SDCC17: Klingon ‘Torchbearer’ Revealed + Gentle Giant Announces ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Collectibles

Tonight is preview night at San Diego Comic-Con, and one of the most exciting things we have seen so far is at the 3D Systems Gentle Giant Studios booth. They are showing off a scaled-down version of a suit for a Klingon character named ‘The Torchbearer’ from Star Trek: Discovery. The character will appear in the pilot episode.

The suit was designed by Neville Page and Glenn Hetrick. Page and Hetrick are both working on Discovery and regularly featured on Syfy’s Face Off. Fans may also know Page as the concept and creature designer for the three Kelvin-era Star Trek feature films.

The suit was made using 3D Systems’ printing technology. According to a spokesperson, the 3D Systems/Gentle Giant suit could only be done using 3D printing due to “all the intricacies and the undercuts to the whole piece.”

The attention to detail on the suit, even in this scaled-down size, is truly impressive.

Also on display were some Klingon weapons, possibly used by the ‘Torchbearer.’

This ‘Torchbearer’ suit was seen near the end the Star Trek: Discovery trailer when you see Michael Burnham and a Klingon face off in EVA space combat.

Gentle Giant to make Star Trek: Discovery collectibles

Gentle Giant also revealed that they have a license for Star Trek: Discovery and plan on making mini-busts and statues from the show, in particular for the Klingons. They said they just picked up the license and are still working out the details but expect to be making announcements on Trek products soon and hope to have some available later this year.

Stay tuned to TrekMovie all week and weekend for our full team coverage of San Diego Comic-Con including more coverage soon on other new merchandise being shown on the exhibit floor.

Star Trek: Discovery premieres on September 24th on CBS with all subsequent episodes on CBS All Access in the US. See our Discovery info page for more details.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Discovery news at TrekMovie.


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The D’k tahg is really cool.

It is and looks like it opens like the typical D’ktahg we’ve always seen.

Indeed it is.

In the first pic with a closeup of the knife in the boot, that looks very much like the face of a Klingon with standard TNG-looking head ridges.

It sure does

So can someone help me figure this out… Discovery is set basically in the prime timeline…? BEFORE or after the Kelvin incident splits the timeline? Is it that this is essentially the same “The Cage” era prime timeline, except that they’ve adopted the visual aesthetic of the Abrams universe to update the look and make it feel modern?

Is it that this is essentially the same “The Cage” era prime timeline, except that they’ve adopted the visual aesthetic of the Abrams universe to update the look and make it feel modern?

Yep, that’s about right.

I think its entirely coincedental that some visuals look like the JJ films. I think its a case of modern big budget visuals. the Klingons are certainly different. The uniforms are different (other then the delta pattern).

Surely the people involved saw the JJ films (Kurtzman produced two of them) so there is likely some influence. But probably most sci fi producers would tell you they took influence of works they enjoyed.

I dont believe CBS could overtly use anything from the JJ films though, could they? Isnt that exclusive to Paramount now?

On the other hand, the kelvin was Prime Universe so it would make sense to respect that canon and evolve from it, which they seem to have done.

If we come across a Constitution Class ship, I strongly suspect they will create their own and not simply use the Enterprise from the JJ films.

And yes, this takes place ten years before TOS which I believe is about 24 years after the opening of 2009 (the Kelvin scenes). Kirk & Spock would be early 20s during the time of Discovery, Spock assigned to the Enterprise under Pike’s command.


“I think its entirely coincedental that some visuals look like the JJ films. I think its a case of modern big budget visuals.”

Actually it was an intentional move on the part of the showrunners.


Aaron Harberts: “And just visually speaking, there’s also a little hint in terms of what J.J. Abrams did, a little bit, in terms of some of the visuals.”

The Axanar folks also commented on being influenced by the Kelvin era films.

“a little hint” is hardly copying JJ films. They *should* have taken some note because the Kelvin is Prime Universe canon.

Nailed it!

Exactly right.
Which means old and new die hard fans with unmovable view points will be having epic tantrums and popping blood vessels all over their basement bedroom computer screens right about….NOW

Attic rooms.

The Klingon Empire is coming off as different and powerful… both a threat and a vastly alien culture to explore at the same time. I hope they build upon the TOS concept of the Empire as the USSR to the UFP as NATO. Starfleet Battles for instance always had a more exciting version of the Klingons as a former subject race of an ancient empire seeing themselves as the new heirs with subject races of their own and various conquests that the potential is really there for them to overpower the Federation. The FASA / Ford version of Klingons too (genetically engineering fusion races to setup future conquests, constant internal political conflicts, etc) I always thought was more alien and exciting than the TNG version (that being said I was ok with the concept of the Federation being a “positive” influence over time making good of the Klingons while at the same time making them boring Vikings and ending their aspirations of galactic domination which made them so exciting in TOS; it was something only Kirk could have pulled off obviously.).

Completely agree with you. It felt like there were so many options and possibilities of showing the Klingon Empire as as race of proud, powerful and well…alien people. They even carried a bit of mystery over with them in the very early stages of TNG but then (ironically) the more that the show focused on them, the more they seemed to lose their edge. They didn’t seem as powerful or as interesting as they started off being. It might be what I appreciate about Trek 6’s Klingons (overall – not simply Chang), they seemed like an alien race more than glorified space pirates who would growl and scowl and chug bloodwine. Sure they’re fun, but they lost a bunch of their mystique.

I still loved them the most in DS9 and when they ended the treaty. The Klingons being back to their old selves were BACK!

To be honest I never liked them on TOS, they just looked too weird and awkward to take seriously although I thought the back story was cool. Its not until the movies and then TNG I really started to like them.

Looking this looks more like it belongs on the set of Riddick.

Funny that you mention it. When I first saw those concept drawings of the Klingon “sarcophagus ship” it actually reminded me a bit of the Necromonger citadel ship in “Chronicles of Riddick”.
I called them KlinGoths once – due to their makeup reminding me a bit of Nosferatu in the 1970s Werner Herzog remake (not so much the Murnau original, since Max Schreck’s makeup also included those huge eyebrows) and the sets and costumes having a certain general ‘gothic horror’ vibe to them – but I guess they’re actually NecroKlingons.

Do you mean there is going to be some broader explanation of the Klingons after 40 years? I thought they were a warrior race. You mean there is more?!

UNTHINKABLE. I just don’t know how to react!?



Nice analysis and comparison to the Riddick movies, JAGT.

Good lord the detail is BEAUTIFUL! I know there will be many complaints from purists but the “spine” motif that flows through the suit and the ridges. It’s inherently Klingon but a much more modern design. Not bashing the show but it may have gone over more smoothly with all fans if it were a post TNG/VOY series. The changes would be more easily explained but me personally, I’m stoked! Hopefully a new trailer and imagery and information will pour out of Comic Con this weekend for us fans of the show to chew on.

Yeah and if you look closely, you can see that there is a number of distinctly “Klingon” looking details on that costume, like the spikes on top of the boots. The designers sure didn’t go in there without thinking.
As for the whole “post-VOY would be better”-concern: Oh I DEFINITELY used to think that as well and part of me still wonders why they can’t just move forward. It’s as though CBS was utterly convinced that Trek is just inherently “retro”… But that’s just crying over spilt milk now. After all, we still don’t know any essential details about this special brand of Klingons and what they’re up to. Maybe they’re an orthodox Klingon sect, dedicated to ultra-Klingon fanciness and the great cause of creating the ultimate Klingon reptoid or something…

If I recall, one issue JJ had with CBS was they refused to stop selling original TOS merchandise at a time Bad Robot was trying to market their own versions and create a Bad Robot-owned sub universe of Star Trek where they’d cross over into TV, animation etc.

The point being, the TOS era is still the money tree. To me, thats the clear reason Paramount went with a reboot in 2009.

In this particular case, Im not so sure. Fuller has been said to have had a specific idea that required Discovery being set in this specific time frame. We’ll have to wait and see. Since its all new characters, I would think the argument in favour of them wanting to exploit the TOS era wouldnt be there.

On the other hand, as we’re seeing, the opportunity to refresh the TOS-era props etc could be a selling feature, at least to the marketing people.

When it comes to the Klingons I would not be surprised if, among the creative folks at least, there is a conscious decision to want to rehabilitate them after years of sort of wishy washy, friend-of-star fleet watering down.

TUP – “…Fuller has been said to have had a specific idea that required Discovery being set in this specific time frame. We’ll have to wait and see..”

That’s one thing I’m very interested in finding out. The “why” of the time period.

Hopefully that key story point remained after Fuller left. I’d hate to hear that Fuller had a specific reason but no one knows what it is lol

“Must you think so linearly Jean-Luc!?” People are always expressing regret that CBS didn’t move forward with the timeline to set Discovery after TNG/DS9. I think if we think of spreading things ‘outward’ as opposed to moving forward, you’ll see that there’s a huge opportunity for Trek world-building, and if a world can be built with multifaceted stories, intricate species, and nuanced characters, the story can open up in a way that we haven’t yet experienced in Trek. Pitting it close to the TOS era only enhances this opportunity, as we all have familiarity with it, but there’s so much more for all of us to learn. At least that’s the way I’m looking at it. I couldn’t be more excited.

Look I don’t disagree but I think what people like me are disappointed in is this is the THIRD prequel in 15 years. I think thats what really bugs a lot of people. We have already gone ‘outward’ with Enterprise in the 22nd century. We then did another universe entirely with TOS in the 23rd century with the KT films. Now Discovery we seem to be back there again…only 10 years before TOS.

And remember how well most fans has accepted Enterprise and the KT movies? And for the record I like both of them. It took me awhile to finally come around to Enterprise. I didn’t really watch it until after it was cancelled (although I did see most of first season). As for the KT films I like them for what they are: Fun escapist action films with the spirit of TOS. As many I did have lots of issues with STID but I didn’t hate it and I thought Beyond was the best out of the three even if the story felt a bit generic.

But yes I’m kind of tired of rehashing things we know about the past. I don’t really need more stories to ‘fill in’ about stuff we kind of already know about. I admit that was one of the best things about Enterprise in its 4th season and why I think a lot of people liked it more. Same time did I REALLY needed to know why Klingons didn’t have ridges in the 23rd century or why the Orion women are the way they are or how augments were produced? No, not really but yes it was fine to do.

But for me I kind of like to see where Starfleet is post Dominion. I would be fine with a fall of the Federation story line. I would love to see a story about a ship that explores Romulan space after the destruction of Romulus. Or even a Starship that finds a way to leave our galaxy for the first time. In other words GO BIG!

When you do a prequel you just can’t go big without violating things we know. Enterprise did that 3rd season with the Xindi attack. And what was the NUMBER ONE complaint about that story line? That we never heard of the Xindi or the Xindi attack on Earth so therefore its not ‘real’ canon. THIS right here is what bugs me. I had no problems with the Xindi or its place on Enterprise. None, but others DID and thats the problem.

And even now, I can’t tell you how many times I read anal fans upset that Enterprise ignored this canon and the KT films violated that. And don’t get me wrong, they are usually right, but that PROVES A. Just how hard it is to do a prequel when you are up against 40+ years of canon and B. That a lot of the people who say they want prequels are the first people to moan anytime something isn’t shown or written exactly how it looks in their little heads.

Most of the moaning about Discovery so far isn’t about the actual stories or characters, its just how everything looks out of place or the latest silly complaint, how a species no one seen before is on a starship is somehow wrong because we should have seen them in the future. Or that the Klingons look too different in this period.

THIS is the problem on top of everything else. I don’t have an issue with any of this. In fact even though I hate Discovery is a prequel and yet I defend it 90% of the time against complaints; mostly that the elements shown goes against its status as being a prequel. This is what gets frustrating. If people could just over look if they wore a certain insignia or that stuff is just going to look more advance in 2017 vs 1967 I would probably not care as much. But Trek fans are just too fickle and I’m afraid like Enterprise and the KT films if this show goes against the grain too much fans will simply reject it in the end.

Truthfully most of these ‘problems’ wouldn’t be issues at all in another time period but all we can do now is hope it will all work out. I’ll be watching either way.

Ok, now THAT looks like something a Klingon would wear lol.

I love how intricate and scary it looks.

You really have to respect the detail of the props etc thus far. Either prop making and costume making has got a lot cheaper or CBS and Netflix *really* support the show with a great budget. (Id assume the latter since they already extended the first season).

So far I have no liked the images of Discovery (the ship) but Im hoping the on-screen images are as detailed and fine looking, regardless of the overall design.

I guess you haven’t heard the discussions of budget, which were 6-7 million per episode. Which is up there. For comparison, I think GoT is one of the most expensive at around 9 mill per, along with Westworld at 8-10.

Excellent, thank you for informing me. I hadnt heard the budget. Considering this is a non-sponsor show (no commercials, or very few) that is a major outlay of cash. And to think they extended the first season. Fantastic.

This is an unmitigated disaster. At Dragon Con, the Bajoran Orb of Prophecy and Change revealed that the year 2255 bears a striking similarity to The Forbidden Planet & This Island Earth. These Klingons are much too fancy-pants to ever plausibly be from 2255 and that is why every day I die. I have ordered a scarf and a box set of Dr. Who because never again will I watch Star Trek, except for the one where Data is all “Masaka is coming … where is Korgano?”

Makes perfect sense.

Looks like crap!

Are you drunk?

That’s some Level 4 trollery, NGY, mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, there should be more scarves in Trek… oh, wasn’t that what you meant to say?
I like your comment nevertheless!

Enjoy DW. Great show. I mean, newer DW. Older DW is trash like TOS.

For every one of you choosing to not watch, there will be at least 2 or 3 of the younger generation that will be watching. They’re bona fide Star Trek fans too, and they deserve the kind of Star Trek that appeals to them. So if you don’t watch, that’s your choice. Don’t let the door hit you where the guardian of Forever split you.

The props look pretty good, the ships look okay (altho not appropriate to the era, just as the silly ENT ship was all wrong), the STD ship sets shown so far are just okay (but that Gong Show transporter set looks cheesy as hell), and the Discovery itself looks fine in the spirit of McQuarrie. BUT the Klingons (makeup, costumes, armor, etc.) truly look moronic and ill-advised. Oh, I’ll watch the pilot, just as I watch the pilots of most genre shows just to see what passes for TVSF these days, but that’s it. TOS was and is STAR TREK, while everything else made under the banner is a weak pretender.

*rolls eyes*

Reading your posts you make being a Star Trek fan so happy and fun. /sarcasm

You’re Star Trek was over in the 1960s. Seriously, most people under 60 years old has moved on long ago. Maybe instead of just moaning about it for another decade, just move on?

I think so-called fans like you would only be happy if someone created a carbon copy sequel to TOS. Including braindead scripts, spaceships on a string, pastel tinted visuals and overacting. While TOS might have been the start it is mostly shite. There are perhaps a handful of classic episodes that still hold up, perhaps ten if you count some others. That’s it. Go back to your cosy and safe space where you can bitch and whine about ‘canon’ while the rest of us, actual fans, are eagerly awaiting an actual new series. We hope this is a success, you ‘fans’ pray it fails.

The more I see, the more I like the grandness and epic scale. But also the more I feel, it’s not just a case of looking more advanced, the quality just looks better. I don’t feel there is any place in the star trek time line, where these changes could just be explained as it’s more advanced. Watching TNG in HD now and you can see how cheap alot of the sets really look. Not old fashioned, or unfuturistic, but just flimsy and kinda crap. Take all of the alien costumes, the romulans especially, it was budget that determined their crappy uniforms more than their culture, same with their pastel designed ship interiors in TNG. The point im slowly crawling to is, even if this was set post VOY, everything would still look uncomfortably hard to explain, better. Not because it looks more advanced, but because the quality is just better. Due to higher budget, better techniques and newer methods. The new klingon gear looks awesome.

I am happy and respect that Klingons are how they are trying to market this new show. However, that all aliens in Star Trek have UNIFORMS not clothes, or want to be naked is something that has bothered me for a long time. This is why I am hoping (against what I am seeing) that DSC will show another alien culture that the Federation is meeting for the first time. Put the budget in strange new worlds not just Klingons and their diversity.

Actually what I would give to see a “house” of Klingon nudists. haha. Not.

in my humble opinion this suit looks complex for the sake of complexity. but that’s of course just me.

I’m guessing most of it is supposed to be ornamental more than functional,but I am withholding judgement until i see the show.

The other images of the Klingons we have seen indicate a flare for the ornamental so that would be consistent.

Rather H.R. Giger-esque, I’d say.

Absoltely! Had the same thought. These new Klingons are right out of a Alien / Predator movie…I guess we can expect a full range of body horror in all shapes and sizes…

I’m sure that D’k tahg will have a low drop rate or take all my chronitons to build.

Interesting. First impression is that it’s way too busy with detail…it’s cluttered to the point of burying all the beautiful detail. Can’t see the trees for the forest. Not sure all this intricate detail is even worth what they are paying to have it created, especially considering we’ll probably only see fleeting glimpses of it on screen…probably in a very dark environment. Not exactly sure how you bring this to the screen to be appreciated in a practical way. Can’t exactly film a 3 minute fly-over ala the big E reveal in TMP. While I appreciate and respect the craftsmanship involved, I’m afraid I just don’t get it… other than they’re spending a lot of money on it just because they can. I can only hope there is as much effort committed to the writing.

Printing machines are not that expensive.

That’s the story of some of the most grand productions in existence. So much detail but you don’t see it on film. The sets and costumes have to have that quality. Think about Trek 6, there are labels you’ll never see but it’s all there and it goes a long way. And you don’t have to do a 3 minute fly over to show it. It’s just a part of the life of the show or film.

It looks kinda… nautical! What I mean is that’s in a kind of design aesthetic one might expect to crop up in Pirates of the Caribbean…

Also, that d’k tahg!! Something already known from canon – but in a completely new style! Make me curious about how the bat’leths will look like…

A nautical theme would fit in very well with Nick Meyer.

An incredible Klingon armored suit………

And you’re an incredible internet commenter…

HAHAHA why would this look upset the delicate masses? What about it screams post Nemesis? Nothing at all.

At first I was take back by the new look of the Klingons. Then it really got me thinking about all the cultures thru out earth’s history and how they are so different from one another. I remember discussions about how Klingons could not all be warriors (the same). It takes all different types to make up a society.

I wonder what event that was mentioned in Star Trek that is the basis for this show. What series was it from? I remember Spock in the “Search for Spock” viewing a Klingon Mummification glyph in his retraining.

Nice trivia about Spock (but it was from TVH), forgot about that…

Yes – The Voyage Home. Sorry about that. The Vulcan scenes of those two movies run together for me in my mind.

I remember in the TNG the Klingon warriors viewed dead bodies as empty shells. Based on that Spock’s “Klingon Mummification glyph” answer he gave its obvious that some Klingons had other beliefs. Maybe from a different time or different houses. Based on human’s differences we see all around us, Klingons maybe be just as diverse.

Can’t wait to find the answers.

It would be interesting if there are some in the Empire who are less warrior like and dont want to fight the Federation and others who do. I always found it weird that for the most part the Klingons were portrayed as this one defining race of warriors.

As other have said, its hard to fathom a technologically advanced society achieving such great success if they are all dumb, slobish heathens.

There is precedent for a less warrior segment of Klingon society, because there was the episode with Alexander (Worf’s son) who wanted to be a diplomat, and he was treated as somewhat of an outsider because of it, which tells me that there probably were people like that but they were generally treated with disdain. Mog (Worf’s father) was a bit like that as well, when we see him during the Kirk trial, although he’s a lot more combat-like in that context. I would imagine that they had to have a class of people who did trade and diplomacy with other races, especially when dealing with a civilization that they couldn’t easily immediately conquer.

I hear you, I think of WOK, SFS and TVH as one long (great) movie, myself.

Agreed, interesting new canon coming our way. Hoping the quality of the writing matches or exceeds that of the props and images we’ve seen thus far.

Looks at bit like 4LOM from a distance!

The detail is mind blowing. I don’t think we’ve ever seen a Klingon EV suit but this is totally what one would look like. Because at the end of the day they are warriors and conquerors. I can see Klingons concurring alien worlds with harsh environments in these suits. I would not want to stand face to with any Klingon is this EV suite though, zero G or not, good luck Commander Burnham.

…never really pictured anyone in the Klingon race as artisans. The Klingons I’m familiar with would not have such artsy-fartsy design and would see it as a fault, not to mention a complete waste of time. But this suit is loaded with detail, almost to a fault. I hope it’s simply an over the top ceremonial suit and not something commonly worn.

Seems unlikely to be something common considering they’ve called it the “Torchbearer.” Which begs the question, does the suit make the Torchbearer or does the Torchbearer wear the suit?

I’m actually loving this reimagining of the Klingons. Klingon episodes during the TNG-era almost universally bored me, they’re one-note. Hopefully these new Klingons are a bit more complex and textured.

I’m also excited to see this reimaging/expansion.

Its been well established that all Klingons are not of the warrior cast. It has also been establish that the Klingons have a rich and fully developed culture. They are not one dimensional.

They might have a rich and fully developed culture, but I don’t recall seeing much of it on the screen. Did any of the shows every actually explore the day-to-day life of a Klingon on Qo’noS? An episode exploring Klingon culture could actually be very interesting.

Mostly fan-mumbo jumbo. Not saying it can’t be interesting. I hope it is. But it could also be very stale if they don’t return the race to their conquering, ruthless roots. All that honor crap that they lited from the Romulans, and pinned it on the Klingons, in TNG, was a sad sad turn of events.

I feel that all of the Discovery props we’ve seen so far make those from the JJ-verse look almost amateurish by comparison. This is amazing!

Agreed. The JJ props are almost universally mediocre to bad. Considering how iconic the phaser, communicator, and tricorder have become, it’s weird how the movies didn’t do much of anything with them.

Love the new movie props. The phaser, communicator, and the tricorder, especially, is a very cool throwback to the original. I bought the toy and thought at the time, how sad that Spock didn’t use it.

The tricorder is, indeed, better than the others. The phaser and communicator both look like toys to me. The communicator fits in fairly well with the Apple Store design of that ridiculous bridge, I suppose.

Wow, that’s impressive. It looks like we might be diving pretty deep into Klingon lore. Just what I hoped.
I hope they’re just as ruthless as they were in TOS.

Were they ruthless in TOS? The stand-out memory I have of TOS Klingons is them laughing along with Kirk and Co. in order to defeat a threatening alien. ;-)

That same Klingon commander noted: “One man can cut four thousand throats in a single night, if he is continually running.” The best example of Klingon ruthlessness is Organia. This Klingon Empire was obviously in the conquest game with the installation of Klingon planetary governors that we not afraid to execute civilians to ensure order. Kor: “Today we conquer! Oh, if someday we are defeated… well… war has its fortunes. Good and bad.” His wife notes that they have to conquer systems to survive, etc. Also the antagonizer – Klingons were not afraid to engage in torture and brainwashing with advanced technology; was kind of surprised this was never picked on again (kind of like Romulan Plasma Torpedoes).

I always got the sense that the honor stuff in TNG was almost an over-compensation on the part of the Klingons. Like it was sort of political. New leadership came in with new ideas, such as friendly relations with the Federation and re-framed their species as violent, sure, but in an honourable way.

Sort of like how jerks always think they’re nice guys. Klingons think they’re way more honourable then they are.

Perhaps the honour thing is an ancient belief and the conquest-era leadership paid lip service but didnt really practice what they preached. By TNG (and a sense that the Federation had shown the honor the Klingons were supposed to be known for) they had embraced their more honorable traditions.

Klingons are interesting because they are often portrayed as a species you wouldnt think would be intelligent enough to be as advanced as they are and yet they DO have Klingon doctors, engineers, scientists etc. ive always thought the details on the Klingon/Romulan alliance in TOS would be interesting to see since they are so different.

Klingon ruthlessness was referred to in exposition only, or in off screen action. When tasked with dispatching a foe, good old fashioned bloodletting seemed preferable to just blasting someone…

While perhaps more elaborate, that armor definitely hearkens back to some actual decorative and samurai suits of armor I’ve seen in museums. Knights and Samurai and particular royalty would have decorative suits made – impractical for real fighting and tournaments but great at showing how rich and powerful you were.

Still won’t watch it

I guess that means the proud race of warriors 3D-prints their armor? Who would have thought.

Another site has more pics from where I think this is being displayed. There’s a lot of cool stuff . The starfleet communicator is the thing for me. To me it looks exactly like TOS. I like it. That has cultural cache to me.

I want to see a starfleet officer flip open a communicator and give an important life altering situation report.

In the first picture the suit appears to be made for a female. Notice the breast area appears larger on the left and right. I wonder if the torchbearer is the Klingon “Queen”? Or perhaps it’s a Klingon that is bred for this one specific duty…
My greatest hope is that the Klingon’s, and culture established in all the previous incarnations are not just thrown to the wayside.

@Guest — you can think anything you want about the Kelvin universe since nothing defines it in canon. Using Trek’s method of Time Travel, the Kelvin Universe is overwriting the Prime universe — simple as that, and there’s nothing in the movies to contradict that.

As for what Vulcans should look like — have you ever seen a copper-based humanoid? And why would their skin be green/yellow and they have pink lips? And how does one explain Tuvok? Shouldn’t they all look like Tuvok given the intensity of the sun on the planet, which explains darker skinned humanoids on our planet?

ive had this debate before but the “nothing precludes your belief” is sort of lame. Star Trek 2009 opened up in the Prime Universe, whether we like it or not, until something else on screen changes that fact.

Which means Pike’s age was retconned. If Pike appears in Discovery and is much younger, then its retconned again. Simply means an older actor was playing a younger role I guess.

Just my own speculation but I think the Torchbearer is female.