‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 1 Episode 5 Spoiler Discussion

We’ll have a review up later on, but for now this is a spot to discuss the episode with your fellow Trekkies.

Seven comes to the party fully armed.

For people have haven’t seen the episode yet… stay away from the comments of this article.

 

Episode title: “Stardust City Rag”

Synopsis:  The La Sirena crew begins an unpredictable and lively expedition on Freecloud to search for Bruce Maddox. When they learn that Maddox has found himself in a precarious situation, a familiar face offers her assistance.


The new episode of Star Trek: Picard premieres today at 12:01 AM PT/3:01 AM ET on CBS All Access in the USA and on Crave in Canada, and then it will air later today on CTV Sci-Fi Channel at 6PM PT /9PM ET. It will be made available on Amazon Prime Video for the rest of the world on Friday morning.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Picard news at TrekMovie.

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Scott

Icheb!! RIP

Matt Boesch

Mama Annika was pissed

A34

I never liked him.

Marc Prudhomme

I cant believe they killed him off. Would rather it had been Chekotay

Chancellor Gowron

Sure, but would anybody actually be upset if Chakotay died?

IT Guy

hey, now, i happened to like the premise of chakotay. native american former starfleet officer turned renegade who gets stranded in the delta quadrant & incorporated into a starfleet crew who tries to make it back to earth against the odds. there has never been much native american representation in scifi, including star trek, so i thought he was refreshing. i could’ve done without the repressed janeway crush, but that’s just me.

Russell J Schleicher

My money says Chakotay and most of the Maquis are Rangers now.

Marja

I would. I liked Chakotay a lot. Although the indigenous tribal affiliation was quite lost due to watering down, I thought he was great, and one heckuva first officer.

Nitt

Beltran was so disinterested as an actor. Be admitted that he didn’t even read the scripts. He just looked for his cues.

Marja

Oh, that’s sad. Somehow he still managed to be convincing!

E.V Emmons

I would. I liked Chakotay. I was hoping they were still together.

Total-Trekkie2

NO. JUST NO. You don’t kill off Icheb! That was a cheap shot to pull heartstrings that killed off a brilliant character many fans, me included, loved. You just lost my faith in you. I’ll still watch, you’ll still get your cash, but you broke my heart. No hope indeed.

GarySeven

I agree. Cheap shot at a great character.

MjGB

I never liked bringing in the “borg kids” in the first place. I understand why it was done from a TV standpoint, but didn’t help move Voyager story along. It was also one way to help make the Borg evil again. By the end of Voyager, the Borg were weak, a simple science vessel took down their homeworld. Apparently connecting with the Federation through Picard and two failed attempts to assimilate the Alpha Quadrant made the Borg stupid.

Daniel

I don’t like that they killed him off, but I admitt it was a good story.
So I can live with that creative decission.

Evil Randar

Wow! This was the episode that blows me away. Incredible!

Telecine Wonble

Was that a new actor for Mattox? Lame

It is. The fact that you had to ask tough shows it was not THAT lame. (I wanted them not to recast as well, but the fact that I had to look it up to make sure it wasn’t the same guy shows the recasting wasn’t so bad…)

Marja

It was pretty obvious to me, and too bad, really. Original Maddox had cheekbones to write home about! Guess the actor had other plans.

Haven’t seen the episode yet, but I’d have to look the guy up to even know or care if MaDDox was recast. The again, I don’t have my undies in a knot over recasting actors in general.

ML31

Would be nice if it were the same but I don’t consider it a big deal at all.

martin

I am not heartbroken over the recast. I just watched Measure of a Man, and its probably a good thing that guy decided to give up acting. This Maddox was pretty good.

Marja

Seems original guy still is acting, I checked IMdb to see if Maddox was returning and his profile showed zip for “Picard.”

Nitt

He runs the thratre program at at CalTech. One would think he would be available if he wanted the role.

Jovan

He probably just enjoys being a professor and didn’t want to break away from that for a character he didn’t feel all that strongly about. To us, Maddox is immortalized as the guy who inadvertently reinforced Data’s rights as a sentient being in a pretty good episode, then later became pen pals with him. For him… it’s just a job he did in one episode. A lot of actors retire from the never-ending hustle because it’s a pretty demanding life. Even if you get a significant guest starring role, you have to work like hell to get the next one, and the next one, and the next one. Maybe you’re lucky enough to move up from there or become a recurring character. For which you’re usually getting paid very little for how many hours and days you’re on set, memorizing, and rehearsing. For example, my wife worked in the same office with another former guest star on TNG who was sick and tired of being asked about her minor role on it. She was content with a “boring” office job. Being an actor, professionally, is a lot of hard work and usually has nothing at all to do with how convincing a performance you turn in.

tron

Seems like they are just killing off next gen and voyager…

Mike Burnthem

This garbage is nothing but 100% destruction of Star Trek.

The casualties so far are:
B4, gone.
Data was never resurrected in B4 either, Data gone.
The constitution 1701 is gone.
Starfleet is gone.
The federation is gone.
Picard is broken and not Picard.
Crusher is no longer talking to Picard.
Maddox is murdered.
Icheb is murdered.
Romulus gone.
Utopia Planitia gone.
7 of nine is a murderous bounty hunter.

And we’re only half way through.
What possessed the writers into thinking this is anything other than flipping the bird to the inbuilt fanbase? Why would ANY fan want to watch this? Now that I know this is how everything turns out, I am seriously questioning if I can even watch canon trek reruns anymore.

Gutted, and feel like part of me has been raped.

Henrique Andreassy

I completely agree with you. These things completely ruin what is already done in a way that you stop liking something that was perfect. I wish that could have some time travel trick that you can erase all what is happening now.

Marja

Here is a simple solution: Why punish yourself? There are many hours of your preferred Star Trek to watch. Do that.

Frank Pontes

I agree. I have been a fan since the original show but the writers have gone off the rails . We need new writers for next season. Showing gory scenes is not my Star Trek.

Marja

Personally, I tweeted @startrekcbs and told them how I felt about the gore.

S Lacamell

Really? Umm in the Voyager episode “Faces” the Vidians harvested unwilling peoples organs and tissue, cut a guys face off and wore it and tried to engage in relations with a main cast member. The Remmick scene from TNG was super gory for its time.

Star trek has just never had a budget for FX but the story lines have always been the same. The only difference between New Trek and Old Trek is more money and the move away from single episode story lines to season long story arcs. I like it I’ve always thought the key to good Trek would be to move forward not reboot and change the past.

Marja

Jeez, with the “rape” again, seriously? It’s a television show, not a bodily up-close-and-personal, traumatizing attack.

Please stop using that term. I am not kidding.

Val Jean

Guys cant you see this guy is clearly trolling.

MIKE BURNTHEM remember the name….and just dont feed the trolls

Captain Mateo

Wow! Loved what they did with the huge gap of time for Seven. It makes sense she would take the values learned while on Voyager in an extreme way considering her more recent history. So what is a new Borg?

Current and always my hypothesis is it’s the AI from Discovery. Something similar happened 1000 s of years ago too, hence Romulan/Federation cooperatives at highest levels. Hence, No Agnes! What about the cookies?

Baxter

I seem to discern that “new Borgs” are those without visible implants/augmentation? I think that was a theory floating around there; somehow the Borg have this discreet assimilation method now (or at least available as an option).

Captain Anderson

The new Cylons! lol

The Borg, they look like us now!

PEWDIEPICARD

Ha. Ding da ding ding da ding ding da da ding da (BSG opening bells).

TonyD

I could swear that I even heard a few musical cues during the episode that harkened back to the ding ding ding of BG.

PEWDIEPICARD

“The synths were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many copies. And they have a plan.”

Rich Matheson

It was explained in the episode. Annika was assimilated as a little girl, so the borg guts were growing and spreading in her for 20-something years.

A “new borg” would be someone assimilated more recently. Like Picard was assimilated for a few days and got all his stuff removed fairly easily because there wasn’t much there.

The ones like Seven, Icheb, and Hugh, who still have visible, non-removable stuff sticking out of them, are more valuable because there’s more stuff to take. Kinda like a bigger pearl in an oyster which has grown over time. Pretty apt analogy. I like it.

Marja

I sure hate all the surgery without anaesthesia though. How accurate could you be at fetching parts and doing other things if your subject is writhing in pain? Jeez.

A34

I really hope Control shows up.

No love for Kaos….oh, wait, wrong franchise.

Douglass Abramson

@Phil – You missed it by that much! 😂

Marja

Sorry about that, Chief

TonyD

I wonder if Rios’ ship has a Cone of Silence.

Marja

They could secrete themselves there when Jurati gets too annoying.

PEWDIEPICARD

Oh HELLLL no.

Nelson 🖖🏼

My current theory too… Control’s emergence.

ML31

I figured “new” Borg were ones more recently assimilated as opposed to those who have been in the collective for quite some time.

IT Guy

“new borg” is pretty easily explained given the context of their conversation: drones who were assimilated as adults, rather than drones who were assimilated as children like seven & icheb were. didn’t you catch picard’s comments about additional implants & even bone replacements happening over time as the drones matured? presumably, that would apply to drones “born” onboard ship as well, since we’ve already seen infant drones have a limited number of implants but haven’t lost their skin pigmentation yet as part of the process with normal assimilation methods.

Luke Montgomery

Boo. Why was Maddox played by a new guy? Icheb too. :(

Daniel

Yes. It ruined the episode for me. Explanations appreciated.

Spock Jenkins

Could be a number of reasons:

– The original actor may have been unavailable?

– He didn’t want to do a role that would end up being so small?

– They were looking for an acor who could portray a more aged, haggard Maddox?

Baxter

Maddox doesn’t (didn’t) have curly hair though. Ah, nitpicks.

kmart

Hey, the curly ‘hair’ (if you want to call it that) only sprung into view on Kirk with the onset of the movies. When Shatner stared wearing that awful piece (don’t think he got a reelly good one — something I think of as the frosted Leee Majors — till TUC) in the 70s from COLUMBO going forward maybe, my mom was actually wondering if he had gotten a hair transplant from his crotch!

Baxter

That’s actually a good point re Kirk hair in TOS vs Movies.

Nachum

Yeah, when I was a little kid and saw a picture of TMP Kirk for the first time, my first thought was, “What happened to his hair?”

Marja

Back in those days, men were getting permanent waves. It was all the rage for a few years. I figured Shat had succumbed to fashion. Alas, he got a bad hairpiece. Good enough to fool me, though.

Nachum

Yeah, that was my thought as well.

Before all mine fell it, it was long and wavy, too. How many different doo’s did Kirk, Janeway, and Sisko sport? Probably the nit – pickyist of nitpicks here….

Nachum

Well, Sisko had short, short with goateee, and bald with goatee. When he wasn’t being a Klingon.

Marja

Janeway had long hair at first, which gives you multiple options for styling [the Bun, the ponytail], then cut it to below chin length. I was sad to see the bun go.

kmart

When a wave appears in mine, I just cut it shorter. I know I’m a straight-haired guy, that’s my residual self-image. I still often think it is mostly black, but in sunlight that delusion goes away pretty quick. Kirk’s BradyCurls were always flinchworthy and distracting to me. The TUC toup was very welcome, and long overdue.

Daniel

The re-casting of Icheb bothers me a lot more than Maddox. He had one of the best scenes in the history of Voyager when he sacrificed his cordical node to save Seven.

Vulcan Soul

To answer your question, the Icheb actor is from the other side so Kurtzman’s faction of course couldn’t have this! I suppose this is also why the character “deserved” one of the most revolting torture and death scenes in Trek history. This little gem of violence and nastiness actually revealed just as much about the true colors of those behind the scenes as those in front of them.

A34

LOL, are you for real?

Vulcan Soul

More real than you’ll ever be, copy :)

A34

Who I’m I a copy of? Is this the Matrix?

Scott Filgo

Vulcans do like to get on their high horse, or sehlat as it were. Get over it, Vulcan. Your “other side” argument is both baseless and petty. Plenty of “other side” aka previous Trek actors in this new series and they are doing fine under Kurtzman’s watch. Truth is, you and teh other rage-fans are still angry that they didn’t completely revive TNG a thing that Patrick Stewart expressly said he had no interest in. Blame Stewart if you want, but what we are getting here is a grown up drama and it’s being done quite well. I’ve been a fan of Trek since watching TOS in its original run. I know Trek well. THIS venture into the galaxy is one of the most well thought out, entertaining and original in the franchise. No one who can deliver a series today wants to rehash old moments in a nostalgia fest. That’s just not going to happen. Not for Trek or ANY show because that’s simply not going to succeed. Leave the nostalgia to the fan films who are doing quite well at it. If Kurtzman’s franchise is doing anything wrong it’s how they treat the fan film makers. They ought to be supporting those efforts so that fans like yourself get what they want.

Vulcan Soul

“Truth is, you and teh other rage-fans are still angry that they didn’t completely revive TNG a thing that Patrick Stewart expressly said he had no interest in.”

That is not true at all. I was ready to accept a new and dark take after initial disappointment, but given the lovefest for the Pulitzer God being celebrated here and elsewhere I fully expected something thoughtful with class and dignity, cerebral even, more akin to DS9’s explorations of war than gore and vulgarity for cheap thrills a la Discovery. In fact, I don’t need nostalgia at all, which they readily play even now, but the level of mature writing we used to enjoy at the heyday of TNG. They said every one of the new shows would have a profoundly different tone but now all I see is the same level of drek (to call this shlock a “grown up drama” is the riot!)

And yes, I hate them for pushing me into anger with this level of obscenity. I watch Trek to enlighten my mind and not be pushed into their own sad state of emotionality. It is an unprovoked violation.

Marja

Dislike the surgical violence as I do, I don’t let it make me angry. I have control over that wolf because I don’t feed it.

Also, I’m aware of what you meant by “the other side,” and I don’t think the reference was called for, unless you’re trying to invite Certain Fans to ummm, vent, as it were.

Daniel

Well, OK.

Tek

Icheb was a teen when Voyager returned to earth in 2378. He died 8 years later in 2386. The original actor that played him is in his 40s. That’s why he was recast. It’s called math. And aging.

Daniel

They can easily de-age the original actor with make-up. Still feels like a kick in the teeth to Voyager fans.

DaveCGN

Math and aging? Well, Jolene Blalock in her End 20’s had no problem to play an “old?!? I’m only 66 years old” Vulcan. :-P

Timpani

You sound like loon from Midnight’s Edge.

Nachum

Oh, that’s why the torturer couldn’t find it! And her reference must have killed Seven.

Cat

oh my goodness, I’m a dingbat. thank you for reminding me she couldnt find the cortical node. it was bothering me that she thought he had one…he gave his to 7 as a teen. your comment straightened me out. thx.

Cat

wasnt that chick trying to extract his cortical node when he died? He shouldnt have one, yes?

Nachum

She couldn’t find it.

Marc Prudhomme

I agree, didnt like it either, I thought that was a great voyager episode, tear jerker

IT Guy

actually, i think icheb’s recasting may have had something to do with the original actor’s involvement with renegades, which cbs/paramount pitched a huge hissy fit about even though it didn’t cost them a dime & had the potential to bring considerably more fans to the franchise had it been allowed to continue as planned. i haven’t seen anything conclusive to corroborate this, but my theory is the cast & crew of renegades were blacklisted from “official” star trek productions with the exception of the sponsored “official” star trek cruise – because their presence brings money. kinda like how jennifer lien’s life kinda fell apart when she got replaced on voyager – though she tried to make it work as just a stay at home mom, being shunned like that takes a toll & everything that’s happened since got her blacklisted from pretty much everything trek simply because the potential bad pr would potentially mean less profit for the money grubbers who own the licenses to the franchise properties. i love trek, but i hate the bureaucratic politics behind it that’s so obviously run by ferengi standards.

Daniel

Sorry, but Renegades was never going to bring considerable more fans to the franchise.

IT Guy

it might have, had it been given a chance. aside from the cheaply made uniforms that bore striking resemblance to the ill-fitting, ugly sweaters purchased at the last minute for early tos episodes, i thoroughly enjoyed renegades. it was clearly an act of love for the franchise by cast, crew, & friends who wanted to breathe life into roddenberry’s concept once again during a time when cbs/paramount was all about selling out on the vision to a hack who never should’ve manned the conn. that triple farce was nothing but a money grab, unlike renegades. had renegades been allowed to continue as planned, i still firmly believe it would’ve only gotten better & the mystery behind how khan could’ve had a daughter in the late 24th century, long after his death, may have finally been revealed. i challenge you to take a closer look, this time with an open mind, & specifically acknowledge the people involved – particularly the likes of nichelle nichols, walter koenig, & tim russ, among many others you as a supposed star trek fan should know all too well, many of whom talked with roddenberry himself about his vision.

A34

No

The original actors either weren’t available, weren’t offered the parts, or declined the roles. For very, very bit players, it doesn’t matter.

Tek

Ichebs original actor is in his 40s. The Icheb that died was in his late 20s as he was a teen when voyager returned and he died in this episode 8 years later.

DaveCGN

Ichebs original actor is also a human. Unlike his character Icheb.

Daniel

It matters hugely to Icheb fans.

A34

Really? How?

Shep

Who did play Maddox this time around? He looked vaguely familiar but I couldn’t place him.

John Ales played Maddox

Marc Henson

That did irritate me. I always say, if you can’t get certain actors to reprise their roles, don’t write their characters into the story.

Nachum

What, so ST III shouldn’t have had Saavik?

They ended up with a new character in TUC. Was that better or worse?

Trek in a Cafe

Nachum, they created a new character because they did not think people wanted to see Saavik become a traitor, which is what happened with the character played by Kim Cattrall in TUC.

Planet Pandro

I seem to recall that was one of Roddenberry’s issues w/ TUC, he felt Saavik had become a “beloved character” and wouldn’t have turned traitor. Nick Meyer argued the character was basically his and he could do what he wanted, but ultimately relented. I’m glad it was changed, but at the same time I also think it would have been way more of an emotional gut punch to Spock (and the audience) if it HAD been Saavik…

ML31

I think it would have been MUCH better had Saavik been the traitor. As it was it was pretty damn obvious who the mole was. I had also heard that Meyer wanted Alley back and if she wasn’t playing the part he didn’t want the Saavik character.

martin

Agreed. I don’t think that Robin Curtis could play traitor Saavik however. It would have been much better if Kirstie Alley had been in the Valeris role as Saavik.

It wasn’t Roddenberry’s issues with Saavik in TUC that had any sway, he didn’t have any say in Trek 2-6, just a consultant. I am sure that he would have issues with the Badmirals and Valeris as traitors.

Tiger2

The version I heard was it was indeed Roddenberry that had an issue with Saavik turning and why they decided to go with a new character completely.

That said I don’t know how true that is since they didn’t seem to listen to him about most of his issues with the movies but maybe once they knew Kirstie Alley didn’t want to come back it became a moot issue.

ML31

I’ve heard that tale about how GR felt like Saavik was a part of the crew now and didn’t want her to turn. But that story never held much water for me because GR had for all intents and purposes been removed from the franchise at that point. Why would the producers of TUC suddenly decide GR’s rantings were worth listening to?

Tiger2

Which is why I question the story too but its been out there forever now. It could just be an urban legend, but like everything with this franchise, until someone just comes out and clears the record it will forever persists.

Nachum

Oh, he had issues. I think he wanted pieces of TUC to be non-canon. Or at least his assistant claimed. It’s hard believe, as Roddenberry was mostly out of it at the time. The same source claimed he wanted TFF to be non-canon, which, if true, is ironic, as “Have the crew meet God” was something he always wanted to do.

Daniel

Replacing Saavik didn’t work for me either. ST III is almost unwatchable.

Marja

Alas, they were not willing to pay Kirstie Alley what she wanted, which was not a considerable ask based on how popular her characterization of Saavik was. My friends and I adored her. Robin Curtis was a poor choice to replace her. When I saw her again in a recent TNG re-watch, I was reminded of what a wooden actress she was. I don’t say that lightly. I usually have a lot of compassion for actors.

There is an old saying that applies in show business, one monkey doesn’t stop the show. It would be insane to write around an actor’s schedule and not the character. People have lives, feelings, ambitions, etc. If someone chooses not to reprise the role or TPTB decide not to bring back an individual back, it shouldn’t stop the show from going forward.

ML31

For one thing, the actor who played Icheb would have to play himself 14 years younger.

And again, while it’s nice fan service to bring back the actors these are minor parts and it’s not a huge deal to recast.

TG47

He was already an adult playing a teen during Voyager’s run.

I’m doubtful de-ageing would have worked.

ML31

“He was already an adult playing a teen during Voyager’s run.”

Which would make the actor even OLDER. De-aging would have worked but why spend the money for such a small character? I am a bit surprised at the number of people irritated at actor replacements for minuscule parts.

Jefferies Tuber

The Icheb actor is a creep, lots of issues there.

ML31

How so? What are the stories there?

Joseph Cifala

Look up how he feels about Kevin Spacey/Anthony Rapp.

Tiger2

Yeah I been a reading a lot of postings on him on Reddit since the episode aired and apparently he and Jeri Ryan never got along because he would make a lot of sexual comments to her and a lot of the cast didn’t like him. It’s funny how you would never guess what is happening behind the scenes on so many of these shows since they always try to present themselves as one big happy family all the time.

Tek

To be fair, the actor for Icheb is in his 40s and the Icheb 14 years prior wouldn’t have been that old.

Scott

But Quark is still alive, whew!

Baxter

Was nice to hear a snippet of something DS9-based indeed. Wonder if he’ll show up. Probably not I’d wager.

Tiger2

I was so excited to see he now has a bar on Freecloud lol. I have a feeling he has franchise bars all over the alpha quadrant now.

Baxter

Oooh that’s a good call – Quark would absolutely franchise his brand. Better than vacuum-dessicated remains. :D

VashtaNerada

Well yeah. For one thing you’re alive to spend the money.

A34

It’s probably a franchise. I remember Quark talked about franchising his bar. Good to see that Mr Mot is doing well.

Nachum

I imagine Mot is franchised as well.

A34

True, Mot just sits at a desk and rake in the money.

Nachum

Yeah, after a second I figured it was a franchise. Quark is too connected to DS9 to move, I’d think.

I did go back to see if the action took place in his bar. That would have been perfect. But no, Rios actually walked away from it.

Tiger2

That would’ve great! I would’ve loved to see people huddled around a dabo table again lol.

Thorny

It was probably pretty easy for him to manipulate Grand Nagus Rom into letting him establish Quark Bars all over the quadrant.

VashtaNerada

He wouldn’t even need that. As brother to the Grand Nagus, people would be lined up just waiting for the opportunity to kiss his ass. And most likely pay him for the pleasure :P

Probably not this season. This would have been the perfect opportunity for Quark to have made a cameo, so I’m guessing no.

A34

He better. This is a 90’s Star Trek nostalgia trip after all.

Marja

You never know! I kinda hope he does!

ML31

Oh yes… Cute Quark call out.

John Bigbootee

Damn, what a ride. Fantastic ep! Seven shone brightly, really felt her struggle to maintain some shred of humanity. Her last exchange with Picard spoke volumes.

Loved the Quark reference, also Mr. Mott’s Bar on Freecloud 👍

Loved Agnes up to this point, her betrayal stings! 😳

We got more of a sense for Raffi’s loss and pain as well.

Icheb, I mourn thee! 😔

Loving the show, can’t wait to see what happens next. Keep it up, Picard! 🖖

Scott

Agreed on all. Especially Agnes. I hope that Vulcan mindmeld made her do it and it gets explained away. If not…ugh!

But Commodore Oh is a Romulan.

Nachum

Is she? That’s not clear. It’s not clear she even knows her underling is a Romulan.

She clearly sold Agnes a bill of goods. The question is whether she was lying or not.

A34

Oh is Starfleet. The Romulans and Starfleet are working together.

Scott

I don’t care if I’m right, but Valeris worked with a Romulan in IV… Best episode of the season by far!

Rich Matheson

I’m thinking she’s a made-over Reman. Her ears are a little too horizontal, and she referred to stuff that hadn’t been mentioned by Admiral Cranky verbally. A Reman could probably pull that off, and their planet got wiped too. And they’re sensitive to light due to their dark-side-of-the-planet upbringing. Hence the very blatant sunglasses.

If they could make a Klingon look like a human dude 100 years ago (that beat medscans), they could easily de-monsterfy a Reman today.

Nachum

Interesting! Although her office was pretty bright.

Of course, “sensitive to light” reminds you of the Mirror Universe, but I doubt they’ll go there.

Marja

What Vulcan mind meld? I don’t recall Commodore Oh melding with Agnes.

Rich Matheson

I believe a flash of it was in the “This season on Star Trek: Picard” trailer after the first episode. It was one of those two-hand, double barrelled mind melds.

Marja

Perhaps all will be revealed later, then. It was definitely Oh?

Baxter

It did, from a story perspective, have development and some change, so that’s good. Otherwise though, some questionable decisions were made in this ep. Seven had some good scenes.

ML31

I don’t see Agnes’ actions as betrayal so much as I think she’s being manipulated.

A34

She did the right thing. Control can’t win.

Tek

Or! She’s doing what might be the right thing. We don’t know what they showed her. Star Fleet and arak Shiar May be working together toward a shared goal to save the universe. We don’t know if Picard is on the side of right yet, just that he thinks he is.

ML31

How I WISH that was the case. That Picard is acting without all the information. But I seriously doubt that is what is going down here. I don’t think Secret Hideout has the balls to have Picard on the wrong side of a moral issue. Even if he is doing so without full knowledge of what’s going on. Picard is right because he is always right. End of story.

VashtaNerada

Picard is always right. Until he’s not. Remember, he *did* almost wipe out all life in this galaxy (in “All Good Things…”) because he thought he was doing the right thing. Obviously Picard won’t stay on the wrong side once he finds out. But there’s nothing to preclude the possibility of him being on the wrong side now.

RoadSiren21

I just can’t believe they killed Itchy! :( I guess Icheb is the first former Voyager crew killed. That’s so sad. He’s Seven’s closest thing to having a kid. She basically nurtured him and even owes him her life because of his corticle node. I wish they just casted Manu Intiraymi again. This episode was kind of hard on me because Voyager was the series I actually watched from beginning to end.

Matthew D

After his attacks on other Trek stars, that was never going to happen.

Kerry

What happens when you go off on a main star of the current flagship ST series, & instead side with the person that sexually harassed them? 🤔

Could you please post a source for this? I really wanted to know why Mani Intiraymi wasn’t cast. He and the writers really made the most of out of his small arc in Voyager.

Tek

Ultimately he wasn’t cast because the actor is in his 40s and the Icheb in this episode was in their 20s when he died.

Which doesn’t make sense to me (since Seven of Nine aged the same way so why would it be different with Icheb?) but I’m okay if that’s the stated reason. I’m just curious as to these alleged episodes of sexual harassment and “going off on the main star of the current flagship ST series”, etc.

Marja

Intarami sided with Kevin Spacey in the aftermath of Anthony Rapp reporting Spacey for sexual harassment. Rapp was 14 y/o at the time of the SH incident and Spacey was in his mid-20s. Manu made very insensitive, nasty comments about it on social media.

And as pointed out above, he sexually harassed Jeri Ryan during “Voyager”‘s original run.

Wow, I didn’t know both those things. Thanks for clarifying – they definitely are not on his Wikipedia page and not easy to find by Google but I did find the Rapp comments at least. Yep, that makes a lot of sense and is the clearest answer to why he wasn’t cast.

alastair87

It is a bit odd they didn’t cast Intiraymi. Brian Brophy (original Maddox) is no longer acting so it perhaps makes more sense he didn’t want it, or perhaps he was just too out of form to act for TV again. I have to say though that before I saw the cast list I kept trying to work out whether it was him under the beard or not.

stanlowcrickets888

The physical looks and acting skills of older actors whose careers have tapered… all come into play in the casting process. It’s cruel and harsh yet ‘that’s Entertainment’ in Hollywood. I think the Icheb actor they got matched the look of Manu Intiraymi, especially with the nose and the role included a few seconds of tortured pain and screaming and crying so no real dialogue that the original actor was necessary. I hardly noticed nor was the scene long enough for me to wonder if it was the real actor from VOY. It would have been nice to have Manu Intiraymi, yet likely cost them more. Manu Intiraymi also starred in Star Trek Renegades which was frowned upon by CBS.
The actor portraying ‘Bruce Maddox’ had no resemblance to the TNG actor, yet again was more of a victim and a few lines in the holo remembrance scene.

stanlowcrickets888

They referenced The Simpsons ‘The Itchy and Scratchy Show!’ With Scratchy scratcchin out Itchy’s eye! I swear there was a Simpsons episode with Scratchy drillng out Itchy’s eyes…was Itchy the cat??

Thomas M.

Itchy was the mouse.

Zinc Saucier

Itchy’s a jerk.

MarkF

Q-Jr. is gonna be pissed…

Kiān Hāfezi

Strange episode, very dark

That was awful. That was Discovery-level awful. What a disappointment this series is becoming.

Spock Jenkins

Whilst watching the episode, I could definitely see it through the lens of TNG fans who I feel must HATE the show.

Personally, I LOVED it.

Falassion

Why “MUST” hate? They (we) just don’t like it (for number of reasons). And some love it – each to their own.

Alex

I agree. I’m a Trekkie through and through. I love TNG just as much as Discovery and Picard. Each of the shows – for me – brings something to the table and I’m glad the new shows don’t follow the same pattern as the old ones did, tbh.

Jefferies Tuber

There’s a minority that MUST hate as a “Demonstration of Higher Value.” It’s like negging, and it works online.

Timpani

Except that some (Bryant) pass their opinions off as facts.

bassmaster22

In other words, “Go away – your Star Trek is ours now.” Nice. Enjoy.

B35

Your Star Trek has been assimilated. Resistance Is Futile.

TonyD

All your Star Trek are belonging to us!

Marja

That’s not it at all, bassmaster. It’s, “If you don’t enjoy this, please go watch some Trek you enjoy, and stop calling us stupid for loving all Trek.”

A34

TNG fans hate everything made after 1998

Nachum

Heck, I once met a Trekkie who refused to even acknowledge that anything after TMP *existed*.

Tiger2

“Heck, I once met a Trekkie who refused to even acknowledge that anything after TMP *existed”.”

This is how my uncle is with Star Wars. Anything after ROTJ doesn’t exist in his mind.

And sadly some Star Trek fans can be very weird and anal over this stuff too. There are a few here like this. Not many but its telling to me how you claim to ‘hate’ so much of the franchise and yet you’re still here watching it although its clear you no longer can enjoy it.

A34

“And sadly some Star Trek fans can be very weird and anal over this stuff too. There are a few here like this.”

A Few?

Douglass Abramson

A few. A few dozen. A few hundred. A few… 😁

Eclipse

This thread allows people to write Trekkies are weird & anal but moderates everything else… Well I know I won’t bother using this site for now on.

Best of luck to Vulcan Soul the only genuine Trekkie I have seen posting. 🖖

Tiger2

I said SOME are weird and anal, which probably applies to every fanbase out there lol. Are you suggesting that’s not true? I guess you haven’t been around enough of them then. ;)

Marja

See you soon

Eclipse

In Rich Evans words: “New Trek is made by people that don’t like or understand Star Trek for people that don’t like or know Star Trek.”

These fans are sneered at for caring about a very old IP. New ‘fans’ aren’t at all invested enough to give a poop. To Trekkies it’s their lost ex and for new ‘fans’ it’s like a cheap hookup at motel that you can consume every other night.

Marja

Oh, good heavens. Perhaps the new people don’t understand Trek in the way YOU understand it. Everyone looks at the world through different lenses.

I do not sneer at fans who care about a very old IP. I do, however, get irritated when these fans condemn fans who love all of Star Trek, new and old. I tire of being called names like “popcorn-munching eejit” and the like. Come on, guys, let’s enjoy the Trek we enjoy, and leave the other Trek to other folks, okay?

Your voices are loud but not as numerous as you think. There are YT channels making money from denouncing other fans. Seriously. You may have some small influence on the producers, but *they* are the deciders, not the fans. Fans can decide to stay and watch or complain and walk.

Theoden_of_ODU

I remember there were a number of “TOS-only” fans who came out of the woodwork before ST09 was released who did nothing but bash the rest of Trek. ST09 had Kirk/Spock/McCoy/”No bloody A, B, C or D” and that was apparently enough.

Never was quite sure if they liked the end result or not.

Baxter

It wasn’t full on Disco-terrible, but it was a step backwards. Though Seven did have some good scenes. Also nice to see a bit more about Raffi, but otherwise, some questionable decisions were made.

A34

Discovery is Awesome and it’s the reason this Picard show exists.

Jayson Deare

Have to agree it was a huge step backwards. I can’t stand Discovery and was enjoying Picard and him bringing hope but this was just as Grimdark and offputting as the DSC and just ugh didn’t like it

Marja

We will see. I think Picard will bring hope. It’s just going to take awhile because Starfleet and the Federation ain’t what they used to be. Allegory for present-day US and Europe, methinks.

ML31

Personally I do not see Star Fleet as being any different than it was during all of TNG’s time. There were always bad elements who popped into the upper echelon of Star Fleet. There have been conspiracies and even political decisions made that may have clashed with what Picard liked to think Star Fleet was. So far I see little allegory for real world goings on. Which to be honest is a relief. I feared the worst when I heard what Stewart said about such things.

A34

Did the first scene scare you? I loved it. I wish these guys would have made TNG. So much better.

Vulcan Soul

They almost had me, but now I see unlike Discovery they just took a little longer than half episode to subvert, “deconstruct” and desecrate everything that made the old Star Trek great, different, noble. Shame, real shame.

A34

Star Trek got Real.

Scott Filgo

So sad how some fans turn Star Trek fandom into a religion and gain the traits of religious fanatics. Canon this and canon that. Canon is a term that literally describes religious texts. Those fans are the height of irony! They have become what Star Trek warned them about time and time again… never to become brainwashed with religion. Never let doctrine supersede logic and compassion. Well here they are claiming righteous indignation and castigating others as false prophets and heretics. So sad.

Rich Matheson

Star Trek was also very insistent on maintaining the integrity of the timeline. Just sayin’.

A34

TOS and TNG changed stuff all the time.

A34

So true. This is why I don’t hang around trek fandom for too long. They love to suck the joy out of everything.

Vulcan Soul

Bozo, I don’t watch Trek to be traumatized by unexpected splatter scenes straight from the worst of gorefests for “cheap thrills” some really depraved individuals feel apparently. And millions of other fans dont watch it for that reason either. Nothing to do with religion. I. dont. want. this. drek. in. my. Trek! Capiche?

Just how desensitized you people have become, its unbelievable. Just look at you.

Marja

Well, “bozo,” that’s a productive start to your comment, Vulcan Soul./s
He did not say it was your religion. He said that the adherence to canon by some fans is as rigid as the adherence to doctrines by members of some religions.

Marja

Agree 100, Scott F.

Admiral Lockhart

Well said. I hate these fans that are so trapped in the past

Timpani

They could produce the next “Yesterday’s Enterprise” and you would loathe it. Your hatred of the current Trek production is disturbing and frankly, it’s pathetic

Jayson Deare

100% agree was liking it till this episode

Wow, killing Icheb AND Bruce Maddox in the same episode? Brutal!

Pretty fun episode overall, despite all the dark shit. Hate Freecloud. Was hoping it would be more like a city in a nebula or on a cloud like Stratos from TOS. And were we not supposed to know that Agnes is a stone cold killer?

Good to know there will still be pop-up ads in the 24th century. Get used to it.

Still, there were some great moments between Seven and Picard, can’t wait to see what she’s up to next. But there was also a lotta dumb shit in this episode too. I just had to tell myself to go with the flow of this Stardust City Rag…

Baxter

Disappointed re casting new people.

Daniel

Absolutely. Icheb’s death could have meant something if they had cast the same actor and given him a great scene with Seven. Instead we got what we got. What a waste.

Baxter

Right. Almost looked like the actor who played “Old Icheb” in that episode of Voyager where they were jumping thru various timeframes, I forget what it was called. But there was a scene with “Old Icheb” in astrometrics.

stanlowcrickets888

Ahhh but that was an alternate timeline in Voyager. I’m sure this Picard timeline is due to one of many causalities; First Contact movie? Control, 25% rule at CBS lawyers? Could 7 of 9 gets her own series to go back in time to save Icheb?

TuscanMainer

The Voyager episode was called Shattered

Tiger2

LOVE that episode. It’s really trippy Star Trek, my favorite kind of Star Trek and Voyager did lots of those type of stories.

Tek

My god people. The actor that played Icheb is in his 40s. The episode killed Icheb in 2386, when he was in his 20s. It wouldn’t have worked.

Daniel

He still looks young and with make-up it would have worked. Bitterly disappointed in both re-casting choices. And they tried to hide it from us. 24 hours ago the actors playing Maddox and Icheb were not shown on the IMDB page. They are now.

TG47

Daniel, guest stars aren’t generally identified Imdb before an episode goes up in this or other series.

Tek

No he does not still look young. Have you seen his recent pictures? He looks like he’s in his 40a. My god you people will pick every nit.

Marja

Well whoever it was, it was a great scene with Seven.

A34

The original Maddox actor was in one episode. As for the kid on Voyager, I don’t even remember what he looked like in the first place.

Buttrfly

I missed why Aggie killed Bruce. I was totally confused when she did that. Help?

ML31

It was left as a mystery. She said something about “If you knew what I knew…” Which strongly implies she’s been fed something false from the evil double secret Tal Shiar that has infiltrated the Star Fleet’s upper echelon. I imagine we will find out what’s going on very soon.

A34

She might have been told about Control.

B35

The specific detail of the “why” behind Agnes’ actions was not made clear.

That “why” is part of the reason for the mystery that is at the foundation of ST Picard.

However, the superficial answer to your “why” can be found in the many fan theories floating around the interwebs:
–> That Agnes is an accomplice / spy planted by the compromised Commodore Oh and the Romulans that have infiltrated the Federation. Her job is to watch Picard and destroy what he finds.
–> Or that Agnes has been brainwashed to fulfill the orders of the compromised Commodore Oh and the Romulans that have infiltrated the Federation. Which, if you think about it, on two occasions this episode, she seemed to have emotional/psychological/physiological attacks. Clearly the EMH was monitoring her, because when the attacks created certain biological signs in her, the EMH was triggered, asking if she was mentally sound. I hope the EMH has cataloged everything that he has seen or monitored regarding her.
–> Or that maybe she has truly seen a future outcome or is aware of a possible tragic outcome regarding these synthetic beings that has scared her into now walking an extreme and uncharacteristic path. I say uncharacteristic because, as I mentioned, she has physiological attacks when under stress / duress… so clearly, being aggressively and unrepentantly evil is not her true nature. Which means that some overwhelming fear has triggered this woman to do horrible things that will lead to the destruction of many people in order to – IN HER MIND – save a much larger number… or protect a more critical principle… or protect her. In any case, either something has activated her, or by following the science of XYZ thing regarding these synthetic beings, she has uncovered something that has scared the morality out of her. (There is a reason that she has abandoned the bioethics code of “first do no harm” that many scientists and doctors live by.)

To sum up… she killed Bruce because she is a mole and a very bad dude.

TG47

Frankly, her statement that she ‘also’ needs to atone for her part in making the twins suggests that she’s been convinced that she must undo her work at any cost.

Marja

Agnes may be a sacrificial lamb. Although not one of god.

Tillsy

Because Commander Oh has done something to her – she met with Aggie, Picard’s home gets invaded by those super Romulan, Aggie just happens to show up in the middle of that and saves them, and wants to join Picard’s mission… she also seems to have strange expressions at times, that bitch is up to something :D

Trek in a Cafe

From where we are now, the whole series turns in what Agnes did, and why. In the detail of my screen I noticed that Agnes has skin remnants of chewing her cuticle. But Maddox, if he had to die, which disappointed me, dies with veins popping out. Why?

Tiger2

I thought this was suppose to be the ‘lighthearted/comedic’ episode lol. Instead this was the darkest one yet. That opening was literally brutal. My god, poor Icheb though. :( He was the closest thing to family Seven had. When she said ‘my child’ I felt so bad for her. I was happy to see her get revenge. I really thought Picard talked her out of it…but no one talks Seven out of anything lol. And we spent five episodes trying to get to Maddox only to kill the guy off (also pretty violently) in the same episode. Everyone kept saying Jurati was bad news, sadly look like they were right. That line she said was pretty ominous though. I guess they are going for something really big but I’m starting to agree with others, let’s get there already!!

But the best scenes of the episode for me were all the moments between Seven and Picard. It just felt right even though it was the first they met each other. They clicked so well together, especially the last scene when they talked about getting over their assimilation. And man I almost died when played the Voyager theme song at the end. The nerds are going crazy over that at Reddit lol. It was so touching to hear again though. It was almost poignant until you realize the next scene she goes back to the bar to kill evil chick and wipes out everyone else left in the bar, but Seven always has to do Seven. ;D

I really hope she comes back this season??? That can’t be it.

Baxter

Let’s hope she comes back. She was the best thing of this episode, which was very dark for some strange reason.

Daniel

She appears in all remaining episodes according to IMDB.

Tiger2

That’s great news if true, but she obviously won’t be there next week. But I’m just happy to see her at least 1-2 more times.

A34

IMDB isn’t very accurate. She might not appear again until episode ten for all we know.

Kittie

IMDb tends to be very accurate for completed series. Credits for as yet unpublished episodes often have “anti-spoiler” entries. Actors are left off, added incorrectly, listed in too many episodes or in not enough.

How much that happens on a series depends on the publisher.

A34

Loved when the dudes eyeball got pull out.

Vulcan Soul

You are sick man. Get help!

A34

I love horror movies. I always laugh when people get dismembered. I lost it when she called him buddy.

Vulcan Soul

Well, this is supposed to be Star Trek, not a splatterfest. Do you also have chocolate ice cream mixed with glass shards for dessert usually?

A34

Sometimes when I’m depressed. :(

Val Jean

you must of loved TNG “Conspiracy” then, that was a true splatterfest

buT TnG nEveR had GoRe

Marja

I think someone among the creators has a terrible fear of eye surgery. Or surgery in general. Brrr.

Jeri Ryan was listed as a Guest Star. I hope she will return.

Garrett

I think she will be back. The producers said they brought her back because it felt organic, not just because they wanted to bring Seven back. If this is the only episode she appears in, what’s organic about it? Her being there did nothing to advance the overall arch of the series. Also, at the end, she gives Picard a way to reach her if he “ever needs a vigilante.” That makes me think she will be back also.

Marja

Great! It was a pleasure to see her again. Ms Ryan is so good!

Mathew

Never judge an episode by its trailer! Great episode! Really enjoyed it.

Just Another Salt Vampire

They set up the episode as a light-hearted romp with that trailer, but delivered the exact opposite. I imagine that switcheroo was intentional.

Funyun Trekker

Dark?

Let’s best TNG film was the dark one in a first Contact that had a thread of hope. The two best TOS movies were the dark ones II and VI. Thus Picard is in good company.

I loved this episode. Can’t wait to see how hey resolve all of these threads.

VZX

I don’t like that they killed off Icheb, but then I guess it could have happened on some later episode of Voyager as well. I like the fact these last two episodes felt like actual Trek episodes to me.

But the MVP for me this episode was Raffi. Her character is becoming more and more 3-D. I totally felt bad for both her and her son in that scene. I know what’s it like to have a complicated relationship with my mother, so that really got to me. I teared up at that part. Not everyone in Starfleet is perfect (see: all the Bad-admirals) and her path is the most interesting.

I saw Agnes killing off Maddox a mile away. Agnes is becoming less interesting as the mole.

But the best thing about this episode: NO Borg-cube stuff! The funny bits of the charade reminded me of all the times Trek characters had to go undercover. I LOVED the Voyager theme being playing when Seven beamed down. And there were a few times I saw the old Seven shine through Ryan’s performance. The exchange between Seven and Picard about humanity after being assimilated was very nice.

This episode was dark, but it felt the most “Star Trek” to me so far this season.

stanlowcrickets888

To be honest I bet most people don’t recall or know who Icheb is? They should have had a quick flashback sequence with 7 and Icheb from Voyager, or 7of9 viewing a hologram of Icheb and 7 on Voyager before they showed the gruesome butcher scene of Icheb. This show has so many Easter Eggs which I appreciate, yet the normie/non-Trekkie viewer just won’t appreciate or have context. Gruesomely & violent episode, yet one could argue its been done before in Star Trek (TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT) yet not on this explicit level.

VZX

Yes, the very first episode of Star Trek ever aired on TV had people dying by having the salt sucked out of their bodies. While there was not the blood or guts, it’s still a very horrific and painful way to die for a TV episode!

Oh, and yes it would have been amazing to get some clips from Voyager showing Icheb and Seven together!

They probably didn’t want to draw attention to the re-casting of Icheb. Besides, I think a TV clip from 20 years ago would stand out pretty bad in a high-definition widescreen series such as this one. The true fans know who Icheb was. For everyone else, there’s the brief explanation from Seven of who Icheb was. I think there’s a lot to hate about this episode, but not having a clip from Star Trek: Voyager is not one of those things.

stanlowcrickets888

You are correct, Forgot that TOS and TNG has been remastered up to HD, where as DS9 and VOY will not. And what they did last year on DIS S2 Episode: ‘If Memory Serves’ with the Cage scenes recap might have been too awkward?? It wasn’t for me.

ML31

Well, a couple of years ago I finished up my first rewatch of Voyager so I did remember him the instant she said his name. However I think there were still enough clues dished out to establish the relationship between the two. I mean, I don’t recall Picard’s brain disease from AGT. I completely forgot who Maddux was until I rewatched Measure of a Man a couple of weeks ago. Not knowing this stuff didn’t lessen the show for me.

Marja

Plus they do give brief recaps. Picard explains early in this season that Data and Maddox had a working relationship, or corresponded.

Douglass Abramson

I don’t know. I knew who he was and, except for a few episodes to see if I was going to change my mind, I gave up on Voyager early in season 3.

A34

But Agnes is pretty cute when she kills people.

ML31

“But the best thing about this episode: NO Borg-cube stuff!”

That was definitely a plus for this episode. The cube set scenes bring do nothing but bring the show to a grinding halt and contribute next to nothing to the plot moving forward.

But for me the best part was the emotional gut punch of 7’s mercy killing.

Marja

Yes, and no creepy Cersei sister vibes with Narek. Cripes. I think, though, we did get some significant information from the Romulan psych patient about Seb-Cheneb!

Marja

I loved the part with Raffi as well. I really like the character because she is fallible, and she and her son had what seemed to be a realistic and sad dynamic. Her son resented the demands of her military career at a critical time, and then her “absence” because her military career got derailed. Both of them have a lot of bitterness. I hope Raffi feels a sense of redemption and family in the future.

VZX

Yes! I am looking forward to a nice “arc” for the Raffi character. I just hope they stick the landing.

Tiger2

I’m just thinking out loud here but do people think this show is grabbing new viewers? I imagine tons are watching it if they were already Star Trek fans even if they were not big on TNG itself, but I’m having a hard time seeing how NEW viewers can get into this show?

We’re halfway through it now and I’m having a hard time understanding what’s going on sometimes lol. It’s SO steeped in TNG/Star Trek mythology like no other show has before. The only other show you had to know a little something of the basic mythology was DS9 concerning the Cardassian/Bajoran situation but outside of that everything was presented as new to the viewer like the wormhole (and aliens ;)), all the characters minus O’Brien, etc.

But every story line we are watching on this show are all based around story lines from decades ago with the exception of the Romulus explosion and Mars attack which is ‘new’ even if it happened awhile story wise. I do feel they are doing a decent job of explaining things for newbies but do you think they care? I mean the entire story is about finding an android who is the ‘daughter’ of a major character who died nearly 20 years ago and we only seen a few snippets of in the opening episode. Watching this episode with Seven and Picard together, their back stories, connection, etc, for fans this is all really great stuff and expand the universe more. Stuff fans like me was really hoping we were going to get in this show. Not over doing it but I give the writers credit its a nice mix of seeing all the shows being represented on some level and feeling like a bigger universe without in your face fan service every episode. Enough to keep us happy but still feel like its own thing.

But for newbies who have no idea who Icheb was, exactly why being an ex-Borg has so much stigma attached (since we haven’t really SEEN a Borg in the traditional sense yet) and/or Maddox’s relationship to Picard; I do wonder for the non-initiated how much is it drawing them in? Take Maddox, until now, it’s just been a lot of talking about who he is..and literally nothing more. A lot of telling, zero showing. For us, Measure of a Man is milked in our brains at this point, so it’s easy to stay interested even if we never saw him (or even knew that’s who the show would be about). But for a newbie I wonder if they have been as invested in finding a character the show never even bothered to give any glimpses or flashback scenes of until now?

If this show was REALLY being aimed for newbies for example, then you would think they would just include a few scenes from Measure of a Man for instance to provide some real context into both Maddox or Data’s history; but the show doesn’t seem to think it needs to do that.

I remember saying I really felt this show is just being aimed at Star Trek/TNG era fans and after five episodes of watching I feel that way more than ever. I just don’t know how appealing it is to a new viewer since there is SO MUCH back story involved to even understand what is going on, much less care about any of it.

Or am I wrong? And I hope I am of course.

Athus

The problem, believe it or not, is not Maddox for new people. He is just a genius scientist.

I’ve talked to people who have never seen Star Trek and their biggest problem is different between Spock race (Vulcans) and Romulans. They simply cannot understand who is who. And the Borg part alike, in the whole series they have not yet explained the Borg in a basic way.

VZX

Tiger2, I agree that there is a lot of Trek lore. But think about all the Trek lore established when watching DS9! That show more than any other requires the viewer to know some Trek stuff prior to watching, especially during the Dominion War.

I think a new Trek viewer would watch this show and enjoy it, but perhaps they would want to learn more about the characters and alien species so they start watching old TNG episodes. It then increases their enjoyment of the franchise.

Tiger2

Yes I mentioned DS9 and said it was probably the other show you had to know a lot more about its background to enjoy it. Of course it was primarily aimed for TNG fans in the first place since it was taking over for TNG when that show was leaving. And I imagine if you were watching the Dominion war you were very invested in the show by then. Its no way a newbie could just turn it on and have the foogiest idea what was happening lol.

As I said I hope I’m wrong. I mean it doesn’t really matter end of the day, 90% of all these shows are going to be the hardcore fans watching it along with some casual fans. But of course the idea is for Star Trek to grow with a new audience as well with so many new shows. I just don’t know if this show in particular is designed to do that.

But I think for new fans who are watching, yes it will also get them interested in watching the older shows like TNG/DS9/VOY in time the more Picard fills in backstory for more shows and characters, which is a very smart idea of course.

VZX

Yup. I came into Star Trek through TNG when it was on the air. It was only then that I went back and watched the TOS episodes after TNG and became an even bigger fan. I hope that there are people that will do the same with the Picard show.

blackmocco

I initially thought Patrick Stewart back as Picard would be a big draw for a new audience but honestly, beyond the hardcore Trek fans who are thrilled to have Trek back on TV, I really don’t think it’s happening. Immersing a new audience unfamiliar with the show in Treklore isn’t really the problem here, Tiger. The show is simply deathly-paced and, I’m sorry to say, badly written. I loved the first episode and felt we’d put the mistakes of Discovery behind us but the show has just ground me down since then. Each episode has gotten worse. The plot is not focused. Every time we move forward, the show tangents off to a flashback or another new element. There’s no momentum. I absolutely h-a-t-e what they’ve done to Seven. Lazy cop-out for a character that could have been handled with more thought. Jeri Ryan’s comments about reading her first script pretty much sum it up: “where is the character I played before?” So depressing.

Daniel

Same here. I give the first episode an 8/10 and everything else a 6/10 or worse.

Jay

I think people are not used to slow paced episodes any more. After Fast and Furious Discovery, we can’t go back to Lord of the Rings STNG. I enjoyed this episode very much. Seven, amazing to see her struggles on her return. Janeway and Chakotay haven’t been around guiding her anymore. Picard and Seven dialogues were good. This episode is too dark for my taste, but the dialogue, impressive. Picard values like the old days. His advise to the other characters remind me STNG, a 10 out of 10.

blackmocco

Jay, the argument that people can’t handle slower-paced episodes holds no water for me and I’m kinda tired of hearing it being used as a cop-out excuse when people voice legitimate criticisms. A TV show, like any other story being told in any other medium, is about pacing. A story doesn’t have to be full of action, explosions, car chases and fight scenes to be compelling and interesting but it does have to move itself forward in some fashion. This show has been pretty much spinning its wheels for four episodes which says to me they don’t have much of a story to tell.

I’m still here, I’m still watching, but man, they’re making this very hard work.

Rich Matheson

I agree on all counts. Well said.

Jay

I apologize, I am not trying to ignore your point of view. Maybe that is the way I feel about watching Picard. I am enjoying the whole show like all first seasons of the previous shows!

I admit it, pacing, yes! Script, flaws are there. Some scenes should be shorter and some need a better explanation for people, back story, etc. But remember, always on Star Trek, first seasons need polishing. With Berman shows, its always after season number 4.

I enjoy the ride, with flaws, mistakes, and the different narrative and approach.

blackmocco

No apology necessary. Not trying to ruin your enjoyment of the show. Yes, Trek has always been traditionally slow to get right although I’ll make the argument that in 2020, that’s less of an issue with new shows. The quality is generally better.

Jay

Indeed!

Daniel

Agreed. I’ll still watch but man, this is not much fun.

PEWDIEPICARD

I disagree. A well written and directed slow paced show is fine with me. In fact it is something I would welcome because of all the fast paced drivvle already out there. But this is just feeling like quicksand. I did not care to see Stewart doing that ridiculous shtick. This is starting to feel like “Star Trek: Patrick Stewart and other Sci Fi franchises” rather than Star Trek Picard.

Jay

Patrick is 80 years old. His acting obviously is reflecting his age. He is doing his best and trying to have fun in the process. He is very fortunate. And he knows this, being a star at this stage of his life doesn’t happen to often. And yes, he is being more Patrick. So what!? I am very happy for him and for all of us, to have this show in 2020.

Its funny to see him having a blast speaking French, being dress as a gangster, and being working closely with Jerry Ryan!

Marja

I wasn’t crazy about zee outrrrrageous Frranch aczent, but the scene was okay.

Danpaine

Agreed, blackmocco. Very sadly agreed.

Tiger2

I hear you blackmocco,

I AM enjoying it more than you but yes I can definitely understand why you and others feel this way. The show DOES have writing issues for sure. I don’t think as bad as Discovery does but they are definitely there.

They do feel like they are spinning their wheels too much, especially for a season that is only ten episodes long. I thought after the third episode and when Picard was finally in space things would move much faster. I am fine with the early pacing and a slow burn. We are getting a lot more plot now but its taking WAAAAY too long to get to the heart of the story.

But I do disagree with you about Seven. I really love what they did with her. Yes, it a little depressing obviously but I like that she is in the fight and still trying to keep up Starfleet values even though she was never officially one.

And I also like that they didn’t make her part of the Borg story line like I’m sure most of us was assuming. Once we knew the show was about the Borg and saw Seven there I assumed she would be thee to help free the Borg. I’m glad they didn’t limit her character like that and gave her something more to fight for. And it also means we could see her turn up in future seasons too.

A34

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean the show has writing issues. What you mean to say is that you don’t like it because it wasn’t Written for You.

Tiger2

Seriously you were banned. You add absolutely nothing here and a waste of space. No one cares about your opinion here, hence why hardly no one bothers responding to you. Please leave me alone.

A34

It seems like whenever someone doesn’t like a show, they dust off that old “Bad Writing” chestnut. Seem a bit too easy. Now if the show did everything you wanted it to do, would you still call it “Bad Writing”?

I think the show is going brilliantly, in every episode we get another piece of the puzzle. My only complaint would be that CBS should released the whole season at once so that people can binge watch it.

Rich Matheson

Bad writing exists. Lazy production exists. It doesn’t stop existing because it was “written for you”. A lot of fan favorite franchises have had a lot of it lately. And “fans” think or are told they’re being “bad fans” if they speak up about it, (or if they don’t).

That said, I am enjoying Picard. But I will always have a lingering fear that someone will get lazy and they’ll screw it up. Because I’ve seen it before. You’ve seen it before too; you just didn’t care. And that’s fine.

Tiger2

Yeah Discovery had SERIOUS writing issues, both seasons, although season 2 greatly improved at least but still some pretty rough areas IMO.

I think Picard has some writing issues too but NOT anywhere close to what DIS has. The problem with Picard is the dialogue could be stronger in some instances but I truly like all the characters and there doesn’t seem to be a stark divide with them like you have with characters like Burnham, Tilly or MU Georgiou. From what I can see they are at least liked. The plot is also fine so far. The main problem with is just too much exposition and not compelling enough considering we are halfway through the season now and basically all Picard has done in his big mission so far was find Maddox who died in the same episode. The Borg stuff is just meandering but I’m hoping when stuff DOES really get going its going to feel very worth it.

ML31

Picard so far is certainly better than anything on Discovery. Well.. I still like Pike and #1 a ton more than anyone on Picard but Picard is finally bringing us better characters. I find myself caring about all the supporting cast more than Picard himself. Although that is really not a difficult task as you know I never felt like Picard was a good character to begin with. The writing is certainly better so far but yes, the show does suffer from some problems. But I think the worst problem with Picard was the first act. Those first 3 episodes did the show no favors. I’ve said before I understand the desire to not move at the Discovery pace. But I feel like, those first three episodes at least, they went WAY too far in the other direction. It should have been two episodes or one longer one. And I really want to see a damn good reason to come up with the silly double secret tal shiar. I want that paid off else it just comes across as silly like “Control”.

blackmocco

Yeah, I feel like finding Maddox could have been achieved by the end of the first three episodes and the show wouldn’t feel so flabby. As it is now, we’re halfway through the season, we’ve finally found Maddox (after a whole bunch of bafflingly convoluted exposition. Seriously, he’s where? What’s that? Oh, cool. Wait, why’s he there? He’s somebody’s prisoner? What? Why? Hold on, who are those people? Oh god, more characters looking into computer screens and spouting more exposition. Ughhhh….) only to have him instantly be killed. It’s kinda ridiculous. Five hours of TV to let Picard know “she’s on the Borg cube!”. Seriously.

Meanwhile, on the Borg cube: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…….

Tiger2

Yeah there was too much plotting going on with Maddox just to be killed off the episode we found him. I don’t know who thought that was a good idea although reading in other places its been floated we will probably see more of the character through flashbacks in the remaining episodes. I hope so obviously but I don’t know why they couldn’t at least had a few scenes of him in the previous episodes that could’ve gave us more back story and built him up a little more versus just revealing and killing him in one episode.

I bet next week’s episode will start with a flashback to Bruce Maddox’s past–what he did after the Synth attack. Show him creating life in Dahj/Soji, then CUT TO: Maddox’s cold dead corpse lying on the biobed.

Tiger2

Dude, you don’t get it. I don’t have ANY desire to have a conversation with you. I tried that in the past and it was a waste of time. Now you seem so desperate to want to talk to me, that boat has sailed long ago man. Trying to sound like an adult now isn’t going to get you any points with me. I wish there was an ignore button here because you won’t simply abide the one request I ask and to stop responding to me. That’s all I ask and you can’t even do that lol.

Are you seriously this lonely? When a stranger on a message board has told you a hundred times he doesn’t want to talk to you and you keep desperately trying to have a conversation with him anyway, what does that say about you? Seriously?

A34, I have literally zero interest about anything you have to say here. You seem like a lonely pathetic middle age man who has to troll a Star Trek board for attention. You should be banned here since you already were. I don’t mean to sound this harsh and part of me feels bad to even say this but dude I’m just tired of it because you don’t seem to get the message no matter how many times I say it. LEAVE ME ALONE!!! That’s ALL I ask! Just ignore my posts…please. Do you really need attention this badly?? Clearly the answer is yes..and it’s sad.

A34

So this isn’t a conversation? 😕

Tiger2

I just said it man, I don’t CARE to have a conversation with you anymore. Not for a long time now. At one time I tried to treat you like an adult and did try to have real conversations with you. Once I realized you weren’t willing to act like one I decided to ignore you ever since, so yeah.

I don’t know what is going on in your life obviously, maybe you are going through things. Or maybe you are just an immature man child. I actually hope its the latter but I don’t want to talk to you. Why exactly can you not understand that? The very fact you keep trying to talk to me just tells me you either have some real issues going on or just a very lonely man.

Can you just ignore me? Please.

A34

Nice talking to you too. We should me up in LA. I have a place there.

Tiger2

Dude seek some help. You’re not going to find it on a message board. You seem like you’re in a lonely place. And trying to ignore it doesn’t help you man. Look, I’m not trying to be mean, but you have pushed me here. I think you need some real help. I’m not being flippant but we both know you’re lonely and most likely depressed. Everyone has been there before at some point of their lives. But you acting out on a message board isn’t going to solve anything.

And maybe I’m wrong, but the way you post here and how desperate you are for my attention all the time tells me I’m not. Right?

PaulB

Tiger2, I’m breaking my silence to say GOOD JOB, KEEP IT UP with your comments to uber-troll A34. It’s been amusing to read. :)

Tiger2

Thanks…I think lol.

I’m not trying to put the guy down but I’m just being honest now since he won’t leave me alone no matter how many times I’ve asked him to simply ignore me. You asked me to ignore you and I am, so its not that hard lol. I’m not hurt by it and I’m adult enough to abide by it and don’t take it personally. It is what it is and its fine because I’m here to have civil debates with people. And obviously I’m only responding to you because you responded.

But I have TRIED to simply ask him to ignore me, he will never hear a peep from me and can act as childish as he wants here. And what I think is funny is he tries to pass himself off as some cool guy who leads a charmed life when its very obvious he’s some lonely and middle age nerd who doesn’t have a lot of friends and probably never been in a serious relationship. I see this behavior time and time again from people like this. And its even more telling how needy he is because he was kicked off this board and still came back. And it seems to bother him I don’t want to talk to him, which is weird in itself lol.

How desperate do you have to be for attention when you are constantly trying to make conversation from someone who has told you they don’t even like you? Part of me want hates his trolling but then I do feel sorry for him in a way.

If he acted like an adult maybe people here would actually give him the attention he clearly craves. But he doesn’t seem like he can do that or don’t want to for some reason.

PaulB

@Tiger2 – I probably was way out of line in our last set of exchanges, and I apologize. Let’s semi-start over:

Hi, Tiger2, nice to meet you! I’m PaulB, and I’m often an overreacting a–hole. I loathe DSC season 1, almost like season 2, and can’t get into Picard-grim-Trekless-Trek. How are you?

Seriously, I was a cretin. If we have reasons to chat, let’s chat. With trolls such as A34 around, we gotta stick together. Apologies for past crap, and I’ll do my best in the future. LL&P!

Tiger2

PaulB, I would LOVE to start over man! :)

And as I said, and I’m not pretending none of that wasn’t my fault either. Obviously I went too far and I really wanted to apologize to you about it. I felt really bad and I’m NOT perfect, but I didn’t want to give you the impression I just attack anyone I don’t agree with. So I apologize again and I thank you for giving me another chance! It’s all bridge under the water now.

Yes and I also pretty much loath season one of Discovery, liked season two more even if I still had major issues with it, but am enjoying Picard just not as much as I was hoping I would so far. And sadly starting to see the cracks more as others. But yes, I’m great! And good to meet you too!!

PaulB

@Tiger2 – Your apology is unneeded (but accepted). I think it was all on me. To be honest, I’m probably more of a jerk around here than you’ve ever been. :)

Tiger2

LOL, no worries then PaulB!

A34

Bless you Tiger. I’m going to pray for you tonight. 🙏

Tiger2

So you’re not going to answer all the things I said about you? Then they are probably true, right? ;) Not a shock. I should feel sorry for you then if you’re this pathetic. Pray for yourself, I don’t need trolls doing it for me.

A34

I have Jesus

Tiger2

It’s nice you have someone in your life. It sounds like you need it.

Marja

“This conversation is over.”
“But I’m still talk–”

Gad, I love “The Trouble with Edward”

Marja

I actually like having a week in between so I can rewatch and get a little more understanding and see the Easter Eggs. My mind doesn’t work at the rapid-fire pace the writers do, LOL.

blackmocco

Yes it does. No I don’t. Thanks for stopping by. Move along now. The adults are trying to have a discussion.

blackmocco

But Tiger, honestly – don’t you feel like the character Seven has been written as here could be just anyone? I mean, she bears no resemblance in any way, shape or form to the character we’ve previously seen. We can talk so-called character development (an excuse being used by the show’s creators AND too many people on here to justify bad and lazy decisions) til the cows come home but if the creatives don’t understand or take advantage of what makes the original character so effective, they’re just wasting everyone’s time. This is like a bad cover version of your favorite greatest hits. I’m all for her showing up, fine with her taking part in the story but if there’s so little effort from these writers to find the character’s proper voice, how she speaks, who this character is, what the hell is she even doing here? It’s the worst sort of fan-service and it feels like it’s just arbitrarily thrown in, like a 100 year-old Romulan Warbird.

Here’s the problem laid bare: If she had been some brand new character we’d never seen before, a badass hard-drinkin’, hard livin’ Ranger out on the frontier, you’d barely have had to change the dialog and you wouldn’t even notice the difference. It shouldn’t matter that we’re supposedly however many years out from TNG/Voyager. Writing a brand new character and just telling us she’s Seven because Jeri Ryan is here to play her doesn’t automatically work. Any decent writer worth their salt would already know that.

Here, why am I typing this when Jeri Ryan herself can agree: “This is 20 years later, and when I saw the first script, not knowing a lot of or really any of the backstory yet… I panicked because I couldn’t find her voice. I couldn’t hear her in any of this dialog because it was so different. Her voice was so specific for those four years. Partly because of the character the way it was written and developed but partly also because Brannon Braga wrote or rewrote most of Seven’s dialogue over that four-year period. Not every line, but a lot of it, so it was a very specific voice. And this was so different, so much more casual and human and slangy and not Seven to me, and I panicked.”

Ugh. Ranting now. Sorry. I swear, the last thing I wanna do is negate your enjoyment of the show, Tiger. I actually really enjoy the discussions and your positivity.

ML31

OK… But here is something worth considering. People do change over 20 years. I have friends who have nearly turned into completely different people over such a time span. There are some who have changed but not as much. I probably have changed myself. I know certainly that my wife has. This is not a bad thing. It is the way of things.

Tiger2

I get your point but we have to remember A. it’s been 20 years since we last seen her and B. Seven is SUCH a fascinating character because she lost her humanity at such a young age and is still trying to figure out who she is. I’m actually surprised she still goes by Seven and not Annika. I thought that’s what she would be calling herself now, that she has finally grown beyond what she was as a Borg and considers herself fully human again. To *me* I think that’s a really interesting angle for the character. I’m not naive I know she’s still called Seven because that’s what fans really knows her as but it does speak to the character herself and the sad realization she will never feel completely human and will spend the rest of her life resigned to that fact. That’s why I loved that scene with her and Picard at the end. I wish we got a little more of it.

But obviously you don’t see that way. I guess I’m just not sure what you expected? To me she was still Seven but a lot has obviously changed in her life.

And you’re not negating anything lol. When I REALLY hated Discovery first season and people got on my case about it, I always said people should be free to feel however they want and that a lot of us had LEGITIMATE gripes with the show. That feeling hasn’t remotely changed just because I’m on the other side of it. And while I am definitely enjoying it more I COMPLETELY understand why others are having issues with it and they are VALID issues. And as I said I’m not 100% in love with it either, but enjoying it enough for sure. But I can completely hate it by the time episode 10 rolls around…I just hope I don’t. ;)

But I don’t come to this site to hear an echo chamber or get offended because people don’t like all the stuff I like. That said hopefully people are not just bitter and negative about everything either but I don’t see it that way save for a minor few.

blackmocco

ML/Tiger, it’s not so much where the character is 20 years later but how she’s written that’s the problem for me. I can go with her being a space ranger doing her thing but there’s been no attempt to match that to the actual character. As written here, she literally could be any grizzled character out to settle a score. Look, we may well know people who seem completely different 20 years later but we still know how that person speaks or sounds, even if their lives are in a completely different place now, no? And yeah, why ISN’T she calling herself Annika now if being human is so important to her? Ehh. Sorry guys.

Tiger2

I guess I don’t really understand what you mean then. How exactly is she suppose to act in your view? She’s a character who has no real family to speak of, spent literally her entire life as a Borg and the ONE person she shared a connection with (no pun intended ;)) died. I mean how else is she suppose to act?

I’m not saying they couldn’t do something ELSE with her. Part of me would’ve liked to see her happy, married to Chakotay with babies and maybe in a science role or in Starfleet. I know that’s NOT what you’re saying either. But I just think what they did do rings true to her character. She has evolved. She doesn’t sound like a complete robot anymore and can now at least relate to people. She actually comes off more human but you can still see some imprint of her Borg personality there. To me thats development, not being out of character. But we’re obviously not going to agree on it and that’s fine too.

TG47

I think that the episode gave us the answer to why she wasn’t using Annika.

It seems clear, based on how the bar owner addressed her, that she had been using Annika, at least with her intimates until she was betrayed.

It sounds as though she returned to using Seven after Icheb’s death.

Marja

I feel like she kept “Seven” because that is the name she had when she gained a new family [on Voyager]. She does not feel like Annika because of all the changes the Borg made to her. 7 of 9 is a reminder to her of where she came from, who she got to know and love along the way, and now, the people she wants to save or avenge. Icheb’s death scene was very touching bc Seven felt so strongly.

Her story from then is that she has become a Ranger to use her skill sets and defend those who can’t defend themselves. Someone she was as a child. Someone Icheb was as a child.

ML31

Honestly, I’m not a fan of making 7 some badass vigilante ranger. But I can certainly accept it I guess. It’s just that it feels a little… I don’t know what the right word is. Contrived? Lazy? Anyway, it’s not what I would have done had I been writing her but I’m not a professional writer and the show isn’t being made to cater to one fan. So… Whatever. Marja’s comment on the matter seems to ring truest with me. So for the moment I’m going with that.

Douglass Abramson

She did go by Annika; before she was taken advantage of by someone she thought was a friend and it wound up getting Icheb ambushed, captured and butchered. It was subtle, but I think she ran back to the safety of the more emotionally impervious Seven after she had to put Icheb out of his misery with her phaser like he was an injured pack animal.

Tiger2

Ah, that is a good point. Evil chick (I can’t begin to remember how to spell her name lol) did call her Annika, so you’re right. She probably did go by that for awhile or at least had no issues with others calling her that.

But this shows that Seven has developed and evolved IMO. We only seen her in one episode. I’m hoping we will see her again this season. And if we do I’m sure we will get more. But I really like how she was portrayed even if it was a little sad.

Marja

OH YEAH evil diaphanously clad woman in the nightclub!

See, this is why I always need to re-watch. Jaysus

PEWDIEPICARD

I totally agree with this. While watching this episode I was like, who directed this??? Like what even is this? And then I asked myself were the old shows so poorly written/directed? It just really wasn’t working for me. Why does every original character need to be deconstructed? Didn’t any of them go on to live meaningful productive lives? I don’t know man…NuTrek in general really isn’t working for me. I was hoping this would be the exception…

Jayson Deare

I was good until this episode. Episode 3 also had some issues for me with regards to the old Romulan ship being a threat when it’s 200 years outdated…. This last episode just sort of jumped the shark especially the ending. Seeing Picard differ to Agnes like she is actually a competent medical doctor was just retarded. Not having the EMH on and taking care of Maddox was just bad writing for the sake of the plot.

Marja

The old ship could have been refitted. Romulans are probably being frugal with their assets these days, and a refit to an old ship costs less than a whole new ship.

I should know, former USCG, and some active ships passed the half-century mark and airframes 30 years during my time of service.

A34

New fans don’t post here.

Michael K

I know a few non-fan friends who have lost interest in the show and have dropped their subscription already. Many are finding it boring and confusing. I definitely don’t buy that this show is accessible to new viewers, it simply isn’t. Nor should it be, it’s a show specifically targeting the existing fans. I’m certainly loving it, it’s the type of Star Trek I eat up because it’s so full of continuity. I think all of us TNG/DS9/VOY fans just wanted to live in this world again, it gives some legitimacy to our fandom to know that they are creating new stories in a world we lived decades ago. For 20 years it’s felt like we had been abandoned, so I’m LOVING this.

Tiger2

Yeah that’s what I was afraid of Michael K. I’m waaaay too close to it so I can’t make a real judgment and no one I know in the real world who didn’t already watch Star Trek is watching this. The few people who are are 24th century Trek fans and even one is pretty confused what is happening because he haven’t watched the show in years and most of them are casual viewers. None of them has even watched Discovery yet.

My one friend who is confused really only watched TNG growing up and really nothing else other than a few random DS9 and VOY episodes. And if HE’S confused I can only imagine someone who is watching Star Trek for the first time lol. And that’s also the difference with serialized shows in general, you don’t just get a single story every episode, you’re following one story with lots of branches and if you don’t understand all those branches it can get very confusing for you. Ironically that was the reason why networks were SO against this form of story telling when TNG was on. They didn’t want the audience to feel confused or lost, especially if they missed a few episodes, but we’re living in a very different time now.

But I also agree with you, this show is clearly aimed for very loyal TNG era fans. I always said this and that is really meant for them. It’s not a TNG sequel obviously but its SO immersed in that universe I don’t know how much you get out of the show unless you really get all the minutiae around it.

Even though DIS is technically a prequel to TOS, you don’t really have to know anything about TOS to understand it other than Burnham’s relationship to Spock and that wasn’t really a big factor in season one. But as a newbie you could understand the show more even if you didn’t understand every reference.

With Picard a lot of those references are big tie ins to the overall plot.

Danpaine

I still don’t know anyone (except those here) who subscribes to CBSAA, if that’s any measure…but no, I don’t necessarily think it’s grabbing a lot of new blood. It’s too muddled. There’s SO much other content out there to check out these days on services people already have, and a lot of it very good. For instance, I watched The Stranger on Netflix this week – 8 episodes and couldn’t binge it fast enough it was so compelling. There’s nothing special with Picard, imo, except for us old Trek fans, and honestly that good will is growing very thin indeed, with me. This is generic sci-fi labeled ‘Star Trek.’ I cancelled Disney + to sign up for CBS this time, but that will not be for very long.

Tiger2

Sadly have to agree with you Danpaine. Again I want to make it clear (because I don’t want to be marked as a Kutzman hater or anything) I am really loving the show BUT that’s mostly because I’m just excited to be in the 24th century again and loving all the easter eggs and expansion of the universe with the Romulans, etc. As a hardcore nerd for this stuff I’m really into it.

But if I’m being honest and I was a new fan to it, I would probably find it dreadfully boring because the story isn’t very compelling and its just too steeped in lore to understand what is happening. I mean take the Romulans, the story has not made it very clear what has happened with them other than we know their sun exploded and they were scattered in other worlds. But I don’t know why a NEW fan would care because we have no idea how that part of the story relates to anything happening now. They are in every episode now but why are they important to the story itself? It’s very disjointed right now. As a fan I’m patient and can wait. But as a non-fan I probably would’ve stopped caring by now.

Marja

I don’t know, Tiger, it’s pretty clear that the Romulans are proud, that they were offered help that came only for a short time, that they are displaced, and that a great many of their race probably died bc of Starfleet’s decision. It’s something similar to what’s happening in the world now, and it seems adequately explained to me. But then I’m a longtime fan.

Tiger2

Don’t get me wrong Marja, I’m LOVING what they are doing with the Romulans, but I’m talking from a newbie perspective where it’s basically been ALL back story but no real action so far. Yes we know the Romulans are up to something (that should be the Romulan motto: “We’re always up to something” lol) but for NEW fans I don’t know how compelling it is to watch because five episodes in while its been a lot of back story about them, we still have no clue what that has to do with their big evil plan they are hatching up now? What does Romulus being destroyed 14 years ago has ANYTHING to do with all the Synth hunting they are doing and has become their main motivation on this show? What is remotely the connection between the two, if any? We’re now halfway through the season and we haven’t learned anymore of what they wanted since the first episode when we learned they wanted Dahj.

As you said, for longtime fans most of this is probably very intriguing. It certainly is for me. But for a new fan (and again I’m not pretending I know how many of them are thinking and why I posed the question) I’m just having a hard time thinking how invested they are because in reality the Romulans haven’t actually DONE anything yet other than get into a few fights on Earth and lost all three times lol. It’s just been a lot of sneaking around, vague sinister talk and nothing else five episodes on.

Marja

I think people who are watching contemporary series are pretty used to complex serial conspiracy stories where things are “unpacked” episode by episode. If I wasn’t already a fan, I might have some issues being drawn into the show, because I can only have so many complex conspiracy serial stories on my plate at any one time, LOL.

Vulcan Soul

Aimed at TNG “era” fans? Can we just have ONE show out of the gazillions launching that SOMEWHAT resembles the tone of Old Trek? Please? I don’t even mean episodic planet of the week format anymore – just not this grimdark splatterfest where every single character is broken and the galaxy is a hellhole. This is disgusting.

JSM-73

Have to say, after a very promising first couple episodes, I agree with you. I’m saddened (no, disgusted, actually) with those who stick up for the violence and the F-bombs introduced both here, and in Disco. It used to be a show that was written and filmed to appeal to all age groups. A family show. I guess such a notion is now considered too ‘square’ or ‘soft’ for today’s increasingly numbed to violence audiences. I’m very disappointed with Mr Stewart for evidently going along with it. If Star Trek is too ‘soft’ for certain people that it needs sexing up with beheadings, eye pullings and F-bombs then perhaps Star Trek was never for them? Go watch or create something else rather than perverting what was once (at its best) a thought provoking family show and collection of morality tales set amongst the sci-fi and action trappings. Those that bring up Kirk’s “damn” in Trek IV are really scraping the barrel for defending modern Trek’s F-bombs. I’m hardly a prude – I enjoy Robocop, Total Recall, Italian Giallos etc etc. and am no stranger to swearing on occasion, but I enjoyed Star Trek perfectly well without those things. It was escapism. To a better place. That’s part of what made it different, and timeless… I honestly despair at the modern audiences who need all this ‘grit’ to seemingly enjoy a sci-fi TV series now. It no longer feels escapist. And that’s a crying shame…

Vulcan Soul

” If Star Trek is too ‘soft’ for certain people that it needs sexing up with beheadings, eye pullings and F-bombs then perhaps Star Trek was never for them?”

The biggest irony is that these are the same people for whom putting an actress into a catsuit because it looks sexy is the biggest crime against humanity imaginable. Oh, the hypocrisy! At least a catsuit doesn’t traumatize kids and desensitizes people towards accepting more and more violence! These people have lost their moral authority to complain about anything going on in the world for a long time already, but this just drives the point home further!

Marja

No, but the catsuit was horribly restrictive for Ms Ryan, to the point where she could hardly breathe. You guys enjoy, though. It’s there specifically for your viewing pleasure.

The catsuit sexualized three perfectly intelligent characters because being smart, capable and lovely simply wasn’t enough for them to be “appealing.”

Yet I think of Jadzia Dax, one of the most popular female characters in Trek, who wore a uniform in almost every episode in which she appeared.

TG47

VS, it’s not entirely true that cat-suits aren’t traumatizing.

What message did Trek give to young girls about their worth and their bodies when it put Seven into the cat suit?

Marja

I don’t GAF about the cursing, but occasionally it seems “thrown in,” as with one line of Seven’s to Picard. Whereas I love Tilly saying something completely blabbermouth-impulsive, “This is so fkn awesome!”

JSM, Your kids have heard it on the playground, believe me.

What really gets me are the torturous surgery scenes, both with Ash Tyler in DSC and here with poor Icheb. It can be suggested without being so graphic. See, Hitchcock, “Psycho.” Chilling, terrifying but not needlessly gory.

I know there are a lot of Gore fans out there, but somehow I didn’t think there was a lot of crossover with Trek fans. Guess I was wrong.

ML31

Evil nightclub lady blew up the way I was thinking they wanted the “Conspiracy” bug controlled Remmick to blow up. And a lot of people didn’t like what they saw there either.

A34

Maybe you need Star Trek: Teletubbies.

JSM-73

Grow up A34.
If you can’t discuss in a civil manner, then don’t bother posting here.
Thank you.

A34

The Teletubbies are aliens. It’s cannnon.

Tiger2

These are literally the reasons why he was banned the FIRST time here! I don’t understand why Trekmovie just ignores his constant trolling here, especially after they got rid of him the first time. They know who this guy is. He’s just a sad no life troll and that’s very obvious because the sad no life troll came BACK to a board he was already kicked off from.

Vulcan Soul

Oh, stop it with your gateskeeping already. You already have depravedness with Discovery, it doesn’t have to reside in EVERY SINGLE one of the new shows!

Marja

*depravity* is the word.

Vulcan Soul

M.W. says depravedness also is. But seriously my choice of words is your most pressing issue here?

Marja

Haha, no, but thanks for the info from Merriam Webster

c d

Apparently we can’t. And they are doing an amazing job of deconstructing every element of Star Trek that there would no setting going forward for it. Kurt2man’5 finally getting his dark universe.

Marja

VS, Maybe “Pike” will be that show. We shall see, I hope!

Vulcan Soul

I wished KM had the far-sightedness to delegate to new people for each show to truly yield a different tone (God knows that OTHER scifi franchise also failed with delegating). I don’t see this is possible with the same people at the helm everywhere, and the tone of Discovery and this episode is near indistinguishable to me.

stanlowcrickets888

Tiger2, Good question… I don’t think this is drawing new viewers especially the all-needed-for commercial-viability; non-sci/fi, non-Trekkie or casual trek watching ‘normies’. In fact, ratings could be down, after this episode from Episode 1. I now can see why there will be a new showrunner/main writer for Season 2…for me, I enjoying this series to a degree.

ML31

If the ratings (or subscriber viewings) are down from episode one it would certainly be because episode one failed to grab the viewers attention. It plodded so very slowly that if I weren’t a Trek fan and I saw it there is a good chance I would not continue based on that opening episode. If I decided to give it more tries I probably would have turned away after the first three mainly because they took their sweet time moving forward. I just expect a little better from a show with only 10 episodes.

Trek in a Cafe

I prepped my girlfriend with important episodes from TNG which I recently re-watched. I think she enjoyed them. I have not encouraged her to watch this yet. However, I peeked into Interrogation and thought that was pretty formidable drama, perhaps because I don’t even like the fascist tone of most procedurals.

A34

You really don’t need to rewatch TNG to enjoy this show.

Tiger2

It’s always great to rope in a new fan! :)

Sadly I have not watched a single show on AA other than Star Trek lol. I seen two episodes of The Twilight Zone and that’s it. Interrogation does look interesting though. Maybe I will give that one a try.

Marja

If you like legal drama and don’t mind the satirizing of today’s Right Wing, try “The Good Fight.” Intelligent, touching, sharply satirical, and hilarious.

Tiger2

I’ve heard a lot of good things about it and I generally like legal dramas, I just never got into the original show for some reason. But if you like it then I probably will too. OK, I’ll give that one a chance too then when I get the time. Thanks!

ML31

I don’t think not knowing Maddox is a problem. He was just a Maguffin for a short while. The robiticist they were looking for. For fans who loved Measure of a Man he holds some significance I suppose. But knowing that connection doesn’t seem to be important to the story here at all.

But the fact is I personally know ZERO people watching this show. Even the Trek fans I know haven’t seen anything on CBSAA. Mrs. ML31 isn’t interested in Trek nor is my kid. It’s just me in my household. The only people I speak about this show to are here. So I have no insights over what newbies may or may not think of this. My guess is there are not very many Trek newbies watching this show at all.

A34

I’m sure the millions of people paying CBS are watching.

Rich Matheson

Y’know… I’m so saturated with Trekkieness that I never stopped to think what a newcomer would think of it. I think they’d be utterly baffled. My girlfriend, who has done two Star Trek marathons (all TOS, TNG and VOY) at least twice during our 11 year relationship, was confused by the first two episodes. She’s not a rabid fan who would recognize the name Bruce Maddox from that one ep in season 2, but she’s not a “civilian” to the franchise. But she was confused because she’s not a freak like me who remembers serial numbers and deck plans.

This show relies almost entirely on lore and nostalgia. I’ve had problems with Discovery, but I’m enjoying Picard because it’s not completely ignoring or rewriting canon. It’s working within the rules… stretching them a bit, but at least TRYING to stick to what’s come before. A LOT of these references, like Icheb (whom I recognized from the nose ridge and whispered “Oh, crap… is that… OMG it’s Icheb! Awww, he joined Starfleet! Ooooh… He gon’ diiiie….” in the space of 2 seconds) would go right over the head of a lot of FANS. You have to really know your stuff just to keep up.

Maybe there’s a chance a complete noob would see this, like it, and then watch 50 years of back episodes just to get the references. But I’m thinking this is more an attempt to soothe (or convert) the fans that have been put off by Disco.

ML31

“But I’m thinking this is more an attempt to soothe (or convert) the fans that have been put off by Disco.”

There could be something to that…

Marja

TNG was probably the most-watched Trek series of all time. As an ancient TOS fan, this smarts a little, but there are two generations of folk who grew up on TNG. I see a lot more comments from people “raised on” TNG than from those of us who grew up with TOS and TOS reruns [possibly many of us are dead by now]. There are so many more episodes of TNG c/w TOS.

Perhaps this show will send the curious people back to watch TNG, much as the Kelvin Timeline movies sent people back to TOS. There’s so much to discover!

PEWDIEPICARD

“We’re halfway through it now and I’m having a hard time understanding what’s going on sometimes lol.”

Oh man. I felt the same thing tonight. I was like WTF is even going? Like what is the point of all this? Seemed SOO generic. I need to see the wider world of post-TNG Star Trek, no matter how messed up it is for me to be interested. Seemed like they are mashing up a bunch of franchises. I’m just waiting for Dahj and Soji to come out as Cylons and then a Resurrection ship shows up being chased by the crew of Firefly.

Marja

If you know fans who are new to the franchise, just coming to it through “Picard” and “Discovery,” I recommend they watch “The Ready Room” with Wil Wheaton. That helps explain some things and give more background.

Quarks pre-owned tribbles

How come Picards french hustle sounds fake, even tho he is french? Hats off to Jeri Ryan for her performance! I always knew 7 was a bourbon kind of gal:)

VZX

I guess Seven learned to hold her alcohol, she was a light-weight with it in Voyager!

Marja

His accent was Clouseau-level bad. Wurrrrrss even.

PEWDIEPICARD

It was really bad.

Vulcan Soul

It’s interesting that all sorts of stereotyping is off-limits now but THIS kind of nation stereotyping is still A-OK? I guess the French don’t qualify as a minority? ;)

Marja

Picard is a Frenchman doing a bad French accent.
It’s kind of like a white woman doing a “Karen” voice.

bassmaster22

I am surprised Kurtzman didn’t just find a way to blow up Voyager in the first three minutes considering he despises everything before 2009. Icheb must have been the compromise.

J.L.J.

Blasted CBS All Access app. For over a year it never gave me issues, now every show I watch it pauses every few seconds. Have tried restarting my modem, reconnecting my Amazon Fire stick to my wi-fi, which is the blazing fast speed from Xfinity that’s never had issues. Looks like it’s a problem with the CBS All Access app itself and it’s making me angry. I just want to watch Picard without it pausing every 20 seconds! Anyone else experience this and found any solutions?

Nebula1701

Been working fine on my Roku. Could very well be your fire-Stick. Have you tried watching CBSAA on your computer or on another Smart Device?

Jay

It Sucks to watch this show pausing every 20 seconds! I have Roku stick and a new Roku Premiere and is working well. Try downloading the phone app while you fix the glitch. Contact their support team. Could be the app, if not XFinity will the the reason.

Mike

Watching on a Shield Pro 2019 with gigabit fiber – same issue with this ep. I’ll try the PS4 later. CBS app sux – no surround sound in the year 2020? Geez

Tiger2

Actually I just had my first major problems with the AA app after a full year of no real issues at all. In my case, the commercials kept replaying over and over and over again. I would rewind part of the show if I missed something and the commercial would start again even though they weren’t suppose to. And MORE annoying it would literally play one commercial and then when another started went back to the first one again, play that one and then play the second one and then show those two again when the third started and so on. In other words I was watching around 8 commercials in a space that was suppose to be only 3 of them.

So annoying. I got through it but I’m hoping that was just a lark since its been very good up until now.

A34

Pay the 10 bucks. No ads is the way to go.

Trek100

I had the exact same issues and I’ve been a subscriber ever since Discovery premiered and it never had a glitch like this till this morning. I feel your pain.

Tiger2

Wow, OK, then I guess it wasn’t just me then. I guess it was just a glitch, hopefully, since I never had that problem before. I haven’t been back on it since I watched that episode but will probably watch it again tonight and see how it does.

ML31

I understand but for me, this is the 2nd viewing in a row where I got no glitches. I am wondering if it is because I am watching it at a time where there is a lower demand for it? I cannot think of another possibility for it.

Douglass Abramson

How old is your Fire Stick? The app seems to get finicky if a couple of newer generations of the hardware have been released. I think they stop coding for the order models. That’s what happened to me when Discovery started. Everything else worked fine on my Roku, except CBSAA. When they found out the age of my device, they said that I was going to have to replace it, if I wanted CBSAA to work.

Trek in a Cafe

Vergessen sounds a lot like “forget” in Yiddish.

I really liked the editing into the middle of this episode. It got us into that action without a lot of extra goofy running through halls and avoiding security. The only moment that took me out of the drama was when 7 explained everything to Picard in the middle of the Mexican standoff. Also, Dedazzled proves you can make a fortune out of used parts and still look good in a see-through dress?

Sebi

Also, Vergessen IS forget in German

JAGT

“Vergessen” can mean both “to forget” and “oblivion” in German. However, the latter would usually be translated as “Vergessenheit”, which is the more common nominalisation of the verb “vergessen”.
Still, “Vergessen” can be and is frequently being used as a noun (albeit in slightly different contexts than “Vergessenheit” would be).

JAGT

I need to amend my above post (even though I believe that that’s what the writers were aiming at):
As a matter of fact, translating “Vergessen” as “oblivion” wouldn’t be quite correct, since “Vergessen” as a noun refers to the act of forgetting, whereas “Vergessenheit” refers to the state of being or having been forgotten (i.e. “oblivion”). Nevertheless, for a native German speaker such as me, it’s a question of nuance, rather than definition – the crux here being that the infinitive is by far the most versatile form of any verb and hence “Vergessen” and “Vergessenheit” can be used interchangeably in a number of contexts. Strictly speaking though, “Vergessen” does not mean “oblivion”.

Trek in a Cafe

Thanks!

Marja

Vergessen seems like an odd name for the place where Bjayzl [?] ripped out Borg parts. “Forget” you were Borg? I mean, once she has the parts out she doesn’t give a rat’s a what happens to the people she got them from.

Trek in a Cafe

What are the chances that by the end of this season, the Romulan-Conspiracy is actually in charge of the Federation wholly, Picard is discredited as a “Borg” mole and literally broke and working for Seven of Nine and the Rangers — and that’s the set-up for the near the future?

PaulB

Zero.

Michael K

I love this show regardless of my criticisms, but I have to acknowledge a few things that aren’t sitting well with me that seem to be consistent.

I love the opening teaser flashbacks in each episode, but what I don’t love is being told the backstory of everything to fill in the blanks to present day. It seems that’s all we’ve really been doing, filling in blanks with words instead of on the screen. That’s not universally true, but it happens so much.

This show has a set of awesome characters and actors, that’s what really helped this episode which for me suffered from more bloated expository writing. Sometimes the writing keeps repeating itself, such as the Mr. Vup character repeating the same stuff the previous scene told us about. Mr. Vup really had way too much to say in general, they really need to streamline much of the screen writing. The only good thing about the density is that there is allot of callbacks peppered throughout.

By far the strongest aspect of this episode was the Seven storyline, that did not disappoint. It was powerful and moving. I don’t think I understand the fan anger at the killing of Icheb, I wasn’t expecting him to be acknowledged at all let alone the main thrust for her character in this show. Jeri Ryan played her brilliantly, she found the perfect balance between the Seven we knew, and the Seven she has become. I thought it was amazing and brilliant and obviously written by people who know these shows. And how about that Voyager theme music?

This episodes is aggressively dark, by far the darkest episodes Star Trek has ever done. Death, murder, betrayal, torture, mercy killings, family tension and rejection…it had it all and it seemed way off balance because of it.

I will credit Frakes for finding those lighter moments and interactions, he’s really good at peppering his episodes with those moments, such as Elnor’s naïveté and Picard’s fun with his character. The same is true for Agnes, she seems to be the voice of the audience which is something needed for this show to ground the absurdity with some reality.

And whatever this deep profound secret is that caused Agnes to murder Maddox, better be pretty spectacular since they keep building it up. But I am glad this particular story is moving along.

Overall it’s still an amazing show that I love dissecting and rewatching over and over again. It’s hard not to care about a show so lovingly made, even if it’s far from perfect.

Tiger2

Wow I agreed with nearly everything you said. I really did like this episode a lot but it was VERY dark to the point I couldn’t even watch the beginning scene without squinting my eyes lol. And there is just too much exposition happening. As Star Trek fans, we usually eat that up but here its overkill. The scene where Seven is explaining everything to Picard on Freecloud was fine but that could’ve been shown better in a flashback. I agree with others its too much telling, not a lot of showing.

And yes they are building the story up to a crazy level when someone like Agnes is killing her ex-lover because apparently they are involved in some galaxy destroying consequence. We saw where that went in Dicovery in season 2 to the point it felt over the top. Hopefully this one will be shocking without it being totally ridiculous but I’m not holding my breath lol.

But the actual light moments wee fun and not too silly. I especially liked what they did with Elnor too and that he still comes off as a naive kid who doesn’t really get a lot of things because he’s been locked up in a commune his whole life.

ML31

I am liking the way this show handles it’s flashbacks as opposed to other shows I’ve seen. What has normally happened is that an episode will end with you wanting to continue the story. Then the next episode is ENTIRELY flashback. It’s a huge momentum killer. Here, we get a character showing up and then the beginning of the next one we get a bit of flashback to cover something we need to know. It’s not long. It’s effective and we get back to the main story and we move on. I greatly appreciate this.

Whatever it is Agnes was told it has got to be something amazingly significant to cause her to MURDER another being. I mean, if she has never killed before it would seem to be a very difficult thing to do in that moment, no matter what she was told. On this they really HAVE to deliver.

A34

So was the hot evil woman 7 of 9’s ex girlfriend?

Mark

That’s the impression I got.

A34

Yeah, I really wish this was the 7 of 9 that we got to see on Voy. Maybe I wouldn’t have stopped watching back then.

Marja

“Evil Lesbian” trope. [Yawn]

Vulcan Soul

This episode wasn’t half badly written, directed and acted; problem is, I just don’t recognize the universe this is set in anymore! This is way more Farscape than Star Trek (and an inexcusable dash of SAW in that revolting opening sequence), and has exactly zero percent of the dignity, class and sophistication of The Next Generation. To quote the episode, it seems they stopped pretending now, and what is revealed is kinda gross.

Matthew D

This isn’t the federation flagship anymore…

Vulcan Soul

That is NOT the issue.

A34

This Universe feels real and lived in. When I watch TNG all I see is actors on a soundstage.

Trellium G

In this week’s episode of Star Wars – Picard…

*sigh*

B35

Can anyone distinguish between what I guess are now the Romulan ethnic groups? In “old / original” Star Trek Tradition, all Romulans seemed to have:
– shiny, straight black hair with pointy widows peaks in a modified but well-trimmed bowl-cut type of thing
– forehead lumps to accent the pointy widows peak (from TNG on if I recall)
– pointy eye brows
– pointy ears
– heavy tan

Now, in ST Picard, they have every hair color; any hair style; all skin colors. Some Romulans lack forehead lumps (like the spies, Rizo and Narek… and Picard’s young “muscle” – Elnor).

Is the change a reflection of the fact that we are now seeing Romulans outside of the military… in social and civilian settings?

Is the change a reflection of the advent of better hair care products and vastly better trained hair stylists in the scattered Romulan colonized areas (or more seriously, because the Empire was blown away, they have begun to “assimilate” customs and fashions of the new planets and cultures they now reside in)?

Why would some have the forehead lumps and others do not? Seems like those without the lumps will create issues when there are Vulcans in the same episode. How will we tell them apart?

JAGT

The one with the forehead ridges are apparently “Northerners”. At least that was heavily implied when Laris identified that one captured Romulan as a Northerner while slapping his forehead and likening him to Zhaban, who also has ridges.

Tiger2

They said the difference in looks is due to where a Romulan was born on Romulus which I think works great and realistic. That was always the problem with TOS/TNG, every alien basically looked the same in the entire group. A lot of that came down to budget and time, especially when you had 20+ episodes a year.

Now with just 10-13 and a much bigger budget they have time to really differentiate the differences. This is the direction they should’ve went with the Klingons in season one of Discovery, give off varied looks of both past and present Klingons instead of trying to change them completely. It just didn’t work. Here it works beautifully IMO.

Marja

Seems like those without the lumps will create issues when there are Vulcans in the same episode. How will we tell them apart?

And here my friend, is a basic plot point of TOS’s “Balance of Terror.”

I personally was a bit upset when TNG changed the Romulans from Vulcan look-alikes to ridgy people with uniform helmet hair. [a] Ridgy heads + shiny black wigs were a real-world, easy solution to quick Romulan makeup [b] Most Romulans in TNG must have been Northerners?

If there are ridgy-headed Romulans, it is odd, because according to legend [could be book canon only], Romulans were originally Vulcans who left the homeworld because they wanted a society NOT based on Logic. They are a separate race created only by their culture and thousands of years.

I think some Romulans may have cross-bred with the Remans to create the “Northern” Romulans with ridges in their foreheads. The flat-headed Romulans were the dominate ones in the Empire in the 23rd century, but by the 24th century, the Northerners had taken over most of the Empire.

Marja

Thanks NoMad, that’s something I didn’t consider and is the only thing that makes sense. Unless we start seeing Vulcans with subtle forehead ridges, your explanation is a great solution to that “issue” I had with the ridges!

A34

Best episode yet. Love the crew.

Partha

This was way better than last week,which IMHO I thought was the best episode.
1) I loved how each of the characters (except for Rios) had an arc in this episode, we found out much more about everyone
2) Freecloud was over the top but not terribly so. The costumes they used were quite appropriate
3) I liked how they made Maddox look like a hunted man,disheveled and wan.
4) Raffi’s scene with her son was very real.
5) Dr. Jurati (who we knew had something to hide) was quite a revelation, first a relationship with Maddox and then being able to kill him. I wonder who “they” were? Will the EMH have a record of this?
6) It’s neat that Seven of Nine went from being in a regimented ordered drone to someone who serves those who need the most help. Going from a drone to something more like a knight/ronin.

Rich Matheson

Re: #5, Jurati is “Earth’s leading expert in synthetic life”. I guarantee you she can hack the EMH’s memory records.

TG47

But will her hacking leave a trace, or a gap?

Rios heard the EMH inquiring about a psychiatric emergency – or at least he heard Agnes telling the EMH to deactivate.

He may not like his emergency holograms, but given that they are made in his image, my bet is that Rios would track their activations.

Last thing, is anyone else creeped out that it was Dr. Agnes Jurati who took care of Seven when she collapsed and pronounced Seven fit at the beginning of the episode?

Could Seven have been tampered with by Agnes?

Rich Matheson

I think she’d be good enough to cover gaps, but on the other hand, I think Raffi would be too paranoid/persistant to let anything go unless it’s explained. And she had doubts about Jurati at the moment of meeting her. So, definite character opportunities there for both of them.

Never thought of the “tampering with Seven” thing… verrrry interesting.

Makes me wonder… was Data actually assimilated in First Contact? Was he part of the Collective or did he just have a trial membership involving human flesh? Because if Borg code got in there, it may have been passed down to his offspring… know what I mean? Maybe Jurati knew that and was familiar with borg code… saw an opportunity…

Marja

Oh, these are dark times indeed … these conjectures seem pretty likely! Brrr!

Marja

Seven was helped so much by the crew of the Voyager, particularly Janeway and the EMH, to recall her humanity and reconcile it with her identity as a former Borg.

I kinda like Ronin Seven :^)

Garrett

Seven’s revenge lust makes me wonder what has become of her relationship with Janeway and the Doctor. They were both a stabilizing factor in her life on Voyager. The way she committed revenge murder at the end just made me think, “there’s no way Janeway or the Doctor are still in her life.”

PEWDIEPICARD

I am actually scared to see other original characters on this show. I don’t know how much deconstruction I can take.

Marja

I think the values she learned on Voyager have been partly subsumed by her ill treatment at the hands of Bjayzl [?] who almost murdered Icheb for Borg parts. Seven wants to defend those like her who were assimilated against their will, people who do not deserve to die for one person’s [Bjayzl’s] Spare Borg Parts business.

New Horizon

Manu Intiraymi was in a video I saw a year or two ago. He was open to playing Icheb again, they just had to ask. Two actors recast in a single episode…kinda disappointed in that. You NEVER steal a death from an actor. lol

A34

I heard bad things about Intiraymi. He’s not someone Trek wants to associate with.

Daniel

So true.

Nelson 🖖🏼

Just want to say again, are they tying this with the evil “AI Kills All Life” ending of Discovery? Am I alone feeling this way?

Just Another Salt Vampire

That Discovery storyline was a bad ripoff of the Terminator. I really hope that they aren’t tying Picard to that. When the question has been asked of Kurtzman and Chabon they have batted it away as something they wouldn’t do, so hopefully they are being truthful.

Rich Matheson

Was thinking something along those lines too. In Disco Season 1, if the Mycelial Network was destroyed, it would destroy all life in all universes.

In season 2, Control would destroy all life. The crew kinda shrugged and said “we’ve got a job to do” and did it.

What’s the secret that will “break your mind” if “the end of all life in all universes” got buttoned up in the back half of a single episode?

A34

How about finding out that the universe is a simulation and Q is just janitor that sneaks in server room at night to mess with Picard.

MattyB_TV

Honestly, if the only thing that is being talked about are how people are disappointed about the re-cast then who cares? The show and this episode was great for all characters.

PaulB

That’s not the only thing being talked about, so…

A34

Some Trek fans are very anal about little things.

Kevin Lee

What I couldn’t stop thinking about was the resemblance between Bjayzi and Deanna Troi.

Dwight Abernathy

Same here. The resemblance is so distractingly strong, that I wished another actress was chosen! Do we think/know if Bjayzl is a Betazoid too?

A34

If she could read minds, they wouldn’t have been worried about the guy that could smell lies.

Dwight Abernathy

Good call.

JAGT

Bjazl definitely looked Betazoid, I’m pretty certain she had a black iris. She might’ve been one of those Betazoids with stunted telepathic abilities – like everyone’s favourite psychopath Lon Suder. And just as in Suder’s case, this might’ve turned out quite badly for her.

A34

She was hotter than Troi.

Kevin Lee

Agreed

Daniel

Nope. Not by a long shot.

PEWDIEPICARD

Put Troi in that dress. Case closed.

Rich Matheson

I couldn’t decide whether Vajazzle looked more like Deanna or Wonder Woman. But yes, the resemblance was uncanny.

ML31

OK. Just went home for lunch and watched.

Forced to say that this episode contained the most touching moment in all of the CBS Secret Hideout Trek. The flashback to 7 being forced to kill Icheb. I never liked the Icheb character but I did like 7. And this was harsh.

I’m liking the show better now that things are really moving. Still not the breakneck pace of STD but certainly better than the bore that was the first 3 episodes. Hard to comment on the ongoing story as they exposed what we all suspected regarding Agnes. So good that they got to that pretty quick. Although she seems like a character that is going to come around once she perhaps gets the more “honest” picture of what’s going on. I’m thinking she is being manipulated, of course.

The Borg scavenger… She’s not too important. Just someone who comes across as astonishingly evil to give 7 a purpose. But they did go a bit over the top with trying to get the audience to side against her. Probably should have toned it back a bit but it’s a side bit so… OK I guess.

Still kinda cloudy on how Picard would know 7 of 9. Not that it matters much but it would have been nice to get a line or two explaining this.

But VERY cloudy on what exactly these Fenris Rangers are and how they came to be. And more importantly how did 7 find herself a part of them. If it was mentioned it was glossed over so quickly I missed it. We got so much extreneous expository info earlier I’m surprised they slowed down on it at this point.

All in all the show is getting better. The last two episodes were worth while and this one had the biggest emotional gut punch of the series so far. I just wish it didn’t start of so excruciatingly slow. It set a bad tone for things.

Side note… Two things… Mr. Mott’s hairstyling. Cute. And Tranya. Which I always felt was funny and maybe this is a wink to the fans that felt this… But Maddox keeling over after drinking it hearkens back to, “But first, the pois TRANYA.”

Anyway… Half way through and it’s getting better. Let’s hope they keep up the trend.

Dwight Abernathy

I like to think Picard knows 7 of 9 in the same way that Rios and Raffi do. She’s the famous ex-Borg from the famous USS Voyager that was almost lost in the Delta Quadrant. Of course it’s been 22 years, so Rios had some of the details wrong.

I want to know how Bjayzl knew the name Annika if 7 of 9 was assimilated at the age of 6.

A34

Bjayzl and 7 was a couple.

ML31

The evil chick (whatever her forgettable name was) knowing Anika was not a big deal to me. They obviously knew each other based on their conversation. It doesn’t seem unreasonable she knew 7’s given human name to me. Certainly more reasonable that Picard recognizing 7 on the spot. someone he apparently never met or was ever involved with in any way.

A34

Bjayzl and 7 were lovers.

Cat

I wonder if Picard’s time with the Borg might be where they met. Or maybe the Borg survivors had a Facebook page when they got back…kept in touch…lol

Picard is a rather famous (and now infamous to some) figure, Seven is also quite a unique Starfleet advisor/crewperson. So it’s quite reasonable that they would know of each other.

According to Jeri Ryan, they’ve never actually met before, but their reputations precede them:

This is the first time that Seven and Picard actually meet, they know each other by reputation. And as I’ve said before, Seven’s not on the ‘Oh, he’s a god’ bandwagon I think initially when she meets him because she holds him partially responsible for what Starfleet has done in her view.

https://trekmovie.com/2020/01/16/star-trek-picard-the-possibility-of-worf-in-future-seasons-a-new-perspective-on-the-borg-and-more/

ML31

OK… But that’s not who the conversation felt. Also, just because one knows of another doesn’t mean they would recognize them instantly upon meeting. Further, 7’s first comment to him was that Picard owes her a ship. Meaning she KNEW he was on that ship. There was no astonishment to see the person on that ship was JL Picard. How did she know? Was she shadowing them this whole time? If so then why? Her very appearance begs a lot of questions that have yet to get answered.

The quote my Ryan does make sense but in the sense that often actors need to be convinced of their character’s actions. This sounds like it was her trying to justify 7 knowing Picard to her satisfaction.

Tiger2

ML31, Seven is a celebrity now. They ALL knew who she was, not just Picard. Rios and Raffi even talked about her when she was with Picard. I don’t know why this is a big question to you. She’s probably most famous Borg in the Federation.

ML31

But Rafi and Rios spoke of her more like a legend. They really didn’t have a good grasp on who she was or anything. Just the former Borg who fights with the Fenris Rangers. It’s awfully vague. And celebrity isn’t enough for me. Everyone doesn’t know all celebrities. Far from it, to be perfectly honest.

Tiger2

I mean they know who she was regardless, so this shouldn’t be a shock Picard would know her too by reputation. And they were ALL in Starfleet when Voyager came home. ML31, I’m just baffled out of all the questions about the show THIS is the one that is perplexing you lol. I mean she is the first reformed Borg from the Delta quadrant where no one has gone before and who arrived on a ship that went missing there for 7 years.

I’m going to guess when they got home this made news EVERYWHERE, or at least on Earth. There were probably treated LIKE celebrities when they came home and probably were the biggest news item throughout the Federation for weeks if not months. Seven was instructmental in helping them get home and also has 20 years of Borg knowledge stored up, so she was probably debriefed about everything she knew about the Borg and the Delta quadrant in general via Starfleet since she had more knowledge of that area of space living there longer than anyone. Her family was also more than likely the first humans actually assimilated by the Borg now that I think about it. You don’t think Picard would not know about all of that?? If Starfleet knows about her, then clearly he would too.

Just apply it to the real world. Remember flight MH 370. I don’t have to say anymore about it and you already know what I’m talking about. Imagine if that plane showed up today? Everyone everywhere would be talking about it now. And on top of that they picked up a passenger from North Korea or something. Everyone is going to be intrigued by where the plane been and some new guy they manage to pick up along the way. Seven of Nine would be famous both in the real world and certainly in Starfleet because of who she is. If this was Neelix we are talking about, OK, but Seven is a very different and unique story.

ML31

I can understand knowing someone by reputation. But that is a far cry from recognizing someone in person. If Picard was a computer like Data he would just use facial recognition and come up with an ID. But Picard is human. A near perfect human but human none the less. As I said before, would you know Neil Armstrong if he was walking the other way on the street (and alive of course :))? I doubt it. I doubt anyone in the military would recognize him either. There is no reason Picard would know her apart from maybe seeing her in videos from 20 years earlier. There is no reason he would keep tabs on her comings and goings. So it is a stretch that he would recognize her like us fans do. Unless, and I do not recall if this was the case, the discussion about the former borg turned ranger tapped his memory banks.

The Voyager command crew may have been the flavor of the week for a short while when they returned. But this is 20 years later. It is unlikely anyone would be remembered by the general public much less recognized.

And no, I don’t remember flight MH370. It rings no bells whatsoever. (I had to do a google search to remind me what that was). But I think my example of famous people who are known but not recognized is more appropriate.

Marja

Because Picard became Locutus, however briefly, he had connection with every Borg everywhere. Including, presumably, Seven of Nine.

Rich Matheson

Picard and Seven would know each other by reputation. Because Picard is famous and Seven was a Borg who served on a Starfleet ship for four(?) years. At the very least, she’d have been the subject of INTENSE discussion around the Starfleet water cooler. Plus they were also both connected to the same hive mind for a couple hours.They’re practically family.

Tiger2

Yeah I don’t understand why anyone would be confused by this. The episode made it clear she’s a big celebrity now. I liked how Rios couldn’t remember which number her name was lol. But yes everyone (at least in Starfleet) knows who she is because she came back on the ship that was lost for 7 years and was the first reformed Borg that helped Voyager to get home.

I assumed everyone on that ship would be famous to some degree. At least when people heard they were on Voyager they would know all about it.

A34

No one knows who Harry Kim is.

Legate Damar

If he comes back, he should still be an ensign.

Marja

Awwww. Why’s everybody always pickin’ on Kim.

ML31

” The episode made it clear she’s a big celebrity now.”

No, it didn’t make that clear at all. It only made it clear that there were rumors and stories of some former Borg who fights for the rangers now. The fact that he got the numbers wrong even supports this.

I think you are turning celebrity into some sort of impossible absolute. I would say it is possible that within certain circles the Voyager people could be known. But I hardly think that anyone really beyond her Captain would be a name most in the Federation would even recall. Maybe the ship name. Tell me… What are the names of the astronauts lost in the Challenger explosion? See? These people were famous some time ago, too. If you saw Buzz Aldren walking the street would you even recognize him? I think more on this sight might than the populous in general because there is some overlap of Trek fans with NASA fans. But I hope you get my point.

Tiger2

Well I just stated my argument above so I won’t repeat myself.

As for the Challenger analogy its a little flawed because they all died decades ago, Voyager didn’t. All those people are still walking around so they wouldn’t be forgotten in the same way and many probably still work in Starfleet today as we know Janeway became an Admiral, so its not the same thing. They are a constant reminder to everyone what happened to Voyager.

And I’m not suggesting everyone in the Federation would know or remember them, but if you work in freakin Starfleet you would lol. I imagine most people who work for NASA remembers the people who died not only on the Challenger but every major death that organization has suffered (since it hasn’t been that many) because its a part of what they DO and their history as Voyager is now for Starfleet.

I just have no clue why this is such a big question? She’s the first Borg returned home to Earth from the Delta quadrant and actually been missing longer than Voyager was and a big reason why that ship even got home. I’m guessing EVERYONE in Starfleet is going to hear about her story.

Marja

Yeah, and I’d recognize Buzz Aldrin, by golly.

ML31

As I said, it’s more likely more on this site might recognize him than the rest of society.

ML31

Well… In this story the Voyager return was decades ago. I guarantee you any names in that story have mostly been forgotten by the general public. Sure, some in certain circles may still recall them but Star Fleet is pretty darn huge and involved probably millions of people. To think that all of them are well versed on the Voyager story I think is a bit of a reach. In fact, I would think it more likely a precious few would still know details off the top of their heads. The vast majority would probably have to stop and think for a bit before recalling it. “That was that ship that was gone for like 6 or 8 years, wasn’t it?”

Vantheman77

Up until this episode everyone has their own reasons for going with Picard and not all of it was about him.

After watching the latest episode, we may have an idea who may not return for the 2nd season.

Cat

Not sure if this has been discussed or not….but as far as I know, icheb gave his cortical node to 7. How could he have died having one extracted???? Any Voyager fans out there? Is my memory chip getting old?

That’s correct. That’s why there was none to be found, the surgeon kept expecting to find one. She didn’t care about the person, just wanted to keep dissecting for tech.

B35

The more I think about it, the more I am a bit uneven on ST Picard.

Oh, I am really entertained by what ST Picard offers. I love the production values, the intrigue, the new paths being forged with ST canon, many of the new actors/characters, seeing the old TNG and Voyager characters…

But the warm/fuzzy/tribble-ations that I felt after seeing Episode 1 are not as warm and fuzzy now. For me, that really has to do with how Admiral Picard is being written.

I always thought Picard would go into old age with a feisty “There Are 4 Lights!” kind of chip on his shoulder. With a “rage, rage against the dying of the light” kind of Shakespearean chip on his shoulder. (I know that was D.Thomas who wrote that.)

To me, his characterization in the show feels… feels… less like a retired Admiral Picard who had the kind of achievements that reshaped life and politics for untold billions across the alpha quadrant. Rather, he feels like a weary, retired, elderly British philanthropist who needs to do one more bit of good.

He feels off to me. He feels like a genteel, 80-year-old Bill Gates. Who no longer has money, which makes him feel less potent.

He should feel like an 80 year-old Tony Stark who no longer has his money and toys, but who still has that potent fire in his bones because he knows that he is Tony F*****G Stark.

BE CLEAR – I DON’T MEAN that Picard should be written as Stark in any way. But, this is Jean-Luc F*****G Picard who outwitted Q, the Klingons, the Borg…. who played that flute like a boss…. who got the woman when he wanted one… who saved the ST multiverse with only Whoopi’s help… who gave us Darmock and Jalad @ Tanagra… who went back to the future to keep Zefram Cochrane’s warp launch on track…

This Picard is written small. Not the same guy with deep fire in his bones that bet his sanity on the fact that “There Are 4 Lights!”.

I kind of wish that this storyline was saved for Section 31 / Star Trek CSI.

But I will keep watching no matter what. There is a lot to enjoy no matter what.

PEWDIEPICARD

Totally agree. You just wrote out what I was thinking. This is the man who stared down a Cardassian Gul and said “Take this message to your Leaders Gul Macet…we’ll be watching.” Picard was a badass boss and didn’t need to wear silly outfits to do it. Subtlety is such an art which Star Trek used to do masterfully. Sadly NuTrek has none. This feels more and more like Star Trek Patrick Stewart than Star Trek Picard. I hope I’m wrong.

Marja

B35, I don’t know what your age is, but as a person of age, I want to say that one feels a little “smaller” and one feels a lot of regrets about the things one did and did not do. One can also feel a huge sense of entitlement, as did the Admiral Picard, retired, who walked in and asked the current Starfleet admiral for a ship.

I think this is how Picard is starting out. I think we will see the JLP we knew and loved revive more as he gets back in the groove of working with his odd new crew in space.

B35

I am a trip and a fall away from 50.

I grant you that some feel smaller with age. Might feel the weight of the decisions made or not made, and of diverging roads that one elected to take or abandon in life. I feel the weight of those now and wince more often than I want to admit. I was thinking this morning, actually, about a recent dream I had of rehabilitating a wonderful historic home. I would have a much better chance now of rehabbing that old home in my dreams than in actual reality due to the responsibilities and choices that now govern my every waking hour and which also govern what I do with my wallet.

So I get what you are saying.

But my opinion is that seeing Picard written small – to me – is jarring. It feels like I am watching a mirror universe Picard rather than the real deal.

Picard should be saying and thinking: “I Am Big! It’s the Pictures that have gotten smaller.” (from ‘Sunset Boulevard’)

You mentioned that we will see the Jean-Luc that we know and love before too long. I hope. This is just a 10 episode season. And we are already at episode 5. There is supposed to be a Season 2, so that gives more time to level-up his persona. But I truly hope that they do it sooner rather than later.

Marja

I think “Picard writ small” is part of what intrigued Patrick Stewart enough to return. He collaborated in some of the writing, too. It’s mentioned several times that he’s “escaping” in the vineyard, that he “belongs Out There” … but when Starfleet betrayed him, he felt, “what else could I do?” Now he’s back in action, we’ll see.

ML31

To me, he comes across as the same guy from the TV show. Just older. He’s still sure of himself. His judgement is still perfect. He is still the moral compass for all around him. He is still perfect and as such, has no personal journey to take which makes him less interesting than literally every other character around him in this show. I find myself hoping Picard will be done and these characters launch off for their own journeys in later seasons.

B35

To PewD / Marj / ML ….

Thank you!

Great thoughts and insights! Very much appreciated insights!

You and others on similar forums help me enjoy this STP experience a little more.

Marja

Thanks! :^)

Arashikage

Does it bug anyone how the new treks are just dirtying up the federation’s mission/philosophies.
I don’t mean to bag on the show because I am enjoying it but just wish they were more original than that and keep the positive view Roddenberry had of our future.

It seems important right now

A34

They made Trek more realistic. Roddenberry was more of a hindrance to Star Trek. There’s no doubt TNG got better after they got rid of him.

PaulB

They didn’t get rid of Roddenberry. He became ill and died. Show at least a shred of decency if not respect for the guy…or at least get the facts right.

A34

‘They didn’t get rid of Roddenberry. He became ill and died’

Samething

IT Guy

dude, you need to get in line to requisition a brain. dying & being let go from a job are FAR from the same thing. the late, great gene roddenberry himself would slap you upside the head for that one.

PaulB

Hey, moderators, how many trolls do you allow in this forum? Wasn’t A34 banned before? Come on!

Marja

Roddenberry passed away in 1992. He advised on TNG only for the first two seasons, 1987-88 and 1988-89.

Thorny

Oct 1991. But yes, Berman was effectively showrunner from Season 3 on.

Marja

@Thorny
[and thank goodness] [except for the wallpaper music soundtrack]

ML31

What many feel are the worst two seasons in all of Trek.

Roddenberry dreamed up the concept so kudos to him for that. But he was not the one to make anything work. Supposedly Gene Coon was the one who make TOS go. Then it was Bennett who made the movies go. Then it was Berman who made TNG go… Anyone see a pattern here?

Trellium G

Yep. But all of them built upon Gene’s vision. JJ with the movies and Kurtzman with tv Trek are busy deconstructing Gene’s vision so they can turn it into something completely different. Not building upon it. Gene’s vision was hopeful. Kurtzman’s is cynical.

A34

I bet people said that same thing when Berman took over.

ML31

One could argue that the feature films were NOT Gene’s vision at all. Yet many enjoyed most of them as good Trek. Coon did work with GR but he made the concept better. Same with Berman.

Marja

I do not agree that Kurtzman’s view is cynical. He drops Trek into a dark world, but the VALUES of the Federation and Starfleet exist. They exist in the characters we know and love, who are suddenly fighting a war from within.

I won’t bring politics into it, but I see quite a few parallels with our world today. And Trek has always shown us the importance of sound character and values when we’re in a dark place. It gives us hope that we can shine light into that darkness and make it shrink back.

A34

Roddenberry was a one hit wonder.

Marja

ML31, Yes! Gene was the visionary, Coon and Bennett and Berman/Braga/Moore were the ones who put the vision into perspective and made it great.

Trek in a Cafe

We don’t know that. Picard is not Starfleet and we are already in a lawless area. We still don’t know what will happen if Starfleet intervenes.

c d

Well said Arashikage.

Marja

Arashikage, the new treks are just dirtying up the federation’s mission/philosophies.

I disagree. Picard and Musiker [Raffi] hold that philosophy. Burnham holds that philosophy. Saru holds that philosophy. Cornwell holds that philosophy. Pike holds that philosophy. Their philosophy, held dear, is being challenged, both by their own leaders and happenings around them.

Again, current times beheld through Star Trek’s lens.

GraniteTrek

The first episode that made me angry – its bad enough they brought Icheb back just long enough to kill him, a character that I actually, as a foster parent of an adopted pre-teen, liked. I liked that relationship with Seven. Then they bring back Seven and they kill her off too (apparently) – they couldn’t use a random new character that would die because people wouldn’t be invested, so they choose a character from the past to kill off so it means something and generates an emotional response, at least from the fans. They could just have easily used Sisko revenging Jake’s death, or Belanna revenging her childs death, but it wound up being Seven and Icheb. This is just typical lazy modern Trek writing – milk fan emotions to make this rather lame and brief story of the character mean something. I’ll take it back if Seven returns.

And that Aggie killed Maddox surprised me zero, it was so obviously foreshadowed I’d have been more surprised if she hadn’t. Just a typical modern ‘damn you and your sudden but inevitable betrayal’ writing ploy.

Tiger2

Dude where are you getting Seven was killed???? I get a lot of people are angry that Icheb died (I’m OK with it but I been OK with every major death in Star Trek….maybe I’m just dead inside ;)), because it was to give Seven motivation just like Dahj dying gave Picard his and he only knew her for a day lol.

But Seven is not dead. You would have to be crazy to kill off one of the most popular characters they can milk longer on a new show. And this is Star Trek if you don’t see them die then they are not gone. And in Star Trek’s case we seen characters die over and over again and they still show up again lol.

A34

Interesting….🤔

GraniteTrek

Okay, so I’m supposed to buy that 1 person holding machine guns like pistols (try that sometime and see how accurate you can be, and try not to shoot yourself in the process – and yes I know they’re energy weapons but we’ve seen elsewhere they still have kick, not to mention that they’re so big that unless they’re styrofoam TV props you can’t hold them up that easy or steadily) survives a head to head confrontation with a squad of similarly armed and also armored guards/soldiers/mercs while walking towards them slowly in a straight line not hiding behind anything. There’s nothing cliche and badly written about that is there :D … These guys must have been taught marksmanship at the Imperial Stormtrooper Academy!

Not to mention they’d just established the character had no hope left, no reason for living, lost all she’d held dear.. basically looking for a good death. And she’d accomplished her revenge. Life complete.

Tiger2

It’s done all the time in other show and movies, so yes. ;) You can certainly think its badly written but its no way she died.

No one ANYWHERE has remotely suggested the character was killed off, from any of the writers to Ryan herself. More than likely she will pop back up again this season.

Thorny

I doubt Seven is dead. She was kicking a– and taking names when last seen, and she had the “get out of jail free” card (transporter chip) she lifted from Rios. Besides, BJaisal’s “mercenary army” turned out to be a whole bunch of nothin’.

Tiger2

If Kurtzman doesn’t want riots at his door the last thing the guy is going to do is tell people he just killed Seven off camera. Not the way to go. ;)

ML31

I never got the impression 7 was dead at all.

But I will give you what you said about Agnes. It’s been telegraphed from the beginning that she was not aligned with the rest of the crew. That was was being manipulated. As you said, it would be a surprise if she DIDN’T pull off any stunts like ditching Maddox. I just hope that whatever she was told was dire enough to take a life. That is a pretty huge GD step to take. It’s not easy. Even more so by looking at how they presented her. Super agitated. Nervous. Etc. She’s no killer yet she felt compelled to kill this guy. I cannot stress enough how HUGE that step is.

blackmocco

Hmmm. That’s a pretty interesting take on Seven possibly dying. I hadn’t actually considered that but now I’m thinking about it, I’m kinda loving it.

Dmesser92

I’m floored that Icheb was killed off. Especially in such brutal fashion. Every time I see him in Voyager I’m going to think of that horrific torture scene.

PEWDIEPICARD

He didn’t deserve that.

Thomas W.

Best Star Trek episode ever! I just love Kurtzman’s Trek. More of this please!

A34

Yeah, it’s been the best episode so far.

drij

I’ve lost interest in the show.

Marja

On my third viewing, I heard the Voyager theme! Thanks to the person here who pointed it out. Love getting these little Easter Eggs!

ANDRE Reckziegel

On episode 5, Raffi read some files about her son on USS Discovery, anyone else notice that?