaken. My teens won’t touch it and they were core Voyager fans 5 years ago. They aren’t interested in a show about kids of TNG characters.

Academy isn’t intended to be a platform for boomers and Gen-X to see their favourites lecturing a younger generation. It should be drawing a younger generation into the excitement of Starfleet. Nostalgia needs to take a backseat as a priority in that.

I definitely agree.

I actually agree with you, TG47. Completely. I was only postulating, in response to someone else’s remark, that the premise of the Academy series doesn’t preclude the appearance of legacy characters, but it isn’t something I need to see. I enjoyed Picard immensely, and I do think Legacy will happen and that it will be great. But I am *all about* moving the franchise forward into the unknown, with new characters and new worlds and new ships and new stories. That’s what I like so much about the 32nd century setting — we don’t know much about it yet, and there’s so much territory to be explored. It’s tremendously exciting.

If you think the 15-30s we’re watching Picard, you are mistaken. My teens won’t touch it and they were core Voyager fans 5 years ago.

Respectfully, I would like to see real data on this question, rather than extrapolating from a sample size of one — particularly where that sample size appears to have an allergy to more risque or ground-breaking drama.

And as I noted above, based on what you’ve written before, I don’t think your teens are going to be teens much longer. Are they really going to want Star Trek 90210 once they go to college, much less become seniors in high school?

They aren’t interested in a show about kids of TNG characters.

Neither am I. Doesn’t follow I want Star Trek 90210, either.

There’s a place for both. Either way, Legacy needs a killer premise a la DS9 which had so much going for it in what Emissary set up. The worry a Legacy series presents as just another starship show is the biggest concern I’d have.

Yeah I think that’s the other problem for the Academy show, some people are just not happy with its setting, especially if you hate Discovery. I’m one of the rare freaks excited for the show BECAUSE it takes place in the 32nd century lol. And I’m not a big Discovery fan and currently my least favorite show in the entire franchise. So it has nothing to do with it being a DIS spin off. I have no issues with that at all and would actually be happy to see DIS characters show up, but I’m just looking at the bigger picture in general.

But yeah I think if the show took place in the 25th century people would certainly much more excited about it. You now have these older TNG era characters, what better place for some of them to end up than teaching at the Academy if they are tired of tired of ship life?

Huh. Well, I guess you and I are both freaks of a similar type. :) I think you probably dislike Discovery more than I do, but I also am excited about the Academy show principally because of its setting. I think that setting is an especially good one for this show’s basic premise, which is building out Starfleet anew in an era after which it was decimated. Starfleet had become very small and is now tasked with training a vast number of new cadets to crew the large number of ships that will be needed as the Federation struggles to once again expands to its former extent. Building ships is relatively easy; training people to crew those ships, and immersing them in the Starfleet/Federation ethos, sounds *much* harder to me. So I’m pretty optimistic! That would make for very fertile storytelling ground!

Aside from the potential of having legacy characters involved, an Academy series in the 25th century holds… little appeal. The future setting is key to making this interesting — in my opinion of course.

But I also just think people register their gut reactions too quickly these days. We don’t really know anything about the show and already people are pissing all over it. I mean, who knows, maybe Legacy would be better in the long run. Maybe it wouldn’t. The only way we’ll ever find out is when they make it and we get to see it. I’m pretty content to just sit by and watch what they put out, then decide how I feel about it.

To put it mildly, that’s not what most people seem to do… oh well.


You just said everything I been thinking about the potential for this show. The idea of trying to rebuild starfleet and rebuild it with these young cadets who unlike the 23rd, 24th and 25th century has never had Starfleet or the Federation in their lives before. All of it is new again. They are the face of a fledgling organization that is trying to find its feet again after 100 years. That is a totally awesome premise to me.

I have heard people say if you want a more stripped down Academy show than put it in the 22nd century right after the Federation is formed and you kind of get the same idea (and Archer can pop up ;)). But again, this is problem for prequels to me, we know it’s all going to work out fine. It doesn’t mean it can’t be a great show on its own but it just doesn’t drive me like it does when the Federation is down and out. And if you put the show in the 23rd, 24th or 25th seasons, then its just kids going to another school. That hook isn’t there. Again it could be a great show, I’m not saying it needs a hook; but when you already have a premise that frankly, let’s be honest, sounds boring to a lot of fans, this at least gives it an enticing layer if they do it right.

And it gives them a wide berth to just play with the concept however they want. Maybe because of the situation, cadets are fast tracked to train on starships because they are trying to get the fleet moving again. Maybe we’ll see ‘exchange’ programs and students are taking classes on different planets to get them used to cultural exchanges again. Or maybe the Academy takes place on a space station in the Delta quadrant that they are learning to operate and how to meet and interact with other aliens ala DS9–the cadet edition ;). They can do sooooo many things with this idea because of how advance this period is.

And I’m just ready to see more 32nd century ships. Another reason Discovery has disappointed me, but yeah budget is probably an issue.

That’s why while I would love the Legacy show, I am honestly just as excited about this show because the possibilities alone can be interesting and different. Now if it sucks and it’s just Dawson Creek in space in the 32nd century, I will be bitterly disappointed lol. But I just believe that every show has potential until it doesn’t. Hopefully we don’t have to wait a year before they start shooting it to learn more about it.

My spouse has pointed out another advantage of setting Academy in the 32nd century.

With this being a reopening after a century, not all the cadets will be the equivalent of new high school graduates. Some may be older.

It won’t feel like the species-equivalent of a tight age cohort.

All that diversity in species, representation, and age will help make this a more appealing show.

Wow great point. I didn’t think of that, but yes that’s possible too. And I think people are pushing back on it because they think the show will just be focused on teens, but I’m guessing there will be just as much of a focus on the older characters as well which many of these schools shows do.

I rewatched The OC about a year ago and it was just as focused on the adults and the parents as the high school teens.

the money for Starfleet Academy is already in the process of being spent; the production is underway and probably past the point of no return

Sunk cost fallacy, and one that the BATGIRL folks successfully recognized.

Well, it’s not *my* sunk cost fallacy. If anything, it’s Paramount’s. And also, in case you missed this point, I’m personally very excited about the Academy show. So, like, I don’t know what to tell you…

Also, when it comes to Academy and Legacy, it’s not either/or. It’s both/and. It’s just a matter of time before we have both shows. The only people pitting these two shows against each other are the “fans” in comment sections like this one.

Well, that’s my point; Paramount’s CFO could run the numbers, conclude that LEGACY offers a better IRR than ACADEMY, and recommend that Paramount quietly shelve the latter, knowing that the company is still better off from a sunk costs perspective. Sunk costs aren’t supposed to enter into valuation models, and any minimally competent CFO knows this.

That is, after all, sort of what they did with Phase II in the 1970s, and S31 just last week.

I somewhat disagree that “it’s not either/or”; perhaps it’s not *inherently* either/or, but I get the sense that Paramount may be belatedly realizing that it’s inadvisable to have so many damn Star Trek shows on at once. It fragments the fan base and makes for a creative pastiche.

And I suspect that it’s ultimately bewildering to new would-be fans. The cereal aisle theory tells us that when customers are faced with a choice between too many similar products, they throw their hands into the air and make no choice at all.

But you could also argue Disney+ is okay with now taking a similar approach. They are moving beyond the 70 Year span of the Skywalker era and exploring ideas set thousands of years before it on TV.

Uh yeah, what have I been saying guys? ;D

This is happening exactly as I assumed it would.. In fact, it’s practically following the same playbook how SNW came into existence. Let’s run it down the parallels, shall we!

A. Before Pike and Spock even appeared on DIS, the news alone got huge fanfare over it and the characters ended up becoming more popular than the DIS characters were themselves once they did appear; being iconic legacy characters. Exact same thing happened with this show the day the TNG cast was announced to be on PIC. It too brought huge fanfare from fans when it was announced obviously and few people cared when they replaced 80% of the cast that was already there for two seasons. And we have been watching the results since the season started to the finale.

B. Fans started to rally once the season started for DIS and the fervent idea of a spin off show started to take shape…a show that wasn’t planned from the outset! But fans pushed and pushed and pushed to the point people were signing online petitions to get Paramount’s attention. What do you know, same thing is happening here. Fans were already pushing for a PIC spin off once we told season 3 would be its last. But fans have been pushing and pushing and pushing once the season actually started including signing online petitions to get Paramount’s attention. And the chorus has been getting louder ever since. Again,a show that also isn’t planned from the outset.

C. Pike and Spock was mostly an idea that came from Akiva Goldsman who pushed for it when he showed up to be a show runner on DIS in season one. He was a huge TOS fanboy and not only helped to get these characters on the show, he was an active supporter of a spin show happening both in public and behind the scenes. He suggested the idea in interviews and helped riled up fans while he was trying to get executives onboard. The actors played their parts as well with Ethan Peck,Rebecca Romijn and Anson Mount pushing for a show at conventions and in interviews fans were already craving.

Now cut to Picard when Terry Matalas showed up as show runner to produce the second and third seasons and had the idea of bringing back the TNG cast. He was a huge TNG fanboy and not only pushed to get those characters on the show, he was an active supporter of a spin off happening in public and behind the scenes. And yes, just like Peck, Romijn and Anson, Frakes, Ryan, Burton, McFadden and even Stewart has been pushing the idea to fans in interviews and conventions, a show fans were already craving.

Do you see the pattern forming guys? ;D

D. Alex Kurtzman never said a single thing about a Pike show until he saw fans rooting for one and then he started giving hints about one possibly happening and said he ‘heard’ the fans. History is starting to repeat itself lol.

E. Now here is where the parallels gets soooooo much weirder. Before DIS season 2 aired, what show was announced. That’s right kids, Section 31. A show most fans did not want as people continued pushing for the Pike show instead every time this thing was discussed….and looked what happened? The Pike show ended up getting announced and the S31 show was pushed to the back burner because there was sooo much demand for one over the other. The S 31 not only never happened, it ended up just turning into a TV movie four years after it was announced lol.

And here we are once again lol. The good people at Secret Hideout announced a show that most fans either don’t want or have waaaaaay less interest in compared to the Picard spin off with the Starfleet Academy show. People are now constantly talking about the show that isn’t even in production yet over a show that has been announced with a start date and all; but few people truly seem excited about.

I will argue the cries for a Legacy show is louder today because of well received the season is. So we’ll see where it all goes but I’m convince a spin off show will happen, it’s only a matter of when and what form. ;)

I think this is because CBS wanted Star Trek to be NCIS, so they continued to push NCIS-type spin-offs. When they realized the fan base was in fact large enough for “true-er” Trek, they did what you described. I think….

Yeah that’s a good point. And one I don’t mind going in because yeah I agree with the idea of taking Trek and do different things with it. It’s the biggest reason why DS9 is my favorite show because it ISN’T TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT. It really sits alone from those others for many reasons.

But the irony is now DS9 is considered more ‘real’ Trek than shows like DIS and even early PIC is today because it still fits into the universe fans know and love. And while we didn’t get as much DS9 elements as I was hoping with Picard S3, the fact people were excited to have them still say a lot.

But end of the day, I think most people just want more TOS and TNG. Not them specifically but the same format basically, people on a starship barking orders and checking out spatial anomalies. It’s why Picard just became more TNG in season 3 and stuff like S 31 is now a TV movie instead of a show. The Academy show may work and fans may love it. But again, it’s probably a reason the idea never caught on since it’s been proposed as far back as the 80s. But maybe it will be good….maybe lol.

But it’s not a surprise why all 5 shows are currently ship based. I really think after Discovery they had a more radical plan for future shows, but the fans kept saying they want more exploration and people doing Starfleet things and that’s what they got. Maybe not as formulaic like classic Trek was minus DS9…but close enough. SNW is basically as classic Trek as you can get. But I bet you no one ever had a plan of doing just a straight forward Star Trek show again when stuff like Khan (ugh) or S 31 was on the table.

And the fact shows like SNW along with LDS, PRO and now PIC S3 are all hits probably pushes that narrative harder.

I think the way TOS and TNG did ship shows was radical, and fans loved to be provoked intellectually. DS9 was an advancement in storytelling. I hope someday we get a ship-based show that actually gets into one planet or one solar system. I tbink the slower they go the deeper the feelings can be.

“And here we are once again lol. The good people at Secret Hideout announced a show that most fans either don’t want or have waaaaaay less interest in compared to the Picard spin off with the Starfleet Academy show. People are now constantly talking about the show that isn’t even in production yet over a show that has been announced with a start date and all; but few people truly seem excited about.”

You’re right. Some Legacy fans aren’t interested in an SFA series.

Here’s the thing: SFA is most likely not meant to appeal to Legacy fans.
It’s being made to attract the coveted YA demographic.

Yes I agree, but that doesn’t make the argument why people should be rooting for the show anymore stronger. In fact it makes it worse from a long time fan perspective because now you’re literally telling them they are making a show that’s not even for them…that’s not going to get them on board lol.

Of course no one would ever say that and obviously they are still going to find ways to have the show appeal to them. I mean Prodigy wasn’t made for old fans either, it’s made specifically to target kids. But what’s crazy is that show is very popular with old fans too, including myself. But that’s because A. they were smart to include elements that would make it a bigger appeal to long time fans like including Janeway and B. It’s actually just a well done Trek show that I feel sits along TNG/TOS/SNW/VOY, etc. It’s just made for kids in mind.

So yeah you can still have a show not specifically targeted for long time fans and still be something they can love as Prodigy has proven. That said, there are still tons of fans not watching that show because they feel its aimed younger. And for others, anything animated is an automatic turn off. But hopefully the Academy show will be like Prodigy and just be a great Star Trek show and more people will get on board with it. And being live action helps lol.

Academy is a vanity project for Kurtzman that takes place in the 31st century Discovery timeline that no one cares about. If he was really about “Legacy” and maximizing viewership he would shelve Academy for now and replace it with Legacy while the fan fervor over Picard S3 is at its peak.

My teen kids won’t watch Legacy.

I can’t them to look at Picard season three. Four years ago they were avid Voyager fans, and were starting to come to cons with me.

Now, it’s just the animated shows that garner their enthusiasm. Discovery season four at least got watched, they’re iffy on SNW.

So, I really question anyone who says Legacy is the future of the franchise.

I also take offence at people promoting false narratives about Kurtzman’s motivations in creating Academy. There is no way Paramount would have set up a writers room to develop the show or greenlit it if the business case wasn’t there.

Yep, my anecdata supports that the most vocal future fans will be because of the animated shows. Shorter episodes, easier to digest, brighter, faster, speaks their language. Broader appeal right off the bat.


Obviously, many fans are happy with what Terry Matalas did with this season of “Picard.” Obviously, that leaves me in the minority. That said, my issue, as always, is with the work, never the person. If he winds up producing a ‘Legacy’ spinoff, I’ll wish him nothing but the best. But to paraphrase Logan Roy, at this juncture it’s difficult for me to see him as a serious person. No one who’s serious would have had Alice Kriege’s Borg Queen cackle like a Republic serial grade-Z villain, or have her zombies robotically name check earth cities as to they targeted them. And no serious person would have given us a starship crewman unqualified to do anything but cook when most of the people onboard eat replicated food. (They could have just as easily made him a Waste Recycling Technician Third Class and the joke about him being all that was left to pilot the ship would have been just as funny.)

I’ve been saying this for years: the current writers of Trek are not without talent — but they need adult supervision.

Your being HARSH Michael HARSH

As someone who has force fed himself most of the new Trek product, none of what you mentioned differs from what’s happened on the other shows. This is just the house style now. Also, picking these points elides all the genuine emotional work that happened during the season that I think *does* set it apart from prior shows. “No Win Scenario” is beautiful. Picard & Ro was great. Data vs. Lore was surprisingly effective. Riker having such a complete arc that telling Troi that he’ll be waiting for her *after* — when earlier he had said he didn’t believe there was anything after — helped her save the day. Picard meeting Jack in the Borg space offering to stay with him until the end was fantastic. These are just *some* of the highpoints and I get that the junky sci fi schlock suit that this other stuff has to wear is ugly and disgusting, but it’s no different than all the crud they’ve been pulling since Discovery season 1.

‘No different’ true.

What’s different and disturbing is that so many legacy fans are ignoring that Picard S3 has those problems because of ‘feels.’

Those nostalgia hits weren’t there for younger, newer viewers. My guess is that the season skews even older and more male than the average for Paramount+. This isn’t brilliant.

There might not be a one size fits all scenario here. I can like the season in spite of its flaws. I don’t think it’s the best TNG movie or anything like that. It might be a unnecessarily critical to only look at the negatives and say that because it’s not perfect it’s awful. I think because it *has* “feels” is a pretty decent reason to overlook some of the rougher bits. I pointed out several “feels” that I thought worked as well as they did *because* they were earned on the story level. For the most part, I think they worked hard to earn everything and obviously some people loathe the makers for even the attempt, and that’s fine. It’s impossible to please everybody, and Star Trek fans are probably the hardest fans in the history of the world to please. That’s why it’s such a niche property.

No loathing here.

Just wryness that what was unbearable in Discovery is worthy of notice in Picard S3.

I also with you that the new shows exhibit as much of a ‘house brand’ as the Berman-era ones. Different common strengths, and common flaws.

Hitting the needs of different sub-niches is actually drawing some new viewers to the franchise. It seems a successful strategy. The number of people for whom Lower Decks was the entry point is moderately astonishing – unless you understand that’s where the general youth market has gone.

Who knows? Perhaps Kurtzman’s ‘phase two’ for SH Trek will course correct on some of these things.

But again, why does that really matter? Setting aside if getting a nostalgia itch scratched is a legitimate reason to be a hypocrite about plotting issues, what is the immediate problem with catering to this hypothetically older male audience for a streaming series?

There is an advertising component to Paramount+ as there’s an ad-supported tier, and most advertisers still value younger demos more highly. But the bulk of streaming revenue is in subscriptions and the money of a senior citizen is worth the same as that of a college student at the end of the day. If older audiences like this sort of show, then keeping them in the fold is still a priority on top of finding ways to grow the fan base.

This is just the house style now.

Probably so; trouble is, that house is going to collapse — particularly when we get regular earthquakes like animated SNW episodes and Starfleet Academy series on the radar.

…her zombies robotically name check earth cities as to they targeted them.

Leningrad reporting 100% cloud cover!

My thing is, if they’re going to do Legacy, they need to do it sooner rather than later if they plan on using legacy characters. The TNG cast was great this season except Patrick Stewart who is struggling due to age, but they’re in their 60s/70s, along with many of the characters from other shows. If they want to use any of the TNG characters again (which I’m all for) they need to do it NOW while they’re at the top of their game. Starting to film in 2025 is pushing it.

And I agree – the Academy show that no one asked for can take a back seat.

I hate to say it, but sometimes, during both seasons two and three, it was kind of hard for me to watch Stewart. Age has really hit him hard and he can occasionally bring down a scene due to his lack of energy. That said, for some reason, he seemed more “up” in parts of season 3 (odd, because it was filmed back to back with season 2) but occasionally he seemed very frail.

One of the things I really appreciate about PIC is how it gave lead roles to Michelle Hurd and Jeri Ryan, both of whom are well past the age actresses are usually even seen at all. Kudos for that.

If the Kelvin cast is a no go

How about a proper movie…….

Star Trek Legacy

By the time Legacy comes out (if it does) Speleers is going to be playing a 24 year old while being in his mid-late 30s….whoops.

He already looks like he’s approaching 40.

I agree. Also, I can’t tell if I’m not a fan of his acting, or I just don’t really care for the character…they’d need to do something about his position on the ship, because it makes NO sense at all.

Ditch Starfleet Academy and ramp up Legacy. The academy concept wasn’t welcomed when Harve Bennett first pitched it, and I doubt that it will be welcome now. Read the room Paramount. I don’t need 90210 Trek-style.

I Agree

It’s not for you and that’s ok.

People came in here to say we didn’t need Prodigy and Lower Decks.

They are in fact Paramount+ two most popular animated digital originals.

If Academy can do the same in it’s niche, it’s needed.

I appreciate your point of view TG47. You are correct regarding Prodigy and Lower Decks, both of which I enjoy. The SA concept has never been compelling to me, but if it attracts new fans that is a consideration. It’s the “big tent” concept applied to Star Trek, I guess. :-)

It’s a shame though that Paramount must apparently choose because of resources/finances. I hate to see them lose momentum they’ve gained on the Legacy concept.

I’d say SFA will have more in common with Riverdale or Stranger Things than 90210. Both those shows are popular, as well, so if ST can tap into that demographic, that’s a good thing.

Bring it on! If not a series, a series of movies, like Section 31.

I’m betting they do Legacy as a series of movies, like with Sec 31. Maybe one every couple of years. This makes a lot of sense. It limits the financial commitment and lets them test content for potential future series. If something goes over particularly well, it could very easily be used as a pilot for a series when SNW is ready to wind down. As much as I’d like to see a Legacy series now, it just seems to similar to the hole SNW seems to be filling. Some character-based movies is something this franchise has never done and it could be just the formula to keep things going without over-saturating the market. Maybe a bit of a rest is a good thing.

I’ve been hoping for this for years.

If there’s anything learned from Picard it’s that focusing on the personal journey of a single legacy character doesn’t make a good multi season show.

Give us movies or miniseries. Even Short Treks. Let us have a Troi focused story or a Geordi focused one.

If there’s a case for a 25th century ship-based exploration show (as I hope there is) let’s pull back on the nepotism, really look at which of the new characters has audience appeal. Pick the new characters that audiences truly responded to positively as characters, not as appendages of their parents.

(I personally don’t see evidence it’s maguffin, chosen one Jack who audiences are clamouring for. There’s more negative posts than positive about where things were left. A one shot Family hour showing Jack dealing with his court martial and trauma might quiet some of the outrage.)

Give the ship a slipstream drive and let her and her crew get out to the furthest reaches of Gamma and Beta Quadrant to check things out. Forget the nostalgia tour.

When you go see a famous band, you expect them to play the classics AND the new material. They never get up and concentrate on one or the other. They’d alienate some of the crowd either way. By mixing it up, they cover all the bases.

I’m all for new ideas. The only recent Trek show I disliked was DIS. I loved all the others. SNW, LDS, etc. I was a bit lukewarm with PIC seasons 1 and 2, but I appreciated the effort.

Heck, even with DIS, I enjoyed some episodes. And I respected the hard work that went into it. I was sad it was cancelled, because I sensed with the future setting (which is should have been from the beginning) it could have improved more. Was still a bit slow, though.

PIC season 3 was amazing. Still fell victim to the slow pace of serialised TV – but a big improvement. SNW and LDS (and PRO) all show how that mix of serialised and stand alone will always be the best. DS9 really pioneered that in Trek.

Anyway – I want to see new fresh ideas and classic nostalgia too. We can all get what we want. It’s a great time to be a fan.

I think as a fan community we need some healing too. We should all appreciate each other, keeping this franchise alive even if we don’t all like every single iteration. IDIC should be our mantra as fans.

I appreciate your differences.

IDIC indeed.

Really glad you enjoyed it and most of the other shows. I pretty much have the same taste as you. And as for the Legacy show, as Matalas said to me, cross your fingers. ;)

I like the mix of old and new in Picard season 3, it’s the right way to do nostalgia – ala Twin Peaks season 3. Appreciate age, comment on it, bring in wild new weirdness alongside it. You can’t go back but you can go forward with old friends AND new

The best thing about Picard season 3 is that if finally returned Star Trek to the Star Trek Universe. Same goes for Strange New Worlds. I’m not sure why they’re so committed to Discovery by putting the academy series in that timeframe. I know there are people who love Discovery, and I have supported it from the beginning, but it’s just not for me. Season 3 of Picard is what I wanted — a continuation of the Star Trek storylines. I hope they really are hearing us :(

I don’t think anyone’s really clamoring for an Academy series. Maybe make that a limited run of 8 to 10 episodes and wrap it up. Not multiple seasons.

I would much prefer the Legacy project myself. As a fan of the franchise for over 50 years now, I have no interest at all in Academy or Section 31! I am not totally sold on Strange New Worlds, especially after seeing how they are introducing Kirk in to it (the actor that plays him, looks and sounds like a bad choice for the character of James T. Kirk). But, that is the way of everything these days in entertainment. Never mind the fans that kept it going for the years! At least they did a great job with the Picard series. I assume my watching days are over, except for continuing to watch the old series (especially DS9).

I forgot about Sect 31! Urk, I’ll bet they’ll have a lot of expenses there, between Michelle Yeoh – who doubtless commands a significantly bigger paycheck, now – and the whole notion of prestige SciFi I expect they’ll be going for with this movie. The limited, recycled, Ten-Forward-all-the-time sets of Season 3 Picard were chintzy, but I didn’t love the season any less for it. I really hope they don’t burn through Trek’s allowance to get Marvel/Disney blockbuster effects for one movie. (Everything Everwhere All at Once was fantastic and the FX were…somewhat budget minded. I mean…rocks with googly eyes!)

Have to remember though, S 31 is still just a TV movie. I imagine the effects will be good but it will still be TV effects. That said, I have to admit how great the Picard finale looked in IMAX. Everyone seemed impressed how great it came out and that scene of Enterprise swooping down, wow! But I imagine they threw most of their money in those final episodes.

So yeah forget everything I just said lol. TV is more impressive these days obviously.

I just don’t understand the academy show appeal. I certainly don’t understand it in the 31st century. That world doesn’t interest me.

Problem is, unless you were nostalgic for (and highly conversant in) 90’s era Star Trek, much of the appeal of PIC season 3 is lost on you. And Paramount+ can’t gain subscribers and expand its audience spending money (already tight) on that kind of ST fan.

picard has expanded the pie, people who never saw DISC or SNW have rolled in.

arguably the most reliable ST fans are conversant in ’90s era material

Not to disbelieve you, but what proof can you offer for your assertion that “Picard” S3 has “expanded the pie”?

What kind of pie anyway, is it an apple pie or a strawberry rhubarb or what

That reply suggests you are or were a denizen of another trek site, which has a still-active, years-old thread bearing a similar title (part 2, no less, after 1701 replies to part 1.)

No I’m just hungry and like pie.

 what proof can you offer for your assertion that “Picard” S3 has “expanded the pie”?

Well, the fact that it ranked in the top ten streaming series, which no other NuTrek series has done, does suggest that the ratings paid off. (Yes, I’ve read there were some measuring issues with early DISCO.)

From what I’ve read Picard was the very first Star Trek streaming show that was actually measured by Nielsen. Paramount+ didn’t take part in Nielsen’s streaming charts before.

That means a lot of people watched it, not that those people had never seen Star Trek before.

You don’t want to hang your hat on that, those numbers only exist because they only just started rating P+ shows this year.

It hasn’t expanded with Disco Trek either so that argument is void. Doesn’t matter what era the show is set, as long as the writing is good.

They could drop the Academy show and start up Legacy instead. Honestly I wouldn’t miss SNW either.

Honestly, none of these sound very exciting to me, green lit or just in the daydreaming stage. Because for me, with the powers that currently be, there’s always this question now of whether Trek will continue to go for easy nostalgia and melodrama or maybe try to make something more challenging. (I’m betting on the former.)

I’m not saying every series need to be an ultra serious, pensive adult drama, but could one of them be? Just one? That’s all I’m asking. Like, I dunno, Master and Commander in space. Something like that. You know, maybe for starters trying harder to make these futuristic people sound like they live in a different time period and less like us, with less of that Tony Stark snark that keeps being used across so much media.

It’s funny I remember before the first Kelvin movie arrived people were hoping it would be like Master and Commander in space. But I agree with you, one of the things the new shows bother me is that everyone sounds so 21st century. I love LDS, but that is one of my biggest pet peeves about that show. But this is also what happens you are trying to attract a ‘newer’ and ‘younger’ audience you try to sound more like them and not enough like people in the 24th century. I’m used to it now, but yeah.

One of my favorite lines from Picard this season was Shaw’s dipshit from Chicago line but it really feels like how the actor talks in real life, a little too much IMO, but I digress.

I don’t mind so much that LDS does it. Partly because, well, I don’t watch the show, but I also see it as a parody for the most part.

But on the live-action side, yeah, it takes me out of the show every time it happens. Like when Shaw said Seven should look for pot and she immediately jumps to him meaning cannabis. Really? She’s a stern cyberwoman from the future. Shouldn’t she rattle off a list of different meanings of the word before arriving at that? She would probably jump to potentiometer before cannabis.

It’s a silly joke, of course, but it always sounds to me like they’re trying too hard to inject that hip rapid-fire Marvel style humor in a universe where it doesn’t quite fit. But context is key. If it was someone from the 20th or 21st century, then I say go for it. Make all the pot jokes you want; there it would make sense. Sonny Clemmons says smoke ’em if you got ’em.

I don’t see the need to pit SFA boosters against those who want Legacy. Starfleet Academy is *happening*, for all the cost and demo conscious reasons discussed in this thread. Money has already been shelled out. Now the question is whether some $$$ can be dug up for Legacy, and based on the reported viewership, that doesn’t sound completely impossible. Assuming Paramount is – you know – still in the original streaming content business.

The real un-knowable variable is what happens if Paramount+ fails. Anybody remember the whole UPN debacle? Would Paramont hold onto the rights for TV Trek even without having development going forward – i.e. putting Trek on ice for a decade or 2 like it’s 2005 all over again? CW has pretty much killed off DC – Trek seems perennial but there are no guarantees, especially if the promised recession is a bad one for the entertainment business. Heck, I would be fine with them doing Trek on a low budget on CBS. If there’s one thing that this season of Picard has (re)proven, it’s that cheaper Trek is often higher quality Trek. (I think I read it was done cheaper, even with all the returning cast members. The all-indoor or CGI sets were certainly cheap and we spent half the season in Hologram Ten-Forward.)

Thanks for this.

I hope Paramount doesn’t fail. It’s definitely got strengths, if cash-poor.

Selling of Simon & Schuster doesn’t seem to be possible for antitrust reasons unless some other new entry wants to enter publishing.

PlutoTV is becoming its biggest success. It it can drive new pay Paramount+ subscribers, they may have a workable model.

Also, Paramount has smartly stayed in the surprisingly large physical media business.

So, the new Trek shows are building content and drawing revenue from beyond P+.

Not to sound like a Ferengi but do they get any profit from merchandising too?

They should but they’ve never managed licensing well, except to their own book publisher.

Oh okay, thanks.

Yes, but it’s nothing on what it could be.

Man this is amazing! They are already saying the Legacy show is a possibility after ending just last week. Kurtzman must be getting endless emails and tweets about it daily now!

I’m with most people here, drop the silly CW Academy show only a few people are excited about and give us the Legacy show. You gave us Seven as Captain of the Enterprise and you thought people were happy just to leave it there? What the bleep is wrong with you people?

This is what most of the fans want, especially after that amazing season of Star Trek. Even if everyone didn’t like it, most will agree it has brought a lot of people back to Star Trek who gave up on it for 20 years now.

We need more Terry Trek and I’m happy how hard fans are making it clear. Keep going guys and if you haven’t already, sign the petition!