Into Darkness Open Week Thread + Polls | TrekMovie.com
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Into Darkness Open Week Thread + Polls May 20, 2013

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback


Vote and chat about Star Trek Into Darkness all week in sticky open thread.

 

Sticky 4: Into Darkness Opening USA/Canada Week

Opening weekend is behind us and Star Trek Into Darkness is now entering its first week (domestically). Fans continue to buzz about the movie so once again we have a special sticky open thread for opening week.

TrekMovie.com has already posted a review and now it is your chance. TrekMovie has created a new fan reviews page for Into Darkness.

 

Previous Into Darkness Spoiler Discussion Threads

May 17 – Open Weekend

May 15 – Domestic Fan Sneak Open Day

May 8 – Early Countries Open Day

 

POLLS

Here are our current polls for those who have seen Into Darkness, including a new one on what the movie needed more of (if anything).

What did INTO DARKNESS need more of?

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Thoughts on Cumberbatch's INTO DARKNESS Villain?

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How many times will you see Into Darkness in theaters

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Rank Star Trek Into Darkness (if you have seen it)

  • Best Star Trek Film (15%)
  • Great Star Trek Film (48%)
  • Good Star Trek Film (19%)
  • OK Star Trek Film (9%)
  • Bad Star Trek Film (6%)
  • Worst Star Trek Film (3%)

Total Votes: 8,433

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DISCUSS STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS (WITH ANY SPOILERS)

Below chat about the movie, including discussing any spoilers.

 

 

WARNING: This open thread is for people who have seen the movie. If you haven’t seen the movie you really shouldn’t be reading this as you are sure to get spoiled.

Comments

1. Anthony Pascale - May 20, 2013

This thread is better….at everything

2. LizardGirl - May 20, 2013

On Polls voted:

1. Needs more Cumberbatch
2. Great Villain
3. Two (at least)
4. Great Star Trek Film

3. George Kirk - May 20, 2013

I tried to find it in the credits, and didn’t see it. Are they using any science consultants for the new Star Trek movies?

4. spock69 - May 20, 2013

A.P
this site has been the best!
into darkness is the nuts.

5. NCC-73515 - May 20, 2013

Needs better (more appropriate) sound effects and a soundtrack with more variety ;)

6. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

No, according to Chris Pine, it is the Pine nuts who are nutty…:)

Of course, most nutty nuts are high nutritious and tasty. I trust that he is cognizant of this fact.

Is there any chance one or two of the new cast could share a word or two here, especially one Chris Pine?

7. Riker's Beard - May 20, 2013

Agreed, this site is brilliant. Thanks anthony.

I loved this movie. One of my lingering questions – I thought Jim said khan would face justice but it looks like he’s back in the fridge. What kind of justice facing is that?

8. Ozma - May 20, 2013

It needed more logic, apparently.

Even a lot of the good reviews say the plot cannot withstand an iota of scrutiny.

9. Joe - May 20, 2013

Mr. Abrams/Orci-What a disappointment this was. You told us you were taking extra time to make the writing especially good and all you did since the last film is cut and paste TWOK.

You did such a good job in the last film setting up this alternate universe that would allow you to tell new stories that fell in the spaces of the stories from the other universe. Yet in only the 2nd movie you did a stale, unimaginative, lazy retread of a film that you could never come close too.

Scotty resigns so he can be at the right place at the right time by chance – Lazy

Carol Marcus just hops on a secret mission shuttle with a fake name and then adds nothing but some T&A- Lazy

The Enterprise comes up dramtically from the clouds just like the first movie-Lazy

Kirk does another suit dive just like in the first film-Lazy

The SH-T is used over and over-Lazy

I won’t see this multiple times like I thought I would. I won’t take my 8 year old son. I won’t buy the DVD and I won’t trust that the final product is more important to you than making a buck.

You are a worthy successor to George Lucas for all the wrong reasons.

10. Michael Towns - May 20, 2013

Joe, tell us how you *really* feel.

11. cugel the clever - May 20, 2013

@ #7

I would say that spending eternity in a refrigerator is a pretty harsh punishment.

Great movie. I wouldn’t change anything. Abrams and colleagues are doing a fantastic job with star trek. I just hope it isn’t 4 years until the next film.

12. crucifixion - May 20, 2013

Anthony or Bob, I think I saw you post this in the other thread but not sure so will ask now. Will someone put together all the questions and answers by Bob that clarify various plot questions? As it is, its tough to follow because Bob will reply to a question with only his answer so in order to find the original question you have to scroll up a few hundred posts. So not to act privileged here, but it would be most beneficial to everyone / and to avoid repeat questions, if there can be a thread of all Bob’s Q&A. I know he answered quite a few questions I was thinking of but I do have a few more questions and not sure if Bob already answered them.

I’ll ask my most pressing question- why did Khan agree to get put back into cryo freeze again? I mean I don’t even see how he was defeated…he got stunned a few times and Spock eased up and stopped punching him…I would think Khan would then a) push Spock off or b) grab Spock and make Uhura drop the phaser. Either way, leads to his escape. Instead I’m left wondering what happened? So Uhura says that not killing Khan is the only way Spock lives, so Spock handcuffs or whatever Khan right away….then they take his blood and force him into a cryo chamber? Don’t even give him a trial? The very trial that Spock was telling Kirk that Khan is entitled to during the chase to Kronos? If I recall Kirk was going to fire the torpedos and kill Khan but Spock made him reconsider and do a capture in order to do a due process / fair trial. But the end of the movie for some reason threw that out the window. My only hope is that Khan took a pill when no one was looking and will wake up and then get his crew back and the next movie can jump into his devastation. Otherwise the next movie is going to have to waste valuable time having some arrogant businessman or something try to wake Khan (again) and we have to relive that whole process and escape essentially all over again.

13. David Oakes - May 20, 2013

I don’t wanna be the guy who says action is better than plot but the scene with vengeance literally ploughing through San Francisco was amazing.

14. David Oakes - May 20, 2013

12. crucifixion – May 20, 2013

Hi – I emailed Anthony on Friday and he said they are working on compiling all of Bob Orci’s replies into a single post.

Waiting patiently for that :)

15. Disinvited - May 20, 2013

#11. cugel the clever – May 20, 2013

Not eternity, until the rest of humanity evolved to the point where there would be nothing special about him which would be the greatest indignity.

16. KennyB - May 20, 2013

Trek fans deserve the bad rep. Never seen a more fickle cut throat fanbase. Smh.

17. Steve Harsch - May 20, 2013

I’ll start by saying that I did love the film. It was a great Star Trek film, and worked perfectly with the new universe that’s being established.

I’ve only seen it once so far (and I do need to see it a second time before I really have a final opinion), but I felt the whole Kirk/Spock scene at the end was walking a VERY fine line between homage and parody … still not 100% sure that it didn’t put it’s toe over that line a few times (i.e. Spock’s shouting of “KHAAANN” which is one of the more parodied lines of Star Trek already!).

18. cugel the clever - May 20, 2013

amazing the nitpicking that goes on about this movie. when I look at the logical, plotting, and effects disasters of most of the TOS and NG movies, the criticism of the writing/plot of this movie is incomprehensible.

The original and NextGen movies only had 4 decent entries…. II, IV, VI, and First Contact. ST I, III, V, Generations, Insurrection, Nemesis…. all very weak entries. That’s a 40% performance…. very poor.

So far, Abrams and company are 2 for 2.

19. Disinvited - May 20, 2013

#16. KennyB – May 20, 2013

“Bob, you interact with fans occasionally about your films. Do you glean information from those conversations?

Orci: Yeah, absolutely. We interact with them because we like to take in information, good or bad. Because we were fans, we understand what it is to feel strongly about a certain property or not, and also, we would have loved at the time that we were watching to be able to interact with the filmmakers. For us it’s both doing what we would have hoped we could have done as kids and also hearing insights, even the most negative comment may sometimes contain an insight. “Star Trek” has existed for 50 years and it doesn’t simply belong to us. It belongs to all the fans. They’re the ones who kept it alive for 50 years so it seems wrong not to at least hear them out. Now, do we always agree? No. Are some of them super-mean? Yes. [laughs] But that’s okay. We’re very lucky to be part of this and no opinion should be ignored no matter how it’s phrased.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/05/16/inside-star-trek-into-darkness/

20. PEB - May 20, 2013

Did something happen? A second ago, there were over 1,000 comments

21. Commodore Adams - May 20, 2013

Great article on io9, you can’t really argue with it, its like “yup, its all right there.” The 2009 movie was a touch confusing for the non trek fan…and if you want to draw in movie fans, it cant be confusing. It was the same with STID, I did not have an issue, but I could easily see how confusing it could be for the average joe, add to that its fast pace….

“After making a mere $84 million at the U.S. box office, Star Trek Into Darkness is considered by some to be a disappointment. Perhaps the problem is that it was a touch confusing. To help our readers better understand it, we’ve complied and answered these Frequently Asked Questions about the movie.”

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

22. richardg - May 20, 2013

Seen this film 3 times. It gets better the more you watch it.
After 3 times this is how i feel:

1) I Still dont like transwarp beaming. Its a lazy plot device and not realistic.
2) Like the warp core and new enterprise sets
3) Spock gets angry because he just realised his friendship with kirk. TOS episodes refer to to Kirk as his only friend. He also knows what pain kirk is in in his dying moments from his mind meld with Pike, spock told him about the consequences of Khan’s actions in the prime universe. Add these together and I can understand why he loses it and shouts KHAAANNN!
4) Cumberbatch was absolutely excellent and believable, however there was no real effort to make him feel like the Khan we know. He never “grew fatigued” or said the word “excellent”. The hairstyle was different. Although you almost feel for the character in a way you never did in TWOK.

23. Yanks - May 20, 2013

I still want my questions answered from the previous thread.

I hope Bob, Alex etc take time to explain.

Thanks

24. Phil - May 20, 2013

It needs younger viewers….

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/star-trek-darkness-needs-younger-box-office-fast-194907698.html

25. Commodore Adams - May 20, 2013

@ 20. PEB. Wow, read the very first comment. This is a new thread genius.

26. Gideonblaze - May 20, 2013

How about a “Needs LESS of” ?

I lurve Into Darkness, it’s a Trek fan’s dream-come-true. But it’s as if the filmmakers (most likely the studio and JJ) are so afraid the audience will reject a fan’s dream that they bury it under countless layers of blockbuster artifice: action, effects, score, sound design, lens flares, etc. They lay it all on so thick at times that it almost veers into parody. A non-fan friend compared it the Starsky & Hutch movie with Owen Wilson and Ben Stiller. It’s a bit of an overstatement, but I know what she means. And then the amplification is so great — of audio and visual with the 3D, IMAX, etc. — that it’s almost tiring by the end. At times getting through the climax became a bit of a slog. And I loved it, but there was also a bit too much of the Kirk/Spock ST2 replay.

So how about it Anthony? How about a “Needs less” poll?

27. Disinvited - May 20, 2013

# 20. PEB – May 20, 2013

Yes. During events like this threads can become quite unwieldy as the message count soars into the thousands. Anthony regularly resets it to keep things fluid sometime after 1000 is crossed.

28. Xeos - May 20, 2013

Anthony why not use a threaded discussion and registration system? I think the community here is large enough. WordPress + Disqus!

29. Bearded Riker - May 20, 2013

The cast really deserves intelligent writing and purposeful direction because they could actually be part of something new, exciting, and memorable. Instead, we have a summer blockbuster franchise with little creativity, little heart, and little resemblance to Gene’s vision.

30. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 20, 2013

The problem with the poll “What did INTO DARKNESS need more of?” is that you have to choose only one thing. I, for one, would have liked to select several of the options… I guess that might be why there is such a spread, so far.

31. Phil - May 20, 2013

@3. You’re joking, right? Science went out the window a while back…

32. Karen - May 20, 2013

Reposting this to new thread, since like an idiot I posted it to the last thread as it lay dying …

@1102 Peachick rose (on prev. thread)

Problem is, I think, that the production team of the film is a testosterone chamber. And while this hasn’t completely undermined the film – Uhura is great – they just can’t seem to help themselves re: the sexism. The underwear moment was entirely gratuitous, pandering to the male gaze. In the first film, Uhura was getting changed in her own quarters. Kirk was hiding. Him seeing her in underwear was contextually valid. This time it wasn’t. There was no excuse. And the fact that Kirk looked after she asked him to turn round was a complete violation of her privacy. It turned him into a nasty little perv, and that’s a shame. Because he can horn dog it as much as the producing team wants. But there is a line and that moment crossed it and it has nothing to do with ‘oh but she’s hot and any guy’s going to want to see a hot babe in her scanties!’ That’s just excusing the bad behaviour. That’s saying it’s okay to ignore her request. She said, please turn around. He ignored that request. It was a skeevy move and it sent the message, yet again, that a woman is not to be taken seriously, that she can be safely ignored, that what the guy wants is more important than what the woman wants. And that she’s supposed to think it’s cute and funny and endearing.

Well, guess what? It’s not.

The scene really disappoints me. Abrams and co. should be better than that.

33. penhall - May 20, 2013

I think we need more Bones with Kirk and Spock. He was an important part of the relationship and keeps getting left out. Also give us a less cocky Kirk and one more in line with the series now that the five year mission has begun.

34. Disinvited - May 20, 2013

#24. Phil – May 20, 2013

Back in 2009, I first stated the claims that it attracted hordes of new fans to the franchise was a convenient fiction. Their novels got cancelled and they never organized and gathered in protest. Their toy line’s got cancelled due to lack of sales, and no new fan response.

My point was, that 2009′s success was largely the result of reinvigorating the enthusiasm of the existing fan base to the point where it duplicated what it did for TMP.

35. Anthony Pascale - May 20, 2013

Disqus is huge resource hog for high traffic sites. Would increase server costs.

anyone willing to donate $ for it?

BobOrci Q&A format article is coming. But takes time to edit as many comments arent really Q&Aish and there are 3000 open thread posts to go through

36. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

This sucks. Just wrote a big review and its gone as the last article closed.
Anthony, Why even close it?

I just don’t get it. How did Trek get its science s-o-o-o wrong.

Yes Keachick, The scene with Scotty in the huge bay was poorly conceived. I would think it’s pretty common sense to think that if you are standing in the center of a large cavernous space ship and someone opened an airlock at the far end, that the force of the suction would NOT be felt at the center of the room. The force of the suction would be felt at the bottleneck of the event – which would be the airlock.

The only thing Scotty and the security guard should feel would be a strong breeze, loss of oxygen, and then unconciousness.

It was just stupid the way it played out. But yes I agree, I have never been in space. But I did see Aliens!!!

This Trek was not all bad, but the decision to not market this move is its biggest problem.

J. J. KHHHHHHHAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

I bet the writers were asked, “Who is Trek’s badest villian?” And the writers all said, “Khan.” So, JJ said, “It’s gotta be Khan, then.” But then how do we be clever enough so that those pesky fans will not find out?

GAWD! I can’t believe I am writing about how a great charasmatic character like Khan was reduced him down to some emo-english guy with a black trenchcoat!!!

I mean did’nt you guys watch the original!!!

Did’nt you even watch Wrath??!! I know you must have, but exactly how long did it take you to say that was OK, but how about we do this?!

How could you not see how Khan was the leader because he had superior AMBITION! Not, as Spock Prime said, that he considered everyone below him not even worthy of life (loosley paraphrasing what Nimoy said onscreen)!

And why the hell did you port out Nimoy again. HE said he retired, yet someone thought it a smart idea to drag him out (on what looked like a bad webcam) for one more visit! LAME!!!!!!! Certainly it was NO help to the plot. And why the hell would’nt Nimoy help at that point? A self-serving Vulcan indeed. Please.

But back to the science of Darkness for a bit.

It looked to me like the Enterprise was close to the Moon and acellerating when it went back to Earth. They said it was 200,000 miles from Earth, Then there was a battle and the Enterprise was blown apart, In that time the Spock fools BC-Khan with the Federations BEST torpedoes. But when they go off POINT BLANK inside the Dreadnought they barly even disable that ship!?

WEAK!!!

Then the E and Dreadnought are still speading toward the Earth at speeds hundreds of times faster than a returning NASA moon capsule. But when the Enterprise hits the atmosephere ther is no problem with the ship being torn apart from the velocity and force of re-entry.

So which is it Keachick?

Either the force of air through an opening airlock can rip someone out of a ship (who is hundreds of feet away from the event), but when a ship enters an atmosphere at 100,000 mph, the atmosphere and wind sheer has no effect on the structure of the ship? The E would have been vaporized as soon as it hit Earth’s thicker levels of atmosphere – of which it certaily did.

More? Kirk picks up a phaser-rifle and can’t get a shot on the small ship BC-Khan is pilotng? Then (for some reason) he goes to a blank wall panel, rips it off the wall, and surprisingly finds a firefighters hose to throw into the attacking shuttle?! Kirk had as much knowledge about that horribly designed Starfleet HQ building than BC-Khan had concerning the Vengeance! Seriouly, that building was ugly. There was nothing better available in San Francisco for SF HQ? Perhaps we will see it in a bigger budget Trek movie next time.

More? How about Star Fleets best surgeon being reduced to a blood letter to save Kirk! And Kirk received a complete transfusion! HA!!! Now I am no nuclear engineer either, but when someone get irradiated enough to kill them, a simple blood transfusion (abeit BC-Khan type blood) will never be enough to take away the highly energized radioactive particles that are though every freaking cell tissue in Kirk’s body!!! Radiation sickness is not a disease!!! And contaminated tissue and materials do not go away for thousands of years!!! GAWD!!! They should have just said Harrison was a SF techie who got his hands on Red Matter. That would have made more sense.

More? A Dreadnought spaceship being built without anyone of importance knowing? What? Was all of Starfleet decieved by Marcus’
plot?! There was not security guardng that vessel? It only took 75 crewmembers to pilot the HUGE vessel? Why no security? I still do not understand Marcus’ thinking concerning the Klingons. This was child like in its appraoch to story telling.

More? A portable transwarp teleporter. Need I say more?

ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

$200 Million and this Trek stunk like a turd!!!! Fortunately for most non thinkers most of this stinky Trek took place in space. In case you have not figured out that reference. You can’t smell anything in space – THERE’S NO ATMOSPHERE!

More to come. It’s going to take a few posts to get this out of my system.

The good…

Chris Pine. That guy showed me he CAN act. Nice range many in desparate circumstances, Chris also had many other subtle acting moments that caught my attention.

The rest of the principles were as good.

Kudos to Scotty for being the only one in StarFleet that would not be appeased by simply being asked to play along.

“Keenser, Get down!”

37. Phil - May 20, 2013

@32. You are not the only one who feels this way. The more they showed of the sneak-a-peek scene it became apparent that it was there for the T&A value only. For people who like that sort of thing, Hangover III opens next Friday.

38. jamesingeneva - May 20, 2013

OMG I just got home from seeing it in Imax 3D and absolutely loved the movie. I couldn’t believe it but there were 4 of us in the theater. What the hell?

39. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

I can’t honestly say what this movie needs more of -

Yes, I can – but it is not part of the poll –
A very good view of a shirtless Kirk…didn’t really get much of anything. Disappointing there. There was an appropriate scene where we could have seen more of that man’s natural body and even found out what the ‘cat’ ladies’ names were, if they were friends/sisters… and whether they were Caitian and how long they had known this guy Jim Kirk…then again, it would have cut into how often we saw this same Jim Kirk get punched and kicked by Harrison/Khan…duh…:(

I actually composed, what was to me at least, a funny scene involving Kirk, the ladies with tails and Admiral Pike…starting with the bedroom and the call from Pike.

Then again, we didn’t find out why Carol Marcus spoke with an English in spite of her father clearly being an American, because that scene was cut as well, because we needed to know about torpedoes.

Once again, explanation/dialogue, no matter how small, about female characters was cut in favour of bloody violence and torpedoes – built by crazy men.

Is there some rule that says that a movie must be only so many minutes long and no more? Is there also some almost inviolate rule that anything remotely relating to female characters can just be shunted/sidelined, for whatever reason, or none at all?

I am glad that you are not ignoring me, Bob, because I really think you and JJ and co. need to read this. What’s more, I don’t think I am only one who feels this way. Others even feel more strongly about these important issues.

40. Phil - May 20, 2013

@21. Have not seen the movie yet, but from the spoilers I’ve read, and the line of BS from the writing team about this movie not being a rehash of WOK, well, it’s a rehash of WOK. Still going to see it, and I’m hoping that it’s well crafted, as advertised.

41. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

37. Phil

Don’t wak the sleeping Trekkies for Hanglover T&A (Although I see why you are saying that). Trek needs the Zombie-Trek nation to see this fiasco a few more times – and then also buy it again on DVD, BluRay and Payperview!

42. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

38. jamesingeneva

“I couldn’t believe it but there were 4 of us in the theater.”

Others could’nt believe they anti-produced and anti-marketed this movie.

43. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Y’know. Freaking “Wing Commander” was a much better picture than this one. Way better. Way, way, better.

Thanks again, JJ.

44. Anthony Pascale - May 20, 2013

bear in mind there are links above to the previous open threads and the last one is still on the front page. Anything written will remain there for all of posterity (until this site dies at least). But things get unwieldy after 1000 posts

45. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Anthony, certainly you don’t need a new PC? Do you?

46. Anthony Pascale - May 20, 2013

I’ll take a free PC but TrekMovie.com doesn’t run on a PC under my desk. It is dedicated server in a rack mount server farm with a dedicated CMS, just like a real website.

47. Riker's Beard - May 20, 2013

@11

Fair enough! I’d change 1 or 2 tiny details but I’m not complaining really. Can’t wait for 2016!

48. Phil - May 20, 2013

@39. Well, it looks like his next interview is for Out Magazine. Nothing shirtless, though…

49. USSEXETER - May 20, 2013

If the Supreme Court thought fan reaction was too negative about Khan they can still fix it in the 2016 installment. Cumby was a Khan Lieutenant, & Javier Bardem plays the Real Khan.

50. JR - May 20, 2013

Before I posted this comment I saw the movie twice.

The first time I was rather upset at the lame way Kahn was introduced and portrayed. After all, we were lied to when they said ‘no, he is not playing Kahn’. I thought that was great. I thought they were going to do something new. After all, that subject needs its own film…. Oh’yea… they already did that.

The second time through… I simmered down a bit. The movie was entertaining in many parts. The Khan idea would have worked if they had more screen time on his back-story… they could have explored parts of his past that never have seen before – like flashbacks to his ‘earthly rule’ and so forth. The character called ‘Khan’ was formidable, but not Khaaaaan.

51. NCC-73515 - May 20, 2013

Nice pictures of the chronology models!
http://www.qmxonline.com/news/stid-history-of-starflight-models/attachment/01-wrightflyer/

52. SirBroiler - May 20, 2013

Broken record here, but Is there still any sliver of a chance at all that Harrison is not Khan? Please! Still holding out hope they had the wrong popsicle.

And after a second viewing – also disappointed that other than a few glances and a gratuitous display of t&a – that the Kirk/Carol relationship wasn’t forged more strongly as part of the story. A missed opportunity indeed.

But not a hater. Another screening ahead – this time IMAX.

53. Hugh Hoyland - May 20, 2013

The only thing I would say STID needed more of is a direct “full frontal” approach to the main theme of the movie…The military industrial complex and its ramifications on the general population and the chaos/death it causes. (I would have been more “radical” in my approach, but thats just me :])

I know Bob Orci is someone who has studied history and is a champion of liberty and speaks out against governmental/corporate oppression on a regular basis. And I suspect thats where the theme originated but I wont speak for him, and there are a lot of other people involved in the making of the movie besides him. But I cant wait to see what he has to say later on.

Either way I think this is the best Star Trek movie overall and thats coming from someone who has fond memories of watching TMP with my parents when I was nine, and watching TWOK with my dad at 12 and of course the other movies thru the years.

54. Karen - May 20, 2013

@37 Phil

Thanks! Sometimes it’s really hard pointing this stuff out, because so often you get beat down for it. And really, I adore this film. That’s why I’m so let down by this scene, because as a woman it makes me feel completely excluded and cheapened and objectified. Plus it disheartens me as a statement on the industry, because really? There wasn’t one woman involved anywhere in the production who could speak up and say please no, can’t you see what you’re doing? Or perhaps worse — there was, and her input was totally disregarded. Either way, it’s so beyond horrible.

55. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

Yeah, I agree that the Dr. Marcus-in-her-underwear scene wasn’t needed. It was also voyeuristic, degrading to women, and all and all basic poornographic titillation for immature boys and perverted men.

I mean, why did the writers feel the need to have (and show) her strip in the shuttle with Captain Kirk inside as well? Why not have Marcus ask Kirk to stay outside for a few seconds, show him waiting, and then depict Marcus in her suit telling Kirk that its okay to enter the shuttlecraft?

I also found that when Carol Marcus was asking Kirk to turn around while she stripped, it was disingenuous. She seemed to be coy about being offended, and that I pin on the writers. The scene felt like it was more:

“Yeah, Carol Marcus doesn’t want Kirk to look, but she actually does, though she pretends to be offended because we all know that Kirk and Marcus will have a relationship anyway”.

That scene was unnecessary, and might be best deleted on the dvd/Blu Ray release.

Another problem I had was the two cat-women in bed with Kirk. That was also poornographic, and finding out that they were played by two sisters, well……ick. That’s just gross.

Apart from that the movie was great. But those two scenes we could have done without…..

56. dmduncan - May 20, 2013

Hey BB, I’m sorry if you are still smarting that I didn’t take your alleged “deductive powers” seriously, but the truth is, you didn’t get Khan right because you correctly deduced anything. In fact, I doubt those of you who are bragging about your deductive prowess even know what a deduction is or how to distinguish it from an inductive inference.

I’m not being a smartass here. Every time you brag about your deductive skill, you don’t seem to be using the word “deductive” correctly, because what you seem to mean is that not only that you deduced BC was Khan, but that you deduced it CORRECTLY.

I did NOT deduce BC was playing Khan because there was not enough evidence to make a deductive case that was both valid and sound. The difference between us is that I understand that and you do not appear to.

What’s more, I’ll even give you a chance to refute me. Right here and now. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m often wrong and not ashamed of it. So here’s your chance to prove it.

You must produce for me a deduction that is both valid AND sound where the conclusion is that Khan is the BC character. That means not only that the conclusion MUST follow from the premises (you MUST have at least one premise), but that the premise must also be TRUE. And of course those premises must be true statements constructed from the “evidence” we had going into this little game.

And I’ll just assume you know what a major premise is, what a minor premise is, what a middle premise is, how to tell them apart, and what happens to your attempted conclusion when they are not in the correct order.

So, you say you deduced it? Great. Show me your work, just like you’re doing a math problem. List your premises and the conclusion that follows from them where that conclusion ends up being that BC is Khan, and if you do it correctly I will have no choice but to admit that you correctly deduced it, just like a math problem, because conclusions in deductive inferences that have true premises ARE ALSO true, and true absolutely (and yes, I’m thinking syllogistically here now because i don;t see any way you’re going to be able to come up with a “Therefore BC is Khan” conclusion following a single premise.

Oh, and a blog post doesn’t count unless it contains that work I just mentioned.

Until that happens, my position is what it has been for months now: IF you got it right THEN you got it right and I got it wrong for one and only one reason: It was UNTHINKABLE to me that JJ would go back to the days of casting John Wayne to play Genghis Khan especially after he was so concerned about casting Cho (Korean) as Sulu (Japanese).

You didn’t correctly deduce anything from the evidence, you simply had no problem thinking like JJ in a situation where he ended up thinking like you did.

Actually, you should be less proud of that meeting of the minds than you seem to be. I am glad to have gotten it wrong under the circumstances. That is to say, it is preferable to me to have gotten it wrong than to have gotten it right because I duplicated in my own head without any difficulty an archaic Hollywood casting mindset that JJ Abrams capriciously manifested to assign that role.

I’m proud of my error. I can’t be hit over the head with it.

I do hope that clarifies my position.

57. Trekman93 - May 20, 2013

Who was better?
Ricardo Montalban or Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan?
Both of their portrayals of the character were very good. And I’m caught in across fire between the two for me.
Anyone can answer this question if you like to.

58. dmduncan - May 20, 2013

And for those who want a more musical version of my position:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J4GBDv57lw4

59. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

56. dmduncan

I had the same problem with the Mandarin in Iron-Man III

Something must be going wrong at Paramount HQ. They just can’t pull the trigger on a big bad villian.

60. Pg - May 20, 2013

The woman was wearing almost a swimsuit
like outfit, and earlier on in the film the ladies
got to see Pine shirtless and in his boxer briefs.

The point of the scene was here was a woman finally
getting Kirk to listen and “turn around”..
It wasn’t to demean women.

People need to seriously lighten up a little.

Loved the movie!!!

61. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Perhaps it takes a real screwd man to make up such a bad villian.

62. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

Had the writers featured both Kirk and Marcus changing at the same time, then my opinion on the scene would be different. They’d be treating both characters as being mature, and comfortable with seeing each other in their underwear while still acting professional. Both characters would be equal, and no one would care.

#56.

Well, I don’t believe I have used the term “deduction” myself in how I came to the conclusion that Khan would be the villain in the movie. And while I have been quite brash about my prediction in the past couple of years leading up to the movie, you should also know that after the release, I have been fairly quiet about the issue, apart from a brief mention or two. One of those times was in response to one your posts congratulating me. :-)

And as I said before, my predictions were based on some clues, but also instinct.

For instance, the writers said that there would be clues to the movie put in the comics. A lot of people were assuming then that what was in the comics were potentially in the sequel as well, ie Gary Mitchell, Landru, etc. I just thought in reverse, that what WASN’T hinted at in the comics could be just as much a clue in of itself. No mention of augments, Khan, Botany Bay, eg. Heck, Mike Johnson himself deflected questions about whether Khan would be in comics or not.

63. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

#60.

Except that Kirk tried to look after the first time Marcus asked him to turn around. So no, there was no respect shown for Marcus on the part of the writers.

64. Chris Freeman - May 20, 2013

You know how there are now interviews coming out where Berman and Braga talk about Enterprise and how they had ideas to take Trek in new directions but the studio shut them down and told them to play it safe?

I hope in 10 years we get those from Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, etc. These are the quotes I hope for:

“We wanted to really investigate what would happen if Star Fleet was pushed in a more corrupt militaristic direction, but the studio heads said shooting more torpedoes satisfied that.”

“John Harrison was originally just a dude, but the studio heads said that it wasn’t Star Trek enough, so we shoehorned Khan’s name in there.”

“The script originally had a believable moment where Spock realized how much he needed Kirk and the character had a real, original turning point that we never saw in the 1960s version of Spock, but the studio heads told us to just copy the TWOK scene but flip it.”

Until then, I’m blaming them for this lazy, surface-level comic book movie written for 13-year-olds.

65. Spocks Beard - May 20, 2013

After seeing a couple more times, I have to say I like it more and more with each viewing. I think the film is more intelligent than a lot of people give it credit for. Thank you Bob Orci and Co. for a fun movie that is Star Trek in my opinion.

66. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

typo aabove…

Perhaps it takes a real shrewd man to make up such a bad villian.

67. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 20, 2013

@60. Pg

“The woman was wearing almost a swimsuit” – yes, and not very revealing either. But it was her undies, not a swimsuit. Psychologically, there is a considerable difference.

“got to see Pine shirtless and in his boxer briefs” – yeah, but if you blinked, you missed it. You could have gone out for more popcorn during the Marcus reveal and still not misssed it (OK, I exaggerate a bit…)

“The point of the scene was here was a woman finally getting Kirk to listen and “turn around”..” – Yes. This why I ‘defended’ it on another thread. This scene shows Kirk’s immaturity, and that Marcus is not going to be one of his easy conquests, especially taken with her comments regarding Chapel… However, he is her superior, and she has to tell him several times to turn around. The message to viewers is mixed at best.

The movie in general was a bit rushed to keep it at around 2 hours. As a result, we did not see the deleted scene where Marcus explains her English accent. There has been some quite vocal complaint regarding her use of an English rather than American accent on this site, and I would assume the general viewing public might also be wondering why the inconsistency as Admiral Marcus is obviously American. I would posit that, if movie time was so scarce, this scene should have been pulled in favour of that one.

68. dmduncan - May 20, 2013

Correction to 56:

Major, minor, and middle PREMISE should be TERM. There is no middle PREMISE.

69. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 20, 2013

… and here is an acticle with Damon Lindelof admitting that the underwear scene was gratuitous

http://io9.com/damon-lindelof-admits-the-star-trek-nudity-was-gratuit-508967420

70. Karen - May 20, 2013

@60 pg

I don’t want to start a fight, truly, but please let me ask you to think about this. The Kirk scene was brief, and the way it was shot was more about the 2 hot alien chicks he was in bed with. At no time did the camera linger or focus on his naked torso. And at no time did he ask the girls not to look at him. It was a post-coital moment, implicitly if not explicitly sexual. They set that up with the tracking shot from the floor, focusing on the discarded bra, then tracking up to the bed.

The camera in the shuttle pod scene, however, was explicitly standing in for Kirk’s gaze, in other words the male gaze. It lingered on her body, and the slightly upward tilt of the camera angle was used to emphasise her body/sexuality. This was an explicitly sexualised scene, placed in a non-sexualised context. Its purpose was to strip her of professionalism and reduce her to her semi-naked body and its objectification by Kirk. The fact that he is her superior officer is an added negativity to the scene. A subordinate female officer asked a superior male officer to respect her privacy. He refused. That is an abuse of power.

Compounding this is the fact that the male gaze within the context of the scene is Kirk’s, which is in fact a reflection of Abrams’ male gaze, which is standing in for the straight male section of the audience. This automatically posits the straight female section of the audience as the object. Straight men are aligned with Kirk, women with Alice Eve. So with this directing choice women are made the unwilling objects of the male gaze.

I get that this kind of stuff is often baffling or even outright confronting for some male viewers to deal with. But I am asking you, sincerely, to please try looking beyond what you’re so familiar with. I need you to consider the fact that since the vast majority of directors are male, as are the vast majority of writers, that we have a default storytelling mechanism in place — and that is the male gaze. And sometimes it’s so ingrained, so pervasive, that even people who aren’t overtly hostile to women – as I assume the Trek team aren’t — fall into the trap of defaulting to this oppressive male gaze.

Early on in the first season of White Collar, there’s a scene where we’re in Neal’s apartment. He’s lying on the couch reading a book, and he’s shirtless. The camera lingers on his bare torso for a long time, caressingly. We are gazing upon him — and the director is a woman. The camera, the audience, is looking at this half naked man the way cameras often look at half naked women. But this time it’s the female gaze. It’s quite striking.

I’m not trying to bash men. I am asking you to look at the world through different eyes.

71. Captain, USS Northstar - May 20, 2013

@12 — I had that same Q&A compilation idea and @14 — great news! I eagerly look forward to that.

@60 — agree with your analysis of that scene.

I wonder how both relationships (Kirk/Marcus and Spock/Uhura) will play out on the five-year mission? So many great dynamics going on in this “new” cast of characters — this would be SO worthy of a TV series.

I saw someone who posted the idea of a 13-episode season so the actors could do other projects: brilliant idea. The same poster also suggested a couple of years’ worth of episodes leading to a 2016 movie and then another two or three years after that.

How awesome would that be?!

72. dmduncan - May 20, 2013

70: “Straight men are aligned with Kirk, women with Alice Eve. So with this directing choice women are made the unwilling objects of the male gaze.”

So you’re saying that lesbians left the theater feeling they’d been eye raped by James Kirk?

73. PEB - May 20, 2013

@25 Commodore Adams

Dude, get a life. Yeah, I’m sitting at work and MISSED that this is a new thread, but your response is the reason that people who post in these threads can get a bad reputation. Again, get a freakin life.

74. AyanEva - May 20, 2013

Well I voted for more Cumberbatch in that poll because of course I did. LOL I do think they could have done a bit more with his character but he was wonderful with what he was given.

After four viewings now, some further thoughts:

They needed to take a bit more time to really explain Adm. Marcus’ plan. You can piece together his motivations but it’s not really answered if his plan was always to do what he did with the Enterprise or if that was a last minute plan. I thought it was a last minute plan but if it was, how did Khan know about it? So it must have been planned well in advance but he maybe hasn’t picked a ship for the mission yet and saw an opportunity with the Enterprise. This should be made clearer, I think.

Also what the heck happens with Khan and his crew now? They’re just going to be indefinitely frozen until the cryotubes break down? They have to do something with them and I think he’s too good of a villain to just leave him frozen. It would have been kinda fun if he turned out A-OK in the end and they dropped him and his crew off on a nicer planet this time around.

I feel like since he’s merely frozen he’ll be back at some point, which I’m totally fine with.

75. BotanyBay - May 20, 2013

Sulu did a great job as acting captain…if Cho would be down, who wouldn’t love an eventual tv series with him commanding this:

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2013/041/c/1/concept___ar_excelsior_by_jetfreak74656-d2e3rby.png

76. Aix - May 20, 2013

What a waste of Cumberbatch this movie is. And why does he have to be Khan? I get upset every time it crosses my mind. Hahaha! Such a waste of creative opportunity, that decision.

Even though I’ve always wanted to be Kirk and this is actually his movie, I don’t want to be Chris Pine right now. Haha! All the spotlight is on the villain and Spock and Alice Eve. I wonder if Pine and Shatner talk about that.

77. Karen - May 20, 2013

@72 dmduncan

There’s a good chance. Bottom line is, when it comes to the male gaze, the sexual orientation of women is irrelevant because all women are seen as viable objects of desire. (This is why lesbians in South Africa are raped by men, to turn them straight again. Wish that wasn’t true, but it is.) The bottom line is, that by its very nature the objectification of women in popular culture removes their agency. It removes their individuality and silences them.

But let me stress — this is not about labelling all men as misogynists. That is patently untrue. Some men are made just as uncomfortable by this stuff as many women are. It’s the difference between recognising cultural behaviours and norms, and being aware that individuals do their own thing. By pointing this out, I am in no way stating that all men objectify women or actively seek to silence them. But some do.

I get the acute discomfort when this kind of thing is discussed, I really do. As a caucasian, I often find myself bristling when matters of race are discussed, because when cultural problems are pointed out I can feel that I’m personally being accused of racism. So it’s easy to get defensive.

All I’d say is please, consider the pov of the people who are on the rough end of this pineapple. When I say that as a woman, there are things that happen in film and tv (and in this specific case, Trek) that make me feel unsafe, unseen, unheard and objectified, please believe me. Just because you aren’t being made to feel that way doesn’t mean the feelings aren’t valid, or that the underlying dynamic isn’t there.

78. HubcapDave - May 20, 2013

@75

Ooooooooh! I LIKE that! Much nicer than the original Excelsior!

79. Hat Rick - May 20, 2013

Honestly? This movie was too intelligent for many people to grasp.

Think about it:

In one fell swoop, this movie EVISCERATED — UTTERLY CONDEMNED — the horrific killing of innocents through the use of robotic killing machines (drones, and now, actual robots — Google it; it’s coming); it also went beyond the original TWOK ideas about death and proceeded toward actual resurrection.

And that’s just the surface of it.

Face it, friends — this movie was as deeply evocative of eternal and troubling themes as any in recent memory, and it hid these themes in a sweet candy coating. It’s the medicine that went down smoothly, to the tune of $164 million worldwide.

What more can you want?

Sure, there are those who don’t want their medicine; they want Iron Man. They want pop and superficiality only. They want Fast and Furious. They want Transformers. LET THEM HAVE THAT.

For a movie with the heavy philosophical meaning that this one does, and that — subconsciously — raises as many questions as any work of fiction in recent memory — the fact that it has made even one dollar on the popular market should amaze.

Earlier I said that this movie could be equal to the likes of Paradise Lost. Kirk dies; yet he lives again. Khan goes back to eternal sleep — a superhuman condemned (Nieztsche!). I dare you to find a better movie, thematically, that has done a better job of appealing to the masses.

It’s time to drop the fixation on $100 million and appreciate this masterpiece for what it is: A true jewel among jewels. It is a movie that makes me proud to be an American, and a citizen of Planet Earth.

80. Dee - lvs moon surface - May 20, 2013

1- I voted ” it’s perfect the way it is”, if it had something more than that I would have died exhausted inside the theater … I have no idea how Scotty endured the run … lol

2- OK Villain

3- Best Star Trek film… for now!

;-) :-)

81. TrekmadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

9. Joe

“You (Mr. Abrams/Orci) are a worthy successor to George Lucas for all the wrong reasons.”

Ouch. But it makes a lot of sense after seeing the latest Trek..

82. Dee - lvs moon surface - May 20, 2013

I forgot to say

I’ll probably see the movie 3 times in the theater … and then I’ll be waiting for the blu-ray

83. TrekmadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Iron-man II was way better. Give it a chance, Dee. At least once.

84. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

The scenes with the cat ladies and Kirk and the scene with Carol Marcus getting changed were not pournographic. I think, that you, Red Dead Ryan and others, need to apologize to the film’s production team and the three female actresses, Alice Eve, Katie and Kellie Cottrell and the one male actor, Chris Pine.

Po-nography has a nasty connotation associated with the word. Neither of these scenes could possibly qualify.

It was an ignorant, disgusting and demeaning comment.

The reality is that had the scenes actually been truly pronographic, STID would not have received a PG-13 rating in the US. The movie received an M-rating (Violence) in NZ.

I am really sick of this negative, pathological obsession associated with the sight of any human skin shown in any kind of sensual way..or not, on film. Please – grow up.

85. Dee - lvs moon surface - May 20, 2013

Mr. Bob Orci… are you there?

Let me say the movie is so awesome that I did not pay attention to “shirtless Kirk” … btw, that was so fast it was impossible to pay attention … I hope the bluray helps!

;-) :-)

86. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

“and she has to tell him several times to turn around.”

Carol Marcus went into the shuttlecraft (does she not have her own quarters?) and told him to turn around. I took it that he did not quite realize what she was doing so he turned around to look. At that point, she repeated “Turn around” which he did. She told him to turn around twice – not several times.

Hopefully I’ll see the film again tomorrow, so I’ll make sure I count up the number of times…

87. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 20, 2013

“turn around … I said turn around… now!”

88. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 20, 2013

Forgot to add, Kirk turns back to watch her between the first and second “turn around”.

89. Meme - May 20, 2013

If you are asking what the movie needed more of, besides of course Cumberbatch, its breathing room. The action is great, but there was no breathing room in between action sequences to think or process the plot or the pathos. As a result, it seems some have left the theater completely baffled by what happened in the story. This is a shame because I think this is a pretty tightly woven, well thought out story. Also, more Cumberbatch please. Explore the anti-hero.

90. Dee - lvs moon surface - May 20, 2013

#76. Aix

What are you talking about?

The BEST surprise of the movie is Pine/Kirk… his best performance in a movie!
The villain wasn’t a surprise in anyway… only if you are talking about Admiral Marcus, Peter Weller, he definitely is the great villain in this movie!

btw, the crew of Enterprise, the actors are FANTASTIC!

91. Captain Jake Sisko - May 20, 2013

I remember in an interview I read somewhere that Bob Orci talked about this Alternate Reality being a Quantum Reality which means that things that happen in the Prime Universe happen in this Universe albeit in different ways or things that did not happen in Prime happen in this universe i.e. the Destruction of Vulcan.

All this nonsense about retread of WOK. I wont waste my time arguing. Suffice to say it was the best Star Trek movie to date. It was well done.

A lot of people whine about it not being Trek but the greastest thing I pulled from it was in this alternate reality, how far would Starfleet go to preserve its way of life? Vulcan was a major power in the Federation. In this alternate reality a major power was obliterated by a time displaced pissed off Romulan. It scared the Federation and their enemies saw an opening. The Klingons saw blood in the water and Marcus found one of historys greatest weapons and decided to use it.

In the Trek universe cosmetic surgery and DNA resequencing are mainstays. More than likely Marcus had Khans skin tone and features changed to hide his identity. Anyway a great great movie.

92. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

9. Joe

I’d reconsider seeing Trek again with your son. You should take him to see it.

The boy will be encouraged by the bold and wonderful vision of our future world.
Even if there was alot of drama going on that he probably won’t understand.

Explain him your thoughts, I am sure he will greatly benefit from the experience.

93. Anthony Pascale - May 20, 2013

The thing about the Alice Eve undies scene is it highlights a quirk of their new uniform setup. They have the dress greys for when you are at Starfleet Command or on Earth, the colorful tunics when you are on board ship and now these new flightsuit/jumpsuit things when you are on a shuttle. Like when Kirk meets Marcus he is in grey, then he is in flightsuit in the hanger then he is in gold shirt on the bridge all within an hour or so. Introducing this flightsuit uniform doubles the amount of dressing and undressing people have to do whenever they go anywhere. So I imagine scenes like Alice getting into her flightsuit on the shuttle happen all the time in Starfleet. Its probably a running joke with crews. Young ensigns probably try to make sure they get assigned shuttle duty when that certain officer is headed out, etc.

Personally I think the costumers had too much time on their hands. I say put on your duty tunic and head up to the ship. Then again why are they taking shuttles in the first place?

And we have yet to see specialized landing party uniforms. If you are using the shuttle, do you get out of your gold/red/blue uniform, put on flight suit and then fly down to the planet only to then put on your landing party outfit?

94. Philip Grom - May 20, 2013

@boborci, amazing film, and tried tweeting you with an idea about possibly using the Talosians in the next one, and allow for them to create an interesting dynamic between the Federation and the Klingons, and as far as 50th anniversary elements are concerned, what better way to get Next Gen characters or Shatner in the movie than with those hallucinating, all powerful aliens pulling the strings?

Something to think about, if I may be so bold to suggest.

95. Bob Mack - May 20, 2013

#86 – There’s not a one of us males in here that would have stayed “turned around.” Sorry. There’s a little bit of Kirk in all of us. (Except for the cat ladies thing. I’m not sure what to make of that.)

And why couldn’t we have gotten a little “What is it with you?” to Kirk from an incredulous Dr. McCoy?

But I am with you otherwise. A little more exposition on Dr. Marcus would have been nice. I expect we might get some of that in the next film.

96. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

90. Dee

I agree. Pine was great!

97. Captain Jake Sisko - May 20, 2013

Another thing… I dont think Khan agreed to go back into stasis. They put him back because they could not risk him being in some penal colony which he would escape.

Another thing very cool bringing Carol Marcus into the Five year mission. Well played indeed. I like it. They needed another woman in that core group. Since it is a Quantum Reality maybe David will be Diana or maybe twins? Hey thats the beauty of an alternate reality. Fans in their rage and misguided anger fail to see that. They are so busy with their check lists they fail to appreciate the beauty of this film and they ignore what the writers said with the first film. This is a new world and all the things that happened in the old universe will happen in new ways. Maybe VGer is intercepted by the Borg. Maybe Charlie X boards another ship. Etc.

Star Trek fans are the worst. When there is no Trek they moan about there being no Trek but when they get it they have their Roddenberry tricorders out finding fault with every little thing. This movie was superb. Hate on it all day. It was fantastic.

98. Dee - lvs moon surface - May 20, 2013

There are people saying a lot of different things or the same… btw… ;-) :-)

http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/opinions/why-star-trek-into-darkness-works-despite-its-many-flaws.php

99. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Man. Have some of you EVER watched the old Trek. This was’nt all about present day metaphors. TOS was full of machismo.

100. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

In case you forgot….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytbkGPAopC4

Especially at .33 secs.

101. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

I just read the article about Damon Lindelof admitting to the gratuitous nature of the Carol Marcus underwear scene. In the comments section was this -

“but your great post reminded me of a different part that effected me— the skull crushing scene. For me, the idea of a daughter watching a man brutally crush the skull of her living father was so fucking horrible, I couldn’t get over that. Not only the act itself, but how frivolously it was dealt with in the movie— that is, that the reality of witnessing that kind of brutality didn’t realistically impact the characters. It just happened, and was thrown away. When horrible, senseless violence is portrayed in media with little to no consequences to the protagonist(s), to me that’s tragic desensitization of violence, which ultimately does harm to our ability as a culture to have the mental space for empathy— one of our greatest, pro-social virtues.”

This is right on point. We are negatively obsessed about the wrong things. I have mentioned all the kicking and punching etc that took place in this movie, but I agree that this scene with Khan killed Marcus the way he did would have to be the worst – truly obscene – yet no one, until now, has mentioned, as far as I can recall.

What the hell is wrong with people? So many are so hung up on the sight of some skin that they seem to overlook the very worst of obscenities…so sad, so very worrying – seriously.

Mind you, I can recall some really horrible, obscenely violent scenes in the Fringe series – another Bad Robot production. Are you guys OK? – I do seriously wonder at times.

102. Eric - May 20, 2013

The part I don’t get is why do they need Khan’s blood in particular? McCoy had a bunch of these guys frozen next to him (he even unfroze one to get the cryopod). Why not just take the blood from that guy?

103. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Obvious Eric. McCoy, the best blood-letter in Star Fleet, knew he had to match Kirks blood type. Y’know they still have to do that in the future. He found, from thier Obma chips in thier arms, that BC-Khan was the only one with the same blood type as Kirk – Type-A, of course..

That was fun. We should keep count of these.

Since you’re 101 that will be #1.

How about this one for #2…

Does anyone have any idea how Sulu, Uhura and Spock made it out of the landing bay of the Enterprise in a shuttlecraft while it was submerged in the sea?

104. Li'l Shat - May 20, 2013

I think it’s a good thing that JJ Abrams will now be moving on to Star Wars. I just hope he takes his entire ‘creative’ team along with him–especially his screenwriters, and most particularly Damon Lindelof.

I care naught for Star Wars but I do love Star Trek, and I’m tired of hacks ruining my beloved franchises. Let Abrams and his ‘mystery’ team–always suggesting there’s a rabbit in that empty hat of theirs that they’re going to pull out one of these days–move on to a vessel that’s appropriately empty for them. Get out of the stuff I care about. Just make sure you take Lindelof and his vain and perpetual 5 o’clock shadow along with you.

105. Karen - May 20, 2013

@95 Bob Mack

Really? Think about what you’re saying. A woman asks you to respect her privacy. She asks you not to look at her while she’s changing into a flight suit. And your response is what? To hell with you honey, I don’t care what you want, I want to look at you half naked and that’s the only thing that matters?

Because if that’s what you’re saying, if you’re saying that her needs are irrelevant, that your desire to look at her trumps her wish not to be looked at? Then I believe you have very neatly made my case.

Explain to me how explicitly and deliberately ignoring a woman’s request for privacy makes any man truly manly, or the kind of man any sane woman would want to be with.

106. Elasi Prime - May 20, 2013

I want to see Captain Kirk fight the Elasi Pirates!

107. Curious cadet - May 20, 2013

@70 Karen,
“A subordinate female officer asked a superior male officer to respect her privacy. He refused. That is an abuse of power”

Ironic isn’t it? Here’s a movie with a warning about the build up and abuses of the military industrial complex, and in an effort to titilate their teenage target demographic, the filmakers inadvertently demonstrate the problem that is sexual harassment in today’s military. It’s sad that they don’t take this more seriously considering the real cases of rape and abuse female soldiers are forced to endure at the hands of their male superiors which rarely result in any kind of justice for the victims.

108. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

The real question is – what did Damon Lindelof learn from writing the scene with Carol Marcus changing her uniform with Captain Kirk in the same room?
(I assume he wrote the scene since he is the one commenting on its gratuitousness).

Bob Orci representing the male of the species – are you able to answer the question as well? I’ll give you a clue – it is woman and turn around…

109. Curious Cadet - May 20, 2013

@91. Captain Jake Sisko,
“Marcus found one of historys greatest weapons and decided to use it”

I think this is the fundamental disconnect about who and what Khan is, and the problem with using him at all in this story.

———————————
“More than likely Marcus had Khans skin tone and features changed to hide his identity.

So, it wasn’t enough to merely alter facial features, they also had to change his skin tone and eye color? Because someone on the street might say, ‘hey who is that Northern Indian guy? He doesn’t look anything like him, but he’s the same ethnicity as that 300 year old eugenics superman who ruled a quarter of earths population in the 1990s I learned about in high school history class ten years ago … wonder if its him?’

More likely Harrison is lying about being Khan Noonien Singh.

110. Matt Wright - May 20, 2013

Feilica Day has a pretty good write-up on her disappointment with the way women were portrayed in the new movie, especially when JJ Abrams has written good roles for women in the past.

“Where are the women? The strong women? The women we’d like to see in 200 years? Where are they in this world? They certainly aren’t around the roundtable when the Starfleet are learning about Khan…”

http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/50858883769/star-trek-movie-spoilerzzzz

111. DggJag - May 20, 2013

I took my two teen children and my daughter’s boyfriend (who isn’t a trek fan), to see it today and they loved it. My children and I are big TOS fans and we were very critical of the 09 movie. This movie wasn’t without faults but it sure was good. Spocks’s yell was off the mark but the scene was awesome. This really is a good movie. Now we can look forward to a five year mission!

112. Li'l Shat - May 20, 2013

They’re just pulling a long Khan on the viewer. This movie makes absolutely no sense.

Khan is now a skinny British white guy. Scotty just flies into a top secret hangar and boards a top secret ship–no problem! Gratuitous underwear scenes! Featured prominently in the trailers of course. Dead tribbles being revived with magic blood as foreshadowing! The Wrath of Khan ripped off and turned on its head! Spock rather forcibly (by the inept and clunky script) to call Kirk “Jim” with pretend affection and depth (when these two barely know each other yet)! Kirk having his command taken from him–only to have it handed back shortly afterward! Nimoy brought back for an entirely gratuitous scene after having passed the torch to the new crew in the first movie! Etc.

There is no real drama here, and nothing makes much sense. It’s part of a long Khan from Abrams and crew and truly earns it’s name: it is indeed a Star Trek Into Darkness.

LINDELOFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

113. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

I believe that one of the writers, or J.J. Abrams himself, admitted that the movie contained moments of sexism.

Now, of course Keachick will disagree with people’s objections to Kirk trying to get a peek at an almost nude Carol Marcus, but she has a thing for “her captain”, Chris Pine, and thus, cannot or will not understand other peoples’ concerns and objections regarding this scene.

114. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 20, 2013

God, I really HATE Montalban Khan. A perfectly good interesting movie does not make sense because this Harrison guy with white skin and blue eyes chooses to call himself Khan? – Bullshit.

See what you have created Bob and co. You should have heeded the words of people who screamed NO KHAN!

Anyway, I enjoyed Star Trek Into Darkness, so long as I don’t take too much to heart all the negative, silly bullcrap I am reading here.

115. Karen - May 20, 2013

@107 Curious Cadet -

The irony, yes, it burns, it burns!

Seriously. I mean, the cluelessness gives me a giant headache. And it makes me very, very sad.

@110 Matt Wright -

Thanks for that link. Interesting commentary. And yes, everywhere you look in the film the testosterone is kind of overwhelming. The problem is, I think, that so many of us are so conditioned to seeing a male-majority power structure that it becomes the default norm. Shifting that perception, sensitising storytellers to this undesirable status quo, is really hard work – but it has to be done. I find it disheartening in the extreme that it in the 21st Century it’s acceptable for women to be erased from the landscape.

What I do appreciate though is the chance to touch on this here, and not be subjected to the kind of vile abuse that women receive in other forums. Class act, Anthony, and everyone else. Thank you.

116. Li'l Shat - May 20, 2013

If Khan wanted to save his people so desperately, why in the world did he choose to hide them in torpedoes?

Whyyyyyyyyy?

117. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Like mud in your eye Keachick.

I wonder if they’re saying Star Fleet wanted Khan around just so they could use him as a boogie man to ‘cart out’ any time they wanted too.

Doesn’t really matter who’s playing the ‘Khan’ this time.
Or does it, Keachick, and all Trekkies alike?

I wonder if that’s what had those clever little dickens so concerned about for the past so many years. Did they build this metaphor so close to current events as if to say…

118. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

#117.

TrekMadeMeWonder,

We get it already. You hate the movie. Stop spamming. You posted sixteen times already on this thread. You’re getting to be as repetitive as William Bradley.

SHEESH!

119. Matt Wright - May 20, 2013

@ Karen – One of the things that was really great about the TNG-era productions is that they brought in talent because of their open door policy. Out of that spirit Jeri Talyor was brought in to a really important position as a producer and story editor, and later as a co-creator and executive producer of Voyager. The writers and other production staff generally only have really good things to say about her and the guidance and voice she brought to the franchise. Sadly, that seems to have been more a fluke in Hollywood than a trend :-/

120. William Bradley - May 20, 2013

How many dozens of comments saying the same thing have you made today, and every day? Without any of them being replies to various flames and attacks …

>118. Red Dead Ryan – May 20, 2013
You’re getting to be as repetitive as William Bradley.

121. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

#120.

Oh, I’ve made a few constructive comments. More than either you or TMMW have. And I know I’ve made fewer negative ones than either you or TMMW.

Nice try pal.

:-)

122. William Bradley - May 20, 2013

Folks complaining about the testosterone-laden attitudes of these films, which are not very compared to most big movies, might want to keep in mind that this is all based on the ’60s Star Trek. TOS was not PC.

That was TNG.

That said, we are getting a significantly more adolescent version of Kirk in these films than we had in the ’60s.

Not to mention a much more emo Spock.

The two times I saw STID, Kirk did look away from the obviously gratuitous shot of Carol Marcus. (Which looks designed for a trailer, actually.) He just didn’t do it immediately.

It would have been good to have women and more people of color at that Starfleet war council in San Francisco attacked by Ret-Khan.

But as for the main cast, the characters were established a long time ago. And we don’t have the diversity we see in other Trek shows, especially my favorite, DS9.

123. William Bradley - May 20, 2013

I’m not interested in wasting any more of my time responding to your incessant attacks, but I will point out that you don’t respond in the least to my point, but simply level another of your attacks.

The point I made, which is very clear, is that you are commenting constantly, every day. And you are clearly a booster of this film and this take on Trek, and a staunch opponent of critical views.

>121. Red Dead Ryan – May 20, 2013
#120.

Oh, I’ve made a few constructive comments. More than either you or TMMW have. And I know I’ve made fewer negative ones than either you or TMMW.

Nice try pal.

:-)

124. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

116. Li’l Shat

The only thing I can think of is the JJ wanted Star Trek to be ahead of the game in the Superman re-telling arena.

Apparently, Kirk and company were able to do superhuman feats on Kronos. Especially when Kirk was beating on BC-Khan. I expected Kirk to have McCoy immediately address his broken fists. It look like he really laid into him in that shot, but then no ill effects in the following scene on the ship and bridge.

125. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

Have’nt these guys ever thrown a hard punch at someone’s head, let alone a BC-Khan jaw! It looked like you could have taken a board to BC too. That’s why I say this went Superman. Everyone seemed to have comic like abilities or no ill effects from extreme actions. Just like Checkov, too. If I were looking for someone to save Kirk and Scotty
I would surely not ever expect tiny Checkov to pull those two to safety!
121. Red Dead Ryan

It;’s a critique. Haven’t you ever had one?

BC Khan also need some backstory. How was the average viewer ever supposed to understand him or his missing ‘family’. Just not a really professional job on the writers and production side.

Heck, if the set corners didn’t match up, or if you gould see a matte line around the viewer we’d bitch.

Obviously the actors, the visuals, the graphics and music and were all perfect!

Why not the same for the concept and story telling.

I think its a fair question for the production. Unless, its exactly what they wanted, but for reasons that are not ideal for Star Trek.

126. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

#123.

And who was it that was warned by Anthony for spamming? Oh, yes, it was you!

Just a reminder for you.

:-)

127. good but disappointed - May 20, 2013

Just saw Distant Origen episode from STV, simply WOW!
problem with ST Into.. no drama, cuz drama does not sell, yet drama is what makes S T episodes keepers.
Even on Nemesis at the end, the conversation between Picard and B4 redeems that chapter in the story of Star Trek.
JJ is a good director but he makes rollercoaster rides not Oscar movies.

128. William Bradley - May 20, 2013

There you go again, anono “Red Dead Ryan.” Your purpose here is to attack and try to shut down critical views, thus making my point.

BTW, spamming means indiscriminately cutting and pasting material. I’m very familiar with people who try to do it on blogs.

Have a lovely rest of your evening, doing your thing.

129. Harrison is Mitchell - May 20, 2013

Spock wasn’t screaming “KKKAAAAAHHHHHHNNNNN!!!!!!” He was screaming “CCCOOOOOONNNNNN!!!!” John Harrison isn’t Kahn; he’s Gary Mitchell.

Proof #1: Alice Eve’s hairstyle.
Proof #2: Kahn doesn’t have magic life-giving blood but Gary Mitchell showed he could die and come back to life.
Proof #3: I’ve read the scripts for the 3rd and 4th movies, which will be filmed back to back and at the same time as Star Wars VII. JJ will be directing all of it.
Proof #4 Anybody that disagrees with me is racist.

130. good but disappointed - May 20, 2013

A back and forth conversation about what to do with a terrorist at the end would do wonders to this movie.

131. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

#128.

“There you go again, anono “Red Dead Ryan”. Your purpose here is to attack and try to shut down critical views, thus making my point.”

No, I was just pointing out how annoying it is seeing someone posting the same damn post over and over again ad nauseum. You clearly have missed the point of my responses.

132. BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack - May 20, 2013

Why are any of them following Kirk? He landed his spaceship in the OCEAN!? He did realize they have transporters right? He has shown no capability for command, when the vengeance is about to attack he spends time apologizing and being emo. The Enterprise never even fires a shot!

Scotty: Hey captain, this stuff you’re bring onboard can potentially kill us all!

Kirk: Do it! That mean man killed my daddy, I mean Pike!

Scotty: Ok…. Wtf? Um, come on stone goblin! Grab a flannel shirt and a stick! We’re homeless now!

Kirk: Shit, now I need a chief engineer. Checkov, you know anything about engines?

Checkov: Um, kind of, they make the ship go. If you open the ball valve by the warp core you get a get a great porter! Why don’t you just promote the engineer that was second in command?

Kirk: No time! Now, put on a redshirt lol!

133. Red Dead Ryan - May 20, 2013

#129.

Dude, watch the friggin’ movie again. Spock Prime refers to Benedict Cumberbatch’s character as KHAN NOONIEN SINGH.

“Anybody that disagrees with me is a racist.”

Anybody who posts a comment like that is an idiot.

134. Li'l Shat - May 20, 2013

The real problem with the ‘clever’ Wrath of Khan death reversal is that in the original Wrath of Khan, Spock’s death had real meaning and significance, in part because no one knew that Nimoy would be so fickle, but mainly because most viewers were aware of the Kirk/Spock dynamic and of how long these guys had been serving together and of how strong their friendship had become. It was poignant, painful, and tear-jerking when Spock died.

In Star Trek Into Darkness, we get two kids who’ve shared a few awkward hours of screen time together trying to pretend like they’ve got a suddenly-deep friendship that makes Kirk’s imaginary death (imaginary because anyone watching this movie already knew he wasn’t really dead) just as poignant as Spock’s passing in the original Wrath of Khan.

I’m sorry, but it’s a mistake and a total fail. If you buy into this crap, it’s because you’ve got too much emotionally invested in JJ’s Lindelof Trek to admit disappointment. These guys are hacks, and they’re conning you.

135. William Bradley - May 20, 2013

Naturally, irony escapes you.

131. Red Dead Ryan – May 20, 2013
No, I was just pointing out how annoying it is seeing someone posting the same damn post over and over again ad nauseum. You clearly have missed the point of my responses.

136. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 20, 2013

133. Red Dead Ryan

I formerly accuse you of being at least half Vulcan.

137. Li'l Shat - May 20, 2013

If JJ Abrams and his “creative” team chose to remake Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds, I can imagine that the birds would suddenly become chickens.

They’d do this to hide the fact that they’re really remaking The Birds. If asked, they’d adamantly deny it. “There are absolutely no birds in our movie!” the screenwriters and some actors would exclaim.

Halfway into the movie, we’d get angry chickens pecking the ankles off of shrieking innocent victims.

After viewing the movie, some viewers would ask, “Why did you deny that you were remaking The Birds?”

The screenwriters and some actors would reply, “It wasn’t a remake of The Birds at all, and there were no birds in the movie anyway–just aggressive chickens.”

138. BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack - May 21, 2013

Spock: Contact new Vulcan, ask for old me.

Old Spock: Oh no….

Nu Spock: Greetings, old me. I realize we were supposed to keep this time travel stuff confidential, but the captain had to run off and shoot and punch people before getting all the facts. So now we’re having this conversation in front of everyone….. Hm, I didn’t think this through, could have done this in private pretty easily. Oops. Have you ever met a guy named Khan?

Old Spock: You know I have sworn not to give you information that might alter your timeline that has absolutely nothing to do with mine for, some reason. I’m old, I’ve forgotten why, and the audience looks confused. Khan Noonien Singh is the greatest adversary the Enterprise has ever faced. You should be extremely cautious, and never trust him.

Nu Spock: Kirk is teaming up with him!

Old Spock: So, apparently the daddy issues lowered his IQ by 100 points? fascinating.

Nu Spock: There is no need to worry old me, I and my far superior confidence at command will bail us all out.

Old Spock: That is reassuring.

Nu Spock: Hey, in all your travels did you ever encounter an eBay seller named JackJack2413? He says he has a rare NX-01 pewter figurine, but I think it might be a scam.

Old Spock: Neither you or the audience needs this information. Goodbye. Please don’t call me again.

Nu Spock: But I’m going to need to know who the Borg are in the next movie!

the screen goes blank. The bridge crew of the Enterprise glance around in confusion.

139. Aurore - May 21, 2013

“I believe that one of the writers, or J.J. Abrams himself, admitted that the movie contained moments of sexism.”
_________

To my knowledge, he did not admitt to anything, from my perspective…so far…
( one has to watch the embedded video , in order to form one’s opinion about the “admission”)

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/technology/jj-abrams-admits-star-trek-into-darkness-a-bit-sexist/story-fn5h1ywy-1226627239282

…But, he might admit as much very soon….who knows…

140. Li'l Shat - May 21, 2013

An original Lindelof screenplay:

Kirk: No, don’t take away my command!

Admiral: Yes, we gave it to you too quickly and you’re too brash and headstrong.

Kirk: No!

Admiral: Yes! Enjoy wiping butts.

The admiral gets killed five minutes later in a contrived setup to get Kirk’s command back.

Kirk: My friend and mentor is dead. I must avenge him! Can I have my command back?

Another Admiral: Sure.

Kirk: Okay, thanks! Now I’ve been through some real hardships, now my command is legit! Hey Spock. Call me Jim!

Spock: Not until you’ve defeated our greatest nemesis and died.

Kirk: Really? That pasty white British guy?

Spock: Yes, he’s better than you.

Kirk: Why?

Spock: Because the plot calls for it. Now go ahead and die so you can magically come back in the same movie.

Kirk: Why? That seems a bit contrived.

Spock: Of course, but we’ll both get big fat paychecks. Now let’s both go ahead and pretend like this is both a great loss and a great trial, and like we’ve bonded now and have known each other for years.

Kirk: Before we’ve even embarked on our five year mission?

Spock: Just shut up and go with it. Abrams directed it and Lindelof was involved.

Kirk: That’s big Hollywood money!

Spock: Precisely. Never mind that our movie’s opening was softer than expected. It’s still better than the original Wrath of Khan! Even though we barely know each other yet.

Kirk: Spock?

Spock: Yes?

Kirk: This remake was a mistake, wasn’t it?

Spock: Why yes, Jim, it was.

141. Karen - May 21, 2013

@119 Matt Wright

Great point about Jeri Taylor. Her contributions go to show that having a woman producing doesn’t mean the essential masculinity of a series has to be threatened. Fwiw, I have no problem with celebrating masculinity in storytelling. I love it. But it doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. A strong woman doesn’t emasculate a man. Only a weak man who’s insecure in his masculinity finds a strong woman threatening, someone to be cut down to size.

One thing I’ll always remember about the TNG days was how Patrick Stewart went to bat for the women in the cast who weren’t being treated with parity. He used his weight to redress the balance. He’s a great man. And I think there was fabulous work done with DS9. I’d guess that Ron Moore had a lot to do with that, especially given his track record with female characters in his reboot of BSG. Of course, Voyager had some issues. But at least the horribly overt sexualisation of Seven was neatly undercut by Jeri Ryan’s performance – and the writing for her character.

As for people who want to justify sexism in 2013 by pointing to classic Trek of the 60s. Really? Really? It was fairly radical for its time. But this is not the 1960s. If you can update the look of the ship you sure as hell can update the gender disparities.

One thing I really did like from the new Trek team was their willingness to explore the humanity of the male characters. At some point nearly every main male character in the film is moved to tears – which is great to see. Because there is absolutely, I think, a cultural repression of men with regards to being able to express/show the full range of human emotion. That’s a great balance. Now let’s balance things the other way!

It’s not that women can’t be sexual beings within a storytelling context. They can. They should be. But not in the Carol Marcus mould, please. We can all be so much better than that.

Also fwiw? I think Bones’ crack about the beautiful blonde and the deserted planet but not the torpedo is one of his best lines. But then, nobody’s being demeaned there.

142. Disinvited - May 21, 2013

116. Li’l Shat – May 20, 2013

Well, it is an old smuggler’s dodge that if you make the container look so extremely dangerous that no one would want to risk opening it…

But, of course, that doesn’t answer the question of why Khan felt the ruse required actual functional photon torpedo warheads?

143. BobOrci Is a Crazy Hack - May 21, 2013

Int: Enterprise bridge

The crew is anxious, and nervous. The dread starship USS VENGANCE has suddenly appeared out of warp. The ship is massive. it as the ass of two Enterprise’s, maybe even three. The reanimated corpse of Robocop fills the viewscreen.

EVIL MARCUS: Kirk, you must give me that bad man.

Kirk: I Won’t! I have been reminded that execution without a trial is wrong! and I agree with it in this moment!

EVIL MARCUS: Kirk, you must tell me where he is so I can beam him up.

Kirk: You can’t do that! We’ve raised our shields! You can’t beam through shields! The great Kirk triumphs again! Which of you ladies wants to sleep with me?

EVIL MARCUS: ….. Your shields are down.

Kirk: What? I am so bad at this job! Why did you ever let me go on this mission?

EVIL MARCUS: I let you command the Enterprise because you are the perfect combination of stupid and incompetent. I counted on you to start a war with the Klingons Kirk, I did not foresee the competence of the rest of the crew.

Spock: Finally, something in this movie makes sense.

144. Li'l Shat - May 21, 2013

@142 Disinvited

“There is nothing I would not do for my family. In fact, I shall stick them all in functional photon torpedoes while they’re frozen and helpless, just to ensure their safety.”

145. Li'l Shat - May 21, 2013

@143

Carol Marcus: “You can’t blow up the Enterprise while your daughter is on board!”

Admiral Marcus: “I’m beaming you out against your will, because you’re my hot daughter!”

Carol Marcus: runs around a bit and screams, then gets beamed out

Kirk: Don’t kill my crew.

Admiral Marcus: Sorry, I have to be an ambiguous bad guy, so that people will debate who the true villain in the film is–me or Khan.

Kirk: Was this Lindelof’s idea?

146. Disinvited - May 21, 2013

#144. Li’l Shat – May 21, 2013

Can you imagine Spock Prime’s sendoff in TWOK if his coffin had been an actual loaded and armed photon torpedo? And he wasn’t even alive!

But I guess it would have served as a spectacular funeral pyre and Genesis would have healed. And then in TSFS we’d have to blame the regeneration of his body on the blast’s energy dissipating into the fluxing fields.

147. Aurore - May 21, 2013

1114. Basement Blogger – May 20, 2013
“@ 1110
Hey Aurore,
To me there was not enough evidence to deduce that the main villain would be Khan in 2009. What we had was DVD commentary about a proposed scene involving the Botany Bay. I would not reach the Khan conclusion with just that. After all, they could change their minds on who was going to be the antagonist….”

______________________

Bernie,

As you know, I had no other choice but to watch Star Trek (2009) on DVD.

While waiting for my copy of the film( which I receive in November 2009 ), I read rumours that the villain had to be Khan, or should be. At the time, evidently, I knew nothing about what Damon Lindelof had said in the commentary.

However, my impression was that, to some, due to what he seemed to represent for the franchise, Khan was the only logical choice for the sequel :

“…So it’s got to be Khan in the next one, right?…Khan has to be the villain. What do you think?”*

In 2009, that is the kind of question Zoë Saldaña got from an interviewer once, for instance.

Of course, as far as I remember, there were also articles about actors who would be perfect fits for the role.

…”Quite a few” of them had Hispanic sounding names…

:)

*If the management approves of it, I could provide you with a link to the source, should you request it.

148. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 21, 2013

Well, I’ve just got back from my 6th viewing – It’s my birthday, so I don’t feel any guilt ;-) Still enjoying the movie each time I see it, despite the obvious nitpicks. My older son has just given me my birthday presents: a Classic Star Trek Phaser, and a pair of LOTR ‘the one ring’ earrings. I guess he knows his mum very well…

149. BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack - May 21, 2013

The real problem with this movie is Khan. And I doubt he was Lindeloff’s idea. True, the movie falls apart once his “true nature” is introduced. But that has more to do with a complete lack of understanding of the character. I would ask everyone that is defending this movie to go rewatch Space Seed. That Khan is cold blooded, a sociopath, and not afraid to kill people to attain his goals. But he is not a complete psychopath. Would that Khan destroy the Enterprise when he has the biggest starship in the galaxy, and all his buddies back? Would he murder Kirk in cold blood? remember, this Khan has none of the motivation of TWOK character. His wife doesn’t exist, she isn’t dead, and he is attaining all of his crew.

I realize Spock makes the only competent command decision at this point and destroys the Vengance with those torpedoes, but Khan still makes his intentions clear before the double cross is apparent. This is not the Khan Noonien Singh of TOS. It’s a ridiculous imitation. And I haven’t even touched on a Hispanic man becoming the most British guy ever,

150. Li'l Shat - May 21, 2013

@146 Disinvited

That was Kirk’s intention all along! Spock wasn’t really dead, he was just frozen. And Kirk–being sworn to secrecy on this plot point by JJ Abrams–hid Spock’s frozen body in an active Genesis device because he first asked himself, “What would Khan do?” and that’s the answer he came up with!

And when the Genesis device with Spock’s frozen body in it hit the Genesis planet, an entirely new timeline was created!

151. Bucky - May 21, 2013

Khan has a thing for vengence, despite any reality. Starfleet had wronged him, and the Enterprise was a threat to the safety him and the Augments so they had to be eliminated. When the Vengeance was going down, he decided to take out SF HQ in a suicide dive because that’s what he would do.

152. Bucky - May 21, 2013

I actually loved those BobOrciIsACrazyHack and LilShat posts, not outta malice but I really, really miss http://www.fiveminute.net parodies of the movies and TV shows, they’re pretty decent but they never did one for Trek ’09 and probably won’t Into Darkness but this is a close as it’ll get.

153. Tim - May 21, 2013

More Cumberbatch but not as Khan! Doesn’t make sense but whatever. He’s a quality addition to Trek.
And More Chekov but not in Budgineering.
And less Carol Marcus. No matter how lovely Alice Eve is.

@90 Agree that Pine’s great. He has never been better, actually. But it’s true that the things people will talk about after watching this is the villain, then Spock, then Scotty/ Carol Marcus. Aren’t we all talking about the underwear scene, Spock’s scream and the skin color of a certain character?

154. Bucky - May 21, 2013

One thing I really loved about this movie is that, like the best TOS, it’s really all about Captain Kirk. You could say the first movie was a toss up between Kirk and Spock but this is really James T.’s show, (with a Spock assist at the end) and I think it’s better for it.

155. Khalifa - May 21, 2013

Star Trek Into Darkness is:

1. It’s perfect the way it is
2. Great Villain
3. Three (at least)
4. Great Star Trek Film

156. Marja - May 21, 2013

93, AP, could be a nod to contemporary flight suits. I think they’re pretty boss, but that is a lot of changing. In the military you learn to change clothes pret-ty quickly.

Dress uniform [equate to contemporary Dress A unif] is a rarity esp onboard, prob used mostly for visits to the principal’s office ;) and diplomatic negotiations and other occasions.

“Pajamas” [equate to conemporary Dress B unif] everyday wear on board ship and acceptable for viewing on first contact and visitors to the ship. But not ceremonial.

Flight Suit’s a better outfit for landing parties, when minidresses simply make NO sense.

I imagine by that time most shuttle crews will wear decent underwear and change in front of each other with little inhibition, much as stage actors and military recruits do. Agreed on the Fleet jokes about changing. I’m sure females will take equal opportunity to ogle new guys too.

157. Spock Jr. - May 21, 2013

Needs more Yeoman Rand!

That is all.

PS Fave movie ever! 8D

158. Borjy - May 21, 2013

I may have wanted more Khanberbatch in this but please JJ, less close-up of angry Khanberbatch if he ever returns and you direct the next one. Tom Hooper close-ups are annoying.

159. Jai - May 21, 2013

SirBroiler, re: #52:

“Broken record here, but Is there still any sliver of a chance at all that Harrison is not Khan? Please! Still holding out hope they had the wrong popsicle.!”

Alan Dean Foster’s newly-published official novelisation of “Star Trek Darkness” strongly hints John Harrison is not Khan. The wording is sneaky, but it’s not particularly subtle, and it’s made much clearer than it was in the movie.

The part of the book describing Kirk’s interrogation of Harrison in the brig makes it clear that Kirk thinks Harrison is lying when he claims his real name is “Khan”.

Kirk’s suspicions are shown as correct in the final pages of the book, just before the Epilogue — specifically pages 307 and 308 — when the start of the scene describing the two Starfleet technicians re-freezing Harrison in his crypod with the other 72 frozen Augments strongly hints Harrison’s real name isn’t “Khan”.

The description of the end of the scene also makes it clear the real situation involving those 73 Augments is much more complicated than the two Starfleet technicians or STID’s audience realise.

So the novelisation of STID (unlike the movie) makes it pretty obvious John Harrison is almost definitely not Khan Noonien Singh. Like I said, the wording is clever, and the reader needs to be “paying attention”, but it does jump out at you.

I don’t know if this aspect of the novelisation is some kind of retroactive damage control or it was secretly part of Bob Orci & co’s multi-movie story arc all along – especially as Damon Lindelof had already made statements in a pre-STID interview indicating Cumberbatch would probably be in Star Trek 3 if Harrison survived STID.

160. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

@109

Harrisson is lying about being Khan? I am pretty sure Marcus was thorough. In Star Trek lore they have had the technology from the Original Series to TNG to change the physical appearance of a person down to the DNA sequence. Marcus decided to conceal and alter his appearance. Given Earths history prior to First Contact with Vulcan its a given that who Khan was and what he had done was not lost on everyone. No cigar on your “Liam Neeson” theory. I highly doubt that Harrisson was lying about his identity.

The irony of all the arguments over his ethnicity is that Ricardo Montalban was Mexican. He was not the same ethnicity as the character. I hate the nitpicking I hate the denial. Its foolishness and its childish the reactions I had read. Its pathetic. In the new Superman film Perry White is African-American. Jimmy Olsen is a woman and the New Human Torch in the Fantastic Four film may be African-American. In this case, given the nature of the story I had no problem with Cumberbatch.

161. Mad Mann - May 21, 2013

New Yorker article on political allegory of STiD:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/05/is-star-trek-into-darkness-a-drone-allegory.html

162. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

Film canon trumps Novel canon or did you guys not know that. My God let the grasping at straws begin!!!!!!!!!

163. Jai - May 21, 2013

^^ “Alan Dean Foster’s newly-published official novelisation of “Star Trek Darkness” strongly hints John Harrison is not Khan.”

That should say “Star Trek Into Darkness”, of course. Sorry for the typo.

164. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

I think it needed a bit more exposition, if just to explain the plot better. *I* think the plot, generally, holds up well (barring magic blood). There are some “holes” which are somewhat easily explained (why didn’t he use one of the other 72 augments, for example).

Also, it looks like the official box office numbers were pretty close to the Box Office Mojo estimates from Saturday. A drop of 19.9% from Saturday to Sunday is pretty good, suggesting good word of mouth, but we’ll see how long it can keep that up.

As far as Khan Canon, I’d say movie > comics > novelization. We’re going to get both the After Darkness comics and some John Harrison specific comics that may help explain the backstory.

I’ve said this before, but is there room to come in and do a story that says “Khan” isn’t really Khan and is really another augment? Sure, there is enough of an opening to do that. One could also do a story where someone comes in an explains that Kirk is actually a Dominion changling spy too, probably.

The chances of either happening are, I think, quite slim. Not to mention that you undercut the whole Khan thing if he’s not really Khan. People are already criticizing them for having “Khan” in this movie in the first place. It’ll be even worse if it were actually a FAKE Khan.

I’m not even sure what the motivation is for those trying to argue that Khan isn’t Khan. An explanation for JJ’s whitewashing him? Trying to justify their views of the movie by “explaining away” what they didn’t like? I don’t know.

165. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

And I’ll also agree with Captain Jake Sisko @160 – It seems pretty clear that Admiral Marcus knew what he found when he awoke Khan, based on what Khan told Kirk (though I suppose you could argue he’s lying).

But if that is indeed the case, it would be virtually unbelievable that Marcus didn’t know who he had woken up and enlisted to work for him. He conceives this whole conspiracy to start a war with the Klingons, but he never bothers to check to see if Khan is actually Khan? Possible, I suppose, but I find it very unlikely.

166. Chris M - May 21, 2013

I absolutely loved the movie, I’ve seen it twice already and can’t wait to see it again!! :-)

167. 16309 - May 21, 2013

Great movie, a lot of fun. Kind of felt like Star Trek, but kind of didn’t. Maybe because they used so many lines from TWOK that is sounded so familiar.

When “Harrison” said his name was Khan, there was a definite groan from the audience. I gotta say I felt the same way. Also, there were probably too many laughs when Spock did his KHAAAAN yell.

Maybe they can’t afford better writers that can come up with new characters. I was disappointed that I ended up seeing Star Trek II The Wrath of Space Seed.

168. Nitpicker General - May 21, 2013

I spotted something – on my first viewing, no less – that now bugs the hell out of me when I see it again. It’s on a tiny thing, but I can’t stop seeing it.

In the London hospital scene, when Noel Clarke’s character is standing by his daughter’s bed, through the windows behind him you can see trees and leaves being moved by the wind. Only this was shot in the studio, and the outside view was composited in afterwards (or displayed on a screen behind the windows on-set). It’s a video clip which repeats, but is not synchronised, so you can see the tree branches suddenly jump back to the start of the clip. You wouldn’t generally notice this, but for some reason I did, and once I saw it, I couldn’t stop.

Tut, tut, Bad Robot. Something to fix for the Blu-Ray release :-)

169. Aurore - May 21, 2013

Correction. 147.

-received

-…there were also articles/blogposts about actors who would have been perfect fits for the role ( according to the people who wrote them ).

170. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

159 – I’m actually reading the sections of the novel you’re referring to. Kirk and Spock’s skepticism in the book is little more than what it is in the movie. It’s just expanded on a bit more because it’s, you know, a book.

And the book responds by this thought by Khan:

“Khan was not offended by the Vulcan’s skepticism. After all, his was a truly remarkable tale. When presented to others, incredulity was to be expected. He could only hope to counter disbelief with truth. Whether others accepted it or not meant nothing in the end. The truth would remain in spite of their doubt.”

I also don’t get the insinuation that the end of the book suggests it’s not Khan either. There is a line about “The individual known as Khan” but this is from the technicians perspective. E.g. they were just moving “some guy called Khan” into this vault with other cryogenically frozen people.

It seems curious that starfleet has a vault full of capsules “both contemporary and ancient” but I didn’t see any evidence that he wasn’t Khan.

171. mynameschris - May 21, 2013

I rewatched Space Seed the other day, in the episode when Scotty turns on the power on the Botany Bay Khan is automatically revived. This would have happened in this timeline too.

Marcus was already seeing wars and enemies, he probably had been for years, so as Khan in the film says he enlisted the ‘Superior Intellect’ to help him think up things that no one in Starfleet would normally think about.

How Khan was controlled with his crews fate is easy, in this timeline he didnt have the plot point of a gooey eyed historian to help him nor did they give him access to the whole ships database and a good thing as these are just 2 of the things wrong with that episode!

As for why Khan tried to obliterate Starfleet, its his MO, he took the Enterprise and threatened to kill the crew to get what he wanted. As for any motivation to do what he did, till Kirk showed up he thought his crew was dead, we heard that from him. His entire motivation up until then was to get revenge on Starfleet by starting a war and didnt seem bothered if he died in the process. Just because he got his crew back doesnt mean he would simply Warp off and find a new world to take over.

172. LogicalLeopard - May 21, 2013

Am I the only person who liked the Khan yell? *L* I thought it was probably more authentic than Kirk’s yell. Kirk is trapped in that cave or bunker or whatever, and Khan taunts him. Is that really enough reason to yell Khan helplessly? On the other hand Spock has obviously been slipping for a long time, his mother died, his planet died, his Captain died (AND he was inside his head when he did), and then ANOTHER Captain dies within, what? A day or two? That’s a good reason to start yelling. Loved Spock going after Khan. Didn’t so much care for the Uhura save at the end.

But as I was just about to type about sending a Security officer down, I just remembered that Spock had given the order to evacuate, and besides all the death, they were probably short of crew and couldn’t have tracked one down quicker than Uhura volunteering. So, I take that back, it makes a bit more sense to me now. And the only other person on that bridge (as I recall) who was known to have combat training was Sulu, and he had his hands full (and maybe even was in command, not sure). And as they really didn’t need a comm officer, it makes even more sense.

173. LogicalLeopard - May 21, 2013

171. mynameschris – May 21, 2013

As for why Khan tried to obliterate Starfleet, its his MO, he took the Enterprise and threatened to kill the crew to get what he wanted. As for any motivation to do what he did, till Kirk showed up he thought his crew was dead, we heard that from him. His entire motivation up until then was to get revenge on Starfleet by starting a war and didnt seem bothered if he died in the process. Just because he got his crew back doesnt mean he would simply Warp off and find a new world to take over.

***************************

I think there are even more levels to that. Revenge is one thing, but it also could be working towards a goal of universal domination. Remember the augments from DS9 who were plotting out how the Dominion war would end? Down to casualty numbers? How hard would it be for Khan to do the same thing, since he’s got access to Section 31 reports on the universe. He could have played nice with Admiral Marcus until the time was right, perhaps advising him poorly (“The time to strike against the Klingons is now!”), giving him false projections, all to work in his hand. Marcus figures out that Khan is doublecrossing him, or cuts him off before the double cross.

174. Marie - May 21, 2013

167

Interesting how different areas respond to different things. I saw the movie Friday and again yesterday in two different theaters in the Chicago/Milwaukee area. Friday did not have many people in the audience, but yesterday did. In an early afternoon theater, more than half full, there was not a sound when Harrison announced himself as Khan, nor when Spock yelled the name. In fact, at the latter the silence was overwhelming as people seemed so involved by the scene.

With a few nits, I enjoyed the movie very much.

175. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

I think that a lot of people miss the point. Orci and Kurtzman made it clear that the “new” Trek is a Quantum Reality where things that happened in the Prime Universe would happen in this one albeit in new ways and that there would also be things that happen that did not happen in the original universe i.e. The Destruction of Vulcan which destablizes the region scares Marcus and motivates his actions. Their five year mission includes Carol Marcus who in the original timeline was not in Starfleet. Her father may have been but she was not in the old timeline. Lots of things can happen. For example:

In this new reality Carol and Kirk may have a daughter instead of a son.

Praxis blows thirty years ahead of schedule. Oh wait thats in the movie.

Maybe the Federation and the Klingon Empire will never find peace.

Maybe the Picards never made it to the Martian Colonies.

Uhura and Spock may get married.

Maybe the Borg Invasion happens a lot sooner.

The Tholians make peace with the Federation.

Maybe the Enterprise C never defends that outpost at Nerandra III

Marla McGivers may have been a history teacher and not a Starfleet Officer.

The Romulans and Klingons dont become allies and share technology.

There is no Babel Conference.

The act of destroying Vulcan alone changes a lot of history. They meet Khan albeit in ways that did not encounter him in the orginial. I dont see the problem.

Its a Damn if you do, and Damn if you dont reality with anyone who writes a beloved Superhero or Sci Fi franchise. If Khan had not been in it people would have complained about how they didnt use anything from the original series and now that they have, you people are still moaning. When there was no Trek, we moaned about how much we missed it and the moment you get Trek back you still moan and whine. Make up your bloody minds already!

Once you get it in your mind that this is a Quantum Reality and that things changed because of Neros incursion, you can understand why they did what they did. Neros incursion into the past broke the timeline and changed that reality. I don’t think it was a retread. It was an enhancement. I am not sure Leonard Nimoy needed to he there. I am mixed about that one. I wanted to see this movie stand apart from the original Trek.

A lot of people complaining were not paying attention to the first film. They were obviously so busy looking for fault with their Roddenberry Trek checker that they did not see the beauty and genuis of this movie. Just my opinion.

176. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 21, 2013

If you’ve got the stomach for it, AND you have already seen the movie, then you might like to read this:

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

I laughed so much I had tears streaming down my face and nearly had an asthma attack.

It’s all so true! …and yet I still enjoyed the movie ;-)

177. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

If you watch the TNG episode Parallels you will get what they did with this film and this series. I get it and its too bad that the blind hatred of fanboys cant allow them to chill for a moment and see the obvious.

You Trek fans will never be satisfied. I believe that a lot of the mistakes from past films were becuase of the Trek fanbase. A lot of this stuff is nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

178. Yanks - May 21, 2013

@ 79. Hat Rick – May 20, 2013

I agree. This movie spoke volumes about current events and consequences.

But they hung all that out to dry with the ending/rip-off.

179. Janice - May 21, 2013

I saw the movie and I’m heartbroken over Pike’s death. Those scenes were gut-wrenching and it’s all the worse because now Pike is dead and there’s no hope that he will be in any future ST movies.

I did love the Pike-Kirk relationship. They had such a great father-son vibe . Yes, Pike chewed Kirk out and with good reason but he also fought to make sure Kirk got a second chance. Pike had that much belief in him!! He even called Kirk “son” in the bar scene and told him everything would be alright. Minutes later Pike was dead. Just awful!

Pike was such a wonderful character and superbly played by the amazing and ever reliable Bruce Greenwood. What a loss.

I was pleased with the way the credits played out. JJ Abrams did the cast credits the same way as the 2009 movie—in alphabetical order. So Bruce Greenwood was 4th on the screen, after Cho, Cumberbatch and Eve—right where he belonged. Considering the role was small and lasted only 30 min or so, I kind of thought his name would be a notch above “cupcake”. So, his name, 4th on the list and alone on the big screen was nicely done and softened my anger over what they did to Pike.

I’ll dearly miss Admiral and former Captain Pike!

180. Riker001 - May 21, 2013

My overall thought was this movie was well done…however…I think very fast paced and could have used some more character on screen time. It somewhat felt a bit rushed…but good to follow.

I think they did a good job with Kahn…BC was awesome…although as we all know now he’s not the major villain in this move…BUT…he has now been introduced in this timeline…and we now have a Kirk/Kahn back story for this timeline…I hope they bring him back but not in the next movie…maybe not even in the one after that…I say bring Kahn back for the 5-6th movie…if they go that far…

A few things I didn’t like:
1. Spock Prime – So not needed
2. Pike dies – I’m a Bruce Greenwood fan so this is just a personal thing…I really think it was great for the story which is the bottom line.
3. The Vengeance uniforms – Just…no
4. Space battle – I don’t think the Big E even fired off a shot. In addition that went by way too quick and if you blinked you would have missed it.
5. Jupiter and Battle over Earth – Was the rest of Starfleet off that day? ;-P
6. Kirk/Spock/McCoy – We need to see how all this comes together as we know them…perhaps in the next movie.

181. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

176 – heh, true, but you could do a similar thing to just about any movie, especially star trek movies.

“So they call up Reliant Command’s prefix number”

“I bet it’s a really long combination”

“No, it’s only five numbers”

“So basically a kid with an iphone could have hacked into and taken over the Reliant?”

“Yep”

182. Cheesy "Khan Cry" Spock - May 21, 2013

William Shatner should have done a cameo as Kirk after he saved the ship in the radiation room. The radiation exposure would have “aged” him so he turns into William Shatner. Dr. Wallace, er… Marcus…, gives him an adrenaline shot which begins transforming him back into Chris Pine captain Kirk. Meanwhile, the Enterprise is attacked by a fleet of Klingon vessels. As Captain Kirk recovers over a 5 minute, groin twirling montage, Marcus declares that his bodily functions grow stronger. Kirk worries that she can’t take the pounding from the Klingons (the ship, of course). Chris Pine Capt Kirk comes back on the bridge and hails to Organians for help. Starfleet detonates a Corbomite bomb and the Enterprise escapes!

183. RBanks - May 21, 2013

I took my 78 year old mom to see STID yesterday, and it was interesting to hear her opinion of what she just watched. She saw ST09, and really enjoyed it even though she’s not a big fan of science fiction films.

Firstly, she loved STID (as did I). She liked the overall story and plot, and she had no trouble following it or understanding it. She said that even though it was a fast-paced film, she didn’t find it rushed.

She thought Chris Pine had really grown as an actor, and that Kirk, as a character had grown as well by the end of the movie. When asked about Khan, she said he was creepy and twisted, and one of the nastiest villains she’d ever seen.

I asked her if she needed more backstory on Khan, and she said no. She assumed by the name/title Khan, that he was somehow a decendant of Ghengis Khan, and everyone knows that Ghengis Khan was a particularly brutal historic figure, therefore Khan Noonien Singh would be too. No more explanation needed.

Her final comments, were the best. She didn’t want the movie to end, and she wants to see where they go next on the 5 year mission. Then she asked me how long it would be before the next Star Trek film is made. I told her at least a couple of years, to which she replied- “I think it should be made sooner than that!”. She liked ST09, and she loved STID.

Anyway, it was a thoroughly enjoyable film made even more enjoyable by seeing mom’s reactions to it.

184. Aqua - May 21, 2013

Anthony, you did a poll on what did this movie need more of, what about a poll on what it could have done with less of.

185. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 21, 2013

@181. Josh C.

Oh, yes – I agree. I’ve seen STID 6 times so far, so I’m certainly not intending to knock it.

In fact I watched the Honest Trailers and Cinema Sins that Anthony posted for ST09, and thought they were a scream. Then I went and looked at the same sort of thing for other movies I’d seen, eg Avatar, and some of the Harry Potter movies, and laughed at them too.

I love Star Trek in all its incarnations – some incarnations more than others (Nemesis and ST:TFF still stick in my craw to an extent) – but it’s stilll all Star Trek to me. However, that won’t stop me picking an episode or movie to pieces as I watch it in the privacy of my own home.

186. govna - May 21, 2013

While so many of us are criticizing Spock’s “Khan” yell…(which i didnt mind so much)…let’s not forget that Kirk’s (shatner’s) “Khan” yell from TWOK is famous, probably, for all the wrong reasons. Because Shatner is chewing the scenery like no other! Because it’s so ridiculously over the top! Because it’s kinda cheesy!

Also, when you think about Shatner’s “Khan” yell within the context of TWOK’s narrative…it makes no sense. Kirk and crew were not trapped on that lifeless body. In fact, Kirk had a secret escape plan. So, Kirk yelling “Khaaaaaaan!” is only there for the sake of the audience at that moment. To experience the drama and direness of being “Marooned for all eternity at the center of a dead planet. Buried alive!”

Just a few minutes later, we discover that Kirk had a trick up his sleeve all along and the crew is not stranded. So, as i said, it’s either there for the audience to feel trapped or the character of Kirk knows what he is doing and it’s all part of Kirk’s clever ruse.

Either way…Kirk’s yell is not a true emotion. It’s not a true expression from Kirk. Its a put on. To either convince the audience or to convince Khan. Or both, of course.

i guess then it could be argued the Spock’s “Khan” yell in STID is more honest…more true…more important…than Kirk’s original yell. If we take off our rose tinted glasses…we’ll see that Kirk’s yell is cheesey and groan-inducing …more so than people are accusing Spock’s yell of being.

187. Steve-o - May 21, 2013

I was pleased that there was more of an exhibition of the
treknology”. one of my biggest problems with the last film was that we saw actors looking at displays and using gadgets, but there was no close up for the audience to admire any of it!!
I had been very curious to see how the design was influenced previous designs, so i was rather bummed that best look i got of anything was from looking at playmates toys
in ST:ITD. we see carol marcus scanning with a tricorder, Kirk snapping phasers together, and plenty of displays showing us what is happening. Whahoooooo! :)

my only complaint is I was looking for a completely original story. I may have laughed out loud when Spock screamed “Kahn” sorry guys lol

188. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@122. William Bradley,
“It would have been good to have women and more people of color at that Starfleet war council in San Francisco attacked by Ret-Khan. But as for the main cast, the characters were established a long time ago. And we don’t have the diversity we see in other Trek shows”

Forget the “war council” … Just because there were 5 essentially white characters at the core of the TOS 7 principles doesn’t mean they can’t redress it in the new films. I mean, they re-cast Khan as white and British (so much for the characters being “established”).

What I find interesting about the casting of Khan is that they apparently looked at every Latino actor on the planet, then cast a white guy. My question is, did they ever look at any Indian, Asian, or Black actors too? Because if they didn’t, it certainly raises some interesting questions. However innapropriate they had a defense going Latino. But once they go outside that conceit, it really doesn’t matter what color Khan is. The question is did they look?

Pike for instance could have been re-cast as black (though i get why they didnt as the fans would have howled and the re-boot was risky enough), but it would have been a good opportunity for meaningful diversity. So what about Admiral Marcus in this film? Why did he have to be Carol’s father? That automatically made him white. Or did it? Why not make Carol Latina? Or Asian? That’s a reasonable cheat based on the original casting, especially considering the choice they made with Khan. And then there’s new recurring characters like “Cupcake”. Why not make him black or Latino to begin with? Perfect opportunity not only to have a red shirt, but also a black character put in harm’s way no less that doesn’t stereotypically get killed off in every horror or action film.

I guess we can at least be thankful that they have introduced at least one other lead female at all, despite doing little more than appearing in her underwear and shrieking in horrific situations. And I guess we should be thankful for Capt. Robau and Noel Clarke’s character, but it seems so much easier to cast minor supporting roles with token minorities than actually commit to a balanced representation of race in the principal cast as it exists in the US today, much less the rest of the world.

Considering the message of Trek, and Paramount’s desire for greater foreign revenue, these casting decisions are quite ironic.

189. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@boborci

was there any discussion about having some extra exposition involving Kirk and Spock looking up Khan on the ship’s computers and kinda explaining him as a person and why he’s so dangerous [ala Space Seed]? i felt that once his reveal came, there was nothing to back it up, nothing about the Eugenics Wars, or why he was floating in space. sure, we had the [rather contrived] scene with Spock Prime, but that was it, really. i dunno, i guess i just felt that little extra was needed to really hit home Marcus’ mistake in reviving him.

190. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

186. govna

Kirk must not have been sure if Khan was monitoring him in the cave of Genesis moon at that moment.

That’s why he really had to sell that moment.

K-H-A-A-A-N-N-N!!!!!

191. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

189. Doug Skywalker

Don’t you get it?

It was NOT about our beloved Khan madman from Star Trek.

It was about today’s Khan’s in real life. That’s why Cumberpatch played him.

It could have been anyone in that role.

And that’s why this was not a Star Trek movie.

It was more like, “here’s some mud in your eye, you stupid people.

192. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

188. Curious Cadet

I guess you don’t get it either.

Cumberpatch was a white guy. You can’t argue with that can you, Trekkies? But also , you just can’t accept it either. It’s too in your face. Sound familiar. IT SHOULD!!!

Get it now? White guy = Terrorist? Duh?

193. dmduncan - May 21, 2013

On the matter of Carol Marcus’ sexy body briefly on the screen, it’s kind of difficult for me to see the complaint.

She’s not just ANY woman, she’s THE woman who bore Kirk’s offspring in the prime universe, and in that scene she holds her pose letting Kirk get his look and then leads him to turn back around like a puppy on a leash.

And that looks like a moment of chemistry to me. I might agree had she gotten mad at him and tried to cover herself, but he liked what he saw and she appeared comfortable with him liking what he saw, so for me that moment was a moment when a bigger spark jumped the gap between them.

Didn’t think it was gratuitous. Kirk grows more mature in this movie, but he’s still not quite “there” yet, and the one or two angles of Carol that scene consisted of was not unreasonable given who they are and their relationship to each other in the prime universe.

So I think it’s not quite right to view Kirk as representing ALL men and Marcus as representing ALL women. If anything, I think Kirk represents *hetero-male* and Marcus represents *hetero-female* and together they represent the interlocked male-female, self-sustaining and eternally recurring force-of-life. Yin and Yang.

194. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

I don’t know if anyone noticed, but despite earlier reports, the soundtrack appears to have been released. I just bought it and downloaded it from iTunes

195. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

in general, i found STID to be awesome, and with each viewing, i love it more and more, picking up on the subtleties that make it awesome and a terrific entry into the Trek universe [or alternate universe, depending on how you look at it].

i understand the haters out there, we all judge films and that which we love differently. I just hope that the next installment can take all that which was awesome in both ST09 and STID and be totally amazing and a Trek film we can all agree is just awesomesauce.

196. EM - May 21, 2013

This was a wonderful Star Trek movie!

I keep seeing sourgrapes from people like TrekMadeMeWonder Move on! Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons doesn’t complain that much about silly little things.

Cumberbatchs’ performance in this movie is incredible. He made Khan an intensely believable character as opposed to the larger than life caricature that he was. Don’t get me wrong, I loved Mr. Montalbans performances in “Space Seed” and “The Wrath of Khan”.

And, what a treat it was to see Mr. Nimoy one more time as Spock! I couldn’t help but grin from ear to ear when he showed up!

And the Klingons were very cool! More Klingons!

197. Wannabe Writer - May 21, 2013

Everyone seems to be comparing STID with TWOK…they shouldn’t. TWOK happened as a result of what took place on Space Seed. This movie is a retelling of Space seed, not TWOK. How did Kirk and Khan meet? What happened then?

Everything is different now. Yet…there is still a thread of connection as there always is between realities. We see this all the time with the mirror universe. Same people, different lives, different events that shaped them.

Khan in Space Seed acted different because of the situation. They were in space and be wanted Kirks ship to continue his reign. In STID Khan was after revenge. Different circumstances.

STID ended as it should have – with a tie to the original in the fact tha Khan will be around to fight another day.

Carol, Kirk, Spock….they all learned what family really is.

The story should be looked at by itself without comparison since there really is nothing to compare it to.

It was a great film. It was great Trek.

198. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@164 Josh C.,
“Sure, there is enough of an opening to do that. One could also do a story where someone comes in an explains that Kirk is actually a Dominion changling spy too, probably.”

Your ludicrous hyperbole is obviously not the same thing at all.

The fact that Orci acknowledges Harrison might have lied about being Khan, much less responded to it at all, tells me this is a perfectly valid way to see Khan’s identity.

See #23 and #26 in this thread — http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/17/sticky-into-darkness-open-weekend-thread/

The fact you wouldn’t personally like it doesn’t mean it’s not a valid storyline.. Harrison is still Harrison whether he calls himself “Khan” or “Schmuko”, the general audience doesn’t care … In fact I would argue the “Khan” reveal is lost on everyone but the fans, for whom it is mostly pointless as well. Telling a future audience he lied about being Khan doesn’t undercut STID in any way at all, because as Orci also admits, Harrison could be ANYONE and the story still works. However, “Khan” actually becomes important when we find out Harrison really isn’t Khan, then there’s actually REASON to care who this Khan is — why would he lie, what’s so important about this Khan? Let’s find out …

199. J - May 21, 2013

Needs more CONSISTENCY

200. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@192 TrekMadeMeWonder

oh, i got that, however in context of the character itself and why he’s a threat, rather than who was playing him, tho i think BC did awesome with what he was given.

and terms of it being ‘mud in our eyes’, with respect, i find that what boborci said about destiny and that some people are just destined to meet works for the film and how in this instance, Starfleet found Khan, used him, and created a threat for them rather than Kirk finding him, nearly dying, and then dumping him off on Ceti Alpha V setting up TWOK.

IMO, that’s the trap set forth by a reboot. we wonder what TOS things we’ll get to see, but then freak out in a way if it’s not quite what we expect.

yes, i was kinda let down they brought in Khan, but he’s to Kirk what Joker is to Batman. if done right, it’s awesome, and in this case i think is was awesome. Khan is still a madman, his circumstances and motivations were slightly changed.

and now that he’s out of the way, perhaps we can get some other TOS re-imagined, like Garth or Dr. Corby or Doomsday Machine or Operation Annihilate or Day of the Dove or even the Cage!

i have total faith in the Trek Grand Jury, and so far i’m enjoying the Trek they’ve brought us, beats Berman and Co. any day.

201. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@197. Wannabe Writer

Totally agree!

202. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@142. Disinvited,
“that doesn’t answer the question of why Khan felt the ruse required actual functional photon torpedo warheads?”

I don’t recall, is there anything in the film that precludes Marcus restoring functionality to them after intercepting them, so that they will be completely destroyed when used? Or making them functional after the pods were removed?

203. Matt Wright - May 21, 2013

@ 200 – Oh we’ll never get “The Cage”, remember it was deemed too cerebral even back in the ’60s ;-)

204. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@203. Matt Wright

cerebral you say? hardly! haha

i think The Cage is a perfect contender for a Trek re-imagining. challenge audiences and show people why Trek is awesome!

205. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

197. Wannabe Writer

You must be misreading my comments. Never said I did not like the movie. It was very entertaining, It just wasn’t my idea of a good Star Trek.

I find it funny how so many can just ignore that CumberKhan was not what any of us would expect from a Khan villain.

In fact, thinking about it more its kind of like Trek’s version of cognitive dissonance.

FACE IT you Wannabe Writer. You had the wool pulled over your eyes Hollyweird and you just can’t understand why your beloved Trek is so different, but like so many others you will sit right down and drink the Kool-Aid that your friendly Paramount made for you.

Still don’t/can’t/won’t believe me? Then go see Iron-Man III. There again, a white guy masquerading as a spooky Asian terrorist.

Face it all you ‘Wanna’bes’, Paramount has other concerns that are apparently above the interests of those who enjoy a good Star Trek.

Face it.

206. David Oakes - May 21, 2013

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2013/041/c/1/concept___ar_excelsior_by_jetfreak74656-d2e3rby.png

IF USS Excelsior was in the JJ Abrams Universe.

207. Matt Wright - May 21, 2013

@ 204 — Oh I agree, but considering the more summer blockbuster popcorn flick nature of the way any nearly all big budget movies are made now, it won’t happen.

I actually kind of wish they’d move Trek back to being a November release franchise, it might be more fitting for the competition and the chance to do something that might push the boundaries more.

208. gavabot - May 21, 2013

I think this article does a great job of summing up what this film didn’t do right…

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

Basically when you make a movie, you need to create a world with specific rules or logic (which star trek has plenty of), and stick to them. I feel like this movie did everything it could to break those rules to create a sense of action/drama.

Obviously, this is the conceit of the medium, in that it’s always a manipulation. I just think in this film they went too far, and while my initial reaction of the film was that it was great, the more I thought about it, it didn’t feel as cohesive as the 2009 movie. (Which I loved.)

Just my 2 cents…

209. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@160. Captain Jake Sisko,
“I am pretty sure Marcus was thorough.”

Because that’s ever indicated in the film? Marcus seems pretty unhinged and plays pretty fast and loose in this film, starting with giving this so-called superior intellect free run of starfleet. I’m not sure he had the presence of mind to do a thorough background check when presented with what appears to be obvious.

———————–
“In Star Trek lore they have had the technology from the Original Series to TNG to change the physical appearance of a person down to the DNA sequence. Marcus decided to conceal and alter his appearance.”

Wouldn’t changing Khan’s DNA sort of defeat the purpose? Either way, while I get facial reconstruction, why would they feel the need to change his ethnicity and give him a British accent as well? Because people are going to assume any Northern Indian might be a 300 year old ‘superman’ who once ruled 1/4 of the Earth?

————————
“The irony of all the arguments over his ethnicity is that Ricardo Montalban was Mexican. He was not the same ethnicity as the character. I hate the nitpicking I hate the denial. Its foolishness and its childish the reactions I had read. Its pathetic. In the new Superman film Perry White is African-American. Jimmy Olsen is a woman and the New Human Torch in the Fantastic Four film may be African-American. In this case, given the nature of the story I had no problem with Cumberbatch.”

I’m thrilled that Marvel and DC are both attempting to redress the racial and sexual inequalities of their past. And make no mistake that’s what these casting decisions are about. But that’s translating a comic to the big screen, and more importantly it’s in the context of a particular film series. What STID is doing is the equivalent of recasting Perry White as black between the ’78 Superman and its 1980 sequel. Khan is supposed to look like the same character Montalban established, regardless of what ethnicity he should have been in the 1960s when its a minor miracle the networks allowed a Mexican to be cast at all. And in that sense, it’s the exact opposite of what they are doing with the Marvel and DC characters — they’ve taken an opportunity to put a non-white actor in a major role, and instead gone with the original Hollywood decision of casting a white guy.

210. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@205 TrekMadeMeWonder

respectfully, i think that’s a little unfair to say we had the wool pulled over our eyes and that Paramount doesn’t care about those who enjoy good Star Trek.

we as fans are few, compared to the general audience which is many. there needs to be that accessibility to all, not just to only please us as fans. much criticism of the past Trek films was that they were tailored to us as a small demographic, which is nice in a way, but then there’s no revenue to give us the fantastic works delivered [production values!].

i’m sure those running the show care a great deal about respecting the source material and delivering works that even us Trekkers can enjoy, but again, there’s also need to be a way to bring in new viewers too without making them feel like they don’t belong.

Star Trek was originally made for everyone but became something for a few. i think it’s time it’s shared again.

and also, i speak for myself when i say that CumberKhan was exactly what Khan could be: Intelligent, cunning, and driven to kill to meet his goals. Yeah, Montalban is the pinnacle Khan, but most of that character stemmed from his portrayal. i can get into how STID’s Khan had a different experience which may have changed his character a tad in comparison to being awoken by Kirk, but that would just be splitting hairs at this point.

211. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#49
“If the Supreme Court thought fan reaction was too negative about Khan they can still fix it in the 2016 installment. Cumby was a Khan Lieutenant, & Javier Bardem plays the Real Khan.”

You are really hilarious. On the site, where usually gather hardcore Trek fans, there are 67% of 3000+ fans voting that Cumberbatch_Khan is a great villain, 23% voted OK villain, which means that only 10% don’t like his interpretation, were you saying that they should create a REAL Khan for 10% “TOO NEGATIVE” fan reaction??

That being said, I’d rather Cumberbatch doesn’t reprise the role in the future films; with the current writing team, I don’t think they can do justice to the character, and it’s already very obvious that Cumberbatch was totally wasted in STID.

212. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

…changed his character a tad.

Seriously, Doug SKYWALKER?

I guess it doesn’t bother you that it may be the Chinese government telling us Trekkies what Kirk and company should say and do if there is another Trek movie, or does it?

It dithered me about Iron-Man III.

Simple question. An direct ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer would be appreciated.

213. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

typo… Should say… “It bothered me about Iron-Man III.”

214. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@212 TrekMadeMeWonder

Yes.

having said that, i seriously think that’s a bit of a reach that China tells Hollywood how Trek should be made. Iron Man 3 i can see being or more concern as the Mandarin was a racist character in his inception.

and i simply meant that Khan in STID had been awake for 1 year, being jerked around by Marcus and Starfleet has that different experience rather than Khan being awoken by Kirk and in one day tries to steal his ship and murder him, thus being dumped off on Ceti Alpha V.

that’s just how i’m interpreting it, love the discussion!

215. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@193. dmduncan,
“She’s not just ANY woman, she’s THE woman who bore Kirk’s offspring in the prime universe”

If Abrams were making this movie mainly for the fans, I’d say ‘fair enough’.

But the general audiences won’t know anything about this. That leaves the question of how most people will interpret the scene, particularly given the context of the rest of her exposure in the film which are fairly limited. And most will get only the lecherous POV of the male gaze.

What happened to flirting over a milkshake at the malt shop? ;-)

216. Clinton - May 21, 2013

I would have liked more aliens in the movie. I saw a few background characters, as well as three or so with upfront screen time. We ned a better sense that this is a federation. You can make the argument that the Earth-based component of Starfleet would be mostly human, but we still need to see more diversity. Not as much as in, say Star Wars, which would be too diverse for an organization that new. But still…

217. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#192 TrekMadeMeWonder
“Cumberpatch was a white guy. You can’t argue with that can you, Trekkies?”

No, no one is arguing that, but the great Montalban was born in Mexico and his parents are Spanish, so he is a WHITE Mexican. I don’t think anyone is arguing that either? BTW, Sikh is a religion, not a region.

218. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

And just how did Marcus handle Khan better than Kirk and company ever did?

And why the hell did CumberKhan put his people into Starfleet’s most advanced torpedos without anyone else ever finding out?

A childish and laughable idea. One that should have been shown onscreen for us to believe and understand.

To me it looks like the script was hashed out at a backyard bar-b-que at JJ’s castle.

219. Doug Skywalker - May 21, 2013

@218. TrekMadeMeWonder

it was indicated he had a plan to smuggle the torpedoes out as well ,but he was discovered, and Marcus didn’t bother to rectify that, thus continuing to use Khan’s people against him.

220. borgmatrix - May 21, 2013

@boborci

Enjoyed the movie a lot. Seen it twice, and hope to make it back out to the theater at least once more.

A lot of thoughts/questions, but here’s one:

Kirk was determined early in the movie to hunt down Harrison, and I think Spock characterized Kirk’s intentions/plan as “amoral”. Where would you say that puts Spock at the end when, after Kirk’s death, he heads after Khan with seemingly murderous intent? I’ve seen some criticize that as potentially destroying Spock’s character, or at least taking him from a beautiful moment of realization (of friendship as Kirk dies), to intent to kill right after. Kirk had an arc and arrived at a better place by the end of the movie, looking at his words at the end. What about Spock, though?

I’m not of the mindset that there’s anything very problematic here. I liked seeing Spock go from sadness/grief, to building rage as he screamed “Khan!!”, and watching that propel him (and the movie) into the action climax. But I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the above and what some have criticized.

221. Gary 8.5 - May 21, 2013

I wouldnt get too excited about what the novelization says, they are often unrealible .

222. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@186. govna,
“when you think about Shatner’s “Khan” yell within the context of TWOK’s narrative…it makes no sense. Kirk and crew were not trapped on that lifeless body. In fact, Kirk had a secret escape plan.”

I’ve been seeing this complaint/defense a lot about this …

But saying that really diminishes everything that has come before and completely misses the point. Kirk is not yelling Khan’s name because they are seemingly trapped. Prior to that moment, Khan is responsible for the murder of the Reliant crew, murder of the scientists on Regular 1, crippling the Enterprise, the death of Scotty’s nephew and many of his crew, the death of Capt. Terrell and his victim Jedda — and for all Kirk knows his friend Chekov, and has stolen Genesis, perhaps the most deadly ‘weapon’ in the galaxy until red matter, and that doesn’t even take into account opening old wounds of trying to kill Kirk and take over the Enterprise in Space Seed. Yes Kirk knows he is not marooned on the planet, but saying his cry of “KHAAAAAN!” was merely a contrivance to trick the audience trivializes all the death and destruction that has come before. And it suggests to me that you need to go back and watch TWOK again because you clearly didn’t understand that moment.

223. Harrison is Mitchell (a joke) - May 21, 2013

@133 Anybody that read my post and thot I was being serious is an idiot.

BTW, I don’t really subscribe to the Atlanta definition of racist. I just think its so stupid it makes a good joke.

224. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

217. EllenC

What’s your point Khan was supposed to be Sikh, right?

Can’t we just tell a simple story anymore? Does it have to involve today’s most “miserable” headlines? If you noticed, the closing credits had a note about terrorists and post 911 veterans.

Look at this Quote…

“‘Star Trek’ has always been great because it mirrored what was happening,” Orci said in the Wall Street Journal. “…The world that we happen to currently live in involves issues of terrorism and of war and of sovereignty.”

Terrorism, War and Sovereignty.

Sovereignty being the most important to note since we seem to be losing a chunk of it each year to these Terrorists. Terrorists, whom, as Orci has previously noted, are not who you think they are.

This white guy – Khan, or the white guy – Mandarin. Villians or puppets?

Who is the white guy behind the scenes? Who does Marcus represent?
Does Starfleet even answer to a democratic government?

If this is a political movie, why is there no head of State shown (at least briefly) answering or presiding over the response?

Oh, I get it. IT’S THE UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS.

Does JJ and co. really mean to depict a military dictatorship as a dominant future government? There were no efforts to show a democratic leader at all. There should have been.

Who exactly is the chief Executive on Earth in 2259?

And PLEASE, don’t say it’s Medea!

225. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

They should have taken the first 20 minutes of the movie, the Nibiru mission, and made THAT the movie. I’m not a big fan of JJ’s AU Trek but that just might have been the best realization on screen of TOS. The TV version not the movies.

John Harrison (sorry, he isn’t Khan to me) was brilliantly portrayed but we didn’t need another bad guy seeking revenge in back-to-back movies.

And from Nimoy’s cameo on the movie falls apart for me. Just awful. It was like watching the movie version of a bad cover band covering a classic and getting it all wrong.

So can we be done with revenge, bad guys, earth being in direct peril, magic blood and transporters replacing starships? Can we remember that to get from one star system to another, even with warp drive, that it will take a long time? Can we have the crew wear one damned uniform, red shirt, blue shirt, or yellow shirt, for the whole movie instead of multiple unis just so you can sell action figure variants? And can we please leave old episodes and movie plots in the past while we enjoy new ADVENTURES?

Seriously, the Nibiru mission. THAT would have been mind blowingly good.

226. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

Here’s what Marcus really had to say on learning about Khan…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlWSv0NZBRw

You owe me one Bob’O.

227. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

Oh, and an addendum to my last post:

Make Spock more logical and less emotional. And make Uhura his shipmate and not a potenial ponn farr candidate. And let’s get a scene or two of just Kirk, Spock, and McCoy hashing out solutions to the dilemma facing the crew.

228. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

227. THX-1138

You have such simple demands. I get it. I want that as well

it just seems like we are going to have to watch innocent fan productions.

229. Underhill - May 21, 2013

I consider myself a life-long fan and I hold TWOK as one of my favorite sci-fi films. Initially, I saw STID as an attack on that sacred story. But after pondering it some more, I see that this was written by people who also hold TWOK as sacred. It interweaved beautifully with the essence of the original, and in doing so, makes both films that much more meaningful.

Favorite moment: Kirk and Pike at the bar. Just beautiful.

230. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@211. EllenC,
“there are 67% of 3000+ fans voting that Cumberbatch_Khan is a great villain, 23% voted OK villain, which means that only 10% don’t like his interpretation”

You are confusing character and actor, which is clear from you appending “_Khan” to the criteria.

I voted Cumberbatch as a great Villain, because he is, despite the fact I don’t care for the villain being Khan. Given that Bob Orci admits that Harrison could be ANYBODY and was indeed conceived to be another character, I think this is a valid position to take. If Harrison had never said he was Khan, but rather just John Harrison, a genetically enhanced soldier whose family was being held hostage to ensure his loyalty, I doubt seriously Cumberbatch’s performance would have deviated substantially if at all.

231. thomoz - May 21, 2013

@132 BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack

That was funny as hell, you should write dialog for the next two movies! LOL

232. dmduncan - May 21, 2013

18. TrekMadeMeWonder – May 21, 2013

Have only been able to see it once so far, mind you, but I thought Marcus DID find out and planned to use an unwitting James Kirk to neatly dispose of Khan AND his people, at the same time obscuring his (Marcus’) place in the causal chain of events that culminated in the London bombing, while starting a war. It was a way for Marcus to hide his mistakes and illegal activities.

We’ve accepted since TWOK that torpedo casings can be used to house things other than explosive payloads—Spock’s body being the most famous example.

@215:

But on an issue that DOES elucidate or mirror canon you can’t be overly concerned about what “most” people unfamiliar with canon think. They’re just going to have to do their homework if they want to have a deeper understanding of what’s going on, and the deeper meaning of the Marcus-undressed scene is, if not a moment of ignition between Kirk and Marcus, at least where fuel is entering the combustion chamber.

233. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@225. THX-1138,
“Seriously, the Nibiru mission. THAT would have been mind blowingly good.”

For an episode of the TV series, maybe. “mind blowingly”? Doubtful.

Lets imagine how this episode would be treated in TNG, oh wait we know how — “Pen Pals”. And then there was that other one with Worf trying to help his brother relocate an entire civilization facing a natural disaster, and I’m sure others …

In TOS, a simple mission to put an ‘ice cube’ in a volcano wouldn’t even cut it. It would likely play out more like “The Apple”. The crew would discover a computer hidden deep within the volcano manipulating the Nibiruans lives, which now threatens to destroy the Enterprise. So they must destroy the volcano in order to ‘save’ the civilization and themselves, which they attempt to do without being discovered.

None of that really strikes me as mind-blowing, but who knows, execution is everything.

234. jerr - May 21, 2013

so one plot holes I have note seen mentioned yet it….. What happened to Kirk’s bio readings. At the beginning of the movie McCoy mad a big deal about the “readings being off” and kept scanning him, but it was never followed up on.
I thought that is where the blood thing was going to come into play but it was used to bring him back to life. I didn’t see where they talked about what Kirk’s health issue was.

235. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

Just a note.

The term Cold Fusion does not equal the ability to cool down a volcano.

Talk about giving a bad perception about today’s cutting edge science.

236. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#233 Curious Cadet

You are thinking inside-the-box. And your examples are odd to me since the movie we got was a riff on TWOK. So how is that different from a movie that “resembles” your episode examples?

Believe it or not the concept offered in TOS’ The Apple was quite fresh at the time of it’s airing. I’m not suggesting that it be copied. I’m suggesting that the writers of the Trek franchise take the bold leap of writing an original science fiction story within the Star Trek framework. There are hundreds, if not thousands of original science fiction stories written every year that are bold and unique and could be adapted. Aventurous, thought provoking, and yes, action filled.

Obviously opinions vary but I don’t know how anyone could be opposed to a Star Trek movie that captures the very essence of the original series as well as the Nibiru mission did. After all, you liked the original series didn’t you?

237. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@205. TrekMadeMeWonder,
“Then go see Iron-Man III. There again, a white guy masquerading as a spooky Asian terrorist.”

Are you taking about Mandarin?

Ben Kingsley may not be Chinese, but he’s far from “white”. Indeed, were he younger (and more menacing) he would be a good candidate to play Khan. The fact is, he is half ethically related to the Gujaratis Indians which have a significant genetic relationship with Western Asians.

Considering Mandarin is only half Chinese (and a descendent of Ghengis Khan — a Mongol) as well as half English, I’d say Kingsley is not a terrible choice.

238. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

Like I said, Curious. GO SEE THE I.M. MOVIE.

But in my defense about Ben’s origin… Ben Kingsley was born in England and is European. But I see your point about his heritage.

But he is not even close to the original Mandarin onscreen, and the plotline, just like STID, shows the Mandarin as a stand-in for slimy military contractor types.

Now. Who is the pest here, Curious? Me for pointing out WHAT IS OBVIOUS and crammed down our throats as Trek and Iron-Man? Or, the Hollyweird types who apparently like mock American moviegoers by playing with the truth for entertainment purposes and tax write-offs.

239. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

I loved it. The whole film was great. The opening mission was very TOS and had traditional Trek values. They saved a civilization that would have been doomed if you followed starfleet regs. Very Kirk. The film had themes of Family and Friendship, something Trek has always done. It had a story that was cemented in the times, and we are a terror ridden society right now, just like the 60′s dealt with Racism and Vietnam issues. The chamber scene, while not original in it’s set up, was original in it’s purpose. It worked.

A white Khan…no problem with that. It’s a character, and if they wanted to go that route I want the best actor to play him. I can fill the pieces in with my imagination, like how Section 31 changed his appearance. Seems logical…although I do wish they would have addressed that. Maybe in a deleted scene.

Ludicrous Speed was not a bad point for me, although it was rather odd and the finale did seem to kinda slap together at times…forgivable since it was still pretty well done.

It’s tough writing these films. Trek fans are going to hate regardless. Most won’t admit it, but back in the day, the TNG series was getting this level of hate from fans. It “was not my Trek”…rings a bell today. Fans hated DS9 while it was on. Fans didn’t watch Enterprise and failed to show up for the horrible Insurrection and Nemesis outings, begged for Trek to return, then hate on Trek because it features action and is light on the “real” physics…emphasis on the quotes part because I’ve not seen anyone on this page show me a working transporter, phaser, or warp drive capable ship…it’s science fiction for a reason (or, Science Fiction Fantasy, what it should be…hate to break it to ya, but Trek was never real “science fiction” to begin with)

Anybody who has the audacity to say “it slaps Gene in the face” or the similar phrase needs to take a time out, get a life and think. Number one, nobody knows what he would like and dislike and should not speak for a dead man. Regadless of what he was like during the original series run and TNG run, we don’t know. All we know is that Gene did not like Trek 2, 3, parts of 4, 5, 6…he made it well known, yet most folks love those. So, think about that before whipping that card out…

Regarding the Carol “shuttle” scene with Kirk…what’s the big deal? It was a Kirk moment. Hell, in his situation, I’m sure I’d not be able to stop looking. Just sayin…besides, I got the impression he didn’t realize what she was doing when he turned around and couldn’t stop looking. Pointless scene, maybe, but nothing offensive. This country needs to grow some skin. The mock “outrage” crap is getting old.

Magic Khan blood didnt seem too far off. IT was never ruled a NO-NO in TOS, and it seemed that both Khan and McCoy had to do a bit more work with it to get the desired results.

I also can see a switcheroo happening in either a Ongoing Comic or even TNG reboot in which you find out that Cumberpatch was not THE Khan, but one of his followers..just seemed implied that he MAY not be THE Khan…only Nimoy Spock called him by his full name, but he didn’t see his face….I could see them saving Cumberpatch for the TNG reboot..he awakens and becomes Picards enemy.

240. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@236. THX-1138,
“You are thinking inside-the-box.”

Fair enough. I’d be curious to know how you think that Nibiru premise could expanded to make for a mind-blowing story.

I’m all for a movie set on an alien planet where the Enterprise is on it’s own and has to deal with whatever it comes across without any help from anyone else (though how that differs from the two Abrams films aside from the planet exploration I’m not sure). I’d love to see Scotty in charge of the Enterprise as he strives to save it from a mysterious power drain while providing support to Kirk and the crew on the surface fighting for their lives.

I just don’t see the potential of Nibiru, given the climax of the story we were actually shown, which I’m sorry, would be a let down for the ending of a Star Trek film for me.

241. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

“crammed down our throats as Trek”

I’d say we had alot of that during the B&B era of Trek as well…stuff crammed down our throats and passed off as Trek….

Instead of hating on Abrams, why don’t you guys go hate on CBS for blocking Bad Robot from bringing Trek TV back…those guys have done far more harm to the product then Bad Robot ever has done…

242. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

198 Curious Cadet –

it’s not ludicrous. Bob Orci is acknowledging exactly what I am – that there is room for someone to come back and be like “well, he’s not Khan because X, Y, Z” *If they wanted to.* He is by no means agreeing or hinting that Khan faked who he was.

You’d realize this if you saw his other comments that basically say that anything is on screen is canon. If someone later decides to do a movie that undoes Into Darkness, that’s their prerogative. Just as it would be to turn Kirk into a dominion changeling agent.

243. William Bradley - May 21, 2013

Well, of course I like many fans think that making Khan Noonien Singh an uber-Englishman is a very bad joke. And it’s backfired.

Ironically, Naveen Andrews from Lost would have made a great Khan. 46 years ago, when Ricardo Montalban was cast, making a Mexican actor a South Asian warlord was progressive casting (also highly credible in the role). Today it’s unnecessary because the acting pool is so much wider.

Naveen Andrews is the son of Indian immigrants to London who plays an ex-elite Iraqi army officer in Lost.

HE would be highly credible as the former ruler of a quarter of the planet from Asia through the Middle East.

Now, I happen to love Benedict Cumberbatch as an actor. He is absolutely brilliant in Sherlock. So long as he is not Khan Noonien Singh, a ludicrous notion, the only complaint I have about him in STID is that we don’t see enough of him.

>188. Curious Cadet – May 21, 2013
@122. William Bradley,
“It would have been good to have women and more people of color at that Starfleet war council in San Francisco attacked by Ret-Khan. But as for the main cast, the characters were established a long time ago. And we don’t have the diversity we see in other Trek shows”

Forget the “war council” … Just because there were 5 essentially white characters at the core of the TOS 7 principles doesn’t mean they can’t redress it in the new films. I mean, they re-cast Khan as white and British (so much for the characters being “established”).

What I find interesting about the casting of Khan is that they apparently looked at every Latino actor on the planet, then cast a white guy. My question is, did they ever look at any Indian, Asian, or Black actors too? Because if they didn’t, it certainly raises some interesting questions. However innapropriate they had a defense going Latino. But once they go outside that conceit, it really doesn’t matter what color Khan is. The question is did they look?

244. Anonymous STID trailer dialogue Poster - May 21, 2013

This summer, witness the explosive sci-fi action-adventure by acclaimed director J.J. Abrams.

Earth will fall!

… An estimated 250 people will die …

Earth will fall!

Two buildings, both of them military installations, will be heavily damaged.

Earth will fall!

245. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

239. Robman007

It looked like cartoonville when they used the Chief bloodletter poured some of it into Kirk.

Seriously, do you have any idea how bad radiation sickness is?

I doubt very much that magic BC-Khan blood could absorb and remove all the radiation from Kirk. And I am double-sure that a blood transfusion – of any kind – could ever remove someone’s radiation poisoning.

Child-like in its approach.

246. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

@THX-1138

What part of alternate or quantum reality do you or those like you not understand? And what part of Paramount Pictures which controls the rights to the film franchise does not want a heartfelt film about probes whales or aliens discovering their humanity do you not understand? If you people think in the age of superhero movies that Paramount is going to do a exploration film, you are insane and naïve.

You accuse them of rehashing WOK but a film about the crew saving a bunch of natives and teaching them about humanity is a real problem in 2013. Its nonsense to think a film like that would work. With the exploration there will be large aliens, space battles, and ground wars. No one wants a light hearted feel good romp.

Even if JJ does not come back to direct the 3rd feature if you think that Paramount is not going for bigger and louder in the next installment you are insane.

247. Philip - May 21, 2013

Yeah, all this whining about nu Trek just reinforces my point that humans are NEVER content.

12 years ago they hated the state of Trek, and all this fondness for the past where people forget there were tougher times to deal with for Trek sucking.

Keep the complaining and Bad Robot’s liable to say to hell with you guys. Trek fans truly are their own worst enemy at times, they can never just shut the hell up and stop nitpicking every little detail about how something turns out. We just got 2 really fun films that we certainly NEVER got with the last 2 Next Gen feature films. Insurrection and Nemesis were snooze fests.

Frakes just tweeted yesterday how envious he was about what they got to do with the latest movie, and how big and beautiful it all was. Listen to his director’s commentary on Insurrection and he basically admits he realized the story SUCKED! and had no energy to it.

Thank you Bob Orci and company for giving the non-complaining fans two awesomely entertaining Trek films.

Nuff said.

248. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

So it’s OK for Frakes to complain about the story?

249. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

206 David Oakes – that’s actually pretty cool looking. I’d go for that.

———————————

209 Curious Cadet – so you’re saying Marcus, who can come up with an elaborate plan to start a war with the Klingons, let a 250 year old augment lose in Starfleet without even doing a background check on him? Please.

“why would they feel the need to change his ethnicity and give him a British accent as well”

To be thorough?

———————————

218. TrekMadeMeWonder –

“And just how did Marcus handle Khan better than Kirk and company ever did?”

Probably because Marcus, as a history buff (notice all the ships on his desk?) had realized what he had found long before Kirk did.

“And why the hell did CumberKhan put his people into Starfleet’s most advanced torpedos without anyone else ever finding out?”

If you had actually paid attention to the movie you were watching, you would have discovered that he didn’t do it without being found out.

———————————

234 jerr -

“What happened to Kirk’s bio readings. At the beginning of the movie McCoy mad a big deal about the “readings being off” and kept scanning him, but it was never followed up on.”

My impression was that it was just supposed to mean Kirk was stressed out/whatever and somewhat out of his mind or not thinking clearly

250. Damian - May 21, 2013

I frankly don’t get this us vs. them mentality here. Many who have read my posts here know I love all Star Trek. I saw Star Trek: The Motion Picture on video for the first time in 1986 (remember only because it was a few months before TVH came out). That movie made me a Trekkie and want to see more (I actually had previously seen TWOK and TSFS prior to, but it was TMP that made me a fan–probably why it will be forever my favorite film).

I had some of the same concerns others here had when Abrams and co. came on board. I actually had concerns when The Next Generation started. I thought, how can you have Star Trek without the Kirk, Spock, McCoy and everyone else. The 1st season was admittedly weak, but something kept me coming back. By the end of season 1 (Conspiracy being a highlight), my faith was vindicated. By season 3 they were soaring and I made sure I was there to watch and tape it every week.

Deep Space Nine took a little time, same as TNG, but I got into that too. Loved the Dominion story idea and DS9 took a lot more risks, showing that the Federation wasn’t always a utopia. Voyager, well, I did not watch it through until it was basically over. I did find things to like about Voyager, but it is certainly the weakest of the shows. Enterprise was much better, but it didn’t find it’s footing until season 3 and 4 (4 being what Enterprise really should have been from day 1). I was sad to see it go.

I was there for every opening weekend since TVH. I loved every film, even the much maligned Insurrection (a missed Dominion War story to be sure) and Nemesis (just watched it a few weeks ago and still loved it). The same for Star Trek (2009) and STID. I was gratified to see that the team did take some of our complaints into account for STID. Some of it was little things (like toning down the lens flares) but it matters.

My point to the above is basically, there are those of us who liked the spinoffs and ALL the next generation movies, and still liked Star Trek (2009) and STID. Just because I liked one doesn’t mean I threw the other under the bus.

Gene Roddenberry, Harve Bennett, Rick Berman and JJ Abrams (and the teams that worked with all of them) have kept me entertained for decades now. They have kept Star Trek alive and kicking and thanks to all of them, I have literally hundreds and hundreds of hours and books to read on Star Trek. Through it all I can’t say I’ve ever been bored (though there had been moment’s I’ve cringed here and there—”Threshold” anyone).

All of them have my thanks for some great entertainment.

251. Trek in a Cafe - May 21, 2013

234, Kirk’s health. Yes. What was up with that?

252. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@245…..was Scotty being “fixed” by Nomad after he got sapped to death anyworse? How about “re-educating” Uhura after Nomad mind whiped her? Yeah, because that was not silly in the least. Nooooo…..

Yes, I do realize how bad Radiation Sickness is…but I don’t care in that situation..it’s Star Trek. Spock was a walking plot device in TOS…inner eye-lids, ever changing mental powers, his Katra…I didn’t complain about that and I don’t complain about Magic Khan Blood brining Kirk back.

Besides, in regards to the Radiation poisoning..did you watch First Contact….you know, the movie with the Borg. The 8th in the series. The 2nd in TNG film..the only TNG film not to be snooze fest of crap…Dr Crusher had a nice little hypo spray that annoculated the crew and 21st century citizens and cured the radiation sickness….I’m assume that exists in the 23rd century…so, mix that with rapid cell regenerating DNA from Khan and blamo, insta cure for Kirk was suffering from. There, I whipped up a Technobabble, Sci-fi cure using existing “cannon”..

Blamo.

253. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@ 234..regarding Kirk’s “health”….

…McCoy had a line that solved that one…he was being “McCoy” with Kirk about not getting a med check because he had just been involoved in a firefight and serious incident. McCoy busted on Kirk in TOS for not getting check up and physicals at times, this was another instance of McCoy being Kirk’s doctor and Kirk ignoring him.

254. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@238. TrekMadeMeWonder,
“But he is not even close to the original Mandarin onscreen”

Fair enough, but it’s a completely different issue than Khan. In IM3 Mandarin has been completely reimagined. The complaint is not that they made Mandarin white, but rather they completely changed Mandarin from the comic. It would be like re-imagining Batman’s greatest nemesis as J.O.K.E.R. — a terrorist organization comprised of nefarious agents instead of just one guy. Indeed the villain of IM3 is not Mandarin at all, but rather someone else appropriating that name.

With Khan and STID, the producers are implying that Khan is the same Khan Kirk awakens in Space Seed, merely masquerading as Harrison. However, the character bears no resemblance to the one established in the Prime timeline. Very big difference. More like Iike Perry White being recast with a black actor between the 1978 and 1980 Superman movies.

255. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#240 Curious Cadet

Well, I’m a musician and not a story writer by trade. But if you would like a plot outline for how I, a completely untrained and uncredited writer might have fleshed out the Nibiru sequence just give me some time to puzzle it together and I will do just that. I figure if it compels me it might compel others.

Better yet, maybe someone here with actual writing talent might want to take a stab at it.

I would also like to point out that the last two Abrams movies essentially played out at Starfleet HQ. Earth orbit. The absence of the entire fleet was rather curious since it indeed did leave the Enterprise all alone to deal with the Vengeance and Khan.

But a Prime Directive dilemma could be a starting point for such a movie. Episodes that would not necessarily be copied but have inspiration drawn from would be Devil in the Dark, Miri, Corbomite Maneuver, Shore Leave, Galileo Seven, Arena, Operation: Annihilate!, and that’s just the first season.

Who knows, maybe even a take on Mirror, Mirror could be fun.

But really, my point is that I can live with plot holes. Star Trek abounds with them. I can even sort of live with the AU conceit, as long as we got original Star Trek flavored (apparently to my tastes alone) stories. But the last three Star Trek movies have been basically about bad guys in big black ships seeking revenge. Can we go a different route? And even though I would like to see Star Trek movies that are influenced by TOS, I don’t want to see whole scenes lifted from previous Treks.

256. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@254….I do wish they would have put in a throw away line with Khan mentioning that his appearance was changed. Everyone can recognize one of the most notorious deposts in Earth’s history, so logically he’d need to get some facial reconstruction…really needed that line.

I’m thinking they will do a “Khan” comic kinda like they did with Nero that shows Khan being awakened and doing some covert missions for Section 31…

..I also think they left that open for a return of Cumberpatch and the potential swerve that he was not really Khan, but one of his men…

While I have no complain about the use of the character, I think it would have been good to just say he was John Harrison..a rogue Section 31 operative who was experimented and kinda went insane and power mad at the same time…

257. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@255…the problem is…if you redo a TOS plot, like The Cage, then fans would get upset, even though a majority of the posters here are calling for that..and a majority called for Khan and Klingons after the last film…

Personally, I’d love to see a remake of a sort of A Taste of Armageddon. THAT would be cool…or Errand of Mercy.

258. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@247…Bad Robot has already said to hell with this franchise and it was not the fans fault…all on CBS. They are contracted for one more film it seems and that is all you will get. One more, IF this films makes more bank.

259. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@242. Josh C.,
“If someone later decides to do a movie that undoes Into Darkness, that’s their prerogative. Just as it would be to turn Kirk into a dominion changeling agent.”

And that’s why it’s ludicrous. The point of Star Trek is to tell us the story of Kirk, making Kirk someone else in the context of rebooting the franchise is ridiculous. Making a guest character such as a khan someone else is an intriguing plot line, especially when the identity of Khan is inessential to the plot of STID as admitted by Orci. When Khan could just as easily be ‘Schmuko’, then he could just as easily be anybody else — especially when that identity was essentially wasted in STID.

—————————
@249 Josh C.,
“To be thorough?”

First, if Marcus did a thorough background check on Khan and still gave him the run of Starfleet, then yes, I think he’s even a bigger idiot than I though.

You also assume in this universe the same records Spock had difficulty locating in the Prime universe even still exists, that Nero’s incursion did not somehow affect those incomplete records.

As for the British accent … LOL, yeah as long as he’s changing his ethnicity when there’s absolutely NO NEED to do so … Why not!

260. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#246 Captain Jake Sisko

First off, who are you, again? Secondly, why do you feel the need to be so condescending? I don’t remember calling you names.

Third, and to address your point, have you ever heard of a film called Avatar? It was pretty much the plot you described and made a boat-load of cash. Whether you liked it or not.

261. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

Your responses conflict with each other.

Either Marcus knew about Khan and his crew at the start, or he didn’t.
If he knew at the start then he would have had Cumberpatch’s number and Cumberpatch never would have had that opportunity to conceal his crew in torpedoes.

Still can’t believe I am writing that.

Shameful Trek writers. And I use that term loosely.

262. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#257 Robman

But I’m not suggesting a redo. I was really trying to suggest that the world of science fiction is full of stories that could be compelling and could be adapted to Star Trek. My examples of episodes was merely to lead in a direction and to demonstrate that it has worked before to utilize a different plot device than we have sen in the last three movies.

263. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

Lindelof apologizes for Star Trek Into Darkness underwear scene

If you were wondering why Carol Marcus got down to her skivvies in Into Darkness, turns out you’re not the only one.

By now, even if you haven’t seen Star Trek Into Darkness, you’ve no doubt seen the trailers, and that means you’ve seen actor Alice Eve in her underwear. And you might have wondered to yourself — why? Was there some narrative purpose to her stripping down? Or are we just hoping to put butts in seats by showing off her lovely lady body?

Well that question was put to Damon Lindelof, and his answer … well. See for yourself:

“Why is Alice Eve in her underwear, gratuitously and unnecessarily, without any real effort made as to why in God’s name she would undress in that circumstance? Well there’s a very good answer for that. But I’m not telling you what it is. Because… uh… MYSTERY?”

Now on its own, that is not the worst thing a writer/producer has ever said. But it also turns out that Eve was not the only actor to disrobe for the film — she was just the only one to make it to the final cut. Apparently Benedict Cumberbatch was shirtless at one point, too. What happened? Take it away, Mr. Lindelof!

” As for the shirtless scene… we scripted it, but I don’t think it ever got shot. You know why? Because getting actors to take their clothes off is DEMEANING AND HORRIBLE AND…”

Oh.

Right.

Sorry.

http://www.blastr.com/2013-5-21/lindelof-apologizes-star-trek-darkness-underwear-scene

264. RBanks - May 21, 2013

Alice Eve is a knockout.

I would have peeked too.

265. Damian - May 21, 2013

258–That’s probably the most disappointing thing of all. These guys are likely just to do 3 films. With the success everyone has had, I wouldn’t be surprises if the start bail after a 3rd film too. I enjoyed STID thoroughly, but I thought redoing Khan was unnecessary and a waste of one of their 3 outings.

I would have preferred a wholly original character (as someone else noted, a rogue Section 31 operative). It was sort of a missed opportunity.

I would have loved had they made it the same Harrison we saw once or twice in the original series as a background character. How cool would that have been, to have a character in one universe just be a regular member of the crew in this universe be a mad villain. It certainly would have played to the idea of “another time and place”.

266. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

259 – I’m not saying fans wouldn’t riot if someone did that. I’m pointing out that they CAN do that if they wanted to, which is all you’re pointing out about Khan in Into Darkness.

“Making a guest character such as a khan someone else is an intriguing plot line”

A plot line in what? There IS no “Khan isn’t Khan” plot line.

“especially when the identity of Khan is inessential to the plot of STID as admitted by Orci. When Khan could just as easily be ‘Schmuko’, then he could just as easily be anybody else”

Because Bob Orci is a lazy screenwriter?

“First, if Marcus did a thorough background check on Khan and still gave him the run of Starfleet, then yes, I think he’s even a bigger idiot than I though.”

Duh. I don’t think anyone is denying that. He thought he could control Khan and he got burned (well, head-smashed, technically) over it.

“You also assume in this universe the same records Spock had difficulty locating in the Prime universe even still exists, that Nero’s incursion did not somehow affect those incomplete records.”

I don’t see how those records would have gotten lost. If anything, if someone scanned the Narada’s databanks, they would have gotten ADDITIONAL information, not less.

“As for the British accent … LOL, yeah as long as he’s changing his ethnicity when there’s absolutely NO NEED to do so … Why not!”

Again, lazy filmmaking. But “he got cosmetic surgery, etc.” is just a good of an explanation than “He’s lying about being Khan.”

267. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@263 Ahmed,
“” As for the shirtless scene… we scripted it, but I don’t think it ever got shot. You know why? Because getting actors to take their clothes off is DEMEANING AND HORRIBLE AND…” — Lindelof”

You know what’s ironic about that?

Cumberbatch said in his interviews he and his trainer were actually hoping that scene wasn’t cut (implying it was filmed). He was hoping to show off their hard work, the entire reason he was training to begin with when he could have just worn a padded muscle suit like the other feature film superheroes.

So somebody’s not telling the truth here …

268. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@260…in all honesty, Avatar sucked donkey sack. It was not good. It made a boat load of cash because it was

1. A technological freak show and the catalyst of this new 3D craze. Folks went to see it in droves because it advertised “mind blowing” 3D visuals. The story was nothing special

2. It’s a James Cameron film. His first since Titanic. Folks would have paid top dollar to watch him take a dump in 3D. He makes such few films that folks just flock to his flick. Avatar was his weakest film.

Had Avatar been a Trek adventure and not made by Cameron..it would have bombed and mocked, ala Final Frontier and Insurrection

269. Damian - May 21, 2013

264–With you there. I understand the argument about it being demeaning to women, and she was still perfectly hot with all her clothes on. But yeah, I would have taken a peek too.

Sorry ladies, I have a thing for blondes and she is incredibly hot.

But if it’s any consolation, she was more than just eye candy. She stood up to her dad, an admiral and member (possibly leader) of Section 31. She helped defuse a bomb and she appears to be able to stand on her own.

270. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

@ 267. Curious Cadet – May 21, 2013

“Cumberbatch said in his interviews he and his trainer were actually hoping that scene wasn’t cut (implying it was filmed). He was hoping to show off their hard work, the entire reason he was training to begin with when he could have just worn a padded muscle suit like the other feature film superheroes.

So somebody’s not telling the truth here …”

I will believe Cumberbatch anytime over Lindelof.

271. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#268 Robman

Your argument is speculative. There is no way to prove or disprove your theory. I can offer another example.

Avatar has essentially the same plot as Dances With Wolves. Dances With Wolves made over $484 million dollars world-wide and won six Oscars including Best Picture.

272. Jai - May 21, 2013

Re: #133:

“Spock Prime refers to Benedict Cumberbatch’s character as KHAN NOONIEN SINGH.”

Actually he doesn’t. Spock asks Spock Prime if he ever had any dealings with anyone called Khan (not “Khan Noonien Singh” — just “Khan”). Spock Prime basically replies “Yes” and tells the Enterprise bridge crew about “Khan Noonien Singh”. Spock Prime was referring to Ricardo Montalban’s character, not Benedict Cumberbatch’s character. In that scene and the rest of the movie, neither Spock Prime nor any of the new Enterprise crew are shown to verify that the two characters are the same guy.

John Harrison never even says his full name; he just claims his name is “Khan”, and that’s it.

That scene with Spock and Spock Prime has another related plot hole. In the real world, “Khan” is actually an extremely common surname among South Asians — there are literally tens of millions of people with that surname in the Indian subcontinent (including half of the leading actors in the Bollywood film industry). In fact South Asia probably has the largest number of people in the world with the surname “Khan”.

According to Wikipedia, “Khan” is even the 80th most common surname here in Britain, with more than 80,000 Khans in this country, mainly because of the British South Asian community.

I understand it would disrupt STID’s fast-paced plot narrative if Spock Prime had replied “Young Spock, there are millions of humans with that name, so I’m afraid you’re going to have to be a little more specific”. It’s also understandable that the name “Khan” would have particular resonance for Spock Prime because of what happened in TWOK.

But realistically, it’s like asking someone if they ever had any dealings with anyone called “Smith” and expecting them to know exactly who you’re talking about ;)

273. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

272 – true, but Spock Prime would know that NuSpock wouldn’t call him over just anyone, and with him bringing up Khan, I think it would be obvious who he was talking about.

Now, to Spock and Kirk, they may not have looked up who Khan was, partly because to them it was irrelevant in this movie.

274. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

Point being, Dances with Wolves is not Star Trek, a franchise that is often labeled as boring, slow, talky and its fans often mocked for being nit picky, basement dwelling dweebs who are impossible to please.

Avatar was also a cut and paste re telling of Disney’s Pocahontas anywho…

Avatar made boat loads of cash because it advertised mind blowing IMAX 3D visuals never before seen AND because of its director.

You take Avatars story and put “Star Trek” in the title and the film would make Insurrection numbers and mock laughter…unless James Cameron directed it.

275. The River Temoc - May 21, 2013

@239 wrote: “Trek fans are going to hate regardless…Fans didn’t watch Enterprise and failed to show up for the horrible Insurrection and Nemesis outings, begged for Trek to return, then hate on Trek because it features action.”

This, of course, assumes that the same people “hating” TNG/DS9/Enterprise are the same people who dislike STID. In my case, at least, they’re not.

276. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@272…Actually Spock Prime DOES say Khan Noonian Singh.

“Khan Noonian Singh was the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever encountered. He’s intelligent, cunning and ruthless and will not hesitate to kill every single one of you.”

He was asked about Khan and that was his response.

277. jerr - May 21, 2013

253. Robman007 – May 21, 2013
@ 234..regarding Kirk’s “health”….

“…McCoy had a line that solved that one…he was being “McCoy” with Kirk about not getting a med check because he had just been involoved in a firefight and serious incident. McCoy busted on Kirk in TOS for not getting check up and physicals at times, this was another instance of McCoy being Kirk’s doctor and Kirk ignoring him.”

I suppose, but it didn’t play that way for me

278. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

275….the folks are the ones who hate on the current product, yet love it when it’s in the past, claim to have always loved it and whine and complain to see it come back…

Damnit, I wish this would have been just a reboot. No alternate universe crap

279. dmduncan - May 21, 2013

261. TrekMadeMeWonder – May 21, 2013

Based on my ONE viewing, I’d say that Marcus was behind EVERYTHING. Marcus orchestrated Harrison’s attack on the archives, the meeting, and had Harrison beamed to Qonos. He knew that Harrison would be tracked there and counted on using the torpedoes to get rid of Harrison AND the rest of his people, destroying all evidence of the connection he (Marcus) had to the conspiracy, while at the same time starting a war with the Klingon Empire, which was his objective all along.

Marcus, in other words, was doing a version of what General Lemnitzer proposed in Operation Northwoods.

Google and discuss.

280. The River Temoc - May 21, 2013

@252: “Dr Crusher had a nice little hypo spray that annoculated the crew and 21st century citizens and cured the radiation sickness….I’m assume that exists in the 23rd century…”

This was hyronalin. It made a few appearances in TOS, TNG, and DS9.

281. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@277…yeah, it was wham-bam scene, but McCoy was badgering Kirk about getting his check up due to being involved in a fire fight as well as the added stress due to a personal loss. Nothing hidden. Plain and simple…which was why McCoy, in typical McCoy fashion, did the med eval on the shuttle, which pissed Kirk off

282. Frederick - May 21, 2013

I thought the “sliding hole” thing in the brig glass was a cool concept.

But why was Kirk kicking the warp core thing downward when it needed a sideways push? Seems like he was putting a lot of effort for very little actual leverage by doing that.

And why did one phaser shot bring down Khan on the bridge of the Vengence when Uhura’s shots had little to no effect on the barge?

Just wondering. Liked most of it, but was dissapointed that he was actually Khan after all.

283. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@266 Josh C.
“I don’t see how those records would have gotten lost. If anything, if someone scanned the Narada’s databanks, they would have gotten ADDITIONAL information, not less.”

Again you are making assumptions and speculating. I don’t believe it is said anywhere that anybody scanned the Narada’s databanks. in fact the comics make it clear the Klingons could not access the Narada’s databanks, so I dont see how the Kelvin could, or the Enterprise, to the extent that actually happened, it’s hard to imagine they got everything out of it. And we don’t know what Spock had to do to locate Khan’s information in Space Seed. One would think since they knew the name Khan and had a date reference of 1990s, Khan Noonien Singh would have been the top hit. If Marcus was not as thorough, he might have never found the photograph Prime Spock did, which is really the only thing that positively identifies Khan. Moreover any number of incidents over the 33 years since Nero’s incursion could have destroyed those records. Including Marcus deleting or modifying all information about Khan before discovering that photograph, or the photograph never being scanned into federation records at all since Prime Spock first found it 8 years later in another timeline.

——————————–
“Again, lazy filmmaking. But “he got cosmetic surgery, etc.” is just a good of an explanation than “He’s lying about being Khan.”

Again, you are going out of your way to reject the thesis that Khan might be lying as an explanation, though your rebuttal of my proposal is no more valid than they changed his identity. Mine seems far more interesting to me since it makes for a much more interesting plot twist in a future film. If Harrison is lying about being Khan in a future film, it doesn’t UNDO anything, it enhances STID if anything, because STID wasn’t about Khan. The fact you keep saying this is like saying Star Trek III TSFS undoes TWOK, because they bring Spock back to life.

So we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.

I leave you with this … Why would Orci confirm my thesis at all? There are lots of explanations posited around here to explain and retcon events in both of the Abrams films, and Orci does not comment on all of them, and confirms very few. Admitting Khan could be anyone is pretty major. Admitting there’s nothing in the film that necessitates Harrison being Khan is especially interesting in that context.

284. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@280..bingo. There you go. Mix in with some genetically modified and enhanced DNA and you have an insta-plot device. Worked and fit in with every other time A TOS character died and was brought back to life.

279…that thought had crossed my mind. Perhaps that will be the plot of a Khan comic series…great idea on that

285. William Bradley - May 21, 2013

Actually, it’s on CBS refusing to kill all merchandising featuring the Original Series cast, of which JJ and company don’t get a dime.

And we wonder why Shatner and Abrams don’t hang out together …

>258. Robman007 – May 21, 2013
@247…Bad Robot has already said to hell with this franchise and it was not the fans fault…all on CBS. They are contracted for one more film it seems and that is all you will get. One more, IF this films makes more bank.

286. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#274 Robman

Again, I think you are being speculative and that your argument is conjecture.

I wasn’t suggesting that Avatar be the plot outline of future Trek movies. I was responding to Captain Jake Sisko, who posted to me:

You accuse them of rehashing WOK but a film about the crew saving a bunch of natives and teaching them about humanity is a real problem in 2013. Its nonsense to think a film like that would work. With the exploration there will be large aliens, space battles, and ground wars. No one wants a light hearted feel good romp.

I could have just as easily responded to him by saying that, yes, perhaps a light hearted romp could be accepted by a movie going audience. I could cite Star Trek IV: The One With The Whales as a prime example of just that. Instead I chose the Avatar route. As an example only, not as a template. I would think that good science fiction would be a great starting point for inspiration, not plagiarism.

287. Damian - May 21, 2013

282–I was wondering about Kirk kicking the warp core device myself. It looked like it needed to move the other way from how he was kicking it.

Re: Harrison being “stunned” on the Vengeance. He was faking it to make a surprise attack. Just after he is “stunned” they show him opening his eye a crack to look for his opportunity. It was just a ruse that he was stunned.

288. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

If I am going to pick nits could someone explain to me how the photon torpedoes, whose fuel cells have been replaced with frozen augments could succesfully be fired at John Harrison on Qu’onoS? Don’t they need..umm…fuel? To travel the distance? And make necessary course corrections? I still haven’t heard any explanation of this what I would consider pretty major plot hole. I mean, Marcus’ whole scheme seems based on these torps killing Khan, killing the augments, and starting a war with the Klingons.

289. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

@ 279. dmduncan – May 21, 2013

“261. TrekMadeMeWonder – May 21, 2013

Based on my ONE viewing, I’d say that Marcus was behind EVERYTHING. Marcus orchestrated Harrison’s attack on the archives, the meeting, and had Harrison beamed to Qonos. He knew that Harrison would be tracked there and counted on using the torpedoes to get rid of Harrison AND the rest of his people, destroying all evidence of the connection he (Marcus) had to the conspiracy, while at the same time starting a war with the Klingon Empire, which was his objective all along.

Marcus, in other words, was doing a version of what General Lemnitzer proposed in Operation Northwoods.

Google and discuss.”

That is an interesting idea. I only heard about Operation Northwoods after the Boston bombings when some people were saying it was a “False Flag” operation. I never heard of that term before, so I googled it & came across Operation Northwoods during my search. Clearly some people in the government were willing to go to great length to get their objective, even if that meant attaching their own people!!

I think it is reasonable to think that Marcus & Section 31 will come with a plan like this to start a war with the Klingons. He was using Kirk, a young inexperienced captain, as his tool to achieve that objective without raising suspicion.

And Kirk was actually going to do his bidding, he changed his mind only after Spock talk him out of it.

290. martin - May 21, 2013

@282, @287- I agree. It is entirely plausible that Harrison even heard Kirk tell Scotty to drop him.

However, if Harrison did not fall, Kirk may have very well hit him with a phaser shot on Kill.

Also on earth, Harrison was super jacked up by the fight with Spock. If there is also a super adrenaline, it would have been flowing then. AND is the phaser shot diminished if you are wearing a heavy leather coat?

But for story’s sake it worked that way is the simple answer. And don’t say that even WOK didn’t do things just for the sake of the story. (i.e. – what was so damn problematic about raising shields when the Reliant wasn’t answering a hail? Would Terrell be offended by Kirk doing that? Perhaps he would think “He’s only raising shields because I’m black”

291. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

263. Ahmed

A real Star Trek failure. Have we have learned NOTHING in 50 years?

Duncan.

Did you see my posts at 224 & 226? I think I really laid it out on the line there. Risky. That was not an easy post to type. Know what I mean?

and as for,…

“He (Marcus) knew that Harrison would be tracked there and counted on using the torpedoes to get rid of Harrison.”

Was’nt Scotty saying he could’nt scan the ‘fuel’ on the torpedoes?
Was’nt that BC-Khans crew in its place? Just how would the torpedoes work if they had no fuel.

292. Mel - May 21, 2013

“What did INTO DARKNESS need more of?”

Isn’t it possible to make a multiple choice poll? I would have liked to vote for more than one option.

293. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

283 Curious Cadet -

“Again you are making assumptions and speculating”

You’re trying to argue that Khan is secretly not actually Khan, and you’re accusing ME of “making assumptions and speculating”?

And I wasn’t. Why would records about the Botany Bay be lost because of the Narada? There is evidence from Space Seed that it was something that most people had at least general knowledge about from history lessons. And records about it probably exist both inside and outside of Federation databases. The only reason why they would be “gone” is if someone went to great lengths to remove them, and the only person who might have had incentive to do that was Marcus himself.

“Again, you are going out of your way to reject the thesis that Khan might be lying as an explanation”

And you seem to be trying awful hard to argue that he is lying. It’s not going out of my way to say that someone who says he’s Khan and has no apparent reason to lie about who he is actually is Khan.

How is “he’s lying about being Khan” in any way a better or more supportable theory than “Marcus gave him cosmetic surgery to hide who he was,” especially since it’s clear Marcus was in fact actually trying to hide who he was?

“Mine seems far more interesting to me since it makes for a much more interesting plot twist in a future film.”

How is going back and being like “oh by the way, nevermind about that whole Khan thing in Into Darkness” an “interesting plot twist”? Or at least, how is it more interesting than making Kirk a secret Dominion agent?

“If Harrison is lying about being Khan in a future film, it doesn’t UNDO anything”

Except, you know, pretty much the entire movie.

“it enhances STID if anything, because STID wasn’t about Khan”

How does this even make sense?

“The fact you keep saying this is like saying Star Trek III TSFS undoes TWOK, because they bring Spock back to life”

But in Star Trek III they didn’t go back and pretend that Spock didn’t actually die, which is basically what you would be doing by saying “nevermind, it wasn’t actually Khan.”

“Why would Orci confirm my thesis at all?”

Because he didn’t. All he confirmed is that someone COULD do that, which is no more than what I’m saying.

294. Kevin Browning - May 21, 2013

Now that the characters have been established in the last 2 movies, I hope now that the next film will explore the final frontier. My expectations were met in STID! It had the three things I was looking for: Social Commentary, continuation of the origins story, and instead of killing Khan he was put back into his cryogenic tube and locked up, rather than ending with the death of another villain. (typical star trek movies)

Now that STID raises the bar (hey I’m not mad if you disagree) I want to see the next film to explore the final frontier, raise a moral question, and emphasize science fiction over action.

No more vengeance…No more big ships…the origins story has been told…lets get on with the five year mission.

And keep Michael Giacchino as composer…
.

295. dmduncan - May 21, 2013

291: “Was’nt Scotty saying he could’nt scan the ‘fuel’ on the torpedoes?
Was’nt that BC-Khans crew in its place? Just how would the torpedoes work if they had no fuel.”

Do you recall who DESIGNED those torpedoes?

Harrison/Khan, with stowing his crew in mind, which is not to say that would have been the torpedoes ONLY function. Seriously, folks, Think about it a little bit.

Anyone remember Jurassic Park? How the bad guys were going to smuggle dinosaur DNA OUT of the park in a can of shaving cream?

They screwed the bottom off and it had this little refrigeration unit to slide the DNA vile into, and then they screw the bottom back on, and if anybody got suspicious and decided to test the can it would spew shaving cream like it was JUST a can of shaving cream?

296. Frederick - May 21, 2013

So it was Khan’s plan to have the torpedoes fired at him from the Enterprise while he was on Kronos, with his people in them, and he would revive them there?

And why Kronos? I saw no sign of him working with the Klingons.

That whole thing lost me.

297. Troubled Tribble - May 21, 2013

I am a huge fan since I was a boy. I don’t have uniforms in my closet and don’t speak Klingon. LOL But I still love the franchise. That said these movies are incredible. Anyone that is a fanboy and is nitpicking them for tiny details needs to relax. JJ has made Star Trek relevant and fun again. And BTW more epic than we ever thought was possible. Would you rather sit at home and watch TOS reruns for the rest of your life? Or see Trek restored to its place of glory. With new, young fans and new stories told in a grand style. No brainer people. So sit back and enjoy the ride…

298. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

296 –

no, Khan hid his people in the torpedoes so he could smuggle them out somehow, but he was caught.

Khan assumed Marcus killed his crew, thus why he responded with the terrorist attacks.

Marcus was going to have the Enterprise fire the torpedoes on Kronos because it was an easy way to clean up the entire Botany Bay situation without anyone finding out AND would conveniently lead to war with the Klingons on the side as well

299. jeffman1701 - May 21, 2013

@ trekmademewonder Dude shut the hell up. you have no fricking clue what makes a good trek movie. All you do is complain about everything. My advice stay away from the movies. Moron!!!!!

300. dmduncan - May 21, 2013

@296: No, it was MARCUS’ plan. Just as Khan used family to force the Noel character into doing what he wanted, so was Khan used by Marcus.

301. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

291 – Carol, I believe, said that the fuel compartment had been retrofitted to fit in a small area in the rear.

(and if it’s not that clear in the movie, it’s spelled out explicitly in the novelization).

Basically Khan designed the torpedoes for the purpose of smuggling his crew, and found a way to condense the fuel pod into a tiny package, leaving the rest of the space that would normally be used for fuel to put the pods

302. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

UP YOUR SHAFT, Jeffman1701. And a double-Moron to you!

303. Crusade2267 - May 21, 2013

After sitting with it for a few days, I think I can weigh in now.

In general, I liked the movie. I might have even loved the movie, had it not been for one thing: the blatant rip-off of the end of Wrath of Khan. It seemed to me to be in the same vein as “These Are The Voyages.” That is, the writers intended to give the fans a gift by recalling a beloved earlier piece of Trek. (In Enterprise’s case, it was TNG, here it was Wrath of Khan.) But it backfired, ending up coming off as a ripoff rather than a tribute, plagiarism rather than quotation. It essentially said “We’re trying to tell our own story, but just in case you don’t like our story, let’s steal from one we know you do like.” It came off as cheap and gimmicky, it didn’t fit with the new universe, and it marred everything that had come before in the film.

And up until that point, there was a lot to enjoy in the film:

#1: Captain Pike. Bruce Greenwood is the only actor I think who did a superior job to the original, and his scenes with Kirk are very well done. Good writing, good acting, good Star Trek, which is at it’s core about relationships and people.

#2: Simon Pegg. He totally steals the show. Simon Pegg may not surpass James Doohan as Scotty, but I think he matches him. A wonderful sense of comic timing, and yet you can really see how loyal Scotty is to his family. The scene where he knows he’s about to kill the security guard is also very heartbreaking.

#3: Section 31 and Admiral Marcus. I always love the allegorical episodes of Star Trek, and I thought the emotional core of the last movie was when Prime Spock said that he was emotionally compromised from losing his home. This was exactly how I felt as a New Yorker on 9/11. I was very pleased that they continued the story and the allegory, into the reaction and aftermath. I really felt that the Klingons are meant to stand in for Iraq here, and Marcus is a very effective substitute for Donald Rumsfeld, with the whole “War is inevitable, so lets go start it” thing.

#4: Mickey the Idiot. Noel Clarke did a great job of showing his character’s anguish with only a very few lines of dialogue.

#5: Zachary Quinto is much Spockier now.

#6: Miscellaneous great moments. The look on Chekov’s face when he is told to go put on a Red shirt. Uhura’s line about Klingons and honor and how it looks like it gets through right before the Klingon draws his knife. Spock’s line about giving multiple attitudes simultaneously. The “Mr. Spock” exchange between Spock and Spock. Scotty’s resignation. Captain Sulu. Bones performing Surgery on a Torpedo.

#7: Miscellaneous visual cues. The Phoenix and NX-01 models on the desk. A shot of Praxis (albiet about 40 years too early to be breaking up).

You know, before the movie, my wife, the newer Trekkie said that she was concerned that it looked like just an action movie and she’d hate it. Throughout the first 3/4ths of the movie, she had a grin on her face, and she told me she was worried that she’d have to eat a lot of crow. We both really, genuinely enjoyed the film up until THAT point. The point where they started blatantly stealing, rather than quoting. It was such a big faux pas that when we left the theater, we weren’t happy. We had forgotten all that we enjoyed about the first parts of the movie. We left mad at the writers, and we weren’t the only ones at our theater either.

It could have been a great Star Trek film. It really could have been.

304. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

Unfortunatly, this film is going to get killed in the box office this weekend. It just got destroyed in England by Fast and the Furious 6…

…there is something for ya. It’s not just America that is filled with idiotic, brainless zombies who will go see a dumb flick in droves.

STID, for it’s faults, is nowhere near as dumb as stupid of a film as the Fast and the Furious series, yet it will get crushed in the box office. Just pathetic….

305. Disinvited - May 21, 2013

#254. Curious Cadet – May 21, 2013

Actually, in IM3, the last character to say “I am The Mandarin” was the real Blond Nerd Extremis infused bad guy.

306. Jefferies Tuber - May 21, 2013

“We both really, genuinely enjoyed the film up until THAT point. The point where they started blatantly stealing, rather than quoting. It was such a big faux pas that when we left the theater, we weren’t happy. We had forgotten all that we enjoyed about the first parts of the movie. We left mad at the writers, and we weren’t the only ones at our theater either.”

- Yeah, I was at the 5/15 preview in Century City last week and this reflects precisely the conversations in the lobby. I teared up when Kirk died, because of the one part that was different and Pine’s charisma, but I was totally deflated by Spock’s “Khaaan.”

Some people are referring to this stuff as “fan service.” I’d like to suggest the word ‘fandering’ for fan pandering.

307. Disinvited - May 21, 2013

On Marcus’ fuel less torpedoes: SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!.

i.e. biofuel.

;-)

308. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#230
“You are confusing character and actor, which is clear from you appending “_Khan” to the criteria.”

Cumberbatch IS not a villain, he is the actor who played a villain, whose name on the credit is Khan. Unless Anthony confirmed otherwise, the question is obvious whether Khan, the villain Cumberbatch portrayed is a great/ ok/ bad villain.

“I voted Cumberbatch as a great Villain, because he is, despite the fact I don’t care for the villain being Khan. Given that Bob Orci admits that Harrison could be ANYBODY and was indeed conceived to be another character, I think this is a valid position to take. If Harrison had never said he was Khan, but rather just John Harrison, a genetically enhanced soldier whose family was being held hostage to ensure his loyalty, I doubt seriously Cumberbatch’s performance would have deviated substantially if at all.”

Then I guess you should change your vote. I confess that I voted this villain is a bad villain, because the character Khan is underwritten and underused.

As for whether Khan in STID is the iconic Khan in this franchise, below are the writer’s comments in recent interviews:
Lindelof:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1707650/star-trek-into-darkness-spoiler-special-burning-questions-answered.jhtml?utm=share_twitter
“As for our friend Mr. Harrison (I am still uncomfortable even typing his true identity, so conditioned I have become to not do so), yes — there was a fair amount of back and forth as to whether to take on such an iconic character. But it was never really a “Should we or shouldn’t we?” as much as it was “We really have to do this but if we don’t get it right people are going to kill us.”

I think that character is so iconic — he has such an intense gravity in the Trek universe, we likely would have expended more energy NOT putting him in this movie than the other way around. But more importantly, Josh?

He monologues. He monologues like no one else. Pop in the original Star Trek II and watch the scene where poor Chekov stumbles into the Botany Bay. Seriously. In this day and age, most bad guys just run and jump and do that cool neck-breaking move and get the hell on with it. Outside of a Bond movie, does ANYONE monologue like this guy?

No, Josh. They do not.

And when you can get that monologue to come out of Benedict Cumberbatch’s mouth, does the “writing” even matter? I mean, seriously, I made that guy say “Milk, milk lemonade, and this is where the fudge is made” and it scared the living sh*t out of me.”

Tell me the description of the iconic character in Trek-verse is not the one everybody knows.

Also this:
http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/the-reel-breakdown/check-star-trek-writers-planting-easter-eggs-tribbles-215642312.html
“Bob: The biggest addition was Benedict Cumberbatch. He was so compelling on the set that the other actors brought extra energy and extra attention to their roles. He was a force of nature. In terms of his character, we wanted to make sure that the audience did not need any previous knowledge to understand him. So the big debate was: should he or shouldn’t he be Khan?

Alex: We agreed he can be Khan as long as the audience doesn’t have to know that backstory. Our challenge was to define a story that doesn’t rely on previous knowledge, or love of Khan or “Star Trek 2.” We thought if we can do that, then we can think of using that great character Khan.

Bob: Once we had that standalone story, we wondered: are there details from Khan’s history that fit? We returned to our Easter eggs at the back of the fridge: there were those seventy-two torpedoes that happened to house his crew. If we can use the details of Khan’s backstory given our structure to make the movie more specific and more relevant, then that works.

Alex: We couldn’t use Khan just as a gimmick, as an excuse to get fans into the theaters. Once we developed the story, suddenly the details of Khan’s life became an even better way to tell it. Only when we decided that Khan really does fit here – and the fans know that Khan is to the series what The Joker is to “Batman” – that’s when we decided we earned it.

Bob: And that’s when we went for it. Khan is the ultimate Easter egg.
Alex: No doubt.

Bob: Khan is the Cadbury Easter egg of “Star Trek.” He is the richest, most delicious, ridiculously sweet Easter egg.

Alex: In our humble opinion.”

Do you need more proof which Khan the writers referred to and had been featured in STID?

@ Bob Orci
Ever since the villain’s true identity was revealed, Cumberbatch has been a subject of cyber bullies with name-mocking, looks-mocking, being accused as a racist for taking on this part by haters and social justice warriors, if you chicken out on this fan site and said that the Khan Cumberbatch played in STID is not the iconic character you and the writing team had planned on bringing back, and even diminish Cumberbatch’s efforts and create a NEW KHAN in the future films, the only thing I can say is that if you stand by your words and decision, and remain true to hardcore fans that the villain’s true identity is the iconic character in Trek-verse, although I don’t think the script re Khan in STID is good writing, I still have respect to the writers’ hard work, but chickening out? You betrayed Cumberbatch’s trust and lose my respect as human beings.

309. Disinvited - May 21, 2013

#301. Josh C. – May 21, 2013

I like your that explanation better fleshes out my smugglers explanation but I still don’t get Khan’s logic in “To get my people out of danger, I’m going to put them in an even more dangerous explosive container.”?

I mean we already know from TWOK that, even without an engine, a photon torpedo is capable of safely alighting on a planet’s surface intact. Why didn’t Khan have an override or even a GD prefix code to keep them from exploding when his people are in them?

310. Jeffman1701 - May 21, 2013

@Trekmademewonder. I have forgotten more about Trek than you will ever know. So blow it out your turbo lift.

311. bjdcharlene - May 21, 2013

Esteemed Mr. Orci et al
Agree with Joe at #9 for the same reasons.
Feels like there was too much writing and too little time to do it.
And why move forward with a script like that?

I wonder just how much JJ could/ or did tamper with the story/rewrites during shooting and if that was a bad move; pure speculation

312. BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack - May 21, 2013

It is amazing to me to see all of the white knighting going on for this movie

@ #304, Seriously? You think Fast and Furious 6 will be dumber than this movie was? What made this movie “great” other than things blowing up and people punching each other?

Can anyone explain the plot to me in a coherent way that makes any kind of sense?

What does it matter if a future movie reveals this Khan isn’t the real Khan? Shouldn’t this movie and the characters stand on their own merits?

This is seriously like reading The Phantom Menace rationalizing at that time all over again.

313. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#308 – The message to Bob Orci would have to be one of the silliest of all. How can bringing back another iconic character from Star Trek canon (even if it might be the real Khan Noonien Singh from Northern India as per TOS Space Seed) diminish Cumberbatch’s efforts? Answer – it doesn’t. The way an actor plays a character stands or falls on their own efforts. This character Harrison/Khan is remembered as being great or otherwise, because of how this character got played out, irrespective of anyone who might come afterwards. If Harrison turns out to be John Harrison who is usurping the one who is still in the cryotubes, I think that the one in the cryotubes would find he had a formidable adversary on his hands, if he were to be awoken…

The fact that Benedict Cumberbatch is now the subject of cyber bullies speaks more about the idiocy, reprehensibility and moral deficiencies of those criticizing him than it does about him or the writers. Many are upset at the apparent “whitewashing”. I am also concerned about what appears to be high degree of “whitebashing”. Enough!

314. RNase-free Jeff - May 21, 2013

I’ve only gotten to see STID once so far (busy with my brother’s graduation over the weekend), but all I can say is WOW! I thought it was phenomenal and cannot wait to see it again.

315. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#309 – “I mean we already know from TWOK that, even without an engine, a photon torpedo is capable of safely alighting on a planet’s surface intact. Why didn’t Khan have an override or even a GD prefix code to keep them from exploding when his people are in them?”

I don’t recall any of the torpedoes actually being fired. Sulu only threatened that they would be used against Harrison if he did not comply and surrender. How do we know that Harrison/Khan did not do as you suggested, something that Admiral Marcus may not have been aware was possible. After all, it was Harrison who designed and built these torpedoes…

The other interesting aspect of all this is how the production of some many torpedoes may mirror what is happening now. The various governments spend billions of dollars on developing the latest military hardware, which will never get used or if some of it does as it was intended, we would not be here talking about it…It seems that Starfleet, under the direction of Admiral Marcus, has been doing similar to what is going on today.

316. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@293. Josh C.,
“You’re trying to argue that Khan is secretly not actually Khan, and you’re accusing ME of “making assumptions and speculating”?”

We’re both speculating about Khan’s identity. You’re speculating that Khan’s appearance is explained because they surgically altered him. I’m accusing you of speculating to defend your speculation and presenting it as fact, eg Marcus did his research ergo he has to be the real Khan.

“Why would records about the Botany Bay be lost because of the Narada?”

Because a myriad of other things were changed by the Narada.

“There is evidence from Space Seed that it was something that most people had at least general knowledge about from history lessons. And records about it probably exist both inside and outside of Federation databases. The only reason why they would be “gone” is if someone went to great lengths to remove them, and the only person who might have had incentive to do that was Marcus himself.”

While people may have general knowledge of who Khan was and what he did, that does not mean anyone ever saw a picture of him. The picture I saw in Space Seed looked just like him, yet Kirk, Scotty and McCoy who seemingly always admired him didn’t recognize him. Probably because they never saw a picture of him before. And yet the assertion here is that his identity had to be changed because people would recognize him in the street? And yes, Marcus intentionally changing or deleting the information was one of the many scenarios I already proposed.

“And you seem to be trying awful hard to argue that he is lying. It’s not going out of my way to say that someone who says he’s Khan and has no apparent reason to lie about who he is actually is Khan.”

It does if you refuse to accept Harrison has a perfectly valid reason to lie about being Khan. All I’m doing is refuting your unwillingness to accept another perspective.

“How is “he’s lying about being Khan” in any way a better or more supportable theory than “Marcus gave him cosmetic surgery to hide who he was,” especially since it’s clear Marcus was in fact actually trying to hide who he was?”

If I said it was I apologize. I would suggest they are equal based on what we know from canon. However, as I have said, there is no reason to believe anyone has ever seen that picture of Khan by 2259 or in this universe.

“How is going back and being like “oh by the way, nevermind about that whole Khan thing in Into Darkness” an “interesting plot twist”? Or at least, how is it more interesting than making Kirk a secret Dominion agent?”

Because its not about ignoring the twist in STID. And I already explained your strawman Dominion argument.

“Except, you know, pretty much the entire movie.”

Really. How does Harrison lying about being Khan undo the whole movie? You even said yourself the name Khan is irrelevant to Kirk and Spock. So to is it irrelevant to the audience.

“How does this even make sense?”

Explain how STID was all about Khan. Bob Orci already said Khan could be “Schmucko” and the plot would still work. If that’s true, then the true identity of Harrison is a pointless reveal and serves no purpose, regardless of who it is. If it turns out Harrison was Joachim after the fact, nothing Harrison did would change, the motivations would all be the same.

“But in Star Trek III they didn’t go back and pretend that Spock didn’t actually die, which is basically what you would be doing by saying “nevermind, it wasn’t actually Khan.”

I think that’s exactly what they did with Spock’s Katra. Either way in as much as TWOK, wasn’t about Spock’s death, neither does STID hinge on Harrison being Khan. Doing a future movie that explains Harrison was lying to protect a bigger secret doesn’t change what happened in STID which did not depend on the Khan reveal for anything. How is this any different than IM3 where an actor turns out to be the villain, but turns out he was lying about that to cover for the real villain? At least in that movie the name of the villain actually mattered. And despite the ending rendering the the rest of the movie pointless, it made far more money that Trek did opening weekend.

“Because he didn’t. All he confirmed is that someone COULD do that, which is no more than what I’m saying.”

But why even acknowledge it in the first place?

317. Xeos - May 21, 2013

#312

If you can’t see the difference between how this film is being received and how Phantom Menace was, then you need to read some reviews on both films and stop trying to assert that your own opinion is the only reality here. An aggregation of reviews places Into Darkness well above average, and certainly above the Star Wars prequels.

318. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#313 Oh, why, hello! Keachick, how nice to see you starting your comment with calling my message to Bob Orci is SILLIEST of all? I don’t think you are in any position to patronize me.

Of course if the writers write the script of the next film and create another Khan and indicate that is the REAL Khan Noonien Singh, that is looking down and diminishes Cumberbatch’s effort by implying that he didn’t do a great job to portray Khan Noonien Singh, which, based on the writers’ interviews, is the iconic character in Trek-verse and intened to be featured and portrayed by Cumberbatch in STID.

As for the whitewashing, how many times I have to writte on this site that the great Montalban was born in Mexico and his parents are Spanish, so he is a WHITE Mexican. Also, Sikh is a religion, not a region. Please go yelling at the original casting director who cast Montalban as well if that’s an issue. Actually, as Sikh is a religion, any ethnicity can be Sikh. Lastly, if people would like to discuss all kinds of issues about Cumberbatch’s casting, that’s fine, but that’s NEVER an excuse for cycber bullies, and btw, unfortunately, pepole mostly direct thier angst to the most easy target, which is the actor, not the producers, writers, casting directors and the director.

And, are you yelling at me and asking me to “shut my mouth” by writing “Enough!” I feel you are, and I can tell you that I have every right to express my opinion here and not to be bullied to be silent by you.

319. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#318 EllenC

Please explain how Cumberbatch is being “cyber-bullied”? I don’t think that word means what you think it means, but I may not have all my facts straight.

320. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@308 Ellen C,
” Unless Anthony confirmed otherwise, the question is obvious whether Khan, the villain Cumberbatch portrayed is a great/ ok/ bad villain”

We’ll have to agree to disagree. The question is worded as follows: “Thoughts on Cumberbatch’s INTO DARKNESS Villain?”

I take it to mean, how did I enjoy the actor’s performance, since clearly the character is not his. And I enjoyed his performance very much. As far as I’m concerned, he’s John Harrison. Perhaps he said his name was Khan, but that’s inconsequential to Cumberbatch’s performance. He could have said his name was “Schmucko” and it wouldn’t have affected the quality of his performance one iota. Contrast that with how I would respond to this same question substituting Eric Bana — I would say he was an awful villain, not because Nero was an awful character (which he was), but Bana gave an awful performance with the material he was given.

However, I appreciate your clarification and reading through those delightful quotes!

321. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

It is pretty comical to read some of the negative stuff posted by fans of star trek and film.

Wouldnt surprise me if all the negative stuff is posted by one butt hurt fan boy who holds twok as something sacred. Lighten up and enjoy the movie knowing this is a alternate reality.

The reviews are in the majority positive, it was #1 at the box office last week and the film has some fantastic actors and actresses and people behind this film.

This film is in the top 3 of all star trek movies so be happy :)

I do know why some of you fans give us other fans a bad rep!

322. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

Btw I wouldnt be surprised if the wife is Khans wife and that was his daughter.

323. BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack - May 21, 2013

#317

I was never talking about the reviews, or rottentomatoes. I was talking about the reaction of fans to valid criticism of this films many flaws, and the awesome irony of calling out other movies as being dumb. The Phantom Menace actually had a fresh rating at the time of release BTW, it was 60 some odd percent. Roger Ebert gave the movie three stars.

Kirk fixes the warp core by KICKING IT.

Khan has the drop on all three of them, and then surrenders after asking how many torpedoes there were. No one on the ship stops to ask why, and wonder if they shouldn’t check out the torpedoes.

Why did robocop command the super secret super starship himself? Shouldn’t he be keeeping this on the downlow?

How do you build a super secret super starship in the earth system in the 23rd century without anyone knowing?

How is it possible that the base of the federation, in which there would be presumably many ships, and at least one starbase that we see in the movie, remain oblivious to a gigantic space battle occuring between an unknown starship and the FLAGSHIP of the fleet? A battle occuring within the orbit of the moon?

How do the Enterprise and Vengeance fall from 238,000 Km to the earth in a span of 10 or 15 minutes? Why do they do this?

Why does Spock think it’s no big deal he has discovered an imposter stowaway on board?

Why does Admiral Marcus give Kirk the torpedoes if he knew that the Botany Bay crew were hidden inside?

Why wouldn’t Kirk want to know who he was actually dealing with when Khan’s identity is revealed?

Why does Spock assume Spock Prime would have any knowledge of who Khan is?

I can go on forever on this, this movie is as stupid as any of normal summer blockbusters are. It’s given a free pass here because it’s named Star Trek.

324. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

Hey Anthony or whoever moderate the site, why you guys sometime deleted posts that has links & sometime not, are there guidelines or it just whenever you like don’t like something, you deleted it.

325. Dan - May 21, 2013

This movie will have some legs…it wasn’t as great as ST 09 but it was still an above average Trek movie. Box Office Mojo had it making $8 million on Monday, which isn’t bad (about a half million more than ST 09 on its first Monday after opening weekend)

326. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#323

If you pay attention, admiral marcus gives kirk 72 botany bay superman torpedos as the ultimate FU to Khan, what better way to get revenge and punish Khan then by blowing him up with his family in one shot.

As you do not even get this part, there is no hope for you.

327. Phil - May 21, 2013

I feel a little vindication here…from Mr. Lindelof.

Women of America – particularly female “Star Trek” fans – co-writer/producer Damon Lindelof has something to say to you: There was no practical reason for Alice Eve to appear in her lingerie in “Star Trek Into Darkness,” and he’s sorry for that….Back on topic, Lindelof wrote, “What I’m saying is I hear you, I take responsibility and will be more mindful in the future.”

Nice to know I wasn’t that far off on the observation that the shot was nothing more then a T&A shot.

328. JR - May 21, 2013

Hey… where did the ‘warp factor’ go? Everything is just ‘go to warp’ and be there is 30 seconds.

329. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

I love TnA I hope there is more in part 3 :)

330. T'Cal - May 21, 2013

I couldn’t be happier with the movie! The writers did an excellent job of making sure the main characters’ motivations (Kirk, Bones, Spock, Pike, and Khan) were strong and logical, the secondary characters (Chekov, Uhura, Sulu, Scotty, Lt. & Adm. Marcus) all had important things to do and say, and the humor was actually funny. The pacing was spot on, the action big but not just for the sake of being big, and the emotional scenes struck cords when they should have. The scene in the warp core played homage to TWOK while taking it in a different direction. The end finished the story but left it open for another movie. At first I thought it would’ve been cool for Kirk to place Khan and his Augments on Ceti Alpha V at the end, which would’ve been in keeping with the moral code of capturing Khan rather than killing him. But capturing them all and showing them in cryo-chambers works for me. Still out there is what will the blood transfusions from Khan to the little girl and to Kirk mean for them? Will there be any side- or after-affects? If so, positive or negative? Will Kirk and Carol get together in the next film? Let’s hope we see by 2016, the 50th anniversary of Trek.

331. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - May 21, 2013

It needed to be MORE ORIGINAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2009 was original…. (I went 10 times in theaters)

Into Darkness was a copy of TROK…. (I have gone once and will go only one more time in theaters)

WHO AGREES WITH ME???????

AM I MISSING SOMETHING??????

332. Mel - May 21, 2013

The Khan scream of Spock felt like a parody. During a lot of the 2009 movie and also a big part of Into Darkness, Kirk and Spock don’t even like each other much. Spock even betrayed Kirk at the start of Into Darkness and Kirk was at the risk to get downgraded a lot because of it. So this overly emotional reaction of Spock towards Kirk’s death felt out of character. They haven’t properly established a strong friendship between Kirk and Spock yet to explain Spock’s very emotional reaction.

Why did Scott only call Spock to begin with, when Kirk was dying? I think in Abramsverse McCoy is Kirk’s best friend so far. They know each other since they started attending the Starfleet Academy together and McCoy were shown supporting Kirk a lot. I think the Khan scream would have been more in-character for McCoy.

333. Reign1701A - May 21, 2013

I’m going to preface the following nitpick with this: I absolutely loved the movie. I’ll have to see it a few more times before I decide where it ranks among the movies, but I’d say it’s in the upper third for sure. Brilliantly acted, dazzling special effects, emotionally resonant, and politically relevant.

That said, one part of the movie makes no sense to me and I haven’t seen many other mention it. BobOrci, perhaps you can shed some light? When the Enterprise and the Vengeance are in the Sol system near the moon, it is clear that the Enterprise still has communications abilities as Uhura is able to raise Old Spock all the way on New Vulcan so his younger self can ask him for some advice. Instead of hailing Old Spock for advice, why didn’t Spock hail Starfleet for help or send out a distress call? Maybe one that says “hey everybody, we just got fired upon by another Federation ship, help please?”.

Along the same lines (and this has been mentioned lots of times), it seems pretty silly that nobody on Earth seems to give a damn that 2 Starfleet ships are exchanging weapons fire, and then don’t notice that 2 Starfleet ships are about to crash onto the surface. If there was some throwaway line about the Vengeance blocking communications ability (like the Narada), it’d be fine…except that they were still able to talk to New Vulcan.

Anyone got any theories?

334. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

“Of course if the writers write the script of the next film and create another Khan and indicate that is the REAL Khan Noonien Singh, that is looking down and diminishes Cumberbatch’s effort by implying that he didn’t do a great job to portray Khan Noonien Singh, which, based on the writers’ interviews, is the iconic character in Trek-verse and intended to be featured and portrayed by Cumberbatch in STID.”

No. The only people diminishing and looking down on Cumberbatch’s performance are some members of the audience. If people are doing this, this means that they indeed idolize the original Khan way too much. This Harrison/Khan never indicated that he was actually Khan Noonien Singh – only prime Spock spoke about the Khan Noonien Singh he knew from the prime universe.

Frankly, the writers are idiots to even bring Khan into this movie at all. I said NO KHAN. There was also discussion on women being represented better, yet you had to even cut a scene which told us a little more about a female character, Carol Marcus (like, how much of real film time would have taken up – 2 minutes if that?) Pathetic. Maybe, one day, you guys just might listen to older and wise counsel…;)

335. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#332 – Darn good point. I think if Dr McCoy had run along and seen Kirk in the decontamination room dying, then he may well have screamed Khan. He knew Kirk for a lot longer than Spock and they were good buddies…

336. BobOrci Is A Crazy Hack - May 21, 2013

#326

So they were going to fire 72 torpedoes at the Klingon home world to kill ONE man? You’re right, that makes perfect sense.

337. borgmatrix - May 21, 2013

@323

>>Kirk fixes the warp core by KICKING IT.

The issue was that it was misaligned, so that required physically moving it back into place. Hence kicking it.

>>Khan has the drop on all three of them, and then surrenders after >>asking how many torpedoes there were. No one on the ship stops to >>ask why, and wonder if they shouldn’t check out the torpedoes.

Kirk and crew thought he stopped and surrendered because they had such a huge number aimed and ready to blast him out of existence with. They didn’t realize it wasn’t the high number, but that the number 72 had specific significance for him.

>>Why did robocop command the super secret super starship himself? >>Shouldn’t he be keeeping this on the downlow?

I don’t know that he’s doing anything illegal. He was referred to as the head of Starfleet. He can command it himself if he wants to.

>>How do you build a super secret super starship in the earth system in >>the 23rd century without anyone knowing?

I don’t know that it had to be that secret. Again, I don’t know that he was operating outside his boundaries as head of Starfleet to authorize construction of a starship. But besides the fact that something was going on over there, no one would know what exactly since it was being constructed within that dock/space station.

>>How is it possible that the base of the federation, in which there would >>be presumably many ships, and at least one starbase that we see in >>the movie, remain oblivious to a gigantic space battle occuring >>between an unknown starship and the FLAGSHIP of the fleet? A battle >>occuring within the orbit of the moon?

I don’t remember anything in the movie hinting that it was oblivious. Marcus may have communicated with HQ that he was taking out a rogue threat called Enterprise.

>>Why does Spock think it’s no big deal he has discovered an imposter >>stowaway on board?

If it was no big deal, he probably wouldn’t have confronted her. And what he discovered by confronting her would give him a better sense of just how big a deal it was.

>>Why does Admiral Marcus give Kirk the torpedoes if he knew that the >>Botany Bay crew were hidden inside?

Because he wanted to have all the evidence of the augments destroyed. Plan was for Kirk to destroy Khan. And then, with Enterprise stranded in Klingon space due to sabotage, the Klingons would then come looking for who fired upon their world, find Enterprise, and destroy it and all the augments with it.

>>Why does Spock assume Spock Prime would have any knowledge of >>who Khan is?

He doesn’t. That’s why he asks if Spock Prime knows anything about him.

338. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@332…most of the “Kirk/Spock” friendship was something that was covered and expanded upon in the comic series..each book has shown the relationship turn into a friendship.

A fault of the film is that it does delve into stuff that only fans would know or knowledge of comic book lore (which are official, in regardes to this rebooted Trek)

@333..I’m starting to think that Earth just does not have starships around when the Enterprise is in town. That’s an age old issue with Star Trek…it even turned into a funny joke on the text commentary on the TMP directors cut. Everyone leaves town when the 1701 is around

The one thing I don’t get…if some folks hate this film and the 2009 film so much…why do you comment on here? It’s a fan site that is mostly dedicated to the Abrams Trek films. It started because of those films. The broken record hatred just gets old after a while and has devolved into downright trolling.

339. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#336

If you are Admiral Marcus it does lol why risk missing when you can send the entire volley and be rid of the mess you made.

How many times have you seen drones or bombers drop bombs and fire missles in mountainous terrain looking for terrorists in the past 12 years?

Makes sense to me…

340. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#333

Admiral Marcus was head of starfleet and he had already comm with starfleet that the enterprise disobeyed orders, enter klingon space and homeworld killed klingons, and has gone rogue with fugitive harrison and he is going to destroy the entrprise as being a threat to national security, earth and starfleet.

341. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

No @ THX-1138 your arguments are lame and flawed and you are obviously a complainer. You pay your dime for a film so you can run home down to the basement and jump online and moan and complain about it.

This is not 1986. William Shatner will not be on the Tonight Show and no Grace Lee Whitney is not in the next Trek. Dude are you like 70? You and that other clown who think that Khan was not Khan are way too funny.

What most of you guys are missing is that the writers said that the alternate reality is a quantum reality where some things happen and some don’t. Some things happen sooner and none at all. They could have just scorch Earthed all of it but they didn’t and they made Nimoy the thread from the old to the new back to the ‘new-old’. This movie does not mean those events did not happen. Those old stories are still there. Go watch them if you want to see them so bad. Enough with your lame theories and petty child like arguments.

This idea that he is not Khan and you want to get into semantics is hilarious to me. Whether you fan boys like it or not, He was Khan and that’s it. Stop trying to read more into it. If he was not Khan would not the cameras have shown the face of another Dude in another Tube with his name on it unopened? You morons want a Lian Neeson moment and you are not going to get one so, you have to make one up.

If Anthony gets Bob Orci on for a Q and A pose the question and then wipe the egg off your face.

342. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

@ 338. Robman007 – May 21, 2013

“@332…most of the “Kirk/Spock” friendship was something that was covered and expanded upon in the comic series..each book has shown the relationship turn into a friendship.”

The comic are NOT canon. In STID they mentioned that no one died under Kirk command, which in turn contradicted with the comics where we see at least 3 people were killed under Kirk.

343. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@323 dmduncan,
“But on an issue that DOES elucidate or mirror canon you can’t be overly concerned about what “most” people unfamiliar with canon think. They’re just going to have to do their homework if they want to have a deeper understanding of what’s going on, and the deeper meaning of the Marcus-undressed scene is, if not a moment of ignition between Kirk and Marcus, at least where fuel is entering the combustion chamber.”

Ha! So female objectification is OK if the reason for it is explained offscreen! Good to know! Especially for a movie Abrams said was not made for the fans. Ha!

@ 279. dmduncan
“Based on my ONE viewing, I’d say that Marcus was behind EVERYTHING. Marcus orchestrated Harrison’s attack on the archives, the meeting, and had Harrison beamed to Qonos.”

I like it. I’m confused by it, but I like it.

So to recap:

1) Harrison designs a new torpedo capable of concealing the 72 stasis pods containg his fellow crewmen which Marcus has been holding hostage to get him to do his bidding, and which he has somehow located and figured out how to access undetected and smuggle away in the torpedoes.
2) Marcus somehow discovers the torpedoes are designed to contain the stasis pods he’s secretly been stashing away and figures Harrison can no longer be controlled, but he plays it cool. He contacts Harrison and orders him to have the archives destroyed (setting up the meeting with Clarke himself), attack the captains meeting, and then beam to the Klingon homeworld and wait for instructions. Harrison agrees only because he’s not ready to move the torpedoes yet.
3) Once Harrison is on the Klingon homeworld, Marcus loads the torpedoes with the 72 stasis pods and sends Kirk to dispatch both Harrison and the pods, while simultaneously starting a war with the Klingons. Marcus would have sent any old captain but realizes Kirk will be eager to do a good job to get his command back as well as revenge for Pike — it can’t fail!
4) Harrison only finds out Marcus has discovered his plan when Kirk tells him he’s carrying 72 torpedoes.

Is that about right?

344. govna - May 21, 2013

just browsing over at rotten tomatoes….i have a feeling Star Trek is about to get creamed this weekend.

The kids are out of school…and theyre going to spend their money on things that arent Trek.

Fast and Furious
The Hangover
Epic

That could easily be the top three this weekend. Which will put STID at a distant 4th. At best. We’ll see…..but i think we should all brace for a fourth place let down.

345. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

Harrison saves his daughter from death and gets the dude banging his wife to kill himself via the archive bombing.

Marcus learns that Khan has gone rogue and had discovered Khan has been hiding his family in the torpedos.

Marcus uses Kirk to get rid of Khan and his family through sitting on neutral zone and launching at Khan then come home and celebrate.

Admiral Marcus gets his Klingon war, Khan and his family is wiped out except for his wife and daughter whom is still in London.

346. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

He said he was Khan. I can’t believe that grown men are really this stupid. He said that John Harrisson was a ruse from the moment he woke up.

Some of you are on here saying that its not him because he did not use his whole name? LOL you guys really need to get out more. Really get out of that basement and get some air. Some of you are so fixated on 30 years ago that you refuse to even see a new Khan. Its a mistake right? A temporal shift in space time. Please grow up. The memory alpha entry says: Khan Noonien Singh (or simply, Khan) . It does not matter. In the original series he did not identify himself by his full name. So now that the white guy is in the role now he is not who he says he is. Man sounds familiar.

We had Birthers. Now we haven Khaners.

347. Craiger - May 21, 2013

I think STID already made its money back. Is that all it takes to for Paramount to want to make a third one?

348. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

By the way I loved Carol Marcus. Alice Eve is beautiful. They had nothing to apologize for. Once again this hyper PC culture we live in. That scene was harmless. Feminists and Trekkies are a bad combination.

349. Craiger - May 21, 2013

Sorry, should have added made its money back counting the international sales.

350. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@328. JR,
“Hey… where did the ‘warp factor’ go? Everything is just ‘go to warp’ and be there is 30 seconds.”

My guess is Abrams figured, if you have the choice of getting there in an hour, or 30 seconds, who wouldn’t chose 30 seconds every time. So he “simplified” it like he did with the star dates. “Warp” is one size fits all. The speed at which you go then must be determined by the size of your nacelles as the Vengeance handily overtakes Enterprise.

351. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#347

I think the cast and crew signed on to do 3, as long as they make some money, we will get 3 imo.

352. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#348

You are a fresh of breath air, thank you!

353. borgmatrix - May 21, 2013

Craiger, to break even its gotta make roughly twice the budget. So it still has a way to go. But, I’m not too worried about it. By the time its theatrical run is done, I think it will be in the profit range.

354. GermanTrekker - May 21, 2013

1. Star Trek
2. Star Trek Into Darkness
3. Star Trek To … / From … ??? (give me a title that works without colons!)

355. Chingatchkook - May 21, 2013

#1- Best ‘first’ comment, ever :-D

356. Red Dead Ryan - May 21, 2013

I went and saw “Star Trek Into Darkness” again today. It was even better the second time around.

357. Mel - May 21, 2013

@ 338. Robman007

The comics don’t count in my opinion. They are a nice addition for fans, but the movies should make sense completely on their own. I think they could have build up the Kirk and Spock friendship better or they could have simply acknowledge, that NuTrek Kirk and Spock aren’t yet such good friends as much older Kirk and Spock were in Star Trek 2. So I would have preferred a more toned down reaction from Spock.

It would have also make more sense, considering he is half Vulcan and Spock traditionally showed emotions less openly. I am not really a fan of letting this Spock act practically like a full human. I like alien characters and Abrams Spock isn’t acting much like one. He expresses emotions practically as open all the time as all the other fully human characters, be it love, anger, sadness, etc.

358. Phil - May 21, 2013

@353. Not that much, actually. A non-franchise flick would spend 30-40MM marketing, a movie like STID or Man of Steel maybe 100MM, tops. I figure that once STID hits 300MM, it’s in the profit. In my opinion, of course….

359. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

Alice is a beautiful woman so what happened was unattractive women got offended and accused Trek of being Sexist but had it been Bea Arthur in a bikini nobody would have batted an eye. The scene was there for a reason. Marcus will be the mother of Kirks son or daughter (hey its a new reality) That scene was a set up for them. She was not naked and she was not dancing to a Lil Wayne song. She was changing and asked him to turn around.

Damon Bob you guys have nothing to apologize for. It was not a big deal. It was just angry women (and some guys) who love being angry at anything that makes them uneasy.

I am sorry but a lot of these lame arguments on here are way too funny. The white guy cant be Khan. How do explain this and How did this happen? Its called Science Fiction for a reason. Sit back and enjoy it instead of nitpicking every little thing you don’t agree with.

I hate to break it to you gents but Gene Roddenberry is not coming to through the door.

360. borgmatrix - May 21, 2013

@358

Phil, it wasn’t just the marketing that I was factoring in, but also that the studio isn’t getting all the box office intake. Roughly half is going to the theaters. If I remember right, in initial weeks of release it’s slanted more 70% of the money to the theaters, 30% to the studio; and then in later wks 30% to the theaters, 70% to the studio. Rough estimate of looking at it. So the longer a movie’s theatrical run, the better it is for the studio.

But, if I’m remembering all this sort of correctly, I think the overall approximation is basically twice the budget to break even as the rough rule of thumb.

361. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#319 Although I highly suggest that you don’t as I personally don’t think searching and reading such info is very pleasant, but if you are interested in knowing how people photoshopped Cumberbatch’s face on some brown or black people or their feet, or created thousands of alternatives of his name or called him a racist and tagged such posts on Tumblr/ Twitter or other social media whitewashing or racist, please search Star Trek Into Darkness, Benedict Cumberbatch, Whitewashing, Racist, social justice, and maybe the alternatives of his name on such sites, you’ll see plenty of such behaviors. I don’t search such tags, but there are increasing amount of such posts showing up on my Tumblr dashboard, so I can imagine how many posts that have been posted on those tags, and you can see how much such virtual communities behave like juveniles bullying classmates at schools cafeterias.

As for the definition of Cycberbully, if we are talking the legislation in different states of the US, I’m afraid that I can’t provide you with such info as it would take too much time to search, but here’s some examples of such behaviors on Wiki:

“Kids report being mean to each other online beginning as young as 2nd grade. According to research, boys initiate mean online activity earlier than girls do. However, by middle school, girls are more likely to engage in cyberbullying than boys. Whether the bully is male or female, his or her purpose is to intentionally embarrass others, harass, intimidate, or make threats online to one another. This bullying occurs via email, text messaging, posts to blogs, and web sites.

The National Crime Prevention Association lists tactics often used by teen cyberbullies.]

Pretend they are other people online to trick others
Spread lies and rumors about victims
Trick people into revealing personal information
Send or forward mean text messages
Post pictures of victims without their consent”

Granted, such messages posted on social media can’t be directly sent to Cumberbatch, but everything posted online is open to be read or searched, no one ever knows whether Cumberbatch would read such messages online and what’s the impact on him, but they are out there.

362. TrekMadeMeWonder - May 21, 2013

310. Jeffman1701

I am done trying to make a point here at TM. Really.; Why try.

Actually Jeffman, you do not have to say anything more to me.
I am hanging up my Trekkie tunic.

You have proven to me how senseless it really is in trying to intelligently discuss Star Trek – or whatever it has become recently – anymore.

So take take your great knowledge of Trek and use it however you want.
You will not hear me ‘complaining’ ANYMORE.

Bye all! Bye TrekMovie. Its was fun for a while. But it seems Trek has passed me by. Thanks everyone, in advance, for standing up for what’s right. I just can’t do this anymore.

363. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#320. Curious Cadet

Sure, agree to disagree. Thanks for reading thoses quotes. I’m glad that at least people know that it’s the writers’ intention to use Khan Noonien Singh in STID.

364. Karen - May 21, 2013

@359 Captain Jake

And if your charming, sensitive commentary doesn’t entirely make my point, I don’t know what does.

Really? You’re really going to stand by something that offensive? That ugly women get to keep their mouths shut because they have nothing of value to say and their feelings don’t matter? And attractive women automatically want to be ogled? And that you, as a man, get to tell women to sit down and stfu when they say something you don’t like?

Classy. Very classy.

365. Photon70 - May 21, 2013

@ 360. borgmatrix – May 21, 2013

Hi all,

A typical box office distribution in North America between studio:cinema is:

1st week: 90% studio.
2nd week: 80% studio.
3rd week: 70% studio.
4th & subsequent weeks: 60% studio.

This is what I’ve read is the typical arrangement. Some movies get negotiated special deals.

For example, the Star Wars prequels in North America, 100% of the 1st weekend take went to Lucasfilm.

Cinemas make the majority of their turnover from the consession stand.

366. borgmatrix - May 21, 2013

@365

Interesting, thanks! So what would be looking at with STID (or any movie) to get a sense of how its doing vs its budget and what it needs to shoot for?

367. You want me to put on a WHAT color shirt!?!? - May 21, 2013

Saw it for the second time today and still love it. Where some see a rip-off of TWOK, I see a poignant homage while parallel universes try to align themselves. As for the complaints of shaky science and plot holes – show me a Trek show without them. I stopped trying to rationalize all of the “science” in 1968.

Thanks to JJ and the Supremes for a fun ride!

368. EllenC - May 21, 2013

#334. Keachick

Obviously you didn’t pay any attention to what I wrote. My message was to Mr. Orci, not the audience who may or may not think Cumberbatch did a good job as Khan in STID. And based on the writers’ interviews I just posted, they expressly indicated that they were doing the iconic character Khan Noonien Singh of Trek-verse in STID, and they were fine that Cumberbatch portrayed this iconic character. If they create a New Khan Noonien Singh in the future movie and such a character is played by the other actor and they explain that what Cumberbatch played is actually not real Khan Noonien Singh in STID, then they harm Cumberbatch’s creditability as an actor because such a behavior is implying that they don’t think Cumberbatch did a good job as Khan Noonien Singh in STID, which is also contrary to what they have been saying about Cumberbatch’s performance in STID, as they have been giving him high praises. As to whether you want Khan to be in this movie or not, it’s irrelevant to my message to Mr. Orci.

Finally, I think you owe me an apology for being condescending and rude to me in your previous comment.

369. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

What you guys think about the music in STID?

370. Gary 8.5 - May 21, 2013

Why have Harrison be a Fake Khan and not say it on screen ?
That does not make any sense.

371. Photon70 - May 21, 2013

366. borgmatrix – May 21, 2013

Gazing into the crystal ball, and all allowing for the best case scenario whereby STID matches ST2009 box office take, then the split for the studio will match the publicised movie budget of $185million from just the North American market.

If the movie doubles in International take to $256million, then the international split (only about 33% to the studio) will be about $85million.

So if the total box office gets to about $500million, then the studio gets about $270million.

If STID makes only $200million in North America, and $200million Internationaly, then the studio will get about $215million back.

So even at the low end of current estimates, the movie will generate a profit.

Forget about advertising costs as in the movie business, its the box office gross that is the only real number.

372. THX-1138 - May 21, 2013

#361 EllenC

I stand corrected.

I will say for my part that I find his casting questionable. As I have said before, I feel that I have been sold a notion for 46 years or so that the character, Khan Noonien Singh, was a native North Indian. I also understood that even though Trek was a progressive show, this character was cast utilizing the talents of Ricardo Montalban, a Mexican born actor of Spanish lineage. This practice was not uncommon in the 60′s. Oftentimes you would have non-Native Americans cast as Apaches and other native American roles, or even as Asians. Heck, even Leonard Nimoy played an “Indian” on a show called “Old Overland Trail”. The point being, we ALL bought into Khan’s heritage. To me, Cumby’s casting makes no sense whatsoever. And since no actual explanation has been offered, his being Khan just seems ludicrous. Great performance, just not Khan. And given that I am not too fond of the WOK rip-off it only furthers my dislike for the second half of the movie. I will always feel that Khan was a bad choice. I said it almost immediately after the 09 Trek.

373. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

For what it’s worth, Into Darkness did $500,000 better than 2009 did on it’s first Monday. If it can do that for Monday through Thursday, that’s about $2 million it can gain during the week.

Into Darkness did $8 million yesterday. 2009 did $7.5 million on it’s first Monday.

374. amazom - May 21, 2013

should i stay thru the credits? anything besides credits in the credits?

375. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#362 – You have made some pretty specious comments, which some have challenged. Please don’t make out that you are necessarily more intelligent than others or are on some kind of higher moral ground.

“Harrison saves his daughter from death and gets the dude banging his wife to kill himself via the archive bombing.”
What evidence was ever given that the little girl Harrison saved was his daughter?

#318 “And, are you yelling at me and asking me to “shut my mouth” by writing “Enough!” I feel you are, and I can tell you that I have every right to express my opinion here and not to be bullied to be silent by you.”

NO. I apologize for not phrasing the comment better. The comment was about all the talk of “whitewashing” which has clearly become an excuse for “whitebashing”, if what is being said to and about Benedict Cumberbatch on the various nefarious internet sites is any indication. “Enough!” was meant as a general exclamation. It was not directly intended for you. I can understand how you might believe that I was having a go at you, but I wasn’t. I apologize for causing this misunderstanding.

Captain Jake Sisko – What’s with the generally belligerent attitude?

376. Photon70 - May 21, 2013

@ 373. Josh C. – May 21, 2013

If that trend continues, and STID pulls in say $45million in the 2nd weekend, then in dollar terms at least, it’ll be slightly in front of ST2009.

If it pulls in only about $30million in the 2nd weekend, then it doesn’t ahve the legs.

Will be keenly awaiting this Friday’s figure for North America.

Anything north of $15million, and STID’s got legs.

377. Captain Jake Sisko - May 21, 2013

@Karen

found nothing wrong with that scene. The scene was just fine and yes it was the insecure that found something wrong with that scene.

Your reaction is typical. You are going way overboard. There was nothing wrong with it. It was tasteful. So Pine having his shirt off, does that qualify as well? You can make the same case for him that you can for her. (I know you are not going to like that)

378. jclarkfischer - May 21, 2013

Bob Ori
From a 48 year Trelk fan thanks for a wonderful movie experience. One question-I note in the book many of the supposed “plot holes” are explained-how Kirk is able to get hold of Scotty in the bar-how Khan could transwarp beam to Quonos etc. Were these items drifted from the final film to improve the pacing?

379. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#374

Nope.

I wish they did, would have been cool to show a shot of Klingons feet walking towards high command and we see their armada prepping and firing up SPOILER then we see camera cut to Khan sleeping in cryo tube who gets waken up by a little girl and her mother and in big 80s style blue writing, it says the human adventure continues om stardate 05152015

380. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

376 Photon70 – yeah. it’s about $1.5 million behind 2009 as far as Day vs. Day 5 (Fri – Tues for it, Thurs-Mon for ID).

What will be interesting though is Hangover 3 starts late night Wednesday and full time Thursday, while Fast 6 starts late night Thursday, so we’ll have to see what that might do to Star Trek’s Wednesday and Thursday numbers

381. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#375

Just my wild imagination

382. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

I suppose the good thing is that, at least, here, Star Trek is only losing 2 shows. 2D is going from 6 to 4, but 3D is staying at 7 shows. Looks like the buik of the theaters for Fast 6, Epic, and Hangover are being taken from Gatsby and IM3

What’s helping with that is that it seems neither Hangover or Fast 6 have 3D shows, only Epic, so Star Trek is keeping all of it’s 3D theaters

383. borgmatrix - May 21, 2013

Photon70,
So it looks like the studio will be getting a little more than half of the world-wide total? Is that a good way of generally estimating a studio’s intake, comparing a little more than half its world-wide box office vs the budget (versus doubling the budget as the number to shoot for as I was doing previously)?

If that makes any sense. I’m confusing myself now.

384. Ahmed - May 21, 2013

@ 382. Josh C. – May 21, 2013

“What’s helping with that is that it seems neither Hangover or Fast 6 have 3D shows, only Epic, so Star Trek is keeping all of it’s 3D theaters”

At last, some good news there! 3D & IMAX tickets were the only thing that allowed the movie to gain more money than ST09.

385. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#368 – EllenC

Yes, I agree that it was question for Bob Orci and on that point, you are correct that it would be best if we wait for his response…we could be waiting a while though, given how busy Bob Orci’s is and/or his reticence to answer some questions put to him.

However, I just do not agree with your contention that Benedict Cumberbatch’s performance and status as an actor could be undermined by it turning out that his John Harrison/Khan is not the same Khan Noonien Singh that the prime Enterprise crew met. His Harrison/Khan is a very credible and powerful character in his own right.

386. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

384 Ahmed – and, at least for the closest IMAX thteaters near me are keeping Star Trek in IMAX for next weekend, NOT Epic. Fast 6 is only going IMAX internationally, per their website.

Apparently the next thing to go into IMAX is After Earth, which is the weekend after next.

387. Gary 8.5 - May 21, 2013

Lets not forget, It is Memorial Day weekend.
So while the Friday number is important, it is going to be a long four days .

388. Robman007 - May 21, 2013

@369, I love the soundtrack. It’s in my CD player right now. Track 3 is my favorite.

389. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

388 – I love the harrison theme / arrival of the Vengeance music best myself I think

390. porthoses bitch - May 21, 2013

Im confused by a bit of dialouge…..when the Captains gather who is Marcus talking about when he says “I was contacted an hour ago” is that the girls father ? Is he alive? Certainly wouldn’t seem possible.

391. Photon70 - May 21, 2013

@ 383. borgmatrix – May 21, 2013

Best to look at the North American and International grosses separately.

Generally, the studio keeps 70% of the North American gross; and only 33% of the International gross as a rough rule of thumb.

392. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

390 –

just before he blew up the installation, you see him press a button and “message transmitting. recipient: Admiral Marcus” is seen on the screen

393. Dee - lvs moon surface - May 21, 2013

#193. dmduncan …

Totally agree with you about that! Great you said that! ;-) :-)

394. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

“but had it been Bea Arthur in a bikini nobody would have batted an eye.”

You want a bet. There wouldn’t be complaints about sexual objectification of women but “no fat (old) naked chicks on my Star Trek” type comments. Of course, nobody would be thinking sex as in sexualization or objectification because, as everybody knows, *older, fat females don’t have sex* or certainly not considered sexually attractive in any way.

The scene was OK. I am not sure why Carol needed to change. Wasn’t she going to examine one of the torpedoes? Kirk did not need to get changed, nor other crew, even though they were where she was – or perhaps I have my scenes mixed up?

395. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

I so wanted to see Captain Robert April and First Officer Marcus find the bb and they revive Khan and integrate him into starfleet, we see Khan rise through the ranks, completing simulations and tests with precision. We see Marcus betray April to get promoted.

Marcus uses Khans family against him to do his bidding, has Khan assigned to section 31. Khans wife and daughter is assigned to another agent. Khan undergoes facial cosmetic surgery and gene sequencing. Khan develops idea to free his family including wife and daughter, nobody knows of his face change other than Marcus.

This could have been in place at start of movie or in flashback via in brig mindmeld

396. Josh C. - May 21, 2013

395 –

well, I think we are going to get a set of John Harrison comics, so we may see the history of how all that went down. However, I think April was hiding out on that one planet long before Marcus found the Botany Bay

397. Alternate Reality=Pointless - May 21, 2013

Ho hum. It’s all an alternate timeline so it’s not really part of Star Trek. Like that James Bond movie made independent of the rest a long time ago. Someday, people will look back on this little diversion as fun and mindless and not much more once the prime universe stories get picked up again.

398. Karen - May 21, 2013

@377 Captain Jake

When you stand on my bare foot in your hobnailed boots and I say Ow, that hurts, and you say no it doesn’t, and anyway, who cares, honey — that is offensive. You are being offensive. To say that only ugly women could object to the implications of that scene, and that beautiful women must by definition be okay with it? You are being offensive.

Is this how you treat women outside of cyberspace? Do you truly decide who needs to be respected and who can be dismissed based on their looks, and only their looks? If so, sir, were you as handsome as Johnny Depp … you have shown us your soul and it’s an ugly thing.

399. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#393 Dee – I must have missed reading dmduncan comment at #193 so scrolled. I also agree with dmduncan’s comment.

I tend to watch the movie dealing with these particular characters, cognizant of what is known about them and their quirks etc, without always trying to relate the behaviour shown to how it may affect others watching the movie. These characters need to be themselves and Kirk is Kirk. He is a young, good looking, intelligent, heterosexual male with a reasonably high libido. He is naturally attuned to the female and her various wonders to be discovered and had. Some females actually like that about a man, especially someone like James T Kirk.

Kirk is not a man who seeks to deliberately hurt or degrade women. In his youthful immaturity, his behaviour may have been too precocious and meant that a female did come out of feeling let down, degraded. He, like everyone else, is also on a learning curve.

(Are you getting this, Bob Orci, JJ Abrams…, CHRIS PINE?
Good people!)

Sometimes I feel like some people want to de-sex these characters…not healthy, not good.

400. Curious Cadet - May 21, 2013

@374. amazom.
“should i stay thru the credits? anything besides credits in the credits?”

No, but I wish this had been in it:

795. You want me to put on a WHAT color shirt!?!? – May 17, 2013
Bob Orci,

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but here is the post credits scene I was hoping to see…

Planet Nibiru…1000 years in the future.

Two archeologists digging near a long dormant volcano come across a cave painting of a “starship” and other renderings that tell a tale of “aliens” that save the local villagers.

One archeologist looks at the other and says:

“Aliens from outer space. Yeah, right.”

401. porthoses bitch - May 21, 2013

@396 would be interesting to see Khan undertake the Kobiyashi Maru and his take on it. Actually Mr Orci it would make an excellent framing device for a comic story.

BTW….All the people who are vetching about “magic” blood ( and I hate that line “special blood”) but it’s set up well when Khan uses his blood on the little girl. I know McCoy has no knowledge of that but it’s there.

Why does Marcus decide to run to the bridge to tell them to not kill Khan. Uhura has a line about comm being down but is she talking about intership ?

402. Karen - May 21, 2013

Keachick, the last thing I want to do is desex the characters. I am totally on board with a sexualised Spock/Uhura, and I’m on board with a lusty young James Kirk. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. But the objections being raised have nothing to do with wanting to de-sexualise any of the characters. The problem is rooted in gender politics and the abuse of power and the sexual objectification of women, not that Kirk has a healthy libido. You want to show me Kirk and Carol in a full on, mutually advantageous sexual relationship? Go for it. I’m all on board. Hell, I hope they fall madly in love and get to live happily ever after, the way they didn’t get to do in the alternate timeline.

And I’m not saying anybody on the Trek team is a bad person. This stuff is so culturally pervasive, it’s like asking fish to notice water. But sometimes the water needs to be pointed out, folk need to see that it’s polluted and should be changed, for the sake of everyone’s health.

The Trek team can make their Trek as sexy as they like. But they don’t get to sexually objectify women without getting some kickback.

403. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

The alternate timeline is very much part of Star Trek and what is more, it is Star Trek CANON.

It is no more, no less silly, humorous, thought-provoking, laced with various battles, punch ups and fist-fights, sexy females in pretty underwear or suggestive outfits… than that other alternate timeline. The only thing this iteration does not have nearly enough of is the shirtless sexy Kirk torso, front and back…

Actually here is how I think *that* scene should have been played – Both Jim and Carol needed to change (why? lord only knows…who cares?) in the same small room. They get their uniforms and they both decide to turn their backs on the other in order to change…however, slowly, one, both decide to take a peek…Carol first says to Jim “Turn around!” to which he replies, “No, you turn around!” They start to argue about who turned to peek first…NOBODY, no viewer knows for certain, which of the two took the first turn and peek. This is what should have been filmed and made the final cut!

Seriously, in many ways, the whole scenario is really quite foolish and childish, since surely by a more enlightened 23rd century, men and women would have got past being so coy and conceited about whether they are seen (near) naked by others or not. Then again, corrupt a**holes like Admiral Marcus still manage to be around…sigh…oh dear.

404. Dswynne - May 21, 2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Nemesis

Remember the reason why Prime Trek was scrapped in he first place in favor of a reboot.

405. porthoses bitch - May 21, 2013

Would have been a nice nodd to Shore Leave to work in McCoys line about “peeking” being in the line of duty. Actually Alice Eve kinda reminds me of that crewman. ( cant think of her name)

406. Karen - May 21, 2013

@403 Keachick

I get what you’re saying about wanting people to be better in the future … but honestly? I think your chances are Buckley’s and none. If studying history has convinced me of nothing else, it’s convinced me that people are people are people and always will be. You can change the clothing and the hairstyles, but human nature is what it is, and I don’t think the passing of time will change that. It might change small pockets of us, in some societies? But overall? A major seismic shift in the bedrock of human nature? Nah. I don’t think so.

But it’s surely nice to dream!

Also? Without it, there’d be no dramatic conflict and therefore no stories!

407. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

Whatever happens, seems Kirk and Spock has girlfriends onboard the enterprise in this reality, Star Trek Love Ship.

Maybe sulu, chekov, scotty and bones will get some hotty also? :) hehe just kidding, it would make for a perfect dinner mess hall conversations.

408. porthoses bitch - May 21, 2013

Is it just me..? When McCoy and Marcus are on the planetoid trying to disarm the torpedo did anyone else get a Easter Island vibe ?

409. Karen - May 21, 2013

@407 Somethoughts

I know. In fact, I do wonder if the Trek team actually thought this all the way through. Because the implications going forward, especially for a 5 year deep space mission, are complex, to say the least. Unless they’re modelling the shipboard protocols on TNG, where relationships between crew members were ongoing and established and they kind of hand-waved the difficulties inherent in workplace romances where people can’t actually escape each other when the sticky stuff hits the fan.

410. Mr. Anonymous - May 21, 2013

@ 79. Hat Rick

Uh, did we watch the same movie? This movie WAS basically the “Transformers” of the Star Trek universe. Sure, there may be deep themes suggested in this movie, but they sure weren’t executed in a particularly deep manner.

411. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

No worries Captain Jake, when I eat meat around vegetarians and vegans, I hear the same thing all the time. Also reminds me of when neighboring countries would argue over beliefs and religion and who is right and who is wrong. We understand some people do not like that underwear scene. Vent, let it out and carry on.

Let the meat eaters eat their meat.

412. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

#409

Yes, it will be very diffucult to do ones job without letting their personal feelings and romances get in the way. Just look at how hurt Uhura was when Spock was willing to die to save a species and a planet and look at the drama that caused throughout the movie. Dr McCoy will need to become ships counselor going forward with all the he said she said drama sire to follow them on their 5 yr mission.

What happens when Kirk and Marcus is in midst of a fight and they have to put that asside and do their jobs? I know I can never work with my wife. It would kill our relationship. I prefer the no dating rule onboard starships.

413. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

Karen – The thing is that in some ways I do agree with you. It is just that too much has been made of the scene, which basically has a woman in her underwear in the process of putting on another uniform.

People are constantly making comments about the physical appearances of others. I guess I do as well, especially, in the past, about the way I think that Chris Pine/Kirk is really lovely looking – shirtless as well. For better and worse, this is who we are as human beings – we notice physical appearance.

It is really a matter how we relate to what we see – with ignorance, crudeness, disgust, lechery, nitpicking over some physical aspect that we don’t like – or with understanding, acceptance, courtesy…

I recall, some time back on this site, a thread which showed some female trekkies dressed in Trek/Uhura costume (ie the short dress with tights) giving a stage performance…These women were amateur performers (never intimated otherwise) and came in various shapes and sizes. One or two were large women, while the rest were, what most would refer to as being chubby, but none of them were really ugly or unattractive. One larger woman, in particular, had noticeable cellulite on her thighs.

Well, the comments that came here (from males mostly I believe) – fat chicks etc. Little comment made about their performances, just generally negative comments about their physical appearances. Just as well, none of the women showed skin, like Alice Eve, otherwise one of the men, might have accused her also of being pournographic.

The really *funny* part of this is that the ones who seem get so uptight about how Alice Eve/Carol Marcus et al have been sexually objectified by the film’s producers were the same ones who called other women, who were not attractive and well endowed as Alice, as “fat chicks” and generally made fun of their not so model like appearances.

This whole “rant” about females being sexually objectified on film seems so hypocritical, skewered, weird somehow.

Why can’t people just accept, say “she looks lovely as she is” or “those women made the most of what they had, who they are and had fun dressing up us a female Starfleet officers – short dress n all – good for them!”

I dunno…:(

414. Philip - May 21, 2013

I think a lot of people are overthinking the films plot contrivances.

This movie was a joy, a thrill, and I had a smile on my face from beginning until end. Hell, it almost made me cry for pete’s sake and that’s something in of itself.

The opening scenes on Niburu were things I ALWAYS wanted to see the old gang doing in the Original Series but we never got to due to budget restraints, that alone had me sold. As far as them getting back to the moon after going to warp in a crazy fast amount of time, who cares. This isn’t 2001, this is Star Trek. Enjoy the ride or don’t. Do you guys remember when Kirk and co. shuttled into Nimbus 3 to kick some ass?? Shatner had the right idea but didn’t have the proper budget to execute those scenes. That was LEGIT, the first time we ever got to see the old gang in an original series movie go down to planet to raise hell.

JJ Abrams and co. executed it so very well.. Also, for those of you who want plot details filled in, go get the Alan Dean Foster novel for Into Darkness. He does a great job filling in the blanks as to why the crew couldn’t do it this way or that way, i.e. the technicalities.

Love this movie. Going again this weekend and probably again after that.

415. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - May 21, 2013

For those who don’t know me, I don’t post much. 49 year old guy who watched ST on NY’s channel 11 every night as a kid at 6pm, then later every night at midnight on ch 11. Watched the animated series first run. Saw every ST movie on the opening night (line for TMP was long!). To me (and this is MY opinion) only Kirk/Shatner, Nimoy/Spock et al was Star Trek for me. Not TNG, Voy, DS9 etc. I enjoyed watching them from time to time, but it just couldn’t occupy the same emotional space that “real” Trek did. But make no mistake; I am a world class expert on all things ST 66-69 and then TMP thru UC. I just never got into the later iterations.

I have always looked at any new Trek movie as just another episode, and a chance to see my old friends again, and try and enjoy it on that level. Admit it, not every one of those 79 episodes was a keeper. This is why STV, for all its ridiculousness, warms my heart. It is “my” real ST characters up there being played by the original actors. There are only 6.25 of those movies. (I give Generations a .25) Which is why is enjoyed ST ’09. At least it was Kirk & Co. The new timeline made me frown a little, but I played along. Trek was back.

I took my 16 year old daughter to see STID on Sunday night. She is a big Chris Pine fan. My review is split like good Kirk/evil Kirk. If I look at it as a mature, middle aged movie fan, I enjoyed it. It looked good, and I was interested in the story. My daughter liked it because Chris Pine was in it a lot. If I look at it as a rabid ST fan, I both enjoyed it (it is another episode, see my point above) and was greatly annoyed by it. My inner 14 year old ST nerd was highly insulted.

Others have written about the plot holes, so I won’t. What I can say is that I feel as if JJ & Co seem to not have any respect for ST. Either that, or they and the suits at Paramount have so little faith in the franchise that they felt that the only way to make money was to put enough flash and bang in it to satisfy the kids, and put the most recognizable “name” villain in it to reel in people like me.

Let me pose this question; in his upcoming Star Wars movie, would JJ dare to end that film with a lightsaber duel between a new Luke and a new Vader, and then freeze a new version of Solo in new carbonite? Basically re-film the last 30 mins of Empire Strikes Back? I doubt it. And that’s what is annoying. ESB is what made SW a franchise. Everything after ESB has been disappointing, but ESB is sacrosanct among SW fanboys, and rightly so. It is the best SW movie by a wide margin. TWOK is ST’s franchise making counterpart. I would argue that the original 6 ST movies hold up better as a set of 6 films a lot better than the 6 SW films (discuss).

I saw TWOK 20 times in the theater, easy. We were in college, and back then when a movie was a favorite, you went and saw it over and over. Those memories are fresh. Someone above used the word lazy to describe STID’s writing. That is about right. I realize they have to make a movie that makes money. And I realize that using familiar characters is a safe bet. I don’t expect to get a deep TMP type story. But ripping off Khan was cheap.

I enjoyed it like I enjoy an ice cold Coke. There is nothing better, but they are empty calories.

416. porthoses bitch - May 21, 2013

When I was little on Christmas night my mom would always ask me if I’d had a good Christmas and if I was sorry that the day was done and all the anticipation was over. I would tell it wasn’t over that I’d be playing with these toys for months to come.

Flash forward 54 years…Ive got a brand new Star Trek I can play with. 4 months from now I’ll have a blu ray with bonus features and then before you know I’ll be taking the ride again with Anthony and everyone here. As we tool up for Trek 3.

I don’t think of it as “nit picking” but simply having fun with a bright and shiny new toy. Thanks Mom for teaching me how to play.

417. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

Yea I loved the looks on the natives faces when they saw the enterprise rise out from the ocean with epic music barring, very beautiful scene, my fav scene in the movie. There is a lot of gold and epicness in this film, I will go many more times like a crazy titanic teenage fan lol

418. somethoughts - May 21, 2013

*blarring

419. Karen - May 21, 2013

@413 Peachick

I think we’re close to beating a deceased equine here … sigh … but here’s to one last hurrah.

Those instances you reference — distressing and blatantly misogynistic and cruel – are all part and parcel of the larger problem that pervades multiple human cultures around the globe ie the reduction of women to nothing but their bodies, and how those bodies are viewed as valuable/desirable, or not, by others — mostly men, but lord knows women can be as vicious and vacuous about other women as any dyed in the wool misogynists – which leads us to ranking some people as inherently more valuable than others, which in turn leads us to tolerating cruel and vicious and violent behaviour towards women (among other targeted groups).

As for equating the people who demean women like that with people, like me, who raise concerns over that scene — that’s kind of insulting. And it derails the conversation, which is about how women are portrayed and perceived in popular culture.

This isn’t a comfortable topic. It stirs up a lot of anxiety. But the bottom line is, the Trek team opened the door to it by including that scene. The fact it never occurred to any of them that it might be problematic only makes my point, I think. And no amount of abusive rhetoric can erase the implications of it. In fact, the more abusive and vicious and mean-spirited the pushback, the more vividly the point is made.

So I must say I’m confused about you calling the objections rants, and why people are hypocrites for not liking that scene. If this were nothing but some kind of attempt to put a puritanical lid on the film’s overall sexuality, then people like me would be ranting about Kirk’s threesome, and the Spock/Uhura relationship, and the way Bones calls Carol Marcus ‘sweetheart’. But so far I’ve not heard any criticism of those elements. For myself, I have no problem with any of it. I don’t need my stories to be puritanical. As I said before, bring on the mutually beneficial and equal opportunity sex!

LIke it or not, there are socio-political implications to that shuttle bay scene. That’s what many people are picking up on, and talking about. And clearly it’s made an impact because folk on the Trek team are addressing them. Only they can know if it’s lip service or a genuine recognition of a blind spot. Time will answer that one.

420. Karen - May 21, 2013

@412 Somethoughts

Exactly. I mean, there are non-frat rules in the today’s military for a reason, with human nature being what it is. But OTOH, is it reasonable to send a bunch of people on a 5 year away mission and expect them to remain celibate and unemotionally attached for the duration? Human nature being what it is, after all.

I guess the reality is, there will be hook ups and bust ups and some long term stable pairings. But since we’re also talking fiction here, you have to deal with the fact that Trek isn’t a soap opera and it’s not a romance, so … I dunno. Seems to me the Trek team is damned if it does, and damned if it doesn’t. There’s real life and there’s fiction life and I’m not sure how you balance the two, in the bigger storytelling picture.

421. Karen - May 21, 2013

Oh, and I just remembered … there was that marriage in Classic Trek. Of course, everything went to hell in a handbasket, but Kirk did officiate at a wedding for two of his crewmates. Or start to. Can’t recall which ep offhand. So the precedent has been set.

422. Gary 8.5 - May 21, 2013

Has Alice Eve had anything to say about the scene in question?

423. porthoses bitch - May 21, 2013

@415….WPIX Channel 11. If I recall Trek was bracketed with The Odd Couple and I think The Honeymooners. All three were pix staples. Was a little miffed a few years back when no mention was made of trek when pix had it’s 50th anniversary.

I remember one slow newsday when Tom Snyder opened News Center 4 at 6 with “Tonight the Enterprise doesn’t land and the Brady’s don’t get divorced (Brady Bunch on WNEW Channel 5) soyou might as well stick here with us”

424. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

#412 – That scene with Uhura stating how upset she felt was not just about the fact that Spock seemed so easily prepared to sacrifice his life was not all there was to it. She was giving the most recent and poignant example of Spock’s rather *erratic behaviour. Kirk, independently, had also noticed Spock’s “difficult” as well. I refer you to the earlier conversation Kirk and Uhura had in the turbolift about Spock, where Kirk was getting fed up Spock constantly second-guessing/querying his command decisions. Kirk wondered if it was just him, but Uhura said, “No. It’s not you”.

I don’t know how romantic relationships might play out on a ship the size of the Enterprise, with the number of crew it could have – on a five year mission. They did occur on the TOS Enterprise – in one episode, Kirk was to perform a wedding ceremony for two of the crew. There may be non-fraternization rules in place, but people will find a way to get round them, basically because the rules themselves could be seen an infringement on their personal/human rights.

Hopefully, the fact that the crew of presumably, a fairly equal number of men and women will be out in space, so far from anywhere for a good part of the time, that the need to pull together and get the job done in order to survive should trump any trivial, or not so trivial, relationship difficulties. The captain will insist on. The way I see – if a problem within a romantic relationship or friends falling out ends up being a problem for the captain, then these people would be in serious shit. Any relationships occurring happen in the crew’s own time and Kirk doesn’t want or need to know…

800 people seems too large a number of people to be on a ship in this 23rd century time period. The Kelvin crew number being 800 was way too high. It did even appear to be as big as the TOS series Enterprise, which had a crew of around 420…I put these way-off numbers being writers’ snaffoo – easily corrected with some whiteout and then written over.

425. Bill - May 21, 2013

okay so this is the longest I have gone before seeing a trek movie since st5. Okay so there were some issues, but lets be 110% honest here. We all are going to buy the dvd/blu ray. We ALL are going to watch this movie over and over again. We all enjoyed some scenes. Some will go down in Star Trek lore as the best something something. We ALL had a smile on our face at one or more points in the movie. WE are all going to reference this movie either by quote or by comparison. There were huge plot holes in every star trek movie. But I would have to say this movie was bottom line, fun to watch and I felt my $19.50 on tickets and $24.00 for dinner was well spent. To everyone who made this movie, you can look forward to more of my money the next time around. That is the best flattery I can bestow. And remember through all your nitpicking guys, it wasn’t Nemesis or Final Frontier.

426. Karen - May 21, 2013

@422 Gary 8.5

I’ve not seen anything from her. But she is in a very very tough position. I mean, I could wish she’d not done the scene or was now speaking out against the scene, but the harsh reality is she’s a working actress in a business that is notoriously and historically sexist. It’s easy for armchair critics like me to raise a ruckus, but it’s not my livelihood that’s on the line.

Maybe when the dust settles.

427. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

Karen – I am not Peachick. I am Keachick. Kea is the world’s only alpine parrot found only in the South Island of New Zealand. I was born and live in NZ.

The kea bird is considered to be most intelligent of all birds and fourth most intelligent creature on earth – 1) human beings -hard to believe sometimes..:), 2) dolphins/chimpanzees, 3) bears and 4) kea parrot. I am pretty sure that is how it goes. Anyway, this bird is very intelligent, particularly for a bird-brain.

428. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

I seem to be, unintentionally, putting my foot in it today.

Karen – this topic has been discussed a lot on other threads on this site over the past few months. I guess “ranting” is one way of describing what has been occurring here. I had no intention of insulting you. I am sorry if you got that impression.

I have also been accused of ranting, rambling, proselytizing (can’t think of the actual word used right now), trolling….

429. Karen - May 21, 2013

@427/8 Keachick

First of all, parrots rule. *g* I’m an Aussie, we do parrots.

Secondly, sorry! Brain fart.

Thirdly, no apology necessary. I really appreciate the conversation. And God knows, you’ll walk a long way to find someone more blunt than I am. We’re doing text speak, which is hideously imprecise. So no harm, no foul.

Thanks for the stimulating back and forth. You’re a star.

430. Jesustrek - May 21, 2013

Star Trek Into Darkness is:

1. It’s perfect the way it is
2. Great Villain
3. Three (at least)
4. Great Star Trek Film

;)

431. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

Karen – Oh Karen – you do parrots? Do they like it or are you seriously pecked for your efforts? such ingratitude…

Sorry – couldn’t resist…:)

432. Karen - May 21, 2013

@431 Keachick

Only if they’re shirtless … *g*

433. draderman - May 21, 2013

khan says he will destroy the life support located behind THE AFT NACELLE. WTF bob orci???????????????????

434. Charla - May 21, 2013

Finally seen it on Sunday!!!! All 5 of us went, it was great!! Not gonna nit pick it to pieces, because overall it was really good. Loved the change up with Kirk and Khan, the action, the humor- even my sister loved it and she isn’t a “Trekkie”. Excellent job. Gonna go again at least a couple more times!

435. Chasco - May 21, 2013

#19 “Bob, you interact with fans occasionally about your films. Do you glean information from those conversations?

Orci: Yeah, absolutely. We interact with them because we like to take in information, good or bad.
==
Uh-huh. Well, that would certainly explain how well they took on board all those comments and poll results after the earlier film, which indicated that the majority of fans did NOT want more Spock/Uhura, did NOT want to ever see Keenser again, did NOT want Kahn revisited, did NOT want the brewery to stand in for engineering…
Yep, they listen to and heed every word the fans say.

436. Buzz Cagney - May 21, 2013

Since they went to all the trouble to set this Trek in a new timeline, thereby introducing a whole new set of dangers and perils for the crew, why then did they come up with such a lazy fix as Khan’s blood ‘instacure’ for everything?
The next time someone gets gravely injured or killed and doesn’t get a shot of the juice we will definitely be asking why not. Quite a corner they’ve backed themselves into with this one. All risk has now been removed.

And as to the catwomen thing, well, when Kirk said he was keen on farm animals in ’09 I assumed he was joking! Seem’s not!

437. Gary 8.5 - May 21, 2013

One thing that immeadiately comes to mind Are the fans comments here Tht kirk was promoted too fast.
That was certainly a Amajor as pect of STID’s plot .
I am sure others here have their own examples.
Anyone?

\

438. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 21, 2013

Are you guys trolling or have you a rather shallow understanding of this movie?

I doubt that Khan’s blood is an “instacure” for everything.

Those women weren’t anything like cats or other animals. The only discernible difference between them and other humanoid females is that they had a tail. I guess having a tail makes all the difference…

How do define creatures who do not have tails – like guinea pigs?

439. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@#435Chasco: ”#19 “Bob, you interact with fans occasionally about your films. Do you glean information from those conversations?
Orci: Yeah, absolutely. We interact with them because we like to take in information, good or bad.
==
Uh-huh. Well, that would certainly explain how well they took on board all those comments and poll results after the earlier film, which indicated that the majority of fans did NOT want more Spock/Uhura, did NOT want to ever see Keenser again, did NOT want Kahn revisited, did NOT want the brewery to stand in for engineering…
Yep, they listen to and heed every word the fans say.”

.
.

I don’t know how the polling went or about the rest of them, but they DEFINITELY listened to the little club of people here that hated Spock/Uhura because it got in the way of Kirk/Spock and Kirk/Spock/Bones. The beautiful and amazing couple whose love for each other could conquer all was merely a shell of a shell of a cold corpse far removed from the ghost of what they were in ST09. They couldn’t have a conversation alone, and when they do talk they are either being refereed by Kirk or they are angrily annoyed/confrontational (which doesn’t make any sense). They had almost no contact, to the point of that not even making sense. They had absolutely no development at all. None.

It was VERY clear that this was a film primarily about Kirk (and some of that was ridiculous déjà vu from ST09), and only second to that was his love story with Spock. The triad was in full effect in a few scenes and there are more TOS references and homages (for the TOS Fan in you) that I’m finding out about every day, but the ones I knew of were already a groan at the very least. If they were going to make a film all about Kirk, they could have at least picked up where the last film left off and built from there instead of rehashing the same thing (the quickie promotion) that happened in ST09, but even worse this time (why did Pike have to die?).

They listened, just not to me or to any of the people that wanted something outside of the narrow scope of recreating TOS recast. I understand the importance of remembering the original fans and fans of the original series, I really do, but when it comes at the expense of everything else, even good storytelling…

My only fear now is that if they manage to visit pon farr with Spock in the next film that they reduce Uhura down to a medical treatment for Spock, which would be BEYOND degrading. I can just imagine him telling Kirk and Bones that he’s only doing it because he’ll DIE if he doesn’t, but the sex won’t “mean anything.” /sigh.

@boborci

Any thoughts?

440. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@439. Spock/Uhura Admirer

I can appreciate your frustration with the apparent diminishing of the Spock/Uhura romance in STID. The cynical part of me feels that they deliberately reduced it to make it a smaller target for attack by those who (for various reasons) can be virulent in their opposition to this romance. I think the more likely cause though, it that there was just too much to cram into a 2 and a bit hour movie whose main purpose, after all, is to have Kirk grow up, Spock learn the value of friendship and forge the Enterprise crew into a family.

There are in fact some excellent moments of interaction in the film. I’ve seen it 6 times now, but I have undoubtedly still missed something.

First, the obvious ones: 1. Uhura preparing Spock for the volcano excursion. The closeness and affection is obvious to even the most wilfully blind. 2. The Kirk/Spock/Uhura interaction on the bridge prior to leaving for Qo’noS. I bet just about anyone with a significant other had a grin and a ‘been there’ feeling on watching that interaction. 3. The conversation between Uhura and Spock, and Spock’s confession of his reasons for not wanting to feel, on the Mudd vessel is one of the most moving scenes in the film. 4. The ‘I forgive you’ kiss between Uhura and Spock back on Enterprise. 5. The ‘go get him’ interaction. This signified to me Uhura’s understanding that she can’t stand in the way of Spock’s duty, and Spock’s understanding that Uhura (being Human) needs to realise she is being considered in his decision making process. This seemed to me as Spock saying to Uhura “please understand that I need to do this” and Uhura saying to Spock “ yes I understand” and more than that, it harked back to the Spartan instruction of wives to their husbands going into battle “with your shield, or on it”. Argh, I’m reading too much into that one most likely, but that was what ran through my mind the first time I watched it.
Now, the less obvious ones: 1. When Uhura places her hand on Kirk’s shoulder on the bridge, she then moves to Spock’s position and they clasp hands. The scene is blurred, but definitely there. 2. When Kirk is apologizing to his crew for getting them all killed, Spock moves from his station to stand next to Uhura (bodies touching) as she stands at her station. 3. When Spock asks Uhura if she can contact New Vulcan, he is in her personal space. 4. When Uhura announces she has established contact with New Vulcan, Spock says “on screen, please” to her. He is directly addressing the camera which is standing in for Uhura in this shot. The tone and facial expression are conveying substantial affection. 5. Uhura is sitting next to Spock at the rededication ceremony. Not definitive perhaps, but if they were seated in rank order they would not have been next to each other. As an aside, Marcus is on Uhura’s other side. Perhaps they have become friends in the intervening year. 6. The final scene after Spock defers to Kirk’s judgement regarding destination, he returns to his station. Uhura is standing near it. She smiles at him as he looks at her before she returns to her station.

In conclusion, this relationship is portrayed in a mature fashion and is not shoved down our throats. I am satisfied that, by the end of the movie, the Spock/Uhura relationship is still stable.

The Pon Farr issue is going to be dealt with in the next issue(s) of the IDW comics. We will have to wait to see where they take this. I can think of at least a half dozen ways this could go down – some of them more palatable to me than others. Personally, I hope these two end up bonded so that, by the next movie, it’s done and dusted that they are together, and the movie can concentrate on how the crew (as a crew) deal with whatever circumstance throws at them. If anything, we may see more Kirk/Marcus interaction in the fore, so Spock/Uhura would be very much background, I expect.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents on the subject.

441. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@Obsessivestartrekfan#440

Thank you for your listings. I can only go off of what I recall from seeing the film one time. Personally, I didn’t see any growth in their relationship, but I do understand that this is what was supposed to have happened by film’s end. One thing I can say is that they weren’t singled out in this sense. That was pretty much the case with everything else. Like, how long was Kirk not a captain to learn how to be a better captain? You can argue that simply losing his position is enough to “teach him a lesson,” but I just didn’t see the growth.

Unlike you, I can’t give you any minutely detailed listings of every very subtle half interaction they might have had. To do this, I’d have to watch the film again and actively take notes during. Movies are supposed to be entertainment, not a homework assignment.

In your second to last sentence, you list off another concern I had. Kirk/Marcus or both separately will take over the next film too, coming in only second to the triumvirate that you seem to love and appreciate.

And as you say, Spock/Uhura will be very much so in the background. I don’t read comics, so the comics won’t do me (or your average movie goer) any good.

I don’t have much energy for long replies on this website anymore, so that’s all I have to say.

442. Aurore - May 22, 2013

263.
“Lindelof apologizes for Star Trek Into Darkness underwear scene”
________

Of course…of course….

:)

193. dmduncan – May 21, 2013

Thank you for your post.

Very interesting points.

443. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

I thought that, by the end of the movie, that the Spock/Uhura relationship was simmering along nicely. I really do not understand the griping.

Clearly, people were not paying attention as to why there was confrontation between Uhura and Spock and the fact that Kirk, independently, had his own concerns about Spock’s attitude and behaviour. The conversation between the three of them in the shuttlecraft was a point of resolution and greater understanding developing between those three characters.

I do hope that Jim Kirk does get to form a loving relationship with a woman, very likely Carol Marcus and that this time, in this universe, they (Carol and Jim) both understand that a child needs both parents and that one will not attempt to deny the other access or one abandon the other parent to solo parent status. That is assuming that a little David/Davina is conceived by Carol to Jim. One can only hope.

Kirk drew too many short straws in the other timeline. This time it needs to be different – better!

Spock is doing just fine. He is on a learning curve in this timeline which he did not have in the prime universe. This is good. However, prime Spock appeared asexual much of the time, whereas Kirk has never been that way.

444. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

It simmered along nicely in the background if you didn’t really care much about it, which works because it’s so far in the background. I don’t expect that to be understood, much like I don’t understand triumvirate love, the bromance love, or any of the other things that I’m not that attached to but managed to get real focus in the forefront of the film, not the background.

I paid attention to the fact that her complaint was him going on suicide missions without thinking of her and that he didn’t seem to care. I don’t think that got fully resolved other than him saying that he feels (something she should have already known after how many years with him?). Again, I don’t expect anyone to notice these things if they are not that invested.

Spock was out of character to me in STID. That is not just fine. The wonderful path that was set for him (development-wise) in the last film was not handled well here, but like I said, lack of good development wasn’t just something that happened to Spock and Uhura in STID. Even Zachary said in an interview that they decided to “move Spock in a different direction,” and to me that was more than apparent.

I understand that there are people who like/love and will defend the film. I’m not trying to start an argument, just stating that it was a huge disappointment.

445. Aurore - May 22, 2013

Anthony,

So, you clicked on the link to that article posted on the site a few weeks ago ?!

And you read the posts?! Is that it ?!

:))

Yeah, that was a fascinating thread…and I am NOT talking about my posts….

This very thread is not bad, either, I like it…

:)

446. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

“move Spock in a different direction” does not necessarily mean lack of good development.

Not that invested? I suspect that you are far too invested in how you think the relationship should develop instead of allowing it (which comes down to the writers) to go where it will, wherever that might be.

Sure, Uhura has been with Spock for a couple of years I would guess at this point and had got to know him through the mindmeld he chose to share with her (refer the comics). Then vulcan was destroyed and his mother was killed in front of him – that changed things! According to the writers, I believe that this film takes place about six months after that devastating event, so Spock is still in grief mode and is stoically trying to carry on as any good vulcan should…except…

Uhura’s concern about his behaviour (something Kirk shares) occurs after the destruction of his world and death of his mother. Spock is no longer as forthcoming as before, partly because he is still in some shock and is grieving…he finally opens up to Uhura and Kirk on the shuttlecraft, which is a big step forward for him. He also comes to realize that Kirk can also be a good friend and that both Kirk and Uhura care about him in their own unique ways. Uhura is the romance; Kirk is the bromance. Romance and bromance do not have to be mutually exclusive. Get it?

It’s all good!

447. Ashley - May 22, 2013

@boborci

Some things I’d like to see/hear in the next movie.

-A briefing room scene with the senior officers.
-Another Constitution-class starship.
-More aliens and alien planets, especially some really off-the-wall bizarre looking places.
-23rd century cultural references (always hated when all references to literature, music, etc. were limited to the 20th century >.< ).
-Deep space, as Kirk had mentioned in STID. To me, one of the best things about the original Star Trek was that they were explorers and space cowboys, strapped to highly volatile and ridiculously fast engines, hurtling through the blackness of space to experience the unknown.
-Legitimate affection from Kirk for his ship. I can see hints of it, but I'd rather see Kirk treat her like a lady rather than a cool toy that he won. Then again I suppose Kirk would have to respect women more first.. I feel he's on the path towards all this, so hopefully we really see him mature. I think this would help the ship too, as she doesn't really seem to have as much character as her previous incarnations. ST3 when Kirk destroys the ship, you know he's devastated, as is everyone else watching. This KIrk? I can see him being really bummed out but already wondering how and when they'll give him some other ship. BSG handled this really well too. When Colonel Tigh says 'She's broke her back, she'll never jump again.' Total lump-in-my-throat moment. Galactica was as much a character as anyone else and I don't feel that with this Enterprise.

In any case, can we at least have a more character-driven movie? And maybe some mystery and adventure rather than mostly action? At least have a better balance next time. Again, BSG handled this well, mixing action with some great drama and characters. I've watched STID again and I've been able to reason out most of my previous issues with it, but I still feel one of it's biggest flaws is that it had more plot than story, which kept it moving along at a brisk pace from action scene to action scene. Don't get me wrong, I did notice and appreciate all the character-centered moments but overall I think a lot of it got drowned out and pushed aside by the action.

448. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

Sometimes I think posting here is futile. I understand all of that. It just wasn’t handled well for the most part. And no, I’m not “too invested” in these 2 characters to see that their story didn’t logically play out well. Like I said, there are other characters that suffered the same fate that I’m not that attached to.

In fact, it would be better if I were one of those super-shippers that sees everything through rose colored glasses because then any hint of a subtle interaction between my “OTP”, regardless of intent, would be OMG-OMG-there-it-is-do-you-see-it-it’s-SO-there-they’re-in-LOVE. I don’t operate like that. I respond to what’s there, and not to what I want to see.

“(refer the comics). “

Please read Post#441. Maybe that’s one of the problems with this film. Perhaps they expect everyone to do their homework and read all of the comics before it comes out for it to make sense. Comics may be an automatic thing for the trekkers, but everybody (read: most ticket purchasers). Most people are not trekkers.

And frankly, if a movie needs propping up by reading a series of comics in the years leading to its debut, then it’s already failed somehow.

“Get it?”

Thank you for reminding me that this is Trekmovie.com.

449. ObsessiveSTarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@444. Spock/Uhura Admirer
“It simmered along nicely in the background if you didn’t really care much about it…”

Yeesh! I feel like Spock having to give his speech in Mudd’s vessel…

Please do not mistake my not donning sackcloth and ashes over how the Spock/Uhura romance got short changed in the movie for NOT CARING about it.

I have been a Spock fan since 1966. When ST09 came out and put Spock & Uhura together, I was ecstatic about it. I still am. I am however, cognisant of the fact that many appear to object to this pairing, for various reasons. As a defence mechanism, if you will, I try not to expect too much from the movies on this score, so that hopefully I will only be disappointed rather than gutted if the ‘supreme court’ decide their little experiment has gone on long enough and end it.

Did I want to see more Spock/Uhura interaction in STID? Of course, I did. However, within the confines of the 2 and a bit hours, I got enough to satisfy me that all is well with them by the end of the movie. This is a Star Trek movie, after all, not Twilight. I want authentic Star Trek. I also want Spock and Uhura to be together within that framework. I believe it can be done.

STID is so far underperforming in the female and under 25 demographic. Perhaps putting more Spock/Uhura and/or Kirk/Marcus romance front and centre would attract a larger female audience to the Trek universe; perhaps all that would happen is that the male audience (and that part of the female audience which chooses to see an iconic bromance as a romance) would abandon it in droves. I don’t know the answer.

450. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

I’m sorry, this should read:

Please read Post#441. Maybe that’s one of the problems with this film. Perhaps they expect everyone to do their homework and read all of the comics before the movie comes out for it to make sense. Comics may be an automatic thing for the trekkers, but noteverybody (read: most ticket purchasers). Most people are not trekkers.

I think I’m done posting for a while. I’ll check back to see if boborci responds, and if not, well then at least I know I asked.

451. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@ObsessiveStarTrekFan

Thank you for your response. I’ve already thoroughly discussed the “Twilight” thing with some of the more hostile posters here for the better part of a year, so please don’t take me not responding to that or any other part of your post as not appreciating what you have to say. I’m just tired.

452. Chris H - May 22, 2013

@419 – Karen, I just wanted to say how much I have agreed with and nodded at your comments here. You have amazing tenacity and patience!

453. Aurore - May 22, 2013

@ The management

I am better at annoying…

I was being a pest @ 445 ; I am sincerely sorry.

The post that vanished was about what I believe (perhaps wrongly) is going on and, I don’t like what is going on.

But, I don’t dislike this site…

:)

454. Mal - May 22, 2013

God lord. We do NOT need more Spock/Uhura scenes. If that stupid relationship has to be there keep it like it was in STID..to a minimum. Even the polls show we don’t want more romance. You S/U fangirls can wish it all you want, but ST is not about Spock and his issues with his girlfriend. I don’t see the relationship as all that mature, considering how unprofessional they were on the shuttle to Kronos. Try to defend it all you want, but she really should have not brought that up. When I saw it in the theater I was like “really?” And from the head shakes of the people around me, I knew I wasn’t alone. Most fans don’t care about Spock and Uhura as a couple, it’s in the background for a reason

“The beautiful and amazing couple whose love for each other could conquer all..”

LOL wow. Really? I think it’s time for someone to go back to their fanfiction.

455. Rick - May 22, 2013

I see the fans of the Spock and Uhura relationship are at it again..all 12 of them! Lol

Seriously though, we don’t need any more of that relationship. What we got in this movie was fine. Just enough to see them grow if you actually care about their issues, but not focused on too much if you don’t. And judging by the polls, most do not.

I’m sure some certain fans would have wanted the movie to revolve around them because “oh my god they are SOOO in love why can’t we see them kissing more?!” Because this is Star Trek. It’s about Kirk and Spock.

Some of these posts are hilarious, but I fully expect the relationship to stay in the background, where it belongs.

456. see sci-FI - May 22, 2013

@434 @440 and Chasco

I actually don’t think they diminished the relationship in fact I would say that the relationship was much better in this film. Most fans complained that uhura did nothing than just the girl friend in the first film. which was true

In this second film the s/u story was much better and authentic it wasn’t the first where it was basally just kissing and smooching there was actually some legitimacy to the relationship in the second film.

she gets into a fight with him because she think he doesn’t care, they make up and then she gives him his blessing to take down the bad guy despite her knowing he could die and she saves him in the end. they also get two scenes together with no dialogue the first at pike’s funeral and the background smile in the final scene on the ship.

Considering that the s/u story is a secondary subplot I will say the writers wrote it better than the first film.

I have read lots lots of comments about the relationships of the whole film and I will say that the kirk/spoCk friendship was the least authentic in the film because Kirk and spock have barely known each other there was no need for the wrath of khan rehash and rip off.

TOS Kirk and Spock had earned their relationship of friendship,love and loyalty over 20 plus years.

Nu Kirk and Nu Spock were friends for less than a year. ( even hating each other 6 months prior to that) …the khan copy story was one of the weakest pats of STiD.

I loved bones and carol relationship and the kirk and scotty relationship. I will say those were my favorite relationships in the entire film.

there are fans calling for bones and carol to hook up but I don’t think that will ever happen.

457. Mad Mann - May 22, 2013

OK, I’ll chime in. Some things I would like to see in the next movie:

—A finite conclusion to the Spock/Uhura relationship. Don’t sweep it under the rug, but rather make it main plot line but just end it. Maybe tie it in with Pon Farr somehow.
—Kirk’s love for Enterprise. For example: Elaan of Troius. In that episode, it was Kirk’s love for his ship that snapped him out of Elaan’s “love potion” tears. I’d like to see Kirk get into a relationship, maybe Carol Marcus, but ends up breaking it because the Enterprise comes first. It would be tragic, but important.
—Have the opening action scene be based on a TOS episode. I know that you are following the Indianna Jones and James Bond tradition of doing a ten-minute mini-adventure in the beginning of the movie, and that would be a perfect way to throw in the TOS references. Maybe Journey to Babel (a great place to showcase a ton of aliens, Catina-style) or Doomsday Machine, or even Trouble With Tribbles. I can imagine an awesome opening set-piece of the Deep Space Station K-7 falling into a gas giant planet and the Enterprise has to grapple it and pull it free.
–NO MORE “WRATH OF KHAN!!!” Enough with the movie already, yeah it was the best Trek, but please no more references to that movie. You referenced it in both of your movies, so STOP IT NOW!
—Deep Space exploration
–Klingons!! And: Kor!!!!! Just make the Klingons less like the TNG-viking versions and more like the TOS versions.
—A lot more spaceships!

458. Aurore - May 22, 2013

Will there be a thread about DamOn’s “apology”, I wonder?

If such is the case, I ‘ll be careful with my links…I “promise”!

:))

459. Becca - May 22, 2013

@444-

Spock was out of character? Your opinion. I thought he was very much in character. I know you are a S/U fan (obviously) but your obsession with the relationship is getting in the way of seeing that this was a great movie for Spock and how his character is growing. Just because he wasn’t declaring love to Uhura or trying to kiss her doesn’t mean they are moving his character in a different direct direction. As much as you won’t like to hear it I’m sure, fact is the most important and meaningful relationship in ST and to Spock himself, is the one Kirk and Spock share. Always has been, always will be.

Alternate universe or no, that’s one thing you can’t change. This film shows them coming together beautifully. Uhura will be there, and maybe the S/U thing will still be there too, but as a subplot, which it very much is. I am one of those people that could do without the relationship, but since it still seems to be there the way they handled it was pretty good. Except that dumb couples fight on the shuttle, but I know that was just a shortcut to getting a scene where Spock can address his feelings to them. Other than that it was just fine.

I’m more concerned about getting more scenes with Uhura finally showing she’s useful for more than transporter kisses (like speaking Klingon! Hell yea!) than any issues she might have with her boyfriend. There are some movies that romance is very important and necessary, ST just isn’t one of them.

460. Bell - May 22, 2013

@456- Spock didn’t look at her to get her “blessing” , the man was gonna tear after Khan not matter what she said. He looked to her because after that shuttle discussion he doesn’t want her to feel bad about him going off on another maybe suicide mission. That he looked at her shows he remembers what she said. Not that she would, but if she had said “don’t you dare go” he would have just given her the classic Vulcan bitch-face and gone anyways lol that dude was WORKED UP.

461. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

One thing I got from the novelization is just how awesome Uhura is as a communications officer as well. Those calls to Scotty and New Vulcan don’t just happen, you know. However, that’s the sort of thing it is easier to write about than to actually show in a movie.

462. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

“Kirk’s love for Enterprise. For example: Elaan of Troius. In that episode, it was Kirk’s love for his ship that snapped him out of Elaan’s “love potion” tears. I’d like to see Kirk get into a relationship, maybe Carol Marcus, but ends up breaking it because the Enterprise comes first. It would be tragic, but important.”

NO WAY! That is what was a bit nauseating in TOS – Kirk’s love for the Enterprise. It turned him into a pathetic, lonely objectiphile. How could you even compare a full on relationship with someone like Carol Marcus with that of Elaan of Troyius who had to trick him into “loving” her?

And the other bit – that the Kirk/Spock so-called bromance is so much more important than any romance. No, it is not and should it be. They do not need to be mutually exclusive nor should they be.

So we can look to a future where men are into bromance and/or some form of objectiphilia. I hate it when the Enterprise is referred to as his mistress or that he is “married to the Enterprise”. It is sick. Neither the Enterprise nor Starfleet are a flesh and blood woman nor can be considered acceptable substitutes.
So disgustingly patriarchal and misogynistic…UGH!

463. myTrek - May 22, 2013

I remember an article couple of years back at the time of discussing the villain for the second movie. It stated that the writers are thinking about various options and one such is the villain wherein it is not a human villain or an alien but the space(dangers in space) or a phenomenon or nature itself which the crew encounters and battles…. that i thought would be on the lines of Trek we know (science and exploration).
I wish it had materialized and i can only hope the third movie has such villain.
Lens flares, action sequences, gimmicks are important for commercials but it should support a solid story

464. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

S/U Admirer – BTW – I can’t just pop down the road to pick up the latest Star Trek comic. Now I find the closest place where I MIGHT be able to get any copies is 400 miles away.

Trekmovie have posted parts of the comic stories as they have been published and that is how I know about Spock choosing to share himself by doing a mindmeld with her.

Then again, I did not have to read that to understand what was going on in the movie. I am surprised that you did not pick up the full import of what was being talked about in the shuttlecraft scene.

465. cpelc - May 22, 2013

Question for those people unhappy about what they call “magic blood” saving the day….

Please explain to me how essentially a bomb that jumpstarts evolution from atoms and elements can (after the process is already mostly complete and a planet formed) take a dead body, somehow reverse age it down to an infant? [because it can't be an embryo outside of a womb] and then have it age back into exactly the same person?

To me antibodies or supercells that kickstart someones heart and fight off radiation poisoning sounds a lot more plausible.

466. Geek Girl - May 22, 2013

I can finally get the novel tomorrow yay. Actually I could have bought it the other day from one of the bookshops, but would rather buy it from the nice guy who owns the other store. As long as it’s too pricey…

467. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

ObsessiveStarTrekFan, I thank you for your post describing the S/U scenes…very well thought out and written.

I, like you said, started from a very cynical place, thinking it was some way of appeasing the people that were threatening to jump off bridges because of the S/U relationship in the first one. But, after calming down, reading posts and blogs similar to yours, I have made my peace with the movie.

Now, people like us (Chris Pine pun hehe) get it. Some people understand subtleties. I hate to bring in other franchises, but it is like the Potter movies with Ron and Hermione, people saying it came out of nowhere, when there were signs from the very first movie, definitely the second movie, if you know how to look for them, If you understood subtle romance, you got it. But, many people don’t.

And, I think I was less concerned about the lack of STID S/U scenes, but when it was coupled with over-the-top, in your face K/S scenes, then it became an issue. Because a large amount of the population only goes with what is completely blatant, and instead of seeing it as what it was, a friendship, they turn it into something completely different. But, I guess you cannot control how other people interpret things.

My main issue with the movie was Spock crying over Kirk. It has been suggested to me that it was likely a culmination of things, the straw that broke the camel’s back. It just made no sense to me for Spock to cry over someone he knew for 6 months and didn’t get along with half the time, when he didn’t even cry over his mother whom he adored and knew his entire life. I just couldn’t buy it. Perhaps the novelization or the DVD commentary will clear up Spock’s thought process during this scene.

My second main issue is that there are people like myself, like you, like others here that have defended the reboot tooth and nail, defending TPTB’s choices, defended the new timeline, defended the characters’ different traits due to the new timeline to a certain segment of the fandom who felt the need to be nasty to the characters, the the actors (or more specifically actress) portraying those characters, and nasty to the crew that worked so hard to bring us a new ST franchise…..and ultimately, these people got exactly what they wanted all along. When, honestly, they deserve nothing for the way they behaved.

468. 2ndGenTrekFan - May 22, 2013

Ok, something I don’t understand. Why all the hate for this film? Yeah, it had several flares from TWOK to it. Some of the dialogue was the same even. But to have a negative opinion about points of the film is natural. Everyone has a different opinion. But to talk smack about parts of a movie that first and foremost, was done by imperfect humans like the rest of us, don’t you think that perhaps some of them, or maybe even all of them for all I know might look back and say, man…I wish I could have done that different. Or I wish that would have been better. I don’t feel like for two seconds that the filmmakers and staff behind this film didn’t pour 110% into every single second of it. Sure, it’s going to have things some people don’t like, but that doesn’t mean they should bash it outright like immature brats. To say you don’t care for it is just honesty.

My OPINION however is different from that. Sure, there are things I wanted to see different. I feel Uhura’s character was more or less placed in alot of scenes just to be there. Maybe that wasn’t the intention of the filmmakers, maybe it was. I don’t care. It didn’t damage the movie for me.

As for the acting: I was beyond impressed with the acting in this film. Especially from Pine and Cumberbatch. Cumberbatch really injected so much more evil and deviance into the role and I loved it. He made me believe he was actually right more than a couple times, and I KNEW he was playing Kirk.

I enjoyed the action sequences very much, although I do sort of wish that the Enterprise had at least popped off a few torpedoes or something before being beaten half to death.

Overall, i’d give the movie an A- or B+. Very well done overall!

469. see sci-FI - May 22, 2013

459. Becca – May 22, 2013

omg…faceplam .

star trek is becoming more like twilight with all the ship wars going on.

I have heard of the out of character scene before, a lot of K/S fans who write them as sexual lovers said the Spock was out of character in the first film for kissing uhura at the transporter scene which happens to be a very public place and now the same K/S fans are saying that spock was not out of character of wanting to tear khan apart after the death of kirk.

bottomline is both scene were out of character……Spock did not even shed a tear for his mother and the loss of vulcan there is no reason he needed to go way over the top after Kirk’s death considering the fact that they have not even know each other for long.

Unless the K/S fans will say that spock loved kirk more than planet vulacn and his mother.

In the 2009 scene there was no need for spock to kiss uhura in a very public place when both had a job to do
.
I guess most of the shippers of S/U and K/S will legitimacy defend a not so great scene when it IS fitting to their fan base.

And Rick is right..Star trek is not about romance, its like lord of the rings the main relationship in lord of the rings had to do with the fellowship of the ring and not about aragon/arwen. Same goes for trek…it’s all about kirk and spock …uhura and carol and the hot alien chicks kirk bangs are secondary.

However I am not happy with the nurse chapel reference..I hate the fact that kirk had sex with her in this timeline.

so stop with all the ship wars…

470. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@465. cpelc

Excellent point. Extrapolating from that, where and how does said infant find the sustenance to support the super-metabolism required for such rapid growth? The whole genesis device concept is arrant nonsense, but I’m pretty sure we suspended disbelief and enjoyed them when we first saw ST:TWOK & ST:TSSF.

I dare say no Star Trek movie is blameless in this regard. If people get too hung up on these things – well, that way lies madness…

Enjoy the movie for what it is. If people can’t pick it apart without getting upset with it, then they shouldn’t pick it apart at all.

471. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

“I will say that the Kirk/Spock friendship was the least authentic in the film because Kirk and Spock have barely known each other there was no need for the wrath of khan rehash and rip off.

TOS Kirk and Spock had earned their relationship of friendship,love and loyalty over 20 plus years.”

If only people would stop basing everything they see on what they know about the prime TOS universe and actually watch and listen to what is being told in THIS movie, Star Trek Into Darkness.

First of all, earlier, after Kirk loses his command, Spock is reassigned to another ship and Kirk actually tells Spock, despite the report that Spock wrote, that he (Kirk) will miss him. It would appear that the friendship/connection has already begun, at least, for Kirk.

Kirk is concerned, as well as angry, with Spock. This gets discussed briefly in the turbolift with Uhura.

The discussion on the shuttlecraft reveals to Spock that people care about him and are concerned – Uhura and Kirk. The fact that Kirk risked his own career prospects in order to save Spock from the volcano no doubt registered as well.

By the time, Spock discovers Kirk dying of radiation poisoning but is unable to do anything to save him, unlike Kirk, Spock breaks down and screams Khan, the one responsible for Kirk’s demise. Why is it so difficult for people to grasp the notion that this scream was the scream of ultimate pain and frustration – he had lost his planet, his mother and now someone who had saved his life, his own captain?

472. USSEXETER - May 22, 2013

@425 Amen!

473. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

And of course, the comments flow in. Here goes. I’ll be as brief as possible.

@#456 ”Most fans complained that uhura did nothing than just the girl friend in the first film. which was true”

First off, it’s not true. And second, that’s the problem. They listened too much to “the fans,” or rather a certain “fan group” or two. I’m not saying don’t pay attention, but when your whole movie is derailed by TOS fan service, there’s a problem. And I’m not the only one saying this.

”In this second film the s/u story was much better and authentic it wasn’t the first where it was basally just kissing and smooching there was actually some legitimacy to the relationship in the second film.”

If you really think that all that was happening between them was “kissing and smooching,” then I think you missed quite a bit about what was really happening there. The story in the second film was not better, imo. The issues brought up weren’t really resolved and some of it didn’t even make sense.

.

@454 ”LOL wow. Really? I think it’s time for someone to go back to their fanfiction.”

Yes, really, but not in the literal sense. You’ve never heard that phrase before? It’s quite a popular one, but never mind; I’ll guess the answer is no.

People can and do often grow through relationships. I’m just lovin’ the hypocrisy here because much of the clique that resides here absolutely LOVES and NEEDS their Kirk/Spock love story/bromance because that relationship is so, so important, so much so, that even Spock’s own mother dying and the destruction of his home world didn’t get the same reaction as Kirk, the guy he just started getting along with, when he chose to sacrifice himself. You’re laughing at me, but dude, I’m laughing right back because it makes no sense.

On the fanfic note, there is really good writer that has done some really good writing for them as a side hobby. And here’s the shocker for you, ~95% of what she writes isn’t love scenes. I know, take a breath.

.

@#459Spock was out of character? Your opinion. I thought he was very much in character. I know you are a S/U fan (obviously) but your obsession with the relationship is getting in the way of seeing that this was a great movie for Spock and how his character is growing.

I’m not obsessed. This is a “trek movie” website, and so when I’m here I talk about what I like most about the trek movie(s), much like everyone else. It’s just that other so-called “obsessions” here are quite the norm and acceptable. That’s very interesting to me.

“In character” is your opinion, Becca. He is almost nothing like the character I came to know in the first film. If they wanted to show that the destruction of Vulcan changed him, okay, then show it. That didn’t really happen. One thing I liked about IM3 was that at least Tony realized that he had some problems and some issues to work through. We actually got to see how what I’m guessing is a mild PTSD was affecting him, and therefore Pepper. Did it take half the movie to show that? No. Was he still friends with Rhodey and go out to battle with him? Yes. Also, the movie ended with at least me feeling like all that was really dealt with. Concluded? No, but it was dealt with in an ongoing fashion that felt like a few steps were taken.

It’s a sad day when Star Trek could learn a lesson from Iron Man about how to tell a story concerning the human (or human/Vulcan hybrid) condition.

.

@#464

I understand the full importance. Do you understand that it was never really resolved or dealt with? It just wasn’t handled well. It worked out kind of okay, because the issue was brought up and acknowledged, but nothing was really done after that. I’m trying to be brief, so I’m not going to give a blow-by-blow run down of why the way that scene played out, and it having no follow-up, has some issues.

Which leads to….

@#460Bell: ”@456- Spock didn’t look at her to get her “blessing” , the man was gonna tear after Khan not matter what she said. He looked to her because after that shuttle discussion he doesn’t want her to feel bad about him going off on another maybe suicide mission. That he looked at her shows he remembers what she said. Not that she would, but if she had said “don’t you dare go” he would have just given her the classic Vulcan bitch-face and gone anyways lol that dude was WORKED UP.”

Thank you for acknowledging the fact that the issues Uhura brought up to Spock weren’t really dealt with at all.

474. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@471. Keachick – rose pinenut

Yes, indeed. The approriate saying is “the straw that broke the camel’s back”. I may not have liked the scream that much, but I have no problem with the validity of either Spock’s tears or the scream itself at that point.

475. Barney - May 22, 2013

Why are the Spock and Uhura fans so mad….S/U had nearly the exact same screen time like the first film and you people should be happy.

Uhura does save Spock at the end….. that is way more romantic than the constant kissing in public places when they have jobs to do.

476. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@#469 “I have heard of the out of character scene before, a lot of K/S fans who write them as sexual lovers said the Spock was out of character in the first film for kissing uhura at the transporter scene which happens to be a very public place and now the same K/S fans are saying that spock was not out of character of wanting to tear khan apart after the death of kirk.”

If we are talking about THIS Spock, the transporter scene, which wasn’t public, was in character for THIS Spock. The bromance love story cry of “Khaaan!” was not in character for someone that didn’t have that deep a connection with Kirk.

477. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@471

I see what you are saying. I don’t agree with it, but I see what you are saying.

For me, the most poignant parts of the first film were when we see Spock wrestling with his emotions, but ultimately reining them in. It’s not that he doesn’t have them. But to see his human and Vulcan sides having some sort of internal battle within him…to me, those were the best moments.

Again, with this one, I appreciated the Pike death scene more. Pike was a mentor and friend to Spock long before Kirk came along. And, in the death scene, Spock keeps it composed. We can see a tiny twitch of the face, and we know that he cares…but his ability to not lose it is remarkable.

Yes, Kirk and Spock are forging a friendship. Yes, there are some moments when they care for each other. There are other moments when they…don’t. I just don’t believe that their (platonic) feelings for each other would get to the place in six months that he would be openly weeping for HIM.

Again, I can buy the “straw that broke the camel’s back” argument. The argument that it was all for Kirk and that Spock cares for Kirk as much or more than his planet and mother? Nope, wouldn’t buy that for a nickel.

478. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

If your not a fan of 70′s sci fi you might want to skip this post….

1973 gives us Soylent Green there was some uproar about a scene where women were referred to as “furniture” (serving as a household concubine). Set in the year 2022 ( I think) over popultion is rampant. And people are being…..well, people. Back in the day as far as the public was concerned the “star” was the movie ….so Charlton Heston (pre NRA) was the brunt of this I think the statement was directed at Gloria Steinham ” if you think at the time of a global apocolypse thar people ( both men and women) won ‘t sell anything they have to survive you’re crazy”…..It was just different times. Imagine doing that scene in todays cinema.

The scene in STID could easily be edited out although the glimpse between Kirk and Marcus at the end is kind of foreshadowed by it.There is definetly an attraction between the two. Was it Shatner who said that the “T” in James T. Kirk stood for “tomcat” ?

************spoiler**************

SOYLENT GREEN is people

479. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

#469 – Hey, this is actually the first time that the nature of the Spock/Uhura relationship in this film has been discussed at all. This is hardly a Twilight site. Discussion of romance in Star Trek is as legitimate as the continuous talk about the Kirk/Spock relationship or the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship which has gone on for nearly 50 years.

I think it is about time the topic/discussion record got changed – to a full blown romance between two important characters.

Oh look – Carol and anybody Kirk might “bang” are not significant at all nor should they be accorded any screen time or character development in their own right. This is just the type of crap attitude that lots of people like me are totally fed up with. The poster cannot even say – Kirk has intercourse with or makes love to or is intimate with – he just bangs them. These women are just mere sex objects to be banged.

Holy crap!

480. George Henry - May 22, 2013

I have just watched it again, can someone explain how Kirk contacts Scotty on Earth with his communicator, while he Klingon space

481. Aurore - May 22, 2013

When Damon Lindelof is being asked about Miss Eve’s underwear, I listen to what he says, of course. I am interested in what he has to say.

But, I also notice that he is not being asked.. other important questions.

I myself wasn’t bothered by the underwear shot. At all. Nevertheless, I do understand the fact that some people might be.

However, next time someone asks him about this underwear scene, I hope that they will also ask him about what I personally see as an other issue worth being discussed ; Khan Noonien Singh’s apparent new ethnicity.

I would have loved to hear Damon Lindelof’s opinion on that…as well.

I wrote this post feeling that he might be deleted.
Should this happen, you ( the management ) will know where I stand.

482. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

Spock is not just weeping or screaming because he sees Kirk dying and I never thought it was just about that. The connection is there but it is not that strong but it had the potential, which I think that Spock had become aware of. The scream was the result of a whole combination of factors/events, beginning the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his mother.

As I said before, Spock was stoically and meticulously trying to carry on being a good Vulcan and do his job in a professional manner until…the sight of seeing the man who had saved his life was dying and Spock was helpless.

483. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@480. George Henry

Because Uhura is awesome ;-)

484. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

Alright, I do have a question that I would love people’s opinions on, and I am not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely am confused.

Spock’s speech in the Mudd ship. It was touching, don’t get me wrong. I found it very sweet. I don’t think I really get it though. It goes against the K/SP mind meld in the first one, when Kirk asks, “So you do feel?” I thought that was their way of showing people (who didn’t already understand) that Vulcans were not emotionless, that they DO feel, but that it is a matter of suppressing those emotions. Sarek says it at the beginning of the film. Emotions run deeply within their race.

So….I did not think that “feeling” for a Vulcan was necessarily a choice. You can choose to undergo Kohlinar. And, you can choose to control your emotions. But, you can’t CHOOSE to feel. Am I wrong, here? Because, Spock kept talking about choosing not to feel, and again, I didn’t think you could choose not to feel, it was just a matter of choosing how to deal with the feelings. He went on to say he chose to never feel those emotions from the destruction of Vulcan again. He’s half-human; how is that possible?

Also, I know I may just be a dumb-dumb here, but when he said his choice to not feel isn’t a reflection of not caring, but precisely the opposite. He cares (which is a feeling) so he doesn’t feel? Is the point that he feels SO much and SO strongly, that he has to not feel, because if he did, he would explode?

I’d love some insight here. Not being purposefully obtuse.

485. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

Meant to also include Spock not being able to do much to save Pike’s life, just held him as he died…

486. denny cranium - May 22, 2013

Well, finally saw the film Monday afternoon with my girl.
Mr. Orci and company? All I can say is: for shame!
First of all, I really wanted to like this movie. I really did.
Yes, the film had a few good moments, but it just didn’t feel like Star Trek to me.
Where I take issue with your movie: It just went “clunk” too many times.
Kirk wasn’t in command of his ship and situation at times. In the turbolift with Uhura and he’s talking about ripping the bangs off of Spock I just don’t feel he would reveal his frustration to a crew member. When he asked Uhura what it’s like to be fighting with Spock, it was just too much Star Trek 90210 for me.
When Spock and Uhura got into their dispute on the ship on their way to Kronos? When Kirk started to object, the argument should have stopped then and there.
In the firefight on Kronos the scenes with Khan kicking ass went on too long. It was gratuitous and too much filler for me. When Khan defeated the first wave of Klingons that was enough. When the second wave dropped in I went okay, Khan can kick ass. Enough already.
Also, when Uhura presented her solution to Kirk on Kronos it felt like she was in command, not Kirk. If Spock presented the option I feel it would have played better.
And quoting lines from Twok? Come on, really?
I didn’t just groan in your film I’m going to groan when I watch Twok again.
Spock’s “khaaan! ” was flat out lame.
In Kirk’s death scene where he admits that he’s scared? Totally out of character. For a captain who’s jumped off of platforms and endured radiation, I don’t think he fears death or if he did, he wouldn’t admit it.
There were also too many repeated stunts in this film done in the last one.
I think it’s time for new blood to write the next one.
Maybe Manny Coto can be dragged away from Dexter.

487. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

Just curious as to the general cocensus amongst this group…….is Spock-Uhura at a sexual level ? It’s intensity and depth may well be beyond that,but has it been consumated.?

I know everyone here doesn’t like Big Bang Theory but I’d love to see their take on it in relation to Sheldon and Amy.

………..and the gas goes on the fire……..

488. JoannaD - May 22, 2013

Haven’t read all the comments so I may be repetitive. Saw teh movie Tuesday. Since the original Trek started airing when I was 12, I had such a sense of deja vue. I liked Benedict as the villain, but was a bit disappointed when they went with Kahn. The daughter was stressed a tad by the dramatic moments, but we were all ‘been there, done that’. Not that it wasn’t enjoyable, but I was hoping for more creative content. The end bit went straight to my baby boomer heart and I left the movie with a happy mood. The offspring didn’t get that. All in all, a good movie that was far too derivative. With all of the so-called creative ability, I would have thought they would have done better plot-wise.

489. see sci-FI - May 22, 2013

460. Bell – May 22, 2013
@456- Spock didn’t look at her to get her “blessing” ,

————————————————————————————————–

It was more of a blessing…..remember the finale of Spider man 2 when peter had to leave mary jane to go off and fight the bad guys…peter knew MJ was sad about that because he always had to leave her or not take into account her feelings but peter just like Spock had no choice but to go out and take down the bad guy and mary jane used the same exact words like uhura used.

”go get him”. or in mary Jane’s case ”go get him tiger”

Many of the times when you give someone their blessing its because you hate what they want to do but you have to let them do it.

490. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@487

I don’t think you needed to bring Sheldon and Amy into this, as Sheldon and Amy are not Spock and Uhura and Sheldon and Amy are not even LIKE Spock and Uhura.

Yes, they are at a sexual level, in my ever so humble opinion. It is shown in the comics, and while I know that the comics are not exactly 100% canon, they are as close to canon as one can get outside of the movies.

So, I would say yes, they have consummated their relationship, er, sexually.

491. SamwiseVT - May 22, 2013

So Michael Giacchino snuck a theme from classic TOS into “Into Darkness.” It is only 8 bars, but you can def hear it during “The San Fran Hustle” track @ 1:55 (it’s the classic fight theme)

492. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@487. porthoses bitch

If you go by the IDW comics, then yes. Unless you are of the opion that Spock and Uhura had shared a bed with Spock only in boxers and Uhura having at least the top half bare (implied by the way she was holding the sheet), and not been intimate… The referring comic is Ongoing #6 (I think) – Operation Annihilate part 2.

493. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

#484 – He chooses not to think about or dwell on those events and the feelings that evidently arise. It is likely that Vulcans handle their PSTD in a slightly different way. It is also possible that this Spock has also studied some Vulcan meditation in order to help control and suppress emotions and has been doing some. Prime Spock in the TV TOS series regularly meditated…Uhura has been trying to help him cope, because she is aware of difficulties that he won’t/can’t admit to but she is frustrated, especially when he seems keen to risk his life (unnecessarily).

“Is the point that he feels SO much and SO strongly, that he has to not feel, because if he did, he would explode?”

Yes, I think that is it, exactly. When Kirk dies, he can no longer hold it in – he explodes – screams and cries.

I don’t know why some would expect Spock’s particular emotional problems (some of which must stem from him being vulcan/human hybrid) could be dealt with/solved in the same way as those of the 21st century human Tony Stark.

494. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

What Spock/Uhura we got was sweet and there was definite love and affection between them. In the context of the plot I am not sure how you could have put more S/U in because it was most definitely Kirk’s movie and it was so action packed there wasn’t really time to stop and show Spock/Uhura in domestic bliss or whatever. I am hopeful though that next time around we will get more Spock/Uhura development because it was somewhat lacking for my shipper’s heart. It just….needs to be a genuine thing and not a pon farr necessity or having Uhura portrayed as the nagging spouse. (Though I think you could quite amusingly portray Spock as a nagging spouse). It doesn’t even have to be THAT much, just a silly scene with Kirk walking into a room and hearing some feminine giggling and murmuring voices and seeing two sets of legs sticking out from under the comms array. When they become aware of his presence the pair of them are all like coughcoughcough straightening up and trying to pretend that nothing was happening and Spock giving Kirk some crap about how he was assisting Lt Uhura as she soldered some circuits or something and Kirk smirking and being all ‘whatever you say Spock’. Srsly Bob, that’s all you’d need to keep the S/U people happy. That or of course Spock going totally nuts with pon farr and growing a beard and his hair getting mussed and looking fiiine as he goes around suus mahna-ing everyone left right and center and dragging Ny off into some cave somewhere and Kirk and Co are like OMG WHERE THE HELL ARE SPOCK AND UHURA we need to get going because of ~insert plot here~. Tho you know everyone would love to see ZQ and ZS in their undies and/or smooching on eachother. Hell, have Kirk stuck in the cave with them, also in his underwear, while the pair are consumed by the lustful frenzy of pon farr. BWAHAHAHAHA.

495. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

Sheldon and Amy are probaly more like Spock and Chapel… and Sheldon is still Struggling with Quinto -Spock.

I have some issues regarding the comics as canon. (Pun not intended). My take on canon is that you can’t pick and choose what’s canon and what’s not. TAS is a definite example of this (love Yesteryear, but Terratin incident ?). My line of thought on the comics is that they are canon unto themselves.

496. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@479 Keachick,
“These women are just mere sex objects to be banged. Holy crap!”

You seem surprised that a man would think this way about Star Trek, when you yourself have been defending the anonymous “cat women” threesome scene.

Kirk has always suffered from the misconception that he was a James Bond love ‘em an leave ‘em type despite the impeccable handling by writers of his character in this regard for almost 50 years. So why is that? Since it’s clearly not the intent of most if not all of the writers and scripts … And why is it men tend to think this way in the absence of any other explanation? Is it because they have bad mothers who teach them all women are sex objects? Or is it perhaps some other outside influences, oh say the movies and TV they watch?

Seriously, how do you explain this popular misconception about Kirk?

497. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

“I don’t know why some would expect Spock’s particular emotional problems (some of which must stem from him being vulcan/human hybrid) could be dealt with/solved in the same way as those of the 21st century human Tony Stark.”

And thinking that is missing the point… entirely.

498. jeffman1701 - May 22, 2013

My apologies to trekmademewonder it was not my intent to make you quit posting, You are certainly entitled to your opinion. And on some levels you may be correct, but for those of us who love Star Trek and I count myself as one of those I just am happy to see it back again. I love what JJ has done and if you read articles JJ wanted to go beyond just films, but the red tape he encountered from the powers that be did not let that happen. I love each of the TV shows JJ has done. I hope we get to see Star Trek on the small screen soon.

499. see sci-FI - May 22, 2013

Isnt Sheldon suppose to be asexual?

TOS spock did leia and zarabeth……..Nu Spock is doing Uhura

Sheldon is ASEXUAL and I don’t even like the big bang the show is not funny.however I love the constant pop culture reference.

500. Josh C. - May 22, 2013

487 porthoses bitch –

I believe they’ve highly suggested it to be at that level in the comics

——————–

491 SamwiseVT -

I went listening for that last night. Yeah, thought I heard a few notes from the Amok time theme in there

501. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@495. porthoses bitch

My understanding is that the IDW Star Trek Ongoing and Countdown comics are canon until a movie contradicts them. …does that make them canon lite?
;-)

502. Josh C. - May 22, 2013

501 ObsessiveStarTrekFan –

the problem with that is that the movie basically wipes out the Where No Man Has Gone Before comic, heh. (Kirk says he hasn’t lost anyone. Well, Gary Mitchell….)

503. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@491. SamwiseVT,
“So Michael Giacchino snuck a theme from classic TOS into “Into Darkness.” It is only 8 bars, but you can def hear it”

That’s interesting to me because the filmmakers all seem to love their little homages and Easter eggs, or just blatant lifts, from TOS.

It’s odd that the music steers well clear of any musical tributes to the incredible film and TV scores Trek has inspired. The fight theme in particular is the stuff of parody so it’s interesting that they would go with that of everything they could pull from. Then again the “KHAAAAN!” scream is also much parodied, so … There’s that.

504. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@495

I get what you are saying, which is why I said they are not 100% canon, but there are lead-ins within the comics. For example, before the last movie, the comic showed Nero’s backstory, in detail, which Nero talks about in the movie in about 15 seconds.

In recent comics, they touch on Spock’s PTSD and Uhura’s dealing with that. And as we saw, it did come up in the movie a little bit.

So, whether it is pure canon or not, there are definitely hints in them that are seen in the movies.

Now myself….in the movies, I don’t think they seem as close as a couple that has mind melded and had sex. So, I certainly don’t disregard it if people think they answer is no, that they haven’t had sex. I personally do, but that’s just me.

505. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

Just thinking how many feline races we’ve seen in ST in it’s different incarnations…STIDs cat women, STV’s dancer, TAS gave us the the K’zinti lt. M’hress and the races that organizes the mission in Jihad, I think you could easily include Isis in Assignment Earth. ( she takes the form of a cat but in her humanoid form is catlike in posturing. I’m sure Ive missed some.

506. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 22, 2013

@502. Josh C

Exactly. Apparently Ongoing #1 & #2 didn’t really happen…

Kaiidth – What is, is. We can only work with what we’ve got.

507. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

“Kirk wasn’t in command of his ship and situation at times. In the turbolift with Uhura and he’s talking about ripping the bangs off of Spock I just don’t feel he would reveal his frustration to a crew member. When he asked Uhura what it’s like to be fighting with Spock, it was just too much Star Trek 90210 for me.
When Spock and Uhura got into their dispute on the ship on their way to Kronos?”

Leave off the 90210 comparisons. Kirk apologized for making that comment to Uhura referring to “your boyfriend”. However, these are people living and working together on a starship. They trained together in Starfleet Academy. I think a little levity can be allowed in the way they engage in conversation, on and off duty.

The validity of the dispute on the ship on the way to Kronos has been discussed.

“Also, when Uhura presented her solution to Kirk on Kronos it felt like she was in command, not Kirk. If Spock presented the option I feel it would have played better.”

Why shouldn’t Uhura present her solution to Kirk? It was her idea and she was the xenolinguist of the group. Since when would it have played better if Spock had presented the solution that was not his to start with? Is it because Uhura is a woman and women should always defer to the man? You are the first person to criticize Uhura in that scene. Wow

“In Kirk’s death scene where he admits that he’s scared? Totally out of character. For a captain who’s jumped off of platforms and endured radiation, I don’t think he fears death or if he did, he wouldn’t admit it.”

Out of character? Not really. When had Kirk endured radiation before? Kirk would be unlikely to admit such fears to just anybody, but to Spock, in the circumstances, yes. Spock had been open with Kirk and Uhura not so long ago, also revealing that he had felt Pike’s fear when he was dying. I guess Kirk figured Spock could empathise with him. Just because you jump off platforms or hang from rails or kick anti-matter whatsis into life again, does not mean you are not afraid. Kirk is someone who tends to “feel the fear and do it anyway”. TOS Kirk often revealed his doubts and fears – to Spock and/or Bones…but managed to remain calm and even a little upbeat when he was in the captain’s chair in order to maintain a certain order and crew morale.

508. see sci-FI - May 22, 2013

506. ObsessiveStarTrekFan – May 22, 2013

@502. Josh C

Exactly. Apparently Ongoing #1 & #2 didn’t really happen…
_____________________________________________________

If ongoing 1 and 2 didn’t happen it would have been so much better if BC had been Gary Mitchell.

the whole khan thing was not necessary.

509. Damian - May 22, 2013

415–I started following Star Trek in 1986, just before TVH came out. I remember after seeing the 4 movies, starting to watch the original series on WPIX, channel 11 myself. In the late 80′s it was only on at midnight. We lived in a new development in South Jersey and we didn’t have cable for about 6 months. If I arranged the rabit ears a certain way, I was able to get fair reception of channel 11 and I would sit up and watch Star Trek and loved it all (I was thrilled when we finally got cable and I could watch it crystal clear–or as clear as you could get in the pre-digital age).

Best birthday gift was just after I became a Trekkie, my parents bought be TMP, TWOK and TSFS (TVH was still in theatres) on VHS. This was when VHS was not widely available to buy and they were anywhere from 29.95 to 39.95 each to buy. I still have those videos today and will never get rid of those.

510. William Bradley - May 22, 2013

What you are referring to by “the red tape he encountered” is that CBS would not let JJ eliminate all merchandising featuring the Original Series cast.

He wanted to monetize all aspects of Star Trek under his business empire.

498. jeffman1701 – May 22, 2013
I love what JJ has done and if you read articles JJ wanted to go beyond just films, but the red tape he encountered from the powers that be did not let that happen.

511. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@499

I hate to be some sort of feminazi or something, but it bothers me that you refer to Spock as “doing” women.

Not only does that diminish the value of the women…making them objects for sex only. Not only does it diminish the value of the relationship- here’s a hint. Spock and Uhura care for each other. They love each other. They are in a committed relationship. She’s not just some woman that he bangs.

But, lastly, it diminishes Spock, the man; Spock, the Vulcan. Say what you will about Vulcans, but there is one thing you cannot question, and that is Vulcan propriety. They are not disrespectful, they are not promiscuous, they are not unfaithful. Further, the one person that Spock has loved in his life above all, the one person who brought out emotions in him….is his mother. And I would have to believe that the human part of him..the part that adored and loved his mother would never treat a woman as an object to be “done.”

Spock is a better man than that.

512. Buzz Cagney - May 22, 2013

#438 Khans blood cured a massively irradiated Kirk. He was bloody dead. As dead as could possibly be with one massively damaged and destroyed set of organs. If Khan blood could fix that trust me love, it could fix anything!

513. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

My take is that the movies should be canon in the canon of the IDW universe, but not vice versa.

There’s a quote from Princess Bride (regarding if Buttercup is married to Prince Humperdink..)

“Never said it, never happened.”

514. valyria - May 22, 2013

I want more Spock/Uhura.

Not necessarily more screen time, but more feels. In the first movie their interactions were sweet and tender, but all we got in the second one was that little peck to show that they weren’t fighting any more.

The humour and dialogue was good and I was totally happy with that, but they are both young vibrant characters – I don’t want to see them acting like an old married couple.

It’s a tragic waste of Quinto and Zaldana to not give us at least *one* hot makeout…

515. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

“You seem surprised that a man would think this way about Star Trek, when you yourself have been defending the anonymous “cat women” threesome scene.”

I don’t see why anybody would think that way, irrespective of what may have been shown previously. I defended the right to see the scene of Kirk with the cat women when some posters were calling for it to be deleted from the final cinematic cut and this was just because it was mentioned as being in the movie. Nobody had actually seen it nor knew of its context.

One of my gripes about the film was that the scene was too short for a number of reasons. We never found out the women’s names, what their relationship was to each other, what race they were, how long they had known Kirk etc. We never saw enough of a Pine/Kirk in his underwear either. I felt shortchanged in terms of not getting to see enough of the lovely man (people got a better view of the lovely, uncovered Eve/Marcus than we did of Pine/Kirk). We were shortchanged in terms of even knowing their names. At least, Kirk’s other bedroom frolic in the form of a green Orion woman had a name – Gaila.

The producers…have their priorities a little lopsided. People’s names even are more important than how many more kicks and punches Harrison can give to Kirk. How much more screentime would finding out their names, at the very least, take? It’s mean – for want of a better word.

516. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

So if anyone dies now, we can put them into a cryo tube until we get some magic blood :) I love the future, fountain of Khan. Too bad they didnt put Pike into a cryo tube and revive him later.

517. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

When Kirk tells Spock he’s afraid isn’t he refrencing what Spock told him of Pikes death.?

518. see sci-FI - May 22, 2013

511. MelyBelle44 – May 22, 2013

@499

I hate to be some sort of feminazi or something, but it bothers me that you refer to Spock as “doing” women.
———————————————————————–

okay let me use the real word. TOS Spock had sex with leia kemoli and zarabeth with whom he had a son with in a non canon star trek story. Qunto’s Spock or Nu Spock as people call him is having sex with Nuuhura.

Are you happy now?

519. Robman007 - May 22, 2013

@512…I believe McCoy insinuated that he made an innoculation by using Khan’s blood..and Star Trek has shown that they have medication that can cure irradiated bodies, even of the most lethal dosage (TNG, First Contact, etc)…so, it’s not too far off to say that McCoy just mixed in Khan blood, which was found to have regenerative properties, along with whatever they use to cure radiation poisoning.

520. Robman007 - May 22, 2013

@516..there has always been a miracle cure in Star Trek. McCoy….cured after getting disemboweled because the planet “put him back together”..

Scotty – Fixed by Nomad.

Kirk – Brought back to normal space by crazy transporter gimmick in Tholian Web. Brought back to “life” by crazy transporter gimmick in Obsession (cross curcuiting to B)..

Uhura – Re-educated in a manner of a week after getting mind wiped

Spock – Walking plot device. Inner Eye lids cured blindness. Brought back to life by plot device. Immortal Soul aided in ressurection.

Worf – crazy experimental surgery gave him back the ability to walk.

Countless other tales of Kirk and friends being saved by THE HAMMER OF PLOT!

521. Robman007 - May 22, 2013

Everyone involved in either writing the Trek films or in doing the IDW comics have said, multiple times, that the IDW continuing series of comics is the ONLY cannon events outside of the films.

Not…that….hard…to understand.

522. cpelc - May 22, 2013

@516, @519 @520 —

see my post above for a comparison of how Spock and Kirk were “brought back to life” after saving the warp core.

Thoughts?

523. cpelc - May 22, 2013

Question for those people unhappy about what they call “magic blood” saving the day….
Just in case you couldn’t find said above post.

Please explain to me how essentially a bomb that jumpstarts evolution from atoms and elements can (after the process is already mostly complete and a planet formed) take a dead body, somehow reverse age it down to an infant? [because it can't be an embryo outside of a womb] and then have it age back into exactly the same person?

To me antibodies or supercells that kickstart someones heart and fight off radiation poisoning sounds a lot more plausible.

524. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#520 and #523

Fair enough, when Pike died and Spock put his hands on Pikes face, I wouldnt be surprised if Pikes mind is in Spock now, ready to be dumped into a body…

525. Mallory - May 22, 2013

We really do not need any more screen time being taken up by Spock/Uhura. Please Bob, I couldn’t mean this more. There is so much more you could fit in with the time wasted by giving it to that relationship. Like development of the other crew members. We barely saw Chekov and Sulu. Sulu as Captain was MUCH more entertaining and interesting then the rest of the relationship scenes combined.
I love both characters, really I do. The relationship just doesn’t work for me. I truly hope not to have more of it. I’d love for them to break up, but if not keep it quiet. In ST09 is was too much, STID was a good amount. I could deal with the same in the next film if they are still together.

526. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

This Spock has faced so many harsh tragic moments.

Loss of his planet and 99% of his people, his human mother, pike and almost kirk and his gf Uhursa is pisssed off at him because of his beliefs.

I admire Spock, anyone else would have a meltdown or be diagnosed with PTSD and he be on perm leave from star fleet growing grapes in his backyard. I salute you quinto spock for being so awesome and tragic, nexf to data you are my fav science officer, carol comes third ;)

527. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@470. ObsessiveStarTrekFan,
“The whole genesis device concept is arrant nonsense, but I’m pretty sure we suspended disbelief and enjoyed them”

Yup. And I dare say so was red matter, and transwarp beaming from ST09.

At least in those two cases, Orci addressed the criticism by recognizing and saying that all the red matter was destroyed, so no more time travel: and no more transwarp beaming (until Scotty invents it), as Prime Spock deleted the algorithms he input into Scotty’s computers.

Yet, for some unjustified reason intergalactic transwarp beaming is back. And now there’s “magic blood”.

Yes Genesis was nonsense, but it was a one trick pony. One time deal that revived Spock through some sort of magical confluence of forming a planet out of a nebula and Spock’s torpedo landing on it at just the right time. Never to be repeated again.

Magic blood is a trap as been observed by some. Does it lessen my ability to enjoy STID? No. I wish they hadn’t telegraphed it like I was an idiot, spoon feeding me like a baby (something Orci claims they detest), but alas they did. Still it doesn’t bother me any more as a plot device than anything else that has come before. The problem is, it now exists, seemingly as a universal panacea. How can it not be used again? And because it was genetically engineered in the first place, it can be genetically reverse engineered, no ethical issues with hooking up an IV to anybody and using them as a wonder drug fount.

These are the kinds of traps Roddenberry and the original writers of TOS were aware when inventing technology to stretch their budgets without eliminating their ability to create suspense and peril for their characters.

It’s not about preserving canon or divining exactly how some fictional technology might plausibly work, it’s about understanding the implications of ones decisions. On the face of it, Harrison’s blood being able to cure the girl in the hospital, ressurect the dead tribble, and reverse the effects of radiation on Kirk, create an expectation that there’s little it cannot do — and certainly should be able to cure a number of similar maladies at minimum (death being rather all-encompassing). Likewise for intergalactic beaming. Suddenly there’s a technology that they will have to engineer excuses for not being used rather than focusing on the story.

Granted we have been treated to 12 films that all expect us to accept the Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant able to respond to a crisis without explanation, so I suspect this is not so great a problem in the end, still … why continue to add to that kind of conceit?

It will be interesting to see how Orci defends their choices over the next few weeks.

528. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

#523 – “To me antibodies or supercells that kickstart someones heart and fight off radiation poisoning sounds a lot more plausible.”

I agree – way more plausible than the Genesis effect.

529. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

Uhura*

530. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#527

Well said and thought out.

The other theory is that they are still on Niberu with the natives holding the crew in a super dream induced state and with their ships computer scanned for something to entertain them while their bodies help keep their planet alive.

531. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

I think that the portable transwarp beaming device and the so-called “magic blood” will have limited application. There are too many variables in each case.

532. Cafe 5 - May 22, 2013

I have seen ST:ITD three times and my enjoyment of this film has decreased with each viewing. The writing is very poor and the writers tend to paint themselves into creative corners…falling back on the tried and true methods of blowing something up or killing someone…sometimes in the same scene. Scripts are not written for films but rewritten until they are so tight that they squeek and the words on the page become the movie…things don’t happen just because they are written that way, they have to make sense and can’t be justified by a line or two of dialogue or quick editing. The fans of Star Trek and the general movie going public deserve better than this. I’m a huge fan of Giacchino and have loved his work when he was doing video game scores…
but this score is pedestrian, lacking any vitality. J.J. and crew have proved they are capable of much better. This film is bottom line.. wasted potential.

533. Becca - May 22, 2013

@473- you do indeed, seem quite obsessed. Most if not all your posts are about this particular relationship. You even claimed you would stop watching simply if they broke up. Is that truly the only reason you are watching? You give very lengthy posts defending them against any argument. Just looking at a few anyone could tell you have some sort of personal investment in the relationship. It’s not really a bad thing, many people do somewhere in ST. You are a fan and thats your right and yes, this IS a Star Trek board and Spock and Uhura are very much part of Trek. But when nearly all you can post about are these two and the way you talk about them (combined with your screen name) I think it’s obvious. Given this fandom is Star Trek, obsessed isn’t a bad word to describe it, but it IS an accurate one.

534. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

How do I know the crew is dreaming and still on Niberu?

Magic Blood
Lunatic Admiral
British Khan
Transwarp Beaming
Beatable Klingons that does not kill first ask later
USS Vengence
New Vulcan, prime Spock
Pike dying
Kirk dying and ressurected
5 yr mission

All this is a dream just like inception, wake up and over throw the natives on Niberu!

Joking aside, STID I gave 4.5/5 A++ Everyone I know or went to see it with, loved it!

535. Phil - May 22, 2013

@527. Well, Orci has already taken a stab at defending script decisions regarding underwater Enterprise and line of sight transporting, and he’s come up lacking so far. It will be an interesting piece of fiction when he does get around to it.

@531. There is no ‘so-called’ about it. Call it magic blood, fountain of youth, or whatever, the genie is out of the bottle. The writers have introduced biological material that can raise people from the dead, which is nothing short of miraculous. Well, the Federation can cure death, but fixing the common cold still eludes us?? Come on, you have a tendency to assume most everyone here is a moron, but that’s stretching it quite a bit…

Use of the phrase ‘so-called’ declares a falsehood – so what inside information do you poses that contradicts what so many people on this site have seen and commented on?

536. Joe Schmoe - May 22, 2013

I couldn’t take the time to read every post, so this may have been mentioned before, but did anyone else notice that when we see Spock Prime on the viewscreen that the image is reversed? And any guesses as to why that would be?

537. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@535. Phil,
“It will be an interesting piece of fiction when he does get around to it.”

Starting with “Khan’s” appearance. He indicated we would get an explanation for that as early as this weekend.

What I find interesting about some of the “problems” with the film being discussed here is that at the end of the day, because its Star Trek almost all of them can be dismissed to outsiders by merely pointing out the people raising the questions are nothing but obsessed Trekkies, which immediately implies socially inept nerdy guys living in their parent’s basements with nothing else to occupy their time, despite the fact if some of these issues were raised on any other film they would be considered valid points.

538. Uhurarocks - May 22, 2013

MORE UHURA full stop.

539. Mike - May 22, 2013

Ugh, a lot of Spock/Uhura talk going on here. Lame. I came in at the wrong time. My two cents Bob? I agree with Mallory. Spock/Uhura love is illogical, what’s more its annoying as well. End it.

Anyway on a far more interesting note, CAPTAIN SULU! Woah. John Cho did a hell of a job in that (far too brief) moment he had to shine. Loved it. That steely look in his eye..bamf. I’d like to see more of him in the next one. Chekov didn’t have much to do either, he was barely there at all. Uhura speaking Klingon was amazing, glad to see her actually speak another language. Liked seeing her kick ass too, Zoe’s already shown she can in other films so make it here too.

Seriously though, more Bones. Karl Urban was pure perfection and Deforest Kelly would have been damn proud. The majority of fans have been saying it since ST09 and somehow went unheard. That small moment we had of the legendary trio talking together was much too short. Just a tease, we want the real thing. They made a perfect team. It was almost sad to me to see the “new” big three sitting in a shuttle having a fight about feelings on the way to fight Klingons. Didn’t feel like Trek at all. I kept wishing Bones was there so he could tell them to shut the f^ck up and save it for a better time. He would, and it would’ve been awesome lol. No more cheesy metaphors. One per film should be enough. I’m sure it was supposed to be a subtle wink to old school fans, but instead it felt too forced at times.

Anyways loved the film man. I even got a little teary eyed at Pikes death. My girl full on bawled at the Kirk and Spock goodbye/death scene, and this chick didn’t even cry at UP lol. She loves Trek though and wants to see it again ASAP. I can’t complain because so do I.

540. Philip - May 22, 2013

As far as the Alive Eve hysteria as of late: Go watch “Flight”, and tell me the opening scene to that wasn’t far more gratuitous than the glimpse people caught of Alive Eve in essentially a bikini swimsuit/bra/panty hybrid for all of 4 seconds…Granted, Flight is rated R, however, even for an R rated movie, I can’t remember seeing a woman that outright, stark naked b4 in just an R rated film.

That opening hotel room scene in Flight was about as Gratuitous as you’re gonna get and didn’t serve to drive that story anywhere… However, Carol Marcus’s character was trying to tease Kirk at his own game, getting him to not just get what he wants outright, as he’s used to doing, actually getting a little self-respect telling him to turn around… The people ragging on the scene are missing the point entirely in my mind.

Lighten up! You women are such hypocrites! You got to see Kirk shirtless, in his boxer briefs in the first film for more than a few seconds, and even in the beginning of this film you get the a similar glimpse at Mr. Kirk.

If Alive Eve had her bra partially off, or more nudity was being shown then fine, but that wasn’t the case.

Case closed.

Oh, and I suppose Carrie Fisher, in freaking metal G-string like bikini, with a chain around her neck was horrific as well, right? May as well rag on that as well while you’re at it eh.

541. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#540

So true

542. Sam - May 22, 2013

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit about the s/u thing. The romance seems genuine and real to me and given the pace of the film, I feel they handled it as best they could. Would I like to see more development of them next time, sure, but I understand needing to balance it out with other plot points.

Now with that said, I think anyone who truly believes that Spock cannot have a fully functioning bromance with Kirk while also having a fully functioning romance with uhura, does not get how most real life relationships work. People have multiple individuals that they care for at one time and their lives are made richer for it not poorer. It is also quite disheartening to see so many people dismiss the importance of women in the story. yes trek is about the bromance but that does not mean that whatever connections Spock or Kirk make with women, be they romantic or platonic connections, cannot also be meaningful and significant. To suggest that all women are good for is to be a piece of a**, is sexist at best and misogynistic at worst. Women have just as much of a right to have their lives and jobs get some focus in the trek films as the men do, and whatever connections they have to the men, even if a subplot, is not some throwaway trivial development.

Now in the next film I hope we see more development of the k/s bromance and the triumvirate, as well as s/u and any other character subplots that get included. I also hope that all of the characters, be they male, female or whatever race, get written fairly and given the same thought and consideration. Because I don’t know about the rest of you but I would hope by the time we get to the year represented in the film, that everyone would be treated equally regardless of race, gender, orientation and any other differences, since that is what Star Trek is suppose to be about.

543. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@#533

Becca, it’s nice how you’re trying to twist this, but no. Not obsessed. I’ve posted here for what, 2, maybe 3 days total in the past week, and that’s after being gone for somewhere around 9 months. And the first thing that caused me to want to post was not S/U related. It was strictly about Uhura. Yes, that sounds like my life revolves around S/U doesn’t it?

You seem to have taken a personal interest in my interests. So, tell me Becca, what does that make you?

544. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

*sigh* Same arguments, different day.

First off “feminazi” is a derogatory term. Feminism is the belief that women are people and as such should be treated equally. One could hardly blame any woman for being firm in their stance on that when every time feminist ideals are brought up (this site is a case and point) said feminists are attacked for it and both sexism and misogyny are very much still rampart. Don’t believe me? Kindly visit the site everydaysexism.com.

Secondly, this notion that the Spock/Uhura, or any romance thrown into a film that is not specifically geared towards the romance genre, appeals to the ‘female demographic’ is a stereotype. Speaking as a woman, myself, I am much more concerned with how females are presented within a main storyline than I am of who they’re interested in romantically. The sad thing about this need Hollywood has to put nearly every female protagonist with more than two lines into a romantic pairing is that 9 times out of 10 the female protagonist’s individual character development suffers for it. We get less of ‘her’ (likes outside of profession, hobbies outside of profession, family background, etc.) in lieu of the ‘couple’, which is why women are usually, again 9 times out of 10, generalized in the role wife/girlfriend/love-interest-of-the-cusp-of-becoming-girlfriend with little more to them.

Speaking as a woman, I respond much more to compelling characterization and then I do a romance thrown in as an afterthought to appeal to an ‘allusive’ demographic (the ‘allusive’ was sarcasm… in 2009 and 2010, according to the mpaa, women bought 51% of the movie tickets in the US, in 2011 and 2012, they bought 50%).

The interesting thing about these percentages? The top five box office selling genres according to the website the-numbers.com are not romance or romantic comedies. They are, respectively: Comedy, Adventure, Drama, Action, Thriller/Suspense. Conclusion? Women buy at least half of the tickets sold, sometimes more, and neither romance nor romcoms are in the top five… just some food for thought before we go around trying to paint all women with the same brush.

Personally, just my opinion? I do not care for the Spock/Uhura romance. For many reasons, but here are the two main reasons: in lieu of Hollywood’s propensity to generalize all female roles into wife/girlfriend/soon-to-be-girlfriend I found it gratuitous and superfluous. Two it interrupted my getting to know Uhura as an individual as the bulk of her screen time, in both films, was given to her relationship to Spock instead of Nyota Uhura, the woman. This is my opinion, and before anyone who is unfamiliar with me jumps me for it, save your outrage, my stance will not change.

I am gratitified to note that a lot of the critics are agreeing with me on this topic, as I have read (and posted on my blogs excerpts from) numerous reviews of the film where they pointed out this same disturbing trend in regards to the Spock/Uhura romance and the role of women in general.

A few examples:

The Void

In fact, while the boys rush around at break neck speed shooting at things, shouting quite a lot and generally enjoying a bit of argy bargy and arguing, the only two female characters with any screentime (Uhura and the aforementioned scientist) are rather left to twiddle their thumbs which makes the movie a throwback to a time way before Ripley ever flexed her muscles in Alien.

New York Magazine

The pleasure of an Uhura who takes part in the action is dampened by the rest of the role, which requires her either to entreat Spock to be careful or exhort him to get the bad guy.

Coming Soon

The film’s female characters fare even worse, relegating Zoe Saldana’s Uhura to nothing more than “Spock’s girlfriend” and treating Alice Eve’s Carol Marcus as expository eye candy.

What Culture

To that same token, many characters are given practically nothing to do, and it too often seems to be the females;as Carol, Eve has little agency, paraded out in her underwear in one unbearably perfunctory scene, and is simply a touchstone to allow the next plot beat to abound. Zoe Saldana’s Uhura, meanwhile, is demoted to the role of nagging girlfriend to Quinto’s Spock, even if it does generate a few haughty laughs.

DIY

Unforgivably, the women get short shrift. Zoe Saldana’s Uhura is mainly to the doting girlfriend role, with her character this time defined by her relationship to Spock. The worst offense is newcomer Alice Eve’s Carol Marcus, a “brilliant scientist” whose big moment is stripping to her underwear in a ridiculously gratuitous scene.

…. as for Mr. Lindelof, the apology is appreciated, trust me on that, but as they say… actions speak louder than words. I guess we’ll see how much the lesson stuck when we see your next film. But yes, thank you for that.

545. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Spock/Uhura isn’t illogical. Even Vulcans need mates and she is beautiful and intelligent. What’s more it evens the playing field between Kirk and Spock by making Spock more than the sexless friend standing by while Kirk sleeps with half the alpha quadrant. Now Spock is as much a ‘man’ as Kirk is, in some ways more so because he isn’t so deficient that he can’t sustain an intimate relationship for more than 24 hours. It adds to their friendship by highlighting how they are different and yet the same, just like the rest of us. On top of that, it’s another little crack in Spock’s apparently cool Vulcan facade. In TOS everyone suspected him of having feelings and now he’s out of the closet having a girlfriend and even CRYING. Don’t put him back in just because some people find it ‘boring’ because there are lots of people who find it just the opposite.

546. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#538 Uhurarocks:

Agreed!

547. Barney - May 22, 2013

544. Trekkiegal63 – May 22, 2013

———————————————————–

Gosh I have been waiting for you all day ..please can you put some sense into the K/S and S/U erratic fan base.

548. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@533

I am not saying I disagree with your post, but how is that any different than the “fans” that have been in here complaining about ST09 for years? Calling JJ and Co hacks, losers, and worse? Calling Uhura names? Calling Zoe Saldana names? Saying ridiculously terrible things about Zach Quinto? Saying that they will never watch the trash that comes from the JJverse, because it is not (gasp) exactly like the TOS-verse.

@539

Here is where I see the hypocrisy: people talking about how they don’t like that Uhura was diminished to her only value coming from being Spock’s significant other (not true), and that they should realize Uhura is more than just a trophy woman, and that she has value to the crew. And then, these same people get bent out of shape when Uhura is given more to do, more of a plot, is given action scenes, then they complain that Uhura is being given TOO much in the movie. Wait, huh? The truth is, these people are faking concern over Uhura’s place as only being Spock’s woman, when really, they just don’t like Uhura having a prominent place at all. Then, once again, these people were hooping and hollering about how hot Alice Eve looked in her underwear. Now, I honestly had no problem with the scene. I did not see it as misogynistic. But, the point is, you can’t talk about how poor Uhura is being objectified by being Spock’s lady, and then turn around and rejoice in Carol Marcus’ hot body.

I just see some disingenuity of some people here, that’s all.

549. dmduncan - May 22, 2013

343: “Ha! So female objectification is OK if the reason for it is explained offscreen! Good to know! Especially for a movie Abrams said was not made for the fans. Ha!”

That’s false. It’s not “female” objectification at all. If you take it out of context of who those characters are and the canon relationship they have, then to some people it may have that appearance, but the appearance is trivial. You can’t generalize characters and intentions when they actually express the individual points of view of the characters. If JJ’s camera has a point of view on Marcus in that scene, it’s KIRK’S, and not regarding ALL of womankind—including the lesbians who don’t want his look, but regarding Carol Marcus, a person whom we know has a unique sexual relationship to Kirk in canon.

I think complaining about that scene if you understand their canon relationship is neurotic, and if you don’t understand their canon relationship, it’s understandable that you might make the mistake, but it is a mistake.

It’s also wrong to say JJ didn’t make this film for the fans. Of course he did, but he didn’t make it ONLY for the fans.

550. BRAD - May 22, 2013

Star Trek fan since it ORGINALLY aired in in the 1960s — Participated in orginal letter writing campaign to save TREK.
Have All Series, Movies, and way too many Trek Toys… Collection Recently Valued at just over $12K

BOTTOM LINE: I KNOW MY TREK.

This movie is FANATASTIC. Very cleverly written. Better job of character development – And the actors did a better job of capturing the essence of the original Star Trek characters (And their relationships). Writers made it fun by interjecting plenty of surprises and twists… Sprinkled with some goodies that really smacked of the original TREK. The effects are great… The 3D amazing.

In the future (no puns)… Would like to see more re-introduction of other known characters – ie: Janice Rand, Gary Mitchell, Kelso, Nurse Chaple, etc…

…AND… A totally original NEW ADVENTURE.

But for the time being… I feel Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman NAILED THIS ONE. And I thank them for bringing this TREK to all of us!

551. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

547 Barney:

It’s wonderful to see you, too, Barney. :)

*sigh* You don’t think I’ve tried? Will never happen, unfortunately. I completely, and entirely get why J.K. Rowling calls shipping “scary and vehement cyber gang warfare”.

552. Sam - May 22, 2013

@544 Trekkiegal63

I hope you do not take offense to what I am about to say, but I personally, as a woman, I do not really care for feminism. Why? because lately I’m seeing more and more so called feminists create this narrow confine of rules and actions that women must abide by otherwise they have some how failed to be strong women, or female characters.

This new brand of feminism I am seeing often ignores intersectionality and how women of different races, ethnicities, countries of origin and social classes are treated through out all genre’s of media and real life, as well as ignores that not every woman thinks and feels the same way.

To me, women should be able to choose whether they have a romantic relationship or not. Having one should not automatically make you a weak woman while choosing not to have one makes you a strong independent woman. Women who choose to stay home with their children and care for their families shouldn’t be seen as lesser women and a failure to strong womanhood just because their “work” is their family.

lately I feel all this talk of feminism is a joke because unless you fit into some strict mold as a woman, then people say you are not feminist enough or a good enough woman or female character. I also find it highly problematic that everyone holds up on a pedestal as a perfect example of love and friendship and camaraderie, all of the male characters lives being defined by each other and making emotional decisions about and for each other, and then when a female is finally allowed to have the same amount or at least some amount of emotional weight in the story as the men, she is called weak and just the girlfriend. Well to be blunt, that is a load of crap.

Furthermore Uhura did her job and also had a relationship. That is not a bad thing or anti strong woman or anti feminist or whatever else some people want to think. Also, loving someone, anyone, and caring for and about them does not make you a weak person or character.

553. dmduncan - May 22, 2013

I think if you really want to make a case that Kirk was abusing his authority by looking at Carol Marcus undressed after she wanted him to turn around, Kirk has to do a little bit more than to momentarily lose control of his neck muscles and eyeballs. This Kirk still hasn’t fully matured yet, but in no way does he come across as disrespectful to Marcus. He’s more like a puppy who licks your face after you tell him to stop. And again, she’s not just ANY woman in that scene. That is too general a perspective to have about her.

554. Damian - May 22, 2013

Personally, with the whole Spock/Uhura romance, I can take it or leave it. I did think it was funny when Uhura admitted they were fighting and Kirk asked “What is that even like?”. But it doesn’t really hold my interest overall one way or another.

One disturbing trend I found is that they seem to be making Kirk/Spock/Uhura a new triad to replace the prime universe’s McCoy. I am just of the opinion that Kirk/Spock/McCoy as sacrosanct in the Star Trek universe. Not to mention, Karl Urban probably does the best job of the cast channeling his character accurately without being mocking. He has done a great job as McCoy and his talent appears to have been wasted. I’m ok with elevating Uhura if that’s what they want, but not at the expense of McCoy.

I thought they did a great job with Scotty in STID. They’ve clearly made him a serious character, not just comic relief. I was pleased to see him stand up to Kirk about the torpedoes, to the point of resigning his position. That was a clear sign to me that the writers were listening to some of our points at least.

Now, do the same with McCoy in the next film. Make it clear he is a key part of the Star Trek universe. In the next film, he needs to have an instrumental role curing some disease or saving someone’s life at the last moment.

555. SpassBremse - May 22, 2013

Trek fans. Reminding us all why noone likes a nerd.

556. Damian - May 22, 2013

552–I agree completely. I’m a guy, but I’m of the belief that there should be enough room for everyone, man or woman.

Feminism used to be about making sure the same opportunities were available to women as there is for men, which I agree with. But like all groups that started nobly, they wander off the path. Now, as you say, it seems if you are a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom, you are betraying women everywhere. It shouldn’t be that way.

I don’t have a problem with S/U in the sense that Uhura, like any person, can be in love. My main problem is does it trump McCoy’s place in the new Star Trek universe. I noted my reasons in 554, mainly the importance of McCoy in the triad, and more simply, Urban’s talent at playing McCoy being wasted.

557. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@548MelyBelle44

”@533I am not saying I disagree with your post, but how is that any different than the “fans” that have been in here complaining about ST09 for years? Calling JJ and Co hacks, losers, and worse? Calling Uhura names? Calling Zoe Saldana names? Saying ridiculously terrible things about Zach Quinto? Saying that they will never watch the trash that comes from the JJverse, because it is not (gasp) exactly like the TOS-verse.”

Mely, please give me some credit. You have not seen me do any of those things you’ve listed. And while I haven’t read all of the comments here, I haven’t seen any S/U shipper do that either. And that’s part of what gets my goat. Some of the worst, most offensive, I mean I’ve read racist and sexist comments, actually get excessively catered to with this film. I’ve expressed disappointment, even criticized some work, but I don’t tend to make it personal because I don’t think that’s right. It’s just sad how some of this stuff works out. Really sad.

One of the reasons why I started posting in defense of them, especially Zoe (oh, I remember when anytime she said something immediately a little gang here attacked and called her “dumb,” “stupid,” “why does she keep talking,” “I wish she would just GO AWAY” kinds of comments, and then they criticized her for being naturally thin. I remember being attacked for being supportive of Zachary’s coming out, etc. It’s just sad.

These people were/are 2 minorities (one multiracial, one gay) that just kept being attacked again, and again, and again, as well as their characters for being together. And I just got sick of it and started giving people doses of their own medicine. There is nothing wrong with 2 people being who they are, and I guess that’s why I defended S/U so much and I am defending them now.

Two adults who are from different walks of life that are in love. I don’t see the problem. I don’t see how Women’s Rights is hurt by that. I think it’s fascinating. I’d like to know more about their stories (I don’t think Uhura’s backstory has been covered at all) and how their interactions, with each other and other people, say something about who they are. And isn’t that what all good stories/movies are about: How you can relate to someone or something, i.e. the people?

Anyway, I wrote more than I wanted to. Moving on…

”@539
Here is where I see the hypocrisy: people talking about how they don’t like that Uhura was diminished to her only value coming from being Spock’s significant other (not true), and that they should realize Uhura is more than just a trophy woman, and that she has value to the crew. And then, these same people get bent out of shape when Uhura is given more to do, more of a plot, is given action scenes, then they complain that Uhura is being given TOO much in the movie. Wait, huh? The truth is, these people are faking concern over Uhura’s place as only being Spock’s woman, when really, they just don’t like Uhura having a prominent place at all. Then, once again, these people were hooping and hollering about how hot Alice Eve looked in her underwear. Now, I honestly had no problem with the scene. I did not see it as misogynistic. But, the point is, you can’t talk about how poor Uhura is being objectified by being Spock’s lady, and then turn around and rejoice in Carol Marcus’ hot body.
I just see some disingenuity of some people here, that’s all.”

Yup. I’m with you on this one. I’ve seen it before. It’s a kind of back-handed discrimination that works like a slowly moving cancer. But it’s effective as hell if one can get away with it, and some have.

558. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#552 Sam:

No offense taken, as I’ve seen this same arguments from other shippers used to defend their ship. IE… “Feminism = bad because they’re speaking against my pairing! Oh the humanity!” Personally I think some priorities need to be examined there, but that is just my opinion. :)

And as I’ve stated before, at least 100 times and counting, no one is saying that women can’t have a relationship and a career. I’m a woman, I have a career, and I have a husband. What we’re saying is that, developmental-wise, within fiction and fictional portrayals of women, more time is given towards ‘couple’ development then ‘individual’ development, which more often than not, relegates a female protagonist to girlfriend or wife, or mother.

The only seen in STID that was entirely Uhura, was the Klingon scene (more of that please, writers!) all other scenes she had revolved around Spock in some way, shape or form. We still don’t know of her family, (parents? siblings?), whether she likes bland or spicey food, what sports she plays, etc. And yet, we know some of these things of the men, even the ones with little screen time. For instance, we know Sulu fences and Bones is divorced and from Georgia.

Feminism is not about telling people what to do, but it is about getting over this idea that a woman is defined by who she is dating/married to. It’s also meant to get over all prejudices like the ‘spinster’, as in judging women who are single and choose to be so. The love life of a woman is but one shade of paint on a canvas bursting with color. Feminists ask the question… why is only the love life shown? As we very well should since we are being so blatantly underrepresented.

559. Guy from Berlin - May 22, 2013

Star Trek Into Darkness need more SPACE ADVENTURE … MORE EXOTIC PLANETS … A BETTER SCRIPT (Kirk “dies” and Spock howls … haha! Oh come on … kirk can shift for oneself – Kirk is cheating death and not rescued by an immortal tribble) … more original story or “villains”. Just why Kahn? (boring remake!) Why after all a villain? A new fascinating space phenomenon could be interesting! A well scripted and workmanlike implemented alien character on the bridge and on foreign mission. A well done timetravel story … or whatever. In my opinion (and many other Fans) Into Darkness is the poorest version of what trek can be!

560. Barney - May 22, 2013

Speaking of the great harry potter series that I love to death…One of the main ship Ron/Hermione even hard less on screen time than S/U in almost all the HP films, I don’t know why some of the S/U fans are acting so erratic.

Kirk/Spock bromance is the equivalent of Harry/Voldemort relationship both relationships are the center of both series. everything else is secondary.

However I admit, I rather watch S/U as the romantic couple or just Spock with a woman , I am no fan of the K/S slash fiction. If characters are canon straight keep them that way.

561. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

Let’s get this straight…..Lt. Dan has “magic legs”……Khan has “specia blood

562. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@554. Damian,
“Now, do the same with McCoy in the next film. … In the next film, he needs to have an instrumental role curing some disease or saving someone’s life at the last moment.”

Ummmmmm … Did you stay for the whole movie?

563. Phil - May 22, 2013

@553. Problem is, this puppy is in a command position, and is her boss. It seems like everyone who wants to defend this particular scene wants to do so out of context, and you can’t. Either that, or Starfleet, which employs a command structure, has absolutely no standards for behavior. If that’s the case, then anything goes. It’s hard to imagine an organization that drops the hammer on someone for violating the Prime Directive is perfectly acceptable with open harassment of it’s personnel by it’s commanders….

564. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Aaah so we established in 2009 that time travel is possible and since Into Darkness has Khan, for the next movie let’s have everybody’s next favorite Trek plot and have them SAVING THE WHAAAALES ~cue maniacal laughter~

565. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@#560

Barney, are you kidding me? Voldy/Harry =/= Spock/Kirk. Anyway, I don’t think Harry Potter is a good comparison for Star Trek. One reason is we’re dealing with adults here.

566. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#560. Barney:

I have theories on why ‘slash’ is widely popular within fandom, mostly centered around female characters lacking proper development within film and books and a history of media being presented in the ‘male gaze’ thus conditioning women to see view things from that perspective themselves, but I wont go into that here… I have enough controversy on my hands with the S/U shippers, best not rile yet another group of shippers on this fine morn’. ;)

567. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@521. Robman007,
“Everyone involved in either writing the Trek films or in doing the IDW comics have said, multiple times, that the IDW continuing series of comics is the ONLY cannon events outside of the films.”

I believe what Orci has said is that he considers EVERYTHING canon until a movie contradicts it. That said, with respect to the IDW comics he has said he personally considers them canon, until the film contradicts it. He explained this position by saying they would not want to get locked into something in the comics and not able to use a good idea, character, or storyline in a later film.

Clearly in the case of Mitchell and Kelso, STID has already eliminated the first two ongoing comics as canon, as well as issue 3 & 4 in the case of Latimer, and any other comic where someone from Kirk’s crew died.

568. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

Listen, I love Bones, too, I do.

But, what you have to understand is it makes little to no sense to have the doctor on the bridge, and since most of the Enterprise part of the movie is going to take place on the bridge, that means seeing less of Bones. I get that.

You also have to understand that in TOS, it was slower paced. Dr. McCoy usually only had like…one patient at a time, if any, so he had time to meander around the ship, he had time to hang out with the crew. In this timeline, at least during the course of these movies, MedBay is a hopping place with tons of patients, and the medical staff is very busy. So, yes, the chief medical officer is going to be busy and not up on the bridge. If the ship is getting hit left and right, and people are flying all over the place, and then we see Bones just kind of seeing how things are going on the bridge, most sane people are gonna think to themselves, “Uh doesn’t that Dr have better things to be doing?”

I mean, they gave Bones an away mission at the beginning of the movie with Kirk. They gave him a scene to work on the torpedo with Dr. Marcus. What else do you expect the CMO of the ship to be doing?

569. Sam - May 22, 2013

@ 556 I agree with a lot of what you say. I think that there has to be a way for there to perhaps be some more of McCoy, while not decreasing Uhura’s prominence.

@558 Trekkiegal63

I agree with you on many of the things you are saying. I think the real issue, to me at least, is that we need way more shows, and films that have women as protagonists instead of men. The real root of the issue in my opinion is that men’s lives and relationships to each other are what is primarily focused on in the media. Protagonists get better development, so more of them need to be women, and more of them need to be a variety of races as well in my opinion.

I too want to know more about Uhura and her background. Her likes and dislikes and her family. But with how trek is structured, I really do not see how we can find any of this out unless the writers are willing to scale back, just a bit, the focus on Kirk and Spock and their relationship to each other so that other characters(all of the non Kirk and Spock ones) have room to grow. I feel as things are now we know the same amount about Uhura as we do about Checkov, Sulu and maybe McCoy. We know she is ambitious and driven from the first film, as well as the fact that she likes her jack straight up.
We know she is unmatched in her particular field and has enough guts to face down Klingon’s. Does this mean I do not want more, of course I do! However, I refuse to believe that she has to be taken out of her relationship in order to get more focus out side of it. I refuse to believe that she cannot have the same emotional weight in the film as some of the men, in order for her to have some of her other attributes expanded upon. I feel they did more for Uhura in the new film compared to the last, and I hope they continue that trend in the next film. I hope all the characters can get more development.

Also, for what its worth, I am not saying all of feminism is bad or all feminists are bad. However, I do believe that some feminists and feminist ideals have been twisted around and are now just as oppressive as women having no rights at all.

570. Barney - May 22, 2013

565. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 22, 2013

@#560

Barney, are you kidding me? Voldy/Harry =/= Spock/Kirk. Anyway, I don’t think Harry Potter is a good comparison for Star Trek. One reason is we’re dealing with adults here.
——————————————————

OKAY NOW YOU JUST PISSED ME OFF. (lol…just a little bit)

HP is not a kids thing it started off as kid books but then as time went by it got very dark and mature. HP was a very complex series with so many adult themes like death, slavery, power, racism need I go on.

Point is Harry and Voldemort were the central characters of the series just like Kirk and Spock are. that’s all i am saying.

trekkiegal63 ,

I think the main reason why I hate slash is that most of the time, the fan fiction has no substance. it is just kirk and spock having sex. someone said the reason why many females like slash is the fact that they can insert themselves as one of the characters they are writing.

571. Jenna - May 22, 2013

@562: Maybe @554 wanted to say: He should save someone’s life in the last moment in more than 30 sec of screentime. xD

@568: I absolutly agree with you that Bones must be pretty busy when half of the Enterprise has been blown away. So why on earth is he doing research on a tribble at the very same moment? (also in – hmm – let’s say: 30 sec)

572. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#569 Sam:

I think the real issue, to me at least, is that we need way more shows, and films that have women as protagonists instead of men.

Yes. Exactly. I agree with you, here.

I feel as things are now we know the same amount about Uhura as we do about Checkov, Sulu and maybe McCoy.

Not really, because as I pointed out, we know more about Sulu than Uhura at this point. Then only thing we know of Uhura is either work related or Spock related. Wherein lies the problem. This idea that a woman’s world revolves around her relationship while men, even supporting characters, are allowed hobbies such as fencing. One or two quick, seconds only scenes, would do the trick: a scene of Uhura singing prior to getting called to the bridge for an emergency, as she did in TOS, or perhaps someone walking in while she’s on a personal call with her sister, etc. The problem? All of her screen time – schooling Klingons on honor notwithstanding (can’t help but think Worf would have been so proud of her there, were they to know each other) – are Spock geared. Which most scenes for these romantic subplots are in almost every film, not just Star Trek. The subplot romance trope comes before individual character development as what little time is allotted to each character gets eaten up with the ‘couple’ moments.

However, I do believe that some feminists and feminist ideals have been twisted around and are now just as oppressive as women having no rights at all.

Depends on the context in which feminism is used. As I’ve stated, many times, feminism is not about telling people what to do, it’s about women being treated and represented as fully cognitive, intelligent, articulate, creative, capable and multi-layered human beings, and not defining us solely through our relation to men.

573. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@558

Once again, I disagree. Even in TOS, Uhura is seen as an empathetic character. She gets along with most of the crew, she’s the friendly ear for people to talk to. She smiles. She hugs. She teases. She is, in my opinion, the most human person on the ship. So, if she happens to get emotional, for someone else or for herself…well, in my mind, that is part of who she is, in both universes.

Let’s look at Uhura in both movies, shall we (begin)? hehe

She doesn’t accept a free drink, even though many women would. She shoves Kirk off of her. She tells Cupcake that she can handle Kirk’s advances. She doesn’t ask or expect the other cadets to take care of him for her.

She asserts herself for a position that was rightfully hers. (Something else she gets ripped apart about. She’s too weak, but somehow in this scene she is too aggressive, make up your frickin minds) She was a serious student and would likely be an ideal officer.

She is the first one to understand the concept of the “alternate reality” that Spock talks about. It’s small, but it speaks to how sharp her mind is.

She’s a very strong woman, but also tender, and obviously, it would take someone very special to win Spock’s affections. He didn’t fall for her just because she is pretty.

She gives Spock space when he needs it, which indicates she is not petty, she is not pushy, she is not a whiny needy woman.

She does her job at the beginning of STID despite being emotionally a wreck (as anyone would be) Even with her hands shaking like a leaf, she is able to push through and do the job that Kirk asks her to do, and she does not stop doing her job until the mission is complete.

When Kirk was being immature in the TurboLift, SHE is the one trying to keep things at a professional level. “Captain..”

One thing I would have liked to see more of is her reaction to Spock being transferred off ship. We didn’t see it, but I am sure we would have seen her behaving as professionally as could be expected.

She is incredibly brave and kicks some major booty talking to those Klingons.

Spock and Uhura’s reconciliation wasn’t some long drawn out gushy moment. They kiss. And SHE moves on her way, while HE stops and watches her.

She shows no hesitancy whatsoever in getting beamed down to go after Harrison. No fear, nothing. And, she shoots that phaser like a champ. And, when he turned on her, she didn’t flinch. Not once.

So, there are people who think she isn’t given enough to do, and then there are people who think she is given too much to do. I don’t think they’ll ever win when it comes to Uhura.

574. Damian - May 22, 2013

562–When Kirk “ordered” McCoy to stop with the metaphors, I kind of thought, gee, that’s all his role seems to be.

He used Khan’s magic blood to save Kirk. There was really no genius on McCoy’s part. He was given an easy plot device (BTW, loved the film mostly, but the magic blood really was just too much for me).

McCoy needs a bigger role in the next film, that’s all. Something where he is the only thing between life and death. He needs to be in a landing party with Kirk and Spock for once, just the 3 of them toughing out some situation they are in. (Partly because of the triad, but also partly because Urban has done such a great job in the role, I want more).

560–I don’t get the reading of a bromance into Kirk and Spock either. In the original series, they were more like brothers (along with McCoy) and Kirk even speaks of them as family (particularly in Star Trek V). I get the gay/lesbian community wants a little representation in Star Trek, but Captain Kirk? Womanizer of womanizer’s. The galaxy’s ladies’ man. I’m afraid he would make a poor role model.

Also, can’t 2 guys be friends without them having a “thing” or an attraction to each other (just like a man and woman). Just because Spock and Kirk (and McCoy in prime universe) are the best of friends doesn’t mean they secretly want each other.

575. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#570. Barney:

Can’t agree or disagree. I don’t read fanfiction. I barely have enough time for the professionally written and published books I buy. My daughter, however, has read one or two things produced out of the fandoms she enjoys… she wasn’t overly impressed.

576. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

“565. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 22, 2013

@#560

Barney, are you kidding me? Voldy/Harry =/= Spock/Kirk. Anyway, I don’t think Harry Potter is a good comparison for Star Trek. One reason is we’re dealing with adults here.
——————————————————

OKAY NOW YOU JUST PISSED ME OFF. (lol…just a little bit)

HP is not a kids thing it started off as kid books but then as time went by it got very dark and mature. HP was a very complex series with so many adult themes like death, slavery, power, racism need I go on.

Point is Harry and Voldemort were the central characters of the series just like Kirk and Spock are. that’s all i am saying.”

:) Not trying to offend, barney. I’ve read the books, and that’s why I really don’t see Spock/Kirk as anything like Harry/Voldy. If all you are talking about is how much the character is used, then I think I understand. I’m still not sure that I completely agree, though. I’d have to think about it. Ron would be a better comparison, but still not right to me.

—-

I guess this would be a good time to ask about all of the stuff above again just so my question doesn’t get lost in the comments:

@boborci

Any thoughts?

577. Ritz - May 22, 2013

And of course there is the already much debated, much lamented underwear scene. All I have to say is any scene that communicates that its OK to disregard a woman’s wish not to be looked at while almost naked just because she is attractive (i.e. no really does not mean no if she is hot enough) and puts the name Star Trek on that makes me sick. That is a message that does not belong in film, much less something that used to be socially progressive like Trek.

And to make things so much worse, they take a character that broke racial barriers on network television and inspired future African-American actors and astronauts and drew the praise of MLK and reduce Uhura to the whiny girlfriend of Spock who cannot act professionally on an away mission and is only in scenes to worry about Spock or advance his character’s plot. (Yes, her scene with the Klingons was great, but overshadowed by the rest of her dialogue).

Yes, women in Star Trek in the 1960′s dressed in revealing outfits. I am not saying classic Trek always got it right, and it gets blasted for that (see the Uhura dancing with the fans scene). But much of that was a function of TOS starting Trek half a century ago. What Trek really did was challenge racism and sexism. THAT is what made Trek special – it was intelligent, profound, ground-breaking. The idea of a black woman working on the bridge of a starship was radical at the time, and to reduce that character to what she is now is a joke.

578. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@575

That’s because she hasn’t found a good writer. It’s like finding a needle in a haystack, but when you do, it’s worth it.

579. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#573 MelyBelle44:

Then we disagree *shrug*. No offense meant, here, but you’re not the first, nor probably the last, I disagree with on this topic. And my opinion, as I’ve stated before, remains unchanged.

…I’d also like to point out that most of those scenes you mentioned meant to, in your mind, establish Uhura as an individual actually involve Spock. Just saying… ;)

580. Damian - May 22, 2013

I always wondered if Bob Orci (or any of the team reading our comments) ever thinks to themselves one of us here has a point. We trekkies are a particular lot, and we like to debate Star Trek to the last detail (right down to how long it really would take to get to Kronos).

But I wonder, is there anything someone here comes up with in an honest critique that makes them think “Gee, we did kind of blow it on that scene or point, fan A does have a point.”

581. dub - May 22, 2013

I was excited about the film and so wanted to love it. I loved the first half of the film! I was ready to shout praises on facebook. But then… the second half was so disappointing. Here’s what brought me past the point of no return (meaning, “no return” to the theater to see it again):

They lifted far too many quotes from TWOK. A quote here and there is fine and can be nice. But they went way overboard with direct quotes, and then hit me with the ultimate face-palm — Spock yelling “Khan!”

To me, it would have been so much better to have the exact same scenes, but without all of the lifted dialogue. You can still “mirror” or visually quote TWOK scenes without actually lifting the dialogue and it could actually be quite nice. My issue isn’t plagiarism or anything like that…it just simply comes off as incredibly corny to me when there are so many quotes. The fans in the audience are smart enough to see what you’re trying to do without all of the quotes. Plus, it’s more fun if you’re not so obvious about it. And the non-fans don’t know that anything’s being quoted anyway.

582. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

Hey, can we discuss continuity issues for a moment.

1) Whether or whether or not Vulcans can choose to feel. I am still pretty unclear on that.

2) Spock’s pronunciation of Uhura’s name. This one for me was a big ol’ huh? Like, how do they switch up her name from one movie to the next?

3) Nurse Chapel- Nurse Chapel was alluded to in the last movie, As Bones moves off screen in MedBay, you hear him yelling, “Nurse Chapel!” Quietly, and some people may miss it, but it’s there. Then, this time around, she leaves the Enterprise to BECOME a nurse. Again, I am like…huh?

Did anyone catch anything else? The second two for me were very confusing. Because they were easy fixes. Surely someone on the set caught the goofs or could have fixed the goofs relatively easily.

583. Sam - May 22, 2013

@572 trekkiegal63

We could debate this all day, but I think were are just going to have to agree on some things and disagree on others. I do not feel we know more about Sulu and Chekov then we do Uhura. We know Sulu fences. I do not see how that is more important then knowing Uhura is out going and likes her jack straight up and is a very career oriented individual. And we know like nothing about Chekov. Again, this does not mean we should not get to know more about her. I am just saying that I hope we can do that in the next film, if there is to be a next film, without ending her relationship which also helps showcase different aspects of her character and allows her to have emotional weight in the story.

As to the last part of you post. Well that is where my problem starts. You say: “Depends on the context in which feminism is used. As I’ve stated, many times, feminism is not about telling people what to do, it’s about women being treated and represented as fully cognitive, intelligent, articulate, creative, capable and multi-layered human beings, and not defining us solely through our relation to men.”
That definition that you gave is all fine and dandy, accept for the fact that many seem to think women have to be doing certain things and acting in certain ways, otherwise they are not being ” fully cognitive, intelligent, articulate, creative, capable and multi-layered human beings, and not defining us solely through our relation to men.”
I have seen far too often in my real life that the moment a woman decides to be a stay at home mom people decide she is no longer intelligent or multi-layered. I have seen far too often that when some women do make the CHOICE to have most of their life revolve around a significant other or family, that they are seen as weak and incapable of fending for themselves. I have even seen women who want to become nurses instead of doctors looked down on with disappointment, because being a doctor is the stronger and better(more masculine) choice in peoples eyes. But when men’s lives revolve solely around each other and/or are defined by other men, as it often is to a great degree in bromance shows and films, people put that on a pedestal and say its amazing and sacred.

If feminism is about equality and equal opportunity and choices for women, then all choices women make, even if some of those choices fall under traditional gender roles, need to be seen as valid and powerful and strong and feminist. So if a female character falls more onto the supportive partner side of things, that should not automatically make her feminist fail. what we should ask for is another female character who is written differently, so that all choices and possible depictions of women are being represented. Or as I have stated before, ask for more aspects of Uhura or any female characters life, to be shown that does not have a connection to the men in their lives. However, the men in their lives should not be taken away from them in order for this to be done.

584. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@#577Ritz
”And to make things so much worse, they take a character that broke racial barriers on network television and inspired future African-American actors and astronauts and drew the praise of MLK and reduce Uhura to the whiny girlfriend of Spock who cannot act professionally on an away mission and is only in scenes to worry about Spock or advance his character’s plot. (Yes, her scene with the Klingons was great, but overshadowed by the rest of her dialogue).”

And what’s also bad is how her being the “whiney girlfriend” didn’t even make sense. I’m sorry, but I just think, from all that I’ve found out about Vulcans, that they should be bonded by now. I mean, do they share living quarters on the ship? We don’t even know that from the film. I’m just asking because if he’s sleeping next to her every night, then if he has nightmares, trouble sleeping, trouble meditating, or anything else that would tell her he does in fact feel (which again, if they are bonded they are tied psychologically and emotionally anyway, and I doubt that he would just completely shut her out for 6 months when this would be a time when he needs her the most) and that he’s having a hard time.

If she can see that he’s having a hard time, and she should know him well enough to tell by now, then why attack him for trying to save a civilization the way he probably wished someone had been able to save Vulcan and the way he and the rest of the crew were able to save Earth? Uhura is a smart woman, so it’s odd to me that she couldn’t put 2 and 2 together like that and come from the same loving, caring place that she did in the last film, one of wanting to help and not badger.

And here’s the other thing. Spock is logical. If he’s having a hard time managing dealing with the effects of losing his mother and Vulcan, then wouldn’t it be logical to seek out help? Daddy is probably only an intergalactic phone call away. After all, he was able to call Spock Prime. I’m guessing that perhaps a few Vulcan healers made it out alive after the holocaust, and doesn’t Starfleet have regulations that cover emotional/psychological stability after such a loss?

Oh goodness, I’m not trying to write an essay. Needless to say, I think there were some issues with how they were portrayed this time around.

585. Julio Scissors - May 22, 2013

@577

I suppose you would suggest that African-American female actress should only play certain types of roles then?

Seems sort of backwards thinking for 2013.

586. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#582 MelyBelle44:

3) Nurse Chapel- Nurse Chapel was alluded to in the last movie, As Bones moves off screen in MedBay, you hear him yelling, “Nurse Chapel!” Quietly, and some people may miss it, but it’s there. Then, this time around, she leaves the Enterprise to BECOME a nurse. Again, I am like…huh?

Good point. I hadn’t notice that but it does point out an interesting flaw (not to beat a dead horse as I see, and also appreciate you’re trying to move the conversation onwards into neutral territory, but relegating Nurse Chapel as one of Kirk’s one night stands irritated me beyond the telling of it. Grrrr. Majel is turning over in her grave).

587. WicketSC - May 22, 2013

I do not understand all the indignation about the “magic blood.” Yet every other Star Trek wild scenario for bringing someone back to life seems to be perfectly fine and believable. Spock was famously brought back to life after his torpedo/coffin some how “soft landed” on a planet that then presumably turned him back into an infant or fetus. The planet then started aging and growing him at a rapid rate. He was taken from the planet at the exact time his appearance or aging seemed to make him look like he did in the previous movie, then the contents of his brain where redownloaded into his brain by Dame Judith Anderson after she gave some dire warnings about it not being logical, blah, blah blah. Whatever hon, just put his katra back where it belongs so we can go back in time to save some humpback whales.

All that makes perfect sense and is looked on as CANON or some sort of holy scripture or something, but the idea of a genetically engineered human’s blood having healing properties, seems to be just ridiculous and beyond belief.

588. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 585 Julio Scissors

How on Earth do you get that from my post?

589. Phil - May 22, 2013

@587. Actually, I would have been perfectly fine if they had left Spock dead at the end of WOK…

590. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 584 Sam

The problem is when, for most of the past two movies, Uhura’s primary role is ‘Spock’s Girlfriend.’ (Yes she does other really awesome stuff, but the main drama centers around her role as Spock’s partner).

Also, Carol Marcus’ role is ‘Eye Candy for Kirk.’ Contrast that with Carol Marcus’ role in TWOK – she made one of the greatest scientific developments in the history of mankind. Yes she was Kirk’s old flame, but she existed as her own person. When women are defined on the screen by the men they are with it sends the wrong message – i.e. that women are somehow dependent on or defined by men. Simply put, its sexist.

591. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#583 Sam:

However, the men in their lives should not be taken away from them in order for this to be done.

Until Hollywood is able to write and portray relationships which don’t rob female protagonists of individual development, then I’d rather not see the romance trope at all as it is psychologically damaging and perpetuates ancient stereotypes. The problem is that few balance both individuality and couplehood well. However, there have been a few gems. I have them listed on my blog. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is one. As is Chocolat. To name a couple.

I have seen far too often in my real life that the moment a woman decides to be a stay at home mom people decide she is no longer intelligent or multi-layered. I have seen far too often that when some women do make the CHOICE to have most of their life revolve around a significant other or family, that they are seen as weak and incapable of fending for themselves.

The unfortunately thing is that this prejudice goes both ways. And I’m speaking from personal experience here – I was judged by my in-laws for being a working mother who opted not to stay at home. As women we’re damned if we do, and damned if we don’t. Which is the problem. We’re held to stereotypes and ideals, sometimes contradictory and/or impossible as they’re a catch-22 scenario. You know what would help? Not portraying women as stereotypes within the media, so that these stereotypes can die a natural death.

However, I agree with the sentiment that woman should be welcome to make the choice best for her and not be judged for it. If women wish to work, more power to them, should they wish to stay home, that’s a valid choice as well. It’s just a shame that the media still casts aspersions on said choice by defining women through common held generalizations, even in this day and age.

592. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@#586

Oh, I noticed it. I remember thinking about that while watching the film. It was another oversight (McCoy does mention a “Nurse Chapel” in ST09). Personally, I think from Carol and Kirk’s interaction that Jim impregnated Nurse (maybe she went back to become an advanced nurse or something) Chapel and she’s the one that will have a child with him but doesn’t want it raised on a starship. It’s just my guess though.

593. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 591 Trekkiegal63

I would also say that we have a great example of a well-done relationship in Trek – Kira and Odo ended up together, and their relationship was a big part of DS9, especially later on. But Kira was also developed as a holocaust survivor, a rebel, a deeply passionate and conflicted woman, tough as nails, compassionate, professional, a capable commander, etc. And it was those very things that Odo found attractive in her. When she and Odo had their differences they didn’t argue in the middle of a Dominion attack. Basically she was a well-developed character who happened to end up with Odo.

594. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

How about this: Spock and Kirk get space flu and spend most of the film in sickbay exchanging witticisms with Bones as he attemps to cure them. Meanwhile all the major plot arcs are dealt with by Sulu, Uhura, Scotty and Chekov, thereby developing much loved characters while simultaneously maintaining the classic triumvirate of white dudes. Also gives room for S/U shippers when Uhura visits Spock with some plomeek soup, obvs bringing enough to share with the others to whit Bones quips that hers is better than Nurse Chapels. The End.

595. Sam - May 22, 2013

@584
I do not think Uhura was a “whiny girlfriend” If she was whiny then so was Jim and McCoy and lots of other folks who brought up feelings though out the damn film. And if Uhura was unprofessional at times, then wasn’t Spock, and Kirk and McCoy?

Furthermore, why would they be bonded by now? they haven’t been together for years and years. It appears in the comics that they do at times share quarters and get physically intimate, but are not permanently living together. They are dating and very close, but that does not mean they will have a perfect understanding of each other. Thats the whole point, that interspecies relationships are hard work and fraught with misunderstanding due to racial and cultural differences. S/U show that if you try hard enough to communicate and understand, and love is strong enough, then you can make it through those obstacles and come out stronger. the “fight” scene did not work for you, I get that and respect that, but it did for me. And as some one who is in a relationship it felt like real life to me.

But to get back to the broader aspects of your statement, I think the main issue is that a lot of the back-story for what was bringing tension into the s/u relationship was brought up in the comics, but perhaps not transitioned over into the film vividly enough. They have entire conversations about Spock throwing himself into dangerous situations without thinking, without self preservation and even at times without even consulting the Captain. She is aware of his emotional state, and nightmares and they have discussed it. However, there were aspects of it Spock says he did not want to talk about as he felt it would not and could not help. He had also begun to shut himself off emotionally from everyone.

While I do not feel like debating the fight they have, as I have already done so elsewhere, based on the comic back story and what we see on film. Uhura was at her breaking point. She was afraid that Spock was just giving up on life and living, and that he would do so without saying goodbye. She could not understand how he could not think about how it effects her if he dies, but as we see through his speech, that is not true and he does think of it…

To me its a very real and human moment. Sometimes emotions pour out at inopportune times, especially when they have been kept bottled up, no matter how strong we are or how professional. Thats what makes us flawed and human. Thats what makes these characters relate-able.

596. Ahmed - May 22, 2013

@ 593. Ritz – May 22, 2013

“When she and Odo had their differences they didn’t argue in the middle of a Dominion attack. Basically she was a well-developed character who happened to end up with Odo.”

Exactly, the scene where Uhura argue with Spock in the middle of a very dangerous mission was such a turn off & unbelievable.

There was no need for that scene at all. If they wanted to address how Spock was handling himself after the destruction of his homeworld & the lose of his mother, they could have come up with different & better way than this lover’s quarrel.

597. Buzz Cagney - May 22, 2013

#531 no there aren’t. They’ve already transwarp beamed in 2 films. Its now proven technology. And Bones has brought somebody back from the dead- with creamed internal organs from radiation so strong it killed him a minutes- using Khan blood. Nobody needs ever die again! Its a miracle.
Oh no, hang on, no, its writers who wanted to play a scene out but didn’t have a bloody clue how to end it with the hero still intact. And now they’ve done what they’ve done they’ve totally tied their own hands as regards any future risk or peril.
Durrr!

598. boborci - May 22, 2013

580. Damian.

yes, we do. and i have admitted on this thread many times!

599. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 595 Sam

Yes, nearly every character in the film was unprofessional and childish. That was part of the problem.

When originally I referred to Uhura as a ‘whiny girlfriend’ I meant that all her character was written as was someone who has drama with Spock at unprofessional times to create conflict for his character. It seem she only existed to be Spock’s partner and have conflict in the relationship – for example, she came on the away mission to play a key role on a critical mission but the writers did not let that define her, rather she and Spock had the argument on the way down to Kronos.

Uhura, as originally written and portrayed, was so much more than that. Heck, she was a civil rights icon. Compare that to the Uhura in STID and tell me what you see,

600. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Well Bob I liked the movie. Hope we don’t have to wait so long for the next one.

601. rogue_alice - May 22, 2013

Keachick is going to jump all over me but, I have always thought of the Enterprise as a character in her own right. And I have an affection for her because so many times she survives and protects her crew in the end.

She has also given her life.

I know my efforts to articulate this are weak but I love the Enterprise as much as I do her crew.

602. SoonerDave - May 22, 2013

Wow. I saw STID on opening night in a packed/sold-out theater, and I loved it.

Based on this thread, I guess I was supposed to hate it.

I love talking Trek, but at some point, if you’re just going to kill it for the sake of killing it, doesn’t that take the fun out of it? I mean, really, folks…

All I can say is this: 100%, and I mean 100%, of my friends and/or coworkers that have conveyed an opinion to me personally, or generally via FB or Twitter seen it loved it. They thought it was super – unsolicited. The nastiest things I’ve read about it have come from *this site*. Just sayin’.

I mean, here we are, with a Trek just released that cost $190M to produce, with some of the best SFX and setpieces could fathom, worldwide marketing like we’ve never seen, $170M worldwide opening week….and this thread make it seem like we just came away with “Ishtar.”

Folks, this is a really good, grand, enjoyable movie. Can’t it just be enjoyed that way? Or, as an old-time Trek fan, is being entertained just not enough anymore? Maybe we could get Berman back to make a sequel to Nemesis…

C’est la vie.

603. William Bradley - May 22, 2013

You have forgotten that Khan never had magic blood before.

Suddenly, now he does! And it is so magical that it reanimates Tribbles! Why, a dead Tribble just happens to be lying around! And McCoy just happens to inject it with Khan’s blood to, you know, see what happens!

And it springs back to life! And so does Kirk!

Yay!!!!

>587. WicketSC – May 22, 2013
I do not understand all the indignation about the “magic blood.” Yet every other Star Trek wild scenario for bringing someone back to life seems to be perfectly fine and believable. Spock was famously brought back to life after his torpedo/coffin some how “soft landed” on a planet that then presumably turned him back into an infant or fetus. The planet then started aging and growing him at a rapid rate. He was taken from the planet at the exact time his appearance or aging seemed to make him look like he did in the previous movie, then the contents of his brain where redownloaded into his brain by Dame Judith Anderson after she gave some dire warnings about it not being logical, blah, blah blah. Whatever hon, just put his katra back where it belongs so we can go back in time to save some humpback whales.

All that makes perfect sense and is looked on as CANON or some sort of holy scripture or something, but the idea of a genetically engineered human’s blood having healing properties, seems to be just ridiculous and beyond belief.

604. Number One (Trek Fan) - May 22, 2013

@BOBORCI

Great Film. I just had a question. You guys said that alternate reality is a quantum reality where the events of the orignal series and films could play out or not play out at all.

Some things could happen and others may not happen at all. For example if Kirk and Carol get together, they may have a daughter instead of a son. The Federation and the Klingons may never become allies. I remember you alluded to the old TNG episode Parallels which is one of my all time favorites.

Now that the five year mission has begun, do you guys have any idea where you want to take this crew after this ? Since its not a weekly tv show, we know that the next time we see the crew they will be a older and Kirk will be a fully grown up Kirk (Still a chick magnet) but Kirk. They will be changed I am sure by this five year mission.

I loved this movie so much. I did not want it to end. I really want to see what happens to them and oh Bob is war really coming? Man and will we see the Romulans? Will we see major war? I want to see a huge space battle. Klingon warbirds and Starfleet ships. Again great movie. Great story. Thank-you for helping me espace the madness of this world for 2 hours. I appreciate it more than words can say.

May the Great Bird of the Galaxy continue to guide you. One more thing is the Android dude on the bridge part of the Soong family tradition? Would be so cool to see Brent Spiner as a Soong Ancestor taking care of the Android. I am just saying.

605. Sam - May 22, 2013

@ trekkiegal63

“Until Hollywood is able to write and portray relationships which don’t rob female protagonists of individual development, then I’d rather not see the romance trope at all as it is psychologically damaging and perpetuates ancient stereotypes.”

So what you are saying is that until Hollywood does things by you’re feminist standards and creates female characters and their relationships to your feminist standards, then no more romance for any women on film or TV, or for women and men in the audience to enjoy, if they enjoy such things. So what you’re saying is that your opinion of feminism and how women should be developed on TV and film when in a relationship, is the only way it should be done or seen, otherwise its not really feminist or being done correctly and has failed.

well in that case why not get rid of female characters all together since you know, sexism will most likely never go away and neither will misogyny, so its inevitable that the vast majority of female characters in general regardless of being in relationships, will fail to hold up to someone’s feminist standards. And that of course would be damaging to young impressionable girls who need strong and “correctly” portrayed female role models, so they should probably just not see anyone who represents them(women) on TV or in movies, unless of course, they fit some standard that you or some other feminist approves of.

But, if as we have already discussed, feminists all disagree on the standard mold women should fit, then who’s ideas do we follow when creating female characters and relationships. Also, how do we take things like race, ethnicity , culture, nationality and socioeconomic standing into account, since those things have greatly influenced how different women throughout the history of film and TV have been portrayed. Because surely you do know not ALL women of ALL backgrounds have spent the majority of their media existence being defined solely by men, and that not all women have even been portrayed in the media much at all. Well, it looks like you are right, end all heterosexual romances and the problem is solved.

606. Trekman93 - May 22, 2013

Hey guys. I got another theory about why Khan’s appearance drastically changed how it did in this movie. Besides the theories about that Admiral Marcus altered his face so he would look completely different. Or that Harrison is lying about actually being Khan, which is not even possible now because he really is Khan.

So, here’s the theory:

When the Narada arrived, the universe that emerged as a result had to “adjust” itself. Yes, free will is important and all that, but free will is moot when you consider that Tuvok will no longer exist, and thus no longer travel back to early 21st century Earth. Yes, he’s just one person on a crew, but this this alters events from before The Original Series. Thus, with the branching of the timelines, the new timeline underwent immediate adjustments to the past and future to account for the changes occurring throughout it. Technology becomes more or less advanced depending on events, and that’s 53 instances from five crews, imagine how often Starfleet has to deal with time travel! They’ve got a department, Temporal Investigations, devoted to it. We know that it becomes a regular thing in the future, that Time Ships join star ships in the fleet. The end result of all of this is that there is no past canon to hold sacred. Khan could’ve been any race, any nationality. He doesn’t have to be thought of as the same Khan, instead, he’s the result of the idea of Khan; an inevitability in the timeline, but one that could be expressed in a number of ways. Everything about the timeline and old chronology, even things established as having happened before in the Prime timeline can be ignored or accepted as having happened differently.

607. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#593. Ritz:

Right you are, Ritz. I had forgotten Kira and Odo (which is interesting as I adored Kira. Just adored her). Thank you for reminding me. :)

608. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

Maybe it is just me, but I have not watched these movies and seen Uhura as “just Spock’s girlfriend.” Just like with TOS, I never saw Uhura as “just the space secretary.”

Both incarnations stand for something, and both versions have something to offer, and both deserve to be admired for what they do and have done for the Trek universe.

609. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Honestly I would like to see Uhura kicking butt. We know Zoe can rock action movies. Let her smack some space bizzatches down and then let people try and whine about how she’s just the girlfriend.

610. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@609

No! Because then, we’ll see Uhura too much in the movie, and she already gets too much action, I mean she is only a communications officer, so she shouldn’t even be off the bridge anyway and oh yeah BONES….

Have I covered all the bases yet?

611. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Uhura gets too much action? Pffff……………….

612. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@611

Pardon me, with the internet, it is tough to convey tone.

That was me being cheeky.

I can’t even count how many complaints I have seen about Uhura…many times contradicting, sometimes even from the same people.

613. Ahmed - May 22, 2013

The only scene where Uhura did something useful was when she was trying to negotiate with the Klingon leader. The rest of the time, she was either scared for her boyfriend, or arguing with him during a dangerous mission and crying or something.
I’d say either give her good material to work on or keep her at the comm.

614. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

~mouth forms O of comprehension~

Aaaah :D

Ahem. Of course yeah, like seeing Uhura doing anything would TOTALLY SUCK OMG what was I thinking.

In actuality, I am an Uhura fiend. I would have loved this movie to have been Uhura Into Darkness featuring the fearless but feminine Captain Uhura with her genius Vulcan loveslave Cmdr Spock and her crew of loyal minions going forth to fight space villainy.

615. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 612 MelyBelle44

I was one of the people who lamented the shift to Kirk-Spock-Uhura in favor of Kirk-Spock-Bones. But then I realized that it had nothing to do with which characters were featured, but rather it was because I was comparing Kirk-Spock-Bones dialogue for adults with childish Kirk-Spock-Uhura in Into Darkness.

616. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#605 Sam:

Ab hominem. Why am I not surprised? Once again, to quote Rowling, “scary and vehemenant cyber gang warfare”. Did we miss the part where I said “I’d rather not see…”. The use of “I” generally means ‘personal opinion’. Obviously romance is not going to be obliterated from film. However, I would like sexist stereotypes to stop. The critics agree with me. As did the 200,000+ women and mothers who signed the “Keep Merida Brave” petition (and before you ask, yes I signed it, and would happily sign it again).

The fact that *you* like a fictional romance so you’re perfectly willing to let sexist stereotypes remain? I may not say ‘you need to examine your priorities’ to your face, but I’m certainly thinking it. Sexism is a real issue which represses women daily, even in western civilization, and there is no way, not even if one squinted with one eye and had the other eye closed, does that take second place to a preoccupation with a fictional romance.

Well, it looks like you are right, end all heterosexual romances and the problem is solved.

Faulty Causation:

The causation fallacies known as oversimplification and exaggeration occur whenever the series of actual causes for an event are either reduced or multiplied to the point where there is no longer a genuine, causal connection between the alleged causes and the actual effect. In other words, multiple causes are reduced to just one or a few (oversimplification) or a couple of causes are multiplied into many (exaggeration).

… Nice fallacy use there. Question though, does this tactic actually work for you? :)

617. dmduncan - May 22, 2013

Sitting in a hotel room right now. If everything goes as planned, I’ll be seeing STID again tonight.

Though I can’t recognize BC as Khan or his acting as Khan-like, when considered on its own he did give a damn fine performance.

Regarding the non-Indian candidate-actors who can actually LOOK the part of Khan, I don’t think anyone would have out-performed the charismatic Mark Strong in that role, including BC. In all his projects Strong is STRONG.

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1431937536/nm0835016

I now expect, however, that I’ve compartmentalized the controversy and that my second viewing will not be experientially fractured. I know that if I focus on his performance rather than who he’s supposed to be, I’ll enjoy his contribution throughout the film.

618. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

In part 3 can we get slower starship battles?

I would like to see the Enterprise commanded by Kirk use his tactical smarts to outsmart the opponent. Using asteroids, nebulas, moons etc chip away at enemy’s ship until both vessels are down to a pawn and kirk converts his pawn into a queen and we have check mate.

I miss seeing the red alert and klaxxon going off, reeeeeeuuuut reeeeeuuuuuut reeeeeeuuuuuuttttt red light flashing, shields up, fair tactical fight, not enterprise vs some big alient ship or big secret starship. Comparable starships dueling it out, coming down to skill and guts.

I was really hoping in seeing Kirk duel it out with Khan spaceship vs spaceship, intel vs intel, ego vs ego, guts vs guts, winner buys beer or something.

619. Sam - May 22, 2013

Haha #610 melybelle44

I was just about to say that it baffles me that half the folks on here complain Uhura didn’t do enough. while the other half complain she did so much that she replaced Bones. Then you have those who say that her being in a loving committed and mutually consenting relationship with Spock is degrading, but then say Carol Marcus in undies is totally fine. Also, when Uhura does something emotional or unprofessional, she is a bad officer and should be ashamed of herself, but when its the dudes, its totally cool, and funny and/or heart warming and human

But the biggest thing for me is how so many complain that Uhura having feelings and expressing those feelings and caring for another character is wrong and a downgrade from TOS and sexist, but then wax poetically about Spock, Kirk, McCoy and every other guy in the film having feelings and caring for each other oh so much. So what I’m getting here is that the white guys can do whatever they want. Feel whatever they want, express it whenever they want, take actions whenever they want, especially if those actions demonstrate how much they care for other white guys. However, the black lady better fit some perfect standard of being tough, but not too tough, strong, but not too strong, in your face, but not too in your face, be all about her job, but not too much about her job, have more screen time, but also have less screen time and be caring and loving but not too caring and loving and most certainly not caring and loving while dating Spock, otherwise she is a blight on womanhood an is ruining all the focus on bromance.

620. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

*Ad Hominem… need more caffeine.

621. Ritz - May 22, 2013

I recently realized how much differently I watch it and TOS and DS9 now that I am an adult. When I watched as a kid it was ‘Awesome spaceships, cool fight scene, Kirk yelling Khaaaan, this is all so cool!. But re-watching as an adult I see the subtle and profound themes of equality and freedom for all people, social commentary, the moral, psychological, and demoralizing consequences of a holocaust on both the victims and the perpetrators, what it means to be human, and in TWOK, themes of aging, loss, death, hope, and friendship/family.

And the thing with STID is that I feel that my viewing of it would have been the same as a child as it is now – lots of cool stuff but without those things that as an adult I appreciate about Trek (or any film/TV for that matter). To top it off, STID was beyond just ‘childish’ as it was almost anti-Trek (bordering on sexist).

I guess what I am trying to say is that what I have come to appreciate about *most* of classic Trek (e.g TOS and DS9) is that it is for adults. Yet it also manages to have cool action and such. New Trek – not so much.

622. Sky - May 22, 2013

I would have liked for Uhura to be recognized at the end of STID for her role in saving Spock and Kirk’s lives. I’ve seen the movie twice now, and clearly her actions allowed Spock to live, Kirk to live, and for Khan to be captured. That’s big. She deserved more than just a mere mention by McCoy (McCoy deserved more as well). A small scene of her and McCoy being handed a pad and letting them know that they’ve been given a commendation wouldn’t have taken that long. We get it, Spock and Kirk are good friends (although to me it seemed very forced & pretentious) so I’m hoping the writers will use a small hammer with it next time instead of beating us over the head with it using an anvil. It’s not necessary, and it ends up diminishing other characters and relationships.

623. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

OMG Kirk using his tactical smarts. REMAKE BALANCE OF TERROR from TOS. It would be AAWWWWEEESOME! Def my fave TOS ep. Cannot resist Mark Lenard and Romulan cunning.

624. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

The scene of the argument on the shuttlecraft was valid and it was more than just a lover’s quarrel. Uhura said that Spock would not talk about the issues at all and since the problem surfaced and had clearly been bothering Kirk as well, then there was no better time than to discuss it openly where they were. They were on their way to Kronos with presumably some time before they arrived and the three of them were alone.

The issues were not only personal but also professional in nature. This was clearly spelled in the conversation between Kirk and Uhura in the earlier lift scene. It was about Spock’s general behaviour – as in Spock constantly second-guessing Kirk’s every command etc.

For goodness sake, connect the dots…

As for the sarcastic comment about Dr McCoy having “magic blood” that can do incredible things and yet no be able to cure the common cold – well, we have similar today – successful organ transplants occur daily around the world and yet still no cure for the common cold.

Dr McCoy does not yet know of any possible harmful side effects that this blood serum could have on the tribble or Kirk, but so far so good – Often things that appear at first “magical” are not always what they seem. Hopefully, for Kirk, all is OK, and Kirk may be one of the lucky few. Perhaps it may have something to do with Kirk’s unusual immune system, which in other circumstances, plays up as in him have a much more severe reaction to a vaccine than is usual – ref. large, swollen hands and numb tongue…

625. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#623

:)

626. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@613

Ah yes, that little incident of beaming down to a moving ferry, and stopping Harrison from killing Spock…that wasn’t useful at all.

@619

Standing ovation….seriously, I am not sure I could create a better description of Uhura/Saldana’s plight when it comes to the Trek fandom.

@622

Totally agree that Kirk and Spock’s friendship was a little forced. Again, they have only known each other for a few months. I like the Kirk/Spock friendship, but honestly, whether TOS or ST09, I’ve actually always seen Bones and Kirk as closer friends, and appreciated their friendship more. But, this movie could have moved them in the direction of becoming friends without, like you said, using an anvil. There were some scenes when I cringed, because I thought to myself “I can just hear the fanboys squealing and crying tears of joy into their popcorn right now. Kirk looked at Spock! They’re in love!”

627. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

@somethoughts also potential for Spock angst coz obvs, Romulans, Momma etc etc. Plus Uhura would get to SPEAK ROMULAN.

628. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

That reactor scene was gold, I tried my hardest not to cry and look like a sissy. Thank god for big 3D glasses hehe I heard a lot of sniffling and ppl crying. Dam you boborci!!!

629. Ahmed - May 22, 2013

@ 626. MelyBelle44 – May 22, 2013

“Ah yes, that little incident of beaming down to a moving ferry, and stopping Harrison from killing Spock…that wasn’t useful at all. ”

oh yeah, she kept firing phaser couple times trying to stun the mighty Khan without any success !!!

630. WicketSC - May 22, 2013

“603. William Bradley – May 22, 2013
You have forgotten that Khan never had magic blood before.

Suddenly, now he does! And it is so magical that it reanimates Tribbles! Why, a dead Tribble just happens to be lying around! And McCoy just happens to inject it with Khan’s blood to, you know, see what happens!

And it springs back to life! And so does Kirk!

Yay!!!!”

Uhhm, not forgetting, I just understand that Star Trek is a world created by writers who take creative license. Much like Kahn recognizing Chekov in TWOK. Kahn carries on like they spent half the episode of Space Seed breaking bread together, when Chekov was no where to be found in the actual episode. Just because I did not see it, does not mean my imagination can’t come up with something like Kahn may have run into Chekov while waiting to get into the Enterprise’s mens toilet or something. Who knows, who cares. I might think about that for 2 seconds and move on. I just loved the movie for what it was.

I do not sit around dissecting every single thing looking for something in canonical history to justify every plot point. It is a work of fiction, not historical facts. In Star Trek, canon is created by whoever Paramount has given the bag of money too. Right now, that is boborci, JJ and the gang. I just enjoy the movies without turning it into a forensic deconstruction of everything I see on the screen. Loved this movie too.

631. boborci - May 22, 2013

552. sam

Fascinating.

632. K Leonora - May 22, 2013

Cumberbatch was a MF Bad A** Khan!!!
Whole cast did their roles proud, was the best movie this year by far!

633. boborci - May 22, 2013

604. dont knw where we are going next but have some intincts. also waana hear what you all think.

634. USS Enterprise B - May 22, 2013

Hey Bob, I LOVED Into Darkness! Seen it twice, going again soon! Fantastic work. I am very curious to know what were some of the toughest decisions you had to make for this movie when you were writing it? Did you always know it would be Khan?

635. USS Enterprise B - May 22, 2013

Also… did you ever consider keeping Kirk dead? I really thought he was dead… of course I’m so happy he’s alive. It would have been quiet an interesting ending…

636. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

I know this is not a popular opinion, and I will probably get reamed up and down for it. And it would never happen, because people would be showing up with pitchforks.

I would love to see Captain Spock in the next one. I know that in TOS, he wasn’t interested in command. And, I know Kirk is the captain, and quite honestly, I don’t know where you would put him if he wasn’t captain.

Just from this movie, I was really impressed by Spock’s command skills (and Sulu’s? omg, can you say HOT) but Spock seemed to have a clear knack for it. He was directing people, calm under fire, and even Kirk himself said that Spock was the guy they needed in the chair.

New timeline, new universe….hey why not? Well, my only complaint would be that gold would not look nearly as yummy as Science blue, but that’s just me.

637. Sam - May 22, 2013

@Trekkiegal63
My main point is that what may look like a sexist portrayal to you, may not look like one to another woman, based off of her own life experiences, background and interests. That what you may see as a badly written romance may look wonderful to another woman. So if you were to ask a writer to change a relationship because you find certain aspects sexist or degrading, and another female comes along and says she is fine with the things you find sexist and in fact does not find them degrading at all, then who is right and who should be listened to.

Also, I brought up different backgrounds because you mentioned that when women are in relationships, its more often then not done in a sexist manner. But I argue thats not true for all women, because many are underrepresented or missing all together from a good portion of the various types of media. I would also argue that there are different stereotypes and angles to sexism applied to women of various racial backgrounds

So if you with whatever background you have, said for example, you would prefer no more women be depicted as princesses because its done badly and its a stereotype etc, and then lets say a Native American woman came along and said well I want to see more women like myself as princesses because we NEVER get to be princesses, then who gets listened to. You or the Native American lady. And of course it gets even more complicated then that because no group of people is monolithic, so you could easily find another Native American who also wants no princesses.

So if you and many others feel Uhura was badly written in her relationship and therefore should be taken out of it, and then on the other side many other women disagree and loved Uhura and her romance, who is right, and who gets listened to. Are those of us who love the s/u relationship just blindly accepting sexism and sexist portrayals of female characters, or are you and the others who hate it being sexist and applying double standards to the lone female character in the main cast. Because sexism, just like every other ism is deeply ingrained in our society, so we all internalize it. So if we are all affected in some way by bias and prejudice, and if we all have different backgrounds and points of views, by whose “feminist” standard do we shape all heterosexual romances and female characters in the media.

638. Ahmed - May 22, 2013

@633. boborci

An original epic story, and no more revenge stories. Two movies were more than enough to cover that!

More of Trek trio Kirk-Spock-McCoy would be great.

639. Karen - May 22, 2013

#619 Sam

Brilliantly put! Thank you.

#440

And that was brilliant too. I think you summed up Spock/Uhura beautifully.

I really love that relationship. I love the strength and maturity of it.

640. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Princess Uhura would be TOTALLY FINE with me.

641. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 633 boborci

I would like to see a ‘grown-up crew.’ I don’t necessarily mean that in a crass manner. But I think we need to get past the young people growing up in space theme, Kirk bouncing between captain and first officer, Spock-Uhura relationship problems, and have more of an adult movie where the Enterprise crew acts like an established crew of the best ship in the fleet.

642. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@633

Some Pon Farr action would be fine by me.

For no reason other than me selfishly wanting to see Zach Quinto shirtless, sweating, and acting like a raging madman (think Kirk beatdown in first film times ten)

Then, they could bring back Ben Cross as Sarek (whom I absolutely adore and have the biggest crush on) to help counsel him through his little problem. Yes, I know Sarek cannot help much with Pon Farr, but I had to come up with an excuse to see Sarek again.

643. Ash - May 22, 2013

More Uhura = hell yes!!

More Spock/Uhura romance and couple issues? God no.

I know there are a couple of..umm..lets say intense fangirls that might rip into me for saying it, but I always found the romance pretty lame. Did nothing for me but fill time. If it continues I won’t be pissed but I will be annoyed that I have to sit through more of those scenes to get to the ones that I actually care about. I can find romantic angst anywhere, I kinda would prefer it stay away from Trek. And yea, I’ll say it, I miss my Kirk/Spock/Bones trio. Sue me.

Anyways, just my thoughts. Things are heating up with this topic lol so before I get yelled at I”ll just show myself to the door thanks :)

644. caseylee4ts - May 22, 2013

@boborci 633

I think we should see the Klingon conflict that was hinted at in STID. It should be a couple years into their five-year mission so there is room for growth (and stories in the comics and novels and the fact that there will be a few years between movies). The bad guy should be someone familiar; someone like Kor, Koloth, Kang, or maybe even Chang if the hair is an issue with the helmets. Perhaps there is an undercover Klingon agent aboard the Enterprise (Arne Darvin) who is discovered by Tribble. There should be epic space battles. Maybe Kirk and McCoy are captured a la Star Trek VI. And it all ends with the Organian Peace Treaty.

Maybe we could also see what the team can come up with for Cardassians! Their drinks were available at local Earth bars, so maybe there’s no conflict?

I’d also love to see what Andorians and Tellarites look like in this universe!

645. Ahmed - May 22, 2013

@ 642. MelyBelle44 – May 22, 2013

“@633 Some Pon Farr action would be fine by me. ”

The follow up comics to STID “Star Trek After Darkness” will have the Pon Farr action that you seek!

According to Mark Martinez, “Star Trek #21, the first issue of the Star Trek After Darkness story arc is currently scheduled for May 29.”

And here is a preview:

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/05/star-trek-after-darkness-comic/#slideid-144199

646. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 638 Sam

Maybe my view on this issue as a man does not count, but seeing women in a movie written and defined by male characters and only written in a stereotypical fashion bothers me quite a bit. I find it unsettling that a movie, much less a Trek movie, would perpetuate the kinds of themes this movie does. When watching STID I felt like Uhura was written as Spock’s partner – i.e. that’s was the main point to the character. And if we disagree on that OK, but its tough to deny that Carol Marcus was defined not like the original Marcus as a prolific scientist, but rather as eye candy for Kirk and the daughter of Admiral Marcus (two men), not her own person. And that is the problem.

647. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@645

Yes, I know, but it’s not flesh-and-blood Zach Quinto, so it means nothing to me. Haha.

I think what would be really cool would be to find out one of the core characters is a baddie. Like….they are out there, cruising in deep space, just chillin, and some kind of conflict comes up, and they start to realize that only the people on the Enterprise could be involved. Then they realize that only certain people on the Enterprise have information, so it becomes sort of a Whodunit Star Trek style. Yes, there can be action here and there, but most of the film is psychological, trying to figure out who the mole is.

648. Phil - May 22, 2013

Well, here’s a consideration for the third installment – it was Kirks five year mission that put him on the map. TOS gave us the day in, day out stuff of exploring, but that’s mundane stuff…even defeating the Doomsday Machine probably would not be enough. Enterprise, far from home and without Starfleet to back him up, comes across something that tests the skills and mettle of the crew with galaxy wide ramifications. Please, no whale probes….pissed off god-like beings, or more vendetta stories. It’s possible to tell smart, action packed stories…Guy Ritchies Sherlock Holmes comes to mind….

649. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

A great big massive war with loads of explosions and death and general carnage amid a barrage of laser guns and everyone beaten and bruised and the Enterprise limping along all knackered and smashed up while Kirk & Co engage in some tense Balance of Terror style chess game with the bad guy.

Simple.

Oh and Spock and Uhura making out, at least once. While soldering the comms array, which obvs got damaged in the fight.

650. Sam - May 22, 2013

Bob Orci, if you are reading this. I do not care what you do with the actual story, but please just create an entirely original story. I would really like to see these characters in completely different situations from the TOS time line.

I would also like for every single character to get a moment to shine and some personal aspects of them revealed on the screen so that they feel like even more well rounded characters.

If you are so inclined to keep the s/u romance, which I am very much in favor of but will not beg you to keep, could you please make sure to give Uhura enough things to do outside of the relationship so that people who may feel she is defined by the relationship, might feel more at peace about it.

I would also like to see Uhura speak another alien language and be included on away missions. Along with this, if you could find some way to increase the Kirk/Spock/McCoy interactions for those who love that dynamic, while not decreasing Uhura’s role or importance, that would also be great.

I would also like to applaud you for even trying to make a female character have any significant emotional importance in a narrative that has so much focus on the men. Even though it might not seem like it, I think that takes real guts and I admire you for it.

651. caseylee4ts - May 22, 2013

#647 @MelyBelle44

I like that idea a lot!

652. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

@boborci space quest to save x, return of pike, pirate mudd, fight vs nature and comparable ship submarine style battle vs kirk equal.

Kirk and Spock steal cloaking technology from Klingons, similair scene to NIberu one, running etc.

Enterprise needs to cloak for space quest.

653. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#637 Sam:

I would say that, as in all things, a balance needs to be established. Very, very few female protagonists are not involved in a relationship (or involved in the foreplay leading up to one) thus the stereotype gets perpetuated. How to combat this so that both women within relationships and single women are portrayed? There needs to be more single women so the balance doesn’t tip too far to one side, as it does now.

Male protagonists already have that balance.

How do we solve the problem of gender related stereotypes as in defining all women through their relation to men? Give female protagonist a backstory, some characterizations beyond ‘they are really into the guy they’re seeing!”

How to solve the balance of racial stereotypes? Show more well-rounded characters (as in fully developed characters) of all ethnicities.

As far as race goes though? I, myself, am Hispanic. I’m very familiar with ethnic stereotyping within film. However, having said that I believe strongly that a romance does not make a character ‘better’. A romance does not make a character ‘more interesting’. Each and everyone of us are individuals and should be judged on our own merit, regardless of our ethnic origins or our relationship status. I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again, it is illegal in my state, California, to even ask marital status on job applications and in interviews. It is considered discriminatory to do so. This thinking that a person is more ‘sexy’ or ‘lovable’ because they happened to get the great guy everyone wants (or vice versa… the guy manages to get the hot girl)? Very, very dangerous thinking. One that shouldn’t be embraced, regardless of origins.

As for those of you who don’t think this trend disturbing? I would say you’re letting your love of a fictitious romance supersede relevant, real life, social commentary. The critics are noticing the gender imbalance portrayed in film. Geena Davis set up an organization meant to educate the public on the problem called seejane.org. The APA (american psychological organization) has noticed it and written reports on it. And women are noticing it (google “Keep Merida Brave”), which is why sites like jezebel, and everyday sexism and everyday feminism have about ten times more of population of commenters than say, a site like this one which is very specifically geared. So, I’m sorry, but those of you who excuse these gender-related stereotypes as ‘not that bad’ are in the minority of a minority (i.e.you are the minority of a Trek-specific population).

Don’t believe me? Look at the number of signatures on the “Keep Merida Brave” petition, which was done online so it also discludes those who don’t have an online presence, and compare it to the number of people who voted in this poll. Or, better yet, go to Jezebel, and count the number of comments per story. We haven’t reached 20,000 here, even on our more ornery days. ;)

654. MelyBelle44 - May 22, 2013

@646

Curious…

Within 10 seconds of meeting Carol Marcus, her stellar resume is read, and she is established as very intelligent and skilled, and the prolific scientist you want her to be.

We see her doing her job as a scientist.

We see her risk her life, and willing to lay down her life for people she barely knows, just because it is the right thing to do.

We see her refusing Southern gentleman Bones’ demands to save her own life in order to save his.

Yes, she was in her underwear for like…two seconds.

I am confused how she has been relegated to “just” eye candy. And, I am far beyond trying to defend Uhura’s worth to people who don’t get it.

655. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Nah, the Enterprise doesn’t cloak. She NEVER cloaks, it’s like a thing. Like….it’s the plucky crew and their brains that save the day, not her ability to cloak. But I am def down for the submarine space battle. Fo sho.

656. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@401. porthoses bitch,
“BTW….All the people who are vetching about “magic” blood ( and I hate that line “special blood”) but it’s set up well when Khan uses his blood on the little girl. I know McCoy has no knowledge of that but it’s there.”

Yes it is, and that’s the hook they should have used instead of the overt almost comical tribble scene to make sure the audience didn’t miss it — and they most definitely didn’t.

What would have been clever would have been for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy going over the reports of Harrison’s bombing of the archives (yes, a scene in the briefing room!) in preperation for the arrival on the Klingon homeworld, and McCoy recognizing the name of Noel Clarke’s character, not just as the suicide bomber, but as the name of the little girl who was mysteriously cured of an incurable disease the same day, as reported in his Starfleet medical journals. Not only is this a subtle reminder of what Khan’s blood is capable of, but it also demonstrates a bit of what McCoy does with his time when not treating patients or loitering on the bridge (you know like Scotty enjoys a good technical journal).

Then when McCoy draws Harrison’s blood, he’s operating on a suspicion. Now he doesn’t have to inject it in anything, he merely studies it and confirms the connection between what he learned from his collegues at the hospital, and recalls that knowledge at the appropriate time.

No dead Tribbles springing back to life, no enhanced human blood able to revive a totally different species! Just calm, rational, good old fashioned detective work that pays off at the opportune moment, and might actually surprise the audience by not telegraphing the ending 15 minutes ahead of time.

657. An Old Codger - May 22, 2013

I’ve seen it 3 times; each time (Fri, Mon, Wed) in a respectably full theater and each time, I enjoy it and notice something new to think about.

Bob Orci: Follow your instincts for the next film because listening to, and trying to adapt to, the ideas posted here will drive you to drink :-) and remember, the whole movie does not have to take place in a day.

658. Sam - May 22, 2013

@646 Ritz

I disagree with you about Uhura, but I will also say that I would like more for her outside of the romance in the next film. I just do not think the romance has to go away for that to be done.

As for Carol Marcus I have not discussed her characterization yet, so I guess I will now. My main issue was the underwear scene. I have no issues with women being in undies or having sexuality displayed on the screen. However, I do at times have issues when women are half naked or naked, or stripping down while the men on the screen in the same scene with them are not. Mainly because it feels like they are being presented as sex objects while the men are being presented as characters to be taken seriously. I am perfectly fine with sex scenes in which both parties are in underwear or naked, or scenes that take place at the beach and everyone is half naked.

I also agree that she could have used more development, but here is the main issue with that. There are so many characters to develop with just the main cast before you even bring in guest starring characters. Along with that, so much focus already goes to Kirk, Spock, and the friendship of Kirk and Spock that it leaves little room to develop everyone else. Now I would personally love to see some of kirk and Spock’s screen time scaled back just the tiniest bit so we can develop everyone else better. But I bet many others world argue against it. Heck, many already hate that Uhura has more screen time and say she is possibly replacing bones. So then it becomes a case of do we switch things up so that there is more equality and diversity, which will obviously make some fans mad, or do we keep it the same and ignore the gender and even racial imbalances.

I personally say take 10 minutes away from the 2 male lead characters and spread it among everyone else. Ten minutes could go a long way in fleshing out everyone else better. However I’m sure others will disagree. So I’m not sure what to do. Although just in the case of Carol in the current film, maybe if they skipped the underwear scene and gave her a background developing scene or something, that might have been a better choice on the part of the writing team.

659. Karen - May 22, 2013

@599 Ritz

Actually, classic Trek Uhura said very little other than Hailing frequencies open, Captain. Once she got to cling to Kirk and say, I’m frightened, Captain. Every so often she was let off the bridge. Within the context of the 1960s she was a radical political statement — culminating in the kiss with Kirk in Plato’s Stepchildren – but even so she, like every other female character in the series at that time, was impacted by its gender politics.

In a lot of ways women have made so much progress that what came before has been obscured, especially for those fans who were born in the 80s and later. In which case, I suggest you check out Mad Men. Today we live in a world where women compete in the Olympic triathlon. But Kathy Switzer had to lie and cheat her way into a marathon back in the 70s because women were banned. The first women’s Olympic marathon was run in LA. Joan Benoit won it. Those LA Olympics were in 1984.

Things weren’t always the way they are now. And for some of us women fans, seeing the general rise in sexism around us, reading commentary in forums like this, about women and their bodies and their visibility and how they’re taking time and space away from men with their girl cooties and their emotions, watching on the big screen a supposedly brilliant and accomplished woman being reduced to a pair of tits — this is distressing.

And even more distressing is then reading the hateful commentary by men who are angry that we would dare open our mouths to express our dismay. And who berate the Trek team for letting girl cooties onto their bridge.

I think this Uhura is wonderful. She is proactive and accomplished and courageous — and she is acknowledged as all these things by the man who loves her, Spock. She has a million times more agency than classic Trek Uhura, which is as it should be. I don’t believe for a moment she’s only being defined by her relationship with Spock. I think that to say she’s diminished because she loves him is very sad. It astonishes me to think some people think that a well-founded character – male or female – can’t be smart, brave, proactive and in a loving, committed relationship. And that the portrayal of that relationship is somehow a terrible crime. Honestly, I think that kind of complaint says way more about the complainer than the Trek team.

Above all, surely, Trek is about the exploration of humanity in all its frailty and glory. That means people love and fight and make up and break up and fail and succeed and learn and grow — in the context of space, the final frontier. They experience these emotions within friendships, bromances, romances and as enemies.

I think one of the main problems, and it’s insurmountable, is that the first Trek movies were big screen continuations of the series, and in tv there is time and space to explore many, many facets of the story. But this new series has been rebooted as film, and film operates under very different rules. Some characters are always going to be shortchanged. And when you put the spotlight on one aspect of the big picture ie the Spock/Uhura relationship, that means it’s not shining somewhere else. It’s a juggling act. And there is no way on God’s little blue earth that the new Trek team is going to win. For every fan they satisfy, they’re going to piss off five more.

660. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#633. boborci:

I would ask for a philosophical discussion between Spock, Kirk, McCoy AND Uhura (bringing the logos, ethos and pathos dynamics into play would be wonderful) and a stronger female presence. Humor on the same vein as STID (i.e. “I am expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously sir… to which are you referring?”) also wouldn’t be amiss. Thank you for asking. :)

661. Phil - May 22, 2013

@656…except, when McCoy discovers it’s properties, he whips out the DNA scan, clones the miracle properties, and orders the entire crew inoculated – fire that bit of info off to Starfleet Medical, and ta-da, you have just created a fleet of super sailors who CANNOT die. Go ahead, Klingons, the Klingon with the knife cutting 1000 throats proverb my ass!! We can’t die!! Give it your best shot, you ridge headed weenies, everything grows back…

Harrison blood is this movies Genesis device, guys. That, and the Klingons know you have it and are assuming the worst. As Orci and company have already headed down the cloak and dagger road, the next movie will be more of the same.

662. PoorQueequeg - May 22, 2013

Sex pollen.

Nuff said.

663. Robman007 - May 22, 2013

@boborci…

…I’d probably stay clear of anything that came from TOS. Easter eggs are a good thing, but you’ve seen the illogical reaction that fans have when you take a villain and re-do him.

I’d take a look at the Indiana Jones flicks, more or less Last Crusade or something simliar and try to adapt a fun adventure like that. The crew is out to find something/fix something/heal something or recover an artifact and they have some badguys on their tail…maybe chased by the Klingon Kor…

Never mention Transwarp beaming. You’ll get too many plot induced headaches out of that one.

If Earth HAS to be involved, at least show that it has some level of planetary defense system. I know the joke in Trek is that all the ships take off when the 1701 is in town, but that should not be the case. Hell, this movie alone showed that the Klingons should just invade Earth. NOBODY bothers to show up to provide help, the starbase just disappears, they have no planetary defense grid (ala Babylon 5) and starfleet seems to be run by wimpy little do gooders who need a guy like Kirk to kick them outta their collective slumps…

IF you have a starship battle, please, please please DO NOT make the Enterprise some pathetic, weak little ship. The TNG era did that ALL THE TIME, and the Enterprise was a bit of a turd in this film.

A fast paced action adventure in which the crew works together will be great..no revenge plot. You can have a evil, backtstabbing Klingon as the villain, just no revenge..and not Giant ships of doom.

Although, if you must re-do an episode of TOS..look at “A Taste of Armageddon”…such a great story….or “Errand of Mercy”…

Don’t mean to sound nitpicky, so don’t take that the wrong way. I’ve loved both films and I’m a fan of your work, especially Fringe.

OH…watch TOS. I know you have, but really watch it. The ideas will come…don’t watch TNG/DS9 or any other show…just TOS. TOS and the other Treks are two different beasts. Treat them as such and you’ll come up with a great story.

664. Mcflycat - May 22, 2013

Will the real Bob Orci please stand up?

665. Sam - May 22, 2013

@ 653 Trekkiegal63

I agree we need more balance, but more balance should not mean, no romances involving women depicted on screen. I also think we need more female protagonists to begin with, as protagonists are usually the most developed characters.

I would also like to further express that in order for us to get more female protagonists on the big or small screen then we all have to stop “worshiping” male characters and more specifically glamorizing bromances and or homo-social relationships between men. There is a dearth of female lead shows and movies in certain genres, and very few shows or movies in any genre that solely focus on women and their relationships with other women. That is very problematic. And yet when people bring this up in the case of lets say, Star Trek, and ask for Uhura to do more and be more, many others say, wait you cannot do that its all about the guys. They say the trinity is holy and golden and any woman who gets near it is ruining it with her icky girl cooties.

I see very few people actually supporting women being in leading roles when it comes to certain genre’s and even at times ripping any efforts made to shreds. Add to that all the remakes that are done of old shows and films that have so much race and gender fail and it gets even worse. Because then you have everyone with their nostalgia goggles going, well I know such and such film is sexist and needs more women but we just love this male dynamic so very much and its classic, so oh well tough. Or on the racial end, yes we know there are no important characters who are not white, but you cant change that because you will ruin it and such an such non white race cant play this part anyway because its unrealistic.

So I would argue that we need Hollywood writers and producers to start creating more original works with female leads and many diverse characters right out of the gate. And that many of us need to support these efforts even if they aren’t always perfect, in hopes that over time things will change. I also think that in the case of remaking shows and films that have serious gender and racial imbalances, some of us need to put down our privilege and entitlement, and be open to switching things up so that women and characters who are not white can have some actual importance and development.

666. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 654 MelyBelle44

Well we are told she is smart and intelligent. OK fine. And she disarms a torpedo – which is a nice scene. But that’s about it in terms of actual character development.

667. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 660 Karen

Maybe we saw a different movie. But I would say 95% of Uhura’s screentime is there just to advance the Spock/Uhura drama. Yes she is strong-wiled, brave, etc when she gets to star in her scene with the Klingons (and its an awesome scene). But 95% of the character’s screentime revolves around her relationship with Spock. Yet lots of Spock and Kirk and Bones have screentime exploring other facets to their lives. This perpetuates the idea that women in movies must play the girlfriend/mom/wife/love-interest/eye-candy role. I don’t what that in Star Trek.

668. BotanyBay - May 22, 2013

@633, boborci

Alright here’s my story. You probably won’t see it in this long comment section but hey, let’s see what I can come up with. I’m thinking of the next two movies (hopefully we get at least 4 with this cast, 3 would be disappointing!)

Star Trek Into The Unknown (2016):
We join the Enterprise about a year into their five year mission. The cast interactions/humor and all of the first two movies have been great…keep that up please! The ship comes across a strange new planet that can be realized in a way no Trek planet has before. Almost Avatar-level of alien plants, animals, etc. Aliens are truly alien, but bear some human characteristics to make us feel for them (think Prawns in District 9, they don’t need to be insectoid just really alien!). The crew has to feel almost alone out there in deep space and on this truly new world. The aliens could maybe have strange tech (though not as good as enterprise) but be kind of telepathic in an almost Talosian way. Maybe either have a lone Klingon or Gorn ship out here already having found this planet and trying to exploit its resources. Enterprise prevails, maybe Kirk decides to not report the world for fear the Federation may want it as well. This movie will take a lot of creativity to make work…a movie about exploring something new. But if pulled off it could be really cool.

Star Trek To The Future (2019) (ya know, naming it like this is kinda tough I feel bad for you guys needing more titles!):

Shortly after previous film, Enterprise has a TOS esque mission/opening scene (like STID opened with). Enterprise is reached via a subspace radio saying that war with Klingon has began. However since they are pretty far the message was quite laggy/delayed. Plus, it takes them some time to get home. Kirk’s love for the Enterprise should really be focused upon, and after fighting over the fate of the alien planet in the last film Spock/Uhura are better than ever.
En route to Earth, Enterprise is intercepted by a Klingon cruiser. The captain is the principal villain. A battle occurs between the two vessels, which end up being evenly matched (something important since this Enterprise has never gotten to have a fair fight yet). Several other Earth ships arrive, and the Klingon ship flees. Kirk/Spock are briefed about how Klingons began the way 10 months ago and how the battles have gone by some admiral. Also, hints of a battle/firefight in London are explained subtly.
Other stuff can happen, not sure what since I’m just doing this now lol. But eventually a large fleet battle happens, dozens of Fed ships vs. Klingon ones. Think like those battles in DS9 with state of the art FX. Both fleets begin to get heavily damaged. One Klingon ship then hails Enterprise, surprisingly. Kirk answers and a klingon with his helmet is on the view screen. He pulls it off and its…KHHAANNN! He says he and his crew were awakened by rogue Klingon agents attacking that facility and now he and his augments have taken this Klingon vessel. He says he’s going to destroy the Enterprise and warp away for conquest. He beams Kirk to his ship, but when he does the Klingon captain attempts to fight back against Khan/crew. Kirk and the Klingon captain from earlier fight Khan, with Kirk getting the final blow in with a Bat’Leth (spelling?). Kirk and the Klingons still face a ship full of augments, so Kirk trusts the Klingons to beam to Enterprise and leave the supermen. The Enterprise destroys the cruiser and Kirk speaks with the captain, who has heard Khan explain how he helped instigate a war. Somehow a tentative peace is reached.

That was long and not that good, but was fun to write! So I’d like something like that boborci, but dont with much more tact (and I could take/leave a Khan return, but bringing him back was fun since he’s still a popsicle)

669. Ahmed - May 22, 2013

For the 3rd movie, beside a good story & characters development, I hope they will get a new director & keep Damon Lindelof away from Star Trek.

670. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#665 Sam:

So I would argue that we need Hollywood writers and producers to start creating more original works with female leads and many diverse characters right out of the gate. And that many of us need to support these efforts even if they aren’t always perfect, in hopes that over time things will change. I also think that in the case of remaking shows and films that have serious gender and racial imbalances, some of us need to put down our privilege and entitlement, and be open to switching things up so that women and characters who are not white can have some actual importance and development.

Yes. This. You have my full agreement with everything said in this paragraph. Though I would argue that male friendships can also be shown AND females can be given more to do and be more well-rounded. Avengers, for example, manages this balance quite well. It can be done, lady and gentlemen! … but then, I was never one of those who thought Uhura was ‘replacing’ any body to begin with, so I have always shared in your frustration there.

As for romances, my problem isn’t with romance itself, per se, but the way they’re developed at risk of female individual character development and the prevelence in which these romances are shown. Are you familiar with the spoons theory? (google the term ‘the spoon theory’) Only, in this case, a character is given so many scenes, aka spoons, and all of the spoons are used for the romance, and none left for her, the woman – an individual person. So my desire for filmmakers who wish to include a romance in their film…please do not shortchange an individual to create a pair. And I’m not talking about employment – thank you to all of you who have tried to diminish my argument with that (“but kickass Uhura is an officer, too!”… so not the point). I’m talking about life. Likes, dislikes, family, hobbies, the mother/daughter relationship, the female friend/female friend relationship (where they have conversations that don’t revolve around men – yay Bechdel Test!). Basically, show there is more to a woman’s life than her love for her man.

671. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

*ladies and gentlemen… apparently there is not enough caffeine in the world today.

672. Karen - May 22, 2013

@665 Sam

I totally hear you. But here’s a nasty little truth. Whereas women will happily invest in stories about men, and in the bromances that abound in popular fiction (and I am a woman who loves those stories btw), the reverse is not true. Generally speaking, men do not/will not invest in stories with a female lead, or in female bromances (for want of a better term, ugh). Even worse, from a feminist perspective, many women are actively hostile to female characters inserting themselves into stories with popular male characters. I expect entire PhD theses could be written about this phenomenon. I won’t try here. *g* But that’s the harsh reality that modern storytellers are facing. And when writers – notably women – do try to redress that balance for example in the field of spec fic literature, their books do not sell anywhere near the numbers of their male counterparts. Lately, the only strongly female protag story I can think of that’s had any major success is Katniss in Hunger Games.

I don’t know how this issue can be fixed, or rebalanced, or whatever. I think you’re right, I think there needs to be a change. But even changing stuff up is fraught with difficulty. Did you ever see that Geena Davis drama, about her being made VP, I think it was. I got to the scene where she’s in the limo with her husband and kids and she’s asking them what she should do about some major thing or other. And my jaw just dropped. Can you imagine them writing an equivalent scene for Barlet in West Wing? Oh yes, let me just sit down with my wife and daughters so they can tell me how to conduct myself as president. So even when women are nominally presented in positions of power, they’re so often undermined in the next breath.

@667 Ritz

Actually, I think we did. *g* In fact, I think we each and every one of us see a different movie, because we each bring our own filters to the experience.

Having said that, though, while I take your point about how much of her screen time was in relation to Spock — within that context, I thought she was handled really really well. She wasn’t a clinger, she was strong and forthright and independent, she articulated her feelings and her needs without apology, she stood up to him when she thought he was wrong, she challenged him. And when she understood where he was coming from, she forgave him and moved on. Likewise, he treated her with absolute respect, both personally and professionally. I thought that was magic.

673. Sam - May 22, 2013

@667 Ritz.
Isn’t Uhura helping take down khan more about her trying to save a fellow officer, rather then just be a girlfriend to Spock. Yes Spock is her boyfriend, but he is also her fellow officer. Without her help he might be dead, and kirk might be as well. She beams down to make sure Khan is taken alive so that Kirk can be saved and in the process keeps Spock from being killed.

She also is a part of the mission in the beginning. While yes she does offer moral support to Spock, she is also there to help with the mission. someone has to help suit him up and do the releases into the volcano while sulu has the shuttle controls. she makes sense as someone he is comfortable with to help him into his suit, but If not her someone else would have to do it. She also tries to help reestablish communications.

All of the things I mention are still jobs that needed to be done and things someone would have to do and get credit for.

Furthermore, if McCoy figuring out the Khan tribble blood thing is seen as being independent of any personal relationship I call foul. its all about saving his bff. Also, why is he on the away mission with Kirk in the beginning? He’s a doctor, it seems mostly like he is there to support his bff Jim. Also, the whole reason Kirk even wants to go after Harrison so badly is because he wants to avenge Pike’s death, so there is still a personal relationship tie to the mission. Same with Spock going after khan in the end. Many of the actions of the original triumvirate end up some how being connected to an emotional connection they have to each other. Heck, the reason Kirk saves Spock and breaks the rules is because he cares for him.

674. Sam - May 22, 2013

@trekkiegal63
In response to: “I’m talking about life. Likes, dislikes, family, hobbies, the mother/daughter relationship, the female friend/female friend relationship (where they have conversations that don’t revolve around men – yay Bechdel Test!). Basically, show there is more to a woman’s life than her love for her man.”

Ok then perhaps we can encourage the writers to add all that to Uhura on top of her already having an amazing Job that she is kick ass at and a boyfriend she loves along with a place in the emotional core of the story. Though I think TV would be a better format for that much fleshing out.

Also, I would like to add that we do not know that much about what you describe above with regards to anyone who isn’t Kirk,Spock and maybe McCoy. what does Sulu like outside of fencing? whats is his middle name? does he have parents? siblings? how old is he? whats his favorite food or drink? Where in Russia was Chekov born? what does he do for fun? who are his friends outside of the bridge crew? is he dating anyone? Has he had a conversation with anyone that was not work related? All the non Kirk and Spock characters need more if you ask me.

675. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

So is Spock bonded with T’pring in this universe? How’s she with this Uhura thing? I would certainly think Spock would do the right thing and inform her. Next film a vengeful T’Pring (Angelina Joli) kidnaps Spock prime if she can’t have one Spock she’ll have another. Uhura vs.T’pring we’ll get Zoe to do a Rocky-esque montage.

676. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

Bob show us why the Klingons hate Kirk and why Kirk hates the Klingons, also how Kirk is known to be a legend amongst Klingons.

677. Ritz - May 22, 2013

@ 673 Sam

“Furthermore, if McCoy figuring out the Khan tribble blood thing is seen as being independent of any personal relationship I call foul. its all about saving his bff. Also, why is he on the away mission with Kirk in the beginning? He’s a doctor, it seems mostly like he is there to support his bff Jim. Also, the whole reason Kirk even wants to go after Harrison so badly is because he wants to avenge Pike’s death, so there is still a personal relationship tie to the mission”

I think you have clearly missed the point. It’s not about Uhura or anyone else doing things for people they care about. It’s about the women in this movie only being reduced to the girlfriend/wife/love-interest role.

678. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#674 Sam:

All the non Kirk and Spock characters need more if you ask me.

… Wouldn’t be opposed to that. I like all seven characters very much.

One, out of many, reasons I have been a fan of Star Trek 47+ years and counting is that there isn’t any of the main seven characters I dislike. And the seven, together, with individual strengths and weaknesses, create quite the formidibble team. The loss of any one of them would be felt by me. Same goes for TNG, actually, though I admit it took me awhile to warm up to Troi (I initially felt she embodied all the female stereotypes in one character, but thankfully, she was allowed growth in the latter seasons… only to be sterotyped again in Nemesis *grumble*canwesaywomanintherefrigerator*grumble* but yeah, the less said there, the better).

679. Nero (You have me to thank for your Fanboy outrage smooches!!) - May 22, 2013

@675 How do we know she made if off of Vulcan? I hope she did, Sybok on the other hand…..

For some reason a lot of Trek fans in their blind rage at JJ fail to forget that this his universe is a Quantum Reality which means that events that happened in Prime may or may not happen in this one or they may not happen at all. Or Events may happen but in an albeit different and interesting way. That’s the beauty of Neros Incursion

Maybe Spocks family bonded him to someone else? Kirk made Captain 9 years before Prime Kirk did. Prime Kirk Served on the Farragaut and lived through Kodos and where is Kevin Rielly? See the point. Carol and Kirks baby boy might be a little girl. That is the fun of this new reality.

680. Sam - May 22, 2013

@ # 677 Ritz,
but thats what I am saying. To me, all of Uhura’s actions did not have to do with being a girlfriend/wife/love interest. or does simply dating Spock mean that when she is working with him and helps him in any way with job related tasks, that means she is automatically being reduced to a girlfriend.

For example. My mom works with my dad. many times they work on projects together and help each other. But she is not doing it as his wife or lover, but as a colleague. If she were not working with him someone else would and would be doing pretty much the same things she does.

I see it pretty much the same way for Uhura. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, though I respect a lot of your thoughts.

As for Carol, I only saw the film once so I am blanking on what she actually did in the movie. helped with the torpedoes I believe, but I cannot think of anything else. So you have a point about her character from what I can remember.

All in all, I think we should just hope the writers give us more for the women all around. more screen time, more development away from any guys they are attached to, more job tasks and more interactions with each other, on top of getting to keep doing any of the things they already have going for them and without them having to give up any personal relationships be they romantic or platonic.

681. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@661. Phil,
“@656…except, when McCoy discovers it’s properties, he whips out the DNA scan, clones the miracle properties, and orders the entire crew inoculated”

Ha Ha — one problem at a time. You want to introduce a panacea to save your hero? Fine … Just don’t hit me over the head with a sledge hammer when you do it. I don’t need to be spoon fed this pablum …

——————————
“Harrison blood is this movies Genesis device, guys.”

Actually it’s much much worse. At least the Genisis device was a prototype and one time use only, and the guy who cut corners to get it to work got killed, and since he didn’t tell anyone what he did …

682. Riker001 - May 22, 2013

Good and interesting article…sheds some light on the writing and how the team came up with the story…their challenges and the things they are constantly keeping in mind…

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Trek-Darkness-Spoilers-With-Damon-Lindelof-Bryan-Burk-37649.html

683. Craiger - May 22, 2013

One thing I noticed is the incredible range the communicators had. Did they have the same range in TOS. Kirk was at the Klingon Homeworld and could communicate with Scotty in San Fransisco.

684. Matt Wright - May 22, 2013

@ 683 – Yep I noticed that too. No TOS didn’t have that kind of range, nor did TNG, etc. on their own.
However, there’s always the explanation that any external communication would have been routed through the main comm arrays of the ship, so he was just using the communicator as a personal/portable receiver rather than walking over to a wall plate comm and being stuck talking to the wall.

685. Tom - May 22, 2013

I think the Klingons are set up pretty well. I dont think that should be the only storyline. Maybe we should see something not seen in TOS,

I also think there were a few instances where the Shatner scene could have worked in this movie.

Given the 50th anniversary Bob I really think you should revisit doing something like that for Trek 3. I am an unabashed fan of that scene. It was beautifully written. I am not a Shatner or bust guy and have loved both movies but I think the next movie is when something like that scene will make sense

686. Damian - May 22, 2013

602–We Trekkies are particular. Many of us here did love the film. But as Trekkies we nitpick. Actually, in a way, if I were JJ Abrams or Bob Orci (or anyone else on the team), I’d be worried if there wasn’t nitpicking, because that would mean we all stopped caring. Trekkies are an intergral part of the success of Star Trek. It will take Trekkies to encourage CBS to spring for a new TV show, which is what we all want.

I loved STID, right now it ranks #4 on my own list of Trek movies. That’s pretty damn good. The last movie to be that good IMHO was First Contact, another blockbuster Trek film, so it’s in very good company. But there are things that bothered me about it, not enough to ruin it for me, but things maybe if they were tightened up could have made it just a bit better.

Frankly, I’m surprised I liked it as much as I did. In my case, it was probably a good thing I spoiled it for myself and knew Harrison was Khan. I never liked the idea of recasting Khan, but knowing it ahead of time allowed me to be prepared. I knew it was Khan and I was just going to have to deal with it.

687. Craiger - May 22, 2013

Matt good explanation, thanks.

688. Craiger - May 22, 2013

H2 Channel is showing Star Trek: Secrets of the Universe now, with behind the scenes footage of STID.

689. Damian - May 22, 2013

633–Bob. How about a teaser sequence featuring a battle with the Doomsday Machine. Another poster on another board long ago had suggested that, and I can only imagine was you guys could do with that.

I would then move on to a completely original story with little or no ties to an original episode (except the occasional Easter eggs, Trekkies love Easter eggs). And make it something far away from Earth, somewhere where the Enterprise really is alone. Klingons are fine, but try to leave the revenge subplot alone. We know have had 3 movies in a row based at least loosely on TWOK. You can certainly have action without revenge.

Finally, Scotty is great, continue the great work on him. And more Karl Urban. He is fantastic as McCoy. Maybe have him need to come up with a cure for some plague, or lead a critical triage team. Something where we can see him really doctor on his own.

690. Guy Davis - May 22, 2013

Dear Bob Orci,

Here is our feedback from our group (10 people, all in their 30s/40s, 5 men 5 women, 2 hard core Trekkies and the rest casual Trekkies):
General Consensus: We liked it! It was a good movie. We understand and acknowledge that you are making it for a different audience.

Plot holes:
#1) Why Khan’s blood? Didn’t they have 72 OTHER super-blooded people there? Right behind McCoy? Kahn should have been vaporized.

#2) Why doesn’t someone keep a rad suit near the rad bay? (This is a similar plot hole as in the original STII. No one has a radiation suit for our heroes?!? At least a “Captain! Wear this suit!” “It’ll take me 4 minutes to get in. We only have 3!” would have sufficed.

Things we didn’t like:
#1) There was disappointment at beating Kahn in a fistfight. That was something that made the original STII stand out from every other action film: Kirk beat him at KIRK’S game: Starship fighting. Not Kahn’s game: Superhuman strength.
#2) Admiral Marcus was a cookie cutter character. Peter Weller is so good, however here he just came across flat.
#3) Carol Marcus was a classic “Damsel in Distress”, though Kudos for not letting Kirk fall for it (He went over there to stop Kahn, not to save Marcus). She came across flat as well. And my wife adds: Why did she get naked? Naked is okay, but this seemed gratuitous.”
#4) There was a concern that Kahn’s backstory wasn’t explored. Not because we didn’t understand (All were Trekkies to some degree or another) but because the concession we old guard are make to the less cerebral, super action and fistfights is that you are bringing new blood in… that presumes new blood wouldn’t have seen Star Trek II.
#5) Missed opportunity: Instead of Marcus being worried about the Klingons, he SHOULD have been concerned about the Romulans… it would have tied Nero to this movie and is a VERY legitimate concern. He could have worried that the Romulans, knowing their homeworld was now at risk, would be militarizing.

Things we really enjoyed:
#1) The reversal with Kirk being the one to sacrifice. NICE! Did Not see that one coming!
#2) We liked the Enterprise on the ocean floor, it came up with Giacchino’s Enterprising Young Men Theme, it was spine tingling. :)
#3) Spock’s trick to beam the torpedoes aboard the dreadnought was beautiful.
#4) Spock having problems with emotion. VERY nice. Again the most alien of characters is the most human. EXACTLY the way Spock has worked in the past.
#5) All of the acting was very good in this. I really felt for Zoe when she was upset with Spock, Chris really translated the “I’m growing up now” feel very nicely.
#6) We LOVED the idea that Kahn *might* actually be a good guy. I would have dared you to actually make Kahn a good guy and Marcus the bad guy. THAT would have been a real cool move!
#7) Uhura: You are developing her nicely. Keep going. You are pulling her away from the classic female role. If you can, next movie, put her in center seat or some command for a little bit and for God’s sake don’t have her screw up. When you write her, write her lines interchangeably with Sulu or Spock (No “What should I do?” crap. She’s an officer, she’s had training) when she’s in the center chair and you will be heroes.

All in all, this was a good movie. You did great! We look forward to seeing the next one! Thank you for the great entertainment!

691. William Bradley - May 22, 2013

PUH-LEEZE, you’re comparing a minor moment in one movie with a massive turning point in another.

Besides, what is more likely? That the audience never saw Chekov because he was in engineering or something, but Khan did when he took over the ship?

Or the utter nonsense that I had to type below?

630. WicketSC – May 22, 2013
“603. William Bradley – May 22, 2013
You have forgotten that Khan never had magic blood before.

Suddenly, now he does! And it is so magical that it reanimates Tribbles! Why, a dead Tribble just happens to be lying around! And McCoy just happens to inject it with Khan’s blood to, you know, see what happens!

And it springs back to life! And so does Kirk!

Yay!!!!”

Uhhm, not forgetting, I just understand that Star Trek is a world created by writers who take creative license. Much like Kahn recognizing Chekov in TWOK. Kahn carries on like they spent half the episode of Space Seed breaking bread together, when Chekov was no where to be found in the actual episode. Just because I did not see it, does not mean my imagination can’t come up with something like Kahn may have run into Chekov while waiting to get into the Enterprise’s mens toilet or something. Who knows, who cares. I might think about that for 2 seconds and move on. I just loved the movie for what it was.

I do not sit around dissecting every single thing looking for something in canonical history to justify every plot point. It is a work of fiction, not historical facts. In Star Trek, canon is created by whoever Paramount has given the bag of money too. Right now, that is boborci, JJ and the gang. I just enjoy the movies without turning it into a forensic deconstruction of everything I see on the screen. Loved this movie too.

692. Damian - May 22, 2013

What about some positives from the film. We tend to get stuck on the negative, myself included. I’ve obsessed over transwarp beaming, magic blood, etc. There are many more things I loved about the film.

1. Section 31 being a critical part of the story (though they were mentioned only once). Bob and Alex did a great job with Section 31 and Admiral Marcus. Everything that went on is very possible with Section 31. I wasn’t sure about the Vengeance when I first heard of it (Starfleet would never sanction that sort of ship–well except maybe the Defiant in DS9), but Section 31 absolutely would. Anyone who is a fan of DS9 and Enterprise had to love that they were involved.

2. The clear maturation of JJ Abrams as a director. I earlier referred this movie to being a JJ Abrams movie with a small dose of Ritalin. There was still plenty of JJ, still lots of flares and the shaky camera, But there were a lot of scenes that were clean and still (the more subdued a scene, the more subdued the camera). The flares in space scenes were much less intrusive. In the last film, lots of good special effects were lost among the flares. In STID they were there, but they weren’t intrusive.

3. Scotty. Kirk. Pike. Need I say more. Sulu had a great scene on the bridge. Spock was ok, but a bit too much emotion at times. Marcus was a great villain. Interesting how in Enterprise, Weller played a man Section 31 wanted stopped, and here he played what I assume was the current head of Section 31. Interesting irony.

4. We now have a warp core. I’m never going to be a fan of a brewery for engineering, but it was clear the team was paying attention to the fans. I have to give them credit for that. Also, the “window” on the bridge was a bit more reasonable in size. And images on the screen were much more clear than in Star Trek (2009). Sickbay looked a little more futuristic too.

5. A great story, even though it involved Khan (unnecessarily I believe). I was never bored. I was completely entertained, and that is the most important thing when going to a movie.

693. Dennis C - May 22, 2013

I remember reading a pitch that Harlan Ellison made for ST: TMP that was rejected and, at it’s core, is a the potential for a great Star Trek movie.

The story went like this:

The Enterprise is doing its thing when suddenly it gets tossed about and works its way back to Earth. Once there they discover that the timeline has been altered but in a way they never could have imagined. Humanity, you see, didn’t evolve into the dominant species, dinosaurs did. They evolved, they have their own culture, have explored the stars and have boldly gone where none have gone before. The dilemma for the Enterprise crew is that by returning home and restoring their timeline they also destroy a civilization that has thrived for millions of years.

A strong script needs a solid story to serve as its foundation. Writer’s flesh out the details and then hopefully you get a great movie out of it. Hopefully we’ll get a solid story to build the next movie from.

694. Karen - May 22, 2013

@ BobOrci

I think it’s pretty clear you’ll never please everyone. So I say please yourselves first. Tell the story you want, the best way you know how. I think Russell T Davies said it best: storytelling isn’t a democracy. You guys clearly know Trek, you understand these characters and their world, and more than that, you love them. So tell your story truthfully, with all the honesty and integrity and passion you possess, and let the chips fall where they may.

I wish you the very best of luck for the next adventure.

695. Damian - May 22, 2013

693–Voyager sort of ran with that storyline in an episode (Distant Origin) where they discover a race of intelligent dinosaurs who had originated on Earth and moved to the Delta Quadrant. They refused to believe they could have originated somewhere else.

It actually was a very good episode. As much maligned as Voyager is, they did actually have several excellent episodes, this certainly being one of them.

696. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

Yes, despite a few nitpicks, I really admire how bob and team listened to suggestions here. From adressing some fans concerns over Kirk being promoted to fast to giving us a warp core, more future earth, more uniforms, prime directive, klingon home world, reimagined khan, carol marcus, more space jumps, ship losing gravity and trying to do their jobs etc. Heck they even gave us IMAX 3D.

The visuals, music, dialogue, acting is bang on.

I just wished the movie never ended, honestly can sit there for another hour just taking everything in, I want more of this.

697. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

*too fast

698. Geek Girl - May 22, 2013

Now I’ve been a supporter of the Benedict is Joachim since his casting was announced (although admittedly it wavered over the past few months) but a thought occurred to me. What if Harrison was one of the 12 that had died in Space Seed. Going over the info for the episode it states that 12 stasis tubes had failed while 72 lived. Now in STID Harrison is trying to rescue 72 sleepers making the 73rd. Perhaps in the earlier timeline they discovered the Botany Bay before his unit failed.

I’d love to see a novel dealing with the aftermath of the movie. Have McGivers, now a Section 31agent, wake the real Khan who realises that Harrison had planned to murder him and take control of the augments. Have the two of them duke it out, maybe splitting the augments into rival groups.

699. William Bradley - May 22, 2013

Now, here is something that should set off all kinds of alarm bells. And that is the writers of the current movie imagining that Khan is to Star Trek what the Joker is to Batman.

I bet that sounded really cool in a pitch meeting with some studio executives.

Unfortunately, it is totally wrong.

> http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/the-reel-breakdown/check-star-trek-writers-planting-easter-eggs-tribbles-215642312.html

Alex: We couldn’t use Khan just as a gimmick, as an excuse to get fans into the theaters. Once we developed the story, suddenly the details of Khan’s life became an even better way to tell it. Only when we decided that Khan really does fit here – and the fans know that Khan is to the series what The Joker is to “Batman” – that’s when we decided we earned it.

Bob: And that’s when we went for it. Khan is the ultimate Easter egg.

700. Marja - May 22, 2013

#440 Obsessive and # 441 S/U Admirer,

Obessive, thank you for your observations – I felt the same, while acknowledging the regrettable limits of a two-hour movie that I feel could easily have been 15 or more minutes longer. I feel the S/U relationship grew during this movie, that Uhura gained a greater understanding of Spock’s thinking and feelings, and that he gained a better understanding of her thoughts and emotions. I loved their scene and Spock’s words to her in Mudd’s ship [beautifully written, Bob, Et.al.]; I only regret that S/U could not be alone to have this scene. The fact that Spock is expressing such thoughts *in front of Kirk*, however, can be seen as an even greater indication of his high regard for Uhura, that he is willing to assuage her hurt feelings even with Kirk witnessing his statement. Folks have said that this occurs at this time b/c they were facing imminent death, and so wanted to clear the air and reassure each other in advance, and that’s a great point of view.

Dear SU Admirer, I admire them too, and hope for more the touches and kisses, but regrettably the movie’s length would not allow for such – although I feel strongly that 5 – 10 seconds could have been spared for this, and do devoutly wish it for the next film. That said, if I may quote Elder Spock, I hope you’ll get a chance to see the movie again and look for the subtle signs of couplehood noted by Obsessive.

Some feminists applaud “fierce Uhura,” and posit that it’s impossible for a truly professional woman to have a romantic relationship. Some of these same people are K/S shippers [that is they favor a sexual relationship between the CO, Kirk, and his XO, Spock, which I've always found completely unrealistic. Kirk and Spock have always been presented as BROTHERS, not lovers]. As for professional women being celibate, cite that same restriction for male professionals and see how far that goes.

Bob, I hope you will *continue* to support your [and fellow writers'] initial creation of the S/U relationship.

In fact, Bob, I’d love to see a scene of them waking up together, perhaps at the sound of a Red Alert. And I’d love for the couple to continue to be a couple, highs and lows included. I think you’ve done a great job with them, and DO NOT want to see them broken up for *any* reason; this is an AltVerse after all. Spock was pretty lonely in TOS, and this noble fellow doesn’t deserve loneliness [and neither does Uhura]. In fact, I kind of cheered in ST09 to see acknowledgement that Spock was the sexiest guy in TOS :-D.

If y’all do Pon farr in the next movie I really hope the contest will be between Uhura and T’Pring – and that, of course, Uhura wins. After all T’Pring, you’ve got Stonn. [Just please don't break up Spock and Uhura! She accepts him as he is and doesn't look down her nose at his "impurity."] [Has Mila Kunis been considered for T'Pring BTW?]

I loudly applaud the inclusion of a “grown-up romantic relationship between two highly professional people, and hope these two professionals who are romantically involved continue to be Spock and Uhura.

701. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

Question bob, when you guys did not land bdt to play Khan and bc landed the role, what if anything did you change in the script to tailor it for bc?

702. Damian - May 22, 2013

696–True. Nice to see maybe some second guessing on the part of Starfleet about the quick promotion of Kirk.

Prime directive too. It was a nice touch the Pike mentioned Kirk should not have altered the planet’s destiny in the first place. How many times did we see in Star Trek, TNG and Voyager the crew tackle the issue of when to interfere and when not too.

703. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

@693 As I recall Paramount and Gene liked Ellisons script but that in ’76 it was deemed ” unfilmable “. Probaly quite true considering Spfx were along the lines of TVs Land of the Lost.

704. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

Tell ILM to give us Torpedo Time, ships dodging torpedos because they are in some slow ass gas cloud or nebula and the ships targeting sensors and shields do not function, other ship cannot cloak either, sick epic space duel, mano a mano, kor vs kirk.

705. Karen - May 22, 2013

@602 Sooner Dave

Word! Couldn’t agree more.

@682

Thanks so much for that i/v link. Really interesting.

706. Commodore Adams - May 22, 2013

I want the 3rd movie – I am assuming the final in a trilogy – to be Klingon focused. Aside from Vulcans (and humans) they are the quintessential species of Star Trek.

707. Karen - May 22, 2013

@702 Damian

ITA re the Prime Directive. But also, I think it was a fabulous follow on from the first film, in that what do you think the chances would’ve been of Spock being okay with the volcano mission in the first place if he hadn’t lived through the destruction of Vulcan? I mean, he had to know they were already playing fast and loose with the Prime Directive, intervening in a natural event. But he was clearly okay with that. He just didn’t want them blowing it entirely to hell by revealing their presence. So in fact he was prepared to blur the line. He just wasn’t willing to rub it out entirely.

And with regard to that, how brilliant was Quinto with his reaction to them saving his life? His delivery of the lines — Captain, you let them see our ship! He’s genuinely dismayed and dumbfounded. It’s lovely work from the actor.

708. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

“But the biggest thing for me is how so many complain that Uhura having feelings and expressing those feelings and caring for another character is wrong and a downgrade from TOS and sexist, but then wax poetically about Spock, Kirk, McCoy and every other guy in the film having feelings and caring for each other oh so much. So what I’m getting here is that the white guys can do whatever they want. Feel whatever they want, express it whenever they want, take actions whenever they want, especially if those actions demonstrate how much they care for other white guys.”

Bingo! It is quite sexist actually. Once again, women are restricted in how they are meant to behave, but guys can pretty much do/be anything.

As for stereotyping, what stereotyping supposed stereotypes?

709. Marja - May 22, 2013

#689, Damian, I agree with everything you said. “Doomsday Machine” is the best “bottle show” of TOS, with a riveting performance by William Windom as Matt Decker, and I’d love to see an AltVerse version. Certainly the Doomsday Machine still has its modern counterparts, be they nuclear, biological, or chemical, and a movie reflecting their dangers would be timely indeed. And “bottle shows” are cheaper, plus this all took place in space. Perhaps an alien race could be competing to harness the planet-eater for their own use [and there could be many socio-political reasons for this], and the Federation has to keep that from happening. Add a crazy captain [Garth of Izar, perhaps?] and you’d have a pretty good movie IMHO.

And Damien, at 692 you made a great series of points as well. I do disagree about Spock being “too emotional” and here’s why … I hope I don’t give a super-long disquisition:

Here’s what Spock has been through in the last year and in the course of the movie, and remember as you read this, that Spock is Vulcan and has been *suppressing his emotions* all this time.

[1] Loss of his mother; [2] Loss of his entire planet, a way of life, everyone he grew up with, his landscape, his schools … *everything* on Vulcan … [3] Loss of thousands of Starfleet members at the [horribly-named] Battle of Vulcan; many were probably co-workers, mentors and students; [4] The near-loss of Earth at Nero’s hands; [5] Loss of Admiral Pike, also a mentor, and likely a CO as Spock did command training before Enterprise was commissioned; [6] The near-loss of Uhura on Qo’onoS.

Now I don’t know about other folks, but I imagine this caused one hella case of PTSD, especially in a Vulcan who tries to suppress his emotions. So I didn’t find it unnatural at all that Spock wept, then erupted, when his great friend died.

710. Damian - May 22, 2013

707–Certainly in line with the Spock we know. Spock Prime probably would have went for saving the planet but you’re right. JJ Spock would have balked pre-Vulcan’s destruction.

Both Spocks would take issue with Kirk saving his life by allowing the natives to see the ship. The difference is Kirk-prime was experienced enough to find a 3rd alternative that would have saved Spock and not violated that part of the prime directive. JJ Kirk clearly needs more experience.

711. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#699

They did earn it, they did the impossible by reimagining tos characters and hiring new actors to play their roles. I know khan is sacred to some ppl like how tos is sacred to some but it worked in st09 and they pulled it off again in stid.

I just wish this movie gets rewarded both at the box office and at the oscars, that would be the ultimate being a fan of star trek for 20+ years.

712. Emery - May 22, 2013

The Spock and Uhura relationship was the worst part of the reboot. End it. I’ve seen about 7 people who consistently show up to try and defend them, but most either don’t care or truly dislike it. The polls don’t lie. I seriously can’t believe they haven’t broken them up yet.

713. Damian - May 22, 2013

709–I was fine with Spock until the moment he screamed Khan. I agree with what you said. Hell, even Spock prime said it affected him. What Vulcan wouldn’t be affected by it. We’ve been told time and gain that Vulcans have feelings, they just repress them.

Everything made sense up to screaming Khan. I should have clarified that more. Him screaming Khan was over the top for me. It almost seemed JJ thought it was a bit over the top because he quickly cut away to the next scene (though I imagine that’s probably not the case, it just seemed that way).

714. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#710

Yea, I would have beamed Spock and all the natives onboard the enterprise and have the natives short term memory wiped, then put back natives and let them deal with missing time and flashbacks ;)

715. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

We have just come back from watching this movie – my better half for the first time, for me fourth time. My husband now understands why I kept raving on about it.

“As for stereotyping, what stereotyping supposed stereotypes?”
I wrote this and I realize that it does not make sense. I am a bit tired right now…

716. Damian - May 22, 2013

I have to ask, how do some of you afford seeing the movie multiple times. I saw it twice. Movies aren’t cheap.

I’d love to see it again, but I don’t have another 10 bucks to cough up (and I have a decent job and make decent money).

717. Disinvited - May 22, 2013

523. cpelc – May 22, 2013

Let’s, keep in mind that atoms and elements didn’t have anything to do with the Genesis effect – David couldn’t get it to work with normal matter – except as the after result.

By introducing protomatter, something fictional which we in the audience know as much about as scientists do real dark matter, with banned properties…well, they can easily wave away all sorts of problems.

# 681. Curious Cadet – May 22, 2013

Exactly, a much cleverer conceit in that the loose ends of explaining resurrection are ironically killed off.

Doubt his will add anything, but FWIW: I always took it that, however David did it, Genesis was supplying the energy to rapidly produce a habitable world. For it to be compatible with human life as the cave experiment proved, it had to be handling DNA somewhere along the way, i.e. accelerating it to maturation etc. My guess was the coffin landed after the stage where the GENESIS DNA cell seeds had been “matrixed” and just prior to the accelerated maturation cycle which somehow David’s “solution” introduced enough chaos that it actually fluctuated with reversals after initially going forward. Somehow Spock’s corpse got caught up in that and regenerated and started aging as the cycle settled down into a maturation one with no reversals but still plenty of chaos.

Now, don’t don’t jump to the conclusion that this all sprung from my being totally enamored of the resurrection – I’m not. It’s always been a mixed blessing to me.

#589. Phil – May 22, 2013

Me too. Don’t get me wrong, I was happy to have Spock back, but I was equally disappointed that the whole direction of the subsequent movies’ arc had to be derailed to service it.

718. Marja - May 22, 2013

Dear Bob, two good casting choices, just in case Harrison =/= Khan:

The “superior specimen” SENDHIL RAMAMURTHY, who being tall and slender would be “surprisingly” strong, and is handsome enough to woo some silly female officer to his cause:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=sendhil+ramamurthy+heroes&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35

and as someone mentioned, Naveen Andrews, who’s not as tall or handsome, but is also a “superior” candidate for Khan Noonien Singh:
http://www.pcdesktopwallpaper.com/wallpapers-celebrities/Naveen-Andrews-002.jpg.html

If … you must … continue with the Khan story … which I wish you wouldn’t …

719. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

@693 actually just did a search over on screenrant apparently Ellison pitched the idea of reworking his script for JJ. Back when Jjtrek 2 was ramping up. Was this the script that ended with Kirk and company being given the gift of time and ended with the Enterprise returning from it’s initial 5 year mission?

For something a little fun goto youtube and search kirk that never was. An interesting clip from Pray for the Wildcats. If only…

720. Pensive's Wetness - May 22, 2013

well i saw it tonight, with family in tow. i have a couple grips but i only be vocal with this one: do you folks think the Flight-thru-Debris scene would have been better has some of the debrie came from another source besides the JJent? Perhaps a space station or (my favorite) another Star Fleet vessel investigating the incursion of the both JJEnt and the Vengence?

721. William Bradley - May 22, 2013

We are getting an emo Spock and an angry girlfriend Uhura.

It’s just like another poster said somewhere around here, we would never see Kira and Odo having a spat while heading into battle.

>712. Emery – May 22, 2013
The Spock and Uhura relationship was the worst part of the reboot. End it. I’ve seen about 7 people who consistently show up to try and defend them, but most either don’t care or truly dislike it. The polls don’t lie. I seriously can’t believe they haven’t broken them up yet.

722. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#720

I dont think any vessel came as Admiral Marcus made it clear the Enterprise has gone rogue for disobeying orders and that he was to destroy the enterprise and crew including khan for security of earth and starfleet.

723. Karen - May 22, 2013

@716 Damian

Well, I for one am learning to love tinned baked beans … *g*

724. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@692. Damian,
“We now have a warp core. I’m never going to be a fan of a brewery for engineering, but it was clear the team was paying attention to the fans. I have to give them credit for that.”

Don’t think for a moment we would have gotten this had the filmmakers not decided to recreate the entire final death scene from TWOK. That warp core had to be there to give something for Kirk to climb into and die. We’re just lucky it wasn’t a brewing vat.

725. Karen - May 22, 2013

@708 Keachick

Yes, to you and the person you quoted. But we’re also seeing levels of discomfort expressed over the emotionality of the leading male characters. That speaks to me of discomfort in those viewers with the idea of men feeling/expressing emotions that are often and erroneously identified as inherently weak or feminine.

And what I find really interesting about that is this film was created by an all male team, and all the actors in question are men, yet they clearly have embraced this level of emotionality. Which I think is tremendous, more power to them.

So I think what we’re seeing is resistance to an idea of masculinity that embraces the full spectrum of not just human but sentient emotion … which by definition also includes Spock.

726. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#724

I told them to go to cern, I think they picked another futurlistic lab in cali

727. The Great Bird Lives - May 22, 2013

@Bob
Saw the movie 3 times now, and it definitely has grown on me. I’m reading the novelization right now- good stuff.

As for the future…
A journey to uncharted territory- a bizarre, never before seen alien species-
Perhaps Enterprise is pulled into a rift, and the crew find themselves in a region completely unknown to them. The rift disappears, and with no familiar stars, and no way home, Kirk, and Spock must deal with a frightful, yet peaceful alien species, bizarre spacial disturbances, and a debilitating anxiety disorder that threatens to infect everyone- Including the Enterprise, Herself. Yikes!

Or how bout…

728. Marja - May 22, 2013

#331,

I didn’t think ST2009 was better than this film by any means.

At the time Nero seemed to me a bit of a cheezy re-write of STII’s Khan [a man whose planet was "destroyed" who lost his wife and went crazy with revenge].

This film introduced subplots relevant to contemporary times and another layer of reasons for Khan to avenge himself against Marcus.

BTW, to those saying it’s impossible to build something as huge as Vengeance without the public knowing about it, think on this:

[1] How many contemporary US Defense contracts are approved and let in total secrecy ["Black Ops"];
[2] The number of secret Black Ops performed daily in this modern world [Black Ops from the Viet Nam era have only recently been revealed];
[3] Marcus may have had unlimited funds for Section 31 with the Federation’s caution since the massive attack on Kelvin 26 years before this movie takes place

729. Bender Bending Rodriguez - May 22, 2013

I have been working so late every night this week, and have not been able to see it again — yet. I know I’ll go once this week, and then at least once this weekend.

I will get there, but it’s KILLING ME! I have wanted to get back to the theater so bad.

730. somethoughts - May 22, 2013

#716

First time I saw it, it was paid for by me in advance online booking for sneak peak. Second time, friend paid :) Third time I will keep up the theme of the second viewing hehe I will repay them in superman and Thor I guess…

731. The Great Bird Lives - May 22, 2013

@ Bob
Unfortunately, I’m a Trekoholic. Since the days of TOS return I’ve made it my religion. And since there is nowhere near enough material to occupy my brain, It’s imperative that I create my own stories to satisfy my needs. I don’t share them because I live in fear of rejection. And although I consider myself a perfectionist- I know I could never be perfect enough to please THIS crowd. Jeez. I envy you, my friend.

732. Antimatter - May 22, 2013

Keachick, give it a rest.

733. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@698. Geek Girl,
“What if Harrison was one of the 12 that had died in Space Seed. Going over the info for the episode it states that 12 stasis tubes had failed while 72 lived. Now in STID Harrison is trying to rescue 72 sleepers making the 73rd. Perhaps in the earlier timeline they discovered the Botany Bay before his unit failed.”

Yes! This is one of the first things I thought of to explain why Khan wasn’t the first to be awakened after seeing the movie and deciding there was no reason Harrison couldn’t be lying about being Khan.

The only problem with this is if we add an additonal functional pod back from the 12 that malfunctioned, that leaves 74 functional pods, awaken one (Harrison), and that leaves 73 pods/torpedoes.

Therefore, Harrison always had to be among the functional 72.

Assuming Khan’s pod was always set to activate first, we know it failed and only Doctor McCoy’s presence saved Khan. Given that this happened again, the default might be to wake Harrison next in the event of Khan’s pod failure. Something we didn’t get to see in Space Seed because Scotty and Bones interrupted the sequence by breaking into Khan’s pod. Since we now know Khan has magical blood, Harrison identifies himself as “Khan”, resuscitates the real Khan and has him returned to stasis with the rest.

734. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

@585Sam

I’m guessing that Vulcans aren’t of much interest to you, Sam.

In Enterprise (yeah, I know, ”that show”, Trip (human) and T’Pol (Vulcan) were bonded after having sex and being drawn to each other for a while. This was acknowledged after Trip was the only guy on the ship that wasn’t influenced by the Orion women that were trying to seductively take over. This means, that he and T’Pol had a mental connection, and we saw some of this, I think, when she was meditating and while they both were dreaming. Trip didn’t understand it or know what was happening, but T’Pol did. She just wasn’t ready to recognize it.

We don’t know, at least not from the movies, exactly how long Spock and Uhura have been together, I would guess it’s at least a couple of years. I think they developed a respect and a deep attraction to one another over the course of a couple of years before that. I don’t think after all of this and living together on the same ship for 6 months that they are just “dating,” which sounds very casual, and what would give you that opinion?

Vulcans don’t frivolously date that one, this one, that one… It’s one of the striking differences that Spock has with Kirk. Dating is more or less, a short term thing that was constructed to lead to something else, something long term (usually). If you’ve been dating the same guy for 4 or 5 years, then you’re not just dating; you’re in a relationship. This is especially true if your partner is Vulcan.

Vulcans are given bond-mates when they are children. It’s like a telepathic betrothal, if I understand it correctly. If he’s with Uhura, the way it looks like he’s with Uhura, then he’s broken off that telepathic betrothal to T’(I can’t think of her name right now). And it that happened, then that means that he was interested in Uhura enough to believe that she was the one he would be bonded to when he broke off his betrothal.

Another thing that it looks like to me is that from what I have read/seen about Vulcans, not being married or at least bonded is not a normal thing for Vulcans. I think the marriage happens as soon as the first pon farr hits, and that’s when they consummate their bond. This usually is happening after the two in question have been bonded first, and usually they’ve been bonded for a good while.

Now, if Trip and T’Pol were bonded and they had a telepathic connection that T’Pol wasn’t quite ready for, then how much deeper would that connection be between Spock (who clearly did look that he had been ready for it in ST09) and Uhura (who both did seem to be onboard with their relationship in ST09)? My guess is that if she didn’t already read up on it when they first started to see each other as much as she could (Vulcans are notoriously private and secretive when it comes to their love lives, so not much documentation exists outside of their culture on it), and I think she would have asked him questions about the things she didn’t know.

I also think he would have told her what she was getting into and given her the option to choose being bonded to him as opposed to it kind of just happening to Trip because T’Pol couldn’t be honest with herself about her feelings for him, let alone be honest with him.

Gosh, I’m writing a book again. Anyway, as to your questions about Kirk, McCoy, and how everyone else was acting towards Spock and Spock, well I’ve said a few times now that the entire movie has some issues. I just don’t want to write pages and pages to point them out (at least the ones I saw).

735. Philip - May 22, 2013

LOL Conan O’brien and JJ Abrams put to rest all this incredibly STUPID Alice Eve Controversy…

http://www.buzzsugar.com/Benedict-Cumerbatch-Shower-Scene-Star-Trek-Darkness-30587370

Get a life tighwads.

736. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 22, 2013

Sorry for how my post 734 reads. I was thinking 2-3 different things while typing about one, but you get the gist.

737. Karen - May 22, 2013

@735 Phillip

Hey, I can’t begin to tell you how much we wimminz love it when a man tells us to STFU with our stupid opinions over things that matter to us.

738. AyanEva - May 22, 2013

boborci ( although you’ll probably never see this in the massive amount of text on this page):

I wish Harrison had gotten more screen time and we had more if a chance to see him work. Any chance of seeing Harrison/Khan again? Since he worked for Section 31 and has now destroyed all of it, it’s possible that a lot of project info now exists solely in his head (I still think of him as John Harrison, tbh. Spent so long calling him that, now the name has stuck). If the next film is a war with the Klingons, maybe they have to wake him back up because they need Section 31 info that only he has now.

Just a thought. I’d love to see more of him if Benedict was willing to reprise the role.

739. McCoy's#1Fan - May 22, 2013

Due to circumstances beyond my control I just tonight got to see the movie– can’t believe I am going to say it but it wasn’t worth the money.

Even Karl Urban was a total disappointment.. think he wasn’t happy with his role. For McCoy to be written out of Kirk’s death scene
and substituted with Scotty/Uhura was the killer for me.. (They didn’t call for any medical assistance at all!!!) But feel that was done to keep it from being totally a redux from TWOK.

Will sheepishly admit to one thing.. I liked Quinto much better in this one. My main beef had always been his physical presence and I found myself shocked at how often he looked just like a young Nimoy.

Oh well, there’s always the next one.

740. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

Personally the underwear scene does not bother me at all. It is what it is and takes up a very small part of the movie.

Nobody is apologizing for some of the very gratuitous violence that was shown in the movie. I mean the scene showing Khan stepping on Carol, leaving her a partial cripple and then smashing Marcus’s skull in front of his daughter would have to be one of the most horrific scenes of brutality ever. There was nothing forced about that scream…then Khan brutally punches and kicks Kirk over and over and over…and those are just one section showing brutality.

It seems OK to show people being violently objectified in order to demonstrate, tell what but show a hint of skin and the protests begin in earnest…I think people’s moral priorities appear a little warped, to be honest.

741. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 22, 2013

Yes, having McCoy turn up to see Kirk die might have been better. I think Kirk and McCoy have a greater friendship and emotional connection and I could imagine McCoy not only screaming Khan but adding a few pointed expletives as well…

No medical assistance was called for in TWOK because everyone believed that it was too late and there was nothing that could be done.

NB: An injured Carol was met by a nurse and Lt Uhura. Uhura was quietly talking to and comforting Carol as they led to her Med Bay.

742. porthoses bitch - May 22, 2013

@735 hmmmmmm treated as a joke… but don’t I recall Cumby saying something about a scene that showed the results of his working out….but thinking it was goingto be probaly cut.

743. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

What’s interesting about that Conan clip is what Abrams said about the intent of showing Aice Eve in her underwear:

“It’s KIRK — who was always this sort of womanizing character … so the intent was to have a beat like that in the middle of all of this action and adventure”

Forget the underwear, that statement alone shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Kirk, not to mention the gratuitous fixation of that premise repeated throughout the movie as Kirk ogles numerous women, and then there’s the cat women. Moreover, really, that’s what you pause the action and adventure for, but you cut a meaningful dialogue scene that might help explain better who Carol Marcus is?

744. Karen - May 22, 2013

@743 Curious Cadet

The thing is, you know, they already established that with the ‘hello ladies, Jim Kirk’ line in the beginning. I honestly don’t think they needed to add more to that. It was perfectly clear to the audience he hadn’t changed. Yes, Kirk is still a bit of a horndog. We get it. But then they have to put him in bed with 2 females … and then add the underwear scene? Really? How dumb do you think we are on this side of the movie screen?

And anyhow, that does read to me like a bit of retconning in the face of criticism. Best to stop trying to explain while you’re ahead.

745. Derek Clendening - May 22, 2013

Oh wow, still debating an underwear scene in which no private parts were revealed.

Then don’t watch the movie Karen, ever again!!! Geesh.

Go watch the beginning of “Flight” and tell me that’s not 1,000 times worse.

746. Curious Cadet - May 22, 2013

@682. Riker001,
“Good and interesting article… http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Trek-Darkness-Spoilers-With-Damon-Lindelof-Bryan-Burk-37649.html

You’re not kidding, interesting. Lindelof is demonstrating how he absolutely doesn’t understand the subject matter he’s writing about:

“He’s not yelling it out because anyone’s been killed. It’s because he’s down there stranded on the Genesis testing ground, et cetera, et cetera.” — Damon Lindelof

Talk about a guy who doesn’t get it … Kirk is not yelling Khan’s name because they are seemingly trapped (which he KNOWS he’s not). Prior to that moment, Khan is responsible for the murder of the Reliant crew, murder of the scientists on Regular 1, crippling the Enterprise, the death of Scotty’s nephew and many of his crew, the death of Capt. Terrell and his victim Jedda — and for all Kirk knows his friend Chekov, and has stolen Genesis, perhaps the most deadly ‘weapon’ in the galaxy until red matter, and that doesn’t even take into account opening old wounds of trying to kill Kirk and take over the Enterprise in Space Seed. Saying his cry of “KHAAAAAN!” was about being marooned in that cave (which he KNOWS he’s not) trivializes all the death and destruction that has come before and just confirms Lindelof doesn’t know what he’s doing and shouldn’t be allowed near Star Trek.

747. Marja - May 22, 2013

BTW … [sorry for all the msgs at once Anthony, I'm late to the party today]

I LOVED THE SCORE FOR THIS MOVIE.

Harrison’s theme/suite was so much more layered, complex and nuanced than Nero’s blatty trombones and swirling strings in ST2009. It’s likely I’ll buy this score; Harrison’s motif keeps running through my mind!

Trekkiegal said, “Each and everyone of us are individuals and should be judged on our own merit, regardless of our ethnic origins or our relationship status. I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again, it is illegal in my state, California, to even ask marital status on job applications and in interviews. It is considered discriminatory to do so.”
.
So let’s see. As a character Uhura is an individual. She can decide whether or not to be in a relationship. (So can Spock. They’re adults.) We can judge her on her own merit [she faced the Klingons alone and took the guy's knife and stabbed him with it after he made to attack her. She dropped Spock into a volcano. She stunned the crap out of Khan - who, alas, kept fighting - working to help the First Officer (who happens to be her boyfriend) - whose life she saved from the "skull-crusher." She and Spock defeat Khan and bring him in. All that and she did a great job at communications.]

In the true spirit of the State of California, I say, let’s leave Uhura’s relationship status out of this. She was better-written in STID, and I hope the writers continue this progress. As to the arguing on the way to “Kronos” that has already been answered by me and Keachick, among others. Uhura was not “just a girlfriend.” She has a legitimate place on the Bridge.

748. Disinvited - May 22, 2013

#746. Curious Cadet – May 22, 2013

Indeed, but I think he very clearly was using all that to sell it to his audience on the open channel as well.

749. Marja - May 22, 2013

Y’know what? Why don’t we belay a few minutes of horrid violence and [1] show our officers in the Observation Deck playing chess, singing or “phoning” home; [2] have McCoy, Kirk, Spock and Uhura discuss some tense political situation sharing their possibly differing views?

Then BAM! Science Fiction! Action!

(With maybe a kiss afterward.)

Sure would be great.

750. William Bradley - May 22, 2013

Yes, exactly, JJ has no idea about who Kirk is.

He takes the absolute cliche version of Kirk — constant womanizer (false), always emotional (false), always prone to violence and not diplomacy (false) — and then directs Chris Pine to give the adolescent version of that.

I’ve seen Pine in other things. He is a good actor and a good leading man.

But he’s being directed to deliver an adolescent cliche of Kirk crossed with Han Solo.

>743. Curious Cadet – May 22, 2013
What’s interesting about that Conan clip is what Abrams said about the intent of showing Aice Eve in her underwear:

“It’s KIRK — who was always this sort of womanizing character … so the intent was to have a beat like that in the middle of all of this action and adventure”

Forget the underwear, that statement alone shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Kirk,

751. Disinvited - May 22, 2013

#202. Curious Cadet – May 21, 2013

You mean, beside throwing Marcus’ whole reason for having Khan in charge of building them out the window? If Marcus could take Khan’s fake photon torpedoes and make them real, what the heck did he need Khan for to begin with?

752. dmduncan - May 22, 2013

To those who think they ripped off TWOK with the reversal of roles, i.e. Kirk being the one who saves the ship, and Spock on the other side of the glass this time, I think you’re all missing something.

That’s another moment that only could have followed—WITHOUT being a rip off—from the MWI premise established in the first movie whereby the writers created a similar situation as in the prime universe, but also distinguished it in a way that showed exactly how well Kirk and Spock are coming to complement each other.

That scene actually DEPENDS for its full power on you UNDERSTANDING the scene’s parent incarnation in TWOK so that the differences between the two say something important about how these two characters are bonding.

Each of them does during the whole sequence what the other would have done had the roles been reversed, and though THEY have no knowledge of such a reversal, WE do. By assuming each others’ roles, we can see how well they are coming to understand each other, which is what the reversal implies when we recall how events played out in TWOK, and it therefore tells us something new about THIS set of characters that USES—not rips off—Spock’s death scene from TWOK.

At Kirk’s death here, each has become cognizant of what the other would have done. They’ve each grown, and if the TWOK version where Spock dies didn’t exist as part of that very same canon multiverse, that point would not be possible to make as powerfully. TWOK is acting on us here somewhere behind the scenes of our consciousness, giving that scene a power it would not otherwise have.

So it is actually important that both versions of the scene exist AND belong to the same canon “multiverse.”

So it wasn’t a rip off. It had a point to make building on the MWI “big idea” of the first movie.

753. EllenC - May 22, 2013

617. dmduncan

Your obssession to replace Benedict Cumberbatch in this movie with any actor is getting out of hands, and it’s getting boring. He IS in this movie and playing Khan; get over it. And though I don’t want this writing team to do Khan again in the future films, because they don’t have the abilities, but if the same team indeed does it again in the near future, and if they come up with crap like you are dreaming to have a so called REAL Khan with other actors, we shall see some rages from different fanbases. Oh, btw, I, for one, don’t think Mark Strong has Cumberbatch’s charisma, there you go! ;-)

754. Bucky - May 22, 2013

Uhura speaking Klingon may be my favourite moment from Zoe Saldana in both of these movies so far.

755. Trekkiegal63 - May 22, 2013

#747. Marja:

LOL, talk about putting words in my mouth. And to think I was going to let your ‘some feminists’ generalization slide, but now that you’ve made it entirely personal…

For the record, I have never said Uhura wasn’t damn good in her job. Nor will I. Just like I’ve never said a woman can’t have a career and be in a relationship. Of course they can. You’ve implied that ‘feminists’ think that, not me. I’ve always been talking about Uhura, the person, who is more than either her job or Spock’s girlfriend.

You familiar with the spoons theory, Marja? It was developed by Christine Miserandino to describe what it is like to live with illness, in her case lupus, to a friend. She handed her friend a handful of spoons with the description that it was a day’s worth of energy. Each action costs a spoon until, once all the spoons are used, that’s it. You have reached the limit of your energy, aka spoon usage. There is no more left from which to draw from. Characters in an ensemble are given so many spoons, aka screen time. The bulk of Uhura’s spoons are used on her relationship with Spock, with only one or two spoons utilized to establish Nyota Uhura as an individual. So yes, that does shortchange her in the well-rounded characterization department.

You can try to rationalize your preoccupation with a fictitious pairing all you want, but the rest of the world, those of us who aren’t shippers thus not single-mindedly invested, which is most of us, actually, has cottoned on to this disturbing trend for portraying women in Hollywood, and we’re rightfully calling foul.

756. Disinvited - May 23, 2013

#752. dmduncan – May 22, 2013

My only quibble with your contention is that makers of this film says you don’t have to see ANY prior Trek to enjoy it. So why put in a pivotal scene that getting the most impact out of it requires one to have seen TWOK?

Also, in its original incarnation Kirk was saying it into a communicator and playing to his open channel audience. Did I miss something? Did altSpock who is supposed to lean to the super rational, really expect Khan to hear him?

I suppose it could be significant that Spock is a telepath so maybe he didn’t need a conventional communication channel, but was there a scene that I missed where Spock Prime or even Khan himself flinched when altSpock cried out?

757. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

I was not aware that Marja was particularly preoccupied with any fictitious pairing, nor does she appear to be a “shipper”.

One could correctly describe Spock/Uhura Admirer as being one of the above. What’s more, it seems that she is not only one preoccupied either, but not for the same reasons.

Stop it, Trekkiegal63.

758. EllenC - May 23, 2013

372. THX-1138
With all due respect, people, including the producers back then had a misconception that Sikh is a region in the northern India, and with such a misconception, it was not a completely unquestionable casting for Mr. Montalban, a white Mexican to play an Indian, and because his skin is relative white, he also had to put on heavy make-up to make it look browner. However, Sikh is actually a religion. Here’s a Tumblr post from someone who’s a Sikh and her/his view on Cumberbatch’s casting:
http://amanksandhu.tumblr.com/post/50677580748/utopia
Excerpt as below:
“Star Trek Into Darkness is by all means a great film in a wonderfully vast and diverse universe marred by the outcry against the “Whitewashing,” of certain iconic characters (One iconic character).
Like many science fiction writers, Gene Roddenberry and his team created a character with all of the great advantages that evolution had to offer humans. The result was a man given the impressive sounding name of Khan Noonien Singh. And like a great many science fiction characters, the description fit a man of color. Ricardo Montalbán brought the character to life first in Space Seed and most popularly in The Wrath of Khan.
The casting of Benedict Cumberbatch into the fold of Khan isn’t an issue of the character’s ethnicity. Khan has no ethnicity. Nor is it an issue of his being classified as Sikh, thanks to his very telling last name.
Sikhism is a religion in Northern India, practiced almost exclusively by the people in Punjab. I would know, I grew up in a Sikh family. Actively practiced the religion for many years. My grandfathers were both Singhs. Singh is a title given to you when you take vows to follow the faith. When you become a warrior for god. It preaches goodness and kindness, giving when you can, protecting those that need to be protected.
It is also one of the most inclusive religions. At least on paper. Anyone can become a Sikh, anyone can become a Singh. Or not. Sikhism is all about finding your way to the one true being. And because the aim is to return from where you came, it is held that all people have a different path. Be it Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, ect. You make your own way to the same central place, with your own guide.
So a man with Cumberbatch’s face can be called Khan Noonien Singh.”

You can say that Cumberbatch just doesn’t look like Mr. Montalban or played Khan as how Mr. Montalban portrayed the character; fine, that’s personal preference. I am in the other group that if all the new cast members are channeling or copying the original cast members, I’ll be very disappointed, and that, is also a personal preference.

On a side note, in today’s world, as a minority, I would hate to see the terrorist, John Harrison/ Khan is played by an actor who has a skintone looking like from Middle East, India or Pakistan, because it falls into such a stereotype of terrorists. It makes me unsettling to see such cliché terrorists’ images in a blockbuster. Look how people faultily spread wrong suspect info on the internet when the Boston Marathon bombings happened.

759. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

#750 – Except that Kirk did not behave like an adolescent in this movie.

“He takes the absolute cliche version of Kirk — constant womanizer (false), always emotional (false), always prone to violence and not diplomacy (false) — and then directs Chris Pine to give the adolescent version of that.”

Did JJ Abrams actually say or intimate the above? This is what Abrams did say, to use your quote:

“It’s KIRK — who was always this sort of womanizing character … so the intent was to have a beat like that in the middle of all of this action and adventure”

Abrams’ only mistake is to say “always” instead of “some of the time”.

760. Karen - May 23, 2013

@745 Derek

Actually, Derek, I truly don’t object to the opening of Flight. I don’t object to nudity in film. It’s all about the context, and the intent. This really isn’t about being prudish, or denying the reality that the naked human body can be attractive, both sexually and aesthetically. Done for the right reasons, I’m completely fine with any depictions of the human form. If I did have a problem, then The Pillow Book wouldn’t be one of my all time favourite films.

Here’s the thing, if I can roughly paraphrase a certain Vulcan: The fact that some folk are resorting to name calling means they’re feeling defensive, and therefore I can assume that my point is valid.

People getting nasty about these kinds of issues being raised — be they gender or racially based, the 2 great social hot buttons right now — means there’s a heightened level of discomfort and anxiety. My intent in talking about isn’t to make you or anyone feel like a terrible person. Or the Trek team, for that matter. It’s to shine a light on a social inequality and ask that we do better next time, all of us.

As for not seeing STID again, no way! This one caveat aside, I am an enormous fan of the film. I love it very much, and have said so at length in my fan review. I think on balance the guys did a brilliant job.

761. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#757. Keachick – rose pinenut:

You must not have read her post #700…

But to answer your so nicely worded and pleasant ‘request’… nope. Call it as I see it, as I always have. Missed you, Keachick, truly. :)

762. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

#758 – Interesting. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

After watching the movie for a fourth time, I cannot recall this iteration of John Harrison/Khan (played by Benedict Cumberbatch) ever refer to himself or be referred to by the full name of the prime universe character, Khan Noonien Singh. The only person who spoke the full name was prime Spock and he was speaking about the man he knew, who died.

STID’s own Khan has been returned to the cryotube.

763. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 23, 2013

What? I’m not sure what I’m being dragged into and for what reason. All I know is that I’ve said previously, and many times, that I place my #1 priority in an ensemble film that is (to my understanding) about an entire crew to actually spread the love around like that’s what it is.

I can remember when I was about the only person that repeatedly said that everyone should be included in the writing and please let each person get their time and focus. After that came S/U. I think some people maybe refuse to see that there are a number of ways that we can learn more about these 2 people through their somewhat unique relationship. If it makes anybody happy, it looks like these writers aren’t paying any attention to me anyway.

I’m just tired of all the in-fighting. Time to go back to the bbs (where I’ve never once had my posts disregarded in their entirety just because of my user name (how shallow)).

764. Karen - May 23, 2013

@755 Trekkiegal

I’ve been loving your posts. Very thoughtful and reasoned.

I’d have to say, though, that while I am 100% on board with your observations re: the portrayal of women in popular culture/storytelling, this time around I feel they’ve managed to do double duty with Uhura, emphasising/showcasing her talents and strengths within the context of her relationship with Spock as well as external to it. I mean, I absolutely get what you’re saying but given the overall limit of the space for this story, I think the doubling up for her worked.

Of course, what might be nice in the next film is if (assuming Carol’s still part of the crew) those 2 women have a subplot working together that is independent of any romantic relationship they’re in at the time. So they are showcased as talented, kiss-arse characters who incidentally happen to be women. Let them be brilliant officers first, and let their gender be utterly irrelevant to the action.

765. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#763 Spock/Uhura Admirer:

For the record Spock/Uhura Admirer, you’ve been far more pleasant of a conversationalist, seemingly willing to at least hear out and try to understand a contradictory opinion without deliberately misinterpreting or being dismissive of said contradictory opinion, regarding this particular topic (which is always a touchy one) than I’ve seen here, so cheers. You’re a credit to your demographic. Sorry you’ve been given a tough time of it.

766. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

#761 – You see, that’s the problem. Marja was just expressing an interest, a hope, a wish, a desire to see certain characters to be developed and shown in particular ways.

“You can try to rationalize your preoccupation with a fictitious pairing all you want, but the rest of the world, those of us who aren’t shippers thus not single-mindedly invested, which is most of us, actually, has cottoned on to this disturbing trend for portraying women in Hollywood, and we’re rightfully calling foul.”

I consider this above to be rather rude and condescending. Words like “rationalize”, “preoccupation”, “shippers”, “single-mindedly invested” etc are contentious words made about someone you don’t really know. Maybe I am sick of people like calling foul of individuals because of what they view as a “disturbing trend”. Just calling it as I see it.

Maybe we should try to live and let live.

767. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#764 Karen:

Thank you, Karen. Been following your posts as well and have been quite impressed. You had me at ‘male gaze’ – to quote the party line. It is truly, sincerely wonderful to meet someone who has read feminist theory in these here parts. :)

As for Uhura’s case, in particular, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Though I did love the Klingon scene, raved about it the entire ride home to my wonderfully patient husband and the Khan scene as well. The rest of her story-arch I felt had the ‘these are our relationship moments for your ladies out there’ metaphorical cue card over it, to be entirely honest.

That said, this…

Of course, what might be nice in the next film is if (assuming Carol’s still part of the crew) those 2 women have a subplot working together that is independent of any romantic relationship they’re in at the time. So they are showcased as talented, kiss-arse characters who incidentally happen to be women. Let them be brilliant officers first, and let their gender be utterly irrelevant to the action.

…I agree with wholeheartedly, and have it in mind to give you a standing ovation for it. Bravo!!! Very well said.

I live in hope that the next film will have exactly this.

768. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 23, 2013

@767 Trekkiegal63 & @764 Karen

“Of course, what might be nice in the next film is if (assuming Carol’s still part of the crew) those 2 women have a subplot working together that is independent of any romantic relationship they’re in at the time. So they are showcased as talented, kiss-arse characters who incidentally happen to be women. Let them be brilliant officers first, and let their gender be utterly irrelevant to the action.”

Unless the word actually does mean what you intended in your corner of the world, I think the word you meant was ‘kick-arse’… ;-)

And on that note, I’ll third the motion.

769. Aurore - May 23, 2013

“Saying his cry of “KHAAAAAN!” was about being marooned in that cave (which he KNOWS he’s not) trivializes all the death and destruction that has come before and just confirms Lindelof doesn’t know what he’s doing and shouldn’t be allowed near Star Trek.”

__________

Stop it.
You are going to hurt his feelings.

At any rate, here is his answer to…the world :

“….But I just care too deeply about Trek to step away…” ( article with video, starts at 2 : 20 )

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/04/exclusive-lindelof-on-when-team-picked-into-darkness-villain-chance-of-abrams-directing-next-trek-more/

770. Karen - May 23, 2013

@768 OSTF

I know! I know! I’m mortified. It’s because I was thinking romance, yes? Romance, kissing … also I’m out of my gourd on pain meds after totally imploding my neck this morning. *g*

771. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

Hmmm, my initial response to you, Keachick, disappeared. And I extended my hand in truce and everything *sigh*. Have no idea what I said to get dismissed by the filters.

To summarize: Responded to Marja perhaps a little too harshly because I felt that she was rude to call me out for expressing an opinion, as well as dismissive of the argument I had presented by generalizing it and misrepresenting it. I will not apologize for expressing my opinion nor should I have to. I am, as always, a free-thinking individual capable of individual thought and not a part of the Borg collective. To expect otherwise is rather presumptuous.

That said, I agree that you and I, despite our rather turbulent history, should do as you suggest and live and let live. I believe, despite our obvious differences on certain topics, we do share more commonalities than we’ve allowed ourselves to contemplate. As such, and in the spirit of sisterhood, I agree with you on living and let live. Shake on it?

772. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

And now both posts are there… what’s with that? Or maybe its the fact that it’s late and I really should be going to bed but had one cuppa joe too many this morning (okay, okay, l’ll be honest… three cups of joe too many). Insomnia kills me, it really does. Sorry for the double post.

773. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 23, 2013

@770. Karen

Sorry to hear about your neck. I hope whatever you’ve done to it settles down soon. There’s not much worse than being in pain AND feeling out of control because you’re on the strong stuff.

774. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#769. ObsessiveStarTrekFan:

Testament to how tired I should be (considering it’s near two in the morning here and I have to get up at six) were it not for my restlessness? Totally missed that. ;)

775. Marja, a different kind of feminist. - May 23, 2013

So I reiterate here for the benefit of all who don’t want to page all the frikkin’ way back to what I said earlier: “Some feminists applaud “fierce Uhura,” and posit that it’s impossible for a truly professional woman to have a romantic relationship. Some of these same people are K/S shippers [that is they favor a sexual relationship between the CO, Kirk, and his XO, Spock, which I've always found completely unrealistic. Kirk and Spock have always been presented as BROTHERS, not lovers]. As for professional women being celibate, cite that same restriction for male professionals and see how far that goes.”

That’s the “some feminists” statement that TrekkieGal is “letting slide.” Thank you very much, TrekkieGal. Believe it or not, post #747 was not directed SOLELY at you. It was directed at the women and men on this board who cannot accept that Uhura has a relationship outside of her professional ones.

“You can try to rationalize your preoccupation with a fictitious pairing all you want, but the rest of the world, those of us who aren’t shippers thus not single-mindedly invested, which is most of us, actually, has cottoned on to this disturbing trend for portraying women in Hollywood, and we’re rightfully calling foul.” YOUCH!

Yeah, it is a disturbing trend, I GET IT. I agree, to an extent, see my remarks below if you are still reading. You know, as someone who likes the relationship I would not classify myself as “preoccuppied with it” or “single-minded”: *You* have done that to me, classified me as single-minded against “most of you, actually” whom you purport to represent. So [sarcasm] thanks for cancelling my individuality and dissing me with a demeaning sentence or two.

I was stationed in California and am familiar with, and value, their EEO policies. So I copped it from your quote, to point out that it should apply to women in *fictional* universes too.

I’m sorry Alison Bechdel doesn’t run Hollywood. But, though she’s a great comics artist, she doesn’t. Her wish to advance women in movies beyond their relationships with men may some day come to pass. I’m not as attached to that theory IN THIS CASE because yes, I do like Spock and Uhura as a couple. As a grown, fully fleshed-out [as much as can happen in an action adventure] couple in Star Trek.

I’m personally invested in feminism. I’m not sure if you remember, and others on the board are tired of hearing me say it, but I served in the military from 1978-1998. It was only in 1974 that women won their place in the active-duty military. Before that, they could serve as Reservists only. So I’ve seen a lot of change as regards women and feminism. I’ve seen backward leaps [the current widespread accusations of rape] and forward strides [ability of women to serve in combat]. Overall, I’ve seen progress, but it hasn’t been easy in the male bastion that is the military. I saw some male views of military females [1] we must be lesbians because we joined the service and didn’t want the particular guys espousing that view of women in the military. [2] that we must be whores to want to join the military. In truth [3] I was neither.

And what I will say now is, progress in the male bastion of the military is *gradual* [and I assume the same for the male bastion that is Hollywood]. And even though gradual, progress for women is littered with people [often men] who don’t understand that women and men can do the same jobs fulfilling the same requirements and accruing the same perquisites.

Those perquisites include relationships. Bob Orci has stated that in Star Trek’s time we will hopefully have moved beyond sexism and sexist roles and sexist limitations. So I for one am hopeful that a relationship like Spock and Uhura’s could exist.

Yes, I get the Spoons Theory, thank you. I read it earlier. I don’t see the world in that same way, pardon me. I see it as larger than that.

But, accepting your theory, if every minute of a 2-hour movie is a spoon, why not write 3 minutes less of face-cracking violence and put science into those spoons? Or another way to see our characters? Uhura sings, maybe she could sing to some fellow crewmembers in the lounge [not including Spock, 'cos that could be misconstrued]? Maybe she could have a teriffic argument about military relationships with another crewmember [heh]. Maybe we could exchange 2 minutes of ship-bashing violence [heh - sorry, unintentional] for serious conversations between or among characters we care about? Kirk and McCoy worrying over something, Spock and Uhura discussing TrekMovie politics, whatever.

I only hope they can do it more civilly than I apparently did. Sorry for my snark in this post, but reading back to my draft, I really toned it down. Trying to stay diplomatic and make generalizations didn’t seem to work though.

TrekkieGal, I see by your presence here that you are also invested in a fictitious relationship, that between fans and other Star Trek fans. :)

776. Marja, a different kind of feminist. - May 23, 2013

*addendum*

“this disturbing trend for portraying women in Hollywood”

The portrayal of women in Hollywood has gotten better than it was previously. It’s improved INCREMENTALLY. Portrayals are acceptable enough now that people are calling Hollywood on the anti-Bechdel thing.

777. Schwa - May 23, 2013

how does one vote, again?

778. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 23, 2013

@777. Schwa

I assume you mean in the polls. The polls are up the front of this article, just before the discussion thread. You can only vote in each poll once.

779. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 23, 2013

@777. Schwa

I think I see what you mean… Sometimes the results show with no apparent way to actually vote. If you’ve been looking at another Trekmovie thread, and then come back to this one, it seems you don’t always get the voting option. If that’s your problem, try closing down you access to the Trekmovie site and then come back in Trekmovie on a new web page, then come directly to this thread. That seems to work for me. It seems to be a bit trial and error. I’m using IE9 as my browser, so I’m not sure if this is a problem with other browsers such as Firefox as well.

780. Karen - May 23, 2013

@776 Mara

Your personal experiences are really interesting, so thanks for sharing them.

Re: portrayal of women in Hollywood. I think in many ways things have regressed. I recently watched a 1938 film, Test Pilot, starring Clark Gable, Spencer Tracy and Myrna Loy. Even though her character is ostensibly ‘the love interest’ she’s actually well drawn, strong, independent and articulate. The three way relationship between her and the 2 male characters is also very strong, and complex. Even more interesting, given the time period and what’s been mentioned here re: the emotionality of the male characters in current Trek, both Gable and Tracy shed tears in the film.

But as I say, Myrna Loy’s character has more agency, and is treated more respectfully, in a film that’s 70 odd years old, than many female characters are today. Which is kind of a worry!

Also? Thanks @ 773. Hopefully drugs will do the trick because really? Ow!

781. Csere Mihaly (@cseremisi) - May 23, 2013

@boborci I tell you where: to some Vanguard inspired story :) That would be awesome. But most important: you should go the TV series way. Not with the Enterprise crew, but some other crew from the same time frame, that could be used for stand alone stories, crossovers with some movie characters, also you might set up the next movie there like you did with Countdown and Countdown to Darkness, but this time around you could use the TV series and not the comics.

782. Karen - May 23, 2013

@776

sorry, the j key on by board is sticky. Marja!

783. Damian - May 23, 2013

731–One way I get my Star Trek fix between shows and movies is reading the novels. Right now there are a bunch of original series novels out there (likely due to the movie, I’m sure). But there is a new Enterprise novel coming out soon and “The Fall” series to include TNG and DS9. I always loved the fact they are continuing the stories from the spinoffs (though an occassional standalone story during the series runs would be nice).

One comment, though, the original series novels are great, but lately, they’re all taking place during the original 5 year mission. How about some new novels during the period between TMP and TWOK. Or how about some stories that take place on the Enterprise-A between TFF and TUC. There’s about a 6-7 year period between those 2 movies that is virtually untouched (save for a few novels here and there). I would love to read some stories about the Enterprise-A.

784. Damian - May 23, 2013

Oh- and here’s hoping now that STID is out, Paramount will allow the release of the 4 JJ Verse novels that have been on hold. I’m sure they may need some revisions to account for STID, but hopefully we’ll see those in the next year or so.

785. Geek Girl - May 23, 2013

So there was a Khan shower scene too and yet they wouldn’t show us that. I’ve got no problem with the panties scene, but why couldn’t they give us ladies (and gay men) something to perv at?

786. Robert Dahlia - May 23, 2013

The Star Trek fan-boys are nitpicking this movie to death and ruining the experience for everyone. They think STID is a direct ripoff of ST:TWOK. I don’t agree, if anything, STID is paying homage to ST:TWOK.

787. Spock Jr. - May 23, 2013

Darkness is paying homage to Wrath, but it is more than that – these events, cataclysmic as they are, are repeating in the new, alternate reality – the universe is telling the same story, but the plot and players are confused, mixed-up. Spock realizes this when he asks how to defeat Khan, knowing it would ultimately be the same, only different…

788. Damian - May 23, 2013

786–Nitpicking is fun though. If we didn’t nitpick it would mean we didn’t care.
Don’t let it ruin your experience though. I had plenty of nitpicks myself, but I still thought it was a great movie overall.

789. Marja - May 23, 2013

784, Damian, I would love to read those – as long as the characters aren’t completely static.

Well, durn it Karen, there you go and pull out a movie made in an era before the Adolescent Boys of Hollywood Ruled Everything.

The screwball comedies of the 1930s were, in my book, some of the best movies ever made. William Powell and Myrna Loy! Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn! Hepburn and Tracy! Cary Grant and Irene Dunne!

I note “Test Pilot” was released in 1938. We were gearing up for World War II at that point; women were being encouraged to be strong. Soon they would go to the factories to work in the war effort, while men were overseas. Many movies of that era highlighted witty, intelligent, independent female characters. In the movies, these women were highly desirable [and sometimes very frustrating!] to men who valued them for what they were and desired relationships with them.

Then … maybe it was the post-war boom, comfortable prosperity, men now home from the war, but in Hollywood, independent, witty women just didn’t seem so important any more. Maybe because they weren’t needed in the war effort.

Here’s hoping we circle back to more independent women in film – but I hope these women aren’t prohibited from having relationships …. “independent woman” is a term that means various things to various people, and to me, it means a woman who is free to choose whether or not she wants a relationship.

790. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 23, 2013

@786. Robert Dahlia

The negativity can be a bit disheartening. However, according to this web site’s own poll, 84% of voters on this site considered STID to be Good, Great or Best, and only 8% considered it Bad or Worst.

There are some virulent haters, but they are definitely the small minority. I’m not sure how long you have been a Star Trek fan, but if you don’t already realise it, trekkies/trekkers tend to be a very nitpicking bunch – we’re infamous for it, and frankly, nothing relating to the Star Trek multiverse is above being nitpicked to death. As @788. Damian says – we find nitpicking fun..

Many who have nitpicked STID on this site actually like the movie overall. If you enjoyed the movie, you are in good company.

791. DarExc - May 23, 2013

I liked it, the only complaint I have is that almost all the Starfleet Admirals were humans and there were no Andorians and no Tellarites anywhere. Those species looked great in Enterprise and it would be cool if they showed up, if cost wasn’t an issue they would have been as common as Vulcan’s in the old series and movies.

792. somethoughts - May 23, 2013

#785

Did the females not get a pine in a wet tight wetsuit showing full frontal? :) goshk imagine pine had to film this scene in the morning or had some random pervy thought during this shot, it would be lol

793. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 23, 2013

@792. somethoughts

JJ was very considerate of the actors’ dignity and any shots ‘a bit too revealing’ were digitally altered.

794. somethoughts - May 23, 2013

Lol would be funny to see a blooper reel of that, props to the actors and actresses

795. William Bradley - May 23, 2013

Of course Kirk behaved as an adolescent in this movie. That’s why he was demoted. And he behaves as the cliche version of Kirk — the one that people who only know him from comedy bits and YouTube clips — throughout.

Abrams’ own words prove the point of what I just said. And YOU try to re-write him!

>759. Keachick – rose pinenut – May 23, 2013
#750 – Except that Kirk did not behave like an adolescent in this movie.

“He takes the absolute cliche version of Kirk — constant womanizer (false), always emotional (false), always prone to violence and not diplomacy (false) — and then directs Chris Pine to give the adolescent version of that.”

Did JJ Abrams actually say or intimate the above? This is what Abrams did say, to use your quote:

“It’s KIRK — who was always this sort of womanizing character … so the intent was to have a beat like that in the middle of all of this action and adventure”

Abrams’ only mistake is to say “always” instead of “some of the time”.

796. Spock Jr. - May 23, 2013

Trek has always had torn-shirts, short skirts and sexy green-girl fun! We’re all still human, you know, not the Borg! :(

797. madtrekfanuk - May 23, 2013

Bob Orci – absolutely loved Into Darkness, can’t wait to see the next one.

Just three minor points (and these may be out your control anyway)…

1. Engineering – ok I know it’s supposed to be TOS era (even given an alternative timelime) but please any chance of a vertical intermix chamber that looks like the engineering in TMP and ST:II?

2. Transporters – bit of consistency please

3. Any chance of hearing a bit of Goldsmith’s TMP theme? I know some TOS purists will probably hate the idea (especially as it became more associated with TNG, but to me it is the defacto Star Trek theme, not Alexander Courage’s)

Really that’s about the only minor gripes (if you can even call them that) that I have with ST09 and ST:ID

Live long and prosper!

798. Robert Dahlia - May 23, 2013

I want there to be more Star Trek movies of excellent quality. But the reality is, box office guarantees the continuation ‘future’ of Star Trek. My fear is the ‘nitpicking’, which isn’t a bad thing, may give the wrong impression to someone on the fence about seeing this movie.

799. Spock Jr. - May 23, 2013

Of course Kirk is a womanizer! Girls get all hot n’ bothered about a guy with a nice car – Kirk has the Enterprise!! I’d get more action too, if I was the captain of a starship! Then again…

800. Phil - May 23, 2013

Looking at the daily numbers of Trek09, and STID, the numbers are tracking very similar. Pronouncing that fans are nit picking this to death might be a bit premature. If next weekend tracks similar to 2009, there’s no reason to suspect STID wont end up with similar domestic numbers at the end of it’s run, and with improved foreign returns, everything should be fine…

801. Robman007 - May 23, 2013

I’d say that Kirk was prone to violence rather then diplomacy in TOS, at times, and was also prone to emotional, irrational train of thoughts. That’s why he had Spock and McCoy to show him otherwise.

Errand of Mercy….his mood was not a diplomatic one. He tried with the Organians, became frustrated, then become hostile once the Klingons landed. He was hostile almost to the point of blowing his cover…he learned his lesson of course….then in Conscience of the King…overly emotional and not thinking right. Obsession, same deal. Hell bent on Revenge.

The good Captain was prone to the same things that the Alternate version of the Good Captain is..just not as extreme.

Yes, both were womanizers. That’s always been a gag of the original series…and who cares. It’s Captain Kirk. Lighten up. It doesn’t detract from him. Just adds to the legend.

802. EM - May 23, 2013

Mr. Orci,

This was a great Star Trek movie. I have no complaints, at all. It was a fun romp and fed into all my Trek geekiness quite well, thank you very much. I must admit that I enjoyed the gratuitous peek at Alice Eve and that Kirk couldn’t help himself! Shows a little bit of his character, really.

I see that it’s not too soon to start speculating about the next movie, What I want to know is this:

Will you use actual 3D cameras next time? (Love 3D)

Did Benedict Cumberbatch sign a multi picture deal with this franchise?

How well will the federation deal with the coming Klingon war without Section 31′s Dreadnaught?

Will Harry Mudds daughter show up?

Will we see more of the “Cat Lady Twins”?

Maybe some Orion slave girls?

How about that Super-Tribble created by Bones? That thing could cause a real ruckus!

Whateve you guys come up with…I’ll be there!

803. Robman007 - May 23, 2013

Also, anyone who has not read the book, pick it up and read it. Alan Dean Foster did a good job of trying to fix some of the plot holes and justify some of the nits that fans like to pick. Good read all around.

804. Josh C. - May 23, 2013

So Into Darkness beat 2009 on Tuesday vs. Tuesday, but not as much as it did Monday. Beat it out by about $260,000. It sits at $98.4 million. It pretty much certainly passed $100 million total yesterday

805. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

756. Disinvited – May 23, 2013

#752. dmduncan – May 22, 2013

My only quibble with your contention is that makers of this film says you don’t have to see ANY prior Trek to enjoy it. So why put in a pivotal scene that getting the most impact out of it requires one to have seen TWOK?

***

I’m not suggesting the Kirk death scene is unenjoyable or incomprehensible without the Spock death scene from TWOK. I’m suggesting that together the experience is (or can be) deeper.

806. William Bradley - May 23, 2013

Yes, because “at times” is not the same as “all the time.” Just as nuance is not the same as cliche.

Kirk is a womanizer, which god knows I don’t condemn, btw, but he’s much subtler than what we get in the reboot version.

Actually, he passes up far more women than he avails himself of, and if I wanted to take the time I’d use some of the episodes you cite, like Conscience of the King in which he uses the young actress as a means to get at her genocidal father, and others to demonstrate that very definitively.

But the womanizer Kirk we are getting leers at women, makes goofy remarks to women, and so on.

It’s the 16-year old version of Kirk. Yet this guy is supposed to be the captain.

And he’s played by a guy who’s in his early 30s.

>801. Robman007 – May 23, 2013
I’d say that Kirk was prone to violence rather then diplomacy in TOS, at times, and was also prone to emotional, irrational train of thoughts. That’s why he had Spock and McCoy to show him otherwise.

Errand of Mercy….his mood was not a diplomatic one. He tried with the Organians, became frustrated, then become hostile once the Klingons landed. He was hostile almost to the point of blowing his cover…he learned his lesson of course….then in Conscience of the King…overly emotional and not thinking right. Obsession, same deal. Hell bent on Revenge.

The good Captain was prone to the same things that the Alternate version of the Good Captain is..just not as extreme.

Yes, both were womanizers. That’s always been a gag of the original series…and who cares. It’s Captain Kirk. Lighten up. It doesn’t detract from him. Just adds to the legend.

807. Geek Girl - May 23, 2013

@792 Somethoughts

Sure if you’re a Pine nut but I’m more of a Cumberbatch girl myself.

808. somethoughts - May 23, 2013

Odd my mess hall post is deleted.

I was saying, give us mell hall with senior officers discussing something profound, ethical and moral with large windows showing us the beauty of the cosmos, using hubble telescope pictures. Also how we need mr spock using his microscope viewer thing on the bridge and how we need to hear captains log and star date!

809. somethoughts - May 23, 2013

#808

No Im a Alice Eve kinda guy :)

810. somethoughts - May 23, 2013

*mess hall

811. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@797. madtrekfanuk,
“Engineering – ok I know it’s supposed to be TOS era (even given an alternative timelime) but please any chance of a vertical intermix chamber that looks like the engineering in TMP and ST:II?”

I wouldn’t hold my breath. Abrams doesn’t seem to have any interest in spending any resources on an engineering set. And I’m convinced we would absolutely not have a new warp core, if it were not an absolute necessity for duplicating TWOK’s death scene.

While I love the TMP’s engineering set, this is TOS, and there’s nothing more iconic than that giant red grill with the forced perspective guts behind it, bathed in soft glowing red light implied immense power and efficiency. If Abrams did build such a set, he would do well to give us a modern take on this feature of TOS engineering, Both an homage to TOS and further setting his Trek apart from the earlier films. Besides, I never really understood the vertical intermix chamber. It was cool, but what was the point?

Honestly, does anything say Star Trek engineering better than this?
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/16200000/Publicity-Photos-star-trek-the-original-series-16246984-740-732.jpg

The biggest problem with Abram’s engineering set is that there’s not one dedicated location that represent it. Every time we cut to engineering we’re in some different-looking place. What’s missing is the master control and monitoring room that ties the industrial pipes into the high tech ship around them. A control room overlooking the pipes would have solved that — a consistent place to find Scot when cutting to engineering, yet steps away from the pipes if necessary.

812. frederick - May 23, 2013

I hope that by the next film (assuming there is one) that the Uhura-Spock relationship has settled down into a more professional mode and they realise that an “office romance” hardly ever works. I have no problem with them having a history, I just think it should become less important to the story. I would like to see them be friends in the way that the whole bridge crew is in TOS.

813. Joe - May 23, 2013

@boborci What to do next time? Use the prologue to cover an alternate version of TOS. For example: the final moments of an epic battle with Khan.

Then, do an original story that isn’t full of creaky plot holes, idiotic uses of the Enterprise, empty characters, the word “shit” out of everyone’s mouth and actually listen to The Captain’s mission statement.

Or don’t do another one and don’t waste my time and money. You took enough of both with this mess.

814. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@800. Phil,
“Looking at the daily numbers of Trek09, and STID, the numbers are tracking very similar. Pronouncing that fans are nit picking this to death might be a bit premature. If next weekend tracks similar to 2009, there’s no reason to suspect STID wont end up with similar domestic numbers at the end of it’s run”

I think the fans are the least of STID’s concerns. The big difference this time is that ST09 did not open in the shadow of a billion dollar blockbuster franchise, or face much competition afterward … Wolverine was a disappointing performer, and ST09 was followed by the equally disappointing Angels & Demons. The third weekend saw the Night at the museum sequel and the horribly underperforming T4. STID is not only opening in the shadow of IM3, but this time is facing a trifecta of a major franchise action film (FF6), a major franchise comedy (TH3), and a major family film (Epic), with IM3 continuing to draw significant box office. A major Will Smith movie (After Earth) comes out the following weekend. The pool is getting quickly diluted by major franchise/real movie star movies to pull the general audiences in a way ST09 never had to worry about. Add to that unlike the previous film, STID doesn’t seem to do much to distinguish itself at the box office. So it’s going to be a challenge to perform as well as STID, much less remain relevant at the box office.

815. msn1701 - May 23, 2013

I loved everything except the fact that Spock was an ASS to EVERYBODY, especially Kirk and Uhura, the people who care about him the most. He only changed when Kirk was dying. I was really hoping that Spock wouldn’t act that way. I know Zach’s Spock is different from Nimoy’s but my god nuSpock is just TOO emotionally closed off for my taste. I don’t care that he lost his planet and his mom. I just don’t think he would be that harsh. That’s my only complaint!

816. steve - May 23, 2013

Boborci, you asked us where we think it should go next? I think Ahmed at post 638 nailed it:

“An original epic story, and no more revenge stories. Two movies were more than enough to cover that! More of Trek trio Kirk-Spock-McCoy would be great.”

I couldn’t have said it better. I thought Trek ’09 was the best of all Trek movies (and I’ve been a Trek fan since the 60s…) But sorry, the new movie was a huge letdown for me. I didn’t want to see Khan again, for multiple reasons. Mainly because it had already been done so well, and because I really wanted to see something totally new.

I understand the writers felt like they needed to deal with the issues of the last movie, mainly how Kirk develops from being thrust into command so soon, to how he matures into the guy who can lead the “5-year mission” into the unknown. Personally, I would’ve been fine with that whole arc being left alone, a time jump before this movie, and we just open with the new crew being ready to go out and face an original story.

I posted a longer review in the previous thread, but suffice it to say that it’s pretty clear that mainstream opinion on the film is somewhat mixed. I’m really hoping the movie does well enough to green light another. And if so, please just make it a new story. No connection to previous Trek. You guys masterfully rebooted Trek into a new timeline the first time around. So now just go with it, and don’t listen to Trek fans who say they want to see stuff they’ve already seen before.

817. NoleTrek - May 23, 2013

@boborci – Great movie, plan on seeing it many times. Loved the twist on Khan. I think many of the long time trek fans fail to realize that this is a MOVIE, not a TV series. It’s about money and bringing new fans and old fans in. Thanks to you guys and your creative team, Star Trek is cool again.

However, at the same time, I understand why a few of the old timers are a little pissed about some of the trek science and plot holes. Somehow, there has to be a balance with all the great action and effects and the stuff that makes sense in the Trek universe. Example…heat from the volcano was too hot for the shuttle but not for Spocks space suit. The whole direct transwarp beaming to Kronos…just the little minor details that can be fixed. Aside from that, fantastic job, I appreciate you guys keeping Star Trek alive and well.

One last comment…would love to eventually see an Enterprise B TV series in the new timeline. We know little about that era. Would love to see James T. Kirk’s son follow in his father’s footsteps rather than his mother’s, and be Captain of the 1701-B…Captain David Kirk. Would be a great excuse to bring some original characters back for guest appearances to appease the old timers…even though I’m only 38.

818. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

753. EllenC – May 22, 2013

Ellen C, you need a disclaimer? Here it is: Dmduncan cannot guarantee that you will find his thoughts and opinions entertaining. Read his posts at your own risk. He will not shut up about whatever he feels like discussing and doesn’t particularly care about Cumberfangirl outrage at his opinions. If he does have an obsession, as you suggest, he’s cool with it and doesn’t require the advice of some anonymous person on Trekmovie for help.

BC turned in a fine performance, but whatever it was, it wasn’t Khan. In fact, after seeing the film again last night, that point was even more sharply made by the unrecognizableness of his Khan next to the INCREASINGLY recognizable Kirk that Pine is becoming.

One was a strikingly good casting decision that became even more apparent this time around. Kirk is growing into the character we know from TOS before our eyes.

But the BC casting decision? Not so much.

Note to Bob for the third film:

I cringe at the thought of a Spock/Uhura Kirk/Marcus double date scene in the third movie. If you dare something like that, it has to be REALLY good.

(But really did enjoy Marcus’s entrance, Spock’s annoyance at her entrance, and her symbolic coming-between Kirk and Spock by taking the seat between them! Good stuff!)

819. Basement Blogger - May 23, 2013

@ 740

Keachick,

You make excellent points.

820. Mad Mann - May 23, 2013

There were two BIG problems I had with the 2009 movie: Kirk’s rapid ascent in rank and the science faux pas.

I have to say, STiD handles Kirk’s rapid ascent well, most of his character story was based on that. I really appreciate that I feel like Orci and others actually listened to tha fans and tried to fix that.

There were very few science fauz pas in this one, and nothing as bad Trek 09. (Supernovae do not ever threaten entire galaxies, and black holes don’t behave like that….) But STiD’s mistakes were trivial I thought. Trans-warp beaming is totally possible, I think.

821. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@748. Disinvited,
“#746. Curious Cadet … Indeed, but I think he very clearly was using all that to sell it to his audience on the open channel as well.”

I saw this movie in the theater, and can tell you I was not nearly so cynical then as to infer that cry as a ploy on Kirk’s part. It was a genuine moment of anguish brought on by the string of horrors Kirk witnessed leading up to that moment. He was NOT ‘acting’ … And I think the power of that moment has been diluted by the popular parody of the line.

Lets look at the original exchange leading up to it:

KHAN: Kill him, Terrell, now!
(Terrell vaporises himself. Chekov collapses)
McCOY: God’s sakes! What is it?
(Kirk vaporises Chekov’s Ceti eel)
KIRK: Khan, you bloodsucker. You’re gonna have to do your own dirty work now. Do you hear me? Do you?
KHAN: Kirk! Kirk, you are still alive… my old friend.
KIRK: Still, ‘old friend’. You’ve managed to kill just about everyone else, but like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target.
KHAN: Perhaps I no longer need to try, Admiral.
(Genisis device is beamed out of the cave)
DAVID: No! …He can’t take it!
KIRK: Khan! Khan, you have Genesis, but you don’t have me!
KIRK: You were going to kill me, Khan. You’re going to have to come down here! You’re going to have to come down here!
KHAN: I’ve done far worse than kill you, …I’ve hurt you. And I wish to go on …hurting you. I shall leave you as you left me. As you left her. Marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, …buried alive. Buried alive!
KIRK: Khan!

There is no ‘performance’ here. Khan has thwarted everything Kirk has tried to do on top of all the murders and destruction. Apparently trapping him in the cave is the least of it. Even if you take Kirk’s last line as motivation, “You’re going to have to come down here”, makes the yell one of genuine frustration as Khan refuses to take the ‘bait’, rather than a trick to convince Khan they are really trapped. Kirk may have lost his last chance to confront and stop Khan, as well as take his anger out on him directly. But there is so much more in Khan’s final taunting speech: “I’ve done far worse than kill you, …I’ve hurt you. And I wish to go on …hurting you.” Khan is not only reminding Kirk of all the death and destruction he’s caused up to that moment, but that he’s going to continue his rampage. Then he reminds Kirk that he is to blame: ” I shall leave you as you left me. As you left her.” Just as Kirk is to blame for the earlier deaths of his crew and crippling of the Enterprise, not Khan. The fact Khan is planning on marooning him is inconsequential. Kirk was already worked up from the first words he utters: “Khan, you bloodsucker.” The yell at the end proceeds from that, not a contrived effort to convince Khan who clearly already thinks he’s succeeded.

822. Robman007 - May 23, 2013

@820…The novel made some sense of Khan’s beaming trick. He daisy-chained it…transporting from one abandonded facility to a ship, to a facility and finally to the Klingon Homeworld, the section of which was abandoned more or less as a ghost story (it was wiped clean of life due to a plague, and nobody was supposed to go there)..

823. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#775. Marja:

Thank you very much, TrekkieGal. Believe it or not, post #747 was not directed SOLELY at you. It was directed at the women and men on this board who cannot accept that Uhura has a relationship outside of her professional ones.

Interesting… yet I was the only one you mentioned by name. Okay, sure, you meant all feminists everywhere. ;)

That said you are, once again, misinterpreting my stance. My whole argument is only about romance peripherally. The romance is merely a tool that assists in diminishing and/or relegating female presence based on how it is utilized (romance can be done well, it just seldom is), the real issue is the one dimensional way in which women are portrayed. Mostly it’s about female presence in film, corresponding with gender stereotypes and how they are damaging towards women in how we’re viewed, thus perpetuating sexist beliefs.

And yes, I knew you had served in the military. I believe I have even thanked you for your service multiple times. I, too, work in a male-dominated industry where sexism is rampart. I work in the biotech industry. Based on my knowledge of your history, I found your dismissive and untruthful attack of my argument immensely surprising.

Those perquisites include relationships. Bob Orci has stated that in Star Trek’s time we will hopefully have moved beyond sexism and sexist roles and sexist limitations. So I for one am hopeful that a relationship like Spock and Uhura’s could exist.

And, once again, my argument is not at all about military regs or relationships being allowed in a professional environment at some point in the distant future. My argument addresses the issue of female presence in film today, now, as we, who are viewers of films like Star Trek, grapple with gender stereotypes in our present time. Star Trek may be set in the future, but it is being shown to the viewing population even as we speak, as such it carries the same problem of female presence within film that most films within these modern times carry.

But, accepting your theory, if every minute of a 2-hour movie is a spoon, why not write 3 minutes less of face-cracking violence and put science into those spoons? Or another way to see our characters? Uhura sings, maybe she could sing to some fellow crewmembers in the lounge [not including Spock, 'cos that could be misconstrued]? Maybe she could have a teriffic argument about military relationships with another crewmember [heh]. Maybe we could exchange 2 minutes of ship-bashing violence [heh - sorry, unintentional] for serious conversations between or among characters we care about? Kirk and McCoy worrying over something, Spock and Uhura discussing TrekMovie politics, whatever.

It’s becoming abundantly clear to me now why you misinterpreted my argument… because you didn’t read it prior to attacking it. If you had you would know that I suggested almost this exact same thing in my post #572. I said, and I quote:

…One or two quick, seconds only scenes, would do the trick: a scene of Uhura singing prior to getting called to the bridge for an emergency, as she did in TOS, or perhaps someone walking in while she’s on a personal call with her sister, etc.

As for this…

I’m sorry Alison Bechdel doesn’t run Hollywood. But, though she’s a great comics artist, she doesn’t. Her wish to advance women in movies beyond their relationships with men may some day come to pass. I’m not as attached to that theory IN THIS CASE because yes, I do like Spock and Uhura as a couple. As a grown, fully fleshed-out [as much as can happen in an action adventure] couple in Star Trek.

I’m fully aware she doesn’t run Hollywood for if she did the problem of female presence within film wouldn’t BE a problem. However, what I’m getting from this little spiel of yours is this: you are aware there is a problem, you agree that the problem needs to be addressed, and yet you make an exception for Spock/Uhura because you like them. Fair assessment? Well, not every feminist is willing to make such an exception to their principals. I’m not. I see Spock/Uhura as part of the problem, not an exception to the problem. And I will not back down from that (unless, of course, Uhura is given more development outside of her romance in future Trek endeavors but until that happens, I call it as I see it).

As for the last part of your post… nope, just trying to be cordial and elicit some good will between we ‘allusive’ female Trek viewers. Nice try at an ad hominem attack though. And to think I used to think you above that, too. I truly don’t like to be wrong in holding someone in high esteem. This entire exchange with you has been immensely disappointing, starting from your blatant misrepresentation of my argument and calling me out by name with a hasty generalization about feminists, and ending in as it stands, now. :(

824. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#775. Marja:

Believe it or not, post #747 was not directed SOLELY at you.

Interesting… yet I was the only one you mentioned by name. Okay, sure, you meant all feminists everywhere. ;)

That said you are, once again, misinterpreting my stance. My whole argument is only about romance peripherally. The romance is merely a tool that assists in diminishing and/or relegating female presence based on how it is utilized (romance can be done well, it just seldom is), the real issue is the one dimensional way in which women are portrayed. Mostly it’s about female presence in film, corresponding with gender stereotypes and how they are damaging towards women in how we’re viewed, thus perpetuating sexist beliefs.

And yes, I knew you had served in the military. I believe I have even thanked you for your service multiple times. I, too, work in a male-dominated industry where sexism is rampart. I work in the biotech industry. Based on my knowledge of your history, I found your dismissive and untruthful attack of my argument immensely surprising.

So I for one am hopeful that a relationship like Spock and Uhura’s could exist.

And, once again, my argument is not at all about military regs or relationships being allowed in a professional environment at some point in the distant future. My argument addresses the issue of female presence in film today, now, as we, who are viewers of films like Star Trek, grapple with gender stereotypes in our present time. Star Trek may be set in the future, but it is being shown to the viewing population even as we speak, as such it carries the same problem of female presence within film that most films within these modern times carry.

But, accepting your theory, if every minute of a 2-hour movie is a spoon, why not write 3 minutes less of face-cracking violence and put science into those spoons? Or another way to see our characters? Uhura sings, maybe she could sing to some fellow crewmembers in the lounge [not including Spock, 'cos that could be misconstrued]?i>

It’s becoming abundantly clear to me now why you misinterpreted my argument… because you didn’t read it prior to attacking it. If you had you would know that I suggested almost this exact same thing in my post #572. I said, and I quote:

…One or two quick, seconds only scenes, would do the trick: a scene of Uhura singing prior to getting called to the bridge for an emergency, as she did in TOS, or perhaps someone walking in while she’s on a personal call with her sister, etc.

As for this…

I’m sorry Alison Bechdel doesn’t run Hollywood. But, though she’s a great comics artist, she doesn’t. Her wish to advance women in movies beyond their relationships with men may some day come to pass. I’m not as attached to that theory IN THIS CASE because yes, I do like Spock and Uhura as a couple.

I’m fully aware she doesn’t run Hollywood for if she did the problem of female presence within film wouldn’t BE a problem. However, what I’m getting from this little spiel of yours is this: you are aware there is a problem, you agree that the problem needs to be addressed, and yet you make an exception for Spock/Uhura because you like them. Fair assessment? Well, not every feminist is willing to make such an exception to their principals. I’m not. I see Spock/Uhura as part of the problem, not an exception to the problem. And I will not back down from that (unless, of course, Uhura is given more development outside of her romance in future Trek endeavors but until that happens, I call it as I see it).

As for the last part of your post… nope, just trying to be cordial and elicit some good will between we female Trek viewers. Nice try at an ad hominem attack though. And to think I used to think you above that, too. I truly don’t like to be wrong in holding someone in high esteem. This entire exchange with you has been immensely disappointing, starting from your blatant misrepresentation of my argument and calling me out by name with a hasty generalization about feminists, and ending in as it stands, now. :(

825. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@817. NoleTrek,
“would love to eventually see an Enterprise B TV series in the new timeline. We know little about that era. Would love to see James T. Kirk’s son follow in his father’s footsteps rather than his mother’s, and be Captain of the 1701-B…Captain David Kirk.”

This is one of the best ideas to come out of the new timeline and the possible offspring of Marcus and Kirk, where Kirk might get to have an active hand in his son’s development.

I would even suggest re-naming him James George Kirk after his father considering the different relationship between he and Carol. It allows for all kinds of daddy issues to be explored, despite his father still being around. Jim Jr. Now has to follow in the shadow of his legendary father and constantly remind others as they might him: He’s not that James Kirk.

Keep in mind too, James T Kirk is dead by this point in the Prime timeline, and as Orci is fond of saying, more things are likely to be similar than different. It’s also probably a good thing unless Pine is eager to make cameos and age himself up about 20 years. Alice Eve could make a ton of money by just doing a few video chats for the series, and of course Quinto and the rest seem more likely to do a few cameos. As for Kirk’s death, they could definitely fix it. A great mystery would be how did James T Kirk die in this universe, as its never discussed, though it would have nothing to do with the Enterprise B or the Nexus. Part of me, really never wants to see a Kirk who ages into graceful retirement anyway. Tough admittedly it will be tough to kill him now, as I hear he keeps a vial of Khan’s blood around his neck at all times.

826. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

…oops, once again sorry for the double post, the first one didn’t show after posting it so I thought it lost.

827. Geek Girl - May 23, 2013

@ Trekkiegal63

That seems to be happening quite a bit lately. The other night my posts would show up at first then completely disappear when I refreshed. I started to freak out thinking I’d been banned for some unknown reason. One of my other email addresses did the trick thankfully.

828. EllenC - May 23, 2013

818. dmduncan

LOLOLOLOL! It’s getting EXTREMELY TEDIOUS! Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Look at the opening credit and end credit of STID, the character he played is Khan, and his performance as Khan is great to many audiences. Such a fact won’t change even if you don’t like it or can’t recognize it.

I Hope you didn’t spend more than 30 seconds on that disclaimer. Have a nice day! (or a good night depending on where you locate) ;-)

829. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

I’m not reading the novel, so it’s murky to me about how Khan beamed to Kronos. As Scotty says, STARFLEET CONFISCATED his transwarp beaming equation, and the next time it appears to us, KHAN is using it to beam to Kronos.

So did Khan steal the equation or was Marcus behind beaming Khan to Kronos giving him the circumstances to start a war?

Because if Marcus beamed him there, then Marcus planted the transwarp beaming device in Khan’s little attack craft, expanding the complexity of the conspiracy.

That implies that Khan himself was a pawn when he blew up Starfleet Archives/Section 31.

If it’s in the film I didn’t catch the part where Khan says or implies that he was himself responsible for beaming to Kronos, so I don’t know how perverse Marcus’ conspiracy plan really was, i.e., if he developed the plan to kill Khan and his crew ad hoc after the HQ attack, not letting the “crisis go to waste,” or if he manufactured the crisis as well.

I think the reason Kirk tends to believe Khan’s story is because Marcus gave him a clue. When Pike dies, Marcus inexplicably accepts responsibility. “His death is on me” he tells Kirk. Marcus didn’t mean for Pike to get killed, but ultimately whether because Marcus made the decision to awaken Khan or because Marcus manipulated the HQ attack as well, Marcus felt responsible for Pike’s death.

That acceptance of responsibility was out of place at the time. It didn’t make sense. It only started to make sense after Khan told his story, becoming evidence to Kirk that Khan was telling the truth.

830. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

828. EllenC – May 23, 2013

Irritate yourself over my opinions as much as you want to, Ellen. I can’t control what you choose to read.

831. Little Al - May 23, 2013

Just seen it and to me the pace had slowed a bit, that’s why the sub title to the last movie, I have called it ST: fast & furious . It was that. What I saw in this was a WOK in reverse. It was too simple for bones to use a tribble to see if Khan’s blood would revive it, and therefore save Kirk. You could almost workout from the start what was happening. It’s not to say I did not like this, I did. Klingons with blue eyes,hell no! Bob O please let’s have a real great adventure next time,if there’s a next time. You might just have to use the old crew,with the Enterprise E. Time travel, Pre-Borgs,Admiral Archer, T’Pol,The NX-01.Something EXCITING !! I have watched the last one several times, lets just see if I watch this one several times as well.

832. Riker001 - May 23, 2013

@ 746. Curious Cadet

Good points in your breakdown…I honestly don’t think that particular scene in this movie was even really needed. To me that seemed somewhat forced to pay that homage. We had enough homage I thought with Kirk and Spock with that scene. The KAHHHHHNNNNN thing to me in this movie came off somewhat cheesy…

With all that said…the more I think about it the more I really like the fact they have brought back Kahn. To me this is Space Seed. Kirk and met Kahn and now they have a back story. I do hope they bring him back for another movie…just not in the next one.

833. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#827. Geek Girl:

Thanks for letting me know! It’s done it to me twice now, so I’ll definitely try the email trick. :)

834. borgmatrix - May 23, 2013

@829

Khan had the transwarp device in the bag he was holding (when Kirk’s looking at footage of the wreckage). So he beamed himself.

Marcus didn’t manufacture the crisis, but saw opportunity to get rid of Khan and the other augments when Kirk asked to be sent after Harrison. I think Orci had mentioned, perhaps on this site, that you can see Marcus putting a plan together in his mind as he’s talking with Kirk.

835. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@829. dmduncan,
“was Marcus behind beaming Khan to Kronos giving him the circumstances to start a war?”

I’m a fan of this theory. I prefer it to the questions raised by Khan’s free movement around Starfleet after he “goes rogue”.

Basically, Harrison designs the torpedoes to hide his crew mates after he somehow manages to liberate them from Marcus. But before he can move the torpedoes, Marcus somehow discovers them and decides Harrison can no longer be trusted. He gives Harrison the assignment, which cannot yet be refused, of blowing up the archives by telling him to use his blood to save Harwood’s daughter and blackmail him into doing it — I wouldn’t be surprised if Marcus wrote Harwood’s note himself. Then he orders Harrison to attack the Captains meeting, and avoid killing Marcus of course. Assuming a retcon of the direct beaming to the Klingon homeworld, Marcus could not have controlled a number of more realistic intermediate transporter steps. I think it doesn’t diminishes anything to suggest Marcus gave Harrison the transwarp device, and instructed him to go there and await further instructions. When Kirk shows up, only then does Harrison learn that Marcus has discovered his plan. But I’m fine with Marcus had Khan beamed directly there as well to strand him where he’ll do no harm and perhaps be killed by the Klingons.

I would still like to know how Harrison was able to rescue his crewmates from Marcus, and what happened that prevented him from moving the torpedoes, and how Marcus discovered them. But I guess that’s not essential. Perhaps the novelization expands on this?

836. into the light - May 23, 2013

@Mr. Orci. The movie is great! I hope to see nevertheless more of “the unknows universe” in the next movies. It would be GREAT if you would make new seasons for ST: ENT with Scott Bakula and Co. It is the only series that works in both realities! Only logical to continue this series. At the same time, the five-year-mission could go on animated AND in big movies :) What a joy that would be for my fan-heart! :) Live long and prosper!

837. borgmatrix - May 23, 2013

@835

Khan said he was discovered trying to hid his people in the torpedoes and had to run. He wasn’t offered any mission by Marcus.

Also, we see Harwood send the message to Marcus.

838. BatlethInTheGroin - May 23, 2013

I have now seen the film twice, and I have come to an inescapable conclusion: Bob Orci and Damon Lindelof have never seen “Space Seed.” They can’t have seen it, as they got pretty much everything wrong about Khan. He was never genocidal–he was a dictator. He didn’t want to wipe out inferior people–he wanted to rule over them. His reign was marked by little killing. “Space Seed” Made that pretty clear. His motives had nothing to do with wiping out the masses–it was about uniting the world under his control. Had they actually bothered to watch the episode, their script might have been more befitting of the character, instead of their trying to make Khan into Colonel Green, which he definitely wasn’t. Unfortunately, their complete lack of understanding of what makes Khan tick made a mess of this film.

839. BatlethInTheGroin - May 23, 2013

Furthermore, it’s absurd to have Spock Prime call Khan the greatest threat to Starfleet blah blah blah, whatever his exact words were. That is in NO way true, and is just a crazy thing to say. If the writers actually believe this to be the case, then they have apparently also not seen any of the OTHER episodes, or any of the prior films–including the last one. This film is utterly ridiculous, due to the incompetency of their writing and lack of research.

840. Jai - May 23, 2013

DMDuncan re: #617:

“Though I can’t recognize BC as Khan or his acting as Khan-like, when considered on its own he did give a damn fine performance.”

Yep, BC was phenomenal, like I’ve said myself. The guy was outstanding as *a* genetically-augmented supervillain. Not believable as Khan, but completely – terrifyingly – believable as another Augment.

I obviously think a North Indian actor would be the best choice to play Khan, but as an alternative, Mark Strong has definitely grown on me. His potential suitability for Khan really struck me when I saw him in the movie “Black Gold”.

The person ranting at you in #753 also posted #758, quoting from this article defending the whitewashing of Khan in STID: http://amanksandhu.tumblr.com/post/50677580748/utopia. However, #758 misrepresents the article writer’s actual position, because it doesn’t quote the rest of her opinions.

Aman Sandhu, the writer of that article (who says she no longer practices Sikhism), continues by explaining she still doesn’t approve of Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan.

Aman objects because she feels she can’t identify with Cumberbatch, apparently because as a white guy he “doesn’t look like” her, a person of colour. She has also completely misunderstood Khan’s character – at least in Space Seed – because she describes him as “evil incarnate”. Aman also talks about how she loves villains, finds them inspiring and wants to be like them. I don’t agree with her on any of these points.

Here’s the main part of the rest of Aman’s article, which makes her real position much clearer than the extract in #758:

“It is disappointing on a different grounds.

As a child, seeing a man of color on the screen with the name Khan Noonien Singh was a godsend. He was incredible, intelligent, different. In a time when everyone that looked like me played a bumbling terrorist, Khan was evil incarnate. And that was okay. Because he was a villain you identified with. He was(is) a badass. IN SPACE.

I’m not angry that the character is now portrayed by Cumberbatch. Hell, I’m even a member of the CumberCollective, he’s phenomenal. But he doesn’t look like me. I will root for the character, because I love villains (my heroes are just good villains), but I won’t want to be him. If I was a child watching this character, I wouldn’t be inspired. That is the issue.”

As a North Indian Sikh, I had a feeling someone on Trekmovie would try to excuse Khan’s racial whitewashing in STID by digging up some random token apologist’s opinions. During the past few years, the Sikh community in Britain has had to deal with some “white nationalist” groups pulling this kind of stunt too.

The issue of Ricardo Montalban being a “white Mexican” is also misleading. Regardless of his actual background, Montalban was treated as a non-white person and he therefore experienced a lot of discrimination in Hollywood during the 1960s: http://www.racebending.com/v4/featured/star-trek-whiteness/

841. Jai - May 23, 2013

Bob Orci, re: #634:

“dont knw where we are going next but have some intincts. also waana hear what you all think.”

I’m guessing a major escalation of the Federation’s conflict with the Klingon Empire would be a logical option. A bunch of Starfleet officers turning up on Kronos in STID and killing a platoon of Klingons wouldn’t be without serious consequences. Star Trek 3 could probably continue the real-life political allegories by referring to the rumblings of war with Iran, for example – with the movie showing what could happen if the situation did spiral into all-out war. Depends on how you want to play this.

The later seasons of DS9 were pretty good at depicting various aspects of war, but a movie obviously has scope for showing things on an even bigger scale. DS9’s Martok is also a good template for a really charismatic, eloquent Klingon leader – and yep, I did notice the reference to Martok’s home province in STID!

This may be moot now, but if you do decide to pick up on the suggestion of John Harrison lying about being Khan, Star Trek 3 could have a couple of good plot angles:

(1) Harrison was pretending to be Khan in order to protect him (it would also explain why Harrison became so emotional when talking to Kirk about his “family” – Harrison’s tears were because of his deep emotional attachment to Khan in particular. If Harrison is really Joachim, this fits perfectly). In ST3, Harrison defrosts the real Khan, but it backfires – Khan condemns Harrison for his terrorism in STID, especially the massacre in San Francisco at the end of the movie. Khan claims this completely contradicts his own principles and is particularly furious Harrison was doing this in his name. Harrison becomes disillusioned with Khan and joins the Klingons.

(2) Harrison was pretending to be Khan because he was a rival Augment leader and used this as an opportunity to usurp him. You could possibly retcon things to reveal Harrison is actually Colonel Green – this would fit perfectly, because canon-wise young Spock’s claims about Khan being a “war criminal” guilty of “mass genocide” against everyone he viewed as “inferior” actually describes Green: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phillip_Green. Starfleet somehow find out about Harrison’s real identity, who manages to escape – or is rescued by the Klingons. Starfleet defrost the real Khan because of his insight into his rival. Khan doesn’t co-operate at first, but changes his mind when he finds out Harrison stole his identity and massacred thousands of innocent people.

(3) In both scenarios, Khan joins forces with Kirk & co (for real this time) and the large-scale war becomes between Khan, Starfleet and the Federation versus Harrison and the Klingon Empire. Starfleet make full use of Khan’s skills in military strategy (if you had Julius Caesar on your team, would you really reduce him to “designing weapons and ships”?). Kirk is very mistrustful of Augments because everything that happened in STID – echoes of Kirk’s attitude towards Klingons in TUC – but Khan ultimately sacrifices his life to kill Harrison and simultaneously save the good guys at the end of the movie. Khan’s body is completely destroyed in the process – incinerated, crushed, or blown apart etc – so no “magic blood” from the other Augments could ever save him.

This would obviously still present the puzzle of who to cast for the role of the real Khan Noonien Singh. You may remember my own first choice, the Indian superstar Hrithik Roshan, who is definitely interested in working in Hollywood and also happens to be Punjabi (as most Sikhs are, although Hrithik himself is Hindu): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBLVb1eL_xk, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsObYH9TkQo&feature=player_embedded. Completely looks and acts the part.

In the first video, Hrithik is wearing exactly the same kind of Indian outfit Khan was shown wearing in “Space Seed” (albeit in a different colour). In the second video – the interview with Britain’s Sky News — you’ll notice Hrithik’s mannerisms increasingly channel Space Seed’s Khan too – including the guy’s effect on women ;)

842. MelyBelle44 - May 23, 2013

Hey my lovelies….

I have a question for all of you guys regarding the reactor scene. It is a little bit of annoyance to me, but I don’t know if I am just being overly picky.

The Vulcan salute stands for LLAP or PALL. In either case, it is completely illogical for a Vulcan, to offer that sentiment to someone that is dying, is it not? That’s why, when I saw the trailers, I was convinced that Spock was the one that was going to die, because I could not fathom any logical reason that a Vulcan would give that sign to someone who was dying.

In WOK, it makes sense, because Spock is the one dying and he is offering a long and prosperous life to Kirk, who will live. That makes sense. Does it make sense to offer a long and prosperous life to someone that is about to bite it?

It would have been more logical, and more touching I think, for Spock to put his hand up like normal, and for Kirk to do the LLAP/PALL gesture.

Someone please tell me they were bothered by this as well, so that I don’t feel like a crazy lady.

843. Damian - May 23, 2013

842–That my be one of those things Bob and Alex missed on. I imagine they thought it only “logical” Spock would offer the salute.

Technically Spock did not say the words. It seemed more a farewell. But you’re right, it probably did not technically fit.

844. Mad Mann - May 23, 2013

OK: the relay method makes sense for the trans-warp beaming, but the actual “beam” still travels at light-speed, and wouldn’t that like 50 or so years to get to Kronos?

OR is the beam itself traveling like a warp-ship? I guess…but it’s kinda weird.

845. borgmatrix - May 23, 2013

@838

I don’t think Khan ever said he was genocidal or that he was going to kill everyone inferior to him. I think that was Spock’s guess, wasn’t it?

In any case, most of the information we received in Space Seed was from the Enterprise crew members. Who knows how accurate some of that is. Just based on what we see, we have Khan place Kirk in the decompression chamber to die and has the rest of the crew watch via view screen. He had no problem with one of his men slapping around Uhura simply because they wanted her to turn on the view screen. Khan orders Spock to be taken to be killed as well, and says they will each be put in there to die while the rest watch until they do what he says. When he first awakened his crew, he tells them the battle is on again, and its not a world to be won this time, but a universe. When you get to TWOK, you have Khan and his people torturing and slitting the throats of the scientists on Regula 1 when he didn’t get what he wants.

In both SS and TWOK, it seems Khan can be easily angered when not getting his way and that he turns to killing people when that happens. Add in his statements in SS about Kirk being inferior, his disappointment at “how little improvement there has been in human evolution”, summing it up by talking about well his kind will do in that century (coupled with talk later of winning the universe in battle), and I don’t think what they did in STID was a stretch.

846. EM - May 23, 2013

@838 & 839 BatlethinThe Groin

Wrong! Incompetent writing? Excessive to say the least. And rude.

However, you are also wrong about Khan and his history in Star Trek. At least, in an alternate universe sort of sense. People have to stop referencing TOS when discussing these new movies. TOS has little to do with this universe unless Spock Prime wants to chime in with his two cents. I know that Trekkers and Trekkies want the timeline to be the same as TOS at least until Nero messed thing up. The theoretical reality of this fiction, though, is that the future can affect the past. It all has to do with quantum nonlocality! True story.
I’d like to see a Mirror Universe movie by this group where Khan is the hero!

847. BatlethInTheGroin - May 23, 2013

Not wrong at all.

848. Robman007 - May 23, 2013

@846…would be easy to say that his universe was an alternate reality even before Nero came about…all Nero did was change this realities future. It’s “walternates” reality..haha!

849. BatlethInTheGroin - May 23, 2013

#846: You’re completely missing the point. It’s SPOCK PRIME who makes that claim about Khan, which means he’s talking about “Space Seed” Khan, not alternate-universe Khan. Thus, the writers don’t understand and didn’t bother to re-watch “Space Seed.”

850. Frederick - May 23, 2013

My own theory is that this was Joachim (he even looked like him) posing as Khan. The real one is still in stasis. Makes el mucho more sense that way, so in my own private mind, that’s the truth and I accept it that way. I postulated that while back anyway.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3e4jZcR_7GA/UCqoOMKfkoI/AAAAAAAAJcY/fh0gvK_ErLY/s1600/joachim.jpg

851. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - May 23, 2013

Space Seed/Khan are near and dear to me, because Gene L. Coon wrote the episode and created Khan, not to mention nearly every important thing in Star Trek.

849

You are spot on.

846

You are not spot on. People have to stop referencing TOS with these movies? Then why bother having characters named Kirk, Spock etc? Why have an Enterprise?

Like it or not, these are Star Trek movies, so basic things should both count, and carry through. BatlethInTheGroin is correct about the cavalier treatment of Khan. Khan’s character was better developed, better written, and had more nuanced subtlety in an old TV episode than this movie. I enjoyed STID, but I could list a lot of things that could have been better/that I didn’t care for.

852. Josh C. - May 23, 2013

839 BatlethInTheGroin -

He said Khan was the most dangerous person (his) Enterprise had ever faced (not Starfleet specifically).

And I think it would be difficult to argue he’s wrong. He damn well near got the Enterprise destroyed (and did indirectly since his battle damage ultimately led to it’d destruction in III) and got one of the main characters killed.

853. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

834: “Khan had the transwarp device in the bag he was holding (when Kirk’s looking at footage of the wreckage). So he beamed himself”

Did he? I don’t recall seeing what was in the bag. I know he had the bag but what was in it or how he got it I don’t know.

Technically the attack on Archives/Section 31 already gave Marcus the excuse he needed to go on a manhunt, but what the attack on HQ gave him was a way to get the torpedoes aboard the Enterprise whose warp core he had sabotaged so that the Enterprise would be stranded at the edge of Klingon space to become the sacrifice he needed to fully militarize Starfleet and start a war with the Klingons.

Prior to Khan’s attack on HQ Marcus’ plan was simply to hunt him down using all the ships at his disposal. Afterward, it was to bomb Khan on Kronos using ONE ship that he hoped would become a catalyst for war, while destroying all the evidence of his conspiracy. So nothing that I recall prevents Marcus from being the mastermind from the beginning, meaning that both the Archive/Section 31 bombing AND the HQ attack were false flags individually designed to get A single starfleet ship to start a war.

As Kirk says, Marcus can’t send Starfleet to Kronos, but he can send an undercover Kirk, which is something Marcus already knows as the head of Starfleet and, presumably, Section 31.

So the second attack gave him something he needed to start a war but didn’t have after the London bombing.

Bob can clarify that of course, but for some reason I think he likes this kind of speculating too much to neatly settle it with an answer.

854. Josh C. - May 23, 2013

853 dmduncan -

While I don’t think Admiral Marcus minded what happened for the very reasons you stated, my biggest problem with that is this: why would Khan play along? Khan had no guarantee that Kirk wasn’t going to shoot all those torpedoes at him and kill him and his crew.

I just think Admiral Marcus simply saw an opportunity to “cleanly” tidy up the situation (in his view) and took advantage of it.

855. Dennis C - May 23, 2013

#850 We’ll never know for sure. Revisiting Khan on screen is not something that will happen anytime soon.

856. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

840. Jai – May 23, 2013

Jai, thanks for the support! I keep mentioning Strong only because I’m much more familiar with his work—he being so much in demand these days and his face showing up everywhere (and he always doing such outstanding work)—than I am with the Bollywood candidates you’ve previously recommended.

It must be an odd mixture of amusement and horror for you to read some of the things people say in here regarding Sikhism and ethnicity by those who defend BC as perfect for the role.

857. William Bradley - May 23, 2013

You have confused spin with science.

>846. EM – May 23, 2013
@838 & 839 BatlethinThe Groin

I know that Trekkers and Trekkies want the timeline to be the same as TOS at least until Nero messed thing up. The theoretical reality of this fiction, though, is that the future can affect the past. It all has to do with quantum nonlocality! True story.

858. William Bradley - May 23, 2013

Yes, unfortunately. The Khan storyline has been thoroughly bollixed by this current group of writers.

>855. Dennis C – May 23, 2013
#850 We’ll never know for sure. Revisiting Khan on screen is not something that will happen anytime soon.

859. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

854: “why would Khan play along?”

Not sure. We know Kirk doesn’t trust him, and suspects that Khan is using them more that they are using Khan, so how much of what Khan says is manipulation to get what he wants? If Marcus was holding the rest of Khan’s family hostage to force him to do his dirty work, Khan was never giving up looking for an angle to get what he wanted. Khan is obviously willing to work together with his enemies to get what he wants, but when the worm turns he’s also ready to enact his own private plan. So it’s hard to take everything Khan says or implies as true.

Khan may have helped Kirk survive during the jump, but it’s hard to believe that Khan expected Kirk to let him go free by the end so that even if Kirk had not phasered him they would have returned to being opponents.

Whatever the writers intended, the various linkages in the conspiracy—AS THEY DO IN REAL LIFE—seem to get murky. We can argue about who knew what and when, about who was double crossing whom.

860. Disinvited - May 23, 2013

#821. Curious Cadet – May 23, 2013

I think you totally glossed over my “Indeed” by which I meant to indicate that I agree with you that Kirk was genuinely feeling what you had contended. Saying it into an open channel communicator was how he used it to sell the fact that Khan had successfully stranded him for eternity when he new otherwise.

Meyer made it very clear in discussing the acting of Shatner in the “prefix code” scene that Meyer’s Kirk wouldn’t telegraph his punches. If Meyer’s Kirk was screaming in frustration in a near loss of emotional control then he would have closed the communicator as he would have been unsure what he might let slip.

861. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@853 dmduncan,
“So nothing that I recall prevents Marcus from being the mastermind from the beginning”

The mastermind in what sense? If Marcus wasn’t ordering Harrison to perform these acts, then how would he be controlling events?

862. Disinvited - May 23, 2013

#844. Mad Mann – May 23, 2013

In the 2009 effort, the transwarp transporter beam connects with a ship traveling at warp. That means the beam has to be able to traverse into warped space. Why would it ever pick a “space” to propagate in that limited it to the speed of light, i.e. until the final materialization target is reached?

863. Robman007 - May 23, 2013

I went back and checked out some comments left on this page from the 2009 film, and it’s funny to see the large amounts of “what if they did Khan” type posts…

…funny how there are mostly complaints now to doing Khan. Folks are now wanting a remake of The Cage…I bet the end result would be the same

864. dmduncan - May 23, 2013

861: “The mastermind in what sense? If Marcus wasn’t ordering Harrison to perform these acts, then how would he be controlling events?”

Other possibility is the Kronos mission was ad hoc after the HQ attack and Kirk’s noble volunteerism, with Marcus not letting a good crisis go to waste. Khan escaped to Kronos? PERFECT opportunity to get rid of them all in one shot AND to start a war.

865. porthoses bitch - May 23, 2013

@811 That ‘s my favorite engineering set. It sort of reminds me of the cylindars on a car motor. I alway thought of those tubes as being the “intermix chambers”.

My biggest gripe with both engineering sets is that I have no idea (from looking at it) where the hell its supposed to be one the ship. The set mentioned above I alway assumed frome their angle that those tubes led to the nacelle pylonns. On Enterprise the episode Catwalk was interesting showing the raw power contained there. At one time in STTNG I think the Borg were infested ther. Jjs hanger deck is too big….Generations did a nice job with the deflector array. A nice curved bulkhead tells you alot…. about location on the ship.

866. Josh C. - May 23, 2013

Whops, are we beginning to see effect of the new movies already.

While Into Darkness beat 2009 Monday vs. Monday and Tuesday vs. Tuesday, 2009 won Wednesday vs. Wednesday $5.8 million to $5.3 million. Though I wouldn’t think the 10pm show of The Hanover Part III would take away THAT much on it’s own.

In any case, Star Trek is now over $100 million at $103.8 million after Wednesday

867. BatlethInTheGroin - May 23, 2013

#852: You really think Khan was more dangerous than every other foe the Enterprise encountered? Trelane, an omnipotent being? Kruge, who so damaged the Enterprise that Kirk had to self-destruct it? The Doomsday Machine, which ate entire planets? The parasites, which wiped out entire civilizations? The whale probe, which nearly destroyed all life on Earth? V’Ger, which nearly did the same? These are all LESS dangerous than a guy who failed to take over the Enterprise and ended up exiled on a planet? Uh… no.

868. Josh C. - May 23, 2013

867 –

Most of those either

1) weren’t necessarily imminent and deadly dangers to the Enterprise (Trelane, parasites from Operation — Annihilate!)

2) Wouldn’t have been under normal circumstances (Kruge)

3) Were more puzzles to be solved than truly dangerous adversaries (Doomsday Machine, parasites, Whale Probe, V’Ger)

And aren’t you forgetting the whole thing with Wrath of Khan. If we were ONLY talking about Space Seed, then I might agree with you. But we’re not.

869. petrichor - May 23, 2013

The soundtrack CD is really lacking. While it has some of the better pieces in the movie, it’s missing 50% of everything else. It doesn’t even have the end credits suite which I haven’t heard in its entirety. When does the expanded version come out?

870. Karen - May 23, 2013

@789 Marja

Oh hell, the entire socio-political underpinning of the pre-during-post War era is … amazing. Spot on with your observations. Bottom line? Women are fully functioning capable dynamic individuals who can do everything the guys have been doing … until we don’t need them to do it anymore, at which point the magic wand gets waved and suddenly they’re helpless little fluffies who need to stay out of the way.

And I swear, if I fall over one more male fan stamping his foot and saying shut up, shut up, you stupid woman, you’re harshing my squee and anyway there’s no such thing as sexism … I could start feeling very jaded about the male of the species.

871. Matt Wright - May 23, 2013

@ Karen – Sorry about the fanboys, don’t let ‘em bother you too much, not all of us of who identify as a (straight) male in gender feel that way, some of us like assertive and intelligent women and would prefer our partners to be equals :)

872. James - May 23, 2013

How about an ORIGINAL story instead of rehashing?

White Khan, magic blood…..really!!!??

HAHAH

873. EM - May 23, 2013

851. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease.

Wrong!

BatlethinTheGroin missed my point as well as you. The point of having Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise in this movie is so that it will be a Star Trek movie, not something else. There could very well be an alternate universe ( within this mythos ) that doesn’t have any of that stuff (DS9, ST:TNG). They are still Star Trek stories, aren’t they?That is the point behind Quantum Nonlocality. Khan may have been a genocidal maniac, not merely a dictator in Spock Primes past. Events of the past (pre Nero) could have been changed by events of the future. Complicated, I know. I know this expands the conversation but, I’m not the only one doing that here.
Anyway, I’m going to politely bow out of this conversation now.
Have fun and go see this movie a bunch of times so we get another Trek flick!

874. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - May 23, 2013

Oh, and by the way, Quinto is not a very good Spock. I said this 4 years ago. Quinto certainly looks like Spock. Perfect face, almost. And he is a good actor.

But, an indispensable element of what makes Spock Spock is his authoritarian basso profondo voice. Spock is brilliantly smart, coldly logical, and tremendously complicated. What makes him compelling is not simply his appearance, it is the WAY he says what he says. When Prime Spock weighs in, it is the last word. It makes the occasions when Kirk disagrees with Spock that much more effective, because Spock is always right, and always SOUNDS right.

Think of “we are entering the Mutara Nebula” or
“You may file a formal protest with Starfleet Command, assuming we survive to reach a Starbase, but you are relieved. Commodore, I do not wish to place you under arrest.”
Matt Decker: You’re bluffing.
Mr. Spock: Vulcans never bluff.”

Nimoy carries these moments off with an air of cool authority that Quinto cannot, with his reedy voice. This may seem a trivial point, but the combination of Quinto’s emotionalism and lack of authority is a little off putting so far. Pine is does a fine job, but in many ways Kirk is easier to pull off. I don’t dislike Quinto’s Spock, but an element is definitely missing.

Nit pick over.

875. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

“I’m just tired of all the in-fighting. Time to go back to the bbs (where I’ve never once had my posts disregarded in their entirety just because of my user name (how shallow)).”

Bullshit and you know it. Nobody has done that to any of your posts, even when you called yourself Spock/Uhura Fan. You certainly did that to me, though, when I called myself as I am doing now – using “rose pinenut” as part of my pseudonym. You may say you want to see all the characters get a fair go, but then get ansy at the very notion that James Kirk and Carol might get some screentime in the next time. You got ansy about any romantic screentime given to Kirk, period.

You only came here to talk about how the writers didn’t give enough time to the Spock/Uhura romance. They got a good amount of time and clearly that your beloved S/U relationship is on track. You shouldn’t have been more happy, but no…however, nothing is certainly about a Kirk/? relationship I might “ship”

- There you go, Trekkiegal, I could also be something of a “shipper” – so beat me…:( -

Please – go back to bbs, if that’s what you want. I know who you are…:(

876. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - May 23, 2013

873. EM

Fair enough, but first off, I am never wrong. Ask anybody.

As for quantum municipality or whatever, that is just a writer’s euphemism for “we are writing it this way, dammit”. I agree with your point about TNG and DS9 not being Star Trek. They’re not.

Groin’s point stands. They should have tried harder to get it right. It’s just a business decision anyway. They figured that Khan was a known name, it was a safe bet, BC is a great screen presence, so let’s play the Khan card. OK. I can even agree with that, as a realist. If we don’t get fannies in the theater seats, no more Trek movies!

But, if you are going to pander to me as a fan who will like the movie because of some degree of familiarity/nostalgia for a past character, you shouldn’t wheel him out, and then have him be totally different.

877. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#875. Keachick:

There you go, Trekkiegal, I could also be something of a “shipper” – so beat me

Wow Keachick, there was absolutely no reason to bring me into this. No reason at all. I have nothing to do with your previous dealings with this other poster (wasn’t even aware you two ‘knew’ each other).

…Guess you weren’t in the mood to mend fences. Let the record show that I tried.

878. Biffa Bacon - May 23, 2013

Man, the amount of neckbeard butthurt in this thread is hilarious. Each and every one of you nit-pickers sounds exactly like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, gnashing teeth in impotent rage over a perceived mishandling of your favorite FICTIONAL character.

Relax, disconnect from reality for a couple of hours, and let yourself enjoy a movie without getting your knickers in a twist over the layout of the engineering room on a science fiction spaceship!

Oh, and the movie was awesome. More of the same in the next one please!

879. Mad Mann - May 23, 2013

@862 Disinvited:

Wait, what? So, one of the postulate in Einstein’s special theory of relativity is that the speed of light is measured the same in all reference frames. So, any “beam” could only go at the speed of light, which is actually pretty slow as compared to the distances between stars and stuff in space. Starships get around this postulate by warping space around them so that it is space that is moving, not the object. It’s cheating and very fake, but whatevs, it works in Star Trek. My problem is that it takes a warp engine on the actual object that is moving to do the actual warping of space for that same object, so what is warping space for the “trans-warp beaming?”

In other words: what is creating the warp bubble for the beam to travel in to go faster than light? I guess it could go sub-space or some other made-up crap. I just wish the current writers of Star Trek took the time that Gene Roddenberry did to make sure the science was at least plausible and established a set of rules for the fictional technology. Yeah, I went there. And I’m drinking.

880. THX-1138 - May 23, 2013

#878-Biffa Bacon

As is the amount of wild eyed, rose colored glasses, enthusiasm.

More of the same in the next one please!

You mean, evil bad guys bent on revenge who fly around in Enormous Black Ships? Because that would make three movies in a row so far.

Relax, I’m just pointing out that there are always differing perspectives. Noe of us are right, we just have our opinion. I try not to get too cheesed off at someone else’s.

881. Ahmed - May 23, 2013

Anyone think that it might be a good idea to bring in new writers, in addition to a new director, this time around ?

882. William Bradley - May 23, 2013

It will be a surprise if they don’t, which makes much of this dialogue rather amusing.

883. THX-1138 - May 23, 2013

#881 Ahmed

I think it would be good as well. I still say that I enjoyed the heck out of the first 20 minutes of the movie. That sort of style and feel and yes, mission, would make a compelling Trek movie. One that I would thoroughly enjoy.

884. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 23, 2013

I see that there doesn’t seem to be an answer to “any thoughts?” Okay.

@#877Trekkigal63

I’m only posting right now because you seem reasonable. Even though I have not agreed with you completely, your posts have always seemed rational and I haven’t seen you drag other posters into an exchange you are having with another poster. Contrary to what someone is saying, there have been 2-3 people here that have said a reason to disregard my posts was my username, and I continue to believe that shallow.

There was a time, and perhaps I should not have said anything, when I did point out, after months of observation, what looked to be online stalking behavior that seemed a little “nutty” to me and in fitting with a certain chosen name, but I have never disregarded anyone’s posts. If TPTB choose to make the next film about Kirk/Carol then that’s up to them. It will fall right in line with catering to the TOS fans of this website.

Anyway, if you ever get tired or want a bit of a change, then it would be nice to speak to you on the trekbbs. It’s more of a mix of people and generally the posters are not over the top. I go by Spock/Uhura Fan. If you join, you can send me a PM and we can talk. You are correct in your assumption that trying to mend fences is futile. I tried too.

885. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

Trekkiegal – I guess it is because you seem quite rabid and critical towards anyone who appears, to you, to be a “shipper”, like Marja. You publicly cry foul about it. It can affect people. I know I am probably being over sensitive and rightly shouldn’t really care about what you or anybody else really thinks, but you are constantly crying foul of people just trying to positive and creative for the most part.

There are always extremists and crazy people like those who I actually mentioned here a while back, but I suspect that the majority of fanfiction writers or “shippers” for particular relationships are just ordinary people who want to express their interest and creative imaginations.

I suppose this was my way of “crying foul”

886. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

Spock/Uhura Admirer/Fan – You are a lying bitch. That is all I will say.

887. William Bradley - May 23, 2013

Hey, there’s a lot of good stuff in STID. A few changes here and there and whatever other issues might exist are relatively easy to ignore.

I mean, there were a number of issues with ST09 — Delta Vega moving from the edge of the galaxy to being a moon of Vulcan, the amazing coincidence of Kirk being ejected to within a few miles of not only Spock but Scotty, stuff like that — but the basics were so strong, the casting was excellent, the energy was off the charts, there was nothing that was a massive insult to one’s intelligence, so it was let’s roll!

>883. THX-1138 – May 23, 2013
#881 Ahmed

I think it would be good as well. I still say that I enjoyed the heck out of the first 20 minutes of the movie. That sort of style and feel and yes, mission, would make a compelling Trek movie. One that I would thoroughly enjoy.

888. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 23, 2013

“Spock/Uhura Admirer/Fan – You are a lying bitch. That is all I will say.”

Unlike you, I do not resort to name calling, but I will say that your statement above is the lie. The posts (if they are still there) will back me up. That is all.

889. Ahmed - May 23, 2013

@ 887. William Bradley – May 23, 2013

“I mean, there were a number of issues with ST09 — ….. — but the basics were so strong, the casting was excellent, the energy was off the charts, there was nothing that was a massive insult to one’s intelligence, so it was let’s roll!”

Agreed about ST09, IMHO it was much better than STID. True, the villain was one dimensional but the movie altogether was exciting. I watched it like 3 or 4 times in the theater & more on DVD. STID on the other hand, I watched it just once.

I think they need to bring in new writers with fresh ideas. Two movies with the same writers is more than enough.

890. Karen - May 23, 2013

@871 Matt

You, sir, and the guys like you, are the reason I don’t go utterly batshit with despair. *g*

891. Karen - May 23, 2013

Oh, and something else that occurred to me about the film.

One of the big points Pike raised while chewing out Kirk was the fact that he never listened. So what I really really liked going forward from there was how Kirk spent the rest of the film learning from his crew – because he listened to them. He listened to Scotty and Spock about the torpedoes and the morally questionable mission. And then when Chekov took responsibility for the crapped out engine when it clearly wasn’t his fault? You could see him really hearing that, and taking it on board. That’s great character work, great writing. So kudos to the team.

I also like how that theme was widened to include Spock and Uhura. She really needed him to hear her, to listen to her concerns. And while he wasn’t prepared to do that, at first, when she tried again, and Kirk backed her up, he did listen. And he took the brave step of opening up and sharing his state of mind, which was really personal and confronting.

So yay for that too.

892. Terry - May 23, 2013

@633 boborci

My congratulations to you and the whole team on an outstanding movie.

After Benedict Cumberbatch’s unforgettable performance as Khan, I hope there are no thoughts/plans to do a “bait and switch” and reveal that he was actually some other character. Yes, some fans have validly pointed out Khan’s original heritage, but Mr. Abrams and your team clearly picked the best actor for the role, and it is up to us – the fans – to use our imaginations in addressing/dismissing that discrepancy.

As for the next movie, there seemed to be strong hints of a Klingon war brewing, so I hope you continue in that direction. As vicious as the Klingons were in the latest movie, perhaps the next film could have Kirk eventually come to respect his ostensible adversaries and – just maybe – lead the way in averting a disastrous war and forge a lasting peace.

That, to me, would be a worthy homage to the legacy of the Original Series (and Star Trek VI).

One other thought- I suppose Khan must really have it in for Starfleet (not to mention Kirk and Spock) now, so perhaps if he were to be revived (maybe by a Klingon sleeper agent in Starfleet) he might consider defecting (as Admiral Marcus speculated) to form an unholy alliance with the Klingons against the Federation…..

893. Alan - May 23, 2013

@Terry, go freaking become a writer, those are some of the most creative ideas i have seen in a while

894. porthoses bitch - May 23, 2013

I took a break from the infighting and name calling here tonight and watched Space Seed on blu-ray…….my god, that’s some good Trek.

895. James McFadden - May 23, 2013

Should we turn Robert Beltran into a Romulan?

896. porthoses bitch - May 23, 2013

*********************KROYKAH!!!!!******************

897. BotanyBay - May 23, 2013

I’m telling ya…a reveal in a future movie. Klingon ship hails the Enterprise and the Klingon on screen removes his helmet…BOOM! KHAN! He escaped and took a Klingon ship in the midst of the war…

898. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@897. BotanyBay,
“I’m telling ya…a reveal in a future movie. Klingon ship hails the Enterprise and the Klingon on screen removes his helmet…BOOM! KHAN! He escaped and took a Klingon ship in the midst of the war…”

Yup. Could have been the setup from day one, and explain why helmets have been added in the first place.

Of course Khan needs help to escape, so that could be interesting. Another hawk in Starfleet, or Dr. Soong hears about Khan?

Then too, Cumberbatch has to be available and willing to reprise the role, which he may not be interested in doing. In which case, of course, they have an out …

The Klingon on screen removes his helmet to reveal a swarthy human with a long mane of hair. Kirk asks who he is, and he replies “Khan Noonien Singh”. Kirk and Spock exchange incredulous looks, before learning how Khan escaped and how they previously faced his disloyal former lieutenant, now executed for his betrayal — but more importantly how he was no threat compared to the REAL Khan.

899. BotanyBay - May 23, 2013

Problem with bringing back Khan is just that…how in the heck does he escape from Cryo in what seemed like a secure facility? Only real idea I have is some other double agent/starfleet officer but that seems like such a retread of STID’s ideas.

Also, I’m not a fan of the “Cumberbatch wasn’t Khan all along, this guy who looks like Montalban is the real Khan!” idea. I think we should just accept that Sec31 changed his look or something and move on. This series can definitely go on without a Khan reappearance…but he was so good that it’d be kind of cool to have him back one day. I just think him controlling one Klingon cruiser in a fleet battle between Klingons and Feds would be cool. But hey that’s just me

900. Curious Cadet - May 23, 2013

@899 Botany Bay,
“I just think him controlling one Klingon cruiser in a fleet battle between Klingons and Feds would be cool. But hey that’s just me”

Not just you. It actually works well with Khan’s character. much better than the story they gave us. It would be an entire Klingon ship filled with the rest of his crewmates — they would have all escaped from Starfleet … SOMEHOW. And while another hawkish starfleet officer seems like a retread of STID, well these guys seem to specialize in retreads, so I suggest we just accept that and move on as well.

But Khan in command of a ship, working with the Klingons to defeat the Federation, only so he could then turn on the Klingons and conquer them as well … Now that sounds like Khan. This gives Kirk an opportunity to join forces with the Klingons to defeat Khan, and avert war with them — who needs the Organians when you have Khan to bring everybody together?

Damn. That would have been a much better movie to use Khan in … Makes for a good two parter though …

901. EllenC - May 23, 2013

@840 Jai

1. I had made it clear that it’s an excerpt as well as posting the link. If I had the intention to hide anything, I wouldn’t have given the link; the only reason I didn’t paste the whole article here is because it’s a long post, and if now we are going to do justice to the complete thought of original poster on Tumblr, here’s the last few paragraphs that you chose to left out:
“This isn’t about ‘whitewashing.’ Contradictory to popular belief, racism goes both ways.

Khan Noonien Singh influenced the type of person I am in some ways. Not quite so powerfully as Ursula LeGuin’s red skinned, Ged from EarthSea. He and characters like him, helped make me the type of writer I am. Not afraid to make a woman of color my main character.

So no, it isn’t wrong, but it’s disappointing and I will get over it.”
Again, here’s the link:
http://amanksandhu.tumblr.com/post/50677580748/utopia

2. I have never denied or even touched the subject matter in connection with Mr. Montalban’s social status and career in the industry at his time in any of my comments, as the ethnicity, skin color and the comparison of appearances of the actors, are the main discussion topics in those comments I responded to.

3. FYI, Mr. Mark Strong is an Italian heritage; let’s back to the Tumblr OP’s disappointment you have pated here, the loss of the recognition in the character because the similar appearance the OP and Mr. Montalban’s Khan may share and the loss on the even deeper level of the representation of “our kind” by Cumberbatch’s casting, I can’t speak for the OP of that Tumble article, but I suspect that Mr. Mark Strong, a white British actor with an Italian heritage, cannot fill that bill either.

902. porthoses bitch - May 23, 2013

Simple enough Section 31 changed Khans appearance so that a pasty white guy would never be mistaken for a Sikh Warrior. And allow Khan to not draw attention in W.A.S.P.’y Starfleet..

Or did Section 31 alter Khan’s appearance to demoralize him. Theres a well known WW2 plot to make Adolf Hitler’s mustache fall out, the feeling was he did not look ” strong ” without it.

903. Inigo Montoya - May 23, 2013

Wasn’t there a sweepstakes where two people could win non-speaking roles in this movie? Who won?

904. EllenC - May 23, 2013

@840 Jai

Sorry for forgetting to say this in my previous comment: I fully understand that you disagree with that Tumblr article in part of in full, and I’m not going to (and actually have no abilities to) get into the argument in the field that I am not part of that/ your community; I’ll remain neutral and open-minded.

905. Ahmed - May 23, 2013

@ 899. BotanyBay – May 23, 2013

“Problem with bringing back Khan is just that…how in the heck does he escape from Cryo in what seemed like a secure facility? Only real idea I have is some other double agent/starfleet officer but that seems like such a retread of STID’s ideas. ”

oh don’t worry,, I’m sure the same writers who came up with the “magic blood”, will come up with something as logical as that!!!

906. Phobos in Montreal - May 23, 2013

IMAX can thank Paramount/Star Trek for bringing me back to the movies. I loved it so much I am going back for a 3rd showing this weekend.

Just signed up for the credit card to get Scene Card movie points, approved SMS for contests, installed the Cineplex app on my BlackBerry Z10.

I am now all involved. :-)

Thank you Paramount.

907. Nick Tierce - May 23, 2013

@boborci

As an aspiring screenwriter nowhere near the point in my career where I could get a meeting with you guys, I’m happy to oblige with some unsolicited thoughts for the future. (It’s interesting and refreshing that you are so willing to field these. Other writers on other sites are ambivalent for legal reasons.)

As many fans have noted since the release of the last film, and especially now: the time for the McCoy addition to the triumvirate has come.

The best TOS episodes functioned in a way that narratively positioned McCoy, Spock, and Kirk as figures of Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis. The theme of the week was explored through polar opposite action potentials presented by McCoy and Spock as Passion and Logic, where Kirk must reconcile into divisive action. It was always Kirk’s Action tempered by McCoy’s Passion and Spock’s logic.

This would lend itself particularly well to the feature screenwriting form, as endings are most effective when they are surprising yet payoff an existing setup. With McCoy and Spock presenting dualistic options in reaction to an antagonistic situation, Kirk can easily surprise in an established way by acting in a unexpected synthesis of their two actions.

You guys have written two great two-handers. It’s time for the third hand.

Some other thoughts from an observer with varying levels of nerdy specificity:
1. Don’t be afraid to go full romance. Put Marcus in a Keeler situation if you have to.
2. Don’t buckle to the cries of the fans too lazy to see past the initial reference. Feel free to use as much of canon to your dramatic and thematic needs as possible. Those willing to participate enough to see past the reference will acknowledge the original nature of the narratives your crafting despite them.
3. Thank you all for your work, and please tell Damon to stop apologizing on twitter. I know he still has a Lucas complex, but he’s really talented and doesn’t owe anyone anything.
4. Tom Hanks for Matt Decker

908. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

“1. Don’t be afraid to go full romance. Put Marcus in a Keeler situation if you have to.”

Oh please no – not another “let’s kill off Kirk’s love”. Been there, done that, too bloody often.

909. Trekkiegal63 - May 23, 2013

#885. Keachick:

You know what’s interesting Keachick… and I mean this in the nicest way possible as I have no desire to run the risk of dragging the mod into this… I have similar impressions of you, only the reverse, that you’re intolerant of any ideal that doesn’t match *your* own and that you go out of your way to demean and attack someone who doesn’t share your views. You have done this to me (and others) several times, to the point of name calling and casting aspersions. You also insert yourself into every single conversation I have with other posters or drag my name into conversations I am not a part of. My impression from this?

You really want me to know you disagree with my views.

Well trust me. I know. I am fully aware of this fact. EVERYONE we’ve ever interacted with on this site knows by this point that Trekkiegal63 and Keachick are opposites of the spectrum when it comes to almost everything, but especially sexism, feminism, fictional romance, and gender stereotypes.

And now I see that you have a similar history with someone else… not to be mean or demean here, but doesn’t that tell you something? You view me as a bully? I view you as one! One I refuse to back down to because that is my nature. I don’t back down to anybody, ever. In fact, when people come at me, like you have, it actually serves to make me dig my heels in even more. Yup, I admit it, I have a bit of a rebellious streak. Always have, always will. ;)

As for shippers, my policy for engaging them is this (with one caveat of course – that I’ll get to in a bit). If they are courteous to me, I am courteous back. If they came at me in a rude and abrasive manner? Well, they’ve set the tone for our entire conversation as I’m perfectly able to give as well as I get.

However, I do admit to one frailty, one that I’m trying to work on to better my interactions here but I have a hard time controlling because it riles my anger like no other (what can I say, my temper is slow burning, but definitely there)… when a shipper dismisses sexism or feminist theory, a very real, very prevalent, very long-standing (as in centuries old) concern, because it goes against their love of a fictitious ‘ship’? I admit it, I see red. As I see red whenever I see anyone dismiss sexism as ‘not relevant, not real’, in fandom AND in real life. So to be fair, it’s not just shippers who push this particular button. But oh yes, it is a button. It’s the button that starts nuclear fall-out.

As for Marja, not only did she inadvertently hit on my biggest pet peeve. She completely misconstrued my stance, assigning a hasty generalization to my argument (I expect because she didn’t read the entirety of my argument – if she had she would have realized that our views on feminism aren’t that different, its just in how we apply it to the Spock/Uhura relationship that differs). And she named dropped me while doing it, for which I get jumped from both you AND her for calling her out on in.

Well, I’m not a doormat, and refuse to ever be one. Not my nature. And my principles are finite, and held to my chest in a badge of honor. But should you wish to co-exist peacefully so we don’t end up banned (as I have no doubt we were on the road to achieving with some of our more extreme flair-ups) I offer this treaty… I will treat you with respect and courtesy, but I expect the same out of you. I believe we can achieve this, but in order to do it, we have to let go of the old hostilities and grudge-holding. And, most of all, we have to come to peace with the fact that, well, we just don’t share the same views or ethics.

…It’s kind of a shame, too. When I first started interacting with you on this site, I was actually pretty excited to meet another Trek fan of similar age, who was also the mother of an adolescent girl.

910. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 23, 2013

“when a shipper dismisses sexism or feminist theory, a very real, very prevalent, very long-standing (as in centuries old) concern, because it goes against their love of a fictitious ‘ship’?”

After all the posts I have written over the past three years on this site about so many (Trek) related topics, including sexual discrimination and sexist attitudes that can be held by both men and women, how can you say that about me?

Maybe you are not the only one who might have pet peeves and maybe you are not the only one who feels that they are not a doormat and don’t want to be treated as one.

You do not know the history between me and Spock/Uhura Fan (that was her original pseudonym) and you do not know why she changed the name to Admirer. It was something she started and she was offensive and hurtful. She is an obsessed Spock/Uhura relationship shipper and gets sarcastic and nasty if anyone differs in their opinion. The fact is that I like this new S/U Trek relationship and have said so from the start, but because I want to see a (Pine) Kirk get the opportunity to have a decent love relationship, she made fun/was critical of my pseudonym – rose pinenut, among other things. When I mentioned, after she directed criticism against me, that “Fan” could stand for fanatic, she changed her name to Admirer. I guess it is OK for her to call herself S/U Fan but not for me to call myself Keachick – rose pinenut.

All she practically ever does is write about S/U and little else. In many ways, she is no so different from you, in that most of what you write about is to do with your views on feminism, sexism in media and film and “shipping”. You are more polite though.

You both seem to have agendas and quite single-minded about them. I guess I have my own agendas as well, but I do talk about Star Trek in general as well, as topics come up…to each their own.

911. Disinvited - May 23, 2013

#879. Mad Mann – May 23, 2013

Don’t blame you for being confused. I left out that signals travel faster than light in subspace which I assume has a transwarp variant. That is what I meant by the transporter signal would pick the faster space.

912. Disinvited - May 24, 2013

#899. BotanyBay – May 23, 2013

You are forgetting those are his crypods with which he has been dinking to get them in the torpedoes. I’d be really surprised if after all his Fed modern training and super spy schooling he didn’t build or activate a failsafe in the pods so that if he was ever stuck in one against his will or fails to regularly check in they spit the others out with some instructions on how to rescue him.

913. Trekkiegal63 - May 24, 2013

#910 Keachick:

guess I have my own agendas as well, but I do talk about Star Trek in general as well, as topics come up

As have I, actually. If you recall, I’ve also tangled with others defending Shatner, defending Trek’s use of the allegory, and I believe that at one point you and I were on the same side defending TOS Kirk’s reputation, as well as other interests. However, this board did get to the point, when the new movie dawned closer, when most posts became Into Darkness” geared specifically. When that happened discussions centered around the trailers, which included the Alice Eve underwear scene, and posters started coming out prominently featuring Uhura (which I thought awesome) and sexism within Trek became a dominant topic. It’s certainly not indigenous to just here. It’s been a dominating topic in the reviews as well.

As a feminist, you betcha I’m going to jump into the fray. You betcha. It’s a cause I stand behind in real-life as well. As I’ve mentioned to you previously, I head a group meant for women in my field where we meet and discuss gender imbalance and combating sexism in our industry, as well as give speeches meant to empower. But, admittedly, most of my reading and activity surrounding feminism I’ve done for my daughter’s sake. So she can see through example that she does have a place in this world, that she can do anything she wants, accomplish anything she wants, and that no one, NO ONE, has the power to tell her she can’t because of her gender or take away her free agency. Her possibilities are as limitless as she wants them to be.

But to dismiss me as single-minded? I am firm in my stance on feminism, yes. But you were trying to be belittling there, that’s why you did that, and that was beneath you, Keachick, as well as uncalled for. I see we’re still hanging on to our hostilities. Okay then. I’ve tried twice now. I wont try a third. Up to you, now.

Also, as you point out, I haven’t been on this board for ‘years’ so if you’ve spoken out against sexism, I haven’t seen it. In fact, and not to be insulting here, this is just an honest reflection of how I feel… I’ve always felt that you’ve been dismissive of it. And of feminism. And of anything that might occasionally clash with your love of the romance genre.

Again, that wasn’t meant to be insulting. That is truly and earnestly the impression I have.

But no matter. It is what it is. My guideline to engaging shippers extends to you as well. If you’re courteous to me, I will be courteous back. Approach me rudely or abrasively, don’t be surprised when I call you out on it. Because I will.

Have a good evening, Keachick.

914. Trekkiegal63 - May 24, 2013

#884. Spock/Uhura Admirer:

It’s been nice to meet you, Spock/Uhura Admirer. I do have an account at trekbbs, though I’ve seldom use it as I truly enjoy the commentary here… most of the time, lol. Sometimes it can get, well, yeah. But I shall definitely look you up next time I’m there. And I wanted you to know, before you go, that I appreciated your openness to the discussion on female presence in film, and the ‘male gaze’ in that other post, even with the two of us standing on opposites on the shipping issue. It was most refreshing.

915. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

I was not belittling you by saying that you are single-minded in presenting your views on feminism and sexism. I was stating a reality.

The point is that I don’t want to be known by a label, whether it is a “shipper” or “feminist” or by any other name. If I have a label, it is human female, followed by my given name, Rosemary or Keachick and variations thereof. I can “ship” on Kirk having a love relationship with Carol? or whoever. I can also speak up about what I see are people exacting violence and discrimination upon others, whether they be of a political, religious, racial and/or sexual nature. I can speak to my own heterosexuality and be cognizant and sensitive about those who do not share my heterosexuality. I can speak about politics, science and science fiction, religion, spirituality, my liking and concern/care for Chris Pine and the character he plays… – to the extent of my knowledge and understanding, which is all we can do about any topic actually.

I am not a box. I am not a label. I am me.

916. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

” You do not know the history between me and Spock/Uhura Fan (that was her original pseudonym) and you do not know why she changed the name to Admirer. It was something she started and she was offensive and hurtful. She is an obsessed Spock/Uhura relationship shipper and gets sarcastic and nasty if anyone differs in their opinion. The fact is that I like this new S/U Trek relationship and have said so from the start, but because I want to see a (Pine) Kirk get the opportunity to have a decent love relationship, she made fun/was critical of my pseudonym – rose pinenut, among other things. When I mentioned, after she directed criticism against me, that “Fan” could stand for fanatic, she changed her name to Admirer. I guess it is OK for her to call herself S/U Fan but not for me to call myself Keachick – rose pinenut.
All she practically ever does is write about S/U and little else.”

Since the above concerns me, here goes:

“Fan” was changed to “Admirer” for clarity. While I am a fan of the couple, I am not fanatical. I did not, and do not, participate in the same seemingly online stalking activities that another poster appeared to be a part of. (I’m sure some people that are here now were neither here at the end of 2011 and in 2012 for the constant run downs about Chris Pine’s personal/public life and itinerary nor for a complete and very detailed critique of every photo of him posted here as well as other things.)

For the week that I’ve checked in on threads here, it looks like she’s calmed down quite a bit, but even if the hadn’t, her fan activities and how she chooses to express her deep fondness for Mr. Pine/Kirk is up to her.

On a “Trek Movie” website, I have talked about what I liked most about the “Trek Movie(s).” That’s what everyone does here, and everyone has their “thing” that they seem to like and talk about the most.

While I like a lot of things, S/U is what I like most and, consequently, what I got pulled into defending. I say “defending” because of the very hostile, very nasty, comments I ran into regarding them, which even extended to the actors playing the characters, the writers, the director (oh boy, the director!), and pretty much anyone else involved. At the time, lot of people here really seemed to have difficulty with not making it personal. And, from time to time, I admit that I got dragged into that, but I refused to stoop to some of the levels I witnessed, and I still refuse.

My issues with “Keachick – rose pinenut” began when she chose to agree with another poster here that basically said that all Kirk fans are happy social blondes and all Spock fans are unhappy, anti-social, and gothic brunettes.

That was so over the top, I just could not believe she would fall for that, but she confessed to being a blonde at natural blonde in her younger years that “still has a few blonde hairs left,” if I remember correctly, so maybe that had something to do with it. I just could not believe that for someone that talks about equality and fair treatment, she sure seemed to throw that out of the window when someone’s faulty assessment put her on top.

And so our divergence of opinions began…

As I’ve mentioned before, I am civil to people that are civil, but I have no problem with returning the favor when someone is not.

917. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@#914

Trekkiegal63, likewise. It was nice getting to see through someone else’s eyes through rational discussion. I’m not at the bbs all of the time, but I’m there now. So, if you do visit that neck of the woods, then it will be nice talking to you. :-)

918. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

Thank you for reminding of your own callous insensitivity and downright stupidity. The other poster said that having been to one or two Star Trek conventions that she had an observation that female fans of Kirk were more likely to be fair/blonde and that his more “animus nature” tended to attract a certain of person, whereas Spock fans were darker featured/brunette types. I do not recall her calling Spock fans unhappy or anti-social. It was an impression she got, but really had no actual stats or whatever to back up impression or otherwise.

You were so rude and dismissive of such a notion and of the other poster and me simply because I wrote that, coincidentally, I could easily be one of Kirk female fans that she had seen. You were offensive towards me. I recall the other poster called YOU out on YOUR faulty interpretation of her post, when you persisted with your warped view and then proceeded to compare what the other poster wrote to these Kirk fans being like the women in the movie the *Stepford Wives where all the men had their wives replaced by artificial replicants programmed to do their every bidding without question.

I was disgusted and personally offended by the comparison that you, Spock/Uhura Fan made and I still am.

When I said that I did not interpret what the original poster wrote in that way (and that poster confirmed it), you persisted with your sick, warped interpretation, continuing to go at me. I also told you that the movie Stepford Wives was one of two movies that I absolutely abhor because it gave me nightmares for quite a while after seeing it only once (the other film is Rosemary’s Baby with Mia Farrow). My revelation just seemed to encourage your sarcasm and general nastiness.

So you were the one who accused me of (cyber) stalking? You little **** There was a discussion about the actors doing STID bulking up for the movie and I commented about the validity of Chris Pine doing same. He, Zachary Quinto and Benedict Cumberbatch were the only three who were told to gain 15-20 pounds in muscle. When you see the movie, it is clear why they needed to. I found out how much Chris Pine weighed and his height can be found on his IMDb homepage. I did his BMI score based on those figures. Apparently that, and other stuff that any idiot could find out just by googling Chris Pine, constituted stalking. Once again, the sarcasm, the bitching, the meanness from you flowed…You accused me of doing what you were actually doing, except that I wasn’t and don’t.

It is really hard not to call you that name.

919. Karen - May 24, 2013

@916 S/U A

For whatever it’s worth, y’know, I really love that relationship too. I bounced like a giddy bouncing thing in the first film when it was revealed, since I really believe they were taking their cues from a couple of quite pointed scenes in the original series. I haven’t been around long, so I have no experience of the trials and tribulations you mention, but I am dismayed. Seriously, sometimes I can only shake my head.

So, just in case you ever felt you were alone … *g*

And also fwiw, there’s been some great back and forth in this space. It doesn’t matter that we’re not all on precisely the same page. I’m learning stuff and thinking about stuff thanks to you and Marja and Trekkiegal, and others, and I’m really grateful for it.

920. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

So much projecting. If people could only look at themselves…

The “poster” that made the faulty assessment was a man, not a woman. I have, and had, a feeling that after he made it, he just sat back, ate his popcorn, and watched. There’s just really no way what he said was true.

So anyway, Post#918 is a good example of a level I am just not willing to stoop to.

I’m not going to drag another person through the mud to seem like a victim. Here’s a link to the thread in question. People can walk away from it with their own views:

http://trekmovie.com/2012/01/28/zoe-saldana-talks-star-trek-sequel-hints-at-more-uhuraspock/#4488892

921. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@#919

Karen, I am grateful for you too. Thanks. :-)

922. McCoy's#1Fan - May 24, 2013

#919 .. what pointed scenes in TOS suggest Uhura has any feelings for Spock and vice versa? There are scenes that point to Uhura having feelings for Kirk, particularly her admission to Kirk in Plato’s Stepchildren.

Spock was always the interest of Christine Chapel.. in Amok Time, after Uhura says ..”she’s lovely Mr. Spock, who is she?” and he replies “She is T’Pring, my wife.” it is Christine’s crushed look we see, not Uhura.

Spock/Uhura is strictly the invention of JJ Abrams as part of his build up of her character and making Spock more overtly emotional.

923. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

Addition to post#920,

The comment that sparked things off was #338.

#922

That’s not really true, but I’ll let someone else more familiar with TOS answer you to give examples if they want. The new Spock (at least not in the ’09 film wasn’t overtly emotional, but I do agree that some things were off in this last film. Just my opinion, though.)

924. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

^ and what I mean is it’s not really true that TOS Spock/Uhura didn’t have any kind of attraction/like of one another. I’m not disagreeing with the rest of what you said.

925. Karen - May 24, 2013

@922 McCoy

Arrgghh! Now you’re asking me to remember stuff and I have brain fart happening. I can tell you the scene but not the ep title. The main one was in the mess hall, Spock was playing the vulcan harp and Uhura was singing and she was kind of flirting/teasing with him as they did a little duet, and he was as close to smiling as he ever got. Other stuff was on the bridge, when there was a certain amount of teasing going on between them at various times, and another time when he paid her a very pointed compliment.

Now granted, I absolutely agree with you that in the original timeline nothing ever happened between them. What I meant, and wasn’t specific about, was the feeling that their rapport was such that given the alternate timeline, their attraction is not without precedent. At least, for me, this time around it totally works for me that their relationship became a full blown romance/partnership … because of what I was shown in the original series. So when I see it in the first film, the first thing I thought of was those particular scenes, and how cool it was that the writers had picked up on that vibe. As for Uhura and Kirk, I never felt that kind of vibe between them in classic Trek. I think she liked him and respected him and admired him very much, but never for one moment was there sparkage between them.

But it’s horses for courses!

926. Geek Girl - May 24, 2013

If this thread were an episode we’d be stuck in the middle of the Dominion War.

927. Disinvited - May 24, 2013

#925. Karen – May 24, 2013

I believe the episode was CHARLIE X.

928. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

Khan Trutherism is reaching absurd levels at this point. They came up with Klingons wearing helmets in the first movie JUST SO they could have a reveal in the 3rd movie of the “real” Khan, which would completely Knee Cap their 2nd movie.

Makes perfect sense!

929. Karen - May 24, 2013

@927 Disinvited

Ah! yes! Thanks, I think that’s it. Now I should go watch it again … *g*

930. Disinvited - May 24, 2013

Wired has an interesting spoiler filled review:

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/05/star-trek-into-darkness-carol-marcus/

931. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

930 Disinvited –

while I think there are a lot of things to complain about in this movie, this article looks like someone looking for things to complain about

1) Carol Marcus – OK, she doesn’t do a lot, but c’mon, she saves McCoy from vaporizing, and also reinforces the idea that Khan might be right that there may be something wrong with the torpedoes. Look, the underwear scene is gratuitous, but the full view lasts like, what? a second? And yet that’s the only thing people can focus on.

2) This is just hilarious:

“Abrams has faced criticism from the start for how far he’s militarized Trek, and, in doing so, lost the original’s spirit of exploration, of solving problems by out-thinking them rather than outgunning them.”

While there is certainly mental games in Wrath of Khan, which I think was largely missing in Into Darkness….come on, ships were cutting up each other with phasers in Wrath of Khan. And as people noted, the Enterprise seems to have won out in Into Darkness without firing a single shot (that people have been able to discern)

But I do think they largely hit the nail on the head about the Khan stuff

932. Damian - May 24, 2013

922–The team admitted at one point the Spock-Uhura romance was their creation alone, not based on anything from the original series.

It was the fans who pointed out at least 2 instances of flirtation. On was “The Man Trap” where Uhura is flirting with Spock, asking him why he doesn’t tell she’s a beautiful woman or how the moon looks on Vulcan (where Spock predictably comments Vulcan has no moon).

The other was as someone else noted “Charlie X” when Uhura is singing.

When this was brought up, I think it was Bob Orci who noted they never thought of that when writing for their romance.

933. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 24, 2013

@932. Damian

Here is an excerpt from an Interview IGN did with Orci & Kurtzman in October 2009:

IGN: How did you decide to make Spock and Uhura a couple?

Kurtzman: It actually came from the original series…

Orci: There was a little flirtation in the original series. But we thought that since we were doing a harmony on some of the things that were happening before, well, what happened in the original series? The first interracial kiss was with Kirk. So we thought what can we do that’s different, but that still pays homage to that? Spock!

The link is here : http://au.ign.com/articles/2009/10/21/xena-transformers-star-trek-fringe-and-beyond?page=3

934. Damian - May 24, 2013

933–That sort of contradicts something else I read. I’ll have to look around for it. But they were seemed surprise there was that flirtation in the original series.

935. Aurore - May 24, 2013

878. Biffa Bacon – May 23, 2013
“Man, the amount of neckbeard butthurt in this thread is hilarious. Each and every one of you nit-pickers sounds exactly like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, gnashing teeth in impotent rage over a perceived mishandling of your favorite FICTIONAL character….”

__________

I find myself often discussing a fictional character who is far from being a favourite…of mine, in fact.

As a matter of fact, because he was never my favourite, I did not want to see him in the sequel.

However, in my opinion, and I already said so before, changing a character’s background/ethnicity, is contrary to Star Trek’s overall message of racial, cultural diversity.

In other words, and, speaking for myself, my “nit-picking” has more to do with what Star Trek : The Original Series as a whole means to me,i.e.; what it stands for, from my humble point of view, more than it has to do with any attachement to a specific fictional character…

I do not feel any rage .

I do, however, feel sad when I think of one of the “creative” choices made by the powers that be, in 2013, for a (Star Trek) movie.

936. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2013

@928. Josh C.,
“They came up with Klingons wearing helmets in the first movie JUST SO they could have a reveal in the 3rd movie of the “real” Khan, which would completely Knee Cap their 2nd movie. Makes perfect sense!”

Glad you agree. ;-)

First of all that’s not what I wrote. What I wrote and implied was that they came up with the helmet for a dramatic reveal at some later point in the trilogy, quite likely Khan. I have absolutely no problem understanding that the filmmakers intended Harrison to be Khan Noonien Singh, this has been made abundently clear from just about every interview and casting effort they made. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t still be lying — considering they lied to protect their ‘secret’ that Cumberbatch was playing Khan in the first place, but I digress.

Nevertheless, these are the same guys that went out of their way to audition every Latino actor they could find, then cast a white guy anyway without changing anything about the story. What makes you think if they have already mapped out a trilogy from day one that they would change any of it just because Cumberbatch decided not want to reprise his role? So what would they do? Re-cast Khan again, or take the open window allowing Harrison to have lied about being Khan?

Believe what you want, but I completely reject your contention that revealing Harrison was only pretending to be Khan in any way ‘knee-caps’ STID. What Harrison calls himself is the least important element of the movie, and as such has no impact on the integrity of the film whatsoever. Don’t forget, Harrison could have admittedly been called “Schmucko” and would not change a thing.

937. somethoughts - May 24, 2013

I think they can create a tv show series and just call it SECTION 31 and get peter weller, bc, etc to do it, why not? JJ loves top secret spy stuff and this would be a hybrid of alias and star trek.

There is so much material here for them to show the underside of star trek. The entire tv series begins with the nero events and marcus reviving khan.

Boborci I want credit for this lol

938. Barney Fife - May 24, 2013

’nuff said:
Commenting on the newest entry in the “Star Trek” feature film dynasty, Shatner said: “The new film has story based on the old film. So it’s of interest from many points of view of folks interested in ‘Star Trek.’ … This new one, for example, is masterpiece of special effects and wonderful storytelling devices that we didn’t have in the old show. But we didn’t know that. This sophistication wasn’t around. … It’s a monument to the longevity of ‘Star Trek,’ almost 50 years, and here we are with energetic, vibrant film that brings new magic to this old franchise.”

Full article:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/arts_entertainment/2013/05/william_shatner_to_make_appearances_here_for_star_trek_screenings.html

939. Damian - May 24, 2013

933–Found it. This was from an article on this site 05/22/2009 when a bunch of people were asking Bob Orci questions about Star Trek (2009). Here, he states he learned about the previous flirtations after the fact.

sean: Was the Spock/Uhura romance something you came up with off the top of your heads, or was this based on the few subtle allusions to Uhura’s crush on Spock from TOS?

BobOrci: It was off the top of our heads, although after the fact, we looked back at some episodes and noticed a moment or two of flirtation that we’d never noticed between Spock and Uhura

940. Damian - May 24, 2013

939–Although in the article you noted–it seems they were more influenced by the interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura

941. Mel - May 24, 2013

# 922. McCoy’s#1Fan – May 24, 2013

“Spock/Uhura is strictly the invention of JJ Abrams as part of his build up of her character and making Spock more overtly emotional.”

Completely agree. The only somewhat “romantic” canon relationships in TOS between regular character were Chapel’s one-sided crush on Spock, and Kirk’s and Rand’s mutual attraction to each other. But nothing came out of it, because Kirk wasn’t willing to act on it.

Of course shippers with shipper goggles tend to interpret things into scenes, which they want to see. S/U shippers are definitely not alone. Fans of all kinds of ships do this, in the Star Trek franchise and other franchises. There is nothing in itself wrong with this. But there is still a difference between canon and what you only see with shipper goggles.

942. Mel - May 24, 2013

I think I like the start of Into Darkness the most of the movie. We got a completely new alien planet and alien race and there was no villain in sight bend on revenge. It was refreshing. There were also no fist fights, which happened quite often in a movie with advance weapons.

Overall I really hope for a original story in the third movie. Please no singular villain bend on revenge again. And no Klingons and Romulans. Only the Borg would be worse than those two. If you have to use a whole alien race as the bad guys, create a new one or at least use one, we have barely seen in any Star Trek series before.

And let the Federation and Earth be a little more utopic again. Just because we have currently terrorist attacks, corrupt politicians, dubious secret services, civil wars, etc on our planet doesn’t mean, that it has to be portrayed in a Star Trek movie. Star Trek is supposed to be about a BETTER future and not just about the future. So I hope the next movie isn’t about internal Federation/Starfleet conflicts and that for a change no humans residing on Earth has to fear for their lives.

And action scenes are fine, but the movie also needs room to breath, to make the plot clearer, to explain character motivations, ect. Just hurrying from one action scene to another doesn’t make a movie better.

943. Phil - May 24, 2013

@909…You just figured that out?? :-)

I kid, of course.

944. Barney Fife - May 24, 2013

@ 942
I agree with what you are saying and that’s why Star Trek’s real home should be a TV series – so they can tell stories with more character development. But I don’t think the powers that be will grant $200 million dollars to an old-school trek movie. That just wouldn’t sell enough tickets in todays world.
In the ideal world we’d have a TV series and an epic Trek action movie every 2 to 3 years. But I’m starting to understand the dynamic between CBS and Paramount which has roadblocks to the ideal world. JJ couldn’t get beyound that so I don’t know who can. And that is a bummer. Someone needs to solve that by 2016. The 50th would be an ideal time to have an epic movie in the summer followed by a new TV series in September 2016.

@ boborci:
Are you able to comment on the CBS/Paramount thingy?

945. Damian - May 24, 2013

942–I frankly hope Earth is not involved at all in the next movie (except that many of the characters come from Earth). In fact, I hope the Enterprise is far from Earth when they have to face whatever they face in the next film.

The last 3 films have focused on Earth being in some danger, whether from Schinzon’s thalaron weapon, Nero’s red matter or John Harrison/Khan.

946. William Bradley - May 24, 2013

Trek needs to avoid becoming Melrose Space.

947. Gary 8.5 - May 24, 2013

946.
At this moment, it very clearly isnt that, so, there is nothing to worry about.

948. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

Well, I guess since I’m not getting a response to “Any thoughts?” I’ll throw in my own thoughts:

- Follow up on the loss of Vulcan. Have they found a suitable new planet? Does the Enterprise stop by for assistance, or for Spock to bid his father farewell, and perhaps receive some counsel, as he heads off to explore for 5 years? Maybe a bonding ceremony (if not a wedding) happens for Spock and Uhura there. It would be nice to see Nyota and Sarek interact a bit. Has Spock ever met her parents? I would guess so. Perhaps they could meet there for the ceremony too.

- Cover some part of Uhura’s backstory. Perhaps it can be relevant to the plot somehow. Why did she choose to become a xenolinguist? What was her life like growing up, and how did that shape her desire to join Starfleet? Please use her talents, at and away from her station, in meaningful ways.

- Find something meaningful for Chekov to do within his own job function. Maybe have him connect with one or two of the other characters so he doesn’t seem isolated. He should have a chance to excel and not just apologize for not being Scotty. Since he’s been shadowing him, maybe we can see a bit of that with Scotty and Chekov interacting (and Keenser) so we can see a bond forming there.

- I know Dr. McCoy out on the bridge is nice, but it would be even better to see him working in his element. I’m sure there’s something that could happen there. ER spent 15 years writing only medical related content focused on the busy hub of a hospital. McCoy’s hub of the ship is the Enterprise’s hospital.

- It would be nice to see Carol and Nyota start/have a friendship. Maybe they have lunch together and talk about their work. It would be funny if they both mention that Kirk hit on them when he met them. I know Carol is supposed to be for Kirk, but if that doesn’t happen, then it would be nice if she ended up with McCoy.

- Give Sulu something awesome to do with helm control. He and Chekov sit next to each other so much that they must talk, or do they? Perhaps they work on navigating a tough stretch of space together with Kirk and Spock minimally interjecting.

- This Kirk isn’t as seasoned as the one from TOS (to the best of my understanding), so it would be nice if making decisions and succeeding was more of a team effort. That’s what worked in ST09, and my takeaway from this last film is that this was built on. So, in the next film, especially heading out on a 5 year journey, it would be nice if this were solidified.

- And last, but certainly not least, please bring back the Spock I saw in ST09. If he’s having issues, then this is where Vulcan culture and perhaps a trip home and some more guidance from his father would help. Maybe we see him meditating and finding some kind of relative peace afterwards with Uhura there as a support. And of course, he would also be there to support her too. It would be nice to see some of the inner workings of the telepathic bond forming, or that he already should have formed, with Uhura as she is his mate, and how they can use that to their, the ship’s, and the mission’s advantage.

So, those are my thoughts…

949. MelyBelle44 - May 24, 2013

I swear good gracious, I leave this place for two days, and I come back, and the conversation is still on (or in many cases, has moved on from and looped back to) Uhura and/or Spock and Uhura.

I mean, good God man….the discussion turns to maybe, what, 5 minutes of a 2 hour movie? 80% of the conversation is directed at less than 5% of the entire movie? Over the course of both movies, including deleted scenes, you are looking at 10 minutes, if even that, over the course of 5 hours.

There are thousands of things to discuss from this new TrekVerse. Thousands. At what point do you move onto something new. The horse is dead….get off!

950. Jovius the Romulan - May 24, 2013

I was personally a bit disappointed in certain aspects of the film, such as the gratuitous/pointless underwear scene with Alice Eve (who is no stranger to full frontal nudity either, but it at least served the story in that case). The two alien women were kind of funny, but did the camera really need to linger on them? Jeez, at least insert some more shots of Kirk shirtless or something. Or Spock — for God’s sake, if you’re gonna do fanservice, that’s what a lot of fans (female AND male) want to see! Quinto’s just as attractive as Pine, if not more so according to many. Somebody said the problem is that it’s a heterosexual testosterone tank and I agree. That was my worry from the beginning of Star Trek 2009. I think it’s showing more in this movie than the last. They need a female and/or LGBT perspective here. Why was there no female security officer when they went to Q’onoS? Speaking of which, where are the gays in Star Trek? It’s about damn time we got more than that Deep Space Nine episode.

Re: Cumberbatch… yes, I know they were trying to cast a Latino actor in the role for a while, but why not someone who is actually Indian, as Khan is more or less supposed to be? The casting was imperfect originally, but at least Montalban had a brown tint to his skin. Or, at the very least, a line that explains how they changed his appearance in line with his new identity as Englishman John Harrison would have been nice. Some have suggested dark makeup, but that’s a tricky area and might have led to even more racism accusations. I love Benedict Cumberbatch and his performance here, but I think Abrams and company should have tried harder to cast more appropriately.

I also agree with the comment saying that some flashbacks to him as ruler of a quarter of earth in the ’90s would have been nice. It wouldn’t even have to be a convenient Spock mind meld, just a dissolve as he narrates to Kirk what happened and how he tried to change the world for the better. Would have helped garner more sympathy from the audience.

Ah well. It was still an enjoyable romp and I’ll still buy it on Blu-ray Disc, but I hope the Supreme Court is listening. A few changes would have pushed the movie from good to excellent.

951. dududada - May 24, 2013

to Mr. Bob Orci,
please read post #308 by EllenC, and/or more recently #892 by Terry

952. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@#949 Mely,

Nothing is stopping you from discussing these “thousands” of other things. You could have just as easily posted about one of those instead of also commenting about Uhura and Spock/Uhura.

953. boy - May 24, 2013

941. Mel – May 24, 2013
# 922. McCoy’s#1Fan – May 24, 2013

“Spock/Uhura is strictly the invention of JJ Abrams as part of his build up of her character and making Spock more overtly emotional.”

Completely agree. The only somewhat “romantic” canon relationships in TOS between regular character were Chapel’s one-sided crush on Spock, and Kirk’s and Rand’s mutual attraction to each other. But nothing came out of it, because Kirk wasn’t willing to act on it.

Of course shippers with shipper goggles tend to interpret things into scenes, which they want to see. S/U shippers are definitely not alone. Fans of all kinds of ships do this, in the Star Trek franchise and other franchises. There is nothing in itself wrong with this. But there is still a difference between canon and what you only see with shipper goggles.
————————————————————————————————

Quick note on S/U and K/S shippers

The S/U fans take the Charley X scene and turn it into something deeply romantic

The K/S slash fans take the kirk ad Spock brotherly friendship and turn it into something sexual and romantic.

Only thing is K/S are never going to be lovers or romantic partners in any Canon Trek Universe. S/U gets to be canon only in one universe.

954. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@950 “Or Spock — for God’s sake, if you’re gonna do fanservice, that’s what a lot of fans (female AND male) want to see! Quinto’s just as attractive as Pine, if not more so according to many.”

Mmmhmm. We’ve seen Kirk at least twice now, but I suppose a lean, shirtless, lose the chest and arm hair, Spock will have to be a hope deferred.

955. gavabot - May 24, 2013

the only star trek review that matters

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-star-trek-into-darkness/

956. Trekkiegal63 - May 24, 2013

#950. Jovius the Romulan:

Jovius! It’s good to see you! How are you? So, new film… scale of 1 – 10, what would you give it?

#943. Phil:

LOL! No worries, Phil. I hear ya. I have no delusions that Keachick’s and I’s exchanges got old really quick. Heck, they got old for *me*, I can only imagine what everyone else felt. But to answer your question… I knew it after our first exchange, it’s just hard to remember it sometimes through the blind rage. ;)

#948. Spock/Uhura Admirer:

This…

Cover some part of Uhura’s backstory. Perhaps it can be relevant to the plot somehow. Why did she choose to become a xenolinguist? What was her life like growing up, and how did that shape her desire to join Starfleet? Please use her talents, at and away from her station, in meaningful ways.

And this…

It would be nice to see Carol and Nyota start/have a friendship. Maybe they have lunch together and talk about their work.

Yes! Well said! I second this.

957. William Bradley - May 24, 2013

Oh but we have little lovers spats as we head into combat already …

And an ENDLESS debate over blah blah.

>946. William Bradley – May 24, 2013
Trek needs to avoid becoming Melrose Space.

947. Gary 8.5 – May 24, 2013
946.
At this moment, it very clearly isnt that, so, there is nothing to worry about.

958. MelyBelle44 - May 24, 2013

@952

Okay time out…hold your horses. As Spock said, you misunderstand me.

For one, I have tried to talk about these thousands of other things, and it doesn’t get very far. Or, it does, and yet, like I said, it keeps coming back to the same old thing.

By the way, I am on your side in all of this….my post was aimed more or less at the complainers. The moaners and whiners that seem to turn any and every topic into a referendum on Uhura and/or Spock and Uhura. The people who inexplicably turn a thread about the Star Trek video game into how terrible a person Zoe Saldana is.

There are things that people don’t like. You think I’m happy Pike died? Because, I’m not. But, I’m not going to bring it up in every single thread I post on. And, I am certainly not going to call the production team a bunch of names and threaten to boycott a movie. And, four years from now, I doubt I will be whining and crying and being a Bitter Betty about Pike’s death.

959. Jovius the Romulan - May 24, 2013

Hey Trekkiegal! I would give it an 8. I thought it was pretty well paced, but could have used more moments of downtime. But afraid I have to take points off for what I mentioned. Had they fixed that and give the women some more to do (besides Uhura speaking Klingon and repeatedly shooting Khan on stun — screw that, I would’ve set the damn thing to KILL and shot him in the legs!) it would have been closer to a truly great film.

I’m not as bothered by the TWOK homage as some, but a few changes could have made it a bit less obvious. I’m not sure why they were fixing the warp engine anyways… couldn’t they have used the chemical thrusters WE JUST SAW IN THE PREVIOUS MOVIE?

960. Winkie - May 24, 2013

@955

Wow, Jay and Mike REALLY didn’t like it.

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag/2013-episodes/

961. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@958 Mely,

You have my apologies. I am so used to the people here that jump against Uhura and Spock/Uhura that, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise in a post, I just assume that is the case. I wholeheartedly agree with your statements. Thank you.

962. EM - May 24, 2013

955. gavabot

These guys are fun! I don’t always agree with them, but I still love their reviews. I’ll have to watch this when I get home! Can’t wait for the Plinkett review!

963. Trekkiegal63 - May 24, 2013

#959. Jovius the Romulan:

Yes, that’s pretty much my ranking as well (well, I go back and forth between 7 and 8 depending on whether the gratuitous underwear scene is fresh on my mind ;)). And, btw, I also agree with every point of contention you raise, from the female presence to the exclusion of LGBT presence, to the Khan casting (and I say this as someone who is Latino – well, half – my mother was from Mexico, my father’s parents, Portugal), for all that BC did a phenomenal job.

I have placed it in my top five, however, after Undiscovered Country but before First Contact.

964. Mel - May 24, 2013

@ 955. gavabot – May 24, 2013

“the only star trek review that matters

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-star-trek-into-darkness/

They have a point that the whole mission of Niburu and not just Spock’s rescue was against the prime directive. If they would have followed the prime directive, Spock would have never been in danger, because they wouldn’t have tried to stop the volcano from erupting.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prime_Directive

“The Prime Directive, also known as Starfleet General Order 1 or the Non-Interference Directive, was the embodiment of one of Starfleet’s most important ethical principles: noninterference with other cultures and civilizations. At its core was the philosophical concept that covered personnel should refrain from interfering in the natural, unassisted, development of societies, even if such interference was well-intentioned. The Prime Directive was viewed as so fundamental to Starfleet that officers swore to uphold the Prime Directive, even at the cost of their own life or the lives of their crew.”

They also say this at 11:45:

“Kirk rescues Spock, but Spock doesn’t care, because he is an emotionless Vulcan.” “Except when he is not for no reason.” “Except when he is highly irritated, angry or crying.” “Which he is all the time.”

Just what I am thinking about NuSpock. He showed emotions very openly all the time in the last two movies.

965. Damian - May 24, 2013

953–Agree about the bromance with Spock-Kirk comment here. I don’t understand the perception some have of a bromance. In Star Trek, Kirk-Spock and McCoy were a family. Brothers. I’d even go so far to say love, if you will, but familial love, the love one has for a brother, a father, a mother, a sister. But not a romantic love.

You know, can’t 2 guys (or 2 girls or a boy and girl) be friends, good friends, without there being it being romantic. I have always perceived Kirk-Spock and McCoy has a band of brothers. In this case, any attempt to make it romantic would almost cheapen their relationship, at least in my eyes.

I know the LGBT community wants more representation in Star Trek. I get that, but I don’t think you’ll find it with Kirk and Spock. That’s too much like being in love with a sibling or a parent.

Re; S/U, it really doesn’t matter to me personally. However, I think there is an appropriate time and place for everything. Arguing in the shuttle on the way to a dangerous mission was not the appropriate time. I know this was put in to lighten things up, but perhaps in the next movie something should happen that they need to be told that the Bridge, or while on an away mission, are not appropriate times to have that discussion by Kirk. Somehow Kira and Odo, Dax and Worf, Paris and Torres, and Riker and Troi were able to keep it professional while on duty (not to say there wasn’t a little flirting here and there).

Maybe in the next film have a scene where maybe they start to argue and Kirk tells them, not unkindly, that now is not the time and to keep their heads in the mission at hand. He doesn’t have to be a jerk about it, but just needs to remind them of their duty.

966. Damian - May 24, 2013

Currently I rank STID among the top 4.

I have:
TMP (always will be on top for me–TMP made me a Trekkie so it always will be special).
TWOK (Meyer did a great job with a limited budget–it did not look at all like a low budget film)
First Contact (the Borg–and Dominion were some of Star Treks best villains)
STID
TUC (loved the investigation and conspiracy storylines)
TVH (saw it just after becoming a Trekkie)
TSFS (sometimes changes places with TVH on different viewings)
Nemesis (I thought this was a good Star Trek film–great score, special effects and some good character moments–and this and First Contact were the only 2 TNG films that didn’t feel like it could have been an episode–it felt like a movie).
ST (2009)–Actually tied with Nemesis for me–great story, not as fond of the production design here (much improved on STID) and too many lens flares and shaky camera–gave me a sour headache
Generations (Nexus idea good, ok with Kirk’s death, but not the method of his death–death on the Enterprise-B was much more appropriate for Kirk).
Insurrection (missed Dominion War movie–would have been fine as an episode–still, great music score and some of the most beautiful photography done in a Star Trek movie).
TFF (my lowest Star Trek movie, still loved it for the great character moments between Kirk-Spock-McCoy, and despite some problems with Sybok being Spock’s half brother, Luckinbill was very entertaining in the role).

967. Danpaine - May 24, 2013

…and while we’re at it, this has been bothering me since my second viewing of the film…

….can someone tell me why SO many people were crying/weeping in STID? Kirk, Harrison, Spock, Uhura, etc, etc, over and over. Seriously?

So I guess everyone in the altered timeline is a candy a*s?

“In the 23rd Century after Nero, everyone became an emotional train wreck.”

968. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2013

@964 Mel,
“Just what I am thinking about NuSpock. He showed emotions very openly all the time in the last two movies.”

You know, I’m sure this has been discussed, but it just occurred to me …

We’re seeing Kirk 5-10 years before we ever did in TOS, after a very different childhood, theoretically explaining much of his behavior in these films.

Spock on the other hand, we have already seen in the Prime universe at about the same age we are introduced to him here, in the Cage. And unless there were substantially different influences once he left Vulcan and enlisted in Starfleet (which there could have been), he should behave similarly to how we see him behave in The Cage. However, I don’t think you can just blow up Vulcan and kill his mother without it affecting him somehow.

But now what? Spock and Kirk have gone through life and death together, so is Spock going to try to get himself back together again, or is he going to just be another human that happens to have some Vulcan blood going forward? I mean, it’s going to be hard to change him back without making it a story point without risking confusion among the general audiences who have come to know this Spock.

969. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

Well, mixed news for Star Trek on Thursday:

Good: It only dropped 5% from Wednesday.

Bad: It dropped 56% from last thursday, which was already a not fantastic opening Thursday.

We may need to wait until Saturday to get a complete feel of how much it fell this weekend since both Thursday and Friday were kinda low last weekend with more normal looking Saturday and Sunday. Though if it’s dropping 60% already on Thursday and Friday, that’s not necessarily good…

970. Karen - May 24, 2013

@948 S/U Admirer

I think all your thoughts are great. Trouble is, sigh, they’re all perfect for an arc-based tv series and not a film franchise. And there’s the heart of the problem. Trek’s home has traditionally been tv, and the first round of movies grew out of the tv series, which each had whole seasons’ worth of character and action to play with. Now they’re trying to replicate all that time and space to do stuff in 4 hours? It just can’t work. And I don’t see a solution.

971. govna - May 24, 2013

@964 Mel

Admiral Pike…in the film….also pointed out that the ENTIRE Nibiru mission was a violation of the Prime Directive.

As to why Spock went along with the idea….who knows.

972. Mel - May 24, 2013

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-star-trek-into-darkness/

It is also interesting what they say starting at about 27:55. They call the characters cartoonish, who do in every movie the same thing:

- Kirk is a hothead, who learns to lead.
- Spock is an emotionless guy, who learns to be emotional at the right time.
- Uhura loves Spock.
- Scotty is wacky.
- Bones is there. Bones says his corny lines. He is grumpy.

And because they are so cartoonish they say, that every movie will be about the same thing. That the crew are a family and Kirk and Spock are best friends. And then this exchange follows:

A: And why are Kirk and Spock best friends anyway?
B: I don’t know.
C: Because the general audience has heard of Kirk and Spock.
A: In these movies, if the entire legacy and canon of Star Trek didn’t exist and just these two movies existed, Kirk would hate Spock. And Uhura would have no reason to fall in love with Spock. Spock is a big asshole in this movie and Kurt is a hothead college jock guy, who runs around screaming. And everyone’s yelling and those two would not be best friends. There is no reason for them. Kirk is dying and Spock would just go ok. But instead of it he is crying and screaming.
C: My two biggest thoughts of this movie was: 1. Why do Kirk and Spock like each other? and 2. Why is Kirk not being kick out of Starfleet yet?

Personally I don’t mind it, that they are a little cartoonish. I think a large reason for this is, that there is simply not enough time to give every character much depth.

But I agree that they could have build the Kirk and Spock friendship much better. I especially wonder, why Kirk likes Spock so much. After all Spock did two times his best to end Kirk’s Starfleet career. After the Kobayashi Maru test he did his best to counter Kirk’s arguments, so that he gets thrown out of the academy. Then he reported Kirk after the Niburu incident, although Kirk just saved his life. And Kirk could have also died on Delta Vega. Just that Spock threw Kirk from the ship made Kirk already very angry. But Kirk just forgave him everything in a fast time. And not only that, he seems to consider Spock as a great friend and couldn’t wait to make Spock his first officer at once again.

973. KHAAAN the weasel - May 24, 2013

@955:
Yeah, I have been waiting for that the whole week to be sincere!

They did get some things wrong actually, but darn you, Mike Stoklasa and Jay Bauman (plus Rich Evans) for pointing out even MORE plotholes than those I already got all worked up about!

974. Mel - May 24, 2013

@ 971. govna – May 24, 2013

“Admiral Pike…in the film….also pointed out that the ENTIRE Nibiru mission was a violation of the Prime Directive.

As to why Spock went along with the idea….who knows.”

Yes, Spock’s reaction is kind of strange. He cites the prime directive while in the volcano and Kirk and McCoy have a talk about that directive, like it is a hard decision between breaking it or not. It is like all three characters aren’t aware at all, that stopping the volcano and rescuing the whole alien race is a much bigger intervention and break of the prime directive than letting a few natives see a starship.

975. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

Star Trek review:

http://blip.tv/redlettermedia/half-in-the-bag-episode-53-star-trek-into-darkness-6592545

In short, good cast to some degree and a dumb script.

976. MelyBelle44 - May 24, 2013

@965

Damian, you are correct…however, in real life, not everything happens at “appropriate” moments. Sometimes you take what you can get. Also, much like ST09, they are going into this thing very much realizing that there is a distinct likelihood that they could die. And yes, in any movie, when characters are faced with a do or die situation, they hash things out. When their lives are on the line, that is the moment that discussions are had. That’s nothing new. Now, think about it this way…..if Uhura had been killed by the Klingon, and the last moments Spock had with her were spent angry at each other….can you even imagine angsty Spock? They needed to clear the air before one or the other or both risked their lives.

I think back to the criticism over the Turbolift scene. Even though the scene itself was barely a minute long, the masses were up in arms, “There’s no time for that, there’s a war going on here, guys” complaining that the fact that they took 1 freaking minute out of the whole entire movie for that scene was pointless. So, in this version, they take care of things while in the course of doing their jobs. And now you are saying, “There was a better time and place for that.” And yet, had they created some separate scene for them to work things out, there would be a million more people saying, “Waaah waaah they took away a Bones scene, or waaah waaah, they broke away from action so that Spock and Uhura could have a moment together.”

Furthermore, they were just barely lifting off. How did their conversation get in the way of doing their jobs? It didn’t.

977. chetc - May 24, 2013

Saw this twice, and was still disappointed.

I want to see an original story with this crew, NOT an homage or a bunch of recycled ideas.

That’s my problem with STID in a nutshell.

978. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2013

@971. govna,
“Admiral Pike…in the film….also pointed out that the ENTIRE Nibiru mission was a violation of the Prime Directive.”

And of course the most interesting part is that Admiral Pike sent them to Nibiru in the first place, on an ‘humanitarian’ mission, per the Countdown comic.

979. MelyBelle44 - May 24, 2013

@973

Well, what you need to understand is that Spock had watched his home world get wiped out less than a year ago. So, I think inside of him, inside of his human half, there was a deep seeded emotional need to save the planet, save the species, the way he couldn’t with Vulcan. I think because of that, he justified that part of violating the Prime Directive. He couldn’t just let them die. He had to do something.

But the second part of the Prime Directive, he ruled with his logical half, as he could not find a moral reason to break the part that states that they can’t be seen.

980. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 977. Curious Cadet – May 24, 2013

“@971. govna,
“Admiral Pike…in the film….also pointed out that the ENTIRE Nibiru mission was a violation of the Prime Directive.”

And of course the most interesting part is that Admiral Pike sent them to Nibiru in the first place, on an ‘humanitarian’ mission, per the Countdown comic.”

Nothing make much sense in this movie.

981. Gary 8.5 - May 24, 2013

969. That was the day Hangover III opened .
When we look at the box office for STID this weekend.
Lets also consider Overseas Totals .
I have a feeling that they will still be pretty good .

982. Starbase Britain - May 24, 2013

Hello everyone,

I have just been to see this movie. I enjoyed it very much and i liked it better than the 2009 movie.

I do need some help though. Im a fan of TOS and im bewildered by this bloke calling himself Khan. How can he be Khan Noonian Sing when he is clearly visably British with an English accent? Im confused?

I lost the plot there. I am surprised they went down this road. I think cumberbatch made an excellent villain but i think they should have steered away from the Khan revisit.

Greg
United Kingdom

.

983. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@#965Damian

” Somehow Kira and Odo, Dax and Worf, Paris and Torres, and Riker and Troi were able to keep it professional while on duty (not to say there wasn’t a little flirting here and there).

Maybe in the next film have a scene where maybe they start to argue and Kirk tells them, not unkindly, that now is not the time and to keep their heads in the mission at hand. He doesn’t have to be a jerk about it, but just needs to remind them of their duty.”

Here’s the thing, though. Spock and Uhura are the most like Odo and Kira out of all of the couples you listed. And here’s the kicker, they should be even less likely to have an argument in front of people than those 2. Vulcans are very private people, and I think Uhura is a private person too. The talk she had with Kirk in the turbolift fit because all she let him know was that he wasn’t the main problem. That fits. In ST09 when Spock said “I have nothing to say regarding the matter” to Kirk’s inquiry about him and Uhura, that fit. That shuttle ride quarrel? It fit the plot, but not the characters. And again, Uhura’s reasons for being “upset” don’t make sense because she already knows he can feel and they should be bonded by now, which is an emotional and telepathic connection between mates.

Frankly, I don’t think it makes sense for them to “argue” as much as it does for them to have a logical discussion like 2 rational adults. I love the fact that this Spock is a little more in tune with his emotions, but he is still a Vulcan. It’s how he was raised mainly. I think he was handled perfectly in the last film considering what he went through, but this film…
If they want to show the fact that he has emotions, keep him cool on the outside and then perhaps show a little of that emotion behind closed doors with Uhura at the end of the day, or have Uhura notice some give-away that only she would recognize. They could also display it through his bonding to Uhura, but that shouldn’t be leaned on too much because it could get tired easily. Subtle hints of affection are fine, but that shouldn’t be all there is in the film.

Spock is the one who should be mentioning how to behave to Kirk, and not the other way around. This isn’t saying anything negative about Kirk, just that Spock is the most professional person on the ship, or he should be. His high standards and Vulcan nature require it, and I think Uhura is the same way. So again, while that “lover’s quarrel” served its purpose, it was completely out of character for both of them to me. I still liked Kirk standing up for Uhura, though. So, there is that.

—-

@#970 Karen

Ideally (for me), this movie would have been the one where they focused more on building relationships and finding their footing as a crew with overcoming some challenge that solidifies that. The last movie got them together, but this one would have spent some time on getting the team to hit the right beats with each other. That could have been touching and that could have been fun. So, to me, that would have taken care of the forging relationships part of my post for each character. Then, the 3rd film would have been more ready-set-go when they start their 5 year mission. That would have allowed us to see more action and adventure with a solidified, stable, crew. I think it could have worked, but that’s just me.

As it stands, STID is an action film that is mainly about retelling the same Kirk story from the last film and bringing in 2 villains and another crew member that took up the rest of the story, with lots and lots of action included. So, if there’s only going to be one more movie, maybe bringing in all I asked for would be kind of hard. I don’t know. They fast forwarded a year at the end of this movie, so maybe next movie covers some of what happened in that interim (through those famous LOST-like flashback sequences) over the course of the movie as Kirk and crew “seek out new life and new civilizations.” Hey, it’s an idea.

984. Mel - May 24, 2013

@ 977

I had forgotten that line from the comics. That makes everything even more absurd.

There are just so many plot holes in this movie, often because they use technology in a wrong way.

It made no sense to put the Enterprise in the ocean on Niburu. The Niburus wouldn’t have seen the Enterprise in space. That cold fusion bomb isn’t really cold. And they couldn’t beam it and Spock down into the volcano, because of interferences, but had not problem to beam Spock up.

Those torpedos/cryo capsules, which can somehow be shot across the galaxy despite not having any fuel. Even normal torpedos shouldn’t fly so long. And why the hell should Kirk shot exactly 72 to Kronos to begin with? Why not 20 or 50 or 70? Didn’t he find that uneven number strange? And aren’t 72 real torpedos overkill for just one man? Why are Kirk, Spock and Uhura using a shuttle to get to Kronos? Why aren’t they just beaming there like Khan? That would be much faster and the Klingons wouldn’t have noticed their ship.

And thanks to Khan’s blood McCoy could create a serum, which can even reanimate dead alien animals. It should heal practically everything short of severe wounds.

It is like they imagined scenes they wanted in the movie and then bent technology and common sense to connect those scenes.

985. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@#978 Mely,

That’s exactly how I saw it, but I also think that this should have been touched on in the film. They advertised this film as one where you “don’t have to see the ’09 movie to get this one,” Well, if I hadn’t seen the ’09 movie, but I had a vague understanding of the Prime Directive from those, say, TNG episodes I caught every once in a while, then it would not have made any sense.

Did they even explain what the Prime Directive was to the general audience within the film? I can’t remember. I think they kind of talked about it like people already knew. If I’d never seen Star Trek, that would have me scratching my head wondering if I had missed something.

986. Mel - May 24, 2013

@ 981. Gary 8.5

Only German numbers:

1. weekend: 446.915 viewers
2. weekend: 246.776 viewers

Into Darkness was watched by 905.758 people until the last Sunday.
Star Trek 2009 had in the same time frame 760.137 viewers.

Quite a big drop but Into Darkness is currently doing better than ST 2009 in Germany. Thanks to 3D ticket prizes and inflation, money wise the increase will look even more impressive than the increase in viewers.

987. USSEXETER - May 24, 2013

I guess I disagree with JJ and company that STID is a stand alone film. I saw a mainstream comments section discussing the film and the New Vulcan call to prime Spock was thought to be him calling Sarek. Just what I read someplace else.

988. geodesic17 - May 24, 2013

Now that Pike is dead, Kirk should report to a female admiral.

989. Karen - May 24, 2013

@982 S/U Admirer

Yeah, there’s an issue I find a bit sticky – the time lapse between the films. At no time on film did they state how much time had passed since Kirk got the Enterprise. If that’s info they explained in the comics well that’s lovely for the people who read the comics — but it’s utterly ludicrous to assume that anyone seeing the film has read them. So that was very very muddy. And it would have been such an easy fix. Kirk and Pike going at it, and Kirk says — In the x # of months I’ve been Captain how many people have I lost? None. And there you have it. Seamless continuity. Sheesh.

Re: all the issues with when/where Spock and Uhura aired their differences? I think we’re looking at the impossible juxtaposition of internal story events vs external narrative construction. Bottom line? The writers simply did not have time to address certain story beats in a singular fashion, so to keep things moving and maximise the narrative space available, they doubled up on stuff. Hence the do you want to die conversation on the ship to Kronos. Ideally, possibly even realistically, that conversation would have taken place in private. But the demands of the narrative meant it was in public. But doing it that way also allowed the writers to explore one of the themes of the film, which is about people learning to listen to each other and grow as a result. Just as Kirk slowed down long enough to listen to Spock (and Scotty) about the rightness of Marcus’s orders to kill Harrison out of hand, so does Spock have a chance to hear Kirk on the matter of his issue with him. Both he an Uhura are frustrated with him. Spock hears that, and finally opens up. That moment was built into the public nature of the conversation.

I think this is one of the big challenges we’re all facing, trying to reconcile the internal reality of the story with the external artificiality of the storytelling process.

990. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@988Karen “The writers simply did not have time to address certain story beats in a singular fashion, so to keep things moving and maximise the narrative space available, they doubled up on stuff.”

Yeah, it’s like I mentioned. The doubling up fit the plot, but not the characters. And from what I’ve read, a lot of people seem to think there was too much going on in the film anyway. So, maybe cutting back a bit could have helped?

I still think there was a way to tell a decent story and still have people learning to listen to each other, but I don’t think that should have Spock and Uhura’s problem. Rather, their time (as a couple) should have been spent working through whatever remnants of PTSD he was still struggling to overcome.

Maybe he had to leave Starfleet for a while because he thought he was okay, but he wasn’t, so now he needs some additional help or has some additional work to do on himself. That would allowed for more fleshing out of both characters without presenting them out of character. Current events would have also played into that, so there would have been a story tie-in for added relevance. I don’t know; it’s just a thought.

991. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

From the bbs, Boborci sharing his thoughts with StarTrek website:

“Star Trek into Darkness Co-writer Roberto Orci explained why a certain villain was included in the film.

According to Orci, the villain was a result of wanting to relate to Star Trek history. Spoilers behind the cut for those who haven’t yet seen the film.

“[Damon Lindelof] argued for Khan from the beginning and I argued against it,” said Orci. “The compromise that we came to was, let us devise a story that is not reliant on any history of Star Trek. So, what’s the story? Well, we have a story where our crew is who they are and they’re coming together as a family. Then, suddenly, this villain arrives and his motivations are based on what happens in the movie. They’re not based on history. They’re not based on Star Trek. They’re not based on anything that came before. They’re based on his used by a corrupted system of power that held the things he held dear against him and tried to manipulate him. That story stands alone with or without Star Trek history. That’s how we approached it, and God bless Damon for going down that road.”

However, Lindelof was persistent when it came to wanting Khan. “So, once we had that, that’s when Damon came back and reared his ugly head and said, ‘OK, now that we have that, is there any reason why we cannot bring Star Trek history into this?’ And he was right,” said Orci. “So we ended up sort of reverse engineering it. We started with, ‘What’s a good movie? What’s a good villain? What’s a good motivation? We cannot rely on what’s happened before. Now that we have that, can we tailor this villain into something that relates to Star Trek history?’ And that’s what we did. So, step one was ‘Don’t rely on Star Trek.’ Then, step two was ‘Rely on Star Trek.’”

http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-orci-opens-up-about-star-trek-into-darkness-part-1

Oookay, is my initial response. Hmmm…

992. Karen - May 24, 2013

@989 S/U Admirer

Yeah, I totally get what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. This is one of those instances where what hits a button for you doesn’t for me. I have no problem at all with that scene. In fact I really really love that scene. And this is why writing for a public property franchise is such a thankless task — no two fans see the same story, so pleasing everyone is impossible. And when you add to the mix the fact that the Trek team is trying to write for two different audiences – fans and casual film goers? It’s a wonder they’re not all in straitjackets right now.

Or maybe they are! *g*

993. Jemini - May 24, 2013

so It’s Damon Lindelof’s fault?
I knew it LOL

this is for those who are saying that Spock/Uhura is only JJ&Orci&co’s idea and there are no hints TOS writers had planned to develop it too but never could because the time didn’t allow it:

“I decided then from the character that I read [Spock] that I wanted to be very much like that character but in a feminine way. And Gene [Roddenberry] said, and I was sharing this with George [Takei] the other day, when I told him that I thought of Spock as my mentor. Because if you remember Uhura was the only one he was able to teach the Vulcan lyre too and he sang and spooffed on Spock. Now, you could have never had a love scene in 63 between Uhura and Spock but there were several hints and Gene [Roddenberry] was one in the kind of beginning to follow that and he wanted to do episodes if we had gone past the third year

sincerely, Nichelle Nichols (aka original Uhura)

bye.

994. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

Sorry to keep posting, but does anyone have a link to that Zoe interview he was talking about?

At least he didn’t agree with her. Thank goodness for that. I think, understanding these 2 characters personalities, a break up doesn’t make sense.

In the TOS timeline, they both chose different paths, so getting together wouldn’t have made sense there, but this is not the TOS timeline and they are not exact copies of those characters. That becomes even more true when Khan’s entire ethnicity has been changed. Obviously something different happened for that to be the case.

995. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

S/U Admirer – I had forgotten about the post contained in the link you posted.

However, it was your entire post #884 and this, in particular, made me realize that you were indeed the same person I had run into previously on this site –

“If you (Trekkiegal63) join, you can send me a PM and we can talk. You are correct in your assumption that trying to mend fences is futile. I tried too.”

You have also done this before, with another poster. In fact, you told the other poster (NCM – I think) to ignore me etc and not accept anything I said, even though my grievance was with her, not you. Fortunately, she chose to be her own person and responded to me, thereby fixing fences.

You accused me of online stalking which I found rude and offensive and yes, you admit you criticised my “rose pinenut” name – made fun of it. No, you really should not have said anything, given your own propensity to be inordinately preoccupied with Quinto/Spock and the Spock/Uhura relationship. What amused me was that you waffled on about how YOU were more interested in Quinto as an actor, his career than apparently I was about Chris Pine as an actor with a career, yet you did not even know, at the time, that Quinto had produced and starred in a movie called Margin Call. I told you!

You need to stop being a nasty little so-n-so.

It is also interesting to note here how people will scoff at someone who they think plays the “victim card”, thus adding to what already may be genuine victimization.

Believe me, Phil and Trekkiegal – Your arguments get real tired as well.

996. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@Karen

It’s not entirely thankless. I’ve read a few thanks here and there on this website in the past week. I probably scrolled past more. So, it’s good that you liked it. It’s not that I didn’t like the scene. I’ve said that it worked out okay, but it worked out okay for the plot. It just didn’t seem to fit the S/U characters to me. That is all.

I think maybe they should stop thinking about writing for “2 groups of fans,” and just focus on telling a good story that fits these characters where they are now. It might be worth a try…

997. Li'l Shat - May 24, 2013

@990

I knew it was Lindelof. I just knew it.

998. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@Jemini

Thank you. :-)

999. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@990.

Damon Lindelof is like kryptonite to any script that he works on. Every movie that he touch suffer from major plot holes or lack of logic.

1000. Disinvited - May 24, 2013

#996. Li’l Shat – May 24, 2013

Yeah, just sort of wedged Khan right in there, didn’t he?

1001. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@998 Ahmed

Do we know if he’s working on the next movie? For the record, I have nothing against him personally.

1002. Karen - May 24, 2013

@992 Jemini

Isn’t everything Mr Lindelof’s fault? I mean, I sprained my ankle once and I just know he had something to do with it …

Interesting quote. Where’s that from? I’d love to read the whole article.

@993 S/U Admirer

As much as I think Pine is a rock star in the role, I still get a jolt every time I see his bright blue eyes. Because, y’know, weren’t they supposed to be hazel???? *g*

Which isn’t to trivialise the issues raised over casting BC as Khan. My only issue there, though, is the fact that Montalban was Spanish, which is classed as White European, and he wore makeup to darken him as Khan. So … yeah. There doesn’t seem to be any way to rationally address that hot potato.

And while I hear what you’re saying about just writing a good story, the realities of international box office reach mean that in this game, there’s no such thing as just writing a good story. Because there are more agendas in play than a year’s worth of committee meetings at the UN.

1003. Gary 8.5 - May 24, 2013

I have seen Orci say in other interviews , they wanted to solidify the story first , then see if it worked for the Trek universe.
That is basically what he is saying in the quoted interview and I dont see a problem with it .

1004. Winkie - May 24, 2013

@990

*cough* Prometheus

Do I need to say any more?

1005. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2013

@987. geodesic17 – May 24, 2013
“Now that Pike is dead, Kirk should report to a female admiral.”

YES!!

Bring on Helen Mirren. Alternately I would take Sigourney Weaver. Dame Judy Denche would be great, but you know … Bond.

1006. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@Karen

Oh, my main concern is always with the team and S/U. So, I let other people focus more on the villains. I think BC did a good job for the role he was hired to play. That’s all any actor can do.

Yes, they are a very bright blue. Let’s also remember that his hair is blondish this time and not so auburn. ;-)

1007. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 1000. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 24, 2013

“@998 Ahmed

Do we know if he’s working on the next movie?”

I don’t know but he was talking to the press about his “ideas” for the 3rd movie. I hope Paramount will keep him as far as possible from Star Trek.

1008. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@Karen

“And while I hear what you’re saying about just writing a good story, the realities of international box office reach mean that in this game, there’s no such thing as just writing a good story. Because there are more agendas in play than a year’s worth of committee meetings at the UN.”

Well, I said it was worth a try. I can’t say they’d be allowed to do it. Hopefully they are.

1009. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

#819 – Thank you.

Everyone seems so negatively obsessed with sex/sexuality, sexism and “sexual objectification” that they ignored the more horrific crimes exacted by humans upon others.

I don’t intend to, what it seems to many people, stand against the prevailing wind. I guess that it is for me often times and it can be quite frustrating and lonely.

Let the scoffing begin…

1010. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

Damn – Rewrite –

I don’t intend, what it seems to many people, to stand against the prevailing wind. I guess that is how it is for me often times and it can be quite frustrating and lonely.

1011. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@1006 Ahmed

Thank you. Now I’ll have to look that up.

1012. Karen - May 24, 2013

@1007 S/U Admirer

Let the finger crossing begin … *g*

Because I really am with you on this one.

1013. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

Helen Mirren or Judi Dench would make great Starfleet admirals.

Do it!

1014. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 1003. Winkie – May 24, 2013

“*cough* Prometheus

Do I need to say any more?”

You can now add “Star Trek Into Darkness” to the list !

1015. Karen - May 24, 2013

@1008 Keachick

The thing is, at least as I understand it, that it’s the objectification of women and the denial of their autonomy/power/agency that directly feeds into and helps create the current existing culture of violence against women. It normalises the attitude that says women have one function, which is to be sexually available to men regardless of what they want. At the far end of that causal chain is the regular raping of gay women in places like South Africa, in the belief that they will magically be turned straight.

I hear what you’re saying about the glorification of violence in film, and the damage that can do. But I have to say, I don’t think that’s the case in these Trek films. If you want to talk about the sexual fetishisation of violence in film, take a look at Zak Snyder’s The Watchmen. Ewwwww.

I thought Khan’s actions in this film, his crushing of Marcus’s skull with his bare hands, and his deliberate smashing of Carol’s knee, were totally valid story choices. They were horrible. Horrific even. But they served the narrative. They illuminated him. Up until that point, he was actually a sympathetic villain. He had a pov we could relate to. But then he was just … savage. He was showing us the truth of what he said in the brig. Marcus wanted him for his savagery. Those acts of violence weren’t played for fun or torture poorn or any of those icky things. I don’t believe they’re glorified.

Just my thoughts!

1016. KHAAAN the weasel - May 24, 2013

@990
@992

Oh, I feel a bit bad for Bob Orci now… He got all the flak here, just because he’s the only one of the three who visits the page regularly and the whole mess wasn’t even his fault.

Lindelof, come out and face the wrath of Trekmovie.com ;)

Oh and, since when does this comments section support code? Hmmm, ist it simple BBC? – Have to try this: [b] Let’s see [/b] or is it HTML? whoop whoop or maybe this ?

1017. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

^No, you hit it with the html code. BBC would be something like Vbulletin, if I remember correctly.

1018. Bender Bending Rodriguez - May 24, 2013

Bob Orci – if you can hear above the cacophony of the minority that post here – I saw it again today. IT’S A GREAT MOVIE! Can’t wait to see it yet AGAIN! Well done.

After, I went into a bar down the block from the theater and told people that I had just seen Star Trek and several people said they also loved it. A couple of people even said they couldn’t wait to see it again.

All of you nit-pickers who somehow find this doesn’t live up to your royal standards – kiss my shiny metal ass.

1019. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

Well, Bender, I’m glad you liked it. But, can we please keep asses out of this, especially shiny metal ones?

1020. Aurore - May 24, 2013

“All of you nit-pickers who somehow find this doesn’t live up to your royal standards – kiss my shiny metal ass.”
________

Mmmmmmmm ….So elegant. I like it.

If your shiny metal “thing” did live up to my royal standards….I would kiss it!

:)

P.S. : many of the “nit-pickers” did enjoy the movie…or intend to give it a chance…

1021. Phil - May 24, 2013

@994. Not sure why you are dragging me into your little snipe-fest, you are free to hold whatever opinions you want, regardless of how stupid they are. Just knock off the ‘me against the world’ bulls**t, if everyone disagrees with you that might be a huge clue that your opinion is wrong.

1022. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 1017. Bender Bending Rodriguez – May 24, 2013

“Bob Orci – if you can hear above the cacophony of the minority that post here – I saw it again today. IT’S A GREAT MOVIE! Can’t wait to see it yet AGAIN! Well done.
………………………………………..
All of you nit-pickers who somehow find this doesn’t live up to your royal standards – kiss my shiny metal ass.”

Well, Bob Orci is welcome to have fans like you, after all it is telling that the movie was liked by the like of you!

For the record, I’m not implying that everyone who liked STID is like our friend here, but seem there are lot of his kind these days.

1023. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

@ Anthony Pascale –

When are you going to do a discussion thread on the level of violence and brutality shown in Star Trek Into Darkness and whether or not some of it could be definitely be put into the “gratuitous” section?

I can think of a few…

1024. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

Phil – I can always count on you…:(

1025. Other Guy - May 24, 2013

I have to comment on the Star Trek Jersey Shore thoughts fround in all most every post here.

Was’nt this movie’s core plot about the leader of UFP causing a false flag operation against Earthlings?

Did’nt the writers say that this Trek is supposed to be an allegory about America’s 9/11?

How on earth can most of these posts be about a brief shot of Alice in her underwear and its effect on women, when in fact the damned movie was about terrorism being designed and enacted by the country’s leader?

I feel personally insulted that the whole production is getting a pass on basically saying that it was Bush that started all these wars based on a false flag 9/11 event.

And there is no discusion about that?

I guess it’s all right because they put a little note at the end of Trek that said we appreciate all your sons dying, so that we could push our liberal storyline.

9/11 was a flase flag is an idea that has been demonized in the media and acceppted by the masses as a foolish belief. But with this Trek being so wrapped sexy nonsense and fast-paced violence, most will just never rise to conisider this radical message.

This seems to be the core idea that these production want us to accept, and I would really like to see a discussion about it.

1026. MelyBelle44 - May 24, 2013

Other Guy-

While I would love to move this thread into a different direction, unfortunately….I just don’t have that much anger about it. If that was truly their point to the movie, then that’s a shame.

That said, as a lay person watching the movie….I never once thought to myself that it was an obvious allusion to GWB or 9/11….so because I don’t think there was any obvious connection there, I just don’t feel a great deal of outrage about it.

1027. Karen - May 24, 2013

@1023 Other Guy

I’m not sure what you mean, insofar as are you on board with the idea that one of the film’s themes is about the govt. of the day acting illegally in the guise of national security?

I mean, I think that’s something they’re talking about in the film, and they’re quite clearly saying that it’s a very bad idea. And that, to me, is such an obviously valid point that — there’s no need to debate it? Whereas other elements of the film are more controversial and are therefore being debated.

But by all means, explore the theme some more and I’m sure a bunch of us will join in the conversation.

1028. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@1023. Other Guy

An interesting take on the movie, however, I didn’t see it that way. Maybe because I didn’t like how the movie was handling Khan story.

False flag operations did occurred before or was in the planning stage like Operation Northwoods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Many people believed that 9/11 was a false flag because they couldn’t imagine how people who live in caves in Afghanistan can execute a complex operation like 9/11.

Also people didn’t trust Bush & the NeoCons who seem hell-bent on going to war everywhere.

In any case, I didn’t get that vibe from the movie.

1029. Disinvited From The Party - May 24, 2013

#1024. MelyBelle44 – May 24, 2013

Well, anger or no, the thread is about due for a reset so you may get your wish without having to lift a finger.

1030. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2013

@1023. Other Guy,
“I feel personally insulted that the whole production is getting a pass on basically saying that it was Bush that started all these wars based on a false flag 9/11 event.”

I think you are entirely inferring that.

It has been discussed here, and seems much more obvious an indictment against Obama and his drone policy.

I’m guessing you haven’t read the last 4000+ posts since this movie came out and this discussion began, and just dropped in today to spread your particular message.

1031. Matt Wright - May 24, 2013

@ 1004 — Reporting to a woman admiral would be awesome, especially when you consider the new universe Kirk is quite a womanizer, it would be nice to put him in his place a bit.
I love Dame Judy Dench from the 007 movies, in her first appearance (Goldeneye) I love that she calls Bond out. She’s getting too old, and cannot see very well any more sadly, and as you said, she’s already been in that kind of role in another iconic franchise, so I think she’s out.

But I like Helen Mirren, or heck I also maybe see Maggie Smith. Trying to think who else would make a great higher-up like that…

1032. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - May 24, 2013

No female Admirals, because we don’t need ANY Admirals. If the Enterprise is out on a 5 year mission, they won’t be visiting any big brass anyway. A cameo on the viewscreen is fine. 30 second message, ala Real Spock in STID.

I realize some new fans seem to like the Spock/Uhura thing. If they buy enough tickets to get another sequel made, fine. I find the whole storyline annoying, and unSpock like. My opinion.

I also didn’t like the Adm. Marcus storyline. Steroetypical crazy military guy. Yawn. Highly offensive and a lazy trope, as a veteran military officer myself. A militarized StarFleet is supposed to be some big outrage? Admirals, Captains, torpedoes? Hello? This is the bland garbage that TNG specialized in. Even Scotty got in a line about being “explorers” and made a face about it.

1033. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@1030

“unSpock like” how? This Spock was established in the 2009 movie. So, it’s very this Spock. Now, if we were talking about TOS, then not so much.

1034. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 1030. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. – May 24, 2013

“I realize some new fans seem to like the Spock/Uhura thing. If they buy enough tickets to get another sequel made, fine. I find the whole storyline annoying, and unSpock like. My opinion”

I second that. I really dislike the whole Spock/Uhura relationship. It take too much screen time from other crew members like Bones & Sulu. And I find the new Uhura super irritating.

As for a militarized Starfleet, I think that Starfleet should be basically about exploring the universe & meeting new civilizations… etc.; however, they also need to have superior defence & offensive capabilities to fight against known & unknown enemies of the Federation.

1035. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

Phil – “if everyone disagrees with you that might be a huge clue that your opinion is wrong.”

Not sure that everybody does disagree with me. Anyway, that’s beside the point – do you see what you have just done here?

While we are talking about “clues” – There was a guy in England called William Wilberforce who was practically the only one to have the opinion that slavery was wrong. He was denounced, shouted down, sneered at. Over time, other people started understanding what he was saying and why.

Now I do not profess to be any kind of William Wilberforce, but to say that because nobody agrees with a person’s opinion does not necessarily mean that their opinions are any more wrong than the majority is more right. Sometimes people can hold opposing opinions to what is most prevalent, agreed upon and can be proved, over time, more right than wrong.

Would anyone disagree with the stance that William Wilberforce took in regard to the horrific immorality of slavery?

“Not sure why you are dragging me into your little snipe-fest”
I think you did that all by yourself, Phil – ref. #943

“@909…You just figured that out?? :-)
I kid, of course.”

Hence my response later.

1036. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

@#1032 Ahmed

Really? To me the retelling of the same Kirk story took center stage in this film, and then the 2 villains plus an intro to another crew mate took the rest. There wasn’t enough S/U. Not at all to me. And Uhura, in my view, just wasn’t completely in character for a couple of scenes, but the rest of it was fine. Spock also had some issues this time around to me. I do like what I’ve seen of Nichelle Nichols’ Uhura too, and probably a little better over all, but I like this one as well.

1037. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

Addition to 1034, not to mention the forced “best friends forever in about a day” bromance that Kirk/Spock had. That took a nice chunk of time too.

1038. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

Oh, now slavery is dragged in…

1039. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

#1014 – Thank you, Karen.

I agree with your explanation of how the horrible violence shown in the scene where Carol Marcus was stomped on by Khan and then watched her father being murdered the way he was (I think he followed that up with beating Kirk up – again) probably should not be deemed gratuitous. It did show just how despotic, cruel and sadistic this Khan character could be once he got the upper hand. At this point, no one could be left in any doubt as to the real threat Khan was.

On the other topic though, the real (sexual)violence perpetrated against women seem to occur within societies which do not have or allow for in their media, film etc, the kind of gratuitous pictures of women in underwear which so many people here are railing against. Pournography, ie showing women who even have their shoulders uncovered, is restricted. Their idea of what constitutes pournography is much restrictive/repressive than notions we have in our countries – English speaking and European.

This is what seems to get overlooked.

Of course, pournography, including hardcore/*snuff pourn, does get smuggled into many of these countries to be ogled by the men…
* Snuff pourn is where the sexual violence, murder, bestiality etc are not simulated. It is all real.
(I found this out while working for NZ Customs a number of years ago and Officers were confiscating such obscene material coming into this country on mislabeled videotapes etc. A work colleague had decided to randomly watch a tape, as these officers do as part of their job, and I could see that he was still visibly upset at what he saw…I had to type basic details of what occurred in the film. Luckily, I cannot remember that much. Sometimes not being able remember things can be a good thing.)

Please do not think that I am being flippant or dismissive about these issues. Believe me, I am and never have been.

1040. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

shit – meant to write…”I am NOT and never have been”.

S/U Admirer – about slavery being dragged in – what? you gotta a problem with that?…UGH!

1041. Phil - May 24, 2013

@1033. Not sure what Mr. Wilberforce has to do with your defense of sexism, but whatever…..

1042. Digital1 - May 24, 2013

Just came back from my second viewing. Still think it’s one of the best Star Trek movies there has been. Anyway, went to the Alamo Drafthouse in Winchester, VA… all four of the evening showings of STID were sold out :-)

1043. Li'l Shat - May 24, 2013

Red Letter Media has their 45 minute video review of Star Trek Into Darkness up now.

BIG SPOILER ALERT!

DON’T WANT TO BE SPOILED? STOP LOOKING!

SPOILER: They blame the script.

1044. Dennis Bailey - May 24, 2013

Who are they and why should anyone care?

1045. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

A new interview with Bob on Startrek.com
=====================================
EXCLUSIVE: Orci Opens Up About Star Trek Into Darkness, Part 2

J.J. Abrams is probably going to be too busy with Star Wars to direct a third Star Trek film, but how eager are you to be involved with it?

ORCI: Look, man, my uncle got me into Star Trek. I named the Kelvin, the very ship that Kirk was born on, after my uncle. To me, Star Trek is so important and I love it so much that it is very difficult to imagine other people working on it. Yet, if somebody has a better idea than I do, then they should be the ones handling Star Trek. We’ve always said that we didn’t create Star Trek, that we don’t own Star Trek. It existed before us. I only want to be on Star Trek as long as I’m useful and helpful to what Star Trek is.

The minute that I’m a burden on it, then I should not be here. I want the best idea to win. Hopefully, if this movie works, Paramount will be thinking about a third movie and, if I have the best idea, I should win. If I don’t, someone else should win. That’s how much I love Star Trek. The best idea should win, period.

http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-orci-opens-up-about-star-trek-into-darkness-part-2
=====================================

Totally agree with Bob there, the best idea should win. It doesn’t have to be ONLY Bob & Alex. Paramount can & should bring in other writers if they have better ideas

1046. Jefferies Tuber - May 24, 2013

Just watched STID for the second time in 2D and loved the movie in a way I did not on the first, 3D viewing.

I’ll post other thoughts, but I just want to add that Carol drops her dress in order to put on a male standard science uniform so that she can fit her flight suit over her jersey. Even so, if the black undershirt is standard, then why did she remove her black undershirt?

From what we’ve seen on ENTERPISE, officers should be accustomed to undressing in front of one another. If anything, her demand for privacy is unprofessional… Or a deliberate flirtation. Kirk’s face is like, WTF? There’s nothing about his actions that suggest he’s anything more than confused.

In any event, people who think Star Trek is some bastion of second wave, sex-hating feminism don’t know a darn thing about Gene Roddenberry’s biography.

1047. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

1043 Ahmed – I’m frightened by his admiration of the V campfire scene. I always felt that was one of the most awkward scenes in star trek history lol

1048. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

Also got around to reading the entire novelization. Filled in some missing gaps that didn’t (or couldn’t) make it into the movie, anyway. Oh, and Cupcake bit it – at least in the book. Though he didn’t die on screen so it’s not technically canon.

1049. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 1045. Josh C. – May 24, 2013

“1043 Ahmed – I’m frightened by his admiration of the V campfire scene. I always felt that was one of the most awkward scenes in star trek history lol”

lol, this time I’ve to side with Bob. I love that campfire scene in Star Trek V. It was my favorite scene in the whole movie. Very much like the scene between Kirk & Bones in Kirk apartment in TWOK.

I love these small moments where the characters just relax & talk about trivial stuff or make fun of themselves like real friends do.

1050. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 24, 2013

“ORCI: Look, man, my uncle got me into Star Trek. I named the Kelvin, the very ship that Kirk was born on, after my uncle. To me, Star Trek is so important and I love it so much that it is very difficult to imagine other people working on it. “

I thought in the ST09 commentary, or maybe it was an interview, JJ said that the Kelvin was named after his grandfather who always encouraged him. Do both JJ’s grandfather and Bob’s Uncle have the same name, or am I mistaken somehow? Hmmm.

1051. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

1047 Ahmed -

“It was my favorite scene in the whole movie”

Not that that’s a very high bar to reach for that one lol

1052. dmduncan - May 24, 2013

Best idea should win? I agree—but that might mean giving Damon some other project to work on. After Prometheus, I’m starting to wonder if Lindelof’s influence on Star Trek is mostly pernicious.

I’ll bet he voted NO on the Shatner scene, too.

1053. Devyn - May 24, 2013

@1030-

“I realize some new fans seem to like the Spock/Uhura thing. If they buy enough tickets to get another sequel made, fine. I find the whole storyline annoying, and unSpock like. My opinion.”

Agree 100%. It’s not so distracting that I can’t watch the film, but one of the things I always loved about Spock was the mystery. He was desirable yet unattainable. Then they had to throw in the relationship to win over some new audience members.. I hate the new romance, though it seems to have a small, but pretty loyal, fan base. Overall from the polls and comments I’ve seen from many sites most either dislike the romance or just dont care about it at all. You can tell just by skimming over who will always be here to defend them. I can only hope they end it in the next film, or keep it to the far back. It’s only a subplot anyways and not enough people really care about it to give it more screen time just because the fangirls complain that Spock and Uhura didn’t kiss enough lol

1054. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

Once again the people here delete a post simply because it is refer to a news item by another site !!!

Reposting my question to Josh

@ 1046. Josh C. – May 24, 2013

“Also got around to reading the entire novelization. Filled in some missing gaps that didn’t (or couldn’t) make it into the movie, anyway. ”

Any new stuff about Khan or Section 31 in the novelization ?

“Not that that’s a very high bar to reach for that one lol”

You right about that lol

1055. Rick - May 24, 2013

@992. Jemini

Well thank god it didn’t get that far, because it would have sucked then, too. Even if it did, I highly doubt they would have made them a full blown couple. Probably just Uhura mooning over Spock again and he would look the other way as he always did. Romance doesn’t fit with the character of Spock. No matter if it was Uhura or Chapel or Leila. New Spock isn’t any different, sure some fans went gooey eyed when they saw Spock and Uhura kiss, the rest of us went “WTF” and tried to forget it as soon as possible.

1056. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

1052 Ahmred -

“Any new stuff about Khan or Section 31 in the novelization ?”

Not really. At least not that can’t be pretty readily inferred by the movie (such as the fact that the guy who bombed the archive worked for 31, stuff like that).

I guess one can explain why Khan didn’t IMMEDIATELY start planning escape strategies by the fact that Marcus promised to return his crew if he cooperated, which of course he never intended to do, which Khan caught on to fast enough.

The interplay between Spock and Khan at the end was a bit more extended too, pretty much confirming that Khan was going to take over the Vengeance whether he was stunned or not. Also explained how Spock and McCoy were able to trick Khan into not detecting that the torpedoes (actually, only one) was armed, and contained the stasis tubes.

1057. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@1054. Josh C.

Thanks, guess I will skip the novelization then.

1058. Josh C. - May 24, 2013

1055 Ahmed -

I suppose the most mysterious part was at the end. Apparently Starfleet (or someone) has a facility where they store hundreds of chryotubes of various vintage for whatever reason.

I guess if one thinks about it, it would make sense. There were several episodes where the Enterprise encountered such people (The Neutral Zone in TNG, for example). Surely many of those people were frozen and kept on earth. And the practice probably lasted for a quite a while. What does one do with all of those people?

1059. dmduncan - May 24, 2013

Oh, and the whole S/U thing was better for me this time around. It can’t hit the skids fast enough to suit me, but they made good use of it for Spock to clarify some of his internal states of mind.

Good to see Spock becoming himself again, too. Unemotional. Confused by human behavior. The humor those features bring to his interactions with the people around him is priceless.

What I would like to see for the NEXT film is for Kirk to arrive as a command prodigy. For two films now we’ve gotten them as an evolving team; I want to see Kirk stand out as its greatest single asset by doing something extraordinary.

I want to see the Kirk from The Corbomite Maneuver, from Balance of Terror, from Arena, from The Changeling. I want to see him pull off the impossible.

1060. MelyBelle44 - May 24, 2013

@1053…..good Lord….when are you going to get it to your thick skull? It’s called an alternate reality. Repeat after me. Alternate reality. In this reality, Spock is capable of and desires a relationship with a woman. That woman happens to be Uhura. It could be a toad named Bertha for all I care….the point is, this Spock is not Spock Prime. His life philosophies, desires, and experiences are different. Alternate reality…geez.

Ahmed, come on buddy. I like ya darlin, but please don’t pull the “too much time” line. That’s one of the lamest lines in the book. The first movie featured their relationship for somewhere between 3-5 minutes, depending on which scenes you count. Out of a 2 hour movie. That’s not an unreasonable amount of time. Not at all. This film, is even less than the first one. In fact, in STID, if you count only strictly Spock and Uhura scenes, and not general scenes that may feature a hint or two, you are talking about 90 seconds, tops. 90 seconds is just too much….come on, man!

Judge Judy has a book out called Don’t Pee on my Leg and tell Me it’s Raining. Listen, if you don’t like them as a couple, fine. Most people who don’t have a reason, be it that they don’t think Spock should be with anyone or because they have someone else in mind Spock should be with. But, when people put a coat of paint on it like….oh it’s bad for feminism, or oh, too much time was used for it. or oh zoe saldana should be used better than that….it just feels like a desperate attempt to make your feelings about the relationship more legitimate. Stop trying to come up with excuses that sound good and just tell the truth.

1061. dmduncan - May 24, 2013

And yes, I know Spock lost it in the end. So hopefully that will preempt someone from pointing that out as if I didn’t see the film. But there were many great scenes where this Spock felt like Nimoy’s Spock much more than he ever did in the first film.

1062. Charles Trotter - May 24, 2013

@boborci

As I told you on Twitter, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, although I do take issue with a few things. I felt the second half of the film was a bit predictable and padded-out. I realize this has more to do with the editing than the writing, but I feel the last 45 minutes or so should have been tightened a bit.

I appreciate the big callback scene to TWOK and why you guys did it, although I don’t think it worked 100%. As someone said before, there was a finality to it that shouldn’t have been there. I also think having Spock screaming “KHAAAAAAAN!” was a bit much; it was supposed to be dramatic but it just came off as parody.

Benedict Cumberbatch made a terrific villain, but as Khan, I felt he was lacking a lot of the elegance, arrogance and graciousness for which the character is known. I understand that he has spent a year under Marcus’ thumb, but I still would have liked to see a bit more of Khan’s charisma and self-satisfaction.

For the next film, I would like the focus to be more on science fiction and a bit less on action. I would also like there to be more focus on the Kirk-Spock-McCoy relationship. The first two movies were mostly about Kirk and Spock; the next movie should involve McCoy more and explore the relationship between the three of them.

It would also be great if you could introduce some of the classic recurring crew members seen on the original series. I would love to see Nurse Chapel, Mr. Kyle, Mr. Leslie, Dr. M’Benga and Janice Rand make appearances. Oh, and if you do end up using Klingons in the next film, try to find a way to feature Kor, Kang and Koloth. That said, i would prefer if there were no central villain in the next film but rather some scientific phenomenon that poses a danger to the crew or a solar system or the entire galaxy.

Above all else, I want you guys to take more risks with the next Trek. As much as I enjoyed STID, I felt it was too “safe.” The first movie was a real game-changer; you killed off Kirk’s father and Spock’s mother; you destroyed Vulcan in the new universe and Romulus in the prime universe; you changed everyone’s destinies. In the second film, Pike is killed and there *may* be a war with the Klingons, but beyond that, I didn’t feel anything in the movie was all that ballsy. The next movie should be Trek but it should also be ballsy.

Oh, and stay away from Earth. It’s been attacked in the last two movies; let’s give it a break, shall we? :)

1063. Rick - May 24, 2013

@1058-I don’t give a damn about an alternate reality. If you don’t like my opinion, I don’t care about that either. I’m obviously not alone. Get it through my thick skull? Very mature of you. Is he capable or a relationship? Yes? Does that mean we have to like it or feel that it is in character? No. And a lot of people don’t, and we are allowed to say that. Get that through YOUR thick skull.

“When people put a coat of paint on it like oh it’s bad for feminism or too much time was used for it or Zoe should be better than that..it just feels like a desperate attempt to make your feelings about the relationship more legitimate. Stop trying to come up with excuses and tell the truth.”

Those are good reasons, just not ones good enough for you. Who the hell are you to tell people how they feel or think about anything? Anyone’s feeling about the relationship are legitimate. Yours and mine differ entirely, but they are legit because they are OURS. That pisses me off more than anything, people on here who bitch “oh you’re just saying that to cover up what you REALLY think, tell the truth”. You know, since you know so much better what they think then they do themselves. The people who are against it because if feminist reasons are also legit, and have given very decent arguments for it, just because you don’t agree doesn’t make them wrong.

Ahmed can say whatever he wants. I will argue back with a post I see, but I would never presume to say that someone’s opinions are illegitimate because they are OPINIONS and because I’m not them. How arrogant are you?

1064. Charles Trotter - May 24, 2013

@boborci

As I told you on Twitter, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, although I do take issue with a few things. I felt the second half of the film was a bit predictable and padded-out. I realize this has more to do with the editing than the writing, but I feel the last 45 minutes or so should have been tightened a bit.

I appreciate the big callback scene to TWOK and why you guys did it, although I don’t think it worked 100%. As someone said before, there was a finality to it that shouldn’t have been there. I also think having Spock screaming “KHAAAAAAAN!” was a bit much; it was supposed to be dramatic but it just came off as parody.

Benedict Cumberbatch made a terrific villain, but as Khan, I felt he was lacking a lot of the elegance, arrogance and graciousness for which the character is known. I understand that he has spent a year under Marcus’ thumb, but I still would have liked to see a bit more of Khan’s charisma and self-satisfaction.

For the next film, I would like the focus to be more on science fiction and a bit less on action. I would also like there to be more focus on the Kirk-Spock-McCoy relationship. The first two movies were mostly about Kirk and Spock; the next movie should involve McCoy more and explore the relationship between the three of them.

It would also be great if you could introduce some of the classic recurring crew members seen on the original series. I would love to see Nurse Chapel, Mr. Kyle, Mr. Leslie, Dr. M’Benga and Janice Rand make appearances. Oh, and if you do end up using Klingons in the next film, try to find a way to feature Kor, Kang and Koloth. That said, i would prefer if there were no central villain in the next film but rather some scientific phenomenon that poses a danger to the crew or a solar system or the entire galaxy.

Above all else, I want you guys to take more risks with the next Trek. As much as I enjoyed STID, I felt it was too “safe.” The first movie was a real game-changer; you killed off Kirk’s father and Spock’s mother; you destroyed Vulcan in the new universe and Romulus in the prime universe; you changed everyone’s destinies. In the second film, Pike is killed and there *may* be a war with the Klingons, but beyond that, I didn’t feel anything in the movie was all that ballsy. The next movie should be Trek but it should also be ballsy.

Oh, and stay away from Earth. It’s been attacked in the last two movies; let’s give it a break, shall we? :)

Let me wrap up by saying, thanks for taking the time to read and reply to our comments. It is truly awesome of you. Cheers! :)

1065. Charles Trotter - May 24, 2013

Sorry if my message was posted twice. It disappeared on me the first time.

1066. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 24, 2013

Phil – APOLOGIZE NOW!

Maybe while you are at it, try activating those very dull brain cells, if it is at all possible. Sorry, but there is no “magic blood” available to help you with the process. You are all on your own.

If you are able to activate anything, at least, when you do troll and are too insensitive and stupid not to deliberately misinterpret and make totally false accusations against me, you actually might come off as just being remotely amusing.

You disgust me!

1067. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

“Star Trek After Darkness” comic preview:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?pid=16635&pg=1

1068. Rick - May 24, 2013

@1067Ahmed-

Thanks for the link dude. Looks pretty good.

Love Bones being a smartass. Never gets old :)

1069. Ahmed - May 24, 2013

@ 1068. Rick – May 24, 2013

“Thanks for the link dude. Looks pretty good.”

You are welcome :)

“Love Bones being a smartass. Never gets old :)”

lol, yep. And he is right, it hard to believe the Kirk of that universe will come up with something as beautiful & inspiring as that ode.

1070. Curious Cadet - May 24, 2013

@1067 Ahmed,

I see … So we’re jumping straight ahead to the next Nick Meyer film on the hit parade, the one where Kirk is enemy no. 1 of the klingon empire.

1071. Rick - May 24, 2013

@1069. Ahmed

“lol, yep. And he is right, it hard to believe the Kirk of that universe will come up with something as beautiful & inspiring as that ode.”

You know, I could actually see him coming up with that. I think AU Kirk is a lot smarter and more sensitive than people think. I don’t think they give him enough credit, but that is understandable, seeing as in these films they are making him out to be such a horndog lol but I see quite a bit of TOS Kirk in him :)

1072. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 25, 2013

#1070 – Oh god, please no.

War with the Klingons was supposed to have been averted.

@ Bob Orci -
Unfortunately, Admiral Pike died so he does not get to command a new space station near the farthest edge of known space. That is sad.

This position will go to a Commander Danielle Lui, who is of Asian/Polynesian descent. She has a tall, well rounded Polynesian build with a blend of very beautiful Polynesian/Asian features. Danielle is well spoken, firm but fair with knowledge that belies her youthful appearance. She knows who she is, what she wants and expects of others under her command and they know it. She encourages honour and respect. She has a science background – xenobiology, xenobotany and horticulture. Plants and animals have always been fascinating to her, especially the extraterrestrial ones.

The opportunity to command a new space station is a very exciting venture for her. Getting it set up has been exhausting at times, even though she has a good tight group of well trained engineers and other specialists getting the job done. Danielle is looking forward to being able to welcome the Starship Enterprise, along with its young captain and crew, to the (almost) fully operational space station. Scotty has a little work to do to get the station ready.

Kirk is finally on his way. The Enterprise makes a stop at New Vulcan to drop off passengers and supplies. Then it is onto more extensive charting of areas of space that probes have identified as being reasonably safe to venture into… The journey is slow because a lot needs to be catalogued and much is fairly uneventful and routine. At one point, Kirk is moseying around one of the cargo holds and looks at one of inventory lists. He asks, “What is ‘taro’?”…

As the ship begins its approach to the area of space where the space station is positioned, Chekov keeps noticing blips, emanations that are unusual – they wonder if they are being followed by a cloaked Klingon ship perhaps… the ship’s deflector sensors register that it was hit by something small, but no damage…
************************************************************************************
Commander Danielle Lui is a character I have just created in the last hour.

Anyway, this is my contribution to an original story line. See where it takes me…or not.

1073. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 25, 2013

@1053 Devyn

” Overall from the polls and comments I’ve seen from many sites most either dislike the romance or just dont care about it at all.”

Well, when I did a poll on them at the bbs, most people either liked them or didn’t mind them. And, to be very honest, this website is mostly a bastion for Kirk/TOS fans from my observations. I think that’s what the website prefers as well, but that’s just what it looks like to me.

Honestly, I’ve witnessed quite the opposite, but I think maybe we go to different places. I usually don’t run into a whole lot of dislike for S/U until I come here, and that is headed off by “the usual suspects” as well, if you will.

1074. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 25, 2013

Addition to 1073, and I guess the good thing is that the dislike here even seems to have tapered off. So, for me that’s progress. It seems more like people are accepting these different versions of the characters for the people they are in the AOS, and not expecting a recreation of TOS because “that’s the way it “has to be” or something.

1075. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

What has “tapered off” is readership of this thread after it became taken over by the big shippers tangent …

1076. MelyBelle44 - May 25, 2013

@1063

Okay darlin, just one comment on your response.

You talk about things that are “in character” and “out of character” as if it is “out of character” for Spock to be in a relationship. Yet, what do you base as your reason for what is in or out of Spock’s character? The only thing you could possibly base it on is his Prime Universe character.

Prime Spock and Nu Spock are different people. Just like Prime Kirk and Nu Kirk. Just like Prime Sarek and Nu Sarek. Just like Prime Carol Marcus and Nu Carol Marcus. Different people. Different characters.

It IS in character for Spock to be a relationship type of guy in this universe, and you know why? Because he is in one!

1077. Lone Browncoat - May 25, 2013

Egad!
I’m going to ruin my Saturday if I read every post here, so two last points from me then I have to go to run errands and other stuff.

I decided in the long run to just relax at subsequent viewings and take it in as the action/adventure movie that it is, like a Bond Film or any movie with Bruce Willis because movies have to be over-the-top for some, yet I also enjoyed the more intimate, quieter ones like the “….Timothy Green” movie I saw recently.

To help clear up one last nit about the blood.
Writers come from liberal arts degrees or english majors.
In the Bermanverse, they goofed with Crusher/the Holodoc.
We all agree here that you can’t inoculate against radiation.
What happens is cell damage from DNA unravelling itself
and/or going out of control. ie Cancer.
What you want is a substance that can repair DNA or nanobots. Urban’s McCoy comes close to that in dialogue that he made a serum [not whole blood], flushed Pine-Kirks system, the serum allowed the cells to repair themselves and most likely let the bone marrow build new undamaged cells.
Kirk would still be dosed with radiation but the serum would allow a kick-start of the healing/cell repair process.
I’d have to re-listen to the rapid fire dialogue to be sure.
While in the present, toxic radiation poisoning would be a death sentence, or at least a bitch to treat, you’re exposed every day, especially while flying. Yet the body handles it and repairs itself, the key would be concoctions to administer when exposure is massive.

1078. Fizzben - May 25, 2013

Saw the movie again yesterday this time in 3D. The second viewing is always the test for me. I have time to digest what I saw the first time and see if it holds up the second time around. It did. I enjoyed the movie nearly as much as the first time and got to catch little things I missed the first time. 3D didn’t add much to it though. I think 2D is just as enjoyable and less expensive. I actually accepted the Spock/Uhura romance this time around after hating it in the first movie. It seemed to fit better. However Spock just isn’t as Vulcan in this version as in the original. In the original series Spock rejected all things human, but embraced it more after his resurrection. I’m guessing that aspect has transpired earlier due to the death of his mother.
Mr. Orci, I’m really eager to see some real sci-fi for the next movie. Something about a strange new world and new civilizations. Be Bold!

1079. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 25, 2013

@#1075 Wm. Bradley

“What has “tapered off” is readership of this thread after it became taken over by the big shippers tangent …”

While I can’t say if that’s true or not, what I can say is that even in the threads where the “shippers” haven’t had what you call “tangents” there, I’ve seen things taper off. I’ve read more threads than I’ve posted in, thank you very much.

Also, can you tell me where you are getting your readership numbers from in comparison with every other thread here or even every other thread on the first page?

1080. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

You’re joking.

1081. Mcflycat - May 25, 2013

@boborci

One more day left in the week that you said you would address khans altered appearance. Any update?

1082. harry_g - May 25, 2013

I know many fans on this site have issues with the Enterprise being underwater at the beginning of the movie. So do I. My biggest problem with it is, “What was she doing under there?” Spock was going to neutralize the volcano with his cold bomb by being lowered from a shuttle. The shuttle could just as easily come from orbit out of the Enterprise’s shuttle bay. If the Enterprise had stayed in orbit, it should have had a direct line of sight to both the shuttle and the volcano in order to beam people to safety in an emergency.

Did anybody catch a reason stated in dialog as to what exactly the Enterprise was doing in the ocean?

Now if the E had to be in the water for some reason, I had an idea for a much more plausible way to accomplish this. What if they had done a saucer separation and only the saucer section had gone to the surface and submerged? It is more believable that the sleek saucer section could be capable of atmospheric travel and better able to withstand submersion than all the warp drive components of the engines and stardrive section.

That could have made a great scene at the end of the mission when the saucer section rose out of the ocean and ascended into orbit and docked with the stardrive section.

Just my take on it.

1083. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 25, 2013

@Wm. Bradley

Well William, at least I know that your readership of this thread hasn’t tapered off because of the “shipper tangents.” Thank for reading, and no, I’m not joking. ;-)

1084. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

Well, then the joke is on someone, because I’m certainly not slogging through all that stuff.

1085. Lords Of Kobol Book - May 25, 2013

@boborci and his request for thoughts on what’s next …

Simply put, I want to see strange new worlds. Like Nibiru, but for the whole film. Adhere to Kirk’s speech from the end of the film and have them be explorers. Sure, let there be action and excitement. I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing some Klingons again. But, first and foremost, exploration.

Maybe they’re exploring for the first part of the film when hostilities begin and the Enterprise is dispatched to a strategic location, not unlike “Errand of Mercy” (but without the god-like Organians). Maybe there are Prime Directive concerns (like “A Private Little War”). Just a suggestion; not an invitation for a full-on episode remake.

I love the film. Thank you.

1086. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 25, 2013

No, just enough to respond to what you do “slog” through. Thank you, William.

1087. Jemini - May 25, 2013

I’ve finally read most of the discussion going here and I find myself agreeing with Sam and Karen the most

@1053 Devyn

”Overall from the polls and comments I’ve seen from many sites most either dislike the romance or just dont care about it at all.”

maybe your google got hacked by a S/U hater ;)
fanlore listens them as a popular ship. Based on what? They take as a reference (for every ship not just them) stats like the amount of fanfictions written about them (they’re the second most popular ship of the franchise. Guess what is the most popular ;) ), fanarts, fansites/blogs. In short fankworks and fandom activity of any kind that is pro that thing and compare it to the fandon activity about pairs in that franchise.
The S/U livejournal community has 2000 members ( the Kirk/Spock have around 3000 members even thought they’re way older as a ship ) though I get the impression that recently tumblr is taking over most of the fandom’s activity and that’s where people post stuff and talk about things. There are two blogs dedicated to S/U and they have many followers (it’s the same thing as livejournal members)

Maybe you expect all these people to care about the arguments made in this site and post here just to prove to you that they’re “real” too and so are their opinions. But not all the fans are the same and/or like to express their opinions about a movie/show/book in the same way.

1088. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2013

@1082. harry_g,
“If the Enterprise had stayed in orbit, it should have had a direct line of sight to both the shuttle and the volcano in order to beam people to safety in an emergency.”

You’re a glutton for punishment aren’t you?

There will ALWAYS be an answer retconned for any situation that bothers anyone. For instance, sure there was line of sight, but there was also significantly more distance for the accumulation of magnetically charged particles to interfere, thus — not only line of sight but proximity. Easy enough.

What I think you and others don’t like, is that they didn’t even try to explain it, and simply tried to foist it on the audience without giving it a second thought.

1089. Jemini - May 25, 2013

just dropping the link to this essay about star trek into darkness because it’s worth a read:
http://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/vulcan-survivors-guilt-why-jj-abrams-should-make-mr-spock-the-hero-of-the-new-star-trek-franchise

I find myself agreeing with some of the points they’re making there.

1090. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

That didn’t even make sense, I’m afraid.

But whatever.

>1086. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 25, 2013
No, just enough to respond to what you do “slog” through. Thank you, William.

1091. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

… SHIP ON!

1092. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 25, 2013

@190/1Wm. Bradley

It did make sense, William. It means that you were able to read comments in this thread and respond to them, and you’ve just done. So, you “slogged” through enough to be able to do that.

“… SHIP ON!”

See there, William. I knew we could agree. ;-)

1093. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

1067 Ahmed -

Veeeeery interesting. April is back. And hints that Marcus was working on more projects than just John Harrison. This may get interesting.

1070 Curious Cadet –

perhaps. We also have 3 years worth of comics to go through before the next movie as well so I’m not sure one can assume the situation as it exists now will still exist then.

1082 harry_g -

perhaps it was a form of risk management. we know there were issues trying to beam people up or down due to the volcano. If the shuttle went down (as it did) and they were unable to transport, then all 5 of them would have perhaps been stuck up creek without a paddle.

Or at least that’s the best explanation that I can come up with.

1088 Curious Cadet -

not explaining it is part of the problem with having a “technobabble” solution without actually including the technobabble. I think Star Trek writers (at least the ones doing the movies) learned long ago that most people watching the movie don’t really give a crap about explanations like that unless it’s just necessary.

Us Trek fans? Sure, I’m sure most of us don’t mind or even like the Technobabble. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it has a place in a movie.

1094. Phil - May 25, 2013

@1082. Keeping in mind I’ve not seen the movie yet…

Someone posted the question, that if Enterprise was underwater, just how did they launch the shuttlecraft to begin with….I’m assuming someone answered it?

1095. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

Well, apparently Star Trek only made $10 million on it’s 2nd Friday (below 2009′s $13 million, and a drop of 55% from an already disappointing first Friday.

Into Darkness now has around $119 million and could have something like $140 million by the end of this weekend. Then it’s the long haul to see if it can eventually claw it’s way to $200 million

1096. endeavour crew - May 25, 2013

#1081-Mcflycat

That may not have been the REAL boborci…….

Imposters have come on here before so we’ll have to wait and see…..

1097. Phil - May 25, 2013

@1066. Funny, because you tend to be very amusing…and very, very predictable.

Oh, and good luck with your adventures in fan fiction. Still entertaining the idea you are a script consultant, I see….

1098. Phil - May 25, 2013

@1096. Right now, he’s probably the real deal. The site is well moderated at the moment – in six months, when it’s back on autopilot, might be a different story.

1099. boborci - May 25, 2013

1081

sure, why not?

Basically, as we went the casting process and we began honing in on the themes of the movie, it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that. One of the points of the movie is that we must be careful about the villain within US, not some other race.

1100. boborci - May 25, 2013

1050. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 24, 2013

Correct — they misquoted me. Kelvin named after JJ’s gramps and Captain Robau named after my uncle.

I said I named him after the very Captain of the Kelvin. Guess they didn’t take notes fast enough;)

1101. MikeB - May 25, 2013

@ Bob Orci -

Again – great job on STID. Now moving foreword I was thrilled to read that you would like to do a more Sci Fi heavy third film. That is exactly what a lot of us have been hoping for. There is still room for plenty of fun and action – it doesn’t have to be TMP, but big idea Sci Fi has always been a part of Star Trek, and it’s past time for a little more in the movies.

Also, on my wish list, I would like some actual character growth for McCoy. He was used well in this film, but how about a minor arc about his daughter or something that moves him foreword as a character? Urban is great in the roll, and it’s about time for a McCoy thread.

Lastly, Damon has said recently that he may not be available if Paramount wants to move quickly on another film. Will you bring in someone else then?

1102. boborci - May 25, 2013

1025. Other Guy – May 24, 2013

Agree that underwear debate is a distraction.

Have not said anything about 911 in relation to this movie.

Nonetheless, I don’t understand why anyone would be angered by citizens questioning their leaders. As Thomas Jefferson, it is the highest from of patriotism.

And I don’t believe that I can be classified as a liberal nor a conservative.

1103. boborci - May 25, 2013

1016. KHAAAN the weasel – May 24, 2013

Don’t cry for me, Argentina;)

1104. LizardGirl - May 25, 2013

@ Phil
Whaddaya waiting for?! Go see it. Hurry!!!

1105. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

1099 boborci –

OK, that explains why you cast Cumberbatch from a movie production and writing point of view.

Now how about an explanation for the difference of their races in canon? lol

1106. boborci - May 25, 2013

979. MelyBelle44 – May 24, 2013

Without a doubt.

1107. boborci - May 25, 2013

1105 Josh C.

uhm…. one of his abilities is that he is a shape shifter?

1108. boborci - May 25, 2013

1101. Mike B

Thanks!

Agree about McCoy. He is awesome and there is room for much more.

1109. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

Apparently, my writing is still too unclear for you, SpockUhuraShipper.

I have read less than 5% of the endless profusions on the Spock-Uhura tangent. My edge registers blocks of text devoted to it and moves on. Your comment made no sense. It was like an Eliza program.

Now I see Bob Orci might be surfacing.

Which, unlike your obsession, does interest me.

Oh, my view on Spock and Uhura. A little goes a very long way. This Spock is too emo. And Uhura, who could be a breakout character, is in danger of becoming angry girlfriend instead.

That is all on that tangent.

>1092. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 25, 2013
@190/1Wm. Bradley

It did make sense, William. It means that you were able to read comments in this thread and respond to them, and you’ve just done. So, you “slogged” through enough to be able to do that.

“… SHIP ON!”

See there, William. I knew we could agree. ;-)

1110. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2013

@1093. Josh C.,
“Veeeeery interesting. April is back. And hints that Marcus was working on more projects than just John Harrison. This may get interesting.”

If you have been reading the comics it is implied that Marcus (as revealed in STID) has been pulling the strings behind several of the issues involving Section 31, or shadow organization projects. Namely the Archons, operation annihilate, and Tribbles reimaginings. This is merely a continuation of that thread with Marcus’ name attached.

That said, this is another problem with the canon-until-contradicted-on-film situation …

If Marcus really wanted to start a war with the Klingons and/or defeat them, instead of transwarp beaming Harrison to Qo’noS, he should have directly beamed tons of Tribbles to locations all over the planet. While the Klinons were busy dealing with that, he could have handily invaded and conquered them.

1111. marty - May 25, 2013

@boborci

if I might make a suggestion, if you’re involved in the next trek movie.. since it’s ‘due’ out for 2016–the 50th/’golden’ anniversary of the franchise.. I think the gold pressed latinum loving ferengi need to make some sort of appearance in the movie. also, a 1 sentence on-screen explanation onto why khan was british would fix the canonatics’ quarrels.

1112. boborci - May 25, 2013

1109. WB

The Spock Uhura thing is something I concocted because I was inspired by the idea that his parents were essentially an interracial/interspecies couple. There’s the old saying that boys marry their mothers — falling in love or choosing to be with a human woman is a form of that, no?

1113. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2013

@1099. boborci,
“it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that. One of the points of the movie is that we must be careful about the villain within US, not some other race.”

While I respect the politically correct rationale behind this, it appears too easy a cop out.

Marcus is the villain within US. Not Khan. If anything I would think in light of Marcus being one of US, we would want Harrison to represent what WE do to others, especially ones not like US. Demonstrating how others can be driven to the extremes they take because of OUR treatment of them.

I’m happy to listen to other interpretations, but isn’t that what Harrison’s role is in this?

In the end, I wish the movie were more ethnically diverse. But it seems that will never be possible as long as the only other major roles in the film are antagonists for which we must be careful of projecting the wrong impression to an international audience?

1114. boborci - May 25, 2013

1113. CC

I think if you know me at all based on everything you can read on this site and others, you know this is not a cop out.

And K’s blood literally ends up within Kirk.

I agree Marcus is the true villain.

I don’t agree with the implication that we were trying to placate an international audience through political correctness.

1115. Ahmed - May 25, 2013

Hey Anthony, is this the real Bob or an imposter ?

Bob usually write one paragraph or even one word in his replies to the fans here!!

1116. dmduncan - May 25, 2013

Hmm. On one hand that’s a valid concern. On the other hand, Khan IS a person of color. But his color is incidental. The supermen and women were criminal men and women of all races.

Little story. I saw Star Trek again in a city somewhere in the west. Lots of American Indians here. I was hanging out at the library and once when I used the bathroom listened to a conversation between two American Indians.

They apparently didn’t know each other. One was drunk. The one who was NOT drunk told the one who was that he was a disgrace, that by walking around drunk in public he was making their people look bad.

When he said that I thought to myself that he was actually making HIMSELF look bad, not his people.

But then I also realized that what the sober Indian was really saying is that they (American Indians) live in a society that judges their entire racial group by the stereotypical actions of a few. They live among bigots. A white bigot of that state might see that drunk Indian and think “Indians are nothing but a bunch of drunks.” So while that sober Indian might not have been a bigot, he was clearly letting the bigoted mindset that judges the character of a group by the actions of a few (rather than judging every man and woman regardless of race as they come to you) decide his reaction to seeing a drunk Indian in public. I think he was probably concerned about how white folk would respond, i.e., that it would reinforce the stereotupes that so many white bigots have of Indians in that state, making it more difficult for all Indians to escape that perception.

The question then becomes how to react. Do you let how the racists and bigots see things determine what YOU do, how YOU think? Or should the proper response be to give them no power to decide your actions at all?

Not an easy question to answer since in the long game there might be good strategic reasons for playing along with that unfortunate mindset.

But in the case of Khan, Benedict Cumberbatch overturns a longstanding perception of who that character is, one that long predates 9/11.

No doubt about it, there were a number of dilemmas surrounding the choice to do Khan in the first place; I always argued that doing a Khan story was fine as long as it was good (and this WAS a good story and, therefore, fine), but I also argued that the casting should be as faithful to the Khan character as it was for the bridge crew because of how established the identity of Khan is.

And I appreciate Bob trying to take the heat for the decision. He’s a good man. But ultimately the up or down vote belongs to JJ. As director of the movie with an obviously STRONG VISUAL sense, the center seat is HIS on decisions regarding how the film ultimately LOOKS.

1117. boborci - May 25, 2013

Ahmed

Not when the movie is out!

Alright. I’ll fess up:

Bob Orci is a fiction invented to hide my true identity… my name is KHAN!

1118. I give up - May 25, 2013

So, according to Mr. Orci above, Khan was changed into a white guy because the filmmakers were uncomfortable casting an Indian man to play an Indian character. There are so many things wrong with that reasoning that I can’t even begin to list them all. Instead, I will just give up and will wait for a new creative team to take over the franchise, assuming it continues.

1119. Ahmed - May 25, 2013

<>

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-fast-furious-6-558554

1120. Scuba - May 25, 2013

@boborci,

What do you think the chances are of our friend Alex K. stepping into the director’s chair for the next movie? Keeping it “in the family.” I know he’s only directed one movie, but I think Joss Whedon/Avengers is a good example of why that might not matter so much.

Thanks for a great film! Hoping to see it for a 3rd time soon. I personally don’t know how any Trek fan can watch Kirk death scene and not feel anything but goosebumps. I know you put that in there FOR us, not to piss us off, and it fully worked for me in the context of the story. Well done, sir!

I’m looking forward to seeing more strange new worlds now that the 5-year mission has started.

1121. dmduncan - May 25, 2013

And JJ strikes me as pretty humble for what he does. He says he learns from criticism, and the cutback on lens flares in STID proves that he listens.

I wish him the best on Star Wars, and really hope he doesn’t learn what it feels like to be George Lucas.

1122. Ahmed - May 25, 2013

Somehow the text is missing from my post!!

—————————–
Into Darkness, directed by J.J. Abrams, held in well despite the competition, declining 53 percent in its second Friday to roughly $10.2 million for a domestic total of $50.4 million.

The pic should earn $50 million-plus for the four-day weekend (several rival studios even have it beating Hangover III).

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-fast-furious-6-558554

1123. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2013

@1114. boborci,
“I think if you know me at all”

And I don’t, but yes — give you the benefit of the doubt from your online persona.

My apologies, as I said and meant no disrespect. Let me clarify, that I intended your answer gives the ‘appearance’ of placating an international audience, and seems a relatively easy one to give in the face of current geo-political climate. I have not been following Iron Man 3, but they seem to have made a similar choice in casting Mandarin (though that’s considerably different and more ambiguous, still the criticism has been made), and that gives pause for concern. But I don’t dismiss that your answer was genuine.

Nevertheless, I do fear that going forward, Start Trek is destined to be a “white man’s club”, especially if the antagonists must all be white for risk of demonizing a person of color (not that this is necessarily your overall position). Once the villains are removed there’s not much left in terms of roles for major characters in Star Trek. I congratulate you for casting another major female lead who may be recurring. It’s just too bad Marcus had to be white as well. The thought occurs to me that in ST VI TUC, Admiral Cartwright played by Brock Peters was not taken to disparage an entire race by his actions, but perhaps its still too soon in the war on terrorism for persons who appear of ‘Middle Eastern’ ethnicity.

Nevertheless, I still feel that Khan was there to represent all of those WE would persecute in the name of freedom around the world, and to make him white and British does not do that allegory to OUR behavior much service.

1124. boborci - May 25, 2013

1123 CC

fair point, but most people will only see a terrorist. KIDS will only see a terrorist.

1125. Ahmed - May 25, 2013

@bob, if that is really you :)

Are you guys begin talking about the 3rd movie or still waiting to hear back from Paramount ?

1126. MikeB - May 25, 2013

@boborci

Just read that JJ felt hamstrung over legal issues preventing more Trek tie ins on TV and such. Is this true? If so what does it bode for some kind of Trek TV presence which the franchise needs to be competitive?

1127. Disinvited - May 25, 2013

#1107. boborci – May 25, 2013

Interesting…so you are saying that having established a Section 31, they have been there, active, and surveilling and learning darn near everything. And Khan knows what they know or a significant portion as any of their field agents would?

Shapeshifting super spies would be an interesting update on Mission Impossible’s established Rollin/Paris skills. Also a nice explanation for why DS9 established that shapeshifters were rare, i.e. Section 31 recruits or worse, research.

1128. boborci - May 25, 2013

and by the way — when I was a Kid and saw WOK, I had NO IDEA the guy was Indian. NONE at all.

1129. Curious Cadet - May 25, 2013

@1124. boborci,
“fair point, but most people will only see a terrorist. KIDS will only see a terrorist.”

As well as you make a fair point.

Dmduncan’s post above @1116 makes an excellent observation, one which we as a society must face head on. I’m not entirely certain that ‘most people’ will see only ‘a terrorist’. But I’d like to see some studies and learn more … And ultimately I suppose that’s what Star Trek is all about … Getting people to ask questions and learn something they didn’t know before …

Perhaps the best way to deal with is until then is to make all our villains half black and half white. ;-)

Best of luck.

1130. boborci - May 25, 2013

1126. MikeB – May 25, 2013

I actually have no idea. We have never discussed such a thing.

1131. boborci - May 25, 2013

1129. CC

“Perhaps the best way to deal with is until then is to make all our villains half black and half white. ;-)”

ha! I don’t think it is that extreme. Again, it is only because we are dealing sp specifically with a terrorism allegory that I got sensitive about it.

1132. HarryMudd.com - May 25, 2013

Hi boborci! Thank you for repeatedly taking the time to meet with the fans and tell us about your writing/development process. We also appreciate that you are a genuine fan, and know your chops when it comes to the various flavors of STAR TREK crafted through the last half century. Your knowledge of how the canon has grown since 1966, means you are directly aware when you’re breaking, bending or just plain old retconning the original canon.

Perhaps next time you can give Spock an inner eyelid (“Operation: Annihilate”) or use implosion to turn back time three days and handle things differently this time (“The Naked Time” with its own version of the Omega Thirteen Device), or best of all just use the Scalosian Water to speed up Spock or Scotty until they can make all the repairs in the “Wink of an Eye” and then drink McCoy’s cure to slow down to normal speed.

In short, if they have any originality, new episodes and new movies often have the potential of creating new canon, canon with all kinds of unevaluated ramifications, ramifications that could completely turn the fictional universe upside down.

Despite this, no one ever seems to complain about the Scalosian Water, or McCoy’s failure in a crisis to give Kirk another shot of Kironide, which was in McCoy’s medical kit (talk about convenient!) and which would again give Kirk the super mental energies needed to defeat “Plato’s Stepchildren,” mind powers so powerful as to be able to destroy a starship. And all of that is canon from the original series from 1966-69.

What all that previous retconning in mind, with the recognition of many ignored Trek “miracle” technologies or substances (controlled implosion, Kironide, Scalosian Water, etc.) all of which were later ignored, I wonder if the development team for STID ever considered the following:

Admiral Marcus failed to grasp the impact of a new, staggeringly disruptive technology that had come into his hands. With a portable transporter that can teleport a man across the cosmos and deep into “enemy” territory, all Marcus needed to do to win his preemptive war was gather a number of fusion bombs (or anti-matter bombs or whatever), and send them via portable transporter to all the worlds of the Klingon Empire and detonate them. Marcus would have preemptively killed billions in an unprovoked, sneak attack holocaust, but this seems to fit his character just fine; he’s a hard ass who is willing to make the “tough” decisions. But Admiral Marcus’ failure to grasp the potential impact of this new, disruptive technology, led instead to his building a dreadnaught based on the old paradigm.

If Admiral Marcus had sent bombs via a portable transporter, he would have also gained plausible deniability when everyone in the known galaxy freaked out about the annihilation of the Klingon people. Marcus could then argue for more security measures to counter this “new threat,” and publicly “worry” that the Klingons were only the first target, giving Marcus enormous domestic control. And all the while, Admiral Marcus would continue to nuke any planet he wished; all he’d need are the coordinates and his personal conviction that Earth would someday going to be threatened by them.

1133. boborci - May 25, 2013

DMDUNCAN

“But in the case of Khan, Benedict Cumberbatch overturns a longstanding perception of who that character is, one that long predates 9/11.”

——

I would take issue with this in that the main point of K’s character is that he was a genetically engineered superman. That was the true essence of the character. Not where he was from or the color of his skin.

1134. Ahmed - May 25, 2013

@boborci

Since you have your own production company, have you thought about writing an indie movie about 9/11 ?

1135. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

Well at least Star Trek fans can feel better. Hangover III is what it real box office bomb looks like, based on it’s numbers so far, heh.

1136. boborci - May 25, 2013

1132. HarryMudd.com – May 25, 2013

Interesting. I see the dilemma there. I guess my fix for that would be, and may be in the future, that any transporter capable race would be aware of such a possibility and therefore take some type of precautions. Perhaps the logic of the Terminator series applies here: only organic stuff can be transported.

1137. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

1133 boborci -

I’ll agree with that much, but you know us Trekkie fans lol. If the damn nacells aren’t the right shape we go insane, much less a major character’s race. :P

1138. boborci - May 25, 2013

1134. Ahmed

No. I prefer to disguise it all in summer blockbusters;)

1139. Ahmed - May 25, 2013

@ 1136. Josh C. – May 25, 2013

“Well at least Star Trek fans can feel better. Hangover III is what it real box office bomb looks like, based on it’s numbers so far, heh”

But STID got only $ 119 million so far. Not good when you take into account the budget.

1140. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

1139 Ahmed – it’s doing slightly behind 2009 but not THAT much behind, at least so far. I’m sure it’s not doing as well as they hoped, but I don’t think we can really label it a bomb.

Hangover III, however may be fighting for 2nd place with Star Trek this weekend. Not great for a franchise that made something like $250 million domestically with their previous 2 movies.

1141. boborci - May 25, 2013

1137. Josh C. – May 25, 2013

I’ll agree with that much, but you know us Trekkie fans lol. If the damn nacells aren’t the right shape we go insane, much less a major character’s race. :P

——

Which is all part of the fun. May Trek fans live long and prosper.

1142. Josh C. - May 25, 2013

@boborci

OK, I”ll wait for Kirk vs. Borg for the 4th movie if you make the 3rd movie a cool movie about exploration. But I want my Kirk vs. Borg flick eventually!!! haha

But rally, it would be interesting to see a famous, but not very often seen race, featured in the 3rd movie, whether that’s a Federation species like the Andorians or Tellerites or a non-Federation species like the Gorn or Tholians. Maybe some sort of space/natural disaster that threatens their worlds that the Enterprise has to stop, I dunno. Personally I’ve always loved the Andorians. I think their prominence in Enterprise is one reason why I like that series so much.

1143. Disinvited - May 25, 2013

Didn’t first Trek establish that they way the series would deal with having an antagonist of color is they would for the most part make them blue, one side black and other other white, recognizably nonhuman, etc.?

Of course with the Babel assassin they set the precedent that, like this movie’s Khan, he really wasn’t what he appeared to be.

1144. enterpriseJ - May 25, 2013

1035:
I kinda agree on: I think they felt they had to add the “we love the 911 veterans” note to get a free pass on the whole 911 conspiracy/Tonkin gulf allusion.
Hate the war, love the soldier stuff. EnterpriseJ

1145. Phasers On Stun - May 25, 2013

@boborci
Do you notice any parallels between fan reaction to Battle Star (BSG) and Star Trek. Was there any communication from Ron Moore, like words of wisdom etc?

I enjoyed the film. I’ve spoken to casual viewers who saw the film and they liked it. One mentioned his favorite scenes being: the Enterprise being fired upon will in warp (very cool), and he mentioned Spock calling his dad (I laughed but didn’t correct him). My point being most folks seeing the film aren’t going to carry all of the TOS baggage with them. They just want to be entertained.

You don’t need me to say job well done… but I’ll say it anyway.

1146. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

Bob, I have no problem with your hooking up Spock and Uhura. That was an intriguing element in ST09, a movie I like tremendously.

And the only time it bothered me in the least in STID was the near spat in the ship as they headed into action. I do think it’s important that Uhura, a breakout character, not be seen as defined by her relationship. And that Spock, who is understandably more emotional as a result of the destruction of Vulcan and death of his mother, which I also don’t have a problem with (though I was sad to see Winona Ryder go), not become too emo.

>1112. boborci – May 25, 2013
1109. WB

The Spock Uhura thing is something I concocted because I was inspired by the idea that his parents were essentially an interracial/interspecies couple. There’s the old saying that boys marry their mothers — falling in love or choosing to be with a human woman is a form of that, no?

1147. HarryMudd.com - May 25, 2013

1136. boborci – May 25, 2013
1132. HarryMudd.com – May 25, 2013
Interesting. I see the dilemma there. I guess my fix for that would be, and may be in the future, that any transporter capable race would be aware of such a possibility and therefore take some type of precautions. Perhaps the logic of the Terminator series applies here: only organic stuff can be transported.
—————————————–
Thanks! I’m looking forward to a tale from their five year mission!

1148. Allenburch - May 25, 2013

$199,527,000 total global through Friday-5/24. WOOT!

1149. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

Let us not forget about the awesome Klingon crusade against the Tribble homeworld, as Worf described in the great DS9 ep Trials and Tribble-ations.

I believe it all ended up explained to the Starfleet Time agents Mulder and Scully, I mean Dulmer and Lucsly.

This would merely have afford the Empire the opportunity to save on fuel.

>1110. Curious Cadet – May 25, 2013
@1093. Josh C.,

If Marcus really wanted to start a war with the Klingons and/or defeat them, instead of transwarp beaming Harrison to Qo’noS, he should have directly beamed tons of Tribbles to locations all over the planet. While the Klinons were busy dealing with that, he could have handily invaded and conquered them.

1150. Disinvited - May 25, 2013

#1140. Josh C. – May 25, 2013

Well, if you acknowledge that since 2009, there’s been inflation, then it’s wider than appears in your mirror.

1151. OhWell - May 25, 2013

Just saw the movie. It was ok, but it could have been good. Khan wasn’t even needed. Harrison could have just been a augment from section 31. Stealing pieces of the TWOK was just insanely lazy and insulting. I think the production values are great, and the cast as well…just think what they could do with some GOOD writers!

1152. Disinvited - May 25, 2013

#1136. boborci – May 25, 2013

Too late for that, you already established that it transwarp transports clothes. Besides, there’s always bioweapons.

1153. Jemini - May 25, 2013

1002. Karen – May 24, 2013
@992 Jemini

“Interesting quote. Where’s that from? I’d love to read the whole article.”

sorry late reply because I missed this comment

here’s the source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQrHIQhvWNo
(has the transcript too)

it’s interesting she talks about how she created the character of Uhura with Roddenberry and some fun stuff about her audition and how she read Spock’s character

1154. Scuba - May 25, 2013

Why is EVERYONE saying that using parts of WOK was “lazy” or “stealing?” Does everyone really think they simply included these moments simply because they had no other ideas? Like it or not, these are paying tribute to what we all loved before.

1155. Galli Freyan - May 25, 2013

I just got home after watching STID. I enjoyed the movie. That said, now that Starfleet has a regenerative factor made from Khan’s blood, will this discovery be forgotten as were other things such as Scalosian Water, Kironide, and Red Matter?

Speaking of Red Matter (I apologize to everyone for this part of my post) considering the destructive nature of a single drop of Red Matter, shouldn’t the larger ball on Spock’s ship, the Jellyfish, have resulted in a much larger black hole, after it’s collision with the Narada?

1156. Phil - May 25, 2013

@1104. I’d like to.. last weekend was my anniversary, so the wife and I were up in Big Bear, and if we go this weekend, my son the theater student wants to see The Great Gatsby…so it may have to wait until next weekend!! Someone has to hold up the box office a few weeks in!!

Oh, and on a side note to SoCal locals – there is a decent size public works project going on up there, and a lot of businesses in The Village are hurting – spend an afternoon up there if you can!

1157. dmduncan - May 25, 2013

Even if we were to pare down our assumptions about the character of Khan to the bare minimum of what was established in Space Seed by Marla McGivers and to say we could only SUSPECT that Khan was a Northern Indian Sikh, Cumberbatch still doesn’t fit the suspicion while Montalban does. Nor was that skin tone Montalban’s natural one, so the intent was clearly to make Montalban look more like what they thought an Indian should look like as far as skin tone.

But regarding his villainous character, his religion and race have nothing to do with it. Though I think most of Star Trek’s villains (TOS) have been played by white folk, in that episode Star Trek was an equal oppportunity employer.

Though it is true that the essence of Khan’s character is “genetically engineered superman,’ the presumption of Northern indian Sikh was also a perceived part of the character. That’s why a lot of us felt like we were sitting in James Bond’s Aston Martin ejection seat with Cumberbatch pulling the lever when he said “Khan!”

If he was going to be Khan, we expected the canon established Khan. Visually, Jordi Molla would have been a better fit, and it’s unlikely the same dispute would be occurring had he been cast.

BC makes a wonderful villain and he gave an excellent performance, but at no time do I, as a Star Trek fan familiar with SS and TWOK, recoignize Khan in him.

1158. New Horizon - May 25, 2013

@boborci

Thanks for coming here to brave the torrent of feedback.

My friends and I had some very conflicted feelings after having seen the movie.

It’s only my opinion and nary worth a dash of salt, but I felt Khan was completely unnecessary. The character of John Harrison was strong enough on his own to carry the film. I avoided all spoilers going into the film, so I hoped with all my might that you guys wouldn’t take the Khan route, I had a nagging feeling that you might but I held out hope. I was wrong.

I read elsewhere that Damon fought pretty hard for Khan. I feel he was wrong, and your initial instincts to resist were 100% correct.

If Khan had to be involved, I would have kept him off camera. Reveal that he was awakened and is imprisoned, but Harrison had been turned by Khan’s powerful nature, leaving the crew scratching their heads and baffled as to why this 300 year old inmate should be of any importance.

The ‘echos’ to the past scenes were a little too ‘on the nose’ for my liking…especially Spock yelling Khan. Zach’s build up to it was so intense and not a word needed to be said to sell that scene. Yelling Khan, for me at least, took away the sincerity of the moment and pushed it into parody.

I enjoyed the majority of the movie before the Khan reveal, but after that it was a mixed bag for me. I left feeling really let down.

I will wrap up by saying that I truly loved what you did with Trek 2009. I am totally accepting of the new timeline, but I feel 2013 stepped away from it somewhat and didn’t go as boldly.

I love the cast and I really hope we get to see one more film from you guys and I hope you knock it out of the park.

1159. William Bradley - May 25, 2013

Bob, since your concern was to avoid demonizing a person of color as the terrorist villain, which I understand all too well, the solution, especially with the casting of uber-Brit BC, was then obvious.

The villain is John Harrison, not Khan Noonien Singh.

>1099. boborci – May 25, 2013
1081

Basically, as we went the casting process and we began honing in on the themes of the movie, it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that. One of the points of the movie is that we must be careful about the villain within US, not some other race.

1160. dmduncan - May 25, 2013

Sorry, Bob. I know I’m being a pain in the ass. But it’s because I’m a Star Trek fan. I can’t fault any of you for not wanting to add to the perception in the media of Eastern or Middle-eastern folk as terrorists. I get that.

Maybe that’s why when all the casting candidates became stories on TM I was hoping the villain would be Joaquim. After seeing STID I don’t think a less famous character would have worked as well, but back when we didn’t know anything about the story and I saw the actors you all were looking at, that’s what I was hoping for.

1161. Disinvited - May 25, 2013

#1002. Karen – May 24, 2013

According to this:

http://kazari.dreamwidth.org/234267.html

It’s from a Q&A at a 2009 TrekFest in Riverside, Iowa.

1162. Basement Blogger - May 25, 2013

Watched Red Letter Media’s review. They complained that STID was not Star Trek in terms of ideas. Then they nitpick it death to support their views.

First, let me say the guys over there are Trekkers. They do a lot of research of back episodes to support their views. I mean they used a clip from TNG’s “Pen pals” as a source for a point.

But they are wrong when they dismiss STID as a big dumb action flick.
STID has a bunch of ideas. They go by fast but they’re there. The Prime Directive. War. The war on terror. Death. STID is not a perfect movie. Frankly, the movie could use more reflection and less warp speed. But it s a fine movie. I gave it an A.

1163. LostOnNCC1701 - May 25, 2013

Have no other idea of where to put this, but I think it’d be cool if ST3 (no matter who directs it) would be if it was the Doomsday Machine. It could stand for the dangers of exploration but also as a way of showing why exploration is so important.

1164. dmduncan - May 25, 2013

Bob:

You guys turned in a great story. But if it’s true that you voted NO on doing a Khan story against Damon’s YES, I would have supported you just on the basis of the dilemma that doing the character today presents. Adding to the perception of a certain group of people as terrorists should have made you uncomfortable. That would have made me say that perhaps to do Khan best, Khan should be saved for that day when things in the culture are different.

1165.</