Review: ‘What We Left Behind’ – The ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’ Documentary Blu-ray

By: Dénes and Timothy House

What We Left Behind was first conceived by Star Trek: Deep Space Nine showrunner Ira Steven Behr as a way to help the actors involved in the show feel better about the reception it had received. When DS9 first aired, it was a show ahead of its time that bucked the trends in the television industry, even within the Star Trek franchise. Fans were initially leery of the show’s darker tone and the fact that it was set on a space station rather than on a starship, exploring space. As a result, some of the funnier parts of the documentary involve the actors reading viewer responses “Mean Tweets”-style, many of which brutally slammed the show and even the actors’ individual characters. At the time it was made, studio executives were nervous about anything that deviated from the traditional Trek “house style,” and continually second-guessed the writers and producers, who persisted in making the show that they wanted to make despite the constant challenges.

Ira Steven Behr talks with Wallace Shawn (Zek)

But the documentary took on a life of its own, in large part because producing it required crowdfunding. The resulting film is a piece designed to appeal to the two target audiences: those involved in the show’s production, and die-hard fans of the show. At times, it feels very “inside baseball.” If you have not followed What We Left Behind‘s journey to the screen, a lot of its contents may feel alien to you, as it were. But, if you are a long-time “Niner,” this will be a welcome trip down memory lane, and you will learn things you never knew before.

Of special interest to fans of the show is a writers’ reunion. Five of DS9’s key writers were brought together to brainstorm and break down a theoretical season eight, episode one of the show. These sequences, spread throughout the film in a somewhat jarring manner, are fascinating and a lot of fun to watch, especially if you’re interested in how a team of writers works together. It’s also full of surprises. Deep Space Nine as a religious sanctuary? Nog as a Starfleet Captain? A new Starfleet vessel designed by John Eaves? It’s very cool, but as Ira Steven Behr says, just don’t get too comfortable. It’s Deep Space Nine. Anything can happen.

Illustrations of the hypothetical 8th season are shown, like this one with Captain Nog.

Because the documentary focuses almost exclusively on interviewing people involved in the production of the show and its fans, it doesn’t have a lot of outside perspective. It would have been nice to hear from more objective television historians, or producers of rival shows, or maybe even folks who didn’t wind up liking the show. There is one person interviewed in the special features who said he didn’t like it, but he’s the exception. Because of all this, the documentary can feel a bit self-congratulatory in spots.

On the other hand, some of the best parts are when folks involved were allowed to express their frustrations and heartbreaks. Marc Alaimo (Gul Dukat) talks about his anxieties that resulted from a lack of positive feedback from the writers, and in the documentary’s most poignant section, Terry Farrell (Jadzia Dax) talks candidly about the circumstances surrounding her departure from the show. While the producers are proud of the way the show handled most contemporary social issues, they give themselves less than stellar marks for their handling of sexual identity and LGBTQ+ characters.

Marc Alaimo speaks candidly to Ira Steven Behr

We first saw the film during its first limited release in theaters through Fathom Events, on a big screen with surround sound and dozens of fans, and it was a magical experience. The film is shot in glorious high definition, and (nearly) every scene used from the show has been remastered to match. It looks gorgeous in ways that are hard to describe; it almost looks like a different show. Of paramount interest (and to much fanfare) is a fully remastered CGI space battle scene from the sixth season episode “Sacrifice of Angels,” which is immersive and explosive and awesome. Our recommendation is that you do your best to watch the home video release in conditions that replicate the theatrical experience as closely as possible. Invite your friends over, watch it on as big a screen as you can, and crank up the volume. You’ll be glad you did.

The “Sacrifice of Angels” huge starship battle was re-rendered in HD for the documentary.

Our version of the Blu-ray is the Special Edition version of the home video release, available exclusively from the Shout! Factory webstore. A standard retail version and a backer-exclusive version also exist. The Special Edition contains a second disc featuring an interview with Dennis McCarthy and Kevin Kiner, composers of the music for the show and the documentary, and an extended version of a roundtable look at the making of the doc, which appears in shorter form on the first disc and was included at the end of the theatrical release. (TrekMovie previously published an article detailing all the special features on every edition of this release.)

Special Features

This edition of the Blu-ray contains a staggering seventeen deleted sequences from the film, as well as seven additional featurettes of varying lengths and quality of content. Some highlights include an alternate introduction featuring a TV historian and the mysterious “Mr. F,” humorously looking at the history of the show, and more clips of testimony from fans recorded at Star Trek Las Vegas, on the streets of Los Angeles, and submitted online.

Ira Steven Behr talks with “Mr. F”

The best of the deleted scenes include “The Toughest Episode,” which gives you a deep appreciation of the hardships involved in filming a makeup-heavy action show on a tight budget and an even tighter schedule; “Nog’s Sisko Encounter,” where Aron Eisenberg (Nog) movingly talks about what it’s like to work with Avery Brooks (Benjamin Sisko) as an actor; “The Death of Baseball,” a moving tribute to writer and co-creator Michael Piller and his creative process; “The Gift of Anger,” detailing a memorable experience on the set of “Far Beyond the Stars,” one of the series’ best episodes; “One Last Punch,” in which Marc Alaimo tells a jaw-breaking story of his last day of filming; and “Those Fuzzy Tribbles,” which is exactly what you’d expect, a loving tribute to our personal favorite episode, “Trials and Tribble-ations.” These deleted scenes and many more are the best part of the special features, and quite enjoyable.

There’s an “Intro from Ira and the Gang,” which basically tells you what the special features are; “Behind the Scenes of the Variety Photoshoot,” a montage of DS9 actors reuniting and hugging while dressed in immaculate outfits; the theatrical trailer for the doc; and “A Musical Reunion,” a fantastic conversation between two gifted composers on their process and mutual admiration.

The roundtable look at the making of the documentary, which appears in abbreviated form on the first disc and a more extended version on the second, is worth watching once for folks who followed the documentary’s road to production. It offers a lot of behind-the-scenes detail, but is not something you’ll revisit again and again.

Packaging and Production

Shout! Factory’s release is packaged in a standard two-disc Blu-ray clamshell box, with the requisite wraparound liner. The liner features a small poster of the Deep Space Nine station on the inside.

The menu screens are nicely produced, although our copy had a programming glitch that showed up when trying to select many of the menu options. We are not sure if this problem is widespread or just endemic to our particular copy.

Bottom Line

As major fans of the show – Deep Space Nine is our favorite Trek series of all time – this is a must-have for our collection. We are glad to have seen it in the theater, but are also happy to be able to rewatch it from time to time. Certainly if you did not get the chance to see it in the theatrical release, the $30 price tag may seem steep, but that’s the equivalent of two tickets to the movies, and it’s worth the cost to see the interesting and satisfying interviews and content.

For more casual fans, some may find that the documentary feels a bit pieced together, reflecting the fact that it was filmed in bits over a period of several years. It doesn’t walk sequentially through the history of the show, so there are stories from all throughout the production placed side by side. If you know the show well, you’ll be able to follow it, but viewers who are new to DS9 may not be as clear on the sequence of events. To be fair, this was always the intention, and the documentary was never meant to be an objective view of the series for newcomers seeking an introduction to it.

Clearly, the documentary is a labor of love for the fans who crowdfunded it, Ira Steven Behr who produced and directed it, and the many artists who contributed to it. Fans who love the show will get a lot out of the film, and will enjoy the nostalgia and wonder of this trip down memory lane.

…Oh, and Nana Visitor (Kira Nerys) is a hoot, from start to finish. To the very, very finish. Watch the credits.


What We Left Behind is available now in the USA on Blu-ray and on digital (Amazon, iTunes, Google Play). It’s available internationally in many countries on iTunes. For a full list of countries click here.

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Sybok's Other Brother

Great. When can we expect DS9 in HD?

ST:EXP

About the same time random arbitrary censorship on the TrekMovie comments section ends.

unhappening

self described nerd thinks you need to go outside and get some sunlight

Sybok's Other Brother

Your pain runs deep apparently

ST:EXP

I gained strength from the sharing…

Jako

strange that your comment is still here?

Sam

That bird has flown.

Just Another Salt Vampire

The remastered TNG Blu-rays were apparently a major commercial disappointment which doomed it for the other series.

Legate Damar

On the one hand, that sucks. I would love to see DS9 in HD. On the other hand, I certainly wasn’t going to pay to buy TNG on Blu-ray when I can just watch it on Netflix, so I guess I’m in no position to complain.

Disinvited

Just Another Salt Vampire & Legate Damar,

Like NEMESIS before it, it doomed nothing. At worst, it delayed the remastering until TPTB feel the technological advances lowers the cost to make it cost effective.

Regardless of home releases, with ToS and TNG, it became clear that remastering to make old Trek shows “more commercial” for syndication to current broadcast and streaming outlets is a consideration and will be pursued. The only thing different is that it wont be financed on the back of unreasonable expectations of physical home video release sales. However, just as Discovery wasn’t financed with loans against future home video physical sales but saw physical home video release nonetheless, eventually all old Trek modified to make it more appealing to stream and broadcast viewers will see physical release.

Legate Damar

I know absolutely nothing about the industry, but I hope you’re right.

Just Another Salt Vampire

The guys over on the Inglorious Treksperts podcast did a show about this. One of them worked on the TNG remastering project and had direct knowledge of what the effects of its colossal failure was. Your assessment seems incorrect.

Sam

That’s been my impression as well. Fans feel otherwise, but DS9 will never be the mainstream series TNG was. Riding on the immediate aftermath of the TNG remastering project was the only way a similar project for DS9 was going to happen. Fans knew it, but would still rather wait for streaming.

I would nonetheless stlll like to know which Inglorious Treksperts installment this topic was discussed in. I am not familiar with that podcast.

Sam

Thanks for that. It does put the situation even more into context.

ML31

If fans are waiting for streaming reamastering it sure looks like they are going to wait a very long time. If DS9 ever gets a good remaster (like what we saw in the doc) they have at least one customer willing to pony up the money for the discs. That way I will always have them at my disposal no matter what behind the scenes business deals are made regarding who gets to stream them.

Disinvited

Of course they said that, CBS is NOT going to remaster DS9 with financing based on grandiose unreasonable expectations of future home video sales, as I already pointed out.

But their Trek products have to remain competitive in the syndication rerun markets they are already exploiting if they are to maintain value.

They are not going to shelve DS9 as Universal and the Irwin Allen estate TV productions edge it off the syndication airwaves with their remastered products. CBS will eventually respond to competitive syndication market pressures as they always have.

Disinvited

Just Another Salt Vampire,

I listened to the Inglorious Treksperts and they seem to acknowledge the pressure to upgrade exists. Even mentioned it might at the very least go the way of FARSCAPE.

I think you are conflating the one fellow’s conviction that physical home media is dead with “absolutely no market pressure exists for CBS to make DS9 more presentable in the syndication markets that they are already exploiting and will continue to attempt to so do.”

It’s NOT the same thing.

And know what I saw at my local Walmart?: Vinyl albums!

So I’m not expecting a total shutdown of physical media. Maybe you can whine that dirt cheap prices are disappearing, and the window for owning a complete HD DS9 box set for $50 is rapidly vaporizing. But I don’t think the possibility of something better than what’s currently available being released is totally out of the question. Paramount is back in the fold and they just can’t resist forcing fans to ntuple-dip.

Probably only make it available as part of an HD Trek box set that includes ToS, TNG, and ENTERPRISE.

And it won’t be as glorious as what was done for TNG, but it will include their improvements, such is the lot of the Trek fan.

ML31

I don’t know how many would buy but I have to say that if DS9 were remastered and ONLY available combined with TOS and TNG… I would not buy. I already have TOS and don’t want TNG. So it would not be worth it. Besides, I would doubt they would limit it to just combinations. If they go through the effort to remaster one would think they would also sell it as its own set.

Disinvited

ML31,

Well, it would all boil down to whether Paramount actually believes there’s no market for TNG and DS9. If so, they are only going to pack them into an “Ultimate” ToS collector’s set where they’ll justify including them as “see Admiral McCoy!”, “See the return of Kor and Kang on DS9! “, etc. for the dip.

Probably throw in Roddenberry’s Vault too…

Any studio that is still making decisions based on how many Blu-Rays (or indeed any physical media) they might sell is clearly not aware that is is 2019 and the day of physical media has long since come and gone.

Disinvited

Ryan Spooner,

Re: the day of physical media has long since come and gone.

The fact that CBS still saw fit to release DISCOVERY seasons 1 AND 2 on physical media is evidence to the contrary that it has “gone.”

Clearly, it is no longer a dominant market, but one that still exists. It’s just different and definitely can no longer finance such expensive upgrade projects solely by its lonesome.

But Gulf Western/Paramount/Viacom/CBS have always invested in upgrades to new media. Mono soundtracks were remastered into stereo then 5.1 surround, etc. DS9 is not going to sit on the CBS syndicated archive shelf while the likes of 1970s’ BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, BUCK ROGERS, LAND OF THE GIANTS, etc. get remasterings that bump it from the rerun syndication airwaves.

Pilotfred

I don’t understand why not still, ok bluray rays sale are down due to streaming services like CBS all access, so make it for CBS have it as a exclusive, then in about a year release it on bluray

jerr

buy TNG BluRay if you care.

ML31

Why should we have to buy an item we don’t want for the opportunity to buy an item we do?

Thorny

Good review!

Nit: “Sacrifice of Angels” was Season 6, not 7.

Quite right. Missed that in our copy edit. Fixed it now. Thanks!

Anduinel

“It would have been nice to hear from more objective television historians, or producers of rival shows, or maybe even folks who didn’t wind up liking the show.”

I’m glad they didn’t, really. As you mentioned, this is pretty much for the fans, and if you were a fan of DS9 – even are up through today – you’ve more than likely gotten an earful of the outside POV already. How it measures up against Gene’s vision, how it was never that popular in the ratings, the Babylon 5 controversy, and so on. I’ve heard more than enough of that for free; if I’m going to fork out for DS9 content, I’d like to just be able to celebrate the show.

Darmok

Totally agree. As one of the early backers to the project, this was always intended to be a love letter to the fans. We were gladly patient as it took a few years, but it was worthed. Congrats to all and especially to Ira Steven Behr to deliver on his promise.

JD is the man

Just watched it on iTunes.
Just loved it! Awesome. Never thought I would ever get to see something like this.
It brought back memories of a time not so long ago.
Also worth a rewatch!

$30 is the equivalent of two tickets to the movies? You need to go on discount day!

Ambassador Sybok

I don’t know…. by the time you hit the concessions stand, I can see it.

ML31

I never pay for concessions at the movie. When I was a teenager I even snuck snacks in!

Darfyn

As a backer who got the blu-ray , I’m very happy and satisfied with the
creative documentary provided by Ira Behr and Crew ! One for the Fans !

Legate Damar

I thought that they replaced that space battle with CG. I don’t really get why they did that. The models in the original always looked fine to me, even if they reused a bunch of footage, but that CG looked off to me.

DIGINON

The battle was CG in the original. DS9 started out using (mostly) models but switched over to mostly CG in later seasons.

Legate Damar

So is the battle in the documentary just an HD version of the original, or is it all new CG? Either way, it doesn’t look quite right to me.

DIGINON

They had to re-do the CG in HD. It is unclear how exactly this was done, i.e. whether they re-rendered the existing scene files in a higher resolution or whether they recreated the scene from scratch.
I also felt that some of the CG battle shots looked a little “off”. I cannot put exactly what was wrong about them. However, I can’t remember whether it actually looked better in the original version.

Jonathan

That CG scene is availible in HD on YouTube for several years, it was not re-rendered for this DS9 doc, which “only” add HD rematered scenes with actors..

DIGINON

Even if the scene has been available online for years the question remains whether it was recreated from scratch or re-rendered using original assets.

Jonathan
Ometiklan

I had this same question about what was off. I finally figured out it was the music. They either couldn’t afford to pay for the original score for the redone scene, or they just couldn’t get it worked out, so they have new music. While ok, it doesn’t have the same pace or sound or emotional impact (due to ingrained memories) that the original does.

Jako

is this confirmed info or just internet stuff?
Because if this is CG… its hellish good for the time they created it.
I mean look at the Space battles of DS9 and the ones in B5 … in B5 we clearly see that it is CG!

But this never occured in any DS9 battle! Not in a single second i thought: Damn, this looks CG!

Daniel

It’s $4.99 to rent from Amazon Prime, $12.99 to buy, Not blu-ray quality, obviously.

PEB

Bought it on Amazon Prime, watched it on my 4k tv and it looked blu-ray quality to me.

Mike Williams

It isn’t and doesn’t.

Spock Jenkins

I’m an Indiegogo backer, but I’ve received a Blu-Ray ( which I cannot play ) instead of a DVD – anyone here able to access the digital version online/and how?

Darfyn

It seems there were copyright problems with streaming , and the viewing window was very time-limited . If you search in your email under ‘The DS9 Documentary’ there is some information . Or if you email support , you may get a new digital link . I’m wondering myself !

Spock Jenkins

Thanks, will check it out!

trekker670

If you got the backer edition of the bluray, it should have included a DVD as well. If it didn’t, you should probably email support. Note the backer edition was the only bluray/dvd combo that was released. If you purchased it from a retailer, there are separate bluray and DVD releases and you might be able to do an exchange for the DVD version.

Spock Jenkins

Yep, mine is the BACKER’S EDITION – but I haven’t opened it yet since I saw it was a Blu-Ray. I will check it for the DVD version, thank you.

ML31

If you cannot play a BD but can play a DVD then the logical conclusion is that you have a DVD player and not a BD player. I would recommend you purchase one. They are awfully cheap these days and you will get far better quality. Unless you do not have an HD screen to view it on. Then it would seem you are out of luck.

Spock Jenkins

Thanks. Might have to play it on friend’s Blu-Ray player if it comes down to it!

Ometiklan

I finally got a Bluray player for the TNG remastered (and then TOS). Don’t know how a Trek fan can get along without one. ;)

Suggestion: Get an Xbox One S. Even if you don’t play games, its media capabilities are great. Netflix, Amazon Prime, Plex, and a 4K Blu-Ray player. Just make sure to buy a media remote for it, using an Xbox controller to control a Blu-Ray is weird.

Seriously chap, it’s 2019. How have you still not got a Blu-Ray capable playback device?

Soren

Did I miss it or was the original cut more unflattering on Marc Alaimo’s take on the charms of Gul Dukat? Seeing it at a convention last year I’m sure he raved a lot more on what a great nice guy he thought he was deep down.

Praetor Tal

Having seen only the DVD, I didn’t quite get what he was upset about exactly. The writers didn’t give him positive feedback, or they weren’t writing his character the way liked, or…?

unhappening

i know people who worked with him there… so i speak with somewhat solid backing without ratting peope out lol… but he’s a difficult person… he’s obviously awesome on screen but he’s a pain in the buttocks :) and you can see that especially when nana talks about him… it’s so funny

Marja

He was truly fantastic as Dukat, but I truly did not like his responses in the WWLB interviews. Seemed very egotistical [which quality worked well for Dukat] and rather spoilt.

Marja

I got the impression he was unhappy that Dukat and Kira did not have a relationship [other than hostile, that is]. It creeped me out a little bc it sounded like he really REALLY wanted to play those scenes with Nana Visitor. I think Visitor put her foot down and [rightly] insisted that Kira would NEVER sleep with Dukat, and Alaimo was peeved about it.

Praetor Tal

Ah, there’s the pith of it. Turns out the guy who played Dukat is kinda like him IRL.

Soren

Ouch. It did rather come across that way.

Alina Gordelli

And so do many of us in Marc Alaimo – the Real Gul Dukat FB group. Gul Dukat is our hero!

Praetor Tal

Oh, that wuvvable scamp / war criminal.

Calculon

When will the Blu-Ray get a release in the UK?

Xon

As far as I can tell nobody knows when the “B region” Blu-Ray version is going to be released. Which is a shame, I would like to buy a physical copy. I don’t understand why they didn’t make it region free.

Adam

The backer copies (which were also on sale at the Las Vegas convention) are region free. Though the main release is through Shout Factory, and all their stuff is region locked as they only distribute in North America.

Karl

Not sure, but it’s on the iTunes/Apple TV store to buy and rent. I don’t know how many of the BR extras are on digital though.

Adam

There’s been vague hints from the production team about international blu ray releases, but I think it’s still in the negotiation stage. So it’s likely, but don’t hold your breath. It’s available digitally though.

I’d suggest renting it digitally so you get to see the main documentary (which is very good), and holding off to see if it gets a wider release on Blu Ray for the special features if you like it. That’s what I’m doing.

Jim Chimmerly

I wanted to like the doc a lot more than I wound up liking it. The insight from cast and crew was priceless, but it’s Steven Behr’s ego smothers the life from this documentary. I mean, look at the Blu-ray cover, it is Behr holding DS9. He puts himself first in this documentary, and it ruins the feel of what was a heartfelt recollection from the cast and crew.

I will watch this again, there is great info included. DS9 is one of the most ground breaking shows but deserved more than an ego trip.

unhappening

i get what you are saying but behr WAS ds9… many helped of course but he is the dude… ive seen the doc and honestly know people who worked on it and he not only ran the show after piller left and then the show became what we all love but he also is the one who made the doc possible… seriously no behr no ds9 (as it is) and no doc… the story they tell is not just about the show but about the doc itself… would be like roddenberry on the cover or chris carter or george lucas…
**these are all just my opinions please no need to get mad at me

A DS9 documentary that downplays (or ignores) Behr would be like watching a documentary on Disneyland with no mention of Walt. Can’t be done.

Gary 8.5

DS9 was the cast. No matter how great the writing was,the actors breathed life into those characters.

unhappening

yes one part of many… that great cast was in place seasons 1 and 2 which definitely have highlights however the writing staff run by behr took that amazing cast and sent them so much higher 3 and on… not to sound all hipster doofus but actors are nothing without the words on the paper

Mike Williams

And without the writers and creators, there would be no characters for the actors to breathe life into them.

ML31

It is very rare when the cast can add life to characters if the writing is sub par. It certainly didn’t happen in Discovery. I think when creating the characters and dealing with casting they learned from the mistakes of TNG. Hence the overall superiority of characters and cast. Top to bottom.

unhappening

discovery cast is fantastic… first season wandered a bit but they made is terrific especially the last 1/3 of the season… the the second season was different, the writing was great in year 2… mount and peck and the rest from season 1… omg so awesome… can’t wait for year three just annoying we have to wait so long

ML31

OK. Difference of opinion here. I thought the STD cast was adequate enough. But the writing was spectacularly bad and the plotting was atrocious. ESPECIALLY the final 1/3. I agree they did do better in season 2. Adding Pike, Spock and Reno were great adds. I think that is why there is so much eagerness among fandom for a Pike centered show now. But season 2 ultimately fell prey to monumentally terrible plotting and again, more weak writing overall.

I do agree with the frustration of waiting so very long between such short seasons. That is one of the downsides streaming has to the traditional network model that it seems we just have to live with.

Michael Askounes

Thank you for the comment. Behr sort of turns me off in every interview I’ve seen him in, and this was my concern about this doc. If Avery Brooks was involved I’d probably buy it, but without the Captain I’ll pass.

Beckerjr

Pretty much agree with the whole review. This was a doc by the people who made the show for the fans pretty much and I’m fine with that. It would be interesting to see an outside produced documentary but that hasn’t happened so this is the one.

Gary 8.5

Nice rental.

Tiger2

Rented it on Amazon a week ago but still haven’t watched it yet. Loved it in the theater though. Would give anything for another Trek show to be this good and layered again.

Would love a few of the characters to show up on the Picard show. All in good time I guess.

Anyway great documentary! So well done.

Sam

If any CBS Trek has potential to rival DS9, I would think it’s the Picard show. And STD aside, hopefully the days of conventional Trek are long over.

RedLetterMedia folks are less than optimistic though, and if any naysaying Youtubers can get under my skin it’s them. Since fate never seems to prove the naysayers wrong anymore.

If STP mostly continues STD’s style of hyperbolic “This girl is the key to Everything!” nonsense, then maybe it really isn’t in the cards for CBS Trek to succeed Berman Trek, while under Kurtzman or perhaps ever. Now there’s a scary thought.

unhappening

that’s a tad hyperbolic… this kurtz cbsaa hate is tiring… i wish you guys would enjoy yourselves… what’s going on now is awesome and the fact your griping through it is a shame… but maybe that’s how it’s supposed to be… the natural order of trek fandom… tng and tos fans griped through ds9… didn’t get to enjoy it like the rest of us did… their loss but our gain… now you are where they were… i guess it’s the circle of life or something

ML31

I’m a TOS fan and thought DS9 was pretty damn good. Best of all the spinoffs. So please do not make all encompassing comments like “tos fans griped through ds9”. It’s simply not true.

unhappening

wow…when someone writes tos fans griped about ds9… it should be pretty obvious in that statement and any statement like it, that it’s not meant to mean 100 percent… it is a well known fact and it’s in the doc that traditional trek fans including tos and tng fans griped and whined and stomped their feet down regarding ds9… you know this is true… dont pretend your feeling were hurt and don’t pretend it didn’t happen… it’s ridiculous to deny it

ML31

Unhappening… Even given the possibility the statement could be considered hyperbole. I was around when DS9 launched. There was not a lot of whining from “traditional” Trek fans. There was a lot of curiosity, however. There may have been some issues from those involved in TNG while the shows overlapped. This was brought up in the doc. But I didn’t take the comments in the doc to mean how you phrased it.

Disinvited

unhappening,

Re: don’t pretend

And don’t delude yourself into believing that you are whinging about some mathematically and scientifically sound poll that accurately identified those griping as “tos fans” to justify your prejudice.

Disinvited

ML31,

As a fellow ToS fan, my number one preference was that something with Trek slapped on it be written well. DS9 met this requirement in spades.

Muse

If I may: stop watching shit on YouTube, and stop calling it ‘STD’.

Sam

I happen to respect the RLM people as film critics who honestly love film and have seen more of it than most moviegoers. Do not confuse them with alt-right Youtube haters such as Midnight’s Edge, Nerdrotic and Dave Cullen who make up lies about “alternate licenses” on the sole grounds that ST no longer “looks” like the ’90s version (as if such an expectation was even practical). I also defended STD through it’s first-and-a-half seasons, and have never made any empty threats of boycotting the show. And I’ve always abbreviated it like that.

unhappening

i know so many are full of hate for discovery and cbsaa… but as a monster fan of ds9, discovery is so good… first season a bit wonky but great cast and characters… like ds9… season 2 though knocked it outta the park… a lot of that was thanks to mount and peck and others that they sadly can’t use in season 3… plus the writing more focused and that’s gonna just get stronger with a more solid behind the scenes now… i’ve gotten addicted to it like i did with ds9… ds9 still my baby though… omg can you imagine if they brought it back in some capacity… i never thought they would but with cbsaa going all out and kurtxman having so much repsect for trek and ds9 and the merger… you never know… that season 8 stuff in the doc was such a tease lol

Marja

Does the Amazon [rental/purchase for viewing thru Amazon] one include features from the Blu-Ray? I don’t want to get the plain old DVD if it has nothing more than the theatrical release [which struck me almost as an advert for the BluRay DVD]. Yes, I’m a Luddite.

DeanH

IMO DS9 keeps growing in stature and up the hierarchy list of top iterations of Star Trek. I didn’t even watch it when it was a first run series but after finally watching the series years after it went of the air, I have to admit it is clearly first rate and probably my second favorite series. Btw, I never ever noticed this about the cast of characters – there is only one white male (O’Brien) and his character is European. Just goes to show, we can be colour and gender blind after all. I have a feeling that SOME who don’t like the so called lack of white males in Discovery just don’t like being bashed over the head with the info all the time. In DS9 that is just the way it was.

Legate Damar

A lot of the actors were white males under their alien make up though.

Disinvited

Legate Damar,

Re: white males under their alien make up

What is the significance of this observation? Are you hinting that SF alien makeup still serves white male actors in preferential casting as the stereotypical makeup employed to excuse hiring them for minority roles (Asian, Black, Amerind, etc.) in days past?

Legate Damar

No. All I’m saying is that its a bit misleading to say that there is only one white male on the cast. O’Brien is the only white male character, but there are a few other white male actors on the cast.

odradek

And who would you consider Quark, Odo, Dax and Kira as non white characters, anyway? Would you also consider Spock as non white and Tuvok as non black?

Disinvited

Legate,

Thank you for the clarification.

However, whether you intended it or not, you do seem to have given voice to a view that because of the overwhelming and outrageous preferences, not to mention the outrageous performances along with the makeup themselves, given in hiring white male actors in days of yore for clearly non-white male roles, that it might still be fair to ask “Should white male actors, for a fair amount of time, not be cast in any any role that is not specifically designated as white-male?

odradek, seems to have picked up on this as well.

odradek,

I would note that the Quark and Spock characters were heavily influenced by the Jewish ethnicity of their portrayers. So much so, that it is clear in the case of the Ferengi it borders on stereotypical and the writers didn’t seem interested in shying away from that. Given the historical targeting of ethnic Jews for extermination by white supremacists, it is clear somebody regards the actors as non-white, which should answer your “Are Vulcans non-white question?”

Kira and Dax are clearly non-males. Dax, with her symbiote, is perhaps even better classified as transgendered.

odradek

It is not clear for me who would regard those actors not as white. I guess you are sarcastic here, so it is hard for me to see your point. If you really think white actors should only take parts that can’t be played by non whites there would hardly been anything left for them to play.

Chancellor Gowron

Many antisemites would not consider Nimoy or Shimmerman to be white.

odradek

Then I guess TOS also had only two real white characters: a racist doctor and a eurotrash drunkard. Take that midnight edge!

Disinvited

odradek,

Re: not clear for me

No sarcasm on my part. It’s been my experience that the only reason people can’t understand how this can be, is because they don’t accept these false “race” classifications as arbitrary and unscientific, as they indeed are, but secretly believe they are somehow obviously true.

For your next trick, explain to us how in The South, where I was born and raised, the jim crow laws claim that if you have 1/32nd African ancestry then you are black, but if you have 1/32nd Caucasian ancestry you are still NOT white?

odradek

I say that race is a social construct and for the main part made up BS. I don’t bis in to most of that stufe. But in Europe jews were always considered as white even by the Nazis. For me to call a jewish German non-white almost sounds like calling him non-German. That is highly offensive to me. It is of course an other thing if a german born jew rejects to be called German because he is disgusted by this nation. I think for similar reasons an American who has only one black grandparent has the right to call himself black. I belive the individual has to decide those things for himself.

odradek

Sorry, for the autocorrect. Should read: “I don’t buy into most of that stuff.”

Still not good English, but hopefully a little more understandable.

odradek

Or to quote someone, I was raised on :

“Must Jews and Christians be always Jews and Christians and only humans afterwards? Or like me will you stand here and say it is enough to be a man.” 

There is nothing said about race or skin colour, but if you exchange “jew and christian” with “black and white” you get the intention of the author all the same.

Disinvited

odradek,

While I don’t doubt many in Europe have deluded themselves into believing Hitler’s Nazis held Jews in more modern esteems, I can assure you they only considered the Aryan race the only true white race and they regarded Jews as most decidedly as non-Aryan as Africans.

odradek

Disinvited,
if you insult me by calling me deluded and push me in the near of Nazi apologists this discussion ends for me here. I don’t need this and I don’t deserve this.

Disinvited

odradek,

Accuse you of being a Nazi apologist? Not sure how you arrived at that after you eloquently stated that you believe the race concept is nonsense?

More like I regard you as an enlightened young Euro who can’t quite wrap his head around how truly inane the white supremacists of the past really were. And perhaps, like most younger generations, guilty of not being able to truly comprehend how truly unenlightened the majority of those who lived in the past actually were?

odradek

All right, I took your comment the wrong way. There are a lot of German people who try to play the Nazi atrocities down and I thouhgt you accused me of that. Is is a touchy subject.

ilker

I can’t believe it’s coded region 1 in 2019.

Tiger2

Finally rewatched this last night! It was a double dose of DS9 as I watched the finale What You Leave Behind and then the documentary. It just really makes you appreciate how amazing of a show DS9 was! And that they did SO many things differently than what TOS and TNG did that it probably did cost them some fans, especially early on. I’m really happy they stuck to their guns though and really shook up the franchise that hasn’t been done since.

I always make it clear I love all Star Trek at the end of the day and yes enjoyed Discovery more in its second season even with its flaws. But DS9 proved you can really go bold with the franchise and if you do it right the fans will love it. I do look for a day we get another DS9 type show. I don’t mean a spin off (but hoping to see some of the characters return in Picard and Lower Decks eventually) but something that just sets it apart from the others. Maybe with Discovery in the 32nd century, that’s one possibility! DS9 really came of its own in third season as well so who knows? Or maybe a future show set in another galaxy altogether in the 26th century. Or something set on an alien planet (which DS9 original premise was).

I became a fan of Star Trek with TOS in the late 70s. TNG is what turned me into a fanatic lol where I couldn’t stop thinking about the show and always discussing it. But it was DS9 out of all of them that really sealed my fandom because it was the first show that really held up a mirror to our modern day world in a way the others never truly did. And oddly even more so after it went off the air. And yes as a fatherless black teenager growing up during that time, I loved the fact I had someone like Sisko and Jake to look up to. I’m not going to say I felt Sisko was may dad or anything but it was a great relationship to watch and admire. And gave me that much more respect for this franchise!

DS9 proves you don’t just need constant fan service, nostalgia or the same formula over and over again to be a hit. It’s a franchise that can literally do anything and go anywhere at anytime! That’s where the potential really lies with future shows.

Adam

I saw this in the theatre, and I’m really looking forward to, hopefully, see all the special features if it gets an international release.

It is definitely for the fans, and the more hardcore the better. I enjoy documentaries, and will often watch ones for which I have little to no knowledge of the subject material (Ken Burns’ Baseball is a good example) as I want to learn about it, but a casual Star Trek fan would be a bit lost in the weeds here. Still it’s a choice they made early on in production, and they run with it, and deliver on their premise so you can’t fault them for it.

One bit I especially liked is when they talked about their regrets on LGBTQ+ issues in the show; it’s one of the few times they were critical in a very self congratulatory movie. I’m glad they called themselves out for not really trying to push gay characters, and saying that “the studio wouldn’t have let us” isn’t really an excuse.

Suzy

Um … the studio has the final say. No matter how much Behr and co pushed the envelope with DS9, some lines don’t get crossed if the studio decides that, end of discussion. Now, they can regret not fighting more in hindsight, but that’s pointless. They did what they could when they could do it, and acknowledging reality isn’t a failure. It’s pragmatic. Some fights you’ll win and some you’ll lose, even if you should win them, and accepting that harsh reality is part of being an adult. It was 20 years ago. Things are different now, but it’s the height of stupidity to apply today’s reality to the past and then complain about it. The past can only be judged by the standards of the past. Original Trek was groundbreaking in social/historical context. Are you going to criticise it for not being ‘woke’ enough by 2019 standards?

Michael

I love DS9, but this wasn’t great in my opinion. I guess I just didn’t realize how much of a “victory lap” and free of substance it was going to be, but I was hoping for an exploration of the success and failures of the series through the eyes of it’s creators and this was not that, at all.

There’s other things I don’t like either. The theoretical season 8 just makes me sad, because it’s absolutely the last kind of storyline I would want to see in Star Trek. It disappoints me that they were so proud of keeping Bajor out of the Federation. Maybe it is “unexpected” or whatever, but it really flies in the face of star treks optimism.

Also, I think it’s hilarious that they or anyone else gives DS9 credit for “dealing with religion” by equating “religion” with a tangible but all-powerful alien species that lives right over there that you can go talk at anytime, who also has knowledge of all of time (or something), sends prophecies with predictive value, fantastical psychic glowing orbs of “energy” that lead you on revelatory dreamquests, gives you superpowers, and performs miracles on your behalf such as making your enemies literally disappear in front of you. It is not in anyway like a real religion, but it sure is a lot like religion on TV. It’s neither particularly clever nor insightful, especially by the end, when it devolves into an undercooked “good vs. evil” thing.

I really do love DS9, even if I don’t think it’s
perfect, but I guess any real discussion about it is to be found elsewhere.