‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 1 Episode 6 Spoiler Discussion

We’ll have a review up later on, but for now this is a spot to discuss the episode with your fellow Trekkies.

The mystery of the twins continues.

For people have haven’t seen the episode yet… stay away from the comments of this article.

 

Episode title: “The Impossible Box”

Synopsis: Picard and the crew track Soji to the Borg cube in Romulan space, resurfacing haunting memories for Picard. Meanwhile, Narek believes he finally found a way to safely exploit Soji for information.


The new episode of Star Trek: Picard premieres today at 12:01 AM PT/3:01 AM ET on CBS All Access in the USA and on Crave in Canada, and then it will air later today on CTV Sci-Fi Channel at 6PM PT /9PM ET. It will be made available on Amazon Prime Video for the rest of the world on Friday morning.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Picard news at TrekMovie.

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Scott

Great shot of Picard lined up with the Locutus picture.

Spock Jenkins

Yep, that was excellent.

Tillsy

My wive was blown away by that – and she wouldn’t normally care about things like this.

tacotuesday

Indeed! That was great. I just wished they edited out the viewscreen border. You would think the photo would be a direct capture of the transmission and not a photo taken from within the bridge of the viewscreen.

Jonathan

.. and use record from Wolf 359 where Picard had grey skin…

Scott

Best episode yet!

Brando

Yessir! Flurry of emotions on this episode, Hugh’s willingness to help Picard as almost a given like matter of factly, really shows how much he owes his life away from the collective to him and the Enterprise crew, although I was a little stunned that Hugh didn’t ask about Geordi. I have a feeling the green zone is gonna come back online, this cube isn’t dead. Can’t wait to see the EMH again, no holos was kind of apparent, I imagine Aggie has the knowledge to erase his memory. Elnord boarding the cube and staying for Picard and Soji’s escape, I hope to see some more Romulans lose their heads lol. The preview next week!!!! Guess who Picard went to for safety!!!!!!! Can’t wait! This show is amazing, and seeing Soji activate are the end, sooo good.

MattR

I’d like to think that Geordi and Hugh have spoken so there wasn’t a need to bring him up. Remember, it’s Picard who has been off the grid and shut-off from the galaxy.

dennycranium

Yes, agreed! I think they’ve turned the corner and will finish strong. I LOVED this episode. I don’t think they’re giving Hugh enough to do. I could be the directing, the writing- I can’t put my finger on it. I felt a steady slowing down after episode 1 and was concerned about the show just plodding along. We got some great character moments with Picard on the cube. (PTSD, anyone?) I want to see more of 7 of 9 and I’m exciting to see Will and Deanna next week. Well done! especially to the writer and director of this episode!

Marja

I have a feeling about Hugh and the xBs … I think there may be a revolt in the future

Spiked Canon

Marja I got that feeling as well

ML31

” I felt a steady slowing down after episode 1″

I felt a steady increase in speed since episode 4. The first 3, including the first one, were tremendously slow in setting things up. Something that I hope will be fixed come season 2.

Partha

Apparently this episode dropped a bit earlier,I saw it at 2AM.

The reason I love this show is the characters. This one had a ton of good character moments for Jurati,Rios and especially Picard.

1) Jurati and Rios Them getting together at first engendered a groan from me until I saw Rios was trying to get at something. I’m not saying he did not want to have sex with Jurati but I got the sense he was also trying to gauge her in some way. After all you don’t read Miguel de Unamuno if you did not have thoughts about the deceptive and self defeating nature of human beings

2) Picard Wow. For the first time we really see Picard as not the square shouldered explorer but as an old man trying to atone for the guilt of Data’s death. We see someone frightened with old wounds of Borg assimilation coming back to the surface. I like this because it shows Picard as a tragic character. In spite of all that he has achieved the Borg assimilation still deeply defines who he is. The irony is that he discovers this in a place where Borg are restored. Picard reminds me of King Lear, a once mighty monarch now alone and at the end of his life,facing the demons of the past. But there is a hopeful bit her. Hugh,who was helped by Picard, now returns the favor by reassuring him that the xB are benign. However….

3) Hugh At times he was both reassuring and creepy. I got the sense that maybe he is not really freeing the Borg. That is when they panned to the shot of the xB having his eye fixed I was wondering if he was crying tears of joy or tears of sadness. Plus why would xB know the name Locutus? There is definitely something in the Borg Reclamation project that does not sit right with me.

4) Who thinks we will see Elnor again? Perhaps Elnor is not what he appears

5) This is the first time the Romulan culture has been given such depth.

I really liked this episode.

VZX

Elnor was in the the preview for next week. I’m sure we will see him again.

Yes, Chabon stated he wanted to expand Romulan culture like how Ron Moore did with the Klingons on TNG and DS9. I am really enjoying it. Although I’d like to see more of the arrogant Romulans we have seen on previous shows.

ML31

” but as an old man trying to atone for the guilt of Data’s death.”

I didn’t see any of that in this episode. I just saw an old square shouldered explorer trying to uncover a mystery the way Picard of yesterday would. Yes, being on a cube seemed to trigger some assimilation memories. But he is still the same self confident and morally infallible man we knew from the TNG days.

Partha

@ML31 The guilt over Data’s death, IMHO, overshadows this entire series in terms of Picard. I agree that he is still fairly self confident and morally infallible man we knew but I appreciate the fact that now mortality is looking him in the face. He has mentioned that he has little time left and he wants to make things right. I felt like it was like a scene with King Lear where he regretted that he ruled in a kingdom where there were so many poor who had no shelter and he could do nothing for them when he was king. I think Picard feels similarly with regards to Data and the Romulans. That is what I meant by atonement.

ML31

I see him as someone who wants to feel useful. Tending to the grapes just isn’t fulfilling to someone like him. He wants to “make a difference” again. Just like how he talked Kirk into coming back with him when Kirk seemed satisfied to relax at first.

PEB

Honestly I saw Picard as something of a former POW suffering from PTSD. It was so visceral. Being back on a cube again after all this time, coming face to face with something he’s grappled with ever since Best of Both Worlds. Great directing and great acting there.

KTrek

The earliest I’ve been able to watch is 11:06 PT.

Marja

Great and thoughtful review Partha! Thanks! I have a “vibe” about Hugh, too.

shiro

I enjoyed this episode quite a bit. The new characters are beginning to develop nicely too. Raffi, Rios and Elnor are bit by bit demonstrating their initiative and professional skills, growing into a crew, while still struggling and balancing their personal demons. Still waiting for Jurati to become interesting. The Soji/Romulans arc is moving at last and becoming interesting, with an enjoyable peeling of Romulan culture (would still like to see some traditional outfits though). And the callbacks to classic Trek are nicely done, but Hugh, don’t you remember Geordie?

VZX

I thought it would have cool to here a little talk about Geordie as well, but then I thought maybe Hugh was worked with Geordie quite a bit in the past twenty years, maybe that’s how Hugh got the job for all we know. Still would have been nice to hear his name, even though I complain about too much fan service.

If Picard didn’t have time to explain what Soji was, there was hardly time to catch up on mutual friends.

Frankly, I really appreciated this sense of urgency and forward momentum.

Tuvok47

Soji’s Flotter lunchbox had me doing a quick rewind and pause. And mention of the Sikarians and their spatial trajector. Great Voyager Easter eggs!

John Bigbootee

Loved that too, Tuvok. The Sakarians just wanted to paaaarty (that leader dude really wanted to get with Janeway. Too bad the Borg didn’t assimilate their festive outlook on life as well! :)

Legate Damar

I don’t think anyone in the galaxy will be too upset that the Sikarians were assimilated. Those guys sucked. And I loved the Flotter lunchbox.

I didn’t think we’d find anything this good so deep into The Impossible Box, but holy $h!t that was awesome! This would have been a near-perfect episode if Elnor hadn’t ruined it with his “choose to live” BS again, but wow! This was the best one since the premiere! So glad I stuck with this show after the awful run of the last 4 episodes.

Honestly, my only criticism is that did Narek really think a synth couldn’t break through a WOOD FLOOR?!?! How stupid are these Romulan sibs?

strangelove

only part of it was made out of wood, i think?

Just Another Salt Vampire

You can hear her punch through metal also.

ML31

You could but it almost feels like after it was shot they realized it looked like the floor was just wood and added sounds of breaking metal in post in hopes of fixing that problem. Myself, I first thought that room was a holo suite anyway.

But my nit to pick here was not only did it feel premature to end her the way they tried to but it felt it would be prudent to keep her around until they could confirm what she “remembered”. In fact, that was my very first thought. “Why aren’t you holding on to her ‘just in case'”? They should have kept up the charade and once they knew the intel was good, they could just phaser her in the back or something.

Yes, exactly! I mean, even if they kept her alive in that room long enough to locate the planet that she *may have* been built on (which, of course, does not mean that’s where the so-called “nest” is located), they could have used a force field to keep her in there, or have her call her AI mommy to put her to sleep for awhile. But in any case, don’t use radioactive poison gas to kill her or any method that would give her a chance to “activate”. Yeah, phaser rifle probably would have disintegrated her immediately without giving her a chance to react. If these siblings are Tal Shiar, they must be the worst Tal Shiar agents in the history of the Empire!

ML31

That means of execution to me had a thaleron radiation vibe to it. Or that Beyond weapon Edison wanted to use on Yorktown.

But we have to realize that if they just had two guys with disrupters show up to blast her then she would not have the opportunity to activate and escape. Which is what the plot needed so…

Kevin Lee

Plus, she could hear Romulans approaching across the decks and through who knows how many bulkheads but she couldn’t hear Narek’s sister voicing her dastardly exclamations on the other side of the wall as she was going through her discovery process. Really?

noraa

That’s because she hadn’t been activated yet. She could only punch through the floor and the hear the Romulans coming after she was activated. You could tell how surprised she was that she could hear them coming.

Nachum

They are really, really worried about her activating. All she needs to do is see a disruptor and it could set her off. He probably figured this was safest.

ML31

The only excuse I can think of is they underestimated her strength and durability when activated. The plan would have worked had she not had been capable of punching holes in Borg metal. But I would then question how could they NOT know that?

Jtrekker

I think you’re forgetting that Narek truly does have feelings for her. He doesn’t want to, but he does. He’s putting on a show for his sister, and if nothing else, I think he was trying to kill her with the radiation as possibly an option to not have to shoot her or destroy her directly himself. The radiation gave him the chance to walk away, like he did. But, yes, I don’t think he ever considered that she could activate and free herself. That was an oversight on his part.

ML31

Nah… If he was really falling for her then that is a rather inhumane way to do the job. If he didn’t want to do the deed himself he could have had two of his henchmen do it. The method he chose also affords her the opportunity to escape. Which suggests he really might have wanted her to have that chance.

WILLIAM COZART

what are the chances that Narek intentionally used the slow-moving gas approach as a clandestine way to trigger her activation so that she may free herself and escape?

ML31

If he did then he is also sacrificing any hope of any kind of relationship with her. It would be fairly noble as he allowed her a chance to escape knowing they would never be together again.

Nachum

I actually loved the “choose to live” line. From when we’ve heard it before, it carries a lot of menace. It also would have been a good way to leave them- i.e., did they make it or not? Well, Elnor said “choose to live,” which means none of them will. (There were other touches, like Hugh saying, “Can you hold them off for a few minutes?” and Elnor calmly saying, “I won’t need a few minutes.”

We’ll find out next week. :-)

Spiked Canon

i liked it as well for the same reasons

William Cozart

I don’t mind the line being repeated, reminded me a bit of Worf’s frequent statement the “Today’s a Good Day to Die” throughout STNG and later.

DS9Rules

I’m thinking Narek wanted her to escape, and he was just establishing some plausible deniability with the radiation.

William Cozart

T thought so too

luke Montgomery

BEST. ONE. YET.

Ray

Did anyone notice from the last episode that when Jurati was in the process of killing Bruce Maddox that she did the Lore facial tic from STTNG episode 1×13 “Datalore”?

kmart

Okay, with that little ‘find’ about the tic, I think you folks have finally gotten me interested enough to subscribe, even though the only system I have that is compatible with CBSAA is my little Mac computer monitor. Will be a challenge to watch on a 26″ screen again, but I think I’m going to bite the bullet. Plus it’ll be a business expense.

There are definitely facial ticks I agree.

More, it seems like different directions for action are warring inside her in more than the usual sense. Elnor’s too probing question to Jurati was very perceptive. He may have been seeing truths others weren’t.

I had thought that Jurati had just been subjected to some kind of Romulan or Reman mind control, but you guys are convincing me.

As well, Jurati’s ‘superpower’ of knowing when she’s making a mistake also strongly points to deep coding. It can’t be just coincidence that it was mentioned in the episode where Soji realizes something is deeply wrong.

At this point, I’m wondering if Jurati was compromised back at the beginning, when the synthetics were developed.

Baxter

A good ep, definitely improved from last week. However the show is just so slow.

Jay

Its not slower than STNG…

stanlowcrickets888

Yes, could have used editing out the overused Soji dream scenes. I wish Hugh and Picard had more time to discuss and catchup…mentioning La Forge. Raffi and the bottle scenes were sooo cliche, yet Rios did the right thing by taking iit away, wish he reprogrammed the replicators to eliminate Raffi access to alchohol….instead give her synthol (limited buzz formulation).

ML31

More Picard Hugh time would have felt forced. I suspect only the super hard core TNG fans would have enjoyed Picard and Hugh discussing how things were going for each other. What episode did was good. They had a moment, then the story had to take precedent. My only thing is it might have been good for those who don’t recall to mention why Hugh was so eager to work with and help Picard. I recall there was a Hugh episode but I haven’t seen it for some 30 years now and forgot specifics. I only remember that they thought about using Hugh to be a carrier for deadly nanobots to wipe out the collective but then Picard decided against it. I do not recall at all what became of Hugh. Then I was reminded on this site that he showed up again in an episode where I literally remember nothing about. Normally when I do not recall episodes it’s because they were so mediocre that there was literally nothing to remember them for. Bad eps I remember for being bad. Good ones for being good. But mediocre ones tend to be forgettable.

c d

He took the bottle, yes, but I got the impression he was going to drink himself.
>;>}

Spock Jenkins

Slow?
It may be a generational thing – I think younger fans who are used to “instant gratification” culture of Instagram/Snapchat/TikTok may be a bit impatient.

For me the pacing and editing worked just fine.

VZX

Yes, I enjoy the slower pace. Too much too fast does not allow one to appreciate it. This pace reminds me of Breaking Bad, which is a very good thing.

Kendo

This isn’t slow its geriatric with a frame speed, remember this series is 10 episodes not the 22 or so from TNG. We are over half way there (episode 6 of 10) and there is no story, bad acting and poor effects. This has to be a money making effort for the franchise and an ego boost to stewart

Marja

Spock J,
Yes, this episode picked up the pace a fair bit. Pieces are coming together. I still hate Narek’s sister and the stupid Cersei incest vibe she puts out.

I wonder if Narek’s “impossible box” is some kind of tribute to or shade on JJ Abrams and his precious “mystery box” ….

Ray

As far as the show’s speed, Picard is serialized–one long ongoing story–whereas TNG had to introduce and conclude everything within 1 episode. The show’s speed does have the effect of looking forward to the next episode, for sure. I totally understand how it can be frustrating.

JohnNotJonathan

The “slow pacing” complaint has to be a generation thing.

I’m also seeing this as one story spread out over ten episodes and so the pacing really has not really been an issue (speaking for myself of course). However, if they end up tying up all the loose threads in a rush in the final episode then I will change my opinion.

ML31

With only 4 episodes left it certainly feels like things will wrap up awfully fast else they leave a huge cliffhanger.

helenofpeel

I’m 64, began watching the original series in 1966. This episode IS slow. Mostly, the entire season, except for episodes 1 and 5. It is mindnumbingly slow.

ML31

I found episodes 1-3 mindnumbingly slow. Since then it has sped up to normal speed.

J_Randomuser

It still says “unavailable” on my Amazon Prime account. Anybody else having this issue? Have my CBSAA rolled into Amazon on Roku.

stanlowcrickets888

I had to retry a few times yet it played without issues. Yet it is network related and maybe location related.

J_Randomuser

I think the issue is on their end. I’ve tried it on multiple devices and it’s still unavailable. A few folks on reddit said they’re having the sane issue….

VZX

This episode kept on freezing up on my several times. I don’t think it’s my network since my Netflix and Disney+ work totally fine. I think it’s a CBSAA thing

ML31

It very well could be a CSAA thing. But I found when I watch it at a time when there is less demand to watch, I get few or no glitches. Twice I watched at 5am and on one viewing I got one glitch and another I got none.

VZX

I actually watched this at 5:45 am today. But should there really be any problems based on demand? I get that CBSAA is not as big as Netflix or Disney+, but I find this service very difficult to navigate and play.

ML31

” But should there really be any problems based on demand?”

You will get no argument from me on that.

Jay

Please ask for technical support. It takes all the fun out not being able to watch the show. I have no issues with CBSAA on Roku.

Alex

I have been unable to watch on Amazon Prime first thing in the morning… I have the CBS app on iPad and watch it there first and then later I can watch on AP.

martin

Dumped the channel on Amazon this morning. They couldn’t give me a reason for the delay, just said wait 24 hours. Eff that. My month ends Monday. Picked up CBSAA direct and the free week is now, and paid month will start on 3/5. Probably just get that month and then cancel again, unless they announce Discovery within 45 days or so of Picard ending, which I doubt.

Well it‘s a step up from last week but overall the show just isn’t growing on me. The kiss was unnecessary but it seems like we just can’t have shows without copious amounts of sex anymore. Trek shows used to imply the sex if it was there at all and that was a good thing. If every other show does it, it differentiates your show; makes you stand out from the crowd. And I do remember that people didn’t exactly cheer, when the producers tried, to make Enterprise „sexier“ by having all that PG nudity. It‘s a general problem with having Trek in a streaming service now, I guess … just because you can get away with more stuff, doesn’t mean, it makes the show better. Not having all that stuff, actually made the depicted future almost unnaturally clean. Which was kind of the point, if you think about the universe, Gene wanted depicted on screen. The Rafi-is-an-alcoholic/addict is already getting on my nerves. It‘s a generic storyline you could do in any show. If you‘re not doing anything special with it, why have it in there at all? Just addiction is boring. We‘ve seen it a thousand times – and better – in other shows. If you want to do it, fine. But show me what addiction and dealing with addiction is like in the future. How we can be better than we‘re today. That‘s what Star Trek used to be about after all. How humans can become better in the future. Showing a humanity that‘s left its infancy. Sure, you could say, that addiction is one thing, that doesn’t change and that would be a fair point. But you’d still need to find a way, to tell it through the lens of a science fiction show. Otherwise: why have it in your SciFi show at all? Same again with the language. I hate the contemporary language and generic dialogue. Star Trek always had a very specific way of talking. A very deliberate way that was different from the usual dialogue on literally every other show on TV. it differentiated Trek from everything else on TV. It was An important part of what made the show special. It added to the universe. So why in the everloving fuck would you change that?! It‘s pretty much the sole reason, I speak English today instead of just my native German. It always was one of the most intelligent details of the show: the way humanity had changed over the centuries would of course bring with it a familiar yet different more clean, deliberate way of talking. You could even say, that it‘s the universal translator, which wouldn’t do colloquial English but an idealised form of it. On a matter of taste: I hate those holographic displays. They look stupid and they‘re more inconvenient, than just regular interfaces. They also don‘t really make sense in Universe. The Star Trek Holograms were always those perfect recreations of what they‘re supposed to be. So I get, that in 2399 you‘d have a stick, that – when activated – turns into your tricorder or your desktop PC being a hologram, that just „materialises“ on the desk. However they would not look like those translucent Star Wars Holograms but like actual physical objects. I mean, that‘s what the mobile emitter was all about. As for the Story. The Actress, who playes Soji does a great Job, but I really don’t care about her storyline at all. And her incestious romulan boyfriend is just a plain weird character. Picards arc didn‘t really make sense, since we had a whole movie, where he learned that the Borg are just victims and not the monsters, he thought them to be since „Best of both Worlds“. He even overcame his PTSD by the end of that movie. So having the same arc again condensed into 10 Minutes of screentime, was pretty much useless. I do believe, that the freeing of Borg on a massive scale, could have been a really interesting story, had it not been embedded in that weird romulan conspiracy storyline. But still …. that part was the highpoint of the episode for me. Also: was that Transporter the same one, the Voyager crew tried to buy by trading in the Stories in the Databanks of the ship? If so, wasn’t the point of that episode, that it only works near the planet? (Not really important, just thought of it 😁) Overall a pretty middle of the road episode. Looking forward to seeing John Frakes next week. But I don‘t think, I‘ll be watching a season two of this. Those are my thoughts. You don‘t have to agree with them. If you do disagree, feel free to do so, however I‘d ask you to be nice. We‘re all… Read more »

What are you talking about? There was no on-screen sex in this episode.

Really? That what you take away from all this? 😅

I didn‘t mean sex as in intercourse but as in needlessly sexualising characters and stories. I mean it‘s pretty obvious I‘m talking about the kiss here but also Picard and Discovery in general. It‘s just all so needlesly sexualised. Even if this particular episode isn‘t the worst culprit. And this isn‘t the point that‘s most impotant to me. I just happened to be the first one that came to my mind, when writing this.

Ambassador Sybok

While we’re harping on about sex and “Star Trek”…. HA! This is a franchise that has NEVER shied away from pushing the envelope with sexual content. Look at “The Cage” and Vina’s Orion Slave Girl look. Look at just about every female guest star over the course of the three seasons and you’ll see more skin than you can shake a Phaser at. And Gene put plenty of jiggle and jangle in the first season of TNG as well – Tasha’s underboob when she seduced Data in “The Naked Now”, the planet where everyone ran in their little handkerchief costumes and Wes got sentenced to death for falling on a flower bed in “Justice”. And DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery and Picard are just following the trend. For once Picard sticks with Gene’s Vision(TM) and people still complain about the show.

Pleaseletmecritique

I agree that a lot of Star Trek fans are complaining about Disco and Picard (gratuitous sexualization of characters, foul language and over-the-top gross torture scenes) when actually a lot of this kind of content has appeared in Star Trek before. It SEEMS hypocritical.

But I would like to explain, for myself, why I found the above mentioned content objectionable in this new star trek.

1. The Context
I am less able to forgive the ‘creative choices’ because generally speaking its the bad writing that lets the show down. The example of 7 of 9’s mercy killing scene stands out. I’ve heard it said that the writers had no choice to make a short, sharp, shocking scene to explain Seven’s motivation for murdering that woman at the end because they didn’t have a lot of time. Why didn’t they have a lot of time? Because the screenplay that they wrote and its overall ‘arc’ of the show results in characters being shoved in without the time to carefully flesh them out. There are other examples… Raffi’s drinking is one. I mean, why? Before we even get to know her and care about her descent into addiction its shoved in our faces…look! shes got a bottle! shes drinking the bottle! look! its a bottle!! shes got the bottle becauses shes an alcoholic!!! Can you see? Picard even got her a bottle!!!

2. Frequency & Priority
I am less able to forgive the creative choices because the graphic scenes are frequent, have no character consequences beyond shock value and are used utterly inappropriately. Examples include pointless incest scenes (again, the opportunity for real taboo style drama isn’t even realized here since its the first and only thing you remember about the characters and it gets boring and creepy fast), the grand-admiral of all starfleet dropping the f-bomb when talking to someone who literally saved the planet a few times & putting the torture scene at the very beginning of the episode. If that was someones first taste of Star Trek…anyway.

3. The Lazy Production
In the 1980s and 1990s film crews and actors would produce 20-25 episodes a season. The sets were cheap, the special effects were god awful and lets face it, some of the acting was pretty bad. But non of that you can pin on laziness. The fact that they only have 10 episodes to produce, a huge amount of experience, lore, already-established characters and technology to draw upon….and they can’t even edit a fight scene or a dream sequence correctly is a symptom of a bigger problem that is inherent to New Trek. Its not the creative decisions that lets them down, its the unprofessional execution.

Summary
The fact that producers and directors need to go online and explain characterizations, plot points and creative decisions is evidence that what they produce (and they aren’t being asked to produce a lot) is leaving too many gaps or logic problems for fans – who, yes, are picky and hardcore, but we have money we want to spend – to get their heads around. The fact that you have to read books and comics to understand the overall arc of a show is indicative of the same problem.

Get back to episodes. Bring in some experienced hands. Produce some good ol’fashion space adventures and when you get good at those, do a few “2 or 3 parters”… and then you can go for your season-long arc. And if you think I’m being ol’fashioned…look at The Orville and look at The Expanse… examples that Episodic and Serialized science fiction shows can be loved by their fans for very different reasons…. if its produced professionally.

Danpaine

Nice post, Pleaselet…

Yeah, Gene was kind of pervert, that‘s true. But I was talking more on a thematic level not so much in the costumes. And your examples are mostly from the 60s and 80s … you could find more examples of sexism in TOS and early TNG (some Even later) but that‘s nothing to aspire to.

Not that I‘m saying Picard (the show) is sexist. Though you probably could make that point. I‘m saying, I don‘t Need the characters coupled up for no reason. If you want to develope a relationship fine. But acually develope it and have it serve the story.

I‘m still remembering that stupid coupling of Seven and Chacotay in the last episode. Oder the one of Worf and Deana – also in the last episode I think 😅

Well, from what Jonathan Frakes said in the podcast, Jeri Ryan wouldn’t have been open to coming back if Seven hadn’t been freed from being a sex object.

Definitely, 90s Trek had it’s issues with objectification of women.

I mean … yeah … what they gave her to work with was terrible. I mean in general: why does she have to be a “Ranger” vigilante? Why not have her work with her mind at the daystrom institute? That would be empowering to women. Giving her some real clothes and having her murdering people may no longer be sexist. But it’s not exactly a role model for young girls … who wouldn’t be able to watch the episode because of it’s mature rating.

I feel bad for Jerry Ryan. She seems to be a genuinly nice person. She deserved a lot better that the role they’ve given her.

VZX

Good episode. But I have some nitpicks:
The new Borg set designs remind me of a cross between Cybertron from Transformers and The Grid from Tron. The alcoves especially look Tron-esque with the lights outlining the shapes of the structure. I don’t like it.

Also, was there some Borg-theme music from the The Best of Both Worlds episode being played? I’ve learned to listen for some old school Trek themes with this show. It’s getting a little fan-service-y.

I don’t like Agnus anymore. But I still really like Raffi, she’s my favorite on the show.

If Elnor is so clueless about things, how did he sneak to the “Queen Cell” without anyone noticing? It was still cool, though.

Solid episode. Better than the lest one.

stanlowcrickets888

Borg assimilated the ‘cybertron’ tech or from some other similar kind of planet which explains the cubistic walls and design.
Transformers is a Paramount/CBSViacom IP and there was a Transformers/Star Trek comic crossover ;-$

VZX

Makes sense. But all this new design looks too symmetrical to me. The Borg design used to be asymmetrical. The moving blocks in the walls do remind me of the Fall of Cybertron video game.

Again, these are nitpicks. I do like the show over all. The meeting between Hugh and Picard was nice.

c d

Don’t nitpick about what the Borg sets look like. It’s just a visual reboot.
>;>}

Douglass Abramson

Transformers is a Paramount license for theatrical films. It is Hasbro’s IP. The comic had more to do with the publisher having the license for both properties and looking for a follow up to a couple of Star Trek/DC crossovers they had done.

Josiah Rowe

Elnor is clueless about social interactions and deception. He’s not clueless about fighting, which presumably includes some training in stealth.

VZX

I suppose you’re right. I’d like to see more stealthy-ninja-Elnor though. Perhaps he is so stealthy that we didn’t see him be stealthy! Now that’s some next-level stealth right there!

JohnNotJonathan

I’ll second the “more stealthy-ninja-Elnor” request.

JohnNotJonathan

I was wondering if anyone else thought the alcoves drew more than a little inspiration from Tron. It could also have been my imagination but the soundtrack playing around that scene seemed Tron-inspired.

Mostly because I am a fan of Tron I didn’t hate it, I have to admit.

Plamen

Maybe easily the best episode so far. A lot of redesign for the Borg cube, but i think it works.
The characters start to develop and the storiline is getting complex and interesting enough.
My only concern i that they might start to kill off the rest of TNG characters, but to be seen.

Mathew

I really enjoyed this episode. The general movement throughout was good. I knew Picard would have some PTSD issues. Loved the minor callbacks to his rage at the end of First Contact. My only issue is one of visual continuity at the beginning. When the Locutus image is layered over Picard’s actual face it is done incorrectly. Locutus had Borg implants on the right side of his face. If he was looking at himself in an image those parts would be on the opposite side. So when they layered the image on top of him looking straight on that should not have lined up. But for dramatic effect, it works. This episode was great. Definitely felt like a 5th episode though instead of a 6th. Idk if I can rank this one compared to the rest because this one felt like a movie and not a part of a tv show. It’s weird for me. It was great…just weird.

Jay

Every episode is getting better. Can’t wait another week!!!

Denny C

This was a deep dive into Star Trek across multiple series and films. Color me impressed.

Tiger2

This one was pretty good! Liked it more than last weeks for sure. So many cool little call backs. Did everyone else pick up when Hugh mentioned the Sikarians, which was the race Voyager ran into very early on in the Delta quadrant and tried to use their spatial trejector tech to jump farther ahead but couldn’t get it to working? Well leave it to the Borg to find a way lol. It would also suggest they have expanded their reach in the Delta quadrant as well since the Sikarians were nowhere near Borg space.

I’m loving that the writers really did their homework and diving into the past Star Trek canon from all the shows and movies, especially Voyager! It makes this era of Star Trek feel so much more lived in. This is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted. Focus on Picard and his journey but add as much to the overall mythology from all the shows without overkill.

Loved Hugh and Picard interacting. It felt more special to see them together than he and Seven last episode given their long history. I still wish we could’ve got a Hugh, Picard and Seven scene where they all just sit around a former Borg support group talking, minus Icheb of course. :(

It looks like we FINALLY got the info the Romulans were looking for with Soji…took long enough lol. But pretty excited to see where it all goes now. And we will be running into Number One and his imzadi next week. CAN’T WAIT!!!!

The episode wasn’t perfect though and there were a few nit picks (looking at YOU Agnes) but will save them for later. Overall though it built on the last few episodes nicely and FINALLY pushing the story forward.

ML31

What previous Trek, apart from Voyager and First Contact, were referenced here? What did I miss?

Brando

Best of Both Worlds, Decent part II, The Neutral Zone

Tiger2

Yep, those and others like Nemesis when Narak leaves the toy on the table to emit radiation in the room to kill Soji. There was also a shot of the Romulan meeting in DS9 from Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

ML31

OK… I’m not really counting plot elements from Nemesis as that is like saying because it is Star Fleet they are using an element from TOS. That said, I am not seeing anything lifted from TOS or DS9 or Enterprise.

Tiger2

It’s just a callback. That’s what it means, things that were either inspired or seen from other episodes or movies. Its not meant to be ‘plot elements’.

And when I said all the shows and movies, I was talking about the series as a whole, not just this episode specifically. Although now that you mention it, I think Enterprise so far is the only show that hasn’t been referenced in any way yet, but every other show has. But they done a really good job of making the universe feel lived in and connected. For big fans like us they’re fun to catch!

ML31

What was the DS9 connection?

I still am muddled about Maddox’s destroyed lab vs wherever Soji and Dahj were created.

If the Tal Shiar destroyed Maddox’s lab before Picard and La Sirena left Earth, what’s left in terms of a nest to find?

I do think that the Khat Vash siblings have squandered an opportunity by attempting to destroy Soji.

Tiger2

It SOUNDS like he had hid more away that no one else knew about, right?

I think what they are suggesting the Romulans thought they had destroyed everything but then found out about Dahj and Soji and somehow figured out more were out there (although they only know about Soji because it was Maddox who sent her to the cube in the first place). I’m sure we will find out more obviously but my feeling is Maddox knew it was a danger to have them all in one place and just secretly spread them out away from everyone, including the Federation. But again it seems crazy you would literally send one directly to the enemy as well, but I’m not going to overthink that until we at least know WHY he did it. I’m guessing the writers have a real strong reason to do it because it makes no sense now lol.

Trek in a Cafe

Picard’s return to the Cube reminded me of my experience accompanying a Holocaust survivor back to a concentration camp. It rang so true to me that I held back tears. I wish we could have spent longer on the Cube.

Also,Narek’s real name Nrni Yan, sounds like rien, or “nothing” in French.

Romulan Borg Queen? Narek’s sister?

Bravo!

Hauke Fischer

Or Sela perhaps. In StarTrek Online she was Preator for a while at least.

Douglass Abramson

I still think she could be behind everything going back to the attack on Mars. Synthetics, Starfleet, Jean Luc Picard and weak Romulans. It pushes all of her buttons.

Dan

It rang true for you? Are you a holocaust survivor then? How old are you??

Trek in a Cafe

Hello Dan: I wrote that I accompanied a Holocaust survivor. Perhaps what I wrote I was unclear: my friend returned to the camp that he barely survived – In the early 2000s.

Watching Picard return to the cube reminded me of what it felt like when I was there, in the camp with this man who had survived beIng in that camp. That Is what I experienced firsthand.

Danpaine

Wow. Now I’m looking even more forward to seeing this episode. Respect. Thanks for sharing that, Café.

Mark Calcagno

They said they walked with a holocaust survivor, and seeing their reactions obviously affected Trek in a Cafe.

ML31

Well things are certainly moving.

The thing that I noticed this morning was while this was the longest episode it certainly didn’t feel like that watching it. All of the first three felt twice as long. I really don’t want to hear from folks telling me they needed to set things up. I know that. I get that they had to do that. It’s just that it really didn’t need 3 episodes to do it.

That Queen transport thing felt like a convenient contrivance but… What the hell. Let’s go with it as the show has been getting a little more interesting lately. At this point this is easily the best season of any of the Secret Hideout Trek seasons and it isn’t even close. No, the show is not great but it’s finally watchable. Although the rewatch level of this show is still non existent. Even if the final 4 episodes are really through the roof good, I really don’t want to sit through that first act ever again.

Was nice that Legolas finally had something to do. He’s been a 5th wheel for a bit.

Forced to admit Picard still having assimilation issues I thought was a bit over the top but still decently done. After his growth in First Contact I figured most of his Borg issues were put behind him. I guess it was really just his desire for revenge that was put behind him.

At any rate, it feels like this show may be running at breakneck speed to the end. We shall see how that goes.

Barabbas

On Soji being unable to see her father’s face…

Has Maddox lied to us? If he could clone / replicate Data’s positronic net, why not bring back Data?

But not Data as we knew him… instead a “flesh and blood” copy.

It provides a perfect way for Brent Spiner to appear in minimal makeup later this season and have him be the true father to his daughters.

Josiah Rowe

It’s an interesting thought, but I don’t think that the obscured face was hinting at the return of Data; just that the father Soji has memories of isn’t her “real” father (depending on your point of view, there are arguments to be made for both Data and Maddox).

Also, Maddox told Bjayzl that his lab had been destroyed, so I don’t think the technology to remake Data as “flesh-and-blood” exists at the moment.

(Though, come to think of it: the Tal Shiar we’re looking for the planet in Soji’s dream, with two red moons… so either the destroyed lab was not the one on that planet, or the lab was destroyed by someone other than the Tal Shiar. Either possibility is, as Data would have said, intriguing.)

Glad you’re puzzled by the lab destroyed, lab found thing too.

Definitely more going on with that and the orchids.

GG1701

Finally, a good episode, and without too much silliness this time.

Picard wasn’t goofy (for once). The dialogue was better. Some good fan service with Hugh (and, they used the original actor for once, unlike Icheb and Maddox).

My only complaints (still) are Raffi and Dahj/Sodji. I don’t care for their performances in most episodes. Raffi bugs me (as a character) with the drinking and drugs and attitude, and the actress comes off awkwardly to me, performace-wise.

Dahj/Sodji.. I swear, if she moves her hair away from her face with her hands one more time mid-scene, I’m gonna lose it. It’s always a sign of bad acting, when the actress moves her hair away from her face. You see it a lot in bad Horror/B-movies. This actress does it constantly, and it gets on my nerves LOL

kmart

The gesture thing … It’s like the ‘acting with hands up’ that Frakes used to be especially guilty of in the pre-beard stage, though he sometimes reverted later on as well.

Some actors need to take the Harry Belafonte lesson Nimoy talked about, where he sat absolutely still for 45 minutes of a performance — then, just by raising his hand up, he positively electrified the audience.

TonyD

With regard to the character of Raffi, I do hope the writers take on her alcohol/substance abuse issues at some point. She’s an interesting character but if she remains a damaged but functioning character who constantly chugs from a bottle or inhales fumes indefinitely I don’t think it does her any favors. I can see her either kicking her bad habits or end up being consumed by them but maintaining the status quo would probably be the worst way to go with her.

Marja

Tony, Raffi will either do something while under the influence that almost gets people killed or she will be useless at a crucial time. Rios/Picard will tell her she needs to shape up, or she will self-condemn then decide this herself.

Having interacted with many addicts, I know it ain’t so simple to quit, though.

Tim

They used even footage from first contact . Never happend before !

Josiah Rowe

Dare we hope that the use of footage from First Contact (and, I think, Best of Both Worlds) finally drives a stake through the heart of the idiotic “alternate license/25% different” nonsense?

(Alas, it might not, as use of footage from “The Cage” on Discovery didn’t kill that stupid notion. There was even somebody spewing it on Michael Chabon’s Instagram page as recently as last week!)

Trellium G

I think Enterprise used some footage from First Contact for their mirror universe episode if I remember correctly.

Harry Ballz

Why didn’t Elnor simply leave with Picard at the end? It made no sense for him to stay behind. Weak writing. Also, why couldn’t they all just beam back to the ship? They didn’t make it clear that they didn’t have that option.
Other than the scenes with Patrick Stewart in them, I’m bored with every other aspect of this show.
Yawn.

He didn’t leave because the writers told him not to. Presumably there’s something they want him to do on the cube.

As presented it makes zero sense.

Harry Ballz

oooooh, SNAP! Good one, Bryant!

shiro

I took it as Elnor chose to stay behind to protect Hugh while he had to close up the Queen’s secret transporter room and, by extension, Picard and his mission.

That’s what happened. It makes no sense. Why would Elnor not go with Picard and then stay at the mouth of the teleportation device — protecting Picard — until it closes, after which he could still protect Picard? It’s the dumbest protection plan in the history of planning.

shiro

Good point. But then again, there’s many things in Trek (and science fiction and, hell, just fiction) that don’t make sense. In this episode, another thing that made no sense is why try to kill Soji by very slowly releasing red gas… There are far quicker ways to terminate someone (ask Seven and Bjayzl). I’m ok with some artistic license, otherwise the stories would be very short indeed.

Datamat

Yep.
For Example. Why didn’t Borg Queen assimilate Picard in First Contact, without all the chit-chat? She just stands next to him, and paces around. She could have but she didn’t because then the movie would not end well. And the heroes have to prevail don’t they!

Marja

And why do mobsters/murderers/heads of cabals always stand brandishing a weapon, describing to the protagonist how they did their evil deeds ….?

Exposition is never pretty

kmart

No, that ‘dumbest protection plan’ still goes to the final act of SKYFALL, when Bond & M decide that the admittedly-penetrated but still fully armed and staffed MI6 will offer less defense than an isolated an undefended old house in Scotland. To quote Bones in TMP, ‘Jim, what the hell kind of strategy is this?’

There was clearly time required to both boot up and shut down the device, as well as to seal up the Queen’s chamber.

Yes, the writers created that requirement, but it justifies why Elnor couldn’t both protect the exit and use it.

Jay

Without a good explanation, it was awkward to see Elnor staying at the Cube. Sure. He wanted to make sure nothing happened to Picard and Soji heading to the other side…but their conversation (Picard and Elnor) didn’t help explaining it well.

He is supposed to be by his side. Always. What if they are going to hell on the other side? Elnor will fail his mission to protect him. (^_^)

I wonder how Rios and the others will rendezvous with Picard. How Elnor will get out of the Cube!?

Jay

Not only that, why Hollywood always open these type of secret doors and leave them open. Hugh could close/seal that secret door to work on the transport and gain the extra time he will need.

ML31

I agree. They made it look like he was needed to fend off some attackers but it turns out none of that was needed. He would have just walked out with Picard and Cyborg girl. Besides, I figure those guards had disrupters. Elron did not have a light sabre. He very likely should have been shot dead.

His Eminence

It’s just lazy writing. We all groaned at the, “Go on without me”. It’s such a tired trope.

Otherwise, a solid episode. FINALLY the plot moves along.

Tiger2

Agreed. Elnor staying behind made no sense at all. It’s about as bad as when Admiral Cromwell died in the last episode of Discovery when she could’ve tried to make it to the blast door or just been beamed out.

Jay

Exactly. Totally true.

Marja

Tiger, I hope they’ll find some way of getting around Cornwell’s needless death. I think they wrote the scene specifically to kill the character. And I’m STILL peeved about it. Indeed, she could have been beamed out site-to-site within the ship. Unless Pike hates intraship transporting as much as he hates holograms. Sorry, Admiral.

CORNWELL: Blast door can only be locked manually from inside. I’m inside. I’ll do it, Chris, you go, you’re the greatest living starship captain. I’ll die with honor so the age 40+ female fans don’t complain too much about my being killed off.

Jay

In the upcoming episodes, hope they don’t kill Hugh or other beloved characters.

VZX

Good points. I don’t care much about Maddox since he was only in one episode of TNG and there was not a strong connection to him, but that Icheb death got to me. It was pointless just to harden 7 of 9. Now I am scared they will kill off a beloved character we like. At this point, it could be anyone except for Picard. RIker, Troi, Seven, Hugh. They could even kill Data again.

I might just cancel CBSAA if any of those characters I loved are killed off. I have better things to spend my money on than a glitchy streaming service with a show that infuriates me. I like the show so far, but am scared about future on-screen deaths.

ML31

While there might be some who consider Hugh a “beloved” character I think it a bit of a stretch to say a guy who showed up twice in seven years would be labeled as such. Hugh could get iced in the very next episode and I wouldn’t care that much. I think the way they handled Icheb was VERY effective. They used a known character of lesser importance to motivate a much better known and loved character of high importance.

I don’t know how data could be “killed” again. He blew up. He’s gone. His little memory download into B-4 did not take. For some implausible reason no one has been able to duplicate Soong’s work. Data is gone forever.

Jay

I have a feeling Data somehow still inside B4. His memories after Nemesis still somewhere, he will only need another body. And that is why we have Agnes on board.

ML31

Even if I buy that flimsy explanation, which I don’t, how could he possibly have memories of something he did not witness or experience himself?

VZX

I was merely making a little joke about Data dying again.

Josiah Rowe
Marja

I could smell that joke from here.

ML31

Fair enough. But Josiah wrote exactly what I was going to.

Josiah Rowe

With a setup like that, how could you not?

Danpaine

“For some implausible reason no one has been able to duplicate Soong’s work.”

Well…put.

Jay

I didn’t realize how much I wanted to see what was happening post Nemesis. Before Discovery, I was begging for any Star Trek. Now this is so amazing. This story is getting better every week. I really like how they are placing Picard in all this. At his age, is not a retired Admiral resting on Earth. Again he is trying to save everyone on major issues for the whole Galaxy.

This series will bring Patrick a good ending to our beloved character. This series will bring Picard to a good ending. As always, he will be saving the Federation, again and again and again.

During the 20 year break, time helped everyone analize what was done in the Berman era. Speaking at conventions. Watching the series many times. Producers and the actors are having an advantage to rewrite previous mistakes. For example, Shatner Kirk, they way he died in Generations, terrible ending for the original Kirk.

We have been fortunate Patrick Stewart accepted this role one more time. He is 80 years old and he could easily say no. Like Shatner and Avery. This time, everyone want to make sure they give him the opportunity to make it right!

I am beginning to like the new crew very much. I cannot stop thinking on my favorite, Rios and Raffi. Santiago Cabrera is doing great, his personality and his holograms. Still not used to hear “JL”, but Raffi, her character background and story is very deep, real, and interesting. At some point, when they save the galaxy, I really hope Starfleet restore Rios and Raffi Starfleet career.

Looking forward for the Enterprise E/F to show up. When will they come to the rescue? On the Finale? Captain Worf? Geordi?

Tiger2

Man I been wanting a post Nemesis story literally since Nemesis ended lol. There is so much that happened in this period of Star Trek I wanted to see it continue in SOME form. It didn’t have to be with the TNG cast or even another show but SOMETHING! It’s great to be back in this era and some ways it was nice to get a longer wait because we did get things like the Romulus star explosion to expand the story line.

Yes also loving the new cast. I think Rios and Raffi are great. They may be pouring it on (get it?) with Raffi but I love the direction of the character in general.

And I’m betting we are going to get an Enterprise E/F appearance. They are just waiting for that to be the surprise moment to have the nerds squeal in delight when it comes lol. I’m totally prepared to be wrong but I was completely right when I said I suspected we were going to see other TNG characters show up first season and that the Borg was a guarantee they were going to return on this show (although I predicted that would happen in the second or third season).

So I’m sticking by that too!

PaulB

I have a feeling they’ll use the Enterprise E/F the same way they used Pike’s Enterprise at the end of DSC season 1. Save it to the last minute as a hook to drag in the fans who didn’t feel engaged by the show so far.

Tiger2

I think that’s what they are going for as well PaulB. I will give them that about Discovery, if NOTHING else, seeing the Enterprise at the end of that awful first season finale blew me away lol. My mouth literally dropped in that moment. And they did a GREAT job of how they played it on the show. The first season finale, we literally just see the ship. But we had to wait until the second finale to really see inside it and what everyone actually wanted to see, the bridge. It was all a great tease and it kept all of us watching. ;)

IF they are thinking the same thing, it obviously won’t have the same impact since we’re all kind of waiting for it now, but KNOWING how that moment energized the fanbase, especially TOS fans, they probably want something like that for this show (although we’ve had some of those moments already). But everyone wants to see the freaking Enterprise and they know it. And knowing how much they clearly love throwing this stuff in already, I can’t see them avoiding it completely.

ML31

When the Enterprise appeared at the end of STD S1 a few things went through my mind. Thinking it was “great” was not a part of it. My first thought was to do a facepalm because it felt like that was their “jump the shark” moment. It was almost like they KNEW their show was a sinking ship and bringing in Pike and the Enterprise was their idea to repair it. For me, it had the opposite effect. As much as I love the original Enterprise I just did not want to see it. They could talk about it but I was hoping it would not cross over. It was a huge let down and major disappointment for me. Granted I was already extremely let down by the enter last act of the first season. But that stunt didn’t help make things better.

I would not be surprised if this bunch try and pull that same rabbit out of their hat again here with Picard. If the E-F shows up (and if I were a betting man I would wager it does) I will likely react with a huge eyeroll.

Tiger2

Well OK but you have to admit that’s not the majority view. If you go back to the discussion about it on this site, most people were generally excited about it. I know some didn’t like the design of it too but I was fine with it personally. And I didn’t really want or expect to see it either (at least not so soon) but once I did I was hooked lol.

I think once they knew they were going into the future this was the time to do it of course. I agree they clearly did it because they wanted to try and repair some of the damage first season caused and this was a start. But I think it was successful to some degree.

ML31

I think it had the unintended side effect of having the fans latch onto Pike far more than their main protagonist. I am forced to admit Pike was a positive from it.

PaulB

The Enterprise reveal was a bit like the TOS fanfare at the end of DSC’s theme. In both cases, it’s a cheap ploy to hook fans. The theme is generic car-commercial music throughout–until the fanfare at the very end. The season was generic action sci-fi that was anti-Trek–until the Enterprise at the very end.

Crass manipulation, poorly done, by unimaginative writers. Ugh.

PaulB

I’m with M31 on this. I found the Enterprise reveal to be a crass attempt to keep fans who weren’t enjoying the show. It was purely manipulative, didn’t serve any narrative purpose, and existed solely to spark interest in season two.

My reaction was like M31, or maybe worse. It was a “WTF, how stupid are they?” moment for me.

Then again, I’m not one of those who finds mere references and easter eggs exciting. For example, Ready Player One was hugely popular, but I loathe it deeply because it’s nothing but a list of things that the reader goes, “Hey, I recognize that. Hey, I remember that.”

That kind of reference-and-easter-egg stuff annoys the hell out of me–but you, Tiger2, rightly pointed out how popular that Enterprise reveal was.

I can’t stomach “fan service” that is so crass. It’s why I loathe Star Wars Episode 9–nothing but bad fan service, but lots of people loved it because “I recognize that ship. I remember that name.”

I don’t appreciate poorly executed manipulation, especially something crass like the Enterprise reveal. That wasn’t a gift to fans; it was a crass hook to save a weak show. Ugh. :)

Tiger2

Yes I get what you are both saying and I agree. It was done to get fans onboard who was severely disappointed with Discovery. But I don’t think its success can be denied because everyone is now screaming for a Pike show lol.

And let’s be honest, we ALL wanted to know what was going to happen next after that even if it did feel manipulative. We were all curious where it was going, would we really see Pike, etc. If the end of that finale just had Discovery warp out somewhere, none of us would’ve been that excited about the upcoming season. That last image is what kept everyone thinking about going into season 2.

And for me, even though I loved that moment I was still skeptical of having Pike on the show full time. I thought it would be a mistake to bring Spock on (although it was no way to avoid it once we saw the Enterprise). I thought what was MORE crass was having Pike come on and basically take over the show because that told me they didn’t think the cast they had now was strong enough on their own. But I was proven wrong, it was great to have both Pike and Spock and in many ways it made the other characters actually BETTER because they now had a different dynamic to play off. I thought Burnham especially benefited because she had a great relationship with Pike and her issues with Spock also played really well. This is just my opinion obviously but that’s why I thought season 2 was just a much better season so many levels above season 1 which I thought was mostly a disaster looking back. Much of it is owed to including the Enterprise even if it still had a lot of problems.

Jay

Well said, Tiger2! I am hoping to see the Enterprise at the end of the season. I was very totally surprise to see Pike and the Enterprise on Discovery. But this time I will be thrilled to see the new one, to find out who is the Captain (Worf!?). Can’t wait to see a TNG Reunion, Guinan, etc!

Thorny

Now that Aron Eisenberg is no longer with us, I think Enterprise-E’s captain should be someone like Sam Lavelle (“Lower Decks”) or Robin Lefler (“The Game”).

The books identity who took over from Picard on the Enterprise-E.

I won’t spoil that, and it’s possible that there’s yet another new Captain 14 years later, but I doubt it.

ML31

Or it’s possible they ignore the non canon material completely.

Thorny

They already have.

The new book written by McCormack for the series has the same person become captain. This is one point on which the old and new book continuities match in detail.

Michael K

Full of great scenes and visual call-backs. The storyline is very well integrated into the Star Trek mythology, often with surprisingly well researched detail. The tone of the episode was more flattened and there was less of that awkward dialogue dumping, but the episode also had no charisma with long scenes of dialogue. The episodes definitely felt more like Star Trek in tone, taking itself a little more seriously. I love the Romulan mythology and I feel the Narek/Soji story paid off in a great way. Hugh and Picard had excellent scenes together, that was definitely the heart of this episode. Some great lines in there to, such as Picard just being glad to have a friend which is a beautiful and tragic thing. Agnes’s internal struggle and the way it is manifesting is way more than I expected from the character. Agnes is suffering from her decisions and the mysterious insight only she has at this point which further magnifies what is yet to be revealed to the audience.

I will say that the show is really starting to feel budget constrained, especially compared to Discovery. That’s not necessary a good or bad thing, but the flashbacks to the First Contact scenes highlights for me the lack of visual excitement in this show. I’m not sure if they are saving it for later, but now that they are leaving the Borg ship, we barely saw any action there. There are just very few action set pieces, very few sets. While the visual FX, cinematography, sound and music are outstanding, the show feels notably constrained and a little claustrophobic. I do love the character building better than Discovery, which is a little too relentlessly forward moving, but there has to be a better balance in here somewhere.

Overall, a solid episode that delights the fans, probably will bore anybody else not into the weeds of Star Trek.

Jay

Well said, Michael K!

Michael K

Thanks Jay!

Tiger2

“Overall, a solid episode that delights the fans, probably will bore anybody else not into the weeds of Star Trek.”

Yeah I agree. I think this show is GREAT for Star Trek fans but I have no idea how a non-Star Trek fan would remotely care about any of it lol. I said this last week in another thread. It’s just too steeped on past Star Trek mythology and plot lines. This entire episode focused on Picard’s PTSD of being a Borg that happened literally 30 years ago already (jesus I feel old lol). And all of that was, per usual, captured in small clips and exposition. Interesting for us, but for people who never saw those episodes or First Contact I don’t know how interesting it is given they still haven’t really shown the Borg in their true form yet.

I have a feeling the Borg stuff isn’t done yet just because Soji is off the cube.

Falco

Tiger, i don’t think you should worry about non-fans being unable to enjoy the show because of all the lore/mythology/references from past shows. I agree that casual fans will miss 90% of the reference, but I don’t think they are crucial for the show (good example is the Sikarians drop from last night). Totally unimportant where they got the tech in terms of the plot but it was a nice call back for us, and most of the “drops” they did were similar to this, Quark, Mot, even Icheb… As for the really important ones, I think you are little underestimating TNG’s impact on pop culture and how big it was back in the 90’s. Non-fans, especially those in the 35+ demographic, have heard about Picard or Borg as much as Spock, Klingons and “Beam me up Scotty”. They are so engraved in pop culture that even non-fans have a familiarity with those references.

But to answer your question: I have a non-fan friend who dropped out of the show after Ep3. The problem for him was not because of the references. The problem was the slow pace. And when I see what the other shows are doing in terms of pacing, this show is slow, no doubt it. The pacing works for us fans, but I don’t think it works for non-fans. And that I think is the only issue when it comes to that part of the audience.

I feel this problem is because the creative aspect of this project is clashing with the business side of this project. And I’m not part of those fans who have problem with CBS is making money out of ST. As a matter of fact, I’m rooting for them to make as much money, because it means the franchise will expand in terms of shows, movies, books, games… PIC (so far) would’ve been a perfect show for a whole season drop, not a weekly release. Sir Patrick Stewart was right about it when he was promoting it. It IS a 10 hour movie. (the season run time will end up like The Irishman :) ) They should’ve dropped the whole season on us. The episodes are so closely neat together that it would’ve been 10 times more fun to watch, plus they wouldn’t have the issue of people dropping out of it because of the pace. They could’ve consumed the whole season in one breath and then make up their minds whether it’s something they like and come back for season 2. Just imagine if The Irishman (if you’ve seen it) was a weekly TV show. It is so slow that I was able to finish it just because it was a movie and it was an Oscar contender. I would’ve definitely dropped if it was a TV show with a weekly drop of episodes.

But as I said above, I also completely understand the business decision behind weekly release. They need to keep us subscribed to whatever platform we are watching the show as long as possible.

I think PIC suffers because it was released this year. CBS has only another ST show (DIS) and PIC is second. So they have 2 shows total to keep us subscribed. If PIC was released 2-3 years from now, they would’ve had DIS, Lower Decks, S31 (maybe another one that is in dev) and they could’ve afforded to make a whole season drop of PIC, because they’ll have 3-4 other weekly shows to keep us subscribed. But today? They can’t afford it.

My 2 cents.

ML31

This fan was not a fan of the first 3 episodes at all. I fully understand why someone not familiar with the IP would drop out. If I wasn’t a Trek guy I would have dropped out too. I found those episodes to be hard to watch because of how slowly they put things together.

Also, I get this is just a business first and CBS has to make Trek so non fans can enjoy and get something out of it. But here is the quandary… Would you rather have sub par to terrible Trek continue to get churned out that makes money for the parent company or no Trek at all? To be honest, I’m still on the fence about this one.

Falco

For me it is not a quandary at all. It doesn’t matter if I’m right or wrong by stating the following, it’s important what I think about it. ENT for me is a sub-par entry of the franchise and I’m happy that we have it. I still add it in my constant rewatch mix of all ST, even though the quality is not good. 30% of it is good, but that leaves 70% with a bad entry for the franchise.

That being said, why would it make me happy to wish that ENT didn’t exist. I’m glad it exists. So yep, I would always take a sub-par Trek to no Trek at all.

Let me throw in another curveball. DIS season 1, we can all agree was a sub-par entry to the franchise. If i’m in the “no-trek” camp, then I would’ve wanted for them to cancel it.

But, by being in the “other” camp, I can say that eventhough the season was bad, it made a great entry with the Burnham entrance of the Vulcan Science Academy episode. It gave so much extra depth to the Sarek-Spock dynamic. It was a beautiful addition to the canon.

Also, by being in the “other” camp, DSC made a second season, where we got Pike, one of the best characters of the franchise and a potential for a Pike show, for which I’m really excited.

And this all came from a sub-par season of a new ST show, which in my mind is always better then the “no-trek” option.

ML31

I’ll just say that you make a good argument. But one I think that would hold more weight if the shows were episodic rather than season long arcs. I think Lethe was a pretty darn good episode myself. But it was the one and only one good one in that entire first season. As good an episode I feel it was, it’s presence for me does not change how very very dreadful Discovery has been and I still am on the fence regarding the original question.

On the flip side, while I couldn’t stand it there are some fans who did. So it feels mean to demand they miss out on something they enjoyed. Regardless of how I personally feel about it.

Thanks Falco. I appreciate your analysis and perspective.

I feel much the same way about Enterprise – but not to have had some of its amazing content and storylines (for me Tripp/T’Pol, Shran and the Andorians/Aenar) would be a real loss.

Tiger2

Hi Falco,

I get everything you are saying and I agree with a lot of it. I want to make this clear though, I’m not suggesting lack of references is the only problem for new fans either. That’s PART of it, but no that’s not the only thing either. As you said its also the slower pace. I agree completely. For most of us its fine, but even for some fans (as ML31 mentioned) not all of them are happy with that either. I’m personally fine with it but same time I’m ready for things to go in higher gear now that we are already halfway through the story.

But what I’m REALLY saying is that this show is just built on so much past history in general I just don’t know how compelling it is for people without really understanding the context.

Perfect example, take Seven of Nine herself. As fans we know all about her history and seen everything she’s gone through since her time on Voyager. When she pops up on this show, there is an instant thrill seeing her. And we all felt for her when Icheb died (you don’t have to actually care about the character but you know what he meant to Seven). But as a newbie watching that episode and Seven talk and talk and talk about her situation, Icheb, being a former Borg and so on the show doesn’t try to do much to SHOW us her former or present life, they just tell us.

Seven is a brand new character for a new audience. They tell them she was a Borg but what does that mean exactly since we haven’t actually seen any real Borg on the show yet? We’ve only seen Xbxs. I’m glad this episode went out of its way to show us Locutus so new fans can understand why Picard struggled so much when he was on the Artifact; but it might have been nice to actually see Seven AS a Borg as well in a flashback at least like how we were first introduced to her. She wants revenge for Icheb which doesn’t have to explain why she’s angry but for a new audience, Icheb was seen for all of two minutes. There is not one flashback of him as a kid or showed why he was so important to her. We just know that he is. Even when Picard acknowledges he knows Seven and while for us its understandable how he would at least know of her, they don’t try to give a stronger connection to new viewers who may not understand all the circumstances that happened with Voyager and why Seven herself is seen as so unique in the Federation. WE KNOW of course but the show doesn’t really make it clear itself.

This is a big problem for the show for a new audience IMO, it just constantly tell us who these people are and their development from decades ago but it doesn’t really try to draw them in or make the connections stronger. They are given a few lines of back story and nothing more. Again IF the story it was telling did not need to rely on so much knowledge of the past it would probably be fine. But its so coated with a lot of mythology its probably really hard to follow with so many strands happening. But at least my view of it. Maybe many of them are fine but I can tell you *I* would be confused lol and probably would’ve gave up by now.

But I agree, its not just that, the pace is probably really slow for a lot of new fans as well, because again, its a LOT of talking about stuff that happened in the past. As great as the first episode was, nearly all of it was talking about things that already happened, from Data to the attack on Mars and the Romulan incident. Dahj was really the only ‘new’ element in the whole thing that both old and new fans were learning about.

And yes maybe if they dropped the entire season in one day it would be easier to stay interested but I still don’t think it would be any easier to follow.

Falco

I see what you mean Tiger2, but let’s really dive deep in your example? Was Seven really necessary for the plot in that episode? Absolutely not. The only thing that would’ve changed without Seven, was that Bjazel would’ve stayed alive and that aspect is totally irrelevant for the whole arc. So Seven’s contribution to the episode or the whole plot was non-existent. It was a great addition for us, but regular Joe won’t be missing out on anything if she didn’t know who Seven was. Granted the cliffhanger from Ep 5 would’ve been weird not knowing who the hell was she, but i don’t feel that the overall story is deprived if you had no idea who Seven was.

That being said, now that it’s confirmed she’ll be back again this season, non-fans will know her and she’ll probably get to be more important compared to the overall arc, instead of introductory and irrelevant B plot that we witnessed last week.

I mean if we go down this road, i’d argue that Bruce Maddoxx is whole lot more important to the plot compared to Seven. Are non-fans deprived because they never heard about the guy? I really don’t think so.

Of course fans will enjoy the show more then non-fans, that’s true for any franchise, but I don’t feel like they are missing out on anything important.

We’ll see how the rest of the season will play out, but I truly think they are handling the reference aspects in the right amounts.

What would be weird (for example) if this seasons cliffhanger is The La Sirena receiving a distress call from DS9. I’ll completely lose it of course, but it will do nothing for non-fans. Thinking of that, the big E and Worf would be the only cliffhanger that’ll work for both fans and non-fans. But i seriously doubt that, because it was already done on DIS.

In the end, let’s assume you are right. That only fans (or people who watched TNG) will really appreciate PIC. I think they are completely fine with that too. There were millions upon millions who watched TNG back in the 90’s. If they manage to convert at least 10% of those fans, and none non-fans, there’ll be a lot of happy executives at CBS.

Falco, I believe Seven (and Icheb’s treatment) were essential to the bigger plot of Picard’s journey from seeing himself as a failed but privileged leader/saviour of the Romulans to recognizing that he is himself a member of a despised and horrifically maltreated minority that he needs to represent, advocate and do what he can do for.

Picard is moving from doing nothing, letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, to acting where and when he can. Seven is making the choice to act outside Picard’s values where Rule of Law does not exist, but she is a credible foil to his paralysis.

Tiger2

The funny thing is Falco I actually brought up Maddox in another thread a week ago literally mentioning the same thing lol. Seven was just ONE example I thought of. But yes you can apply that to Maddox as well. I was talking in general. We have seem all these past characters showing up, but its all been surface level so far in terms of how they been explored.

And I’m not suggesting everyone gets their own two minute flashback or clips from the episodes they were in or anything, that would obviously slow the show down. Obviously you would have to choose your battles. But in Picard’s case they seem to have decided NO ONE outside of Picard himself is getting any real deep dives into who they were, how they are connected to him, etc. The show has decided to just present everyone from Picard’s POV, which is basically the audience POV, the audience that is as familiar with this universe as much as he is.

And I’m not really blaming them, its not easy to try to appeal to a very dedicated and knowledgeable audience like us who spend hours every day talking about a show vs someone new to a 50 year franchise and have to not only understand where everyone’s place is in the universe and how they are all connected, but then have to just understand all the basic minutiae like the crazy technobabble, which species come from which planet, how replicators work and so on. You don’t have the same problems when you’re watching FRIENDS for the first time lol. MOST people will probably be fine if the story itself is interesting enough, that’s the question though, is it? I just don’t know from a non-fan perspective and as said its probably a bit too slow.

But Picard is more unique because it is the first true ‘sequel’ Star Trek has had as a show. It’s literally picking up 20 years to a character that is iconic in the fanbase already.

When Discovery premiered for example, it was clearly designed for both old and new fans to get into like most Star Trek shows. Burnham was brand new so everyone was learning the same things about her in that moment. The first season relied on the Klingon war but you didn’t have to know anymore about it other than they were old foes and the Klingons wasn’t seen for a century until that episode. Once the story started, everything we saw happening didn’t require knowing about the history of the event or the characters because they were literally all new characters minus a few. We got some backstory with her relationships with Georgiou and Sarek (with actual flashbacks) in the pilot but once she got on Discovery then everything was just as new for her as it was for the audience so both old and new fans were on the same page. Old fans just had the advantage of understanding the universe around the show new fans had to catch up on.

Its not the same for Picard. It’s all picking up in Media Res in terms of who that character is and where his life is now since we already watched him for decades for seven seasons on TNG and four movies. And all of that is pretty much ancient history by now.

But again ALL of that said I don’t think it really matters that much. We all know end of the day CBS expects this show to be for devoted fans first and foremost like most old franchises out there. There is also a reason this was the first show out of the gate and not some new spin off. Sure they WANT new fans to get into the show and then probably start watching the other Star Trek shows in time but its clearly not a mandate either.

Star Trek has always had a niche following from literally the day TOS first came on and why it faced cancellation every season. Obviously its fanbase grew over the decades and did bring in a new generation of fans when shows like TNG and the others came on but Star Trek has never been a franchise for the masses like Star Wars and Marvel is and everyone knows that. The one time they REALLY tried to do make Trek for the masses in mind was with the Kelvin movies and that was obviously a mixed bag because end of the day Star Trek is not for casual viewers.

For most it seems to be the type of franchise where either you’re fiercely devoted to it or you don’t give two thoughts about it. It doesn’t have that middle casual group others seem to have for some reason.

Falco

@TG47, i stand corrected about Seven’s involvement in the main plot. But, the impact they have on Picard isn’t downgraded by the fact that the non-fans will have no idea who these people are. At least in my opinion.

@Tiger, you are absolutely right about everything you wrote there, and I’ll use this opportunity to extend on what you wrote in the second half of the comment.

CBS, Kurtzman and co, clearly have a vision for Star Trek and I’m personally impressed about what we saw so far. They are playing the long game and are preparing the franchise for the next 50 years (because we can’t be around forever aren’t we:))

So they are creating multiple shows and targeting whole different demographics.

DIS – Casual viewers
PIC – Casual fans (seen a couple of movies and a bunch of episodes 30 years ago)
LOWER DECKS – Uber fans (cannot wait for this one)
PRODIGY – The future army of Uber fans
ACADEMY – Teenagers

I have no idea where to place S31, because that’s the only decision I can’t wrap my mind around. Only plausible explanation from a business point of view would be the Chinese market since she is really big there.

The only category missing in my opinion would be the Family category, where both fans, non-fans and kids can enjoy the show equally. Could be Pike, or could be something else we haven’t heard yet or maybe that’s the role that the movies need to take. We’ll see, but this is definitely the golden age of Trek and I can’t believe some fans are not joining the ride and missing out on a lot of excitement:)

Tiger2

YEs I completely agree with this too Falco and that’s what Kurtzman is trying to do and expand Star Trek for different people. When Berman ran Star Trek, all the shows were aimed at the same audience. The shows varied in settings and tones but end of the day it was all meant for the same people already watching. In many ways thats great but in other ways bad as others have criticized it because a lot of it fell under the same structure.

In this phase of Trek they are trying to do something different and mix things up for different people. I applaud that. Even though I plan to watch it all, I understand it may not all be something that is made for me. Picard IS definitely made for me as a long time fan. I’ve already written an essay on it lol so I won’t say much more but Picard feels like the show that is paying off hardcore TNG era fans who has been wanting to see what became of the Alpha quadrant post Nemesis and bringing in past story lines and characters into the forefront. Maybe not as much as others have like but it’s not ignoring anything that has already happened and emphasizing characters who was last past in this franchise like Maddox and Hugh. Look how much we gotten in just 6 episodes alone. Imagine where it will be by its third season?

But yeah maybe the animated shows won’t be for me at all but if they are GOOD then they will get an audience easily. I don’t know where Section 31 is placed either other than I’m guessing they are hoping all the Discovery fans at least gravitate to it and why Georgiou is still on that show. But in terms of others, no idea either.

For me though, I’m just happy Star Trek is back first and foremost. All the people who thinks Discovery and Picard sucks certainly can feel how they want about it, but let’s be honest what would we be talking about right now if these shows weren’t on? For that reason alone I want to give it a chance. It’s still very early and right now I’m liking more than I’m hating so that’s a positive IMO.

I think you’re analysis is on the nose Falco.

I’ve also been very impressed by the strategic and tactical thinking behind the new series.

I’m wondering if a Pike series could be targeted to the mass audience (including the family). Otherwise, it would hit much of the same niche as as Picard and Lower Decks.

However if the rumours are accurate that Goldman would have the lead in creating that series, likely not based on what he’s shared in interviews. He was a childhood TOS fan, to the extent of attending the early cons in the 70s.

ML31

I don’t think they are going for demographics as they are going for different genres. STD is, in theory, more action oriented. Picard is supposed to be slower and more reason oriented. Lower Decks is the comedy. Only the Nick show seems to be aimed wholly at a single demographic. In this case, age. And the Section 31 show supposedly is meant to be over the top action/light comedy. I’ve heard it compared to the MI franchise in tone.

I actually think the strategy is sound. The difficulty here is… Will these attempts actually be good?

In Japan, just before Amazon Prime Video released episode “6.”
But actual episode is perhaps “7.”
The director is Douglas Aarniokoski and the duration is 58:42.

OMG.

Weird. Maja Vrvilo is listed as having 2 episodes.

Tiger2

I watched the Ready Room today and I watched it solely for the purpose to see if Jeri Ryan would say if Seven will be back again this season and she confirmed SHE WILL!!! YAAAAAAY!

Seven being on this show is the best thing for me next to Picard himself.

Alex Foster

A question for everyone who has enjoyed the series so far; what the hell did you like about Star Trek so far that you can like this shit? … not meant personally, but Star Trek Picard has logic holes like a Swiss cheese. The scene alone where Elnor appears, kills the Romulan guards and Picard simply says “thank you” is screaming bad. Picard, who wanted to save millions of romulan lives … no lives … suddenly thanks that Elnor kills Romulans? What the hell?

Brando

You must of missed the part when folks ask where he was on the LeSerena

Jay

La Sirena means The Siren

German Trekkie

So you measure your liking of Star Trek on the supposedly small to zero ammount of (tired) tropes, contradictions, plotholes, scenes that are acted and directed not well, canon breaking stuff, … and the disliking of Star Trek Picard stems from too much of the above?

Then I would ask you, what Star Trek you watched. Maybe your memory is quite selective?

As for answering your question: i probably really like swiss cheese ;) even if it has holes here and there, it mostly tastes good.

Thorny

I would argue that “wanting to save Romulan lives” does not extend to those Romulans trying to kill you.

Val Jean

If you all go to Michael Chabon’s Instagram stories, he answers a LOT of questions, many of the ones posted here, such as why Elnor stays behind on the cube, etc….most of them arent too satisfactory, they are more mainly:

Patrick didnt want to repeat anything from next gen
we love star trek but had to make it relevant
i disagree with your opinion, we felt it had to be this way because

Still an interesting read, maybe you can do an article on them.

Trellium G

“we love star trek but had to make it relevant”

Makes me wonder how much that is true when you feel like you must turn something you love into something completely different.

Wishing Star Trek to be completely different is not loving it in my book. I loved it the way it was and didn’t need it to be like all other sci-fi shows.

Now it is Bizzaroland with a few familiar names and that is about it.

Akiva Goldman and Jonathan Frakes covered some of the same ground in the most recent Star Trek: Picard podcast on Deadline. Rod Roddenberry provided some insight into the process on the Ready Room.

I agree that it would be good to have a round up. The interviews give a sincere take on the debates in the writers room.

Avika’s comments made Patrick Stewart’s “don’t repeat” sound more like a challenge to the writers: for example, Stewart knew that the Borg were the strongest enemy of 90s Trek and that the writers and production designers were very eager to get to use them.

Stewart’s insistence not to just bring back the Borg again as they were is in my view a good thing that pushed creativity. How many of us here said a year ago that the Borg had been overused in Voyager and First Contact? Yet, in Picard we have the Borg reinterpreted as victims in a way that is true to the IDIC heart of Trek.

By the way, one of the points coming out in the podcasts is that Avila Goldman is a long-time Trek fan from TOS on. He attended the early fan cons in the 70s no less. So, like Chabon, we may disagree with his choices (e.g. why would he think that a sexual relationship between siblings would be a cool thing?), no one can say he doesn’t know Trek or understand Trek.

My take aways:

-The writers are all strong writers and long time fans. Like the voices on this and other boards, they have diverse and conflicting views about what would work. Saying someone who has engaged actively with Trek for 40 years or more isn’t a fan or doesn’t understand Trek because they don’t see Trek quite your way, is in itself not IDIC.

-Kurtzman as someone who likes Trek, but isn’t as deeply a fan, has the needed distance to exercise an essential challenge function. In fact, he said in an early podcast that he quite uncertain about including scenes on the Artifact before Picard arrives there and meets Soji. I’m wondering if we would have seen yet more on the cube without his intervention.

-Rod Roddenberry’s focus is ensuring that IDIC principles are upheld, and that bickering and conflict among the team is a temporary situation. It sounds as though he too is offering a helpful challenge to the writers to pull back as he comments on scripts.

JAGT

A little observation concerning place names:
Last week we got a glimpse of a planet called “Vergessen”, which, as has already been pointed out, means “to forget”/”the act of forgetting”/”forgotten” in German.
The place where Picard teleports at the end of this episode is called “Nepenthe”, which is ancient Greek for “non-grief”, but is usually translated as “drug of forgetfulness” as per the use of this term in Homer’s Odyssey.
It would seem that forgetting and forgetfulness are some kind of recurring motif now.

DaveCGN

“Last week we got a glimpse of a planet called “Vergessen”, which, as has already been pointed out, means “to forget”/”the act of forgetting”/”forgotten” in German.” Fascinating! I really thought the name was translated for the german dubbed version!!! So, for the german-speaking viewer the meaning of the name has no surprise. (Just like the frase “Luke, I’m your father” was no surprise for dutch viewers in Star Wars, since vader = father ;-) )

Garth Lorca

Yep, and I really, really want to FORGET what happened on Vergessen. But unfortunately, it is now canonical not to be forgotten at any time.

TonyD

Solid episode, easily the best of the show so far. And they got there without any gore and profanity…was that so hard? Picard’s reunion with Hugh was a genuinely uplifting moment as it’s the first time we’ve seen people actually smiling in happiness. Likewise his progression from unease to genuine horror at being aboard the Borg cube felt genuine without getting maudlin. The story moved along at a brisk pace and actually advanced the plot in a meaningful manner. I was unsure of Hugh’s motives as he seemed almost too benign but by the end he had me hoping that he really was just trying to help the xB’s and it will be interesting to see if he and Elnor end up working together (the ending sure seemed to set it up that way). The acting was again solid across the board, Rios again was the most intriguing person in the bunch and Picard’s “they do not change, they metastasize” line about the Borg was genuinely inspired. I sincerely hope they can keep it going.

Hugh is the first person along Picard’s journey who has nothing to reproach him for.

Instead, not only does Hugh seek to help, he wishes to engage Picard in a new call to advocate for the rights of the XBs.

TonyD

I caught that as well and wonder if that may be come back around in the second season. It’s similar to the whole synth rights storyline and the idea of Picard defending freed Borgs is an interesting one.

The thing with Hugh was that for the first 2/3 of the episode he seemed almost too eager to show Picard around. Maybe it’s just my cynical nature or the fact that this show loves to twist known characters around, so I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. It never happened of course and he helped Picard right until the end so I hope they don’t try to get clever-clever with him.

The XB that called out Lotus may be a clue.

Picard was a special Borg, given a name, intended to be the communicator. Perhaps the collective memory creates some kind of natural leadership or attachment that XBs retain.

TonyD

Definitely felt like more than a throwaway line, especially as Picard even took the time to look over his shoulder for the Borg who said it.

Marja

It gave me the creeps.

DeanH

Much much better!! Back on the band wagon after falling off last week.
I know some felt the plot was moving too slowly, but today I think that changed.
Great was great to see Hugh and Picard in the reunite scene and I am really starting to like the stories of the individual characters. Not too sure what to think of the Doctor yet but the rest seem of good character. I like the technology addition as it turns out the Borg had developed some sort of “Stargate-type” type of escape device for the queen.
Last observation is that the broadcast version up here in Canada lasted 70 mins with commercials. This is the first time they went over the 60 min time slot and very happy they did because lots happened. Let’s hope Hugh and Elnor find an improbable escape!
OK bring on E7 – too bad there are only four more hours to go.
Please my friends, choose to live!

Oh, Sci-Fi Channel up here is playing TNG episode Family following Picard. Will go check it out.

I liked the use of the long distance gate in that it was a smart callback to technology we saw in Voyager, but that Voyager wasn’t able to successfully use.

As I’ve mentioned regarding the Slipstream drive, Voyager encountered many advanced technologies that the crew either didn’t understand or could adapt due to the limitations of the ship.

Dribbling these out makes sense. Starfleet and the Federation would keep the technology secret to avoid enemies getting them first. But of all their enemies, the Borg would be most likely to acquire (assimilate) these technologies because their territory is in the Delta Quadrant.

Chabon and Beyer seem to be seeing the Voyager technological harvest as an opportunity rather than a limitation for writers, much as they do canon.

Tiger2

Well said TG47!

And you make a good point over the endless moaning from people who said they didn’t want a post-Nemesis show because the technology would be ‘too magical’ in their view (yes because spore drives, black hole creating suits and time crystals in the 23rd century are all very grounded science ;)).

But just because the technology exists doesn’t mean everyone will just acquire it. Or that it would even be public knowledge. Ironically the spore drive proves both in spades. And what is great about this show is they don’t over do it with all the tech stuff; they present something new (like Dahj and Soji) but they present it in a way that its still very rare and unique. In other words they give us new things but they aren’t abusing it or present it as mass consumption.

What’s more funny is that we have seen way more advanced stuff on Discovery than we have seen on this show so far. For example, we haven’t seen a single communication hologram yet oddly. It’s still early of course but as you said the writers are doing a great job of taking all this crazy tech we know exists out there but presenting it in a conservative way. It’s the 24th century where there are so many advances and yet Picard still had to figure out a way just to get off of Earth. Not everyone has personal transporters in their homes that can whisk them off to Vulcan whenever they want (ala STID). But listening to some people you would expect that’s what the Federation would be like by now.

I’ve said this so many times for YEARS now, it doesn’t matter what century these shows or movies actually takes place in, it simply depends on the writers of those shows who makes them and what they want to present. The rest is pretty arbitrary because its all just FICTION at the end of the day. If someone decides they want to make holodecks in the 23rd century, believe me, they will find a way (wait you didn’t know that was originally based on classified Section 31 technology used for training? Well, now you do!) Same time, if they don’t want to show people in holodecks in the 24th century, guess what, they simply don’t have to show them.

And its oddly why we seen more advance tech in Discovery in the 23rd century than we have in Picard 150 years later.

ML31

The thing is, even if Hugh has up to this point kept that transport tech secret from the Romulans, they WILL find it eventually. That will give their struggling civilization the jump start they need to restore their Empire. I think it should be destroyed and hopefully Hugh will eventually do it.

Totally agree ML31.

Keeping that secret by powering down the translocation device, erasing the record of the destination, and resealing the chamber was a valid reason for Hugh to stay, and Elnor to protect him.

This was vital to Picard’s mission.

Tillsy

Utterly blown away by Picard’s trauma being back on a Borg cube – hats off guys that was some of the best Trek I’ve seen in this new generation, so well executed at every level. And that bonding between Hugh and Picard, my gosh that was fantastic. Really enjoyed this episode, and so did the wife and she’s not a sci-fi fan (but has watched all of TNG with me).

somethoughts

best episode by far A++++ They should have saved Hughs reveal for this episode as previous ones with him in it didnt do him justice. Fantastic episode, Picard looks and sounds like Picard again A++++

Wow!

Riveting. Excellence in everything.

I haven’t found Maja Vrvilo’s turns as director for Discovery have been its stronger outings, but her direction in this episode of Picard is sure-footed and nuanced in every moment.

Dr C

I really enjoyed this one (last week’s was a bit of a dip I thought, but it was back on track this week).

It turns out that “Best of Both Worlds” is the most important episode of Star Trek ever. Look at how it affected the TNG universe – we got later episodes of TNG (I.e. Hugh), we got the pilot (and setup for main character) on DS9, one of the most important characters on VOY had a similar “dessimilation” experience to Picard (and wolf 359 was referenced a few times) and of course First Contact.

That episode is a pivotal moment in the future history of the TNG era – and we’re still seeing it play out here.

Also, I loved the inclusion of the spatial trajector – I only watched that episode of voyager recently so that was a delicious little Easter egg.

I find Narek less irritating when he’s being “Romulan spy guy” than when he’s being “Soji’s boyfriend guy” too – and he was “spy guy” a lot this week.

Wasn’t a massive fan of the Elnor plot points, but I’ll live.

Looking forward to next week!

c d

This was better. Jurati is, especially after killing Maddox, still extremely annoying. And the idea of a character talking about having a superpower, especially in a society that condemns supermen, is jarringly 21st century. (For a minute, I thought I was watching another episode of “I Am Not Okay With This”!) But being jarringly 21st century is nothing new for this series.
That being said, the rest of the episode was not bad. Soji is somewhat less annoying, as is Narek. I like the conflict between his feelings for Soji and his assignment.
Stewart’s portrayal of Picard on the Borg cube was some of his best yet. The sense of fear and fraility was very believable and well done. It was refreshing that Hugh embraced him (literally), I half expected a rejection from Hugh, because so far these people don’t how to write, but this was done right. It’s about time.
And I expected Elnor to disobey and show up to save the day. Maybe it was cheesy, but I liked it.
Hopefully, they will continue the streak of good episodes (can you have a streak of one?) but I am cautiously pessimistic.

GreenEnvy22

The superpower line wasn’t her really claiming to have a superpower, it was just her way of saying she makes a lot of mistakes, and will make them even though she realizes that’s probably a bad idea at the time. Pretty common for most of us.

Yes, that is how it was intended to come across, but on reflection, I think it’s more than that simple human admission.

Given Jurati’s “psychiatric emergencies” , I’m more and more leaning into the idea that she is programmed and is in either a conscious oe unconscious fight with that coding.

Jay

I wonder if she also an android.

arnold

yes! she is! ;)

ML31

That actually does make sense…. Unfortunately it lifts too much from nuBSG for my taste.

Garth Lorca

Says the Terminator himself ;)

German Trekkie

I am a bit baffled that it could go over anyones head that the “Superpower“ dialogue is meant to be anything else than tongue-in-cheek ;)

Hey German Trekkie, while we all see Jurati was consciously speaking/flirting in a tongue-in-cheek style, there seems to be a double entendre.

Unconscious statements are another matter. What Jurati may be referring to may not be a simple human insight and admission, especially as we already have been made aware that she is exhibiting signs of psychiatric emergencies.

So, what’s she’s saying with ironic humour may actually be true.

Rob

Well in Japan they uploaded episode 7 in error… was a little confusion at first… “previously on Picard”.. .wtf.. Its since been pulled and now episode 6 is unavailable… Lets just say there are some more familiar characters in episode 7!! And some good looking PIZZZA!!!

Nachum

I found the “thirty-seven months” sequence to be really, really creepy.

Speaking of which, anyone recognize the species of the doll? Targ?

Bill

A highly stylized toy targ is what it looks like to me.

Bob

I’m probably gonna get some criticism for this, I’m not settling into this show as I thought I would. I like the idea of the show, although it’s slow burning, but I do think Picard should have just had a cameo role maybe leaving his character on a high note.

German Trekkie

Bob, this is perfectly fine. Not everyone can like everything (i am not a big fan of VOY and ENT but some episodes are mildly entertaining).
I am a bit sad you fear to be critizised. I know the tone can get harsh around here (as in other message boards, youtube etc.).
But i have the Impressionen its often the ones who say things like “If you like this, you cannot be a fan“ or “this BS is objectively not Star Trek“ and so on, who get heat. Not the ones who thoughtfully state their subjective opinion.

Bob

Well, I’m no stranger to criticism (or worse) from people who say they are fans, I was once told to -kill- myself simply because I didn’t hate Discovery.

Marja

LOL yeah Bob, some fans are real asshats, sorry you got that stuff from them.

I think Picard will go out a hero. When, remains to be seen.

Jay

Nemesis was not a high note for Jean Luc. This show for sure will be the high note.

ML31

I feel like Nemsis was indeed a high note and a pretty darn good finale for the TNG group.

Danpaine

As a longtime visitor here, I’m with you, Bob. The show isn’t resonating with me nearly as much as I was hoping it would, but I’m sticking with it, at least for this season. No harm, no foul. I do believe Picard will find peace and redemption at the end of the show’s run – it’s really the only way they can/should go with it.

Andy

For nostalgia its cool to see Picard’s computer has an LCARS display, but its odd no other display on the ship is in that format?

Definitely the best episode of the series for me so far, Sir Pat really nailed it. You felt Picard’s trauma from the Borg and it took me right back to Best of Both Worlds and First Contact.

Captain Hackett

It melt my heart when Picard and Hugh hugged each other. <3 :)

Garth Lorca

Very good episode. Many outstanding scenes and ideas and LIGHTYEARS better than last week’s travesty. Dark, spooky but still humane and heart-warming. I absolutely loved:

– Picard looking through the 3D display on Locutus and his entire arrival at the Borg Cube
– Picard meeting Hugh
– The 37 months moment
– Picard meeting the dissimilated victims

I have no problems with the kiss but the context seemed strange: why do you play with your soccer ball shirtless on a space ship? The only reason for this scenes was to equalize on sexiness between both genders but it felt awkward…

Marja

Garth, maybe Rios just likes playing shirtless? Maybe he gets sweaty? Maybe to attract Jurati’s attention bc something about her is bugging him at the back of his mind and he’s hoping being near her will help him figure it out? Maybe this Rios is a hologram investigator[someone noted he had no scar on his right shoulder, although he had scars in other spots]?

I will be delighted to get the answers.

I took the shirtless workout as just another one of Rios’ eccentricities that he likes to assert because it’s his ship and he’s used to being alone.

I’ve been reflecting quite a bit on the Borg as victims, and Picard’s psychological journey.

This series has shown Picard as someone who comes from privilege and power in a privileged society, but his interactions with Seven and Hugh have brought him to terms with the fact that he is part of and representative of a deeply marginalized minority: the ex-Borg.

Wow.

Marja

Excellent and thanks for bringing that out TG47. Will add depth to my next viewing!

Cubed

Jonathan Del Arco delivered heartfelt, genuine acting as Hugh in this episode. That hug to Picard had something extra; his body language when showing the reclaimed Borg; the delivery of his lines…

The man truly is a great actor. Like Seven’s post-VOY persona, Hugh has new depth and presence post-TNG — something which Mr. Del Arco translated well from script to actual portrayal in this latest episode.

I really hope there’s a way to keep Hugh around for future episodes and seasons…

Marja

I really loved Sir Pat’s acting in this episode, haunted by his experience of bodily invasion and his torture of killing friends and colleagues in Starfleet at Wolf 359. So well done.

Others have pointed out the many great aspects of this episode so I won’t repeat them here … BUT ….
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does anyone have a clue about the significance of orchids in this show?

Orchids are beautiful … they have no scent … air-root plants that grow attached to trees, in warm rainforests … some have said they look female ….

I suppose the symbolism will knock me upside the head eventually, LOL.

I like Michael Chabon’s classical references and dramatic structuring, so I’m sure he has a great reason ….

Thanks Marja. It’s great to know that someone else is wondering about the orchids!

Like what is up with them? Is it just symbolism? Are they a synthetic device? Both?

From the first scene in Dajh’s apartment in the premiere, the orchids are clearly supposed to be a clue.

The weird, unnatural way the stamens pull back when Dahj’s boyfriend moves to the replicator just before the Khat Vash arrive is given a close up. In the second episode, the orchids are still there when Picard and Laris search the room.

Fred Javelina

One theory floating around: It’s a Delta Quadrant orchid, the same kind that created Tuvix. Maybe Soji / Dahj’s creation involved merging synthetic and humanoid DNA? Also, the fact that they “needed to be created in pairs” might recall the VOY episode where B’Ellana was split in two by the Vidiians. One humanoid split, combined with a synthetic component (also split), to form two entire entities. Or it could be down to how Maddox thought he could recreate Data from only a portion of his positronic net – in theory they might be quantum-entangled and thus could be recreated, much as even a portion of a hologram contains the entire image? So Soji and Dahj might be a prototype proof-of-concept of how to do that.

It still doesn’t explain Data’s painting, though. Unless we get all timey-wimey…

Bees

Unless I’m missing something I haven’t seen anyone here mention when Hugh and Picard entering sojis quarters the computer voice in the background is issuing a warning of detection of chronometric particles….

For me this show puts Trek back on track. I wanted something new and fresh and this show does it for me. Patrick knocks it out of the park.

bassmaster22

There’s a lot of fat to trim from this series and the events of this episode should have been happening three episodes in, not six.

In the end, there’s a case to be made that this is a five episode arc, not a ten. Sorry but I’m not sure if the writers deserve an award for stretching it out this far or to be fired.