Review: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Flies Forward In Season 2 Finale “Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2”

“Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2”

Star Trek: Discovery Season 2, Episode 14 – Debuted Thursday, April 18th
Written by Michelle Paradise & Jenny Lumet & Alex Kurtzman
Directed by Olatunde Osunsanmi

SPOILER-FREE REVIEW

The second season of Discovery ends with a thrill ride of an episode, which (mostly) satisfactorily ties up mysteries of the season and the series, setting the show up for a bold new adventure.

“Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2” — Ep#214 — Pictured: Sonequa Martin-Green as Burnham

 

[WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW]

 

RECAP

A giant leap

The second part of “Such Sweet Sorrow” grabs the viewer right away with frantic edits, spinning cameras, people running down corridors, frenzied battle preparation, and little ships buzzing around, to reset the tone. The quiet moments from part one are behind us; this finale is going to be relentless. Captain Pike aboard the Enterprise expositions the stakes: The good guys are there to protect Michael Burnham from Leland and his Section 31 fleet so she can create a wormhole and save the future. Time is so tight the production even uses a split screen gimmick, with Pike leaving his soaring rhetoric behind to simply inspire with “this is Starfleet, get it done.” As for Saru, he goes with a classic, quoting ancient Chinese wisdom, to the surprise of Michelle Yeoh’s former Terran Emperor.

Tonight on BattleChat we have Commander Saru joining us, what is your view of Leland’s latest demands?

Adding some focus to the battle is the reveal that the only life form in the Section 31 fleet is Leland, who has been taken over by Control. So even though Control had shown the ability to assimilate possess others, the evil AI is keeping it tight for the finale. However, Leland’s fleet launches its own blizzard of drones, greatly outnumbering the mini-armada of over 200 small craft the Discovery and Enterprise have been able to muster.

After the opening credits roll, the shooting starts with a flurry of phasers, photons, and drones that really doesn’t let up all episode long. It’s hard to keep track of what is going on with consoles exploding and ships firing at anything that moves, but that is entirely the point. The teams creating practical effects on set and stunning visual effects of the battle are to be commended for the glorious chaos they throw at the audience.

Three are some ships in there somewhere behind all the explosions

Bringing a little bit of order to things is Tilly’s friend Po, who has borrowed a shuttle (without asking, because she is a Queen) and thrusts herself into the fray. Using her engineering insights, she has a plan to take on Leland’s drones to help even the odds a little. But the ticking clock in the form of shield power remaining on the Discovery continues to tick down as a team hurriedly assembles a Red Angel suit for Michael. Luckily Reno survived what was touted as an ordeal with the time crystal at the end of part one, emerging unscathed and even having time to deliver some trademark sass, telling Saru, “Get off my ass, sir.” It’s great to see Tig Notaro return, but after all that build up in part one, she seems to have gotten off a bit too easy here.

Someone who didn’t get off easy was Lt. Cmdr. Stamets, who was severely injured as the team made the final assembly of the Red Angel suit while transferring it to the shuttle bay. Paul is sent to sickbay, which is in disarray as the medical staff struggles to triage the casualties. Raven Dauda ably returns as Dr. Pollard and adds some more nuance to her character as she makes it clear she is not happy that the skeleton crew remaining on Disco is taking a beating and some of them are not going to make it. They are paying the price as Michael Red Angels up and exits the ship, with Spock piloting a shuttle escort. Throughout this first act, the actors, effects, and music maintain a palpable tension, with determined pacing by director Olatunde Osunsanmi that all makes us feel like we are joining Michael on her great leap into this battle.

Hey guys, let’s buzz the bridge window and give ’em a scare

Fight club

If you were paying close attention during all that frenzy you would have noted that the Discovery had to drop her shields for Michael to leap out of the ship, and so it shouldn’t be shocking when the AI-in-a-Leland-suit waltzes onto the bridge to duck into the science lab to get that sphere data, which is the MacGuffin this battle is nominally all about. Georgiou and Nhan are tasked with prying him out of the lab before he can get what he wants as the battle continues to rage. Michelle Yeoh and Rachael Ancheril show a fast chemistry as the pair indulges in some very un-Starfleet-like sadistic banter.

Fate continues to slap Burnham around when even at a safe distance, she seems incapable of setting a course into the future. In classic Trek moments turned up to 11 we see characters throwing themselves around the two bridges with sparks flying…an astounding amount of sparks flying. The battle is going badly and just as she saw in her vision, a photon torpedo gets lodged in the saucer of the Enterprise. The Discovery also has its own problem with damaged shield emitters, negating the possibility of following Burnham into a wormhole. The plan to change this future isn’t working.

With the battle looking lost, the good guys needed a miracle, and it arrived in the form of a Klingon Cleave ship escorted by Ba’ul fighters piloted by Kelpiens, including Saru’s sister who got his goodbye letter from part one and wasn’t about to let her brother go into a fight alone. These post-vahar’ai Kelpiens have really put their fear behind them, and we can only hope they got their fighters through Kaminar cooperation and not as the result of a brutal Ba’ul brunch. The Klingons are here thanks to Tyler—who left at the end of part one—and led by Chancellor L’Rell who makes it clear she and her fleet of shiny new D-7s aren’t there to make friends, but for the glory of the Empire. Fair enough. Apparently, L’Rell’s crew are more interested in a good fight than questioning why the guy she said she killed for being a Federation spy showed up asking for help for the Federation.

Just the right amount of tlhIngan Hol

The appearance of the new allies sparks a light bulb for Spock, who has been binge-watching season two and now sees how everything has been leading up to this moment. Earlier he told Michael, “It’s your mother and it’s you, trust what you’ve done together,” making clear that they were both the Red Angel all along. Mom Angel may have been the one who showed up at key moments of Michael and Spock’s life, but it was Michael Angel who was responsible for the five signals, each of which was the key to an element needed to win the battle.

Plot twist: Before she can go forward in time, she has to predestination paradox her way into the past to light off those five red bursts. In one of a number of moments that works if you don’t think about it too hard (like wondering why the time crystal didn’t burn itself out in one jump), it is explained that she has to close the “open loop” and in so doing it will prevent Control from evolving. And bringing back the theme for the season, Michael notes Spock is asking her to take a leap of faith, which he says is “only logical.” As for the future, he assures us it is still unwritten. Isn’t time travel fun?

In some beautiful sequences that borrow from Interstellar, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Michael travels through time as the Red Angel on a trip through a memory lane of the five previous signals. The whole season comes into focus, with visits to the asteroid where they found Reno, Terralysium, Kaminar, Boreth, and Xahea. Once returned to the now of the battle, Michael is finally able to set a course for the future, where she plans to ignite the sixth signal for the Discovery to follow like a beacon of hope.

My god, it’s full of sparks

Time to go

While Michael is montaging through the past, various other characters are each given tasks to complete. Tilly’s job involves tackling some busywork to get the shields back up while babbling. She gets the job done Scotty-style, shimmying into a vertical Jefferies Tube. Mary Wiseman does a fine job providing comic relief with talk of blind-folded drinking games; however, it is just another in a series of disappointing moments for Tilly in the latter half of season two, where the character seems to have become a caricature with little arc and no ability here to really show off what are supposed to be her considerable smarts. It all felt like an afterthought when someone realized they hadn’t given Tilly anything to do.

A much more satisfying resolution involves the appearance of Dr. Hugh Culber, who returns from the USS Enterprise to help out in sickbay, and personal treat Stamets. Before putting him in a medicated coma, Hugh reveals that he has realized that Paul is his home. He is done dealing with resurrection issues, and ready to love and take care of Paul. In a tear-worthy and entirely earned scene, Wilson Cruz does a great job of giving the action a break and reminding us of the theme of family for the season, and what this fight is all about.

Dying? That is so last year.

Number One and Admiral Cornwell’s job is to take care of that unexploded torpedo stuck in the Enterprise hull. In a classic scene, they run through all the various technical scenarios to try to diffuse it before it destroys half the ship. As things get even more tense, Captain Pike swaps spots with Number One. Eventually they realize the only way to save the ship is for someone to stay with the bomb and close an emergency bulkhead manually. Pike gets metaphysical when he ponders that if he has seen his fate, he should be the one to do it as this torpedo can’t be the thing that takes him out, but he is outranked by the Admiral who isn’t ready to take that chance. Sadly, Katrina Cornwell has to sacrifice herself. We may have seen this kind of thing before, and it’s now clear she was only introduced in part one so that part two can give up an offering to the story gods that demand realized stakes, but Jayne Brook plays it well, and the loss is truly felt.

Glass windows on starships should come with a warning label for likely heroic death

Before Burnham can leave to guide the Discovery into the future Spock reveals—as expected due to canon—that he cannot return to the Discovery. Reluctantly, these once estranged siblings now have to say goodbye and their arc comes to a close in a beautiful reconciliation. Even with Spock seated in a shuttle and Michael outside on the floating hulk of a Section 31 ship, Ethan Peck and Sonequa Martin-Green evoke deep emotion through their chemistry. He is not ready to say goodbye as he feels he needs her to maintain the fragile balance of his competing natures, Human and Vulcan. She helps prepare her little brother for the future with the “last advice” she will ever give him, telling him to allow others to reach him. We can envision his future friends—especially a certain James T. Kirk—when she implores him to “find that person who seems farthest from you, and reach for them.” Part one of this finale packed a gaggle of goodbyes into it to let part two have this moment, this ultimate goodbye for Michael, giving the ultimate meaning to her relationship with Spock. And to tie a bow onto the season, she promises that she will send the seventh—and last—signal back in time, to let him know she is going to be okay.

Seriously, was there a sale at the sparks store?

Georgiou is focused on dealing with Leland—or as she prefers to refer to him, the “AI meat sausage.” She has hidden the sphere data and Leland 2.0 is not taking it well, constantly demanding it for it to be handed over with an obsession not seen since Johnny the paperboy in Better Off Dead wanted this two dollars, plus tip. This all leads to an elongated—and not very satisfying—sequence of gunplay and old-fashioned fisticuffs. On a technical level, the stunt work and what looks like Inception-like fight in a gravity rotating corridor was quite exceptional, but taking down a rogue AI with a physical fight just seems out of place and not very Star Trek. Her final move was to use the same floor-magnetizing trick Spock used on the Controlified Kamran Gant in “Through the Valley of Shadows,” bringing a surprisingly easy final end to Control. (I guess he really needed that sphere data to be smart enough to not fall for the same trick twice.)

I can’t believe I fell for this, again.

With Lelandbot defeated, the Section 31 fleet dies with him, leaving the path clear for Michael to light up the sky and ascend like a true angel. Before anyone asks why they are still escaping into the future to hide from an enemy they just destroyed, Discovery follows Michael into a wormhole and that’s a wrap for them in the 23rd century.

Did I hear that Control is dead? Where are the brakes on this thing?

The first rule of Discovery Club…

With the battle over and the Discovery completing her mission to escape from the TOS era, the episode continues with a sort of coda. It’s been 124 days since the battle and the surviving characters are being debriefed at Starfleet HQ. When asked about the detection of a quantum singularity (aka the wormhole that the Disco used to leave) they are all doing their best impression of Johnny Tightlips and weaving a story about how the USS Discovery was destroyed due to a catastrophic failure of the spore drive.

Section 31 is going to get a “radical overhaul” with more transparency, with Ash Tyler named the new head. Starfleet feels his unique perspective (cough—he’s actually a Klingon—cough) make him uniquely suited to the “dualities” required to run Section 31. As for Control, it is stated to have been completely destroyed.

We have ways of making you talk; first, the comfy chair

The big moment for this postscript comes from a suggestion from Mr. Spock himself, offering a “radical” solution to ensure others do not learn of the time-traveling Red Angel suit, sphere data, and spore drive technology for fear it may affect historical events. All those with knowledge of the Discovery, the spore drive, and the crew will be ordered to never speak of such things, ever. In a personal log, Spock reveals that all of the deception was to ensure the sacrifice of Michael and the Discovery crew had meaning. He even pledges to never speak of Michael with his own parents in the presence of others. And that, my friends, is how the adventures of the USS Discovery will remain part of Trek history, yet never be discussed again.

Hipster no more

The last minutes of the finale are given over to the now repaired USS Enterprise to exit dry dock. Spock—now finally a bit more at peace with himself—shaves his beard, cuts his hair, and dons his classic look in blue science uniform to join Captain Pike and Number One on the bridge. The episode and the season end on the USS Enterprise with the detection of Michael’s seventh signal 51,000 light-years away in the Beta Quadrant, indicating that she and the Discovery crew got to their destination—at least in terms of space, if not time. Besides logging the anomaly, the ship takes no action—remember the USS Discovery is officially destroyed, so best to not look any closer. They casually warp off, taking the repaired Enterprise for “a spin” to check out a new moon around an alien planet, leaving the red burst longingly alone and distant and entirely a mystery to possibly be explored in another season.

Wait, don’t go

ANALYSIS

Mysteries solved

The second season of Star Trek: Discovery avoided the first season’s obsession with secrets and surprises, offering instead a grand mystery tied into the seven signals and the Red Angel. Much of this galactic whodunit was resolved before we even got to the two-part finale, and mostly satisfactorily. This final episode tied the last bits of how the Red Angel and the bursts worked together, creating an extra layer of poetry to the whole season. For the most part, it even makes sense, and served well as the mechanism to make changes in the show, including the ultimate “fix” here in the season finale (more on that later).

What hasn’t been satisfying is the Big Bad for this season. Previous reviews have already covered the lack of depth and nuance to Control. Any hopes that this finale would make the AI antagonist more interesting were punched and kicked to death by Michelle Yeoh through no fault of her own. It was never clear how or why Control turned on the Federation or even why it needed the sphere data to kill everyone. Unlike a good villain, Control never revealed anything interesting about our heroes, especially Michael Burnham. And the way it was defeated was entirely unsatisfying. This is Star Trek and the solution to a cautionary tale about technology run amok should have involved our characters using their brains, not their brawn. Think Captain Kirk talking a computer to death and now you have something. Alas. Even more of a headscratcher, once Control was defeated, why did they continue with the plan to go into the future, which (in-universe) was only to escape Control?

The battle itself that flowed through this episode was an adrenaline rush and served well to keep you on the edge. This episode likely featured the longest-running battle in Star Trek history, filled with heroic moments for ships and crew alike. The inclusion of the squadrons of little support ships was something new for Trek, but makes perfect sense and helped add some dynamism. It would have been nice to see some good strategy played out, with the best moment actually given to Po and not one of our two commanding officers. Having the Klingons and the Kelpiens be the last-minute reinforcements provided a nice tie-in to our characters and the season as a whole, but it still seems strange that there were no other Starfleet ships mustered up for help, with both Tyler and Sarek aware of the battle.

As for the themes of the season, this episode very much paid off the recurring theme of family. We saw this in big moments like with Stamets and Culber or Burnham and Spock, but also in quieter smaller bits, such as Reno sassing Saru in a way only good friends and family can do. We believe in and cherish the bond that these people have together. The writing and the acting have come together so we feel it as they say goodbye to each other or lose someone. When it comes to the other purported theme of science versus faith, for the most part this seems to have been given scant attention in the latter half of the season, possibly due to the change in showrunners. This finale continues the trend, but it’s actually no great loss as the other theme and story arcs deliver enough.

That ship is compensating for something

‘N Sync

So, we finally have the promised answer as to how Discovery will come into sync with canon. The titular ship, along with Michael Burnham, left the 23rd century to an unknown fate, and everyone collectively decided to gaslight the universe and pretend it was destroyed and will never speak of it again. This is a variation on the solution the show used to make the visit to the Mirror Universe classified, allowing it to still be a surprise to Kirk a decade later. Does this explain why Spock never mentioned his sister Michael again—at least as seen in Trek? Sure. He never mentioned Sybok until he showed up, and it looks like Michael may not be dropping by again.

What about the spore drive, something that could have proved useful, especially to the USS Voyager after being stranded in the Delta Quadrant? Well this one is a bit harder, but if you don’t think too much about it, you can imagine that the technology was abandoned as being both too dangerous as well as impossible to master without the expertise of Stamets and the tardigrade DNA, which we will have to assume was only available on the Discovery.

One area of canon sync that wasn’t addressed and may have been exacerbated is the history of the Klingons. The first season showed a Klingon War that seemed pretty devastating, only to never be mentioned again. The second season has flipped the script to show a level of cooperation with the Klingons that doesn’t seem to mesh with the Cold War-era foes that will dominate the TOS era until a detente in Star Trek VI.

In the end, what the show has done is come up with a way to keep the adventures of the USS Discovery and its crew as part of Star Trek canon, yet at the same time erase—or at least suppress them—from official Starfleet history. Like many things about Discovery, this works as long as you don’t think too much about it. The solution could surely be nitpicked, but it is probably better for fans of the show than truly erasing Discovery from the Prime universe via a “Yesterday’s Enterprise” type of pocket universe rewrite.

But the bigger question perhaps is, was this entirely necessary? The second season can be seen as a series of course corrections for the show, both big and small. This final act of moving the show to a new place—and more importantly—time, is a radical solution to resolve the perceived issues of canon sync.

While a new setting will likely free up the show to explore new worlds without the constraints given being set so close to TOS, it still could be considered an over-correction. Discovery was truly making a place for itself in its second season, and then it up and leaves for other pastures. On one hand, it could be seen as the abandoning yet another element of co-creator Bryan Fuller’s vision for the show. However, in a way, it embraces another concept of Fuller’s rejected-by-CBS plan for an anthology series with each season set in a different Star Trek era.

One thing is for sure: After all the turnover and changes in the show, the creatives have now set the stage to tell their Star Trek stories with a free hand. Season 3 awaits. Godspeed to all of them.

This looks familiar

Who shot the red burst?

The final moments of this episode were somewhat curious. While the scenes at Starfleet HQ were a clever way to sweep canon issues under the deck plating, and having a moment to see Pike, Spock and the Enterprise head out of dry dock was cool, it still feels like something was missing. Anson Mount and Ethan Peck—and their beautiful ship—certainly deserved to have a nice moment to warp off into the sunset. However, if you didn’t know that CBS was already at work on the third season of the show set on the USS Discovery, you would imagine this ending as a sort of series finale for the Discovery, and the handing of the keys over to new adventures on board the USS Enterprise.

The creators want to create a new big mystery about the fate of Michael Burnham and the USS Discovery. What happened to Disco after going through that wormhole? The only clue we have is the appearance of the seventh red burst emanating from the Beta Quadrant, presumably sparked by Michael popping back to the 23rd century for her final goodbye to Spock.

It just felt incomplete as a cliffhanger. Why did they not simply zoom in on the red burst and show something of the USS Discovery or Michael? It didn’t need to be much, but something to show that the 23rd century and the crew of the Enterprise have been left behind for further adventures with Michael and the Discovery crew in this new mysterious place, wherever and whenever that is. If you want to create a “Who shot J.R.?” moment, you shouldn’t forget to show the proverbial shot.

If you squint you can see Michael waving

Out with a bang

Overall “Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2” was a thrill ride of an episode with the heart and soul of Star Trek. It built on the improvements seen throughout the second season, and satisfactorily tied up the story and character arcs and themes that have been building up since “Brother.” Showrunners and co-writers Alex Kurtzman and Michelle Paradise impressed with how they closed out the season with this two-parter that adds up to an epic finale with a good mix of high-octane action and heartfelt character moments, with perhaps a bit too much padding to fill up two episodes using what may have started with 1.5 episodes of material. There were head-scratcher moments peppered throughout, but with the relentless action and emotional character beats, they are easily forgotten, especially on a first viewing.

Everyone was at the top of their game, starting with the cast. Much of the heavy lifting was done by Sonequa Martin-Green and Ethan Peck as they resolved the arc of Michael and Spock. Honorable mentions are due to Jayne Brook offering up Cornwell’s sacrifice, and Anson Mount elevating Pike even more for one last hurrah. Everyone working behind the scenes deserves kudos with special appreciation to the visual effects team, who look to have clocked a lot of sleepless nights delivering more hot ship-on-ship action than seen in any episode and even some feature films.

The episode also worked on a different level, acting as a sort of finale to the first two seasons of the show, including creating callbacks like Michael playing a key role in a space suit in the series opener, and the return of the Klingon Cleave ship. These all helped as they closed a chapter for the show in the 23rd century and set course for an unknown future in season three. Michael’s arc with Spock is complete, and with the Red Angel mystery solved, it feels okay to let go of the past and move into this future imbued with the hope and optimism that are what Star Trek is all about.

Hey Reno, should my suit be leaking all this red stuff?

Random thoughts, connections, easter eggs, and more

  • At 1 hour and 5 minutes, this is the longest episode of the series.
  • Part 2 of “Such Sweet Sorrow” shares the same writers and director as Part 1.
  • The Stardate given at the end of the episode was 1201.7.
  • Once again an alien on Discovery references ancient Earth wisdom, when Saru quotes Sun Tzu’s classic The Art of War.
  • Both the Discovery and the Enterprise deployed traditional phaser beams during the battle. Past episodes have mostly shown the USS Discovery using the phaser ‘bolts’ like those seen in the J.J. Abrams Trek films, which were also used during the battle.
  • It was estimated Michael would need 2 minutes and 47 seconds to reach a safe distance, another in Trek’s long line of uses of the number 47.
  • One of the new features shown for the USS Enterprise were Wall-E style repair drones named DOT-7s, which can be deployed on the hull.
  • We see the bridge of the Klingon Cleave ship for the first time, which seemed to have a more traditional style.
  • This episode features Discovery’s first visit to San Francisco, the home of Starfleet Headquarters featured in many Trek previous series and films.
  • It was implied that Section 31 was under Admiral Cornwell’s command as Ash Tyler was named commander in light of the “loss of Admiral Cornwell and Captain Georgiou.”
  • Spock cites Regulation 157, Section 3 (which was first used in DS9: “Trials and Tribble-ations”) when offering his radical solution to suppress all mention of the Spore Drive and Michael Burnham from Starfleet records.
  • Spock’s paraphrasing of “an Earth physicist” was a quote from Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
  • In addition to Tyler, Spock and the Enterprise crew, others that survived the battle and remained behind in the 23rd century include Siranna, Po and L’Rell.
  • With Georgiou onboard the Discovery as it traveled through the wormhole, it’s not clear how the potential Section 31 series would work, would it be set in the 23rd century, or the far future, or both?
  • [UPDATED] Number One’s true name was revealed by Captain Pike as “Una,” the name previously she had in (non-canon) Star Trek novels. Pike says: “report back to the bridge, I’m giving you the conn Una.” However, CBS All Access Closed Caption (which are known to sometimes be inaccurate) didn’t show her name at all and Netflix Closed Captioning has it as “Noona,” but it appears to be in error.

DOT-7

Starfleet HQ

Ba’ul fighter


Star Trek: Discovery is available exclusively in the USA on CBS All Access. It airs in Canada on Space and streams on CraveTV. It is available on Netflix everywhere else.

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Professor Spock

This episode answered a lot of questions. What happens to Discovery in the future remains to be seen. I love how it ends with Spock and Pike back at the Enterprise as if nothing happened at all. Everything is normal now. It was all over the place. I was confused the entire time. It was a good way to end the season. Season 3 here we come! The longer runtime helped a lot. This was Star Wars in a good way with Star Trek goodness.

Tiger2

PS, didn’t you make some big deal a few weeks ago you weren’t going to see the last episodes because you were cancelling AA and wait to watch until the Picard show started? I’m just going to say it, you’re an odd fellow. But glad you watched it after all.

J.L.J.

My wife and I said the ending felt like a launching point for a series on the Enterprise. It totally felt like a great setup. Granted it wasn’t meant that way, but one can hope it proves prophetic!

DaveCGN

I had the same impression! It felt like a series finale for DSC, a crossover with “New-TOS” and a pilot for a Pike-series. Made like a movie for the big screen!
I wouldn’t be surprised if they announce a Pike series soon.

Everything about that is a letter of intent to make one. No guarantee one actually will be made, of course; but it’s the inescapable conclusion.

Garth Lorca

Agreed. The entire end of the episode felt so much like a transition to NuTOS, Discovery ended as a red spot in the future, the focus was entirely on Pike, Spock and Number One. If they don’t make that series, it would be an awful waste of potential.

Corinthian7

I’m hoping we might hear something at the Vegas con. Both Mount and Peck are booked as guests.

“This episode answered a lot of questions.” “I was confused the entire time.”

Sir, I am going to have to insist that you put forth at least a small effort to make sense.

tacotuesday

I didn’t find it confusing at all.

Legate Damar

This was, by far, the craziest space fight in the entire franchise. Its kind of weird that we never saw those hundreds of battle shuttles on the Enterprise in any other episodes, but it was just so cool that I don’t even care.

Professor Spock

The space battle had a Star Wars vibe to it. I’m surprised the Klingons showed up to help them. I didn’t expect that.

Garth Lorca

I expected the Klingons to show ever since Tyler left in the previous episode. But the one thing I disliked is that the Cleave ship got the big surprise entrance instead of the D7! Some D7s showed up later on but in a rather unimpressive way. The Cleave entrance should have been the D7’s big reveal dramtically speaking. A missed opportunity.

PEB

I wouldn’t say Star Wars. It felt in line with what you could see in DS9

Thorny

I expected Tyler and L’Rell, but not the Kelpians.

Jack F.

I was picking up some Battlestar Galactica vibes, too (Discovery/Enterprise/shuttles = Galactica/Pegasus/Vipers). Jaw-dropping stuff, and when the Klingons saved the day replete with a “Today is a good day to die!” I involuntarily and joyfully pumped my fist in the air and yelled a colorful metaphor. What a great ending to a great season!

ML31

I totally expected the Klingons to show. The surprise was the Ba’ul ships.

UAB

Yeah, that battle was possibly the grandest, prettiest, most intense one in the whole franchise. I’m still sad they drifted away from the more methodical, surgical naval battle feel of Trek that was – for the dog fighting, Star Wars battles instead.

But still, that battle was SPECTACULAR.

Garth Lorca

“Its kind of weird that we never saw those hundreds of battle shuttles on the Enterprise in any other episodes…”

More than just weird. This represents a major continuity breach of epic proportions. Compared to that, the Spore Drive was a minor footnote issue.

I always wanted Trek to have smaller fighter squadrons like Star Wars or BSG, but their introduction should make some sense canonically. Inbetween The Cage and TOS, that’s an odd spot in history to introduce attack squadrons aboard the ENTERPRISE. Different starship typres like Spacecraft Carriers could have worked, even if we hadn’t seen them before. But we’re talking about THE Enterprise here, and that ship never had fighter squads.

Maybe that’s part of those “creative conversations” Mount would want to have with the producers before signing up for his spin-off show.

tony

number one specifically said she’d appropriated some experimental fighters for this battle last episode. they’re not normally on the ship.

Locutus

Thank makes some sense. They seemed pretty effective though, so I’d expect something similar to come into play elsewhere in the franchise. Oh well, didn’t ruin the episode and made for an epic battle, but I agree it seemed out of place.

ML31

I agree. It did not detract from the episode. But it did feel out of place for Star Trek.

Spiked Canon

it is explained, as always, by stating just because you never saw, it doesn’t mean it didn’t exist

blackmocco

Golden rule of good writing #1: Show, don’t tell.

Mantastic

I’m really curious as to how they were able to fit all those shuttles and fighters between those two ships’ shuttle bays. Discovery has a massive one, but the Enterprise’s is dinky.

Like the OP said though, I don’t care. That was one of the most epic space battles ever filmed and it blew my damn mind. Bonus points for shields actually mattering in a fight too.

CERO

I’m pretty sure the size of both shuttlebays in volume is the same. the only difference is how its shaped.
In Discovery, because of its flat and elongated nacelles .. the shuttlebay is horizontal, with not much depth.
In Enterprise it seems to be horizontal but parallel to the nacelles.. aka narrower but longer.

And these “bugs” have the size of torpedos. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they could fit that many.

The interesting part is that the Enterprise amount of shuttles was pretty much correct.
I never seen more than 10 shuttles of the Enterprise type during this battle.
plus the 4 usual ones from Discovery.

Trellium G

I’m feeling a bit betrayed for sticking with Discovery. It seems the entire concept of the show is changing. I enjoyed it as it was, in the 23rd century. I’ll give season 3 a chance, but I am not happy with the bait and switch. I enjoyed having Star Trek back in the 23rd century and it was the reason why I was watching.

I really hope there are plans for a Pike show in the 23rd century to replace the loss of Discovery as a series set in that era.

I agree with the recap. It was definitely an “over correction” to erase Discovery from history.

Tiger2

As someone who HATED the time period they put Discovery in on day one and happy to see the ship thrown into the future, I oddly have to agree with you. What’s funny is they were finally winning me over about the whole crazy tech stuff and slowly aligning with the 23rd century period. I mean much of it still makes little to no sense but I was finally accepting the show should stay in this era (after saying over and over again early on it should be in a post 25th century era). But its still just a TV show, I think more people were accepting it but I guess not enough?

But you have to give them credit, for people who kept saying they don’t listen to the fans, boy did they really prove that theory wrong lol. It still may not be a better show and a lot of DIS issues wasn’t just visual or Spock having a sister, it was more basic than that and that was bland to bad story telling.

And they aren’t abandoning the 23rd century. We know the Section 31 show is coming (or maybe in another century now???) and yes there could be something for Pike in the future. I have a feeling they want to have different shows in different eras to spice things up a bit. So Section 31/Pike possibly in the 23rd century, Picard in the post TNG 25th century era and Discovery in the 33rd century??? Whevever, the point is they are spreading this franchise out in ways I would’ve have predicted a year ago and here we are.

Trellium G

Well I hope they never get into any space battles so far ahead in the future with their ancient technology. Unless there is a severe regression of tech in the future that doesn’t make the concept seem so silly.

UAB

They could get an upgrade from someone/somewhere. Maybe.

Trellium G

Well we know Discovery gets abandoned in the future, so maybe they get a new ship in the future. Unless Calypso never happens now that the crew went to the future with the ship.

I’m happy for the people that wanted a show set so far ahead in the future. I’m not happy that they couldn’t make a show from scratch for those fans and basically killed the show I liked to do it.

Spiked Canon

I believe Calypso was made with the knowledge they go to the future. The arc of the season was created backward so they knew all along it was going to happen.

A34

In Calypso the ship is waiting for the crew to return. The ship isn’t abandoned.

Corinthian7

Possibly something happens that sends Discovery back in time. The Emperor goes back with it and then has to hide it for the Discovery crew to find it in the 33rd century and of course free herself up for a starring role in the Section 31 series. A possible motivation for sending Discovery back might be whatever threat they encounter in the future. Presumably it completely outclasses 23rd century tech but maybe they detect the emergence of the AI personality and need to send it back in time to evolve sufficiently in order to be competitive against a 33rd century nemesis .

Tiger2

Yes! I too have a feeling Discovery is going to get some MAJOR upgrades in the future…literally lol.

They probably will either join a future Federation or even be part of a new alliance completely. Its the future, it could literally be anything!!

Ensign Crusher

I suspect the sphere data will bring them the upgrades they need.

DaveCGN

I’d say the Leland story is not over yet! What happened with the Leland-nanobots? He was destroyed on the DSC, so the nanobots also made it into the future, which made the whole idea of going into the future unnecessary, didn’t it?
I have a theory that the “leftover” of the nanobots, the red angel suit and the sphere data will be the cause of the events in season 2: sending data back from the future into the 23rd century, thus creating a timeloop.
I’m surprised that the writers didn’t take care of that. Or did they?

Jay

Yes. Indeed! Also, Admiral Cornwell, before saying good bye, nobody noticed the scratchy voice? I thought it was Control!

Fred Javelina

I think that is Jayne Brooks’ normal voice. I had noticed it in previous episodes.

Spiked Canon

Isn’t Leland in the spore drive or did i miss something?

Thorny

He was disassembled into lots of little nanites.

DaveCGN

Yes, but the nanites were taken into the future and thus still exist!

CERO

It could also link the whole part where one of the red angel appearances DID bring the future code required to activate CONTROL into the evil being.
It was like a necessary loop.

ML31

We have to remember… They supposedly went to the future but they do have a time suit and would undoubtedly gain the ability to go anywhere in any time they wish. Discovery would easily turn into Dr. Who.

Hauke Fischer

IF they are at Terralysium 950 years in the future that colony would likely be a LOT bigger, perhaps even space-faring.

Garth Lorca

Unless they send Georgiou back in time again, the Section 31 series must be set in the 33rd century…

I know, this sounds bonkers… Imagine someone speaking out loud the following sentence five years ago:
“Okay, let’s make a 33rd century Section 31 series revolving around an evil character from the 23rd century mirror universe.” It’s even a whole lot crazier than “Spock’s sister Michael”…

Trellium G

Yeah it is bonkers. Like bringing someone from 1000 years ago to the present to run the CIA. They would be way behind the times and be spending their entire lifetime immersed in catch-up learning before they were competent enough to participate in their new future surroundings.

Garth Lorca

Aren’t there plans for an official Gladiator 2 that has Russel Crow’s character ending up in the Pentagon? Sounds a tad like that :-)

Spiked Canon

If that is the case Tyler would’ve remained on board

Michael Hall

There are many things going on now that I would have thought bonkers five years ago. . .

Corinthian7

It will be interesting to see which way they go with Discovery – send Giorgiou back in time or have it be set in the 33rd century. My current theory follows the current fad for linking everything to Calypso lol. I think that they’ll encounter an enemy that 23rd century tech simply cannot compete against and in a separate thread the AI personality on the ship will start to manifest itself. Eventually a plan will be hatched to send the ship back in time to evolve the tech/mature its personality and the emperor will volunteer to pilot it back and hide it in the nebula.

Tiger2

Wow that would be interesting! I think the all possibilities are open now. And to be honest we don’t even know Zora was in the 33rd century. They never said what century the ship was in so she could’ve been in the 43rd century for all we know. But yes its exciting, it really does set up a lot of interesting avenues going forward.

Corinthian7

Thanks Tiger and obviously we’ve discussed this as well in the other topic but yeah I’m completely open to multIple possibilities. I mean we don’t even know how long they’re going to stay in the 33rd century. Like you say they could be setting the stage for another 1000 year jump, or maybe they’ll have to go back to another unexplored time period. I think we’re both in agreement that they’ll be likely be staying clear of anything pre Nemesis but it’s pretty much all bets are off for anything else. It’s certainly an exciting time to be a Trek fan.

Soren

Pike is a no brainer. If they don’t do it now they’re insane

Wheelie

After two seasons, it seems like they may have finally settled on a concept for the series. I mean, besides nostalgic shoutouts to TOS. But better late than never. Good on them for taking the “Voyager” leap (but with time travel).

Kevin

but Voyager was trying to get home, will they try to get back to the 23rd century?

Tiger2

Good point! It sounds like they all accepted their fates and plan to just live out their lives in the future. Everyone treated it as a one way mission so I don’t think they have a plan to get back home. It doesn’t mean they can’t change their mind later though I guess.

DaveCGN

They still have the sphere data, the red angel suit and the leftover of the Leland-nanobots. What if some crew-member goes nuts and using that tech to get back in time? And in the end causing the events?

ML31

From my point of view, there is nothing preventing them from coming back. Sure their (sigh) time crystal only allowed for the one trip but in the future there ought to be sufficient tech to substitute for it. This feels like it just opened up a can of worms. But I do like that they are out of the 23rd century. Their version “visual updates” never felt right.

Wheelie

Right, I should’ve said a twist on Voyager. What do you do if you CAN’T go back home? Find a new one.

Spiked Canon

they don’t want to fo back, they don’t want control to get the sphere data. they don’t know control died

Corinthian7

I wouldn’t have thought so Kevin. The whole point of faking there deaths and hiding Discovery in the future was to hide the sphere data to stop Control happening again.

Matthew Boesch

everytime i hear leap in scifi i think of Quantum Leap.

Wheelie

And every time I see the words ‘Quantum Leap’ I start humming the theme. :-)

Corinthian7

And now you’ve got it stuck in my head… Oh boy.

Garth Lorca

It’s more like a twist on SeaQuest Season 3, only with more time inbetween the two eras.

One of the problems I already have with the 33rd century setting is that it’s wasting a lot of potential for future Star Trek incarnations.

I already had my issues with TNG being set 100 years into the future. It should have been 30 years after the TOS movies, a true “next generation”, not “the next century” (as the series is actually called in Germany). Why? Because it’s already hard to predict technological progress within a few decades. It’s impossible to handle a hundred years’ development, let alone a thousand years now.

TNG already looks dated 30 years after its launch from our 2019 POV! DISCO Season 3 is in danger of looking dated in 2050 as well… Anything post 25th century should be developed along the way.

But then, it IS possible to visually update stuff and retrofit certain eras… visually it worked with the new NCC-1701 quite well. So maybe it’s just about getting used to the issue of visual rebooting altogether.

Wheelie

If I could remember anything about SeaQuest beyond the talking dolphin, I’m sure I would agree with you.

Can’t say I’m worried about what people in 2050 will think about, well, any topic. Aside from climate change.

Spiked Canon

I am sad we won’t get the chance to see some iconic TOS villains, Garth etc.

Just Another Salt Vampire

“Even more of a headscratcher, once Control was defeated, why did they continue with the plan to go into the future, which (in-universe) was only to escape Control?”

This is the illogical story point that undermines the whole plot of the season. Why did Discovery continue with the plan to hide the sphere data when there was no Control to steal it? How could this plot hole escape their notice?

Daniel

I thought the same thing. I can only guess that the needed to be sure that the sphere data could never be recovered since we can’t really know that the AI was completely destroyed.

Daniel Tien

Well, consider in Star Trek First Contact, they killed the Borg Queen, but there she reappears in Voyager. I think Leland was the physical projection/manifestation of the Control AI, but they wouldn’t have had to fully move the entirety of the software from the Starfleet Cloud. Some remnant of Control is there, dormant or hiding… invisible the same way it was hidden from Section 31’s initial sweep.

Jay

Yes, indeed.

FLB

Exactly. To me, the Borg Queen reappearing in Voyager actually enhanced the concept. It made sense after Picard asked in First Contact how she could be on a different ship when he remembered her from BBW1-2 and she told him he was ‘small-minded’. I found the possbility of multiple bodies for the same entity intriguing.

More Troubles More Dribbles

According to the Red Signals it already happened. They had to complete the ‘Time Loop’ Burnham set in place. Besides, what level of certainty did they have that control was really dead, just because Terran Georgio says so? Had these events not occurred in this fashion, Control would have never got itself caught in the spore chamber to begin with. The whole thing was a pre-destination paradox that had to come full circle. In other words, the leap to the future was the culminating variable in the paradox. I thought that part was very Trek-like.

JonBuck

I think you’re dead-on here.

A plot point this nonsensical means one thing and one thing only: the people who wrote it cannot be trusted with writing. You may as well put your kittens in a car and then hand the keys over to someone who’s just done a big hit of heroin; if you expect to ever see those kittens again, man, you crazy.

NottsQueen

I’ve been lurking here for a while now and I haven’t commented before but your statement has really made me feel sick. So now you are equating writers to drug addicts, now? Is there any insult you won’t use to trash these people? You really are disgusting and abhorrent. The worst kind of troll I’ve ever seen. Shame on you.

TehPW

It’s a analogy. It’s meant to imply, in the more graphic of terms that the writers of STD are failures when compared to writers for any other series (past or present). That it triggered *YOU* had the desired results, apparently.

~Pensive’s Wetness (Long live the Impact Hammer!)

Michael Hall

“Triggered” is just the new way of saying “I don’t give a rat’s ass about your feelings.” That may be au courant in the age of Trump, but I don’t think it’s a very Trekkian sentiment at all.

tacotuesday

I can’t take anyone seriously who uses STD.

ML31

I’m sorry you have an issue with that.

Michael Hall

Yeah, sometimes these comments can go way over the top, just because people didn’t get the nerd fix they craved. Folks should remember that real-live people on the production staff read these threads, and if you didn’t care for their work that’s no reason to trash them as hacks.

I hated Trek 2009 with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns, and you’d better believe that Bob Orci knew the reasons why. But I did try never to make it personal.

If I’m the worst kind of troll you’ve ever seen, you’ve had good experiences with trolls.

Trek in a Cafe

You’re wrong about that. The Kittens will be very happy to see you though!

Spiked Canon

I thought that at first but have come around. Everything had to happen so that it would happen….time travel

SelorKiith

They are only sure they got rid of ‘Leland of 9’, it’s a computer program, to readily assume Control in it’s entirety is gone while the ship (and as extension its sensors) is heavily damaged and most likely scrambled alltogether due to wormhole shenanigans is negligent at best.
It’s better to stick with the plan and make sure than to Half-Ass the whole show and risk everything…

Spiked Canon

agree. it sounds like there was some clean up done afterward from Tyler’s question and star fleets response

tony

I dont think killing the leyland instance of control killed the whole thing. thats not how computer programs work. I think it was meant more like the master-node thats running things here has been put out of action, not that control was gone everywhere. the threat still existed.

TonyD

When Leland/Control went down in the spore chamber its entire fleet immediately went inert, allowing Pike and the Klingons to blast away and blow them all up. I agree that it is an overly simplistic solution as any self-respecting AI would obviously have planted backups of itself but judging by the debriefs at the end of the show everyone seems to be convinced that Control had put all it’s eggs in one basket, I mean meatbag.

TG47

Tyler was under no illusions that they could completely eradicate Control in one go.

When he took his leave of Burnham, he said that someone needed to make sure that Control didn’t rise again and that he could do that by staying and continuing to work in the grey areas.

We shouldn’t be diverted from that primary mission by his bring the Klingons and Baul to the fight.

Tyler will be all about making sure that Burnham’s sacrifice (and that of Discovery) was worth it.

Michael Hall

Control could presumably follow them into the future anyhow, one way or another. (Even just patiently wait-out the 930 years, which should be no big deal for an AI.) Burnham’s solution to the impasse just doesn’t make much sense.

Thorny

They couldn’t possibly be sure Control was dead.

Spiked Canon

only Georgiou knew and was very single mindedness at the time

martin

When Leland died, Discovery was already in the gravity well, and given it’s current condition, trying to escape probably would have destroyed it.

As for Control being defeated, that was spread across all the S31 ships. Leland dying would be the equivilent of when a Windows service crashes and causes a system panic, either resulting in a halt while it restarts those service, or results in a Blue Screen of Death. Depending on exactly what happened, the Enterprise may have had a short window or perhaps longer to destroy the remaining ships.

Also the need to get rid of the Sphere data wasn’t negated by Control being destroyed anyway. There would always be someone after it, if not Control, it would have been one of the Multitronic units, or Dr. Daystrom himself, or Norman, or Landru, or dozen other computers which Kirk would later have to defeat during his 5 year mission.

Phillip Thorne

The audience might infer “there would always be someone else after the Sphere Archive”, but isn’t not a plausible motivation if the characters don’t *name* anyone else. They have no evidence that “history of alien computer science” will be strategically useful to any other threat the Federation is aware of. (Heck, they never questioned why it’s useful to CONTROL, or *uniquely* useful — maybe the AI would eventually find *some other repository* of sentience algorithms.) They never say that the Archive contains *other* toxic knowledge (“hey, a recipe for a particle that destroys subspace”) that would supply additional motivation. If the audience needs to interpolate this much, there’s a problem with the writing.

Michael Hall

“When Leland died, Discovery was already in the gravity well, and given it’s current condition, trying to escape probably would have destroyed it.”

Very possibly, and a line a dialogue to that effect in the episode might have worked wonders. Just cut an explosion or two to make room for it.

Garak

“This is the illogical story point that undermines the whole plot of the season. Why did Discovery continue with the plan to hide the sphere data when there was no Control to steal it? How could this plot hole escape their notice?”

Wait – even worse than that, BEFORE the demise of Leland/Control, why were they continuing with the plan to get away from Control through the time wormhole when Leland/Control was known to be on the ship and thus obviously going with them? Surely anyone, especially Saru most of all, would see the complete illogic of that!

Daniel Tien

Star Trek: Picard | Prologue – Ambassador Jean-Luc Picard spends most of his days in retirement puttering around in his garden, cultivating exotic mushrooms when a spore cloud causes him to hallucinate and come up with the idea to travel faster than warp or transwarp speeds by leveraging the mycelial network. With his companion android B-4, they develop a prototype starship with such a drive and name it… Discover.

Nah it would be called Destiny.

Fred Javelina

Serenity?

Daniel Tien

One quick nagging thing though–Would Mirror Georgiou have read up on Prime Universe ancient Chinese military history, or would the Sun Tsu in the Mirror universe have written the Art of War the same way?

Emperor Mike of the Terran Empire

My Guess is the same way. The Mirror Phlox In a Enterprise Episode In a Mirror Darkly even stated that Shakespeare was Equally Grim in Both Universes.

UAB

The theory is pretty much that both universes had very similar histories, until one point of diversion. Enterprise implied the point of diversion that sent the MU down the darker path, was that humans decided to kill Vulcans at first contact.

ThatNuttyFanboy

Phlox’ mention of Shakespeare being ‘equally grim’ in the Mirror Universe and the Prime Universe, and the rest of the literature being weak and compassionate suggests that the diversion point was already a few centuries before that.

Patrick

My interpretation is that the Mirror Universe probably diverged when the Roman Empire managed to avoid falling. I think it may be more complex than that and my take would involve Romulan refugees fresh from Vulcan who pick up Roman culture before leaving to found Romulus in both timelines.

But I think the Mirror Universe’s early deviations involved someone halting Rome’s fall.

Thorny

I think Enterprise implied a more war-like Earth even before First Contact. Instead of all the footage of exploration in the normal opening, they showed lots of combat footage.

Fred Javelina

The fact that Terrans are sensitive to light implies that their Earth is *literally* darker. On a planet with less light, you’d probably spend more time worrying about predators that can sneak up on you, thus maybe that’s why they’re so aggressive and paranoid?

Jay

Lorca was always complaining about the light. The writers on Season 2 have missed doing the the same for the Emperor.

martin

Art of War is pretty basic stuff and you can read it pretty much in one bathroom break. If it didn’t exist in both universes, then it might be a basic reading assignment during the S31 orientation class.

Emperor Mike of the Terran Empire

This was a well done Show. The Action and the suspense was incredible. Have to Admit. Seeing Spock in. Uniform and shaved was just Awesome. Especially with Pike and Number one on the Bridge. Just makes me want a Star Trek Series with them at the Enterprise.

Thorny

Amen! CBS is leaving a humongous pile of cash on the table if they don’t at least do a movie/miniseries.

Michael Hall

I don’t want another five year mission on the Enterprise, but a miniseries would be awesome.

ML31

I’m in agreement with everyone who said the ending felt like a jump off for a Pike led show rather than a 3rd season for Discovery. If they wanted to focus on Discovery after Enterprise warped out they should have panned to the red signal and zoomed toward it as the screen fades out.

Tiger2

Wow! I can’t believe it. They did it, they REALLY %$#@ did it!!! Up until last week I was pretty skeptical the show was going into the future. Certainly that FAR into the future. Woah!

I’ll be honest I felt the finale was petty meh overall. Weird to say for something that had SO much action in it lol. I think it was just too much. So many things buzzing around, something blowing up every two minutes for nearly the entire hour. And yet not much happened in terms of any big surprises. I mean you can’t blame the writers that so many others put it together like Burnhman going back in time to create the red signals. It was clever, but too much of the this story line just felt like a little too nonsensical, even for Star Trek. And I can pick apart so much of this episode but I’ll leave that for later or for others.

But its what happened at the end that is what everyone will be focused on. So basically two seasons worth of stories is kind of moot now? I mean everything happened but the throw away line by Spock everything will just be ‘classified’ (and I KNEW that was going to happen, I just expected it at the end of the show’s run not season 2 lol) and thats it? That kind of tells you everything and they know it was really a mistake to put this show in the 23rd century to begin with. But what’s done is done now. Now we headed for a POST-NEMESIS SHOW on a level I never saw coming. Its going to be interesting! A 33rd century based Trek show? BONKERS! We got it, we finally got it….twice! Picard show being the 25th century will almost feel quaint now lol.

Finally THIS is the Star Trek I been wanting since Enterprise ended and I’m finally getting it!!!!! Crazy! :)

UAB

I have to say, I kept expecting them to chicken out. But nope, they really did turn the entire thing on its head. I love it.

Tiger2

Yeah, this is going to sound crazy but for the first time I’m TRULY excited for Discovery now! First season I was ho-hum about the whole thing but its still new Star Trek. Second season, it at least FELT like Star Trek again. But now, to do what they did? I’m pretty speechless. If they did this in season one, I think a lot more people would’ve been excited about the show on day one. FINALLY going forward again and in a BIG way!

I can’t IMAGINE what we are going to see…..and that’s the entire point. ;D

blackmocco

Ugh. I’m happy for you, Tiger, and I can see some folks on here enjoyed that one but I think I’m out. I just don’t have any hope the people in charge know how to do this properly.

Tiger2

Thats too bad dude, but I understand. And for the record, if the episode ended with them killing off Control and blew up the wormhole before they went in and stayed where they are, I would’ve been fine with that too. I think this is really a shock to a lot of people. Yes we been talking about it for weeks but its still shocking they did it.

And to be honest, once they announced the Picard show, I was fine with keeping Discovery in the 23rd century. I don’t even have a problem with more prequels now. I just wanted O-N-E show to present completely new things again. So I’m even more shocked because I thought thats why the Picard show was happening, to have a throw back of the TNG era but also to calm down all the complaints Star Trek was turning into tiring prequels. But this was clearly in place before the Picard show, so I guess not.

And what’s crazy about this thing now is we technically know way less about Discovery’s third season than we do about the Picard show. We at least know when the Picard show takes place. ;D

favian rodriguez

I feel your pain brother or sister.

UAB

I’m really happy about this too. I (despite having my gripes about a lot of S1) was willing to put up with yet another prequel. But I wanted new worlds, new life, and new civilizations. To boldly go where no one had gone before.

And boy howdy, is the 33rd century exactly that. Kurtzman, you annoy me sometimes but you are also a clever boy and that has endeared you to me somewhat.

Tiger2

Its really crazy! I really wish they just made a show in the far future on day one, but maybe this will be more interesting and kind of like Voyager being a fish out of water story.

And in reality its really not about going ‘farther into the future’ so much as its about having the freedom to just shape the universe however you want. It was obvious that was the biggest problem with Discovery. They put the show so closely to a known (and more primitive) era but then treated it like it was a 25th century show. They obviously knew they themselves felt locked in by the time era or why make it so advanced in the first place??? Now, they can do literally whatever they want, being 900 years past TNG era they won’t be getting any complaints out of me lol. Can you imagine a 33rd century Borg???? The possibilities are literally endless now.

And I remember some troll here here before he got banned who once taunted me that he was happy there would never be a post-Nemesis show and loved the fact Discovery was a 23rd century show and kept saying that all we would EVER see of Star Trek’s timeline wise (this was before the Picard show was announced). Six months later now we have two shows! I would pay REAL money to see that smugness wipe off his face yet again. ;D

Spiked Canon

They really wanted to tell a story about a klingon war and to delve more into Pike/Spock from the beginning. I think this has played out exactly as planned.

Tiger2

Honestly I really hated the Klingon war. I’m happy that only lasted a season. I honestly don’t know if I would’ve stuck with DIS if they did it longer.

Pike and Spock makes more sense now knowing we won’t be seeing them on this show anymore. Sad but this opportunity is more exciting. And Discovery needs to get away from the nostalgia stuff. For the first time this show will stand completely on its own and it needs to IMO.

ML31

You are assuming season 3 will be a 33rd century show. It still could be literally ANY time frame. I’m just hoping it will be 24th century or later. Not assuming anything.

Denny C

When the episode ended I thought they pulled a fast one and that season 3 would feature Pike and Crew. It would have been gutsier to have Discovery disappear into the future and have the CONCEPT of Star Trek Discovery as a series that presents a different aspect of Star Trek and exploration every two years.

So, yeah, it was a fun finale but it all felt a bit off. You couldn’t help but feel that all involved realized that the original concept didn’t work and that season 2’s sole purpose was to course correct and steer the show into the concept that they would prefer to follow.

Trellium G

The finale felt like a series finale. Which is probably appropriate since the show is obviously being retooled to be a completely different show. They should probably rename it too. Discovery: Phase II

It’s a shame Discovery only lasted 2 seasons.

Tiger2

I agree. I think they knew Discovery just wasn’t working in the era they placed it in and they decided to make season 2 feel more in line with TOS but I think they just felt too limited by the premise end of the day. It was really Fuller’s idea. My guess is if Kurtzman made the show from the start, it would’ve been a post Voyager show from the beginning and why Picard is coming back in the first place. They clearly wanted a post Nemesis show just based on everything we seen. And I think they love the spore drive but knew they can’t justify having it in the 23rd century without fans shouting blasphemy so now that problem has been solved lol.

I’ll be honest, as excited as I am, I am going to miss Pike and Spock. I didn’t want them on season 2 but now obviously I get why they were so gung ho to have them as much as they did. But even then, it still didn’t feel like the TOS era to me. Closer for sure but it still felt pretty out of whack. And the season finale just made it even more crazy. I’m sure they will be back in some form and maybe a show down the line but I’m guessing its going to be about Discovery and Picard for the next year or two.

Denny C

That ending was a massive tease for a show that may never happen. We have a ship, a crew and a premise that fans really want.

Tiger2

It could happen. I’m just pretty skeptical about it. It just sounds like they have a direction they are going in the next few years and thats it. But as I been saying, I’m pretty sure IF the new Section 31 show actually does get greenlit (and stayes in the 23rd century) then they will probably find room for them on that show. We spent literally a season with both Pike and Section 31 together, I don’t think it would be far fetched not to see them back on a more permanent basis.

ML31

Again, there is no reason to assume the section 31 show will be a 23rd century show. It could be 25th for all we know. Which would work much better, IMHO.

ML31

I think it was obvious their version of the 23rd century wasn’t working only a few episodes into season 1.

Spiked Canon

They said from day 1 that we needed to trust them and they were going to explain the canon. This was a 2 season arc originally planned to end the way it did.

ML31

With all the staff turnover there is no way in hell this was all part of a 2 season plan. Id’ wager money this is the direction decided upon only AFTER the 5th episode. One could say this is a 9 episode arc that was planned. And it STILL didn’t explain things away.

Garth Lorca

Yes and no. I’m excited about it as well, but I don’t think most people who wanted a post-NEM show were thinking about a classified, lost 23rd century ship exploring the 33rd century.

And there’s the problem. The Picard show already feels “quaint” because it’s 850 years into the past of what DISCO will do in Year 3.

But how do you credibly accentuate 850 years of technological progress with relations to two shows (DISCO 1+2, PICARD) that are already visual upgrades on the older Trek shows?
And how can you do that without making it VERY difficult for future Trek shows set in the 25th – 32nd century time span to find their take on future tech?
Basically, those future shows could either ignore DISCO Seasons 3+ or they have to be set in the even further future, the 35th century or beyond… 950 years into the future gives away far too much. They should have gone to the early 25th century instead.

However, I’m just having minor quibbles… still looking forward to everything at hand…

Tiger2

Man, I was just trying to figure out in my head how much more advanced Picard can look 150 years ahead of DIS when that show already feels like it belongs in the 25th century. I’m not going to even try to wrap my head around what things look like 950 years later lol. I don’t know what was wrong with going like maybe between the 26th-28th century either? That wouldve been far enough to give the Picard show to do whatever they wanted and still create any new canon with Discovery.

Maybe there is a specific reason why they set it that far ahead we’re not privy to yet.

As for future shows, Discovery is so far ahead now I don’t think it will really matter. I have a feeling if Picard is really successful and they spin off that show with something else (or bring in other TNG era characters) they will probably just keep it in the 25th century for a few years. But yeah who knows now? Anything is now literally possible. Its surreal.

Denny C

It would have been a bit more satisfying if the future they have been flung into is the future of the MIRROR universe. What occurred after the events that unfolded in DS9?

TG47

Discovery is definitely the trippyest Trek ever!

It definitely has an issue with putting ‘shiny things’ ahead of well constructed plots that hold together.

But it holds the viewer with its sheer audacity.

And this finale is definitely showing Discovery at its best.

As many of the professional critical reviews of the finale have said, Discovery doesn’t do well when one starts thinking through the details…but it’s a great ride in the meantime.

It’s no wonder it’s driving many of us long term fans into loops of annoyance…our whole fandom is about imagining the details.

But as long as whatever they write for the far future doesn’t make the optimism of the 23rd and 24th century Federation seem unwarranted, I can live with it.

Tiger2

I agree, Discovery has become a really trippy show. I like that they are willing to take bigger chances with it. Its funny because I remember when hearing about Calypso, I said it could be a sign that they were willing to go bigger with the show. I didn’t really think it meant it would actually travel to a thousand years into the future or anything but it did suggest it wasn’t just going to be a standard war show like so much of season one was (even the MU episodes was just more war stuff).

But yes, it still has to get better in the actual writing department. Two seasons straight and the story has basically become a mess by the end of the season. These guys need the DS9 writers to show them how to do a serial arc and have it really pay off in the end.

ML31

I’m not a fan at all of the concept of just not talking about it. Totally feels like a cop out on a level of saying the MU was “classified”. Further, the issue of why Spock never spoke of Burnham never needed to be addressed. Yet the show felt like it did for some unknown reason. There are still a bunch of non canonical things that have yet to be dealt with. I was of the understanding the producers said they would all line up. They didn’t. At all. The only thing that really would have fixed everything would be to hit the proverbial “reset” button. Which I was hoping they would do but ultimately did not do.

Oh well. That is just the Trek nerd in me talking. Ultimately the 2nd season was better than the first. It wasn’t good but it didn’t suck either. It really needs better characters to get over that hump. Something tells me that it’s possible future shows may be better. It happened with the TNG spinoffs. They needed to learn from TNG to get better. Perhaps history will repeat itself.

The Optimist

So can it be implied that General Order 7 was put in place to further protect the Discovery “destruction” secret or just to keep people from going to Talos 4?

Spiked Canon

hmm, could be

Thorny

The way to keep something a secret is to eliminate as much public information as possible and never talk about it. A big, famous GENERAL ORDER 7: DO NOT TALK ABOUT USS DISCOVERY is exactly the opposite of that.

I don’t think Discovery’s true fate is going to be any big mystery in the Federation. Starfleet said she was destroyed. No one has seen the ship or crew since Starfleet said she was destroyed. Very little reason for anyone to suspect otherwise. It isn’t immediately clear that any sizable number of people knew about the spore drive in the first place, and Starfleet saying Discovery was lost in an accident involving her revolutionary propulsion system should be enough for anyone casually interested in her loss.

J.L.J.

One question–Control was neutralized/defeated before Discovery entered the temporal wormhole, so why was it necessary at that point for Discovery to still go? If Control was neutralized, didn’t that eliminate their need to leave the present?

Another question–Georgiou was on Discovery when it jumped, so will she return to the 23rd century for her show?

All in all, this was a fun episode, lots of great stuff, but when Leland/Control was defeated and the ships went dead in the water, we both looked at each other and said at the same time and asked the above question.

SelorKiith

They are only sure they got rid of ‘Leland of 9’, it’s a computer program, to readily assume Control in it’s entirety is gone while the ship (and as extension its sensors) is heavily damaged and most likely scrambled alltogether due to wormhole shenanigans is negligent at best.
It’s better to stick with the plan and make sure than to Half-Ass the whole show and risk everything…

Tiger2

But if they only killed one version of Control why would all the other robots die too?

Garth Lorca

Because Leland was the Borg Queen :-) The thing with both the Borg and CONTROL is that none of that has ever been thought through coherently. When Picard destroyed the Borg Queen in FC, everyone thought for two years that the Borg were gone until they popped up happily ever after on VOY. Even the Borg Queen wasn’t gone for good. After Endgame, everyone assumed that the Borg were destroyed for good, but according to literature, that wasn’t the case either.

So yeah, The Borg Queen, Leland, Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael, the T-2000, the Xenomorph Queen, they just keep popping up whenever the writers want them to, and actually, that’s part of the appeal of those characters and concepts. Not everything has to be logically explained…

Tiger2

Yes but in the Borg case, nowhere did it suggest they were biologically tied to the Borg Queen. In fact the Borg just assimilated her like they did Picard when he was Locutus and just decided to make her their Queen later on. She was assimilated about a hundred years prior to Enterprise D first encounter with the Borg in Q Who.

So its not the same situation with Leland/Control who created everything around him. The Borg Queen was designated that by the Borg and we are not sure if she was the first Queen or just one of hundreds throughout their history. But they don’t live or die by her.

Garth Lorca

In FC, killing the Borg Queen meant destroying the Borg – at least the ones in that movie! They did the same with Leland and Control. Eliminating him ended the Control threat. So it’s very much like the Borg in FC.

However, the differences you point out are true, which makes it even more likely to eliminate Control by destroying Leland.

“Yes but in the Borg case, nowhere did it suggest they were biologically tied to the Borg Queen.”

It absolutely was suggested in FC. It’s the entire point of the movie. It was later ignored by VOY though as they were able to bring the Borg and herself back despite of what happened in FC.

“So its not the same situation with Leland/Control who created everything around him.”

If – according to you – Leland is even more pivotal to Control than the Borg Queen to the Collective, then it only makes sense to kill him in order to defeat Control. This would make Leland the MCP and therefore the key to ending this threat. Problem solved.

Tiger2

OK maybe I have to watch FC again lol. But in the dozen times I watched it over the years I never ONCE assumed the Borg self destructed because the Queen did. I just thought because Data released the warp core plasma killing the rest of the Borg in the room along with her. And I never once got the idea the entire Borg species was eradicated once she was killed, simply the Borg who was on the Enterprise E.

This is the first time I’ve even heard this theory suggested. Especially since as I said the Borg Queen was a relatively new addition to the Borg collective as a whole. She had nothing to do with their creation, it was more of a given title. But OK, we just have a different theory on it.

Thorny

Like why did all the alien soldiers dying when Ironman nuked the Chitauri mothership in “The Avengers”? Don’t ask questions, just eat your popcorn…

Garth Lorca

“One question–Control was neutralized/defeated before Discovery entered the temporal wormhole, so why was it necessary at that point for Discovery to still go? If Control was neutralized, didn’t that eliminate their need to leave the present?”

I had the same problem, but then, they wanted DISCO to go to the future in season 3.
If Leland had survived, even the time jump would be for nothing as the whole sh*t would have started all over in the 33rd century.
They wrote themselves into that corner by bringing Leland aboard in the first place, but the Leland / Georgiou showdown was part of the deal as well so he had to be where Georgiou was!

If they had Leland and Georgiou fight somewhere else, Georgiou would have been stuck in the 23rd century, but quite obviously, they want her show in the future as well, so that wasn’t an option either.

The only thing they could have done: defeating Leland inside the wormwhole or after the trip, but that would have taken away from the overall impact of the switch of focus onto the Enterprise crew not knowing if DISCO made it.

So I guess, it was a tough call. It doesn’t entirely make sense but it was necessary to see things through in order to relaunch the series and spin-off in the 33rd century…

Marvin the Martian

OMG OMG OMG. This was easily the most intense single episode of any Star Trek series I’ve ever seen. And not just for the non-stop action, but all the wonderful character moments sprinkled throughout. I was moved and I was moved. Wilson Cruz gave his best performance of the series to date, hands down, and the final moments between Pike and Cornwell made me hold my breath. Wonderful performances from both actors. (The final moments between Spock and Burnham were a bit overwrought, but still brought a tear to my eye.)

I see some harsh complaints here about the “Discovery and Michael Burnham will never be discussed again” wrap-up, but come on… was that really a surprise? I was expecting the series to end using that concept, so the surprise for me is that it happened this early in the life of the show.

Rather than be upset with the move into the future, I’m grateful to have been given some wonderful backstory on Pike, Spock, and others that has not only expanded my appreciation for those characters, but added a level of nuance and pathos to their appearances in TOS and the films. It will be interesting to parse out some new understandings of their motivations and actions when I rewatch those episodes and movies.

Now, we get a series reboot where the future is unwritten and unchained to any canon expectations. I never thought Discovery would give me the best of both worlds, but it has, and for that, I’m grateful.

Alan Light

Well said, Marvin. You nailed it.

Garth Lorca

That’s truly a great aspect about Michael and the show. We started out in a revamped version of the “familiar” 23rd century. We got to see Sarek and Amanda, the Mirror Universe, Spock, Pike, the Enterprise and the Klingons again.

And now we finally get her, the legendary adopted sister of Spock, to explore the undiscovered country, the future! It’s an epic concept to say the least, an adventure spanning an entire millennium.

Had they started out in the future… the 26th or 33rd century, we would have only gotten that. As you’ve said. Now, we got the best of both worlds.

Still, staying in the 23rd century with Pike and Spock would also have its merrits. It would be best if we didn’t have to chose and get both shows off the ground.

But then, there is that upcoming recession… Economy killed the Stargate and Knight Rider franchises ten years ago… I truly hope, Trek will prevail.

blackmocco

I got nothing, other than that was just appalling. Good lord.

It really was. And I don’t know why that surprises me; I guess I’m gullible, or that I’ve perpetually got an optimistic streak even when cynicism is dominating me. I’ve been cynical about this series since the end of the first episode, and yet, I keep thinking maybe it’s going to improve somehow. Then, every so often, it will; a little, temporarily.

But actually, really improve?

Nah. Not with these jokers running it. I “can’t wait” to see what they’ve “got up their sleeves” for season three. I’m sure it will be “epic.”

Oh my god, I just remembered they put Ash Tyler in command of Section 31. Hahahahahaha. Jesus.

blackmocco

My first thought – and probably the best case scenario – is that we’re never going to return to Discovery and just carry on with Pike and co. The last two seasons have just acted as the most expensive and pointless prequel in TV history so we can follow Pike and the Enterprise. Weirdly enough, I’ll take it. I don’t think I have the slightest interest in returning to the Discovery and her crew’s story, now that it’s been retconned. And written by amateurs.

Tiger2

But be honest do you think the Pike show would be any different? Yes I get people like the characters more but ALL the complaints people have about Discovery: Wacky technology, crazy soap opera plots and inane stories will still all happen on that show. You will get the Enterprise full time but look what we got in the finale? Even that ship felt like it had stuff waaaaay beyond the Kirk era (where those drones coming out of it? I’m still confused on all of that lol). I just think if people were disappointed in DIS, its not going to be a big difference if its run by the same guys IMO. Its basically going to be Discovery without a spore drive (and holograms ;)).

Now if you like DIS you will probably like it, but my guess is all the same issues and problems will pop up on that show regardless. And if I’m being honest, probably the Picard show as well.

blackmocco

Honestly Tiger, I don’t give a rat’s about canon. I’ll happily sacrifice it for good writing (of which you’re right- we won’t be getting from this writing team, regardless of who or what the show centers on…). But Pike and co were pretty much the only aspects of season 2 that worked for me and pretty much the only part where the writing didn’t utterly disappoint me. Everything else was just infuriating, pointless noise. Uggghhhh. I think I hate this season even more after a night’s sleep.

ML31

I’m with you. The characters from the Enterprise were just more interesting than anyone on Discovery. Saru lost his interestingness soon after his fear vanished. THAT is why I would prefer to see a Pike show over anything that happens on Discovery. It’s the people. I just don’t care about Burnham or Stammets or any of them. They all feel more like cliches than characters.

Denny C

With Pike’s Enterprise they found a balance by updating the appearance on that ship but the technology didn’t seem too far removed. I think Anson Mount managed to win everyone over with just about everything related to Pike and his Enterprise.

Garth Lorca

TOS was full of crazy, wacky concepts and insane stories, even early TNG was. Anybody who has problems with time crystals, red angel sightings or the mycelium network, should have problems with many bonkers TOS plots as well.

The problem is the nature of arc-based storytelling. If you don’t like the eventual overcomplicated outcome, it ruins an entire season, not just an episode or two.

If they go back to standalone adventures for the Pike show (with some threads woven into the background), Trek would be back to its early hit-and-miss nature. I’d rather have 7 out of 13 great standalone episodes per season than a 13-hour-storyarcs that turns out to be an overall disappointment.

Today’s episode was great, but it had to deal with some lose ends left by some questionable creative choices overall. Part of me still wishes the Red Angel had been a semi-religious alien from another dimension and taht there was more to it than Michael saving the universe. But that’s the tricky bit of story arcs. Either you like the outcome or you don’t.

J.S.

“Anybody who has problems with time crystals, red angel sightings or the mycelium network, should have problems with many bonkers TOS plots as well.”

First of all, many people DO
Secondly: Discovery is not TOS or TNG. 2019 is not 1966. Standards are set way higher now. These comparisons are pointless.

ML31

“Part of me still wishes the Red Angel had been a semi-religious alien from another dimension and taht there was more to it than Michael saving the universe. ”

That is kinda what I was hoping for from the beginning. Sure, Michael could be the hero but I would have liked it much better had the red lights been far more ambiguous. But that takes better writing than this staff has. They don’t seem to have a good grasp on the more thoughtful aspects of Star Trek. They seem to be much better at putting together the shallow “mystery” that season 2 turned into.

Vulcan Soul

“I just think if people were disappointed in DIS, its not going to be a big difference if its run by the same guys IMO.”

Spot on! The problem is ultimately with the (behind the scenes) people and their sophomore understanding of Trek (and science fiction). I’ll pass.

Garth Lorca

While I’d prefer the Pike show over DISCO S3 any day, I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t get both. One of the reasons for sending DISCO into the future is to get her out of Enterprise territory.

DISCO was not a pointless show, but as a prequel it didn’t work. One of the main purposes of any prequel instellment or reboot would be to make things LESS complicated, to give viewers a new entry point to the entire franchise.

Both ENT and DSC have failed at this because they were plagued with continuity issues and overly complicated plot devices from day one… temporal cold war, red energy time signals, the Xindi plot, the CONTROL threat years before M5… none of that helped to simplify things for new viewers. Both ENT and DSC should have been straight-forward adventure series, leaving more complicated issues for future installments post-NEM.

Garth Lorca

I know, this arc-based storytelling is part of nowadays’ TV. And there have been many gret shows depending on it. But honestly, some of those shows were only great WHILE they were going on, a sub-par outcoming ruined many of them: Lost and to some extent NuBSG comes to mind and if GoT represents a major disappointment for some fans, it will get loathed because of that format soon.

And it has to be like that. Because no one can please everyone with an outcome to a huge story-arc that sets up so many different expectations in various viewers. Standalone episode don’t do that. You can always start over next week and try to keep things interesting…

ML31

Personally I like the idea of mixing stand alones with a season long arc. The problem is you normally need more than 13 episodes to do that. The Xindi plot worked very well. Many of the stories were great stand alone episodes that also served to move the overall season long story forward. It wasn’t until the final handful of shows of the season did it REALLY get serialized. But by then we were hooked. So it worked very well. I just don’t see Kurtzman & Co up to such a task especially since they seem to be stuck with mini seasons.

Denny C

I was bit more diplomatic when I said it was a bit off but, yeah, I hear where you’re coming from.

Vulcan Soul

I have nothing to say as well. Every further word is wasted, so I will just say this: this was half part Marvel, half part Star Wars, and zero part Star Trek. God knows what brainless emo fantasy they will turn this into in the 33rd century, freed from the “shackles” of Old Trek in every regard!

Phillip Jeffries

Yeah, what an excruciating, mindless episode of a pointless season. If they weren’t even going to try to maneuver through canon, they shouldn’t have needed to make the lead related to Spock as her defining characteristic and they should have just shot Discovery into the future from the get-go.

Spock’s Half Brother

I thought the episode was spectacular. It’s disheartening to see such nitpicking (mainly replies to the previous post) in regards to the script (place any reason here that doesn’t sit well with 1960s/90s obsessed trek fans). It is so tiring to read such negativity. (Yet, curiously they still watch the show ?!). I hope those that are excessively negative take some time to marvel at the positives. Like Michael skimming her body over the beautifully rendered saucer section of the Enterprise. Or the slight, subtle variations of the Discovery soundtrack – mixed in with the fantastic sound effects which do play homage to the old series. The care and professionalism displayed by the lead actors. The amount of effort by every team member who have tried so hard to improve this season. Continue to moan and belittle the show. Plot holes. Meh. No biggie. You can always find errors if you look hard enough. Just enjoy it. Give me more blue phasers and heart wrenching scenes like those between Burnham and Spock. Live long and prosper.

There are definitely big-time positives. Which is what makes the many, many negatives so much more disappointing.

Glad you enjoyed it, though. Wish I did!

Ad Astra Per Aspera

I don’t know whether to feel sorry for you or not. I can’t imagine endlessly writing about how much you hate a television show and all those involved in its production. Surely you have better things to do than troll?

No, not really. I’m waiting for some laundry to finish drying so I can put it up and go to bed.

Also, you’re seeing what you want to see. I don’t hate anyone involved in the production of this show. I think some of the behind-the-scenes people are terrible at their jobs, but “hate” them? Not even slightly. And I think most of the in-front-of-the-camera people (plus most of the technicians) are frequently brilliant.

Plus, there’s a difference between trolling and complaining. I’m complaining. Belly-aching, even. Trolling implies a lack of sincerity, and trust me when I tell you I am 100% sincere about how much I think this show sucks.

blackmocco

I don’t know whether to feel sorry for you or not that you watched that and felt completely satisfied. I missed Star Trek too, but that doesn’t mean I should just shrug my shoulders and accept something this substandard as the new norm.

Hear, hear.

>place any reason here that doesn’t sit well with 1960s/90s obsessed trek fans

You mean all of Star Trek except Enterprise, Discovery and the last two seasons of Voyager? That’s ridiculous, why are there Star Trek fans be obsessed with that!?

ML31

What you wrote, SHB, is part of why the season was not good. You mention the high production values. Which were admittedly top notch. But that doesn’t make the characters any more interesting or the circumstances any less sigh-inducing. The problem, again, was lack of good characters, sorry writing and silly plotting. Granted, they were better in season 2 but a lot of that can be directly related to the addition of Pike. He’s gone for S3. So we are once again left with a ship of bland people we don’t care about.

J.S.

OMG, what a writing mess that was

– if Control is defeated, why escape into the future?
– Spock couldn’t follow Discovery (that was, by the way, sooo forced), but couldn’t they just beam him in?
– the time crystal was supposed to burn out after one jump, yet Burnham managed to do 5 jumps before that? Do the writers follow their own show? If they don’t even follow their own ideas, we can’t expect them to honor the existing canon, simple as that.
– the whole “sync up with canon” thing took them 5 seconds. I literally laughed out loud.

I was very much looking forward to the finale, keeping my expectations in the lower end of the spectrum and yet… they still managed to disappoint :(

P.S. during that last scene on the Enteprise bridge for a minute I honestly thought that the Discovery story and crew are done for and that they are setting up the 3rd season being about the Enterprise in 23rd century.

UAB

Yeah… Writing messes is just kinda Discovery’s thing. But Season 2 was improved enough, I’m holding out for what I hope will be an even better season 3. Baby steps.

JonBuck

Discovery would have had to drop its shields to beam Spock aboard–at that point that was not a good idea.

Ad Astra Per Aspera

You would have thought that they would have mentioned that point… oh wait they did…..

You would also have thought that the writers might have considered how illogical it was for Spock to ever consider going with Michael in the first place. Or that they might have considered that Spock might have recognized how fundamentally illogical it would be to send to the ship into the future, where an A.I. with no mortal needs of the flesh could catch up with them without any trouble whatsoever.

But no.

Thorny

1) They couldn’t take the chance that Control was not just playing possum
2) Couldn’t lower shields in the midst of battle (Pike and Number One also say this)
3) Yep, most glaring plothole of the episode in my opinion
4) More like 2 to 3 minutes

J.S.

Nah, it took Spock approx 5 seconds to say “it’s confidential” :) Man was that a disappointment. On par with “it was all just a dream/a simulation”.

ML31

Even “it was all just a dream/a simulation” would have been better than what they did.

And yes, I thought the crystal only allowed for one time jump. Did someone miscalculate?

ML31

“– the whole “sync up with canon” thing took them 5 seconds.”

But there really wasn’t any “sync up with canon”. What did they sync up? Did I miss it? Is there a version that was shown using some platform I’m not privy to?

Gray Zip

Two things:
one: these people are a bunch of crybabies. Does that comment somehow make me sound old? Are kids these days super into crying all the time over every little thing, and letting waterfalls of tears pour out of their eyes for five straight minutes when something big goes wrong? Because in the old days when something big went wrong you tried to fix it first. Maybe people cried later, I don’t know, we never saw it.
Two. This going way into the future thing is a bad idea that I hope they undo but quick. Star Trek has always worked best as a ship as part of a Federation. Take away the ship (DS9) or the Federation (Voyager) and the show ends up tying itself into a pretzel to bolt the missing piece back on. They’re also setting themselves up for the Star Wars problem, where the franchise can go 3000 years in the past or 5000 years in the future and everybody always uses light sabers and gets around in land speeders and x-wings.

Tiger2

They spent an entire season setting themselves up just to go INTO the future, I wouldn’t expect them to come back anytime soon now that they did it. And we also know the ship gets abandoned in Calypso. I THOUGHT it was in the 23rd century and we saw it again in the 33rd century but NOW that suggests they left it in the 33rd century (or whenever) and Calypso actually took place the 43rd century? Nuts lol!

And I loved DS9 and VOY because it did take away the creature comforts. And who knows Discovery can still be part of the Federation, just in a far future version, which we have seen glimpses of them so we know they exist.

Gray Zip

All true. Here’s hoping

J.S.

If Discovery takes place in 33rd century now then the inevitable “why is 23rd century tech so similar to 33rd century tech” will happen. Also I seem to recall “we didn’t want to do it post-Nemesis because it’s hard to imagine a future that is that far away”

Tiger2

“we didn’t want to do it post-Nemesis because it’s hard to imagine a future that is that far away”

LOL I forgot all about that, but yes you’re right they did say that (they also said we would never see Spock on this show either too ;)). And to be fair, which I pointed out at the time, that was said by the old show runner who never did science fiction before and clearly didn’t have much of an imagination. But this is what so funny and frustrating at the same time. ALL these people who kept saying its ‘impossible’ (people literally used that word) to come up with a show just a few decades after Voyager seem to think just because THEY couldn’t come up with actual ideas with their limited imaginations doesn’t mean professional writers can’t. You point this out and of course you get totally ignored lol.

Now, ironically, the above quote was being said about a show that is now going 1000 years into the future, not just 150-200 years. And it’s not an ‘I told you so’ moment. Even *I* thought going that far into the future was bonkers lol. But it does prove these writers just want to be free to be as creative as they want, especially with Star Trek and science fiction. TOS was NOT a ‘grounded’ science fiction show. It was simply a lower budget show from the 60s. Things were more limited because they had to be but transporters and warp drive is still as fantastical back then as holodecks and spore drives are now.

And most of us JUST wanted a show a little past voyager so they can have the freedom to create what they want, thats all. They didn’t have to set it this far out. The fact they are tells me they really want to present a more futuristic show that they couldn’t do in the the 23rd century era. And judging by all the nutty tech they have come up with this show is probably what convinced them to go this far ahead, to be unshackled and do whatever they want however they want. Fans complaining about holograms in the 23rd century? Well in the 33rd century there will be hologram planets. ;D

And its probably why they are more excited about a Section 31 show than a Pike show because while a Pike show sounds great for fans, it will still present them the same problems with Discovery and not having all the cool toys (although looking at that finale, it certainly didn’t stop them. Sometimes I thought I was watching Star Wars lol).

Sam

It is not lack of imagination or creativity to not be able to visualize a ST show set 30-100 years after VOY or Nemesis. I’ve been hearing fans demand such a show for the past 20 years, and I still can’t visualize it.

VOY already turned ST’s 24th century into the blandest setting possible. The technology had become “Push a button and… magic happens.” The sets and uniforms had gotten drab. Even Berman and Braga (who DO speak honestly about ST on the ENT Blu-Ray extras, for all of their mistaken attitudes about Trek in general) knew better than to launch yet another “next-next generation” series when UPN asked for it. They weren’t interested in Even Faster Ships.

When fans talk about a show set after Nemesis, they kind of just park there. And? What would you do next? Apparently conjure up eight characters, put them on a starship, and… Business As Usual (preferably episodic, with a moral/affirming message at the end of every ‘sode). You don’t hear “…and then, what if the focus were on a single character rather than yet another ship? In fact what is Patrick Stewart doing now?” It’s still mostly up to the writers/producers to actually come up with the original ideas like a lower decks show, an old-man Picard show, a secret service show and (yes) a cadets-in-training concept that’s been on the table for 30 years but thankfully never exploited.

Tiger2

No offense dude but you are making my point for me. I’ll say it again, just because YOU can’t imagine it doesn’t mean others can’t. I don’t know why this is so hard to get lol. Kristen Beyer is on the staff of the Discovery and is the creator of the Picard show. She got the job because of her Voyager reluanch novels which she wrote for a full decade after Voyager went off the air and are highly acclaimed. SHE has no problem imagining a post Voyager future and hence why the Picard show is even happening. She has created an entire new mythology of that era in her books and my guess is will be an influence for the new show.

As for magical tech and buttons, have you been watching Discovery? They built a TIME TRAVEL SUIT in an hour last episode lol. And what exactly about DIS itself that couldn’t just fit into a post-Voyager setting? Thats the issue, everything about that show could fit into Picards time now. The 23rd century was a pretty arbitrary setting because the show already had so much advanced tech and changes like uniforms and size of the ship it just doesn’t really matter. Its only in the 23rd century because someone said it is, thats it. It could literally be ANYWHERE!! I been saying this forever.

Lastly Berman and Braga had been working on a 24th century show for over a decade. Of course they couldn’t imagine another future Trek because they were burnt out on it. But fresh writers with fresh ideas can imagine something different, hence why we now have a show set 950 years into the future lol.

It boggles the mind, the show is about the FUTURE. Do people really think no one can imagine the future past a few centuries from now? Well clearly those people are not science fiction writers for this reason.

Discovery is changing the game in a major way now and will set up crazy things for Star Trek for years to come. Maybe it will suck or maybe it will be great. I guess we’ll see. Meanwhile just enjoy the possibilities! I don’t treat Star Trek as some grounded show based on our own future. Its always been a trippy far out show and its getting trippier. I love all the magical tech stuff and see how crazy things can get. If Discovery is anything to go on based on this season alone, its going to be a CRAZY ride a thousand years into the future. I always dreamed of stuff like this in Star Trek, I never thought we would get it lol. Can’t wait!

Denny C

Oops. They did say that, didn’t they?

Tiger2

And guess what, I went and found it! Have a look:

https://trekmovie.com/2017/11/16/star-trek-discovery-showrunner-dismisses-post-voyager-setting-says-s2-will-reconcile-canon/

Its pretty funny reading the responses now lol. But what’s the most ironic thing about the article was the show runner at the time was defending why keeping it pre-TOS was the better option while also explaining how season 2 was going to reconcile all the canon issues that first season presented. So I’m guessing the plan to ‘reconcile’ the canon issues to TOS by throwing the ship a thousand years into the future was an idea they came up with AFTER they fired him. ;)

So glad he was no longer running the show. I doubt we would have this story line now with that very uncreative attitude.

UAB

“Back in my day, we walked to school barefoot in the snow – up a hill, both ways. We shot guns. We listened to our parents. And we didn’t do no cryin with our Trek. It was manly, Shatnerian glory.”

I have no idea what you’re on about but, you do you, dude.

Gray Zip

I was suggesting they cry a lot on this show and it’s silly

Fred Javelina

Maybe you don’t cry enough? Suppressing your emotions gives you high blood pressure and cancer, man.

Gray Zip

Well I’ve had both so no argument there. But this season once you were clued into it Star Trek actors crying became a drinking game that could kill you too

Fidel

So much fun. Looking forward to season 3.

Not even going to nitpick.

Well, except for the photon-torpedo-protecting blast door….

Seriously fun though.

UAB

I complained all through season one about how terrible I felt Harberts and Berg were as showrunners and writers. Season one had a ton of stupid, non-sensical, “Because sci-fi, don’t think about it” stuff.

Season two was a huge improvement. Having said that, there was a still a lot of Goldsman/Kurtzman “We’d like to remind you that we’re the minds behind I, Robot and Transformers movies” moments. Control was a dumb villain with a dumb motive, time crystals sounds like something from a Flash Gordon serial, Georgio is still awful (Lord, how I long for Prime Georgio. She was perfect.). We all know the Enterprise isn’t in danger, so why bother with the drama with the warhead? Think about all the time suit gobbledygook and the predestination paradox crud, you’ll go cross eyed. Oh and yeah, jumping even though you just killed Control, to escape Control, while you brought what’s left of Control with you, is just… What?

But, there’s also a lot to like. Pike is a BAMF. Peck’s Spock is a great take. Klingons have hair. Their ships don’t look like Prometheus ships crossed with birds. Number One is suitably… Number… Oney. Oh, and I don’t care who you are or how long you’ve been watching Star Trek – that modern take on Enterprise and her bridge was just… Oh man. The ol’ lass has never looked better.

It’s late, it’s been a long day, and I’m rambling.

TL;DR: Season 1 was garbage that had some redeeming quality. Season 2 was pretty darned good for the first half and the finale was pretty good as long as you don’t think about it. Flawed, but way, way, WAY better than season 1. And I’m excited to see 800 years past Voyager.

Much as I enjoyed it, is anyone else bothered by how we have to say, “yeah, don’t think about it” about Trek now? It feels wrong.

Tiger2

Wow I can’t disagree with much of any of this! I agree season one was a TOTAL mess IMO. Its still the second worse first season outside of TNG for me. But season two they heard the complaints and made a lot of positive changes. Sadly the season didn’t end as well as it started but overall a huge improvement nevertheless. They heard the fans complaints and took them seriously.

Well I guess third season proves they REALLY heard the complaints lol. To go this totally left field is stunning but impressive at the same time. I remembered how impressed I was with DS9 in its third season when they gave that show the Defiant lol. This is on another level of game changer.

Ad Astra Per Aspera

Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who enjoys Mirror Phillipa! Maybe it’s because she’s as camp as hell but I absolutely live for the moments when she appears. All that snark and sass. I canot get enough!!

I actually kind of started to warm to her the final third or so of the season. But her past makes it impossible for me to accept that other people on the show would accept her; I never bought the notion that Burnham would have saved her. It’s ridiculous.

They’re stuck with it now, though, and I do think the character has gotten better.

TG47

UAB I think I will be able to cope with the ‘don’t think about it’ if they can restrict this to Discovery.

If trippiness, shiny things, overwrought emotions and audacity at bullet speed characterize one show, but the other offerings are different, it won’t be so problematic.

I do think that it will reduce Discovery’s rewatchability and long term revenue generation.

But if it’s the Trek targeted at a new audience niche….and it’s return on investment is based on expanding CBSAA’s reach…

I can deal.

UAB

That’s fair enough. And, I mean, if we’re completely honest… TOS had an episode where aliens stole Spock’s brain and Dr. McCoy drove him around like an RC car. So… I guess some camp and “don’t worry about it” is not outside of precedent. :)

Marty

Cue the whining.

Incoming.

J.S.

Cue the “cue the”-guy who thinks he’s smart this way

Marty

Cue the cue the guy cue guy.

J.S.

Predictable

Fred Javelina

(flash of light) Well well, mon capitaine.

Cue the Q guy

Kevin Lee

Queue the “cue” guys.

It’s not whining. It’s flat-out hollering. Bellowing, maybe.

Marty

The Picard show will be ‘what happened to Discovery?’

‘Her missions were required reading at the Academy.’

Meh.

If that’s what happens, it will legit break my heart to the extent that I might just skip the whole thing.

But my hope is that a gambit like this one is designed to make it explicable why a guy like Picard NEVER mentions the ship or Burnham.

sisko

So, never answered is who or what made the seven signals seen at the beginning of the season? Those seven signals seemed to be different than the ones show throughout the season and created by Burnham in this episode. Or did all the Burnham signals travel through time to the beginning of the season?

Also, where in the episode did Pike say the name “Una”? I missed that. When she was told to state her name at the end of the episode and she said “Number One”, I figured that that was her actual name (as I think Gene Roddenberry said way back when).

All-in-all, Season 2 was better than Season 1 and I enjoyed them both. (First Star Trek series I’ve enjoyed since DS9.)

And yeah, I too questioned why they continued to travel through time when Control was defeated (although, maybe they weren’t certain that Control was 100% defeated). I also wondered how Georgiou was going to get back to the 23rd Century.

Great series finale for Discovery and pilot episode for Star Trek: Pike… er Star Trek: The Original Original Series.

P.S. Where was Yeoman Colt? She was listed in the credits for these last two episodes.

J.S.

” Or did all the Burnham signals travel through time to the beginning of the season?”

No, she travelled back in time from this episode (even though they stated in the previous episode that the time crystal burns out after ONE jump) to send them, even the scenes of Red Angel appearance from previous episodes were replayed. But I don’t blame you for not catching that, the writing was a total mess throughout.

sisko

I’m talking about the seven signals that started the whole season. The seven signals that required Pike to take over command of the Discovery. The seven signals that drive Spock insane. Not the seven signals discussed and seen in this episode.

I think the writers either forgot about that or were hoping we had forgotten.

It makes no sense, so far as I can tell.

J.S.

Ah, right. I was thinking about this several days back too, but I just put it to rest and thought maybe I was remembering something wrong. Turns out I wasn’t.

What a terrible plot.

It was pointed out on either Mission Log or Shuttle Pod — not sure which. I hadn’t really noticed it with my full attention. I kind of thought of it at one point, but figured I must have just forgotten something, because no way could the writers possibly be THAT poor at their jobs.

Nope. I was wrong. They sure are.

FLB

Different producers. I think what we saw in the last episode *isn’t* what was planned and that the story arc played very, very differently than what was originally intended. Or that there was a conflict between what the producers wanted and what the writers felt they could deliver… and then Kurtzman stepped in and ripped the whole thing to shreds.

In other words, I think the seven signals at the end were a retconning of the seven signals that started the season.

Daverambo

I’m. It convinced about the whole one jump thing. A single jump for the suit with a slingshot out has already been shown to work multiple times. Hundreds for the mother. It’s the opening or a much bigger wormhole without the slingshot that burns out the crystal so no plot hole.

Presume they have to continue through the wormhole to complete the predestination parodx or time would be destroyed.

ML31

Perhaps so but if that is the case they needed to mention it as the obvious takeaway is one jump means exactly that to the audience. ONE jump. Not the concept of creating a huge wormhole. There are no time constraints with streaming. They could have had this come up in Burham and Spock’s conversation. “But I only have the crystal for one jump!” That is the power to create a wormhole large enough for Discovery to pass through. I calculate you still have enough to make 6 jumps one your own in addition to that.”

Garth Lorca

“Those seven signals seemed to be different than the ones show throughout the season and created by Burnham in this episode. Or did all the Burnham signals travel through time to the beginning of the season?”

Those ARE the same signals. While I cannot tell you why they were visible or detectable all at once in the season premiere and then later, popped up one by one, they are supposed to be the seven signals sent out by Michael as we know now. The other Red Angel appearances (without the signals) were created by her mother and always revolved about saving Michael’s life.

There are no other signals. Again, I don’t know why Starfleet was able to detect those outbursts all at one time in the first episode to set things in motion.

Throughout the entire season, the DISCO crew implied that those individual signals were identical to the ones somehow registered by Starfleet at the beginning of Season 2. It never made much sense, but these signals were supposed to be identical. Let’s just assume Michael made it happen in this episode somehow.

A temporal echo of sorts? The writers never bothered to explain that because for some reason, they didn’t ask that question. Nobody onscreen did. That is indeed puzzling, but it was supposed to be that way from day one…

Garth Lorca

Just rewatched the relevant parts of “Brother”… Pike states that the signals appeared in “perfect synchronicty” for a short while but six of them couldn’t be clearly located and locked onto.
The only one that had localized was the one that’s featured in “Brother”. So they knew there were going to be seven red energy outbursts, but six of them were displaced in time and couldn’t be clearly identified. Those are the ones that appeared at later points in time. It was supposed to be Trek’s version of a temporal paper chase. It may not be scientifically logical, but it served its dramatic purpose as a plot device.

Trek in a Cafe

They created a mystery which needed a graphic visual — perhaps even a POV shot — let’s say we get the POV of people on the Hiawatha. From there we, the audience, will understand that this is the problem that Discovery is trying to solve when Pike points out “hey, Signals.” And then maybe in the second episode a cold opener on Terralysium. They would only have to do that once or twice.

Instead, the mystery box theory of telling a story gives audience members like us (people who pay attention!) the feeling that they are watching someone shuffle very pretty playing cards. The soap opera covers it up. But they create the seven signals, then they disappear even though we never see that, then they appear again when the Red Angel appears, only that’s not what’s happening because they find out the signals are unrelated to the Red Angel — they — ummm…..? Even if this all makes sense, the biggest problem with this production is they are AFRAID of having the characters sit down and explain anything to each other, to have them treat each other like there is a learning experience at hand. That is Star Trek and that is what is missing here. EVERY TIME. And I love the moving cameras, I love that. But still. Stop and give people something to chew on.

Tonight’s finale helped show/explain what happened to some minor satisfaction. I didn’t get what I wanted, which is Spock and Michael having a mind meld on the ice planet. Perhaps that is still for Season 3 and Spock can get his beard back.

But if we had binged watched all 14 hours as people will doubtless do in the future, Season 2 will suffer from a problem with the dramatic buildup because the signals can be whatever the episode or the scene needs. And, finally, how it ties into Michael’s story was also not really very well shown because she was basically in a series of events programmed by her mother. And she never questions it – and never wonders about it. We don’t go with her inside her brain. And now at the end, we are finally inside the onion – the moment of the wormhole – and there was only a videogame.

I still think we saw things tonight we have never seen before in Star Trek, so there was that. I have never watched an episode absolutely wishing I was watching it in a theater – the whole time. That was kind of incredible. And given all the time-related shenanigans, I didn’t hate it.

Garth Lorca

I think they explained a lot about these incidents throughout the season. The signals are unrelated to Red Angel-Mama, but they are related to Red Angel-Daughter. That’s been stated numerous times. The signals are the ones created by tonight’s episode. The only explanation that’s sort of missing is why Starfleet was able to detect all seven signals in synchronicity for a very short time.

But overall, DISCO was pretty good at explaining and explaining away lots of minute details, plot holes and continuity errors. Actually, this season was so much fun because they fan service very seriously, starting with holographic communication, Klingon hair, spore drive, Spock’s family issues, starship designs etc…

Therefore I am more than willing to forgive that minor missing explanation Michael could have given us in one sentence or two…

The only stuff that bothers me are fighter squads aboard the NCC-1701…

Trek in a Cafe

They did “talk” a lot about what they were seeing, or what they thought they knew, but I think we are confused because with all the beautiful imagery we didn’t see most of it, and what we got was doled out in flashes and slight misdirects. If production was confident that the events they were depicting were truly mysterious and their characters were relationships to these events, things would have been depicted in a way that I am assuming would have pleased most of us and fans who have never watched Star Trek before.

Holden

I’m still onboard with the show but the finale just didn’t work. The most disappointing thing about the finale to me was how the RA storyline seemed to completely fall apart. So, the red bursts appeared simultaneously at the beginning, but then we are waiting for them to (re)appear the whole season? What’s the distinction between Michael’s appearances and her mom’s? So it turned out to be her the whole time, but her mom made an occasional appearance too? There’s no way this plot holds up to close scrutiny.

Garth Lorca

To some extend, it actually does make sense.

The Red Angel that appeared without any signals was her mum! It was clearly stated that there were no signals involved with her appearances. It was one part of the overall mystery why some appearances came without the signals…no signal was sent because these jumps were only made to protect Michael from dying, not to alert Discovery or Starfleet!

The Red Angel that appeared alongside the signals was Michael: Hiawatha, Terralysium, Kaminar, Boreth, Xahea and the future exit point… She travelled to all six sites where the signal AND the Angel appeared over the season, the seventh one was just a greating for Spock from the future.

Now Starfleet was able to register all seven outbursts of red energy simultaneously shortly before Pike took over DISCO but they were only able to locate and lock onto ONE signal, the closest one to their present. The other six signals were somewhat perceivable, but they couldn’t clearly pin them down. That was only possible shortly before they actually appeared in the space-time-continuum, leading DISCO to the various sites…

All of this makes absolute sense, the only problem is why Starfleet sensors were able to gather intel on those seven signs in perfect synchronicity for that very limited moment. But that’s the only valid question I can think of. The rest has been clarified sufficiently.

Holden

“All of this makes absolute sense, the only problem is why Starfleet sensors were able to gather intel on those seven signs in perfect synchronicity for that very limited moment. But that’s the only valid question I can think of.”

Yeah, that’s a big valid question. . . And how her mom knew her life was endangered when it was convenient for the plot

Holden

Sorry to revisit this, friend, but the only *valid* question you can think of is the one that set up the whole plot this season? Nevermind that that isn’t the only question.

Whatever. I know I need to let it go.

Let’s try again next season. For now, I’m done rationalizing DISCO and looking ahead to Picard and see where things go from there. LLAP.

TG47

Yeoman Colt is the alien in blue.

She’s played by a stunt specialist who has had a couple of other alien roles in Discovery.

sisko

Wait… Yeoman Colt is an alien now?!?! I knew she was being played by that stunt woman, but I didn’t know she was turned into an alien. That doesn’t work at all with The Cage, and we all know they watched The Cage and The Menagerie.

As for the season beginning seven signals… Time travel physics it is.

NCTrekker

Yeah, when exactly did Pike call her “Una?”

Thorny

At about the 41 minute mark. He says, “Report to the Bridge, I’m giving you the Conn, Una. Admiral, do everything you can to buy us more time.”

NCTrekker

Thanks

Andrew SD

This was like a feature film in its level of production. It puts a really great bow on the season and I can’t wait to go back and binge watch it in it’s entirety. I don’t think they needed that big of a reset at the end but it will be exciting to find out where they go with such a clear slate in front of them. Do they make it to the distant future or did they end up somewhere else? I know that this will go down as one of the more impactful episodes of Star Trek for me in my mind, that’s for sure. See you all in 2020.

JonBuck

Well, Star Trek Online will have to do some retconning to their Age of Discovery storyline. Not too much, I think, but some.

helenofpeel

So how is Georgiou supposed to get back to Section 31 in the 23rd century?

Hopefully only in fan fiction on account of somebody at CBS realizing nobody wants to actually see that show.

Tiger2

That is the biggest question mark. Maybe she doesn’t end up back at Section 31 in the 23rd century but recruited by a more futuristic S31? I don’t really see them doing that, her background is already zany enough: from Emperor from the Mirror Universe posing as former Captain Georgiou for her clandestine role as Section 31 agent in the Prime Universe. Now it would be former Emperor from the Mirror Universe who jumped through time 1,000 years in the future leading Section 31 in the 33rd century. That would feel like too much.

Who are we kidding, this is Discovery, this is definitely the the setting for the new show! ;D

They get to read history at some point. Burnham learns of Spock’s adventures with Kirk but Georgio learns of the guardian of forever

The River Temarc

The problem with leaping 950 years in the future is that it’s the equivalent of bringing a medieval galley to the present day, showcasing it against a modern aircraft carrier, and expecting the medieval technology to be usable, whether for travel or combat. (I suppose we could find that the future is a dark ages, where technology has regressed, but that’s not particularly the outcome I’d like to see for the Star Trek universe, either.)

(I should add the caveat “if they are, in fact, going 950 years in the future.” That wasn’t in the episode, but in Kurzman’s interview. And we know how honest we was about not seeing Spock this season.)

Also, there are surely thousands of people involved in designing Discovery. The missing crewmembers have families and friends. The existence of Discovery isn’t something that can be covered up. (Are folks like Harry Mudd going to cooperate?) The existence of the Spore Drive as an experimental piece of technology, however? Maybe. Particularly since it requires a Tarigrade or Tardigrade DNA.

JonBuck

Let’s see. What we roughly know of that era involves the Timeship and Temporal Integrity Commission (29th century) and Daniels (31st). Both with temporal transporters and even more advanced tech. But I think they’re going even a couple more centuries beyond Daniels.

But it’s really going to depend on the political situation. Is there even a Federation? Is there a new Dark Age going on? Lots of potential stories to be told here.

Garth Lorca

I guess they could go down the Andromeda route. Fallen Federation concept with the Discovery crew – especially Burnham – reviving some spirits around there and eventually setting things in motion to recreate the Commonwealth…er… Federation. Evolved Kelpiens as either the Maggog or the Nietzscheans and Zora as Rommie.

I dunno. As much as I’d like to explore that territory, it has been done on Andromeda and it wasn’t believable either back then… Michael Burnham being Ethan Hunt to restore the Federation… It depends on its execution.

TonyD

Michael Burnham is taking over Mission Impossible? :)

I think you meant Dylan Hunt; but yeah the idea of moving the show into a darker universe where Discovery becomes the only beacon of hope is downright depressing and a pretty sinister twisting of Trek’s core values of hope and optimism.

Also, by pushing Discovery into the future they have essentially removed Sarek, Amanda, Tyler, L’Rell, Mudd and just about everyone else we’ve met to this point from the board. Some of them may show up in the Section 31 show but even that appears to be a few years out if it ever shows up at all. Once again, you have to wonder if the writers really thought this whole time jump thru.

Garth Lorca

Yeah, sorry, Dylan Hunt, not Ethan :-)

The Section 31 show is probably set in the 33rd century as well now, as Georgiou was on board DISCO when they jumped into the future.

The only chance of getting those characters you mention back is by not staying in the future for good. But that would feel like utter betrayal to those who are avidly applauding this game-changing move.

Second option… Pike’s Enterprise series!

TonyD

Discovery’s returning to the 23rd Century would pretty much invalidate the whole point of this entire season and reintroduce all the canon violation issues the writers tried to address. I just can’t see that happening.

In spite of all the problems I had with the season’s storytelling, and in spite of my fear that the writers will do an equally mediocre job with a Pike series, I could not help but smile during those final scenes on the Enterprise at the end. Seeing Pike in the captain’s seat and Spock at his science station (complete with the familiar graphic on one of the screen) it all felt so cozy and homey.

Part of me would love to see a Pike show and part of me says enjoy that little bit you got because with this writing team wanting is probably better than having.

We’ll just have to see what happens.

Garth Lorca

A large portion of problems with DISCO’s writing is that they originally set out to reinvent Star Trek and the 23rd century. Stuff like the spore drive, the Klingon redesign and so on were clearly introduced to set that series apart from previous installments. It was mainly Fuller’s doing and since he left, people have tried to do the best they could to reconcile DSC with canon. These people were left with an enormous burden and I think they did a GREAT – yet not flawless – job at achieving that overall goal. So yes, I’d entrust them with Pike’s Enterprise at any time…

Trellium G

I have the same concerns. I will find it hard to believe the sphere data will magically transform Discovery into a ship that is comparable to what may exist so far in the future. All tech has its limitations with how far it can be upgraded or enhanced before it just needs to be replaced by the newer model. I’m also not on board with a bleak future setting either. That is not what Star Trek is about. It is supposed to be a utopian future.

Maybe they should have just called Discovery a reboot of Star Trek. They would have had the freedom to update the entire Star Trek universe without canon violations or having to fling it far into the future where it obviously will not belong.

Garth Lorca

“I’m also not on board with a bleak future setting either. That is not what Star Trek is about. It is supposed to be a utopian future.”

I partly disagree. Star Trek is best when is STRIVES towards a utopian future, a temporary set-back is nothing that wouldn’t fit. After all, the Andromeda concept was conceived by GR himself and could have become a follow-up to TMP in the early 80s, with Khan’s offsprings being the Nietzscheans.
Instead Harve Bennett took over and made TWOK and GR eventually developed his Phase 2 into TNG, but the Fallen Federation concept was on the table and was later made into AND by Majel Barret.
The concept was floating around as a Series Six concept shortly after ENT premiered again, but that never happened, probably because of AND. But now, two decades later, it might finally work. Not too sure myself either, but why not…

DSC is heavy on elaborating on late 70s concepts. The ship itself is based on an early Phase 2 / TMP design for the Enterprise refit. So the Fallen Federation concept might actually be considered (and again, be very reminiscent of SeaQuest Season 3)…

AJinMoscow

I guess the Feds can keep the spore drive a secret forever. But, what about the Klingons?

Or the literal millions — if not billions — of people who know about the ship’s existence? They’re not all going to just be like, “Nah, dude, what’s a spore drive? Michael who?”

Stoopid.

Tiger2

You heard Spock though, it would be an instant court martial for anyone who brings up her name again. My guess is Section 31 will eliminate any Klingon who accident spells out her name in an e-mail. They are never to be heard from again.

Untold numbers of people who are neither court-martialable nor subject to Klingon action without the outbreak of another war know about Michael Burnham.

This was poor writing on a scale that is almost impressive. And THIS was their big swing-for-the-fences method of bringing the series into alignment with canon?

Ludicrous.

Tiger2

Yeah I know, I was kidding. Its almost insulting how they did it lol. But whatever, we’re going to the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, gotcha. But that’s a semi-plausible explanation within the story, as they are trying to tell it! Not that’s it’s plausible, but that the writers would think it was plausible. Man.

As regards going to the future, my big hope is that since the third season is obviously going to connect with the Chabon-scripted Short Treks episode, maybe Chabon has laid out some sort of groundwork that they will be following. Beyond that, I’m kind of entirely out of hope for this series.

Plus, hey, maybe Aldis Hodge will come back.

Maybe that is Section 31’s true purpose as a secret organization: make people forget about Discovery…

Tiger2

I’m sure some fans would be completely on board with that. ;D

Martin

The spore drive was still secret. Pike didn’t know about it until Ep 2

J.S.

What bothers me is that this “spore drive is confidential” is so human-centric. How come NO OTHER RACE of humanoids invents it ever? So many civilizations managed to invent a warp-travel on their own, why not this?

The other races were only looking in science manuals and whatnot, whereas humans had the ingenuity to look for inspiration in fantasy comics and fanfic forums and other modes of made-up hooey. Stamets simply out-“thought” them all!

Garth Lorca

The Spore Drive was a MAJOR humiliation and dishonorment for the Klingons as a people. You betcha they are going to lock the truth about DISCO even further away than the Federation.

ML31

Seems like they would be more apt to try and come up with their own version of the spore drive and use it to expand their empire. Nothing stopping them for doing so. Which again, is a problem with setting the show in the 23rd century.

Golly gee but that was awful. A few excellent grace notes — Wilson Cruz’s big scene, every second of Anson Mount, the wormhole effects, etc. — but otherwise, this was a monumental letdown even compared to my moderate expectations. I have zero confidence in a third season. I’m not even sure I want a Pike series anymore, since the odds of good writers being hired for it seem negligible.

Yuck.

ThatNuttyFanboy

That’s your prerogative. :)

Why won’t they just let me live?

Totally agree. This episode made NO sense to me.
By that, I mean there was a total lack of common sense.

JAGT

You’re absolutely wrong about one major point here! Wilson Cruz’s scene sucked and I’m gonna tell you why: In season 1, Culber was introduced as a likeable, well-rounded character that was a medical officer first and Stamets’ partner second. Sure, they shared loads of nice heartwarming scenes in that season, but you could totally see Culber being a guy who stands on his own two feet and enjoys a great deal of importance and respect as crew member. In Season 2 we see a different Hugh Culber and what sort of character is he? – Well, he’s not really a character anymore. Every scene featuring the character, every bit of new info about him was solely related to his and Stamets relationship trouble. Culber in S2 is completely and utterly defined through his relationship with Stamets and his scene in this episode just hammered home exactly that point. Culber is now essentially the “token gay guy” – but no… that would be oversimplyfying things. It goes deeper than that: Almost every Culber/Stamets scene in S2 was either some sort of overly tearful reunion or overly tearful farewell (maybe except the scene where Geogiou uncomfortably hits on both characters, which didn’t sit right with me for entirely different reasons) – so how is anyone even supposed to care about one more farewell or one more reunion? Stamets at least had Reno as a foil for some other scenes during the season (most of them not dealing with relationship issues, mind you) but Culber has become nothing more than Stamets counterpart and that’s a poor way to handle any character, no matter if gay or not.

Trek in a Cafe

I’m not sure she hit on them. It seems like she was more interested in dominating them for her pleasure and was mistaken about what strength of character an open society brings. It could have been a fun fish-out-of-water moment, but it was quite bizarre.

JAGT

Yes, I found it bizarre, on-the-nose and there were some generally discomforting implications there (chiefly the implication that pansexuality is a “depraved” MU-thing and in some way more hedonistic than homosexuality). The best part about that scene was really Tilly’s reaction in the end.

Garth Lorca

And that’s why I was rooting for a more permanent farewell. Culber could have made a great addition to the Enterprise crew should the spin-off ever happen. He could have been like Miles O’Brian… a recurring character becoming a regular one in the next series. But yeah, the Stamets/Culber relationship has been done to death at this point.

However: maybe, just maybe, there was no Culber at all in that scene! Stamets could have hallucinated in a near-death scenario. The real Culber may be aboard the Enterprise after all. That scene felt too forced and bittersweet even by DISCO’s standards.

JAGT

“And that’s why I was rooting for a more permanent farewell”
Same here. Not because I didn’t like the character in general and not because I didn’t like the relationship as a whole (Rapp and Cruz do have excellent chemistry, make no mistake), but now I’m just wondering how much soap opera stuff we’ll still have to endure.

FLB

Glad I’m not alone in thinking that. I thought Stamets had died and that he was seeing Culber as a goodbye, much like the ending of Six Feet Under.

What I liked about Stamets and Culber in Season 1 was that they actually felt like a real-life couple. It wasn’t forced. I’m straight, but I remember thinking ‘Kiss him Goodnight, you fool’ in the scene where they were brushing their teeth together (I forget the name of the episode, but it’s the one with the remaining Stamets in the mirror), because that would have felt the natural thing to do.

I cna’t really argue with any of that. But I thought Cruz gave a very moving performance, personally.

ML31

My problem with the Stammets Culber thing is that neither character is someone I even remotely care about. This is not a same sex thing. It’s a Discovery thing. There is NO ONE on Discovery who is interesting enough to care about. The most interesting person was Saru who slowly became interesting then lost his threat ganglia and the ability for the audience to care about the character with it. Now that Pike’s gone what does Discovery have? A boring ship filled with boring cliches. Season 2 did get better but a large part of that was because of Pike. It could still work but I think season 3 has a VERY steep slope to climb.

John Moore

What do we have to look forward to in season 3?
All of the decent characters will not be returning with Burnham, Saru, Stamets, Tilly and Culber on their own in the future.
I can hardly wait.

Without Pike, I believe my ability to do anything but hate-watch this show has vanished. And yes, I know how pathetic it is to hate-watch shows. But there you have it.

blackmocco

I’ll bring the beer. My two Thursday night Trek-viewing buds have been far kinder to season 2 than I but even they were spewing venom by the end of last night’s.

ML31

My two Trek buddies who shared a CBS subscription with me bailed out after season one with no intention to return. They held that thought even after I told them the show got better. No one at work watches it either. Here is the only place I can talk to people who have watched the show.

Season 3A – The search for Gabrielle Burnham.
Season 3B – The Voyage Home (to the 23rd century)

Kevin Lee

-Lotta things to like in this one. There was certainly a surplus of eye candy in that 45-minute space battle.

-The Big E looked great in action. They really did a superb job with that new version of the ship.

-I loved the even-keeled demeanor Anson Mount gave to Pike in the heat of battle. Clear, calm, just everything you would want to see in a leader. It’ll be a shame to see him disappear from the series.

-Conversely, the Klingon dialogue on their ships was a rush, too. It sounded much more like the warriors we’ve come to know over the post-TOS franchise and less like the crazed cultists they were in season one.

-Where did the Enterprise have room for storing hundreds of shuttles and pods? Is it really a TARDIS?

-I thought the explanation for Discovery’s “disappearance” from canon was weak. There were far too many non-Starfleet personnel who knew of her to keep that buttoned down.

-I have just had enough of the tearful melodrama. I’m burned out on it because it’s been so overdone.

-Does Ricky Bobby know Spock stole his NASCAR sideburns? The make-up/hair department on this has been on point generally and I found it hard to see how they kind of slipped on that one detail.

-If the Enterprise bridge set was as heavy-duty as one cryptic poster here suggested, it still begs the question what show runners and developers are mulling.

Tiger2

“Conversely, the Klingon dialogue on their ships was a rush, too. It sounded much more like the warriors we’ve come to know over the post-TOS franchise and less like the crazed cultists they were in season one.”

I admit when L’rell said ‘Today is a good die to die’ and others said it with her, my heart sputtered a little! FINALLY getting back to classic Klingons!

purdueenginerd

What bugs me about the explanation of Discovery’s canon disappearance is they didnt really need to do it. The spore drive could have been written out of existence in a litany of ways that were interesting and believable. Despite that, they used the sledgehammer to pound discovery, Spocks familial ties, S31 into canon, whilst introducing new problems: Enterprise has a apparently a carrier’s worth of extra ships, repair bots for the hull, Why exactly would the Klingons help the federation at this point.

Tiger2

Maybe I’m confused but the spore drive is still in play, right? I think thats the issue, they DON’T want to write it out but to keep it on the show. THey only wanted to find a way they could keep it and not have people whine about it being in a century they knew it didn’t belong in…and this was one of their solutions.

Fred Javelina

It was mentioned an episode or two ago that Number One commandeered extra shuttles and had them all upgraded with phasers etc. Yes, scale isn’t exactly kept canon here – if the cargo bay can carry that many ships then it’s Kelvin-verse size. But when we see Michael skim over the saucer section in the Angel suit, it looks a lot smaller. Hull repair robots make logical sense, but did they have to make them look quite so… Wall-E-ish?

Greg

Well it looks as though we are going to see the start of the Borg.

What questions were answered (apart from us already knowing that Michael had to send the signals?).
This ep was all over the place with far too many questions.
1. Why did Cornwell not beam out of the room before it blew up? Enterprise’s transporters were online (that’s how they beamed Spock out from his shuttle further away).
2. Why did Michael had to fly a distance from the ship when they could have just beamed her there?
3. How do things revert closer to canon? Enterprise never have a fleet of drone weapons, worker repair bots and advanced fighter-shuttles with transporters in the past. It still has them.
4. Why does EVERYTHING about Discovery need to be kept a secret, including their crew? Why can’t Michael’s name be mentioned again? She is quite popular – you know, being Starfleet’s first mutineer, etc.
5. What does knowledge of the existence of the spore drive needing to be a secret have to do with threats to the timeline, etc?
6. Why not just detonate an antimatter torpedo from within Discovery to destroy the sphere data? Will avoid this lets strand it in the future nonsense.

Please enlighten me.

1. Because this show’s writers place an emphasis on false and unearned emotion over logic.
2. Also, she flew away to a spot where she stood around for what seemed like an hour and a half. How did the drones not just fly over and murder her a hundred times over?
3. They don’t.
4. Because the show’s writers are imbeciles.
5. Because Starfleet knows the spore drive isn’t canon, I guess…?
6. The all-powerful sphere data would presumably find some way to stop this. Couldn’t prevent its own self from dying, but beyond that, it can apparently do anything.

Jay

I thought Admiral Cornwell was Control. No one noticed the scratchy voice before she said good bye?

Trekee

I saw that as her wanting a heroic ending. Section 31 was her watch, all of this was her responsibility in the end. As soon as she looked at the torpedo she was going to go in there and save the day or die trying. However, she waited a very long time twiddling with settings before telling Pike the only thing do do was pull that lever. She’d been looking at it for ages and I’m sure they have ropes on the enterprise, even if Starfleet belts haven’t been invented yet. Pulling the lever and jumping under the door, any number of fancy pants solutions could have come up but she waiting until it had to be her that was the hero.

Thorny

1. Intra-ship beaming might not yet exist. We didn’t see it until TOS “Day of the Dove” and it was considered very dangerous then.
2. Shields were up. Yes, this excuse comes-and-goes as needed by the story.
3. The Drone weapons were presumably a one-time addition by Number One. Probably at the expense of room for the exploration equipment the Enterprise would need for her five year mission(s).
4. Good question. No real explanation.
5. It doesn’t. Spock exaggerated to the Mystery Admiral to present a possible excuse to make this whole affair go away. Said Admiral presumably takes it and runs with it.
6. Or lob a photon grenade or two. Or send in a guy to rip out the memory chips, a’la “2001: A Space Odyssey”. No rational explanation for this one, either.

Garth Lorca

Wow! I’m virtually blown away. That was a truly cinematic experience, visually on par with the Kelvin movies.

I also liked the way they wrapped up the loose ends on the Spore Drive issue, the existence of Discovery and the question why nobody ever mentioned Michael, not even Spock.

However on the downside of things, the episode created even bigger problems as far as Starfleet tech is concerned. Cool, they were able to explain the canonical non-existence of the Spore Drive and can pick that issue up in the 33rd century now, but in this very same episode, they introduced us to fighter squadrons stationed aboard the Enterprise and funny-looking automated repair drones, never to be seen anywhere again, not on TOS, the movies or even TNG and spin-offs…

Why would you do that? I don’t get it! The spore drive was a minor issue limited to the Discovery project, not unlike the “forgotten” Excelisor Transwarp drive, but attack squadrons and robotic repair units aboard the ENTERPRISE are a far larger continuity issue now if you ask me… Those aren’t mere visuals, that’s hard continuity content…

Anyway, looking forward to seeing the 33rd century. Maybe Georgiou’s Section 31 series will be set there as well. I still hope for a Pike series to pick up the 23rd century again.

I have many, many problems with that episode … but it truly did look almost feature-level in quality. Some of the gravity-challenged fight scene seemed off, but otherwise, pretty flawless stuff. CBS must have spent a small fortune on this season. About $750 of it on the writers, I’d say.

TrekkerChick

You’ll like the robotic repair units better when one of them pairs up with a gold-colored protocol droid, and hilarity ensues.

I forgot those. WTF was that mess? Great idea for a rebooted version of Trek; not supportable within existing canon.

ML31

Yep. This. Exactly. That is the difference between rebooting and sticking with prime. And again, I would have NO problem with a 23rd century reboot.

Boze

So the point of half of the red signals was to bring more cannon fodder into a battle that could’ve been entirely avoided by, say, Burnham going back and turning the Control off *before* it gained sentience?

So photon torpedo explosions can now be blocked by a blast door? Good thing we know that, for we’re now gonna build ships with hulls made of nothing but blast doors.

So Klingons could bother to send only two ships to “protect their future”? No budget for more CGI I guess.

So a huge distributed computer network becomes “dead in the water” when you lure one of its many peripheral devices into a magnetized containment chamber?

So Control didn’t have any backup copies anywhere?

So the plan to escape Control by travelling to the future was still performed even though it was no longer necessary to escape Control, because…?

So Starfleet ship bulkheads now drop brickwall rubble all over the floor when you hit the ship? (But I have to admit, that practical effect with combat scene in a rotating corridor was very much cool.)

So they have the historical San Francisco landmark defaced with solar panels, even though 23rd century Earth has fusion and other sources of basically unlimited energy?

So the promised “reconciliation with canon” is that everybody was forbidden to speak about Discovery ever again? Okaaay. I suggest we follow the suit. Discovery, what Discovery?

So even after the great canon reconciliation, there’s still life-like holograms a hundred years before they should? There’s still spore drive and time suit and autonomous android bodies? There’s still full-fledged sentient AI nary a decade before The Ultimate Computer?

So this is all we get for sticking with this mess for fourteen episodes? This is the grand finale – a whirling pot of shuttlepod soup sprinkled with finely chopped phaser fire? They really have no idea what is the point of Star Trek, do they?

I’m still kinda looking forward to season 3, though! Now that they are in the future, they can finally stop pretending to respect Star Trek – and without the constraints of Star Trek universe, it could be a nice space adventure. Mindless, thoughtless, inconsequential. Kinda like the first two seasons, but without messing with Star Trek canon. ;)

“They really have no idea what is the point of Star Trek, do they?”

Not the faintest. And what’s worse than that is, they either think they do, or they pretend that they do. I’m lame and have no life, so I’ll say it this way: it sickens me what’s happened to Star Trek. It doesn’t speak well of me that that is my reaction, but that’s my reaction alright.

Michael Hall

Your point in paragraph #4 is invalidated by #5-6. Just sayin.

Remember when Saru’s sister showed up for no good reason and that was supposed to be cool?

Tiger2

And can fly space ships in a few days even though she’s never been in one before.

Thorny

I also remember when Saru (a member of a primitive society with no obvious technology) was able to disassemble some alien gizmo and turn it into a subspace communicator in an evening or two. Saru also speaks a bunch of languages. Evidently they’re all very bright and fast learners.

Tiger2

Even if you can believe that, I have a harder time believing the Ba’ul, who mistrusted the Kelpians so much they were creating wholesale genocide of them for thousands of years and purposely kept them from developing, is now giving them their own ships to pilot just a week later lol. The whole thing is just ludicrous on its head but DIS has done worse. ;)

ML31

The Klingons showing up I understand. It was cliche but I get it. But the Kelpiens? That was ludicrous.

MysticalDigtial

…that was months, not an evening or two.

ML31

And I’ve been in a lot of airplanes and even understand the concepts of how they work but I still think I would have a tough time flying one.

purdueenginerd

6 weeks ago they were farmers. Today they’re capable of interstellar battle!

Denny C

That’s right out of (oh, man) Battlefield Earth.

Vulcan Soul

“Remember when Saru’s sister showed up for no good reason and that was supposed to be cool?”

Because she’s a Mary Saru (tee hee!)

Frank, Germany

What a great season finale and season! Thank you Alex Kurtzman and team for that great season and bringing Star Trek back in such a bold way! I can’t wait to see more! And don’t forget to add the Pike series to your list of projects! ;-)

Say, they never really explained WHY Control wanted to kill everything, did they?

I mean, not just all the humans and Klingons and Vulcans and whatnot, but all the trees and kitties and targs and earthworms and puffer-fish and whatever Arex was and, like, EVERYthing?

Why, though?

I’ll let that slide in a Terminator movie. Can’t do it in a Star Trek series, especially when it’s the focus of an entire season.

Soren

There were many poignant, touching, heartfelt moments in this. I do remember though that the season 1 finale had some similiar vibes but once season 2 began grinding, plodding, laboured story telling seemed to sometimes return. I’d settle for more tales made with poise like this but spread throughout the season, rather than just ODing on it in the last episode.

Captain Sisko

I enjoyed it a lot. I had the same thoughts about Tyler and the Klingons. LRell probably exposed him to only loyal followers. She is ‘Mother’ now. Section 31 is going to be a dope show. It should be fun. Maybe Georgiou beamed off Discovery before it went into the worm hole? Fighter ships were introduced on DS9. Remember the Maquis? TNG used them in their Maquis episode and I think they had some in First Contact. The repair bots were cool. I think you have to concede that Federation tech was always in flux. You have to modernize the TOS aesthetic.Is there a Starfleet 950 years in the future? Thats my question. It should be interesting. Did Sareks family have any descendents? Spock did get married on TNG. I believe Season 3 may be the most important for this series.

Thorny

They’ve said Yeoh would be recurring on Discovery Season 3, so no, Georgiou probably didn’t beam off the ship. She’s with them in the 33rd Century. Maybe she’s the only one to come back.

Hat Rick

It is difficult to recall a faster-paced, more complex episode of Star Trek than this one. All of the cast offered excellent performances, and the special effects were truly spectacular. All in all, this was a worthwhile, exciting, and innovative episode exemplifying some of the best features we have come to expect from premium television.

Although, at least at first glance, there were plot points that were difficult to explain, the episode had heart and soul, giving audiences a mix of quasi-scientific speculation and breath-taking action to which there is literally no equal in television, and which can only be seen in tentpole feature films.

There are, as some will point or have already pointed out, anomalies in the plot, such as: how the time suit could make multiple jumps when the premise was that it could make only one; how many crew members were there aboard the Discovery toward the end; whether there were any transfers back to the Enterprise after the death of “Leland”; and whether Discovery’s mission to the future was necessary after Control had just been defeated.

I intend to enjoy this episode for what it is: A great adventure and a season finale befitting a series I have looked forward to viewing every single day a new episode has been offered.

Onward and upward to Season 3.

Hat Rick

Addendum: I will offer an explanation for the time crystal burnout plot anomaly: The burnout occurs only if the time jump is extreme (or if to the future), which would be the case if it is used to jump 950 years into the future; the time crystal would not (and did not) burn out if used in more moderate jumps, as in the case with the various jumps backward in time and the back to the present. (However, admittedly, this proposed explanation still does not explain how the last, and seventh, signal was possible.)

Awesomesauce

At the end of the episode I was more intrigued where the story of the Enterprise will go, then the story of Discovery and I’m a fan of Discovery.

Trellium G

The same here. It was a great set up for the continuing voyages of the starship Enterprise. It felt like Discovery was canceled the way they ended the season and set up the next. The 1000 year old ship in the future, isn’t the show I want to see. I loved Discovery and will miss it.

Here’s to hoping for a new show aboard the Enterprise.

Awesomesauce

It almost felt as if the Pike show alredy had it’s pilot episode.

TonyD

That ending was both entertaining and utterly bizarre. On the one hand it sure seemed like a setup for a Captain Pike series; and the use of the original Alexander Courage score weaving in and out thru the end credits reinforced that further. On the other hand it could have simply been one last fond farewell to Pike & crew as they go off on their own adventures. My heart is hoping for the former but my brain is inclined to think it’s the latter.

Either way, the complete absence of Discovery was definitely a little strange. Maybe it’s the writers attempt and a mild cliffhanger.

Vulcan Soul

“At the end of the episode I was more intrigued where the story of the Enterprise will go, then the story of Discovery and I’m a fan of Discovery.”

Because Pike got that special awesomesauce in him that Mary Burnham will never have! Neither in the 23rd century, nor in the 33rd ;)

Awesomesauce

I bet that at STLV 2019 Kurtzman will announce the Enterprise show with Pike. Like Tom Paris would say: let’s start a pool 😎😉

J.S.

I bet there will be no Kurtzman to announce anything by that time.

Awesomesauce

What if you are wrong as moste of you nay sayers are in the end? Pretend as if you newer said it?

J.S.

“What if you are wrong as moste of you nay sayers are in the end? ”

Interesting statistics you got there regarding the “nay sayers”, may I see them? I hope you also have a similar research with regards to the “yay sayers”.

“Pretend as if you newer said it?”

Oh, that is interesting, I wonder what does “pretending as if somebody never said it” entail, especially in a static online discussion :)))

MysticalDigtial

Please, he has a 5 year contract and they are giving him like half a dozen Star Trek shows, he’s going to be around for a while, and given how great Discovery has been (I have friends pissed at me that I couldn’t talk about this episode with them at first because I missed it the day of, but oh man did they love it), we should be so lucky to have him around even longer than his contracted time.

JAGT

Ahhh… I just don’t friggin know. So much to like about that episode, but I really don’t know whether it outweighs what I didn’t like. Since I haven’t read through the comments yet and it’s likely that basically everything has already been said, I’m just gonna point out some three examples. I’ve noticed, while viewing, that the things I liked were mainly just some visual cues, like the old-school continuous phaser beams and stuff of the like (even though I wondered, why Discovery would also suddenly just start to fire its phasers like that, when it didn’t before). But the whole battle sequence was just a MESS. I found it downright impossible to tell what was going on. And once again, a couple of the great big solutions appeared so pedestrian: They had all those red signals which they simply couldn’t figure out in the beginning of the season (a premise I really liked). So where did they come from? – Well, Michael just simply MADE them… in other words: She just pushed the “red signal”-button on the suit or what? That felt so stupid.
I can’t shake off the feeling that the writers’ room shakeup really dragged the second half of the season down. There was a great deal of buildup, a whole lot of nice, fresh ideas, but so little pay-off in the end – except for the sheer “loudness” of everything happening.

JAGT

one more point on the positive side: Say what you will about the makeup, but at least in Season 2 the writing for everything concerning Klingons was way more in line with the Klingons I know and love. Apart from the fact that Tyler really shouldn’t have been anywhere near Klingon space and somehow they’d still have to get to the sort of cold war-like scenario we saw on TOS, the few scenes on the Klingon bridge were just delightful! Once again, Mary Chieffo as L’Rell was a total scene stealer there – just the kind of bada$$ Klingon commander one would hope for.

FLB

I wouldn’t mind no more Klingons, but Mary Chieffo has been a highlight of both seasons.

ML31

A decent summation. A lot to like but at least an equal amount to NOT like. Which is why this season was better than season 1. Almost nothing to like in season one.

PaUl

Pike, Spock & No1 on the Enterprise is the big problem they were too good a combo and need at least a season or 2 in their own show now!

Alf in pog form

If MacGyver was in the torpedoed room he would have got a brick (or similar heavy object) tied it to a small rope and tied the other end to the door closing lever. Then stand outside the blast door, throw the brick into the room and let the weight of the brick pull the lever down. But hey, if the suicide solution used by Admiral Cornwall stops her from appearing magically out of nowhere every third episode then I’m ok with this.

kmart

Just going by the images accompanying the article, I have to ask: is image 16 of the ship in dock supposed to be an actual final from the aired show? Cuz it sure just looks like concept art to me (as does the GG bridge a couple pics down.)

I’m really coming to believe that visual standards for credibility have been vented out the airlock lately.

JAGT

Yes, it is on the show and for some reason that shot in particular looks a whole lot blurrier than a great couple of shots preceding it (a nice little pan around the drydock, giving the audience a sense of scale that even TMP couldn’t deliver). There are also two or three shots during the battle sequence that looked extraordinarily blurry.

I’m quite sure that has nothing to do with “visual standards for credibility” (what is that supposed to mean anyway? Sounds like wankery. How about we just call it an ugly shot?), cause I can’t see anyone on the VFX team being responsible there. It looked like some sort of compression issue related to streaming services.

kmart

By and large, I’ve found the last decade of VFX space stuff on shows I’ve seen — INTERSTELLAR and GRAVITY excluded — to be a huge step backwards with all the flares and mushy imagery like it was shot through a screen door. That’s what I mean by visual standards of credibility — as in, they seem to have been abandoned in favor of trendiness.

Why much of SPACE COWBOYS and EVENT HORIZON and DEEP IMPACT from two decades back look far superior to most of what we see today in terms of ships in space just staggers me. They seem like refinements from Kubrick’s 2001 and the original STAR WARS moving forward, enhancing model driven shows with digital compositing, while this kind of thing — what I refer to as computer graphic illustration instead of computer generated imagery, because it looks more like artwork than a decent rendering of a physical object in an actual realm — seems like a mega-step backwards, like going from 35mm film to pre-Alexa or pre-Red digital (which is what we suffered through in the first decade of this century with regular live-action movies.)

Not saying there isn’t excellent and/or credible work being done — just saying I’m not seeing it here, and in a lot of other places.

JAGT

Ah yes, I see what you mean. I agree – in the Kelvinverse films and Discovery, space has always been a shiny luminiscent backdrop instead of vast, unexplored nothingness (and that’s coming from more of a visual storytelling perspective there). There’s so much visual input, so much stuff going on at all times, that a lot of potential excitement just gets lost in the haze and the true “beauty shots” get buried under so many wannabe-beauty shots. And there were beautiful shots in Discovery’s second season (more than in the first), but on the other hand there was also a huge load of indistinct pseudo-eye candy.
But considering that, I’m surprised that you would single out that one specific shot, which – while inexplicably blurry, as I’ve pointed out – was still rather “classic”.

Vulcan Soul

“I’m really coming to believe that visual standards for credibility have been vented out the airlock lately.”

kmart, they did! This entire “amazing battle sequence” that seemed to outlast an hour looked entirely and fantastically unbelievable, like Marvel on steroids AND a shoestring budget!

kmart

As entertaining as ORVILLE’s big eye-candy battle was a month back, it still wasn’t orchestrated to ebb and flow, so you get kind of numb to the spectacle after awhile. Also the fact that everything blows up with flames in vacuum still bothers me, just like when I was a teen seeing STAR WARS. I’m guessing this is going to be a LOT more of the same?

DeanH

As I wrote on a previous story thread, I was not exactly sure what I watched last night. Was it an Enterprise Pike pilot show OR Disco morphing into a Voyager-like series with Discovery visiting strange new worlds 900 years into the future. This morning I have come to the conclusion, when it comes to Star Trek anything can happen, so I was watching both. IMO the finale was good, bordering on very good but as always, the writing leaves holes in an otherwise good story. A couple of major plot/writing issues – the most irritating question was why Discovery left even though Leland and control were destroyed??? I see Trekmovie.com asked the same thing but I guess one could argue it was predestined – there were seven signals so the last signal from the future had to take place but editors could have had them jump to the future before Leland’s demise and voila, no issue. The other major question, why was Ash allowed on the Chancellor’s ship in full view of the crew and others without throwing the Empire into complete chaos???!! As for fan service platitudes, dealing with those naysayers who have holography issues was not needed. DS9 didn’t have any issue with using holographic communication on an old broken down space station, even though the pride of Starfleet Enterprise D and E were not. The reason it wasn’t on TOS is simple – half a century ago, TOS producers didn’t have the budget for it OR they didn’t envision it! No need to pander to those complaints. Those issues aside, the finale stillm managed to do what a good cliffhanger should. Make you want to see what happens next. Of the two scenarios I noted above, I have come to the conclusion, sooner or later we will see BOTH. Unfortunately we will have to wait at least 11-12 months for S3 so in the meantime, bring on Picard.

FLB

That was my initial reaction as well. Now, I’m more curious as to whether the sales pitch for the Pike series will be successful. Anson Mount says they need to get ‘creative’, which is letting me think his agent is going for the gold ot that he’s tied to something else.

CmdrR

As feared, a lot of the plot points got resolved with mumbled dialogue or just forgotten. I still do not get how they saw the red lights, but then waited for the red lights… or why Spock went nuts when NO ONE ELSE who was expose to timey-whimey stuff went nuts.

The visual effects were cool, giving a nod to 2001, TMP, BSG, and even Battle of the Planets.

What good would a blast door do against a torpedo that blasts everything? Shouldn’t the Enterprise be a cloud of debris and one pristine blast door? Also, why is there a blast door inside the ship?? Also, how does Pike get to watch Cornwell get fried? Who puts a window in a blast door?

I won’t say this episode was bad. It hit the emotional points, which I guess is the writing staff’s only priority.

Reading some of the comments, I guess I’m not the only one who felt like we were watching an episode of the Pike-Number One-Spock show. The much more intriguing Enterprise crew stepped all over Discovery’s band of plucky heroes… and I’m fine with that.

SpiderBat

Favorite comment: “Who puts a window in a blast door?” The same dumb writers who put only one manual override handle on the space side of the door.

J.L.J.

I know! One of the things that was so jarring during the scene it removed me from it. They showed the handle and I screamed to my wife, “Seriously?! Would they never need to close it, you know, FROM THE OTHER SIDE?!”

Michael Hall

The window was transparent aluminum, therefore not a structural deficit. As for the manual release, I assume there was one on the other side of the door, but had been damaged and was inoperative. Better to ask why they couldn’t just beam her out, but it’s very easy to nitpick these things to death.

Michael Sacal

The TVLine recap had Number One’s name as “Anna”, which I thought would have been disapointing. I haven’t seen the episode yet, but when I do I’ll make sure to pay close attention to what she’s called.

TG47

Una not Anna Michael Sacal.

Una as in a word from another language that translates as the number : one.

There have been a few different names given as the ‘real name’ of the character in Trek-lit.

She’s also given a background of coming from a math and computing focused planet.

But Una or Una with a last name, are most frequently seen.

Pike likes to play with the her name – literally One – and her role as first officer, or Number One in some naval traditions.

Can’t say her big-footing Detmar’s technical explanation of their tactical objectives as pilots fits in any way with her cool math-loving character… quite the opposite in fact.

And a bit of a disservice to Roddenberry’s 1960s acknowledgement of women’s hidden roles as literal ‘human computers’ in the early days of the space program.

PaulB

@TG47: “And a bit of a disservice to Roddenberry’s 1960s acknowledgement of women’s hidden roles as literal ‘human computers’ in the early days of the space program.” That is a massive bit of historical revision you’re doing. Roddenberry didn’t acknowledge any such thing, and Number One wasn’t intended as any such thing.

You’re trying to rewrite Roddenberry’s actions through a post-Hidden Figures lens, giving him credit for something that simply was not done. Nice idea, though.

TG47

PaulB – It’s hard to know certainly unless there happens to be something in the archive. (Would be something to search for…

That said, Roddenberry definitely had contacts in the program as well as served in wartime in the air force.

The ‘walking computer’ takes on a very different meaning when one knows that women who were code-breakers or who did the orbital and launch calculations were actually called ‘computers’ in that era.

It seems a lot less of a reach for him to have created a women’s rôle that he knew existed, than to have it as pure coincidence.

PaulB

TG47 – There is nothing in published Trek information to support your assertion. If it’s there, you should be able to find it and provide it. It’s not there because you are projecting a modern mindset onto Roddenberry’s 1960s mentality, with no evidence to support you.

None of this is a mystery. There are plenty of books in which you can read this stuff. A great one is “The Making of Star Trek”, which was written during the production of TOS and shows the thinking behind the original pilot and the show.

For example, Number One was described by her looks first, her abilities second, in the character description in the original show outlne: “[Number One] is female. Almost mysteriously female, in fact–slim and dark in a Nile Valley way, age uncertain, ne of those women who will always look the same between years twenty and fifty. An extraordinarily efficient space officer, ‘Number One’ enjoys playing it expressionless, cool…”

The “walking computer” line of dialogue was an insult, not a compliment. Not a reference to NASA’s women mathematicians. She was not portrayed as a human computer, and the insult was meant to say that she is cold and emotionless, not phenomenally talented at mathematics.

Think about it. The movie “Hidden Figures” is called “Hidden Figures” because people were NOT talking about the women in the space program. Otherwise, they would not be “hidden.” They certainly were not on Roddenberry’s mind in 1964-65 when he created the character. He didn’t create a “women’s role that he knew existed.”

Professor Spock

Discovery goes into oblivion. She will be missed. Discovery didn’t have to go to the future but they did it to protect history. They want to protect the timeline. The sphere data is too dangerous, even for Starfleet to know.

Spiked Canon

hunh?

CmdrR

The final red burst is 51,000 light years away. Did Michael jump back 51,000 years in time to set it off?

Tiger2

Yes!!!! Or no? I’ve given up trying to make sense of this story line now. All I care is it got us a showing going (very) forward again.

TonyD

If the people on Enterprise are seeing the red burst with the naked eye then yes, she would have had to travel 51,000 years into the past and the light from the burst would have then taken 51,000 years to reach Earth.

Did the writers take that into account? Who knows?

Spiked Canon

they aren’t “seeing it”

Michael Hall

Maybe that was a subspace effect. Not the first time Trek has blown the concept that light doesn’t travel infinitely fast, though. Remember when Soran shoots his missile at the sun in GENERATIONS, and they see it explode almost immediately? And don’t get me started on the “Hobus supernova” in Trek 2009, that managed to threaten the entire galaxy in real time.

Thorny

That 51,000 ly thing happened twice! First to guide Discovery to Terralysium to find New Eden. Then when the Enterprise picked up the signal meant for Spock at the end. Clearly some sort of subspace effect at work, usually seen to allow starships to speak to Starfleet Command in real time, despite hundreds of light years away.

And unless the Discovery was already in the neighborhood for all the other signals, then detecting those signals at Xahea, Hiawatha, etc. was also faster than light phenomenon.

The one thing that really doesn’t add up… at all… is the second Terralysium signal if Burnham was 950 years in the future.

Spiked Canon

no, the sensors picked it up

Sensors picked up a signal from 950 years in the future?

Spiked Canon

Dam good sensors hunh?

J.S.

She could’ve jumped into “present” to send that signal. The time crystal apparently doesn’t burn out and the writers don’t give a f.

Obviously, even subspace communication isn’t that fast. MAYBE she jumped 51000 years into past to send it. Now *that* would actually make some sense, but I doubt the writers thought of it.

Niclovestrek

No, while wormhole was open she sent the signal. She didn’t actually jump to present. She remained in the future.

Thorny

“No, while wormhole was open she sent the signal”

Then why did it take four months for the signal to appear to the Enterprise?